# 2x2 BLD questions



## hawkmp4 (Jul 19, 2008)

I've learned 2 cycle method for permuting from PJK's guide, and I understand it perfectly, i just need more practice with memo.
However, I'm not entirely sure how to memo orientation. Visual isn't working for me. Should I attempt to just use 0 for correct orientation, 1 for CW and 2 for CCW? Or is there a better way? currently I'm using the commutators on PJK's site for orientation.


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## fanwuq (Jul 19, 2008)

You sure you are using 2 cycle? I think it's 3 cycle. If you can't even memo CO-only with visual, I'm not sure how I can help. Just look at top and bottom layers and 2/3 of the time they look like COLL cases. For the other cases, I'm not sure what's the best way, I just did it visual too, it's a bit harder, but it's easy with visual too. You can try anything that works for you, if you like numbers. What do you do for permutation then?


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## hawkmp4 (Jul 19, 2008)

I just remember the cycles starting with the 3 spot then do setup moves and T-perms.
And I don't know COLL... or would that not matter?
Like, do the 7 OLLs with all edges oriented preserve corner permutation?


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## fanwuq (Jul 19, 2008)

You don't do them, just recognize that way.
Can I see the link to the toturial?
I'd actually suggest to learn old pochmann from solvethecube.co.uk or 3OP from cubefreak.net.


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## hawkmp4 (Jul 19, 2008)

http://pjkcubed.com/blindfold-guide.html
There. I've tried Old Pochmann but I don't understand at ALL how CO works... it seems to not even be mentioned.


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## joey (Jul 19, 2008)

That's because it _isn't_ mentioned. You resolve CP and 'CO' at the same time, which is really just CP.

For CO, if you really want to do it, just try harder to memo visually. It _isn't_ hard.


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## tim (Jul 20, 2008)

hawkmp4 said:


> http://pjkcubed.com/blindfold-guide.html
> There. I've tried Old Pochmann but I don't understand at ALL how CO works... it seems to not even be mentioned.



So, PJK is the evil guy who teaches orienting first with Old Pochmann?

www.solvethecube.co.uk > all. Enough said.


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## Alex DiTuro (Jul 20, 2008)

For 2x2x2 BLD I use Pat's method as well. For CO, I use numbers. 1 for cw and 2 for ccw. Don't memorize the oriented cubies. 

Here's an example solve: 
I start with red on front, green on right, and yellow on up.
1=UFL
2=UFR
3=UBR
4=UBL
5=DFL
6=DFR
7=DBR
8=DBL
*SRCAMBLE: U B' D L' F' U L' U' L2 F L U R B U' R B' R2 B' R U B D' R2 F2*
srcamble with white on top and green on front

Bring blue white pink corner to correct position: x' y2

*CO memo: *

corners 1, 2, and 4 need to be rotated clockwise or 1 twist to correct orientation
corners 3, 6, and 7 need to be rotated counter-clockwise or 2 twists to correct orientation
corners 5 and 8 are correctly oriented or 0 twists to correct oreintation *erase from memory*

124 = 1
367 = 2

CP memo:
3 belongs to 1 which belongs to 5. cycle ends.
2 belongs to 6 which belongs to 7 which belongs to 4. cycle ends.

(3 1 5)
(2 6 7 4)

*SOLUTION:*

*CO:*

124: 
U2 (R' D R D' *2) U (R' D R D' *2) U (R' D R D' *2)

367: 
(setup: D2 L2 y) 
(R' D' R D *2) U (R' D' R D *2) U (R' D' R D *2) U2
(undo setup: y' L2 D2)

*CP:*

(3 1 5)

(L2 D F2) R U2 R' U' R U2 R L' U R' U' L' (F2 D' L2)
(F2) R U2 R' U' R U2 R L' U R' U' L' (F2)

Set Buffer: R U2 R' U' R U2 R L' U R' U' L' 

(2 6 7 4)

(D' F2) R U2 R' U' R U2 R L' U R' U' L' (F2 D)
(D2 F2) R U2 R' U' R U2 R L' U R' U' L' (F2 D2)
(L2 F2) R U2 R' U' R U2 R L' U R' U' L' (F2 L2)

Restore Buffer: R U2 R' U' R U2 R L' U R' U' L'

SOLVED!
*
Number memo for the orientation is pretty easy so you should stick to that. GL!*


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## joey (Jul 20, 2008)

Alex DiTuro said:


> F
> Number memo for the orientation is pretty easy so you should stick to that. GL!


No, it is bad. Just memorise it. It _isn't_ hard.


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## hawkmp4 (Jul 20, 2008)

Thank you alex!
Joey...
would you like to say WHY its bad?


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## Kyle™ (Jul 20, 2008)

The best way to BLD a 2x2x2 is to use lookahead to match 2 or 3 pieces, and memorize where pieces will be after that.

My best solve this way is like 9 secs from last year. Super easy.


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## hawkmp4 (Jul 20, 2008)

Hm, so then get as far as you can by visualizing moves, then memorize the cube after you do the moves, so you're doing less of the cube in a purely BLD way?


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## hawkmp4 (Jul 20, 2008)

I just had my first 2x2 BLD success!
CO was 1 and 5 CW, 3 and 7 CCW.
CP was (3 5 6) (1 2) (7 8).
Thanks a million guys!


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## fanwuq (Jul 20, 2008)

tim said:


> hawkmp4 said:
> 
> 
> > http://pjkcubed.com/blindfold-guide.html
> ...






I'm surprise that you are doing this to us, PJK! NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I looked up to you, man!


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## hawkmp4 (Jul 20, 2008)

Why is it bad?
Its simple and very procedural.


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## InternetTom (Jul 25, 2008)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsknmW5Q6NM
Lance does a good job teaching 2x2 blind.


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## tim (Jul 25, 2008)

hawkmp4 said:


> Why is it bad?
> Its simple and very procedural.



It's not simple.


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## hawkmp4 (Jul 26, 2008)

Sure it is... orient the corners with commutators, then place corners one at a time using T perms. Very simple.


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## tim (Jul 26, 2008)

hawkmp4 said:


> Sure it is... orient the corners with commutators, then place corners one at a time using T perms. Very simple.



Since when are 2 steps simpler than 1 step?


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## hawkmp4 (Jul 26, 2008)

When the 1 step is more complex.


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## InternetTom (Jul 26, 2008)

I'm with the hawk here.


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## tim (Jul 26, 2008)

So: You guys rather want to add an extra step to your bld method to avoid complexity? The thing is: Leaving out the orientation step doesn't add complexity at all. Permutating is exactly the same thing: Memorize 8 corners and set up the corners by paying attention to the stickers. That's it.

Believing in those complexities sounds like believing in god to me.


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## InternetTom (Jul 26, 2008)

Tim, I agree that Orienting and permuting at the same time is better, but for memo I can remember the orienting really easy without thinking about it and permuting than becomes simpler. I totally agree with you as far as execution goes but I prefer my memo technique which works better for orienting than permuting.

BTW excellent comparison their.


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## blah (Jul 27, 2008)

InternetTom said:


> ... but I prefer my memo technique which works better for orienting than permuting.


Uhh, so? That's not a valid argument against a permutation-only method. We know your CP memo sucks (like mine), and your CO memo rocks (unlike mine), but either way you _still_ have to go through the sucky process of memorizing CP, so just work on your sucky step and it'll improve with time, rather than lean on an easy step and leave your sucky step sucky as ever.



InternetTom said:


> BTW excellent comparison their.


Nice typo their. And I like the comparison too


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## hawkmp4 (Jul 27, 2008)

tim said:


> So: You guys rather want to add an extra step to your bld method to avoid complexity? The thing is: Leaving out the orientation step doesn't add complexity at all. Permutating is exactly the same thing: Memorize 8 corners and set up the corners by paying attention to the stickers. That's it.
> 
> Believing in those complexities sounds like believing in god to me.


That's like telling a beginner, one look PLL is simpler because you just do it in one step, instead of worrying about corners then edges.


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## joey (Jul 27, 2008)

Not really. It is different.
CP only _isn't_ harder than CO and CP.


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## MistArts (Jul 27, 2008)

1.Let say you are using 3-cycle or 2-cycle. 

2.Let say you orient first

If you orient first you still have to set up the piece like permuting stickers.

But...

3.Let say you didn't orient first and only memorized the permutation of the stickers.

You still setup the pieces but only this time, you setup the stickers. So it's the same amount of memorization to memorize the the pemutation. But orienting first requires the memorization of the orientation.

So. Memorization: Orienting first < permuting stickers

Now on to execution.

Orienting first has to do orienting first (duh...) but both of them has to do permuting (duh...). But permuting stickers is only permuting stickers and therefore has less to execute.

So. Execution: Orienting first < permuting stickers

Overall: Orienting first < permuting stickers


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## tim (Jul 27, 2008)

MistArts said:


> But permuting stickers is on permuting stickers and therefore has less to execute.



Sorry, uhm what?


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## MistArts (Jul 27, 2008)

tim said:


> MistArts said:
> 
> 
> > But permuting stickers is on permuting stickers and therefore has less to execute.
> ...



on is supposed to be only. I fixed it now.


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## hawkmp4 (Jul 27, 2008)

Okay...then...how do I remember orientation along with permutation?


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## joey (Jul 27, 2008)

You don't. You just remember permutation of 'stickers'.


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## MistArts (Jul 27, 2008)

NO...Only permutation...of the stickers.


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## Hubdra (Jul 28, 2008)

as an example, your FR sticker (which for me is Green-Red), is totally different than your RF sticker (which for me is Red-Green). They change what setup moves you use, because you're permuting them differently.

except those are edges. I got lazy and didn't do a corner as an example, but I hope you can understand the main premise.


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## yurivish (Jul 28, 2008)

How long should the setup moves be, on average? I've never done a cube blindfolded before and I tried doing this while looking (cycling stickers) and the setup moves were fairly convoluted. I was using a J perm, though; is it easier swapping, say, the two opposite corners on two different layers?


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## joey (Jul 28, 2008)

Yes, thats why you use a conjugated Y perm.
F' Y-perm F

2 on average or so, 3 is the max for Y-perm corners.


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## tim (Jul 28, 2008)

joey said:


> Yes, thats why you use a conjugated Y perm.
> F' Y-perm F
> 
> 2 on average or so, 3 is the max for Y-perm corners.



No, 2 is the maximum and the average is between 1 and 2 moves.


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## philkt731 (Jul 31, 2008)

I always thought that if you are going to memorize stickers for corners (ie no, orientation), why wouldn't you just use commutators? Its so many less move, a little more thinking, and definitely faster


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## MistArts (Aug 1, 2008)

philkt731 said:


> I always thought that if you are going to memorize stickers for corners (ie no, orientation), why wouldn't you just use commutators? Its so many less move, a little more thinking, and definitely faster



Some people don't bother learning commutators?


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## philkt731 (Aug 2, 2008)

But theyre the most intuitive and optimal thing ever! Its just insert, replace, uninsert, unreplace, or replace, insert, unreplace, uninsert


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## Mike Hughey (Aug 2, 2008)

I think it's just the "a little more thinking" part that keeps people away from commutators. It takes quite a bit of practice to get really fast with them, and you can get faster much more quickly with some of the other methods.

But eventually you can get quite fast with commutators; good example - Chris Hardwick. It just takes a lot of practice.


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## MistArts (Aug 3, 2008)

There are some cases that are tricky for commutators tough.


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## joey (Aug 3, 2008)

Like......?


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## MistArts (Aug 3, 2008)

joey said:


> Like......?



The cases with all the stickers facing two opposite ways.

Like U' R2 U F2 U F2 U' F2 D' F2 D R2


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