# Problems with teens



## cooldayr (Dec 28, 2009)

So in school about to weeks ago everyone found out I was an atheist
Now everyone hates me
Why is this?


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## nlCuber22 (Dec 28, 2009)

This isn't the place to come look for help with personal problems.


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## cooldayr (Dec 28, 2009)

nlCuber22 said:


> This isn't the place to come look for help with personal problems.



its in off topic


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## Edward (Dec 28, 2009)

Because you have a different opinion/view, and therefore you suck.[/badthinking]

Why is this called "Problems with teens"?


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## Edmund (Dec 28, 2009)

Teens have bad thinking a lot of times. I'm a teen and it's disgraceful to get bad **** like this. I'm Catholic and would like it if you'd believe but you have free will and stuff. As long as you aren't saying "**** THE CHURCH" they shouldn't be bothered and the Church teaches being open to everyone. (By 'Church' I mean the Catholic Church so yeahhh sorry if it's not Catholics you are referring to.)


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## Bryan (Dec 28, 2009)

Well, you're probably not giving us all the details.

If they found out you're an atheist because you stood up and gave them a speech about how Christianity was stupid, then yeah, they'd probably not like you after that.

If they found out you were an atheist on the same day you ruined the senior party (even though they were separate events), that might be the issue.

For all we know, they hate your grammar.


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## ChrisBird (Dec 28, 2009)

Just ignore them. Just know that you are entitled to youur opinion and on the topic of religion there is no right and wrong.


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## 4Chan (Dec 28, 2009)

Hate them back with twice the malice.


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## EmersonHerrmann (Dec 28, 2009)

I'm agnostic and yet accused (jokingly) of being an atheist by one of my friends who is Christian. I'm not religious, it's just how I am. In fact I worship George Carlin


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## LewisJ (Dec 28, 2009)

4Chan said:


> Hate them back with twice the malice.



/b/'s methods rarely work in real life.

If they've been influenced to be closed-minded and think that atheists are terrible people and hate you solely for that, then you have little reason to care what they think of you.


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## aronpm (Dec 28, 2009)

cooldayr said:


> So in school about to weeks ago everyone found out I was an atheist
> Now everyone hates me
> Why is this?


'Fundies', I'm guessing, are the majority in your area. They tend to be pretty intolerant to the religious views of others.


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## bwatkins (Dec 28, 2009)

it seems odd that people would hate you *just* because of your views. Did perhaps you present the idea in a way that would be offensive? If so then this all makes sense.


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## OregonTrail (Dec 28, 2009)

The best thing to do in this situation is to treat them with respect. Chose wisely how you respond to their actions.

I personally believe that Judeo-Christian religious teachings and texts are a ridiculous waste of time and effort that could be spent repairing our planet.


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## Shortey (Dec 28, 2009)

EmersonHerrmann said:


> I'm agnostic and yet accused (jokingly) of being an atheist by one of my friends who is Christian. I'm not religious, it's just how I am. *In fact I worship George Carlin *



HAHAHA! Great post! George Carlin rocks.


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## EmersonHerrmann (Dec 28, 2009)

ARE YOU KIDDING ME?



> [Re: Disney/Pixar's The Incredibles]
> 
> I disagreed with the lying from the husband, the lady (almost a main character) who dresses enticingly (I know people who’ve been delivered from pornography and adultery who I hope don’t see this movie for the sake of them and the generational sin that could tempt their children). I totally disagreed with the “darn you!” in the parents' argument—power in our words—kids repeating this?! I disagreed with the “flexible” sexual innuendo, the suicide attempt (later having to explain this to a child?) and tell me why the baby had to turn into a firebaby then a devilbaby? It was ugly and made my spirit feel uncomfortable. I don’t know why it was rated PG, but I am glad it wasn’t rated G. There is a lot of violence for small kids and would probably cause my nieces and nephew to have nightmares.



These people expect the world to be daisies and love!



> [Disney's The Little Mermaid]
> 
> I recently re-watched it and was absolutely appalled. To start with, the whole thing is based on Greek mythology, with Ariel's father King Triton based on Triton, a Greek god. Why should any Christian child watch a movie with a 'good' character who is based on a demonic being?



So automatically every other religion is now "demonic"?!?!?! And of course he is based on the Greek God! It makes sense to name him after someone who is godly and rules the sea as well! (wait a second, wasn't Poseidon the lord of the Sea? Oh well.)

There are way more of these accusations. It's hilarious. (check the URL on post 13.)


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## Zane_C (Dec 29, 2009)

cooldayr said:


> So in school about to weeks ago everyone found out I was an atheist
> Now everyone hates me
> Why is this?



I'm an athiest to, by that I mean don't believe god, life after death or any spiritual stuff.
I don't know why they would hate you from that, everyone there must be religous or something. 
Not many people at my school are religous, every now and then if something gets brought up about religeon, evolution, big bang and the like, I'll have my say.
Teenagers can be real losers, I think they might even be the lamest of people. Just like everything else, you get good ones and you can get bad ones.


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## MichaelP. (Dec 29, 2009)

Really funny video, but inappropriate (curse words) at 2:08 and beyond. 



Spoiler



Video



Also after I saws Rowes single I'm converting to hesslerism.


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## Muesli (Dec 29, 2009)

I don't believe in believing in anything. I don't like being told what to do, especially by people who refuse to accept evidence. I'm not going to try and stop other people though, as that just causes problems.


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## Parity (Dec 29, 2009)

cooldayr said:


> So in school about to weeks ago everyone found out I was an atheist
> Now everyone hates me
> Why is this?



Do you go to a christian school? Lol.


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## Edmund (Dec 29, 2009)

OregonTrail said:


> I personally believe that Judeo-Christian religious teachings and texts are a ridiculous waste of time and effort that could be spent *repairing our planet*.



Are you a hippie?


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## Zane_C (Dec 29, 2009)

Musli4brekkies said:


> I don't believe in believing in anything. I don't like being told what to do, especially by people who refuse to accept evidence. I'm not going to try and stop other people though, as that just causes problems.



You have a point, I can't think of any religeon that provides good evidence, some one do tell if you have evidence!


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## nlCuber22 (Dec 29, 2009)

Edmund said:


> OregonTrail said:
> 
> 
> > I personally believe that Judeo-Christian religious teachings and texts are a ridiculous waste of time and effort that could be spent *repairing our planet*.
> ...



lol. I was thinking the same thing. This planet will never be "repaired"...


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## Edmund (Dec 29, 2009)

nlCuber22 said:


> Edmund said:
> 
> 
> > OregonTrail said:
> ...



No, I wanna know what needs to be repaired. If it is violence then yes it could use some repairing. If it's global warming go kiss Al Gore's @$$


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## nlCuber22 (Dec 29, 2009)

Edmund said:


> nlCuber22 said:
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> > Edmund said:
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He's talking about the planet as whole. As in all problems everywhere, making everything _perfect_, and when you think about it, you can't truly make anything _perfect._


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## Deleted member 2864 (Dec 29, 2009)

Well, if you live in a highly christian populated area, aren't they doing exactly what is against what Jesus taught. He promoted love, understanding, and compassion. Not hate. I'm pretty sure he believed that you can't bestow religion on somebody else though, meaning you can believe what you want out if will. Correct me if I'm wrong on that point though.

On a right or wrong standpoint, believe what you want. Because if they hate you, so be it. I'm Catholic, but I'm not about to spread hate to others that aren't. 

People should keep in mind that Jesus was Jewish, too. Assuming that the majority of the people that don't like you are Christian, then if they believe other religions aren't right, then they believe Jews aren't right, which then means they don't believe Jesus was right.

It's there loss if they hate you. Don't be deterred.

Just some brain food I thought of 


Also, try to avoid posting religious threads next time. I posted this because you created it anyway, but forum fights have started from threads like these. I already see a potential thread war from OregonTrails little post and the replies to it.


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## Zane_C (Dec 29, 2009)

Edmund said:


> No, I wanna know what needs to be repaired. If it is violence then yes it could use some repairing. If it's global warming go kiss Al Gore's @$$



:fp Global warming isn't something you believe or not believe (like god). It's fact.


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## theretardedcuber (Dec 29, 2009)

if they follow religion and they hate you because you are athiest then they are wimps... i think some people think everything is about religion..
i dont belive in religion at all its total rubbish but if people wana waste their time worshiping a made up character (god) then let them waste there time dosent bother me


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## Deleted member 2864 (Dec 29, 2009)

theretardedcuber said:


> i dont belive in religion at all its total rubbish but if people wana waste their time worshiping a made up character (god) then let them waste there time dosent bother me



Again, another opportunity for a thread war. Really guys, stop getting so opinionated. Help the guy, sure, but don't start spreading your beliefs if it can potentially hurt others. You almost seriously offended me with that post.


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## Dene (Dec 29, 2009)

Musli4brekkies said:


> I don't believe in believing in anything. I don't like being told what to do, especially by people who refuse to accept evidence. I'm not going to try and stop other people though, as that just causes problems.



You must have a very hard time getting by in life then. Who knows what might be lurking around any corner.


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## Zane_C (Dec 29, 2009)

theretardedcuber said:


> if they follow religion and they hate you because you are athiest then they are wimps... i think some people think everything is about religion..
> i dont belive in religion at all its total rubbish but if people wana waste their time worshiping a made up character (god) then let them waste there time dosent bother me



Now here's some one who knows what they're talking about.

No one is really answering the question but rather rambling about religeon.
We may aswell make a thread called the Great Debate.


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## Deleted member 2864 (Dec 29, 2009)

Zane_C said:


> theretardedcuber said:
> 
> 
> > if they follow religion and they hate you because you are athiest then they are wimps... i think some people think everything is about religion..
> ...



exactly what many of these threads turn out to be. People get opinionated and they start arguing about who's right. Eventually people like the person you quoted will end up fighting even if they said that it doesn't bother him.


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## Escher (Dec 29, 2009)

@OP: Ignore them. Anybody who persecutes you for not believing in something there is no basis for other than faith are stupid and need some serious de-brainwashing. 

I don't think 'faith' itself is stupid at all, but shunning people for not having it is despicable.


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## Stefan (Dec 29, 2009)

Zane_C said:


> No one is really answering the question but rather rambling about religeon.


False.
http://www.speedsolving.com/forum/showthread.php?p=295734#post295734


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## Zane_C (Dec 29, 2009)

StefanPochmann said:


> Zane_C said:
> 
> 
> > No one is really answering the question but rather rambling about religeon.
> ...



I know people have answered it, I even gave an answer, just people are going on about religeon more then the question.
Which I have no problem with, debating is fun


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## PEZenfuego (Dec 29, 2009)

Bryan said:


> If they found out you're an atheist because you stood up and gave them a speech about how Christianity was stupid, then yeah, they'd probably not like you after that.



I did exactly that in Speech class. Now, I'm a Christian and I did this due to an unlucky draw. I didn't care though and afterward explained individually to every person about the flaws in my debate...

In any case, as long as you don't force your views on others I don't have a problem with you.


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## mr.onehanded (Dec 29, 2009)

They are just jealous that you don't have to go to church, confirmation, or give 10% of your money to the church. Of course I'm kidding. Simply put it's because they are narrow-minded. If they took the time to actually think about it critically, it makes no difference: religion pertains to the afterlife not the present.


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## ErikJ (Dec 29, 2009)

PEZenfuego said:


> In any case, as long as you don't force your views on others I don't have a problem with you.



second


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## cooldayr (Dec 29, 2009)

no i just said i was an atheist and they all flipped
my friends have really strong views
then they said why dont you believe
then i said why do you
and now they hate me


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## sub_zero1983 (Dec 29, 2009)

Well if the truely are your freinds then they shouldn't care if ur athiest or not.


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## dannyz0r (Dec 29, 2009)

They were never your friends. WE are your true friends.


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## nlCuber22 (Dec 29, 2009)

sub_zero1983 said:


> Well if the truely are your freinds then they shouldn't care if ur athiest or not.



If I had a friend that is atheist (which I do), then I would care. However, I wouldn't force my views on them, or anyone. As Edmund said earlier, I would like them to believe, but I don't have a problem with them if they don't.


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## Hakan (Dec 29, 2009)

It's because they are idiots, that's why.

Being a kid might have something to do with it. See, kids don't really have religious beliefs. They are fed by other people (I won't go into that). You have to realise that kids are naturally idiots, it's not your fault. You are not an evil person, nor should they make you feel like one.

The best thing you can do is discuss this with adults (parents, teachers etc). They'll know how to deal with it.

Good luck


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## cooldayr (Dec 29, 2009)

nlCuber22 said:


> sub_zero1983 said:
> 
> 
> > Well if the truely are your freinds then they shouldn't care if ur athiest or not.
> ...



well i would agree with that
i still have a few religous friends
i would like them not to believe but i wont try to change them


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## (X) (Dec 29, 2009)

cooldayr said:


> nlCuber22 said:
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> > sub_zero1983 said:
> ...



Why not? Don't you care about the well-being of your friends?


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## nlCuber22 (Dec 29, 2009)

(X) said:


> cooldayr said:
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> > nlCuber22 said:
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Well-being in relation to religion (or in some cases, atheism or agnosticism) is completely opinionated. Your post makes me cringe.


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## Parity (Dec 29, 2009)

Zane_C said:


> Edmund said:
> 
> 
> > No, I wanna know what needs to be repaired. If it is violence then yes it could use some repairing. If it's global warming go kiss Al Gore's @$$
> ...



Global warming isn't a fact.
And if you want evidence of god then look threw a Bible and you will see a lot of things it says has happened.


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## dannyz0r (Dec 29, 2009)

So the bible is the truth? Any evidence I would need of God would come from that? So if I say... read some manga for some proof of super powers or superhuman abilities then..?


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## PEZenfuego (Dec 29, 2009)

You know that the probability of life happening spontaneously via the creation and proper combination of amino acids is incredibly improbably. Most scientists don't have any faith in this theory. Most scientists believe that the only sensible way that life could come to be about is through a force that no longer exists or is no longer effecting Earth in such a way as to create life.


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## DavidWoner (Dec 29, 2009)

Parity said:


> And if you want evidence of god then look threw a Bible and you will see a lot of things it says has happened.





Ethan Rosen said:


> Please prove to me that the entire content of Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows didn't actually happen. If you haven't actually read the book, here are just a few non-spoilers that I want you to prove aren't true.
> -Hagrid is a real person, and is half giant
> -Voldemort is a real person and uses his real magic wand to kill people
> -The very real invisibility cloak allows whoever wears it invisibility.
> ...



Yes, your post was not even worth making a new argument.



PEZenfuego said:


> You know that the probability of life happening spontaneously via the creation and proper combination of amino acids is incredibly improbably.



You clearly have no concept of how large the universe is, how old it is, or how large numbers works. Even if something is extremely improbable, with enough time and enough trials it is bound to happen.



PEZenfuego said:


> Most scientists don't have any faith in this theory. Most scientists believe that the only sensible way that life could come to be about is through a force that no longer exists or is no longer effecting Earth in such a way as to create life.



[citation needed]


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## OregonTrail (Dec 29, 2009)

nlCuber22 said:


> Edmund said:
> 
> 
> > nlCuber22 said:
> ...



Sometimes the greatest action is inaction.


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## Edmund (Dec 29, 2009)

Zane_C said:


> Edmund said:
> 
> 
> > No, I wanna know what needs to be repaired. If it is violence then yes it could use some repairing. If it's global warming go kiss Al Gore's @$$
> ...



Really. I don't know. I'm sitting in my house looking at like 7 inches of snow. Why am I on this forum? I should be shoveling that global warming. I wish I could multitask like you though: Using the forum and kissing Al Gore's @$$.


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## DavidWoner (Dec 29, 2009)

Edmund said:


> Zane_C said:
> 
> 
> > Edmund said:
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Yeah instead you're not shoveling snow and not bothering to go research what global warming actually does.


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## OregonTrail (Dec 29, 2009)

Edmund said:


> Zane_C said:
> 
> 
> > Edmund said:
> ...



Snow storms are caused by pressure systems that form because of atmospheric thermodynamics. The snow you're looking at is probably unusual for your area. 

It is a fact that this planet is warmer on average than it has ever been in recorded history. If you've learned any meteorology you know that this can create unusually high snowfall in certain areas. You might prefer to call it Global Climate Change, but the *fact* is that we must stop producing huge quantities of atmospheric waste.

I don't care what political or religious ideology you follow, but if you don't recognize that the "fight" against global warming is funded by the all the corporations who could use a discount on their waste management system then you've fallen victim to their sin of the sloth.


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## Bryan (Dec 29, 2009)

OregonTrail said:


> It is a fact that this planet is warmer on average than it has ever been in recorded history.



As long as the measuring has been consistent.

http://surfacestations.org/


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## PEZenfuego (Dec 29, 2009)

DavidWoner said:


> Parity said:
> 
> 
> > And if you want evidence of god then look threw a Bible and you will see a lot of things it says has happened.
> ...



Clearly the scientists who have been spending years trying to create life have thought about that. Even when you put into consideration the billions of years and the amount of galaxies, solar systems, planets, and moons that can have and maintain life; you still end up with a very very small probability. We end up with an estimate being one in 10 to the 89,900 power. Wrap your mind around this...there are less atoms in the universe than 10 to the 89,900 power. I suppose abiogenesis is possible, but I feel that 1 in 10 to the 89,900 is essentially 0%


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## PatrickJameson (Dec 29, 2009)

PEZenfuego said:


> Clearly the scientists who have been spending years trying to create life have thought about that. Even when you put into consideration the billions of years and the amount of galaxies, solar systems, planets, and moons that can have and maintain life; you still end up with a very very small probability. We end up with an estimate being one in 10 to the 89,900 power. Wrap your mind around this...there are less atoms in the universe than 10 to the 89,900 power. I suppose abiogenesis is possible, but I feel that 1 in 10 to the 89,900 is essentially 0%





DavidWoner said:


> [citation needed]


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## anythingtwisty (Dec 29, 2009)

Tell your friends that they should not be mad at you for what you believe, as it does not affect them. Additionally, present them with an argument asking them to prove, rather than you to disprove.


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## DavidWoner (Dec 29, 2009)

PEZenfuego said:


> Clearly the scientists who have been spending years trying to create life have thought about that. Even when you put into consideration the billions of years and the amount of galaxies, solar systems, planets, and moons that can have and maintain life; you still end up with a very very small probability. We end up with an estimate being one in 10 to the 89,900 power. Wrap your mind around this...there are less atoms in the universe than 10 to the 89,900 power. I suppose abiogenesis is possible, but I feel that 1 in 10 to the 89,900 is essentially 0%



I don't think we know anywhere near enough about the universe and how it works to make such an all-encompassing calculation. Even if there was some unknown force that first created life in the universe, I don't think an omnipotent, omnipresent superbeing is the most likely candidate.


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## anythingtwisty (Dec 29, 2009)

DavidWoner said:


> PEZenfuego said:
> 
> 
> > Clearly the scientists who have been spending years trying to create life have thought about that. Even when you put into consideration the billions of years and the amount of galaxies, solar systems, planets, and moons that can have and maintain life; you still end up with a very very small probability. We end up with an estimate being one in 10 to the 89,900 power. Wrap your mind around this...there are less atoms in the universe than 10 to the 89,900 power. I suppose abiogenesis is possible, but I feel that 1 in 10 to the 89,900 is essentially 0%
> ...


This.


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## PEZenfuego (Dec 29, 2009)

DavidWoner said:


> PEZenfuego said:
> 
> 
> > Clearly the scientists who have been spending years trying to create life have thought about that. Even when you put into consideration the billions of years and the amount of galaxies, solar systems, planets, and moons that can have and maintain life; you still end up with a very very small probability. We end up with an estimate being one in 10 to the 89,900 power. Wrap your mind around this...there are less atoms in the universe than 10 to the 89,900 power. I suppose abiogenesis is possible, but I feel that 1 in 10 to the 89,900 is essentially 0%
> ...



If we did know enough, then this wouldn't be fun to debate would it?


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## PatrickJameson (Dec 29, 2009)

PEZenfuego said:


> DavidWoner said:
> 
> 
> > PEZenfuego said:
> ...



So I guess we should just continue making up random statistics. Good plan.


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## PEZenfuego (Dec 29, 2009)

PatrickJameson said:


> PEZenfuego said:
> 
> 
> > DavidWoner said:
> ...



They aren't random...but it isn't as if I made them up. I'm finding ballpark numbers. I'm not trying to convince you I'm right. I'm just showing you numbers. I'm sure you can find conflicting ones but it doesn't really matter and I don't really care what you think or believe.


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## PatrickJameson (Dec 29, 2009)

PEZenfuego said:


> They aren't random...but it isn't as if I made them up. I'm finding ballpark numbers. I'm not trying to convince you I'm right. I'm just showing you numbers. I'm sure you can find conflicting ones but it doesn't really matter and I don't really care what you think or believe.



It's not about what I think or believe. It's about you claiming something as fact without definite proof. That of course is just the big picture, not even touching on this individual post.



PEZenfuego said:


> They aren't random...but it isn't as if I made them up. I'm finding ballpark numbers.



Based on what? A complete guess?



PEZenfuego said:


> I'm not trying to convince you I'm right. I'm just showing you numbers.



Again, what numbers? The ones you guessed(made up)?

Really, all I want is just a LITTLE proof of the numbers you have presented.


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## bwatkins (Dec 29, 2009)

cooldayr said:


> no i just said i was an atheist and they all flipped
> *my friends have really strong views*
> then they said why dont you believe
> then i said why do you
> and now they hate me




I have a feeling the argument was a little more heated than this. If not though, perhaps you should find some friends who appreciate you for *exactly* who you are, although it's easier said than done. 

Also, if your friends have strong views, don't question them. Yes if you can have deep *constructive* conversations, then go for it. If this is not a possibility, then just agree to disagree and go on being friends. Don't let something like this stand in your way. 



cooldayr said:


> nlCuber22 said:
> 
> 
> > sub_zero1983 said:
> ...


Why must we be concerned with the grammar, it is quite a small detail in the grand scheme of things?

Perhaps this is a problem, you should not have a preference in what your friends believe. If they choose to worship something you do not, so be it. If having a faith makes them happy, that should make you happy, after all you guys are supposed to be _friends_!

Yes, what I've stated here is easier said than done, but it seems like the situation has turned out to be much bigger than it needs to be. Sit down and set things straight. You have your differences, but hey, thats life...


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## PEZenfuego (Dec 29, 2009)

Here's a link. One of many. Not as if it matters considering you can find links that argue the opposite. For the record, I never stated these numbers as being facts. I showed you my belief and you shot it down. You had every right to shoot it down just like you have every right to believe in what you want to believe. http://www.trueorigin.org/abio.asp


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## Stefan (Dec 29, 2009)

PatrickJameson said:


> Really, all I want is just a LITTLE proof of the numbers you have presented.


http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&q="one+in+10+to+the+89,900+power"&aq=f&oq=&aqi=


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## PEZenfuego (Dec 29, 2009)

StefanPochmann said:


> PatrickJameson said:
> 
> 
> > Really, all I want is just a LITTLE proof of the numbers you have presented.
> ...



I think they wanted it straight from the horses mouth...but it's cool when things work out like that isn't it?


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## Stefan (Dec 29, 2009)

PEZenfuego said:


> I think they wanted it straight from the horses mouth...but it's cool when things work out like that isn't it?


No idea what you're trying to say.


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## nlCuber22 (Dec 29, 2009)

StefanPochmann said:


> PEZenfuego said:
> 
> 
> > I think they wanted it straight from the horses mouth...but it's cool when things work out like that isn't it?
> ...



Pretty sure this is how it goes -
Horse's mouth = direct source

cool when things work out that way = how the google result was this page and only one other one, making it his obvious source, or the "horse's mouth" in this case.


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## Stefan (Dec 29, 2009)

PEZenfuego said:


> the other page was obviously my source.


Which you kept secret because...


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## PEZenfuego (Dec 29, 2009)

StefanPochmann said:


> PEZenfuego said:
> 
> 
> > the other page was obviously my source.
> ...



I wasn't keeping it a secret. I was just being apathetic. I posted it later though.


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## OregonTrail (Dec 29, 2009)

The way that I visualize the propagation of self replicating organic structures is by thinking of atomic interactions in terms of governing equations, more commonly known as the laws of physics. Whether it be large scale or quantum equations, we as a species have been able to determine patterns in the world around us. These patterns have led to technological advancements that are simply unfathomable to a very large portion of the world's population.

One of the best ways to visualize complex interactions is with the use of a graph or plot. There are families of recursive equations that produce images that seem extremely complex, known as fractals. Take for example, the Mandelbulb, a plot in the real 3d plane of the form z = z^n + c.

Images. Video.

Now, imagine showing one of these images to an average person on the street. If you asked them to recreate the image down to the exact details, they might look at you as though you were insane. It's true that these images seem extremely complex, although they stem from an equation that a 2-year-old could memorize in seconds.

Now think of the universe as a huge set of "instances of equations representing atomic interactions". A given area of the universe a playing field where atomic interactions play out. Now imagine that one of these locales happens to represent one equation of chemical interaction equivalent to a single member of the set of recursive functions. This anomaly being atomic structures that self replicate. If one considers the number of stars in the universe, as derived from observable stellar density, 9 billion trillion stars, it seems highly probably that one out of 9000000000000000000000 locations containing a natural reactor transforming extreme magnitudes of thermal energy would represent an interaction analogous to a single recursive function being randomly written down on a piece of paper.

Over time, atomic structures that self replicate become naturally more resilient to their surroundings, as the successful structures pass on their current mature structure and method of replication to future generations. At a much greater scale than the probability of this system coming about in the first place, mistakes are made during replication. These properties can be observed in bacteria in a matter of hours. 

Incredible traits that these self replicating structures now posses, such as the eyesight that you are using right now, may seem miraculous. But just as a Mandelbulb seems incredible to a person on the street, there is a very simple equation to the workings of the human eye: a fairly large array of photosensitive cells that transmit chroma and intensity information in the form of electric signals. Why are your eyes on your head? Because the photosensitive cells survived when they were closer to cells used for neurotransmission. How do our eyes have the ability to focus? When an image is focused, it creates a cascade of positive neurochemical reactions conducive to homeostasis. The organisms with this simple muscular ability were able to have more children than those that didn't. 

And one must remember that this progress happened over the course of *4 Billion* Years. You think you've been alive for quite a while? Assuming that you might be 20 years old, imagine living your entire life 20 millions times over. Now considering the fact that bacteria can prove resistance to an antibiotic in a matter of 12 hours (something that at their scale would look like a generation of humans that are suddenly born with titanium plating on their face), and you can imagine the incredible evolved traits that must exist on this planet waiting to be discovered.

At this point I think that you understand my point. Our planet may seem incredible, it may seem utterly impossible that it could exist without some sort of intelligent force. But the fact is that we are the lucky ones looking *out* into the rest of the universe. The fact that you have the logical capacity to consider the improbability of your existence is because *you* are the improbable statistic. The nitrogen in your body is being used to synthesize the proteins in your brain so that you can look at the night sky. Those atoms of nitrogen aren't millions of light-years away experiencing a supernova. They are lucky atoms. They happened to make their way to potentially the only spot in the universe where self-replicating structures exist.

Rather than waste time thinking up stories about "almighty creators" of the universe who for some reason care about how many sheep you give to your neighbor on a certain day of our year, let us use our capacity for thought to observe what we can about our incredible set of circumstances.


----------



## Stefan (Dec 29, 2009)

PEZenfuego said:


> I was just being apathetic.


Or... a moron.



PEZenfuego said:


> I posted it later though.


No you didn't.


----------



## PEZenfuego (Dec 29, 2009)

StefanPochmann said:


> PEZenfuego said:
> 
> 
> > I was just being apathetic.
> ...



Okay. I'm an idiot. You win. Congratulations. Thanks.


----------



## Stefan (Dec 29, 2009)

StefanPochmann said:


> PEZenfuego said:
> 
> 
> > I was just being apathetic.
> ...


To clarify: That was *not* a judgment of your beliefs, just of how you acted in the discussion. Please don't make a magic claim and then when people ask for more information go like _"Na na na na na na, I'm not telling"_. That's just disrespectful. And borderline moronic, though I'd like to apologize for that comment.


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## PEZenfuego (Dec 29, 2009)

StefanPochmann said:


> StefanPochmann said:
> 
> 
> > PEZenfuego said:
> ...



No I'm definitely stupid. You don't need to apologize. Just know that it wasn't necessary to point out that fact. I was well aware of it.


----------



## DavidWoner (Dec 29, 2009)

StefanPochmann said:


> PEZenfuego said:
> 
> 
> > the other page was obviously my source.
> ...



Because it doesn't support his claim. 1 in 10^89,900 is the estimate given for abiogenesis on Earth alone, it doesn't take into account the other planets. Now consider the untold billions of galaxies, each with hundreds of millions of stars over billions of years. I also questions the numbers provided on that site. The only citation given leads to a site that does not work. I will do a bit more digging.


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## Weston (Dec 29, 2009)

I wish there was a way to bring Ray Comfort into this. Hes hilarious.


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## TheCubeElite (Dec 29, 2009)

4Chan said:


> Hate them back with twice the malice.



+1


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## Zane_C (Dec 29, 2009)

Hahaha, I just read all the posts and some of them are good. 
Back to the first post, they aren't very good friends, now back to other posts.

I previously seen a post saying that the bible has stuff that has evidence.
Please give some examples, I'll give it a rebutle.
*I'm going to give everyone ready this post a link*, the best site I've ever seen on the topic of god. 
Here you will find very strong evidence of gods absence.

http://godisimaginary.com/


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## Weston (Dec 29, 2009)

Zane_C said:


> Hahaha, I just read all the posts and some of them are good.
> Back to the first post, they aren't very good friends, now back to other posts.
> 
> I previously seen a post saying that the bible has stuff that has evidence.
> ...



Not only that, just listen to Thunderf00t on youtube. Hes incredible.


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## qqwref (Dec 29, 2009)

PEZenfuego said:


> Here's a link. One of many. Not as if it matters considering you can find links that argue the opposite. For the record, I never stated these numbers as being facts. I showed you my belief and you shot it down. You had every right to shoot it down just like you have every right to believe in what you want to believe. http://www.trueorigin.org/abio.asp



Hm, let's take a look at that article.
Jerry Bergman, Ph.D.. OK, sounds respectable enough...
© 1999 Creation Research Society. WAIT A MINUTE

I'm not gonna go actually read the article, but the fact that the number is so large pretty seems to me to say that something in the calculation was completely wrong. When I think of the idea of abiogenesis I imagine that it would have started essentially as soon as something that was more or less self-replicating was brought into existance. At that point it can reproduce and mutate and so on. So I guess the question is "what's the smallest molecule that can make more of itself" and the answer doesn't have to be a whole cell, just something simple along the lines of RNA or whatever. The whole idea behind building blocks of life is that they can build on each other, so once a basic one gets started off it can reproduce itself and add more on and so on. This whole process took something like a billion years anyway, so it's not like this stuff happens overnight - it's a long process, but not at all something that wouldn't happen.


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## AndyRoo789 (Dec 29, 2009)

@TS: Just ignore them, I'm sure there are some people who would still be your friend.



Zane_C said:


> Musli4brekkies said:
> 
> 
> > I don't believe in believing in anything. I don't like being told what to do, especially by people who refuse to accept evidence. I'm not going to try and stop other people though, as that just causes problems.
> ...



There's no proof of any religion, that's why you need faith.



Hakan said:


> It's because they are idiots, that's why.
> 
> Being a kid might have something to do with it. See, kids don't really have religious beliefs. They are fed by other people (I won't go into that). You have to realise that *kids are naturally idiots*, it's not your fault. You are not an evil person, nor should they make you feel like one.
> 
> ...



That was uncalled for. 



aznmortalx said:


> nlCuber22 said:
> 
> 
> > No one will take you seriously if you use improper grammar.
> ...



But what if you've already done some research, and you want some help from the forums?


And everyone bashing nlcuber about correcting people's grammar, I agree what he's doing is not necessary, but so what?
I looked through the links someone gave of nlcuber repeatedly correcting people, and in none of them did the person get angry about being corrected.

Why are you getting mad about him correcting people?
It's not hurting anybody and he's not doing anything wrong.
Only reason I agree on is, if he only makes a correction, and doesn't contribute to the thread. That would be a waste of a post.

If you think about it, you're doing the same thing nlcuber is - being bothered by a little something someone said.


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## Zane_C (Dec 29, 2009)

:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp

*Evolution is not a myth!!!!!!*
There's proof, just look at the fossils of Homo Erectus, practically the same species with some slight variations.
All life on earth arose from the same origin.
3.9 billion years ago earth arose, no one knows how, but it did.
A theory is that life hitched a ride to earth on a comet.
Back then there were only single celled beings, about 2 billion years later they worked out they could have advantages if they accumulated, and so multiple cells worked together to form basic plants and created photosynthesis.

Around 500 million years ago, the earth experienced what is known as the cambrian explosion. Over about 80 million years large complex life got started. Sea creatures, insects and other oganisms emerged.

Millions of years later the dinosours came along, 65 million years ago they were wiped out by the Chixculub meteor.
Around 2 million years ago the first of human primates got going, when Africa dryed up we climbed down from the trees and started walking for food. 
Modern humans (homo sapiens) arose around 200,000 years ago.

Here we are now. 

All life is one, by that meaning we all derived from the same cells.
50% of the DNA in banana is identical to me and you.

thanks for reading


----------



## bwatkins (Dec 29, 2009)

ZaneC---> I myself do not claim to be of any religion. This link you have provided has many flaws in it that i have found over the 5-10 mins i have spend reading it. 

To begin it claims that "God is supposed to have incarnated himself as Jesus and he is supposed to have written the Bible."
http://godisimaginary.com/i49.htm

Anyone who has ever read any of the bible will know that GOD or JESUS did not write the bible but that there are 40 spiritually divine prophets that have recorded these events. In no way is GOD or JESUS the author of the bible.

Also, this site states in PROOF 1:
"What would happen if we get down on our knees and pray to God in this way:

Dear God, almighty, all-powerful, all-loving creator of the universe, we pray to you to cure every case of cancer on this planet tonight. We pray in faith, knowing you will bless us as you describe in Matthew 7:7, Matthew 17:20, Matthew 21:21, Mark 11:24, John 14:12-14, Matthew 18:19 and James 5:15-16. In Jesus' name we pray, Amen.
We pray sincerely, knowing that when God answers this completely heartfelt, unselfish, non-materialistic prayer, it will glorify God and help millions of people in remarkable ways.
Will anything happen? No. Of course not."

This is absurd. This sounds great and makes those who already have a tendency to NOT believe in god further solidify their views. It is however written in John 15:7 and Psalms 147:11 that:
"If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given you." 
and
"The Lord delights in those who fear [reverence] him, who put their hope in his unfailing love."

To begin, the first passage states that you must have given your life to God for him to answer your prayers. God is not the almighty creature who fixes EVERYONES problems, but rather rewards those who have become and established a relationship with him that he desires. To have a prayer answered you must have been forgiven of every sin, something that VERY FEW PEOPLE have had happen to them. 

If one were to make a prayer as stated in Proof 1, they would be acting not in the holy way the Lord expects them took, and thus this prayer would obviously not be answered because of this. The second passage states that God loves those who fear him. For one to ask for such a bold thing, you would not embody this characteristic. 

This website you have provided is great propaganda. To the uneducated, or the extremely biased(ly) educated it sounds like wonderful proof. Really all this site is doing is exploiting the bible by misinterpreting the underlying messages it posses.

To claim that this is the "the best site I've ever seen on the topic of god" all you are showing is that you have a very large knowledge of proving God inexistent, however a very small knowledge of what the bible truly embodies.

After all to make a true an educated informed decision, you must have equal knowlege of both parties, and i believe that this site is simply very fine craftsmanship to misinform the uneducated.

*To clarify, i claim myself to no religion, or no set of religious beliefs. I feel as if it is too hard to prove the existence of God true or Flase, thus i remain skeptical and just enjoy trying to piece the puzzle together myself.*


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## Zane_C (Dec 29, 2009)

bwatkins said:


> ZaneC---> I myself do not claim to be of any religion. This link you have provided has many flaws in it that i have found over the 5-10 mins i have spend reading it.
> 
> To begin it claims that "God is supposed to have incarnated himself as Jesus and he is supposed to have written the Bible."
> http://godisimaginary.com/i49.htm
> ...



And that, is a good speech, very well done.

I agree, I havn't read the bible so my bible knowledge is very limited, but I do remember some stuff on the front page of the bible:
God made the bla bla bla, and he said "It was good" something along those lines anyway.

You seem to be saying that the site has flaws, what about the bible?

If you have to determine which is more legit:
The website, *which has very few flaws*, 
or the Bible, *nearly every word*

What is more logical?

I'm sure the site has some flaws, but you will find more right then wrong. 

In the end it all comes down to this:
A debate between Fact and Faith.

Again, which is more logical?
Proven facts? or faith with zero evidence?

For me, Fact beats Faith


----------



## nitrocan (Dec 29, 2009)

cooldayr said:


> So in school about to weeks ago everyone found out I was an atheist
> Now everyone hates me
> Why is this?



I wouldn't know for sure why that is, but maybe people don't think well of atheists where you live.
Well some people from my school think that I'm an atheist. They don't care at all. Actually some of my friends are atheists too.



Zane_C said:


> *Evolution is not a myth!!!!!!*
> ...
> thanks for reading



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uz6IxZsLwlo

I mean it's too arrogant for people to call evolution a myth and a conspiracy.



EmersonHerrmann said:


> I'm agnostic and yet accused (jokingly) of being an atheist by one of my friends who is Christian. I'm not religious, it's just how I am. In fact I worship George Carlin



Who doesn't? 
I think I am an agnostic too, but it all boils down to "I'm not a theist".


----------



## Escher (Dec 29, 2009)

Zane_C said:


> Again, which is more logical?
> Proven facts? or faith with zero evidence?
> 
> For me, Fact beats Faith



Oh sure, because the 'proven facts' we have disprove God... riiiiight... 
And anyway, religious people claim that religious experiences show that there is a higher power. They also claim that the existence of religion in the first place, in almost every past and present society we know of, shows that we in general have some kind of natural capacity for it and that could have been intended by the 'Designer'.


----------



## Weston (Dec 29, 2009)

Escher said:


> Zane_C said:
> 
> 
> > Again, which is more logical?
> ...



Personal experience doesn't actually prove anything. While the experience might have been true, the interpretation of that experience may not have been. And why I think that so many societies have religions is that they couldn't find a way to explain things they didn't understand, so they used religion to fill that hole. 

Thats just me though.


----------



## Escher (Dec 29, 2009)

Weston said:


> Personal experience doesn't actually prove anything. While the experience might have been true, the interpretation of that experience may not have been. And why I think that so many societies have religions is that they couldn't find a way to explain things they didn't understand, so they used religion to fill that hole.
> 
> Thats just me though.



Well yeah, of course both of those are perfectly good and rational explanations 
What I'm trying to say is that no one party has the right to say either _definitely_ does or doesn't exist. Both need to accept that neither can prove each other wrong, and this Zane guy needs to know that there are no facts which disprove God. Obviously there are anachronisms in the Bible and other religious texts, but that isn't the point...


----------



## Weston (Dec 29, 2009)

Escher said:


> Weston said:
> 
> 
> > Personal experience doesn't actually prove anything. While the experience might have been true, the interpretation of that experience may not have been. And why I think that so many societies have religions is that they couldn't find a way to explain things they didn't understand, so they used religion to fill that hole.
> ...


Its true that it can't really be proven definitely. But there is quite a bit of stuff that makes it seem unreasonable and the existence of a god unlikely.

I feel like this Zane guy has been itching for a religious discussion for a while and now that its finally on the forum, he's going crazy.


----------



## Zane_C (Dec 29, 2009)

Lol, I just like to get involved thats all 
I have been in a discussion like this before and got banned for a short time so I'm not going to say much more

By the way, just call me Zane instead of "that Zane guy", I'm sure we can all get along


----------



## Prodigy_X (Dec 29, 2009)

Hi everybody, i am new to this website and i have my own personal views about this discussion.

First of all, i have no religous background.
Second of all, i believe that everbody has there own opinions but you cannot deny the cold hard facts of life.
there is no such thing as god, reincarnation and so forth, if you have taken your time to read this thank you,
but for the mean time there is nothing that can prove god exists.
in light of this discussion something from the bible

“As a man thinks in his heart, so is he. [Proverbs 23:7]”


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## Zane_C (Dec 29, 2009)

You think like me, I like your thinkin'


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## nitrocan (Dec 29, 2009)

Prodigy_X said:


> Hi everybody, i am new to this website and i have my own personal views about this discussion.
> 
> First of all, i have no religous background.
> Second of all, i believe that everbody has there own opinions but you cannot deny the cold hard facts of life.
> ...



Although I partially share your opinions, you are just as plain and arrogant as the people you are opposing.
Want cold facts? Science is all about theories. You can never say "This is the ultimate truth, end of story". It seems to me that you are itching for a debate.


----------



## Muesli (Dec 29, 2009)

If the universe is infinite, then there are an infinite number of worlds containing an infinite number of combinations of atoms. One was guaranteed to create what we know as life. It's no more of a coincidence that two hydrogens and an oxygen make water. It was bound to happen, no divine influence needed.


----------



## PatrickJameson (Dec 29, 2009)

Musli4brekkies said:


> If the universe is infinite, then there are an infinite number of worlds containing an infinite number of combinations of atoms.



The universe is not infinite.


----------



## Muesli (Dec 29, 2009)

PatrickJameson said:


> Musli4brekkies said:
> 
> 
> > If the universe is infinite, then there are an infinite number of worlds containing an infinite number of combinations of atoms.
> ...


Prove it.  Nobody knows, and nobody can know.


----------



## nitrocan (Dec 29, 2009)

Musli4brekkies said:


> If the universe is infinite, then there are an infinite number of worlds containing an infinite number of combinations of atoms. One was guaranteed to create what we know as life. It's no more of a coincidence that two hydrogens and an oxygen make water. It was bound to happen, no divine influence needed.



No life was guarantied, but that's the way it happened.

So actually you could say it was guaranteed


----------



## Escher (Dec 29, 2009)

Weston said:


> Its true that it can't really be proven definitely. But there is quite a bit of stuff that makes it seem unreasonable and the existence of a god unlikely.
> 
> I feel like this Zane guy has been itching for a religious discussion for a while and now that its finally on the forum, he's going crazy.



Yeah, I can tell 

Perhaps that stuff makes it seem unlikely and unreasonable to you, but for somebody that has had convincing religious experiences, it might be completely beside the point.

I'm well aware that we might all have the same experiences and just label them differently, but I don't think it is that simple; what about people who convert from a completely atheist background to a religion? Were they just 'a bit religious' in the first place? Did they succumb to societal/social pressures? Did they realise they have a paralyzing fear of death and they wanted comfort?

I find the whole thing pretty interesting 



Prodigy_X said:


> First of all, i have no religous background.
> Second of all, i believe that everbody has there own opinions but you cannot deny the cold hard facts of life.
> there is no such thing as god, reincarnation and so forth, if you have taken your time to read this thank you,
> but for the mean time there is nothing that can prove god exists.
> ...



So what you are saying is that there is "no such thing as God, reincarnation and so forth" and there is "nothing that can prove God exists", yet by the same logic you _can't_ prove that there _isn't_ a God or that there is no such thing as reincarnation.

I get extremely frustrated with this kind of 'opinion imperialism' that is present in both camps. Since the issue of existence _is_ opinion it seems very arrogant to go around telling people that they are completely wrong.


----------



## PEZenfuego (Dec 29, 2009)

Musli4brekkies said:


> PatrickJameson said:
> 
> 
> > Musli4brekkies said:
> ...



I believe that it is finite. You can't prove it false but that is incredibly hard to wrap your mind around. Not to mention that it contradicts the Big Bang Theory. If the universe was infinite, then that means that there is another planet that is a perfect clone of our planet right down to every cell and every molecule. That's because the amount of matter and life on Earth is certainly finite. 

Even though the probability is almost 0, when paired with a universe where matter is infinite...doesn't that make it a sure thing?


----------



## Zane_C (Dec 29, 2009)

I know, this is an on going debate, don't we all get fustrated?

The universe is expanding and it is not infinite, but it's so big you may aswell call it infinite.

Ok, I don't know how much of you all know about history, but a few hundred years ago bible based religeons claimed that the moon was perfectly smooth and the sun orbited the earth. Infact they even thought stars were painted in the sky by god and the earth was only several thousands of years old.
As soon as Galileo Galilei pointed his telescope to the moon in 1609, he realized it had mountains just like earth and was not smooth at all. He also stated that the Earth orbited the sun, not the other way around.
The catholic church were proven wrong, so they changed their text books and went with the flow, this is what religeon does, it has always changed to fit in. 
The old bible testiment said that all homosexuals should burn in hell, why does this not fit in with modern bible religeons?

I am saying all this to point out that religeon changes once they've been proven wrong, I truely wonder what will happen if life outside earth is discovered.
Now that is what I'll love to see, the bible being proven completely wrong.

Then again, religeon will get around it.

Sincerely Zane Carney, not "Zane guy"


----------



## Muesli (Dec 29, 2009)

Zane_C said:


> The catholic church were proven wrong, so they changed their text books and went with the flow, this is what religeon does, it has always changed to fit in.



Lol, no. They tortured Galileo and put him under house arrest until he died because they didn't like his ideas.


----------



## aronpm (Dec 29, 2009)

Escher said:


> I get extremely frustrated with this kind of 'opinion imperialism' that is present in both camps. Since the issue of existence _is_ opinion it seems very arrogant to go around telling people that they are completely wrong.



This is exactly why I consider myself an 'agnostic atheist'. I understand that the existence of gods cannot be (dis)proven, but I do not believe that they exist. I am sick of seeing people saying "God is real, non-believers are heretics" just as much as "God is a lie, you're all ignorant idiots."

Although, I very much dislike organized religion, mainly because of the extent of power they receive in politics. Think of how much Christianity is embedded into the government of the USA, despite the Founding Fathers forming a secular nation. If an organized religion can gain such a strong foothold in a nation that was built on secular values, I worry about how strong it can become in other nations.

If someone does believe in a god or gods, they should do some philosophical thinking and determine what THEY think faith is about, not learn from books whose meaning have been lost in translation and selective editing. If people were to do this, instead of blindly accepting the religion forced onto them by parents and the community, I believe that people would be smarter, more open-minded and more tolerant of others.

@Musli: I'm going to ignore your statements about an infinite universe. It may sound good for an early-twentieth-century scifi book, but as a cosmological model, it's severely lacking in credible evidence.


----------



## Muesli (Dec 29, 2009)

aronpm said:


> @Musli: I'm going to ignore your statements about an infinite universe. It may sound good for an early-twentieth-century scifi book, but as a cosmological model, it's severely lacking in credible evidence.



There is next to no evidence for a finite universe either.


----------



## Owen (Dec 29, 2009)

Musli4brekkies said:


> aronpm said:
> 
> 
> > @Musli: I'm going to ignore your statements about an infinite universe. It may sound good for an early-twentieth-century scifi book, but as a cosmological model, it's severely lacking in credible evidence.
> ...



We can estimate the size of the universe by comparing it's rate of expansion and age.


----------



## Edward (Dec 29, 2009)

These debates go nowhere. Neither of the numerous parties will ever agree on anything. If nothing can be proven, how can you argue about it? When nothing can be proven, it comes down to what you truly believe in, and no amount of arguing or discussion will sway that (99%of the time). With no facts it just becomes a game of "I'm right because you cant prove xyz" "No I'm right because you can't prove zyxz". I'm not saying its always like this, but that's basically whats happening here.


----------



## Escher (Dec 29, 2009)

Edward said:


> These debates go nowhere. Neither of the numerous parties will ever agree on anything. If nothing can be proven, how can you argue about it? When nothing can be proven, it comes down to what you truly believe in, and no amount of arguing or discussion will sway that (99%of the time). With no facts it just becomes a game of "I'm right because you cant prove xyz" "No I'm right because you can't prove zyxz". I'm not saying its always like this, but that's basically whats happening here.



Welcome to religious debate.


----------



## bwatkins (Dec 29, 2009)

Zane_C said:


> You seem to be saying that the site has flaws, what about the bible?
> 
> If you have to determine which is more legit:
> The website, *which has very few flaws*,
> ...


You make a good point, but what facts exactly are you talking about? The scientific fact / statistic / evidence that definitively proves our existence without God?...that doesn't yet exist my friend, so these "facts" you speak of are really just dancing around the overall goal of proving God inexistent.



Prodigy_X said:


> but for the mean time there is nothing that can prove god exists.


Nothing can 100% prove that he doesn't exisit either.



Edward said:


> These debates go nowhere. Neither of the numerous parties will ever agree on anything. If nothing can be proven, how can you argue about it? When nothing can be proven, it comes down to what you truly believe in, and no amount of arguing or discussion will sway that (99%of the time). With no facts it just becomes a game of "I'm right because you cant prove xyz" "No I'm right because you can't prove zyxz". I'm not saying its always like this, but that's basically whats happening here.


True we may not agree, but it's not about converting one another so much as having a constructive conversations about our origins. None the less it is slightly educational.


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## fanwuq (Dec 29, 2009)

Edward said:


> These debates go nowhere. Neither of the numerous parties will ever agree on anything. If nothing can be proven, how can you argue about it? When nothing can be proven, it comes down to what you truly believe in, and no amount of arguing or discussion will sway that (99%of the time). With no facts it just becomes a game of "I'm right because you cant prove xyz" "No I'm right because you can't prove zyxz". I'm not saying its always like this, but that's basically whats happening here.



You are right. The point of these debate is who can make the coolest arguments. No one really cares about convincing others; it's more about good debating technique.



DavidWoner said:


> Parity said:
> 
> 
> > And if you want evidence of god then look threw a Bible and you will see a lot of things it says has happened.
> ...


This post wins.


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## Muesli (Dec 29, 2009)

Owen said:


> Musli4brekkies said:
> 
> 
> > aronpm said:
> ...


We can guess. We have no idea how long those galaxies have been moving for, if they are slowing down or speeding up or where they came from. All we know is that they're all moving away from something and the ones furthest away are the fastest.


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## Deleted member 2864 (Dec 29, 2009)

AndyRoo789 said:


> But what if you've already done some research, and you want some help from the forums?
> 
> 
> And everyone bashing nlcuber about correcting people's grammar, I agree what he's doing is not necessary, but so what?
> ...



If you want some help on the forums, then by all means, get help  My statement on lmgtfy wasn't of serious nature.

Well, I thought somebody would reply saying exactly what you said. It's a good point, except my post correcting him making corrections is not fully about his habit. What I meant to do with that post is to keep him from making more useless posts. While this doesn't contribute to the thread, maybe he'd quit the habit. That, I think still contributes to a person's habits for the forum.

Also, seeing as this has become a debate of belief, I just have to say something. I was taught that to appreciate faith, you don't _know_, you _believe_ The forming of the universe, evolution, and closed/open universe model are all _theories_. While I find myself swayed by science, I keep in mind these are only theories. I doubt the will be proven wrong/right anytime soon. While I may believe in some of this, I still think there's a divine force out there.

I'm influenced by science, but I still believe.


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## Sandbest (Dec 29, 2009)

Zane_C said:


> As soon as Galileo Galilei pointed his telescope to the moon in 1609, he realized it had mountains just like earth and was not smooth at all. He also stated that the Earth orbited the sun, not the other way around.


First of all, I don't know anything about history, but I do know something about physics. But I get the impression you don't (actually) know anything at all about these subjects (first the "Global Warming" and now this).

It's true Galileo did get trouble with the Catholic Church, but not "Galileo stated that the Earth orbited the sun", but that was Nicolaus Copernicus in 1543 and he only got some resistence from some protestants.


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## metal_cuber (Dec 29, 2009)

i was told by family that the pentagram was satanic, therefore i shouldnt wear the heartagram. i found out that the reason the pentagram is satanic is because it was used by pythagoras and his followers. and it was not used by them for satanic worship but to study as it had many mathematical things about it including the golden rectangle. since the church doesnt want you to beliewve fact they said that both the scientists and the symbol were evil and/or satanic


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## Logan (Dec 29, 2009)

I would love to see the end of the universe! Just this huge black wall of some matter. Or we just go into infinite white nothing. How do you guys think the universe would stop? I know it's impossible to comprehend, but try


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## JLarsen (Dec 29, 2009)

Zane_C said:


> Musli4brekkies said:
> 
> 
> > I don't believe in believing in anything. I don't like being told what to do, especially by people who refuse to accept evidence. I'm not going to try and stop other people though, as that just causes problems.
> ...



People turn to religion to give explanations to the inexplicable, specifically the great question of where we came from, and the purpose of their lives and such. Nobody turns to religion because they saw some astounding evidence supporting a certain religion. That's why there are unfathomable amounts of religions on the planet.


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## Deleted member 2864 (Dec 29, 2009)

Logan said:


> I would love to see the end of the universe! Just this huge black wall of some matter. Or we just go into infinite white nothing. How do you guys think the universe would stop? I know it's impossible to comprehend, but try



There's the closed universe model, which suggests that the universe goes through cycles of expansion, then eventually slows down. After that, it collapses and a cycle will eventually start again. If this theory is correct, then there is an end to the universe I guess...


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## DavidWoner (Dec 29, 2009)

Musli4brekkies said:


> aronpm said:
> 
> 
> > @Musli: I'm going to ignore your statements about an infinite universe. It may sound good for an early-twentieth-century scifi book, but as a cosmological model, it's severely lacking in credible evidence.
> ...



Except the laws of physics. If you believe the universe is infinite then you cannot believe that the Big Bang happened.



Logan said:


> I would love to see the end of the universe! Just this huge black wall of some matter. Or we just go into infinite white nothing. How do you guys think the universe would stop? I know it's impossible to comprehend, but try



No such thing as "white nothing" either. For it to appear white that would require some sort of light source, aka something, aka not nothing.


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## Muesli (Dec 29, 2009)

DavidWoner said:


> Musli4brekkies said:
> 
> 
> > aronpm said:
> ...


If energy and matter cannot be created or destroyed, that must mean that there never was any in the first place. The laws of physics seem to not support a big bang universe either.


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## Cride5 (Dec 29, 2009)

Escher said:


> Edward said:
> 
> 
> > These debates go nowhere. Neither of the numerous parties will ever agree on anything. If nothing can be proven, how can you argue about it? When nothing can be proven, it comes down to what you truly believe in, and no amount of arguing or discussion will sway that (99%of the time). With no facts it just becomes a game of "I'm right because you cant prove xyz" "No I'm right because you can't prove zyxz". I'm not saying its always like this, but that's basically whats happening here.
> ...



Well I guess we can all agree that its impossible to prove that (1) God does exist or (2) God doesn't exist.

When making my choice between believing (1) or (2) above, I'll just go with the most plausible option.

No prizes for guessing which one that is


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## Ethan Rosen (Dec 29, 2009)

So am I ter only one here who worships Joe Pesci?


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## DavidWoner (Dec 29, 2009)

Musli4brekkies said:


> DavidWoner said:
> 
> 
> > Musli4brekkies said:
> ...



The origin of matter/energy is a separate issue, and not really relevant to what I was saying. Currently there is no scientific explanation for the origin of matter. I was merely talking about our current universe.

If the universe is infinite, then there is infinite matter. If you believe the Big Bang occured, that means at one time there was an infinite amount of matter condensed in a single point. This would result in an infinite gravitational force, rendering the Big Bang impossible.


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## attomo (Dec 29, 2009)

There is more way disproving religions than proving then. same kettle of fish as people who think aliens are real. no proof but they think they are real.


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## nitrocan (Dec 29, 2009)

Ethan Rosen said:


> So am I ter only one here who worships Joe Pesci?



No no I'm with you.

Only if Carlin hadn't died...


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## Muesli (Dec 29, 2009)

DavidWoner said:


> Musli4brekkies said:
> 
> 
> > DavidWoner said:
> ...


You're assuming that an incredible amount of matter just blipped into existence and exploded as the big bang. Creation of energy and matter is very relevant because how could it have happened any other way? The current physics model of energy never being destroyed/created just doesn't support the theory of the big bang.


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## JL58 (Dec 29, 2009)

In one of the very early responses one said "I'd love you to believe" or something of the kind. This has always bothered me with most religions: the activism around them is really irritating. For christians, this is especially strong in the US. Add to this the dependency they build (christians, islamists, etc.) with politics and you find yourself having to make decisions about society (voting) through religious influence. 

Isn't religious belief a spiritual, individual, internal choice? Does it have to become a social trait?

And yet, there's much to say about the way the US found an identity around church, building a strong sense of community (even today) through "God". This has almost completely disappeared in Western Europe for instance.


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## Dene (Dec 29, 2009)

Do you guys hear yourselves? This is the lamest thread I have ever seen in my life. If it weren't for the oppression of certain mods, I would have destroyed this thread a long time ago. How about an end to the misery?


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## JL58 (Dec 29, 2009)

On what ground?


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## iasimp1997 (Dec 29, 2009)

theretardedcuber said:


> if they follow religion and they hate you because you are athiest then they are wimps... i think some people think everything is about religion..
> i dont belive in religion at all its total rubbish but if people wana waste their time worshiping a made up character (god) then let them waste there time dosent bother me



Then you will go to hell. I'm a Christian, and this thread offends me and my religion. Can a moderator PLEASE CLOSE AND DELETE THIS THREAD? I'm sure some people's replies are offending to other people too. I do not plan on reading this thread anymore, and I'm reporting all replies that are offending to Christianity.


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## 4Chan (Dec 29, 2009)




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## nitrocan (Dec 29, 2009)

iasimp1997 said:


> theretardedcuber said:
> 
> 
> > if they follow religion and they hate you because you are athiest then they are wimps... i think some people think everything is about religion..
> ...



Wow! So you are going to report all replies offending christianity, but not report the ones that are offending other religions? How about offending atheism?

Thanks for our hell insurance.

But this forum is too full of fanatic atheists who haven't had their share of a discussion.


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## iasimp1997 (Dec 29, 2009)

By the way, this thread has seriously offended me. THINK BEFORE YOU POST, ATHEISTS 
I have no other problems with atheists (besides the fact they don't believe in God). But I will if they post their retarded opinions on how humans "evolved" from MONKEYS (bull).


CAN A MODERATOR PLEASE CLOSE THIS THREAD? THANK YOU SO MUCH IN ADVANCE!


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## Muesli (Dec 29, 2009)

iasimp1997 said:


> I have no other problems with atheists (besides the fact they don't believe in God). But I will if they post their retarded opinions on how humans "evolved" from MONKEYS (bull).


Sigh. Think before you post. I'm perfectly tolerant of christians but this blind dismissal of well grounded evidence is reall irritating to me. FYI we evolved form Apes.


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## JL58 (Dec 29, 2009)

Furthermore, censuring people because they express a different opinions than yours could lead to paths we know too well. If you don't like to hear/read about these opinions, you can always keep confined in your own microcosm. If your conviction cannot stand opposition or scrutiny it does not stand for much, whatever side you are on. 

But yet again... why does it bother you that people have a different opinion than yours??? Isn't religion a personal choice? Why do you need your neighbors, your family members, your forum counterparts to either comply to your personal believes or not speak about it? 

I am an atheist and have many good friends who are devoted believers. Whenever the discussion comes around religion it is cordial and constructive. And when it becomes dry we switch to other things. Because our friendship is based on the sharing of values and the acceptance of substantial differences, not compliance.

I don't think religious activists have the monopoly of speech.


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## nitrocan (Dec 29, 2009)

iasimp1997 said:


> By the way, this thread has seriously offended me. THINK BEFORE YOU POST, ATHEISTS
> I have no other problems with atheists (besides the fact they don't believe in God). *But I will if they post their retarded opinions on how humans "evolved" from MONKEYS (bull).
> *
> 
> CAN A MODERATOR PLEASE CLOSE THIS THREAD? THANK YOU SO MUCH IN ADVANCE!


(BULL)

The retarded opinion as you call it, has been supported with every single fossil and experiment for over 150 years. Please don't blabber without reason.
You are the one who should think before posting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uz6IxZsLwlo


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## Cheese_Board (Dec 29, 2009)

iasimp1997 said:


> By the way, this thread has seriously offended me. THINK BEFORE YOU POST, ATHEISTS
> I have no other problems with atheists (besides the fact they don't believe in God). But I will if they post their retarded opinions on how humans "evolved" from MONKEYS (bull).
> 
> 
> CAN A MODERATOR PLEASE CLOSE THIS THREAD? THANK YOU SO MUCH IN ADVANCE!



So basically you are trying to take away their freedom of religion and freedom of speech?


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## iasimp1997 (Dec 29, 2009)

Musli4brekkies said:


> iasimp1997 said:
> 
> 
> > I have no other problems with atheists (besides the fact they don't believe in God). But I will if they post their retarded opinions on how humans "evolved" from MONKEYS (bull).
> ...



WELL GROUNDED EVIDENCE? BLIND DISMISSAL? You're the one to talk? Atheists believe in things like evolution because they aren't comfortable with believing in God. They automatically just adapt to "Evolutionism", and BLINDLY DISMISS Christianity and other religions as bull****.
I respect what atheists believe, just KEEP YOUR OPINIONS TO YOURSELF.


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## Cheese_Board (Dec 29, 2009)

iasimp1997 said:


> Musli4brekkies said:
> 
> 
> > iasimp1997 said:
> ...



I can't stop laughing at the irony of this post.


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## Deleted member 2864 (Dec 29, 2009)

nitrocan said:


> iasimp1997 said:
> 
> 
> > theretardedcuber said:
> ...



I think reporting any offensive posts in general is what he'll do. I'm sorry, the theretartedcber's response was blunt, cruel, and offensive. It shows no respect to anybody with a Faith and is unnecessary in a public forum where so many cultures blend. He also offended me to a personal level. Say your beliefs, but don't crush others. Calling religion rubbish is completely inconsiderate. I can personally say that I've grown to understand myself better through prayer and thought. I doubt theretartedcuber has even had or appreciated meditation or prayer. Whether somebody is answering or listening or not, having a spiritual time to think will help understand yourself.

Once again guys, you can't go around claiming what is theory is fact. You're being exactly what religious people do, and that's proclaiming things real with no proof that zeros out any other option at all. Evidence can be strong, and I believe in many scientific subjects, but you can't call theories fact, real, or otherwise true.



Cheese_Board said:


> iasimp1997 said:
> 
> 
> > By the way, this thread has seriously offended me. THINK BEFORE YOU POST, ATHEISTS
> ...



Nope, I think he's trying to take away a flame war before it happens



To the post below, keep it down a notch. We don't want a flamewar occurring.


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## Muesli (Dec 29, 2009)

iasimp1997 said:


> Musli4brekkies said:
> 
> 
> > iasimp1997 said:
> ...



WELL GROUNDED EVIDENCE? BLIND DISMISSAL? You're the one to talk? Christians believe in god because they aren't comfortable with believeing that we evolved from apes. They automatically just adapt to "Creationism" and BLINDLY DISMISS evolution and other theories as bull****.
I respect what christians believe, just KEEP YOUR OPINIONS TO YOURSELF.

Hey look. I took your argument and it inverts perfectly.


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## (X) (Dec 29, 2009)

iasimp1997 said:


> Musli4brekkies said:
> 
> 
> > iasimp1997 said:
> ...



Ahahaha, this has to be some kind of joke.


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## iasimp1997 (Dec 29, 2009)

(X) said:


> iasimp1997 said:
> 
> 
> > Musli4brekkies said:
> ...



CLOSE THIS THREAD


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## PatrickJameson (Dec 29, 2009)

iasimp1997 said:


> But I will if they post their retarded opinions on how humans "evolved" from MONKEYS (bull).



Evolution doesn't say we evolved from monkeys, it says we evolved from the same common ancestor as monkeys.


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## Cheese_Board (Dec 29, 2009)

iasimp1997 said:


> (X) said:
> 
> 
> > iasimp1997 said:
> ...



Is that really necessary? The only person trolling is you.


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## nlCuber22 (Dec 29, 2009)

This thread is entertaining. Please, continue with your mindless prattling.


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## Deleted member 2864 (Dec 29, 2009)

iasimp1997 said:


> (X) said:
> 
> 
> > iasimp1997 said:
> ...



+1 I'd like this to close. 

Really guys? Some people are really pissing me off. Not because of their beliefs, but because of the fact many of you are close-minded. That includes you iamsimp. You shouldn't be calling an atheist's beliefs bull. This is from another Christian.

And I'm done with this thread. I smell thread war.


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## 4Chan (Dec 29, 2009)




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## iasimp1997 (Dec 29, 2009)

nitrocan said:


> iasimp1997 said:
> 
> 
> > By the way, this thread has seriously offended me. THINK BEFORE YOU POST, ATHEISTS
> ...



Ok. I'll totally think and reject what I believe before i post.
This is what ruins forum communities. Bulls**t arguments like this over things like what we all believe. Moderators, please ban all threads like this.


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## nlCuber22 (Dec 29, 2009)

No, don't close the thread.
Let them continue their pointless arguments.
I want to see how this ends.

edit: 4Chan +1
edit2: the first one was better.
edit3:


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## iasimp1997 (Dec 29, 2009)

nlCuber22 said:


> No, don't close the thread.
> Let them continue their pointless arguments.
> I want to see how this ends.
> 
> edit: 4Chan +1



No, CLOSE THE THREAD.


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## 4Chan (Dec 29, 2009)

@nlcuber22

I changed it, because I thought I'd offend someone too bad, and get an infraction. D:


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## shelley (Dec 29, 2009)

Closing the thread, but not because iasimp1997 says so. I would leave it open if you had thoughtful arguments to discuss, but all I see is mindless prattling and flaming. Arguments about religion and politics are pointless and just get people mad at each other for no reason. You can't reason someone out of a position if they didn't use reason to get into that position in the first place. Same thing with faith.

iasimp1997, do some research. Evolution is supported by a lot of science, it's not a "retarded opinion" people believe in with no reason. While you're at it, figure out the difference between a scientific theory and the layman's definition of "theory".

Anyway, I leave you with this article: http://www.theonion.com/content/news/sumerians_look_on_in_confusion_as


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