# Your PLL parity strategy



## Zarxrax (Mar 6, 2011)

It occurred to me that on the 4x4x4, doing the PLL parity before you do PLL can influence which PLL you will get. Does anyone actually do this?
Does anyone have any tips or rules of thumb that I could learn and apply to my solves?

And also, is it ever worthwhile to do the adjacent PLL parity, except in cases where you had a pll skip?


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## Cyrus C. (Mar 6, 2011)

I do this all the time. Often to get a T perm rather than an F perm, or J rather than a G. I don't think adjacent is ever necessary though, it's 8 extra moves. You can do this with OLL as well, of course.


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## Xishem (Mar 6, 2011)

Cyrus C. said:


> I do this all the time. Often to get a T perm rather than an F perm, or J rather than a G. I don't think adjacent is ever necessary though, it's 8 extra moves. You can do this with OLL as well, of course.


 
I don't see how it can be 8 extra moves. You can do a 3-move setup into an opposite swap, and then undo the setup for only an additional 6 moves.


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## Cyrus C. (Mar 6, 2011)

Xishem said:


> I don't see how it can be 8 extra moves. You can do a 3-move setup into an opposite swap, and then undo the setup for only an additional 6 moves.


 
I use R U R' U' (opp swap) U R U' R'. I guess it differs the way you execute it. It still seems like too much for just a better PLL in my opinion.


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## Vinny (Mar 6, 2011)

Yeah I hate when you get the case where the edges are next to each other (I haven't learned the algorithm), so I just do the parity first, then the PLL.


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## cuBerBruce (Mar 6, 2011)

Xishem said:


> I don't see how it can be 8 extra moves. You can do a 3-move setup into an opposite swap, and then undo the setup for only an additional 6 moves.


 


Cyrus C. said:


> I use R U R' U' (opp swap) U R U' R'. I guess it differs the way you execute it. It still seems like too much for just a better PLL in my opinion.


 
Or x R2 F' is only a 2-move setup (with an x cube rotation).


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## maggot (Mar 6, 2011)

there is a website that shows some tricks... http://www.cubestation.co.uk/cs2/index.php?page=4x4x4/paritypll
this website shows you how to manipulate the PLL with the parity alg. it is quite simple. it kinda reminds me of a domino in which you can perform the parity before or after and you can manipulate the PLL. i use this mentality of either opp switch or adj switch to change the PLL into something nice, typically a EPLL. and of course there is the OLL/PLL parity alg. i personally dont use it because i have no idea how to identify PLL parity from the OLL parity. but there are 2 OLL parity algs in which you can preserve the PLL or to cancel a PLL parity during OLL parity.


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## EricReese (Mar 7, 2011)

Yes I do it. Its very convenient to make sure I don't get bad PLLs. Dont listen to those people saying its not worth it to do adjacent swap parity. Its a hell of a lot faster to do those few extra moves then to do a U perm at the end. its fairly obvious :fp

To those who dont know the "alg". Its intuitive. Put the 2 edges, one in front and other on right. Now to set it up, "Hide" the edge on the right with R now move the front edge opposite of the edge u hid with a U, then undo the hiding of the right edge (so far its R U R') now set them do they are opposite each other with a U and you will notice that both those edges are now in opposite from each other which is the exact same as a regular PLL parity opposite swap. Do the standard alg, then at the end of it just re insert the F2L pair.

Tips for influencing the PLL. Basically its fairly intuitive but when you get to PLL parity you should be able to instantly be like oh I can get an (whatever) perm if I do it from this angle. However you shouldn't *actually* spend time deciding which angle. It should be pretty instantaneous. With practice you will be able to do it fast. At the very worst you can give yourself G perms. You should never have a N perm at least when influencing the PLL with parity


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## amostay2004 (Mar 7, 2011)

EricReese said:


> Yes I do it. Its very convenient to make sure I don't get bad PLLs. Dont listen to those people saying its not worth it to do adjacent swap parity. Its a hell of a lot faster to do those few extra moves then to do a U perm at the end. its fairly obvious :fp
> 
> Tips for influencing the PLL. Basically its fairly intuitive but when you get to PLL parity you should be able to instantly be like oh I can get an (whatever) perm if I do it from this angle. However you shouldn't *actually* spend time deciding which angle. It should be pretty instantaneous. With practice you will be able to do it fast. At the very worst you can give yourself G perms. You should never have a N perm at least when influencing the PLL with parity


 
Adjacent is only good to use when you have adjacent parity as your PLL. Other than that I don't think it's faster to do adjacent parity + better PLL. Also G perms on 4x4 suck, and can be avoided entirely when you have PLL parity. You can always end up with T, R, and J (for adjacent CP) with opposite PLL parity (correct me if I'm wrong, but I can't seem to think of a case where you can't end up with those). 

What do you mean you should never have N perm though? When you get PLL parity with 2 diagonal corners swapped do you do adjacent parity + V perm? I think it's faster to just do opposite parity + N perm.

Also for those who don't know this, a common trick for when you get E perm + PLL parity on 4x4 is to do the first half of Y perm (F R U' R' U' R U R' F'), opp parity, and finish Y perm (R U R' U' R' F R F')


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## Sa967St (Mar 7, 2011)

If I have a case with P parity with an adj corner swap, I would usually do a J, T, or R perm to solve corners and two edges, then do the opp or adj edge P parity alg.



amostay2004 said:


> Also for those who don't know this, a common trick for when you get E perm + PLL parity on 4x4 is to do the first half of Y perm (F R U' R' U' R U R' F'), opp parity, and finish Y perm (R U R' U' R' F R F')


Ossim.


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## qqwref (Mar 7, 2011)

amostay2004 said:


> Also for those who don't know this, a common trick for when you get E perm + PLL parity on 4x4 is to do the first half of Y perm (F R U' R' U' R U R' F'), opp parity, and finish Y perm (R U R' U' R' F R F')


Very nice, but how would you do the other E perm + parity?

I definitely try to affect the parity by doing it at different angles; sometimes I'll even do the PLL first and parity second (depending on recognition). I've never used adjacent parity to set up a PLL though, because none of my PLLs (except skip) are so much faster that it would be worth the extra moves and rotations.


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## deadalnix (Mar 7, 2011)

We tried to compute some of the cases with Clement Gallet a long time ago. Unhappilly, we didn't come up with some extraordinary stuffs.

However, I did learn to recognize every parity PLL for 4x4x4, and I have two purpose to do that :
1/ Knowing which parity then PLL or PLL then parity is optimal for me.
2/ Being able to recognize a parity case on square one at corner swap step using lars's method. And fix the parity when permuting corners.


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## amostay2004 (Mar 7, 2011)

qqwref said:


> Very nice, but how would you do the other E perm + parity?


 
No idea  I run into that case too rarely for me to care about it. I don't do a lot of 4x4 anyway


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## EricReese (Mar 7, 2011)

amostay2004 said:


> Adjacent is only good to use when you have adjacent parity as your PLL. Other than that I don't think it's faster to do adjacent parity + better PLL.


Sorry I thought it was implied that that is what I meant


> Also G perms on 4x4 suck, and can be avoided entirely when you have PLL parity.


Ah didnt know for sure you could avoid them entirely. However I have an xcube and can sub 3 all my G perms on it (single times, I usually hover around 3.4ish?). The cube is small enough that I can.


> You can always end up with T, R, and J (for adjacent CP) with opposite PLL parity (correct me if I'm wrong, but I can't seem to think of a case where you can't end up with those).


Thanks for letting me know 



> What do you mean you should never have N perm though? When you get PLL parity with 2 diagonal corners swapped do you do adjacent parity + V perm? I think it's faster to just do opposite parity + N perm.


No I dont do that. I just solve it in one look doing this alg: (Uu)2 (Ll)2 U2 l2 U2 (Ll)2 (Uu)2 R U' L U2 R' U R L' U' L U2 R' U L' U . Same with the one with two adjacent corners (which I used to make it into a T perm, alg I use for that is : L' u2 f2 r2 B2 R2 F2 f' B2 U' L' r' B R2 D2 r' B F2 R' f2 D2 L' F U2 D' R2 F' U F' f' U r2 D R' f B u' B r2 D ). However both of these cases can be avoided almost all the time with careful planning.


> Also for those who don't know this, a common trick for when you get E perm + PLL parity on 4x4 is to do the first half of Y perm (F R U' R' U' R U R' F'), opp parity, and finish Y perm (R U R' U' R' F R F')


 

Woah I did not know that. WIll be doing it for sure Amos thanks


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## amostay2004 (Mar 7, 2011)

EricReese said:


> No I dont do that. I just solve it in one look doing this alg: (Uu)2 (Ll)2 U2 l2 U2 (Ll)2 (Uu)2 R U' L U2 R' U R L' U' L U2 R' U L' U .



wut...I hope you realise that is literally PLL parity + N perm >_>



EricReese said:


> Same with the one with two adjacent corners (which I used to make it into a T perm, alg I use for that is : L' u2 f2 r2 B2 R2 F2 f' B2 U' L' r' B R2 D2 r' B F2 R' f2 D2 L' F U2 D' R2 F' U F' f' U r2 D R' f B u' B r2 D ). However both of these cases can be avoided almost all the time with careful planning.


 lolwat did you accidentally paste a 4x4 scramble?


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## EricReese (Mar 7, 2011)

No I copied it from this site. I didnt feel like going through my notation

http://www.speedcubing.com/chris/4speedsolve3.html

I hadnt realized that was just parity + n perm. I dont look at pieces when I do algs


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## theace (Mar 7, 2011)

I'm still really confused with the F and E perms

In case the E perm is the one with the opposite corner and edge swap, it can be converted to a T with the opposite corner swap PLL parity alg.

Otherwise, awesome. My D's suck anyway!

I do the parity alg before doing the OLL / PLL. it's much better that way. You can try to get cases you like hehe...


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## amostay2004 (Mar 7, 2011)

EricReese said:


> No I copied it from this site. I didnt feel like going through my notation
> 
> http://www.speedcubing.com/chris/4speedsolve3.html
> 
> I hadnt realized that was just parity + n perm. I dont look at pieces when I do algs


 
Now that you know, you should switch to using your own alg for PLL parity and N perm, it should be slightly faster (unless you're already using the same algs.) Also for the adjacent corner swap in Chris's site, you should realise it's PLL parity and T perm too (I hope you're not using the left hand T perm that he's using, or you would deserve a big facepalm )


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## EricReese (Mar 7, 2011)

I am. I am ambidextrous. So its not a facepalm


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## deadalnix (Mar 7, 2011)

qqwref said:


> Very nice, but how would you do the other E perm + parity?


 
RUD E perm is damn fast, and whatever direction you execute it, you end up with parity fix. This is as fast as Y perm trick IMO, and can be executed in any direction.


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## RyanReese09 (Mar 8, 2011)

Eric, if you say you know an alg, then make sure you actually learn it first..


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## EricReese (Mar 8, 2011)

What the heck are u talking about Ryan. I do know them.

Ryan If you are going to say for me to learn an alg, know what your talking about. Post reported


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## Kynit (Mar 8, 2011)

I always do parity before the PLL. I'm always worried when I see a very odd PLL that I could be recognizing a G, R, or E wrong, though.


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## maggot (Mar 8, 2011)

if you can recognize opp or adj parity within your R, T, J, Y? then you can end up with PLL parity to finish. 

does anyone use the PLL parity cancel alg from OLL parity? 

r2 B2 U2 l U2 r' U2 r U2 F2 r F2 l' B2 r2 being the standard alg that you spam when you see an off OLL and preserves PLL, but has anyone mastered recognition for the parity fix alg? 

(l2 B2 l U2 l U2 (x') U2 l U2 l' U2 l U2 l2 U2 (x)) solving the OLL parity and fixing PLL parity at the same time (or in the case of incorrect recognition turns a good PLL into parity?)


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## collinbxyz (Mar 8, 2011)

EricReese said:


> What the heck are u talking about Ryan. I do know them.
> 
> Ryan If you are going to say for me to learn an alg, know what your talking about. Post reported


 
I find it very amusing when you two fight =P
I am just starting to teach my brother the cube...not sure how it's gonna work out. He's learning the First two layers now.


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## reThinking the Cube (Mar 9, 2011)

Zarxrax said:


> It occurred to me that on the 4x4x4, doing the PLL parity before you do PLL can influence which PLL you will get.



Understanding that OP's idea is to use PLL parity (i.e. r2 U2 r2 Uw2 r2 u2) to influence (improve) PLL. For that to work, the corner permutation AND (d)edge permutation need to be made or kept the same (odd/odd, or even/even). If their permutations are different (odd/even or even/odd), before doing the parity alg, then doing it _CAN_ be beneficial. On the other hand, it actually makes matters worse - to recognize and change the (d)edge permutation, if the corner permutation is already matching. Doing PLL parity when it is not needed will require another PLL parity after the normal LLperm to fix. Mistakes here can become nasty odd corner swaps as leftovers of that wannabee *better* PLL case. Just in case - here is a new alg I found for diagonal corner swap.

reCorner()™ = (U2 Rw2 U2 R U2) x (U2 R2 U2 R' U2) x' (U2 Rw2 U2 (L'M') U2) r2



maggot said:


> r2 B2 U2 l U2 r' U2 r U2 F2 r F2 l' B2 r2 being the standard alg that you spam when you see an off OLL and preserves PLL, but has anyone mastered recognition for the parity fix alg?



r2 B2 U2 l (r2) U2 r' U2 r U2 F2 r F2 l' B2 r2 - this is cmowla's (r2) trick to convert OldStandard(OLLparity) to OldStandard(OLL+PLL)parity. Wide slice versions are also possible, so that can be a very useful multi purpose parity alg.



maggot said:


> (l2 B2 l U2 l U2 (x') U2 l U2 l' U2 l U2 l2 U2 (x)) solving the OLL parity and fixing PLL parity at the same time (or in the case of incorrect recognition turns a good PLL into parity?)



To fix OLL and PLL (make all corner,edge, and dedge permutations EVEN) at the same time:

reParity™ = (Rw U2 Lw' U2) x' (Rw' U2 Lw U2 Rw' U2 Lw U2 Lw' U2) (S2)

and it's slice version for the other double parity, = (r U2 l' U2) x' (r' U2 l U2 r' U2 l U2 l' U2) (M' U2)

Netting 2 birds with one stone.


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## qqwref (Mar 9, 2011)

deadalnix said:


> RUD E perm is damn fast, and whatever direction you execute it, you end up with parity fix. This is as fast as Y perm trick IMO, and can be executed in any direction.


Not everyone has a 4x4 on which they can do fingertricks like that without locking up.



reThinking the Cube said:


> Just in case - here is a new alg I found for diagonal corner swap.
> 
> (U2 Rw2 U2 R U2) x (U2 R2 U2 R' U2) x' (U2 Rw2 U2 (L'M') U2) r2


This is a kinda nice alg, although of course it'd only be worth doing if you have purely that case. How did you find it? By modifying a <R,L,U2,F2> N perm?


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## reThinking the Cube (Mar 9, 2011)

qqwref said:


> reThinking the Cube said:
> 
> 
> > reCorner()™ = (U2 Rw2 U2 R U2) x (U2 R2 U2 R' U2) x' (U2 Rw2 U2 (L'M') U2) r2
> ...



Thanks, and of course, most algs - "only be worth doing if you have purely that case." 

But yeah, I can and normally do, avoid that one. It just bothered me that all the known algs for it where so difficult. TMALSS - I got inspired from one of cmowla's earlier posts, that got me thinking about an idea of piggybacking (r2 U2 r2 U2 r2) onto a T-perm, or N-perm, with the goal of producing a better corner swap. After some searching, and experimentation, I came to a good understanding of how to solve and optimize this problem, and eventually I had something that I felt I could no longer improve upon. If you take out the slices and rotate into <R2,U,D> that alg shows itself to be a kinda nice 3x3x3 N-perm. Doing it that way doesn't execute as well on the bigger cubes, and since this is intended to be a 4x4x4 corner swap, the transformation needed to be kept <R,L,U2> .


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## deadalnix (Mar 9, 2011)

maggot said:


> does anyone use the PLL parity cancel alg from OLL parity?


 
I use the alg, but not accoding to PLL parity. It also influe on the OLL I'll get after OLL parity solving, so I choose to use the one that give me the OLL I prefer.


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