# What do you think in your opinion is the most useless WCA event.



## rock1313 (Mar 15, 2011)

I just want to know.


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## Tall5001 (Mar 15, 2011)

feet all the way because it is stupid and useless they should add skewb!


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## rock1313 (Mar 15, 2011)

Tall5001 said:


> feet all the way because it is stupid and useless they should add skewb!


 
I agree with you with feet,

but don't even mention skewb. I HATE THAT PUZZLE!!!


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## Julian (Mar 15, 2011)

Magic and master magic.
EDIT: not saying they wouldn't be fun (dunno, never tried), but I just don't like the idea of the same soultion every time.


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## Carrot (Mar 15, 2011)

3x3x3


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## DavidWoner (Mar 15, 2011)

Surprised you didn't include 4bld/5bld/multibld in the poll, I think a lot more people would choose one of those.


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## MAHTI-ANSSI (Mar 15, 2011)

6x6x6 and 7x7x7


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## aronpm (Mar 15, 2011)

3x3.

So boring.


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## Dene (Mar 15, 2011)

Magic of course. There is no debate about this. Anyone that wants to debate against this is wrong.


EDIT: due to circumstances that have been brought to my awareness, I would like to point out that the above statements were intended as a joke based on recent activities on the forums. I do vote for magic though.


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## Jedi5412 (Mar 15, 2011)

lol i broke my magic on the first day it got it so i cant debate about that XD


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## MaeLSTRoM (Mar 15, 2011)

3x3x3 With Feet
it just looks so stupid while watching it and also is just the same as all the other 3x3x3 variants, but is participated in less.


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## irontwig (Mar 15, 2011)

Master Magic, as stupid as Magic, just takes a bit more time to do.


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## amostay2004 (Mar 15, 2011)

Magic and Master Magic are the dumbest events but I believe they burn relatively more calories than the other events so there's a tiny bit of usefulness in there ;P


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## TMOY (Mar 15, 2011)

Registration, Lunch and Winning Ceremony. They must be really unpopular events, although they are scheduled at every competition I can't find any times for them in the WCA database.


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## Robert-Y (Mar 15, 2011)

Any event in which the puzzle itself has too many combinations for people to memorise a solution for each combination, is alright with me, as long the event doesn't take up too much time at competitions.


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## d4m4s74 (Mar 15, 2011)

I'd go for master magic. I mean, It's just magic with a slightly longer single algorythm.


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## The Bloody Talon (Mar 15, 2011)

Julian said:


> Magic and master magic.
> EDIT: not saying they wouldn't be fun (dunno, never tried), but I just don't like the idea of the same soultion every time.



i agree

edit: i changed my mind, magic and master magic events are the only record that faz doesn't have.
meaning, other events are useless.. 
lol


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## Godmil (Mar 15, 2011)

Since Magic is stupidly quick, would it not be better then to scrap it and keep master magic?
I don't mind either of them though, the only event I actively don't like the idea of is Feet.


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## aridus (Mar 15, 2011)

I think they are all ok, really. Even Magic. The Magic seems a little silly to me because it's so easy, but I have to admit it IS funny to essentially throw the thing in the air with a bit of a spastic twist and it falls down solved. 

I think having something for everybody is kinda cool.

Edit: also I may be biased because the Magic was the thing I was fast at when I was a kid (like, when they were new and stuff), until it broke anyway haha.


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## Escher (Mar 15, 2011)

They all suck


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## Zubon (Mar 15, 2011)

Magic. I just don't understand the enjoyment of performing one rehearsed solve over and over again. Why can't they "scramble" the magic and the solver has to solve it to either one of the two solved states? That would at least be more interesting.


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## stoic (Mar 15, 2011)

Magic. Don't really see the point.


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## Godmil (Mar 15, 2011)

Zubon said:


> Magic. I just don't understand the enjoyment of performing one rehearsed solve over and over again. Why can't they "scramble" the magic and the solver has to solve it to either one of the two solved states? That would at least be more interesting.


 
Magic does seem like a wasted puzzle. It seems to me to be like having a 5x5x5 and all you're supposed to do it put it into and out of the checkerboard pattern.


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## vcuber13 (Mar 15, 2011)

magic then 2x2

also feet solving is basically no different than OH


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## aridus (Mar 15, 2011)

ellwd said:


> Magic. Don't really see the point.


Well, if you think about it, the fact that it is fast actually increases competition in the sense of speedsolving. 

I look at it something like this:
Magic = drag racing
Master Magic = NASCAR
2x2 = MotoGP
3x3/4x4 = F1
Larger cubes = Le Mans
OH = drifting competition
Foot/blind = stunt competition

Heh.


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## Mike Crozack (Mar 15, 2011)

Solving with feet. The competition is so low because theres no point
might as well get rid of it and add skewb, that puzzles where its at


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## uberCuber (Mar 15, 2011)

I am voting for 3x3 Feet because I know it is the only official event I will never ever practice. I don't have a Magic or Master Magic yet, but I can see myself getting those sometime. I just like the feeling of seeing a really low time on the timer, regardless of what the puzzle is 
Hence a certain thing written in my sig :3.


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## Yes We Can! (Mar 15, 2011)

Magic. It requires no thinking skill (you know what I mean...).
I'm not saying it can't be fun. It's just really useless. (still, I used to practice :/)

Many people do magic because it's just a quick event and easy to get good at it. I only used to do magic, because back then it was the easiest NR to get. And, as said above, it's not really skill-requiring (well, in the sense of dexterity it is).


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## Antcuber (Mar 15, 2011)

NONONO 
you guys are all wrong magic is in my top 5 with 2x2 3x3 4x4 pyraminx gah its a totally awesome event!!! 

feet solving sucks


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## sa11297 (Mar 15, 2011)

if so many people hate feet and want to replace it with skewb, then we should make a petition or something to change it


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## Kenneth (Mar 15, 2011)

7x7x7 and 6x6x6 are the worst events, solving is not harder than 4x4, just more pieces, too many, takes half the day.

Just to scramble those *****es...

Magic is just the competitors problem (and the judge, but we usally let them judge each other so also that goes), does not steal from the rest of the comp, so there is no reason to remove those.


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## MagicYio (Mar 15, 2011)

I know tht a lot of people choose for magic because it's the same thing every time. But what if people like that? For example, I like it because of that (the same for master magic of course).

And the question was what the most useless event was. But if people like an event, it isn't useless. I mean, most of the competitors go for feet because it's just fun. So basically, not a single event is useless if people want to compete in it.


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## MaeLSTRoM (Mar 15, 2011)

sa11297 said:


> if so many people hate feet and want to replace it with skewb, then we should make a petition or something to change it


 
I agree, but it would have to be put on the WCA forums. any volunteers?


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## Godmil (Mar 15, 2011)

Cubing while hula hooping on a pogo may be very fun, but that doesn't mean it should be an official event. I think it's fare to say something is useless if it doesn't add anything that isn't in existing events - probably why the vast majority of twisty puzzle designs aren't events (cause they're not really that different from standard 3x3's - or such like). Also just because something is already an event doesn't mean it's exempt from scrutiny. Kenneth has an interesting point in that 6 and 7 cubes aren't really any different to solve than 4 or 5 - they just take longer. They would seem to fit into the probable reason why Square-2, teraminx, gigaminx, and petaminx aren't official events.


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## MagicYio (Mar 15, 2011)

Godmil said:


> Everything he said


 
I understand what you mean, but solving with one hand or solving with your feet aren't that crazy idea's. Just as 4BLD or 5BLD, except that they are very difficult. 
(Ok, feet might be an unusual thing to do, but it's just very different. I don't think they should scrap feet.)

And I agree on the 6 and 7. But I find it weird that there isn't a prof pyraminx event.


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## Kirjava (Mar 15, 2011)

feet and bigbld

I wouldn't mind them staying if we could add events that people wanted to do aswell.


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## freshcuber (Mar 15, 2011)

6x6 and 7x7 are similar but not the same as 4x4 and 5x5. The smaller cube reduction is a joke. It's so insanely simple that my friend who had never seen a 4x4 solved it intuitively without any help from me. He could already do 3x3 and dodged parities but still, it's easy. The larger cubes add extra orbits and other challenges. A lot of people enjoy larger cubes than smaller ones. 

For the people making the argument that Magic and Master Magic shouldn't be events because they're so fast then we should get rid of 2x2 as well since that's a fast puzzle too.


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## sa11297 (Mar 15, 2011)

MaeLSTRoM said:


> I agree, but it would have to be put on the WCA forums. any volunteers?


 
well i would but... I dont have a profile so how would it look that on the first day of signing up I'm trying to erase an event? and I haven't been to a competition yet so somebody else that is respected in the community should do it. otherwise it will be ignored.


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## Bryan (Mar 15, 2011)

MagicYio said:


> But I find it weird that there isn't a prof pyraminx event.


 
Really? The puzzles been commercially available for maybe 45 days and you think it's weird there's not an event?


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## amostay2004 (Mar 15, 2011)

Useless =/= removed, in my opinion. I think magic and master magic are useless but they hardly take up time in competition and is good for warmups, and some people do focus on practising them so I don't think they should be removed.


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## Kirjava (Mar 15, 2011)

freshcuber said:


> For the people making the argument that Magic and Master Magic shouldn't be events because they're so fast then we should get rid of 2x2 as well since that's a fast puzzle too.


 
What people?


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## freshcuber (Mar 15, 2011)

Godmil said:


> Since Magic is stupidly quick, would it not be better then to scrap it and keep master magic?
> I don't mind either of them though, the only event I actively don't like the idea of is Feet.


 
There's one.


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## Godmil (Mar 15, 2011)

Ah no, I didn't say they should be scrapped because they're quick, I said if you were going to scrap one (due to them both being almost exactly the same) then it would be better to get rid of the easier one.


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## freshcuber (Mar 15, 2011)

By that logic all cubes smaller than 4x4 should be scrapped as well.


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## clincr (Mar 15, 2011)

Magic because it is not even a puzzle. It is more similar to speedstacking that to cubing.


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## MaeLSTRoM (Mar 15, 2011)

clincr said:


> Magic because it is not even a puzzle.



It is the first time if you try it intuitively (Is that spelt right??)
But on another note, there has only been 272 feet competitors ever. Not really that many.


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## Cyrus C. (Mar 15, 2011)

MaeLSTRoM said:


> It is the first time if you try it intuitively (Is that spelt right??)


 
Irrelevant. When you compete in Magic in competition it will not be the first time.


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## MaeLSTRoM (Mar 15, 2011)

Cyrus C. said:


> Irrelevant. When you compete in Magic in competition it will not be the first time.


 
True, but the point was that its still a puzzle.


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## uberCuber (Mar 15, 2011)

MaeLSTRoM said:


> It is the first time if you try it intuitively (Is that *spelt* right??)



I lol'ed



> But on another note, there has only been 272 feet competitors ever. Not really that many.


 
There have been far less competitors in 4x4 and 5x5 bld. Why do you mention feet and not 4 and 5 BLD?


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## StachuK1992 (Mar 15, 2011)

Magics, 2x2.


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## Kirjava (Mar 15, 2011)

freshcuber said:


> By that logic all cubes smaller than 4x4 should be scrapped as well.


 
***** loves to make assumptions, eh?


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## freshcuber (Mar 15, 2011)

Did I misinterpret Godmil? He said to get rid of magic because it was the simpler of the two. Well 2x2 is simpler than 3x3 and 3x3 is simpler than 4x4. If we were to continue with that logic we wouldn't do 3BLD or 3x3 multi it would all be big cube BLD and big cube multi since 3BLD is simpler.


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## Kirjava (Mar 15, 2011)

freshcuber said:


> He said to get rid of magic because it was the simpler of the two.


 
Are you sure?


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## irontwig (Mar 15, 2011)

Who's the bastard who voted FMC? >: (


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## MaeLSTRoM (Mar 15, 2011)

When will the added/removed events for this year get announced? Also, when do the new regs come out?

EDIT: ^Lol


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## amostay2004 (Mar 15, 2011)

What Godmil is saying is, since people are not liking the magic events and suggesting them to be removed, and that if we're going to remove one of them, it should be magic because it's an easier version of master magic. This does not relate in any way to other events.

At least that's how I interpret it.


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## freshcuber (Mar 15, 2011)

Godmil said:


> Ah no, I didn't say they should be scrapped because they're quick, I said if you were going to scrap one (due to them both being almost exactly the same) then it would be better to get rid of the easier one.


 
He said easier I said simpler. They're synonymous.


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## MaeLSTRoM (Mar 15, 2011)

freshcuber said:


> He said easier I said simpler. They're synonymous.



Not necessarily true though. For example, a method could be hard to learn and execute but easy to understand


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## Kirjava (Mar 15, 2011)

How are you still oblivious even after it's been explained to you?

Like, wow.


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## MagicYio (Mar 15, 2011)

Bryan said:


> Really? The puzzles been commercially available for maybe 45 days and you think it's weird there's not an event?


 
I didn't know that. But what I meant with this, is that they weren't commercially available some time ago, so that there could've been an event for it. I mean, because of the Rubik's cube there are 7x7's now, and the megaminx has it's damn petaminx. Pyraminx is just so alone. I assume that this is the same reason the kilominx isn't an event; it is still too unknown and too unavailable (I think, correct me if I'm wrong). But they both have potential to get there. Just as the skewb, there must come a skewb-event.


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## MaeLSTRoM (Mar 15, 2011)

MagicYio said:


> I didn't know that. But what I meant with this, is that they weren't commercially available some time ago, so that there could've been an event for it. I mean, because of the Rubik's cube there are 7x7's now, and the megaminx has it's damn petaminx. Pyraminx is just so alone. I assume that this is the same reason the kilominx isn't an event; it is still too unknown and too unavailable (I think, correct me if I'm wrong). But they both have potential to get there. Just as the skewb, there must come a skewb-event.



I agree with this, though I think Gigaminx will probably become official before kilominx/teraminx/prof.pyra.

Also, yes there should be skewb as an official event


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## MagicYio (Mar 15, 2011)

MaeLSTRoM said:


> I agree with this, though I think Gigaminx will probably become official before kilominx/teraminx/prof.pyra.
> 
> Also, yes there should be skewb as an official event


 
I think the gigaminx takes too long for it to become an event. Although I don't know how fast people will be when it actually becomes one.


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## uberCuber (Mar 15, 2011)

MagicYio said:


> I think the gigaminx takes too long for it to become an event. Although I don't know how fast people will be when it actually becomes one.


 
bogyo has done sub-8 on video


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## Vlad (Mar 15, 2011)

Julian said:


> Magic and master magic.
> EDIT: not saying they wouldn't be fun (dunno, never tried), but I just don't like the idea of the same soultion every time.


 
I agree 100%.


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## masterofthebass (Mar 15, 2011)

uberCuber said:


> bogyo has done sub-8 on video


 
ok so like 3 people will be able to compete. that is a terrific reason to add an event.


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## RyanReese09 (Mar 15, 2011)

Clock.
Then 2x2x2.


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## maxim1914 (Mar 15, 2011)

Zubon said:


> Magic. I just don't understand the enjoyment of performing one rehearsed solve over and over again. Why can't they "scramble" the magic and the solver has to solve it to either one of the two solved states? That would at least be more interesting.


 
i completely agree, that would definitely make it more of a puzzle and less of who can do the same moves the fastest.


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## Vinny (Mar 15, 2011)

Feet or 2x2.


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## aronpm (Mar 15, 2011)

Feet is an awesome event, why all the hate?



uberCuber said:


> I lol'ed


He spelt "spelt" correctly.


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## Rpotts (Mar 15, 2011)

ryan 2x2 doesn't suck, you just suck at it.


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## yomaster (Mar 15, 2011)

3x3 fewest moves

Who cares if you can do it in the least amount of moves? It doesn't matter as long as you're fast!


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## Kynit (Mar 15, 2011)

yomaster said:


> Who cares if you can do it in the least amount of moves?


Try everyone who does FMC, maybe?

I see Magic and Master Magic very similarly to speedstacking. I don't mind it, but I don't think they're nearly as interesting as any other event in WCA. 

Second choice would be 7x7. I think anything bigger than 6x6 starts getting very redundant. Even 6x6 seems boring for all but the elite.


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## Cyrus C. (Mar 15, 2011)

yomaster said:


> 3x3 fewest moves
> 
> Who cares if you can do it in the least amount of moves? It doesn't matter as long as you're fast!


 
Who cares if you can do it fast? It doesn't matter as long as you can do it in the least amount of moves!


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## MagicYio (Mar 15, 2011)

yomaster said:


> 3x3 fewest moves
> 
> Who cares if you can do it in the least amount of moves? It doesn't matter as long as you're fast!


 
Well, it matters for the people competing. But I agree, I'd say FM, 6 and 7. And maybe clock.


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## Elbeasto94 (Mar 15, 2011)

Here is my argument of why feet isn't stupid. Feet is meant as a fun event, and the point of cubing is to have fun isn't it! And it is very rare, most competitions do not have it except for nationals (in USA) and other major competitions. It isn't like it prevents other events from taking place, for instance I would rather a competition have 4x4 speedsolve than have magic or master magic (yes, I have seen it happen).


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## MaeLSTRoM (Mar 15, 2011)

Yes but teamBLD and Skewb are also fun, so are many events, but I think that event should be chosen on popularity, so Feet could be replaces with something done more unofficialy (teamBLD/Skewb etc.) but still be done unofficialy.
Also:


> I would rather a competition have 4x4 speedsolve than have magic or master magic (yes, I have seen it happen).


Really??!?!?


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## RyanReese09 (Mar 15, 2011)

Rpotts said:


> ryan 2x2 doesn't suck, you just suck at it.


 
No, I'm pretty sure it sucks. I hate sprints. I'm more of a long distance person.

Why do you feel like you have the authority to tell me my opinion is wrong?


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## maggot (Mar 15, 2011)

did we not already have this discussion? let me recap. 

2x2 removed=> pro: event based on luck of scramble for fast times, potential skewed results. 
con: quick event, much interest, and while lucky scrambles do happen, the fast people are still on top. 
magic/master removed=> pro: not really considered a competition worthy puzzle in a puzzle sense (1 solution), uninteresting event. 
con: great thing for kids to compete in, fast event, brings variety to competition (brains vs brawns)
big/multi bld removed=> pro: takes a long time, not much interest. 
con: has a community (practically) of cubers who dedicate all of their time to bld cubing, is an event of much skill. 
feet removed=> pro: not a lot of interest speedcubing wise, sanitation issues, not in many competitions, is considered a gag event. 
con: gives publicity, is a lot of fun as people do not take it seriously. 
666/777 removed=> pro: takes a long time, takes a long time to even scramble, not much added puzzle theory wise (arguable)
con: lose v-cube support on competitions. . sure there is more to add here. 
no puzzle removed=> pro: having every event at national/world level competitions takes too much time if nothing is removed and something is added
con: people dislike events and wish to see new puzzles to be added. 


personally, i feel that magic and feet should be removed. feet adds nothing to a competition and its not even hosted often enough to take seriously. feet could still be held unofficially. magic/master i do not consider them competition puzzle worthy. perhaps if there was more than exactly 1 solution to the puzzle, it would be more interesting. 

to quote some people: 
'we should create a petition to add skewb'. this has been discussed in much detail. WCA is well aware of the interest of skewb being added. i also believe that skewb is worthy of being an event. it is a very different puzzle, it doesnt have a close similarity to any other puzzle. 

'6x6 and 7x7 are no harder to solve than a 4x4 and should be removed'. i disagree. while it might not need any more knowledge puzzle theory wise, the ones who solve the 6x6 and 7x7 in the same exact fashion as a basic 5x5 redux will have slow times. im sure the top big cube solvers have tricks to reduce the amount of comms necessary on the L2C, and have much more efficient edge pairing tricks. to me, this is what makes it fresh. 

'big bld/multi bld is stupid and should be removed'. sure, speedcubing is not memory sports. this i do agree on. much like how people are stating magic is much like speedstacking. however, i do have much respect for people who are able to compete in this event and who take it seriously. there is a lot more than memo to a bigbld solve. there is a lot of interesting puzzle theory behind the event. 'it takes long' seems like a slap in the face to the people who dedicate all their time to bld cubing. who cares if you can solve a 3x3 bld? face it. its easy. big cubes are not so easy.


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## danthecuber (Mar 15, 2011)

6x6x6 speed


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## maggot (Mar 15, 2011)

RyanReese09 said:


> No, I'm pretty sure it sucks. I hate sprints. I'm more of a long distance person.
> 
> Why do you feel like you have the authority to tell me my opinion is wrong?



because your opinion is wrong!! HAHAHA

incorrect: 2x2 sucks

correct: i think 2x2 sucks


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## sa11297 (Mar 15, 2011)

i think that fewest moves is good because it is a completely different approach than speed solving the cube. you plan it different and use a different method and it requires a different way of thinking.


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## ianography (Mar 15, 2011)

sa11297 said:


> i think that fewest moves is good because it is a completely different approach than speed solving the cube. you plan it different and use a different method and it requires a different way of thinking.


 
This is what event you _hate_...

Well, I hate magic.


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## ChrisBird (Mar 15, 2011)

If forced to choose, I think people would just choose the one they find least appealing or the one they are the worst at. I know I've fallen into that trap a couple times when asked similar questions.


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## cmhardw (Mar 15, 2011)

Ok, so this idea is not shelled out very well. Consider this an initial brainstorming / stream of consciousness post that people can refute / add to / etc.

I, personally, am tired of the repeated debates about adding / removing events coming up. These debates always boil down to some version of the following.

(Remove event X person) : Remove this event for [list of reasons].
(Pro event X person) : No way! I love this event! Don't remove it for [list of reasons]

The people wanting events removed usually list some version of the following reasons for event removal:
1) They want to add a new event that they like, and this must be at the expense of a current event*
2) Feel the event they want removed does not belong in the first place. In their opinion the event has little to no value, either to themselves or in their opinion to the community.

The people wanting to keep events on the chopping block generally:
1) Enjoy the event very much, despite popular opinion
2) Feel the event does add value, either to the community or to themselves

*This is due to the restriction that all events must be held at a world competition

My brainstorming idea is to basically have a form of "Division" system within competitive cubing.

My proposal of a Division system for competitive cubing
Examples of how this could work (these proposed divisions are open to debate):
1) Small cube speedcubing division (2x2x2 and 3x3x3)
2) Medium cube speedcubing division (4x4x4 and 5x5x5)
3) Big cube speedcubing division (6x6x6 and 7x7x7)
4) Non-cubic speedcubing division (clock, pyraminx, megaminx, etc.)
5) Mental division (fewest moves, blindfold)
6) Dexterity division (magics, feet, One-Handed)
7) etc.

Now, my idea is to give competition organizers the ability to restrict how many divisions a competitor may compete in at their competition.

Let's say that people may only register to compete in 3 divisions when competing at a world competition. For National level competitions this may be relaxed to 4 allowable divisions, or for local there may be no restrictions and you could allow all possible divisions.

So, for example, at a world competition that restricts to 3 divisions, then here are some example registrations:

Competitor A:
Registers to compete in the non-cubic division, small cube speedcubing division, and dexterity division.
This competitor would then be allowed to register for any or all of the following events:
1) 2x2x2
3) 3x3x3
4) clock, pyraminx, megaminx, etc.
5) Feet, one-handed, magics

Another competitor may register in only 2 divisions (they choose not to register in all 3 divisions)
Competitor B:
Registers for small cube speedcubing division, and mental division
This competitor may then compete in:
1) 2x2x2
2) 3x3x3
3) 3x3x3 fewest moves
4) 3x3x3 blindfold
5) big cubes blind
6) multi blind

And you get the idea.

This way, although more events are held at a world competition, people are forced to pick events that they enjoy more, or are better at.

This has some pros and cons:

Pro/Con analysis of a division system
I will add to this list if people will post ideas below my post.

*Pros:*
1) This will lead to fewer people competing in all events across the board at a World Competition. This allows events at a World competition to be run in shorter time frames, which will theoretically open up space for other events that don't currently exist in the WCA system. This way all events may still be held at the WC without extending beyond a 3 day time frame.

*Cons:*
1) Jack-of-all-trades puzzlers, or all-rounders would be forced to not compete in certain events at World or National competitions due to whatever the division restriction is at that competition. They would have to make up for this by competing in certain events only when they attend local competitions.

-------------------

Please add more to the list, but so far I think this idea has some potential, once it is worked through, to be a potential change to propose on the WCA forum for next year's changes (or 2012's, or 2013's)


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## sa11297 (Mar 15, 2011)

ianography said:


> This is what event you _hate_...
> 
> Well, I hate magic.


 
maybe i didnt make myself clear. i meant to say that i liked fewest moves. thats what i meant when i said " i think fewest moves is good"


and good job cmhardw


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## maggot (Mar 16, 2011)

i want to still compete in as much as i possibly can. for people such as myself, i am not given the opportunity to goto competition very often. while i see the potential to solve the issue at hand, it would for sure not benefit someone like myself. i think a more viable solution to the issue of adding events is to have groups of puzzles which are official and are optional and official and unoptional. for example, 2-5, 3bld, and whatever else events be official unoptional. these events will be held at worlds. then there will be official optional in which the optional events will be rotated every year at worlds (like a winter and summer olympics). in local comps you could do whatever and depending on the event holder could do whatever to organize the comp. but at worlds, having unoptional events and rotating optional. 

2011= 2x2, 3x3, 4x4, etc. with optional mm, pyra, sq1, clock, feet
2012= 2x2, 3x3, 4x4 etc. with optional 7x7, big bld, skewb, FMC

i think it would be easier to distinguish which events were unoptional (number of times competed, percentage of participants registered in each event etc) and to split the remaining events in a similar fashion to still draw interest to worlds. the worst part of this is location to event. say big cube bld is my forte and worlds are in bangkok this year but next year its 20 miles from me. if they hold bigcubebld optional in bangkok, i'd lose out on a chance to goto worlds and compete in my event 20 miles down the road from me. if that makes any sense at all. 

so, the solution doesnt really require removing any event to add a large amount of events. also at local comps, they can just do within their means to pull interest like how they already do.


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## Jaysammey777 (Mar 16, 2011)

rock1313 said:


> I agree with you with feet,
> 
> but don't even mention skewb. I HATE THAT PUZZLE!!!


 
Most of the cubing community Has and likes this puzzle as much as others, so we may have a 1:5 ratio of people that dislike skewb to people that like it. (these are assumptions based off of imformation that I have) and It would be smart for WCA to make it official, or have people who make skebs pay WCA to include skewb so that there sales go up.


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## Julian (Mar 16, 2011)

I'm not going to comment on this thread anymore for now, except for one thing.


amostay2004 said:


> Magic and Master Magic are the dumbest events but I believe they burn relatively more calories than the other events so there's a tiny bit of usefulness in there ;P


I'm willing to bet that 5BLD, MBLD, FMC, and possibly big cubes all burn more calories than Magic


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## rock1313 (Mar 16, 2011)

Now that I think about it, I should of put magic and master magic together.


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## Mike Hughey (Mar 16, 2011)

I really appreciate both maggot's list and Chris's suggestion. I think maggot did a great job of describing the pros and cons for each event, and I think that summarizes well why it's somewhat difficult to justify removing any events. If Chris's suggestion is a way to keep people happy with keeping all these events, I'm okay with it, even if I am one of those who likes to compete in everything. I can understand maggot's problem with this, though - if you don't get to many competitions, it's sad that you can't compete in very many events. But there's always the possibility of hosting your own local competition with all the events you never get a chance to do, so maybe it's still not a problem.

I suspect Dan Cohen would be sad about Chris's approach, though. Dan really loves doing all events, and this would be a big disappointment to him. (I love all events too, but I admit the BLD events are way more important for me.) There are several people who are really good at almost all events (these people, for instance). Perhaps there should be a way to qualify to be allowed to compete in more than the 3 divisions? Or maybe it could be something like this: at big competitions, you're allowed to compete in any 2 divisions of your choosing, plus you can compete in any other divisions you qualify for (by being in the top x in the world at an event in that division - and that x could be very small if necessary, like top 10).


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## Bryan (Mar 16, 2011)

Mike Hughey said:


> Perhaps there should be a way to qualify to be allowed to compete in more than the 3 divisions? Or maybe it could be something like this: at big competitions, you're allowed to compete in any 2 divisions of your choosing, plus you can compete in any other divisions you qualify for (by being in the top x in the world at an event in that division - and that x could be very small if necessary, like top 10).


 
Why bother with divisions? Current regulations allow organizers to limit events. Divisions are just an ugly grouping that doesn't make sense (why is Pyraminx similar to Megaminx?) For somone who competes in just 3x3, Pyraminx, and Magic, that's spanning 3 divisions. And there's a huge difference between someone doing 3x3, Pyraminx, and Magic and someone doing 2x2, 3x3, Pyraminx, Megaminx, Square-1, Clock, OH, Feet, Magic and Master Magic.

Regulations already allow organizers to restrict events, and I've done that before (choose between 5x5 and Megaminx, but not both). People are always concerned about Worlds and making sure that all events can be held there. I think the fix for that is for people to realize that they aren't entitled to do everything. People at MOA complained about some of the cutoff times I had, but people need to start realizing that if you want to do a full average of 5, put some work into it. Also, the majority of competitions aren't Worlds or other major events, they're one-day regional events. They won't have all the events today, and they won't have all of them if new events are added.


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## MagicYio (Mar 16, 2011)

Yeah, what he said.


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## vcuber13 (Mar 16, 2011)

Bryan said:


> People at MOA complained about some of the cutoff times I had, but people need to start realizing that if you want to do a full average of 5, put some work into it.



the cut offs werent that bad, at normal toronto comps the 5x5 cut off is about 2:15 usually.


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## freshcuber (Mar 16, 2011)

vcuber13 said:


> the cut offs werent that bad, at normal toronto comps the 5x5 cut off is about 2:15 usually.


 
Really? That's fifteen seconds faster than the US Nats cutoff time.


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## ~Adam~ (Mar 16, 2011)

Magic and master magic because if they were released today they would never become WCA events.


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## vcuber13 (Mar 16, 2011)

freshcuber said:


> Really? That's fifteen seconds faster than the US Nats cutoff time.


 
if you dont believe me check, i got 2:22 both times at TOW and couldn't finish the average.


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## freshcuber (Mar 16, 2011)

Man, that's rough. How many people are usually there?


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## Mike Hughey (Mar 16, 2011)

freshcuber said:


> Really? That's fifteen seconds faster than the US Nats cutoff time.


 
Most Toronto competitions are generally at the level of being like a "Canadian Nationals" competition - there are lots of really fast speedcubers, so cutoffs are generally at least as tough as at US Nationals. They're handling 100 people with a staff much smaller than US Nationals, so they have to make the cutoffs pretty tough. At the Toronto competition I went to, the cutoff for 5x5x5 was 2:15, I think, and there were 12 people who made the cutoff! I unfortunately did truly awful and didn't even come close.


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## freshcuber (Mar 16, 2011)

Mike Hughey said:


> Most Toronto competitions are generally at the level of being like a "Canadian Nationals" competition - there are lots of really fast speedcubers, so cutoffs are generally at least as tough as at US Nationals. They're handling 100 people with a staff much smaller than US Nationals, so they have to make the cutoffs pretty tough. At the Toronto competition I went too, the cutoff for 5x5x5 was 2:15, I think, and there were 12 people who made the cutoff! I unfortunately did truly awful and didn't even come close.


 
I knew they were large but I didn't know they were that large. I'll have to go to one since I'm ~4 hours from Toronto.


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## Mike Hughey (Mar 16, 2011)

freshcuber said:


> I knew they were large but I didn't know they were that large. I'll have to go to one since I'm ~4 hours from Toronto.


 
They're a great time - lots of fun and really well-run. As close as you are, you really need to go. (We spent Thursday night before the competition at a hotel in Buffalo, then spent Friday being tourists at Niagara Falls before heading to Toronto for the competition Friday night.)


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## 04mucklowd (Mar 16, 2011)

I think magic,
not master magic, his is really underrated and everyone should try it
IT IS NOT THE SAME AS MAGIC


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## antoineccantin (Mar 16, 2011)

freshcuber said:


> I knew they were large but I didn't know they were that large. I'll have to go to one since I'm ~4 hours from Toronto.


 
At the last Toronto competition there were about 135 competitors if I remember well.


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## vcuber13 (Mar 16, 2011)

antoineccantin said:


> At the last Toronto competition there were about 135 competitors if I remember well.


 
The one last week had 104 people do 3x3


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## convinsa (Mar 16, 2011)

i love magic!!! i dont really like the idea of clock or feet. but i never tried clock. so....


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## maggot (Mar 16, 2011)

Bryan said:


> Why bother with divisions? Current regulations allow organizers to limit events. Divisions are just an ugly grouping that doesn't make sense (why is Pyraminx similar to Megaminx?) For somone who competes in just 3x3, Pyraminx, and Magic, that's spanning 3 divisions. And there's a huge difference between someone doing 3x3, Pyraminx, and Magic and someone doing 2x2, 3x3, Pyraminx, Megaminx, Square-1, Clock, OH, Feet, Magic and Master Magic.
> 
> Regulations already allow organizers to restrict events, and I've done that before (choose between 5x5 and Megaminx, but not both). _ People are always concerned about Worlds and making sure that all events can be held there. I think the fix for that is for people to realize that they aren't entitled to do everything._ People at MOA complained about some of the cutoff times I had, but people need to start realizing that if you want to do a full average of 5, put some work into it. Also, the majority of competitions aren't Worlds or other major events, they're one-day regional events. They won't have all the events today, and they won't have all of them if new events are added.


 
it is really easy to make that statement, and i tried to avoid it. however, with speedcubing continuing to grow, where do you see it in 5 years if nothing is addressed? if new puzzles were added? having local competition would be great, however, what would be the turnout in say, alaska? or for countries other than the US (cough china) that do not have many 'local' regional competitions? 

i would like to hear how we would handle adding say, 5 events? each of which took as much time as a 4x4 round? 

thanks mike for the compliment! i didnt think anyone was listening ; w;


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## Bryan (Mar 16, 2011)

maggot said:


> it is really easy to make that statement, and i tried to avoid it. however, with speedcubing continuing to grow, where do you see it in 5 years if nothing is addressed? if new puzzles were added? having local competition would be great, however, what would be the turnout in say, alaska? or for countries other than the US (cough china) that do not have many 'local' regional competitions?
> 
> i would like to hear how we would handle adding say, 5 events? each of which took as much time as a 4x4 round?



I don't think adding new puzzles will be that much of an issue. Organizers will continue to choose what they want. Adding 5 events that take as much time as 4x4? I'm guessing there wouldn't be many competitions that would hold all of them. 

If a place doesn't have sufficient interest to hold a competition, (like your Alaska example), then don't hold a competition. If they hold one, then there might be more events held because of lower turnout. That's no different from today that if you go to a Midwest competition there are sometimes more event than a Caltech one and you have a better chance of making it to round 2. Of course, I would like to see Alaska and other areas get a chance to host first to avoid the chicken-and-egg scenario that exists, but if turnout is low,don't allow another competition to be held until the low turnout reasons are rectified.


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## maggot (Mar 16, 2011)

i think this is good for hosting competitions. 

for issue of adding puzzles, what of worlds? stricter cutoffs? auto qualifying strong cubers and forcing them out of a round? 

i understand the way you feel about worlds and obligation to compete in every event. how would you propose that events be added, cubing community increasing, and still being able to hold all events in 3 days? the qualifying events will still take much longer than they do now if you add events? only strong cubers allowed to be able to qualify? force strong cubers to sit out of qualifying rounds?


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## Bryan (Mar 17, 2011)

maggot said:


> for issue of adding puzzles, what of worlds? stricter cutoffs? auto qualifying strong cubers and forcing them out of a round?


Just make them pre-qualify. If you're interested in an event that isn't held in your area, take initiative upon yourself to organize a competition. Win-win. People say, "Well, there's no local competitions near me. I don't want to travel anywhere except for Worlds and would like to compete in all the events there with a full average." Well, sorry. That's unreasonable if cubing continues to grow.



maggot said:


> i understand the way you feel about worlds and obligation to compete in every event.


Actually, I don't think Worlds needs to hold every event. That's just me.



maggot said:


> how would you propose that events be added, cubing community increasing, and still being able to hold all events in 3 days? the qualifying events will still take much longer than they do now if you add events? only strong cubers allowed to be able to qualify? force strong cubers to sit out of qualifying rounds?


 What's the problem if they sit out of qualifying rounds? Those are usually "Best of x" anyway. 

Try using capitalization. It makes it easier to read your posts.


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## timeless (Mar 17, 2011)

lol feet it costs extra too

"Participants in the Footsolving round will be charged an additional $7 to cover equipment value depreciation and other miscellaneous issues"


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## irontwig (Mar 17, 2011)

yomaster said:


> 3x3 fewest moves
> 
> Who cares if you can do it in the least amount of moves? It doesn't matter as long as you're fast!


 
You do realize that the Rubik's Cube originally was a puzzle rather than a dexterity test, right?


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## theace (Mar 17, 2011)

I guess Magic and master magic are really pointless unless you have to actually SOLVE a scrambled one.


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## Kenneth (Mar 17, 2011)

maggot said:


> '6x6 and 7x7 are no harder to solve than a 4x4 and should be removed'. i disagree. while it might not need any more knowledge puzzle theory wise, the ones who solve the 6x6 and 7x7 in the same exact fashion as a basic 5x5 redux will have slow times. im sure the top big cube solvers have tricks to reduce the amount of comms necessary on the L2C, and have much more efficient edge pairing tricks. to me, this is what makes it fresh.



But... redux is the noob method, who said you have to use that? there are other ways 

Using my direct solving method anything above 4x4 makes little difference, just more pieces (I don't even do 5x5 anymore because of this, it is just a boring waste of time).


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## Kirjava (Mar 17, 2011)

Kenneth said:


> Using my direct solving method


 
You have your own method? Wow!!!!!


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## Kenneth (Mar 17, 2011)

Kirjava said:


> You have your own method? Wow!!!!!


 
You know, here in Sweden we have a saying that goes like "from yourself you know the rest".

Wich is sarcastic...


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## Kirjava (Mar 17, 2011)

idgi


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## Rune (Mar 17, 2011)

Kenneth said:


> You know, here in Sweden we have a saying that goes like "from yourself you know the rest".
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> How does that sound in Swedish?


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## irontwig (Mar 17, 2011)

"Genom sig själv känner man andra."


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## Rune (Mar 18, 2011)

irontwig said:


> "Genom sig själv känner man andra."



I guessed so. Maybe the phrase "through yourself you know others" is more understandable.


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## linkin182 (Mar 18, 2011)

irontwig said:


> You do realize that the Rubik's Cube originally was a puzzle rather than a dexterity test, right?


:tu


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## Zane_C (Mar 18, 2011)

Not that I would vote for any, but I'm surprised no BLD events are listed.


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## MagicYio (Mar 18, 2011)

Someone should make a new poll with all choices, including 'Magic + Master Magic', '4BLD + 5BLD' and '6x6 + 7x7' (in my opinion).


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## cmhardw (Mar 18, 2011)

MagicYio said:


> Someone should make a new poll with all choices, including 'Magic + Master Magic', '4BLD + 5BLD' and '6x6 + 7x7' (in my opinion).


 
And also a "none" option. Am I the only one who doesn't think any of the current events are useless?


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## Kenneth (Mar 18, 2011)

MagicYio said:


> Someone should make a new poll with all choices, including 'Magic + Master Magic', '4BLD + 5BLD' and '6x6 + 7x7' (in my opinion).


 
Ramadan fixed it : http://www.speedsolving.com/forum/showthread.php?28118-What-is-the-most-useless-event-in-the-WCA

Continue there...

(close this thread?)


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## MagicYio (Mar 18, 2011)

But there ain't no 2x2x2 man.


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## deadalnix (Mar 18, 2011)

Being useless isn't the whole point of cubing stuff ?


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## Kirjava (Mar 18, 2011)

deadalnix said:


> Being useless isn't the whole point of cubing stuff ?


 
Entertainment is a use.


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## Mike Hughey (Mar 18, 2011)

Kirjava said:


> Entertainment is a use.


 
By that definition, since I consider all of the events to be quite entertaining (at times, anyway), I guess I must agree with Chris. They're all entertaining, so none of them are useless.


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## Kirjava (Mar 18, 2011)

Sure, I think the intention of the thread is to find the least popular event though.


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## qqwref (Mar 18, 2011)

The most useless event is every event you don't practice. There, I said it.



Kenneth said:


> Using my direct solving method anything above 4x4 makes little difference, just more pieces (I don't even do 5x5 anymore because of this, it is just a boring waste of time).


I assume your method doesn't even attempt to take advantage of the fact that bigger cubes turn slower and thus require more efficiency. Plus, it's probably based around a 4x4 scenario where edges are the key, and it's okay to solve centers inefficiently because there are so few of them. Simply knowing how to solve 5x5 through 7x7 and above is not impressive or difficult in the slightest, but actually being able to solve them fast is pretty involved and is definitely different on different cubes. Personally I'm really bored of 6x6/7x7 and haven't done more than one real cube solve in a row in a long time, but that's more of an issue with the cubes themselves than with the event.


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## Kirjava (Mar 18, 2011)

I agree. Midges in 5x5x5 ELL add an extra dimension of fun.


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## TMOY (Mar 19, 2011)

As well as oblique centers on 6^3 or bigger.


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## Jungleterrain (Mar 20, 2011)

IMO solving with feet is just nasty.
"Don't touch that cube, I have athlete's foot."


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