# Prize money for tournaments? good idea?



## Erik (Jan 15, 2008)

Lars V and me had an idea like this: 
people pay about 5 bucks registration. Lets say we have 40 competitiors. That's
200 bucks. 8 people in the finals 1st place gets 100, 2nd place gets, 50, 3rd place gets 25, 4th place gets 15, 5th place gets 10? 

This idea is being used for a looooong time at chess tournaments, snooker, darts and many others. Analysing what happens when there is prize money: look at tournaments like Swedish Open. First it was a non-interesting tournament. But when they added 5 more events and 200 euro's of prize money suddenly Mátyás, Edouard, Clement, Gabor and others registered.

Of course this example above is very rough and can be adjusted a lot, this is just to see if you like the general idea.


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## Lotsofsloths (Jan 15, 2008)

I think it is a good idea, but I also have a question about regular tournements; where does the money go usually when we usually have competitions?

I think they should give money for the 1st 2nd and 3rd finalists, that way, the people who recieve the money usually(who does, see question ^above^), will still get a fair amount.


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## Erik (Jan 15, 2008)

mostly it goes to the venue I think?


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## Harris Chan (Jan 16, 2008)

At Toronto Open, the top 3 (well actually just top 2) in all events gets some kind of puzzle (2nd place a DIY kit, the 1st place: 2x2, DIY kit, and 4x4). So those top 2s in their events got A LOT of DIYs to assemble and play with ;-)

I don't really expect prize money attached to competitions all the time, but apparently that's what non cubers ask me: Do you get money for winning? How much did you win?

Sometimes, the travelling fee is more than the prize money itself for some people


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## pjk (Jan 16, 2008)

What pays for the cost of the event? The fees supposed to.


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## Jack (Jan 16, 2008)

Sometimes a sponser pays for the event. At the Canadian Open, there was a 10 dollar registration fee per person, but there were free bags and cubes and T-shirts, a pizza party, and a lot of prize money (I think it was something like $250, $150 and $100 for first, second and third of most events), a trip to Budapest for the winner of 3x3... Obviously the $10 fee couldn't pay for that.


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## qqwref (Jan 16, 2008)

It's an alright idea. It'd definitely be nice to pay back some of the winners. Depending on the location, though, running a competition can be expensive, and unless the WCA had some kind of funds to finance competitions' being held it would be detrimental to competition organizers if all of the registration money (or the vast majority) were to be given back out to the participants.

Also, 3x3x3 speed is not the only important event


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## blade740 (Jan 16, 2008)

I like the idea of giving puzzles as prizes. Think about it: most puzzles cost lest than $20 each. If you were to give out puzzles (not just normal 3x3's, but other things) to competitors, it would seem like you have something to work for. 

I understand that $300 in prizes is not feasible for most competitions, but if you were to buy a couple of cheap puzzles from cube4you or whatever, you could give out prizes to the top 3 in each event, and make it seem like they won something...worthwhile.


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## Lotsofsloths (Jan 16, 2008)

I think the WCA should collect money and make a bank sort of thing, they distribute money based on the popularity of the competition(World Championship= alot of money, small competitions= no so much money[100$])


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## abbracadiabra (Jan 16, 2008)

Actually, I think toy manufacturers and distributors should be solicited to sponsor competitions and to provide substantial cash prizes to the winners. This would attract the more cubers and better cubers to each event. I also think that "world-class" (for lack of a better word) cubers should be invited to the top competitions on an all-expense paid basis, courtesy of the sponsors for each event. 

If major corporations were sponsoring these events you can be sure that the media would be invited and would provide better coverage than they do currently. It's an ideal opportunity for the sponsors to reach out to their target market, and provides them with cheap advertising to the general public. Any way you look at it, it's a win-win deal.


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## Harris Chan (Jan 16, 2008)

Sometimes I prefer not to have the media in competitions though, they usually slow down the flow of events, interrupting the flow, by interviewing people in between solves (I had that during Canadian Open), and it can get you off track. I guess if the media aren't there, it would feel more like at home, no?


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## Bryan (Jan 16, 2008)

I agree with qqwref on this. There's just so many issues....another issue is that if you force fees onto competitors, some people may not compete. Also, some places don't allow you to advertise if the event is not free.


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## abbracadiabra (Jan 16, 2008)

Well you might feel more at home without media, Harris, but wouldn't it be more lucrative the other way around? You're among the elite few who would be likely to win the big-buck prizes. 

Furthermore, in a well-run (ok, I'll use the word) in a "professionally" run event, the media is kept at bay. There are very specific rules that they have to follow, and they do follow them.


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## hdskull (Jan 16, 2008)

I won nothing for placing 2nd at caltech fall, lol.

Something would be appreciated e.g. puzzles.


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## badmephisto (Jan 16, 2008)

its probably better with the media coverage because the word spreads, and we can get more people speedcubing. But... yeah it should be done in a little less intrusive way


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## Rama (Jan 16, 2008)

I am allready happy with my certificates...


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## hdskull (Jan 16, 2008)

... or certificates... lol


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## Erik (Jan 16, 2008)

Of course I know competitions itself cost a lot of money, but in my opinion with more sponsorship and money prizes we get cubing a step closer to being a world-wide known sport which is one of the things I'd really like to achieve besides doing good competition times. What happens for chess tournaments here (I was in the organisation of some) is that the city gives you money for holding a tournament in sports, I remember we always attract german players to make it international and even get more money. Mostly that money went to the rent of the room, drinks etc. 
Getting more sponsors is one of the things that'll help this, but not the only thing of course. It all depends on the organisation (no affence to Ron and Ton of course, i know they do their best to make every competition great!)


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## icke (Jan 16, 2008)

i think the idea of price money is good but i dont think it is good if people have to pay 5 bucks (even so i would do it). the thing is that all the speedcubers would come but the newbies or people who are just interested in solving the cube wouldn´t participate (just for fun) because they have to pay money. making the sport more attractive would bring more interest, more interest = more sponsors = prize money (without loosing newbies)


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## hdskull (Jan 16, 2008)

icke said:


> i think the idea of price money is good but i dont think it is good if people have to pay 5 bucks (even so i would do it). the thing is that all the speedcubers would come but the newbies or people who are just interested in solving the cube wouldn´t participate (just for fun) because they have to pay money. making the sport more attractive would bring more interest, more interest = more sponsors = prize money (without loosing newbies)



In most tournaments in California, you have to pay >$5 anyway.


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## Erik (Jan 16, 2008)

icke said:


> i think the idea of price money is good but i dont think it is good if people have to pay 5 bucks (even so i would do it). the thing is that all the speedcubers would come but the newbies or people who are just interested in solving the cube wouldn´t participate (just for fun) because they have to pay money. making the sport more attractive would bring more interest, more interest = more sponsors = prize money (without loosing newbies)



Actually this is very normal in almost every other sport and by doing all this you will even get MORE newbies than you would else because the tournament will be bigger so more good cubers will come -> tell their friends about a big tournament -> friends will come... etc


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## Dene (Jan 16, 2008)

icke said:


> i think the idea of price money is good but i dont think it is good if people have to pay 5 bucks (even so i would do it). the thing is that all the speedcubers would come *but the newbies or people who are just interested in solving the cube wouldn´t participate* (just for fun) because they have to pay money. making the sport more attractive would bring more interest, more interest = more sponsors = prize money (without loosing newbies)



I disagree. I don't think $5 would have much effect at all. I mean, it's only $5! People would encourage their friends to come along for a day out. I mean, if you want to go ANYWHERE, it's going to cost you a lot more right? I don't know what movie prices are overseas, but with that and food etc. you'd be paying a lot more, just for 2 hours of entertainment. $5 for a whole day out wacthing these super fast cubers? I think that would be great fun to pay $5 for!!


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## ExoCorsair (Jan 16, 2008)

Dene said:


> I mean, it's only $5! People would encourage their friends to come along for a day out. I mean, if you want to go ANYWHERE, it's going to cost you a lot more right? I don't know what movie prices are overseas, but with that and food etc. you'd be paying a lot more, just for 2 hours of entertainment. $5 for a whole day out wacthing these super fast cubers? I think that would be great fun to pay $5 for!!



$5 is quite a lot, actually... A movie ticket here is around $7, and in my opinion, more worthwhile to spend time with non-cuber friends at a movie than at some competition cubing.


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## Harris Chan (Jan 17, 2008)

It's good to do both ;-)


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## hdskull (Jan 17, 2008)

ExoCorsair said:


> $5 is quite a lot, actually... A movie ticket here is around $7, and in my opinion, more worthwhile to spend time with non-cuber friends at a movie than at some competition cubing.



$5 = comps in california now, and $10 = movie tickets, lol.


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## qqwref (Jan 17, 2008)

There's another point to be made about prize money as well - especially in areas that aren't completely saturated with competitions, but also in places like California, you will have competitors come from quite far distances, perhaps driving a few hours or paying $50+ for airfare. I don't think that anyone who's going to go more than a few dozen miles to a competition will be dissuaded by a small entrance fee.

Even if there's no entrance fee or prize money for a competition (or for the winners of some events), I think it would help cubing as a sport if we standardized the prizes a bit more. As hdskull mentioned, and as I think I've mentioned to some of my friends before, it would be great if we could at the very least ensure that all competitions have official-looking certificates, possibly in addition to whatever normal prizes the organizers want to give out (bags of candy, for instance). Perhaps someone could make a nice-looking certificate with the WCA logo that could be printed onto cardstock and then printed out before competitions.

It would also be helpful to have the competitions be more centralized, financially. What I mean is that competitions with a surplus could return some of the extra money to the WCA, and other competitions which are having trouble raising the money for prizes, rent, or printing could be given a small amount of financial help from the WCA. In my opinion it will only aid the legitimacy of speedcubing if we find a better way to deal with monetary requirements. Asking cubing clubs to fundraise or contribute their own money towards setting up competitions is fine, but the WCA as it is now hands out a lot of orders but doesn't give that much to small competitions, and I think it would help the expansion of the sport if we had some kind of competition treasurer.


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## CraigBouchard (Jan 17, 2008)

Two words...Media Circus. Canadian Open is the perfect example for this topic. It had prize money, and a media circus, with a lot of events and a lot of fast people. Prize money was nice, but I have talked to Dave, and its hard to host a competition, because of the cost. Kroeger Inc. sponsored the event, as well as I believe 1 or 2 other companies, so there was a money support from there...


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## CraigBouchard (Jan 17, 2008)

To qqwref, the surplus idea, I'm not sure how many competitions run a surplus/profit. If any...


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## Bryan (Jan 17, 2008)

qqwref said:


> What I mean is that competitions with a surplus could return some of the extra money to the WCA, and other competitions which are having trouble raising the money for prizes, rent, or printing could be given a small amount of financial help from the WCA.



But do competitions really have a surplus? Sure, Caltech has a lot of competitors, but we have no idea how much their rental fees are. Also, building up savings helps them to purchase more timers when they need to be replaced or helps with US Nationals. 

If you have the WCA handling money and dishing it out, I think you might have a lot of problems. For example, what defines "trouble raising money"? It's very difficult to tell if they're having troubles or they're just not trying. Also, people could lie about their expenses and pocket the extra money.

Erik, you still seem to be avoiding the point that many competitions have more than one event. 

Also, Dene, I have seen people complain about a $5 entrance fee. It's always free to watch a competition, but someone may not want to pay $5 to make 5 solves and be done.


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## Erik (Jan 17, 2008)

People who complain about $5 entrance fee for a competition are a bit whining in my opinion. Mostly it's an international competition with cubers all over the world, there are not many competitions so they should be glad there is one at all and mostly like said before, they traveled a long way already and that costs money who cares about a louzy $5 entrance fee? Also remember that the venue is not free to rent...

As to the more events part: I'm not avoiding it, I just thought that if we aren't ready yet to do prizes for 3x3 regularly that other events are out of the picture so far. If you are sponsored a lot, sure you can do prizes for other events too! But mostly you'll be glad when there is just prize money for the main event....


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## Kenneth (Jan 17, 2008)

Not like it. Or, it's a good idéa but it is not fair. Most people does not win competitions, those have to pay for the few who always win.

If there are sponsors willing to pay the prizes, then it's fine but I don't think the rest of the competitors shall pay it.

I like the cost to compeate to be as low as possible. The venue is the most needed thing, if you got a venue, you got a competition. But venues costs. The organizer should pay the venue if he can afford it or if he has got sponsors but otherwise the cost for the venue is a good reason for taking fees from competitors. But not much else is.


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## Joël (Jan 17, 2008)

Erik said:


> People who complain about $5 entrance fee for a competition are a bit whining in my opinion. Mostly it's an international competition with cubers all over the world, there are not many competitions so they should be glad there is one at all and mostly like said before, they traveled a long way already and that costs money who cares about a louzy $5 entrance fee? Also remember that the venue is not free to rent...
> 
> As to the more events part: I'm not avoiding it, I just thought that if we aren't ready yet to do prizes for 3x3 regularly that other events are out of the picture so far. If you are sponsored a lot, sure you can do prizes for other events too! But mostly you'll be glad when there is just prize money for the main event....



Hi Erik,

I am not complaining that $5 is too much, but I don't think the idea in the first post of the tread is a good one. Usually, there are many people that don't have intention to win anything, and they just compete for fun. Then, there are also a bunch of people who usually end up in the top 5. It would mean that the same people would pay for the prizes every time, and I don't think that's a good idea.

If there's a sponsor that gives away some prizes, I won't complain .


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## Erik (Jan 17, 2008)

Yes of course it's a primairy idea and it's nice to see that there are new ideas coming up, I see your point and gave it a little thought. Entrance fee indeed should not only be for the prizes, the facilities like the venue are key so the main part should go to the organising of the competition if needed. I'd like to search for ways to make the cubing community more popular and give it more general competition features where prize money is part of. Maybe part of the money could go to commercial goals to attract more people to the tournaments?


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## KConny (Jan 17, 2008)

If you take the idea of prize money one step further we could end up with professional cubers who go from comp to comp kicking everyones ass'. In stead of making it to the second round I would only get 5 solves per comp. 

Erik: Once again, you were at Swedish Cube Day, Swedish Open was held earlier that year.


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## adragast (Jan 17, 2008)

Actually, I agree with Erik that this could be a good idea.
But Erik, you also have to understand that for most people like me, going to a competition only means to do 5 solves and be out. For the world, they were even saying only 3 solves. Isn't it a bit expensive to pay 5 dollars just to solve the cube three times ? If you want to hold the comparison with chess competitions (or other sports), yes, there is some entry fees, but not for only 3 minutes of participation.
On the other hand, as you (and other people here) said, from time to time the most difficult part of the competition is to get there. So after that, 5 euros of entry fees may not be that important... (I would have paid it for any of my pupils if they have accepted to come with me to a competition).


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## Bryan (Jan 17, 2008)

Erik, would you be willing to donate any of your winnings to sponsor the next tournament I will hold? I'll let you dictate how the prizes are distributed (just the 3x3x3, or each event). If you donate an amount that's large enough to cover the other costs (just the bill from Stackmats, nothing else), I'll even name the tournment after you.


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## Erik (Jan 17, 2008)

Ardagast, in my previous post I said I thought a bit and decided it may be more important that the money goes to the competition itself in the first place and maybe commercialising it (announce it in newspapers etc.)
Kconny: I'm sorry I once thought it was Swedish Open, now I can't get it out of my head anymore 
Bryan: that's an idea if I would be an adult with money and not a poor student who can really use the money if he wins something... (also for me it's not cheap to go to competitions!)


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## Erik (Jan 17, 2008)

*some part of the discussion*


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## Stefan (Jan 18, 2008)

adragast said:


> Isn't it a bit expensive to pay 5 dollars just to solve the cube three times?



The poll doesn't specify whether the prize money must be a positive value. How about making it negative, or making everybody pay a certain amount of money for each solve?



Erik said:


> Bryan: that's an idea if I would be an adult with money and not a poor student who can really use the money if he wins something... (also for me it's not cheap to go to competitions!)



Bryan didn't ask for your prize money but for your winnings. So you could donate your OC 5x5.


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## Doudou (Jan 18, 2008)

I think the first idea is a good one. 
The problem is that most of the time, the cubers have to pay for the room. So if you ask 10 euros for the room + 5 euros for the winner, it's too much. 
I agree with Erik. Some people could be disappointed to have to pay for the winners, but some others probably came only to see Matyas solve a cube sub1 min blindfolded. 

That's why I think, the best solution is to award prizes. It could be only 50 euros, but race for money is more exciting 

Erik, just strange that you did not want to put the money for the best time of the competition....


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## Todd (Jan 19, 2008)

Prize money is a good idea, but the entrance fee to cover the money probably isnt the way to do it.

Has anyone here been to Australia?


Down here I dont think there has been or will be a competition due to the distances between our cities and the spread of cubers amongst those cities. There would have to be subsantial prize money for me to go from Melbourne -> Sydney, stay a few days and fly back.

If it was in melbourne, sure id go for fun, but in another city the cost far out ways the fun ;\


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## Erik (Jan 19, 2008)

Todd said:


> Prize money is a good idea, but the entrance fee to cover the money probably isnt the way to do it.


So, maybe you have an alternative too?


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## abbracadiabra (Jan 20, 2008)

The alternative has GOT to be sponsors. And the sponsors won't sponsor an event unless there is money in it for them. Who would make money out of a cube competition? Toy manufacturers and toy distributors - those who profit from increased sales of their merchandise. For them it's cheap advertising and an opportunity to reach their target market. 

The plus side to the cubing world is that there would be bigger competitions that would draw more and better cubers with which to compete. And the plus side for those elite few - like you, Erik - would be better prize money.

Think about it, Erik - you're a very talented and skilled cuber who has the potential to win world records. Watching you is inspiring to potential cubers, just like watching any sporting star play encourages a multitude of young people with sporting aspirations. Most won't go on to be superstars, but they play (and buy lots of sporting goods) because seeing the superstars play inspires their dreams. The sporting superstars are a veritable goldmine to sporting good manufacturers and distributors, and those businesses pay a LOT of money to create public exposure for the players. YOU are a veritable goldmine to toy manufacturers and toy distributors because people with your talent and skill inspire others to try, too. 

Who profits from that? Well, right now I don't think you're getting a whole heck of a lot other than personal satisfaction. Harris pointed out in one post that sometimes - even if he wins - it costs him more to attend a competition than he makes with his winnings. Meanwhile, toy manufacturers and the toy distributors profit from your efforts, and they'd profit a whole lot more if they could get better exposure for your talents. So they should pay for the events that give public exposure to your skills, and they should make competing a lucrative enough endeavor for you to continue to advance your skills.


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## Stax (Jan 20, 2008)

abbracadiabra said:


> The alternative has GOT to be sponsors. And the sponsors won't sponsor an event unless there is money in it for them. Who would make money out of a cube competition? Toy manufacturers and toy distributors - those who profit from increased sales of their merchandise. For them it's cheap advertising and an opportunity to reach their target market.
> 
> The plus side to the cubing world is that there would be bigger competitions that would draw more and better cubers with which to compete. And the plus side for those elite few - like you, Erik - would be better prize money.
> 
> ...



Totally true!! 
But what you also need is advertising...
Make a cube contest for example a family happening (think toy's, clowns etc etc for the kids, food and drinks for the parents and visitors). 
Here in Belgium you have the Belgian open in february but only a select few know that this contest is going to take place.
Just a select few are aware of cubing... cubing is an unknown territory.
When my friends see me with a cube they say 'Dude, that's so old.. did you clean out the addic?' .

What i'm trying to say is that it is an 'elite' club. It's not for the big public... not yet that is.
And price money... you can't expect to give away massive and expensive prices at the beginning.
Start small... learn from the mistakes... start a thinktank... and like Abbracadiabra says... make contact with potential sponsors.

Or maybe the WCA could start a virtual cubing magazine... some sort of membership etc etc etc; the possibilities are endless


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## Inusagi (Jan 20, 2008)

It's a good idea, cause you got to get back a bit of the money you spent on speedcubing.


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## genwin (Apr 20, 2008)

so what are the prizes handed out at competitions?? I think Yu Nakajima got $7000 for winning the championships last year.. What about on other cubing events??


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## pcharles93 (Apr 20, 2008)

Another 2+ month old thread. And this time it's not cooper or pcwiz. Read the date, if it's older than 2 weeks, move on.


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