# Conjugated PLLs



## Lucas Garron (Dec 13, 2009)

In a thread on the German forum, somebody posted a cool F-perm I hadn't seen:

R'U'F'RUR'U'R'FR2U'R'U'RUR'UR

This is essentially R' U' F' {T-perm} with an obvious cancellation at the end. I had never noticed that setup before, but I'm switching to it, at least for big cubes.

I know that some people use a conjugated V-perm alg, also for the F: R'U2R'U'yR'F'R2U'R'UR'FRU'F

And until everyone switched to Rowe's E, this was going around: R2UR'U'yRUR'U'RUR'U'RUR'y'RU'R2 = [R2UR'U'y: (RUR'U')3]

Does anybody else have any particularly cool PLL conjugates they like?


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## IamWEB (Dec 13, 2009)

*Reserved post to edit once I understand how cool this is*

EDIT: I think I just found my OH F perm.


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## fanwuq (Dec 13, 2009)

Lucas Garron said:


> And until everyone switched to Rowe's E, this was going around: R2UR'U'yRUR'U'RUR'U'RUR'y'RU'R2 = [R2UR'U'y: (RUR'U')3]



That's my alg! What's Rowe's E?

I'm liking your F perm, thanks!


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## deepSubDiver (Dec 13, 2009)

I was using that F and E perm for a while now, they helped my awkward fingertricks a lot 

What is that V-perm you mentioned?

\edit: Also, no conjugate but pretty cool though: r U r' U' r' F r2 U' r' U' r U r' F' U


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## retr0 (Dec 13, 2009)

Do you mean like how 
T Perm - (R U R' U') (R' F) (R2 U' R') U' (R U R' F')
J (b) Perm - (R U R' F') (R U R' U') (R' F) (R2 U' R') U'

The part at the end is just moved to the front

or

V perm - (R' U R' d') (R' F') (R2 U' R' U) (R' F R F)
F perm - (R' U2 R' d') (R' F') (R2 U' R' U) (R' F R U' F) 
U added in the first segment, and in the last, but otherwise the same.

Are those what you mean?


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## Lucas Garron (Dec 13, 2009)

fanwuq said:


> What's Rowe's E?


x'RU'R'DRUR'D'RUR'DRU'R'D'x



retr0 said:


> Are those what you mean?


That's not what I mean, although you're not too far off. See this.


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## dbax0999 (Dec 13, 2009)

RUR'URUR'F'RUR'U'R'FR2U'R'U2RU'R' for N-perm

Essentially R U R' U (J-perm) + some cancellation at the end. I think everyone already knows this one though.


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## puzzlemaster (Dec 13, 2009)

Lol new F perm


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## rowehessler (Dec 13, 2009)

Lucas Garron said:


> fanwuq said:
> 
> 
> > What's Rowe's E?
> ...


this isn't "my" E, i learned it from Erik.


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## fanwuq (Dec 13, 2009)

Lucas Garron said:


> fanwuq said:
> 
> 
> > What's Rowe's E?
> ...



Oh, I know that alg. Learned it from Erik a year or 2 ago.
Some of my COLLs, like F2RU'R'U'RdRUR'B'RU'R, are conjugates of PLLs. I guess you could say that FRU'R'U'RdRUR'B'RU'R2 is a F' conjugate of the COLL with cancellation. You can think about them either way. I've always tried to turn PLLs or other COLLs to COLLs, I've never tried to turn conjugated COLLs into PLLs. Conjugates of other PLLs to PLLs are rarely good.



IamWEB said:


> *Reserved post to edit once I understand how cool this is*
> 
> EDIT: I think I just found my OH F perm.


Try LRU2R'U'RU2L'RURURU'R'U'R2U', it's a J-perm + U perm combination with cancellations.


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## blade740 (Dec 13, 2009)

Yeah, sometimes I use conjugated PLLs instead of COLLs for a sort of "intuitive ZB" For example, R' Y perm R


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## Lucas Garron (Dec 13, 2009)

rowehessler said:


> Lucas Garron said:
> 
> 
> > fanwuq said:
> ...


Well, of course it was known before.

But it's not like people thought it was sub-1-able, until they saw your E from Worlds and started talking about it. You're responsible for making me switch, at least.


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## PEZenfuego (Dec 13, 2009)

Y permutation (do not recommend lol)

Put the base of the Y on the upper left

R U R' U (L permutation/Jb permutation) U' R U' R'


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## fanwuq (Dec 13, 2009)

blade740 said:


> Yeah, sometimes I use conjugated PLLs instead of COLLs for a sort of "intuitive ZB" For example, R' Y perm R



LOL! Comment is 2 minutes too late.


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## PatrickT (Dec 13, 2009)

Jeremy showed me this F perm a while ago. I think it's amazing how the corner orientation is preserved. I don't know where he learned it though.


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## eastamazonantidote (Dec 14, 2009)

Aren't the <R,U,L> N perms conjugated <R,U,L> J perms which are just a conjugated Niklas?

On another note, I like that F perm but I don't like it enough to switch it for my optimized optimal version.


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## rubiknewbie (Dec 14, 2009)

Definitely an option to consider since most F perms require cube rotations.


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## LNZ (Dec 14, 2009)

I now have another PLL ready to use now. I already know the T-Perm already , so I gain a F-Perm for not much extra effort.


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## Kenneth (Dec 14, 2009)

rowehessler said:


> Lucas Garron said:
> 
> 
> > fanwuq said:
> ...



I think this commutator is even better:

R' U L' D2 L U' R L' U R' D2 R U' L

But that's probably only me


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## Sin-H (Dec 14, 2009)

Lucas, I adjusted your E Perm a bit because I like inverted sexy moves 

R2 U R' y R U' R' U R U' R' U R U' R' U y' R U' R2


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## Swordsman Kirby (Dec 14, 2009)

Here's one I use from Stefan's page:



> V perm --- R' U R' d' R' F' R2 U' R' U R' F R F
> Found with ACube, don't remember how.
> 
> F perm --- R' U2 R' d' R' F' R2 U' R' U R' F R U' F
> Built from my V perm alg with setup moves (R' U R). I have seen many different V perms with the same start (R' U R U') so go ahead and try converting it to an F perm like this as well, the cancellations at start are good and maybe you can cancel something at the end, too.


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## cmhardw (Dec 14, 2009)

Lucas I am about 0.75 second faster on the F perm just by using this conjugated T perm alg! Thank you!

I also kinda like the alg Stefan posted about using the inverted sexy move for the E perm. I am a big fan now of Erik's E perm, but I'll try this one out too.

--edit--
I want to try this again at home, I practiced a bit on the cube we have at the center here and got 2.28 for a fastest single (on a somewhat tightly tuned type A). Can't wait to get home and see if I can sub-2 this at home on my good type C. Thanks Lucas, I would never have thought to do this PLL this way! I like this alg!

Chris


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## jfly (Dec 14, 2009)

PatrickT said:


> Jeremy showed me this F perm a while ago. I think it's amazing how the corner orientation is preserved. I don't know where he learned it though.



Arnaud showed me this F perm a while ago. I think it's amazing how the corner orientation is preserved. I don't know where he learned it though.


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## cmhardw (Dec 14, 2009)

Do you understand why corner orientation is preserved? Think of which sticker of which corner swaps with which sticker of the other corner. Do the setup turn at the start, the R' U' F' and see which stickers are swapped by the T perm. Now undo the setup and see if swapping those same two stickers on the corners would leave them correctly oriented with regards to the other LL pieces.

It's neat, yes, that corner orientation is preserved. Does it make sense why? This kind of thinking, about sticker cycles, is very common for BLD as well, so you can think of it like BLD cubing also.

Chris


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## PatrickT (Dec 15, 2009)

cmhardw said:


> Do you understand why corner orientation is preserved? Think of which sticker of which corner swaps with which sticker of the other corner. Do the setup turn at the start, the R' U' F' and see which stickers are swapped by the T perm. Now undo the setup and see if swapping those same two stickers on the corners would leave them correctly oriented with regards to the other LL pieces.
> 
> It's neat, yes, that corner orientation is preserved. Does it make sense why? This kind of thinking, about sticker cycles, is very common for BLD as well, so you can think of it like BLD cubing also.
> 
> Chris



Yes, tracing the sticker cycles is very interesting and useful for BLD. I was very proud of myself when during a solve, I came up with a way to switch the UFR and DFR corners as well as the UBL and DBL corners. I did B', (RUR'U')x3, B

I used to do (RUR'U')x3, (L'U'LU) x3 to permute four corners (I guess to do the same as above, I'd use an L2 set up move), until I realized that the UBR and UBL stickers were swapping back and forth with each x3 triggers. 

These types of techniques are really something cool.


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## James Ludlow (Dec 16, 2009)

M2D2M2(Yperm)M2D2M2 or M2u2M2(Yperm)M2u2M2. First swaps UF/UL, second swaps UR/UB.


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## Zubon (Dec 16, 2009)

Speaking of Erik's E-Perm, does anyone do it this way?

(R'URD') (R'U'RD) (R'U'RD') (R'URD)

This way I don't need to do a re-grip when doing the D turns.


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## gylve (Dec 16, 2009)

jamesdeanludlow said:


> M2D2M2(Yperm)M2D2M2 or M2u2M2(Yperm)M2u2M2. First swaps UF/UL, second swaps UR/UB.




Or use V-perm + a cube rotation.


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## James Ludlow (Dec 16, 2009)

gylve said:


> jamesdeanludlow said:
> 
> 
> > M2D2M2(Yperm)M2D2M2 or M2u2M2(Yperm)M2u2M2. First swaps UF/UL, second swaps UR/UB.
> ...



That is what I use for a Vperm at the moment. I'm still learning full pll.


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## JTW2007 (Dec 18, 2009)

Sin-H said:


> Lucas, I adjusted your E Perm a bit because I like inverted sexy moves
> 
> R2 U R' y R U' R' U R U' R' U R U' R' U y' R U' R2



I like that.


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## iSpinz (Dec 18, 2009)

JTW2007 said:


> Sin-H said:
> 
> 
> > Lucas, I adjusted your E Perm a bit because I like inverted sexy moves
> ...



Awesome! 15/21 PLL's for me!


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## KubeKid73 (Dec 18, 2009)

I love this thread!  I found easier F, V, E, and N (a) Perms and Headlights OLL (Which I still haven't learned yet. ) and I'm going to learn them instead.


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## deepSubDiver (Dec 18, 2009)

M D2 M (Y-Perm) M' D2 M'


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## LNZ (Dec 18, 2009)

I tried the following: B' (T-Perm) B on a solved 3x3 cube and I got a UFR to UFB corner cubie swap and a LU to RU edge cubie swap.

B X X
C X D
X X A

Swap A and B and C and D


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## KubeKid73 (Dec 18, 2009)

LNZ said:


> I tried the following: B' (T-Perm) B on a solved 3x3 cube and I got a UFR to UFB corner cubie swap and a LU to RU edge cubie swap.
> 
> B X X
> C X D
> ...



That messes up the orientation of A and B. If you want to keep the orientation, use L' D' L B (T-Perm) B' L' D L. Now I have a new N-Perm B.


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## PhillipEspinoza (Dec 18, 2009)

What about the modification of the N-perm to make a decent F-perm?

N-perm: (R' U R U') (R' F' U' F) (R U R' F R' F R U' R)

F-perm: (R' U R U') (*R2* F' U' F) *U* (R F R' F' *R2* U')


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## KubeKid73 (Dec 18, 2009)

I found a better J-Perm A, not the one that moves the end of the T-Perm to the beginning, the other J-Perm.
R D' F' (Y-Perm) F D R'.
I also found ones for the R-Perms, but the setup moves are really long, so I'm not sure how effective it would be to learn them instead.
R- Perm A:
B' D' B D L' D L (Y-Perm) L' D' L D' B' D B
B:
F' D' F D' L' D L (Y-Perm) L' D' L D F' D F


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## fanwuq (Dec 20, 2009)

PhillipEspinoza said:


> What about the modification of the N-perm to make a decent F-perm?
> 
> N-perm: (R' U R U') (R' F' U' F) (R U R' F R' F R U' R)
> 
> F-perm: (R' U R U') (*R2* F' U' F) *U* (R F R' F' *R2* U')



That's interesting. Was the alg really discovered that way? (I thought that F perm came before that N perm?)


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## Neo63 (Dec 20, 2009)

I think I just found my F perm


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## adimare (Jan 14, 2010)

Yesterday I came up with this J perm conjugate for the N perm.

R U R' U R U R' F' R U R' U' R' F R2 U' R' U2 R U' R'

It's just:

R U R' U (J perm) U' R U' R'

A bit long, but it flows nicely.

Edit: self :fp, I just saw dbax0999's post


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