# 3x3 With Feet Getting Removed



## AidanNoogie (Dec 2, 2018)

https://github.com/thewca/wca-regulations/issues/652

So 3x3 with feet is getting removed soon. Thoughts?


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## CarterK (Dec 2, 2018)

The fact that it's getting removed based off of the vote of 6 WRC members is just crazy. This was really unexpected. 

WRC members who voted on this:

-competes consistently, has had 9 nrs in the event
-7:23 single, hasnt competed since 2012
-3:16 mean, hasnt competed since 2015
-6:46 mean, competed 3 times in 2016
-never competed
-never competed


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## DGCubes (Dec 2, 2018)

I definitely don't support this. I would like to see it open to a bigger community vote (or at least a delegate vote).

Unlike Magic and Master Magic, Feet doesn't have any inherent flaws that prevent it from being held accurately. I understand that it's objectively unpopular, but some events will naturally be more popular than others, and its popularity has only been increasing in recent years. I also think the fact that it's such a spectator-friendly event is a big deal that shouldn't be overlooked. I really want to see cubing grow as a spectator sport, and weird/interesting events like Feet only make that more doable. I don't know many people (cubers or non-cubers) who would want to watch even the fastest of 7x7 solves, but a world class Feet solve is just plain fun to watch.

I recognize my bias as a Feet solver, but we also need to recognize the inherent bias in many of those arguing for this event to be removed. "I think it's stupid" and "I think it's good" are not valid reasons to keep or remove an event. Feet isn't hurting anyone by staying in the WCA (as far as I'm aware; feel free to provide evidence to the contrary if you have it). However, a non-negligible percentage of cubers are disappointed at its removal.


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## CarterK (Dec 2, 2018)

Rubix Noob said:


> I think feet should be removed, idk really why it just doesn't seem like a good WCA event.
> Not that I like the way they did it, though. I think they should've had a public vote or something. It would have been a way better way to decide, and I (and I assume others) would be happier with either result.


Not liking an event is not a reason to remove it. If there are objective reasons to remove the event and that's why you dislike it, then that's fine however.


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## turtwig (Dec 2, 2018)

Like others have said, feet being removed based off of lack of popularity alone is somewhat contradictory as events like big bld have even less participation. If feet can be removed on these grounds, I think 5BLD is an even better candidate for removal, as it has much less participation and is also very similar to 4BLD whereas no event is similar to feet.


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## EMI (Dec 2, 2018)

This is the right step, even though it will cause a lot of hate for the WCA. Speedcubing is becoming more mature, and absurd events like magic and feet solving are a relict from the early years. Especially feet has made competitions look really weird, because it is the kind of thing that stands out in media coverage.
Of course, many have become good at the event, so for them it is unfortunate. But I bet if feet had never been an official discipline in the first place, nobody would argue to add it, nowadays.
5BLD has fewer participants only because it is so difficult. When I talk to outsiders about cubing, they are usually very impressed that it is possible.


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## Waffle Cuber (Dec 2, 2018)

DGCubes said:


> I definitely don't support this. I would like to see it open to a bigger community vote (or at least a delegate vote).
> 
> Unlike Magic and Master Magic, Feet doesn't have any inherent flaws that prevent it from being held accurately. I understand that it's objectively unpopular, but some events will naturally be more popular than others, and its popularity has only been increasing in recent years. I also think the fact that it's such a spectator-friendly event is a big deal that shouldn't be overlooked. I really want to see cubing grow as a spectator sport, and weird/interesting events like Feet only make that more doable. I don't know many people (cubers or non-cubers) who would want to watch even the fastest of 7x7 solves, but a world class Feet solve is just plain fun to watch.
> 
> I recognize my bias as a Feet solver, but we also need to recognize the inherent bias in many of those arguing for this event to be removed. "I think it's stupid" and "I think it's good" are not valid reasons to keep or remove an event. Feet isn't hurting anyone by staying in the WCA (as far as I'm aware; feel free to provide evidence to the contrary if you have it). However, a non-negligible percentage of cubers are disappointed at its removal.


I agree. Good point. It’s a fun event that I’ve always liked. I think the WCA has taken a step in the wrong direction with this decision. At least do a public vote. Nobody was complaining that much about it.


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## Sajwo (Dec 2, 2018)

very good decision. feet make cubers looks like some weirdos


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## One Wheel (Dec 2, 2018)

There are a few very good reasons that feet ought to be maintained as an official event:

Because it is harder to turn quickly and reliably with feet, TPS is limited. Therefore Feet fills a gap between OH and FMC with regard to rewarding efficiency. 

Because fewer people compete in feet it is actually encouraging to newer cubers. Competitive times are achievable without exceptional talent or thousands of hours of practice. 

It looks ridiculous. I know this has been cited as a reason to eliminate it, but hear me out: we are playing with a kids toy and taking it seriously. We are ridiculous, embrace it or we look really ridiculous. If you want to look dignified take up competitive carriage driving or become a butler. When somebody solves a Rubik’s cube in 4 seconds the natural response from the public is “that’s ridiculous, I could never do that,” and they’re probably right. When somebody solves a cube with their feet the natural response is more along the line of “that’s ridiculous, but kind of cool, too.” The line that “there’s no such thing as bad press” isn’t always true, but in this case it is.


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## 1973486 (Dec 2, 2018)

EMI said:


> But I bet if feet had never been an official discipline in the first place, nobody would argue to add it, nowadays.



You're right. But I sometimes wonder how many other events this would apply to. I feel like the set of events we have today are largely based on the preferences of a few people back in 2003/2004.


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## ichcubegerne (Dec 2, 2018)

For me it really depends. I get why feet will be removed and I think its a good decision. However you can make pretty similar arguments for 5BLD, MultiBLD and Clock and if you remove feet then you also have to remove these 3 imo. The only difference between feet and these 3 is that feet is seen as gross by a lot of people. This does not seem like it is an argument that should hold the other 3 events in the WCA. So if they remove feet but not at least one or two of the 3 named events then I think I can come to the conclusion that personal preference played a big role in that vote and this just makes me skeptical towards this decision.


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## Tabe (Dec 3, 2018)

ichcubegerne said:


> For me it really depends. I get why feet will be removed and I think its a good decision. However you can make pretty similar arguments for 5BLD, MultiBLD and Clock and if you remove feet then you also have to remove these 3 imo. The only difference between feet and these 3 is that feet is seen as gross by a lot of people. This does not seem like it is an argument that should hold the other 3 events in the WCA. So if they remove feet but not at least one or two of the 3 named events then I think I can come to the conclusion that personal preference played a big role in that vote and this just makes me skeptical towards this decision.


Well, the reason it's seen as gross is because of the obvious smell, hygiene, and sanitary issues. The three events you mention have none of those issues.


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## One Wheel (Dec 3, 2018)

ichcubegerne said:


> personal preference played a big role in that vote and this just makes me skeptical towards this decision.



Ahem. Feliks.


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## CornerCutter (Dec 3, 2018)

Very surprising! This should be voted on by a bigger segment of the WCA or have super good reasons for removing it.

Edit: Other events have less popularity then feet. Not a good reason to remove it.


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## Hazel (Dec 3, 2018)

I have zero interest in feet solving, but I'm sad to see it go since so many people have put so much work into improving at it and now that hard work is going to waste. I think they should focus their efforts on adding more events!


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## ichcubegerne (Dec 3, 2018)

Tabe said:


> Well, the reason it's seen as gross is because of the obvious smell, hygiene, and sanitary issues. The three events you mention have none of those issues.


I am pretty sure that this is more a mental thing. But besides that the popularity of bigBLD is WAY worse then the feet popularity. Also it is way more time consuming to hold bigBLD. Same goes for Multi BLD. In Clock there is a huge problem with scramblers and judges because of the pins. This makes up the feet reasons imo.


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## GenTheThief (Dec 3, 2018)

I strongly disagree with this decision. Many valid points have been made in this thread that I think show that this event definitely should be kept.

Also, Bob Burton replied to the github thread, and among other things, said this:


> While there was no community vote (nor do we have the means in place to have one yet), there was a vote among Delegates last year.



So a vote did go out to delegates, and I assume, based on the board's decision, that the majority voted against keeping feet.


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## Loser (Dec 3, 2018)

That delegate vote went out a year ago, asking if they should put forward the plan from a year ago. I haven't seen anything about a delegate poll for this decision.
Also I would strongly recommend people read the Github thread now, with all of the messages so far.
There is also a petition against the removal.
https://www.change.org/p/world-cube-association-keep-the-3x3x3-with-feet-event-official


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## Sue Doenim (Dec 3, 2018)

3x3 with feet getting removed? That sounds like an incredibly painful event. I can't imagine solving a cube while someone is detaching my feet from my legs. Also, how would there be an average in the event? You can only have your feet removed one time, so how will you get an average time solving a cube while having feet removed? Only an event for the most hardcore cubers, I guess.


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## AbsoRuud (Dec 3, 2018)

I personally think solving a 3x3x3 with feet is incredibly silly. So I have no problems with it being removed.

But it's pretty sad for people who are good at it that it's getting removed.

How about we add 2x2x2 OH instead and put the Rubik's Magic back, but instead of just going from solved state A to solved state B, it actually gets scrambled into a random state and people have to solve it that way?


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## Faz (Dec 3, 2018)

One Wheel said:


> Ahem. Feliks.



You called?

Fantastic to hear that this event is on the way out.

1. The puzzle adds almost nothing new in terms of puzzle solving techniques, the only new 'skill' here is being able to manipulate the cube with your feet.
2. Not only is it difficult and time-consuming to run, it also requires a significant financial investment from delegates/organisers who want to hold the event (for a new set of timers, mats, gloves etc). In Australia, we have 5-6 cities with regular competitions, and transporting the 3x3WF equipment between those is also rather impractical. (hence, we've only ever held 3x3WF in one city)
3. It's unpopular. The delegate vote on feet and the decision to change the format to average of 5 (as they have done with previous events in the past) didn't do much to change the frequency at which it is held at competitions. Just over 2% of WCA competitors have ever competed in feet. Anecdotally, even some of the really fast feetsolvers think it's a joke, and some other cubers perhaps only participate in it for the sake of WCA profile completeness, and unofficial statistics like SoR, Kinch, Nemesizing, etc.
4. This one is just my opinion, but I think it looks quite unprofessional and has a negative effect on the image of speedcubing to the wider world. Whether or not we should care about this is another question, I think yes.
5. Also my opinion, there are already too many events in the WCA. At our 2-day Australian Nationals, we barely had time to fit in one FMC attempt, one MultiBLD attempt, and weren't able to host as many rounds of other events as we would have liked. Removing feet will free up time at competitions to host more popular events, or make schedules more relaxed which may have marginal effects on reducing scrambler/judge errors.

Sure, #1 also applies to one-handed solving and perhaps 7x7 solving, #2 and #3 apply to Clock and Big/MultiBLD, but I'm sure that the WCA delegates who voted on this matter over a year ago had more than just these criteria in mind. If 3x3WF did not currently exist, I very much doubt there would be anyone campaigning to add it to WCA competitions.


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## DhruvA (Dec 3, 2018)

I completely disagree. I think feet is a pretty unique event that requires skill. There are many events in the WCA that don't add anything new to the puzzle, just a new way of solving it (e.g. 3x3 OH, 3x3 BLD, 4x4 BLD, 5x5 BLD, 3x3 MBLD, 3x3 FMC).

Sanitation- I don't know how people think that 3x3 Feet is gross or disgusting or has any other sanitation issues.
Having new timers doesn't really make sense. The most you are going to get on the timer is some dust or sweat (which can be the case with hands as well) and to fix that maybe just wipe the timer pads with a paper napkin or sanitary wipes and the scramblers can wash their hands after the event is done. For me, I do sweat sometimes and I wipe that off with a towel that I keep with me when I am competing because sweat doesn't really help solves, it makes them worse.

Popularity- The popularity has increased by 29% (as of 3/12/18) since 1/1/18 and people are getting very fast at it.
For example, the World Record went down by about 17% for average and single. So I don't see it as an issue.
The case of just 2% of people competing in it is just that it takes more skill and people have their own opinions of what events they like. Also might be because a lot of cubers in the WCA don't do many events, specifically new cubers and people who don't start off with a lot of events at first but slowly get into other events.

"Doesn't look professional" thing- As a feet solver myself, I have gotten some media attention in my state for feet solving and so do lots of other cubers.
For example, Rami Sbahi was invited to America's got Talent as he was noticed for his Feet solves. So I don't think there's a problem of a so-called "negative effect on the image of speedcubing".

Takes up time at competitions- I have organised 2 comps with feet in them and also was staffing at many others and didn't really see an issue there. We use different mats for feet and that doesn't really take up time. IMO clock takes more time as you have to give out more resolves but I still respect it as an event even though I am not into clock solving. And also removing any event would save time at competitions.

At this point I think WCA should be adding more events because even though there's a growing community and to stay relevant, they have to satisfy the desires of cubers and not be removing events because more events will improve the number of people competing at comps.

These are my opinions so feel free to correct me if you want.


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## Loser (Dec 3, 2018)

Faz said:


> You called?
> 
> Fantastic to hear that this event is on the way out.
> 
> ...


To respond to your comments:

1. How does that argument not apply to OH? Also as many have said in the github thread, feet requires way more efficiency than 3x3 and OH. People learn hundreds of weird algs that are a few moves less and use B moves, F moves in bad combinations for 3x3 and OH. 

2. 8 Timers only costs ~240 USD on the speedstacks website, which for a 100 person person comp would only be 2.4 dollars per registration, and spread out over multiple comps that can easily be >$1.

3. The delegate vote on feet happened back in 2017, there wasn't one for actually removing it in 2018. Also, unofficial stats/WCA Profile completeness would be the only reasons I (and many others) would ever do BigBLD.

4. I take the opposite view on this. Any article about DRL or other feet solvers that I've seen have just been in awe of the skill.

5. If there is already too many events, why did we add skewb of 6x6/7x7? Major championships were already 3 days at this point. Also for scheduling, I'm hosting a comp with feet in a month, and we can have it run concurrently with another event as it is on different timers and uses very little staff resources. This makes it take up no time at all.


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## Sajwo (Dec 3, 2018)

DhruvA said:


> The case of just 2% of people competing in it is just that it takes more skill [...] Also might be because a lot of cubers in the WCA don't do many events[...]



XD.



DhruvA said:


> There are many events in the WCA that don't add anything new to the puzzle, just a new way of solving it (e.g. 3x3 OH, 3x3 BLD, 4x4 BLD, 5x5 BLD, 3x3 MBLD, 3x3 FMC).



3x3 FMC is probably the most unique event out there. Blinds are obviously similar to eachother, but that should not be reason to remove any of them. It's cool that we have sighted and blindfolded events. If anything, I'd love to have more of them.



DhruvA said:


> Sanitation- I don't know how people think that 3x3 Feet is gross or disgusting or has any other sanitation issues.



It's just the way it is. It's hard to encourage somebody to scramble or judge 3x3 WF. People don't like touching cubes that was used for this event and they don't enjoy crouching when judging or inspecting if the puzzle is solved right next to someone's feet.



DhruvA said:


> Popularity- The popularity has increased by 29% (as of 3/12/18) since 1/1/18 and people are getting very fast at it.
> For example, the World Record went down by about 17% for average and single. So I don't see it as an issue.



Just because WR has improved (by just *1 *person btw, WCA has more than 110 000 members), it doesn't mean it's getting more and more popular. This was explained by Lucas Garron anyway, so there is no point in arguing with WCA Board about this. It's not popular and everyone knows it. Everyone also knows why.




DhruvA said:


> "Doesn't look professional" thing- As a feet solver myself, I have gotten some media attention in my state for feet solving and so do lots of other cubers.
> For example, Rami Sbahi was invited to America's got Talent as he was noticed for his Feet solves. So I don't think there's a problem of a so-called "negative effect on the image of speedcubing".



Well, you must be really lucky then. From my experience, when I talk with people about competitions, they are always excited and interested. But if you mention that there is separate category for solving the cube with feet, they start to perceive us as some weirdos/nerds.. however you call it. And the funny thing is that they are right. It's simply easier not to talk about this aspect with other people.

Jakub Kipa appeared on a few TV shows and made few interviews in Poland. What I noticed is that he really don't enjoy speaking about it in media. It's all good for regular events though



DhruvA said:


> Takes up time at competitions- I have organised 2 comps with feet in them and also was staffing at many others and didn't really see an issue there. We use different mats for feet and that doesn't really take up time. IMO clock takes more time as you have to give out more resolves but I still respect it as an event even though I am not into clock solving. And also removing any event would save time at competitions.



Well, it takes time after all.


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## One Wheel (Dec 3, 2018)

Faz said:


> You called?
> 
> Fantastic to hear that this event is on the way out.
> 
> 1. The puzzle adds almost nothing new in terms of puzzle solving techniques, the only new 'skill' here is being able to manipulate the cube with your feet.



Look at the list of the fastest people at 2H, OH, and Feet. There is a lot of overlap between 2H and OH, but very little with feet. FMC rewards efficiency at the expense of all else, 2H is raw speed (both efficiency and TPS) at one time OH filled the gap between the two, but as people have gotten better at OH there is really very little gap between 2H and OH. Feet fills this gap.



Faz said:


> 4. This one is just my opinion, but I think it looks quite unprofessional and has a negative effect on the image of speedcubing to the wider world. Whether or not we should care about this is another question, I think yes.



The Rubik’s cube is a child’s toy. We are putting hundreds of hours and dollars into it, if not more. Of course it’s ridiculous. What’s really impressive is that people like you and Max and others have put so much work into a silly toy, and mastered it. Don’t get me wrong: it really is impressive, and I admire what you have accomplished, but it’s all the more impressive because what you’re starting with is so objectively silly. Own it.



Faz said:


> 5. Also my opinion, there are already too many events in the WCA. At our 2-day Australian Nationals, we barely had time to fit in one FMC attempt, one MultiBLD attempt, and weren't able to host as many rounds of other events as we would have liked. Removing feet will free up time at competitions to host more popular events, or make schedules more relaxed which may have marginal effects on reducing scrambler/judge errors.



There is room for discussion about removing events, but if events are going to be removed it should be trivial events first: clock, pyraminx, skewb, 2x2.



Faz said:


> If 3x3WF did not currently exist, I very much doubt there would be anyone campaigning to add it to WCA competitions.



Irrelevant. It is an event, the presumption should be to keep things the same unless there is a clear reason otherwise. In this case a lot of work has been put into feet solving, and if the work had been put in without it being an official event (which it would not have been) then there would be many people, myself included, campaigning to add it. Work has been done, progress has been made, it is as unfair to the people who have done that work to remove the event as it would be to you to remove 6x6 or 7x7.


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## Sajwo (Dec 3, 2018)

One Wheel said:


> if events are going to be removed it should be trivial events first: clock, pyraminx, skewb, 2x2.



I don't agree. Every event is trivial if you know the method (exception is 4BLD and 5BLD).


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## One Wheel (Dec 3, 2018)

Sajwo said:


> Every event is trivial if you know the method


That’s a big if. Surely we can agree that there is a range of triviality in WCA events, 4BLD and 5BLD are on one end; clock, pyraminx, skewb, and 2x2 are at the other?


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## Loser (Dec 3, 2018)

Clock isn't that trivial, its just dumb.
Pyraminx is the most trivial IMO, then 2x2, then skewb, then clock.


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## porkynator (Dec 3, 2018)

One Wheel said:


> Look at the list of the fastest people at 2H, OH, and Feet. There is a lot of overlap between 2H and OH, but very little with feet. FMC rewards efficiency at the expense of all else, 2H is raw speed (both efficiency and TPS) at one time OH filled the gap between the two, but as people have gotten better at OH there is really very little gap between 2H and OH. Feet fills this gap.



Feet has nothing to do with FMC. It is a speedsolving event just like 3x3 and OH, you just use a different body part.
The main difference between FMC and anything else is that you can try out different solutions and pick the best one. It's not just about doing a normal solve while trying to be efficient.


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## One Wheel (Dec 3, 2018)

porkynator said:


> Feet has nothing to do with FMC. It is a speedsolving event just like 3x3 and OH, you just use a different body part.
> The main difference between FMC and anything else is that you can try out different solutions and pick the best one. It's not just about doing a normal solve while trying to be efficient.


Because TPS is limited in feet it effectively rewards efficiency. FMC is absolute efficiency, feet is a balance of efficiency and dexterity.


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## mark49152 (Dec 3, 2018)

One Wheel said:


> FMC is absolute efficiency, feet is a balance of efficiency and dexterity.


Feet is linear, FMC is not.


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## One Wheel (Dec 3, 2018)

mark49152 said:


> Feet is linear, FMC is not.


Perhaps a better analogy would be to compare feet to linear FMC. The point is that method matters, and while in 2H and OH which faces you turn is more important than how many times you turn them, in both feet and FMC how many times you turn them is more important than which ones are turned.


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## Sajwo (Dec 3, 2018)

One Wheel said:


> Perhaps a better analogy would be to compare feet to linear FMC. The point is that method matters, and while in 2H and OH which faces you turn is more important than how many times you turn them, in both feet and FMC how many times you turn them is more important than which ones are turned.



And why does that even matter?


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## Loser (Dec 3, 2018)

Feet algs can often be F B R L which would be bad for 2h and horrible for OH


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## mark49152 (Dec 3, 2018)

One Wheel said:


> Perhaps a better analogy would be to compare feet to linear FMC.


Maybe, but linear FMC isn't an event. 

I don't do feet, and I do see your point, but the fact that feet requires greater efficiency doesn't mean it was originally conceived to fill some gap on the efficiency spectrum, nor that it's necessary or interesting to do so, IMHO. Rather it's just a bit of fun (and there's nothing wrong with that).


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## One Wheel (Dec 3, 2018)

mark49152 said:


> . . . originally conceived to fill some gap on the efficiency spectrum,


The fact that it was not originally conceived to fill a gap does not mean that it does not fill that gap now. I believe that when feet was originally introduced OH filled the gap that feet now fills. As hardware and methods have improved, OH has closed the efficiency gap with 2H, leaving behind most of the gap that it originally filled.


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## Faz (Dec 3, 2018)

DhruvA said:


> Popularity- The popularity has increased by 29% (as of 3/12/18) since 1/1/18 and people are getting very fast at it.
> For example, the World Record went down by about 17% for average and single. So I don't see it as an issue.
> The case of just 2% of people competing in it is just that it takes more skill and people have their own opinions of what events they like. Also might be because a lot of cubers in the WCA don't do many events, specifically new cubers and people who don't start off with a lot of events at first but slowly get into other events.


Yes, there are 29% more 3x3 WF results now, compared with the end of 2017. Over the same time period, the number of WCA competitors has increased by at least 25% (can someone provide the exact number? - my browser doesn't like it when I query all results on the rankings page). Adjusted for WCA population growth, the popularity has barely increased.



Loser said:


> 1. How does that argument not apply to OH? Also as many have said in the github thread, feet requires way more efficiency than 3x3 and OH. People learn hundreds of weird algs that are a few moves less and use B moves, F moves in bad combinations for 3x3 and OH.


In terms of actual solving methods and skills, it requires more efficient F2L solutions and learning algorithms that are more move-optimal. So, almost nothing new, compared with the majority of other WCA events. As I wrote in my original post, this argument does also apply to OH, 5BLD, and perhaps 6x6 and 7x7 to a lesser degree. It's just one argument of many.



Loser said:


> 3. The delegate vote on feet happened back in 2017, there wasn't one for actually removing it in 2018. Also, unofficial stats/WCA Profile completeness would be the only reasons I (and many others) would ever do BigBLD.


The delegate vote in late 2017 resulted in the plan to change the feet format to ao5 and monitor its popularity (which was intentionally not made public so as not to inflate the frequency that feet was held at competitions). I don't have the statistics to back me up here, but I believe that changing the megaminx and sq1 formats to ao5 had a reasonable impact on the popularity of those events - perhaps the intention of the WCA was to see whether it would have the same impact on the popularity of feet?



Loser said:


> 5. If there is already too many events, why did we add skewb of 6x6/7x7? Major championships were already 3 days at this point.


6x6 and 7x7 were added almost 10 years ago, the WCA was far smaller and competely different back then, I'm not sure it's relevant now. Skewb was added because it was relatively popular and people campaigned quite heavily for it, it's fairly simple and quick to run, and because the puzzle and its solving methods bring something new to the WCA, although it is far too scramble-dependent. This doesn't change my view that the WCA is a bit too saturated with events - I'm sure there are some people who'd want to see all of 6x6, 7x7, 5BLD, Clock, and perhaps even Skewb removed from the list of events, but it is nice that they are able to offer such a diverse range of events for competitors.



One Wheel said:


> Look at the list of the fastest people at 2H, OH, and Feet. There is a lot of overlap between 2H and OH, but very little with feet. FMC rewards efficiency at the expense of all else, 2H is raw speed (both efficiency and TPS) at one time OH filled the gap between the two, but as people have gotten better at OH there is really very little gap between 2H and OH. Feet fills this gap.


The reason there is little overlap between OH and feet rankings is certainly not because of the marginally different solving skills required (ie, solving with slightly more efficiency and slightly less TPS).



One Wheel said:


> Irrelevant. It is an event, the presumption should be to keep things the same unless there is a clear reason otherwise. In this case a lot of work has been put into feet solving, and if the work had been put in without it being an official event (which it would not have been) then there would be many people, myself included, campaigning to add it. Work has been done, progress has been made, it is as unfair to the people who have done that work to remove the event as it would be to you to remove 6x6 or 7x7.


I don't think it's irrelevant, I think it's a reasonable thought experiment when event removal is considered. The presumption should be to keep things the same, unless there are reasons otherwise - for feet there are indeed many reasons otherwise.
Also, people put hundreds of hours into practicing Rubik's Magic and Master Magic. Work was done and progress was made in those events as well, and sure, people complained that it was unfair.
FWIW, 7x7 (and 6x6 to a lesser extent) doesn't add very much in terms of solving skillset (although, I'd suggest still more than feet). I'd certainly be in favour of removing 7x7, and perhaps even 6x6.


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## CornerCutter (Dec 3, 2018)

I'm guessing during the delegate vote last year nobody was really expecting Feet to get removed. That is why they voted for the Ao5 format.


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## Faz (Dec 3, 2018)

CornerCutter said:


> I'm guessing during the delegate vote last year nobody was really expecting Feet to get removed. That is why they voted for the Ao5 format.



The vote was for whether feet should be an official event - https://github.com/thewca/wca-regulations/issues/652


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## Loser (Dec 3, 2018)

Faz said:


> Yes, there are 29% more 3x3 WF results now, compared with the end of 2017. Over the same time period, the number of WCA competitors has increased by at least 25% (can someone provide the exact number? - my browser doesn't like it when I query all results on the rankings page). Adjusted for WCA population growth, the popularity has barely increased.
> 
> 
> In terms of actual solving methods and skills, it requires more efficient F2L solutions and learning algorithms that are more move-optimal. So, almost nothing new, compared with the majority of other WCA events. As I wrote in my original post, this argument does also apply to OH, 5BLD, and perhaps 6x6 and 7x7 to a lesser degree. It's just one argument of many.
> ...



To respond to this:
Feet growth:
Even though it didn't grow that much more than 3x3, it did grow more than it, which I think is a good enough reason to keep it.

Solving method:
I agree with you in that you must use more efficient f2l and a bunch more ll algs are required to be world class. I think that this makes the event unique.

Feet/OH overlap:
What is the reason for no overlap then?

Removal of magics:
Was there this much backlash though?
Also IMO magics had to be removed, as judging was impossible and it likely wasn't consistent all around the world.

Also, I would likr it if you did a session of feet, to at least try it out. As far as I know, you have never even tried the event, which I think causes bias.


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## mark49152 (Dec 3, 2018)

One Wheel said:


> The fact that it was not originally conceived to fill a gap does not mean that it does not fill that gap now


I know; I followed that with "nor is it necessary or interesting to do so, IMHO".


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## Sajwo (Dec 3, 2018)

Loser said:


> you must use more efficient f2l and a bunch more ll algs are required to be world class. I think that this makes the event unique.



that kinda applies to all events, except clock



Faz said:


> I'd certainly be in favour of removing 7x7, and perhaps even 6x6.



That's a sad thing to hear from you  I consider NxNs to be most valuable events.


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## Hazel (Dec 3, 2018)

I apologize if this is a bit of a tangent from the original purpose of this thread –
Many people here are saying that trivial events (clock, skewb, pyraminx, and 2x2) should be removed, and I don't think they should. Sure, records and PB's are very luck-dependent for these events, but they're still super fun and do take skill and lots of work and practice to get really good at. And isn't fun the whole reason for cubing in the first place? I relatively recently have started getting into clock and it's some of the most fun I've had in cubing in years.


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## One Wheel (Dec 3, 2018)

Faz said:


> The reason there is little overlap between OH and feet rankings is certainly not because of the marginally different solving skills required (ie, solving with slightly more efficiency and slightly less TPS).



You may be right here, but regardless of the reason the fact that there is significant divergence between the lists is an important and good thing. Taking nothing away from the incredible accomplishments that you, Max, Kevin, and others have achieved, by holding multiple records at the same time, for the organization as a whole it is a good thing for a wide variety of people to hold records and otherwise be "elite" members of the community. The more concentrated achievement is the greater the danger of the organization turning into a personality cult, and the more diversity there is in achievement the greater the apparent possibility of new people to enter the ranks of "elite" cubers.



Faz said:


> I don't think it's irrelevant, I think it's a reasonable thought experiment when event removal is considered. The presumption should be to keep things the same, unless there are reasons otherwise - for feet there are indeed many reasons otherwise.



Honestly the reasons I have heard argued for eliminating feet boil down to "it doesn't add anything" (to which objection I have addressed my arguments) and "ewww," to which I can only respond with the fact that a) feet are probably actually more sanitary than hands, and b) grow up, and if somebody really has stinky feet have them go into the bathroom and wash their feet in the sink.



Faz said:


> FWIW, 7x7 (and 6x6 to a lesser extent) doesn't add very much in terms of solving skillset (although, I'd suggest still more than feet). I'd certainly be in favour of removing 7x7, and perhaps even 6x6.



This is a surprising and disappointing sentiment. I would note that big cubes differ from smaller cubes in the percentage of the solve that is intuitive (and therefore really a puzzle) versus the amount that is algorithmic. 



Aerma said:


> I apologize if this is a bit of a tangent from the original purpose of this thread –
> Many people here are saying that trivial events (clock, skewb, pyraminx, and 2x2) should be removed, and I don't think they should. Sure, records and PB's are very luck-dependent for these events, but they're still super fun and do take skill and lots of work and practice to get really good at. And isn't fun the whole reason for cubing in the first place? I relatively recently have started getting into clock and it's some of the most fun I've had in cubing in years.



I am not arguing that trivial events ought to be eliminated, just that if events are going to be eliminated that those ought to be eliminated before more substantial events like Feet.


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## TipsterTrickster (Dec 3, 2018)

Wow this is very surprising... I do not like this choice but on the flip side I’m happy it’s not clock


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## CarterK (Dec 3, 2018)

Ok, some things I noticed while reading through the thread:

One of the cool things with feet is that a lot of it is being able to turn the cube very differently to any other event. For the popularity, it's important to note that 2/3 of the top 100 persons are from this year. For the grossness/new equipment thing, that's completely unnecessary as hands are much more gross than feet. 

I'm probably missing something, but these are important to think about.


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## Jacck (Dec 5, 2018)

I'm not fast in any event, so only typical reactions of non-cubers:

Me: "I can do a 3x3x3 blind." Them: "I cannot even do it sighted." or "Amazing."
Me: "I can do a 5x5x5 blind." Them "I cannot even understand, how someone can do a 3x3x3 blind."
Me: "I can do it with feet." Them "What???? Wooooow!!!"

For some reasons this seems to be the most fantastic thing.
After my last comp "the" interesting thing when I told about it was: Henri's 18.55s (you surely can guess the event )


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## abunickabhi (Dec 5, 2018)

Nooooooooooooooooooo!


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## hotufos (Dec 5, 2018)

I personally have no opinion on this. I consider feet a bizarre event, and I have never had any interest in practicing or competing in it. However, it being an event causes no hindrance to me whatsoever. I recognize that some people have put extensive effort into practicing feet, and that they would rightfully be upset to see it being removed.


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## Matt— (Dec 6, 2018)

Maybe the removal of feet will allow for more room for another event? For example kilominx or something like that.


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## Dene (Dec 6, 2018)

Feet sucks


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## Gomorrite (Dec 6, 2018)

Faz said:


> Yes, there are 29% more 3x3 WF results now, compared with the end of 2017. Over the same time period, the number of WCA competitors has increased by at least 25% (can someone provide the exact number? - my browser doesn't like it when I query all results on the rankings page). Adjusted for WCA population growth, the popularity has barely increased.



So far in 2008 (neglecting December):

- Growth of WCA competitors: 10.7%
- Growth of Feet competitors: 25.9%

Also, the ratio of 2 hand competitors to feet competitors per year:

2018 - 2,78%
2017 - 2,45%
2016 - 2,39%
2015 - 2,77%
2014 - 2,87%
2013 - 3,89%
2012 - 4,35%
2011 - 3,89%
2010 - 2,60%
2009 - 1,63%

WCA growth has slowed down a lot this year in many regions and in many countries the number of competitors has decreased considerably. On the other hand it is exploding in Russia and neighboring countries.


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## Faz (Dec 6, 2018)

Gomorrite said:


> So far in 2008 (neglecting December):
> 
> - Growth of WCA competitors: 10.7%
> - Growth of Feet competitors: 25.9%
> ...



How are you defining growth here? I'm guessing number of people who competed in feet in the distinct calendar year 2018 vs 2017, and the same for 3x3? My guess is that this stat might be similar for other events as: many of the WCA competitors are one-time 3x3 competitors, and competitors who return from previous years will also naturally begin to compete in more events.

Alternatively:

3x3WF competitors now - 2518
3x3WF competitors Jan 1 - 1947
Increase: 29.3%

WCA competitors now - 114888
WCA competitors Jan 1 - 90745
Increase: 26.6%


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## Gomorrite (Dec 6, 2018)

Faz said:


> How are you defining growth here? I'm guessing number of people who competed in feet in the distinct calendar year 2018 vs 2017, and the same for 3x3? My guess is that this stat might be similar for other events as: many of the WCA competitors are one-time 3x3 competitors, and competitors who return from previous years will also naturally begin to compete in more events.
> 
> Alternatively:
> 
> ...


Yes, I defined growth as you said, because If I use cumulative competitors over the years, then I am factoring in the whole WCA history and not assessing current growth only.

In any case, I think the second stat I gave is more revealing. Feet popularity (relative to cubing popularity) had a peak in 2012, then decreased a lot until 2016. 2018 however seems like a year of decent recovery.

Also, I will attend my first WCA competition ever in 9 days and I believe you will be there. I have been practicing for 10 years so probably you have no chance against me.


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## CarterK (Dec 6, 2018)

Dene said:


> Feet sucks


Would you like to elaborate on why that means it shouldn't be an event?


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## Sajwo (Dec 6, 2018)

CarterK said:


> Would you like to elaborate on why that means it shouldn't be an event?



i think it's your job to prove that it should be an event


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## One Wheel (Dec 6, 2018)

Sajwo said:


> i think it's your job to prove that it should be an event


No, it’s an event now. The burden of proof is on anybody advocating change from the status quo.


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## CarterK (Dec 6, 2018)

Sajwo said:


> i think it's your job to prove that it should be an event


a.) I disagree, the WCA is pushing for change. I stated my reasons here and on github anyway.

b.) I was more referring to the unconstructiveness of that reply. It didnt help the conversation in any way.


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## Sajwo (Dec 6, 2018)

CarterK said:


> a.) I disagree, the WCA is pushing for change. I stated my reasons here and on github anyway.
> 
> b.) I was more referring to the unconstructiveness of that reply. It didnt help the conversation in any way.



so you can as well look for his reasons on github and speedsolving forum


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## CarterK (Dec 6, 2018)

Sajwo said:


> so you can as well look for his reasons on github and speedsolving forum


Except that there are no reasons from him


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## Sajwo (Dec 6, 2018)

CarterK said:


> Except that there are no reasons from him



pretty sure his reasons are similar to everyone's else


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## One Wheel (Dec 6, 2018)

Sajwo said:


> pretty sure his reasons are similar to everyone's else


Since he hasn’t clarified, though, it would be foolish to presume that. He might have similar reasons to everyone else, or he might have a new argument that even I would find convincing. Or he could be under the mistaken impression that feet actually operate like a vacuum cleaner, creating a localized area of low pressure and thereby drawing in detritus.


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## Mike Hughey (Dec 6, 2018)

I know Dene has expressed his opinions on feet numerous times here on Speedsolving.com, but the times I remember are a long time ago (many years), so it might take a bit of searching to find them.

I completely respect Dene's opinion on this, although I disagree with it. 

It's funny that it has been almost 2 years since Dene's previous post, and this is the thing that finally got him to post again. Hi, Dene, welcome back!


Edit: I found one.


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## Julio974 (Dec 6, 2018)

Dene said:


> Feet sucks


Well you probably have 2 (and I too), so I think you should have got used to it


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## David Zemdegs (Dec 8, 2018)

I would suggest that three things come out of this discussion.
1. What are the criteria for an event.
2. In addition to 1. - what are the criteria for introducing a new event
3. In respect of 1. - what are the criteria for removing events

The Olympic movement has over the years added and removed many events. I dont believe the WCA should be static.
Having said that - my main argument against feet is the credibility one - Whenever I discuss the WCA and mention feet as an event, the response is "are you serious"?


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## WillyTheWizard (Dec 8, 2018)

If they are going to remove event, then they'll need to add a event.


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## AbsoRuud (Dec 8, 2018)

To play devil's advocate. The most popular sport in the entire world, is football. (soccer for the Americans) You play this with your feet. So is it that much of a stretch to play with your Rubik's Cube with your feet? What do you all think?


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## One Wheel (Dec 8, 2018)

David Zemdegs said:


> I would suggest that three things come out of this discussion.
> 1. What are the criteria for an event.
> 2. In addition to 1. - what are the criteria for introducing a new event
> 3. In respect of 1. - what are the criteria for removing events



Agreed. It would be very helpful to have more firm criteria. 



David Zemdegs said:


> Having said that - my main argument against feet is the credibility one - Whenever I discuss the WCA and mention feet as an event, the response is "are you serious"?



I’ve said this before, but I don’t find this argument at all compelling. On the one hand, the response I’ve heard to feet is basically the same as the response to cubing competitions in general: “seriously? That’s pretty crazy, but cool, I guess.”

On the other hand we are spending hundreds of hours and dollars, if not more, playing with what is basically a child’s toy. It’s fun, and I have no intention of quitting. But there is little more inspiring than someone who masters a ridiculous skill and is proud of it, and little that is more sad than someone who spends time and effort doing something ridiculous and believes that they are doing something useful. Cubing is ridiculous. There is nothing wrong with putting serious effort into it, as long as we remember that it’s a silly thing and we shouldn’t take either cubing or ourselves too seriously.


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## Loser (Dec 8, 2018)

WillyTheWizard said:


> If they are going to remove event, then they'll need to add a event.


Disagree. Removing and adding should be seen as different processes. The WCA also shouldn't be forced to add events, or forced to remove just to do the other


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## lucarubik (Dec 8, 2018)

so now its gonna be legal to use your feet for the standard 3x3 event?


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## CornerCutter (Dec 8, 2018)

If the WCA is as open to adding new events as they are removing feet then I think we are making progress.


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## xyzzy (Dec 9, 2018)

lucarubik said:


> so now its gonna be legal to use your feet for the standard 3x3 event?


It's always been legal. You just need to make sure you're not violating A1c, which would be pretty difficult for anyone with at least one functioning arm.


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## WillyTheWizard (Dec 9, 2018)

> CornerCutter said:
> 
> 
> > If the WCA is as open to adding new events as they are removing feet then I think we are making progress.


I hope they will


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## CarterK (Dec 11, 2018)

CornerCutter said:


> If the WCA is as open to adding new events as they are removing feet then I think we are making progress.


I'd highly doubt it. Adding and removing are opposite of each other, so I don't think the WCA would want to do both.


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## Julio974 (Dec 11, 2018)

David Zemdegs said:


> I would suggest that three things come out of this discussion.
> 1. What are the criteria for an event.
> 2. In addition to 1. - what are the criteria for introducing a new event
> 3. In respect of 1. - what are the criteria for removing events
> ...


The Olympic Games's sports have changed over the years, but removing a sport from the Olympics doesn't mean deleting its organization or stopping its records.
Removing an event from the WCA removes its only way of being legal.


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## mDiPalma (Dec 11, 2018)

Another royal decree from the wise king's High Court. We genuflect.


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## TheCuberCubes (Dec 11, 2018)

I think this outrageous. I don't do the event but still respect it. I feel bad for especially for people who do it.


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## TheCuberCubes (Dec 11, 2018)

DGCubes said:


> I definitely don't support this. I would like to see it open to a bigger community vote (or at least a delegate vote).
> 
> Unlike Magic and Master Magic, Feet doesn't have any inherent flaws that prevent it from being held accurately. I understand that it's objectively unpopular, but some events will naturally be more popular than others, and its popularity has only been increasing in recent years. I also think the fact that it's such a spectator-friendly event is a big deal that shouldn't be overlooked. I really want to see cubing grow as a spectator sport, and weird/interesting events like Feet only make that more doable. I don't know many people (cubers or non-cubers) who would want to watch even the fastest of 7x7 solves, but a world class Feet solve is just plain fun to watch.
> 
> I recognize my bias as a Feet solver, but we also need to recognize the inherent bias in many of those arguing for this event to be removed. "I think it's stupid" and "I think it's good" are not valid reasons to keep or remove an event. Feet isn't hurting anyone by staying in the WCA (as far as I'm aware; feel free to provide evidence to the contrary if you have it). However, a non-negligible percentage of cubers are disappointed at its removal.


 
Yea DG I totally agree with what you are saying. Feet is just like any other event. BTW love your vids!


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## stormtrooper (Dec 12, 2018)

I honestly don't care about feet solves getting removed, feet solves are slow compared to OH or 3x3. TPS is limited on Feet Solves, which is why it is slow. Another is that feet are slower than hands, some people have fast feet on feet solves though not everyone has fast feet. If there would be 1 foot solving it is going to be ridiculous considering that you can barely turn a side with one foot and the cube would just end up getting thrown somewhere else. Those are just my thoughts why I think I don't really care with feet solves get removed.


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## WillyTheWizard (Dec 12, 2018)

This isn't really needed, I mean we have a few feet solvers in Massachusetts, and as TheCuberCubes said, I would feel bad for the people who do it. Look at events like 5bld, no one really does that one, yet it isnt being removed. why put away a entire world of cubing.


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## Loser (Dec 12, 2018)

the reason there's so few feet solvers in mass is that there hasn't been a comp with it in 9 years lol. delegates haven't wanted to use equipment for it, but with all the new equipment mass has we're using some of the old now. the plan if they didn't allow that was just to buy 8 timers for $240, which isn't that much


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## YouCubing (Dec 12, 2018)

Ack. It looks as though I've been defeated.


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## stormtrooper (Dec 13, 2018)

There is a possibility that Feet solves will get replaced by another thing, but I do not know since I do not work for the WCA. But I know that I doubt that 1x1x2 and 1x2x2 will be an event due to the fact that it is to easy and there are less positions, if it would be an event at a competiton on April Fools day as a joke then that would get attention I guess. I know for a fact that Magic and Master Magic is not going to be an event because it is pointless due to the fact that it is just the same solve over and over. However there is a possibility that 2x2x3 could get added since Qiyi has made a massly produced version of 2x2x3, it has 241.920 positions. Or even other puzzles such as the 3x3x2 could get even added because of the amount of positions. If new events get added then there would be more massly produced products from different companies.


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## Matt— (Dec 13, 2018)

stormtrooper said:


> There is a possibility that Feet solves will get replaced by another thing, but I do not know since I do not work for the WCA. But I know that I doubt that 1x1x2 and 1x2x2 will be an event due to the fact that it is to easy and there are less positions, if it would be an event at a competiton on April Fools day as a joke then that would get attention I guess. I know for a fact that Magic and Master Magic is not going to be an event because it is pointless due to the fact that it is just the same solve over and over. However there is a possibility that 2x2x3 could get added since Qiyi has made a massly produced version of 2x2x3, it has 241.920 positions. Or even other puzzles such as the 3x3x2 could get even added because of the amount of positions. If new events get added then there would be more massly produced products from different companies.


A 1x1x2 would tarnish the WCA's reputation. I don’t really even consider that a puzzle, just a fidget toy.


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## Hazel (Dec 13, 2018)

stormtrooper said:


> There is a possibility that Feet solves will get replaced by another thing, but I do not know since I do not work for the WCA. But I know that I doubt that 1x1x2 and 1x2x2 will be an event due to the fact that it is to easy and there are less positions, if it would be an event at a competiton on April Fools day as a joke then that would get attention I guess. I know for a fact that Magic and Master Magic is not going to be an event because it is pointless due to the fact that it is just the same solve over and over. However there is a possibility that 2x2x3 could get added since Qiyi has made a massly produced version of 2x2x3, it has 241.920 positions. Or even other puzzles such as the 3x3x2 could get even added because of the amount of positions. If new events get added then there would be more massly produced products from different companies.


A 2x2x3 or 3x3x2 would be too simple - the world records would very quickly be completely luck-based, maybe even more so than 2x2.


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## Loser (Dec 13, 2018)

IMO if the WCA is adding an event it should:
1. Held at comps unofficially in multiple areas for an extended period of time
2. Have multiple manufactures making them
3. Have the current UWR be >30 seconds
4. Not be a spinoff of a current event (basically to avoid current record holders automatically getting those wrs)


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## Matt— (Dec 13, 2018)

Loser said:


> IMO if the WCA is adding an event it should:
> 1. Held at comps unofficially in multiple areas for an extended period of time
> 2. Have multiple manufactures making them
> 3. Have the current UWR be >30 seconds
> 4. Not be a spinoff of a current event (basically to avoid current record holders automatically getting those wrs)


I agree however the >30 seconds thing may not be true. I get what you’re going at where it’s not supposed to be luck based, but still there are some good events that could be added that are below 30 seconds.


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## Loser (Dec 13, 2018)

My reasoning is that the event should have a large amount to improve over time. This is why I would have supported adding 6/7, as people were averaging like 5 minutes, giving it a lot of room to improve.

What events with uwrs under 30 seconds are you suggesting?


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## Matt— (Dec 13, 2018)

Loser said:


> My reasoning is that the event should have a large amount to improve over time. This is why I would have supported adding 6/7, as people were averaging like 5 minutes, giving it a lot of room to improve.
> 
> What events with uwrs under 30 seconds are you suggesting?


Tbh, I don’t really know many UWR’s but an event I like is kibiminx. I’m sure that if someone can get below 35 seconds on Megaminx, than sub 30 on kibminix should be no problem. However, I don’t know if ehough people practice to have done that.


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## Loser (Dec 13, 2018)

Matt— said:


> Tbh, I don’t really know many UWR’s but an event I like is kibiminx. I’m sure that if someone can get below 35 seconds on Megaminx, than sub 30 on kibminix should be no problem. However, I don’t know if ehough people practice to have done that.


Kilominx uwr is like 10-12 seconds lol
It also is a spin-off of a spin-off, which we should avoid, and also if you're good at mega you're good at it, and mega world class people would basically automatically be world class at kilominx.


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## Julio974 (Dec 13, 2018)

I'd suspect it to be replaced with another puzzle (not just a variant) either:
- Kilominx
- Curvy Copter
- Ivy Cube
- Master Pyraminx
- Crystalminx (FTO)
- Redi Cube


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## Hazel (Dec 13, 2018)

Julio974 said:


> I'd suspect it to be replaced with another puzzle (not just a variant) either:
> - Kilominx
> - Curvy Copter
> - Ivy Cube
> ...


I kind of like this list, but I think that Kilominx, Ivy Cube, and Redi cube would very quickly come down to mostly luck. The Redi cube UWR is already sub-3 seconds, and the Ivy cube UWR is sub-1 second.


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## stormtrooper (Dec 13, 2018)

Matt— said:


> A 1x1x2 would tarnish the WCA's reputation. I don’t really even consider that a puzzle, just a fidget toy.


I do agree it is a fidget toy, but it also considered to be a "joke cube".

It would be funny if it would be an event as a joke for only 1 competition, however the 1x1x2 is way to easy to be an event. Don't ask me why I included 1x1x2 and 1x2x2, I just included there to show what will not be an event.


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## stormtrooper (Dec 13, 2018)

Aerma said:


> A 2x2x3 or 3x3x2 would be too simple - the world records would very quickly be completely luck-based, maybe even more so than 2x2.


I can agree on this statement, however I infer that it could be possible for 3x3x4. However, no one knows.


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## Hazel (Dec 13, 2018)

stormtrooper said:


> I can agree on this statement, however I infer that it could be possible for 3x3x4. However, no one knows.


3x3x4 could work, I'd like to see 3x3x5 because that's been around for a long time, and it would be really cool to see 3x3x5's with internal mechanisms of already-successful 3x3's, it could work great.


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## WillyTheWizard (Dec 13, 2018)

How about official wca relays? Like 2-7 or guildford


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## stormtrooper (Dec 13, 2018)

WillyTheWizard said:


> How about official wca relays? Like 2-7 or guildford


Possibly could happen, but we would have to wait for some time for that to then happen.


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## CornerCutter (Dec 15, 2018)

WillyTheWizard said:


> How about official wca relays? Like 2-7 or guildford


Cool idea, but that would take a while for the majority of competitors. So time is the issue there.


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## Pyjam (Dec 15, 2018)

Sajwo said:


> very good decision. feet make cubers looks like some weirdos


This is hilarious.


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## WillyTheWizard (Dec 15, 2018)

lol


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## Sajwo (Dec 16, 2018)

Pyjam said:


> This is hilarious.



go ask 100 random people on the street what they think about solving rubik's cubes with feet and present us the results


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## xyzzy (Dec 16, 2018)

I feel like people's impressions of "solving a Rubik's Cube with feet" might be more like literally solving a cube with feet, versus what we actually do, which is solving a cube with feet _and the floor_. It sounds very impressive to normal people until they watch a video of it and get disappointed that people are making use of the surface.

(Then again, what do I know, I have a sample size of 1.)


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## Alejandro82 (Dec 17, 2018)

This is so stupid. Of course it’s not gonna get removed. The only reason we’re discussing this is because Bob Burton has an irrational fear of feet.
He can’t touch scorecards for 3x3 WF because someone’s feet touched a cube, and that cube might’ve touched a scorecard… He even forbids feet solvers from using the timers/mats at the competitions he delegates … I bet we would be at 30% if he didn’t actively try to suppress feet solving as a delegate and board member. I’m all for mentally challenged people to vote, but this has been a huge waste of time for the wca. Feet are not unsanitary, it’s only in your head.

And regarding media coverage … wca will be less known if feet is removed, because the media can’t show this amazing talent anymore. Solving with hands is the same thing over and over and the media will get bored with that.
Here’s a comment from Bob Burton regarding feet:



> - I refuse to hold it at any competition I organize because it repulses me.
> - For Worlds last year, we actually ordered separate timers for the 3x3 feet event and sold them after the event was finished.
> - I think solving with feet is disgusting. For Worlds last year, I refused to touch the scorecards for the 3x3 feet event because the feet cubes touched them also. We had hand sanitizer at the scrambling table for accidental contact with feet cubes.
> - Look at the registration costs for 3x3 with feet at US Nationals this year. If it were up to me, they'd be even higher.
> ...


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## Loser (Dec 17, 2018)

https://www.worldcubeassociation.or...t&from_date=&to_date=&delegate=4&display=list

Nats and a comp the month before?


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## WillyTheWizard (Dec 17, 2018)

Oof


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## Mike Hughey (Dec 17, 2018)

Loser said:


> https://www.worldcubeassociation.org/competitions?utf8=✓&event_ids[]=333ft&region=all&search=&year=all+years&state=past&from_date=&to_date=&delegate=4&display=list
> 
> Nats and a comp the month before?


He said he refused to hold feet for any comp that he organizes; he didn't say he refused to hold feet for any comp he delegates. But certainly he's dragged kicking and screaming when he has to delegate one.  I assume Meadowlands happened because of the possibility of a WR from Daniel Rose-Levine (which happened!).


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## Loser (Dec 17, 2018)

I see.

I also think that he just needs to grow up and deal.


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## Ronxu (Dec 17, 2018)

Alejandro82 said:


> I’m all for mentally challenged people to vote, but this has been a huge waste of time for the wca.


that's a yikes from me fam


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## Tabe (Dec 17, 2018)

Alejandro82 said:


> Feet are not unsanitary, it’s only in your head.


We can go back and forth on whether feet have more/fewer germs than hands and whether they really are relatively unsanitary in comparison. 

What *IS* indisputable, and what most people are probably referring to when they say "unsanitary" or "unhygienic" is that feet smell worse than hands. Not all feet, not everyone's, and so on, but some.


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## WillyTheWizard (Dec 18, 2018)

Fair Enough


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## One Wheel (Dec 18, 2018)

Tabe said:


> We can go back and forth on whether feet have more/fewer germs than hands and whether they really are relatively unsanitary in comparison.
> 
> What *IS* indisputable, and what most people are probably referring to when they say "unsanitary" or "unhygienic" is that feet smell worse than hands. Not all feet, not everyone's, and so on, but some.



If somebody came to compete with hands dripping with raw sewage they would be required to go to the restroom and wash them (and likely their cube) before being allowed to compete. Why should Feet be any different in that regard? If your feet stink, you need to wash them.


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## Loser (Dec 18, 2018)

brb gonna go make my feet drip of sewage


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## Tabe (Dec 18, 2018)

One Wheel said:


> If somebody came to compete with hands dripping with raw sewage they would be required to go to the restroom and wash them (and likely their cube) before being allowed to compete. Why should Feet be any different in that regard? If your feet stink, you need to wash them.


I don't disagree.


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## One Wheel (Dec 18, 2018)

Loser said:


> brb gonna go make my feet drip of sewage


I can’t recommend that course of action.


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## WillyTheWizard (Dec 18, 2018)

One Wheel said:


> I can’t recommend that course of action.


 I would love to see how you would get access to sewage water and your clickbait thumbnail. Delegates would get so mad tho...


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## One Wheel (Dec 18, 2018)

WillyTheWizard said:


> I would love to see how you would get access to sewage water and your clickbait thumbnail. Delegates would get so mad tho...


I’m not sure what you mean by clickbait thumbnail, but I have ample access to non-human sewage. I like to think of it more as thoroughly mashed-up grass clippings, though.


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## Metallic Silver (Dec 18, 2018)

It will never happen. :3


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## Pyjam (Dec 19, 2018)

Sajwo said:


> go ask 100 random people on the street what they think about solving rubik's cubes with feet and present us the results


That's like saying: _Eating frogs with the hands is weirdos._
Go ask 100 random people on the street what they think about solving rubik's cubes during hours everyday.


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## Sajwo (Dec 19, 2018)

Pyjam said:


> That's like saying: _Eating frogs with the hands is weirdos._
> Go ask 100 random people on the street what they think about solving rubik's cubes during hours everyday.



for sure it's not as retarded as solving it with your feet


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## Underwatercuber (Dec 19, 2018)

Alejandro82 said:


> This is so stupid. Of course it’s not gonna get removed. The only reason we’re discussing this is because Bob Burton has an irrational fear of feet.
> He can’t touch scorecards for 3x3 WF because someone’s feet touched a cube, and that cube might’ve touched a scorecard… He even forbids feet solvers from using the timers/mats at the competitions he delegates … I bet we would be at 30% if he didn’t actively try to suppress feet solving as a delegate and board member. I’m all for mentally challenged people to vote, but this has been a huge waste of time for the wca. Feet are not unsanitary, it’s only in your head.
> 
> And regarding media coverage … wca will be less known if feet is removed, because the media can’t show this amazing talent anymore. Solving with hands is the same thing over and over and the media will get bored with that.
> Here’s a comment from Bob Burton regarding feet:


Tfw one of the selling points of keeping feet is that if you don’t like it you don’t have to participate in it or organize/delegate comps with it but instead you counter the argument as well as disrespect someone’s choices and then proceed to call them mentally challenged for it.

Nice


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## Alejandro82 (Dec 19, 2018)

Underwatercuber said:


> Tfw one of the selling points of keeping feet is that if you don’t like it you don’t have to participate in it or organize/delegate comps with it but instead you counter the argument as well as disrespect someone’s choices and then proceed to call them mentally challenged for it.
> 
> Nice


He is one of the 4 people in the world that will ultimately determine if feet will be removed or not.


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## Ronxu (Dec 19, 2018)

Alejandro82 said:


> He is one of the 4 people in the world that will ultimately determine if feet will be removed or not.


You made a new account just for that post. You know your post is unreasonable, otherwise you'd have posted it on your main account.


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## Hazel (Dec 20, 2018)

Underwatercuber said:


> Tfw one of the selling points of keeping feet is that if you don’t like it you don’t have to participate in it or organize/delegate comps with it but instead you counter the argument as well as disrespect someone’s choices and then proceed to call them mentally challenged for it.
> 
> Nice


Exactly. If you don't like feet solving, don't do it, it's as simple as that.


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## One Wheel (Dec 20, 2018)

Aerma said:


> Exactly. If you don't like feet solving, don't do it, it's as simple as that.


Agreed


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## Alejandro82 (Dec 20, 2018)

Ronxu said:


> You made a new account just for that post. You know your post is unreasonable, otherwise you'd have posted it on your main account.


Hi, this is my first account, I came here from reddit, and I stand by my controversial comment. If anyone is being unreasonable, it's those who want to remove feet without actually having good reasons to do so.
"If you don't like it, don't do it yourself, but you have no right to stop others from doing it."
Exactly. That's why I think it's suspicious that a board member is actively trying to prevent feet solvers from competing. And it's ok for me that he won't touch other people's feet, but my point is that this guy has a vote (25%!) on whether feet should be an event or not.


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## Underwatercuber (Dec 23, 2018)

Aerma said:


> Exactly. If you don't like feet solving, don't do it, it's as simple as that.
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> ...


Well it does affect you regardless of whether you compete or not. For example if I go to comp with feet then it’s going to negatively affect me by taking time that could be used for other events, it’s going to affect me if people’s feet smell, it’s going to affect me if I’m required to staff. 

Also bringing up stuff like probably shouldn’t be done, it’s arguably different and very sensitive to people.


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## Loser (Dec 23, 2018)

And if I don't compete in 5BLD should it be removed because I could be competing in something else? And if I also get annoyed by having to be quiet, should it be removed for that as well?

The first argument applies to literally every event, so it isn't valid. The latter can apply to a lot as well.
Also kid if u can't deal with the smell of someones feet, man up. Staff should be trying to make the competition good for everyone, not just themselves, so care about others who care about the event.


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## One Wheel (Dec 23, 2018)

Underwatercuber said:


> it’s going to affect me if people’s feet smell, it’s going to affect me if I’m required to staff.



As I’ve said before: if somebody has hygiene issues that are bothering somebody else, whether for feet or for any other event, there is nothing wrong with requiring them to clean up before competing, or even disqualifying them if they are unwilling to do so.


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## Loser (Dec 23, 2018)

I don't see any regs saying you can disqualify competitors for smell. 
"The Mission of the World Cube Association is to have more competitions in more countries with more people and more fun, under fair and equal conditions."
More people=don't disqualify because you don't like something about them


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## Underwatercuber (Dec 23, 2018)

Loser said:


> And if I don't compete in 5BLD should it be removed because I could be competing in something else? And if I also get annoyed by having to be quiet, should it be removed for that as well?
> 
> The first argument applies to literally every event, so it isn't valid. The latter can apply to a lot as well.
> Also kid if u can't deal with the smell of someones feet, man up. Staff should be trying to make the competition good for everyone, not just themselves, so care about others who care about the event.


I’m just saying it does affect people whether or not they compete as any event at a competition will affect people in some way. 

Also why do people keep doing this lol. You can’t just argue a point for removing feet because other events share that same aspect. It’s not some all or nothing thing, feet isn’t just being removed for X and 5bld won’t be removed just because it also has X. Feet has reasons X Y Z to be removed and other events don’t have all of those X Y Z reasons to remove them. If you want to argue against feet removals just don’t do this, it’s pointless.


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## Loser (Dec 23, 2018)

Name a valid reason to remove feet that doesn't apply to another event.


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## One Wheel (Dec 23, 2018)

Loser said:


> I don't see any regs saying you can disqualify competitors for smell.


Not explicitly, but 2f, 2k3, and 2k4 can all be interpreted to allow it. I would certainly support a compromise that would make such a disqualification explicitly an option.


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## Loser (Dec 23, 2018)

2f-If venue allows it it's fine, and "a considerable manner" competing in an event is within that.
2k3-No laws broken, nothing in venue broken
2k4-Interfering with someone competing, not in general. If you can't deal with the smell of feet, a cubing competition with smelly little kids isn't right for you, go find a different hobby.


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## Underwatercuber (Dec 23, 2018)

Loser said:


> Name a valid reason to remove feet that doesn't apply to another event.


Please reread what I just wrote. It’s not because of one reason but multiple. It has a combination of negatives that are unique to it.


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## Loser (Dec 23, 2018)

Name a reason, any reason, that I haven't already disproved.


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## Underwatercuber (Dec 23, 2018)

Loser said:


> Name a reason, any reason, that I haven't already disproved.


If you want reasons then you can find a few here. Yet again its not just the fact that feet has X problem it’s that feet has X Y Z problems. 

Also please name an event that has all the negatives of feet listed.


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## One Wheel (Dec 23, 2018)

Underwatercuber said:


> If you want reasons then you can find a few here. Yet again its not just the fact that feet has X problem it’s that feet has X Y Z problems.
> 
> Also please name an event that has all the negatives of feet listed.


Those are pretty weak, and in that thread they are refuted by Chris Hardwick and Lucas Garron, in addition to being addressed elsewhere.


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## Loser (Dec 23, 2018)

^
Also,
Anything about sanitaryness can be refuted with the fact that hands are more dirty, not with the "but hand have more germs" which I've never actually seen an official thing about, but of all the nasty stuff you do with your hands. I'd rather touch someones sweat than a booger.

Organizing a large competition- Just don't hold feet.I'd prefer that than removing it from all competitions.

I've never actually seen someone use the +2 thing. If a solve has say 60 moves, and in order for the +2 to save you time you must be turning at less than 0.5 tps, which means that this would be an at least 4 minute solve. Them having a solve 0.1 seconds faster isn't a reason to remove an event.

The point of Sum of Ranks is that people who compete in every event are rewarded. Removing events actually makes it less credible. (Anything related to unofficial stats should also be ignored entirely, but IK people won't listen to that)


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## Underwatercuber (Dec 23, 2018)

One Wheel said:


> Those are pretty weak, and in that thread they are refuted by Chris Hardwick and Lucas Garron, in addition to being addressed elsewhere.


Individually they definitely are, together they are a bit of a stronger reason. Still personally don’t think that the cons outweigh the pros still but it’s enough for the WCA ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


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## Underwatercuber (Dec 23, 2018)

Loser said:


> ^
> Also,
> Anything about sanitaryness can be refuted with the fact that hands are more dirty, not with the "but hand have more germs" which I've never actually seen an official thing about, but of all the nasty stuff you do with your hands. I'd rather touch someones sweat than a booger.
> 
> ...


Sanitation is less of an actual problem and more of a seen problem which makes it just as valid. If people think it’s unsanitary it doesn’t matter how much you tell everyone that because they will think what they want to think.

I think removing it from championships would definitely help with this and would be a good compromise

I have seen a few, as they mentioned it’s more of a minor thing. Feet is the only event where people do this and it could be fixed by adjusting misalignment penalties or something. Only problem with that is high level competitors then become screwed over with higher penalties (ex a +5 missalignment would encourage slow competitors to finish but if DRL gets a +5 penalty it would be worst for him than a +2)

Honestly stupid that stuff like this gets brought up. Pretty much the sole reason 4/5bld means haven’t been added yet is because people want unofficial recognitions to be easy enough for them (membership clubs). I do see how it would benefit SOR for lots of people but I don’t really see why that should influence decisions


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## Loser (Dec 23, 2018)

4BLD and 5BLD means are being added, and while this likely means I'll never get platinum, I'm happy that the tiers will be harder to get. Considering like 6 people got platinum this year, it's becoming too large of a club. Even though 1 might be small, I expect Shivam Bansal will get it soon, and there's someone else as well I'm forgetting. I'll edit if I remember.


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## Underwatercuber (Dec 23, 2018)

Loser said:


> 4BLD and 5BLD means are being added, and while this likely means I'll never get platinum, I'm happy that the tiers will be harder to get. Considering like 6 people got platinum this year, it's becoming too large of a club. Even though 1 might be small, I expect Shivam Bansal will get it soon, and there's someone else as well I'm forgetting. I'll edit if I remember.



Currently there are 20 Platinum members, 46 Gold members, 94 Silver members and 33 Bronze members.

currently, 87 people have 4BLD means, 29 people have 5BLD means and 23 people have both.

With the inclusion of BigBLD means, there would be
1 Platinum member (Jan Bentlage),
3 Gold members (Cale Schoon, Mark Boyanowski, Yunqi Ouyang),
6 Silver members (Wenjie Xu, Mike Hughey, Jason White, Sukant Koul, Hanns Hub, Kit Clement)
183 Bronze members (everybody else who's currently Bronze+)


Copied and edited slightly from facebook


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## Loser (Dec 23, 2018)

Cale Schoon would get closer to plat with a former 5BLD wr mean . He'd only need a WC podium, same with Mark, so they both have a shot at worlds.


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## Sajwo (Dec 23, 2018)

Loser said:


> Even though 1 might be small, I expect Shivam Bansal will get it soon, and there's someone else as well I'm forgetting. I'll edit if I remember.



i don't get why people care about this silly unofficial club.. also it might be 1 person only right now but im sure one day there will be easily over 1000 people there


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## One Wheel (Dec 23, 2018)

Sajwo said:


> i don't get why people care about this silly unofficial club.. also it might be 1 person only right now but im sure one day there will be easily over 1000 people there


One the one hand, yes I agree. On the other hand, it is a large part of my motivation to learn new events and continue going to and organizing competitions.


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## cx cuber (Jan 10, 2019)

AidanNoogie said:


> https://github.com/thewca/wca-regulations/issues/652
> 
> So 3x3 with feet is getting removed soon. Thoughts?


It depends , some people prefer feet solving than the normal solving . If it gets removed , some people wont be happy about it . My friend practised it for 4 years getting his time down . If it is removed , his dreams wont be true


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## asacuber (Sep 7, 2019)

bump, so what's gonna happen? Will it be removed?


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## GAN 356 X (Sep 7, 2019)

asacuber said:


> bump, so what's gonna happen? Will it be removed?


Yes, updates?


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## Mike Hughey (Sep 7, 2019)

The evidence seems to show that it has not been fully decided yet. The discussion on GitHub seemed to indicate that more would be done before finally deciding this, and has been updated recently indicating the issue is still open. I also I just discovered this, which appears to be a draft that is being prepared for a survey. I'm not sure who will be surveyed, but considering one of the questions seems to be experience level, the implication is that even relatively new cubers will be included, so it seems likely the survey is intended for everyone. Anyway, the first question on this section of the survey is a question about whether or not people think we should keep feet.

https://github.com/thewca/community-surveys/blob/master/2019/draft/6-regulations.md

I know Lucas Garron talked to me at US Nationals this year (I suspect he was talking to lots of people about this), and he was very excited about the possibility of mobilizing to make many changes to try to improve the WCA. This survey (which was submitted by him) seems to hit on a lot of the points that he was talking about considering.


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## Apolo (Sep 7, 2019)

The problem is that you could add the most stupid event ever, One Feet Square 1 for exemple. As soon as it will be added, some people will grind for hours the event so deleting the event would be really really bad for those people who spend so much time on it.
This is why I'm against removing events. We just have to be carefull about what event are added


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## PetrusQuber (Sep 7, 2019)

I do not do feet, but I don’t think it should be removed at all. There are thousands of people who do feet, and if it gets removed, those people will no longer have a place to go to record solves, share solutions with people, etc. This is totally unfair. Has the WCA seen this thread?

Plus, you should make a poll on who wants feet to stay.


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## Loser (Sep 7, 2019)

PetrusQuber said:


> I do not do feet, but I don’t think it should be removed at all. There are thousands of people who do feet, and if it gets removed, those people will no longer have a place to go to record solves, share solutions with people, etc. This is totally unfair. Has the WCA seen this thread?
> 
> Plus, you should make a poll on who wants feet to stay.




Just gonna jump in here before anyone against feet comes in with the argument about "WeLl YoU cAn StIlL sHaRe SoLvEs"

It isn't the same, and the event would die if it was removed, similar to how magic did and any other event would.

Also, I've seen dozens of unofficial polls run by everybody and their brother, and those are always to just one place, but the results are usually similar, with either side never getting more than 60%.



Mike Hughey said:


> I also I just discovered this, which appears to be a draft that is being prepared for a survey.



And that's why the wca is going to be conducting their own survey. I don't know what I'm allowed to say, so I'll leave it at that.


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## Mike Hughey (Sep 8, 2019)

Dr. Lube said:


> The only fly in the ointment is that blind events cannot be entered by competitors who are actually visually impaired. Maybe textured puzzles could be used in a new event which does not allow for visual inspection and blind events could be renamed.


I was surprised by this because I actually thought it was already covered by WCA regulations, but I don't see it in the regulations now. The suggestion has already been made many years ago that for a visually impaired competitor to compete in a blind event,, all that is necessary is to provide two scrambled cubes, in the same orientation - one textured, one not. The competitor uses the textured cube for inspection, then switches to the untextured cube to actually do the solving. That would make it very straightforward to accommodate a visually impaired competitor for blindfolded events.


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## jo1215 (Sep 8, 2019)

Dr. Lube said:


> I've changed my mind about feet... I think it should be kept as, at the moment, cubing competitions organized by the WCA are very inclusive and do not separate competitors by gender or physical ability.
> 
> The only fly in the ointment is that blind events cannot be entered by competitors who are actually visually impaired. Maybe textured puzzles could be used in a new event which does not allow for visual inspection and blind events could be renamed.





Mike Hughey said:


> I was surprised by this because I actually thought it was already covered by WCA regulations, but I don't see it in the regulations now. The suggestion has already been made many years ago that for a visually impaired competitor to compete in a blind event,, all that is necessary is to provide two scrambled cubes, in the same orientation - one textured, one not. The competitor uses the textured cube for inspection, then switches to the untextured cube to actually do the solving. That would make it very straightforward to accommodate a visually impaired competitor for blindfolded events.


This has been done in competition before


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## Mike Hughey (Sep 8, 2019)

jo1215 said:


> This has been done in competition before


That is so cool!!! Thanks for sharing this - that video should have a lot more views!


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## GAN 356 X (Sep 23, 2019)

Loser said:


> To respond to this:
> Feet growth:
> Even though it didn't grow that much more than 3x3, it did grow more than it, which I think is a good enough reason to keep it.
> 
> ...


Think about it. You're solving a CUBE WITH YOUR _*FEET*_! I'm not sure I would want to sacrifice a perfectly nice cube to be mangles by my feet


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## Hazel (Sep 23, 2019)

GAN 356 X said:


> Think about it. You're solving a CUBE WITH YOUR _*FEET*_! I'm not sure I would want to sacrifice a perfectly nice cube to be mangles by my feet


Then you don't have to do feet! But those who wish to partake in it shouldn't be stopped because some people in the community wouldn't want to do it.


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## One Wheel (Sep 23, 2019)

GAN 356 X said:


> Think about it. You're solving a CUBE WITH YOUR _*FEET*_! I'm not sure I would want to sacrifice a perfectly nice cube to be mangles by my feet


Feet solving works best with a different kind of puzzle than works best for hands anyway. I practiced with my Rubik’s brand, then magnetized a puzzle to get one exactly the way I want it specifically for Feet.


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## Izaden (Sep 23, 2019)

Solving with feet is definitely not an event that I am interested in (Viewing or competing) but I don't see a good reason to get rid of it. If hygiene is an issue then institute a rule where competitors must wash and dry their feet before each solve. This is not unreasonable. 
If you're solving with hands then you aren't going to grab your cube after eating a slice of pizza and a bag of cheetos right?
A lot of people have put in a ton of work to be good at this event, and it is certainly not boring!
I wonder if there are any feet solvers who do it because they are otherwise disabled? (Amputees or have mobility issues in their upper appendages)


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## White KB (Sep 24, 2019)

Izaden said:


> Solving with feet is definitely not an event that I am interested in (Viewing or competing) but I don't see a good reason to get rid of it. If hygiene is an issue then institute a rule where competitors must wash and dry their feet before each solve. This is not unreasonable.
> If you're solving with hands then you aren't going to grab your cube after eating a slice of pizza and a bag of cheetos right?
> A lot of people have put in a ton of work to be good at this event, and it is certainly not boring!
> I wonder if there are any feet solvers who do it because they are otherwise disabled? (Amputees or have mobility issues in their upper appendages)


Well, I would compete if it came to my locale, but it would be a good thing to institute some rules for sanitary reasons. That's what I say, anyway.


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## One Wheel (Sep 24, 2019)

White KB said:


> Well, I would compete if it came to my locale, but it would be a good thing to institute some rules for sanitary reasons. That's what I say, anyway.


If instituting special sanitary rules is what it takes to keep feet, fine, but there’s already an unwritten rule: are your hands gross? Wash them before competing. Feet? Same. Feet are not inherently gross any more than hands are. Both can get nasty, and both need to be washed from time to time.


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## Zeke Mackay (Sep 26, 2019)

https://github.com/thewca/wca-regulations/issues/811)


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## Loser (Oct 3, 2019)

Izaden said:


> Solving with feet is definitely not an event that I am interested in (Viewing or competing) but I don't see a good reason to get rid of it. If hygiene is an issue then institute a rule where competitors must wash and dry their feet before each solve. This is not unreasonable.
> If you're solving with hands then you aren't going to grab your cube after eating a slice of pizza and a bag of cheetos right?
> A lot of people have put in a ton of work to be good at this event, and it is certainly not boring!
> I wonder if there are any feet solvers who do it because they are otherwise disabled? (Amputees or have mobility issues in their upper appendages)



There is someone with be hands that competes in feet. I can't imagine him staying involved if feet was removed.


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## Underwatercuber (Oct 3, 2019)

Loser said:


> There is someone with be hands that competes in feet. I can't imagine him staying involved if feet was removed.


1. That’s pretty uncommon to not have functioning hands so using that as a reason to keep feet doesn’t make sense since it affects such a small amount of the community
2. If you have a disability you can talk to your delegate and they can make accommodations. They could likely get permission to do events with their feet.
3. Before any “but they can’t compete on the same level as everyone else”, oh well. If we had to make an event to give everyone will disabilities “equal” conditions then it would be a mess.


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## Hazel (Oct 3, 2019)

Underwatercuber said:


> 1. That’s pretty uncommon to not have functioning hands so using that as a reason to keep feet doesn’t make sense since it affects such a small amount of the community
> 2. If you have a disability you can talk to your delegate and they can make accommodations. They could likely get permission to do events with their feet.
> 3. Before any “but they can’t compete on the same level as everyone else”, oh well. If we had to make an event to give everyone will disabilities “equal” conditions then it would be a mess.


Lack of an obviously good reason to keep an event isn't in itself a reason to remove the event though.


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## Underwatercuber (Oct 3, 2019)

Aerma said:


> Lack of an obviously good reason to keep an event isn't in itself a reason to remove the event though.


If we are referring to the disability thing then yes, just because it’s not a good reason to keep the event doesn’t mean we should remove it. Overall though if there isn’t any good reason to keep an event then it should be removed (this isn’t the case with any event including feet right now)


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## One Wheel (Oct 3, 2019)

Underwatercuber said:


> 1. That’s pretty uncommon to not have functioning hands so using that as a reason to keep feet doesn’t make sense since it affects such a small amount of the community.


Keeping Feet for the sake of disabled cubers is one of the weaker arguments for keeping Feet, but it’s a valid one. I personally know one cuber who because of a congenital condition only has one fully functional hand. He could compete in OH on a level playing field, but why limit him to one event? (You could make a case for FMC, too.)



Underwatercuber said:


> 2. If you have a disability you can talk to your delegate and they can make accommodations. They could likely get permission to do events with their feet.


Of course you could, the same way that if you have prosthetic legs you can still run a marathon, but most major marathons have wheelchair divisions, most competitions of any kind that are open to the public to compete have some division for people who are unable to compete on a level field. There is no good reason for cubing to be different in that respect. 



Underwatercuber said:


> 3. Before any “but they can’t compete on the same level as everyone else”, oh well. If we had to make an event to give everyone will disabilities “equal” conditions then it would be a mess.


To make everyone equal would be a mess. Providing some reasonable accommodations is not. 

IMO the argument for Feet from access for disabled individuals is not a strong enough argument in itself to add feet as a new event, but it is strong enough to keep the event and added to the other arguments for keeping Feet it adds to an already very strong argument.


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## Underwatercuber (Oct 3, 2019)

One Wheel said:


> Keeping Feet for the sake of disabled cubers is one of the weaker arguments for keeping Feet, but it’s a valid one. I personally know one cuber who because of a congenital condition only has one fully functional hand. He could compete in OH on a level playing field, but why limit him to one event? (You could make a case for FMC, too.)
> 
> 
> Of course you could, the same way that if you have prosthetic legs you can still run a marathon, but most major marathons have wheelchair divisions, most competitions of any kind that are open to the public to compete have some division for people who are unable to compete on a level field. There is no good reason for cubing to be different in that respect.
> ...


1. Yes a weak argument 
2. Cubing has differing events but not divisions. 
3. Pretty subjective to say that and other weak arguments provide a strong argument together but sure


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## AlphaCuber is awesome (Oct 5, 2019)

Underwatercuber said:


> 1. Yes a weak argument
> 2. Cubing has differing events but not divisions.
> 3. Pretty subjective to say that and other weak arguments provide a strong argument together but sure


did he say the other arguments were weak? no 
and even if he did multiple weak arguments kind of do add up to make an overall strong argument


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## Underwatercuber (Oct 5, 2019)

AlphaCuber is awesome said:


> did he say the other arguments were weak? no
> and even if he did multiple weak arguments kind of do add up to make an overall strong argument


Most of the arguments for keeping feet are pretty weak, just an opinion. Those arguments together are still overall weak, also an opinion.


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## One Wheel (Oct 5, 2019)

Underwatercuber said:


> Most of the arguments for keeping feet are pretty weak, just an opinion. Those arguments together are still overall weak, also an opinion.


Arguments for changing the event list should be very strong. Arguments for keeping it the same should not need to be nearly as strong.


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## Mike Hughey (Oct 6, 2019)

Underwatercuber said:


> Most of the arguments for keeping feet are pretty weak, just an opinion. Those arguments together are still overall weak, also an opinion.


Most of the arguments for removing feet as an event are pretty weak, just an opinion. Those arguments together are still overall weak, also an opinion.


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## GAN 356 X (Nov 6, 2019)




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## fortissim2 (Nov 6, 2019)

AbsoRuud said:


> I personally think solving a 3x3x3 with feet is incredibly silly. So I have no problems with it being removed.
> 
> But it's pretty sad for people who are good at it that it's getting removed.
> 
> How about we add 2x2x2 OH instead and put the Rubik's Magic back, but instead of just going from solved state A to solved state B, it actually gets scrambled into a random state and people have to solve it that way?


I don't think 2x2x2 OH should be a WCA event because it's already stupid enough, but a scrambled Rubik's Magic might be a good idea. A problem with that though is that you can't really put notation to it because of the way the Rubik's Magic is designed.


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## cubeshepherd (Nov 17, 2019)

So although this link: https://github.com/thewca/wca-regulations/issues/857 is intended for the idea of creating Tiers for events in the WCA, most of the talk in that link is related to 3x3 FT and if it should be relegated to a class 2 tier or be removed altogether, and as you will see several people think that having tiers at all make no sense at all.


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## ImmolatedMarmoset (Dec 31, 2019)

Hello everybody.

Because of the unfortunate events leading to feet’s impending removal, we would like to stand strong. Please make your last solve of 2019 a recorded 3x3 with Feet solve. Please share this message all across social media to get the word around to pay respects to this beloved event. We need to stand strong. With videos of feet solving, there is nothing we can’t do.

Thank you very much.


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