# Should 3x3x3 With Feet Remain an Official WCA Event?



## Sa967St (Jul 6, 2014)

The goal of this thread is to gather a variety of opinions about removing 3x3x3 With Feet, and to build a solid list of pros and cons for its potential removal, to take into consideration for future Regulations.


Questions for everyone: 

*Do you believe 3x3x3 With Feet should remain an official event? Why or why not*? 

*Would you support the removal of 3x3x3 With Feet? Why or why not*?



Here is a list of pros and cons for the what happens if Feet is removed, mostly from discussions in this thread and other threads.

*Note: They are not meant to be interpreted as solid reasons on their own to remove/keep Feet. They are merely pros and cons that would come out of its removal. They are positive and negative statements about what would happen if Feet is removed. They are not the same thing as "reasons to remove Feet" and "reasons to keep Feet".*


Positive outcomes of removing Feet:


Feet is arguably the most unsanitary event, since feet can be much less clean than hands, especially when clean socks/footwear are not worn. Additionally, even when one's feet are actually clean, watching them being used can still be very uncomfortable and repulsive. Feet solving (both official solves and practice solves at competitions) can contribute to an unpleasant atmosphere to spectators and non-Feet competitors, so its removal would give more pleasant experiences at competitions.

Fewer people are willing to judge and/or scramble for Feet relative to other events, and it's not so great to have to force people to do either at a competition (organizers are allowed to do this according to Regulation 1e2). Judging for Feet solves can be humiliating since judges have crouch to lift the cover and watch the solve, and may have to take a close look at the puzzle to inspect misalignments. It would also be more pleasant for scramblers and judges for other 3x3x3 events to know that competitors don't use the same cube for other 3x3x3 events right after using it for Feet solves.

 If Feet Solving is removed as an event, then it would make organizing large competitions (ones that hold all events) less of a hassle for the organizers. Feet Solving required additional floorspace (some organizers even prefer a separate room), and additional equipment such as plastic gloves, saran wrap, wipes, and sometimes new timers and mats (e.g. At Worlds 2013 and previous US Nationals, the organization team got new timing equipment just for Feet then sold them afterwards). Setting up and taking down the timing stations for Feet can also take some additional time if the event is held in a different area than where the main timing stations are.

A common "abuse" of the +2 misalignment penalty is to not perform the last move in a Feet solve if it would take more than 2 seconds. Removing Feet would resolve this problem. [_Note: This is a relatively minor pro, but it's not obvious and it's included in this list for the sake of making it complete as possible. This is a positive outcome from the removal of Feet, since it helps reduce the number of ways the +2 penalty can be used to one's advantage._]

The Sum of Ranks, the most common and well-known way to measure the overall rankings of competitors, would be more credible without Feet Solving since it would compensate for the many competitors who refuse to compete in Feet Solving for personal reasons.

Negative outcomes of removing Feet:


 Removing the event would make all past Feet solves unofficial. It would take away Feet records that took a lot of effort to accomplish.

 Removing the event would allow no more official Feet solves, and all Feet Solves in future competitions would be unofficial and less likely to he held. This would disappoint those who enjoy participating in the event and those who enjoy watching it at competitions.

Neutral outcomes of removing Feet:


 The popularity and appeal of Feet Solving is not the same in all countries. There are communities that love the event, and others that despise it. Its removal would satisfy some communities, but dissatisfy others.

 Media at competitions often covers Feet solves if it is held. Depending on how they portray Feet Solving and what they say about it, it can give different positive or negative impressions to the viewers about WCA competitions and the cubing community. It can both hurt and help the image of cubing, depending on what the viewers take from it.

 How much 3x3x3 With Feet added as an event is controversial. As a 3x3x3 variant, it added another twist to solving a 3x3x3 using a regular speed method, but it also added the factor of not using hands, which made it require a new kind of skill. Its removal would be a loss in variety of events, however how large the loss is is debatable. Any additional knowledge (e.g. algorithms) that cubers have leaned for Feet Solving has not gone to waste since it can be reapplied to other events, but the techniques (e.g. tricks for performing moves fast with one's feet) used for Feet Solving may not be able applicable to other events.


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## LucidCuber (Jul 6, 2014)

I think that it is the best candidate for an event to be removed. Although I'm not too fussed for now. I would agree that it's the least professional event.


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## Skullush (Jul 6, 2014)

I just think that it's a fun event, and I like to compete in it. It's a good change of pace compared to the other events, and I feel that it's a lot more relaxed. But if it was removed, I certainly wouldn't be outraged


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## qqwref (Jul 6, 2014)

I hope feet gets removed. My reasoning is covered in your Pros list already (negative media attention, unsanitary, doesn't add much as an event).


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## Michael Womack (Jul 6, 2014)

It should stay cause if we can solve it with our feet then then why not compete by doing it. I also love seeing how we can test our limits on how we can solve the 3x3.


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## Kirjava (Jul 6, 2014)

Feet actually started out as a joke. Not making this up.


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## arcio1 (Jul 6, 2014)

> Much of the media attention towards Feet is negative and makes competitions look unprofessional. Its removal would reduce the negative media attention and have it more focused on more widely respectable events.


I haven't noticed that. People and media are even more amazed when they find out that we (speedcubers) can solve it even with feet. 



> Feet is arguably the most unsanitary event, since feet are often much less clean than hands. Feet solving (both official solves and practice solves at competitions) can contribute to an unpleasant atmosphere to spectators and non-Feet competitors, so its removal would give a more pleasant experience at competitions.


I believe that most people clean their feet at least once a day and I think that it is enough to keep them clean. I haven't seen anyone solving competiting with dirty feet. Of course, sometimes socks stink because of sweat. The same sweat that you have all over your body. Yuk, why do you solve with that sweaty hands?



> Fewer people are willing to judge and/or scramble for Feet relative to other events, and it's not so great to have to force people to do either at a competition. It would also be more pleasant for scramblers and judges for other 3x3x3 events to know that competitors don't use the same cube for other 3x3x3 events right after using it for Feet solves.


There are always people who feel like judging feet, there is no need to _force_ anybody.



> A common "abuse" of the +2 misalignment penalty is to not perform the last move in a Feet solve if it would take more than 2 seconds. Removing Feet would resolve this problem.


All fast feet solvers do the last move because it's faster than 2 seconds for them. Also, most of the time people who do that aren't even capable of making podium, so why do you think it's bad? I know a person who sometimes deliberately do +2 in semifinal of 3x3 so that he wouldn't have to race certain person in final and I don't think it's a reason to remove 3x3.

I am opposed to removing 3x3 With Feet from an official events list.


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## kcl (Jul 6, 2014)

While it is an unpopular event, and I do not care for it myself, I do not believe it should be removed. I guarantee removing it will **** a lot of people off who have worked hard at it. If we were to remove skewb because it's different and it were considered "unpopular" you and I would both be rather pissed. The same goes for those who work hard for feet. I usually scramble a LOT at competitions, by the end of the day, my hands are sweaty anyway. Let's be real here. Hands touch all sorts of disgusting objects. Feet are simply in our shoes, never really touching much of anything. Overall I feel that it isn't broken, don't try to fix it. People enjoy the event, so just leave it. It isn't hurting anyone.


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## Lazy Einstein (Jul 6, 2014)

I don't practice feet YET and I think it should NOT be an official event. 

My reason: 
- Most WCA comps do not have every event at every comp. So if you live in a place where few comps happen every year than you only have the chance to participate in so many official events a year. It would suck if you couldn't do sq-1 or 5x5x5 BLD because feet was given a spot over them.
- It seems that the majority of people who participate in feet are big on Sum of rank standings. Removing feet would give people big on Sum of Rank standings more time to practice for other official events.
- In regards to feet being popular, if people like feet they will keep on doing it even if it isn't an official event. Big blind 6x6x6+ isn't official, yet many people seem to really enjoy it.


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## qqwref (Jul 6, 2014)

I'd just like to point out that, personally, I usually wash my hands several times during a competition (a few times from bathroom visits, plus occasionally washing them to improve my grip on the cube). I have never washed my feet during a competition.


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## Michael Womack (Jul 6, 2014)

arcio1 said:


> I haven't noticed that. People and media are even more amazed when they find out that we (speedcubers) can solve it even with feet.



Here is a very good example of that https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3UEhfbREQI


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## arcio1 (Jul 6, 2014)

Lazy Einstein said:


> - Most WCA comps do not have every event at every comp. So if you live in a place where few comps happen every year than you only have the chance to participate in so many official events a year. It would suck if you couldn't do sq-1 or 5x5x5 BLD because feet was given a spot over them.


It would suck if you couldn't do feet because sq-1 or 5x5x5 BLD was given a spot over it.


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## bobthegiraffemonkey (Jul 6, 2014)

Sa967St said:


> As a removal of an event with no immediate replacement, it's simply a loss of an event.



This seems like a strange argument since an event was added quite recently.


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## rowehessler (Jul 6, 2014)

Feet is a joke. Like kirjava said, I also heard it was originally started just as a joke anyway, not sure how it even stayed as an event this long. Also, no, people's feet aren't clean. One time at nationals, feet was held in a side room for hours because there were so many people, and the entire room smelt like ass when you walk in. However, I have noticed over the past few years that it only seems to be the US cubers that have such a problem with it.


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## BrianJ (Jul 6, 2014)

I personally hate feet, as I can't solve a couple F2L pairs without the stackmat turning off. I don't think it should be removed, actually. People have put hard work into getting world class at feet, so removing it would probably enrage them. I haven't been to a comp where there was feet, and I probably won't be for a while. I don't feel I really have a say in this, but as stated before, I think it should stay.


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## brandbest1 (Jul 6, 2014)

When you say "people put a lot of time and effort" as a con, I'd just like to make a small point and say that people put a lot of time and effort into getting fast at magics too, and certainly invested a lot in new strings. And then magics were removed.


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## Tim Major (Jul 6, 2014)

Michael Womack said:


> Here is a very good example of that https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3UEhfbREQI



Why do you see that as positive? Quirky acts often get through on these shows, see http://youtube.com/watch?v=B8k59sBhh6Y&feature=kp

The judges' and audience's facial expressions in Simon's audition don't come off as "wow that's cool I wish I could do that". Every conversation about cubing I've had with noncubers about feet goes like;

"Wow you can solve it in 15 seconds? That's crazy. Wait... people solve it with feet? Gross, weird" etc. 

It gives attention to cubing, but not positive, let's face it, feet is weird as *******.

I think poll should say "keep feet, remove feet and don't care as the options". I doubt anyone who actively practices would vote remove it. Or change practices to "has previously/currently practiced" so then people who practiced to get records/lower sum of ranks would be able to show they dislike feet even though they're fast


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## Skullush (Jul 6, 2014)

brandbest1 said:


> When you say "people put a lot of time and effort" as a con, I'd just like to make a small point and say that people put a lot of time and effort into getting fast at magics too, and certainly invested a lot in new strings. And then magics were removed.



And that was a con for removing magics. and the pros and cons were considered and the decision was to remove magics, because the pros outweighed the cons


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## Coolster01 (Jul 6, 2014)

Before I get started, let me note that I am NOT just saying that I like the event because I hold feet records. I _obviously_ liked the event before holding records; that's what got me practicing to get where I am. Also, I could very well still say that I was the best in north america for feet solving until it was removed for hygiene reasons, and non-cubers wouldn't care. This isn't really why I'd like to keep feet, it's because it's simply fun for me. Of course, I'd be a little disappointed about losing my feet records, but I could very well lose them from other people anyway. I just have other reasons, too.

I seriously think that feet should remain an official event. It's so much fun and I feel kind of... athletic. It makes me get off my butt when I've been sitting at a desk for so long and start doing something else. My friends from school are actually more impressed by my feet NAR than my 2x2 WR. This is because feet literally looks so complex and anybody could grab a standard cube at home and start turning it with their feet and admire how I can do about 2 turns a second when it takes them a whole minute to turn one. WHO CARES if it is a slow turning event. At the Indiana competitions, around 3 events would be held at once. When feet is held, the audience is waayyyyyyy more leaned towards watching feet. Why? Because it's special. My family LOVES watching feet. What kind of non-cuber wants to go to a competition and watch the same thing over and over -- people solving cubes over and over, in the same area. Feet just has a completely different setup, which gives the audience something DIFFERENT. NEW. INTERESTING. 

As for the whole hygiene argument, I personally wash my feet well before every feet event. At home and at comps; it helps my times, actually. I'm pretty confident that feet are cleaner than hands, especially at competitions where hands are touching tons of cubes the entire day. In fact, I got a skin infection that we are sure was from my MIT competition. It lasted 8 months. Even if I didn't get it from a competition, I'm sure that I spread that thing to many cubers at the two competition I went to with it (Hillsdale Winter + Toronto Spring 2012). I don't think that kind of stuff will spread with feet. In all of my feet competitions, it has never smelled bad in the event. Also, at my last feet competition, Holy Toledo, feet was in a completely separate room and anybody could choose to watch OR not watch it. Yes, I'm aware that not all competitions have the ability to do this, but if possible, I'd encourage this to get rid of people saying "It's a distraction/annoying" at the competition (although I've never heard this quote).

I definitely don't support the removal of the event. My family will be sooo disappointed, as I said, because it brings fun and action. Did I not mention how the event is THE PHYSICAL REASON that I got onto America's Got Talent? Did I not mention that some of the best producers in the world that literally know exactly what an audience likes TOLD ME TO DO FEET ON THE SHOW?! Amazing, right? If the event was removed, I wouldn't be uploading videos of it, knowing that I wouldn't practice a non-WCA event (similar to how I was pretty darn good at magic and I stopped practicing as soon as it was removed), and this would mean that I simply wouldn't have been scouted to the show. Simon Westlund also did feet and got much attention on Britain's Got Talent. I'm pretty sure he doesn't do non-WCA events either. 

By the way, who wants a pleasant experience at comps? I LIKE ACTION! 

Lastly, that whole +2 penalty thing doesn't do much... Are you really going to freak out because the audience will ask you a question "Did you even solve it?" and you just have to say "Per WCA Regulations, 1 move away is a +2 second penalty; faster than the time it takes for me to do the actual move". If this bothers you, you are certainly anti-social and don't want to interact with your audience.

EDIT:



Kirjava said:


> Feet actually started out as a joke. Not making this up.



Your point is...? Surprising an audience with a funny event is pretty hilarious. JOKES are GOOD! FUNNY = ENJOYABLE = GOOD COMPETITION EXPERIENCE!


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## Ninja Storm (Jul 6, 2014)

Magic was removed because of judging difficulties.

People want feet removed because they think it really hurts the image of the speedcuber to others. And why should that matter? Why should the opinion of others influence the community? Why should Russia's view on capitalism change the way the US government works?

Other reasons seem valid, but "feet doesn't make us look good" is the stupidest reason to consider removing the event.


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## Ranzha (Jul 7, 2014)

I don't actively participate in Feet and don't intend to, but have no opinion on its removal.
Disclaimer: I have not witnessed competition in Feet up-close since 2011. At the next competition BASC organises, we want to hold feet.

Some points I've considered that weren't addressed here:

- Feet requires organisers to "set the stage" a little differently, since it is one of only two events to not have a timer+mat on a table. (The other event is FMC.) Naturally, this is what organisers "sign up for" if they want to hold feet, but it can disturb the rhythm/flow of the competition, particularly if there are many solving stations to set up/tear down.

- Unlike Magic and Master Magic, there are no logistical issues which make consistently judging feet impossible. However, writing down scores surfaceless and crouching to check for something like misalignment penalties takes a bit more effort/resource for judges than is usually required. Of course, the argument can be made that holding up a shield during BLD or keeping clocks from falling at the start of inspection requires more effort/resource for judges as well, so the issue of higher-responsibility judging isn't Feet-specific.

Sets of questions I have for anyone to answer:
1. Where do you most frequently attend competitions? How is Feet viewed in your competition community? How frequently do competitions you attend hold feet?
2. If you attend a competition where feet is held, and there is media coverage, does the media choose to record feet solves? What do you think of the exposure cubing gets from the media overall? What impact does media portrayal of solving with feet has on the public view of cubing, if applicable?
3. Besides those who have participated in feet, who is affected if feet were to be removed?
4. What sort of respect do you think feet deserves as an event currently?


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## antoineccantin (Jul 7, 2014)

Sa967St said:


> A common "abuse" of the +2 misalignment penalty is to not perform the last move in a Feet solve if it would take more than 2 seconds. Removing Feet would resolve this problem.


That's seriously a terrible argument. Unless you average over about 5 minutes, this doesn't even give you an actual advantage. People slower than this shouldn't be competing in the event anyway.



LucidCuber said:


> I think that it is the best candidate for an event to be removed. Although I'm not too fussed for now. I would agree that it's the least professional event.


Sure, but I think things work well as they are now. Removing an event isn't very useful.




Kirjava said:


> Feet actually started out as a joke. Not making this up.


I swear I saw somewhere that it was started partially because of Will Arnold or somebody who couldn't use their hands to solve it?




Lazy Einstein said:


> I don't practice feet YET and I think it should NOT be an official event.
> 
> My reason:
> - Most WCA comps do not have every event at every comp. So if you live in a place where few comps happen every year than you only have the chance to participate in so many official events a year. It would suck if you couldn't do sq-1 or 5x5x5 BLD because feet was given a spot over them.



Most WCA comps do not have every event at every comp. So if you live in a place where few comps happen every year than you can probably never do feet.



> - It seems that the majority of people who participate in feet are big on Sum of rank standings. Removing feet would give people big on Sum of Rank standings more time to practice for other official events.
> - In regards to feet being popular, if people like feet they will keep on doing it even if it isn't an official event. Big blind 6x6x6+ isn't official, yet many people seem to really enjoy it.



All three of you arguments could be said for absolutely any other event.



Ninja Storm said:


> Why should Russia's view on capitalism change the way the US government works?



Russia is capitalist lol


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## BrianJ (Jul 7, 2014)

Ranzha V. Emodrach said:


> Of course, the argument can be made that holding up a shield during BLD or keeping clocks from falling at the start of inspection requires more effort/resource for judges as well, so the issue of higher-responsibility judging isn't Feet-specific.



At Iowa Corn Lovers, I forgot my clock so I judged clock instead. I constantly dropped the clock on the table and had to get it rescrambled. Six times, infact. I don't think judging feet would be as difficult as judging clock.


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## Ranzha (Jul 7, 2014)

CubeCube said:


> At Iowa Corn Lovers, I forgot my clock so I judged clock instead. I constantly dropped the clock on the table and had to get it rescrambled. Six times, infact. I don't think judging feet would be as difficult as judging clock.



I wasn't making a comparison between how difficult feet and clock are to judge.

Again: the issue of higher-responsibility judging isn't Feet-specific.


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## Kirjava (Jul 7, 2014)

antoineccantin said:


> I swear I saw somewhere that it was started partially because of Will Arnold or somebody who couldn't use their hands to solve it?



Nope


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## qqwref (Jul 7, 2014)

Ninja Storm said:


> People want feet removed because they think it really hurts the image of the speedcuber to others. And why should that matter? Why should the opinion of others influence the community? Why should Russia's view on capitalism change the way the US government works?


What about people inside the community, then? Feet hurts the image of cubing to *me*, and I doubt I'm the only one.


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## Ranzha (Jul 7, 2014)

Kirjava said:


> Nope



Can confirm; Anders spoke about it at the Worlds regulations meeting last year.


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## DeeDubb (Jul 7, 2014)

I definitely agree with Rami. Rami and Simon both have used feet to put the cube into the national spotlight. That's pretty amazing and significant. I have zero interest in doing feet solves, but I think it should remain an event.

Also, feet are much more hygienic than most people's hands. We touch so many things throughout the day that our hands are covered with germs. Our feet stay in our shoes. Sure, sweaty feet are gross, but I think most serious feet competitors don't want sweaty feet because it will hurt their solves. Maybe organizers can have hand sanitizer available for competitors to sanitize their feet with if hygiene is a major concern.


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## AKOM (Jul 7, 2014)

Coolster01 said:


> I seriously think that feet should remain an official event. It's so much fun and I feel kind of... athletic. It makes me get off my butt when I've been sitting at a desk for so long and start doing something else. My friends from school are actually more impressed by my feet NAR than my 2x2 WR. This is because feet literally looks so complex and anybody could grab a standard cube at home and start turning it with their feet and admire how I can do about 2 turns a second when it takes them a whole minute to turn one. WHO CARES if it is a slow turning event. At the Indiana competitions, around 3 events would be held at once. When feet is held, the audience is waayyyyyyy more leaned towards watching feet. Why? Because it's special. My family LOVES watching feet. What kind of non-cuber wants to go to a competition and watch the same thing over and over -- people solving cubes over and over, in the same area. Feet just has a completely different setup, which gives the audience something DIFFERENT. NEW. INTERESTING.
> 
> As for the whole hygiene argument, I personally wash my feet well before every feet event. At home and at comps; it helps my times, actually. I'm pretty confident that feet are cleaner than hands, especially at competitions where hands are touching tons of cubes the entire day. In fact, I got a skin infection that we are sure was from my MIT competition. It lasted 8 months. Even if I didn't get it from a competition, I'm sure that I spread that thing to many cubers at the two competition I went to with it (Hillsdale Winter + Toronto Spring 2012). I don't think that kind of stuff will spread with feet. In all of my feet competitions, it has never smelled bad in the event. Also, at my last feet competition, Holy Toledo, feet was in a completely separate room and anybody could choose to watch OR not watch it. Yes, I'm aware that not all competitions have the ability to do this, but if possible, I'd encourage this to get rid of people saying "It's a distraction/annoying" at the competition (although I've never heard this quote).
> 
> ...



I totally agree with that.

Furthermore i don't understand the whole unsanitary argument, it seems a little exaggerated to me. How get your feet dirty over the competition, you have socks and shoes around them whereas your hands touch many public surfaces in toilets or trains or busses, or competitors are ill and spread bacteria over the cube or her hands. Basically i think hands are more unsanitary then feet (except feet diseases).

EDIT: 


DeeDubb said:


> Also, feet are much more hygienic than most people's hands. We touch so many things throughout the day that our hands are covered with germs. Our feet stay in our shoes. Sure, sweaty feet are gross, but I think most serious feet competitors don't want sweaty feet because it will hurt their solves. Maybe organizers can have hand sanitizer available for competitors to sanitize their feet with if hygiene is a major concern.


Yeah, just wrote the same.


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## Bob (Jul 7, 2014)

I have long been in support of removing 3x3 feet as an official event. My fingers are still crossed that 6x6, 7x7, 5x5BLD, and Multi are eventually removed, but I hate the 3x3 feet event so much more than the rest of them combined.

Some notes:
- I refuse to hold it at any competition I organize because it repulses me.
- For Worlds last year, we actually ordered separate timers for the 3x3 feet event and sold them after the event was finished.
- I think solving with feet is disgusting. For Worlds last year, I refused to touch the scorecards for the 3x3 feet event because the feet cubes touched them also. We had hand sanitizer at the scrambling table for accidental contact with feet cubes.
- Look at the registration costs for 3x3 with feet at US Nationals this year. If it were up to me, they'd be even higher.
- We have even joked about having registration costs for feet starting at $100 and reducing by $1 per day until 8 spots filled. After that, the event would be closed.
- Ew.


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## slinky773 (Jul 7, 2014)

Bob said:


> - I refuse to hold it at any competition I organize because it repulses me.
> - For Worlds last year, we actually ordered separate timers for the 3x3 feet event and sold them after the event was finished.
> - I think solving with feet is disgusting. For Worlds last year, I refused to touch the scorecards for the 3x3 feet event because the feet cubes touched them also. We had hand sanitizer at the scrambling table for accidental contact with feet cubes.
> - Look at the registration costs for 3x3 with feet at US Nationals this year. If it were up to me, they'd be even higher.
> ...



That's… a bit…extreme…

For all of the reasons that Rami, AKOM, DeeDubb, etc. have been saying, I don't find 3x3 WF nearly as disgusting as you clearly find it to be. I also doubt that everybody except for the 3x3 WF competitors finds it disgusting, like you do. If no one thought it was gross, your second item on your notes list wouldn't be a problem, since no one would have an issue with the whole sanitation thing. Neither would your third item. From the perspective of someone who doesn't think it's so disgusting, the whole fuss about not wanting to touch feet cubes, for example, seems quite silly, and I think most everybody like Rami will find it silly too.

On another note, why are the registration costs for 3x3 WF so high? Are they planning to buy separate timers, like you noted that Worlds last year did? Or something else?

As another side note, what's the fuss about multi? I just don't get it, I guess.


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## Coolster01 (Jul 7, 2014)

I feel so bad for brazilians and europeans who don't speak the language of English to be posting here. There are wayyyy more feet solvers in Brazil, and I'm sure nobody there thinks it's silly at all. 

speedsolving < the entire community. Feet lovers would DEFINITELY outnumber haters if they could give their opinion.


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## Villyer (Jul 7, 2014)

I'm not familiar with feet events, however reading through this thread it seems like the main points against it seem to be negative image and grossness.

Negative image is just that, an imaging issue. If the media views it negatively, the two big solutions are to remove it or to work on changing the view. So imaging alone wouldn't be the main issue, because if everyone loved the event they would just work harder to get it more accepted by the general public.

I suppose the idea of a poll like this comes down to seeing how much of the community views the competition as too gross, because if most are repulsed by it I can see that being a viable reason to be removed. I personally see no issue with it, sweaty feet may smell bad but as far as germs and hygiene go they are typically way outmatched by hand germs. Using wipes on timers between solves to get the sweat off seems like more than enough of a precaution, with hand sanitizer things in the area for anyone else who wants it.


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## Bob (Jul 7, 2014)

Coolster01 said:


> Think positive! High registration costs means the organizers make more money! Be a man, bro. You can't sustain some feet that had no contact with anything except socks, which the insides are clean all day? You may have some serious problems camping out or something. If you have touched bugs before, you shouldn't have a problem with feet. -_-



I am no stranger to getting dirty. In fact, I'm routinely filthy.



Spoiler











Spoiler









TBH, I'd *rather eat bugs and worms than touch feet cubes.

*


slinky773 said:


> That's… a bit…extreme…
> 
> On another note, why are the registration costs for 3x3 WF so high? Are they planning to buy separate timers, like you noted that Worlds last year did? Or something else?



We will have separate timers for them again this year, but the higher fee is mostly due to the inconvenience of the event I think. I don't think any of the organizers like it, but I'll let them speak for themselves.



slinky773 said:


> As another side note, what's the fuss about multi? I just don't get it, I guess.



It's very time consuming and requires too much manpower to run.


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## slinky773 (Jul 7, 2014)

Villyer said:


> Using wipes on timers between solves to get the sweat off seems like more than enough of a precaution, with hand sanitizer things in the area for anyone else who wants it.



This seems pretty reasonable to me.



Bob said:


> TBH, I'd *rather eat bugs and worms than touch feet cubes.*



Okay. Can you, uh, explain why that makes any sort of logical sense? Otherwise, it just seems like a phobia, or some irrationality to me, and probably to Rami and the rest of us.


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## antoineccantin (Jul 7, 2014)

How about covering the timers with plastic wrap before using them? I used to do that when I started feet solving, and it worked fine.


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## Tim Major (Jul 7, 2014)

Coolster01 said:


> It costs much less than the timers to get some wipes and gloves, especially considering the cost payed from competitors to compete in the event. You couldn't have thought of that idea at worlds?



Needing wipes, gloves, timers, plastic covers etc shows just how disgusting and ridiculous 3x3WF is.

You can't compare feet cubes with camping/etc because it's expected there. Why should we need special sanitizing equipment just for an event. 

I was camping for 5 days with friends recently, no running water or electricity and it was fine, I'm not some germaphobe. Instead of using an outdoor analogy, how about comparing it to going to a restaurant, but using your feet to use the cutlery. It'd be so out of place and "gross" even feet aren't inherently gross, it's the context.


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## anders (Jul 7, 2014)

To get the historical facts correct: feetsolving started with me. When I talked to a media representative before WC 2003, I mentioned that I had solved the cube with my feet in the 1980ies. She got it, and asked if I could do it on tv. I was a bit skeptic, but she insisted. Thus, I solved the cube with my feet in Canadian tv at WC 2003 and I also did a demo solve at the afterparty. The Seven Town people loved it and insisted that it should be an event on Euro 2004. I was the only registered competitor, but I talked a fellow Swedish cuber into taking part, and I ended up in second place. The rest is history.

Happy feetsolving,
Anders


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## antoineccantin (Jul 7, 2014)

anders said:


> To get the historical facts correct: feetsolving started with me. When I talked to a media representative before WC 2003, I mentioned that I had solved the cube with my feet in the 1980ies. She got it, and asked if I could do it on tv. I was a bit skeptic, but she insisted. Thus, I solved the cube with my feet in Canadian tv at WC 2003 and I also did a demo solve at the afterparty. The Seven Town people loved it and insisted that it should be an event on Euro 2004. I was the only registered competitor, but I talked a fellow Swedish cuber into taking part, and I ended up in second place. The rest is history.
> 
> Happy feetsolving,
> Anders



What's the thing I heard about with the guy that could only solve it with his feet then? Do you know of this?


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## XTowncuber (Jul 7, 2014)

Coolster01 said:


> I'm digging that uniqueness that gets the audience going, "woah! something FUN to watch at a rubik's cube competition!"



Well, my family for one does not react that way. at all. They think that solving with feet is pretty much the worst idea anyone had ever. Just saying, idk if the spectators are as enthusiastic as you think they are 

To see my opinions, read Bob's post.


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## Coolster01 (Jul 7, 2014)

XTowncuber said:


> Just saying, idk if the spectators are as enthusiastic as you think they are



In my NAR video, you'll hear things like "How does one reach tps at this level?" (from a solver next to me) and some compliments from Mike Hughey's children. I might have exaggerated a bit, but I seem to hear more positive than negative in that video. Might just be me xD


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## thatboyahcubah (Jul 7, 2014)

Bob said:


> I have long been in support of removing 3x3 feet as an official event. My fingers are still crossed that 6x6, 7x7, 5x5BLD, and Multi are eventually removed, but I hate the 3x3 feet event so much more than the rest of them combined.
> 
> Some notes:
> - I refuse to hold it at any competition I organize because it repulses me.
> ...




this sounds like a irrational phobia than a legitimate logical argument, to me.
-refusing to hold an event because of personal preference even when people clearly participate in it is unprofessional.
-using separate timers is understandable, however selling them afterwards is a waste considering you could use those timers for other feet comps if you insist on using separate timers.
-definitely a phobia. coming in contact with feet cubes is not a disease. refusing to touch scorecards "feetcubers" simply TOUCHED is frankly ridiculous, and also extremely rude to cubers who participate
-making cubers pay more money to participate in something that really doesn't take much more effort than, say, multiBLD is also irrational.
-^
-you sound like a little girl complaining about feet.
/
side note, "feet cubers" should not be a term at all. we are all cubers and should not have different names for the events we participate in. do we call feliks a 34567cuber because he participates in 3x3 4x4 5x5 6x6 and 7x7? no. 
I don't even feet solve and am honestly indifferent about the removal of the event; however, your irrational dislike for 3x3 feet is ridiculous and, as I said, rude to cubers who participate in 3x3 feet.


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## AJ Blair (Jul 7, 2014)

All I have to say is that, due to genetic skin disease, there are times that I CANNOT use my hands to cube due to the blistering that happens. Feet has been my outlet to feel as though I can still be a part of the community when this happens. This is the only community that I have ever been a part of due to my condition. I couldn't do sports and I can't travel easily due to it and speedcubing has single-handedly made me the person I am today. 3x3 with Feet has made me feel connected to people in a way that I never possible.

I know it doesn't mean much and I know that one person's feelings are no reason to keep something in play, but I feel very passionately about cubing and about this community and felt the need to say something.

Proof of "Yucky blistery hands" (and this is my hands looking "normal", not all that bad)


All I ask is that "Ew, that's gross" not be a driving reason for the removal of feet. Because, with my hands often in this kind of condition, the same argument could be used to prevent me from cubing, due to my touching of the cubes with "gross blisters" all over.


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## SolveThatCube (Jul 7, 2014)

thatboyahcubah said:


> seriously? we're arguing over the cleanliness of feet when your feet touch literally nothing besides the inside of your sock? and people hand touch toilet seats, other ppls cubes, door handles, bus seats, and literally everything else?



And phones.



kclejeune said:


> While it is an unpopular event, and I do not care for it myself, I do not believe it should be removed. I guarantee removing it will **** a lot of people off who have worked hard at it. If we were to remove skewb because it's different and it were considered "unpopular" you and I would both be rather pissed. The same goes for those who work hard for feet. I usually scramble a LOT at competitions, by the end of the day, my hands are sweaty anyway. Let's be real here. Hands touch all sorts of disgusting objects. Feet are simply in our shoes, never really touching much of anything. Overall I feel that it isn't broken, don't try to fix it. People enjoy the event, so just leave it. It isn't hurting anyone.



Exactly. 

Some of you guys are disgusted by it, but then, just don't compete in it. Like when I hear 4x4 or 5x5 BLD I want to fall asleep, but I'm not gonna ask if the WCA can remove it, I just won't compete in it. 
At Thailand Championship 2014 when we started feet, lots of spectators started gathering around, pulling out there phones and filming it, not just Thai people, but farangs too. (foreigners) People are amazed by it and like Kennan said: People have worked hard at it. (Not me really.)

If you're going to remove 3x3 with feet you might as well remove OH.


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## anders (Jul 7, 2014)

antoineccantin said:


> What's the thing I heard about with the guy that could only solve it with his feet then? Do you know of this?



I suppose you mean Will Arnold (2005ARNO01). He is part of the history


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## thatboyahcubah (Jul 7, 2014)

Debating the cleanliness of feet is ridiculous. 
If you don't like people doing feet, don't watch.
If you don't like doing feet, don't do feet.

But removing the event at all is like a slap in the face to people who like feet, considering the work they've put into it. Hays will be outraged if 6x6 or 7x7 is ever removed, just like a lot of people who cube with feet will be outraged.


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## AlexMaass (Jul 7, 2014)

antoineccantin said:


> What's the thing I heard about with the guy that could only solve it with his feet then? Do you know of this?


I think it was some guy Will Arnold, http://madeinatlantis.com/life/speed_cubing.htm, he had a birth defect so he couldn't really use his arms.


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## bpwhiteout (Jul 7, 2014)

Honestly, If sanitation is a concern, make it a regulation that competitors must wash their feet before their solves. You could even have a bucket of water near the feet area, which is most certainly cheaper than buying stackmat timers.
Also, I believe that WCA competition is certainly more important to the people IN competitions than people OUTSIDE of competitions. I've never heard anything bad about feet solving myself, but whether there is or isn't, I think the media side is irrelevant.

I haven't practised feet, but if there were a competition with the feet solving event, i'd practice it and join it. It seems like it'd be a lot of fun.
There's also the feet are cleaner than hands argument, but many others have already said that, so I'll leave that one to the others.

Overall, I don't see much of a reason to remove it. 3 of those 5 Pros are pretty similar, so there aren't really that many pros to be honest. Not to mention the fact that the +2 penalty could be changed if that is an issue.

Keep feet.


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## Kit Clement (Jul 7, 2014)

Most of my opinions on keeping feet have been stated already, but I'd like to add these points:

- This is a very US-centric forum, and of any major cubing country, the US is the most against feet, seeing how infrequently this event is held here. Thus, I believe poll results that come from this should be taken with a grain of salt.
- Removing Feet sets an interesting precedent for removing events that could lead to the eventual removal of other events which may upset more of the community. Magic/Master Magic was removed due to inconsistent results caused by judging inaccuracies, so it's easy to understand why these events were removed. There's no reason near as strong at this for any other current event, so it would open the door to removing more events besides feet. If we're concerned with community opinion, then while the opinion might be more in favor of removing feet, they may not support this if other events will be removed.


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## jpthesolver (Jul 7, 2014)

*Feet solving*

I feel overall it would be efficient to remove feet solving. The amount of people who perform in this event is very small compared to all other events. It has gone to increase prices to compete in feet solving and has created usually only a single round. For example, US Nationals 2014, most event cost $4 and have 2-4 rounds, feet solving on the other hand (or should I say on the other foot :3) feet solving has one round and costs $13. Feet solving is a pretty rare event due to the lack of competitors. There are events such as clock which has a small crowd, but large compared to how many people feet solve. Also, the amount of people who do clock increase, while feet if anything decreases. I just think that almost no delegate or organizer wants to have feet solving, it's just not a common, efficient or used event.


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## maps600 (Jul 7, 2014)

I know that some fast solvers would be very disappointed if feet solving was removed. However, if it is replaced by a more successful event, I will definitely agree to remove it.


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## uberCuber (Jul 7, 2014)

jpthesolver said:


> The amount of people who perform in this event is very small compared to all other events.



There are less people in each of 4BLD/5BLD/MBLD, and without actually looking I would hazard a guess that each of those events gets less competitions around the world than feet does.

EDIT: I suppose there are actually more people attempting MultiBLD than feet, there are just a lot of people who don't have an official success


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## AJ Blair (Jul 7, 2014)

jpthesolver said:


> The amount of people who perform in this event is very small compared to all other events.



It's hard to have people compete if the event isn't offered to compete in...just saying.


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## Tim Major (Jul 7, 2014)

Kit Clement said:


> - This is a very US-centric forum, and of any major cubing country, the US is the most against feet, seeing how infrequently this event is held here. Thus, I believe poll results that come from this should be taken with a grain of salt.



Nope, Australia is more against feet, we've never hosted it. There are other countries that also dislike feet more than the US


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## Kit Clement (Jul 7, 2014)

Tim Major said:


> Nope, Australia is more against feet, we've never hosted it. There are other countries that also dislike feet more than the US



Okay, maybe not the most, but the US definitely doesn't like feet. Regardless, it seems to be very popular in many European and South American countries that do not voice their opinions here.


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## Ranzha (Jul 7, 2014)

Some numbers:


```
Country             #compsWF  |#2014comps |%comps WF|#compsWF / 2014compsWF
United Kingdom      4          4           100.00%                    6.67%
Finland             2          2           100.00%                    3.33%
Belarus             1          1           100.00%                    1.67%
Singapore           1          1           100.00%                    1.67%
Thailand            1          1           100.00%                    1.67%
Brazil              8          9            88.89%                   13.33%
Spain               8         10            80.00%                   13.33%
Poland             10         15            66.67%                   16.67%
Ukraine             4          6            66.67%                    6.67%
Denmark             2          3            66.67%                    3.33%
Russia              2          4            50.00%                    3.33%
Norway              1          2            50.00%                    1.67%
Slovenia            1          2            50.00%                    1.67%
Belgium             1          3            33.33%                    1.67%
Indonesia           1          4            25.00%                    1.67%
Sweden              1          4            25.00%                    1.67%
Germany             2          9            22.22%                    3.33%
France              1          6            16.67%                    1.67%
Philippines         1          6            16.67%                    1.67%
Japan               1          7            14.29%                    1.67%
Italy               1          8            12.50%                    1.67%
China               2         19            10.53%                    3.33%
India               2         24             8.33%                    3.33%
USA                 2         31             6.45%                    3.33%
Canada              0          7             0.00%                    
Australia           0          6             0.00%
Colombia            0          5             0.00%
Taiwan              0          5             0.00%                    
Venezuela           0          5             0.00%                    
Peru                0          4             0.00%                    
Romania             0          3             0.00%                    
Vietnam             0          3             0.00%                    
Chile               0          2             0.00%                    
Dominican Republic  0          2             0.00%                    
Mexico              0          2             0.00%                    
Turkey              0          2             0.00%                    
Argentina           0          1             0.00%                    
Austria             0          1             0.00%                    
Guatemala           0          1             0.00%                    
Iceland             0          1             0.00%                    
Iran                0          1             0.00%                    
Israel              0          1             0.00%                    
Korea               0          1             0.00%                    
Netherlands         0          1             0.00%                    
New Zealand         0          1             0.00%                    
Portugal            0          1             0.00%                    
South Africa        0          1             0.00%                    
Switzerland         0          1             0.00%                    
                                                  
Total
48 countries        60       239            25.10%
```

If this is tough to understand, here's a column-by-column guide:
UK has held feet at 4 competitions in 2014.
UK has hosted 4 competitions in 2014.
100% of the 2014 UK competitions have held feet.
6.67% of the 2014 competitions that have held feet have been hosted in the UK.


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## IRNjuggle28 (Jul 7, 2014)

uberCuber said:


> There are less people in each of 4BLD/5BLD/MBLD, and without actually looking I would hazard a guess that each of those events gets less competitions around the world than feet does.



People who don't attempt BLD events do that because of lack of ability. People who don't attempt feet do so because of lack of interest. It's an important difference.


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## GrandSlam (Jul 7, 2014)

Honestly, I think anybody who doesn't feet solve should have no say in this.
It's like a non-cuber saying that all competitions should end just because rubik's cubes are too hard.
that's just my opinion, I am a non-foot solver so maybe I am wrong.


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## rybaby (Jul 7, 2014)

GrandSlam said:


> Honestly, I think anybody who doesn't feet solve should have no say in this.
> It's like a non-cuber saying that all competitions should end just because rubik's cubes are too hard.
> that's just my opinion, I am a non-foot solver so maybe I am wrong.



Analogy time:
If you are familiar with some basketball history, you know the 24-second shot clock was introduced to speed up the pace of the game. Why speed up the pace? Make the spectators happy. Should the spectators have no say in what they want to see? Similarly, I think the whole community can have a say. Plus we can get less biased views that way. Is a top foot-cuber going to say they don't like the event and it should be removed? I highly doubt it.


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## GrandSlam (Jul 7, 2014)

rybaby said:


> Analogy time:
> If you are familiar with some basketball history, you know the 24-second shot clock was introduced to speed up the pace of the game. Why speed up the pace? Make the spectators happy. Should the spectators have no say in what they want to see? Similarly, I think the whole community can have a say. Plus we can get less biased views that way. Is a top foot-cuber going to say they don't like the event and it should be removed? I highly doubt it.



First of all, what I really meant was that people with no real experience with foot solving, people who don't understand it at all, should not be involved. Or, if you would prefer another analogy, kids don't vote for president due to basic lack of understanding in the area of politics. Those basketball fans knew the game well enough to understand that it could be improved upon.

Maybe some sort of compromise can be made. Maybe foot-solvers shoild wear... feet gloves.

Don't judge me for overusing my imagination. After all, I am a kid. My imagination is my strong point!


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## DeeDubb (Jul 7, 2014)

Sa967St said:


> Feet is arguably the most *unsanitary* event, since feet are often much less clean than hands





qqwref said:


> I hope feet gets removed. My reasoning is covered in your Pros list already (negative media attention, *unsanitary,* doesn't add much as an event).





strakerak said:


> Feet is *unsanitary*, I can agree.



Source? Anyone? Honestly, I can't really find a source either way other than speculation, which tends to lead towards more germs being on hands than feet on average.


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## Sajwo (Jul 7, 2014)

I demand removing feet as official event. It is gross, stupid and nobody likes it.



Spoiler



clock too


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## GrandSlam (Jul 7, 2014)

DeeDubb said:


> Source? Anyone? Honestly, I can't really find a source either way other than speculation, which tends to lead towards more germs being on hands than feet on average.



You make a good point. After all, we have no idea where any cubers hands have been since washing them last, while feet generally stay protected and clean by shoes and socks.


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## ALX (Jul 7, 2014)

Feet needs to go ASAP. It's disgusting, unsanitary, looks stupid, and isn't very popular either. I would support it going. At this point, they already make the price for competing in feet unreasonably high for many competitions (who thought $15 for one event was a fair price?). I also feel that the removal if Feet could benefit the community b y making room for more worthy events, such as 8x8, Curvy Copter, Master Skewb, Master Pyraminx, Gear Cube, etc. Imo, there are plenty of events that should take it's place .


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## Deleted member 19792 (Jul 7, 2014)

GrandSlam said:


> You make a good point. After all, we have no idea where any cubers hands have been since washing them last, while feet generally stay protected and clean by shoes and socks.





DeeDubb said:


> Source? Anyone? Honestly, I can't really find a source either way other than speculation, which tends to lead towards more germs being on hands than feet on average.




But yet again, what about people's feet after they shower and while they are walking around the house, sleeping in their bed, going to the toilet, or whatever they do in their home? Can't that make things really unsanitary? And you are going to be walking around on the floor before you compete, right? What the hell has been on that floor? Dirt? Water? Someone's vomit after smelling feet? It might be "cleaned up", but we don't know since they probably didn't disinfect the floors.


About two and a half minutes into this video, VSauce talks about 93% of our shoes are contaminated with fecal bacteria. So, we might apply this to feet, but we aren't walking barefoot outside. So how about inside? Since the bacteria can be transferred?


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## GrandSlam (Jul 7, 2014)

GrandSlam said:


> Actually, feet solving is extremely impressive to non-cubers. And we all know, deep inside, that cubing is all about impressing non-cubers.
> JK.





strakerak said:


> But yet again, what about people's feet after they shower and while they are walking around the house, sleeping in their bed, going to the toilet, or whatever they do in their home? Can't that make things really unsanitary? And you are going to be walking around on the floor before you compete, right? What the hell has been on that floor? Dirt? Water? Someone's vomit after smelling feet? It might be "cleaned up", but we don't know since they probably didn't disinfect the floors.
> 
> 
> This might relate to feet:
> ...



I still agree with DeeDubb. I won't agree with the unsanitary until I see some real scientific evidence specifically involving feet and cubes. Also, I have watched a few feet solving videos, and in most of them the competitors have clean-looking feet, and all of them take their shoes off only seconds before beginning the solve.

Again, maybe I don't have enough experience with foot solving. I would like to hear from somebody who actually has experience involving feet Cubing.


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## Deleted member 19792 (Jul 7, 2014)

GrandSlam said:


> I still agree with DeeDubb. I won't agree with the unsanitary until I see some real scientific evidence specifically involving feet and cubes. Also, I have watched a few feet solving videos, and in most of them the competitors have clean-looking feet, and all of them take their shoes off only seconds before beginning the solve.
> 
> Again, maybe I don't have enough experience with foot solving. I would like to hear from somebody who actually has experience involving feet Cubing.



Things look clean but are they really clean?


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## GrandSlam (Jul 7, 2014)

strakerak said:


> Things look clean but are they really clean?




All sanitization issues aside for now, you have to admit that foot solving is impressive. If only 1% of the human race can solve a rubik's cube, then only 1% of cubers can foot solve.

Foot solving is a great talent, but if people are worried about it's sanitation, then suggest a compromise to the WCA. Ask them to provide means of cleaning those supposedly dirty feet.


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## pandakenleh (Jul 7, 2014)

I believe it should remain an official event.

Imagine this, if there are people with disabilities(born with no hand)/lost their both hands and really love speedcubing.
What will happen if they(WCA) remove that event?

Example of this one is Matt Stutzman, an archer born with no arms but still the current world record holder for longest accurate shot in archery. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matt_Stutzman ). I read his story because of this thread. You can google that.
An archer using his foot in holding the bow and his mouth in pulling the string. Is that awesome?
His disability was not a hindrance in his sport/hobby.

Haha.What will happen *IF* you/I accidentally lost your/my hands?
Your/My whole life was ruined. No more official competitions *forever*. 
You can't do OH. You can't do 2H because the timer must stop by both hands.
The 3x3x3 feet is only the event that you can compete with others. You can do other puzzles with your feet but not as fast as the others because they have hands.


Just sayin' )


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## Erik (Jul 7, 2014)

Sa967St said:


> The goal of this thread is to determine how much support there is for removing 3x3x3 With Feet, and to build a solid list of pros and cons for its potential removal, to take into consideration for the 2015 Regulations.
> 
> 
> Questions for everyone:
> ...



Yes, it is an event where a special set of skills is needed. It adds another dimension to cubing, just like BLD or FMC. I think we can agree that skill-wize: feet adds much more than something like 7x7 which typically is an event people who solve 6x6 fast, are also good at. (or you can argue it the other way around saying people solving 7x7 mostly are fast at 6x6 as well).

I will add to the pro and con's list below. In short: I think the lack of good pro-removal arguments, makes it a bad candidate to be removed.



> *Would you support the removal of 3x3x3 With Feet? Why or why not*?



That highly depends on which reasons you have for removing. If the main reason is: "I have a feet-phobia" which some people seem to have (not trying to step on anyone's toes here, but if you rather eat worms than solve with feet you seriously seem to have some sort of phobia unless you are Bear Grylls) then this wouldn't make much sense.

If however you would remove it because it is not very popular then I would not be that bothered. However, if that would be the reasoning I would also like to see other events go as well.




> Here's a start on a list of pros and cons for removing Feet, mostly based on discussions in other threads.
> 
> *Note: They are not meant to be interpreted as solid reasons on their own to remove/keep Feet. They are merely pros and cons that would come out of its removal.*
> 
> ...


Pleaese provide some backup here, because I don't have this experience. Maybe not many people know this but I also took part in a TV show to solve feet. The attention was merely *positive. *Same goes for all media encounters I have had which covered something with feet. Not once have I had a negative comment. The closest to a negative comments I get are things like "ok, that's a bit odd, but very impressive". And to be honest: I think traveling 2000miles to compete in a Rubik's cube competition can also be rightly called "a bit odd" in the first place ;-)



> Feet is arguably the most unsanitary event, since feet are often much less clean than hands. Feet solving (both official solves and practice solves at competitions) can contribute to an unpleasant atmosphere to spectators and non-Feet competitors, so its removal would give a more pleasant experience at competitions.



Again: can you provide some information to back this up, other than: it may smell a bit sweaty. I don't know about you, but I keep my feet in my shoes all day long and they don't touch:
- other people
- other people's cubes
- genitals (yes there are people not washing their hands after going to the loo)
- cell phone screens
- etc

Using this logical thinking: if you have a fear of feet, you must also have a fear of hands.

Also: if you want to avoid the much-feared smell, just organize it as the first event and not after 8 hours of competition...



> Fewer people are willing to judge and/or scramble for Feet relative to other events, and it's not so great to have to force people to do either at a competition. It would also be more pleasant for scramblers and judges for other 3x3x3 events to know that competitors don't use the same cube for other 3x3x3 events right after using it for Feet solves.



I am sorry, but this is a non-argument. At least in Europe the unwritten rules state that you don't have to judge an event you are not competing in. Make 2 groups for feet and there is no problem. I'm sure people competing in feet don't have a problem judging feet as well. If they do then they are a hypocrit and it wouldn't be a problem forcing those people to judge anyway.



> 3x3x3 With Feet did not add much as an event in the first place, compared to other events. As a 3x3x3 variant, all it added was another twist to solving a 3x3x3 using a regular speed method, which One-Handed already did, and did better. Its removal would be a small loss in variety of events



Like I stated above: feet adds more dimension and requires more skill to speedcubing than for example 7x7. 



> A common "abuse" of the +2 misalignment penalty is to not perform the last move in a Feet solve if it would take more than 2 seconds. Removing Feet would resolve this problem.


If you really need more than 2 seconds to do a turn with feet, then you are so slow that nobody cares about your times anyway. (if you assume 70 quarter turns per solve, this would mean you are at like 2:20 and would be doing moves without ANY pauses, so realistically speaking much slower than 2:20 since looking around is usually the biggest time waster). If anything this "problem" is not a problem caused by the event, but by the +2 rule.

Adding pro's:


The lack of popularity in big parts of the community. This is a bit of a chicken-egg thing, because people don't do feet, because they can't do it in comp. But then again: people can't do it in comp, because it is not very popular. Of course everyone is free to organize a competition holding feet as an event themselves, but the way it is, it does not seem the most popular event.
Rebuilding the stage takes a bit of time. This is not a very strong argument, but I think it should be added for the sake of being thorough. The rebuild does not take much time at all, and the event itself is not slow either, but it is a small factor.



> Cons for removing Feet:
> 
> 
> Removing the event would make all Feet solves unofficial. It would take away Feet records that took a lot of effort to accomplish.
> ...


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## DeeDubb (Jul 7, 2014)

strakerak said:


> About two and a half minutes into this video, VSauce talks about 93% of our shoes are contaminated with fecal bacteria. So, we might apply this to feet, but we aren't walking barefoot outside. So how about inside? Since the bacteria can be transferred?



Mythbusters did something with toothbrushes and fecal bacteria, and it turned out that fecal bacteria is simply everywhere, and not really harmful.


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## BaMiao (Jul 7, 2014)

The people questioning whether or not feet are unsanitary have obviously never been inside a gym locker room or had to live in a college dorm. Or is foot fungus just an American problem? And keeping your feet inside shoes and socks doesn't keep them clean. It turns out that bacteria and fungus just _love_ dark, damp, warm environments.

I think we should be worried about how things like feet solving appear to the general community. I am because I want to see the community grow, and I think feet solving is likely to turn people away from cubing in general. Sure, people are impressed by it, but in many minds it isn't any more than a cheap parlor trick. Besides, in talking with non-cubers, I've found that they're much more impressed with the BLD events, and yet people don't hear about it as much because the media is so focused on feet.


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## Tim Major (Jul 7, 2014)

SolveThatCube said:


> Uh, people do. Just take a look.



100th in the world has a 2.63:1 ratio to the WR, that shows how much people DON'T care about feet. Only other comparable events to such a huge ratio are 4bld 5bld and multibld, and that's due to difficulty unlike feet.


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## bran (Jul 7, 2014)

GrandSlam said:


> All sanitization issues aside for now, you have to admit that foot solving is impressive. If only 1% of the human race can solve a rubik's cube, then only 1% of cubers can foot solve.
> 
> Foot solving is a great talent, but if people are worried about it's sanitation, then suggest a compromise to the WCA. Ask them to provide means of cleaning those supposedly dirty feet.



Um no, everyone who can solve a Rubik's cube CAN also solve it with their feet. There is nothing new that you have to learn, in addition to your normal method, to be able to solve a cube with your feet.


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## kinch2002 (Jul 7, 2014)

I'm afraid I haven't seen a single argument towards the removal of feet that I totally agree with.

- Enough has been said about how actually all our bodies and our hands especially are just as unhygienic. And also about people with 'feet-phobia'.
- It does not have any major logistical issues. Seriously, it takes 10 seconds to put a stackmat on the floor and put a chair behind it.
- I have only have positive media experience from it.
- The +2 issue is a reason to remove +2, not feet.
- It really doesn't matter how it started. It's the present state that counts.
- It does add a lot to 3x3 as a variation. In fact, I'd say that one-handed adds less than feet. Maybe people who don't feet don't realise this.


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## porkynator (Jul 7, 2014)

If feet wasn't an official event, would anyone start a thread asking to add it?
Hint:


Spoiler



No.


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## Cubesub1 (Jul 7, 2014)

I think it should remain as an event. I think it looks really cool. If went to a competition that had it I would definitly compete. I think that there is not the same stress as in other events, it's realaxing. I don't see a real reason why we should remove the event. There are no judging problems like there were with magic. There are not many comps that hold the event so why can't cyberspace that really like it have a few comps with feet to go to? The megaminx wr holder Simon Westlund he is Swedish and he was on Sweden got talent he did a feet solve as the first performance and everybody liked it. The jury even stod up when he solved it in 45 seconds. And he won the hole competition. He didn't only do feet ofcourse
So my point is it should be an event for 2015. There are no good reasons imo to remove it.


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## Kirjava (Jul 7, 2014)

Coolster01 said:


> speedsolving < the entire community. Feet lovers would DEFINITELY outnumber haters if they could give their opinion.



Two points;

Don't make claims like this with no evidence whatsoever to back it up.

Don't call people 'haters' just because they have a different opinion to you.


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## the super cuber (Jul 7, 2014)

i think that feet should definitely be removed. this is my personal opinion that its extremely unsanitary and degrading to cubing and an event that i really dont want to participate in although i want to complete all official events ( currently i have 15) the reason that there arent many feet solvers officially isnt because its challenging but because most people simply dont want to solve a cube with their feet and its the reason that organisers dont want to have 3x3 feet as an event in their competitions. and if feet is removed we could just classify i as an old event (like magic and mastermagic) and still let people keep their records.i admit that feet solving might sound cool or amazing to non cubers but in a cubing society i dont think its needed any longer.


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## kinch2002 (Jul 7, 2014)

porkynator said:


> If feet wasn't an official event, would anyone start a thread asking to add it?
> Hint:
> 
> 
> ...


I think you would see it suggested in that 'Next Event to add' thread.
Anyway, you could easily say the same of many other events including Fewest Moves (I mean, why would we want such a weird event in SPEEDsolving?). You could say the same of many events in most sports that have multiple events. Not needing to be added doesn't mean that it needs to be removed.


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## ryanj92 (Jul 7, 2014)

Just for clarification, most UK comps are two days long and run all day, and can therefore in most cases fit in every event, hence our high record... I'm sure if you calculated '% of comps where event x is held' then the UK would do pretty well all round 

I think it needs to be clarified that 'keeping feet solving' does not equate to saying 'you must hold and be exposed to feet solving every comp. you are the only judge and scrambler, have fun'. There are very few competitions which are obligated to hold feet, and in a lot of cases I think it can be arranged that the only people who have to deal with foot cubes are feet solvers themselves (have one group scramble/judge the other), so I think a lot of personal reasons aren't particularly useful in this case.

I think we can agree that feet solving is bizarre, and that provides appeal to some and disgust to others.


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## DeeDubb (Jul 7, 2014)

ryanj92 said:


> I think it needs to be clarified that 'keeping feet solving' does not equate to saying 'you must hold and be exposed to feet solving every comp. you are the only judge and scrambler, have fun'. There are very few competitions which are obligated to hold feet, and in a lot of cases I think it can be arranged that the only people who have to deal with foot cubes are feet solvers themselves (have one group scramble/judge the other),* so I think a lot of personal reasons aren't particularly useful in this case.*
> 
> I think we can agree that feet solving is bizarre, and that provides appeal to some and disgust to others.



I totally agree... It's extremely selfish to try to dictate to others based on your own personal feelings when it clearly doesn't affect you. This doesn't just apply to cubing, but life in general.

You don't like feet? Don't compete in it. You think it hurts the image? I think judgmental people hurt the image a lot more.


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## Richy (Jul 7, 2014)

There is a lot of people who like feet, including me. We put a lot of effort in the event and we like it. In my area (Spain) feet is seen by the vast majority of people as a hard event and not as a joke. Like most of the people who deffend feet, I think that feet tend to be cleaner because they are only in contact of the socks and if some people think that no, there is always a posibility of putting some plastic or similar on the timer.
Some people who organise competitions say that they don't like feet. A solution to this: don't add feet in your comp, but at least it's good that we can decide if we have or not feet in the comp ( if feet was removed we couldn't).
Some people may not know that feet is a quite hard event that is difficult to master and being removed will be a loss for a lot of people.


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## cmhardw (Jul 7, 2014)

I like the media attention feet cubing brings, and I think that it is mostly positive.

I have a lot of respect for feet cubers as I have tried feet solving a few times before and I always found it to be difficult.

If organizers don't like it then don't hold the event unless you have to (World/Nats/Euro)? Have separate timers, judges with gloves, etc. for the big tournaments when you do have to hold feet? In my opinion, the hygiene issue has already been solved based on what people have already said. To fix the smell issue you could require sanitary wipes be used by all cubers before their solves, or a wet wipe or something to that effect. Cruise ships require you to use one before eating in the cafeteria/dining room. Why not require them for people competing in feet at our tournaments to reduce the smell in the footcubing area?

One downside to our yearly review system for rules is that every year there is a clamor to remove events. I wish that events being added or removed was decided some way else, either by the board alone based on a previously agreed upon criteria, or every two or three years by community vote.

Having to read the "Let's add/remove events X" every single year feels very inefficient. People have been wanting to be rid of feet for almost 10 years now and this very thread recurs a lot. However, feet still remains so that tells me that *more* people want feet as an event than want it removed. 

If enough people who make the decisions wanted feet to be removed, it probably would have already been removed some point in the last almost 10 years of this debate.

I you really want feet removed, then start talking to WCA delegates or the WCA board. Stop posting here and post on the WCA forum. Asking for feet to be removed on speedsolving.com is obviously not a very effective method to get the feet event removed, based on past data.


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## TDM (Jul 7, 2014)

cmhardw said:


> I you really want feet removed, then start talking to WCA delegates or the WCA board. Stop posting here and post on the WCA forum. Asking for feet to be removed on speedsolving.com is obviously not a very effective method to get the feet event removed, based on past data.





> I'd like to note that most community discussion about the Regulations is taking place on the speedsolving.com forum, in a subforum dedicated to the WCA Regulations:
> 
> http://www.speedsolving.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?50-WCA-Regulations
> 
> ...



From the WCA's regulations subforum. This was only posted two months ago, so "past data" isn't as relevant.


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## Tim Major (Jul 7, 2014)

cmhardw said:


> I you really want feet removed, then start talking to WCA delegates or the WCA board. Stop posting here and post on the WCA forum. Asking for feet to be removed on speedsolving.com is obviously not a very effective method to get the feet event removed, based on past data.



Not to discredit the rest of your post, but Sarah started this thread and she is involved in adding/removing events with the WCA, so perhaps an internal discussion prompted this thread?


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## GrandSlam (Jul 7, 2014)

bran said:


> Um no, everyone who can solve a Rubik's cube CAN also solve it with their feet. There is nothing new that you have to learn, in addition to your normal method, to be able to solve a cube with your feet.



But to be capable of foot-solving at significant speed? I admit that as long as you can solve a rubiks cube, you can therefore solve with your feet, but it would take a lot of practice to get even close to your time with hands. This is what adds a certain element too it. Just like solving the cube in the first place requires skill and effort, solving with feet requires even more.

Again, I may be wrong and really want to hear from an actual foot-cuber.


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## Amress (Jul 7, 2014)

The point about how feet aren't really dirty is bs. If the ground is so clean, then lick it. Clearly, you have the common sense not to do it. Also, someone brought up that this is an American dominated forum. Keep in mind that in other countries, people walk around barefoot, and it is considered to be normal. However, there are plenty of people who are still fine with scrambling for feet. As long as they wash their hands before scrambling for an event that I'm doing, I would be fine.


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## michal 1279 (Jul 7, 2014)

Well however I haven't really trained feet yet (tried it once and was about 8 minutes), I think it should stay as official WCA event.

It's something different and special and I don't think it makes "negative media view". When I showed feet videos to my friends, they said "impressive/amazing" instead of "disgusting".

About the hygienic conditions, to be honest, I was not thinking about it before. Really. I expect people to make their feet clean enough before solving (what if judges can use pincers if they don't feel to touch the cube - then it would look really unprofessional).

So I'm against removing feet from WCA events.


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## cubizh (Jul 7, 2014)

Wow, this thread again. 

It’s a good excuse for me to do/update some statistics regarding this event, that some people may be missing, so one can make a more informed judgement about the impact of this event’s removal in the community.

I start with the number of competitors that have participated in all events. 

*963 different competitors have participated* in this event.


Spoiler: Comparison with other events:











I think it is also important to see if the event is growing in popularity or not:


Spoiler: Number of competitions with the event (by year)













Spoiler: Competitions with feet compared to total number competitions (by year)




* Year	** Total competitions	** Competitions with Feet	** Percentage	* 2003	 2	 0	 0.0%	 2004	 12	 1	 8.3%	 2005	 24	 6	 25.0%	 2006	 33	 7	 21.2%	 2007	 53	 8	 15.1%	 2008	 109	 17	 15.6%	 2009	 169	 24	 14.2%	 2010	 226	 34	 15.0%	 2011	 305	 68	 22.3%	 2012	 303	 85	 28.1%	 2013	 358	 115	 32.1%	 2014	 231	 56	 24.2%	



Out of curiosity, I leave here the same progression chart for all events.


Spoiler: Number of competitions with events (by year)










I think it is also important to see if the event is attracting new competitors or if no one that is new is caring for the event:


Spoiler: New competitors in Rubik's Cube: with feet (by year)










To have a larger perspective, here is the number of unique competitors (new or not) in feet every year (that is, if a competitor participates in at least one feet event in a year, they are counted as one):


Spoiler: Unique competitors in feet by year










Finally, the competitions that hold feet and how many people participate in them.


Spoiler: Number of competitors in competitions









On average, *6.84* competitors participate in this event at competitions.


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## cmhardw (Jul 7, 2014)

Thank you for these statistics.


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## Amress (Jul 7, 2014)

I want feet to remain as an event, but the argument that 963 people have participated in feet doesn't make much of a difference. There are a lot of people who have participated in feet, but it doesn't mean that they take the event seriously. Similarly, many people participate in OH, but not all of these people take the event seriously and practice consistently.


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## kunparekh18 (Jul 7, 2014)

3x3 With Feet is something different, every other event requires the use of your hand. Why remove the event? Different is better, most of the times. I'd be really disappointed if this event would be removed, even though I don't practice it. 

At the moment of posting this, there are 69 votes in favour and 69 not in favour of removing feet xD


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## Username (Jul 7, 2014)

Coolster01 said:


> elbow - painful to funny bone



Not sure if this is just you, it doesn't hurt for me...



Spoiler



I still wouldn't do it because it takes so long





Spoiler



Also, some people's feet might hurt while doing feet, so maybe it should be removed because of reasons you provided yourself





> We all love it!



No, all of us definitely don't... I hate feetsolving myself. The only reason I've participated is for sum of ranks.




> Evidence: It is 64 who like to 68 who hate the event. In Brazil, there are definitely more than 4 feet solvers and definitely much less haters than lovers. I just know it. It's obvious. Just look at the amount of comps they have with feet.



Because the entire cubing community consists of 64 people who like feet, 68 people who don't and a few extra brazilians...


E: As far as I know, the only reason we organize feet in Finland (referring to the statistics) is that we have so few competitors that we cant have many rounds of other events. We have a few 2 day comps every year, and during those days we dont want to have much open time, but we want to compete as much as possible. Thus feet is added to fill in some empty time.


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## Coolster01 (Jul 7, 2014)

Kirjava said:


> "I just know it. It's obvious." isn't evidence. Brazil isn't the only place that contains people that haven't voted in this poll.
> 
> 
> 
> No. Stop being ego-centric and accept that liking feet and disliking feet are equally valid viewpoints. People disagreeing with you are not 'the bad guys', they just have a different viewpoint to you.



KKKKKKKK I get it, my use of language is off by a single word ;( I don't have evidence. The guy from Spain saidthat it's thought of as a tough event and definitely not as a joke. Sorry if accidentally messing up a word ruined your day. 





Username said:


> Not sure if this is just you, it doesn't hurt for me...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Personally, I think it's just not fair for underweight people with bones jutting out of their elbows. xD

I'm pretty sure nobody's feet hurt during feet except for people who were running a bunch in the last few days (me at Indiana :|). For elbows, it naturally hurts for me anytime of the year. Maybe some people have scabs on their feet, but some people have the same on elbows. Just please, agree with me. I beg of you! I seriously can't think of how feet is painful in a way that elbows isn't. Also, elbows is really hard to judge what body parts shall be used. Just don't add elbows WCA. It doesn't make sense.


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## GrandSlam (Jul 7, 2014)

While I do not actively solve with feet, I really see no reason to mess with it from the evidence I have seen. If it is removed, this thread will just pop up again, only saying that feet should be added.


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## Ranzha (Jul 7, 2014)

Erik said:


> I am sorry, but this is a non-argument. At least in Europe the unwritten rules state that you don't have to judge an event you are not competing in. Make 2 groups for feet and there is no problem. I'm sure people competing in feet don't have a problem judging feet as well. If they do then they are a hypocrit and it wouldn't be a problem forcing those people to judge anyway.



That's interesting. Here, we ask people who _aren't_ competing in particular events to judge/scramble/run to lighten the burden on the rest of the non-competing staff.


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## antoineccantin (Jul 7, 2014)

Ranzha V. Emodrach said:


> That's interesting. Here, we ask people who _aren't_ competing in particular events to judge/scramble/run to lighten the burden on the rest of the non-competing staff.


Here too 



Coolster01 said:


> KKKKKKKK I get it, my use of language is off by a single word ;( I don't have evidence. The guy from Spain saidthat it's thought of as a tough event and definitely not as a joke. Sorry if accidentally messing up a word ruined your day.
> 
> Personally, I think it's just not fair for underweight people with bones jutting out of their elbows. xD
> 
> I'm pretty sure nobody's feet hurt during feet except for people who were running a bunch in the last few days (me at Indiana :|). For elbows, it naturally hurts for me anytime of the year. Maybe some people have scabs on their feet, but some people have the same on elbows. Just please, agree with me. I beg of you! I seriously can't think of how feet is painful in a way that elbows isn't. Also, elbows is really hard to judge what body parts shall be used. Just don't add elbows WCA. It doesn't make sense.



Dear Rami, 

I'm on your side, but at this point, you really aren't helping our cause. Please refrain from presenting personal opinions as facts, getting too excited, and please stop making bad comparisons with the elbow solving.

Yours dearly,

Antoine


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## Username (Jul 7, 2014)

Ranzha V. Emodrach said:


> That's interesting. Here, we ask people who _aren't_ competing in particular events to judge/scramble/run to lighten the burden on the rest of the non-competing staff.



We do that too, I've never heard of that unwritten rule even though I've been to comps in 2 different european countries


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## Kirjava (Jul 7, 2014)

Coolster01 said:


> KKKKKKKK I get it, my use of language is off by a single word ;( I don't have evidence. The guy from Spain saidthat it's thought of as a tough event and definitely not as a joke. Sorry if accidentally messing up a word ruined your day.



Not at all. You misinterpreted my intentions; I sought to not make a semantic argument like you have turned it into, but rather one of conduct. Your behaviour and childish use of apophasis lends itself to you not being taken seriously. Sly jabs at me further devalue your credibility. If you presented your arguments in a valid way people would be more inclined to listen to you. I'm giving you criticism with which you can improve the coherency of your arguments.


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## AlexMaass (Jul 7, 2014)

I think the WCA should have opinions from people who don't really go on the speedsolving.com forums before the WCA decides on whether to remove this event or not, like people from Brazil, Asia etc. its a way too big decision to remove an event with just a section of the speedcubing community.


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## Dane man (Jul 7, 2014)

I voted to keep it because it is a funny joke. Foot solving has been and still is a side-show type of joke for the cubing community to enjoy (though, some people do get all srs biznus about it, because it is after all a competition with world records). Why not let people enjoy it?


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## sneaklyfox (Jul 7, 2014)

Coolster01 said:


> it's because it's simply fun for me.
> 
> ...
> 
> If the event was removed, I wouldn't be uploading videos of it, knowing that I wouldn't practice a non-WCA event (similar to how I was pretty darn good at magic and I stopped practicing as soon as it was removed)



Seems like conflicting statements. You said feet is just fun for you, but also that you wouldn't practice it if it weren't an official event? If it were really fun for you, you'd practice it whether it were official or not, no?


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## Coolster01 (Jul 7, 2014)

sneaklyfox said:


> Seems like conflicting statements. You said feet is just fun for you, but also that you wouldn't practice it if it weren't an official event? If it were really fun for you, you'd practice it whether it were official or not, no?



I know I said I was done, but just to clear up, I enjoyed magics but stopped after WCA removal. I dont know why but a lot of the fun is taken out when events are unofficial, it's just less competitive to get fast and makes me feel unproductive.


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## Bob (Jul 7, 2014)

sneaklyfox said:


> Seems like conflicting statements. You said feet is just fun for you, but also that you wouldn't practice it if it weren't an official event? If it were really fun for you, you'd practice it whether it were official or not, no?



I think that's really a good way to think about it:

"Would you still solve with feet if it was not an official event?"

Plenty of people practiced Skewb even before it became official (of course since becoming official I'm sure lots more practice it now). I'm curious to know if people would still solve this way if it was no longer an official WCA event.


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## BaMiao (Jul 7, 2014)

Bob said:


> "Would you still solve with feet if it was not an official event?"
> 
> Plenty of people practiced Skewb even before it became official (of course since becoming official I'm sure lots more practice it now). I'm curious to know if people would still solve this way if it was no longer an official WCA event.



I think it's also interesting that more people have competed in skewb than feet, despite skewb being official for only half a year.

I think if feet solving was never official, no one would do it seriously. It would come up from time to time on the "what event should we add next" thread, but very few would take it seriously.

On the other hand, saying "it shouldn't be an event" is very different from saying "we should remove it". I firmly agree with the first opinion, but the second is a grey area for me, given the number of hours that have been spent by many in the name of getting records and such. I don't like watching it, and I don't like it getting so much attention, but I guess I can just close my eyes whenever it comes up.


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## kcl (Jul 7, 2014)

Very few people who are fast nowadays practiced it before it was official.


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## DavidCip86 (Jul 7, 2014)

I don't like feet, but I think it should remain a WCA event. People enjoy this event, and I wouldn't like it if they took away an event that I liked.


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## CiaranBeahan (Jul 7, 2014)

I practiced feet yesterday just for fun, but before that it was my last comp, a month and a half ago. And before that it was months. If the WCA wants to add an event but only will do so by removing an event first,I think that feet should be taking out.


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## sneaklyfox (Jul 7, 2014)

Also, I don't see why the feet records that already exist should be removed if the event is removed. I mean, aren't magic records archived somewhere? So record holders can keep their records. It just means the event will no longer be held in official competition. Also, anyone can still go on talent shows and impress people with their feet solving skills.


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## Bob (Jul 7, 2014)

sneaklyfox said:


> Also, I don't see why the feet records that already exist should be removed if the event is removed. I mean, aren't magic records archived somewhere? So record holders can keep their records. It just means the event will no longer be held in official competition. Also, anyone can still go on talent shows and impress people with their feet solving skills.



Yes. I do not believe removed events have become unofficial. Those results are still listed in WCA profiles.

Examples:
Magic
Master Magic
Multi BLD (old style)


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## tx789 (Jul 7, 2014)

In my opinion the only reason against removing feet is hygiene. Which is much easier to deal with than judging for magics. You could make people use their own timer mat.


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## elrog (Jul 7, 2014)

BaMiao said:


> I think if feet solving was never official, no one would do it seriously. It would come up from time to time on the "what event should we add next" thread, but very few would take it seriously.
> 
> On the other hand, saying "it shouldn't be an event" is very different from saying "we should remove it". I firmly agree with the first opinion, but the second is a grey area for me, given the number of hours that have been spent by many in the name of getting records and such. I don't like watching it, and I don't like it getting so much attention, but I guess I can just close my eyes whenever it comes up.



^ This is how I feel about feet. I would also like to add that there are some out there who can't compete in other events, and that even though they are a small few, they should be valued as part of the community.



Sa967St said:


> Pros for removing Feet:
> 
> 
> Much of the media attention towards Feet is negative and makes competitions look unprofessional. Its removal would reduce the negative media attention and have it more focused on more widely respectable events.
> ...


The first pro and second con are contradictory.

Regarding sanitation, the second pro, I think there are to many factors to accurately tell if feet is really any more unclean than other events. I could go on about this but I won't.

The last con doesn't really mean anything.

The first con should be there because you can just archive the statistics.

The last pro should not be there because anyone who is near WR times won't gain an advantage from purposely +2ing because they have decent TPS.

Concerning the third pro, I personally feel that a system should be made where you are only obligated to scramble for a particular event if you compete in it. This does not mean others can't help out if they want to.

The fourth pro isn't really true. I think most would agree that CFOP is better for 2-handed solving than ZZ, but ZZ is better at 1-handwed solving. Therefor OH does add something and is valuable. Feet has not been explored enough to say that it adds nothing new.

PS: I voted for the second option.


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## Thaynara (Jul 7, 2014)

I believe that feet must stay as an official event. It adds so much more in all ways as previously said in many posts.
If you have any problem with hygiene, just wear gloves. Problem solved. But i think that it is unfair to delete WF from official competitions as it is a much more difficult event to get along and it needs much more determination to become fast. It is such a complex event!
Also correct me if im wrong, but there is some old school guy (can`t remember his name sorry) that used to solve 2 OH but due to some illness decided to start practicing WF, and he would still be able to be part of the community. Deleting feet is just like ignoring those who cant solve with hands etc. And excluiding someone from his\her hobby is just so rude. 
For me the hygiene discussion is more than over by now. Seriously everyone here at this exact moment is in touch with millions of bacterias just by typing on your keyboard. You may look at it and see no dust but there is millions of bacteria all over you. So if your problem is with basic hygiene you may as well stop typing. This is so irrational in pov.

Just keep feet as an official event, please.


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## XTowncuber (Jul 7, 2014)

Thaynara said:


> But i think that it is unfair to delete WF from official competitions as it is a much more difficult event to get along and it needs much more determination to become fast. It is such a complex event!


I don't practice feet, so I may be wrong, but I'm under the impression that this isn't true. Again, from what I've heard, it's relatively easy to get fast at feet. If you're half decent at 3x3, it really doesn't take much other than doing a lot of solves to get used to turning it with your feet. It's not like everyone learns a ton of new algs and techniques for it, in fact with so much of the element of fingertricks taken away, it is a much less complex event than 3x3.

To me, feet is just a mundane copy of 3x3. 

And it's gross


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## antoineccantin (Jul 7, 2014)

XTowncuber said:


> I don't practice feet, so I may be wrong, but I'm under the impression that this isn't true. Again, from what I've heard, it's relatively easy to get fast at feet. If you're half decent at 3x3, it really doesn't take much other than doing a lot of solves to get used to turning it with your feet. It's not like everyone learns a ton of new algs and techniques for it, in fact with so much of the element of fingertricks taken away, it is a much less complex event than 3x3.



Yeah.


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## BillyRain (Jul 8, 2014)

Why do we even have to remove events really... to add new ones? 

You don't have to hold all events at a competition.. so why not just keep a pool of events no matter how many, that organisers can choose from. 

It's sad that an event has to be sacrificed for a new event to be added (or so it seems) ((magic>skewb))


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## Parity Case (Jul 8, 2014)

At the risk of making myself incredibly unpopular here...

Ask 10 random people in the street to name a famous sprinter/football player/tennis player/etc., one month after the Olympics/World Cup/etc. At least one will be able to give you an answer (even if the competitor wasn't in the global event)... now try the same a week after videos from Worlds in cubing (or just WR videos) get passed around on social media... 10/10 randomly asked people will not remember the name of a record holder they saw on a Facebook post.

So all this stuff about "feet makes cubing look silly" is silly in itself. It a game, kids - a puzzle. A damn fun one, and one you can get really, really skilled at in various ways. I love it. But a serious sport? Not really. It's way too friendly and community-based to be a serious sport. And there's no drug testing. Dexies? You can bet some people come along with their prescription meds in tow (or their friend's meds).

I think the average person who is not a cuber is likely (nb. I have no data, just opinion) to be even more impressed by feet-solves than hand solves. People love weird stuff, and feet-solving might get cubing coverage in situations where media otherwise thinks "Oh, it's just another boring cubing event" when they have other stories to run on the news that evening.

That all said, I have no opinion either way on whether it *should* be kept as an event. Rather than being worried about foot-related disease/pollution, I'm more concerned about noise pollution caused by a bunch of people standing right behind me all talking at the same time in loud voices while I'm competing. I'm not that fast anyway, so not being able to hear myself think is far more off-putting than the possibility that someone is going to touch a timer with their feet.


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## szalejot (Jul 8, 2014)

For me feet do not add anything to cubing specially. One just use different tool (feet instead of hands) to solve cube, but it's still the same cube solved with the same set of algorithms.
I think that solving with feet should be allowed for people who do not have hands (accident or birth defect) but not as separate event.


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## kinch2002 (Jul 8, 2014)

szalejot said:


> For me feet do not add anything to cubing specially. One just use different tool (feet instead of hands) to solve cube, but it's still the same cube solved with the same set of algorithms.
> I think that solving with feet should be allowed for people who do not have hands (accident or birth defect) but not as separate event.



So you want to remove One-handed as well?
Different algorithms are used. Many people learn algs for feet solving.
People who do not have hands are already allowed to solve with their feet during the 3x3 event - not sure what you're getting at there.


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## XTowncuber (Jul 8, 2014)

kinch2002 said:


> So you want to remove One-handed as well?
> Different algorithms are used. Many people learn algs for feet solving.
> People who do not have hands are already allowed to solve with their feet during the 3x3 event - not sure what you're getting at there.


New stuff for feet: maybe OLLs and PLLs

New stuff for OH: Definitely a lot of PLLs probably some OLLs, if you're fast then COLL and then maybe some 2GLL and heck why not throw in some WV or ZBLL, oh and also there's this special method for it called ZZ. Also OH turning/fingertricks are more distinct between solvers than feet turning/toetricks.

Thus I think that OH is NOT a mundane copy of 3x3.


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## kinch2002 (Jul 8, 2014)

XTowncuber said:


> New stuff for feet: maybe OLLs and PLLs
> 
> New stuff for OH: Definitely a lot of PLLs probably some OLLs, if you're fast then COLL and then maybe some 2GLL and heck why not throw in some WV or ZBLL, oh and also there's this special method for it called ZZ. Also OH turning/fingertricks are more distinct between solvers than feet turning/toetricks.
> 
> Thus I think that OH is NOT a mundane copy of 3x3.


There is more blockbuilding during Cross/F2L for feet, and all the LL stuff that you mention for OH applies to feet as well. Perhaps there aren't as many people who learn a load of stuff like that specifically for feet, but that's because there are less people who care about feet, not because it wouldn't be helpful. Come on...2GLL for feet would be really useful 

There are also different turning styles for feet, but most people don't study feet enough for the styles to be well known. Going back to the basic execution of moves we find 2 very different turning styles. U turns only, and RLFD turns only. You could easily argue that this is more distinct than any 2 popular OH turning styles.

Even if there was only one turning style for feet, it would be so much more different from two-handed than any one-handed style is.

I agree that OH is not a mundane copy of 3x3, but I would argue that feet is not either, because if OH is sufficiently different from two-handed then feet must surely be too!


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## Przemek Kaleta (Jul 8, 2014)

XTowncuber said:


> New stuff for feet: maybe OLLs and PLLs
> 
> New stuff for OH: Definitely a lot of PLLs probably some OLLs, if you're fast then COLL and then maybe some 2GLL and heck why not throw in some WV or ZBLL, oh and also there's this special method for it called ZZ. Also OH turning/fingertricks are more distinct between solvers than feet turning/toetricks.
> 
> Thus I think that OH is NOT a mundane copy of 3x3.



I learn VLS cases just for feet solving and I use COLLs and ZBLLs as well (more time to recognise)

And not "maybe OLLs and PLLs for feet" but "Definitely a lot of PLLs and OLLs"

In my opinion all official evens should stay, because a lot of people have practised them for a long time and no change is necessary.


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## XTowncuber (Jul 8, 2014)

fair enough then.


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## Meneghetti (Jul 8, 2014)

Sa967St said:


> The goal of this thread is to determine *how much support there is* for removing 3x3x3 With Feet



I would just like to point out that this event is very popular in countries like Brazil and Indonesia, and I believe that the cubers from these countries don't really read this forum and they are not voting on this poll.

Here we had a similar discussion a while ago, and our poll results were:

Remove feet: 2 votes (5.41%)
Keep feet: 34 votes (91.89%)
Whatever: 1 vote (2.70%)


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## Coolster01 (Jul 8, 2014)

Meneghetti said:


> I would just like to point out that this event is very popular in countries like Brazil and Indonesia, and I believe that the cubers from these countries don't really read this forum and they are not voting on this poll.
> 
> Here we had a similar discussion a while ago, and our poll results were:
> 
> ...



There's my proof Kirjava


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## Kirjava (Jul 8, 2014)

Coolster01 said:


> There's my proof Kirjava



Your original post states that the *entire community* would vote for keeping feet over not.

Statistics from places where feet is popular are not representative of this and by your own statements contain large bias.

Also, if you're going to claim to be 'done here' it's best to stop posting.


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## Dane man (Jul 8, 2014)

Meneghetti said:


> I would just like to point out that this event is very popular in countries like Brazil and Indonesia, and I believe that the cubers from these countries don't really read this forum and they are not voting on this poll.
> 
> Here we had a similar discussion a while ago, and our poll results were:
> 
> ...



Here the results are currently:

Remove feet: 96 votes
Keep feet: 96 votes
whatever: 44 votes

Interesting I think.


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## Ranzha (Jul 8, 2014)

Dane man said:


> Here the results are currently:
> 
> Remove feet: 96 votes
> Keep feet: 96 votes
> ...



Also, fewer than 20% of responders actively participate in the event.

Food for thought.


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## antoineccantin (Jul 8, 2014)

Ranzha V. Emodrach said:


> Also, fewer than 20% of responders actively participate in the event.
> 
> Food for thought.



I'm sure that fewer than 20% of all cubers "actively participate" in Square-1, Clock, 4BLD, 5BLD, ect.


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## Ranzha (Jul 8, 2014)

antoineccantin said:


> I'm sure that fewer than 20% of all cubers "actively participate" in Square-1, Clock, 4BLD, 5BLD, ect.



x-post from Facebook:







Middle column represents number of times event has been hosted at a competition to date in 2014.
Right column represents percent of the time the event was hosted out of all 239 competitions to date in 2014.

I voted that I wouldn't mind either way and I stick by that conviction.
Since I cba to check, at 2014 competitions with feet, what is the mean proportion of competitors who competed in feet?


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## antoineccantin (Jul 8, 2014)

Ranzha V. Emodrach said:


> x-post from Facebook:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I'm not talking about the number of competitions who hold that event. I'm talking about the number of cubers who "actively participate" in the event. Those two are not related. Example: There are two cubers in my town who really like feet solving. However, there has been a total of 0 competitions with feet held this year in the whole *country.* That does not mean that all Canadians hate feet and want it removed!

You said: "Also, fewer than 20% of responders actively participate in the event." which is about the percentage of cubers who "actively participate" in the event, not the number of competitions.

If the percentage of people who've competed in it is any indication (which it isn't really, as there are few competitions with feet, so fewer feet enthusiasts can get official times), then about 3% of cubers "actively participate in feet", compared to 7% for Square-1, 5.5% for Clock, etc.


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## Ranzha (Jul 8, 2014)

antoineccantin said:


> I'm not talking about the number of competitions who hold that event. I'm talking about the number of cubers who "actively participate" in the event. Those two are not related. Example: There are two cubers in my city who really like feet solving. However, there has been a total of 0 competitions with feet held this year in the whole *country.* That does not mean that all Canadians hate feet and want it removed!
> 
> You said: "Also, fewer than 20% of responders actively participate in the event." which is about the percentage of cubers who "actively participate" in the event, not the number of competitions.
> 
> If the percentage of people who've competed in it is any indication (which it isn't really, as there are few competitions with feet, so fewer feet enthusiasts can get official times), than about 3% of cubers "actively participate in feet", compared to 7% for Square-1, 5.5% for Clock, etc.



I'm not trying to argue with you.
I'm posting numbers.


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## Goosly (Jul 8, 2014)

Ranzha V. Emodrach said:


> Middle column represents number of times event has been hosted at a competition to date in 2014.
> Right column represents percent of the time the event was hosted out of all 239 competitions to date in 2014.





Ranzha V. Emodrach said:


> I'm posting numbers.



I wonder why you post those numbers. Why did you calculate/post them? To show 5BLD is hosted less than Feet?


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## slinky773 (Jul 8, 2014)

Goosly said:


> I wonder why you post those numbers. Why did you calculate/post them? To show 5BLD is hosted less than Feet?



Well, it's just numbers, so he's not really trying to show anything, he's just supplying them for use in the discussion. As he said, he's neutral.


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## cubernya (Jul 8, 2014)

Suggestion: For a period of 6/12 months, have a poll at every competition worldwide (it could just be asked when checking in). Tally up the count and go from there. If all the delegates are informed, I don't see why this wouldn't work.


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## antoineccantin (Jul 8, 2014)

theZcuber said:


> Suggestion: For a period of 6/12 months, have a poll at every competition worldwide (it could just be asked when checking in). Tally up the count and go from there. If all the delegates are informed, I don't see why this wouldn't work.



And if over 50% of people don't like feet, we remove the event? That doesn't seem fair.


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## cubernya (Jul 8, 2014)

antoineccantin said:


> And if over 50% of people don't like feet, we remove the event? That doesn't seem fair.



I'm not saying a specific percentage. I'm just saying that that data would be much more beneficial to the decision than a small poll with a couple hundred people on these forums or the Brazilian forums.


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## thatboyahcubah (Jul 8, 2014)

BaMiao said:


> I don't like watching it, and I don't like it getting so much attention, but I guess I can just close my eyes whenever it comes up.



I wish everyone who had a problem with feetsolving could do exactly as you said.


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## Ranzha (Jul 8, 2014)

Goosly said:


> I wonder why you post those numbers. Why did you calculate/post them? To show 5BLD is hosted less than Feet?



At first, I was astonished at how frequently feet was held considering it's almost never considered to be held in my competition community.
Then I wondered how the other events stacked up and was more astonished how relatively lowly feet stood.

I've tried feet a few times and have no problem with it. It just doesn't appear to have traction, and for little good reason. For some areas, feet grosses people out. For me, feet isn't usually considered for two reasons, the more relevant one to this discussion being that feet doesn't seem popular among competitors in my area, so organising it cost time which could be used for events people enjoy having. The organisation team has even taken polls to see what events non-organising people would like to see, and feet (among other events) is never listed.


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## cubizh (Jul 9, 2014)

Spoiler: Competitions with > 20% feet solvers




* Competition	** feet solvers	** total competitors	** Percentage	* BeijingFootsteps2011	 9	 14	 64%	 KediriOpen2013	 13	 23	 57%	 BandungOpen2012	 9	 20	 45%	 TrondheimSpring2012	 8	 18	 44%	 IndonesianChampionship2012	 17	 41	 41%	 HokurikuEveOpen2012	 7	 17	 41%	 TrondheimFall2011	 7	 18	 39%	 JogjaAltamiraSportOpen2013	 10	 26	 38%	 BulacanOpen2010	 6	 16	 38%	 RubikkuChamp2013	 7	 19	 37%	 EstonianOpen2010	 5	 14	 36%	 UniversityofNottingham2014	 22	 62	 35%	 BallerupOpen2013	 10	 29	 34%	 MerapiOpen2011	 15	 44	 34%	 Celebes2012	 8	 24	 33%	 BulacanOpen2009	 8	 25	 32%	 LyonWinterOpen2012	 8	 25	 32%	 JakartaSpeedcubing2013	 10	 32	 31%	 JakartaOpen2012	 13	 42	 31%	 TyphoonOpen2012	 8	 26	 31%	 DanishOpen2014	 11	 36	 31%	 FinnishOpen2009	 7	 23	 30%	 BasauriOpen2011	 7	 23	 30%	 JawaTimur2013	 9	 30	 30%	 ShanghaiSpring2011	 5	 17	 29%	 CuthbertsOpen2013	 15	 51	 29%	 MalangCubeDay2012	 7	 24	 29%	 CubeCampKanazawa2010	 11	 38	 29%	 CzechOpen2010	 14	 49	 29%	 JakartaOpen2011	 14	 49	 29%	 GernikaOpen2013	 6	 21	 29%	 BasauriOpen2013	 7	 25	 28%	 BerlinWinter2013	 7	 25	 28%	 FinnishOpen2008	 5	 18	 28%	 CubingKoreaDecember2011	 5	 18	 28%	 SingaporeSpecial2013	 5	 18	 28%	 TachikawaFest2013	 13	 47	 28%	 NottinghamOpen2013	 11	 40	 28%	 BallerupOpen2012	 6	 22	 27%	 VargardaOpen2011	 13	 48	 27%	 Leicester2013	 12	 45	 27%	 SMU2013	 9	 34	 26%	 VargardaOpen2012	 14	 53	 26%	 LagartoOpen2012	 6	 23	 26%	 CherryBlossom2013	 6	 23	 26%	 SaoLuisOpen2014	 6	 23	 26%	 CzechOpen2012	 13	 50	 26%	 KediriFunCube2012	 9	 35	 26%	 DanishOpen2013	 9	 35	 26%	 ErfurtOpen2014	 9	 35	 26%	 KirkkonummiOpen2011	 3	 12	 25%	 SkarupLastChance2011	 3	 12	 25%	 DanishSpecial2011	 4	 16	 25%	 EstonianOpen2011	 6	 24	 25%	 PasuruanOpen2012	 5	 20	 25%	 MovesN00bs2012	 5	 20	 25%	 Generalforsamlingen2013	 5	 20	 25%	 DanishSpecial2013	 8	 32	 25%	 AspeOpen2013	 4	 16	 25%	 SkanderborgOpen2014	 7	 28	 25%	 JawaTimurOpen2014	 4	 16	 25%	 Borneo2012	 12	 49	 24%	 LyonOpen2011	 10	 41	 24%	 DanishOpen2012	 10	 41	 24%	 NeptuneOpen2011	 8	 33	 24%	 KendariOpen2011	 9	 38	 24%	 DeWilgOpen2014	 9	 38	 24%	 CzechOpen2009	 13	 55	 24%	 SuzhouOpen2011	 10	 43	 23%	 Svekub2006	 3	 13	 23%	 DinsOpen2012	 3	 13	 23%	 HelsinkiOpen2011	 8	 35	 23%	 MIROpen2013	 7	 31	 23%	 LegnanoOpen2013	 7	 31	 23%	 NottinghamSummer2014	 11	 49	 22%	 SwedishCubedays2011	 8	 36	 22%	 DixonWinter2013	 9	 41	 22%	 OsloFall2012	 7	 32	 22%	 CzechOpen2013	 8	 37	 22%	 SuzhouOpen2012	 9	 42	 21%	 DanishOpen2011	 11	 52	 21%	 CzechOpen2011	 11	 52	 21%	 JogjaCubesama2012	 8	 38	 21%	 LithuanianOpen2013	 4	 19	 21%	 LatvianOpen2013	 4	 19	 21%	 SwedishChampionship2011	 16	 77	 21%	 TianjinOpen2012	 7	 34	 21%	 HungarianOpen2010	 18	 89	 20%	 NorwegianOpen2008	 4	 20	 20%	 EstonianOpen2009	 3	 15	 20%	 CachanOpen2011	 8	 40	 20%	 NationalCapitalRegion2012	 8	 40	 20%	 CMUSpring2013	 6	 30	 20%	 GijonOpen2014	 2	 10	 20%	 MariborOpen2014	 4	 20	 20%	 KawasakiOpen2012	 11	 56	 20%	 RapidashOpen2012	 9	 46	 20%	 BerkeleyFall2012	 8	 41	 20%	






Spoiler: Competitions with < 10% feet solvers




* Competition	** feet solvers	** total competitors	** Percentage	*  GuangdongOpen2009	 2	 162	 1%	  TaiwanSummer2013	 2	 112	 2%	  Korea2006	 1	 51	 2%	  BeijingMetropolisOpen2009	 3	 149	 2%	  CaltechSpring2005	 1	 40	 3%	  BeijingFallOpen2008	 2	 79	 3%	  GuangdongOpen2013	 5	 190	 3%	  DualGames2013	 1	 33	 3%	  NewZealandChamps2009	 1	 32	 3%	  BrazilOpen2007	 1	 30	 3%	  TaiwanSummer2012	 4	 120	 3%	  KansaiOpen2014	 2	 59	 3%	  SLSJastrzebie2013	 5	 147	 3%	  GermanOpen2005	 1	 28	 4%	  UnivercidadeOpen2009	 1	 28	 4%	  Euro2004	 2	 53	 4%	  BeijingSpringOpen2009	 4	 103	 4%	  BeijingWinterOpen2013	 3	 74	 4%	  ShijiazhuangOpen2009	 2	 48	 4%	  SESCSantos2011	 5	 120	 4%	  SESCSantos2010	 3	 70	 4%	  PolishNationals2013	 8	 182	 4%	  KCRC2007	 3	 68	 4%	  Busan2008	 2	 45	 4%	  UberlandiaOpen2011	 1	 22	 5%	  PrasadzICCJuniors2013	 6	 132	 5%	  MPEIOpen2013	 9	 198	 5%	  RubiQuest2014	 2	 44	 5%	  CubeFactory2013	 4	 87	 5%	  GuangzhouSmallCubes2014	 4	 87	 5%	  HungarianOpen2008	 6	 129	 5%	  SaoPauloOpen2009	 2	 43	 5%	  BeijingWinter2012	 4	 85	 5%	  NiagaraOpenSummer2008	 2	 42	 5%	  AntelopeValleyFall2013	 3	 63	 5%	  JapanOpen2013	 4	 83	 5%	  NorwegianOpen2010	 3	 62	 5%	  IranOpen2012	 6	 123	 5%	  GuangdongOpen2010	 5	 102	 5%	  DutchOpen2006	 2	 40	 5%	  Japan2006	 4	 79	 5%	  UkrainianOpen2013	 5	 96	 5%	  NewZealandNationals2013	 1	 19	 5%	  JapanOpen2010	 5	 94	 5%	  WC2005	 8	 149	 5%	  RybnikOpen2013	 5	 93	 5%	  MPEIOpen2012	 9	 166	 5%	  PolishNationals2014	 12	 218	 6%	  GermanNationals2012	 5	 90	 6%	  SLSGliwice2014	 10	 180	 6%	  SLSZaglebie2013	 6	 107	 6%	  GoianiaOpen2011	 4	 71	 6%	  AsianChampionship2012	 8	 141	 6%	  SwedishCubeDay2008	 2	 35	 6%	  GLSAutumnReda2013	 4	 69	 6%	  TokyoOpen2008	 5	 86	 6%	  Seoul2008	 2	 34	 6%	  WuhanOpen2012	 4	 68	 6%	  RadomOpen2013	 5	 84	 6%	  SLSRybnik2014	 8	 132	 6%	  WC2007	 13	 214	 6%	  Bangkok2012	 3	 49	 6%	  IranOpen2013	 3	 49	 6%	  WarsawOpen2014	 8	 130	 6%	  SLSChorzow2014	 10	 162	 6%	  HungarianOpen2013	 6	 97	 6%	  BelgianOpen2007	 3	 48	 6%	  ColombiaNationals2012	 3	 48	 6%	  UkraineOpen2012	 8	 127	 6%	  BrasiliaOpen2014	 5	 79	 6%	  WC2009	 21	 327	 6%	  ShristiOpen2009	 2	 31	 6%	  TaiwanWinter2012	 4	 62	 6%	  TaylorOpen2013	 2	 31	 6%	  NULAUKharkivWinter2013	 8	 124	 6%	  KharkivOpen2014	 7	 108	 6%	  WC2011	 19	 292	 7%	  UNESPOpen2009	 3	 46	 7%	  HangzhouOpen2011	 6	 92	 7%	  KharkivWinter2012	 6	 92	 7%	  Sobrevivientes2013	 3	 46	 7%	  USNationals2010	 15	 227	 7%	  PoznanOpen2010	 4	 60	 7%	  SSCCOpen2011	 3	 45	 7%	  JapanOpen2009	 6	 89	 7%	  CaltechFall2010	 4	 59	 7%	  HefeiSpring2012	 4	 59	 7%	  ShanghaiSummer2012	 10	 146	 7%	  NovoHamburgoOpen2011	 2	 29	 7%	  SESCPompeia2013	 6	 87	 7%	  MolinaOpen2013	 2	 29	 7%	  MarikinaCity2014	 4	 58	 7%	  Korea2010	 5	 72	 7%	  OhioOpen2009	 4	 57	 7%	  DanishOpen2010	 5	 71	 7%	  IndianaWinter2010	 5	 70	 7%	  ItalianChampionship2013	 4	 56	 7%	  PhilippineOpen2013	 3	 42	 7%	  CastellonOpen2014	 2	 28	 7%	[TR][TD]
[TR][TD]	TaiwanWinterOpen2011	 5	 69	 7%	[TR][TD]
[TR][TD]	AntelopeValleySpring2013	 2	 27	 7%	[TR][TD]
[TR][TD]	Euro2006	 7	 94	 7%	[TR][TD]
[TR][TD]	ColegioCidade2010	 3	 40	 8%	[TR][TD]
[TR][TD]	HungarianOpen2012	 8	 106	 8%	[TR][TD]
[TR][TD]	HumanRightsDay2011	 5	 66	 8%	[TR][TD]
[TR][TD]	ZhejiangUniversity2013	 6	 79	 8%	[TR][TD]
[TR][TD]	SingaporeOpen2014	 7	 91	 8%	[TR][TD]
[TR][TD]	ZaragozaOpen2014	 2	 26	 8%	[TR][TD]
[TR][TD]	Guangzhou2013	 5	 64	 8%	[TR][TD]
[TR][TD]	KCAKoreaOpen2008	 9	 115	 8%	[TR][TD]
[TR][TD]	GrudziadzOpen2011	 3	 38	 8%	[TR][TD]
[TR][TD]	KansaiOpen2013	 5	 63	 8%	[TR][TD]
[TR][TD]	Draco2013	 4	 50	 8%	[TR][TD]
[TR][TD]	Brasileiro2013	 9	 112	 8%	[TR][TD]
[TR][TD]	PolishOpen2009	 4	 49	 8%	[TR][TD]
[TR][TD]	ColombiaTercer2013	 6	 73	 8%	[TR][TD]
[TR][TD]	OleksandriiaOpen2013	 6	 73	 8%	[TR][TD]
[TR][TD]	HefeiSpring2014	 7	 85	 8%	[TR][TD]
[TR][TD]	HelsinkiOpen2007	 1	 12	 8%	[TR][TD]
[TR][TD]	SwedishCubeDay2009	 5	 60	 8%	[TR][TD]
[TR][TD]	FinnishOpen2010	 2	 24	 8%	[TR][TD]
[TR][TD]	Roraima2012	 1	 12	 8%	[TR][TD]
[TR][TD]	NovoHamburgoII2012	 3	 36	 8%	[TR][TD]
[TR][TD]	ManufakturaOpen2013	 3	 36	 8%	[TR][TD]
[TR][TD]	TaiwanSummer2010	 8	 95	 8%	[TR][TD]
[TR][TD]	Euro2012	 24	 285	 8%	[TR][TD]
[TR][TD]	IndianCubeChallenge2013	 15	 178	 8%	[TR][TD]
[TR][TD]	WarsawaOpen2012	 6	 71	 8%	[TR][TD]
[TR][TD]	SCMU2014	 11	 130	 8%	[TR][TD]
[TR][TD] GermanOpen2006	 4	 47	 9%	[TR][TD]
[TR][TD]	ItalianChampionship2012	 4	 47	 9%	[TR][TD]
[TR][TD]	FrenchChampionship2014	 5	 58	 9%	[TR][TD]
[TR][TD]	ABCOpen2010	 4	 46	 9%	[TR][TD]
[TR][TD]	ChampagneOpen2013	 5	 57	 9%	[TR][TD]
[TR][TD]	Korea2009	 3	 34	 9%	[TR][TD]
[TR][TD]	CastellonOpen2011	 3	 34	 9%	[TR][TD]
[TR][TD]	USNationals2011	 18	 204	 9%	[TR][TD]
[TR][TD]	Guangdong2012	 7	 79	 9%	[TR][TD]
[TR][TD]	CubeCampKanazawa2011	 4	 45	 9%	[TR][TD]
[TR][TD]	Cheonan2008	 4	 44	 9%	[TR][TD]
[TR][TD]	ItalianChampionship2011	 4	 44	 9%	[TR][TD]
[TR][TD]	OficinaOpen2012	 9	 99	 9%	[TR][TD]
[TR][TD]	SpanishChampionships2013	 10	 109	 9%	[TR][TD]
[TR][TD]	PolishOpen2007	 7	 76	 9%	[TR][TD]
[TR][TD]	GoianiaOpen2013	 5	 54	 9%	[TR][TD]
[TR][TD]	AsianChampionship2010	 12	 129	 9%	[TR][TD]
[TR][TD]	KaohsiungOpen2013	 4	 43	 9%	[TR][TD]
[TR][TD]	MoratallaOpenRubik2014	 3	 32	 9%	[TR][TD]
[TR][TD]	DidasBrest2014	 5	 53	 9%	[TR][TD]
[TR][TD]	TulaOpen2014	 7	 74	 9%	[TR][TD]
[TR][TD]	JapanOpen2012	 9	 95	 9%	[TR][TD]
[TR][TD]	Indiana2012	 9	 95	 9%	[TR][TD]

[TR][TD]





Ranzha V. Emodrach said:


> Since I cba to check, at 2014 competitions with feet, what is the mean proportion of competitors who competed in feet?





Spoiler: Feet Solvers vs. Non Feet Solvers in competitions where the event took place



Each bar represents a competition.






*Overall, at competitions, on average, 14% of competitors participate in the event.*


Spoiler: Divided By Year



How to read this table: In competitions that held the event 'Rubik's Cube: with feet', in the year 2010, of all the competitors that participated in the competition, on average, 13.0% participated in this event.

* Year	** Percentage	* 2004	 4.0%	 2005	 9.6%	 2006	 9.1%	 2007	 7.5%	 2008	 10.6%	 2009	 10.5%	 2010	 13.0%	 2011	 16.7%	 2012	 16.2%	 2013	 14.5%	 2014	 13.1%	







I also posted other (hopefully) meaningful stats earlier in the thread.


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## BboyArchon (Jul 9, 2014)

szalejot said:


> For me feet do not add anything to cubing specially. One just use different tool (feet instead of hands) to solve cube, but it's still the same cube solved with the same set of algorithms.
> I think that solving with feet should be allowed for people who do not have hands (accident or birth defect) but not as separate event.



Should we also remove 3x3 OH in your opinon? Same argument.

I do practise 'Feet' and I don't see why it should be removed. It's fun for me and it needs other kind of ability or dexterity


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## Amress (Jul 9, 2014)

BboyArchon said:


> Should we also remove 3x3 OH in your opinon? Same argument.



It isn't the same argument. OH requires many, many different algs than 3x3.


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## Richy (Jul 9, 2014)

And feet also requires different algs. It's even more important to learn different and more algorithms for feet than for OH in my opinion...


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## Amress (Jul 9, 2014)

For OH, most serious cubers learn different algs for PLL, COLL, and most CFOP solvers learn different OLLs too. I'm not going to pretend to be a feet expert, but I don't think feet solvers learn that many extra algs.


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## EMI (Jul 9, 2014)

Let's make a new poll: "How many extra algs have you learned for OH and Feet?"
That should clarify things.


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## Richy (Jul 9, 2014)

Well some people learn WV, SV and other last slot techniques, and also different OLLs,PLLs and COLLs for feet. I think that there is a lot of people that make a lot of effort for improving in the category and also some people that they would make more effort if feet was not attacked of being removed like that so many times (including me). Some people make a lot of effort and removing this category would not be fair because of that. I would like to hear from top feet solvers that they learned some algorithms and subsets to improve with feet to make some people to be quiet and like this they would know that for improving with feet you should also learn many algorithms. (Sorry if my English is not perfect).
Edit: But for that poll should only answer about with feet the people who practises with feet


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## Swordsman Kirby (Jul 11, 2014)

Choice of algorithms is really important for feetcubing. Many people seem to be under the impression that solving a 3x3 with feet is just like 2H, except on the ground and slower. The fact that the cube is on the ground means, assuming D is the face touching the ground, that RFLB turns are the fastest to execute. This is reminiscent of OH solvers preferring to do RU or RUL/RUD algorithms, but since turning is slower, feetsolvers might opt for a shorter algorithm that involves more faces. 

For example, how I do H perms in two-handed, one-handed, and feet solving are totally different. I use 

M2' U M2' U2 M2' U M2', 
R2 U2 R U2 R2 U2 R2 U2 R U2 R2, and 
L R B2 L' R' z L' R' B2 L R,

respectively.


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## qqwref (Jul 11, 2014)

But H perm is a special case, isn't it? There are a lot of pretty good algs for H with different move sets. In your list, I have seen people use the third one for OH (albeit executed differently) and I myself use it for sim.

As you mentioned, the difference between RFLB and RULD is just a rotation. So I would be surprised to hear that for feetsolvers most of OLL/PLL had to be replaced with new algs, or that F2L was done totally differently than in OH. The biggest difference is that turns have to be done even more slowly than in OH, which certainly does affect what turns a good solver would want to do, but it doesn't seem like a big enough change to have people develop entirely new ideas and techniques, like we have seen for OH.


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## Renslay (Jul 11, 2014)

Swordsman Kirby said:


> For example, how I do H perms in two-handed, one-handed, and feet solving are totally different. I use
> 
> M2' U M2' U2 M2' U M2',
> R2 U2 R U2 R2 U2 R2 U2 R U2 R2, and
> ...



L R B2 L' R' y L' R' B2 L R does not work.


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## szalejot (Jul 11, 2014)

kinch2002 said:


> So you want to remove One-handed as well?



Actually - yes.
I do not find OH attractive in any way. For me it's just some strange deviation which (surprisingly) became popular.


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## kinch2002 (Jul 11, 2014)

Renslay said:


> L R B2 L' R' y L' R' B2 L R does not work.


He's mixed up notation a bit due to the confusion of solving feet with the cube 'on it's side'. It should be a z rotation really, if the last layer is supposed to be at the back


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## Renslay (Jul 11, 2014)

kinch2002 said:


> He's mixed up notation a bit due to the confusion of solving feet with the cube 'on it's side'. It should be a z rotation really, if the last layer is supposed to be at the back



Ah, okay. Now it works, thank you.


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## Kirjava (Jul 11, 2014)

At the moment, I don't feel too strongly about feet like I used to. Some people love it and enjoy competing in it and want to do so. That's great! They want to keep doing so and I assume they probably will. More power to them.

However, it's not an event I like at all. I think it reflects badly on the WCA. I don't think it's the direction we should be heading. I think we could do better, and don't want us to set a poor precedent that makes us feel like we lost out in hindsight.

I think this time we don't have any strictly objective reasons to remove events, and people think that this is reason enough to not remove any at all.

I'm not sure I agree.


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## Coolster01 (Jul 11, 2014)

To be 100% honest, I wouldn't care at all if feet was replaced with another event. As long as it isn't a BLD or big cube event, I'd probably get into it xD


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## antoineccantin (Jul 11, 2014)

Coolster01 said:


> To be 100% honest, I wouldn't care at all if feet was replaced with another event. As long as it isn't a BLD or big cube event, I'd probably get into it xD



Man, you're very contradictory. You've been arguing strongly for ages in this thread about how feet should stay because of all it's amazing benefits, and now you say you don't care if it gets removed?


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## Tempus (Jul 11, 2014)

I feel like OH and Feet solving makes speedcubing a very inclusive sport. It means that those who don't have full use of both hands are still able to compete, and removing them capriciously would be analogous to discontinuing the special Olympics. It seems needlessly discriminatory.

If anything, we should be _increasing_ inclusivity, such as by adding an event for the blind. I'm thinking blindfold solving with a Braille cube, mirror blocks, or other cube where the faces are differentiable by feel alone, and where you have to put the blindfold on _before_ inspection. (I've tried solving my mirror blocks cube in total darkness, and it's entirely doable.)


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## Coolster01 (Jul 11, 2014)

antoineccantin said:


> Man, you're very contradictory. You've been arguing strongly for ages in this thread about how feet should stay because of all it's amazing benefits, and now you say you don't care if it gets removed?



I just thought about how I'd like another event, so I guess I didn't think of replacing before...? Just taking it out is something I don't agree with at all, personally. I just kinda want something new.


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## Dene (Jul 12, 2014)

Tempus said:


> I feel like OH and Feet solving makes speedcubing a very inclusive sport. It means that those who don't have full use of both hands are still able to compete, and removing them capriciously would be analogous to discontinuing the special Olympics. It seems needlessly discriminatory.



If feet were removed as a separate event people could still compete in 3x3 by using their feet.



Tempus said:


> If anything, we should be _increasing_ inclusivity, such as by adding an event for the blind. I'm thinking blindfold solving with a Braille cube, mirror blocks, or other cube where the faces are differentiable by feel alone, and where you have to put the blindfold on _before_ inspection. (I've tried solving my mirror blocks cube in total darkness, and it's entirely doable.)



As above, using special cubes is specifically allowed in the regulations.

3d1) Exception: Competitors with a medically documented visual disability may use textured puzzles with different textures on different faces. Textures/patterns must be uniform per face. Each face should have a distinct colour, to aid in scrambling and judging.


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## Tempus (Jul 12, 2014)

Dene said:


> If feet were removed as a separate event people could still compete in 3x3 by using their feet.


This makes no sense. To continue the analogy, this comment is tantamount to saying that it's okay to discontinue the special Olympics because the physically disabled would still be able to compete against ordinary Olympians. Does that really seem like a reasonable position to you? Can you not see the inherent bias?


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## DeeDubb (Jul 12, 2014)

Tempus said:


> This makes no sense. To continue the analogy, this comment is tantamount to saying that it's okay to discontinue the special Olympics because the physically disabled would still be able to compete against ordinary Olympians. Does that really seem like a reasonable position to you? Can you not see the inherent bias?



Your analogy makes no sense, because in cubing everyone can do feet, not just people with handicaps preventing them from using their hands. This would mean, in your analogy that the wheelchair race in the Special Olympics could be done by anyone, disabled or not, as long as they use a wheelchair. Do you think that seems reasonable?


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## Bob (Jul 12, 2014)

Tempus said:


> This makes no sense. To continue the analogy, this comment is tantamount to saying that it's okay to discontinue the special Olympics because the physically disabled would still be able to compete against ordinary Olympians. Does that really seem like a reasonable position to you? Can you not see the inherent bias?


It does make sense. Athletes with disabilities *do *sometimes compete in the Olympics. Are you implying the 3x3 with feet category is meant for those with disabilities? I think Dene's analogy is more aligned than yours is.

Edit: ninja'd!


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## ottozing (Jul 12, 2014)

Coolster01 said:


> I just thought about how I'd like another event, so I guess I didn't think of replacing before...? Just taking it out is something I don't agree with at all, personally. I just kinda want something new.



Events don't get "replaced". Events simply get removed or added. When events are added or removed, its never with the intention of making room for another event or with the intention of removing another event because there's now too many events or something. 

You should seriously consider refraining from posting too much more in this thread since you've basically just been going off emotion and been strongly biased from the fact that you love feet solving. Other people have been making strong points for keeping feet solving, so you really shouldn't have to feel the need to chime in, because from what I can tell feet isn't going to be removed


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## Dene (Jul 12, 2014)

Tempus said:


> This makes no sense. To continue the analogy, this comment is tantamount to saying that it's okay to discontinue the special Olympics because the physically disabled would still be able to compete against ordinary Olympians. Does that really seem like a reasonable position to you? Can you not see the inherent bias?



Ok but we have the Olympics, and the Paralympics (as well as the Special Olympics). To make things comparable, we would need to have the WCA, the Para-WCA, and the Special WCA. 

This is obviously a stupid idea, because there wouldn't be nearly enough people to make up the numbers in the handicapped WCAs. But the same reason makes it stupid for us to have separate events just for handicapped people, when hardly anyone would participate. In fact, at any given competition there would probably only be one, if any, handicapped person. Why have a completely different category just for them?

This is why it's so great that we can be malleable with the events we already have.

EDIT: Lol he got triple quoted. Damn Jay ruining the trend.


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## uberCuber (Jul 12, 2014)

Tempus said:


> This makes no sense. To continue the analogy, this comment is tantamount to saying that it's okay to discontinue the special Olympics because the physically disabled would still be able to compete against ordinary Olympians. Does that really seem like a reasonable position to you? Can you not see the inherent bias?



Any random person can walk into a WCA competition and do a 5-minute Rubik's cube solve. But you don't really see random people walking into the Olympics and running the 1500m in 9 minutes, do you?


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## Tempus (Jul 12, 2014)

DeeDubb said:


> Your analogy makes no sense, because in cubing everyone can do feet, not just people with handicaps preventing them from using their hands. This would mean, in your analogy that the wheelchair race in the Special Olympics could be done by anyone, disabled or not, as long as they use a wheelchair. Do you think that seems reasonable?


Yes, I think it's _entirely_ reasonable, and here is why: I see no reason to think that an able-bodied Olympian would have an advantage over an Olympian without legs _in an event where the legs cannot be used_, so if they were engaged in a wheelchair race, it would be a more-or-less fair contest. Both events can be inclusive. The key is to have some events where strong legs provide no advantage, or in the case of the speedcubing world, some events where functional hands or functional eyes provide no advantage. This is a better solution than segregating people into groups and saying "You aren't allowed to compete at this, so go away."



Bob said:


> It does make sense. Athletes with disabilities *do *sometimes compete in the Olympics. Are you implying the 3x3 with feet category is meant for those with disabilities? I think Dene's analogy is more aligned than yours is.


Given that my point was that inclusivity is good and exclusivity is bad, how could you construe that as an intent to exclude the able-bodied from foot-solving?



Dene said:


> This is obviously a stupid idea, because there wouldn't be nearly enough people to make up the numbers in the handicapped WCAs. But the same reason makes it stupid for us to have separate events just for handicapped people, when hardly anyone would participate. In fact, at any given competition there would probably only be one, if any, handicapped person. Why have a completely different category just for them?


There shouldn't be different categories. Everyone should be in one category: Humans. The events should differ, however, so that they don't all just favor fast fingers. Let everyone try their hand (or foot) at every event if they are able.



uberCuber said:


> Any random person can walk into a WCA competition and do a 5-minute Rubik's cube solve. But you don't really see random people walking into the Olympics and running the 1500m in 9 minutes, do you?


Random people generally can't solve a cube in 5 days, let alone 5 minutes.


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## Dene (Jul 12, 2014)

Tempus said:


> There shouldn't be different categories. Everyone should be in one category: Humans. The events should differ, however, so that they don't all just favor fast fingers. Let everyone try their hand (or foot) at every event if they are able.



And what about someone with no limbs? What about someone who is completely paralysed other than their tongue? etc.

We just can't cater for everything, but what we can do is say "here's a 3x3, solve it any way you like". That is exactly what we have at the moment. How could we possibly be any more inclusive?


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## Tempus (Jul 12, 2014)

Dene said:


> And what about someone with no limbs? What about someone who is completely paralysed other than their tongue? etc.


I imagine they could still compete at FMC, provided they have some way to communicate their solution. What is your point?



Dene said:


> We just can't cater for everything, but what we can do is say "here's a 3x3, solve it any way you like". That is exactly what we have at the moment. How could we possibly be any more inclusive?


By having other events, such as foot solving, such that one strength cannot dominate the entirety of the sport. This should be obvious from what has been said thus far, so are you perhaps kidding with me when you ask the question?


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## Dene (Jul 12, 2014)

Tempus said:


> I imagine they could still compete at FMC, provided they have some way to communicate their solution. What is your point?



Unless I'm way off, you've been saying feet solving is worthy as a separate event in itself, because there are people that can't use their hands. Hence I ask what if someone can't use hands or feet? Should we have tongue solving as a separate event to cover this scenario?



Tempus said:


> By having other events, such as foot solving, such that one strength cannot dominate the entirety of the sport. This should be obvious from what has been said thus far, so are you perhaps kidding with me when you ask the question?



This is a significant deviation from your previous statements (in terms of the justification for keeping feet solving as a separate event). Regardless, your argument is still a slippery slope. Why let feet and hands dominate? Why not other body parts? How about an event where you use whistling to direct your dog to make moves on the cube to solve it? (not as outrageous as you might think)


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## uberCuber (Jul 12, 2014)

Tempus said:


> Random people generally can't solve a cube in 5 days, let alone 5 minutes.



I think I made a mistake in using the word "random," but this is not my point. There are also plenty of people that can't run 1500m in 9 minutes either.

My point was that the Olympics are a very specialized competition. Only very very good athletes can actually qualify. I couldn't come close to meeting the 2012 olympics qualification standards, and I am actually reasonably in shape when it comes to running compared to many people. Not many physically disabled people are able to qualify to compete in the olympics, seeing as most physically able people cannot either. If they do not have the special olympics, they would not have anything.

For the WCA however, in most competitions, the only requirement for the main 3x3 event is that the person can solve it in under 10 minutes, which is plenty doable by someone with the physical disability of not being able to use certain limbs. Even the *World Championship* competition last year had a 3x3 time limit of 3 minutes, which, again, is plenty doable with just the feet. So without a separate Feet event, such disabled people can absolutely still compete in the WCA in the regular 3x3 event. So your Olympics analogy does not fit.


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## Tim Major (Jul 12, 2014)

Tempus said:


> I imagine they could still compete at FMC, provided they have some way to communicate their solution. What is your point?
> 
> 
> By having other events, such as foot solving, such that one strength cannot dominate the entirety of the sport. This should be obvious from what has been said thus far, so are you perhaps kidding with me when you ask the question?



My toes are currently bruised and cut, and I'm not very fast at 2 hands, so why not add elbow solving for me? Because everyone would think elbow solving is stupid. Similar to how everyone thinks foot solving is stupid. How about trying to argue for adding elbow solving? I think if people WANTED to add feet now, you'd realise there are no real arguments to add it.


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## elrog (Jul 12, 2014)

There comes a point where the added inclusiveness you get from adding an event is not worth it. Unlike a disability, bruised and cut toes will heal (most of the time).


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## Tempus (Jul 13, 2014)

Dene said:


> Unless I'm way off, you've been saying feet solving is worthy as a separate event in itself, because there are people that can't use their hands. Hence I ask what if someone can't use hands or feet? Should we have tongue solving as a separate event to cover this scenario?


In many regulatory instances, a controlling authority must draw the line somewhere. It is natural to desire that the choice of where to draw the line is not arbitrary, but it is generally wiser to have an arbitrary point in the middle than to cling to one extreme or the other merely out of vanity.

By way of analogy, consider the mandated standards for the purity of drinking water. The higher the standards for purity, the more expensive the processing is, and it is a non-linear relationship. The non-arbitrary, extremist options are to have no standards at all (i.e. mud coming out of the tap), or perfect purity, i.e. not one molecule of anything other than H[SUB]2[/SUB]O ever comes out of the treatment plant. But the former is unacceptably toxic, and the latter is simply not feasible, as the entire output of the treatment plant would have to be diverted for testing, at which point there would be no usable water going to customers. The correct solution to to pick a point somewhere in the middle, a standard for water purity that is pure enough to be GRAS, but impure enough to allow everyone to afford water.

It may offend your sense of order in the universe, but sometimes the perfect is the enemy of the good.



Dene said:


> This is a significant deviation from your previous statements (in terms of the justification for keeping feet solving as a separate event).


I've been rereading everything I have written thus far in this thread, and I have found no such inconsistencies. I suspect that you either misread something I wrote, or are confusing me with someone else.



Dene said:


> Regardless, your argument is still a slippery slope. Why let feet and hands dominate? Why not other body parts? How about an event where you use whistling to direct your dog to make moves on the cube to solve it? (not as outrageous as you might think)


Your use of "slippery slope" in this instance would seem to be a logical fallacy, as you have not put forth a sound reason that the dominoes would continue to fall. After all, foot solving has been an event for many years, and not one supposedly ensuing domino has fallen yet. One can keep foot solving as an event without it leading to tongue solving, ergo "slippery slope" is nothing but unjustified rhetoric in your usage.




uberCuber said:


> For the WCA however, in most competitions, the only requirement for the main 3x3 event is that the person can solve it in under 10 minutes, which is plenty doable by someone with the physical disability of not being able to use certain limbs. Even the *World Championship* competition last year had a 3x3 time limit of 3 minutes, which, again, is plenty doable with just the feet. So without a separate Feet event, such disabled people can absolutely still compete in the WCA in the regular 3x3 event. So your Olympics analogy does not fit.


I would draw a distinction between being able to partake in an event and being able to compete. Averaging under 3 minutes would enable you to partake in the world championship, but to be able to truly compete you would have to average somewhere around 8 seconds. Good luck doing that with your feet.




Tim Major said:


> My toes are currently bruised and cut, and I'm not very fast at 2 hands, so why not add elbow solving for me? Because everyone would think elbow solving is stupid. Similar to how everyone thinks foot solving is stupid. How about trying to argue for adding elbow solving? I think if people WANTED to add feet now, you'd realise there are no real arguments to add it.


If everyone thinks that foot solving is stupid, then explain the poll results.


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## Lucas Garron (Jul 13, 2014)

Tempus said:


> In many regulatory instances, a controlling authority must draw the line somewhere. It is natural to desire that the choice of where to draw the line is not arbitrary, but it is generally wiser to have an arbitrary point in the middle than to cling to one extreme or the other merely out of vanity.



I wish people post ing this forum always had that in mind.

While sometimes there are good reasons to go closer to the extremes (in particular, if it helps us make things consistent without hurting anyone too much), we usually have to draw the line somewhere in the middle.
Given how many preferences we have to balance, things like puzzle regulations or what puzzles to include have to be at least a little arbitrary.


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## Dene (Jul 13, 2014)

Tempus said:


> I've been rereading everything I have written thus far in this thread, and I have found no such inconsistencies. I suspect that you either misread something I wrote, or are confusing me with someone else.



This is everything you've said thus far (minus unrelated stuff and the relevant previous quote to save space):



Tempus said:


> I feel like OH and Feet solving makes speedcubing a very inclusive sport. It means that those who don't have full use of both hands are still able to compete, and removing them capriciously would be analogous to discontinuing the special Olympics. It seems needlessly discriminatory.
> 
> If anything, we should be _increasing_ inclusivity, such as by adding an event for the blind. I'm thinking blindfold solving with a Braille cube, mirror blocks, or other cube where the faces are differentiable by feel alone, and where you have to put the blindfold on _before_ inspection. (I've tried solving my mirror blocks cube in total darkness, and it's entirely doable.)





Tempus said:


> This makes no sense. To continue the analogy, this comment is tantamount to saying that it's okay to discontinue the special Olympics because the physically disabled would still be able to compete against ordinary Olympians. Does that really seem like a reasonable position to you? Can you not see the inherent bias?





Tempus said:


> Yes, I think it's _entirely_ reasonable, and here is why: I see no reason to think that an able-bodied Olympian would have an advantage over an Olympian without legs _in an event where the legs cannot be used_, so if they were engaged in a wheelchair race, it would be a more-or-less fair contest. Both events can be inclusive. The key is to have some events where strong legs provide no advantage, or in the case of the speedcubing world, some events where functional hands or functional eyes provide no advantage. This is a better solution than segregating people into groups and saying "You aren't allowed to compete at this, so go away."
> 
> Given that my point was that inclusivity is good and exclusivity is bad, how could you construe that as an intent to exclude the able-bodied from foot-solving?
> 
> There shouldn't be different categories. Everyone should be in one category: Humans. The events should differ, however, so that they don't all just favor fast fingers. Let everyone try their hand (or foot) at every event if they are able.



As you can see, other than a vague/ambiguous comment right at the end, you haven't really given much indication that you feel we should have different events so one "strength" doesn't dominate. But let us move on from that as you have made the point explicitly now anyway.

Regardless, I feel this is an empty argument. In 99.999% of cases speedsolving twisty puzzles is done with the hands (CAVEAT: I completely made up that statistic). Of course, technically we can use our feet to do it, but really, why would you? Other than as a silly "party trick"... or if you don't have any hands. But this is such a rare scenario that it doesn't make sense for us to cater to this group separately (in the same way we shouldn't have a para-WCA). Put on top of this the fact that we aren't stopping anyone from using their feet in the regular 3x3 event (or any other, might I point out), and the whole thing seems redundant to me. 




Tempus said:


> In many regulatory instances, a controlling authority must draw the line somewhere. It is natural to desire that the choice of where to draw the line is not arbitrary, but it is generally wiser to have an arbitrary point in the middle than to cling to one extreme or the other merely out of vanity.



Naturally we need to come to an arbitrary middle ground. The question is where to draw the line, and what justification do we give for that? I don't see "some people don't have hands" as a strong reason for having an entirely separate event for feet solving. We already have a nice middle ground, as I have previously stated. In those extremely rare cases when someone doesn't have hands (does anyone have an example to refer to here?) we can happily accommodate those people with feet solving in the regular events. 



Tempus said:


> Your use of "slippery slope" in this instance would seem to be a logical fallacy, as you have not put forth a sound reason that the dominoes would continue to fall. After all, foot solving has been an event for many years, and not one supposedly ensuing domino has fallen yet. One can keep foot solving as an event without it leading to tongue solving, ergo "slippery slope" is nothing but unjustified rhetoric in your usage.



You forget that there is no sound reasoning for adding feet as an event in the first place. The reasons you give now might be an attempt to retrospectively justify it, but originally feet became an official event as a joke (darn you Anders). If Anders hadn't responded to the question with "I can solve it with my feet!" we wouldn't have it as an official event now, plain and simple (and I dare anyone to disagree). Thus the reason the dominoes haven't fallen, is because your reasoning doesn't apply in the first place. I'm willing to bet if Anders had said "I can solve it with chopsticks!" that would be an official event now instead.

If the WRC chooses to justify the continued existence of feet solving by using the arguments you put forth, then I will insist upon a range of other events being added (e.g. braille solving), which would probably be more regularly justified than feet solving (I'm pretty sure I've heard of a blind person solving at a competition, but not a hand-less person).



tl,dr; speedsolving twisty puzzles is an activity which is specifically hand-based. Any variation from using the hands would only realistically be done in case of physical limitations. To come to a middle ground, we are already extremely lenient in allowing events to be done in ways suited to people that are physically disabled in some way (e.g. braille cube for a blind person, shaped stickers for a colour blind person, feet solving for someone with no hands).

Feet solving as a separate event is redundant and should not be included as a serious official WCA event. (I know people say "it doesn't all have to be serious, blah blah etc. etc." which I totally agree with, but fun events should be done unofficially on the side, not as part of officially sanctioned events).

btw in case anyone is wondering, I have taken feet solving relatively seriously in the past. I'm not voting because I think it's stupid, but I belong in the "I do feet and think it should be scrapped" category.


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## Tim Major (Jul 13, 2014)

Dene said:


> btw in case anyone is wondering, I have taken feet solving relatively seriously in the past. I'm not voting because I think it's stupid, but I belong in the "I do feet and think it should be scrapped" category.



translates to



Dene said:


> btw in case anyone is wondering, feet OcR was a joke so I practised it years ago for wcaprofileswag



If feet had a 40 second NZ solver in 2008, do you think you would've ever practised it? Because I don't think you would've.


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## qqwref (Jul 13, 2014)

I don't see a point in specifically making events to cater to disabled people who can't solve a cube quickly. In cubing we just dump everyone in one group and let the fastest person win, and if you aren't fast, well, too bad. The vast majority of people in competitions are nowhere near world-class at 3x3x3, and I think that's a good lesson - everyone can't be fast, and everyone certainly does not deserve to be fast. No matter how much you practice, you may never get to a world-class level. And *if* you're not fast, for whatever reason, you should either accept that or choose a different sport. It's not "discrimination" that some people are physically incapable of a sub-15 average.

One thing Tempus seems to be forgetting or ignoring is that the main 3x3x3 event is NOT "two-handed". (We do ask that people start and stop the timer with their hands, but that rule can easily be suspended for people who can't do that.) You can pretty much do whatever to solve it as fast as possible. If someone doesn't have the use of their hands but can use some other body parts to solve the cube in 10 seconds, they have just as much ability to compete as a normal 10-second solver. People have done OH and BLD solves in the 3x3x3 round, and there's no reason someone couldn't do feet as well (or something else entirely) if the organizers were OK with moving the mat around to enable that. Even if someone is blind, I'm pretty sure they could solve a touch cube during the normal 3x3x3 event. So the only discrimination there is, again, the fact that some people are slower - and that's by no means the fault of the event or the WCA.


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## Dene (Jul 13, 2014)

Tim Major said:


> Dene said:
> 
> 
> > btw in case anyone is wondering, feet OcR was a joke so I practised it years ago for wcaprofileswag
> ...



This is completely untrue. For a start, there wasn't a feet OcR until I did it, and I was the only one for years. And I have never cared about records as I was never close to getting any (apart from NRs which just don't mean anything for New Zealand). If I just wanted to fill up my WCA profile with records, I would have done 2x2, would I not? (Also I would have given myself many more opportunities to better my feet times, which are horrible).

I actually found feet solving fun (hence why I did 7x7 with feet and other crazy stuff like that), and practised because I thought I was a decent shot at becoming world class. In 2008, other than Anssi, sub1 was really fast, and I was around 1 minute. (my official times ended up really bad because I hadn't practised since I went to the USA).

However I realised that feet is retarded as an official event, and while I would still consider it fun to do (I don't think I ever got around to trying sq-1 with feet), I don't think it should be official.


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## Sa967St (Jul 15, 2014)

Thanks for the feedback, everyone. 

I've updated the pros and cons list in the OP. I've added most of the new pros and cons mentioned in this thread as well as added more detail to the existing ones. Points that can be both positive and negative are now under "Neutral outcomes of removing Feet".

The list is also on Github.


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## cubizh (Jul 15, 2014)

If you want to make this list as complete as possible, I disagree with the usage of the term "_media_" only in the "Neutral outcomes" of Rubik's Cube: with feet potential removal.

Reading the neutrality statement, I am not sure media *at competitions* with (or without) feet is that frequent (or detailed/long) versus media coverage *in general* for speedcubing. I am interested in seeing examples of media coverage or news articles (in competition or not) that portray solving with feet and/or having feet as an event as a negative, disgusting or a joke thing, like pie or sausage eating contests often are. 
If anyone can find them (again, good or bad), it would be interesting to read how they approach the actual subject, and I think it should be made mention of it in the "Pros" side, potentially along the lines of "Media wouldn't look in disgust to speedcubing as they currently are." or something of the sorts.

I took the time to look for media specifically about solving with feet to see how it is portrayed and I found the following examples, all from Rafael in Brazil, where they consistently (over the course of the past 6 years) give tv coverage to solving with feet, featured as a highly technical and amazing skill, broadcast mostly in general entertainment and more casual tv shows, much like they would feature a magic act, juggling number or memory feat:



Spoiler: Tv spots (with dates)






Spoiler: 04/mar/2009



[YOUTUBEHD]AUNcsOOg4y8[/YOUTUBEHD]





Spoiler: 23/jul/2009



[YOUTUBEHD]uVtMH-UtqPY[/YOUTUBEHD]





Spoiler: 27/jan/2010



[YOUTUBEHD]aWUO95r5Wq4[/YOUTUBEHD]





Spoiler: 23/apr/2010



[YOUTUBEHD]UdA4dqt5gFQ[/YOUTUBEHD]





Spoiler: 09/may/2010



[YOUTUBEHD]-HuO-J3Kobg[/YOUTUBEHD]





Spoiler: 22/may/2010



[YOUTUBEHD]HmnniifDL3g[/YOUTUBEHD]





Spoiler: 12/aug/2010



[YOUTUBEHD]iA6_ZDllzog[/YOUTUBEHD]





Spoiler: 28/aug/2010



[YOUTUBEHD]8Snqoh_tUEg[/YOUTUBEHD]





Spoiler: 11/feb/2011



[YOUTUBEHD]uw7JXuJQv1c[/YOUTUBEHD]





Spoiler: 04/aug/2011



[YOUTUBEHD]Dm3pDnL3Jm0[/YOUTUBEHD]





Spoiler: 21/apr/2012



[YOUTUBEHD]XijXUS6Y47I[/YOUTUBEHD]





Spoiler: 10/nov/2012



[YOUTUBEHD]ZZFApH6pgyo[/YOUTUBEHD]





Spoiler: 05/feb/2013



[YOUTUBEHD]a4pwvXeHIEo[/YOUTUBEHD]





Spoiler: 06/mar/2013



[YOUTUBEHD]ki_qytHUNf0[/YOUTUBEHD]





Spoiler: 14/oct/2013



[YOUTUBEHD]RJAy63cs_WI[/YOUTUBEHD]





In most of these tv shows, Rafael is allowed to (obviously) solve but also talk a little about what he does and how he became so fast solving and how he progressed to feet as one alternative event and he oftens talks about the existence of rubik's cube competitions where fast people meet and solve all kinds of puzzles, and often the presenters are interested and completely unaware of this (as non-cubers often are).

Of course, even though these are multiple examples, it is only one very specific context. Brazil has a more laid back culture than most, which for something like speedcubing it can bring to light the funnier, more relaxed and easygoing aspects of the sport versus the more sporting/serious side of competing, which, of course, does not apply to other cultures. This last sentence is, evidently, my own personal oppinion and, undeniably, debatable.
Again, I would like to read more from other countries particularly regarding how media discusses competitions (with feet, but also, not) in programs like talk shows or news related spots. The rubik's cube in the media thread is quite sparse in details about this due mostly to the language barrier.

But to go back to my first paragraph, like it or not of feet, in Brazil, in my view from the outside, in what media is concerned, feet has kind of been an excuse to bring Rubik's Cube awareness to audiences that otherwise would not have the chance to see it and where the words "rubik's cube competition" are actually spoken on national tv. I also know for a fact that some people started competing because they saw these shows and became interested in cubing (in general). Aside from what has been previously stated in the thread, I think removing the event as official, it would certainly not take away the ability to perform feet solving on tv, which seems to be a good entry point for exposure in certain contexts, but it would probably illegitimize or make it more difficult to be opportune to invoke the competitive aspect of the sport, that has a lot of people involved all over the world, in a structured ranking, and is not just an isolated person that does it for fun alone.

Given this justification, lack of counterexamples where media has seriously hurt (or could hurt) the image of cubing, and given the fact that media alone is mentioned in this topic (which means it has its relevancy for feet), I would like to suggest to Sarah to move or, better yet, add a media statement to the "Negative outcomes of removing Feet:" with something like _"Removing the event could debilitate the media exposure cubing currently has in certain parts of the world."_.


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## cmhardw (Jul 15, 2014)

cubizh said:


> Given this justification, lack of counterexamples where media has seriously hurt (or could hurt) the image of cubing, and given the fact that media alone is mentioned in this topic (which means it has its relevancy for feet), I would like to suggest to Sarah to move or, better yet, add a media statement to the "Negative outcomes of removing Feet:" with something like _"Removing the event could debilitate the media exposure cubing currently has in certain parts of the world."_.



Your post is excellent, and very eloquently written! I particularly agree with the last part, quoted above.


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## Kirjava (Jul 15, 2014)

It's possible to solve a rubik's cube with your feet on TV in Brazil without it being a WCA event.


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## cmhardw (Jul 15, 2014)

Kirjava said:


> It's possible to solve a rubik's cube with your feet on TV in Brazil without it being a WCA event.



Ooh this looks fun. Let me try, too:

It is possible to solve a rubik's cube with your feet on TV in Brazil while it is also an official WCA event.


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## Skullush (Jul 15, 2014)

Kirjava said:


> It's possible to solve a rubik's cube with your feet on TV in Brazil without it being a WCA event.



It's possible to solve a rubik's cube on TV in Brazil without it being a WCA event.


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## Rocky0701 (Jul 15, 2014)

Do you guys honestly care about what the media says about cubing? Most likely, any news channel will not show a very accurate example of what speedsolving really is anyway.


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## Kirjava (Jul 15, 2014)

cmhardw said:


> Ooh this looks fun. Let me try, too:
> 
> It is possible to solve a rubik's cube with your feet on TV in Brazil while it is also an official WCA event.



I was saying so because a reason given for keeping feet is the positive media attention it produces in Brazil. Removing feet as an event will not disable that ability, thus negating the reason.


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## cmhardw (Jul 15, 2014)

Kirjava said:


> I was saying so because a reason given for keeping feet is the positive media attention it produces in Brazil. Removing feet as an event will not disable that ability, thus negating the reason.



In your opinion, which way is more difficult to get the attention of the media in order to do a TV foot cubing solve?

1) By approaching a reporter who is reporting on a WCA competition of which foot cubing is an event, or
2) By approaching a reporter on your own about a skill you have


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## Crazycubemom (Jul 15, 2014)

Something what I hate is the Feet event , the mat and the timer smell, it's annoying to be around that mat and timer.
Suppose the organizer to clean them up with disinfection gel or spray as they did at the Belgium Summer Open 2014 and if Ton as Organizer Czech Open ( I always clean up all mats and timers with Disinfection Spray )


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## Kirjava (Jul 15, 2014)

cmhardw said:


> In your opinion, which way is more difficult to get the attention of the media in order to do a TV foot cubing solve?
> 
> 1) By approaching a reporter who is reporting on a WCA competition of which foot cubing is an event, or
> 2) By approaching a reporter on your own about a skill you have



Two, obviously - you posed a bad question. 

Why can't a reporter reporting on a WCA event be shown foot cubing too, even if it's not an event? They will show non-WCA puzzles like 8x8x8 in shots as examples of other cubing extremes, for example.


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## cmhardw (Jul 15, 2014)

Kirjava said:


> Why can't a reporter reporting on a WCA event be shown foot cubing too, even if it's not an event? They will show non-WCA puzzles like 8x8x8 in shots as examples of other cubing extremes, for example.



They can, a reporter in an area that currently has lots of foot cubers probably would show foot cubers even if it was no longer an official WCA event.



Kirjava said:


> I was saying so because a reason given for keeping feet is the positive media attention it produces in Brazil. Removing feet as an event will not disable that ability, thus negating the reason.



Let me see if I am interpreting this correctly. I think that you are trying to refute this claim (below):



cubizh said:


> _"Removing the event could debilitate the media exposure cubing currently has in certain parts of the world."_.



You then follow up by saying:



Kirjava said:


> Removing feet as an event will not disable that ability, thus negating the reason.



I paraphrase this as:
"So removing feet as an event does not disable the ability of a media story to bring positive attention to the cubing community."

I agree with this.



Kirjava said:


> ... thus negating the reason.



So if I understand completely you are saying that:



cubizh said:


> _"Removing the event could debilitate the media exposure cubing currently has in certain parts of the world."_.



is completely invalid as a reason to support foot cubing because (what follows below is my paraphrase):
_"...removing feet as an event does not disable the ability of a media story to bring positive attention to the cubing community."_

The italicized argument above could be used to say that we can remove absolutely any event, or even ALL events. Media exposure about cubing can be positive without the presence of the WCA at all.

I would like to use your same argument to say that we should remove all events from the WCA, as that would not disable the ability of media exposure to still shine a positive light on our community of speedcubers.

--edit--

If anything, perhaps we should not be considering the effects of media exposure at all when deciding whether or not to remove 3x3x3 with feet as an event?


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## cubizh (Jul 15, 2014)

Kirjava said:


> It's possible to solve a rubik's cube with your feet on TV in Brazil without it being a WCA event.


Not only I agree with that statement, I actually stated it in my earlier post: 


cubizh said:


> (...) I think removing the event as official, it would certainly not take away the ability to perform feet solving on tv (...)



The point I was trying to make was that while being on TV doing feet solves (which is undeniably something media seems to be targeting, for any given reason), it would make it harder, or at least more forced and unnatural, to introduce the topic of speedcubing, aiming the growth of the sport, or at least make people aware/interested in speedcubing (what we do), promoting all other WCA events except what you were actually called to do.


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## Kirjava (Jul 15, 2014)

cmhardw said:


> The italicized argument above could be used to say that we can remove absolutely any event, or even ALL events.



It's not an argument for removal (I don't have a truly objective one of those), I'm just saying that positive media exposure doesn't rely on the WCA - so saying feet gives positive media attention doesn't feel like a huge reason to keep it. Yes, this also applies to all events.

As you concluded, it's a moot point.


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## cmhardw (Jul 15, 2014)

Kirjava said:


> It's not an argument for removal *(I don't have a truly objective one of those)*, I'm just saying that positive media exposure doesn't rely on the WCA - so saying feet gives positive media attention doesn't feel like a huge reason to keep it. Yes, this also applies to all events.
> 
> As you concluded, it's a moot point.



I think the root of this issue is that I don't have any truly objective arguments either for feet cubing remaining an event. It seems that the decision to remove or keep feet as an event _must_ be made using subjective reasoning.

Is there some way to get a really accurate sense from the community of how many people want to remove feet, and how many want to keep? Are there members of this forum who could start this thread in other language communities as well?

Perhaps collecting the poll results from many different countries would be useful in making this decision.


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## Kirjava (Jul 16, 2014)

cmhardw said:


> I think the root of this issue is that I don't have any truly objective arguments either for feet cubing remaining an event. It seems that the decision to remove or keep feet as an event _must_ be made using subjective reasoning.



I'm glad you think that lack of objective reason isn't reason enough to not consider rocking the boat.



cmhardw said:


> Is there some way to get a really accurate sense from the community of how many people want to remove feet, and how many want to keep? Are there members of this forum who could start this thread in other language communities as well?
> 
> Perhaps collecting the poll results from many different countries would be useful in making this decision.



I worry that this data collection would be inaccurate for various reasons.


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## qqwref (Jul 16, 2014)

cmhardw said:


> I think the root of this issue is that I don't have any truly objective arguments either for feet cubing remaining an event.


How could there be any truly objective arguments for removing or keeping an event?

No, I'm serious. What's the criterion for whether something's an event? Why solving with feet and not solving with elbows? Why 4BLD and not 4OH? Why Rubik's Clock and not Rubik's Fifteen? The truth is, there's no objective standard. There is nothing you can prove about an event (with statistics or mathematics) that will give the WCA no choice but to add or remove the event. We have added and removed events over the years by more or less following the community's feelings, and the set of events we have now is certainly somewhat arbitrary. It's certainly not the most interesting or mathematically pure or difficult puzzles, and it's probably not even the most popular either, if you discount the huge popularity boost that an event gets just by being official. So if you want to add or remove an event, you can't argue that it does or does not match the requirements an event needs to have, because there is no such concept.


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## cubizh (Jul 16, 2014)

I generally agree with what you said.
Please note that my previous statement was supposed to be a comment regarding "Negative outcomes for removing feet", which, in my view, equates to "if the 'Rubik's Cube:with feet' is removed / becomes unofficial, what can change/what can the impact be for the WCA members and for speedcubing in general". In this regard, I think attracting more media attention to speedcubing/competitions where other events take place (which in turn can bring more people to the sport), in the previously stated context, can be a bit more cumbersome. Doesn't mean it's impossible or unfeasible, but would certainly, at least, be distinct to what currently happens, in my oppinion. Reading OP's list made me reflect that this idea was missing and made me state my view on this particular matter.

It's different than trying to make a case for a reason to keep or remove the event, which was not what I was trying to do.
I agree that there is no clear and, most importantly, objective set of reasons to keep or remove this particular event that unquestionably rises above all others.

EDIT:


qqwref said:


> How could there be any truly objective arguments for removing or keeping an event?


If the number of competitions with an event steadily decline over the course of over a year up to the point where no one actually competes or wants to organize a competition with that event anymore, seems somewhat an objective argument to remove an event.


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## TimMc (Jul 16, 2014)

cubizh said:


> Again, I would like to read more from other countries particularly regarding how media discusses competitions (with feet, but also, not) in programs like talk shows or news related spots.



This kind of sums up the media exposure that the Rubik's Cube gets in Australia (not feet related):
Bad and good.

The reasons for removing an event really need to be presented clearly with evidence to support each claim rather than personal opinion. If there really aren't any genuine reasons for removing 333feet then this time could be better spent: improving operational rules for the association (including how to add/remove events), designing new timing equipment, upgrading the web site etc. If there are genuine reasons, we could also look at resolving those issues rather than scrapping the event entirely. I.e. If some scramblers kept eating food and made cubes sticky, we could just ask them not to eat food + wash their hands + wear gloves.

Tim.


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## DrKorbin (Jul 16, 2014)

My 2 cents:

I think WF hurts the image of cubing.
I have seen many times when a speedcuber gives an interview and he says: "We can solve it with one hand, blindfolded, with feet", and the interviewer interrupts him and says: "WITH YOUR FEET? OH MY GOD!!1111!!1" Probably the interviewer doesn't think that we are nerds, and is truly impressed that we solve with feet. However...
Another example: during one competition a large crowd of people gathered around wf-solvers and applaused after each attempt. While 3x3 bld event didn't attract so much attention.

See what I mean?
WF hurts the image of cubing because non-cubers think that WF is amazing and much more cooler than BLD. While BLD is much harder and basically everyone who can solve 3x3 with hands can do it with feet.

So if media in your country is amazed by WF solvers and is not amazed by BLD solvers then probably the image of cubing in your country is already damaged.


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## Renslay (Jul 16, 2014)

DrKorbin said:


> My 2 cents:
> 
> I think WF hurts the image of cubing.



Maybe a bit offtopic, but I think seeing teen aged and/or clearly unprofessional judges on an official competition hurts much, MUCH more.


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## Musicalboy2 (Jul 16, 2014)

DrKorbin said:


> My 2 cents:
> 
> I think WF hurts the image of cubing.
> I have seen many times when a speedcuber gives an interview and he says: "We can solve it with one hand, blindfolded, with feet", and the interviewer interrupts him and says: "WITH YOUR FEET? OH MY GOD!!1111!!1" Probably the interviewer doesn't think that we are nerds, and is truly impressed that we solve with feet. However...
> ...



Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm interpreting your general argument as "Feet is bad for media because BLD doesn't look impressive"

Even if feet was pushing out BLD, why does this actually damage the image of cubing? (You even said in your post that they thought it was cool)

Let's take an extreme example from the same line of thinking... Megaminx is not particularly more difficult than a 3x3. Doing well in FMC takes a lot of knowledge. If megaminx is shown and is thought to be a lot more interesting to the general public than FMC, is it automatically bad for the image of cubing?


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## TimMc (Jul 16, 2014)

Musicalboy2 said:


> If megaminx is shown and is thought to be a lot more interesting to the general public than FMC, is it automatically bad for the image of cubing?



What is the image of cubing?

Tim.


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## guysensei1 (Jul 16, 2014)

TimMc said:


> What is the image of cubing?
> 
> Tim.



'Nerds'

'Math geeks'


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## cmhardw (Jul 16, 2014)

qqwref said:


> How could there be any truly objective arguments for removing or keeping an event?
> 
> No, I'm serious. What's the criterion for whether something's an event? Why solving with feet and not solving with elbows? Why 4BLD and not 4OH? Why Rubik's Clock and not Rubik's Fifteen? The truth is, there's no objective standard. There is nothing you can prove about an event (with statistics or mathematics) that will give the WCA no choice but to add or remove the event. We have added and removed events over the years by more or less following the community's feelings, and the set of events we have now is certainly somewhat arbitrary. It's certainly not the most interesting or mathematically pure or difficult puzzles, and it's probably not even the most popular either, if you discount the huge popularity boost that an event gets just by being official. So if you want to add or remove an event, you can't argue that it does or does not match the requirements an event needs to have, because there is no such concept.





cubizh said:


> If the number of competitions with an event steadily decline over the course of over a year up to the point where no one actually competes or wants to organize a competition with that event anymore, seems somewhat an objective argument to remove an event.



I think the argument cubizh gives is a good, objective, measure of the relative popularity of an event as viewed by the community. If an event was hosted less and less frequently over time, I think that could be used as an objective argument for its removal.

I think qqwref makes a great case that there really is no objective measure to argue for the inclusion of an event.

--edit--

On second thought, qqwref, how would you feel about the following situation:

A new puzzle is invented, call it puzzle P, and is currently unofficial. Over a period of two years this puzzle is hosted with increasing frequency around the world as an unofficial event at many officially sanctioned WCA events.

I would argue that this could be an objective measure of the popularity of a puzzle as viewed by a portion of the community. Basically, I think this would be evidence that could be used by the WCA board in favor of the side that wants to include event with puzzle P as an official WCA event.


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## Mike Hughey (Jul 16, 2014)

qqwref said:


> How could there be any truly objective arguments for removing or keeping an event?



I think there has been a truly objective argument for removing events: Magic and Master Magic. In those cases, the objective argument was that the events were too challenging to judge properly - it was probably possible to judge them properly, but it was too challenging to enforce at all our competitions. For that reason, the events were removed.

That to me is an objective argument for removing an event.

And as for my subjective opinion, I would prefer that we never remove an event unless we have an objective reason to remove the event, so I would prefer that we not remove any of the current events. But I admit that is purely my subjective opinion.


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## kcl (Jul 16, 2014)

Mike Hughey said:


> I think there has been a truly objective argument for removing events: Magic and Master Magic. In those cases, the objective argument was that the events were too challenging to judge properly - it was probably possible to judge them properly, but it was too challenging to enforce at all our competitions. For that reason, the events were removed.
> 
> That to me is an objective argument for removing an event.
> 
> And as for my subjective opinion, I would prefer that we never remove an event unless we have an objective reason to remove the event, so I would prefer that we not remove any of the current events. But I admit that is purely my subjective opinion.



I agree entirely with this. People practice the event. It is held from time to time. Why take it away? We're all thought of as nerds anyway, it isn't like the Cubing image in the press makes us seem all badass.


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## Swordsman Kirby (Jul 17, 2014)

qqwref said:


> But H perm is a special case, isn't it? There are a lot of pretty good algs for H with different move sets. In your list, I have seen people use the third one for OH (albeit executed differently) and I myself use it for sim.
> 
> As you mentioned, the difference between RFLB and RULD is just a rotation. So I would be surprised to hear that for feetsolvers most of OLL/PLL had to be replaced with new algs, or that F2L was done totally differently than in OH. The biggest difference is that turns have to be done even more slowly than in OH, which certainly does affect what turns a good solver would want to do, but it doesn't seem like a big enough change to have people develop entirely new ideas and techniques, like we have seen for OH.



Yeah the H perm is a somewhat special case. Perhaps feetsolving isn't significantly different from OH, but at least it's different from 2H in the same way OH is. I'm not sure what the "new ideas and techniques" are in OH, but I feel like most changes that are useful for OH would also be useful for feetsolving because of 2-gen/4-gen. With regards to RULD, a feetsolver can execute L and D without rotations. For F2L, it means that I can less awkwardly do "D" turns for stuff like keyhole. Then again, I'm not sure how much time world-class OH solvers lose on rotations like that.


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## Ranzha (Jul 18, 2014)

TimMc said:


> What is the image of cubing?
> 
> Tim.



After reading through this thread, I realise that the media arguments are pretty moot. This said, I feel there's a huge disparity between how non-cubers view speedsolving and what cubers know is speedsolving, primarily rooted from the disparity in the view on the cube itself.

The biggest things that most people don't understand when they first pick a cube up are that (a) the cube is made of different kinds of pieces with stickers fixed to them, (b) the centre sticker of each face is a fixed reference point, (c) there is only one of each piece and only one solved location for each piece, and (d) destroying your progress is not only a fixable and okay thing to do, but a necessary thing to do to progress further.

These seem like fundamental concepts to those who have solved the cube at least once. However, there is an epiphanic shock on noncubers' faces when I inform them of these key ideas.

And then comes the frustration. In the video posted of Feliks on that IQ show, the host literally smashes a cube to make manifest the idea of frustration. With some direction, people may be able to realise that the cube isn't cryptic or insurmountable and maybe better appreciate the achievements of cubers like Feliks et al.

On another note comes the Cube20 news. Sure, everyone heard that the cube can be solved in 20 moves or fewer, but I don't think the public really appreciates what went into the findings as some cubers might.

tl;dr Improving the public outlook on the cube by making widely known some fundamental ideas about the cube may allow for informed appreciation of cubing achievements.


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## CuberM (Sep 13, 2014)

Even though a lot of people don't like it, a lot of people do like it. How will competitions be improved if it is removed?


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## Dene (Sep 14, 2014)

CuberM said:


> Even though a lot of people don't like it, a lot of people do like it. How will competitions be improved if it is removed?



Seeing as you've gone and bumped this dead thread, you asked for it...

Your reasoning is horrible. Therefore any conclusions you come to based on your reasoning are unjustified.


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## Tempus (Sep 15, 2014)

Dene said:


> Seeing as you've gone and bumped this dead thread, you asked for it...
> 
> Your reasoning is horrible. Therefore any conclusions you come to based on your reasoning are unjustified.


His underlying reasoning is sound, he just omitted certain salient parts from his expression of it. Allow me to rephrase it into a clearer expression of what I believe he meant: "Even though a lot of people don't like it, _MORE_ people _DO_ like it, as evinced by the current poll results." At the time of this writing, 42.52% voted to retain the event, whereas only 37.54% voted to eliminate it. You've lost the election, Dene.


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## Dene (Sep 15, 2014)

I was referring to the second sentence of his post.


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## SpeedCubeReview (Sep 15, 2014)

CuberM said:


> Even though a lot of people don't like it, a lot of people do like it. How will competitions be improved if it is removed?



That makes perfect sense. If we remove it I do not think competitions would be "better." whether you take is seriously think it's absolutely silly either way it's a positive in my book.


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## qqwref (Sep 15, 2014)

Short competitions are certainly easier to organize and run (and help out in) without feet. You don't have to move the timers and tables and stuff around, clean and deodorize things so people who don't love feet aren't disgusted, etc. while still keeping to the fixed number of hours you have the venue for.

Of course, bigBLD/multiBLD/FMC also make competitions harder to run, but at least (IMO) those have a lot of additional technique and skill above and beyond normal speedsolving, whereas feet doesn't.


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## SolveThatCube (Sep 15, 2014)

qqwref said:


> Short competitions are certainly easier to organize and run (and help out in) without feet. You don't have to move the timers and tables and stuff around, clean and deodorize things so people who don't love feet aren't disgusted, etc. while still keeping to the fixed number of hours you have the venue for.
> 
> Of course, bigBLD/multiBLD/FMC also make competitions harder to run, but at least (IMO) those have a lot of additional technique and skill above and beyond normal speedsolving, *whereas feet doesn't.*



This really bugs me. How can you say feet doesn't require skill? You saying Gabriel Pereira Campanha broke WR without skill and technique?


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## CHJ (Sep 15, 2014)

Feet is similar to standard 3x3 and even more so to OH.
so what qq is saying is that 3BLD isn't as closely similar to bigBLD and that FMC isn't that similar to standard 3x3. Us feet solvers practice and try to improve with new techniques and practicing our skills just as BLD'ers do or for any other puzzle. Yes it takes a while to set up, just as FMC does, maybe not as much but still that factor, and if it seems disgusting, deal with it, not like you're actually competing in it.
as for the debate on how it looks to people who aren't cubers, NO ONE CARES!!!!! they wanna cube sure, why should feet be a problem to them.
now for the hassle of timing for events and stuff, 1 day comps yeah i can agree but who are you to complain if feet is there and something else you want isn't there, why don't you organise your own and stop complaining to the people who go out of their own ways of organisation.
now this rant of mine is probably been mentioned like twice over but it needs to be done, this thread shouldn't even be here and people should stop having a go at the WCA.


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## cubizh (Sep 15, 2014)

SolveThatCube said:


> This really bugs me. How can you say feet doesn't require skill? You saying Gabriel Pereira Campanha broke WR without skill and technique?


He's just stating his oppinion. Other people may argue that bigBLD is basically regular BLD with a lot more memorization, there's not a lot of technique involved.
It's very subjective and easy to give a biased oppinion when you are not into what it takes to be fast at an event.

Regarding the time it takes to move stuff around, one can potentially point out that in the time it takes to scramble and verify a big cube like 5x5 (for 5BLD) is roughly the same time it takes to scramble for feet + clean and move a stackmat from the floor to the table or vice-versa.


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## cc9tough (Sep 15, 2014)

qqwref said:


> Of course, bigBLD/multiBLD/FMC also make competitions harder to run, but at least (IMO) those have a lot of additional technique and skill above and beyond normal speedsolving, whereas feet doesn't.


by that logic we should also remove OH since its so similar to normal speed solving.


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## lorki3 (Sep 15, 2014)

cc9tough said:


> by that logic we should also remove OH since its so similar to normal speed solving.



Nooo, not my beloved OH :'(


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## Ranzha (Sep 15, 2014)

cc9tough said:


> by that logic we should also remove OH since its so similar to normal speed solving.



Many adept OH solvers learn alternative algorithm sets specifically for OH solving. I don't believe this is the case with feetsolving. (If it is the case, feel free to correct me.)


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## Mollerz (Sep 15, 2014)

Ranzha V. Emodrach said:


> Many adept OH solvers learn alternative algorithm sets specifically for OH solving. I don't believe this is the case with feetsolving. (If it is the case, feel free to correct me.)



It is.


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## Przemek Kaleta (Sep 15, 2014)

Mollerz said:


> It is.


Indeed.


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## kcl (Sep 15, 2014)

Ranzha V. Emodrach said:


> Many adept OH solvers learn alternative algorithm sets specifically for OH solving. I don't believe this is the case with feetsolving. (If it is the case, feel free to correct me.)



As two people said before me, top feet solvers definitely learn alternate alg sets. While I don't favor the event, it is a category of its own which requires skill and I feel it should stay.


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## STOCKY7 (Sep 15, 2014)

Mollerz said:


> It is.



I confirm


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## Matt11111 (Sep 15, 2014)

3x3 with feet is stupid and useless.


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## Ollie (Sep 15, 2014)

Matt11111 said:


> 3x3 with feet is stupid and useless.



unlike your comment

explain why it is stupid and 'useless' without repeating what has already been said in this thread 4/5/6 times


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## stoic (Sep 15, 2014)

Ollie said:


> what has already been said in this thread 4/5/6 times





kclejeune said:


> As two people said before me,


Yeah this thread's on a loop now really isn't it?


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## DrKorbin (Sep 15, 2014)

It is. I already remember discussing if feet solvers use algs different from 2h/oh solvers.


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## Cale S (Sep 15, 2014)

I think it's even more important for feet than OH to learn additional algs, because movecount greatly affects your times in feet.

In my opinion, feet is about solving efficiently and turning with your feet as fast as you can. 
Which is exactly like OH if you replace 'turning with your feet' with 'turning using only one of your hands'. I don't see what feet adds over OH.


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## qqwref (Sep 16, 2014)

SolveThatCube said:


> This really bugs me. How can you say feet doesn't require skill? You saying Gabriel Pereira Campanha broke WR without skill and technique?


I don't think it has a lot of its own skills and techniques that don't already apply to the normal speedsolving events. BigBLD, multiBLD, and FMC do. OH also doesn't have a lot of its own skills and techniques - like feet, by far the biggest thing you need to be good is to spend a lot of time practicing the movements until you can do them fluently and quickly. However, OH is extremely easy to hold in competition.

My point was that feet is a combination of difficult to hold in competition, and also not very unique in theory terms.


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## SolveThatCube (Sep 16, 2014)

Ranzha V. Emodrach said:


> Many adept OH solvers learn alternative algorithm sets specifically for OH solving. I don't believe this is the case with feetsolving. (If it is the case, feel free to correct me.)



Buddy, it is.


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## Erik (Sep 16, 2014)

qqwref said:


> Short competitions are certainly easier to organize and run (and help out in) without feet. You don't have to move the timers and tables and stuff around, clean and deodorize things so people who don't love feet aren't disgusted, etc. while still keeping to the fixed number of hours you have the venue for.
> 
> Of course, bigBLD/multiBLD/FMC also make competitions harder to run, but at least (IMO) those have a lot of additional technique and skill above and beyond normal speedsolving, whereas feet doesn't.



QQ: Normally I find your posts to be well informed, to the point and logical. But this one has some things in it which are just plain wrong.

Firstly: who says an organizer of a short competition chooses to hold feet? And if he does, it's his responsibility the stuff gets moved, not yours as a competitor (of course it's nice to help). Also: moving the timers to the floor takes 2 minutes. These are kind of non-arguments. I get the feeling you are trying to argue towards impracticality even though the real reason is that you just don't like the event (which is fine of course).

BigBLD's and FMC take *significantly* longer to hold, put a bigger 'strain' on the organizer and have bigger impacts on time schedules and/or venue specifications (extra room or not).

Claiming feet doesn't require skill beyond normal hand-speedsolving is just a sign that you don't really know what feet (and a BIG part of speedsolving) is about. It's not only about solving techniques (which are different when doing feet), but also about *dexterity*. I'd say dexterity is as important if not more important than learning a new set of algs, which fast people actually do (Ranzha).


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## tseitsei (Sep 16, 2014)

Feet mostly just requires good tps with feet (maybe some new algs also) but the basic solving method is the same as in 3x3 speedsolve. 

And same goes for OH. By far the most important thing is how fast you can turn the cube with the new limitation.
Nothing new is added to the thinking part of the solve or the method of solving the cube (learning new algs for same cases doesn't really change the method significantly).

That is why I don't like feet and oh both. I know oh won't be removed it is too popular but do we really need 2 of these "turn as fast as you can with some handicap" events? I think not but feel free to disagree if you want...


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## Goosly (Sep 16, 2014)

Erik said:


> Claiming feet doesn't require skill beyond normal hand-speedsolving is just a sign that you don't really know what feet (and a BIG part of speedsolving) is about.



Qqwref never claimed that. He only said it doesn't require *a lot of additional skill in his opinion*, whereas bigBLD, multibld and FMC does.


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## Erik (Sep 16, 2014)

Goosly said:


> Qqwref never claimed that. He only said it doesn't require *a lot of additional skill in his opinion*, whereas bigBLD, multibld and FMC does.



He did in this post. 


qqwref said:


> Of course, bigBLD/multiBLD/FMC also make competitions harder to run, *but at least (IMO) those have a lot of additional technique and skill above and beyond normal speedsolving, whereas feet doesn't.*



And the in the next post he gave in a bit:


qqwref said:


> I don't think it has a lot of its own skills and techniques that don't already apply to the normal speedsolving events.



Solving your cube with your feet is no additional skill? It's as easy as twisting your cubes with 2 hands? I didn't think so. *Physical* skills (dexterity) and *mental *(methods and algs) skills are both skills. You need to develop new skills in both of these areas if you want to be good at feet. The physical skill is even more important than mental skills at feet I'd say. Maybe that's part of why media thinks especially feet is impressive. You can quickly see additional skill is required in comparison with normal 2-hand solving. This is harder to spot at other 2-Handed twisty puzzle events like megaminx or 5x5 (both obviously also require new skills).


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## Goosly (Sep 16, 2014)

Erik said:


> Solving your cube with your feet is no additional skill? It's as easy as twisting your cubes with 2 hands? I didn't think so.



Obviously nobody thinks it's as easy as 2-handed. You seem to be ignoring the part "a lot of", which I put in bold for a reason


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## Erik (Sep 16, 2014)

Goosly said:


> Obviously nobody thinks it's as easy as 2-handed. You seem to be ignoring the part "a lot of", which I put in bold for a reason



Yes let's debate on how to measure skill. How about litres? 

FMC and BigBLD require mostly new mental skills whereas the emphasis is more on physical skills on feet (again: you *do* need new algs, maybe even more than at OH). So what? That doesn't make it a worse event, nor an easy event, and especially not an event which barely requires new skill. Speedsolving is not chess where it's 99% thinking and 1% executing moves (exception: blitz and bullet). It has always been a balance between dexterity (speed) and puzzling (solving).

I've said it before: removing feet can be justifyable, if done for the right reasons. "Lack of skill" is not a valid reason, whereas "not many competitors" would be.


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## Goosly (Sep 16, 2014)

Erik said:


> I've said it before: removing feet can be justifyable, if done for the right reasons. "Lack of skill" is not a valid reason, whereas "not many competitors" would be.



I agree. I'm not giving arguments for removing feet. I currently don't want any events to be removed. All I wanted to do was clarify qqwrefs opinion, since you seemed to think he was claiming feet doesn't require any skill at all, which he did not.


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## Laura O (Sep 16, 2014)

If anyone wants to join the discussion but lacks arguments, you can collect them on the previous 20 pages.
Discussions about OH/feet algorithms can be found on page 15.


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## XTowncuber (Sep 16, 2014)

Soooo I guess we loved this thread so much that we thought it deserved some reruns? Seriously, I kinda feel like we already had this discussion


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## abunickabhi (Oct 9, 2014)

Feet solving has been well established.also ppl have tried solving 7x7 with feet under 20min.so it is a legit event.but I personally feel that feet and clock take away the speedcubing spirit since the 2 events r not best to judge and not main priorities of many cubers including me.


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## Berd (Oct 13, 2014)

> .but I personally feel that feet and clock take away the speedcubing spirit since the 2 events r not best to judge and not main priorities of many cubers including me.



A slight variation; but I feel clock cant be enjoyed by spectators due to the absence of sight on the puzzle; this is the reason we don't have 2D puzzles like 15Puzzle.

Additionally; I tried my firs feet solve yesterday; 25 second average with 2 hands; I took me 22 minutes. Sums up my love for the event.


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## antoineccantin (Oct 14, 2014)

Berd said:


> A slight variation; but I feel clock cant be enjoyed by spectators due to the absence of sight on the puzzle; this is the reason we don't have 2D puzzles like 15Puzzle.
> 
> Additionally; I tried my firs feet solve yesterday; 25 second average with 2 hands; I took me 22 minutes. Sums up my love for the event.



My first 4BLD attempt was almost two hours, and a DNF, when I averaged 3 minutes at 3BLD. Just because I was bad at it on my first attempt doesn't mean it's a bad event, or I hated it.


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## Rcuber123 (Oct 14, 2014)

antoineccantin said:


> My first 4BLD attempt was almost two hours, and a DNF, when I averaged 3 minutes at 3BLD. Just because I was bad at it on my first attempt doesn't mean it's a bad event, or I hated it.



In my first feet solve I Wasn't able to Finnish my cross, and now it is one of my favorite events.


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## ryanj92 (Oct 14, 2014)

Berd said:


> A slight variation; but I feel clock cant be enjoyed by spectators due to the absence of sight on the puzzle; this is the reason we don't have 2D puzzles like 15Puzzle.
> 
> Additionally; I tried my firs feet solve yesterday; 25 second average with 2 hands; I took me 22 minutes. Sums up my love for the event.


In that case, why do we do FMC? 

(Also, I don't know of this is what you meant but you must be quite fond of the event if you were willing to spend 25 minutes doing one solve.. )


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## maps600 (Oct 14, 2014)

Berd said:


> A slight variation; but I feel clock cant be enjoyed by spectators due to the absence of sight on the puzzle; this is the reason we don't have 2D puzzles like 15Puzzle.
> 
> Additionally; I tried my firs feet solve yesterday; 25 second average with 2 hands; I took me 22 minutes. Sums up my love for the event.



I think that is impossible. My first feet attempt was around 7 minutes. Since a normal CFOP solve is about 60 moves, that means you did around 3 moves per *minute.*

Edit: of course it is possible, just unlikely that it took you 22 minutes.


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## samuelqwe (Oct 17, 2014)

I think it should stay because a lot of people would be disappointed.

Like all the fast people that practice all the time.


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## Swordsman Kirby (Oct 29, 2014)

maps600 said:


> Since a normal CFOP solve is about 60 moves, that means you did around 3 moves per *minute.*



It's likely that he messed up somewhere along the way and had to do many extra moves.


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## Berd (Oct 29, 2014)

Swordsman Kirby said:


> It's likely that he messed up somewhere along the way and had to do many extra moves.



Yeah, I messed up OLL. Still was only around 100 moves hahaha


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## maps600 (Oct 30, 2014)

Berd said:


> Yeah, I messed up OLL. Still was only around 100 moves hahaha



I messed up LL on my first feet solve and still got a 8 minute solve... maybe that's because I know how to blockbuild


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## hotufos (Dec 6, 2018)

Bump, since now feet will actually be removed.


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