# Last Layer Variations



## koreancuber (Apr 19, 2010)

While learning the ZZ method, I came across the different last layer variations for the method (and other methods). I was kind of wondering which one was the best for speedsolving. According to Speedsolving Wiki, some variants include, OCLL/PLL, COLL/EPLL (ZZ-VH), OCELL/CPLL, ZBLL (ZZ-a), F2LL (Phasing, Winter variation, MGLS and ZZ-Blah (Blah)), MGLS, ZZ-d and ZZ-b are the main known variants. (more info can be found on wiki, here and here). Which one of these variations is the most efficient (in algorithm wise) and most used?
According to 4Chan (by far knows the most algorithms (that I know of)):


4Chan said:


> ZZ-A is most efficient.
> 
> I assume OCLL+PLL is most used, because ZZ-A is kinda hard.



Assuming ZBLL (ZZ-a) is the most efficient way, I researched some information about the ZZ-a variant. 
According to cube.crider.co.uk, 


> Often labelled as the holy grail of speed cubing, this method completes the last layer by orienting the corners and permuting the corners and edges, all in one step. It involves 494 distinct cases, and requires learning a minimum of 177 algorithms assuming mirrors and inverses are applied. Completing the last layer has an average move count of 12.08, which is a significant advantage over the 2-look options.


 The ZZ-a method is very difficult algorithmically (is this a word? Spell check recognized it ). 
Thus, I wanted to ask experienced cubers. Which variation is the most efficient (algorithm-wise) and what does the variant do to the last layer? By the way, this is for the ZZ method. THANKS!


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## Kirjava (Apr 19, 2010)

koreancuber said:


> I was kind of wondering which one was the best




None of them.


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## 4Chan (Apr 19, 2010)

ZZ-A has potential to be the fastest.

But to reach that potential, you're going to have to train, and practice, and work extremely hard. If you try it, you'll see how hard it is.


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## 4Chan (Apr 19, 2010)

Err, I'm done. xD xD

I finished back in November/December.

Here's the only (my)video I know of on the interwebs of ZZ-ZB or ZZ-A.
It *REALLY SUCKS THOUGH. >.o*

Because I suck at ZZ. =/
But I have the 1LLL.


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## 4Chan (Apr 19, 2010)

I "know how to" do it.

I'm just not fast with it.
I prefer pure ZB.


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## koreancuber (Apr 19, 2010)

4Chan said:


> I "know how to" do it.
> 
> I'm just not fast with it.
> I prefer pure ZB.



Hmmmm.. ZB is cross, F2L w/o one pair, ZBF2L and LL?


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## 4Chan (Apr 19, 2010)

Yep yep.
Not move efficient, but I don't have to think.
I just act.


I have to do too much looking and thinking when I ZZ. D: D:
Buuut, when I go for fewest moves with ZZ, I can do entire solves in under 40 turns. 


I have this special technique that goes well with ZZ too!
If you have a 1x1x2 block in LL and you have an empty slot in F2L, you can solve the last layer and the last slot in one algorithm. It's like a guaranteed forced "skip" almost.


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## koreancuber (Apr 19, 2010)

4Chan said:


> Yep yep.
> Not move efficient, but I don't have to think.
> I just act.
> 
> ...



4Chan your crazy.  jk Hmm.... So.... can I do EOLine + F2L minus one slot, ZBF2L and LL?
By the way... YOU KNOW 1LLL?


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## 4Chan (Apr 19, 2010)

You "could", but EOLine really negates ZBF2L.
If you liek F turns, then yeah, you can use ZBF2L if you want.
(Sometimes, I'm more comfortable using ZBF2L cases)

Ummm, I know ZBLL, sooo, as long as edges are oriented, I have a 1LLL.


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## 4Chan (Apr 19, 2010)

Yeppers, most of them.

Here's an example:

R' U' R' U' R' U R U R U2

You can solve this case with all R and U turns, oorrrrrrrrr you can use a ZBF2L case:

U' F' R U R' U' R' F R (I got this from one of Rowan's posts. xD)

(Because you usually don't use F turns.)


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## Dene (Apr 19, 2010)

OLL+PLL, until proven otherwise.


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## 4Chan (Apr 19, 2010)

Different cases have different effects on the corners... but yeah.


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## Kirjava (Apr 19, 2010)

Dene said:


> proven




...lol


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## 4Chan (Apr 19, 2010)

If you're clever, you can cut down on algorithms, and have solve multiple cases with less algorithms.


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## 4Chan (Apr 19, 2010)

Noone ever gave me tips for algorithm memorization. ;_;

I had to figure out things for myself. D: D:


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## koreancuber (Apr 19, 2010)

4Chan said:


> Noone ever gave me tips. ;_;
> 
> I had to figure out things for myself. D: D:



 But your now the master of algs!


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## 4Chan (Apr 19, 2010)

Lol, my times sucks, I'm no master. ;_;

Just look for trends in algorithms. Mirroring, inverting, basic stuff.


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## dannyz0r (Apr 19, 2010)

Edges not corners


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## 4Chan (Apr 19, 2010)

Sort of what Dannyzor said.

It's 1/27 chance for OLL skip with ZBF2L (It does affect corners, knowing multiple cases "can" force corner orientation skip), and straight to PLL.
Even higher if you know some WV.


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## koreancuber (Apr 19, 2010)

dannyz0r said:


> Edges not corners


But I'm using EOLine.... Scratch the ZBF2L. I'm learning the Winter Variation. Then all there's left is PLL. 4Chan, is there a shortcut to this?


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## 4Chan (Apr 19, 2010)

If you look at some of the WV cases, some of them are just OCLLs with a few moves off.
Makes some cases easier to memorize.


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## dannyz0r (Apr 19, 2010)

Might as well go for OCLL and PLL then since they're quick anyway.


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## 4Chan (Apr 19, 2010)

u crzy
.-.


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## koreancuber (Apr 19, 2010)

4Chan said:


> u crzy
> .-.



wat


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## dannyz0r (Apr 19, 2010)

Corner cases would have more algorithms I think.


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## CubesOfTheWorld (Apr 19, 2010)

I voted for F2LL, but I have no experience with this. If you want to count out my vote, just subtract one in your head.


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## Innocence (Apr 19, 2010)

I voted zbll, because it has much potential to be the fastest. Just do what I'm doing, and do COLL+EPLL. It's slightly better movecount-wise than OCLL+PLL, and a stepping stone to ZBLL. When I considered these things, it was between CLS+PLL and COLL+EPLL. I decided that because COLL was fewer algs, part of ZBLL, and more versatile, it would be the better choice. It depends what you want.


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## koreancuber (Apr 19, 2010)

So.... EOLine (intuitive), F2L (intuitive), WV (winter variation 27 algs) and PLL will do right? Hmm.. EOline - around 1~2 seconds (if mastered), F2L (3 pairs, so 6~7 seconds), WV (1 sec) and PLL (2 seconds) is my goal. (Avg. 10) Is there anything better I should do?


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## miniGOINGS (Apr 19, 2010)

koreancuber said:


> Is there anything better I should do?



...learn the method.


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## Athefre (Apr 19, 2010)

I'm interested in finding out the exact move count for ZZ-Blah. It's an interesting idea, but some of the 27 disorientation cases are 7 moves. I wrote down solutions I found for all of them and it came to a 4.5 move average.

It seems that what you should do would depend on the case. Many cases, to have all corners disoriented, are only 3 moves. A few of the WV cases (RU'R', RU2R', L'URU'M'x') would probably be best to do as Winter Variation, and not ZZ-Blah, since they lead to a PLL.


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## maggot (Apr 19, 2010)

4Chan said:


> u crzy
> .-.



Katanashi-kun! can you pick this up? its heavy. can you put this cup on the top shelf? lol


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## 4Chan (Apr 19, 2010)

I love that show already.~


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## koreancuber (Apr 19, 2010)

Athefre said:


> I'm interested in finding out the exact move count for ZZ-Blah. It's an interesting idea, but some of the 27 disorientation cases are 7 moves. I wrote down solutions I found for all of them and it came to a 4.5 move average.
> 
> It seems that what you should do would depend on the case. Many cases, to have all corners disoriented, are only 3 moves. A few of the WV cases (RU'R', RU2R', L'URU'M'x') would probably be best to do as Winter Variation, and not ZZ-Blah, since they lead to a PLL.



Confusion! I just devoted my 1 day on WV!  Your suggesting me todo WV + Blah? Hmm...... IF I decide to do WV + Blah, where would the algorithms be? Which ones?


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## Athefre (Apr 19, 2010)

I don't know where any are, I'm not sure if blah ever made them. I have my solutions written down, but they may not have the shortest average.


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## koreancuber (Apr 19, 2010)

Athefre said:


> I don't know where any are, I'm not sure if blah ever made them. I have my solutions written down, but they may not have the shortest average.



Hmmm.... and how many are there?


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## Athefre (Apr 19, 2010)

It's the same as Winter Variation only you are disorienting the corners, so 27.


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## koreancuber (Apr 19, 2010)

Athefre said:


> It's the same as Winter Variation only you are disorienting the corners, so 27.



Hmmm... so.. WITH mirrors, 108 (54/54 (with mirrors) WV/Blah + PLL/ZZ-a? That would be decent. Does anyone here know the exact move count and number of algs there are in the ZZ-a?


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## 4Chan (Apr 20, 2010)

ZBLL (ZZ-a): Often labelled as the holy grail of speed cubing, this method completes the last layer by orienting the corners and permuting the corners and edges, all in one step. It involves 494 distinct cases, and requires learning a minimum of 177 algorithms assuming mirrors and inverses are applied. Completing the last layer has an average move count of 12.08, which is a significant advantage over the 2-look options.[12]

From your first post. 

For the whole solve, I find between 40-55 turns.


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## 4Chan (Apr 20, 2010)

...I don't think you understand, that's 494 cases *WITH ORIENTATION.*


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## 4Chan (Apr 20, 2010)

Oh noes, not that site.
With determination, and some ingenuity, you can cut that number by roughly 3/5ths, and then learn it in a few months.

Mister Eastamazonantidote generated a full list on the wiki.
(I had to generate my own algs. >.o)

EDIT: If you have an Skype, AIM or a Yahoo IM, I can show you how to do COLL with minimal algorithm memorization.
I can also make a tinychat and tell you some tricks if you want.


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## Edward (Apr 20, 2010)

koreancuber said:


> 4Chan said:
> 
> 
> > Oh noes, not that site.
> ...



Me too D:.


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## 4Chan (Apr 20, 2010)

Okay, so I'll go make a tinychat and then teach you all tricks and how to do COLL in minimal algs.

http://tinychat.com/myshipsails


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## eastamazonantidote (Apr 20, 2010)

Just take a gander at my sig for ZBLL algs (I still get that tingly feeling when people acknowledge my work). I know at least 1 alg there is wrong and a whole set that I changed when I learned it but I don't feel that warrants a bump so I'll wait until I finish bigger things.

Anyway, ZBLL easily has the most potential. COLL + EPLL is incredibly fast. OCLL + PLL is not as practical with the edges oriented. WV recognition is the most difficult part, but if you get through that there should be now problems using that.

As for learning COLL algs, it's easy. Just perform the alg a thousand times or so. Don't look for where the pieces go but rather the sticker colors (Baum has the best description that I've found). I still struggle sometimes with L cases (I forget which stickers to look at). Otherwise recognition might be faster than OCLL recognition. What am I talking about? Just recognizing the sticker colors for the COLL case gives you the OCLL case faster than finding the orientation of the pieces sometimes. Weird...that's my rant for the day


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## Sir E Brum (Apr 20, 2010)

I currently use ZZ-VH (COLL + EPLL) and I love how fast the LL is. 

I have experimented with a way to make ZZ-d work but I don't think it is possible to be done as described here.
However, if it could work, it would probably be the best ZZ variant. This would be due to the fact that the entire right-hand block and LL would be 2-gen.


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## Innocence (Apr 20, 2010)

koreancuber said:


> 4Chan said:
> 
> 
> > Oh noes, not that site.
> ...



Lol. Can Billy come from down the road?

anyway, as much as I care about COLL with minimal algs, 40 really isn't that much, and I already know the U and almost H.


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## 4Chan (Apr 20, 2010)

One tip, for you guize.

Algorithm memorization gets easier over time, keep at it.~


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## 4Chan (Apr 20, 2010)

Lol, idk.
I don't actually "use COLL" and it's hard for me to differentiate ZBLL and COLL, because I use ZBLL so much. D:


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## Cride5 (Apr 21, 2010)

koreancuber said:


> Ok, so EOLine, F2L minus one slot, *ZBF2L* and ZZ-a will be my approach. I'm guessing around 400~500 algorithms?


You don't need ZBF2L if you're using EOLine. ZBF2L is only useful if you're searching for more efficient ways to do the last 1x1x2 block on either side - for example if you don't mind F/B moves, but still want to preserve EO. If you're doing EOLine and using ZBF2L in this way, remember you're only looking at the small subset of ZBF2L cases in which edges are already oriented.



4Chan said:


> Here's the only (my)video I know of on the interwebs of ZZ-ZB or ZZ-A.
> It *REALLY SUCKS THOUGH. >.o*
> 
> Because I suck at ZZ. =/
> ...


BTW, are you still practiciting ZZ at all? One thing I noticed from the video, is that there is a fair bit of looking around the cube during F2L. I used to do that _a lot_, but then I forced myself to stop looking at the D and B sides, and it improved my times quite a bit. If lookahead fails and I can't find anything, I use L/R moves to find new blocks rather than looking at B/D. When my lookahead is actually working properly, that doesn't normally happen 



Innocence said:


> I voted zbll, because it has much potential to be the fastest. Just do what I'm doing, and do COLL+EPLL. It's slightly better movecount-wise than OCLL+PLL, and a stepping stone to ZBLL. When I considered these things, it was between CLS+PLL and COLL+EPLL. I decided that because COLL was fewer algs, part of ZBLL, and more versatile, it would be the better choice. It depends what you want.


Pretty much my thoughts on it. ZBLL is best if you know the algs, and can recognise, recall end execute them all well. I'm experimenting with just a single 12-alg ZBLL set to see if its for me. Its kinda cool using it, but even though its only 12 algs, I still find myself pausing to recognise/recall the algs when a case pops up, where as any COLL or OCLL is pretty much instantaneous. I think the main reason for this is the rarity of each ZBLL case means each alg is used/practised very infrequently compared to COLL's and OCLL's.

For COLL/EPLL vs OCLL/PLL, I personally only use COLL for my slower OCLL cases. The faster OCLL's like the sunes, T and L cases can be executed much faster than my EPLL's, but maybe that's because my EPLL's are just slow


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## 4Chan (Apr 21, 2010)

Between January and March, I only did ZZ, and I didn't improve by a lot, so I went back to ZBF2L.

I'm a noob. )';

Since switching back to ZBF2L, I've gone down to 15 averages of 5 and 17 averages of 12.


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## Sir E Brum (Apr 21, 2010)

koreancuber said:


> 4Chan said:
> 
> 
> > Lol, idk.
> ...



Just practice ZZF2L and do whatever COLL case comes up. It will allow you to work on ZZF2L AND COLL at the same time. In addition, your EPLL algs should get REALLY fast. I use the M-slice ones, they are sexy.


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## miniGOINGS (Apr 21, 2010)

koreancuber said:


> EOLine takes care of EVERYTHING!



Not true. You'll still have to phase if you want to do ZZLL. Otherwise you'll have to learn ZBLL.

EDIT: Oops, you did say ZZ-a. But I would still start with phasing, that way you have very fewer LL cases, and the will all be used once you go to ZZ-a.


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## 4Chan (Apr 21, 2010)

He's planning on ZZ-a, so yeah, he's gonna attempt ZBLL.

.-.


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## miniGOINGS (Apr 21, 2010)

koreancuber said:


> More... algs... so EOLine + F2L + Phasing + COLL/ZZ-a is final, right?



How about:

EOline
F2L
COLL
EPLL

to

EOline
F2L w/phasing
ZZLL

to

EOline
F2L
ZBLL

Aaaand phasing is ridiculously easy to do intuitively.


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## miniGOINGS (Apr 21, 2010)

koreancuber said:


> Oh, I'm already learning the EOLine, F2L and COLL/EPLL.
> 
> Why ZBLL?



ZBLL is 1L EO'd Last Layer (ZZ-a). ZZLL has fewer cases and algs, and less to recog, but it requires the use of phasing.


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## Diniz (Apr 21, 2010)

Anyone recomends learn VH for OH solving? I do 2 look OLL OH most of the time, i think maybe my last layer will be faster with VH..


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## miniGOINGS (Apr 21, 2010)

koreancuber said:


> I'm just going to go in Z*B*LL (ZZ-a) after COLL (after mastered in 2 weeks). If there's a specific reason I should go into ZZLL, I would but I just don't see a good reason. (other than that it helps transferring into ZZ-a).



1. Less algs
2. Better recog
3. Algs can be used later

ZZLL is a great transition to ZBLL, I would only learn it if going to ZBLL. With 3 (?) extra moves in F2L, you get a way easier LL.


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## miniGOINGS (Apr 21, 2010)

Conrad Rider said:


> Phasing (ZZ-b or ZZLL): Involves permuting two opposite LL edges during insertion of the final 1x1x2 F2L block. It is a relatively lightweight technique, using an estimated average of ~2 moves. It reduces the number of LL cases from 494 to only 167, enabling completion in one step with knowledge of 80 algorithms. Phasing also serves as a useful transition between COLL/EPLL and full ZBLL.
> Further info:
> ◦Michal Hordecki's ZZLL algorithms
> ◦Michal Hordecki's Phasing algorithms
> ...


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## 4Chan (Apr 21, 2010)

Koreancuber, one thing I want to warn is that, I believe ZZLL and ZBLL are recognized differently.

Goings, can you confirm that? How is ZZLL recognized?
It's getting 2 opposite edges permuted and then recognizing movements of the corners and the other 2 edges right?


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## eastamazonantidote (Apr 21, 2010)

Diniz said:


> Anyone recomends learn VH for OH solving? I do 2 look OLL OH most of the time, i think maybe my last layer will be faster with VH..



It's not great. I use Fridrich for OH most of the time (working on switching) because those F moves are just a little too slow for me. It's basically the same as doing the first step of 2LOLL (sometimes slower) then COLL. 2LOLL is fine and fast. The reason to use VH for OH is the EPLL guarantee after COLL (which is fast for OH). But COLL and VHF2L are fantastic for non-OH solving and really, really pay off on big cubes. I say learn it, but not just with OH solving in mind.


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## 4Chan (Apr 21, 2010)

Jason Baum's algorithms are mostly excellent. I can only think of 2 exceptions in which I don't use his algs for T set.


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## 4Chan (Apr 21, 2010)

Well, for the one in which the colours in the back are matched but the front aren't.

Liek, 

BB
LR

The one with a Z perm with lots of B turns and L turns.

Do a Y2 rotation, and it's a beautiful R, F, U algorithm that's simply delicious!~


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## miniGOINGS (Apr 21, 2010)

4Chan said:


> Goings, can you confirm that? How is ZZLL recognized?
> It's getting 2 opposite edges permuted and then recognizing movements of the corners and the other 2 edges right?



Nope.

Chris, either way, if you get to the LL with ZBLL and the edges are already phased, you can recognize with ZZLL recog. I hope that made some sense, but it probably didn't.

ZZLL (ZZ-b), as shown here, is recognized by first determining the COLL case, and then the cycle of edges.

I believe that this is the same as ZBLL, only there are fewer cases for the edge cycles.

EDIT: One thing to note about that site is that it's not finished (although the "Anti-Zune" page made me laugh).


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## 4Chan (Apr 21, 2010)

Ah!
I see.

I was thinking of some image I saw somewhere about corners moving clockwise.
Nevermind, it's the same.


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## miniGOINGS (Apr 21, 2010)

That is why I think ZZ-b would be a good transition. Going from recognizing COLL, to COLL + edges with restrictions, to COLL + edges with no restrictions.


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## Cride5 (Apr 21, 2010)

koreancuber said:


> miniGOINGS said:
> 
> 
> > koreancuber said:
> ...


For my ZBLLs I'm using the wiki database here. It was originally set up with the first complete ZBLL alg list published by eastamazonantidote. It is possible to add your own algs to the database, and I'd imagine folks have been doing so already. I certainly have anyway 




Diniz said:


> Anyone recomends learn VH for OH solving? I do 2 look OLL OH most of the time, i think maybe my last layer will be faster with VH..


If you're really into OH, you could look into OCELL/CPLL. It maximises the number of 2-gen algs involved in the last-layer, using only 4 non-2-gen algs in the final CPLL step (the A-perms, E-perm and H-perm). If you can get good OH CPLL algs it could be quite fast.


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## miniGOINGS (Apr 21, 2010)

Conrad, what's wrong with the <R, U> or <M, U> H Perms for OH?


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## Cride5 (Apr 21, 2010)

miniGOINGS said:


> Conrad, what's wrong with the <R, U> or <M, U> H Perms for OH?



H-perm occurs with the same frequency in both EPLL and CPLL. The algs are probably quite good for exec, but I'm terrible at OH so can't comment really.

The Idea with OCELL is that you're replacing the hardest part: COLL (only 7/40 2G cases) with OCELL (40/40 2G cases). If the final step CPLL can be done as fast as EPLL, then it OCELL should _in theory_ be quicker. But I'm no OH expert, so can't comment from a personal perspective.


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## 4Chan (Apr 21, 2010)

It gets tough. 

Expect to be frustrated. 
If you're like me, you'll want to give up.
You won't see positive gains for at least 8 months. xD


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## 4Chan (Apr 21, 2010)

I used to play this game called Runescape.
I reached the highest level in a few skills.

In order to do that I had to sit in a chair for 600 hours clicking the same things over and over and over.

This effectively allowed me to never become bored of anything in my life.
I have no sense of boredom.


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## Sir E Brum (Apr 21, 2010)

koreancuber said:


> Sir E Brum said:
> 
> 
> > koreancuber said:
> ...



ZZF2L is just F2L for ZZ.


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## Sir E Brum (Apr 21, 2010)

It's nothing special lol. I have always called it ZZF2L because that clarifies that it is part of the ZZ method.


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## miniGOINGS (Apr 21, 2010)

koreancuber said:


> Sir E Brum said:
> 
> 
> > It's nothing special lol. I have always called it ZZF2L because that clarifies that it is part of the ZZ method.
> ...



Yes. ZZF2L is the F2L part of the ZZ method.


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## Sir E Brum (Apr 21, 2010)

Yes. And I don't think you will master COLL in 2 weeks. I have been working on it for over a month, but I still have to pause and think about some algs before execution.


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## 4Chan (Apr 21, 2010)

One thing to note...
After EO, you don't neccessarily have to make a line...
You can also block build from 2x2x2 or even 2x2x3 and more.

I do that when I try to do FMC.


I memorized COLL in 2 days.


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## miniGOINGS (Apr 21, 2010)

4Chan said:


> One thing to note...
> After EO, you don't neccessarily have to make a line...
> You can also block build from 2x2x2 or even 2x2x3 and more.
> 
> ...



...Chris you're not human.

You do FMC with EO + Blockbuilding? Why didn't I think of this...

Two days, is like, 48 hours, that's insane.


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## Sir E Brum (Apr 21, 2010)

Memorization is easy enough, but doing it without thinking is a bit harder. That is what I was getting at.


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## miniGOINGS (Apr 21, 2010)

Sir E Brum said:


> Memorization is easy enough, but doing it without thinking is a bit harder. That is what I was getting at.



lolsig

It looks like you're not done yet.


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## Sir E Brum (Apr 21, 2010)

I only count the ones I have down perfectly =P Not just the ones I know.


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## Cride5 (Apr 21, 2010)

koreancuber said:


> Sir E Brum said:
> 
> 
> > It's nothing special lol. I have always called it ZZF2L because that clarifies that it is part of the ZZ method.
> ...



It is the *F*irst *2* *L*ayers, but it's _not_ Fridrich F2L. 

Instead of cross and four slots, you build two 1x2x3 blocks either side of the line. If you're just starting out, building Fridrich corner+edge pairs and joining them to the remaining D-layer edges is fine, but the move count won't be great. I'd recommend looking at alternative ways to build blocks and doing a lot of slow FM-style solving to improve efficiency.


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## eastamazonantidote (Apr 21, 2010)

Sir E Brum said:


> Memorization is easy enough, but doing it without thinking is a bit harder. That is what I was getting at.



I guess that sums up my early struggles. I learned all of COLL in a week, but then fiddled around because recognition was terrible and recall was worse.



koreancuber said:


> Hmmm.. any recommended sites? Oh, also, are eastamazonantidote's algs better or Jason Baum's algs better??



This is purely opinion. I will point out that many of our algs are the same. Mine are more suited to my style, which I will point out is not well defined. I modified COLL to fit my recognition (which I later found out to be the same as blah's recognition). Some algs seemed too long so I generated my own or mirrored them for the left hand (Baum does U2 or y2 for this).

I recommend learning the H sets first, to be honest. These are the algs you're more likely to be familiar with and helps build confidence. However, everyone is unique.


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