# a new chinese 7x7 with VCUBE quality



## daniel0731ex (Dec 3, 2009)

i recently found a review on the mf8 forum about a new 7x7 knockoff. here's the link: http://bbs.mf8.com.cn/viewthread.php?tid=43268&extra=page=1
this cube is manufactered by LanLan, but the actual retail company is still unknown.

(this is actually the same as the knockoff Dazzler and Fake ILLusion i posted here recently)


according to the review, this 7x7 has a very high quality that could compete with the v-cubes. in addition to the impressive quality, they made several improvements on the mechanisms such as anti-pop design, adjustable screws, and corner caps.


pros:
V-CUBE-like quality
Very cheap
adjustable screws
*Corner caps*
easy-to-open-and-fits/stays-on-nicely center caps
high quality plastic
*anti-pop design*
wide chioce of color (white, panda, colored plastic with black corner&center, colored plastic with white corner&center)

Cons:
no black cubes
right-out-of-box doesn't cut corners as good as broken-in vcubes


UPDATE:


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## Muesli (Dec 3, 2009)

Regardless of it's quality, it's still a KO.


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## iSpinz (Dec 3, 2009)

Where to buy?


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## daniel0731ex (Dec 3, 2009)

not released yet.


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## ElderKingpin (Dec 3, 2009)

just buy v-cube cubes, they are of excellent quality, and i saw on their site they are making bigger cubes and will make 3X3X3 cubes


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## Speedy McFastfast (Dec 3, 2009)

They're making bigger cubes now? Any idea when they'll be out? And I doubt V Cubes 3x3 would be able to compete with the DIYs we have now...


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## OregonTrail (Dec 3, 2009)

Speedy McFastfast said:


> They're making bigger cubes now? Any idea when they'll be out? And I doubt V Cubes 3x3 would be able to compete with the DIYs we have now...



If they have such great cubies on a 7x7 imagine what they would do at the 3x3 scale. It's possible that it could be the greatest cube of all time.


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## Cyrus C. (Dec 3, 2009)

Speedy McFastfast said:


> They're making bigger cubes now? Any idea when they'll be out? And I doubt V Cubes 3x3 would be able to compete with the DIYs we have now...



There are a couple threads on this.


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## mr.onehanded (Dec 3, 2009)

I'll probably get these becuase I'm going to boycott v-cube becuase they refused to send me a center for a 7x7x7, which is pretty ridiculous considering the price and that I'm fine with paying more than what is necessary for the part and shipping. There is no reason for me to pay three times as much for a product when the company isn't even going to send me one plastic part that broke because of (in my opinion) poor design. Basically what I'm saying is buy three knock offs, then you'll have ample spare parts if it breaks, and won't have to deal with v-cube.


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## Cheese_Board (Dec 3, 2009)

I just have one question. Why do you keep advertising KOs?


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## Me Myself & Pi (Dec 3, 2009)

Yeah, Daniel. It's generating the wrong kind of interest. Please stop!


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## joey (Dec 4, 2009)

We need to be aware of the KOs.

OMG Speedy Mcfastfast just posted, made my day.


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## Ashmnafa (Dec 4, 2009)

I will never buy KO V-cubes for two reasons.

1. Its a KO.

2. I almost lost a piece in MichaelP's KO 6x6.


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## ElderKingpin (Dec 4, 2009)

so until then. pester v-cube to speed up the making of additional v-cubes (specifically the 3x3x3 for me though)


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## aronpm (Dec 4, 2009)

Me Myself & Pi said:


> Yeah, Daniel. It's generating the wrong kind of interest. Please stop!



Sorry, but he created this thread as a way to show that another company is producing a 7x7x7. I do not believe his intention was to say, "These are better than V-cubes, buy these instead." It's merely a comparison intended to show people what choices they have. They can get a cheaper, Chinese-made 7x7x7, or they can buy a more expensive, Greek-made 7x7x7. 

What you want to do is stop him (and by extension others) from learning about and openly discussing alternatives. Your morals are not important when it comes to purchases made by other people. It's not right to censor something that you think is wrong, because a few people might be interested in it. If you want a community that censors knockoffs, you have Twistypuzzles.

I do not want to start a discussion about whether knockoffs are 'right' or 'wrong'. I do, however, think you should stop complaining whenever knockoffs are mentioned.



ElderKingpin said:


> and i saw on their site they are making bigger cubes and will make 3X3X3 cubes


 They've been saying that for a long time. As far as I know, they are not producing those cubes, and they aren't selling them online.


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## daniel0731ex (Dec 4, 2009)

Cheese_Board said:


> I just have one question. Why do you keep advertising KOs?



alright then, i'll stop advertising for KOs, but i'd still post neutral information about them.


it's not right to shut-out information from people just because it is about unethical things, as you cannot deny its existence. there is no reason to make people ignorant of what is happening. you cannot stop people from knowing what is going on in the other side of the world, nor could you stop me from revealing the truth.


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## daniel0731ex (Dec 4, 2009)

aronpm said:


> Me Myself & Pi said:
> 
> 
> > Yeah, Daniel. It's generating the wrong kind of interest. Please stop!
> ...




haha, you ninja'd me. but you did express my point better though


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## panyan (Dec 4, 2009)

Me Myself & Pi said:


> Yeah, Daniel. It's generating the wrong kind of interest. Please stop!



but is also exposing us to what KO's look like and where KO's are sold and so educate us in avoiding them


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## Siraj A. (Dec 4, 2009)

joey said:


> OMG Speedy Mcfastfast just posted, made my day.



OMG!


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## PatrickJameson (Dec 4, 2009)

ElderKingpin said:


> just buy v-cube cubes, they are of excellent quality, and i saw on their site they are making bigger cubes and will make 3X3X3 cubes





ElderKingpin said:


> so until then. pester v-cube to speed up the making of additional v-cubes (specifically the 3x3x3 for me though)



Why would you want a V-3 more than other V-cubes? There are more than enough very good 3x3s out there. Also, pestering V-cubes to make more V-cubes isn't going to help anything.


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## Hyprul 9-ty2 (Dec 4, 2009)

China cube cheappp.. Mmmm me likey.


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## V-te (Dec 4, 2009)

daniel0731ex said:


> Cheese_Board said:
> 
> 
> > I just have one question. Why do you keep advertising KOs?
> ...



+1. Not only that, sometimes the manufacturer just wants to keep selling the same things, and other Chinese companies at least make progress in the knockoffs they make.


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## esquimalt1 (Dec 4, 2009)

Me Myself & Pi said:


> Yeah, Daniel. It's generating the wrong kind of interest. Please stop!








@3:55 in the video. You are saying that you shouldn't respect a Rubik's brand cube? The only 3x3x3 cube that isn't a knock off? And now you're "fighting against knockoffs"?


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## rachmaninovian (Dec 4, 2009)

mm&pi: i understand your concerns, but this is not twistypuzzles....


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## daniel0731ex (Dec 4, 2009)

yeah i think some people are really influenced by twistypuzzles nonsense now.

i heard they bann youtube on their forum because there are too many info about KOs on there?


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## ElderKingpin (Dec 4, 2009)

i was joking...


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## blade740 (Dec 4, 2009)

I think more information is a good thing. Otherwise, we'll just get a post in a few months (not that we won't anyway) asking if the cubes are legit/any good/etc. At least this way there's an informative post to link to.


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## idpapro (Dec 4, 2009)

esquimalt1 said:


> Me Myself & Pi said:
> 
> 
> > Yeah, Daniel. It's generating the wrong kind of interest. Please stop!
> ...



Wow, you are very observant, and PI if you own a DIY cube or any other cube that isnt Rubik's, then you have a knockoff


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## qqwref (Dec 4, 2009)

As a forum with some of the most knowledgeable and fast cubers in the world, I think it's important that we (as a community) keep on top of the happenings in cubing, whether they be really good or really bad. Sure, topics like this might be giving free advertising to the knockoff makers, but they're also giving information to anyone in the community who might be interested in it. From the standpoint of the community, I think it's a positive thing - it's true that knockoff makers get supported, but on the other hand many people are given the opportunity to get cubes that they want and otherwise wouldn't know about.


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## daniel0731ex (Dec 4, 2009)

yes, because this forum is about *speedsolving* the rubrik'd cube, not about twisty puzzles.



@ pie

btw, your pyraminx is prabably one of those taiwanese knockoffs of meffert's pyraminxs in the eighties, which uwn mefferts mentioned here:




> Puzzle News as of March 01. 2009 - 777 cube and Holey cube survey now completed!!!
> 
> 
> Hi all!
> ...


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## puzzleaddict (Dec 4, 2009)

I feel that its kind of hard to say you can't post KO threads....when the very advertisements of this site (for Ebay and such) have listings for KO cubes :confused:


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## daniel0731ex (Dec 4, 2009)

puzzleaddict said:


> I feel that its kind of hard to say you can't post KO threads....when the very advertisements of this site (for Ebay and such) have listings for KO cubes :confused:



well obviously it's because they payed the advertising fee, which means that if we post reviews about KOs without paying money they will be deleted

am i right?


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## HowSuneIsNow (Dec 4, 2009)

thanks for the useful info Daniel

I don't think improving on an existing design is a KO. I would call that inovation. That's what verdes did with their 5x5x5.


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## pwndnoobcuber (Dec 4, 2009)

i heard that Mefferts are making "V-Cubes" is that true? i was wondering because Uwe Meffert is very against KO's


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## EE-Cuber (Dec 4, 2009)

ElderKingpin said:


> just buy v-cube cubes, they are of excellent quality, and i saw on their site they are making bigger cubes and will make 3X3X3 cubes



Yes but why buy what sounds like now an inferior design? I dont have stock in Verdes company so too bad for Verdes.


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## d4m4s74 (Dec 4, 2009)

if this KO has adjustable screws, does that mean Verdes will have to add screws to his original so they don't lose costumers?


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## Me Myself & Pi (Dec 4, 2009)

esquimalt1 said:


> @3:55 in the video. You are saying that you shouldn't respect a Rubik's brand cube? The only 3x3x3 cube that isn't a knock off? And now you're "fighting against knockoffs"?


Here's something I found from this website:


> Under recent changes in the laws, in the United States patents are now granted for a term of 20 years from the date of application (14 years for design patents). Different rules apply for patents covered by applications filed before June 8, 1995. Patents may be extended only by a special act of Congress (except for certain pharmaceutical patents).
> 
> After expiration of the term of the patent, the person holding the patent loses the right to exclude others from utilizing the invention, so that anyone can go ahead and *make use of the invention without permission* of the patent holder.


So 3x3's & pyraminxs AREN'T KO's anymore. But as for the cubes that are KO's, why should we even discuss them? They're made illegally, they hurt the original inventors who built them, & they give intensives to future inventors to not produce their own puzzles. Can't you guys see that logic? If you can't, you I'll just leave it at that. I don't wish to argue this anymore.


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## dunpeal2064 (Dec 4, 2009)

umm... we were discussing marajuana for like a week, and thats illegal... In my opinion, I think they should be discussed. they might be KO's now, but verdes needs some competition! i can see the negative side of it as well... but i dont think it should be up to a few people to decide what everyone knows about. thats just the way i feel about it though


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## Mike Hughey (Dec 4, 2009)

Me Myself & Pi said:


> So *3x3's* & pyraminxs *AREN'T KO's anymore.*



I agree with you, but Seven Towns (and their lawyers) don't. They try to enforce illegality of knockoffs by virtue of copyright and trademark infringement, instead of patents, so from their perspective your argument doesn't hold water. And they have convinced some judges of their opinion.


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## Lux Aeterna (Dec 4, 2009)

Me Myself & Pi said:


> So 3x3's & pyraminxs AREN'T KO's anymore. But as for the cubes that are KO's, why should we even discuss them? They're made illegally, they hurt the original inventors who built them, & they give intensives to future inventors to not produce their own puzzles. Can't you guys see that logic? If you can't, you I'll just leave it at that. I don't wish to argue this anymore.



This.

The primary difference between the twistypuzzles forum and this forum is not censorship, it's maturity, from what I've seen on these boards. This is a forum where (mostly kids) like doing a specific task as fast as they can, so they're interested in any hardware that allows them to complete said task faster. Twistypuzzles is a forum where (mostly adults) are interested in the design and production of mechanical puzzles, and hence they care about the legal and ethical issues surrounding said puzzles.

Don't get me wrong, I like fiddling around with my plastic toys quickly just as much as the next guy and find this forum a useful resource, otherwise I wouldn't be a member here, but it's a shame that most people here don't see beyond buying toys on the internet. Twistypuzzles isn't a place where people are sticklers about legal issues, it's a place where people have informed opinions about ethical issues.


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## Escher (Dec 4, 2009)

Me Myself & Pi said:


> So 3x3's & pyraminxs AREN'T KO's anymore. But as for the cubes that are KO's, _why should we even discuss them_? They're made illegally, they hurt the original inventors who built them, & they give incentives to future inventors to not produce their own puzzles. Can't you guys see that logic? If you can't, you I'll just leave it at that. I don't wish to argue this anymore.



I hope that the speedsolving forum will _never_ censor discussion of KO puzzles. I'd much rather I knew exactly what was and what wasn't a KO from sites like popbuying, dealextreme etc, rather than just having to guess because the puzzle forums remove or censor all discussion of them. In fact in that kind of censored environment, I would just buy whatever I felt like.

Just so you know, since they are made in China, where they do not uphold foreign patent laws, they _aren't_ 'made illegally'.



Lux Aeterna said:


> This.
> 
> The primary difference between the twistypuzzles forum and this forum is not censorship, it's maturity, from what I've seen on these boards. This is a forum where (mostly kids) like doing a specific task as fast as they can, so they're interested in any hardware that allows them to complete said task faster. Twistypuzzles is a forum where (mostly adults) are interested in the design and production of mechanical puzzles, and hence they care about the legal and ethical issues surrounding said puzzles.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I like fiddling around with my plastic toys quickly just as much as the next guy and find this forum a useful resource, otherwise I wouldn't be a member here, but it's a shame that most people here don't see beyond buying toys on the internet. Twistypuzzles isn't a place where people are sticklers about legal issues, it's a place where people have informed opinions about ethical issues.



I don't understand your point at all.

Twistypuzzles is more mature, therefore we don't talk about KOs.
Speedsolving is more immature, therefore you shouldn't talk about KOs.

Surely it should be:

Twistypuzzles is more mature, and can recognise the difference between 'genuine' and 'KO', therefore we don't talk about KOs.
Speedsolving is more immature, so the majority of visitors cannot tell the difference between 'genuine' and 'KO', therefore we should educate them about what is and what isn't a KO and why buying them is discouraged.

!?


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## daniel0731ex (Dec 4, 2009)

yeah i think the knockoff issue is more about ethics than law. it becomes weak if you use whether if a puzzle have valid patent or not, as most tony fisher's puzzles are not patented.


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## daniel0731ex (Dec 4, 2009)

Lux Aeterna said:


> Me Myself & Pi said:
> 
> 
> > So 3x3's & pyraminxs AREN'T KO's anymore. But as for the cubes that are KO's, why should we even discuss them? They're made illegally, they hurt the original inventors who built them, & they give intensives to future inventors to not produce their own puzzles. Can't you guys see that logic? If you can't, you I'll just leave it at that. I don't wish to argue this anymore.
> ...



+1

that's exactly what my point is.


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## DavidWoner (Dec 4, 2009)

Escher said:


> Lux Aeterna said:
> 
> 
> > This.
> ...



How can people on twistypuzzles have "informed opinions" when all of the information is being deleted? Censoring information about KOs undoubtedly does more harm than good. As I see it there are two kinds of people who buys KOs:

People who don't care: They are just looking for the cheapest puzzle. They don't care if something is a KO or not, they just want to save money. So lets say they are searching for cubes and find the KO 7x7. They either think that 1) they found a KO 7x7, and buy it because its cheap, 2) they found a legit v-7 for a really good price, and buy it because it is cheap. Censorship has no effect on these people.

People who don't know: These are people who do not support KOs, but are not very informed. Lets say they also come across the KO 7x7. If all the information about KOs was censored, they would have no way of knowing this was a KO, and would purchase it, thinking they were supporting v-cubes. However, when the information is public, this person is able to make a truly _informed decision_ and not purchase the KO.

So in a way, speedsolving is doing more to stop the sale of KOs than tp is.

This may seem like a strange comparison, but I am reminded of abstinence-only sex education. The goal is to prevent teen pregnancies and the spread of diseases by just saying "Just don't have sex. Don't do it. Nope, just don't do it" And what you end up with is a bunch of kids who are uneducated about safesex practices, resulting in even more pregnancies and diseases.

I guess what I'm saying is that education is the best course of action, as ignorance always leads to problems.


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## rookie (Dec 4, 2009)

i'd buy a cheap ko in a heart beat if it was as good as the v7


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## dunpeal2064 (Dec 4, 2009)

I will forever think that Hillary Clinton runs this site if discussion of KO's gets banned.

Cencorship is not the way! Information is! if you think KO's are horrible then tell us about it so we'll KNOW. but hiding it is just like sheltering a child... it often goes more in the other direction.


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## qqwref (Dec 4, 2009)

Me Myself & Pi said:


> But as for the cubes that are KO's, why should we even discuss them? They're made illegally, they hurt the original inventors who built them, & they give intensives to future inventors to not produce their own puzzles. Can't you guys see that logic?


Your argument is invalid: just because something is illegal or unethical does not mean it should never be discussed. We've had discussions about pot, bullying, religious belief, politics, etc. in the past and just because one person thinks the topic is unethical does not mean nobody should be allowed to talk about it. Woner's comparison to abstinence-only sex education is an apt one: people are going to be buying cheap Chinese cubes (and have sex) whether you tell them they should do it or should not do it (or whether you ignore the subject, as information does travel). So if they're going to buy the KOs anyway (eventually), why not at least educate people?

I guess the most moral approach would be to ask everyone making a KO topic to add a disclaimer in red saying that purchasing KOs hurts the real inventors, etc. etc. I imagine this would get annoying after a while, but the information would all be out there and nobody would really be able to complain that the topic is only there to advertise the KO products.



dunpeal2064 said:


> I will forever think that Hillary Clinton runs this site if discussion of KO's gets banned.


You think Hillary Clinton runs twistypuzzles?


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## Dirk BerGuRK (Dec 4, 2009)

daniel0731ex said:


> *anti-pop design*



I always get a kick out of that.


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## puzzleaddict (Dec 4, 2009)

dunpeal2064 said:


> I will forever think that Hillary Clinton runs this site if discussion of KO's gets banned.
> 
> Cencorship is not the way! Information is! if you think KO's are horrible then tell us about it so we'll KNOW. but hiding it is just like sheltering a child... it often goes more in the other direction.



KO discussion is not bad, its when you advertise for the KO's that it becomes bad. You can have a KO discussion without posting links to KO's. Twistypuzzles has plenty of KO discussions that are allowed.


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## Cheese_Board (Dec 4, 2009)

puzzleaddict said:


> dunpeal2064 said:
> 
> 
> > I will forever think that Hillary Clinton runs this site if discussion of KO's gets banned.
> ...



+1


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## Me Myself & Pi (Dec 5, 2009)

Ugh! Can't resist! Must continue debate!

These 3x3's aren't doing the harm here. (Any cuber starts out with a Rubik's 3x3 anyway, & then moves on to buying better cubes.) They had 20 years to make a very good profit from them. It's the KO's of the newer puzzles that have been coming out that we need to worry about. Like the V-Cubes, Void Cube, Floppy Cube, etc... How would any of you guys like to have invented & produced a puzzle. Then a company started making KO's of it. Would any of you be happy if people started posting topics on popular forum sites about the KO's, & possibly how better they are? Here you're trying to pay off your initial design costs before you can even start thinking about producing better puzzles! (In the case of the V-Cubes guys, please just be patient for the new & better puzzles.)



daniel0731ex said:


> it's not right to shut-out information from people just because it is about unethical things, as you cannot deny its existence. there is no reason to make people ignorant of what is happening. you cannot stop people from knowing what is going on in the other side of the world, nor could you stop me from revealing the truth.





panyan said:


> but is also exposing us to what KO's look like and where KO's are sold and so educate us in avoiding them





Escher said:


> I'd much rather I knew exactly what was and what wasn't a KO from sites like popbuying, dealextreme etc...





DavidWoner said:


> People who don't know: These are people who do not support KOs, but are not very informed. Lets say they also come across the KO 7x7. If all the information about KOs was censored, they would have no way of knowing this was a KO, and would purchase it, thinking they were supporting v-cubes...
> 
> I guess what I'm saying is that education is the best course of action, as ignorance always leads to problems.





dunpeal2064 said:


> Cencorship is not the way! Information is!


Guys, I'm not for completely shrouding KO's. But why not just say, "There are KO's of V-Cubes. So if you a see a 6x6 or a 7x7, don't buy unless it has a V-Cube Logo!". We don't need to say that,


daniel0731ex said:


> a new chinese 7x7 with VCUBE quality


is coming out. I mean, just look at some of the comments already in this topic:


Hyprul 9-ty2 said:


> China cube cheappp.. Mmmm me likey.





rookie said:


> i'd buy a cheap ko in a heart beat if it was as good as the v7





mr.onehanded said:


> I'll probably get these becuase I'm going to boycott v-cube becuase they refused to send me a center for a 7x7x7...


(Oh, & sorry to hear that Mr.OneHanded. If it makes things any better, I can send you one of my extra center caps for $2 for shipping if you live in the US. I've got a yellow & black one.) Now, in certain cases, I feel it's best to inform people on what are KO's on websites like Cube4You. That's a very popular site & people are going to see the puzzles there regardless if they heard about them here or not. But we don't need to give people information about KO V-Cubes on other, less popular, sites. (Oh, & just for the record, DealExtream seems to sell of lot of KO's. I just stay away from the website completely!) Mr. Verdes & his son worked way to long on producing these great puzzles to be treated this. We need to respect that!

For those who haven't seen it, I've made a video about this. I go into detail about everything I've said there:
[youtube]<object width="873" height="525"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/NRGxTC5xOCQ&hl=en_US&fs=1&color1=0x006699&color2=0x54abd6&border=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/NRGxTC5xOCQ&hl=en_US&fs=1&color1=0x006699&color2=0x54abd6&border=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="873" height="525"></embed></object>[/youtube]


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## daniel0731ex (Dec 5, 2009)

UPDATE:
found it on dealextreme:
http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.32043
http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.32044
http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.32045


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## Hyprul 9-ty2 (Dec 5, 2009)

Wheres the normal one!?!


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## MichaelP. (Dec 5, 2009)

Ashmnafa said:


> I will never buy KO V-cubes for two reasons.
> 
> 1. Its a KO.
> 
> 2. I almost lost a piece in MichaelP's KO 6x6.



If I wasn't aware that I was getting a knock off, and by buying it, I made someone else NOT get ANY V-cube knock offs, am I rectified?


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## dunpeal2064 (Dec 5, 2009)

I can definately see not advertising for the KO's. I suppose i misunderstood, I thought the topic was eliminating the discussion. I completely agree that if a copyright is in place, we should steer people in the right direction. 

but as long as we are making the information available. =)

now.... would it be improper to buy a v-cube and then buy a KO for spare parts? this seems important if people are having problems getting spare pieces. In which case these KO's could still be of some use. (aside the fact that they are way cheaper in the first place)


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## rookie (Dec 5, 2009)

daniel0731ex said:


> UPDATE:
> found it on dealextreme:
> http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.32043
> http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.32044
> http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.32045


LOLOLOL thats such a nice reply to memyselfandpi


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## Hyprul 9-ty2 (Dec 5, 2009)

dunpeal2064 said:


> I can definately see not advertising for the KO's. I suppose i misunderstood, I thought the topic was eliminating the discussion. I completely agree that if a copyright is in place, we should steer people in the right direction.
> 
> but as long as we are making the information available. =)
> 
> now.... would it be improper to buy a v-cube and then buy a KO for spare parts? this seems important if people are having problems getting spare pieces. In which case these KO's could still be of some use. (aside the fact that they are way cheaper in the first place)


I don't think the parts would mesh together well for some reason, I have no idea why I think that way. Maybe different plastic quality. Hmmm:confused:


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## dunpeal2064 (Dec 5, 2009)

that would make sense. I don't own a v-cube (or a KO version) so it seems possible that it wouldn't work.

also.... i saw that pillowed 6x6 KO... or is it a ko? because i didnt know of a pillowed 6x6 anywhere else...


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## Hyprul 9-ty2 (Dec 5, 2009)

Pillowed 6x6 is definitely a knockoff, V-Cube hasn't started producing those yet.
I want a pillowed cube


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## Tim Major (Dec 5, 2009)

Me Myself & Pi said:


> So 3x3's & pyraminxs AREN'T KO's anymore. But as for the cubes that are KO's, why should we even discuss them? They're made illegally, they hurt the original inventors who built them, & they give intensives to future inventors to not produce their own puzzles. Can't you guys see that logic? If you can't, you I'll just leave it at that. I don't wish to argue this anymore.



I've been talking to Mefferts for awhile through email, and somehow I mentioned a Cube4you pyraminx. In response,
"Just for your info, the Pyraminx was an illegal copy."
So Uwe and Ulrich still think they're illegal copies.


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## Lux Aeterna (Dec 5, 2009)

rookie said:


> LOLOLOL thats such a nice reply to memyselfandpi



It is? Why is that funny? It just says "oh hey you took the time to post a good explanation of your point of view, but i really dont care". Real cool...

Also. Fun fact. Twistypuzzles does NOT delete all posts about KOs and stifle discussion. Twistypuzzles deletes links to the sale of KO puzzles. That's quite different, and for good reason. There's a difference between clarifying what does and does not constitute a legitimate product (this is fine) and directly facilitating the purchase of illegitimate products (which is not fine).

If you start a new thread over there arguing about why you think KOs are acceptable, sure, you're going to get rocks thrown at you, but that's NOT because people there aren't willing to talk openly and share information. It's because chances are there are literally dozens of threads already that say exactly the same thing you did that you could have just skimmed instead, and it's irritating to have a board cluttered with unnecessary threads with no real content. On the other hand, if you're making a thread over there because you're legitimately misinformed/confused/whatever and just want to know more about the issue, you STILL shouldn't be making a thread, because all your questions have been answered hundreds of times in other threads that you're just too lazy to search for.

It's a simple ethical issue, with a simple answer. Either you care about the issue, or you don't care. In the former case, there's no argument to have in the first place, you just do the right thing, and in the latter case, there's no point to arguing, as it just frustrates everyone involved.


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## daniel0731ex (Dec 5, 2009)

but they censor the names of the company and reviews about them. now THAT's odd.


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## StachuK1992 (Dec 5, 2009)

Me Myself & Pi said:


> Guys, I'm not for completely shrouding KO's. But why not just say, "There are KO's of V-Cubes. So if you a see a 6x6 or a 7x7, don't buy unless it has a V-Cube Logo!"


Because that's ********.
In that case, don't eat a chicken sandwich unless it's in a "Chik-fil-a" box, and don't buy a 3x3 that's not made by Seventowns.
Without diversity, there will be no advancement.


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## brunson (Dec 5, 2009)

Stachuk1992 said:


> Me Myself & Pi said:
> 
> 
> > Guys, I'm not for completely shrouding KO's. But why not just say, "There are KO's of V-Cubes. So if you a see a 6x6 or a 7x7, don't buy unless it has a V-Cube Logo!"
> ...


That's a ******** analogy. Chik-fil-a didn't invent a chicken after no one else had been able to come up with a chicken for 30 years after the first bird was invented. The market would be served by alternate implementations of the larger cubes, but these companies have simply stolen Verdes' work and imagination for their own profit. If their "innovations" were novel enough, they could file a derivative patent, but they aren't.


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## daniel0731ex (Dec 5, 2009)

updated some pictures to generate the wrong kind of interest.


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## rookie (Dec 5, 2009)

Lux Aeterna said:


> rookie said:
> 
> 
> > LOLOLOL thats such a nice reply to memyselfandpi
> ...


thats why its funny...


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## StachuK1992 (Dec 5, 2009)

brunson said:


> Stachuk1992 said:
> 
> 
> > Me Myself & Pi said:
> ...


Chik-fil-a actually did invent the chicken sandwich. So the analogy is similar to 
chicken = plastic
sandwich = cube
Sure, it's a tad sketchy, but it makes a point.

And yes, direct copies are bad. I'm not disagreeing with that. What I don't like is when I see people wanting to ban things like DIY cubes, which are obviously completely different from the original cubes.


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## Cheese_Board (Dec 5, 2009)

Stachuk1992 said:


> brunson said:
> 
> 
> > Stachuk1992 said:
> ...



Even if Chik-fil-a invented the chicken sandwich, they didn't spend thousands on a patent to prevent the idea from being copied.


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## Hyprul 9-ty2 (Dec 6, 2009)

Stop arguing and filling the thread with dumb stuff.


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## daniel0731ex (Dec 6, 2009)

Hyprul 9-ty2 said:


> Stop arguing and filling the thread with dumb stuff.



like chicken sandwich?


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## endless_akatsuki (Dec 6, 2009)

daniel0731ex said:


> UPDATE:
> found it on dealextreme:
> http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.32043
> http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.32044
> http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.32045



WIN! LMAO

The thing is, people will be themselves (obviously), and so the people that buy KOs just get pissed off at the people telling them not to, and so they will buy more to spite the "good" people.


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## rookie (Dec 6, 2009)

yea lol... ill buy more for the people that cant


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## esquimalt1 (Dec 6, 2009)

ZB_FTW!!! said:


> Me Myself & Pi said:
> 
> 
> > So 3x3's & pyraminxs AREN'T KO's anymore. But as for the cubes that are KO's, why should we even discuss them? They're made illegally, they hurt the original inventors who built them, & they give intensives to future inventors to not produce their own puzzles. Can't you guys see that logic? If you can't, you I'll just leave it at that. I don't wish to argue this anymore.
> ...



Hmm, I wonder how that is.


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## Speedy McFastfast (Dec 6, 2009)

Siraj A. said:


> joey said:
> 
> 
> > OMG Speedy Mcfastfast just posted, made my day.
> ...



Lol, hi guys. So im guessing KOs have been a problem lately? I havent checked up on the cubing world lately.


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## Hyprul 9-ty2 (Dec 6, 2009)

Speedy McFastfast said:


> Siraj A. said:
> 
> 
> > joey said:
> ...


Its only a problem if you want it to be


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## Tim Major (Dec 6, 2009)

I'm fine with KO's. To start something new, should cubes that have patents, but have been knocked off anyway, be allowed in competition? I mean, technically the cubes are against the law.


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## Hyprul 9-ty2 (Dec 6, 2009)

Ignoring all ethical aspects,

3m)	All puzzle and sticker brands are allowed, as long as the puzzles comply with the other WCA regulations.

So unless that specific competition/person in charge disallows the use of knock off puzzles, I don't see any problems. I'd love to see a pillowed 6x6 being used to break the WR XD


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## DavidWoner (Dec 6, 2009)

Hyprul 9-ty2 said:


> So unless that specific competition/person in charge disallows the use of knock off puzzles, I don't see any problems. I'd love to see a pillowed 6x6 being used to break the WR XD



Won't happen, because pillowed cubes are lame.


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## Hyprul 9-ty2 (Dec 6, 2009)

Pillowed cubes > u


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## xb27 (Dec 6, 2009)

If the KO cubes getting better than the original one , its unfair for the cuber who support the original inventor. I think its OK to know some information of this. But if we want a better KO cube , we should 
BUY BOTH KO AND V-CUBE AT ONCE!!!


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## panyan (Dec 6, 2009)

Me Myself & Pi said:


> But as for the cubes that are KO's, why should we even discuss them?



because this is a cubing forum and so we can discuss all puzzles and the solving of those puzzles, regardless of where they came from and who they "hurt"


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## riffz (Dec 6, 2009)

qqwref said:


> Me Myself & Pi said:
> 
> 
> > But as for the cubes that are KO's, why should we even discuss them? They're made illegally, they hurt the original inventors who built them, & they give intensives to future inventors to not produce their own puzzles. Can't you guys see that logic?
> ...


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## dunpeal2064 (Dec 7, 2009)

haha... the hillary clinton thing was because she is very VERY heavy on censorship... twas supposed to be a joke =)


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## dunpeal2064 (Dec 7, 2009)

Also, Saw these KO 6x6 on ebay... funny though, they are selling a bag to put your cube in for $25, and then giving you a free KO 6x6. I ordered the pillowed one to see how it is. *dun dun dun*


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## James Ludlow (Dec 7, 2009)

dunpeal2064 said:


> Also, Saw these KO 6x6 on ebay... funny though, they are selling a bag to put your cube in for $25, and then giving you a free KO 6x6. I ordered the pillowed one to see how it is. *dun dun dun*



Shoot me now.

I'd like to see a non pillowed 7x7. I think that although the outer layer would be even bigger than the six, it would be a lot more finger friendly.
Sorry guys, if there was a Chinese Cubic 7x7, it would be on my shopping list.


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## dunpeal2064 (Dec 7, 2009)

haha. i didnt see any 7x7s on there but they had flat 6x6. I just found it funny that instead of selling the KO's now they are giving them away... as long as you buy a $25 bag xD


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## qqwref (Dec 7, 2009)

Huh, I dunno about 6x6, but I could actually use a bag for my 7x7. Somehow its center stickers always get messed up when I let it play in my satchel with all the other cubes.


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## dunpeal2064 (Dec 7, 2009)

yeah it looked pretty nice too. it was blue, unlike the ghost hand bag, and it can hold a lot more (up to 7x7 it says, but it looks slightly bigger even)

AND you get a free KO cube with it. lol. not that anyone would ever want that >.>


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## Edmund (Dec 7, 2009)

Gurplex2: That lost part was really uncalled for.


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## dunpeal2064 (Dec 7, 2009)

yeah... sadly comments like that don't help whatever cause you're arguing for

=/


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## endless_akatsuki (Dec 7, 2009)

6x6 + bag for 25 bucks...sounds like it could be on da Christmas shopping list!

and 7x7's for $30...very nice XD


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## V-te (Dec 7, 2009)

endless_akatsuki said:


> 6x6 + bag for 25 bucks...sounds like it could be on da Christmas shopping list!
> 
> and 7x7's for $30...very nice XD



Yup. Sometimes KO's have a way better price than the originals.

Take the floppy cube. I was looking for one on ebay and it was $22, and I saw a KO white floppy cube for $3+free shipping. I would assume it has better quality than the original because I've seen reviews that say the original is stiff, while the KO was very nice out of the box, and still is.

$3 > $22+$10 shipping


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## Hyprul 9-ty2 (Dec 8, 2009)

Darn, even for me that $ 25 KO is expensive.


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## Tdude (Dec 8, 2009)

now there's black cube


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## Johannes91 (Dec 8, 2009)

V-te said:


> $3 > $22+$10 shipping


Nice usage of ">".


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## kongee (Dec 8, 2009)

We can educate ppl for not buying KOs but it's up to them if they aware about ethical..

Perhaps, puzzles inventors should start working closely with WCA Board like Sponsoring WCA competitions, eg monetary or merchandise.

WCA may also amend their rules in 3m clause, for instant "Only V7 from Vcube is allowed for 7x7x7 Cube event"

my 2 cents


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## aronpm (Dec 8, 2009)

kongee said:


> Perhaps, puzzles inventors should start working closely with WCA Board like Sponsoring WCA competitions, eg monetary or merchandise.
> 
> WCA may also amend their rules in 3m clause, for instant "Only V7 from Vcube is allowed for 7x7x7 Cube event"


No. That is a terrible idea. A company should not sponsor the WCA just so they can regulate the usage of cube brands. What if another company patents and produces a 7x7x7 cube? People wouldn't be allowed to use those cubes, because your proposed amendment would prohibit it.. What would the reaction from the community be if the regulations forbade the use of DIY cubes, and all competitors had to use Rubik's brand storebought cubes?

The current regulation allowing all brands of puzzles should not be changed. The WCA regulations do not exist to be fair to companies. They exist to be fair to competitors.


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## qqwref (Dec 9, 2009)

aronpm said:


> What would the reaction from the community be if the regulations forbade the use of DIY cubes, and all competitors had to use Rubik's brand storebought cubes?


This was actually the case for some very early competitions. I think in general people were annoyed by it but it didn't cause too much trouble.



aronpm said:


> The current regulation allowing all brands of puzzles should not be changed. The WCA regulations do not exist to be fair to companies. They exist to be fair to competitors.


This. The regulation is there for a reason. The WCA is an association of speedcubers, not of puzzle manufacturers, and the goal has always been to be nicer to competitors, not necessarily to benefit certain companies.


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