# Exceptions with logos on certain puzzles.



## Deleted member 19792 (Nov 12, 2013)

I recently purchased a Calvin's Square -1. It has two logos. A "Square-1" and a "Calvins Puzzle"

Does this make the puzzle competition illegal or is it an exception..

Do any of you have other thoughts with other puzzles?


----------



## Sa967St (Nov 12, 2013)

It's not competition legal if it has more than one logo. Sometimes people can get away with it if the scramblers don't notice, but you're not allowed to use a puzzle with two or more logos.


----------



## Deleted member 19792 (Nov 12, 2013)

Sa967St said:


> It's not competition legal if it has more than one logo. Sometimes people can get away with it if the scramblers don't notice, but you're not allowed to use a puzzle with two or more logos.



So this makes the Calvin's square-1 illegal? (I noticed it from your video review)


----------



## Sa967St (Nov 12, 2013)

strakerak said:


> So this makes the Calvin's square-1 illegal? (I noticed it from your video review)


No, it just means you can't use it when it has two logos. You can peel them off, although they leave a sticky residue behind that isn't easy to clean off of the equatorial stickers, or you can just entirely resticker one of the R/L faces.


----------



## Deleted member 19792 (Nov 12, 2013)

Oh ok. I did order stickers for it as well.


----------



## Tim Major (Nov 12, 2013)

It's a stupid regulation but yes, competition illegal.

Logos should be banned on corner/edge pieces, but unless there is a textural change, they should be allowed on centres as much as you want. They give you an advantage on edges/corners (there is a regulation banning them for 3x3+, but it technically helps of 2x2 and Pyra.)

It offers 0 advantage having multiple (on centre pieces) but rules are rules I guess


----------



## blade740 (Nov 12, 2013)

I have 2 logos on pretty much all my square-1s, and have never had anyone give me any problems about them. This is definitely a violation of regulation 3l, though:



> 3l) A cube puzzle may have a logo, but it must have at most one logo. For the Rubik's Cube or bigger cube puzzles the logo must be placed on one of the centre pieces.
> 3l1) Colourless engravings (max. 1 per face) are not considered logos.



With Calvin's Square-1, just peel off one of the clear logo stickers to make the puzzle legit. The colored sticker is separate so you don't need to resticker anything, just clean off the residue like Sarah said.


----------



## uberCuber (Nov 12, 2013)

Square-1 might as well be added to the regs as an exception to this rule, because I'm pretty sure nobody enforces it for Square-1 anyway.


----------



## TMOY (Nov 12, 2013)

Yep, this is the perfect example of an useless rule that should definitely be changed. Logos on L/R equatorial stickers are of absolutely no help during the solve, you don't even have to look at them at any moment since the F side already tells you in which orientation the middle layer pieces are. And as a matter of fact, I've never seen anybody caring about these lgos during comps.

Yes, it's always possible to replace one single sticker to make your square-1 comp legal. But I would really prefer that the rule become more intelligent.


----------



## Stefan (Nov 12, 2013)

TMOY said:


> Yep, this is the perfect example of an useless rule that should definitely be changed.



No. It's not useless. It for example prevents recognition advantages caused by logos on corners.



TMOY said:


> But I would really prefer that the rule become more intelligent.



More "intelligent" would likely also mean more complicated. Maybe you can somehow cover all possible scenarios, but I think the regulations are long and complicated enough. I welcome a reasonable short simple rule like this.

Btw, it's unclear to me whether/how this rule applies to Square-1. It's only for "cube puzzles", and 4d1-4d3 make it look like Square-1 isn't considered a cube puzzle. If that's the case, neither the "may have a logo" nor the "must have at most one logo" apply. I'd say the explicit permission for cube puzzles implies that such explicit permission is necessary (otherwise that part of the rule would be superfluous) and thus non-cube puzzles are not allowed to have any logos at all.


----------



## TMOY (Nov 12, 2013)

Stefan said:


> No. It's not useless. It for example prevents recognition advantages caused by logos on corners.


I was talking about the "only one logo" part, not about the "only on centers" part.




Stefan said:


> More "intelligent" would likely also mean more complicated.



So what ? sI have already sais(in another thread) that I was against oversimplification. Simpler is always likely to mean more arbitrary.



Stefan said:


> Maybe you can somehow cover all possible scenarios, but I think the regulations are long and complicated enough. I welcome a reasonable short simple rule like this.
> 
> Btw, it's unclear to me whether/how this rule applies to Square-1.


The short simple rule you are welcoming is unclear to you ? Well, let's replace it by a long complicated one, it will probably suit you better


----------



## rudra (Nov 20, 2013)

What does it mean by "may have a logo or must have at most one logo" ? Does it mean puzzles without logo are competition illegal?


----------



## JasonK (Nov 20, 2013)

rudra said:


> What does it mean by "*may* have a logo or must have *at most* one logo" ? Does it mean puzzles without logo are competition illegal?



Maybe you should read what it says.


----------



## rudra (Nov 20, 2013)

JasonK said:


> Maybe you should read what it says.



Of course I read it several times. I would not have posted it here unless I'm having problem understanding.


----------



## JasonK (Nov 20, 2013)

rudra said:


> Of course I read it several times. I would not have posted it here unless I'm having problem understanding.



"May have a logo" = It can have one, but it doesn't have to.
"At most one" = One or fewer = One or zero.


----------



## rudra (Nov 20, 2013)

JasonK said:


> "May have a logo" = It can have one, but it doesn't have to.
> "At most one" = One or fewer = One or zero.



Thanks for clearing that up.


----------



## Logical101 (Nov 20, 2013)

rudra said:


> Thanks for clearing that up.



all i can say is lol


----------



## rudra (Nov 20, 2013)

Logical101 said:


> all i can say is lol



You may laugh. It seems I'm not as gifted as you in english.


----------



## Logical101 (Nov 20, 2013)

rudra said:


> You may laugh. It seems I'm not as gifted as you in english.



I am sincerely sorry I did not mean to offend you


----------



## rudra (Nov 20, 2013)

Logical101 said:


> I am sincerely sorry I did not mean to offend you



None taken. It's all right.


----------



## Lucas Garron (Nov 20, 2013)

rudra said:


> You may laugh. It seems I'm not as gifted as you in english.



We actually thought about the wording of 3l carefully, and decided to keep it. It's good to know if "at most one logo" is confusing speakers who are not comfortable in English (in particular, considering that comfortable enough the phrasing is slightly unusual for native speakers, too).


----------



## Deleted member 19792 (Nov 20, 2013)

Lucas Garron said:


> We actually thought about the wording of 3l carefully, and decided to keep it. It's good to know if "at most one logo" is confusing speakers who are not comfortable in English (in particular, considering that comfortable enough the phrasing is slightly unusual for native speakers, too).



There should be an exception for Square-1. If you were to cover the logos, you can still recognize the pieces from the front. (For those who don't really want to take the logos off)


----------



## kcl (Nov 20, 2013)

strakerak said:


> There should be an exception for Square-1. If you were to cover the logos, you can still recognize the pieces from the front. (For those who don't really want to take the logos off)



Agreed. Because square 1 never rotates, 2 logos provides no advantage.


----------



## TDM (Nov 20, 2013)

kclejeune said:


> 2 logos provides no advantage


Only if they're both on the E-slice pieces.


----------



## Deleted member 19792 (Nov 20, 2013)

Well you can't make an F, B, or S turn, but you can make an E turn. 

Right. If you have a logo on the top face, then there should be no exception.


----------



## Michael Womack (Nov 20, 2013)

I remember at My last comp they made everyone to remove the Dayan Logo from there Dayan Megaminxs why is that?


----------



## DrKorbin (Nov 20, 2013)

Michael Womack said:


> I remember at My last comp they made everyone to remove the Dayan Logo from there Dayan Megaminxs why is that?



Probably bkoz 3l allows logos only for cube puzzles, not for megaminx 
(Well, that is formal following of the rule)


----------



## Michael Womack (Nov 20, 2013)

DrKorbin said:


> Probably bkoz 3l allows logos only for cube puzzles, not for megaminx
> (Well, that is formal following of the rule)



Oh ok thanks.


----------



## TMOY (Nov 20, 2013)

DrKorbin said:


> Probably bkoz 3l allows logos only for cube puzzles, not for megaminx
> (Well, that is formal following of the rule)



IMHO it's rather because the Dayan logo can be felt when you put the finger on the center. At least it looks like a much better reason than that "only for cube puzzles" thing, which would just be a completely silly and psychorigid interpreataion of the rules.

That being said, I've never seen anybody complaining about that logo at any of the comps I've attended so far.


----------



## DrKorbin (Nov 20, 2013)

TMOY said:


> IMHO it's rather because the Dayan logo can be felt when you put the finger on the center.



Then why are logos allowed for cubes in the first place? I can feel a face with the dayan logo too, but I always see either this face or opposite, so the logo feeling gives me no information. Well, except for bld.
Same with megaminx - you can see either logo face or opposite in most cases.


----------



## kcl (Nov 21, 2013)

I did two rounds of 2x2 with a logo on a corner and had no problems.


----------



## Michael Womack (Nov 21, 2013)

kclejeune said:


> I did two rounds of 2x2 with a logo on a corner and had no problems.



Well where else would you put the Logo?


----------



## kcl (Nov 21, 2013)

Michael Womack said:


> Well where else would you put the Logo?



You would use an invisible one


----------



## Michael Womack (Nov 21, 2013)

kclejeune said:


> You would use an invisible one



that's true.


----------



## mark49152 (Nov 22, 2013)

Lucas Garron said:


> We actually thought about the wording of 3l carefully, and decided to keep it. It's good to know if "at most one logo" is confusing speakers who are not comfortable in English (in particular, considering that comfortable enough the phrasing is slightly unusual for native speakers, too).


As a native English speaker I also find the wording a little uncomfortable and can see why confusion would arise. "At most one" is clear but the presence of the words "must have" imply that a logo is required, even if when carefully read that's not the case, and it would be a silly requirement anyway. It would be clearer to say "no more than one logo is permitted".


----------



## cubernya (Nov 22, 2013)

mark49152 said:


> As a native English speaker I also find the wording a little uncomfortable and can see why confusion would arise. "At most one" is clear but the presence of the words "must have" imply that a logo is required, even if when carefully read that's not the case, and it would be a silly requirement anyway. It would be clearer to say "no more than one logo is permitted".



Would changing must to may fix the problem? A cube may have at most one logo? Minor change, but could be significant


----------



## rudra (Nov 22, 2013)

mark49152 said:


> As a native English speaker I also find the wording a little uncomfortable and can see why confusion would arise. "At most one" is clear but the presence of the words "must have" imply that a logo is required, even if when carefully read that's not the case, and it would be a silly requirement anyway. It would be clearer to say "no more than one logo is permitted".



exactly where I got confused.


----------



## Deleted member 19792 (Nov 22, 2013)

Regarding a past comment about Megaminx logos, I DID feel the Dayan Logo. If I had a custom logo (On my SS) You could not feel it.

Oh, and for MoYu cubes, you can feel their logo as well (Bad for BLD)


----------



## kcl (Nov 22, 2013)

strakerak said:


> Regarding a past comment about Megaminx logos, I DID feel the Dayan Logo. If I had a custom logo (On my SS) You could not feel it.
> 
> Oh, and for MoYu cubes, you can feel their logo as well (Bad for BLD)



Lol my Moyu logos wear off within a month. I beat up stickers. A lot.


----------

