# Any more roux?



## 5BLD (Apr 14, 2011)

Ok, I am praying that I am not asking something silly, or that has been asked before...
Are there any extra little bits to add to the awesome but simple method that is roux? Like in fridrich, you can 'add on' MGLS, WV, VH, ZB etc. Little variations of the method. Can you somehow influence the second block during the first block? Or even influence both before even starting the blocks? Forcing CMLL skips during blocks? Combining steps? I am by no means an expert at all, but I have been experimenting and I find that making some premoves before the blocks is somewhat useful for reducing move count although it's not particularly practical(long inspection).


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## Kirjava (Apr 14, 2011)

non matching blocks, last six edges hacks, CLL+EO


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## 5BLD (Apr 14, 2011)

Lol what you just said inspired/reminded me to have a go at non matching blocks- thanks! What do you mean by LSE hacks? And would CLL+EO be done intuitively with double layer moves and M slices inserted (edit: just realised that it is very hard to do), or would it be algorithm based? I like the idea- it would allow looking ahead for L/R edges and stuff.


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## waffle=ijm (Apr 14, 2011)

roux optimized CLS into KCLL?


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## 5BLD (Apr 14, 2011)

But how do you go about doing that waffo? I need to eat more waffles- they help me work out acronyms. 
Oh i see what you mean. I bet no ones done this before, have they?
Edit: Ive spotted YOUR little article haha. I'm gonna read it now. Looks interesting


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## Kirjava (Apr 14, 2011)

5BLD said:


> And would CLL+EO be done intuitively with double layer moves and M slices inserted (edit: just realised that it is very hard to do), or would it be algorithm based?


 
Alg based and based on 'tweaking'. starting an alg with r instead of R to flip some edges, etc.

As for LSE Hax, there are a lot of random ones dotted around the forums. Mostly for forcing skips.


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## 5BLD (Apr 14, 2011)

Ahh I see what you mean! So like doing an M' before a sune would flip these (points to imaginary cube) edges because of the way the algorithm permutes the edges!It is an interesting concept. This all sounds familiar... Did I read it somewhere here before i joined the forums?
I am going to have a little go now, although I realize there's going to be a large number of cases- probably would learn them by discovering them rather than learning them from an alg sheet.


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## waffle=ijm (Apr 14, 2011)

Kirjava said:


> dotted around the forums.


 
lolpun?

Optimizing LSE is also a way to go. You don't really need more algs but it is an easy way to get fast.


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## 5BLD (Apr 14, 2011)

Yeah that's exactly what I was looking for waffo 
I am very lazy...
I noticed that 4a and 4b can be fused together quite easily...


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## FatBoyXPC (Apr 14, 2011)

That "M' before Sune then M because of the way it permutes edges" thing you mentioned is referred to as Fat Sune. You actually get 4 OLL cases out of that  I know you don't need to know OLL for roux, but I was just saying.


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## Cool Frog (Apr 14, 2011)

5BLD said:


> Yeah that's exactly what I was looking for waffo
> I am very lazy...
> I noticed that 4a and 4b can be fused together quite easily...


 
As in one fluent motion by looking ahead, or simultaneous (like a skip)?


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## Kirjava (Apr 14, 2011)

U'M'U2M2U2M'U
UM'U2MU2M2U'
UM'U2M2U2M'U'
U'M2U2MU2MU
UM'U2MU
RUR'UM'U2MURU'R'
M2U'M'U2M'U'M2
M2UM'U2M2U2MU'M2
RUR'UM2U2M2URU'R'
RU'r'U'M'UrUr'

Some I just thought up off the top of my head. Learn to recognise them when they appear.


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## thierce (Apr 14, 2011)

I think learning to solve LSE cases more effectively is pushing your speed pretty much 

Does anyone else know this phenomenon:
When starting LSE, I sometimes do AUF before turning the M-Slice without being able to give a reason!
Sometimes U, sometimes U', sometimes no AUF at all... But it still occures in some of my solves and I cant come up with a reason or where that habit comes from 

Edit: 
@Kirjava: I shat bricks when I tried some of the algos! Thanks!


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## 5BLD (Apr 14, 2011)

Kirjava: wow, I guess that's what I call 1-look step 4. Did you find these by experience?

Cool frog:I mean both. It is quite common to get the easy 4b 'skip' when one l/r edge is opposite its correct spot, while the other is in the D layer. Or yes, in a smooth motion, too, unlike in fridrich where it is almost impossible to forsee the PLL. But you probably know more than me!

Thierce: yes, I used to do that! Old habits from fridrich. What i do now is instinctively orient the centers- when it might be better not to. Or it might be better to have this instinct. I'm not sure, really.


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## Cool Frog (Apr 14, 2011)

5BLD said:


> Kirjava: wow, I guess that's what I call 1-look step 4. Did you find these by experience?
> 
> Cool frog:I mean both. It is quite common to get the easy 4b 'skip' when one l/r edge is opposite its correct spot, while the other is in the D layer. Or yes, in a smooth motion, too, unlike in fridrich where it is almost impossible to forsee the PLL. But you probably know more than me!
> 
> Thierce: yes, I used to do that! Old habits from fridrich. What i do now is instinctively orient the centers- when it might be better not to. Or it might be better to have this instinct. I'm not sure, really.


 
Those seem like cases I already do, I don't mind misoriented centers because I can usually force 4 edges flipped and have easy cases.
Yeah, my opposite layers seems very smooth. Just tracking the pieces during EO


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## JonnyWhoopes (Apr 16, 2011)

I guess this would be a good place to ask this:

I've recently started to actually practice Roux again. I wanna give that last push and come out sub-15 (the sixth person to do that with Roux?). How does one go about recognizing EO with misaligned centers? Because, every time I fix centers, I feel that I'm missing out on some optimizations that I just don't see.


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## waffle=ijm (Apr 16, 2011)

use the same and opposite rule with the pieces and centers you are given with. exclude the UL and UR pieces and align them so your U color is on top with those pieces.


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## Athefre (Apr 16, 2011)

It's usually only useful in a speedsolve if you are tracking the L/R edges before getting to that step.

It's fun, but difficult.


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## 5BLD (Apr 16, 2011)

Yeah, my aim is sub-15, and I'm not far now... But it's as if the sub-20 barrier really is a barrier. As in, some days I go past it into 16-18, some days i get stuck at 20-24.
Is it better to try to go fast with tiny pauses or go slow and smooth? I always have a 1-2 second pause before cmll and that tiny split second before 4c.
For blocks I go slow, but always forget to try to see the cmll case.


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## Rpotts (Apr 16, 2011)

hey a good site for CLL recognition -> david woner and rowan escher's new site

click on the case and it gives multiple recognition angles. Unfortunately it's not finished yet so no L, Pi or H cases yet (though Pi and H are easy to recognize comparatively.)


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## 5BLD (Apr 16, 2011)

JonnyWhoopes said:


> the sixth person to do that with Roux?


I think there's more than five who can sub-15.
Let's see who gets to sub-15 first out of us two!


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## cubacca1972 (Apr 16, 2011)

5BLD said:


> Ok, I am praying that I am not asking something silly, or that has been asked before...
> Are there any extra little bits to add to the awesome but simple method that is roux? Like in fridrich, you can 'add on' MGLS, WV, VH, ZB etc. Little variations of the method. Can you somehow influence the second block during the first block? Or even influence both before even starting the blocks? Forcing CMLL skips during blocks? Combining steps? I am by no means an expert at all, but I have been experimenting and I find that making some premoves before the blocks is somewhat useful for reducing move count although it's not particularly practical(long inspection).



Try http://www.speedsolving.com/forum/showthread.php?23916-2-step-finish-for-Roux-Edges

Additionally, I came up with WV for Petrus, not Fridrich.


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## 5BLD (Apr 16, 2011)

Hm, but why R of L/R flipped? To achieve this state, you would use the same methods as the regular 4b. And 4a+4b are almost fused... And 4c is instant recognition... I'll have a go though...
Your algorithms use a bit too much M U for me... Because, to do an M U I have to use my right index for M then jump over to U.
I think I could only apply this where it would be more effiecient to do so.


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## cubacca1972 (Apr 16, 2011)

5BLD said:


> Hm, but why R of L/R flipped? To achieve this state, you would use the same methods as the regular 4b. And 4a+4b are almost fused... And 4c is instant recognition... I'll have a go though...
> Your algorithms use a bit too much M U for me... Because, to do an M U I have to use my right index for M then jump over to U.
> I think I could only apply this where it would be more effiecient to do so.



I chose R of L/R to be flipped to accommodate for the UF flipped set. You can convert all of the cases to ones that only use moves in the RUM subset by doing x or x'. This was just an ergonomic choice for me. 

I don't see too much wrong with flipping L instead, mirroring the algorithms (or using some other preferred algorithms). 

I don't know if my system would really save time or moves, as I haven't calculated the average move count. It's just a different approach.


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## maggot (Apr 16, 2011)

The use of MU for roux is almost as imperative as being able to blockbuild effectively. If you optimize l6e, this is the easiest way to gain speed other than 1 look corners imho. I still suck at f2b and I know only a few cmll and I can sub 25 consistantly. Roux is cool in he fact that you can use qqtimer for MU scrambles and practice l6e. During inspection I can spam l6e in a matter of seconds... the transition is awkward into l6e for me, but M2 with a small pause I can spam the last part. I just takes a bit of practice.


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## 5BLD (Apr 16, 2011)

@maggot: No no no I meant literally M U. As in the two moves M and U. 
These are my fingertricks:
M right index
M' left ring
U right index
U' left index
M2 left ring followed by right ring.
So therefore repeatedly spamming M U is difficult as I have to constantly hop across with my right ring finger.
Of course I can moo decently, although not nearly as good as waffo, cool frog, or kirjava. I'm almost sub-20. I average 21.
Sorry for the confusion.


> During inspection, I can spam l6e in a matter of seconds


Hey, no twisting the cube during inspection!


> M2, and a short pause


Ok, on a more serious note than my last sentence, here is a little tip which I only discovered last week. To look for misoriented edges, simply look on the F face for the U/D colour. Or have a quick glance underneath. No need for an M2.


@cubacca:
This would actually work! I am choosing not to incorporate this though, because I actually do 4a and 4b in a smooth motion, using shortcuts which I have picked up. I think my first block and CMLL recognition needs work, but that's what I'm going to ask now.

My split is 5-5-4-6 on average, or on a good day, 4-4-4-6.
What do I need to work on?


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## oll+phase+sync (Apr 18, 2011)

Lately I dicoverd that I'm able to execute M2 by just using one finger one move. But in many cases I "loose contorl" of the cube when doing this. Any observations/suggestions?

An other very special CMLL+EO subcase: M'UM' + COLL
Don't get this wrong, I don't want to do EO before corners. I just wonder, if I spot an easy 3 or 4 move EO case is it worth it in that case


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## Kirjava (Apr 18, 2011)

Better to do corners first. You can use CMLL and force the easy case anyway and still do the 3 mover without wasting moves on COLL. COLL is only really useful when you already have an EO skip before CMLL.


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## 5BLD (Apr 18, 2011)

Oll+phase+sync:
Well that won't really work in my opinion because you will have to flick very hard. But maybe your fingers are stronger than mine! I do an M2 with my left ring followed by middle, or at least I try to. It will be more efficient than left ring-right ring.

As for EO then COLL for the M' U M' cases, I don't think it is worth doing so as CMLL has shorter cases but, yes, mess up orientation. (But something like doing the first move of sune as r instead of R is useful if you understand the cases. )
Since this can only be good with COLL-CMLL mutual cases, like sune, you would end up doing EO->CMLL instead of CMLl->EO which would mean L/R edges will be very hard to look ahead for.
And won't give you anything extra.
I orient the centers during CMLL though as all it is is making an R an r or adding an M move in between where appropriate. This gives me the extra fraction of a second to look ahead for EO cases.


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## Kirjava (Apr 18, 2011)

I orient centres at the end of the second block. Costs 0 extra moves. After this CLL+EO is essentially 1look. It's really worth learning how each CMLL affects EO if you want to 1look it. You should be able to predict the what the EO will after CLL before you even perform the alg. After you get used to this you can start adding an M' or w/e before CLL to change the resulting EO case into a much better one since you know what the result will be. Or just use an alg you know to solve CLL+EO in one go 

Since you're recognising CLL and EO at the same time, while you're executing that 2 or 1 algs as a single set of moves you can find the L+R edges for a nice transition into the next step. Then you just have to perm everything and force any skips you can.

Basically, you shouldn't need any kind of pauses after you start CLL.


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## 5BLD (Apr 18, 2011)

Ah thanks kirjava, I'm going to try it. I only just finished learning full cmll... I will look at each algorithm in depth.
Yeah you do cmll and eo in one alg don't you? I might try that too, at least for the ones where I can just add Ms.


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## uberCuber (Apr 18, 2011)

To help with your M U problem, try pushing upward on the DB sticker with your left middle/ring


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## StachuK1992 (Apr 18, 2011)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPxlpKqF_as#t=12s
See push.
M U can be fast.


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## 5BLD (Apr 18, 2011)

Argh, you got a Lubix Guhong! I have not got access to good cubes...
Hm... I should try that. I use my right index for M right now- what you do seems awkward, but all it needs is practice i guess...
Thanks, ubercuber and Stachu! It'll make my M slice perm alot faster.
Do you recommend a left ring-middle for M2? or should i carry on doing it right ring-left ring/ left ring-right ring?


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## uberCuber (Apr 18, 2011)

I do it left ring-middle, doing with both hands feels awkward to me


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## 5BLD (Apr 18, 2011)

Hm, i think i will stick with left-right, because now with the push DB, i no longer need to jump over with my right index. It is very awkward for me, but i'll practice it.


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## StachuK1992 (Apr 18, 2011)

I do:
U: right pointer
U2: double-trigger right pointer&middle
U': left pointer or right pointer back-flick

M': left ring BD to DF
M2: Just 2 M's
M: left ring DB to BU

So basically left hand for Ms, right hand for Us

Also, pay attention to how I hold my cube. My hands are closer together.


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## 5BLD (Apr 18, 2011)

M2 just 2 M's? Isn't that a bit slow?
Yes, your hands are closer together than mine are usually. Probably to do with small hands, and having to reach both M and U with both hands. But with this new strategy I won't need to do so anymore.


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## StachuK1992 (Apr 18, 2011)

My M2s often depend on teh alg.
For my Zperm, I double trigger pinky and ring fingers, but for other algs, (pure adj flip) I just do 2 M's. It really depends where my fingers are.


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## Cool Frog (Apr 18, 2011)

Any help in optimization of LSE?
I know you can influence where the Opposite edges are after EO with how you finish EO.
I have also figured out how to solve all the EO cases in 7 moves or less (Besides superflip).

Would it be worth (intuitivly) learn the EP when the UL and UR edges are swapped?


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## 5BLD (Apr 18, 2011)

Well, it would certainly help, i think. Experimenting is always good! But if you want a more detailed answer, you'll have to wait until Thom replies. Or Waffo.


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## Kirjava (Apr 18, 2011)

Cool Frog said:


> Would it be worth (intuitivly) learn the EP when the UL and UR edges are swapped?


 
No, learn how to force LL skips instead.


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## waffle=ijm (Apr 18, 2011)

LL skips are very easy to recognize btw. I won't tell you how though. that's part of the fun.


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## 5BLD (Apr 18, 2011)

Thom, do you use algorithms or little tricks that you discover over time? I can only force LL skips when i know how to...
edit: waffo just answered, nvm...
Waffo, is there something you're hiding that makes you so fast...?  
Or is it just 'simply roux'?


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## Cool Frog (Apr 18, 2011)

waffle=ijm said:


> LL skips are very easy to recognize btw. I won't tell you how though. that's part of the fun.


 
Can you recognize "special cases" when centers are off by an M2?

Time to start playing with my cube again (FUN!)


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## waffle=ijm (Apr 18, 2011)

I'm not fast. I do the most basic roux possible. The only thing I can do is see the entire first block.


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## Kirjava (Apr 18, 2011)

Play about. Go discover. You won't get better if you don't learn how to help yourself.

I posted some nice examples earlier in this thread. Do you know them yet? Do you know how they work?

Study them then go find your own. Or don't. You'd do better by practising your blocks than pissing about with advanced **** at the moment.


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## 5BLD (Apr 18, 2011)

Well someone's gotten a bit aggressive. Come on, some guy's a bit curious, and well, I'm just chatting. Nothing wrong with that. I have been experimenting but it's always nice to have some people to discuss things with. 
Just no.


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## Kirjava (Apr 18, 2011)

Huh? I'm being sincere and telling you what to do.

There's no malice behind my statements.


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## StachuK1992 (Apr 18, 2011)

To reiterate:
Thom really had no intention to offend you, at least none that I could tell.
Playing around really is the best thing you can do.


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## waffle=ijm (Apr 18, 2011)

he didn't say to **** off. he just made suggestions. it wasn't meant to be aggressive at all. lol

as for my suggestions - half the fun of roux is exploration. if we told you what to do then it's gets boring and you lose interest right away. but know that frustration and exploration go together. if you get frustrated don't just go off yelling "II EFFING CANTZ GET THIS FASTZ" because it's just part of the process


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## 5BLD (Apr 18, 2011)

I just... the tone... nevermind. You know the feeling when you misread stuff. Sorry.
anyway i like messing about with advanced stuff. I like getting confused.  
But seriously it does help the more simple stuff...


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## oll+phase+sync (Apr 18, 2011)

Again a non matching block idea, at the moment when I can't identify my recognition pattern (wich is most of the time while speeding) I use two step "total disorientation".

But besides being easy this 2 step methode doesn't win me anything.

So idea is:

1. orient corners (7 cases like normal)
2. CP + EO in one alg (don't know how many casese but estimat less than 15)


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## 5BLD (Apr 21, 2011)

Well, when I do non matching blocks, for the corners I just identify the white corners from the yellow corners and quickly think "okay so this green sticker on the yellow piece is actually blue in relation to that blue sticker on the white piece" and I just work from there. Recognition is a little slower than matching blocks... But i only use this for lucky cases.
Your idea is interesting, but I think I'd rather learn to recognize the actual cases, as this will be faster in the long run.


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