# Having trouble identifying wrong/correct edges in EO



## chue.hsien (Oct 11, 2007)

hey, i just started learning BLD around 7 hours ago, and i still cant figure out which are the wrongly flipped edges.. i already know CO and CP, stuck on EO now.. 

could some make a video with a given scramble, and show an example of which are the flipped ones?


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## joey (Oct 11, 2007)

In U/D layer
# 1. If the piece has a U/D color, correct if this is on U/D, incorrect if on F/B/R/L.
# 2. Otherwise, correct if F/B color is on F/B/R/L, incorrect if on U/D.

In the middle layer
# 3. If the piece has a U/D color, correct if this is on R/L, incorrect if on F/B.
# 4. Otherwise, look at either one of the two stickers and the adjacent center. If these two colors are same or on opposite sides, correct. Otherwise, incorrect.


Taken straight from http://cubefreak.net/blindfoldcubing_guide.html


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## Jack (Oct 11, 2007)

Another way to think of it is just that all edges should be able to be put into their solved position (correctly oriented) without using L, L', R, R' (this also means no M or M'). Any edges that cannot get into their correct positions are wrongly oriented. I did this when I started, and eventually I just figured out the patterns that joey said myself.


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## chue.hsien (Oct 11, 2007)

ok thx a lot.. i thk i get it =D


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## CorwinShiu (Oct 12, 2007)

It also helps if you always start with a fixed face. I always start with yellow on top, with green on front. If the "1" spot is correct, then I turn the cube so blue is in front. That almost never happens though.


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## Joël (Oct 26, 2007)

Jack said:


> Another way to think of it is just that all edges should be able to be put into their solved position (correctly oriented) without using L, L', R, R' (this also means no M or M'). Any edges that cannot get into their correct positions are wrongly oriented. I did this when I started, and eventually I just figured out the patterns that joey said myself.



I hope you mean <L, R, U, D, F2, B2>. That's what most people use. The edge is oriented correcly if you can solve it using only those moves. If you *need* F or B to solve it, it's 'flipped', according to *this* particular definition (there are other possible definitions that work equally well).


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## masterofthebass (Oct 26, 2007)

Joel, According to Macky's site, L and R are not allowed. It doesn't really matter which faces you use, as long as one of the two pairs isn't allowed. You just have to be consistent.


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## KConny (Oct 26, 2007)

I don't get why Macky restricts singels on L and R when his buffer is UF. You can't do F singels annyway, without doing U, because that would move the UF peice. So i recently changed to no singels on F/B since R/L are faster and easier to execute.


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## tim (Oct 26, 2007)

KConny said:


> I don't get why Macky restricts singels on L and R when his buffer is UF. You can't do F singels annyway, without doing U, because that would move the UF peice. So i recently changed to no singels on F/B since R/L are faster and easier to execute.



Macky uses a buffer?


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## macky (Oct 27, 2007)

I don't think it would be considered a buffer. If UF is already solved, I start with a different edge. For any new cycle, I start with the lowest-numbered edge.

KConny's argument about not being able to do F single without doing U in my set-up is one that I hadn't thought about. This isn't always true since I do cycles on faces other than U as well (like F, for example). Assuming that UF is not solved, is there actually a big difference in number of moves between the two different possible restrictions?

I'm actually considering switching to the other restriction after talking to Leyan and some others who uses <{L, R, U, D, F2, B2}>.


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## Pedro (Oct 27, 2007)

hey Macky
nice to see you here 

I also use some cycles on F face (and B), like UF FL BR or UF FL FR or so

I also considered changing the L, R, U, D, F2, B2...Leyan did it, Tyson too...and I think it will be good...I did a kind of statistic a while ago, counting the number of flipped edges on both "systems" and the same scramble...let me see if I can find it


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## Pedro (Oct 27, 2007)

well, I found it, but it was kinda wrong 

do I'm doing another one...will post results soon


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## Lucas Garron (Oct 27, 2007)

Is everyone trying {L, R, D, U, F2, B2} now?
I wanted to try it, but I decided to stop only because I'm very sure I'll switch to M2 (and therefore don't want to tamper with my fast backup method).
And maybe because I visualize algs during memo an would have to get used to a new system...

I would so have liked to learn {L, R, D, U, F2, B2} first...

Macky, why did you have to make your guide so easy that I understood and adopted it before realizing that EO restrictions could be nicer?


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## Pedro (Oct 27, 2007)

ok, here it goes...let's hope the forum doesn't mess it up

UDFB | UDRL

L F2 D' F R L' F B' D' F D R' D2 L' R2 B' D2 U L' R D2 B' R' F' R'

1 | o | - |
2 | - | - |
3 | - | - |
4 | - | - |
5 | - | o |
6 | - | o |
7 | o | o |
8 | - | - |
9 | - | - |
10 | o | - |
11 | o | o |
12 | - | - |
---------
-----4---4

U R2 U2 L D2 R D' L' R D F B' D2 L2 B L2 D R B' L R2 D2 L' R F'

1 | - | o |
2 | - | - |
3 | - | - |
4 | o | o |
5 | o | - |
6 | - | o |
7 | o | - |
8 | - | - |
9 | - | - |
10 | - | - |
11 | o | - |
12 | - | o |
---------
-----4---4

D L' D2 L2 U2 R2 U F2 R D2 B2 U D' L B2 D2 L' D U2 F R' D' U R2 U'

1 | x | x |
2 | x | |
3 | x | |
4 | | |
5 | | x |
6 | x | |
7 | x | |
8 | x | |
9 | | x |
10 | x | x |
11 | x | |
12 | | |
---------
8 4

D2 U' F2 U2 L U' R2 D' U B L' D' U' R2 D' U2 L' R2 B' U2 D L' R2 D' F2

1 | | |
2 | | |
3 | | |
4 | | |
5 | | x |
6 | | x |
7 | | |
8 | | |
9 | | |
10 | x | |
11 | x | x |
12 | | x |
---------
2 4

B2 L2 D2 U2 B2 D F D2 R D' F D2 B D' B L R2 B L U2 F2 L2 F B' L2

1 | x | |
2 | | x |
3 | | x |
4 | | |
5 | x | |
6 | | |
7 | | x |
8 | | x |
9 | x | x |
10 | | |
11 | | |
12 | x | x |
---------
4 6

B F2 U D B2 D2 B2 R D2 F R2 B' R' U2 R' B L U' L2 B' D2 L F' D' B2

1 | x | x |
2 | x | x |
3 | x | x |
4 | | |
5 | x | x |
6 | x | x |
7 | x | |
8 | | x |
9 | x | |
10 | | |
11 | | |
12 | x | |
---------
8 6

R' D F2 B' D2 L' D' L' U' F2 B2 L' U' L' B2 F2 L F B D' U F2 L' U B

1 | x | |
2 | | |
3 | | |
4 | | |
5 | x | |
6 | x | |
7 | x | |
8 | x | x |
9 | | |
10 | | x |
11 | | |
12 | x | |
---------
6 2

D F U' L' R' B2 R L2 U' R D2 R' B F U' R F D2 U R2 L F L2 U' F2

1 | | |
2 | | |
3 | x | |
4 | x | x |
5 | | |
6 | x | |
7 | | x |
8 | | |
9 | x | x |
10 | x | |
11 | x | x |
12 | | |
---------
6 4

R2 B2 F2 R2 L2 D R2 F2 D2 R B2 R D F2 D R2 B D2 U F B2 L R2 U R

1 | x | |
2 | | x |
3 | x | x |
4 | x | x |
5 | x | |
6 | x | |
7 | x | |
8 | x | x |
9 | | x |
10 | | |
11 | | |
12 | x | x |
---------
8 6

F' R' U2 L F2 L' R' B2 F2 D F B' U' B2 F' D2 L' B' F' U2 B' R L' F' U

1 | x | x |
2 | x | |
3 | x | x |
4 | | |
5 | x | |
6 | | x |
7 | | x |
8 | x | x |
9 | | |
10 | | x |
11 | | x |
12 | x | x |
---------
6 8

Average
|5.60|4.80|
SD
|2.07|1.69|


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## Pedro (Oct 27, 2007)

(was too lazy to format the rest )

well, this was a little sample, but UDRL gave lower average and lower SD...and I got 8 wrong ones just once, while I got 8 wrong ones 3 times with UDFB...

hmm...interesting...maybe some of the programmer experts here (I'm not an expert yet  I'm learning C/C++, but I'm not good at it yet) can make a more representative statistic...


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## Lucas Garron (Oct 27, 2007)

Pedro said:


> (was too lazy to format the rest )
> 
> well, this was a little sample, but UDRL gave lower average and lower SD...and I got 8 wrong ones just once, while I got 8 wrong ones 3 times with UDFB...
> 
> hmm...interesting...maybe some of the programmer experts here (I'm not an expert yet  I'm learning C/C++, but I'm not good at it yet) can make a more representative statistic...



Hmm; aren't most scramblers face-neutral? So it shouldn't matter how EO is defined (at least for these cases)?


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## Pedro (Oct 27, 2007)

what do you mean?


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## hait2 (Oct 28, 2007)

uhh yeah it should be irrelevant, avg # of unoriented edges should be the same no matter which u use. get a bigger sample (a few thousand scrambles using a good scrambler) and u'll see that it's true

i mean if for some reason it mattered .. people would rotate their cubes on y axis before scrambling lol


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## macky (Oct 28, 2007)

I was talking about the number of set-up moves during EP between the two restrictions, assuming that UF is not in place. The number of correctly oriented edges will clearly have the same average for both restrictions.


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## hait2 (Oct 29, 2007)

i see where kconny is coming from, but i don't really think it's relevant (i mean i can't think of a case where it would matter). the only reason you'd want to move the F face while u have an unsolved cubie (that you're currently solving) in UF is if another cubie that you want to cycle is on the F face (which already makes this a very very small subset of possible cases), in which case you can just cycle on the F face to begin with, thus avoiding the problem entirely

edit: well i guess it would save you a setup move in the (very) rare case that you have a 3cycle in which you have two of the cubies already in Ulayer and the third cubie somewhere on the F face which could be put to the Ulayer via a single L/L' or R/R'. (something like a 1 4 5 edge)

currently of course, i'd solve a (145) for example with something like R2 D' or E L (probably the latter)

oh well, since i execute so slow anyway, this will probably increase my times due to increase cube rotations while having to cycle on the R or L faces, increasing my chance of rotating it back wrong, and just in general annoying me. maybe someone else might find it worthwhile to switch though


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## KConny (Nov 2, 2007)

First of, sorry, it's not a buffer, it's a starting position.

I did Mackys way when i first learned BLD. But had a feeling changing restriction would make it easier. I have UB as starting position, why I'll explain later. After changing restriction I'm getting easier set up moves, I actually never use B and F singles nor doubles. All cases can be set up by D's and R/L. I also got a rule saying singles should be executed first. Example cycle: UB BL DF is setup by L D R2 and not D R2 L. I also feel that permutations over L/R is needs a cube rotation that's easier than those for F/B. I don't know if it's fewer moves this way, it just works better for me.

At one point I changed my starting position to UB for edges and UBL for corners. This because I didn't know a 3 cycle edges both clockwise and couter clockwise with UL UF UR but I did for UL UB UR. I also changed the corner starter position because if I get parity it's almost always ULB and UB that's left. And they are right next to each other making F R free for the other two pieces.


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## Joël (Nov 15, 2007)

Pedro said:


> (was too lazy to format the rest )
> 
> well, this was a little sample, but UDRL gave lower average and lower SD...and I got 8 wrong ones just once, while I got 8 wrong ones 3 times with UDFB...
> 
> hmm...interesting...maybe some of the programmer experts here (I'm not an expert yet  I'm learning C/C++, but I'm not good at it yet) can make a more representative statistic...



You don't have to program anything for that. Both systems are equal in terms of howmany edges are flipped. C'mon that's not rocketscience .

(Can be different on 1 scramble, but equal on average, of course).


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