# Magics Removed from WCA Events List in 2013?



## Ranzha (Jul 16, 2012)

Today I was informed that Magic and Master Magic are to be removed from the official WCA events list come January 2013. This seems to be backed up by a Brazilian delegate who posted on the Brazilian forums here: http://www.cubomagicobrasil.com/for...magic-nao-serao-mais-eventos-oficiais-da-wca/

Google translated:



http://www.cubomagicobrasil.com/forum/topic/9220-magic-e-master-magic-nao-serao-mais-eventos-oficiais-da-wca/ said:


> Guys, I have been informed that from January 2013 Magic and Master Magic will not be official events of the WCA. The reasons include the fact that events are complicated to administer, because the times are very low and there is hard to be sure whether the stop the timer procedure was done correctly. Thus, the results end up not being reliable. Another issue is that these two "puzzle" has nothing to do with the other WCA, since no scramble, resolution method, algorithm, shortcuts, look ahead .. .



It seems like a valid reason to remove the magic events to me, but I wasn't sure of the truth of the matter.
Can anyone of higher power please verify?

EDIT:
*Tyson has confirmed magics' removal from the official WCA events system, but competition results for magics in 2013 will be archived.*


----------



## Kirjava (Jul 16, 2012)

so much love <3


----------



## TheAwesomeAlex (Jul 16, 2012)

RIP MAGICS


----------



## Endgame (Jul 16, 2012)

<3 WCA
SO MUCH WIN!

Now replace it with Skewb and 8x8. kthnxbai


----------



## benskoning (Jul 16, 2012)

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.


----------



## MirzaCubing (Jul 16, 2012)

</3


----------



## god of rubic 2 (Jul 16, 2012)

Hmmm... I was bound to happen, magic is pretty useless..


----------



## uberCuber (Jul 16, 2012)

If this is true, it makes me so happy


----------



## mrpotatoman14 (Jul 16, 2012)

meh


----------



## FinnGamer (Jul 16, 2012)

Endgame said:


> Now replace it with Skewb and 8x8. kthnxbai



Skewb and Master Skewb. Or add a cuboid


----------



## jonlin (Jul 16, 2012)

NO I was actually getting pretty good at magic


----------



## antoineccantin (Jul 16, 2012)

WUT?

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO


----------



## Pro94 (Jul 16, 2012)

Endgame said:


> Now replace it with Skewb and 8x8. kthnxbai



lol, 8x8 no please.


----------



## Godmil (Jul 16, 2012)

Interesting. I thought feet or one of the higher BLDs would go first. Oh well, I was never interested in Magic anyway. I feel a little sorry for the people who are big fans of Magic, but hopefully some new events could be added (I'd love to see 3x3x4, but I know it's not popular.)


----------



## kinch2002 (Jul 16, 2012)

Ranzha V. Emodrach said:


> Can anyone of higher power please verify?


It is being discussed amongst delegates/board members. No decision has been made yet, but I'm sure it will be announced clearly when one is made.


----------



## Endgame (Jul 16, 2012)

FinnGamer said:


> Skewb and Master Skewb. Or add a cuboid



IMO it doesn't really matter, we just need it replaced with events which aren't as stupid as those two.


----------



## Meep (Jul 16, 2012)

It was proposed, but nothing definite yet.

Edit: Ninja'd by Daniel


----------



## Kirjava (Jul 16, 2012)

Godmil said:


> I feel a little sorry for the people who are big fans of Magic



They're only fans of magic because magic is a thing.


----------



## antoineccantin (Jul 16, 2012)

Kirjava said:


> They're only fans of magic because magic is a thing.



They're only fans of it because they're fast at it.


----------



## mdolszak (Jul 16, 2012)

Wow, this is ironic. I just got back into magic today, and now it's being removed. :/


----------



## cityzach (Jul 16, 2012)

I really hope they don't get removed...


----------



## ben1996123 (Jul 16, 2012)

lol magics. 8x8 plz.


----------



## Ranzha (Jul 16, 2012)

kinch2002 said:


> It is being discussed amongst delegates/board members. No decision has been made yet, but I'm sure it will be announced clearly when one is made.





Meep said:


> It was proposed, but nothing definite yet.
> 
> Edit: Ninja'd by Daniel



Ah, okay. Thanks for the clarification.

Regarding addition of events: I remember months ago Lucas said that the WRC was going to handle addition/removal of events after current issues are tackled.
Sauce: http://www.speedsolving.com/forum/s...gulations-2012&p=684975&viewfull=1#post684975
What this means in regards to the proposed removal of magics I cannot be sure.


----------



## lordblendi (Jul 16, 2012)

I think it's true, Lars V heard about that too. And if you check the WC2013 on the WCA website, they are not in the events list. http://worldcubeassociation.org/results/c.php?i=WC2013


----------



## leonparfitt (Jul 16, 2012)

i hope they replace it with skewb


----------



## rubixwiz031 (Jul 16, 2012)

This makes me very sad.


----------



## brandbest1 (Jul 16, 2012)

Luckily I've already given up magic for life for square-1.


----------



## Tyson (Jul 16, 2012)

Yes, there will be more clarification. There has been overwhelming support by the WCA delegates and the board to remove Magic and Master Magic from competitions because they aren't puzzles, and are notoriously difficult to regulate. There is really little confidence that any given time in these events was done under fair conditions.

We aim to reduce the number of competitions that hold Magic and Master Magic and will be not holding the event in 2013. Records and times will be archived, but no new times would take place.


----------



## Ranzha (Jul 16, 2012)

Tyson said:


> Yes, there will be more clarification. There has been overwhelming support by the WCA delegates and the board to remove Magic and Master Magic from competitions because they aren't puzzles, and are notoriously difficult to regulate. There is really little confidence that any given time in these events was done under fair conditions.
> 
> We aim to reduce the number of competitions that hold Magic and Master Magic and will be not holding the event in 2013. Records and times will be archived, but no new times would take place.



"No new times would take place." <- Basically, all 2013 magics times will be archived but unofficial?


----------



## Julian (Jul 16, 2012)

Ranzha V. Emodrach said:


> "No new times would take place." <- Basically, all 2013 magics times will be archived but unofficial?





Tyson said:


> will be not holding the event in 2013.



message too short


----------



## Ranzha (Jul 16, 2012)

Julian said:


> message too short



I was referring more so to the archival than the unofficial status.


----------



## cityzach (Jul 16, 2012)

This is so unfair...


----------



## Kian (Jul 16, 2012)

Wow. I did not expect everyone to find out this quickly. 

Tyson already mentioned it, but the support of the delegates on this measure was almost unanimous. We simply can't justify holding an event we have no faith is judged adequately and is not treated as a puzzle. It does not fit in with the spirit of our organization.

We recognize that some people will dislike this measure, but it is in the interest of fairness and running competitions effectively.


----------



## Stefan (Jul 16, 2012)

Where the hell is the surprise challenge?


----------



## Ernie Pulchny (Jul 16, 2012)

Removing Magics is stupid... Why would they remove it when most people in a competition compete in it. If this really happens, I'll be mad...


----------



## mrpotatoman14 (Jul 16, 2012)

Stefan said:


> Where the hell is the surprise challenge?


lol

inb4 drew sopchak


----------



## cityzach (Jul 16, 2012)

Ernie Pulchny said:


> Removing Magics is stupid... Why would they remove it when most people in a competition compete in it. If this really happens, I'll be mad...



It really is happening. Lets cry together buddy :'(


----------



## antoineccantin (Jul 16, 2012)

How about we remove Magic, since their is a lot of problems with judging it & stuff, but I never hear of judging problems with Master Magic, so what's the point of removing that one too? Continuity? Thats not a very good excuse, we have 3BLD, 4BLD, 5BLD, but not 2BLD or 6BLD.


----------



## vcuber13 (Jul 16, 2012)

Ernie Pulchny said:


> Removing Magics is stupid...


No its not



Ernie Pulchny said:


> Why would they remove it when most people in a competition compete in it.


Because it isnt a real puzzle, and most people do it because it isnt.



Ernie Pulchny said:


> If this really happens, I'll be mad...


Frankly, nobody cares


----------



## cityzach (Jul 16, 2012)

antoineccantin said:


> How about we remove Magic, since their is a lot of problems with judging it & stuff, but I never hear of judging problems with Master Magic, so what's the point of removing that one too? Continuity? Thats not a very good excuse, we have 3BLD, 4BLD, 5BLD, but not 2BLD.



I agree. It's easier to judge master magic since it's generally a slower solve I believe. And master magic is a lot funner imo.


----------



## ben1996123 (Jul 16, 2012)

Stefan said:


> Where the hell is the surprise challenge?



SURPRISE CHALLENGE: grab your nearest 4x4 and solve it OH with commutators only.



Ernie Pulchny said:


> Removing Magics is stupid... Why would they remove it when most people in a competition compete in it. If this really happens, I'll be mad...



You're only saying that because you have the master magic WRs, not because lots of people compete in it.


----------



## MovingOnUp (Jul 16, 2012)

Lol so whoever has the record now...has it forever O.O (unless it's broken in the meantime of course)


----------



## antoineccantin (Jul 17, 2012)

cityzach said:


> I agree. It's easier to judge master magic since it's generally a slower solve I believe. And master magic is a lot funner imo.



Its also not generally done in the air, so there is no "landing" to worry about when stopping the timer.


----------



## cityzach (Jul 17, 2012)

antoineccantin said:


> Its also not generally done in the air, so there is no "landing" to worry about.



Unless you are Nakajima, haha.
And why do magics have to be completely removed? Can't they just be held less frequently like feet for example?


----------



## Stefan (Jul 17, 2012)

Only took five and a half years, btw:
http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/speedsolvingrubikscube/message/33002



ben1996123 said:


> nice, what was the time?


I forgot to time it :fp


----------



## Athefre (Jul 17, 2012)

cityzach said:


> I agree. It's easier to judge master magic since it's generally a slower solve I believe. And master magic is a lot funner imo.



This is called the Bargaining stage.


----------



## Owen (Jul 17, 2012)

Magic is a dexterity game.


----------



## Rubiksboy1 (Jul 17, 2012)

I hope this doesn't mean Magics are disappearing. If you have one, keep it!
They'll be worth a lot in 30 years.


----------



## riffz (Jul 17, 2012)

I am overjoyed.


----------



## aronpm (Jul 17, 2012)

i am apathetic


----------



## antoineccantin (Jul 17, 2012)

I still don't understand why Master Magic should be removed.


----------



## Sillas (Jul 17, 2012)

Finally.



Ranzha V. Emodrach said:


> This seems to be backed up by a Brazilian delegate who posted on the Brazilian forums here: http://www.cubomagicobrasil.com/for...magic-nao-serao-mais-eventos-oficiais-da-wca/
> Google translated: *Personally*, I have been informed that from January 2013 Magic and Master Magic will not be official events of the WCA (...) Another issue is that these two "puzzle" has nothing to do with the other WCA, since no *shuffle*, resolution method, algorithm, shortcuts, look ahead...


The correct translation is 'Guys', not 'personally'. Scramble.


----------



## Vincents (Jul 17, 2012)

To answer Brandon, the WRC is involved in this decision.


----------



## TanookiTrev (Jul 17, 2012)

Endgame said:


> <3 WCA
> SO MUCH WIN!
> 
> Now replace it with Skewb and 8x8. kthnxbai



I second that. Make Skewb official !


----------



## ben1996123 (Jul 17, 2012)

antoineccantin said:


> I still don't understand why Master Magic should be removed.



It's not going to not be removed just because you like it.


----------



## Jaycee (Jul 17, 2012)

Aw. This is disappointing. I'll still get them anyway because I've been looking forward to them for a while :3


----------



## MirzaCubing (Jul 17, 2012)

Zach, Ernie, Antoine, we shall create an underground organization of magic-ers =.=


----------



## cityzach (Jul 17, 2012)

MirzaCubing said:


> Zach, Ernie, Antoine, we shall create an underground organization of magic-ers =.=



Haha yeah, or a petition to not remove magics, but I doubt that would work..


----------



## jonlin (Jul 17, 2012)

Me join


----------



## Mikel (Jul 17, 2012)

I almost cried <3 magics


----------



## MirzaCubing (Jul 17, 2012)

cityzach said:


> Haha yeah, or a petition to not remove magics, but I doubt that would work..



Facebook group :3
A petition wouldn't work, the decision is solely up to the board and delegates, and it doesn't look like magics will be staying :'(


----------



## RNewms27 (Jul 17, 2012)

Eh, got bored of it in a month. I hope for a nice replacement. 

IMO, Skewb is just another 2x2-type event.
I've only solved Master Skewb with Skewb+commutators; IMO, uninteresting.
Sq-1 BLD, Team BLD, and 8x8 interest me, although 8x8 is rather lengthy.

I'm sure WCA will make great decisions.


----------



## Bryan (Jul 17, 2012)

Ernie Pulchny said:


> Removing Magics is stupid... Why would they remove it when most people in a competition compete in it. If this really happens, I'll be mad...



If we had an event called "See who can clap their hands five times the quickest", a lot of people would enter.


----------



## mdolszak (Jul 17, 2012)

Haha I'd sign a petition if it were made...I wouldn't mind keeping (Master) Magic.


----------



## antoineccantin (Jul 17, 2012)

MirzaCubing said:


> Zach, Ernie, Antoine, we shall create an underground organization of magic-ers =.=



I don't care about Magic.


----------



## Bob (Jul 17, 2012)

The integrity of the Rubik's Magic and Master Magic results is perhaps the most suspect of all events. I have seen more results from Magic and MM on youtube in which regulations were broken but penalties were not given than any other event. Most people who judge Magic don't know how to do so. From an administrative POV, the events are a nightmare. The only valid way I see to keep Magic and MM as events would be if the puzzles were actually scrambled instead of starting from the standard position. The biggest problem with that, though, is that there are a very limited number of scrambles for each puzzle and very very very few people actually know how to scramble a Magic (and a notation for doing so would probably have to be pretty complicated).

If 8x8 becomes an event, I promise I will never hold it. Ever. I would still like to see feet, 6x6 and 7x7 be removed. I think these events are worse than the Magics.


----------



## cityzach (Jul 17, 2012)

mdolszak said:


> Haha I'd sign a petition if it were made...I wouldn't mind keeping (Master) Magic.



Yeah, magic can go, but master magic should stay since it doesn't have the same judging problems as magic


----------



## qqwref (Jul 17, 2012)

I remember when a 1.06 was a world-class magic time.

Goddamn am I getting old.


----------



## MirzaCubing (Jul 17, 2012)

cityzach said:


> Yeah, magic can go, but master magic should stay since it doesn't have the same judging problems as magic



oh yeah, I don't care about normal magic. It's not like we do good on them anyway 
But master magic should stay. It's more fun and violations are easier to catch.

oh, and Bob, this won't help the decision but I took note of violated regulations at CSP Spring. I had quite a few penalties for the people that I judged


----------



## Bob (Jul 17, 2012)

MirzaCubing said:


> oh yeah, I don't care about normal magic. It's not like we do good on them anyway
> But master magic should stay. It's more fun and violations are easier to catch.
> 
> oh, and Bob, this won't help the decision but I took note of violated regulations at CSP Spring. I had quite a few penalties for the people that I judged



I can personally vouch for the validity of results at competitions on the East Coast, but the world is pretty big. I'm sure there have been many competitions in which Magic times were achieved but not deserved. I also have a lot of experience with competitors saying, "Oh, why was that a DNF? I stopped the timer like that at [insert competition here] and it was fine."

The judges for our competitions are typically just Tim, Kian, Jaclyn, and myself. Each of us have judged probably thousands of solves so we know exactly what we're looking for, but this isn't the case everywhere. The worst is when I hear of competitions in which people just find somebody to judge them in Magic. :/


----------



## Yuxuibbs (Jul 17, 2012)

Right when I order some magics and master magics.... 

What if only people experienced in judging magic can judge magic/master magic?


----------



## amostay2004 (Jul 17, 2012)

The future is bright.


----------



## Ranzha (Jul 17, 2012)

Yuxuibbs said:


> Right when I order some magics and master magics....
> 
> What if only people experienced in judging magic can judge magic/master magic?



How do inexperienced people get experienced?


----------



## Iggy (Jul 17, 2012)

HOW THE HECK CAN THIS HAPPEN I LOVE MAGIC


----------



## Ranzha (Jul 17, 2012)

Iggy said:


> HOW THE HECK CAN THIS HAPPEN I LOVE MAGIC





Tyson said:


> There has been overwhelming support by the WCA delegates and the board to remove Magic and Master Magic from competitions because they aren't puzzles, and are notoriously difficult to regulate. There is really little confidence that any given time in these events was done under fair conditions.


^That's how the heck this can happen, and unfortunately, whether you love magic or not, the decision isn't based on how many people love the event considering results' validity discrepancy.


----------



## drewsopchak (Jul 17, 2012)

SWEEEEEEEEEET! This is great!


----------



## sa11297 (Jul 17, 2012)

So happy right now, I never liked magic or mastermagic. If I wanted to test my dexterity, I would just do pll attacks.


----------



## DYGH.Tjen (Jul 17, 2012)

Foinally!


----------



## Iggy (Jul 17, 2012)

Ranzha V. Emodrach said:


> ^That's how the heck this can happen, and unfortunately, whether you love magic or not, the decision isn't based on how many people love the event considering results' validity discrepancy.



Meh, this'll probably make me improve my 3x3.


----------



## Robert-Y (Jul 17, 2012)

To anyone who cares: Every all rounder needs to improve drastically in every event otherwise Feliks is almost certainly going to become the new leader of the sum of single ranks and average ranks by the end of this year XD. He wont even need to compete


----------



## mdolszak (Jul 17, 2012)

Wait, when they get rid of magic, will magic/master magic still show up on people's WCA profiles? Or will everything relating to magic be removed?


----------



## ben1996123 (Jul 17, 2012)

mdolszak said:


> Wait, when they get rid of magic, will magic/master magic still show up on people's WCA profiles? Or will everything relating to magic be removed?



It will be removed (probably), but the results will still be in the WCA database, just hidden, like the old multiBLD results.


----------



## Iggy (Jul 17, 2012)

Robert-Y said:


> To anyone who cares: Every all rounder needs to improve drastically in every event otherwise Feliks is almost certainly going to become the new leader of the sum of single ranks and average ranks by the end of this year XD. He wont even need to compete



Agree.


----------



## cubeflip (Jul 17, 2012)

Dang it. Gotta get back into the top 100 for mmag avg before it's archived. I used to be ranked 70th but now I'm 101st.
I'm not that disappointed, though. Getting rid of magics will give everybody more time to focus on more important event, during practice and during competitions. Sucks for the WR holders though. USA will be losing half of it's WRs.

EDIT: I actually don't care about getting back into the top 100. I don't like it anymore. I'm done with magics. Echoing what Mitch said, I don't even feel like practicing for Nats or even competing in them (but I paid for them, so might as well). I won master magic four times, I'm satisfied with that.


----------



## mitch1234 (Jul 17, 2012)

Oh nice, I like magics and all but we all saw this one coming from a mile away. I will admit that this is the worst time to post news like this because it is less than 3 weeks from Nats, I don't even want to practice these events for Nats. 
I can see where Tyson is coming from, judging the event is too difficult and many penalties have gone unnoticed. Since most fast magic solvers will solve in about <1.3 seconds if you even blink you could miss some of the solve. Some people have made it clear that only experienced judges should judge magic solves. I know for a fact that in some places people that have never judged before will judge solves for fast magic. I have seen it happen, and it has happened to me. 
Master Magic is no different, it takes 3 times longer but it still has the same basic concept. Solve. Done. 
Magic has nothing to do with Rubik's Cube other than it being a Rubik's product. It has always been an event that has been frowned upon, but other events have been frowned on as well. 
I enjoy the concept of magic, I just think the way that it is being run as an event is being done wrong because a lot of people don't like it.
Its sad to see it go, but I guess I'm stuck with 15 or so magics and nothing to do with them.


----------



## Iggy (Jul 17, 2012)

mitch1234 said:


> Oh nice, I like magics and all but we all saw this one coming from a mile away. I will admit that this is the worst time to post news like this because it is less than 3 weeks from Nats, I don't even want to practice these events for Nats.
> I can see where Tyson is coming from, judging the event is too difficult and many penalties have gone unnoticed. Since most fast magic solvers will solve in about <1.3 seconds if you even blink you could miss some of the solve. Some people have made it clear that only experienced judges should judge magic solves. I know for a fact that in some places people that have never judged before will judge solves for fast magic. I have seen it happen, and it has happened to me.
> Master Magic is no different, it takes 3 times longer but it still has the same basic concept. Solve. Done.
> Magic has nothing to do with Rubik's Cube other than it being a Rubik's product. It has always been an event that has been frowned upon, but other events have been frowned on as well.
> ...



^I totally agree. The magic and master magic events were one of my favourites, but I guess they do have some disadvantages. Looks like I can only participate in 2 more competitions before magic goes.


----------



## tx789 (Jul 17, 2012)

Keep magic but have it at the start of comps as a warm up event since hardly any one cares about it and if you do too bad and maybe switch to timing with a Stackmatpro 

I do really want it removed since I'd like to complete in very official event and I haven't completed in 2 years but if it goes oh well 


Still I have had a broken magic and master magic for a year and a half and didn't care much about It


----------



## Iggy (Jul 17, 2012)

cityzach said:


> Yeah, magic can go, but master magic should stay since it doesn't have the same judging problems as magic



I'm with you guys. Master Magic's much more fun compared to Magic.


----------



## speedcubingman (Jul 17, 2012)

my first comp will be my last magic event. GOTTA MAKE TOP 100 lol. yeah but i just bought a lingao magic. i get why magic is being taken away, but i am praying they keep master magic.

now the WMO is in effect! World Magic Organization.


----------



## Iggy (Jul 17, 2012)

speedcubingman said:


> my first comp will be my last magic event. GOTTA MAKE TOP 100 lol. yeah but i just bought a lingao magic. i get why magic is being taken away, but i am praying they keep master magic.



High five, man!


----------



## RCTACameron (Jul 17, 2012)

Robert-Y said:


> To anyone who cares: Every all rounder needs to improve drastically in every event otherwise Feliks is almost certainly going to become the new leader of the sum of single ranks and average ranks by the end of this year XD. He wont even need to compete



Especially if feet is removed, which is posible. 

So this year will be the last year that Aus Nationals has Magic and Master Magic at it. I now have the goal of winning both of them, because that would make me national champion at both forever.


----------



## samchoochiu (Jul 17, 2012)

is it okay if a democracy takes place here? listening to the voice of the community?
Or are the higher officials going to decide everything?


----------



## Bob (Jul 17, 2012)

Higher officials. The discussion among the board and delegates was pretty much unanimously in favor of removing these events.

I can't really imagine any community discussion or vote overturning this decision.


----------



## Ranzha (Jul 17, 2012)

samchoochiu said:


> is it okay if a democracy takes place here? listening to the voice of the community?
> Or are the higher officials going to decide everything?



Why shouldn't they? People with more experience in the organisation should be the ones to weigh the options and decide what's best.
And this is a decision in the better direction.


----------



## Dene (Jul 17, 2012)

There was democracy taking place... between the delegates and other officials. Please do not act as if the community is being stabbed in the back or something like that, in reality this was a long time coming.


----------



## kinch2002 (Jul 17, 2012)

samchoochiu said:


> is it okay if a democracy takes place here? listening to the voice of the community?
> Or are the higher officials going to decide everything?


The voice of the community has been heard before, and is being heard right now in this thread. As far as I can tell, there are more people agreeing with the removal than not, and that's despite the fact that people against the removal are more likely to post.


----------



## tx789 (Jul 17, 2012)

Magic could be a a good warm up event for a comp by warm up I mean getting in competion mode. SInce harldy any one cares about it if you fail you don't care.


It could always be brought back but I can't see that happening in a long time if ever


I just want to complete in it before it goes of the officall event list



Will it get replaced with 2 more events?


----------



## Kirjava (Jul 17, 2012)

I imagine any poll you made would still go in favour of removal.

We are not WSSA, we are puzzle solvers.


----------



## tx789 (Jul 17, 2012)

Kirjava said:


> I imagine any poll you made would still go in favour of removal.
> 
> We are not WSSA, we are puzzle solvers.



Ture 

You created a thread about events to remove with no poll to contrast my thread of events to add in late 2010. I later created a newer theard with a poll early last year. If we were to replace them what with, Skewb and...

People said magics and get mainly 


And magics are most like speedstacking than any other wca event, none others are anything close.


----------



## Bob (Jul 17, 2012)

tx789 said:


> Will it get replaced with 2 more events?



If so, it will not be because these events were removed.


----------



## bamilan (Jul 17, 2012)

Bob said:


> I would still like to see feet, 6x6 and 7x7 be removed. I think these events are worse than the Magics.



Agree.


----------



## Alcuber (Jul 17, 2012)

Hmm, I wasn't really expecting this to happen although I do see why it has as magics are kinda silly. I don't really care that much but I feel kinda sorry for the people that were good at them =/.


----------



## Stefan (Jul 17, 2012)

drewsopchak said:


> SWEEEEEEEEEET! This is great!





sa11297 said:


> So happy right now, I never liked magic or mastermagic.



So you're celebrating that others are losing something they like.
Bet you're the same kind of person who kicks other people's sand castles.



qqwref said:


> I remember when a 1.06 was a world-class magic time.
> 
> Goddamn am I getting old.



I remember world records from 1.49 to 1.23, how old does that make me?


----------



## JasonK (Jul 17, 2012)

Stefan said:


> So you're celebrating that others are losing something they like.
> Bet you're the same kind of person who kicks other people's sand castles.


It's always possible that they're celebrating the fact that competitions will be more consistent and judging less problematic...


----------



## Kirjava (Jul 17, 2012)

Stefan said:


> So you're celebrating that others are losing something they like.



Maybe they're celebrating because the WCA is being improved.


----------



## Godmil (Jul 17, 2012)

Kirjava said:


> Maybe they're celebrating because the WCA is being improved.



I think it's quite exciting that the WCA is making big dramatic changes (which seem to be for the best), the last thing we want is stagnation.


----------



## Stefan (Jul 17, 2012)

mitch1234 said:


> Since most fast magic solvers will solve in about <1.3 seconds if you even blink you could miss some of the solve.



Since *all 7x7* solvers will solve in *several minutes when* you blink you *will *miss some of the solve.



Kirjava said:


> Maybe they're celebrating because the WCA is being improved.



Maybe. But they don't show that. Really just looks like kicking someone else's sand castle to me.


----------



## lras (Jul 17, 2012)

I was surprised by this decision but I can accept it. I always knew that the Magic events were silly, but they are still funny, and I like them (even if I haven't practiced them in the past few years). I will miss them.


----------



## Eleredo (Jul 17, 2012)

Next one on the list; pyraminx.



aronpm said:


> Can you explain the reasoning behind your request?



This is not a request, just something I think will happen in the future.


----------



## aronpm (Jul 17, 2012)

Eleredo said:


> Next one on the list; pyraminx.


Can you explain the reasoning behind your request?


----------



## BlueDevil (Jul 17, 2012)

Eleredo said:


> This is not a request, just something I think will happen in the future.



I think pyraminx is a fine event. It can be run easily, and even though there is some luck to it, you still have to be good at it to be high in the rankings.

Also, really don't care that magics are gone. They always seem to take longer than usual, and are generally a hassle, so I'm happy to see them go.

Now I'll have to podium in some real events though.


----------



## Eleredo (Jul 17, 2012)

Well, I have a feeling they're removing the puzzles that are deemed 'too easy', like almost everyone can get fast at a magic, and they're now gone. I have a feeling the same will happen to pyraminxes; they too are easy to get fast at for almost everyone.


----------



## BlueDevil (Jul 17, 2012)

Eleredo said:


> Well, I have a feeling they're removing the puzzles that are deemed 'too easy', like almost everyone can get fast at a magic, and they're now gone. I have a feeling the same will happen to pyraminxes; they too are easy to get fast at for almost everyone.



They're removing magics because of judging integrity. They believe that with the speed of the solves, it is too hard to judge the validity of a solve. 
Sure, pyraminx is pretty easy, but a pyra solve can be judged just as any other event can.


----------



## Godmil (Jul 17, 2012)

Eleredo said:


> Well, I have a feeling they're removing the puzzles that are deemed 'too easy', like almost everyone can get fast at a magic, and they're now gone. I have a feeling the same will happen to pyraminxes; they too are easy to get fast at for almost everyone.



I don't think the biggest problem was that it was easy, but rather that it no longer was a 'puzzle' (now that there is essentially one way of completing it that everyone does). I don't think any other puzzles fall into that category.


----------



## Yuxuibbs (Jul 17, 2012)

Ranzha V. Emodrach said:


> How do inexperienced people get experienced?



By having an experienced person teach an inexperienced person during the round or? Basically 2 judges, 1 experienced and 1 inexperienced. If they can correctly judge like 30 or some number of solves in a row with some set number of possible things that can happen during an official magic solve they can judge officially?


----------



## Sebastien (Jul 17, 2012)

Yuxuibbs said:


> By having an experienced person teach an inexperienced person during the round or? Basically 2 judges, 1 experienced and 1 inexperienced. If they can correctly judge like 30 or some number of solves in a row with some set number of possible things that can happen during an official magic solve they can judge officially?



Say Hi to Utopia.

I was told that the judges from last 2 worlds were taught by experienced people as well and a lot of us know about the outcome. Not even talking about magic judging now which is still more difficult.


----------



## oranjules (Jul 17, 2012)

Eleredo said:


> I have a feeling the same will happen to pyraminxes; they too are easy to get fast at for almost everyone.



How fast are you at pyra ?

And also, there has always been a lack of regulations about magic/master magic... The starting and finishing states are defined, but not the way to move from one to another...


----------



## Kirjava (Jul 17, 2012)

oranjules said:


> And also, there has always been a lack of regulations about magic/master magic... The starting and finishing states are defined, but not the way to move from one to another...



I wouldn't call absence of unnecessary regulations a lack.


----------



## Endgame (Jul 17, 2012)

Kirjava said:


> I wouldn't call absence of unnecessary regulations a lack.



Same goes for the events themselves.


----------



## oranjules (Jul 17, 2012)

But if someone come with a magic that only need a 6-flip, not the twist, it should be not allowed, but there is nothing against it in the rules


----------



## Endgame (Jul 17, 2012)

oranjules said:


> But if someone come with a magic that only need a 6-flip, not the twist, it should be not allowed, but there is nothing against it in the rules



The events will be removed starting 1st January, 2013, so why care?


----------



## Kirjava (Jul 17, 2012)

oranjules said:


> But if someone come with a magic that only need a 6-flip, not the twist, it should be not allowed, but there is nothing against it in the rules



3c


----------



## hcfong (Jul 17, 2012)

Kirjava said:


> 3c



and perhaps 3h as well


----------



## Ranzha (Jul 17, 2012)

I still don't understand why people are under the impression magics' removal necessitates their 'replacement'. Mutual exclusivity, guise.


----------



## Ninja Storm (Jul 17, 2012)

Ranzha V. Emodrach said:


> I still don't understand why people are under the impression magics' removal necessitates their 'replacement'. Mutual exclusivity, guise.



I feel like people are hoping they're favorite unofficial event will become official.


----------



## Owen (Jul 17, 2012)

I think the judging problem could be solved by only letting qualified people judge. A lot of competitions run low on time and let anyone judge, even first-time competitors. The regulations don't work if no one knows them.


----------



## Sebastien (Jul 17, 2012)

Owen said:


> I think the judging problem could be solved by only letting qualified people judge. A lot of competitions run low on time and let anyone judge, even first-time competitors. The regulations don't work if no one knows them.



And again: say Hi to Utopia.


----------



## insane569 (Jul 17, 2012)

Man magics sure are a big thing. I never got to solve one in competition. But I wont miss it. No magic means more time for other events. Like OH or MBLD.


----------



## TheLowRider512 (Jul 17, 2012)

I think if they are replacing magics with another event, it should be Team BLD. This is not an official event, but is sometimes at competitions, and I find it extremely fun to do.


----------



## Sebastien (Jul 17, 2012)

Why not replace magic with cup stacking?

Seriously guys, stop suggesting new events only because other are getting removed. Just don't be so naive and off-topic!


----------



## hcfong (Jul 17, 2012)

Well, cup stacking is not a Rubik's puzzle or twisty puzzle and therefore falls outside the scope of interest of the WCA. In fact, if Magic wasn't a Rubik's puzzle, I doubt it would have been an official event in the first place.

Having said that, I agree with your second point.


----------



## Vincents (Jul 17, 2012)

Team BLD has other problems right now.

For example, how would you store results? If you have competitor A and B who are a team, how do we store their results? Do you rank by teams? If A calls and B solves, is that different from if B calls and A solves? Does each person get one ranking, or multiple? For example, if A and B set a time of 1:00, and A and C set a time of 0:59, is A ranked twice? How does that display on the WCA profile? How do we store the results?

I could go on.


----------



## lachose (Jul 17, 2012)

As I said in the new events thread, I think we shouldn't store results as team results. For me rankings should be (using your example) : 
1. A (with C) 0:59
1. C (with A) 0:59
2. B (with C) 1:00

That way, results are individual and just precise with who your time was done. And you don't need to separate caller and solver because the important is the understanding between the two people not their roles (in my opinion).


----------



## Mr Cubism (Jul 17, 2012)

Tyson said:


> .....will be not holding the event in 2013. Records and times will be archived, but no new times would take place.



The person who has the WR in the end of 2012 will keep that record for ever. Cool!


----------



## applemobile (Jul 17, 2012)

What is stopping all the people who want magic, to part and make their own official association and take on the Magic and Master magic as an official event? Apart from the fact it would be absolutely boring as hell and probably only 3 people would turn up.


----------



## Kirjava (Jul 17, 2012)

Mr Cubism said:


> The person who has the WR in the end of 2012 will keep that record for ever. Cool!



What record?



applemobile said:


> What is stopping all the people who want magic, to part and make their own official association and take on the Magic and Master magic as an official event? Apart from the fact it would be absolutely boring as hell and probably only 3 people would turn up.



You just answered your own question.


----------



## cityzach (Jul 17, 2012)

Kirjava said:


> What record?



Can't tell if trolling or..
Magic and Master Magic world records...


----------



## Kirjava (Jul 17, 2012)

cityzach said:


> Can't tell if trolling or..
> Magic and Master Magic world records...



You mean...

..._unofficial_ world records?


----------



## Sebastien (Jul 18, 2012)

Noone loses what he likes, it will just not be an official puzzle anymore. 

Actually everyone will get over it after some time. I would divide people liking magic in 2 groups: One group of people who just like doing magics somehow but know that it is a completely stupid event compared to other WCA events, and one group of people who will eventually turn 14.


----------



## Mollerz (Jul 18, 2012)

Magic is a stupid event, I don't know why I really practice it, just fills some time when I can't turn cubes, it's fun to do as a little time filler. I guess Sebastien hit the nail on the head really.

This was a long time coming, I doubt many people will miss it. Can't wait for magic HTH at UK Competitions now ._.


----------



## samchoochiu (Jul 18, 2012)

Kirjava said:


> You mean...
> 
> ..._unofficial_ world records?


I find that a bit insulting.


----------



## cityzach (Jul 18, 2012)

I understand the reasons why magics are being removed, and I do agree with them. What I hate is how everyone is reacting to this. Mostly everyone is making really a-hole ish comments about how they are sooooo happy magic is finally being removed. For example: kirjava and Sebastien. I just feel like these people should take into consideration that some people (like me) really enjoy magics and are sad to see them going.

Of course that's just me, and nobody is going to agree with me and i'll probably get flamed for making this comment, but whatever.


----------



## Stefan (Jul 18, 2012)

Dene said:


> You know I would!



I don't think so. You're a kind, fair, respectful and empathetic person.



Sebastien said:


> Noone loses what he likes, it will just not be an official puzzle anymore.



Wrong, the people who like it being an official event/puzzle *do* lose that (I'm actually surprised you didn't understand that).



cityzach said:


> What I hate is how *everyone *is reacting to this [...] Of course that's *just me*, and *nobody *is going to agree with me



In order to be taken seriously, it's advisable to not start off with lies.



cityzach said:


> Mostly everyone [...] ie kirjava and Sebastien



You might want to look up what "i.e." means.


----------



## cityzach (Jul 18, 2012)

Stefan said:


> In order to be taken seriously, it's advisable to not start off with lies.



It was more of an exaggeration then a lie.

I really hate how condescending some of the people on here can be. I'll probably get laughed at for this too though...


----------



## Julian (Jul 18, 2012)

cityzach said:


> I really hate how condescending some of the people on here can be. I'll probably get laughed at for this too though...


"I know I'm going to get downvoted/flooded with red thumbs/lost in the comments section..."

Just a way of preventing it from actually happening.


----------



## Ninja Storm (Jul 18, 2012)

Not really a Magic fan, but I still think it's disrespectful and rude for people to be happy that Magic is gone. It seems to be rubbing salt into the wounds of those who really enjoyed the event.

I won't say that I'm sad to see the event go, but I still think that some people need to learn that others are quite sad about this turn of events.


----------



## JonnyWhoopes (Jul 18, 2012)

Ninja Storm said:


> Not really a Magic fan, but I still think it's disrespectful and rude for people to be happy that Magic is gone. It seems to be rubbing salt into the wounds of those who really enjoyed the event.
> 
> I won't say that I'm sad to see the event go, but I still think that some people need to learn that others are quite sad about this turn of events.



Just because some people are disappointed at the way events are unfolding, doesn't mean others can't be happy about it. If we follow that logic, the world would be full of sadness and apathy, and no joy could ever be produced.


----------



## Stefan (Jul 18, 2012)

Ninja Storm said:


> it's disrespectful and rude for people to be happy that Magic is gone



Being happy ≠ expressing happiness ≠ expressing happiness certain ways



JonnyWhoopes said:


> Just because some people are disappointed at the way events are unfolding, doesn't mean others can't be happy about it. If we follow that logic, the world would be full of sadness and apathy, and *no joy could ever be produced*.



Why, who is disappointed when I experience or think of beauty, which does produce joy for me? Are you saying that all joy comes at the expense of others?


----------



## JonnyWhoopes (Jul 18, 2012)

Stefan said:


> Why, who is disappointed when I experience or think of beauty, which does produce joy for me? Are you saying that all joy comes at the expense of others?



Because of the nature of humanity, there will always be somebody disappointed or unsatisfied with any given thing. There is no one thing that can satisfy everybody. If we are not allowed to be joyful (or more precisely, express joy) in the presence of that given disappointment, then no joy can ever be expressed.

To answer the question, no, joy does not come at the expense of others. That is, however, what my poorly phrased post did seem to imply. The post was rushed on my part.


----------



## jonlin (Jul 18, 2012)

JonnyWhoopes said:


> Because of the nature of humanity, there will always be somebody disappointed or unsatisfied with any given thing. There is no one thing that can satisfy everybody. If we are not allowed to be joyful (or more precisely, express joy) in the presence of that given disappointment, then no joy can ever be expressed.
> 
> To answer the question, no, joy does not come at the expense of others. That is, however, what my poorly phrased post did seem to imply. The post was rushed on my part.



I'm guessing someone stuck in a mountain cave for 3 days accidentally w/o food or water would feel joyful if someone rescued them and gave them a free meals + water.
Just saying.


----------



## JonnyWhoopes (Jul 18, 2012)

jonlin said:


> I'm guessing someone stuck in a mountain cave for 3 days accidentally w/o food or water would feel joyful if someone rescued them and gave them a free meals + water.
> Just saying.



I think you missed my point. Somebody somewhere is bound to be disappointed by the event. If we follow the logic that we shouldn't be allowed to be happy in a situation where others are unhappy, then no, the man would not be allowed to express his joy. He would undoubtedly feel joy, but barred from expressing that just because somebody doesn't like it.

Anyway, while fun, this is all terribly off topic.


----------



## Ninja Storm (Jul 18, 2012)

JonnyWhoopes said:


> I think you missed my point. Somebody somewhere is bound to be disappointed by the event. If we follow the logic that we shouldn't be allowed to be happy in a situation where others are unhappy, then no, the man would not be allowed to express his joy. He would undoubtedly feel joy, but barred from expressing that just because somebody doesn't like it.
> 
> Anyway, while fun, this is all terribly off topic.



However, it's not polite for those to be happy to be expressing in ways that obviously offend others, such as


drewsopchak said:


> SWEEEEEEEEEET! This is great!


----------



## tx789 (Jul 18, 2012)

For the people who lov it why not have it at comps unofficaly of course and record oall the times on some website somewhere 


When I did magic is was fun for me I did master magic more that was one and a half years ago. I want some offical time at it. ANd I will be happy and ddon't car that it is gone.


----------



## Ranzha (Jul 18, 2012)

*Perhaps a Crazy Idea*

So when Tyson mentioned archiving all the magics' times and records for 2013, I thought of resurrecting an official database for unofficial events. That is, a database for unofficial events' times and records to go when the unofficial events are held at WCA competitions.
Besides satisfying the magics' recordkeeping for upcoming years, this database can also be used to test how well-implemented other unofficial events can/will be handled, especially if certain unofficial events are being looked at by the WRC for potential addition to the official events list.
This also ties to my personal interest for knowing whether or not I have OUWR for Skewb average with 7.78. But whatever.

Also, @Dene: I've noticed the post deletions as well.


----------



## tx789 (Jul 18, 2012)

Ranzha V. Emodrach said:


> So when Tyson mentioned archiving all the magics' times and records for 2013, I thought of resurrecting an official database for unofficial events. That is, a database for unofficial events' times and records to go when the unofficial events are held at WCA competitions.
> Besides satisfying the magics' recordkeeping for upcoming years, this database can also be used to test how well-implemented other unofficial events can/will be handled, especially if certain unofficial events are being looked at by the WRC for potential addition to the official events list.
> This also ties to my personal interest for knowing whether or not I have OUWR for Skewb average with 7.78. But whatever.
> 
> Also, @Dene: I've noticed the post deletions as well.





I've seen an old one
http://www.speedcubing.com/results/e.php?i=234


----------



## Ranzha (Jul 18, 2012)

tx789 said:


> I've seen an old one



>resurrecting

I've seen one too. That's why I brought it up.

The thing here is, though, that I don't think ever before have events been removed from the WCA events list and then hosted regularly at competitions thenceforth.


----------



## Bob (Jul 18, 2012)

Ranzha V. Emodrach said:


> >resurrecting
> 
> I've seen one too. That's why I brought it up.
> 
> The thing here is, though, that I don't think ever before have events been removed from the WCA events list and then hosted regularly at competitions thenceforth.



Some of those events were official at one time. The Rainbow cube and Siamese cubes, for example, were official at the time. However, unlike Magic, they were only held as official for one competition. Magic is the first event that has been an event for a while (almost 10 years!) and then got retired.


----------



## tx789 (Jul 18, 2012)

maybe create a new website for it amd people who send the wca magic times send it two who ever run the website which will record magic


----------



## Kian (Jul 18, 2012)

Bob said:


> Some of those events were official at one time. The Rainbow cube and Siamese cubes, for example, were official at the time. However, unlike Magic, they were only held as official for one competition. Magic is the first event that has been an event for a while (almost 10 years!) and then got retired.



2x2 OH and 3 cubes in a row? Weren't they official for some time a long time ago or am I remember incorrectly?


----------



## Thepuzzlesolver (Jul 18, 2012)

Wow, I hate this! Magic was my favorite event ever since I first tried it! I always liked getting low times, and hated restringing (in fact I still have my magic in a bag for a while, simply because I had another, although it is my main...) I hate how some people are overreacting with joy as stated before by a few people. I think this is going to be a HUGE change in the WCA, some positives (I can't see too many, just because these are removed, doesn't mean replacements are coming!) and some negatives, There will be a bit of rebellion before they get over it, or make an unofficial group, for magics, which can then add more events too... It might not be official, but after a while, if all goes miraculously well, it could be official later on..... Keeping up my hopes that magic stays!!!


----------



## PeteyKaralis (Jul 18, 2012)

This is stupid to remove magic.. Like, I'm the first to say that magic is a stupid event, and it's basically like having a H-Perm competition. (lol) But why remove it? It literally takes 5 minutes to have magic in a competition, and I think the more events, the better. Why should events such as multi blind, 3x3 with feet, or even pyraminx be an event, if magic can't be. I bet more people worldwide enjoy magic over pyraminx! I know I do! 

I just think it's completely stupid to remove magic, as people have records, and it would be a shame to be the worlds Number 1 at something and get it taken away from you. 

There should be a poll for this.


----------



## aronpm (Jul 18, 2012)

PeteyKaralis said:


> This is stupid to remove magic.. Like, I'm the first to say that magic is a stupid event, and it's basically like having a H-Perm competition. (lol) But why remove it? It literally takes 5 minutes to have magic in a competition, and I think the more events, the better. Why should events such as multi blind, 3x3 with feet, or even pyraminx be an event, if magic can't be. I bet more people worldwide enjoy magic over pyraminx! I know I do!
> 
> I just think it's completely stupid to remove magic, as people have records, and it would be a shame to be the worlds Number 1 at something and get it taken away from you.
> 
> There should be a poll for this.



the reasons have already been explained in this thread


----------



## tx789 (Jul 18, 2012)

It is hard to jugbe the sub 1 solves of magic it is so fast.


----------



## PeteyKaralis (Jul 18, 2012)

aronpm said:


> the reasons have already been explained in this thread



I know. I just had to voice my opinion


----------



## Thepuzzlesolver (Jul 18, 2012)

tx789 said:


> It is hard to jugbe the sub 1 solves of magic it is so fast.


Take a camera, then play it in slow motion, might take longer, but if its difficult it would work


----------



## PeteyKaralis (Jul 18, 2012)

Thepuzzlesolver said:


> Take a camera, then play it in slow motion, might take longer, but if its difficult it would work



That's true. After all, Speed Stack competitions (cup stacking) film all of their attempts and watch them in slow motion.


----------



## tx789 (Jul 18, 2012)

Thepuzzlesolver said:


> Take a camera, then play it in slow motion, might take longer, but if its difficult it would work



Yeah but not all comps will have camera's that the main reason the other is that it is the same thing over and over again every time


----------



## guinepigs rock (Jul 18, 2012)

I know a few people who only compete in magic and master magic and to take that away from thin is sad.


----------



## Thepuzzlesolver (Jul 18, 2012)

tx789 said:


> Yeah but not all comps will have camera's that the main reason the other is that it is the same thing over and over again every time





PeteyKaralis said:


> That's true. After all, Speed Stack competitions (cup stacking) film all of their attempts and watch them in slow motion.


So is the Speed Stacks (cups) yet they still do it, and if they don't have cameras don't host it, feet solving isn't common but is still official


----------



## tx789 (Jul 18, 2012)

Thepuzzlesolver said:


> So is the Speed Stacks (cups) yet they still do it, and if they don't have cameras don't host it, feet solving isn't common but is still official



We not the wssa as kir said earlier in this theard 
No event should need it and takes time and at worlds watching all the magic solvers in slow motion is...
In comps events take time bld is the worst for this of you did this for magic it is more time and isn't worth it


----------



## Thepuzzlesolver (Jul 18, 2012)

tx789 said:


> We not the wssa as kir said earlier in this theard
> No event should need it and takes time and at worlds watching all the magic solvers in slow motion is...
> In comps events take time bld is the worst for this of you did this for magic it is more time and isn't worth it


Why don't the people watch the slow motion while others do blind, since it takes time like you said?


----------



## tx789 (Jul 18, 2012)

Thepuzzlesolver said:


> Why don't the people watch the slow motion while others do blind, since it takes time like you said?



What the comp is small watching event in slowmotion for cubing is stupi the only event that it might be useful in is 2x2 for sub 1 singles by those a rare their has been six. Magic has had heaps of sub 1 .9 .8 singles and averages


----------



## Dene (Jul 18, 2012)

I rest my case...


----------



## Carson (Jul 18, 2012)

In a way, I am somewhat sad to see magic go, but I am glad that it finally happened. Many newer and/or younger competitors often learn magic as a "2nd" event to participate in before they begin to learn other puzzles. Also, some VERY young competitors only know how to solve a magic. With that being said, judging and officiating these events at a competition is an absolute nightmare and getting rid of them will save myself and others more than a few headaches. Good riddance...

I have often interjected my desire for skewb to be adopted as an official event for the last couple of years. While I don't believe this should happen strictly due to other events being removed, I hope that a couple fewer events will reduce the number of barriers.


----------

