# New android App. Any Thoughts?



## wolferber (Aug 13, 2013)

Hey guys, I just released a new android app that I think is really awesome for the cubing community called "Sune Timer". I added a basic timer that allows you to track times for five different puzzles, along with in-depth statistics, scrambles, and a performance graph. I have also upload EVERY possible algorithm that I could find for OLL and PLL (for every case, I have posted 5-25 variations). In addition, I added upcoming cubing competitions, WCA regulations, and a list of world records.

Also check out called race timer. Its just basically two timers on once screen to allow cubers to race each other on the same device.

anyway, I just wanted to get your guy's thoughts on it. Any thoughts or improvements I can make?

Here is the link: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.Baid.basic5&hl=en


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## Dino (Aug 13, 2013)

Just installed, will have a proper look at it in the morning, however initial feelings are that it definitely has promise, but:

1) Only checked the N perms and at least the first alg on each one are incorrect.
2) Why do the scrambles have "i" (inverse) instead of ' for prime?
3) I would be nice, although not sure how practical, if there were small thumbnails along with the case name or a grid view for easy ID when searching for a case.
4) The Performance graph is a cool idea, a histogram would also be good to show distribution.
5) The timer is buggy when you enter an inspection time. I only tried 15 secs, but after starting the timer it went a bit nuts and reset itself after about 5 seconds.
6) Statistics screen could be a little better organised.

Keep up the good work.

Edit: Installed on Sony Xperia Z.


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## wolferber (Aug 13, 2013)

Hey, 

Thanks for for the advice. I am actually a new programmer and this was my first app release so I' still working out all the bugs. 

1) I'll take a look at the algorithms, I may have mixed them up.
2) This shouldn't be too difficult to change. The reason I had i's instead of ' was because java thinks that I am creating a new string whenever it sees the tick mark, though I think I can fix that very easily.
3)Yeah, I agree, I'll get on it tomorrow.
4) Very do-able, definitely try to incorporate that as well.
5) This has actually been bothering me nonstop. For some reason, my code is executing way after the countdown finishes and completely skips the last number in the countdown. I'll have to more research into why it does that
6)Any suggestions? I could add more stats or even a scroll view to allow easier access.

Also, I'm working on trying to get a functional landscape mode, and adding a scoreboard of some sort to the race timer. 

Let me know if you come up with anything else or notice any other bugs.


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## MaikeruKonare (Aug 13, 2013)

Sounds pretty awesome, I have an iPhone so I will see if I can borrow my sisters android to check it out tomorrow afternoon.


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## wolferber (Aug 13, 2013)

Awesome. I'm working on an update to fix some bugs right now


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## Aceno20 (Aug 13, 2013)

Sounds cool. I'll download it later today after school


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## wolferber (Aug 13, 2013)

Alright, the reason some of the algorithms are off because I accidently took out the parenthesis. But on the bright side, there are a bunch of alternative algorithms for every case. I'm working on an update that hopefully I'll be able to get out by tonight if my computer doesn't continue to be soo slow.

Also, you guys might see some sweet new features tonight.


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## Wassili (Aug 13, 2013)

Don't have my phone with me now, but I hope this app is good because the other apps are pretty bad on android. And if it isn't perfect I hope you keep on updating it with better features


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## Stefan (Aug 13, 2013)

Times are usually written with "." after the seconds (and you're showing centiseconds, not milliseconds, so "MiSec" seems wrong).


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## BlueStars (Aug 13, 2013)

I've been searching for something like that for a long time. Thank you!


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## wolferber (Aug 13, 2013)

Yeah, I noticed a lot of android app were quite lacking, so I wanted to create one that could be really awesome for the cubing community. Thanks for all the feedback i've been getting. I'm fixing all the things things you guys have suggested, and added some more features. Update should be out tonight or tomorrow.

Thanks guys, keep the suggestions coming.
:tu


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## Wassili (Aug 13, 2013)

Well I downloaded the app, and the first thing I noticed was that it really needs a better look. I can see your not a graphic designer or anything, but the poor cropping and stretched fonts make this app look not very professional, yet you put a lot of effort in the programming of the whole app and its features. Another simple thing that could be added is instead of Ui, for example, it would be U', like in an official WCA scrambler. And could you please make the background customizable, because that yellow is really bugging me. Finally, I'm sure you are working on it, but scrambles for all the other WCA puzzles are needed. I will probably be using this app in the future when it improves


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## wolferber (Aug 13, 2013)

Hahah, Yes. Very true, I am not a graphics designer, but it I did work very hard to allow it have a lot of features.

1)I have already gotten ridden of the "i's", should go away in the next update.

2)Adding in more customization is definitely a direction I want to take.

3)Scrambles for other puzzles are also on the way.

I apologize for the bugs, I am a very new programmer. I self-taught myself programming over the course of the last two months. I am sure that as I go back to school I will learn much more which will allow me to greatly enhance this app. 

Also thanks for the word of encouragements guys. Your guy's support is what inspired me to make this app in the first place.

:tu


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## wolferber (Aug 14, 2013)

Alright, I took the suggestions you guys gave me and released an update that has fixed a lot of the bugs that you guys mentioned. I'm still working on some on them, and should have a second update sometime tomorrow .

Sune Timer 1.6: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.Baid.basic5&hl=en

Also, I am not that great of an graphic artist as you guys have mentioned; So if you guys think you have a cool idea for a new app icon or cover page, send it to me and I'll have a look at it.

-Ish


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## wolferber (Aug 14, 2013)

Alright, so right now I'm incorporating scrambles of all puzzle types in the app, but I don't exactly know how the scrambling system works for all the puzzles.

Could someone possibly explain to me and direct me to somewhere it explains how scrambling works for a :Rubik's Square-1, and a Rubik's clock.

I have never messed around with these puzzles so the notations don't make a lot of sense to me. Your help would be greatly appreciated. 

Thanks

-Ish


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## MaikeruKonare (Aug 14, 2013)

Make it for iPhone:3


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## wolferber (Aug 14, 2013)

^Hahaha, Funny thing is I have an iphone as well. I'll create an ios version just as soon as soon as I learn to program in objective C.


But I still need someone to explain to me scramble notations for square-1 and clock..plz. It's driving me nuts!!


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## MaikeruKonare (Aug 14, 2013)

I can teach you objective C! What is android programmed in? I know C#, C++, Objective C, LabVIEW, HTML, assembly, 8051, ti, basic, batch, etcetera. ...what is iOS programmed in?


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## wolferber (Aug 14, 2013)

Oh wow. I wish I knew all those languages. Android is just java. Hey, with all those languages, you should definitely go to http://www.mhacks.org/

I'll be there though, I'm not sure how well I'll do since I'm a programming nooob.


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## Stefan (Aug 14, 2013)

Yes, knowing many languages totally makes one a good hacker, and not being able to find out what iOS is programmed in totally doesn't indicate the opposite.


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## tim (Aug 14, 2013)

wolferber said:


> Also, I am not that great of an graphic artist as you guys have mentioned.



If you suck at design (like me) keep it simple: Use very few colors and no fancy shadows/gradients. It will look like crap if you don't know what you're doing (this is especially true with gradients).



MaikeruKonare said:


> I know [...] Objective C, [...] what is iOS programmed in?



How did you manage to learn Objective-C without coming across references to iOS?


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## wolferber (Aug 14, 2013)

^thanks for the advice, I created a new, simpler cover page.

In order news, new UPDATE! Now, Sune Timer includes scrambles fro all WCA puzzles + improved customization.

Oh yeah, and it's available for four low payments of FREE :

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.Baid.basic5&hl=en 

As always, let me know of any bugs or improvements.

-Ish

:tu


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## Bunyanderman (Aug 15, 2013)

good app, a few suggestions though. The scramble length i believe is 30, and that is fine but maybe a little excessive, can you add an option to change scramble length?
And the graph is too zoomed in if you get that, the spread of the graph i believe is best time and worst can you make that best time minus %15 an worst time plus %15?
And when i accidentally start the timer (my fault) can you make it so the back button cancels the timer but gives new scramble? A reply would be nice if you agree or disagree.


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## frankvanhoof (Aug 15, 2013)

ObjectiveC is one of the languages in GCC


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## frankvanhoof (Aug 15, 2013)

I would love a timer that allows me to export my times. Perhaps in CSV format or txt


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## wolferber (Aug 15, 2013)

Hey guys, thanks for the suggestions. I'll work on an update that'll allow for better customization tomorrow. I especially agree with a feature to allow you to export your times^.

I'll definitely try to add in a button that gives you a new scramble (should be no problem at all).

Hopefully, new update tomorrow.

Thanks

-Ish

:tu


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## pipkiksass (Aug 15, 2013)

Hi Ish,

Great timer. I have a few points of feedback which (hopefully) you'll find useful:

1) The timer screen is a bit cluttered. The "Hr:Min:Sec.Cs" label isn't _really_ necessary, is it? Maybe it should be an option in settings?

2) Is it always necessary to display hours and minutes? I'm pretty sure this is standard practice, but again just displaying eg. mm:ss.cs would reduce clutter for 3x3. Another option for settings?

3) 'Start' button is nice and big, but still missable! I just did an Ao50 and missed it a few times. Is there a reason why you're using a button, rather than just touching the screen? Can the whole timer screen be the start/stop button?

4) The background colour is... er... ... but this has been mentioned previously!

5) Popups when you hit a PB are nice, but have to be dismissed with a 'back' key press. Would be nice if touching anywhere dismissed these.

6) Popup when you hit Ao5/12 might be nice?

7) No way of +2 or DNFing a solve. These options only need to be visible after stopping the timer.

8) Would be nice to have multiple sessions, and for the progress graph to show the progress between the sessions, rather than for individual solves. My graph is all over the shop, as my times fluctuated between 17 and 28 seconds (). If today's Ao50 was session 1, with an average of 21.67, tomorrow's was session 2, with an average of 22.xx, next session average 20.blah... this would be a far more meaningful graph than individual solves? 

9) X axis intervals on the progress graph have a decimal place, although they integers (number of solves)?!

10) Would be nice to have a 'Timer' button directly on the splash screen, rather than having to go > Menu > Timer.

11) Would be nice if settings tab on the Timer screen could be activated by menu-button press? In fact, is this required as its own tab at all? 

Other than that, it's great. These are all really just suggestions, there's no 'problems' with it. My main droid timer is still JJtimer, just because it allows me to have separate sessions, touch anywhere starts/stops, etc.. I'd recommend taking a look at it, if you haven't already, and seeing if there's any good ideas you can incorporate? I will be watching this space as, with a little work, this could be awesome.

Well done, and thanks again!


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## wolferber (Aug 15, 2013)

Hey, pipkiksass 

Thanks for the advice man. Yeah I agree with a lot of what you're saying. Personally, I, also want to add all the things that you said. The reason I wasn't able to implement all that in the first version was because of my limited knowledge (I'm a new programmer), but every day I've researching more and more to add features suggested by you guys.

I am definitely going to implement some of the features you mentioned today and have an update out tonight, but for other stuff I'll need to do some more research and implement those more advanced features over the course of the next week.

Thanks for again for the great advice. I appreciate the support

-Ish

:tu


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## wolferber (Aug 15, 2013)

Alright, another day, another update.

Your wish is my command, I present to you Sune Timer 2.01:https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.Baid.basic5&hl=en

1)Instead of a start button, click anywhere to start and stop. 

2)Shortcut to Timer

3) Shake for a new scramble!

4) I killed some bugs

Have a good day, guys

-Ish

:tu


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## pipkiksass (Aug 16, 2013)

Nice one Ish, I like the full-screen timer.

A few more thoughts - 

The click anywhere start/stop is good, and the red screen, but would be nice if it required a sustained press, and changed colours like a stackmat timer, i.e. touch screen and it goes red; releasing while it's red does NOT start the timer. Hold down for >1 second to turn green. Releasing when the screen is green will start the timer. Any touch will stop the timer. 

Would be nice if +2, DNF, and remove time could be applied immediately after the solve, maybe require the user to press the phone's menu button to allow this?

Also, would be useful if the individual times themselves could be clicked on from the statistics tab in order to retrospectively add DNF, +2, or delete. Currently, you have to visit 'Statistics' to get the time number, then go to settings to delete. If there's any way tapping on a time could 'edit' the time (i.e. allow 'delete', 'DNF', '+2' or maybe comment). 

Best times aren't updated when deleting. For example, when testing I stopped the time before 1 second, and my PB showed as 1 second until I quit to the main screen and went back into the timer. 

I tried using inspection time, but couldn't get it to work. I set 15 seconds, but tried starting the clock after about 6 seconds, and the countdown continued, and timer didn't start. If stackmat-style timing were enabled, with 1-second hold to turn the screen from red to green, touch during inspection should stop inspection countdown, and then behaviour should be as described above, i.e. screen goes red, hold for >1 second to turn green, then release to start timer. 

I still think the time units label ("hr:min:sec.cs") on the timer screen could go, and anything beyond MM:SS.cs should be hidden for the majority of puzzle types. I can't see anyone taking hours to tackle any of the puzzles listed, it might take me an hour to do a 7x7, but then I don't have one! 

Maybe options to change the display when timer is running would be good at some stage in the future? Such as 'hide scramble while timer is running', or QQtimer style options (timer updating is either 'on' - time shown in full during solve; 'off' - nothing shown during solve, or 'seconds only' - clock ticks round full seconds only, until the timer is stopped, at which stage centiseconds are shown. 

Awesome work, I'm really enjoying both using and testing your app! Doesn't show that you're a 'beginner programmer' at all. 

Keep the updates coming!


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## pipkiksass (Aug 16, 2013)

frankvanhoof said:


> I would love a timer that allows me to export my times. Perhaps in CSV format or txt



Seconded (as a suggestion for Sune timer). Speedcubetimer for Android allows you to export times to csv, but doesn't have session functions, so always exports all times, which is a pain.


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## KongShou (Aug 16, 2013)

also world cube association, not world cubing association


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## wolferber (Aug 16, 2013)

Hey pipkiksass,

Thanks again for the feedback. Yeah I initially attempted to emulate the stackmat light format, but unfortunately was a hard time figuring how to do that. I'll look into tomorrow.

I have a long list of things I need to get done (+2 and DNF is are on that list). "+2" isn't the problem, it's the DNF that messes up all the statistics. I'll be implementing that as well very soon (or should I say "sune" ). 

I did remove the hrs, and fixed couple bugs in the new update I just released. 

I'm still working on creating sessions and incorporating a graph with different lines for each of those sessions. In addition, I also want to allow the user to export their times.

These feature, plus more customization is coming up in the next update.

-Ish

:tu


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## kcl (Aug 16, 2013)

Any chance you can make an ios version?


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## Michael Womack (Aug 16, 2013)

I just downloaded the Timer i'll get back to you with a review soon.

I can see inspection time be improved. I want it to work like qqTimer where you tap it and then inspection time starts then tap once again to start the timing.


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## wolferber (Aug 16, 2013)

Yeah, I definitely want to make an ios version. Its just gonna take me a couple months to become more familiar with the programming language.

Right now I'm just working to make the android version as best as possible. There should be an update out in couple hours that allows for plus 2 and has bug fixes. Also the inspection time is really buggy right now, depending on which device the app is running on.

Hopefully in a couple of days I'll also have an export csv feature. Its just taking me a bit longer than I thought to implement the code.


-Ish
:tu


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## CADcubing1 (Aug 17, 2013)

That sounds awesome is it for iPhone and iPod too?


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## Michael Womack (Aug 17, 2013)

Thanks for fixing Inspection times.


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## wolferber (Aug 17, 2013)

Its not for Iphone or ipod yet; I'm a new programmer, so I still have to learn the programming language for ios (objective C). I should be starting an ios version in a couple months though. 

I did adjust inspection time, but I still have to work with it some more. A lot of people have said that its buggy and tends to reset. I'll be working on a permanent fix for it though in the next couple days.


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## Kit Clement (Aug 17, 2013)

I noticed in the app that it says you're a CS student at Michigan, have you heard of our cube club? You should definitely try to stop by sometime this semester. We're looking to hold more competitions on campus too.

https://www.facebook.com/umcubing


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## wolferber (Aug 17, 2013)

Yea, I heard about it. I'm actually a rising freshmen. I'll be sure to check it out when I arrive on campus next week.


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## wolferber (Aug 17, 2013)

In other news, version 2.05 is out. It allows "+2" after each solve by hitting the menu button and selecting "+2."

Also statistics,now, update immediately after deleting solves.

-Ish
:tu


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## Michael Womack (Aug 17, 2013)

I noticed that the 2x2 and 4x4 scrambles aren't WCA scramble.


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## wolferber (Aug 17, 2013)

Is the length off?


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## Michael Womack (Aug 17, 2013)

No for the WCA scrambles the 2x2 only used F R U moves while the WCA 4x4 scramble is only F U R D B L Fw Uw Rw.


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## wolferber (Aug 17, 2013)

Alright thanks. I didn't know that. I'll fix it in the next update


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## Michael Womack (Aug 17, 2013)

Cool thanks. 

Also Pyraminx scrambles should be something like this U' L' U' R B' L' R' b' u'


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## Stefan (Aug 17, 2013)

Michael Womack said:


> No for the WCA scrambles the 2x2 only used F R U moves while the WCA 4x4 scramble is only F U R D B L Fw Uw Rw.





wolferber said:


> Alright thanks. I didn't know that. I'll fix it in the next update



Both are because of *how* it computes those scrambles, though. It picks a random state for the puzzle, then computes a move sequence to reach that state from solved state. And the solvers just use those reduced move sets (at least I think so, haven't actually read the details).

Blindly creating a sequence of random moves from those reduced sets of moves might not scramble as well. Might very well for the 2x2, but I have doubts for the 4x4.

Btw, very impressive project for someone who just recently started coding.


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## pipkiksass (Aug 18, 2013)

Hi Ish,

Few more comments:

1) Although Stats are updated when deleting a time, Progress graph is not.

2) When you clear times, the progress chart Y axis labels are crazy

3) When you clear times, PBs all show as 99:99:99. I guess this should show N/A (even if you're using 99:99:99 behind the scenes).

4) Set an inspection time in settings. Goto Timer. Back to Settings and it says 'your inspection time is 0 seconds'.

5) Goto Settings. Set inspection time of 5 seconds. Back to Timer. Start the clock. The clock will stop at 2 seconds for 2 seconds, then start the clock. 

6) Still with inspection @ 5s. Start the inspection timer. Stop it @3s. You are left with no timer running, just 00:00:00

7) Still with inspection @ 5s. Start inspection timer. Hit 'back' to quit to front screen. After 5 seconds, the timer beeps. Quitting should cancel inspection (timer hasn't started if you go back to timer).

8) Inspection timer should end with a visual prompt as well as audio. If you manage to apply the stackmat-style colours, then the screen should be red during inspection, then flash to green and stay green during timing. 

9) I know I've said it before, but get rid of the 'Min:Sec.Cs' label. We all know what the timer units are, it's just cluttering up the screen.

10) Hide the scramble once the screen has been touched (i.e. inspection/timer has started).

11) Include the scramble in stats?

12) +2 works well, but there's no means of removing the +2 if added in error. Clicking +2 again adds 4 seconds to the solve time, I think it should toggle the +2. The only time you'd want +4/+6/... would be for BLD, and if this is the case, it should read +4 or +6, not +2, but add 4 or 6 seconds. As I say, I think clicking +2 on a solve that is already +2 should cancel the +2. 

13) The label for the 'New Scramble' menu button option is clipped. Just make it 'New Scramble' - I know this can also be achieved by shaking, but this info won't fit in the label!

That's all I have for now - just keeping you on your toes! ;-)

Edit: One more - race timer should show scramble on both sides.


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## wolferber (Aug 18, 2013)

Hey pipkiksass ,

Hahah wow. I guess I have a lot of work ahead of me.

Thanks again for all the feedback. I was also noticing something funky going on with the inspection time. I'll see what's up with that.

I'll definitely clean up the formatting, fix the bugs and get back to you with another update tomorrow.

Appreciate you keeping me on my toes.

-Ish
:tu


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## wolferber (Aug 18, 2013)

Grr. This inspection time glitch is driving me crazy.

Guess tonight's an all-nighter.

#letsfixthis

-Ish
:tu


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## wolferber (Aug 20, 2013)

Alright, so i was gone for a couple days, but I didn't leave guys without an update!

Sune Time (Version 2.20): https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.Baid.basic5&hl=en

So with this update, I made minor tweaks with the main timer, but mostly focused on improving the Race Timer. Race timer now includes a scoreboard as well as scrambles for all WCA puzzles.

Also, I threw in a neat graph that plots both player's times on the graph to compare progress.

I'm going to be throwing out another update tonight, just to improve the look of the race timer, as well as get rid of the buttons (touching your side of the screen will stop your individual timer).

Also, I'm still working on other features such as exporting times and scrambles, but it seems this is taking a lot longer than anticipated. Any features that you may want me add before I leave for college this week, let me know.

Thanks

-Ish
:tu


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## Michael Womack (Aug 20, 2013)

The Pyraminx scrambles need to be fixed by changing the Notation to include these moves B,U,L,R,b,u,l,r


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## Bhargav777 (Aug 20, 2013)

I get scrambles like F B F2 B' D U2 D' which make no sense. Please fix that  thanks.


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## wolferber (Aug 20, 2013)

Alright, so I definitely need to fix scrambles.

I've never really messed around with a pyraminx. So if I'm understanding this right: 

the first 6-8 characters of the scramble need to be uppercase and include: B,U,L,R

and the last 2-4 need to be lower case and include b, u, l, r

is that correct?


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## Michael Womack (Aug 20, 2013)

wolferber said:


> Alright, so I definitely need to fix scrambles.
> 
> I've never really messed around with a pyraminx. So if I'm understanding this right:
> 
> ...



Yep that is correct.


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## wolferber (Aug 20, 2013)

Alright thanks, I'll make the fix


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## Stefan (Aug 20, 2013)

Don't just do 6-8 random moves, though. That's probably not good enough. Either do sufficiently many random moves, or make a random state scrambler.


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## wolferber (Aug 20, 2013)

Ok, that makes sense. I'll be sure to do that in the next update.

Sune Timer (version 2.23):https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.Baid.basic5&hl=en

This version has better scrambles, but as mentioned above, will be improved further in next update. You won't get ridiculous scrambles like U2 D' U anymore.

Also, race timer has a fantastic new look. No more stop button, just tap your side of the screen to stop your individual timer. Also the scoreboard has a nicer look.

-Ish

:tu


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## wolferber (Sep 15, 2013)

Whoo! Excited to finally release another update (Release date: today, in about 2 hours). This one shows upcoming WCA competitions in EVERY country!

Also updated world records (Congrats to Feliks btw!).

I sincerely apologize that I haven't been able to put out all the updates that I was planning. My freshmen year in college is kicking my butt!

I'm really on working on learning new programming techniques to further improve this app. Next week I'll be MHacks, the country's largest hackathon!! It should be a lot of fun, and hopefully I'll pick up better programming methodologies that will help me improve Sune Timer.

Thanks for the support guys!

-Ish
:tu


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## Tim Major (Sep 15, 2013)

wolferber said:


> Alright, so I definitely need to fix scrambles.I've never really messed around with a pyraminx. So if I'm understanding this right: the first 6-8 characters of the scramble need to be uppercase and include: B,U,L,Rand the last 2-4 need to be lower case and include b, u, l, ris that correct?


http://www.jaapsch.net/puzzles/pyraminx.htm7 moves would get it to less than a third of all states. Make it maybe 12-14 moves+tips.


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## Stefan (Sep 15, 2013)

Tim Major said:


> http://www.jaapsch.net/puzzles/pyraminx.htm7 moves would get it to less than a third of all states. Make it maybe 12-14 moves+tips.



Before WCA had a random state scrambler, *25* moves were the standard:
http://web.archive.org/web/20080517121644/http://www.worldcubeassociation.org/regulations#scrambling


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## wolferber (Sep 24, 2013)

My twitter handle is @IshIsDeep if you ever have feedback. Its probably much faster way to get int contact me with, that anything else


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## Lucas Garron (Sep 25, 2013)

Stefan said:


> Before WCA had a random state scrambler, *25* moves were the standard:
> http://web.archive.org/web/20080517121644/http://www.worldcubeassociation.org/regulations#scrambling



https://www.worldcubeassociation.org/regulations/history/files/regulations2008.html#scrambling

It baffles me that very few apps on mobile are doing random state, though, and replacing it with something vey inferior. There are some easy-to-adapt solutions out there (although I admit they're not as immediately ready as they could be).


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## Stefan (Sep 25, 2013)

Lucas Garron said:


> https://www.worldcubeassociation.org/regulations/history/files/regulations2008.html#scrambling



Ha, why didn't I think of that...



Lucas Garron said:


> It baffles me that very few apps on mobile are doing random state, though, and replacing it with something vey inferior. There are some easy-to-adapt solutions out there (although I admit they're not as immediately ready as they could be).



Judging partly by how often their scrambles include stuff like U U2 or R R', I have a feeling that many aren't made by cubers, and they might just not know that there is something better.


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## AvGalen (Sep 25, 2013)

Lucas Garron said:


> https://www.worldcubeassociation.org/regulations/history/files/regulations2008.html#scrambling
> 
> It baffles me that very few apps on mobile are doing random state, though, and replacing it with something vey inferior. There are some easy-to-adapt solutions out there (although I admit they're not as immediately ready as they could be).


Random state is hard! Maybe not for you and Stefan (anymore) but it is for most everyone else. Having a "pick 25 times from R,U,F,L,D,B,R2,U2,F2,L2,D2,B2,R',U',F',L',D',B'" is quite a lot easier than understanding transformations, matrices, 2-state-generators, IDA, pruningtables, etc.
And for most people "a scramble is a scramble"


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## Stefan (Sep 25, 2013)

AvGalen said:


> understanding transformations, matrices, 2-state-generators, IDA, pruningtables, etc.



I'm sure Lucas wasn't talking about 5x5. Pyraminx doesn't even have a million states (ignoring the tips), simple BFS should get the job done.

And Lucas was talking about re-using existing solutions.


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## AvGalen (Sep 25, 2013)

Stefan said:


> I'm sure Lucas wasn't talking about 5x5. Pyraminx doesn't even have a million states (ignoring the tips), simple BFS should get the job done.
> 
> And Lucas was talking about re-using existing solutions.


I am willing to bet cold hard cash (or cookies) that > 50% of all people that ever wrote a scrambler don't know what BFS stands for. (burden of proof is not on me!)
It is amazing what we can now do in JavaScript that was not doable 10 years ago, but I don't know of any sourcecode for optimal scramblers except the javascript ones.


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## cubizh (Sep 25, 2013)

Perhaps a thread debating random state scrambling algorithms and their implementations in several programming languages (with links to sources) should be created.


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## Stefan (Sep 25, 2013)

AvGalen said:


> I am willing to bet cold hard cash (or cookies) that > 50% of all people that ever wrote a scrambler don't know what BFS stands for.



My point wasn't that it's easy, my point was that it's not as hard as you made it sound (with all those fancy terms you used). Also, they don't need to know what BFS stands for. I didn't know the term at all, back when I (re-)invented the algorithm (when I started at university, didn't know much, but had to guide a robot through a maze). Doesn't take a genius to come up with it.



AvGalen said:


> I don't know of any sourcecode for optimal scramblers except the javascript ones.



Wait, wait, why change the subject to optimal ones?


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## wolferber (Sep 26, 2013)

Well, I would be more than happy to incorporate random state scrambles if anyone knows where I can find the algorithms to that. From what I know about it, it is extremely complex to develop from scratch.


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## Carson (Sep 26, 2013)

Just throwing in my 2 cents. Part of coding an app (for most of those who are not coding for their livelihood) is solving problems and the sense of accomplishment for the code you come up with. A few years ago, I created a timer/scrambler for Windows Mobile. (pre-Windows Phone) I started out with some scrambling code given to me by others. I gradually replaced it with my own code, even though my code was often not as optimized and was not random state (even for 2x2). The reason for this was that it was MY code. The scramblers did improve, and I believe I did have a random state 2x2 back in eventually before that OS died taking my app with it. If I decide to write another scrambler/timer app, it will also include my own non-random state scramblers at first. If I, at some point, learn how to code a random state scrambler, then I will write one.


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## AvGalen (Sep 26, 2013)

Stefan said:


> My point wasn't that it's easy, my point was that it's not as hard as you made it sound (with all those fancy terms you used). Also, they don't need to know what BFS stands for. I didn't know the term at all, back when I (re-)invented the algorithm (when I started at university, didn't know much, but had to guide a robot through a maze). Doesn't take a genius to come up with it.
> 
> 
> 
> Wait, wait, why change the subject to optimal ones?


So you are claiming that you did it, but that it doesn't take a genius to do it. I call lack of proof 
My main point is stat providing a random scramble is easy (as long as you don't care about true randomness, let's not get into that discussion). Making a random state scrambler is A LOT harder. I would compare the first with running a few km (everyone can do it with a bit of effort) and the latter with a backflip (apparently everyone can learn it, but hardly anyone does)

Sorry for mentioning optimality, I just meant random state. But I still meant "_I don't know of any sourcecode for random state scramblers except the javascript ones."_


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