# 5x5x5 Example Solves: "Critique" or "Game" Thread



## unsolved (Mar 16, 2016)

I haven't seen any threads for critiquing 5x5x5 solves, nor is there apparently the popular Example Solve Game for the 5x5x5 where you solve the most-recent scramble, and post a subsequent scramble for someone else to solve.

So, here is a place to do both.


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## unsolved (May 9, 2016)

I guess I'll start 

Scramble: (200 moves total)

B L2 2F' R 2R' U' 2L U' 3U' 2R'
L2 2L2 3R' D 2U' R' B 3U2 2D' R'
2R2 2D2 D 2F 3R' 3F R 3U R2 3U2
3F B 2B' 3R' 2L2 R 2U2 U' D 2R2
2F2 2L2 R' U2 3U' U' 2D 2L' 2D' 2U
U' 2U' 3U' 3R 2B R 2D' 3R 2F' B2
F2 L 2U R' 2R' 2F2 D B2 R' 2L
D2 L' 3U B' 2R' 3F' B F 2F' 2D
F2 L 2R2 3R' L' 3F' B' 3F 2F' F
3F' F' 2L' 2D' F 2R' 2F 2D' 3F' 2B2
3F2 2F' D' R2 U 2U' 2L 2U' L2 2F2
B2 F' 3F2 U2 3U L' B R2 2D' 2U'
U' 3U2 2B2 2F B2 D' 2F 2U' 3U2 F2
3F2 F2 3U B 3F' 2R2 2F2 U' 3U R'
2L2 F' 2U' B' 2D2 2L2 2B' 3F' F2 3R'
R D 3R2 2F 2D D2 2D B R' 3U2
2U2 R' B 2F2 L' 3F' F 2U' 2R' 2B
2D' R' U' 2F2 3R' 2F' 2R B' 2L2 2B2
2L2 R' B' 3R' D 2R' R' 2R2 F2 B
2L' L 2L' D' 3F2 R 2R 2D' R' 2B2

U' R' B' R' B2 R' F' // corners in 7
R L' 2B' D' F' B U' D F U 2B U'
B2 D B2 R2 D2 B2 D2 F2 U' F2 R2
2L' B' 2L2 2R B L B' 2L2 2R' B L' 2L
2R D2 B' 3R' 2D2 B D2 B' 2D2 3R B 2R'
D 2L' U 2L D' U' L2 U 2L' U' L2 2L
2L' F D2 2R' D2 2R' D2 2R' D2 2R2 F' 2L // cage completed in 78 moves


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## mark49152 (May 10, 2016)

I think the reason there are no (or extremely few) critiques or reconstructions of 5x5 solves is because they involve so many moves that writing them up is laborious and error prone.

You might have more success with substeps. A few months ago I requested some edge-reduction only examples and several people contributed.

I haven't gone through it, but assuming what you posted above is a computer solution, that would hold little interest anyway for someone else to work through as an example because they would not learn anything useful to human solving.


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## unsolved (May 10, 2016)

mark49152 said:


> I haven't gone through it, but assuming what you posted above is a computer solution, that would hold little interest anyway for someone else to work through as an example because they would not learn anything useful to human solving.



This is a 3-stage solver: corners, cage, centers.

The first stage is probably of little interest because the program always finds the shortest corners solution and I don't think any human can make use of this. But people might still find that part interesting, since all 88 million+ corners are mapped to their most expedient solution.

The second stage is where I thought the most commentary would come in. The program has pre-solved 114,494,730 algorithms for cycling edges, midges, and tredges. This is, quite literally, every alg 12 moves (or fewer) deep. The program also has some 4-cycle, 3-cycle + 2-cycle, and 3-cycle + 3-cycle algs in its cluster. I am pretty sure most of these haven't been seen before. When they show up, maybe one or two of them could be of use to speedsolvers.

The third stage will be practically impossible for a human to make sense of. Some of the algs solve 27 centers at once, for example:

3R2 2D' 3F' 2U 2B 2D 3F 3R2 2B 2U' 2B2

There's over 8 billion algs to solve every center configuration that is 11 moves from the solved state from the unsolved cage in the program's largest database.


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## mark49152 (May 10, 2016)

What methods do you use to solve 5x5 yourself?


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## unsolved (May 10, 2016)

mark49152 said:


> What methods do you use to solve 5x5 yourself?



I solve it layer by layer. It's the only way I am proficient at.


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## unsolved (May 10, 2016)

Next scramble:

https://alg.cubing.net/?puzzle=5x5x5&title=5x5x5 Scramble 002&setup=_L2_2F2_D2_2D-_3R2_U_R2_2F-_2B_3F_ _2U-_D_U_D_2B-_2L2_F-_R2_2R2_R2_ _2U-_R2_2F-_2U2_2R2_D2_2F2_3R_3U2_2R_ _R_F2_2U2_D2_2B2_2L-_2R_2L2_U-_3R_ _F_2B-_3R-_U-_D-_3U_F2_L2_R-_2D_ _R-_2D_U-_3F_2U-_D-_2B_2F2_2D_F_ _R2_2D-_2F_2L_L_2B-_F-_U_L_2B2_ _B_F_L_U-_2L_2U-_F_3R2_2B-_3R2_ _F-_2D_2F-_2U_2F-_U2_3R2_U2_2F-_D_ _L-_B2_2R-_2B2_2L-_2U_2F-_2R_3R-_3F_ _D2_3F-_B_2B_2L_D-_F-_2D_F_L-_ _U2_2L2_B-_U_3R-_3F_3R2_2R2_F_2R-_ _R_F_2U-_3F-_3R_2R2_B_F2_3R2_2U-_ _2L2_R2_2B2_2R-_B_D_2R2_L2_2U_3R_ _L_2B_2L2_B-_U2_B-_U2_D_3U-_3F-_ _L2_B_2U-_R2_2F_U-_2D_D2_2B_2U2_ _L-_2L_2F-_R_2U2_3U-_2B2_D-_L2_2U2_ _F-_2D2_2R_2F-_2B_L-_3R_2R_F2_D-_ _2F_3U-_2D_2L_B2_2U-_F_B-_2F2_2L-_ _L-_3U-_2U_L_D_R2_B-_2U2_2B-_D_


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## stoic (May 10, 2016)

^Seems a tad lengthy. 
The timing program I use gives 5x5x5 scrambles of 60 moves.


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## unsolved (May 10, 2016)

stoic said:


> ^Seems a tad lengthy.
> The timing program I use gives 5x5x5 scrambles of 60 moves.



I can cut scrambles to 60 moves if you would prefer.


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## unsolved (May 10, 2016)

Here's a 200-move scramble that the program did not do too well. It took 103 moves to cage solve.

U F L U' L2 F2 R' U F' // corners in 9
R' B 2R2 U D' R' 2R2 F 2R2 U' D 2R2 // 11 edges
L' U' 3R U B2 R' U 3R' U' R B2 L // 17 edges
2U R' 2D' R' 2D R 2U' R 2U R 2U' R' // 21 edges
R L2 2U R' 2U' L2 U 2U R 2U' R' U' // 25 edges
2L2 B' L 2F L' B F L 2F' L' F' 2L2 // 30 edges
R 3U F2 R2 3U' R 3U' R F2 R' 3U // 32 edges
3R' B' 3R' B2 U2 3R B' 3R B U2 B' // 34 edges
2R D2 2R D2 B2 2R B2 2L' D2 2L D2 2R2 // cage completed [time = 1:42]

The only interesting parts might be the pickup of the 6 middle edges with this:

L' U' 3R U B2 R' U 3R' U' R B2 L

...or this oddball 5-cycle of the wings:

2L2 B' L 2F L' B F L 2F' L' F' 2L2


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## unsolved (May 10, 2016)

A 60-move scramble, by request:

L2 3U2 3F' 2L2 R 3F 2R' 2D B' 2U'
2L D 2U 3F' U' L2 3R2 3F2 L2 2D'
R 2D2 U2 3U' L D' 2U 3F L2 U
2F 3R' R F 2B' 2D D 2L2 B' L
2B2 2L 3R B2 3U D' 2U' 2F' 2B2 3F
2L' F' 2R' 3R' 3F' R L 3R' 2D' U'

https://alg.cubing.net/?puzzle=5x5x..._F-_2R-_3R-_3F-_R_L_3R-_2D-_U-_&view=playback


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## abunickabhi (May 10, 2016)

Which software do you use for 5x5 solver? Also I found this thread very interesting


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## abunickabhi (May 10, 2016)

unsolved said:


> This is a 3-stage solver: corners, cage, centers.
> 
> The first stage is probably of little interest because the program always finds the shortest corners solution and I don't think any human can make use of this. But people might still find that part interesting, since all 88 million+ corners are mapped to their most expedient solution.
> 
> ...



Do you have the link of the database , for the center solving database from the unsolved cage state


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## unsolved (May 10, 2016)

abunickabhi said:


> Do you have the link of the database , for the center solving database from the unsolved cage state



It's a little more complicated than connecting to an ODBC compliant database.







The database is presently about 92 GB and I load it into a RAM buffer when the centers-solving stage begins. As you can see, there are 8,247,064,891 algorithms (8.2 billion) that are pre-calculated. Most of them for centers-solving are of little use to humans, such as this one which solves 27 centers simultaneously:

3R2 2D' 3F' 2U 2B 2D 3F 3R2 2B 2U' 2B2

The center algs that are most useful are the 1x1, 2x2, 3x3, and 4x4 center exchanges across adjacent faces.

Here is a 4x4 example where 4 centers are traded with 4 other centers:

2R U2 2R 2U2 2D2 2R' 2L 2D2 2U2 2L' U2 2R'

And 8x8 centers:

https://alg.cubing.net/?puzzle=5x5x...U_D-_2L-&title=8 CENTERS SOLVED&view=playback


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## unsolved (May 10, 2016)

abunickabhi said:


> Which software do you use for 5x5 solver? Also I found this thread very interesting



The program is called *Omnia Obtorquebantur 5x5x5*


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## adimare (May 10, 2016)

Hadn't you named it *Bovis Stercus*?


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## unsolved (May 11, 2016)

abunickabhi said:


> Which software do you use for 5x5 solver? Also I found this thread very interesting



I also added a "cascade solving mode." A picture can explain this better.






Each edge algorithm (in this phase) is accessible by an index, basically a number from 0 to 114,494,729 since there are 114,494,730 algorithms. I decided to write a recursive search routine where the index to the algorithm is passed in, rather than moves spawned by a move generator. The program "expands" the moves to the algorithm by simply going to the RAM location assigned to the index, and generating the moves found there.

There would be no way to examine all algs pairs up against all algs, but the program could pair every 4-move, 5-move, and 6-move alg against every one of the 114 million algs within a few hours. The 7-move alg list pairing would take a few days. You can see on the right of the screen is a number that shows 2.8 million algorithms are being processed per second. Since each algorithm is 18 moves long in this part of the solve, it's really equivalent to over 50 million moves/second being generated.

When you consider that depth 18 of the 5x5x5 has 370,667,354,480,380,735,149,206,536,695 positions total, and the program will finish its "depth 18" alg list in about 20 hours, the functional solving speed is *5,148,157,701,116,399,099,294,535* positions/second (5.1 septillion).

The result of a 6-move alg (shown in yellow) with a 12-move alg (shown in blue) that nets 16 edges being solved from a 300-move scramble is shown above. The numbers shown in parenthesis, {000000463} x {021970504}, are the indices of the current algs being tested to see if more edges are correctly solved. The moves associated with those algs appear to the right of them.

I was curious to see if the program could ever find a combination of two algs that would outperform finding the alg that nets the most edges solved twice in a row. In this case, it did, but the search took hours (and 6 fewer moves, which is pretty good).

This 300-move scramble, 8-move corner solve, and 16-move edge alg will recreate the position shown above:

B L2 F2 D' L F2 R' F' // corners solved in 8
L2 F' L2 R2 B R2 F2 R F' B L' F B' U' D2 R2 L B2 // 16 edges solved


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## ryanj92 (May 11, 2016)

unsolved said:


> A 60-move scramble, by request:
> 
> L2 3U2 3F' 2L2 R 3F 2R' 2D B' 2U'
> 2L D 2U 3F' U' L2 3R2 3F2 L2 2D'
> ...



my solution

using yau5 method. i don't know how well my efficiency stacks up, this solve seemed pretty average for the most part.

scramble: D' B2 D d U2 R' b L' d R' L u' r R' L b2 f B l L u r' f d r2 l' D' l' r' R F' U' b' R' b2 L' b B2 D' F2 U l2 u2 l2 D R2 r L B' U2 D b R2 L2 d2 b' U2 d' L u2


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## Chree (May 11, 2016)

unsolved said:


> A 60-move scramble, by request:
> L2 *3U2 3F'* 2L2 R *3F* 2R' 2D B' 2U'
> 2L D 2U *3F'* U' L2 *3R2 3F2* L2 2D'
> R 2D2 U2 *3U'* L D' 2U *3F* L2 U
> ...



5x5 scramblers don't use triple wide turns. The centers need to remain stationary so that we can verify orientation mid-scramble, if need be. Also, it's just sorta awkward to do turns past half-way on a cube when you're reading a scramble.

The old WCA scrambler is conveniently still available in the Regulations history:
https://www.worldcubeassociation.org/regulations/history/files/regulations2010.html#scrambling
https://www.worldcubeassociation.org/regulations/history/files/scrambles/scramble_cube.htm


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## unsolved (May 11, 2016)

ryanj92 said:


> my solution
> 
> using yau5 method. i don't know how well my efficiency stacks up, this solve seemed pretty average for the most part.



Thanks for adding all of your notes. I am not familiar with yau5, but I'm interested in seeing as many different types of solves as possible. It is amazing to see completely different ways of looking at the puzzle in order to solve it.

I'll take a look at your scramble later this evening. 

Thanks again for your solution!


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## unsolved (May 11, 2016)

Chree said:


> 5x5 scramblers don't use triple wide turns. The centers need to remain stationary so that we can verify orientation mid-scramble, if need be. Also, it's just sorta awkward to do turns past half-way on a cube when you're reading a scramble.



I probably should have mentioned this was *SiGN *notation, sorry.

So when you see 3U2 it means the 3rd slice parallel to the top is rotated twice as a single slice, and not a block turn.

Likewise 3F is a single slice turn.


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## gyroninja (May 11, 2016)

unsolved said:


> I probably should have mentioned this was *SiGN *notation, sorry.
> 
> So when you see 3U2 it means the 3rd slice parallel to the top is rotated twice as a single slice, and not a block turn.
> 
> Likewise 3F is a single slice turn.


Wouldn't it still change center orientation.


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## unsolved (May 11, 2016)

I just saw the program played a 13-move alg I have never seen before in one of its test solves:

R' 2D F' D' 3R2 D2 3R2 F 2D' F' D' F R

What kind of cycle is this? It solves a total of 7 edges simultaneously, wings and midges. I don't know how to describe it.


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## Chree (May 11, 2016)

unsolved said:


> I probably should have mentioned this was *SiGN *notation, sorry.
> 
> So when you see 3U2 it means the 3rd slice parallel to the top is rotated twice as a single slice, and not a block turn.
> 
> Likewise 3F is a single slice turn.



In that case, I would probably discourage SiGN notation on this type of thread. Practically 0% of 5x5 scramblers for speedsolving applications use SiGN notation since it's more time consuming to execute than block turns. The vast majority of people on this forum are talking a different language when they scramble, by default.


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## unsolved (May 11, 2016)

Chree said:


> In that case, I would probably discourage SiGN notation on this type of thread. Practically 0% of 5x5 scramblers for speedsolving applications use SiGN notation since it's more time consuming to execute than block turns. The vast majority of people on this forum are talking a different language when they scramble, by default.



So no tournament scramble would ever involve making a single slice turn to move just the middle-most slice on a 5x5x5?


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## Chree (May 11, 2016)

unsolved said:


> So no tournament scramble would ever involve making a single slice turn to move just the middle-most slice on a 5x5x5?



That's correct. Slices are incidental in competition scrambles, not deliberate.


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## ryanj92 (May 11, 2016)

unsolved said:


> Thanks for adding all of your notes. I am not familiar with yau5, but I'm interested in seeing as many different types of solves as possible. It is amazing to see completely different ways of looking at the puzzle in order to solve it.
> 
> I'll take a look at your scramble later this evening.
> 
> Thanks again for your solution!


No worries! Some things may seem inefficient, for example writing 3u 2u' instead of just 3U - my intention was to write it as close to how I would execute it during an actual solve as I could.

In addition to Chree's point - 5x5x5 scrambles in general are restricted to single layer outer turns (U,F,R,etc.) and double layer turns (u,f,r,etc.)  for reference, my scramble is from qqtimer. It's just a little easier to execute than single layer turns!


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## unsolved (May 11, 2016)

Chree said:


> That's correct. Slices are incidental in competition scrambles, not deliberate.



Ok can you check to see if this is the correct notation for this? These should all be algs to move 3 centers from the top face to the front face.


```
Omnia Obtorquebantur 5x5x5 Version 1.4.4, May 11, 2016. Copyright 2015 by Ed Trice.



                                   TOP
                                   -------------------------
                                  |####|####|####|####|####|
                                   -------------------------
                                  |####|OOOO|OOOO|OOOO|####|
                                   -------------------------
                                  |####|####|####|####|####|
                                   -------------------------
                                  |####|####|####|####|####|
                                   -------------------------
                                  |####|####|####|####|####|
                                   -------------------------
      LEFT                         FRONT                        RIGHT                        BACK
      -------------------------    -------------------------    -------------------------    -------------------------
     |&&&&|&&&&|&&&&|&&&&|&&&&|   |OOOO|OOOO|OOOO|OOOO|OOOO|   |XXXX|XXXX|XXXX|XXXX|XXXX|   |^^^^|^^^^|^^^^|^^^^|^^^^|
      -------------------------    -------------------------    -------------------------    -------------------------
     |&&&&|&&&&|&&&&|&&&&|&&&&|   |OOOO|####|####|####|OOOO|   |XXXX|XXXX|XXXX|XXXX|XXXX|   |^^^^|^^^^|^^^^|^^^^|^^^^|
      -------------------------    -------------------------    -------------------------    -------------------------
     |&&&&|&&&&|&&&&|&&&&|&&&&|   |OOOO|OOOO|OOOO|OOOO|OOOO|   |XXXX|XXXX|XXXX|XXXX|XXXX|   |^^^^|^^^^|^^^^|^^^^|^^^^|
      -------------------------    -------------------------    -------------------------    -------------------------
     |&&&&|&&&&|&&&&|&&&&|&&&&|   |OOOO|OOOO|OOOO|OOOO|OOOO|   |XXXX|XXXX|XXXX|XXXX|XXXX|   |^^^^|^^^^|^^^^|^^^^|^^^^|
      -------------------------    -------------------------    -------------------------    -------------------------
     |&&&&|&&&&|&&&&|&&&&|&&&&|   |OOOO|OOOO|OOOO|OOOO|OOOO|   |XXXX|XXXX|XXXX|XXXX|XXXX|   |^^^^|^^^^|^^^^|^^^^|^^^^|
      -------------------------    -------------------------    -------------------------    -------------------------

                                   BOTTOM
                                   -------------------------
                                  |~~~~|~~~~|~~~~|~~~~|~~~~|
                                   -------------------------
                                  |~~~~|~~~~|~~~~|~~~~|~~~~|
                                   -------------------------
                                  |~~~~|~~~~|~~~~|~~~~|~~~~|
                                   -------------------------
                                  |~~~~|~~~~|~~~~|~~~~|~~~~|
                                   -------------------------
                                  |~~~~|~~~~|~~~~|~~~~|~~~~|
                                   -------------------------


  Solutions To:   [03 vs. 03 Position # 0001]: Top Center Cubes 07-08-09 vs. Front Center Cubes 07-08-09

  Solution [0001] =  U  F' l' F2 D2  B2 r' B2 D2 F' U'  @ 000000027432411 solved state checks [time = 00:07]
  Solution [0002] =  u  L  f  L2 D2  R2 b  R2 D2 L  u'  @ 000000032414034 solved state checks [time = 00:08]
  Solution [0003] =  u' R' f' R2 D2  L2 b' L2 D2 R' u   @ 000000033608628 solved state checks [time = 00:08]
  Solution [0004] =  F  U' l  U2 B2  D2 r  D2 B2 U' F'  @ 000000050998293 solved state checks [time = 00:13]
  Solution [0005] =  F  U' B2 D2 l   D2 B2 U2 r  U' F'  @ 000000051037250 solved state checks [time = 00:13]
  Solution [0006] =  F' U  B2 D2 r'  D2 B2 U2 l' U  F   @ 000000052855592 solved state checks [time = 00:13]
  Solution [0007] =  b' R  d' R2 B2  L2 u' L2 B2 R  b   @ 000000065867523 solved state checks [time = 00:17]
  Solution [0008] =  b  L' d  L2 B2  R2 u  R2 B2 L' b'  @ 000000067891245 solved state checks [time = 00:17]
  Solution [0009] =  b  L' B2 R2 d   R2 B2 L2 u  L' b'  @ 000000067914452 solved state checks [time = 00:17]
```


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## Chree (May 12, 2016)

unsolved said:


> Ok can you check to see if this is the correct notation for this? These should all be algs to move 3 centers from the top face to the front face.
> ....
> Solution [0001] = U F' l' F2 D2 B2 r' B2 D2 F' U' @ 000000027432411 solved state checks [time = 00:07]
> Solution [0002] = u L f L2 D2 R2 b R2 D2 L u' @ 000000032414034 solved state checks [time = 00:08]
> ...



Notation's good. The first one didn't preserve LL. Did you try them out on a physical cube?


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