# How to sub 25s - 30s?



## LaffyTaffyKidd (Jul 29, 2007)

I've been cubing for about 4 months and i keep on getting 38-40 seconds (average for 12 solves). 

Can you guys tell me how do you break this 38-40 second barrier?


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## ExoCorsair (Jul 29, 2007)

Slow down on F2L and make no pauses between corner-edge pairs.

That alone got me to sub-35s.


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## LaffyTaffyKidd (Jul 29, 2007)

What do you mean by making no pauses between corner-edge pairs?


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## joey (Jul 29, 2007)

LaffyTaffyKidd said:


> What do you mean by making no pauses between corner-edge pairs?



Betweeen each F2L pair there should be no delay. So you recognise a F2L case, and as you are solving the pair look for the next pair to solve.


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## AvGalen (Jul 30, 2007)

Maybe he doesn't use Fridrich, so he might not know what corner-edge pairs are.

Please tell us the method you use and tell us how long each part of a solve takes you.


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## LaffyTaffyKidd (Jul 30, 2007)

I use the Fridrich method.

The cross : 3-5 seconds

F2L : 17-23 seconds ( non-intuitive )
22-28 seconds ( intuitive )

Last layer : 15-18 seconds


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## dolphyfan (Jul 30, 2007)

Your last layer is very long. do you know PLL or do you not use OLL and then PLL? If you dont know PLL then learn all 21 of them. That was the difference for me. About a month ago I was getting times like yours but I learned PLL and know I average 27 sec. Also work on F2L try to get it down to 13-16 sec and that should get you sub 35 and probably sub 30.


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## AvGalen (Jul 30, 2007)

I use a 4 look last layer and that takes me about 10 seconds. So if you do use OLL-PLL than 10 seconds is the absolute maximum that it should take you (or you will just get the practice/practice/practice slogan)


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## Todd (Jul 30, 2007)

I have the same issue, my best time is 22.77 yet my best average is 40.0x.

Out of 12 typically i have 6 or 7 solves between 35 - 40 seconds and the rest would be mid 40's.

But i would have to say all the times i have done that were sub30 the F2L was maybe 10 seconds.

The F2L is 75% of the cube so you could practice that the most IMO>


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## AvGalen (Jul 30, 2007)

Actually the F2L is 2/3 of the cube and 12/20 of the cubies which is just 66,67% and 60%. Don't underestimate the Last Layer.


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## LaffyTaffyKidd (Jul 30, 2007)

thank you everyone for giving me ideas. And Todd, you're just like me.. lol. My best time is 28 seconds and my best average is like 40.0x too. 
Right now I remember a few OLL and I know 13 PLL, but the PLL's that come up for me mostly are the G perms! (which I don't know) - I'll start learning them though. And for the OLL, is it worth learning most of the algs?? Can you guys tell me how many OLL you guys know out of all of them?

For the F2L, do I practice OVER AND OVER AND OVER??? because it seems like I'm not getting any faster no matter how much i do the F2L. Does anybody know 'exactly' what to do to get faster at F2L?? Do I change some algs, mirror algs, or.. just figure things out myself (since I might have a better understanding that way)?


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## AvGalen (Jul 30, 2007)

Don't just practice, practice, practice. You should also train, train, train. The difference is small but important:
Practice = Random cases come up so you use recognition and execution of random algs
Train = Figure out what causes some algs to be nice and repeat them over and over again to execute them faster. Or put random states on the cube and try to recognize cases. Or try to find fewest moves / fastest execution crosses within 15 seconds, etc.

The difference between training and practice is that you focus on 1 aspect during a training.


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## joey (Jul 30, 2007)

Thats funny Arnaud, because I have been thinking the same thing recently.
Mostly I just practice, but I think it would be good to train. Like just do lots of crosses, or LL's or something. Like focus on one aspect as you said.
I have started doing the same thing with BLD, where I can only memorise for one minute. It forces me not to be lazy!


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## Lt-UnReaL (Jul 30, 2007)

For OLL, just learn the easy cases. It only saves like 3-4 seconds anyway, and for you're speed you don't have to learn OLL yet, just focus on F2L. (And learn PLL)


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## hdskull (Jul 30, 2007)

watch rama's video if you don't know what they're talking about.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=_TvBPg8NkaM

or practice like this:

solve ur first F2L pair half way, stop, w/o turning the cube and look for the next pair, complete the first pair, do the 2nd pair half way, and look for the 3rd pair, finish 2nd pair, and solve the 3rd pair half way, and look for fourth pair. solve the 4th pair as fast as u can, because there's no way to look for OLL, unless u use MGLS. and then finish PLL as fast as you can.

i read that somewhere and haven't really tried it myself, because:
1. i already try to look ahead.
2. i avg sub 30, around 27/28

but i'll try it when i have time to get more fluent with F2L as my F2L still takes too long. (F2L w/cross takes me about 14-18 secs) 2/3 look OLL takes me like 4-8, and PLL takes me 4.

u should easily break the 35 sec barrier.

good luck


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## LaffyTaffyKidd (Jul 30, 2007)

ill try to look ahead during F2L, but the only thing that takes practice is looking ahead while i do my first, second, or third pair. 

what site do you guys recommend to do the PLL fastest and OLL fastest? (meaning fastest algorithm)


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## Lt-UnReaL (Jul 30, 2007)

Look on the OLL/PLL list at the top of the Speedcubing section.


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## apoplectic (Jul 30, 2007)

also,look at what specific algs you seem to be doing slower than others, and train on those.if your like me you had a lot of algs that arent very comfortable and you do them slowly.training with them should boost your speed a lot!


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## ExoCorsair (Jul 30, 2007)

apoplectic said:


> also,look at what specific algs you seem to be doing slower than others, and train on those.if your like me you had a lot of algs that arent very comfortable and you do them slowly.training with them should boost your speed a lot!





Or change the algorithm. It's probably better, even if it adds more moves.


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## pou-pou (Jul 30, 2007)

ExoCorsair said:


> Or change the algorithm. It's probably better, even if it adds more moves.



Ditto that. Have been true too many times with me. Though I'm not complaining .


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## AvGalen (Jul 30, 2007)

How about this general guideline:
A perfect alg is optimal (fewest moves), a 2 generator (only R U for example), doesn't use B moves (or D or F moves), has no cube rotations AND uses only quarter turns


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## blindfold cube (Jul 30, 2007)

AvGalen said:


> How about this general guideline:
> A perfect alg is optimal (fewest moves), a 2 generator (only R U for example), doesn't use B moves (or D or F moves), has no cube rotations AND uses only quarter turns



I have to agree with AvGalen. A good algorithm should consist of only turning the left, right, and upper face of the cube. The down and back faces of the cube tend to take a little regripping (at least for me). The front face is OK.

I always try to have algorithms like this but you won't always get smooth algorithms.


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## pou-pou (Jul 30, 2007)

blindfold cube said:


> The down and back faces of the cube tend to take a little regripping (at least for me). The front face is OK.



Though it always depends. I do my LL J' perm ((R' U' R B R' U' R U R B' (R2' U R U)) easily sub 2s. Just a invert (or mirror what ever ) of the regular J. But still I'm with you. Like for all the OLLs/COLLs I'm trying to find algs with just F/U/R moves. Ls are not too bad, I ain't just not so good at them.


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## LaffyTaffyKidd (Jul 30, 2007)

Wow, this is amazing how so many people are giving me ideas!! One thing that's weird is that everytime new comments come, I have new questions.. lol..

I've heard that after the last pair of F2L, you have to do something to get the OLL to have all the edges?? so Iwould just have to memorizie all the OLL algs. with edges. Does anybody know how to do this??


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## joey (Jul 30, 2007)

That sounds like ZBF2L. You can learn 16 cases (2 * 8 mirrors) to correctly orient all edges after you have paired the last F2L pair.

Or you can learn the 32 basic cases from cubewhiz.com


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## pou-pou (Jul 30, 2007)

LaffyTaffyKidd said:


> I've heard that after the last pair of F2L, you have to do something to get the OLL to have all the edges?? so Iwould just have to memorizie all the OLL algs. with edges. Does anybody know how to do this??



Check out this and searh the page for "Orienting LL Edges". That should give you something to continue with


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## LaffyTaffyKidd (Jul 31, 2007)

hm.. pou-pou, i think you might be thinking of something else?? im not sure, but when i checked that site and searched for orienting last layer edges, it gave me the beginners algs. 

and.. joey where can i go to find the 16 cases (2 * 8 mirrors)


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## dudemanpp (Jul 31, 2007)

http://www.cubezone.be/conU1a.html
The First 8.


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## LaffyTaffyKidd (Jul 31, 2007)

so i use those 8 and then learn the mirror of those 8 by going to the second page?


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## skyuzo (Jul 31, 2007)

LaffyTaffyKidd said:


> so i use those 8 and then learn the mirror of those 8 by going to the second page?



You can just mirror them by thinking how it would work if the pair were on the left side.


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## LaffyTaffyKidd (Aug 1, 2007)

Yes, it's me again trying to find new ways to lower my time. 

People talk about like.. 3look last layer 2 look last layer and stuff.. but I don't get it. 

Can someone explain to me how does the 2 look last layer work?? or give me an example/site?


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## ExoCorsair (Aug 1, 2007)

Example of a 2LLL is OLL and PLL.
Example of the 3LLL is orienting edges, orienting corners (2-look OLL), PLL.


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## AvGalen (Aug 1, 2007)

I use a 4 look last layer. That means that when the first 2 layers are done I have to look at the cube 4 times to be able to solve it (unless I get lucky and skip a step).

When I look for the first time I only try to recognize 1 out of 3 possible cases for the orientation of the edges (look 1) and then my hands perform the moves for that case.

Next step is to recognize 1 out of 7 possible cases for the orientation of the corners (look 2).

Next step is to recognize 1 out of 2 possible cases for the permutation of the corners (look 3).

Final step is to recognize 1 out of 4 possible cases for the permutation of the edges (look 4).



It is also possible to combine the last to steps to form PLL. You would have to recognize 1 out of 21 cases to do that, but it would save you 1 look by doing permutation of corners+edges at once. It would also require less moves.

Another option to combine two steps is to do the first two steps at once (OLL). That would require you to recognize 1 out of 57 cases and save you 1 look and some moves also.


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## Todd (Aug 2, 2007)

I like this thread...

AvGalen, Any tips for orienting the edges for OLL if you do a 4-LLL?

Getting a cross for OLL is probably the slowest part for me.


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## Lt-UnReaL (Aug 2, 2007)

I'm sure you know about FURU'R'F' and FRUR'U'F'. If you have a case where no edges are correctly oriented, then do this alg to make them orient: F R U R' U' S R U R' U' f'
(S=F' f)


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## AvGalen (Aug 2, 2007)

Getting a cross for OLL is the slowest part for you?????

During the last couple of moves of the F2L you should see the number of correctly oriented edges. This is the most likely thing that will happen:
0: You will end up with 0
1: You will end up with 2. The 2nd one will become correctly oriented during the last 1 or 2 moves so you should be able to see if you get the "small L" or the "line". But 0 edges is likely to happen if the correct edge is on the side that your last move will be (R probably)
2: You will end up with these 2.
3: Same as with 1 edge, but 4 edges is likely to happen if the 3 correct ones are not on the side that your last moves will be (R probably)
4: That's strange, F2L must be done already 

Orienting 2 edges should be done in 2 seconds, even if you are not a really fast cuber. Orienting 4 edges takes about twice as long for a beginner.

If you want to speed up your OLL, this is what I would do:
First learn these:
0 edges: 1 out of 8 cases
2 edges: 2 out of 42 cases
4 edges: 7 out of 7 cases
then learn these
0 edges: 8 out of 8 cases (low occurence chance, but you eliminate your worst cases)
2 edges: All cases with < 9 moves (high occurence chance, big time-win)
4 edges: You already know them all
Then learn all other 2 edge cases


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## hdskull (Aug 2, 2007)

hey arnaud, how do you execute FURU'R'F' and FRUR'U'F' ? what kind of finger tricks do you use ? i still use 2 look OLL most of the time cuz i know 25/57 OLL, but i think i do it those 2 setup moves fairly slow, and my motion seems awkward. it'd be great if u can show me how you do it(w/a video, or with words). thanks


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## Sturkman11 (Aug 2, 2007)

Im so close to a sub 30 avg. I took a 12 cube avg ( exclude high and low) yesterday and got 33.14 avg. I can feel it in my fingers. hehe


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## Todd (Aug 2, 2007)

Lt-UnReaL said:


> I'm sure you know about FURU'R'F' and FRUR'U'F'. If you have a case where no edges are correctly oriented, then do this alg to make them orient: F R U R' U' S R U R' U' f'
> (S=F' f)



I know those alg's, I just execute them so slowly  It just seems so awkward .


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## tim (Aug 2, 2007)

Todd said:


> I know those alg's, I just execute them so slowly  It just seems so awkward .


I posted a video for the second alg. Perhaps you can learn how to execute it fast 
http://www.speedsolving.com/showthread.php?t=1244&page=2


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## AvGalen (Aug 3, 2007)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hm6mpS7XL04 at 0:32 seconds and at 1:11.

I use my right index finger to push down on the UFR-piece to do F.
Then a RUR'U' or URU'R' combination (you can do those combinations several times in 1 second, they are the ultimate fingertricks)
Than I use my right thumb to push up on the DFR-piece do do F'.


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## pou-pou (Aug 3, 2007)

Yeah, that 'looking ahead' thing will do it. I've been hanging on the 33-38 second barrier for few months and trying to look ahead a lot. Just today I had this feeling while solving that I 'got it', and for sure my times are now around 25 seconds. Frustrating just that the times don't nessecarily drop gradually, at least for me, at least not yet 
I take these leaps like from 41 -> 36 -> 31 -> 26. Just keep practicing


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## AvGalen (Aug 3, 2007)

Next stops: 21 -> 16 -> 11 ????? Will you reach the 11 seconds on average before or after the Worlds Championship?


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## hait2 (Aug 4, 2007)

out of curiosity, what LL times should I be looking at with 3LLL? I recently (think 30 minutes ago) acquired LLtrainer and am averaging about 12 seconds LL which is pretty bad if you ask me. It's usually about a 50-50split between OLL and PLL in terms of time, and i have about 2-3sec recognition for the pll case which is probably one of the main "uhhh" things.
my main recognition problems are between the G and R (i wouldn't have to AUF if i knew how to tell these two apart easily), and the HEZ perms (the ones with no blocks present).. i usually AUF so the centers are aligned and look from there. E perm is really hard for me to recognize ;(

and since those perms make up pretty close to half of the cases, they're not exactly rare


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## hdskull (Aug 4, 2007)

i use 3 look last layer, unless it's one of the few cases i know, then 2 look, but it takes me about 6-9 seconds depending on the case.


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## apoplectic (Aug 5, 2007)

we should sticky this thread,or at least compilate all the good tips into a sticky.there is some good info here.


Also i have a question about a statement about the cfop pausing halfway into a f2l alg instead of full compleation.how would that make any difference?it seems it would still be a pause and have no effect.


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## Joël (Aug 9, 2007)

Todd said:


> I have the same issue, my best time is 22.77 yet my best average is 40.0x.
> 
> Out of 12 typically i have 6 or 7 solves between 35 - 40 seconds and the rest would be mid 40's.
> 
> ...



F2L + LL = 100% of the cube, so you should practice that the most .

Speedcubing is all about looking ahead. You can't force the speed. You have to train the RIGHT way, and then the speed comes naturally.

Try solving the cube VERY slow (as slow as you like, without timing), and DON'T stop. You are not allowed to stop during the turning. This forces you to look ahead. Your eyes will learn where to look during solving. When you can solve without pauses, slowly speed up. 

Focus on the techniques, and then the speed comes naturally.


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## LaffyTaffyKidd (Aug 9, 2007)

I just tried solving very slow, and it worked pretty good for the F2L. I feel myself doing the cube very smoothly, but then when i start doing it fast again, i lose track of everything lol. So i need more practice.


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