# Speedcubing... are we talented?



## NicoCuber (Jul 22, 2012)

Speedcubing? you consider this a talent? I say to you to solve cubes: 2x2, 3x3, 4x4, 5x5, 7x7, Pyramix, blinfold, etc..
Or other example :
just solve a Rubik's Cube sub 10..... is a talent?
For example:
Someone who knows how to solve a Rubik's Cube 3 in 1 minute 30 seconds. He is someone who has a talent for you?
If so
Someone who can build cubes: 2x2, 3x3, 4x4, 5x5, 7x7 ... to .......
Anyway. What do you know do (Speedcubing)? and do you think you have talent?

Well solve a Rubik's Cube is the reach of any but does not everyone?


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## benskoning (Jul 22, 2012)

Hmm... Ineresting and if we are talented then what makes us talented at Cubing? And is it a learned talent. This raises a lot of questions.


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## A Leman (Jul 22, 2012)

No, I do not think we are talented. A talent is a natural ability. We did not naturally pick up a cube and sub-15 solve it on our first try. Cubing is more like a trained skill that we developed with hours of practice. There are exceptions, for example, things like a brute force blindsolve with the LBL method (before you have a clue what a memory method is) shows some talent in visual perception and memory.


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## NicoCuber (Jul 22, 2012)

A Leman said:


> No, I do not think we are talented. A talent is a natural ability. We did not naturally pick up a cube and sub-15 solve it on our first try. Cubing is more like a trained skill that we developed with hours of practice. There are exceptions, for example, things like a brute force blindsolve with the LBL method (before you have a clue what a memory method is) shows some talent in visual perception and memory.


The big question : talent is born or made? born(talent naturally) or made (our case).we practice to be talented.


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## Stefan (Jul 22, 2012)

NicoCuber said:


> we practice to be talented.



No, I practice to be skilled. Talent is such an annoying ambiguous word.


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## Dene (Jul 22, 2012)

Provide a definition for "talent" then I'll answer the question... although I think then the question will answer itself.


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## sneaklyfox (Jul 22, 2012)

A Leman said:


> No, I do not think we are talented. A talent is a natural ability. We did not naturally pick up a cube and sub-15 solve it on our first try. Cubing is more like a trained skill that we developed with hours of practice. There are exceptions, for example, things like a brute force blindsolve with the LBL method (before you have a clue what a memory method is) shows some talent in visual perception and memory.



A talented musician probably cannot pick up a violin and play a Tchaikovsky Concerto on the first try. They still have to put in hours of practice but that doesn't mean it's just a trained skill. I believe there is such a thing as talent. It is not just learned. A talented cuber doesn't take as long to get fast because they have a natural ability that others don't. So you have those people who from not being cubers at all start learning and within a few months are already sub-20 vs the people who only reach sub-20 after a few years. It's possible that they can at some point be equally skilled, but the first person had the talent. And also, there is a limit to the cuber who did it with hard work. I'm not sure where that limit is in terms of cubing, but I think there is one. And after they reach their limit, no amount of practicing will do very much.


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## HelpCube (Jul 22, 2012)

Stefan said:


> No, I practice to be skilled. Talent is such an annoying ambiguous word.



100% agreed. I hate it when people say, "Oh, you are so gifted to be born with that talent". Or even worse, "You should be so thankful God gave you that talent". While I believe in God, I can see that through practice is how I improve, not through natural abilities.


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## A Leman (Jul 22, 2012)

sneaklyfox said:


> And after they reach their limit, no amount of practicing will do very much.


That is not a belief I could live by. Especially with a hobby like cubing. A defeatist mentality can sometimes be the only thing holding someone back. If I am dispointed with where I am, then I try even more to get better!


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## MWilson (Jul 22, 2012)

I believe there are certain "born that way" arguments for things that are dominantly physical, such being very short playing basketball, but that stuff is obvious. The issue I have with "born that way" when it comes to dominantly mental skills is that there are many ways of doing things mentally.

For example, a short person may have their own strong qualities physically, such as lung capacity. That doesn't mean they will benefit from putting the ball against their lips and attempting to blow it over the heads of their opponents. There is really only one way to put a ball in a basket from across the court, and that is a simple arch. You can increase the angle of the shot from the ground along with increased force and still get it in, but there isn't much else you can do because it's not conceptual, it's physical.

However, when it comes to something mental like speedsolving, there are always many different ways of approaching learning and practicing. Everyone has a chance to make use of their own strengths and their own way of seeing things. If one way isn't working for you, try another.



sneaklyfox said:


> And also, there is a limit to the cuber who did it with hard work. I'm not sure where that limit is in terms of cubing, but I think there is one. And after they reach their limit, no amount of practicing will do very much.


A solver can definitely get to the point of not improving at all no matter how much they practice, but that's what deliberate practice is for. Mass solving reaches one's potential, and deliberate practice introduces new potential to reach.

A simple example is full OLL. One can practice hundreds of solves a day for months, but if they never actually take the time to deliberately learn one look OLL, they will never know it. They're not going to just wake up one day and magically know 50 new algorithms just because they practiced X amount of hours. That's an obvious example of how just solving over and over will not cause improvement in all possible areas.

A more complex example is multi-slotting or x-cross. If a person only ever figures out two or three pieces of their cross and then starts the solve, they can practice like that for years if they want to and they'll never go further than that. Only when they force themselves to actually take the time to figure out the full cross, and later the x-cross, will they increase their potential. After they take that time, they can then just mass solve to improve and reach their newly created potential. Multi-slotting is the same. How can one improve at optimizing the solving two pairs when they just insert one pair after another as fast as they can, never even considering the next pair until the current one is done?

My rule of thumb is that if what I'm practicing is not frustratingly difficult, then I'm doing it wrong. As soon as I realize I can watch TV while practicing, that's the time to find something new to introduce to the solve and make it hard again. Right now I'm able to see two or three pairs at a time, and I'm practicing picking which one to do next based on the orientation of the edges. If the top sticker (or front/back for edges in the E layer) is not one of the colors of the Z axis, then it's not oriented and I'll need to do a fancy insert or a rotation, so I do the other pairs where the top edge color _is_ the same or opposite the front color. It's hard, or it was, but I'm becoming able to only have to do one rotation per solve if any at all by solving all pairs with correct orientation before rotating. I've even started to use hammer-ins to reorient F2L edges that would otherwise require a rotation, and so I avoid rotations and awkward algs. I've also been looking at ZZ and EOLine, and forcing myself through the inspection of five full EOLines every day, and it's paying off even though it was hell just trying to keep track of bad edges for the first few days.

I think many people just become complacent without realizing it, and then think they've hit their limit or that they're close.


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## sa11297 (Jul 22, 2012)

I didn't read all the posts, but IMO, I do not care whether its considered a talent or skill or whatever. All I know is that it is impressive and others feel the same way. That's enough for me.


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## sneaklyfox (Jul 22, 2012)

A Leman said:


> That is not a belief I could live by. Especially with a hobby like cubing. A defeatist mentality can sometimes be the only thing holding someone back. If I am dispointed with where I am, then I try even more to get better!



Oh, I'm not saying that we should start thinking, "Oh, this must be where my limit is!" at any point in time. Not at all. Anyway, it's known that sometimes there are harder barriers to cross. But it's silly to think that there is no limit because obviously there has to be one. For exaggeration to make my point, I do not believe any human could possibly solve a normally scrambled cube in 0.01 seconds. Of course, that sounds ridiculous, but my point is that there is a limit somewhere. But we can never believe that we have reached it. Anyway, there is always the human error factor so new world records will continue to be made. 5.66 is hard to beat, but it will be beaten one day. If not today then tomorrow.


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## Twofu2 (Jul 22, 2012)

I believe that learning to solve a puzzle is a skill that can be learned by anyone. It's like a language or a sport, you can learn the basics. Suppose you were learning a new language. You will not start off fluent at all, and you might struggle. However, as you practice and hone your skill with that language, you would become more skilled at it and more fluent. The same applies to speedcubing. Anyone can learn the basics, but to travel down the path to becoming more and more advanced, its work that gets you along. You have to have the mindset and the want to progress, not necessarily born with that talent. Talent is not the most important aspect, it's the kind of thinking that you have to possess to inspire yourself onward. 

Maybe, think of it like a sport. For a runner to improve his/her cardiovascular function, they would have to train. It's not easy training either, as improvement is scarce if you only work half-way or half-heartly. But if they truly wanted to improve then they wouldn't let that idea of having talent or not impede them, instead they would put in hard work to achieve that dream of theirs. In the end, what I wanted to say was that this innate talent idea is not necessary for a speedcuber to progress, like other things in life, its the determination and work you put that gets you somewhere. There are definitely limits, but could it be your mentality holding you back instead?


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## izovire (Jul 22, 2012)

I never really learned how to solve a cube with experience... I was born with the innate knowledge instead.


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## MarcelP (Jul 22, 2012)

I would say if you are 3 years old and know how to solve a cube, you have a BIG talent.

[video=youtube_share;DUdq2vqybpU]http://youtu.be/DUdq2vqybpU[/video]


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## balloon6610 (Jul 22, 2012)

I don't think talent is any helpful. Do you say feliks has a talent because he set a several world record ? The answer is no just look at how much he practice per day nad you will see that it's not easy to get faster you need times to practice, To learn a new thing and most importantly your desired to be faster and do your best to acheive it. I sub 20 in 2 months doen't mean i have a talent but because i practice more than 5 hours a day (luckily that's when my school time is end and i had 3 months before the school will started again so i have a lot of time practicing) Same as everyone. If you want to sub xx and can't, Don't swearing or anything just practice hard and you will got that time some day that's what i believe.

(I hope you can understand my english text )


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## psaini1999 (Jul 22, 2012)

I don't consider it to be a talent .At first I thought that I am such a brainiac and I am a genius that I can solve it then I thought that it is no big deal because I learnt it . If I was able to figure out at least how to solve a layer by myself then I would consider myself talented.


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## NicoCuber (Jul 22, 2012)

psaini1999 said:


> I don't consider it to be a talent .At first I thought that I am such a brainiac and I am a genius that I can solve it then I thought that it is no big deal because I learnt it . If I was able to figure out at least how to solve a layer by myself then I would consider myself talented.



Well one thing is to solve the Rubik's Cube (3x3x3) ... maybe that would not be a talent ... but solving cubes 2x2, 3x3, 4x4, 5x5, 7x7, etc and some blindfold. Would that such a talent? Because not everyone does it ... But anyone can learn.


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## Stefan (Jul 22, 2012)

psaini1999 said:


> If I was able to figure out at least how to solve a layer by myself then I would consider myself talented.



Just like you have a talent for walking and talking and breathing.



sneaklyfox said:


> A talented cuber doesn't take as long to get fast because they have a natural ability that others don't.



Natural ability, or maybe previous experience with similar things?



sneaklyfox said:


> there is a limit to the cuber who did it with hard work



Are you implying that the "talented" cuber doesn't have a limit.



HelpCube said:


> I hate it when people say, "Oh, you are so gifted to be born with that talent". Or even worse, "You should be so thankful God gave you that talent".



Good thing that hasn't happened to me yet, that would **** me off so much.


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## JianhanC (Jul 22, 2012)

Feliks and 5BLD are probably in the 'talented' category. But no, I think to be able to solve a Rubik's Cube under 10 seconds is skill.


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## Stefan (Jul 22, 2012)

JianhanC said:


> But no, I think to be able to solve a Rubik's Cube under 10 seconds is skill.



Of course it's skill, nobody disagrees with that.


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## JianhanC (Jul 22, 2012)

Stefan said:


> Of course it's skill, nobody disagrees with that.



Yes, I'm just stating my opinion on the OP's question whether us speedcubers have talent or not. Yes, there are talented people among us, and all of us who can solve a cube achieved it through determination and hard work, talent is a minor factor in being able to solve a cube.


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## Escher (Jul 22, 2012)

I think the perception of talent is created by how 'intuitively' a person thinks about and does practise, rather than any genetic advantage, at least in a mental game like cubing.


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## Stefan (Jul 22, 2012)

JianhanC said:


> Yes, I'm just stating my opinion on the OP's question whether us speedcubers have talent or not.



Well, skill and talent aren't mutually exclusive, so saying it's skill does *not* say whether talent is involved.


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## NicoCuber (Jul 22, 2012)

you think you are talented? if you had the chance to go to a talent show ... do you go?


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## applemobile (Jul 22, 2012)

So someone is only a talented guitar player if thy pick up a guitar and can instantly play? If they have lessons it's cheating? Anyone can learn to do anything, but it takes talent to be the best. It's not far off calling a child born with a disease 'brave'


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## sneaklyfox (Jul 22, 2012)

Stefan said:


> Natural ability, or maybe previous experience with similar things?


One or both.



Stefan said:


> Are you implying that the "talented" cuber doesn't have a limit.


Sorry, I mean that the talented cuber has a higher limit than the lesser talented person. Talent is also relative. When you say they are talented it means above a certain perceived level and not talented is below a certain perceived level. I guess I made the original comment because I was thinking of music. You can learn technique by practicing. Some people are more natural at it than others, but technique is different from music (artistic side). It is more intuitive and very very difficult to teach (if it's even possible). I don't think anyone as reached their absolute limit. They can be infinitely close, but not quite there. I'm thinking Zeno's paradox...


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## Stefan (Jul 22, 2012)

sneaklyfox said:


> I don't think anyone as reached their absolute limit. They can be infinitely close, but not quite there.



What if I'm 0.001 seconds from my absolute limit and then I get a little lucky and improve by 0.002 seconds? What kind of limit is that?


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## PandaCuber (Jul 22, 2012)

Stefan said:


> What if I'm 0.001 seconds from my absolute limit and then I get a little lucky and improve by 0.002 seconds? What kind of limit is that?



Then 0.001 isnt your absolute limit.


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## KingTim96 (Jul 23, 2012)

I dont know if someone else has posted this or not. but i see cubing as another muscle in the body. with proper work out(a.k.a practice) your muscle(times/averages of 5, etc.) will get stronger and stuff. make any sense to anyone?


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## sneaklyfox (Jul 23, 2012)

drewsopchak said:


> That is the most demeaning thing someone can say regarding anther's ability. Credit their facility to their hard work, not some undetectable fantasy magician.



But talent does come from God. I sure wasn't the one who decided I would be naturally good at math and music, for example. And I don't think the comment is meant to be demeaning at all. In humility, I know that my abilities didn't come on its own but certainly I had to work hard to be where I am. But I suppose you could take offense to that comment if you did not believe in God... I don't think anyone who does believe in God would take offense. I think accurately, God gives us gifts but we have to use them and practice them to become skilled. Otherwise the gifts mean nothing. So it requires both.


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## mtravilla (Jul 23, 2012)

Dene said:


> Provide a definition for "talent" then I'll answer the question... although I think then the question will answer itself.



Agreed. Like Stefan said as well, "talent" is an _annoying ambiguous word._ According to Merriam-Webster, "talent" is more of an "ability" that utilizes the brain from motor skills to creativity [this is me pretty much paraphrasing the definition].


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## Timothy Ng (Jul 23, 2012)

simple answer, NO, WE ARE NOT TALENTED!

Anyone can solve the cube IF THEY CAN BE BOTHERED TO LEARN HOW TO ACTUALLY SOLVE ONE!

Why did i even bother to start cubing even? i am always regretting now!


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## sneaklyfox (Jul 23, 2012)

Timothy Ng said:


> simple answer, NO, WE ARE NOT TALENTED!
> 
> Anyone can solve the cube IF THEY CAN BE BOTHERED TO LEARN HOW TO ACTUALLY SOLVE ONE!
> 
> Why did i even bother to start cubing even? i am always regretting now!



Just being able to solve the cube doesn't mean you're talented. And just because everyone could solve it doesn't mean that everyone who can isn't talented either. So probably most of us here are not so very talented but we are still able to solve it. I still think there are people among our community who are actually talented. See my posts regarding talent in music as an analogy - faster to learn and grasp concepts, etc. Blah blah...


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## CuberKyle (Jul 23, 2012)

Talent is found in the eyes of the viewer and those who know nothing or less in the subject of which the other is "talented" in.


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## drewsopchak (Jul 23, 2012)

tal·ent/ˈtalənt/
Noun:	

1 Natural aptitude or skill.
2 A person or people possessing such aptitude or skill


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## MarcelP (Jul 23, 2012)

Timothy Ng said:


> Why did i even bother to start cubing even? i am always regretting now!



I regret that I have not been cubing all my life. I have just started speedcubing a while ago. I really really enjoy cubing.


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## tx789 (Jul 23, 2012)

On talent shows they practise and learn thier activities


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## Dacuba (Jul 23, 2012)

Are Magic solvers talented?
Ah I see now why it has been removed 

*runsaway*

I don't know what exactly I should understand when I hear the word "talent". I think I am not talented at cubing. But noncubers think I am. What else do I need?


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## drewsopchak (Jul 23, 2012)

MarcelP said:


> I regret that I have not been cubing all my life. I have just started speedcubing a while ago. I really really enjoy cubing.



I agree. I don't understand Tim's comment at all....


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## Ickenicke (Jul 23, 2012)

Dacuba said:


> Are Magic solvers talented?



Yes, some of them are.


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## ZephyLynx (Jul 23, 2012)

I don't normally post, but a few things irritated me enough. 

Cubing is much more akin to a practiced skill than a natural talent. 



Stefan said:


> No, I practice to be skilled. Talent is such an annoying ambiguous word.



The problem with the vast majority of any argument is that the terms are poorly defined. Talent can mean a level of any skill that is rare, skills that arise naturally (more to do with DNA), skills that people obtained with less effort than most others, etc... Talent is a bit easier to define in more physical activities, but even then, it is hard to define. Generally, I think of "talent" as a level of skill that is rare or higher than most people (the result of hard work), and "natural talent" as a higher level of skill that has more to do with genetics. 



Thomas Edison said:


> Genius is one percent inspiration, ninety-nine percent perspiration.



In a lot of activities, "natural talent" plays a fairly minor role compared to experience, determination, and resources. 



sneaklyfox said:


> And also, there is a limit to the cuber who did it with hard work. I'm not sure where that limit is in terms of cubing, but I think there is one. And after they reach their limit, no amount of practicing will do very much.



I think having that mentality is really bad for the advancement of anything. There probably exists physical limits in cubing, but I don't see different limits for "talented" vs "non-talented" cubers. In many fields of science and engineering, the mentality to advancing a field comes from breaking limits, discovering/creating/improving.





sneaklyfox said:


> But talent does come from God. I sure wasn't the one who decided I would be naturally good at math and music, for example. And I don't think the comment is meant to be demeaning at all. In humility, I know that my abilities didn't come on its own but certainly I had to work hard to be where I am. But I suppose you could take offense to that comment if you did not believe in God... I don't think anyone who does believe in God would take offense. I think accurately, God gives us gifts but we have to use them and practice them to become skilled. Otherwise the gifts mean nothing. So it requires both.



That is a *very ethnocentric* statement there. I won't get into this, since that would diverge from the main topic at hand.

Skills and abilities evolve over time and circumstance. People tend to get better at things that they practice and do many times, unused skills get rusty, new skills can develop, etc... For the most part, with enough passion and determination anyone can achieve skills in whatever they desire, within reason (no unaided flight for you!).


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## Dacuba (Jul 23, 2012)

Ickenicke said:


> Yes, some of them are.



Of course some are. Same as some people are talented on pen spinning, random sport stuff, music, or solving Rubik's Cubes.
Everyone who wants to know if he's talented in anything should just ask himself honestly. If I ask myself about cubing, the answer is no. Am I being ignorant, or why does that feel simple for me?
Applying this to the question "Are People doing Speedcubing always talented in solving a Rubik's Cube?" the answer is no.
Maybe I just didn't understand the question or the word "talent" or both.



Spoiler



What preposition is used for "Being talented ... doing something"?


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## blakedacuber (Jul 23, 2012)

www.thefreedictionary.com said:


> . A marked innate ability, as for artistic accomplishment. See Synonyms at ability.
> 2.
> a. Natural endowment or ability of a superior quality.
> b. A person or group of people having such ability: The company makes good use of its talent.
> 3. A variable unit of weight and money used in ancient Greece, Rome, and the Middle East.


There's a definition of Talent


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## Cubetastic (Jul 23, 2012)

I'm not sure about you guys, but I'm ... Just kidding, in my opininion it's an acquired skill, that takes practice to become talented.


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## Petro Leum (Jul 23, 2012)

You need good visual thinking and of course the physical ability to move your fingers this fast.... but i would rather call that limitations you dont have instead of talent.


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## NicoCuber (Jul 24, 2012)

This video...Talent? Yes?...


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## insane569 (Jul 28, 2012)

Is it just me or is there a lot of faceless new guys? 
OT: I think being able to solve the cube is a talent. Think of it as, Stable times, My times are always under 20. Yea anyone can do that if they tried but since most people dont I am part of a small group. But there is still skill with it and some parts not talent. We practice to get this good and build our "skills" that keep us where we are. The part that isnt talent IMO is the cube being able to cut corners and turn well, Along with lucky scrambles.


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## Eazoon (Jul 28, 2012)

Speedsolving cubes is a talent, but we aren't naturally talented. I for one believe I at least am talented when it comes to learning fast, as well as most of you. For example, I taught myself to weave when I was 9 by reading the instructions and I obviously learned how to cube through youtube.


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