# The Speedsolving.com community trains 5 year old prodigy [emoji3]



## wallstreet777 (Nov 25, 2016)

A couple of weeks back my son started learning how to solve the Rubik's Cube. Now that he can solve it, he takes it with him everywhere!

Here's a quick video of one of his solves 





I never really spent time using a Rubik's Cube so this is all pretty new to me. I'd appreciate any advice on what I should have him practicing because I know he wants to get much faster. 

Thanks everyone - I've learned a lot from this forum recently. 




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## Coolster01 (Nov 25, 2016)

Wow this is awesome! I'd say just keep have him practicing normal solves.

This may be helpful:


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## obelisk477 (Nov 25, 2016)

Hello,

To start, I would get him a smaller cube. This will help him learn finger tricks more easily at an earlier age, because they are kind of impractical to learn until his hands get to the size that he could properly execute them. The quicker he can stop the wrist turning, the better. Here is a decent miniature cube:

https://thecubicle.us/mini-dayan-zhanchi-42mm-p-130.html

As for what he should learn, it really depends on his capacity to learn it. If he doesn't know notation, (R, R', B2, etc), definitely start with that. After that, it's really just a matter of him practicing his beginners method until he gets it to about a minute, even 45 seconds.


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## DGCubes (Nov 25, 2016)

obelisk477 said:


> Hello,
> 
> To start, I would get him a smaller cube. This will help him learn finger tricks more easily at an earlier age, because they are kind of impractical to learn until his hands get to the size that he could properly execute them. The quicker he can stop the wrist turning, the better. Here is a decent miniature cube:
> 
> ...



I agree with all of this, but I think the 42mm cube is way too small. The 50mm ZhanChi is probably the way to go, in my opinion.


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## asacuber (Nov 25, 2016)

Nice 

First of all learn fingertricks(as rami said)
And as DG said get him a cube that fits his hands.

Right now there is no need to learn anything new(other than fingertricks as I said) he can stick with this method and drop his times to about 1 minute(maybe faster?)


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## pglewis (Nov 25, 2016)

This. Is. Awesome. 

My own $.02: I'd have him start learning to solve F2L pairs rather than layer by layer. Yeah, you can solve using LBL in 20 seconds but I don't think that means you should or that you should wait until you are sub XX. The only advantage I can think of for LBL is it's easier to learn intuitively and thus get you to the "being able to solve" stage faster. I think the moment you can solve comfortably with layer by layer it's time to move forward. 

2-look PLL would save him a lot of moves over the beginner method without a lot of memorizing. 

Finger tricks... it's fundamental and it doesn't hurt to start developing those as soon as possible but, at his age especially, I think it will develop quickly on its own through practice. I can't say not to practice it but I'd consider it less important at this stage than some others do. 

Serious kudos to you for embracing his hobby!


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## Chree (Nov 25, 2016)

Pretty nice solve 

If you do want to get a cube that'll fit better in his hands, even a 55mm or 54.6 mm design will be just fine. The Zhanchi, even though I use and love the 50mm for OH, is a bit outdated. A 54.6 mm Weilong, or something newer, would be a more reliable cube.

But something worth noticing... he's already using one of the best cubes on the market AND says that he likes it. And liking the cube you have is really what it's all about. I've seen plenty of kids his age work with full size cubes, and it didn't look like this was giving Jayden(sp?) any real trouble. He'll only get better and better at using a full size cube.

Definitely gotta echo the fingertrick suggestions. The video Rami posted is legit the best video for a beginner to learn from. Starts with the very basics and works its way up.

It won't be long after that that Jayden(sp?) could start learning new techniques, like Intuitive F2L or a whole new LL system. It will also eventually be important to learn Notation so that he can read algorithms (if he doesn't know that already). But all in due time. I think he's off to a great start, and as long as he stays addicted, he'll know when he's ready to learn more stuff.


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## Loiloiloi (Nov 25, 2016)

As others have stated, just follow a standard improvement guide after he learns CFOP. This is the easiest way to improve since there's a ton of resources available online for this method, and it isn't that hard to learn.


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## wallstreet777 (Nov 25, 2016)

I really appreciate everyone's feedback - I'm starting learn more and more. I honestly didn't realize there were so many different ways to solve a Rubik's Cube. 

Jayden seems to be comfortable with the cube he is using so I'm going to stick with it until he wants a change, I guess. I'm thinking it's better he continue to learn on a regular-sized cube?

I will spend time on the finger tricks video and get him started on them. 

I'm also going to do more research on the method he should learn next. He's pretty comfortable with the beginner method. His solves are just over a minute now. 

Again, thank you to everyone that has taken time to provide feedback, tips and suggestions. I will continue to update on his progress. 

I wish there were clubs or camps of some sort for kids but haven't found anything really. 

I hope everyone had a great Thanksgiving. 


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## Loiloiloi (Nov 25, 2016)

wallstreet777 said:


> I really appreciate everyone's feedback - I'm starting learn more and more. I honestly didn't realize there were so many different ways to solve a Rubik's Cube.
> 
> Jayden seems to be comfortable with the cube he is using so I'm going to stick with it until he wants a change, I guess. I'm thinking it's better he continue to learn on a regular-sized cube?
> 
> ...



I'd say the average age at a competition is 13 or 12. There will definitely be other kids competing who are under 10 if you do go to one.


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## obelisk477 (Nov 25, 2016)

wallstreet777 said:


> I really appreciate everyone's feedback - I'm starting learn more and more. I honestly didn't realize there were so many different ways to solve a Rubik's Cube.
> 
> Jayden seems to be comfortable with the cube he is using so I'm going to stick with it until he wants a change, I guess. I'm thinking it's better he continue to learn on a regular-sized cube?
> 
> ...



Where are you located (roughly)? There are a few state clubs and things, but most of the time people just meet at competitions. In certain areas of the country, there are several competitions per month. Often, many of the kids there are young enough that he could probably get along with them


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## wallstreet777 (Nov 25, 2016)

obelisk477 said:


> Where are you located (roughly)? There are a few state clubs and things, but most of the time people just meet at competitions. In certain areas of the country, there are several competitions per month. Often, many of the kids there are young enough that he could probably get along with them



We are just north of Chicago - I will have to look into this. 


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## biscuit (Nov 25, 2016)

wallstreet777 said:


> We are just north of Chicago - I will have to look into this.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Chicago is (for some reason) a kind of dead area. The closest for you is going to be Minnesota, Ohio, Indianna and (of course the best of the group) Kansas City!

There is a competition in MN on the 10th of December, and I'll be doing one mid February probably here in KC. Don't know about Ohio or Indiana

I'd love I see you and your son at one of my come!


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## obelisk477 (Nov 25, 2016)

wallstreet777 said:


> We are just north of Chicago - I will have to look into this.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Here's the link you want. All official competitions will be posted on this page, and these are the US ones.

https://www.worldcubeassociation.or...ch=&state=present&year=all+years&display=list


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## wallstreet777 (Nov 25, 2016)

biscuit said:


> Chicago is (for some reason) a kind of dead area. The closest for you is going to be Minnesota, Ohio, Indianna and (of course the best of the group) Kansas City!
> 
> There is a competition in MN on the 10th of December, and I'll be doing one mid February probably here in KC. Don't know about Ohio or Indiana
> 
> I'd love I see you and your son at one of my come!



I'm surprised that there's nothing really out here. 

The competitions sound like a blast! I will have to read up on the rules to better understand them. 

Is there a breakdown by age or skill level? Or does everyone compete against each other?

At 5, will he be one of the youngest there? He's averaging around one minute now, does that put him more towards the middle or end of the group?

Thank you for all of the information!


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## DGCubes (Nov 25, 2016)

wallstreet777 said:


> I'm surprised that there's nothing really out here.
> 
> The competitions sound like a blast! I will have to read up on the rules to better understand them.
> 
> ...



Yeah, competitions are sooo much fun! Everyone competes against everyone else; there aren't any age brackets or anything like that, but competitions are really more about beating your own times than beating anyone else's. 95% of people at competitions know they won't win, but they go to improve their times and hang out with friends (and of course make new ones).

5 years old is definitely on the younger end, but there are quite a few young kids at cubing competitions regardless. But really, people make friends with people of all ages. I've made friends through cubing who are multiple years apart from me, both older and younger.

A minute is generally closer to the end of the speed range; average is probably closer to 20 or 30 seconds, but all the people at competitions are really welcoming and I've never seen anyone put down or unwelcomed because of speed. My main piece of advice for you is, if there's a competition announced in your area, absolutely go! Competitions are basically the best days of any cuber's life, and I'm sure your son won't be disappointed.


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## biscuit (Nov 25, 2016)

wallstreet777 said:


> I'm surprised that there's nothing really out here.
> 
> The competitions sound like a blast! I will have to read up on the rules to better understand them.
> 
> ...



You can find the WCA regulations (the rules) on worldcubeassociation.org.

Everyone competes in one group. It will be towards the back of the pack, but the competition part is not all that important, especially at his level. The important part is bonding with others that share a fairly niche hobby.


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## RennuR (Nov 26, 2016)

There is a cubing meet at Dixon every season every year im pretty sure, and Dixon is in Illinois.


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## GenTheThief (Nov 26, 2016)

RennuR said:


> There is a cubing meet at Dixon every season every year im pretty sure, and Dixon is in Illinois.



Yeah, I was at Dixon Fall 2016 and John Brechon (the organizer) said that he's going to try and do another Dixon comp in the spring.
Also, there are a lot of comps in the Michigan Ann Arbor area.


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## wallstreet777 (Nov 26, 2016)

GenTheThief said:


> Yeah, I was at Dixon Fall 2016 and John Brechon (the organizer) said that he's going to try and do another Dixon comp in the spring.
> Also, there are a lot of comps in the Michigan Ann Arbor area.



Thanks! I will look out for Dixon and Michigan competitions. 


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## RennuR (Nov 26, 2016)

There was Dixon Fall and Dixon winter last year correct? I started cubing in June so haha. @GenTheThief 

Also @wallstreet777 Ann Arbor is like amazing for cubing, I believe Michigan has about 7-8 competitions a year. 

Also one more thing, because he is such a young cuber, I agree as well that he should continue with his beginners method, and then venture out from there, I may be biased but F2l or CFOP should probably be his next step.


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## biscuit (Nov 26, 2016)

Doh! How could I forget abou Dixion and Michigan!


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## GenTheThief (Nov 26, 2016)

RennuR said:


> There was Dixon Fall and Dixon winter last year correct? I started cubing in June so haha.


I started cubing late June 2015. Dixon Winter 2016, in February, was my first competition. Dixon Fall 2016 was my fourth. I don't know about the Dixon comps that were in 2015.



RennuR said:


> I may be biased but F2l or CFOP should probably be his next step.


I respectfully disagree.
I think that the methods Roux and ZZ should be looked into, along with CFOP F2L.
I will never stop sharing this thread, as it has so much (generally) unbiased information on the main solving methods.
I think Jayden could benefit a lot from reading the thread, choosing a more advanced method, and practicing that method. If he does, he may want to get a smaller cube as others have noted. Especially if he chooses Roux, he might have trouble finger tricking the M-slice, as the method is heavily reliant on that move.



biscuit said:


> Doh! How could I forget abou Dixion and Michigan!


Dixon happens to be closest to Chicago too lol.


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## wallstreet777 (Nov 26, 2016)

GenTheThief said:


> I started cubing late June 2015. Dixon Winter 2016, in February, was my first competition. Dixon Fall 2016 was my fourth. I don't know about the Dixon comps that were in 2015.
> 
> 
> I respectfully disagree.
> ...



Thanks for sharing. I will go over that thread and look into Roux. We will start working on different methods and see which he's most in to. 


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## mark49152 (Nov 26, 2016)

GenTheThief said:


> I think that the methods Roux and ZZ should be looked into, along with CFOP F2L. ... I think Jayden could benefit a lot from reading the thread, choosing a more advanced method, and practicing that method.


You just gave my my first LOL of the day, thanks . 

If he's anything like typical 5 year olds, he's not going to study large alg sets or complicated techniques in order to knock a few seconds off his times. I agree with getting a smaller cube that's special to him and maybe more fun. Maybe try some other puzzles like pyraminx and skewb and see if he likes those. See where his interest lies, and feed it. If he enjoys puzzle solving he'll get faster naturally and it doesn't have to become hard work.


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## RennuR (Nov 26, 2016)

I am not going to lie, I see many smaller kids LOVING pyraminx, I would definetly try to introduce him to a Pyraminx, and also one more thing @GenTheThief I didn't mean to sound biased in my post, and yes I do definetly think he should go and look into other methods, its just I am guessing the beginenrs method he is using most closely relates to CFOP I guess is what im saying. Also will I see you at Dixon Winter? That will be my first competition. (Wiscube was on a Cross Country meet day, and Dixon Fall fell on my homecoming day LOL)


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## GenTheThief (Nov 26, 2016)

mark49152 said:


> You just gave my my first LOL of the day, thanks .


Your welcome.



mark49152 said:


> If he's anything like typical 5 year olds, he's not going to study large alg sets or complicated techniques in order to knock a few seconds off his times.


I just wanted to expose him to other methods aside from CFOP. ZZ and Roux don't require large alg sets, and blockbuilding isn't that complicated a technique. I suppose EOLine could be considered complicated though.



mark49152 said:


> See where his interest lies, and feed it. If he enjoys puzzle solving he'll get faster naturally and it doesn't have to become hard work.


I see how my post came across that way. Twas' untactful of me.



RennuR said:


> I am not going to lie, I see many smaller kids LOVING pyraminx, I would definetly try to introduce him to a Pyraminx


Oh, yeah! A lot of kids like the smaller events. He might be interested in Pyraminx, Skewb or 2x2. Those do seem to be the most popular, as mark said.



RennuR said:


> @GenTheThief I didn't mean to sound biased in my post, and yes I do definetly think he should go and look into other methods, its just I am guessing the beginenrs method he is using most closely relates to CFOP I guess is what im saying.


I wasn't attacking you or anything. Just saying that, yes the easiest progrresion is cfop, though it may not be the best.



RennuR said:


> Also will I see you at Dixon Winter? That will be my first competition. (Wiscube was on a Cross Country meet day, and Dixon Fall fell on my homecoming day LOL)


You probably will see me there; Dixon comps are the easiest for me to get to.
Wisconsin comps are close too, but I think my parents were busy on Wiscube so I couldn't go.
John said the next Dixon would be in the spring.


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## mark49152 (Nov 26, 2016)

GenTheThief said:


> I just wanted to expose him to other methods aside from CFOP. ZZ and Roux don't require large alg sets, and blockbuilding isn't that complicated a technique. I suppose EOLine could be considered complicated though.


Oh - I thought that was a joke!  He's a 5 year old kid. He's unlikely to go read the methods thread and evaluate whether he prefers Roux, ZZ or CFOP.

What were you reading when you were 5?


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## h2f (Nov 26, 2016)

GenTheThief said:


> I just wanted to expose him to other methods aside from CFOP. ZZ and Roux don't require large alg sets, and blockbuilding isn't that complicated a technique. I suppose EOLine could be considered complicated though.



Oh man. He's just a kid. Dont ruin his childhood.


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## DGCubes (Nov 26, 2016)

h2f said:


> Oh man. He's just a kid. Dont ruin his childhood.



What do you mean, full ZBLL's not THAT bad. 

But yeah, I think he should only read through that method choosing thread if he finds it interesting and fun for him. If it's too intimidating, he can always try to get faster with the method he's currently using for a while. It's very possible to be decently sub-1 minute with the beginners' method; 40 seconds isn't much of a stretch.


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## Rcuber123 (Nov 26, 2016)

U should see Hong like chan he went to his first official comp when he was 4 years old and now has an 8.72 official single and 9.80 official average (he is 7 now)


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## RennuR (Nov 26, 2016)

I feel like were all trying to plan out this kids cubing career as if he is going to be a prodigy, like hes speedsolving.com's kid.

I mean, it is pretty cool hes this interested as a 5 year old, but honestly when I meant next step I meant in a while.


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## wallstreet777 (Nov 26, 2016)

RennuR said:


> I feel like were all trying to plan out this kids cubing career as if he is going to be a prodigy, like hes speedsolving.com's kid.
> 
> I mean, it is pretty cool hes this interested as a 5 year old, but honestly when I meant next step I meant in a while.



He definitely seems to pick things up quicker than I do. Now he's working on cfop (I think that's what it's called - 2 rows at one)? while waiting for mom at grocery store. 

He's starting to understand the importance of doing 2 rows at once.







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## sqAree (Nov 26, 2016)

So maybe he IS indeed a prodigy.


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## obelisk477 (Nov 26, 2016)

wallstreet777 said:


> He definitely seems to pick things up quicker than I do. Now he's working on cfop (I think that's what it's called - 2 rows at one)? while waiting for mom at grocery store.
> 
> He's starting to understand the importance of doing 2 rows at once.
> 
> ...



2 *layers* at once if you want to get the terminology correct, but yes, that's the first part of CFOP. It's called F2L (first two layers). The last steps are OLL (orient last layer), and then PLL (permute last layer).


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## Loiloiloi (Nov 26, 2016)

obelisk477 said:


> 2 *layers* at once if you want to get the terminology correct, but yes, that's the first part of CFOP. It's called F2L (first two layers). The last steps are OLL (orient last layer), and then PLL (permute last layer).


2nd Part* 

Don't forget cross


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## GenTheThief (Nov 26, 2016)

That's why CFOP is called CFOP. It stands for: *C*ross - *F*2L - *O*LL - *P*LL.
Solving the first two layers at once isn't full CFOP, but it is the step that makes it distinct from other methods.
I still suggest checking out the Roux method. If he doesn't like it, it's totally fine.
Does he time his solves? How fast does he usually solve?


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## DGCubes (Nov 26, 2016)

GenTheThief said:


> That's why CFOP is called CFOP. It stands for: *C*ross - *F*2L - *O*LL - *P*LL.
> Solving the first two layers at once isn't full CFOP, but it is the step that makes it distinct from other methods.
> I still suggest checking out the Roux method. If he doesn't like it, it's totally fine.
> Does he time his solves? How fast does he usually solve?



Yesterday, wallstreet777 posted that he averaged just over a minute.

By the way, @wallstreet777, I'd love to see another video of one of his solves now.


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## RennuR (Nov 26, 2016)

Watch out Feliks Zemdegs, Speedsolving.com's 5 year old prodigy is coming for ya.

@wallstreet777 I cant wait to see this kids potential. CFOP at age 5, can he even say the word Fridrich? (Im just joking)


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## wallstreet777 (Nov 26, 2016)

GenTheThief said:


> That's why CFOP is called CFOP. It stands for: *C*ross - *F*2L - *O*LL - *P*LL.
> Solving the first two layers at once isn't full CFOP, but it is the step that makes it distinct from other methods.
> I still suggest checking out the Roux method. If he doesn't like it, it's totally fine.
> Does he time his solves? How fast does he usually solve?



He has started to time his solves on his iPad. He averages a little over a minute using the beginners method. 

I will look further into Roux. Any reason why you prefer that method?


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## wallstreet777 (Nov 26, 2016)

DGCubes said:


> Yesterday, wallstreet777 posted that he averaged just over a minute.
> 
> By the way, @wallstreet777, I'd love to see another video of one of his solves now.



Haha. He's averaging just over a minute using beginners method. He's still working on figuring out F2L - we are working on it together. He's grasping the concept now just needs to get comfortable with doing it. It's a lot to think about when you're first doing it. 

It took him about 2 weeks to master beginners method so I'm thinking about the same to get better with F2L (not master)?

He's got a Rubik's Cube with him everywhere, it's pretty hilarious watching people's reactions when he solves it in public. 




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## wallstreet777 (Nov 26, 2016)

sqAree said:


> So maybe he IS indeed a prodigy.



Hahah! He's actually higher on the IQ scale [emoji3] - which is exactly why I bought him a Rubik's cube in the first place. 

Certain things come easier to him and he wasn't taking "risks" if he'd think he would fail. 

My goal with the Rubik's cube was to aggravate him and it did just that. He was definitely pissed when he couldn't figure it out the first night. 

But we continued to work on it and now he's pretty much obsessed. 

Probably too much info, but wanted mention how we got into it. 


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## sqAree (Nov 26, 2016)

I think the reason everyone loves this thread is because we wish we were into cubing as 5-year olds already.


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## wallstreet777 (Nov 26, 2016)

We seem to struggle the most on the last F2L solve. Here's what we are trying to figure out right now.
















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## biscuit (Nov 26, 2016)

Put green in front and do U L' U2 L U2 L' U L

If that doesn't make sense to either of you, the next thing he should learn is Notation

What it's doing is hiding the corner (You have to have the empty slot for this) putting the edge in a position so that you bring the corner back up and the pair is paired, then inserting it.


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## DGCubes (Nov 26, 2016)

wallstreet777 said:


> We seem to struggle the most on the last F2L solve. Here's what we are trying to figure out right now.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Holding it in the position shown in the first photo, do a U', and then with F' U2 F, it'll make the pair. Then insert it normally. You could also rotate the cube beforehand to make it have R or L moves instead of F moves, because those are generally easier to execute.


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## wallstreet777 (Nov 26, 2016)

You guys make this look too easy [emoji3]


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## DELToS (Nov 26, 2016)

wallstreet777 said:


> He has started to time his solves on his iPad. He averages a little over a minute using the beginners' method.
> 
> I will look further into Roux. Any reason why you prefer that method?
> 
> ...


I feel like Roux may be a bit complex for a 5-year-old, CFOP is generally considered the best method due to the easy transition from Beginners', a number of resources for it, and the overall simplicity of the method. That's what most of the top speedcubers use anyway. I'm not saying you can't get fast with something like Roux or ZZ, it just may be easier for him and better in the long run. That's just my opinion, though, feel free to debate with me


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## RennuR (Nov 26, 2016)

Can we like PLEASE rename this thread. "Speedsolving.com trains the 5 year old prodigy" 

This is just so fun and amazing how a dad and his son are learning to speedcube, and this 5 year old is pretty frikkin amazing at it. 

This kind of shows just how amazing and helpful this community is, coming together for a cause like this. 

Keep up the great work @wallstreet777 's son!


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## wallstreet777 (Nov 26, 2016)

RennuR said:


> Can we like PLEASE rename this thread. "Speedsolving.com trains the 5 year old prodigy"
> 
> This is just so fun and amazing how a dad and his son are learning to speedcube, and this 5 year old is pretty frikkin amazing at it.
> 
> ...



Hahah. Title change - Done [emoji736] 

Seriously, you guys are so beyond helpful I can't thank everyone enough. 

We are having a great time learning together and as a bonus, I can now solve a Rubik's Cube!




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## Matt11111 (Nov 26, 2016)

sqAree said:


> I think the reason everyone loves this thread is because we wish we were into cubing as 5-year olds already.


I can only imagine how fast all of us would be.


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## DGCubes (Nov 26, 2016)

wallstreet777 said:


> Hahah. Title change - Done [emoji736]
> 
> Seriously, you guys are so beyond helpful I can't thank everyone enough.
> 
> ...



That's awesome. I love this thread so much.


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## RennuR (Nov 26, 2016)

I think we ALL wish we could have a rewind button now that we have seen this.


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## Matt11111 (Nov 26, 2016)

5 year old me was in 2nd grade too...


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## pglewis (Nov 27, 2016)

Happy hunting!


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## Matt11111 (Nov 27, 2016)

Only problem with cubing at 5 is my parents hate me cubing for some reason. They stopped me from taking cubes to school because they think that people will think of me as the Rubik's Cube guy and nothing else. Well, they don't. Plus being known as the Rubik's Cube kid is actually a good thing. It's much better than being that guy who pantsed another guy during a break in humanities class or that guy who thinks prejudice is funny. (Yes, these are both people I know) I've resisted them up to this point, and I've even resisted my school trying to ban cubes because I somehow inspired an army of fifth graders to start cubing and they were making too much noise in the library. Ok, so they didn't... ban cubes per se, but they did restrict the places in which we could cube. I feel like if something like this happened when I was 5, I would prooooooooobably quit.


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## obelisk477 (Nov 27, 2016)

wallstreet777 said:


> We seem to struggle the most on the last F2L solve. Here's what we are trying to figure out right now.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



http://algdb.net/Set/F2L

If you can't figure out an F2L case, here is a page with F2L algorithms for any case you might encounter. For example. you posted F2L case 8, and @biscuit recommended algorithm 4 from that list.


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## newtonbase (Nov 27, 2016)

My son is 2. I'd love him to show an interest in solving. At the moment he'll occasionally mess one up but there's plenty of time.


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## wallstreet777 (Nov 27, 2016)

obelisk477 said:


> http://algdb.net/Set/F2L
> 
> If you can't figure out an F2L case, here is a page with F2L algorithms for any case you might encounter. For example. you posted F2L case 8, and @biscuit recommended algorithm 4 from that list.



This is perfect, thanks!




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## wallstreet777 (Nov 27, 2016)

pglewis said:


> Happy hunting!



This is actually very helpful, thank you


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## Loiloiloi (Nov 27, 2016)

wallstreet777 said:


> He's got a Rubik's Cube with him everywhere, it's pretty hilarious watching people's reactions when he solves it in public.



I can only imagine.


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## pglewis (Nov 27, 2016)

wallstreet777 said:


> It took him about 2 weeks to master beginners method so I'm thinking about the same to get better with F2L (not master)?



A couple weeks of just playing around with pairs should give a fair intuitive feel for how things work. If you watch closely using the layer by layer method, any time you insert a corner you're bringing an adjacent edge along with it, and when you insert an edge it brings an adjacent corner. Solving F2L pairs recycles some of those same insert moves you learned in LBL, just with the extra step of making an oriented pair first. That's what makes it such an easy transition and solving 4 pairs is a lot less work than filling 8 individual spots. 

When you make it to a competition, I do hope you plan to register as well .


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## biscuit (Nov 27, 2016)

wallstreet777 said:


> This is perfect, thanks!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Be careful with this though. For F2L, you really should try to figure it out on your own, or at least understand what and why the alg is doing. In the vast majority of cases, intuitive F2L (figuring it out on your own) is better then algorithmic F2L. Know that you and or your son will get slower when you start doing F2L. This is normal and expected, but will be one of the most operant things in the log run.


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## Dom (Nov 27, 2016)

sqAree said:


> I think the reason everyone loves this thread is because we wish we were into cubing as 5-year olds already.





wallstreet777 said:


> We are having a great time learning together and as a bonus, I can now solve a Rubik's Cube!



The reason I find this thread so awesome is that not only do i wish I could've gotten into Cubing at 5, but I'm thrilled that someone's parent is actually involved in their son's Cubing hobby. Kids will come up to me all the time and show an interest in Cubing. I can only show them so much. When I talk to their father, they don't seem supportive. I show the guy where to go to train himself and his son on how to solve the cube, but they just give up and have absolutely no patience. I'm fed up with guys not supporting their kids who are interested in Cubing.

BRAVO ZULU, @wallstreet777 ! You're a good parent. I wish more parents were as involved with their kids' Cubing hobby. I admire you.

Also, I use this guide to CFOP. http://badmephisto.com Remember, the world record was broken with a CFOP-based method.


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## GenTheThief (Nov 27, 2016)

wallstreet777 said:


> I will look further into Roux. Any reason why you prefer that method?





Spoiler: Semi-irreverent answer that might cause an unnecessary debate



It's more that I don't want him to only know one method.
I actually like the ZZ method more than Roux (and use it), but I think that the Roux method is easier to explain than ZZ, and I try and get people to learn that. The first step of ZZ is fairly complicated, and I don't even try to tell people what it is.

I don't like the CFOP method, or more specifically, people who only learn CFOP. Compared with Roux and ZZ, it has a high algorithm count (78[CFOP], 42[Roux], 46[ZZ]), isn't ergonomic, and has a high move count.

I think other methods should always be checked out, given time, and seen if they suit the solver better.



It sounds like he is figuring out a lot of F2L by himself, yes?
So, right now, he is getting faster by solving the F2L of the cube more efficiently, by pairing up a corner and edge. But I assume that his last layer hasn't changed? That portion of the cube is entirely algorithmic, and is pretty hard to improve on without learning more algorithm sets. It also happens to be a nontrivial percentage of a standard CFOP solve.

The Roux method has less algs and can be solved almost entirely intuitively. With less of the cube being solved by algorithms, you have to figure out more for yourself. This sounds like something he would enjoy.



Spoiler: A video series on Roux



This series is from 2011, so it is kinda outdated, but it still has a lot of relevant information.
Video 1
Video 2
Video 3 - This is pretty unnecessary, but I think he refers to it in other part of the series. It's just solving the corners.
Video 4
Video 5
*IF* he likes Roux, I would suggest he check this out, along with the methods thread.





Spoiler: Response to DELToS's post






DELToS said:


> That's just my opinion, though, feel free to debate with me


Gladly.
Though, not angrily, even if it comes off that way.



DELToS said:


> I feel like Roux may be a bit complex for a 5-year-old


Roux is a fairly simple method, no more complicated than figuring out F2L. F2B is actually easier than F2L since you have more freedom to solve with the M-slice.



DELToS said:


> CFOP is generally considered the best method


What...? No!
CFOP is the most popular, yes. But CFOP is the best, most definitely NO.
I think that "best" can really only be defined by the cuber using the method. And just because almost all cubers use CFOP, that doesn't mean it's the best for that cuber.
I think it is safe to say that a lot [not all] of cubers don't know much about other methods. (Yes, I have asked at comps)
If so, then how can you say something is the best if you only know one method? A method can't be "generally" considered to be anything if _people_ "in general" aren't qualified to say whether or not they like one method over another.

I think if every cuber were brain-wiped and, in an unbiased [A lot of comparisons say EOL is harder than Cross, but never FB or a 2x2x2] presentation, shown CFOP, Roux, and ZZ with their respective advantages and disadvantages, not as many people would choose CFOP.



DELToS said:


> I'm not saying you can't get fast with something like Roux or ZZ


Good. hahaha



DELToS said:


> it just may be easier for him and better in the long run.


Normally, if something is easy now, it gets worse in the long run. That's what the saying is anyway.
I think switching to something like Roux or ZZ would be harder now, as it is a completely new concept, but be better in the long run.


Ima stop arguing now. It feels wrong in such a totally epic thread.
If you really want to pick up another roux vs cfop debate, message me, but not here.


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## sqAree (Nov 27, 2016)

I think the fact that he already started figuring out F2L by himself means he should stick with that method for now. Especially as it seems to make sense to him!


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## Isaac Lai (Nov 27, 2016)

GenTheThief said:


> Spoiler: Semi-irreverent answer that might cause an unnecessary debate
> 
> 
> 
> ...


(I'm not igniting a Roux-CFOP debate. This reply is specific to the context here.)
I feel that it is probably in the child's best interest to stick with CFOP. This is because CFOP is by far the most common method, and there is a pretty straightforward route for improvement. Although Roux is gaining popularity, learning Roux might confuse the child because it requires some form of understanding of rather abstract concepts (at least to a 5 year old). Also, his hands might not be large enough to turn the M slice quickly.

Edit: In addition, I'd like to add that Roux being more intuitive might not be all that beneficial to him. For a child his age, figuring stuff out himself might be more of a hindrance, even if he does not realise it.


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## wallstreet777 (Nov 27, 2016)

Dom said:


> The reason I find this thread so awesome is that not only do i wish I could've gotten into Cubing at 5, but I'm thrilled that someone's parent is actually involved in their son's Cubing hobby. Kids will come up to me all the time and show an interest in Cubing. I can only show them so much. When I talk to their father, they don't seem supportive. I show the guy where to go to train himself and his son on how to solve the cube, but they just give up and have absolutely no patience. I'm fed up with guys not supporting their kids who are interested in Cubing.
> 
> BRAVO ZULU, @wallstreet777 ! You're a good parent. I wish more parents were as involved with their kids' Cubing hobby. I admire you.
> 
> Also, I use this guide to CFOP. http://badmephisto.com Remember, the world record was broken with a CFOP-based method.



Thanks, Dom!

I have 2 boys (5 & 3) who I push to try new things and not always stay in your comfort zone. As a parent, I believe it's my responsibility to help give them the tools necessary to be successful in whatever they are into. That's why I've spent the time learning how to solve something I never thought I would!

Spending time together working on a Rubik's cube has been surprisingly awesome. From what I gather from this forum, the community is a tight, small group of people that are helpful, supportive and truly want people to enjoy it. 

It's amazing that you all of taken interest in my sons "speedcube" success. 

Thank you to each and every one of you!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## xyzzy (Nov 27, 2016)

My two cents: don't just learn CFOP; learn as many different methods as you can. Other than ZZ and Roux, which are also excellent speedsolving methods, there are many other "unorthodox" methods to solving the cube. Most of them won't be as fast as CFOP/ZZ/Roux, but learning them may provide a better understanding of how twisty puzzles in general work (i.e. not just the Rubik's Cube, but also megaminx, pyraminx, skewb, etc.), which I think would be a more fruitful endeavour.

Also, if he does decide to stick with learning only CFOP, being colour neutral is also cool and you should try that.

Personal anecdote: I feel like I spent too much of my early cubing career (2007 to 2010-ish) caring too much about speed, and I burnt out when all of my classmates were way faster than me and I just wasn't improving, then I pretty much quit cubing for a few years. I returned to the hobby last year, stopped trying to compare my speed to others' so much, learnt a bunch of methods, won a local competition (for FMC), and here I am, offering (hopefully useful) advice to a newcomer. Don't burn yourself out by focusing too much on becoming fast. The most important thing is to _have fun_.


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## RennuR (Nov 27, 2016)

xyzzy said:


> My two cents: don't just learn CFOP; learn as many different methods as you can. Other than ZZ and Roux, which are also excellent speedsolving methods, there are many other "unorthodox" methods to solving the cube. Most of them won't be as fast as CFOP/ZZ/Roux, but learning them may provide a better understanding of how twisty puzzles in general work (i.e. not just the Rubik's Cube, but also megaminx, pyraminx, skewb, etc.), which I think would be a more fruitful endeavour.
> 
> Also, if he does decide to stick with learning only CFOP, being colour neutral is also cool and you should try that.
> 
> Personal anecdote: I feel like I spent too much of my early cubing career (2007 to 2010-ish) caring too much about speed, and I burnt out when all of my classmates were way faster than me and I just wasn't improving, then I pretty much quit cubing for a few years. I returned to the hobby last year, stopped trying to compare my speed to others' so much, learnt a bunch of methods, won a local competition (for FMC), and here I am, offering (hopefully useful) advice to a newcomer. Don't burn yourself out by focusing too much on becoming fast. The most important thing is to _have fun_.



Great post xyzzy, and thank you for that input I may take that learning new methods into consideration, one method I thought was really cool was Petrus. A pretty underrated and underused method, and if your talking about learning how the cube works, and understanding how they move around the cube, then Petrus is definetly the best way to go!

However for such a young age, just let him do what he wants, he seems to like CFOP and him learning f2l is a key component in pretty much most speedcubing methods.

~Rennur


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## wir3sandfir3s (Nov 27, 2016)

Anyone know what he averages?
Also, if you really wanna challenge him, have him learn ZZ. It's not that hard, but the EO part takes a bit to get used to.


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## pglewis (Nov 27, 2016)

I'll try to stay out of the method debate except to say that CFOP is not a dead-end and has a very high ceiling as a speedsolving method, as evidenced by the fastest people that use it. At his age he could be a veteran with CFOP by the age of 8 if he keeps the passion and nothing else shinier catches his fancy. There's plenty of time to explore other methods. 

One habit he should work on breaking is cutting out cube rotations to look around. You can tilt the cube forward to look for hidden pieces in the back. I'm not very fast myself and still catch myself doing rotations where I shouldn't. Rotations are quite slow, relatively, and ideally you want to limit them to a few per solve and only in judicious spots... never to find pieces you're looking for. A simple thing that will pay dividends in the long run without leaning anything new.


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## DGCubes (Nov 27, 2016)

This is kind of off-topic, but I've been wondering. @wallstreet777, what does "HTPRI" mean at the end of the video?


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## wallstreet777 (Nov 27, 2016)

DGCubes said:


> This is kind of off-topic, but I've been wondering. @wallstreet777, what does "HTPRI" mean at the end of the video?



Great question and we have no idea. My wife and I asked him but he said he doesn't know [emoji3] 

It's either something him and his school friends have made up or it was just a random thing that popped into his head at the end of the video. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Sion (Nov 27, 2016)

teach him roux for intuition. PLEASE


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## stoic (Nov 27, 2016)

Sion said:


> teach him roux for intuition. PLEASE


Yawn. 
Didn't take long for the cubing hipsters to ruin this thread by turning it into a method debate.


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## CLL Smooth (Nov 27, 2016)

DGCubes said:


> This is kind of off-topic, but I've been wondering. @wallstreet777, what does "HTPRI" mean at the end of the video?


My daughter says "HRTRY". She can't tell me what it means.


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## Sion (Nov 27, 2016)

stoic said:


> Yawn.
> Didn't take long for the cubing hipsters to ruin this thread by turning it into a method debate.



yeesh, just a suggestion .-.


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## wallstreet777 (Nov 27, 2016)

CLL Smooth said:


> My daughter says "HRTRY". She can't tell me what it means.



Haha. That's too funny. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## RennuR (Nov 27, 2016)

"*H*aha *R*oux *T*ry's *R*uining *Y*oungster"

no offense to you @Sion just thought it would be a funny acronym


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## Matt11111 (Nov 28, 2016)

HTPRI: Hey, The Pattern Really Is!

I'unno. I'm not good at acronyms. And I mean some algorithms could just be thought of as a pattern of moves. Is.... Is that acronym grammatically correct?

Oh well, I tried.


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## RennuR (Nov 28, 2016)

Oh gosh @Matt11111 Just got a new spam thread game idea!


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## Matt11111 (Nov 28, 2016)

RennuR said:


> Oh gosh @Matt11111 Just got a new spam thread game idea!


Nah, we already have a thread about acronyms.

But that did cross my mind as I was making that post. And I'm not going to make a thread called "Make an acronym out of the previous poster's gibberish letters."


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## wallstreet777 (Nov 28, 2016)

Not sure if it's the "right" way to teach F2L but we've been following Rido's hunting story. He's got the "eagle" down really well. Today was the first day he completed the 2 layers by himself. Now he can consistently complete, not bad! 

Going to start on alligator and tiger next. 

Hopefully I'm taking him in the right direction. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Tycubing (Nov 28, 2016)

Matt11111 said:


> HTPRI: Hey, The Pattern Really Is!
> 
> I'unno. *I'm not good at acronyms*. And I mean some algorithms could just be thought of as a pattern of moves. Is.... Is that acronym grammatically correct?
> 
> Oh well, I tried.



Then why did you make that thread?


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## wallstreet777 (Nov 28, 2016)

"I need to finish these before I go to bed"







Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## wir3sandfir3s (Nov 28, 2016)

wallstreet777 said:


> "I need to finish these before I go to bed"
> 
> 
> 
> ...


lol that's me all the way. Except my squan because I'm too lazy to learn how to solve it


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## Dom (Nov 28, 2016)

wallstreet777 said:


> That's why I've spent the time learning how to solve something I never thought I would!


That's awesome that you're learning along with him! That badmephisto.com site has some awesome printouts you can take to work or give your son to work on and take notes on.


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## pglewis (Nov 28, 2016)

wallstreet777 said:


> Not sure if it's the "right" way to teach F2L but we've been following Rido's hunting story. He's got the "eagle" down really well. Today was the first day he completed the 2 layers by himself. Now he can consistently complete, not bad!
> 
> Going to start on alligator and tiger next.
> 
> Hopefully I'm taking him in the right direction.



Learning intuitively like that will give a good feel for how things move around. That skill will carry over if he takes an interest in another method and if he continues on with more advanced CFOP it just naturally builds from there. 

A tiny bit of edge orientation can go a long way. Edges are said to be "oriented" if the top color on an edge in the U layer matches or is opposite the color of the front face. So blue edge/blue front or blue edge/green front would be oriented, and blue/orange would not. You can't change an edge's orientation with R/L/U/D moves only, changing the orientation requires either a 90 degree F or B face turn or a 90 degree cube rotation. So, oriented edges can be inserted with easy U/R or U/L moves. An immediate concrete use: if you see the edge for the "eagle" case is not oriented you can do a quick cube rotation (this is one of those judicious ones) and know you're now oriented for a quick insert, just with a glance at the top of the edge and the front color without a lot of thinking. The same will apply for aligning and inserting the other cases. (Other methods like ZZ make smart use of how edge orientation works, it's a fundamental property of the puzzle and not specific to any method)

One other easy useful tip: putting your solved slots in the back means less hunting for your unsolved pairs.


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## RennuR (Nov 28, 2016)

Dang nice profile pic wallstreet777! I love this interest in him! You even got him lots of cubes! Haha. Whats the top middle, and top right cube in that picture? GTS Somewhere?


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## Matt11111 (Nov 28, 2016)

Tycubing said:


> Then why did you make that thread?


(Shrugs)


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## wallstreet777 (Nov 28, 2016)

RennuR said:


> Dang nice profile pic wallstreet777! I love this interest in him! You even got him lots of cubes! Haha. Whats the top middle, and top right cube in that picture? GTS Somewhere?



Yes, I keep buying them, my wife thinks I'm a bit crazy [emoji3]

These are the top middle and top right Cubes 







Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## RennuR (Nov 29, 2016)

wallstreet777 said:


> Yes, I keep buying them, my wife thinks I'm a bit crazy [emoji3]
> 
> These are the top middle and top right Cubes
> 
> ...



Ah gotchya, you know what COULD be cool, instead of buying him lots and lots of Weilong GTS's, you could get him a mini speedcubing mat+timer! Crap its out of stock, its called the GX Edge, or just any speedcubing mat +timer in general could be quite cool!


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## wallstreet777 (Nov 29, 2016)

RennuR said:


> Ah gotchya, you know what COULD be cool, instead of buying him lots and lots of Weilong GTS's, you could get him a mini speedcubing mat+timer! Crap its out of stock, its called the GX Edge, or just any speedcubing mat +timer in general could be quite cool!



Great idea. Was actually looking at those yesterday. It's on my list for sure. Using the iPad now but mat & timer makes more sense. 


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## RennuR (Nov 29, 2016)

One other question, do you lubricate your cubes? If not I DEFINETLY suggest checking out some of thecubicle.us's premium cube lines. They professionaly set up the cube with tensionsing and perfect combinations of Lube, as well as a custom sticker set to perfectly adjust the puzzle, its amazing how good the cubes feel. Because your son has smaller hands, and might not be able to turn the cube as fast right now, as he is still "slow solving", I may reccomend something like a Yuexiao or Tanglong. However if you like the Weilong GTS, you will definetly not be dissapointed by the Cubicle Premium Weilong GTS


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## Loiloiloi (Nov 29, 2016)

It's really easy to just buy Traxxas 50k and Maru Lube and look up a tutorial on YouTube. You could get both for under 10 dollars and lube all your cubes well with them.


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## RennuR (Dec 30, 2016)

Hey @wallstreet777 hows he doing? Havent been updated in a while!


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## Aaron Lau (Dec 31, 2016)

RennuR said:


> One other question, do you lubricate your cubes? If not I DEFINETLY suggest checking out some of thecubicle.us's premium cube lines. They professionaly set up the cube with tensionsing and perfect combinations of Lube, as well as a custom sticker set to perfectly adjust the puzzle, its amazing how good the cubes feel. Because your son has smaller hands, and might not be able to turn the cube as fast right now, as he is still "slow solving", I may reccomend something like a Yuexiao or Tanglong. However if you like the Weilong GTS, you will definetly not be dissapointed by the Cubicle Premium Weilong GTS


Not tryna be negative or anything but i dont think he really needs a cubicle premium cube as he is still just learning.They're quite expensive and as Loiloiloi said, you can do it yourself for a much cheaper price and if he needs a set up cube i dont think having a premium cube will make that much of a difference from a self set up one as he is still a beginner. Also i think he'll have a fun time setting it up himself.


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## RennuR (Jan 1, 2017)

Aaron Lau said:


> Not tryna be negative or anything but i dont think he really needs a cubicle premium cube as he is still just learning.They're quite expensive and as Loiloiloi said, you can do it yourself for a much cheaper price and if he needs a set up cube i dont think having a premium cube will make that much of a difference from a self set up one as he is still a beginner. Also i think he'll have a fun time setting it up himself.



That's a good point!


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