# Breaking sub-30 on 3x3



## Twix (Feb 12, 2011)

OK. I own a Dayan Guhong cube which has decreased my time, i havent put anything in it yet, waiting to get lubix, but it moves smoothly and well without anything right now. i heard silicone doesnt work well on it but idk.

I use 2 look oll ( and a few more oll's) and full pll. 
i create my crosses on the bottom averaging 5 sec or mostly lower.
yes i do go slow and look ahead.
i also get bipolar times, like i would make 23-28 sec for like 6 solves and then sometimes i would make 30-33 sec solves for the next 7 solves for some reason.
and depending on the oll's, if they favor me or not, i average about 3-5 sec with them and for some pll's i would make themin 3 sec in one solve and take like 6 sec on one of the harder pll's like the (G) perms, those get me the most. and yes i would pause sometimes to see what case it is for the (G) perm.

what my point im trying to get across is, how do i keep my averages below 25 sec and stop it from hitting the 30s?
Thanks


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## freshcuber (Feb 12, 2011)

Here's the thread I posted asking how to get sub-30. Take a look at it, there's some pretty good tips.

http://www.speedsolving.com/forum/showthread.php?24673-What-should-I-focus-on-specifically

Edit: Here's another good thread.

http://www.speedsolving.com/forum/s...drich-Method&highlight=faster+fridrich+method


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## Twix (Feb 12, 2011)

omg thanks yu the last one was like the one answer i need thankd :DDD


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## freshcuber (Feb 12, 2011)

No problem, any other help you need you can throw up another post here or try out the One Answer Question Thread.


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## Clayy9 (Feb 12, 2011)

Twix said:


> i havent put anything in it yet, waiting to get lubix, but it moves smoothly and well without anything right now. i heard silicone doesnt work well on it but idk.


 
Lubix is silicone... Silicone sprays (in my experience) do improve the cube, but I'd still recommend Lubix (over siliicone sprays) for the Guhong.


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## Mike Crozack (Feb 12, 2011)

I'm in the same position as you man,
I tried slowing down my F2L and looking ahead :O, all those sub 20 ppl are right, I got a ao5 of 26.08
but really, they said it all, i've watched all the videos
badmephisto's F2L video
faz's how to get faster series
just slow down your F2L and start looking ahead, and don't expect immediate results


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## Ordos_Koala (Feb 12, 2011)

I just did Ao100 and got only about 5 times 30+... I guess I'll say what anyone else: practice, practice, practice


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## collinbxyz (Feb 12, 2011)

All in the F2L. I am learning full PLL and only know 2 look OLL and I average about sub-25.


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## MaeLSTRoM (Feb 12, 2011)

If you have good/bad OLL and PLL cases, practice the bad ones to become more consistent on them, then your times will be more consistent


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## ElectricDoodie (Feb 12, 2011)

All in F2L.

I average 20 secs. 
Cross: 2-3 sec
F2L: 10-13 secs
LL: 5-8 secs


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## Antcuber (Feb 12, 2011)

P 

r a 

c t i 
c

e


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## EricReese (Feb 12, 2011)

At your speed the only thing that could help is ZBLL


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## uberCuber (Feb 12, 2011)

EricReese said:


> At your speed the only thing that could help is ZBLL


 
^this of course. It is a well known fact that more algs = more fasts



Spoiler



lol


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## TimMc (Feb 13, 2011)

It sounds like you can already sub30. To stop going over just focus. Don't think about anything else while doing the solve.

When you're doing an F2L algorithm, OLL, or PLL don't think about how you're executing it. You should be able to just perform it without thinking (i.e. relying on muscle memory). Just try to observe what the next pattern will be toward the end of executing an algorithm. Then you'll be able to perform the next one without hesitation.

Tim.


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## BC1997 (Feb 13, 2011)

I was like you about a month ago,what I did was i lubricated my cube and got sub-30 but it may not work for you cause you have a guhong. What I recommend is practice hard and try doing the cross blindfolded you'll be sub-27 in no time.


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## EricReese (Feb 13, 2011)

danthecuber said:


> Don't listen to that crap.
> 
> I'd reccommend joining the race to sub 30 thread


 
Your an idiot. 

Clearly you can't tell sarcasm. You're turning into a new HavoCentral.


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## Ranzha (Feb 13, 2011)

EricReese said:


> Your an idiot.
> Clearly you can't tell sarcasm.


 
What if the OP took you seriously? Twix might not know the difference.


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## theace (Feb 13, 2011)

1. Wth does OP mean? I've been reading that acronym quite a lot and it's been baffling me.

2. I'm in a similar situation but trying to get a sub 25 ao12. Should I learn some snazzy f2l algs?

I've been trying the slow down therapy for 2 to 3 days now. I've pretty much done away with my timer lol. I timed myself right now (for an fb comp) and got 22 something ao5. That's quite decent for me. I'm usually JUST below 25.

Also, any tips on the 4x4? I'm trying to get to sub 1:30. I currently hover around 1:40. 1:50 if there's too much parity. Centers are sub 25, edge pairing gets done by 1:05 to 1:15 max.


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## danthecuber (Feb 13, 2011)

theace said:


> 1. Wth does OP mean?


 It means the first post in the thread, or the thread starter.


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## theace (Feb 13, 2011)

That I understand. What's the acronym mean? Opener?


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## Cool Frog (Feb 13, 2011)

ZBLL can't hurt.


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## danthecuber (Feb 13, 2011)

theace said:


> That I understand. What's the acronym mean? Opener?


 
It stands for original poster


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## theace (Feb 13, 2011)

I see! Thanks! Any advice for my 4x4?


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## freshcuber (Feb 13, 2011)

theace said:


> I see! Thanks! Any advice for my 4x4?


 
Try to sub-20 your centers and get your edges down below a minute. 4x4 is nearly all about look ahead once you learn how to solve it. I average about 1:40 which is right around you iirc. I know there's times I spend 5-8 seconds looking for the piece I need. Also drill your parity algs. If they're really slow they can add a lot of time to your solves.


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## theace (Feb 13, 2011)

what's iirc? Sorry but I'm quite the noob when it comes to acronyms!

So should I be slowing down while edging? Also, i use 2 edge pairing around the E slice. Should I stick to that or is there something that is more efficient. My long term goal is to sub 1 the 4x4. I love that cube!

Here's how I go about the entire thing:

White and yellow centeres followed by blue, red and green - orange in that order, always.

Position 2 edges on the e slice. Then, the one on the uw slice should have it's corresponding edge on the fw slice OR the one on the dw should have the corresponding on the bw slice on the opposite side. Then use the pairing move.

Is this fine or is there a better way to go about this? The f2l style 4 pairing slows me down to about 3 minutes as does m slice pairing. I can get centeres and edges done in sub 1:10 on most good solves. I have some sub 1s sometimes too. I lock up a lot during parity. I use the x4


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## ElectricDoodie (Feb 14, 2011)

EricReese said:


> You're turning into a new HavoCentral.


 Hahahahaha, so true!

Whatever happened to that guy? Haven't seen him post in a while, thank God.









theace said:


> what's iirc? Sorry but I'm quite the noob when it comes to acronyms!


 *I*f *I* *R*ecall* C*orrectly.


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## danthecuber (Feb 14, 2011)

ElectricDoodie said:


> Hahahahaha, so true!


 
You're turning into a new lolben

I knew that it was sarcasm, I just didn't want the OP to think so. N00bies can't take that type of sarcasm, they just want an answer.


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## ElectricDoodie (Feb 14, 2011)

danthecuber said:


> You're turning into a new lolben


:fp

Wow...


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## danthecuber (Feb 14, 2011)

Lets make a "You're turning into a new... thread" it would be a very interesting thread to say the least...



ElectricDoodie said:


> Whatever happened to that guy? Haven't seen him post in a while, thank God.


You must be misinformed
Should I change lolben to TheRubiksGod?


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## theace (Feb 14, 2011)

Lets hope on one turns into a new God o' Rubik.


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## devoblue (Feb 14, 2011)

danthecuber said:


> I knew that it was sarcasm, I just didn't want the OP to think so. N00bies can't take that type of sarcasm, they just want an answer.


 
danthecuber

1. You are a NOOb.
2. You are continuously regurgitating what you have read in other posts, but it is clear that in a lot of cases you have no first hand information.
3. Your main objective appears to be to get your post count high.
4. NOObs may well want an answer, but rather than get an informed answer, they get you.
5. It's time to stop posting.


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## ElectricDoodie (Feb 14, 2011)

danthecuber said:


> Lets make a "You're turning into a new... thread" it would be a very interesting thread to say the least...
> 
> 
> You must be misinformed
> Should I change lolben to TheRubiksGod?


 :fp

A link that leads to nothing...


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## danthecuber (Feb 14, 2011)

ElectricDoodie said:


> A link that leads to nothing...


 
If you clicked on find all posts you would see that he posted 20 hours ago.:fp:fp:fp


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## ElectricDoodie (Feb 14, 2011)

danthecuber said:


> If you clicked on find all posts you would see that he posted 20 hours ago.


So, you said I was misinformed?

I clearly said, "*I *haven't *seen* him post," which doesn't mean someone informed me, nor that I said he doesn't post. 
I clearly said that I am the one to not have seen him post.

:fp
There you go again, posting links to prove nothing.


Oh, and that other link of yours didn't have an "All posts" section.
Just this: "Sorry - no matches. Please try some different terms."


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## danthecuber (Feb 14, 2011)

That's you




:fp:fp:fp


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## freshcuber (Feb 14, 2011)

devoblue said:


> danthecuber
> 
> 1. You are a NOOb.
> 2. You are continuously regurgitating what you have read in other posts, but it is clear that in a lot of cases you have no first hand information.
> ...


 
I find it funny that danthecuber chose to ignore your post but continued to respond to ElectricDoodie's. So I guess I'll hop in here. danthecuber. Stop posting uselessly. You may answer one or two noobs questions correctly but all you do is link to another, more informed persons post. STOP POSTING. Did you get that? In case you didn't here it is again:


*STOP POSTING*

You don't know much about cubing. I'm not trying to be mean when I say that but I've been for over half of a year and I don't know all that much about cubing relative to some of our veteran members here. Learn from the veteran members and emulate them. By this I mean look at somebody like Chris Hardwick or Mike Hughey. Easily some of the most helpful members here. They can actually discuss many different topics from juggling to speedcubing to BLD to other random things in depth. Until you can respond to someones question without having to link someone elses response stop posting. 

One more time for ya:


*STOP POSTING*


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## EricReese (Feb 14, 2011)

danthecuber said:


> You're turning into a new lolben
> 
> I knew that it was sarcasm, I just didn't want the OP to think so. N00bies can't take that type of sarcasm, they just want an answer.


 
:fp

So Doodle is faking his times? If you were trying to insult him I would have gone with the insult that hes the new TK421. But hes not. What I said has truth to it. You post way too much for your level of knowledge.


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## RyanReese09 (Feb 14, 2011)

danthecuber said:


> You're turning into a new lolben
> 
> I knew that it was sarcasm, I just didn't want the OP to think so. N00bies can't take that type of sarcasm, they just want an answer.


 
Can you stop being an a hole? Every single post from you reeks the stench of stir fried bum.


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## Godmil (Feb 14, 2011)

Sorry for derailing back to the topic but...



Twix said:


> ...and take like 6 sec on one of the harder pll's like the (G) perms, those get me the most.



You should definitely work on your G Perms (since they come up 2/9 times), other than the y turns the main body of the G perm is super smooth on each of them. Try watching some slow execution videos by people like Breandan (Jammyman3014 on youtube) to get better finger tricks for them.


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## JoeNev (Feb 27, 2012)

*Tips on getting sub 30?*

Okay, so I have been cubing for about two months (I learned how to solve one a few years ago, but only in the last 2 months have I been speedcubing) and have gotten my average to the 37-39 range, but want to get sub 30 for my average. 

I usually finish my F2L in slightly under 30 seconds and then use 2 look OLL and 2 look PLL. Besides memorizing the full OLL and the full PLL, any tips for getting my average down to sub 30?

Thanks!


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## PandaCuber (Feb 27, 2012)

Working on that F2L. Turn slow and Look ahead.


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## JoeNev (Feb 27, 2012)

Looking ahead is what I have the most trouble with. Any tips for that, or how to work on it? 

And just got a 29.84


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## PandaCuber (Feb 27, 2012)

You can read this. 

Or watch this. 

How to practice your F2L


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## rubikmaster (Feb 27, 2012)

Learning full PLL could definitely help you cut your times down by about 4-5 seconds and other than that just practice a lot and get a good cube and lube it.That is how you can perform algorithms faster and improve your Last Layer.But I reccomend you to do that after you get sub-30.WIth a 7-10 second Last Layer your F2L should be about 20 seconds.So the main thing you need to focus on right now is your F2L.Don't turn as fast as you can during F2L.Turn slowly and while you turn try looking for other F2L pairs you're going to solve next.You will actually notice that if you turn a bit slower your times will be faster.I know it's kind of weird,but it's true.Lookahead will not be easy for you the first time you try to do it.You really just have to practice it.Don't worry.No matter what happens,if you keep practicing,you WILL improve.


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## jeff081692 (Feb 27, 2012)

As for look ahead, one exercise you can try is to when you get to F2L look at the pair you want to solve then close your eyes and solve it. Do this for the remaining 3 pairs too and just practice that for a while, then the next step would be during your solves to force yourself not to look at the pair you are solving but look anywhere else on the cube so you can instantly start on the next pair when you finish the current one. I am sub 20 and I still don't follow this advice all the time but my most consistent good F2L solves come when I slow down and follow this method. Obviously with practice you will get better at knowing where to look and be able to predict orientation of corners and edges better but just start small and work your way up.


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## skeletonboy (Feb 27, 2012)

You know what? I was in the SAME situation as you, and I was about to start a thread JUST like this.

And I broke the sub 30 line and became a sub-30 solver, just WEEKS ago. I can still remember freshly how I did it.

Ignore the LL for now. Worry about it when you are a full sub-30 solver.
The F2l is what makes you improve and made the most help and difference to break sub-30. Practice your lookahead. 

You might be asking "PPL ARE ASKING ME TO LOOKAHEAD, HOW??? WTF!?!?"
Turn slowly, this will allow you to look and stable your vision more so you will be able to recognize F2L pairs rather than a sudden cluster of colors.
Turn as slow as you want so you can recognize other pieces while doing your current pair SUB-consciously. How to do it sub-consciously? Practice and get used to your reaction to F2L cases. 

Practice more, learn solutions to new cases, learn even better solution to F2L cases.
This will give you a good F2L base of knowledge. Then you will be able to do it subconsciously. 
When you can do it subconsciously, you are technically able to do lookahead, just try to find other pieces while subconsciously executing current solution.
Practice the lookahead again and again
-----Done-----


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## HeyCuber (Feb 27, 2012)

Hey, I'm in a similar situation right now. Things I'm trying to practice right now to be constant sub-30:

F2L look-ahead
Less cube rotations during F2L
"Blind" cross to improve look-ahead

Slowly learning full OLL (I already know full PLL)
X-cross, well, sometimes

Good luck!


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## PandaCuber (Feb 27, 2012)

HeyCuber said:


> Hey, I'm in a similar situation right now. Things I'm trying to practice right now to be constant sub-30:
> 
> F2L look-ahead
> Less cube rotations during F2L
> ...


 
Thats a lot to learn at once. I think you should mainly focus on BLD cross and F2L Look ahead. You can leave the rest till youre sub 20.


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## HeyCuber (Feb 27, 2012)

PandaCuber said:


> Thats a lot to learn at once. I think you should mainly focus on BLD cross and F2L Look ahead. You can leave the rest till youre sub 20.


 
Thank you. Although, I can't really practice all of that at once. But I really want to get OLL out of the way. I know about half OLL now.


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## MichaelErskine (Feb 27, 2012)

Hmmm, I've been chasing sub-30 since 2008 and I can tell you from experience that there's more to being crap at speedcubing than can be remedied with repetition of the usual advice! If you haven't cracked it in by summer 2015 you are qualified to join my support group


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## skeletonboy (Feb 28, 2012)

MichaelErskine said:


> Hmmm, I've been chasing sub-30 since 2008 and I can tell you from experience that there's more to being crap at speedcubing than can be remedied with repetition of the usual advice! If you haven't cracked it in by summer 2015 you are qualified to join my support group


 
I recommend really trying to improve. For me it took 2 months to get full sub-30. For faz...well...I might estimate 2 weeks maybe?


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## aznanimedude (Feb 28, 2012)

i think fully learning all the plls is what got me sub-30
that plus realizing that faster is not better when you're doing f2l helped alot too

and practice is not to be underestimated =D

good luck


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## radmin (Feb 28, 2012)

For me sub 30 just means not making any mistakes. Usually if anything goes wrong I go above 30. 

As far as look ahead, if I go too slow, I have a hard time detaching from the pair I'm working on. If I go too fast its all a blur.
I do corner preference, which means when I see a corner, I try to find it's edge second. I don't look for corners. I wait until they move into sight then I kind of look for it's edge. F2l has to be in muscle memory for it to work.


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## MichaelErskine (Feb 28, 2012)

skeletonboy said:


> I recommend really trying to improve.



:confused: ...as opposed to what? Not really trying to improve? I try dammit


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## blakedacuber (Feb 28, 2012)

MichaelErskine said:


> :confused: ...as opposed to what? Not really trying to improve? I try dammit


 
have you got any sub 30 avg? and how many OLL's and PLL's do you know?


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## stoic (Feb 28, 2012)

MichaelErskine said:


> Hmmm, I've been chasing sub-30 since 2008 and I can tell you from experience that there's more to being crap at speedcubing than can be remedied with repetition of the usual advice! If you haven't cracked it in by summer 2015 you are qualified to join my support group


 
I've been in the race to sub-30 for six months...where do I sign up?


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## MichaelErskine (Feb 28, 2012)

blakedacuber said:


> have you got any sub 30 avg? and how many OLL's and PLL's do you know?


 
Hi Blake, I don't want to hijack Joe's thread but just to let you know, I've had countless sub 30 averages of 5 (but not in competition) and maybe about 40 sub 30 averages of 12, but I've never achieved a sub-30 average of 100 (the last one was about 33). My first sub-30 single was on Xmas day 2008. I've had full PLL for probably two years and I have enough OLLs to be getting along with! (I'm not at all adept at learning and retaining algorithms BTW). I'm living proof that some people just ain't got what it takes -- and yeah, I'm probably doing it wrong!


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## radmin (Feb 28, 2012)

Maybe it would help to trick you brain back into learning/improving mode. There was a thread on this a while back.

Perhaps it would help to switch cube colors, black to white or white to black. Then go color neutral for a while. Just to get your brain off auto pilot. You can also try using a metronome and making one turn per click. The goal is to shake up your thinking.


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## skeletonboy (Feb 28, 2012)

Try looking at some of the great practice or technique threads around here, they can help you. Since you already have a sturdy LL, why not work on your F2L such as practicing?


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## crazycubes (Aug 2, 2013)

*Why can't I get sub 30?*

Hi all !
I have an average of 45 sec and a best of 36 sec. But however hard I try, I cant get sub sec ( which is the stepping stone to my dream sub 20). I follow intuitive f2l and know 2 look oll and 2 look pll. I take-
26 sec to solve the f2l (8 sec to solve the cross)
10 sec to solve oll and 10 sec to solve pll

Should I learn full pll??? Is my cross slow? Should i get better timings for oll and pll i.e. the last layer itself????
I dont solve the cube a lot number of times every day, my max. being around 100 solves. So I need to know my weak point rather than shuffling and solving the whole cube.
What am I doing wrong?:confused::confused:


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## YddEd (Aug 2, 2013)

So like maybe you just have to work on F2L.
Oh and this.Or this.


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## krnballerzzz (Aug 2, 2013)

It seems like you already know the answers to your problem. A sub 2.5 second cross is easily doable. With someone at your speed, 100 solves a day is actually quite a lot of solves. Focus your practice on learning better F2L because intuitive F2L can only get you so far.


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## kunparekh18 (Aug 2, 2013)

For breaking the sub30 barrier I had to learn full PLL, try doing that, also practice f2l and try looking ahead


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## ultimatecuber (Aug 2, 2013)

1)Yes.
2)Absolutely.
3)Just learn full PLL. You dont need to learn full OLL until you are sub-20

P.S. Lubricate your cube, if not already done.
Tensioning is a must too.
Lookahead too.


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## Dene (Aug 2, 2013)

The problem is your recognition. The only way to improve this is a lot of practise. 100 solves a day will be fine, just keep going. Try to learn more algorithms along the way.


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## mark49152 (Aug 2, 2013)

For a 30 second solve, a good breakdown would be cross 3.5, pairs 15, OLL 5, PLL 6.5. That's not set in stone nor the same for everybody, but can be used as a guide to figure out your biggest weakness. Once you identify your biggest weakness, practise it or learn new techniques or algs until it is not your biggest anymore. Then move on. Repeat until sub-10...


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## piyushp761 (Aug 2, 2013)

make ur cross faster!! I had the same timings of cross when I was 45 seconds and now I am sub 20. You should be able to make the cross in 2-4 seconds. Try to use your inspection time for that. No need to learn full PLL and *PRACTICE ALOT* do at least 3-4 ao12 each day!!


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## radmin (Aug 2, 2013)

I didn't go below 30 seconds until I finished full oll and pll. 
I don't know why.

My advice is this: practice is not timed solves. I practice without a timer looking for ways to improve. If you find an issue, address it, drill it. Use a timer to gauge your progress. 
If you can't plan the cross work on it. If you find a weak f2l case, stop make a note of it and work on it. In a timed solve you forget the thing you messed up by the end. At least I do.
Doing timed solves for an hour a day hasn't helped me improve. I'm having to re-think what practice is. Timed solves just help me maintain where I'm at.

Just my 2 cents.


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## ianliu64 (Aug 3, 2013)

Watch some tutorials on advanced crosses. Also, practice your F2L more and learn lookahead.
P.S. I really don't think you should start learning full PLL. I only started when I was averaging 28 seconds.


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## crazycubes (Aug 5, 2013)

So u guys think I've gotta improve my f2l and cross?
But is my oll/pll fast enough? I think it's incredibly slow since i average 5 seconds per algorithm.
thnx for the replies and iam sorry i couldnt reply sooner.
Oh and is a video of my solves requiered?


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## Robocopter87 (Aug 5, 2013)

Yeah your PLL and OLL is slow, but if you were to drop them to 3 sec per alg, you would lose about 6 seconds off your average.

You average 45 seconds. You want to average sub-30. 45-6 =/= sub 30.

Yes, you really should learn them, but the advice you came here searching for was to improve the crap out of your F2L and cross.

Just practice.


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## kcl (Aug 5, 2013)

Seriously. I got sub 23 with 4LLL. You don't need anything special. Just make your cross sub 3 and f2l sub 20.


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## crazycubes (Aug 6, 2013)

Can anybody provide me a link for a video? 'cause most of them show 'how to solve the rubiks' and not 'how to solve a cross in under 6 moves'.
Thnx


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## yockee (Aug 6, 2013)

crazycubes said:


> Hi all !
> I have an average of 45 sec and a best of 36 sec. But however hard I try, I cant get sub sec ( which is the stepping stone to my dream sub 20). I follow intuitive f2l and know 2 look oll and 2 look pll. I take-
> 26 sec to solve the f2l (8 sec to solve the cross)
> 10 sec to solve oll and 10 sec to solve pll
> ...



Watch this video. I go over a lot of things, so surely some of it will help you. I don't advise worrying about look ahead at the moment. You can get down to 20 sec without it. Work on cross and F2L more than anything. 






Also, below is a link for some in depth cross examples. I average 14, so it should be good enough.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUt9ivl-teE


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## crazycubes (Aug 14, 2013)

Thanks. the videos were informative. Guess what?? my average drops to 40 sec and my best to 32 sec. Even though i've improved my cross its still around 9 moves. And my pll's got a lot better. can solve it in 7 sec. Looking forward to being sub 30.
oh and sorry for the late reply( as usual). I just cant help it no time!!!!


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## dacuberproduct (Aug 14, 2013)

you just need to learn advanced cross and you don't have to work on your f2l *yet, i recommend you learn most of the plls, learn the T perm, R perm, and then the G perms. Learn the N perms last because in my opinion they are the hardest algs, and they appear on your cube the least. And work on your fingertricks. Your cube might matter depending on your fingertricks


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## speedcuber115 (Aug 14, 2013)

time all your oll's and pll's and then drill the slowest ones until they are no longer the slowest. keep doing this and your algs will get faster very quickly.


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## cubingsamurai (Jun 29, 2014)

*So difficult to improve past sub 30*

I have been cubing since December and all this time I still don't even have a average of sub-30. I feel so frustrated because I'm solving the cube so many times and I don't seem to be improving. I can solve any F2l case, I know 4 look last layer. I just want to know if there's anybody out there who finds it so difficult to beat an average that seems so slow to others. I have such a hard time memorizing algorithms and I can sometimes forget these algorithms. I keep practicing but nothing helps and timing my solves just gets me inconsistent times, some including 40 seconds or over and it discourages me because I like speed cubing and want to get fast. My shortest time is only 19.44. I have times where I think my look-ahead is very fast and sometimes I pause for seconds. Can anybody give me some tips or motivation? Is there anybody out there going through the same thing?


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## brian724080 (Jun 29, 2014)

It sounds like you may be having trouble with your 4LLL. If you sometimes forget the algs, it might also be the case that you're not proficient with the recognition, so that there is probably the easiest way to start. Next, you have to think about the cases during F2L. You stated that you can solve any F2L case, which is good, but you need to lessen the time in between F2L pairs. Often times it is very difficult to stay focused, so you shouldn't be discouraged by that.


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## Villyer (Jun 29, 2014)

I have a fairly large spread at times too, I consider myself sub-25 but I will occasionally have two solves in a row over thirty seconds. Often when I do it's because I pause for a while finding the next f2l pair (caused by not knowing how to blindly insert the previous, so my look ahead is hindered) or because I pause trying to remember an algorithm for OLL (having just recently started learning one look)


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## Hypocrism (Jun 29, 2014)

Full PLL is a start; slowing down on F2L and making it more efficient with fewer pauses is the long term improvement strategy.


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## CriticalCubing (Jun 29, 2014)

Try learning full pll and go slow with minimal pauses! Improve recognition for the 2 look oll and then pll. With this you can be 22 sec or sub 20! Practice lookahead also but it takes time to get used to it!


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## Nilsibert (Jun 29, 2014)

I learned full PLL from the start, so I don't know how much difference it makes to 2look. But in general I'd say: Stop timing yourself! Just solve, study your cross and F2L cases. Maybe there's much better ways for certain F2L cases? When I was stuck at over 40 seconds, that's what I did and I almost jumped to sub 30s solves after a few days. I wouldn't even worry TOO much about look ahead yet. Watch example solves by faster people for fingertricks and cases.


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## Future Cuber (Jun 29, 2014)

cubingsamurai said:


> I have been cubing since December and all this time I still don't even have a average of sub-30. I feel so frustrated because I'm solving the cube so many times and I don't seem to be improving. I can solve any F2l case, I know 4 look last layer. I just want to know if there's anybody out there who finds it so difficult to beat an average that seems so slow to others. I have such a hard time memorizing algorithms and I can sometimes forget these algorithms. I keep practicing but nothing helps and timing my solves just gets me inconsistent times, some including 40 seconds or over and it discourages me because I like speed cubing and want to get fast. My shortest time is only 19.44. I have times where I think my look-ahead is very fast and sometimes I pause for seconds. Can anybody give me some tips or motivation? Is there anybody out there going through the same thing?



I say... you do the 3x3 stage on the 6x6 and 7x7 and keep your 3x3 aside
why??? because your turning speed will be slow and lookahead will improve alot 
and you're used to big cubes and the 3x3 will be very small in your hands

And then you come back to 3x3 and notice the improvement
I have experinced this ......... :tu
Good luck


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## Betashadow9991 (Jun 29, 2014)

I get what you are going through dude it took me awhile to get past my 45 second barrier but just keep learning finger tricks and faster f2l and make sure to start on the bottom, less x,y, and z movement helps speed.

Yeah that's true but I wouldn't agree, he shouldn't put down the 3x3 completely, but he should focus on he larger sizes if they are more comfortable. But completely putting down a cube wouldn't be wise in my eyes.


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## mark49152 (Jun 29, 2014)

I would say learn full PLL, and drill algs repeatedly on their own to develop TPS. Also, F2L practice. You should be able to solve just the 4 pairs in about 15s. If you're much slower than that, make sure you have efficient solutions to each case, and try F2L practice techniques like solving pairs blind.


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## RicardoRix (Jul 3, 2014)

I've been cubing for over a year, and am stuck and have been for about 6 months on a global average of 38. I know full PLL and have done since the start. The pauses and the getting algs wrong is a real PITA too. My biggest grief is that I just can't see pairs, occasionally a 4 or 5 second pause looking for a pair is really painful.
My turning speed is not the best. Slowing down trying to be smooth and look-ahead or going as fast as I can make no difference. I don't believe that I will get significantly faster in the future. If I get a sub30 then everything falls into place with a lot of easy F2L cases and such. Even then I can feel like I've done nothing particularly wrong and have little or no pauses and still get a 40.

I think some of us just aren't cut from the same cloth. I'm guessing (or rather hoping) that fast people are very positive and vocal and the slower solvers tend to hide in the shadows a bit more readily.


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## DeeDubb (Jul 3, 2014)

RicardoRix said:


> I've been cubing for over a year, and am stuck and have been for about 6 months on a global average of 38. I know full PLL and have done since the start. The pauses and the getting algs wrong is a real PITA too. My biggest grief is that I just can't see pairs, occasionally a 4 or 5 second pause looking for a pair is really painful.
> My turning speed is not the best. Slowing down trying to be smooth and look-ahead or going as fast as I can make no difference. I don't believe that I will get significantly faster in the future. If I get a sub30 then everything falls into place with a lot of easy F2L cases and such. Even then I can feel like I've done nothing particularly wrong and have little or no pauses and still get a 40.
> 
> I think some of us just aren't cut from the same cloth. I'm guessing (or rather hoping) that fast people are very positive and vocal and the slower solvers tend to hide in the shadows a bit more readily.



I agree, everyone has different limits, but I think it's still possible for you to improve beyond 38 seconds. Try learning new methods for F2L, or even look at other methods like Roux or ZZ that might click with you a little better.

But, it's also easier for people to tell if you can post a video of your solves. I agree that slower solvers tend to be less vocal on the forums, maybe out of intimidation, but I think for the most part the very fast people are supportive and also enjoy seeing progress from slower people. If someone improves from 1:30 to 1:00, I think that's just as awesome as seeing someone go from 10 seconds to 9.5 seconds. It's fun to watch improvement in everyone. The thing I love about cubing is the competition against yourself.


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## Dane man (Jul 3, 2014)

There are actually quite a few factors that affect how fast someone gets. It's not so much that it's hard to get faster beyond sub-30 as it is that the gains for the additional changes get smaller. The closer we get to 0, the more work it'll take to get faster.

What are the things that affect speed the most?

1 - Solving method and knowledge about it (advanced F2L, 2LLL, EO-Line, Block building, Reduction methods, etc).
2 - Fingertricks and speedily executed algorithms.
4 - Practice and drilling (for example, drilling algorithms to perfect their execution and speed, or practicing F2L look-ahead, or EO-Line, or blockbuilding, PLL recog, etc.).

And there are two things that slow us down the most. Our hands, and our minds. 

If we take too long executing algorithms, then we should perhaps look to find a more optimal algorithm and perfect it's fingertricking (even if you have to add unusual things like using your left ring finger to perform D moves), and then drill it until it can be executed at maximum speed (this will also increase your flexibility in using other fingertricks). Repeat this exercise frequently with your slowest algorithms.

If we take too long to recognize what we need to do next, then we should drill that as well. Be it F2L pairs and lookahead, or OLL/PLL recog, or EO-Line setup, or whatever. Practice and drill it until the recognition becomes instantaneous and the execution becomes automatic. And go slow and look ahead when practicing these so that you can more easily build the habit of execution without pausing.

There are plenty of threads, discussions, and even videos about these techniques. You can find everything from PLL recog systems using just two sides to a site full of F2L algorithms to example solves on youtube by WR holders. These tools are there so that we can juice from them every split second of advantage that we can get.

And it's not just the things that get us the big speed increases, but it's the combination of the hundreds of simple things that give split second advantages. Like drops in a bucket, they add up.

To respond to the statement "It's hard to get faster sub-30", if by 'hard' you mean difficult, then not so much. But if by 'hard' you mean hard work, then absolutely. But it is absolutely possible, and I believe that anyone, given the dedication, can improve a great deal beyond sub-30, and even sub-20.

So don't get discouraged, you can do it, I know you can. Just continue to learn, adapt, drill, and practice, and you'll get better. It could take some time to fully accustom to the changes and get faster speeds, but they will come if you keep trying.


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## DeeDubb (Jul 3, 2014)

I agree with Dane man. I would like to add a very basic way to conceptualize speed solving

Seconds to solve = Turns / Turns per Second

So, the only way to lower the amount of seconds it takes us to solve is either to increase our turns per second or lower our turns.

_How we raise our TPS:_
Practice timed solves... over and over and over and over.... I think people should count how long they've been cubing by the amount of solves they've done instead of the amount of months/years they've been solving.
Learn more efficient algorithms (do you find something doesn't work well with your style? Find a better algorithm that you can execute faster)
Incorporate algorithms into muscle memory by drilling them
Reduce pauses (this is something that just takes practice, but it's not something you can train for specifically very well, IMO)
Study finger trick videos


_How we lower our turns_
Learn more algorithms (already learned PLL? Add OLL, already have OLL? Look at VLS, Winter variation, COLL, etc...)
Learn more about the fundamentals of the cube
Practice untimed solves to experiment with different ways of solving particular cases and steps
Study example solve videos



I think we often neglect the second part because we get comfortable with the way we solve the cube, and trying to add new tools to the arsenal requires taking a step backwards before we see results (I'm still working on getting my color neutral times down to my fixed block times).


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## SolveThatCube (Jul 3, 2014)

Dude, don't stress.


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## Cuddly Cuber (Jul 3, 2014)

Practice doing slow solves with constant look ahead and no stops. I've hit a barrier except I can't get sub 20 averages :/. Just keep practicing and eventually you'll get there!


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## bran (Jul 3, 2014)

Try turning as fast as you can for a week or two, to improve your raw TPS. Then, try to reduce pauses in your solves, gradually decreasing your turn speed if you find it hard to 'not pause'. Hope it helps


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## mark49152 (Jul 3, 2014)

RicardoRix said:


> I've been cubing for over a year, and am stuck and have been for about 6 months on a global average of 38. I know full PLL and have done since the start. The pauses and the getting algs wrong is a real PITA too. My biggest grief is that I just can't see pairs, occasionally a 4 or 5 second pause looking for a pair is really painful.
> My turning speed is not the best. Slowing down trying to be smooth and look-ahead or going as fast as I can make no difference. I don't believe that I will get significantly faster in the future. If I get a sub30 then everything falls into place with a lot of easy F2L cases and such. Even then I can feel like I've done nothing particularly wrong and have little or no pauses and still get a 40.
> 
> I think some of us just aren't cut from the same cloth. I'm guessing (or rather hoping) that fast people are very positive and vocal and the slower solvers tend to hide in the shadows a bit more readily.


Lots of good advice already but I would just add that like many, I also hit plateaus and thought I wouldn't improve. Mine were around 45, then 32, and now 22. Just keep exploring different practice methods and don't fall into the trap of just practising unproductively. Always think about what you can improve and how.

Specifically, and these might not be best for everybody, but my top two tips would be to drill algs as fast as possible to develop general TPS, and practise solving F2L pairs blind (also as fast as possible) to help free the eyes for finding the next pair.


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## PJKCuber (Jul 3, 2014)

RicardoRix said:


> I've been cubing for over a year, and am stuck and have been for about 6 months on a global average of 38. I know full PLL and have done since the start. The pauses and the getting algs wrong is a real PITA too. My biggest grief is that I just can't see pairs, occasionally a 4 or 5 second pause looking for a pair is really painful.
> My turning speed is not the best. Slowing down trying to be smooth and look-ahead or going as fast as I can make no difference. I don't believe that I will get significantly faster in the future. If I get a sub30 then everything falls into place with a lot of easy F2L cases and such. Even then I can feel like I've done nothing particularly wrong and have little or no pauses and still get a 40.
> 
> I think some of us just aren't cut from the same cloth. I'm guessing (or rather hoping) that fast people are very positive and vocal and the slower solvers tend to hide in the shadows a bit more readily.



Work harder on F2L Lookahead. I don't know full PLL and average 25 in 2 months.


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## pipkiksass (Jul 3, 2014)

mark49152 said:


> Lots of good advice already but I would just add that like many, I also hit plateaus and thought I wouldn't improve. Mine were around 45, then 32, and now 22. Just keep exploring different practice methods and don't fall into the trap of just practising unproductively. Always think about what you can improve and how.
> 
> Specifically, and these might not be best for everybody, but my top two tips would be to drill algs as fast as possible to develop general TPS, and practise solving F2L pairs blind (also as fast as possible) to help free the eyes for finding the next pair.



Ugh Mark... 22 was horrendous for me. Just awful! As ever, lookahead is the key. I just don't understand how Faz etc al. can do cross+1 in 1.5 seconds, but I guess it's something to aspire to!


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## mark49152 (Jul 3, 2014)

pipkiksass said:


> Ugh Mark... 22 was horrendous for me. Just awful! As ever, lookahead is the key. I just don't understand how Faz etc al. can do cross+1 in 1.5 seconds, but I guess it's something to aspire to!


Yeah 22 feels different. Of course those other plateaus were hard to break, but I could always clearly see room for improvement - slow TPS, too much reliance on 2-look, pauses looking for pairs or recognising cases, clumsy rotations, etc. Those things felt slow.

At 22 it feels like there's not much room for improvement. I'm going as fast as I can imagine going, good repertoire of well-practised algs, not pausing much, recognising cases quickly, etc. I find it hard to imagine going much faster. There's just not as much slack to take up, and it takes more work to make smaller progressions.

Of course I do know that there IS room for improvement, it just doesn't feel like it. I also know what I need to do, and I have a plan, and am still enjoying it. One day I'll be pushing sub-15 and looking back saying "22 was easy compared to this"


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## Petro Leum (Jul 3, 2014)

how many hours per day do you practise?


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## mark49152 (Jul 3, 2014)

Petro Leum said:


> how many hours per day do you practise?


Who is that directed at? The previous post (mine) or the OP?

If you meant me, I'm lucky if I can find an hour a day to do proper practice, but I do spend a lot of time absent-mindedly solving or drilling while on conference calls for work


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## Petro Leum (Jul 4, 2014)

mark49152 said:


> Who is that directed at? The previous post (mine) or the OP?
> 
> If you meant me, I'm lucky if I can find an hour a day to do proper practice, but I do spend a lot of time absent-mindedly solving or drilling while on conference calls for work



i meant the op.


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## SpicyOranges (Jul 4, 2014)

[video=youtube_share;fvqPxNv292c]http://youtu.be/fvqPxNv292c[/video]

Its not that hard.


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## DeeDubb (Jul 4, 2014)

SpicyOranges said:


> Its not that hard.



I guess I'll complicate my formula a bit to add another factor

T = Seconds to Solve
S = TPS (without pauses)
M = Turns (moves)
P = Pause Time

T = (M/S) + P

So, your 30 second solve was very little P (only one I saw was at PLL). Your M count was efficient and low, so your S didn't have to be as high, because the other two were good. You will never see an actual 30 second solver solve like that. Their S will be higher, but their P will also be much higher and their M will probably also be higher because they aren't accustomed to very efficient moves. This is a good demonstration about how you can be fast without actually turning fast though if your other factors are good.


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## PJKCuber (Jul 4, 2014)

I continously average 25 seconds without any improvement. How can I get better?


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## SpicyOranges (Jul 4, 2014)

PJKCuber said:


> I continously average 25 seconds without any improvement. How can I get better?



Could you upload a video? That would help to critique your individual problems.


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## Ltsurge (Jul 5, 2014)

I think I am in a similar position just maybe a bit further down the line. I global average something like 16 but I am finding it really tough to break sub 15. It seems no matter how much practice, LL F2L just anything, metronome etc I just can't budge from my current average. Its certainly frustrating but I think it just takes alot ALOT of practice. I mean watching the top cuber's walkthrough solves, I can see that their solutions are not much different than mine. In my case its tps because I have fluid solves (I rarely have pauses) its just my actual physical technique (i.e. Regrips, rotations, poor fingertricking) that's holding me back. 

Hope this helps somewhat.


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## GuRoux (Jul 5, 2014)

Ltsurge said:


> I think I am in a similar position just maybe a bit further down the line. I global average something like 16 but I am finding it really tough to break sub 15. It seems no matter how much practice, LL F2L just anything, metronome etc I just can't budge from my current average. Its certainly frustrating but I think it just takes alot ALOT of practice. I mean watching the top cuber's walkthrough solves, I can see that their solutions are not much different than mine. In my case its tps because I have fluid solves (I rarely have pauses) its just my actual physical technique (i.e. Regrips, rotations, poor fingertricking) that's holding me back.
> 
> Hope this helps somewhat.



yeah, the 16 second barrier was when i started to hit "barriers."


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## PJKCuber (Jul 5, 2014)

SpicyOranges said:


> Could you upload a video? That would help to critique your individual problems.



Ok I will tommorrow.


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## brian724080 (Jul 5, 2014)

GuRoux said:


> yeah, the 16 second barrier was when i started to hit "barriers."



Same with me. However, I think my problem is that my ZZF2L's movecount is too high, so I'm going through all the F2L cases to solve that problem.


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## guysensei1 (Jul 5, 2014)

Yeah, the 16 second barrier is hard. I've been here for quite some time now. I've gotten more and more 15.xx ao12s, and a few sub 15 ao5s, but I don't think I've fully broken the barrier yet.


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## RicardoRix (Jul 5, 2014)

SpicyOranges said:


> Its not that hard.



Yeah, for you!
Same analogy from _who wants to be a millionaire_, the questions are only easy if you know the answers.

[video=youtube_share;Tl3qj82gjes]http://youtu.be/Tl3qj82gjes[/video]


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## mark49152 (Jul 5, 2014)

RicardoRix said:


> Yeah, for you!
> Same analogy from _who wants to be a millionaire_, the questions are only easy if you know the answers.
> 
> [video=youtube_share;Tl3qj82gjes]http://youtu.be/Tl3qj82gjes[/video]


Yeah this gets repeated a lot and is really annoying when you are struggling to get sub-30. However, there is some truth in it, in that you don't have to do anything special to get sub-30. It's just practice. You don't need super-fast TPS, nor all 78 algs, nor lookahead. You need moderate TPS and to be able to recognise cases and find pairs without too much pause.

I was stuck at 32 for ages and for me the thing that broke me through was blind practice of F2L pairs. I thought I was learning and practising lookahead, but with hindsight it wasn't that - I was just getting quicker at finding the next pair, as a result of not visually tracking the current pair. Once that clicked, I dropped to 28 almost overnight and continued to more slowly improve from there.


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## DeeDubb (Jul 7, 2014)

RicardoRix said:


> Yeah, for you!
> Same analogy from _who wants to be a millionaire_, the questions are only easy if you know the answers.



I just went back and rewatched the first Ao12 I posted a few months back. It looks similar to your video (other than us doing different techniques).

I didn't really change anything, I just kept practicing, and after a few months I got down to sub-23. Also, my actual turn speed isn't much faster than when I was solving over 40 seconds, I just do better solves and pause less.

*4/10*:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcRydS6yw78


*6/14*
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U4kDGXesYDg

So, don't worry about your turn speed. Just keep practicing timed and untimed solves. You will spot things faster and learn more efficient techniques. Keep your chin up!


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## Imago (Jul 7, 2014)

i was using beginners method 
then i started to get serious i shift to CFOP
after that it was like so easy

i learned Full PLL in one week it cut my times by almost half 
22 algs total

my F2L is rotationless and intuitive solve
R U R' with r
L' U L with l

kinda not that friendly fingertrick but it works for me..


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## DaveyCow (Jul 7, 2014)

cubingsamurai said:


> I have been cubing since December and all this time I still don't even have a average of sub-30. I feel so frustrated because I'm solving the cube so many times and I don't seem to be improving. I can solve any F2l case, I know 4 look last layer. I just want to know if there's anybody out there who finds it so difficult to beat an average that seems so slow to others. I have such a hard time memorizing algorithms and I can sometimes forget these algorithms. I keep practicing but nothing helps and timing my solves just gets me inconsistent times, some including 40 seconds or over and it discourages me because I like speed cubing and want to get fast. My shortest time is only 19.44. I have times where I think my look-ahead is very fast and sometimes I pause for seconds. Can anybody give me some tips or motivation? Is there anybody out there going through the same thing?



I don't know if it's motivation but you're doing awesome in my opinion if you're close to sub30 - I've been cubing 3 years and I only average 31  So I'd say don't worry about it - just have fun cubing! A general comment would be to not time yourself for a while - just focus on the solving and working on what you need to work on. Timing yourself will only impede your progress imho.

And also, for me it's helpful to remember that sub30, 20 and even 15 is definitely possible for me (and you) in that it's not a dexterity thing - a CFOP solve takes 50-55 moves - say 60 for an upper bound. Then if you turn continuously at 2 turns per second, you have a 30 second solve! and 3 turns a second gives a 20 second solve! That's not very fast turning at all.... and 4 turns a second gives a 15 second solve! So this is all within our physical limits. Which means the reason we're slower than we want is most likely psychological, as previously mentioned, and it's nice to know that it's not dexterity/turning insanely fast that we have to work on, but to recognize where our thinking is either wrong or slow.


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## tpt8899 (Jul 15, 2014)

One thing I did to get sub-30 was take a 1 month break from cubing. Then spent 1 week on only slow solves and LL practice (got half of full PLL down). Then, I was sub 30.


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## Hypocrism (Jul 15, 2014)

RicardoRix said:


> I've been cubing for over a year, and am stuck and have been for about 6 months on a global average of 38. I know full PLL and have done since the start. The pauses and the getting algs wrong is a real PITA too. My biggest grief is that I just can't see pairs, occasionally a 4 or 5 second pause looking for a pair is really painful.
> My turning speed is not the best. Slowing down trying to be smooth and look-ahead or going as fast as I can make no difference. I don't believe that I will get significantly faster in the future. If I get a sub30 then everything falls into place with a lot of easy F2L cases and such. Even then I can feel like I've done nothing particularly wrong and have little or no pauses and still get a 40.
> 
> I think some of us just aren't cut from the same cloth. I'm guessing (or rather hoping) that fast people are very positive and vocal and the slower solvers tend to hide in the shadows a bit more readily.



This is normal. It takes quite a bit of work to improve once you stop being limited by being unfamiliar with the method and instead have to learn how to look ahead. I think anybody can make at least sub-20.

Stick with the practice and look ahead training. Using a metronome, and gradually increase the speed with which you turn and are able to look ahead with. Do blind pairs, where you find the pair, close your eyes, and execute blind. This helps you to execute the pairs without thinking, and when you can do that reliably it's easier to disconnect from it and concentrate on the rest of the cube.

http://www.metronomeonline.com


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## PeelingStickers (Jul 15, 2014)

a break helps, I took a two month break from 3x3 and came back to be solid sub 15


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## RicardoRix (Jul 15, 2014)

ok, thanks for the advice.
I have been practising blind pairs and really trying to become increasing familiar with all the F2L cases.


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## DGCubes (Jul 15, 2014)

I have motivation for you. I currently average around 17-18 seconds. When I began timing myself, for the longest time, I couldn't get sub-1. Then it was sub-30, then sub-20. Now I look back at those times, and realize I am better one-handed now than I used to be two-handed. As long as you are truly dedicated to speedcubing, you will keep getting faster, but sometimes it is harder than others. I guarantee it, someday soon you'll be looking back at this thread and thinking how slow you are. 

Also, tips:

PRACTICE every day.
Start learning full PLL.


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## Amber (Dec 20, 2014)

*Road to sub 30*

Hey guys thanks for helping me with my last thread! 
Now I'm at sub 40
And am stuck for quite long already I'm currently learning my one look PLL and have improved in my f2L so here are my questions:
1) I can't seem to improve the timing for doing my cross I've seen walk through solves and the way the speedcuber do the white cross, I haven't seen it before..I tried to look up advanced white cross but nothing much.. 
2) Do I need to learn my f2l algs? 
3) when do I need to learn Full OLL
4) I like a fast cube but the aolong is more of controllable than fast I have a ancho but it oftens pop and when I tighten the tensions it's not that fast anymore..I use Maru lube! So currently I'm considering weilong?
5) tips to sub 30??

Thanks in advance


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## TDM (Dec 20, 2014)

https://www.speedsolving.com/forum/showthread.php?6085


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## rjcaste (Dec 20, 2014)

Amber said:


> Hey guys thanks for helping me with my last thread!
> 2) Do I need to learn my f2l algs?
> 3) when do I need to learn Full OLL
> 4) I like a fast cube but the aolong is more of controllable than fast I have a ancho but it oftens pop and when I tighten the tensions it's not that fast anymore..I use Maru lube! So currently I'm considering weilong?
> ...


2) So, I definitely recommend learning algorithms for tough/tricky F2L cases that with intuitive F2L, would probably eat up a lot of your time.
3) I don't recommend learning full OLL yet, you don't even need it for sub-20. This proves that is true: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_NnrYPL0so
4) I haven't even lubed my cube, yet I'm around 20 seconds. Yes, lube and a good cube will make you faster, but what you really need to focus on is to make sure you have every F2L case down so you can do them blindfolded. Then it becomes more of a process than about thinking of it. It should really go to your muscle memory.

You should really check out TDM's link. It's a great guide. You should also check out Badmephisto's tutorials, guides, and tips and tricks on Youtube. They have guided me all the way to where I am today.


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## 10david14 (Jan 4, 2015)

*How to get sub 30 on 3x3?*

I am able to do the cross in 3-5 sec. F2L in 15-20 and oll and pll in 5-10 sec. I know 2 step oll and 1 step pll. What is the next major mile stone I need to get under 30 seconds. I would love your expert and/or intermediate opinions.


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## TDM (Jan 4, 2015)

1. Practise your cross. You don't want to ever be doing it in 5 seconds.
2. Learn better algs. Go to algdb.net and find better PLLs.
3. Practise F2L more. Learn to look ahead, and try to not pause at all during F2L.


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## dannah (Jan 11, 2015)

i am just about the same as you in times for each thing and would say just try to keep F2L below 15 seconds, OLL and PLL is fine at 5-10 seconds


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## jms (Jan 11, 2015)

TDM said:


> Practise your cross. You don't want to ever be doing it in 5 seconds.


I wish I could do the cross in 5 seconds. It can take me twice that or more...


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## TDM (Jan 11, 2015)

jms said:


> I wish I could do the cross in 5 seconds. It can take me twice that or more...


How fast are you? For someone wanting to get sub-30 5 seconds is too slow, but if you're not trying to get sub-30 then your cross speed could be fine.


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## jms (Jan 11, 2015)

TDM said:


> How fast are you? For someone wanting to get sub-30 5 seconds is too slow, but if you're not trying to get sub-30 then your cross speed could be fine.



I'm still trying to get sub-60. 

I'm averaging about 1m25s-ish.

Single PB is 1m7s.


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## TDM (Jan 11, 2015)

jms said:


> I'm still trying to get sub-60.
> 
> I'm averaging about 1m25s-ish.
> 
> Single PB is 1m7s.


Your cross should be about 8-10 seconds then; maybe up to 12 is ok.
(these numbers are just estimates btw, but it gets more important to get a good cross as you get faster)


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## goodatthis (Jan 11, 2015)

it starts with a P and ends with an E and has 8 letters, and the name of a cool state abbreviation in it

P..CT..E 

that is the key to sub everything


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## dott (Jan 12, 2015)

Cross shut be 1sec  Try to use your inspection time to look what you have to do for the cross. Later on you can also use it to find pairs for F2L.
F2L needs practice to get fast. You need to see the matching pairs without long searching and use the fastest solution.
Solving the last layer in 3 algs is ok, you could work on your finger-tricks there i guess.


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## thinkium (Mar 8, 2015)

*How do I get sub 30 seconds?*

I have trouble getting times under 30 seconds and also have trouble with memorizing PLL algorithms. Any recommendations?


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## PigsFTW (Mar 8, 2015)

Practice is what has helped me. When you're learning the PLL Algs, just do them over and over, until you're watching the cube and not the written alg.

Also, you should really work on F2L because your times will change based on how good you are at that.


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## PJKCuber (Mar 8, 2015)

Practice, Look ahead and PLL


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## josh42732 (Mar 8, 2015)

Also, you could, I mean, it's not necessary, but you could always look at YouTube turotials, look at the *cough cough* algorithm database for algorithms that are easier to learn than others, or you could just look at other threads and see how other people got faster.


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## Animorpher13 (Mar 8, 2015)

work on getting ~7-9 move crosses during inspection and practice looking ahead for another f2l pair as you insert the first one. As for memorizing PLL's, break them up into triggers (small/fast/easy sets of moves like sexy move or sledgehammer) and just memorize the triggers. It takes some muscle memory, but after a while you should get it!


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## Dong (Mar 8, 2015)

On my PLLs, I usually know where I am by the look of the last layer, so looking at the cube while learning the algs is a yes.

To be honest, F2L is your best shot to getting low times. F2L is around 2/3s of your entire solve time, so practice your lookahead.
To practice that, I would do two things that you might've heard before.
1) Use a metronome (one move per beat). Start at 60, go up to 180 gradually. 60 BPM might sound slow, but it is hard to maintain, and when I started practicing that way, I couldn't even do 60.
2) Find your pair, and insert it without looking at it. That way, when you actually solve, you can look at the rest of the cube to find the other pairs instead of staring at the one you're inserting, which is a common block for look-ahead.

Also, @Josh, Comic Sans MS is bad, and this place doesn't even have Calibri...


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## Spandy (Mar 17, 2015)

Hello guys, I am stuck at avering around 34 seconds with some solves( around 1 in 50) going around 28 seconds. 
My distribution of times is
Cross: 6.84
F2L : 18.62
OLL : 5.25
PLL : 6.02

My individual PLL times are
Corners_Three_Cycle_Clockwise_(A1):_____avg: 3.98, std: 0.00, num: 1
Corners_Three_Cycle_Anti-Clockwise_(A2):avg: 4.05, std: 0.53, num: 7
Parallel_Corners_Swap_(E):______________avg: 6.79, std: 0.00, num: 1
Adjacent_Edges_Swap_(Z):________________avg: 10.53, std: 0.00, num: 1
Opposite_Edges_Swap_(H):________________avg: 4.45, std: 0.00, num: 1
Edges_Three_Cycle_Anti-Clockwise_(U1):__avg: 2.80, std: 0.20, num: 3
Edges_Three_Cycle_Clockwise_(U2):_______avg: 4.11, std: 0.98, num: 2
Push_Push_(J1):_________________________avg: 4.39, std: 1.35, num: 4
Push_Push_Upside_Down_(J2):_____________avg: 2.87, std: 0.35, num: 7
T_perm_(T):_____________________________avg: 2.86, std: 0.00, num: 1
Lucky_7_(R1):__________________________avg: 4.27, std: 0.26, num: 4
Lucky_7_Upside-Down_(R2):______________avg: 4.83, std: 1.20, num: 5
Parallell_Lines_(F):___________________avg: 4.34, std: 0.09, num: 2
Edges+Corners_Three_Cycle_(G1):________avg: 5.81, std: 0.91, num: 3
Edges+Corners_Three_Cycle_(G2):________avg: 5.76, std: 0.92, num: 4
Edges+Corners_Three_Cycle_(G3):________avg: 5.39, std: 0.97, num: 3
Edges+Corners_Three_Cycle_(G4):________avg: 4.15, std: 0.57, num: 8
V_Perm_(V):____________________________avg: 5.98, std: 0.97, num: 4
N_Perm_(N1):___________________________avg: 6.13, std: 0.70, num: 3
N_Perm_(N2):___________________________avg: 0.00, std: 0.00, num: 0
Y_Perm_(Y):____________________________avg: 4.12, std: 0.70, num: 3
Total Average: 4.88 (Thanks Badmephisto)

So do you have any suggestions? I am currently working on look ahead and 2 side PLL recognition. Thanks.

P.S. I also know some cases of winter variation and do 2 look OLL with knowing some individual cases. I can insert F2L pairs from almost all angles but I have difficulty in pairing them and usually have to do a cube rotation.


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## Ranzha (Mar 17, 2015)

I don't understand how a 9-move A-perm takes you 4 seconds to execute. Do you use finger tricks?

Focus on algorithm fluidity and a consistent turning speed during your PLLs. Focus on how each move flows to the next. Drill and drill and drill.

Post a video of you solving the cube using 5 random computer generated scrambles, preferably from over your shoulder. That will give all of us a better idea of your strengths and weaknesses.


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## PJKCuber (Mar 17, 2015)

Drill algs.


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## MM99 (Mar 17, 2015)

Your f2l can easily be improved don't go too crazy into the algs so soon work on your fundamentals like cross and f2l and you'll easily be sub 30


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## Ordway Persyn (Mar 20, 2015)

wow you can do an N2 perm in 0.00 seconds!
Jk but anyway your algs are slow just preform your algs and get them sub 4-5. also do a lot of solves.


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## biscuit (Mar 20, 2015)

What I did is have a 36 hour car ride with nothing else to do...  it dropped my time a lot


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## michaelcmelton (Mar 31, 2015)

*Breaking the Sub-30 barrier*

I am a 30 to 40 second solver, doing intuitive F2L, 2-look OLL and Full PLL. I've been struggling to break this barrier, and I don't know why. Any cubers with more experience than myself that would give me advice, would be appreciated. I realize that this could be simply solved with practice but I've been stuck here at almost 1 1/2 months now, and I want to be sub 30 for US Nationals. I occassionally will have between 25- 30 second singles, but my averages always land in the mid to upper 30 second range.

Thanks so much.


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## Randomno (Mar 31, 2015)

Work on doing F2L pairs blindfolded.


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## Ollie (Mar 31, 2015)

this is a thread


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## PenguinsDontFly (Mar 31, 2015)

Turn very slowly. Use a metronome and get 3 TPS (180 BPM on metronome) into your head. Whenever I get stuck, I drop my turning speed. This makes me temporarily slower, but trains look-ahead and makes you much faster. I was stuck at mid 11 ish and practised slow turning for 2 weeks, getting 12 ish averages, and just today, I started turning normally and broke sub 11. So overall (tl;dr), practise slow turning and lookahead to decrease pauses.


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## ~Adam~ (Mar 31, 2015)

*Breaking the Sub-30 barrier*

By turning relatively slowly and without pausing you can fairly easily get sub 12 sec F2L. Closing your eyes and solving pairs helps greatly to give you the confidence to not look at what you are currently solving so you can look ahead.

Drill your PLL and maybe start learning some more OLLs. Lots of them are short and/variations on algs you may already know.


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## pkvk9122 (Mar 31, 2015)

There are a number of good threads out there for helping sub 20, let alone 30. First steps are as you mentioned yourself practise practise practise. After that you should start learning full OLL and getting you're F2L up to scratch. It would help if you gave us a breakdown of your solves (e.g. cross 2 seconds, f2l 8 seconds, oll 3 seconds, pll 3 seconds), or even better record and give us a video of a couple of your solves. Other than that all we can do is give you basic advice.


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## PJKCuber (Mar 31, 2015)

All of the above


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## AlphaSheep (Mar 31, 2015)

I was stuck at just over 30 for a couple of months. I got frustrated, so I practised other stuff like big cubes and one handed for a month or so. When I came back to 3x3, my times dropped quickly. I think it's because the things I was doing force you to turn slowly, so I was inadvertently taking the advice everyone usually gives.


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## DeeDubb (Mar 31, 2015)

I think there should be a rule about asking for advice. If you have such a vague question, you should post a video of you solving. That's the only way that there's any chance to actually get some constructive feedback. You might be doing some simple thing wrong that could totally change your times, but there's no way for us to help if you just say "I want to be sub-xx". The advice is always the same "work on f2l" "practice" "do you know blah blah LL algorithms? learn them".

However, if we see a video of your solves we can possibly pinpoint exactly where you need help.


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## michaelcmelton (Mar 31, 2015)

I'll have an average of five video up later today.


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## michaelcmelton (Mar 31, 2015)

Here's my Ao5 from just a few minutes ago.


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## jms (Mar 31, 2015)

Your hands are off the screen half of the time.


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## michaelcmelton (Mar 31, 2015)

I put a new Ao5 in its place.


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## theROUXbiksCube (Mar 31, 2015)

Stop using WCA inspection and only like 4 seconds of that, fully plan out all moves of your cross and maybe track a pair if you can plan your whole cross.


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## obelisk477 (Mar 31, 2015)

Learn to double flick


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## JeffDelucia (Mar 31, 2015)

Your cross is really slow, practice coming up with more efficient solutions, even if you use a minute of inspection. Watch videos on advanced cross building, and probably some example solves. To me that was the most obvious area you could improve. Your turn speed is definitely a limiting factor also, you've just got to practice for that.


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## molarmanful (Mar 31, 2015)

Hmm... This one's sorta strange for me. I never really had this problem; I had a 35 sec average one day, then 25 the next day.

TURNING
Very important. You don't seem to turn very fast. During F2L, this is fine, but your turning isn't exactly on point -- especially during your LL. Find more comfortable finger tricks if you have to, and replace any uncomfortable algs with alternatives that you find on the Internet. If you can't turn faster (no matter how much you try), then I'd just go for efficiency (like Tony Snyder -- search him up). CFOP is not the most efficient method out there, so if you are going for efficiency, try other methods. Otherwise, try alternative algs and finger tricks. Oh yeah, and learn to double-flick with both hands.

CROSS
Okay, you really need to work on this part because you're around 8-10 seconds when you should be around 5 seconds. You don't need to go for optimal solutions, but you have to have an idea of what you're doing, even if it's very faint. This means using your inspection wisely to find all 4 cross pieces. In addition, because this step is intuitive, you can make it as comfortable as you want. Try to make the cross solution simple, even if it's not efficient. Efficiency comes naturally.

F2L
I think you have a problem with intuition -- that is, you probably force yourself to think too much during cross and F2L. In the cross, you can't really eliminate intuition entirely, but during F2L, it can be partly eliminated: by learning algorithmic F2L. Most cubers will hate me for recommending this, but I can see that you turn faster whenever you perform algorithms. Try learning algorithmic F2L -- it might just help you.
Lookahead is not required to get you around 25 seconds, so you don't need to use it too much -- at least for now. Pausing is okay (as long as it's not too long), but you have to make up for it with faster turning speed.

OLL and PLL
All TPS and recognition. I notice that you have trouble with PLL recognition. If you don't already, look for obvious blocks, opposite colors, headlights, etc. I have a recognition guide and algorithms here: http://www.molarmanful.com/pll
You really don't need to know full PLL or even 2-Look OLL to get to 25 seconds. I have a friend who is around 23 seconds, and he knows 4 out of 7 2-look OLLs and barely any PLL's. However, he turns amazingly fast and is pretty good at F2L, so that's probably why he is at 23 seconds. I have another friend who is very much like you: he's stuck at around 35 seconds, he knows Cross, intuitive F2L, 2-look OLL, and full PLL; but his turning isn't exactly fast, and his finger tricks aren't too good either.
But just get fast with the algorithms that you know, or learn alternative algs as I said before.
---

Overall (at least in your case), try to turn faster. Efficiency is not needed unless you can't turn faster. You basically have all the tools you need to get under 25 or even under 20 seconds, but you have to improve those tools. Hope this helped. Good luck in your endeavours!


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## TDM (Mar 31, 2015)

molarmanful said:


> Efficiency is not needed unless you can't turn faster.


I don't agree with this. In my opinion, it's easier to become more efficient and then improve TPS than it is to increase TPS, and then try to become more efficient while turning as fast as possible. It's going to be harder to think about efficiency if you're turning too fast. Imo, efficiency is one of the most important things to develop earlier on.


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## molarmanful (Mar 31, 2015)

TDM said:


> I don't agree with this. In my opinion, it's easier to become more efficient and then improve TPS than it is to increase TPS, and then try to become more efficient while turning as fast as possible. It's going to be harder to think about efficiency if you're turning too fast. Imo, efficiency is one of the most important things to develop earlier on.



Sure. I was trying to say that efficiency comes naturally, but hey -- I'm pretty bad with explanations...


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## GuRoux (Mar 31, 2015)

i don't think he turns that slow. i probably turned that slow when i was averaging 25 with cfop (4lll). after switching to roux and and increasing my tps, i still am not sub 20 cfop (4lll). increasing my tps didn't create that much of a difference in my cfop speed. but lookahead and quick recognition does a lot, especially at 35 seconds.


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## jms (Mar 31, 2015)

GuRoux said:


> i don't think he turns that slow. i probably turned that slow when i was averaging 25 with cfop (4lll). after switching to roux and and increasing my tps, i still am not sub 20 cfop (4lll). increasing my tps didn't create that much of a difference in my cfop speed. but lookahead and quick recognition does a lot, especially at 35 seconds.



I agree with this. I am averaging 35-40 (my sig was a lucky day I think) and where I fail is lookahead and recognition. I know all 41 F2L cases, but it can take me a couple of seconds to a) find a pair and b) work out which f2l case it is. If I could get better at this I'd be averaging under 30 seconds all the time.


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## DeeDubb (Apr 1, 2015)

The cross is a huge thing. You should not worry about 15 second inspection right now, just inspect as long as it takes to at least figure out the solution for 3 pieces of your cross.

Also (see how much more specific the advice got when you posted a vid  )


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## theROUXbiksCube (Apr 1, 2015)

DeeDubb said:


> The cross is a huge thing. You should not worry about 15 second inspection right now, just inspect as long as it takes to at least figure out the solution for 3 pieces of your cross.
> 
> Also (see how much more specific the advice got when you posted a vid  )



Yeah videos really help


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## michaelcmelton (Apr 1, 2015)

Yeah, thanks guys. And thanks to you DeeDubb.


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## babucubes (Apr 7, 2015)

*How to break Sub 30 when averaging 35 seconds?*

Hello, I average 35 seconds with a fangshi shuangren v1 mini. It is my main and is fast. I know 2 look oll and 15/21 pll's (no g perm or diagonal pll) 
I do cross in 6-8 seconds with cross on top and i am not colour neutral, only white. 
I do f2l in 15-23 seconds and ll's in 8-10.
I also do fingertricks and i have been cubing for 8 months.


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## unsolved (Apr 7, 2015)

I would say work to improve your speed by 6 seconds or more. That will definitely get you to sub 30.


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## Cube Is Life (Apr 7, 2015)

I would say get your cross down to sub-4 and do it on bottom, finish learning pll, learn lookahead, and drill your last layer algs.


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## DeeDubb (Apr 7, 2015)

Post a video so we can actually help you.

Everyone is different, everyone has different hurdles to jump. There's no way to know exactly how to help you without seeing a video of you solving.


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## obelisk477 (Apr 7, 2015)

DeeDubb said:


> Post a video so we can actually help you.
> 
> Everyone is different, everyone has different hurdles to jump. There's no way to know exactly how to help you without seeing a video of you solving.



Idk, there's already obvious flaws from the splits and description. I think this is a case where a video would be helpful, but certainly not necessary.

To OP, your cross is your first big problem. You need to start solving it on bottom (or on left, if you like - on right if you're a lefty). Take way more inspection time than 15 seconds and try to come up with a cross solution that is no longer than 9 moves. This and this video should help. Doing this will not only cut down your cross time, but your F2L time as well since you'll save the rotation and already be able to be looking for your first pair.

And honestly, if you practice that enough, that alone will get you to sub-30. Also, finish your G perms, and N perms (not sure if thats what you meant, there are 4 G perms which means you're only referencing two).

An easy to learn G(b or c) perm: R2 F2 R2 [R(a or b) perm] R2 F2 R2
An easy to learn N(a): R U R' U (Jb perm) U' R U' R'

Those can get you started


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## cubecraze1 (Apr 7, 2015)

unsolved said:


> I would say work to improve your speed by 6 seconds or more. That will definitely get you to sub 30.



Is that supposed to be a joke?


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## King Mike (Apr 7, 2015)

Learn cross on bottom, its sooo much better.
Perfect your F2L, learn some f2l algs to help you.
Then finish your PLLs, I'm still working on learning v perm, every time I run into it I feel like dying, lol

Good luck man!


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## darckhitet (Apr 16, 2015)

Work fingertricks and speed along with recognition of algs, that will greatly reduce your LL time (reduce it by 5 secs)
Try to do cross in less than 6 moves


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## babucubes (May 12, 2015)

*How to break 30 second barrier*

Hello, i average usually 30-34 seconds and if im lucky sub 30 on an average of 5. But on average of 12 and larger, i break sub 30. I currently use a hualong and i lubed and restickered it. The cube gets me good times and i usually do cross in 4-6 seconds, f2l in 1/3-1/2 of my time or even more. Oll in 4-6 seconds, and pll in about 6-8
i know 15 out of the 21 plls and do 2 look oll. and intuitive f2l


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## DeeDubb (May 12, 2015)

If you post a video of your solving, we can give you really good advice. Otherwise it will be generic things like "Learn the rest of PLL" and "Work on your cross" .


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## Animorpher13 (May 12, 2015)

Your f2l is the most important, so keep working on that.
Quick Question: Are you color neutral?
Some f2l Tips:
- Go SLOWLY though f2l
- As you insert your are inserting each f2l pair, look for your next pair (the corner and the edge that make a pair)
- Don't do cube rotations unless absolutely necessary


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## Ulticrafter57 (May 13, 2015)

Really focus on your f2l and last layer. Learn full PLL, it's highly recommended but not necessary. Your cross is pretty okay at your level.


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## pyr14 (May 15, 2015)

Just keep doing tonnes of solves. Learn full PLL. get used to full PLL and you'll break sub 30 in a month or so.


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## Mr Cubism (May 15, 2015)

If you split it in these goals: 
cross 5sec
F2L 12sec
Last L 12sec = 29sec.


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## starcuber (Aug 5, 2015)

u might have already become sub 20 but best advice learn good algs for oll pll f2l (if nedded ) reduce last layer time and practice


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## RubiksToby (Nov 28, 2015)

*How to get an average of sub 30?*

Hi there,
About 5 weeks ago I got into cubing and my average after 4 weeks was down to 33 secs. I haven't really improve at all and I think I won't until I get some really good tips on how to improve my F2L as that is what is slowing me down. My average F2L time at the moment is around 22 sec and LL 11 sec.
Hopefully someone can either give me great tips or direct me to where I can find out how to improve it.
Thanks,
Toby.

PS: PB is 21 sec.


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## YouCubing (Nov 28, 2015)

It's hard to see where your what your weak points are if I don't have video of your solves. And when I averaged ~33 seconds, I didn't use CFOP, so I don't even know what me weak spots were when I was at your level. So if I have some video, maybe I can help you.


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## RubiksToby (Nov 28, 2015)

Ok thanks I'll film one soon. Thanks.


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## Weird Cuber (Feb 14, 2016)

It took me about a month to get sub 30. I just kept practicing (3ll), now I am about 25 avg.


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## Pragitya (Feb 15, 2016)

*How to get Sub 45 ?*

Hey guys so i wanted to know how i would be able to get sub-45 sec in speedcubing. I have a Dayan 5 Zhanchi , non-lubricated and unbroken.I use Fiedrich's Method for solving. I know may guys will tell to do Lubrication first.. But before lubrication and tensioning i want to know if i should pratice on feidrich's method only or choose other method's like ZZ and Roux. ?
PB on 3x3 :- 42.96 sec 
Ao5 :- 52.32 sec
Ao10 :- 53.87 sec
I have Done 11 solves , all under a min.. I am not fast in doing so don't tell me that "i am not fast" . 

And in advance , Thanks for Helping


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## collppllzbf2lll (Feb 15, 2016)

Pragitya said:


> I have Done 11 solves



here's your problem. do at least 1000 solves before saying 45 seconds is a barrier


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## Pragitya (Feb 15, 2016)

collppllzbf2lll said:


> here's your problem. do at least 1000 solves before saying 45 seconds is a barrier



The 11 solves i am saying are the recorded one only actually i have done more than a thousand solves !


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## ypermcuber (Aug 23, 2017)

I am trying to get to sub 30 and I've found that the sticky point for me is my cross and f2l. I average 6 seconds on cross and 18 seconds on f2l. Do you have any advice? I use full PLL and 2 look OLL.


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