# Double Standard with Pirating - Music vs. Video Games



## ajmorgan25 (Dec 31, 2009)

Hey guys,

Like most of you, along with cubing I also play video games during some of my free time. Although I don't play as much as I used to, I occasionally browse the GameSpot forums mostly because I've had an account with GameSpot.com since Oct 18, 2004. I was an active poster back then, but now I kind of just check in for old time's sake. anyway, I made a thread on there about video game and music piracy and I decided to post it here as well. I hope I can hear some input from you guys.

While I won't say whether or not I pirate video games and/or music, I've begun to notice something that's rather interesting. As far as music is concerned, almost everybody I know (I'm in college so I'm referring to that age group) downloads their music illegally. This is something that everybody openly does and doesn't hesitate to admit to. While most people will admit that it is wrong to some extent, they shrug their shoulders and continue to download anyway.

On the other hand, I've noticed that within the gaming community, primarily the PC gaming community, the mere thought of pirating a video game brings in a horde of dedicated gamers that swear they have never pirated a game and will never do so. Most of this is in hopes of future sequels being produced by the same developer. Along with potential for future games, much of the community seems to admit that it is downright wrong to do so because you're stealing money from the developers and eventually taking food off of their plates.

Despite the strong protest against pirating, numbers don't lie. The number of people pirating video games is extremely high and I can't help but think that many of the people on this forum pirate and speak against it at the same time. I think most of this protection against video game piracy is due simply to the high price of video games. Pirating a 99¢ copy of music is no big hit to Lady GaGa, but a $49.99-$59.99 game is a big hit to the game artists, programmers and the rest of the development team. So, I was wondering. Do you think there is a double standard with pirating between the video game industry and the music industry?​
Somebody on the GameSpot forums mentioned this and I've thought about it before too. Even with music piracy, music will still be around. Artists can make money off of public appearances promoting their music, advertisements, concerts, radio, etc. Does anyone think that this in a way justifies illegally downloading music? In other words, music will eventually be free and artists will make money strictly off concerts, we're just at that bump in the road before it happens.


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## Zarxrax (Dec 31, 2009)

Well, I don't hold a double standard about it. I pirate both my music and my games. 
I pirate my music mostly just because the music that I listen to isn't even available in this country.
I pirate games because it's just something to do. I'm not a hardcore gamer like I was when I was younger, so I don't care that much about gaming. If I wasn't pirating the games that I play, I wouldn't be buying them either, so its no money out of the developers pocket. And even when I do pirate my games, I typically play them for just a few hours and then never bother to load it up again.
The exception is that I occasionally buy a few games off of steam, because
- i can play them online with my friends
- the prices are usually pretty fair
- its more convenient than pirating them


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## blade740 (Dec 31, 2009)

I think there's a fundamental difference: most musicians make as much money from live shows as from music sales. A game studio usually makes virtually all of its profit from game sales/subscriptions.


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## LewisJ (Dec 31, 2009)

blade740 said:


> I think there's a fundamental difference: most musicians make *almost all their* money from live shows *and very little* from music sales. A game studio usually makes virtually all of its profit from game sales/subscriptions.



fixed


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## Mike Hughey (Dec 31, 2009)

LewisJ said:


> blade740 said:
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> > I think there's a fundamental difference: most musicians make *almost all their* money from live shows *while the greedy music industry people make theirs* from music sales. A game studio usually makes virtually all of its profit from game sales/subscriptions.
> ...



Now it's really fixed.


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## ajmorgan25 (Dec 31, 2009)

Mike Hughey said:


> LewisJ said:
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+1 Mike.


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## kprox1994 (Dec 31, 2009)

I download roms of old school games but I buy all my current-gen games.


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## Kian (Dec 31, 2009)

It's intellectual property theft either way. Whether you choose to rationalize one or the other or both is your own prerogative, but there is no fundamental difference here.

@Blade470- You could call that a difference, but it's really a secondary consequence, hardly fundamental. The fundamental issue is about intellectual property rights, not means of income.


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## aronpm (Dec 31, 2009)

I will openly admit to piracy. I pirate music, movies, applications and games. I don't download games or apps often, because I don't run Windows. I obviously don't pirate console games (I don't even know if that's possible), I buy those games. I do pirate ROMs for GBA/SNES/N64, though. Back when I was running Windows, I still didn't pirate games, because they were difficult to get working. Applications can be rediculously expensive, like Photoshop or 3dsax.

I have no moral problem with piracy. If I find a small band that is unsigned, I might buy their album. But, if they are signed to a record label, I will not buy their album, because my money would go to the label and not the band. I refuse to give money to companies that are willing to invade the rights of people with ridiculous laws like Three Strikes or computer surveillance.

I will gladly pirate TV series. I've downloaded a few TV shows. Why should I wait for 2 years to see a TV series? The people that make the show are losing no money from me, whether I watch the show now or in two years. I will certainly buy the disc sets when they come out.


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## ajmorgan25 (Dec 31, 2009)

Kian said:


> The fundamental issue is about intellectual property rights, not means of income.



Exactly. Unfortunately, many people cannot take a stance without letting their emotions taking complete control of them. Everything is all right as long as you're stealing money from the greedy, money hungry producers. The amount of money they make has no connection when I decide whether or not one is wrong or the other isn't. In the end, I hate double standards, so I say pirate both or neither.


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## ajmorgan25 (Dec 31, 2009)

aronpm said:


> If I find a small band that is unsigned, I might buy their album.



You actually bring up a "rule" that I've kind of set up for myself. I pirate almost all of my music. On the other hand, if the artist is truly talented (in the studio and live), then I respect the artist enough and I will usually buy their music. For example, I would not buy a blink182 album but I would buy a Muse album. 

I guess most of this comes from my days in my high school drum line. I spent so much time into giving quality live performances, that I have no respect for big name artists who make millions and give amateur live performances. :cough: Kanye West :cough:


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## gpt_kibutz (Dec 31, 2009)

I do not support personally piracy in my own personal life. However, I think that the actions that the music industry people, software producers (Microsoft particularly), and movie distributors take against piracy are completely stupid. The solution to stop piracy is not to develop new ways of avoiding the copy of material (such as more security in the game or movie DVD's), but to realize that piracy is nothing more than the expression of the consumers, who think that paying 50 dollars for an xbox game is way too much. In my country, for example, a game costs about 92 dollar wich is just insane. Do you really know what is the cost of producing 1 music CD? I assure you it is less than 2 dollars. I think that piracy is just the expression of the free market world (in other words of capitalism)


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## ajmorgan25 (Dec 31, 2009)

luisgepeto said:


> I think that piracy is just the expression of the free market world (in other words of capitalism)


Take a Microeconomics class and your teacher will tell you that you're right. Piracy = Black Market.


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## qqwref (Dec 31, 2009)

Mike Hughey said:


> LewisJ said:
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Quoted for truth.


Personally I don't like spending money on something unless I'm really going to use it a lot (or unless I'm collecting it), so I mostly go with free legal stuff such as free online games and the music found in youtube videos. While I know getting free stuff illegally is wrong, in practice I'll do it but only if it's easily available and if I don't expect to use it a lot. My rationale is that I wouldn't buy it (even if it wasn't easily available) and thus am not harming the creator of the music/game. I don't ever make illegally copied stuff freely available (on P2P networks, for instance) because that really can harm the work's creator.

The way I feel about this is that if you get something you don't expect to use a huge amount for free it's not any different (from the creator's standpoint) as if you borrowed a movie/book/game from a library/rental store. Borrowing stuff isn't looked on as wrong (and isn't illegal), so morally I don't feel guilty if I watch a TV show online or download a game just to try it out. Although legally there's a big difference, morally I don't see one, because if I wouldn't buy the thing for the sale price I'm not hurting the creator by seeing it without buying it.


@luisgepeto: I forget the exact statistics, but I saw something on slashdot which stated that out of the cost of a CD a few dollars goes to manufacturing and shipping, a surprisingly small number of cents goes to the artist, and the rest goes to various people along the supply chain from artist to consumer. At least with music you can individually buy songs on iTunes... with games there is often no such option.


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## Johannes91 (Dec 31, 2009)

I respect the idea of copyright and gladly pay for books/movies/etc. that are less than 10 years old or so.

On the other hand, I have zero respect for the letter of the law. While it's not as ridiculous here as it is in the US, it's getting there and has completely lost its original purpose. Why the hell should a book written 60 years ago, the author of which died almost as long ago, still be under copyright? People who call downloading and reading a copy of something like that "pirating" and "intellectual property theft" need to switch their brains on and do some thinking.

I've learned a lot about copyright and patents from reading slashdot, there are many people commenting there who clearly have a lot of knowledge and common sense.


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## F1Z2L3 (Dec 31, 2009)

I'm completely opposed to digital distribution. I used to use p2p apps and torrents for a while but stopped a long time ago. I've been screwed over too many times by drm too. Now I only rip my music lossless.


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## LNZ (Dec 31, 2009)

I have obtained music through P2P file sharing. I try to avoid it where I can. But there are times where it has to be used.

There is a general rule in IT and the digital age. The providers of such technology do things right 90% of the tme. But it is the missing 10% people always complain about.


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## 4Chan (Dec 31, 2009)

Since, in the forum awards section, I have nominations for best and worst use of memes.


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## aronpm (Dec 31, 2009)

4Chan said:


> Since, in the forum awards section, I have nominations for best and worst use of memes.



I openly confess to having that song on my iPod. And a lot of other meme songs.


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## Muesli (Dec 31, 2009)

aronpm said:


> 4Chan said:
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> > Since, in the forum awards section, I have nominations for best and worst use of memes.
> ...


I openly confess to having that song as my ringtone.


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## Bryan (Dec 31, 2009)

qqwref said:


> At least with music you can individually buy songs on iTunes... with games there is often no such option.



You would want to buy game levels separately?

I always thought that the game developers shy away from that because they didn't want people to realize their game sucks.


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## FatBoyXPC (Dec 31, 2009)

qqwref said:


> Mike Hughey said:
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I kept that QFT in there because that's so true.

Actually there is Steam. I know it doesn't have ALL the games you can buy, but Steam has definitely come a long way.

Also, the amount of money artists make: usually less than 1% of the sale of the CD. The CD prices are only so high so people can get rich, it's nowhere near the cost. If you guys think about it, paying $0.99 USD for a song on iTunes, that's almost just as much at buying the cd (usually less than 5 dollars more to get the physical copy) and you get the artwork and stuff with it, if you care about that. If you just google the whole topic of how much money artists make from each sale, it's honestly less than 1%. Let's put that in perspective: Band X sells 100,000 copies of their album at $15 a pop. That's 1,500,000, and 1% of that is 150,000. Let's just say there are 5 members int his band, we're looking at 30,000. That is nothing. Let's not forget a lot of this 1% goes BACK into the record company anyway to pay back what they might have used for recording, or advertisement contract, etc.

Welcome to the American way. Lie, Cheat, and Steal.


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## anythingtwisty (Dec 31, 2009)

I try to buy music and games, because I like supporting the work that goes into them. However, if the game is not being produced anymore, or I have a copy of the game, I do sometimes pirate ROMs. I buy all of my music.


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## HALLU (Dec 31, 2009)

I try to buy both my music and my games, but usually fails because I can't afford it all.. I eventually buy what I've downloaded though..


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## Bryan (Dec 31, 2009)

HALLU said:


> I try to buy both my music and my games, but usually fails because I can't afford it all.. I eventually buy what I've downloaded though..



So by this logic, you shoplift too, right? 

As for eventually buying what you've downloaded, go ahead and figure out the number of songs you've pirated and let us know what the count it.


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## Muesli (Dec 31, 2009)

I buy all my music in CD form besides the odd song. I've only ever torrented one album. I can't get an itunes account either because they don't support Paypal. If they did, I would buy all my music.


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## JLarsen (Dec 31, 2009)

I pirate music because I listen to metal, and despite what people say about p2p apps hurting the metal industry, it is actually helping it. Metal bands don't sell garbage for albums, since the music is so underground. They have no means of spreading their names on the radio, television, so the internet makes perfect grounds for spreading your name, and getting people to come see you perform live. 

As for pirating games, I will stop when I get a computer that will run the games with confidence, and I play newer, more modern games. My computer as of now can only play games made no later than 2005, Maybe maxing out at games like Half Life 2, which have long since lost their profits. Games die out rather quickly.


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## bwatkins (Dec 31, 2009)

ajmorgan25 said:


> Pirating a 99¢ copy of music is no big hit to Lady GaGa.
> 
> In other words, music will eventually be free and artists will make money strictly off concerts, we're just at that bump in the road before it happens.



I DO believe that a 99 c song pirated is a big deal. Think if this song is pirated / stolen from the artist 5,000 times. This is a very large problem.

Also, i do not believe that music will EVER be LEGALLY free. Artists do not make near enough from concerts to continue producing music the way they do. 
Album sales are crucial. Consider a classic rock band that no longer tours on large scale. Lynard Skynard released 5 albums from 1973 - 1977. Since then 5 other albums have been released and NOTHING NEAR THE CONCERT REVENUE OF TEH 70'S HAS BEEN COLLECTED. If there was no payment for albums bands like this, and all bands, would simply no longer be able to produce albums.

I have played an instrument since i was 6 and been in many bands. I WILL NOT pirate music as i feel as if i am doing an injustice to the artists.


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## masterofthebass (Dec 31, 2009)

bwatkins said:


> ajmorgan25 said:
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> ...



if you understood anything about the music industry, you would know that the performers make about $.07 for every song on an album (a little more if they composed it). What piracy really hurts is the record labels. Performers really don't make their money off of album sales, but instead the things that album sales lead to.


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## bwatkins (Dec 31, 2009)

masterofthebass said:


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Aggreed, i may be lacking some knowledge. However wheter it hurts the artists or labels that support them, it still hurts the industry as a whole.


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## ajmorgan25 (Dec 31, 2009)

bwatkins said:


> ajmorgan25 said:
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Obviously I wrote that in a way that wasn't very understandable, since you and someone on GameSpot didn't understand what I meant. I'm not saying that stealing the 99 cents from Lady GaGa is no big deal, but most people who illegally download songs don't think it's a big deal because in their minds it's only 99 cents. I wasn't talking about myself, I was talking about the general public.


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## bwatkins (Dec 31, 2009)

ajmorgan25 said:


> bwatkins said:
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I wasn't meaning to argue, just use the text as a way to make a point.


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