# Full PLL for Megaminx!



## Kenneth (Feb 10, 2010)

Amoung crazy cube method projects we are proud to present full PLL for the Megaminx 

http://sites.google.com/site/permuteramera/

There are still algs to add, some just needs to be mirrored and or inversed from one that is already there, some we have just not gotten to add yet but for some we lack a short solution...

But there are solutions, algorithms for all cases in 2 gen (RU and mirrors) but some are awfully long, 20+ turns. We are still looking for solutions for the rest and if you got a 3 gen or more alg for some of those situations that is not longer than 16 turns, then palease share.

The images we made from the cases may look a little silly but it is much easier to remember the case if you have a picture of it's shape rather than positions for induvidial pieces, then I played games inventing names for them, some are really clever but mabye not all of them 


We don't seriously expect anyone to learn all cases, we did it most because it is a fun project and as far as we know nobody did it before us. But still, it is a great resourece for those who like to improve their LL times.


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## irontwig (Feb 10, 2010)

So how many cases are they? I guess the fact that both edges and corners always are in a even permutation makes thing a bit easier, both in respect to the number of cases and recognition (you only need to know where 3 corners and 3 edges are). What's the average move count compared to other methods?


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## qqwref (Feb 10, 2010)

Heh, very cool to see that this is actually up  A long time ago I had the idea of making full OLL and PLL, and I ended up calculating the number of positions and making about 20 algs (didn't use ksolve, just did it by hand ) so it's cool to see someone is going to go all the way with this. I strongly suggest working on megaminx OLL too if you can, it's about the same number of algorithms and many of them can be adapted easily from 3x3 OLLs.


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## Kenneth (Feb 10, 2010)

Stini calculated the number of OLL's but I cant remember the exact number, but some 19x it was. Mabye we will see that too, it has been discussed 

No, we did not use Ksolve but Johannes Laries Meganinx 2g solver that Stini modifyed a bit and he is considering expansion to 3g (RUL or RUD = EO perserved that is easiest). The rest of the algs we got was found by hand or we reused 3x3 algos.

Irontwig, 152 cases and of those 10 unusual. Average move count is not calculated yet, we like to add more algs first... we still find more of them.


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## Stini (Feb 10, 2010)

There are 260 OLL-cases in total (if inverses and mirrors are considered separate cases). Only the solved case has the probability 1/1296 and the rest have probability of 5/1296.


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## TMOY (Feb 10, 2010)

If it can help, I know the following CPLLs (both 2-gen and 15 moves):
Q case: y L2 U2 L'2 U L2 U' L'2 U L2 U' L'2 U L2 U2 L'2
Q' case: y L2 U'2 L'2 U' L2 U L'2 U' L2 U L'2 U' L2 U'2 L'2
Other than that, I don't do OLL-PLL on the megaminx so I haven't searched very far in that direction...


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## Henrik (Feb 10, 2010)

Megaminx OLLs are already on the web.
http://blog.daum.net/_blog/ArticleCateList.do?blogid=0IsIE&CATEGORYID=738859&dispkind=B2202

And there are programs for Megaminx LL. that go up to 5g (URFLB) 

and here are some PLLs that I generated for Holger they might be helpful.
http://www.speedsolving.com/forum/showthread.php?t=18592


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## Johannes91 (Feb 10, 2010)

If anyone else wants my 2-gen solver, the C source code is here: http://laire.dy.fi/t/minx_UR.c.txt. If it makes no sense or you can't figure out how to use it, don't ask.  I wrote it a while ago for this thread: http://www.speedsolving.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6305.

With symmetries, I counted 148 OLL cases. How much using inverses saves depends on the exact algs used.

And for 1-look LL, in case anyone cares, I got 186,632 cases, 93,316 with mirrors, and 47,148 with inverses as well. (Wouldn't surprise me if these are wrong.)


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## jazzthief81 (Feb 10, 2010)

Henrik said:


> And there are programs for Megaminx LL. that go up to 5g (URFLB)



Yes, I developed a 5-gen LL solver for megaminx about 2 years ago but I never polished it off and published it because I lost interest. It works really well and a few people have been using it successfully.

This is a nice project that you guys are doing! Maybe it will inspire me to put my solver online soon. 

But at the moment I have some other things going on that I can't tell you about but that will be revealed soon. It's also cubing/programming related.


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## Henrik (Feb 10, 2010)

jazzthief81 said:


> Henrik said:
> 
> 
> > And there are programs for Megaminx LL. that go up to 5g (URFLB)
> ...



I would think you should, its a great program.


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## Kenneth (Feb 10, 2010)

Thank's for the links Henrik.

Lars I really like to see your solver, go for it! 

Possible to change B to D(FR)? It is more usefull

Why I think so? take this case and try it in your solver to see if it finds a shorter one (possibly but mabye not) : R2' D U2' R2 U' R2' U R2' D' R' U' R2' U2' R2 [U2]


TMOY, thank's for the algs, I actually found the same ones, I just have not listed them yet


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## jazzthief81 (Feb 15, 2010)

Henrik said:


> jazzthief81 said:
> 
> 
> > Henrik said:
> ...





Kenneth said:


> Lars I really like to see your solver, go for it!



Here it is!

http://qblog.be/2010/02/last-layer-megaminx-solver/

I'm glad I finally published it. I've been putting this off for such a long time. Thanks for giving me the kick in the back, guys!


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## hr.mohr (Feb 15, 2010)

Very nice Lars! It's an awesome program


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## Kenneth (Feb 16, 2010)

jazzthief81 said:


> Henrik said:
> 
> 
> > jazzthief81 said:
> ...



Gee man, thank's, it will come in wery handy for us


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## irontwig (Feb 16, 2010)

Kenneth, you need to learn to spell "very" and "orca". I have been thinking about megaminx LL some, and I think for fewest moves OE-PE-CLL would be best (CLL mostly solved with two 3-cycles or something like that) and for speed OE-PEOC-PC might be the best because all steps have pretty easy recognition, OE is really short and PEOC is of course 2-gen-able. I'm not sure about the number cases, probably a bit too many for anyone who's not completely obsessed at getting faster at megaminx LL, since you you would only gain a few seconds with good recall and execution of hundreds of algs.


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## Kenneth (Feb 16, 2010)

Ya ya, I newer spell 100% because I newer use a spell checker, I humanize it =) Well, wery I know but I keep confusing w and v all the time, but only if I don't proof read, enough of that...

PE-OC are more cases than PLL but yes, for recognition it is a fine method.

You will have a horrible move count if you solve edges and then CLL in two steps, only that will have a nice 25+ moves on average and the number of cases is great, only for 3x3 it is some 80 (the worst LL case of them all for 3x3 is within this group, 16 HTM, H no permut, and nobody uses this method exept for some ZBLL solvers).

Now when there is a solver I'm planning a 3LLL that is more adapted to Megaminx than the normal 3x3 approches we use now. I have no idea how it will look, it is a later question, first I will try to compleate the algs for the PLL pages.


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## irontwig (Feb 17, 2010)

Then why don't you get a spell checker? Unless you're using some super obscure browser there should be one for it.

Sure the cases where all corners permuted, but not oriented sucks, but you only get those 1/(5*4*3)=1/60 of the time, while all 5-cycles and double swaps can be done with 2 3-cycles for 14-24 moves (I just guessed that the worst 3-cycles requires 12 moves and that there's a case which requires two of them, correct me if I'm wrong). And when you go for fewest moves you have the time to be cautious and avoid nasty cases. 

I don't see how you would be able to do 3LLL with a reasonable amount of algs (about the same number for 2LLL for 3x3) without some sort of LL preparation. If you make an oriented 2x2 block then you've greatly reduced the number of OLL cases and a 3LLL is possible (potentially 2LLL with much too much work). I would say that worst thing about megaminx LL seems to be that you recognition is hard if you don't completely know your colour scheme and that you don't have any slices to quickly solve edges. Oh, and the greater number of pieces doesn't really work too well. Well, I've rambled on enough now.


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## qqwref (Feb 17, 2010)

I think you could do pseudo-3LLL:
- when on last slot, first create a 2x2 block on the last layer.
- expand that to a 2x3 block.
- insert a corner/edge pair, similar to the Tripod method.
- solve last 5 pieces at once (# of total cases: 2*3*9 = 54).


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## mazei (Feb 17, 2010)

I think if you remove the possibility of getting a 5-cycle of corners, the number of cases will be reduced and length of algs would be shorter. But I wouldn't know because I'm sort of clueless on these stuff. Just my 2 cents.

Perhaps during CO(assuming you would do EO->CO->PLL) you could cycle the corners to avoid 5-cycles?

EDIT
ninja'd by qq. He explained it better.


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## Kenneth (Feb 17, 2010)

The way I solve LL as now is VH-F2L for EO and partial MGLS (mostly sexy moves) for at least two corners, the ones next to the pair. Then I put the pair down and I get 6 diffrent OLL's, then PLL in as many steps I need. Working and pretty fast but turn intensive, I get like 40-50 for the whole LL if I don't know the PLL, else 30 something.


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## Kenneth (Feb 17, 2010)

Thank's to Lars solver we now got algs for all PLL's up on the pages.

Many of the new ones are 3g (RUF/ULF) because that is the fastest search mode (besides 2g that we already had). Algs we found using xg are marked (x ABC), that is so we know where it may be a shorter one if more sides are used, and also the limit to use. The search for more and shorter algs will continue but it will run much slower than this did.

And it will be all OLL's too, that work Lid has started ^^


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## qqwref (Feb 18, 2010)

Kenneth said:


> The way I solve LL as now is VH-F2L for EO and partial MGLS (mostly sexy moves) for at least two corners, the ones next to the pair. Then I put the pair down and I get 6 diffrent OLL's, then PLL in as many steps I need. Working and pretty fast but turn intensive, I get like 40-50 for the whole LL if I don't know the PLL, else 30 something.



Yeah, this seems pretty turn-intensive. I think if you want to 'reduce' the last layer to PLL you would be much better off with intuitive VHF2L followed by corner-orientation in one look.


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## Kenneth (Feb 18, 2010)

Yeha, sure, but then I need to learn also the rest of the CO's and I'm too lazy to learn also the last "Brunos"...

I do not speedsolve Megaminx (4-5 minutes first layers and 25 seconds LL =) but I do a lot of alg searching, most of the times I get to situations I cannot solve in one look or I even mess F2L because I can't find my way back, I only need a method for that.


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## mazei (Feb 18, 2010)

Kenneth said:


> (4-5 minutes first layers and 25 seconds LL =)


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## Kenneth (Feb 18, 2010)

I do not practice, mabye 30-40 full solves in 2-3 years 

I hate puzzles that are hard just because it is hard to find the pieces, my limit is 4x4x4 (but I also do 5x5x5 at times).


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## mazei (Feb 18, 2010)

I mean, the LL time is equivalent to mine, and I've been practicing like mad for quite some time now.


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## Kenneth (Feb 18, 2010)

And I solve only LL, like 100 times a day or so and probably know more algs, at least PLL's, than any other minxer.


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## irontwig (Feb 19, 2010)

Kenneth said:


> And I solve only LL, like 100 times a day or so and probably know more algs, at least PLL's, than any other minxer.



It seems to me that you enjoy learning algs way more than getting faster. What's your FL-LL breakdown for 2x2?


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## ribonzz (Feb 19, 2010)

Megaminx are hard, but my friend can finish it in about 10 minutes..


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## Kenneth (Feb 19, 2010)

irontwig said:


> It seems to me that you enjoy learning algs way more than getting faster. What's your FL-LL breakdown for 2x2?




Baad, I have my best averages in the range 6-7 seconds but that is after days of practice, I know way too many CxLL's to quickly react to what I see in front of me, sometimes I'm about to use a COLL of 12 turns when I know a 2x2 CLL of 9 if I'm out of practice 

Back to topic, besides Stefans OLL project I have now started a page for ELL as the first LL step:

http://sites.google.com/site/permuteramera/other-methods/ell

It will soon be done, in a day or two...


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## irontwig (Feb 19, 2010)

How come I didn't realize that ELL had that few cases even though I solve edges first?


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## Kenneth (Feb 19, 2010)

Easy, you calculate the number of cases and find there are 96 of them...

But as you can see more than 2:3 can be removed just from doing AUF.

Edit: when I started this morning I had no clue about the cases in ELL and obviously I did not have it when I started the page and generated the algs...

I simply forgot the 4-flips exept the two I already listed on the page... So there are 10 more cases to list 

I hope you keep in mind the pages still are pretty beta, there are probably more algs that are wrong than the ones we already fixed and I found two images that where wrong a day ago (fixed now).

But the work is in progress...


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## Kenneth (Feb 23, 2010)

I remade the ELL page a bit so it follows the method for recognition that I recommend. I now got all cases and algs up. The pages just needs a little rounding in the corners and it will be ok.

http://sites.google.com/site/permuteramera/other-methods/ell

Move count is pretty low, about 8.5 including AUF if 4g algs are used, a little more if only 3g is ok (2g does not work becase of the EO). For a ~3 look using commutators for corners you can probably get under 30 moves on average if you learn all 3 cycles, some 36 cases I think, mabye that will be my next page. The only problem with it is that commutators are not that fast.

---------
Some of the OLL pages are comming up too...


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## Crystl (Mar 1, 2010)

wow, that's great ! I should learn them if I want a place on my first WCA event


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## Kenneth (Mar 10, 2010)

After a stroke of lazyness I finally compleated the 3CLL page.

http://sites.google.com/site/permuteramera/other-methods/3cll


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## guitardude7241 (Mar 13, 2010)

does anybody know if any top minxers use pll and oll? sorry for the noob question, i just got a minx today, and really like it.


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## SimonWestlund (Mar 13, 2010)

guitardude7241 said:


> does anybody know if any top minxers use pll and oll? sorry for the noob question, i just got a minx today, and really like it.



Both me and Bogyo have started to learn it. But I doubt anyone will finish it..


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## guitardude7241 (Mar 13, 2010)

SimonWestlund said:


> guitardude7241 said:
> 
> 
> > does anybody know if any top minxers use pll and oll? sorry for the noob question, i just got a minx today, and really like it.
> ...



i should look, but i don't want to.  about how many algs is there for pll and oll?


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## Kenneth (Mar 14, 2010)

152 PLL and 260 OLL 

BTW: all OLL's are up at the page now...


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## TMOY (Mar 14, 2010)

151 and 259, unless you want to count the skip as an alg


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## Kenneth (Mar 14, 2010)

TMOY said:


> 151 and 259, unless you want to count the skip as an alg



Ah, darn, I read really bad, I saw "cases"


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## Lid (Nov 3, 2010)

During the last 2 weeks I have checked all the existing PLLs and some have been replaced with better onces, plus that I 've also added a lot of new alternatives (like pure RU algs to many cases).

As usual if you find any error, let me or Kenneth know.

URL in case you missed it  - http://sites.google.com/site/permuteramera/


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## Carrot (Nov 3, 2010)

Lid said:


> During the last 2 weeks I have checked all the existing PLLs and some have been replaced with better onces, plus that I 've also added a lot of new alternatives (like pure RU algs to many cases).
> 
> As usual if you find any error, let me or Kenneth know.
> 
> URL in case you missed it  - http://sites.google.com/site/permuteramera/



wee I know 18/44 (it is 44 right?) mushrooms now =D

btw... I would like the pure U-perm to be also under "mushroom" and the same about the other EPLLs =D just because the corners aren't scrambled, it shouldn't make it less mushroom or bunny or horseface or what else they are called xD


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## SimonWestlund (Nov 3, 2010)

Odder said:


> wee I know 18/44 (it is 44 right?) mushrooms now =D
> 
> btw... I would like the pure U-perm to be also under "mushroom" and the same about the other EPLLs =D just because the corners aren't scrambled, it shouldn't make it less mushroom or bunny or horseface or what else they are called xD


 
There are 60 mushrooms. (mushroom + additionals + EP)

I just finished them yesterday 
I know about 100 cases in total now.


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## Kickflip1993 (Nov 4, 2010)

Am I the only minxer, who doesn´t know any algs???
I only know 3 edge-OLLs, 8 corner-OLLs, 4 edge-PLLs and intuitive corner-PLL xD
15 algs xD

For a pure U-perm I´d still do J-Perm + corner pll for instance^^


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## Kenneth (Nov 4, 2010)

Then you can cut your LL times a good bit by learning more cases. Some of the PLLs are so easy 

Your current times and a better LL = ?


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## Kickflip1993 (Nov 4, 2010)

My official times are 53.43 single and 1:01.11 avg xD
my LL is about 7-12 seconds and i am pretty fine with that.

btw: I havent been practising minx since euro 2010 :S


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## Kenneth (Nov 4, 2010)

Good for Simon then because he have done a lot of practice since Euro and he was close to you even before this, watch out


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## Lid (Jun 17, 2013)

Finally got around and have done a new and improved(?) version of the page, you can find it here: http://hem.bredband.net/_zlv_/rubiks/megaminx-new/

Errors, fault, algs, ideas, etc send mail to megaminxpll(at)gmail.com


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## ilikecubing (Jun 20, 2013)

Lid said:


> Finally got around and have done a new and improved(?) version of the page, you can find it here: http://hem.bredband.net/_zlv_/rubiks/megaminx-new/
> 
> Errors, fault, algs, ideas, etc send mail to megaminxpll(at)gmail.com



sorry I'm rather unfamiliar with megaminx notation.What does bR' before and bR after the alg stand for?


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## Genesis (Jun 20, 2013)

ilikecubing said:


> sorry I'm rather unfamiliar with megaminx notation.What does bR' before and bR after the alg stand for?



bR= back right


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## ilikecubing (Jun 20, 2013)

Genesis said:


> bR= back right



How is it executed?


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## stoic (Jun 20, 2013)

ilikecubing said:


> How is it executed?



Clockwise if you were looking at it. Same as <RLUDBF> on cube shaped puzzles but if you hold a megaminx with one face as F there are two B faces


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## RITVIK RAJ (Nov 1, 2013)

CAn u make this printable file?


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## SenileGenXer (Nov 9, 2013)

In the Sunny CPLL section the graphic for the first O is wrong. Its shows an O2'/Star case.


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## Lid (Nov 9, 2013)

SenileGenXer said:


> In the Sunny CPLL section the graphic for the first O is wrong. Its shows an O2'/Star case.


On the OLD site yes, on the NEW site no.


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## SenileGenXer (Nov 10, 2013)

Ah there is a new site. Thank you


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## guitarlos (Mar 31, 2015)

Sorry to bump an old thread, but I'm not seeing how there are only 151 + skip cases. I know there are 80 cases for 3 corner with 3 edge cycles and that there 15 corner only cases and 15 edge only cases (4 of which can AUF to a corner only case). That's 106 cases. It looks like there 15 cases for the 4 edge swaps and 40 other cases for 3 edge cycles with 4 or more corner cycles/swaps. That's 161 cases. Do 10 cases overlap with other cases? I'm learning full pll right now and the fewer algs I can learn to get the job done the better. Thanks for the help.


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## TDM (Mar 31, 2015)

guitarlos said:


> Sorry to bump an old thread, but I'm not seeing how there are only 151 + skip cases. I know there are 80 cases for 3 corner with 3 edge cycles and that there 15 corner only cases and 15 edge only cases (4 of which can AUF to a corner only case). That's 106 cases. It looks like there 15 cases for the 4 edge swaps and 40 other cases for 3 edge cycles with 4 or more corner cycles/swaps. That's 161 cases. Do 10 cases overlap with other cases? I'm learning full pll right now and the fewer algs I can learn to get the job done the better. Thanks for the help.


You might have counted the clockwise/anticlockwise cycles of five edges/corners more than once, since you could count them as cycles of either type of piece.


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## Filipe Teixeira (Mar 15, 2019)

Anyone knows full oll/pll already?


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## tx789 (Mar 15, 2019)

Filipe Teixeira said:


> Anyone knows full oll/pll already?


Like 12 know PLL probably more. Juan Pablo Huanqui knows full OLL minus the dots.


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## Raul Low (Nov 12, 2019)

Full PLL Video with new algorithms


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## SenileGenXer (Mar 24, 2022)

Anyone know what's happened to the new site? Is there a newer site?


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## OreKehStrah (Mar 24, 2022)

SenileGenXer said:


> Anyone know what's happened to the new site? Is there a newer site?


Speedcubedb or the James' sheet


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## abunickabhi (Mar 24, 2022)

OreKehStrah said:


> Speedcubedb or the James' sheet


Does Juan Pablo maintain a mega alg google sheet?


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## OreKehStrah (Mar 24, 2022)

abunickabhi said:


> Does Juan Pablo maintain a mega alg google sheet?


Not that I know of


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## DarthDK (Mar 25, 2022)

abunickabhi said:


> Does Juan Pablo maintain a mega alg google sheet?


So far the only sheet I’ve seen his name on the 4LLL one


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