# Prayers for sale $1 yayay!



## macky (Jun 12, 2009)

For $1, I will pray that you or any competitor of your choosing will get easy permutations in one round (5 solves) of 3x3 speedsolve!
http://cubefreak.net/other/prayer.html

I'm only _half_ joking. With 16 finalists and probably >30 sub-13 cubers at worlds this fall, even some of the best cubers will need a bit of luck to make the final. And if people actually buy this, it'll help pay for my plane ticket...and it would be hilarious.

I'm only accepting Paypal right now, but if enough people post about paying with a credit card, I can also arrange that.
[edit: I can now also accept credit card payments, though I prefer Paypal.]

Yay for summer and doing random things.

Best,
macky


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## xXdaveXsuperstarXx (Jun 12, 2009)

What's the point of this?


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## Rama (Jun 12, 2009)




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## Zaxef (Jun 12, 2009)

...









(too short!)


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## xXdaveXsuperstarXx (Jun 12, 2009)

Maybe if you sold 100 prayers you might be able to buy a cracker from the flight attendant.


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## macky (Jun 12, 2009)

But of course I'm not expecting to make much out of this! I guess I need to make it explicit: I want to know what others think about the cluttering of top cubers and what effect that has on competitions, especially one like Worlds, because of the inherently probabilistic nature of speedcubing.


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## Paul Wagner (Jun 12, 2009)

macky said:


> For $1, I will pray that you or any competitor of your choosing will get easy permutations in one round (5 solves) of 3x3 speedsolve!
> http://cubefreak.net/speed/prayer.html
> 
> I'm only _half_ joking. With 16 finalists and probably >30 sub-13 cubers at worlds this fall, even some of the best cubers will need a bit of luck to make the final. And if people actually buy this, it'll help pay for my plane ticket...and it would be hilarious.
> ...


Cubing indulgences?


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## Mike Hughey (Jun 12, 2009)

Paul Wagner said:


> macky said:
> 
> 
> > For $1, I will pray that you or any competitor of your choosing will get easy permutations in one round (5 solves) of 3x3 speedsolve!
> ...


No, no, you obviously don't understand your doctrine. Indulgences would get you out of cubing purgatory. If you received a plenary cubing indulgence and then died immediately, you would immediately enter blissful cubing eternity with no parity ever and perpetual LL skips, solving just like Frank Morris. If you received only a partial cubing indulgence, the amount of time your parity-suffering would last would be reduced, so you'd have fewer frustrating solves and lockups before reaching cubing heaven.

Macky's offer is just sale of prayers; not in the same league at all. There are no guarantees for any kind of results from prayers, unlike with indulgences. If Macky were selling indulgences, they'd be worth much more than $1.

But I wonder if Macky has the authority from Frank to grant indulgences?


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## blah (Jun 12, 2009)

macky said:


> But of course I'm not expecting to make much out of this! I guess I need to make it explicit: I want to know what others think about the cluttering of top cubers and what effect that has on competitions, especially one like Worlds, because of the inherently probabilistic nature of speedcubing.



Still at that since WC07? Strongly and fully agree with your thoughts on the Yahoo! forum


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## Swordsman Kirby (Jun 12, 2009)

Mike Hughey said:


> with no parity ever and perpetual LL skips, solving just like Frank Morris.



Frank Morris gets perpetual F3L skips, so it's not solving like him.


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## Lucas Garron (Jun 13, 2009)

What if we ask for a round that we're not sure someone will get into?
Also, does PLL skip count? 
("2 of each U, and a skip")


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## cmhardw (Jun 13, 2009)

Macky can I put in a special request? May I request that all of my commutators in a final round 3x3x3 BLD solve be 8 movers (this of course assumes I even make it that far - think happy thoughts)? Or is that pushing the capabilities of the prayer? If it might be, can I ask for any combination of only 8 or 9 movers?

;-)

--edit 1--
Seriously though, I do agree with your assessment that with so many people clustered at the top, all of whom would have a very strong shot at the top-16, that getting into the finals will be very tough this year.

--edit 2--
I am very seriously considering donating to this fund. But seriously though - can you help me out on the 8 movers? ;-)

Chris


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## macky (Jun 13, 2009)

blah said:


> Still at that since WC07? Strongly and fully agree with your thoughts on the Yahoo! forum



Thanks!

For people who haven't been around that long, here's that post from the Yahoo! forum:
http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/speedsolvingrubikscube/message/38365

Unlike what I suggest on there, Nakaji won Worlds 07 all on his own (and I think I wrote that somewhere later), but it'll be hard for anyone to do the same this year, and even harder in another two years. There will always be some limit to speedcubing, regardless of whether or not Fridrich continues to be the method of choice. As more and more people approach that limit, their time difference will necessarily become smaller than the variation caused by different permutations, even assuming flawless execution on every solve.

I was thinking about finding the average and standard deviation for the most recent averages of 5 of the best cubers, but there are people here who can do a much better job than I can. If we also figure out the time variation coming just from OLL and PLL, we can do some interesting calculations. For example, what is the probability of a particular cuber making the final? What if you double the number of cubers in the same time range? Would anyone be up for some studies like this? (Lucas?)

What I'd like to see is an annual average (of at least xx solves), say throwing out the best and the worst 10%. The World Champion would then be the winner of that one competition, and the World Championship would be special not as a competition, but as a rare occasion that brings together cubers of different nationalities.

The ranking system and titles will change one way or another, no doubt about it.

Responding to xXdaveXsuperstarXx, Rama, Zaxef: Perhaps my first post was in bad taste. But it's hilarious! And I do admit: if you appreciate the humor, I wouldn't mind some spare change. 



cmhardw said:


> Macky can I put in a special request? May I request that all of my commutators in a final round 3x3x3 BLD solve be 8 movers (this of course assumes I even make it that far - think happy thoughts)? Or is that pushing the capabilities of the prayer? If it might be, can I ask for any combination of only 8 or 9 movers?



Hehe I can at least pray for anything you want.

macky


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## blah (Jun 13, 2009)

macky said:


> Would anyone be up for some studies like this? (Lucas?)



Nah. He's always too busy with homework


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## luke1984 (Jun 13, 2009)

Do you even know how offensive this is to your own and our intellect?


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## StachuK1992 (Jun 13, 2009)

not at all?


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## fanwuq (Jun 13, 2009)

luke1984 said:


> Do you even know how offensive this is to your own and our intellect?



Why?

Do you even know who is macky? 
Did you bother to read this post:
http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/speedsolvingrubikscube/message/38365
?

I'm wondering if the prayer would have some positive placebo effect that would make the cubist more confident during the final round.


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## luke1984 (Jun 13, 2009)

Stachuk1992 said:


> not at all?





fanwuq said:


> luke1984 said:
> 
> 
> > Do you even know how offensive this is to your own and our intellect?
> ...



So, I misinterpreted?


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## brunson (Jun 13, 2009)

luke1984 said:


> So, I misinterpreted?


It's hard to say since I have no idea what you're alluding to.


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## luke1984 (Jun 13, 2009)

fanwuq said:


> luke1984 said:
> 
> 
> > Do you even know how offensive this is to your own and our intellect?
> ...



Research actually shows prayer has a reverse placebo effect. The prayer group experiences much more stress because they're under higher pressure of performing better than the non-prayer group, and therefore perform worse.




brunson said:


> luke1984 said:
> 
> 
> > So, I misinterpreted?
> ...



Nevermind, I obviously don't know what this is about. I thought the topicstarter was serious about prayer helping to compete better, and in my opinion that's unintelligable.


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## fanwuq (Jun 13, 2009)

luke1984 said:


> Research actually shows prayer has a reverse placebo effect. The prayer group experiences much more stress because they're under higher pressure of performing better than the non-prayer group, and therefore perform worse.



Interesting. Would you mind linking me to the paper?


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## StachuK1992 (Jun 13, 2009)

Stephan posted that link a while back, but I remembering him removing it. He'd know where it is.
->fanwuq


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## Stefan (Jun 13, 2009)

Almost correct. The study I mentioned was about medical effects:
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/31/health/31pray.html

luke1984's description sounds like something else which I don't know about.


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## Neroflux (Jun 13, 2009)

I wonder if you'll pray for my school life if I send a dollar over...


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## d4m4s74 (Jun 14, 2009)

this is the perfect placebo, I'll order one or two for the next compo


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## Hadley4000 (Jun 14, 2009)

StefanPochmann said:


> Almost correct. The study I mentioned was about medical effects:
> http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/31/health/31pray.html
> 
> luke1984's description sounds like something else which I don't know about.



The thing is, though, it can raise spirits and confidence in the person. That can effect how you turn out. My brother says that he thinks the good energy people have been putting out is helping him in his recovery. Granted, he is doing a lot of other things(vitamins, teas, yoga, meditation, and, well, chemotherapy). But good spirits really can help.


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## luke1984 (Jun 14, 2009)

fanwuq said:


> luke1984 said:
> 
> 
> > Research actually shows prayer has a reverse placebo effect. The prayer group experiences much more stress because they're under higher pressure of performing better than the non-prayer group, and therefore perform worse.
> ...





StefanPochmann said:


> Almost correct. The study I mentioned was about medical effects:
> http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/31/health/31pray.html
> 
> luke1984's description sounds like something else which I don't know about.



I can't find the paper I was referring to, but it was about sportsmen performing slightly worse when prayed for by a large group.

I did find this though, also about medical effects: 
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/03/31/MNG0VI1BCH1.DTL&hw=heart&sn=007&sc=330



Hadley4000 said:


> StefanPochmann said:
> 
> 
> > Almost correct. The study I mentioned was about medical effects:
> ...



I agree good spirits can help, but when a large group of people is praying for you to get better and you don't see immidiate results, it causes a lot of stress. 

I also do think that it makes a difference whether 1 person is praying for you or 100 people. 

Also, even if you do believe in god, why would you think praying for something will help you get it? If you believe what the bible says than you must believe god has a plan for everyone, so why would you give you what you want only if you pray for it. 
And if two equally skilled cubers both just as religious pray to get the best time, who will win? The answer is very simple, the person who has te best solve at that time. And getting the best solve depends on method, speed, recognition etc. and not by talking to your imaginairy friend...


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## d4m4s74 (Jun 14, 2009)

If you pray for something, and you don't get it, it's "god's will"

but if it's god's will anyway, why pray?


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## Rama (Jun 14, 2009)

d4m4s74 said:


> If you pray for something, and you don't get it, it's "god's will"
> 
> but if it's god's will anyway, why pray?



In Africa people from different villages traveled half a day to pray for rain. When they arrived someone asked if they brought umbrella's with them, no one brought one. So they were send back to be prepared for rain.
Well eventually they prayed and hay! Rain!


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## brunson (Jun 14, 2009)

Rama said:


> Well eventually they prayed and hay! Rain!


If you're waiting at a stop light and you lean on the horn long enough, the light will change to green. It's a proven fact, try it.


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## mazei (Jun 14, 2009)

I sense religious arguments. Better stop.


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## Rama (Jun 14, 2009)

brunson said:


> Rama said:
> 
> 
> > Well eventually they prayed and hay! Rain!
> ...



You want a fine with that?


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## d4m4s74 (Jun 14, 2009)

http://instantrimshot.com/, always works


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## Rama (Jun 14, 2009)

d4m4s74 said:


> http://instantrimshot.com/, always works



Haha, yeah, but the outfit on my previous post is just epic.
Oops! I just used the 'E' word.


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## Hadley4000 (Jun 14, 2009)

luke1984 said:


> I agree good spirits can help, but when a large group of people is praying for you to get better and you don't see immidiate results, it causes a lot of stress.





Not the case with my brother.


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## Stefan (Jun 14, 2009)

luke1984 said:


> The prayer group experiences much more stress because they're under higher pressure of performing better than the non-prayer group, and therefore perform worse.


Is there evidence to support this explanation?


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## fanwuq (Jun 14, 2009)

luke1984 said:


> I agree good spirits can help, but when a large group of people is praying for you to get better and you don't see immidiate results, it causes a lot of stress.



I don't think that is the reason.



> "It may have made them uncertain, wondering am I so sick they had to call in their prayer team?" Dr. Bethea said.



The subjects were told that they are being prayed for; they can only accept or reject the study. I think that is very different from requesting prayer yourself. Also, how do you know that the families of the control group are not secretly praying for the patients? This study is pretty flawed; perhaps a carefully worded survey would be better.
There are too many factors for a controlled experiment. People of different religions and cultures would behave in very different ways in this situation. This are also issues with the sample group. There aren't that many heart patients to be able to randomly choose an evenly distributed group. The subject in study is prayer, so studying any patients should fine. They should also further divide the groups into their opinions on prayer's healing power. 
Why are cardiologists studying this? This type of work should be done by psychologists.

Consider these papers:
Characteristics of adults who use prayer as an alternative therapy.
http://search.ebscohost.com/login.aspx?direct=true&db=s3h&AN=SPHS-980855&site=ehost-live

Does Prayer Influence the Success of in Vitro Fertilization–Embryo Transfer? 
http://www.uic.edu/classes/psych/He...ertilization, JrRepMed-Skeptical Inquirer.doc
I believe this study should be more accurate because the subjects willingly participated and they were not really sick, so they would not think the pray is offensive.


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## luke1984 (Jun 14, 2009)

StefanPochmann said:


> luke1984 said:
> 
> 
> > The prayer group experiences much more stress because they're under higher pressure of performing better than the non-prayer group, and therefore perform worse.
> ...



I believe there is, I'll look it up sometime. I think I have an issue of Scientific American (magazine) somewhere where this is talked about.

People in general are very bad at performing under most forms of stress. Our adrenalin glands are way to big and our pre-frontal lobes too small.


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## Ton (Jun 14, 2009)

In the UK open 2006 a young cuber was judging me, he made many mistakes where I lost my concentration and I did a 26, and yes next solve he was judging me again, instead of get angry or upset, I asked God to bless him and I got a 13.68 PR. So when you are upset or angry try to do the opposite of what you feel.


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