# 9x9?



## toast (Jun 20, 2009)

http://twistypuzzles.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=13968

Edit:


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## jcuber (Jun 20, 2009)

I get an error on the link.


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## toast (Jun 20, 2009)

jcuber said:


> I get an error on the link.



Wait then, probably overloaded.


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## Swoncen (Jun 20, 2009)

Who did that? Amazing!


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## ThatGuy (Jun 20, 2009)

If it is my mom is going to China maybe this summer. If she does I'll try to get her to get a hold of one.
But did they skip 8x8 because it's an even cube? Can someone explain?


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## toast (Jun 20, 2009)

Vulosity said:


> Is that the Chinese one?



Yes. They hope to sell it in August.


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## VP7 (Jun 20, 2009)

Ok, Now the 11x11 please.


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## ThatGuy (Jun 20, 2009)

Why do they skip the evens? Can someone explain it in detail?


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## d4m4s74 (Jun 20, 2009)

is this a verdes clone or a new design?
if it is a verdes clone, would ya guys buy it?


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## ISuckAtCubing (Jun 20, 2009)

d4m4s74 said:


> is this a verdes clone or a new design?
> if it is a verdes clone, would ya guys buy it?



i would, if verdes is gonna sell it, i will see who is selling it cheaper


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## Ethan Rosen (Jun 20, 2009)

It's an illegal chinese knockoff
If you buy it, you support criminals
Also, I have my doubts as to the quality


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## ThatGuy (Jun 20, 2009)

Technically if Verdes hasn't patented the 9x9 mechanisms if wouldn't be a knockoff.


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## Ethan Rosen (Jun 20, 2009)

ThatGuy said:


> Technically if Verdes hasn't patented the 9x9 mechanisms if wouldn't be a knockoff.



That would be really useful information if we lived in an alternate world where he hadn't patented the 9x9 mechanism


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## TomZ (Jun 20, 2009)

ThatGuy said:


> Technically if Verdes hasn't patented the 9x9 mechanisms if wouldn't be a knockoff.



If Verdes hadn't patented his mechanism we wouldn't have ANY V-Cubes.

Look at those corner pieces, thier stems are so thin. I bet they'll snap after half a day of cubing.


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## endless_akatsuki (Jun 20, 2009)

Ethan Rosen said:


> It's an illegal chinese knockoff
> If you buy it, you support criminals
> Also, I have my doubts as to the quality


lol...why are they "criminals" again...?
You guys support Verdes too much.


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## Cheese_Board (Jun 20, 2009)

They copied the cubes from the V-Cube patents.


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## Ethan Rosen (Jun 20, 2009)

endless_akatsuki said:


> Ethan Rosen said:
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Because they broke international copyright law maybe?


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## Escher (Jun 20, 2009)

endless_akatsuki said:


> Ethan Rosen said:
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Just shut up now and we won't completely destroy you.


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## veazer (Jun 20, 2009)

What are the penalties for violating international copyright laws anyway?


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## endless_akatsuki (Jun 20, 2009)

Escher said:


> endless_akatsuki said:
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lol, wonderful. I'm just saying that it doesn't really matter if people buy those chinese knock offs or not. Verdes will still make money


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## ThatGuy (Jun 20, 2009)

sorry didn't realize they had up to 11
http://www.google.com/patents?id=TVabAAAAEBAJ
But that only says US patent.
edit: There's Foreign application priority data and public classifications, what do those mean?


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## Ethan Rosen (Jun 20, 2009)

endless_akatsuki said:


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This is the type of stupidity that allows for the flourishing of illegal knockoff markets that do nothing more than hurt consumers and inventors.


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## Escher (Jun 20, 2009)

endless_akatsuki said:


> lol, wonderful. I'm just saying that it doesn't really matter if people buy those chinese knock offs or not. Verdes will still make money



I'm not trying to be wonderful, it just looks as though you were defending thieves. To me, it's simply a matter of respect to Verdes and his family; they have poured their lives (time, effort, intellect, and a massive amount of money) into this invention, and to go and buy a rip off is just throwing that back in their faces.


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## shoot1510 (Jun 20, 2009)

toast said:


> jcuber said:
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http://twistypuzzles.com suspended? That weird, twistypuzzles never done anything.


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## blade740 (Jun 20, 2009)

endless_akatsuki said:


> lol, wonderful. I'm just saying that it doesn't really matter if people buy those chinese knock offs or not. Verdes will still make money



That may have been a bit true when the V7 came out long before the knockoff. Now the ONLY 9x9 on the market is an illegal product, and so 100% of people who buy them will be supporting criminals. Verdes is making no money off of his design.


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## joey (Jun 20, 2009)

shoot1510 said:


> toast said:
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It had some planned downtime.


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## endless_akatsuki (Jun 20, 2009)

blade740 said:


> endless_akatsuki said:
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> > lol, wonderful. I'm just saying that it doesn't really matter if people buy those chinese knock offs or not. Verdes will still make money
> ...



Well...since most people appear to be just like you, you don't need to worry about that. 
Unless, of course, you do indeed plan on buying one.


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## Kit Clement (Jun 20, 2009)

endless_akatsuki said:


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And because there are people like you, we do need to worry.


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## endless_akatsuki (Jun 20, 2009)

kippy33 said:


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I suppose I've made the wrong impression. LMAO


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## jcuber (Jun 21, 2009)

Remember, for every non-v-cube you buy, the more likely verdes is to not produce their versions of the cubes not already released. Although others may make them, verdes would make them in a (most likely) high quality plastic, awesome customer service, etc.


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## ccchips296 (Jun 21, 2009)

endless_akatsuki said:


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haha seems so.....some people take things very seriously on this forum. ill bet theyll take this very seriously too




jcuber said:


> Remember, for every non-v-cube you buy, the more likely verdes is to not produce their versions of the cubes not already released. Although others may make them, verdes would make them in a (most likely) high quality plastic, awesome customer service, etc.



geez....bias much? u dont know how the quality of that "knock off" place is......and u better not be implying what i think you are


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## Swoncen (Jun 21, 2009)

I agree. Although it's very seductive to buy the 9x9x9 I'll stick to V-Cubes. Anyway I don't think they'll produce the 9x9x9 first.


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## StratoPulse (Jun 21, 2009)

That's weird, it says twistypuzzles is down, account domain blocked by Parallels H.


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## jcuber (Jun 21, 2009)

ccchips296 said:


> jcuber said:
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> > Remember, for every non-v-cube you buy, the more likely verdes is to not produce their versions of the cubes not already released. Although others may make them, verdes would make them in a (most likely) high quality plastic, awesome customer service, etc.
> ...



What do you think I am implying?


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## qqwref (Jun 21, 2009)

Not sure if want.

I know I will definitely buy an official V-cube 9 when they come out; that's not at all in question. However, if the Chinese one comes on the market first, buying one or not will be a tough choice, because I definitely do want to be one of the first people to have a 9x9 and start getting decent times with it. I really hope Verdes puts out a 9x9 soon, because that would make the choice a lot easier (in that case it'd be "buy a V-9 only", of course).


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## Ethan Rosen (Jun 21, 2009)

ccchips296 said:


> endless_akatsuki said:
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Yes, I take the livelihood of honest inventors very seriously


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## Swoncen (Jun 21, 2009)

I wonder how much they will cost. Around 80$ maybe..


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## Paul Wagner (Jun 21, 2009)

veazer said:


> What are the penalties for violating international copyright laws anyway?


Go on google and look up Greek copyright laws?

EDIT: Well what about chinese knock-offs of everything else. People don't complain about there amazing Chinese diy's. 
Or their 4x4 knockoffs of Rubik's.
I'm sure Verdes won't let them get away with this so let's not jump to conclusion.
Lastly, we (I) don't know if they are getting compensated for their ideas, Verdes can stand up for himself and 
if we complain it won't change a thing. Harsh, but the truth.


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## anythingtwisty (Jun 21, 2009)

I would never buy a knockoff knowingly, and will gladly wait for the V9. Why doesn't speedsolving.com adopt a knockoff policy similar to the one over at TwistyPuzzles?


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## Ethan Rosen (Jun 21, 2009)

Paul Wagner said:


> veazer said:
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DIYs are not a knockoff of a valid patent


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## 4Chan (Jun 21, 2009)

I don't understand why this took so long honestly, the patents have been out for YEARS.

With the combined resources of twistypuzzles, and their amazing accomplishments (gigaminx and petaminx http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLyFqm4D9tI )....

Surely they could have used the patents from v cubes and created the v cubes independently!!!!

The chinese simply took the initiative.

However..... I have seen the v cubes home from posts on twistypuzzles....
And i really respect their ideas and they gave me amazing customer service multiple times!

And so... I must side with verdes, Even though the means are possible, it makes me sad that verdes is being cheated.


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## ISuckAtCubing (Jun 21, 2009)

so if the V-cube 9 is crappy and some chinese 9x9x9 cube is better and cheaper, you would still buy the V-cube 9?


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## Feanaro (Jun 21, 2009)

I doubt the v-cube 9 will be crappy, I mean their other cubes are amazing so the 9 should be too. I'm going to wait for a V9.


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## 4Chan (Jun 21, 2009)

ISuckAtCubing said:


> so if the V-cube 9 is crappy and some chinese 9x9x9 cube is better and cheaper, you would still buy the V-cube 9?



This is a very very very tough choice. >.<

I'd side with Verdes no doubt though. V-cubes all the way.

It's brand loyalty. It's why i wear abercrombie and hollister, not because its cheaper and better, but because i like it.


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## Paul Wagner (Jun 21, 2009)

Ethan Rosen said:


> Paul Wagner said:
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Oh well, I shouldn't have said it so confidently then but are the 4x4's a knock-off?



> It's brand loyalty. It's why i wear abercrombie and hollister, not because its cheaper and better, but because i like it.



Please don't compare them because it makes you cool to wear hollister, v-cubes don't make you cool.
Because they're is really no difference opposed to regular clothing. Because hollister doesn't represent
anything except the brand, and please, don't use the "Surfing" as an excuse because 99% of people don't buy it for the surf team. Maybe I'm using my own logic but to people who don't wear hollister it really makes people 
who do seem like they just want to look like they have a high social class. Now look at a skateboarding shirt because it at least represents a skateboarding team, and not nothing.


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## jcuber (Jun 21, 2009)

Which 4x4s? Mefferts? Eastsheen? C4Y?


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## Paul Wagner (Jun 21, 2009)

Meffert's, and C4U *are* the same thing. And yes those two.


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## jcuber (Jun 21, 2009)

They aren't the same thing, just the same mech. Just like how chineese 7x7's and v-7's aren't the same thing.


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## Paul Wagner (Jun 21, 2009)

jcuber said:


> They aren't the same thing, just the same mech. Just like how chineese 7x7's and v-7's aren't the same thing.


Okay, don't tell me that, I have both of them they are the same thing. The chinese 7x7 and V-7 are completely different.


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## jcuber (Jun 21, 2009)

I believe they are legal, because I _think_ the patent has expired. I may be wrong.


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## daeyoungyoon (Jun 21, 2009)

Eh....I don't think I'm ever going to buy anything higher than a 7x7....Might just get it for the collection after it comes out (from verdes.....don't trust the chinese ones) but I wouldn't bother speedsolving with them.


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## 4Chan (Jun 21, 2009)

Paul Wagner said:


> Ethan Rosen said:
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Chill dude, seriously.
I was just making a point about brands....


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## StachuK1992 (Jun 21, 2009)

I for one would never buy a 9x9 *that had the same device as the v-cubes*.
Ever.

It's just dispicable to support such a thing.


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## PatrickJameson (Jun 21, 2009)

I think people are taking this way too seriously. It's a chinese knockoff, congratulations. It's not like we weren't expecting it. And if they are a reasonable price and come out before the V-9's, I'll definitely get it. V-cubes could take another few years to release the V-9 for all we know, while 9x9's are out there, waiting to be solved. So what if it's a slightly worse quality than the v-cube material, it would be a 9x9, and the only one available.

When V-cubes actually do come out with the V-9, I will be sure to get it as well. Why? To compare it to the knockoff to see which I like better and to have it as part of my collection. I just find it quite ridiculous that people are going to these great lengths to attempt to bring down this company that is making the knockoff.


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## Paul Wagner (Jun 21, 2009)

I second that.


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## Ethan Rosen (Jun 21, 2009)

sigh
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patents#Rationale


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## DcF1337 (Jun 21, 2009)

I personally would feel good if I bought only the original V-Cubes, but darn, isn't it tempting? When's Verdes going to release more V-Cubes anyway?


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## lala47 (Jun 21, 2009)

i think many people don't get one thing (i'm not all "pro-KO" so that you know), from my point of view, buying a knockoff product, is not necessarily harmful, for example, if you already own the original product, you may want to buy a knockoff for collecting purposes, or in this specific case you may buy the knockoff since the original product is not even being produced, and then buy the original once it comes out. there are some examples in which this is even legal, like game ROMs, if you, for example, have an Snes emulator, and play a game you ALREADY OWN, it is perfectly legal. or if you download a song after buying the CD, in all of those cases, there is no harm done. I will insist in this, as long as you get the original product, i consider you ethically entitled to get a knockoff.


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## Rubixcubematt (Jun 21, 2009)

endless_akatsuki said:


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how will he make money when people are buying the knock-off 9x9 and not his????


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## imaghost (Jun 21, 2009)

Rubixcubematt said:


> endless_akatsuki said:
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Because people will still buy from Verdes, which is why so many people support him and not the knock-offs. Not everybody will buy the knock-off just because one person said they will. Rubik's brand still makes money even though there are knock-offs of the 3x3. Yet nobody complains that Rubik's is losing money because one person bought a DIY off-brand cube.


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## trying-to-speedcube... (Jun 21, 2009)

Look, if there weren't any knock-offs on the market, I would wait for V-cubes. That's 80 dollars for Verdes, 0 dollars for the Chinese.

If there are knock-offs and Verdes puts the V-9 on the market say a year later, I would buy both, just because I want to get a 9x9 as fast as possible.
That's 80 dollars for Verdes, 80 dollars for the Chinese.

Verdes isn't losing money, the Chinese are winning money. It doesn't harm anyone, except me, because I lost 160 dollars


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## Paul Wagner (Jun 21, 2009)

Rubixcubematt said:


> endless_akatsuki said:
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Knockoffs are really hard to get your hands on so it wouldn't even be worth it.


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## TomZ (Jun 21, 2009)

Let me explain how this works:

Verdes made a massive investment. He purchased patents in a lot of countries. A patent can cost up to $10.000. Obviously when you purchase more than one the price goes down as you can recycle the first patent, but still it's going to cost you a lot on attorney fees.

Next, Verdes hired a company to make the dies for making V-Cubes. They made him a set of dies, which set him back $10.000 (that's on the cheap side). Using these dies, Verdes made a couple of prototypes. He reviewed these prototypes, and then made improvements to the design. He then had another set of dies made and continued this reviewing process until he had found the best formula possible. By this time, he has probably spent around $120.000.

Now, he hasn't earned anything yet. He has just spent god knows how much money on making the tooling for producing puzzles we all want without knowing if the market will be big enough for him to make back his investment. The speedcubing market isn't big enough, and what non-speedcubers would want a 7x7?

Next, he has to use these molds to produce 10.000 cubes he might never sell and also has to market them. He uses the best plastic available (even better than the kind used in Rubik's Cubes) and great quality stickers. Another fifty grand down the drain.

So as you can see, Verdes took a big financial guess to please the Speedcubing community. I don't believe he's made back all his money yet. He's putting his money on the line to please us.

Now, in comes some Chinese company. They copy his design, get a set of dies made using child labor and don't review anything (the corner neck could really use being a bit beefier). Then they use low quality plastic (just look at the color) to make the low quality product and sell it, a bit cheaper, but still they make five times as much money per sold product than Verdes.

If Verdes hadn't taken the plunge of patenting, producing and marketing his V-cubes, we wouldn't have had any. If they hadn't been a success, the Chinese companies would never have cared about copying them. If we buy these F9's (fake-9's) that could very well cause Verdes, without whom we would never have had any cubes >5x5x5, to end up with a very, very large debt.

Right now, Verdes has to make another investment. He will have to hire Chinese lawyers, track down the KO factory, file a lawsuit and pray the corrupt Chinese government rule in his favor. A process that might take years, a time frame in which Verdes might very well go bankrupt.

Verdes has spent thousands of dollars to give us what we wanted: higher order cubes. I think we should support him and refrain from giving these Criminals any support (which includes buying one if you already have the original) as our thank-you for the immense amount of money he spent to please us.

Buying something because you have bought or will buy the original doesn't make things right. If you buy anything from these Criminals, they'll receive a signal that they should continue doing what they're doing and also the means to do so. Be grateful to Verdes! If it weren't for him, we wouldn't have had anything.


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## blade740 (Jun 21, 2009)

trying-to-speedcube... said:


> Verdes isn't losing money, the Chinese are winning money. It doesn't harm anyone, except me, because I lost 160 dollars



Every 80 dollars you give to a knockoff producer is helping keep a thief in business.


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## Ethan Rosen (Jun 21, 2009)

trying-to-speedcube... said:


> Look, if there weren't any knock-offs on the market, I would wait for V-cubes. That's 80 dollars for Verdes, 0 dollars for the Chinese.
> 
> If there are knock-offs and Verdes puts the V-9 on the market say a year later, I would buy both, just because I want to get a 9x9 as fast as possible.
> That's 80 dollars for Verdes, 80 dollars for the Chinese.
> ...



Is it so f***ing hard to think more than 5 minutes ahead?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patents#Rationale


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## Me Myself & Pi (Jun 21, 2009)

Whoa! I heard Izovire, on YouTube, talk about this, but I didn't think it would be true! That is crazy! But if it does become available, I encourage everyone NOT to buy it. The company would be making money off of Verdes's invention, without giving a dime to him!

I tried searching the website on the pictures, http://bbs.mf8.com.cn/. (I'm using http://babelfish.yahoo.com/ to translate). It's a forum site, so it's rather big. If anyone else what's to look at it, go ahead.



ThatGuy said:


> If it is my mom is going to China maybe this summer. If she does I'll try to get her to get a hold of one.
> But did they skip 8x8 because it's an even cube? Can someone explain?



The even layered cubes have to made from the odd layered ones. In the V-Cube 6, there is a bunch of inner pieces. The V-Cube 7 has those same inner pieces, except they stick out as regular pieces. But it makes it harder to make an even layered cube because you need to keep the inner layer of the cube in alignment, since there's no way to grip it.


Oh, also, the TwistyPuzzles forum is back up.


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## qqwref (Jun 21, 2009)

TomZ, you make it sound like if we do *nothing* Verdes will immediately go out of business. I don't have the money to buy thousands of V-7s and I suspect not many people here do either. Besides, Verdes has said several times that he doesn't want our financial help. Your negativity is annoying and unhelpful.

As a perfectionist myself, I really understand Verdes's tendency to want to perfect his cubes before releasing them to the public, but this would not be a good time to do that... at the moment releasing a V-9 would be a really good decision even if it is low-quality compared to the other V-cubes. The quality will increase later on and those of us who care about bigcubing won't have to deal with stupid moral issues.


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## royzabeast (Jun 21, 2009)

Not to sound ignorant here, but shouldn't there be some sort of international patent system going around? Wouldn't that be a nice relief for inventors that have to pay for patents in many countries, and making it harder to have business stolen from them?


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## Ton (Jun 21, 2009)

TomZ said:


> Now, in comes some Chinese company. They copy his design, get a set of dies made using child labor and don't review anything make the low quality product and sell it, a bit cheaper,
> corrupt Chinese government rule in his favor. A process that might take years, a time frame in which Verdes might very well go bankrupt.
> 
> Criminals any support (which includes buying one if you already have the original)



My sympathy goes to Mr Verdes, but you make very bold accusations, without proof or knowing the facts

What I understand is according to Chinese law they are legal. (although we know there are copies)

Most of the Chinese puzzles (DIY etc) are now high quality products, you can not just assume it is of low quality. 

About child labor, I doubt it in this case. I Believe it is a know firm to Mr Meffert. 

Chinese government, well a bold statement, I would say China is not an open country. The fact that a firm makes a copy -our opinion- has nothing to do with the Chinese government, I would suspect the Chinese patent office or a spy at the factory of Mr Verdes. But I can not proof anything, so even this suspicion is not correct as statement

From your statement I assume you where angry, so I understand, I am very worried for Mr Verdes future to


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## Ethan Rosen (Jun 21, 2009)

royzabeast said:


> Not to sound ignorant here, but shouldn't there be some sort of international patent system going around? Wouldn't that be a nice relief for inventors that have to pay for patents in many countries, and making it harder to have business stolen from them?




There is, but many countries choose not to honor them. International Patents are kind of like UN resolutions, they pretty much just urge countries to back them, but it is ultimately up to the country to do what it pleases.


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## DcF1337 (Jun 21, 2009)

Why is it that no one complains about JSK clones, or copies of original cubes, but make such a big deal out of this 9x9?

I mean, yeah, I understand, it's stealing and all, but Verdes has yet to release the 9x9. So if a Chinese company decides to copy Verdes' 9x9 design and make their own 9x9, isn't it perfectly normal for people to buy them? 

I'm not blaming Verdes for not releasing their 9x9, I'm just saying that this is inevitable. We can tell everyone not to buy them but *people will anyway*. There are collectors out there who will buy them, regardless of ethics and whatnot. They have it, you buy it. Isn't that how the business world works?

I'm not necessarily defending the thieves though. I personally wouldn't mind waiting a few years for the real deal to come out. But if they don't... well, maybe the Chinese copies are the next best thing.


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## rahulkadukar (Jun 21, 2009)

I would buy both. However Verdes should release it ASAP


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## rachmaninovian (Jun 21, 2009)

personally, I would get it simply because it's the only 9x9x9 out in the market.
Since the 6by and 7by knockoffs came AFTER the real v-cubes, i didn't bother to spend my money on them because I know they are of inferior quality and stuff.
and of course i want to be the first to try out how ridiculous my silliie commutator method can get.


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## TomZ (Jun 21, 2009)

"TomZ, you make it sound like if we do *nothing* Verdes will immediately go out of business. I don't have the money to buy thousands of V-7s and I suspect not many people here do either. Besides, Verdes has said several times that he doesn't want our financial help. Your negativity is annoying and unhelpful."

I guess that's right. My post is a bit over the top but it makes for good essay-test practice. Though I'm just talking about moral support. I never suggested anything about buying 100 7x7's or anything of the sort.

"What I understand is according to Chinese law they are legal. (although we know there are copies)"
What if murder was legal in China? What if China had no laws at all? (PS: It is somewhat a grey area in China, patent laws aren't as strict in China as they are over here. Though I heard the Chinese 'government' is about to pass or has passed stricter patent laws.)
Here's a theory: I think whoever made this cube IS scared of the patent laws. As you can see, they added a little bump near where the corner neck meets the quarter sphere. There's no reason to do this except for trying to avoid patent issues.

"Most of the Chinese puzzles (DIY etc) are now high quality products, you can not just assume it is of low quality"
Just look at those pictures. It looks like I can snap the corner neck using only two fingers. 3x3 DIY's are also fairly simple things to produce. The V-Cubes mechanism on the other hand, not so much. It really appears to be nightmare to tool.

"About child labor, I doubt it in this case. I Believe it is a know firm to Mr Meffert. "
Yes, that was a bit of a bold statement as I don't know anything regarding that, but there is a chance they're using dirty tricks of that kind.

There is a European patent system.


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## CuberDude (Jun 21, 2009)

It looks pretty dirty..


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## luke1984 (Jun 21, 2009)

I find it hard to imagine Mr. Verdes doesn't know about this. It would be a wise move for him to release some new cubes himself. I know I'd rather buy a real V-Cube than this one.

I think I lot of people would consider buying this one if the real V-9 doesn't come out. It would be the only 9x9x9 on the market.

I would also like to add: breaking copyright law isn't wrong because the government says so. The government is not some absolute moral authority. I have some moral objections to this but they have NOTHING to do with (international) copyright laws. Common sense dictates my morals NOT any kind of government or law.
And if your morals are dictated by law, I feel for you...


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## Ton (Jun 21, 2009)

TomZ said:


> "
> What if murder was legal in China? What if China had no laws at all? (PS: It is somewhat a grey area in China, patent laws aren't as strict in China as they are over here. Though I heard the Chinese 'government' is about to pass or has passed stricter patent laws.)
> Here's a theory: I think whoever made this cube IS scared of the patent laws. As you can see, they added a little bump near where the corner neck meets the quarter sphere. There's no reason to do this except for trying to avoid patent issues.
> 
> ...



First this 9x9 is probably a prototype, second I think the firm has legal claims that are sound in China. 
Most likely this is one of the firms that make other quality puzzle e.g. for Mr Mefferts. Accusations about them using dirty trick or using child labor , I believe is very wrong

The fact that there is a legal copy/improved? patent- exist is the problem. That we all agree is very wrong. We can not accuse the factory who make the 9x9 without any proof. 

We can however disapprove to the one who filled the patent.


----------



## panyan (Jun 21, 2009)

depending on how long verdes waits to release the real 9x9, i may take an interest in this - against all my moral decency


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## d4m4s74 (Jun 21, 2009)

I give verdes till christmas to start making the V9 (as in having made a prototype or atleast proved they are working on it), after that I'll start researching how to get the F9


----------



## Mike Hughey (Jun 21, 2009)

qqwref said:


> Not sure if want.
> 
> I know I will definitely buy an official V-cube 9 when they come out; that's not at all in question. However, if the Chinese one comes on the market first, buying one or not will be a tough choice, because I definitely do want to be one of the first people to have a 9x9 and start getting decent times with it. I really hope Verdes puts out a 9x9 soon, because that would make the choice a lot easier (in that case it'd be "buy a V-9 only", of course).



I feel the same way (except I want to be one of the first to solve it BLD). If I decided to buy the Chinese one, I would vow to buy a V-9 and destroy the Chinese one as soon as Verdes put one out. I would destroy the Chinese one rather than sell it or give it away, to prevent other loss of sales to Verdes. But I really would be tempted to buy the Chinese 9x9x9.


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## brunson (Jun 21, 2009)

DcF1337 said:


> Why is it that no one complains about JSK clones, or copies of original cubes, but make such a big deal out of this 9x9?


Because the 3x3 patent has expired, patents are supposed to expire to keep people innovating after a reasonable period of protection.


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## fanwuq (Jun 21, 2009)

DcF1337 said:


> Why is it that no one complains about JSK clones, or copies of original cubes, but make such a big deal out of this 9x9?
> 
> I mean, yeah, I understand, it's stealing and all, but Verdes has yet to release the 9x9. So if a Chinese company decides to copy Verdes' 9x9 design and make their own 9x9, isn't it perfectly normal for people to buy them?



In another thread, I defended someone who bought both a V-cube 7 and a knockoff 7x7x7. Verdes did not lose anything there (at least not in the short run; new potential consumers might be influenced to buy the knockoff and not the V-cube.) However, it was still wrong because the patent is not expired like that of the Rubik's cube.
Here, this release of the 9x9x9 before the V-9 is really really bad for Verdes and it is too early to tell if this is bad for the consumer. On one hand, Verdes could see the competition and release the V-9 early and take action to close the illegal 9x9x9 production. And we can get the real V-9 sooner and possible cheaper. On the other hand, Verdes could just try to close down the production of the illegal 9x9x9 and give up producing new V-cubes.
It is normal to buy new products, but wrong to buy the illegal product.


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## TomZ (Jun 21, 2009)

fanwuq said:


> In another thread, I defended someone who bought both a V-cube 7 and a knockoff 7x7x7. Verdes did not lose anything there (at least not in the short run; new potential consumers might be influenced to buy the knockoff and not the V-cube.)



Verdes did loose out. By buying the fake, the KO-maker received a signal people wanted their people and also the means to produce even more.


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## masterofthebass (Jun 21, 2009)

Personally, I don't doubt that these manufacturers are doing things legally within China. I'm pretty sure China allows knockoffs to be created/sold within the country. I think anyone going into the manufacturing business is aware of that. The problem arises when it is exported for sale in other countries. I think that actually is when the breech in copyright occurs. There's no doubt in my mind these will be sold in China along with the other fake cubes, but as long as we try to keep the international exportation down, that should presumably keep Verdes's loss down.


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## Kian (Jun 21, 2009)

masterofthebass said:


> Personally, I don't doubt that these manufacturers are doing things legally within China. I'm pretty sure China allows knockoffs to be created/sold within the country. I think anyone going into the manufacturing business is aware of that. The problem arises when it is exported for sale in other countries. I think that actually is when the breech in copyright occurs. There's no doubt in my mind these will be sold in China along with the other fake cubes, but as long as we try to keep the international exportation down, that should presumably keep Verdes's loss down.



China has been a member of WIPO (along with almost every country in the world), for quite some time. They should legally be guaranteeing that violations of international patents aren't proliferated abroad or domestically. This, of course, is not a reality. But they are certainly at fault for domestic sales as well.


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## Ton (Jun 21, 2009)

brunson said:


> DcF1337 said:
> 
> 
> > Why is it that no one complains about JSK clones, or copies of original cubes, but make such a big deal out of this 9x9?
> ...



Almost true, you can use the mechanism, the 3x3 still protected by copyright. So you are free to use the mechanism to make anything but a 3x3 cube with 6 colors. Copyrights was discussed here many times, in any country that has a distributor, the license holder successfully defend the intellectual property of Mr Rubik, the cube is protected by copyright, not the patent.....


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## James (Jun 21, 2009)

Although all those who are trying to defend Verdes make valid, strong points, I 
see it this way:

Ever since I found the V-cube website, many months ago, it claims that the V-cube 9 will be available in "the near future". This was not true. 

Multi-layered cubes are not an original invention, so why should Verdes have the right to monopolize the entire market for them, especially if he is not releasing his product? The Chinese company is not really stealing his product, they are just providing competition. It seems to me that the Chinese company producing this fake 9x9 is showing much more ingenuity and marketing sense that Verdes is by releasing a product that people want now. Despite this, when an official V-cube 9 is released, I will most definitely purchase it, regardless of how cheap or how many other 9x9's I may own.


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## fanwuq (Jun 21, 2009)

James said:


> Although all those who are trying to defend Verdes make valid, strong points, I
> see it this way:
> 
> Ever since I found the V-cube website, many months ago, it claims that the V-cube 9 will be available in "the near future". This was not true.
> ...



No. His design is unique and original. Proposing a problem is different from solving it. I can propose, "Let's make a 5D truncated fused simese gigaminx!" But that does not mean I invented it. They are stealing because there is a patent that is not expired.




TomZ said:


> fanwuq said:
> 
> 
> > In another thread, I defended someone who bought both a V-cube 7 and a knockoff 7x7x7. Verdes did not lose anything there (at least not in the short run; new potential consumers might be influenced to buy the knockoff and not the V-cube.)
> ...



That's why I said "short run"... Read the whole post. The act itself of buying both does not hurt Verdes, but it sends a bad message and also helps the knockoff seller.


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## TomZ (Jun 21, 2009)

"Multi-layered cubes are not an original invention, so why should Verdes have the right to monopolize the entire market for them, especially if he is not releasing his product?"
He patented the method, not the concept. Anyone can make a 9x9x9 provided they don't use his mechanism. There's also this thing called licensing: Anyone can make a 9x9x9 with his mechanism provided they work out a deal with him. I doubt the KO people even considered this.

"That's why I said "short run"... Read the whole post. The act itself of buying both does not hurt Verdes, but it sends a bad message and also helps the knockoff seller."
Read the whole post: I did notice the short run thing, but to me it looked like you connected short run to the reasoning behind the semicolon.
How does the act of buying not hurt Verdes? You help keep his enemies in business, so that hurts Verdes, right?


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## EmersonHerrmann (Jun 21, 2009)

Cool  I wonder who will be the first speedcuber to have one.


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## veazer (Jun 21, 2009)

I just want to see how much and in what ways verdes design will differ from that one.

EDIT: by design i simply mean what will differ between them to make one of a better quality than the other.


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## masterofthebass (Jun 21, 2009)

THEY COPIED THE VERDES DESIGN YOU IDIOT. it won't differ at all.


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## Paul Wagner (Jun 21, 2009)

masterofthebass said:


> THEY COPIED THE VERDES DESIGN YOU IDIOT.


Lol, he got owned. And btw, I like your picture.

On topic: Did you see the guys video's 
the design IS the same thing. But you would
have to say the same for mefferts 4x4's, wouldn't you.


----------



## (X) (Jun 21, 2009)

veazer said:


> I just want to see how much and in what ways verdes design will differ from that one.



-__- ........


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## masterofthebass (Jun 21, 2009)

All the "new" 4x4s are all probably made in the same factory. DX/Mefferts/C4Y are all the same thing. Meffert's just selling them as his own, even though they aren't really.


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## veazer (Jun 21, 2009)

Ask yourself this... How is the original 3x3 different from the others? 
How is a dx/mefferts/c4y 4x4 different from a rubiks 4x4?

_How is the v5/6/7 different frem the chinese knockoffs? If they're the same then why do the chinese v5 clones suck compared to the real one?_

There will be some differences...MINOR DIFFERENCES, but still some diffrences


masterofthebass said:


> YOU IDIOT.


----------



## Paul Wagner (Jun 21, 2009)

masterofthebass said:


> All the "new" 4x4s are all probably made in the same factory. DX/Mefferts/C4Y are all the same thing. Meffert's just selling them as his own, even though they aren't really.


Aren't they knocking off of the Rubik's though?
And also I wouldn't doubt they are made in the same factory. 
And I wouldn't be surprised if "fake" nike's 
are made in the same factory as "real" nike's. 
Lastly, I've seen like 3 videos with people having the 
fake 7x7 and they all have the real one's! 
Don't forget in Izovire's video he shows the HK now store,
and they had REAL V-cubes in there then. If the fake 9x9 
comes out I bet the only people who would buy it are people 
who can buy it at a store, 
I doubt that many people know how to use the HK now store, 
I haven't seen one video of somebody Internationally 
(of Hong Kong and China) using a fake V-cube 7, link me if I'm wrong.
And I bet people who would buy the fake 9x9 in 
Hong Kong or China, can also buy the V-cube 9.

V-cubes aren't losing and China isn't winning they both make money but that isn't the point what China is doing is wrong, we can't do anything to stop it and the only people losing are us for wasting our time putting serious thought into it. You cant force things to happen a certain way they'll happen that way no matter what you did.


----------



## jcuber (Jun 21, 2009)

veazer said:


> Ask yourself this... How is the original 3x3 different from the others?
> How is a dx/mefferts/c4y 4x4 different from a rubiks 4x4?
> 
> _How is the v5/6/7 different frem the chinese knockoffs? If they're the same then why do the *chinese v5's *suck compared to the real one?_
> ...



................


----------



## veazer (Jun 21, 2009)

jcuber said:


> veazer said:
> 
> 
> > Ask yourself this... How is the original 3x3 different from the others?
> ...



meant to say v5 clones.


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## darkzelkova (Jun 21, 2009)

So, these aren't even for sale?


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## jcuber (Jun 21, 2009)

veazer said:


> jcuber said:
> 
> 
> > veazer said:
> ...



.................


----------



## Swoncen (Jun 21, 2009)

Stop such posts jcuber, please.


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## jcuber (Jun 21, 2009)

Swoncen said:


> Stop such posts jcuber, please.



I was merely trying to point out the fact that veazer has absolutely *no idea* what he is talking about.


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## masterofthebass (Jun 21, 2009)

veazer, let me explain something to you, that you obviously can't get your tiny little head around. The whole phenomenon with v-cubes is that the mechanism Panagiotis Verdes came up with is applicable for cubes larger than 5x5. That is the SECRET to everything. Without his ingenious design, none of these cubes would be possible. If someone came out with a different design, such as other 5x5 designs that exist (Eastsheen, Rubiks) that would not be the problem at all. The problem comes when a company BLATANTLY copies the internal mechanism of someone else's and goes to sell it. That infringes on the rights of the original owner. Yes, because of horrible manufacturing process, the Chinese knockoffs aren't as of good quality as the well produced, well designed v-cubes, BUT the ****ing cubes are still the same thing. It's blatant theft, and if you think otherwise, you shouldn't bother commenting on the situation because you aren't capable of thought that kindergardeners can grasp:
"he stole something from me. That's not right"


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## Feanaro (Jun 21, 2009)

I wonder if Mr. Verdes knows about this yet. I think it's really wrong that they are copying the designs that v-cubes strived for. Besides, the knock-off may not even be as good quality as the v-cube.


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## TobiasDaneels (Jun 21, 2009)

masterofthebass said:


> veazer, let me explain something to you, that you obviously can't get your tiny little head around. The whole phenomenon with v-cubes is that the mechanism Panagiotis Verdes came up with is applicable for cubes larger than 5x5. That is the SECRET to everything. Without his ingenious design, none of these cubes would be possible. If someone came out with a different design, such as other 5x5 designs that exist (Eastsheen, Rubiks) that would not be the problem at all. The problem comes when a company BLATANTLY copies the internal mechanism of someone else's and goes to sell it. That infringes on the rights of the original owner. Yes, because of horrible manufacturing process, the Chinese knockoffs aren't as of good quality as the well produced, well designed v-cubes, BUT the ****ing cubes are still the same thing. It's blatant theft, and if you think otherwise, you shouldn't bother commenting on the situation because you aren't capable of thought that kindergardeners can grasp:
> "he stole something from me. That's not right"



Man chill,don't be so aggressive.
I think it should be you (as a moderator) to give an example on how to debate calmly and with respect for one and other.

On topic, I'm pleased to actually see a 9x9x9 cube, but I'm also a bit fed up with all those knock offs. I hope that Verdes will produce cubes like this in the future to, but I have a feeling it might take some months longer. 
Ha well, we'll see, and for now be glad with what we have allreaddy.
I waited for 2 and a half years for the 6x6 and 7x7 to come out. 
I can wait a little longer for the higher ranked ones.


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## Paul Wagner (Jun 21, 2009)

jcuber said:


> Swoncen said:
> 
> 
> > Stop such posts jcuber, please.
> ...


Okay, he doesn't know what he's talking about you are the perfect example of somebody who just posted a rude comment and had nothing helpful in the long run. So your post was just as stupid as his. Dan's was harsh, yeah but he at least got the point across


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## Zaxef (Jun 21, 2009)

Dan's comment was fine, it gave me a chuckle 
And he's right.. If you don't understand what this knock-off means, and WHY it's a knock-off.. just don't comment.

It's illegal to sell them outside of China, so I don't think any of us will be getting one any time soon, just wait until Verdes releases them, if he ever does..

And if he doesn't EVER plan to release them he should let the Chinese produce them for us (in exchange for a cut of their profits of course).


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## Paul Wagner (Jun 21, 2009)

TobiasDaneels said:


> masterofthebass said:
> 
> 
> > veazer, let me explain something to you, that you obviously can't get your tiny little head around. The whole phenomenon with v-cubes is that the mechanism Panagiotis Verdes came up with is applicable for cubes larger than 5x5. That is the SECRET to everything. Without his ingenious design, none of these cubes would be possible. If someone came out with a different design, such as other 5x5 designs that exist (Eastsheen, Rubiks) that would not be the problem at all. The problem comes when a company BLATANTLY copies the internal mechanism of someone else's and goes to sell it. That infringes on the rights of the original owner. Yes, because of horrible manufacturing process, the Chinese knockoffs aren't as of good quality as the well produced, well designed v-cubes, BUT the ****ing cubes are still the same thing. It's blatant theft, and if you think otherwise, you shouldn't bother commenting on the situation because you aren't capable of thought that kindergardeners can grasp:
> ...


No we need an aggressive moderator who is firm and will take action!


----------



## veazer (Jun 21, 2009)

sorry for starting the flame war, but I did not say that the design would be any different... THE WAY IT WORKS WILL BE THE SAME, but that verdes may, as some people pointed out, make the corner stalks thicker, since they look like they would break, use a different plastic type, put different stickers on it, or something of that sort to better the cube before its release. That's what I meant... and how many of you have read his patent? All it does is explains how the mechanism works, but it contains nothing about the exact thickness and plastic material he will use for each size cube, nor anything about stickers, lubrication, packaging...

And yes, to the flamers, I do know the chinese one violates the patent in every way imaginable, and does use the same mechanism. I even know how and why it works mathematically on a cortesian grid. I am not that stupid that I think the chinese cube is different, just that the one verdes makes will hopefully be of better quality. My question was meant to be read as, "what will he do to make it of a better quality than they will.


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## jcuber (Jun 21, 2009)

Those things are insignificant in patents, it is the mechanism that counts.


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## panyan (Jun 21, 2009)

d4m4s74 said:


> I give verdes till christmas to start making the V9 (as in having made a prototype or atleast proved they are working on it), after that I'll start researching how to get the F9



good plan, i may do the same


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## TomZ (Jun 21, 2009)

veazer said:


> I even know how and why it works mathematically on a cortesian grid.



Wow, you really tried hard to look knowledgeable there.


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## veazer (Jun 21, 2009)

jcuber said:


> Those things are insignificant in patents, it is the mechanism that counts.



Yes, but I wasn't even talking about the design, and we all know it violates the patent laws... we all know the design is going to be the exact same, but what I meant was how the exact specifics and other items that aren't in the patent will differ, like how thick various parts are, and the other stuff at the end of the last page.


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## veazer (Jun 21, 2009)

TomZ said:


> veazer said:
> 
> 
> > I even know how and why it works mathematically on a cortesian grid.
> ...



Do you understand it... without looking at verdes pictures or an actual v-cube? 

If you do, then by all means, you sir, know more than I.


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## TobiasDaneels (Jun 21, 2009)

Paul Wagner said:


> No we need an aggressive moderator who is firm and will take action!



Well, I dissagree.
Normally a moderator 'moderates' a debate rather then participating it.
That aside, I don't mind him expressing his own thoughts and opinions but it's not whise to offend others in your position as moderator.

But understand me correctly, I appreciate what moderators like Dan are doing here, and I think, for what I know, he's a wonderfull guy and a passionate speedcuber.
I just thought that one post was a bit to harsh. You may agree or dissagree, that's up to you.


----------



## veazer (Jun 21, 2009)

TobiasDaneels said:


> Paul Wagner said:
> 
> 
> > No we need an aggressive moderator who is firm and will take action!
> ...



Well I was the one he harshed out, but it was understandable based on my poorly worded question. 

Calling someone an idiot may be a bit harsh, but really guys, chill out, its just the internet...


----------



## PatrickJameson (Jun 21, 2009)

TobiasDaneels said:


> Paul Wagner said:
> 
> 
> > No we need an aggressive moderator who is firm and will take action!
> ...


What? Why? Moderators should be able to make people post better and more thoughtful posts. Not be all nice to everyone.

Edit:


veazer said:


> Calling someone an idiot may be a bit harsh, but really guys, chill out, its just the internet...



This isn't JUST the internet. This is a community in which the internet just happens to be the medium in which we communicate. A lot of people here have seen people in this forum in real life and it should be the general mood of this forum that we are talking to each other in real life.


----------



## TobiasDaneels (Jun 21, 2009)

PatrickJameson said:


> TobiasDaneels said:
> 
> 
> > Paul Wagner said:
> ...



Well, if the majoriy feels this way, I guess I might have it wrong.
But I still think it's wrong saying things like: your tiny little brain and such.
But please, let it be. I don't won't to argue about this, you have your opinion, I have mine. Let's stick to that, ok?


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## veazer (Jun 21, 2009)

PatrickJameson said:


> This isn't JUST the internet. This is a community in which the internet just happens to be the medium in which we communicate. A lot of people here have seen people in this forum in real life and it should be the general mood of this forum that we are talking to each other in real life.



You all take everything i say too far out of context... I meant that the insult was just made due to the seemingly anonymous nature of the internet, and that you shouldn't take insults on the internet as seriously as if he had said it to my face, which he probably wouldn't have done... he probably would've said "what?" or "what are you talking about" or "dude... they're the same thing," at which time i would've explained what i meant by the word "design".


----------



## 4Chan (Jun 21, 2009)

TomZ said:


> veazer said:
> 
> 
> > I even know how and why it works mathematically on a cortesian grid.
> ...



Cartesian.


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## Corpsez (Jun 21, 2009)

Dang wef..


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## PatrickJameson (Jun 21, 2009)

veazer said:


> PatrickJameson said:
> 
> 
> > This isn't JUST the internet. This is a community in which the internet just happens to be the medium in which we communicate. A lot of people here have seen people in this forum in real life and it should be the general mood of this forum that we are talking to each other in real life.
> ...



No, knowing Dan in real life, I believe that if you continued to disagree with him in this subject he would, in fact, call you an idiot.


----------



## veazer (Jun 21, 2009)

Cubes=Life said:


> TomZ said:
> 
> 
> > veazer said:
> ...



wow... I can't spell... It is just one letter though.


----------



## veazer (Jun 21, 2009)

PatrickJameson said:


> veazer said:
> 
> 
> > PatrickJameson said:
> ...



But I never disagreed with him... he simply misinterpreted my point due to my terrible choice of the word "design" So it is my fault, but in real life this fault could be very easily remedied, whereas on the internet, it leads to major disscussion and me misspelling cartesian.

Just to clarify, instead of design, I meant specifics, as in manufacturing methods, raw materials used in the plastic, exact thicknesses of pieces, etc... not the general design which they would both obviously share.


----------



## PatrickJameson (Jun 21, 2009)

veazer said:


> PatrickJameson said:
> 
> 
> > veazer said:
> ...



Well then that just goes back to this post: http://www.speedsolving.com/forum/showpost.php?p=195650&postcount=118

Hopefully you can learn to look over your posts to make sure that everything makes sense and nothing can be misinterpreted.


----------



## veazer (Jun 21, 2009)

PatrickJameson said:


> veazer said:
> 
> 
> > PatrickJameson said:
> ...



I couldn't think of a good word to replace design, and it did make sense at the time... once someone commented and I looked back, it was a retarted post.


----------



## Ethan Rosen (Jun 22, 2009)

veazer said:


> PatrickJameson said:
> 
> 
> > This isn't JUST the internet. This is a community in which the internet just happens to be the medium in which we communicate. A lot of people here have seen people in this forum in real life and it should be the general mood of this forum that we are talking to each other in real life.
> ...



You don't seem to understand that this dispute is about far more than an internet flame war. This is about the livelihood and success of honest businessmen and inventors. The actions that people take on this one issue is going to have a much greater effect than who makes the first solve on youtube, or something equally stupid. It will effect the future production and success of new puzzles, and you are inadvertantly harming the entire community.


----------



## anythingtwisty (Jun 22, 2009)

As I said before, this site needs a knockoff policy to prevent easy access to knockoffs and to discuss the serious implications of buying a knockoff puzzle knowingly. It could include not being allowed to post links to pages selling knockoffs. Buying knockoffs is bad for the consumer, original inventor, and for the puzzle market. This INCLUDES so-called "clefferts" 4x4x4s, as they are a blatant, unlicensed KO of the mefferts ones.


----------



## Ethan Rosen (Jun 22, 2009)

anythingtwisty said:


> This INCLUDES so-called "clefferts" 4x4x4s, as they are a blatant, unlicensed KO of the mefferts ones.



This is just a blatantly wrong statement


----------



## anythingtwisty (Jun 22, 2009)

Ethan Rosen said:


> anythingtwisty said:
> 
> 
> > This INCLUDES so-called "clefferts" 4x4x4s, as they are a blatant, unlicensed KO of the mefferts ones.
> ...



Why don't you shoot off an email to Uwe Meffert and see what he thinks.


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## AvGalen (Jun 22, 2009)

In situations like these, you should follow this analysis:

1) Has a patent been used?
2) Was the patentholder compensated?
3) Were any local laws broken?
4) Were any internation laws broken?

With the information that I have and the knowledge I have gathered, I guess the answers would be

1) Yes, the F9 is using the V-Patents.
2) No, Verdes didn't license this or gets compensated in any other way
3) I don't know for sure. It seems that this "might" be allowed in China
4) I don't know for sure. It seems to me that exporting it (to most other countries) is probably illegal

So as far as I know it would be illegal for almost everyone (except MAYBE the Chinese) to buy one. That also means that it isn't very useful debating about "Verdes losing money or not". Buying something that is illegal is bad, period.

That doesn't mean it isn't tempting though, so I hope that the F9 will become an officially licensed product soon and that we will see an official V9 on the market as well.


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## Hadley4000 (Jun 22, 2009)

Okay y'all, here are a few things.

1. Before I say this, I want to say that I will not buy the knockoff or official V9.

Almost every major brand has some sort of competition, it is a reality of sales. We knew this would happen. I would wager that a lot of people who would be buying the clone would either buy the V9 in addition, or not buy the V9 at all regardless.


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## rachmaninovian (Jun 22, 2009)

i've felt both clefferts and mefferts 4x4s; they feel different. i've got no idea why???clefferts is crispier =P

v9's should be released soon so that i do not need to think of a way to get an F9.


----------



## Kian (Jun 22, 2009)

AvGalen said:


> In situations like these, you should follow this analysis:
> 
> 1) Has a patent been used?
> 2) Was the patentholder compensated?
> ...



About point three and four, the Chinese government is happy to look the other way, but as a member of WIPO, they should be upholding all patents and copyrights domestically as well as with exports.


----------



## Paul Wagner (Jun 22, 2009)

anythingtwisty said:


> Ethan Rosen said:
> 
> 
> > anythingtwisty said:
> ...


Why don't you not argue with Ethan and look at another topic because he's right and you are wrong. And you don't know what you're talking about you just guessed.

& Arnaud: I posted a lot of similar ideas earlier in the forum, and I don't believe they sell internationally. I'm sure they know what they're doing & point 2 you are sure they have no plan worked out?


----------



## royzabeast (Jun 22, 2009)

Hadley4000 said:


> Okay y'all, here are a few things.
> 
> 1. Before I say this, I want to say that I will not buy the knockoff or official V9.
> 
> Almost every major brand has some sort of competition, it is a reality of sales. We knew this would happen. I would wager that a lot of people who would be buying the clone would either buy the V9 in addition, or not buy the V9 at all regardless.



Competition is fine. I think most of us live in capitalist countries? But the fact that the knockoff is using the same internal mechanism that was created by Verdes. It wouldn't be so much of an issue if the design was more original.

And I have a question: I know The original Rubik's Cube patent is expired, but do the new cubes, such as the Rubik's 5x5 and 6x6, have new patents or are they all under the same expired patent?


----------



## jcuber (Jun 22, 2009)

royzabeast said:


> Hadley4000 said:
> 
> 
> > Okay y'all, here are a few things.
> ...




I hope you mean 4x4 and 5x5...


----------



## qqwref (Jun 22, 2009)

The original Rubik's Cube patent is for the Rubik's Cube... you know, the 3x3? Rubik himself didn't even invent a 4x4 or a 5x5. Obviously that patent doesn't cover any of the bigcubes.


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## Hadley4000 (Jun 22, 2009)

jcuber said:


> I hope you mean 4x4 and 5x5...





If he meant 4x4, then keep in mind that Meffert's 4x4 is the pre-tooled Rubik's 4x4. I don't know if the pre-tooled is still under patent.


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## luke1984 (Jun 22, 2009)

AvGalen said:


> In situations like these, you should follow this analysis:
> 
> 1) Has a patent been used?
> 2) Was the patentholder compensated?
> ...



I disagree. If the government would make bread illegal, would you be a bad person if you'd buy a bread? No, you wouldn't. Like I said before, the government is NOT a moral authority. There are lots of arguments to make why buying a knockoff would be "bad" but it being illegal is not one of them. 

Are your morals dictated by law?


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## panyan (Jun 23, 2009)

luke1984 said:


> Are your morals dictated by law?



mmmmm, good point, would i give away 40% of my inheritance if the law didnt dictate?


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## Kian (Jun 23, 2009)

panyan said:


> luke1984 said:
> 
> 
> > Are your morals dictated by law?
> ...



eww double taxation.


----------



## EE-Cuber (Jun 23, 2009)

Ethan Rosen said:


> endless_akatsuki said:
> 
> 
> > Ethan Rosen said:
> ...



International patent laws are barely recognized in China. You would be hard pressed to find some actual law that was broken according to the Chinese government. And even if you did, it wouldnt be enforced.


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## EE-Cuber (Jun 23, 2009)

AvGalen said:


> In situations like these, you should follow this analysis:
> 
> 1) Has a patent been used?
> 2) Was the patentholder compensated?
> ...



It is not illegal to buy something that violates a patent law. Consumers are not expected to have the expertise nor the resources to determine whether or not something is violating somebody's patent. When was the last time you checked out that all the synthetic & patented chemicals in your OTC pain meds were legit?

But I agree that these should not be purchased if they are known to violate patents.. just because it is immoral not illegal.


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## 04mucklowd (Jun 23, 2009)

I think that china is doing a fine job of making the 9x9
And verdes should hurry up


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## panyan (Jun 23, 2009)

04mucklowd said:


> I think that china is doing a fine job of making the 9x9
> And verdes should hurry up



thats the proper attitude to have, i completely agree


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## DcF1337 (Jun 23, 2009)

I'd buy a 9x9 just for non-cuber friends to gawk at it. Really.


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## TomZ (Jun 23, 2009)

panyan said:


> 04mucklowd said:
> 
> 
> > I think that china is doing a fine job of making the 9x9
> ...



Wether you like it or not, what those people (not China) is doing, is ILLEGAL. How can you go about saying that's a fine job?

Secondly, what makes you think you can tell mr. Verdes to 'hurry up'? He doesn't owe you anything, but you owe him for making his great cubes and mechanism available to us all.

"It is not illegal to buy something that violates a patent law. Consumers are not expected to have the expertise nor the resources to determine whether or not something is violating somebody's patent. When was the last time you checked out that all the synthetic & patented chemicals in your OTC pain meds were legit?"

I'm pretty sure that knowingly buying something that is counterfeit IS illegal. If you don't know that's a different story but that doesn't apply here, right?


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## DcF1337 (Jun 23, 2009)

TomZ said:


> Wether you like it or not, what those people (not China) is doing, is ILLEGAL. How can you go about saying that's a fine job?
> 
> Secondly, what makes you think you can tell mr. Verdes to 'hurry up'? He doesn't owe you anything, but you owe him for making his great cubes and mechanism available to us all.
> 
> ...



No offence but I think you're being too harsh. You take little comments way too seriously. You can be anti-knockoff all the way and complain all you want, but business still happens. If someone really wants to buy something, you can't stop him, can you? He might have a change of heart by listening to you but the chances of that are rather slim. 

Will buying counterfeit puzzles get you arrested? Or fined, at least?


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## xEscapeFatex (Jun 23, 2009)

Honestly, i would probably buy a crappy Verdes (NOT LIKELY AT ALL!) against a better Chinese knockoff for the reason of brand loyalty and hope of them mass producing a V8 (haha punny) V10, V11, because they have had the deigns drawn up ever since the patents have been out. Verdes was the first to ever come out with a higher order than a 5x5x5 so we should show respect to him and not buy a knockoff that could tempt buyers to go toward that than a real verdes cube because the the knockoff came out first.


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## DcF1337 (Jun 23, 2009)

xEscapeFatex said:


> Honestly, i would probably buy a crappy Verdes (NOT LIKELY AT ALL!) against a better Chinese knockoff for the reason of brand loyalty and hope of them mass producing a V8 (haha punny) V10, V11, because they have had the deigns drawn up ever since the patents have been out. Verdes was the first to ever come out with a higher order than a 5x5x5 so we should show respect to him and not buy a knockoff that could tempt buyers to go toward that than a real verdes cube because the the knockoff came out first.



While some people buy Chinese 9x9s and post reviews and what not, we just wait here, frantically hoping that Verdes releases a V9?

I wouldn't mind doing that, but it's really tempting, you know.


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## endless_akatsuki (Jun 23, 2009)

lol, luckily for me, I don't solve big cubes, and I don't really have much money, so it's not tempting at all for me


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## TomZ (Jun 23, 2009)

DcF1337 said:


> No offence but I think you're being too harsh.


No offence taken.



DcF1337 said:


> You take little comments way too seriously.


Generally, taking things you read on the internet seriously is a bad idea.



DcF1337 said:


> You can be anti-knockoff all the way and complain all you want, but business still happens. If someone really wants to buy something, you can't stop him, can you? He might have a change of heart by listening to you but the chances of that are rather slim.


Besides my internet reputation, what do I have to loose (or gain for that matter)?



DcF1337 said:


> Will buying counterfeit puzzles get you arrested? Or fined, at least?


It's likely it won't but since when is a low chance of getting caught a reason to do something?


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## DcF1337 (Jun 23, 2009)

I wanted to rebut but I don't think my points are making any sense. I'll just stop here while I can.

I used to want to be loyal to Verdes and only buy their V-Cubes, but later I thought it wouldn't harm anyone to buy the Chinese 7x7, so I planned to.

Now, however, I'm not so sure. To be the loyal Verdes supporter without the 9x9, or the selfish criminal(?) with the 9x9?


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## xEscapeFatex (Jun 23, 2009)

Ya, it can be a little annoying, but worth it, cause i would rather have the original.


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## panyan (Jun 23, 2009)

this is the original thread thranslated:

http://209.85.227.132/translate_c?hl=en&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http://bbs.mf8.com.cn/viewthread.php%3Ftid%3D31774%26extra%3D%26page%3D1&prev=hp&rurl=translate.google.com&usg=ALkJrhit0YPiP__kEWsvVG49xzAfrzzoKQ


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## Jason (Jun 23, 2009)

I also agree that buying a knock-off 9x9 is tempting, but at the end of the day, one question to be asked is this: How will my purchase (and the purchase of many other people) of a knock-off cube affect cubing in future? The chances are that if everybody starts buying knock-offs, people that come up with ingenious, orginal ideas probabaly won't bother bringing them to the market, knowing the personnal and financial investment required. That means no more (or at least less) new mass-produced puzzles, that's the bottom line, and that would be a very sad thing.
So for example, Katsuhiko Okamoto brought the floppy cube and the void cube to the market. He has designed many other great puzzles that I would love to own. The thing is void cubes are being knocked-off. By buying KOs, we're shooting ourselves in the foot. The result being that Katsuhiko may decide that it isn't worth bringing his other puzzles to the market.

This is a very selfish point of view, but the reason I don't buy Knock-offs of new puzzles is I want to make sure that I see as many new puzzles hitting the market.


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## Ethan Rosen (Jun 23, 2009)

@Jason: FINALLY someone else gets it.



04mucklowd said:


> I think that china is doing a fine job of making the 9x9
> And verdes should hurry up



You should be ashamed of yourself


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## EE-Cuber (Jun 23, 2009)

TomZ said:


> I'm pretty sure that knowingly buying something that is counterfeit IS illegal. If you don't know that's a different story but that doesn't apply here, right?



What you say is true in the US. However, we are not talking about a counterfeit cube. It would be counterfeit if the Chinese knock off were trying to sell them *AS V Cubes*

But instead they are probably selling them as their own name brand and so we have a case of copied design (possibly violating patents) but not counterfeit. This is not illegal to sell or buy. Verdes may try and file suit against them but good luck with that in China.

Also, it is not clear to me that any patent has been violated. It is possible that the cubes have accomplished the 9x9 mechanism in a different innovative way. I seriously doubt it but its not impossible I suppose. I have not studied either mechanism nor gone through the patents in detail so I am not qualified to mention a violation. Its only suspicion at this time.


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## TomZ (Jun 23, 2009)

EE-Cuber said:


> What you say is true in the US. However, we are not talking about a counterfeit cube. It would be counterfeit if the Chinese knock off were trying to sell them *AS V Cubes*


Oops. Wrong choice of words.



EE-Cuber said:


> But instead they are probably selling them as their own name brand and so we have a case of copied design (possibly violating patents) but not counterfeit. This is not illegal to sell or buy. Verdes may try and file suit against them but good luck with that in China.





Wikipedia said:


> In United States law, an infringement may occur where the defendant has made, used, sold, offered to sell, or imported an infringing invention or its equivalent.[3] One also commits indirect infringement if he actively and knowingly induces another to infringe, and is liable for that infringement. Types of "indirect infringement" include "contributory infringement" and "induced infringement."


Obviously selling is illegal, and buying could constitute 'induced infringement'. Regardless of its legality, it's *unethical*.



EE-Cuber said:


> Also, it is not clear to me that any patent has been violated. It is possible that the cubes have accomplished the 9x9 mechanism in a different innovative way. I seriously doubt it but its not impossible I suppose. I have not studied either mechanism nor gone through the patents in detail so I am not qualified to mention a violation. Its only suspicion at this time.


Wait... Did you actually read the first post of this topic? It shows pictures of the cube's mechanism.

@Jason & Ethan: Wohoo!


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## Pitzu (Jun 23, 2009)

Don't let Mr. Hughey to get one!


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## Mike Hughey (Jun 23, 2009)

Pitzu said:


> Don't let Mr. Hughey to get one!



See, I'm afraid if I don't get one, you'll beat me to it.


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## MatsBergsten (Jun 23, 2009)

Mike Hughey said:


> Pitzu said:
> 
> 
> > Don't let Mr. Hughey to get one!
> ...



Have either of you two even estimated the time it will take one of you to solve it blind??
2-3 hours?


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## Mike Hughey (Jun 23, 2009)

MatsBergsten said:


> Mike Hughey said:
> 
> 
> > Pitzu said:
> ...



A 7x7x7 is 212 pieces to solve. A 9x9x9 is 380 pieces. Considering my best 7x7x7 2-cube multi attempts have taken around 3 hours, I would think I should be able to at least match that. So yeah, 3 hours should work. 2 1/2 might be possible.


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## luke1984 (Jun 23, 2009)

TomZ said:


> EE-Cuber said:
> 
> 
> > What you say is true in the US. However, we are not talking about a counterfeit cube. It would be counterfeit if the Chinese knock off were trying to sell them *AS V Cubes*
> ...



You seem to be the only other person who "gets it".


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## Paul Wagner (Jun 23, 2009)

EE-Cuber said:


> AvGalen said:
> 
> 
> > In situations like these, you should follow this analysis:
> ...


WRONG, you live in the US so marijuana is illegal for you as well. It's an illegal product not under the same classification but it's an illegal product and it's illegal to buy it as well.


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## cuberman0312 (Jun 23, 2009)

ThatGuy said:


> Why do they skip the evens? Can someone explain it in detail?


even cubes are harder to make rather than odd cubes. That would explain why the v-cube 6 sucks


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## veazer (Jun 23, 2009)

DcF1337 said:


> I'd buy a 9x9 just for non-cuber friends to gawk at it. Really.



I second that.


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## Ton (Jun 23, 2009)

AvGalen said:


> In situations like these, you should follow this analysis:
> 
> 1) Has a patent been used?
> 2) Was the patentholder compensated?
> ...




Well we are not lawyers, we can not make statements that something is illegal. Chinese patent regulation is quite different 

China is a first-to-file system... see more on this in articles below

"There are three types of patent granted in China - patents of invention, utility model, and industrial design."

"China, unlike the United States, is a first-to-file system. This means that if two inventors file a patent application for the same innovation, the first to file the application with SIPO will be granted the patent even if the other inventor was the first to invent"

This article explains it more details

So the legal question is: 
-is it legal to buy a legal Chinese products from outside China for import when there exist a patent in your country

I guess, yes this is illegal for a company where there is a patent in that country to import a clone copy, for the domestic market it is a legal product

Some related to this
Clones are perfectly legal, says Shuanghuan

For cubers it is the same dilemma as bootlegs  

My conclusion as a non-lawyer:
It will be almost impossible to prosecuting individuals when they buy online at a Chinese website a legal -in China- Chinese product. I do not think individuals can be hold legally responsible for patent infringements -even if it is proven- 

In the end it will be moral/ethical issue for us


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## EE-Cuber (Jun 23, 2009)

Ton said:


> AvGalen said:
> 
> 
> > In situations like these, you should follow this analysis:
> ...




Exactly, some of the folks just arent understanding this.

Illegal to violate patents and sell for profit - YES, certainly in US.

Illegal to BUY? - probably NOT. Would you ever get prosecuted even if it were illegal - NO

Unethical to BUY? - Yes of course you shoudl NOT purchase based on ground of ethics only *if* it is true that a patent is violated.

Can anyone claim that the internal mechanism is exactly copied by just looking at a photo -Not really, so I dont understand what all the whoo-ha is about it violating a patent? Who here has examined Verdes patent & compared it with a disassmbled chinese knockoff that they have held for close examination?

I havn't so I dont know about who violated what. I wouldnt buy one if it was established and known to violate any patents but until then . . .


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## EE-Cuber (Jun 23, 2009)

Paul Wagner said:


> WRONG, you live in the US so marijuana is illegal for you as well. It's an illegal product not under the same classification but it's an illegal product and it's illegal to buy it as well.



Yes of course Marijuana is illegal..umm thats not the same situation as a consumer purchasing a knock-off product.


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## veazer (Jun 23, 2009)

EE-Cuber said:


> Paul Wagner said:
> 
> 
> > WRONG, you live in the US so marijuana is illegal for you as well. It's an illegal product not under the same classification but it's an illegal product and it's illegal to buy it as well.
> ...



Yeah... violating illegal drug laws and violating international patent agreements are just a little different.


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## DcF1337 (Jun 24, 2009)

Damn, you guys are pretty hardcore when it comes to debating.


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## TomZ (Jun 24, 2009)

"Can anyone claim that the internal mechanism is exactly copied by just looking at a photo -Not really, so I dont understand what all the whoo-ha is about it violating a patent? Who here has examined Verdes patent & compared it with a disassmbled chinese knockoff that they have held for close examination?"
While nobody but a court can make the decision, it's just blatantly obvious it violates the patent. The V-Patent has a bunch of drawings in it that match the cube (near) exactly. The only difference is they added a bump near the corner foot, which to me shows they knew they were violating a patent and added something on their own to 'evade' the law.

"Illegal to BUY? - probably NOT. Would you ever get prosecuted even if it were illegal - NO"
I don't know about your laws, but *knowingly* buying an illegal product can't be legal, can it? It's very unlikely they'll come after you (it will be near impossible to prove you knew it was illegal) but that doesn't make it right.

"Yeah... violating illegal drug laws and violating international patent agreements are just a little different."
Nah. Over here marijuana is perfectly legal but as for those V-Cubes, not so much.
A better comparison would be buying a stolen bike. If I buy a bike for $100 and it turns out to be stolen, I'll not be charged. If I buy the same bike at $25 I'll be guilty of knowingly buying stolen goods.


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## Paul Wagner (Jun 24, 2009)

Well most of us are in USA, and not Europe. But the internal mech is the same, look at the 6x6 and 7x7 chinese.


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## Swoncen (Jun 24, 2009)

Paul Wagner said:


> Well most of us are in USA, and not Europe. But the internal mech is the same, look at the 6x6 and 7x7 chinese.



Why do you think that most of us live in the USA?
From the WCA:

USA: 1707
Europe: 1711
Asia: 2383


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## TobiasDaneels (Jun 24, 2009)

Swoncen said:


> Paul Wagner said:
> 
> 
> > Well most of us are in USA, and not Europe. But the internal mech is the same, look at the 6x6 and 7x7 chinese.
> ...



I think he means forum users, and I think it's true.
Most users on this forum are American I think.
But I don't see the point of that statement...


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## Swoncen (Jun 24, 2009)

TobiasDaneels said:


> Swoncen said:
> 
> 
> > Paul Wagner said:
> ...



That is just a guess.


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## Escher (Jun 24, 2009)

Swoncen said:


> TobiasDaneels said:
> 
> 
> > Swoncen said:
> ...



How do you know the ones from the US aren't just the noisier ones? 
EDIT: wink = sarcasm


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## TobiasDaneels (Jun 24, 2009)

Swoncen said:


> TobiasDaneels said:
> 
> 
> > Swoncen said:
> ...



Indeed, that's why I used "I think".
I even used it 3 times on 2 lines of text.


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## Am1n- (Jun 24, 2009)

Escher said:


> Swoncen said:
> 
> 
> > TobiasDaneels said:
> ...



+1


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## panyan (Jun 24, 2009)

Am1n- said:


> Escher said:
> 
> 
> > Swoncen said:
> ...



+1

lol, this topic just got more intersting! i have to agree, the americans seem to have larger mouths if you know what i mean!


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## Escher (Jun 24, 2009)

panyan said:


> +1
> 
> lol, this topic just got more intersting! i have to agree, the americans seem to have larger mouths if you know what i mean!



Oh no! It was just meant to be a little jokey dig, not an unfair racial stereotype!


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## panyan (Jun 24, 2009)

Escher said:


> panyan said:
> 
> 
> > +1
> ...



cant take it back now! it is in the pages of internet history (and google cache!)


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## Mike Hughey (Jun 24, 2009)

panyan said:


> Am1n- said:
> 
> 
> > Escher said:
> ...


<looking at my post count> uh, yeah.

+1


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## Zaxef (Jun 24, 2009)

Don't forget Canada!


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## Ton (Jun 24, 2009)

TomZ said:


> While nobody but a court can make the decision, it's just blatantly obvious it violates the patent.


Obvious, probably true for all country except China, which has -my opinon- very strange patent filing rules. 



TomZ said:


> I don't know about your laws, but *knowingly* buying an illegal product can't be legal, can it? It's very unlikely they'll come after you (it will be near impossible to prove you knew it was illegal) but that doesn't make it right.


It is a legal Chinese product, for domestic market it is a legal product. I do not think legally consumers can be responsible to check a possible patent infringement



TomZ said:


> A better comparison would be buying a stolen bike. If I buy a bike for $100 and it turns out to be stolen, I'll not be charged. If I buy the same bike at $25 I'll be guilty of knowingly buying stolen goods.


Well we are not lawyers but the fact remains for the producers it is a legal Chinese product

However I agree the Chinese patent regulation is very unfair for producers and inventors. Still in China it is legal????


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## panyan (Jun 24, 2009)

Ton said:


> TomZ said:
> 
> 
> > While nobody but a court can make the decision, it's just blatantly obvious it violates the patent.
> ...



and for that reason, we may all enjoy the F9


----------



## ben1996123 (Jun 25, 2009)

wow. thats all i have to say.


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## endless_akatsuki (Jun 25, 2009)

ben1996123 said:


> wow. thats all i have to say.



Thank you.

Anyway, nothing anyone says is going to change anyone's opinion. This is just another KO thing from China.
If you don't want to buy it, don't buy it, jeez.


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## darkzelkova (Jun 25, 2009)

How many of you that are against buying this download movies?


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## kastellorizo (Jun 26, 2009)

panyan said:


> and for that reason, we may all enjoy the F9




Yeap, and anyone else who has no ethics and loves to help thieves and criminals.

I will step in to remind everyone here of the new October PCT patent-laws
which will actually *only* affect China for obvious reasons. V-Cubes *has*
a patent in China and the new laws should be able to reduce (and hopefully
eliminate), not just the fake products, but more than 20,000 fake "local"
patents for many other products besides puzzles. 

For people who own fake products and live in countries where such products 
are illegal to produce (while in some countries it is illegal to even possess!),
I would advice them to be more careful, instead of being PROUD or SMART
for supporting criminals. Without the designers, most of the puzzles would not
exist, all those forums and communities would not exist. Going against the
fundamental building blocks of such communities is neither smart, nor cool. 

As a final note, allow me to add that all those people who are behind bars,
are not there because they wanted to be there. They are there because
they *thought* they could get away with it. Simple as that.

Even after October, it will still take time to get those criminals, but the 
battle to help the original designers will be "slightly" easier, that's for sure.




Pantazis


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## Ton (Jun 26, 2009)

kastellorizo said:


> Yeap, and anyone else who has no ethics and loves to help thieves and criminals.



My opinion is that the patent constructions is criminal in China, this make it possible using other inventors ideas, modify it and get a legal patent in China and make money out of it. If this happened in this case I can not tell or proof, I can only assume

Laws are different in many countries, where something is legal in one country is illegal in an other country. I think we should appose the patent constrtuction in China and not accuse people or producers, now we can only help Mr Verdes, with buying his products. Hope to see a V9x9 soon


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## kastellorizo (Jun 26, 2009)

Ton said:


> kastellorizo said:
> 
> 
> > Yeap, and anyone else who has no ethics and loves to help thieves and criminals.
> ...



I agree with most of your points, except a couple of them:

1. It is more than obvious that this 9x9x9 uses the Verdes mechanism.
Well, Unless you know anyone else who came up with anything close even
to a well working 6x6x6 the past 25 years...
2. A criminal is a criminal. Just because it is "legal" (because of internal 
corruption) in a specific country does not lessen the ethical violation.
How can someone be a criminal in almost all countries and an honored person
in one specific country anyway?


Pantazis


----------



## Ton (Jun 26, 2009)

kastellorizo said:


> Ton said:
> 
> 
> > kastellorizo said:
> ...



1) I agree, I assume since I have problems with accusing people without proof even if it looks obvious
2) A criminal is a criminal is not true, criminal is a legal term, where in one country consuming alcohol is illegal , which makes him a criminal is in an other country it is a no issue
So yes it is possible -legally- to be a criminal in almost all countries and not in one specific country and vice versa.

The term unethical instead of criminal is more applicable in this situation as the persons involved use legal constructions in China. Still it is unethical in my opinion.


----------



## AvGalen (Jun 26, 2009)

kastellorizo said:


> I will step in to remind everyone here of the new October PCT patent-laws
> which will actually *only* affect China for obvious reasons.


Could you step in a little more and actually say what this is all about? I didn't find anything about a new october patent law at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patent_Cooperation_Treaty or anywhere else and I don't think I am the only one that needs more than a "reminder" about this.

I buy from legal places (as far as I know) but I have no idea if those places are run by "honored persons". Just like most people here I would like to get my hands on more puzzles and I prefer to do that in a legal way. But I am realistic enough to know that if these products become widely available from other sources than Verdes people will start buying them, especially when they are not available from Verdes

Sidenote1: Verdes really should improve their communication to current and future customers.
Sidenote2: Criminal and ethical are only losely related. In Holland it is legal to buy and use Marihuana, prostitution is also legal (that includes taxes ) and adultry isn't illegal. But smoking marihuana is looked down upon, nobody ever admits going to a prostitute (but they all have a friend that did) and adultry is a big NoNO


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## kastellorizo (Jun 26, 2009)

AvGalen said:


> kastellorizo said:
> 
> 
> > I will step in to remind everyone here of the new October PCT patent-laws
> ...





Fair enough, here is all the information you need:

http://twistypuzzles.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=12933


It is a good read, as all the points are included. It is clear that chinese people
are not criminals, but sadly, just like every country, there are few who would
do anything for money.

The comparison with marijuana and prostitution is not the best for this case.
Because in this case, it is only one country which does not follow the rules
(which they have actually agree to abide!)



Pantazis


----------

