# WCA Announcement on BLD



## sheriff (Feb 26, 2008)

Edit by PJK: Please keep discussion friendly and make no personal reference to the involved person anymore.

http://www.worldcubeassociation.org/results/p.php?i=2006KUTI01

Something strange up there? The WCA will be telling us all what happened, please write a report asap.

Now, odds and probabilities were, again, right.

Sorry for all of you who still doubted, I had it clear after Belgian Open.

It's a real pity, he was a BIG mith. How can we have been soooooo naive...

cheers


----------



## MarcusStuhr (Feb 26, 2008)

It's like someone drove a bulldozer through his times.

I guess Danyang Chen is back on top of the list.


----------



## Ethan Rosen (Feb 26, 2008)

That is a pretty big step for the WCA to take. I wonder what ends up happening with him


----------



## Harris Chan (Feb 26, 2008)

Not for long, Rowe will be doing sub-1 in Toronto Open Winter (TOW)


----------



## Rubiksmaster12 (Feb 26, 2008)

I wonder if he's going to go to any more comps. That would be interesting if he does.

He's still crazy at the 4x4 and 5x5


----------



## AvGalen (Feb 26, 2008)

Rubiksmaster12 said:


> I wonder if he's going to go to any more comps. That would be interesting if he does.
> 
> He's still crazy at the 4x4 and 5x5


And on clock, pyraminx, 2x2x2, 3x3x3_oh, square-1, magic and master magic.


----------



## masterofthebass (Feb 26, 2008)

http://www.worldcubeassociation.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=388

Read that before posting...


----------



## Crazycubemom (Feb 26, 2008)

AvGalen said:


> Rubiksmaster12 said:
> 
> 
> > I wonder if he's going to go to any more comps. That would be interesting if he does.
> ...



Yes, [name removed] is still wonder boy


----------



## Lotsofsloths (Feb 26, 2008)

NO! How could this happen!?
[name removed]was my speedcubing idol.
3 years!?! Thats..Thats too long  I hope he comes back.
Best wishes to [name removed].
He has the same Birthday as me..Jan. 14(not the year though.)
*Breaks out in tears.*


----------



## MiloD (Feb 26, 2008)

This is incredible


----------



## KConny (Feb 26, 2008)

I wonder if he's gonna keep cubing. If he does, wow, in two years, we will get an ass kicking of a lifetime.


----------



## Jason Baum (Feb 26, 2008)

Wow... that is harsh, but fair.


----------



## Ethan Rosen (Feb 26, 2008)

I'm shocked! I can't believe it. Well, now I geuss it's time for friendlier competition... or something


----------



## Rama (Feb 26, 2008)

AvGalen said:


> Rubiksmaster12 said:
> 
> 
> > I wonder if he's going to go to any more comps. That would be interesting if he does.
> ...





KConny said:


> I wonder if he's gonna keep cubing. If he does, wow, in two years, we will get an ass kicking of a lifetime.



I have to disagree.
People are expertising more and more in one event, you have people who solve the Square-1 all day long, you have Brian Loftus who only does One-Handed everyday, alltough I heard he is also practising 2H now. 
But after a while I think you really need to pick an event you like or your good at to just stand a chance for the number 1 place.

WC2009... WEW I think there will be a time-limit(looking at your past results) for people to enter there.
I am not sure tough, but look at how fast the cubing scene is growing.


----------



## Erik (Feb 26, 2008)

Can someone please change the title of this thread???
"WCA will not use the competitor’s name in communication because the competitor is still under 18 years of age. For the same reason WCA distributed a detailed report on this matter only to a small number of involved parties. We kindly request our community to support the privacy of the competitor."


----------



## Gunnar (Feb 26, 2008)

Wow, this feels wierd. Cheating is appearanlty a part of our sport too now.

I feel alittle sad, since I've seen him as a great cuber and motivator. Of course he still is one of the greatest cubers ever in other events, but I can help but wonder how fast he actually is at BLD doing it properly. Considering his times in other events, it wouldn't be so strange if he did those times in BLD, but now we don't know.


----------



## DennisStrehlau (Feb 26, 2008)

thats just..............................................ohhh!
man [name removed]..what did you do...

Greetings to you...Dennis...


----------



## Ethan Rosen (Feb 26, 2008)

I would like it if [name removed] made some sort of announcement. A lot of people are probably feeling uneasy, and I think it would help to at least get him to admit it.


----------



## Hadley4000 (Feb 26, 2008)

I almost don't know what to think about this. All the time when someone hears me mention doing a blindsolve, I told them, "That's nothing. There is a 14 year old who did a blindsolve in 54 seconds!"

This is going to shake the speedcubing community. 

Return the prize money? That is interested. If he already spent that, paying back could hurt the finance of his family.


----------



## Dcuber (Feb 26, 2008)

"started solving the cube again"
That's like immpossible unless u cheat
I'm kinda on the side against [name removed]
Now they'll prob. be less competition
but i'm sure he'll quit blindfold ONLY if he is guilty


----------



## pjk (Feb 26, 2008)

*WCA Announcement: Important announcement about blindfolded solving*

View it here.

Please keep discussion friendly and make no personal reference to the involved person anymore.


----------



## Erik (Feb 26, 2008)

so that's why I asked to change the name of some threads... don't say the name of the competitor


----------



## Arget (Feb 26, 2008)

Jason Baum said:


> Wow... that is harsh, but fair.


Stole my words.


----------



## Joël (Feb 26, 2008)

Guys, I don't know how you feel about this, but personally, three years seems a bit too harsh. 

I really wonder what this desicion is based on.


----------



## MarcusStuhr (Feb 26, 2008)

Three years is appropriate, in my opinion, considering expected loss of cheating


----------



## fw (Feb 26, 2008)

I agree with Joel. 3 years is almost as long as this whole community exists and we all know that this is hell of a long time in the speedcubing world (look at the records we had 3 years ago). This is too much. I would say ban him for all blindfold events for 2 years, and all other events for... say half a year or something like that..


----------



## Siraj A. (Feb 26, 2008)

Poor Matyas, yet why would he cheat??


----------



## Crzyazn (Feb 27, 2008)

all his other amazing talent will forever be tarnished....

I can still envy, but not respect


----------



## Hadley4000 (Feb 27, 2008)

Joël said:


> Guys, I don't know how you feel about this, but personally, three years seems a bit too harsh.
> 
> I really wonder what this desicion is based on.




Didn't he just turn 15? Maybe it's got to do with a banning till he's 18?


----------



## Joël (Feb 27, 2008)

Hadley4000 said:


> Joël said:
> 
> 
> > Guys, I don't know how you feel about this, but personally, three years seems a bit too harsh.
> ...



From what I heard, reaching a particular age has nothing to do with it.


----------



## MarcusStuhr (Feb 27, 2008)

You can actually approximate an appropriate ban length by looking at the costs of cheating. The ban length would simply, then, represent the timeframe sufficient in covering the costs of such, augmented most likely to further cover any unforeseen externalities and to, in a way, compensate for damage done to the community, as well as to further reflect the general growth rate of world-record achievement (i.e. if records were replaced even more quickly, we'd assume a downward pressure on the ban). Three years is a very fair length when you take these factors into account.


----------



## Joël (Feb 27, 2008)

MarcusStuhr said:


> You can actually approximate an appropriate ban length by looking at the costs of cheating. The ban length would simply, then, represent the timeframe sufficient in covering the costs of such, augmented most likely to further cover any unforeseen externalities and to, in a way, compensate for damage done to the community, as well as to further reflect the general growth rate of world-record achievement (i.e. if records were replaced even more quickly, we'd assume a downward pressure on the ban). Three years is a very fair length when you take these factors into account.



I don't follow this line of reasoning at all. How did you calculate all this?

I think all of this is quite subjective, so I wonder how many people were involved in making the decision.


----------



## pjk (Feb 27, 2008)

3 years seems like forever. I think it should be like 1 year, w/o being able to compete in BLD for 3 years. I mean, after all, he is one of the best speedsolvers in the world. It is sad to see one of the best not be able to compete pretty much ever again.


----------



## MarcusStuhr (Feb 27, 2008)

It is subjective in nature but a reasonable length can be extrapolated by figuring out an appropriate length for covering cheating costs.


----------



## Hadley4000 (Feb 27, 2008)

pjk said:


> 3 years seems like forever. I think it should be like 1 year, w/o being able to compete in BLD for 3 years. I mean, after all, he is one of the best speedsolvers in the world. It is sad to see one of the best not be able to compete pretty much ever again.





Maybe 6 months overall ban, and 1 year ban on blindfold?


----------



## AvGalen (Feb 27, 2008)

The WCA found him guilty
Lots of people helped to provide prove that he cheated on several occasions.
Quite a lot of money was involved
He didn't confess or show remorse!


----------



## MarcusStuhr (Feb 27, 2008)

Perhaps I am just being an ass, but in most sports, if you cheat at one event, you get canned from the rest of them. Just because it is sad because he indeed has a real element of high skill does not excuse him from the fact that he gained unfair benefit over those who were honest. The rules should not be bent for any one particular participant.

I'd advise you all to look at how punishment for cheating works in other sports. If cubing ever hopes to maintain the same general form of consistency as other sports, it needs to operate on a field comparable in fairness of reward and punishment.


----------



## Hadley4000 (Feb 27, 2008)

AvGalen said:


> The WCA found him guilty
> Lots of people helped to provide prove that he cheated on several occasions.
> Quite a lot of money was involved
> He didn't confess or show remorse!



How much prize money has he won?


----------



## Joël (Feb 27, 2008)

MarcusStuhr said:


> It is subjective in nature but a reasonable length can be extrapolated by figuring out an appropriate length for covering cheating costs.



You already stated a similar opinion before, but you did not demonstrate how this should be done.

What exactly do you mean by 'cheating costs', and how do you translate that to a certain period of time?

Btw, I completely disagree with different bans for All events vs. Bld events. That would be a really weird situation.


----------



## ExoCorsair (Feb 27, 2008)

KConny said:


> I wonder if he's gonna keep cubing. If he does, wow, in two years, we will get an ass kicking of a lifetime.



I'm actually undecided as whether this will actually happen or not. He may very well just do that, or he may quit cubing altogether. I'm guessing that this will all be speculation until then.



Hadley4000 said:


> Return the prize money? That is interested. If he already spent that, paying back could hurt the finance of his family.



It's a simple request, and the WCA cannot force him to do so.



MarcusStuhr said:


> You can actually approximate an appropriate ban length by looking at the costs of cheating. The ban length would simply, then, represent the timeframe sufficient in covering the costs of such, augmented most likely to further cover any unforeseen externalities and to, in a way, compensate for damage done to the community, as well as to further reflect the general growth rate of world-record achievement (i.e. if records were replaced even more quickly, we'd assume a downward pressure on the ban). Three years is a very fair length when you take these factors into account.



Spoken like a true economist.


----------



## Dene (Feb 27, 2008)

Firstly, I must say, well done to you Joël, it seems the bulk of their decision is based on your work. Especially a double well done to Mr. Hardwick for his 2 new world records, and the others for theirs!
As for Krazy K. I think the sentence is fair enough. I mean, it might even be 3 years until I can get to one single competition. The time will be over in a flash, and he feels the need to show his face again and beat all his current records, then he'll be albe to, or else he can just never turn up again. Of course, keeping on the same thinking that 3 years in not that long a time, imagine if he were to be in competitions in just a year from now? Everyone will still remember hi and he will be completely rejected from everyone, an outcast full of shame. Hopefully (from his point of view) in 3 years many will have forgotten ,and others moved on. Those that haven't will end up being the rejects then.


----------



## Pedro (Feb 27, 2008)

Hadley4000 said:


> How much prize money has he won?



2000 euros, just at WC07

don't know about other competitions


----------



## pjk (Feb 27, 2008)

AvGalen said:


> The WCA found him guilty
> Lots of people helped to provide prove that he cheated on several occasions.
> Quite a lot of money was involved
> He didn't confess or show remorse!


True. But think about the point of a suspension. It is a consequence of cheating. It is designed to make it him learn, correct? I think 1 year is definitely enough to make him learn.


----------



## KConny (Feb 27, 2008)

I view it as only 2 years. 



> WCA has banned the competitor for three years for all WCA competitions, starting today. The competitor may appeal for reinstatement after two years, if he fully cooperates with WCA.



So if he wants to cheat again he would have to wait yet another year.


----------



## MarcusStuhr (Feb 27, 2008)

Joel: I'd actually have to sit down and try to quantify something, but I'm just speaking in generalities here/approximating/ballparking. I am saying that, for example, his unfair actions technically incurred cost to everyone involved in the competitions. However, during that same period, he also gained through cheating. So, to compensate, you can figure out a reasonable ban period that makes the cheater internalize the cost (in terms of foregone benefit that would be comparable to the costs).

In other words, three years is reasonable considering the amount of money people spent flying to these events, the amount of prize money won unfairly, and the amount of utility foregone by honest participants. Three years is reasonable in this case. Some people have to wait years to even have a crack at a given event.

Bla bla bla bla


----------



## Lotsofsloths (Feb 27, 2008)

The fairest thing I could think of was to take him to a single comp. with no others to compete but him.
Then, give him a scrambled cube, let him do his work, apply the blindfold, then judges can hold paper in front of him.
See if the end result if the times match up with the normal times he gets. If he is not cheating and gets good times(like average times for him) then erase his WR for single BLD 3x3 and let him compete agin, but prize money as to go back..


repeat x3 to ensure he is not cheating.


----------



## Hadley4000 (Feb 27, 2008)

Pedro said:


> Hadley4000 said:
> 
> 
> > How much prize money has he won?
> ...





So if he was cheating to win, got the money, and won't return it, that's pretty much stealing.


----------



## Derrick Eide17 (Feb 27, 2008)

sorry to repost but Rowe hessler wants to state his opinion on this matter, and dont ask me if it REALLY IS Rowe hessler cause it IS. im not lieing or anything its ACTUALY him, so no questions like that. anyway...


rowehessler: [name removed] cheated. he deseved what he got, especially if he freakin lied about it to the WCA. cheating is like the worst thing u can do to the cubing community he elimated the opportunity for other BLD cubers to get the rankings that theyve deserved, like chris hardwick or danyang chen and dennis. these three are 3 of the most honest cubers i know and they deserve the WRs more then anyone. what [name removed] did was selfish and i dont knwo if i can ever forgive him for it. i think he owes all of us an apology.


----------



## Lt-UnReaL (Feb 27, 2008)

He stole money from competitions, and had to cheat to do so...which is dishonest, and also lied about it. Three years seems fair to me.


----------



## pjk (Feb 27, 2008)

Rowe, if you're reading this, email me at pjkcards[at]gmail[dot]com with your login details (username, pass, email) and I will get your account working. I think when you registered last time, your email was invalid, therefore you didn't get the activation email and it made it impossible to get the account functioning.


----------



## badmephisto (Feb 27, 2008)

...wow... that's gotta sting! So much for my respect for him, i don't care how good he is in everything else.


----------



## ThePizzaGuy92 (Feb 27, 2008)

the competitor should have known he was going to get caught, he should have just played it straight like the rest of us. :]


----------



## Leo (Feb 27, 2008)

As for holding a piece of paper over, couldn't you get something that would clip a piece of paper/cardboard suspended over the table with adjustable height, and the cuber most keep the cube under there? I'm pretty sure something that could be used to do this exists, just can't think of the name.

Wouldn't work for standing though..


----------



## MarcusStuhr (Feb 27, 2008)

Just use blindfold goggles and that takes care of everything. No need for paper.


----------



## Hadley4000 (Feb 27, 2008)

Think he will ever admit it?


----------



## Lofty (Feb 27, 2008)

hmm, mixed feelings on the matter. 
he did cheat and steal so deserves a very severe punishment and in that case there us nothing wrong with the punishment, I do feel bad tho for all the time he put into practicing other events and got so good at them all for naught...
but in light of the cheating he did he should be lucky to cube again.
I feel honored to be mentioned by Rama  You and GillesVDP were always my cubing idols


----------



## TimMc (Feb 27, 2008)

Cheating is always a part of sport. What he did was wrong but three years is a bit harsh!

It was the WCA that didn't implement a decent means of being blindfolded. Really, who lets competitors bring their "own" blindfolds to an event? :-/

They'd be pretty hard pressed trying to get prize money back... I doubt the rules and regulations fully account for this situation.

Tim.


----------



## Johannes91 (Feb 27, 2008)

TimMc said:


> I doubt the rules and regulations fully account for this situation.


There's at least this one:

11f) The main judge, organisation team and WCA delegate must not support their decisions with video or photograph analysis.


----------



## Lofty (Feb 27, 2008)

Johannes91 said:


> TimMc said:
> 
> 
> > I doubt the rules and regulations fully account for this situation.
> ...



Is cheating considered an "Incorrect execution of event procedures, by officials or competitors" ?


----------



## Johannes91 (Feb 27, 2008)

Lofty said:


> Johannes91 said:
> 
> 
> > 11f) The main judge, organisation team and WCA delegate must not support their decisions with video or photograph analysis.
> ...


Edit: Nevermind, someone pointed out that the rule doesn't mention WCA *Board*.

/me should sleep more


----------



## Radu (Feb 27, 2008)

i think he deserved it. although i posted before that i don't consider him guilty (until the final proof)

and i don't understand the reason why his name is being kept private, when anybody know who he is..just because he's u-18. 

anyway....all i wanna say is congrats to the real winners


----------



## Shadet (Feb 27, 2008)

Congratulations to Rafal Guzewicz  He is awesome blindfolder, and never cheat


----------



## Stefan (Feb 27, 2008)

Joël said:


> Guys, I don't know how you feel about this, but personally, three years seems a bit too harsh.



Someone also said everybody should get a second chance. And I agree with that. But...

First chance to do the right thing: Don't cheat in the first place.
Second chance to do the right thing: Come clean when practically caught cheating at competition.
Third chance to do the right thing: Come clean when publicly accused.
Fourth chance to do the right thing: Come clean when WCA gives you an honest opportunity to do so.
Fifth chance to do the right thing: Come clean when WCA confronts you with good evidence.

Then he even had the audacity to not just defend him passively but actually come here and vividly lie to our faces as far as that's possible through a forum. I really recommend you read his message again in the original accusation thread.

The cheating itself was bad. Stealing from others is worse, and I don't just mean the money/trophies, but more importantly the feeling you get standing on the podium knowing you won something, as that can't simply be returned. Then finally, all the lying is worst. By itself, and also by causing us all a lot of further unnecessary trouble. Had he come clean early, this would be a whole different situation. As far as I know, he still hasn't. He lied to the bitter end, apparently hoping we'd fall for him, insulting our integrity and intelligence.

And like someone already pointed out, it actually appears to be *two* years, unless he keeps messing with us.

I don't know how the three/two years were decided. What's your basis for saying three years seems too much? In my personal opinion, I don't want to see him again. Ever.


----------



## Radu (Feb 27, 2008)

i like stefan's attitude. i remember when he first answered in the accusation topic some time ago and i thought he was just defending matyas cause he knows him or soemthing like this (sorry for this, but it's waht i thought) like others did..but it seems he is a fair guy with personality and is very radical in his opinions 

btw...i didn't see where matyas wrote, defending himself again by lying...i will search the forum


----------



## Johannes91 (Feb 27, 2008)

http://www.speedsolving.com/showthread.php?p=33880#post33880



> ... enjoying full support from my family and friends.


So, if he doesn't admit cheating, they'll keep treating him as the world's best BLD cuber. But if he confesses, they would see that he is a liar. He obviously doesn't care much about the community, and apparently prefers non-cubers respect.


----------



## Suraimu (Feb 27, 2008)

If this was true, I wanted the medal. 
And, Why is not matyas write about this?


----------



## TimMc (Feb 27, 2008)

Did WCA bother to do the Paper on face thing with him just for him to prove that he can do BLD fast?

I'd hate to see him prosecuted on circumstantial evidence (highly improbable but not impossible).

Tim.


----------



## FU (Feb 27, 2008)

TimMc said:


> Did WCA bother to do the Paper on face thing with him just for him to prove that he can do BLD fast?
> 
> I'd hate to see him prosecuted on circumstantial evidence (highly improbable but not impossible).
> 
> Tim.



He avoided Benelux, what makes you think he'd take the test by WCA?


----------



## Joël (Feb 27, 2008)

MarcusStuhr said:


> Joel: I'd actually have to sit down and try to quantify something, but I'm just speaking in generalities here/approximating/ballparking. I am saying that, for example, his unfair actions technically incurred cost to everyone involved in the competitions. However, during that same period, he also gained through cheating. So, to compensate, you can figure out a reasonable ban period that makes the cheater internalize the cost (in terms of foregone benefit that would be comparable to the costs).
> 
> In other words, three years is reasonable considering the amount of money people spent flying to these events, the amount of prize money won unfairly, and the amount of utility foregone by honest participants. Three years is reasonable in this case. Some people have to wait years to even have a crack at a given event.
> 
> Bla bla bla bla



But how do you make the translation from time -> money? I think if two people would try to make such a calculation indepenently, I would not expect them to calculate the same length for an appropriate ban.

I don't see how a 'fair' punishment can be based on these facts? Is there any law system in the world that punishes crimes by making these type of calculations?


----------



## TimMc (Feb 27, 2008)

FU said:


> He avoided Benelux, what makes you think he'd take the test by WCA?



If he is innocent then it'd be a pretty hostile environment to prove yourself again. Regardless :-/

Tim.


----------



## optakeover (Feb 27, 2008)

Johannes91 said:


> http://www.speedsolving.com/showthread.php?p=33880#post33880
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Stop. It's over. The problem has been settled between us and Stefan. Stuff like that is going to cause more problems and if you are wondering, I really don't want to go through it again.


----------



## Stefan (Feb 27, 2008)

TimMc said:


> Did WCA bother to do the Paper on face thing with him just for him to prove that he can do BLD fast?



Milan did that test at the Belgian Open, remember? There's at least one video of a DNF, and most of that "solve" has been reconstructed (CO, CP, and one edge 3-cycle)(not by me, though I've been involved). It's the same strange method used in the other reconstructed solves, but it appears to be completely random, not solving anything.

I tried to contact him a week ago to give him a chance to correct that solve (adding a cube rotation here and there or whatever went wrong) and thus prove that he is indeed capable of tracking all the side effects like he claimed. He hasn't replied yet, and I don't expect him to anymore.

Plus don't forget Joel's reconstruction shown in the original thread. The side effects during CO and CP seemed hard to believe, but at least it did save some moves. What Joel found was a clear mistake, fixed in an absolutely awful way which makes no sense at all.


----------



## Bryan (Feb 27, 2008)

TimMc said:


> It was the WCA that didn't implement a decent means of being blindfolded. Really, who lets competitors bring their "own" blindfolds to an event? :-/



Bringing your own blindfold has many advantages. I doubt there's one blindfold that can fit every head.Would you expect the competition organizers to buy blindfolds in various sizes for the competition? And have one for each competitor, since they might get sweaty?

Everyone can look at the WCA regulations and find holes in it. Such as I could observe someone solving and learn the scramble quick. But the methods to prevent these are usually to sequester the people who haven't competed and don't let them watch the competitors before them. 

From Ron's post:

"The mission of WCA is: more competitions in more countries with more people and more fun, under fair conditions."

So I believe the WCA is aware of holes, but doesn't want to plug them to the point where it isn't fun anymore.


----------



## TimMc (Feb 27, 2008)

Bryan said:


> I doubt there's one blindfold that can fit every head.Would you expect the competition organizers to buy blindfolds in various sizes for the competition? And have one for each competitor, since they might get sweaty?



That's a possible solution but I'd recommend finding something cheaper so that they can be used just the one time per person.

I'm sure a well designed black box could be used instead 

Or you could numb your eyes with a chemical and have them sprayed so that you can't see PPPP

Tim.


----------



## Derrick Eide17 (Feb 27, 2008)

"I don't know how the three/two years were decided. What's your basis for saying three years seems too much? In my personal opinion, I don't want to see him again. Ever."



Finally stefan something you and I can agree on.


----------



## Swordsman Kirby (Feb 27, 2008)

Johannes91 said:


> and apparently prefers non-cubers respect.



That's an ultimate fail in cubing, in my opinion.


----------



## jazzthief81 (Feb 27, 2008)

Bryan said:


> From Ron's post:
> 
> "The mission of WCA is: more competitions in more countries with more people and more fun, under fair conditions."
> 
> So I believe the WCA is aware of holes, but doesn't want to plug them to the point where it isn't fun anymore.



I think the WCA is just trying to stress the fact that the mission of the WCA is a positive one: they're trying their best to improve the way our sport is organized and having fun should always be the central motivator in doing that.

They don't want to give people the impression that their main objective is to punish people that violate their rules, which is how some people could interpret the current decision. However to make the former possible, such negative decisions have to be made sometimes.

I don't think they're going to take it easy on assuring that competitions are run in a fair way, certainly not after this incident. But according to me that shouldn't spoil the fun in any way: for a lot of the current 'holes', simple solutions should be enough to exclude bad things happening in the future.


----------



## TobiasDaneels (Feb 27, 2008)

Derrick Eide17 said:


> "I don't know how the three/two years were decided. What's your basis for saying three years seems too much? In my personal opinion, I don't want to see him again. Ever."
> 
> 
> 
> Finally stefan something you and I can agree on.



You never saw him in the first place. :confused:


----------



## MarcusStuhr (Feb 27, 2008)

I think the WCA has handled this particular situation reasonably well. Like Stefan said, much of the cost of cheating is not necessarily the prize money (although that is still a big part of it), but the happiness you steal from others! When you win something through your own efforts, the feeling of accomplishment is great. However, many people miss out on this well-deserved feeling if someone is beating you to the punch unfairly. And something like that compromises the nature of a competition.

Competitions need to be fair and the punishments needs to be reasonably tough to ensure the honest people stay honest and that competitions can be enjoyed at face value without worrying about cheaters wasting everyone's time, effort, energy, etc. 

Joel: Certainly! I'm speaking from a sort of economics/accounting view, where time-derived costs are calculated all the time. And you are correct that no two people would get precisely the same length because it depends on the criteria used, but anyway I'm too lazy to debate the matter because it doesn't matter much to me -- I basically wanted to say that three years seems more than appropriate given the circumstances and the fact that the competitor had many chances to come clean, as Stefan pointed out. Many, many people spent hard-earned money to go to those competitors only to compete against someone who wasn't playing by the rules, and who was effectively stealing from everyone in more ways than one on a scale that more than justifies a three-year ban.


----------



## Crazycubemom (Feb 27, 2008)

Derrick Eide17 said:


> [name removed] Should be banned FOREVER. he is a DISGRACE, a LIAR, a THIEF. So why should ANYTHING BE HARSH? HE DESERVES IT!!!!!!



Why you are so Arrogant to him? Is it based of he is GREAT with 4x4x4, 5x5x5.3x3x3 OH ?he should be banned ____FOREVER___ ? reminds me to The Gladiator , where the people yelling out : kill him kill him kill him !,even the third countries have Law Systems .



Derrick Eide17 said:


> "I don't know how the three/two years were decided. What's your basis for saying three years seems too much? In my personal opinion, I don't want to see him again. Ever.".


You don't have to see him because i think HE DOESN"T want to see you either


----------



## Swordsman Kirby (Feb 27, 2008)

Crazycubemom said:


> Derrick Eide17 said:
> 
> 
> > [name removed] Should be banned FOREVER. he is a DISGRACE, a LIAR, a THIEF. So why should ANYTHING BE HARSH? HE DESERVES IT!!!!!!
> ...



lol gladiator

I think the punishment is unjust...

It should be longer than three years.


----------



## MarcusStuhr (Feb 27, 2008)

lol ancient Rome

"ARE YOU NOT ENTERTAINED?"


----------



## MiloD (Feb 27, 2008)

Crazycubemom said:


> Derrick Eide17 said:
> 
> 
> > [name removed] Should be banned FOREVER. he is a DISGRACE, a LIAR, a THIEF. So why should ANYTHING BE HARSH? HE DESERVES IT!!!!!!
> ...



Just pretend derrick doesn't exist. He has nothing worthwhile to say.


----------



## Ton (Feb 27, 2008)

I was and I am very sad about this issue, as organizer I assumed always fair play. I encounterd only one unfair player in the past. But this issue opens my eyes to be even more strict on all rules. 

But we must remeber [name removed] is only 14, this is why I think the WCA ruling is fair. I now have an extra medail. But still I feel very bad for all the cubers in the WC2007 who did not get the proper credits for the blindfold events.


----------



## Derrick Eide17 (Feb 27, 2008)

MiloD said:


> Crazycubemom said:
> 
> 
> > Why you are so Arrogant to him? Is it based of he is GREAT with 4x4x4, 5x5x5.3x3x3 OH ?he should be banned ____FOREVER___ ? reminds me to The Gladiator , where the people yelling out : kill him kill him kill him !,even the third countries have Law Systems .
> ...



Really... nothing worthwhile? thats why i said [name removed] was a cheater from the start huh? and look at that i was right! even though it got everyone mad at me, insulting me, and shunning me out just because i didn't go along with the stereotypical ones on here and kiss matyas's a**, and you know why i did this, cause i actually care about the FAIRNESS and decency in cubing! and if i get ripped apart and constantly insulted for that, than so be it.


----------



## FU (Feb 27, 2008)

I think that 3 years is a fair punishment, but he should be allowed to compete again after 3 years only if he adheres to one last condition: admit to his mistakes and apologize.


----------



## Stefan (Feb 27, 2008)

Ton said:


> But we must remeber [name removed] is only 14


15 (not a huge difference, but let's just get it right)


----------



## Crazycubemom (Feb 27, 2008)

Derrick Eide17 said:


> Really... nothing worthwhile? thats why i said [name removed] was a cheater from the start huh? and look at that i was right! even though it got everyone mad at me, insulting me, and shunning me out just because i didn't go along with the stereotypical ones on here and kiss matyas's a**, and you know why i did this, cause i actually care about the FAIRNESS and decency in cubing! and if i get ripped apart and constantly insulted for that, than so be it.



This is not the point , no one on this forum disagree, nobody kiss a**, it is just the way you write, you are rude , we like a fair judgement we do not need to be rude, we may be angry and upset, And you have all the right to be angry. But have some respect for other cubers , Joel , Stephan they have observe and analyse the issue as expert. This issue should in the first place handled by the WCA on like this in this public forum btw Milan started the topic not you.


----------



## Mike Hughey (Feb 27, 2008)

One thing I'm really not sure I agree with is the statement that has been made a few times in this and other threads that this issue shouldn't have been handled in a public forum like this. Would the cheating have been discovered if Milán had gone straight to the WCA with the problem? I have my doubts. Milán's evidence was purely circumstantial, and while it did cause some curiosity, I certainly didn't think it was sufficient evidence for any kind of conclusion. Since the WCA board consists of people who are generally rather busy anyway, the question is, would they have then undertaken what Joël did, actually seeking out videos and reconstructing solves to look for further evidence? (I certainly would not have expected them to - I think that would be above and beyond the call of duty for them - admirable if they took the time to do it, but certainly not expected.) If not, then it would seem likely that going through the channels would have led to the cheating not being discovered. Without discussing in a public forum like this, I'm not sure this ever would have been found out.

How do we know what topics are and are not acceptable on this forum? Is this really not a free-speech forum? How does one know when they cross the line?


----------



## Kenny (Feb 27, 2008)

1) He's gonna retire and probably isn't gonna be back. But he's gonna pass on his knowledge 'bout BLD solving and your asses are gonna be freaking kicked.

2) I still think he's not a cheater. 

3) Derrick, you're an a**, you're acting like a 3 years old boy. Try to act like an adult, damn it! I don't have any problem with the posts of Joel, Stefan etc. but yours are just absolutely disgusting, damn it.

4) M***n can kiss my ass.


----------



## tim (Feb 27, 2008)

Kenny said:


> 2) I still think he's not a cheater.


Why?



Kenny said:


> 3) Derrick, you're an a**, you're acting like a 3 years old boy. Try to act like an adult, damn it! I don't have any problem with the posts of Joel, Stefan etc. but yours are just absolutely disgusting, damn it.



Uhm that's true, except the "ass" part .


----------



## Hadley4000 (Feb 27, 2008)

Derek. I get that you're angry, and that's fine that you are. But dude, seriously.

I don't think that [name removed] will ever admit it.


----------



## sheriff (Feb 27, 2008)

Kenny said:


> 1) He's gonna retire and probably isn't gonna be back. But he's gonna pass on his knowledge 'bout BLD solving and your asses are gonna be



Who do you think you are? hahahahahahahaha, what tells u he doesn't cheat? have you seen reconstructions? hahahaha. pass on his knowledge? where? when? hahahah.....


----------



## Bounb (Feb 27, 2008)

It's a shame someone would cheat like this, at least he got caught.


----------



## MarcusStuhr (Feb 27, 2008)

It's pretty obvious that he cheated, and anyone who is still doubtful of this is probably not aware of the implications of what he was caught doing. If you're able to discover that you messed up in a blindfoldsolve, you aren't going to re-track multiple pieces and re-solve them all directly.

When you mess up during a blindsolve, you:
1. Either realize this through inconsistencies between your applied algorithms and your memorization and usually undo the incorrect moves (usually in the form of fixing setup moves or using reverse algorithms if you cycled something the wrong direction)
2. Don't discover it and you DNF

Most people would simply fix the setup moves if they messed those up, like the competitor did. Even if one WERE able to track so many pieces as a result of an error in undoing setups, they'd still realize that the simple solution is to fix the setup moves. Also, the fact that he messed up and used tricky turns of the cube to see what needed to be done further indicates visual aid. Either way, there's no real reason why anyone would do what was done on that particular solve unless he was, in fact, not really solving it blind.


----------



## guusrs (Feb 27, 2008)

I think we should also blame the WCA making such cheating possible. 
The WCA regulations started as a description of the cube-games. But history learns when worldtitles, money and eternal fame is involved people or countries (former DDR) can do strange things (use enhancing drugs) to get to the top. 

No cuber ever signed for a contractor document for respecting the WCA regulations before entering a competition. We just played a game, the winner got money and became a hero. A 14/15-year old boy cheating opposite the whole cube-community was just very smart, not against any law, not a crime. Because of his age I think he did not fully realize how he damaged others, stole money, what impact it would have on his live when get caught. In my opinion 2 years of suspension from all WCA-events is too much for this kid. 

And there should be a clause about how he could shorten the suspension by giving back the money, admitting he cheated, making excuses to competitor he harmed. We may expect such regrettable actions from him when he will grow older, be wiser. How will we react then?

Gus


----------



## Derrick Eide17 (Feb 27, 2008)

okay it seems like every post i put concerning this matter it upsets other people and i come off rude somehow? believe me everyone i am not trying to be rude/insult ANYONE on this forum at all. my anger fully, and is only really all pointed towards "You know who" himself, and its obvious why, its just when people find something that angers me so much too harsh for "You know who" it really upsets me because i take cubing so seriously. But also understand its not just me, i have been insulted and talked down to on this forum too. Besides all that though from before, and from now on im sorry if anyone is offended by what i say/have said, this matter is just very sensitive to me, and i TRULY appreciate the people who at least understand where im coming from. Thanks for listening.

Derrick.


----------



## blade740 (Feb 27, 2008)

I believe he cheated. The proof is too overwhelming. However, I also believe that he is skilled. He is, without a doubt, one of the fastest solvers of our era. He has held many world records completely unrelated to BLD, records that are impossible to cheat. The ruling allows him to apply for reinstatement after 2 years, with cooperation. This means, at the least, admitting he cheated. Returning the prize money would be great, but he probably spent it, and has no way of making it back. I think if he confesses, apologizes, and explains why he can't repay the prize money, he can come back and show what he's got. if he doesn't quit cubing, he will probably practice hard and come back and take over.


----------



## Radu (Feb 27, 2008)

derrick stay cool...you're totally right.

it's embarassing to find all kind of excuses and to still support BEEEP (as some do) after all what happened and after all the proofs known at the moment,


----------



## Dene (Feb 27, 2008)

Mr. Eide, I still think you're a [word that I'm not going to use] for completely disregarding PJK's decision to leave any names out of this. By doing this, you shame the person involved even more, and disrespect the authority of these forums that you use.


----------



## pjk (Feb 27, 2008)

Mike Hughey said:


> How do we know what topics are and are not acceptable on this forum? Is this really not a free-speech forum? How does one know when they cross the line?


You can discuss whatever you want. However, for this post, I have been asked to keep it friendly and not mention the name. That should be pretty easy to do. I hate having to edit and remove posts because someone didn't read my one line "rule" and obey it.

I don't mind you discussing these issues, but we need to keep it friendly. If you have further questions about this, please PM me.


----------



## Harris Chan (Feb 27, 2008)

Sigh. He came, he cheated, he got banned.


----------



## Derrick Eide17 (Feb 27, 2008)

Dene said:


> Mr. Eide, I still think you're a [word that I'm not going to use] for completely disregarding PJK's decision to leave any names out of this. By doing this, you shame the person involved even more, and disrespect the authority of these forums that you use.



im sorry you think im an a** but all i did was forget that Pjk said not to mention his name, which also i said i wouldnt mention anymore, and i even apologized. so if you still wanna be rude to me even after that, then fine. treat my as bad as you like, then your the bad person.


----------



## Todd (Feb 27, 2008)

I have to disagree with some people and say 3 years seems fair. It's no different to drug cheats in any other sport.


----------



## jazzthief81 (Feb 27, 2008)

guusrs said:


> I think we should also blame the WCA making such cheating possible.
> The WCA regulations started as a description of the cube-games. But history learns when worldtitles, money and eternal fame is involved people or countries (former DDR) can do strange things (use enhancing drugs) to get to the top.
> 
> No cuber ever signed for a contractor document for respecting the WCA regulations before entering a competition. We just played a game, the winner got money and became a hero. A 14/15-year old boy cheating opposite the whole cube-community was just very smart, not against any law, not a crime. Because of his age I think he did not fully realize how he damaged others, stole money, what impact it would have on his live when get caught. In my opinion 2 years of suspension from all WCA-events is too much for this kid.
> ...



I agree with you that the penalty is maybe out of proportion considering the fact that our sport itself is still going through its puberty.

In some ways, speedcubing went a bit too fast and we skipped a lot of steps that other sports go through as they evolve into a professionally organised sport. We're already talking about world records and world champions, but where are the local clubs and competition circuits where people start to learn cubing as an amateur, gain valuable experience and learn how to behave properly in a competition before they make it to the big time?

Having said that, this doesn't make it any easier to take for the people involved. People put so much energy into organising competitions under the best possible circumstances. For them this is a slap in the face, not to mention for all the people who take this sport seriously and try their heart out to reach the highest level in an honest and sporting way.

This is not about cubing anymore, but about basic respect and I don't think you have to ask people to sign a piece of paper before you are entitled to earn their respect. This is just not how to threat other people.

He should have realised that, but it's perfectly understandable that he didn't at his age. 15 years is indeed young! It took me much, much longer to become a responsible person, that's for sure.

I think a mild reaction from the WCA wouldn't have been appropriate in this case but - as you Guus - I'm afraid that this might scar him too much.

Lars


----------



## hait2 (Feb 27, 2008)

so why was the original thread deleted?
here's his final statement anyhow, quoted verbatim, for those who missed it
this was before the WCA statement, and as far as I'm aware, no new posts have been made since this one


name removed on 02-14-2008 said:


> Heya All,
> 
> I do not often write posts to the forum, but this time I felt compelled to do so.
> 
> ...



cheers


----------



## Dene (Feb 27, 2008)

I think it's an important life lesson for him. Better to learn it now, than when it could really hit him hard, and end with him in jail, and costing him thousands and thousands of dollars (or whatever other currency). I myself was brought up with strict rules on not cheating and how to behave and such. I see no excuse for him, not even his young age. I was more responsible than that as a mere child, let alone a teenager.


----------



## jazzthief81 (Feb 27, 2008)

Dene said:


> I think it's an important life lesson for him. Better to learn it now, than when it could really hit him hard, and end with him in jail, and costing him thousands and thousands of dollars (or whatever other currency). I myself was brought up with strict rules on not cheating and how to behave and such. I see no excuse for him, not even his young age. I was more responsible than that as a mere child, let alone a teenager.



Yes Dene,

There is no excuse, but who is at fault here? I think it's amazing that, given his age, in this whole discussion his parents are never mentioned.


----------



## Ethan Rosen (Feb 28, 2008)

I don't think the WCA can be blamed in any way. Yes the blindfolds aren't fullproof, but I don't think they expect someone to cheat. Usually you don't win anything major, so it's usually a competition where the main prize is honor and pride. I of course think that now the standards should be adjusted, but it is my opinion that he was the only exception to the honesty. I still believe he is a great cuber, but a lousy person. I think though that 3 years is fair, he had many oppurtunities to come clean and he wouldn't.


----------



## ExoCorsair (Feb 28, 2008)

hait2 said:


> so why was the original thread deleted?



Requested by the thread creator and it was getting out of hand.


----------



## Dene (Feb 28, 2008)

jazzthief81 said:


> Dene said:
> 
> 
> > I think it's an important life lesson for him. Better to learn it now, than when it could really hit him hard, and end with him in jail, and costing him thousands and thousands of dollars (or whatever other currency). I myself was brought up with strict rules on not cheating and how to behave and such. I see no excuse for him, not even his young age. I was more responsible than that as a mere child, let alone a teenager.
> ...



Perhaps it would be fair to look at the parents. I myself do not know Krazy K. or anything about him or his family at all, so I can't be a judge. The parents definitely could be a factor, but this isn't a psychology clinic, it isn't really for us to decide. However, even upbringing, in my opinion, is a weak excuse, as there are many counter-examples to the "standard" (that standard being, children will follow from the example of their parents).


----------



## badmephisto (Feb 28, 2008)

i find myself agreeing with Stefan and his 1st 2nd 3rd... chances argument; His stubbornness to not admit he was cheating is pretty striking given all the evidence against him. I just wonder how long he thought he could keep cheating the community. I mean, there are plenty of smart people around here, and many of them (as Stefan already demonstrated in the past) are more than eager to conduct a full investigation at any time


----------



## Swordsman Kirby (Feb 28, 2008)

blade740 said:


> He has held many world records completely unrelated to BLD, records that are impossible to cheat.



Ever seen those magic videos of him at home? Palms on timer. No one knows if he does this in comp.


----------



## Stefan (Feb 28, 2008)

guusrs said:


> I think we should also blame the WCA making such cheating possible.



Bull****. The WCA didn't do anything wrong. It was solely the competitor. If someone beats you up with a baseball bat, do you sue the baseball bat manufacturer?



guusrs said:


> No cuber ever signed for a contractor document for respecting the WCA regulations before entering a competition.



As Lars pointed out, there's no need to make someone sign a contract promising to respect you and not lie to you. Besides, this wouldn't work for someone who's lying anyway. And in my opinion, the WCA regulations are there to specify a common way to do things so that we get good comparisons of our capabilities.

For example they specifiy exactly how to use the timer. Otherwise someone could gain an unfair advantage by starting with the heels of the hands on the timer, and the fingers already around the cube, and start twisting slightly earlier than starting the timer, while others have a disadvantage because they start the way we do now. For that, there certainly needs to be a regulation, as it's not obvious what is right and good, and we need a common way to do it. But... it is *not* necessary to have a regulation forbidding peeking under the blindfold, as that is *obviously very wrong*.

Finally, besides such a contract being neither necessary nor helpful in order to prevent hardcore intentional cheating, competitors actually *are* explicitly required to follow the WCA regulations. Look at the registration page of RWC2007 as well as regulation 2a1.



guusrs said:


> Now I'm also convinced many cubers cheated in the past. *I would have done it myself!*


Good to know, Guus.


----------



## Mike Hughey (Feb 28, 2008)

StefanPochmann said:


> guusrs said:
> 
> 
> > I think we should also blame the WCA making such cheating possible.
> ...



In the USA, you might.


----------



## KConny (Feb 28, 2008)

Just think of all of the time he made us waste on reading these threads....


----------



## Blue Transaparent (Feb 28, 2008)

*What if...*

Good day,

Have we ever stop and think of the possibilty that the competitor did NOT cheat? Maybe.. just maybe the guy does have a system of for BLD that everbody else doesnt know yet... maybe he's really that good... 

Also, what about the second best 3x3x3 BLD solver? in single and multi BLD, they're that good... only he is better... they can also do it fast (the guy is 20 seconds faster apparently) and as many as many 10 cubes for multi BLD.. is it possible that the guy has a very very good system in memorizing? impossible? or improbable? why not?


----------



## jazzthief81 (Feb 28, 2008)

Blue Transaparent said:


> Have we ever stop and think of the possibilty that the competitor did NOT cheat?



Always, until Joel reconstructed that solve at the World Championship. He clearly cheated.


----------



## Stefan (Feb 28, 2008)

Blue, did you read anything that has been written about this incidence? Apparently not. You're the kind of guy who'd also enter the speedcubing community and suggest to solve the F2L corners and edges in pairs. A know-it-all without a clue.


----------



## Swordsman Kirby (Feb 28, 2008)

Blue Transaparent said:


> Good day,
> 
> Have we ever stop and think of the possibilty that the competitor did NOT cheat? Maybe.. just maybe the guy does have a system of for BLD that everbody else doesnt know yet... *maybe he's really that good...*
> 
> Also, what about the second best 3x3x3 BLD solver? in single and multi BLD, they're that good... only he is better... they can also do it fast (the guy is 20 seconds faster apparently) and as many as many 10 cubes for multi BLD.. is it possible that the guy has a very very good system in memorizing? impossible? or improbable? why not?



So good that he DNFs ending with a scrambled cube. Let's see, that reminds me of a story. Someone was doing multi-BLD 3 cubes in comp once. When he was on the third, another person asks "Is he on his first cube?" or something along those lines.


----------



## Hadley4000 (Feb 28, 2008)

Mike Hughey said:


> StefanPochmann said:
> 
> 
> > guusrs said:
> ...



Very true. The land of lawsuits.


----------



## MarcusStuhr (Feb 28, 2008)

There's really not a whole lot to say about this subject anymore. It's nobody's fault but the competitor's. He cheated, and the evidence is overwhelming, and some of it even indicative. I can only imagine how embarrassed the guy must feel right now, but really, it's an essential lesson.

I had another post I thought I made but I don't see it anywhere -- blaming the WCA for the competitor's cheating is like blaming McDonald's for that woman who burned herself with their coffee a few years back. If you fail to follow common sense, you will get burned. Cheating is obviously bad -- if you get caught doing it, expect consequences. 

The positive side to all this, at least, is that hopefully this outcome will serve as a deterrent to anyone else trying to cheat the system.


----------



## Dene (Feb 28, 2008)

Mike Hughey said:


> StefanPochmann said:
> 
> 
> > guusrs said:
> ...



LMAO, well done Mr. Hughey, this is classic, and so very true  .



StefanPochmann said:


> Blue, did you read anything that has been written about this incidence? Apparently not. You're the kind of guy who'd also enter the speedcubing community and suggest to solve the F2L corners and edges in pairs. A know-it-all without a clue.



You are so mean  . He does have a point, the only evidence we have of his cheating is extremely conspicuous solves that have been reconstructed. This, coupled with any lack of defense, is enough to assume guilt, but there is no actual proof that he looked under the blindfold, (by this I mean 100% proof, either a confession or photo/video evidence of his eyes open under the blindfold looking down).


----------



## Stefan (Feb 28, 2008)

Dene, what are you talking about? The Blue guy asked whether anybody ever thought about X being innocent. And the answer to that is incredibly obvious if he just looks at the threads about it. No need to pretty much suggest that we're all bastards and idiots never giving X the benefit of doubt. I do feel insulted by that.

Also, notice he registered at this forum *today*. And talks about a "we" in past tense. And he hides behind a fake name. That guy and his post are among the most annoying and presumptuous I've ever seen. Hence I'm ****ed off.



MarcusStuhr said:


> blaming the WCA for the competitor's cheating is like blaming McDonald's for that woman who burned herself with their coffee a few years back. If you fail to follow common sense, you will get burned.


I disagree with that comparison, as I believe McDonald's actively did something wrong, namely using unnecessarily hot coffee. Also, the story has been distorted on the web to make it appear more frivolous (people just love to tell sensational stories, who cares about the truth if you get attention?). Here's an account of it by a respectable organization:
http://www.caoc.com/CA/index.cfm?event=showPage&pg=facts


----------



## MarcusStuhr (Feb 28, 2008)

Thanks for the link Stefan -- had no idea that McDonalds had actually jacked up the coffee temperature to that extent.


----------



## Blue Transaparent (Feb 29, 2008)

StefanPochmann said:


> Blue, did you read anything that has been written about this incidence? Apparently not. You're the kind of guy who'd also enter the speedcubing community and suggest to solve the F2L corners and edges in pairs. A know-it-all without a clue.



Your right Stefan, all i know about this incident are stuff i only heard from fellow cubers, im only suggesting that the guy might have "special mental abiltiy" that enables him to do such feat, well apparently not.  

One such person can "remember" stuff he did at any given date. I was hoping the guy would be something like that, guess i'm wrong to assume that. Come to think of it, being at that age, the temptation to prove being the best at something (at the cost of cheating) is not that unusual, it kinda reminds me of the movie Shattered Glass.


----------



## Hadley4000 (Feb 29, 2008)

I just hope he confesses. Maybe that will calm everyone here down.


----------



## Dene (Feb 29, 2008)

Ah I see what you mean now, Mr. Pochmann (although your post wasn't the easiest to read). And of course you're right, as Mr Eide would gladly point out, in that we did give Krazy K the benefit of the doubt for a very long time.


----------



## KConny (Feb 29, 2008)

Blue Transaparent said:


> StefanPochmann said:
> 
> 
> > Blue, did you read anything that has been written about this incidence? Apparently not. You're the kind of guy who'd also enter the speedcubing community and suggest to solve the F2L corners and edges in pairs. A know-it-all without a clue.
> ...



Quoting Stefan and use words like "special mental ability", "gift" or "talent" is an action you should think twice about doing. Especially when he's ****ed of at you for bringing old stuff to the table.


----------



## Tim Reynolds (Feb 29, 2008)

In some defense of Blue, the topic "---- is a CHEATER!!!" was deleted/moved. So Blue might not have seen all the posts there, particularly those in which Joel gave the reconstruction of a solve and those in which the topic of "special mental ability" was discussed. I'm not saying that Blue is justified in his assumption that we didn't give "Krazy K" the benefit of the doubt, but there's some explanation at least for the fact that he doesn't know all of the evidence against "Krazy K"


----------



## Derrick Eide17 (Feb 29, 2008)

Dene said:


> Ah I see what you mean now, Mr. Pochmann (although your post wasn't the easiest to read). And of course you're right, as Mr Eide would gladly point out, in that we did give Krazy K the benefit of the doubt for a very long time.



so.. is this an insult to me? or a compliment? or neither?


----------



## AvGalen (Feb 29, 2008)

[Removed name myself], I want to claim the fame, price money, medal, etc that you got at the Czech Open 2007. I am now the real winner of that multi-blind event:

http://www.worldcubeassociation.org...mpetitionId=CzechOpen2007&allResults=1#333mbf

Rubik's Cube: Multiple Blindfolded Final Best of 2PlacePersonBest Citizen ofResult Details
1Arnaud van Galen2 26:20NR Netherlands2 26:20 DNS
2Erik Akkersdijk2/3 23:51 Netherlands0/2 14:09 2/3 23:51
3István Kocza2/4 58:00 Hungary2/4 58:00 DNS
4Gilles van den Peereboom1/2 15:42 Belgium1/2 15:42 DNS
5Ton Dennenbroek0/2 22:20 Netherlands0/2 22:20 0/2 ?:??:??
6[name removed]0/5 9:31 Hungary0/5 9:31 DNS

P.S. Don't take this to seriously. I don't consider myself to be a good blindfolder at all. Actually, I have won 3 events so far and those were all events I consider myself to be "relative bad" at (2x2x2 and magic are the other ones)


----------



## Stefan (Feb 29, 2008)

Tim Reynolds said:


> In some defense of Blue, the topic "---- is a CHEATER!!!" was deleted/moved. So Blue might not have seen all the posts there


Johannes linked to that thread in *this* thread. Also in *this* thread, I described how I actively tried to help X prove his innocence. Plus, even if he hadn't read anything of that, that's actually the perfect reason to keep his mouth shut instead of insulting us speculating about us not giving the benefit of doubt.



StefanPochmann said:


> In my personal opinion, I don't want to see him again. Ever.





StefanPochmann said:


> guusrs said:
> 
> 
> > it can seriously damage this teenager's life
> ...


I changed my mind. Or rather, my mind has changed. However, I don't "take back" what I said there, as it was a sincere expression of my feelings. I was very enraged, now I've calmed down somewhat. Might have to do with me saying the above, I think I just had to let the anger out. So now I'd like to see him back, though after the WCA's ban which I fully endorse. Also, I personally feel a need for closure, so for welcoming him back I'd need him to acknowledge what he did and explain why he did it and show remorse. This is my personal stance, but I think I should post it because I made my earlier feelings public, too.


----------



## adragast (Feb 29, 2008)

To Stephan: I am really happy that your mind has changed, I thought your words were a bit too extreme. 
I consider the way you were counting the "number of chance to do the right thing" really wrong. We are not dealing with mathematics here but with psychology. Are you really expecting someone to say "No sorry, I lied and I cheated" as soon as we have some doubts about him ? Maybe you cannot understand such kind of things because you would never have lied at first but it is difficult to admit such kind of things (cheating/lying). 
Finally, when you said that it was an insult to our integrity and intelligence, you may have been a bit too far. It was neither his intention nor his aim, and he knows anyway that we now know the truth.
Concerning the "why he did it", it may be too personal to be announced publicly. Maybe he just needed friends, he just wanted to be someone or just wanted his parents to be proud of him...
I agree with you about the baseball thing. If there is a theft, the one who should be on the accused side should be the thief not the guy who has been stolen, ie WCA is not responsible for that. It is responsible to take the appropriate actions (change the rule, ban the cheater, ...) and it did do it.

To Blue: Sorry for you, I think you missed the biggest part of the debate. Let's say to simplify it that Stephan and I were more or less the first and the last people to defend the accused person. We disagreed with Mr Eide about the proof nature of the facts he was bringing (I still consider that he was wrong to be so sure about this from the beginning and to accuse us of being stupid not to believe him). But at the final end of the debate, Joël managed to find a very clear fact showing that the accused person was cheating. Until that point, I wanted to believe as you believe it now, that the accused person was using an incredible method.


----------



## guusrs (Feb 29, 2008)

StefanPochmann said:


> I changed my mind. Or rather, my mind has changed. However, I don't "take back" what I said there, as it was a sincere expression of my feelings. I was very enraged, now I've calmed down somewhat. Might have to do with me saying the above, I think I just had to let the anger out. So now I'd like to see him back, though after the WCA's ban which I fully endorse. Also, I personally feel a need for closure, so for welcoming him back I'd need him to acknowledge what he did and explain why he did it and show remorse. This is my personal stance, but I think I should post it because I made my earlier feelings public, too.



Stefan,
Respect for you and your mind Stefan. On this topic we disagreed many times but our minds converge. I agree confronting him with what he did will be a good thing to do. 
Gus


----------



## Blue Transaparent (Feb 29, 2008)

To Adragast: Now I understand where that anger was coming from.... I apologize for my ignorance, and i wasnt insinuating anything nor insulting anyone its just like what you said, I missed the biggest part of the debate. thanks

to Stefan: Point taken.


----------



## guusrs (Feb 29, 2008)

Blue Transaparent said:


> To Adragast: Now I understand where that anger was coming from.... I apologize for my ignorance, and i wasnt insinuating anything nor insulting anyone its just like what you said, I missed the biggest part of the debate. thanks
> 
> to Stefan: Point taken.



Mister Blue, you are new to this forum, only to post messages on this BLD topic. What is your real name?
Gus


----------



## Blue Transaparent (Feb 29, 2008)

My name mister Gus is Patrick Escudero, Very pleased to meet your acquaintance.


----------



## guusrs (Feb 29, 2008)

Blue Transaparent said:


> My name mister Gus is Patrick Escudero, Very pleased to meet your acquaintance.


Nice to meet you mister Escudero. But why is your name no-where on the internet linked to Rubik's cube? What is your relation, experience, knowledge on solving this puzzle or BLD solving?
Gus


----------



## Dene (Feb 29, 2008)

StefanPochmann said:


> Tim Reynolds said:
> 
> 
> > In some defense of Blue, the topic "---- is a CHEATER!!!" was deleted/moved. So Blue might not have seen all the posts there
> ...



The link doesn't work. Or at least, it says something like "you don't have access to this thread". I assume some people can still see it, but most of us can't.

At Mr. van Galen: Yea, go for it! Get your medal back!


----------



## Blue Transaparent (Mar 1, 2008)

guusrs said:


> Blue Transaparent said:
> 
> 
> > My name mister Gus is Patrick Escudero, Very pleased to meet your acquaintance.
> ...



 sorry to dissappoint you Gus, i'm just your average joe.. dont compete in any event nor it crossed my mind to do so... when i heard from a friend of mine about the "WCA cheating scandal", it brought back my interest in cubing and BLD cube solving intrigues me... thats all there is to it... 

I'll try to catch up with my cubing and hopefully i can do BLD in a weeks time.

BTW, whats the best weblink to learn BLD anyway?


----------



## MiloD (Mar 1, 2008)

www.iwannalearnbldbutiamtoolazytolookforanything.com


----------



## Blue Transaparent (Mar 1, 2008)

MiloD said:


> www.iwannalearnbldbutiamtoolazytolookforanything.com



Haha... 
ROTFL


----------



## Dene (Mar 1, 2008)

On a more serious note this is a very good page for learning possibly the easiest method for BLD solving.


----------



## Kirjava (Jun 3, 2014)

Erik said:


> don't say the name of the competitor



it's been ages can we say it yet


----------



## Mike Hughey (Jun 3, 2014)

Kirjava said:


> it's been ages can we say it yet



Please don't. If you do, we might have to reformat ya's account with our disk utility.


----------



## AlexMaass (Jun 4, 2014)

Kirjava said:


> it's been ages can we say it yet


Voldemort!


----------



## antoineccantin (Jun 4, 2014)

Kirjava said:


> it's been ages can we say it yet





Mike Hughey said:


> Please don't. If you do, we might have to reformat ya's account with our disk utility.



It's pretty obvious isn't it?
+ Someone already said who it was in this thread.


----------



## 10461394944000 (Jun 4, 2014)

sheriff said:


> make no personal reference to the involved person anymore.
> 
> http://www.worldcubeassociation.org/results/p.php?i=2006KUTI01



kek


----------



## pinser (Jun 4, 2014)

What were he/she/its times anyway?


----------



## 10461394944000 (Jun 4, 2014)

pinser said:


> What were he/she/its times anyway?



world records

turns out he was looking under the blindfold


----------



## Deleted member 19792 (Jun 4, 2014)

it also turns out that he cheated.


----------



## qqwref (Jun 4, 2014)

These were all WRs. He also had some very crazy unofficial results, as well as a perfect 3BLD record (about 30 solves) until Belgian Open 2008, which was when they first started putting paper in front of the cube.

```
Puzzle		Single		Person		Country		Competition		
3x3x3 BLD	54.83		Mátyás Kuti	Hungary		Czech Open 2007
		1:20.30		Mátyás Kuti	Hungary		Belgian Open 2007
4x4x4 BLD	5:26.03		Mátyás Kuti	Hungary		Swedish Cube Day 2007
		6:12.32		Mátyás Kuti	Hungary		World Championship 2007
		6:39.35		Mátyás Kuti	Hungary		Czech Open 2007
5x5x5 BLD	10:05.00	Mátyás Kuti	Hungary		Czech Open 2007
		21:08.00	Mátyás Kuti	Hungary		Belgian Open 2007
Multi-BLD	15/15 46:17	Mátyás Kuti	Hungary		World Championship 2007
		8/8 27:18	Mátyás Kuti	Hungary		Swedish Open 2007
		7/7 21:59	Mátyás Kuti	Hungary		Belgian Open 2007
```


----------

