# WCA, CCA and cubing in China



## keyan (Jan 30, 2011)

Given the language barrier, not much information has gotten to here about recent developments in cubing in China. As the second largest participant in the WCA, by both competitor number and competition number, China's impact on cubing is obvious. Here's my attempt at explaining some of the recent cubing situation in China. 

First is the story of the CCA's beginnings, as I wrote last fall. My Chinese is not fluent, there's a chance I've misinterpreted some aspects of this, so take what I say here with as much salt as you please. The spoiler's there for a reason, be warned. 



Spoiler



The founding of the CCA was announced at the WCA ChangChun 2010 competition on August 1. Several delegates mostly from north-east China were announced, with Haiyan Zhuang as "honorary president". After this, there was a long period of silence. While public interest was obvious, no information was available. Who exactly composed the CCA wasn't even known, as the previously named delegates never said anything about it. At the end of August, a CCA Beijing competition was announced for September 24. This was called the first CCA competition, along with the founding of the CCA. 

In September, a CCA spokesperson was announced, who never again made any announcements. It was about this time that a WCA competition organizer received a threat, saying that they should pull out of organizing the competition, lest they "become the first victim when the CCA destroys the WCA".

The CCA Beijing competition went well, everyone enjoyed themselves, aside from me, as the organizer decided he needed to ridicule me during a speech in the middle of the competition. What disappointed me was that, after repeatedly saying the CCA intended to hold "Chinese competitions" that the WCA was somehow incapable of holding, the competition was run exactly like a WCA competition. A set of CCA regulations were announced, which were in fact directly plagiarized from the WCA regulations without attribution. When after the competition a competitor asked about how the results would be published, CCA "honorary chairman" Liping Shang responded very flippantly, saying they had no responsibility to tell anyone anything. 

Since then, the CCA has held many competitions in north-east China, and recently begun expanding to the south. They have put a lot of work into holding these competitions, and I appreciate the service they're providing to the local community. The WCA is still limited in China, so the drive of the CCA to hold more competitions, though not unique from the many local competitions regularly held throughout China, is admirable. 

The story of the founding of the CCA has varied significantly. The current version of the story centers around a supposed WCA bias against north-east China. In the spring a competition organizer from north-east China came to Beijing to meet with me and ask about becoming a delegate. I told him that as I didn't know him I couldn't make a recommendation myself, but that I would not oppose any recommendations by the Chinese delegates and would help anyone recommended as best I could. He agreed with my view. However, given that he also told me that night that "perhaps there is no one in north-east China suitable to delegate", I'm not surprised that no one was later recommended. In May in another discussion about delegates, I again said I was supportive of any recommendations made by the other delegates, and welcomed other suggestions and advice. Later another WCA delegate was added in northern China, who had a close relationship with the competition organizers in the north-east. Between then and now, this has been reinterpreted as an "arrogant and rude" refusal to allow competitions to be held in the north-east. This, despite the fact that there are many regions of China without WCA delegates, and while we are working to add more, the lack of delegates has a basis in the past intimidation against delegates and people rumored to be future delegates. 

In September, public interest in the CCA jumped. While the CCA spokesperson was silent and other CCA organizers mostly refused to answer questions, only one CCA delegate was willing to respond to questions. While he had previously said that he does not speak for the CCA, and the page of the CCA website explaining the organization structure was in fact blank, he was the only person at the time to respond directly to questions about the organization. Some questions brought up include: Questions about the basic structure of the organization and how people can participate. How CCA delegates are chosen. The glaring textual mistakes in the official CCA charter. The illegal usage of an image of the Chinese flag on the CCA website. The fact that the WCA ChangChun 2010 competition results were retconned as CCA results, despite the fact that competitors did not even know of the existence of the organization until the day of the competition, and were given no option of participating or not. The cost of CCA "membership". Contradictory statements that have been made about the organization structure. Some questions were ignored, while the remainder got a request for patience until the issue can be resolved. Many of the responses have been rather hostile. For example, in responding to the point about their usage of the Chinese flag as a logo, honest advice that potentially saved them from a heavy fine, the CCA delegate said those questioning them should "spit up blood and die". For the question of the ChangChun results, the promised one week period for a response passed, and the question has since been ignored. To now, none of these questions have gotten a real response. 

At the end of October there was a sudden announcement, "Regarding the CCA". It apparently took three months before it was decided to try to explain what the CCA actually was. Unfortunately, this explanation didn't actually provide much information. With a lot of people pressing for actual information, a day later the CCA organizational structure was announced. Of note were two names, an advisor and a vice-president. Both of these people are big names in the Chinese cubing community, and their participation would give a lot of support to the organization. It wasn't until a few days later that everyone found out that the advisor was asked to take the position only two days before, and wasn't actually willing to do so, and that the vice-president didn't find out he had become part of the organization until two days afterward, and also wasn't willing to participate. Beyond this, the announcement only provided more conflicting information about questions even as simple as the organization's name, structure and founding. 

More than the lack of transparency, the hostility displayed by the CCA is troubling. Beyond the previous threat of becoming a "victim" of the CCA, some CCA organizers, on suggesting plans to also hold WCA events, have been told that will make them "enemies of the CCA". Contradicting their public statements, they've also said privately that their goal is to prevent the WCA from hosting events in China. The upcoming WCA competition in Shenyang was delayed by a week so as not to conflict with a CCA competition. After the WCA competition was announced, another CCA competition was announced for the same day, and the organizer has apparently been using contacts within schools to tell the mostly student cubing population that they cannot attend the WCA competition. I support people's choice to participate in whatever events they wish. I had a lot of fun attending a non-WCA inter-university competition in Beijing in November. As such, I am disappointed that the CCA feels they need to threaten people to not interact with other organizations. 

One issue is the CCA's relationship with Haiyan Zhuang. Initially announced as "honorary president", it was later claimed that Haiyan was never involved with the CCA. His actual involvement is still unclear even to the CCA delegates. While they are certainly free to associate with anyone they choose, it is disappointing that they have supported him even in a recent spree of blatantly abusing people online and with threats and insults over the phone. 

Within China, there are many factors that make organizing competitions uniquely difficult, compared with my experience in the US. Because of this, I fully support the idea that supposedly drives the CCA, an organization that helps organize and run cube competitions for the sake of the community. Regardless of if they worked with the WCA or independently, I think such an organization would be beneficial to the Chinese cubing community. However, I don't think that opposing the WCA is helpful to Chinese cubers, nor is using the organization as a vehicle for personal vendettas all while lacking any sort of transparency about what they are actually doing.


tl;dr - The CCA began as an attempt to eliminate the WCA from China, and has continued with that with various threats as they began to host competitions. 



That was the situation here as of last fall. Since then, the CCA has held further competitions and expanded their competition format. With a new WCA delegate in the north-east, exactly where they complained that the WCA was refusing to hold competitions, they seem to be trying to move away from their former claims of providing competitions where the WCA could not. Throughout this, most competitors seem happy to compete and have a good time regardless of the organization. I think that's a good attitude. 

On the WCA side of things, there has been a lot of growth. Just recently we doubled the number of WCA delegates in China while we continue to increase the number of competitions held and experiment with new competition styles. We look forward to being able to further provide for the cubing community here. As for the WCA's relationship with the CCA, their latest tactic has been to demand that WCA competitions be held as joint WCA/CCA competitions, else they will prevent any WCA competitions from being held. They want to use the WCA to legitimize their own organization. Given their previous threats, we see no need for the WCA to cooperate with the CCA, but I'm fine with a live and let live relationship. Unfortunately the CCA still doesn't seem willing to accept this. 

One problem I see in China is a view that the WCA is a 'foreign' organization, rather than something created by the community as a whole. I feel there's a divide separating Asian cubers, particularly Chinese cubers, from their American and European peers. I think there stands to be more international integration among cubers. There are some posters on speedsolving that I recognize from MF8, but I think there is still a significant gap between communities. A better understanding of the international community and the WCA would help both the Chinese cube community interact with other cubers, and help the WCA better spread within China. 

The growth of the Chinese cubing community that I've seen in the past several years is enormous. As the second largest and a rapidly growing participant in the WCA, I think there is much that can be done to work toward better serving the Chinese community and better integrating the Chinese community with the cubing community at large. Cube competitions in China have been regularly held for over five years, and I can only imagine that they will continue to spread. Exactly how they will operate in the future we can only wait to see. 



In case it's not clear, 2006KRUE01 is me.


----------



## Stefan (Jan 30, 2011)

Thanks for that. I had been wondering about CCA and cubing in China. Any more views by others, same or different?

For a moment, I thought the upcoming world championship should get Chinese and non-Chinese cubers together, but then I saw that at the recent Asian championship, only two of the 129 competitors were from China. Any idea why?

```
86 Thailand
10 Indonesia
 9 Japan
 7 Malaysia
 5 Philippines
 2 China
 2 Denmark
 2 Germany
 2 Netherlands
 1 Australia
 1 Iran
 1 Sweden
 1 Taiwan
```


----------



## qqwref (Jan 30, 2011)

Very nice effort in writing this, it clearly took a lot of research and it's great to have someone in this community who is willing to explain things like this. I wish I could read those mf8 links but I (obviously) don't know any Chinese, and the available Chinese-English translators are pretty darn bad.



keyan said:


> More than the lack of transparency, the hostility displayed by the CCA is troubling. [...] That was the situation here as of last fall. Since then, the CCA has held further competitions and expanded their competition format. [...] Given their previous threats, we see no need for the WCA to cooperate with the CCA, but I'm fine with a live and let live relationship. Unfortunately the CCA still doesn't seem willing to accept this.


Seems like the situation right now isn't that great, although it's better than it was (maybe due to the increase in WCA delegates?). I really think the CCA is a bad idea, and will only distance Chinese cubers from the WCA in the long run, and prevent deserving people from setting official records. As for which would come out ahead, outside of China it's obvious: the WCA has earned trust over many years, whereas the CCA seems to be untrustworthy and confusing even to its members.



keyan said:


> One problem I see in China is a view that the WCA is a 'foreign' organization, rather than something created by the community as a whole. I feel there's a divide separating Asian cubers, particularly Chinese cubers, from their American and European peers. I think there stands to be more international integration among cubers. There are some posters on speedsolving that I recognize from MF8, but I think there is still a significant gap between communities.


On the other hand, China's only 1/5 of the world, and a Chinese Cube Association looks foreign (and clearly biased, at that) to everyone else. So I'd really rather see the Chinese members of the WCA work together to build up the organization's image in their country. Perhaps the delegates could come together and try to convince the community that the WCA has a history of trustworthiness and transparency, and that the WCA wants the best for the Chinese cubing community, even though they have a hard time tracking it due to the language barrier.

And there is a divide, but if the Chinese community is as big as I think it is, I hope we will have a divide for a while - I don't want 90% of the people posting on speedsolving to be native Chinese speakers 


Incidentally, keyan, what timer do Chinese cubers typically use? Is it a Chinese-translated version of a popular English timer, or do they use something else entirely? I would be willing to make a Chinese version of qqTimer if I had someone to translate all the text.


----------



## Zarxrax (Jan 30, 2011)

qqwref said:


> Incidentally, keyan, what timer do Chinese cubers typically use? Is it a Chinese-translated version of a popular English timer, or do they use something else entirely? I would be willing to make a Chinese version of qqTimer if I had someone to translate all the text.


 
I really doubt that timers present much of a language barrier. The only things you could possibly need to translate are stuff like "average of 5" " average of 12", and its fairly obvious what those are, even if you can't read the words.


----------



## qqwref (Jan 30, 2011)

Zarxrax said:


> I really doubt that timers present much of a language barrier. The only things you could possibly need to translate are stuff like "average of 5" " average of 12", and its fairly obvious what those are, even if you can't read the words.


Stuff like "average of 5" won't be an issue, but what about the more complicated options? I don't think I'd even consider using such a complex timer program if it was in a language I couldn't read.


----------



## Kenneth (Jan 30, 2011)

Stefan said:


> Thanks for that. I had been wondering about CCA and cubing in China. Any more views by others, same or different?
> 
> For a moment, I thought the upcoming world championship should get Chinese and non-Chinese cubers together, but then I saw that at the recent Asian championship, only two of the 129 competitors were from China. Any idea why?


 
They can't get a visa, people in India are having the same problem (shows in your list I think). Reasons are costs and long waiting for approval, like half a year.

CCA; an organisation without any organisation can't live long...


----------



## r_517 (Jan 30, 2011)

Stefan said:


> For a moment, I thought the upcoming world championship should get Chinese and non-Chinese cubers together, but then I saw that at the recent Asian championship, only two of the 129 competitors were from China. Any idea why?


Complicated visa process (loads of documentations, months of waiting time for approval etc) and expensive air tickets.



qqwref said:


> what timer do Chinese cubers typically use?


the majority choose CCT with Chinese-patch or some Chinese timers which I'm not familiar with. qqtimer hasn't been introduced until 3 months ago by onionhoney. just searched through mf8 and found this translated qqtimer by some cuber http://www.xxs33.cn/qqtimer.html 

On topic, it's really bad to hear quite a few cubers saying "We don't need foreigners to rule our Chinese competitions" such. just stupid


----------



## tertius (Jan 30, 2011)

I figure it will be the same as the way they run their monetary system.


----------



## macky (Jan 30, 2011)

Thanks for this write-up. This needs to be read by more people.

[edit]
I woke up, and a friend of mine had written this on my facebook wall:


Spoiler



Ming Loong a écrit : « I don't want to read everything, but at least this part seems incorrect: "When after the competition a competitor asked about how the results would be published, CCA "honorary chairman" Liping Shang responded very flippantly, saying they had no responsibility to tell anyone anything." The actual text, as linked, is this: "你小子 你小子经常是脸冲我的时候叫"大爷"，脸冲别人的时候骂"cao你大爷"，你个臭小子。(This was interpreted as "responded very flippantly", because the short literal translation--a rough translation--says "You fool." but this seems to be a friendly banter, as will be evident later.) 本来你的问题我们根本就没有任何必要来回答，你自己的成绩你已经知道了，不知道你是想知道其他人的成绩呢，还是想怎么着。看在我们是朋友的份上，我就来弱弱的给你说下。 (Translation: "There is, in fact, no necessity for us to answer your question. You already know about your result, but perhaps you want to know about other people's result, or something else? Since we are friends, I'll explain briefly.) 成绩正在上传中，这个事情由我来做的，这二天我儿子有点闹腾，都忙活我儿子了，所以一直没弄完，请你及各位魔友耐心等待。 ("The result is being uploaded. This is my responsibility, but my son has been giving me problems these few days, and I have been busy taking care of him. Therefore, I haven't finished compiling the results. I would ask for your and fellow cubers' patience.") 不知道兄弟你满意我的回答不，如果不满意，你电联我，我请你喝酒，咱们酒桌上细谈。" ("I'm not sure if you are satisfied with my answer, but if you are not, please contact me, I'll buy you beer, and we can talk about this slowly.") » 

Ming Loong a écrit : « Also, for this comment "Between then and now, this has been reinterpreted as an "arrogant and rude" refusal to allow competitions to be held in the north-east." the post referenced is this (or seems so): 回复TimMc——想斗嘴皮子的人请绕道 (This is the title of the thread) =================== 引用 (Quoting TimMc--ask him what he wrote, I'm not going to translate this): 这是一封来自澳大利亚墨尔本的带着敬意的邮件，很荣幸能够与这个有声望的中国魔方团体进行交流。我希望澳大利亚的魔方团体能够在将来的某一天达到像贵协会一样的规模以及知名度。现在我正在鼓励我国各大高校的学生建立魔方社团并且得到各方赞助，这样我们最终在偏远地区也能够举行比赛了。但是在我们继续举办更多比赛的过程中，我注意到了一个正不断出现的不和谐的现象：参赛者个人要求举办更多种类的赛事以及于比赛当天增加更多轮比赛。当时间允许，其他一些参赛者也支持增加赛事或比赛轮数的时候，我会酌情增加。 当到了决定什么样的比赛项目应该被规划到马上就要进行的下一个比赛的时候，我会咨询整个团体的魔友们。有更多参赛者参与的比赛项目自然会被给予更高的优先权，尽管我很乐意增加尽可能多的赛事以及比赛轮数，但是这要是在对整个魔友团体有利的前提下。可是当个人提出某个项目应该被增加但是没有得到群众的支持时，我会礼貌拒绝，尤其是当这个项目需要很多时间来进行时。举个例子来说，在不久之前的Australian Nationals 2010，曾经有一位参赛者要求增加一项”fewest moves”的比赛项目。但是我们已然安排了足以持续两天的17项赛事，当时已经没有没有足够的时间并且这个能力进行这个项目了。作为代替，我提出在接下来只有10类赛事的"Melbourne Cube Day 2010"进行这个项目。 我真诚地感谢Zhuang Haiyan对澳洲魔方团体做出的支持。在我们第一个比赛中，提供魔方作为奖品极大地鼓励了我们的参赛者，这是一段非常美好的回忆。这次比赛中，出现了一些新的世界记录…不好意思，偏题了。在和Andy以及Chris交谈以后，我有一些疑问，冒昧的希望您能作答。我认为，此次讨论最好能够从公共视角出发。但是您也可以选择不回答，因为我也许不是处在适当的位置提出这些问题。如有冒犯，则请原谅。 ======================== 你好，TimMc,非常感谢您的回帖，下面我对您的一些问题进行回答 ("Hi TimMc, thanks for your reply, below is my answer to some of your questions.") 首先，CCA是我们几个省的组织者联合组织起来的，我们只是想让更多的地方可以满足举办正规比赛的需要，并且提供一切我们能力范围之内的帮助，比如裁判的培训、成绩的认证和监督、还有大显、计时器甚至是赞助等方面。 ("First, CCA is an organization formed by combining a few provincial organizations.") 另外Zhuang Haiyan先生的确是对我们有很大的帮助，并且积极参与我们组织的比赛，但他并不是组织者之一，我们同样很感谢Zhuang Haiyan先生一直以来对我们的支持和帮助。 ("Also, Zhuang Haiyan indeed has been really helpful to us, and have also participated enthutiastically in the competitions we organized, but he isn't one of the organizations. But we are equally appreciative of Zhuang Haiyan's support and help.") 引用 (Quoting TimMc's reply): Q1：CCA是否希望得到国际认可度？ ("Q1: Does CCA hope to gain international recognition?") 这个是当然的，而且我们同样支持WCA. ("This is certain, and we are supportive of WCA.") » 

Ming Loong a écrit : « 引用 (Quote): Q2：CCA参赛者的组织者是否在联系WCA delegates以及WCA董事会来寻求国际知名度？ (There seems to be a slight mistake by TimMc here. Literally, "Q2: Are the organizers of CCA participants in contact with WCA delegates and the WCA committee [essentially he's referring to the WCA "board" but I don't know what it's called since I'm not familiar with WCA] to seek international recognition?") WCA delegates有联系过，但WCA董事会暂时还没有。不过很希望有这样的机会，当然这要等我们更成熟、完善一些，我们会更主动的去联系。 ("We have contacted WCA delegates before, but we haven't contacted the WCA "board" at the moment. However, we hope to have the opportunity to do so, but this certainly has to wait until we are more mature, and more comprehensive, and we will then be more proactive in initiating contact.") 引用 (Quote--this two characters means quote from now on): Q3：CCA是否希望成为一个举办WCA比赛的“组织团队”性质的协会？ ("Q3: Does CCA desire to be an organization similar to WCA--one that organizes competitions like WCA?" [He refers to "organization team" but I'm not sure what that means.]) 就像上面回答的，我们同样支持WCA，如果条件允许的话，我们希望能让WCA和CCA在一场比赛里同时认证，不过目前来讲不太现实，我本人跟中国的WCA delegates沟通过，对方表示没有这个可能 ("Like the answer above, we are supportive of WCA, and if permitted, we hope to have WCA and CCA verify games together [I'm supposing this is verifying result of competition], but this is, at present, not realistic/practical. I myself have been in contact with the WCA China delegate, but he indicated that there is no such possibility.") 引用: Q4：CCA的比赛者是否不被CCA鼓励参与WCA举办的比赛？ ("Q4: Are participants in CCA competitions discouraged from participating in WCA competitions?") 这个我不只一次表示过，我虽然是CCA的组织者之一，但同样支持WCA，也支持我们这边的魔友去参加WCA赛事，只要是比赛，我都会支持、组织他们去参赛，近两年的时间里北方所有的WCA比赛我都参与并担任工作人员，CCA的成员也是如此。在我们眼里，WCA和我们组织的比赛并没有冲突的地方 ("With regards to this question, I have not only answered once. Although I am one of the organizers [I'm not sure about the context, it means something like like "member"] of CCA, but I am supportive of WCA, and also supportive of our cubers participating in WCA competitions. As long as it is a competition, I support, and I will organize them together [a better translation might be: bring them together] to participate. For the past two years, I have been taking part in all north-region WCA competitions, and have also been one of the working team [organizing personnel]. The same goes for CCA members. From our perspective, WCA and our organization has no points of conflict.") »

Ming Loong a écrit : « 引用: Q5：中国的魔友是否希望参与更多的WCA比赛？ ("Q5: Do Chinese cubers hope to participate in more WCA competitions?") 答案是肯定的，但是条件不允许，中国每年几十场比赛，WCA delegate又申请不下来，有的地方根本就不可能请的动WCA delegate，东三省都如此，何况那些偏远地区？ ("The answer is in the affirmative, but conditions do not allow that. There are more than ten competitions, and also can't apply to be WCA delegates. There are also areas in which asking help from WCA delegates [here it's something like "requesting WCA delegate"] is impossible. The Dongsan province is one such case, and what's more for regions that are even more remote?") 引用: 如果在中国更多的WCA比赛被提上议程，那么最终你们将会需要指派更多的WCA delegates。如果所有的delegates都不能参加并且比赛时间不可修改那么你们可以联系WCA董事会。一位会说中文的WCA delegate很乐意能够从海外赶来支持比赛。但是我认为，当WCA面对增加的比赛时，它会任命更多的delegates来组织。 (Quoting TimMc: "If there are more proposals for WCA competitions in China [I'm not sure about the context for "被提上议程" and it could mean proposed as points of discussion], that means we have to send more WCA delegates. If all delegates cannot participate, and change of competition date [here 时间 could mean "time", but I don't know the context] is not possible, you can contact the WCA board. One WCA delegate who speaks Chinese will be happy go to China to support competitions. However/But [I'm not sure why he used a contrastive marker here], I believe that when WCA faces increasing number of competitions, WCA will appoint more delegates.") 之前提到的那个常见的问题，完全可以在提前准备的时候很简单地避免。但是它最终成为了超越个人矛盾的群体斗争，构成了各个魔方群体的隔离的危险。我真诚地希望这不是事实，并且一些解决方案能够被提出。 ("Regarding this common problem that has been mentioned earlier, it could be avoided easily during the preparation period prior to competitions.") 非常感谢您的回复，看得出来您是一位敬业、正直、热心的朋友，我们很想举办WCA&CCA同时认证的比赛，即使不能同时认证，我们也支持WCA比赛，同时欢迎您来中国做客，与我们一起参与、组织、监督比赛 ——无论是WCA、CCA、甚至是没有认证的比赛，也欢迎您能来到中国的冰城哈尔滨，这一个月内，哈尔滨每周都会有比赛，随后我会发布一些比赛的公告。 ("I thank you very much for your reply. I can see that you are passionate towards your interest/job [I can't think of a better translation at the moment], honest, and enthusiastic friend. We'd really like to organize WCA&CCA simultaneous-verified [again, I don't know the context for "simultaneous-verified"] competitions. And even if we can't simultaneous-verify, we are supportive of WCA competitions, and welcome you to China, and participate, organize, and monitor competitions--regardless of whether competitions are verified by WCA or CCA, or competitions that are not verified. We also hope that you can come to Harbin, China's ice city. This month, there will be a competition every week in Harbin, and after that we will announce the competition results.") 最后补充一下，我个人是抵制chris的，虽然北京并不太远但我们想在自己的省办比赛却找不到WCA delegate；想要申请自己的WCA delegate，两个省的组织者专程去了两次北京却又被拖了几个月不了了之，好吧我承认我们和Zhuang Haiyan私人关系很好但也正因为这样，我们之间不只相互帮助，也可以相互监督。在这样的情况下，我们的确办不了WCA认证的比赛，虽然魔友们有些失望，但也没办法，一切都准备好了却因为没有WCA delegate而拖了几个月。 ("Finally, let me add one more thing. Personally, I am against [something like "boycott"] chris. Although Beijing is not far away, we like to organize competitions but couldn't find WCA delegates. Were we to apply for our own WCA delegate, two provincial organizers have specially gone to Beijing but had been delayed to no result [in this case, the message is that the two organizers who went to Beijing did not make any progress due to delays]. Ok, I admit our personal relationship with Zhuang Haiyan is very good, but it is also for this reason that we provide assistance to one another, and mutually monitor [I don't know the context, but seems to be monitor competitions.] In such a situation, we indeed couldn't organize WCA-verified competitions, and although fellow cubers are disppointed, we have no choice. We have prepared everything but have been delayed for a few months due to the absence of a WCA delegate.") delegate是必然要尊重的，他们的私人时间也要尊重，所以对于北京的两位代表都不过来的理由，我们并没有什么意见。但是chris当时对“东北三省联赛没有WCA delegate、或者申请不了WCA delegate就没法举行公开赛”的回答是“这个我不知道，我不管”，我的确是感受到了一些傲慢与无礼。每次想起这件事，我都觉得现在的一些情况很讽刺，就像您说的，现在的确是有一些矛盾的斗争，但很遗憾这是事实。 ("It is necessary to respect [WCA?] delegate. We also have to respect their private time, so with regards to the two representatives from Beijing who did not come [not sure where the destination is--could be competitions in his area], we do not have any opinion [i.e. we are ok/neutral with it.] However, at that time, Chris's response to "you can't have a competition if there is no WCA delegate in the Northeast-three-province-joint-competition, or if an application can't be made for a WCA delegate" was "This I don't know, and I don't care.", I indeed felt arrogance and disrepect [i.e. he thought that chris was arrogant and disrespectful]. Every time I recall this event, I feel that the present situation is a bit ironic, as you said, at present, there is indeed some contradiction [a better translation might be "misunderstanding"] and conflict, but regrettably [macky: this is like zannen, but I can't think of a better English substitute], this is the reality. 这只是我个人的想法，因为我不会像某些人一样把个人情感参杂进来，所以从来没有跟我们这边的魔友讨论过chris的事情，当然他对中国的魔方界是有贡献的。只是不停的有人想跟我讨论，我只好把我亲身体会过的一些事情说一下 ("This is my personal opinion, and I wouldn't be like someone who mixed personal relationship [implied: into this situation], therefore, I have not discussed the chris issue with fellow cubers. Certainly, he has made contribution to the Chinese cubing community. But repeatedly there are people who would like to discuss this with me, and I just want to say something about my personal experience.") 以上所有我说过的这些您可以向我们当地的魔友来求证，Zhuang Haiyan禁赛事件的“ICA调查组”可以找到中国的魔友“收集证据”，我相信您同样可以找到中国的魔友。 ("All that I have said above, you can verify with other fellow cubers in our region [alternative: "in said region"]. The "ICA investigation team [ICA is most likely a cultural reference to something on TV, or in China]" on t he case of Zhuang Haiyan prohibiting competitions have been able to find cubers in China to "collect evidence", and I believe you can find other cubers in China too.") 感谢您的关注与支持 ("Thanks for your attention and support.") »


----------



## keyan (Jan 31, 2011)

Stefan: As others explained, the process for international travel for Chinese is difficult. There's also the issue of time and money. Even domestic travel for competitions seems less common here. 

qqwref: I'm not suggesting sinicization of speedsolving, just some more effort at further international communication, making a more inclusive community. Language issues are the first problem, and I don't know how best to address them. But it is something worth considering, and there's plenty of small things that might be done. Would you be surprised to know that there are a few regular posters on MF8 that don't know Chinese? And my thanks again to Clément for the addition of non-Roman characters to the WCA database. 

Macky: Your friend is addressing two posts I linked from MF8. With the first, the actual recipient of the post in question doesn't feel the post was made in a particularly friendly manner. For the second, the language about "supporting the WCA" is quite contradictory with what they've said in private. In linking that post I was pointing specifically to the "arrogant and rude" phrasing regarding the north-east competition they wanted to hold. Not surprisingly, they fail to mention exactly why I didn't attend. They planned the competition for a date right during my exam period at school. When I said I couldn't attend any competition at that time, they became very angry, later even suggesting that WCA rules required me, regardless of personal commitments, to attend their competition. Another time, when discussing a delegate for the north-east, I said that I wouldn't recommend anyone I didn't know, but would fully support anyone recommended by the other Chinese delegates. Suggesting that I am somehow biased against north-east China is ridiculous, and so I think it shouldn't take much to realize their story of starting the CCA because they needed to fight against my "arrogant and rude" refusal to allow competitions in north-east China is far from realistic. 

后来北大补充赛刘哥特意来了，三少主持了一次会面，那次谈的还是比较好，柯言给的说法是，对于刘哥，他不熟悉，但是如果占星我们都极力推荐，他也不会反对，他会帮忙，刘哥对当时的这个说法也比较满意。
After the Beijing Side Events competition, Liu (CCA secretary) specially came to Beijing. Liping Shang (CCA honorary chairman) organized a meeting, that time the discussion was pretty good. Chris said he wasn't familiar with Liu, but that if Danyang (WCA delegate) and we recommended him, he wouldn't oppose, he would help. Liu approved of this. 
http://bbs.mf8.com.cn/viewthread.php?tid=59720


----------



## macky (Jan 31, 2011)

Thanks. Of course I imagined or knew of the sorts of circumstances you described, but it's helpful to provide clarifications like these as if to an outsider who can understand Chinese well.


----------



## keyan (Apr 4, 2011)

The CCA had its six month anniversary recently. Maybe. Depending on who they're talking to, they say that the organization was founded either at the beginning of August or end of September last year. Either way, they've come a long way in this time. 

But who really makes up the CCA? Aside from the previously mentioned advisor and vice-president who were unwittingly CCAed, there are

Honorary President Liping Shang: Backed up Haiyan Zhuang's false accusation of misuse of competition funds by WCA delegate Ming Zheng. 
President Bo Sun: Threatened a lawsuit over Haiyan's banning. Threatened a competition organizer about becoming a victim when the "CCA destroyed the WCA". Furthered Haiyan's complaints of "removing second rounds of BLD", which to my knowledge never occurred, while not acknowledging that in the August 1 Changchun competition that he organized, scheduled and publicly announced second rounds of 4x4 and 5x5 were eliminated. 
Vice President Tiesheng Li: Lied repeatedly in accusing me of eliminating rounds of BLD and claiming that the other delegates were unhappy with me. 
Secretary Gang Liu: Pressured competitors not to attend a WCA competition in his hometown. Claimed WCA delegates personally profit off competitions, then put the onus of proof on anyone suggesting otherwise. 

All of this is why I don't trust this organization. 

Tying these guys together, though, are direct business ties with Haiyan Zhuang. 

The tone in my previous post was maybe unclear. The ambiguity over Haiyan's involvement in the CCA was created by them, after they realized that being too closely tied to Haiyan was a liability after he gave up all pretense of credibility and rationality in a series of attacks on others online last year. In reality, the organization is largely, if not entirely, run by him. It is Haiyan that is in charge of selecting CCA delegates. It is Haiyan that has threatened CCA competition organizers not to also organize WCA events. It is Haiyan who has harassed children, demanding that they not attend WCA competitions. The reality of the CCA is just a front for his vendetta against the WCA. 

However, in the six (or more) months that the CCA has been around, it has grown a lot. There are now a dozen or so CCA delegates, and they've held over 30 competitions across China. While some of these have been pressured into putting the CCA name over their competitions, most seem to be participating voluntarily, seeking fame. This again may be related to how the WCA was first presented when I came to China in 2007. WCA delegate is seen by many as a position of prestige, a reward for impressive competition scores and the like. There have even been some people that thought it's a paid position. In light of this, the CCA has picked up some people who seem to be seeking the 'fame' of a delegate position and see it easier to become a CCA delegate. 

With this increased participation, I expect we'll see the CCA around for some time to come. One reason is that many people don't seem to see the WCA/CCA split as creating a division in cubing. Competitions are viewed somewhat as isolated events, without continuity. This is visible in their sort of apathy about reporting competition results. 

The division is unfortunate, but there's little I see can be done. For the time being, most cubers seem happy to attend competitions, regardless of WCA, CCA or any else. We will continue to host competitions as best we can, and hope that everyone will continue to recognize that the WCA isn't evil, regardless of accusations made.


----------



## QCcuber4 (Apr 5, 2011)

I read the whole first post, and I still don't see any common sense in what the CCA is attempting... why divide a fully functional world organisation... Everything was fine before CCA... And wtf is up with all the aggressivness? omg... we're talking about freakin toy competitions....


----------



## Dene (Apr 5, 2011)

QCcuber4 said:


> I read the whole first post, and I still don't see any common sense in what the CCA is attempting... why divide a fully functional world organisation... Everything was fine before CCA... And wtf is up with all the aggressivness? omg... we're talking about freakin toy competitions....


 
I don't see the sense in your comment "why divide a fully functional world organisation". The WCA is not an official organisation. It only has recognition in its userbase. Anyone can make a new cubing group if they decide that is the right move for them to make, and if they feel that their interests are not being met by the "accepted authority" then the smart thing for them to do would be to make that new group.


----------

