# 4x4x4 'K4' Method



## Kirjava (Jul 16, 2006)

Here is my new method for the 4x4x4 cube:

http://www.snkenjoi.com/k4/index.html

I tryed to get an original method, as Per's centres step can only be done fast by Per.

I'd like to hear what people think. I prefer it to anything else I've used so far. I'm gonna do move count averages tomorrow.

Comments?

~Thom


----------



## pjk (Jul 17, 2006)

Thom, thats looks very interesting. I'm going to have to try it out. Thanks for sharing.


----------



## Erik (Jul 17, 2006)

I tried a few (4) solves with it with a best time of 2:30 or so... the last step is a bit difficult stil... I think it could be fast if you could speed it up a little and practise with it...


----------



## Erik (Jul 19, 2006)

By the way, I can solve 5x5 with this too...


----------



## Me (Jul 19, 2006)

Looks very interesting, i'll try it some time.


----------



## DDRKirby(ISQ) (Jul 25, 2006)

besides RUR'U'RwR'URU'r' and RwUR'U'Rw'URU'R'

the two algs

RUR'U'RwwRw'URU'Rww'RwR'
and its inverse,
RwwRw'RUR'U'Rww'RwURU'R'
are also useful for 3-edge commuters for the last layer (i use columns first)

(where Rw is a double layer turn, and Rww is a "triple" layer turn)


----------



## Kirjava (Jul 25, 2006)

wow, you're right, they are really good. don't think much of the notation though 

could you gimmie a little more info about the method? I don't know how columns first works...

~Thom

Oh, I found some great 2-cycle algs today

lrD2l'r'UlrD2l'r'U' was the basis for most of them..


----------



## DDRKirby(ISQ) (Jul 25, 2006)

The only major columns-first cuber that I know of is Akimoto--

his overview of the solution is here.

my method uses his as a starting point, then...changes some stuff. (first part and last part are different)

essentially, you first get the columns (akimoto does four white corners followed by insterting edge pairs...I instead match edge pairs, then do an F2L-like thing...), then you do white center pieces, followed by 3 pairs of white edges, then all other centers (using the free white edge pair), then complete the final white edge pair, then dooo last layer.

it's quite fun to do, actually. works on 5x5x5 kinda but it's...ugly. or maybe i just dont know enough to apply it there.

in any case, centers first -seems- like it's in general faster, looking at all the fastest times on speedcubing.com. however, you can't really make that good of a judgement because no one really uses columns first. except akimoto, and he got an average of 1:18.96, which is....pretty great. so i know the method has potential.

i dont know exactly how to get there though...there's not much documentation...watching akimoto's solving vids helped.

right now i'm struggling around the 2 min barrier. used to be able to break 2 mins fairly often but then i started experimenting with other things so i need to figure it all out.

for last layer (i use some of these for inserting the 4th edge pair too), i use 8 different algs, which are all based on RUR'U'rR'URU'r'...

1) RUR'U'rR'URU'r'
2) inverse of #1
3) R'U'RUr'RU'R'Ur ("reverse" of #1)
4) inverse of #3
5) RUR'U'RwwRw'URU'Rww'RwR' (this notation sucks but i dont really know how else to describe it accurately--its basically #1, but...moving a different slice)
6) inverse of #6
7) R'U'RURww'RwU'R'URwwRw'R ("reverse" of #5)
8) inverse of #7

so i use those, plus set-up moves if necessary.

in most cases I can pair up one pair of last layer edges while inserting the last white edge pair. then i usually do COLL->3x3x3 edge permute->1 or 2 of the above algs->fix parity if necessary.


----------



## Athefre (Jul 29, 2006)

This is pretty similar to the way I solve the 5x5.

1. Solve left block
2. Make a line with all of the centers on the left and right, leaving the M center pieces unsolved
3. Solve right block.
4. Solve M except for the stuff in U
5. Solve U.


----------



## Kirjava (Jul 29, 2006)

Hmm. Akimoto's method looks very interesting. I did a few practise solves with it before and I think it has potentional to get better. At the moment, with my method I'm averaging about 1:40.

~Thom


----------



## Me (Oct 2, 2006)

think the same meathod can be applied to a 5x5?


----------



## pjk (Oct 2, 2006)

Me: Erik mentioned above: "By the way, I can solve 5x5 with this too..."

My guess would be yes. I may try this method out. 5x5 is really slow for me now, and 4x4 average is at 2:20, so maybe I can get faster with this method.


----------



## pjk (Apr 15, 2007)

Anyone else using this now? Try it on the 5x5. I know a couple people who use it on that.


----------



## Kirjava (Apr 15, 2007)

I'm writing the new K4 guide for bigcubes.com

wait until it comes out

then you can use it to it's full potential.


----------



## Erik (Apr 15, 2007)

Have you also included these extra steps, i'd call them improvement:
1. while pairing up the last edge of your cross also solve a middle layer edge.
2. for solving the corners also solve one of the other edges like F2L
3. I have to show you this


----------



## MooseSSU (Nov 22, 2007)

*about the site*

For some reason I can't connect to the website. I want to learn k4 really badly but I just can't find a good place for Commutators yet. Does anyone have suggestions.


----------



## aznblur (Nov 22, 2007)

http://www.youtube.com/user/fallofshadows

There are k4 tutorial videos there.


----------



## pjk (Nov 23, 2007)

I know member "Richard" uses k4 method for 5x5 and can solve around 2:20 or so.


----------



## MooseSSU (Nov 29, 2007)

Yea I have watched Fallofshadows videos but he dosen't have his parity video up fo some reason. I need a parity tutorial on comutators.


----------



## PetraPine (Sep 14, 2020)

Ya update on that,
is there a tutorial on commutator parity now adays?


----------



## PapaSmurf (Sep 14, 2020)

The difference between this bump and all other bumps is that it was a genuine question about a pretty cool method. On the topic of 4x4 parity, you just really need to learn algs. You could technically just do a quarter turn of a slice move, but you would be much better off learning the algs.


----------



## PetraPine (Sep 14, 2020)

PapaSmurf said:


> The difference between this bump and all other bumps is that it was a genuine question about a pretty cool method. On the topic of 4x4 parity, you just really need to learn algs. You could technically just do a quarter turn of a slice move, but you would be much better off learning the algs.


Were are the algs?
i couldnt even find pure oll parity lol


----------



## PapaSmurf (Sep 14, 2020)

On the K4 website.


----------



## PetraPine (Sep 14, 2020)

the website seems to be down...


----------



## PapaSmurf (Sep 14, 2020)

http://snk.digibase.ca/k4/


----------



## Gnome (Sep 14, 2020)

ObscureCuber said:


> the website seems to be down...



If you try to connect to https it will be "down", you have to force http


----------



## PapaSmurf (Sep 14, 2020)

I just had a couple of ideas for this method. Imma try some stuff then edit this post.

[EDIT]
Do Yau up to cross. Now solve F2L-1, then keyhole in the final 3 edges to solve F3L-1. Solve F2L of the final slot, CLL, then, using the empty uFR edge, keyhole in the rest of the edges until they’re all either solved or you have parity, then parity.


----------



## Gnome (Sep 14, 2020)

As an aside I wouldn't recommend you learn algorithms and commutators exclusively from that site but rather mess around with things yourself / try to find other algorithms that you can execute well / have easier finger tricks / are more intuitive

These are some of the L2E comms I currently use, all rotation less and 2-gen ish

EDIT: little letters are only the slice.



Spoiler



4x4 Last 2 Edges:

OLL Parity
r U2 r U2 r' U2 r U2 l' U2 r U2 r' U2 l r2 U2 r'

PLL Parity
r2 U2 r U2 r2 U2 r2 U2 r U2 r2 U2

Oll & PLL
Negative

2 single edge flips
L - r U2 r U2 M' U2 r U2 r' U2 l U2 r2
R - l' U2 l' U2 M' U2 l' U2 l U2 r' U2 l2

2 single edge swaps
/ - r U2 r' U2 r' U2 l U2 r' U2 r U2 M' U2 r2 U2 r'
\ - l' U2 l U2 l U2 r' U2 l U2 l' U2 M' U2 l2 U2 l

2 split edge flips (checkerboard)
R - r U2 r2 U2 r' U2 r U2 r' U2 r2 U2 r
L - l' U2 l2 U2 l U2 l' U2 l U2 l2 U2 l'

2 swapped, 2 flipped
Flip on L - r U2 M' U2 r2 U2 r' U2 r U2 r' U2 r' U2 l U2 r'
Flip on R - l' U2 M' U2 l2 U2 l U2 l' U2 l U2 l U2 r' U2 l`


----------



## PetraPine (Sep 14, 2020)

Gnome said:


> As an aside I wouldn't recommend you learn algorithms and commutators exclusively from that site but rather mess around with things yourself / try to find other algorithms that you can execute well / have easier finger tricks / are more intuitive
> 
> These are some of the L2E comms I currently use, all rotation less and 2-gen ish
> 
> ...


im going to learn Pll parity, than learn these (-=

your pll parity doesnt work because it disrupts CLL


----------



## Gnome (Sep 14, 2020)

ObscureCuber said:


> your pll parity doesnt work because it disrupts CLL



r is just the slice.

Sorry, should probably have said that earlier..


----------



## Christopher Mowla (Sep 15, 2020)

FYI to all of you folks who are newer members, there was a follow-up thread in which there was a lot more discussion. For example, checkout all content under *K4 Method Content* in my cubing contributions post. (That's ALL content between the *K4 Method Content* and *3x3x3 Cube Content* headings.)

As far as parity, you can check the links under *nxnxn Rubik's Cube Parity Algorithm Content* in my cubing contributions post.

And regarding commutators, yes, it's better for you to explore them yourself, but it wouldn't hurt to check out my video on introduction to commutators, as I generalize the 8 move Niklas commutator to solve/generate cases on the 4x4x4, but also of course (for the majority of the video) show you how to solve the entire 3x3x3 pretty much with just commutators (some with a few premoves).

But there is a lot more to parity and commutators than I will discuss here (unless prompted with more specifics), but I bet this recent post of mine on the twistypuzzles forum should be an eye opener for* almost* everyone. And for parity, just follow the links next to algorithms (to the right of them in the form [44], for example) on the 4x4x4 parity algorithms speedsolving wiki page (which I wrote). If you haven't seen that page, I would encourage you to read the introduction. (And yeah, the Visit Channel link in my profile goes to an actual YouTube channel. In there, I have a few playlists of parity algorithm derivations.)


----------



## Username: Username: (Sep 15, 2020)

Ayy yo I switched to K4 bout a month ago, pretty fun.


----------



## PetraPine (Sep 15, 2020)

Username: Username: said:


> Ayy yo I switched to K4 bout a month ago, pretty fun.


switched to it a couple days ago getting a grasp of comms rn,
average like 1:05-1:10


----------



## Gnome (Sep 15, 2020)

Christopher Mowla said:


> FYI to all of you folks who are newer members, there was a follow-up thread in which there was a lot more discussion.



Alas, my former account will forever be the last post in that thread, I hope!
(I no longer own the email address associated with the account so I don't use it)



Christopher Mowla said:


> For example, checkout all content under *K4 Method Content* in my cubing contributions post. (That's ALL content between the *K4 Method Content* and *3x3x3 Cube Content* headings.)



Yikes, clearly past-me didn't notice any of this stuff because it's pure gold for anyone wanting to learn this method or even those already experienced with it just wanting to expand their knowledge, thanks!



Username: Username: said:


> Ayy yo I switched to K4 bout a month ago, pretty fun.





ObscureCuber said:


> switched to it a couple days ago getting a grasp of comms rn,
> average like 1:05-1:10



The hoard grows! Yay \o/

If we keep going at this rate then maybe by the year 3000 we'll make up 1% of the community 

I switched to it back in 2011 mostly because I sucked at edge pairing, and still do (my 6x6 with Freeslice is almost a minute worse than with k4) as well as 3x3 in general so having a direct solve method totally not derived from 3x3 in any way that you could "grow into" per-se was really appealing to me and still remains this way.


----------



## Username: Username: (Sep 15, 2020)

Gnome said:


> Alas, my former account will forever be the last post in that thread, I hope!
> (I no longer own the email address associated with the account so I don't use it)


Wait you're the guy that has the minecraft PFP?


----------



## Gnome (Sep 15, 2020)

Username: Username: said:


> Wait you're the guy that has the minecraft PFP?



Yes, that was I, many years ago.. back when I was merely interested in MineCraft because Redstone was cool.. Nowadays I rarely play MineCraft but I have used that knowledge well because I am now studying Boolean Logic alongside Natural and Formal language theory as part of my Computer Science Masters Degree which ironically also links quite well to Speedsolving 

Back on topic I've been firing through this post and it really is amazing.. I wouldn't be suprised if by the end of the year I'm fully converted to 2-gen ELL as opposed to my current intuitive approach.

EDIT: Some junk so far, using the naming from Thom's site and Mowla's Grouping.. I'm still reverse engineering some but I'll update it as I go
EDIT: List it now complete, let me know if there are any errors.

Group 1: (Trivial but for the sake of completeness)

3_1 - [R U R' U', r] -> R U R' U' r U R U' Rw'
3_2 - [r, R U R' U'] -> Rw U R' U' r' U R U' R'
3_3 - [L' U' L U, l'] -> L' U' L U l' U' L' U Lw
3_4 - [l', L' U' L U] -> Lw' U' L U l' U' L' U L

Group 2: (Semi trivial)

3_5 - [R U2 R': [R' U' R U, r']] -> R U2 R2 U' R U r' U' R' U R Rw U2 R'
3_6 - [R U2 R': [r', R' U' R U]] -> R U2 Rw' R' U' R U r U' R' U R2 U2 R'
3_7 - [R U2 R': [R U R' U', r]] -> R U' R' U' r U R U' r' U2 R'
3_8 - [R U2 R': [r, R U R' U']] -> R U2 r U R' U' r' U R U R'

Group 3:

3_9 - [R' U' R U': [r', U' R' U R]] -> R' U' R U' r' U' R' U r U' R U2 R' U R
3_10 - [R' U' R U': [U' R' U R, r']] -> R' U R U2 R' U r' U' R U r U R' U' R
3_11 - [R' U R U: [U R' U' R, r]] -> R' U R U2 R' U' r U R U' r' U' R' U' R
3_12 - [R' U R U: [r, U R' U' R]] -> R' U R U r U R' U' r' U R U2 R' U' R

Group 4:

3_13 - [Rw' U2 Rw: [r', R' U' R U]] -> Rw' U R U r U' R' U r' U2 Rw
3_14 - [Rw' U2 Rw: [R' U' R U, r']] -> Rw' U2 r U' R U r' U' R' U' Rw
3_15 - [Rw U2 Rw': [r, R U R' U']] -> Rw U' R' U' r' U R U' r U2 Rw'
3_16 - [Rw U2 Rw': [R U R' U', r]] -> Rw U2 r' U R' U' r U R U Rw'

Group 5:

3_17 - [r' U' r U': [R' U' R U, r']] -> r' U' r U' R' U' R U r' U' R' U Rw U r' U r
3_18 - [r' U' r U': [r', R' U' R U]] -> r' U' r U' Rw' U' R U r U' R' U R U r' U r
3_19 - [r2 U' r2: [r, R U R' U']] -> r2 U' r2 Rw U R' U' r' U R U' R' r2 U r2
3_20 - [r2 U' r2: [R U R' U', r]] -> r2 U' r2 R U R' U' r U R U' Rw' r2 U r2

Group 6:

3_21 - [r2 U': [r', R U R' U']] -> r2 U' r' R U R' U' r U R U' R' U r2
3_22 - [r2 U': [R U R' U', r']] -> r2 U' R U R' U' r' U R U' R' r U r2
3_23 - [U2 r2 U2: [r, R' U' R U]] -> U2 r2 U2 r R' U' R U r' U' R' U R U2 r2 U2
3_24 - [U2 r2 U2: [R' U' R U, r]] -> U2 r2 U2 R' U' R U r U' R' U R r' U2 r2 U2

Group 7:

3_25 - [r2 U2: [r', R U R' U']] -> r2 U2 r' R U R' U' r U R U' R' U2 r2
3_26 - [r2 U2: [R U R' U', r']] -> r2 U2 R U R' U' r' U R U' R' r U2 r2
3_27 - [U2 r2 U: [R' U' R U, r]] -> U2 r2 U r R' U' R U r' U' R' U R U' r2 U2
3_28 - [U2 r2 U: [r, R' U' R U]] -> U2 r2 U R' U' R U r U' R' U R r' U' r2 U2


----------

