# Clean WCA by deleting all blindfold results & records!



## guusrs (Feb 22, 2008)

Hi cubers,

The BLD-cheaters-threat has been closed, which is a good thing. What was clear to me that cheating in blindfolding is very easy. Last weekend at the Benelux Open I tested some blindfolds for the first time in my life and I could peek under every of them, even when others (Arnaud, Kai, Joel) were convinced I couldn't peek anymore. Suddenly I could solve cubes blindfolded although I never practiced. It must be the shape of my nose......

My point is that, when cheating is so easy there's no blindfold-cuber for which we are 100% sure they didn't peek under their blindfold. Now I'm also convinced many cubers cheated in the past. I would have done it myself! Another example: when I have to believe my 14-year old daughter, almost every schoolmate of her cheats sometimes during tests because teachers did not check well enough? Which to blame? The teacher or the teenagers? Cheating when given the opportunity should not be considered as a crime but as human behaviour so as a general rule!

Same story holds for cubing. The WCA invented not-cheat-proof blindfold rules. It was just a game, wasn't it? We based fairness on trust. But we were getting more and more serious over the time, now you can become a hero, a worldchampion, win money, gain respect of others, being selected as the "cuber of the year", getting friends. You're whole life is based on just all that. Currently the whole cubing community is focusing on finding proof of cheating of only one person. We're talking about banning him from our beloved community. This is very unfair and it can seriously damage this teenager's life, probably always afraid of showing himself to his friends again or even in public at all, just for doing something that is very common to almost everyone, especially for young people, and is based in human nature: making advantage of poorly invented rules to get attention, gain respect and get social contacts. Yes, it's called cheating, common to most of us and, I repeat, not a crime. 

The only way to create a clean community and not ruin anyone's life now and in the future, is to delete all blindfolds results of all WCA competitions in the past and start all over again with new blindfold rules, without cheating possibilities. So new records, new rankings new personal bests, etc. By this we also accept cheating under the "old-rules" as a normal human behaviour which people couldn't resist while the game was getting too serious. With that we will also gain back the return, a nice teenager, a great cuber, which inspired many of us. 
We will also prevent forum- discussions about cheating the way we had last couple of weeks. I think that's worth a lot ..

Gus


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## Stefan (Feb 22, 2008)

Foreword: Joel's new evidence is proof for me, eliminating my doubts.



guusrs said:


> We're talking about banning him from our beloved community. This is very unfair


He kept lying to us even after the WCA gave him an honest opportunity to confess, and even after he had seen the first reconstructions. And then the investigation also took a lot of time and energy from a lot of people, and put us in a quite awkward position. It's quite obvious that he doesn't respect the community, so it's *not* unfair if the community doesn't respect him anymore.

And this is not a school test, where you cheat so you don't fail. This is at the highest level of worldwide cubing, there's a lot of respect and also money involved. Matyas stole what other people deserved.

I *can* accept lying to prevent bad things, at least in some cases. I can *not* accept lying just to egoistically gain good stuff. The latter, especially of a magnitude like we have here, definitely is a crime in my opinion.



guusrs said:


> it can seriously damage this teenager's life


I don't care. The community is more important than him.



guusrs said:


> The only way to create a clean community and not ruin anyone's in the now and in the future, is to delete all blindfolds results of all WCA competitions in the past and start all over again with new blindfold rules, without cheating possibilities.


Here I'm in a dilemma. I do agree that this would be good for having "clean" records (though as Lucas showed already, there are many ways to cheat, and eliminating cheating with 100% certainty would require a lot of impractical overhead work). On the other hand, I don't want all the honest cubers punished.


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## AvGalen (Feb 22, 2008)

The WCA has a lot of rules against cheating. All of them rely on direct interference by judges which doesn't happen very often. Many people stop the timer incorrectly (either on purpose or by accident) and get away with it. According to the WCA-rules that means your solve has been "accepted" as a correct solve. I don't think that there is anything in the regulations that allows the WCA to change results after a competition is over (except for mutually agreed corrections/typo's)

I am very much opposed to starting over with results. As I stated above cheating isn't restricted to blindfolded cubing so why clean just those results? Michael Fung retired from cubing, but his results are still among the worlds best. By starting over his achievements would be lost and people would think Erik/Mátyás was the first person to break 60 on 4x4x4 average. Another consequence would be that you couldn't find trends in the results/improvements anymore. (How many people were sub 15 in 2003 / 2004 / 2005 / 2006 / 2007 / 2008)

Maybe the WCA could have a list of cheaters and the results can be filtered according to that list. It would still be problematic because cheating in one event should/shouldn't (note my doubt) mean the results of other events get filtered too.

I agree with Stefan on the fact that the community is really important, but I also agree with Guus that banning can have a serious impact on a live. These decision should be taken very responsively by the WCA.


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## tim (Feb 22, 2008)

guusrs said:


> My point is that, when cheating is so easy there's no blindfold-cuber for which we are 100% sure they didn't peek under their blindfold. Now I'm also convinced many cubers cheated in the past. I would have done it myself! Another example: when I have to believe my 14-year old daughter, almost every schoolmate of her cheats sometimes during tests because teachers did not check well enough? Which to blame? The teacher or the teenagers? Cheating when given the opportunity should not be considered as a crime but as human behaviour so as a general rule!



That's ridiculous.
"Dad, a black man stole my bike." - "What? Damn niggers!"

P.S.: I don't care about my official bld records, they are bad and i can easily break them, but it's a shame, that you suspect all bld cubers of cheating...


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## Erik (Feb 22, 2008)

Cleaning all BLD results seems like a good idea to me, although I'm sure other people who focus on BLD a lot probably would disagree (which I totally understand, it's just that I don't care a lot about my own BLD results so far).

To Arnaud, stopping a timer incorrect doesn't really affect your times in a positive way. The only event that could be on is magic and the WR's for that are clean. I think we all agree that cheating a whole attempt (like on BLD) is far and far worse than cheating with stopping a timer wrong, which is mostly caused by not knowing the rules very well. Therefore, it would be ridicilous to delete ALL WCA results ever, people like Minh Thai to name someone would not be amused. 

I think that Guus is right that it's very tempting to (especially but not only) younger people to cheat if they found a way to do it. And for those who all think now: 'pff I would not do it' I can say that most of you don't know yourself very well..

It's a bridge too far though to blame the WCA for the fact someone cheats because they make it easy, in the end it's still the person itself who decides. In the case that someone cheated I think it's logical he/she would do it on every tournament including the WC and win money. It's a bit harsh to call him/her a criminal and a thief for that in my opinion especially if the person would be underage.


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## Johannes91 (Feb 22, 2008)

guusrs said:


> Cheating when given the opportunity should not be considered as a crime but as human behaviour so as a general rule!


That means I'm not human ...


Erik said:


> And for those who all think now: 'pff I would not do it' I can say that most of you don't know yourself very well..


... and apparently I don't know myself very well. Interesting.

Or maybe you guys are just generalizing too much? Not everyone is like that. I want to believe that there are still some honest people in this world.


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## Erik (Feb 22, 2008)

Johannes91 said:


> guusrs said:
> 
> 
> > Cheating when given the opportunity should not be considered as a crime but as human behaviour so as a general rule!
> ...



doh I said 'most' I know there are some honest people too


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## alexc (Feb 22, 2008)

To erase all the BLD records might not be a bad idea. However, I think the WCA has to update the official rules and say that regular blindfolds are illegal, because if they don't, the alleged cheating could happen all over again. I think they need to make it a rule to where goggle type things as blindfolds. It is virtually impossible to cheat with them. They are the cheap to make. Just buy some goggles and spray them inside with black paint, put on electrical tape, etc. And they are the closest to what we have now, so it wouldn't be all that hard to transition to using them, I think. As for Matyas or anyone being cheaters, I don't know if there is enough evidence to prove anything. If Matyas or anyone else seriously has cheated, then shame on them. Especially Matyas. A lot of people looked up to him, and for him to be a fraud is not cool.  If the WCA would decide to start over, but not change the blindfolds, then the judges just have to be way more strict with hand checks, etc.


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## Joël (Feb 22, 2008)

Hi Guus!

Let me fist say I really respect the way you look at this. You understand that he’s a young kid, and that he made a mistake. I too agree that everybody deserves a second chance, especially Matyas. 

I respect that you are talking about the human aspects of cheating, and the human aspect in this particular case. This is why I wanted to become a lawyer once. Every criminal is also a human being, and every crime has it’s own story. 

I also agree that wiping out the complete list of records would be a good idea. I would not mind it at all. We can save the ‘old records’, so that people can still refer to their records by saying it’s their National, Continental or World record “*under the old blindfold rules*” (as long as it’s not broken, I guess). The records, as they are now, are not totally useless, in my eyes.

I disagree with other things in your post. The comparison with a school test does not hold water. Sure, kids cheat at school tests (the best way to get higher up in life is to take an example from people who are better than you), but with that, they do not fool so many people at the same time. They don’t set world records in such tests. They don’t get on stage to shake Mr. Rubiks hand afterwards. They don’t receive 2000 euro’s of prize money. They don’t push Tyson Mao off the podium at a World Championship. They don’t take 15 cubes and pose in front of the camara’s with a smile. 

I am convinced that in serious sports, when honour and money is involved, many people will tend to be a lot more honest (including all the kids who cheat at school tests). In those situations, you reach whole new level of cheating. People have a sense of pride. And people have a sense of justice. 

I think that what Matyas has done for such a long time is disgusting. Will this damage his life? I don’t really know. But come on! If you mess with 100’s of people for such a long period of time, it is bound to come out someday. He should have seen it coming.

I agree that he should have a second chance. But right now, I personally don’t feel like meeting him the next competition, or the one after that. So a temporary ban is ok with me.

- Joël.


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## MiloD (Feb 22, 2008)

I like the old records/new records idea. 

I hope he doesn't decide to give up cubing all together. He must have been crapping in his pants the last couple of weeks. I think a temporary ban, removal of all his records is sufficient punishment in addition to worldwide shame in the cubing community. Hopefully we'll get to watch him epically get all of his records back.

and tim can you edit post#4...you're making us Americans very squeamish


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## AvGalen (Feb 22, 2008)

First: I have still not heard anything official from the WCA.

Second: It seems like everyone wants to take away ALL his records, but shouldn't that be just that blindfolded records?


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## Pedro (Feb 22, 2008)

guusrs said:


> Now I'm also convinced many cubers cheated in the past. I would have done it myself!


Why are you convinced of that? Just because you would have done it, doesn't mean other people did



> Cheating when given the opportunity should not be considered as a crime but as human behaviour so as a general rule!


No way. Cheating when given the opportunity is not a general rule...is a fail of character...



guusrs said:


> We're talking about banning him from our beloved community. This is very unfair and it can seriously damage this teenager's life...



is it fair that he cheats?
that he gets media attention, praise from a lot of people, lots of medals, certificates, titles, money and so?
is it fair that he makes some people give up on bld or cubing at all, because they think they'll never reach his times?

no, I don't think that is fair...



AvGalen said:


> Second: It seems like everyone wants to take away ALL his records, but shouldn't that be just that blindfolded records?



nope, just his bld records...


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## MiloD (Feb 22, 2008)

AvGalen said:


> Second: It seems like everyone wants to take away ALL his records, but shouldn't that be just that blindfolded records?



It makes the comeback that much more epic...


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## Stefan (Feb 22, 2008)

MiloD said:


> and tim can you edit post#4...you're making us Americans very squeamish


Is this better?


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## MiloD (Feb 22, 2008)

I guess?

I obviously understand what hes saying...however, there is a certain word in that post (which word could I be talking about??) which could be easily changed to be less offensive while still achieving the desired effect.
;
oh wow this is totally Stefan.    My hero!


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## Mike Hughey (Feb 22, 2008)

Hey, I like my "records" - don't touch them!

Seriously, I'm happy I got some blindfold solves in competition, and BLD is the only thing I'm half-good at, and yet I know there's a chance I might never solve another one in competition - it's awfully easy to DNF, especially in competition. I can't get to that many competitions, and I'd hate to lose my times and not be able to put them back. So I hope that we will keep the old records somewhere, so I can at least show people I really solved 3x3x3, 4x4x4, and 5x5x5 BLD in competition once (even if some people think those solves are suspect under the old rules).

Also, what does this do for immediately coming up competitions? I'm going to Chattahoochee - if we haven't sorted this out by then, does it effectively mean the BLD part of the competition doesn't count? I'm practicing hard for it - I'm hoping to halve my times on the 4x4x4 and 5x5x5 (probably overambitious, but at least I can hope), and I'd hate to think I'm working towards something that's just going to be deleted anyway.

If we do decide to delete the records, please decide on new rules as quickly as possible - I want Chattahoochie to count!


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## tim (Feb 22, 2008)

MiloD said:


> I obviously understand what hes saying...however, there is a certain word in that post (which word could I be talking about??) which could be easily changed to be less offensive while still achieving the desired effect.



Did you mean "niggers"? I don't see any problems with this word.
1.) it's a metaphor/comparison
2.) it's a dialog between two people who don't exist (just in my mind ).


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## Karthik (Feb 22, 2008)

I definitely don't want the records to be deleted.We have had only one competition here in India and I worked hard during the Summer to save money for the flight tickets to attend the competition.Not to forget all the hours of practise I put in especially for BLD.
Cubers in Europe and US may not mind getting their records deleted because they will anyway get to go to another competition very soon.But please think of cubers in places like India, Philippines, Brasil,etc..where number of competitions are very less.


Mike Hughey said:


> Also, what does this do for immediately coming up competitions?


Since this whole issue had started before Indian Open, John Louis made sure that a paper was always kept between the cuber and the cube during BLD execution.I think that is a good temporary solution till WCA gives it's verdict.


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## Pedro (Feb 22, 2008)

karthikputhraya said:


> Since this whole issue had started before Indian Open, John Louis made sure that a paper was always kept between the cuber and the cube during BLD execution.I think that is a good temporary solution till WCA gives it's verdict.



yep, that's the temporary solution, until we find better blindfolds

oh, and agree with you

what about people who got a successful bld solve and will not go to a competition soon? or never more?


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## Johannes91 (Feb 22, 2008)

Joël said:


> I also agree that wiping out the complete list of records would be a good idea. I would not mind it at all. We can save the ‘old records’, so that people can still refer to their records by saying it’s their National, Continental or World record “*under the old blindfold rules*” (as long as it’s not broken, I guess). The records, as they are now, are not totally useless, in my eyes.


I don't like this idea at all, even though I'm not that good at (or interested in) at BLD solving. It has already been pointed out that preventing cheating completely is practically impossible. If later someone manages to cheat under new regulations, should all records be deleted again?

And what about other events, like 3x3x3 speedsolving? What if someone gets to see the scramble before his own attempt (like taking a video/picture of someone else's solve) and then memorizes a short solution and gets a very good time? Should all cubers' 3x3x3 results be deleted, because it turns out that cheating was possible and you can't trust anyone?


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## shelley (Feb 22, 2008)

In the sports world they don't erase everyone's records just because one athlete used steroids.


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## Pedro (Feb 22, 2008)

Johannes91 said:


> Joël said:
> 
> 
> > I also agree that wiping out the complete list of records would be a good idea. I would not mind it at all. We can save the ‘old records’, so that people can still refer to their records by saying it’s their National, Continental or World record “*under the old blindfold rules*” (as long as it’s not broken, I guess). The records, as they are now, are not totally useless, in my eyes.
> ...



agreed completely


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## Mike Hughey (Feb 22, 2008)

shelley said:


> In the sports world they don't erase everyone's records just because one athlete used steroids.



The best argument of all. Please don't erase everyone's records for this.


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## Joël (Feb 22, 2008)

shelley said:


> In the sports world they don't erase everyone's records just because one athlete used steroids.



Hmm.. Yes, when I think about it, maybe you're right... Deleting all the records is a bit extreme.


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## MiloD (Feb 22, 2008)

I now agree too, I wasn't considering people who can not make it to many competitions....and I don't even have a BLD time in competition...


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## alexc (Feb 22, 2008)

Wait, have I missed something here!!!???? You guys are all talking like you KNOW Matyas cheated, did he confess or something???!!!! I didn't hear about anything!!!?????


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## Pedro (Feb 22, 2008)

did you follow the thread, Alex?


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## Mike Hughey (Feb 22, 2008)

alexc said:


> Wait, have I missed something here!!!???? You guys are all talking like you KNOW Matyas cheated, did he confess or something???!!!! I didn't hear about anything!!!?????



http://www.speedsolving.com/showpost.php?p=35102&postcount=515


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## alexc (Feb 22, 2008)

Oh, I didn't see that. Wow.... nice job Joel. So, does the WCA know about this? Have they said anything about what they're going to do??


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## shelley (Feb 22, 2008)

Be patient; the WCA's report should be up by next week or so, when Ron gets back home (he's been in California).


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## guusrs (Feb 22, 2008)

OK, for some people I understand deleting all bld results from the past is a step too far, especially for those who do not compete very much or anymore. But maybe we could preserve those past results and not mix them with the new-style results. Would this be a reasonable alternative?



StefanPochmann said:


> He kept lying to us even after the WCA gave him an honest opportunity to confess, and even after he had seen the first reconstructions. And then the investigation also took a lot of time and energy from a lot of people, and put us in a quite awkward position. It's quite obvious that he doesn't respect the community, so it's *not* unfair if the community doesn't respect him anymore.
> 
> And this is not a school test, where you cheat so you don't fail. This is at the highest level of worldwide cubing, there's a lot of respect and also money involved. Matyas stole what other people deserved.



C'mon, Stefan, he's just a kid. Do really think he all realized what you just said? We're the adults that created the WCA rules, we should know better, at least make better bld rules. I agree we should make clear to him we are not happy with his cheating, a temporary ban is an option but let's not crucify him! 



StefanPochmann said:


> I don't care. The community is more important than him.


I do not agree! Being a community should not be more important than someone's life.



StefanPochmann said:


> Here I'm in a dilemma. I do agree that this would be good for having "clean" records (though as Lucas showed already, there are many ways to cheat, and eliminating cheating with 100% certainty would require a lot of impractical overhead work). On the other hand, I don't want all the honest cubers punished.



We won't punish any cuber if all past results are put aside, just don't mix them with new results under new rules. With that we will avoid discussion about others who possibly cheated.



Joël said:


> I respect that you are talking about the human aspects of cheating, and the human aspect in this particular case. This is why I wanted to become a lawyer once. Every criminal is also a human being, and every crime has it’s own story.


That's exactly my point Joel, keep in mind the human aspect and, of course, his age.



Joël said:


> They don’t set world records in such tests. They don’t get on stage to shake Mr. Rubiks hand afterwards. They don’t receive 2000 euro’s of prize money. They don’t push Tyson Mao off the podium at a World Championship. They don’t take 15 cubes and pose in front of the camara’s with a smile.


But there's a story behind it: he loves attention which he can only get to improve his own worldrecords. So once cheated there was no way back.... 



Joël said:


> I am convinced that in serious sports, when honour and money is involved, many people will tend to be a lot more honest.


I disagree, many athletes use enhancement drugs (and never get caught).



Joël said:


> I think that what Matyas has done for such a long time is disgusting. Will this damage his life? I don’t really know. But come on! If you mess with 100’s of people for such a long period of time, it is bound to come out someday. He should have seen it coming.


I partially agree, just keep in mind he was a very, very young boy when he started this.



Joël said:


> I agree that he should have a second chance. But right now, I personally don’t feel like meeting him the next competition, or the one after that. So a temporary ban is ok with me.


I would not avoid him when he will visit a competition soon. I hope he will admit he cheated and talk about it, when, how and why. But maybe we have to wait a couple of years, until he has grown older.

Yes, all we can do is waiting for whatever the WCA decides but this forum could help them seeing things from different sides.

Gus


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## Mike Hughey (Feb 22, 2008)

guusrs said:


> OK, for some people I understand deleting all bld results from the past is a step too far, especially for those who do not compete very much or anymore. But maybe we could preserve those past results and not mix them with the new-style results. Would this be a reasonable alternative?



I personally am okay with this. But then, I really hope to get successful BLD solves under the new rules as well, even if it might be a while before I get to a competition to do it (assuming Chattahoochee is too soon for the new rules). As long as I can point someone at a list that shows my old times, I'll be very happy. But I'm not sure - others who are higher ranked than me might not feel the same. I'm mainly happy to be part of the group at all - I don't care so much how high I am - but others who are very good and at the top of the list might feel differently. Is this fair to Danyang Chen, for instance? (He's only made it to one competition so far - it might be hard for him to get to another one, depending on how regularly competitions occur in China in the future.)


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## Rama (Feb 22, 2008)

Well I can imagine that some people who had an succesfull bld streak wont like this idea, but I can imagine that some people lost their succesfull bld streak or just DNF alot because they wanted to get just as fast or even faster then Mátyás.


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## Pedro (Feb 22, 2008)

Rama said:


> Well I can imagine that some people who had an succesfull bld streak wont like this idea, but I can imagine that some people lost their succesfull bld streak or just DNF alot because they wanted to get just as fast or even faster then Mátyás.



exactly

and I can imagine some people stopped bld or cubing because they thought they would never reach his times


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## Dene (Feb 22, 2008)

Ah so much to say, but I can't be bothered. I will only say this. I don't think it is a good idea to separate the records, or remove any records at all. This is because, those records will always be branded as the "cheating records". They will quickly become obsolete and wiped forever, it is just a waste of time trying to do some fancy separating setup. I really do not see any point in doing anything. We all know the records can be beaten, and they will, so who cares?


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## pjk (Feb 22, 2008)

If Matyas indeed cheated, I think all of this BLD records should be erased. However, why are we only looking at Matyas? Because he recorded the fastest time in the world? What about others, in say the top 20? In my opinion, it doesn't matter whether you are first or 20th, your times should be be looked in to just as close as Matyas' were. How do we know that 95% of the BLD cubers didn't cheat, whether they DNF'ed or not? We don't. I don't really see why we are zooming in on Matyas but no one else, because it may be happening a lot more than we think.


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## pjk (Feb 22, 2008)

Dene said:


> Ah so much to say, but I can't be bothered. I will only say this. I don't think it is a good idea to separate the records, or remove any records at all. This is because, those records will always be branded as the "cheating records". They will quickly become obsolete and wiped forever, it is just a waste of time trying to do some fancy separating setup. I really do not see any point in doing anything. We all know the records can be beaten, and they will, so who cares?


But I don't see this as fair at all to non-cheaters. Chris Hardwick and Mike Hughey have both put up amazing big cube BLD times.... is it fair that they are placing into the "suspicious cheaters" category? All we can really do at this point is avoid it as best as possible from now on, and learn from our mistakes.


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## Dene (Feb 22, 2008)

pjk said:


> Dene said:
> 
> 
> > Ah so much to say, but I can't be bothered. I will only say this. I don't think it is a good idea to separate the records, or remove any records at all. This is because, those records will always be branded as the "cheating records". They will quickly become obsolete and wiped forever, it is just a waste of time trying to do some fancy separating setup. I really do not see any point in doing anything. We all know the records can be beaten, and they will, so who cares?
> ...



What do you mean? What I'm trying to say is that it should just be ignored completely. What I'm saying is that if they separate the records, then that is exactly what will happen, everyone will be branded with cheating, not just those that did...


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## Pedro (Feb 22, 2008)

yep...just keep the current records...

and, Patrick, we're looking into Matyas because he was accused and we found proof...

if someone finds proof about other cubers cheating, I'm sure WCA will investigate too


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## dbeyer (Feb 22, 2008)

Hello everybody. I feel that in the upcoming competitions, such as those in Georgia, US Open/Nat'ls and also the Chattahoochee HS Competition, there will be some very intense blindfolded competition. I know that Chris and I want to be viewed as legitimate. I have spoken with Chris on the speculations of the legitimacy of our attempts. 

Chris and I will be glad to cooperate in anyway shape or form. We will actually be willing to go to any lengths to make it through the solve so that our legitimacy will not be in question.

Paper blocking our line of sight to the cube perhaps?
The inconvience though of forcing a judge to intensely monitor you is a bit unfair. It can be quite demanding of a volunteer judge. 

"Hey, you there, yea, can you sit here for about an hour? I know it's lunch time, but we need judges do this for them."

For a person to sit there and daudle for an hour is bad enough for the average volunteer. Let alone them now having to intensely monitor and prevent cheating. 

Also ... once again. This forum, if I recall correctly, is to strengthen the blindfolded community. We exchange methods, ideas, tips. We share experiences. Post our best times, share our excitement and joy of solving a cube blindfolded. Questions are asked here (sometimes repetitively, but none the less).

This forum is not about cheaters. This forum is not about, lack of character, or human morals. This forum is not about the WCA, their databases, rules, and problems.

This forum is not meant for defending, offending, reprimanding, accusing, or speculating other people, for things that they have done in their past. This forum is not the place to express your concerns about decisions that the WCA has yet to make. 

Just because you slip the word BLINDFOLD into the subject does not make the body of the message appropriate for this forum. Let alone the tangents that the later posts, ideas, and replies go off on.

PJK, do you feel that this thread should be moved to another forum section?
Later,
DB


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## Mike Hughey (Feb 22, 2008)

Daniel, how about solving under the table? Is that a bad idea? At least that way we don't make some poor volunteer hold something to block our sight for an hour or more. It doesn't seem like a perfect solution, but might it be a reasonable partial solution? Or do the problems with it outweigh the benefits?

I like solving under a table - I do it often when doing "blindfold" solves at restaurants. I must admit, though, that it looks rather silly when I slam it on the table triumphantly with a big grin, and then realize I DNF'ed badly.


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## dbeyer (Feb 22, 2008)

LoL, that's great Mike. A problem (but then again, we'll be going to any lengths to remain legit), is that I would prefer to stand. I feel more alert standing. Focused, and not relaxed. Good for such a mentally stressful event.


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## Mike Hughey (Feb 23, 2008)

How about a tall table? 

Actually, that would be better anyway for spectators - they could more easily see under a taller table.

By the way, for 3x3x3, I very much prefer to stand. I'm ambivalent about 4x4x4 and 5x5x5; since I do most of my solves at home for them sitting, it might be better to sit, but I do tend to be more focused and perform better when standing, so it might be better that way.

I look forward to seeing you again at Chattahoochee.


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## dbeyer (Feb 23, 2008)

As it stands I should be there.


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## Derrick Eide17 (Feb 23, 2008)

guusrs said:


> OK, for some people I understand deleting all bld results from the past is a step too far, especially for those who do not compete very much or anymore. But maybe we could preserve those past results and not mix them with the new-style results. Would this be a reasonable alternative?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



OKAY... okay... i cant even BEGIN to explain how mad this makes me, but lets just start with one thing at a time.... FIRST OFF, C'mon he's just a kid?!?! WHAT THE HELL he is a friggin teenager!! and BULL **** he doesn even know what he is doing, it looks like he knew what he was going DAMN good enough to keep us fooled for SO MANY YEARS, and do so with a GRIN, and smart us all out by trying to make every solve he did look as legit as possible, he robbed others of THEIR HARD EARNED WORK and what THEY DESEREVED, and even after knowing all this still decided not to even admit he cheated?? sorry but thats not a kid to me, that is one of the most DISGUSTING, DISGRACEFUL, DEMEANING things i have EVER heard of and matyas know for SURE what he has been doing for ALL THESE YEARS! okay next thing about mixing all these old results with new results stuff im not that contraversial about that but REALLY like others said, why should everyone else be put at fault just because of ONE DISGRACEFUL PERSON? and yeah yeah yeah like you said others could cheat too... but we didnt even consider this until Matyas cheated himself!!! which AGAIN is matyas fault!! and why are others suffering from him?!!?!?! and seriously... he was a very young boy when he started this?? THIS GIVES HIM THE RIGHT TO CHEAT DOES IT??!?!? and i understand your not saying that, BUT your saying we shouldnt be so hard on him.. yet he NEVER STOPPED CHEATING! and really honestly i couldnt care LESS if he came to another competition soon cause face it, he is a horrible person for doing what he did. Im sorry but when i practice cubing for hours, upon hours, upon hours, upon hours, upon hours, upon hours, upon ENDLESS HOURS for MY credit and MY RESPECT in the cubing community, it really..... REALLY P***** me off when others gain what i have always wanted, by simply just CHEATING, and doing it along the way with a grin and acting like a total obnoxious P****. and OH... my.. GOD... seriously? there is a story behind matyas that gives him the right to ROB everyone at WC? and gain a WR in the most disgusting, despicable way imaginable?! its like your defending his cheating! and after cheating there was no way for him to go back? hmm lets see... oh yeah.. maybe he could have.. .STOPPED CHEATING?!?! or never even cheated in the first place! and he could only gain attention by doing this to gain his world records? OKAY you know what I have to do to gain MY attention or World record (which i have NONE by the way)? i have to work my A** off for Endless hours to SHEER EXHAUSTION, like an HONEST person would!!!! That is all i have to say for this topic, im sorry if this came off as rude towards you Gus because really im just pointing my rage at Matyas, and all im trying to say with this post is i strongly disagree with you, but YES like you said all we can do is wait for the WCA's confirmation on this. But now i just simply HATE Matyas for what he has done and i wouldnt even care if the worst possible punishment out of this situation is he would be banned forever and ALL his Records taken away. because face it he is a disgrace and i would even go as FAR as to agree with some ending words i have from Rowe hessler himself.

Rowe Hessler: CRUCIFY HIM!! CRUCIFY HIM!!

Thanks, that is all.


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## ThePizzaGuy92 (Feb 23, 2008)

I have a problem with the idea of cleaning the records. I plan on attending a tournament soon, and I've been training my ass off in the BLD event, what happens if I get a successful solve, but then the records get cleaned? now i'm screwed and I'll feel like I have to prove my worth once more. eh... this concern is meaningless and doesn't affect anyone.

also, why not just take the simple path, delete Matyas's records and leave the rest? someone else gets caught, delete theirs!


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## Dene (Feb 23, 2008)

Wow, way over the top. As of yet, I have only seen evidence of one solve in which it is most likely that he cheated. I hardly think it seems fair to take away all his records and ban him forever. Despite my own opinions, Immanuel Kant was the sort of man that advocated "an eye for an eye". I would hardly say your offer reflects that.

EDIT: this is aimed at Mr. Eide, of course.


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## dbeyer (Feb 23, 2008)

Wow this thread is closed ... Mind you Derrick, I'm being "neutral, and not stating my opinion but this thread is done too."

I suggest that no more threads like this are started.


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