# CFCP solvers what are you setting up with your last F2L insert?



## SenileGenXer (Dec 2, 2013)

I figured out how to control edge orientation with my last F2L insert and got so excited I posted a video before I was really proficient at it. I watched Rowe Hessler's OLS videos and realized so much more was possible. I have limited mental Alg storage but just watching them I realized it was somewhat like block building the last layer color. Now I can intuitively orient edges plus a corner or two while doing the last F2l pair. This reduces my OLL cases to just Headlights, Camelion, Bowtie, Sune, anti-Sune, or OLL skip and gives me great look-ahead.

What is everyone else doing with their last F2L insert?

Edit: Please forgive the typo in the headline.


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## EMI (Dec 2, 2013)

SenileGenXer said:


> I figured out how to control edge orientation with my last F2L insert and got so excited I posted a video before I was really proficient at it. I watched Rowe Hessler's OLS videos and realized so much more was possible. I have limited mental Alg storage but just watching them I realized it was somewhat like block building the last layer color. Now I can intuitively orient edges plus a corner or two while doing the last F2l pair. This reduces my OLL cases to just Headlights, Camelion, Bowtie, Sune and anti-Sune and gives me great look-ahead.
> 
> What is everyone else doing with their last F2L insert?



Looking ahead into OLL and, if possible, force OLL skip! I usually don't orient edges inserting my last pair on a normal 3x3 speedsolving, only for OH and bigcubes sometimes.


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## Millet (Dec 2, 2013)

I recently switched to ZZ, so I just insert it. Before I found ZZ I used intuitive edge control to get one of the COLL cases.


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## Kirjava (Dec 2, 2013)

SenileGenXer said:


> What is everyone else doing with their last F2L insert?



not much, OLLCP was too much fun


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## ottozing (Dec 2, 2013)

Mostly just getting an idea of what OLL type I'll get and influencing EO if I think it's advantageous. I also like setting up to WV if it's the FR slot.


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## cubeninjaIV (Dec 2, 2013)

I know full VHF2L (edge control) but use it selectively in normal speedsolves, and most of the time when doing OH and big cubes. i also know about half of WV but dont use it too often. 

I'll have to agree with Kirjava, OLLCP is really fun, but i dont know much of it yet.


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## TDM (Dec 2, 2013)

If there's an easy VHLS case I'll do that, but unless it's really easy nothing. Just insert and then OLL.
I also use ZZ for OH, and I phase during the LS.


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## pipkiksass (Dec 2, 2013)

I really enjoyed your edge control video - hadn't you been in hospital or something? 

When you say that was before you were really proficient, does that mean you've refined your method since then? I think why I enjoyed your last tutorial was because I learn by comprehension, rather than by rote, so a tutorial where someone explains WHY something happens is infinitely more valuable to me than 'when you get case x, perform sledgehammer, U2, hedgeslammer because it works', etc.. I also have a limited alg store, but I have a comparatively limitless capacity for remembering stuff that I understand!!! 

If you feel like making another video explaining the concept of intuitive last layer block building, then please feel free - it sounds really fun!

TIA


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## SenileGenXer (Dec 2, 2013)

Eventually almost every case wound up being VHLS. When I learned how to see everything going on and got better look a head those algs wound up being what I was doing in almost every case. This partial corner control is still way way new to me and still really experimental. It's going to be a while before I have anything good enough for a video for that. I will do one soon, I learned a ton of things from the comments on the two edge control videos.

Next video I want to make is edge control on a megaminx and my slacker last layer. That's way overdue but I don't get my house free of screaming kids or much time to do it.


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## pipkiksass (Dec 3, 2013)

SenileGenXer said:


> Eventually almost every case wound up being VHLS. When I learned how to see everything going on and got better look a head those algs wound up being what I was doing in almost every case. This partial corner control is still way way new to me and still really experimental. It's going to be a while before I have anything good enough for a video for that. I will do one soon, I learned a ton of things from the comments on the two edge control videos.



In other news - I looked up your original post after my last comment here, and was playing with edge control during some slow solves today, and managed to predict and force an OLL skip from one edge oriented before F2L4 by pushing an edge up from 'the slot', then sledgehammer to orient last two edges and corners! Thanks are due - I'm going to have fun playing with this. :-D


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## ianliu64 (Dec 3, 2013)

Screw last slot tricks.
I just use 3LLL.


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## kcl (Dec 4, 2013)

Uh not much. If I see an easy OLL skip via either sledgehammer or WV that I know I'll do it..


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## SenileGenXer (Dec 4, 2013)

Just a thought experiment. Might go way beyond last layer orientation. If you have the cross and all the slots but the right front slot, you make that right front pair put them up against the oriented Up-Front edge and turn them U' like this...



How many cases do you have with three edges (at least one oriented) and four corners? Are you ever more than 14 optimal moves from solving the cube? All your blank cubies are directly manipulable with the sexy move, A-perms, and Sunes anything else easy?


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## AHornbaker (Dec 4, 2013)

I put down Full OLS because I don't know what else to call it. I do a modified Petrus solve, then depending on the F2L case I will choose either a Winter Variation, Summer Variation, or EJF2L alg, which is an OLL skip for every F2L case. Not exactly OLS, but I don't use OCLL unless I don't know/forget a case.

In the interest of algs, this isn't too bad. 27+27+16=70 algs for full OLL skip (disregarding edges). Significantly less than CLS (104) and only a few more than OLL (57).

Here are two pictures I use for recognition and memorization:


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## TDM (Dec 4, 2013)

SenileGenXer said:


> How many cases do you have with three edges (at least one oriented) and four corners?


3 edges = 3!*2^2
4 corners = 4!*3^3
Number of cases including permutation parity: ((3!*2^2)*(4!*3^3))/2 = 7776.


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## SenileGenXer (Dec 4, 2013)

TDM said:


> 3 edges = 3!*2^2
> 4 corners = 4!*3^3
> Number of cases including permutation parity: ((3!*2^2)*(4!*3^3))/2 = 7776.



Not as easy as I thought. Still using the configuration I guess I'll call it copperhead View attachment 3297

and working to solve the cube if I just orient the edges my last layer cases are reduced to the same number as ZBLL? Less?
My edges if they are oriented then there are only three and they are restricted to being in only three slots. If I made it two-look I could solve the corners in 42 cases and deal with only three oriented edges?

If I do copperhead with oriented edges and put only one more edge in place (say opposite color edge in F2L slot) then shoot for solved cube wouldn't my cases reduce to 42(all corners)*2 = 84 very short algs?


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## TDM (Dec 4, 2013)

SenileGenXer said:


> and working to solve the cube if I just orient the edges my last layer cases are reduced to the same number as ZBLL? Less?


A lot more. You don't have one for every ZBLL, you have one _for each AUF_ of every ZBLL. That's four times the amount. I calculate it to be ((3!)*(4!*3^3))/2 = 1944.


> My edges if they are oriented then there are only three and they are restricted to being in only three slots. If I made it two-look I could solve the corners in 42 cases and deal with only three oriented edges?


Corners would not be 42 cases. You'd have 162 cases. Once again, there's AUF for each COLL case (or you could view it as I did: 6 for each of the 27 WV cases).


> If I do copperhead with oriented edges and put only one more edge in place (say opposite color edge in F2L slot) then shoot for solved cube wouldn't my cases reduce to 42(all corners)*2 = 84 very short algs?


Then it's like one case for every case of ZZLL; ((2!)*(4!*3^3))/2 = 648. If you're going to be setting up like that, then something like ZZ-b would probably be faster. It's the same thing (get one LL edge and the one opposite it into some places, and then solve from there), but with less cases.
I think that maybe the 162 algs for COLL+LS in one go (which is what CLS should be: corners and last slot) could be good. I've seen 2 other people ask about it in the last week or two, and I think it could be a good idea. But there are a lot of algs/cases and I don't know how easy recognition would be. E: It's a similar number of algs to ZZ-b, so I don't know if it would actually be better. Depends on the recog, which would probably be very difficult.


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## rj (Dec 4, 2013)

I orient all edges. I like the idea of WV, and I'm thinking about learning it.


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## Hays (Dec 4, 2013)

#1case1alg4lyfe


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## Deleted member 19792 (Dec 4, 2013)

This season's variation




Hays said:


> #1case1alg4lyfe




In the name of V-Cube patents! I never saw that before!


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## TDM (Dec 4, 2013)

rj said:


> I orient all edges. I like the idea of WV, and I'm thinking about learning it.


It's more useful if you use something like ZZ where edges are already oriented. Orienting edges, orienting corners then inserting isn't as fast as insert+OLL.

Something I forgot to mention in my previous post; the set of 162 algs for CLS could be useful for Roux if another set of algs is made where the LSE isn't affected.


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## SenileGenXer (Dec 4, 2013)

Cobra LL?



9 COs * 3 EPs * ?CPs

I think it's at least 8CPs cases putting the algs up at 216. If I could make the up-back-left corner and edge into a 1x2 block the numbers might be decent.


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## ChickenWrap (Dec 4, 2013)

I am really interested in that video, if anyone has the link!!


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## TDM (Dec 4, 2013)

SenileGenXer said:


> Cobra LL?
> 
> View attachment 3302
> 
> ...


((3!)*(4!*3^2))/2 = 648. Did I do something wrong? I think it could be that there's more than 8 CP cases, but idk how many there are.
If you're making a 2x2 block, then:
((2!)*(3!*3^2))/2 = 54. That could be good, depending on how difficult setting up is.


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## Tim Major (Dec 5, 2013)

strakerak said:


> This season's variation



Summer Variation you say?


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## SenileGenXer (Dec 5, 2013)

Thank you TDM for running all this math. I do sincerely appreciate it. 

I haven't found a LL skip yet but I have put together some really simple moves to force one of the first three RLS-WV cases. I'm not sure if it can ever be time efficient but I'll practice more and have a video sometime.


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## Ranzha (Dec 5, 2013)

WV and MW are pretty dope.


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## pipkiksass (Dec 5, 2013)

Tim Major said:


> Summer Variation you say?



He forgot to stipulate which hemisphere he lives in!


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## Kirjava (Dec 5, 2013)

pipkiksass said:


> He forgot to stipulate which hemisphere he lives in!



no he didn't, it says right next to his post.


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## pipkiksass (Dec 5, 2013)

Kirjava said:


> no he didn't, it says right next to his post.



My point is that he clearly hadn't considered the fact that it is a different season in the northern and southern hemispheres and posted 'this season' meaning Winter, as he resides in the Northern Hemisphere. Hence Tim's comment (Tim lives in Melbourne. It says right next to his post! ). 

I was merely remarking that a more accurate post might have read along the lines of:

"This season's variation (for those in the Northern Hemisphere)"

You could argue that this was implicit in his post. But it isn't.

edit: it was intended as a casual, throwaway, geography-based joke. Clearly misjudged my audience - not everyone finds hemisphere jokes funny. There's just no pleasing some people!


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## Ranzha (Dec 6, 2013)

Kirjava said:


> no he didn't, it says right next to his post.



And even so, Tim's yet wrong. It's not past solstice quite yet guys


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## Tim Major (Dec 6, 2013)

I was just making a joke, I obviously knew he meant Winter Variation. He just said Winter Variation in a stupid way so I replied in a stupid way.


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## SenileGenXer (Dec 6, 2013)

OK I have a method to engineer a LL skip. Particularly a LL-LS method. I don't think it's time competitive but it works. I don't think it's helpful for fewest moves. It's a ton of looks. You may have to use a J-perm or an A-Perm to set it up - is that cheating? Something about it is interesting. Do I need to flesh it out with all the algs for all the cases to get credit for discovery? What is a good place & software to use? Should I generate my algs and start a WIKI page here on speed solving? I am tempted to just ask cube explorer for the optimal algs but I know those won't be the best. Anyone want to collaborate?

For the first time in my life I'm afraid I'll get hit by a bus or something and not be able to finish this.


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## kcl (Dec 6, 2013)

SenileGenXer said:


> OK I have a method to engineer a LL skip. Particularly a LL-LS method. I don't think it's time competitive but it works. I don't think it's helpful for fewest moves. It's a ton of looks. You may have to use a J-perm or an A-Perm to set it up - is that cheating? Something about it is interesting. Do I need to flesh it out with all the algs for all the cases to get credit for discovery? What is a good place & software to use? Should I generate my algs and start a WIKI page here on speed solving? I am tempted to just ask cube explorer for the optimal algs but I know those won't be the best. Anyone want to collaborate?
> 
> For the first time in my life I'm afraid I'll get hit by a bus or something and not be able to finish this.



I'm wondering though.. If it's a ton of looks is it really a LL skip method?


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## mark49152 (Dec 6, 2013)

kclejeune said:


> I'm wondering though.. If it's a ton of looks is it really a LL skip method?


Who cares, it sounds really interesting to look at anyway. Reminds me of this: http://www.speedsolving.com/forum/showthread.php?37349-CFOP-Variation-CF


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## pipkiksass (Dec 6, 2013)

mark49152 said:


> Who cares, it sounds really interesting to look at anyway. Reminds me of this: http://www.speedsolving.com/forum/showthread.php?37349-CFOP-Variation-CF



Does sound interesting. Funnily enough I was thinking about this the other day - if it takes an A or J perm setup I'm sure there would be alternate algs that orient while permuting differently, or cancelations.

ZBLS?


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## ~Adam~ (Dec 6, 2013)

I insert the F2L pair.
Maybe a contributing factor to not being sub 15 yet ={


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## SenileGenXer (Dec 6, 2013)

pipkiksass said:


> Does sound interesting. Funnily enough I was thinking about this the other day - if it takes an A or J perm setup I'm sure there would be alternate algs that orient while permuting differently, or cancelations.
> 
> ZBLS?



Somebody with mad skills could permute and orient one corner from edges oriented in one move then finish the cube in the second look using about 117 algs (9 corner orientation cases times aprox 13 cryptic PLLs?). Fifty percent of the time that correct corner is on the front-right side it could be permuted and oriented with repeated sexy moves or inverse sexy moves or just encountered correctly. The other fifty percent of the time you could do it with one of 12 edge preserving algs not yet invented? After the 117? final cases there wouldn't even be AUFs to deal with. You would be finishing the cube in that second look. I guess I shouldn't short sell it as fast/few moves. That would be ZBLS

I'm a normalish to slow cuber. I take a look to orient the edges, another look to permute a special corner, a third look to orient the special corner. Then I'd be at a 9x13ish LLLS and look up the alg - execute it wrong and start over. 

If I took more looks I could make sure to permute (not orient) another corner and have a subset now called *Victory Is Mine!* and perhaps have those algs memorized. It should be 37 cases because 9 RLS-WV+U * 4 cryptic PLLS = 37 VIM! cases. 

Seriously what do I have to do to claim credit and what is the best software setup to generate 117 pictures and and a 9x13ish table? Should I just show VIM! first and let super cubers decide if they want to fill in the 9*13 set?


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## Kirjava (Dec 6, 2013)

pipkiksass said:


> "This season's variation (for those in the Northern Hemisphere)"



you seem to assume that the majority of the forum sucks at inference enough to be confused by his words


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## pipkiksass (Dec 6, 2013)

Kirjava said:


> you seem to assume that the majority of the forum sucks at inference enough to be confused by his words



Or possibly, just possibly, I was being facetious?


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