# N Perms - What's yours?



## DAE_JA_VOO (Sep 18, 2008)

How's it guys.

I've seen loads of you post about using J perms as N perms, but with a R U R' before and after, or something along those lines.

I can't seem to find it, and i hate the N perms i have now. 

Please post your N perms here 

Thanks in advance


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## yurivish (Sep 18, 2008)

I think it's R U R' U [j perm] [opposite of R U R' U] for one of them. I'm not sure off the top of my head what the analogue is for the other J perm, it might just be inversing the R and U's.


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## Raffael (Sep 18, 2008)

I finally learned them very recently.

N(a): (L U' L' U L) (F U F') (L' U' L) (F' L F) (L' U L')
N(b): (R U R' U' R) (F' U' F) (R U R') (F R' F') (R U' R)


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## Lotsofsloths (Sep 18, 2008)

The second one seems not to work.


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## hdskull (Sep 19, 2008)

I tried R U R' J perms, I don't like them, for me they're slower than the regular Ns that i do. 

Are there any sub 2-ers who does'nt use these.


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## DavidWoner (Sep 19, 2008)

yurivish said:


> I think it's R U R' U [j perm] [opposite of R U R' U] for one of them. I'm not sure off the top of my head what the analogue is for the other J perm, it might just be inversing the R and U's.



umm i guess that works, but i think a y-rotation is more common than the U-turn.

one is R U R' y Ja perm y' R U' R'

the other is R' U' R y' Jb perm y R' U R

the rotations are optional, depending on how you hold the cube during your j-perms. obviously you perform your j perm on the 2x3 block of oriented peices left after the R U R' or whatever.

i use these, and i hate them. I am switching to others soon.


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## Kenneth (Sep 19, 2008)

2x(R' U L' U2 R U' L)


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## fanwuq (Sep 19, 2008)

http://cubefreak.net/PLL.html

I got sub 2 singles on both and average about 2.2 on both when alg speeding.
When solving, probably more like 3 seconds.


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## Lotsofsloths (Sep 19, 2008)

Omg, I thank you Wuqiong.
Thanks for this alg that I have fell in love with at first sigh..I meant first try.
R' U R' F R F' R U' R' F' U F R U R' U' R


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## fanwuq (Sep 19, 2008)

Lotsofsloths said:


> Omg, I thank you Wuqiong.
> Thanks for this alg that I have fell in love with at first sigh..I meant first try.
> R' U R' F R F' R U' R' F' U F R U R' U' R



Glad that someone at least like one of the algs I concluded to be the fastest of its kind. But seriously, someone's got to try my Y perm. It's just so fast for me. Almost faster than T perm.


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## CAT13 (Sep 19, 2008)

Kenneth said:


> 2x(R' U L' U2 R U' L)



same. And the reflection of course.  relatively fast


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## DAE_JA_VOO (Sep 19, 2008)

Thanks for the replies guys. Keep 'em comin' 



CAT13 said:


> Kenneth said:
> 
> 
> > 2x(R' U L' U2 R U' L)
> ...


That's what i'm using now and i hate it


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## Vulosity (Sep 19, 2008)

I learned that alg because badmephisto "recomended" it. Now I hate it, too.


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## fanwuq (Sep 19, 2008)

DAE_JA_VOO said:


> Thanks for the replies guys. Keep 'em comin'
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It is fast. Look at nakaji's video showing how he executes them. They help a lot. (of course I like starting on L, so I do the reflection, that is faster.)


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## DavidWoner (Sep 19, 2008)

fanwuq said:


> Lotsofsloths said:
> 
> 
> > Omg, I thank you Wuqiong.
> ...



yeah thats a really good one. and i did give your Y-perm a try and it just didnt work for me.


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## Raffael (Sep 19, 2008)

Raffael said:


> I finally learned them very recently.
> 
> N(a): (L U' L' U L) (F U F') (L' U' L) (F' L F) (L' U L')
> N(b): (R U R' U' R) (F' U' F) (R U R') (F R' F') (R U' R)



Sorry, made mistake with the second one.
it has to be (R' U R U' R') in the beginning instead.


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## Sa967St (Sep 19, 2008)

R' U R' F R F' R U' R' F' U F R U R' U' R is a nice one  
no L turns!! I'm using that one from now on


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## brunson (Sep 19, 2008)

DAE_JA_VOO said:


> Thanks for the replies guys. Keep 'em comin'
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It's the one Erik A. uses, except with with a z before, so it's done in [URD]. I do it that way, too, but it takes me five seconds, it takes him under 2. Watch his PL:L video on youTube.


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## GuyWithFunnyHat (Sep 19, 2008)

well...I use nakaji's...

L' U R' z R2 U R' U z' R U R' z R2 U R' z' R U' 
and
z R' U R' D R'2 U' R U D' R' D R'2 U' R D' 
I don't like the second one, but I can't find anything obviously better

has anybody tried 
F' R U R' U' R' F R2 F U' R' U' R U F' R' ?


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## blgentry (Sep 19, 2008)

GuyWithFunnyHat said:


> well...I use nakaji's...
> 
> L' U R' z R2 U R' U z' R U R' z R2 U R' z' R U'



That alg doesn't work. I'm guessing it's a simple mistake, but I'm not sure where.

Brian.


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## fanwuq (Sep 20, 2008)

Vault312 said:


> fanwuq said:
> 
> 
> > Lotsofsloths said:
> ...



FRU'R'U'RUy'RUR'B'RU'R2
Did I have something different? A typo again?
I'm 99.9999999% sure this one works.
Or did you mean it was slow for you?


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## GuyWithFunnyHat (Sep 20, 2008)

blgentry said:


> GuyWithFunnyHat said:
> 
> 
> > well...I use nakaji's...
> ...



aah, I see it now, it should read


L' U R' z R2 U R' *U'* z' R U R' z R2 U R' z' R U'


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## MTGjumper (Sep 20, 2008)

An alg (and its mirror) that I don't know of anyone else using:

R' U' R L' U R' U2 L U' L' U2 L R U' R' U R
L U L' R U' L U2 R' U R U2 R' L' U L U' L'

I can perform them without regrips.


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## Stuart (May 14, 2011)

*what N perm do you use*

please post the algorithm you use


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## bigbee99 (May 14, 2011)

For which N Perm?


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## Rpotts (May 14, 2011)

R' U R U' R' F' U' F R U R' U' R d' R U R' (David*)
R' U R U' R' F' U' F R U R' F R' F' R U' R (Rowan)


wow if this was the Ctrl+V game thread my post would be the same


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## Engberg91 (May 14, 2011)

Na: (z) U R' D R2 U' R (D' U) R' D R2 U' R D' R' (z')
Nb: (z) U' R D' R2' U R' (U' D) R D' R2 U R' D R (z')


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## ben1996123 (May 14, 2011)

crap ones


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## wontolla (May 14, 2011)

Na = [z] [(U R' D) R2 (U' R D')]*2
Nb = [z] [(D' R U') R2 (D R' U)]*2


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## sa11297 (May 14, 2011)

ben1996123 said:


> crap ones


 
this


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## Selkie (May 14, 2011)

ben1996123 said:


> crap ones



Until a week ago, e.g. RUL 3 gen.



Engberg91 said:


> Na: (z) U R' D R2 U' R (D' U) R' D R2 U' R D' R' (z')
> Nb: (z) U' R D' R2' U R' (U' D) R D' R2 U R' D R (z')


 
Now these.


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## ananthakrishna (May 9, 2013)

Check This out :

F'(RUR'U')R'FR2F(U'R'U'R)UF'R'


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## mark49152 (May 9, 2013)

The standard short <RUL> algs are nicer if rotated to <RUD>

z (U R' D R2 U') (R [D' U] R' D R2 U' R D')
Regrip right while doing U' with left; do D'U as one move; finish D' with right thumb

z (U' R D') (R2' U R' [D U'] R D') (R2' U R' D) 
Regrip to thumb on BRU and index on FRD at both places where brackets change; push both D' moves with left ring finger; do DU' as one move


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## aznanimedude (May 9, 2013)

Na - (z) R' U R' D R2 U' R D' U R' D R2 U' l B'

Nb - (z) U' R D' R2 U R' U' D R D' R2 U R' D

those are the ones i use


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## mati1242 (May 9, 2013)

Nb:
R' U R U' R' F' U' F R U R' F R' F' R U' R

Na:
R U R' U R U R' F' R U R' U' R' F R2 U' R' U2 R U' R'


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## YddEd (May 9, 2013)

ananthakrishna said:


> Check This out :
> 
> F'(RUR'U')R'FR2F(U'R'U'R)UF'R'


Looks a bit hard to read from around 50cm :/
F' (R U R' U')R' F R2 F(U' R' U' R)U F' R' ?


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## mark49152 (May 9, 2013)

aznanimedude said:


> Na - (z) R' U R' D R2 U' R D' U R' D R2 U' l B'


That's the same as mine above, except, what purpose does the initial R' serve?

I like your l B' at the end. I think I do my R D' kinda half way between. Do you use thumb?


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## Kirjava (May 9, 2013)

RUD because idc lol


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## Ollie (May 9, 2013)

[Lw D' Lw' U2]*4 Lw D' Lw'

and 

x' [R' U' R F2]*4 R' U' R x

Not particularly fast (1.5s each on a good day) but I like them.


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## Brest (May 9, 2013)

Ollie said:


> [Lw D' Lw' U2]*4 Lw D' Lw'



(Rw D' Rw' U2)5
and
(Rw' D Rw U2)5


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## DavidCubie (May 9, 2013)

I took this N perm from Feliks, actually his PLL video on youtube.
Na-Perm: R U R' U (R U R' F' R U R' U' R' F R2 U' R') U2 R U' R'
You do the R U R' U, then you do the J perm and then just insert the pair with the U2 R U' R'.


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## aznanimedude (May 9, 2013)

Brest said:


> (Rw D' Rw' U2)5
> and
> (Rw' D Rw U2)5



these are hilariously lulzy to execute xD


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## szalejot (May 9, 2013)

Brest said:


> (Rw D' Rw' U2)5
> and
> (Rw' D Rw U2)5



Maybe not so fast to execute, but looks interesting.


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## qqwref (May 9, 2013)

Yeah, I was really shocked when I found those. It's so uncommon that a repetitive sequence not only does something useful, but is actually reasonably fast at it too.


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## yockee (May 9, 2013)

I personally use: 
Na - R U R' U (R U R' F' R U R' U' R' F R2 U' R' ) U2 R U' R' OR - R U' R' U l U F U' R' F' R U' R U l' U R'
Nb - R' U R U' R' F' U' F R U R' F R' F' R U' R 

There's also this alg I got from Thaynara De Santana: (r' D r U2) x5

And, now I see it's already been posted, hahaha.


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## speedcuber50 (May 24, 2013)

I use L' U R' U2 L U' R L' U R' U2 L U' R. I made it up myself, and it's fairly easy to do with good fingertricks as well.


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## irontwig (May 24, 2013)

B' R' U R B L U' L'


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## ben1996123 (May 24, 2013)

(r'DrU2)5
R' U R U' R' F' U' F R U R' F R' F' R U' R


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## cubernya (May 24, 2013)

Setup to J perm for both


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## antoineccantin (May 25, 2013)

J-perm and setup for one and crap one for the other ( trying to switch to RUD)


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## ottozing (May 25, 2013)

R U R' U R U R' F' R U R' U' R' F R2 U' R' U2 R U' R'
R' U L' U2 R U' M' B r' U2 R U' r


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## frenzen (May 25, 2013)

they are the only perms ive not learned, people told them they are rare. I just do 2 look


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## Coolster01 (May 25, 2013)

ottozing said:


> R U R' U R U R' F' R U R' U' R' F R2 U' R' U2 R U' R'
> R' U L' U2 R U' M' B r' U2 R U' r



Exactly what I use. The bottom one isn't the best, IMO.


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## god of rubic 2 (May 25, 2013)

Feliks' Na Perm
Feliks' Nb Perm


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## DuffyEdge (May 25, 2013)

R U R' U R U R' F' R U R' U' R' F R2 U' R' U2 R U' R'
R' U L' U2 R U' L R' U L' U2 R U' L


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## MaeLSTRoM (May 25, 2013)

F' R2 U R2 U' R2 F U2 F' R2 U R2 U' R2 F

and then some random alg for the other one


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## Username (May 26, 2013)

ottozing said:


> R U R' U R U R' F' R U R' U' R' F R2 U' R' U2 R U' R'
> R' U L' U2 R U' M' B r' U2 R U' r



I am now using these  Thanks!

I used to use:

z U R' D R2 U' R (D' U) R' D R2 U' R D'
R' U R U' R' F' U' F' R U R' F R' F' R U' R


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## kp (Jun 4, 2013)

yockee said:


> I personally use:
> Na - R U R' U (R U R' F' R U R' U' R' F R2 U' R' ) U2 R U' R' OR - R U' R' U l U F U' R' F' R U' R U l' U R'
> Nb - R' U R U' R' F' U' F R U R' F R' F' R U' R
> 
> ...



I'm gonna use that N(b). Up until now, I've been using the mirror of that N(a) (and the RUL one), and this feels so much nicer. Thanks!


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## Zeyofa (Oct 13, 2013)

*Nb Perm*

What's up Speedcubers?
Ok so now I want to learn the Nb Permutation and I don't like any of the algorithms that I see. 

My question is... What algorithm do you use for Nb Perm? :confused: I need pros to tell me what's the best to be fast


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## kcl (Oct 14, 2013)

Zeyofa said:


> What's up Speedcubers?
> Ok so now I want to learn the Nb Permutation and I don't like any of the algorithms that I see.
> 
> My question is... What algorithm do you use for Nb Perm? :confused: I need pros to tell me what's the best to be fast



Look at the post above you.


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## waffle=ijm (Oct 14, 2013)

FROM BREST 

(R' U L' U2 R U' L)2
=
z (D' R U' R2 D R' U)2 z'
=
(L' U R' U2' L U' R)2
=
z (U' R D' R2 U R' D)2 z'

R' U R' F R F' R U' R' F' U F R U R' U' R
inv=
R' U R U' R' F' U' F R U R' F R' F' R U' R

L' U' L U' (L' U' L F L' U' L U L F' L2 U L) U2 L' U L

z (U' R2' U) (R U R' F') (R U R' U') (R' F R2 U') (R' U2 R2 U) z'

(r D' r' U2)5

-*-*-*-*-

(R U' L U2 R' U L')2
=
z (D R' U R2 D' R U')2 z'
=
(L U' R U2 L' U R')2
=
z (U R' D R2 U' R D')2 z'

R U R' U (R U R' F' R U R' U' R' F R2 U' R') U2 R U' R'

F' R2 U R2 U' R2 F U2 F' R2 U R2 U' R2 F

(r' D r U2)5


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## Ultimate Cuber (Feb 8, 2014)

*What N-Permutations do you use?*

Here are the algorithms that I use...
Na: R U R' U (R U R' F' R U R' U' R' F R2 U' R' U2' R U' R')
Nb: (R' U R U') (R' F' U') (F R U) (R' F R' F') (R U' R)


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## TDM (Feb 8, 2014)

Ultimate Cuber said:


> So yeah if you use CFOP I would like to know what n-perms you use.
> 
> Here are the algorithms that I use...
> Na: R U R' U (R U R' F' R U R' U' R' F R2 U' R' U2' R U' R')
> Nb: (R' U R U') (R' F' U') (F R U) (R' F R' F') (R U' R)


I use the same Na, and the inverse of that Nb.


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## Lazy Einstein (Feb 9, 2014)

TDM said:


> I use the same Na, and *the inverse of that Nb*.



Never thought of trying that. ^

N(a) 
*(R U R' U) (R U R' F') (R U R' U') (R' F) (R2 U' R') U2 (R U' R')* Use this one atm
*z (U R' D R2 U') (R [D' U] R' D R2 U' R D')* Told I should use this one though for sub-1

N(b)
*z (U' R D') (R2' U R' [D U'] R D') (R2' U R' D)*


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## nanocube (Jun 23, 2014)

Hi, 

Could someone please post, or point me to, a good execution of these n perms (with slow motion and fingersticks if possible) : 
Na : (R' U L' U2 R U' L)2
Nb: (R U' L U2 R' U L')2

They are recommended by Badmephisto, but it is the only Plls of his method that I can seem to execute fast enough.

Thanks in advance,

Nanocube
(45 average)


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## ySoSrs (Jun 23, 2014)

You swapped Na and Nb. I use the same alg for Nb (that would be (R' U L' U2 R U' L)2) but do a rotation first which makes it easier to execute (imo): z (D' R U' R2 D R' U)2.
For Na I mainly use the alg mentioned above: (R U R' U) (R U R' F') (R U R' U') (R' F) (R2 U' R') U2 (R U' R')
It has a lot of triggers and is easy to execute.


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## TDM (Jun 23, 2014)

TDM said:


> the inverse of that Nb.


I don't any more; I use that same Nb now.


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## IAmAPerson (May 5, 2015)

Here's mine:
(A perm)(T perm)

I should probably learn a better one though.


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## TDM (May 5, 2015)

TDM said:


> I don't any more; I use that same Nb now.


now I use either
z U' R' U D' R U' R2 D R' D' R2 U D R' U' R U z'
or
r' D' F r U' r' F' D r2 U r' U' L' U r U'
for 3x3, and the old RUF one for bigcubes.


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## guysensei1 (May 5, 2015)

TDM said:


> now I use either
> z U' R' U D' R U' R2 D R' D' R2 U D R' U' R U z'



I feel so honored when I see someone using the N perm that I found 

EDIT: also I found this N perm from some old video somewhere. Feels cool to do.
F r' R2 U r' U2 x' R U' R U R2 F2 R2 r2 u'


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## Mes (May 5, 2015)

(L U' R U2 L' U R)2 U If anyone has anything faster please respond!


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## TDM (May 5, 2015)

Mes said:


> If anyone has anything faster please respond!


This thread is literally seven pages of N perm algs


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## pdilla (May 5, 2015)

TDM said:


> This thread is literally seven pages of N perm algs



Seriously, right?

Anywho, mine are:

Na: R U R' U (R U R' F' R U R' U' R' F R2 U' R') U2 R U' R'
Nb: L' U' L U (R' U2' R U R' z R2 U R' D R U') R' U' R U

In the parenthesis are J perms.


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## thatt guy (Dec 12, 2015)

na perm= (r' D r U2) x5
nb perm=(r D r' U2) x5


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## biscuit (Dec 12, 2015)

pdilla said:


> Seriously, right?
> 
> Anywho, mine are:
> 
> ...



If you are doing R U R' U [J perm] U2 R U' R', why not do the lefty equivalent for NB perms? It's just L' U' L U' [J(B?) perm] U2 L' U L


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## qwertycuber (Dec 12, 2015)

(R U R' U R U R' F' R U R' U' R' F R2 U' R' U2 R U' R') Na perm

(R' U R U' R' F' U' F R U R' F R' F' R U' R) Nb perm


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## qaz (Dec 12, 2015)

R U R' U (R U R' F' R U R' U' R' F R2 U' R') U2 R U' R'
r' D' F r U' r' F' D r2 U r' U' r' F r F'


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## 2180161 (Dec 12, 2015)

Na: (r' D r U2) x5
Nb: (r D' r' U2) x5


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## Aaron Lau (Dec 12, 2015)

can anyone even sub 1 : R U R' U R U R' F' R U R' U' R' F R2 U' R' U2 R U' R


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## 2180161 (Dec 12, 2015)

Aaron Lau said:


> can anyone even sub 1 : R U R' U R U R' F' R U R' U' R' F R2 U' R' U2 R U' R



If you were turning a 10TPS, you could not sub-1. If you were turning greater that 21 TPS, then it would be possible.


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## Aaron Lau (Dec 12, 2015)

2180161 said:


> If you were turning a 10TPS, you could not sub-1. If you were turning greater that 21 TPS, then it would be possible.



since it is 23 moves, shouldnt it be 23tps?


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## crafto22 (Dec 13, 2015)

2180161 said:


> If you were turning a 10TPS, you could not sub-1. If you were turning greater that 21 TPS, then it would be possible.



Lol I can sub-1 that. I consistently 0.5x the J perm, so all you need to add is two really fast triggers. My best with that alg is 0.97, but I usually get 1.0x or 1.1x



Aaron Lau said:


> since it is 23 moves, shouldnt it be 23tps?



It's 21 moves, double moves count as 1 move


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## Berd (Dec 14, 2015)

crafto22 said:


> It's 21 moves, double moves count as 1 move


Not in QTM


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## guysensei1 (Dec 14, 2015)

crafto22 said:


> Lol I can sub-1 that. I consistently 0.5x the J perm, so all you need to add is two really fast triggers. My best with that alg is 0.97, but I usually get 1.0x or 1.1x



Video? I can't believe anyone can sub-1 it until I see it.


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## portreathbeach (Nov 24, 2017)

guysensei1 said:


> Video? I can't believe anyone can sub-1 it until I see it.



Felik's is pretty quick at this one...

Skip to 8:38 in the video


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## Jaroon (Aug 4, 2019)

Lotsofsloths said:


> Omg, I thank you Wuqiong.
> Thanks for this alg that I have fell in love with at first sigh..I meant first try.
> R' U R' F R F' R U' R' F' U F R U R' U' R


I use the reverse of this, because I feel it flows better


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## PapaSmurf (Aug 4, 2019)

#threadbump
Also, Na: F' R U R' U' R' F R2 F U' R' U' R U F' R'
Nb: r' D' F r U' r' F' D r2 U r' U' r' F r F'


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## GAN 356 X (Sep 6, 2019)

Aaron Lau said:


> since it is 23 moves, shouldnt it be 23tps?


If you're Feliks Zemdegs you can do that


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## Piotr Grochowski (Jan 6, 2020)

Here's what I think is the Na perm algorithm
(R U' L U2 R' U L') (R U' L U2 R' U L') U

Another Na perm involves collaboration with the Jb perm:
L U L' (U' R U R' F' R U R' U' R' F R2 U' R') L U' L'

Also, the Nb perm would thus be

(L' U R' U2 L U' R) (L' U R' U2 L U' R) U'


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## jdh3000 (Jan 6, 2020)

DAE_JA_VOO said:


> How's it guys.
> 
> I've seen loads of you post about using J perms as N perms, but with a R U R' before and after, or something along those lines.
> 
> ...


The absolute best I've found I learned from Jperm on YouTube.

R U R' U (R U R' F' R U R' U' R' F R2 U' R') U2 R U' R'

This is when you have 2 solids facing on the right. I just do the inverse on the left side.
I had a couple of algs before that each were a move or two less, yet this one is faster and more fluid and definitely faster.


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## Parity Nightmare (Jan 6, 2020)




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## fortissim2 (Jan 6, 2020)

PapaSmurf said:


> #threadbump
> Also, Na: F' R U R' U' R' F R2 F U' R' U' R U F' R'
> Nb: r' D' F r U' r' F' D r2 U r' U' r' F r F'


I use these as well. They're short but the alg flows. I honestly don't get why people don't use these N perm algs!


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## Mischiiii (Jan 6, 2020)

I use the recommended ones from the cubeskills PDF


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## Cubingcubecuber (Aug 20, 2020)

Is this a new Na perm?

R F U' R' U R U F' R2 F' R U R U' R' F

It is the mirror of r' D' F r U' r' F' D r2 U r' U' r' F r F' but with wide l moves turned into R moves and the inverse of F' R U R' U' R' F R2 F U' R' U' R U F' R'


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## WarriorCatCuber (Aug 20, 2020)

Cubingcubecuber said:


> Is this a new Na perm?
> 
> R F U' R' U R U F' R2 F' R U R U' R' F
> 
> It is the mirror of r' D' F r U' r' F' D r2 U r' U' r' F r F' but with wide l moves turned into R moves and the inverse of F' R U R' U' R' F R2 F U' R' U' R U F' R'


It isn't new, I've seen it before, but few people use it.


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## PapaSmurf (Aug 20, 2020)

PapaSmurf said:


> #threadbump
> Also, Na: F' R U R' U' R' F R2 F U' R' U' R U F' R'
> Nb: r' D' F r U' r' F' D r2 U r' U' r' F r F'


Inverse of this and equally as good imo. Both have existed for similar amounts of time.


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## Cubing Forever (Nov 21, 2020)

Should I use r' D' F r U r' F' D r2 U r' U' r' F r F' or R' U R U' R' F' U F R U R' F R' F' R U' R
Timed both. Got 1.7x consistent on both of them. Both are regripless
My old alg was (R' U L' U2 R U' L)2 which was 1.9x. I learnt these algs today and a week ago respectively.


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## SunnyCubing (Jun 18, 2022)

i use n perm from GAN CFOP Manual


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