# Starting the solve in a competition



## ben1996123 (Dec 29, 2009)

After inspection, are you allowed to put the cube onto the timer?


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## Muesli (Dec 29, 2009)

The regulations don't cover it, so I guess you could. I don't see any advantage to be gained though and you wouldn't be able to see the lights.


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## Zane_C (Dec 29, 2009)

Should this be in the one answer question thread?


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## nlCuber22 (Dec 29, 2009)

ben1996123 said:


> After inspection, are you allowed to put the cube onto the timer?



One answer question thread. This is a yes or no question and therefore there only one answer.


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## Dene (Dec 29, 2009)

Zane_C said:


> Should this be in the one answer question thread?





nlCuber22 said:


> ben1996123 said:
> 
> 
> > After inspection, are you allowed to put the cube onto the timer?
> ...



And neither of you felt like answering the question?


A3d) At the end of the inspection, the competitor must place the puzzle back onto the Stackmat, in the orientation and position he wishes.

So to answer the question: no, you cannot place the cube on the timer. It must be on the stackmat.
EDIT: And before you ask any more questions regarding the regulations, I suggest you read them, or else prepare to get flamed like hell.


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## Zane_C (Dec 29, 2009)

Dene said:


> Zane_C said:
> 
> 
> > Should this be in the one answer question thread?
> ...


I couldn't answer, I don't know the answer


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## qqwref (Dec 29, 2009)

Dene said:


> A3d) At the end of the inspection, the competitor must place the puzzle back onto the Stackmat, in the orientation and position he wishes.
> 
> So to answer the question: no, you cannot place the cube on the timer. It must be on the stackmat.



I think you could argue (in a competition) that the timer is part of the Stackmat (since that's what we call the whole timing unit), and that therefore it would be OK to put your cube down on the timer.

Also, if there's no mat laid out (I've seen this once or twice), what should a competitor do? The regulation isn't clear, and in fact doesn't provide any option.


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## nlCuber22 (Dec 29, 2009)

Dene said:


> Zane_C said:
> 
> 
> > Should this be in the one answer question thread?
> ...



Sorry. I didn't bother to read the regulations for the answer. My bad.


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## ben1996123 (Dec 29, 2009)

Dene said:


> EDIT: And before you ask any more questions regarding the regulations, I suggest you read them, or else prepare to get flamed like hell.



I did read them, but as it says that you must place your cube on to the stackmat, I thought it wasnt very clear, because I usually call the timer the stackmat.

Anyway, if I was not sure when I was actually in a competition, would you suggest asking the judge?


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## Dave Campbell (Dec 29, 2009)

That is interesting. I agree with Michael. To me, the stackmat is the actual timer (it even says so on the timer). If it happened at a comp that i was delegating, i would not penalize the competitor. 

In fact, now that i am thinking about it, it could be beneficial in some regards. And that is not to say it shouldn't be allowed, but that it is almost smarter for the competitor to do it. You would most likely prevent those incidents like Tomasz had during his WR average, of accidentally stopping the timer as you graze the mat while reaching for your cube. Possibly also saving a hundredth of a second from not having to reach to start your solve.


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## Dene (Dec 29, 2009)

Of course, if you aren't sure about anything then ask the judge. If they do not know, the delegate will have the final say. 

qqwref: I'm inclined to disagree that the timer is part of the Stackmat. I think that would really be stretching any definition of "mat".
Anyone else have an opinion on the subject matter?


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## Stefan (Dec 29, 2009)

Dene said:


> Anyone else have an opinion on the subject matter?



http://www.speedstacks.com/store/retail/competition-timer-with-bag.php:
_"The *Competition Timer* is lightweight and portable – it easily goes wherever you go! *Clip it onto your StackMat* and see how much better you have become at sport stacking."_


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## Harris Chan (Dec 29, 2009)

Dave Campbell said:


> That is interesting. I agree with Michael. To me, the stackmat is the actual timer (it even says so on the timer). If it happened at a comp that i was delegating, i would not penalize the competitor.



Perhaps I can try it at the next competition (provided that the regulations didn't disallow it by then?). At least for 3x3 (and marginally the 4x4), one can still place it a little to the left so the signal lights are still visible.

Edit: After Stefan's post, perhaps it's not an option anymore.


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## Bryan (Dec 29, 2009)

> A4b) The competitor must place his hands flat on the elevated sensor area of the Stackmat



This seems to imply the timer is part of the Stackmat. Of course, it's more likely it's a holdover from the regulations when Gen1 stackmats were used.


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## Stefan (Dec 29, 2009)

In any case, if someone does notice a loophole in the wording of the regulations, it's not the nice thing to do to exploit it and do something that likely wasn't intended. The regulations aren't an enemy, they're our community's tool for standardizing things to have good competitions and meaningful comparisons. Exploiting loopholes just messes with that.


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## Dene (Dec 29, 2009)

Well I'm glad to see I have someone of high-standing on my side. I also agree that the regulations shouldn't be abused. It seems too many people will use anything to make themselves a little bit faster, but are ruining the fun of it all.


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## ErikJ (Dec 29, 2009)

if I'm judging someone and they place the cube on the timer, I'm giving them a +2. this is very similar to stopping the timer with your wrists or the karate chop.


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## nlCuber22 (Dec 29, 2009)

ErikJ said:


> if I'm judging someone and they place the cube on the timer, I'm giving them a +2. this is very similar to stopping the timer with your wrists or the karate chop.



That's not for you to decide, is it?
Nowhere does it say that in the regulations anyway.


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## qqwref (Dec 29, 2009)

Dene said:


> qqwref: I'm inclined to disagree that the timer is part of the Stackmat. I think that would really be stretching any definition of "mat".


I don't think of "stackmat" as "mat used for stacking" but rather as a name for the whole apparatus. (Do you call the timer "stacktimer"?) This is one case where we really need unambiguous wording in the regulations. My personal suggestion would be to use "Stackmat" ONLY for the trademark/brand itself; the mat would be referred to as "mat" and the timer as "timer". If absolutely necessary we could say "Stackmat mat" or "Stackmat timer". Also, instead of the regulation that says the cube must be placed on the mat, it might be better to say "near the timer" or something, in case there is no mat.



Bryan said:


> > A4b) The competitor must place his hands flat on the elevated sensor area of the Stackmat
> 
> 
> 
> This seems to imply the timer is part of the Stackmat. Of course, it's more likely it's a holdover from the regulations when Gen1 stackmats were used.


Maybe, but I'm not sure if the Gen1s had a raised area for hands at all - if I recall correctly it was pretty much flat and flush with the rest of the mat.


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## amostay2004 (Dec 29, 2009)

I think it's an advantage to start with the cube on the stackmat timer, at least for me. Reaching out to grab the cube may result in bad starting grip of the cube and as said above, accidentally stopping the timer. If this is allowed, I would definitely do it at my next competition. 

I think the issue should be clarified.


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## JTW2007 (Dec 29, 2009)

I would say that the cube must be placed on the _stackmat_, not the _stackmat timer_, though I can definitely see a case for the stackmat being the entire assembly. I doubt I would do it if this were legal though. As far as I'm aware, there is no penalty for finishing with the cube on the timer, so it wouldn't make complete sense to illegalize starting in the same fashion.


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## Hadley4000 (Dec 29, 2009)

Are you guys really making this big of a deal out of this? C'mon man!


But, to throw in my two cents. Though the regulations may seem unclear, I think that logically it is intended for you to place the cube on the mat, not timer itself. 

Also,
A4b) The competitor must place his hands flat on the elevated sensor area of the Stackmat, with his fingers touching the sensors and with palms down

It explicitly states where the hands should be, so if the puzzle was allowed on the timer itself, wouldn't it make it more clear to say it was okay to do that?


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## esquimalt1 (Dec 29, 2009)

This is something that should be clarified in the 2010 regs.


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