# Potential Threat to Top BLD Cubers



## JemFish (Jan 28, 2015)

Hey people,

I'm Jeremy Lindsay, and I've been cubing for about a year with CFOP, averaging around 25 seconds with white/yellow cross and 30 seconds with colour neutrality. I have learnt full PLL. Before anything, just know that I'm terrible at speedcubing.

BUT, recently I've learnt 3BLD with M2 edges and OP corners, thanks to Noah's tutorials, and after about 15 solves I'm averaging around 4 minutes with a PB of 3:00.19 minutes. I have almost completely abandoned normal speedcubing, and instead am focusing entirely on BLD, because that's what I love (*update* - no, I'm still speedcubing...). All I know right now is that I am going to become pro. Period.

Now I hope to be a potential threat to top BLD cubers, although I have never had a 4BLD or 5BLD success before. Watch out Maskow, and watch out, Ollie!
-----
Here's a list of my puzzles:

Moyu Weilong * 2
Dayan Zhanchi
Moyu Weisu
Shengshou megaminx
Store-bought 2x2x2
Store-bought 3x3x3 * 3
Miniso Rubik's Cube * 2 (You can read about them here.)
Store-bought 4x4x4

The Dayan Zhanchi (*update* - Miniso cube) is my main 3x3x3, and my favourite puzzle, aesthetically, is the megaminx.
-----
) Some special thanks to special people and for special things:
)
) Noah Arthurs and his brilliant BLD tutorials;
) Badmephisto and his tutorials;
) Andy Klise and his speedcubing pdfs;
) Stefan Pochmann and his beginner BLD methods;
) Chris Hardwick and his long list of letter pairs;
) Jessica Fridrich and her contribution to CFOP;
) Feliks Zemdegs and his example solves;
) The administrators, moderators, and members of speedsolving.com;
) ...and of course Mr. Erno Rubik, inventor of the puzzle that this website's all about.
)
) *EDIT*: I forgot to mention my thanks to Walter Souza and his wonderful world of Prisma Puzzle Timer; I'm a big fan of that software.

~ JemFish


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## StachuK1992 (Jan 28, 2015)

I like the font you chose and the way you write the things.

Welcome. Kick some ass.


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## tarandeep5 (Jan 28, 2015)

Welcome! That determination though


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## CyanSandwich (Jan 28, 2015)

You're cocky. I like it.

You're also really fast for being only 15 solves in. I look forward to your inevitably insane progress.


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## JasonDL13 (Jan 28, 2015)

I bloody clicked on this thread in panic because I thought it was a WCA regulation change or something and I was nervous.

Pls don't do MBLD because I want to win.


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## NewCuber000 (Jan 28, 2015)

You definitely have the spirit to be a pro lol. Determination is usually all it takes too, I wouodn't be surprised if you were near the top in a couple years.

Edit: What's roughly your BLD success rate? You say you average 4 minutes. And maybe if you have a lot of successes you could get good at multiblind. Sorry to the previous comment telling you not to do multi ;-)


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## gj matt (Jan 28, 2015)

Bold. You have my respect, whatever that means to you


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## uyneb2000 (Jan 28, 2015)

You, sir, have the attitude to become a pro. I wish you the best of luck!


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## JemFish (Jan 28, 2015)

CyanSandwich said:


> You're also really fast for being only 15 solves in.



OK I wasn't clear with that - my average is 4 minutes after 15 successful solves (which is about 30 attempts in all). I focus on speed and let the accuracy come naturally, because I know that an attempt, whether a success or not, is practice.


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## Deleted member 19792 (Jan 28, 2015)

You already have my respect. You have that new kid on the block attitude. I like that!


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## JemFish (Jan 28, 2015)

NewCuber000 said:


> What's roughly your BLD success rate? You say you average 4 minutes. And maybe if you have a lot of successes you could get good at multiblind.



Two weeks ago, my BLD success rate was about 1 in 4, which was very frustrating, but after deliberately practising edge memorisation, my success rate rose to about 3 in 5. (Now I haven't done that many solves yet, and these are just estimations with not too much proof, so don't get excited.)

Yes, I would like to try MBLD but that's not my favourite event. (Relax, JasonDL13.)


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## guysensei1 (Jan 28, 2015)

JemFish said:


> OK I wasn't clear with that - my average is 4 minutes after 15 successful solves (which is about 30 attempts in all). I focus on speed and let the accuracy come naturally, because I know that an attempt, whether a success or not, is practice.



50% accuracy is amazing. I'm still at <20% sucess rate


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## Takezaki (Jan 28, 2015)

How old are you, just out of curiosity.


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## Noahaha (Jan 28, 2015)

Do what's fun.

Eat the moon.


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## guysensei1 (Jan 28, 2015)

Noahaha said:


> fun
> 
> 
> Eat the moon.



Those 2 do not go together.


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## Berd (Jan 28, 2015)

MBLD is mine! Please dm me if you have any questions or need help, I'll be more than happy to answer them.


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## JemFish (Jan 28, 2015)

Takezaki said:


> How old are you, just out of curiosity.



I'll be turning 14 this February, but people think I'm 15.


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## Berd (Jan 28, 2015)

JemFish said:


> I'll be turning 14 this February, but people think I'm 15.



If you need letter pairs, PM me.


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## guysensei1 (Jan 28, 2015)

Thanks for giving me a nice pair for　JF


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## suushiemaniac (Jan 28, 2015)

Wow, I'm astonished by your determination 
I'm really looking forward to seeing you improve if you can keep up the pace and most importantly the motivation.
Welcome to the community!


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## pdilla (Jan 28, 2015)

JemFish said:


> I focus on speed and let the accuracy come naturally, because I know that an attempt, whether a success or not, is practice.



This is apparently the key to getting good at BLD. The complete opposite of sighted solves. Push those fast memos and keep on DNFing until you get it right at that speed.


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## JemFish (Jan 28, 2015)

pdilla said:


> This is apparently the key to getting good at BLD. The complete opposite of sighted solves. Push those fast memos and keep on DNFing until you get it right at that speed.



That's one great thing I love about BLD practice.


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## Ollie (Jan 28, 2015)

Come at me bro

PS: Welcome


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## Dong (Jan 28, 2015)

Good luck! 
Man, I should do a member intro...


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## Ickathu (Jan 28, 2015)

Dude, I like your attitude. Keep it up.

I'm expecting a new WR in 2015.


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## sneaklyfox (Jan 28, 2015)

Welcome! Wow, bold words. I'm interested to follow your progress. Also, I'm wondering about your fish avatar. Does it mean something?


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## Ickathu (Jan 28, 2015)

sneaklyfox said:


> Welcome! Wow, bold words. I'm interested to follow your progress. Also, I'm wondering about your fish avatar. Does it mean something?



I wondered that too - is it supposed to be an Ichthys? (Also, I'm noticing now that my username is very resemblant of that spelling - completely unrelated. I'm not really sure how I came up with the name "Ickathu," to be honest)


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## TDM (Jan 28, 2015)

Welcome!




guysensei1 said:


> I'm still at <20% sucess rate


Same. I don't know why I'm practising more multi than single BLD 


guysensei1 said:


> Thanks for giving me a nice pair for　JF


Jellyfish?


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## goodatthis (Jan 28, 2015)

after about 10-15 total attempts, I was able to get a few solves around 1:30 for memo and 2:00 for execution, about 3:30 in total. (and a 2:55 PB) Just saying


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## cmhardw (Jan 28, 2015)

Very cool member introduction - I like you already  Good luck with your goals! If you have enough grit to practice regularly and keep learning new things, then you will more than achieve your goals.



JemFish said:


> I focus on speed and let the accuracy come naturally, because *I know that an attempt, whether a success or not, is practice.*



This is why I think you will do well in BLD cubing. This attitude about BLD solving normally takes a while to learn, but you're already viewing solves as practice and not potential successes. You'll do fine


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## kcl (Jan 28, 2015)

guysensei1 said:


> Those 2 do not go together.



not with that attitude


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## A Leman (Jan 28, 2015)

I already know how this story ends. You need to prepare for burnout. I can't stress enough how important preparing for burnout is!! Reading your introduction reminded me of times when I thought exactly like this, ditched all other events, overtrained BLD and suddenly didn't want to even look at a cube. The passion is good though if you direct it at a specific part of your solves. At your point, you only have 3 options for that goal. They would be to learn a letter pair list perfectly and quickly, making many Journeys(method of loci) or to learn Commutators. I'd suggest doing the letter pairs first. You've got great spirit, good luck!


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## penguinz7 (Jan 28, 2015)

Thats awesome, but I wouldn't stop doing 3x3 if I was you. It can help your BLD solves a lot, especially with TPS.


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## Rocky0701 (Jan 28, 2015)

penguinz7 said:


> Thats awesome, but I wouldn't stop doing 3x3 if I was you. It can help your BLD solves a lot, especially with TPS.


I agree, keep doing 3x3, at least a little bit. Welcome and good luck!


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## Ollie (Jan 28, 2015)

Rocky0701 said:


> I agree, keep doing 3x3, at least a little bit. Welcome and good luck!



One of my regrets is not doing other events while I got better at BLD. I failed a lot in comp because of nerves/stress, so it would've been nice to have another event to fall back on and get a PB in


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## JemFish (Jan 29, 2015)

sneaklyfox said:


> Welcome! Wow, bold words. I'm interested to follow your progress. Also, I'm wondering about your fish avatar. Does it mean something?





Ickathu said:


> I wondered that too - is it supposed to be an Ichthys? (Also, I'm noticing now that my username is very resemblant of that spelling - completely unrelated. I'm not really sure how I came up with the name "Ickathu," to be honest)



The fish avatar wasn't originally supposed to be an Ichthys, but it can be, because I am a Christian, and proud of it too.

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek." - Romans 1:16



A Leman said:


> I already know how this story ends. You need to prepare for burnout. I can't stress enough how important preparing for burnout is!! Reading your introduction reminded me of times when I thought exactly like this, ditched all other events, overtrained BLD and suddenly didn't want to even look at a cube. The passion is good though if you direct it at a specific part of your solves. At your point, you only have 3 options for that goal. They would be to learn a letter pair list perfectly and quickly, making many Journeys(method of loci) or to learn Commutators. I'd suggest doing the letter pairs first. You've got great spirit, good luck!



Hmm...

Yes, I've been working on my letter pair list, but maybe not quickly so I'll try to get it done.
I do use the method of loci, but I only ever use 3 or 4 locations, used for corners which I memorise first. When I start big-cube BLD I'll continue to strengthen my locations.
Commutators? I've only been BLD cubing for two weeks, and I'll learn that eventually.

Thanks for the encouragement and (good) criticism, I appreciate it. (Gee, sometimes my head gets too far ahead of where I really am.)



Ollie said:


> One of my regrets is not doing other events while I got better at BLD. I failed a lot in comp because of nerves/stress, so it would've been nice to have another event to fall back on and get a PB in



OK OK, I'll keep practising CFOP and Yau (and a bit of megaminx).

~ JemFish


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## Ickathu (Jan 31, 2015)

JemFish said:


> The fish avatar wasn't originally supposed to be an Ichthys, but it can be, because I am a Christian, and proud of it too.
> 
> "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek." - Romans 1:16



116! Obviously, it's not necessary that you like Reach Records and the 116 Clique, but most of the time when people quote that verse, it's because of Reach. So - what do you think of Reach Records?
Also, have you heard Social Club? I always laugh when I say this, but Social Club is the best. There's a link in my sig to one of their songs (Marty Mar is in Social Club).


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## Sauce (Feb 1, 2015)

Welcome!


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## Dene (Feb 1, 2015)

A top blder in Sydney?

I should warn you, you have some way to go before you're even the best in Australia, let alone the world.


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## Roman (Feb 1, 2015)

JemFish said:


> Now I hope to be a potential threat to top BLD cubers



I know a lot of people who talks a lot and does a little. But hopefully it's not about you. 
The bad news is that it's impossible to achieve Maskow's or Oliver's level at BLD in a short amount of time.


Spoiler



considering short amount of time as one year of hard training





A Leman said:


> I already know how this story ends.



+


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## sneaklyfox (Feb 1, 2015)

JemFish said:


> The fish avatar wasn't originally supposed to be an Ichthys, but it can be, because I am a Christian, and proud of it too.
> 
> "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek." - Romans 1:16


Awesome, bro! (And I CAN call you bro now, hehe.)



Ickathu said:


> 116! Obviously, it's not necessary that you like Reach Records and the 116 Clique, but most of the time when people quote that verse, it's because of Reach. So - what do you think of Reach Records?
> Also, have you heard Social Club? I always laugh when I say this, but Social Club is the best. There's a link in my sig to one of their songs (Marty Mar is in Social Club).


Totally lost me with Reach Records and 116 Clique and Social Club. I'm not into Christian rock.


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## Ickathu (Feb 1, 2015)

sneaklyfox said:


> Totally lost me with Reach Records and 116 Clique and Social Club. I'm not into Christian rock.



I think it's pretty cool. I'm rather obsessed with music, I can hardly do anything without some sort of music in the background. So this way I get the music style I like (hip-hop/rock/generally-up-beat) without having to listen to people talk about how awesome they are, doing drugs, buying fancy cars, and all that, which I don't agree with (philosophically, morally, financially, etc.).

Also, it's probably aimed more towards the under-30 crowd with the style of it (personally, I don't know anyone over the age of, say, 50 who likes rap/hip-hop music). I don't know how old you are (I'm not saying you're over 50, or anywhere near there. To be honest, I'd probably put you 30s or 40s, because 5 kids is a lot. Also, my mother is 40-something, and I'm one of four children) or what sort of music you like, so yeah.

Anyway, I'm rambling because of the whole age thing. Such a tricky topic. Hopefully I didn't offend anyone.


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## JemFish (Feb 2, 2015)

Dene said:


> A top blder in Sydney?
> 
> I should warn you, you have some way to go before you're even the best in Australia, let alone the world.



The more the competition, the more the competitiveness, that's what I say.



Roman said:


> I know a lot of people who talks a lot and does a little. But hopefully it's not about you.
> The bad news is that it's impossible to achieve Maskow's or Oliver's level at BLD in a short amount of time.



I'm a pianist, and I know what practice is, trust me. And becoming pro at cubing is nothing compared to becoming pro at piano, because 3 years of piano practice is only worth about 1 year of cubing practice.



sneaklyfox said:


> Awesome, bro! (And I CAN call you bro now, hehe.)



Absolutely, sis!



Ickathu said:


> I think it's pretty cool. I'm rather obsessed with music, I can hardly do anything without some sort of music in the background. So this way I get the music style I like (hip-hop/rock/generally-up-beat) without having to listen to people talk about how awesome they are, doing drugs, buying fancy cars, and all that, which I don't agree with (philosophically, morally, financially, etc.).
> 
> Also, it's probably aimed more towards the under-30 crowd with the style of it (personally, I don't know anyone over the age of, say, 50 who likes rap/hip-hop music). I don't know how old you are (I'm not saying you're over 50, or anywhere near there. To be honest, I'd probably put you 30s or 40s, because 5 kids is a lot. Also, my mother is 40-something, and I'm one of four children) or what sort of music you like, so yeah.
> 
> Anyway, I'm rambling because of the whole age thing. Such a tricky topic. Hopefully I didn't offend anyone.




Yep, you're rambling. No offence, but I don't like loud music like rap, rock, dubstep, etc. My favourite music artist is Jon Hopkins, who by far is the most incredible musician I've ever listened to. (Check out his two best albums Immunity and Insides - they're amazing.) I don't like LeCrae, but more worshipful music like Jon Thurlow. OK I better stop before I start rambling.

~ JemFish


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## penguinz7 (Feb 2, 2015)

JemFish said:


> "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek." - Romans 1:16



yeyeyeah!!


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## sneaklyfox (Feb 2, 2015)

Ickathu said:


> Also, it's probably aimed more towards the under-30 crowd with the style of it (personally, I don't know anyone over the age of, say, 50 who likes rap/hip-hop music). I don't know how old you are (I'm not saying you're over 50, or anywhere near there. To be honest, I'd probably put you 30s or 40s, because 5 kids is a lot. Also, my mother is 40-something, and I'm one of four children) or what sort of music you like, so yeah.
> 
> Anyway, I'm rambling because of the whole age thing. Such a tricky topic. Hopefully I didn't offend anyone.



Didn't take offence to anything so no worries there. It was funny how you said you thought I was in my 30s or 40s because of the kids. Yeah, it probably means I'm not that young, but I could be anything older than that. I'll still have 5 kids when I'm in my 80s, you know. But yeah, I'm actually 33. My music tastes are very conservative though. Classical music is my thing though I can appreciate other styles of music too. Even rap has rhythm to it (though unfortunately the words are often distasteful). I just can't stand heavy metal which doesn't even classify as "music" in my books. Now, hopefully *I* didn't offend anyone. Sorry for being so off topic!


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## JemFish (Feb 2, 2015)

sneaklyfox said:


> Classical music is my thing though I can appreciate other styles of music too.



Piano comes before cubing, for me, and classical music is pretty much all I play. My three favourite Classical composers are Chopin, Mozart, and Debussy, although in general I just like any thoughtful music, usually when it's quiet or gentle (like Jon Hopkins). I admit, though, stupid music like pop and some electronic music can be fun too.



sneaklyfox said:


> Sorry for being so off topic!



Ah, don't worry. This thread is all about me, and music is my life, so feel free to post about music here.


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## Dene (Feb 2, 2015)

JemFish said:


> I'm a pianist, and I know what practice is, trust me. And becoming pro at cubing is nothing compared to becoming pro at piano, because 3 years of piano practice is only worth about 1 year of cubing practice.



Oh boy are you in for a surprise.



sneaklyfox said:


> I just can't stand heavy metal which doesn't even classify as "music" in my books. Now, hopefully *I* didn't offend anyone



Consider me officially offended. Metal is the most involving form of music around. It requires the most skill, the most rhythm, and the most musical ability in general to be good at it.


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## JemFish (Feb 2, 2015)

Dene said:


> Oh boy are you in for a surprise.



"Successful people will always tell you you can do something. It's the people who have never accomplished anything who will always discourage you from trying to achieve excellent things." - Lou Holtz

Should I now assume that you're a person who has never accomplished anything?



Dene said:


> Consider me officially offended. Metal is the most involving form of music around. It requires the most skill, the most rhythm, and the most musical ability in general to be good at it.



Goodness me; you might as well listen to a pig squealing and think it music.


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## Tim Major (Feb 2, 2015)

JemFish said:


> "Successful people will always tell you you can do something. It's the people who have never accomplished anything who will always discourage you from trying to achieve excellent things." - Lou Holtz
> 
> Should I now assume that you're a person who has never accomplished anything?



He's accomplished heaps! http://i.imgur.com/yYlsLki.png

But see my signature, because right now nobody imagines anything from you.


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## ottozing (Feb 2, 2015)

"Has Anyone Really Been Far Even as Decided to Use Even Go Want to do Look More Like?" - Dr Phil


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## Tim Major (Feb 2, 2015)

ottozing said:


> "Has Anyone Really Been Far Even as Decided to Use Even Go Want to do Look More Like?" - Dr Phil



"_That was a dank meme_" - Einstein


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## CriticalCubing (Feb 2, 2015)

After reading everything, I must I have taken an interest in you. You optimism and determination far exceeds mine. You are also a pacifist which is really great in my book  Welcome to the forums and have a great cubing journey, It is also interesting that you have prioritised your cubing hobby. Dont get discouraged and walk the path you chose  Lets be friends (maybe best friends?)


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## JemFish (Feb 2, 2015)

CriticalCubing said:


> After reading everything, I must I have taken an interest in you. You optimism and determination far exceeds mine. You are also a pacifist which is really great in my book  Welcome to the forums and have a great cubing journey, It is also interesting that you have prioritised your cubing hobby. Dont get discouraged and walk the path you chose  Lets be friends (maybe best friends?)



Thanks for your encouragement! And about being friends, I don't know how that'll work but I badly need some cuber friends right now; no one I know is interested in cubing.


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## tseitsei (Feb 2, 2015)

So arrogant and cocky guy...

You clearly have no idea how hard it is to be a world class (BLD)cuber.

I say more actions/results and less talk.

Also


> I'm a pianist, and I know what practice is, trust me. And becoming pro at cubing is nothing compared to becoming pro at piano, because *3 years of piano practice is only worth about 1 year of cubing practice.*



WTF?! What does this even mean? Why would practising piano have different "value" than practising cubing or football or anything else? Of course it is harder to be world class at something that has much more people practising the event (for example at soccer) but still I don't understand how 3 years of practising something = 1 year of practising something else...


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## Ickathu (Feb 2, 2015)

sneaklyfox said:


> Didn't take offence to anything so no worries there. It was funny how you said you thought I was in my 30s or 40s because of the kids. Yeah, it probably means I'm not that young, but I could be anything older than that. *I'll still have 5 kids when I'm in my 80s, you know.*



Excellent point...
But I remember a while back when you cubed during labor. And I'm pretty sure that there aren't any 80 year olds giving birth 



Dene said:


> Consider me officially offended. Metal is the most involving form of music around. It requires the most skill, the most rhythm, and the most musical ability in general to be good at it.



Ehhhh, I disagree. I'm not a fan of it. To be perfectly honest, I rather despise heavy metal. That being said, I _would _still call it music because it does have harmony, rythm, etc.
But does it really require the most skill, rythm, and musical ability? I'd say instrumental (piano and violin in particular) or orchestral music requires the most skill, rythm, and musical ability.



tseitsei said:


> WTF?! What does this even mean? Why would practising piano have different "value" than practising cubing or football or anything else? Of course it is harder to be world class at something that has much more people practising the event (for example at soccer) but still I don't understand how 3 years of practising something = 1 year of practising something else...



I kind of wondered that too. I think he just meant what you said - becoming world class. For example, when speedcubing first became "a thing," people could become world class in a matter of months, sheerly because there weren't many people to compete against. A 17-second average was world class, but today, it's mediocre-to-decent (I'm saying this as a person who averages slower than 17 sec).

But yeah, if I cube for 10 hours, and I play piano for 10 hours, I'm still 10 hours better at both of them.


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## Berd (Feb 2, 2015)

Less talk more work...


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## sneaklyfox (Feb 2, 2015)

Ickathu said:


> Excellent point...
> But I remember a while back when you cubed during labor. And I'm pretty sure that there aren't any 80 year olds giving birth


Ok, you got me there...



Ickathu said:


> But yeah, if I cube for 10 hours, and I play piano for 10 hours, I'm still 10 hours better at both of them.


I think what JemFish meant in his original post about 3 hours piano practice to 1 hour cubing practice is like saying he thinks that getting good at piano is three times harder than getting good at cubing. Just think of something relatively easy to learn, like doing a somersault (I mean the way kids do it, not flipping in the air). It's simple so it doesn't take 10,000 hours to learn how to do it well.


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## tseitsei (Feb 2, 2015)

sneaklyfox said:


> I think what JemFish meant in his original post about 3 hours piano practice to 1 hour cubing practice is like saying he thinks that getting good at piano is three times harder than getting good at cubing. Just think of something relatively easy to learn, like doing a somersault (I mean the way kids do it, not flipping in the air). It's simple so it doesn't take 10,000 hours to learn how to do it well.



How do you compare being good at piano and being good at cubing or some sport or whatever it is that you decide to practise?
IMO that's impossible.

Also I think doing somersaults is a bad example for comparison. More accurate would on that category be something like doing gymnastics or tricking. Because somersault is just one simple move needed in those sports. Kind of like doing one algorithm quickly in cubing (that would be more comparable to somersaults IMO).
So can you tell me how many cubing hours does one hour of gymnastics practise equal?


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## Dene (Feb 2, 2015)

Ickathu said:


> Ehhhh, I disagree. I'm not a fan of it. To be perfectly honest, I rather despise heavy metal. That being said, I _would _still call it music because it does have harmony, rythm, etc.
> But does it really require the most skill, rythm, and musical ability? I'd say instrumental (piano and violin in particular) or orchestral music requires the most skill, rythm, and musical ability.



dyk
- lots of metal utilises classical instruments, full choirs, and full orchestras?



JemFish said:


> "Successful people will always tell you you can do something. It's the people who have never accomplished anything who will always discourage you from trying to achieve excellent things." - Lou Holtz
> 
> Should I now assume that you're a person who has never accomplished anything?



Figure what you want. I'm just trying to give you a reality check.


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## Randomno (Feb 2, 2015)

Roman said:


> I know a lot of people who talks a lot and does a little. But hopefully it's not about you.
> The bad news is that it's impossible to achieve Maskow's or Oliver's level at BLD in a short amount of time.
> 
> 
> ...



Heh I don't know anyone who talks too much and practices too litt.. wait.



JemFish said:


> I'm a pianist, and I know what practice is, trust me. And becoming pro at cubing is nothing compared to becoming pro at piano, because 3 years of piano practice is only worth about 1 year of cubing practice.



Since you aren't really a pro at cubing, are you sure you're in a position to say that? 

But maybe you'll end up as Kennan LeBLDJeune.


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## Thompson (Feb 2, 2015)

Grind hard stay humble


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## Berd (Feb 2, 2015)

Thompson said:


> Grind hard stay humble



Let it ring out


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## JemFish (Feb 3, 2015)

tseitsei said:


> So arrogant and cocky guy...
> 
> You clearly have no idea how hard it is to be a world class (BLD)cuber.
> 
> I say more actions/results and less talk.



I've noticed a trend. A lot of the 'pros' tell little people like me that I "have no idea how hard it is to be a world class cuber." Are you afraid of me or what? You only have the right to tell me to have "more actions/results and less talk" if you watch me every day and see how I'm doing. But no, you don't. Anyway, because of school, I only get about an hour of cubing practice a day, and on weekends I get 3-5 hours. Now instead of picking on me, why don't you, a pro, tell me if that's a good amount of practice or not?



tseitsei said:


> WTF?! What does this even mean? Why would practising piano have different "value" than practising cubing or football or anything else? Of course it is harder to be world class at something that has much more people practising the event (for example at soccer) but still I don't understand how 3 years of practising something = 1 year of practising something else...





sneaklyfox said:


> I think what JemFish meant in his original post about 3 hours piano practice to 1 hour cubing practice is like saying he thinks that getting good at piano is three times harder than getting good at cubing. Just think of something relatively easy to learn, like doing a somersault (I mean the way kids do it, not flipping in the air). It's simple so it doesn't take 10,000 hours to learn how to do it well.



That's exactly what I meant.



tseitsei said:


> How do you compare being good at piano and being good at cubing or some sport or whatever it is that you decide to practise?
> IMO that's impossible.
> 
> Also I think doing somersaults is a bad example for comparison. More accurate would on that category be something like doing gymnastics or tricking. Because somersault is just one simple move needed in those sports. Kind of like doing one algorithm quickly in cubing (that would be more comparable to somersaults IMO).
> So can you tell me how many cubing hours does one hour of gymnastics practise equal?



Take a look at sneaklyfox's quote. And about gymnastics and somersaults, there's no point in getting too technical, because after all, I'm trying to give an example of the relative difficulty of progress of different skills, not do some calculation of the 'worth' of an hour's practice.



Thompson said:


> Grind hard stay humble



Yep.

~ JemFish


----------



## Rocky0701 (Feb 3, 2015)

Dene said:


> Oh boy are you in for a surprise.
> 
> 
> 
> Consider me officially offended. Metal is the most involving form of music around. It requires the most skill, the most rhythm, and the most musical ability in general to be good at it.


I agree, it is my favorite genre.


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## JemFish (Feb 3, 2015)

Rocky0701 said:


> I agree, it [metal] is my favorite genre.



The lines between pigs squealing and so-called 'music' have been blurred.


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## Escher (Feb 3, 2015)

Dene said:


> Consider me officially offended. Metal is the most involving form of music around. It requires the most skill, the most rhythm, and the most musical ability in general to be good at it.



Wtf Dene? You don't get offended, you just get progressively more metal. Also I propose that flatpicking banjo pirate classico-jazz folk requires the most skill, swagger, good looks, and all-round physical prowess. 

More seriously, putting 10,000 hours of practise into piano or into 3BLD either way doesn't matter at all unless you get enjoyment from skill acquisition. Your relative position in the pack of people who engage in the same activity is unimportant. At 3bld it is still conceivable that any individual could put in thousands of hours of deliberate practise and shape their entire person around the skill and become the best, at least for a short while. Just because in piano (a several-hundred year-old 'hobby') no one individual can have confidence that they could work multiple thousands of hours and become 'the best', it doesn't detract anything from that effort, nor make it comparable to 3bld in that way.

In this world there are multiple, multivaried and complex factors or ways of being raised and growing and learning before you encounter a skill you want to develop; these can rule you out from being the best any human can possibly be at something. It's far more interesting and exciting to work on being the best YOU can be at something. If you've already got a meta-cognitive framework for practise from piano then all the better. 

If you haven't already, you might enjoy reading my sticky on practise, whether you're already comfortable with the content or not (I reckon it could do with a version 2.0 soon).


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## Ollie (Feb 3, 2015)

JemFish said:


> The lines between pigs squealing and so-called 'music' have been blurred.



blurred liiiiiines ♪


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## lunchmaster (Feb 3, 2015)

So much hate lol

You sound like an awesome guy, good luck with everything! Don't listen to the people who say you can't do it!


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## SpiderFingers (Feb 3, 2015)

Actually, this is the best music you will ever listen to: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HilGthRhwP8 (or this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=srP5twK-9Dw)


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## JemFish (Feb 3, 2015)

Escher said:


> Wtf Dene? You don't get offended, you just get progressively more metal. Also I propose that flatpicking banjo pirate classico-jazz folk requires the most skill, swagger, good looks, and all-round physical prowess.
> 
> More seriously, putting 10,000 hours of practise into piano or into 3BLD either way doesn't matter at all unless you get enjoyment from skill acquisition. Your relative position in the pack of people who engage in the same activity is unimportant. At 3bld it is still conceivable that any individual could put in thousands of hours of deliberate practise and shape their entire person around the skill and become the best, at least for a short while. Just because in piano (a several-hundred year-old 'hobby') no one individual can have confidence that they could work multiple thousands of hours and become 'the best', it doesn't detract anything from that effort, nor make it comparable to 3bld in that way.
> 
> ...



Well said.


----------



## ChickenWrap (Feb 3, 2015)

JemFish said:


> The lines between pigs squealing and so-called 'music' have been blurred.



Have you every tried metal singing/screaming?? It requires so much more talent than you would imagine. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it "sounds like pigs squealing."

As I am typing this, I am enjoying blasting some pigs screaming, actually!


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## JemFish (Feb 3, 2015)

ChickenWrap said:


> Have you every tried metal singing/screaming?? It requires so much more talent than you would imagine. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it "sounds like pigs squealing."
> 
> As I am typing this, I am enjoying blasting some pigs screaming, actually!



Yes, I admit that not everyone can squeal like a pig, so I guess metal does require some talent.


----------



## sneaklyfox (Feb 3, 2015)

Wow, intro thread turns into heated debate. I think the topic needs to be edited to properly reflect the direction of this thread.

Aaaanyway... let's see where you are in 6 months from now.


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## JemFish (Feb 3, 2015)

sneaklyfox said:


> Wow, intro thread turns into heated debate. I think the topic needs to be edited to properly reflect the direction of this thread.
> 
> Aaaanyway... let's see where you are in 6 months from now.



Nah it's OK, and you can check out my update to the thread. This thread can just be the "JemFish Chat Lounge" so feel free to post whatever whenever.


----------



## Dene (Feb 3, 2015)

kclejeune said:


> Go play any major concerto for strings and tell me that again.



Metal can always one-up you. Add in some ripping electric guitars, some hardcore drumming, and a solid vocalist, and you have yourself there some seriously badass metal.


----------



## tseitsei (Feb 3, 2015)

JemFish said:


> I've noticed a trend. A lot of the 'pros' tell little people like me that I "have no idea how hard it is to be a world class cuber." Are you afraid of me or what? You only have the right to tell me to have "more actions/results and less talk" if you watch me every day and see how I'm doing. But no, you don't. Anyway, because of school, I only get about an hour of cubing practice a day, and on weekends I get 3-5 hours. Now instead of picking on me, why don't you, a pro, tell me if that's a good amount of practice or not?



No I don't think (m)any "pro" BLD cubers are afraid of you  To me you are just another guy starting to learn BLD, but I think your attitude is s**t. Don't go bragging around and being so sure that you will beat Maskows and Ollies times while currently your 3bld PB is 2:42 according to your sig. 

I mean that there is nothing wrong with wanting to be the best but you should be a little less arrogant about that while you have no results to back up the claims that you WILL be able to do it. I really don't like people who try to brag with their skills if they actually don't have those skills they claim to have. It's perfectly okay to be very proud and even brag with your achievements (IMO) if you actually have the skills to back it up, BUT if you open your mouth to brag you better be able to back it up with some results.
In other words I think it should go in this order:
1) results
2) then the words
instead of
1) lots of words
2) maybe some results later

Also I definitely have the right to tell you "More results and less talk" because you are talking about being the best of the best while your 3BLD PB is sup-2min... 

As for the practise amounts. I think that highly depends on the individual. I practise 1-3 hour a day when I am actually trying to really improve my times (usually during holidays because I have more time) but now it is more like 0min-45min depending on the day (usually ~25-30min. 3 4BLD solves and 10 3BLD solves) because that seems to be enough to keep my current speed and not getting any slower. Plus I try to do at least 1-2 MBLD attempts/per week. Lately only 1 sadly... But when I actively practised that last time (christmas holidays) I did 5-7 attempts/per week and got some nice progress. So yeah I would say 1h/day during week and more on weekends is quite good 

My other tips for practising would be learning comms as soon as possible and doing lots of sighted solves with them also. Learning good words for EVERY letter pair. Don't be afraid to DNF, you should just constantly force yourself to memo faster.


> Take a look at sneaklyfox's quote. And about gymnastics and somersaults, there's no point in getting too technical, because after all, *I'm trying to give an example of the relative difficulty of progress of different skills*, not do some calculation of the 'worth' of an hour's practice.



Well I think that is quite impossible as well. First of all because that greatly varies from person to person. Someone might be good at sports and pick up sports skills much faster than music skills and vice versa. Also Eschers post was good :tu . As he tried to explain it is much more complicated than just saying "Piano is 3 times as hard as cubing".


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## ryanj92 (Feb 3, 2015)

tseitsei said:


> Well I think that is quite impossible as well. First of all because that greatly varies from person to person. Someone might be good at sports and pick up sports skills much faster than music skills and vice versa. Also Eschers post was good . As he tried to explain it is much more complicated than just saying "Piano is 3 times as hard as cubing".


I interpret it this way - there are much fewer people fully invested in 3BLD than piano, and therefore breaking the 'world class' barrier is less difficult. As an example, it took me basically 1 year to go from being a total clock noob to being pretty much world class. If I had injected that time into 3x3x3 practise instead, I doubt I would have reached sub-12, never mind sub-9/8, wherever the world class barrier is now... I don't agree with attaching somewhat arbitrary numbers to it (because as you said, people learn different things at different rates), but I think that's the sentiment.


----------



## AlphaSheep (Feb 3, 2015)

I've been watching this music debate with interest, and it sounds like there's only one person in this thread who has any idea what heavy metal actually is... Which rap or hip hop artist regularly works with a choir and live orchestra? I've never heard of any, yet more than half my favourite metal bands have heavy symphonic influences in their music. 

Going to leave some light listening...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDe0cXJc-kw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_nL54jTSgM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJt1rdFZXlY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uN3yqMr3ffY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DymceY5CowE


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## tseitsei (Feb 3, 2015)

ryanj92 said:


> I interpret it this way - there are much fewer people fully invested in 3BLD than piano, and therefore breaking the 'world class' barrier is less difficult. As an example, it took me basically 1 year to go from being a total clock noob to being pretty much world class. If I had injected that time into 3x3x3 practise instead, I doubt I would have reached sub-12, never mind sub-9/8, wherever the world class barrier is now... I don't agree with attaching somewhat arbitrary numbers to it (because as you said, people learn different things at different rates), but I think that's the sentiment.



Yeah this is probably what he meant. But IMO this "world-class barrier" doesn't mean one hobby/action/event is easier/harder than the other. That just means there are more people who practise the said hobby/action/event seriously. For example football has the most players in the world out of all sports --> It is harder to be a world-class football player than let's say world-class ice hockey player BUT I wouldn't say that it means that football is any "harder" game to learn than ice hockey. It just means that more people have learned to play football well than ice hockey.


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## JemFish (Feb 3, 2015)

tseitsei said:


> No I don't think (m)any "pro" BLD cubers are afraid of you  To me you are just another guy starting to learn BLD, but I think your attitude is s**t. Don't go bragging around and being so sure that you will beat Maskows and Ollies times while currently your 3bld PB is 2:42 according to your sig.
> 
> I mean that there is nothing wrong with wanting to be the best but you should be a little less arrogant about that while you have no results to back up the claims that you WILL be able to do it. I really don't like people who try to brag with their skills if they actually don't have those skills they claim to have. It's perfectly okay to be very proud and even brag with your achievements (IMO) if you actually have the skills to back it up, BUT if you open your mouth to brag you better be able to back it up with some results.
> In other words I think it should go in this order:
> ...



Wow, thanks tseitsei! I read it word-for-word and it was definitely worth it. Hmm...'confidence,' to me, looks like 'bragging,' to others. I would like to continue to argue, but I'll just shut up because I've learnt an important lesson: everyone uses different dictionaries! (Check this out.) And thanks for the tips - I really need to hammer my letter pairs right now.

P.S. Since you've stepped down from your throne to help me, that gives me a reason to make this post nice and humble. Let's just say our argument ends here. (Wait...was that bragging? Hmm...)



AlphaSheep said:


> I've been watching this music debate with interest, and it sounds like there's only one person in this thread who has any idea what heavy metal actually is...



I wouldn't want to know, anyway.


----------



## DeeDubb (Feb 3, 2015)

Well, you're good at starting a hot thread, so that's something.

I just have a couple of recommendations.

1. Keep the cockiness in this thread. Please don't step on other people's accomplishments with "I'm coming for you" (as you did in the recent Maskow video). They've earned the chance for attention, and deflecting it to yourself is very rude.

2. Remember that most of the best cubers aren't posting on here, because they are busy practicing. If you want to catch up, you'll need to do the same.

As for the music "debate", personally, I don't judge music by genre. I don't assume I'll like/dislike anything simply because of how it's classified. There's some heavy metal I find terrible, and some that I really love. Pretty similar with other genres.

Also, having a debate about what is good and bad music is so subjective that there's really no point. There's no point in telling someone else that they enjoy something inferior. If they enjoy it, that's all that matters.


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## tseitsei (Feb 3, 2015)

JemFish said:


> P.S. Since you've stepped down from your throne to help me, that gives me a reason to make this post nice and humble. Let's just say our argument ends here. (Wait...was that bragging? Hmm...)
> 
> 
> 
> [/SIZE][/FONT]





Glad I could help.

And I'm ok to with ending this argument here.

But I have to say that I don't have a "throne" to step down from  There are still many people that are better than me even in my best events (IIRC 20. world rank is my best in 4BLD)... Also I don't mind sharing the information/skills I have gathered during these years with others  I know I won't be the best in the world anyway in any event ever...


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## JemFish (Feb 3, 2015)

DeeDubb said:


> Well, you're good at starting a hot thread, so that's something.
> 
> I just have a couple of recommendations.
> 
> ...



No comment.



tseitsei said:


> Glad I could help.
> 
> And I'm ok to with ending this argument here.
> 
> But I have to say that I don't have a "throne" to step down from  There are still many people that are better than me even in my best events (IIRC 20. world rank is my best in 4BLD)... Also I don't mind sharing the information/skills I have gathered during these years with others  I know I won't be the best in the world anyway in any event ever...



Thanks! And I'm sure your really good.


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## Dene (Feb 3, 2015)

AlphaSheep said:


> I've been watching this music debate with interest, and it sounds like there's only one person in this thread who has any idea what heavy metal actually is... Which rap or hip hop artist regularly works with a choir and live orchestra? I've never heard of any, yet more than half my favourite metal bands have heavy symphonic influences in their music.
> 
> Going to leave some light listening...
> 
> ...



I must say I'm no metallica fan, but that was totally badass! Thanks for backing up my empty words with cold-hard evidence.


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## pappas (Feb 3, 2015)

Wow this thread has gotten out of hand. 
Jemfish, sounds like you have the motivation and confidence already. Just do what you enjoy and have fun while doing it. We're a small community here. No need to attack other people.


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## kcl (Feb 3, 2015)

JemFish said:


> I've noticed a trend. A lot of the 'pros' tell little people like me that I "have no idea how hard it is to be a world class cuber." Are you afraid of me or what? You only have the right to tell me to have "more actions/results and less talk" if you watch me every day and see how I'm doing. But no, you don't. Anyway, because of school, I only get about an hour of cubing practice a day, and on weekends I get 3-5 hours. Now instead of picking on me, why don't you, a pro, tell me if that's a good amount of practice or not?
> 
> 
> ~ JemFish




oh boy. We're trying to tell you this because it's factual. I'm not scared of you, and neither is anybody else here. Your amount of practice is fine, and I'm sure you'll improve nicely, but you need to understand we're not going to lie in your face and tell you you're going to be something great, because we really don't know that with any certainty. I became arguably "world class" faster than most people, and it was damn difficult. I did hours of practice daily (ask anybody who knew me on the forums during my first year or so, they'll tell you I was insane and obsessed), and even now, two years later, I'm only really good at 3-4 events. I know you compared it to Piano, but really there's not a ratio of practice time. I'm a musician as well, and I guarantee that this 'ratio', if it even exists, varies drastically from person to person. It depends on the amount of dedication, practice, etc. However, please don't let this discourage you. Practice hard and I'm sure you'll get there. /endrant

TL;DR
We aren't kidding. Getting world class isn't easy.

edit: ok the post I quoted here was older than I realized and you have resolved some of this. I'll leave it up cause my point stays the same.


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## Tim Major (Feb 4, 2015)

AlphaSheep said:


> I've been watching this music debate with interest, and it sounds like there's only one person in this thread who has any idea what heavy metal actually is... Which rap or hip hop artist regularly works with a choir and live orchestra? I've never heard of any, yet more than half my favourite metal bands have heavy symphonic influences in their music.
> 
> Going to leave some light listening...
> 
> ...



There has definitely been some, for example http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hard_Road:_Restrung

I'm not sure why violin is considered to need more skill than other instruments though.


----------



## rybaby (Feb 4, 2015)

DeeDubb said:


> Well, you're good at starting a hot thread, so that's something.
> 
> I just have a couple of recommendations.
> 
> ...



+1 for Dan's wisdom. 

I just think saying you're a "potential threat" at this stage is very cocky. I think it's great that you're so passionate about BLD, and I wish you the best of luck. But remember, there are a lot of fast people around. In my opinion, cube because you enjoy it, not because you want to dominate the world. At this stage, don't compare yourself to other people -- focus on beating your own PBs and enjoying yourself in the process.


----------



## JemFish (Feb 4, 2015)

pappas said:


> Wow this thread has gotten out of hand.
> Jemfish, sounds like you have the motivation and confidence already. Just do what you enjoy and have fun while doing it. We're a small community here. No need to attack other people.



You're right.



kclejeune said:


> oh boy. We're trying to tell you this because it's factual. I'm not scared of you, and neither is anybody else here. Your amount of practice is fine, and I'm sure you'll improve nicely, but you need to understand we're not going to lie in your face and tell you you're going to be something great, because we really don't know that with any certainty. I became arguably "world class" faster than most people, and it was damn difficult. I did hours of practice daily (ask anybody who knew me on the forums during my first year or so, they'll tell you I was insane and obsessed), and even now, two years later, I'm only really good at 3-4 events. I know you compared it to Piano, but really there's not a ratio of practice time. I'm a musician as well, and I guarantee that this 'ratio', if it even exists, varies drastically from person to person. It depends on the amount of dedication, practice, etc. However, please don't let this discourage you. Practice hard and I'm sure you'll get there. /endrant
> 
> TL;DR
> We aren't kidding. Getting world class isn't easy.
> ...



Nice post! I like how everyone's tone is changing, and thanks for the warning/encouragement.



rybaby said:


> +1 for Dan's wisdom.
> 
> I just think saying you're a "potential threat" at this stage is very cocky. I think it's great that you're so passionate about BLD, and I wish you the best of luck. But remember, there are a lot of fast people around. In my opinion, cube because you enjoy it, not because you want to dominate the world. At this stage, don't compare yourself to other people -- focus on beating your own PBs and enjoying yourself in the process.



You're absolutely right, but here's the thing: I didn't even mean to be cocky. I was just strengthening my bricks of confidence with cement, that's all, but thanks for lending me your shoes anyway.


----------



## penguinz7 (Feb 4, 2015)

Small off-topic question, what does "lending me your shoes mean"?


----------



## JemFish (Feb 4, 2015)

penguinz7 said:


> Small off-topic question, what does "lending me your shoes mean"?



AKA "giving me your opinion."

*EDIT*: No, on second thought, it's more like "giving me your perspective."


----------



## sneaklyfox (Feb 4, 2015)

I can tell you from personal experience since I have played violin as well as a host of other instruments like piano, oboe, trombone, and guitar (I won't name all of them) that violin (or other similar string instrument) is definitely harder. I don't know if it's appropriate to start a debate here why I think violin is hardest. Perhaps we should start a new thread in the off topic forum if this continues. Anyway, here's just a few points to consider:
- Accurate finger placement to play in tune. If you compare with guitar, let's say, a guitar has frets so no need to worry too much EXACTLY where you put your fingers.
- If you don't play a stringed instrument, try making a nice tone or even a normal sounding tone. Most beginners would start off with squeaks. Compare that with piano, which even my babies can play just by wiggling a finger and randomly putting a hand down.
- Notes getting louder and vibrating. Once you put your finger down on a piano key, you really can't do much to change the way it sounds even if you imagine that you can. With violin, you have to be in total control at every moment in time you are playing that note to make it sound exactly the way you want.

Ok, that's three points. Enough points. I'm sure I could add a lot more points.

Regarding the heavy metal, I'll change what I said before. *Some* heavy metal does not classify as music in my books, namely the screaming-as-loud-as-possible kind which is usually the first thing I think of when I think of heavy metal. Ok, it's not all like that I know. You're right, Dene. It IS music. But my real and full opinion on heavy metal is actually much stronger than a simple dislike of a music genre. But I don't think I will bring that up here as I don't see a point in offending people on a cubing forum, especially when I don't see that anything good would come of it.


----------



## DeeDubb (Feb 4, 2015)

JemFish said:


> You're right.
> 
> 
> You're absolutely right, but here's the thing: I didn't even mean to be cocky. I was just strengthening my bricks of confidence with cement, that's all, but thanks for lending me your shoes anyway.



It's fine, just keep it out of other people's accomplishment threads please. That's all I'm saying. They've earned their moment to shine, and saying "I'm coming for you" intentionally or unintentionally attempts to steal their spotlight.


----------



## IRNjuggle28 (Feb 4, 2015)

Can't decide if I love your attitude or hate it, lol. I like how motivated you seem, but take what Dan said to heart. I want you to kick ass at BLD anyway, so good luck. :tu


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## Dene (Feb 4, 2015)

sneaklyfox said:


> Regarding the heavy metal, I'll change what I said before. *Some* heavy metal does not classify as music in my books, namely the screaming-as-loud-as-possible kind which is usually the first thing I think of when I think of heavy metal. Ok, it's not all like that I know. You're right, Dene. It IS music. But my real and full opinion on heavy metal is actually much stronger than a simple dislike of a music genre. But I don't think I will bring that up here as I don't see a point in offending people on a cubing forum, especially when I don't see that anything good would come of it.



Lol dw I was only joking about being offended. You'd be hard-pressed to ever offend me... But now I'm curious what you mean about your real reason for hating metal. Tell me


----------



## Ickathu (Feb 4, 2015)

Escher said:


> More seriously, putting 10,000 hours of practise into piano or into 3BLD either way doesn't matter at all *unless you get enjoyment from skill acquisition. Your relative position in the pack of people who engage in the same activity is unimportant*. At 3bld it is still conceivable that any individual could put in thousands of hours of deliberate practise and shape their entire person around the skill and become the best, at least for a short while. Just because in piano (a several-hundred year-old 'hobby') no one individual can have confidence that they could work multiple thousands of hours and become 'the best', it doesn't detract anything from that effort, nor make it comparable to 3bld in that way.



This. Just enjoy it, whatever "it" may be. 



AlphaSheep said:


> Which rap or hip hop artist regularly works with a choir and live orchestra? I've never heard of any, yet more than half my favourite metal bands have heavy symphonic influences in their music.



I'm not saying that rap or hip hop are _better _than orchestra (or heavy metal, or ANY music genre for that matter). To be honest, my favorite thing to listen to is probably violin or piano solos (1 person, not an orchestra). But I don't necessarily want to listen to that all the time.
It's hard to quantify the amount of skill something requires. Does heavy metal require more skill than playing the flute? Maybe, maybe not. Does hip hop require more skill than squealing like a pig? Maybe, maybe not.
But who cares what requires more skill?
If you like to listen to it, then don't worry about what other people think. I like CHH and CCM (Christian hip hop and Christian contemporary music); I like piano and violin; I like acapella; etc. If you don't like it, or if you think that it requires no musical talent whatsoever, I really don't care. I'm going to continue to listen to it, because _I_ like listening to it.



DeeDubb said:


> As for the music "debate", personally, I don't judge music by genre. I don't assume I'll like/dislike anything simply because of how it's classified. There's some heavy metal I find terrible, and some that I really love. Pretty similar with other genres.
> 
> Also, having a debate about what is good and bad music is so subjective that there's really no point. There's no point in telling someone else that they enjoy something inferior. If they enjoy it, that's all that matters.



Both good points. (Also, ninja'd)


JemFish, I think I said this earlier, but keep up your attitude. It's cocky, but confident-cocky, not look-at-me-I'm-the-best-cocky. Even if you are the best, you don't want to have that attitude. Stay confident. And don't worry about offending people. Here's a great post by Julien Smith (NSFW): link.


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## JemFish (Feb 5, 2015)

sneaklyfox said:


> [Concerning the] accurate finger placement [of playing a violin] to play in tune. If you compare with guitar, let's say, a guitar has frets so no need to worry too much EXACTLY where you put your fingers.



This is probably the hardest thing about violin, although I can't say for sure because I've never played instruments from the violin family. (Same goes for the trombone, except that it's the length of the whatever-you-call-it rather than finger placement.) For people who can't hear in-tune and out-of-tune notes, this one thing makes MANY violin players horrible. And I mean horrible. It's not worth going to a violin recital if there aren't any professionals. And even still, many professionals play out-of-tune anyway.

Violin (and trombone) are only extremely hard if you can't hear in-tune and out-of-tune notes, and you wouldn't even notice which makes it worse. Musical violin players and non-musical violin players will contrast black-and-white just by listening to their in-tuneness. For a violinist to play along with other instruments, he/she would probably also need at least absolute pitch.

Life is easy for pianists concerning pitch, but there are many other things which balance out difficulty...

ANYWAY, this is a cubing forum. Enough of music (for now).



DeeDubb said:


> It's fine, just keep it out of other people's accomplishment threads please. That's all I'm saying. They've earned their moment to shine, and saying "I'm coming for you" intentionally or unintentionally attempts to steal their spotlight.



OK



IRNjuggle28 said:


> Can't decide if I love your attitude or hate it, lol. I like how motivated you seem, but take what Dan said to heart. I want you to kick ass at BLD anyway, so good luck. :tu



Well after all, I'm human, and humans aren't perfect. Love my attitude and hate my attitude.



Ickathu said:


> Just enjoy it, whatever "it" may be.



I will.



Ickathu said:


> I'm not saying that rap or hip hop are _better _than orchestra (or heavy metal, or ANY music genre for that matter). To be honest, my favorite thing to listen to is probably violin or piano solos (1 person, not an orchestra). But I don't necessarily want to listen to that all the time.
> It's hard to quantify the amount of skill something requires. Does heavy metal require more skill than playing the flute? Maybe, maybe not. Does hip hop require more skill than squealing like a pig? Maybe, maybe not.
> But who cares what requires more skill?
> If you like to listen to it, then don't worry about what other people think. I like CHH and CCM (Christian hip hop and Christian contemporary music); I like piano and violin; I like acapella; etc. If you don't like it, or if you think that it requires no musical talent whatsoever, I really don't care. I'm going to continue to listen to it, because _I_ like listening to it.



You're absolutely right. Who cares if rapping doesn't even require half the skill of playing piano? It's fun!



Ickathu said:


> JemFish, I think I said this earlier, but keep up your attitude. It's cocky, but confident-cocky, not look-at-me-I'm-the-best-cocky. Even if you are the best, you don't want to have that attitude. Stay confident. And don't worry about offending people. Here's a great post by Julien Smith (NSFW): link.



You're right. And that was a great post by the way, although I didn't read the entire thing. (Not too happy about all the f-words though.)

~ JemFish


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## sneaklyfox (Feb 5, 2015)

Dene said:


> Lol dw I was only joking about being offended. You'd be hard-pressed to ever offend me... But now I'm curious what you mean about your real reason for hating metal. Tell me



Oh... well that's good I didn't actually offend you anyway. But no, I still think it's better not to say on a cubing forum. It wouldn't change anything and I don't want to argue about it.



JemFish said:


> This is probably the hardest thing about violin, although I can't say for sure because I've never played instruments from the violin family. (Same goes for the trombone, except that it's the length of the whatever-you-call-it rather than finger placement.) For people who can't hear in-tune and out-of-tune notes, this one thing makes MANY violin players horrible. And I mean horrible. It's not worth going to a violin recital if there aren't any professionals. And even still, many professionals play out-of-tune anyway.
> 
> Violin (and trombone) are only extremely hard if you can't hear in-tune and out-of-tune notes, and you wouldn't even notice which makes it worse. Musical violin players and non-musical violin players will contrast black-and-white just by listening to their in-tuneness. For a violinist to play along with other instruments, he/she would probably also need at least absolute pitch.



I'm not sure I would say that playing in tune is the hardest thing about playing the violin though it's always a concern with most any left hand technique. The right bow hand actually requires a lot of skill, more than one might think, and is usually what separates the musical players from the unmusical players. But I guess this depends on your definition of "being musical". But the ability to hear what in-tuneness is or how finely in tune you are is exactly what makes teaching violin so difficult for me. I'm EXTREMELY picky about being in tune. Even though I often have to lower my standards in a lesson so I can teach other useful violin technique, I still usually find myself continually shouting "YOU'RE FLAT!" or "YOU'RE SHARP!"... "HIGHER!"... "LOWER!" at my students. Makes for a really boring lesson but sometimes I just can't stand the really bad notes!

I would think that having absolute pitch is worse because what if, say, a piano is slightly out of tune then you would feel really off. I also wonder what people with absolute pitch do when it comes to different keys because of temper. I have relative pitch, which I think is much more useful.


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## JemFish (Feb 6, 2015)

sneaklyfox said:


> I'm not sure I would say that playing in tune is the hardest thing about playing the violin though it's always a concern with most any left hand technique. The right bow hand actually requires a lot of skill, more than one might think, and is usually what separates the musical players from the unmusical players. But I guess this depends on your definition of "being musical". But the ability to hear what in-tuneness is or how finely in tune you are is exactly what makes teaching violin so difficult for me. I'm EXTREMELY picky about being in tune. Even though I often have to lower my standards in a lesson so I can teach other useful violin technique, I still usually find myself continually shouting "YOU'RE FLAT!" or "YOU'RE SHARP!"... "HIGHER!"... "LOWER!" at my students. Makes for a really boring lesson but sometimes I just can't stand the really bad notes!
> 
> I would think that having absolute pitch is worse because what if, say, a piano is slightly out of tune then you would feel really off. I also wonder what people with absolute pitch do when it comes to different keys because of temper. I have relative pitch, which I think is much more useful.



Oh! I didn't think that the bow required a lot of skill; that's interesting. Well, my definition of "being musical" covers a LOT of things, but hearing in-tuneness is one of the big ones. Another one is rhythm. Some people just CAN'T clap in time with music, no matter how hard they try; watching them is like torture. Anyway, I don't want to offend anyone...

*EDIT*: For violinists without (at least) relative pitch, playing in tune would be the hardest thing. For violinist with (at least) relative pitch, bowing would be harder.

Yeah, I guess having perfect or absolute pitch would be quite sad, but your standards would (in terms of pitch) be higher than other people. I can't decide whether perfect or absolute pitch is a good thing or not, but it doesn't really matter; I'm quite satisfied with relative pitch. (Wait - the meaning of 'relative pitch' is basically being able to hear in-tuneness.)

I love cubing forums - so much music.

*EDIT*: I was listening to the iTunes radio when I found this prelude. It's absolutely beautiful! Good old Chopin will always be my favourite. Also, try to find another artist if you can; I don't like it when Martha Argerich plays Chopin, but that's all I could find. (That was random.)


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## sneaklyfox (Feb 6, 2015)

JemFish said:


> Oh! I didn't think that the bow required a lot of skill; that's interesting. Well, my definition of "being musical" covers a LOT of things, but hearing in-tuneness is one of the big ones. Another one is rhythm. Some people just CAN'T clap in time with music, no matter how hard they try; watching them is like torture. Anyway, I don't want to offend anyone...
> 
> *EDIT*: For violinists without (at least) relative pitch, playing in tune would be the hardest thing. For violinist with (at least) relative pitch, bowing would be harder.
> 
> ...



Oh yes, the bow does require a lot of skill to play well but it's more subjective and more dependent on interpretation. For playing in tune, either you're right or you're wrong. I will attempt to explain a bit more about the bow. There are just so many variables at every point in time that depend on each other to some degree and need to be finely controlled : speed, pressure, angle, placement relative to the bridge, etc... and meanwhile where the bow touches the string is always changing. For pressure, all your fingers have to work together to give the right type of pressure. And the thing is it's not so easy to practice slowly because you will run out of bow. And then there are techniques like spiccato which requires you to do it at speed and be able to control the way the bow bounces off the string. The tone you are trying to create can change in so many different ways because there are so many variables. So it's hardly ever exactly the same so you have to listen very carefully to so many more changes to know how you should play the next note.

When I say "being musical", I am talking about interpretation as opposed to "being technical". For example, what is a tasteful rubato? Playing steadily and with proper rhythm is hard for some people. Playing rubato must be a headache for them. When you make a crescendo of four notes, how much louder should each succeeding note be? Unmusical musicians don't really know how to play rubato properly, change dynamics properly, play rit. or accel., breathe and phrase nicely, shape their lines well, and all such stuff, etc. etc.

Nice Chopin prelude. I'm a romantic as well.


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## JemFish (Feb 9, 2015)

sneaklyfox said:


> Oh yes, the bow does require a lot of skill to play well but it's more subjective and more dependent on interpretation. For playing in tune, either you're right or you're wrong. I will attempt to explain a bit more about the bow. There are just so many variables at every point in time that depend on each other to some degree and need to be finely controlled : speed, pressure, angle, placement relative to the bridge, etc... and meanwhile where the bow touches the string is always changing. For pressure, all your fingers have to work together to give the right type of pressure. And the thing is it's not so easy to practice slowly because you will run out of bow. And then there are techniques like spiccato which requires you to do it at speed and be able to control the way the bow bounces off the string. The tone you are trying to create can change in so many different ways because there are so many variables. So it's hardly ever exactly the same so you have to listen very carefully to so many more changes to know how you should play the next note.



Thanks for opening my eyes to the reality of bowing! I sort of guessed about the things you said when I saw violinists/cellists at concerts, but I didn't think that it was that complicated. Would you say that there are more possibilities for interpretation on violin than piano? So many variables would give a lot of flexibility (and open doors for creativity), too, I think.



sneaklyfox said:


> When I say "being musical", I am talking about interpretation as opposed to "being technical". For example, what is a tasteful rubato? Playing steadily and with proper rhythm is hard for some people. Playing rubato must be a headache for them. When you make a crescendo of four notes, how much louder should each succeeding note be? Unmusical musicians don't really know how to play rubato properly, change dynamics properly, play rit. or accel., breathe and phrase nicely, shape their lines well, and all such stuff, etc. etc.



I agree. A great musician is one who is musical, and yet puts a lot of effort into 'being technical'. I see that you're musical just by reading what you write. I am too, but I'm not brilliant because my skills are a bit lacking on the technical side; the result of too much cubing and too little piano practice, hehe...


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## kcl (Feb 9, 2015)

I played violin for years, and Sneaklyfox is entirely correct. If your bow has bad technique you get a bad sound. If your left hand has bad technique, you're out of tune. I have relative pitch as well, and I believe it's far more advantageous because of the fact that intonation is a relative thing. For example, the US generally tunes pianos to A 440. In Europe they go up to 441-443. Absolute/perfect pitch would make that drive a person crazy, while relative pitch allows the player to adapt. It works the same way with an out of tune piano for accompaniment. The violin tunes to the piano because the intonation is relative. 

In terms of musicality, I have a great example. My mom once had a student who was one of the most technically advanced players I've ever heard. He could power through any major concerto with ease, and yet I couldn't stand listening to him play. He had no life in his playing, and was pure technique. If he had taken the music and shaped it to be his own, he would've been much easier to listen to.


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## sneaklyfox (Feb 10, 2015)

JemFish said:


> Thanks for opening my eyes to the reality of bowing! I sort of guessed about the things you said when I saw violinists/cellists at concerts, but I didn't think that it was that complicated. Would you say that there are more possibilities for interpretation on violin than piano? So many variables would give a lot of flexibility (and open doors for creativity), too, I think.
> 
> I agree. A great musician is one who is musical, and yet puts a lot of effort into 'being technical'. I see that you're musical just by reading what you write. I am too, but I'm not brilliant because my skills are a bit lacking on the technical side; the result of too much cubing and too little piano practice, hehe...



I guess in a way there's more possibilities for interpretation. But maybe I think of it more like there are just more details to control. Sometimes playing piano is like having to imagine all the parts that you cannot really control (as you might be able to with a violin) to create a believable illusion that, for example, all your notes are getting louder at each point in time when in actuality each note begins to fade away as soon as you play it.

I guess I'm kind of like you. I didn't put quite enough time and effort into technique. One of my teachers put it this way: Technique gives you the tools you need, but music tells you want to do with the tools.



kclejeune said:


> I played violin for years, and Sneaklyfox is entirely correct. If your bow has bad technique you get a bad sound. If your left hand has bad technique, you're out of tune. I have relative pitch as well, and I believe it's far more advantageous because of the fact that intonation is a relative thing. For example, the US generally tunes pianos to A 440. In Europe they go up to 441-443. Absolute/perfect pitch would make that drive a person crazy, while relative pitch allows the player to adapt. It works the same way with an out of tune piano for accompaniment. The violin tunes to the piano because the intonation is relative.


Yes, kclejeune has explained that quite well and was exactly what I was thinking.



kclejeune said:


> In terms of musicality, I have a great example. My mom once had a student who was one of the most technically advanced players I've ever heard. He could power through any major concerto with ease, and yet I couldn't stand listening to him play. He had no life in his playing, and was pure technique. If he had taken the music and shaped it to be his own, he would've been much easier to listen to.


I've run into this many times. It's easy... just tell anyone to play the 2nd movement of a concerto (or some other slow piece) and you'll know whether he's musical or not. You might be able to listen to a fast movement played with dazzling technique but they have no idea what to do when they come across a slow movementl. Sometimes when I went to concerts, a very technical-unmusical player would perform. Afterwards the other people in the audience would comment on how wonderful the performance was (because they are dazzled by technique and flying fingers). I never know what to say in response so I mostly say nothing because I tend to keep my negative criticism to myself. What would you say?


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## JemFish (Feb 23, 2015)

sneaklyfox said:


> I guess in a way there's more possibilities for interpretation. But maybe I think of it more like there are just more details to control.



I think this is either a wonderful or terrible thing depending on the musician.



sneaklyfox said:


> Sometimes playing piano is like having to imagine all the parts that you cannot really control (as you might be able to with a violin) to create a believable illusion that, for example, all your notes are getting louder at each point in time when in actuality each note begins to fade away as soon as you play it.



You're right about the illusion...I have never actually thought about that before except this one time when a jazz teacher told me to pretend I was playing a trombone, making a certain chord appear - haha, appear - to get louder before it collapsed into the next chord. Also, there is a similar spot in one of my exam pieces that I try to make that illusion you talked about.



sneaklyfox said:


> I guess I'm kind of like you. I didn't put quite enough time and effort into technique. One of my teachers put it this way: Technique gives you the tools you need, but music tells you want to do with the tools.



I'm going to use that quote from now on...



sneaklyfox said:


> Yes, kclejeune has explained that quite well and was exactly what I was thinking.
> 
> I've run into this many times. It's easy... just tell anyone to play the 2nd movement of a concerto (or some other slow piece) and you'll know whether he's musical or not. You might be able to listen to a fast movement played with dazzling technique but they have no idea what to do when they come across a slow movementl. Sometimes when I went to concerts, a very technical-unmusical player would perform. Afterwards the other people in the audience would comment on how wonderful the performance was (because they are dazzled by technique and flying fingers). I never know what to say in response so I mostly say nothing because I tend to keep my negative criticism to myself. What would you say?



If it was someone who would be offended if I said something negative, I would say "Uh yeah, it was...pretty good" but making sure my facial expression said the opposite.

If it was my piano teacher or a friend/family member, I would say something like "This guy/girl just doesn't _have it_."

But I'm generally not very forgiving when it comes to commenting on music.


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## cmhardw (Feb 23, 2015)

I don't like this idea that someone either "has it" or they "don't" when it comes to musicality, as opposed to technicality. I used to be very involved in music, 1st chair NC All State on Bari sax in 7th grade, 1st Chair All State on Alto sax in 8th grade, the first sophomore in High School to make the Broughton Carolina brass band when normally brass players AND upperclassmen are in the band (2 strikes against me making it in). I also played for a semester in the UNC Chapel Hill lower level jazz band, an audition only band at a school with 40,000 undergrads. I would argue that I am a very musical player, and at one time decently technical.

I _learned_ to be a musical player from my Dad, who used to tutor me on my All State audition pieces, my jazz band pieces, and my music practice in general. He was very supportive, but very honest in his feedback to me. If I played something technically, but not musically, he would tell me that it sounded boring (but well played). He would also give me advice on how to make it sound more musical.

Saying that someone either "is" or "is not" musical end-of-story-your-life-as-a-musician-will-either-be-wonderful-or-short-lived to me sounds like a load of crap. I'm sure at the world class musician level there is some level of genetic and predisposed ability at work, but for the vast majority of people I truly believe that a high level of musicality can be _taught_ and is not something you either "have" or "don't".

/rant


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## Ickathu (Feb 23, 2015)

cmhardw said:


> I don't like this idea that someone either "has it" or they "don't" when it comes to musicality, as opposed to technicality. I used to be very involved in music, 1st chair NC All State on Bari sax in 7th grade, 1st Chair All State on Alto sax in 8th grade, the first sophomore in High School to make the Broughton Carolina brass band when normally brass players AND upperclassmen are in the band (2 strikes against me making it in). I also played for a semester in the UNC Chapel Hill lower level jazz band, an audition only band at a school with 40,000 undergrads. I would argue that I am a very musical player, and at one time decently technical.
> 
> I _learned_ to be a musical player from my Dad, who used to tutor me on my All State audition pieces, my jazz band pieces, and my music practice in general. He was very supportive, but very honest in his feedback to me. If I played something technically, but not musically, he would tell me that it sounded boring (but well played). He would also give me advice on how to make it sound more musical.
> 
> ...



So true. And not just with music - this applies to anything. I'm not naturally very good at karate - I have horrible balance, weak ankles, tight muscles, etc. because of a neurological disease (Charcot Marie Tooth). But if I just decided that I wasn't good at it, then I'd have quit a long time ago. But instead I decided to work extra hard and push myself to make up for my struggles.

I'm not naturally very good at piano - it's really, really hard for me to do. And I'm pretty terrible at it, but I like it, so I keep playing and I keep improving. Will I ever be as good as Mozart? Probably not, but that's more because I'm not interested in being as good as Mozart. If I wanted to be just as good, I'd minimize cubing, I'd minimize karate, I'd minimize XYZ and just play piano for 10 hours a day.

"Talent" is just an excuse that amateurs use to not improve.


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## sneaklyfox (Feb 23, 2015)

cmhardw said:


> I don't like this idea that someone either "has it" or they "don't" when it comes to musicality, as opposed to technicality. I used to be very involved in music, 1st chair NC All State on Bari sax in 7th grade, 1st Chair All State on Alto sax in 8th grade, the first sophomore in High School to make the Broughton Carolina brass band when normally brass players AND upperclassmen are in the band (2 strikes against me making it in). I also played for a semester in the UNC Chapel Hill lower level jazz band, an audition only band at a school with 40,000 undergrads. I would argue that I am a very musical player, and at one time decently technical.
> 
> I _learned_ to be a musical player from my Dad, who used to tutor me on my All State audition pieces, my jazz band pieces, and my music practice in general. He was very supportive, but very honest in his feedback to me. If I played something technically, but not musically, he would tell me that it sounded boring (but well played). He would also give me advice on how to make it sound more musical.
> 
> ...



Sorry, but I have to disagree. I know it isn't very appealing as a thought though. We all like to think we can attain something if we work hard enough at it, but I think being "musical" is one of those things that doesn't really happen just to work harder at it. It's not that you can't learn to be musical. Maybe I should call it "artistic expression" (what do they call it in figure skating? I forget.) But someone who isn't naturally musical can only get up to a certain level. Beyond that, it's pretty much out of their reach. As a violin and piano teacher, I know there's a big difference between someone who can and someone who can't. For the one who can't, the best I can do is give you my interpretation and coach you on every single little detail I can think of to make you play the way I want. My mom also taught piano and she was actually pretty good at this. She could take a technical player and create simulated musicality. Most people would be fooled, but in the end, it still falls short of the real thing. I don't know how it is playing sax but I imagine that violin, as one of the harder instruments in my opinion, would be harder to simulate well because of all the variables.

And certainly, even for people who aren't terribly musical-minded, it's definitely not an "end-of-story-your-life-as-a-musician-will-either-be-wonderful-or-short-lived" thing. Plenty of professionals are not top notch musical players but have plenty of technique and enough musicality to cut it. They don't really understand the song they're playing very well but make it sound interesting enough. I just wouldn't enjoy listening to them as much as someone else more genuine.


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## Dene (Feb 23, 2015)

sneaklyfox said:


> Sorry, but I have to disagree. I know it isn't very appealing as a thought though. We all like to think we can attain something if we work hard enough at it, but I think being "musical" is one of those things that doesn't really happen just to work harder at it. It's not that you can't learn to be musical. Maybe I should call it "artistic expression" (what do they call it in figure skating? I forget.) But someone who isn't naturally musical can only get up to a certain level. Beyond that, it's pretty much out of their reach. As a violin and piano teacher, I know there's a big difference between someone who can and someone who can't. For the one who can't, the best I can do is give you my interpretation and coach you on every single little detail I can think of to make you play the way I want. My mom also taught piano and she was actually pretty good at this. She could take a technical player and create simulated musicality. Most people would be fooled, but in the end, it still falls short of the real thing. I don't know how it is playing sax but I imagine that violin, as one of the harder instruments in my opinion, would be harder to simulate well because of all the variables.
> 
> And certainly, even for people who aren't terribly musical-minded, it's definitely not an "end-of-story-your-life-as-a-musician-will-either-be-wonderful-or-short-lived" thing. Plenty of professionals are not top notch musical players but have plenty of technique and enough musicality to cut it. They don't really understand the song they're playing very well but make it sound interesting enough. I just wouldn't enjoy listening to them as much as someone else more genuine.



Not that I'm an expert, but it sounds to me like you're saying "I expect 'musicality' to be a particular way, and if people don't do it in that particular way I won't accept them".

It reminds me of people that are big into so-called "modern art". It's all bull crap, but these hippies and druggies are all "yeah man I totally feel the expression of inner pain and anxiety expressed in this pile of feces on a board". 99% of people look at it and go "what the hell". The rest say they're "modern artists".


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## JemFish (Feb 24, 2015)

cmhardw said:


> Saying that someone either "is" or "is not" musical end-of-story-your-life-as-a-musician-will-either-be-wonderful-or-short-lived to me sounds like a load of crap.



It is a load of crap, you're right, but that crap doesn't exist, because...



cmhardw said:


> I'm sure at the world class musician level there is some level of genetic and predisposed ability at work, but for the vast majority of people I truly believe that a high level of musicality can be _taught_ and is not something you either "have" or "don't".



...because you're right about what you said above. What happens, is that everyone has the potential to become professional and be taught a certain amount of musicality, and sure, for a person who - heh, _doesn't have it_ - to get an amazing salary in performing or teaching or whatever is quite possible. They just need to work hard and have a good teacher. But to become incredible you would need to work very hard, and to become super incredible you would need incredible talent as well. But...



Ickathu said:


> I'm not naturally very good at piano - it's really, really hard for me to do. And I'm pretty terrible at it, but I like it, so I keep playing and I keep improving. Will I ever be as good as Mozart? Probably not, but that's more because I'm not interested in being as good as Mozart.



Exactly. For the majority of the musicians who "have it," they don't want to become as good as Mozart anyway.



Ickathu said:


> "Talent" is just an excuse that amateurs use to not improve.



You're quite right and that's one reason why many musicians who "don't have it" are often better (at a lower level) than those who "do have it" because they think that working harder will substitute their lack of "talent."

I guess what I'm saying is that it's not possible for musicians who "don't have it" to learn "it" but that doesn't mean that all musicians that "have it" are better than those who do. After reading cmhardw's and Ickathu's posts, I think there are two type of people who can become "quite amazing." They are:

1. Talented musicians that work decently hard
2. Non-talented musicians that work very hard

These two types of people are seen very much - the main reason being what Ickathu said about talent, and what I said about substituting hard work for talent. I think, for me, that to become quite amazing is enough, because I'm not into performance as much as writing music; but that's a different story. So, we're left with one more kind of musician who becomes incredibly amazing. They are:

Talented musicians that work very (very) hard.

I'm a more-or-less talented musician who doesn't work hard enough, and couldn't care less, to be honest. Like Ickathu, I'm not interested in become as good as Mozart.



sneaklyfox said:


> But someone who isn't naturally musical can only get up to a certain level. Beyond that, it's pretty much out of their reach. As a violin and piano teacher, I know there's a big difference between someone who can and someone who can't. For the one who can't, the best I can do is give you my interpretation and coach you on every single little detail I can think of to make you play the way I want.



This is kind of what has happened to my piano teacher. When I don't practise my technical stuff enough, I'm just not ready to put in too much life just yet, because the music I play will become a mess. So each piano lesson becomes this boring session where my piano teacher (a non-talented one, I'm sad to say) is trying to "help" me with "every single little detail [she] can think of" so that my music has life in it. I'll bet that that's what all her teacher did to her because that was "the best [they could] do" and in the same way she tries to help me like that. Sad. Anyway she remains my piano teacher for reason I won't share on these forums...



sneaklyfox said:


> And certainly, even for people who aren't terribly musical-minded, it's definitely not an "end-of-story-your-life-as-a-musician-will-either-be-wonderful-or-short-lived" thing. Plenty of professionals are not top notch musical players but have plenty of technique and enough musicality to cut it. They don't really understand the song they're playing very well but make it sound interesting enough. I just wouldn't enjoy listening to them as much as someone else more genuine.



Yep, like what I said before.



Dene said:


> Not that I'm an expert, but it sounds to me like you're saying "I expect 'musicality' to be a particular way, and if people don't do it in that particular way I won't accept them".



No...musicality is musicality, and even the quote below that you wrote backfires because...



Dene said:


> It reminds me of people that are big into so-called "modern art". It's all bull crap, but these hippies and druggies are all "yeah man I totally feel the expression of inner pain and anxiety expressed in this pile of feces on a board". 99% of people look at it and go "what the hell". The rest say they're "modern artists".



...because the hippies and druggies are an example of those artists who "don't have it," and it's very plain to even a normal person that a poo-board is (probably) not a work of emotional art. But yes, that sort of art is weeeird.

[Ramble complete.]


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## Dene (Feb 24, 2015)

I think you misunderstood what I said. When I said "hippies and druggies" I was specifically referring to people who do modern or contemporary "art". 

What I have in mind is crap like this. Another example, a friend of mine recently went to an art exhibition, and one work was apparently a big room that had been covered in cling film. I mean, what is that???! It's certainly not art, and it's definitely not expressing anything to anyone that has a normal sense of reality. 

The point I'm trying to make it people have a tendency to try and see something in a work of art (or music) that really isn't there. They then brand it as such (emotive modern art, or _musicality_), and therefore create a relevance which only truly exists within a small group that accept that relevance. To anybody else, it's nothing special, or just plain stupid.


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## JemFish (Feb 25, 2015)

Dene said:


> I think you misunderstood what I said. When I said "hippies and druggies" I was specifically referring to people who do modern or contemporary "art".
> 
> What I have in mind is crap like this. Another example, a friend of mine recently went to an art exhibition, and one work was apparently a big room that had been covered in cling film. I mean, what is that???! It's certainly not art, and it's definitely not expressing anything to anyone that has a normal sense of reality.
> 
> The point I'm trying to make it people have a tendency to try and see something in a work of art (or music) that really isn't there. They then brand it as such (emotive modern art, or _musicality_), and therefore create a relevance which only truly exists within a small group that accept that relevance. To anybody else, it's nothing special, or just plain stupid.



Yeah, I guess you're right - people do often "have a tendency to try and see something in a work of art (or music) that really isn't there." But that's not always the case...


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## Dene (Feb 25, 2015)

Not always, of course. But as far as I'm concerned, unless almost every normal person that experiences a piece of artwork (fine arts, music, theatre, whatever) has the same emotive response, there isn't actually anything there.


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## Roman (Jun 29, 2015)

Haven't been following speedcubing news for a while... Did this kid eventially brake some WRs?


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## Dene (Jun 29, 2015)

Heh good question. I doubt he's had the opportunity (lack of competitions) but I'm interested to hear how far along he has come.


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## Berd (Jun 29, 2015)

I'm guessing he had the 'crash' that everyone told him about haha.


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## Dene (Jun 29, 2015)

Berd said:


> I'm guessing he had the 'crash' that everyone told him about haha.



Now, now, don't judge. Let him speak.


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## Iggy (Jul 3, 2015)

He posted this in the BLD accomplishment thread some time ago

https://www.speedsolving.com/forum/...d-Accomplishment-Thread&p=1082721#post1082721


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## josh42732 (Jul 3, 2015)

Iggy said:


> He posted this in the BLD accomplishment thread some time ago
> 
> https://www.speedsolving.com/forum/...d-Accomplishment-Thread&p=1082721#post1082721



Wow thanks! Now I can sleep at night!


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## JemFish (Jul 4, 2015)

Berd said:


> I'm guessing he had the 'crash' that everyone told him about haha.



Haha...I guess I learnt how NOT to write stupid things and regret them afterwards...the hard way.

So apologies to anyone out there if you were/are annoyed! And apologies to myself for setting unrealistic goals...



My current interests: programming (Java right now), Scrabble, and writing music.


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## Dene (Jul 4, 2015)

JemFish said:


> Haha...I guess I learnt how NOT to write stupid things and regret them afterwards...the hard way.



We all learn the hard way


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