# Sexuality



## Kirjava (Mar 1, 2011)

Feel free to delete this if it is inappropriate.

Sexuality is a strange concept. For a long time I saw it as black and white, and I think my mindset was influenced by society treating sexuality this way. Looking back, that just seems so artificial to me. 

After an enlightening few years, I came to almost throw away the concept of sexuality completely. Some of you may have heard of the kinsey scale, which definies how 'much' you are homosexual or heterosexual which allows for 'inbetween' states. I don't even think this is a valid measure, as 'sexuality' can change over time. 

I think that the main thing keeping people in 'heterosexual' or otherwise mindsets is not being open to allowing themselves to feel anything else, and even going to the point of deluding themselves into ignoring feelings that they don't see as acceptable. Maybe if people weren't so tainted by thoughts like this they'd come to the realisation that gender simply isn't as important as _how much you like a specific person_.

I find it hard to believe that someone could say that they would never be attracted to someone that doesn't fit within their spectrum of sexuality. How can you be so sure? Just because it's not happened so far doesn't mean it never will. Sure, if you keep telling yourself that and don't allow anything to happen - it never will. However, I'm sure that if you didn't refuse thoughts like this they may stumble into your brain sooner or later. You may even enjoy them!

Sexuality doesn't exist. Discuss.


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## Athefre (Mar 1, 2011)

I agree. It's ignorance and fear. Ignorance because they don't know that the possibility for change is there and fear because, if they do see the possibility, they wonder how people would judge them (and most people _would_ judge them negatively).

I consider myself "straight" but sometimes I do feel like I could _become_ bi. Sort of like an acquired taste. Most of the time I feel like "Ew, not interested in that", but there are these rare times when I think "I could get into that eventually".


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## theace (Mar 1, 2011)

Society is what tries to keep people straight. It's the whole 'what will THEY think' syndrome. People usually shove their feelings into a hole just so they aren't judged, forgetting their own desires in the process and THINKING that they are something they plain and simply aren't.

This doesn't apply JUST to sexuality. The problem with social BS is everywhere. I'll elaborate some other time...


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## Ordos_Koala (Mar 1, 2011)

but what is the point? if someone want to be hetero, why would you try to convince him to be bi? there's nothing wrong with it, but some poeple just like felling "normal"


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## amostay2004 (Mar 1, 2011)

Ordos_Koala said:


> but what is the point? if someone want to be hetero, why would you try to convince him to be bi? there's nothing wrong with it, but some poeple just like felling "normal"


 
No one is convincing anyone. He's just trying to say that we shouldn't stick to a certain mindset or consider a certain sexual orientation to be normal.


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## Ordos_Koala (Mar 1, 2011)

amostay2004 said:


> No one is convincing anyone. He's just trying to say that we shouldn't stick to a certain mindset or consider a certain sexual orientation to be normal.


 
I put it in extreme example... I don't say that being gay isn't normal


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## cmhardw (Mar 1, 2011)

I love Louis C.K.'s take on sexuality. His view is that discrimination based on sexual preference is one of the strangest discriminations there is. When a group racially discriminates against another race, as Louis puts it, and I'm paraphrasing here as I don't remember his exact words, it goes something like "You people are terrible, get away from us. Go over there and be with each other, don't be near us." But with discrimination based on sexuality, more specifically discrimination against any sexuality that is non-hetero, the phrasing is more like "You people are terrible, come over and be with us (other heteros). Don't be with each other, that's terrible! Be with us!"

In regards to sexuality I'm generally of the opinion that people should be whatever it is that they are, as long as being who they are does not infringe on the rights of another person to be happy and be who they are. People don't choose their sexuality, they are who they are. Discriminating against a person for their sexuality is no different than discriminating against them for the color of their skin, or where they were born.


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## Stefan (Mar 1, 2011)

Someone had too much Aki 



Kirjava said:


> Some of you may have heard of the kinsey scale, which definies how 'much' you are homosexual or heterosexual which allows for 'inbetween' states. *I don't even think this is a valid measure, as 'sexuality' can change over time.*




_"The Kinsey scale attempts to describe a person's sexual *history *or episodes of their sexual activity *at a given time*."_
_"based on the relative amounts of heterosexual and homosexual experience or response in each history"_
_"An individual may be assigned a position on this scale, *for each period in his life*."_
-- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinsey_Scale

Looks like it does take change into consideration. Also looks like it measures actual history, how would that be invalid?



Kirjava said:


> Sexuality doesn't exist. Discuss.



Not sure "sexuality" is what you're talking about, at least what Dictionary.com and Wikipedia have sounds different and surely exists.


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## Quadrescence (Mar 1, 2011)

TheManInBlack said:


> Im against "Gay" people. I don't know why it's just a natural feeling. I hate everything they do.
> 
> And no I am not a Jesus lover. I just feel that they have a mental disability from previous childhood experiences. I do not think they are born with the mind to think they are attracted to oppisite sex, I think it has to with growing up in certain conditions that make the child think the way they do. There is no gay gene, its in their brain that they think they are gay. they are making fools of themselves running around in girlish clothes and hitting on their own sex. I am not trying to be rude I just don't understand the evolutionary aspect and mental aspect
> 
> ...


 
yeah

i just dont think its right for them to have sexual things togetherl

like come on ... a dick inside a dick


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## kinch2002 (Mar 1, 2011)

TheManInBlack said:


> Im against "Gay" people. I don't know why it's just a natural feeling. I hate everything they do...


So are you against the state of being gay or not? You say that you are, and then say that you just don't like what they do. I know that being gay often leads to doing things that mark them out as different, but that's not the same as their status. I can't possibly see how anyone can be against the state of being gay itself.


TheManInBlack said:


> And no I am not a Jesus lover...


I hope you're not implying that followers of Jesus hate gay people. Although that might be true for some Christians, it only applies to a very small group of them nowadays. Most believe that gay acts are wrong, but that the existence of different sexual orientations is fine.


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## hatter (Mar 1, 2011)

TheManInBlack said:


> I hate everything they do.



I stopped here. Obviously you are ignorant and close minded. I'm gay and I like to cube. You're on a cubing forum and you therefore like something I like. But... You hate everything I do?

And kirjava, I mostly agree with you. However, gender =/= sexuality. I also believe gender is a spectrum and not black and white (similar to how you believe sexuality is).


I would like to hope that regardless of what any of you think of sexuality, everyone should agree that it is unconstitutional, immoral, etc to not only VOTE on the rights of people but to also take them away and/or deny them of rights. That's probay a discussion for another day, though.


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## Stefan (Mar 1, 2011)

TheManInBlack said:


> I think if signs of homosexualty is detected in a child he/she should get medical help to find *what is troubling the person*.



I'm guessing that would be people like you.



TheManInBlack said:


> i just find it disgusting and *pointless *to do what they do.



Because you would never have sex for pleasure, only for reproduction?


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## ElectricDoodie (Mar 1, 2011)

cmhardw said:


> People don't choose their sexuality, they are who they are.


 This actually hasn't been proven, and is a strong debate in the Sexual studies.
It's the whole Nature vs Nurture thing.

Also, Kir, you should take Human Sexual Behavior in college.
Really good class.


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## James Ludlow (Mar 1, 2011)

I just don't like Gok Wan.

That is all.


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## StachuK1992 (Mar 1, 2011)

Might I request for members to state their age and religion when posting?

On such topic: 17, undecided. Brought up "gay-neutral" for the most part.



Athefre said:


> I consider myself "straight" but sometimes I do feel like I could _become_ bi. Sort of like an acquired taste. Most of the time I feel like "Ew, not interested in that", but there are these rare times when I think "I could get into that eventually".


This.
For me, I see it as "I like the characteristics of person x," so I'd like to date (or whatnot) with them. Gender influences this greatly, but not to such an extent that I would never date someone of the same gender; if an instance came up in which I would want to, I would not fight myself here. Unless most males (at least the ones I've encountered), I'm absolutely open to saying whether some guy is 'cute' or whatnot; physical attractiveness and sexual desires are related, but not a direct link. While I have only been in "straight" relationships, the idea of something otherwise would not deter me from following my heart.


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## cmhardw (Mar 1, 2011)

ElectricDoodie said:


> This actually hasn't been proven, and is a strong debate in the Sexual studies.
> It's the whole Nature vs Nurture thing.


 
I'll admit that I'm certainly no expert on this topic. I definitely think it makes perfect sense that a person can consciously chose to act a different way than their inherent sexuality leads them, but that their sexuality is (mostly) determined as a core part of who they are.

Again, this is only my opinion, and I feel it doesn't carry any more weight than any other opinion in this thread. I am open to being convinced otherwise, it's just that I have not yet been.


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## Stefan (Mar 1, 2011)

kinch2002 said:


> I hope you're not implying that followers of Jesus hate gay people. Although that might be true for some Christians, it only applies to a *very small group* of them nowadays. Most believe that gay acts are wrong, but that the existence of different sexual orientations is fine.



Do you have polls or so that show this?


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## hatter (Mar 1, 2011)

If it is a choice, why are gay teens 30 to 40% more likely to commit suicide? Why would ANYONE choose to be gay? The word itself is used to describe something as "lame" or "stupid". Why would you choose to be with someone that you cannot marry and get the legal rights that marriage brings? Why would you of yourself through a much more difficult life? 


Did you know that when a woman is pregnant with a boy, her body sort of "attacks" it by releasing a chemical (maybe more estrogen? I'm on my phone so I don't want to look it up right now). The more boys a woman has, the chances her son will be gay increases and researches believe it is because of the chemicals released when she is pregnant.


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## d4m4s74 (Mar 1, 2011)

The only people who think homosexualilty is a choice, are people who themselves are bisexual.

But seriously, I have straight friends, I have gay friends and I've dated both straight girls and gay guys (yes, I'm bi, deal with it), and except for who they love I don't see a real difference, so even if it's a choice (I believe it's not) why care?



hatter said:


> Did you know that when a woman is pregnant with a boy, her body sort of "attacks" it by releasing a chemical (maybe more estrogen? I'm on my phone so I don't want to look it up right now). The more boys a woman has, the chances her son will be gay increases and researches believe it is because of the chemicals released when she is pregnant.


 
inb4 Because their other sons start leaving the house mothers try to be as close to their child as possible, "mothering" them more, leading them to be more like their mother (as in loving the same thing as their mother, as in guys)
it's a default defense in the nature versus nurture thing.

for those who don't know. inb4 is a way to make sure others will not say that.


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## d4m4s74 (Mar 1, 2011)

Who else believes the man in black is simply a troll?


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## Stefan (Mar 1, 2011)

d4m4s74 said:


> Who else believes the man in black is simply a troll?


 
I was just about to say I'm 99% sure he is one.


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## StachuK1992 (Mar 1, 2011)

I'm not sure if he's a troll; it's hard to tell.
I think he's just a dumbass, personally.

Apparently he's old enough to drive. I was hoping he was 12, and just some unlearned youngin'.


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## hatter (Mar 1, 2011)

Many, many, MANY different species have been documented to having gay sex. It's natural. And if sex is only for reproduction, explain the clitoris.


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## Ordos_Koala (Mar 1, 2011)

TheManInBlack said:


> Im against "Gay" people. I don't know why it's just a natural feeling. I hate everything they do.
> 
> And no I am not a Jesus lover. I just feel that they have a mental disability from previous childhood experiences. I do not think they are born with the mind to think they are attracted to oppisite sex, I think it has to with growing up in certain conditions that make the child think the way they do. There is no gay gene, its in their brain that they think they are gay. they are making fools of themselves running around in girlish clothes and hitting on their own sex. I am not trying to be rude I just don't understand the evolutionary aspect and mental aspect
> 
> ...


 
First of all, it is not a disease. Second, even some animals are homosexuals, so you thing that its parents bit it and that's the problem or what? And what do you have against them? So they just don't have sex with women but they have with other men instead... I'm not gay, but your opinion just seems stupid to me as it's close to discrimination.


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## Sa967St (Mar 1, 2011)

StachuK1992 said:


> I'm not sure if he's a troll; it's hard to tell.
> I think he's just a dumbass, personally.


Look at the bottom of this post  http://www.speedsolving.com/forum/s...graduates-quot&p=533209&viewfull=1#post533209


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## James Ludlow (Mar 1, 2011)

Sa967St said:


> Look at the bottom of this post  http://www.speedsolving.com/forum/s...graduates-quot&p=533209&viewfull=1#post533209


 
Just ban him again.


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## StachuK1992 (Mar 1, 2011)

God: I quit trying to help you.


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## bobthegiraffemonkey (Mar 1, 2011)

I read something relevant in NewScientist once. While most people think that only straight behaviour is natural, the animal kingdom as a whole begs to differ, with many behaviours which seem strange to us. I'm fairly certain there was even a given reason for homosexual behaviour (seen surprisingly frequently in nature for something usually deemed unnatural, which is ironic), though I can't remember what it was. Don't think you can read the full article without signing in to the site though.

Personally, I'm straight. I'm >99% sure this isn't due to fitting in the social norms (I'm not that sort of person, I don't even have Facebook!), that is just how I am. I cannot personally understand being sexually attracted to another male, but I have no problem at all with others who have different preferences to myself.

Although to sort of second a previous statement, Gok Wan creeps me out.


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## James Ludlow (Mar 1, 2011)

bobthegiraffemonkey said:


> Although to sort of second a previous statement, Gok Wan creeps me out.


 
Its not because of his sexual preferences though lol. 
He just happened to be on the gogglebox when I was reading this thread lol.


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## Quadrescence (Mar 1, 2011)

People, let's not start calling people trolls just because they are defending their point, logically or not. It's a terrible reason to derail a conversation.



> Hello stefan, What I am talking about is that they may have been raised in situations that made them believe what they do. therefore it is a mental defect.



Talking about "mental defects" is a difficult matter biologically. There is a very fine meaning to what is "normal" and what is "not normal". Is it a defect that I do not have a tail, whereas my evolutionary ancestors did? Or... is it just evolution?

I am not purporting that being homosexual is a result of evolution. I am saying, however, that what you perceive as a "mental defect" could just stem from a different lineage of genes. Personally, I'd consider it a "defect" if it was debilitating. Being gay is in no way a debilitating condition. Being straight is in no way a debilitating condition.



> Gay people just tell people they were born this way, i just don't believe it.



That's fine if you don't believe it. But it would be nice if you backed up your conclusions with evidence. If it's just "gut feeling", then I would classify you more as a bigot than a rational thinker.



> And sex is for reproduction and only for that.



Have you ever eaten food, not because you felt hungry, but because the food just tastes good? I definitely have.

Or have you eaten candy? Food is for nourishment, not for pleasure. If you eat candy, drink soda, eat unhealthy foods at your choice, I will classify you as a hypocrite.

Sex is healthy. It is a form of cardiovascular exercise. It is also rewarding, as a result of dopamine levels increasing. I'll be damned if humanity stops having sex for pleasure and only does so for reproduction.



> what is the point of having sex with the same sex, what does it achieve "Pleasure" but what else, a stinky brown dick!



As I said previously, it is good for the body and mind. It is exercise. It does approximately the same things as running does. Why do people run?

As for "stinky brown dick", I am sure you're referring to the fact that some gay people have anal sex. First of all, only some people do this. There are other things (e.g., oral sex, mutual masturbation). But let's focus on the anal sex. You are implying that anal sex will cause the one penetrating to get fecal matter on their dick. This can be a possibility, if fecal matter is in the receiver's rectum. However. Feces are stored there only when they are to be defecated. I don't know about you, but I personally don't like having to feel like taking a dump all the time, and cure this feeling by actually doing so appropriately.

Feces are not created in the rectum. They are created along the small intestine then removed of much water content in the large intestine. They may be in the large intestine for a while. As such, if one has defecated and one's stool is healthy, there will be no visual trace of feces in the rectum. Similarly, if a woman cleans her vagina every so often, it won't be mucked up with thick mucous generated during the month. And let's not get started about having sex with a female, and coming out with a "stinky red dick".



> and nothing else. gay people most likely need help.



Help with what? Becoming straight? Does being gay hurt them in any way? And how do you propose they get help? Get "heterosexual therapy" and force their brains to release chemicals when they see and think about women instead of men? Changing a gay person to become straight, to me, is like changing a tomato-lover's reaction to tomatoes to something pungent and terrible. See Stanley Kubrick's film "A Clockwork Orange" for a sort of satire on this kind of thing.

Is being gay hurting anyone else in any way? I know no one is hurting me at all. And I know they can benefit from their sexuality too.

So are you just making something into a problem artificially?


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## Ordos_Koala (Mar 1, 2011)

Quadrescence said:


> Help with what? Becoming straight? Does being gay hurt them in any way? And how do you propose they get help? Get "heterosexual therapy" and force their brains to release chemicals when they see and think about women instead of men?y?


 
I heard some decades ago that was happening (before that they were mostly killed)


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## TheManInBlack (Mar 1, 2011)

My post will be removed as a lot of people were offended, I understand that I did not support my statement and I don't want to seem like a troll. This thread in itself doesn't belong on this forum and belongs in another forum where such things can be discussed in further detail. I also will note that I do not necessarily hate gay people so if you are gay and you cube I do not hate you. Although my previous statement seems to be that i hate your race but I don't. People are entitled to their beliefs. But as stated before, this topic is not good for the forum because people will judge each other for whatever their reason is. And once again i apologize to all offended.

"a troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off -topic messages in an online community"

Before you call me a troll understand its meaning.


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## Kirjava (Mar 1, 2011)

Stefan said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinsey_Scale
> 
> Looks like it does take change into consideration. Also looks like it measures actual history, how would that be invalid?



Ah, you're right. I didn't actually read up on it before posting. However, do you really think sexuality can be measured correctly? I don't think you can really rate how much you like a certain gender compared to the other, only how much you like specific people.



Stefan said:


> Not sure "sexuality" is what you're talking about, at least what Dictionary.com and Wikipedia have sounds different and surely exists.



Yeah. What I really should've said is that sexuality as a concept is artificial. It doesn't have to exist.



ElectricDoodie said:


> Also, Kir, you should take Human Sexual Behavior in college.
> Really good class.



How old do you think I am? 



hatter said:


> And kirjava, I mostly agree with you. However, gender =/= sexuality. I also believe gender is a spectrum and not black and white (similar to how you believe sexuality is).



XY/XX/etc is pretty clear cut. You're thinking of gender identity.




TheManInBlack said:


> I do not think they are born with the mind to think they are attracted to oppisite sex, I think it has to with growing up in certain conditions that make the child think the way they do.



Actually, I agree with you. However, you seem to think this is a bad thing for some reason?

*Why does it make a difference if sexuality is chosen or not? I don't need an excuse for who I am.*



TheManInBlack said:


> they are making fools of themselves running around in girlish clothes and hitting on their own sex.



sexy fools :3



TheManInBlack said:


> If you truly believe gay people are born with their disease they should have their own rooms to change in.



Nah, the people who have a problem with it should go get changed in the room for homophobes.



TheManInBlack said:


> My post will be removed as a lot of people were offended, I understand that I did not support my statement and I don't want to seem like a troll. This thread in itself doesn't belong on this forum and belongs in another forum where such things can be discussed in further detail. I also will note that I do not necessarily hate gay people so if you are gay and you cube I do not hate you. Although my previous statement seems to be that i hate your race but I don't. People are entitled to their beliefs. But as stated before, this topic is not good for the forum because people will judge each other for whatever their reason is. And once again i apologize to all offended.



You say that this topic is bad for the forum because people will judge others. You're the only one judging.

This isn't about morality of certain sexualities. You've hijacked my thread to spread ignorance.


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## flan (Mar 1, 2011)

Sa967St said:


> Look at the bottom of this post  http://www.speedsolving.com/forum/s...graduates-quot&p=533209&viewfull=1#post533209


 
He edited it. What did it say?


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## Ordos_Koala (Mar 1, 2011)

flan said:


> He edited it. What did it say?


 
he signed at the end as "TheRubiksGod"


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## qqwref (Mar 1, 2011)

Sexuality "exists" but it's certainly not as simple and linear as most people seem to believe. I think there are even a lot of people out there who think you can either be "straight" or "gay" but not both/neither/between. From personal experience there seem to be two separate continuums, from "not interested" to "incredibly attracted" for each gender.

But preference is a weird thing. People care a lot about which gender you're attracted to, but there's a ton of variation within each one (thin, fat, muscular, androgynous, very masculine/feminine, etc.) which causes just as many complications. In addition, I think it's actually possible to train yourself to be attracted to something, consciously or accidentally, in the same way you could train yourself to enjoy the taste of a food you previously found unpleasant. There's a lot going on in human sexuality, and it's a really interesting subject to study in depth.



hatter said:


> If it is a choice, why are gay teens 30 to 40% more likely to commit suicide?


I don't mean to undermine your point, but I think most people would say being goth is a choice, and the rate of attempted suicide is a lot higher in that subculture.



hatter said:


> Did you know that when a woman is pregnant with a boy, her body sort of "attacks" it by releasing a chemical (maybe more estrogen? I'm on my phone so I don't want to look it up right now).


Are you referring to androgens?


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## uberCuber (Mar 1, 2011)

although this is a serious topic, I couldn't help but lol at some of the posts in this thread..

I have always been completely neutral as far as this issue goes. I have never judged someone for their sexuality in any way, and I think that's how it should be.


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## DavidWoner (Mar 1, 2011)

A note on non-reproductive sexual activity- 

So far I've only seen people make arguments based on the idea that since we do many other things for pleasure, sex for pleasure should be just as acceptable. I agree with this, but I think it's insufficient justification in a lot of cases (Maybe not insufficient, but not even close to the strongest point that could be made). When sexual activity is used as an expression of love, it can have an enormous emotional impact and greatly strengthen the bond between two people. The hormones released during and after intercourse actually _chemically_ attach the mates to one another. So not only is the relationship strengthened by the learned social behaviors that accompany sex, but there is an actual _biological change_ bonding two people that cannot be achieved through other means. 

It seems opponents of non-reproductive sex try to associate it with care-free, multi-partner, hedonism but in many cases this is not even remotely close to the truth.

Relating to Thom's OP: When sex as used not as a tool for satisfying lust, but as a means of strengthening bonds with *whomever you love*, then the lines of sexuality become very blurred. In my opinion, sexuality is nothing more than a statistical measure of which gender you have a greater preference for forming sexual bonds with.


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## Escher (Mar 1, 2011)

TheManInBlack said:


> My post will be removed as a lot of people were offended, I understand that I did not support my statement and I don't want to seem like a troll. This thread in itself doesn't belong on this forum and belongs in another forum where such things can be discussed in further detail. I also will note that I do not necessarily hate gay people so if you are gay and you cube I do not hate you. Although my previous statement seems to be that i hate your race but I don't. People are entitled to their beliefs. But as stated before, this topic is not good for the forum because people will judge each other for whatever their reason is. And once again i apologize to all offended.
> 
> "a troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off -topic messages in an online community"
> 
> Before you call me a troll understand its meaning.


 
"a troll is someone who posts inflammatory etc"
...
"if you are gay and you cube I do not hate you"
"my previous statement seems to be that i hate your race but I don't"

Implying being gay makes you a member of a 'race' of people seems inflammatory to me, especially when in earlier posts you seem to believe that they're evolutionary a dead end. What is a sub-race but something you consider evolutionarily inferior? I don't think it's hard to see where your thinking leads you, regardless of how much you protest.

Just take a look throughout history as to what happens when society decides to create a class of people and describe them as biologically different and lesser and you'll see why we assume you must be a troll.


Anyway,
I had a good convo with OP about this quite a while ago... The concept of a few, secure classes of sexuality is a modern myth and they make little sense. In reality if people are to be grouped together by their sexual choices and thoughts then the situation is much more complex and is not adequately described by 'if you had one x experience while you were y then you must be bi'. If you look throughout history at peoples attitudes to sexual behaviour it's not hard to find thousands of instances across cultures of everybody getting with everybody. Just look at the Renaissance period art to see how much the culture appreciated both the male and female form...

Personally, I'm far too lazy to try and decide 'what I am'.


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## Kian (Mar 1, 2011)

http://www.ehow.com/how_2000106_become-pseudo-intellectual.html


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## DavidWoner (Mar 1, 2011)

Kirjava said:


> However, do you really think sexuality can be measured correctly? I don't think you can really rate how much you like a certain gender compared to the other, only how much you like specific people."



Yes like I said (after this post), it's a statistic based on previous data that can be used as a loose predictor of future behavior. The wonderful thing about statistics is that they inherently _cannot_ be matters of black and white. So just because someone has only been with members of one sex their entire life, it does not preclude them from being with someone of the other sex in the future.

tl;dr: "Sexuality" is a measure of probability.


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## Cool Frog (Mar 1, 2011)

I like a lot of these posts, I really like the quote Chris Hardwick posted.

Kirjava out of curiosity, when did you first have a girlfriend?


I think bisexuality is natural, but how society views it has changed the look of many people on that natural (mentality?)

Most of my friends have the same views as me on this subject, and usually I don't make friends with very close minded people.


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## Stefan (Mar 1, 2011)

Kirjava said:


> However, do you really think sexuality can be measured correctly? I don't think you can really rate how much you like a certain gender compared to the other, *only how much you like specific people*.



Good point. Also depends on who you happen to meet, if you're bi and only happen to come across hot girls and ugly guys, you might end up on the hetero end of the scale just because of that. Well, I think you gotta take that scale for what it is - it measures what it measures. Apparently it was introduced to challenge the idea that people can be neatly divided into hetero and homo and to demonstrate the continuum in between.

_“It is a characteristic of the human mind that tries to dichotomize in its classification of phenomena….Sexual behavior is either normal or abnormal, socially acceptable or unacceptable, heterosexual or homosexual; and *many persons do not want to believe that there are gradations* in these matters from one to the other extreme.”_
-- http://www.kinseyinstitute.org/research/ak-hhscale.html

It can't 100% accurately measure your preference, but it certainly is more accurate and useful than just black-or-white classification.


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## Johan444 (Mar 1, 2011)

Lips softness are not dependant on gender


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## ianography (Mar 1, 2011)

Yeah, I'm strongly in favor of homosexuality, even though I'm straight. I have very close relatives of mine that are gay and my mother has always been around gay people growing up.

In my opinion, this topic should never be brought up, considering gay people are just as normal as straight people, only the tiniest bit different. Also, I think that somebody already said this, but it's very similar to the discrimination against blacks.


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## cuberkid10 (Mar 1, 2011)

I personally believe that homosexuality is born and is not a choice. LGBTQ people are no different than straight people. People shouldn't see gender, they should just see somebody as a human being.


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## aronpm (Mar 1, 2011)

Kirjava said:


> I think that the main thing keeping people in 'heterosexual' or otherwise mindsets is not being open to allowing themselves to feel anything else, and even going to the point of deluding themselves into ignoring feelings that they don't see as acceptable. Maybe if people weren't so tainted by thoughts like this they'd come to the realisation that gender simply isn't as important as how much you like a specific person.
> 
> I find it hard to believe that someone could say that they would never be attracted to someone that doesn't fit within their spectrum of sexuality. How can you be so sure? Just because it's not happened so far doesn't mean it never will. Sure, if you keep telling yourself that and don't allow anything to happen - it never will. However, I'm sure that if you didn't refuse thoughts like this they may stumble into your brain sooner or later. You may even enjoy them!


 
So if I don't want to suck some dude's dick, I'm close minded? Not everyone is pansexual.


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## DavidWoner (Mar 1, 2011)

Saying that you will never be attracted to a man and not wanting "to suck some dude's dick" are not the same thing.


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## Whyusosrs? (Mar 1, 2011)

Leonardo Dicaprio <3


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## cuberkid10 (Mar 1, 2011)

aronpm said:


> So if I don't want to suck some dude's dick, I'm close minded? Not everyone is pansexual.


 
Relationships aren't always about sex..


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## aronpm (Mar 1, 2011)

DavidWoner said:


> Saying that you will never be attracted to a man and not wanting "to suck some dude's dick" are not the same thing.


 
I used that as a substitute for being sexually attracted to a guy. But my point remains.


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## James Ludlow (Mar 1, 2011)

cuberkid10 said:


> Relationships aren't always about sex..


 
Sex isn't always about relationships...

I'm gonna edit this post, because thus far I haven't really added anything.

Basically, I really couldn't give a toss what/who anybody does/doesn't. Ultimately its up to them (or indeed not).

This nature/nurture theory gets used for anything - criminals, drug addicts etc. I'd probably side with the nurture with these two examples, but as far as sexuality is concerned - I'd probably opt with nature.


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## IngeniousBanana (Mar 1, 2011)

cmhardw said:


> I love Louis C.K.'s take on sexuality. His view is that discrimination based on sexual preference is one of the strangest discriminations there is. When a group racially discriminates against another race, as Louis puts it, and I'm paraphrasing here as I don't remember his exact words, it goes something like "You people are terrible, get away from us. Go over there and be with each other, don't be near us." But with discrimination based on sexuality, more specifically discrimination against any sexuality that is non-hetero, the phrasing is more like "You people are terrible, come over and be with us (other heteros). Don't be with each other, that's terrible! Be with us!"
> 
> In regards to sexuality I'm generally of the opinion that people should be whatever it is that they are, as long as being who they are does not infringe on the rights of another person to be happy and be who they are. People don't choose their sexuality, they are who they are. Discriminating against a person for their sexuality is no different than discriminating against them for the color of their skin, or where they were born.


 
Louis CK is the man!


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## Kirjava (Mar 1, 2011)

DavidWoner said:


> tl;dr: "Sexuality" is a measure of probability.



We spoke on IRC about this and I think it's a nice way of looking at it - I'd never considered it like this before.

This is how sexuality /should/ be viewed.



Cool Frog said:


> Kirjava out of curiosity, when did you first have a girlfriend?.



idk I was like 14. Lasted for a week lol.



Stefan said:


> It can't 100% accurately measure your preference, but it certainly is more accurate and useful than just black-or-white classification.



True, I guess it's like how High School Exams measure how good you are at High School Exams. Not an exact measure of intellect, but related.



aronpm said:


> So if I don't want to suck some dude's dick, I'm close minded? Not everyone is pansexual.



You're seriously misinterpreting what I was saying.


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## Tortin (Mar 1, 2011)

Kirjava said:


> XY/XX/etc is pretty clear cut. You're thinking of gender identity.


 
I thought the physical stuff was sex and the emotional stuff was gender?

Anyway, back to the original question: I feel like for a lot of people, sexuality is fluid, for whatever reason. And even for people that ID as monosexual, there are 'exceptions' (though maybe not many). I remember seeing a stat somewhere (not completely sure of its validity, but it's interesting nonetheless) saying that a tiny amount (~2%) of people only ever felt attraction to one sex exclusively without any exceptions, though many people have a stroooong preference to one sex or the other.

And, in the end, I don't think it really matters what other people ID as. If it's a result of closemindedness, then they're really the only ones that are losing.


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## qqwref (Mar 1, 2011)

The gender argument brings up a question of compromise: for someone who's only interested in women (for instance), how much compromise is acceptable? Could you be physically attracted to a woman who is congenitally infertile? How about someone who is biologically female but mentally identifies as male (pre-treatment transsexual)? How about someone who looks female but is genetically male? How about a man who looks and acts just like a woman, until you look very closely? And so on. I guess what I'm really asking is, on the deepest level, is the attraction to the gender itself, or to characteristics that almost entirely fall on one side of the gender spectrum?


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## musicninja17 (Mar 1, 2011)

17, 'Christian' ( in my own little nitsche...I hate people who are all uptight on religion )
i'd consider myself 100% straight....i've never been attracted to other men, and I have a huge problem with people that think it's okay to be telling other people how they should feel about things. I don't think one should even care about the sexual identity of others if all they're going to do is hate.

On the compromise thing....i believe attraction is a mix of physical and emotional attraction and not of the straight 'i like this gender' or 'i like this gender' type in those cases. You can be attracted to the female personality without being physically attracted to them. Or vice versa and swapped.


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## DavidWoner (Mar 1, 2011)

Tortin said:


> I thought the physical stuff was sex and the emotional stuff was gender?


 
You are correct. Sociologically/Anthropologically speaking the term "sex" refers solely to biology, and "gender" refers solely to behavior. They are often used interchangeably in common speech though.


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## Logan (Mar 1, 2011)

15/ Undecided, atheist at times, but mostly Christian (Methodist)



musicninja17 said:


> 17, 'Christian' ( in my own little nitsche...I hate people who are all uptight on religion )
> i'd consider myself 100% straight....*i've never been attracted to other men*, and I have a huge problem with people that think it's okay to be telling other people how they should feel about things. I don't think one should even care about the sexual identity of others if all they're going to do is hate.
> 
> On the compromise thing....i believe attraction is a mix of physical and emotional attraction and not of the straight 'i like this gender' or 'i like this gender' type in those cases. You can be attracted to the female personality without being physically attracted to them. Or vice versa and swapped.


 
I really doubt this. I'm sure there has been a time when you've looked at an attractive (according to most) man, and thought that he was good looking. I know I've done this. I'm straight, but there are those moments (like Athefre said) where you think "I could see myself being into that eventually". It's natural to be curious; To wonder what it would be like, or perhaps even imagine it. 

I have no problem with people with a different sexual preference than I. I view discriminating people based solely on their sexual orientation as racist, and just as bad IMO, in general, as hating blacks.

All in all, ignorant people are ignorant. Gays are just the same as everyone else. They like sex. So do you. Just think of them as someone whose favorite sex position is different from yours.

--I may add to this later--

EDIT: Also, a question for you all (stolen from PKA (a podcast)): If you were married and magically switched bodies with your spouse. Would you have sex just to see what it was like?


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## cuberkid10 (Mar 1, 2011)

I believe the most annoying thing is when people bring religion into sexuality. I've been told many times, "Jesus said its a sin, so any gay person is rotting in hell becuase Jesus said it was bad"


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## Nestor (Mar 1, 2011)

Agree with you Logan.

I believe that homosexuality can also be brought up by pure emotional factors, not just physical/hereditary or psychological ones produced by the environment. I'm straight but if my wife would have been born a man, I would have become gay right away. She thinks the same.

As an example, I happen to know a girl who at her early 30's became in love with long time friend... got her heart crushed though, as her friend politely declined any further dealings with her.


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## nlCuber22 (Mar 1, 2011)

I agree with the above and Athefre. Why should you care what another person's sexual orientation is? Sure, I'm straight. But I do notice the the level of physical and emotional attractiveness of individuals of the same gender. I personally have never been attracted to another male, but I've definitely thought "haha, look at that ugly bastard" or "he's annoying" or "he's a pretty good looking dude" or "he's pretty cool, I'd hang out with him." Does that make me homosexual in the least? No, it does not. I think it's possible to be a born homo/bisexual or to develop a sexuality other than being "straight" in your lifetime. You could change from one sexuality to another simply because of your own feelings, or maybe because of the influence of someone else.


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## The Puzzler (Mar 2, 2011)

I am straight (I believe) and don't have anything against another sexuality. However society trys to force everyone to be straight and explain how horrible being anything but straight is. It's peoples lives and I believe tat they should be able to do anything they want as long as it doesn't hurt anyones rights. People who think being gay is disgusting have the right to say their opinions, but they should be open to hear other peoples opinions before just saying,"No, I don't care. Your wrong and I'm right." (reminds me of my bro.) I mean if you are attracted to someone don't let others tell you its weird or "notnormal" just do what you feel. I believe I'm straight most of the time, but I really wouldn't be that ashamed if I were anything else.


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## The Puzzler (Mar 2, 2011)

One other thing I forgot to say is that gay people or bi always are really nice and never bully you. Everyone also overuses the word gay.


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## FatBoyXPC (Mar 2, 2011)

hatter: "Then what is the point of the clitoris?" I know you didn't ask why is it there, and you were making a point with it, but the reason it exists is because it's an undeveloped penis. Everybody is born with both, and that final chromosome is what decides what stays and what goes.

This issue is such a touchy subject, and I'm surprised this thread has been kept this clean. Except for TheRubik'sGod, but whatever.

I'll flat out admit this: I generally bash gay people. I'm just not into it. You'll hear me crack gay jokes, and come on, they're generally pretty funny. So are fat jokes, racist jokes, and (the few that aren't over used) your mom jokes.

That being said: I have a very close friend who I found out is gay. Honestly, had I known he was gay when we met, I'd have never let myself get close to him. Call this mean, call this wrong, but it's how I am. When I was young, I was brought up in a pretty anti-gay environment until my teenage years. That friend and I are incredibly close now, and as disgusting as I think it is that he has a boyfriend, I'm still incredibly close to him, would hate to lose him as a friend, and I've spent time around him with his boyfriend.

I've had extensive debates with people about this very subject. Unless you argue the biblical aspect of it, you can't win a "Homosexuality is wrong" argument (unless you set up some hypothetical situations). Marriage as a whole promotes the economy, this includes Gay Marriage. One of my strong opinions about gay marriage, is more about gay parents adopting. Kids these days receive a lot of flack for being gay, and having gay parents, etc. This will ultimately make or break a kid. People have used counter arguments about "so is being black, being fat, etc." but flat out, at least in my small redneck town, the gayer you act, seem, or rumored, the more you have to deal with. Unfortunately, the only way for this to change is to let society see gay people. The more we rule it out, the worse it gets. Segregation ended years ago, but you don't have to go far to see black/white issues.

I don't really feel like this sort of topic can go much of anywhere other than people posting their opinions. I was really hoping when I read the thread title that this thread would be more about libido / sexual activity, than it would be about homo vs hetero sexuality.


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## NeedReality (Mar 2, 2011)

I'm 17, pantheist, and straight. I see nothing wrong with homosexuality/homosexuals as long as they just want to be treated equally/not infringe on others' rights. I can definitely see how you guys are saying that sexuality is not 100% certain, because when I meet a guy I do think whether he is attractive or not (physically/emotionally). However, when any thoughts of intimacy come into my mind, I get sort of disgusted. I'm not sure if that's due to how I was raised, but I can't, at least as of now, see myself in a relationship with another man. 

qq does bring up a good point though. I wonder if it's just the emotional/physical characteristics commonly associated with women that I'm attracted to. Weird to think about.


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## DavidWoner (Mar 2, 2011)

This thread is about how sexuality is defined, not whether various forms of sexuality are right or wrong. And it is certainly not the place for a religious bawwww-fest. Any further posts in that direction will warrant whatever punishment I see fit.


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## Chapuunka (Mar 2, 2011)

EDIT: Taking it to PM. If anyone wants to see what I said, just ask.


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## JonnyWhoopes (Mar 2, 2011)

Chapuunka said:


> EDIT: Taking it to PM. If anyone wants to see what I said, just ask.


 
Same. If you want a heavy dose of Christian lifestyle, you know where to look.


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## Kirjava (Mar 2, 2011)

qqwref said:


> I guess what I'm really asking is, on the deepest level, is the attraction to the gender itself, or to characteristics that almost entirely fall on one side of the gender spectrum?



I think someone who identifies as strictly hetero or homo would only really date someone having a matching sex and gender. But again, it will vary from person to person.


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## Dene (Mar 2, 2011)

I just want to throw this out there. Point being, once upon a time the greatest civilisation on the planet was fully accepting of homosexual activities.

Also, something that qqwref touched on, is the idea that one is not attracted to any particular sex, but rather characteristics of a sex (let's not bring "gender" into this, it is a separate issue). My understanding of Kirjava is that he is attracted to guys that have particularly feminine characteristics. So one might ask "why go for guys then, when it's female characteristics that I desire?"
Pros: there are more options available (albeit there is not a large population of feminine males); you can avoid needy/etc. type girls that you really only want for the sex; penis maybe tastes good?
Cons: no vagina/breasts; potential for exaggeration of feminine mindedness when guys are trying to be as feminine as possible (most girls are not 100% "girly", or even close), whereas I think most guys would want a balance of feminine mindedness mixed with hardy-womanness; potential for role-confusion.

I won't bother discussing lesbianism seeing as that has been completely ignored so far.


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## waffle=ijm (Mar 2, 2011)

I consider myself straight. but I do have a "guys I'd go for" list. I'm not scared to show affection for the same gender, I see nothing wrong with being attracted to someone no matter the sex. I love rainbows and puppies.


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## uberCuber (Mar 2, 2011)

16, agnostic



Logan said:


> I really doubt this. I'm sure there has been a time when you've looked at an attractive (according to most) man, and thought that he was good looking.



I can legitimately say this has never happened to me. It just simply doesn't occur to me to think about another man being handsome. But is it because I consider myself forced by society to be strictly heterosexual? No. Do I care if other men think that way? Not at all. 



The Puzzler said:


> Everyone also overuses the word gay.



"straight" too. I just don't like the use of that specific word to describe heterosexuality. It just comes across to me too much as saying "this is normal" and implying that anything else is strange



Also, I can make the true statement that proportionally, there are more heterosexual people that I dislike than non-hetero people.


Spoiler



lol


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## Andreaillest (Mar 2, 2011)

Agreed with waffo. I'm straight, but I can look at other girls and say "damn, she looks good." Consider it a compliment. I definitely have my list of girlies I'd go lesbo for. It's just a matter of how comfortable you are with your sexuality. Also, I have a cousin who is gay. It hurts to see that there are people out there who can't accept him based on his orientation.


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## maggot (Mar 2, 2011)

wow. 

in my opinion, sexuality does indeed exist. sexuality in terms of sexual preference is irrelevant. sexuality as in drive/libido does indeed exist (the capacity we have for sexual experiences).

there are many many many arguments in all areas of science about this topic. i think the most important thing to be noted about sexuality in terms of sexual preference is that any behavior (in humans at least) is not proven to be linked to genetics (at least in preference over one gender). in my opinion, i believe sexual preference is psycholocial (mostly social) however to be mentioned; oedipus complexes, reversed oedipal complexes, and westermarck effects. among other things for sexuality; social accpetance, religious beliefs, traumatic responses.

i think that puberty has little effect on sexual preference, it is just the driving force behind acting upon behaviors which they have learned to be socially acceptable. maybe not even "learned" as much as what behaviors they believe would make them more socially accepted. i think more and more with every generation we are leaning more towards gender neutral in terms of sexual attraction. and in my opinion, more animalistic behavior. like someone stated about thinking that any gender is attractive, i believe the thoughts that race through our mind are becoming less conflicted by social acceptance (as homosexuality is becoming more and more socially accepted). therefore, the probability that one would think about having sex with this attraction is higher.

also, getting attention, in any sort of form, makes you more socially accepted. wether it is by the socially acceptable group to the majority or a minority, sometimes this is also a driving factor to sexual preference. also the ever so popular conversation amongst homosexual partners, my partner knows what to do to me sexually because they know what they like and they do it to me. i know the OP didn't really mean sexuality in terms of a capacity for sexual encounters, however with the decreasing oppression of homosexuals/bisexuals, i believe the more sexuality one has (now a days) the more apt they are to have a bisexual/homosexual encounter and find that they like it. lets face it, its sex. sex is great.

and to talk about sexuality as a sexual preference, but not in the topic of sex, but other attractions like loving your partner, i believe that all humans can love another. in my personal opinion, i have a hard time finding love with the opposite sex in the way i would with my wife ONLY because she is the mother to my children. other than that, i would be able to find the same love that i have for my wife in a man. and most definately i wouldnt reject the opportunity with a sexual encounter with a man, if the opportunity presented itself in the right way. i mean, a man knows what i like without having to tell them/show them?

i admit i am not seeking to find a relationship with a man, but only because i already have a deep relationship with my wife. however, if i wasnt in this relationship, im not sure if i would seek a man or not. i guess i'm a little far from my sexual prime and i dont typically think sexually when i see an attractive man, or woman for that matter. of course, if a woman is naked or presenting herself in a sexual fashion, i naturally think sexually. but a man, i tend to compare. i guess its just my nature. and at this time in my life, i really dont care about the social factor. im not in highschool anymore lol.

edit: to touch on what dene stated: 

to be attracted to a male with feminine characteristics could be an underlying dominance complex. imagine a male who was bullied as a child? the need to feel dominating over another male as an act of retaliation? i agree with your comment about role confusion, however i dont think that would be the case in a dominance complex in which the role must be absolute, to dominate over the male. but, i think kirjava's relationships with males go much deeper than sexual, dont be so naive. and not to say that kirjava has a dominance complex, as i do not know him at all, but it could be a more probable explanation than penis tastes good.

also, to say that a con is no breasts/vagina, only if he desired a female but in fact chose a male for a sexual partner would this be true. like i state in my post, when talking with homosexual partners about sex, the single most stated thing is how good it feels because they know what i like because they are the same gender as me. also, for males there is a pitcher/catcher, so some males find pleasure not having to be the one doing the work, or being the one to bring pleasure. just let that steep a little bit and you might be able to understand that one. i dont want to go much further with that one.

also, there is also the oedipus complex, however in gender identity crisis. maybe he seeks males sexually, but emotionally wants to be with one like his mother? there are just so many factors that are not sexual. and if you meant that it was a con that he seeks a feminine male that has no breasts/vagina? maybe its just what is sexually unattractive?


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## musicninja17 (Mar 2, 2011)

Logan said:


> I really doubt this. I'm sure there has been a time when you've looked at an attractive (according to most) man, and thought that he was good looking. I know I've done this. I'm straight, but there are those moments (like Athefre said) where you think "I could see myself being into that eventually". It's natural to be curious; To wonder what it would be like, or perhaps even imagine it.
> 
> EDIT: Also, a question for you all (stolen from PKA (a podcast)): If you were married and magically switched bodies with your spouse. Would you have sex just to see what it was like?



Just because I can tell if a guy isn't ugly does not mean i'm attracted to him. And no, i'm not curious....yes anyone can imagine something like that, but it's not for me. 
...


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## Logan (Mar 2, 2011)

musicninja17 said:


> Just because I can tell if a guy isn't ugly does not mean i'm attracted to him. And no, i'm not curious....yes anyone can imagine something like that, but it's not for me.
> ...


 
All I'm saying is no one is really "100% straight". We're all a little gay sometimes.


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## PatrickJameson (Mar 2, 2011)

TheManInBlack said:


> If you truly believe gay people are born with their disease they should have their own rooms to change in.



Despite the rage people have had against TheManInBlack, this is a good point. However, I've previously thought of it a but differently of course: instead of continually separating different sexual orientations everyone should just share whatever and not care. Obviously this wouldn't work in modern society, however, even though the main reason we separate is because of sexual orientation.


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## musicninja17 (Mar 2, 2011)

Logan said:


> All I'm saying is no one is really "100% straight". We're all a little gay sometimes.


 
All i'm saying as that i'm not a "little gay sometimes"....
Some people would look at this and say that i'm insecure about my sexual orientation.
I just don't like people calling me things that i'm not. That applies to like everything I do.
Maybe you're not 100% straight, but I'd like to think i'm pretty close.
I don't find the male personality attractive in nearly any way, as I don't get excited over the male physicality either.
And that's okay either way, for either of us.


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## Dene (Mar 2, 2011)

PatrickJameson said:


> Despite the rage people have had against TheManInBlack, this is a good point. However, I've previously thought of it a but differently of course: instead of continually separating different sexual orientations everyone should just share whatever and not care. Obviously this wouldn't work in modern society, however, even though the main reason we separate is because of sexual orientation.


 
The problem is that, firstly, children know that they are different. So curiosity is going to lead to a variety of problems.

There will also be embarrassment for different children. Of course, perhaps if the entire mentality of society changed so that no one cared about the physical form then there would be no issues. However I think this is impossible; there is a lot of evidence to show genetic preferences for various traits, such as waist-hip ratio, which explains why corsets are so sexy. 

I don't think I even need to bother explaining why this would be a horrible idea with teenagers/adults. Rates of sexual assault would go through the roof.


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## uberCuber (Mar 2, 2011)

musicninja17 said:


> All i'm saying as that i'm not a "little gay sometimes"....
> Some people would look at this and say that i'm insecure about my sexual orientation.
> I just don't like people calling me things that i'm not. That applies to like everything I do.
> Maybe you're not 100% straight, but I'd like to think i'm pretty close.
> ...



this post pretty much sums up exactly what I wanted to say


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## riffz (Mar 2, 2011)

I've never felt an attraction to a male before.

I say do what makes you happy. I respect whatever someone chooses or feels compelled to do. It's none of my concern anyway.


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## PatrickJameson (Mar 2, 2011)

Dene said:


> The problem is that, firstly, children know that they are different. So curiosity is going to lead to a variety of problems.
> 
> There will also be embarrassment for different children. Of course, perhaps if the entire mentality of society changed so that no one cared about the physical form then there would be no issues. However I think this is impossible; there is a lot of evidence to show genetic preferences for various traits, such as waist-hip ratio, which explains why corsets are so sexy.
> 
> I don't think I even need to bother explaining why this would be a horrible idea with teenagers/adults. Rates of sexual assault would go through the roof.


 
Depends what we are making unisex. I'm unsure what TheManInBlack meant when he said, "rooms to change in". If he means changing rooms such as those found in US stores(unsure about how other countries do stuff), then there's nothing to discuss. I assume he meant, "locker rooms" such as those found in gyms. A more mild example would be unisex restrooms. I don't know of many cases where children would partake in such activities such as joining a gym, so I don't think that would be a problem. Possible teenager/adult assaults would definitely be a problem in a public area such as a gym locker room. A more mild area such as a restroom would be perfectly fine the way I see it.

Regardless, the topic of those with non-standard sexualities can still be used. Sure, the chances of assaults occurring are quite low, however it can be speculated whether it's fine to be able to be attracted to the same sex which you change with, as that a large reason why we split males and females in the first place.


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## qqwref (Mar 2, 2011)

If the idea behind gender-segregated locker rooms is to prevent people who are attracted to each other from changing together, and you tried to apply that idea to homosexuality and bisexuality, wouldn't that mean that:
- each gay man would have to be in a separate room with at most one person (who would have to be a lesbian), and vice versa
- each bisexual person would have to be in a separate room by themselves?
Seems like this would be pretty hard to deal with for a school/gym.


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## Dene (Mar 2, 2011)

I think the idea is not to separate based on whom one finds attractive, but rather to separate based on the physical differences, namely, males have penises and females have vaginas and breasts. The reason they are separated on physical characteristics is, I think, a traditional social custom that I believe is still perfectly acceptable. I think it's more to do with being comfortable around those who are the "same" as you, and not being embarrassed by those of the opposite sex, for whatever reason one might find that embarrassing (such as when pubic hair starts to grow, and when size of penises/breasts becomes topical in teenage years). A lot of people still feel uncomfortable changing in public areas (such as swimming pools) in front of other people, regardless of whether they are all guys or all girls.


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## qqwref (Mar 2, 2011)

I was replying to the person who said it would make sense for gay men to have separate rooms to change in - I don't think it does make sense (even if you assume it's a good idea to segregate people based on sexual orientation).


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## ElectricDoodie (Mar 2, 2011)

Wow, fatboy and musicninja pretty much summed up everything I wanted to say.
Good job, lol.



On to the locker room scenario.

Now, I thought the reason I couldn't change in the same locker room as a girl, was because I want to touch her boobs. That's because I am straight, and like looking at hot girls.
So, wouldn't this mean that for a gay guy, he would also want to look at the hot guys? Meaning he gets to do so, since he changes with other guys.

Now, for an actual anecdote to back myself up.
This will get naughty, so don't continue reading if you don't want to.
I have a lesbian friend. In High School, we had gym class together. Whenever we had to change in the locker rooms, she used to watch this one really hot girl change, then go in the bathroom and finger herself with the image of that girl changing. So, yes, it does happen.


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## izovire (Mar 2, 2011)

Homosexuality has bothered me on a couple occasions (that I won't discuss here). But other than that I have no problem with it. What really bothers me the most is how Religion destroys gay rights. My cousin is gay and his parents (my aunt and uncle) and my grandparents brought him to church to try and cast the demon out of him... which was totally abusive. This all happened when he was 17 and was very unsure about whether his sexuality was good or bad to the rest of the world. I actually stepped in to support him and I got into the circle of argument with the family... At first they thought I was gay also, simply because I was giving support. It turned out that I received more crap thereafter for being Atheist and "worshipping the Devil" :fp


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## Bapao (Mar 2, 2011)

aronpm said:


> So if I don't want to suck some dude's dick, I'm close minded? Not everyone is pansexual.


 
I 2nd this. 
I don't choose to be heterosexual, I just am. 
I'm not suppressing homosexual feelings due to social taboos as there's nothing there to suppress; I just don't dig guys.


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## d4m4s74 (Mar 2, 2011)

The changing room thing might have some merit. I mean, there's a men and there's a woman's changing room, the reason they're segregated is probably because girls don't want guys to see them naked and the other way around.
So having homosexuals in the same changing room as you is equal to having girls in the changing room (if you're a guy) and having lesbians in the girls changing room is like having guys in there.

but hey, then you still have bisexuals, and the fact that gay guys and girls can still have sexual tension among each other. So let's just abolish the idea of group changing rooms all together.


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## amostay2004 (Mar 2, 2011)

d4m4s74 said:


> So let's just abolish the idea of group changing rooms all together.


 
+1 to that. I don't know about you people but I don't feel comfortable being naked in a room full of guys as well, whatever their sexual orientation is. Maybe that's why we don't really have such changing rooms in Malaysia


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## Stefan (Mar 2, 2011)

d4m4s74 said:


> having homosexuals in the same changing room as you is equal to having girls in the changing room (if you're a guy)



No. If you're a hetero guy, you're unlikely to feel arousal by seeing homo guys, but you might feel arousal by seeing girls (and it might show), so not equal. Or you might feel uncomfortable being seen naked by people different from you, so again not equal. I'm rather confused, because you said that yourself right before.


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## PatrickJameson (Mar 2, 2011)

Stefan said:


> No. If you're a hetero guy, you're unlikely to feel arousal by seeing homo guys, but you might feel arousal by seeing girls (and it might show), so not equal. Or you might feel uncomfortable being seen naked by people different from you, so again not equal.


 
I don't see how this carries through. If you are a homo guy you could feel arousal by seeing both homo and hetero guys. Same with females(see ElectricDoodie's story).


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## Stefan (Mar 2, 2011)

PatrickJameson said:


> I don't see how this carries through. If you are a homo guy you could feel arousal by seeing both homo and hetero guys. Same with females(see ElectricDoodie's story).


 
To show that it's not equal, it suffices to show that it's different for *some*one, doesn't need to be different for *every*one.


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## d4m4s74 (Mar 2, 2011)

I wanted to add at least for half the guys/girls (at the equal to thing), but I thought it was obvious (which makes it unnecessary info)


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## Ágoston Török (Mar 2, 2011)

I reckon if there weren't gay processions, we would expend much less time on this question. Personally that's the only thing that bothers me. Otherwise I just don't care about gay people as long as they leave me alone (and they do).


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## hatter (Mar 2, 2011)

In all honesty, separate changing rooms are not practical.

First of all, it sounds a lot like "separate but equal". It's very, very similar to the black (or HIV/AIDS) bathrooms, water fountains, etc. Also, though many gay people realize they are gay at a young age (before even knowing the word), it takes many, many years for them to become comfortable enough to be "out". Even if these changing rooms were to be implemented, you would never get all of the gays out of your changing room.

Besides, just like you aren't attracted to every girl/guy, gays aren't attracted to everyone. There is this thought, at least in America, that gays are over sexualized - they think about sex, sex, sex. While this is certainly true for some, it isn't for all. You could argue the same of males in general.


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## d4m4s74 (Mar 2, 2011)

It's said that on average, men (all races, all sexualities, all religions) think about sex every seven seconds.

anyway, you're right, separate changing rooms are not practical. First of all for the reasons you mentioned, and because even if those reasons were all null it would still cause awkward situations, for example gay guys not wanting guys they're not attracted to to see them naked. 

So I still think personal changing rooms should be an option everywhere you have to change.

Also, I don't mind changing in a public changing room, male only, straight male only or co-ed. I just understand some people are not.


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## Kirjava (Mar 2, 2011)

d4m4s74 said:


> It's said that on average, men (all races, all sexualities, all religions) think about sex every seven seconds.


 
I don't know why so many people believe this misconception. It doesn't even /sound/ true.


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## maggot (Mar 2, 2011)

as far as changing rooms, the whole statement that was made was ignorant. to say that gay people are born with a disease and so they should be segregated. that's very ignorant no matter which way you look at it. if you think the idea bestowed deep behind the ignorance is interesting, in fact there is a lot of ways that people currently get around this if they find they are uncomfortable. in japan a lot of people use public baths which are seperated by gender, but at the same time there are people who will not go to the bath because of other men who would do perverted things. it is against the law in japan to do perverted things in public, but there are baths that are practically local gay hookup areas. so, dont go? also, many people in the US in gyms or pools will change in the private shower or bathroom stall, in which they dont have to worry about people staring at them in a sexual manner amongst other more important things like lack of self confidence about the way they look. there is no reason to have seperate areas for everyone, they are already available in other ways. if you are going to give gay or bisexual people their own changing room, you might as well segregate everyone in the way of providing changing rooms for every person. otherwise, its segregation and discrimination. i dont think maninblack meant his comment in any other way than to prove his ignorance.


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## cmhardw (Mar 2, 2011)

d4m4s74 said:


> It's said that on average, men (all races, all sexualities, all religions) think about sex every seven seconds.


 
This statistic is likely exaggerated


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## FoxWolf (Mar 2, 2011)

Yeah, it's pretty arrogant to believe you need to SEPERATE gays from bathrooms/showers etc. I do think that labelling by sexuality however is very common even in this day and age. Uganda anyone?


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## DavidWoner (Mar 2, 2011)

Protip: posting about how off-topic posts are off-topic is the opposite of helping.


Separate locker rooms are pointless. It'd be easier to stop teaching our kids to associate nudity with sexuality. Besides, someone is just as/even more likely to experience arousal by watching someone stretching or exercising outside of the locker room as they are by seeing them change. Watching someone change clothes when they aren't trying to be sexy about it is kind of boring.


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## Cool Frog (Mar 2, 2011)

I was sitting in my class today. A kid made a comment about how he wished everyone would walk around naked. Another kids said "what about dudes?"... The whole class laughed, then the teacher kicks in on how he isn't even going to go into that subject...

Just found it interesting that he wouldn't talk up when the first student made the comment on all people walking around naked...

It is almost as if talking about bisexuality and sexual orientation is Taboo.


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## FoxWolf (Mar 2, 2011)

Sexual orientation is taboo, it's completely ok for persons to talk about the other sex in a sexual nature (this would include kissing in public etc.)

However, if two guys did that it would be totally gross and disgusting.

also note that I did not add females to that list, as in most scenarios it's ok for girls to do that.


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## theace (Mar 2, 2011)

Another stereotype (that might make the argument more fun I think) is that gay people are pansies - Girly men. I know that there are a some out there who are IMO unnecessarily over feminine, but a rather good friend of mine (who happens to be gay) is definitely a normal guy who talks about normal guy things like soccer and weapons and stuff. Being gay does not mean that a guy is all girly. I find this stereotype practically everywhere and it's rather annoying...

Also, to the guy above me:
Guys find guys making out to be gross on an average but we're ok with lesbians. However, I've had this talk with quite a few girls and they all seem to have a similar opinion. Lesbians are gross. Gays? Not all that much.

And it seems you are particularly against gay people. Why so? Why are lesbians not gross?

Unless of course you were talking about how things are in general.


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## joey (Mar 2, 2011)

theace said:


> Another stereotype (that might make the argument more fun I think) is that gay people are pansies - Girly men. I know that there are a some out there who are IMO unnecessarily over feminine, but a rather good friend of mine (who happens to be gay) is definitely a normal guy who talks about normal guy things like soccer and weapons and stuff. Being gay does not mean that a guy is all girly. I find this stereotype practically everywhere and it's rather annoying...
> .


 
Oh right, because the stereotype that guys like soccer and weapons is totally fine....


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## Ordos_Koala (Mar 2, 2011)

joey said:


> Oh right, because the stereotype that guys like soccer and weapons is totally fine....


 
he didn't say that all men have to talk about soccer and weapons, I'm not big fan of weapons either, but I like soccer and still I'm guy... It's just an example of things, that usually men talk about more than women (it's just fact, not steretype)


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## maggot (Mar 2, 2011)

I think that stereotyping flaming gay males and females is pointless to the argument. You would not believe how large of a percentage of gay males and females are in the closet or want to live a life as far away from the flaming stereotype as possible because that lifestyle does not suit them. They just happen to be attracted to the other person of same gender, and not even sexually sometimes...


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## joey (Mar 2, 2011)

Ordos_Koala said:


> he didn't say that all men have to talk about soccer and weapons, I'm not big fan of weapons either, but I like soccer and still I'm guy... It's just an example of things, that usually men talk about more than women (it's just fact, not steretype)


 
He said "like normal guys", implying that you aren't normal if you don't talk about those things. Or if you are a girl, it's not normal to talk about them.


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## Logan (Mar 2, 2011)

Logan said:


> All I'm saying is no one is really "*100%* straight". We're all a little gay sometimes.





musicninja17 said:


> All i'm saying as that i'm not a "little gay sometimes"....
> Some people would look at this and say that i'm insecure about my sexual orientation.
> I just don't like people calling me things that i'm not. That applies to like everything I do.
> Maybe you're not 100% straight, but I'd like to think i'm* pretty close*.
> ...



Pretty close =/= 100%


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## Deleted member 2222 (Mar 2, 2011)

I personally believe homosexuality is a choice, and not something you are born with. I know 2 identical twins, one of them is gay, and one of them is not. Identical twins have the same genetic makeup, and the same DNA. One would think that if homosexuality is something that you're born with, either both twins would have to be gay or both straight. I also know people that have switched back and forth, I think your 'orientation' is something you choose.


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## DavidWoner (Mar 2, 2011)

bobbyfearfactor said:


> I personally believe homosexuality is a choice, and not something you are born with. I know 2 identical twins, one of them is gay, and one of them is not.


 
Or it is possibly latent in the one who is not gay. You can't say for sure.


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## flan (Mar 2, 2011)

bobbyfearfactor said:


> I personally believe homosexuality is a choice, and not something you are born with. I know 2 identical twins, one of them is gay, and one of them is not. Identical twins have the same genetic makeup, and the same DNA. One would think that if homosexuality is something that you're born with, either both twins would have to be gay or both straight. I also know people that have switched back and forth, I think your 'orientation' is something you choose.


 
Just because its (perhaps) not genetic doesn't mean its a choice. It could be down to other factors such as mothers hormones during birth, to name one possibility.


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## Johan444 (Mar 2, 2011)

bobbyfearfactor said:


> I also know people that have switched back and forth



Are they christian? Why did they switch?



bobbyfearfactor said:


> I think your 'orientation' is something you choose.



When did you choose your 'orientation'? What was your thought about sexual relationships before your choice? How did you do your choice in practice?


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## hatter (Mar 2, 2011)

bobbyfearfactor said:


> I personally believe homosexuality is a choice, and not something you are born with. I know 2 identical twins, one of them is gay, and one of them is not. Identical twins have the same genetic makeup, and the same DNA. One would think that if homosexuality is something that you're born with, either both twins would have to be gay or both straight. I also know people that have switched back and forth, I think your 'orientation' is something you choose.


 

I know 2 identical twins. One of them was born with only 8 fingers (the three fingers on his one hand are evenly spread out in a way that it isn't like he is "missing" the other two, if that makes sense).


also, identical twins don't have the same dna


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## Stefan (Mar 2, 2011)

bobbyfearfactor said:


> I know 2 identical twins, one of them is gay, and one of them is not.



Yeah, heterosexuality is a choice, both were born gay but one chose to become straight.



bobbyfearfactor said:


> I also know people that have switched back and forth



A.k.a. bisexual.


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## Tortin (Mar 2, 2011)

theace said:


> Another stereotype (that might make the argument more fun I think) is that gay people are pansies - Girly men. I know that there are a some out there who are IMO *unnecessarily over feminine,* but a rather good friend of mine (who happens to be gay) is definitely a normal guy who talks about normal guy things like soccer and weapons and stuff. Being gay does not mean that a guy is all girly. I find this stereotype practically everywhere and it's rather annoying...
> 
> Also, to the guy above me:
> Guys find guys making out to be gross on an average but we're ok with lesbians. However, I've had this talk with quite a few girls and they all seem to have a similar opinion. Lesbians are gross. Gays? Not all that much.
> ...


 
Being yourself = being unnecessarily feminine? What's wrong with being feminine?


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## StachuK1992 (Mar 2, 2011)

And how are you defining feminine?


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## qqwref (Mar 2, 2011)

Stefan said:


> bobbyfearfactor said:
> 
> 
> > I also know people that have switched back and forth
> ...


If they're actually switching, they're not bisexual by the definition most people use. But I'd say most people who switch between sexual orientations either don't fully understand themselves, or are trying to change themselves to fit some kind of outside expectation.


The feminine gay men debate is kind of interesting, but it's important to remember that some part of that is actually cultural. There was a whole "gay culture" a while back that promoted acting that way for some people, and while that culture isn't really prevalent anymore (due to AIDS and increasing acceptance of homosexuals, among other things) some echoes of it still linger on. So sure, it is a bit weird, but I think there are more gay people who act that way because they think they should than gay people who act that way because it's really how they are.

There's also the related idea of dominance in a relationship, which would be interesting to see people's opinions about. Some people seem to want to have power over their partner ("being the man" in the relationship), and others seem to want to submit. Both of these personalities appear in all genders and sexual orientations.


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## Tortin (Mar 2, 2011)

qqwref said:


> If they're actually switching, they're not bisexual by the definition most people use. But I'd say most people who switch between sexual orientations either don't fully understand themselves, or are trying to change themselves to fit some kind of outside expectation.
> 
> 
> The feminine gay men debate is kind of interesting, but it's important to remember that some part of that is actually cultural. There was a whole "gay culture" a while back that promoted acting that way for some people, and while that culture isn't really prevalent anymore (due to AIDS and increasing acceptance of homosexuals, among other things) some echoes of it still linger on. So sure, it is a bit weird, but I think there are more gay people who act that way because they think they should than gay people who act that way because it's really how they are.
> ...


 
I think more gay men act 'masculine', especially if they're closeted. Being more outwardly feminine = fitting with the gay stereotype = more abuse because of it. It would be reasonable to expect that people would suppress a side of themselves to avoid negative attention, instead of the other way around.

And as for the dominance part of it...a lot of relationships (both straight and gay ones) don't have clearly defined traditional gender roles. The only reason they exist in the first place is probably because of gender stereotypes and sexism. And the way that people define dominance as 'being the man in the relationship' is kind of annoying and sexist.


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## somerandomkidmike (Mar 2, 2011)

bobbyfearfactor said:


> I personally believe homosexuality is a choice, and not something you are born with. I know 2 identical twins, one of them is gay, and one of them is not. Identical twins have the same genetic makeup, and the same DNA. One would think that if homosexuality is something that you're born with, either both twins would have to be gay or both straight. I also know people that have switched back and forth, I think your 'orientation' is something you choose.


 
Identical twins don't have identical DNA. Actually, their DNA is about the same as most brothers and sisters. Your logic is flawed.


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## Stefan (Mar 2, 2011)

qqwref said:


> If they're actually switching, they're not bisexual by the definition most people use.



Trying to find out whether they actually told him that they switched between feeling hetero and feeling homo, or whether he only observed them switching between men and women and drew a possibly false conclusion.


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## Nestor (Mar 2, 2011)

Imagine if the "300" movie would have shown the homosexual culture all Spartan soldiers had to embrace


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## Logan (Mar 3, 2011)

UnAbusador said:


> Imagine if the "300" movie would have shown the homosexual culture all Spartan soldiers had to embrace


 
Have you seen Meet the Spartans?


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## jms_gears1 (Mar 3, 2011)

I like the idea that orientation doesnt really exist (In the sense that most people percieve the word) unless you confine yourself to it. Personally i can say that I have never been attracted to another male, however that doesnt mean it could never happen. 

I think a majority of people are brought up with the notion that you either like one gender, or the other, or both. Instead of the notion that you dont have to classify yourself based on any of those assumptions, rather that you like individuals based on their personality and certain physical traits.

Besides you can not change, except through conditioning of one sort or another, the release of chemicals in oens body that cause one to be aroused.


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## qqwref (Mar 3, 2011)

Stefan said:


> Trying to find out whether they actually told him that they switched between feeling hetero and feeling homo, or whether he only observed them switching between men and women and drew a possibly false conclusion.


Wouldn't it make more sense to ask, then, rather than to explicitly state a possibly false conclusion yourself and then wait for people to criticize it?


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## maggot (Mar 3, 2011)

so... _Being more outwardly feminine = fitting with the gay stereotype = more abuse because of it. It would be reasonable to expect that people would suppress a side of themselves to avoid negative attention, instead of the other way around._

abuse is probably the wrong idea. while they might be oppressed by an ever diminishing group of people, they are readily accepted by another group of people with open arms, and a strong passion for who they are (in most cases, since we're talking in stereotypes). so this 'negative attention' is only in the eye of the beholder and is a diminishing factor. 


as far as one being in a confused sexual orientation crisis, im not so sure. im not sure that people who sway back and forth are necessarily confused on whether they're homo/hetero. there are some bisexuals who indulge in both at the same time. some times, both sexually, some times one sexually and one emotionally. what i find interesting is males who end up living a normal hetero life with the wife and the kids and then hide themselves in the closet for sake of losing everything they've lived their whole lives for, even though they are attracted sexually to men. there are men that run around behind their wives backs and do what they do with men, and then come home to the wife and give it to them too, crying on the inside. so, sometimes the supression of feelings is not necessarily because of what the general public will think of you, its to not interfere with another life in which you wouldnt give up for the world. sometimes homosexual actions have nothing to do with love, only lust. in such ways there is no confusion about their sexual orientation. man sex, woman love. why is it always about sex? just like i said before, the mother of my children could not be replaced by anything. i could never feel that with a man (at least not yet lol). 

like i said before, sexuality in terms of sexual orientation is irrelevant. its too ambiguous.


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## Matt (Mar 3, 2011)

I completely agree, society makes straight the "normal" sexuality (and I HATE that). People suppress any other feelings they might have to escape any discrimination or hate. Also, I agree that a person's sexuality fluctuates (if they are open enough to identify and accept their feelings). Personally I am bi, and my sexuality has changed between very minimal bisexual feelings towards males to preferring males over females. Sexuality cannot be a set choice. If a person doesn't lie to themselves about what they are feelings, they can enjoy what they truly want.
(P.S.: I have no religious affiliation, so don't try to convict me for ignoring any rules of behavior I am breaking.)


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## Nestor (Mar 3, 2011)

Logan said:


> Have you seen Meet the Spartans?


 
Only managed to endure 15 minutes of it... any references regarding Spartan's homosexuality that I missed?


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## somerandomkidmike (Mar 3, 2011)

I can see this thread going downhill, so I'll post now before people stop caring (if that hasn't already happened). This thread has actually changed my view slightly on sexuality.

Usually I have avoided serious discussion about sexuality, but not because I am ashamed of anything. I generally don't know what to say. When people have demanded a response from me, I've told them that I'm either heterosexual, or heteroflexible (depending on how well I knew them). However, I haven't ruled out that in the future, I could be attracted to, or want to be in a relationship (either sexual or nonsexual) with a person that's not female.

NOW I see no reason to associate myself with any sexuality (thanks Kirjava). I am not saying that I am asexual, pansexual, or undecided about what I am. If people want to know, I'll just explain it to them.

Matt: I agree that a person's preferences can fluctuate. For about half a year, I wasn't attracted to anything. Before that was I was SURE I was straight. I've never had a problem with anybody's sexuality...


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## Rob2109 (Mar 3, 2011)

Thought this was relevant, and says everything more elequently than I could about the discussion.


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## SomewhatAnon (Mar 7, 2011)

I'm a somewhat regular visitor of speedsolving, but I made a sockpuppet to keep some anonymity because I don't feel comfortable discussing these things while people IRL can connect them to me. So, mods, it'd probably be really easy to connect the dots, but please don't. 

I'd like to respond to a couple quotes before I post more.


qqwref said:


> If they're actually switching, they're not bisexual by the definition most people use. But I'd say most people who switch between sexual orientations either don't fully understand themselves, or are trying to change themselves to fit some kind of outside expectation.


It is quite possible to be fluid in your sexual orientation without any conscious effort. I'm pansexual, but my Kinsey number changes regularly. I just let it happen. I don't try one way or another. Yeah, you could say that something unconscious is going on due to societal pressure. I can't refute that. But would that explain me occasionally moving towards being attracted to men? (I'm a biological male, so being more attracted to men is against the societal norms) I don't think changing orientation is the result of a choice or not. Thinking that sexuality ought to be unchanging is just as wrong as thinking sexuality is as simple as hetero/homo.



qqwref said:


> There's also the related idea of dominance in a relationship, which would be interesting to see people's opinions about. Some people seem to want to have power over their partner ("being the man" in the relationship), and others seem to want to submit. Both of these personalities appear in all genders and sexual orientations.


There are plenty of relationships where there is no "guy" and "girl." That's also just wrong. In the relationship I'm in right now, my partner and I don't hold to any particular gender/role stereotypes. There's no desire by either of us to dominate.



maggot said:


> abuse is probably the wrong idea. while they might be oppressed by an ever diminishing group of people, they are readily accepted by another group of people with open arms, and a strong passion for who they are (in most cases, since we're talking in stereotypes). so this 'negative attention' is only in the eye of the beholder and is a diminishing factor.


This is pretty offensive. Despite the fact that homophobia is extremely rampant here...you have privilege. And you don't know you have it. You're probably cis and straight, and you have really no idea what the experiences of non-hetero people are like. Many of us don't readily divulge the details of our treatment by society. http://www.cs.earlham.edu/~hyrax/personal/files/student_res/straightprivilege.htm
The first privilege you have is not knowing that you have privilege. 

My parents insisted that I was straight. Over and over. For years. Now it's just not talked about. I can't talk to my parents about a fundamental aspect of me. It's fine by them for other people to be non-hetero. Just not their child.

Two of my best friends in high school tried to kill me after I came out to them.

Things are a lot worse for us than you'd like to think. But it's easier on your conscience to think we 'only' have to deal with people like the WBC, and not many of them.
You miss the signs, every day, all around you. You don't see all the little and big clues that are left to me by society that reminds me that society thinks I'm an aberration. 

And for anyone who's not hetero- or homo-, well, we face discrimination even within the LBGT community. Yes, bisexuals are dismissed as just sex-hungry, or wishy-washy, confused, etc. Asexuals are frequently cast out as freaks just like transgender people are.

Anyway, on to me.

To me, the idea that orientation 'doesn't exist' sounds exactly like the argument that music genres don't exist. Yeah, few people are strictly hetero/homo or 5s on the Kinsey scale. But terms like hetero-,homo-,bi-,pan-,a-, etc. are useful indicators. If someone tells me that they're bisexual, that doesn't tell me exactly how much they're attracted to each person in the world. It still says a lot, though. It gives me useful information about the person. It's not a perfect descriptor, but people are free to label themselves as they please. The need for better accuracy in identifying has led to terms like bisexual, asexual, pansexual, and many others. They generally fall under 'queer.' 

An important point here is that people are confusing gender identity with sexuality. Talking about feminine gay guys brings in both issues. Talking about the 'man' and the 'woman' in a relationship is more about gender identity than sexuality. 
A quote from someone on the xkcd forums...


> Asking who is the 'man' and who is the 'woman' in a gay relationship is like going into a Chinese restaurant and asking which chopstick is the fork.



Sexuality is independent of gender identity. I'm androgynous and pansexual. Some androgynous people are only attracted to one of the binary genders. Or are asexual. We need to be clear as to what we're discussing.


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## qqwref (Mar 7, 2011)

SomewhatAnon said:


> It is quite possible to be fluid in your sexual orientation without any conscious effort. I'm pansexual, but my Kinsey number changes regularly. I just let it happen. I don't try one way or another. [...] Thinking that sexuality ought to be unchanging is just as wrong as thinking sexuality is as simple as hetero/homo.


I agree. I think I was imagining someone who switches from "women ONLY" to "men ONLY" and back, which seems like something that wouldn't happen unless you're lying to yourself or others.



SomewhatAnon said:


> There are plenty of relationships where there is no "guy" and "girl." That's also just wrong. In the relationship I'm in right now, my partner and I don't hold to any particular gender/role stereotypes. There's no desire by either of us to dominate.


Yeah, which is why I said "some people" and put "being the man" in quotes. It's absolutely true that many people don't want a relationship like that, but there must be enough who do that certain stereotypes (like the excessively feminine gay man) have been able to develop. Like all stereotypes, they're not always true.



SomewhatAnon said:


> A quote from someone on the xkcd forums...
> "Asking who is the 'man' and who is the 'woman' in a gay relationship is like going into a Chinese restaurant and asking which chopstick is the fork."


I like this quote (although of course the question of who has the power in the relationship does often have a valid answer).


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## FoxWolf (Mar 7, 2011)

Yes, indeed. The most frequently asked question to someone when they come out is if they are the boy or girl.That is such a pointless question, I don't even understand it's concept. I personally have no reason to map my relationship to the typical "heterosexual" lifestyle.

I guess it's more of a reasoning behind it, I am fine with who I am personally, I have no reason to 'pretend' I'm in a heterosexual relation. Which is what I get from the "boy or girl"

Now if that question means who is the most feminine? Then look and see...

Or if you are asking bottom or top (Well then I have to say; Why do you even want to know, do you want some tips )

^ hehe that depends on who it is to though. ^_^


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## maggot (Mar 8, 2011)

_This is pretty offensive. Despite the fact that homophobia is extremely rampant here...you have privilege. And you don't know you have it. You're probably cis and straight, and you have really no idea what the experiences of non-hetero people are like. Many of us don't readily divulge the details of our treatment by society. http://www.cs.earlham.edu/~hyrax/per...tprivilege.htm
The first privilege you have is not knowing that you have privilege. _

this is just nuts. nothing that i said was offensive. however, to make any kind of personal assumption about me is very offensive. 

hate crimes and social oppression yada yada goes on all over the world for many different issues. believe me, the world doesnt revolve around gay pride. in the middle east people are still being killed for saying jesus is my savior. imagine not having the privilege of choosing your own god! id also like to point out that in the united states the country's core values are based upon christianity. not to bring up another religion war, but regardless of wether christianity takes certain standpoints on homosexuality, the law in the US follows suit with the oppression of LGBT community to AN EXTENT. america is a free country. you can live the way you want to live. you can go a lot of other places in the world and not have 1/2 the privileges that america has. while it is sad that there are hate crimes and yada yada, it is sad that there are starving children in ethiopia. i am not american of origin, but i love living in this country. as i have learned here in america, if you dont like it.. leave... and dont let the door hit you in the butt on the way out. when something effects them personally, people tend to become offensive/passionate. i am making this bold statement only because i am 'cis' and hetero. obviously you did not read all of my posts (lengthy posts), and on top of that, i was raised by 2 lesbians. so, please forgive my ignorant hetero viewpoints. obviously i know nothing about a 'non-hetero' lifestyle.


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## JonWhite (Mar 8, 2011)

I know one straight male who believes that a male wearing a wristwatch is likely homosexual. WTF?


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## SomewhatAnon (Mar 9, 2011)

maggot said:


> _This is pretty offensive. Despite the fact that homophobia is extremely rampant here...you have privilege. And you don't know you have it. You're probably cis and straight, and you have really no idea what the experiences of non-hetero people are like. Many of us don't readily divulge the details of our treatment by society. http://www.cs.earlham.edu/~hyrax/per...tprivilege.htm
> The first privilege you have is not knowing that you have privilege. _
> 
> this is just nuts. nothing that i said was offensive. [...]
> ...


This speaks for itself. You are ignorant and dismissive of the struggles of LGBT people.
You're saying the fact that I would have it worse if I lived somewhere else means that I should just deal with things here. You're exactly the kind of person that holds society back. 



> and on top of that, i was raised by 2 lesbians.


Yeah, and I have a friend who is black...



> so, please forgive my ignorant hetero viewpoints. obviously i know nothing about a 'non-hetero' lifestyle.


Will do- that was well said!


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## Cool Frog (Mar 9, 2011)

After the creation of this thread I have been noticing how people view sexual orientation in my school and other people. 
Many people are so close minded, inconsiderate, my way or the highway, negative kind of people. (Or the area I live in)


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## freshcuber (Mar 9, 2011)

Cool Frog said:


> After the creation of this thread I have been noticing how people view sexual orientation in my school and other people.
> Many people are so close minded, inconsiderate, my way or the highway, negative kind of people. (Or the area I live in)


 
If you're in high school they're pretty much all that way. In my school it's more of a racial division. There are a lot of black students who attend my school illegally. Our football team won back to back states because we have a ton of illegal athletes and they believe that because they can catch a ball they can lower everyone else's learning environment. 

It's unfortunate but many people at young ages are very ignorant of the world around them and are totally insensitive to other people's beliefs.


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## maggot (Mar 11, 2011)

poorly paraphrasing my comments and quoting satire is a personal stab at me, so my defense. 

people, such as yourself, who are unwilling to have civil conversations about issues and play victim to everything are the reason why the community is oppressed. everything that is said about sexuality is a personal attack, complaining that everyone hates you. . sure, with that kind of attitude (which sucks, might i add) you're sure to get somewhere; in company of others who feel like the whole world is against them. grow up. you conveniently edited out a part of my post which stated that there are much bigger issues to humanity than the oppression of homosexuality (limited resources, global warming, world hunger, unclean water in 3rd world countries, 3rd world countries becoming nuclear superpowers). part of the reason why oppression of homosexuality is so prevelent is that a large amount of LGBT activists act like america owes them something. its like a black person feeling like they need restitution for being oppressed before the lifting of segregation. stuff like this takes time. the more you agitate the situation, the longer the bitterness is going to linger. if you come with a positive attitude you'd be surprised at how much you can get accomplished. im also disappointed that your personal attack on myself was not deleted by a mod. yes, its fun to discuss with an open mind. i guess we should be weary of discussing sexuality on a forum where the average age is 12. at least you should try to act a little more grown up, and im not just talking about diction.


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## Tortin (Mar 11, 2011)

maggot said:


> poorly paraphrasing my comments and quoting satire is a personal stab at me, so my defense.
> 
> people, such as yourself, who are unwilling to have civil conversations about issues and play victim to everything are the reason why the community is oppressed. everything that is said about sexuality is a personal attack, complaining that everyone hates you. . sure, with that kind of attitude (which sucks, might i add) you're sure to get somewhere; in company of others who feel like the whole world is against them. grow up. you conveniently edited out a part of my post which stated that there are much bigger issues to humanity than the oppression of homosexuality (*limited resources, global warming, world hunger, unclean water in 3rd world countries, 3rd world countries becoming nuclear superpowers*). part of the reason why oppression of homosexuality is so prevelent is that a large amount of LGBT activists act like america owes them something. its like a black person feeling like they need restitution for being oppressed before the lifting of segregation. stuff like this takes time. the more you agitate the situation, the longer the bitterness is going to linger. if you come with a positive attitude you'd be surprised at how much you can get accomplished. im also disappointed that your personal attack on myself was not deleted by a mod. yes, its fun to discuss with an open mind. i guess we should be weary of discussing sexuality on a forum where the average age is 12. at least you should try to act a little more grown up, and im not just talking about diction.


 
So because there are worse problems in the world we should just give up on this issues and others? That's horrible reasoning.



freshcuber said:


> If you're in high school they're pretty much all that way. In my school it's more of a racial division. There are a lot of *black* students who attend my school illegally. Our football team won back to back states because we have a ton of illegal athletes and they believe that because they can catch a ball they can lower everyone else's learning environment.
> 
> It's unfortunate but many people at young ages are very ignorant of the world around them and are totally insensitive to other people's beliefs.



What does being black have to do with anything?


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## maggot (Mar 11, 2011)

Tortin said:


> So because there are worse problems in the world we should just give up on this issues and others? That's horrible reasoning.



that is not what i am conveying if you read my previous post. i did not say that we should give up on any issue in the world. to reiterate, there are a lot of problems in this world that are unsolved. and it sucks. oppression of homosexuality sucks. when you think with a negative mentality, it sucks that you cannot be who you want to be and be accepted. what i wanted to convey is the optimistic point of view while supressing the pessimist. be grateful that you are not hungry and have food to eat. be grateful you can choose your own god. be grateful you have many freedoms living in america. im not saying to ignore the problem, but if you strongly feel like you are shackled down, beaten up and broken down for who you are, give up everything you take for granted and go somewhere where you can live a happy life. but be prepared that a lot of the world is not perfect. this is what i was trying to convey. 
also, you can choose to be who you want to be in america and live your life the way you want to live. being LGBT doesnt put you in the same category as a criminal. if you are who you are and treat people with respect, you will get respect in turn. while it is sad that some people feel a certain way about homosexuality, the environment i was raised in was positive and is proof of that statement. while it is true that some things heterosexual people take for granted are much desired by the LGBT community, it is what it is. you can be like somewhatanon and make yourself and others miserable for the rest of your life or you can come to reality and live your life with happiness. what really matters in life?


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## Cool Frog (Mar 11, 2011)

maggot said:


> people, such as yourself, who are unwilling to have civil conversations about issues and play victim to everything are the reason why the community is oppressed.


Yes


> everything that is said about sexuality is a personal attack, complaining that everyone hates you. . sure, with that kind of attitude (which sucks, might i add)


It is a personal attack? It is just as discriminating as hating someone with a different skin color or religion.


> you're sure to get somewhere; in company of others who feel like the whole world is against them.


Sarcasm... People get together with other people who are like them to feel supported because they have a commonness between each other. They also all get discriminated against for it, I do see your point.


> part of the reason why oppression of homosexuality is so prevelent is that a large amount of LGBT activists act like america owes them something. its like a black person feeling like they need restitution for being oppressed *before* the lifting of segregation.


What about their constitutional right to freedom of the pursuit of happiness? The difference between black discrimination and homosexual discrimination is it seems that discrimination of a persons skin color is frowned upon more than discrimination of a homosexual.
I think part of this has to do with homosexuals are a minority.


> stuff like this takes time. the more you agitate the situation, the longer the bitterness is going to linger.


I disagree, I don't think insults and put-downs should be used to "Speed up the process". I think that their opinions should be heard.


> if you come with a positive attitude you'd be surprised at how much you can get accomplished.





> yes, its fun to discuss with an open mind.


For sure, I have been more open minded to this topic for sure. From what I have observed many people don't mind homosexuality or bisexuality. But, if some is LGBT they think of them differently.


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## qqwref (Mar 11, 2011)

So, maggot, just to confirm, basically you're saying:
- other people's lives suck more than yours, so
- you should be grateful for what you have, which means
- not complaining about what you don't, because
- it isn't necessary to be accepted for who you are to be happy.


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## freshcuber (Mar 11, 2011)

Tortin said:


> So because there are worse problems in the world we should just give up on this issues and others? That's horrible reasoning.
> 
> 
> 
> *What does being black have to do with anything?*



Like I said my school has a racial division. Stating where the race division is was relevant to the rest of my post. That's where being black has something to do with it.


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## cuberkid10 (Mar 11, 2011)

My opinion on gay marriage: LEGALIZE THAT.

People say that gay marrage hurts families. How so? Children should be exposed to this. Im not saying to tell them all the details of sex, but to just introduce the idea that 2 guys or 2 girls have the freedom to love and marry. People say that if this was legalized, it would be required to be brought into schools. I think with it being brought into schools, it would get rid of a bit of ignorance. I find that many people are ignorant, becuase they dont know much. Educating people on this is the first step to acceptance.

The religious aspect is the more difficult topic to tackle. People say that it goes against the Bible and becuase it does, it shouldn't be legalized. Doesnt it also say in the bible that God loves everyone? Why does that exclude gay people. Man and woman can be married with no problem. But man and man (or woman and woman) cannot?


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## Chapuunka (Mar 11, 2011)

[Does not plan to hijack thread or go on a "religious bawwww-fest".]



cuberkid10 said:


> The religious aspect is the more difficult topic to tackle. People say that it goes against the Bible and becuase it does, it shouldn't be legalized. Doesnt it also say in the bible that God loves everyone? Why does that exclude gay people. Man and woman can be married with no problem. But man and man (or woman and woman) cannot?


 
Yes, God loves everyone. Telling people they shouldn't practice homosexuality doesn't mean He doesn't love them. (Parents tell their kids they shouldn't do things all the time, but they obviously still love them.)


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## maggot (Mar 11, 2011)

qqwref said:


> So, maggot, just to confirm, basically you're saying:
> - other people's lives suck more than yours, so
> - you should be grateful for what you have, which means
> - not complaining about what you don't, because
> - it isn't necessary to be accepted for who you are to be happy.



other than the first statement, yes. we can all pretty much assume that some part of our life is not perfect. i am the same, i just dont wish to discuss it as it is not appropriate to this topic. 



Cool Frog said:


> yes, What is your opinion on no "gay marriage"



my opinion is exactly what i said. it is what it is. this is going to sound bad, but i'll explain. i support gay marriage. in every sense. i believe that the same benefits that a hetero, married couple would recieve 


Spoiler



joint parenting; 
joint adoption; 
joint foster care, custody, and visitation (including non-biological parents); 
status as next-of-kin for hospital visits and medical decisions where one partner is too ill to be competent; 
joint insurance policies for home, auto and health; 
dissolution and divorce protections such as community property and child support; 
immigration and residency for partners from other countries; 
inheritance automatically in the absence of a will; 
joint leases with automatic renewal rights in the event one partner dies or leaves the house or apartment; 
inheritance of jointly-owned real and personal property through the right of survivorship (which avoids the time and expense and taxes in probate); 
benefits such as annuities, pension plans, Social Security, and Medicare; 
spousal exemptions to property tax increases upon the death of one partner who is a co-owner of the home; 
veterans' discounts on medical care, education, and home loans; joint filing of tax returns; 
joint filing of customs claims when traveling; 
wrongful death benefits for a surviving partner and children; 
bereavement or sick leave to care for a partner or child; 
decision-making power with respect to whether a deceased partner will be cremated or not and where to bury him or her; 
crime victims' recovery benefits; 
loss of consortium tort benefits; 
domestic violence protection orders; 
judicial protections and evidentiary immunity; 
and more....


these things. i think that marriage in the sense of proclaiming your joining before god is the part that people cant handle. me personally, i think that seperating religion from state is the way to go on this issue. but personally, i think i could care less wether its before god or not. i am religious, however, i feel like it is something that can be embraced, eventually. i think that for every person who wants to proclaim their joining before god can do so in a church, gay or straight. but for the time being, the same rights can be given by the state, just not before god. theres many a time which me and my wife dont actually feel like we're married. its just a piece of paper and we wear some rings. i dont know why its such a big deal to give that same rights to everyone who wishes it.


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## hawkmp4 (Mar 11, 2011)

Chapuunka said:


> [Does not plan to hijack thread or go on religious "bawwww-fest".]
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, God loves everyone. Telling people they shouldn't practice homosexuality doesn't mean He doesn't love them. (Parents tell their kids they shouldn't do things all the time, but they obviously still love them.)


Exactly. I'm all for GLBT rights, but this is the wrong way to go about arguing for them. In a secular society, some moral or practical reason outside the framework of the Bible (or any other religious book) has to be given to keep gay marriage banned. "The Bible says so" isn't valid justification for a law, if it's the only justification. Obviously, the US isn't purely secular, and that's of course why it's still banned...


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## maggot (Mar 11, 2011)

hawkmp4 said:


> Exactly. I'm all for GLBT rights, but this is the wrong way to go about arguing for them. In a secular society, some moral or practical reason outside the framework of the Bible (or any other religious book) has to be given to keep gay marriage banned. "The Bible says so" isn't valid justification for a law, if it's the only justification. Obviously, the US isn't purely secular, and that's of course why it's still banned...


 
thank you for this. my english doesnt allow me to convey this very clearly. it is what it is. this is what i mean. the US's core values are christian, therefore the oppression follows suit with those core values. this is why you could leave to another country if it inhibits your ability to live a happy life.


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## hawkmp4 (Mar 11, 2011)

maggot said:


> this is why you could leave to another country if it inhibits your ability to live a happy life.


So, by this, you're saying that instead of the civil rights movement of the 1960's, African-Americans should have just moved back to Africa?


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## maggot (Mar 11, 2011)

for the ones who absolutely could NOT live their lives happily, yes. im japanese, so if i was living in the US around the time of WW2 and oppression inhibited my ability to live a happy life, yes... i would leave. would you not?


edit: are you guys even trying to make sense of what im trying to say or are you arguing for the sake of argument?


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## hawkmp4 (Mar 11, 2011)

maggot said:


> for the ones who absolutely could NOT live their lives happily, yes. im japanese, so if i was living in the US around the time of WW2 and oppression inhibited my ability to live a happy life, yes... i would leave. would you not?
> 
> 
> edit: are you guys even trying to make sense of what im trying to say or are you arguing for the sake of argument?


Yeah, we're trying to make sense of it. You're just saying incredibly intolerant things. Your argument boils down to, "If you don't like it, GTFO." Which allows for exactly zero social progress. I'm not okay with that...


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## JonWhite (Mar 11, 2011)

what if someone financially has no way to GTFO like you're suggesting?


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## Cool Frog (Mar 11, 2011)

maggot said:


> for the ones who absolutely could NOT live their lives happily, yes. im japanese, so if i was living in the US around the time of WW2 and oppression inhibited my ability to live a happy life, yes... i would leave. would you not?
> 
> edit: are you guys even trying to make sense of what im trying to say or are you arguing for the sake of argument?


 If you didn't get shoved into our concentration campsv(but this is a different story)
I Do like all of your comments, I feel as if they are contributing greatly in this discussion.


JonWhite said:


> what if someone financially has no way to GTFO like you're suggesting?


From what my global studies teacher said you can get a ride on an ocean cargo ship for ~60 bucks and you can travel nearly across the world (in solitude for 2-6 months)


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## hawkmp4 (Mar 11, 2011)

And how would you feed yourself for those 2-6 months with no income?
Keep in mind, $60 is a lot to some people.


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## maggot (Mar 11, 2011)

haha. i realize that it is ambitious of me to make a comment such as GTFO, which is true. but what you are misunderstanding is that i am not saying that this is the right choice for everyone. for the people in which moving to another country is within their means financially, amongst other things, why not move if you really truly are absolutely not able to live a happy life? if you cannot live happily without being legally married, cannot live with the amount of oppression, in whatever form, leave! there are PLENTY of people who live in america, GAY, and live a happy life. take your negative attitude elsewhere. if you are willing to talk in a civil manner and express your opinion on matters, present solutions in a positive manner.... you have to remember that it is a very sensitive subject and yes, they are a minority. being a minority doesnt mean you have to make your voice louder to be heard.


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## Chapuunka (Mar 11, 2011)

But yet, there is no place on earth where everyone can be 100% happy all the time, even if you had the financial ability to get wherever you wanted to be--there's always going to be issues.


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## Innocence (Mar 11, 2011)

@Maggot: Moar whitespace pl0x. I would probably enjoy reading your posts if I was able to without my brain hurting.

Also, I have NO idea where this thread is going anymore, so I don't really have anything that's really constructive to contribute. Sorry. :/


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## maggot (Mar 11, 2011)

Chapuunka said:


> But yet, there is no place on earth where everyone can be 100% happy all the time, even if you had the financial ability to get wherever you wanted to be--there's always going to be issues.



HAHA FINALLY SOMEONE GETS IT! is america not a great country? think about it. i know its hard for a lot of the kids who are reading this thread, who lived in america all their lives. but america is really a great country. even for LGBT and everyone in between.


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## hawkmp4 (Mar 11, 2011)

Chapuunka said:


> But yet, there is no place on earth where everyone can be 100% happy all the time, even if you had the financial ability to get wherever you wanted to be--there's always going to be issues.


 
But is that a reason not to try to make things better?


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## Cool Frog (Mar 11, 2011)

maggot said:


> haha. i realize that it is ambitious of me to make a comment such as GTFO, which is true. but what you are misunderstanding is that i am not saying that this is the right choice for everyone. for the people in which moving to another country is within their means financially, amongst other things, why not move if you really truly are absolutely not able to live a happy life? if you cannot live happily without being legally married, cannot live with the amount of oppression, in whatever form, leave! there are PLENTY of people who live in america, GAY, and live a happy life. *take your negative attitude elsewhere. if you are willing to talk in a civil manner and express your opinion on matters, present solutions in a positive manner.... you have to remember that it is a very sensitive subject* and yes, they are a minority. being a minority doesnt mean you have to make your voice louder to be heard.


This. Negativity does not help anything.


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## hawkmp4 (Mar 11, 2011)

So being realistic about the **** LGBT people have to deal with is being negative?


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## maggot (Mar 11, 2011)

hawkmp4 said:


> But is that a reason not to try to make things better?


 
according to some random appoximation i found upon googling 'amount of christians in the US' 76% of americans claim to be christian. 307,006,550 people in the US according to the US census. thats 233,324,978 people claiming to be christians. approximately. 

its going to take some time. seriously. its not just a scratch and we can put a bandaid on it. when people start going against the word of god, people are bound to revolt against it. and take this with a grain of salt, as not all christians hold the same views on the matter.

and with 2.1 billion christians approx across the world, you do the math.


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## hawkmp4 (Mar 11, 2011)

maggot said:


> according to some random appoximation i found upon googling 'amount of christians in the US' 76% of americans claim to be christian. 307,006,550 people in the US according to the US census. thats 233,324,978 people claiming to be christians. approximately.
> 
> its going to take some time. seriously. its not just a scratch and we can put a bandaid on it. when people start going against the word of god, people are bound to revolt against it. and take this with a grain of salt, as not all christians hold the same views on the matter.
> 
> and with 2.1 billion christians approx across the world, you do the math.


All you did was provide evidence that it will be hard...
Yet you're arguing that it's pointless to try to make things better, essentially. That we should just leave instead of fighting.


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## Cool Frog (Mar 11, 2011)

hawkmp4 said:


> So being realistic about the **** LGBT people have to deal with is being negative?


 
No, trying to earn more rights and less discrimination against LGBT people in a negative way is.


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## maggot (Mar 11, 2011)

im going to sleep after this post, but i will respond quickly. 

you cannot argue that the activists of the LGBT community are very demanding. they want something like civil rights movement, and their not willing to wait.

it is not pointless to make things better. if you are going to fight for something there is a right way to do it. and there are people out there right now, who are fighting very respectably and i admire them for that.

then there are those who are fighting the wrong way. some people are so blind to the fact of it being such a sensitive situation and that it is hard to solve this situation and not trample on peoples religious beliefs.

im not arguing that its pointless and im not saying to give up and leave. please read what i wrote, you arent reading it. also, when i first made my comment about leaving (which i did mean in a sense) it was in defense to being called cis, straight, ignorant etc. so, speaking to somewhatanon being very forward about how horrible his life was. 

im not going to try to defend my point anymore, because my english isnt good enough to convey something without people completely misconstruing it.


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## qqwref (Mar 11, 2011)

maggot said:


> is america not a great country? think about it.


Your arguments are nearly nonsensical, because you're (deliberately?) ignoring some very major points:
- Obviously America has some great things, but there are also some serious problems. Wanting to fix them is _not_ wrong and doesn't mean you should go somewhere else. Anything that isn't perfect can be improved.
- Not everyone has the same goals in life. One person might be happy with barely enough money to buy food and no friends, as long as they have enough porn (woo, I'm on topic!). Another might really want respect out of their life and not care about other things. It shows both ignorance and lack of compassion to claim that nobody should dislike their situation once they really think about it.
- For many people, it is impossible to have a decent life in any other country, because moving would be too difficult. Hell, it's hard enough getting a job here where people know your school/language and you have some contacts, good luck finding one in a totally foreign place - and that's even assuming there's a better one out there. How do you know there is?

It really looks like you're being militantly unsympathetic to people who have these problems; if someone doesn't like the situation they're in you'd rather they spend tens of thousands of dollars moving out of the country than actually try to improve their community. I think it is pretty blatantly obvious that this is not the solution.


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## Gaétan Guimond (Apr 13, 2011)

1 point by ganley 835 days ago | link

She's done some interesting work... wish the NYT article had focused more on that and less on Rubik's cube.
-----


6 points by david927 835 days ago | link

I thought it was interesting that her name is Jessica -- that's not a Czech name and there's no equivalent. So I looked her up and she was born George (Jiri) Fridrich. She's a transsexual. (Not that there's anything wrong with that. Just interesting.)
-----


19 points by DaniFong 835 days ago | link

In general it is considered very rude to out someone without their permission, especially in a professional context. Because it can drag the conversation from the present to the remembered, painful past, it can be quite harmful. Just because you yourself don't believe that there's 'anything wrong with that' doesn't mean that other people won't: especially on the internet, people can be viscous. To take it to Godwin's extreme, it's like outing a Jewish family, which is not out as Jewish, and are not Jewish Activists, in a Nazi controlled state, despite you yourself thinking nothing is wrong with being Jewish. Also, having had a traditionally male name doesn't always mean that someone is trans, there was an article on here just recently about George Oates, who is a woman.
-----


5 points by david927 834 days ago | link

Wait. That's not quite fair. First, I found out that she's a transexual quite easily and so that can hardly be called "outing" someone. Second, I did think about whether I should write that comment, and I thought by pointing it out I was helping, by saying "Look, this person is amazing and she's also a transexual." It's a push against the stigma.
To go to your Nazi example, I felt I was saying, "Jessie Owens just kicked your ass, and look -- he's black."

-----


1 point by DaniFong 834 days ago | link

No, unless you did something more than you've said, you found she used to be called Jiri, made an inference, and brought it to a forum that wouldn't have or hadn't discussed it. That's called outing, whether or not someone is publicly out by choice or by accident. If you want to push against stigma, do so with willing participants! They're out there. For example, Lynn Conway is a renown computer engineer, and now an out activist, having come out slowly after more than two decades in stealth.
The point is that being out and trans (or Jewish!) can be painful, challenging, and contentious, and that one should have the choice to live out or not. You don't have the right to choose the social context in which she lives. She does not mention it on her article, she does not mention it in her website, and it have not been substantiated by anything save rumor so far as I have seen. So that is outing, it probably is against her will, and it's rude and insensitive.

-----


2 points by david927 833 days ago | link

I didn't infer that she was a transexual from the name change; I read it when looking for the name change.
-----


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## musicninja17 (Apr 13, 2011)

Can somebody please confirm that Jessica Fridrich is in fact a transsexual? I'm sorry...last thread about this was fishy, and I trust you Mr. Guimond, but sometimes your points are a little hard to follow.

Sidenote: I consider myself christian because I believe in the morals of christ but do not necissarily like organized religion a lot because I believe it's not what it's all about.

And yes. Telling people to leave a country which is all about freedom because they themselves are being intolerant is absolutely stupid in this day and age.


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## Dene (Apr 13, 2011)

Gaétan Guimond said:


> random stuff


 
You do know that everyone thinks you are crazy right? Like actual crazy, not just like "heh that guys' nuts" type crazy.


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## Cool Frog (Apr 13, 2011)

Dene said:


> You do know that *everyone* thinks you are crazy right? Like actual crazy, not just like "heh that guys' nuts" type crazy.


 
I don't think he is crazy. More along the lines on of passion of the abstract.


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## maggot (Apr 13, 2011)

qqwref said:


> Your arguments are nearly nonsensical, because you're (deliberately?) ignoring some very major points:
> - Obviously America has some great things, but there are also some serious problems. Wanting to fix them is _not_ wrong and doesn't mean you should go somewhere else. Anything that isn't perfect can be improved.
> - Not everyone has the same goals in life. One person might be happy with barely enough money to buy food and no friends, as long as they have enough porn (woo, I'm on topic!). Another might really want respect out of their life and not care about other things. It shows both ignorance and lack of compassion to claim that nobody should dislike their situation once they really think about it.
> - For many people, it is impossible to have a decent life in any other country, because moving would be too difficult. Hell, it's hard enough getting a job here where people know your school/language and you have some contacts, good luck finding one in a totally foreign place - and that's even assuming there's a better one out there. How do you know there is?
> ...


 
it is obvious that there are serious problems. wanting to fix them is not wrong and it doesnt mean you need to go elsewhere. not trying to find a sensible soultion is nonsensical. the solution is going to be, at first, a compromise, then once the roaring water has settled, a new compromise is made. which is the path that america has followed for many years on the subject. it is when we try to push to hard and to quickly that the opposition is much more evident. sure, theres going to be people who oppose no matter what, but its only going to be easier if it is done in the right way. im not saying that everyone should move out of the country, just that it is an option. . if you cannot live your life the way you want in america, well, spend tens of thousands of dollars to move. what is money compared to your quality of life? you can have all the money in the world and it would mean nothing if you cant live the way you want. noone read any of my posts correctly. 

not everyone has the same goals in life. true. it is ignorant to think that noone should dislike their situation. noones life is perfect, kid. its what you make of it. plain and simple. if you dislike your situation, it depends on how much of a toll it takes on your quality of life. if you live day to day with the same results everyday, you do nothing, and you wake up tomorrow and expect everything to be different? how naive. 

it is not impossilbe to have a decent life in another country. i'm living proof of that. it was difficult for me to find a good job, but i found a job. i work hard and i work with integrity. it has taken me far. maybe not everyone is so 'lucky' as i am, but my life is not exactly a slice of pie with cherries on top. if my quality of life was so horrible, i'd try to find any way to fix it. if nothing worked, maybe a last ditch effort would be to leave the country, but it is a solution. something would have to bother me a whole hell of a lot to have me leave a country. but i guarantee that i would be able to find a more sensible solution to how to fix my situation and quality of life before that became the only option. and by no means am i saying, you should be straight it would fix all your 'problems', but what i'm saying is that most of the 'problems' arent going to magically fix themselves overnight, and so find ways to live your life happily within your own means.


edit: what i think is so funny about this thread is that noone has done any kind of actual research. ask your parents. ask your grandparents. what was acceptable back then? look at where we are now. its funny how things go from OMFGWTF to semi-ok in a matter of 30 years. you cannot say there hasnt been significant progress.


----------



## musicninja17 (Apr 13, 2011)

maggot said:


> and with 2.1 billion christians approx across the world, you do the math.


 
Random thought from one of your older posts...
Christianity is not the only religion that a good chunk of its population stands against stuff like this.
There are a LOT less tolerant religions out there also...


Yes, we have come a long way in the past 50+ years. But that's also like saying we've almost racially integrated schools. It's like they almost have full rights.

Almost is not good enough.


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## Edward (Apr 13, 2011)

musicninja17 said:


> Can somebody please confirm that Jessica Fridrich is in fact a transsexual? I'm sorry...last thread about this was fishy, and I trust you Mr. Guimond, but sometimes your points are a little hard to follow.
> 
> Sidenote: I consider myself christian because I believe in the morals of christ but do not necissarily like organized religion a lot because I believe it's not what it's all about.
> 
> And yes. Telling people to leave a country which is all about freedom because they themselves are being intolerant is absolutely stupid in this day and age.


 
Musicninja, being a Christian also means believing in the bible pretty much 100%. It's the words of the one you've given your life to. The bible says pretty much outright that gay acts are displeasing to him and will be punished (it's a sin). When you claim to be a Christian, you can't really argue against it.
Not impeding on your beliefs, just saying what I think about your post.


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## maggot (Apr 13, 2011)

musicninja17 said:


> Random thought from one of your older posts...
> Christianity is not the only religion that a good chunk of its population stands against stuff like this.
> There are a LOT less tolerant religions out there also...
> 
> ...


 


almost is better than nothing. and the christianity numbers were in reference to the morals of america being tied to that SPECIFIC religion. 

i seriously think people dont read and just post random stuff out of context.

your comment about telling people who live in a country screaming freedom to leave the country is stupid. well, you should re-learn what america is about. the term freedom is skewed. there was freedom, and slavery. there is freedom, and religion. there is really no true freedom in the sense of the term you are speaking about. so, its not stupid. is america capable of becoming free in that sense? probably not. only because there are views of the majority and america runs on a pseudo-democracy. so, dont hold your breath.


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## Bapao (Apr 13, 2011)

^^^
Nice, even the hairlines match up. When did she change gender?

Also:

http://www.thepublicvoid.com/cube/g/cube-DanMirekJessica.jpg

So who does the "most influential female in cubing history" title go to now? Or am I just being narrow minded?



> You do know that everyone thinks you are crazy right? Like actual crazy, not just like "heh that guys' nuts" type crazy.



2nd...I skip his posts, they give me a high blood pressure...


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## irontwig (Apr 13, 2011)

b4p4076 said:


> ^^^
> Nice, even the hairlines match up. When did she change gender?
> So who does the "most influential female in cubing history" title go to now? Or am I just being narrow minded?



Anneke Treep perhups?


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## Gaétan Guimond (Apr 13, 2011)

b4p4076;559116
So who does the "most influential female in cubing history" title go to now? Or am I just being narrow minded?[/QUOTE said:


> rubik's cube world championship 1982
> 
> 1 Minh Thai 22.95 WR USA 27.16 22.95 27.97
> 2 Guus Razoux Schultz 24.32 ER Netherlands 24.32 31.51 26.51
> ...


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## Ton (Apr 13, 2011)

As I am 50 , I have learned that feelings and emotions are not the best guides in live, they can go any where. 
The basics, the one thing that defines you as person, is not the emotions or feelings you have right now.


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## ElectricDoodie (Apr 13, 2011)

musicninja17 said:


> Can somebody please confirm that Jessica Fridrich is in fact a transsexual?


 
I thought it had been confirmed through pictures and videos.
Kir's picture is pretty good, but if that doesn't satisfy, there are pictures and and videos of him at the 1982 Budapest competition.



Spoiler



He's the one with the Czech Republic flag.


Spoiler












And here's a quick glimpse of him at the 1982 competition. He has his head down, as the camera pans by:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCNhBnAERNo&feature=player_detailpage#t=122s

Could still be a manly girl, though.


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## musicninja17 (Feb 2, 2012)

Edward said:


> Musicninja, being a Christian also means believing in the bible pretty much 100%. It's the words of the one you've given your life to. The bible says pretty much outright that gay acts are displeasing to him and will be punished (it's a sin). When you claim to be a Christian, you can't really argue against it.
> Not impeding on your beliefs, just saying what I think about your post.



I semi-apologize bumping this thread, but I would like to defend my stance here. (I never saw this post, and i'm kind've put off...) Yeah. This stuff is really old. But it wasn't a terrible thread to begin with. (except the fact that we're on religion and stuff now instead of sexuality. Wutevs.) And It feels like I was typing all this just yesterday.

Being a Christian does NOT mean believing in the bible 100%. Not at all. Not even close. Believe what you want, but the bible was written by Man. It was inspired by works of Jesus and others, but in the end it was written by the hand of man.

Look at how the Church has swayed and hand picked over the years which books are "right" and "wrong" and you start to see some really fishy stuff going around.

The simplest definition to "being a Christian" would be that who follows the word of Christ. Not some BS book thrown together over millennia in lets-play-a-game-of-crapshoot-telephone game. Christ had some amazing, powerful ideas. Those that anybody could follow. Pieces of the old testament contain outdated holiness codes that have _no_ bearing on anything at all anymore. Should we believe in that? Should I believe in Creationism? No. 

Jesus was a cool dude.
I am a follower of his credo. 
Not some outdated book.

The bible does _not_ need to be interpreted literally...that just creates problems.




maggot said:


> america runs on a pseudo-democracy. so, dont hold your breath.



Of course we do. 


Back on topic with the sexuality thing. 
What's you guys' opinions on gays being able to adopt children?


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## Jokerman5656 (Feb 2, 2012)

if they are married then they should be able to do what they want.


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## emolover (Feb 2, 2012)

How did I never notice this thread?

Honestly I think the idea of being completely heterosexual or homosexual is stupid. I would bet you that even the most Christian and "moral" person has had sexual thoughts about the same sex. I say this because a lot of times you can really see that on the inside they hide there inner "gay". 

Obviously I am a bisexual but am slightly more on the homosexual side. But when I was a good Christian boy at the age of 11 when I actually started having any thoughts about sexual actions, as much to my dismay my thoughts about being with a boy would have been frowned at badly. So for a couple years I had to suppress my bisexuality and by typical by being like, "Tits, Ass, Vagina!!! Then I discovered people to talk to about this on the Internet and I am fully willing to admit now I am a bisexual.



jokerman5656 said:


> if they are married then they should be able to do what they want.


 
Why should they be married to do what they want? Sometimes that is not an option.


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## musicninja17 (Feb 2, 2012)

I can think about having sex with other men, I don't find it sexually appealing at all. Does this mean I have homosexual thoughts?


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## jskyler91 (Feb 2, 2012)

emolover said:


> Why should they be married to do what they want? *Sometimes that is not an option.*




Or even something they want to do for that matter. I completely agree Emolover, I too am a bisexual and I can completely relate to what you are saying.


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## qqwref (Feb 2, 2012)

musicninja17 said:


> Jesus was a cool dude.
> I am a follower of his credo.
> Not some outdated book.


To be honest, I think this is something that strongly differs from the beliefs of the vast majority of Christians and Christian churches. (But there's no other good word for it...) I don't believe any of the divinity stuff, but from a philosophical standpoint, Jesus definitely had some valuable and important things to say.



emolover said:


> Honestly I think the idea of being completely heterosexual or homosexual is stupid.


I'm sure from your experience it seems pretty odd, but from what I've heard (Kinsey report etc) there are definitely people like that out there. I guess for people who have absolutely no homosexual tendencies, the concept of people being naturally gay/bi would seem just as unrealistic.

Sometimes I wish my sexuality fell into a nice convenient bin, but it doesn't


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## musicninja17 (Feb 2, 2012)

qqwref said:


> To be honest, I think this is something that strongly differs from the beliefs of the vast majority of Christians and Christian churches. (But there's no other good word for it...) I don't believe any of the divinity stuff, but from a philosophical standpoint, Jesus definitely had some valuable and important things to say.


 I <3 this article
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_atheism



qqwref said:


> I'm sure from your experience it seems pretty odd, but from what I've heard (Kinsey report etc) there are definitely people like that out there. I guess for people who have absolutely no homosexual tendencies, the concept of people being naturally gay/bi would seem just as unrealistic.



I can totally see people being naturally gay/bi.


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## Cheese11 (Feb 2, 2012)

musicninja17 said:


> I can totally see people being naturally gay/bi.


 
How is this possible?


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## emolover (Feb 2, 2012)

Cheese11 said:


> How is this possible?


 
I hope your kidding.

Many species of animals have sex with each other regardless of gender. They are animals and so are we.


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## aronpm (Feb 2, 2012)

emolover said:


> I hope your kidding.
> 
> Many species of animals have sex with each other regardless of gender. They are animals and so are we.


 
I don't think either you or musicninja17 understood what qqwref said.


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## Stefan (Feb 2, 2012)

musicninja17 said:


> the bible was written by Man
> The simplest definition to "being a Christian" would be that who follows the word of Christ. Not some BS book



If you disregard such "BS" sources, where do you get your Christ from?


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## Bapao (Feb 2, 2012)

As of late, I've noticed that I can be attracted to males with feminine traits. Not on a strictly sexual level though (I cringe at the thought of touching another guy's junk).

For example; I've always known that emolover is a guy (I watched some of his YouTube stuff early on), but I still think he's pretty sexy (in general, not just his banana solving skills ). I'm not sure what to make of it, but it doesn't freak me out or anything. I'm cool with it I guess.

Like, I'll find some girly gay men cute, but manly gay guys scare the hell out of me. Weird.

I always pick female characters when I play computer games. Is that because I want to be a girl? Or is it because I like to look under their skirts when they do a high-kick? 

I used to be militantly hetero. But what with social taboos being easier to ignore theses days, I just chill and let mother nature entertain me.


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## Achifaifa (Feb 2, 2012)

Bapao said:


> As of late, I've noticed that I can be attracted to males with feminine traits. Not on a strictly sexual level though (I cringe at the thought of touching another guy's junk).
> 
> For example; I've always known that emolover is a guy (I watched some of his YouTube stuff early on), but I still think he's pretty darn sexy (in general, not just his banana solving skills ). I'm not sure what to make of it, but it doesn't freak out or anything. I'm cool with it I guess.
> 
> ...


 
^This. (Except maybe for the emolover part)

I have to recognise that in the last years that 'being bi/gay/whatever' taboo has been making less and less sense to me. I mean, sexuality has been banalised (Hope it's the right word) during the last 40 years and now sex is just something you do for fun. Why can't anyone have fun with someone else with the same gender?

I guess the first time you see that kind of girl-ish guy and think about doing 'something', you immediately thing 'What the **** am I thinking about'. But what the hell, why not? What exactly is wrong with it? (Guys with huge muscles and crap like that look disgusting to me, i guess it's just personal taste)

I really don't know how to put it in words, I guess it's something you just think and it's impossible to understand if you don't think the same.


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## Ezy Ryder (Feb 2, 2012)

16, wanting/trying to believe in Christian God.
I've searched this thread and found only a few words about it. Do You consider asexuality a sexual orientation? Or maybe a disorder/illness?
Ps.: Some cubers claimed being heterosexual, some homosexual and some bisexual, are there any asexual cubers? I doubt I'm the only one.
Ps2.: I hope You won't consider me too young to post in this thread, though if You will, I'll just delete this post.


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## Godmil (Feb 2, 2012)

By asexual do you mean you have no sexual desires at all? I've never heard of that before.


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## Bapao (Feb 2, 2012)

Godmil said:


> By asexual do you mean you have no sexual desires at all? I've never heard of that before.


 
That's what I thought Ezy Ryder meant, but then his/ her signature confused things.


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## jskyler91 (Feb 2, 2012)

Godmil said:


> By asexual do you mean you have no sexual desires at all? I've never heard of that before.


 

There are many asexual people in the world, the Wiki page on it has lots of interesting info on it if you are curious about it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asexuality


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## Ezy Ryder (Feb 2, 2012)

Godmil, yes that's what I meant. I don't find in humans (nor animals or things) anything sexually attracting (though I find some things repelling). I also don't feel any need or desire to have sexual contacts. I think that qualifies me as a asexual.


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## Godmil (Feb 2, 2012)

Read up a bitty on it. Very interesting. Thanks for sharing.


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## somerandomkidmike (Feb 2, 2012)

I love discussions about sexuality. I hate when people say it's immoral to be a certain sexuality. If you want to use the bible as a reason to say that "being gay is a sin" you probably shouldn't be eating shrimp, wearing clothes with more than one type of fabric, sitting in the presence of somebody that is menstruating, or shaving. Picking and choosing which rules you want to follow seems a bit crazy in my view.

Anyway, back to the topic of Sexuality. Looking back at the original post, I can still say I agree with a lot of what Kirjava said. However, I definitely think sexuality exists. I completely agree that it can't be something that you look at as black and white. It is a spectrum, and I believe it's constantly evolving as a person gets older. 

The Kinsey scale is a great example of how a person's views can change. If you look at the Wikipedia page on the Kinsey scale, you'll see that 11% of males age 20-35 fall under the category of a 3 at some time during their life. I think sexuality should be viewed on a spectrum in the same way that gender is. I'm not talking about biological or genotypic sex. Even if you look at a person's genotype, there can be a number of physiological differences that could make them view their own gender as something different than their sex.


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## emolover (Feb 2, 2012)

@Bapao

Thank you for saying im sexy!

I am same way with what I think of attractive guys. I find the cute ones to to be thin, hairless, and have a very effeminate face the avatar I have right now(Brandon Hilton). But unlike you I want to handle his junk !

Breast is not that attractive to me and even if it is attractive I think small is better, but think the chest itself is very attractive instead of the breast alone.

I too usually play as the female charecter because I think it would be very intresting to be a girl. Amybe even to the point where I might do some hormon therapy to get rid of body hair and look overall more feminine. Of course I would never get a sex change but it would be intresting to be more womanly.


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## BrainOfSweden (Feb 2, 2012)

Bapao said:


> That's what I thought Ezy Ryder meant, but then his/ her signature confused things.


As you propably know, love can be about a lot more than sex. But I understand how the signature can be confusing, as "make love" implies having sex. But putting it before "not war" I think the meaning changes a bit.


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## PandaCuber (Feb 2, 2012)

I was reading somewhere that in Roman times, it would be weird to NOT be gay.(Homosexual or idk how else its appropriate to say). That most royalty were men that at the end of a party, wanted other men. 
So I assume that somewhere over time, someone said that was wrong? Because now(especially in the past) it was bad to be gay. Like the fact that they cant marry in most places of USA. Not so sure how the rest of the worlds laws are. 

I can say I have thought about it.. Everyone asks them self(besides people that already know), Am i Gay? Could i be gay? 
Well im not . I just cant see myself doing that. 
The farthest I can get to gay is a bromance. Thats about it. 

I hope i stayed on topic.


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## Bapao (Feb 2, 2012)

BrainOfSweden said:


> As you propably know, love can be about a lot more than sex. But I understand how the signature can be confusing, as "make love" implies having sex. But putting it before "not war" I think the meaning changes a bit.


 
Yeah, but the phrase stems from the "sexual revolution" that occured during the 60s. Its current interpretation can be versatile though, that's true. I tend to think of the old defenition when I see it used .


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## Cheese11 (Feb 2, 2012)

emolover said:


> I hope your kidding.
> 
> Many species of animals have sex with each other regardless of gender. They are animals and so are we.


 
I would have to disagree on this one.


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## Cheese11 (Feb 2, 2012)

Ezy Ryder said:


> 16, wanting/trying to believe in Christian God.
> I've searched this thread and found only a few words about it. Do You consider asexuality a sexual orientation? Or maybe a disorder/illness?
> Ps.: Some cubers claimed being heterosexual, some homosexual and some bisexual, are there any asexual cubers? I doubt I'm the only one.
> Ps2.: I hope You won't consider me too young to post in this thread, though if You will, I'll just delete this post.


 
Asexual means that you don't need a partner to have baby's...


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## Sahid Velji (Feb 2, 2012)

Cheese11 said:


> Asexual means that you don't need a partner to have baby's...


 Asexuality and asexual reproduction are two different things.


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## Cheese11 (Feb 2, 2012)

Sahid Velji said:


> Asexuality and asexual reproduction are two different things.


 
Well my science teacher told us that most people get it wrong, and think otherwise.


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## Kirjava (Feb 2, 2012)

Many people claim asexuality without actually having the attribute.



Cheese11 said:


> I would have to disagree on this one.


 
You can't, there is documented evidence that proves otherwise.


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## qqwref (Feb 2, 2012)

Cheese11 said:


> Asexual means that you don't need a partner to have baby's...





Cheese11 said:


> Well my science teacher told us that most people get it wrong, and think otherwise.


Did you know that you don't have to be right all the time to be a teacher? Look it up; it's not actually one of the requirements.

But yeah, there are two different definitions of asexual - sexological (lack of interest in sex and/or sexual attraction) and biological (being able to create offspring with only one parent). Fortunately it's pretty much always obvious which one is meant from context.


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## somerandomkidmike (Feb 2, 2012)

Cheese11 said:


> I would have to disagree on this one.


 
I don't understand how you can say otherwise. Can you please explain it to me?


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## Sillas (Feb 2, 2012)

This thread is funny. For me sexuality is simple.


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## musicninja17 (Feb 3, 2012)

"The simplest definition to "being a Christian" would be that who follows the word of Christ. Not some BS book"



Stefan said:


> If you disregard such "BS" sources, where do you get your Christ from?


 
Alright not quite what I was getting at, but fair enough.
The creation story. The old testament. I'm sure some of it holds some grain of truth somewhere, but the New Testament is the only thing that i'll even remotely believe.

My big point is that the whole thing has been retold so many times that it's been warped over.


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## shelley (Feb 3, 2012)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-16552173

I found this article a few weeks back. Before this I was not aware of asexuality as a sexual orientation, nor had I encountered the idea that sexual attraction and romantic attraction are separate things and that you can have one but not the other. But it made a surprising amount of sense to me. I had always been romantically attracted to guys, so I assumed I was heterosexual. But I've never really looked at a person and thought "I'd like to have sex with him/her". I can say a guy is hot, but it's the same kind of assessment I would be making if I observed that a girl is cute. When I was a teenager, sex was not on my radar at all. I knew it existed, but I had no desire to have it myself. I assumed everyone else was the same way and was practically unaware of the fact that my 16-18 year old peers could be sexually active. A lot of perspectives I found on AVEN seem to echo my thoughts and experiences.

Discovering the existence of asexuality was a pretty big paradigm shift for me and I'm still not sure what to think. I'm not ruling out the possibility that I might lie somewhere in the grey area between true asexuality and sexuality, or the possibility that I simply have a repressed attitude toward sex as a result of a sheltered upbringing. But seeing it mentioned here at least assures me that I'm not quite so alone.


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## Kirjava (Feb 8, 2012)

shelley said:


> I'm not ruling out the possibility that I might lie somewhere in the grey area between true asexuality and sexuality.


 
Just as there appears to be a scale of preference of attraction, there likely is a level of how close you are to this scale at all.


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## Godmil (Feb 8, 2012)

Kirjava said:


> Just as there appears to be a scale of preference of attraction, there likely is a level of how close you are to this scale at all.


 
Read the little text under then AVEN Triangle near the bottom of this wiki article.


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## applemobile (Feb 8, 2012)

I find women with cat ears and tails attracrive, so what, sue me. Where am i on this scale?


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## Kirjava (Feb 8, 2012)

applemobile said:


> I find women with cat ears and tails attracrive, so what, sue me. Where am i on this scale?


 
Furry is just a fetish


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## applemobile (Feb 8, 2012)

Kirjava said:


> Furry is just a fetish



Yuk, dressing up as animals is sick and disturbing. Genetically modified women are where its at. I hear they are currently funding a breeding plan in Japan.


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## somerandomkidmike (Feb 14, 2012)

Well, I've recently come out to my family saying that I am not just attracted to females. I just felt I should say.


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## Kirjava (Feb 14, 2012)

Yeah, I told my parents about all this about two months ago. They were not pleased


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## StachuK1992 (Feb 14, 2012)

Could you two elaborate on their reactions?
Doesn't have to be public, just curious.


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## Hershey (Feb 14, 2012)

Would agreeing with the phrase "it's not gay if it's a three-way" make someone a 1 on the Kinsey scale?


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## emolover (Feb 14, 2012)

Some of my friends know about my bisexuality but I could not tell my parents. 

Kind of surprised they don't know because if they checked my history even on YouTube they could at least tell that I am strange. It's not the porn, it's just the stuff I do on the Internet is not straight(I watch makeup videos on YouTube.


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## Specs112 (Feb 14, 2012)

emolover said:


> Some of my friends know about my bisexuality but I could not tell my parents.
> 
> Kind of surprised they don't know because if they checked my history even on YouTube they could at least tell that I am strange. It's not the porn, it's just the stuff I do on the Internet is not straight(I watch makeup videos on YouTube.



Not surprised my parents don't know, because they don't know how to check browser history.

Pfffhehe.


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## emolover (Feb 14, 2012)

Specs112 said:


> Not surprised my parents don't know, because they don't know how to check browser history.
> 
> Pfffhehe.



Your parents from the 1800's?


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## Specs112 (Feb 14, 2012)

emolover said:


> Your parents from the 1800's?


 
They don't belong anywhere near technology, that's for sure.


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## applemobile (Feb 14, 2012)

emolover said:


> Some of my friends know about my bisexuality but I could not tell my parents.
> 
> Kind of surprised they don't know because if they checked my history even on YouTube they could at least tell that I am strange. It's not the porn, it's just the stuff I do on the Internet is not straight(I watch makeup videos on YouTube.


 

Your parents know, they always know, but they want to hear it from you.


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## emolover (Feb 14, 2012)

applemobile said:


> Your parents know, they always know, but they want to hear it from you.


 
My parents are descriminating ****s. 

They say I have to marry a "pure white"(British or Irish) Catholic girl or else.


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## Sahid Velji (Feb 14, 2012)

emolover said:


> My parents are descriminating ****s.
> 
> They say I have to marry a "pure white"(British or Irish) Catholic girl or else.


 My parents want me to marry a Muslim girl (which will never happen) because they are Muslim.


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## Ninja Storm (Feb 14, 2012)

My parents don't care who I marry(being bi-racial with liberal parents has its perks).

But, to be honest, if people want to marry others of the same sex, who are you to stop them?


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## Kirjava (Feb 14, 2012)

StachuK1992 said:


> Could you two elaborate on their reactions?


 
Don't really wanna go into it, but just generally negative. Didn't get thrown out or anything but they were pretty devastated. Horrible stuff.

My parents always argue with my grandmother for being racist, but think homophobia is perfectly acceptable.


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## Tortin (Feb 14, 2012)

Oh hey, this thread has resurfaced.

Everyone here keeps mentioning the Kinsey Scale which I think is great for illustrating that sexuality is more of a spectrum than three separate, rigid identities, but it's pretty flawed, too. It waaay oversimplifies sexuality and is also pretty binarist. I saw some pretty cool sexuality spectrum illustrations floating around tumblr a while back, but I doubt I could find them now. 

Re: Youtube history thing: Dear youtube, I love that you recommend Lily Loveless interviews, Tegan and Sara songs, Veronica Mars clips, and fan-vids of my favourite ships, but pleeeeeease give me an option to hide the recommended videos because I'd rather not have people look over my shoulder and make assumptions.


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## bluecloe45 (Feb 14, 2012)

Here is an interesting video I found while looking at Occupy DC videos. Its a conservative (openly gay man) arguing against occupy protesters.






Go occupy DC!


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## aronpm (Feb 15, 2012)

emolover said:


> It's not the porn, it's just the stuff I do on the Internet is not straight(I watch makeup videos on YouTube.


 
I do that sometimes. It isn't gay.


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## Cool Frog (Feb 15, 2012)

Cheese11 said:


> I would have to disagree on this one.


 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_animals_displaying_homosexual_behavior


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## PandaCuber (Feb 15, 2012)

emolover said:


> Kind of surprised they don't know because if they checked my history even on YouTube they could at least tell that I am strange. It's not the porn, it's just the stuff I do on the Internet is not straight(I watch makeup videos on YouTube.


 
Do you actually put makeup on? 
if you do, they still dont realize it!?
if you dont, im sure they still know.


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## emolover (Feb 15, 2012)

PandaCuber said:


> Do you actually put makeup on?
> if you do, they still dont realize it!?
> if you dont, im sure they still know.


 
If you go to my channel you will see that I never have makeup on in my videos. The only time I put makeup on is for these silly pictures I send a girl(he) that I met on newgrounds. I wear it to concerts though.

I really don't think they know because when my aunt admited she was gay, they flipped there ****. My dad also get angry when he sees a gay person in public.


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## PandaCuber (Feb 15, 2012)

emolover said:


> If you go to my channel you will see that I never have makeup on in my videos. The only time I put makeup on is for these silly pictures I send a girl(he) that I met on newgrounds. I wear it to concerts though.
> 
> I really don't think they know because when my aunt admited she was gay, they flipped there ****. My dad also get angry when he sees a gay person in public.


 
Humans are too close minded.


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## Specs112 (Feb 15, 2012)

PandaCuber said:


> Humans are too close minded.


 
People are stupid.


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## qqwref (Feb 15, 2012)

People often believe what they've been taught, and hen you grow up in a culture that says "X is wrong", many adults will end up believing it. I think we're moving towards a culture that doesn't have a problem with LGTBQ people, but we're not actually there yet and it'll take a while.

This quote isn't relevant, but I think the same idea holds here:
"A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it." -Max Planck

PS: Don't lump every person together, there are a lot of us


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## Stefan (Feb 15, 2012)

emolover said:


> when my aunt admitted she was gay


 
"admit" sounds so negative... (or is that just me not being a native English speaker?)


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## ben1996123 (Feb 15, 2012)

People who think that gay people are stupid are stupid.

I'm not gay but I'm not against it or anything.


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## Sahid Velji (Feb 15, 2012)

The reason I dislike most teenagers (notice "most", not all) is because they can be so immature at times. Making fun of someone's sexual orientation is not funny at all. "Gay" is used as a derogatory term way too often here in North America, I guess people just like to sound "cool" in front of their friends (I see this a lot). An example is a past friend of mine who saw a guy with his shirt tucked in, with glasses. My friend then proceeded to yell, "Hey! You're a gay f**king faggot." I tried to tell my friend that you can't just assume someone's sexual orientation, he thought I was stupid and walked away. Many, many teens are way too immature about sexuality, which I find quite disappointing. Sorry for the rant, it's just something I would like to share, I don't get too share things like this very often.


Stefan said:


> "admit" sounds so negative... (or is that just me not being a native English speaker?)


 It does sound negative in a sense, I guess better verbs would be "announce" or "concede"? Admit sounds as if it's a crime to be gay.


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## somerandomkidmike (Feb 15, 2012)

StachuK1992 said:


> Could you two elaborate on their reactions?
> Doesn't have to be public, just curious.


 
My mom didn't really mind. My dad didn't talk to me that day at all, even though he was over for 3-ish hours. All my friends seem to be fine with it. I don't think my older brother knows, since he was away, but I think his reaction would be the most negative.


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## Sahid Velji (Feb 15, 2012)

somerandomkidmike said:


> All my friends seem to be fine with it.


 Be glad you have friends like that.


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## thackernerd (Feb 15, 2012)

emolover said:


> If you go to my channel you will see that I never have makeup on in my videos. The only time I put makeup on is for these silly pictures I send a girl(he) that I met on newgrounds. I wear it to concerts though.
> 
> I really don't think they know because when my aunt admited she was gay, they flipped there ****. My dad also get angry when he sees a gay person in public.



Have your ever told your aunt, or would she just go straight to your parents?


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## BlueDevil (Feb 15, 2012)

emolover said:


> My dad also get angry when he sees a gay person in public.



Well then it's probably good that he didn't watch today's google doodle. It shows couples (like milk and cookie, alien and astronaut, and a gay couple). Google not only supports homosexuality, but also inter-species sexuality and inanimate object sexuality.


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## emolover (Feb 15, 2012)

thackernerd said:


> Have your ever told your aunt, or would she just go straight to your parents?


 
I wouldn't talk to that crazy ***** even if she was the last person on earth besides me. She killed one of my dogs and convinced my dying grandmother to give her all the money in her will so she could "find herself" in Brazil for a year. 

So no.


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## PandaCuber (Feb 15, 2012)

emolover said:


> I wouldn't talk to that crazy ***** even if she was the last person on earth besides me. She killed one of my dogs and convinced my dying grandmother to give her all the money in her will so she could "find herself" in Brazil for a year.
> 
> So no.


 
Dude, your family is messed up...<3


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## Hershey (Feb 15, 2012)

emolover said:


> I wouldn't talk to that crazy ***** even if she was the last person on earth besides me. She killed one of my dogs and convinced my dying grandmother to give her all the money in her will so she could "find herself" in Brazil for a year.
> 
> So no.



WTF?


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## emolover (Feb 15, 2012)

PandaCuber said:


> Dude, your family is messed up...<3


 


Hershey said:


> WTF?


 
It's only her that is the crazy nut case. Rest of my aunts and uncles work in the government or are in a band right now.


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## Stefan (Feb 15, 2012)

BlueDevil said:


> Well then it's probably good that he didn't watch today's google doodle. It shows couples (like milk and cookie, alien and astronaut, and a gay couple). Google not only supports homosexuality, but also inter-species sexuality and inanimate object sexuality.


 
How did milk+cookie or the gay couple have sex there?


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## somerandomkidmike (Feb 15, 2012)

Sahid Velji said:


> Be glad you have friends like that.


 
Not all of them are like that. The ones that aren't fine with it, aren't my friends anymore. I'm the exact same person as I was before.


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## Kirjava (Feb 15, 2012)

Sahid Velji said:


> "Gay" is used as a derogatory term way too often here in North America



Most of my gay friends use gay as an adjective. I think that if anything, this word usage dissociates the word from it's original meaning. They're not actually claiming the person is a massive homo, they're just using something they think is an insult.



somerandomkidmike said:


> Not all of them are like that. The ones that aren't fine with it, aren't my friends anymore. I'm the exact same person as I was before.



Yeah, pretty much all of my friends were cool with it except a few that found it weird. They got over it soon enough though.


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## Ezy Ryder (Feb 15, 2012)

Aren't countries like USA or UK more tolerable than... most of the rest? Most of people in Poland think that being a homosexual is a choice, and I even heard once one guy saying that gay couples shouldn't be able to adopt children, because "they'll surely make them gay too".


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## Kirjava (Feb 15, 2012)

Ezy Ryder said:


> Most of people in Poland think that being a homosexual is a choice


 
I think it can be. Either way, I don't see what being a choice has to do with anything.


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## RyanO (Feb 15, 2012)

I think sexuality is an interesting issue. I've experimented with another guy before, but it wasn't arousing at all. I am usually attracted to lesbians. Even when I'm attracted to a girl that doesn't fit the lesbian stereotype I often learn that they are gay. I would say that probably 75% of the women I'm attracted to are gay.


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## BrainOfSweden (Feb 15, 2012)

Ezy Ryder said:


> Aren't countries like USA or UK more tolerable than... most of the rest? Most of people in Poland think that being a homosexual is a choice, and I even heard once one guy saying that gay couples shouldn't be able to adopt children, because "they'll surely make them gay too".


It's getting more and more accepted in Sweden. Those who don't tolerate homsexuality are usually old fashioned people, they mostly live on the country side that are more or less isolated from the rest of the world. Trust me, I've lived in really small town in the forest for about 18 years. But overall, it's tolerated. Haven't you seen the fundamentalists all over the world raging over Sweden because some of us want to allow gay marriage in church xD? I even now a few gay priests (that are not pedophiles which some may think)


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## Kirjava (Feb 15, 2012)

http://www.godhatestheworld.com/sweden/index.html


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## Godmil (Feb 15, 2012)

Is that site satire?


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## tigerrose (Feb 15, 2012)

I don't think sexuality is a choice. I think recognizing your actual orientation is a choice (as stated earlier, many people choose to let society dictate what they should find attractive). 
I thought I was straight until I was almost 18. My mom always wanted me to marry a nice Jewish boy and have two kids. However, there had been many signs that I was also attracted to women... As a basic example, when I first watched porn I thought the guys were all ugly and was mostly into the lesbian stuff. But I managed to ignore this for many years until a silly game of truth or dare made me start thinking about it. This realization didn't make me dislike men, but only that I can be attracted to women too. It hasn't been easy to be in a relationship with another girl, and my family and friends will treat me differently than when I've dated guys. Honestly, if I could control my brain I'd probably choose to be straight since it's so much easier. But as I cannot, I just accept it and find friends who like me for who I am.


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## Rune (Feb 15, 2012)

"It's getting more and more accepted in Sweden. Those who don't tolerate homsexuality are usually old fashioned people, they mostly live on the country side that are more or less isolated from the rest of the world."

The silent majority is more silent than ever.


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## BrainOfSweden (Feb 15, 2012)

Kirjava said:


> http://www.godhatestheworld.com/sweden/index.html


I don't know if that's a serious site, but that's what I'm talking about.



Rune said:


> "It's getting more and more accepted in Sweden. Those who don't tolerate homsexuality are usually old fashioned people, they mostly live on the country side that are more or less isolated from the rest of the world."
> The silent majority is more silent than ever.


Sorry, I don't think I understand what you mean


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## 5BLD (Feb 15, 2012)

The majority are those who don't speak up; those against aren't as vocal as those who support. At least that's what I got from it...


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## Owen (Feb 15, 2012)

That website is run by the Westboro baptist church, and is serious. Assuming the whole organization isn't one huge trolling attempt, as some believe.


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## somerandomkidmike (Feb 15, 2012)

The Westboro Baptist Church kind of makes me laugh a little bit.


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