# Compulsory testing



## Dene (Mar 12, 2011)

I vote that all newcomers should have to have a go with the old Rubik's and Eastsheen 4x4 and 5x5 cubes before they are allowed to try new V-cubes so that those of us who know what we are talking about don't have to put up with stupid threads that receive a string of stupid replies like this one anymore.

All in favour say "aye".


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## aronpm (Mar 12, 2011)

aye


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## cubemaster13 (Mar 12, 2011)

Aye


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## Olji (Mar 12, 2011)

aye, tbh my first 5x5 was just that, an eastsheen xD


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## Owen (Mar 12, 2011)

No, that's not fair.


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## maggot (Mar 12, 2011)

aye ****in aye


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## ianini (Mar 12, 2011)

aye


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## cyoubx (Mar 12, 2011)

I don't actually see how those replies were that stupid...

The question was not thread-worthy, but making them use rubik's brand cubes first isn't going to change their first impressions of the v cubes...

I'm missing the logic here, so for now I say nay.


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## TheMachanga (Mar 12, 2011)

aye

I've always disliked seeing someone who just started buy $100+ dollars worth of the highest quality cubes.


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## JonnyWhoopes (Mar 12, 2011)

Aye.


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## a small kitten (Mar 13, 2011)

Dumb.


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## bluedasher (Mar 13, 2011)

cyoubx said:


> I don't actually see how those replies were that stupid...
> 
> The question was not thread-worthy, but making them use rubik's brand cubes first isn't going to change their first impressions of the v cubes...
> 
> I'm missing the logic here, so for now I say nay.



Same here. Why waste your money on a crappy cube, only to end up buying what is considered the best? if you start off with a V-Cube or use a Rubik's brand for thousands of solves and then use up a V-Cube, it is still a V-Cube.


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## nlCuber22 (Mar 13, 2011)

aye



Owen said:


> No, that's not fair.


 
Yes, it is.


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## aridus (Mar 13, 2011)

bluedasher said:


> Same here. Why waste your money on a crappy cube, only to end up buying what is considered the best? if you start off with a V-Cube or use a Rubik's brand for thousands of solves and then use up a V-Cube, it is still a V-Cube.


 
Yeah, not to mention "best" is relative anyway. If all other types of cube are wet and steaming piles of crap, and someone makes a new one that is merely a dry, solid and sturdy chunk of crap, if you get it you may have the best crap there is but you still have crap.


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## cyoubx (Mar 13, 2011)

nlCuber22 said:


> Yes, it is.


 
It's _fair_ but I fail to see what this would correct. I understand the point, I just don't see how this would change anything.


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## miniGOINGS (Mar 13, 2011)

While I see the point other people are trying to make, I can not agree completely. It is true that seeing newcomers spending ridiculous amounts of money on cubes is very annoying and disapointing, I hardly think we can do much about it. In a way I wish that I would have never used Rubik's brand cubes and instead gone straight to DIYs, but I can not know exactly how that would have affected me. I guess the point I'm trying to make is that it's their money that's being spent, and it's their choice to be idiotic with it.


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## aridus (Mar 13, 2011)

miniGOINGS said:


> While I see the point other people are trying to make, I can not agree completely. It is true that seeing newcomers spending ridiculous amounts of money on cubes is very annoying and disapointing, I hardly think we can do much about it. In a way I wish that I would have never used Rubik's brand cubes and instead gone straight to DIYs, but I can not know exactly how that would have affected me. I guess the point I'm trying to make is that it's their money that's being spent, and it's their choice to be idiotic with it.


 
I don't understand. Why bother? I already used dollar store cubes that make any Rubik's look absolutely GODLY by comparison. I'm not going to waste my time buying _real and true garbage_ "just for the experience" but that also does not mean I can't recognize what could have been better on what I did buy.


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## Erzz (Mar 13, 2011)

Aye. I feel it's more rewarding if you are used to a slow cube then change to a faster one. I remember when I first got my Alpha-V pretensioned and lubed. After having used an unlubed tight Alpha-I for months I thought it was absolutely amazing.


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## Daniel Wu (Mar 13, 2011)

The sad thing is that my ES 4x4 and Rubik's 4x4 are better than my Maru and QJ 4x4s. :/


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## masteranders1 (Mar 13, 2011)

rickcube said:


> The sad thing is that my ES 4x4 and Rubik's 4x4 are better than my Maru and QJ 4x4s. :/



:fp

aye


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## CubeLTD (Mar 13, 2011)

This probably isn't even a serious proposal, but I'll say nay.


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## crashdummy001 (Mar 13, 2011)

I seriously question the judgment of anyone who dares say "aye." If a new cuber wants to start off big, so be it! Who are you wannabe-dictators to say he can't? So what if you think it's a dumb idea to start off big? Do you really think you can _prevent_ it? What makes you think that you're the sole ruler of the cubing community? How dare you even propose a _limitation_ on what cube one uses? It's their OWN CHOICE! If you think that it causes "stupid threads that receive a string of stupid replies" blah blah blah, no one's forcing you to be a part of this forum. You don't like the threads, you don't like the replies, then simply GTFO. You CANNOT take away anyone's right to use whatever cube they choose, whenever they choose. You may make cube selection _suggestions_, but you're an idiot if you say what is and what is not _allowed_! Now quit b----ing about "stupid threads," because you just made one yourself!

Thank you Owen, cyoubx, a small kitten, bluedasher, miniGOINGS, and CubeLTD for standing up for our _basic human rights_. The rest of you, please remember that NO ONE IS YOUR SLAVE.


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## qqwref (Mar 13, 2011)

It's pretty clear that nobody should be forced to use a specific type of cube, but I really do wish new people would stop worrying about the right type of cube to use. It clutters up the forum and wastes people's time, because until you're reasonably fast (under 20-30 seconds or so on the 3x3, for instance) it literally doesn't matter whether you use the worst DIY available or a top-of-the-line modified GuHong. If only there was some way to convince slow people that they could just buy any modern cube and be done with it for months...


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## cmhardw (Mar 13, 2011)

Alright everyone, let's not turn this into a flame war. Differing opinions are fine, but I would like to direct this to all posters in this thread to not to resort to personal attacks or insults at any point.

As for the original post, why stop there? Why not just come up with elaborate hazing rituals that all noobs must go through? Or better yet, no one new is ever allowed to join the community ever. They're just going to ask questions and make observations that have already been brought up before anyway. So, let's just forever ban all new registrations to WCA competitions and this forum and nip this in the bud. Why fix the symptom when you can fix the problem right?

I do hope everyone picks up on the sarcasm that should now be literally dripping from your monitor at this point. I think the attitudes of us "old timers" would be very different if people had yelled at us _for doing the same sorts of things when we were new to the community_. The only difference between old timers and current new members is that we old timers luckily skipped out on (most of) the hazing.

My $0.02


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## Kirjava (Mar 13, 2011)

they should use YJ. YJ is good


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## jms_gears1 (Mar 13, 2011)

miniGOINGS said:


> While I see the point other people are trying to make, I can not agree completely. It is true that seeing newcomers spending ridiculous amounts of money on cubes is very annoying and disapointing, I hardly think we can do much about it. In a way I wish that I would have never used Rubik's brand cubes and instead gone straight to DIYs, but I can not know exactly how that would have affected me. I guess the point I'm trying to make is that it's their money that's being spent, and it's their choice to be idiotic with it.


 
I stopped reading here..


MINIUBACK?


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## Cool Frog (Mar 13, 2011)

A thing I have learned about this forum, got to love the dictator ship.
(bragging not complaining)


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## IamWEB (Mar 13, 2011)

A *ship* full of *dictator* cubing pirates at sea, ready to bomb noob ships?

Dene's Beard is sly
Chris' Hard wick
Pi rates


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## aridus (Mar 13, 2011)

qqwref said:


> It's pretty clear that nobody should be forced to use a specific type of cube, but I really do wish new people would stop worrying about the right type of cube to use. It clutters up the forum and wastes people's time, because until you're reasonably fast (under 20-30 seconds or so on the 3x3, for instance) it literally doesn't matter whether you use the worst DIY available or a top-of-the-line modified GuHong. If only there was some way to convince slow people that they could just buy any modern cube and be done with it for months...



I think this has some merit, to an extent, and hey, maybe I can't talk yet because I barely get under 1:00 who knows. However, I think just having a good ergonomic cube which turns well is an excellent choice for anyone who is going to be doing a lot of time solving. 

I'm not necessarily talking about sub 20 speedsolve worthy here, I know that is beyond my scope since I don't do it yet. But having nice cubes has helped my enjoyment of it immensely. I can appreciate how well a Guhong turns and how well it cuts, it's not only for going fast but it takes much of the wasted effort out of struggling with cubes that turn like they have glue in them or lock up if you look at it wrong. Even my sister who never even solved a cube before was impressed by how totally nice and smooth my rubenking Guhong is when she was playing with it. 

Lack of experience doesn't make one completely blind.


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## moogra (Mar 13, 2011)

I've tried and owned both a Rubik's 4x4x4 and an Eastsheen 4x4x4 but I still don't see the point of people getting mad over the cubes other people buy. Anyone would want a good cube so just let him or her buy it. It's not really affecting anyone and he or she would be spending his or her own money. I never had problems with people with better cubes than I did such as the DIYs and I used a store bought Rubik's model until I bought a cube for myself (Haiyan Memory) in September 2010. Honestly though, who cares? If a friend wanted a cube, I'd buy a good cube for him or her. Maybe this is a common consensus with the sub-15 3x3 people that I just don't see.


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## Dene (Mar 13, 2011)

It is very obvious to me that 90% of the people replying to this thread did not get what I was saying. Perhaps this is my fault because I was not clear in my intentions.

However I would like to point out a few common misconceptions:

I _did not_ say that people should be forced to buy, or even spend any considerable period of time with, any cube. Anyone that seems to think I have claimed this, for shame! You should know better. This is especially directed at you, Mr. Hardwick. You have clearly misunderstood my intentions and have exaggerated to the extreme and I would expect better from you.

I _did not_ say that I believe any particular type of cube is the best cube of its kind, Mr. aridus: "Yeah, not to mention "best" is relative anyway."

I _did not_ assert any sort of dictatorship powers on which there would be any actual change to the structure of the cubing community. The fact that I put this up for vote (yet again let us stress the fact that the results of a vote would not have any implications in the real world because unlike what some people seem to think, I, nor anyone else, have any power to do anything of the sort), hence a DEMOCRACY, makes such accusations magnify the apparent stupidity of the accusers. Like seriously, I would be the worst dictator ever, asking for people to vote on things.

I _was not_ at any stage "mad over the cubes other people buy". I have no idea at all how the poster came to this conclusion. It was not visible in my post, nor was it implied in any sense. Refer to my first point above regarding the "buy" part of that statement. (Seriously though, how did anyone even come to think that I cared what people spend there money on???)

I would like to draw particular attention to this hilarious post:



> I seriously question the judgment of anyone who dares say "aye." If a new cuber wants to start off big, so be it! Who are you wannabe-dictators to say he can't? So what if you think it's a dumb idea to start off big? Do you really think you can prevent it? What makes you think that you're the sole ruler of the cubing community? How dare you even propose a limitation on what cube one uses? It's their OWN CHOICE! If you think that it causes "stupid threads that receive a string of stupid replies" blah blah blah, no one's forcing you to be a part of this forum. You don't like the threads, you don't like the replies, then simply GTFO. You CANNOT take away anyone's right to use whatever cube they choose, whenever they choose. You may make cube selection suggestions, but you're an idiot if you say what is and what is not allowed! Now quit b----ing about "stupid threads," because you just made one yourself!
> 
> Thank you Owen, cyoubx, a small kitten, bluedasher, miniGOINGS, and CubeLTD for standing up for our basic human rights. The rest of you, please remember that NO ONE IS YOUR SLAVE.



I'll look at this bit by bit. 

Firstly what are you on about "start off big"? I have absolutely no idea where this is coming from. I never said anything about starting off with any particular size. Seriously, if you don't want to come across as mentally retarded then don't say things that don't make any sense.
Secondly, when did I assert at any stage that I thought I could prevent anything? 
Thirdly, when did I imply at any stage that I was the ruler of the cubing community? Refer to my comment on democracy above for a response.
Fourthly, when did I at any stage say that I was going to impose a _limitation_ on the cube that someone can use? To the contrary, I was requesting an _expansion_ of the cubes used. Boy you are really starting to sound silly here. 
Fifthly, when did I at any stage make any proposition that would remove any human rights of any human being? I'm serious, I ask you to go back to my original post, actually read it, and then tell me when I even implied that I would like to remove someones human rights. When you are done checking, and have found nothing, feel free to punish yourself in any way you feel appropriate for bringing such an accusation to an innocent person.


Now to elaborate on exactly what I meant in my original post. I'm not sure why this wasn't obvious but nevermind.

The point that I want to stress is that for some reason people these days expect every cube to be perfect out of the box. Therefore when they receive a cube such as a V5 and it takes some effort to get it into the best possible condition (and by effort I mean "a few solves" as quoted directly from the thread I cited), people immediately come on here and complain that they are bitterly disappointed. These people appear to have absolutely no idea how good the cube they are handling really is. Obviously it's not perfect, but it's good enough with some use to get WR times that could not be achieved on any other cube. Therefore I would really like it if newcomers were to try out (I DO NOT MEAN PURCHASE, NOR DO I MEAN PUTTING IN ANY STRENUOUS EFFORT) some of the other types of cubes beforehand so that they can truly understand that what they have is a gift and not a burden. 

I can't think of anything else to say at this stage. Hopefully I have cleared some things up, but if anyone has questions feel free to ask and I will try to respond to everything.


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## DGraciaRubik (Mar 13, 2011)

aye


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## d4m4s74 (Mar 13, 2011)

aye


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## cyoubx (Mar 13, 2011)

> The point that I want to stress is that for some reason people these days expect every cube to be perfect out of the box. Therefore when they receive a cube such as a V5 and it takes some effort to get it into the best possible condition (and by effort I mean "a few solves" as quoted directly from the thread I cited), people immediately come on here and complain that they are bitterly disappointed. These people appear to have absolutely no idea how good the cube they are handling really is. Obviously it's not perfect, but it's good enough with some use to get WR times that could not be achieved on any other cube. Therefore I would really like it if newcomers were to try out (I DO NOT MEAN PURCHASE, NOR DO I MEAN PUTTING IN ANY STRENUOUS EFFORT) some of the other types of cubes beforehand so that they can truly understand that what they have is a gift and not a burden.



I get it now  Aye.


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## Chapuunka (Mar 13, 2011)

I felt the "have a go with" statement was pretty clear... But once a couple people didn't read your post carefully enough and jumped to conclusions, more people were convinced that was what you meant, and the snowball effect carried it along.

EDIT: Aye. I used a Rubik's 5x5, then an ES 5x5 my friends had and thought they were pretty great. When I got my own YJ I thought it was amazing. I much more appreciated it than I see others on the forum.


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## Cool Frog (Mar 13, 2011)

Dene said:


> Now to elaborate on exactly what I meant in my original post. I'm not sure why this wasn't obvious but nevermind.
> 
> The point that I want to stress is that for some reason people these days expect every cube to be perfect out of the box. Therefore when they receive a cube such as a V5 and it takes some effort to get it into the best possible condition (and by effort I mean "a few solves" as quoted directly from the thread I cited), people immediately come on here and complain that they are bitterly disappointed. These people appear to have absolutely no idea how good the cube they are handling really is. Obviously it's not perfect, but it's good enough with some use to get WR times that could not be achieved on any other cube. Therefore I would really like it if newcomers were to try out (I DO NOT MEAN PURCHASE, NOR DO I MEAN PUTTING IN ANY STRENUOUS EFFORT) some of the other types of cubes beforehand so that they can truly understand that what they have is a gift and not a burden.
> 
> I can't think of anything else to say at this stage. Hopefully I have cleared some things up, but if anyone has questions feel free to ask and I will try to respond to everything.


 
So, what you are saying is, that before people make dumb posts on how other cubes are terrible they try out the not so good ones?...

Aye


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## Jordie (Mar 13, 2011)

aye.


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## cmhardw (Mar 13, 2011)

Dene said:


> I vote that all newcomers should have to have a go with the old Rubik's and Eastsheen 4x4 and 5x5 cubes before they are allowed to try new V-cubes so that those of us who know what we are talking about don't have to put up with stupid threads that receive a string of stupid replies like this one anymore.
> 
> All in favour say "aye".


 


Dene said:


> The point that I want to stress is that for some reason people these days expect every cube to be perfect out of the box. Therefore when they receive a cube such as a V5 and it takes some effort to get it into the best possible condition (and by effort I mean "a few solves" as quoted directly from the thread I cited), people immediately come on here and complain that they are bitterly disappointed. These people appear to have absolutely no idea how good the cube they are handling really is. Obviously it's not perfect, but it's good enough with some use to get WR times that could not be achieved on any other cube. Therefore I would really like it if newcomers were to try out (I DO NOT MEAN PURCHASE, NOR DO I MEAN PUTTING IN ANY STRENUOUS EFFORT) some of the other types of cubes beforehand so that they can truly understand that what they have is a gift and not a burden.
> 
> I can't think of anything else to say at this stage. Hopefully I have cleared some things up, but if anyone has questions feel free to ask and I will try to respond to everything.


 
I think your second post is better phrased personally. At least it makes your point a bit more clear. Also, it is a good point. People _shouldn't_ freak out immediately and go to the forum for things like this. But, why should we lament these threads when they come up? The mods don't always catch threads like this right away, but generally obvious repeated threads will be merged into the originals, or closed with a re-direct. Not always, but generally.

My original reply that exaggerated to the extreme was not necessarily directed solely at you, Dene, but at the increasing number of "Stupid noobs are stupid" threads. I feel that if us older timers got hazed and yelled at more by those with more cubing experience than we had, then things would be different. One thing that will greatly reduce any tension from threads like the repeat one you linked would be to help the mods handle them by reporting them. That way these style threads can either be closed or merged into the original.

I feel that newer members should be allowed to stumble and help each other figure things out. That helps them build the next generation of cubers in the community as a tight knit group, just like us old timers (by the way, Dene, you are included in that label). Isn't that why we have the separate Speedcubing Help/Questions subforum? Any threads posted incorrectly into another sub-forum are always moved back to the Speedcubing Help/Questions area once discovered.


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## AustinReed (Mar 13, 2011)

Sorry, I had to do this...


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## crashdummy001 (Mar 13, 2011)

Dene, I laugh at your immaturity and lack of basic language skills.



Dene said:


> I _did not_ say that people should be forced to buy, or even spend any considerable period of time with, any cube.



lol?? "I vote that *all newcomers should* [...] *before they are allowed to try* new V-cubes." Who are you to say that they should not be _allowed_ to use V-cubes? Stop contradicting yourself. You ARE proposing that new members be FORCED to not use V-cubes. How else can you possibly interpret "_should not be allowed_"?



Dene said:


> I _did not_ assert any sort of dictatorship powers



You tell me how you're going to force others to use or not use certain cubes. Perhaps a letter to Verdes Innovations? Are you crazy?



Dene said:


> I _was not_ at any stage "mad over the cubes other people buy"... It was not visible in my post, nor was it implied in any sense.



Now that's a flat lie. "put up with *stupid threads* that receive a string of *stupid replies*." You use such adjectives, and you claim that you're not mad? Then you're mental.



Dene said:


> Firstly what are you on about "start off big"?



You show a first-grade understanding of English. It's obvious I was not talking about the _size_ of cubes, but the _quality_. You are undeniably against new cubers starting with high quality cubes. That is what I meant when I said "start off big."



Dene said:


> Secondly, when did I assert at any stage that I thought I could prevent anything?



If you're not trying to change anything, then what's the point of this thread? Just to rage and vent? Just to draw attention to yourself? Just to waste all of our time? Just to add to the "stupid threads that receive a string of stupid replies"?



Dene said:


> Thirdly, when did I imply at any stage that I was the ruler of the cubing community?



How else can you enforce your proposal? Why did you even _make_ the proposal if you knew you couldn't enforce it?



Dene said:


> Fourthly, when did I at any stage say that I was going to impose a _limitation_ on the cube that someone can use?



When you said "before they are allowed to try." If someone is not allowed to try the V-cubes, is that not a limitation?



Dene said:


> To the contrary, I was requesting an _expansion_ of the cubes used.



You were not requesting anything in your original post. You were proposing a limitation.



Dene said:


> Fifthly, when did I at any stage make any proposition that would remove any human rights of any human being?



Again, "before they are allowed to try." You can't tell anyone that he isn't allowed to try V-cubes without infringing on his rights.



Dene said:


> innocent person



Oh, poor baby. Either you totally F'd up your original post, you have no understanding of the English language, or you're just seeking attention.



Dene said:


> Now to elaborate on exactly what I meant... I'm not sure why this wasn't obvious



Why it wasn't obvious? Because you clearly can't use language to express yourself properly. The phrase "before they are allowed to try" almost screams, "Limitation! Dictator!"



Dene said:


> The point that I want to stress is that for some reason people these days expect every cube to be perfect out of the box. Therefore when they receive a cube such as a V5 and it takes some effort to get it into the best possible condition (and by effort I mean "a few solves" as quoted directly from the thread I cited), people immediately come on here and complain that they are bitterly disappointed. These people appear to have absolutely no idea how good the cube they are handling really is. Obviously it's not perfect, but it's good enough with some use to get WR times that could not be achieved on any other cube. Therefore I would really like it if newcomers were to try out some of the other types of cubes beforehand so that they can truly understand that what they have is a gift and not a burden.



That's a lot better, even if you completely changed your story.


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## aronpm (Mar 13, 2011)

u mad bro?


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## DavidWoner (Mar 13, 2011)

crashdummy001 said:


> Now that's a flat lie. "put up with *stupid threads* that receive a string of *stupid replies*." You use such adjectives, and you claim that you're not mad? Then you're mental.



For someone who goes on so much about understanding English properly, you apparently don't understand that calling things stupid does not imply anger. Irritation maybe, but that's hardly the same thing. You are also taking this thread (which is obviously a joke) way too seriously and are making yourself look like a jackass.

On an unrelated note, having 4 accounts is against the rules.


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## miniGOINGS (Mar 13, 2011)

jms_gears1 said:


> MINIUBACK?


 
YESIAM!

I think that cubers in general should worry less about what cubes they are using, but that is probably a little hypocritical...


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## Dene (Mar 13, 2011)

crashdummy001: Well, instead of responding to all your points directly I will just leave it up to the members of this forum to decide who they think is "in the right" here. If you really would like me to respond to a particular point feel free to specify. 

I'll just say one thing. You don't know me personally so you wouldn't be expected to know, but I will assure you that I never get mad. I am not an angry person; I literally do not have it in me to get mad. It appears that the reason you think I was mad is because you seem to think that I was making a serious proposal in this thread but that is clearly not the case; it was obviously somewhat of a joke (although I was making a serious point behind it, as I later made clearer).

It is pretty obvious to me that you misunderstood what I was saying (probably not helped by all the other people that also misunderstood) and then made a ragepost type reply (NOTE: I am not implying that you were angry; it is possible to flame/rage/rant without actually being angry) and now that you have been exposed you feel like you have been backed into a corner and the natural reaction is to "lash out". It is a shame that you aren't smart enough to respond in a way that exposes me to look like a fool. Then again as I say that I'm not certain that would have been possible to do (because I am so damn smart ohhhhh yeaaaaaa).


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## EricReese (Mar 13, 2011)

DavidWoner said:


> For someone who goes on so much about understanding English properly, you apparently don't understand that calling things stupid does not imply anger. Irritation maybe, but that's hardly the same thing. You are also taking this thread (which is obviously a joke) way too seriously and are making yourself look like a jackass.
> 
> On an unrelated note, having 4 accounts is against the rules.



**mm yea I agree, agree, yep definately is way overreacting like a child..wait..LOLOLOL**


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## aridus (Mar 14, 2011)

I understand what Dene is saying now. 

I comprehend it, even empathize with it, but I must say that some people simply have different world views.

To me, something that is high quality requires no extra work. To me, that means _it is good out of the box_ (unless it's a DIY, obviously, since it wouldn't be built yet) That is entirely logical. There's a difference between what something _is_, as in it _is good right now,_ and something that has _potential_ to be good if you work on it.

Again, I understand, but I'm also saying that this misunderstanding was there for a reason. I don't see how something is high quality in the general sense of the term if you have to make all the best improvements to it yourself. Perhaps next time when cubes are recommended, it should be specified that it has potential to be good _if you do extra work to it to make it be that._ 

High quality does in fact mean "I take it out of the box and it will be awesome" to a lot of people. It's the logical conclusion. You are saying what it _is_ and not what it _could be_ given <insert thing> being done to it.


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## hic0057 (Mar 14, 2011)

"Dene's threads are amusing" http://www.speedsolving.com/forum/showthread.php?17783-quot-Cross-quot-Meta-Method-for-4x4x4/page9

http://www.speedsolving.com/forum/showthread.php?23397-THE-TRUTH-ABOUT-CORNER-CUTTING


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