# Future WCA events



## Yerpydoodle (Jan 8, 2021)

What do you think should be a Wca event?


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## DNF_Cuber (Jan 8, 2021)

FTO or nothing


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## Deleted member 55877 (Jan 8, 2021)

Kilominx would be awesome


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## Lilas ma (Jan 8, 2021)

It would be nice if they added a lvy cube and a rex cube


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## Filipe Teixeira (Jan 8, 2021)

solving 5x5 blindfolded while riding a bmx backwards


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## Scollier (Jan 8, 2021)

Filipe Teixeira said:


> solving 5x5 blindfolded while riding a bmx backwards



That might bring up some lawsuits


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## tx789 (Jan 8, 2021)

Fto is the best suggestion by far nothing else comes close.


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## Deleted member 55877 (Jan 8, 2021)

tx789 said:


> Fto is the best suggestion by far nothing else comes close.


Except kilominx, I think it comes pretty close


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## OreKehStrah (Jan 8, 2021)

FTO and Curvy Copter are the best candidates because they add non-trivial, unique solving experiences.
This thread was completely unnecessary though. Please don’t make new redundant threads in the future!


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## DNF_Cuber (Jan 8, 2021)

Alex Davison said:


> Except kilominx, I think it comes pretty close


it is just a size variant of mega. FTO is totally unique.


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## carcass (Jan 9, 2021)

curvy copter, redi cube, and fto


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## the dnf master (Jan 9, 2021)

fanxin banana


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## BenChristman1 (Jan 9, 2021)

the dnf master said:


> fanxin banana


2x2x3, in other words. I agree with FTO (even though I don’t have one or know how to solve it), and I think that extending the -minx line with at least one of Master Pyraminx, Kilominx, and/or Master Kilominx would be awesome.


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## Batsy_who_laughs (Jan 9, 2021)

4x4 FMC


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## SH03L4C3 (Jan 9, 2021)

master pyra, kilominx, and I dare say the hardest event: 1x1


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## Silky (Jan 9, 2021)

DNF_Cuber said:


> it is just a size variant of mega. FTO is totally unique.


nxn events sweating..


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## ProStar (Jan 9, 2021)

FTO & Kilo should be added imo


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## Silky (Jan 9, 2021)

ProStar said:


> FTO & Kilo should be added imo


I think MasterPyra is also another contender


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## DNF_Cuber (Jan 9, 2021)

Silky said:


> nxn events sweating..


true, I think 7x7 should be removed.


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## Cubing Forever (Jan 9, 2021)

How about 15 puzzle, Master Pyraminx and FTO?


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## BenChristman1 (Jan 9, 2021)

Cubing Forever said:


> How about 15 puzzle, Master Pyraminx and FTO?


I agree with the last 2, but 15 puzzle is like clock in that if we add it now, we will regret it in 3-5 years, because it’s so different from everything else in the WCA (basically the same situation as clock).


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## gruuby (Jan 9, 2021)

Hear me out: Clock with feet.


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## Cubing Forever (Jan 9, 2021)

Bring back Feet. It's so much fun.


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## crazycuber36 (Jan 9, 2021)

Cubing Forever said:


> Bring back Feet. It's so much fun.


Wait they removed feet?


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## BenChristman1 (Jan 9, 2021)

crazycuber36 said:


> Wait they removed feet?


Yeah...it got removed at the end of 2019.


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## tx789 (Jan 9, 2021)

Alex Davison said:


> Except kilominx, I think it comes pretty close


no. kilominx is just 2x2 megaminx


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## Paul.Mz (Jan 9, 2021)

I think they should bring mirror blocks
And cheese puzzle


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## seungju choi (Jan 9, 2021)

maybe gear...?
I hope to add MegaBLD


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## Silky (Jan 9, 2021)

tx789 said:


> no. kilominx is just 2x2 megaminx


So what you're saying is we should remove 2x2 ?


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## cuberbutnotacuber (Jan 9, 2021)

Probably Kilominx, Curvy Copter and the Redi Cube.


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## tx789 (Jan 9, 2021)

Silky said:


> So what you're saying is we should remove 2x2 ?


No Kilominx is just a bad idea for an event. It is going to be a fast event that is a bit scramble dependent and isn't unique. The top Kilominx solvers will be megaminx solvers. 

Fto is far more unique and won't give people who specialise in a event a huge advantage over other people.


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## CrispyCubing (Jan 10, 2021)

tx789 said:


> It is going to be a fast event that is a bit scramble dependent and isn't unique.


Is 3x3 to fast of an event? Because I doubt Kilominx times will get faster than 6 seconds on avg. Could be wrong though... This is one of the fastest averages I've seen (13.39 Ao5).


tx789 said:


> The top Kilominx solvers will be megaminx solvers.


idk if I even want to mention 4x4-7x7, I've seen this argument many times.


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## xyzzy (Jan 10, 2021)

tx789 said:


> No Kilominx is just a bad idea for an event. It is going to be a fast event that is a bit scramble dependent and isn't unique.


Citation needed.

(edit) For context, I wrote this last year:


xyzzy said:


> Kilominx isn't nearly as luck-heavy as those other events. How frequently do you see stuff like a one-move layer? That's right, the answer is _basically never_, even if you're full CN. (Back-of-the-envelope calculation says it's around 1/31000, which is less than the probability of getting a 4-move 222 scramble (1/1989), a 7-move skewb scramble (1/9.8), a 6-move pyra scramble (1/414), a ≤9-move Redi scramble (1/4365), or a one-move cross on 3×3×3 (1/1987), and also pretty close to a full cross skip on 3×3×3 (~1/32000).)
> 
> It's analogous to a 2×2×2 in the sense that it has only corners. It is absolutely _not_ analogous in the sense that it has a small state space, which it doesn't: the state space is much smaller than a megaminx's, sure, but still a few orders of magnitude larger than a 3×3×3's.


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## BenChristman1 (Jan 10, 2021)

CrispyCubing said:


> idk if I even want to mention 4x4-7x7, I've seen this argument many times.


I was going to mention this as well. As I said in an earlier post, I actually think that extending the minxes as well as possibly OH and FMC would be good for the WCA. There is not as much motivation for people to specialize in anything other than NxNs, because if you’re good at one event, you won’t necessarily be good at another (assuming they’re not both NxNs), but we could make it so that somebody specializes in the minxes, OH, or FMC by extending to more puzzles that are similar to others that we already have.


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## abunickabhi (Jan 10, 2021)

I think the events that we have on the SS comps, which are not there in the WCA are good candidates.

So events like redi cube, curvy copter, FTO, speedFMC, etc can be added to the WCA soon if the group of people doing these events seriously get larger.

Personally, I like the event Master Pyraminx. Its much better than pyraminx, and involves some interesting things that we can do during the solve.


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## Silky (Jan 10, 2021)

tx789 said:


> No Kilominx is just a bad idea for an event. It is going to be a fast event that is a bit scramble dependent and isn't unique. The top Kilominx solvers will be megaminx solvers.
> 
> Fto is far more unique and won't give people who specialise in a event a huge advantage over other people.


I agree that FTO'a uniqueness makes it an even better event but saying that Kilominx isn't ' unique ' enough isn't really relevant. I've talked about this before somewhere else but 12 of the 17 events are all nxn/nxn variant events and nobody has a problem with that..

Kilominx being a fast event is actually in favor of the event, logistically. This (speed ) also makes the event far more accessible. Remember, 2x2 and Pyraminx are the second and third most popular events.

There are tons of events that are scramble dependent.. 2x2 3x3 4x4 Squan Pyra Skewb 3BLD.. It's far away from trivial so who cares ? Luck will always be a factor in speedsolving, that's one of the things that make it interesting.

Lastly about megaminx solvers being better.. Again going back to nxn events nobody complains the advantage nxn solvers got on 6x6 and 7x7 and literally all of the other events. Again I think that accessibility is more important here than who has an *initial* advantage. Accessibility leads to popularity and competition, which ultimately is the goal.


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## Silky (Jan 10, 2021)

CrispyCubing said:


> Is 3x3 to fast of an event? Because I doubt Kilominx times will get faster than 6 seconds on avg. Could be wrong though... This is one of the fastest averages I've seen (13.39 Ao5).
> 
> idk if I even want to mention 4x4-7x7, I've seen this argument many times.


I mean anything that isn't 3x3 isn't really an event. No other event is interesting or takes any skill whatsoever. Literally people that do any other event are just hipsters trying to look cool to compensate for the fact that they're bad at 3x3. Smh


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## tx789 (Jan 10, 2021)

We have enough short events. Slightly less accessable events are fine and adding more is a good thing. 2x,2 pyra and skewb are enough for super short events.


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## VIBE_ZT (Jan 10, 2021)

*Face-Turning Octahedron, Master Pyraminx, Curvy Copter, and Team Blindfolded.*

The FTO and M. Pyraminx I feel hit that sweet spot between a trivial and tedious solving experience. The records as of late are also not ridiculously fast/impossible either, which makes for an opportunity for the solving and progression of records to develop over time.

Curvy Copter because it brings multiple new things to the WCA's event list (edge turning, true jumbling, true shapeshifting). The solves, also, are not crazy long. You simply just... Have to learn how to solve it properly. Just like how there are some that solve a 7x7 in 10+ minutes and are subject to the cutoff time of the competition in which they are competing, so too could and would the Curvy Copter have longer average solving and cutoff times.

Team Blindfolded because... well... as has been discussed many times before on this forum, it adds a collaborative aspect to speedcubing.
All 17 WCA events are solo events. You must do it all yourself. To do otherwise would be considered cheating. I, and many others, feel that a team event would add so much to the WCA, and add a whole new dimension to the speedcubing and competition experience.


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## Sub1Hour (Jan 10, 2021)

FTO is pretty obvious, it's the most unique popular non-wca event, and at this point, all it would take for it to be added is a company making a magnetic FTO. One of my favorites, Redi Cube, is also up there. I think it's the second most likely to get added, with FTO as first. Redi Cube is a good fit since it's quite intuitive, and aside from clock and pyra we don't have many events that only require 0-3 algs to get good times (not counting blind).


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## xyzzy (Jan 10, 2021)

Silky said:


> 12 of the 17 events are all nxn/nxn variant events and nobody has a problem with that.
> […]
> nobody complains the advantage nxn solvers got on 6x6 and 7x7


People _do_ complain, though. Just about every time people bring up removing events, 6 and 7 are suggested as events that should've been removed (instead of Feet).


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## cuberbutnotacuber (Jan 10, 2021)

I also think that there should be more OH events. Like 2x2 OH or maybe 5x5 OH.


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## Kit Clement (Jan 10, 2021)

Silky said:


> So what you're saying is we should remove 2x2 ?



I'd be 100% behind that idea. At the very least let's get rid of single rankings/records.


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## RoundUpCubing (Jan 10, 2021)

cuberbutnotacuber said:


> I also think that there should be more OH events. Like 2x2 OH or maybe 5x5 OH.


i like this idea. OH has never been my speciality, but is amazingly fun to do randomly while doing other stuff. 2x2 oh sounds kinda dumb, but 4x4 and 5x5 oh seems like it could be really fun and entertaining. pll parity tho


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## DNF_Cuber (Jan 10, 2021)

Silky said:


> I mean anything that isn't 3x3 isn't really an event. No other event is interesting or takes any skill whatsoever. Literally people that do any other event are just hipsters trying to look cool to compensate for the fact that they're bad at 3x3. Smh


What? Every event takes skill, and interesting is totally subjective.


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## minxer293 (Jan 10, 2021)

cuberbutnotacuber said:


> I also think that there should be more OH events. Like 2x2 OH or maybe 5x5 OH.


We do not need any more OH cubes, that adds nothing new, no new top solvers, no new methods, absolutely nothing. Something like Curvy Copter or FTO would be a much better contender as they actually add something to the WCA.


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## Silky (Jan 10, 2021)

DNF_Cuber said:


> What? Every event takes skill, and interesting is totally subjective.


This was sarcasm. Totally joking mate.


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## DNF_Cuber (Jan 10, 2021)

Silky said:


> This was sarcasm. Totally joking mate.


ok, just making sure.


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## Sub1Hour (Jan 11, 2021)

cuberbutnotacuber said:


> I also think that there should be more OH events. Like 2x2 OH or maybe 5x5 OH.


I disagree because a spinoff like OH doesn't actually affect the solve outside of making turns harder. Unlike blind or fmc, the one handed solution would be indistinguishable from a regular solution unless you use some extremely odd solution for OH. Stuff like OH and Feet are unique if you only do it for 3x3, but doing it for other events seems unnecessary since both the nxn and the OH aspect are better shown in the NXN and in 3x3 OH.
Side note, it would also kill most people's hands for the day to do a 4x4 and 5x5 Ao5 during a comp, especially if you warm up with a lot of solves beforehand.


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## RoundUpCubing (Jan 11, 2021)

Sub1Hour said:


> I disagree because a spinoff like OH doesn't actually affect the solve outside of making turns harder. Unlike blind or fmc, the one handed solution would be indistinguishable from a regular solution unless you use some extremely odd solution for OH. Stuff like OH and Feet are unique if you only do it for 3x3, but doing it for other events seems unnecessary since both the nxn and the OH aspect are better shown in the NXN and in 3x3 OH.
> Side note, it would also kill most people's hands for the day to do a 4x4 and 5x5 Ao5 during a comp, especially if you warm up with a lot of solves beforehand.


killing hands is something to think about, huh. could get to a point where "hand neutrality" could play a role, and you would just have to sacrifice one event for the other.


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## anonymouswhocubes (Jan 11, 2021)

I personally think FTO and Master Pyraminx and maybe Axis Cube?


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## RoundUpCubing (Jan 11, 2021)

anonymouswhocubes said:


> I personally think FTO and Master Pyraminx and maybe Axis Cube?


isnt axis cube a 3x3 shape mod? otherwise i do agree with master pyra, never tried fto but it looks very unique but hard to fingertrick so idk


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## abunickabhi (Jan 11, 2021)

RoundUpCubing said:


> isnt axis cube a 3x3 shape mod? otherwise i do agree with master pyra, never tried fto but it looks very unique but hard to fingertrick so idk


Yes axis cube is just a shape mod, so center safe 3x3 solving is good enough for this puzzle.

Master Pyraminx is cool.

FTO fingertricks are unique, they will become more like skewb fingertricks one we have good FTO hardware.


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## RoundUpCubing (Jan 11, 2021)

abunickabhi said:


> FTO fingertricks are unique, they will become more like skewb fingertricks one we have good FTO hardware.


help i hate skewb fingertricks lol
still cant help myself from solving it all the time, i just cant do sledgehammers lol


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## abunickabhi (Jan 11, 2021)

RoundUpCubing said:


> help i hate skewb fingertricks lol
> still cant help myself from solving it all the time, i just cant do sledgehammers lol


Yeah skewb fingertricks are quite unique. It is more of thumbtricks rather than fingertricks, that is used in doing sledges on the skewb.

I hope you do know the polish sledge right?


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## RoundUpCubing (Jan 11, 2021)

abunickabhi said:


> Yeah skewb fingertricks are quite unique. It is more of thumbtricks rather than fingertricks, that is used in doing sledges on the skewb.
> 
> I hope you do know the polish sledge right?


i tried but i couldnt get it to work haha, i literally just put it down on my mat and turn the corners like that haha


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## abunickabhi (Jan 11, 2021)

RoundUpCubing said:


> i tried but i couldnt get it to work haha, i literally just put it down on my mat and turn the corners like that haha


I guess it requires more drilling then, to perfect the action, D U' M2 U' M' F' E2 F U2 M' D' S2.


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## PapaSmurf (Jan 11, 2021)

What I have discovered reading this thread:
FTO should be added and almost everyone thinks so. I agree completely. It would nicely fill the gap left by feet, as it is a similar speed but slightly faster, meaning it fits nicely. It also has a random state scrambler (thanks xyzzy!) which is a pretty big thing.
Other possible events include kilominx, master pyraminx, curvy copter and 15 puzzle. Master pyraminx and kilominx both fit nicely into the category of 'same puzzle as x, just a different order' (master pyra being a 4x4 pyra and kilo being a 2x2 mega). Out of both of these, kilominx has gained the most traction and has been held as an unofficial event at some comps, although the hype had definitely died down quite a while before covid. They would both be great puzzles to add, but not at the moment when FTO is obviously a better choice and not until another event has been removed (I wouldn't be sad to see 7x7 go for example, as we have 6x6 and 5x5 which both have very similar solving elements to 7x7). Curvy copter is a very unique puzzle and I think it would be pretty cool to have it as an event, but again, there are problems (which have been discussed on the thread) and doesn't have the community like FTO does at the moment. It may grow, but not yet. 15 puzzle, while I love it as a puzzle, is too small to not become like 2x2 or skewb (or pyra) and unfortunately won't fit the criteria.

TL;DR: FTO should be added.


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## Filipe Teixeira (Jan 11, 2021)

PapaSmurf said:


> FTO ADD
> 
> TL;DR: What I have discovered reading this thread:
> FTO should be added and almost everyone thinks so. I agree completely. It would nicely fill the gap left by feet, as it is a similar speed but slightly faster, meaning it fits nicely. It also has a random state scrambler (thanks xyzzy!) which is a pretty big thing.
> ...



thanks dad


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## MJS Cubing (Jan 11, 2021)

cuberbutnotacuber said:


> I also think that there should be more OH events. Like 2x2 OH or maybe 5x5 OH.


I would say that OH events would be the least likely to bed added. 5x5 OH would be ridiculous and unpractical, and not enough people like 2x2 to make variations of it.


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## SH03L4C3 (Jan 11, 2021)

Master pyra has to be included
If we had to remove something I would say 6x6


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## RoundUpCubing (Jan 11, 2021)

i dont think there is any need for any puzzles to go, i really dont understand the big deal with having 7x7 as an event, it is in my opinion the largest nxn that is not the exact same as all the others
removing 6x6 would make no sense without removing 7x7
15 puzzle is not a twisty puzzle afaik, and i really dont see a need for it, never tried it but i really dont think it solves like a twisty puzzle would, so im gonna say no to that
i think FTO would be really cool, but the main thing holding it back is hardware, iirc theres only one mass produced (correct me if im wrong). this is the lanlan one, and lanlan isnt the biggest company, so supply vs demand would be out the roof. if there were more ftos then id say hell yeah


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## Kit Clement (Jan 11, 2021)

The relative quality of hardware will never be an issue for something being an event. The best Skewb in early 2014 was a LanLan too. There are other FTO options as well (Diansheng and Maru, at least). If it becomes official, the hardware will follow. While it's gaining popularity, FTO really just needs more people to start solving the puzzle and join the community. Organic interest is a puzzle is what will lead to it becoming official. Better hardware would definitely support that, but it's not a requirement to get it added.


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## BenChristman1 (Jan 11, 2021)

Kit Clement said:


> The relative quality of hardware will never be an issue for something being an event. The best Skewb in early 2014 was a LanLan too. There are other FTO options as well (Diansheng and Maru, at least). If it becomes official, the hardware will follow. While it's gaining popularity, FTO really just needs more people to start solving the puzzle and join the community. Organic interest is a puzzle is what will lead to it becoming official. Better hardware would definitely support that, but it's not a requirement to get it added.


I’m not sure if that’s necessarily true. I know this is the case for only one event, but clock hardware was terrible up until a few months ago. I’m just not sure if manufacturers will want to go through the work to come up with a design for a completely new puzzle.


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## Silky (Jan 11, 2021)

BenChristman1 said:


> I’m not sure if that’s necessarily true. I know this is the case for only one event, but clock hardware was terrible up until a few months ago. I’m just not sure if manufacturers will want to go through the work to come up with a design for a completely new puzzle.


Clock is a bit different since there hasn't been a ton of incentive to innovate. Since it was an original WCA event it'll never have the momentum that newer events like FTO will.


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## RoundUpCubing (Jan 11, 2021)

BenChristman1 said:


> I’m not sure if that’s necessarily true. I know this is the case for only one event, but clock hardware was terrible up until a few months ago. I’m just not sure if manufacturers will want to go through the work to come up with a design for a completely new puzzle.



If fto would get added, a lot of people would want to instantly hop on the boat for easy wrs/crs/nrs, so everyone would want to buy a good one, which means that for the first year or so demand would likely be very high. At the same time, the cubing community is much bigger than it was in 2014 when skewb got added, so thats even more demand. Free money.


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## Heath_Flick05 (Jan 12, 2021)

Master Pyraminx, Redi Cube, and FTO.
Also remove 6x6, 7x7, and 5BLD


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## BenChristman1 (Jan 12, 2021)

To all the people saying we should remove events:

Why? I would like to know why you want events like 2x2, 7x7 and Clock removed. Remember the backlash that the WCA got after Feet got removed? It’s because people put time into practicing these events, but now you just think it’s a good idea to strip away their records and other achievements? So why would you think it’s good to essentially throw all their hard work down the drain? I personally love 2x2 and Clock, and there are plenty other people who do too, so believe it or not, people actually do like these events. Just because you may not like an event doesn’t mean that everybody hates it. I hate skewb. I know that @u Cube loves it, but is it fair for me to say that we should get rid of it because it sucks, but he has put a crazy amount of time and effort into the event? No. Just no.

On the topic of adding events (which is what this thread is supposed to be about, may I add), it looks like pretty much everybody thinks that FTO would be a good thing to add, and possibly different order minx puzzles. I think that it would be awesome to extend the minx lines so that people can say that they specialize in the (mega/pyra)minx-like puzzles, just like people can say that they specialize in NxNs.


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## DNF_Cuber (Jan 12, 2021)

BenChristman1 said:


> To all the people saying we should remove events:
> 
> Why? I would like to know why you want events like 2x2, 7x7 and Clock removed. Remember the backlash that the WCA got after Feet got removed? It’s because people put time into practicing these events, but now you just think it’s a good idea to strip away their records and other achievements? So why would you think it’s good to essentially throw all their hard work down the drain? I personally love 2x2 and Clock, and there are plenty other people who do too, so believe it or not, people actually do like these events. Just because you may not like an event doesn’t mean that everybody hates it. I hate skewb. I know that @u Cube loves it, but is it fair for me to say that we should get rid of it because it sucks, but he has put a crazy amount of time and effort into the event? No. Just no.
> 
> On the side of adding events (which is what this thread is supposed to be about, may I add), it looks like pretty much everybody thinks that FTO would be a good thing to add, and possibly different order minx puzzles. I think that it would be awesome to extend the minx lines so that people can say that they specialize in the (mega/pyra)minx-like puzzles, just like people can say that they specialize in NxNs.


I feel like 7x7 adds nothing, and the people that specialize in it have the skills for other big cubes. With Clock, Skewb, or 2x2, The solving methods are totally unique to those events, and don't carry over to other events.


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## Deleted member 55877 (Jan 12, 2021)

DNF_Cuber said:


> I feel like 7x7 adds nothing, and the people that specialize in it have the skills for other big cubes. With Clock, Skewb, or 2x2, The solving methods are totally unique to those events, and don't carry over to other events.


agreed. 2x2 - 6x6 is the real "meat" of NxN's, 7x7 is just something extra. I'm not gonna start cheering for 7x7 to be removed, but if it gives room for other (unique) events to enter the WCA then I'm fine with 7x7 gone


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## Kit Clement (Jan 12, 2021)

I'm mostly being facetious about removing 2x2, I also would prefer not removing any events without valid reasons like was done for Magic for the magics. Removing events because of silly reasons like "redundancy" or other subjective reasons holds no weight.

However, not recognizing single records or rankings for the ultra-fast events like 2x2/Pyra/Skewb should be seriously considered. They reflect scramble luck and the number of competitions you attend far more than skill. Publishing records/rankings for these gives the false impression to those who don't know better that they are a valid reflection of skill. I realize that this happens to some degree with other events, as nobody should argue that Yusheng Du is the best 3x3x3 solver in the world because of one solve, but there's a fundamental difference between getting lucky on substeps of a 3x3x3 solve to get WR and getting a U-perm on skewb to get WR. The former still requires being highly skilled at the event, the latter does not.


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## Heath_Flick05 (Jan 12, 2021)

BenChristman1 said:


> To all the people saying we should remove events:
> 
> Why? I would like to know why you want events like 2x2, 7x7 and Clock removed. Remember the backlash that the WCA got after Feet got removed? It’s because people put time into practicing these events, but now you just think it’s a good idea to strip away their records and other achievements? So why would you think it’s good to essentially throw all their hard work down the drain? I personally love 2x2 and Clock, and there are plenty other people who do too, so believe it or not, people actually do like these events. Just because you may not like an event doesn’t mean that everybody hates it. I hate skewb. I know that @u Cube loves it, but is it fair for me to say that we should get rid of it because it sucks, but he has put a crazy amount of time and effort into the event? No. Just no.
> 
> On the topic of adding events (which is what this thread is supposed to be about, may I add), it looks like pretty much everybody thinks that FTO would be a good thing to add, and possibly different order minx puzzles. I think that it would be awesome to extend the minx lines so that people can say that they specialize in the (mega/pyra)minx-like puzzles, just like people can say that they specialize in NxNs.



I agree that people not liking an event shouldn't be grounds for its removal, but i believe that the two events that contribute absolutely nothing to speedsolving are 7x7 and 5BLD. 7x7 is basically 6x6 but bigger, with fixed centers, and different parity. 5BLD only adds more pieces onto 4BLD, and isn't widely practiced. Furthermore, i don't think the removal of these events would strip people of their hard work, as skill from 7x7 and 5BLD translates down to their lower-order counterparts. However, i don't think this logic applies to clock and 2x2. The skills required for being fast at clock are completely different from those demanded by any other event. Clock is completely unique as an event and therefore, in my opinion, should stay. 2x2 is completely different from any other NxN. it requires the memorization of a crazy amount of algs, fast turning, and the ability to foresee most of, if not all, of a solve. Overall, i think that 7x7 and 5BLD could be removed to make room for more unique, interesting, and diversifying events like FTO, Master Pyraminx, and Redi Cube.


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## Kit Clement (Jan 12, 2021)

Heath_Flick05 said:


> I agree that people not liking an event shouldn't be grounds for its removal, but i believe that the two events that contribute absolutely nothing to speedsolving are 7x7 and 5BLD. 7x7 is basically 6x6 but bigger, with fixed centers, and different parity. 5BLD only adds more pieces onto 4BLD, and isn't widely practiced. Furthermore, i don't think the removal of these events would strip people of their hard work, as skill from 7x7 and 5BLD translates down to their lower-order counterparts. However, i don't think this logic applies to clock and 2x2. The skills required for being fast at clock are completely different from those demanded by any other event. Clock is completely unique as an event and therefore, in my opinion, should stay. 2x2 is completely different from any other NxN. it requires the memorization of a crazy amount of algs, fast turning, and the ability to foresee most of, if not all, of a solve. Overall, i think that 7x7 and 5BLD could be removed to make room for more unique, interesting, and diversifying events like FTO, Master Pyraminx, and Redi Cube.



Have you ever tried BLD events? 5BLD may have similar piece types to 4BLD, but if that's your only reasoning, why not remove 5x5x5 while we're at it? The memory skills needed for 5BLD are different than 4BLD at a high level - much of 4BLD can be done with mostly short-term memory, whereas 5BLD pushes into long-term memory like MBLD, although requires 100% accuracy and emphasizes speed over quantity.

Popularity of an event should always be put into context of the barrier to entry. Sure, lots of people are into 2x2x2/pyra/skewb, but it takes almost no effort to begin solving these puzzles. Difficulty/depth are valid qualities of an event, and if we solely used popularity to gauge new events, we'd just have shallow events like these.

Additionally, there should be no reason to remove events without reasons that go beyond redundancy and other subjective reasons. Rather than contract events, I'd prefer to expand the event lists. The only reason people think that there's a limit for events is to be able to hold them all at major championships, but I'd imagine that many would be ecstatic to have more events at local competitions even if they weren't at major championships. Tiered systems that define what events must/may(/cannot?) be held at majors would eliminate any real need to talk about removing events, just to talk about what is necessary at a major championship.


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## BenChristman1 (Jan 12, 2021)

Kit Clement said:


> Additionally, there should be no reason to remove events without reasons that go beyond redundancy and other subjective reasons. Rather than contract events, I'd prefer to expand the event lists. The only reason people think that there's a limit for events is to be able to hold them all at major championships, but I'd imagine that many would be ecstatic to have more events at local competitions even if they weren't at major championships. Tiered systems that define what events must/may(/cannot?) be held at majors would eliminate any real need to talk about removing events, just to talk about what is necessary at a major championship.


I agree that the reasons that people are giving for removing events are not great, but I couldn't really find a way to put it into words, but you did a great job, so thank you. I also agree that there is no reason for removing events if the WCA would implement a tiered system. I'd never thought of/considered this idea before listening to the couple episodes of LBL that you talked about this in, and I think that a tiered event system is an amazing idea! (Assuming there are 3 tiers,) tier 1 events (10-12 of them) would have to be held at championships, tier 2 could do every other (for example, if 5BLD was a tier 2 event, it would be held at Worlds 2021, not at 2023, then have it again at 2025), which would keep the number of events at a Worlds down to 16-18 every year, which would be manageable (obviously, I've never organized a large comp, but it has been done in the last 3 Worlds). And tier 3 events would not be allowed to be held at championships, but people could go crazy with 150-200 person comps (post-Covid, of course) that have more obscure events that the WCA still wants to recognize. Again, you have said this all on your podcast, and I agree 100%. I think that most people that practice the less popular/"less important" events would be able to understand that not many people do their event, and they would be able to accept that it should be a tier 2/3 event.


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## thorsilver (Jan 12, 2021)

I'd be in favour of FTO, Redi Cube, Kilominx and Curvy Copter.

FTO brings in a new category of puzzle (octahedrons), the solve is interesting and different in character from the cubes or dodecahedrons. The hardware is awful, so the fact that so many people still persevere in this event despite that really shows the level of commitment in that community.

Redi Cube is fun and quick yet non-trivial. The solve is basically intuitive which makes it very accessible to new cubers. The hardware is good too, the Eight Petals Cube is factory-magnetised. There is a random-state scrambler available too.

The Curvy Copter would add the WCA's first edge-turning puzzle and first jumbling puzzle. With shapeshifting and jumbling there's a huge amount of variety and challenge in the solve. There is a random-state scrambler available. The hardware is a bit antiquated, but at least the LanLan is pretty serviceable after some break-in. The Qiyi Clover Cube could be a good alternative I think -- the hardware is very good, and the solve is a bit quicker due to the lack of corners, but it still shapeshifts and jumbles.

The Kilominx is a fast and fun event, but not very scramble-dependent since the state-space is much larger than the 3x3 (2.35 x 10^25 positions). Hardware is OK, random-state scramblers exist and there is a large community of solvers. I'd also like to see the Master Kilominx, but then I don't mind longer solves. The Shengshou Master Kilominx is quite good, and the solve is very enjoyable -- probably my favourite minx puzzle these days.


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## RoundUpCubing (Jan 12, 2021)

One more quick thing about removing events: the only reasons for something to be removed would be:
Its not a puzzle (magic lol)
Nobody does it and theres no tournaments with it for an extended period of time
Right now no wca event qualifies for removal (not even clock).


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## Kit Clement (Jan 12, 2021)

I would love to see Curvy Copter added in theory. However, there's some huge practical issues with the event that I've mentioned several times in other threads:

1. *There's not a good way to display scramble images of the puzzle.* This is an issue that can be solved, but I imagine the solution will make it very hard to read the scramble images effectively and check the state of the puzzle in jumbled form. SEE's solution of checking before leaving cubeshape is not going to be good enough for the WCA, as it cannot verify mistakes after that point.

2. *Transporting the puzzle from the scrambling table is going to be incredibly difficult*. The puzzle has no guaranteed resting spot that will prevent moves from being made by the table or inside the cube cover. Square-1 and Clock are already big problems with this, and at the very least these events have a consistent flat face to lie the puzzle down on, or for Square-1 have the insert solution to prevent turns. Curvy Copter will be a nightmare to run, especially given how few are actually familiar with the puzzle enough to know how to transport it and place it without moves being applied.

These two problems seem really difficult for Curvy Copter to overcome, especially the second one. Once more, the community interest in solving curvy copter is incredibly low currently, so until that takes off, I don't see this happening anytime soon, if ever.


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## thorsilver (Jan 12, 2021)

Kit Clement said:


> I would love to see Curvy Copter added in theory. However, there's some huge practical issues with the event that I've mentioned several times in other threads:
> 
> 1. *There's not a good way to display scramble images of the puzzle.* This is an issue that can be solved, but I imagine the solution will make it very hard to read the scramble images effectively and check the state of the puzzle in jumbled form. SEE's solution of checking before leaving cubeshape is not going to be good enough for the WCA, as it cannot verify mistakes after that point.
> 
> 2. *Transporting the puzzle from the scrambling table is going to be incredibly difficult*. The puzzle has no guaranteed resting spot that will prevent moves from being made by the table or inside the cube cover. Square-1 and Clock are already big problems with this, and at the very least these events have a consistent flat face to lie the puzzle down on, or for Square-1 have the insert solution to prevent turns. Curvy Copter will be a nightmare to run, especially given how few are actually familiar with the puzzle enough to know how to transport it and place it without moves being applied.



Three options come to mind:

1) Scramble the puzzle with jumbling, but no shapeshifting -- i.e., simply stop the scramble where the SEE scrambler asks for verification. This would still create significantly more challenging solves than non-jumbling scrambles.

2) Setup the scrambler so that one face of the shapeshifted puzzle is always non-shapeshifted, allowing the puzzle to sit stable on that side.

3) Implement 3D images of the scrambled puzzle. Something like this, with the addition of shapeshifting moves. 

If we did (1), then transport is no longer an issue. It's not completely ideal to stay only in cube shape, but the jumbling aspect in itself is still a significant new addition to the WCA, while shapeshifting is already represented by the Square-1.

Likewise with (2), transport would then be fine, but the puzzle wouldn't be fully shapeshifted. Again I don't particularly view this as a deal-breaker, and altering the scramblers in this way would be pretty easy.

If we did (3), transport would still be an issue, but given that it's vanishingly unlikely that moving the puzzle to the table would create enough unwanted moves to return the puzzle all the way to cube shape, we could just live with it? A Curvy Copter solve is massively longer than a Square-1 solve, so a couple of unwanted moves isn't nearly as impactful. The WCA already allows incorrect scrambles of other long events (6x6, 7x7 or Megaminx) to be used at the discretion of the Delegate, so the same common-sense rule could apply to the Curvy Copter. 



> These two problems seem really difficult for Curvy Copter to overcome, especially the second one. Once more, the community interest in solving curvy copter is incredibly low currently, so until that takes off, I don't see this happening anytime soon, if ever.



I'm not sure I agree with community interest being 'incredibly low', when the puzzle has SEE representation, several alg sets generated and a random-state scrambler. The overwhelming majority of puzzles don't have that level of effort applied to them. It's also a very well-known non-WCA puzzle and exists in many people's collections even if they don't speed-solve it, so I suspect if the WCA would support this puzzle, there would be a large potential community out there.


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## OreKehStrah (Jan 12, 2021)

Kit Clement said:


> I would love to see Curvy Copter added in theory. However, there's some huge practical issues with the event that I've mentioned several times in other threads:
> 
> 1. *There's not a good way to display scramble images of the puzzle.* This is an issue that can be solved, but I imagine the solution will make it very hard to read the scramble images effectively and check the state of the puzzle in jumbled form. SEE's solution of checking before leaving cubeshape is not going to be good enough for the WCA, as it cannot verify mistakes after that point.
> 
> ...


I mentioned this in the CC discussion post but my idea for tracking the CC state after jumbling out of cube shape is having each position of an edge have a number 1-6 and then a box will have a list of what rotated position each edge is in instead of having to check the shape of the puzzle. I kinda suspect that it might be best for future CC solving and scrambling to just leave the puzzle in cube shape since my modded puzzle can usually fudge through moves a stock puzzle can’t. For a comp should this be allowed? Not by the typical rules of a puzzle can’t make nonstandard movements, but in effect that would also be banning modding on the CC.


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## Kit Clement (Jan 12, 2021)

thorsilver said:


> Three options come to mind:
> 
> 1) Scramble the puzzle with jumbling, but no shapeshifting -- i.e., simply stop the scramble where the SEE scrambler asks for verification. This would still create significantly more challenging solves than non-jumbling scrambles.
> 
> ...



I think that option 1 definitely addresses both fundamental problems. Cubeshape on that puzzle is probably my least favorite part of the solve anyway, and jumbling is really what makes it unique. Option 2 seems quite bizarre, and it would seem to always produce cubeshapes that are fairly trivial, so I don't see it as a worthwhile step away from option 1. Option 3 seems difficult from the point that many competitions print their scrambles, and 2d projections of a 3D image don't always look ideal. I also don't know the current feasibility of implementing these kinds of images into TNoodle software.

In terms of unofficial events, Curvy Copter is definitely lacking the community interest right now. The competition here on SS seems to rarely go above 3 weekly competitors, and many of the people who did push their times down on the puzzle aren't solving it any more (Aedan Bryant and Walker Welch come to mind). I'm pretty sure I'm ranked 3rd or 4th on the SS rankings right now, and I've done very little practice to achieve those times. Master Pyraminx, Kilominx, and especially FTO have much more community support and interest right now, and don't present any significant logistical issues. I don't think it's impossible for Curvy Copter to become WCA official, I just think it has a long road, especially in comparison to other new puzzle candidates.


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## Silky (Jan 12, 2021)

Kit Clement said:


> Have you ever tried BLD events? 5BLD may have similar piece types to 4BLD, but if that's your only reasoning, why not remove 5x5x5 while we're at it? The memory skills needed for 5BLD are different than 4BLD at a high level - much of 4BLD can be done with mostly short-term memory, whereas 5BLD pushes into long-term memory like MBLD, although requires 100% accuracy and emphasizes speed over quantity.
> 
> Popularity of an event should always be put into context of the barrier to entry. Sure, lots of people are into 2x2x2/pyra/skewb, but it takes almost no effort to begin solving these puzzles. Difficulty/depth are valid qualities of an event, and if we solely used popularity to gauge new events, we'd just have shallow events like these.
> 
> Additionally, there should be no reason to remove events without reasons that go beyond redundancy and other subjective reasons. Rather than contract events, I'd prefer to expand the event lists. The only reason people think that there's a limit for events is to be able to hold them all at major championships, but I'd imagine that many would be ecstatic to have more events at local competitions even if they weren't at major championships. Tiered systems that define what events must/may(/cannot?) be held at majors would eliminate any real need to talk about removing events, just to talk about what is necessary at a major championship.


I think another solution would be to hold dedicated competitions for groups of events. More specifically there is an annual world FMC competition dedicated to specifically FMC. If this were to expanded to say a non-nxn puzzle comp or an only BLD comp we would be able to host a much larger variety of events within that category ( e.g. Curvy copter, Redi cube, Master Pyra for non-nxn and Mega BLD, team BLD, Squan BLD, etc. for BLD only comp ). This would completely take away the pressure to include every event at Worlds while maintaining serious competition in these events. This could work with the tiered system and you may be able to vary the structure of World ( i.e. including a list of classic events, the more/most popular events, and niche events on some sort of rotational schema ).


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## Kit Clement (Jan 12, 2021)

Silky said:


> I think another solution would be to hold dedicated competitions for groups of events. More specifically there is an annual world FMC competition dedicated to specifically FMC. If this were to expanded to say a non-nxn puzzle comp or an only BLD comp we would be able to host a much larger variety of events within that category ( e.g. Curvy copter, Redi cube, Master Pyra for non-nxn and Mega BLD, team BLD, Squan BLD, etc. for BLD only comp ). This would completely take away the pressure to include every event at Worlds while maintaining serious competition in these events. This could work with the tiered system and you may be able to vary the structure of World ( i.e. including a list of classic events, the more/most popular events, and niche events on some sort of rotational schema ).



Multi location competitions will never happen outside of FMC. It's been rejected by WCAT/board many times over because scramble information is too difficult to protect across several locations. FMC is unique in that attempts are scheduled and take a prolonged period of time, so starting at slightly desynced times is not a major issue.


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## Silky (Jan 12, 2021)

Kit Clement said:


> Multi location competitions will never happen outside of FMC. It's been rejected by WCAT/board many times over because scramble information is too difficult to protect across several locations. FMC is unique in that attempts are scheduled and take a prolonged period of time, so starting at slightly desynced times is not a major issue.


Well I'm not taking about it as multi location, just in the sense that its a dedicated competition to a subset of events. Would make more sense at a national level probably.


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## Kit Clement (Jan 13, 2021)

Silky said:


> Well I'm not taking about it as multi location, just in the sense that its a dedicated competition to a subset of events. Would make more sense at a national level probably.



Most people that are highly competitive at these "side" events are also competitive at the core events. Traveling to any major championship is an ordeal in time and money, let alone traveling to two. Most are going to chose the major championship with core events, so I'm skeptical that a major championship for side events would get significant non-local participation. Most people attend these major competitions not for the event list, but to be around lots of other cubers and meet idols, and that's going to happen at the core championship. Lower participation means a side events championship is less likely to be sponsored by a cube store/company, which means less prize money (if any), which means even less of an incentive for the top competitors in these events to attend.


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