# Cube Materials



## Dash Lambda (Dec 17, 2016)

I was thinking recently, a lot of the cubes nowadays are made from ABS, which is relatively easy to manufacture with and pretty strong, but it isn't the strongest plastic. Some cubes use different plastics, and even very slight variances in material can change the feel of a cube dramatically. Aside from the obvious performance issues, one of the biggest reasons I hate my Rubik's brand speedcube (the 2.0 or whatever it's called) is the almost rubbery, horrible plastic.

Anyway, the thing I was wondering was how well different plastics would work for speedcubes.
Anything fiber-filled (glass-filled, CF-filled, etc.) obviously doesn't really have a place in speedcubes because wear resistance wouldn't be that much better and the cube would just be incredibly rough (or am I wrong?). Polycarbonate is generally pretty strong and has good wear resistance, but I don't think it stands up to flexing as well as other types of plastic.

I have no idea how each type of plastic would respond to different lubricants, though that makes me think of another property that's important, coefficient of friction. I wonder what type of plastic has the lowest friction...

I'm curious what you guys think the best material for a speedcube would be. I'm personally a bit lost.


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## stoic (Dec 17, 2016)

Is wear resistance important?
Maybe the future of WR attempts lies in fast but disposable speedcubes that wear out after a few solves...


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## One Wheel (Dec 17, 2016)

I'm not much of an expert on plastics, but I'd be really curious to see what would happen if somebody made a good speedcube design out of aluminum. I'm also a big fan of wood, but I doubt it would actually make a really good speedcube. Someday I do hope to make a speedcube out of 6 different types of wood and a clear finish. It might not be a good speedcube, but it would be beautiful. You could also use tempered glass to make a ridiculously fast cube.


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## Loiloiloi (Dec 17, 2016)

One Wheel said:


> I'm not much of an expert on plastics, but I'd be really curious to see what would happen if somebody made a good speedcube design out of aluminum. I'm also a big fan of wood, but I doubt it would actually make a really good speedcube. Someday I do hope to make a speedcube out of 6 different types of wood and a clear finish. It might not be a good speedcube, but it would be beautiful. You could also use tempered glass to make a ridiculously fast cube.


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## One Wheel (Dec 17, 2016)

Loiloiloi said:


>


That's cool, but it's just wooden tiles. I could probably do that in 20 minutes with a chop saw and some super glue. What I meant was actually carving the internal structure from wood. A stickerless cube, but with wood instead of plastic.


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## Loiloiloi (Dec 17, 2016)

One Wheel said:


> That's cool, but it's just wooden tiles. I could probably do that in 20 minutes with a chop saw and some super glue. What I meant was actually carving the internal structure from wood. A stickerless cube, but with wood instead of plastic.


That would be awesome! What would you use as a fastener though?


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## One Wheel (Dec 17, 2016)

Loiloiloi said:


> That would be awesome! What would you use as a fastener though?



Like for the core? I guess I was figuring I would use a standard plastic core and metal screws, but I like to be a purist if I can, so I wouldn't be above carving a core and screws, but I really don't see any way around using stock springs.


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## Dash Lambda (Dec 17, 2016)

One Wheel said:


> I'm also a big fan of wood, but I doubt it would actually make a really good speedcube. Someday I do hope to make a speedcube out of 6 different types of wood and a clear finish. It might not be a good speedcube, but it would be beautiful. You could also use tempered glass to make a ridiculously fast cube.


I've never been big on wood. It's a really inconsistent material, it isn't very strong compared to the stuff we have now, and the smell always made it hard for me to breath...
No accounting for taste, though. Pretty is pretty, no-matter how much I disagree.

As for glass, that was one of the things I was thinking about, but if you look at the technical data tempered glass has very similar frictional properties to plastic. A glass cube would also almost certainly have very flat pieces with a lot of contact area, so I'm not sure it would be that much faster...



stoic said:


> Is wear resistance important?
> Maybe the future of WR attempts lies in fast but disposable speedcubes that wear out after a few solves...


It does for a couple reasons...
-Obviously, you don't want to put money into something that isn't designed to last. I bought my Shuang Ren in 2013 and used it heavily, and I only actually replaced it once the Gans Air came out. I wouldn't buy a disposable cube no-matter how good it is, 'cause I wouldn't have it for long.
-Setting up cubes is important, and it doesn't matter what sort of magic goes into a cube, people will have to set it up. I couldn't imagine going through cube after cube for that reason alone.


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## One Wheel (Dec 17, 2016)

Dash Lambda said:


> I've never been big on wood. It's a really inconsistent material, it isn't very strong compared to the stuff we have now, and the smell always made it hard for me to breath...
> No accounting for taste, though. Pretty is pretty, no-matter how much I disagree.
> 
> As for glass, that was one of the things I was thinking about, but if you look at the technical data tempered glass has very similar frictional properties to plastic. A glass cube would also almost certainly have very flat pieces with a lot of contact area, so I'm not sure it would be that much faster...
> ...



A good hard wood isn't much weaker than plastic. If it's thin it's weaker, but if you use a design with rounded internals like a thunderclap it should work fine. It's going to be very difficult to limit friction because of the porosity of wood, so I don't expect a great speedcube, but if I ever get around to actually making such a thing I expect it will be good enough that I will certainly use it in a competition.

As far as glass, it could be made in any shape. The issue with making the "perfect" speedcube is getting the right balance of static and kinetic friction. Magnets essentially increase static friction at certain points. It's not just an issue of reducing friction.

Finally, as far as durability if the cubes were consistently good they might not need to be set up. I'm generally in favor of durable things, but I've heard that the best racecar is the one that falls apart just after the finish line. Hypothetically the same could be true of a speedcube. For the vast majority of people that would be terrible, but for somebody chasing that last tenth of a second to get a sub - 4 single it might be just the thing.


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## Dash Lambda (Dec 17, 2016)

One Wheel said:


> A good hard wood isn't much weaker than plastic. If it's thin it's weaker, but if you use a design with rounded internals like a thunderclap it should work fine. It's going to be very difficult to limit friction because of the porosity of wood, so I don't expect a great speedcube, but if I ever get around to actually making such a thing I expect it will be good enough that I will certainly use it in a competition.
> 
> As far as glass, it could be made in any shape. The issue with making the "perfect" speedcube is getting the right balance of static and kinetic friction. Magnets essentially increase static friction at certain points. It's not just an issue of reducing friction.
> 
> Finally, as far as durability if the cubes were consistently good they might not need to be set up. I'm generally in favor of durable things, but I've heard that the best racecar is the one that falls apart just after the finish line. Hypothetically the same could be true of a speedcube. For the vast majority of people that would be terrible, but for somebody chasing that last tenth of a second to get a sub - 4 single it might be just the thing.


I'm sure you could make a good cube out of wood (as you said, not a speedcube, just something solid), I just don't like the material.
After all, the original was made of wood...

Yeah, glass could be made into any shape, I just can't see it being made into anything too difficult...
Then again, that is rather the point, isn't it? I guess we _are_ talking about what would theoretically be best.
Though I think it is very much about reducing friction, in additional to getting the perfect flexibility and the best durability possible. That might just be my personal preference, of course, since I hate high static friction and I like fast cubes (like the Gans Air, my only real issue with it is that unless it's set up perfectly, the flat surfaces make the static friction really high).

For durability, setup is highly subjective so you're never going to have a cube that's universally good at stock, but I think the biggest issue with a cube that's dead after a few solves would be trust. Look at all the snapped corner stems with the GTS, or all the broken original cores with the Gans Air, those are very well built and durable cubes and they still had those issues. Just imagine what it would be like on a cube with such a short lifespan, every solve would be a gamble.
Then again, it could just be that the surface wears down so fast, but then I think it would be best handled at a consumable part and not the cube itself. I mean, Maru lube makes cubes really fast, but it doesn't last very long at all, so you have to replace it very frequently... I imagine anything that wears out so quickly would just be an addition to the cube.

Though that does make me think of something else, I wasn't considering that cubes are actually made of a variety of components.


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## One Wheel (Dec 17, 2016)

Here's a half-baked idea: a cube with three springs instead of six. Springs cross in the middle so tensions on opposite sides are always even. Not sure exactly how that would work. Definitely half-baked.


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## Dash Lambda (Dec 17, 2016)

One Wheel said:


> Here's a half-baked idea: A cube with three springs instead of six. Springs cross in the middle so tensions on opposite sides are always even. Not sure exactly how that would work. Definitely half-baked.


I could see something like that being possible with the Rubik's speedcube's spherical core, but you would need the springs to be routed around each other so they don't have to occupy the same space. Maybe if you had separate springs for each side but connected opposites with arced bars?
... I can't see it being practical to implement, though...


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## dskids (Dec 19, 2016)

At the end of the day, I think ABS will continue to be the standard because it ticks almost all the boxes required for speedcube applications: cheap, very high relative strength, responds well to lube, can be formulated for different feels/properties, easy to mold & manufacture, cheap to manufacture, and very importantly injection molding allows for shelled (thin walled) part geometry which gives the designer flexibility of controlling the weight and flex of each individual piece. Remember that anything but the most cost-effective materials and manufacturing methods would price a cube out of the market for most cubers. 



Dash Lambda said:


> Anything fiber-filled (glass-filled, CF-filled, etc.) obviously doesn't really have a place in speedcubes because wear resistance wouldn't be that much better and the cube would just be incredibly rough (or am I wrong?)


The value of fiber-filled material lies in its strength/weight ratio in tension when used as a structural material. I don't think a typical speedcube sees the type of loadings where this would be an advantage. Also I think friction and the likelihood of absorbing lube would be disadvantages for fibrous materials.



Dash Lambda said:


> Polycarbonate is generally pretty strong and has good wear resistance, but I don't think it stands up to flexing as well as other types of plastic.


Polycarbonate is exceptionally strong and is known for its resistance to shattering. I actually think that would be one material worth exploring as a cube material. The only drawback I can think of is most polycarb I have experience with has a sort of static-y stickiness to it. Not sure how it would respond to lube.



Dash Lambda said:


> I have no idea how each type of plastic would respond to different lubricants, though that makes me think of another property that's important, coefficient of friction. I wonder what type of plastic has the lowest friction...


Nylon has a very low coefficient of friction but it is far too soft to be viable for cube manufacture. There might be viable nylon composites that are harder/stronger while retaining the same low friction properties but might just be cost prohibitive for cubing.



Dash Lambda said:


> As for glass, that was one of the things I was thinking about, but if you look at the technical data tempered glass has very similar frictional properties to plastic. A glass cube would also almost certainly have very flat pieces with a lot of contact area, so I'm not sure it would be that much faster...


Glass is an interesting thought but would be so expensive to manufacture to precise dimensions and complex geometry. Also glass is very susceptible to flex. Corner stalks would be breaking off left and right.


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## dskids (Dec 19, 2016)

stoic said:


> Is wear resistance important?
> Maybe the future of WR attempts lies in fast but disposable speedcubes that wear out after a few solves...





One Wheel said:


> I'm generally in favor of durable things, but I've heard that the best racecar is the one that falls apart just after the finish line. Hypothetically the same could be true of a speedcube. For the vast majority of people that would be terrible, but for somebody chasing that last tenth of a second to get a sub - 4 single it might be just the thing.


Really interesting thought. Imagine the major sponsored cubers showing up at comps with dozens of disposable but ridiculously high performing cubes with the specific intent of chasing new WR singles. Not sure what type of material or construction would achieve that but its a pretty cool concept nonetheless.


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## One Wheel (Dec 19, 2016)

dskids said:


> Glass is an interesting thought but would be so expensive to manufacture to precise dimensions and complex geometry. Also glass is very susceptible to flex. Corner stalks would be breaking off left and right.



Complex geometry is potentially an issue, but I don't think precise dimensions or strength are. It just depends on the type of glass. I remember reading that gorilla glass was originally developed for making thinner stronger windshields, but it was discontinued because it was dangerous: people were getting hurt or killed when their heads bounced off the windshield in a crash. It all depends on the type of glass.


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## dskids (Dec 19, 2016)

One Wheel said:


> Complex geometry is potentially an issue, but I don't think precise dimensions or strength are. It just depends on the type of glass. I remember reading that gorilla glass was originally developed for making thinner stronger windshields, but it was discontinued because it was dangerous: people were getting hurt or killed when their heads bounced off the windshield in a crash. It all depends on the type of glass.


For the record I don't think complex geometry or precise dimensions are the issue with glass - it is the expense of a manufacturing method that can achieve either one. You're talking about a high precision die molding type of process, potentially with a lot of post-processing on expensive grinding equipment by skilled technicians. Compare that to a plastic cube where they pull a rack of 100 identical pieces out of a mold at the same time and trim them off the stems with a box cutter and throw em in a box.

I know there are some super strong glass materials out there, but I still think the type of load that a corner stalk sees (shear + bending through a tiny cross section) plays specifically to any glass material's weakness. I'd love to be proven wrong though, because a glass speedcube could have some really interesting properties (and would probably look really cool).


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## One Wheel (Dec 20, 2016)

dskids said:


> For the record I don't think complex geometry or precise dimensions are the issue with glass - it is the expense of a manufacturing method that can achieve either one. You're talking about a high precision die molding type of process, potentially with a lot of post-processing on expensive grinding equipment by skilled technicians. Compare that to a plastic cube where they pull a rack of 100 identical pieces out of a mold at the same time and trim them off the stems with a box cutter and throw em in a box.
> 
> I know there are some super strong glass materials out there, but I still think the type of load that a corner stalk sees (shear + bending through a tiny cross section) plays specifically to any glass material's weakness. I'd love to be proven wrong though, because a glass speedcube could have some really interesting properties (and would probably look really cool).



Expense, certainly, but I'm not entirely convinced that is insurmountable, and even if it is you could always make friction pieces out of glass and corner stalks from steel, fiberglass, or any number of other materials.


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## Sion (Dec 22, 2016)

I was always 5hinking in terms of POM for cubes. Hard, low friction plastic. I was conmanufacturing the tempest with POM because of its properties, although it makes cubes somewhat clacky because it is much harder than ABS, despite being much faster and it feels rather slippery even when dry. I know this from my experience with beyblades, when they specially released a POM performance tip named polish defense. Really good stuff POM.


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## 4Chan (Dec 22, 2016)

Sion said:


> I was always 5hinking in terms of POM for cubes. Hard, low friction plastic. I was conmanufacturing the tempest with POM because of its properties, although it makes cubes somewhat clacky because it is much harder than ABS, despite being much faster and it feels rather slippery even when dry. I know this from my experience with beyblades, when they specially released a POM performance tip named polish defense. Really good stuff POM.



Dayan produced a POM cube, which was pretty bad. The biggest issue is that people aren't thinking the right way. I strongly believe that coefficients of friction are the most misleading things when it comes to producing cubes. There's already a sweet spot of low friction available with lubricants, and what materials should be focusing on are specifically _handfeel._

POM/ACETAL is slightly harder to work with than ABS because of the temperature settings of the injection molder.

I can't reveal too much about upcoming Cubicle Labs projects, but we need to think outside the box.
Plastics and materials are much more than the data sheet properties because of additives, and the polymer alone is not the only factor into the plastic.

Cube plastics aren't purely ABS, but rather ABS with additives and a whole myriad of other molecules. One option is to improve additives to produce a superior, cube specific ABS!

In the very distant future, we will see anisotropic molding techniques.
This means that with a single molded piece, you can have different properties and materials in a SINGLE piece.

The technology already exists, it just needs to be applied to cubing hardware.
The startup cost isn't that high either.

Certain parts of the puzzle can be made VERY thin with high strength and flex, and other parts will have a different hardness/softness, and many more features that I can't talk about.
The secret to this is to use known techniques in engineering such as carbon fiber layups with different types of weave and resins. By using this, we can push design aspects further because we won't be limited by the weaknesses of ABS in certain parts.

Give it a few months. Mid-2017, maybe.


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## One Wheel (Dec 22, 2016)

4Chan said:


> Dayan produced a POM cube, which was pretty bad. The biggest issue is that people aren't thinking the right way. I strongly believe that coefficients of friction are the most misleading things when it comes to producing cubes. There's already a sweet spot of low friction available with lubricants, and what materials should be focusing on are specifically _handfeel._
> 
> POM/ACETAL is slightly harder to work with than ABS because of the temperature settings of the injection molder.
> 
> ...



Hype to warp speed! This is very tantalizing. I hope you are able to deliver on even just a meaningful percentage of what you've suggested. Perhaps you can give one more hint: to what extent is this applicable to, or what percentage of your research is focused on, big cubes as opposed to just 3x3? I really only care about 3x3 inasmuch as I need to know how to solve one in order to finish bigger cubes.


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## 4Chan (Dec 22, 2016)

One Wheel said:


> Hype to warp speed! This is very tantalizing. I hope you are able to deliver on even just a meaningful percentage of what you've suggested. Perhaps you can give one more hint: to what extent is this applicable to, or what percentage of your research is focused on, big cubes as opposed to just 3x3? I really only care about 3x3 inasmuch as I need to know how to solve one in order to finish bigger cubes.



Uh oh, I think I gave out too much information.
People lose their jobs if they talk too much!!

But yep, it's just for 3x3 currently!

Currently, bicycles already use anisotropic (different properties in different directions/regions) molding techniques.
Certain regions undergo torsion (twisting), and other regions experience much more tension(pulling).

In engineering, these are represented in stress diagrams, as shown below. (I used to work in an engineering firm, and one of my undergraduate schools was a top engineering school!)

To compensate for this, when they mold the bicycles, they use different materials in each part of the bicycle. This means that the materials in the torsion region are more resistant to torsion, and the materials in the regions sensitive to tension are built up correspondingly.







With rubik's cubes, certain cubes are experiencing breakage and failures in certain parts due to having the plastic too thin or too weak. Examples are the Valk 3 edges, Yuexiao corners, WeiPo corners, and Weilong GTS Corners. The data and statistics for these breakages are scraped and parsed from customer service and replacement parts orders here at The Cubicle.

So if these parts were reinforced or created with that in mind, we could make them EVEN THINNER and PUSH THE LIMITS on other secret aspects related to puzzle design!


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## Dom (Dec 22, 2016)

Wow. Mind blown....again. 
@4Chan I'm glad you're on our team. 

Hey everyone: we gotta take care of Chris Tran. If a talented mind like his falls into the wrong hands... we'd all be doomed.


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## 4Chan (Dec 22, 2016)

Dom said:


> Wow. Mind blown....again.
> @4Chan I'm glad you're on our team.
> 
> Hey everyone: we gotta take care of Chris Tran. If a talented mind like his falls into the wrong hands... we'd all be doomed.



Awww shucks, THANKS A LOT
With the holiday rush, I've been really busy making cubes, but starting in January, more cool projects on the way!

Also, another option is for manufacturers to work on blow molding.
This allows for a TRUE single piece molding, which has the potential for even BETTER tolerances, consistency, and lightness. It's not as simple as normal injection molding, but it's an option to be explored.


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## One Wheel (Dec 22, 2016)

4Chan said:


> Uh oh, I think I gave out too much information.
> People lose their jobs if they talk too much!!
> 
> But yep, it's just for 3x3 currently!
> ...



Bummer on big cubes, but I'm sure if you figure stuff out for 3x3 it will eventually spill over. I sincerely hope you don't lose your job: that would suck for all concerned.


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## Dash Lambda (Dec 23, 2016)

@4Chan , I was hoping you'd give your input, you've always got _really, really good_ information~
Blow moulding is an interesting possibility, I can see how it would be perfect for things like what Gans did with the Air Ultimate, they could just not bother with the glue and have an all-around more solid and consistent design, maybe even lighter _and_ stronger.
... Actually, didn't C4Y use that with their "gas-assisted" cube? It's difficult to tell given their broken English, but it's either that or a completely filled design...


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## 4Chan (Dec 23, 2016)

Dash Lambda said:


> @4Chan , I was hoping you'd give your input, you've always got _really, really good_ information~
> Blow moulding is an interesting possibility, I can see how it would be perfect for things like what Gans did with the Air Ultimate, they could just not bother with the glue and have an all-around more solid and consistent design, maybe even lighter _and_ stronger.
> ... Actually, didn't C4Y use that with their "gas-assisted" cube? It's difficult to tell given their broken English, but it's either that or a completely filled design...



Wow thanks!!!

I didn't want to say anything at first, because I need to keep projects and information mostly secret because of company policy. I talked about the materials just now because there's lots of ways to achieve better things, but I didn't give away what we're doing at The Cubicle, ehehe.

I REMEMBER THE GAS ASSISTED CUBE!
I want to say that it was solid though, it was a pretty heavy puzzle, but I never cut one open back in the olden days.


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## Dash Lambda (Dec 23, 2016)

4Chan said:


> Wow thanks!!!
> 
> I didn't want to say anything at first, because I need to keep projects and information mostly secret because of company policy. I talked about the materials just now because there's lots of ways to achieve better things, but I didn't give away what we're doing at The Cubicle, ehehe.
> 
> ...


I can't wait to see all the things you guys are planning~

I never got a gas-assisted cube (I wanted to, but it was a little sketchy when I actually tried), so I don't know how heavy it was, but I had the impression that it was light or hollow because it said (and I'm quoting this from memory) "Can natant on water."
That's when I learned that the word "natant" is actually a word.


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