# Dvorak Switching Discussion



## edd5190 (Aug 1, 2007)

If you have switched to Dvorak, (and apparently listen to everything Macky says) how long did it take for you to get as fast as you were with QWERTY?

8-22-2007, 6 weeks of Dvorak:
Dvorak: 73 wpm
LH Dvorak: 19 wpm


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## pjk (Aug 1, 2007)

I looked at that. I think if I would have started with Dvorak when I started typing 7 years ago, I would have stuck with it. But why switch now? It is like you get used to Dvorak now, then when you go to the public library you have to go back to Qwerty. That would be awesome if you could type around 80-90WPM with both. There's a challenge for you.


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## edd5190 (Aug 1, 2007)

I'll try It shouldn't be nearly as hard as averaging sub-18. The only problem is that with QWERTY I only typed at 40 WPM (same speed as I am with Dvorak.


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## ExoCorsair (Aug 1, 2007)

I once tried for a week and maxed at like 20 WPM... I could type faster one-fingered QWERTY. >.>

Power to you for sticking with Dvorak!


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## edd5190 (Aug 1, 2007)

Thanks I don't know why Dvorak isn't universal.


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## CorwinShiu (Aug 1, 2007)

hehe i switched too. I just like being an odd ball =) 

but i guess i can type 40-50 wpm, but i have to look down. i was typing at 80 wpm qwerty though. My mavis beacon doesn't support dvorak, so i've just been gaining speed by typing online.

I have to say, i've been making much less errors on dvorak...


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## Erik (Aug 1, 2007)

Dvorak is quite fun to practise when you've got nothing to do 
Watermelon (Mitchell Stern) and me both practise it for a while now.


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## gillesvdp (Aug 2, 2007)

I have heard from...Erik  that the Dvorak is some sort of "optimal" keyboard".
But for which language is it optimal ?

Because the letters used in English and in Franch for example are much different.

(For example, the W is worth 10 points in the French scrabble whereas it is just a 1 point letter in the English version.)


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## Johannes91 (Aug 2, 2007)

edd5190 said:


> I don't know why Dvorak isn't universal.


English isn't the only language out there, just as Gilles pointed out. I don't see any reason to switch, qwerty is fine. Actually, I'd like to have a keyboard optimized for Perl and C...


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## Erik (Aug 2, 2007)

The Dvorak I learned was optimal for English, but it was almost optimal for Dutch too. I think that there is made a lot of different Dvorak settings for each different languagae and purpose.


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## AvGalen (Aug 2, 2007)

Some links: http://www.websters-online-dictionary.org/definition/QWERTY and http://wwwpub.utdallas.edu/~liebowit/keys1.html

Summarized for current computerkeyboards: Qwerty is very good "by accident", Dvorak is good by design.


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## edd5190 (Aug 2, 2007)

Johannes91 said:


> English isn't the only language out there, just as Gilles pointed out. I don't see any reason to switch, qwerty is fine. Actually, I'd like to have a keyboard optimized for Perl and C...



I'm sorry, I meant in the US. I think there are "Dvorak-ish" keyboards for different languages as well.


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## pjk (Aug 2, 2007)

My question for you guys is, why switch? I don't think it is going to make a big difference. Of course, if you want to be unique, that is your choice.


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## edd5190 (Aug 2, 2007)

Johannes91 said:


> Actually, I'd like to have a keyboard optimized for Perl and C...



I've heard of "Programmer Dvorak", but I don't really know much about it. Maybe you could look more into it.


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## Erik (Aug 2, 2007)

pjk said:


> My question for you guys is, why switch? I don't think it is going to make a big difference. Of course, if you want to be unique, that is your choice.



Personally I only practise it for fun, and it might be fast on my own computer later on since I type quite a lot


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## KJiptner (Aug 2, 2007)

Come on guys. Macky is making a joke on his website and you really consider swiching to dvorak because of that?


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## dougreed (Aug 8, 2007)

Oh wow. I can't believe I missed this thread 

I have been using Dvorak for more than a few years now. It has _clear_ advantages over Qwerty. I don't think it's correct to claim that Qwerty is "good by accident" -- actually, it's quite bad, whether by accident or by design 

FWIW, I program in C/C++ daily. I use vim extensively. I'm also no stranger to regexes. Dvorak hasn't hindered me in any of these areas except for Vim, which I fixed with a pretty lavish .vimrc (which anyone can have if they're interested in it).

I would encourage everyone here that is interested in Dvorak to give it a shot. I've converted lots of people at UT already. It's definitely worth it, and it's really never too late. The hassle of switching to QWERTY when you go to the library isn't really that much of a hassle... I can still sustain 70-80wpm in QWERTY once I get back into the zone, and I can sustain over 110wpm in Dvorak comfortably.

Doug


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## edd5190 (Aug 11, 2007)

Lol, after about a month I'm averaging 50 wpm with Dvorak, faster than I ever got with QWERTY, and I've been using QWERTY for the past 5+ years So, yes, it is never too late to switch. Also, I've been experimenting with Left Hand Dvorak, designed by August Dvorak himself, at the request of a soldier who lost his right hand in world war 2. After several months, he averaged 50+ wpm with one hand. But, after maybe a week I'm only at 13 wpm, but I'm getting better everyday. I'll edit my first post whenever I improve my speed with Dvorak and Left hand Dvorak.


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## dougreed (Aug 11, 2007)

I've given a bit of thought to learning left-handed dvorak just so I can keep my right hand on my mouse... then I realized I do so much in screen anyway that not keeping both hands on the keyboard actually hinders my ability to navigate 

Doug


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## edd5190 (Aug 11, 2007)

Ah OK. But, I will continue typing with LH Dvorak for fun, and to impress my boss when I apply for a job that requires lots of typing


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## fw (Aug 11, 2007)

pjk said:


> why switch?



Because its much more friendly to the hands.. I got a friend who types very much and who had serious hand injuries from that (stuff like CTS).. He uses dvorak for about 3 years now and he is BY FAR the fastest typer I know and he never complained about any injuries or hand pain again...

By the way, there are native dvorak keyboards.. which means your operating system does not even have to know about it.. So if your library is cool with it, you could just buy one of those keyboards and take it with you )


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## hait2 (Aug 11, 2007)

dougreed said:


> Oh wow. I can't believe I missed this thread
> 
> I have been using Dvorak for more than a few years now. It has _clear_ advantages over Qwerty. I don't think it's correct to claim that Qwerty is "good by accident" -- actually, it's quite bad, whether by accident or by design



i have heard that it is indeed bad by design  it was designed such that common pairs of letters were not near each other as the typewriters of the era could jam if 2+ "hammers" that were nearby were pressed in quick succession

regardless, i'm not going to bother switching to dvorak. i type fast enough on qwerty with a very low error rate (if there's a typing test somewhere, hook me up, i'll try it out). i'd estimate i'm 130-140ish wpm so why bother switching? dvorak is a pain anyway since it's pretty much nowhere to be found in public places ;x


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## dougreed (Aug 15, 2007)

hait2 said:


> i type fast enough on qwerty with a very low error rate (if there's a typing test somewhere, hook me up, i'll try it out). i'd estimate i'm 130-140ish wpm so why bother switching? dvorak is a pain anyway since it's pretty much nowhere to be found in public places ;x



You would probably easily match (if not surpass) your qwerty speed and error rate with Dvorak if you were to put time into switching. I'm about 15 wpm faster with Dvorak than I ever was with qwerty (110wpm vs 95wpm) with fewer errors. 

If anything, I would suggest switching because of personal comfort. You won't forget how to type in qwerty if you do make the switch, you're just likely to detest having to use it


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## edd5190 (Aug 15, 2007)

dougreed said:


> You won't forget how to type in qwerty if you do make the switch, you're just likely to detest having to use it



Haha yeah... the only problem is that I'll have to convince my computer teacher to let me use Dvorak instead of QWERTY. Should I like write a book to convince him or something? Any ideas will be appreciated


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## ExoCorsair (Aug 15, 2007)

Just show him how much more quickly you can type in dvorak...


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## edd5190 (Aug 15, 2007)

OK thanks I still don't know who my computer teacher will be... Hopefully it won't be Mr. Lancaster... When we were learning to touch type he kept telling me "No Justin, look at the diagram! You have to press the spacebar with your right thumb, even if you're left handed!" haha let's hope it's not him


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## dougreed (Aug 16, 2007)

try this:

www.dvzine.org

It's full of pro-dv propaganda that you may find useful.

Doug


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## hait2 (Aug 17, 2007)

hmm actually, you know what. I will try it before school starts again.hopefully I can get a decent speed within the 3-4 weeks that I have left

just for archive purposes, I found a typing test on typingtest.com (who would've thought) and ran through the magical typewriter test of 1 minute (name seemed appropriate)

So currently, with qwerty, my WPM is 135 with 94% accuracy (i blame the strange hyphen for my mistakes <3). I don't know what gross wpm is, so I ignored it.

I am actually typing this new paragraph..(nevermind I stopped.. was typing with DVORAK, was taking forever)

w/e I'll report back in a few weeks and tell how it's going. 

for now.. the final alt+shift to get rid of qwerty! :O

',.pyf
aaah, that's better...

edit: and yea, i am going cold turkey...
very painful so far... ><
i am typing at like 10 wpm or something stupid


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## dougreed (Aug 17, 2007)

Just don't give up on it and you'll catch on soon enough... a buddy of mine switched cold turkey the weekend he had to write an english paper and do an assignment for his Perl class. He is one of my more recent converts...

',.pyf indeed!

Doug


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## joey (Aug 17, 2007)

Johannes91 said:


> English isn't the only language out there, just as Gilles pointed out. I don't see any reason to switch, qwerty is fine. Actually, I'd like to have a keyboard optimized for Perl and C...



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dvorak_Simplified_Keyboard 

Scroll down to Programmers Dvoark


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## hait2 (Aug 18, 2007)

so much pain...
thing i miss most are the hotkeys TT;;
I still am typing very slow although it's completely by touch now, but I have to remember where the keys are..


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## dougreed (Aug 22, 2007)

Does anyone here know of a good keyboard where all of the alpha keys are the same size and shape? I just got an Avant Stellar keyboard (which is amazing) but even on this the keys seem to be slightly different sizes, which makes rearranging the keys impractical.

Doug


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## ExoCorsair (Aug 22, 2007)

I use a Dynex USB keyboard which I got from Best Buy for $20. All the alpha-numerical keys are the same, I think. If there's a difference, it's not noticeable.


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## hait2 (Aug 22, 2007)

I'm finding it really hard to not switch to qwerty at times..
I've never realized how much I type in a day when I have to type so freaking slowly. I've even started to switch to qwerty on occasions when I have to get something done quickly at work (this post I'm typing with qwerty actually. .shame on me)

this is starting to seem like a waste of time.. now others can't hotdesk on my PC at work because windows is made for retarded people (you can only switch the kboard layout for active window.. what is that?!?). Although I fixed that problem now with an autohotkey script I wrote.. now I can just toggle dvorak on/off with scroll lock for entire windows session

Still..
I'll keep trying, but my progress will be much slower because I am not going cold-turkey anymore (I simply don't have the time @ work.. and @ home i play games which are made for qwerty (wasd, etc.)

w/e. My goal has diminished to 80wpm by start of school. I'm not optimistic that I'll achieve that (which in itself is a pretty slow speed that i probably couldn't stand writing a paper with)


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## dougreed (Aug 23, 2007)

ExoCorsair said:


> I use a Dynex USB keyboard which I got from Best Buy for $20. All the alpha-numerical keys are the same, I think. If there's a difference, it's not noticeable.



Are you saying that you don't notice the difference in key height with or without having switched the keys to dvorak? I ask because even small differences in height/shape are noticeable when you have differently sized keys randomly dispersed around the keyboard.

Doug


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## ExoCorsair (Aug 23, 2007)

Without. Slight variations in height may be from wear, variations in size, there are none. If I ever switch to Dvorak I'll pop the keys and try it, but I doubt that'll happen anytime soon.

Of course, there's always the Optimus Maximus...


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## CorwinShiu (Aug 23, 2007)

dougreed said:


> Are you saying that you don't notice the difference in key height with or without having switched the keys to dvorak? I ask because even small differences in height/shape are noticeable when you have differently sized keys randomly dispersed around the keyboard.
> 
> Doug



When you are typing, it's best to learn without looking at the keyboard. I would print out the layout, and tape it to the table *underneath* your keyboard. That way, if you forget, you can always look at it.


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## dougreed (Aug 23, 2007)

CorwinShiu said:


> When you are typing, it's best to learn without looking at the keyboard. I would print out the layout, and tape it to the table *underneath* your keyboard. That way, if you forget, you can always look at it.



I agree completely. I've been using dvorak exclusively for three or four years, and I've never had a keyboard with the keys arranged to any keymap other than qwerty. I actually learned by printing out the keymap and keeping it right beneath the keyboard. 

For practice, I'd open up large text files in Vi, go into 'replace' mode, and try to type over the words without making mistakes... it worked well and was much more interesting than the popular ABCD course.

Still, it would be kind of neat to have a dvorak keyboard...

Doug


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