# Why I am now Color Netural



## teller (Oct 10, 2011)

Cubers adopt a new algorithm or even a whole new system from time to time, but few of us can stomach the setback that color neutral imposes on our familiar and comfortable speedsolve. It wrecks it, and it doesn't get better for a quite a while, and for what? That period of discomfort is why people so often never stick with a diet or exercise regimen. It's why I have had such a hard time quitting smoking.

The neurons in your brain are a lot like roads. If a road is frequently traveled, it widens and becomes a cleared path, the path of least resistance. If it is not used, brush grows over and in some places it does not even visibly connect anymore. A well traveled road is like a familiar algorithm--you don't even have to think about it anymore--your brain knows the way.

At the bowling alley or on the golf course as in cubing, practice can only get you so far before you need to make some upgrades, and this means uncomfortable change. Learning a new golf swing isn't something you master in a single day; after doing things a certain way for years, change feels awkward and unfamiliar, and if you were placed in a tournament you would likely be wise to fall back on your old dependable ways. But if you really want to go to the next level, you'd get back into training mode and eat the discomfort until it became comfortable.

I hated L turns, but I forced myself to eat them. It took a long time, but now they're a fun variation. Now I'm forcing the issue with the S slice. Backhand flicks felt weird for the longest time, but now they are standard and my options during F2L have expanded greatly. One-handed cubing is the most awkward, horrible thing when you first try it, but once you get over that wall, it's fine.

Color neutral was the worst, and it taunted me. Only by doing it could I make it familiar and comfortable, so I just ate the extra 5-10 seconds and figured it would come up to par eventually, and it almost has.

You don't have to be born color-neutral. You just have to get over the wall.

And it doesn't just yield a great cross every solve--it also juices your recognition. Your brain was only looking for a certain set of colors before, and now it's looking for something different. Those neurons are NEW, and the more connections you make, the quicker and more completely you can grasp a situation. A busy town has lots of roads leading to it and leaving from it, like an F2L pair. It's pure win.

It's worth it. I think Rowe would agree.


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## ianography (Oct 10, 2011)

Okay, I think this has now inspired me to become color neutral.  But how should I go about making this drastic change?


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## Hershey (Oct 10, 2011)

Just force yourself to be color neutral, try to find crosses that are easier to make.


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## teller (Oct 10, 2011)

ianography said:


> Okay, I think this has now inspired me to become color neutral.  But how should I go about making this drastic change?


 
You dive into the deep end and just swear off your primary color for a month during practice. Or, you can adopt just ONE new color and get to know it's environment.

I did the latter, and then I learned a second new color, and then I finally dove into the deep end because there were wasn't much left.

Pick your poison. The key is to expose your brain to it. Treat it like a brand new puzzle, a fun diversion with a pot of gold at the end.


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## RNewms27 (Oct 10, 2011)

Slow solves with every color cross until they reach about the same recognition imo.


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## teller (Oct 10, 2011)

RNewms27 said:


> Slow solves with every color cross until they reach about the same recognition imo.


 
Yes. Forget the timer for awhile and just learn.


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## TheZenith27 (Oct 10, 2011)

This is profound. I'll practice color neutral now.


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## Vinny (Oct 10, 2011)

I never really switched, because I was always color neutral, but I can logically say that you should NOT avoid doing your normal cross solves if you see a nice cross. You should just be looking for the easiest cross, whether it be on your normal cross color or a different color. 

I'm not really sure how not being color neutral works, but if you rely on the fact that "if white is on bottom, then that means red is to the right of blue," I'm assuming you would just have to learn to stop relying on that during F2L. 

I'm pretty sure that maybe a week or two of practice could make somebody color neutral if they practice enough.


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## ianography (Oct 10, 2011)

teller said:


> You dive into the deep end and just swear off your primary color for a month during practice. Or, you can adopt just ONE new color and get to know it's environment.
> 
> I did the latter, and then I learned a second new color, and then I finally dove into the deep end because there were wasn't much left.
> 
> Pick your poison. The key is to expose your brain to it. Treat it like a brand new puzzle, a fun diversion with a pot of gold at the end.


 
Thanks. I've decided to do the latter too; I've just done an average of 12 with green cross that was at 22.73. I think I'm just going to do a normal average of 12 with white cross and then a green cross average every day and see how that goes


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## teller (Oct 10, 2011)

Vinny said:


> I never really switched, because I was always color neutral, but I can logically say that you should NOT avoid doing your normal cross solves if you see a nice cross. You should just be looking for the easiest cross, whether it be on your normal cross color or a different color.
> 
> I'm not really sure how not being color neutral works, but if you rely on the fact that "if white is on bottom, then that means red is to the right of blue," I'm assuming you would just have to learn to stop relying on that during F2L.
> 
> I'm pretty sure that maybe a week or two of practice could make somebody color neutral if they practice enough.


A week or two is not long enough. If it was, more people would do it.

Avoiding the familiar color is not the end game; you do want to learn to optimize. But you have 5 other colors to choose from, and that's more than enough. Avoid your primary (white usually) for a time to break out of the box. You will eventually include it again, but not at the beginning. You must learn the not-doing of white.


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## teller (Oct 10, 2011)

ianography said:


> Thanks. I've decided to do the latter too; I've just done an average of 12 with green cross that was at 22.73. I think I'm just going to do a normal average of 12 with white cross and then a green cross average every day and see how that goes


 
That's perfect. There is a difference between knowing the path, and walking the path. You are taking steps walking.


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## JyH (Oct 10, 2011)

Great read, Teller! I completely agree with what you said. I forced my friend to learn Petrus when he started cubing, and he's already color neutral (not really sure if Petrus helps with CN). I really hope this helps him out when he gets a lot faster (he averages ~50 right now).


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## teller (Oct 10, 2011)

JyH said:


> Great read, Teller! I completely agree with what you said. I forced my friend to learn Petrus when he started cubing, and he's already color neutral (not really sure if Petrus helps with CN). I really hope this helps him out when he gets a lot faster (he averages ~50 right now).


 
Wow, yes. I didn't even mention blockbuilding, but it's another first-class edge. I nudged my best student to be color neutral even though I wasn't, and he is like a fish in water with an orange cross. Good spawn!


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## Edward (Oct 10, 2011)

JyH said:


> Great read, Teller! I completely agree with what you said. I forced my friend to learn Petrus when he started cubing, and he's already color neutral (not really sure if Petrus helps with CN). I really hope this helps him out when he gets a lot faster (he averages ~50 right now).


 
Lol it's the other way around. CN helps Petrus A LOT, so it was probably just natural he went with it. 

I found it wasn't too much of a struggle for me to switch to CN. I just kind of... did it. 
(RIP Orange cross)


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## teller (Oct 10, 2011)

E


Edward said:


> Lol it's the other way around. CN helps Petrus A LOT, so it was probably just natural he went with it.
> 
> I found it wasn't too much of a struggle for me to switch to CN. I just kind of... did it.
> (RIP Orange cross)


 
Edward! You were one of the people who encouraged me to take the leap. I did!


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## bwronski (Oct 10, 2011)

teller said:


> Yes. Forget the timer for awhile and just learn.


 
that is the best thing to do with the cube, you can learn and practice simple actions that grow and develop into your own skills and styles


@topic: I just started doing other colored cross solves, I find it really easy to do color neutral after deciding to switch..its nothing that people make it out to be. But with roux i am only oposite block neutral, I think full CN would be too much to process.


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## teller (Oct 10, 2011)

bwronski said:


> that is the best thing to do with the cube, you can learn and practice simple actions that grow and develop into your own skills and styles
> 
> 
> @topic: I just started doing other colored cross solves, I find it really easy to do color neutral after deciding to switch..its nothing that people make it out to be. But with roux i am only oposite block neutral, I think full CN would be too much to process.


 
You! I am watching you! Eat more, harder! Faster, more! With red cross!


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## CRO (Oct 10, 2011)

@teller

What was your avg when you switched?


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## teller (Oct 10, 2011)

CRO said:


> @teller
> 
> What was your avg when you switched?


 
About 17.xx. Now I have to race to sub-20 again!


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## DaKrazedKyubizt (Oct 10, 2011)

I tried switching to color neutrality and was, for the most part, successful. If I'm actually focusing on neutrality, my averages are pretty close to my usual averages. I used to be w/y semi-color neutral, so sometimes, I'm still in the habit of looking immediately for white or yellow if I'm not paying attention, but you're right, when I remember when I switch to color neutrality, all of the sudden my brain started doing trippy things, and I was improvising all kinds of weird little solving techniques on the spot.


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## Kirjava (Oct 10, 2011)

teller said:


> About 17.xx. Now I have to race to sub-20 again!


 
so you're not actually colour neutral yet


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## teller (Oct 10, 2011)

Kirjava said:


> so you're not actually colour neutral yet


 
I think your definition implies recognition being nearly balanced across all colors, and you're right, I am not (yet). But why make that distinction? That's like saying you're not really doing Roux if you suck at it.


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## Kirjava (Oct 10, 2011)

teller said:


> I think your definition implies recognition being nearly balanced across all colors, and you're right, I am not (yet). But why make that distinction?


 
Because otherwise any cuber could consider themselves colour neutral.


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## teller (Oct 10, 2011)

Kirjava said:


> Because otherwise any cuber could consider themselves colour neutral.


 
I suppose so, but if there were a competition tomorrow I would not used fixed cross. And then people would think I was silly when I told them I was just pretending.

Cubers are so nit-picky about definitions.


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## Godmil (Oct 10, 2011)

I guess colour neutral could suggest 1) There is no significant speed difference between starting on different colours or 2) you are willing to choose any colour.
Teller seems to be going for the latter.

I like the idea of colour neutrality, but I'm not going to go for it. I think it would take me months to get to the speed I'm at now, and I'm not sure there is a benefit greater than just having spent that time on normal practice. (Same reason I'll never learn ZB but on a bigger scale)


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## Kirjava (Oct 10, 2011)

teller said:


> Cubers are so nit-picky about definitions.


 
Sorry if you feel so attacked, just giving my opinion on the matter.

I didn't consider myself colour neutral with CFOP until I had surpassed my dual colour averages.

Colour neutral means that using different colours doesn't affect your ability.


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## jrb (Oct 10, 2011)

Yay! Color neutrality is awesome


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## AustinReed (Oct 10, 2011)

I decided to try a color neutral average of 100 last night. I got a 19.xx. Those were the first solves trying to be color neutral. I think that it is a lot easier than I thought it would be. You just have to manually think of the "formula" for f2l pieces: Corner-cross color=edge it pairs with. I may consider switching.


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## jrb (Oct 10, 2011)

AustinReed said:


> I decided to try a color neutral average of 100 last night. I got a 19.xx.



Normal average?


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## Vinny (Oct 10, 2011)

Most people think that switching to color neutral means that you will waste too much time during inspection, too. However, after you get used to finding the best cross each time, it doesn't really waste that much time at all. I can admit, my friends who are color neutral take less inspection time, but I don't take nearly enough time to go over 15 seconds. I'm sure that while switching to color neutrality, your inspection may take a long time, but that time will eventually go down once you get more accustomed to color neutrality.


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## collinbxyz (Oct 10, 2011)

Wow, I have honestly never really needed to switch. If I remember correctly, I became color neutral when I originally learned CFOP... It just seems natural to me, and I had no idea that so many people weren't color neutral!!! 

Basically, I just look for the easiest cross, put that side on the bottom (obviously) then remember that color during F2L... Sorry if that whole statement either was so extremely obvious and worthless, or too complicate...

Color neutriality is only annoying for me during team bld when someone else is calling, and its a long cross sorta thing. Maybe ill do a vid on this somehow. Any ideas dor what I could do though? 

*sorry for spelling mistakes. This was all typed from my phone*


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## AustinReed (Oct 10, 2011)

jrb said:


> Normal average?


 
Like, low 13


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## teller (Oct 10, 2011)

@Kir Not at all. Perhaps a qualifier would helpful for either the CN-in-training or the CN-complete, but at some point in between you're really doing it comfortably and never looking back.

@AustinReed: Manual eventually becomes automatic. I don't know quite when it happened, but if I'm doing, say, a green cross, I don't think about it anymore during F2L--it's as if green was always my color and I just go. I'd like to know if you feel a spike in F2L recognition after doing this for awhile. I have a theory that complex F2L is affected more by the new connections than simple F2L and I'm interested any anecdotal evidence from people who are in the process of switching.

@collinbxyz: There is a dearth of information about cross selection. If you shoot anything, describe what you look for and why. For example, one thing I've hooked onto is any side that already has a piece in place, but I'll abandon it if the other 3 are poorly oriented.


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## antoineccantin (Oct 10, 2011)

teller said:


> Wow, yes. I didn't even mention blockbuilding, but it's another first-class edge. I nudged my best student to be color neutral even though I wasn't, and *he is like a fish in water with an orange cross.* Good spawn!


 
Me too! (That is my main cross colour)


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## Kirjava (Oct 10, 2011)

teller said:


> @Kir Not at all. Perhaps a qualifier would helpful for either the CN-in-training or the CN-complete, but at some point in between you're really doing it comfortably and never looking back.


 
I can comfortably use any method. I'm not method neutral.


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## jms_gears1 (Oct 10, 2011)

Kirjava said:


> I can comfortably use any method. I'm not method neutral.


 
Maybe the definition of colour neutrality should be brought up in the 'terms need fixing' thread.
It seems that what defines whether one is CN or not is fairly vague.


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## Kirjava (Oct 10, 2011)

Disagree. I think the definition I gave is perfectly valid.


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## jms_gears1 (Oct 10, 2011)

Kirjava said:


> Disagree. I think the definition I gave is perfectly valid.


 
I think I like godmils definition. I would say that even if you are not equally proficient with all colors, as long as you are picking what color to 'start' with based on the easiest case. Then I would consider that to be CN


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## tx789 (Oct 10, 2011)

I some how manged to go colour nearal with little practice. I go for white still but I can slove colour neutral. SOme F2L slots are still a bit iffy (before being colour neaural the hardest thing to solve quickly and the olny was F2L)


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## wontolla (Oct 10, 2011)

jms_gears1 said:


> ...as long as you are picking what color to 'start' with based on the easiest case. Then I would consider that to be CN



Every cuber can do that, and that doesn't mean we are all colour neutral.

I'm solving with a blue cross at this moment, but I'm definitely not CN.


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## yockee (Oct 10, 2011)

I've been trying to become CN for quite some time now. Usually, I just get frustrated and go back to white because it get's boring knowing that I can't look ahead and have a fast solve. The one thing that keeps me pushing at it is because I know it'll give me something new and make crosses better for me. A lot of the times, I still get a 3 sec cross, which just sucks. I only get 1-2 sec crosses when they are just plain easy. I always think back to how I first started on green cross, and stayed there for about a year. I only switched to white because when I started learning from you tube, most tutorials were using white cross. I forced myself to switch then, so I should be able to do it now. I remember it took a while then, too.


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## Vinny (Oct 10, 2011)

wontolla said:


> Every cuber can do that, and that doesn't mean we are all colour neutral.
> 
> I'm solving with a blue cross at this moment, but I'm definitely not CN.


 
But you wouldn't normally do that, because your preference is not blue. A color neutral person has no preference as to which cross to start with.


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## DavidWoner (Oct 10, 2011)

I agree with Kir about the meaning of Colour Neutral. The name implies that you are equally fast with all starting colors, and so you should be. I don't really think this is something that is up for debate, as this has always been the definition of CN.

Also this thread is not convincing at all. You say frequently traveling a road makes it wider? I've carved the Grand Canyon through white/yellow cross with hundreds of thousands of solves, you really think I should spent what will likely be more than a year practicing with other colours just to save an average of ~1 move? I think not, I have better ways to spend my time. People are still pushing the boundaries of single and dual cross-colour solving, and I have certainly not stalled.

I'm also kind of annoyed by the statement "It's worth it. I think Rowe would agree." What does Rowe know about switching from single colour to colour neutral? As far as I know he's always been CN, the only switch he made was from Petrus to CFOP. Certainly he is an expert on the benefits of being CN, but I don't think you can use him as an example to reinforce the argument for _switching_ to colour nuetral.


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## Forte (Oct 10, 2011)

Just because I insert pairs with my left hand when convenient, it doesn't mean that I'm ambidextrous lol

It's the same for colour neutrality. Just because you do the easiest cross colour, it doesn't mean that you're automatically colour neutral. If you would have got a faster time if that cross had been white, then you're probably not colour neutral


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## IamWEB (Oct 10, 2011)

You can suck at using Roux, but you are still using Roux.
If you are bad at being CN then you are not CN.

Some of you are looking at color neutrality as a style/way of solving instead of a statement regarding your abilities.
If you are working on solving with all cross colors then you're working towards color neutrality, but you are not yet color neutral.



Spoiler



IMO


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## yockee (Oct 10, 2011)

Something I've noticed is that I find it easier to solve CN on certain cubes more than others. The weird thing about it is that all those cubes could be black or white, and have the same sticker colors, but there's something about certain cubes that make it easier than others. I definitely find it easier on white cubes. I don't know if it's the different shades of black or white, or the size of stickers, or how close they are.... Ex: I solve CN on my Haiyan's cube much faster (I THINK) because the stickers are so close together. I don't know, really. I solve CN really well on my white POM Gu Hong, but on my regular white Gu Hong, I can't even solve white well, because the white is so bright that it makes me not able to see the colors as well. My white A5 and C2 are both kind of a dark white, and I do really well with them.


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## teller (Oct 10, 2011)

yockee said:


> I've been trying to become CN for quite some time now. Usually, I just get frustrated and go back to white because it get's boring knowing that I can't look ahead and have a fast solve. The one thing that keeps me pushing at it is because I know it'll give me something new and make crosses better for me. A lot of the times, I still get a 3 sec cross, which just sucks. I only get 1-2 sec crosses when they are just plain easy. I always think back to how I first started on green cross, and stayed there for about a year. I only switched to white because when I started learning from you tube, most tutorials were using white cross. I forced myself to switch then, so I should be able to do it now. I remember it took a while then, too.


I had the same exact problem, missing my speed, and it kept me from taking the plunge for over a year. There's this wall you have to push through. I guess I finally committed because I felt like a hypocrite evangelizing this thing that I wasn't even doing. On the other side of the wall, though...the water is fine! The grass is green, and the crosses are rainbow colored.


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## teller (Oct 10, 2011)

@Woner: I was under the impression that Rowe was fixed color at one point. If I am mistaken, then I apologize.


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## jms_gears1 (Oct 10, 2011)

wontolla said:


> Every cuber can do that, and that doesn't mean we are all colour neutral.
> 
> I'm solving with a blue cross at this moment, but I'm definitely not CN.



Well sure, Every cuber can use any other method. The reason they arent considered to be x method users is because they choose not to.

In much the same fashion every cuber has the ability to choose whichever colour would give them a better block/cross, the ones that choose to do so should be considered CN, whereas those who stick with one color are not.

tl;dr: its not so much about the ability to be CN as it is the actual action of being CN

EDIT: Didnt see there were more replies, I thought it took me to the last post >.>

I guess if you look at it as an adjective describing an ability then I would agree with Kir/Woner. I was looking at it as an adjective to describe the way in which you solve.


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## teller (Oct 10, 2011)

The OP was encouraging people to take the plunge and stick with it. The definition debate is uninteresting and off-topic.


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## Kirjava (Oct 10, 2011)

teller said:


> The definition debate is uninteresting and off-topic.


 
Realised that you're wrong?


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## teller (Oct 10, 2011)

Kirjava said:


> Realised that you're wrong?


 
I still say I'm CN. I'm cool with being "wrong" though.


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## Kirjava (Oct 10, 2011)

It's just that people assume it means you're colour neutral, when you aren't.

I know I did at first. It's misleading.


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## teller (Oct 10, 2011)

Kirjava said:


> It's just that people assume it means you're colour neutral, when you aren't.
> 
> I know I did at first. It's misleading.


 
I think everyone knew what I meant, except for the definition nazis.


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## Kirjava (Oct 10, 2011)

teller said:


> I think everyone knew what I meant, except for the definition nazis.


 
No they didn't. The title doesn't give enough information to know what you meant.

Now you're calling me a nazi? Grow up babe <3


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## Andrew Ricci (Oct 10, 2011)

Kirjava said:


> No they didn't. The title doesn't give enough information to know what you meant.
> 
> Now you're calling me a nazi? Grow up babe <3


 
I find it funny that you complain about other people derailing your threads to discuss something mundane and stupid, but you did the exact same thing to this one.


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## Kirjava (Oct 10, 2011)

theanonymouscuber said:


> I find it funny that you complain about other people derailing your threads to discuss something mundane and stupid, but you did the exact same thing to this one.


 
I think how we use terms in cubing is important and it makes me sad to see them diluted like this. 

What exactly is there to derail from in this thread? It's a story posted by the OP. There's not much contructive you can do to that aside from adding your own experiences. Topic drift is natural, and this is still somewhat on topic.

I don't "complain about other people derailing my threads". You're just making that **** up. This is the closest I have come to doing what you've said. I'm surprised how nice I was considering the derailments I have to content with consist of quoting someone and explaining why they are wrong and why their idea is stupid. This contrasts to the "derailment" in this thread that contains valuable discussion pertaining to the correct use of cubing terminology.


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## teller (Oct 10, 2011)

Alright, I guess we're going to have this discussion...

Definitions are great, they really are. I couldn't do philosophy without them. They tell which things or people or events belong in a category, and which ones do not. Your definition of CN would seem to exclude anyone with the slightest bias for a certain color. How perfectly uniform do the different colors have to be? 100% 99.9? Where is the line? My white cross are the oldest neurons and unless I avoid white for a long time I may never get rid of a slight edge. Am I excluded forever?


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## Kirjava (Oct 11, 2011)

A lack of bias is required.


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## DavidWoner (Oct 11, 2011)

Considering the OP is stating that it is worth the sacrifice to switch to color neutral, I'd say that it is of extreme importance that we establish what the term means. When I read the OP I assumed that Teller had managed to even out his times with all cross colors, since that is the definition of color neutral I have always heard.

Re: Deletions- I was just clearing up some clutter. This thread was actually right on topic until someone accused Thom of derailing it.


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## yockee (Oct 11, 2011)

Ok, so since David deleted the last thing I said, it now looks like (to those who have read it, mostly Thom) that I implied that Thom was a destructive force. So, sorry to be off topic here, but I needed to make sure that the point I was trying to make was clear, so things weren't taken the wrong way. So Thom, check your messages. Sorry Teller.

By the way (Teller), I saw the post before it was deleted, about you cubing before everyone was born... I'm just wondering, how old are you, dude? Hahahaha. I mean, I had a cube back in 1980, but I was only 3, hahaha.


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## somerandomkidmike (Oct 11, 2011)

I think I'm gonna try out colour neutrality, just because I'm a little bored with cubing. Plus, the part of my solve that's the most inconsistent is my first layer. This original post has convinced me that it would be a good thing to do.


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## teller (Oct 11, 2011)

yockee said:


> By the way (Teller), I saw the post before it was deleted, about you cubing before everyone was born... I'm just wondering, how old are you, dude? Hahahaha. I mean, I had a cube back in 1980, but I was only 3, hahaha.


LOL...I feel your gray hair, dude.  I am 40...I solved my first cube when I was about 10, using a beginner's method that nobody uses anymore. Some details are here from when I first joined in 2008.

And...history is not going to be kind to those who declared a broken and useless definition to be correct, and embraced by a non-existent phantom majority that in reality doesn't see any distinction. I would never shoot a CN F2L video because I want the fixed cross people to get the full benefit, but I am tempted to shoot a practice session and wait for the first fixed cross person to complain, only to tell them that the geniuses at speedsolving would like them to know that the overwhelming majority of cubers do not consider it color-neutral, and that they will just have to deal with the contradiction.


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## jakkspeedcuber (Oct 11, 2011)

Here is all the sub10 cubers using fridrich, and look how many there are that are color neutral, really not that much. So,IMO, you can easily be as good as people color neutral, and it doesn't worth the time of adaptation. But, we should all have started being color neutral.

1. Feliks Zemdegs : Color neutral
2. Piti Pichedpan : White cross
3. Giovanni Contardi : Orange cross
4. Rowe Hessler : Color neutral
5. Kanneti Sae Han :Orange cross (or red if there is an obvious xcross
6. Yumu Tabuchi : Blue cross(japanese scheme)
7. Asia Konvittayayotin : Opposite white / yellow
8. Mats Valk : Blue cross
9. Cornelius Dieckmann : White cross
10. Erik Akkersdijk : Opposite white/yellow
11. Robert Yau : White cross
12. Michał Pleskowicz : Opposite white yellow
13. Mulun Yin : 
14. Nipat Charoenpholphant : Opposite white/yellow
15. Milán Baticz : Opposite white/yellow
16. Dan Cohen : White cross
17. Morten Arborg : Color neutral
18. Stefan Huber : White cross
19. Kailong Li : White cross
20. Vincent Hartanto Utomo : White cross
21. Sebastian Weyer : White cross
22. Tomasz Żołnowski : White cross (left)
23. Joar Mellström : White cross
24. Breandan Vallance : White cross
25. Haowei Fan : White cross
26. Phillip Espinoza : White cross (left)


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## teller (Oct 11, 2011)

@jakk Thank you for posting that. Evidence is always our friend, no matter which side it favors.

But I suspect the white/yellow is under-reported.


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## Anthony (Oct 11, 2011)

jakkspeedcuber said:


> 11. Robert Yau : White cross


Does Rob stick to white cross now? I seem to remember him being CN and I definitely remember a video of him doing an orange cross avg12.


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## Daniel Wu (Oct 11, 2011)

teller said:


> But I suspect the white/yellow is under-reported.


 I agree with this. I'm a bit surprised. Opposite colors is not all that difficult to use because the colors for F2L are basically the same so I would think more people would use it.


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## JyH (Oct 11, 2011)

jakkspeedcuber said:


> 24. Breandan Vallance : White cross



Breandan uses yellow.


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## jskyler91 (Oct 11, 2011)

Just because you can be fast without color neutrality doesn't meant that you should do it. Color neutrality doesn't just save you time in your cross, it helps your cross to f2l transition (easier cross makes it easier to look ahead into first f2l pair), increases you likelihood of getting x crosses (more crosses to choose from, so better chance) and alleviates the stress of having a "bad cross" which allows your solves to be more relaxed and fluid. 

To me, being color fixed is like quite simply laziness, the only advantage of it is that you feel "more comfortable" during your solves which makes your think you can look ahead better. I have been color neutral for over 4 month's now and I have to say that I have absolutely no regrets about switching. I feel completely comfortable and able to look ahead on any cross. Sure it messed me up for like 3 weeks, but after that three weeks my times started to drop like crazy. 

Color neutrality is an investment which will pay out later when everyone else has plateaued and you are still speeding up. I always say it is better to be incredibly fast later and ok now than to be faster than i am now but ok later. Just my two cents.

Also, I think it is important that we consider that of the cubers in the top 5 for singles, at least 4 of them are non color fixed and 2 are color neutral (I don't know what Che-ting chu is, he may be too.).


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## Weston (Oct 11, 2011)

The list of all the official sub 10 cubers using Fridrich isn't really evidence for anything.


As for what I think about being color neutral, I think there are more interesting and beneficial things to work on.





jskyler91 said:


> To me, being color fixed is like quite simply laziness, the only advantage of it is that you feel "more comfortable" during your solves which makes your think you can look ahead better.


Or is color neutrality being lazy for not wanting to look ahead on a slightly longer cross solution?


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## jskyler91 (Oct 11, 2011)

Weston said:


> The list of all the official sub 10 cubers using Fridrich isn't really evidence for anything.
> 
> 
> As far as what I think about being color neutral, I think there are more interesting and beneficial things to work on.


 
True, but the great part about color neutrality is that it doesn't actually require much work; you just start doing it. You can still practice other things while practicing color neutrality. Especially if you are just doing slow solves to develop new skills or habits.



Weston said:


> Or is color neutrality being lazy for not wanting to look ahead on a slightly longer cross solution?


 
The laziness I am referring to is in the fact that people who started off as color fixed are either to lazy or too stubborn to switch. I have a very simple cubing mantra "Only Do the Best"; I don't waste my time with bad habits or things that feel more comfortable but have less potential. There is no escaping the fact that color neutrality is better assuming that it is perfectly implemented. If you have two people who are exactly the same and they both learn the same things at the same time in the same way, the one who is color neutral is going to be faster in the long run because he will have better crosses and f2l transitions due to that. 

The only arguments I have ever heard for being color fixed that actually holds up is that it makes predicting f2l easier do to familiarity, which is true in the short run, but as time progresses becomes less and less so. I have timed myself on all 6 cross colors and I am almost exactly the same time. My fastest was Blue cross (I was originally white cross) and the others were within a second or so which isn't surprising considering I have a 1.5 second SD. Do you have any other arguments for being color fixed? I would honestly be interested to hear them.


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## Shortey (Oct 11, 2011)

jakkspeedcuber said:


> 11. Robert Yau : White cross
> 17. Morten Arborg : Color neutral
> 24. Breandan Vallance : White cross


 
wat


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## Godmil (Oct 11, 2011)

jskyler91 said:


> Deleted


 
You can actually delete your posts.

I believe the original argument for using white cross was that since it stands out most it makes it easier to spot corners during the F2L, then when you come to OLL you use the second easiest to spot colour (yellow) to identify your case.
The list of top cubes is really interesting, I didn't realise there were so many blue/red/orange cross cubers up there, it could be a case where evidence trumps theory and suggests there isn't a 'best' colour.


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## Kirjava (Oct 11, 2011)

teller said:


> And...history is not going to be kind to those who declared a broken and useless definition to be correct, and embraced by a non-existent phantom majority that in reality doesn't see any distinction. I would never shoot a CN F2L video because I want the fixed cross people to get the full benefit, but I am tempted to shoot a practice session and wait for the first fixed cross person to complain, only to tell them that the geniuses at speedsolving would like them to know that the overwhelming majority of cubers do not consider it color-neutral, and that they will just have to deal with the contradiction.


 
You are extremely deluded. Sarcastically calling someone who disagrees with you a genius is another childish move.

Feel free to keep erroneously telling people you are colour neutral. You're just setting yourself up to disappoint people when they find out that you're actually much faster when using a fixed colour. At best it's a poor interpretation of terminology. At worst it's an outright lie.

It's possible to do colour neutral solves without being colour neutral. This is what I think you're confused about.


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## Godmil (Oct 11, 2011)

Mummy, Daddy, please stop fighting. <sobs>


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## Escher (Oct 11, 2011)

So much of this thread is so damn fail.

1) One point that some people forget to consider is the possibility that for some people being colour neutral will always be confusing. Mentally 'toggling' between which colours to look for during f2l etc might actually be a big hindrance for some people.

2) People really underestimate how difficult and demotivating it is to switch. During switching, your times on each colour cross will begin to tend towards another. You get significantly slower at your previous fixed cross colour(s).

3) Statistics mean nothing with this kind of debate, just as with methods. If one followed statistics, you could quite happily say that White cross Fridrich was the worst method by far. Look how many slow people there are who use it!

4) You are not 'neutral' in any sense of the word unless you have no bias. This applies to cross colours, and if you have to practice _at_ colour neutrality then you are not colour _neutral_.

5) I think pretty much all popular teaching media on Youtube should change to make a very big note of/promote colour neutrality. The negatives when you start are non-existent, and the positives are bigger and bigger the faster you get. It's much harder for me to consistently spot 1st/2nd pair in CFOP (and guarantee a good solve) than it is for Feliks. 

6) The 'ideal' speedcuber would be colour neutral, amongst other skills. As in many skill-based sports, it's a good idea to work towards an 'ubermensch' as long as you take an intelligent and dedicated line with it.

7) Stop bickering about semantics.


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## teller (Oct 11, 2011)

Escher said:


> 2) People really underestimate how difficult and demotivating it is to switch. During switching, your times on each colour cross will begin to tend towards another. You get significantly slower at your previous fixed cross colour(s).


This didn't happen to me...I found my solve enhanced, and now I'm seeing all kinds of things I overlooked before in F2L. More than the cross-to-F2L transition, I was promoting this as a benefit. At least one other person has confirmed it. But it may be one of those things were mileage varies.



> 7) Stop bickering about semantics.


Yeah, I failed. Should never have responded to any of that stuff. It always degenerates into who can get the last word in. I can do better.


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## jskyler91 (Oct 11, 2011)

Escher said:


> So much of this thread is so damn fail.
> 
> 1) One point that some people forget to consider is the possibility that for some people being colour neutral will always be confusing. Mentally 'toggling' between which colours to look for during f2l etc might actually be a big hindrance for some people.


 
Maybe for a few, but I would say that most would adapt to it over time and find, just as teller and i have, that it is quite easy. 

"4) You are not 'neutral' in any sense of the word unless you have no bias. This applies to cross colours, and if you have to practice at colour neutrality then you are not colour neutral."

This is quite simply not true. Color neutrality is one of those things you can do naturally or that you can acquire. If you are color fixed then becoming color neutral will take some practice because you will have to get out of the habit and relearn how to look for pieces. As long as being color neutral doesn't in any way hold back your times then I say you are color neutral. The biggest test of whether or not you are truly color neutral is if you can decrease your times after becoming color neutral. Again, I switched and it would be false for anyone to say that I am not color neutral. 

"5) I think pretty much all popular teaching media on Youtube should change to make a very big note of/promote colour neutrality. The negatives when you start are non-existent, and the positives are bigger and bigger the faster you get. It's much harder for me to consistently spot 1st/2nd pair in CFOP (and guarantee a good solve) than it is for Feliks. "

I completely agree and I do this in my speedcubing class at UCB. Also, I am pretty sure that Felik's switched to color neutrality pretty late in the game, so if he can do it so can you.


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## Kirjava (Oct 11, 2011)

jskyler91 said:


> This is quite simply not true. Color neutrality is one of those things you can do naturally or that you can acquire. If you are color fixed then becoming color neutral will take some practice because you will have to get out of the habit and relearn how to look for pieces.


 
You misunderstand. If you are practising to achieve it you are not there yet. He didn't mean that if you have achieved it through practise that it doesn't count.


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## Anthony (Oct 11, 2011)

jskyler91 said:


> Also, I am pretty sure that Felik's switched to color neutrality pretty late in the game, so if he can do it so can you.


The very latest Feliks may have switched to being CN is ~3 months after he began cubing (as evident from this video), but he probably started beginning his solves with any cross color before that - possibly from when he first began.


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## Kirjava (Oct 11, 2011)

Feliks has been CN from the start. jskyler91 is just making stuff up.


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## jskyler91 (Oct 11, 2011)

Kirjava said:


> Feliks has been CN from the start. jskyler91 is just making stuff up.


 
I thought he said that he had switched in his tutorials, but I guess I was wrong. 

I hope everyone understands that I am not trying to be argumentative. I just want people to know that being color neutral is 100 percent possible even if you didn't start that way. For some reason people think that it is really difficult or that they will never be able to do it correctly and i am telling you that if you stick to it full heartedly it won't even take much more than a month and I can almost guarantee that by then end of 2 months you won't ever think of being color fixed again.


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## DavidWoner (Oct 11, 2011)

jskyler91 said:


> I just want people to know that being color neutral is 100 percent possible even if you didn't start that way. For some reason people think that it is really difficult or that they will never be able to do it correctly and i am telling you that if you stick to it full heartedly it won't even take much more than a month and I can almost guarantee that by then end of 2 months you won't ever think of being color fixed again.


 
Where is your evidence for this? I have never heard of someone switching to color neutral and being as fast as they were before. Lars was trying this a while back, but iirc he still had bias after a few months. If anyone has successfully converted(no bias) after they reached sub-20 I would be very interested to hear about their experience with it.


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## Robert-Y (Oct 11, 2011)

I was thinking even if Faz, Rowe, me, etc. claim that we are colour neutral, we cannot really prove this, but if we were all colour neutral from the beginning, I guess it would make sense.



Anthony said:


> Does Rob stick to white cross now? I seem to remember him being CN and I definitely remember a video of him doing an orange cross avg12.


 
No! I've never switched to a single colour before. I don't even know how this rumour started. The same goes for Morten and Breandan. Is there even any evidence to suggest that Morten is CN, and Breandan and I use white cross?


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## Jostle (Oct 11, 2011)

DavidWoner said:


> Where is your evidence for this? I have never heard of someone switching to color neutral and being as fast as they were before. Lars was trying this a while back, but iirc he still had bias after a few months. *If anyone has successfully converted(no bias) after they reached sub-20 I would be very interested to hear about their experience with it.*



I might try this, just for shits and giggles.


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## bwronski (Oct 11, 2011)

I did do it. I had an average of 50 under 20s and I switched color to "color neutral" and I had no issue being able to to start with different colored crosses.


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## Schmidt (Oct 11, 2011)

This might not be a good comparison, but hey....

If you empty a big box of Lego (I know it has many more shapes, sizes and forms than a Rubik's Cube) and you have to find four 2x2 flat pieces, is it easier to find four white pieces or four pieces of any other fixed color?? I would say white as you know what you are looking for, instead of finding two blue pieces and then see the three yellow right next to each other and then looking for both blue and yellow to get to four pieces of either color in total.

I'm not fast and I'm not CN, but when I see an eazy cross on one of the other colors, I solve that. I still have problems when white is involved: If cross is blue and I have the W B O corner I sometimes spend useless seconds looking for the B O edge.

[PRO TIP] Don't lift the cube to see what the color of the cross is; look at the U centerpiece! Cross is the opposite[/PRO TIP]


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## bwronski (Oct 11, 2011)

the thing with the legos is that you know what you look for once you decide your cross, its not random f2l pair, they are the ones that fill the cross you chose. So you know what to look for once you pick your cross


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## Escher (Oct 11, 2011)

jskyler91 said:


> I thought he said that he had switched in his tutorials, but I guess I was wrong.
> 
> I hope everyone understands that I am not trying to be argumentative. I just want people to know that being color neutral is 100 percent possible even if you didn't start that way. For some reason people think that it is really difficult or that they will never be able to do it correctly and i am telling you that if you stick to it full heartedly it won't even take much more than a month and I can almost guarantee that by then end of 2 months you won't ever think of being color fixed again.


 
I certainly don't think this is the case for the fastest cubers. Me, Breandan and Gabriel Dechichi (probably more) have all attempted to switch (and you can be certain of how hard we practice) and failed or given up. Maybe the 'slow-down' factor isn't that obvious for you but for a friend of mine who is around 25s who tried to switch it has damaged his times (he is still persevering) and it affected my recognition too. It could be that there is a soft-spot between learning/knowing the cases and having trained recognition (between 12-25) that is better for switching than others.

The main point I'm trying to get at is that the high cost of becoming colour neutral at my kind of speed (and many others, to be honest) is mostly not worth the uncertain reward of becoming faster... Eventually.

I totally agree that most people would be better off if they were.


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## jrb (Oct 12, 2011)

Escher said:


> I certainly don't think this is the case for the fastest cubers. Me, Breandan and Gabriel Dechichi (probably more) have all attempted to switch (and you can be certain of how hard we practice) and failed or given up. Maybe the 'slow-down' factor isn't that obvious for you but for a friend of mine who is around 25s who tried to switch it has damaged his times (he is still persevering) and it affected my recognition too. It could be that there is a soft-spot between learning/knowing the cases and having trained recognition (between 12-25) that is better for switching than others.
> 
> The main point I'm trying to get at is that the high cost of becoming colour neutral at my kind of speed (and many others, to be honest) is mostly not worth the uncertain reward of becoming faster... Eventually.
> 
> I totally agree believe that most people would be better off if they were.



I actually switched to being color neutral when I was averaging 25.xx and I was back to normal times within a week.


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## mucoromycotina (Oct 13, 2011)

Hey guys. I'm relatively new to cubing (started a couple months ago) and I'm interested in this idea of color neutrality. Right now I average about 37 seconds with CFOP and a fixed white cross. I haven't learned full OLL yet and I also need to work on fingertricks.

My question is: would it be better to practice being color neutral now? Or should I wait until I get faster? Please explain why.

(as a side note, great thread! really informative, besides all the contradictions and stuff)


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## Escher (Oct 13, 2011)

mucoromycotina said:


> Hey guys. I'm relatively new to cubing (started a couple months ago) and I'm interested in this idea of color neutrality. Right now I average about 37 seconds with CFOP and a fixed white cross. I haven't learned full OLL yet and I also need to work on fingertricks.
> 
> My question is: would it be better to practice being color neutral now? Or should I wait until I get faster? Please explain why.
> 
> (as a side note, great thread! really informative, besides all the contradictions and stuff)



Switch as soon as possible 

The earlier the better - the less you've reinforced your white bias the easier to lose it.

You'll inevitably find your times are worse, and that previous F2L cases that were easy are a bit more difficult to recognise, but soon enough you'll overcome that hump. The true benefits show themselves when you learn to predict first pair, but there's no harm in practicing that early on too 

Edit: Kir got ninja'd. Also your name is awesome


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## Kirjava (Oct 13, 2011)

If you're going to try and switch, do it sooner rather than later. The faster you are the harder it is.


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## mucoromycotina (Oct 13, 2011)

Thanks for the information!



> Also your name is awesome


Thanks, you're name reminds me of M.C. Escher.


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## Kirjava (Oct 13, 2011)

Escher said:


> Edit: Kir got ninja'd. Also your name is awesome


 
I was kidding. Obviously it's better to get faster on just white cross first then switch to all colours. It's like starting with a bad cube until you get fast.


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## FatBoyXPC (Oct 13, 2011)

Kirjava said:


> Feliks has been CN from the start. jskyler91 is just making stuff up.


 
I feel like you or Andrew had asked Feliks this question on CubeCast. If memory serves correctly, Feliks said Dan Brown said to always do the cross with the best color (as in what has the most of the cross done), so that's what he did.


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## jms_gears1 (Oct 13, 2011)

I average roughly 16/17 seconds right now. But I average about a minute OH (ive just started practicing)

Im going to try and be completely CN with OH and see if that will help me transition into CN for my 2H solves.


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## Escher (Oct 14, 2011)

mucoromycotina said:


> Thanks for the information!
> 
> 
> Thanks, you're name reminds me of M.C. Escher.


 
There's a link to cubing (actually accidental) if you care to find it


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## AustinReed (Oct 14, 2011)

I have a comp on Nov 17th. Based on your experience, If I were to practice being CN until then, would I be good to go for the comp?


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## teller (Oct 14, 2011)

AustinReed said:


> I have a comp on Nov 17th. Based on your experience, If I were to practice being CN until then, would I be good to go for the comp?


 
I doubt it very much, but your mileage may vary. Everyone is different but I'm saying it's on the order of months.


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## clifford2704 (Oct 16, 2011)

in the 15 seconds inspection time how do you find the "best cross"? atm as a white cross maker I can somewhat do this but if I have to inspect the same way for every colour not sure how that'll work.


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## riffz (Oct 17, 2011)

Just eyeball it quickly. Look for any faces that have all their pieces in a nice orientation, 1 or 2 cross pieces already solved, or even a connected F2L pair that would allow an easy x-cross. (That's what I do, anyway.)


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## DavidWoner (Oct 17, 2011)

Yeah you don't necessarily look for the *best* cross as much as you look for a *good* cross.


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## bwronski (Oct 17, 2011)

the *fastest* is what i look for


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## LeighzerCuber (Oct 21, 2011)

You want to look for a cross that is mostly made or could be done fast with nice finger tricks. Fewest moves _might _not be the fastest. Hence, you look for a cross that you can execute well. 
(and a good transition into f2l is also ideal.)


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## markthema3 (Oct 21, 2011)

Thanks for this. For the 3 years I have been solving, I have always done red on bottom/red cross. When I started learning Petrus method 2 weeks ago, I always used red on bottom. Thanks to this thread I'm now almost completely color neutral. Now I'm just waiting for my ZhanChi to ship so I can see what I can do with a good cube.


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## IanTheCuber (Oct 29, 2011)

I'm semi-color neutral: I do either the white cross or yellow cross.


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## Jaycee (Oct 29, 2011)

IanTheCuber said:


> I'm semi-color neutral: I do either the white cross or yellow cross.


 
Just a fun fact : It's normally called "opposite colors neutral".

When I finally pick up my 3x3 again (It's been all 2x2 and 4x4 for weeks), I'll be working towards opposite colors neutral.


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## xabu1 (Nov 4, 2011)

I find it interesting, trying to move towards colour neutral

I use roux, and I always do the orange/white on DL block, now I am just trying to do other blocks with white still on the bottom, I used to do fridrich with white cross, but still, I find even this quite hard

if I get used to all blocks with white on D, I might think about moving on to trying to become colour neutral

the only thing I am worried about it the inspection time, right now I use most of it, I am worried that if I go for colour neutral, I will go over, right now, I am just checking for first 1x1x2 that I can use and going with that block


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## kajitatsu (Nov 4, 2011)

Jaycee said:


> Just a fun fact : It's normally called "opposite colors neutral".
> 
> When I finally pick up my 3x3 again (It's been all 2x2 and 4x4 for weeks), I'll be working towards opposite colors neutral.



Interestingly, if you look at Michal's WC 2011 3x3 final solves he only did White and Yellow (I think one) crosses, just saying. Might've been a coincidence that all the white crosses were nice.


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## jonlin (Nov 5, 2011)

You said "why i am now color neutral." When you started this thread.
It's not worth the change unless you started with it in the first place.
Why does everyone all of a sudden want to learn color neutrality?
Maybe because of Rowe and Faz.
In 2008 no one who was a serious CFOP user recommended color neutrality(Hardwick, Erik, etc.).


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