# Should the 15 Puzzle be added as a WCA event? (no)



## Deleted member 19792 (Sep 10, 2013)

My other thread about this was a crudpost

Many people have been doing 15 puzzle lately, and being one of them that solved them for the last 5-6 years, I propose that we add it as a WCA event.

It is mainly like the Rubiks Clock (In terms of being a 2D puzzle), but, has a large amount of combinations. (16! - Parity cases)



This should be a fun and intuitive puzzle. Over the years, there have been many methods as well

LBL (Being the fastest for me)

Reduction/"Roux"/"ZZ" (This is what Ben1996123 would use. Solving the outer border, then solving the second row, then finding the LSP case. (Last Six Pieces)/(8puzzle)

BRICK : Solve 1 2 5 6 top left, top right 3 4 7 8, then do the same for bottom left and bottom right. 



Post your opinion down below on whether you think this should be added as an event. Also, if you ask a question, I might edit this post to put an answer.


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## tx789 (Sep 10, 2013)

Clock is a very neglected event so why add a event that is similar.


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## ryanj92 (Sep 10, 2013)

'The World Cube Association governs competitions for all puzzles labelled as Rubik puzzles, and all other puzzles that are played by twisting the sides, so-called 'twisty puzzles'.'

Given that the 15 puzzle fits neither of these categories, I doubt the WCA would want it as an event... I agree that it is a fun puzzle, I just don't think this is the right place for it.


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## rj (Sep 10, 2013)

tx789 said:


> Clock is a very neglected event so why add a event that is similar.



Why not? It sounds fun!


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## Deleted member 19792 (Sep 10, 2013)

Though it is not catagorized as a twisty puzzle, it still has a way of being scrambled then solved. It is not as related to clock in terms of the challenge, but I dont' know. Maybe it can be a good and interesting event. Maybe it can expand puzzle theory?


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## Forte (Sep 10, 2013)

strakerak said:


> Though it is not catagorized as a twisty puzzle, it still has a way of being scrambled then solved. It is not as related to clock in terms of the challenge, but I dont' know. Maybe it can be a good and interesting event. Maybe it can expand puzzle theory?



You can study it without being an event anyway though


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## Deleted member 19792 (Sep 10, 2013)

xD I know. But its the purpose of the puzzle being in competition..

Pros :

Its a very easy puzzle to solve, although when you learn LSP cases, you can get really fast.
It can be solved optimally

Cons :

Not listed as a "Rubiks type twisty puzzle"


But was Megaminx made by Rubiks? Sorry


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## Jaycee (Sep 10, 2013)

Sure, 15 puzzle is popular. However, it doesn't make sense for the WCA to add an event just because it's popular. A couple posts above:


ryanj92 said:


> 'The World Cube Association governs competitions for all puzzles labelled as Rubik puzzles, and all other puzzles that are played by twisting the sides, so-called 'twisty puzzles'.'


 this is why it can't happen.

Also, the thread title makes it seem like a statement, like *15 puzzle will be added.* If that was done intentionally, well done. If not, you really should've chosen a better title xD


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## Owen (Sep 10, 2013)

Clock isn't technically a twisty puzzle either, and I don't understand why we need to be so strict about the definition anyway.


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## Jaycee (Sep 10, 2013)

strakerak said:


> Not listed as a "Rubiks type twisty puzzle"
> 
> 
> But was Megaminx made by Rubiks? Sorry



But it's still a twisty puzzle. The criteria is that puzzles be made by Rubik's _or_ be twisty puzzles. According to the source that ryanj92 used (WCA guidelines?)


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## uberCuber (Sep 10, 2013)

strakerak said:


> It is mainly like the Rubiks Clock (In terms of being a 2D puzzle)



This is a good reason not to add it as an event.


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## Deleted member 19792 (Sep 10, 2013)

Owen said:


> Clock isn't technically a twisty puzzle either, and I don't understand why we need to be so strict about the definition anyway.



Obviously agreeable.

I think that any puzzle could be part of WCA. But it must be out of interest. Like Skewb. But Skewb is a twisty puzzle xD


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## ryanj92 (Sep 10, 2013)

strakerak said:


> But was Megaminx made by Rubiks? Sorry


Both mega and pyra fit under the category of 'all other twisty puzzles', so they fit the WCA description just fine 



Owen said:


> Clock isn't technically a twisty puzzle either, and I don't understand why we need to be so strict about the definition anyway.


Definitions are, well, definite. If we can't go by that then what do we go by?



Jaycee said:


> But it's still a twisty puzzle. The criteria is that puzzles be made by Rubik's _or_ be twisty puzzles. According to the source that ryanj92 used (WCA guidelines?)



https://www.worldcubeassociation.org/about


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## Deleted member 19792 (Sep 10, 2013)

I honestly think that the WCA should have that niche event. Clock was one of them, and I think 15 puzzle should be another. Just because Clock is not a 15 puzzle doesn't mean it should be removed. 

A several amount of people were interested back then. Especially on YouTube. 

You can search 15 puzzle strakerak and find my videos from 2010 xD.. They were anonymous user submitted challenges. Some of them were pretty easy. 

It turned out to be a battle after that with another YouTube member xD.

But yes.

WCA should have that special event. If we were to add new events, here is the order I would add them in

Skewb
15 puzzle.

2 OH.


Also, you can do the 15 puzzle BLD.


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## Owen (Sep 10, 2013)

ryanj92 said:


> Definitions are, well, definite. If we can't go by that then what do we go by?



Maybe, "combination puzzle"?


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## Deleted member 19792 (Sep 10, 2013)

ryanj92 said:


> Both mega and pyra fit under the category of 'all other twisty puzzles', so they fit the WCA description just fine
> 
> 
> Definitions are, well, definite. If we can't go by that then what do we go by?





I know its a twisty puzzle. Im not trying to redefine it as one that is not. I was trying to see if it was originally created by Rubiks


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## Noahaha (Sep 10, 2013)

strakerak said:


> I honestly think that the WCA should have that niche event. Clock was one of them, and I think 15 puzzle should be another. Just because Clock is not a 15 puzzle doesn't mean it should be removed.
> 
> A several amount of people were interested back then. Especially on YouTube.
> 
> ...



You just keep saying things without giving a reason.

WCA should have that special event? Why? Why _should_ the WCA have an event that stands out from the rest?

Why is it important to have "that niche event"?

Why does it matter that you made some 15 puzzle videos 3 years ago? Everyone and their grandma has solved one of those.




tx789 said:


> Clock is a very neglected event so why add a event that is similar.



1. How is a 15 puzzle similar to clock?
2. 15 puzzle would be way more popular than clock if it were added.

Mods please change thread title please.


EDIT: Just to clarify, I'm not saying that 15 puzzle would not be a good event. I just want to know why you think it is _the_ event that should be added.


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## Deleted member 19792 (Sep 11, 2013)

Noahaha said:


> You just keep saying things without giving a reason.
> 
> WCA should have that special event? Why? Why _should_ the WCA have an event that stands out from the rest?
> 
> ...




I don't think there is a history of added and removed events..
There is a niche for BLD 3BLD 4BLD 5BLD. This was sprouted out of interest. (My estimate is after Dan Sheppard "Of if you spell it that way" uploaded tutorials.

There was that niche for feet. People STILL like it

Then why don't we add a different kind of puzzle that is not as "Twisty" ?
It was very interesting to some people back then. The UWR is 6.6 seconds. My PB on cam was around 8 (I think)

I think the event should be added because of the popularity it kinda gained over the past few weeks. ANother reason is that you can dissect a method and make it waaaay faster.

I found around 20 cases for L8P today. It really helped me get quite a bit faster on the computer version xD


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## qqwref (Sep 11, 2013)

I don't think 15 puzzle is a good candidate for putting in the WCA.
- It has no connection to cubing, other than being a permutation puzzle that can be solved quickly. It is neither cubical, nor a twisty puzzle, nor something Rubik has his name on (although he has produced some variations).
- There are many 15 puzzles on the market, but I haven't heard if any mass-production brands that are known to be very good (suggesting the "community" of solvers needs more time to evolve).
- Although it is interesting to try to optimize the movecount, the puzzle itself is very easy to solve, and I would imagine that tps would be the most important limiting factor.


PS: The 6.6 video is obviously set up.


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## Daniel Wu (Sep 11, 2013)

Lol at the title of this thread.


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## Deleted member 19792 (Sep 11, 2013)

qqwref said:


> I don't think 15 puzzle is a good candidate for putting in the WCA.
> - It has no connection to cubing, other than being a permutation puzzle that can be solved quickly. It is neither cubical, nor a twisty puzzle, nor something Rubik has his name on (although he has produced some variations).
> - There are many 15 puzzles on the market, but I haven't heard if any mass-production brands that are known to be very good (suggesting the "community" of solvers needs more time to evolve).
> - Although it is interesting to try to optimize the movecount, the puzzle itself is very easy to solve, and I would imagine that tps would be the most important limiting factor.
> ...




Mine? Those are random hand scrambles.. But the WR, tbh, is just someone practicing the same scramble over and over again.

There is a Rubiks 15. But that is a huge variation of 15 puzzle.

The one at Barnes and Noble is really really really good after some break in time. If you can't find it, you can find a plastic one online, which can be good sometimes.


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## Noahaha (Sep 11, 2013)

strakerak said:


> I don't think there is a history of added and removed events..
> There is a niche for BLD 3BLD 4BLD 5BLD. This was sprouted out of interest. (My estimate is after Dan Sheppard "Of if you spell it that way" uploaded tutorials.
> 
> There was that niche for feet. People STILL like it
> ...



If you want to use the popularity argument, then Skewb should be added first, and the. 15 puzzle after about 3 years of people wanting it.


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## Deleted member 19792 (Sep 11, 2013)

Noahaha said:


> If you want to use the popularity argument, then Skewb should be added first, and the. 15 puzzle after about 3 years of people wanting it.



I was going to add in about the order of events that should be added. Skewb would have def. been #1. Its alot of fun and you can dissect methods. (Ranzha xD)


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## ~Adam~ (Sep 11, 2013)

No.

It does not have enough in common with any current event to consider it IMO.


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## rj (Sep 11, 2013)

strakerak said:


> I was going to add in about the order of events that should be added. Skewb would have def. been #1. Its alot of fun and you can dissect methods. (Ranzha xD)



Then 8x8 (& 9x9?). Then mirror blocks. Then 15 puzzle.


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## StachuK1992 (Sep 11, 2013)

Absolutely not. There is pretty much no case for this.


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## Deleted member 19792 (Sep 11, 2013)

There are varied opinions. I am suggesting it should be added just because of the fun and simplicity behind it


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## rj (Sep 11, 2013)

strakerak said:


> There are varied opinions. I am suggesting it should be added just because of the fun and simplicity behind it



Like a harder magic.


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## sneaklyfox (Sep 11, 2013)

rj said:


> Like a harder magic.



Nope. It's nothing like magic. Magic requires no real strategy, just fast hands. 15 puzzle has method and strategy involved. I voted "yes" on the poll because I think it would be fun to do 15 puzzle in competition, but actually I should have voted "no" because it doesn't really fit with what WCA is about. For that matter, I don't even think clock should be a WCA event for similar reasons. It's only on there because it's a "Rubik's" puzzle. If 15 puzzle were made by Rubik's, it would be equally valid as clock to be an event IMO. Personally, I think WCA should stick with "twisty" puzzles. Clock is the only one that doesn't fit that description. But who am I? I'm not trying to get rid of clock as an event. I'm just saying.


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## XTowncuber (Sep 11, 2013)

I like how Ben always has the best logic, and gets all blame for it. Why the heck would we add 15 puzzle? It's not twisty and there aren't any good ones available. I don't see any reason for it over any of the other events that are constantly suggested.

Personally, I think we should add pyra BLD and gigaminx.


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## Ninja Storm (Sep 11, 2013)

I think we should have an event called 7x7 version 2, where we'd just have another round of 7x7. It's a niche thing because now there are two ways to have 7x7 at a competition. It's a twisty puzzle. 7x7 is getting popular and now people have a way to do it more.


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## tx789 (Sep 11, 2013)

Noahaha said:


> 1. How is a 15 puzzle similar to clock?
> 2. 15 puzzle would be way more popular than clock if it were added.
> 
> Mods please change thread title please.
> ...



When it comes to solving but they are both easy puzzles to solve. It also doesn't have algs you need to learn just like clock. Have you ever seen clock algs?


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## Noahaha (Sep 11, 2013)

Strakerak, you are not making any good arguments for the event, but merely asserting that you think it should be added. Furthermore you are insulting people who provide logical arguments against what you are saying. In addition (this is the worst part) half the things you say don't make any sense. I don't know if you're spouting random words or just not making any effort to articulate your points, but turning everyone against you would not be a good way to get anyone to agree with you, even if you had a better proposal.



tx789 said:


> *When it comes to solving but they are both easy puzzles to solve. It also doesn't have algs you need to learn* just like clock. Have you ever seen clock algs?



There are so many puzzles that fit this description. The comparison just isn't relevant.


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## tx789 (Sep 11, 2013)

Noahaha said:


> Strakerak, you are not making any good arguments for the event, but merely asserting that you think it should be added. Furthermore you are insulting people who provide logical arguments against what you are saying. In addition (this is the worst part) half the things you say don't make any sense. I don't know if you're spouting random words or just not making any effort to articulate your points, but turning everyone against you would not be a good way to get anyone to agree with you, even if you had a better proposal.
> 
> 
> 
> There are so many puzzles that fit this description. The comparison just isn't relevant.



All I am saying is that they are both puzzles so basic algs are completely nonexistent and pointlessand that's why the 15 puzzle shouldn't be added. Also how am I insulting people.


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## Noahaha (Sep 11, 2013)

tx789 said:


> It's not so much you don't need need algs it's just they don't exist and are pointless. Clock is the only official event like this, where learning algs are pointless. The 15 puzzle shouldn't be official. A lot of puzzles may fit that description. I am just saying adding this is like adding another clock event but in stead the puzzle is a slide puzzle rather than whatever you want to call clock. They both don't need algs due to being a very basic puzzle



But that's such a loose connection. The puzzles are still vastly different. That's like saying Skewb shouldn't be added because it's movecount is similar to 2x2. Might as well remove feet because we already have an event that restricts what part of the body you can use. We should probably remove megaminx as well since you can use similar techniques as you do in 3x3.


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## Branflakeftw (Sep 11, 2013)

sneaklyfox said:


> Nope. It's nothing like magic. Magic requires no real strategy, just fast hands. 15 puzzle has method and strategy involved. I voted "yes" on the poll because I think it would be fun to do 15 puzzle in competition, but actually I should have voted "no" because it doesn't really fit with what WCA is about. For that matter, I don't even think clock should be a WCA event for similar reasons. It's only on there because it's a "Rubik's" puzzle. If 15 puzzle were made by Rubik's, it would be equally valid as clock to be an event IMO. Personally, I think WCA should stick with "twisty" puzzles. Clock is the only one that doesn't fit that description. But who am I? I'm not trying to get rid of clock as an event. I'm just saying.


I definitely agree. I LOVE solving the 15 puzzle.. but it doesn't generally fit in with twisty puzzles like other wca event puzzles do.. It has more logic and strategy than magic, and that *was* a wca event. And it seems somewhat like clock in its AMOUNT of strategic solving (they are definitely way different concepts). I think it would be a nice addition to competitions. So yes  Please let me know if I am clearly wrong about something xD


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## tx789 (Sep 11, 2013)

Noahaha said:


> But that's such a loose connection. The puzzles are still vastly different. That's like saying Skewb shouldn't be added because it's movecount is similar to 2x2. Might as well remove feet because we already have an event that restricts what part of the body you can use. We should probably remove megaminx as well since you can use similar techniques as you do in 3x3.



They are different. They may have loose connection but then again all you could find connections between any two puzzles.


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## Noahaha (Sep 11, 2013)

tx789 said:


> They are different. They may have loose connection but then again all you could find connections between any two puzzles.



That's exactly what I'm saying. There are loose connections between all puzzles, so the loose connection you found between clock and 15 puzzle is not significant.


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## AvGalen (Sep 12, 2013)

Clock and 15 are similar because you can just "move 1 piece without influencing others". Clock is slightly more difficult in this situation because pieces on the other side move. 15 Puzzle is slight more difficult because you cannot move every piece all the time. NEITHER are interesting puzzles.
If we would not have Clock now, we wouldn't add clock
We don't have 15 now, we will not add 15

Isn't everyone getting sick of all these "let's add/remove puzzle X"- threads?
Or are people really tired of the current events and all of these threads are a generic message to the WCA that they should "mix it up a little"?


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## YddEd (Sep 12, 2013)

rj said:


> Then *8x8 & 9x9*. Then mirror blocks. Then 15 puzzle.


You want events that take over 5 mins to solve?


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## ryanj92 (Sep 12, 2013)

AvGalen said:


> Clock and 15 are similar because you can just "move 1 piece without influencing others". Clock is slightly more difficult in this situation because pieces on the other side move. 15 Puzzle is slight more difficult because you cannot move every piece all the time. NEITHER are interesting puzzles.
> If we would not have Clock now, we wouldn't add clock
> We don't have 15 now, we will not add 15
> 
> ...



Maybe instead of cubes we should just have the 'brick' cuboids 
The Rubiks fifteen probably has a stronger case for being added than the classic 15 puzzle, it just lacks the support xD


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## TMOY (Sep 12, 2013)

XTowncuber said:


> Personally, I think we should add pyra BLD and gigaminx.


Pyra BLD: no, too easily speedblindable.
Gigaminx: no, takes too long.

Back on topic, I don't really care about 15 puzzle and whether it should be added or not.


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## XTowncuber (Sep 12, 2013)

TMOY said:


> Pyra BLD: no, too easily speedblindable.
> Gigaminx: no, takes too long.


Was totally being sarcastic.


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## rj (Sep 12, 2013)

YddEd said:


> You want events that take over 5 mins to solve?



I only said 8x8. It can take ~5.5 mins IMO.


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## Stefan (Sep 12, 2013)

rj said:


> I only said 8x8.



We can still see that you said "& 9x9".


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## rj (Sep 12, 2013)

Stefan said:


> We can still see that you said "& 9x9".



Then I wasn't thinking clearly. 

EDIT: Fixed


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## Carrot (Sep 12, 2013)

On topic: scrambling is annoying!

But beside that YES!



strakerak said:


> But was Megaminx made by Rubiks? Sorry



If I am not mistaken, these are the copyright owners:
2x2x2,3x3x3,clock= Rubik's
4x4x4,5x5x5,pyraminx,megaminx=Meffert's
6x6x6,7x7x7=V-cube
square-1=no idea.


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## Sa967St (Sep 12, 2013)

Thread closed.


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