# How does the M2 work?



## Lotsofsloths (Jan 21, 2008)

I read the page and saw the example solve and stuff, but how does it work?
no algorithms, only setup moves then preforming M2, its quite amazing actually...
Also, are the setup moves intuitive?
It could be a possible method for me


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## Mike Hughey (Jan 21, 2008)

The setup moves are actually very intuitive - I've never bothered to memorize them because they're almost visually obvious, and I can execute them faster than almost anything else I've tried, even though I rarely ever do M2. The only problem with M2 is dealing with the difficult edges UF and DB; you may wind up with misoriented edges that you have to go back and fix (but there are optimizations you can do to help with this, which are definitely more advanced). I still think M2 is a little more difficult than some of the other methods for beginners. It's a good advanced method, but if I were you I'd probably stick with pjk's method (I think you said you were trying that) until you get it down first. Still, it couldn't hurt to at least try to understand how it works.

As for how it works, it's a 3-cycle between the UB and DF pieces and the piece you're trying to replace. So you cycle your DF piece to the desired location, that piece goes to UB, and UB goes to DF. But since you've done M2, that means the piece at UB is now at DF, so you can just use it again to shoot to your next location. If you're going to do M2, it's very helpful to understand that this 3-cycle is what's actually going on.


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## Lotsofsloths (Jan 21, 2008)

As for the piece by piece method that uses J perm and T perm, that never seems to work for me!
I'm not sure if its my memo or execution, I get corners with ease, I preform parity when necessary, but my edges suck, they are always in the wrong spot except a few!(Today I got 6 edges incorrect)


Wow, something just clicked 
(Not about M2 method)
Instead of 3 cycling 3 edges with the Permutation, use this algorithm they use with Roux method, only 4 moves and cycles 3 edges, 
U2 M U2 M'
and It's inverse

Just thought of it so its a rough idea..
,


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## joey (Jan 21, 2008)

Lotsofsloths said:


> (Not about M2 method)
> Instead of 3 cycling 3 edges with the Permutation, use this algorithm they use with Roux method, only 4 moves and cycles 3 edges,
> U2 M U2 M'
> and It's inverse
> ...


Umm, you basically use that in M2. except its U2 M' U2 M'.


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## cuBerBruce (Jan 21, 2008)

Lotsofsloths said:


> Wow, something just clicked
> (Not about M2 method)
> Instead of 3 cycling 3 edges with the Permutation, use this algorithm they use with Roux method, only 4 moves and cycles 3 edges,
> U2 M U2 M'
> ...


Daniel Beyer mentioned this idea back in 2006:
http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/blindfoldsolving-rubiks-cube/message/1568

I have been using essentially this idea for solving edges. See:
http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/blindfoldsolving-rubiks-cube/message/1641

Also see my recent "FMC BLD" solution for an example solve with this method.


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## alexc (Jan 21, 2008)

The idea of M2 is to solve one piece at a time by shooting from a buffer. The buffer is either DF or FD, whichever you prefer. Stefan Pochmann, who I'm sure you know invented the method, use DF. Erik uses FD. I use FD. It is just your personal preference. 

So, say that FD goes to RU. The idea is to bring RU to BU (Only if your buffer is FD. If it is DF bring the sticker to UB.) with setup moves that don't disturb the other M slice edges, perform M2, undo the setup moves. This results in one solved edge. So, to do this I would use R' U R U' as the setup moves. So, the whole alg would be R' U R U' M2 U R' U' R. I do all of the setups intuitively except the M slice ones. 

I think you already know it is impossible to switch two pieces and not change anything else on the cube. Therefore the method has some side effect. It is a rotation of the M slice centers and switches the UF/FU and DB/BD edges. This only affects how you solve those two edges. If the centers are wrong, you need to shoot to the opposite place, so UF becomes DB and FU becomes BD and vice versa.

So, to answer some of your questions, yes, the setup moves are all intuitive for me, except for the M slice I memorized algs. I am very glad I switched to this method, it is very easy and extremely fast!!!


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## Lotsofsloths (Jan 21, 2008)

I still don't get how you would fix the centers and the UF/FU and DB/BD edges.
I basically need an easy effective method, that I can sub 10min BLD solve it.


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## Dene (Jan 21, 2008)

I use Pochmann's Y+T perms method, extremely easy. I got a new Personal Best (of maybe, 5 solves?) of 8:29 yesterday with it.


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## Lotsofsloths (Jan 21, 2008)

Dene, you can BLD?
You never told me that!
I currently use the one where you use the J perms and the T perm.
How would you use the Y Perm and the T perm?
They don't switch the same corners?


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## Dene (Jan 21, 2008)

Oh, sorry, I've only been learning for just over a week lol.
I used Joel's page to learn BLD cubing. Basically, you use Y perm without the starting F and finishing F', for corners. T perm for edges. Go through it, it is EXTREMELY easy. I did my first BLD solve after only 6 days after reading that page.


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## malcolm (Jan 21, 2008)

So i'm not the only one from NZ who can do blind =) But im faster =P 

Another trick you can do to avoid shooting to the bad places is to change your buffer, since M2 is just 3 cycles really. I use this for 4x4x4 BLD with R2, which i intend to try soon, i've just been doing sighted solves, but i suck at the centers.


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## Lotsofsloths (Jan 21, 2008)

Dene said:


> Oh, sorry, I've only been learning for just over a week lol.
> I used Joel's page to learn BLD cubing. Basically, you use Y perm without the starting F and finishing F', for corners. T perm for edges. Go through it, it is EXTREMELY easy. I did my first BLD solve after only 6 days after reading that page.



Hm...I'll check it out, my corners are pretty good though, just my edges suck, both memo and execution


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## Dene (Jan 21, 2008)

malcolm said:


> So i'm not the only one from NZ who can do blind =) But im faster =P
> 
> Another trick you can do to avoid shooting to the bad places is to change your buffer, since M2 is just 3 cycles really. I use this for 4x4x4 BLD with R2, which i intend to try soon, i've just been doing sighted solves, but i suck at the centers.



How fast? I intend to be sub-5 by the end of this week, and sub-3 in a month.


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## malcolm (Jan 21, 2008)

2:21 is my PB =D Mostly im sub-3. I'm in the process of switching from Macky edges to freestyle, and commutators for corners, so i should be sub-2 soon. For getting from 8 mins down to sub 3, just work on your memo, you can cut minutes off easily. I memo in 45-1:15 usually.


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## alexc (Jan 21, 2008)

I was extremely slow (like 6-10 minutes) with pure and free style 3 cycle. Then, I switched to M2, and BAM my times dropped to consistent 3, sub 3 on a good one for me now, 4 on a bad one. Hope to be at about 2 by Princeton.


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## amateurguy (Jan 22, 2008)

Lotsofsloths said:


> I basically need an easy effective method, that I can sub 10min BLD solve it.



Some beginner's methods have great potential to be fast.

I use PJK's method that *only *uses T-perm for CP and EP (I learnt orientation from random vids on YouTube). My personal best is under 5 and a half minutes. An average of sub-6 is very possible even though the method might seem inefficient.

With enough practice the execution phase can be done in under 3 minutes. Seriously. And the cool part is with this method, I sometimes don't pause to think between steps because I know my next setup and my next move (sort of like lookahead in F2L during normal solves).

But yeah, we're in the same boat. I still don't quite get M2. Plus I'm not ready to memorize more stuff (22 pieces versus 12 on T-perm) without a good memory method to start with.


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## joey (Jan 22, 2008)

amateurguy said:


> Some beginner's methods have great potential to be fast.


Depends on what you call fast.



amateurguy said:


> With enough practice the execution phase can be done in under 3 minutes.


I executed in 1:42 on my first try.



amateurguy said:


> Plus I'm not ready to memorize more stuff (22 pieces versus 12 on T-perm) without a good memory method to start with.


Where is this 22 pieces thing coming from? You memorise the same wether you use M2 or T-perm.


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## alexc (Jan 22, 2008)

joey said:


> Where is this 22 pieces thing coming from? You memorise the same wether you use M2 or T-perm.



I think he does orientation with the T perm, making only 12 places to shoot to. Really though, the real strength of the Pochmann methods is 1, no orientation, and 2, easy setups and execution.


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## joey (Jan 22, 2008)

alexc said:


> joey said:
> 
> 
> > Where is this 22 pieces thing coming from? You memorise the same wether you use M2 or T-perm.
> ...



Who was it that invented M2 again, oh right, it was Mr. Pochmann himself. Therefore M2 still only needs 12 edges.


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## amateurguy (Jan 23, 2008)

joey said:


> alexc said:
> 
> 
> > joey said:
> ...



Yes, I do orientation separately from T-perm, which is why my execution time is considerably slower. 

I should've rephrased my sentence correctly. In the method I use now, I only have 12 (or 10) different edge positions and setup moves to know. M2 and other orientation-permutation methods require me to know 22 different positions instead (an edge has 2 orientations, ignoring buffers). 

Sure M2 needs you to only memorize 12 edges but you still have to remember how to shoot to 22 different locations. And I mainly avoided T-perm with orientation because I have trouble setting up with the edge's orientation in mind. 

My apologies if I've used the wrong terms/jargon etc.


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## Stefan (Jan 23, 2008)

amateurguy said:


> And I mainly avoided T-perm with orientation because I have trouble setting up with the edge's orientation in mind.


That's just because you never really understood it. Think in terms of stickers, not in terms of pieces with orientations. Also, the setups in M2 are even easier because there are pretty much just two cases.


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## Dene (Jan 23, 2008)

Hmm, actually I never thought of it that way, that's a good point! The only hard bit is the last bit. You always finish with 3 edges to cycle right?


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## Lotsofsloths (Jan 23, 2008)

Dene did you have trouble with the edges with the method you used at first?
I have a really hard time with the edges, I'm not sure if its the execution or my memory, BTW Dene: which memory method do you use?


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## Dene (Jan 24, 2008)

Nope, no problem at all. I can do the T-perm easy, and I have no problem with commutators, so set up is easy enough.

For memo, I just memorise the cycle for corners, and I use images for edges (roman rooms, my bedroom). Although, I'm finding as I do it more, I don't need the clear image nearly as much...


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## Leo (Jan 24, 2008)

The only reason I dont use M2/ Pochmann is because it is so much harder (for me) to memorize by sticker. And breaking into a new cycle is sometimes hard for me to visualize.


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## mizzle (Feb 8, 2008)

Ok. I'm learning to do M2 with the edges right now, and generally orient first, because it makes my setups much, much easier, makes my execution really fast, and I can memo/execute orientation quickly.

I have severe difficulty doing the M slice edges. I mean...how do you set up to solve the UF and DB edges? And how do you start new cycles? I always wind up botching something. I really believe that this method has awesome potential opposed to 3 cycles, but I'm having some trouble right now.


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## masterofthebass (Feb 8, 2008)

mizzle, pre-orienting kill the effectiveness of M2. The set-ups for FR/RF are barely challenging at all. The only issues, would be the M slice edges, but you can just orient those after the fact. For M slice edges, you solve the exactly the same way. Stefan and Erik's sites have algorithms for UF and DB, which are just simple like MU2MU2. You just have to keep track of if the centers are flipped, so you know whether to shoot do UF or DB when you're solving. You start new cycles, like you would on any blindfold method, you shoot the buffer piece to another position that's not solved and continue solving...


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