# Help with easy PLLs and OLLs



## badmephisto (May 16, 2010)

Hello everyone,
I'm in process of reviewing all my OLLs and PLLs, and I'm looking for suggestions on which algs to improve. I'd like the primary focus to be on easiness of remembering, rather then on speed (as long as it is a reasonable trade off)

My current versions I'm considering are here:

http://badmephisto.com/pllpagecompact.php
http://badmephisto.com/ollpagecompact.php

I'd appreciate if some people scanned through them and suggested maybe some modifications, if you know of easier versions. (Or give me link if you think some particular list of OLLs/PLLs is REALLY good, in terms of memory work)

Thanks,
-meph


PS: I was a little sad to see that the wiki OLLPLL page is now in favor of quantity rather than quality


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## Muesli (May 16, 2010)

Hmm. Are the pages easily printed?


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## jiggy (May 16, 2010)

Hi Meph, welcome back! For case 44 (on the OLL page of your site) I always preferred

(r U R' U') M (U R U' R')

It's the inverse of your case 17 and has a very nice flow to it. Obviously, the M could be swapped out for a R r' the user wanted.

Good to see you cubing again, I was starting to think you had decided to stop.

EDIT:

PLL:

Z-Perm: (R U R' U) (R' U' R' U) (R U' R' U') R2 U R
For J(a), why not mirror J(b)?

OLL: (not including set-ups)

44: (r U R' U') M (U R U' R')
54: [F (R U R' U') F'] U2 (R U R' U') (R' F R F')_____[This is basically case 1, U2, followed by case 20. Two very easy cases, easy to remember]
55: [F' (L' U' L U) F] (R U R' U') (R' F R F')________[Very similar to the above, with no U2 in the middle]

(I'll keep adding to this post as I think of them.)


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## Reptile (May 16, 2010)

I LOVE YOU BADMEPHISTO!


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## eastamazonantidote (May 16, 2010)

I have a few suggestions for your PLLs:

If you're going to make one of the N PLLs the <R,U,L> alg, why not make the second one the mirror of it. {(L U' R) U2 (L' U R')} {(L U' R) U2 (L' U R')} U.

Why not make the second J permutation [L' U' L F] {[L' U' L U] [L F'] [L2 U L] U}? I'm a fan of [L U' R'] [U L' U2] [R U'] [R' U2 R] for this J and [R U2 R'] [U' R U2] [L' U R'] [U' L] for the other. The shortness of the alg makes it fast and easy to remember.

I think that the x' [R U' R' D] [R U R' D'] [R U R' D] [R U' R' D'] E permutation is more easily memorizable and can be very fast.

Maybe make the U PLLs <M,U> or at least give both options. For the record, they are: M2 U M U2 M' U M2 and M2 U' M U2 M' U' M2.


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## 4Chan (May 16, 2010)

badmephisto said:


> I was a little sad to see that the wiki OLLPLL page is now in favor of quantity rather than quality



How true indeed.


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## Toad (May 16, 2010)

For the V and F perms I've always found it much more helpful to view the "d" as "U y" because that's where it falls naturally to regrip... Just a thought...


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## Carson (May 16, 2010)

R's and J's as mirrors make memorization a lot easier. Whether these are the fastest algs is certainly debatable, but I like them.



J.a - [R' U L'] [U2 R U' R' U2] [R L U']
J.b - [L U' R'] [U2' L' U L U2'] [L' R' U]
R.a - [L U2 L' U2] [L F'] [L' U' L U] [L F] L2' U
R.b - [R' U2' R U2'] [R' F] [R U R' U'] [R' F'] R2 U'


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## oprah62 (May 16, 2010)

Vperm = R' U R' U' y R' F' R2 U' R' U R' F R F 
e perm = R2 U R' U' y (RUR'U') x2 R U R' y'R U' R2
f perm =R U R' U' R' U R U2 L' R' U R U' L U' R U' R' 
n(left side switch) = L U' L' y' JPERM(RIGHT) F U' F'


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## chavak (May 17, 2010)

OLL is tough to memorize, I was wondering, isn't it better to solve upto a known trigger level, rather than completely solve it. By doing so you only have to memorize a short move followed by the trigger.

Just a thought!


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## zgyfjch (May 17, 2010)

MY PLL10:
turn your cube Y2 then:
(R U'U')(R' U2)(R B' R' U')(R U R B R2' U)

MY PLL19:
(U R'U')(R U'R)(U R U')(R'U R U)(R2 U')(R'U)

MY PLL20: 
turn your cube Y like this
-------- ------- -------
-- <---- ------- ---> --
-------- ------- -------
-------- ------- -------
-------- ------- -------
-- <---- ------- ---> --
-------- ------- -------
then
F'(r U R' U') (r' F R2) x’z RU’R’D’ (RUR’)


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## Litz (May 17, 2010)

I learned all of your OLL/PLLs back when I was learning those, and I found them pretty easy to memorize. All the OLL cases were really easy until the last few, but I didn't really find good algs for the bad cases either so just leave them like that. 

One suggestion though: To this day I still use all the OLL/PLLs I learned on your site, except one. I changed the E-perm to x' R U' R' D R U R' D' R U R' D R U' R' D'. The E-perm you had before wasn't that one though, but I don't like that one either. This one is fast and easy to memorize.

anyway, thanks for making those OLL/PLL pages. They were really helpful when I needed them.


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## joey (May 17, 2010)

4Chan said:


> badmephisto said:
> 
> 
> > I was a little sad to see that the wiki OLLPLL page is now in favor of quantity rather than quality
> ...



I think "quality" of an alg is really defined by the person using it, so I don't mind having lots of algs to pick from.


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## riffz (May 17, 2010)

Honestly, if people are going to go to the trouble of learning all 57 OLLs I think they should just learn the ones that are fastest to execute. Having 2-look OLL algs that are easy to remember is one thing, but if you're going to learn them all then I think you're already taking cubing seriously enough to warrant having fast algs.

That's just my opinion as I learnt quite a few OLLs from your website and then had to relearn them later on as they weren't as fast as they could be. That's not to discredit you though, as I have learned a lot from your videos and website, so thank you for that!


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## badmephisto (May 17, 2010)

Thanks everyone for suggestions I'll be reviewing all this.
I agree Litz, I'll be changing the E perm to that.

Joey: I'm not so sure I agree with this "everyone likes different algs" thing. Every case has at most 2 (MAX 3) algs that are fast and reasonable for 99% of population. Doing more than that is an unnecessary overkill that just wastes all of our time.

Riffz: I absolutely don't believe my algorithms to be slow. Can you point to the ones that you had to re-learn? I've made switches for the easier to remember alg if the two are not more than like 10% difference in speed , but I've never preferred a significantly slower algorithm just because it was easy. And if I did, I almost always mention the fast alternative. 
Pfft


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## riffz (May 17, 2010)

badmephisto said:


> Riffz: I absolutely don't believe my algorithms to be slow. Can you point to the ones that you had to re-learn? I've made switches for the easier to remember alg if the two are not more than like 10% difference in speed , but I've never preferred a significantly slower algorithm just because it was easy. And if I did, I almost always mention the fast alternative.
> Pfft



They're definitely not slow by any means. I never said that. I'm just of the opinion that its a much better idea to sort through a list yourself and choose what's best for you. But at the same time I understand that you're trying to simplify the list of algs for people so that this process is quicker.


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## Zarlor (May 17, 2010)

Hi, I decided to sign up on the forums and stop lurking to make this post.

I recently started cubing (a few months now) after I learned how to solve via pogobat's YouTube videos (layer by layer). I then learned the Petrus method. I read about Fredrich, but I deem it too hardcore for me to try and memorize all that.

In the past few weeks I found out about the 2-look OLL and PLL methods which I didn't know about before. They seem like a good middle-ground for me. I can deal with memorizing that many algs. I then found badmephisto's wonderful charts which I printed out and refer to often.

I know this is the speedsolving forum, but I cube 100% for fun and not to get the absolute lowest time possible. I would like to be relatively quick about solving, but I do find great benefit in having easy to remember algs. It's more fun for me to do the long form of the blinker even though he has a faster alg underneath it. I'm more likely to remember it I think as well.

I just wanted to say thanks to badmephisto for making the sheets and I agree with the stance he takes on them. I'll be looking for your updated sheets to try out!


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## spunkymp4 (May 17, 2010)

I think Thrawst's page has the easiest N perms.

Na: L U' R U2 L' U R' L U' R U2 L' U R' U
Nb: L' U R' U2 L U' R L' U R' U2 L U' R


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## choza244 (May 17, 2010)

Wow nice to see that you haven´t stopped cubing, btw i´m new and all i learned was from your videos, thanks a lot.

Ok about the algs, i really didn´t like the N(b) perm, is very easy to remember but for me is not easy to execute, so i use this one, that i think has more flow lol.

y' R' U R U' R' F' U' F R U R' F R' F' R U' R 

i think is easy to do and the memo is not hard


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## jiggy (May 17, 2010)

Zarlor said:


> I know this is the speedsolving forum, but I cube 100% for fun and not to get the absolute lowest time possible. I would like to be relatively quick about solving, but I do find great benefit in having easy to remember algs. It's more fun for me to do the long form of the blinker even though he has a faster alg underneath it. I'm more likely to remember it I think as well.


Welcome to the forums! This is completely off topic, but if you're in it for the fun I highly recommend Human Thistlethwaite. It's a really different method and I always have fun when I use it.
Here's a tutorial if you decide you're interested:
Part 1
Part 2


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## qqwref (May 17, 2010)

badmephisto said:


> PS: I was a little sad to see that the wiki OLLPLL page is now in favor of quantity rather than quality



I believe this is the *point* of the wiki OLL and PLL pages. Individual people can always give a list of the algs they use but the wiki is a good place to put all the algs for anyone who might want to try others.


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## MichaelErskine (May 17, 2010)

qqwref said:


> badmephisto said:
> 
> 
> > PS: I was a little sad to see that the wiki OLLPLL page is now in favor of quantity rather than quality
> ...



The wiki is "The Right Place" for algs -- I'd go further than what we have right now in the wiki to include who uses which algs and why. Why not have quantity _and_ quality?


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## Rook (May 17, 2010)

I really like this F Perm:

(R' U' F') T Perm (F U R)

The last F cancels out with the F' at the end of the T, turning it into:

(R' U' F') (R U R' U') R' F R2 U' R' U' (R U R' U R)

(Compliments to Lucas Garron who posted it here.)


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## gavnasty (May 17, 2010)

Wow, these OLLs look pretty simple to learn. I'll probably be using the site to learn the rest of the OLLs, Thanks.

Anyway, I just figured out one for 53.

F' (L' U' L U) F2 (U R U' R') F'

I hope i did that notation right.


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## bluecloe45 (May 17, 2010)

Reptile said:


> I LOVE YOU BADMEPHISTO!



aweosme


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## bluecloe45 (May 17, 2010)

gavnasty said:


> Wow, these OLLs look pretty simple to learn. I'll probably be using the site to learn the rest of the OLLs, Thanks.
> 
> Anyway, I just figured out one for 53.
> 
> ...



sweet


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## bwatkins (May 18, 2010)

for the F perm i use (R' U' F') the the T perm you have listed except it ends in U R instead of F'. Great for memorization and quite easy to execute as well as the T-perm is a quick one!

EDIT: I used your tutorial and those exact pictures / algs to learn my PLLs and that one was my least favorite on your list.


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## foxfan352 (May 18, 2010)

The oll headlights case I got from lance the blue knight 

headlights to the left
(RUR'U')(RU'R'U2)*2(RUR'U'


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## choza244 (May 18, 2010)

Rook said:


> I really like this F Perm:
> 
> (R' U' F') T Perm (F U R)
> 
> ...



 really nice alg for the F perm


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## DavidWoner (May 18, 2010)

randomtoad said:


> For the V and F perms I've always found it much more helpful to view the "d" as "U y" because *that's where it falls naturally to regrip*... Just a thought...



says you >_>


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## lilkdub503 (May 18, 2010)

4Chan said:


> badmephisto said:
> 
> 
> > I was a little sad to see that the wiki OLLPLL page is now in favor of quantity rather than quality
> ...



In this case, I think quality is determined almost solely through quantity. If I can scan through the algorithms, find one I like, then that was better than going to your page, Bob Burton's page, Lars' page, Macky's, and Dan's. It's quicker, which speeds up the quality of the learning curve.


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## rubiknewbie (May 18, 2010)

For Jb perm, I use R U2’ R’ U’ R U2’ L’ U R’ U’ L.


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## badmephisto (May 18, 2010)

lilkdub503 said:


> 4Chan said:
> 
> 
> > badmephisto said:
> ...



Except you're wrong because if you actually did go on all those websites, you would end up with a set of 1 to 3 algs per case because we all share A LOT of algorithms (because those algorithms are good), and THOSE are the ones that should be listed there.
Instead on the wiki you are presented with a choice of 20, most of them completely worthless!!!

Here, example of something listed for Uperm:
R U R' U' L' U' L U2 R U' R' U' L' U L
Would you SERIOUSLY consider using that as your U-perm? Is that what you are telling me? "Speeds up learning curve", ROFL


Anyway, I'm done, thanks everyone for contributions, I put up the augmented OLLs and PLLs on my website. I mostly changed the last few PLLs. OLLs went largely unmodified. It will become clear in a few days why I went through this now. (I didn't just randomly think of it! )


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## riffz (May 18, 2010)

badmephisto said:


> Here, example of something listed for Uperm:
> R U R' U' L' U' L U2 R U' R' U' L' U L
> Would you SERIOUSLY consider using that as your U-perm? Is that what you are telling me? "Speeds up learning curve", ROFL



Just because the algs are most likely not a top choice for speedsolving doesn't mean we should discard them. There's often a lot of talk in the theory section about creating your own algorithms and using different generators, so to some that alg may just be interesting.

We also have FMC, feet solving, OH and blindfolded, so what you can execute fastest with 2 hands is not necessarily the best alg in these cases. For BLD you also have to consider that, quite often, you will need to do a setup move every time you use an alg unless you pick one that starts from the position you require.


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## Haru (May 18, 2010)

Case #30 (OLL 52)
y' (F R U R' U F') y' U' R U' R'
Case #28 (OLL 38)
y' (F R U R2 U' F') y U r U r'

These can be understood in the same way of case #32 (OLL 18). 
(do modified case #1 (OLL 45) then fix the F2L)


Case #37 (OLL 42)
S' (F R U R' U' F') d M'

This is easy to remember.


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## MichaelErskine (May 18, 2010)

badmephisto said:


> Except you're wrong because if you actually did go on all those websites, you would end up with a set of 1 to 3 algs per case because we all share A LOT of algorithms (because those algorithms are good), and THOSE are the ones that should be listed there.
> Instead on the wiki you are presented with a choice of 20, most of them completely worthless!!!


Please feel free to add detail to the wiki: perhaps saying why you like/dislike particular algorithms. This request isn't particularly aimed at yourself, badmephisto, rather at everybody here to make the wiki into a more useful resource.


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## Edward (May 18, 2010)

Maybe for the wiki, the most commonly used/fastest algs could be in bold?


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## Zarlor (May 18, 2010)

Badmephisto, I see you have the new algs on your website, but could you please update your PDFs with the new algs too? (The new E-perm for instance).

Much thanks!


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## RyanReese09 (May 18, 2010)

omg no no. put up a page with ur old algoritrhms. PLEASE.


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## Tyjet66 (May 18, 2010)

badmephisto said:


> I agree Litz, I'll be changing the E perm to that.



Damn, and I had just learned your E perm yesterday. :fp


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## Chapuunka (May 18, 2010)

Tyjet66 said:


> badmephisto said:
> 
> 
> > I agree Litz, I'll be changing the E perm to that.
> ...



I really like his old E perm. Haven't tried the new one though.

EDIT: Tried the new one, I don't like the D's. But the new one would be much easier to learn.


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## MichaelErskine (May 19, 2010)

Chapuunka said:


> Tyjet66 said:
> 
> 
> > badmephisto said:
> ...



OK, so this is what I'm talking about: why try to to decide what algs are best for everybody (impossible task) when a simple list of algs to try and choose from is so much more... erm... betterer


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## riffz (May 19, 2010)

RyanReese09 said:


> omg no no. put up a page with ur old algoritrhms. PLEASE.



They're probably on the wiki. See how useful it is?


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## badmephisto (May 19, 2010)

E perm is one of those cases where people do dispute the best algorithm (unlike things like U, etc.) and there are around 2-3 good algs for it.
I should have let the old alg there, ill put it back soon.

riffz, if you really believe all that then you should fire up Cube Explorer, have it solve the U perm, and watch it spit out thousands of algorithms all at around 10 moves. Maybe you should go ahead and add all that to wiki. The more choices the better right? 
I will not dispute this furtherer


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## chris410 (May 19, 2010)

For the dual headlights (OLL) I use 2((R U R') U (R U2 R')) I find that it is much faster than the F 3(RUR'U')F' *thanks to Nathan for showing me this.

For the PLL H-Perm (for those who do not like M slices) I use: 2(R2 U2)(R2 U) 2(R2 U2) (R2 U') easy to learn as well.

Again for those who do not like the M slices for the Z Perm I use: (R' U') R2 U ( R U R') (U' R U R U') (R U R') U2


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## buelercuber (May 19, 2010)

Rook said:


> I really like this F Perm:
> 
> (R' U' F') T Perm (F U R)
> 
> ...



that is the best F perm ever its a second faster than my old one. THANK YOU


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## Edward (May 19, 2010)

chris410 said:


> For the dual headlights (OLL) I use 2((R U R') U (R U2 R')) I find that it is much faster than the F 3(RUR'U')F' *thanks to Nathan for showing me this.
> 
> For the PLL H-Perm (for those who do not like M slices) I use: 2(R2 U2)(R2 U) 2(R2 U2) (R2 U') easy to learn as well.
> 
> Again for those who do not like the M slices for the Z Perm I use: (R' U') R2 U ( R U R') (U' R U R U') (R U R') U2



Hey man, here's a really nice alg for the double headlights case.
R U2 R' U' R U R' U' R U' R'
Easy to learn, and very fast. What you are doing is just a double sune (if you didn't already know that [you probably did]).


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## riffz (May 19, 2010)

badmephisto said:


> E perm is one of those cases where people do dispute the best algorithm (*unlike things like U*, etc.) and there are around 2-3 good algs for it.
> I should have let the old alg there, ill put it back soon.



A lot of people use different U perms involving the M slice, and some still prefer the R U ones.



badmephisto said:


> riffz, if you really believe all that then you should fire up Cube Explorer, have it solve the U perm, and watch it spit out thousands of algorithms all at around 10 moves. Maybe you should go ahead and add all that to wiki. The more choices the better right?
> I will not dispute this furtherer



Alright, you raise a good point. Perhaps we should try and push the popular ones to the top of the list. That way there's still a large pool of algs but the commonly used ones are near the top.


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## splinteh (May 20, 2010)

Great to see you Back!


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## rubiknewbie (May 20, 2010)

buelercuber said:


> Rook said:
> 
> 
> > I really like this F Perm:
> ...



I tried it and is not good at the 1st part of it. But I hate my old algorithm more and more and may revisit it.


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## rubiknewbie (May 20, 2010)

Edward said:


> chris410 said:
> 
> 
> > For the dual headlights (OLL) I use 2((R U R') U (R U2 R')) I find that it is much faster than the F 3(RUR'U')F' *thanks to Nathan for showing me this.
> ...



I might try this. Have been using R U R' U R U' R' U R U2' R', but R U R' U' beats R U R' U!


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## jackdexter75 (May 20, 2010)

I say you should make an OLL Trainer now. =P haha
I love the way everything you have is. all your oll and pll are the ones I use. Keep it up bro


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