# (New) What cubes should be added to the WCA events list?



## GAN 356 X (Aug 12, 2019)

Since I forgot to add so many things, I decided to make a new one.


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## Kit Clement (Aug 12, 2019)

You're still missing the "none of these" option. Only 2-3 of these events are even reasonable ideas.


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## Hazel (Aug 12, 2019)

Dr. Lube said:


> ... and still no axis cube...


Axis cube is just a 3x3 shape mod, it would add nothing. And shapeshifting puzzles would be difficult to add anyway because of the scramble image.


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## Wish Lin (Aug 12, 2019)

Curvy copter and copter is fantastic but jumbling could be an issue.


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## White KB (Aug 12, 2019)

Kit Clement said:


> You're still missing the "none of these" option. Only 2-3 of these events are even reasonable ideas.


No offense to @GAN 356 X , but @Kit Clement is kind of right.

Maybe they could put Magic and Master Magic back in, but they actually scramble it instead of it being the same thing over and over. That would make the number of events an even 20. For people who care about Kinch (myself included), it would mean a WR would mean an even 5, not 5.3333...
However, the old solves from those events would probably have to be archived and not used for statistical purposes. If the old ones were placed alongside the new, it would mix things up* even more.

* = #InsertABadJoke/DadJokeIntoACommentJustBecauseYouCan


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## OreKehStrah (Aug 12, 2019)

Wish Lin said:


> Curvy copter and copter is fantastic but jumbling could be an issue.


When I speed solve it I just use scrambles for the Dino cube so it only scrambles edges without jumbling as it would be difficult to organize in a comp.


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## weatherman223 (Aug 12, 2019)

Let’s focus on whether we should remove certain events before we focus on adding another event that will just turn into a “cram 3 heats in before lunch” event.


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## Sion (Aug 12, 2019)

I would like curvy copter. We currently don't have any edge turning events or many jumbling events (only squan.) This would definitely open up a whole new world of methods and another set of world class cubers, and give attention to such a unique puzzle.

Kilo and master kilo might be good alongside pyramorphix and master pyraminx.


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## Kit Clement (Aug 12, 2019)

Sion said:


> I would like curvy copter. We currently don't have any edge turning events or many jumbling events (only squan.) This would definitely open up a whole new world of methods and another set of world class cubers, and give attention to such a unique puzzle.



If someone comes up with a random state scrambler for this puzzle that has not terrible notation/scrambles, I might be on board with this. That being said, I'm fairly skeptical about this.


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## MCuber (Aug 12, 2019)

Kilominx and RediCube are favorable in my opinion, the rest are just meh


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## Cuberstache (Aug 12, 2019)

Kit Clement said:


> If someone comes up with a random state scrambler for this puzzle that has not terrible notation/scrambles, I might be on board with this. That being said, I'm fairly skeptical about this.


Well hey, kilominx has a random state scrambler with not terrible notation.


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## White KB (Aug 12, 2019)

weatherman223 said:


> Let’s focus on whether we should remove certain events before we focus on adding another event that will just turn into a “cram 3 heats in before lunch” event.


Amen to that. Some events would, in my opinion, honestly be better off removed.
(The ones I'm thinking of are 3WF, 3FMC, 7x7, or maybe Clock)


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## Cuberstache (Aug 12, 2019)

Yes, FMC is a fantastic event and while 7x7 is a bit long, there's really no good reason to remove it. Feet and clock are the only two events that have a chance of being/should be removed imo.


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## Hazel (Aug 12, 2019)

@Kit Clement is there currently any discussion amongst WCA members like yourself in removing Clock as an official event? Assuming you can disclose that information to the public..


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## White KB (Aug 12, 2019)

Xtreme Cuber said:


> They're already removing 3x3 With Feet. I agree that clock should go as well, due to the fact that it isn't even a twisty puzzle. However, I strongly disagree that either FMC and 7x7 should be removed. FMC is such an interesting concept and is so different than any other WCA event, but in a good way. I also see no valid reason to remove 7x7.


That's a valid point, but I had no idea they were _actually_ removing feet solving. Now I kind if miss it... -ish.


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## Kit Clement (Aug 12, 2019)

Aerma said:


> @Kit Clement is there currently any discussion amongst WCA members like yourself in removing Clock as an official event? Assuming you can disclose that information to the public..



Any serious discussion about this would exist on the regulations GitHub, which is public.


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## Wish Lin (Aug 12, 2019)

Wish Lin said:


> Curvy copter and copter is fantastic but jumbling could be an issue.


Maybe there is a faster method when you jumble the cube even if the scramble isn’t jumbled.


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## NeptuneCuber (Aug 13, 2019)

I feel like team blind wouldn't work because of how difficult it would be to post the results. Also how do you decide partners. Master Kilominx is basically a big 4x4. Definitely Redi cube because it is like Skewb. The turning is completely different


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## Sion (Aug 13, 2019)

Kit Clement said:


> If someone comes up with a random state scrambler for this puzzle that has not terrible notation/scrambles, I might be on board with this. That being said, I'm fairly skeptical about this.



I might not be able to create a random scrambler, but I am able to make a notation. Just give me a day, I'll DM you an idea, and potentially someone can work off of the notation to make a proper scrambler with it.


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## KingCanyon (Aug 13, 2019)

Curvy copter sounds fun! I would get into that event if they made it. Kilominx and Redi Cube also sound good.


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## GAN 356 X (Aug 13, 2019)

KingCanyon said:


> Curvy copter sounds fun! I would get into that event if they made it. Kilominx and Redi Cube also sound good.


I believe kilominx 2x2 OH, Redi Cube, team blind, and double OH should all be added. especially kilominx.


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## Hazel (Aug 13, 2019)

GAN 356 X said:


> I believe kilominx 2x2 OH, Redi Cube, team blind, and double OH should all be added. especially kilominx.


Kilo and Redi would VERY quickly come down to just luck, just like 2x2, pyra, and skewb. Kilo also doesn't really add much, it's just a smaller megaminx with different LL algs. 2x2 OH doesn't add anything new to the table, and again it would just come down to luck like regular 2x2. Team blind is interesting but would be difficult to implement due to having two people, and making sure you aren't somehow cheating would also be harder. Double OH, once again, just wouldn't really add anything new to the table. I reckon the best "strategy" for Double OH would be to just solve one cube at a time, and then it's really just OH x2 which isn't different enough to have a chance at being added.
Curvey Copter is an idea I could get behind. It adds something new, because the solve would be much different from anything currently in the WCA. It'd also be the first edge-turning puzzle, like how skewb was the first corner-turning puzzle in the WCA. Jumbling would also be _really_ interesting to see - like how it would affect solving methods. The problem with Curvy Copter is that jumbling most likely makes developing a random-state scrambler (or even a random-move scrambler for that matter) very difficult, even more so figuring out how to generate the cube image in a jumbled state, and they couldn't just have a no-jumbling rule because it would be incredibly difficult to regulate. The hardware for CC isn't great, but I'm sure it would very quickly improve if it became an official event, similar to what happened with Skewb.
Another event that I'd love to see is a cuboid such as 3x3x5. To be legal, cubes would likely have to be cubic or very nearly cubic to make scrambling and scramble-checking easier, but it would be super interesting to see how solving methods would change as people started putting more and more effort into getting fast. I'm positive the standard cuboid method isn't nearly the best possible human method. Other cuboids would be great to see too, but just nothing too small like a 2x2x3 or 3x3x2 because, like almost every addition I've criticized, getting fast would come down to learning algs and high TPS, and world records would come down to just luck and decent TPS.
Master Kilominx (4x4 megaminx) would also be super cool. People would start with just the standard reduction method, but I'd be interested to see if a Yao-like method ends up dominating the scene, or something different entirely. Maybe even a blockbuilding method? Out of all my ideas here, I think this one would have the least amount of roadblocks and flaws.
Mosaic Cube would also be fun (5x5 Redi Cube), but there's only one on the market that I know of and it isn't super popular so it's unlikely.

If I had to choose one, it would be Curvey Copter because of how much it would add to the table. If someone could figure out how to make a random-state scrambler with decent notation and some way to create a non-confusing scramble image, it might have a decent chance of making the cut. I also would love to see how hardware for the event would improve over time!
No event is without flaws, but most of the ones that people want to be added have too many flaws to be a possibility...


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## GAN 356 X (Aug 13, 2019)

w


Aerma said:


> Kilo and Redi would VERY quickly come down to just luck, just like 2x2, pyra, and skewb. Kilo also doesn't really add much, it's just a smaller megaminx with different LL algs. 2x2 OH doesn't add anything new to the table, and again it would just come down to luck like regular 2x2. Team blind is interesting but would be difficult to implement due to having two people, and making sure you aren't somehow cheating would also be harder. Double OH, once again, just wouldn't really add anything new to the table. I reckon the best "strategy" for Double OH would be to just solve one cube at a time, and then it's really just OH x2 which isn't different enough to have a chance at being added.
> Curvey Copter is an idea I could get behind. It adds something new, because the solve would be much different from anything currently in the WCA. It'd also be the first edge-turning puzzle, like how skewb was the first corner-turning puzzle in the WCA. Jumbling would also be _really_ interesting to see - like how it would affect solving methods. The problem with Curvy Copter is that jumbling most likely makes developing a random-state scrambler (or even a random-move scrambler for that matter) very difficult, even more so figuring out how to generate the cube image in a jumbled state, and they couldn't just have a no-jumbling rule because it would be incredibly difficult to regulate. The hardware for CC isn't great, but I'm sure it would very quickly improve if it became an official event, similar to what happened with Skewb.
> Another event that I'd love to see is a cuboid such as 3x3x5. To be legal, cubes would likely have to be cubic or very nearly cubic to make scrambling and scramble-checking easier, but it would be super interesting to see how solving methods would change as people started putting more and more effort into getting fast. I'm positive the standard cuboid method isn't nearly the best possible human method. Other cuboids would be great to see too, but just nothing too small like a 2x2x3 or 3x3x2 because, like almost every addition I've criticized, getting fast would come down to learning algs and high TPS, and world records would come down to just luck and decent TPS.
> Master Kilominx (4x4 megaminx) would also be super cool. People would start with just the standard reduction method, but I'd be interested to see if a Yao-like method ends up dominating the scene, or something different entirely. Maybe even a blockbuilding method? Out of all my ideas here, I think this one would have the least amount of roadblocks and flaws.
> ...




Would jumbling and unjumbling become separate events do you think?

What about clover cube?


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## Hazel (Aug 13, 2019)

GAN 356 X said:


> w
> 
> 
> 
> Would jumbling and unjumbling become separate events do you think?


I doubt it. As I said, Curvey Copter without jumbling would be very hard to regulate. The judge would have to keep careful watch to make sure they aren't jumbling, and even then they could miss something. Plus, jumbling is more interesting


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## GAN 356 X (Aug 13, 2019)

Aerma said:


> I doubt it. As I said, Curvey Copter without jumbling would be very hard to regulate. The judge would have to keep careful watch to make sure they aren't jumbling, and even then they could miss something. Plus, jumbling is more interesting


do you know if there is a current UWR for curvy copter?


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## Hazel (Aug 13, 2019)

GAN 356 X said:


> do you know if there is a current UWR for curvy copter?


The speedsolving.com UWR page only has Curvey Copter BLD (with jumbling), the best time for which is about 23 minutes by Enoch Gray. A quick Google shows a non-jumbling time of 59.27 seconds by UseableCuber 09, here.
EDIT: you also mention the Clover Cube. It looks like just a simplified Curvey Copter, so I'd say we should wait to see if CC gets any traction before we think about a simplified version.


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## GAN 356 X (Aug 13, 2019)

Aerma said:


> The speedsolving.com UWR page only has Curvey Copter BLD (with jumbling), the best time for which is about 23 minutes by Enoch Gray. A quick Google shows a non-jumbling time of 59.27 seconds by UseableCuber 09, here.[/QUOTE
> 
> I saw that one of Useable Cuber. the turning is really satisfying to watch


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## Wish Lin (Aug 13, 2019)

NeptuneCuber said:


> I feel like team blind wouldn't work because of how difficult it would be to post the results. Also how do you decide partners. Master Kilominx is basically a big 4x4. Definitely Redi cube because it is like Skewb. The turning is completely different


Yes, Redi cube will be nice, but as discussed before on this forum, Redi cube's UWR is already sub-3. There won't be that much of an improvement like what skewb did back in 2014.


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## Hazel (Aug 13, 2019)

Now that I think about it, Square-2 would also be an interesting addition. The only problem is that the current hardware isn't good I believe...


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## Wish Lin (Aug 13, 2019)

Aerma said:


> Now that I think about it, Square-2 would also be an interesting addition. The only problem is that the current hardware isn't good I believe...


Hardware isn't a problem at all in this thread. Once it's added, hardware will become really good, just like skewb.


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## GAN 356 X (Aug 13, 2019)

Wish Lin said:


> Hardware isn't a problem at all in this thread. Once it's added, hardware will become really good, just like skewb.


I thought about adding square-2...


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## Wish Lin (Aug 13, 2019)

If it comes down to curvy copter and regular copter, which will you prefer?


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## GAN 356 X (Aug 13, 2019)

Wish Lin said:


> If it comes down to curvy copter and regular copter, which will you prefer?


Curvy copter, because of it's nice looks and satisfying turning. 

If one of them became and event, say curvy copter, would helicopter cubes be allowed in the event?


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## Wish Lin (Aug 13, 2019)

Aerma said:


> Mosaic Cube would also be fun (5x5 Redi Cube), but there's only one on the market that I know of and it isn't super popular so it's unlikely.


LanLan also made a decent one with curved lines, but yes, popularity is an serious issue.


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## Wish Lin (Aug 13, 2019)

GAN 356 X said:


> Curvy copter, because of it's nice looks and satisfying turning.
> 
> If one of them became and event, say curvy copter, would helicopter cubes be allowed in the event?


No because helicopter cube hides the edges unlike curvy copter.


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## GAN 356 X (Aug 13, 2019)

Wish Lin said:


> No because helicopter cube hides the edges unlike curvy copter.


I forgot about that


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## OreKehStrah (Aug 13, 2019)

Okay so a lot of people started talking about curvy copter which I didn’t expect lol. Here’s my arguments for it:

1. It’s unique as a non-trivial edge turning puzzle. Unlike say the helicopter cube, if you do a CFOP apela h you end up with corners in the last layer that need to be solved. Plus there are a few different methods that exist for the cube already. 

2. Hardware shouldn’t be a deciding factor on an events relevancy. The current hardware isn’t terrible and I’m gonna attempt to magnetize one at some point. Every event has had terrible hardware originally. Just look at clock, squab, big cubes etc. You can Florian mod the puzzle pretty easy and I think magnetization is possible. I’ll test that. Skews didn’t have good hardware at first but after becoming an event the hardware improved since there was a reason to improve it. 

3. Scrambling. I think initially it would be too much of a headache to do scrambled with jumbling. I think it would be best to just use scrambles that do not cause any jumbling. The notation for it wouldn’t be too hard either in my opinion. The current notation isn’t too bad but something I thought of for scrambles is having FLR have a U or D pair for scrambling, and F also having LR, So it might look like FU FR RU LD FD FR y2 LU LD FR FL RD FR LD y2 ... and maybe even an x rotation and more scrambling. I think that notation is around the same difficulty of performing as megaminx or clock, and probably easier/more intuitive. 

4. It’s fun! It’s a simple point but I think it’s important. It is something that is not very explored and could allow more people to specialize in something unique. As far as I know I was the first person to get a sub-1 minute solve (I used to have a different account but I decided to make a new one after taking 2 years away). I really enjoy it and I think the turning looks really cool when done fast!


Let me know what you guys think, especially the notation!


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## GAN 356 X (Aug 13, 2019)

OreKehStrah said:


> Okay so a lot of people started talking about curvy copter which I didn’t expect lol. Here’s my arguments for it:
> 
> 1. It’s unique as a non-trivial edge turning puzzle. Unlike say the helicopter cube, if you do a CFOP apela h you end up with corners in the last layer that need to be solved. Plus there are a few different methods that exist for the cube already.
> 
> ...



How hard is it in comparison to an average 3x3?


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## Wish Lin (Aug 13, 2019)

GAN 356 X said:


> How hard is it in comparison to an average 3x3?


2x harder I believe with current methods.


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## OreKehStrah (Aug 13, 2019)

GAN 356 X said:


> How hard is it in comparison to an average 3x3?


I don’t think it’s that much more difficult. The way I solve it is the closest thing to CFOP you can do on it so the solve is completely intuitive until all that’s left is the corners of the last layer. Getting fast at turning it and getting used to how to move pieces is the hardest thing imo.


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## One Wheel (Aug 13, 2019)

White KB said:


> Amen to that. Some events would, in my opinion, honestly be better off removed.
> (The ones I'm thinking of are 3WF, 3FMC, 7x7, or maybe Clock)



I personally strongly oppose removing Feet, FMC, and 7x7, and don’t see a really good argument for removing clock even though I don’t especially enjoy it myself.

If we were seriously considering adding events I don’t believe that clock has enough similarity to current events to recommend it, and hardware is definitely an issue, but absent a strong argument for change I believe tradition is a strong enough argument to keep it. 

7x7 doesn’t add as much variation as 6x6, but with better hardware, fewer possible parities, and more room for error in a longer solve it is perhaps a more accessible event for beginners than 6x6. 

FMC is the (almost) no holds barred pursuit of absolute efficiency in solving. It is different than other events, I don’t especially enjoy it myself, and single world records are getting a bit silly, but it definitely deserves a place in the WCA. 

Feet holds a place between OH and FMC in how much it relatively rewards good turning speed vs. efficiency. Furthermore, it’s lack of popularity means that competitive times are accessible to cubers that might not have he natural talent or thousands of hours of practice time necessary to achieve competitive times on other puzzles.


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## KingCanyon (Aug 13, 2019)

Curvy copter is pretty easy to learn and I'm sure new methods will be developed if it becomes official/new hardware. The curvy copter is pretty different than a regular 3x3 as it jumbles. Its turning style is very different than any other event and is pretty interesting.


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## KingCanyon (Aug 13, 2019)

Update: I just contacted the WCA inquiring about adding the curvy copter as an event. I will wait for their response.


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## Kit Clement (Aug 13, 2019)

KingCanyon said:


> Update: I just contacted the WCA inquiring about adding the curvy copter as an event. I will wait for their response.



Thanks, this accomplishes nothing except giving my wife one more email to give a canned response to tonight. 

The best path to something becoming an official event is to have the event held unofficially in many places with enough participation to show there is interest.


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## KingCanyon (Aug 13, 2019)

Thanks for the response, Kit. Sorry for the mail that I sent, I guess I just didn't think it through. I think that this method probably would work better just because it shows how many people care for the event and if it's reasonable to hold officially. One example would be how they held kilominx at Veteran's Day Open 2017.


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## One Wheel (Aug 13, 2019)

Kit Clement said:


> The best path to something becoming an official event is to have the event held unofficially in many places with enough participation to show there is interest.


I need to start checking about a venue, I’m hoping to organize a comp in December with feet as the primary event, and hopefully 4x4 WF as a side event.


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## Jarredsox (Aug 13, 2019)

None of the above:
Feet


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## xyzzy (Aug 13, 2019)

Aerma said:


> Kilo and Redi would VERY quickly come down to just luck, just like 2x2, pyra, and skewb.


Kilominx isn't nearly as luck-heavy as those other events. How frequently do you see stuff like a one-move layer? That's right, the answer is _basically never_, even if you're full CN. (Back-of-the-envelope calculation says it's around 1/31000, which is less than the probability of getting a 4-move 222 scramble (1/1989), a 7-move skewb scramble (1/9.8), a 6-move pyra scramble (1/414), a ≤9-move Redi scramble (1/4365), or a one-move cross on 3×3×3 (1/1987), and also pretty close to a full cross skip on 3×3×3 (~1/32000).)

It's analogous to a 2×2×2 in the sense that it has only corners. It is absolutely _not_ analogous in the sense that it has a small state space, which it doesn't: the state space is much smaller than a megaminx's, sure, but still a few orders of magnitude larger than a 3×3×3's.



Aerma said:


> The problem with Curvy Copter is that jumbling most likely makes developing a random-state scrambler (or even a random-move scrambler for that matter) very difficult, even more so figuring out how to generate the cube image in a jumbled state, and they couldn't just have a no-jumbling rule because it would be incredibly difficult to regulate. The hardware for CC isn't great, but I'm sure it would very quickly improve if it became an official event, similar to what happened with Skewb.



I know jack about the edge-turning puzzles (i.e. I might be very wrong here) but it honestly wouldn't seem too difficult to come up with a scrambler. Just do it like a square-1: pick a random shape according to the Markov steady-state distribution, then fill in the pieces, and finally solve and invert. 

… And then I did a bit of searching and found this TP thread about enumerating the possible shapes, and (i) it seems very nontrivial (unlike a square-1, which doesn't jumble) and (ii) it seems to be mechanism-dependent (see also Jaap's Puzzle Page's note about how you might be able to force a technically-illegal turn through on the Curvy Copter). Also, it might suffer from the opposite problem of lolscrambles: with "proper" scrambling (whatever "proper" means), you can occasionally get shapes that are much more difficult than usual to solve. (Kinda like how, on a square-1, kite-square is a really annoying shape to deal with for people who are still using beginner cubeshape methods? Except that a Curvy Copter has so many different shapes that it's not realistic for anyone to just learn them all.)

(This is all very interesting and I am now compelled to get a Curvy Copter for myself.)


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## OreKehStrah (Aug 13, 2019)

xyzzy said:


> Kilominx isn't nearly as luck-heavy as those other events. How frequently do you see stuff like a one-move layer? That's right, the answer is _basically never_, even if you're full CN. (Back-of-the-envelope calculation says it's around 1/31000, which is less than the probability of getting a 4-move 222 scramble (1/1989), a 7-move skewb scramble (1/9.8), a 6-move pyra scramble (1/414), a ≤9-move Redi scramble (1/4365), or a one-move cross on 3×3×3 (1/1987), and also pretty close to a full cross skip on 3×3×3 (~1/32000).)
> 
> It's analogous to a 2×2×2 in the sense that it has only corners. It is absolutely _not_ analogous in the sense that it has a small state space, which it doesn't: the state space is much smaller than a megaminx's, sure, but still a few orders of magnitude larger than a 3×3×3's.
> 
> ...


Definitely pick one up! It’s pretty fun and insteresting to solve. I’m still in the camp that thinks that at least mutually scrambles are better off to be done with no jumbling moves. It would significantly reduce the headache of organizing and accurately scrambling.


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## One Wheel (Aug 13, 2019)

OreKehStrah said:


> I’m still in the camp that thinks that at least mutually scrambles are better off to be done with no jumbling moves. It would significantly reduce the headache of organizing and accurately scrambling.



Allowing jumbling is far better: if the puzzle ends up in a position that can only be reached by jumbling, how can you decide if it’s a misscramble (and thus merits an extra attempt) or if the competitor did the jumbling, thus making it a DNF? Better to allow jumbling, and a misscramble is just a misscramble, no DNF or extra attempt, you just have to solve to puzzle.


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## OreKehStrah (Aug 13, 2019)

One Wheel said:


> Allowing jumbling is far better: if the puzzle ends up in a position that can only be reached by jumbling, how can you decide if it’s a misscramble (and thus merits an extra attempt) or if the competitor did the jumbling, thus making it a DNF? Better to allow jumbling, and a misscramble is just a misscramble, no DNF or extra attempt, you just have to solve to puzzle.


There’s no point in performing jumbling moves with normal scrambling. It’s not harder than checking megaminx if it’s correct or not.


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## whatshisbucket (Aug 13, 2019)

There may be more shapes for curvy copter than for squan, but there should not be so many that are reachable that is it outside the realm of computer calculation. It should be reasonably possible to encode the jumbling turning rules and do a brute force search for all possible shapes (not that I would want to).


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## One Wheel (Aug 13, 2019)

OreKehStrah said:


> There’s no point in performing jumbling moves with normal scrambling. It’s not harder than checking megaminx if it’s correct or not.


It could happen accidentally, is the point, and megaminxes don’t have to be scrambled perfectly. Even if it’s checked it be missed.


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## Sion (Aug 13, 2019)

OreKehStrah said:


> There’s no point in performing jumbling moves with normal scrambling. It’s not harder than checking megaminx if it’s correct or not.



It's better the scrambles come with the cube jumbled, as it goes along with capabilities deliberately given to the puzzle.

Jumble-Free scrambles on curvy copter is almost like requiring squan scrambles to only be in cubeshape.


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## One Wheel (Aug 14, 2019)

Sion said:


> requiring squan scrambles to only be in cubeshape.


Excellent analogy.


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## OreKehStrah (Aug 14, 2019)

Sion said:


> It's better the scrambles come with the cube jumbled, as it goes along with capabilities deliberately given to the puzzle.
> 
> Jumble-Free scrambles on curvy copter is almost like requiring squan scrambles to only be in cubeshape.


It’s definitely more interesting. Good luck with notation


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## Sion (Aug 14, 2019)

OreKehStrah said:


> It’s definitely more interesting. Good luck with notation



I have a notation ready, expect a thread on it soon so people can experiment with it a little


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## Iwannaganx (Aug 14, 2019)

What about 2BLD?


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## GAN 356 X (Aug 14, 2019)

Iwannaganx said:


> What about 2BLD?


If you knew the EG method on 2x2, blind would be just the same, as you use on-look anyway.


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## Wish Lin (Aug 14, 2019)

Iwannaganx said:


> What about 2BLD?


That is already an WCA event. Top 2x2 cubers can do that every solve, which is called one-look.


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## Iwannaganx (Aug 14, 2019)

Oh yeah, didn't think of that. But they do that in inspection so wouldn't 2BLD still be different? The times would be closer to 5-10 seconds instead of 1-2 seconds...
But yeah only thought of that now oops


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## Wish Lin (Aug 14, 2019)

Iwannaganx said:


> Oh yeah, didn't think of that. But they do that in inspection so wouldn't 2BLD still be different? The times would be closer to 5-10 seconds instead of 1-2 seconds...
> But yeah only thought of that now oops


Some Chris Olsen vids shows him can one look in 2-3s


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## Fukuoka Kengo James (Aug 14, 2019)

GAN 356 X said:


> Since I forgot to add so many things, I decided to make a new one.


master pyraminx?


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## GAN 356 X (Aug 14, 2019)

Fukuoka Kengo James said:


> master pyraminx?


good point


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## Fukuoka Kengo James (Aug 14, 2019)

GAN 356 X said:


> good point


What is team blind?


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## GAN 356 X (Aug 14, 2019)

Fukuoka Kengo James said:


> What is team blind?


either where there's a team of 2 and one person tells the other blindfolded person what to do or a team's given a random amount of cubes and have to solve them all correctly. I really don't know but I thought it was a cool idea


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## OreKehStrah (Aug 14, 2019)

Sion said:


> I have a notation ready, expect a thread on it soon so people can experiment with it a little


Okay, I think it’ll be cool to see where it goes. Again I think I should state that I’m not opposed to jumbling. I just think that initially adding curvy copter would be better/ easier to not use jumbling because I think it would simplify its implementation into the WCA. I think it would be cool although probably a bit redundant to have two events: one with and one without jumbling. That way the people who want jumbling can organize it and smaller comps don’t have to have the headache jumbling scrambles May cause.


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## KingCanyon (Aug 14, 2019)

We should make an unofficial competition (possibly on the forum) with curvy copter on it. This could test out the notation/see if it is realistic to hold officially.


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## Mike Hughey (Aug 14, 2019)

KingCanyon said:


> We should make an unofficial competition (possibly on the forum) with curvy copter on it. This could test out the notation/see if it is realistic to hold officially.


Might be a good possible addition to the weekly competition for the beginning of 2020.


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## Hazel (Aug 14, 2019)

xyzzy said:


> Kilominx isn't nearly as luck-heavy as those other events. How frequently do you see stuff like a one-move layer? That's right, the answer is _basically never_, even if you're full CN. (Back-of-the-envelope calculation says it's around 1/31000, which is less than the probability of getting a 4-move 222 scramble (1/1989), a 7-move skewb scramble (1/9.8), a 6-move pyra scramble (1/414), a ≤9-move Redi scramble (1/4365), or a one-move cross on 3×3×3 (1/1987), and also pretty close to a full cross skip on 3×3×3 (~1/32000).)
> 
> It's analogous to a 2×2×2 in the sense that it has only corners. It is absolutely _not_ analogous in the sense that it has a small state space, which it doesn't: the state space is much smaller than a megaminx's, sure, but still a few orders of magnitude larger than a 3×3×3's.
> 
> ...


Thanks for taking the time to respond to me  I then take back my point on how Kilominx would be primarily luck-based. I still don't think it adds much to the table, just being a more simple megaminx with different LL algs, but if there was enough push I'd be happy if they added it as an official event.
If someone were to create a random-state scrambler for Curvy Copter, including jumbling, without the scrambles being too long and with decent notation, I think it would be a great help in the push to get it added as an official attempt. The only roadblock after that is creating the scramble images. How would you do that for a jumbling puzzle without them being too complicated to check?


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## VIBE_ZT (Aug 14, 2019)

KingCanyon said:


> We should make an unofficial competition (possibly on the forum) with curvy copter on it. This could test out the notation/see if it is realistic to hold officially.


Once someone comes up with a notation for it, someone should post a thread on which they leave scrambles and host said competition. Then maybe competitors could leave feedback on how it went, if they had problems, if they liked it, ect. Would be interesting.
Cubing is always evolving, and I think that this could be interesting.


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## Brayden Adams (Aug 14, 2019)

call me crazy but i think 4x4 FMC should be added


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## VIBE_ZT (Aug 14, 2019)

Brayden Adams said:


> call me crazy but i think 4x4 FMC should be added


I have tried 4x4 FMC. It is HARD.
Would probably take a long time for a decent attempt, so I'm not sure how many competitions would hold it. 

Interesting, though. Maybe on the Speedsolving forum comp?


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## cubeshepherd (Aug 14, 2019)

KingCanyon said:


> We should make an unofficial competition (possibly on the forum) with curvy copter on it. This could test out the notation/see if it is realistic to hold officially.


That would be cool and good idea...but I do not have one and know how to solve it...guess what I might be getting soon, haha.


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## whatshisbucket (Aug 14, 2019)

OreKehStrah said:


> Okay, I think it’ll be cool to see where it goes. Again I think I should state that I’m not opposed to jumbling. I just think that initially adding curvy copter would be better/ easier to not use jumbling because I think it would simplify its implementation into the WCA. I think it would be cool although probably a bit redundant to have two events: one with and one without jumbling. That way the people who want jumbling can organize it and smaller comps don’t have to have the headache jumbling scrambles May cause.


Frankly I don't think jumbling would cause that much of a headache. Like squan, it would be the case that the majority of the scramble would keep the cube in it's default shape and only the last few moves would jumble it. I don't think there are any shapes that are very many moves from cubes, so I don't think it will be any harder than squan.


Aerma said:


> Thanks for taking the time to respond to me  I then take back my point on how Kilominx would be primarily luck-based. I still don't think it adds much to the table, just being a more simple megaminx with different LL algs, but if there was enough push I'd be happy if they added it as an official event.
> If someone were to create a random-state scrambler for Curvy Copter, including jumbling, without the scrambles being too long and with decent notation, I think it would be a great help in the push to get it added as an official attempt. The only roadblock after that is creating the scramble images. How would you do that for a jumbling puzzle without them being too complicated to check?


Generating a 3D image showing 3 faces would probably be doable and good enough.


VIBE_ZT said:


> I have tried 4x4 FMC. It is HARD.
> Would probably take a long time for a decent attempt, so I'm not sure how many competitions would hold it.
> 
> Interesting, though. Maybe on the Speedsolving forum comp?


It was formerly an event in the weekly competition but it has since been removed because it's hard.


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## CurlyFries (Aug 14, 2019)

GAN 356 X said:


> either where there's a team of 2 and one person tells the other blindfolded person what to do or a team's given a random amount of cubes and have to solve them all correctly. I really don't know but I thought it was a cool idea


Team Blind refers to the first idea, one person blindfolded, one giving instructions. 
It is interesting to think how the results would be tracked and the best “speed” method. Would the instructor say letter pairs to execute or would they say how to do each F2L pair. This would also bring up the need for people to learn the names of each case, like the number for each case as labeled in algDB or something.


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## Mike Hughey (Aug 14, 2019)

whatshisbucket said:


> It was formerly an event in the weekly competition but it has since been removed because it's hard.


I wouldn't necessarily say it was removed because it was hard. It was removed because it wasn't very popular.

We allowed 2.5 hours for an attempt. I competed many times in it, and really rather enjoyed it. But it does take an awful lot of time. Many weeks I was the only one who competed in it. I would say the average participant count was somewhere around 2 people per week. Not far off what 7BLD is now, actually.


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## Sion (Aug 14, 2019)

Curvy copter is our best bet, since not much is known about it outside of rudimentary beginner level methods and ironically since not many people actually do it, meaning there's less of a chance that we will reach optimal times before the event is officialized (as in the case of redi and kilo). Curvy would definitely be a much more even playing field.


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## KingCanyon (Aug 14, 2019)

It would be hard to come up with more advanced methods for curvy copter. I only saw a couple beginner level methods on youtube (The most popular by RedKB). It definitely is possible, as I'm sure the beginner's method to solve it is far from the most efficient.


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## Sion (Aug 14, 2019)

https://www.speedsolving.com/threads/sion-notation-for-curvy-copter.74968/


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## Competition Cuber (Aug 14, 2019)

Kit Clement said:


> Any serious discussion about this would exist on the regulations GitHub, which is public.


Do you mind if I could have a link to this?


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## freshcuber.de (Aug 14, 2019)

I would love to have a real blind event where also inspection is without eyes. With the Rubik's Touch Cube or similar cubes. That would bring something really new to the community and it would bring blind persons an event where they can really compare with seeing people.


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## jakelevine (Aug 14, 2019)

I also like the idea of a 4x4 FMC or even 5x5 since I imagine lots of different ways of approaching it that would be interesting.


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## Mike Hughey (Aug 14, 2019)

Competition Cuber said:


> Do you mind if I could have a link to this?


https://github.com/thewca/wca-regulations/issues


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## xyzzy (Aug 15, 2019)

whatshisbucket said:


> I don't think there are any shapes that are very many moves from cubes, so I don't think it will be any harder than squan.


You don't have to think whether there are shapes that are very many moves from cubeshape, because someone has already computed the distance distribution. A few percent of states (rare, but not especially unlikely) are 25 moves or further away from cube, with the maximum possible distance being 28 moves.

(Additional complication: on the square-1, the scrambler actually solves CSP, not just cubeshape. The analogue of CSP on a Curvy Copter would be much more complicated, and may increase the average/maximum distance a lot.)


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## OreKehStrah (Aug 15, 2019)

Something I thought about is the shape argument using squan. While it probably wouldn’t harder to deal with than squan, it still invariably is more complicated to scramble. Both will change shape, but with squan, the shape is changed only by turning the U/D layers and slicing. However, the jumbling on the CC can by done on many sides so I do think it is more complicated and not a perfect comparison, albeit close. I think it may be difficult to do the scrambling images cleanly. I do believe Sion had a pretty good idea about the +/- for doing jumbling moves though!


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## whatshisbucket (Aug 15, 2019)

xyzzy said:


> You don't have to think whether there are shapes that are very many moves from cubeshape, because someone has already computed the distance distribution. A few percent of states (rare, but not especially unlikely) are 25 moves or further away from cube, with the maximum possible distance being 28 moves.
> 
> (Additional complication: on the square-1, the scrambler actually solves CSP, not just cubeshape. The analogue of CSP on a Curvy Copter would be much more complicated, and may increase the average/maximum distance a lot.)


Thanks, that post is fantastic. I didn't realize the extent to which this puzzle could jumble (I thought there would be at most 1000 shapes).


OreKehStrah said:


> Something I thought about is the shape argument using squan. While it probably wouldn’t harder to deal with than squan, it still invariably is more complicated to scramble. Both will change shape, but with squan, the shape is changed only by turning the U/D layers and slicing. However, the jumbling on the CC can by done on many sides so I do think it is more complicated and not a perfect comparison, albeit close. I think it may be difficult to do the scrambling images cleanly. I do believe Sion had a pretty good idea about the +/- for doing jumbling moves though!


Of course it's gonna be more complicated to scramble, the jumbling has far more possibilities. It would be fine for competitions if the scrambles were 60 moves or even more, since the competitors will mostly be taking far longer to solve this puzzle than a squan.


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## OreKehStrah (Aug 15, 2019)

whatshisbucket said:


> Thanks, that post is fantastic. I didn't realize the extent to which this puzzle could jumble (I thought there would be at most 1000 shapes).
> 
> Of course it's gonna be more complicated to scramble, the jumbling has far more possibilities. It would be fine for competitions if the scrambles were 60 moves or even more, since the competitors will mostly be taking far longer to solve this puzzle than a squan.


Yeah. I brought that up because I was proposing using non humbling initially until a good system is in place for jumbling. People then compared that to cubeshspe only scrambles which i wanted to show isn’t a perfect analogy because the CC has many more axis that can turn and change shape.


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## aerocube (Aug 26, 2019)

a kilominx would be a cool event,but i can't see the event list expanding for a long time due to it being hard to fit in 18 events anyway
if feet does actually get removed though,something like kilominx could replace that


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## GAN 356 X (Aug 26, 2019)

aerocube said:


> a kilominx would be a cool event,but i can't see the event list expanding for a long time due to it being hard to fit in 18 events anyway
> if feet does actually get removed though,something like kilominx could replace that


It would also see a huge development in hardware as right now there's only 2 or 3 kilo minx's out there


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## Fukuoka Kengo James (Aug 26, 2019)

GAN 356 X said:


> It would also see a huge development in hardware as right now there's only 2 or 3 kilo minx's out there


Master Pyraminx!


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## kadabrium (Aug 27, 2019)

https://tiermaker.com/create/wca-event-additions-54390 someone shared this tier list template a while ago. 

heres mine (last places are for puzzles i dont know much about)


https://imgur.com/lJoXkLn


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## aerocube (Aug 27, 2019)

kadabrium said:


> https://tiermaker.com/create/wca-event-additions-54390 someone shared this tier list template a while ago.
> 
> heres mine (last places are for puzzles i dont know much about)
> 
> ...


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## Kit Clement (Aug 27, 2019)

S: Events that we need to add.
A: Events we probably should add.
B: Events that should be added to replace Pyraminx.
C: I guess I won't die if we add these.
D: Barely not trash
E: Trash
F: Dumpster fire (Logistically impossible for the WCA to run)


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## Parke187 (Aug 27, 2019)

Bruh why would you want mirror bld? stupid idea


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## Mike Hughey (Aug 27, 2019)

I assume the reason you say mirror blocks is logistically impossible is because of inadvertent turning when bringing the cube to the competitor - difficulty placing the cube on the table without messing up the scramble (like square-1 without the inserts)?



Parke187 said:


> Bruh why would you want mirror bld? stupid idea


Mirror BLD, without inspection. Really not such a stupid idea. Plenty of other events are worse, including some official ones. And I personally love this one because it would even the playing field for actual blind competitors, like the couple we have occasionally post on this forum. But I do recognize the logistical difficulty.


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## kadabrium (Aug 27, 2019)

isnt re-scramble just inverse speedbld?

anyway for things not in the template, my personal bias wants jings pyraminx to replace both pyraminx and skewb.


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## aerocube (Aug 27, 2019)

a lot of the suggestions on the tier list would be really repetitive imo
stuff like 8x8 and 9x9 and 6BLD just add time and there would be no use to adding more than 1 cuboid
if people really like unnoficial events,add them to a comp you host or do them add home and try to get UWR
the bigger the community around an event,the more chance it has of being official



kadabrium said:


> isnt re-scramble just inverse speedbld?
> 
> anyway for things not in the template, my personal bias wants jings pyraminx to replace both pyraminx and skewb.


rescramble is basically BLD but without a blindfold
everybody good at 3BLD would be good at rescramble due to it being easiest to do using BLD methods


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## Fukuoka Kengo James (Aug 27, 2019)

aerocube said:


> a lot of the suggestions on the tier list would be really repetitive imo
> stuff like 8x8 and 9x9 and 6BLD just add time and there would be no use to adding more than 1 cuboid
> if people really like unnoficial events,add them to a comp you host or do them add home and try to get UWR
> the bigger the community around an event,the more chance it has of being official


Master kilominx and gigaminx will be the same, since they take a long time to solve, at least longer than solving a 7x7.Hardware are not well developed. However, adding more than 1 cuboid may not always make an event useless to be added. For example, Master Pyraminx, do not take a long time to solve. QiYi and Sheng Shou have made speed master pyraminx, so the hardware are not bad.


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## aerocube (Aug 27, 2019)

Fukuoka Kengo James said:


> Master kilominx and gigaminx will be the same, since they take a long time to solve, at least longer than solving a 7x7.Hardware are not well developed. However, adding more than 1 cuboid may not always make an event useless to be added. For example, Master Pyraminx, do not take a long time to solve. QiYi and Sheng Shou have made speed master pyraminx, so the hardware are not bad.


the best people at master kilominx take around 4 minutes,so i guess it would be too long
master pyraminx seems interesting,but the worry is that it could get trivial quickly


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## Fukuoka Kengo James (Aug 27, 2019)

aerocube said:


> the best people at master kilominx take around 4 minutes,so i guess it would be too long
> master pyraminx seems interesting,but the worry is that it could get trivial quickly


the best people at master pyraminx take less than 13 seconds, while the best people at kilominx/kibiminx takes less than 11 seconds.


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## aerocube (Aug 27, 2019)

Fukuoka Kengo James said:


> the best people at master pyraminx take less than 13 seconds, while the best people at kilominx/kibiminx takes less than 11 seconds.


skewb was originally a longer event before people figured out it could be solved in a 2x2-style way with loads of algs
master pyraminx could become trivial


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## Fukuoka Kengo James (Aug 27, 2019)

aerocube said:


> skewb was originally a longer event before people figured out it could be solved in a 2x2-style way with loads of algs
> master pyraminx could become trivial


What about redi cube? There is a magnetic one from Yuxin, so hardware is very good.


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## Fukuoka Kengo James (Aug 27, 2019)

GAN 356 X said:


> Since I forgot to add so many things, I decided to make a new one.


I think we can refer to this: https://www.speedsolving.com/wiki/index.php/List_of_Unofficial_World_Records


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## aerocube (Aug 27, 2019)

Fukuoka Kengo James said:


> What about redi cube? There is a magnetic one from Yuxin, so hardware is very good.


redi cube uwr is around 3 seconds,it's already pretty trivial


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## whatshisbucket (Aug 27, 2019)

Fukuoka Kengo James said:


> the best people at master pyraminx take less than 13 seconds, while the best people at kilominx/kibiminx takes less than 11 seconds.





aerocube said:


> skewb was originally a longer event before people figured out it could be solved in a 2x2-style way with loads of algs
> master pyraminx could become trivial


You guys are kidding right? No one averages less than 24 or 17 on those puzzles respectively; saying the best people take [UWR single time] isn't very fair. Both puzzles are sufficiently complicated and have enough pieces that averages would never be based primarily on luck.


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## Fukuoka Kengo James (Aug 27, 2019)

whatshisbucket said:


> You guys are kidding right? No one averages less than 24 or 17 on those puzzles respectively; saying the best people take [UWR single time] isn't very fair. Both puzzles are sufficiently complicated and have enough pieces that averages would never be based primarily on luck.


Yes! That's why Master Pyraminx and kilominx/kibiminx should be added to the WCA events. It will be fun. They are not trivial.


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## Kit Clement (Aug 28, 2019)

Mike Hughey said:


> I assume the reason you say mirror blocks is logistically impossible is because of inadvertent turning when bringing the cube to the competitor - difficulty placing the cube on the table without messing up the scramble (like square-1 without the inserts)?



No, it's because I see it impossible to regulate what is a legal mirror blocks puzzle. Many exist out there that are symmetric and have interchangeable pieces in the solved state, which is difficult to detect by the naked eye. Additionally, there could be mirror blocks puzzles that are more/less "bumped" than others, or have sides with different varied lengths. That to me makes it nearly impossible to encode puzzle regulations for this event, as there probably should be limits on what is acceptable, but I can't see them being easily written in our regs. Even if they somehow do get written, I can't see them easily being implemented without all delegates owning their own caliper.


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## Wish Lin (Aug 28, 2019)

Kit Clement said:


>


Just curious, what makes you think the second puzzle in C tier better than anything in E tier?


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## VIBE_ZT (Aug 28, 2019)

*Curvy Copter in my opinion is definitely the most viable of new events.*

*The hardware is kinda bad, yes, but that leaves a lot of room for improvement. *Isn't that what happened for Skewb, Square-1, and big cubes? 

*There is no great method for it yet.* Very recently, there have been developments in Last 4 Corners algorithms, but there is definitely room for improvement throughout. With the UWR being around 50 seconds (I think? Idek where I'd find that) there is definitely room for improvement throughout. It is the kind of puzzle that definitely won't warrent any sort ridiculous lucky single, like 2x2 or Pyraminx. 

*It is not like any other WCA puzzle.*
All other puzzles turn either on a face, or with a slice or something. There is no puzzle that turns along an edge, like the Curvy Copter does. Most cubers will probably have no idea how to approach a puzzle like this, and it would present a good challenge to most cubers, and give them a new challenge. 
Yeah, people with experience will be able to figure it out quickly, and itll be easy, yada yada yada, but... The community isn't all advanced, world-class cubers. And competitions aren't just for these elite cubers, right?


*With 3x3 Feet possibly being removed, there would be a spot for a new puzzle.*
Perhaps the Curvy Copter could be the puzzle that could fill the spot. And for those of you saying that it would be too many events for a competition... Well, most competitions hold barely a third of the events. Championships would be fine with the absence of Feet. Maybe it would take up even less time, considering that many Feet attempts can take upwards of 4 minutes.


*But wait! What about jumbling!?*

I'll admit, you'd have me there. This is the only problem with it.

The only other jumbling puzzle is Square-1. And even then, the jumbling is maneagable and intuitive. 

With a Curvy Copter... It is a lot more difficult.

A scrambler would prove to be difficult. And notation might be a bother. But in the few weeks that the Curvy Copter has gained traction, I have seen multiple viable notations, and work on a scrambler. I'm sorry, but I refuse to believe that the geniuses on this forum and in this community would be stumped by this. I know for a fact that there are some people willing to take on the challenge, and are already doing so.
.
.

*If this post seems to repeat a lot of the info previously posted in this thread, then that's because it probably does. This is just meant to be a post encapsuling all of the reasons and logic as to why I think that this puzzle is a viable event for a WCA competition. Feel free to agree or disagree. I want to spark discussion. That's why this thread is a thing.*


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## Wish Lin (Aug 28, 2019)

VIBE_ZT said:


> Very recently, there have been developments in Last 4 Corners algorithms


Thanks for the shoutout!


VIBE_ZT said:


> It is the kind of puzzle that definitely won't warrent any sort ridiculous lucky single


Surprisingly, the current non- jumbling UWR have a 4 move F2L+ Clover and 2 move LL(except L4C). This kind of lucky scrambles should gradually fade out after @whatshisbucket 's scrambler is out.


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## Kit Clement (Aug 28, 2019)

Wish Lin said:


> Just curious, what makes you think the second puzzle in C tier better than anything in E tier?



Tried out someone's 3D printed version of the face turning octahedron, he was showing me methods that he had worked on for the puzzle and it seemed like it would be an interesting, non-trivial puzzle to add that's very different from existing events.


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## Wish Lin (Aug 28, 2019)

Kit Clement said:


> Tried out someone's 3D printed version of the face turning octahedron, he was showing me methods that he had worked on for the puzzle and it seemed like it would be an interesting, non-trivial puzzle to add that's very different from existing events.


Oh I see. Thank you!


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## Wish Lin (Aug 28, 2019)

Dr. Lube said:


> Curvy copter is in the 'trash' tier? Ouch...


I see why it is there now. Although I really like curvy copter and oraganized it’s 2-look L4C algorithms recently, but it still has many problems IMO including notation/scrambler not yet standardized, it’s cube cover will be hard to design, popularity, hardware, not so good methods....... and so on.

So as for now, considering how hard and strict being a WCA event is, it’s odds of being a WCA event is LITERALLY TRASH now.That’s what me and many others here try to change.


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## Kit Clement (Aug 28, 2019)

Dr. Lube said:


> Curvy copter is in the 'trash' tier? Ouch...



Was debating just throwing everything into F tier but I figured I'd be marginally constructive.


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## Wish Lin (Aug 28, 2019)

Kit Clement said:


> Was debating just throwing everything into F tier but I figured I'd be marginally constructive.


So do you think as for now no events should be added?


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## Fukuoka Kengo James (Aug 28, 2019)

Wish Lin said:


> So do you think as for now no events should be added?


Master Pyraminx and kilominx/kibiminx should be added to the WCA events.


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## Kit Clement (Aug 28, 2019)

Wish Lin said:


> So do you think as for now no events should be added?



After seeing great support for Skewb pre-2014 only for the event to become disliked by many (even some of those who originally supported it), I'd really like to see consistent support and development through holding events unofficially at comps before truly considering them as potential official events.


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## aerocube (Aug 28, 2019)

whatshisbucket said:


> You guys are kidding right? No one averages less than 24 or 17 on those puzzles respectively; saying the best people take [UWR single time] isn't very fair. Both puzzles are sufficiently complicated and have enough pieces that averages would never be based primarily on luck.


i'm worried that for master pyraminx people could find a method that trivializes it
i think kilominx is a good event though,and would be a nice one to add if another event is ever removed


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## Fukuoka Kengo James (Aug 28, 2019)

Fukuoka Kengo James said:


> the best people at master pyraminx take less than 13 seconds, while the best people at kilominx/kibiminx takes less than 11 seconds.





aerocube said:


> i'm worried that for master pyraminx people could find a method that trivializes it
> i think kilominx is a good event though,and would be a nice one to add if another event is ever removed


Current UWR takes longer to solve a master pyraminx than a kilominx/kibiminx. Also, it is good to see developments on solving methods.


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## Iwannaganx (Aug 28, 2019)

Fukuoka Kengo James said:


> Current UWR takes longer to solve a master pyraminx than a kilominx/kibiminx. Also, it is good to see developments on solving methods.


Quick note, I have never solved either of these puzzles.
But I feel the master pyraminx looks harder than the kilominx. Just my thoughts, from literally just looking at both these puzzles. Just thinking, a 4x4 version of a pyraminx would be harder than a 2x2 version on a megamix.


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## GAN 356 X (Aug 28, 2019)

Fukuoka Kengo James said:


> Current UWR takes longer to solve a master pyraminx than a kilominx/kibiminx. Also, it is good to see developments on solving methods.


kilo minx is really fun and fast to do. the main thing that keeps me back is how bad the hardware is


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## Fukuoka Kengo James (Aug 28, 2019)

Iwannaganx said:


> Quick note, I have never solved either of these puzzles.
> But I feel the master pyraminx looks harder than the kilominx. Just my thoughts, from literally just looking at both these puzzles. Just thinking, a 4x4 version of a pyraminx would be harder than a 2x2 version on a megamix.





GAN 356 X said:


> kilo minx is really fun and fast to do. the main thing that keeps me back is how bad the hardware is


Master pyraminx has good hardware already. QiYi and Sheng Shou have made good turning master pyraminxes.


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## GAN 356 X (Aug 28, 2019)

Fukuoka Kengo James said:


> Current UWR takes longer to solve a master pyraminx than a kilominx/kibiminx. Also, it is good to see developments on solving methods.


3 minutes average on kilominx for me


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## xyzzy (Aug 28, 2019)

GAN 356 X said:


> kilo minx is really fun and fast to do. the main thing that keeps me back is how bad the hardware is


1. take a megaminx
2. remove stickers/caps on all edges and centres
3. get best kilominx

I kinda want to get two Galaxy v2 Ms to make a magnetic stickerless kilominx but spending $60 for a novelty puzzle I'd barely solve is _maybe_ a bit too much, lol.


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## Fukuoka Kengo James (Aug 28, 2019)

GAN 356 X said:


> kilo minx is really fun and fast to do. the main thing that keeps me back is how bad the hardware is


I have heard that the meilong kibiminx is not that great. Sheng Shou kilominx is still the best right now.
I hope there will be a magnetic kilominx/kibiminx.


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## aerocube (Aug 28, 2019)

Fukuoka Kengo James said:


> I have heard that the meilong kibiminx is not that great. Sheng Shou kilominx is still the best right now.
> I hope there will be a magnetic kilominx/kibiminx.


haven't some people self-magnetised a shengshou kilominx?


----------



## VIBE_ZT (Aug 28, 2019)

Fukuoka Kengo James said:


> Any pictures or videos?


I tried, but the magnets I used were wayyyy too weak to even be felt, let alone be useful.

Here is my post on it


----------



## Competition Cuber (Aug 28, 2019)

Fukuoka Kengo James said:


> Master Pyraminx and kilominx/kibiminx should be added to the WCA events.


If master pyra is added, I would be ok with that, but probably wouldn’t compete in it.

However, I’d disagree with kibiminx. It would qhickly become trivial and luck based and it also doesn’t really add anything new to the wca. Im all for curvy copter though, hsving an edge turning puzzle in the WCA would be pretty cool.


----------



## xyzzy (Aug 28, 2019)

Competition Cuber said:


> However, I’d disagree with kibiminx. It would qhickly become trivial and luck based


Please justify this statement. Why would it become "trivial" or "luck-based"?


----------



## Fukuoka Kengo James (Aug 28, 2019)

aerocube said:


> i'm worried that for master pyraminx people could find a method that trivializes it
> i think kilominx is a good event though,and would be a nice one to add if another event is ever removed





Competition Cuber said:


> If master pyra is added, I would be ok with that, but probably wouldn’t compete in it.
> 
> However, I’d disagree with kibiminx. It would qhickly become trivial and luck based and it also doesn’t really add anything new to the wca. Im all for curvy copter though, hsving an edge turning puzzle in the WCA would be pretty cool.





xyzzy said:


> Please justify this statement. Why would it become "trivial" or "luck-based"?


If you say master pyraminx is trivial, pyraminx is even more trivial, but I don't think pyraminx should be removed from the WCA. It is fine to add master pyraminx to the WCA. If you say kilominx/kibiminx is trivial, 2x2 is even more trivial, but I don't think 2x2 should be removed from the WCA. It is fine to add kilominx/kibiminx to the WCA. I don't think puzzles being trivial is an issue.


----------



## DesertWolf (Aug 28, 2019)

Ok so i'm gonna throw in my opinion cause why not... I personally feel that the 18 events we had were fine and that there was no need for change but after a bit i've come to accept the removal of feet being some of the benefits during major competitions and having achieved what i wanted to with it. 
Now for adding events, I'm completely against adding any event where the current UWR is sub-30 even sub-50 for the matter the reason is usually that the event has been strongly developed and is already reaching levels where it basically be skewb all over again (not as much for the times but more the fact that the only change the event had was hardware no new methods discovered etc...) or it can also mean that said event is extremely trivial and basically become an immediate 2x2 as soon as it's added. On the other hand i feel also extension of events like 8x8/9x9 6x6 BLD etc shouldn't be added as down the line its use in the WCA would be questioned and they'd add nothing to the WCA as a whole. For me personally i never really cared about the curvy copter but after reading more about these puzzles i feel out of the existent ones alongside maybe the time machine or those sorts of cubes they'd be the only ones i wouldn't mind being added. This said i personally feel that if we were to add an event it have to be something new different still with a similar basis (it being a twisty puzzle) but different mechanics that maybe outside a beginners method nothing else has been found and that'd create a great push for development and basically reward people that have been working on them a lot (theory wise) by them basically being faster than the rest. Obviously with the passage of time people would learn these methods and catch up and the event would eventually stale like other current events but if it were to have this nature that be a lot more time than say Kilominx which it'd basically stale 1 year after it being added if not less.


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## aerocube (Aug 28, 2019)

Fukuoka Kengo James said:


> If you say master pyraminx is trivial, pyraminx is even more trivial, but I don't think pyraminx should be removed from the WCA. It is fine to add master pyraminx to the WCA. If you say kilominx/kibiminx is trivial, 2x2 is even more trivial, but I don't think 2x2 should be removed from the WCA. It is fine to add kilominx/kibiminx to the WCA. I don't think puzzles being trivial is an issue.


i am ok with the 3 trivial events that already exist
the reason i worry about events with already short UWRs is that i don't think we need any more quick event
kilominx would work well though,i don't know what it's better to be good at,mega or 2x2


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## Fukuoka Kengo James (Aug 28, 2019)

aerocube said:


> i am ok with the 3 trivial events that already exist
> the reason i worry about events with already short UWRs is that i don't think we need any more quick event
> kilominx would work well though,i don't know what it's better to be good at,mega or 2x2


What about master pyraminx? There are good hardware already. At least it is not as trivial as a pyraminx. The current UWR of master pyraminx is even longer than kilominx/kibiminx. If kilominx/kibiminx would work, master pyraminx would also work.


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## Wish Lin (Aug 28, 2019)

Fukuoka Kengo James said:


> What about master pyraminx? There are good hardware already. At least it is not as trivial as a pyraminx. The current UWR of master pyraminx is even longer than kilominx/kibiminx. If kilominx/kibiminx would work, master pyraminx would also work.


The reason these events have to be thought very, very carefully before adding has been explained by Kit Clement in his post above.


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## xyzzy (Aug 28, 2019)

DesertWolf said:


> (not as much for the times but more the fact that the only change the event had was hardware no new methods discovered etc...)


I kinda agree with this in principle, but this also seems to already be true for most, if not all, of the current WCA events. FMC is the only one that seems to have had an actual paradigm shift (domino reduction!) in the past two years, while everything else is the same old methods, but done better than before.

---

(Unrelated to above reply.) Some thoughts regarding master pyraminx:

Pros:
- it's not a super long event that will seriously impact competition schedules (compared to e.g. FMC, 5BLD, 777)
- scrambles aren't very long (22-ish moves with my two-phase scrambler)
- easy to learn
- not "trivial" (as in, it's almost never 1-lookable, short of tracing cycles)

Cons:
- almost everyone is using the same method (reduction); very little method development so far and possibly very little _room for_ method development (contrast skewb's gigantic list of methods)
- arguably not long enough; it seems that the fastest people are sub-20 already
- doesn't seem to have a lot of community interest


----------



## PapaSmurf (Aug 28, 2019)

I'm gonna go through each event and speak my mind. I haven't read the past 7 pages, but from what I can tell everyone has got to the same point of any new event will be hard for comps and they're quite niche.
Curvy copter: It would be super unique as it is edge turning, jumbles and so far is super underdeveloped. If a random state scrambler is made and there was somehow spare time at a comp, it would be a great addition. 
Team blind: It's really fun but really hard to regulate and probably wouldn't work super well, which is a shame because I enjoy it. It would also be very loud. 
2x2 OH: Lol why?
Double 3x3 OH: Lol why?
Kilominx: It fills in the gap between 15 and 30 seconds and is a lot more accessible than 3bld. A lot of people have them and the hardware is already alright. There's a lot more room for method improvement than compared to skewb and is really fun. It also has a random state scrambler and support. 
Ghost cube: 3x3 shape mod. Enough said. 
Mirror cube: See: Ghost cube.
Redi cube and mosaic cube: Firstly, redi is super repetitive, already developed and not unique. It's a pyraminx/skewb turned into a cube and imo skewb is the worst event. Please no redi cube ever. Mosaic cube, don't know a lot about it, but it looks like a slightly more complicated redi cube. So no. 
Master Kilominx: No for the same reason as 8x8 or anything else large. Too big and too much time in an already cramped schedule. Also, scrambling will be an big issue. 
Gear cube: Why? Already has fast times and no community momentum. 

On the practical element: we do need to remove events to allow for new ones. As time is a big issue, I think that 7x7 is a good one to remove due to pretty much everyone (bar the best) taking a long time, therefore making the rounds too long. I'd also therefore be a fan of removing 6x6 as it's just 6x6 (or even remove 6x6 and keep 7x7), but that's more just because of my dislike of 6x6. I'd also be a fan of removing skewb because it's redundant as it's the third trivial event with the least claim (as it's not a face turning platonic solid and it's not in the "cube line"). That would allow time for something like Kilominx. I'm a fan of feet as it's very unique and I also think that clock should stay for the same reason. The rest of the events also work and I think they should all stay. 

TL;dr
Curvy copter and kilominx are the most viable. Remove 7x7 and skewb.


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## Fukuoka Kengo James (Aug 28, 2019)

PapaSmurf said:


> I'm gonna go through each event and speak my mind. I haven't read the past 7 pages, but from what I can tell everyone has got to the same point of any new event will be hard for comps and they're quite niche.
> Curvy copter: It would be super unique as it is edge turning, jumbles and so far is super underdeveloped. If a random state scrambler is made and there was somehow spare time at a comp, it would be a great addition.
> Team blind: It's really fun but really hard to regulate and probably wouldn't work super well, which is a shame because I enjoy it. It would also be very loud.
> 2x2 OH: Lol why?
> ...


What about master pyraminx? Do you think that it is feasible?


----------



## ImmolatedMarmoset (Aug 28, 2019)

PapaSmurf said:


> I'm gonna go through each event and speak my mind. I haven't read the past 7 pages, but from what I can tell everyone has got to the same point of any new event will be hard for comps and they're quite niche.
> Curvy copter: It would be super unique as it is edge turning, jumbles and so far is super underdeveloped. If a random state scrambler is made and there was somehow spare time at a comp, it would be a great addition.
> Team blind: It's really fun but really hard to regulate and probably wouldn't work super well, which is a shame because I enjoy it. It would also be very loud.
> 2x2 OH: Lol why?
> ...


Finally someone not good at clock protecting it lol


----------



## Fukuoka Kengo James (Aug 28, 2019)

PapaSmurf said:


> I'm gonna go through each event and speak my mind. I haven't read the past 7 pages, but from what I can tell everyone has got to the same point of any new event will be hard for comps and they're quite niche.
> Curvy copter: It would be super unique as it is edge turning, jumbles and so far is super underdeveloped. If a random state scrambler is made and there was somehow spare time at a comp, it would be a great addition.
> Team blind: It's really fun but really hard to regulate and probably wouldn't work super well, which is a shame because I enjoy it. It would also be very loud.
> 2x2 OH: Lol why?
> ...





ImmolatedMarmoset said:


> Finally someone not good at clock protecting it lol


Why clock should stay? Do you think a person who can only speed solve a clock out of all WCA events is a cuber?


----------



## aerocube (Aug 28, 2019)

PapaSmurf said:


> I'm gonna go through each event and speak my mind. I haven't read the past 7 pages, but from what I can tell everyone has got to the same point of any new event will be hard for comps and they're quite niche.
> Curvy copter: It would be super unique as it is edge turning, jumbles and so far is super underdeveloped. If a random state scrambler is made and there was somehow spare time at a comp, it would be a great addition.
> Team blind: It's really fun but really hard to regulate and probably wouldn't work super well, which is a shame because I enjoy it. It would also be very loud.
> 2x2 OH: Lol why?
> ...


7x7 makes sense as it's a large odd numbered cube,and is the odd-number version of 6x6 in a way
skewb seems dead now, so i guess it would make sense to remove it but the uniqueness of sledges makes it a different event kinda


----------



## GAN 356 X (Aug 28, 2019)

The fangshi skewby copter is out now....


----------



## DesertWolf (Aug 28, 2019)

xyzzy said:


> I kinda agree with this in principle, but this also seems to already be true for most, if not all, of the current WCA events. FMC is the only one that seems to have had an actual paradigm shift (domino reduction!) in the past two years, while everything else is the same old methods, but done better than before.


Yes, but the principle is meant for when an event is introduced. Excluding Skewb, all events had a phase where development was still happening when put it. Even 3x3 could have the argument that it hasn't staled yet (although we can say compared to others it has plateau'd) with the work being put into Roux and other methods. 4x4 although now it may seem like it's just the one method with the one style of edge pairing, etc... But it wasn't for a while that YAU became popular and 3-2-3 edge pairing only really became a thing in like 2011 That might seem like a long time ago but this was 8 years after WC 2003. The reason most events now have no evolution is cause they've been around for a really long time.


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## ImmolatedMarmoset (Aug 28, 2019)

Fukuoka Kengo James said:


> Why clock should stay? Do you think a person who can only speed solve a clock out of all WCA events is a cuber?


Yes. Because it is an official event in the World *cube *association, I think it sufficiently qualifies as a cubic puzzle. And. If you listen to dlsone, you might know that DG was at one point teaching his father clock first because it was difficult for him to understand the other events, and I believe he used it as a stepping stone.

However, this is my main argument that I haven’t seen used yet: clock is already here, people have already put time into it, and there aren’t any structural issues with the event (I.e., it can easily be judged, unlike magic), so why remove it? If you are going to remove it, you should have done it 10 years ago when it wouldn’t have made as much of an impact (and yes, I am aware that rubik’s did have more of an influence back then and it was a rubiks puzzle, but to my knowledge it wasn’t produced by rubik’s even then).


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## CarterK (Aug 28, 2019)

aerocube said:


> skewb seems dead now



I find this quite funny personally


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## Fukuoka Kengo James (Aug 29, 2019)

PapaSmurf said:


> I'm gonna go through each event and speak my mind. I haven't read the past 7 pages, but from what I can tell everyone has got to the same point of any new event will be hard for comps and they're quite niche.
> Curvy copter: It would be super unique as it is edge turning, jumbles and so far is super underdeveloped. If a random state scrambler is made and there was somehow spare time at a comp, it would be a great addition.
> Team blind: It's really fun but really hard to regulate and probably wouldn't work super well, which is a shame because I enjoy it. It would also be very loud.
> 2x2 OH: Lol why?
> ...





ImmolatedMarmoset said:


> Yes. Because it is an official event in the World *cube *association, I think it sufficiently qualifies as a cubic puzzle. And. If you listen to dlsone, you might know that DG was at one point teaching his father clock first because it was difficult for him to understand the other events, and I believe he used it as a stepping stone.
> 
> However, this is my main argument that I haven’t seen used yet: clock is already here, people have already put time into it, and there aren’t any structural issues with the event (I.e., it can easily be judged, unlike magic), so why remove it? If you are going to remove it, you should have done it 10 years ago when it wouldn’t have made as much of an impact (and yes, I am aware that rubik’s did have more of an influence back then and it was a rubiks puzzle, but to my knowledge it wasn’t produced by rubik’s even then).


Then none of the events should be removed, since there are cubers devoted in each of the WCA events.


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## GAN 356 X (Aug 29, 2019)

CarterK said:


> I find this quite funny personally


I bought an x-man Wingy and haven't touched it in like weeks...


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## aerocube (Aug 29, 2019)

i need to get into skewb,i have a pdf of sarah intermediate algs sitting there
it seems like a cool event,it's a shame the wr average hasn't been beaten in so long
also could anyone justify why we need a new event? i feel like the events we have now test pretty much every type of solving a cube


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## Fukuoka Kengo James (Aug 29, 2019)

aerocube said:


> haven't some people self-magnetised a shengshou kilominx?


Any tutorials on magnetizing a shengshou kilominx?


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## aerocube (Aug 29, 2019)

Fukuoka Kengo James said:


> Any tutorials on magnetizing a shengshou kilominx?


https://www.speedsolving.com/threads/trying-to-magnetize-a-kilominx.72333/ 
never mind it's actually going to be really hard to do


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## PapaSmurf (Aug 29, 2019)

The reason why the skewb wr hasn't been beaten for so long is because there's little to no room for development, in contrast to every event (even a little bit in clock). The only significant development is NS, which has had very little impact on the meta. At least 2x2 has things such as L5C and other alg sets which can push it to the limit. And that's the exact reason why we need a new event: a lot of them are becoming stale and people want something new (curvy copter ahem).


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## GAN 356 X (Aug 29, 2019)

PapaSmurf said:


> The reason why the skewb wr hasn't been beaten for so long is because there's little to no room for development, in contrast to every event (even a little bit in clock). The only significant development is NS, which has had very little impact on the meta. At least 2x2 has things such as L5C and other alg sets which can push it to the limit. And that's the exact reason why we need a new event: a lot of them are becoming stale and people want something new (curvy copter ahem).


One day that will happen with 3x3, where further developing methods is impossible and it will have to be removed. the same will happen to 2x2 evtually


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## PapaSmurf (Aug 30, 2019)

I doubt it a lot more with 3x3 than skewb. 3x3 has a lot of untapped potential and we will have many years of people improving the records.


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## GAN 356 X (Sep 15, 2019)

PapaSmurf said:


> I doubt it a lot more with 3x3 than skewb. 3x3 has a lot of untapped potential and we will have many years of people improving the records.


To what extent do you think records can go?


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## Iwannaganx (Sep 15, 2019)

GAN 356 X said:


> To what extent do you think records can go?


I think eventually we will be one-looking


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## GAN 356 X (Sep 15, 2019)

Iwannaganx said:


> I think eventually we will be one-looking


That would require high amounts of knowledge of the cube. Do you really think planning the while solution in 15 seconds is possible? It might be possible to plan out to the 3rd or 4th f2l, and then predict oll and pll. by then we will probably have heaps of new algorithms for special cases though


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## PapaSmurf (Sep 15, 2019)

Fukuoka Kengo James said:


> What about master pyraminx? Do you think that it is feasible?


I guess it would work, but I don't own one or know anything about it.


Fukuoka Kengo James said:


> Why clock should stay? Do you think a person who can only speed solve a clock out of all WCA events is a cuber?


Yes. A clock specialist, but a cuber.


GAN 356 X said:


> To what extent do you think records can go?


I dunno, but I see sub 5 global averages as a possibility eventually. That's gonna require a lot of optimisaion, but it's certainly doable. I also think that if a method with very good ergonomics and that averages sub 40 moves was found it'd help a lot.


----------



## Iwannaganx (Sep 15, 2019)

GAN 356 X said:


> That would require high amounts of knowledge of the cube. Do you really think planning the while solution in 15 seconds is possible? It might be possible to plan out to the 3rd or 4th f2l, and then predict oll and pll. by then we will probably have heaps of new algorithms for special cases though


Exactly. I think we can plan cross, all or most of F2L and then lookahead to oll/pll with no pauses. Not quite one looking, but still could easily get sub 3


----------



## GAN 356 X (Sep 15, 2019)

Iwannaganx said:


> Exactly. I think we can plan cross, all or most of F2L and then lookahead to oll/pll with no pauses. Not quite one looking, but still could easily get sub 3


Easily? I would think sub-5 wr average


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## PapaSmurf (Sep 15, 2019)

If you look at the limits of CFOP, it's around 4.2 seconds so I don't see any sub 4 averages happening because people won't reach that level of optimisation. You need to find a method that has a limit sub 3.8 to persuade me that sub 4 is possible.


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## Iwannaganx (Sep 15, 2019)

GAN 356 X said:


> Easily? I would think sub-4 wr average


I meant single


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## Fukuoka Kengo James (Sep 15, 2019)

Iwannaganx said:


> I think eventually we will be one-looking


Then we will not need 1 hour for FMC.


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## GAN 356 X (Sep 15, 2019)

Fukuoka Kengo James said:


> Then we will not need 1 hour for FMC.


one looking does seem a bit of a stretch. especially in 15 SECONDS!


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## Iwannaganx (Sep 15, 2019)

Fukuoka Kengo James said:


> Then we will not need 1 hour for FMC.


I did say eventually. I don't think it will be in my lifetime, or anytime soon. But if people do one look, the algs might be long. But yes not one hour probs


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## GAN 356 X (Sep 15, 2019)

Iwannaganx said:


> I did say eventually. I don't think it will be in my lifetime, or anytime soon. But if people do one look, the algs might be long. But yes not one hour probs


Which means FMC will have to be removed?


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## GAN 356 X (Sep 15, 2019)

PapaSmurf said:


> If you look at the limits of CFOP, it's around 4.2 seconds so I don't see any sub 4 averages happening because people won't reach that level of optimisation. You need to find a method that has a limit sub 3.8 to persuade me that sub 4 is possible.


Wait, how do you work out the limits on a method?


----------



## Iwannaganx (Sep 15, 2019)

GAN 356 X said:


> Which means FMC will have to be removed?


Probs


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## Kit Clement (Sep 15, 2019)

TIL that seeing a 3rd or 4th pair within 15 seconds in a CFOP solve is relevant for FMC.


----------



## Hazel (Sep 15, 2019)

GAN 356 X said:


> Which means FMC will have to be removed?


Being able to one-look solves doesn't equal FMC changing much. If I'm able to one-look a 35-move solve, that isn't super helpful for FMC. In addition, FMC relies a LOT on trial-and-error, something that isn't applicable in speedsolving.


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## PapaSmurf (Sep 16, 2019)

GAN 356 X said:


> Wait, how do you work out the limits on a method?


You look at the movecount, give it a theoretical tps for each step and boom. It's not an exact science but it gives a rough idea.


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## CarterK (Sep 16, 2019)

GAN 356 X said:


> I bought an x-man Wingy and haven't touched it in like weeks...


Cool...?



PapaSmurf said:


> If you look at the limits of CFOP, it's around 4.2 seconds so I don't see any sub 4 averages happening because people won't reach that level of optimisation. You need to find a method that has a limit sub 3.8 to persuade me that sub 4 is possible.



Ok couple things here. Limit doesn't mean averages can't be below that, that's just a limit for global. Even now sub 3 singles are possible. I don't see how sub 4 averages just aren't gonna happen.




Fukuoka Kengo James said:


> Then we will not need 1 hour for FMC.


I too look for a fingertricky solution using a speedsolving method for FMC...


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## Tabe (Sep 17, 2019)

CarterK said:


> Ok couple things here. Limit doesn't mean averages can't be below that, that's just a limit for global. Even now sub 3 singles are possible. I don't see how sub 4 averages just aren't gonna happen.


Yeah, Sameer has a 2.78 or something and several other people have sub-4s at home. Eventually somebody will get the right combination of scrambled and get a sub-4.


----------



## Kit Clement (Sep 17, 2019)

CarterK said:


> I too look for a fingertricky solution using a speedsolving method for FMC...



Meanwhile, I look for unfingertricky starts using blockbuilding for 3x3x3 speedsolves.


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## GAN 356 X (Oct 11, 2019)

Tabe said:


> eah, Sameer has a 2.78 or something and several other people have sub-4s at home.


Predictions: who do you think will get the next world record single?


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## AbsoRuud (Oct 11, 2019)

Tanzer Balimtas is fairly sure only 4 people have sub 3s at home. Max, Feliks, Patrick and Namh. 

That said, out of those four, I think Patrick and Namh are most likely to get the new WR. But it could be anybody with a lucky scramble and a lucky solve.


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## Iwannaganx (Oct 11, 2019)

AbsoRuud said:


> Tanzer Balimtas is fairly sure only 4 people have sub 3s at home. Max, Feliks, Patrick and Namh.
> 
> That said, out of those four, I think Patrick and Namh are most likely to get the new WR. But it could be anybody with a lucky scramble and a lucky solve.


It will be max park, Feliks uses CFP now and max will be like stuff you imma use CF.


----------



## GAN 356 X (Nov 3, 2019)

At this comp in QLD Australia, they're doing team blind and mirror cube as trial events





__





Northside Cube Days 2020 | World Cube Association


The World Cube Association governs competitions for mechanical puzzles that are operated by twisting groups of pieces, commonly known as 'twisty puzzles'. The most famous of these puzzles is the Rubik's Cube, invented by professor Rubik from Hungary. A selection of these puzzles are chosen as...




www.worldcubeassociation.org


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## Underwatercuber (Nov 3, 2019)

Aerma said:


> @Kit Clement is there currently any discussion amongst WCA members like yourself in removing Clock as an official event? Assuming you can disclose that information to the public..











Reasons to remove or keep clock as an event · Issue #848 · thewca/wca-regulations


Here is a list of pros and cons for what happens if clock is removed as an event Positive outcomes of removing Clock Clocks easily fall over or have their pin state messed up in transit so clocks b...




github.com


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## Zeke Mackay (Nov 23, 2019)

New event idea:

Pyraminx but you put a screw in it and you have to keep the screw inside the pyra and solve it


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## GAN 356 X (Nov 23, 2019)

Zeke Mackay said:


> New event idea:
> 
> Pyraminx but you put a screw in it and you have to keep the screw inside the pyra and solve it


LOL


----------



## ProStar (Nov 23, 2019)

I want a BLD event where a mirror cube and 3x3 are scrambled identically, memo is done on the mirror cube, and solve is done on 3x3.


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## PapaSmurf (Nov 24, 2019)

I don't. That's a bad idea for an event.


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## GAN 356 X (Nov 24, 2019)

PapaSmurf said:


> I don't. That's a bad idea for an event.


I tend agree, but it would be interesting


----------



## One Wheel (Nov 24, 2019)

DarkSavage said:


> I want a BLD event where a mirror cube and 3x3 are scrambled identically, memo is done on the mirror cube, and solve is done on 3x3.


A mirror cube would be confusing, but I think two different cubes, one with standard colors and the other with both colors and a different dot/shape pattern on each side would be very reasonable.


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## fortissim2 (Nov 24, 2019)

Two things:
1. Good luck on finding a notation system for the curvy copter.
2. How would you decide partners for Team Blind?

Other than that, I think that kibiminx has great potential for a new WCA event.


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## Mike Hughey (Nov 24, 2019)

fortissim2 said:


> 1. Good luck on finding a notation system for the curvy copter.


Not only has this been done, but a random-state jumbling scrambler has in fact already been written for it using that notation.








SALOW Notation for Curvy Copter.


If we agree to disagree, would you be fine with making two scramblers with the two different notations and let others decide? Yeah I'll post scrambles tomorrow in both formats and see what y'all like.




www.speedsolving.com





It might not be particularly good to read, and might prove to be impractical for competitions, but at least it exists. And in my opinion it is at least much better than the original megaminx notation, so hey, we're off to a good start.


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## icarneiro (Nov 25, 2019)

What about an event that you need to scramble your cube to be exatcly another that are scrambled?


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## Hazel (Nov 25, 2019)

icarneiro said:


> What about an event that you need to scramble your cube to be exatcly another that are scrambled?


Thing is, that's just solving it but into a different state. Once people get used to it, it would just be 3x3 with slightly less inspection time.


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## GenTheThief (Nov 25, 2019)

icarneiro said:


> What about an event that you need to scramble your cube to be exatcly another that are scrambled?


This is called match the scramble and it is dominated by reverse blind solving. I think they had it at the Red Bull cubing championships and it's also an event in the weekly competition.


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## Zeke Mackay (Dec 28, 2019)

A few weeks bump oops, but I think I have good criteria for good new events.
1) Good length, between 5 and 60 seconds. 
2) Distinct from other events, rather than being a shape mod, different sizes, or different ways of solving an existing event.

Team blind is a different way of solving 3x3
2x2 oh is a different way of solving 2x2
2 3x3s or double oh are different ways of 3x3
kilominx is a different sized megaminx
ghost cube and mirror cube are shape mods
master kilominx is a different sized megaminx
Mosaic cube is too long, not having a sub 1 ao5

This leaves Curvy Copter, Redi Cube, which may be slightly too short and luck dependent, and Gear cube, which I would change to a gear ball or larger gear cube.


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## Mike Hughey (Dec 28, 2019)

Zeke Mackay said:


> 1) Good length, between 5 and 60 seconds.


Different people certainly have different opinions as to what a "good length" is. Mine would certainly be longer, especially on the short end. I suppose 5 seconds is barely okay for a world record single.

Mosaic cube seems like a pretty ideal-length event, in my personal opinion. But I realize other people do prefer shorter events.


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## GAN 356 X (Dec 28, 2019)

Zeke Mackay said:


> A few weeks bump oops, but I think I have good criteria for good new events.
> 1) Good length, between 5 and 60 seconds.
> 2) Distinct from other events, rather than being a shape mod, different sizes, or different ways of solving an existing event.
> 
> ...


I still personally believe that kilominx and master pyraminx are the coolest ideas. They are both pretty quick events, and have decent hardware already. A lot of new innovation would come out if they were excepted as events, and they do seem to be the two cubes with the most following. 3x3 has larger/smaller versions of it self, so why can't megaminx and pyraminx? Furtheromre, both events are short enough to be quick, and long enough to be non-trivial. Perfect imo.

I also think curvy copter is a cool idea, because of its uniqueness.
Now is also the time to add and event seeing as feet has been removed. Or should the events stay at 17? I dunno honestly

Edit: as Mike Hughey said, the preferred length fo events varies between people. I myself tend to pa=ratcie events between the 10 secs to 3 minute range, however, I still do 6x6 and 7x7 quite a bit


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## GenTheThief (Dec 30, 2019)

I think that the new event added to the WCA should be Feet.

Feet should be added back into the WCA after it's short and unwarranted hiatus during 2020.


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## qwr (Jan 1, 2020)

Not every WCA event needs to be at every competition, so they need not be so conservative with events.


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## H perm (Jan 1, 2020)

Personally, while I like most of these proposals, I think the most realistic cubes to be admitted into the WCA would be larger size variants of existing side puzzles, like the master pyraminx (If you make an updated poll, the master pyraminx should be an option in my opinion) and the master kilominx. Both have good hardware and are manufactured by reputable brands like Qiyi and Shengshou.


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## GAN 356 X (Jan 1, 2020)

Added master pyraminx


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## DerpBoiMoon (Jan 21, 2020)

team bld cause you just need 3x3 and someone else and well the other cubes aren't that great in terms of hardware


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## Shaun Mack (Jan 21, 2020)

add feet


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## GAN 356 X (Jan 21, 2020)

Shaun Mack said:


> add feet


Added.


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## Pyjam (Jan 21, 2020)

Feet is a cube?


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## GAN 356 X (Jan 21, 2020)

Pyjam said:


> Feet is a cube?


Well it is now


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## GAN 356 X (Jan 21, 2020)

Going back some of my possible answers were very stupid. Ghost cube and double OH? Wtf?


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## MJS Cubing (Jan 22, 2020)

Maybe they should add some cuboids, like 2x2x3. I would definitely compete in that.


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## One Wheel (Jan 22, 2020)

Currently only 3x3 With Feet and 4x4 With Feet should be added. Eventually maybe Curvy Copter and Full Blind (memorize on a textured cube, solve on a non-textured cube).


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## Pyjam (Jan 22, 2020)

I tell you: clock with feet is the next big thing.


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## One Wheel (Jan 22, 2020)

Pyjam said:


> I tell you: clock with feet is the next big thing.


I’ve tried it. 3x3 and 4x4 With Feet are excellent events, Clock With Feet is a nightmare because of pins.


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## Pyjam (Jan 22, 2020)

Yes, it's challenging.


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## ProStar (Jan 22, 2020)

One Wheel said:


> Currently only 3x3 With Feet and 4x4 With Feet should be added. Eventually maybe Curvy Copter and Full Blind (memorize on a textured cube, solve on a non-textured cube).



Honestly, please be quiet about feet. It's not getting added for a while, if ever. It just got removed. You can practice it if you want(obviously), but please be quiet about adding feet. It's not happening, and it's getting annoying.


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## One Wheel (Jan 22, 2020)

ProStar said:


> Honestly, please be quiet about feet. It's not getting added for a while, if ever. It just got removed. You can practice it if you want(obviously), but please be quiet about adding feet. It's not happening, and it's getting annoying.


If you don’t like Feet, don’t worry about it. 2x2, pyraminx, and skewb annoy me, but I don’t worry about people talking about them.


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## ProStar (Jan 22, 2020)

One Wheel said:


> If you don’t like Feet, don’t worry about it. 2x2, pyraminx, and skewb annoy me, but I don’t worry about people talking about them.



2x2, pyra, and skewb are all official events. Feet isn't. Would you like it if in every post I said "Magic and Master Magic are the best! Add them back!"?


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## One Wheel (Jan 22, 2020)

ProStar said:


> 2x2, pyra, and skewb are all official events. Feet isn't. Would you like it if in every post I said "Magic and Master Magic are the best! Add them back!"?


I don’t care about Magic and Master Magic. There were good reasons for removing them, though, and there weren’t good reasons for removing Feet. If you want to advocate adding them back I’m not going to agree with you, but you do you.


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## ProStar (Jan 22, 2020)

One Wheel said:


> I don’t care about Magic and Master Magic. There were good reasons for removing them, though, and there weren’t good reasons for removing Feet. If you want to advocate adding them back I’m not going to agree with you, but you do you.



Good reason: Majority of people didn't compete in it
Good reason #2: Most comps didn't hold it
Good reason #3: Scramblers hate it
Good reason #4: Many non-cubers think it's strange
Good reason #5: Most people believe it is more disgusting than with hands

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Reason for not removing feet: People have practiced it a bunch and we're removing one of their favorite events


People liked magic and master magic, and there were people who practiced it a bunch. That didn't stop the WCA from removing them.



One Wheel said:


> I don’t care about Magic and Master Magic.



Feet is in the same situation as magic and master magic. That's why I brought it up.


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## One Wheel (Jan 22, 2020)

ProStar said:


> Good reason: Majority of people didn't compete in it
> Good reason #2: Most comps didn't hold it
> Good reason #3: Scramblers hate it
> Good reason #4: Many non-cubers think it's strange
> ...


If you want to have this argument here, it’s no skin off my nose although these posts will likely be moved to the “Feet is unofficial” thread. 

#1 most people don’t even solve Rubik’s cubes, let alone compete in any given WCA event. 

#2 So? Most comps don’t hold most events. This is not a problem. 

#3 depends on the scramblers, but not in my experience. 

#4 non-cubers think cubing is strange, when I’ve talked to non-cubers about cubing they’ve actually generally had a more favorable impression of Feet than of cubing I’m general.

#5 irrelevant, and I’m not even convinced it’s true. Whether people believe it or not, it’s actually objectively not more disgusting than hands. 

Magic and Master Magic were removed because there was not a consistent system for scrambling and judging.


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## ProStar (Jan 22, 2020)

One Wheel said:


> If you want to have this argument here, it’s no skin off my nose although these posts will likely be moved to the “Feet is unofficial” thread.
> 
> #1 most people don’t even solve Rubik’s cubes, let alone compete in any given WCA event.
> 
> ...



#1: I meant most cubers

#2: But if you look at the percentage of comps that hold an event, feet had wayyy less than all of them, even something like 5bld

#3: I've heard countless stories of people complaining about scrambling for feet

#4: Out of the last 10 people I've talked to about it, all thought it was kind of cool that I could solve a Rubik's cube, 7 thought that feet was weird, and 3 thought feet was weird and disgusting

#5: No one cares about whether or not it is *objectively* more disgusting, the point is that people *believe* feet are more disgusting.


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## cubeshepherd (Jan 22, 2020)

ProStar said:


> Good reason: Majority of people didn't compete in it
> Good reason #2: Most comps didn't hold it
> Good reason #3: Scramblers hate it
> Good reason #4: Many non-cubers think it's strange
> ...





One Wheel said:


> If you want to have this argument here, it’s no skin off my nose although these posts will likely be moved to the “Feet is unofficial” thread.
> 
> #1 most people don’t even solve Rubik’s cubes, let alone compete in any given WCA event.
> 
> ...


With all due respect to the both of you, is there anyway you can more your (debates, arguments, or whatever you want to call it to a PM). Everything that you both keep saying has already been said many, many times by other people and even you. Do you really think that it is going to change someone's views or get the WCA to ad it back in right away?

I am all for having a civil debate on official events versus unofficial events, and that is the point of certain threads, but having petty talks about one events that some people like and some not so much, I find to be very silly and childlike. Everyone that competes in WCA competitions knows that Feet is no longer an official event, even if some people were very annoyed with that decision (One Wheel) or some were happy with it (ProStar as it seems) there is no need to argue consistently about the same thing.

The only real reason I am posting this here, is because I keep getting notified about a new post in this thread, which I keep hoping with be something useful about the title of this thread, only to have to read yet another silly post about Feet (or the lack there of). And I am sure I am not the only one thinking this. I have not said anything about it, in hopes that people would stop annoying One Wheel with saying it is good that feet is now unofficial, and that One Wheel, would stop responding (in what seems/come off as rude) responses to the posts people make about feet.

We all know by this point where most people here (those that are regulars and out-spoken) where each stands with the decision of feet being removed, so for the sake of sanity (not talking about feet here) can we just stop the repetitive debate about one event? And if you so feel the need to get at someone your point (for the 100th time) just do so in a PM, and keep the threads out of this, especially since everyone that has said something about feet previously, is most likely no longer going to saying much more (if anything) since they are smart enough by this point to realize that they are not going to change someone else's mind on this matter.


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## ProStar (Jan 22, 2020)

cubeshepherd said:


> or get the WCA to ad it back in right away?



That's literally my point



cubeshepherd said:


> some were happy with it (ProStar as it seems)



I honestly didn't care on way or another about feet, I just want people to be quiet now that it's gone for sure




cubeshepherd said:


> The only real reason I am posting this here, is because I keep getting notified about a new post in this thread, which I keep hoping with be something useful about the title of this thread, only to have to read yet another silly post about Feet (or the lack there of).



That's why I said this:



ProStar said:


> Honestly, please be quiet about feet


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## GAN 356 X (Jan 22, 2020)

MJS Cubing said:


> Maybe they should add some cuboids, like 2x2x3. I would definitely compete in that.


I normally compete in every event I can solve, so theres a chance I would compete


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## Mike Hughey (Jan 22, 2020)

@ProStar: He probably wouldn't be talking so much about feet if you weren't continually egging him on about it.

If any event is ever going to be added, there needs to be talk about it. I think it's perfectly reasonable for people to mention they would like feet back. Or magic and master magic. Or anything else for that matter.

I would prefer that people not go overboard spamming about wanting feet back. But occasionally lobbying for it seems perfectly acceptable and justified to me.

And as for magic and master magic, I'd still love to have *scrambled* magic and master magic added as events. Of course, the catch to that is that someone needs to develop a manageable scrambler for them, which is an even bigger challenge than the curvy copter one was.


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## Da Werido (Apr 29, 2020)

well tbh, as I said in another thread, Rubik's Triamid looks like it can be added to WCA, it's the closest thing related to Rubik' Cube out of all Rubik's products IMO so it fits well


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## Username: Username: (Apr 29, 2020)

Da Werido said:


> Unpopular Opinion #4: Rubik's Triamid needs to be added in WCA



wait da minute I think it is not suitable for WCA. (pun intended) the pieces for the Rubik's Triamid can be taken apart like it's not even attaching to other pieces, so how can you even turn fast? let alone turning. yes I know the WCA includes twisty puzzles that doesn't turn, but I have one more point, you can solve it easily like you are putting the pieces back in.

edit : this post actually deserves to be on the adding another event in the WCA, thread.


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## 1cubealot (Apr 29, 2020)

ProStar said:


> I want a BLD event where a mirror cube and 3x3 are scrambled identically, memo is done on the mirror cube, and solve is done on 3x3.


Maybe do it the other way around


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## Username: Username: (Apr 29, 2020)

1cubealot said:


> Maybe do it the other way around



Or my idea, a random 3x3 mod and a normal 3x3 is scrambled the same way, you do the memo on the regular cube then you solve the random 3x3 mod but this time you have to guess the 3x3 shape mod and complete the solve, if you don't guess it correct its a DNF and with the solving the mod blindfolded, use the regular 3BLD regulations.


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## PapaSmurf (May 2, 2020)

That's too complicated for anything and doesn't add anything new.


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## PikachuPlayz_MC (May 14, 2020)

Wondering what ya'll think. I think mirror blocks, fisher and kilo should be added.


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## Mike3451 (May 14, 2020)

I said Mirror Blocks since it wouldn't take too long and a lot of people seem to enjoy it.


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## Ayce (May 14, 2020)

Same, 8-10 would just be too long and really not worth it, if you think about how many people own all 8-10 cubes


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## BenChristman1 (May 14, 2020)

None of the above. Redi Cube and 15 Puzzle.

EDIT: Mirror Blocks, too, I guess.


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## BenTheCubeDude (May 14, 2020)

Almost none of these would be good to add, even if the WCA was looking for new events. Fisher Cube, mirror blocks, and ghost cube are all 3x3 shapemods. 8x8-10x10 are all too long. Cuboids are too similar to certain NxN cubes. (Btw, a tower cube is just a 2x2x4, which is a cuboid.) Magic was removed for a reason, and it shouldn’t come back. Kilominx is the only decent one on this list, and it doesn’t add a ton of value. Also, there’s a thread for this already.


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## Micah Morrison (May 14, 2020)

I voted for kilominx, because I personally would want to see 8x8 but it would take too long and doesn't add much to the WCA. I also think it would be cool if one of the bigger megaminx puzzles was added, like a master kilominx or a gigaminx


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## Owen Morrison (May 14, 2020)

I think the only puzzles worth adding to the WCA are Redi cube and Kilominx.


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## PetrusQuber (May 14, 2020)

More shapeshifting stuff like Curvy Copter, more unique things, not just shapemods (unless there is something special)


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## I'm A Cuber (May 14, 2020)

Micah Morrison said:


> I also think it would be cool if one of the bigger megaminx puzzles was added, like a master kilominx or a gigaminx


I don’t think that those are stackmatable for the average solver


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## Sub1Hour (May 14, 2020)

I'm A Cuber said:


> I don’t think that those are stackmatable for the average solver


Master Kilominx is feasible but it's such a long event and does not offer much that big cubes and megaminx already have. I think that certain edge turning puzzles would work great in the WCA since we don't have any edge turning puzzles yet.


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## GAN 356 X (May 14, 2020)

Owen Morrison said:


> I think the only puzzles worth adding to the WCA are Redi cube and Kilominx.


In my opinion kilominx is definitely something in need of being added. Master pyraminx looks pretty fun too


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## vidcapper (Jun 19, 2020)

Kilominx, Master Kilominx & Master Pyraminx would be my choices, although I have yet to find a Kilominx that doesn't lock up more than a prison guard.


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## ProStar (Jun 19, 2020)

vidcapper said:


> Kilominx, Master Kilominx & Master Pyraminx would be my choices, although I have yet to find a Kilominx that doesn't lock up more than a prison guard.



A new one is coming out soon


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## VIBE_ZT (Jun 19, 2020)

vidcapper said:


> Kilominx, Master Kilominx & Master Pyraminx would be my choices, although I have yet to find a Kilominx that doesn't lock up more than a prison guard.











Upcoming puzzles


From reflection, I think it's 13x13. Yuxin doesn't have one (only I saw are ShengSHou & Moyu) Just caught that. Really subtle and cheeky. Nice call!




www.speedsolving.com





Hopefully this one will be better


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## Q-- (Jun 19, 2020)

Kilominx hardware has had some improvements recently, and the MFJS one has great potential that I think people somewhat overlooked. I magnetized it and it is much more stable and catching is reduced significantly, and you could do additional modding to the centers to make it even better. The QiYi one will probably be the best when it comes out anyway, so hardware isn’t an issue.

Kilominx itself is a great event that also has potential. I’ve been practicing it a ton recently, and found that it has many great things to add. Since it’s a mix between 2x2 and megaminx, it balances the quick first layer of 2x2 that’s over in half a second with the “oh my gosh why are there so many f2l pairs” of megaminx. This results in an event that requires simple and easy blockbuilding like megaminx, but extended and with so many more options to improve efficiency than 2x2, and it’s really nice for somebody like me with very poor f2l. Another thing about kilominx is that lookahead is still important, but way easier than megaminx so that you can focus on a lot of parts of the solve at once, rather than directing your attention to 2/3 specific pairs which is the case for most megaminx solvers (not at the top level, of course)

Plus, kilominx has a lot of room to grow still. My pb, 15.92, is only 5 seconds away from the uwr. I’m not even particularly good, as I average high 20s on kilo but 1:50 on mega, so kilo times aren’t exactly connected to mega times (which is kind of an issue with 5/6/7 imo). I think it can be pushed to sub-10 or further. Plus, kilo can but doesn’t have to be alg heavy. Oll and Pll can get you quick <5 sec last layer times and they’re easy to learn, but I plan to develop and learn full Cll for kilominx eventually anyway.

That’s just my two cents on kilominx, I apologize for the wall of text, but I strongly support kilominx becoming an official event. I’d love to discuss it further if anybody would like.
Edit: this might belong in a different thread, so I’ll move it there if it does


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## Auric Cui (Jul 18, 2022)

Add snake, Ivy cube and kilominx. IDK why I'm voting 'kilominx' because it's basically a megaminx and a 2x2 combined, my 2 least favourite events


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## Project O YT (Jul 18, 2022)

GAN 356 X said:


> Since I forgot to add so many things, I decided to make a new one.


Where?


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## Timona (Jul 18, 2022)

My Top 3 that should be added.
- Master Pyraminx, just something different.
- Kilominx. Megaminx, but scaled down.
- FTO. Large following, idk why it hasn't been added yet.


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## Filipe Teixeira (Jul 18, 2022)

Timona said:


> My Top 3 that should be added.
> - Master Pyraminx, just something different.
> - Kilominx. Megaminx, but scaled down.
> - FTO. Large following, idk why it hasn't been added yet.


can you recommend me hardware for those? I want to try them


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## Tabe (Jul 18, 2022)

Filipe Teixeira said:


> can you recommend me hardware for those? I want to try them


For master pyraminx, get the Qiyi.


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## ruffleduck (Jul 18, 2022)

Filipe Teixeira said:


> can you recommend me hardware for those? I want to try them


Kilominx: shengshou
FTO: lanlan


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## Eli Apperson (Jul 18, 2022)

zzoomer said:


> Kilominx: shengshou


It seems to me the Qiyi is better. Do you have a differing experience?


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## ruffleduck (Jul 18, 2022)

Eli Apperson said:


> It seems to me the Qiyi is better. Do you have a differing experience?


They both are good. I just like the shengshou because it feels smoother.


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## LukasCubes (Jul 18, 2022)

i want all these events in the wca lol


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## Filipe Teixeira (Jul 18, 2022)

Tabe said:


> For master pyraminx, get the Qiyi.





zzoomer said:


> Kilominx: shengshou
> FTO: lanlan





Eli Apperson said:


> It seems to me the Qiyi is better. Do you have a differing experience?





zzoomer said:


> They both are good. I just like the shengshou because it feels smoother.


thanks guys!!


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## NigelTheCuber (Aug 15, 2022)

i would add: 2oh, kilominx, mirror blocks, master pyra


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## Fukuoka Kengo James (Nov 1, 2022)

I’d suggest adding 2x2 blindfolded to the wca events


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## Cuber987 (Nov 1, 2022)

Team Blind, 2x2 OH, Double OH, and 2BLD.


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## LBr (Nov 1, 2022)

Fukuoka Kengo James said:


> I’d suggest adding 2x2 blindfolded to the wca events


That’s a terrible idea as it adds nothing new. With 3bld you can’t one look it with a speedsolving thus you need blind optimised methods and algorithms, with 2x2 it’s ‘who can one look a solve the fastest and get a lucky case’.

I don’t support adding any events but I’ve always thought that team bld would be cool. There would need to be strict regulations to prevent cheating tho, and by strict I mean strict


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