# Interested in ZBLL? ZB masterclass at Nats 2015



## 4Chan (Jun 15, 2015)

In the world of music, a "masterclass" is a class in which someone who is knowledgeable about a topic will impart knowledge/techniques/advice and the teacher talks with each student and everyone gets to listen in and learn.

At Indiana 2015, I sat at a table with some really awesome people and showed them some techniques that they thought was cool! 

Therefore, I was thinking that we could do a similar format. After events are over, I'll sit at a table where everyone can see examples, ask questions, and discuss ZB topics. It's a lotttttt of stuff to talk about, so I'm thinking it'll take at least an hour to cover everything. The sheer volume of typing is a contributing factor to why I haven't typed out a post because it'd take a lot of time to put together spreadsheets, charts, examples, picatures, etc. 

I'm hoping someone could record and tabulate everything into a coherent form so that everyone can benefit from my tricks.

For anyone who's not familiar, I'm 4chan, I completed ZBLL in 2009 and was the first to upload averages on Youtube. The first time I did the ZB method was with mostly optimal ZBLL algs from Cube Explorer back in 2009. I recently returned to cubing in January 2015, and relearned ZBLL in one month using special tricks which I will share at Nats. I've also used ZBLL to create special techniques which are useful in other fields like BLD and FMC. 


At the Nats 2015 ZB Masterclass, I will cover the following subjects:


Statistical approaches to the ZB method.
Combining statistics with extrapolation to estimate ZBLL cases with high accuracy.
Advanced recognition methods and techniques. At least four recognition methods will be explained in detail.
How to force guaranteed LL skips under 17 moves.
AUF elimination/consolidation techniques.
Mass Memorisation Techniques.
Ancient secret illuminati codes hidden in large alg sets. (I'm not joking, this is a serious topic which will be covered and was touched upon at Indiana 2015. These secret illuminati patterns explain how to selectively move edges within ZBLL alg families).
How to reduce large alg sets, and how to solve every ZBLL case with 50 "algs". (Beginner's ZBLL)
Using ZBLL to do EIGHT piece FMC insertions of both edges AND corners.
Supplementing speed optimal BLD corner algs with ZBLLs to solve corners and edges SIMULTANEOUSLY.
Advice in learning and progressing from Beginner's ZBLL to Intermediate and Advanced ZBLL.
General Q&A.

UPDATE: For the sake of time, I'll be doing a seminar on Saturday of Nationals at 9:10.
See you guys there, if you have any questions or want examples, feel free to talk to me in person!

[video=youtube_share;kZLvlfOKufw]http://youtu.be/kZLvlfOKufw[/video]


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## kcl (Jun 15, 2015)

holy yes, Chris told me how cool this was. I can't wait to meet you at nats, and I'd love to learn more about this!


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## 4Chan (Jun 15, 2015)

kclejeune said:


> holy yes, Chris told me how cool this was. I can't wait to meet you at nats, and I'd love to learn more about this!



I heard you know lots lots lots of these algs already!
So you might actually already know most of the stuff I'm talking about, hahaha. I hope I can help!


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## CraigBouchard (Jun 15, 2015)

Wait...people actually learned full ZB?! I remember when it first came out it was a neat idea but no one was up to the challenge...


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## cashis (Jun 15, 2015)

And now I'm even more sad I'm not going to nats. 
So, so sad...


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## AlexMaass (Jun 15, 2015)

Someone should film this lol.


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## Genesis (Jun 15, 2015)

If only I was going for nats... 
Hope someones recording it, I guess


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## kcl (Jun 15, 2015)

gogogo zb masterclass DVD, sell for $20 a pop


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## theROUXbiksCube (Jun 15, 2015)

kclejeune said:


> gogogo zb masterclass DVD, sell for $20 a pop



i would buy ten


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## cashis (Jun 15, 2015)

Also, section on 2GLL would b cool


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## OLLiver (Jun 15, 2015)

4Chan said:


> ~snip~




Great idea, however its not so great for those of us in different hemispheres lol,
I think you should do a long series on your youtube channel about everything ZBLL because I seriously think you're one of the only people who could even teach this stuff


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## 4Chan (Jun 15, 2015)

cashis said:


> Also, section on 2GLL would b cool



I actually don't have any tricks for 2GLL because SOOOO many of them are just a combination of sune/antisunes. I also didn't think of any creative recognition things because of the whole corners being correctly permuted and etc. 
I totally neglected any ways of getting 2GLL easier.

Apologies. 



OLLiver said:


> Great idea, however its not so great for those of us in different hemispheres lol,
> I think you should do a long series on your youtube channel about everything ZBLL because I seriously think you're one of the only people who could even teach this stuff



The reason I haven't already made a video series is because I'm reallllly busy. I'm currently balancing 40-50 hours a week in a lab and taking classes. I'm actually reallllllly behind on a literature review because I spent my past weekend at a comp.

I think the most efficient way of doing it is just to have someone video record the discussion at Nats, and then the info will just naturally propagate.

Sorry about that!


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## Isaac Lai (Jun 15, 2015)

Just to ask, is the youtube channel you put in your profile your legit channel? It doesn't look like it has anything to do with cubing.


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## TDM (Jun 15, 2015)

Isaac Lai said:


> Just to ask, is the youtube channel you put in your profile your legit channel? It doesn't look like it has anything to do with cubing.


His actual channel is this one (found that from this thread).


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## Berd (Jun 15, 2015)

Please someone film it well at nats please!


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## kschiew (Jun 15, 2015)

This is really cool. Really hope someone can help and record the whole thing please!!!


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## Isaac Lai (Jun 15, 2015)

TDM said:


> His actual channel is this one (found that from this thread).



Wait I don't mean to insult 4Chan or anything but isn't an average of 15 seconds kinda slow for someone who knows full ZBLL?


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## guysensei1 (Jun 15, 2015)

Isaac Lai said:


> Wait I don't mean to insult 4Chan or anything but isn't an average of 15 seconds kinda slow for someone who knows full ZBLL?



knowledge of full ZBLL does not affect speed too much.


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## ryanj92 (Jun 15, 2015)

Isaac Lai said:


> Wait I don't mean to insult 4Chan or anything but isn't an average of 15 seconds kinda slow for someone who knows full ZBLL?



who cares? the fact that he's tamed and brought order to such a huge alg set is more impressive than sub-10/12 averages imo


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## Isaac Lai (Jun 15, 2015)

ryanj92 said:


> who cares? the fact that he's tamed and brought order to such a huge alg set is more impressive than sub-10/12 averages imo


That's true. I'd also like to know how he did it.


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## irontwig (Jun 15, 2015)

ryanj92 said:


> who cares? the fact that he's tamed and brought order to such a huge alg set is more impressive than sub-10/12 averages imo



Well, if your goal is to use it for speed isn't that a fair point to make? Sure, you might want to learn ZBLL just to be cool and special, but it seems to me that Tran and Davidson learned ZBLL in order to get better results, which they doesn't seem to have gotten.


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## AlexMaass (Jun 15, 2015)

I'll try to film this, what time will this be and how long? Not sure if my SD card will have enough space.


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## Rubiks560 (Jun 15, 2015)

inb4 Chris Olson pls film.

Assuming I have time at nats, I'll try and do it.


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## Isaac Lai (Jun 15, 2015)

Rubiks560 said:


> inb4 Chris Olson pls film.
> 
> Assuming I have time at nats, I'll try and do it.



Yay I am looking forward to it


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## Bindedsa (Jun 15, 2015)

Isaac Lai said:


> Wait I don't mean to insult 4Chan or anything but isn't an average of 15 seconds kinda slow for someone who knows full ZBLL?



ZBLL's effect on overall averages is negligible because it doesn't save much time overall and most of solving time is just getting to the last layer. It helps a lot more in singles and smaller averages, because you are far more like to get lucky and you never having to doubt if you know a case. Also practicing a ton is important for recognition, which is something I don't think Chris Tran has time for right now.


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## JacksonT1999 (Jun 15, 2015)

Definitely! I'd love to come. I only average around 12 or 13 seconds but this seems like an awesome way to get started learning zb/zbll.


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## 4Chan (Jun 15, 2015)

Consider this: after taking quitting cubing for five years I've had to relearn a lot of things, and all of the things I've figured out are sort of recent.
I'm still working out some cases, and I'm not fluid in some sets yet. I'm still relearning finger tricks and I'm still bad at ZZ.

Wouldn't you say that 4-5 months of practise is too early to make a judgment call on an entire method?

Also, I actually practise quite a bit, and I actually don't think recognition is an issue for me so far.
Actually seeing the cases is simple, but due to a big shortcut I use, my recall is slower, because I have to figure out some cases on the fly.


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## Isaac Lai (Jun 15, 2015)

4Chan said:


> Consider this: after taking quitting cubing for five years I've had to relearn a lot of things, and all of the things I've figured out are sort of recent.
> I'm still working out some cases, and I'm not fluid in some sets yet. I'm still relearning finger tricks and I'm still bad at ZZ.
> 
> Wouldn't you say that 4-5 months of practise is too early to make a judgment call on an entire method?
> ...



Hmmmm yeah I think I kind of overlooked the fact that you took such a long break. The fact that you managed to relearn all the algs in a month is impressive in itself.


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## Nathan Dwyer (Jun 15, 2015)

Awesome, can't wait! i missed your ZBLL talk at Indiana, but heard from everyone that it was mind-blowing


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## 4Chan (Jun 15, 2015)

Isaac Lai said:


> Hmmmm yeah I think I kind of overlooked the fact that you took such a long break. The fact that you managed to relearn all the algs in a month is impressive in itself.



Thank you! I'm really bad at this game, but I have faith in the method itself!



Rubiks560 said:


> inb4 Chris Olson pls film.
> 
> Assuming I have time at nats, I'll try and do it.



Hahahah, I'm doing this because of your suggestion LOL.




AlexMaass said:


> I'll try to film this, what time will this be and how long? Not sure if my SD card will have enough space.



I was expecting just a small group of roughly 10 people to show interest, so I was thinking those people could either post here or message when they're free, and we could all sit at a table! Probably Friday or Saturday evening!



Nathan Dwyer said:


> Awesome, can't wait! i missed your ZBLL talk at Indiana, but heard from everyone that it was mind-blowing



Ahhh, I was really honoured by everyone's response to my ideas! Indiana was great and you guys were awesome!


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## irontwig (Jun 15, 2015)

4Chan said:


> Also, I actually practise quite a bit, and I actually don't think recognition is an issue for me so far.
> Actually seeing the cases is simple, but due to a big shortcut I use, my recall is slower, because I have to figure out some cases on the fly.



People tend to (unknowingly or not) lump together recog and recall, which makes sense, since anytime you're not turning you're basically wasting time. I'm not saying that ZBLL is absolutely proven to not be worth the time investment, but I can kinda see a trend of the last decade.

I guess I am the "jerk" you mentioned on your blog because I joked about you being excited about something that's frankly quite obvious. 

Also, this CTLS thing, isn't it just pseudo F2L?


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## rybaby (Jun 15, 2015)

I don't even use CFOP or ZZ but this sounds really cool...


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## bobthegiraffemonkey (Jun 15, 2015)

I don't even care much about 3x3 but this seems interesting. Will probably watch the video when it happens.


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## Torch (Jun 15, 2015)

Hmm, I think I personally got enough of this on the car ride to and from Indiana, but I hope it goes well!


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## DizzypheasantZZ (Jun 15, 2015)

I would go to the nationals just for this.
Also, it would be cool if someone could stream it live on twitch or youtube.


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## Millet (Jun 15, 2015)

Someone please film this for us who can not attend. I would very much like to watch it. Interesting stuff!


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## AlexMaass (Jun 15, 2015)

Millet said:


> Someone please film this for us who can not attend. I would very much like to watch it. Interesting stuff!


Yeah I'm planning to film it. Hopefully 4Chan tells me where and when this will happen so I can film it.


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## 4Chan (Jun 15, 2015)

AlexMaass said:


> Yeah I'm planning to film it. Hopefully 4Chan tells me where and when this will happen so I can film it.



Here's an update then! The Cubicle has some venue space, and Phil has graciously offered it for us to gather and make this happen.
So after all the events are over, and after they've finished vending, let's meet up and discuss some techniques!


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## AlexMaass (Jun 15, 2015)

4Chan said:


> Here's an update then! The Cubicle has some venue space, and Phil has graciously offered it for us to gather and make this happen.
> So after all the events are over, and after they've finished vending, let's meet up and discuss some techniques!



Wait I can't film it then, my flight leaves near when the competition ends. Could you do it earlier, like maybe after the events for day 1 and 2 end?


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## 4Chan (Jun 15, 2015)

Yeah, of course! I'll be there for all the days, as well as Wednesday night and Thursday.

Whatever works for the most amount of people!


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## 4Chan (Jul 20, 2015)

Bump:

Since I was chosen to give a seminar at Nats, I don't want to do anything redundant.
Just check out my seminar talk, and if you've got any questions, catch up with me at dinner/lunch/etc. and we can share ideas!


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## theROUXbiksCube (Jul 20, 2015)

Can someone still film it?


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## StachuK1992 (Jul 21, 2015)

If no one else films it (I'm sure they will) I will take copious notes and assist Chris in documenting everything he knows into website form.


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## IQubic (Jul 27, 2015)

Now that Nats is over, would someone please put the video up? I assume there was a video.


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## Bindedsa (Jul 27, 2015)

IQubic said:


> Now that Nats is over, would someone please put the video up? I assume there was a video.



Nats has not started.


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## Rubiks560 (Jul 27, 2015)

IQubic said:


> Now that Nats is over, would someone please put the video up? I assume there was a video.



Nats doesn't start until Friday. You're thinking of worlds.


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## JustinTimeCuber (Jul 27, 2015)

IQubic said:


> Now that Nats is over, would someone please put the video up? I assume there was a video.



*cough* nats isn't *cough* over *cough*


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## AlexMaass (Jul 27, 2015)

nah the actual US nationals that I held in my back yard is over, you must be thinking of the non legit nats in south carolina


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## 4Chan (Aug 2, 2015)

Public apology for the quality and content.

I choked and skipped over important things like preloading statistically more common cases before even recognising, and an in depth explanation of my recogniton method.

Sorry guys!

But I hope it was entertaining! I tried to make it fun


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## supercavitation (Aug 2, 2015)

4Chan said:


> Public apology for the quality and content.
> 
> I choked and skipped over important things like preloading statistically more common cases before even recognising, and an in depth explanation of my recogniton method.
> 
> ...



Was it taped? Not at Nats, but I really want to see what you said!


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## IQubic (Aug 2, 2015)

supercavitation said:


> Was it taped? Not at Nats, but I really want to see what you said!


I feel like I remember Lucas Garron saying that he'd video tape the seminar. AlexMaass definitely said that he'd try and film it. So, yeah.There is a good chance of a video existing. I'm not sure how good the Wi-Fi is at the hotel, so we 
may have to wait until people get home to see the video.


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## Lucas Garron (Aug 2, 2015)

IQubic said:


> I feel like I remember Lucas Garron saying that he'd video tape the seminar. AlexMaass definitely said that he'd try and film it. So, yeah.There is a good chance of a video existing. I'm not sure how good the Wi-Fi is at the hotel, so we
> may have to wait until people get home to see the video.



Hmm, I certainly didn't have plans to. Maybe Chris O. has some of them?

Else, perhaps Chris T. can upload a web version of his slides? 

(But the venue internet is quite good. I'm hoping to get the 3x3x3 winner's final average uploaded same-night tomorrow, but we'll see how it goes.)


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## IQubic (Aug 2, 2015)

Guess I looked at post 37, and not 39. Did anyone film the talk?
And, for whatever reason, I though that you wrote post 43. Well at least StachuK seems pretty dedicated to getting this information out to more people than just those who went to Nats.


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## IQubic (Aug 5, 2015)

Will anyone answer this thread? I really want to know the things Chris said in his seminar.


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## AlexMaass (Aug 5, 2015)

I pm-ed Olson because someone asked, he said that he got all the seminars lol. It will probably be quite a bit until it's uploaded because of how much footage Chris got.


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## rubikmaster (Aug 5, 2015)

AlexMaass said:


> I pm-ed Olson because someone asked, he said that *he got all the seminars* lol. It will probably be quite a bit until it's uploaded because of how much footage Chris got.



YAAAAAAASSSSS! Can't wait to see them.


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## IQubic (Aug 5, 2015)

I want to see all the seminars. How long do you think it will be until we see them?


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## rubikmaster (Aug 5, 2015)

IQubic said:


> I want to see all the seminars. How long do you think it will be until we see them?



Probably quite a while, I just hope Chris will be willing to upload all of them.


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## 4Chan (Aug 5, 2015)

My girlfriend recorded it on her phone, but it's pretty far away.

I pretty much just made a fool of myself and basically said stuff that almost every advanced cuber already knows.
It was pretty much just a refresher course for newbies who were interested in ZBLL.

I also skipped a ton of stuff and lacked any sense of coherence.

I even skipped two really really important concepts like recognition stuff, and how to "build" algs and recognise what move sequences within algs do and how to manipulate them to solve multiple cases. Example:
1: Changing double turns into wide double turns within algs will change edge cycles, but maintain corner permutation.
2: If part of an alg is 2 gen, adding slight modifications to that part will retain corner permutation, but change corner orientation and edge cycle.
3. Changing the direction of parts of alg will allow you to solve several more cases, and instead of memorising a new alg, you just remember the change in direction.
4. How the beginning of an alg will hint how the alg ends, so you don't actually have to memorise the end because the cube gives you hints on how to figure out the end of the alg if you've forgotten it.

Sorry for overhyping it, and apologies for not being more prepared!


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## Rubiks560 (Aug 5, 2015)

I'm working on uploading Chris' seminar tonight.


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## AlexMaass (Aug 5, 2015)

4Chan said:


> My girlfriend recorded it on her phone, but it's pretty far away.
> 
> I pretty much just made a fool of myself and basically said stuff that almost every advanced cuber already knows.
> It was pretty much just a refresher course for newbies who were interested in ZBLL.
> ...



eh I guess you can make a better version at home or something


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## IQubic (Aug 5, 2015)

Rubiks560 said:


> I'm working on uploading Chris' seminar tonight.


LOL, At first I though You meant your seminar. But then I relized since you were posting it here, it was the ZBLL seminar you meant.


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## rubikmaster (Aug 5, 2015)

Rubiks560 said:


> I'm working on uploading Chris' seminar tonight.



Yay! 




IQubic said:


> LOL, At first I though You meant your seminar. But then I relized since you were posting it here, it was the ZBLL seminar you meant.



Lol, I thought the exact same thing.


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## TheCoolMinxer (Aug 5, 2015)

[video=youtube_share;kZLvlfOKufw]http://youtu.be/kZLvlfOKufw[/video]
There you go


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## Berd (Aug 5, 2015)

Thank you Henry!


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## JustinTimeCuber (Aug 5, 2015)

Rubiks560 said:


> I'm working on uploading Chris' seminar tonight.



I'm interested in watching that one, and some others. When will the other ones be uploaded?

btw you forgot alg of the week this Friday...


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## Berd (Aug 5, 2015)

JustinTimeCuber said:


> I'm interested in watching that one, and some others. When will the other ones be uploaded?
> 
> btw you forgot alg of the week this Friday...


It's up on cyotheking's channel!


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## StachuK1992 (Aug 5, 2015)

Chris (Tran):
Shut up. Your seminar was interesting.


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## Isaac Lai (Aug 5, 2015)

The seminar was an eye-opener for me. Though faster people probably know about most of the content, the number of people who didn't know about this aspect of ZBLL was far more, so I'd say it was pretty good.

Also, I would like to watch the one about not getting nervous.


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## DizzypheasantZZ (Aug 5, 2015)

4Chan said:


> My girlfriend recorded it on her phone, but it's pretty far away.
> 
> I pretty much just made a fool of myself and basically said stuff that almost every advanced cuber already knows.
> It was pretty much just a refresher course for newbies who were interested in ZBLL.
> ...



Please make videos on those subjects. I would really like to know how to make my own algs and would probably try to make an entire list of algs. I would also like to know more about transitioning from beginner ZBLL to advanced ZBLL.


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## Kit Clement (Aug 5, 2015)

Isaac Lai said:


> The seminar was an eye-opener for me. Though faster people probably know about most of the content, the number of people who didn't know about this aspect of ZBLL was far more, so I'd say it was pretty good.
> 
> Also, I would like to watch the one about not getting nervous.


That seminar was cancelled by the speakers a couple days before the event.


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## StachuK1992 (Aug 5, 2015)

Did they get nervous?


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## stoic (Aug 5, 2015)

^^
You win the Internet.


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## Myachii (Aug 5, 2015)

stoic said:


> ^^
> You win the Internet.



+1

Best comment I've seen in a while.


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## OLLiver (Aug 6, 2015)

Hey fellow cubers.
I come to you now in my hour of confusion seeking advice
So the big question is what method I should focus my next half-decade or so learning. I apologise in advance for the post length.
ROUX vs ZBLL.

So I avg 13 second on boring old CFOP without full OLL. I started on ZBLL a while ago and I know the full T set. But I got a bit fed up of CFOP so I have been doing roux for a week and I avg around 25 seconds now. I like roux a lot but I also like ZBLL.
I want to do the next big thing in cubing. ZBLL and roux are both relatively uncharted territory. I am very good at M moves but I am also fast at learning Algorithms. 
So skill-wise both could be a good pursuit. I need some help here people so what do you think I should focus on?


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## Ross The Boss (Aug 6, 2015)

OLLiver said:


> Hey fellow cubers.
> I come to you now in my hour of confusion seeking advice
> So the big question is what method I should focus my next half-decade or so learning. I apologise in advance for the post length.
> ROUX vs ZBLL.
> ...




whynotboth.jpg


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## PenguinsDontFly (Aug 6, 2015)

OLLiver said:


> Hey fellow cubers.
> I come to you now in my hour of confusion seeking advice
> So the big question is what method I should focus my next half-decade or so learning. I apologise in advance for the post length.
> ROUX vs ZBLL.
> ...



cfop. 


with a bunch of add-ons like edge control, vls, winter, summer, zbll, coll, etc. and use all dem MU u-perms to make you happy.


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## Bindedsa (Aug 6, 2015)

Isaac Lai said:


> The seminar was an eye-opener for me. Though faster people probably know about most of the content, the number of people who didn't know about this aspect of ZBLL was far more, so I'd say it was pretty good.
> 
> Also, I would like to watch the one about not getting nervous.



Tons of this is news to me.


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## PenguinsDontFly (Aug 6, 2015)

4Chan said:


> Sorry for overhyping it, and apologies for not being more prepared!



shutup. your seminar was great, even if you skipped some stuff. you were so professiobal about it and it was very entertaining to watch. it was also very motivating! huge alg sets dont seem that insane anymore, and just like you said, you just have to be smart about it.


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## NeilH (Aug 6, 2015)

PenguinsDontFly said:


> cfop.
> 
> 
> with a bunch of add-ons like edge control, vls, winter, summer, zbll, coll, etc. and use all dem MU u-perms to make you happy.



I still dont know what i want to use between roux and cfop. I might learn zz.


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## PenguinsDontFly (Aug 6, 2015)

NeilH said:


> I still dont know what i want to use between roux and cfop. I might learn zz.



when in doubt, use the tdm method.


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## NeilH (Aug 6, 2015)

PenguinsDontFly said:


> when in doubt, use the tdm method.



Boyyyyyyyyyy no wayyy. But srsly, do you ever solve 5x5+? If so, what method do you use? I would use Roux full time for 3x3, but bigkewbisbae and roux sucks on bigkewb.


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## PenguinsDontFly (Aug 6, 2015)

NeilH said:


> Boyyyyyyyyyy no wayyy. But srsly, do you ever solve 5x5+? If so, what method do you use? I would use Roux full time for 3x3, but bigkewbisbae and roux sucks on bigkewb.



I dont have 5x5 plus. I do 4x4 and use roux, and average ~48. 5x5+ gets harder though. you could still use cfop on big cubes and for OH too, even ZZ for OH lol. example adam attia: 3x3 roux, 4x4 yau, OH ZZ. also neil morales but idk what he does for 4x4.


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## NeilH (Aug 6, 2015)

PenguinsDontFly said:


> I dont have 5x5 plus. I do 4x4 and use roux, and average ~48. 5x5+ gets harder though. you could still use cfop on big cubes and for OH too, even ZZ for OH lol. example adam attia: 3x3 roux, 4x4 yau, OH ZZ. also neil morales but idk what he does for 4x4.



My brain soiduhfalkjfv;soerngo[ianoiaef. But anyway, I'll learn ZZ and see how that goes.


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## PenguinsDontFly (Aug 6, 2015)

NeilH said:


> My brain soiduhfalkjfv;soerngo[ianoiaef. But anyway, I'll learn ZZ and see how that goes.



lol yeah adam is a little wonky.


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## OLLiver (Aug 6, 2015)

"NOTHING IS IMPOSSIBLE THERE ARE NO LIMITS!" -WISE WORDS FROM Chris Tran AKA Lord ZB.


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## timeless (Aug 6, 2015)

chris, when are you going to post that zbll memo system tutorial you mentioned in the other thread?


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## IAmAPerson (Aug 6, 2015)

I'm considering switching from the CFOP method to the ZB method. I already know all of VHLS except for 3 algs, so I have a head start as far as ZBLS goes. ZBLL would still be hell though.


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## NeilH (Aug 6, 2015)

IAmAPerson said:


> I'm considering switching from the CFOP method to the ZB method. I already know all of VHLS except for 3 algs, so I have a head start as far as ZBLS goes. ZBLL would still be hell though.



Just wondering, have you tried Roux/ZZ/Petrus. ZB is kind of similar to CFOP, so if not, you might want to try out those methods to see if you like them.


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## TDM (Aug 6, 2015)

PenguinsDontFly said:


> when in doubt, use the tdm method.


wat


NeilH said:


> Boyyyyyyyyyy no wayyy. But srsly, do you ever solve 5x5+? If so, what method do you use? I would use Roux full time for 3x3, but bigkewbisbae and roux sucks on bigkewb.


I don't think many Roux users use Roux on bigcubes. It's not that slow to use CFOP on bigcubes even if you use Roux on 3x3, since 3x3 is such a small part of the entire solve. 3x3 can be quite a large part of 4x4 though (maybe a third of the solve), but since Roux is still easy to do reasonably quickly on 4x4 that's not an issue.


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## irontwig (Aug 6, 2015)

"Semi-algs" seems like a really useful concept, especially if there's a systematic way to use them. Maybe algs could be generated with a program similair to than one for Kir-LL or Petrus 270.


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## IAmAPerson (Aug 6, 2015)

NeilH said:


> Just wondering, have you tried Roux/ZZ/Petrus. ZB is kind of similar to CFOP, so if not, you might want to try out those methods to see if you like them.


I have actually mained in all of those methods at one point. Reasons I never stuck with them: 

Petrus: Blockbuilding
Roux: Blockbuilding 
ZZ: Blockbuilding


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## joshsailscga (Aug 6, 2015)

IAmAPerson said:


> I have actually mained in all of those methods at one point. Reasons I never stuck with them:
> 
> Petrus: Blockbuilding
> Roux: Blockbuilding
> ZZ: Blockbuilding



I didn't think ZZ had any blockbuilding?


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## Bindedsa (Aug 6, 2015)

joshsailscga said:


> I didn't think ZZ had any blockbuilding?



It's the reason it's so efficient.


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## IAmAPerson (Aug 6, 2015)

Bindedsa said:


> It's the reason it's so efficient.


Yea, whenever I solve ZZ, I always out of habit solve EOCross and do CFOP-style F2L.


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## TDM (Aug 6, 2015)

IAmAPerson said:


> Yea, whenever I solve ZZ, I always out of habit solve EOCross and do CFOP-style F2L.


This makes your F2L less efficient. I would avoid doing it unless the cross is only a couple of moves more than a line.


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## IAmAPerson (Aug 6, 2015)

TDM said:


> This makes your F2L less efficient. I would avoid doing it unless the cross is only a couple of moves more than a line.


That's why I solve CFOP.


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## timeless (Aug 7, 2015)

IAmAPerson said:


> Yea, whenever I solve ZZ, I always out of habit solve EOCross and do CFOP-style F2L.



same here


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