# Proposal: Add 15 Puzzle as an official event



## Deleted member 19792 (Sep 17, 2014)

Hello there.

The 15 puzzle, over the last year, has gained some popularity, whether it is physical or virtual. And in the meantime, we ask "what event comes next?"

The 15 puzzle would be a great idea of a new event to add. Problem is, we don't really know WHAT it fits?

According to Lucas Garron, the criteria for adding a new event to the WCA would be:



Lucas Garron said:


> Community Interest
> Practicality
> Consistent with the spirit and mission of the WCA, as well as Regulation 9a (though any of these could change).
> Interesting to solve and watch (from Sarah)



I am going to go through this criteria and put out some of my points on why this should be considered as an event.

*Community Interest*

Since around September 2013, the 15 puzzle community, via Ben's SlidySim program and physical puzzles, have grown dramatically since they first started to resurface on the forum, then started to spread to those outside of the forum. I still find myself speaking to newsliders on tips and tricks on how to improve.

*Practicality*

Running 15 puzzle can be pretty simple as a matter of fact:

SCRAMBLING:

When scrambling, a set "state" should be set out on the program to be "solved", considering the cube to be scrambled.

PENALTIES:

Some puzzles are always different than others, and they tend to have their own flaws. One major flaw, is misalignment upon completing the attempt. Upon doing a simple 3-cycle then dropping the puzzle on the mat 50 times, there were at least 30 misaligned states of what was past the "halfway" mark, on most pieces from the bottom or right layer. Penalties should only be DNF if the solved state was two individual moves from the intended finish. So for example, a DNF would be as follows:

1 2 3 4 
5 6 7 8
9 10 15 11
13 14 0 12 

While a solved state would be:

1 2 3 4
5 6 7 8
9 10 11 12
0 13 14 15

The difference from an individual move from a group move would be:

Individual R U L D
Group, 2R 2U 2L 2D


*Consistency*

The 15 puzzle is obviously consistent with the theme, spirit, goal, and mission of the WCA.

--It is stated that the mission does govern all puzzles labeled "twisty", but the Rubik's Clock doesn't fit that criteria. [With the exception of it being labeled as a Rubik's Puzzle.]

*Fun to watch*

Considering the count on some of Ben's videos, they look really fun to watch and it is pretty cool to see most of the solutions.

*Brand of puzzles*

There are two types of 15 puzzles, plastic, and metal, and both are really good after some wear in time.

Noting that when Skewb became an event, most people used a LanLan brand skewb, mainly because a good Skewb was not out yet. Would we be able to wait for a good 15 puzzle to come out after it has been added as an event? 

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Thanks, please leave comments on how this should be conducted and whether this should be added as an event or not.


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User quotes: {Will update periodically}



Brandon Mikel/Mikel said:


> The 15 puzzle might be a good idea to add, since it can attract most competitors that don't really know how to solve the Rubik's Cube



I do agree with this, however, it takes away the "meaning" of the WCA. Most competitors only come for 3x3 as their main event, and, although 15 puzzle is something I would like to see added, I would not like to see it kill 3x3 as the main event for every new competitor. [Unless they do not really know 15 puzzle is in there yet.]



Feliks Zemdegs/fazrulz said:


> No, no please. No. Not 15 puzzle


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## imvelox (Sep 17, 2014)

Yea it will be cool and it's an interesting puzzle, even if i think most people prefer using the sim instead of a physical one


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## slinky773 (Sep 17, 2014)

Moyu 15-puzzle will take 2 years to make lol

I honestly think that this would be cool, though. It would also be kind of cool to see companies make good 15-puzzles. I think all of the points you outlined in the proposition are valid.


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## IRNjuggle28 (Sep 17, 2014)

I think it needs more thought, and I think people do prefer the sim as Mattia mentioned, but I ultimately would like to see this be an official puzzle.


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## JasonDL13 (Sep 17, 2014)

I don't agree with it being added. Because the WCA is about Rubik's Cubes. I really don't want Clock to be an official event either.

However, it would be cool if this were to get added. Maybe add the 8 puzzle to.

A problem with this is that an 8 puzzle needs a computer to run, and if they use a physical puzzle it's harder, but it will work.

Overall, I don't think, and hope it won't get added, but if it does, half of me is happy, no need to cry


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## Randomno (Sep 17, 2014)

Do you all mean 15x15 or something?


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## guysensei1 (Sep 17, 2014)

> --It is stated that the mission does govern all puzzles labeled "twisty", but the Rubik's Clock doesn't fit that criteria. [With the exception of it being labeled as a Rubik's Puzzle.


The Rubik's clock twists (you can twist the dial things. Forgot what they're called) And it's a puzzle. So it's a twisty puzzle.


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## tseitsei (Sep 17, 2014)

Ok I think any slidy puzzles should NOT be a WCA event because:

*Consistency*
slidy puzzle is obviously inconsistent with regulation 9a:


> 9a) The WCA governs competitions for:
> 9a1) Puzzles known as Rubik's puzzles.
> 9a2) Other puzzles that are manipulated by twisting the sides, commonly known as "twisty puzzles".


Slidy puzzle is definitely not a Rubik's puzzle and not a twisty puzzle either. Rubik's clock is a Rubik's puzzle and all other official puzzles are definitely twisty puzzles.
It just doesn't belong under WCA.


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## szalejot (Sep 17, 2014)

tseitsei said:


> Ok I think any slidy puzzles should NOT be a WCA event because:
> 
> *Consistency*
> slidy puzzle is obviously inconsistent with regulation 9a:
> ...



Agreed, not WCA puzzle for me either.


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## CiaranBeahan (Sep 17, 2014)

I honestly don't want it in as an official event. Like tseitsei said it's inconsistent with regulation 9a. Not only that but it is still something that not a lot of people know about yet, and not many have solved it if people even have it.


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## Smiles (Sep 17, 2014)

I tried a few solves and it does feel very much like cubing because of the speedsolving aspect, however I have to agree with the twisty requirement. also, like Rubik's clock, its hard to watch compared to twisty puzzles.


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## Robert-Y (Sep 17, 2014)

I think it would really boring to watch. If you're sitting opposite to the competitor, you can't even see anything. But even you could watch the competitors fingers moving the tiles around fast, I would still find it quite boring anyway...

I can't see many people getting excited over someone solving these puzzles in real life.


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## Carrot (Sep 17, 2014)

I have nothing constructive to add, I just want to state that I would love to see this as an official event. I would also like to point out that 15 puzzle was being hosted at Danish Special 2013. (I can't remember the exact number, but I think it was more than half of the competitors)

I can see why people don't want it to become official as it is a slidy puzzle instead of a twisty puzzle.


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## Ollie (Sep 17, 2014)

strakerak said:


> *Community Interest*
> 
> Since around September 2013, the 15 puzzle community, via Ben's SlidySim program and physical puzzles, have grown dramatically since they first started to resurface on the forum, then started to spread to those outside of the forum. I still find myself speaking to newsliders on tips and tricks on how to improve.



Not quite sure what the popularity assumption is based on, since the poll results certainly contradict this. Even if there is interest, based on your assumption, it will be for the 15 puzzle sim. You have no evidence to say that there is interest in having a physical 15 puzzle in competition.



strakerak said:


> Brand of puzzles
> 
> There are two types of 15 puzzles, plastic, and metal, and both are really good after some wear in time.
> 
> Noting that when Skewb became an event, most people used a LanLan brand skewb, mainly because a good Skewb was not out yet. Would we be able to wait for a good 15 puzzle to come out after it has been added as an event?



This isn't an argument for adding 15 puzzle, this assumes that we are going to add 15 puzzle and proposes what we do in terms of hardware after it is made official. Hardware isn't an issue for any puzzle - if the demand for a good puzzle is there, designers will make it.

You also haven't explained how +2s might work, or if we bother to have them at all. I am also assuming you want a physical 15 puzzle as an event and not a sim, but to be honest I feel like most of the OP is vaguely worded in that respect and that you might try and flip flop between both ideas.


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## Kirjava (Sep 17, 2014)

Ollie said:


> You also haven't explained how +2s might work



This should be obvious, a move on 15 puzzle is quite easily definable.


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## kinch2002 (Sep 17, 2014)

Presumably +2 if more than half the piece is in the wrong slot.
I don't see how this puzzle fits in with the WCA at all.
Clock is also a borderline one, and is really only there because it is already there and is Rubik's.
15 puzzle is another few steps further away.

I'm happy just to watch slidysim videos. They're much more interested than solving irl imo 
If people want to compete, you could set up some sort of online competition, using the same scrambles, live streaming etc. I would enjoy watching that (or even taking part)


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## Ollie (Sep 17, 2014)

Kirjava said:


> This should be obvious, a move on 15 puzzle is quite easily definable.



The quote was


> You also haven't explained how +2s might work, or if we bother to have them at all


 because of cases like these:






At the end, two pieces are misaligned but can be fixed in one 'slide' and since he did not give a definition of a move in his Penalties section, it is slightly ambiguous as to whether this is a +2 or a DNF


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## mkarthick (Sep 17, 2014)

Randomno said:


> Do you all mean 15x15 or something?



No, he's referring to the sliding puzzle, the 15 puzzle. It was the rage like a decade ago I guess. I have this old plastic one at home. Overall, there's nothing wrong in adding it as an event, but really, I don't think it suits the WCA. Special emphasis on 'Twisty'.


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## stoic (Sep 17, 2014)

Not for me because of 9a as others have said. 
If you go down that road, there are lots of other puzzles which aren't twisty that might be fun to speedsolve; they just don't seem to have much to do with the WCA imo


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## RicardoRix (Sep 17, 2014)

Rubik's have branched into slidy puzzles:
http://www.rubiksrace.com/board-game/

Rather than recording fastest times, you could a face-off knockout competition, definitely more interesting to watch.


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## Petro Leum (Sep 17, 2014)

i don't even know what it is. did i miss something or are you maybe wrong about it's popularity?


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## kcl (Sep 17, 2014)

I see both arguments, but I don't have an issue with it becoming official. While it may not be a Rubik's puzzle or be especially interesting to watch, I'm not gonna lie, it's pretty boring to watch clock Imo. This would be no different.


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## AvGalen (Sep 17, 2014)

ellwd said:


> Not for me because of 9a as others have said.
> If you go down that road, there are lots of other puzzles which aren't twisty that might be fun to speedsolve; they just don't seem to have much to do with the WCA imo


Refering to 9a doesn't make much sense. 9b prevents any new event. When skewb was added 9b had to be adjusted. If 15 puzzle would be added both 9b and 9a have to be adjusted


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## TMOY (Sep 17, 2014)

I agree, it's juste another case of circular reasoning: "rules must be that way because rules are that way". Refering to 9a is fine, but only if you explain why you think 9a should stay as it is.


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## SolveThatCube (Sep 17, 2014)

It's not a twisty puzzle, shouldn't be added.


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## stoic (Sep 17, 2014)

9a is fine by me; it's consistent with the WCA's mission. 
(And if that's circular reasoning, I demand speed crossword puzzling at WCA events and request amendment of all regulations that prevent it)


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## tseitsei (Sep 17, 2014)

Yeah basically this thread is somewhat like saying: I and many other people like football so WCA should start holding football as official event.



AvGalen said:


> Refering to 9a doesn't make much sense. 9b prevents any new event. When skewb was added 9b had to be adjusted. If 15 puzzle would be added both 9b and 9a have to be adjusted



I find 9a to be kind of the definition of whole WCA. So changing that would be like changing the whole thing that WCA is trying to do. And if we do that we could as well add anything as a WCA event...


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## Antonie faz fan (Sep 17, 2014)

JasonDL13 said:


> I don't agree with it being added. Because the WCA is about Rubik's Cubes. I really don't want Clock to be an official event either.
> 
> However, it would be cool if this were to get added. Maybe add the 8 puzzle to.
> 
> ...


Wca is about twisty puzzles not rubiks cubes, if it where than only 3x3 would be a official event.


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## cubizh (Sep 17, 2014)

No.


strakerak said:


> *Practicality*
> 
> SCRAMBLING:
> 
> When scrambling, a set "state" should be set out on the program to be "solved", considering the cube to be scrambled.


No reference regarding notation? 



strakerak said:


> *Consistency*
> 
> The 15 puzzle is obviously consistent with the theme, spirit, goal, and mission of the WCA.
> 
> --It is stated that the mission does govern all puzzles labeled "twisty", but the Rubik's Clock doesn't fit that criteria. [With the exception of it being labeled as a Rubik's Puzzle.]


It's not consistent with the theme at all.
The only thing in common is you can scramble it and then the challange is to put it back in the original solved state as fast as possible.
But the same would apply to sorting a deck of cards, or my sock drawer.
Even the clock *is* a twisty puzzle, by the definition of 'twisty' that applies to puzzles: "to alter in shape, as by turning the ends in opposite directions, so that parts previously in the same straight line and plane are located in a spiral curve". 



strakerak said:


> *Fun to watch*
> 
> Considering the count on some of Ben's videos, they look really fun to watch and it is pretty cool to see most of the solutions.


I don't understand this.
Is the purpose of this proposal to have a computer based 15 puzzle?
I have looked at all Ben's videos, and he only seems to be solving virtual 15 puzzles.
Even though these may be cool to watch, it lacks some of the physical idea of the actual process of moving a piece.
I'm not so sure someone physically solving a 15 puzzle is appealing. You can't really see anything but the back of the puzzle if it's not laying on the table, or if you're behind the competitor.



strakerak said:


> *Brand of puzzles*
> 
> There are two types of 15 puzzles, plastic, and metal, and both are really good after some wear in time.


Sorry, but this is simply not true.
Physical versions of the 15 puzzle exist since the 19th century, and I think one of the most widespread puzzle materials was actually wood.
The only one I currently have is actually made of it:


Spoiler











and there's a lot more types of 15 puzzles out there, in what materials is concerned.
Personally, aside from the plastic, metal and wood, I have seen 15 puzzles made with stranger materials like ivory, and with something that is similar to wax.

But there are more issues.

What exactly *is* and *is not* a 15 puzzle? How do you define it? 
What do you consider to be an acceptable puzzle in a supposed competition?
Do the pieces have to be numered? Can it be roman numerals? Letters? Pictures?



Spoiler: What about this?













Spoiler: Would this be a valid solution to it?













Spoiler: How about this one?










How would you go in terms of writing proper regulations for establishing a valid 15 puzzle?
It's not that simple, and I only presented a few examples.

As you see, there are problems that would need to be addressed for this to become a remotely serious proposal.

On a closing remark, I have to say that I like the 15 puzzle.
It's a nice and fast puzzle, that is interesting and straightforward to understand and solve, but I don't think it fits into the WCA set of events at all.


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## Randomno (Sep 17, 2014)

It's a fun puzzle, wouldn't care if it got added to WCA or not.


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## ~Adam~ (Sep 17, 2014)

I think there are few people who actually want 15 puzzle added but if it was then lots of people would compete in it because it's easy to solve and many people have the attitude of 'If I can solve it I will in competition'.

If the event is added I suspect it will take up quite a lot of time in already hectic schedules.

Also, doesn't have enough in common with other events, not enjoyable to watch because the puzzle is obscured by the competitors hands so much and even though I think the event list is good the way it is I would prefer 2x3x3 or 3x3x4 be added instead.


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## sneze2r (Sep 17, 2014)

I love 15 puzzle but it should'nt be official WCA event. Reason is simple: this is flat puzzle.

Also i see no reason why rubik's clock should remain official(maybe because it contains "rubik's" in it's name?)


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## MennoniteCuber1 (Sep 17, 2014)

I say sure, it's fine with me. Except notation would be confusing.


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## imvelox (Sep 17, 2014)

MennoniteCuber1 said:


> I say sure, it's fine with me. Except notation would be confusing.



Nah, you have only U,R,D,L
Maybe the scrambles should be divided into groups of like 5 moves, like: RULUU-URRUD-LURRD (which is much less confusing than RULUUURRUDLURRD)


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## qqwref (Sep 17, 2014)

Honestly, as much as I have liked solving the puzzle on the sim, I don't really think it would be good for official solving. The puzzles I have played with move very poorly out of the box, it's so much slower than a good sim solve, and it's definitely not a twisty puzzle.

At least we can use random-state scrambling... handscrambles are notoriously awful for sliding puzzles.


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## maps600 (Sep 17, 2014)

I voted yes on the poll, but realize now that 15 puzzle wouldn't fit in. All WCA puzzles are 3 dimensional, while the 15 puzzle is 2d (You know what I mean). 15 puzzle isn't a twisty puzzle.


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## samuelqwe (Sep 17, 2014)

I chose yes, i think it would be a nice puzzle to add. Imagine the Moyu 15 Puzzle and having to lubricate it.
But it definitely would be cool to see that.


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## AlGoreRhythm (Sep 18, 2014)

I voted yes. I enjoy 15-puzzle, and really got into it when I had to take a break from cubing. It would also open up cubing to a whole new audience. 

I dunno, I think it would be fun. Maybe instead of a stack mat display they could show video of the puzzle being solved.


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## Kirjava (Sep 18, 2014)

Ollie said:


> At the end, two pieces are misaligned but can be fixed in one 'slide' and since he did not give a definition of a move in his Penalties section, it is slightly ambiguous as to whether this is a +2 or a DNF



Easy, just use one of the two obvious metrics.


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## elrog (Sep 18, 2014)

I have not voted yet.

Personally, I like the 15 puzzle, but it is not a twisty puzzle. I would be fine with letting the WCA govern twisty and sliding puzzles, but then you run into the problem of where to draw the line. Also, I think 9a (Rubik's puzzles) should be gotten rid of. Why should the WCA favor one company over another?

If the 15 puzzle is added, I don't think it should be on a computer simulator. Also, I don't care about if it fun to watch or not, but I'm like that with everything. I like playing sports and cubing but, I don't care for watching either of them.



maps600 said:


> I voted yes on the poll, but realize now that 15 puzzle wouldn't fit in. All WCA puzzles are 3 dimensional, while the 15 puzzle is 2d (You know what I mean). 15 puzzle isn't a twisty puzzle.



Rather than a 15 puzzle, why not have something like the sliding cube? It isn't speed-able in the video, but if anything is added to the WCA, companies will make speed-able ones, so I can't see that as an argument against it.


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