# Do you think that 15 puzzle should be a WCA event?



## CubesN'StuffOfficial (May 31, 2021)

I really enjoy 15 puzzle do you think it should be in the WCA?


----------



## minxer293 (May 31, 2021)

15 puzzle in my opinion is too similar to events like Magic, it isn't a twisty puzzle and the WCA is meant for twisty puzzles.

"The WCA governs competitions for mechanical puzzles that are operated by twisting groups of pieces, commonly known as “twisty puzzles (9a)”


----------



## qwr (Jun 1, 2021)

No, it's not a twisty puzzle.
Clock isn't either but I guess it's just left in for historical reasons.


----------



## CodingCuber (Jun 1, 2021)

I love 15 puzzle, don't get me wrong. I solve it all the time. However, seeing as it's not a twisty puzzle, I don't think it should be in the WCA.


----------



## xyzzy (Jun 1, 2021)

It wouldn't be an entirely terrible event candidate if considered on its own merits. It does fit the mould of "combinatorial puzzle with discretely moving parts", even if said motion isn't twisting. (How much scope creep would the WCA be subjecting itself to if it added 15 puzzle? Not all that much – what other non-twisty combinatorial puzzles can you even think of? Are they anywhere as popular as 15 puzzle?)

To my knowledge, the main drawbacks to making it an official event are long scrambles and very short solving time at the top level (Ben has a 5.4x ao100, what the h*ck).

But of course, many people dislike the idea of adding 15 puzzle for more superficial reasons (ahem the three posts above mine), so actually adding it would probably lead to a fair amount of backlash, and _this_ would be the strongest argument against adding 15 puzzle.


----------



## Cubing Forever (Jun 1, 2021)

qwr said:


> No, it's not a twisty puzzle.
> Clock isn't either but I guess it's just left in for historical reasons.


clock is a twisty puzzle lol


----------



## Filipe Teixeira (Jun 1, 2021)

oof


----------



## BenChristman1 (Jun 1, 2021)

Filipe Teixeira said:


> oof
> View attachment 15893


@zzoomer gave a sympathy vote lol


----------



## Ben Whitmore (Jun 1, 2021)

xyzzy said:


> To my knowledge, the main drawbacks to making it an official event are long scrambles and very short solving time at the top level (Ben has a 5.4x ao100, what the h*ck).



Scrambles aren't particularly long, they're only about as long as 4x4 scrambles.


----------



## DuckubingCuber347 (Jun 1, 2021)

Ben Whitmore said:


> Scrambles aren't particularly long, they're only about as long as 4x4 scrambles.


The solving is *much *faster. The puzzle's very fun but it's kind of like clock in the sense that it's super easy, there's not a whole bunch of different ways to solve it, it would be controversial, etc, etc. It just doesn't belong in the WCA. If your going to add another event it might as well be something with a large following and something not highly controversial like, ahem


----------



## teboecubes (Jun 1, 2021)

Thecubingcuber347 said:


> If your going to add another event it might as well be something with a large following and something not highly controversial like, ahem
> View attachment 15896


_and _preferably a more rubik's-cube-like twisty puzzle, instead of a sliding puzzle


----------



## abunickabhi (Jun 1, 2021)

I enjoy 15 puzzle more digitally rather than the Qiyi wooden puzzle.

Since digital software of N slide puzzle is more popular in the speedsliding community, it cannot be added to the WCA.


----------



## LBr (Jun 1, 2021)

I dont think it should be added as its not a twisty puzzle and it isnt mehodical


----------



## SlowerCuber (Jun 1, 2021)

+ It's a cool event to watch
- It's not a twisty puzzle, or more precisely, it's a 2D puzzle, not a 3D spatial puzzle. (Clock belongs to this category as well)


----------



## minxer293 (Jun 2, 2021)

qwr said:


> Clock isn't either but I guess it's just left in for historical reasons.


The clocks twist as you push or pull the gears.

Not a twisty puzzle I guess?


----------



## ruffleduck (Jun 2, 2021)

minxer293 said:


> The clocks twist as you push or pull the gears.
> 
> Not a twisty puzzle I guess?


----------



## minxer293 (Jun 2, 2021)

zzoomer said:


> View attachment 15910


WCA says differently:


----------



## ruffleduck (Jun 2, 2021)

minxer293 said:


> WCA says differently:
> View attachment 15912


They didn't mention clock, also "commonly" which implies that they aren't always called "twisty puzzles"


----------



## WarriorCatCuber (Jun 2, 2021)

"twisting" groups of pieces.

At least clock has _something_ that somewhat twists. The 15-puzzle doesn't twist anything at all, you're moving around some squares


----------



## ruffleduck (Jun 2, 2021)

WarriorCatCuber said:


> The 15-puzzle doesn't twist anything at all, you're moving around some squares


Isn't that what a Rubik's cube does too?


----------



## minxer293 (Jun 2, 2021)

zzoomer said:


> They didn't mention clock, also "commonly" which implies that they aren't always called "twisty puzzles"


They also didn't mention any of the other 16 events besides 3x3.


----------



## ruffleduck (Jun 2, 2021)

minxer293 said:


> They also didn't mention any of the other 16 events besides 3x3.


You ignored my second point (which was the main one), also I think we can agree that all WCA puzzles (except clock) are very similar to 3x3?


----------



## minxer293 (Jun 2, 2021)

zzoomer said:


> You ignored my second point (which was the main one), also I think we can agree that all WCA puzzles (except clock) are very similar to 3x3?


The clock's gears twist around an axis. The cube's pieces also twist around an axis. How is it not similar to a 3x3?

Based on your logic, someone in a wheelchair isn't human because they can't walk.


----------



## WarriorCatCuber (Jun 2, 2021)

zzoomer said:


> Isn't that what a Rubik's cube does too?


Yes, but nothing is moving in a circle on the 15 puzzle


----------



## ruffleduck (Jun 2, 2021)

minxer293 said:


> The clock's gears twist around an axis. The cube's pieces also twist around an axis. How is it not similar to a 3x3?


No colors. Also, there are pins you can press.


> Based on your logic, someone in a wheelchair isn't human because they can't walk.


----------



## Filipe Teixeira (Jun 2, 2021)

minxer293 said:


> Based on your logic, *someone* in a wheelchair isn't human because they can't walk.


mayb it's an alien in a wheelchair


----------



## ruffleduck (Jun 2, 2021)

WarriorCatCuber said:


> Yes, but nothing is moving in a circle on the 15 puzzle


Why must it be in a circle? Do clock pins going up and down look like it's going in a circle?


----------



## minxer293 (Jun 2, 2021)

Filipe Teixeira said:


> mayb it's an alien in a wheelchair


----------



## minxer293 (Jun 2, 2021)

zzoomer said:


> No colors. Also, there are pins you can press.


The definition of a twisty puzzle never says that it needs to have colors, it just needs to have some piece twist around an axis, which clock does.

The pins are their own little thing in themselves, but extra additions still don't detract from it being a twisty puzzle.



zzoomer said:


> View attachment 15926


How is this a false analogy? You say that Clock isn't a twisty puzzle because it doesn't have colors, and has pins.
My analogy that you're logic means that someone in a wheelchair isn't human isn't false, it fully explains your views.

So, clock isn't a twisty puzzle because it lost something (colors), and gained something (pins).

Because of the above, a person in a wheelchair isn't human because it lost something (the ability to walk), and gained something (a chair to help with day-to-day tasks).


----------



## ruffleduck (Jun 2, 2021)

minxer293 said:


> The definition of a twisty puzzle never says that it needs to have colors, it just needs to have some piece twist around an axis, which clock does.


The definition specifically says that clock isn't a twisty puzzle.



The clock doesn't have any layers, which all other twisty puzzles have.



Oh, and the WCA website never says whether clock is a twisty puzzle or not.


----------



## minxer293 (Jun 2, 2021)

zzoomer said:


> The definition specifically says that clock isn't a twisty puzzle.
> 
> View attachment 15929


Ok, guess you can trust a bunch of teenagers editing a wiki if you want, rather than the organization that actually determines if it is or isn't.


zzoomer said:


> The clock doesn't have any layers, which all other twisty puzzles have.
> 
> View attachment 15930


See above.


zzoomer said:


> Oh, and the WCA website never says whether clock is a twisty puzzle or not.


It doesn't state if any other event is a twisty puzzle besides 3x3 either.


----------



## rubik2005 (Jun 2, 2021)

What type of puzzle would clock be considered? If it didn't have a category and it has enough similarities to a twisty puzzle, maybe they thought it would be a good addition to the WCA.

The 15 puzzle on the other hand is a Klotski/sliding puzzle, which is completely different.


----------



## minxer293 (Jun 2, 2021)

rubik2005 said:


> maybe they thought it would be a good addition to the WCA.


People have stated that clock was probably added just because it was manufactured by Rubik's, which is probably true.

This isn't a reason to remove it though.


----------



## rubik2005 (Jun 2, 2021)

minxer293 said:


> People have stated that clock was probably added just because it was manufactured by Rubik's, which is probably true.
> 
> This isn't a reason to remove it though.


Maybe. I'm not arguing about clock though.


----------



## ruffleduck (Jun 2, 2021)

> It doesn't state if any other event is a twisty puzzle besides 3x3 either.


Good point. My new argument: only 3x3 is a twisty puzzle.


----------



## minxer293 (Jun 2, 2021)

zzoomer said:


> Good point. My new argument: only 3x3 is a twisty puzzle.


Better than your argument that clock isn't.


----------



## Mike Hughey (Jun 3, 2021)

minxer293 said:


> Ok, guess you can trust a bunch of teenagers editing a wiki if you want, rather than the organization that actually determines if it is or isn't.


Actually, looking at the wiki history, this is specifically one cuber (not sure if teenager or not) - a person named Bryce Springfield (who has apparently been to one WCA competition) added the text "Twisty puzzles do not include the Rubik's Clock, 15 puzzle, or related puzzles." It was the only edit. A strange edit for someone to make - looks to me like someone was trying to win an argument.


----------



## PCCuber (Jun 3, 2021)

Mike Hughey said:


> not sure if teenager or not)


He was 15 or 16 at the time of writing it, so yeah.


----------



## Future (Jun 3, 2021)

maby they should do a version of it but instead of the numbers there r the rubik's cube coulours and they neeed to be in an order ex: white red blue orange green yellow


----------



## DuckubingCuber347 (Jun 3, 2021)

Even if there was enough reasons for it to join the WCA it would still be a very unpopular decision. There's far to few people to support it, the scrambles would add a lot of time and trouble to the comp and you wouldn't have very many people doing it. It's so different from other WCA events, even clock. Maybe it could be an unofficial event, but it would be an horrible official event.


----------



## Kit Clement (Jun 3, 2021)

It's not worth arguing about the definition of a twisty puzzle as if it's a pre-determined definition. The idea of twisty puzzle is brought about by this community, and we can decide for ourselves what should and should not be a twisty puzzle. Acting like any definition you find (especially one on a wiki page) is some sort of ultimate truth is incredibly ignorant, and honestly, whether clock is or is not a twisty puzzle doesn't even matter. It's part of the WCA, and if you want to argue that it should/shouldn't be a WCA event or that it does/doesn't fit in with other events, make arguments based on the merits of the puzzle, not based on some definition you found.


----------



## minxer293 (Jun 3, 2021)

Mike Hughey said:


> Actually, looking at the wiki history, this is specifically one cuber (not sure if teenager or not) - a person named Bryce Springfield (who has apparently been to one WCA competition) added the text "Twisty puzzles do not include the Rubik's Clock, 15 puzzle, or related puzzles." It was the only edit. A strange edit for someone to make - looks to me like someone was trying to win an argument.


I don’t edit the Speedsolving wiki haha


----------



## Samajor (Jun 4, 2021)

No, because I think that it has nothing to do with cubing


----------



## DuckubingCuber347 (Jun 4, 2021)

Samajor said:


> No, because I think that it has nothing to do with cubing


Refer to what @Kit Clement said. It's really just subjective, according to Wikipedia "*Speedcubing* (also known as *speedsolving*, or just *cubing*) is a sport involving solving a variety of combination puzzles, the most famous being the 3x3x3 puzzle or Rubik's Cube, as quickly as possible."

We are trying to solve a "combination puzzle". Well what is a combination puzzle?

If doing a fractional amount of research we find that "A *combination puzzle*, also known as a *sequential move puzzle*, is a puzzle which consists of a set of pieces which can be manipulated into different combinations by a group of operations. Many such puzzles are of a polyhedral shape, and consist of multiple layers of pieces along each many axes which can rotate independently of each other. "

Notice it say "many", it does not say all. looking at examples we find many we associate with "cubing", Pyraminx, 2x2, 3x3, Megaminx, etc. We also find puzzles that do not belong in the WCA like Pyraminx Crystal, Void cube, and so forth. Upon further inspection of the page you come across "2-dimensional" puzzles. While these do not consist of multiple layers we already know that combination puzzles are not restricted to that. Under 2-D puzzles we see the Fifteen puzzle.

Looping back we have Fifteen puzzle = Combination puzzle = What cubing is about solving.

When we cubers think of "cubing" we will associate with what we're used to or, the "norm". But it does still include less conventional puzzles.

Now, I am in no way saying it should be added I am totally against it as you can see in other posts. But what I *am *saying is that saying, "No, because I think that it has nothing to do with cubing." Is very naïve and totally false, just because you feel a way does not make it so. If that were true Clock would probably be removed as an event because many "feel" it doesn't belong.


----------



## oneshot (Jun 6, 2021)

FWIW, I think it’s a good idea. I could imagine magnetized ones too. BLD 15 puzzle would have the same length scramble with longer solve times.


----------



## BenChristman1 (Jun 6, 2021)

oneshot said:


> FWIW, I think it’s a good idea. I could imagine magnetized ones too. BLD 15 puzzle would have the same length scramble with longer solve times.


Qiyi actually already made a magnetic 15 Puzzle.









QiYi 15 Klotski Puzzle Lite


The QiYi 15 Klotski Puzzle Lite is just like the original QiYi 15 Klotski Puzzle, it has magnetized pieces that make solving quicker and easier. But this one is much lighter, making it easier to hold and solve!




www.thecubicle.com


----------



## BenChristman1 (Jun 7, 2021)

Thecubingcuber347 said:


> Would the normal or the lite be better?


I have the normal one, but the lite version seems to be the only one that TheCubicle sells now.


----------

