# Age to Turnspeed Ratio - PLLs?



## Selkie (Oct 18, 2013)

I am sure this has been covered before but not for while. I believe I started a similar thread a couple of years ago.

We all discuss ways to improve times and elements to focus on to move off plateaus but I have been pretty much static for the best part of 18 months (circa 17 seconds) but having recently attended my first competition for over a year I have renewed motivation to get to my eventual sub 15 goal. In the two weeks since the comp I have reduced my ao12 pb twice from 16.45 to 16.00 and had my first 3 sub 15 Ao5s. This is pure motivation alone but I know I need to focus on weak areas of my solve.

I am well aware that I have a very low turnspeed and when I try to turn faster I suffer from lockups so one area of concentration is PLLs. Optimising (though I have already done this over a year ago) and drills.

I timed 10 of each PLL and took the best to give me a starting point before I start drills and was quite surprised by the results and it got me wondering how others faired and whether turnspeed is actually as affected by age and whether age is really excuse enough to blame for old age plateaus.

Solvers like Ron and Ton are certainly great motivators themselves but I would be interested in hearing solvers ages and their average PLL times.



I'll start...

(Individual times is interested) Ua = 1.27, Ub = 1.18, Z = 1.55, H = 1.30, Aa = 1.27, Ab = 1.22, E = 1.55, F = 1.97, Ga = 1.66, Gb = 1.88, Gc = 1.68, Gd = 1.75, Ja = 1.3, Jb = 1.31, Na = 1.78, Nb = 1.94, Ra = 1.58, Rb = 1.83, T = 1.36, V = 1.86, Y = 1.80

Total = 33.04 seconds
Average = 1.57
Age = 43


PS: It is already apparent that I do not solve my PLLs at this speed in solves. A promising enough statistic!


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## KongShou (Oct 18, 2013)

i sub 1.2 everything
sub1 everything else apart from g, f, v and n perms

age 16


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## Schmidt (Oct 18, 2013)

It is so time consuming! I just did the 100 move challenge (R U R' U') in 8.88 = ~11 TPS. Age 41
you should count the moves to get a avg. TPS as well.
and you should be glad to be "stuck" at 17 instead of at 22.


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## Username (Oct 18, 2013)

Aa: .78
Ab: .80
E: .99
F: 1.45
Ga: 1.24
Gb: 1.13
Gc: 1.44
Gd: 1.25
H: 1.11
Ja: 1.07
Jb: .79
Na: 1.37
Nb: 1.64
Ra: 1.11
Rb: 1.11
T: .91
Ua: .82
Ub: .86
V: 1.48
Y: 1.02
Z: 1.28

Total: 23.65
Mean: 1.13
Average (removing best and worst): 1.12
Age: 14

This was the best I could do with about 15 tries each


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## ben1996123 (Oct 18, 2013)

KongShou said:


> i sub 1.2 everything
> sub1 everything else apart from g, f, v and n perms
> 
> age 16



sub1 yperm wideo pls


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## cuboy63 (Oct 18, 2013)

Aa: 0.59
Ab: 0.61
E: 0.81
F: 1.15
Ga: 0.84
Gb: 0.94
Gc: 1.06
Gd: 0.86
H: 0.72
Ja: 0.71
Jb: 0.63
Na: 0.96
Nb: 0.96
Ra: 0.90
Rb: 0.86
T: 0.81
Ua: 0.78
Ub: 0.59
V: 0.96
Y: 0.97
Z: 0.83

Total: 17.54 seconds
Mean: 0.835 seconds
Age: 15


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## Daniel Wu (Oct 18, 2013)

Spoiler



Aa: 1.54
Ab: 1.26
E: 1.83
F: 2.21
Ga: 1.70
Gb: 1.95
Gc: 1.98
Gd: 1.77
H: 1.20
Ja: 1.28
Jb: 1.47
Na: 2.06
Nb: 2.32
Ra: 1.82
Rb: 1.76
T: 1.47
Ua: 1.06
Ub: 1.11
V: 1.98
Y: 1.66
Z: 1.55



Total: 35.07
Mean: 1.67
Age: 19

% of solve time: 14% (=1.67/12)

... Wow I really thought I was better at PLL than this.


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## KongShou (Oct 18, 2013)

ben1996123 said:


> sub1 yperm wideo pls



why does people doubt everything i say, ill do it tomorrow, along with ones that i can sub 1
sub 1 y perm isnt even impressive


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## Selkie (Oct 18, 2013)

Schmidt said:


> It is so time consuming! I just did the 100 move challenge (R U R' U') in 8.88 = ~11 TPS. Age 41
> you should count the moves to get a avg. TPS as well.
> and you should be glad to be "stuck" at 17 instead of at 22.



Very good point on the move count per alg. There are quite a few cases where I know multiple PLLs, such as Na. I know 4 algs for this case but the 21 mover is the one for my best Na time here and certainly the best TPS for an alg. Rotations kill my times which rules out URD N Perms and D is always a bit of a sticking (locking) point. I guess RUF algs are where I can sustain best TPS even if that means a higher move count for a case.

Don't get me wrong I am very glad to be where I am, but I want to improve and feel improvement is well within my ability. The understandable removal of the age statistics from the WCA leads us to find other ways to motivate the grey haired cubers. I just believe I blame more than it is a factor.

Great to hear a reply from another sup-40 solver though. Always good to justify other people who refused to give up what was a complete playground addiction in the early 80's :tu


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## uberCuber (Oct 18, 2013)

KongShou said:


> sub 1 y perm isnt even impressive



I find all sub-1 PLLs impressive because I can only sub-1 like 3 of them >_>


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## sneaklyfox (Oct 18, 2013)

From fastest to slowest...

Aa: 0.88
Ab: 0.89
Ub: 0.96
H: 0.99
Ua: 1.10
T: 1.15
E: 1.24
Jb: 1.24
Na: 1.31
Z: 1.32
Ja: 1.40
Gb: 1.40
Ra: 1.40
V: 1.42
Gc: 1.45
Y: 1.46
Ga: 1.50
F: 1.52
Gd: 1.53
Rb: 1.54
Nb: 1.69

Total: 27.39
Mean: 1.30
Age: 32


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## scottishcuber (Oct 18, 2013)

KongShou said:


> why does people doubt everything i say, ill do it tomorrow, along with ones that i can sub 1
> *sub 1 y perm isnt even impressive*



Yes it is...kinda. 

I think he just wants to see a fast alg performed well. I do, however, have some doubts that you can do it, simply because you don't seem to turn very fast in your solves. I'd love to be proved wrong though


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## Mike Hughey (Oct 18, 2013)

I feel so incompetent. For me, sub-2 PLLs are impressive.

Ua = 2.05, Ub = 2.06, Z = 2.53, H = 2.49, Aa = 1.96, Ab = 2.03, E = 2.92, F = 3.06, Ga = 2.90, Gb = 2.87, Gc = 2.83, Gd = 2.93, Ja = 2.31, Jb = 2.18, Na = 3.85, Nb = 3.37, Ra = 2.83, Rb = 2.64, T = 2.44, V = 3.22, Y = 3.43

Total: 54.90
Mean: 2.61
Age: 51
Typical average: 21 seconds

The good news is that I finally got a sub-20 average in competition last weekend - my first ever. I am still improving - improving very slowly, but improving.


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## kcl (Oct 18, 2013)

All mine are sub 2 for sure, everything but the evil N perms is sub 1.3. I'd say like half to 3/4 are sub 1.

I'm 14.


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## antoineccantin (Oct 18, 2013)

kclejeune said:


> All mine are sub 2 for sure, everything but the evil N perms is sub 1.3. I'd say like half to 3/4 are sub 1.



Just noticed your last name. Pretty awesome


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## kcl (Oct 18, 2013)

antoineccantin said:


> Just noticed your last name. Pretty awesome



Haha thank you


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## antoineccantin (Oct 18, 2013)

kclejeune said:


> Haha thank you



Not as bad as someone I know who's last name is "Legros" though. The funny part is that everyone in his family are huge.


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## KongShou (Oct 18, 2013)

scottishcuber said:


> Yes it is...kinda.
> 
> I think he just wants to see a fast alg performed well. I do, however, have some doubts that you can do it, simply because you don't seem to turn very fast in your solves. I'd love to be proved wrong though



ok i only managed 1.05(or it might have been 1.09)
but i seem to remember that y perm is one of the fast ones? i dunno, i seem to be wrong in many things 

i can turn faster, but then that mean no look ahead and rubbish times, im starting to turn faster without pauses tho, improvement yay

edit:also i guess im supa dupa slow by ur standard lol

and i just did a set of solves where my only goal is to spam tps, theyre mostly 11s and 12s omg. ive been averaging 13 lately. i might start spamming tps now, there dont seem to be big pauses like before.


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## kcl (Oct 18, 2013)

antoineccantin said:


> Not as bad as someone I know who's last name is "Legros" though. The funny part is that everyone in his family are huge.



Hahaha that's hilarious XD.. I'm like 3/4(?) French, but I have no idea how they turned 'The Young' into a last name


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## Selkie (Oct 18, 2013)

Mike Hughey said:


> The good news is that I finally got a sub-20 average in competition last weekend - my first ever. I am still improving - improving very slowly, but improving.



That is great news Mike, truly pleased to hear it. Having tracked your progress in sub 20 forum race from over 2 years ago its great to see you have attained what at times were dismissed as improbable. Great achievement,

As for feeling incompetent, I would turn this completely around and state that if your PLLs are that average for an official average of <20s then my other stages are lacking for my PLL average for <18


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## sneaklyfox (Oct 18, 2013)

antoineccantin said:


> Not as bad as someone I know who's last name is "Legros" though. The funny part is that everyone in his family are huge.


At least the name fits. Imagine how much teasing they'd get if they were huge yet named "Lepetit".



kclejeune said:


> Hahaha that's hilarious XD.. I'm like 3/4(?) French, but I have no idea how they turned 'The Young' into a last name


You have to change your name when you get "old".


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## uberCuber (Oct 18, 2013)

KongShou said:


> but i seem to remember that y perm is one of the fast ones? i dunno, i seem to be wrong in many things



Well, 17 moves is a lot


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## kcl (Oct 18, 2013)

sneaklyfox said:


> At least the name fits. Imagine how much teasing they'd get if they were huge yet named "Lepetit".
> 
> 
> You have to change your name when you get "old".



Hahaha


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## antoineccantin (Oct 18, 2013)

kclejeune said:


> Hahaha that's hilarious XD.. I'm like 3/4(?) French, but I have no idea how they turned 'The Young' into a last name



Well Young is a fairly common English last name.


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## kcl (Oct 18, 2013)

antoineccantin said:


> Well Young is a fairly common English last name.



Wat? I can only think of one Young and he lives in a city of winged nocturnal creatures


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## sneaklyfox (Oct 19, 2013)

I know a Young and it's his first name. Actually his full name is "Young Fan". Sorry, so off topic...


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## antoineccantin (Oct 19, 2013)

kclejeune said:


> Wat? I can only think of one Young and he lives in a city of winged nocturnal creatures



Well, I can think of a few, and there are many in the WCA.
https://www.worldcubeassociation.or...ventId=&regionId=&pattern=young&search=Search


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## kcl (Oct 19, 2013)

antoineccantin said:


> Well, I can think of a few, and there are many in the WCA.
> https://www.worldcubeassociation.or...ventId=&regionId=&pattern=young&search=Search



Wow, that's actually a lot :O. Anyway, back on topic 

I think the older people get past their teen years, the slower their limbs/fingers can move, thus why older people here have slower PLL times.


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## Zarxrax (Oct 19, 2013)

I only did a handful, I didn't feel like doing them all. I haven't drilled PLLs by themselves for a while, and I found myself forgetting how to do a lot of them if the cube wasn't set up with the case.
My solves average around 25 seconds. 
Age: 31
Average of 12
A: 2.99
E: 3.80
U: 1.99
H: 2.19
T: 2.63
R: 2.74

I've always had a slow turn speed for some reason. This was literally as fast as I could go. I really feel like my turning is what keeps me from getting sub 20.
Granted, I haven't really been practicing much during the last 2 years though, except a couple days a week.


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## KongShou (Oct 19, 2013)

kclejeune said:


> Wat? I can only think of one Young and he lives in a city of winged nocturnal creatures



Ashley young


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## cyoubx (Oct 19, 2013)

uberCuber said:


> I find all sub-1 PLLs impressive because I can only sub-1 like 3 of them >_>



That's like three more than me XD


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## BoBoGuy (Oct 19, 2013)

100 moves challenge in 7.59 sec. =13.17 tps
age 12


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## Selkie (Oct 19, 2013)

Three more than me too.

I am impressed with some of the sup 30 solvers PLL times, Especially Sneaky Fox, so many sub 1s where I cannot muster one.

I don't think turnspeed is such a great consideration with age as I have maybe thought over the last few years. Maybe reaction times, maybe confidence, we just cant just blame it solely on arthritis


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## Mike Hughey (Oct 19, 2013)

People suggest that age might result in slower fingers, but I actually find that hard to believe. I'm a keyboardist (piano/organ/electronic keyboards), and I'm known for being very fast-fingered. I don't think I'm any slower playing now than I was when I was 20 - if anything, I'm faster. But maybe it's the ability to learn new fast moves with fingers that goes down as you get older? So I'll always be fast playing keyboard instruments because I learned to be fast when I was young, but I can't duplicate it on cubing because I learned the moves too late? (If only I had known about fingertricks - and had something other than a Rubik's - when I first learned to solve a cube at age 18!) Since Ron van Bruchem learned to be fast at a somewhat younger age, perhaps that's why he's so much faster than me? And perhaps that means he'll always be fast, because he learned early enough?

I still suspect I could get fast if I REALLY worked at it. But I admit I find it more fun to really work at BLD instead - I get results more quickly with BLD when I work on it than I do with speed.


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## sneaklyfox (Oct 19, 2013)

I think age does affect speed, both mental and physical but I think that it's not that noticeable until much later and it also depends on the individual, whether they have been keeping their brain/fingers sharp. I think the mental speed is affected first (for me anyway). I feel slow in the head compared to when I was in my teens though obviously I would be a little slower now with my sleep deprivation. Not sure about what Mike said about learning cubing later in life. I started speedcubing after my 30th birthday so, not that young anymore. But then again, I still consider myself "young". Just relatively "old" in this community.


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## tx789 (Oct 19, 2013)

I have sub 1ed the U perms T, Aa and Jb (u were Sub .9) and have sub 2ed all PLL's most sub 1.5 those that aren't have n perms and V and some G perms if not all. I am 16.


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## kcl (Oct 19, 2013)

No way.. Your H perm and R perms are fast!

Ok so because I don't know the a b names I'm doing this.
C=clockwise, cc= counter clockwise, R= Right, L=left

A(C) .94
A(CC) .94
E ..95
F 1.04
G perms are all about 1.5
H .8
J(R) .91
J(L) .98
Na 1.5
Nb 1.7
R(R) .96
R(L) .98
T .87
U(C).75
U(CC) .94
V .95
Y 1.07
Z 1.19

Edit: Tried some of them again now that I have more time.


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## Tim Major (Oct 19, 2013)

I have video of me sub 1ing Z-perm, I could get 0.6 or so for H-perm, 0.9ish for Z-perm. I can't sub one either, nor U-perms anymore. I'm only a couple of years older than I was, but I've injured my fingers a lot playing sports and other random cuts/bruises. I also have much larger hands than 2 years ago so that might affect it (I haven't met anyone with bigger hands as far as I know).


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## cubecraze1 (Oct 19, 2013)

A little better than what I expected to be honest.



Spoiler



Aa: 1.02
Ab: 1.15
E: 1.69
F: 1.69 (lol)
Ga: 1.46
Gb: 1.53
Gc: 1.46
Gd: 1.46
H: 0.91
Ja: 1.38
Jb: 1.02
Na: 1.40
Nb: 1.97
Ra: 1.52
Rb: 1.43
T: 1.11
Ua: 0.93
Ub: 0.94
V: 1.72
Y: 1.52
Z: 1.55



Total Time: ~28.77
Mean: 1.37
Age: 13


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## Bunyanderman (Oct 19, 2013)

Aa: .85
Ab: .83
E: 1.57
F: 1.28
Ga: 1.14
Gb: 1.24
Gc: 1.33
Gd: 1.26
H: .87
Ja: .79
Jb: .90
Na: 1.57
Nb: 1.63
Ra: 1.60
Rb: 1.13
T: .87
Ua: .76
Ub: .87
V: 1.42
Y: 1.28
Z: 1.09
Age 15


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## TDM (Oct 19, 2013)

Most times are best of 6 attempts, unless I felt I could get a better execution.
Aa: 2.29
Ab: 1.86
E: 2.56
F: 2.22
Ga (2-look: Rb+H): 4.01
Gb (2-look: J+Ua): 3.19
Gc (2-look: J+Z): 3.53
Gd (2-look: J+H): 3.63
H: 1.41
J: 1.18
L: 1.60
Na: 2.19
Nb: 2.02
Ra: 1.54
Rb: 1.62
T: 1.18
Ua: 1.14
Ub: 1.05
V: 2.69
Y: 1.77
Z: 1.53
Mean: 2.11
Fastest: 1.05 (Ub)
Slowest: 4.01 (Ga)
Average: 2.02
Age 15.
I'm averaging sub-19 but can't even sub-4 all PLLs 

EDIT: I've found some better algs and practised the one I'd just learned more:
Ga: 2.53
Gb: 2.18
Gc: 2.31
Gd: 2.17
V: 2.22

lol my V perm is now faster than one of my A perms

New mean: 1.84
New slowest: 2.56 (E)
New average: 1.84


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## mark49152 (Oct 19, 2013)

All 21 PLLs in 70 seconds, 4tps. Age 46. I wouldnt consider that meaningful if it wasn't for the fact that I drill PLLs a lot, and have been at that speed for several months. So a genuine plateau.

I've never timed them individually but I guess the results would be slightly faster without transitions etc.


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## scottishcuber (Oct 19, 2013)

Aa: 0.57
Ab: 0.60
E: 0.78
H: 0.76
Z: 0.83
L: 0.74
T: 0.77
J: 0.58
F: 1.02 wut
Gb: 0.95
Gd: 0.96
V: 0.97
Ub: 0.72
Ua: 0.74
Ga: 0.92
Rb: 0.92
Nb: 1.14
Na: 0.96
Gc: 1.1
Ra: 0.94
Y: 0.94 
Sum: 17.91s
Mean: 0.85s 

all sub-1 except F, Gc and Nb. Pretty good. I'm 19


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## Lid (Oct 19, 2013)

EP: Ua = 1.60, Ub = 1.59, Z = 2.16, H = 1.79
CP: Aa = 1.67, Ab = 1.70, E = 2.19
2+2: F = 2.36, Ja = 1.62, Jb = 1.40, Ra = 2.32, Rb = 1.95, T = 1.53
Gs: Ga = 2.35, Gb = 2.22, Gc = 2.33, Gd = 2.27
Diag: Na = 2.99, Nb = 2.75, V = 1.95, Y = 2.22

Total: 42.96, Mean: 2.05, Age 41, Average around 18-19.



Mike Hughey said:


> The good news is that I finally got a sub-20 average in competition last weekend - my first ever. I am still improving - improving very slowly, but improving.


I actually noticed that & I know how long you've been trying to get it :tu
I got my first sub 20 avg last comp also.


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## KongShou (Oct 19, 2013)

scottishcuber said:


> Aa: 0.57
> Ab: 0.60
> E: 0.78
> H: 0.76
> ...



now this is impressive, i see why u think im supa slow


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## rowehessler (Oct 19, 2013)

As: .68 and .70
Us: .75 .80
z: .90
H: .80
Js: .73, .90
Rs: .96, .86
Gs: .98, .98, .96, .94
Y: .92
T: .74
V: .96
F: .98
Ns: 1.2, 1.3

age 22


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## sneaklyfox (Oct 19, 2013)

Looks like Nb is worst for many people.


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## kcl (Oct 19, 2013)

sneaklyfox said:


> Looks like Nb is worst for many people.



I can see why.. The thing is evil.


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## ianliu64 (Oct 20, 2013)

Basically everything is sub 2 for me.
Age: 11
Avg: 17 sec.


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## You Cube (Oct 25, 2013)

cuboy63 said:


> Aa: 0.59
> Ab: 0.61
> E: 0.81
> F: 1.15
> ...


How much have you been cubing?(Since when)


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## TDM (Oct 25, 2013)

TDM said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Improvement:

Aa: 2.29 -> *1.31*
Ab: 1.86 -> *0.99*
E: 2.56 -> *1.88*
F: 2.22 -> *1.74*
Gc: 2.31 -> *1.98*
Gd: 2.17 -> *1.98*
H: 1.41 -> *1.30*
J: 1.18 -> 1.18
L: 1.60 -> *1.33*
Na: 2.19 -> *2.17*
Nb: 2.02 -> 2.02
Ra: 1.54 -> 1.54
Rb: 1.62 -> 1.62
T: 1.18 -> 1.18
Ua: 1.14 -> *0.89*
Ub: 1.05 -> 1.05
V: 2.22 -> *1.91*
Y: 1.77 -> 1.77
Z: 1.53 -> *1.09*
I can't do Ga or Gb (I forgot them) but I did some practise of them a few days ago, and got:
Ga: 2.53 -> *2.14*
Gb: 2.18 -> *1.95*

Mean: 1.62
Fastest: 0.89 (Ua)
Slowest: 2.17 (Na)
Average: 1.61


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## Petro Leum (Oct 25, 2013)

age:18
avergae PLL speed (onehanded) 1.3-1.4 seconds
onehanded: around 2.7 seconds

btu really, juist depends on practise


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## TDM (Mar 1, 2014)

TDM said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Improvements in *bold*. (improvement from first post, improvement from previous post)
Age hasn't changed (15).

Aa: 2.29 -> 1.31 -> *1.19* (-1.10, -0.12)
Ab: 1.86 -> 0.99 -> 0.99 (-0.87, 0)
E: 2.56 -> 1.88 -> *1.50* (-1.06, -0.38)
F: 2.22 -> 1.74 -> *1.72* (-0.50, -0.02)
Ga: 2.53 -> 2.14 -> *1.89* (-0.64, -0.25)
Gb: 2.18 -> 1.95 -> *1.59* (-0.59, -0.36)
Gc: 2.31 -> 1.98 -> *1.54* (-0.77, -0.44)
Gd: 2.17 -> 1.98 -> *1.73* (-0.44, -0.25)
H: 1.41 -> 1.30 -> *1.08* (-0.33, -0.22)
J: 1.18 -> 1.18 -> *1.04* (-0.14, -0.14)
L: 1.60 -> 1.33 -> *1.06* (-0.54, -0.27)
Na: 2.19 -> 2.17 -> *1.83* (-0.36, -0.34)
Nb: 2.02 -> 2.02 -> *1.81* (-0.21, -0.21)
Ra: 1.54 -> 1.54 -> *1.51* (-0.03, -0.03)
Rb: 1.62 -> 1.62 -> *1.48* (-0.14, -0.14)
T: 1.18 -> 1.18 -> 1.18 (0,0)
Ua: 1.14 -> 0.89 -> 0.89 (-0.25, 0)
Ub: 1.05 -> 1.05 -> *0.94* (-0.11, -0.11)
V: 2.22 -> 1.91 -> *1.81* (-0.41, -0.10)
Y: 1.77 -> 1.77 -> *1.61* (-0.16, -0.16)
Z: 1.53 -> 1.09 -> 1.09 (-0.44, 0)

Fastest: Ua (0.89)
Slowest: Na (1.83)

No change in fastest/slowest.


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