# Should WCA Bring Back Age Statistics?



## okayama (Jul 9, 2013)

Is there no chance of revival of "Age vs. Speed" in WCA?
I heard from many competitors that the stat was quite nice to see,
for continuous motivation of speedcubing, especially for old ages.
I also strongly agree with the opinion.
Even if I'm not listed in the stat, the time with my age makes a
great target, and creates an emotional bridge for speedcubing.
(I like the list of oldest solvers, too)

If the stat will be not available forever, I'm worried that
not a few people will quit speedcubing too early, because
they feel just uninteresting and loose the motivation
for recording the time just becomes worse.
Sadly, I already heard voices saying such a thing several times.

In view of other sports, the scores by age groups or like the stat
seem to work well for encouraging continuous motivation.

I understand that the stat was deleted in accordance with the
WCA regulation 2d). However, I have never heard complaint
from the competitors in the list, and just heard that they are
proud of it. I heard from other competitors that they hope
they will get listed.

Therefore, I'd like to suggest an additional rule for Age vs. Speed
or such a stat. Like this:

2d+++) ADDITION
Competitors must agree that WCA may use their date of birth
for maintaining statistics.


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## Coolster01 (Jul 9, 2013)

So, many are wanting to bring back age vs speed and the age stats. I agree that it was cool to look at and set goals. It would be OK as long as people confirm that they can let their birthdate be public. Here are okayama's thoughts:



okayama said:


> Is there no chance of revival of "Age vs. Speed" in WCA?
> I heard from many competitors that the stat was quite nice to see,
> for continuous motivation of speedcubing, especially for old ages.
> I also strongly agree with the opinion.
> ...


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## BrainOfSweden (Jul 9, 2013)

I fully agree with this. To make the stats accurate, they could list the age of everyone that agrees, but at the same time provide a list of how many people are cubing within an age group, maybe even how many reached sub-x, without giving the names or exact times (as that would allow for easy look-up of the names).


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## mDiPalma (Jul 9, 2013)

How are birthdates sensitive information, again?


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## sneaklyfox (Jul 9, 2013)

mDiPalma said:


> How are birthdates sensitive information, again?



Birthdates are used for things like ID, credit cards, other security type things. And some people just don't want their ages made public for the world.


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## Stefan (Jul 9, 2013)

Coolster01 said:


> It would be OK as long as people confirm that they can let their birthdate be public.



From December 2008 until January 2013, every competitor actually did that.

If you check the regulations history, you'll see that during that time we had these:



> 2d)	All information (*except*: name, country, *date of birth*, gender, selected events and competition results) must be used for the competition only, and may only be given to other organisations/persons after permission from the competitor.
> 
> 2a)	Any person may be a competitor during a competition, if he:
> 2a1) accepts the WCA regulations;



But it was intentionally changed in the 2013 regulations, so I doubt that your argument will get accepted.


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## antoineccantin (Jul 9, 2013)

Stefan said:


> But it was intentionally changed in the 2013 regulations, so I doubt that your argument will get accepted.



Why exactly did it get changed?


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## mDiPalma (Jul 9, 2013)

sneaklyfox said:


> Birthdates are used for things like ID, credit cards, other security type things. And some people just don't want their ages made public for the world.



If that's the case, I'm pretty sure criminals would have a better time stealing birthdates off of the 1.1 billion Facebook users than the ~25,000 WCA speedcubers.


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## Stefan (Jul 9, 2013)

antoineccantin said:


> Why exactly did it get changed?



Not exactly sure, but the one reason I remember was that some Chinese kids apparently were forced to cube by their parents to get the youngest competitor record. Though the delegate I was told to ask if I wanted evidence for this being an issue, immediately replied and relativized it, ending with "So, maybe not so bad".

Anyway, if you want to know for sure about all reasons, I suggest to ask the WRC directly.


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## mark49152 (Jul 9, 2013)

sneaklyfox said:


> Birthdates are used for things like ID, credit cards, other security type things. And some people just don't want their ages made public for the world.



Year should be enough, and it should be optional.


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## sneaklyfox (Jul 9, 2013)

I was making a suggestion of why birthdate might be "sensitive".

I'd really like to see the age stats though.


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## mark49152 (Jul 9, 2013)

sneaklyfox said:


> I was making a suggestion of why birthdate might be "sensitive".
> 
> I'd really like to see the age stats though.



You were correct. I wouldn't want my DOB published. Age is OK though.


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## sneaklyfox (Jul 9, 2013)

Would just year and month (without date) be too much? And assume everyone was born on the first of the month. If this is too much then just year and assume everyone was born Jan. 1 of that year.


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## Stefan (Jul 9, 2013)

mark49152 said:


> You were correct. I wouldn't want my DOB published. Age is OK though.



If I told you my age (let's say 36 years and 123 days), you could compute my DOB.


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## mark49152 (Jul 9, 2013)

Stefan said:


> If I told you my age (let's say 36 years and 123 days), you could compute my DOB.



Age in whole years


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## sneaklyfox (Jul 9, 2013)

Stefan said:


> If I told you my age (let's say 36 years and 123 days), you could compute my DOB.



I think he meant age in just years (rough). So two people of the same "age" could technically be 364 days apart if one was born Jan. 1 and the other Dec. 31. I think this would pretty much eliminate the thing about parents forcing their kids to cube. I think there already was some kid who did it when he was 2. Granted, this would give an advantage to the people born on Jan. 1, but it's not like you get any special recognition for it.


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## TheNextFeliks (Jul 9, 2013)

How about only oldest because youngest is bad because parents force whereas it's personal preference for oldest?


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## Stefan (Jul 9, 2013)

sneaklyfox said:


> I think he meant age in just years (rough).



36.337 years, then (though maybe your "rough" means this isn't allowed). No, I'm not making this up to be a pain in the ass, I'm bringing this up because in the end, ages *were* printed like that (though just with one decimal, i.e., like 36.3).



sneaklyfox said:


> Granted, this would give an advantage to the people born on Jan. 1



It would probably make the Chinese stop using condoms near April 1st.



TheNextFeliks said:


> How about only oldest because youngest is bad because parents force whereas it's personal preference for oldest?



People can force their old parents, too.


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## CarlBrannen (Jul 9, 2013)

sneaklyfox said:


> Would just year and month (without date) be too much? And assume everyone was born on the first of the month. If this is too much then just year and assume everyone was born Jan. 1 of that year.



I agree.

Other sports (for example running) publish ages in 5-year increments as in "50+", "55+" ...

Trying to keep your birthday secret in today's world is going to be a little tough. It's listed on too many documents that are a matter of public record.

For example, your birth certificate is a matter of public record. For example, if you were born in California people can't obtain an "authorized" copy of your birth certificate but they can get an "informational" copy that has the same information but with the additional print "not valid for establishing identity" or something like that on it:
http://www.cdph.ca.gov/certlic/birthdeathmar/Pages/AthorizedCopyvsInformationalCopy.aspx

If you list people's age in terms of fractions as in 32.4 years, figuring out their exact birthday is a matter of watching how the fraction changes. With enough records, you'll be able to extract it. However, this is a lot of work, stealing identities is easier than that.


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## CarlBrannen (Jul 9, 2013)

If you're curious as to whether your birthdate (and exact age) is already a matter of public record, enter your name and approximate age into this website:
http://www.birthdatabase.com/query.php

I'm in there and so is my buddy but they only have 120 million records so you might not be included.


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## Lucas Garron (Jul 9, 2013)

I'm mostly the person responsible for the push to ensure that competitor birthdates are completely private, after several years of inconsistency. The only concrete thing I ever found someone tell me is that birthdates were being collected solely to tell apart competitors with the same names, but clearly we weren't adhering to that.

The issue basically comes down to this:



sneaklyfox said:


> Birthdates are used for things like ID, credit cards, other security type things. And some people just don't want their ages made public for the world.


We have birth data from a lot of countries, where competitors might have various expectations about how data is used.
At the very least, I will always argue against publishing data "in mass", e.g. putting birthdates on WCA profiles. Listing the age as a year isn't much better, because it still reveals some information, and it's possible to find out ages by checking pages every day to see when the age increases.

As a comparison, consider Facebook. Even with their usual disregard for privacy defaults, they help you keep your age private, and generally only show your birth month+day to your friends.
*Unfortunately*, the useful statistics for the WCA are the other way around: comparisons are interesting when you know the age, and the day of the year doesn't tell you much.


Now, there's no reason this policy couldn't change.
I think the most reasonable approach is to publish ages only when we have the competitor's explicit consent , and with a specific license to use it for e.g. age statistics (rather than a free "the WCA can publish it how they want"). That way, young/old competitors who care about age statistics can be visible on them. We could also ask organizers to contact competitors privately, saying "you would be on this record page, do you give us permission to display your name and age?"

But any decent proposal should address a few things:
- We have birthdates of competitors who may never compete again, who have not given consent for their age may be published, and quite possibly expect it to be private
- This policy either be opt-in, or very clear when a competitor registers.
- It shouldn't be too much of a logistical burden on competitors, organizers, and the WCA website team.
- Unlike sports with age divisions, there's no fundamental *need* for us to have birthdates in order to operate. So we should be clear to competitors about what it means to give their birthdate.

I think the simplest solution *if we had accounts on the WCA website* would be to make his a preference that can be selected during registration, with a specific and positively worded "do you allow us to publish your age for X, Y, and Z?" checkbox.


If people like age statistics, discussion is welcome. However, we need a concrete proposal for any changes. Preferably one that doesn't assume that competitors would like their ages to be published by default (even only some competitors, in statistics).


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## mark49152 (Jul 9, 2013)

Stefan said:


> 36.337 years, then (though maybe your "rough" means this isn't allowed). Now hm he t making this up to be a pain in the ass, I'm bringing this up because in the end, ages *were* printed like that (though just with one decimal, i.e., like 36.3)..


As I said above, I meant whole years. There's no reason to display someone's birthdate or age in days, it's just not relevant. 

Lucas makes sense above. I'd suggest collecting birth date, displaying only age in whole years, and making the whole thing optional for new registrants and opt-in for current ones. If you want to keep it private, don't give your birthdate and you'll be excluded from the stats.


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## cubernya (Jul 9, 2013)

Lucas Garron said:


> I think the simplest solution *if we had accounts on the WCA website* would be to make his a preference that can be selected during registration, with a specific and positively worded "do you allow us to publish your age for X, Y, and Z?" checkbox.



I thought the same thing when reading the top part of your post. If we created accounts on the website, then people can opt-in that way. The only problem is, how do we verify they are who they say they are.

Another option is to create a thread on the WCA forum and just have people post there. If they really want it to be public, I think they could create an account if they didn't have one.


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## Stefan (Jul 9, 2013)

Lucas Garron said:


> We have birth data from a lot of countries, where competitors *might have various expectations about how data is used*.



Well, in the 2008-2012 regulations, it was clear that birth dates could be made public, as they were explicitly excluded from the confidential data. And I never heard someone complain about it. Plus I'd be surprised if we "violated anybody's expectations" with what we actually did/do (highlight people for their achievements, and very few).



Lucas Garron said:


> I think the simplest solution *if we had accounts on the WCA website* would be to make his a preference



Yes, that would be better (it's actually one of the reasons I've been wanting accounts for a long time (never got around to do it, obviously)). Though, there would still be the issue with the kids being forced to cube.



Lucas Garron said:


> If people like age statistics, discussion is welcome. However, we need a concrete proposal for any changes.



Thanks. I appreciate you speaking up here, and being open for discussion.



mark49152 said:


> As I said above, I meant whole years.



Wow, I actually missed that post. Sorry.


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## qqwref (Jul 9, 2013)

TheNextFeliks said:


> How about only oldest because youngest is bad because parents force whereas it's personal preference for oldest?


This is a good point. Despite what Stefan said it is certainly far easier (morally, legally, logistically) to force a young child to spend most of their free time doing something (if you are their parent) than to force anyone else to do the same. 



Stefan said:


> Well, in the 2008-2012 regulations, it was clear that birth dates could be made public, as they were explicitly excluded from the confidential data. And I never heard someone complain about it. Plus I'd be surprised if we "violated anybody's expectations" with what we actually did/do (highlight people for their achievements, and very few).


This is also a very good point. I focus on the lack of complaints. Most competitors who have had their birth dates available to the WCA had no problem with it, and indeed, the vast majority of the birth information was never actually made available on the website. Anyway, even before the rule change, the WCA has generally been extremely careful with its birthdate information. I don't think theoretical complaints are enough to worry about our policies.



I would personally like to see age-related statistics return. One idea - which I haven't seen mentioned - is to use the exact dates in computing statistics, but to then display dates by years only. With multiple 4-year-old solvers they would be ordered by actual age in days, making the rank accurate, but they would be displayed simply as 4 years old. In fact, since age is computed as the difference between the birth date and the competition date, you couldn't just extract the date by refreshing every day - the age would not change unless the person broke their record. Indeed, a youngest solver's record age would *never* change.

Of course, I would also agree that only necessary ages should be displayed (so no appearance on WCA profiles, in public database exports, etc.) and that if anyone wishes they can request for their age information to not be shown or used in any way (which would make them ineligible for any age statistics).


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## CarlBrannen (Jul 10, 2013)

To get rid of the age information, in calculating ages, an obvious way is to take into account only two pieces of information: The year the person was born and the year the competition was given.

It's easy to verify that I was born Feb 28, 1958. So for a contest in 2013, my age would be one less than the difference or "54". That would mean that for any contest in the year 2013, my age would be 54.xx or 55.xx and so my age would be "54 or older", and my numbers would go into the "54" age group.

We might choose to model WCA behavior on US government FERPA regulations. These are the regulations that define what information about students is considered "public" and can be released without the permission of the students and/or their parents. Here is what the US government gives as the standard form to send to parents to give them notice that information can be made public without their explicit permission:

_If you do not want [School District] to disclose directory information from your child's education records without your prior written consent, you must notify the District in writing by [insert date]. [School District] has designated the following information as directory information: [Note: an LEA may, but does not have to, include all the information listed below.]

Student's name
Address
Telephone listing
Electronic mail address
Photograph
* Date and place of birth*
Major field of study
Dates of attendance
Grade level
Participation in officially recognized activities and sports
Weight and height of members of athletic teams
Degrees, honors, and awards received
The most recent educational agency or institution attended
Student ID number, user ID, or other unique personal identifier used to communicate in electronic systems that cannot be used to access education records without a PIN, password, etc. (A student's SSN, in whole or in part, cannot be used for this purpose.)
_http://www2.ed.gov/policy/gen/guid/fpco/ferpa/mndirectoryinfo.html

Here are some examples of public school records (in the US) showing date of birth for both college and school kids and various atheletes. I tried to avoid getting two links from the same school but after a while they all seem alike to me:
http://www.msuspartans.com/sports/m-baskbl/mtt/nix_derrick00.html
http://juniorpioneerssoccer.com/images/LAURAPROFILE1.pdf
http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/player/_/id/45913/mason-plumlee
http://webapp.rlc.edu/warriors/wrestling/bios.php
http://www.caller2.com/specials/islanders/menstats.html
http://byuhockey.org/offense.html
http://www.gozips.com/sports/fball/2013-14/releases/20130206zkp8d8
http://bigleaguefutures.net/1/2012/06/26/2013-mlb-draft-profile-austin-meadows/
http://www.kuathletics.com/sports/m-baskbl/mtt/jeff_withey_399962.html
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/g/gwynnto01.shtml
http://www.dontbelieveus.com/cobie-smulders-height-and-weight-favorites-hot/
http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/specials/michellewie/
http://www.mgoblue.com/sports/m-baskbl/mtt/spike_albrecht_817179.html
http://dramaticddt.wordpress.com/rosters/ddt-roster/
http://www.usrowing.org/Pressbox/AthleteBios/AdrienneMartelli.aspx
http://sports.yahoo.com/golf/champions/players/Tom+Kite/105
http://www.nfl.com/player/andrejohnson/2505551/profile
http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/player/_/id/40989/jeff-withey
http://www.gopsusports.com/sports/m-footbl/mtt/matthew_mcgloin_372057.html
http://wmpeople.wm.edu/asset/index/rugbym/roster2012
http://www2.suffolk.edu/15424.html
http://www.shepherd.edu/2ramsweb/HARRIS2003.html
http://webpages.eng.wayne.edu/~aj7668/wsu.html
http://www.unc.edu/~waller/pictures.html
http://college.holycross.edu/studentorgs/hockey/info_fpowers.htm
http://www.lcsc.edu/athletics/Baseball/2002/02baseprodietz.htm
http://www.spsu.edu/mensbasketball/DevonButlerbio_32.pdf

I was doing a US search but this one from Australia slipped in:
http://www.mounties.com.au/site_files/s1001/files/2013/squads/Brandon_Bannici.pdf


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## Stefan (Jul 10, 2013)

CarlBrannen said:


> I was doing a US search but this one from Australia slipped in:
> http://www.mounties.com.au/site_files/s1001/files/2013/squads/Brandon_Bannici.pdf



That's gotta be a joke. When I saw the pic, I actually said "sexy boy" and then I looked at the text and immediately read "Hooker".


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## CarlBrannen (Jul 10, 2013)

Well he won't be 21 until later this year. Here's another, with no "hooker" involved:
http://www.mounties.com.au/site_files/s1001/files/2013/squads/Jade_Ferguson.pdf

Got to be one of those US vs Australia slang word differences.

Some more Australian birth records for competitors:
http://www.goldcoast.com.au/sport/gold-coast-blaze-player-profiles.html
http://www.birdclubs.com.au/bird-clubs-articles/1998/1/28/falcons-1998/
http://www.perthredbacks.asn.au/profiles/boys/Ty Barnes.html
http://www.worldnet.com.au/stef_website/aboutstef.htm
http://www.sydneyunirugby.com.au/player-profiles/heslop

May as well add some links from other countries before I go to bed:

Japan
http://www.jpn-gym.or.jp/english/gymnast/profile_2007wch_JPN_w.pdf
http://www.densomotorsports.jp/en/wec/drivers/index3.html
http://snsdforever993.blogspot.jp/p/girls-generation-member-profile.html [needs to be seen to be believed]
http://www.sanfrecce.co.jp/en/player/top/tadanari_lee.html

Czech Republic
http://www.jarek-janis.cz/EN/biography.html
http://www.patrikhajek.cz/en/bio/profile
http://www.sparta.cz/srv/www/en/football/team/viewMemberDetail.do?memberId=1202
http://www.tj-lokomotiva-cheb.cz/stit36/images/SoupiskyUKR.pdf

Greece
http://www.target-sport.gr/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1962&Itemid=122&lang=en
http://www.asportman.gr/api/index.php/players_en/attack_en/3184.html
http://www.sport-manager.gr/dnatsouras.html
http://www.arisbc.gr/en/Aleksandar-Vezenkov
http://www.icehockey.gr/en/index.php/4-polykarpos-amanatidis/ [ice hockey in Greece!]
http://www.target-sport.gr/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1560&Itemid=77&lang=en


France
http://webetab.ac-bordeaux.fr/Etablissement/JMonnet/anglais/c1s6_98/doc1.htm
http://www.assotcho.fr/sport/index-en.html [actually former French Africa]


UK:
http://tyco-suzuki.co.uk/riders/stephen-sword
http://www.mogulmanagement.co.uk/
http://kristianthomas.co.uk/about-me/
http://playersheight.blogspot.co.uk/

Canada
http://gbjrminers.goalline.ca/player_profile.php?player_id=724117&team_id=50675&league_id=4435
http://ppanthers.bc.ca/player_profile.php?player_id=1207259&team_id=318417&league_id=23083
http://ramblers.goalline.ca/player_profile.php?player_id=1355452&team_id=116502&league_id=9461
http://www.teamwhistler.ca/blogs/bio
http://ivylovesmusic.blogspot.ca/2010/07/bio-super-junior-member-profile.html (Japanese / Canadian???)
http://www.saanichbraves.ca/roster321/player-roster.html
olympic.ca/backgrounder/2012-2013-canadian-national-bobsleigh-team
http://www.deltaislanders.ca/roster.cfm (year of birth only)

Germany
http://www.schalke04.de/en/team/tea...raxler/page/143-218-15--.html?h=spieler/12719
http://www.thw-provinzial.de/thw/se_tmuel.htm
http://www.vfb.de/en/teams/vfb/team-2012-2013-liste/page/1576-0-1-1361701919.html?9493

Russia
http://www.elitecrew.ru/eng/crew4.php [air-line crew, that is]
http://en.rfs.ru/national_team/woman/women_national_team/contains/13662.html
http://en.fc-zenit.ru/main/team/players/11644.html
http://kazan2013.ru/hide/en/-240/Root/CountryInfo/MAS [Actually Maylaysia]


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## TheOneOnTheLeft (Jul 10, 2013)

Stefan said:


> That's gotta be a joke. When I saw the pic, I actually said "sexy boy" and then I looked at the text and immediately read "Hooker".



He's wearing a rugby uniform. Hooker is a position in rugby, as is (scrum- or fly-) half. All the other information is rugby related too.


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## Lucas Garron (Jul 11, 2013)

Stefan said:


> Well, in the 2008-2012 regulations, it was clear that birth dates could be made public, as they were explicitly excluded from the confidential data. And I never heard someone complain about it. Plus I'd be surprised if we "violated anybody's expectations" with what we actually did/do (highlight people for their achievements, and very few).



Yes, there wasn't much to complain about, because birthdates were public on all profiles for only a limited time. The Regulations never stated clearly what *could* be done with them, and I had a hard time getting any good answer. The WCA website also fluctuated between essentially treating them as private to making all of them public for a short period of time. The export never had birthdates, though, so there was 

As mentioned in my previous post, the only thing I ever heard was that birthdate collection start to tell competitors with the same name apart, but I don't even remember when I heard this, and from whom. There *was* no straight story, so the 2013 Regulations included this provision to set the story straight, at least unless the community consciously decides otherwise.

Here's an email I sent on June 10, 2010, with the current Board (Ron and Tyson) CCed:



> Yeah, this keeps coming up. I don't know how it is elsewhere, but in America birthdates are by courtesy assumed to be private for official and/or personal use. I know girls/women who wouldn't be comfortable to give it out, even for a reason like competing.
> 
> And in our case, we would make anyone's birthdate really easy to find with a simple online search.
> 
> ...



The links mentioned by Jim Mertens that I was referring to:


> Most USA sports organizations actually do not allow date-of-birth to be published, although they sometimes allow age or age group (in years only) to be published. If they do publish data containing birthdates, they then usually expressly prohibit associating those birthdates with names.
> 
> Here is an example policy from USA Swimming which only allows age in years to be published:
> http://www.usaswimming.org/_Rainbow/Documents/e426a6d7-d937-49db-a878-13b30c3891ff/Section%2013%20Privacy%20Policy.pdf
> ...


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## christmasx2 (Aug 25, 2013)

Don't know if someone has said this yet or if they have said it this way, but why not measure by birth year. Anyone born in 1968 is the same age throught the year 2013--45. I would love to see competitions have some recognition for age, unofficially at least. We could have prizes for people born in age group sub-categories, like road races.


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## cubernya (Aug 25, 2013)

christmasx2 said:


> Don't know if someone has said this yet or if they have said it this way, but why not measure by birth year. *Anyone born in 1968 is the same age throught the year 2013--45*. I would love to see competitions have some recognition for age, unofficially at least. We could have prizes for people born in age group sub-categories, like road races.



What if I was born December 31, 1968 and somebody else was born January 1, 1968? Then we're nearly an entire year apart


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## christmasx2 (Aug 25, 2013)

theZcuber said:


> What if I was born December 31, 1968 and somebody else was born January 1, 1968? Then we're nearly an entire year apart


That fact does not bother me. With a cut off that is what you get. Many sports do it the same way. For example, with youth hockey in the US, kids compete by birth year. I submit the the difference is less important with cubing than it is with physical activity, where extreme difference is physical development can mean injury.

I would love to see age divisions in competitions.


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## rjohnson_8ball (Aug 1, 2014)

I am nearly 60 years old. I enjoyed telling my friends that I was the 2nd (or 3rd or 4th) oldest blindfold solver in the World Cubing Association. I had the link in my Facebook posts and my "about" section. The only reason I attended competitions was to see my name on the Statistics page and show it off to my friends. I also enjoyed showing people that 90 year olds and 3 year olds can solve a Rubik's Cube. Now I tell them that old blindfold solvers are rare, but I have no way to prove my point.

I have not gone to competitions since the age statistics disappeared. If the statistics for "Oldest Blindfold Solvers" come back, I will very likely attend competitions again.


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## Dene (Aug 1, 2014)

IRNjuggle28 said:


> as long as only the birth year is made public, not the birth date.



I can't be bothered to read this thread again, but I'm sure this was already addressed. The issue is that you can tell someone's birth date by when the year switches over.


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## IRNjuggle28 (Aug 1, 2014)

rjohnson_8ball said:


> I am nearly 60 years old. I enjoyed telling my friends that I was the 2nd (or 3rd or 4th) oldest blindfold solver in the World Cubing Association. I had the link in my Facebook posts and my "about" section. The only reason I attended competitions was to see my name on the Statistics page and show it off to my friends. I also enjoyed showing people that 90 year olds and 3 year olds can solve a Rubik's Cube. Now I tell them that old blindfold solvers are rare, but I have no way to prove my point.
> 
> I have not gone to competitions since the age statistics disappeared. If the statistics for "Oldest Blindfold Solvers" come back, I will very likely attend competitions again.


I posted once and it got deleted, so let's try this again.

If the statistics are to be brought back, I think it should be for reasons other than giving cubers of a certain age recognition. Among other reasons, I think your point that "90 year olds and 3 year olds can solve cubes" is a good reason to bring the statistics back. It gives good press to cubing, thus helping and expanding the community. I don't agree with your other reason, however. I find it off putting that you won't even go to competitions unless you get recognition for doing so, and it's not ample cause for the WCA to change one of it policies.


Dene said:


> The issue is that you can tell someone's birth date by when the year switches over.


It would take real work to find birth dates using that. There are many easier targets for anybody looking to use birth date information for something malicious. Yes, it could in theory cause a problem, but I think the odds of it are pretty low. Pragmatically, the drawbacks to making that information public likely don't outweigh the benefits of having data on ages. In any case, there could be privacy options that allow people the choice to not disclose their age at all, so I don't think privacy needs to be a reason for this not to happen. As long as everybody has the option to keep their information secret, I don't see a problem.


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## Dene (Aug 1, 2014)

IRNjuggle28 said:


> It would take real work to find birth dates using that. There are many easier targets for anybody looking to use birth date information for something malicious. Yes, it could in theory cause a problem, but I think the odds of it are pretty low. Pragmatically, the drawbacks to making that information public likely don't outweigh the benefits of having data on ages. In any case, there could be privacy options that allow people the choice to not disclose their age at all, so I don't think privacy needs to be a reason for this not to happen. As long as everybody has the option to keep their information secret, I don't see a problem.



As things are now, no one has the option, nor does anyone give consent for their age-related data to be publicly released, which it technically is in your earlier scenario. This potentially creates legal problems for the WCA. 

I would be all for it if people were able to have accounts on the WCA website, with the choice to _opt-in_ to having their age released.


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## RicardoRix (Aug 1, 2014)

IRNjuggle28 said:


> I find it off putting that you won't even go to competitions unless you get recognition for doing so, and it's not ample cause for the WCA to change one of it policies.



Surely everyone goes to competition to get recognition, otherwise what's the point of going? You can always cube on your own or with a group of friends.


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## TimMc (Aug 1, 2014)

Dene said:


> I would be all for it if people were able to have accounts on the WCA website, with the choice to _opt-in_ to having their age released.



Sounds good.


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## timeless (Aug 1, 2014)

Dene said:


> I can't be bothered to read this thread again, but I'm sure this was already addressed. The issue is that you can tell someone's birth date by when the year switches over.



maybe make the updating of the age weekly or monthly, so people wont know the exact date?


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## IRNjuggle28 (Aug 1, 2014)

RicardoRix said:


> Surely everyone goes to competition to get recognition, otherwise what's the point of going? You can always cube on your own or with a group of friends.



I don't think most people do it for recognition. I think most people do it because they enjoy cubing competitively, and enjoy the social enviornment competitions give. But regardless, I wouldn't have a problem with him wanting recognition if it wasn't the only thing he wanted. "I quit going to competitions as soon as the statistic that made me feel special stopped being public" doesn't sit well.



> maybe make the updating of the age weekly or monthly, so people wont know the exact date?


Great idea. 


> I would be all for it if people were able to have accounts on the WCA website, with the choice to opt-in to having their age released.


Yeah, that sounds like it would work well. :tu


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## RicardoRix (Aug 1, 2014)

IRNjuggle28 said:


> I don't think most people do it for recognition. I think most people do it because they enjoy cubing competitively, and enjoy the social enviornment competitions give. But regardless, I wouldn't have a problem with him wanting recognition if it wasn't the only thing he wanted. "I quit going to competitions as soon as the statistic that made me feel special stopped being public" doesn't sit well.


I think it's up to the individual why they do or don't want to go to a competition, if he wants recognition for his (old) age then why is that so bad? 
If nobody wants recognition then the WCA stats pages wouldn't even exist.



IRNjuggle28 said:


> Great idea.



That's not how things work under the hood, specific dates are stored in a Database. Things don't get updated weekly or monthly, they just exist. Probably best to store everyone's DOB as the 1st of the Month (no that doesn't work), or a random number of days away from their actual birthday, but not 0 days of course.


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## IRNjuggle28 (Aug 2, 2014)

RicardoRix said:


> I think it's up to the individual why they do or don't want to go to a competition, if he wants recognition for his (old) age then why is that so bad?
> If nobody wants recognition then the WCA stats pages wouldn't even exist.



I probably shouldn't explain my view any more than I already have. Wouldn't want to get another infraction. In short, it struck me as selfish.


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## Dene (Aug 2, 2014)

You got an infraction for that? Gee wizz that's tough. Having a strong opinion around here just isn't allowed anymore...


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## rjohnson_8ball (Aug 3, 2014)

IRNjuggle28 said:


> I probably shouldn't explain my view any more than I already have. Wouldn't want to get another infraction. In short, it struck me as selfish.



You misinterpreted me. I did not "quit" competitions because age statistics were removed. I merely lost my motivation for going. I am not a fast cuber, so I need to justify to myself why I should travel and spend time at a competition.


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## IRNjuggle28 (Aug 3, 2014)

rjohnson_8ball said:


> You misinterpreted me. I did not "quit" competitions because age statistics were removed. I merely lost my motivation for going. I am not a fast cuber, so I need to justify to myself why I should travel and spend time at a competition.



Competitions being enjoyable isn't justification enough? I don't understand how you can't justify going to one that way. You don't need any big, meaningful justification. "I want to do it because it's fun" should be plenty. I also don't see how being one of the oldest people ever to blindsolve is justification. How come that would be "meaningful" enough to convince you to go? 

Like you, I'm not a fast solver. And like you (now that age stats are removed) I do not get one iota of recognition or praise for going to competitions. I don't even have my WCA ID listed on my speedsolving forum account. But I don't need to in order to justify going to competitions. I do it because I enjoy it. Period.


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## Frubix (Aug 4, 2014)

I agree, it was really nice to watch those statistics, I would love it if they came back


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## okayama (Dec 3, 2014)

I still desire the revival of age stats.
Any chance in 2015?

I don't intend the date of birth being public, but just age.
That is, not full-information of age (like 32.67 years old), but just simple age (like 32 years old).
Furthermore, not all competitors' age, but only the top of the competitors.
I'd like to emphasize again that I have never heard complaint from the competitors
in the age stats, but just heard that they are proud of it.


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## tseitsei (Dec 3, 2014)

okayama said:


> I still desire the revival of age stats.
> Any chance in 2015?
> 
> I don't intend the date of birth being public, but just age.
> ...



I'm not an expert but I think it's more of a legal issues that come with showing peoples age. We would need everyones explicit permission to do that
And only showing a year will still reveal the exact date. You just need to see when the age changes...


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## TylerBrodzinski (Dec 3, 2014)

But does age necessarily affect speed? I don't like age stats as I feel it would discourage younger competitors when they see themselves on top of their age group.


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## MatsBergsten (Dec 3, 2014)

I surely would like to get the age statistics back. Being 64 and with the slowest TPS in Sweden at least.
I do think TPS is age related. If not the exact statistics, then at least the diagrams with dots for each "age-record"
for (almost) all events. I enjoyed them much.

But I go to competitions anyhow (it is real fun). As to displaying birth date just display [comp-year - birth-year] even
if the exact date is stored in the database. Then everyones age ticks up one year 1 January and at no other time.

I also of course support anyones wish to *not* have their age displayed. I also support the thing
about not showing age under say 10 years (discussed it with Ron this August in Roskilde).


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## Randomno (Dec 3, 2014)

tseitsei said:


> I'm not an expert but I think it's more of a legal issues that come with showing peoples age. We would need everyones explicit permission to do that
> And only showing a year will still reveal the exact date. You just need to see when the age changes...





okayama said:


> Therefore, I'd like to suggest an additional rule for Age vs. Speed
> or such a stat. Like this:
> 
> 2d+++) ADDITION
> ...



2char


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## tseitsei (Dec 3, 2014)

@Randomno
What if someone doesn't want to show their age on WCA page?
Then they can't compete if that is added?

Not cool IMO


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## EvilGnome6 (Dec 3, 2014)

I'm in my 40s and would definitely be interested in seeing rankings based on age group. I would even support having age brackets for competitions like many other sports have.


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## Randomno (Dec 3, 2014)

tseitsei said:


> @Randomno
> What if someone doesn't want to show their age on WCA page?
> Then they can't compete if that is added?
> 
> Not cool IMO



I read it as the WCA not being able to use a competitor's age without the competitor's permission.


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## tseitsei (Dec 3, 2014)

> 2d+++) ADDITION
> Competitors *must agree that WCA may use their date of birth*
> for maintaining statistics.



That clearly says that competitors MUST (they don't have a choice) give WCA a permission to use their date of birth...


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## Randomno (Dec 3, 2014)

tseitsei said:


> That clearly says that competitors MUST (they don't have a choice) give WCA a permission to use their date of birth...



Which can also be interpreted as the way I stated. I can't rephrase my take on it much more clearly.


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## tseitsei (Dec 3, 2014)

Randomno said:


> Which can also be interpreted as the way I stated. I can't rephrase my take on it much more clearly.



No. If it meant what you interpret it to mean it should be something like:

"Competitors must agree that WCA may use their date of birth, if they wish to have their age shown in the WCA statistics."
or
"WCA may not use any competitors date of birth without their explicit permission." (which is true even without the added rule because the law already states that...)


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## Randomno (Dec 3, 2014)

tseitsei said:


> No. If it meant what you interpret it to mean it should be something like:
> 
> "Competitors must agree that WCA may use their date of birth, if they wish to have their age shown in the WCA statistics."
> or
> "WCA may not use any competitors date of birth without their explicit permission." (which is true even without the added rule because the law already states that...)



Both of those are pretty much what I read it as.


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## Rune (Dec 3, 2014)

I wrote on this topic some years ago in another thread.
With bitter sarcasm but some fool took it for granted.
(The new rules made me stop competing)


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## newtonbase (Dec 3, 2014)

Age stats do seem popular amongst older cubers. It would give some of us a chance to be competitive. 

I like the idea of only using the birth year for security. A bit like racehorses.


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## sneaklyfox (Dec 3, 2014)

Age should change on January 1.


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## PhillipEspinoza (Dec 3, 2014)

Aside from the physical aspect of slowing down, I feel that age does play a role in your involvement in cubing. This can be seen as the dramatic dropoff of fast (sub-10) cubers over the age of 25. This is obviously due to life factors such as getting a full-time job, having responsibilities, raising children, that younger competitors don't really have to deal with.

Our sport (I don't care what people say, I'll call speedcubing a sport) is really one of the only ones where you can have world-class competitors at the ages of 12-16, and that trend is getting more popular as speedcubing evolves. It almost feels as if speedcubing has become the new cupstacking for when cupstackers outgrow cupstacking. We have world record holders as young as 12, which is awesome really. 

I would be interested to see stats like who is the oldest official sub-10 cuber, or even sub-9, and see how dramatic the age drop is when you see who the oldest sub-15 or sub-20 cuber is. For example, if I get a sub-9 avg this weekend at a competition, I think I would be the oldest fastest cuber (sub-9, 26.17 years old). It'd just be interesting to see and know I feel. Who cares if it even gets recognized officially. It would be cool to say I'm the fastest cuber in my age group (25-39), or someone holds the master record. Other sports have "Age-Groupers" and as speedcubing evolves, I think it might make sense to have a Pro category as distinct from age group competitors. Imagine having a Pro Card for cubing lol.

EDIT: It would also be interesting to see how age trends have developed over the years since 2003.


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## Lucas Garron (Dec 19, 2014)

I think it's sensible to reintroduce statistics for competitors who have opted in, but at this point it would mostly require action from the WCA website team (in particular, creating user accounts).
I'll send another email to check on that.


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## Pedro (Dec 19, 2014)

Can't we ask people to make that option during registration? (or at the comp)


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## PixelWizard (Dec 19, 2014)

1. I'd really like such a statistic!

2. I don't think that the date of birth is sensitive information. Why should it be?

3. If it's an option the statistic isn't representative anymore. It would destroy the sense of it. The statistic would only be nice if you could say: "Oh look I'm in the top 100 of people of my age!".


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## tseitsei (Dec 19, 2014)

PixelWizard said:


> 2. I don't think that the date of birth is sensitive information. Why should it be?



It doesn't matter what you think because legally they (wca) can't give that info without peoples consent


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## Myachii (Dec 19, 2014)

Although these statistics would be a great addition and interesting to see, I fear that they would discourage cubers if they saw people younger than them doing so much better than them.

However, I still voted yes because I would love to see how the little practice I have done this year has hurt me xD


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## Raviorez (Dec 19, 2014)

No, definitly not


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## EvilGnome6 (Dec 19, 2014)

Myachii said:


> Although these statistics would be a great addition and interesting to see, I fear that they would discourage cubers if they saw people younger than them doing so much better than them.



I think it would encourage older cubers if they saw that other people their age were into this rather than seeing only young people on the leader boards.


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## PixelWizard (Dec 19, 2014)

tseitsei said:


> It doesn't matter what you think because legally they (wca) can't give that info without peoples consent



Hmm.. checked the regulations, guess thats your point  Sry ...


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## Dene (Dec 19, 2014)

PixelWizard said:


> Hmm.. checked the regulations, guess thats your point  Sry ...



It's not about the regulations. They can be changed at the whim of the WRC. It's actually about the law in the many countries we have competitions in.


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## rjcaste (Dec 19, 2014)

I think it would bring really interesting stats but making it just an option to tell your age would completely ruin it and would screw up the statistics.


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## PixelWizard (Dec 19, 2014)

Dene said:


> It's not about the regulations. They can be changed at the whim of the WRC. It's actually about the law in the many countries we have competitions in.



Sounds interesting, what are you talking about in detail?


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## Crazycubemom (Dec 19, 2014)

YESSSSSSS! it would be great to have age stats  why should you keep your age, I am happy as a 50+ female cuber on this Earth hahahahahaha


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## Antonie faz fan (Dec 19, 2014)

It would be awsome if had this for every event ( a while back when wca had this it was just for 3x3 :/)


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## Dene (Dec 20, 2014)

PixelWizard said:


> Sounds interesting, what are you talking about in detail?



For a start, the WCA isn't an organisation with legal representation, nor the resources to scour the lawbooks of every country we participate in to find out about the rules regarding the privacy of minors (or even possibly adults). We simply don't know, however it is reasonable to assume that in many countries it would be illegal to reveal the age of minors (at least without explicit consent from a legal guardian). Also, the age at which someone is a "minor" varies in different countries. There are so many issues...

Basically, it might be possible to manage it, but it is well outside the scope of what the WCA is capable of doing. The last thing we need is a massive legal case against us just for having age statistics.


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## Yoheicube (Dec 30, 2014)

okayama said:


> I don't intend the date of birth being public, but just age.
> That is, not full-information of age (like 32.67 years old), but just simple age (like 32 years old).
> Furthermore, not all competitors' age, but only the top of the competitors.



Me too.
i think it doesn't need detail. but i want to simple age.

if there are age data, some competitor get motivation.

some young competitor makes under xx age class No.1 a goal.
some old competitor makes over xx age class No.1 a goal.

conversely there are simple age, Nothing comes amiss to all competitor.


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## irontwig (Dec 30, 2014)

Yoheicube said:


> conversely there are simple age, Nothing comes amiss to all competitor.



どういう意味？


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## Yoheicube (Dec 30, 2014)

irontwig said:


> どういう意味？



sorry, but English. 
I think if there are simple age, No one gets damage.


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## irontwig (Dec 30, 2014)

Ok, as long as it's not mandatory, as some people might not want to disclose their age for whatever reason.


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## Rune (Dec 31, 2014)

Btw, the oldest man having a record on 3x3x3 is said to have been 90 years old at that time. Do you have to be 91 to beat that record?


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## Logiqx (Jul 16, 2015)

Would the WCA consider sharing at least the birth year for competitors in their database?

I've been trying to determine the performances of the over-40's but it only shows a fraction of the older competitors.

I can't see year of birth presenting a threat to personal security - identify theft, etc.


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## Lucas Garron (Jul 16, 2015)

Logiqx said:


> Would the WCA consider sharing at least the birth year for competitors in their database?



It is literally not allowed. Competitors have competed under Regulations that guarantee this privacy. We can't release their birthdates without changing the Regulations to explicitly allow such a retroactive change – and that would be weird, irresponsible, and probably illegal.



Logiqx said:


> I can't see year of birth presenting a threat to personal security - identify theft, etc.



Unfortunately, it *does* present a threat, regardless of whether you can see it.
PII usually has strong privacy restrictions (and name + birthdate are usually a *very* strong way to identify someone). This information is also sometimes used to protect information, e.g. as security question when you are locked out of an account.


However, as discussed elsewhere in this thread, Regulation 2d allows us to make this data available about competitors that opt in to sharing it. Jeremy Fleischman has implemented WCA user accounts, so we're one step closer to providing an option for this.


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## Logiqx (Jul 16, 2015)

Lucas Garron said:


> It is literally not allowed. Competitors have competed under Regulations that guarantee this privacy. We can't release their birthdates without changing the Regulations to explicitly allow such a retroactive change – and that would be irresponsible.



Thanks for clarifying. I had not spotted that in the regulations.



Lucas Garron said:


> PII usually has strong privacy restrictions (and name + birthdate are usually a *very* strong way to identify someone). This information is also sometimes used to protect information, e.g. as security question when you are locked out of an account.



I'm pretty familiar with these topics due to the nature of my day job. I wasn't suggesting the actual birth date... just the year.



Lucas Garron said:


> However, as discussed elsewhere in this thread, Regulation 2d allows us to make this data available if competitors opt in. Jeremy Fleischman has implemented WCA user accounts, so we're one step closer to providing a universal option for this.



That's a fair and responsible way to do it. It may also be worth considering whether the opt-in should provide different options (e.g. just year, year and month or full DOB).

Thanks for your response.


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## okayama (Dec 7, 2015)

I still hope age statistics brought back. (or newly made, starting from 2016)

I've noticed that competitors can create a wca account currently, so the following idea may be an excellent approach.
Is there any way to make it real?



Lucas Garron said:


> I think the simplest solution *if we had accounts on the WCA website* would be to make his a preference that can be selected during registration, with a specific and positively worded "do you allow us to publish your age for X, Y, and Z?" checkbox.


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## Lucas Garron (Dec 7, 2015)

okayama said:


> I still hope age statistics brought back. (or newly made, starting from 2016)
> 
> I've noticed that competitors can create a wca account currently, so the following idea may be an excellent approach.
> Is there any way to make it real?



Indeed, now we can start asking competitors if they're okay with making their age public. Contact Jeremy Fleischman if you're interested.


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## Matt11111 (Dec 7, 2015)

Lucas Garron said:


> Indeed, now we can start asking competitors if they're okay with making their age public. Contact Jeremy Fleischman if you're interested.



Sweet, I've always wanted to know where I rank among 13-year-olds.


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## JustinTimeCuber (Dec 7, 2015)

Matt11111 said:


> Sweet, I've always wanted to know where I rank among 13-year-olds.



IM FAZTER DAN U AN IM TWELV U SUK LOL
(jk of course )

I think this would be an interesting thing to add. I think it makes the most sense to simply skip places for people who don't opt in, so for instance if it were going to be added and I kept reloading the page until it was added and immediately hit opt in before anyone else and then went to the page for rankings of 12 year olds, I wouldn't appear at place number 1, I would appear at place number n (Hopefully n < 500, there can't be that many people my age faster than me)


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## YouCubing (Dec 8, 2015)

JustinTimeCuber said:


> IM FAZTER DAN U AN IM TWELV U SUK LOL
> (jk of course )
> 
> I think this would be an interesting thing to add. I think it makes the most sense to simply skip places for people who don't opt in, so for instance if it were going to be added and I kept reloading the page until it was added and immediately hit opt in before anyone else and then went to the page for rankings of 12 year olds, I wouldn't appear at place number 1, I would appear at place number n (Hopefully n < 500, there can't be that many people my age faster than me)



I'm twelve and I'm solwer than you so I win11!!!1!!
a higher number is better right? xD jk
Yay for bumping old threads  welp this needs to happen, nuff said


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## Dene (Dec 8, 2015)

Lucas Garron said:


> Indeed, now we can start asking competitors if they're okay with making their age public. Contact Jeremy Fleischman if you're interested.



Surely parental consent would be essential for any minor.


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## mark49152 (Dec 8, 2015)

Dene said:


> Surely parental consent would be essential for any minor.


Perhaps the system should not even accept ages under a certain threshold. Are age stats interesting or meaningful for minors anyway? Generally it's at older ages where age starts to affect performance and stats for age brackets become interesting.

Also, I see no reason that actual birth years need be disclosed. The years would be used for including or excluding results in tables for age brackets. Sure it might be possible to analyse results and calculate someone's birth year, but that's different to explicitly listing it in an output.


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## shadowslice e (Dec 8, 2015)

I think that it would just be a bit of fun for the younger/older cubers so I think that age statistics in general should be collected with consent but not that it is compulsory.


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## Laura O (Dec 8, 2015)

Dene said:


> Surely parental consent would be essential for any minor.



Furthermore, these statistics won't be convincing.
I don't know the exact numbers, but only the minority of competitors has a website account and there is no reason for non-active competitors to create one. So a lot of past results and records will be missing.


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## Matt11111 (Dec 8, 2015)

YouCubing said:


> I'm twelve and I'm solwer than you so I win11!!!1!!
> a higher number is better right? xD jk
> Yay for bumping old threads  welp this needs to happen, nuff said



#slowcubing


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## biscuit (Dec 8, 2015)

Laura O said:


> Furthermore, these statistics won't be convincing.
> I don't know the exact numbers, but only the minority of competitors has a website account and there is no reason for non-active competitors to create one. So a lot of past results and records will be missing.



They can include the results of those without accounts, and not display any personal information and only show times/position so that results aren't skewed.


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## Dene (Dec 8, 2015)

biscuit said:


> They can include the results of those without accounts, and not display any personal information and only show times/position so that results aren't skewed.



You could still work out someones birthdate, at least roughly, and possibly exactly.


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## biscuit (Dec 9, 2015)

Dene said:


> You could still work out someones birthdate, at least roughly, and possibly exactly.



Then don't include times. Just say there are x number of people better than this person. Those who opt in have their results shown, but those who don't, don't


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## shadowslice e (Dec 9, 2015)

Dene said:


> You could still work out someones birthdate, at least roughly, and possibly exactly.



Well, in Britain with swimming (specifically the ASA), they have all the results and DOBs shown when you sign up but you can opt out. It doesn't seem to have caused too many problems really.


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## Dene (Dec 9, 2015)

biscuit said:


> Then don't include times. Just say there are x number of people better than this person. Those who opt in have their results shown, but those who don't, don't



I don't understand... the problem is when someone has their birthday and moves into a different category, not the times they have. (at least, this is one of the problems).



shadowslice e said:


> Well, in Britain with swimming (specifically the ASA), they have all the results and DOBs shown when you sign up but you can opt out. It doesn't seem to have caused too many problems really.



Sure maybe they can do it in Britain no problem. But what about a 20y/o in USA, technically a minor? What about people in Pakistan? Have you got any idea what the laws are for minors there? Do you want to be the person to look up the laws in every country we compete in to find out if we can disclose the age of minors, and if so, what procedures are necessary (e.g. parental consent)?


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## EvilGnome6 (Dec 9, 2015)

How about an opt-in "Masters Division" for people over 40? That way you're not worrying about disclosing the age of minors in any country.


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## shadowslice e (Dec 9, 2015)

Dene said:


> Sure maybe they can do it in Britain no problem. But what about a 20y/o in USA, technically a minor? What about people in Pakistan? Have you got any idea what the laws are for minors there? Do you want to be the person to look up the laws in every country we compete in to find out if we can disclose the age of minors, and if so, what procedures are necessary (e.g. parental consent)?



This is why you would need opt in not opt out. If a person want to be part of it, they can look up the laws and contact the delegate. I understand this may be difficult but I feel it is the best way if the WCA were to impliment it.


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## biscuit (Dec 9, 2015)

Dene said:


> I don't understand... the problem is when someone has their birthday and moves into a different category, not the times they have. (at least, this is one of the problems)



Let's pretend we have 5 people in an age group. These people are A, B, C, D and E. A is the fastest, B the second fastest etc. All but C opt in to allow there age and times to be displayed. 

If you were to look at the age group results, you would see something like this. Not that C's result is missing, but still accounted for.
____________________________
1. A single 9.23 average 11.58 |
____________________________|
2. B single 10.35 average 12.17 |

4. D single 18.83 average 20.67 |
____________________________|
5. E single 20.62 average 24.60 |
____________________________|

that still leaves the issue of what constitutes a minor as you said in you post, but if we can, then I see no reason why my way couldn't work.


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## Dene (Dec 10, 2015)

biscuit said:


> Let's pretend we have 5 people in an age group. These people are A, B, C, D and E. A is the fastest, B the second fastest etc. All but C opt in to allow there age and times to be displayed.
> 
> If you were to look at the age group results, you would see something like this. Not that C's result is missing, but still accounted for.
> ____________________________
> ...



Ah hmm I get you now... I think you could still work out someone's age though. You can probably work out who C is easily enough, and then when C leaves this list because they get older, you will know when it's C's birthday.


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## PenguinsDontFly (Dec 10, 2015)

Dene said:


> Ah hmm I get you now... I think you could still work out someone's age though. You can probably work out who C is easily enough, and then when C leaves this list because they get older, you will know when it's C's birthday.



I dont think anyone would check stats everyday just to find out peoples' birthdays...


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## Matt11111 (Dec 10, 2015)

PenguinsDontFly said:


> I dont think anyone would check stats everyday just to find out peoples' birthdays...



Fair point, kind of a waste of time if you ask me.


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## Dene (Dec 11, 2015)

PenguinsDontFly said:


> I dont think anyone would check stats everyday just to find out peoples' birthdays...



I would think anyone with a basic understanding of programming would be able to set up a script to take this info and data mine large amounts of birthdates. I'm pretty sure the law would be against you in this case.


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