# Cross on top vs bottom/side



## Stefan (Mar 7, 2009)

In case you haven't noticed, our new world record holder for 3x3x3 average, Erik, uses Fridrich and usually builds the cross on *top*. So I think it's time to revisit this, as probably very few fast cubers do this and I've even seen it be called stupid, which it apparently kinda isn't. Have a look at Erik's solves in the Benelux Open finals, the round after his world record:
http://www.speedsolving.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10194
The only time he didn't build the cross on top was also the only time he had a really bad solve (the third one).

Besides pointing that out, I'd also like to check my feeling that few use it, so if you're a sub30 Fridrich solver, please tell in the above poll where you usually build the cross. Choose what describes you best. Erik for example would be "cross on top" even though he doesn't do it 100% of the time and even though he only builds most of the cross on top and finishes it on the bottom with a double layer turn (as far as I can tell so far).


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## BigSams (Mar 7, 2009)

i remember talking to you about this on the wca forums!
you said something about having a greater sense of the f2l by doing the double-layer turn after the cross.
i tried it... but failed... miserably. thats probably because i only tried for one day before stopping.
to your knowledge, are there any sub-15 cubers who use this, other than erik?


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## Crossed (Mar 7, 2009)

My avgs is in the signature, but i usually build the cross on top, or the side.
Almost never on the bottom.


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## Stefan (Mar 7, 2009)

BigSams said:


> are there any sub-15 cubers who use this, other than erik?



Yes, Jean Pons, previous world record holder and world champion.


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## Zava (Mar 7, 2009)

I'm around 13, and I also build cross on top.


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## snowmous (Mar 7, 2009)

Shocked.
I will think about the question, and do some tests.


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## miniGOINGS (Mar 7, 2009)

well i usually build my cross on the top but i have HORRID times,, PB 21 and average 59


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## Stefan (Mar 7, 2009)

miniGOINGS said:


> well i usually build my cross on the top but i have HORRID times,, PB 21 and average 59


Yeah, for beginners it's not unusual to build it on top because they want to see what they're doing. Then when they get faster they're told to build it on the bottom. That's why I restricted the poll to fast cubers, otherwise the slow cubers would pollute the statistic.

Question for those of you fast cubers building cross on top: Do you all do it like I think Erik and Jean do it, i.e., solving three cross edges on top and finishing the cross putting it on the bottom with a double layer turn where the fourth edge is waiting? And if not, how else do you do it?


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## pcharles93 (Mar 7, 2009)

I'm not sure if I qualify as fast, but I either use a double layer turn or just a double rotation. I almost always pause before the first pair though. I know it's bad, but I'm trying to kill this habit of mine.


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## gasmus (Mar 7, 2009)

I think its a bit more freestyle than you think. Its not always restricted to a double layer turn. For example,

B2F2D'L2D2B2L'R2U2LRBL2U2F2U2B'D2L'R'BDU'B(cross colour on D)

Can be solved like this:

X2Y2U2LU'M'X

IMO the fingertricks are easier for cross on top but i usually solve it on the bottom for better lookahead


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## tim (Mar 7, 2009)

I always build my cross on top. Only for cases with 3 moves or less i switch to cross on bottom (if i don't forget to do so).
And yeah, i'm sub-20 (probably around 19s? I've got no idea)


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## Neroflux (Mar 7, 2009)

gasmus said:


> IMO the fingertricks are easier for cross on top but i usually solve it on the bottom for better lookahead



not really, with planning it could even be better than cross on U (abuse Uw moves).


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## tim (Mar 7, 2009)

StefanPochmann said:


> Question for those of you fast cubers building cross on top: Do you all do it like I think Erik and Jean do it, i.e., solving three cross edges on top and finishing the cross putting it on the bottom with a double layer turn where the fourth edge is waiting? And if not, how else do you do it?



Sometimes if i saw the whole solution during inspection time. But i'm slow anyway.


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## Gparker (Mar 7, 2009)

pizzaguy72 uses cross on top and hes sub 15

i do it on bottem


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## dChan (Mar 7, 2009)

Wow, it's cool to be able to click on one of those "Average sub-20" options, haha.

Anyhow, I usually build my cross on bottom but I have noticed, on occasion, it is easier to build the cross fully or at least most of it on top, and therefore have used that strategy for those solves. I've done this only recently, however. Last year, when I was still averaging in the 20s, it was strictly on bottom.


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## F.P. (Mar 7, 2009)

Stefan Huber also does cross on top and he is sub-13/12.


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## fanwuq (Mar 7, 2009)

I'm surprised that so many fast cubists solve the cross on U. I was only aware of Phil Thomas doing this.
I would consider myself to be a cross on D solver, but I noticed that much of the time, I actually do it on F or R, do many rotations while making cross, then end with cross on D as I start my slots.


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## Speedcuber023 (Mar 7, 2009)

Cubing advice could be changed because of this thread... 95% of the cubing websites I've seen have always said things like.. "GO SLOW AND LOOK AHEAD and SOLVE THE CROSS ON THE BOTTOM!" But maybe, cross on top isn't as bad as many cubers think...


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## Dene (Mar 7, 2009)

There needs to be an "indiscernible" option. I probably rotate the cube every way possible during the cross >.<.

Later today I will do some cross practise and try to deduce my style more accurately.


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## amostay2004 (Mar 7, 2009)

I dunno how to vote, I do the cross at a comfortable position, most of the time i'll do it on D, but at times I'll do on U and adjust the cross layer on D, and at times I do it on F and still adjust on D.

Conclusion: I start with the cross on D mostly, then F or U. I almost always finish with the cross on D (looking for the first pair while adjusting the cross)

I average about 16s.


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## Robert-Y (Mar 7, 2009)

I do both top and bottom. If the cross is easy, I do it on the bottom, if it's hard, I do it on top.


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## Derrick Eide17 (Mar 7, 2009)

StefanPochmann said:


> *In case you haven't noticed, our new world record holder for 3x3x3 average, Erik*, uses Fridrich and usually builds the cross on *top*. So I think it's time to revisit this, as probably very few fast cubers do this and I've even seen it be called stupid, which it apparently kinda isn't. Have a look at Erik's solves in the Benelux Open finals, the round after his world record:
> http://www.speedsolving.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10194
> The only time he didn't build the cross on top was also the only time he had a really bad solve (the third one).
> 
> Besides pointing that out, I'd also like to check my feeling that few use it, so if you're a sub30 Fridrich solver, please tell in the above poll where you usually build the cross. Choose what describes you best. Erik for example would be "cross on top" even though he doesn't do it 100% of the time and even though he only builds most of the cross on top and finishes it on the bottom with a double layer turn (as far as I can tell so far).



Nakajima's head just exploded when he read that


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## Stefan (Mar 7, 2009)

Derrick Eide17 said:


> StefanPochmann said:
> 
> 
> > *In case you haven't noticed, our new world record holder for 3x3x3 average, Erik*, uses Fridrich and usually builds the cross on *top*.
> ...


Nah, I'm sure he holds no grudge against Erik and understands that I only used it as an opportunity to get people's attention for building cross on top. Who knows, maybe he'll give it a shot himself now if he hasn't before. I myself intend to study both of them, this is actually part of my plan to quit sucking at 3x3x3 speed.

But to make it clear, here's a better highlighting:


StefanPochmann said:


> *In case you haven't noticed*, our new world record holder for 3x3x3 average, *Erik*, uses Fridrich and usually *builds the cross on *top**.


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## Lucas Garron (Mar 7, 2009)

http://archive.garron.us/solves/2008/erik_7_08.htm


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## Gparker (Mar 7, 2009)

Lucas Garron said:


> http://archive.garron.us/solves/2008/erik_7_08.htm



wow, ive always wanted to know that


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## Stefan (Mar 7, 2009)

Lucas Garron said:


> http://archive.garron.us/solves/2008/erik_7_08.htm


That's was exceptional cross, though, so it doesn't really tell us much.

Btw, is there a page listing your reconstructions (and perhaps those of others)? Sometimes I want to check something but can't find them.

(Oops, sorry for accidentally editing your post, need to get used to the moderator interface)


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## Lucas Garron (Mar 7, 2009)

StefanPochmann said:


> Btw, is there a page listing your reconstructions (and perhaps those of others)? Sometimes I want to check something but can't find them.


They're going to be moved to http://alg.garron.us/solves/ eventually. I still can't decide whether to write the database before or after moving them.


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## not_kevin (Mar 8, 2009)

Grr... I do crosses on L, D, and/or U (I liek has cube rotations). But, since most of my solves start cross on U, I filled that in.

I average around 16. I'm trying to get a sub-15, but I can't, for some reason.


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## Hadley4000 (Mar 8, 2009)

I usually build the cross on the left, and solve on the bottom.

I thought I was crazy, till I saw Andrew Kang doing the same thing. Then I was like, "Oh, I guess it's my lack of skill that's keeping me slow and not my cross building method."


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## LarsN (Mar 8, 2009)

I always build the cross on the left. Then I finish f2l with cross on the left aswell. Just like the current *European champion*.


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## Sin-H (Mar 8, 2009)

I also do the cross on top most of the time and I think that I can say that I'm a pretty good cuber. Milán also does it on top


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## Unknown (Mar 8, 2009)

I do my cross on top, but before putting the last cross piece in its correct position, I do a cube rotation. So while I put the last cross piece in its position, I can look for for the first F2L pair.
My average is about 25-30 seconds.


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## Dene (Mar 8, 2009)

Ugh, and I spent ages practising 3x3 (by ages I mean like 30 solves, deary me that was boring) yet failed to pay attention to my cross building. Today, I promise.

EDIT: Ok I did some cross practise, and it seems that I do a majority of crosses on D, although I have a tendency to change to F near the end of the cross. I occasionally use L. Rarely the other 3 faces. I averaged high 1.xx in that session.


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## pjk (Mar 9, 2009)

I've thought about this. As Stefan H mentioned, he does cross on top, and so does Milan, as well as Erik. Do you think time is being lost in the transition of rotating the cross to the bottom once it is solved, or is that time gained by the look-ahead of the cube you get during the transition? It is tough to tell. In theory, cross on bottom is the most efficient way to solve since that is how the cube will be placed when the cube is solved (assuming you're using Fridrich), and assuming that you can get just as good of a look-ahead while building the cross on bottom.


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## Kian (Mar 9, 2009)

I think the most likely conclusion we will reach here is that the differences are negligible. It's going to be extraordinarily difficult otherwise. I think the evidence points to personal preference first.


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## Stefan (Mar 9, 2009)

pjk said:


> Do you think time is being lost in the transition of rotating the cross to the bottom once it is solved, or is that time gained by the look-ahead of the cube you get during the transition?


It's not only the look-ahead, also what's easier/faster twisting-wise.

I'll definitely learn and practice this, and also Nakaji's style (I think he uses Uw quite a bit) and maybe others. And then determine what's best for me.


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## alv746 (Dec 29, 2009)

*cross on side*

well i still only avg 35 seconds but i prefer to build my cross on the side. that way i can still see my cross, and have a slight look ahead for f2l


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## TheMachanga (Dec 29, 2009)

I do the first 3 edges on top, then the last one on bottom. 22 avg. (I haven't updated my signature in a while.


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## Zorai_Kun (Dec 29, 2009)

IMO, doing the cross on either the bottom/top BOTH have disadvantages. If you're doing it on the top, you won't see opportunities that you would've seen if you did it on the bottom, and vice-versa. 

The whole point to this is that you get to see the cube from different angles, and what you may see from one side, you may not notice on another. And after all, with a few seconds of inspection, you won't get too much insight except a definite solution.


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## SuperNerd (Dec 29, 2009)

I build crosses on top, but do F2L on left.


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## Lucas Garron (Dec 29, 2009)

Since we're bringing this thread back: My 9.15 formed cross on top.


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## ~Phoenix Death~ (Dec 29, 2009)

I build the cross on bottom. But first, I try to secure any F2L pair I may find.


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## Zubon (Dec 29, 2009)

I do the cross on the bottom but when it is time to adjust the bottom face, I use u2, u and u' instead of D2, D' and D turns. This often gives me a great peek at which pieces are in the back F2L slots.


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## adimare (Dec 29, 2009)

I average around 22 seconds. I start with the cross on the bottom, but 9 out of 10 times I do the double layer turn in the 2nd or 3rd edge of the cross rather than the last to start looking for pairs.


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## nlCuber22 (Dec 29, 2009)

SuperNerd said:


> I build crosses on top, but do F2L on left.



You are awesome. Do you do half of your F2L on right or make a cube rotation?


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## AdvanceFIN (Dec 30, 2009)

I do the cross on the top since its easier to perform finger tricks for me. I average about 16 seconds.


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## ~Phoenix Death~ (Dec 31, 2009)

Watching badmephisto's advanced cross tutorial helped A LOT


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## eastamazonantidote (Dec 31, 2009)

I find that my best crosses/x-crosses always come from a combination of top and bottom. I usually start on top and slowly rotate the cube to make the cross on the bottom. However, for harder cases I usually build on the left or right, getting the best of both worlds (look-ahead and speed).

I've been trying to build on top + double layer turn, but I just don't find the pieces fast enough.

I average around 26 seconds but have been without my Jig-a-Loo for 6 months.


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## girishganesan (Dec 31, 2009)

*It really doesnt matter*

@Stefan:
It really doesnt matter where a person CHOOSES a cross to be. The only thing that matters is how well he can continue making moves on the cube after choosing the spot. Did you see Erik holding the cross UP even after completing it? If so he's comfortable with doing Ds and Rs (in that perspective).

I too form the cross on top, but gradually as i complete it it ends up on my left and since i'm comfortable with Rs and Us ( Erik's Ds and Rs) LEFT is ok with me. And by the time i reach the last F2L pair, the cross is almost on the bottom, so i directly start the LL.

Btw, i'm my average is b/w 20 - 30 cause i know only 15 OLL and 18 PLL of The System. (still learning)


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## SuperNerd (Jan 1, 2010)

nlCuber22 said:


> SuperNerd said:
> 
> 
> > I build crosses on top, but do F2L on left.
> ...



No, just full f2l on left. Because I am that awesome.


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