# Remove 3x3x3 with Feet as an Official Event?



## Kirjava (Aug 13, 2013)

Edit: Thread split from Proposal- Average of 5 for 6x6.

Feet has a better case for average of 5 if it's staying.


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## uberCuber (Aug 14, 2013)

Kirjava said:


> Feet has a better case for average of 5 if it's staying.



Lol I didn't even know feet was a mo3 event. Someone who cares about the event go ahead and ask for it to be changed, too. :s


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## Kirjava (Aug 14, 2013)

uberCuber said:


> Lol I didn't even know feet was a mo3 event. Someone who cares about the event go ahead and ask for it to be changed, too. :s



Maybe no one does.

The point is that feet has a better case for avg5 than 6x6x6 so we should be looking at that before it if it is going to happen.


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## Sebastien (Aug 14, 2013)

Kirjava said:


> Maybe no one does.
> 
> The point is that feet has a better case for avg5 than 6x6x6 so we should be looking at that before it if it is going to happen.



This got already proposed for 2013 and was objected. I highly doubt that it would be accepted for 6x6x6.


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## arcio1 (Aug 14, 2013)

IMO, avg5 for feet is a good idea, not because you can mess up your solve, but because your cube can pop. It is really hard to fix cube using your feet, and even if you manage to do it, your average will be destroyed.
Actually, my cube popped at Polish Nationals 2013, luckily it was first round, somehow I made finals and end up being third. 

Or insead of changing feet format, it would be good to allow feet solvers to fix their cubes with hands.


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## cubeflip (Aug 14, 2013)

Kirjava said:


> Feet has a better case for average of 5 if it's staying.



I brought this up during the regulations discussion at worlds. I don't think Vincent nor Lucas like Feet in the first place. We also discussed 6x6 avg5. They don't like the idea of changing it because of the time requirement. Yes, there may not be that many additional scrambles, but changing the format would make the event longer than it already is.


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## Coolster01 (Aug 14, 2013)

I don't see why avg5 for feet is bad... I feel like it will only do good and scrambling would be no problem.


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## Kirjava (Aug 14, 2013)

Maybe I should mention that I'm against average 5 for feet.


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## Coolster01 (Aug 14, 2013)

Kirjava said:


> Maybe I should mention that I'm against average 5 for feet.



Please elaborate. 

Being a stupid event isn't a valid argument. You can just not hold the event and problem solved.


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## Kirjava (Aug 15, 2013)

Coolster01 said:


> Please elaborate.
> 
> Being a stupid event isn't a valid argument. You can just not hold the event and problem solved.



I want it to be removed and changing to average of 5 is a step in the wrong direction.


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## tx789 (Aug 15, 2013)

the only mean of events left are 6x6,7x7 and feet. 6x6 and 7x7 take a long time and feet most people hate. You change them to keep the events with averages uniform. But then most comps wouldn't hold 6x6 or 7x7 or have a 4:00 cut off for 6x6 and 5:00 for 7x7 or something. And feet well...


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## Coolster01 (Aug 16, 2013)

I just don't understand how average of 5 for feet is a "step in the wrong direction". I mean, yeah, changes are being made, but it could probably be removed just as easily with ao5 than mean of 3.


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## antoineccantin (Aug 16, 2013)

Coolster01 said:


> I just don't understand how average of 5 for feet is a "step in the wrong direction". I mean, yeah, changes are being made, but it could probably be removed just as easily with ao5 than mean of 3.



He says it's a "step in the wrong direction" for him because he wants the event removed entirely.


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## Kirjava (Aug 16, 2013)

there's no point changing to avg5 if you plan on removing it later. just remove it.


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## Coolster01 (Aug 16, 2013)

antoineccantin said:


> He says it's a "step in the wrong direction" for him because he wants the event removed entirely.





Kirjava said:


> there's no point changing to avg5 if you plan on removing it later. just remove it.



Ah, I get it.

I don't want it removed.


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## elrog (Aug 16, 2013)

Kirjava said:


> there's no point changing to avg5 if you plan on removing it later. just remove it.



Why remove it? If you don't like it, don't participate in it. If there was a man with no hands who did feet solving and wanted TH and OH removed, nobody would listen. Some would say this is because TH and OH are more popular, but that doesn't make it right. If there are people out there who enjoy feet-solving, let them enjoy it just as you enjoy doing TH.


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## Divineskulls (Aug 16, 2013)

elrog said:


> If there was a man with no hands who did feet solving...



iirc there was.


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## Kirjava (Aug 16, 2013)

elrog said:


> Why remove it? If you don't like it, don't participate in it.



Do you understand that there can be legitimate reasons for removing something other than not liking it?


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## Czery (Aug 16, 2013)

Kirjava said:


> Do you understand that there can be legitimate reasons for removing something other than not liking it?



I feel like all "legitimate" reasons stem from the fact that you don't like it. 
If you did enjoy feet, you probably wouldn't want it removed.


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## Kirjava (Aug 16, 2013)

Czery said:


> I feel like all "legitimate" reasons stem from the fact that you don't like it.
> If you did enjoy feet, you probably wouldn't want it removed.



Please stop making assumptions. Please do not claim bias where none exists.

I really like 3x3x5, but I do not think it should be an event just because I like it.


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## rj (Aug 17, 2013)

Kirjava said:


> Please stop making assumptions. Please do not claim bias where none exists.
> 
> I really like 3x3x5, but I do not think it should be an event just because I like it.



I think popular events like skewb should be added, not superfluous events like feet removed.


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## Skullush (Aug 17, 2013)

I've yet to see a real reason in this thread for why 3x3 with feet should be removed as an official event


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## Coolster01 (Aug 17, 2013)

Skullush said:


> I've yet to see a real reason in this thread for why 3x3 with feet should be removed as an official event



Same here, and I am constantly checking for someone to actually say something.


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## elrog (Aug 17, 2013)

Kirjava said:


> Do you understand that there can be legitimate reasons for removing something other than not liking it?



This whole time you've gone on about this, you've never actually said any reason other than you don't like it. *Explain your reason if you have one!*


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## PatrickJameson (Aug 17, 2013)

Feet makes cubing look less legitimate and just silly. Also, many people find it gross and don't want to scramble/judge it.


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## Tim Major (Aug 17, 2013)

PatrickJameson said:


> Feet makes cubing look less legitimate and just silly. Also, many people find it gross and don't want to scramble/judge it.



I have to agree with this. The only reason I could ever see for competing in feet is the easy OCR, because I don't exactly find it fun, I don't know of anyone who actually prefers feet to normal 3x3. Not only is it unpopular amongst solvers, not many people want to judge/scramble/run for it, and it's kind of cringeworthy to see at a huge competition such as World's.


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## aceofspades98 (Aug 17, 2013)

PatrickJameson said:


> Feet makes cubing look less legitimate and just silly. Also, many people find it gross and don't want to scramble/judge it.


I agree too.


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## BaMiao (Aug 17, 2013)

PatrickJameson said:


> Feet makes cubing look less legitimate and just silly. Also, many people find it gross and don't want to scramble/judge it.



I agree. Feet is a sideshow that the media and non cubers like to oggle at. It takes focus away from the talented people who do amazing things with their hands (and minds!). It gives the wrong impression to non cubers and is a roadblock to any attempts at getting the general population to take cubing seriously.


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## MrData (Aug 17, 2013)

Tim Major said:


> I don't know of anyone who actually prefers feet to normal 3x3.


Hi there, I prefer feet to solving with hands. If you don't like the event then don't compete in it or hold it at your competitions. If there should be any change in feet it should be a move to average of 5 format rather than mean of 3.


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## PatrickJameson (Aug 17, 2013)

A good question to ask is what is the difference between having feet be an official event and say, one handed. The only difference I see here is the gross factor.


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## Skullush (Aug 17, 2013)

PatrickJameson said:


> Feet makes cubing look less legitimate and just silly.


Are you saying that because of feet-solving, cubing may not be taken seriously? Because I don't feel that to be true. In fact many non-cubers are amazed by the fact that people can solve a cube with their feet, it doesn't appear to be trashing the reputation of the WCA or anything like that. Maybe it's a bit silly, but not in a detrimental way



> Also, many people find it gross and don't want to scramble/judge it.


True, but as long as enough people are willing to judge/scramble for a particular competition, then what's the problem? I hate to use this repetitive argument, but you don't have to have the event at every small competition.



Tim Major said:


> Not only is it unpopular amongst solvers, not many people want to judge/scramble/run for it,


Might sound a bit anecdotal, but at the World Championships last month there were more competitors in 3x3 with feet than there were in 4x4 blindfolded and 5x5 blindfolded. It's not as if hardly anyone competes in it.



> and it's kind of cringeworthy to see at a huge competition such as World's.


Cringeworthy? Is it that embarrassing that feet-solving exists? I feel like there's something here that I'm not getting...


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## Tim Major (Aug 17, 2013)

I'm on phone and for some reasons line breaks don't work on this site+my browser so apologies for the format.


Skullush said:


> Might sound a bit anecdotal, but at the World Championships last month there were more competitors in 3x3 with feet than there were in 4x4 blindfolded and 5x5 blindfolded. It's not as if hardly anyone competes in it.


That is because solving 4x4 and 5x5 blindfolded is a(n) unique skill that few people can successfully do. With feet and one handed are the exact same puzzle/solution just with a handicap. There are more people doing feet because it is easy (OH is one of my main events btw). Magic and master magic were removed due to triviality, not because few people competed, in fact magic was extremely popular, but was met with the similar, "most competitors didn't like the event".


Skullush said:


> Cringeworthy? Is it that embarrassing that feet-solving exists? I feel like there's something here that I'm not getting...


um... yes I do find it that way otherwise I wouldn't have included it. I see media/noncubers watching feet and it just seems to give cubing a bad image.


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## ryanj92 (Aug 17, 2013)

Why all of a sudden are we worrying about the media image of an activity which involves people solving plastic toys as fast as possible? For the record, in my experience people are more interested in stuff like OH than feet solving. The more general reaction for feet has been shock/confusion, and then not much else when they realise that not many people can do it in a time quick enough to keep someone's interest... 

And to fuel the side topic I'm not a fan of Mo3 in general, and would support a switch to Ao5.

EDIT: realised I didn't even state my opinion... I say keep feet


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## aceofspades98 (Aug 17, 2013)

@ everyone who enjoys feet. Remember there were a whole lot of people who enjoyed magic and mm as well, but they too had there favorite event removed. Do you see them complaining now?


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## Dene (Aug 17, 2013)

This all come back to the philosophy that the WCA want to adopt regarding the future of official events. Currently the only thing we have to go by is "more fun for more people", which is pretty useless when people differ on opinion. All of this discussion is pointless until the WCA provides clear direction for speedcubers to think about.


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## slinky773 (Aug 17, 2013)

Dene said:


> This all come back to the philosophy that the WCA want to adopt regarding the future of official events. Currently the only thing we have to go by is "more fun for more people", which is pretty useless when people differ on opinion. All of this discussion is pointless until the WCA provides clear direction for speedcubers to think about.



I agree, arguing over opinions isn't really going to do much. We should wait for the WCA to pitch in. That Tyson Mao is pretty smart, he'll know what to do


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## Benyó (Aug 17, 2013)

i'd like to see some statistics of how many competition held feet in the past some years and what percentage of the competitors competed in it. can someone do it? it will be shocking.


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## Tim Major (Aug 17, 2013)

Benyó said:


> i'd like to see some statistics of how many competition held feet in the past some years and what percentage of the competitors competed in it. can someone do it? it will be shocking.



The amount of competitions that held it would be a low %, but when held lots of people probably do it just for cheap records.


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## Coolster01 (Aug 17, 2013)

Tim Major said:


> The amount of competitions that held it would be a low %, but when held lots of people probably do it just for cheap records.



I'm pretty sure that Oceania is the only popular cubing place in the world where feet solving times are slow.

Here in North America, we have quite a few people who are practicing all the time for NARs, which btw is not beaten very often even though these people compete in the event a lot. I really don't think 46.08 average and 39.00 is a cheap record.

Oh yeah, and South America has a sub-30 single a (35?) mean. Europe has 31 single and 38 mean. And Asia has WR single and average.

EDIT: That also is not a very encouraging post to all of the record holders who practice hours a day (sub-1 records).


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## Stefan (Aug 17, 2013)

slinky773 said:


> I agree, arguing over opinions isn't really going to do much. We should wait for the WCA to pitch in. *That Tyson Mao is pretty smart*, he'll know what to do



He also retired.


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## Skullush (Aug 17, 2013)

Tim Major said:


> I'm on phone and for some reasons line breaks don't work on this site+my browser so apologies for the format.That is because solving 4x4 and 5x5 blindfolded is a(n) unique skill that few people can successfully do. With feet and one handed are the exact same puzzle/solution just with a handicap. There are more people doing feet because it is easy (OH is one of my main events btw). Magic and master magic were removed due to triviality, not because few people competed, in fact magic was extremely popular, but was met with the similar, "most competitors didn't like the event".


You were saying that 3x3 with feet's unpopularity was a reason to remove the event, and the percentage of competitors who compete in a given event is a good evaluation of its popularity, that's why I mentioned it. Difficulty affects popularity. Theoretical events like 9BLD and super square-1 (ignoring other reasons for why they should never be official events, i.e. scrambling and time-consumption) would not be very popular because they're difficult



> um... yes I do find it that way otherwise I wouldn't have included it. I see media/noncubers watching feet and it just seems to give cubing a bad image.


I really don't see how feet-solving gives cubing a bad image.



aceofspades98 said:


> @ everyone who enjoys feet. Remember there were a whole lot of people who enjoyed magic and mm as well, but they too had there favorite event removed. Do you see them complaining now?


What does magic have to do with this? It was removed because it wasn't a puzzle and it's difficult to judge. Feet has neither of these problems



Benyó said:


> i'd like to see some statistics of how many competition held feet in the past some years and what percentage of the competitors competed in it. can someone do it? it will be shocking.


I'd also like to see these statistics


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## Bhargav777 (Aug 17, 2013)

Even though there have been a few reasons cited for not having it, I only feel they are lame ones. 
Why not have it?
Its gross? any event that's not done in a stylish manner will look gross. I really feel the feet solves of most of the sub 1 feet solvers are really impressive. Magic and master magic were removed because it required no thinking. Just some finger tricks practised over and over again. Feet seems to give a very good challenge to cubers who are very good at look ahead too.


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## angham (Aug 17, 2013)

PatrickJameson said:


> Feet makes cubing look less legitimate and just silly. Also, many people find it gross and don't want to scramble/judge it.


could not agree more


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## ryanj92 (Aug 17, 2013)

If people are worrying about sanitary issues, why is the solution to remove the event and not enforce compulsory measures to keep the event sanitary? Hand gel/disposable gloves/wipes are all inexpensive measures that would solve this problem...


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## Coolster01 (Aug 17, 2013)

ryanj92 said:


> If people are worrying about sanitary issues, why is the solution to remove the event and not enforce compulsory measures to keep the event sanitary? Hand gel/disposable gloves/wipes are all inexpensive measures that would solve this problem...



Agreed.

Don't say it's too complex or annoying. I'm pretty sure that putting on gloves is not going to make your life nearly as bad as it would be for people that practice if the event got removed.


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## Kirjava (Aug 17, 2013)

elrog said:


> This whole time you've gone on about this, you've never actually said any reason other than you don't like it. *Explain your reason if you have one!*



I never said I had any reasons to remove it in the first place, so I didn't make a thread about it because of that.

I never even said I dislike it, I'm getting bored of people constantly making assumptions like this.

Maybe the issue of how it marrs the image of speedcubing, turning it into little more than a novelty? Or the fact that feet cubing is not very deep. It doesn't add much of a new dimension to solving a 3x3x3 as OH does, and the evolution of times that people are getting has basically stayed static since we first started holding the event.


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## cubizh (Aug 17, 2013)

Benyó said:


> i'd like to see some statistics of how many competition held feet in the past some years and what percentage of the competitors competed in it. can someone do it? it will be shocking.



I already did it here and here.

You can see feet is, for whatever reason the event that has grown the most in the last two years, in number of competitions. This is just statistics, it's up to you to take any conclusion on the whys or hows.

Concerning moving it to average of 5, it all depends on the *objective criteria being used by the WCA to move events* within 9b). I can't make a more informed oppinion without knowing why previous event have changed.

I can only put out some bullet points that have previously been discussed in other threads about the event in its entirety, either moving it from 9b2) to 9b1) or wiping it out completely:


Megaminx is average of 5. As you can see here, and as a general idea, megaminx solves are usually a lot longer than feet. It's also safe to assume scrambling megaminx takes longer than scrambling 3x3. However, from my first link, megaminx is considerably more popular than feet. Time vs popularity?
Moving 6x6 from Mo3 to Average of 5 would take more/less/equal time in practice than moving feet from Mo3 to Average of 5? Time vs popularity?
737 people have competed in this event.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but in terms of required equipment for feet, isn't it less than for any other event? Doesn't it not even require a table?
As someone mentioned before, if feet is 3x3 with a handicap, it puts feet and OH on the same boat. They both have their own algs and fingertricks and require a technique that needs a lot of practice.
For some people it may be sociably awkward taking their shoes off and look at them wiggling around solving a cube. That's not going to change.
There is no going around it also, the feet event raises a problem with hygene, namely a distinctive smell and/or fungus. Of course, people's hands can be way dirtier and with a lot more bacteria than their feet that pass along to their cube and scramblers, but still if people are grossed out, just let the scramblers/runners/judges wear gloves(?) Make people solving provide them? As for the smell, will it be strong enough to make the event go away?

These are just some remarks I see that should be addressed by people mostly to the sake of the event. I see a lot of people saying they don't like the event but very few go beyond and detail what's wrong with it or say why they are uncomfortable with it.

Also, I dislike seeing people saying Vincent and Lucas (and whoever else with decision power) don't like feet as if that's a reason they are pushing for their removal or irrelevancy.
They are in that position they are because they can be impartial in their decisions, potentially even going against their own personal preferences, for the sake of the community, and to persue WCA's mission. So I'm sure any event change is to be addressed with *sound objective criteria* that has nothing to do with personal preferences.


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## antoineccantin (Aug 17, 2013)

aceofspades98 said:


> @ everyone who enjoys feet. Remember there were a whole lot of people who enjoyed magic and mm as well, but they too had there favorite event removed. Do you see them complaining now?



This argument is invalid. My main event was Master Magic before it was removed, and now feet is my second best event.


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## Coolster01 (Aug 17, 2013)

I still don't get the OH and feet argument about them being "the same". I absolutely suck at OH, with a 22-24 average, but I guess I am decent at feet solving, averaging about 46. I really don't enjoy OH, but I have always enjoyed feet solving.


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## Skullush (Aug 17, 2013)

Coolster01 said:


> I still don't get the OH and feet argument about them being "the same". I absolutely suck at OH, with a 22-24 average, but I guess I am decent at feet solving, averaging about 46. I really don't enjoy OH, but I have always enjoyed feet solving.



They're similar in that they are both variations of solving a 3x3


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## Thompson (Aug 17, 2013)

antoineccantin said:


> He says it's a "step in the wrong direction" for him because he wants the event removed entirely.



He says it's a "step in the wrong direction" because he likes to make puns about feetsolving


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## Coolster01 (Aug 17, 2013)

Skullush said:


> They're similar in that they are both variations of solving a 3x3


 
I don't see a problem with that, it's like a 200m dash and 50x4 dash kinda. So what? It's just another challenge and requires different skills, as I said before. 

At the feet comps I've been to, they definitely wear gloves, and they don't seem to care about cleanliness. Hands are like just as dirty, as someone mentioned. It's not hard to quickly use sanitizing wipes on stackmats, so the mats will be fine to use for events after feetsolving.


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## Dene (Aug 17, 2013)

Coolster01 said:


> I don't see a problem with that, it's like a 200m dash and 50x4 dash kinda. So what? It's just another challenge and requires different skills, as I said before.



So we should add chopstick solving too right? And solving with elbows. And solving with just your tongue. We might as well have a category for solving with brain power only (although I suspect this won't ever get results).

See where I'm going with this?


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## qqwref (Aug 17, 2013)

PatrickJameson said:


> Feet makes cubing look less legitimate and just silly. Also, many people find it gross and don't want to scramble/judge it.





BaMiao said:


> It gives the wrong impression to non cubers and is a roadblock to any attempts at getting the general population to take cubing seriously.





ryanj92 said:


> The more general reaction for feet has been shock/confusion





Kirjava said:


> feet cubing is not very deep. It doesn't add much of a new dimension to solving a 3x3x3 as OH does





cubizh said:


> For some people it may be sociably awkward taking their shoes off and look at them wiggling around solving a cube. That's not going to change.





cubizh said:


> the feet event raises a problem with hygene, namely a distinctive smell and/or fungus


I agree with all these reasons. Whether feet is removed or not, I will never be a fan of it. It's not dignified and doesn't lead to the creation of any new theory or method ideas.

It's not like I'm arguing that nobody should ever do feetsolves, though. But it should be an unofficial event, not something we show to the world as one of our main competitive disciplines. There are many unofficial events that are extremely fun and interesting, by the way - computer cubing, relays, marathons, team blind, linear FMC, and so on. Basically, we should only include events in competition when they are good for the development of the sport.


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## Coolster01 (Aug 17, 2013)

Dene said:


> So we should add chopstick solving too right? And solving with elbows. And solving with just your tongue. We might as well have a category for solving with brain power only (although I suspect this won't ever get results).
> 
> See where I'm going with this?



If somebody could sub-1, I suppose.  

Feet really isn't handicapped nearly as much as people think, it's like when you first start OH: It seems handicapped, but it really isn't. After a while, it starts becoming more and more of a speedsolve. 

If you practice feetsolving, it becomes about TPS and look ahead, not being able to turn it. That's about the barrier for more 3x3 events, where if the challenge is being able to turn it or TPS + look ahead. I can't think of another way to solve a 3x3 where turning it is not the challenge.


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## jayefbe (Aug 17, 2013)

Coolster01 said:


> If you practice feetsolving, it becomes about TPS and look ahead, not being able to turn it. That's about the barrier for more 3x3 events, where if the challenge is being able to turn it or TPS + look ahead. I can't think of another way to solve a 3x3 where turning it is not the challenge.



Umm...what?

This is the entire thread in two sentences: Feet solvers like feet. Everyone else hates it. 

This almost never happens for other events. I don't solve BLD or 7x7 or megaminx. I still fully enjoy those events, and see their value. I don't solve feet, and I genuinely dislike it. Sure, some people don't like certain events, everyone has their preferences. But there isn't any event that is disliked by the majority of the cubing community other than 3x3 with feet. If most people that love cubing dislike feetsolving, that is a perfectly valid reason to remove the event. It's ridiculous not to take the opinion of the majority into consideration when it comes to these issues. 

I think feet solvers need to see how non-cubers (and non-feet solvers) truly view the event. It marginalizes speed cubing, it's a novelty, it's a sideshow. It takes a "weird" hobby, and makes it even weirder. The attention that feet solving gets from non-cubers isn't due to genuine interest or admiration, it's because it's incredibly odd and bizarre. It's not taken seriously by anyone other than feet solvers, and negatively affects the way the entire hobby is viewed. Get rid of it.


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## MaikeruKonare (Aug 17, 2013)

I like feet it takes me 4-6 minutes but it's still fun.


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## uberCuber (Aug 17, 2013)

Coolster01 said:


> If somebody could sub-1, I suppose.



Feetsolving wasn't sub-1 when it was first introduced as an event, either. :s

yes I know cubes were really bad back then


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## slinky773 (Aug 17, 2013)

Wait, how did feet solving become an official WCA competition anyway? TBH it sounds weird that a committee decided one day that they'd like to have people start solving with their feet. was it in popular demand once?


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## tseitsei (Aug 17, 2013)

Coolster01 said:


> If somebody could sub-1, I suppose.



WHAT?

This is the worst argument I have ever read... Please explain how somebody being able to sub-1 some event has anything to do with making said event official.
Or are you saying that any event that someone can't do sub-1 shouldn't be official? (6x6, 7x7, 4bld, 5bld, maybe also fmc and mbld depending how you think of it)
If so then that's even more stupid...


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## Meep (Aug 17, 2013)

antoineccantin said:


> This argument is invalid. My main event was Master Magic before it was removed, and now feet is my second best event.



It currently being your second best event doesn't invalidate the argument.


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## slinky773 (Aug 17, 2013)

tseitsei said:


> WHAT?
> 
> This is the worst argument I have ever read... Please explain how somebody being able to sub-1 some event has anything to do with making said event official.
> Or are you saying that any event that someone can't do sub-1 shouldn't be official? (6x6, 7x7, 4bld, 5bld, maybe also fmc and mbld depending how you think of it)
> If so then that's even more stupid...



I think he was joking…


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## Coolster01 (Aug 17, 2013)

Guys, read the ENTIRE post next time, I said if it was sub 1 and then went on to say that that's about the speed barrier where it starts to become about turning fast and look ahead, NOT being able to turn it.

EDIT: And yes, I was joking because that's physically impossible with those handicaps. I was SPECIFICALLY talking about the 3x3 handicapped events. NOT ALL WCA EVENTS!!!!

EDIT 2: This brings up another thing. Non cubers are always grossed out, yet baffled when I tell them about the event. But they really can't imagine what it looks like, so they ask me to do it. I find that as soon as I start doing it, they aren't grossed out at all and are amazed just as much as when I do BLD. This is just from my experience, I'm just sayin' non cubers aren't grossed out when you show them.


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## Sa967St (Aug 17, 2013)

slinky773 said:


> Wait, how did feet solving become an official WCA competition anyway? TBH it sounds weird that a committee decided one day that they'd like to have people start solving with their feet. was it in popular demand once?



Anders Larsson told this story at the regulations meeting at Worlds. The tl;dr version is that the media wanted it and they it looked cool on TV, so it stuck as an event.


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## XTowncuber (Aug 17, 2013)

jayefbe said:


> Umm...what?
> 
> This is the entire thread in two sentences: Feet solvers like feet. Everyone else hates it.
> 
> ...


This. I do not enjoy BLD, but I would definitely argue to keep it. I do not enjoy OH, but I would argue to keep it. Feet is just gross. When someone sees a BLD or OH solve they think it's amazing. When they see a feet solve they think it's disgusting. Just get rid of it already.


----------



## cubizh (Aug 17, 2013)

Hasn't this thread started as discussion to move feet to average of 5 instead of removal of feet?


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## tim (Aug 17, 2013)

Coolster01 said:


> Non cubers are always grossed out





XTowncuber said:


> When they see a feet solve they think it's disgusting.



I don't have any strong opinions either way, but I'm really curious: Is it common for people to be grossed out when they hear about feet solving? Every time I tell non-cubers about my "ability" (~5min) to solve a cube with my feet, most of them are really amazed and want to see it immediately. Everyone else doesn't seem to care. But I've yet to come across someone who finds it "gross". 

Besides that, I might have an argument for keeping it: Having feet solving as an official event encourages people to actually practice it. So the WCA would be "responsible" (that word might be a bit of a stretch) for better flexibility of their cubers. There are people in our modern shoe society who can't even grab a footbag with their feet...


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## Robocopter87 (Aug 17, 2013)

Coolster01 said:


> I'm pretty sure that Oceania is the only popular cubing place in the world where feet solving times are slow.
> 
> Here in North America, we have quite a few people who are practicing all the time for NARs, which btw is not beaten very often even though these people compete in the event a lot. I really don't think 46.08 average and 39.00 is a cheap record.
> 
> ...




It seems your whole argument for keeping feet is that you hold the national record and don't want to lose the event you are good at.

In order to solve a problem you have to look at it objectively, without letting your own ambitions get in the way. I'd be more down with Elbow Solving than with feet. I say toss feet, for the reasons Patrick Jameson had.

Then again, I never really minded feet as an event, but if I were to vote for the decision, I would be against feet.


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## Rune (Aug 17, 2013)

I think we shoudn´t blame Anders so much as the Canadian(!) woman journalist, who interviewed him on phone before the WC 2003 in Toronto. Anders said more a less as a joke: "I have even done it with my feet"! She made a story of it and that way it went further.


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## Kirjava (Aug 17, 2013)

Rune said:


> I think we shoudn´t blame Anders so much as the Canadian(!) woman journalist, who interviewed him on phone before the WC 2003 in Toronto. Anders said more a less as a joke: "I have even done it with my feet"! She made a story of it and that way it went further.



*oh my god*


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## scottishcuber (Aug 17, 2013)

i always knew feet was a joke...literally(?)


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## Coolster01 (Aug 17, 2013)

If it's gross, don't watch the event. Just have fun talking to other competitors, it's really not hard to ignore it because it's always on the side stage.


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## tseitsei (Aug 17, 2013)

Coolster01 said:


> If it's gross, don't watch the event. Just have fun talking to other competitors, it's really not hard to ignore it because it's always on the side stage.



Again not a good argument at all...
That argument could be used to make literally ANYTHING official. "If you don't like it just ignore it"

So should we make solving rubiks cube naked an official event? I think not, because it's disturbing and quite gross(+ many other reasons). But hey maybe I should "just ignore it because I don't like it"

No just no... So wrong...


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## Coolster01 (Aug 17, 2013)

tseitsei said:


> Again not a good argument at all...
> That argument could be used to make literally ANYTHING official. "If you don't like it just ignore it"
> 
> So should we make solving rubiks cube naked an official event? I think not, because it's disturbing and quite gross(+ many other reasons). But hey maybe I should "just ignore it because I don't like it"
> ...



OK, you're right. That _is_ an invalid argument.

It's really such a hard event that I spent all this time getting somewhat OK at. I just don't see how it's that disgusting, give a real life example of when it actually disturbed you or someone else. I've never seen anybody at a comp grossed out by feetsolving, I often see quite a crowd watching the event (Indiana 2012). Spectators love it.


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## Kirjava (Aug 17, 2013)

Coolster01 said:


> OK, you're right. That _is_ an invalid argument.



What is happening to this website


----------



## BaMiao (Aug 17, 2013)

Coolster01 said:


> I just don't see how it's that disgusting, give a real life example of when it actually disturbed you or someone else. I've never seen anybody at a comp grossed out by feetsolving, I often see quite a crowd watching the event (Indiana 2012). Spectators love it.



The first time my wife saw feet solving, she furled her nose, turned to me, and said "you're not going to start doing _that_ are you?" This might be unfair, since she's a huge germaphobe.

She then pulled out her phone and took a video, so she could laugh about it with her friends later. I don't think the crowd attention that feet gets is all positive. Train wrecks get lots of attention, too.


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## uberCuber (Aug 17, 2013)

Coolster01 said:


> I've never seen anybody at a comp grossed out by feetsolving



Yeah, because the people that are grossed out by the event are doing their best to ignore the fact that it is happening, not standing in front of the feetsolvers and watching them while proclaiming to everyone around how gross it is.


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## Swordsman Kirby (Aug 17, 2013)

BaMiao said:


> Train wrecks get lots of attention, too.



Did you just compare solving a Rubik's Cube with feet to train wrecks?


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## Stefan (Aug 17, 2013)

Here's [post=890506]the best reason to remove feet[/post]. I wanna be there!


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## BaMiao (Aug 18, 2013)

Swordsman Kirby said:


> Did you just compare solving a Rubik's Cube with feet to train wrecks?



I was pointing out that crowd attention isn't always a good thing.


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## qqwref (Aug 18, 2013)

tim said:


> Besides that, I might have an argument for keeping it: Having feet solving as an official event encourages people to actually practice it. So the WCA would be "responsible" (that word might be a bit of a stretch) for better flexibility of their cubers. There are people in our modern shoe society who can't even grab a footbag with their feet...


I don't think this has anything to do with "flexibility", but it's true that being able to move your feet precisely is a different ability that many people don't have. The question is, though, is it at all useful? Do we gain anything (outside of feetsolving or playing hacky sack) from having this ability, and do we lose anything from not having it?

If someone needs to precisely manipulate something on the ground, even if they happen to already be barefoot, they are just not very likely to sit down and manipulate it with their feet. It's easier to bend/sit down and do the same action with their hands, and I'd wager this is true even for experienced footsolvers. (Compare a 35 second footsolve vs. 5 seconds of picking up the cube + a 15 second speedsolve.) In addition, many of the popular things which involve lower-body movement skills, such as dancing or martial arts, involve large-scale movement (whole leg) rather than small-scale movement (precise movements of feet and toes), and the two are very different. So unless you don't have functional hands, I can't think of any situations - outside of games or events specifically designed to test foot dexterity - where this ability would provide any benefit. It seems like much more of a novelty skill than an essential ability.


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## makssl6911 (Aug 18, 2013)

I know no one cares about my opinion, but anyway;
I don't care about feet. I couldn't care less. But, i myself am a fan of ADDING more events, like skewb and 2x2 bld(lel).
I feel like feet should be there, since it is here. There is no point of removing more events! You are only limiting what people can do by removing another event. Feet is also a "small" event, and even though it's hated by many(?), i can't see how it's bothering you. I mean, it's gross? It's like eating burgers with your hands is gross.. It may be, but sheesh, get over it. 
Why we should keep it:
-Dosen't require alot of space.
-Scrambling is not a problem.
-It is a relativelly un-explored event, and many records will be set/beaten quickly.
-It made it into the WCA events, why take it out now?
I personally say, keep feet, add skewb, and send me a free cube.
Just my two cents, though.


----------



## BaMiao (Aug 18, 2013)

makssl6911 said:


> I know no one cares about my opinion, but anyway;
> I don't care about feet. I couldn't care less. But, i myself am a fan of ADDING more events, like skewb and 2x2 bld(lel).
> I feel like feet should be there, since it is here. There is no point of removing more events! You are only limiting what people can do by removing another event. Feet is also a "small" event, and even though it's hated by many(?), i can't see how it's bothering you. I mean, it's gross? It's like eating burgers with your hands is gross.. It may be, but sheesh, get over it.
> Why we should keep it:
> ...



You can't just add events willy-nilly. Every added event requires additional time, space, and staffing for any competition that is doing it. Any additional event that you don't like makes it less likely that comps in your area will do events you want to compete in. At large comps like worlds, the additional resource strain will lead to harsher cutoffs or fewer rounds of other events.


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## cubizh (Aug 18, 2013)

I wonder if there was ever a competitor that did feet due to handicap (no fingers/hands).


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## ryanj92 (Aug 18, 2013)

I say feet can stay as long as it continues to provide threads as beautiful as this one


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## antoineccantin (Aug 18, 2013)

Stefan said:


> Here's [post=890506]the best reason to remove feet[/post]. I wanna be there!



Then compete in feet?



qqwref said:


> I don't think this has anything to do with "flexibility", but it's true that being able to move your feet precisely is a different ability that many people don't have. The question is, though, is it at all useful? Do we gain anything (outside of feetsolving or playing hacky sack) from having this ability, and do we lose anything from not having it?



Do we don't gain anything useful from any other speed solving?



cubizh said:


> I wonder if there was ever a competitor that did feet due to handicap (no fingers/hands).





Divineskulls said:


> iirc there was.


----------



## Stefan (Aug 18, 2013)

antoineccantin said:


> Then compete in feet?



Mehhhh... I don't really want to...


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## antoineccantin (Aug 18, 2013)

Stefan said:


> Mehhhh... I don't really want to...



Then you have no excuse for not being on the list. It's completely your fault, you've competed in a ton of competitions holding Feet. YOU SHOULD FEEL ASHAMED OF YOURSELF.


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## qqwref (Aug 18, 2013)

cubizh said:


> I wonder if there was ever a competitor that did feet due to handicap (no fingers/hands).


Yes. I remember hearing about this guy from some of the older California cubers. His name was Will Arnold. Other links: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Sansbras/thepageiusedtohaveup http://leyanlo.xanga.com/269500368/item/



antoineccantin said:


> Do we don't gain anything useful from any other speed solving?


Well, there's actual dexterity and finger speed, which are useful for plenty of other things. But I was really responding to the argument that feet is a useful addition to cubing because it helps us learn a useful ability, so whether the whole of cubing is useful isn't so important.


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## tim (Aug 18, 2013)

qqwref said:


> I don't think this has anything to do with "flexibility", but it's true that being able to move your feet precisely is a different ability that many people don't have. The question is, though, is it at all useful? Do we gain anything (outside of feetsolving or playing hacky sack) from having this ability, and do we lose anything from not having it?
> 
> If someone needs to precisely manipulate something on the ground, even if they happen to already be barefoot, they are just not very likely to sit down and manipulate it with their feet. It's easier to bend/sit down and do the same action with their hands, and I'd wager this is true even for experienced footsolvers. (Compare a 35 second footsolve vs. 5 seconds of picking up the cube + a 15 second speedsolve.) In addition, many of the popular things which involve lower-body movement skills, such as dancing or martial arts, involve large-scale movement (whole leg) rather than small-scale movement (precise movements of feet and toes), and the two are very different. So unless you don't have functional hands, I can't think of any situations - outside of games or events specifically designed to test foot dexterity - where this ability would provide any benefit. It seems like much more of a novelty skill than an essential ability.



True, "flexibility" isn't really the word I was looking for.

The argument I wanted to make wasn't about the ability (and its usefulness) itself*, but more about the overall "health" of the human body. Best compared to our crippled backs which are also a side effect of our modern society (because we sit in front of desks/computers all day long).

Also: I think that martial arts and dancing require about as much (if not more) feet moving skills as hacky sack. I'm only good at hacky sack, so I can't say for sure, though.

*Sorry for the confusion. I feel kinda bad for forcing you to counter my argument I actually didn't want to make. :/


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## Dene (Aug 18, 2013)

Coolster01 said:


> If somebody could sub-1, I suppose.
> 
> Feet really isn't handicapped nearly as much as people think, it's like when you first start OH: It seems handicapped, but it really isn't. After a while, it starts becoming more and more of a speedsolve.
> 
> If you practice feetsolving, it becomes about TPS and look ahead, not being able to turn it. That's about the barrier for more 3x3 events, where if the challenge is being able to turn it or TPS + look ahead. I can't think of another way to solve a 3x3 where turning it is not the challenge.



If your comments are directed specifically at me, and not to everyone in general, then I should inform you that I am a perfectly competent feet solver. Many years ago I practised regularly and got down to around a minute average. i.e. I know what feet solving entails.


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## Coolster01 (Aug 18, 2013)

Dene said:


> If your comments are directed specifically at me, and not to everyone in general, then I should inform you that I am a perfectly competent feet solver. Many years ago I practised regularly and got down to around a minute average. i.e. I know what feet solving entails.



It was directed to everyone in general. But I didn't know you were around a minute, wow!


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## Tim Major (Aug 18, 2013)

jayefbe said:


> Umm...what?This is the entire thread in two sentences: Feet solvers like feet. Everyone else hates it. This almost never happens for other events. I don't solve BLD or 7x7 or megaminx. I still fully enjoy those events, and see their value. I don't solve feet, and I genuinely dislike it. Sure, some people don't like certain events, everyone has their preferences. But there isn't any event that is disliked by the majority of the cubing community other than 3x3 with feet. If most people that love cubing dislike feetsolving, that is a perfectly valid reason to remove the event. It's ridiculous not to take the opinion of the majority into consideration when it comes to these issues. I think feet solvers need to see how non-cubers (and non-feet solvers) truly view the event. It marginalizes speed cubing, it's a novelty, it's a sideshow. It takes a "weird" hobby, and makes it even weirder. The attention that feet solving gets from non-cubers isn't due to genuine interest or admiration, it's because it's incredibly odd and bizarre. It's not taken seriously by anyone other than feet solvers, and negatively affects the way the entire hobby is viewed. Get rid of it.


I agree with everything stated in this post. As for "we need a proper reason". How is "the majority of nonfeetsolvers dislike the event" not a valid reason?


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## aceofspades98 (Aug 18, 2013)

Although the majority of feet solvers dislike it, that isn't a completely valid reason to remove it. May I ask what percentage of cubers that dislike it have really tried to do it before? 
Just to be clear, I don't like feet either.


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## Tim Major (Aug 18, 2013)

Coolster01 said:


> OK, you're right. That _is_ an invalid argument.
> 
> It's really such a hard event that I spent all this time getting somewhat OK at. I just don't see how it's that disgusting, give a real life example of when it actually disturbed you or someone else. I've never seen anybody at a comp grossed out by feetsolving, I often see quite a crowd watching the event (Indiana 2012). Spectators love it.



How is it in any way a hard event. At one point I just grabbed a cube and solved it with feet to see if I could be bothered practising for OCR and I had no trouble solving it, it was just very slow at first. You don't need to learn anything new, it's exactly the same as 3x3.


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## Dene (Aug 18, 2013)

I think it is a good point that there is absolutely nothing new with feet from normal 3x3. At least with OH you have to practise new techniques and algorithms, and generally approach solving a bit differently. With feet it is exactly the same thing but just using one foot to hold the cube in place and the other to force a layer to turn. 

If people really want to feet solve, they can do so during normal 3x3 anyway...


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## porkynator (Aug 18, 2013)

I honestly don't care about feetsolving being an official event or not.
But IF it has to be removed, how about removing it 18-24 months after the decision has been made? For example: WCA states now that feet will not be an official event anymore starting from 1/1/2015.
This way, I think, it will be less painful for people who are good at/practice/like feet. They will have more time to set new records/enjoy the event/decide what to do with their lives.
Anyway, if I HAD to choose, I would vote for keeping it.


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## Coolster01 (Aug 18, 2013)

Tim Major said:


> How is it in any way a hard event. At one point I just grabbed a cube and solved it with feet to see if I could be bothered practising for OCR and I had no trouble solving it, it was just very slow at first. You don't need to learn anything new, it's exactly the same as 3x3.





Dene said:


> I think it is a good point that there is absolutely nothing new with feet from normal 3x3. At least with OH you have to practise new techniques and algorithms, and generally approach solving a bit differently. With feet it is exactly the same thing but just using one foot to hold the cube in place and the other to force a layer to turn.
> 
> If people really want to feet solve, they can do so during normal 3x3 anyway...



No, it's tough to get good at here in North America. As I said before, australia is the only continent that has quite a few cubers but cheap feet records. You even stated that you weren't fast at first, so what's your point? Let's just say sub-50 is hard to get.

Feet is different when it comes to moves. I am one of the few who don't, but MANY solve with cross on F. Although turning is faster, lookahead is anything but easy. It really helps lookahead for when you go back to normal/OH solving (which is kinda offtopic because it isn't really different turning, but sometimes different angles cause the need to apply different moves). I personally change my feet solves more than my OH solves. There are also different PLL algs that many sub-50 solvers learn. I use about 3-5 different algs because I'm lazy.  And, of course, many use Petrus.

EDIT: lol sorry if the first part came off as rude about australia, just defending my point. And if someone told you pyraminx was a tough event, would you really assume that they think pyraminx is a hard puzzle to solve?


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## antoineccantin (Aug 18, 2013)

Coolster01 said:


> No, it's tough to get good at here in North America.



lol NARs are slow.


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## Coolster01 (Aug 18, 2013)

antoineccantin said:


> lol NARs are slow.



Well, he was talking about OcR, which compared to NAR is slow and NAR is fast... But yeah, it's slow. For now...


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## qqwref (Aug 18, 2013)

The quality of a record has nothing to do with the inherent difficulty of an event. It just means you have to practice the event more to get a record.


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## Swordsman Kirby (Aug 18, 2013)

Dene said:


> I think it is a good point that there is absolutely nothing new with feet from normal 3x3. At least with OH you have to practise new techniques and algorithms, and generally approach solving a bit differently. With feet it is exactly the same thing but just using one foot to hold the cube in place and the other to force a layer to turn.



I'm surprised you, as someone who practiced feet a lot, would say something like that.


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## Dene (Aug 19, 2013)

It's true though... there are no "toe-tricks" or special techniques that I am aware of. It's just brute force, and awkward at that. I mean sure, as you do it you get better at holding the cube, and I guess your toes do get slightly improved technical ability, but really it's not worth even mentioning.


----------



## Coolster01 (Aug 19, 2013)

Dene said:


> It's true though... there are no "toe-tricks" or special techniques that I am aware of. It's just brute force, and awkward at that. I mean sure, as you do it you get better at holding the cube, and I guess your toes do get slightly improved technical ability, but really it's not worth even mentioning.


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## ottozing (Aug 19, 2013)

aaaaaand how many feet solvers have actually implemented that into their solves since that video was made almost a year ago?


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## Coolster01 (Aug 19, 2013)

ottozing said:


> aaaaaand how many feet solvers have actually implemented that into their solves since that video was made almost a year ago?



I use it on PLL sometimes. 

Probably 0. xD

EDIT: The only reason I don't use it is because my feet are too tiny. It hurts my feet because of that lol.


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## Pedro (Aug 19, 2013)

Kirjava said:


> Or the fact that feet cubing is not very deep. It doesn't add much of a new dimension to solving a 3x3x3 as OH does, and the evolution of times that people are getting has basically stayed static since we first started holding the event.



Well, I have to disagree here. I find feet cubing to be very complicated to do, and I think it "adds much of a new dimension to solving a 3x3x3" just the same as OH does.

For feet solving, you have to change the way you "hold" the cube, the angle at where you look at it, the way you make turns, new algs, etc. I wonder how people don't get confused in the middle of a long PLL in which they turn the cube a few times and move 2 or 3 different layers.

As for the evolution, look here: (I'm sure you already did, but probably not everybody)
https://www.worldcubeassociation.or...egionId=&eventId=333ft&years=&history=History

I think going from 5 minutes to 30 seconds is quite good.

Take OH, for example. It went from ~45 to 12.

I'm not a big fan of feet solving, specially because of the logistics (having to move the timers out/back to the tables, moving chairs and such) and because lot of non-fast people do it, at least here. I'd probably be a little happier if it became unofficial, but I'm not sure it should.

The media here in Brazil seems to LOVE feet cubing. It's almost always a headline whenever they cover a competition. I don't know how many people find it gross/disgusting or damaging to the speedcubing image, but as someone already said, we don't look exactly "serious" turning our stupid little cubes real fast, traveling around and competing for no good prizes. I personally don't think it affects our image in a bad way.


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## Kirjava (Aug 19, 2013)

Pedro said:


> I think going from 5 minutes to 30 seconds is quite good.
> 
> Take OH, for example. It went from ~45 to 12.



In the last six years OH times halved, but feet times were merely cut by a quarter.


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## Noahaha (Aug 19, 2013)

Pedro said:


> The media here in Brazil seems to LOVE feet cubing. *It's almost always a headline whenever they cover a competition.* I don't know how many people find it gross/disgusting or damaging to the speedcubing image, but as someone already said, we don't look exactly "serious" turning our stupid little cubes real fast, traveling around and competing for no good prizes. I personally don't think it affects our image in a bad way.



Thus transforming "speedcubers" into "those people who solve Rubik's cubes with their feet." 

That's what sucks about feet. Other than that I'm ok with it.


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## antoineccantin (Aug 19, 2013)

Kirjava said:


> In the last six years OH times halved, but feet times were merely cut by a quarter.



How much an event has improved in recent years isn't at all a good judge of the quality of an event.


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## Kirjava (Aug 19, 2013)

antoineccantin said:


> How much an event has improved in recent years isn't at all a good judge of the quality of an event.



I disagree to a certain extent, and I was mostly countering Pedro's argument that feet is improving more than OH with actual facts..


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## Stefan (Aug 19, 2013)

Kirjava said:


> I disagree to a certain extent, and I was mostly countering Pedro's argument that feet is improving more than OH with actual facts..



Well, you said _"basically stayed static *since we first started holding the event*"_, and Pedro then correctly showed the progress since back then. *Your* _"actual facts"_ are the ones not matching the range you yourself had brought up.


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## Kirjava (Aug 19, 2013)

Stefan said:


> You were the one saying _"basically stayed static *since we first started holding the event*"_, and Pedro then correctly showed the progress. *Your* _"actual facts"_ are the ones not matching the range you yourself had brought up.



True, I shifted the range. 

I did this because I considered initial results for events to be anomalous (which they are). If you agree with this you'll see why taking a range from recent years is a better measure of progress.


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## cubizh (Aug 19, 2013)

I just posted this on another thread but I think it may be useful here:



Spoiler


----------



## Renslay (Aug 19, 2013)

cubizh said:


> I just posted this on another thread but I think it may be useful here:
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler



Uhm, can you explain it what does it mean?


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## vcuber13 (Aug 19, 2013)

for example the 5x5 world record was 25% slower 3 years ago


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## cubizh (Aug 19, 2013)

Renslay said:


> Uhm, can you explain it what does it mean?



Sure, it means that the WR single for feet 5 years ago was 132,3% compared to what it is now, for instance.


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## Renslay (Aug 19, 2013)

cubizh said:


> Sure, it means that the WR single for feet 5 years ago was 132,3% compared to what it is now, for instance.



Okay, I see now. I was confused that not everything was 100% in the first column, now I just realized because it starts with "1 year ago", and not "currently" (which would be all 100% of course).


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## Mike Hughey (Aug 19, 2013)

Kirjava said:


> True, I shifted the range.
> 
> I did this because I considered initial results for events to be anomalous (which they are). If you agree with this you'll see why taking a range from recent years is a better measure of progress.



You definitely cherry-picked that range, though. From cubizh's chart, feet single has improved more over the last 3 years than OH single. OH apparently went through a huge improvement relative to some other events between 3 and 4 years ago. I'd argue a large part of that might be due to quality of the hardware, which doesn't affect feet quite as much as it does OH.

If we extrapolate world temperatures for the past 3 years, can't we show that we have a serious global cooling problem?


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## uberCuber (Aug 19, 2013)

Mike Hughey said:


> From cubizh's chart, feet single has improved more over the last 3 years than OH single.



Wasn't that OH single set with an LL skip, though? If I am remembering this correctly, than surely we shouldn't expect OH to improve as much as feet?


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## Stefan (Aug 19, 2013)

cubizh said:


> I just posted this on another thread but I think it may be useful here:



Magic and master magic have the longest green streak, and they were removed. Feet is next. And then 3x3.


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## ryanj92 (Aug 19, 2013)

I think 100th place single or average would be a better indication of progression, like uberCuber said WR singles can be pretty lucky


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## uberCuber (Aug 19, 2013)

ryanj92 said:


> I think 100th place single or average would be a better indication of progression



This would be a cool thing to look at, though we have to remember that years ago there weren't very many competitors and some events didn't even have a 100th place yet.


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## Kirjava (Aug 19, 2013)

Mike Hughey said:


> You definitely cherry-picked that range, though.



I honestly didn't do it just because it showed what I wanted it to show.


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## kinch2002 (Aug 19, 2013)

Cubizh's table just shows that Anssi was really quite far ahead of his time in feet


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## Mike Hughey (Aug 19, 2013)

kinch2002 said:


> Cubizh's table just shows that Anssi was really quite far ahead of his time in feet



Very true. I have a feeling multiBLD might look like this in a few years too.


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## Pedro (Aug 19, 2013)

Kirjava said:


> I honestly didn't do it just because it showed what I wanted it to show.



Isn't that what Mike said? (I'm not that familiar with native english expressions).

My point was that feet is improving at a good rate. If you take the top-100 from 2009 until now, this is what happened:


```
| 2009  | 2010  | 2011  | 2012  | Today
---------------------------------------------
1st   | 36.72 | 36.72 | 31.56 | 27.93 | 27.93    (24% less)
10th  | 1:03  | 50.56 | 44.08 | 39.94 | 33.11    (48%)
50th  | 2:19  | 1:42  | 1:22  | 1:04  | 57.06    (59%)
100th | 4:19  | 2:27  | 1:50  | 1:24  | 1:15    (71%)

Avg   | 2:24  | 1:41  | 1:17  | 1:01  | 55.93    (62%)
```

The improvement is probably not as good as other events because there are far less people doing feet, but you can see that overall people got a lot better.

Again, I don't really like feet, and would probably vote to have it removed. But I don't see enough good arguments against it.


----------



## Stefan (Aug 19, 2013)

uberCuber said:


> ryanj92 said:
> 
> 
> > I think 100th place single or average would be a better indication of progression
> ...



_"Would be"_?
=> https://www.worldcubeassociation.org/results/misc/evolution/



uberCuber said:


> though we have to remember that years ago there weren't very many competitors and some events didn't even have a 100th place yet.



Then look at 10th place.


----------



## Mike Hughey (Aug 19, 2013)

Pedro said:


> Isn't that what Mike said? (I'm not that familiar with native english expressions).



When I said he cherry-picked it, I implied he carefully picked the best possible range to favor his point of view. He was stating that he didn't do it on purpose, and I believe him. Still, it was a pretty lucky choice on his part. I think you've made a good case that feet is improving at a good rate.


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## kinch2002 (Aug 19, 2013)

Feet is still growing in popularity, the strength in depth of the event is clearly increasing, and the very fastest people are breaking records. That's a far more persuasive argument to me when considering whether it should be kept than 'The WR single hasn't been improving enough'.


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## Coolster01 (Aug 19, 2013)

kinch2002 said:


> Feet is still growing in popularity, the strength in depth of the event is clearly increasing, and the very fastest people are breaking records. That's a far more persuasive argument to me when considering whether it should be kept than 'The WR single hasn't been improving enough'.



This. WR average was the most recent WR broken, and I think there's a ton of potential.


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## Kirjava (Aug 19, 2013)

My point about record evolution was completely misplaced in this discussion and is not relevant.

Fortunately, this doesn't detract from other points.


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## cubizh (Aug 19, 2013)

Here you can see the number of National Records for feet divided by country.

*Single*:


Spoiler




* Country	** NRs	* Denmark	 13	 Sweden	 12	 Netherlands	 12	 USA	 11	 Japan	 10	 China	 10	 Brazil	 9	 Taiwan	 9	 Canada	 8	 Poland	 8	 Norway	 8	 Germany	 7	 United Kingdom	 7	 Indonesia	 7	 Korea	 6	 France	 6	 Hungary	 6	 Spain	 6	 Finland	 5	 Thailand	 5	 Ukraine	 5	 Hong Kong	 4	 Colombia	 4	 India	 3	 Philippines	 3	 Estonia	 3	 Austria	 3	 Italy	 3	 Russia	 3	 Slovenia	 3	 Latvia	 3	 Belarus	 3	 Lithuania	 3	 Vietnam	 2	 Malaysia	 2	 Peru	 2	 Portugal	 2	 Aruba	 2	 Czech Republic	 2	 Mexico	 2	 Iran	 2	 New Zealand	 1	 Romania	 1	 Iceland	 1	 Chile	 1	 Singapore	 1	 Belgium	 1	 Mongolia	 1	 Ireland	 1	 South Africa	 1	 Australia	 1	




*Average*:


Spoiler




* Country	** NRs	* Denmark	 12	 Brazil	 12	 Sweden	 10	 China	 9	 Japan	 9	 Indonesia	 9	 Netherlands	 8	 Poland	 8	 France	 8	 Norway	 7	 Hungary	 6	 Taiwan	 6	 United Kingdom	 6	 Finland	 5	 USA	 5	 Germany	 5	 Korea	 4	 Canada	 4	 Spain	 4	 Ukraine	 4	 Philippines	 3	 Estonia	 3	 Italy	 3	 Hong Kong	 3	 Vietnam	 3	 Colombia	 3	 India	 2	 Russia	 2	 Thailand	 2	 Malaysia	 2	 Slovenia	 2	 Lithuania	 2	 Latvia	 2	 Mexico	 2	 Iran	 2	 Belarus	 2	 New Zealand	 1	 Chile	 1	 Singapore	 1	 Portugal	 1	 Czech Republic	 1	 Peru	 1	 Australia	 1


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## uberCuber (Aug 19, 2013)

Stefan said:


> _"Would be"_?
> => https://www.worldcubeassociation.org/results/misc/evolution/



o_o Did you recently add this, or have I really not noticed it there for a long time?


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## Swordsman Kirby (Aug 20, 2013)

Dene said:


> It's true though... there are no "toe-tricks" or special techniques that I am aware of. It's just brute force, and awkward at that. I mean sure, as you do it you get better at holding the cube, and I guess your toes do get slightly improved technical ability, but really it's not worth even mentioning.



Anssi does two-move "toe-tricks."


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## vcuber13 (Aug 20, 2013)

uberCuber said:


> o_o Did you recently add this, or have I really not noticed it there for a long time?



It's been around a while.

Perhaps a good way to see the progression would be to plot the 10%th person's time (total competitors/10), this should avoid a limited amount of competitors, or having 10 really good people at feet.

I don't really care if it stays or is removed, but I think it's quite silly.


----------



## Dene (Aug 20, 2013)

Coolster01 said:


> video



Only once in that video did you manage to pull that off efficiently. Perhaps it could be implemented, but that is one example of a "maybe". Clearly there is a significant lack of real development in feet solving.


----------



## Coolster01 (Aug 20, 2013)

Dene said:


> Only once in that video did you manage to pull that off efficiently. Perhaps it could be implemented, but that is one example of a "maybe". Clearly there is a significant lack of real development in feet solving.



I wish that was me. That was Hendrik Buus Aagard, and the video is almost a year old I think. It was his first attempt. He doesn't really use the trick, though, but I'm sure others do. I can do it pretty successfully. I would use it in my solves, but again, my feet are too small. I can make a video of me doing it easily. His cube is rather tight and isn't good for those kind of moves.


----------



## Dene (Aug 20, 2013)

Ok but my point is, other than doing it that once, he continues to screw it up every other attempt, and generally just does exactly what I said people do: he held the cube down with one foot and forced turns with the other big toe.


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## Coolster01 (Aug 20, 2013)

Dene said:


> Ok but my point is, other than doing it that once, he continues to screw it up every other attempt, and generally just does exactly what I said people do: he held the cube down with one foot and forced turns with the other big toe.



I'm saying that it was his first attempt and nobody is good from take one. When I first tried doing U moves Japanese style in OH, it was ridiculously hard. Same with the right and then left U2 double finger flick. 

And what about U moves? U moves are completely different, holding the bottom two layers and, depending on your foot size, either use your big toe or the bottom of your foot to turn the U layer. U' is the mirror obviously.


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## qqwref (Aug 20, 2013)

Honestly I think the fact that feetsolving is still stuck above 30 seconds shows just how awkward it is. Yes, of course there are little optimizations you can do, and you can practice the hell out of anything to get better at it. But you're still solving a 3x3x3 in over 30 seconds. Compare that to OH where the best solvers are getting times that would be pretty solid if they were 2h times, or BLD where the best people average under 20 seconds in execution. And because feet is so slow, thinking is a tiny part of it. I imagine all top feetsolvers can comfortably look ahead at twice this speed. My point is that feet just doesn't have the potential to compete with the other events in mental difficulty or turn speed.


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## antoineccantin (Aug 20, 2013)

qqwref said:


> And because feet is so slow, thinking is a tiny part of it. I imagine all top feetsolvers can comfortably look ahead at twice this speed. My point is that feet just doesn't have the potential to compete with the other events in mental difficulty or turn speed.



I don't know if you'd consider me a "top feetsolver", but I have a hard time looking a head in feet, and it isn't rare for me not to have found my next F2L pair. I'm sure that is common for other "top feetsolvers" as there is often pauses of a second or so i between pairs.


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## Skullush (Aug 20, 2013)

Biggest challenge in feetsolving is limited visibility of the cube


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## antoineccantin (Aug 20, 2013)

Skullush said:


> Biggest challenge in feetsolving is limited visibility of the cube



This.


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## AvGalen (Aug 20, 2013)

antoineccantin said:


> This.


Bigger cube, smaller feet, eyes closer to the cube...or just don't do feet


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## uberCuber (Aug 20, 2013)

AvGalen said:


> Bigger cube, smaller feet, eyes closer to the cube...or just don't do feet



Giant foot cube! It has to have that name for a reason, right?

...or you could just not do feet.


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## Skullush (Aug 20, 2013)

AvGalen said:


> Bigger cube, smaller feet, eyes closer to the cube...or just don't do feet



I mean, naturally you can only see ~3 sides at a time, and unlike speedsolve or OH, you can't just tilt the cube a little bit to look at one of the sides without seriously affecting your speed. Cube size has nothing to do with it, it's not as if the cube is so small that you can't see it. It's just that you have some sides that are completely not visible unless you stop and turn the cube over


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## PhillipEspinoza (Aug 20, 2013)

With all the slippery slope arguments and ad hominems I feel like this debate is exactly like the debate of same sex marriage in the US. You have people who _obviously_ have an issue with Feet, for whatever reason, who want to argue that Feet should NOT be allowed as a recognized event. They use their strong feelings against Feet to start up threads like this when really _it's not that big of a deal_ and argue passionately against something they believe is wrong. Then you have people who argue that Feet shouldn't be allowed as an official event because it compromises the sanctity of cubing (marriage) and that people won't take it seriously anymore. Then you have people saying well why don't we just let solving naked be an event? Why don't we allow dogs to marry? Why don't we just use slippery slopes? Then you have those who say you can simply ignore it, as it doesn't effect you (which is effin true). Then you have those who say "You can't just expect me to ignore it, it's icky". Then you have those saying that it would be a burden on competition organizers (churches) because running the event takes too long and is hard to find runners for and may go against their beliefs (forcing same sex marriage on churches that don't want them). 

Bottom line, hate to break it to you Pi, is that people should be allowed to marry (or cube) whoever (however) the heck they want CUZ IT DOESN'T *A*FFECT YOU. And you can argue till your blue in the face that it does in fact effect you but you would just be clinging on to your extreme hatred for something to explain why it does. "My children will have to learn about it" "Media will laugh at us. Uh, hate to break it to you again, but Feet solving doesn't make cubing less legitimate in the eyes of the world, CUBING makes cubing less legitimate in the eyes of the world. It's a toy! If you want to make cubing more serious and legitimate to the world, in my eyes, you need to have less 8-15 year olds doing it but does that mean we should have an age minimum? No, because that would be asserting my subjective bias/opinion, whether I can substantiate it or not, into WCA policies that would potentially (not even potentially, actually) take away from the fun for a good amount of people.


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## Kirjava (Aug 20, 2013)

PhillipEspinoza said:


> CUZ IT DOESN'T EFFECT[sic] YOU



Of course it does, and there are reasons posted in this thread other than people not liking it.

I implore you to read threads before posting in future.


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## Sajwo (Aug 20, 2013)

I think 3x3 WF and rubik's clock are the dumbest events ever. I would like to see someday skewb and 8x8 on competition.


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## qqwref (Aug 20, 2013)

antoineccantin said:


> I don't know if you'd consider me a "top feetsolver", but I have a hard time looking a head in feet, and it isn't rare for me not to have found my next F2L pair. I'm sure that is common for other "top feetsolvers" as there is often pauses of a second or so i between pairs.


Oh really? Guess I was wrong about that then, my bad.


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## Stefan (Aug 20, 2013)

antoineccantin said:


> All the more reason to keep feet!



Huh? No, you got that the wrong way. That's a reason why feet solving is *less* important than gay marriage, not more.


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## antoineccantin (Aug 20, 2013)

Every competitor should have the equal right to compete and be officially recognized in their favorite event, without hindering the ability of others to do the same (ex. no super long events).



qqwref said:


> a better event/round



There is no "better event". It's all a matter of opinion and point of view.


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## Stefan (Aug 20, 2013)

qqwref said:


> Footsolving, on the other hand, is simply an issue of what events we decide to make official in a competition.



It's about the right to do it officially, to get their solves officially recognized. Like marriage. Just because you avoided saying "rights" there, doesn't mean it doesn't have to do with equal rights.


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## AvGalen (Aug 20, 2013)

antoineccantin said:


> Every competitor should have the equal right to compete and be officially recognized in their favorite event, without hindering the ability of others to do the same (ex. no super long events).


Where is match the scramble? Where is Skewb? Where is relay? Where is the logic behind this "having the right to be recognized"?

(I am stepping away from the gay marriage comparison. It was interesting for a bit, but every analogy only goes so far)


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## qqwref (Aug 21, 2013)

antoineccantin said:


> Every competitor should have the equal right to compete and be officially recognized in their favorite event, without hindering the ability of others to do the same (ex. no super long events).


You're not seriously suggesting that, are you? Competitions have limited time, thus we must choose events by criteria other than "something that at least one person really likes". There is no more reason to include feetsolving just for you than there is to include qcube just for me. (Or Skewb for Ranzha, or cubing while juggling for Ravi, or 15 puzzle for stannic, or...)


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## Ranzha (Aug 21, 2013)

qqwref said:


> Or Skewb for Ranzha



=3

What disqualifies feet from being officially recognised?

Do people learn different algorithms for feet specifically, just as OH solvers do?
Does the majority of the cubing community overall specifically dislike having feet as an event?

Although feet is in my opinion an impressive skill, I feel like it doesn't contribute anything substantially original to speedcubing. Not to mention that some people are deterred from it due to fears of lacking sanitation or to preferring the more intuitive handling of the cube with the hands. If a significant number of members of the cubing community disapprove of feet's official status, it should be removed promptly.

This said, I have no real problem with feet as it is, but as an event it seems too out of place and, as Vincent Sheu put it, a "sideshow".


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## elrog (Aug 21, 2013)

I think the reason feet WR's are not dropping is simply because it is less popular. Sure the awkwardness may play a role, but its not the whole story. There are many factors involved in all kinds of cubing.

As for people saying we should have the 8x8 and 9x9 in competition, theres no point whatsoever. there are no new concepts added. I'll list out what they add to cubing from 4x4 up to 9x9.

4x4 - No fixed-centers or center edges, wing edges and centers added
5x5 - same concept as the 4x4 wing edges and corner centers, but with middle-edges fixed-centers and centers that are lined up in 1 layer with the fixed center
6x6 - 4x4 concepts, but allows for more ways to group pieces to solve the cube
7x7 - 5x5 concepts, but allows for more ways to group pieces to solve the cube
8x8 - 4x4 concepts, but not really any more ways to group pieces than the 6x6 that are not extremely similar to the 6x6
9x9 - 5x5 concepts, but not really any more ways to group pieces that the 7x7 that are not extremely similar to the 7x7


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## Riley (Aug 21, 2013)

I don't think feet should get removed.

Magics had much more legitimate reasons for being removed, such as not being a twisty puzzle and being hard to judge. It's hard to argue with that.

Feet, however, people say is:

Unsanitary. Then provide gloves for scramblers? A recent competition in Japan even covered their timers with plastic.

Disliked by most of the speedsolving community. What about those of us who do like feet? I enjoy practicing feet. If my hands hurt, feet is probably what I will practice. People with some type of hand pains may prefer solving with feet as well. If OH can stay, why can't feet? I get that it's more popular, but really, it's the same as solving with a 3x3 2H. Yet it can stay. Feet also is solving a 3x3, showing another dexterity of the human body. People ask "then why not add elbow solving, it's also solving a 3x3?" Well, feet is already an event, unlike elbow solving.

Gives speedsolving a bad name to the media and the public. I don't think it does. The media loves (from what I've seen) feet solvers. I've talked to many people about solving the Rubik's cube, and they are very impressed when I say I can solve it with my feet. It's impressive to people and thus gains popularity for speedcubing. 

Doesn't add any new material/won't contribute to the growth of methods. Like I said, solving OH is the same as solving 2H, except some people use algorithms that work for solving OH more easily. The same applies to feet. I personally use most (maybe all) of my OH LL algorithms for feet. And also, 6x6 and 7x7 aren't all that different from a 5x5. Most people just apply redux on 6x6/7x7 the same way they would on a 5x5. 

To summarize, feet does not have an as legitimate reason to be removed as magics did.


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## Tim Major (Aug 21, 2013)

Why not simply host a poll? I feel like if more people want it removed than want it kept, then it should be removed. If 4x4 had as much dislike as feet we could host a similar poll. Why are reasons needed?

Just have 3 options. Remove/keep/no opinion. Public poll.


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## Sa967St (Aug 21, 2013)

Tim Major said:


> Why not simply host a poll? I feel like if more people want it removed than want it kept, then it should be removed. If 4x4 had as much dislike as feet we could host a similar poll. Why are reasons needed?
> 
> Just have 3 options. Remove/keep/no opinion. Public poll.



I added a poll to this thread. There's no way that the results will solely determine whether the event stays or not, though.


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## Tim Major (Aug 21, 2013)

Sa967St said:


> I added a poll to this thread. There's no way that the results will solely determine whether the event stays or not, though.


Considering that speedsolving.com is only one forum in a big cubing community it would be bad to do this regardless.Still, depending on results, some arguments may weaken/strengthen and we can get a _small_ idea of what the community wants


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## tx789 (Aug 21, 2013)

It seems people want to remove feet because they don't like it. There are other arguments but they're just secondary. I personally don't care if it gets removed just as long as I get to complete in it once. But I think it shouldn't be removed.


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## AustinReed (Aug 21, 2013)

Tim Major said:


> Considering that speedsolving.com is only one forum in a big cubing community it would be bad to do this regardless.Still, depending on results, some arguments may weaken/strengthen and we can get a _small_ idea of what the community wants



Majority =/= Logical/Reasonable


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## Riley (Aug 21, 2013)

tx789 said:


> It seems people want to remove feet because they don't like it. There are other arguments but they're just secondary. I personally don't care if it gets removed just as long as I get to complete in it once. But I think it should be removed.



Why do you think it should be removed?


----------



## AustinReed (Aug 21, 2013)

tx789 said:


> It seems people want to remove feet because they don't like it...
> ...But I think it should be removed.



You're not helping the case.


----------



## Ranzha (Aug 21, 2013)

One of the needs for event addition has been noticeable community acceptance of the event in question. In the same way, popularity should very seriously be taken into account as it goes with removing events, so I don't see why "I don't like it" is completely invalid. Of course, dislike isn't as workable an argument as the sanitation issue or the static nature of the records as of late, but when a significant number of people express their dislike it becomes hard to keep events.


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## tx789 (Aug 21, 2013)

tx789 said:


> It seems people want to remove feet because they don't like it. There are other arguments but they're just secondary. I personally don't care if it gets removed just as long as I get to complete in it once. But I think it *shouldn't *be removed.




typed it in wrong.


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## Pedro (Aug 21, 2013)

Kirjava said:


> Of course it does, and there are reasons posted in this thread other than people not liking it.
> 
> I implore you to read threads before posting in future.



Please explain why it affects you?


I'll start a poll on the brazilian forum about this.


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## Coolster01 (Aug 21, 2013)

Pedro said:


> I'll start a poll on the brazilian forum about this.


 
Wait until they hear about this, they'll freak out.

Thanks for doing that!


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## pijok (Aug 21, 2013)

- Feet isn't adding something really new to 3x3x3/3x3x3 Oh
- A lot of people don't like feet

=> we should replace it with other events, more people like.

IMO we should remove feet to make room for Team-Bld, Skewb, ...


----------



## kinch2002 (Aug 21, 2013)

Let's compare this to something else with a lot of events - track and field. There is a comparable number of events to cubing. Most people don't like some of the events. They don't compete in them. They respect the fact that others do the event and don't petition for then to be removed. Decathletes even hate some of the events they are 'forced' to compete in. They don't complain.
More people would enjoy the e.g. 300m more than the hammer. Doesn't mean it should replace hammer.

Sure, there are people who don't like feet. There are people who do like feet. Let those people compete because I don't believe it damages them (unless they choose to let it for the sake of wanting to be angry at others - Yes this is a general problem across the whole internet) or cubing as a whole.

Btw, what evidence does anyone have that e.g. skewb is more popular than feet.


----------



## AvGalen (Aug 21, 2013)

kinch2002 said:


> Btw, what evidence does anyone have that e.g. skewb is more popular than feet.



polls in the relevant threads and asking around at competitions


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## Kirjava (Aug 21, 2013)

Pedro said:


> Please explain why it affects you?



How does feetsolving affect me. Hm.

I do not believe the media attention lauded as a good thing that feet brings is positive. It sets the focus on how 'weird' we are and leaves cubing as some fringe group of dorks.

Delegates have the power to force me to judge feet and I can be removed from the competition for not doing so. (1e2)

It irks me that something that started as a joke has gotten so out of hand. I wouldn't mind so much if the event actually had any kind of merit.


----------



## Pedro (Aug 21, 2013)

Kirjava said:


> How does feetsolving affect me. Hm.
> 
> I do not believe the media attention lauded as a good thing that feet brings is positive. It sets the focus on how 'weird' we are and leaves cubing as some fringe group of dorks.
> 
> ...



So it has no kind of merit whatsoever? Same could be said about OH.

Thanks for the reply. It's much better when people actually say stuff than make vague statements about the subject.

I voted for removing feet, but as I said before, and Philip too, we are already considered weird because of cubing. I see feet cubing as another way to draw media attention, because it's so crazy and different.

Oh, well, tired of discussing.

As for the brazilian poll, it looks like this after 1,5 hours: (as I thought it would)

Remove-------0
Don't remove--5
Don't care-----1


----------



## Kirjava (Aug 21, 2013)

Pedro said:


> Thanks for the reply. It's much better when people actually say stuff than make vague statements about the subject.



Reasons why it affected me were already stated in the thread. You just making me repeat myself. Like the comment you replied to, I wish you would read the thread before posting.



Pedro said:


> As for the brazilian poll, it looks like this after 1,5 hours: (as I thought it would)



OMG YOUR SAMPLE SIZE IS HUGE


----------



## AustinReed (Aug 21, 2013)

Kirjava said:


> I do not believe the media attention lauded as a good thing that feet brings is positive. It sets the focus on how 'weird' we are and leaves cubing as some fringe group of dorks.



Sorry to break it to you, but that's how people have always viewed us. That isn't something that feet has brought onto us.


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## Kirjava (Aug 21, 2013)

AustinReed said:


> Sorry to break it to you, but that's how people have always viewed us. That isn't something that feet has brought onto us.



Feet is helping it stagnate.


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## AvGalen (Aug 21, 2013)

Kirjava said:


> Feet is helping it stagnate.


Even the organizers of the just-finished WC made it perfectly clear that they didn't want to have Feet by not rewarding it with any pricemoney (entryfee > pricemoney WTF). Some sponsors/cubers alleviated that, but it gave a clear signal


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## cubizh (Aug 21, 2013)

Kirjava said:


> I do not believe the media attention lauded as a good thing that feet brings is positive. It sets the focus on how 'weird' we are


I am unsure we aren't already considered "weird" dispite feet, just speedsolving puzzles alone.


Kirjava said:


> and leaves cubing as some fringe group of dorks.


What do you think "we" are, and what do you think we should be in regards to the media?

On a side note, I don't think feet by itself is a detriment to any sport alone. Statistically, the most popular sport in the world uses feet.


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## Kirjava (Aug 21, 2013)

cubizh said:


> What do you think "we" are, and what do you think we should be in regards to the media?



We're just competitors.


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## AvGalen (Aug 21, 2013)

cubizh said:


> I am unsure we aren't already considered "weird" dispite feet, just speedsolving puzzles alone.
> 
> What do you think "we" are, and what do you think we should be in regards to the media?
> 
> On a side note, I don't think feet by itself is a detriment to any sport alone. Statistically, the most popular sport in the world uses feet.


No, it uses shoes and a ball: http://www.clicktop10.com/2013/03/top-10-most-popular-sports-in-the-world/


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## Yellowsnow98 (Aug 21, 2013)

I honestly couldn't care less if feet stays or not.


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## Pedro (Aug 21, 2013)

Kirjava said:


> Reasons why it affected me were already stated in the thread. You just making me repeat myself. Like the comment you replied to, I wish you would read the thread before posting.



I read the thread before posting. I've been following it from the beginning, and honestly I don't remeber reading you saying this before. Could be my fault, though.



> OMG YOUR SAMPLE SIZE IS HUGE



Erm...sorry? I didn't mean that it was a valid opinion yet, just responding to the guy who thanked me for making the poll.

I just don't understand why some people have to be SO smart all the time...


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## BaMiao (Aug 21, 2013)

Kirjava said:


> How does feetsolving affect me. Hm.
> 
> I do not believe the media attention lauded as a good thing that feet brings is positive. It sets the focus on how 'weird' we are and leaves cubing as some fringe group of dorks.
> 
> ...



Let me add: It diverts competition resources (time, space, staff) away from other events at competitions. This is why the "it doesn't affect you" argument is invalid. Without feet, those resources could be spent on anything from doing other events (that more people like), to adding rounds for other events, expanding rounds, or raising cutoffs. Having feet at a competition _does_ affect me, because it changes the chances that I have of doing official solves in the events that I like.

This is also the reason we're allowed to say that we simply don't like feet. We should have a say in what events are made or kept official because competition resources should be spent in a way that benefits the most.

This isn't to say we should necessarily employ "majority rule". Also, I'm aware that speedsolving only represents a minority of the community.


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## Mike Hughey (Aug 21, 2013)

The poll worries me - I wonder how 5x5x5 BLD would do in a poll. Or even 4x4x4 BLD.

I think that may be part of why I have an affinity for feet as an event - my favorite events have been attacked too, and I sympathize with how people who like feet as an event feel. There is certainly a significant percentage of cubers who would like big BLD events removed as official events, although it does seem that lately that percentage has been decreasing.


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## BaMiao (Aug 21, 2013)

Mike Hughey said:


> The poll worries me - I wonder how 5x5x5 BLD would do in a poll. Or even 4x4x4 BLD.
> 
> I think that may be part of why I have an affinity for feet as an event - my favorite events have been attacked too, and I sympathize with how people who like feet as an event feel. There is certainly a significant percentage of cubers who would like big BLD events removed as official events, although it does seem that lately that percentage has been decreasing.



But 4 and 5 BLD are _actually impressive!_ You can't learn to do them the weekend before a competition. I have no aspirations of competing in either event anytime soon, and yet I love the fact that they are official events simply because it encourages people to push the limits of human capabilities. Feet solving is not a limit I'm interested in.

And wouldn't it be nice if reporters actually wrote stories about 5BLD or MBLD? _That_ story is one that the community could actually be proud of.


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## Sajwo (Aug 21, 2013)

Mike Hughey said:


> The poll worries me - I wonder how 5x5x5 BLD would do in a poll. Or even 4x4x4 BLD.
> 
> I think that may be part of why I have an affinity for feet as an event - my favorite events have been attacked too, and I sympathize with how people who like feet as an event feel. There is certainly a significant percentage of cubers who would like big BLD events removed as official events, although it does seem that lately that percentage has been decreasing.



I dont' think that 4BLD or 5BLD affect somebody. Mostly mbld, 4bld and 5bld are in another room so everybody can participate in them whenever they want to. And also these events are cool an impressive. 3x3 WF is disgusting.


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## cubizh (Aug 22, 2013)

Sajwo said:


> I dont' think that 4BLD or 5BLD affect somebody. Mostly mbld, 4bld and 5bld are in another room so everybody can participate in them whenever they want to. And also these events are cool an impressive. 3x3 WF is disgusting.



I'm sure the logistics requiring an extra room with timers reserved just for 3/4/5BLD/MultiBLD are not important for organizers to consider, when comparing to what's necessary for feet. 

Also, it's important to note that 


Kirjava said:


> Delegates have the power to force me to judge *(edit: 4BLD/5BLD/Multi)* and I can be removed from the competition for not doing so. (1e2)


but having to hold a piece of cardboard in front of someone's face for several minutes (specially if you think 4/5BLD) in such a way it blocks their vision over the cube is alright even if you don't like the event, comparing to having to judge feet. You have to kneel or at least bend over and pick/place a cube someone touched with their feet. It must also be great when (in 5BLD) after you have to hold the cardboard for minutes on end, 64.48% (recent stats) of the times, the outcome is a DNF and you basically just wasted your time.

Please don't get me wrong. I like BLD events and I don't think they are bad to judge or execute or that they should go at all. 

I used sarcasm here to make a point that *all events* have good and bad things if one looks closely enough, but the arguments used to keep or remove and event must be such that they are valid for all events, so the decision of removal is not a biased one. Magics and multiblind old style were removed because there were logical and objective reasons to remove it that did not exist in any other event. I'm sure their removal wasn't because the puzzle was flat, or was a kids-event or a time-filler.

I haven't voted yet in the poll, I am waiting to see how the discussion unfolds but so far I haven't found any definitive objective arguments for feet removal, specially from people that organize competitions or delegates, other than natural cultural differences between people with different views, from different parts of the world, with a different set of values.


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## Kirjava (Aug 22, 2013)

I'd say that that is simply a case for removal of those events too, but not reason alone.


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## AustinReed (Aug 22, 2013)

Sajwo said:


> 3x3 WF is disgusting.



It's only disgusting if you make it disgusting.


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## PhillipEspinoza (Aug 22, 2013)

Voting to remove an event that you don't compete in (as I'm assuming most people who voted "No" don't compete in Feet) is a ridiculous way to decide whether or not to keep that event, simply because like I said before, it does not *A*ffect you, or if it does then it doesn't nearly in the same way as someone who does compete in it. Like asking me if I think someone should compete in BLD at a given competition. Of course I'm gonna say no because I don't really compete in it and it takes time away from events I really care about (like OH or 2H). This is why I believe a decision like removing Feet should be made with impartiality and little regard to a popular opinion poll because duh, Feet is unpopular, and using a poll to prove your point is just using evidence that will only confirm your bias. Like, "God exists, you know why? Let's take a poll on it". To me this is a matter of justice (meaning there is an absolute truth), and not popularity, as many of us are privileged with the ability to solve with our hands and forget that we would essentially be excluding (or at least discouraging) competitors with no hands from having a fair chance at being competitive with the Rubik's Cube. And it's easy for us to laugh at something like that but if it even increases our reach to one serious (no hands) competitor then I think we are better off for keeping Feet than we would be trying to cater to the acceptance of people who don't even really accept us or take the sport seriously in the first place (the general population).


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## Kirjava (Aug 22, 2013)

PhillipEspinoza said:


> Voting to remove an event that you don't compete in (as I'm assuming most people who voted "No" don't compete in Feet) is a ridiculous way to decide whether or not to keep that event, simply because like I said before, it does not *A*ffect you,



You already said this once, and we already disagreed with you and gave reasons. Stop reiterating and post something constructive.


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## immortalchaos29 (Aug 22, 2013)

PhillipEspinoza said:


> Voting to remove an event that you don't compete in (as I'm assuming most people who voted "No" don't compete in Feet) is a ridiculous way to decide whether or not to keep that event, simply because like I said before, it does not *A*ffect you, or if it does then it doesn't nearly in the same way as someone who does compete in it. Like asking me if I think someone should compete in BLD at a given competition. Of course I'm gonna say no because I don't really compete in it and it takes time away from events I really care about (like OH or 2H). This is why I believe a decision like removing Feet should be made with impartiality and little regard to a popular opinion poll because duh, Feet is unpopular, and using a poll to prove your point is just using evidence that will only confirm your bias. Like, "God exists, you know why? Let's take a poll on it". To me this is a matter of justice (meaning there is an absolute truth), and not popularity, as many of us are privileged with the ability to solve with our hands and forget that we would essentially be excluding (or at least discouraging) competitors with no hands from having a fair chance at being competitive with the Rubik's Cube. And it's easy for us to laugh at something like that but if it even increases our reach to one serious (no hands) competitor then I think we are better off for keeping Feet than we would be trying to cater to the acceptance of people who don't even really accept us or take the sport seriously in the first place (the general population).



You aren't even reading the replies, are you?


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## PhillipEspinoza (Aug 22, 2013)

[RELEVANT TANGENT] I say we take a vote on whether or not there should be a Women's Rubik's Cube World Record and poll the general cubing population (which happens to be male dominated) and make a decision based on that. I wonder which direction the vote would go?


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## AustinReed (Aug 22, 2013)

immortalchaos29 said:


> You aren't even reading the replies, are you?



Even if he isn't, I don't blame him. This thread is disgusting.


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## Kirjava (Aug 22, 2013)

PhillipEspinoza said:


> [RELEVANT TANGENT] I say we take a vote on whether or not there should be a Women's Rubik's Cube World Record and poll the general cubing population (which happens to be male dominated) and make a decision based on that. I wonder which direction the vote would go?



Dude don't get so hung up on the poll. It's just a poll - it doesn't mean anything.


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## AustinReed (Aug 22, 2013)

Kirjava said:


> Dude don't get so hung up on the poll. It's just a poll - it doesn't mean anything.



Well, according to the people here, it does. 



Tim Major said:


> Still, depending on results, some arguments may weaken/strengthen and we can get a _small_ idea of what the community wants





Ranzha V. Emodrach said:


> In the same way, popularity should very seriously be taken into account as it goes with removing events,


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## BaMiao (Aug 22, 2013)

AustinReed said:


> Well, according to the people here, it does.



This place is such a small sample of the cubing community, so there is no way that poll can affect any decision that much. Also, countries where feet solving is more popular tend to be non-English speaking, and are bound to be underrepresented.

And besides, did the WCA even _ask_ for this thread? I was under no impression that there were any discussions to actually remove the event (someone more knowledgable correct me if I'm wrong).

As much as I dislike feet, I doubt it has any real chance of being removed.


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## immortalchaos29 (Aug 22, 2013)

AustinReed said:


> This thread is disgusting.



Well on this, we are agreed.


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## qqwref (Aug 22, 2013)

I do think the WCA ought to consider the statistical opinion of the community when making this decision. But to be honest, a strong positive response will have more of an effect on adding an event than a strong negative response will on removing one. If we remove feet it should be because of the many legitimate and strong reasons why it does not belong on the list of official events.


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## Tim Major (Aug 22, 2013)

AustinReed said:


> Well, according to the people here, it does.


Thanks for cutting off the part where I said " no decision should be made based on the poll".Strengthening your argument by cutting out different parts of my post? ok


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## AvGalen (Aug 22, 2013)

PhillipEspinoza said:


> ... Like, "God exists, you know why? Let's take a poll on it". ...


So you have now compared the right to do feetsolving with the right to gay marriage
and the existence of God with the popularity of feetsolving.
I can already predict what is next: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law


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