# Color Neutral: Yes, No, Tried and Quit, Never Tried



## jdh3000 (Jan 7, 2021)

Just a discussion to see who is or isn't color neutral; who tried and quit, who has never tried and doesn't care to learn.

Did you switch or have you always been CN? 

If you switched, do you feel like you gained quite a bit?

If you didn't switch or gave it up, are you pretty happy without it?

No shame in leaving it behind if you feel like your time was better spent building up other areas, that inspection time is better without it. 

This is not meant to argue whether one way is better than the other, just wondering.

Is anyone in the middle of learning and how do you feel about it?

I personally had put it off because every time I've tried it I wasn't happy with the results. It felt weird and awkward. I wasn't getting that rush I got from "whizing" through a solve. 

I'm trying again and I'll just have to see how it goes. I think many enjoy cubing so much and are happy on one or two colors, that doing anything that seems to pull away from that is too much of a distraction. 

There are some top cubers who aren't CN. 

I think it's a personal decision and neither way is more or less correct than the other. We don't perceive the world in exactly the same way, and what works for one may not be what works for another.


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## CodingCuber (Jan 7, 2021)

jdh3000 said:


> Just a discussion to see who is or isn't color neutral; who tried and quit, who has never tried and doesn't care to learn.
> 
> Did you switch or have you always been CN?
> 
> ...



I really haven't bothered to ever learn. I average 15 to low 16 so I probably should but the truth is I just have never been bothered. Btw obviously I'm white/yellow dual colour neutral but that doesn't count.


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## Cubing Forever (Jan 7, 2021)

Well started cubing CN but now I'm quad CN and quit practicing orange/red because it's so hard. Probably will consider orange/red sometime later but I'm happy with quad CN for now.


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## ProStar (Jan 7, 2021)

I briefly attempted to become CN, only made it do Dual CN before stopping


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## carcass (Jan 7, 2021)

I have always been color neutral. From the get go, I thought there was no reason to only use white. One of my best solves, a 12.89, was a one move red cross, which i would have not seen had I not been color neutral. I think it is the optimal way to solve.


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## Waterfire (Jan 7, 2021)

I became color neutral very early on, back when I was still using the beginner method. I don't think I'd even started to time my solves yet at that point.


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## qwr (Jan 7, 2021)

I'm really bad at cross and f2l and I struggle a lot trying to be CN. ive never seriously tried CN but maybe I should


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## Deleted member 55877 (Jan 7, 2021)

I was color neutral basically as soon as i started cubing. It paid off nicely, now I don't have to go through the struggles of transitioning from white cross to CN


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## qwr (Jan 7, 2021)

does it matter if you average over 15 seconds


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## abunickabhi (Jan 7, 2021)

I tried becoming color neutral but failed (for CFOP)

Currently I am method neutral, I use both CFOP and Roux in my 3x3 speedsolves, U F E' R2 E R' U2 S U2 S' R' F' U'.


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## BenChristman1 (Jan 7, 2021)

qwr said:


> does it matter if you average over 15 seconds


It’s actually better to become CN as early as possible, because it’s really hard to kick those single-cross habits after you’ve already done so many solves.


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## jdh3000 (Jan 7, 2021)

abunickabhi said:


> I tried becoming color neutral but failed (for CFOP)
> 
> Currently I am method neutral, I use both CFOP and Roux in my 3x3 speedsolves, U F E' R2 E R' U2 S U2 S' R' F' U'.



Do you use Roux when your cross case is too bad for CFOP? 
Do you ever start with Roux but finish with CFOP on a single solve?


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## abunickabhi (Jan 7, 2021)

jdh3000 said:


> Do you use Roux when your cross case is too bad for CFOP?
> Do you ever start with Roux but finish with CFOP on a single solve?


Yes I do Roux when the white cross or the yellow cross is not favourable, or I jump to Roux if I see a 1x2x2 square immediately.
Rarely, I finish a Roux solve with CFOP, but there have been some lucky L10P cases where, I get a OLL/OLLCP on the top layer, or I just get a U perm finish, it is rare though and unintentional, and I generally consider it as a Roux step, U L E L2 E' L' E L2 E' U'.


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## jdh3000 (Jan 7, 2021)

abunickabhi said:


> Yes I do Roux when the white cross or the yellow cross is not favourable, or I jump to Roux if I see a 1x2x2 square immediately.
> Rarely, I finish a Roux solve with CFOP, but there have been some lucky L10P cases where, I get a OLL/OLLCP on the top layer, or I just get a U perm finish, it is rare though and unintentional, and I generally consider it as a Roux step, U L E L2 E' L' E L2 E' U'.


Cool! I've been working on Roux block building to do f2l, then just finish with oll/pll. I'm thinking I could remedy some poor cross situations.

Though I haven't learned full Roux, I do like the left and Right blick building, just needing to make it faster and get my m slices quicker. It may eventually replace a lot of my f2l, we'll see.


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## DiamondGolem12 (Jan 7, 2021)

I was colour neutral from the start. When I learnt to solve a cube first I solved it on the green cross so if anything, I'd rather make a green cross rather than white.


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## jdh3000 (Jan 7, 2021)

I wish I had done color neutral from the start. In the beginning I was doing yellow cross on top with a beginner’s method. When I stated cfop most everything had white on bottom so I switched to that just to be congruent. 
That would’ve been a perfect time to have solved on all sides, when I was just learning to make pairs.


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## Spacey10 (Jan 7, 2021)

I was single until high 50s, then I saw how some people on this forum were struggling to switch because they were fast (Micah Morrison), so I switched. Took like 5 solves.


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## Milominx (Jan 7, 2021)

I have Always Kinda been cn now im truly cn


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## qwr (Jan 7, 2021)

DiamondGolem12 said:


> I was colour neutral from the start. When I learnt to solve a cube first I solved it on the green cross so if anything, I'd rather make a green cross rather than white.



Interestingly enough I used to solve on green too because it was my favorite color. I switched to white because all the tutorials used it.


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## OreKehStrah (Jan 7, 2021)

I'm not color neutral, but I'm not a single cross solver either. I practiced solving on white only for several years, and then decided that using one color wasn't the move, so I practiced all the other colors as well to the point that I can find and use good crosses on any color. However, if you were to pick a random color on the cube and said do an average of 25 with just that color, it would be slightly worse than my white cross avg of 25, so I don't call myself color neutral. I prefer to say I'm an All-Colors solver


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## qwr (Jan 7, 2021)

people have talked about dual CN but I don't see how that's any easier than just doing full CN?


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## DNF_Cuber (Jan 7, 2021)

qwr said:


> people have talked about dual CN but I don't see how that's any easier than just doing full CN?


it is easier, yellow/white look very similar.


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## jdh3000 (Jan 7, 2021)

DNF_Cuber said:


> it is easier, yellow/white look very similar.




Yes, I can find colors on yellew cross about as well as on white, but get very lost on other colors.


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## OreKehStrah (Jan 7, 2021)

qwr said:


> people have talked about dual CN but I don't see how that's any easier than just doing full CN?


I think the main appeal for white solvers to do DC is that the brain is already used to filtering ROBG as F2L/Side colors so the brain is used to filtering out white or yellow to end up on UD so it’s easier on the brain to just flip the two over than get accustomed to those colors being on the side.


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## GenTheThief (Jan 8, 2021)

As a ZZer, full CN is a lot harder than for a CFOPer, since you have only 6 different ways to be CN and I would have 24: 3 different EO choices (xy), 4 different line/cross choices (z), and 2 different ways to fingertrick (y2).

Currently, I only sometimes use y2 neutrality, which I only do when I have a bunch of bad edges on the back of the cube and the fingertricks aren't nice-- I'll spin around to the other side and execute them from the "new" front with nicer finger tricks (this maybe happens 1/200 solves). For the most part however, I'm completely fixed.

Most ZZers recommend being able to be y neutral so that you have access to a second EO if your first one has a lot of bad edges. This has a similar advantage to DCN for CFOP in that you get a second option without changing the up/down colors for any of the colors on the y axis.
Recently, ZZers have been recommending full x2y like in roux, but I don't think it's really worth it. Unless you do all the different colors at the same frequency (as opposed to switching to them only when your main color is bad), then not having any of the colors in the correct position really messes you up. As it is, I can't even stand y2 neutrality and mess up both my line and AUF's all the time. I can't imagine trying to get used to having them inverted with yellow down.


However, this does come from the perspective of someone who has been solving fixed for 5+ years. If someone is new to the method, then getting used to things CN would almost certainly be better as you can always pick the best case which should lead to more efficient, faster solves.


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## EngiNerdBrian (Jan 8, 2021)

I always felt doing dual color neutral with white and yellow was hard; I know others find it easier than a completely different color though. When solving yellow I'd sometimes revert back to my white color scheme/recognition tactics and pair f2l pairs with the edge misoriented. I found working on green, shrek cross, to be easier and more beneficial. 

I did realize I needed to work on other F2L fundamentals before attempting color neutrality though so I've abandoned this task in the meantime.


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## Cubertix (Jan 8, 2021)

It took me about 600 solves to return to my usual average when I decided to become color neutral. 100 for each side. My tips for making the switch:

1. Do it as soon as possible. I've been color neutral since I averaged 30s (now sub 17). The sooner the better, because you don't need to relearn things as much. That, and your skills will have more time to develop and lookahead will be much easier to build up.

2. Do an ao100 specifically on each cross color. I firmly believe that's all you need to have enough background practice on each side to be colour neutral. The fluidity will improve over time, but with this amount of practice you'll have enough to consistently be able to solve without any incorrect inserts. After these 600 solves, try doing completely colour neutral, color-specific averages.

3. Allow yourself infinite inspection until you feel comfortable. You have to choose from 6 crosses and then plan the cross you choose. It's a lot to do for 15 seconds from the get-go.

Good luck!


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## Cubertix (Jan 8, 2021)

Exactly!


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## OreKehStrah (Jan 8, 2021)

Something else to note about color neutrality is that I think the standard color scheme is not color balanced well when solving on ROBG, or even on white/yellow. For white cross, red and orange don’t contrast very well. Lots of people are very particular about how their reds and oranges look, and I think that’s due to how poorly they contrast. Yellow and red contrast way better. Now, let’s say you’re doing Red Cross. Then you’re going to have white and yellow F2L, and those colors don’t contrast very well so it can be easy to mistake the two colors in bad lighting or turning fast. I’ve had a lot of solves DNF where I thought the cube was solved but actually had a U perm or something where white was on the yellow side or vice versa. Basically the cube has too many bright, non-contrasting colors. There is a lot of evidence to back this up too. Look at square-1 where people are swapping out yellow or white for black to increase the contrast. And megaminx where people tend to swap grey for black. I think it’s becoming pretty obvious that there is a lot of benefit to adding black to a puzzle to increase contrast, and takes minimal effort to readjust to. If you swap yellow for black on 3x3 you get a way more balanced cube, with way faster recognition. And it is impossible to mistake black for white.


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## SlothmanCubing (Jan 11, 2021)

I tried it for a little bit, but switched to dual cross instead for better focus and ease of recognition


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## Daikaigan (Jan 11, 2021)

I'm not color neutral on all colors but I'm dual color neutral on yellow/white. I started with white and after I became sub-20, getting a bad cross gets quite annoying since it happens a lot so having two options to choose from makes it better. Doesn't necessarily mean I check both colors every time though. If the white cross is easy to do then I just don't bother checking the yellow cross.


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## RealNaoh (Jan 11, 2021)

I’ve been dual-CN ever since I’ve been sub-30, and when I averaged high 8, I made the switch to CN. It was difficult and tiring, but it did make cubing more interesting. Approximately 10 months from that (now), I average low-mid 8, and I would still say I’m better for white and yellow a little bit. CN just gives me the edge in good scrambles. Do it if you want to do it. I personally did it because it would make cubing more interesting and motivating for me, and so that’s why I did it. I also admit that I partially did it because I believed it would make me faster, which it did, but only by a few tenths of a second (which is a lot at my skill level). So I would just say to do it if you want to, and if you aren’t motivated to do it and want to redirect your focus to something else, then do so.


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## Puzzlerr (Jan 7, 2022)

carcass said:


> I have always been color neutral. From the get go, I thought there was no reason to only use white. One of my best solves, a 12.89, was a one move red cross, which i would have not seen had I not been color neutral. I think it is the optimal way to solve.


i wish i had been told to do it from the beginning


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## tsmosher (Jan 7, 2022)

OreKehStrah said:


> I'm not color neutral, but I'm not a single cross solver either. I practiced solving on white only for several years, and then decided that using one color wasn't the move, so I practiced all the other colors as well to the point that I can find and use good crosses on any color. However, if you were to pick a random color on the cube and said do an average of 25 with just that color, it would be slightly worse than my white cross avg of 25, so I don't call myself color neutral. I prefer to say I'm an All-Colors solver


This coming from the guy who did 10 CN ZZ solves in a row on 10 cubes with 10 different color schemes!?

I have been color neutral since I started.

When i was trying to get faster with CFOP, I played around for a bit with white/yellow dual CN. Where you are constantly changing orientation in CFOP, I did not find that reverting to dual CN helped with my F2L pair pattern recognition much/at all.

So I went back to CN.

With the method(s) I use now, I'm honestly not skilled enough to start x2/y. I have a terrible time visualizing the block I need to build and can never find a good pair/block to start with (while staying x2/y).

I don't find that CN gives me much of a problem these days-- with pair recognition or anything else. Although once in a blue moon, I will join together a useless U layer pair.


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## OreKehStrah (Jan 7, 2022)

tsmosher said:


> This coming from the guy who did 10 CN ZZ solves in a row on 10 cubes with 10 different color schemes!?
> 
> I have been color neutral since I started.
> 
> ...


Crazy what a pandemic does right?
After I joined the ZZ server and learned there was a guy doing CN ZZ I was like, “ I gotta try that” and now I can do it lol.


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## RainbowsAndStuff (Jan 7, 2022)

I switched like 7 or 8 months into speedcubing. My average definitely improved because i was getting lucky crosses more often. Took me about a month to learn it and another half month maybe to be equal on all colours. I’m fully CN now


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## any name you wish (Jan 7, 2022)

I've been color neutral since I've averaged a minute, and now I average 12 seconds. It's great!


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## bulkocuber (Jan 7, 2022)

I tried CN for a month when I began speedcubing, but I stopped practising it because it was so boring and there was no improvement. White is fine for me. A lot good speedcubers aren't CN, so yeah I don't regret it. The only thing that I like about CN is the fact that when you solve on a different colour, the cube has red/blue/green.... on top and it makes the cube cooler.


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## Flowkap (Jan 8, 2022)

I tried and quit, except for 2x2. I have limited time to practise and am not even close to times where it's relevant. Most importantly: I'll probably never get even close to those times and it's more frustrating than fun to me. 

I by now found that I enjoy varieties of puzzles more than just speed. So I like to improve times as well but more on variety of puzzles so I'm not aiming for color neutral anytime soon. And as it's harder later on probably never. 

What shall I say: Older cubers brain


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## Sajwo (Jan 8, 2022)

Cubertix said:


> It took me about 600 solves to return to my usual average when I decided to become color neutral. 100 for each side. My tips for making the switch:
> 
> 1. Do it as soon as possible. I've been color neutral since I averaged 30s (now sub 17). The sooner the better, because you don't need to relearn things as much. That, and your skills will have more time to develop and lookahead will be much easier to build up.
> 
> ...



This is terrible advice. CN is all about chosing the optimal cross solution, not picking specific color before you even look at the scramble


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## RainbowsAndStuff (Jan 8, 2022)

Sajwo said:


> This is terrible advice. CN is all about chosing the optimal cross solution, not picking specific color before you even look at the scramble


I disagree because this gets you used to the colour so after you’re used to it you can then do solves where you look for the best solution
This is the method I used to learn, i did a few hundred solves on each cross colour and basically banned myself from solving on white cross for a while, because my aim wasn’t to get pbs on these colours it was to average the same i averaged on white, and then i started practicing with unlimited inspection so i could learn to look for the best solution and now i do it automatically and a lot faster


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## Melvintnh327 (Jan 8, 2022)

I actually tried full color neutral but I realize it makes my F2L slow, so I quit being color neutral.


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## Puzzlerr (Jan 8, 2022)

i'm becoming duel neutral (is that what's its called?) and its going pretty good, i average a little bit slower though. I am color neutral on 2x2 and pyra obviously


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## OreKehStrah (Jan 8, 2022)

Puzzlerr said:


> i'm becoming duel neutral (is that what's its called?) and its going pretty good, i average a little bit slower though. I am color neutral on 2x2 and pyra obviously


Yeah dual cross or x2y. It’s a good compromise


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## CornerTwisted (Jan 8, 2022)

I became color neutral yesterday, over the course of 2 weeks. I now average lower times


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## Swamp347 (Jan 8, 2022)

I became color neutral a while ago. It’s not that I don’t like it, it’s just that I will normally solve on white or yellow, but they all are about the same speed.


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## Batsy_who_laughs (Jan 9, 2022)

uhhh the thing is im not trying to be colour neutral or m i quitting to be colour neutral like i jus do CN solves when i feel like it so yeah


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## Meatalic_Cuber (Jan 9, 2022)

jdh3000 said:


> Just a discussion to see who is or isn't color neutral; who tried and quit, who has never tried and doesn't care to learn.
> 
> Did you switch or have you always been CN?
> 
> ...


Nope, Never


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## IsThatA4x4 (Jan 9, 2022)

I _want _to be dual CN (white/yellow), but because I average 13 now, it's hard to not immediately start inspecting white. Then in F2L, my brain wants to look at white pieces while I'm doing yellow pairs which screws with my lookahead. Plus, the colour scheme for the side colours on yellow is the other way round, which means I often put pairs in the wrong slot or end up with a 2 edges swapped cross.
Of course, these are all things I can work on and I'm sure it'll work out with time.


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## AidenCubes (Jan 9, 2022)

Im only color neutral on 2x2, but when using Ortega or CLL, its extremely helpful.


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## 5.1pyrso (Jan 9, 2022)

I've tried becoming CN a lot of times, with cfop, with roux, on 4x4 with yau (most recently), and have quit equal amount of times. I guess it's just because i can't stick to being significantly slower than I am for an extended period of time even though I know I'll be faster at the end. I've mostly given up on it now, dual CN is fine for me since I don't cube that much anymore.


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## OreKehStrah (Jan 9, 2022)

IsThatA4x4 said:


> I _want _to be dual CN (white/yellow), but because I average 13 now, it's hard to not immediately start inspecting white. Then in F2L, my brain wants to look at white pieces while I'm doing yellow pairs which screws with my lookahead. Plus, the colour scheme for the side colours on yellow is the other way round, which means I often put pairs in the wrong slot or end up with a 2 edges swapped cross.
> Of course, these are all things I can work on and I'm sure it'll work out with time.


If you have a stickerless cube, try swapping yellow and white. That way if you focus into the white pieces you practice a normal cube’s yellow F2L, or if you do yellow, you’ll have familiar F2L.


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## Garf (Jan 9, 2022)

I have been trying to become CN, but I always am trying to stick with White/Yellow, and rarely of the other colors.


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## UPCHAN (Jan 9, 2022)

not color neutral i think but when i see a easy cross on another color that isn't white/yellow i try maybe i average +2 or +3 sec bc my brain trying to recognize the f2l pairs


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## tsmosher (Jan 10, 2022)

5.1pyrso said:


> I've tried becoming CN a lot of times, with cfop, with roux, on 4x4 with yau (most recently), and have quit equal amount of times. I guess it's just because i can't stick to being significantly slower than I am for an extended period of time even though I know I'll be faster at the end. I've mostly given up on it now, dual CN is fine for me since I don't cube that much anymore.


Yeah, I don't think it's so cut and dry. You won't necessarily be faster just because you are CN. Dual CN is fine, and some of the fastest cubers are.


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## OreKehStrah (Jan 10, 2022)

Honestly, I think dual cross, while being able to solve on the other 4 colors if the scram is lucky enough is going to be best for most people


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## Swagrid (Jan 10, 2022)

I tried cn for a month but went back to dual

the catch is that it was with zz


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## Eli Satterfield (Jan 10, 2022)

I perform best using a white cross but that’s only because I have been using it for a year, I use beginner cfop, (no full pll or oll) and if I start on a different color I can perform almost as wel, as on white I just have to think about what colors I am filtering out for f2l


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