# Timing Equipment - New Ideas



## Tyson (Aug 19, 2012)

I wanted to start a thread for people to start brainstorming constructions for a WCA timer.

I know there's a lot of fancy things we could do. We could do things like having the timer measure the inspection time, and other such fancy things. This thread is not about that. The question I have is the following:

How do we design a timer that fulfills the core basic functionality required for WCA timing, and how can we produce one in the quantities to support WCA events around the world?


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## Ickathu (Aug 19, 2012)

...What's wrong with speedstack timers?


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## Tyson (Aug 19, 2012)

The Gen2 timer is no longer supported or available.


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## ThomasJE (Aug 19, 2012)

Ickathu said:


> ...What's wrong with speedstack timers?



Gen 2's aren't being made anymore, and paying a higher price for what some would say a worse timer isn't worth it.

Anyway, my ideas:
Up to 60 minute times (so can be used for big BLD/MBLD)
Inspection time
Sound bleeps (for 8/12 secs in inspection, and when 60 mins is up for MBLD)
3.5mm audio jacks (2.5 are rarer)

And there's also options for a cheaper display that could be made. I wouldn't mind doing a general aesthetic look on Google Sketchup, so we generally know what we want.

And an official WCA store would also be cool.


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## drewsopchak (Aug 19, 2012)

ThomasJE said:


> And an official WCA store would also be cool.


Please elaborate.


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## ThomasJE (Aug 19, 2012)

drewsopchak said:


> Please elaborate.



A place where you can buy the new timers, displays, and then maybe other merchandise. This also could be another way to bring in funding.


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## mdolszak (Aug 19, 2012)

To clarify, this thread is about the WCA creating its own timer instead of using SpeedStack timers?


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## Rubiksboy1 (Aug 19, 2012)

mdolszak said:


> To clarify, this thread is about the WCA creating its own timer instead of using SpeedStack timers?



This could be a good idea; I always thought that it was odd that we borrowed our timers from another hobby, speedstacking, instead of creating ones specially tailored for cubing.


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## Mikel (Aug 19, 2012)

Rubiksboy1 said:


> This could be a good idea; I always thought that it was odd that we borrowed our timers from another hobby, speedstacking, instead of creating ones specially tailored for cubing.



You may have thought it was odd, but Speedstacks was already manufacturing them. There are a lot of costs and hassles with creating our own rather than paying someone for them.


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## Stefan (Aug 19, 2012)

Tyson said:


> How do we design a timer that fulfills the core basic functionality required for WCA timing, and how can we produce one in the quantities to support WCA events around the world?



I'd start by asking people who already do this kind of stuff. Some ideas:

- Speed Stacks (maybe we could still convince them to make timers like we want them (what's the status there?))
- QJ (already mass-produce timers, newest comes with port but I don't know about displays)
- https://www.facebook.com/opencubeware (already somewhat mass-produce boxes that go between SpeedStacks timer and display for automatic score recording, working on display)
- If I remember correctly, some Asian competition organizers built their own $20 displays a while back. Maybe they could do the rest as well.


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## cityzach (Aug 19, 2012)

Couldn't we use v1 timers? They don't have the data port but it doesn't really matter...


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## Stefan (Aug 19, 2012)

cityzach said:


> Couldn't we use v1 timers? They don't have the data port but it doesn't really matter...



1. They do have a data port.
2. They're almost impossible to get these days.

And here are a few posts about the Asian displays I mentioned earlier:
http://worldcubeassociation.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=5109#p5109


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## qqwref (Aug 19, 2012)

I really think the best course of action here would be to talk to some Chinese factories (QJ for instance). If anyone can mass-produce decent timers, they can, and a lot of those companies already understand the cubing community somewhat and would be willing to specifically make a timer for us. It would also be awesome if we could get that same company to make reasonably cheap displays.

IMO the minimum requirements are:
- must have data port (of typical stackmat size)
- two-hand style start and stop
- time to a .01 resolution, with all times possible, and the ability to time up to at least 10 minutes
- functions well (hard to reset by accident, only registers hands that are touching, unlikely to break, easy to replace battery)


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## Kirjava (Aug 19, 2012)

100 Hz plz


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## Meep (Aug 19, 2012)

Stefan said:


> 1. They do have a data port.
> 2. They're almost impossible to get these days.
> 
> And here are a few posts about the Asian displays I mentioned earlier:
> http://worldcubeassociation.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=5109#p5109



I was told by Turbo (Sittinon Sukhaya) that they were much more than $20 (On the order of $100 IIRC).

Locally, 7-segment displays that big cost $5 each, so the digits alone would be approximately $25.


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## Ickathu (Aug 19, 2012)

Stefan said:


> 1. They do have a data port.
> 2. They're almost impossible to get these days.
> 
> And here are a few posts about the Asian displays I mentioned earlier:
> http://worldcubeassociation.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=5109#p5109



The v1s don't have data ports. At least, the ones that I have owned don't. You also can't save times with them.


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## Stefan (Aug 19, 2012)

Meep said:


> Locally, 7-segment displays that big cost $5 each, so the digits alone would be approximately $25.



How big are they exactly? I don't have one I could measure. Here's 2.3 inch for $1.55 (or less):
http://www.futurlec.com/LED/7SR23011BSpr.shtml



Ickathu said:


> The v1s don't have data ports.


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## cityzach (Aug 19, 2012)

Stefan said:


> 1. They do have a data port.
> 2. They're almost impossible to get these days.



I was talking about these: http://www.e3cubestore.com/speedstacks-timer.html
They don't have data ports but they are very easy to get.


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## Meep (Aug 20, 2012)

Stefan said:


> How big are they exactly? I don't have one I could measure. Here's 2.3 inch for $1.55 (or less):
> http://www.futurlec.com/LED/7SR23011BSpr.shtml



Ah, hand-measuring a display, 2.3" looks about right. I must have been looking at 3" ones at the store (Or they marked up the prices a lot).

Also, this might be useful:
http://hackvalue.de/hv_atmel_stackmat


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## mrpotatoman14 (Aug 20, 2012)

http://www.everbuying.com/product180539.html
I realize that some people don't like QJ timers, personally I have no problems with them.


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## Stefan (Aug 20, 2012)

More images for the new QJ timers: apparently they don't have their own displays, as they show their timer with a Speed Stacks StackPod.

http://www.qjtoys.com/cn/Product_View.asp?ID=861
http://www.qjtoys.com/cn/Product_View.asp?ID=862


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## cubernya (Aug 20, 2012)

My thought as per the design itself:
Similar shape to speedstacks timer
Display on timer will be width of middle section (6 digits to time up to 59:59.99)
Underneath the main display will be a display for inspection time
To the left of that will be a button to start inspection (will trigger countdown and make a "beep")
To the right of the inspection display will be the speaker (will beep at start of inspection, 8s, 12s, 15s (beep twice), 17s (beep thrice), and end of solve)
On the front of the timer will be the power and reset buttons, to avoid accidentally resetting the timer
On the right of the timer will be the data port

Minimum requirements for the timer (IMO)
data port
accurate to 0.01
no gaps
power and reset buttons out of accidental "reach"
starts on release, stops on touch (both on 2 hands)


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## mrpotatoman14 (Aug 20, 2012)

theZcuber said:


> starts on release, stops on touch (both on 2 hands)


What about for OH? I know that a lot of people start with one hand on and one hand off


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## Stefan (Aug 20, 2012)

theZcuber said:


> Underneath the main display will be a display for inspection time
> To the left of that will be a button to start inspection (will trigger countdown and make a "beep")
> To the right of the inspection display will be the speaker (will beep at start of inspection, 8s, 12s, 15s (beep twice), 17s (beep thrice), and end of solve)



Ahem...



Tyson said:


> We could do things like having the timer measure the inspection time, and other such fancy things. *This thread is not about that.*


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## Vincents (Aug 20, 2012)

I always felt we should have the capability to plug into any common tablet display and use it as our display device. Jeremy and a few others have tried this with limited results, but I think it could be done. 

Others:
- The Gen 1 design is very nice. Maybe slightly more "obvious" pads so BLD people KNOW they're hitting the pad. The reset button on the side is a brilliant idea.
- Accuracy to 0.01 seconds (preferably 0.001 seconds).
- Autoshutoff at 1 hour, if possible.
- Jeremy had another idea where we could hook up smartphones to the timers and submit times that way. Don't know how far he got on this.
- Timer should be able to take some abuse. If timer is separate from mat, timer should attach more securely to mat (more like Gen 2, not like Pro). On the older timers, the sensor will go off if you hover your hand a centimeter or two above the pad. This is not okay.
- I would prefer not to have a countdown in the timer (or if it is built in, have the ability to turn it off). Some people start before 15 seconds are up.
-


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## TiLiMayor (Aug 20, 2012)

As Stefan pointed out, the live scoring with a tool like open cube ware should be a priority 'accessory' as well, as a compatible display, which is obviously the first thing after the timer itself. There are cubing communities around the world and not all of them have an easy access for speedstacks equipment besides the timers, so the opportunity to build them locally, as showcased by Thailand cubers some time ago, must be something to consider. Of course not everyone is in position to build one from scratch, but as chances are there might be someone with knowledge in electronic, with a set of guidelines and design standard there would be no trouble for compatible displays..


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## Stefan (Sep 13, 2012)

Meep said:


> Locally, 7-segment displays that big cost $5 each, so the digits alone would be approximately $25.



A few weeks in my spam folder and a few more emails back and forth and I was finally told how much these cost:
http://www.arkled.net/product/23-inch-single-digit-numeric-display.html

They have several versions, when you buy 1000 they cost:


> SM4123011E ultra red USD*0.825*/PC expensive but we recommend because of best quality and intensity.
> SM4123011N ultra red USD*0.587*/PC small-LED-CHIP inside, its intensity is only one third of SM4123011E, and its stability and reliability is not as good as that of SM4123011E too.
> SM4123011E ultra yellow USD*0.812*/PC expensive but we recommend because of best quality and intensity.



No idea what quality your local ones are or what SpeedStacks uses, but I assume they're not better than the above good ones, so that would be about $4 for the five digits.


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## Meep (Sep 13, 2012)

Stefan said:


> A few weeks in my spam folder and a few more emails back and forth and I was finally told how much these cost:
> http://www.arkled.net/product/23-inch-single-digit-numeric-display.html
> 
> They have several versions, when you buy 1000 they cost:
> ...



Yeah they likely ordered much less than 1000, and marked it up quite a bit (it's a fairly small store).


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## Stefan (Sep 13, 2012)

Yeah, would be normal. And I don't really care, what I'm interested in is the cheap high number price, since if we ever get "our own" displays, we'll surely easily want that many or more. Also, while huge competitions benefit from very large displays, for many smaller competitions probably a smaller display would suffice, lowering the price further.


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## ThomasJE (Sep 15, 2012)

Stefan said:


> A few weeks in my spam folder and a few more emails back and forth and I was finally told how much these cost:
> http://www.arkled.net/product/23-inch-single-digit-numeric-display.html
> 
> They have several versions, when you buy 1000 they cost:
> ...



What about the smaller digits at the back of the timer? That may add, say $2 to the price. Another $4 for the casing and you've got a $10 display.

I'm also designing a possible design on Google Sketchup, I'll get that finished and up ASAP.

EDIT: Wouldn't two of the digits need a second dot, so we could get a colon for minutes? Should be the 2nd and 4th digits I think.
EDIT 2: No, 2 would just have to be upside down.

EDIT 3: Couldn't we just use QJ Gen3 timers? (Obviously, there would need to be tests etc.)

That's a lot of edits...


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## ThomasJE (Oct 6, 2012)

I've nearly finished a design on Google Sketchup for this timer and display. The link to download is here:
http://sketchup.google.com/3dwarehouse/details?mid=76531681aa79cc7a3d0a0aade051ee6f
Feel free to play around with it and let me know what you think and anything you think should be changed.


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## Hunter (Oct 6, 2012)

That is interesting. I think though for the people without SketchUp they cant really see it. Possibly export some 2d images?


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## ThomasJE (Oct 6, 2012)

Hunter said:


> That is interesting. I think though for the people without SketchUp they cant really see it. Possibly export some 2d images?



There is a Google Sketchup viewer that you can download; it's here. I'll also get some pictures up as well.


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## ThomasJE (Oct 6, 2012)

Link for pictures is here:
https://docs.google.com/folder/d/0B4kZ4FB24GmnbGxKdjdpSEJ6eGM/edit


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## StachuK1992 (Oct 6, 2012)

So...it's a knockoff SpeedStacks timer?


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## ThomasJE (Oct 6, 2012)

StachuK1992 said:


> So...it's a knockoff SpeedStacks timer?



You could say that... but if you make something simular to something already made, but with different functions, it will always be called a knockoff.

I've just finished the display, so I'll update the Sketchup file and add more pictures.


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## ducttapecuber (Oct 6, 2012)

I like it. It has six digits, perfect for BLD and multi BLD. Its nice and simplistic, which is all we need.


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## ThomasJE (Oct 6, 2012)

ducttapecuber said:


> I like it. It has six digits, perfect for BLD and multi BLD. Its nice and simplistic, which is all we need.



It actually has five. I have been thinking about adding a sixth, should I?


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## Stefan (Oct 6, 2012)

ducttapecuber said:


> I like it. It has six digits, perfect for BLD and multi BLD. Its nice and simplistic, which is all we need.



Where do you see six? I count five.


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## ducttapecuber (Oct 6, 2012)

Stefan said:


> Where do you see six? I count five.



Sorry, apparently I though I saw six. Six digits would be a good idea, however it would be harder and more expensive to produce.


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## ThomasJE (Oct 6, 2012)

ducttapecuber said:


> Sorry, apparently I though I saw six. Six digits would be a good idea, however it would be harder and more expensive to produce.



Okay, I'll try to make a six digit design to see how it looks.


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## MaeLSTRoM (Oct 6, 2012)

Well I think the number of digits depends on what time we want the upper limit to be. Obviously if it has 6 digits, it could be up to 10 minutes with 3dp, or up to 1 hour. 5 digits Would be what we have at the moment. I think maybe we should sort out for certain what we want on the timer before we start making prototypes?


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## ThomasJE (Oct 6, 2012)

Here's the 6-digit design:
http://sketchup.google.com/3dwarehouse/details?mid=3633d5d679ff28613d0a0aade051ee6f
And here's some pictures:
https://docs.google.com/folder/d/0B4kZ4FB24GmnMjZZYnVVd0c2YjA/edit
Please say what design you prefer (if you think there is any difference).


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## Ickathu (Oct 6, 2012)

I prefer the 6-digit design. How high would it go? 99 minutes? That's perfect for something like MBLD (even though we only need up to 60)


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## ThomasJE (Oct 6, 2012)

Ickathu said:


> I prefer the 6-digit design. How high would it go? 99 minutes? That's perfect for something like MBLD (even though we only need up to 60)



We could go above one hour, we could theoretically do 1:00:00. But not many solves go above one hour now (the only candidate would be 5x5 BLD), so we may not need to.


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## Vincents (Oct 6, 2012)

I might have mentioned this before, but what about running CCT or similar on any tablet (and plugging your Stackmat in)? Jeremy tackled the problem for a bit, but he's got other WCA issues calling him right now, but someone can attempt to make this work.

The timing issue is separate.


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## ThomasJE (Oct 6, 2012)

Vincents said:


> I might have mentioned this before, but what about running CCT or similar on any tablet (and plugging your Stackmat in)? Jeremy tackled the problem for a bit, but he's got other WCA issues calling him right now, but someone can attempt to make this work.
> 
> The timing issue is separate.



That could be an idea, but what for competitions that can't afford the tablets/not have enough? We could do both...


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## CarlBrannen (Oct 6, 2012)

It might be cheaper to go with 5 digits but with an adjustable decimal point. So you could go to 100 seconds with an accuracy of 0.001 seconds, to 1000 seconds with an accuracy of 0.01 seconds and to 10000 seconds (roughly three hours) with an accuracy of 0.1 seconds.


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## ducttapecuber (Oct 6, 2012)

CarlBrannen said:


> It might be cheaper to go with 5 digits but with an adjustable decimal point. So you could go to 100 seconds with an accuracy of 0.001 seconds, to 1000 seconds with an accuracy of 0.01 seconds and to 10000 seconds (roughly three hours) with an accuracy of 0.1 seconds.



That is an interesting idea. It would satisfy all that the timer needs.


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## Stefan (Oct 6, 2012)

CarlBrannen said:


> you could go to 100 seconds with an accuracy of 0.001 seconds, to 1000 seconds with an accuracy of 0.01 seconds and to 10000 seconds (roughly three hours) with an accuracy of 0.1 seconds.



You people keep confusing five and six... 1:39.999, 16:39.99 and 2:46:39.9 all have six digits, not five.


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## MaeLSTRoM (Oct 6, 2012)

CarlBrannen said:


> It might be cheaper to go with 5 digits but with an adjustable decimal point. So you could go to 100 seconds with an accuracy of 0.001 seconds, to 1000 seconds with an accuracy of 0.01 seconds and to 10000 seconds (roughly three hours) with an accuracy of 0.1 seconds.



Or we could have just 2 modes with 6 digits. 1 mode goes up to 9:59.999, and the other goes up to 99:59.99. So 1 is for shorter events, and the other for longer events. Maybe even a software switch to change between them after 10 minutes? This would also mean that it doesn't have to be changed manually.


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## manstrong (Oct 6, 2012)

1:00:00 is the highest it would need to go for MBLD. So why do you want 6 digits? A ten minute solve doesn't need 3 decimal points (600.000)


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## ThomasJE (Oct 7, 2012)

There have only been three successful solves over 1hr (both 5x5 BLD). Of course, there are unsuccessful solves that aren't in the list, but the 6 digit timer could still go over 1 hour. So, we could go from 59:59.99 to 1:00:00 and theoretically could go to 99:59:99.

Another idea: The only solve above 100 minutes was Stefan's 2:34:36 fron 2004. So, we could do up to 100 minutes to 99:59.99, and then switch to 1:40:00. Could be a little confusing at first though.

What about a light for low battery on the timer? Also, I'll probably only update the 6-digit design.

Also, has anyone downloaded the Sketchup file? If so, could you please give some feedback on how the timer looks.


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## qqwref (Oct 17, 2012)

How about we use a 5-digit display (x:xx.xx) and after 10 minutes we display it in minutes and seconds instead (x:xx:xx), using hours for the leftmost digit if we really have to?

And if you want 1/1000-second precision, change "5" to "6".


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