# ZBLL algs?



## guitardude7241 (Nov 9, 2009)

this is now the zbf2l/zbll thread. feel free to ask questions, algs will be on this post soon.


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## JLarsen (Nov 9, 2009)

I don't believe he put them all anywhere yet. Also, don't make a thread for questions for specific people, PM them instead.


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## guitardude7241 (Nov 9, 2009)

Sn3kyPandaMan said:


> I don't believe he put them all anywhere yet. Also, don't make a thread for questions for specific people, PM them instead.



I tried, I can't.


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## Edward (Nov 9, 2009)

guitardude7241 said:


> Sn3kyPandaMan said:
> 
> 
> > I don't believe he put them all anywhere yet. Also, don't make a thread for questions for specific people, PM them instead.
> ...



Explain please.


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## guitardude7241 (Nov 9, 2009)

Edward said:


> guitardude7241 said:
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> > Sn3kyPandaMan said:
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Find a post by him, and click on his user name, then try to pm him. You can't.


iSpinz said:


> guitardude7241 said:
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> > Edward said:
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:fp at you. you should've tried first, don't correct me when you can't even do things yourself.


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## JLarsen (Nov 9, 2009)

guitardude7241 said:


> Edward said:
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Okay, but I would have specified that in my post. I also would have just asked him in a reply to one of his posts, but oh well.


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## Edward (Nov 9, 2009)

Oh ok. I don't know why, maybe he doesn't like PM's, because I bet there were 70 people a day asking for ZBLL algs.


Get the hint?


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## iSpinz (Nov 9, 2009)

guitardude7241 said:


> Edward said:
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Ugh...:fp userCP>>Send New Message>> Recipient(s) Usernames>> Cubes=life


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## JLarsen (Nov 9, 2009)

Edward said:


> Oh ok. I don't know why, maybe he doesn't like PM's, because I bet there were 70 people a day asking for ZBLL algs.



I can't imagine the amount of spam he got from people who are never going to even learn zbll.


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## Cyrus C. (Nov 9, 2009)

You could've also used the One Answer Question thread.

I don't think there is any place with a collection of ZBLL algorithms... maybe YOU could make one!


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## guitardude7241 (Nov 9, 2009)

Edward said:


> Oh ok. I don't know why, maybe he doesn't like PM's, because I bet there were 70 people a day asking for ZBLL algs.
> 
> 
> Get the hint?



haha
I just wanted to look over them, perhaps learn one or two a day and get ZBLL in a year.


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## JLarsen (Nov 9, 2009)

iSpinz said:


> guitardude7241 said:
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> 1. Cubes=Life has chosen not to receive private messages or may not be allowed to receive private messages. Therefore you may not send your message to him/her.



Cubes=Life cannot receive pms period.


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## 4Chan (Nov 9, 2009)

Ah, yes, I've only uploaded one set.

http://www.speedsolving.com/forum/showpost.php?p=260802&postcount=46

I got a bunch of algorithms from other various places on the internet. i.e. the 2GLLs from Chris' site, Dan's old site, and the T set from Jason's site.

Generating and selecting the algorithms was a pain and tooks weeks, and because of my labor, I'm only sharing as much as i took from other sites. (One set.)

Oh and EDIT: They're on the second page of my photo bucket.
http://s211.photobucket.com/albums/bb175/ughifusdf/?start=20
The notation is a bit weird, and the handwriting is illegible in some places.
In my notebook is the only place where I have the algorithms, so if you have questions about the cases, I can answer them in this thread.


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## guitardude7241 (Nov 9, 2009)

Cubes=Life said:


> Ah, yes, I've only uploaded one set.
> 
> http://www.speedsolving.com/forum/showpost.php?p=260802&postcount=46
> 
> ...



How do you generate every case? cube explorer is probably the way you do so, but i'm talking about how do you know every single case that'll come up.


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## Cyrus C. (Nov 9, 2009)

guitardude7241 said:


> Cubes=Life said:
> 
> 
> > Ah, yes, I've only uploaded one set.
> ...



Isn't it just COLL's x PLL's ?


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## 4Chan (Nov 9, 2009)

^Cyrus is right.

Ummm, I don't use Jason/Dan's way of recognition.
I prefer to AUF the COLL by aligning the UFR corner and looking at the edge cycle.

It's starting to get faster for me.
My problem isnt recognition, but rather recall. >.<

Oh, I know the cases from experience from generating hundreds of algs.
There are only 12 possible Edge cycle cases for each COLL.
If the coll has an even number of edge cycles, then i know how to generate that case.

Also, I know the weird mirroring tendencies of the algs, also from experience and practice.


Lastly, I once got a PM which pissed me off greatly, and so, no moar PMs.


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## guitardude7241 (Nov 9, 2009)

Cubes=Life said:


> ^Cyrus is right.
> 
> Ummm, I don't use Jason/Dan's way of recognition.
> I prefer to AUF the COLL by aligning the UFR corner and looking at the edge cycle.
> ...



thank you very much. i'll see about generating a few cases, and i could be willing to finish generating more.


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## 4Chan (Nov 9, 2009)

All-righty~

Um, if you ever have a question about ZBLL, just bump up a thread with ZB in the title, and I'll be sure to read it. 

I might not be super willing to share all my algs, but I can share help and advice easily.


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## dbeyer (Nov 9, 2009)

I made the comment earlier. Is it possible to rather optimize the ZBLL system by similarities in algorithms. Right now, we seem to be compiling the 'fastest' system of algorithms rather than the rather than an organized system.

What I mean is that something like Joel's page for OLLs is organized. Not by shapes, permutations, or similarities in pictures of orientations. Its categorized by move types. Much like the BH method that Chris and I use for blindfolded cubing.

Just like the sune, and double sune, and deep sune are all so closely related. Could it be possible to simplify the method by taking a different point of view on the system?

A lot of algorithms in OLL can be solved just by taking a c/e pair out and re-inserting.

RUR'U R'FRF' RU2R'
RU2R' R'FRF' RU2R'
RUR'U' R'FRF'
F RUR'U' F'

Its all so closely related by move type, rather than by similarities of apperance or case recognition.

Just like my J perm and my V perm are very similar.
Just food for thought. Categorizing the BH method allowed Chris and I to learn and teach others about our blindfolded method so that they had a solid understanding.

A lot more is going on in a ZBLL system than a BH system. Yet the case counts are both extraordinarily high.

378 for corners;
440 for edges;
440 for x-centers;
440 for t-centers;
506 for wings;

These are just for permutations. There are other tricks that can be used. Also another 132 center cases that are neglible in a non-supercube scenario. When we first tried to compile the system case for case. It was astounding, it was tiresome and tedious. It seemed almost impossible. We knew that there had to be a better way. Finally we compiled every single optimal corner case. Then I started looking at them, I started to notice move counts. Wait why are all of the cases with URB and DBR higher? What wait a second these cases aren't commutators are they? Questions started popping into my head. We then realized that the move counts brought about categorization to the system. Which made learning the system far simpler.

Somebody tried recently compiling the OLL system in a grid matrix.
Edge orientation cases x Corner Orientations cases
Beautiful organization method. Bad method for learning 57 algorithms. Much less taking on a system the scale of ZBLL or BH.

Those taking the system seriously, consider this different view of learning your system.


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## 4Chan (Nov 9, 2009)

Ahhhh yess, you're most definitely right.

I also made mental note of similar turns when I memorized ZBLL.
I estimate around 8-10 algorithms with the same basic "concept" so to speak.
Using the same basic turns with different turns leading up to and ending with.

But, I have my own categorization, and I've already memorized my cases with my own idiosyncrasies. So it's too late for me.


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## guitardude7241 (Nov 9, 2009)

well, instead of generating zbll algs(which is around 5/12 of one look last layer), i've decided to venture some into olll. if i follow through with this, it'll take a year, at best. i've not started memorizing algorithms yet, but for oll #1, i believe that it takes 48 algorithms for that oll.


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## 4Chan (Nov 9, 2009)

OLL #1?

Also, hehe, one look last layer is like, 57 sets, and ZBLL is only 7 sets.
So it's like, 7/57, or 12%?


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## guitardude7241 (Nov 9, 2009)

oh poo, i miscalculated. so how many different cases are there in olll? counting mirrors/inverses. do you know? i know there's 1212 different configurations.


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## 4Chan (Nov 9, 2009)

Hmmm, I have no idea, but if I had to guess...
I'd say around 4080. However, this number might be completely off.

I do recall the 1211 number of algorithms to solve one look last layer (including mirrors and inverses), but I don't really know. ):


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## dbeyer (Nov 9, 2009)

I dunno I've just been thinking about cases lately on x-centers that I'm pronouncing to be 10 moves STM. I try to view x-centers as extentions of the corners. They have the same letter system, just like t-centers have the same lettering system as edges. The cases that involve two or more stickers from a "corner". So the URB corner, a cycle such as Urb -> Rbu -> Bur
Is there a nine move solution? Or an 8? One that just would blow my mind?

I dunno ... I hope so, but I've yet to find it. And I can't prove or disprove these unfamiliar cases, but I can solve them in ten moves quickly though, hehe.


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## irontwig (Nov 9, 2009)

Cyrus C. said:


> You could've also used the One Answer Question thread.
> 
> I don't think there is any place with a collection of ZBLL algorithms... maybe YOU could make one!



http://lar5.com/cube/270/index.html


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## guitardude7241 (Nov 11, 2009)

oh dear skilledatmemorizationsir, could you please get together what zbll you got off the web?


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## 4Chan (Nov 11, 2009)

Lol, Irontwig linked to a site which links to bernard helmstetters list. 
The organization of that list is confusing and the font is annoying as hell.

Umm, get together?
I think I already said the sites I got them from.
T set from Jason Baum's site.
2GLL U subset from Chris Hardwick's part of speedcubing.
2GLL L subset from Dan Harris' old site.


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## guitardude7241 (Nov 11, 2009)

Cubes=Life said:


> Lol, Irontwig linked to a site which links to bernard helmstetters list.
> The organization of that list is confusing and the font is annoying as hell.
> 
> Umm, get together?
> ...



dan harris' site is?


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## cmhardw (Nov 11, 2009)

guitardude7241 said:


> dan harris' site is?



Here is a link


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## guitardude7241 (Nov 11, 2009)

cmhardw said:


> guitardude7241 said:
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> > dan harris' site is?
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i got owned.


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## cmhardw (Nov 11, 2009)

guitardude7241 said:


> cmhardw said:
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Not trying to be mean or anything, but Dan *is* super famous btw 

Chris


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## Cride5 (Nov 11, 2009)

Or you could just use the wiki


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## guitardude7241 (Nov 11, 2009)

Cride5 said:


> Or you could just use the wiki



or you could just use the scientific method


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## rubiknewbie (Nov 11, 2009)

cmhardw said:


> guitardude7241 said:
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I read his book and use many of his OLL/PLL algorithms .


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## guitardude7241 (Nov 13, 2009)

rubiknewbie said:


> cmhardw said:
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> > guitardude7241 said:
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some of them aren't too good.


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## guitardude7241 (Nov 15, 2009)

How about we just make this the zbf2l/zbll thread?


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## 4Chan (Nov 15, 2009)

Yus.

Thread for discussion + questions for ZBLL/ZBF2L.


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## eastamazonantidote (Nov 15, 2009)

Could we get a collection of ways to recognize the ZBLL cases? Ways I know of:

1. The Harris/Baum method: compare the UF and UR edges to the UFR corner sticker. Very easy for most cases, difficult on some others, and tricky to get it to work for the H, Pi, Sune, and Anti-Sune cases.

2. The intuitive way: place the UFR corner in it's correct position (not AUF, but AdL [Adjust d Layers]), then recognize the edge permutation off of that. Easy method for recognition but it may take slightly longer because of the AdL.

Any other methods people know of?

Also, correct me if I'm wrong anywhere here.


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## Tim Major (Nov 18, 2009)

Cubes=Life said:


> Yus.
> 
> Thread for discussion + questions for ZBLL/ZBF2L.



Okay, this isn't really ZB, but the opposite. Instead of focusing on edges orienting in ZBf2l, we use corners. Like winter variation, but all f2l cases. The there is only 3 OLLs to learn all cases for, plus just knowing pll. Any thoughts? Also, should I make a new thread with this?


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## 4Chan (Nov 18, 2009)

Ah, ZB_FTW, I don't think I've heard of that variation. 0:

Also, Eastamazonanitdote, for around 10 or so cases, I can identify them with blocks of color, because they form distinctive blocks. These cases are in the minority, but you can, "in theory" recognize with blocks. It would be rather difficult and would take up a lot more memory than the intuitive way.


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## Tim Major (Nov 18, 2009)

Cubes=Life said:


> Ah, ZB_FTW, I don't think I've heard of that variation. 0:
> 
> Also, Eastamazonanitdote, for around 10 or so cases, I can identify them with blocks of color, because they form distinctive blocks. These cases are in the minority, but you can, "in theory" recognize with blocks. It would be rather difficult and would take up a lot more memory than the intuitive way.



Should I make a new thread, because I think it would require fewer algorithms, though they are quite fast cases? Plus, Winter Variation would be similar to VHf2l (correct me if I'm wrong) with only 27 algorithms, plus mirrors. The OLLs used with all corners oriented, are very fast, and easy to learn. Plus you can make inverses for all cases, taking the amount of algs way down. One problem is, I don't know how to make the cube pictures, as I would make a site with all the algos. I could even use some ZBf2ls for this, as they affect corners. Recog would be rather easy.

Is this a new method?


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## 4Chan (Nov 18, 2009)

Kinda reminds me of Summer Variation, now that I think about it.

http://www.speedsolving.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8820


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## guitardude7241 (Nov 30, 2009)

oh, mr. zb dude..

uhh, how do you get all the algs for one set of zbll? isn't it the subset, then the permutation of the corners, and all permutations of the edges?

would there be 12 different edge permutations?

would there be 9 different corner permutations?


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## 4Chan (Nov 30, 2009)

Haha, MisterZB is my name on cubemania. 

Ah, i always believed there were 6 different corner permutations.
(except in H set)

I used to know why, but I forgot.

Oh and yes, 12 edge permutations per subset.


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## miniGOINGS (Nov 30, 2009)

There are 6 different corner permutations.
-All permuted
-Front two switched
-Right two switched
-Back two switched
-Left two switched
-Two diagonally switched


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## guitardude7241 (Nov 30, 2009)

miniGOINGS said:


> There are 6 different corner permutations.
> -All permuted
> -Front two switched
> -Right two switched
> ...



lets call BL corner 1, BR 2, FL 3, and FR 4

1-2 means 1 and 2 are swapped

correct
1-2
1-3
1-4
2-3
2-4
3-4
1-2; 3-4
1-3; 2-4

there's 9, i believe.


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## Tim Major (Nov 30, 2009)

Cubes=Life said:


> Kinda reminds me of Summer Variation, now that I think about it.
> 
> http://www.speedsolving.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8820



Considering that's not really the same, should I make a new thread? I probably won't learn it, though once I've finished OLL, I'll learn the rest of WV (about 23 algs) plus the R U set of algs (about 26) and maybe, _*maybe*_ then I'll learn the rest. Also, I have a question for you, how do you work out how many algs for these cases? I used to think there would be 22 algs for each set of the ll algs, but according to you, that doesn't work.

I need to work out

OLL solved :22 (1 being solved)
No edges flipped correctly: 1 alg already learned.
2 edges flipped in H pattern: 2 algs already learned.
And 2 edges flipped with other pattern: 1 alg already learned. 

I know full PLL, so the first set is out of the way, how many after that please? Or would I have to manually count?


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## 4Chan (Nov 30, 2009)

Some of those cases you listed are analogous.
They're the same.

EDIT: That was in reply to guitardude.


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## miniGOINGS (Nov 30, 2009)

guitardude7241 said:


> lets call BL corner 1, BR 2, FL 3, and FR 4
> 
> 1-2 means 1 and 2 are swapped
> 
> ...



1-3; 2-4 = correct
1-3 = 2-4 = 1-2; 3-4

kthnxbai


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## guitardude7241 (Nov 30, 2009)

miniGOINGS said:


> guitardude7241 said:
> 
> 
> > lets call BL corner 1, BR 2, FL 3, and FR 4
> ...



i don't get how it's correct, both of them are swapped.
i understand that the 1-3; 2-4 is diagonal switched corners.


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## 4Chan (Nov 30, 2009)

It just is.
Thats like a U2 move does the same effect.

EDIT: Sorry ZB_FTW!!!
I'm not sure about that method. D:
Ummm, yeah, i think if you make a thread, a puzzle theorist might come along and offer better advice than I can give.


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## miniGOINGS (Nov 30, 2009)

guitardude7241 said:


> miniGOINGS said:
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It means that you just have to do U2 at the end of the ZBLL alg.


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## guitardude7241 (Nov 30, 2009)

Cubes=Life said:


> It just is.
> Thats like a U2 move does the same effect.
> 
> EDIT: Sorry ZB_FTW!!!
> ...



i don't get it, but i'll keep that in mind. so there's 84 different cases for each subset?


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## 4Chan (Nov 30, 2009)

Seventy two.

Unless its the H set.


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## guitardude7241 (Nov 30, 2009)

Cubes=Life said:


> Seventy two.
> 
> Unless its the H set.



please explain how there's only 72, not 84.

and about the h set.


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## miniGOINGS (Nov 30, 2009)

guitardude7241 said:


> Cubes=Life said:
> 
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> > Seventy two.
> ...



Or you could just use the COLL + Edge Cycle recognition system.


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## 4Chan (Nov 30, 2009)

Ah, okay.

Here is the list of 40 COLLs.
http://www.cubezone.be/coll.html

Each COLL case has 12 edge permutations.
Depending of the corners, being an even or odd cycle, the edges will also have a corresponding even or odd edge cycle.

I forgot why H set has so few.
I used to know, but I forgot.

EDIT: I forgot to add, there are 7 sets of COLL.
Each set has 6 subsets. (Except H)

So, 6x12=72.


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## miniGOINGS (Nov 30, 2009)

Cubes=Life said:


> Ah, okay.
> 
> Here is the list of 40 COLLs.
> http://www.cubezone.be/coll.html
> ...



Because two of the H COLL's are mirrorable (by doing U2) so the number of those cases are cut in half.


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## 4Chan (Nov 30, 2009)

Haha, thats right!
Thats why.

+1 to you.


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## miniGOINGS (Nov 30, 2009)

Cubes=Life said:


> Haha, thats right!
> Thats why.
> 
> +1 to you.



Half of the H COLL cases have less Edge Cycles, which means that H is 8 + 8 + 12 + 12 = 40 instead of the standard 72.


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## guitardude7241 (Nov 30, 2009)

i'd have no clue how to generate algs, which is what i want to do. dern. =/


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## Davepencilguin (Nov 30, 2009)

Question for Cubes=Life:
In your opinion, what's the order of difficulty of the sets?


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## 4Chan (Nov 30, 2009)

Hmmm, I use "basic ZBLL" which uses mirrors.
After I finish ZBF2L, ill learn the rest.

If you're going to use mirrors like me, then:
H, T, U, Pi, L, Sune/Antisune


If you're going to learn ALL 494 cases at once:
Do H, and then T, and then whatever order you want.

It took me around 3 and a half months rushing it.
I don't advise rushing the cases, but take a comfortable pace.
If you get frustrated, use the frustration to motivate you.
Make up cheesy mantras about concentration and recite them to keep your diligence. (Worked for me, haha)


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## Davepencilguin (Nov 30, 2009)

aye aye, captain!
The plan is to alternate the hard and easy sets. It'll keep me motivated in the way that after a harder set, I'll have an easier one to look forward to.


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## 4Chan (Nov 30, 2009)

Again, good luck! 

Also, since you're in florida, are you going to belleview 2010?
Hopefully I can go. (I'm in georgia)


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## Davepencilguin (Nov 30, 2009)

I was unaware there was a yearly competition so close 
Having drove 12+ hours to Austin, TX a few weeks ago, I'm more than willing to drive within my own state.


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## 4Chan (Nov 30, 2009)

I'm not sure if it's official yet, but the organizer is trying to get someone to come delegate.

He's even willing to pay them D:


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## V-te (Nov 30, 2009)

Hey Cubes, With your memo system, how long do you think it would take you to memo all LL cases? I mean you managed to virtually memo 1/3 of them already. Why not go for it all?


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## 4Chan (Nov 30, 2009)

Hehe, I actually only know approximately 8.75 percent of all LL cases. xD
Because ZBLL is roughly 12.28 percent of all LL cases, and I only know around 65-70 percent of those cases. 

It is... possible...
But I wouldn't do it. o_o
ZBLL was tiringggg. ~_~


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## V-te (Nov 30, 2009)

What about your sig?


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## 4Chan (Nov 30, 2009)

Ah!
Yes!
You're right!

Hmmm, it would be very hypocritical of me to be complacent with just ZBLL.
Hmmm..... I... am not sure.
1LLL is errr...wayyy harder than ZBLL. o_o

Hmmmm....
We will see.... we will see.

EDIT: With partial edge control, we can avoid 8 sets.
Having already learned 7 sets, there are only 41 sets of 1LLL which have to be learned.

With one subset a day, I can learn one set per week.
It would take me around a year to learn 1LLL.

But it takes me 2 months to become fluent in a subset.
Add in a few more variables, and if it's linear... and I don't go insane.... it would take 2-4+ years. 
Possible, but.... I lack incentive.


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## V-te (Nov 30, 2009)

Cubes=Life said:


> Ah!
> Yes!
> You're right!
> 
> ...



Think of it the way you did with ZBLL. If you memo an alg, you can have it's inverse and mirror, so that would reduce the number of algs significantly... also, look at the benefits: If you do memorize them all and master them... think of the times....a sub 10 average always.....

Also, if it took you 3.5 months to memo roughly 494 algs, then it should take you 10.1 months to memo rougly all LL cases (a year if you take your time). 

So if you start now, you know PLLs + ZBLLs so about....(est) 500 cases? and if there is 1212 LL algs... then you basically know half so the time would be less... right?
EDIT:
Lol. Beat me to it. But it can be possible. I give it 2 years to be mastered. 1 to memo, another to became fluent.


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## 4Chan (Nov 30, 2009)

Haha, V-te, I'll think about it.
This is beyond what anyone has ever even considered.
I can't think of anyone who even proposed to memorize 1LLL. xD


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## V-te (Nov 30, 2009)

Cubes=Life said:


> Haha, V-te, I'll think about it.
> This is beyond what anyone has ever even considered.
> I can't think of anyone who even proposed to memorize 1LLL. xD



That's because no one thought that ZBLL could be known in such a short amount of time. Now that we know, "Let's push the limits!"


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## Tim Major (Nov 30, 2009)

V-te said:


> Cubes=Life said:
> 
> 
> > Ah!
> ...



Ever heard of recognition? You should try it sometime. Actually. Maybe that wouldn't be as bad as recall. He has some system, that makes it harder to recall, but easier to memo algs. Give him 2 years, and maybe he'd have it by then.


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## 4Chan (Nov 30, 2009)

Lol, I already have a recognition system.

You're right, the recall would be.... ridiculous...
The recall would be the hardest part.

EDIT: I'm not saying that I'm doing this. I'm just thinking about it.


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## V-te (Nov 30, 2009)

Cubes=Life said:


> Lol, I already have a recognition system.



Thanks Cubes. Lol.
@ ZB_FTW The secret to anything is....

<whisper> practice </whisper>


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