# SuneOLL



## Kirjava (Aug 13, 2010)

This post was crafted by Robert Yau and Kirjava in Google Docs.

17:25:19 < Robert> I just finished discovering that...
17:26:09 < Robert> 48/57 OLLs can be done using (sune variant), (U, U' , U2 or no move), (sune variant)
17:31:24 <+Kirjava> that's good
17:31:32 <+Kirjava> it means you can easily do the OLLCP subset where CP is already done
17:31:37 <+DanCohen> Holy **** sub-55 on 5x5x5 and on video!

Turns out, you can solve every case with Sune variations and some extra moves for alignment.

A lot of these algorithms are useful for OH. You may find that some of them are even better than your normal 2H OLL algorithms for OH!

Because of the notation used to describe these algorithms, there are cancellations that are undocumented. However, I doubt many of you will have trouble cancelling two sunes.

For each case, only one solution is documented - better ones may exist. Feel free to post them.

The notation describing the particular variation of Sune being used is as follows;

R = Right
L = Left
F = Front
B = Back
W = Wide
A = Anti
S = Sune

For example, RFS would be a regular Sune (RUR’URU2R’) while RBWAS would be the Right Back Wide AntiSune (r’U2RUR’Ur).

All edges flipped correctly

27 - (RFS)
26 - (RFAS)
21 - (RFAS)*2
22 - (RFS) U’ (RFS)
23 - (RBS) (RFS)
24 - (RFAS) U (RFS)
25 - (RFS) U (RBS)

No edges flipped correctly

1 - (RFWS) U’ (RBWAS)
2 - (RWS) U (RWS)
3 - (RWAS) U (RBWS)
4 - (RBWAS) U’ (RFWS)
20 - (RFWAS) M (RFS) U M’
17 - (RFWS) (LBWAS)
18 - (RFWS) (RBWS)
19 - (RBWAS) (RFWAS)

“P” shapes

31 - (RFAS) U (RFWS)
32 - (RBAS) U’ (RBWS)
43 - (RBWS) U’ (RBWAS)
44 - (RFWS) U (RFWAS)

“W” shapes

36 - (RFWS) U (RBWS)
37 - (RFWAS) U2 (RFS)

“L” shapes

47 - (RBWS) U (RBS)
48 - (RFWS) U’ (RFS)
53 - (RBWAS)*2
54 - (RFWAS)*2
49 - (RBS) (RFWAS)
50 - (RFS) (RBWAS)

“C” shapes

34 - (RBS) M’ (LBS) U M
46 - (RFS) M’ (RBS) U’ M

“T” shapes

33 - (RBS) (LBWS)
45 - (RFS) (RBWS)

“I” shapes

55 - (RFAS) U’ (RBWS)
56 - (RFAS) U’ M’ (RBS) U’ M
51 - (RFS) U’ (RFWS)
52 - (RFAS) U’ (RFWAS)

Square shapes

5 - (RBWAS)
6 - (RFWAS)

Big lightning

39 - (RFAS) (LBWS)
40 - (RBAS) (LFWS)

Small lightning

7 - (RFWS)
8 - (RBWS)
11 - M (RFS) U M’
12 - M’ (RBS) U’ M

Fish shapes

9 - M (RFAS) U’ M’
10 - M’ (RBAS) U M
35 - (RFAS)*2 (RBWAS)
37 - (RFWS) U (RBS)

Knight shapes

13 - (RBS)*2 (LBWAS)
14 - (RFS)*2 (LFWAS)
15 - (RBS) U’ (RFWAS)
16 - (RFS) U (RBWAS)

Awkward shapes

29 - (RFWS) U’ (RFAS)
30 - (RFS) U’ (RFWAS)
41 - (RFWAS) U’ (RFS)
42 - (RBWAS) U (RBS)

All corners oriented

28 - (RFWS) (RFAS)
57 - (RFAS) (RFWS)


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## JeffDelucia (Aug 13, 2010)

holy sune!


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## TrollingHard (Aug 13, 2010)

Wow, amazing.


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## Rook (Aug 13, 2010)

Awesome 

The notation is a bit hard to get used to, but I'll definitely be trying most of these out. I might finally be able to complete OLL, or at least come close.


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## splinteh (Aug 13, 2010)

You should have made this thread suner.


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## Gavin (Aug 13, 2010)

Kirjava said:


> 17:25:19 < Robert> I just finished discovering that...
> 17:26:09 < Robert> 48/57 OLLs can be done using (sune variant), (U, U' , U2 or no move), (sune variant)
> 17:31:24 <+Kirjava> that's good
> 17:31:32 <+Kirjava> it means you can easily do the OLLCP subset where CP is already done
> 17:31:37 <+DanCohen> Holy **** sub-55 on 5x5x5 and on video!


I believe I read those top 4 lines in IRC... How did I miss that last one? xD

Anyway, thats an awesome find. I just need to figure out the notation.


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## JeffDelucia (Aug 13, 2010)

Does every single one leave corner permutation?


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## Kirjava (Aug 13, 2010)

JeffDelucia said:


> Does every single one leave corner permutation?




Of course, they're all based on Sune.

Actually, you can replace each Sune with a Niklas if you want to squeeze more OLLCP out of this thing.


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## whauk (Aug 13, 2010)

oh thanks thats amazing. i will learn many of them for OH.
is there always only one possibility or can there be more variants? (with the same amount of sunes)


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## JeffDelucia (Aug 13, 2010)

This looks really cool especially for OLLCP. Only problem I have with it is the memorization. Sure the algs can be memo-ed super quick but I can see a lot of confusing cases with each other. I suppose if you really commit the first half to memo you would be able to see the second but you would lose some fluidity.


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## qqwref (Aug 13, 2010)

Holy ****. You should teach OLL this way. (Like, not to people learning OLL+CP, but as a thing itself.)


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## FatBoyXPC (Aug 13, 2010)

qqwref: I don't know if I'd want to learn full OLL this way (2H), due to the fact most of the OLL's I use are insanely quick, quicker than two sunes. However, I do have a couple awkward shapes that use Sune (variant) + F Sexy move F'. I just think that some of the current real fast OLLs are more beneficial. Although this could provide for some excellent look ahead into PLL.


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## amostay2004 (Aug 13, 2010)

I don't think this should be taken any more seriously than 2 look OLL, but it's fun to learn. And PLL prediction's easier on 2 look OLL since CP can easily be predicted on all-edges oriented OLLs.


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## Anthony (Aug 13, 2010)

Oh, cool. I'm sure some would be good for OH. 
Quite a few to look through though, so if anyone finds any that they feel are particularly good, leave a post about it please.


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## dabmasta (Aug 13, 2010)

Maybe I'm not seeing something here, but I don't think I understand the notation.


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## jiggy (Aug 13, 2010)

Kirjava said:


> All corners oriented
> 
> 28 - (RFWS) (RFAS)
> 57 - (RFAS) (RFWS)



I'm sure it's tucked away elsewhere in the list, but where is this case?






Unless you're suggesting doing 57 U2 57 or 28 U 28?


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## Tim Major (Aug 13, 2010)

Kirjava said:


> JeffDelucia said:
> 
> 
> > Does every single one leave corner permutation?
> ...




WAT WAT WAT?
Wow that's cool. Like... really cool


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## peedu (Aug 13, 2010)

jiggy said:


> Kirjava said:
> 
> 
> > All corners oriented
> ...



It's under "No edges flipped correctly". Number 20:

20 - (RFWAS) M (RFS) U M’


Peedu


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## jiggy (Aug 13, 2010)

peedu said:


> jiggy said:
> 
> 
> > Kirjava said:
> ...


Cheers!


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## irontwig (Aug 13, 2010)

Diagonal swap next?


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## Kirjava (Aug 13, 2010)

Some people seem to misunderstand. This is not presented as a speed alternative to full OLL - it has other applications. (Mainly OLLCP and OH)



irontwig said:


> Diagonal swap next?




Maybe. We were talking about covering full OLLCP with just Sune, Niklas and FRURUF.


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## Shortey (Aug 13, 2010)

Kir n' Rob<3


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## irontwig (Aug 13, 2010)

I like this alg for 6-move T with no CP:
B2 R' U R U' R' U' R2 B R' B
I don't think full OLLCP is worth the work, but having two OLL sets to avoid diagonal corner PLLs seems pretty useful. Proposed naming system somewhat analogous with EG:

OLLCP-0: Your OLL algs of choice.
OLLCP-1: This group avoids E, N, Y and V perms, unless you get a OLL skip that is.
OLLCP-2: The rest (2/3 of the cases), full on crazy.


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## mr. giggums (Aug 13, 2010)

Here's a printable page with pictures in case anyone wants it.

Clicky


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## whauk (Aug 13, 2010)

mr. giggums said:


> Here's a printable page with pictures in case anyone wants it.
> 
> Clicky



thanks. but some of them still need AUF at the beginning (or picture rotation)


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## cmhardw (Aug 14, 2010)

O_O
...
Must... learn... this.. as...quickly.....as....possible....starting....NOW.....



Kirjava said:


> Some people seem to misunderstand. This is not presented as a speed alternative to full OLL...



Why is it *not* being presented as a speed altenative to OLL (2H)? I think doing the OLL this way would have so much potential for replacing many, if not all, of the mentioned OLL cases.

Chris


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## DavidWoner (Aug 14, 2010)

Did someone mention... ONE HAND SUNE????


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## Anonymous (Aug 14, 2010)

cmhardw said:


> O_O
> ...
> Must... learn... this.. as...quickly.....as....possible....starting....NOW.....
> 
> ...



Well, I mean, I was under the impression that experienced cubers could get most OLLs under 1 second- I don't think many of these could be sub-1, could they?


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## hawkmp4 (Aug 14, 2010)

Yeah, the move count is going to be higher than traditional OLL. But this might be interesting enough to motivate me to learn full OLL instead of 2L OLL.


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## cmhardw (Aug 14, 2010)

Anonymous said:


> Well, I mean, I was under the impression that experienced cubers could get most OLLs under 1 second- I don't think many of these could be sub-1, could they?



I can see how some of the wide sune cases are definitely slower than the regular OLL case, but some cases like the bad C case is really quite fast with the sunes. I'm definitely going to go through this case by case and switch to ones that I can average faster than my regular OLL.

I don't think this set of algs should be written off as "slow because they're two sunes" but rather I think some of these algs have some definite potential to replace the "standard" algs.

Chris


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## mr. giggums (Aug 14, 2010)

whauk said:


> mr. giggums said:
> 
> 
> > Here's a printable page with pictures in case anyone wants it.
> ...



I thought I fixed them which ones are wrong?

EDIT: I found one here's the new version.


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## Dene (Aug 14, 2010)

I'll let you guys pick out the good ones and then I'll see if I like them


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## Robert-Y (Aug 14, 2010)

Well my opinion is that almost all of them are completely useless for 2H OLL but some of them (maybe<50%) are quite useful for OH OLL and a lot of them are good for erm... OH/2H *opposite corner swap PLL avoidance* (as well as OLLCP for all corners correctly permuted).

If there's a better phrase for *this*, I'd like to see it


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## vgbjason (Aug 14, 2010)

I`m sad that i no longer have an excuse to not know full oll


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## kutuan (Aug 14, 2010)

i dont understand the notation 

can somebody help to explain how come RFS (Right Front Sune) turn out to be regular Sune (RUR’URU2R’)

and RBWAS would be the Right Back Wide AntiSune (r’U2RUR’Ur) ?

i only know 2 sune algo : R U R' U R U2 R' for right sune and the L' U' L U' L' U2 L for the left sune

help me plissss


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## irontwig (Aug 14, 2010)

Right: RrU alg
Left: LlU alg
Wide: Starts and end with r/l move instead of R/L
Front: Starts with R/L'/r/l'
Back: Starts with R'/L/r'/l
Anti: Second turn is U2 instead of U/U', this is just Sune backwards

I would personally prefer stuff like "R'-Sune" and "l-Anti-Sune".


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## Robert-Y (Aug 14, 2010)

Ah yeah that's not a bad idea. I could or someone could change the notation to this new notation. Probably easier to understand I think/hope.


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## Kenneth (Aug 15, 2010)

Besides 3x3x3 the Sune OLLs works on the Siamese cube(s). I used to know most cases for a while but I treated it as being CLLEO =)

If you like to give "Fridrich" a try on that one, then you also need the "bad pair" insert: Rw U R' U' M


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## Stefan (Aug 20, 2010)

You're only five years late to the party 
http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/speedsolvingrubikscube/message/24097


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## Joker (Aug 20, 2010)

Really, really nice find. Some I might use some anti sune types for OH (I don't like the normal sune types OH that much). I'm gunna learn some of these for OH after I reach my sub 20 goal for 2H which shouldn't take too long now...and I'm pretty good at OH, its my best event...cept when it comes to the PLLs OH xD


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## Kirjava (Aug 20, 2010)

StefanPochmann said:


> You're only five years late to the party
> http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/speedsolvingrubikscube/message/24097




It says that 9 cases require 3 sunes when all cases are possible in 2. (With some magic)

Did you have a list of algs? I don't think the usefulness of this list would've been apparent 5 years ago ~_~.


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## Robert-Y (Aug 20, 2010)

(There are some cases which we've listed with 3 sunes because we (or just I) felt that doing 3 sunes for a few cases would have been faster than 2 with... some magic...)


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## Stefan (Aug 20, 2010)

Kirjava said:


> Did you have a list of algs? I don't think the usefulness of this list would've been apparent 5 years ago ~_~.



I don't think so, and apparently only posted solutions for the 4-edges-flip with three and two sunes. 
(Rw U2 R' U' R U' Rw') U' (Lw' U' L U' L' U2 Lw) (R' U' R U' R' U2 R)
(M U R U R' U R U2 R' M') (Rw U2 R' U' R U' Rw')

I believe we also talked somewhere about using only variants of the 6 moves T-OLL and about the combination of Sune and T-OLL variants. Are you interested in that as well? The T-OLL swaps corners diagonally, so if you do two, corner permutation isn't changed, just like when using Sunes.



Robert-Y said:


> There are some cases which we've listed with 3 sunes



Where? Not in the list in the first post here.


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## Kirjava (Aug 20, 2010)

StefanPochmann said:


> I believe we also talked before about using only variants of the 6 moves T-OLL and about the combination of Sune and T-OLL variants. Are you interested in that as well? The T-OLL swaps corners diagonally, so if you do two, corner permutation isn't changed, just like when using Sunes.




Indeed. A few posts ago I talked about covering every OLLCP case with just Sune, Niklas and FRURUF variations. The reason why I didn't do that at the time is that it's a lot of cases to find (300+) and I had enough to be getting on with.

If you had something to automagically generate the cases though....



StefanPochmann said:


> Robert-Y said:
> 
> 
> > There are some cases which we've listed with 3 sunes
> ...




35, 13 and 14? (Counting doublesunes as two)


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## Stefan (Aug 20, 2010)

Kirjava said:


> A few posts ago I talked about covering every OLLCP case with just Sune, Niklas and FRURUF variations.


Right, sorry, overlooked that. I don't think we ever analyzed it, looking forward to how this turns out.



Kirjava said:


> If you had something to automagically generate the cases though....


Are you doing this yourself so far instead of letting a program do it? I had a program for the Sunes but I don't know whether I still have it or how useful it would be. Maybe KSolve or GAP can help?



Kirjava said:


> 35, 13 and 14? (Counting doublesunes as two)


Oops, missed the "*2". Thanks.


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## Kirjava (Aug 20, 2010)

StefanPochmann said:


> Are you doing this yourself so far instead of letting a program do it? I had a program for the Sunes but I don't know whether I still have it or how useful it would be. Maybe KSolve or GAP can help?




We found all these by hand since the number of algs isn't that large and I trust myself to come up with nicer things to execute than a computer 

However, something with a larger number of algs would require a different approach. 

KSolve is a good shout - I need to learn how to use it anyway for a bunch of other things. I've never written a solver before, but it's a possibility if I'm feeling particularly masochistic.

An alternative is to set up a collaborative document (GoogleDox? MoonEdit?) that a group of us could edit and gradually fill in each case. We would need quite a large number of contributors to get it finished in any sort of reasonable time period though. One advantage of this technique is that the algorithms produced this way are more likely to be ergonomically friendly than their computer generated counterparts.


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## mr. giggums (Aug 20, 2010)

Kirjava said:


> StefanPochmann said:
> 
> 
> > Are you doing this yourself so far instead of letting a program do it? I had a program for the Sunes but I don't know whether I still have it or how useful it would be. Maybe KSolve or GAP can help?
> ...



I would help if you wanted. I've too bored for the past couple of weeks with not much to do.


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## oll+phase+sync (May 12, 2011)

mr. giggums said:


> EDIT: I found one here's the new version.


 
I didn't know OLL when I started reading this thread ( and still don't know every case). Most beginner guides to OLL start with: learn Trigger, learn Alg = Trigger combo , learn pattern ... repeat. 

My hope was that using Sune OLL, I can solve OLL "dynamicly" (with out knowing all the patterns, similar to "niklas-COLL" )

So here is my suggestion how to start learning Sune OLL

Step 0: Startup Knowledge 
7 corners only OLLs
3 edges only OLLs
(10 / 57)

Step 1: More Single Alg Sunes 
4 fatSunes 
4 M-prefixed Sunes ( e.G. M RUR’URU2R’ UM’)
( 18 / 57)

Step 2: Knowing the Bad ones
The basic idea at this point is that all other OLLs can be solved by just combining two Sunes/fat Sunes but
some cases are not that nice. To be able to use any kind of “intuitive” prediction, I should know these 6 unpredictable cases.
3 cases require M-prefixed Sunes (Cs and one Line/Bar )
3 cases reqire triple combos (some big Ls and one Kite )
(24/57)

Step 4: Categorization
 I tried to categorize the remaining combo cases. 

7 fatSune + normal Sune ( these ones do EO first and are really predictable, it's really bad there are so few of this kind )

12 combining two fat Sunes ( besides Dot-cases and fatDoublesunes , this is already much harder to predict)

14 normal Sune first + fat Sune second 

In the End: 
For me full dynamic prediction didn’t really work. For most of the cases I ended up remembering the pattern (including AUF) and the combo category. (wich is still much easier than learning 33 algs)

P.S.
Is the somewhere a thread about FRUR’U’F’/Sune - OLL


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## CubicNL (Aug 13, 2011)

Here's a list of all the 16 sune variations written out:
RFS: RUR'URU2R'
RBS: R'U'RU'R'U2R
LFS: L'U'LU'L'U2L
LBS: LUL'ULU2L'
RFAS:	RU2R'U'RU'R'	
RBAS:	R'U2RUR'UR
LFAS: L'U2L'U'LU'L'
LBAS: LU2LUL'UL
RFWS:	rUR'URU2r'
RBWS:	r'U'RU'R'U2r
LFWS:	l'U'LU'L'U2l
LBWS:	lUL'ULU2l'
RFWAS:	rU2R'U'RU'r'	
RBWAS:	r'U2RUR'Ur
LFWAS: l'U2L'U'LU'l'
LBWAS:	lU2LUL'Ul

I'm planning to learn this for OH and since I didn't really master the notation I made this list for myself.


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## cubernya (Aug 13, 2011)

CubicNL said:


> LBS: LUL'ULU2L'


 
I've used this for a long time. Although it may seem like a lefty's alg, it's actually great because L turns with left hand and U turns with right hand (alternating hands) so it's very fast


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## CubicNL (Aug 13, 2011)

theZcuber said:


> I've used this for a long time. Although it may seem like a lefty's alg, it's actually great because L turns with left hand and U turns with right hand (alternating hands) so it's very fast


 
I still use it because I like it over the regular sune (which is probably faster...)


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## Kirjava (Aug 14, 2011)

Ok so I have a program now to find Niklas/Sune/Fruruf/whatever combinations for any OLLCP/LL case.

It'd be nice to have an EasyOLLCP list but making a list of the cases is a grind.


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## Escher (Aug 14, 2011)

Kirjava said:


> Ok so I have a program now to find Niklas/Sune/Fruruf/whatever combinations for any OLLCP/LL case.
> 
> It'd be nice to have an EasyOLLCP list but making a list of the cases is a grind.


 
I would help you make list :3

But not til end of August.

Full (excluding pointless cases) OLLCP here I come


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## Kirjava (Aug 15, 2011)

Escher said:


> I would help you make list :3


 
We should do it, it'd be smarter for me to learn OLLCP instead of ZBLL anyway >.>

I just need a list of cases in a certain format.


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## Cielo (Aug 15, 2011)

Wow, looking forward to OLLCP!


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## riffz (Aug 15, 2011)

We REALLY need a wiki or some collaboration tool for this. I'm too lazy though.


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## Kirjava (Aug 15, 2011)

Don't worry, I'm on it


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## mark49152 (Feb 6, 2013)

Bumping because this is a cool thread. Did this project ever go anywhere?

On a vaguely related question, does anyone know of a list of OCLL cases that arise after applying simple EOLL for each OLL case? I'm interested in learning a few more OLL algs, and am looking for a systematic way to assess the time saving for each case - or indeed for which cases SuneOLL might be worth using as an alternative to 2-look.


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## Kirjava (Feb 6, 2013)

mark49152 said:


> Bumping because this is a cool thread. Did this project ever go anywhere?



Yeah. I used the same technique to learn OLLCP.

Then I tried extending it to 1LLL. Still in progress


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## mark49152 (Feb 6, 2013)

Kirjava said:


> Yeah. I used the same technique to learn OLLCP.


Are the OLLCP algs documented anywhere?


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## Kirjava (Feb 6, 2013)

yep

http://www.speedsolving.com/forum/showthread.php?31506-OLLCP-(hax)


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## uberCuber (Feb 6, 2013)

Kirjava said:


> Then I tried extending it to 1LLL. Still in progress



Have you been working on this lately, or are you waiting until more ideas pop into your head? Not impatient, just curious.


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## Kirjava (Feb 6, 2013)

uberCuber said:


> Have you been working on this lately, or are you waiting until more ideas pop into your head? Not impatient, just curious.



Apathy atm. I know exactly what to do now - it's just the grinding part.


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## uberCuber (Feb 6, 2013)

I see. I'd offer to help with grinding, but I know I'd lose motivation myself far too quickly


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## mark49152 (Apr 15, 2013)

irontwig said:


> Right: RrU alg
> Left: LlU alg
> Wide: Starts and end with r/l move instead of R/L
> Front: Starts with R/L'/r/l'
> ...



This doesn't add up for me, can someone expert please help?

The Sune case (three mis-oriented corners pointing clockwise) is solved by RUR'URU2R' (Right Front Sune) when the correctly oriented corner is at UFL, as everyone knows. The same case with oriented corner at UFR is solved by R'U2RUR'UR which by the above notation would be a Right Back AntiSune. It doesn't make sense that an AntiSune alg solves a Sune case. Worse still, the usual alg R'U'RU'R'U2R for OLL26 (AntiSune) would be named a Sune by the above definition.

So what's the rationale? Does "Sune" refer primarily to the case or the alg pattern?

It would make more sense if:-
- RU = Sune
- R'U' = AntiSune
- RU2 = Inverse Sune or Inverse AntiSune depending on corner case solved (Inverse Sune solves AntiSune, etc.)


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## Kirjava (Apr 15, 2013)

mark49152 said:


> So what's the rationale? Does "Sune" refer primarily to the case or the alg pattern?
> 
> It would make more sense if:-
> - RU = Sune
> ...



You're just wrong.

Sune refers to the alg pattern. If in doubt, Lars Petrus.


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## mark49152 (Apr 15, 2013)

Thanks for the pointer. What am I wrong about? I was just asking a question.


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## Kirjava (Apr 15, 2013)

You assumed that the Sune/AntiSune naming scheme went by corner orientation configuration instead of name of alg.


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## mark49152 (Apr 15, 2013)

No, I made an observation not an assumption, and the purpose of my post was to question it. Numerous sites label those two CO configs as Sune and AntiSune, including the SS wiki OLL page. The wiki page for Sune explicitly states that the name refers to both the alg and the case. My observation was that using the same names for both cases and algs results in contradictions.

Anyway, thanks for clearing that up!


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