# best BLD method



## normanbim (Sep 1, 2007)

I've learned bill mcgaugh's two-cycle method approach last year. 
average=8min
fastest=5min
Today I'm using macky's three-cycle method
average=5min
fastest=2:58.67

then I see shaipo's world record at 54.83 sec and i was like "dang, it's impossible to do that, and he uses a different method"
so currently I'm learning stefan pochmann's orient-permute cycling but generally, i just want to learn shaipo's method for solving 3x3x3 blindfolded. so, can anyone teach me? please...


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## Erik (Sep 1, 2007)

Only Matyi can learn you that cause he is the only one who knows it. 
Currently I'm working on a method that can come close to the speed of Matyi's method. I think I'll make it public soon.


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## Johannes91 (Sep 1, 2007)

Rowe Hessler is pretty fast, too, and he says he uses purely Macky's method.


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## masterofthebass (Sep 1, 2007)

I use Pochmann's and my best is 2:04. The only problem with it, is that it takes a while because you're only doing one piece at a time. Also, if you're doing Stefan's original method, the T perm takes over 2 seconds for me on avg, which adds time on for execution. The Y perm isn't much faster either. Using Macky's method is probably the quickest method that's out there right now, but you just have learn a lot of algorithms. I'm pretty sure Leyan and Rowe and everyone uses Macky's method.


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## Johannes91 (Sep 1, 2007)

masterofthebass said:


> Using Macky's method is probably the quickest method that's out there right now, but you just have learn a lot of algorithms. I'm pretty sure Leyan and Rowe and everyone uses Macky's method.


Well, 5-10 algs is certainly enough to get really fast times, and most cubers know a few of those already.

Mátyás doesn't use that method as far as I know.


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## edd5190 (Sep 1, 2007)

I've heard from several people/places that Matyas uses an "advanced 3-cycle", method with no orientation stage. I'm guessing that's why he has amazing times. Also Rowe Hessler said that he uses a similar method.


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## Jack (Sep 1, 2007)

Does he use M2? In the videos he looks like he is using the M slice a lot.


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## Mátyás Kuti(shaipo) (Sep 1, 2007)

Jack said:


> Does he use M2? In the videos he looks like he is using the M slice a lot.



They are edge 3 cycles, with M and U turns...


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## Pedro (Sep 1, 2007)

Matyas, will you ever publish your method?


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## normanbim (Sep 2, 2007)

hmm. i'm thinking of having a method using 
1)corner orient
2)corner permute
3)edge orient-permute


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## Pedro (Sep 2, 2007)

then you can use Stefan's M2 method for the edges...

or commutators

or 3-cycles with free setups


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## Davepencilguin (Sep 3, 2007)

Just an idea:
What if you used something like the T or Y permutation to permute edges and corners at the same time?
It would be a 2-cycle method, but it could still be fast.
Maybe even then, the setup moves could me developed so that orientation was done along with the double permutation...


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## AvGalen (Sep 3, 2007)

That would give you very fast Alg-execution, but very slow (and difficult) setup moves. Also, you would have trouble because there are 8 corners and 12 edges so you would be "short on corners" to do the cycles with. Parities and small versus large cycles all would require a lot of thinking. Basically it would be really fast to execute if you could figure out the solution before the timer starts. Otherwise it would be to slow.

(and technically it would be a 2x2 cycle method)


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## joey (Sep 3, 2007)

I just tried to solve using corners and edges at the same time, and the algs weren't actually *that* hard! But, they are hard enough to require several seconds to think about, which is a waste of time! During BLD setup moves should take no time to think about. Therefore the actual solving could be quite fast, but delays could be long.


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## Stefan (Sep 3, 2007)

http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/blindfoldsolving-rubiks-cube/message/1459


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## AvGalen (Sep 3, 2007)

I had a discussion with Clément Gallet and Gilles vdP on exactly this topic last weekend in Lyon. I think I will give it a try because it would require less memorisation than 3-cycle and my setup-moves are already slow so it won't hurt my speed as much as most others.

Nice link Stefan, do you know if anyone (Daniel) actually uses this method? The topic just died a long time ago.


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## Stefan (Sep 3, 2007)

I don't, but he's an active member here.


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## Davepencilguin (Sep 3, 2007)

Corner orientation couldn't be incorporated into it...
The more I think about it, the more it seems impossible. (or, I should say, WAY too difficult.)

At most, it would be:
corner orientation
edge orientation with edge and corner permutation


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## Stefan (Sep 3, 2007)

Davepencilguin said:


> Corner orientation couldn't be incorporated into it...
> The more I think about it, the more it seems impossible. (or, I should say, WAY too difficult.)



Why? Just learn six times as many algs, one for each edge+corner orientation. Then set the pieces up the shortest way possible and use the appropriately orienting alg. I believe that's what Daniel already did and described.


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## AvGalen (Sep 3, 2007)

I agree with Stefan. It is "just" a matter of using the correct setup-moves or extra algs. It will be difficult to do, but you solve 4 pieces at the same time this way!


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## Davepencilguin (Sep 3, 2007)

Can anyone post a link to the files talked about in the yahoo forum?


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## joey (Sep 3, 2007)

Yes, i noticed there seemed to be no file either.

But, you can check daniel's site: http://dbeyer.110mb.com


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## AvGalen (Sep 3, 2007)

I couldn't find them here: http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/blindfoldsolving-rubiks-cube/files/


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## Davepencilguin (Sep 3, 2007)

joey said:


> Yes, i noticed there seemed to be no file either.
> 
> But, you can check daniel's site: http://dbeyer.110mb.com



There are plenty of algorithms, but it's sorta hard to make since of them all...

These definitely proved me wrong:
!M Block L'U'LF2R'DR'D'R2F2
-M Block L'ULUL'U'LFL'U'LULF'L'
+M Block y'RU'R'U'RUR'F'RUR'U'R'FRy

I guess corner orientation IS possible.


That and this:
R' F R F2 U F R U R' F' U' F
are exceptionally helpful.


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## Stefan (Sep 3, 2007)

AvGalen said:


> you solve 4 pieces at the same time this way!


Um, I think two.


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## Davepencilguin (Sep 3, 2007)

Your solving one edge piece and one corner piece completely.
As in, your orienting and permuting one corner piece and one edge piece.


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## Davepencilguin (Sep 4, 2007)

Ok, I did the math:
11 edges permuted
with 2 different orientations
7 corners permuted
with 3 different orientations

so, 11 x 7 x 2 x 3 = 462 setup "algorithms"


I'm thinking it would be better to figure them all out now and memorize them rather than figure them out during the solve. It's kind of like memorizing F2L rather than doing it intuitively. Though there are quite a bit more of them.


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## joey (Sep 4, 2007)

Davepencilguin said:


> Ok, I did the math:
> 11 edges permuted
> with 2 different orientations
> 7 corners permuted
> ...



To be honest, I dont think the speed gain actualy is worth learn 462 setups.


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## Davepencilguin (Sep 4, 2007)

I'm thinking so also.
I'm thinking doing a 1 step blindfolded solve would be similar to learning all 1211 last layer algorithms. It's just not worth it. (even though 462 isn't as much as 1211)

Orienting edges while permuting edges and corners would have 154 setups.
Orienting and permuting edges, then orienting and permuting corners would have 43 setups.


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## tim (Sep 4, 2007)

You can decrease the setup moves to (11*7=)77 by not paying attention to the orientation of the pieces and learn a few algorithms (2*3=6) to handle the different orientations.


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## hdskull (Sep 4, 2007)

guys, u know, matyas solves in around 40 seconds, that's around how fast leyan and tyson solves. it's just whatever method matyas uses requires less/easier memorization, or he just has good memory. i think the memorization time is the only difference.


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## AvGalen (Sep 4, 2007)

Not true:
Leyan and Tyson do about 30+60 (memo, execution)
Mátyás does about 15+40


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## joey (Sep 4, 2007)

Arnaud: I think those numbers are actually slightly off.

I think Leyan and Tyson are more like 40+50(memo, execution)

Or maybe even 45+45.


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## Johannes91 (Sep 4, 2007)

And neither one of them averages 1:30, at least not in official competitions.


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## AvGalen (Sep 4, 2007)

Nobody averages below 1:30 in an official competition 

But both Leyan and Tyson have gotten sub 1:30 in an official competition. And Leyan did it twice

I am pretty sure about the 30+60 times. Maybe someone has a link to a video of a 1:30 solve of them?


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## joey (Sep 4, 2007)

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=HM0Q2NE54fM

Thats Tyson's, I think its a 1:28. With around 45s memo.


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## AvGalen (Sep 4, 2007)

On this solve you are right: about 45+45. As you can see his execution was almost perfect.


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## Mike Hughey (Sep 4, 2007)

I still think it's worthwhile to note that Rowe Hessler is doing almost as well as Mátyás (unofficially, for the moment), and he claims to be using Macky's method in pure form. From speedcubing.com, posted just a few days ago:

"51.28 seconds	Rowe Hessler	louie scrambled my cube, 15 second memo...training for world champs 07...i got a 56.88 and a 52.58 so far today...purely macky's method- cubefreak.net"

I doubt Rowe will ever be as fast as Mátyás, but he's surprisingly close, and with memorization times that rival Mátyás's. So I really don't think the method makes a very big difference.

In fact, Mátyás seems to have so much general cubing talent, has it occurred to you that maybe he's actually being held back by his method? Maybe if he used Macky's method, he'd get even faster!?!


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## joey (Sep 4, 2007)

Mike Hughey said:


> I doubt Rowe will ever be as fast as Mátyás, but he's surprisingly close, and with memorization times that rival Mátyás's. So I really don't think the method makes a very big difference.



The method does make a difference, because with pochmann I find it very difficult to get sub60 execution times, if ever. Whereas if I use some sort of cycle based method, i can drop maybve 10-20s times. For me, that can mean that difference between 2mins and sub2. So in my eyes, I believe sub2 with pochmann is relatively difficult, even if I have come close several times.


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## AvGalen (Sep 4, 2007)

Good point Mike. Everyone seems to to accept Mátyás as the "master of blindfolded" and at the moment he definately is.

But don't forget that it was only a couple of months ago (Belgian Open 2007) that he set his world record of 1:20.30 and 7/7 in 21:59. He didn't get the 4x4x4_bf and 5x5x5_bf records back then.

Then he did 5/5 in 16 minutes which is about the same as 7/7 in 21:59 at the German Open.

At the Czech Open he made some big improvements to all his blindfolded results: 5/5 in 9:31, 6:39 for 4x4x4, 10:05 for 5x5x5 and 55 seconds (twice) on 3x3x3.

His final performance at the Swedish Open was by no means "bad", especially considering his 8/8 WR, but his times were not as impressive as at the Czech Open.

At the same time the competition has gotten much better, especially Rowe Hessler (sub 60 unofficially) and Ryosuke Mondo (11/12).

I think that if all great blindfolders come to the WC next month, Mátiás will have a very hard time winning all blindfolded events, especially if you take the extra pressure and his age into consideration.

I think Mátyás has taken blindfolded to a whole new level this year, but he is not the only one on that level (anymore).


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## Stefan (Sep 4, 2007)

joey said:


> The method does make a difference, because with pochmann I find it very difficult to get sub60 execution times, if ever.


Which of my methods? The old one (3+1 main algs), the very old one (just 1 alg, the Tperm), or M2/R2? The latter I believe can be executed in about 40 seconds on average.



joey said:


> Whereas if I use some sort of cycle based method


"Whereas"? My methods *are* cycle based. When will people stop claiming it isn't?


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## joey (Sep 4, 2007)

StefanPochmann said:


> Which of my methods? The old one (3+1 main algs), the very old one (just 1 alg, the Tperm), or M2/R2? The latter I believe can be executed in about 40 seconds on average.


The old one(4 algs), is the one I am talking about. I have used M2 a few times, but not a full blindfold solve.



StefanPochmann said:


> "Whereas"? My methods *are* cycle based. When will people stop claiming it isn't?



Sorry, I meant a 3-cycle method.


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## hdskull (Sep 4, 2007)

in this video: http://youtube.com/watch?v=JCkI2qh1SF4

leyan's memo and execution was 44 secs.

leyan's times are very consistent, here are his US Open times: 1:27.69 1:47.77 1:31.75
i think leyan's gonna be faster at WC if he goes.

hessler kinda proves my point because the 3 cycle can be done in sub 60 with 15 sec memo.


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## hait2 (Sep 4, 2007)

this thread inspired me to muck about with the current method i use (3cycle) and eliminate edge orientation from it completely. it wasn't hard either, as EO is so easy to manipulate. you just have to learn 4 associations (in one of which you do nothing). no new algs, just different (not harder!) setup moves

i'll practice it a bit and if it wasn't a waste of time, i'll see if i can do the same for CO (although to make it feasible, you'd have to memorize algs, about 8, else the setup moves get ridiculous)


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## Mike Hughey (Sep 4, 2007)

hdskull said:


> hessler kinda proves my point because the 3 cycle can be done in sub 60 with 15 sec memo.



Since Rowe is having the approximately the same split of memorization to execution that Mátyás is having, I think it's a good demonstration that Mátyás's method isn't really more conducive to quick memorization. I don't think it's the method - it's the person. Mátyás and Rowe are both fantastically talented.

That being said, I'm planning on trying to learn Stefan's M2 and R2 methods soon - not because I hope they will improve my times, but because I want the insight as to how they work. And Daniel Beyer seems to think they're helpful for the middle edge pieces on the 5x5x5 BLD.

By the way, I'm still one of the unusual ones who remains bound by execution time rather than memorization time. Execution always takes me longer than memorization - I don't know why. Maybe my being still over 30 seconds at 3x3x3 speedsolving has something to do with it. I think I might be the fastest BLD solver in the world who's still that slow at the regular 3x3x3!  (Of course I'm still very slow at 3x3x3 BLD - my best is about 3 minutes. But it's much more respectable than my 3x3x3 speedsolving time.)


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## Erik (Sep 4, 2007)

M2 on 5x5 middle layer edges is a piece of cake


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## Stefan (Sep 4, 2007)

Davepencilguin said:


> As in, your orienting and permuting one corner piece and one edge piece.



Is that what was meant with "4 pieces"? You guys who separate orienting and permuting... perverts.


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## Davepencilguin (Sep 4, 2007)

Mike Hughey said:


> By the way, I'm still one of the unusual ones who remains bound by execution time rather than memorization time. Execution always takes me longer than memorization - I don't know why. Maybe my being still over 30 seconds at 3x3x3 speedsolving has something to do with it. I think I might be the fastest BLD solver in the world who's still that slow at the regular 3x3x3!  (Of course I'm still very slow at 3x3x3 BLD - my best is about 3 minutes. But it's much more respectable than my 3x3x3 speedsolving time.)




I'm exactly the same way. That's why I'm trying to create a 3-cycle method that orients and permutes simultaneously.

This is a video of one of my solves(I know it's failed, but notice the 45 s. memorization.):

http://youtube.com/watch?v=yfX7G3NYOX8


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## ThePizzaGuy92 (Sep 5, 2007)

dang, i do a horrible 4-step t-perm method. haha. i couldn't really understand macky's method, although i only spent like 4 minutes before giving up


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## Davepencilguin (Sep 5, 2007)

I'm going to type up a basic guide and develop some setup moves on my "new" method.
Expect a guide tomorrow night (central time [GMT -6:00] for me), and if there isn't, feel free to yell at me for procrastinating. 

A quick outline:
First, the corners are oriented
then, edges are both oriented and permuted while corners are permuted all (mostly) focusing on the T-permutation.


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## hdskull (Sep 5, 2007)

hait2 said:


> this thread inspired me to muck about with the current method i use (3cycle) and eliminate edge orientation from it completely. it wasn't hard either, as EO is so easy to manipulate. you just have to learn 4 associations (in one of which you do nothing). no new algs, just different (not harder!) setup moves
> 
> i'll practice it a bit and if it wasn't a waste of time, i'll see if i can do the same for CO (although to make it feasible, you'd have to memorize algs, about 8, else the setup moves get ridiculous)



creating a guide soon ?

i think the restriction move for parities can be "unrestricted" to orient and permute at the same time. but i'm still a beginner so if what i say don't make sense ignore it, haha.


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## Johannes91 (Sep 5, 2007)

AvGalen said:


> Nobody averages below 1:30 in an official competition


You probably meant "nobody has done an official average". But obviously, it's possible to calculate an average of their results.

Leyan and Tyson have had dozens of attempts, so it doesn't make sense to me to concentrate on just one or two of them. It's possible that there are solves that took 30 seconds to memorize and 60 execute (or 45 + 45), but that's not what they get regulary.


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## Stefan (Sep 5, 2007)

AvGalen said:


> I think that if all great blindfolders come to the WC next month, Mátiás will have a very hard time winning all blindfolded events, especially if you take the extra pressure and his age into consideration.


I'd bet let's say up to 50 Euros with you that Mátyás will win all four blindfold events.


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## AvGalen (Sep 5, 2007)

I don't know if betting is illegal or not, but if it is allowed I will take that bet.

I will also take bets (1 bet and 1 euro per person) that I will win multiple blindfolded on a 1/1000 basis (meaning if I don't win you get 1 euro, if I do win I get 1000 euro)


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## Erik (Sep 5, 2007)

wow, the stakes are certainly high arnaud xD


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## hait2 (Sep 6, 2007)

hdskull said:


> creating a guide soon ?
> 
> i think the restriction move for parities can be "unrestricted" to orient and permute at the same time. but i'm still a beginner so if what i say don't make sense ignore it, haha.



there's no need for a guide as of now, i could sum it up in 6 lines. maybe if i ever get around to figuring out CO, it might take up a paragraph. it's just a small extension to 3cycle, not a new method (and i'm happy to say it's going well!)

unless i misunderstood what you meant ;


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## pjk (Sep 6, 2007)

Im in on the bet about Matyas winning all 4 BLD events. I will bet $5 USD. PM me to confirm if you are interested.


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