# American-made cubes?



## SpeedCubeReview (May 25, 2014)

Hey, 
I am new to the forum. I just started solving cubes less than a week ago. At the moment I can solve a 3x3 with the earth shattering time of under 3 minutes. 

I have the original Rubik's, a unnamed "Cube Magic Square" off of ebay, and a New design 3x3, and 2x2 Rubik's on their way. I don't think I am going to dive into the world of speed solving just yet and for the moment enjoy just being able to solve it/learning designs. 

I've noticed every cube I have looked up is made in China, or another east asian country. Even my Rubik's cube says "made in china." *are there any cubes that are made in the U.S. or even Europe?*


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## Hypocrism (May 25, 2014)

Why, exactly?

All the cubes I know of come from manufacturers in that area-the Dayan Series, Moyu, ...


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## 10461394944000 (May 25, 2014)

v-cubes are made in greece

thats probably about it


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## TinaIsAwesome (May 25, 2014)

First of all welcome! Now to answer your question, besides the original Rubik's Cube, other classic puzzles, and V-Cubes, not that I can think of but does it really matter?


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## SpeedCubeReview (May 25, 2014)

Thank you. 

Without getting into a ethics debate, I want to try and buy more things local (or as local as I can), and I also don't know about possible bad labor practices.. Although, I am typing this on an iPhone at the moment...


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## qqwref (May 25, 2014)

The truth is that the puzzle factories that are coming up with the best new designs are almost all near China. Part of this is that making puzzles is cheaper and easier in China - not just because of the labor, but because getting things like molds done is cheaper, and because there are already plenty of factories that are designed for churning out tons of plastic objects cheaply, and because more lax intellectual property laws let them make new designs that may be similar to old ones without going through a ton of bureaucracy.

I believe Shapeways is headquartered in the US, so if you get one of the crazy custom puzzles from there, it may be 3D printed in the US. And, of course, if you buy a custom puzzle from a US-based puzzle modder, they will have done most of the work of creating the puzzle itself. Of course with both of these options you will be paying a lot, and getting puzzles that are generally not designed and built with speedsolving in mind.


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## Tony Fisher (May 26, 2014)

ViolaBouquet said:


> and I also don't know about possible bad labor practices


That is certainly a valid reason to be concerned. I know however that Roxanne Wong has visited several Chinese puzzle factories and she has never reported anything bad. Maybe they have improved in recent years.


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## Jont828 (May 26, 2014)

All I know is that V-Cubes are in Greece and Shapeways are in the U.S., but that was already mentioned. But generally all the cubes are based in Asia (Dayan, Moyu, WitEden(?), Shengshou, etc). I am Chinese, and I think that most puzzle designers/businesses are in China or somewhere in Asia because generally they will find a hard time sustaining their business in the U.S. or Europe.


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## brian724080 (May 26, 2014)

Rubik's Speedcube is the closet you will get


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## Rocky0701 (May 26, 2014)

Jont828 said:


> All I know is that V-Cubes are in Greece and Shapeways are in the U.S., but that was already mentioned. But generally all the cubes are based in Asia (Dayan, Moyu, WitEden(?), Shengshou, etc). I am Chinese, and I think that most puzzle designers/businesses are in China or somewhere in Asia because generally they will find a hard time sustaining their business in the U.S. or Europe.


That was your 100th post. 



brian724080 said:


> Rubik's Speedcube is the closet you will get


That was your five hundredth post.

Lol, in all seriousness. There are no american made speedcubes, or at least none that are worth using.


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## SpeedCubeReview (May 26, 2014)

Thank you. I think my next cube will be a V-cube. The pillow look is quite interesting too. I sent them a message and they said all of their cubes (V2-V7) are made in Greece except the V8 which is made in china


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## 10461394944000 (May 26, 2014)

ViolaBouquet said:


> Thank you. I think my next cube will be a V-cube. The pillow look is quite interesting too. I sent them a message and they said all of their cubes (V2-V7) are made in Greece except the V8 which is made in china



vcubes are alot more expensive than other stuff (like shengshou) and not very good


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## Jont828 (May 26, 2014)

ViolaBouquet said:


> Thank you. I think my next cube will be a V-cube. The pillow look is quite interesting too. I sent them a message and they said all of their cubes (V2-V7) are made in Greece except the V8 which is made in china



Dude...why do you dislike China so much...? But in all seriousness, V-Cubes arent that good and they're quite expensive, like the person above me said. Get the Dayan Zhanchi or the Moyu WeiLong if you want a fast cube or the Shengshou Aurora if you want a cube that's slower and more controllable.


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## FailCuber (May 26, 2014)

Dude, Shengshou is much cheaper the the V cubes and much better. Also if you want a 3x3 don't go with the v cube.


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## DeeDubb (May 27, 2014)

Obviously, the OP isn't interested in buying from China, so I don't know why everyone is wasting their time telling him how much better Chinese cubes are. They are obviously better and cheaper, but he doesn't want to buy from China.


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## Tony Fisher (May 27, 2014)

Jont828 said:


> All I know is that V-Cubes are in Greece and Shapeways are in the U.S.,


Not really relevant but Shapeways is also in Holland and that's where it originated.


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## Rocky0701 (May 27, 2014)

If you don't want to stimulate the chinese economy, I understand. I am the same way along with many other Americans who want to reduce imports, but a few cubes isn't going to affect much. How about trying to get people to stop buying much larger and more expensive items coming in from China such as cars, instead of wasting your time and money trying to boycott china by buying overpriced and cruddy V-Cubes who also are not from the US? Just a thought.


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## guysensei1 (May 27, 2014)

I'm pretty sure Maru is a Taiwanese company, but Taiwan is technically part of China.


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## SpeedCubeReview (May 27, 2014)

DeeDubb said:


> Obviously, the OP isn't interested in buying from China, so I don't know why everyone is wasting their time telling him how much better Chinese cubes are. They are obviously better and cheaper, but he doesn't want to buy from China.


Yes. I understand that the "best" speed cubes are from China, but I'm not looking to compete anytime soon. 

*Rocky0701*, It's not so much about trying to not "stimulate the Chinese economy" but more about trying to not exploit cheap labor. That is why I'm fine buying from V-cube. Even though it's not the U.S. I can still be sure that the labor practices are a bit better. That being said I'm sure that close to 99% of all of my clothes and electronics are manufactured with cheap labor as well. Maybe I'm trying to be more principled than is really necessary and in the future might end up giving into to the norm and buy a Shengshou or Dayan. After really becoming fascinated a week ago and finding the worldwide involvement in speed cubing I think I was just taken back by the lack of companies that exist outside of East Asia.


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## Tony Fisher (May 27, 2014)

ViolaBouquet said:


> That is why I'm fine buying from V-cube.


Based on what you have said so far I would advise you to get a V-cube 5 or V-cube 7. The quality is very high and much better than the V-Cube 6. Some speedcubers will tell you they are rubbish but when compared to the thousands of other twisty puzzles in the world they would come very near the top.


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## kcl (May 27, 2014)

Tony Fisher said:


> Based on what you have said so far I would advise you to get a V-cube 5 or V-cube 7. The quality is very high and much better than the V-Cube 6. Some speedcubers will tell you they are rubbish but when compared to the thousands of other twisty puzzles in the world they would come very near the top.



That's because for speedcubing, they ARE.


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## Tony Fisher (May 27, 2014)

kclejeune said:


> That's because for speedcubing, they ARE.


He stated he wasn't planning to enter competitions so they are suitable for him and the millions of other people who just like to solve puzzles in their own time.


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## PeelingStickers (May 27, 2014)

Tony Fisher said:


> He stated he wasn't planning to enter competitions so they are suitable for him and the millions of other people who just like to solve puzzles in their own time.



except for the fact that they cost more. But oh well, that's your opinion.


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## Chree (May 27, 2014)

He (she?) is new to cubing in general, and doesn't need the best speedcubes available.

The V3 is a good cube when compared to a Rubik's brand. And the price is pretty comparable these days. Obviously they don't compare with the speed and affordability of later speedcubes, but for a beginner who's not super serious about being fast, not an issue.

That said, my two cents would be... don't worry about it. If this is a matter of principle, there is no need to conflate Shengshou, Dayan or Moyu with companies that are highly disreputable like [insert name of that company that makes iPhones here]. As Tony stated before... many people from the community can vouch for these companies and that the working conditions are fine. Just because they're in China doesn't mean they're exploiting cheap labor. If anything, we should support the companies that do good work and treat their employees well, regardless of nationality, especially if they are producing something you love and want to see flourish!

As to the original question: are there American made speed cubes? Probably. And they're probably terrible.


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## goodatthis (May 27, 2014)

In all seriousness though, towards the OP, Greece has a terrible economy, so you probably don't want to stimulate their economy either. And there's honestly not anything wrong with buying things from China. Especially with a 10 dollar speedcube, China is such a widespread seller of cubes that it's stupid to make a decision like that. 

Just buy from Moyu or Dayan. And if if makes you feel better, you could buy from an American website.

And if your 'Murican pride is hurt by having a Chinese cube, peel the logo off!

Actually, I'm thinking about designing and 3D printing a cube for my tech class, I could make 2 and sell you the other for like 15 bucks and it will be completely 100% American!


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## Stewy (May 27, 2014)

ViolaBouquet said:


> That is why I'm fine buying from V-cube. Even though it's not the U.S. I can still be sure that the labor practices are a bit better.



but how are you 100% sure that their plant in Greece isn't using cheap labour? for all you know v-cubes are made in sweatshops in greece while dayan, shengshou, etc cubes are made by well-paid workers on a production line in great working conditions. unless you fly out and inspect the plants yourself you'll never be sure. people hear the words "made in china" and instantly jump to conclusions.


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## Tahrbo (May 28, 2014)

OP, you just touched upon this in your last post, but I'd like to address it in detail.

Yes, you are in fact being more principled than is really necessary.

The fight that you would make in paying more attention to your clothes, dishes, and many other items in your life (as far as items that need regular replacement, your clothes would be more than enough) and making sure that they aren't made in sweatshops would yield significantly better results than the fight to buy speedcubes that aren't made in countries that are presumed to operate a high percentage of sweatshops.

Making sure that your speedcubes aren't "sweatshopped" just isn't a battle that is worth it, in terms of the difference in quality (between sweatshopped cubes and those made anywhere that chopsticks aren't de rigeur), and the difference in cost.

By comparison, clothing made pretty much anywhere can be compared to clothing made pretty much anywhere else (aside from high-end junk and blah ****ing blah) so putting your dollars towards fair labor practices re: clothing makes a much bigger difference, both to the financial support you give to fair labor companies (and the dollars you're not putting toward sweatshops), as well as the awareness you're spreading among your friends, family, and peers. When you spread the word about fairly manufactured clothing, those around you take note. You're spreading mindshare, and you're letting people know about clothes (or whatever else).

No one's going to give a damn if you only buy non-Chinese (I'm just singling out China for simplicity) speedcubes. A single "lost" purchase of maybe $20 isn't going to hurt Moyu or Dayan. Buying 5 shirts a year from a good company WILL be noticed, as it helps the company you support and hurts the evil company you ignore.

There is another point here that I'm re-emphasizing that makes all of this ******** kind of moot anyway:
We have no concrete proof that Moyu/Dayan/etc ARE in fact operating a sweatshop. We have no proof that V-Cube DOESN'T in fact have Eponine and her 25 sisters/cousins chained to a wall along with an iPod set to infinite repeat "We Built This City" playing in the background.

Yes, Greece is less known for labor abuse. Yes, China has done ****-all towards dispelling the perception that they do nothing but exploit workers. But we simply don't know in the case of speedcubes which is true and which isn't, aside from going there in person. And the end game difference is maybe $20 at best. How much does a pair of pants that you buy cost, or your belt or shoes? A speedcube can last years, how often do you buy new clothes? THOSE are the companies that will feel the hit.

I highly recommend that as far as speedcubes are concerned, you let it go and just buy a good one from Moyu or Dayan. Just give up this fight, the victory isn't worth it, and set your mind (which is already admirably aware of the main issue at hand) towards other products that are much more salient towards your argument.


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## DeeDubb (May 28, 2014)

I'm fine with you taking your stand, but here's my two cents:

If there was an American company that even made COMPETENT Rubik's Cubes, I would gladly pay a few dollars more to support our country. However, the fact is, there's just NOTHING in the US that is even close to resembling a speed cube. Essentially, speed cubes are Chinese innovation. Chinese cubes are not knock-offs, they are the standard.

If I were you, I would buy from an American retailer rather than lightake or hknowstore, that way some of your money goes into the pockets of Americans and stimulates our economy.


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## Tony Fisher (May 28, 2014)

PeelingStickers said:


> except for the fact that they cost more. But oh well, that's your opinion.


Cost more than which non Chinese equivalent? Sorry I don't understand.



DeeDubb said:


> Chinese cubes are not knock-offs,


Wow, where have you been for the last 5 years? Many most certainly are.



Stewy said:


> but how are you 100% sure that their plant in Greece isn't using cheap labour? for all you know v-cubes are made in sweatshops in greece while dayan, shengshou, etc cubes are made by well-paid workers on a production line in great working conditions. unless you fly out and inspect the plants yourself you'll never be sure. people hear the words "made in china" and instantly jump to conclusions.


You can't be certain. However I had talks with V-Cubes several years ago. They were considering using Chinese factories and toured some. They were not very happy with what they saw. To be honest I think it was mostly because they saw KO puzzles being produced alongside reputable ones but also the general working conditions were not good. These two reasons are why they stayed in Greece and suggests working conditions are better there. The production of the V-Cube 8 in China suggests that things are now better but I am guessing not perfect.


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## FailCuber (May 28, 2014)

Tony Fisher said:


> Wow, where have you been for the last 5 years? Many most certainly are.
> .


You think ZhanChi, Weilong are knockoffs? I don't see how it's a knockoffs.

by the way i am a fan of your videos


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## guysensei1 (May 28, 2014)

FailCuber said:


> You think ZhanChi, Weilong are knockoffs? I don't see how it's a knockoffs.
> 
> by the way i am a fan of your videos



He said most, not all.

Ahem, shengshou


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## DeeDubb (May 28, 2014)

Tony Fisher said:


> Wow, where have you been for the last 5 years? Many most certainly are.



Many cubes are, sure. But knockoff generally implies inferiority to the original. Chinese cubes are the standard. Even ones that are considered to be infringing on copyrights, such as SS big cubes, are far superior to the cubes they are "knocking off".


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## guysensei1 (May 28, 2014)

DeeDubb said:


> Many cubes are, sure. But knockoff generally implies inferiority to the original. Chinese cubes are the standard. Even ones that are considered to be infringing on copyrights, such as SS big cubes, are far superior to the cubes they are "knocking off".



The dictionary defines it as ' a copy or imitation of someone or something popular'. No mention of inferiority.


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## DeeDubb (May 28, 2014)

guysensei1 said:


> The dictionary defines it as ' a copy or imitation of someone or something popular'. No mention of inferiority.



Popular usage is a powerful thing... often more powerful than dictionary definitions. It's why I used "implies" rather than "is defined as."

Anyway, I'll clarify my original post by saying, not ALL Chinese cubes are knockoffs in any sense of the word. Dayan and Moyu both create their own designs which do not infringe on copyrights, and they are the standard for cubes these days


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## 10461394944000 (May 28, 2014)

@op: you should stop caring about not buying stuff from china and buy shengshou everything because they are cheap and good.


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## kcl (May 28, 2014)

Tony Fisher said:


> Cost more than which non Chinese equivalent? Sorry I don't understand.
> 
> 
> Wow, where have you been for the last 5 years? Many most certainly are.
> ...



1. He wasn't talking about a non Chinese equivalent. He meant it's a lot more expensive than buying a well designed high quality puzzle that happens to be from china. 


2.Name a cube that ACTUALLY looks like a knockoff that has been designed in the past 2 years. Most of it is v cube trying to raise hell in order to get some money and eliminate competition. 


3. It sounds like you hit your own point here. We don't have any proof of working conditions in china OR Greece. I wouldn't be surprised if they had a little temper tantrum over seeing awesome "knockoff" cubes, and decided to stay in Greece.


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## DeeDubb (May 29, 2014)

I really like CBC's documentary about V-Cube knockoffs complaints... I don't know if it's 100% accurate, but it gives a pretty good view and pretty unbiased.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pW0trFa5t5I

of course, most of you have probably seen it already.


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## Michael Womack (May 29, 2014)

There some US made cubes if you ask around and see if someone here in the US is selling some modded cubes but those ones will be hand made. Ya as of what most of the thread said that 99% of the cubes come from china except for V-cubes.


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## SpeedCubeReview (May 29, 2014)

Tahrbo said:


> OP, you just touched upon this in your last post, but I'd like to address it in detail.
> 
> Yes, you are in fact being more principled than is really necessary.
> 
> ...



Thank you for this very detailed post. I agree with what you are saying. I'm becoming more hooked each day and after about a week with a cube I'm picking up speed. I have a Rubiks speed cube coming in the mail (I know it's not the best and I cannot find where it's built but I like the times and the way it looks), but I'll probably break and get one of the popular speed cubes in the end.
Thank you for everyone's input. It has been very helpful.


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## Tony Fisher (May 30, 2014)

kclejeune said:


> 1. He wasn't talking about a non Chinese equivalent. He meant it's a lot more expensive than buying a well designed high quality puzzle that happens to be from china.
> 2.Name a cube that ACTUALLY looks like a knockoff that has been designed in the past 2 years. Most of it is v cube trying to raise hell in order to get some money and eliminate competition.
> 3. It sounds like you hit your own point here. We don't have any proof of working conditions in china OR Greece. I wouldn't be surprised if they had a little temper tantrum over seeing awesome "knockoff" cubes, and decided to stay in Greece.



1. I know, I was being facetious. When someone states they don't want to buy Chinese products, what's the point of people keep saying buy Chinese products? 
2. All I said was that some most certainly are knock-off. None of us know the true number though because we are not lawyers with full access to all facts, agreements, disputes etc. 
3. Mmm, temper tantrum because someone is ripping them off. How terribly unreasonable of them. I bet they are the kind of people who complain when the get burgled too.


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## Michael Womack (May 30, 2014)

I just remembered that there is one company here in America that makes Twisty puzzles and that company is called Redman & Associates and they make the Buzzle ball. Currently there not available to buy yet there going to be sold in Wal-mart stores starting in August but I have one of there pre release testing versions. http://www.buzzleball.com/


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## kcl (May 30, 2014)

Tony Fisher said:


> 1. I know, I was being facetious. When someone states they don't want to buy Chinese products, what's the point of people keep saying buy Chinese products?
> 2. All I said was that some most certainly are knock-off. None of us know the true number though because we are not lawyers with full access to all facts, agreements, disputes etc.
> 3. Mmm, temper tantrum because someone is ripping them off. How terribly unreasonable of them. I bet they are the kind of people who complain when the get burgled too.



1. Fine. 
2. Fine. 

3. Besides having edges with torpedoes, corners, and centers, name one way in which speedcubes look like v cubes.


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