# Stackmat Pro Timers and the WCA



## Daniel Wu (Aug 16, 2012)

As far as I am aware, the gen 2 timers are no longer available for purchase from the Speedstack website because they are only selling gen 3 timers. Also, at US Nationals this year, there were gen 3 timers that were used. So I have several questions.

Is the WCA going to eventually have to make the transition from gen 2 to gen 3 timers? Does the WCA prefer one type of timer over another? If the WCA prefers the gen 2 timer, is there still a way to purchase new gen 2 timers? 

What is the procedure for recording times off of a gen 3 timer? For example, a time of 12.348. Is that recorded as 12.348 (actual time), 12.34 (time on external display, truncated), or 12.35 (time to the hundredths (rounded)? How exactly are averages calculated using this system? Assuming times are recorded in full to the thousandth, does one round the times (to the hundredth) before calculating the average or after calculating the average? While often negligible, this could make a difference in someones average if only by a hundredth. And of course, having some kind of standardization (possibly outlined in the WCA Regulations?) is good for keeping consistency as far as calculating the results. 

Another question/problem I have is stopping the timer. Sometimes, when stopping the gen 3 timers, it resets to 0 despite the reset button never being pressed (at least in my experience with 3 gen 3 timers). This happens significantly more frequently than with the gen 2 timers. Is the competitor awarded another solve? I believe this is the case based on Article 11 of the WCA Regulations. However, if this is a common occurrence, it could cause major problems. In a way, it's similar to the POP rule where people could potentially make their cube POP on a bad solve in order to get a new scramble. I notice that the timer only resets when hit with a good bit of force, even though it is not stopped unreasonably forcefully. So, people could realize that they are having a bad solve and intentionally stop the timer with unnecessary force in the hopes of getting a new scramble. 

Basically, I'm just confused about what exactly the procedures are for the new gen 3 timers and also bringing up some problems that they pose.

(Sorry if there are typos, it's like 2:30 in the morning haha)


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## speedcubingman (Aug 16, 2012)

http://www.speedstacks.com/store3/retail/speed-stacks-stackademics-competitor/ just that you get cups and a bag.


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## ardi4nto (Aug 16, 2012)

rickcube said:


> Is the WCA going to eventually have to make the transition from gen 2 to gen 3 timers? Does the WCA prefer one type of timer over another? If the WCA prefers the gen 2 timer, is there still a way to purchase new gen 2 timers?
> 
> What is the procedure for recording times off of a gen 3 timer? For example, a time of 12.348. Is that recorded as 12.348 (actual time), 12.34 (time on external display, truncated), or 12.35 (time to the hundredths (rounded)? How exactly are averages calculated using this system? Assuming times are recorded in full to the thousandth, does one round the times (to the hundredth) before calculating the average or after calculating the average? While often negligible, this could make a difference in someones average if only by a hundredth. And of course, having some kind of standardization (possibly outlined in the WCA Regulations?) is good for keeping consistency as far as calculating the results.



The times is truncated in the last US Nationals before calculating average.
Can only answer this question though.


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## Dene (Aug 16, 2012)

I can assure you the delegates have been addressing everything regarding the gen3 timers. I am not making an official statement, but this is the general consensus:

We will not use thousandths of a second at any time in the forseeable future. The thousandth of a second digit will be *truncated*, not rounded. I don't think there was any agreement as to when is the best time to truncate during a competition, but all averages will be worked out with the truncated times (I think the best thing is for the judge to write down the whole time, including thousandths of a second, and the person doing data entry can truncate).

At some stage in the future the generation 2 timers will be phased out, but no date has been set for that. For now both timers are acceptable, and I suspect it will stay this way for at least 2 or 3 years. 

Naturally, due to the issues that became obvious at USnats with the timers resetting, there is a big problem that has to be dealt with. At this stage I believe we are waiting on advice from Speedstacks as to what's going on with the timers resetting, as it will be a major problem for them too. If it happens during a competition the only thing that can be done is a resolve.


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## tx789 (Aug 16, 2012)

the winning single time is one two people have wouldn't going to the 1/1000th a good idea thoose the only event that may happen often is magic and it is getting removed


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## Bob (Aug 16, 2012)

speedcubingman said:


> http://www.speedstacks.com/store3/retail/speed-stacks-stackademics-competitor/ just that you get cups and a bag.



That is a limited stock since those timers are no longer being manufactured. The link you posted is a band-aid to the problem--not a solution. However, it is also significantly more expensive than the PRO timers.


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## Godmil (Aug 16, 2012)

Is there a difference between the Gen3 and the Pro? Do they both have resetting issues?


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## Stefan (Aug 16, 2012)

Dene said:


> I think the best thing is for the judge to write down the whole time, including thousandths of a second, and the person doing data entry can truncate



Or put opaque tape on the timer over the last digit so it isn't seen in the first place, so the judge can't mistakenly round up.



tx789 said:


> the winning single time is one two people have wouldn't going to the 1/1000th a good idea thoose the only event that may happen often is magic and it is getting removed



Don't drink and post.


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## Blake4512 (Aug 16, 2012)

Godmil said:


> Is there a difference between the Gen3 and the Pro? Do they both have resetting issues?



Gen 3 is the new one that doesn't have the save buttons and it doesn't have the third decimal place. It also doesn't have the port to connect to the tournament display. The pro timer is the one used at nationals, which is pretty much completely blue and has the save buttons and 3rd decimal place. I'm not sure if the gen 3 has reseting issues since I've never tried one, but there is a major downfall having no data port.


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## Dene (Aug 16, 2012)

Stefan said:


> Or put opaque tape on the timer over the last digit so it isn't seen in the first place, so the judge can't mistakenly round up.



Another solution, but certainly not worthy of being enforced as a rule. There are plenty of ways to do it, and I'm sure the owner of the equipment, along with the delegate (who is probably often the owner as well) can come to a decision as to how they will manage it. I think the most important thing is that it *isn't* left to the judges, as that will only cause problems.


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## Pedro (Aug 16, 2012)

Blake4512 said:


> Gen 3 is the new one that doesn't have the save buttons and it doesn't have the third decimal place. It also doesn't have the port to connect to the tournament display. The pro timer is the one used at nationals, which is pretty much completely blue and has the save buttons and 3rd decimal place. I'm not sure if the gen 3 has reseting issues since I've never tried one, but there is a major downfall having no data port.



I thought the Pro timer was this one: http://www.speedstacks.com/store3/retail/speed-stacks-stackmat-pro/

Also, the one in this video http://www.speedsolving.com/forum/s...12-(Las-Vegas)&p=772020&viewfull=1#post772020 doesn't look like that one in the link, but people who were there are saying it was a Pro timer.

I never actually saw a gen3 or pro, so I know nothing, but I'm confused


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## Stefan (Aug 16, 2012)

Pedro said:


> I thought the Pro timer was this one: http://www.speedstacks.com/store3/retail/speed-stacks-stackmat-pro/



Correct. And you agree with Blake4512 (who you responded to).



Pedro said:


> Also, the one in this video http://www.speedsolving.com/forum/s...12-(Las-Vegas)&p=772020&viewfull=1#post772020 doesn't look like that one in the link, but people who were there are saying it was a Pro timer.



Those in the video are Gen 2. We switched back from Pro to Gen 2 because of the problems.


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## Daniel Wu (Aug 16, 2012)

When I was referring to Gen 3 timers resetting, I meant the Pro timers. I seem to have confused them.


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## Bob (Aug 16, 2012)

rickcube said:


> When I was referring to Gen 3 timers resetting, I meant the Pro timers. I seem to have confused them.



Don't worry. There's a lot of that going around.


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## mrpotatoman14 (Aug 16, 2012)

http://www.everbuying.com/product180538.html
I know that some people don't like qj timers but I thought I'd put that out there.


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## Bob (Aug 17, 2012)

I don't think the solution is to buy a knock-off version.


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## tx789 (Aug 17, 2012)

Stefan said:


> Don't drink and post.





I'm only 15 just


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## JasonK (Aug 17, 2012)

tx789 said:


> I'm only 15 just



HE IS REFERRING TO THE WAY YOUR POSTS MAKE YOU LOOK LIKE YOU ARE DRUNK/HIGH/INSANE. Clear enough?


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## TMOY (Aug 17, 2012)

tx789 said:


> I'm only 15 just


Which is a very good reason not to drink 

Seriously, your first post in ths thread just makes no sense, I don't even know what you're trying to say.


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## Mike Hughey (Aug 17, 2012)

Bob said:


> I don't think the solution is to buy a knock-off version.



But it's "in High Quality for Competition Use"!

Well, to be complete, it's "New Brand QJ Third Generation Time Machine Connecting to Computer/ Displayer in High Quality for Competition Use".


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## Stefan (Aug 17, 2012)

Bob said:


> I don't think the solution is to buy a knock-off version.



Well, if it's better, why not?


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## Ickenicke (Aug 17, 2012)

TMOY said:


> Seriously, your first post in ths thread just makes no sense, I don't even know what you're trying to say.



Seriously? I think that he tries to say that it is good to use gen3 timers beacuse you get times down to 1/1000 of a second. And he think it would be most useful for magics, but magics are getting removed. 

Something like that


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## RNewms27 (Aug 17, 2012)

I have a QJ and it doesn't start half the time. I have to check right after I begin a solve to see if it started. I went back to using Cohen's timer on my iPod.

All stackmat timers seem to be better than QJ.


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## Daniel Wu (Aug 17, 2012)

RNewms27 said:


> I have a QJ and it doesn't start half the time. I have to check right after I begin a solve to see if it started. I went back to using Cohen's timer on my iPod.
> 
> All stackmat timers seem to be better than QJ.


I experienced the same type of problems with my QJ timer. I could only use it for around 10 solves because it broke. Despite the current problems with stackmat timers, they are still much higher quality than QJ timers.


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## Stefan (Aug 17, 2012)

RNewms27 said:


> I have a QJ and it doesn't start half the time. I have to check right after I begin a solve to see if it started. I went back to using Cohen's timer on my iPod.
> 
> All stackmat timers seem to be better than *my* QJ.



Fixed that for you, don't see why you suddenly generalized there like that.

And http://www.stefan-pochmann.info/misc/stackmat/qj_accuracy.png


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## Bob (Aug 17, 2012)

Stefan, did you get a PRO timer? Would you be able to do a similar analogy for PRO vs QJ?


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## Stefan (Aug 17, 2012)

No, I don't have one. But Natan did a similar test with a PRO and apparently it doesn't have gaps.


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## Puzzlaholic (Aug 1, 2013)

They really should've put a "recall" button on the timer that would recall the last time before a reset. That's what I think.

Aside from that, I have a question regarding the data port on these new timers. How does one connect this timer to a PC and what cubing timers are currently available that are compatible with Gen3 timers?
Any help would be appreciated


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## Tim Major (Aug 1, 2013)

> Checklist:
> HARDWARE:
> 1) use a stackmat with an output
> 2) buy a stereo jack cable with 3,5mm on each end
> ...




http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=gE0OoUhP6pU


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## Puzzlaholic (Aug 1, 2013)

Okay. I figured that part out on my own, but I was just thinking that there might be a specific cable that cubers use that plugs directly from the timer to the PC rather than converting 3.5mm to 2.5mm etc.
The second part of my question remains unanswered and that is which program cubers use with this new timer (if there is such a thing, yet).


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## Nathan Dwyer (Aug 1, 2013)

If a competition is using pro timers and the judges are told to write the entire time out and let the person entering times truncate it, if 2 people both got an 11.38 3x3 average (for example), and one person's best time was a 9.627 and the other person's best time was a 9.628, would they go to the thousandths place to determine the winner?


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## Stefan (Aug 1, 2013)

Puzzlaholic said:


> I was just thinking that there might be a specific cable that cubers use that plugs directly from the timer to the PC rather than converting 3.5mm to 2.5mm etc.



I use a 3.5mm male to 2.5mm male cable. They cost less than a dollar with free shipping.


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## Puzzlaholic (Aug 5, 2013)

Thank you, Stefan. That's what I'm looking for


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## Bob (Aug 6, 2013)

Nathan Dwyer said:


> If a competition is using pro timers and the judges are told to write the entire time out and let the person entering times truncate it, if 2 people both got an 11.38 3x3 average (for example), and one person's best time was a 9.627 and the other person's best time was a 9.628, would they go to the thousandths place to determine the winner?



No.


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## kcl (Aug 6, 2013)

This doesn't exactly pertain to the thread, but does anyone know if the rainbow mat and timer set on speedstacks has a timer with a data port? I'm confused because it says the timer and mat are gen2, but the mat is shaped like gen3 (good thing). So assuming it's a mat shaped like a gen3 with gen2 stuff, does the timer have a data port, memory, that stuff? Thanks..


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