# Move count for speedsolvin' 3x3



## Zane_C (Nov 2, 2009)

Hi,
I was wondering how many moves everyone here uses for a speedsolve. I usually range between 65-70 moves per speedsolve with cross, F2L, 2 step OLL and full PLL.
Should I try to drop my move count? or just turn fast and have little delays?
I would like to hear from some experienced cubers please. 
Also, how are the number of moves worked out? Is it each 90° turn or does 180° count as 1 turn? 

Just of curiosity, does anyone know how much Erik Akkersdijk used in his 7.08 second solve? 

Thanks.


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## amostay2004 (Nov 2, 2009)

I get anywhere between 45 to 60 moves on normal solves with full Fridrich. No you should not focus on move count at all but like you said, just turn fast and have little delays, which means more lookahead. 

Any 90 or 180 degree turn counts as 1 turn.

I believe Erik used 42 or 43 moves for his 7.08 second solve, couldn't remember exactly. You can check out the reconstruction on Lucas Garron's page.


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## thelurch1986 (Nov 2, 2009)

I get about 48-58 using Petrus + 2 Look Last Layer (OLL/PLL). My F2L ranges from about 28-38 and OLL/PLL is about 20 moves on average.


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## Zane_C (Nov 3, 2009)

Gee, I couldn't even get under 45 moves for a fewest moves challenge, let alone in 7.08 seconds!


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## Johannes91 (Nov 3, 2009)

Zane_C said:


> Gee, I couldn't even get under 45 moves for a fewest moves challenge, let alone in 7.08 seconds!


If someone got an easy F2L and a LL-skip in a speedsolve, would you be super impressed because they got a really short and fast solve *at the same time*? Does not compute...


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## hawkmp4 (Nov 3, 2009)

Well, if you're looking at reducing your move count, ignore your last layer. Algorithms can't really be reduced, and besides, a sub-optimal algorithm may be much faster than an optimal one because it lends itself to triggers better.
Cross can ALWAYS be done in less than 8 moves. 
I forget the guideline for F2L but if you're doing more than 10 moves for an F2L case you should look up an algorithm because it's likely that there's a shorter and faster way to solve it.


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## miniGOINGS (Nov 3, 2009)

So I average like 57 with bad blockbuilding and 2 look CMLL, go me. Could get down to like 30-40 if I was good.


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## Johannes91 (Nov 3, 2009)

hawkmp4 said:


> Cross can ALWAYS be done in *at most* 8 moves.


FTFY


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## hawkmp4 (Nov 3, 2009)

Ah, yes. My mistake. There are 102 cross cases that only can be solved in 8 moves IIRC.


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## Escher (Nov 3, 2009)

A 35 or less move f2l is what you should be aiming for. 

- Try becoming opposite cross colour neutral. That is, if you use white cross now, start using yellow cross too. Many of the fastest cubers use this (Erik Akkersdijk + Breandan Vallance certainly do), and you can mostly avoid bad crosses. I find that the fewer moves I have to do in a cross, the easier it is to look ahead into the first pair.

- Use tricks like Keyhole to save moves. (I hope you don't already know this...)
An example:
Set-up: D' L' U L D
Normally you would probably do U2 R U' R' U2 R U' R'
Instead, you can do:
D' L' U' L D
This is a useful trick for edges or corners that are already in their slot (the example solves both so you can look at either to see how it works).

- Know when you have 'good' or 'bad' f2l edges. A 'good' f2l edge is one that can be solved using any or all of <R, U, L> moves. A 'bad' one is one that requires an F face turn or a rotation to be solved. 
Try this scramble: R2 U2 R U R U2 R U R U' R' U2 R U
What do you notice about the f2l edges?

Use http://mzrg.com/miniSites/scramblers/qqtimer.html
and select '3x3 subsets' and '<R, U, L> scrambles' to practice doing the f2l with no rotations.
You'll have to be able to solve slots from different angles to do this, if you haven't already learnt how to do that.

In fact, you only ever need one rotation while solving f2l pairs. Why is this?

- Do plenty of slow + smooth solves, and try and solve each pair as optimally as possible, keeping in mind the next pair you'll need to solve.

- sites like:
http://www.cubeloop.com/php/cube/advanced.php?chapter=f2l
http://pagesperso-orange.fr/absolutemind/ms-angl.html
http://www.opticubes.com/cubing/f2l/

and these vids/threads:
http://www.speedsolving.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14345
http://www.speedsolving.com/forum/showthread.php?t=15050

will help you to get a more advanced f2l.

- Just solve lots! You'll find out your own tricks and things as you go along.


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## Weston (Nov 3, 2009)

I just did a solve, and it was 54 moves.
It was a 6 move cross,
6 move 1st F2L pair
6 move 2nd pair (same case lol)
8 move 3rd pair
8 move 4th pair (it could have been 6 moves, but I did edge control to have all LL edges oriented)
Sune- 7 moves
R perm- 13 moves

EDIT: plus 1 move for AUF
DOUBLE EDIT: In a normal solve, it probably would be higher because of the LL. I would have done COLL (longer alg) and probably a U or Z perm.


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## miniGOINGS (Nov 3, 2009)

Let's see:

Step A: 4 move block and 1 move insertion = 5 moves
Step B: 8 move block and 1 move insertion = 9 moves
Step C: 5 move block and 3 move insertion = 8 moves
Step D: 3 move block and 2 move insertion = 5 moves
Corner Orientation: 1 move AUF and 7 move algorithm = 8 moves
Corner Permutation: 17 move algorithm = 17 moves
Edge Orientation: 7 moves = 7 moves
Left and Right: 3 moves = 3 moves
Middle: 3 moves = 3 moves

First Block: 14 moves
Second Block: 13 moves
Corners: 25 moves
Edges: 13 moves

Total: 65 moves

Comment: Stupid Y Perm


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## Weston (Nov 3, 2009)

miniGOINGS said:


> Let's see:
> 
> Step A: 4 move block and 1 move insertion = 5 moves
> Step B: 8 move block and 1 move insertion = 9 moves
> ...



May I suggest to you the Y perm that I use? Its very fast for both 2H and OH.

R2 U' R' U R U' y' x' L' U' R U' R' U' L U

Is 14 moves.


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## miniGOINGS (Nov 3, 2009)

Weston said:


> May I suggest to you the Y perm that I use? Its very fast for both 2H and OH.
> 
> R2 U' R' U R U' y' x' L' U' R U' R' U' L U
> 
> Is 14 moves.



Sorry, it won't work, I have to have the cube ready for LSE.


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## Weston (Nov 3, 2009)

miniGOINGS said:


> Weston said:
> 
> 
> > May I suggest to you the Y perm that I use? Its very fast for both 2H and OH.
> ...




Oh yeah you use petrus. My mistake.


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## miniGOINGS (Nov 3, 2009)

Weston said:


> miniGOINGS said:
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> > Weston said:
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Roux actually. 

To anyone who might have good algs... Thanks.


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## 4Chan (Nov 3, 2009)

I get around 50 moves.


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## Edward (Nov 3, 2009)

Im always around 80 moves :fp.


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## Weston (Nov 3, 2009)

miniGOINGS said:


> Weston said:
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> > miniGOINGS said:
> ...




Double Phail on my part.


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## Zane_C (Nov 3, 2009)

I'm off topic a bit, but I love the sune, it's so damn fast!


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## miniGOINGS (Nov 3, 2009)

Weston said:


> miniGOINGS said:
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> > Weston said:
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Haha yea, don't worry about it, but nice alg, I may use it for something I'm working on.


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## masterofthebass (Nov 3, 2009)

Y perm for Roux:

R' U L' U2 R U' x' U L' U2 R U' L

gogogo


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## waffle=ijm (Nov 3, 2009)

45-50 is my average in STM.


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## DavidSanders (Nov 3, 2009)

I would say 60 is my average number of moves per solve. That could go down a little if I would just learn full OLL and a few of the tricky F2L cases.


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## rubiknewbie (Nov 3, 2009)

Normally around 50-65. When there is a long PLL like Y-permutation then sometimes can't help but exceed 60. 

If I do slowly and think of shortcuts and stuff sometimes can do 40+ but in the heat of the moment unlikely to get the optimum moves so 50+ should be average.


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## hawkmp4 (Nov 4, 2009)

I forgot to post my own move count...
Roughly 60. I do a 3LLL and I'm guessing that's where most of my moves come from. F2L could use a bit of optimisation too.


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## rubiknewbie (Nov 4, 2009)

Zane_C said:


> I'm off topic a bit, but I love the sune, it's so damn fast!



That's like saying you love Michael Jackson when everyone is talking about the NBA championships.


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## Zane_C (Nov 4, 2009)

rubiknewbie said:


> Zane_C said:
> 
> 
> > I'm off topic a bit, but I love the sune, it's so damn fast!
> ...



Yes, that's why I said it's off topic.
How's this, I love the sune, it is an effective OLL case and has not much moves. 

back to topic:
Keyholes are good, they should cut my moves down slightly. multisloting looks complicated.


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## JLarsen (Nov 4, 2009)

I got 58 on a random scramble I just tried. I'll do another.

52...

63

There's a good range for you. I tend to kind of brute force blockbuilding though. I determine what I'm going to do during 2x2x3 before i even get there, and the lack of delay makes up for the brute force nature of my solutions.


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## rubiknewbie (Nov 5, 2009)

Although it is possible to do less moves, I end up purposely doing some longer algorithms to reduce cube rotation after I watched some of badmephisto's videos. He had 2 11-move algorithm for F2L that I use/plan to use.


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## hawkmp4 (Nov 5, 2009)

Sn3kyPandaMan said:


> I got 58 on a random scramble I just tried. I'll do another.
> 
> 52...
> 
> ...


How exactly is your solution 'brute force'?


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## LNZ (Nov 6, 2009)

For the very first time, I slow solved a 3x3 to get a half turn metric move count.

Here is the results:

Bottom layer cross: 12
Keyhole F2L: 39
Top layer cross: 06
OLL (1 alg): 08
PLL (2 algs): 17

Total: 78

Used 2-look OLL/PLL and a black Ghosthand for the run.


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## Ness (Nov 6, 2009)

Okay, I also just counted my moves in one solve.

1. block: 8 moves
2. block: 10 moves
3. 2-look corners: 8 + 14 moves
4. rest: 20 moves
= 60 moves

The 1x2x2 block was very easy to see (4 moves) and i spent half a minute looking for a good second block solution. 3. / 4. would have been the same at full speed. first and second block would probably be about 10 moves more.... 
So, I continue practicing tracking pieces.


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## Cyrus C. (Nov 6, 2009)

Right now in a speed solve:

2x2x2 - 8 moves
2x2x3 - 8 moves
Good edges/bad edges - 10 moves
Finish F2L - 15 moves
OLL - 7 moves
PLL - 10 moves
Total - 57 moves

If I'm going slow & trying to build blocks & stuff correctly.

2x2x2 - 6 moves
2x2x3 - 6 moves
Good Edges - 8 moves
F2L - 10 moves
OLL - 7 moves
PLL - 10 moves
Total - About 50 moves

When I was on Fridrich I had about 65 moves on average.


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## Edmund (Nov 6, 2009)

Probably like 60 for me.


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## Inf3rn0 (Nov 8, 2009)

Just did a solve - 76moves.

Im curious i think im going to do more.

EDIT: 61


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## Zubon (Nov 8, 2009)

I just did 3 slow solves using my normal method. Going slow, I saw some shortcuts which I wouldn't have seen going fast so I ignored them.

1. 57 moves
2. 61 moves
3. 53 moves

A lot of people are trying to use advanced F2L methods, double insertion or excessive use of free slots. Sometimes I think that just pure speed helps me rather than thinking about tricky shortcuts that save one or two turns but force me to regrip or use awkward moves.


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## Zane_C (Nov 8, 2009)

Petrus looks very effecient, I think I'll stick to fridrich. I'm starting to use keyholes now to shorten the insertion of corners.


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## rubiknewbie (Nov 9, 2009)

Zubon said:


> I just did 3 slow solves using my normal method. Going slow, I saw some shortcuts which I wouldn't have seen going fast so I ignored them.
> 
> 1. 57 moves
> 2. 61 moves
> ...



I get 57,57,42,50 but doing it slowly. 50-60 is normal for Fridrich.

In speedsolving, I want to use keyholes badly but always miss them or by the time I see them, it is always "ah screw it, let's move on" :fp. It might be the fact that they often end up in the wrong hand position.

The problem with speedsolving is that it is difficult to balance move count with finger-tricks and lookahead.

Give me 2 minutes and I can do all the efficient moves


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## Zubon (Nov 9, 2009)

rubiknewbie said:


> Zubon said:
> 
> 
> > I just did 3 slow solves using my normal method. Going slow, I saw some shortcuts which I wouldn't have seen going fast so I ignored them.
> ...




Recently I have been taking advantage of the keyhole method in my Fridrich solves. If I have the corner piece oriented and in position in FRD AND the edge piece is in the top layer AND the slot in BRD is free, I use a quick fingertrick of (UD')RU'R'D' to insert the edge.


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## rubiknewbie (Nov 10, 2009)

Zubon said:


> rubiknewbie said:
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You mean (UD')RU'R'*D*? Beginning and end should be opposite.


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## blah (Nov 10, 2009)

Escher said:


> - Know when you have 'good' or 'bad' f2l edges. A 'good' f2l edge is one that can be solved using any or all of <R, U, L> moves. A 'bad' one is one that requires an F face turn or a rotation to be solved.



*What he said.* Almost nobody ever knows this, sadly


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## Zane_C (Nov 10, 2009)

rubiknewbie, thanks for the correction, and thanks zubon for bringing that keyhole into the confersation. I'm beginning to learn shortcuts fast.


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## miniGOINGS (Nov 10, 2009)

blah said:


> Escher said:
> 
> 
> > - Know when you have 'good' or 'bad' f2l edges. A 'good' f2l edge is one that can be solved using any or all of <R, U, L> moves. A 'bad' one is one that requires an F face turn or a rotation to be solved.
> ...



I know this, yay ZZ.


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## rubiknewbie (Nov 11, 2009)

miniGOINGS said:


> blah said:
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> 
> > Escher said:
> ...



For me if the F is R'FRF' or some variations it is still good, at least for me. F'U'F sux for me, worse than cube rotation .


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## rubiknewbie (Nov 11, 2009)

rubiknewbie said:


> Zubon said:
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> > rubiknewbie said:
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I don't like the UD' in this case. For me the better way to do this, though not very intuitive, is R2U'R'UR2'.


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## miniGOINGS (Nov 12, 2009)

rubiknewbie said:


> miniGOINGS said:
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> > blah said:
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Not sure what you meant.


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