# Why are cubers in India so slow?



## blah (Apr 27, 2012)

Save your political-correctness/politeness remarks.

Bernett Orlando has been around since the ice age. He keeps coming in and out of retirement (I'm assuming), but he's still the fastest guy around. There are only 6 Indians with sub-15 averages, 1 with a sub-1 4x4x4 average, none with a sub-4 2x2x2 average, and the list goes on (besides, these arbitrary cut-offs aren't even close to being "fast" by today's standards). India has ~900 registered competitors and ~30 competitions so far. Seriously, what's up?

Virtually all Indians are fluent in English (at least those educated/cultured/whatever-ed enough to be speedcubing), so there's absolutely no lack of resources in terms of getting faster.

Also, this isn't about ethnic Indians. This is about citizens of India.

Has no one else noticed this? Doesn't this bug anyone? I'm genuinely curious and I would like to hear what Indians have to say about this.


----------



## Mike Hughey (Apr 27, 2012)

I have noticed very few people from India on speedsolving.com. Those who have seem to have done at least somewhat well - in particular I think of Karthik Puthraya (who's not been around much now, but when he was interested, was really pretty decent at BLD) and Nikhil Mande. I wonder if it's just associated with that - people who do well at speedsolving mostly hang out on some major forum somewhere, whether it be this one or another one. I'm guessing that maybe India doesn't have one.

Edit: I did a search on people who list a location in India with over 100 posts on speedsolving.com, and in addition to those two I mentioned above, I came up with four more:

Akash Rupela: 15.84 average
Manasij Venkatesh: 14.08 average (4.17 2x2x2 average, 1:49.84 BLD)
Rahul Kadukar: 21.44 average (4/5 multiBLD)
Akshay Rao: 23.64 average (3/3 multiBLD)

So it seems like active Indian participants on speedsolving.com are quite similar to those from other places (perhaps even a little better than average), which seems to support my hypothesis. Of course, that still doesn't explain WHY people from India don't frequent the forums as much as people from other countries.

And by the way, it's nice to see you back, blah. It's been a while.


----------



## drewsopchak (Apr 27, 2012)

Pretty good point Chester, especially when you consider the population of India.


----------



## Akash Rupela (Apr 27, 2012)

Chester, Everything, everything that you wrote has really been bugging me off badly too. I m really glad to know that other fellow cubers here care about the issue.

Firstly, there is an group of indian speedcubers on facebook, with over 550 members, and anyone who asks for help does have enough resources, As you said, Resources is not a problem (except for maybe 5% small kids who buy a fail cube from market and never bother to care about it and are unaware of our world). 
Secondly, 2-3 people have had sub 10 unofficial averages(and a guy has sub8 NL singles), but yes with the big number of cubers here, its just not acceptable for the general community.

Coming to the main point, In India, there are very less people who care about cubing that much. Everyone is busy with studies and stuff. A cube is tempting, of course, its addictive of course, but back in the mind, almost everyone will have a question "What will i get from it?". Like most people study just for a job(and parents dream bla bla), very less people do it just cuz of satisfaction. When someone is putting that much practice, he also has to know its just for his satisfaction, and not many people live upto this challenge. In my college, i have taught 20 or so people, only one of them is sub1 minute, they all say "it will waste our life(study-job life whatever)"

I m afraid, but at this rate, leaving apart a small minority, i only look ahead a decrease in the quality of cubers, with more and more coming in, but less and less willing to give the time it takes. 

Mike, Also, Ayush Kumar http://www.worldcubeassociation.org/results/p.php?i=2011kuls01, has quite many posts here, his speedsolving id is ilikecubing

Edit:No offence to anyone, just what i feel


----------



## izovire (Apr 27, 2012)

Akash Rupela said:


> Coming to the main point, In India, there are very less people who care about cubing that much. * Everyone is busy with studies and stuff.* A cube is tempting, of course, its addictive of course, but back in the mind, almost everyone will have a question "What will i get from it?". Like most people study just for a job(and parents dream bla bla), very less people do it just cuz of satisfaction. When someone is putting that much practice, he also has to know its just for his satisfaction, and not many people live upto this challenge. In my college, i have taught 20 or so people, only one of them is sub1 minute, they all say "it will waste our life(study-job life whatever)"


 
A friend of mine in HK has slowed down a lot because he's in Secondary school and he doesn't have time to cube... and his parents took away his cubes for 8 months!

I have a flag counter (it collects IP addresses from visitors) on my website and I have a lot of Indian visitors. I have also noticed that they abandon shopping carts more than any other country. I don't know why maybe it's a money issue. I don't know if it's related to the slow cubers there. Are they all buying Rubik's Brand 3x3's instead? Because (imo) they suck!


----------



## Escher (Apr 28, 2012)

Socio-political reasons. Cubing (generally) is an incredibly middle-class, pre-adult hobby, for those with far too much free time on their hands (in order to get at all fast).

This comment is obviously riddled with Western bias but I get the impression that if, in India, you have enough resources to get a good education, you really goddamn work for it.


----------



## ketchuphater999 (Apr 28, 2012)

Okay, do I count as indian if I am in india half time and in the USA half time?(well I'm indian but I don't exactly live in india)


----------



## qqwref (Apr 28, 2012)

Your WCA profile says USA. No, you don't count as Indian.

blah: I've been wondering this too. It's weird. Even China (which is similarly focused on school) has many fast cubers.


----------



## Dene (Apr 28, 2012)

Just a stab in the dark, but perhaps they are too isolated from the rest of the cubing world, and lack an internal fast figure to aim towards. I mean, over here we are isolated but we have Feliks to target, which would help explain why we have other fast cubers coming through. In Japan they have always had a fast figure to aim towards, and in China they eventually got fast figures to aim towards. Perhaps what they lack in India is one person to step up, work their ass off and get really fast, to have something to aim towards.


----------



## blakedacuber (Apr 28, 2012)

its faster than Ireland.....


----------



## qqwref (Apr 28, 2012)

India has almost 200 times as many people as Ireland, Blake... I don't think you should be worried.


----------



## blakedacuber (Apr 28, 2012)

qqwref said:


> India has almost 200 times as many people as Ireland, Blake... I don't think you should be worried.


true and it has more than 80times more 3x3 competitors


----------



## ketchuphater999 (Apr 28, 2012)

I've started teaching people in india the cube-aka all my cousins in india.


----------



## sa11297 (Apr 28, 2012)

Escher said:


> Socio-political reasons. Cubing (generally) is an incredibly middle-class, pre-adult hobby, for those with far too much free time on their hands (in order to get at all fast).
> 
> This comment is obviously riddled with Western bias but I get the impression that if, in India, you have enough resources to get a good education, you really goddamn work for it.


 I agree with this. I am Indian, but have lived in the US my whole life. My parents have moved here from India during college. My dad said that he would not have had time to do cubing, at least not past ninth grade.


----------



## rohit94 (Apr 28, 2012)

izovire said:


> A friend of mine in HK has slowed down a lot because he's in Secondary school and he doesn't have time to cube... and his parents took away his cubes for 8 months!
> 
> I have a flag counter (it collects IP addresses from visitors) on my website and I have a lot of Indian visitors. I have also noticed that they abandon shopping carts more than any other country. I don't know why maybe it's a money issue. I don't know if it's related to the slow cubers there. Are they all buying Rubik's Brand 3x3's instead? Because (imo) they suck!


 
In India, our system is different from yours in all ways. Parents have full authority over their children. If they say 'dont cube, study'(what they always do) we dont have anything left to do except for studies. In addition our education system is the most difficult one. I'll just say come to India, live our lives and then we'll see how you cube......


----------



## Bhargav777 (Apr 28, 2012)

Chester that's actually not true.. Many here cube a lot too.. But that we cannot devote as much time as all other World class cubers like you do... 
Secondly, the awareness has started coming up only in recent times.. I have been conducting some workshops in my city to boost the awareness, and I am sure, if guided in the right way, even India can have world class cubers in no time.. MaNY of us have got excellent times at home and fail at the competitions, probably because of insufficient exposure to tourneys... 
Many of us do use this forum but just to gain things, we actually don't log in and post like you people do as we already have a very big group on facebook... Since all of us are used to posting there, we do not think much of this forum.. actually, even we have a forum, but not many use that too all because all our queries are answered in the facebook group.. 
Finally, there have been about 10 to 15 people with sub-1 singles and about 4-5 with sub-1 averages in 4x4... We do have a lot of people(around 20) with sub 10 singles in 3x3 and a guy named Dharmesh Shahu ( http://worldcubeassociation.org/results/p.php?i=2011SHAH01 ) gets sub 10 averages often and has got many sub 7.5 singles.. I have even got sub 3 averages in 2x2 with official scrambles and sub 18 OH averages... Our country has been consistently getting NRs in each competition since last year (incase there's a competition, we have a NR for sure).. 
It's just the time it would take... I can promise you, we'll surely produce many more Eriks, Michals, Zanes and Hugheys within a year or two =) JUST WAIT AND WATCH =)


----------



## palash_du (Apr 28, 2012)

I am a casual cuber from India. I started cubing a few years ago. I went to sub 30 and stopped. I became interested in BLD and FMC after that.. I was very much interested in commutators and cube theory. Since the cube is a very good example of a non-abelian group. I even gave a few workshops in my institute on the cube. But I think everyone got bored of it. I stopped because I don't like learning algorithms. I tried BH for BLD. But I always had my memorization problem. So after sometime I stopped doing BLD also. those are my reasons/excuses for stopping.

The thing is to cube you need to devote time to practice to get good. I don't think anyone has that around here (at least not in my institute). There were at least 30-40 people who solved cubes when they were in their first year here. But now when the time constraints have increased. I see the cube with hardly one person in a month.

Unless the general cuber here starts devoting time to cubing (which in this country is very very hard) we will always be slow compared to you guys.

If you want to really know what is wrong and why we don't have time just compare the education system of Germany and India you will get your answer.


----------



## TimMc (Apr 28, 2012)

*Why so fast?*


```
3x3 Ao5    Sub 14  Sub 12  Sub 10  Sub 8  Competitors
-----------------------------------------------------
Australia      10       4       1      1          141
China         107      27       5      0         2655
India           3       0       0      0          893
Malaysia       23       8       2      0          314
USA           128      46       8      0         3267
```

What did China and the USA do differently to have 100+ <14 competitors?

What did Australia, China, Malaysia and USA do to have a handful of <10 competitors?

What did...

Tim.


----------



## theace (Apr 28, 2012)

Akash Rupela said:


> Chester, Everything, everything that you wrote has really been bugging me off badly too. I m really glad to know that other fellow cubers here care about the issue.
> 
> Firstly, there is an group of indian speedcubers on facebook, with over 550 members, and anyone who asks for help does have enough resources, As you said, Resources is not a problem (except for maybe 5% small kids who buy a fail cube from market and never bother to care about it and are unaware of our world).
> Secondly, 2-3 people have had sub 10 unofficial averages(and a guy has sub8 NL singles), but yes with the big number of cubers here, its just not acceptable for the general community.
> ...


Akash has covered almost all the points I would have like to make. As has been observed, several new cubers come in each year and several good ones drop out. Once prominent cubers like Varun Karandikar, Udai Singh, Sauravh Bhave (People I used to look up to) are hardly active active these days! All of them are busy with their studies or with their jobs. Several new cubers are being added to the scene every month - some serious, many not so. 

A MAJOR issue out here is parental pressure. They do not want their kids doing ANYTHING apart from studying. All that matters is "how much money will this particular skill set earn you in life" and "how well can a particular skill set help you sustain a family". Since cubing is a skill set that does not directly let you achieve either (unless you are extrordinary), it is something that is rather frowned upon as a "waste of time", "unnecessary expenditure" and "distraction from (what is considered as) life's priorities".

One of the major reasons people join the scene (temporarily) is for some or the other personal gains (usually portrayed as a boost in mental ability which will help you academically). There are VERY few people who join in simply for the love of the game. 



izovire said:


> A friend of mine in HK has slowed down a lot because he's in Secondary school and he doesn't have time to cube... and his parents took away his cubes for 8 months!
> 
> I have a flag counter (it collects IP addresses from visitors) on my website and I have a lot of Indian visitors. I have also noticed that they abandon shopping carts more than any other country. I don't know why maybe it's a money issue. I don't know if it's related to the slow cubers there. Are they all buying Rubik's Brand 3x3's instead? Because (imo) they suck!


Confiscation of cubes is a very common story here for reasons that I highlighted above. The common notion here is "If it ain't fetchin you marks, it ain't worth it". Another issue that is common is the lack of awareness of the availability of GOOD cubes. The Rubik's brand ones are VERY common out here and are marketed by a firm that has great public relations (Funskool). A problem that is more at hand (specifically in North India) is this chap from RackTheBrain, who has been consistently trying to cover up the existance of quality speedcubes to promote whatever stock he has (and that too at exorbitant prices). He basically wants to commercialize the entire sport.

A huge issue (in terms of availability) of cubes in my opinion is the RBI being an absolute b****. Indians have on too many restrictions with paypal and hence, buying cubes is a huge pain in the edge-piece . I've been trying to conbat that situation for a while - many of you must've seen the mass order unboxings on YouTube. I've opened a make-shift webstore like thing to try and make cubes more accessable (www.scmu2012.net23.net)

Due to the issues already highlighted, parents are skeptical about providing money to kids for cubes. The common comment is "why the heck do you want to spend so much on that worthless toy". Most kids save up from their daily expenses to buy cubes and it's rather hard.



Dene said:


> Just a stab in the dark, but perhaps they are too isolated from the rest of the cubing world, and lack an internal fast figure to aim towards. I mean, over here we are isolated but we have Feliks to target, which would help explain why we have other fast cubers coming through. In Japan they have always had a fast figure to aim towards, and in China they eventually got fast figures to aim towards. Perhaps what they lack in India is one person to step up, work their ass off and get really fast, to have something to aim towards.


YouTube is everywhere. Everyone knows Feliks. Though not official, Dharmesh is someone who many people use as an example. Gaurav Taneja is kinda fast too. Dharmesh has a ton of sub 8 singles, sub 9 averages and even a 5.xx single which he couldn't get on cam. It was sub WR btw... A huge attitude problem here is "I'd never be able to beat those guys. Chuck it... I ain't going to even try".



palash_du said:


> I am a casual cuber from India. I started cubing a few years ago. I went to sub 30 and stopped. I became interested in BLD and FMC after that.. I was very much interested in commutators and cube theory. Since the cube is a very good example of a non-abelian group. I even gave a few workshops in my institute on the cube. But I think everyone got bored of it. I stopped because I don't like learning algorithms. I tried BH for BLD. But I always had my memorization problem. So after sometime I stopped doing BLD also. those are my reasons/excuses for stopping.
> 
> The thing is to cube you need to devote time to practice to get good. I don't think anyone has that around here (at least not in my institute). There were at least 30-40 people who solved cubes when they were in their first year here. But now when the time constraints have increased. I see the cube with hardly one person in a month.
> 
> ...


^ +1
Personally, I've pretty much stopped not just cubing but also Music, Internet Randomness, Photoshopping, etc thanks to studies. Most of you must've noticed the sudden decline in my activity out here. I used to cube a lot in the past year but that was while travelling. Since I drive now, I cannot cube at all. My course structure is such that I hardly am at home. Thanks to research, cubing just doesn't seem likely in the rest of the year. However, I do intend to teach as many people as possible and try and support the entire scene here in India.

In my opinion, what needs to change is the education system, the way people look at things and the general attitude towards competition. Also, issues that need to be addressed are those of cube avalability, improving the standards at competitions and (because of the mentality of the people out here) somewhat glamorizing the whole thing. That factor might just provide a good push.


----------



## CuberPanda (Apr 28, 2012)

Hello, I am Subhankar Panda and I am indian too. I agree with Dene Indians are isolated from the cubing world as every indians story, Become an engineer or doctor and fulfill your parents dreams. We donot get any good cubes in the country (there are funskool cubes but i would rather die than use them in competition). Educated Indians being the innocent people that we are we get easily fooled and dont have any knowledge about cyber crimes. So they get their accounts hacked et cetra. So they are a bit like reluctant to do online buying (I hope that answers your question, Bradley) And yes, DO NOT underestimate us, My friend Akash too knows some of the amazing cubers that we have. No one supports cubing in India, Parents are like "Why dont you study, what will you get by solving a cube?" and We have ONE delgate JUST ONE. People are'nt exposed to cubing here, But we are growing, One cuber at a time.


----------



## ardi4nto (Apr 28, 2012)

I visited India for 2 competitions in the beginning of 2012, Here is my point of view.

I wonder why very few competitors who routinely goes to competition. Usually the competitors just participated in 1-3 competitions then never show up anymore (take a look on their WCA IDs). Although I know some cubers who goes to competitions frequently, but they are small fraction of all Indian cubers population.

Also, the availability of good cubes, timer, silicon spray, and other cubing tools is one of the problem they have. They don't have any local cube store and they must buy it from outside India. Also, if they order large quantity of puzzles, they may face problem with the customs. In Mumbai Open 2012, no one have Stackmat Timer v2, may be because of this. This is very different from, let's say Indonesia or Malaysia. Here, I just need to contact the seller via text message or e-mail, send the money, and I received cubes two days later.

Also for the competitions, they need a lot of things to learn. Organizer needs to learn how to start and end competitors on time, estimate how many competitors they can have (in Mumbai Open 2012, there were only 2 timers with almost 80 competitors showed up), control the attitude of spectators - I saw some spectators climbed the table for watching 3x3 finals - lol. Competitors need to learn the regulation, especially how to start and stop timer properly. But, one of good side of their competitions is they offer great amount of prizes, usually they give money. Indian Open 2012 gave total 45,000 INR (~US$900) and Mumbai Open 2012 gave total 26,000 INR (~US$520). This is different from in Indonesia where we only give medals, trophies, or certificates to the winners.


----------



## amay saxena (Apr 28, 2012)

i totally agree with subhankar and the views posted earlier about parents' attitudes. but this is slowly changing. for example my parents are very supportive of my cubing and say that whatever you do, strive for perfection and always allow me to buy speedcubes off the net. i am 13 and there are people in my class who, even in the eighth grade are of the mentality that anything that is not improving their marks, is a total waste of time. but there are others who actively practise cubing and are supported by their parents for this. alot of my freinds at school including me practise a lot, average sub 25, and fare well enough in academics as well.
so this attitude is definitely decreasing among modern families, where parents are not scared of online shopping and know that somethings are done purely out of personal satisfaction and not just for "life's priorities" and they accept it that way.


----------



## jonlin (Apr 28, 2012)

qqwref said:


> Your WCA profile says USA. No, you don't count as Indian.
> 
> blah: I've been wondering this too. It's weird. Even China (which is similarly focused on school) has many fast cubers.


 
I've seen china for a time(I'm chinese)and my grandpa even has studies for me to do during the summer. The main difference between China and India is that in China, you have at least some free time on our hands during the day, if you can find it, there are a lot of college students who can go outside occasionally and play basketball. Why not the same for cubing?


----------



## TimMc (Apr 28, 2012)

*Reasons?*

I've just quickly read over the thread again for a list of reasons:


Parents discourage cubing because they don't see how it contributes toward a career and appears to be a distraction from studying.
There isn't enough equipment for competitions.
Competitors aren't familiar with the WCA regulations or the use of timers.
Competitions don't seem like a big deal.
It's difficult to get good cubes.

Are there any other reasons?

The above reasons apply to Australia too and I'd imagine that competitors in other countries have also experienced one of the above. It sounds like main thing that deters people from cubing in India is their parents...

1. There needs to be a balance between cubing, study and work. Try to agree upon boundaries of each activity, if your parents are willing, and avoid compromising work/study by cubing too much.

2. It seems like a bad idea to have a competition with 80 competitors and 2 timers. Try to raise some funds to get at least 6-10 Competition Timers.

3. Holding some workshops and unofficial-competitions might be a good way to ensure that competitors are familiar with the regulations. If competitors can't attend workshops, meetups, or unofficial-competitions then at least try to allocate some time at the start of the competition to allow competitors to practice using the timers and hold some kind of demonstration. Otherwise, let them learnt hard way and enforce the regulations.

4. It sounds like the prizes have been fairly good in past competitions. Sponsorship might help but don't let them control it... Do competitions need banners, judges with uniform (i.e. custom shirts), cube tables (or nicely presented tables), an MC to announce events, a projector or TV for live results?

5. If there's a will, there's a way.

Tim.


----------



## Akash Rupela (Apr 28, 2012)

I made my mom sit and read this entire thread ,here are her views- 
First, she said, surely money is a problem, cubes are very costly, if it was not for my stubbornness to buy cubes at any cost, she would not have let me buy such costly cubes(i dont see how something costing 1-2% of their monthly salary is costly).
Next, its not like cricket here that everyone can involve in. Only educated, brainy (bad image in mind of people) people do cubing. And if someone is brainy, I or any parent will naturally expect the brainy kid to not waste his life in cubing, he should rather study as with that brain he can get a good job. 
Next, its just not a healthy sport, its not a recognised sport like cricket or football that i can proudly say my son is good at, its just a brain teasing game, and it just gives tension and tension.
Next, she said, suppose you are going to a competition, there are 15-16 average guys winning it. So if you go next year too to the same competition, the same people will win it, unless you try like really hard (the mentality responsible for slow cubers) , and even if you beat them and do it in 14 seconds, then what? What do you get ? 1-2 wasted years of your life? 

The sadder part is i dont see a solution to this, Some people may say India is rising at stuff, surely some great people are doing their part, but the general scene in India is very bad , its at the parental and education system level, and we kids cant do much about it (i believe)


----------



## qqwref (Apr 28, 2012)

Akash Rupela said:


> First, she said, surely money is a problem, cubes are very costly


You can get a good cube from China for less than $10, plus shipping. And you only really need one or two a year, plus under $5 of lube. Unless you want to collect cubes or buy expensive stuff like stackmats and custom puzzles, it's actually not very expensive.



Akash Rupela said:


> Only educated, brainy (bad image in mind of people) people do cubing. And if someone is brainy, I or any parent will naturally expect the brainy kid to not waste his life in cubing, he should rather study as with that brain he can get a good job.


Maybe this is a difference in culture, but in the USA we expect that people will have interests other than school. When you apply to get into a good university or a good job, they do want good grades (up to a point, they understand that getting 100% does not mean you are smarter than someone who gets 98%), but they also want people to be well-rounded. That is, a good applicant will have hobbies outside of school, such as being interested in art or sports or something else. I've even heard of cubing skills helping people get into good schools. So we don't think it's useful to spend all of your time studying, because it will just lead to people who are only good at memorizing things and reciting them back. And in my experience a smart person won't need to spend all of their time on school to get good grades anyway. I do pretty well at a good college and I've got plenty of time for cubing and other hobbies.



Akash Rupela said:


> Next, its just not a healthy sport, its not a recognised sport like cricket or football that i can proudly say my son is good at, its just a brain teasing game, and it just gives tension and tension.
> Next, she said, suppose you are going to a competition, there are 15-16 average guys winning it. So if you go next year too to the same competition, the same people will win it, unless you try like really hard (the mentality responsible for slow cubers) , and even if you beat them and do it in 14 seconds, then what? What do you get ? 1-2 wasted years of your life?


I guess nobody in India does things for fun/enjoyment? Life must be very boring there


----------



## CuberPanda (Apr 28, 2012)

TimMc said:


> I've just quickly read over the thread again for a list of reasons:
> 
> 
> Parents discourage cubing because they don't see how it contributes toward a career and appears to be a distraction from studying.
> ...


 I agree. But if you see, Australia is not same as india. You guys have Feliks, Somewhat like an Idol for cubing. he comes on tv on all quiz competitions and i beleive you have a cubing organisation. In india, You have to study, You're Ph.D earns you respect here, not holding a world record, And yes, We do have less competitions and that is solely because of the NERDY tags my fellow countrymen have given the game, I do agree with Akash, there is no physical movement here, So people are like, your moving youre fingers only, you can do that while writing too, NOW STUDY!! Maybe I am exgarrating for some people and for some people i am not like I, however am one of the lucky ones whose parents support their cubing, But at the end of the day, I always have to think where i will find time for cubing the next day.


----------



## rishidoshi (Apr 28, 2012)

only 1 wca delegate here.


----------



## yoinneroid (Apr 28, 2012)

qqwref said:


> I guess nobody in India does things for fun/enjoyment? Life must be very boring there



This keeps bugging in my mind everytime i read the reasoning from the indian cubers

Also, does parents there can't understand the feeling of accomplishing something?


----------



## antoineccantin (Apr 28, 2012)

rishidoshi said:


> only 1 wca delegate here.


 
Same for Canada, and many other countries.


----------



## kashyap7x (Apr 28, 2012)

Competitions here are really few in number, and only one or two repeat every year. Usually have to leave the city for a competition, and that's something parents don't allow.
About cubes, almost my whole class can solve a cube, but in general Indians aren't into online payment and stuff, we hardly have paypal, parents hesitant to use credit cards except on ultra-trusted sites (Chinese stuff doesn't come under this unfortunately). That leaves a lot of us with a makeshift cube, no proper speedcube. We have huge problems with both customs and our crappy postal system. Also everything puzzle related including lubes, stickers, timers and stuff have to come from outside, we don't have much here.
Also, like it's being said, most parents think of it as a waste of time. My mom doesn't mind me practicing football 4 hours a day, but as soon as I get my cube she tells me to stop that and study something. It's mostly because I wasted a lot of time cubing in my first month or so. A regular statement - 'You aren't going to get anything doing that now, If you get a good job then you can cube for the rest of your life and noone's going to question you.'
Not only the prevalent system (education and stuff) but the whole generation kind of discourages cubing. This generation of youth though are much better and I'm guessing cubing will improve by the time the next one comes, there should be some seriously fast competitors by then.
Again, everything is just my opinion. I really want to know what everyone else thinks.


----------



## jeff081692 (Apr 28, 2012)

Akash Rupela said:


> and even if you beat them and do it in 14 seconds, then what? What do you get ? 1-2 wasted years of your life?


 
This I think is the biggest problem. I just took a class that studies leisure and there are basically three mentalities to it. Leisure as free time, leisure as recreational activity, and leisure as state of mind. For some people when they think of leisure as free time it is something not productive and wasteful. So in a sense because cubing does not do anything to "help society" or is not recognized as a major sport, means that it is as useless as watching tv all day. 
However, leisure as state of mind is the best way to interpret what we do for leisure because it is personal to the individual so to us it is not wasting 1-2 years of our life at all because that is what we want to do with our time. 
But since there are cultures that don't care as much about that and want you to spend almost all your time either on studies or other skills that are good for a job, it is very difficult to pursue your true interests sometimes rather than live the life that your parents are trying to mold you into. 
I guess because India as a culture seems to belittle activities such as cubing many potential cubers would see the cube and think they don't have enough time to get involved with that because their free time might be more limited than other countries.


----------



## Photon (Apr 28, 2012)

There's a damn lot said here, I'll sum up, or add my perspective. Indian, Chennai here btw.

1. Cost of cubes. $10 for a cube. Fine, but in Indian money, that's almost 500 bucks, more than that definitely. No parent, at least not middle-class ones like mine, are willing to indulge in that. 

2. Socio-economic factors. The most common question my parents ask is, "Where will this get you?" It's always "Go study". Sure, I waste quite a lot of time and everything, but this is perennial. 

I'd also grump about my city not having any competitions this year. Chennai is one of the biggest cities, and if you talk of the 1 billion people and everything, then this place could do with one comp. right? Cube meet-ups do happen though, we had one here last month. 

At the end of it, I think a lot is about mindset, and financial issues. Chinese websites are NOT trusted here, and that is another big stumbling block. Awareness is rising though. There ARE a handful of people doing sub-10s. We'll get there soon


----------



## theace (Apr 28, 2012)

qqwref said:


> You can get a good cube from China for less than $10, plus shipping. And you only really need one or two a year, plus under $5 of lube. Unless you want to collect cubes or buy expensive stuff like stackmats and custom puzzles, it's actually not very expensive.
> 
> 
> Maybe this is a difference in culture, but in the USA we expect that people will have interests other than school. When you apply to get into a good university or a good job, they do want good grades (up to a point, they understand that getting 100% does not mean you are smarter than someone who gets 98%), but they also want people to be well-rounded. That is, a good applicant will have hobbies outside of school, such as being interested in art or sports or something else. I've even heard of cubing skills helping people get into good schools. So we don't think it's useful to spend all of your time studying, because it will just lead to people who are only good at memorizing things and reciting them back. And in my experience a smart person won't need to spend all of their time on school to get good grades anyway. I do pretty well at a good college and I've got plenty of time for cubing and other hobbies.
> ...


There is a HUGE cultural difference here, yes. The entire education system is based on memorizing and regurgitating. At a college interview, a sub 6 solve won't do anything. But a 98% score on your marksheet (which is the result of about a few weeks of memorization) will certainly get you in. Here, you are judged not by the diversity of skill sets you have, but by the percent marks you score in exams. As a child, life is not only boring, but also extremely stressful. I'm pretty sure that most kids here are dying to get out of the house so that they can do things THEIR way.



CuberPanda said:


> I agree. But if you see, Australia is not same as india. You guys have Feliks, Somewhat like an Idol for cubing. he comes on tv on all quiz competitions and i beleive you have a cubing organisation. In india, You have to study, You're Ph.D earns you respect here, not holding a world record, And yes, We do have less competitions and that is solely because of the NERDY tags my fellow countrymen have given the game, I do agree with Akash, there is no physical movement here, So people are like, your moving youre fingers only, you can do that while writing too, NOW STUDY!! Maybe I am exgarrating for some people and for some people i am not like I, however am one of the lucky ones whose parents support their cubing, But at the end of the day, I always have to think where i will find time for cubing the next day.


If Feliks was Indian, the story would have probably been different here. If cubing was as glamorized here as is in Australia (the frequency with which he has appeared on TV, the reception he has got), parents would have been more keen to support their kids in cubing. Again, this is more about "my child is better than yours". That is the general mentality here. There are very fortunate outliers, though - My mom and Amey's mom are good examples.


rishidoshi said:


> only 1 wca delegate here.


Yes. And the delegate's expense itself is about INR 30k+ which is about $570+ Sponsorships are not always possible and having a tournament is an expensive affair. A standalone tournament like SCMU2011 on an average would cost up to INR 80,000 or more (USD 1 = INR 52 something)


yoinneroid said:


> This keeps bugging in my mind everytime i read the reasoning from the indian cubers
> 
> Also, does parents there can't understand the feeling of accomplishing something?


The only accomplisments that count in the view of most parents are a) academic b) PHYSICAL sports with good public reception c) Anything that fetches money and secures careers.


----------



## palash_du (Apr 28, 2012)

qqwref said:


> I guess nobody in India does things for fun/enjoyment? Life must be very boring there


 
Doing things just for fun gets you labelled as a rebel over here. Each and every single thing that matters is linked to cut throat competition. Be it studies, enjoyment, jobs, anything at all.

When students in Kindergarten give exams and every single parent wants his child to be the top of class and pressurises for it this is what happens.


----------



## blah (Apr 28, 2012)

Once again, this *isn't* about your color or where your parents are from or where your cousins live or any other ties you have with the big I. Your opinion isn't worth anyone's time if it's some monumental thesis about the correlation between ethnicity and speedcubing ability.

This is about the socio-political/cultural reasons for Indian cubers being slow. If you're brown but are *not* subject to the same socio-political/cultural conditions as the cubers in India, don't say anything, because any remark you make will be racist. If you *are* subject to the same conditions and/or have experienced similar conditions and/or have witnessed the Indian cubing scene first-hand, then your input is as valuable as any, regardless of the color of your skin.

Is it really *impossible* to get good grades (in order to secure a job blah blah blah) and be a good speedcuber at the same time? With all the people you have, surely someone has the brains to accomplish this?

I honestly think it's about what someone said earlier: no one seems to be able to do anything he or she wants just for the love of it, be it due to external pressure or lack of internal motivation. There are so many things to blame for not getting into a good school or getting a decent job -- I just don't imagine cubing being very high on that list, even if you're world class. I'm pretty sure the rest of the world gets it: cubing can't feed you. But can't it make you happy? Or is there some perverted distortion to the notion of happiness that you can't feel happy doing something you enjoy because you enjoy it too much and/or it doesn't contribute to the greater good? There have been many world-class cubers who've disappeared because of school or work, but nothing ever stopped them from being world-class in the first place. Some of them come back; other's don't. Regardless, it was fun for the rest of us (and certainly for them) while it lasted.

Bernett Orlando, at his peak, used to be on par with Feliks in comparison with the rest of the world, but no one ever caught up, so I don't think it's the lack of a fast cuber that's holding India back.

Edit: No one sits down in front of a computer one fine day and says to himself/herself, "I'm going to dedicate the next two years of my life to being a world-class speedcuber." First of all, no one knows what "world-class" means in a year from now. Secondly, people sit down in front of a computer to cube because they're addicted to it. In all honesty, it doesn't take complete focus and unwavering dedication to be sub-15 these days (for teenagers). Most of us probably need to put in conscious effort to be sub-10, but being "decently fast" happens naturally/as a simple consequence of addiction, ask anyone.


----------



## mande (Apr 28, 2012)

In India, 10th and 12th grade exams are a huge thing...and cubing is impossible in both of these years (even most of the 11th grade requires us to study for entrance exams to colleges for our bachelors degree). After that, once you start your undergrad, there is an enormous pressure (from family and college as well) to do well. I myself completed my undergrad in a place which had an average class size of 10 students (my batch started with 11, and ended with 10 after 1 guy got kicked out), and if you failed in even 1 course, you would be chucked out of college (also the college had the reputation of chucking out at least 1 guy per batch). After that, people who take up jobs have no time at all to cube. People who continue studies (like me) get additional pressure piled up on them, and also find almost no time to cube.

I saw some posts about Bernett...he is currently in his 11th (or 12th, I forget) grade, and studying hard for his entrance exams, due to which he doesn't get time to cube...
Distances in India are huge...for me, going to Indian Open by train would take like 36 hours, which I cannot afford to waste because of my classes. Above that, there is only 1 delegate because of which we have only a limited number of competitions which we can attend.
I guess my main point is that the education system in India does not permit 1 to cube much...


----------



## theace (Apr 29, 2012)

blah said:


> is there some perverted distortion to the notion of happiness that you can't feel happy doing something you enjoy because you enjoy it too much and/or it doesn't contribute to the greater good?


More like you aren't allowed to.



blah said:


> There have been many world-class cubers who've disappeared because of school or work, but nothing ever stopped them from being world-class in the first place. In all honesty, it doesn't take complete focus and unwavering dedication to be sub-15 these days (for teenagers). Most of us probably need to put in conscious effort to be sub-10, but being "decently fast" happens naturally/as a simple consequence of addiction, ask anyone.


Rather impossible when you have your entire cube collection locked away for an entire year (10th and 12, as Mande said) isn't it? That's the harsh truth bro. If your kids don't obey, you take away the luxuries and make em'...


----------



## Shakil (Apr 29, 2012)

Hi

Im from India.... And Ive a lot of things to say.........
1) We have only 1 delegate here in India... And remember India is a big country... 
2) Every year we hardly have 4 tourneys here. And some of them are in the north and some of them in the south. And our parents don't really allow us to travel alone....
3) In other countries... cubes like 2x2, 4x4 and 5x5 are sold in stores. So people there are aware that there are many types of cubes.. But sadly people here know about the 3x3 only.
4) And pls note that our parents dont let us spend on cubes and lubes. I've always wanted the Lubix lube but my parents don't allow me getting one. Even the shipping of great cube stores like Icubemart and speedcubeshop costs like $6.
5)The Media and press in other countries atleast sumwhat make people aware about cubing like if theres a new NR or so. But here they dont care a F*** bout cubing


----------



## palash_du (Apr 29, 2012)

blah said:


> No one sits down in front of a computer one fine day and says to himself/herself, "I'm going to dedicate the next two years of my life to being a world-class speedcuber." First of all, no one knows what "world-class" means in a year from now. Secondly, people sit down in front of a computer to cube because they're addicted to it. In all honesty, it doesn't take complete focus and unwavering dedication to be sub-15 these days (for teenagers). Most of us probably need to put in conscious effort to be sub-10, but being "decently fast" happens naturally/as a simple consequence of addiction, ask anyone.


 
Consider this routine you go to a college your bus takes you to the college at 7:00 A.M. in the morning. The college goes on till 5:00 P.M.. During this time you get a break of one hour for lunch. The time for speedcubing is 2 hours in the bus and in the recess. Then you come back at around 6:00 P.M. and you have to study a bit for the next day have your lunch etc. Sometimes you can cube for a few hours again. So the average input you can give on a weekday is 2.5-3 hours. That wasn't enough for me. So I cubed during classes(even during tests). This is when you get into college. When you are in 10th or 12th forget about even touching a cube.

This is when you are at the prime of your addiction. Otherwise you will be doing other things in the free time.

Maybe this much free time is enough for cubing. But I don't think so. That I think is the average Indian's problem of why he does not get fast. To get to sub 15 an average person needs atleast 400-500 hours of practice. That much addiction is hard to find for such a non-academic, non-paying, high-priced and nerdy activity with scarce competitions.

Edit: This summer I really wanted to go to a competition but no even one is being held in all over India. Around my place there are no meets also.


----------



## Akash Rupela (Apr 29, 2012)

I dont think 400-500 hours is anywhere near to what it takes for sub15 . I m pretty sure it takes something in 4 digits for an average person. It took me almost an year(like 10-11 months) to be sub15. And i have literally practiced 4-5 hours a day on an average


----------



## palash_du (Apr 30, 2012)

Akash Rupela said:


> I dont think 400-500 hours is anywhere near to what it takes for sub15 . I m pretty sure it takes something in 4 digits for an average person. It took me almost an year(like 10-11 months) to be sub15. And i have literally practiced 4-5 hours a day on an average


 
there was an atleast before 400-500


----------



## Florian (Apr 30, 2012)

Akash Rupela said:


> I dont think 400-500 hours is anywhere near to what it takes for sub15 . I m pretty sure it takes something in 4 digits for an average person. It took me almost an year(like 10-11 months) to be sub15. And i have literally practiced 4-5 hours a day on an average


 
more than 1000 hours for sub-15? Way less man, what are you wasting your practice-time with?
400is pretty accurate in my case. 1.5*30*9=405 until official sub-15 average.


----------



## ottozing (Apr 30, 2012)

i think i need to remind you guys that everyone improves at their OWN pace.


----------



## Cheese11 (Apr 30, 2012)

Florian said:


> more than 1000 hours for sub-15? Way less man, what are you wasting your practice-time with?
> 400is pretty accurate in my case. 1.5*30*9=405 until official sub-15 average.


 
I've been going at it for 4 years and I'm still not sub 15. Soo...


----------



## theace (May 2, 2012)

THIS is one of the most annoying issues out here!


----------



## blah (May 3, 2012)

jeez indian moms ><


----------



## Photon (May 4, 2012)

*parents. From what I've seen, dads tend to be more set against cubing than moms. Bleh.


----------



## kottcuber (Aug 17, 2013)

I am an Indian. I know a lot of cubers from my locality (about 45 people who have an average of 20 to 25). Its just that they don't participate in competitions and there aren't any competitions held in my locality.


----------



## Lchu613 (Aug 17, 2013)

Thread bumping is in style 
My guess would be that they just don't go on the forum or participate in comps?


----------



## kunparekh18 (Aug 18, 2013)

Lchu613 said:


> Thread bumping is in style
> My guess would be that they just don't go on the forum or participate in comps?



Yes because coming on the forums makes you faster :/ Seriously, there is a facebook group with 1100+ members on it, way more than the active population here on the forum I guess

People here find less time to practice, that is all


----------



## cubesonfire (Aug 19, 2013)

i know at least 20 cubers at school. around 13 think its a waste of time and only 3 have been to competitions. out of the remaining 4, 2 want to go to a comp, and 2 use it just to show off. does this explain it? we indians are not THAT enthusiastic when it comes to cubing. ask them to come play a game of cricket, and lo! the ground becomes overpopulated. my dad doesnt like me cubing, and my mom is neutral. only after i won some local comps and won the cube comp at school they were urged to buy me better or more cubes.
btw, i'm from a middle class family.
i find around 1-2 hours of cubing each day, and top my grade ( only in boys though ). i study around 2 hours a day,with the remaining time either on the web or playing some sport. and i'm active on the forum. ( part of it is because i am a part of the it club at school, and this allows you to use the internet for some time,like during recess.)
all the breaks i take are usually on the forum or playing miscrits.


----------



## Mike Hughey (Aug 19, 2013)

It is still an interesting question, but it has improved a lot in the past year.

From Chester's original post:


> There are only 6 Indians with sub-15 averages, 1 with a sub-1 4x4x4 average, none with a sub-4 2x2x2 average



Now there are 26 with sub-15 averages, 11 with sub-1 4x4x4 averages, 4 with sub-4 2x2x2 averages. Still not great considering the size of the country, but still a pretty dramatic improvement in 15 months.


----------



## Lchu613 (Aug 19, 2013)

kunparekh18 said:


> Yes because coming on the forums makes you faster :/ Seriously, there is a facebook group with 1100+ members on it, way more than the active population here on the forum I guess
> 
> People here find less time to practice, that is all


What I meant is that we don't know about all the fast Indian cubers because they mostly aren't here or at competitions that we know of.


----------



## uberCuber (Aug 19, 2013)

After reading through most of the posts in this thread, exactly one thought comes to mind: there is no way it is mentally healthy to devote 16 hours a day to studies.


----------



## Akash Rupela (Aug 19, 2013)

Lchu613 said:


> What I meant is that we don't know about all the fast Indian cubers because they mostly aren't here or at competitions that we know of.


Nothing like that, even if someone is sub20, almost always the community knows of it either through comps or facebook.

I dont see why this was bumped, but it goes on to show that we have come a good way in the past 1.5 years. I wont say the general cubing quality has improved. With the way how doing something just for the love of it is highly discouraged/demotivated by the society, the average cuber still stands very slow. As there will be more cubers, and more older cubers dont quit, the amount of people having faster times will shoot up too obviously. At this rate, average cuber wont improve much, a very big lot of participants will keep coming and almost never attending more than 1 competition after solves around 1 minute mark(or worse). Some people will take it to another level and would enter very respectable world ranks within 2-3 years 

Also, saying stuff like nobody likes to do what they love just for love of it without any benefits is wrong? A lot of cubers love it, but against the pressure of society and parents, most of them cant stand through, its tough .


----------



## cubesonfire (Aug 21, 2013)

Hey akash., I agree with you. Take yourself and others like dharmesh, ayush, nikhil, , bhargav and others. If you don't stop cubing, maybe you could hold wrs someday. And new cubers keep coming round so we have a good future.


----------



## Faraz Arif (Dec 24, 2013)

*Hi*

Dear Akash Rupela,
This is Faraz Arif. I'm an Indian speedcuber, in 9th grade, St. Stephen's School, Chandigarh. I recently hit 34.22 secs, and I'm looking forward to reach sub 20 in about 2 months. Of course, even I am unable to give more than 30 minutes to cubing in a day, coz I have to study a lot + I've got board examinations next year. I've been speedcubing for 4 months, and it feels great to be on Speedsolving.com. Due to scheduling problems, I won't be coming for SCMU 2014, but I will definitely come in Feb to Delhi, St. Stephen's College for the MathSoc Championship. I hope to meet you. As far as Blah is concerned, he shall slowly see more upcoming speedcubers like myself in a few months.


----------



## DAoliHVAR (Dec 24, 2013)

Akash Rupela said:


> they all say "it will waste our life(study-job life whatever)"



this right here makes me almost mad.
don't get me wrong,im a descent student and stuff like that,but whats the point of living if you don't have any joy in it?
is that even life?
speedcubing makes me happy,out of so many hours in the week i can set apart 3-4 for that.
ofcourse india is a whole different place,but from what i've read in this thread so far it seems like some sort of dystopia where they make kids into money making robots or smth


----------



## kunparekh18 (Dec 25, 2013)

DAoliHVAR said:


> this right here makes me almost mad.
> don't get me wrong,im a descent student and stuff like that,but whats the point of living if you don't have any joy in it?
> is that even life?
> speedcubing makes me happy,out of so many hours in the week i can set apart 3-4 for that.
> ofcourse india is a whole different place,but from what i've read in this thread so far it seems like some sort of dystopia where they make kids into money making robots or smth



That was the mentality of parents in the last to last generation haha. It isn't so now.


----------



## Akash Rupela (Dec 25, 2013)

Faraz Arif said:


> Dear Akash Rupela, I will definitely come in Feb to Delhi, St. Stephen's College for the MathSoc Championship. I hope to meet you.


Great to know, see you too 



DAoliHVAR said:


> this right here makes me almost mad.
> don't get me wrong,im a descent student and stuff like that,but whats the point of living if you don't have any joy in it?
> is that even life?
> speedcubing makes me happy,out of so many hours in the week i can set apart 3-4 for that.
> ofcourse india is a whole different place,but from what i've read in this thread so far it seems like some sort of dystopia where they make kids into money making robots or smth



Of course i agree with you, there is not much point if you dont enjoy what you do but a majority(i feel better my parents are good with it) of parents here wont agree on that. Its just bad crowd mentality. Still, good thing is we are making steady progress, our records are much better than those stated in first post of the thread


----------



## aashritspidey (Jan 4, 2014)

http://www.speedsolving.com/forum/showthread.php?45702-Bhargav-Narasimhan-9-52-OH-single-AsR
Lets see anyone say something now..


----------

