# Quick experiment, need participants



## Stefan (Jul 2, 2009)

This is an experiment. You need to know full CFOP to participate, though the results might be interesting for everyone.

If you know full CFOP, please solve the following scrambles and record your times. Then follow the instructions in the spoiler below. Don't read the spoiler before you're finished with the solves, it would influence you and invalidate the results. Also don't read the replies before you're finished.

1) R F2 B2 D2 U2 F R' F2 D B2 L' B R' B2 L2 D F B2 D' B R2 U B2 F L
2) U L U B L2 D L' D2 R D U L' F R' U2 L2 R U2 B D2 R2 F' R2 L' B
3) F R U' L2 D' R2 F2 L R' F D' R B2 U' F' D' L' B' D U L' R2 F2 L' D2
4) R B F' R2 D' B R2 D2 B U' F L' B D L2 R2 D' U L2 D' U' B D' R U2



Spoiler



Do you remember the OLL case or the PLL case of the last solve? Try to remember before you continue to read...

Now vote in the *above poll* like this:

Option 1: Forgot OLL, forgot PLL
Option 2: Forgot OLL, remember PLL
Option 3: Remember OLL, forgot PLL
Option 4: Remember OLL, remember PLL

Note: Vote in the above poll, don't post your result as a reply message unless you have something to say about it.


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## trying-to-speedcube... (Jul 2, 2009)

Option 4 .


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## Samlambert (Jul 2, 2009)

Option 4 sadasdada


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## StachuK1992 (Jul 2, 2009)

Option 4.

Although I don't know full OLL, I remember the shape of it, and could trace it back.
By this, I mean that I could inverse my two OLL stages. Sure, not exactly what you wanted, but I hope it helps anyway.


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## Feanaro (Jul 2, 2009)

Option 4
Message to short


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## Jai (Jul 2, 2009)

Option 1 >_<


Spoiler



Yeah, I forget what LL I have a lot of the time, but I usually remember when I have easy solves, or if there's any other particular reason to remember the solve.


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## PatrickJameson (Jul 2, 2009)

Option 2.



Spoiler



Huh. I must have a bad memory.


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## Zava (Jul 2, 2009)

option 4, though I had to think a bit


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## Mike Hughey (Jul 2, 2009)

I voted option 1.


Spoiler



I totally couldn't remember. But after I read the options, I reapplied the scramble, and I was very easily able to reconstruct the entire solve. So actually after attempting the reconstruction, I totally remembered which OLL and PLL I got.

So I don't know, Stefan, did I vote correctly or incorrectly according to what you wanted?

Reconstructed solve (without including cube orientations after start - it takes too long for me to write it that way):
z2 y
L U' D F' L' B D
U2 L U L F' L' F U2 L'
F' U' F U R' U' R
R U' R' U2 F' U' F
F U' F'
OLL: R B R' L U L' U' R B' R'
PLL: U R U' R U F D' F D F2 R F R' F' R'
58 moves; with cancellations it would actually be 52, despite the bad OLL and PLL. A very easy solve. I got a 24.97, which is quite good for me.


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## Carrot (Jul 2, 2009)

Option 2
G-perm


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## Stefan (Jul 2, 2009)

Patrick and Odder, please use the above poll for your results. It's there so we get a statistic.

No use to post your result in a reply unless you also have something to say about it.


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## Carrot (Jul 2, 2009)

StefanPochmann said:


> Patrick and Odder, please use the above poll for your results. It's there so we get a statistic.
> 
> No use to post your result in a reply unless you also have something to say about it.



Sorry :/ I didn't see the poll before now ^^


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## brunson (Jul 2, 2009)

LOL! That's a great test, Stefan. 


Spoiler



I inserted my 3rd corner in a slot I'd already filled and had to fix that screw up. I was so preoccupied with that mistake and watching my terrible time out of the corner of my eye that I must have been on complete auto-pilot. I sat for a full minute trying to come up with *any* recollection of my last layer, but I got nothing.


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## Stefan (Jul 2, 2009)

Note to all: You can stop using spoilers, I now added to the first post that people shouldn't read on before they're finished.



Mike Hughey said:


> I totally couldn't remember. But after I read the options, I reapplied the scramble, and I was very easily able to reconstruct the entire solve. So actually after attempting the reconstruction, I totally remembered which OLL and PLL I got.
> 
> So I don't know, Stefan, *did I vote correctly or incorrectly according to what you wanted?*



I intend it as an attention/memory test. So unless you did the reconstruction in your head alone, not on a real cube, you voted according to what I wanted.


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## Stefan (Jul 2, 2009)

brunson said:


> I sat for a full minute trying to come up with *any* recollection of my last layer, but I got nothing.


Yeah, that happened to me many times, too. Sometimes for some reason after the solve I want to remember an alg I used, maybe because I remembered it was particularly fast or slow, and then I sit there and realize my mind is blank. It's what made me come up with this experiment.


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## Mike Hughey (Jul 2, 2009)

StefanPochmann said:


> I intend it as an attention/memory test. So unless you did the reconstruction in your head alone, not on a real cube, you voted according to what I wanted.


I did not do the reconstruction in my head, so good - I voted correctly.

I suspect I would have remembered easier OLLs and PLLs. It seems like it's harder to remember what I've used when I get hard ones. Also, the other scrambles were pretty bad for me - I was actually getting kind of frustrated. I suspect that had something to do with it too.

Or maybe not.


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## Sa967St (Jul 2, 2009)

4. I remembered them because it was an easy LL (square, J perm). I sometimes forget the OLL right after I do a solve, but I usually remember the PLL.


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## JTW2007 (Jul 2, 2009)

Sa967St said:


> 4. I remembered them because it was an easy LL (square, J perm). I sometimes forget the OLL right after I do a solve, but I usually remember the PLL.



Same exact thing for me.


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## Stefan (Jul 2, 2009)

Mike Hughey said:


> Also, the other scrambles were pretty bad for me


Ah, yes... sorry btw everyone I made you solve four times when I was only interested in one. But I had good reasons:

- Had I given you only one solve, you might've focused much more on it. People focus more if they only have one chance. Plus, with four solves the attention you do mobilize gets spread. Plus I hoped you'd be more focused on the experiment right after you read about it and less so after a few solves.

- It's more realistic. Unless your cubing sessions are very short, you're more likely to be inside a session than at its start.

- I had four options and wanted to disguise what I'm really after, hoping that if you speculated about the intention, this would keep you from guessing the real purpose.

Also sorry for making you record the times, just to throw them away. But without that, you would've noticed something's fishy or would've tried to remember things.


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## JTW2007 (Jul 2, 2009)

StefanPochmann said:


> Mike Hughey said:
> 
> 
> > Also, the other scrambles were pretty bad for me
> ...



A very well conducted experiment, if you ask me.


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## Feanaro (Jul 2, 2009)

Yeah, I got some of the cases mixed up, but then remembered the last ones. So that was a good way of conducting it by doing more than one solve.


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## Stefan (Jul 2, 2009)

And in hindsight...

- I should've also said to scramble with cross color on bottom. Some of you might've thought this is about a comparison of your solves against each other (what I kinda suggested with the number of options/scrambles) and against the results of others, and might've realized that for that it matters how you hold the cube when you scramble. On the other hand... the color neutral guys might've gotten annoyed.

- Obviously I couldn't participate myself, but I should've tried the scrambles myself to make sure there's nothing special about them. I only copied them from a scrambler not checking them out at all.


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## beingforitself (Jul 2, 2009)

I tried for several minute, but could only remember my OLL (it was a W I am particularly fast at). After posting my poll result and reading through the replies, I saw someone mention that they had a G-perm, which suddenly made me remember that I in fact had a G-perm on the last solve. Memory is a weird thing sometimes.

EDIT: Upon further reflection, the reason I remembered only my OLL was not because I am particularly fast at it, but because the same OLL (or maybe it's reflection) had occurred PREVIOUSLY in one of the first three solves, whereas my 4 PLL cases were all different.


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## Stefan (Jul 2, 2009)

Feanaro said:


> Yeah, I got some of the cases mixed up, but then remembered the last ones. So that was a good way of conducting it by doing more than one solve.


Right, memory interference with previous solves is another good reason, similar to but more direct than my "it's more realistic". Not sure I thought about that one before. I might have, as I came up with this experiment a while ago already, and have forgotten some of the reasoning in the meantime.


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## shelley (Jul 2, 2009)

Unless my last layer cases particularly stand out for some reason or another, I usually have to think about it for a while before remembering. And this is only if asked to recall immediately after the fact. Give me more than a few minutes or hours, distract me with trying to calculate my average, and I probably won't remember at all (I certainly don't remember what any of my last layer cases were like at the competition last Saturday).

A few of us were talking about this at one tournament. A golfer can recall with much detail the conditions of a certain shot on a certain hole in a certain tournament, while a cuber can barely remember what OLL he had on his last solve.


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## Stefan (Jul 2, 2009)

Oh and thanks to all participants. Interesting results already. I'm particularly thrilled there's now someone who forgot the PLL but remembered the OLL. I was curious to find out whether this would happen at all.


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## Ellis (Jul 2, 2009)

I voted option 4, but I misunderstood the question. It was really option 3, remember OLL, forgot PLL. When I read the question I thought it said "_Did_ you...", meaning to ask if I forgot the actual algorithm during the solve. I had 2 opp edge OLL and I'm still trying to remember which PLL I had. 

I very often forget both OLL and PLL right after a solve, but I think I probably forget the PLL more.

Edit: G-perm.... R-perm maybe? GAH. I feel like it was fast because it was a good time. I probably forget PLL (at least temporarily) ~90% of the time. I think I remember OLL more easily because it isn't as automatic for me and I have to think about it a little more.


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## Lord Voldemort (Jul 2, 2009)

Option 3... 
I can remember PLL most of the time, and OLL if it's a bad case (I'm slow at doing it)


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## Jebediah54 (Jul 2, 2009)

I had a bit of a rough time remembering, but in the end I remembered a knight-move OLL and an F-perm both of which I don't really like...


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## Ethan Rosen (Jul 2, 2009)

Option 4. I knew as soon as I saw the question that I got an Ra-Perm, however the only reason that I knew the OLL was because it was a special case. If it had just been almost any other OLL position, I wouldn't have gotten it.


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## masterofthebass (Jul 2, 2009)

I luckily did COLL and got a PLL skip, therefore it was quite simple to remember  Also, I happened to take a break after the first two solves, so my results may be skewed. I did vote option #4 though.


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## Kian (Jul 2, 2009)

Option 4. I'm surprised to see so many that aren't.


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## Cerberus (Jul 2, 2009)

option 4


Spoiler



since I got the same OLL again, but really had to think for it, what was really weird...
PLL was really easy


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## Kian (Jul 2, 2009)

shelley said:


> A few of us were talking about this at one tournament. A golfer can recall with much detail the conditions of a certain shot on a certain hole in a certain tournament, while a cuber can barely remember what OLL he had on his last solve.



Absolutely. Golf is so amazing like that. I think it's because we put so much thought into every single stroke.

I can remember almost full rounds from HS matches I played, and I graduated HS in 2004. It's just how the sport is.


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## JoseRubik (Jul 2, 2009)

Option 4 .


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## Lucas Garron (Jul 2, 2009)

I assumed I counted for this experiment, too, and I think I'm justified.

Option 4:
CLS: R2UR'URU2'R'UR'
PLL: R'UR'U'yR'F'R2U'R'UR'FRF

I had a V-perm on solve 2 also, I think.
That CLS was also on my last two OPBs.

Also, I've been trying to keep track of my PLLs in competition by writing them next to the time (we get receipts most comps). Haven't reviewed the results, though, and some rounds I just don't bother to record them.


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## Dene (Jul 3, 2009)

I remembered the PLL but forgot the OLL. An interesting thing about being colour neutral is that if you ask me what colour cross I used, I can almost never recall.

The problems I have with this experiment: I was extremely suspicious that it would be a memory test. Thus I paid extra attention to my cross colours, OLLs and PLLs. Unfortunately I got distracted by my terrible performance (two high 18s, a 20.03 and a 20.05) and can only recall that I used orange for the first cross, white for one of the crosses, and that I finished with a terrible G perm. 
I also think that this test effects those who are colour neutral differently. My reason for this is that when you are colour neutral I believe that the colours stand out less, and patterns stand out more (unverified claim, naturally). This might in fact work in favour of being colour neutral. I'm not really sure though. 

The other problem is that I find cubing to be a good time for me to sit back and do some hard thinking, and not focus on the cubing at all. I can do whole sessions and not recall a single thing from them. Thus I don't particularly see any connection to "memory" as opposed to "who was focussing more at this particular time".

EDIT: I tried reconstructing my solve, but to no avail; I can't even decide which colour cross I used, let alone reconstruct the whole F2L


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## byu (Jul 3, 2009)

Option 4 for me.

Although I suppose my vote shouldn't really count... because I didn't know full OLL. Instead, I did partial edge control in F2L to guarantee an all edges oriented LL. 

Stefan- did I do the right thing in voting Option 4?


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## Tim Reynolds (Jul 3, 2009)

Option forget OLL, remember PLL
I can remember 2 OLLs that I did during the session, but not which is which.

I can remember that it was an A perm because I did it lefty, when I usually do it righty. I think I could still remember it most of the time anyway, but I was thinking about the fact that I had done it unusually as I recorded the result.

I had been expecting something like (some property of the scramble) vs. time, so I wasn't at all thinking like Dene. Oh yeah, and these were terrible scrambles for me.

EDIT: So I managed to reconstruct my solve (after a few tries). Interestingly, I had a 6-move OLL, one which I was pretty sure I hadn't gotten during the session. Also interestingly, based on the way that the cube came up for my PLL, I did the OLL as F U R U' R' F', when I would usually do it as (U2) f R U R' U' f'. So even though I remembered my PLL based on the fact that I did it unusually, I couldn't remember the OLL which I did unusually. Strange.


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## Lt-UnReaL (Jul 3, 2009)

Option 4. I knew the PLL immediately, but I had to think for a few seconds to remember the OLL.


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## Kev43 (Jul 3, 2009)

Option 4.
Easy because I had a PLL skip  And the OLL was easy to solve


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## Pedro (Jul 3, 2009)

Option 3, but I usually remember the PLL, not the OLL...


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## MistArts (Jul 3, 2009)

Option 3; a few minutes after I voted, I remember the PLL.


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## Daniel Wu (Jul 3, 2009)

Option 1. I forgot everything... XD Oh well.


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## Enter (Jul 3, 2009)

OLL was RwUR'U'RRw'URU'R' the big fish and the PLL was V perm. has some one else got the same as I ?


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## Johannes91 (Jul 3, 2009)

shelley said:


> A golfer can recall with much detail the conditions of a certain shot on a certain hole in a certain tournament, while a cuber can barely remember what OLL he had on his last solve.


Chess players can recall whole games even after a long time they were played, too. I don't think the difference is surprising; in speedcubing, the moves aren't that important, you just need to do them quickly, which is the exact opposite of longer-than-blitz chess and FMC. I remember many of my FMC solves quite well.



Dene said:


> An interesting thing about being colour neutral is that if you ask me what colour cross I used, I can almost never recall.


Same here, except s/colour cross/colors/.


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## toast (Jul 3, 2009)

All I remember in my head was "YES J-PERM".


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## jsh33 (Jul 3, 2009)

Awesome test, I _Think_ :confused: I had "Double OLL, Second time around I got the *Chameleon*" with *A-perm*(B) 

It took Me a long time to remember, I was concentrating on the times.


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## SparkZer00 (Jul 3, 2009)

Option 2




.


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## TemurAmir (Jul 3, 2009)

I didn't figure out how to read the spoiler until i tried to quote the message to ask...  option 3


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## Harris Chan (Jul 3, 2009)

Option 4.

S-OLL and N perm (kept cursing as I was locking up on the N perm, so I remembered haha).


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## *LukeMayn* (Jul 3, 2009)

4
OLL: R U' F U R U' R' F' R
AUF: U2
PLL: V perm


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## Dene (Jul 4, 2009)

Johannes91 said:


> Same here, except s/col*ou*r cross/col*o*rs/.



Yikes >.<


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## Lucas Garron (Jul 4, 2009)

Stefan, do you think that doing a lot of reconstructions helps you remember things like this?
I think it might, but I already used to remember my BLD solves for hours even when I started (I've trained myself to forget faster, though).


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## eragg0 (Jul 4, 2009)

option 3  not bad OLL on that so i was able to remember that


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## Stefan (Jul 5, 2009)

Lucas Garron said:


> Stefan, do you think that doing a lot of reconstructions helps you remember things like this?


Don't know. You mean reconstructions like you said earlier, always trying to keep track of your PLLs in competition? I guess if you make that a habit it might cause you to pay attention and therefore remember. But I'm just speculating.

I also don't know whether it's desirable to remember. Maybe it's actually better if you can solve so unconsciously that you can't remember afterwards.


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## Stefan (Jul 5, 2009)

StefanPochmann said:


> I also don't know whether it's desirable to remember. Maybe it's actually better if you can solve so unconsciously that you can't remember afterwards.



On the other hand, I just checked the results again, and the fastest guys I know there (Harris Chan, Jason Baum, Dan Cohen) all remembered both OLL and PLL.


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## Crystl (Jul 5, 2009)

hmm, really weird, I forgot the OLL ?


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## Tortin (Jul 5, 2009)

I forgot the OLL. The only reason I remembered the PLL was because it was a U perm.


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## Deleted member 2864 (Jul 6, 2009)

very interesting, stefan. It seems most people remembered but I'm part of the group that only remembered PLL


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## Spaniard (Jul 6, 2009)

The 4, very easy OLL and PLL.


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## Stefan (Jul 6, 2009)

aznmortalx said:


> It seems most people remembered


Yep, looks that way. Although... they knew this was some kind of experiment, so their attention might've been higher than usual. They ought to be asked unexpectedly after some racing at a competition or so. But still I find the results here quite nice.


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## Mike Hughey (Jul 6, 2009)

Wow, I can't believe I'm one of just 5 who couldn't remember either OLL or PLL, out of almost 100.

I guess that just shows I have much worse-than-average memory skills, huh?


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## Escher (Jul 6, 2009)

I can almost always remember OLL and PLL, but I'm opposite cross colour neutral and I can never remember what colour cross I've done...


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## enigmahack (Jul 6, 2009)

I agree overall, because it's an "experiment" people tend to be a little more attentive to details. I also chose option 4. 

Typically speaking though, after my solves, I'll remember the OLL and PLL of the most recent solve but not further back ones. 

Interesting experiment Stefan!


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## Shamah02 (Jul 6, 2009)

Option 4.

OLL case: Small L
PLL case: G perm


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## Gunnar (Jul 6, 2009)

I answared option 1 

I had no idea which cases I got, but after a minute I got a vague feeling that I had an R-PLL. I tried the scramble again, and it was an R indeed. I can't say I recalled the OLL even when I walked through the solution a second time. Quite odd, I guess it shows how little of a thought process is really needed for a speedcuber to recognize a certain case and execute it's corresponding algorithm.


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## byu (Jul 6, 2009)

Mike Hughey said:


> Wow, I can't believe I'm one of just 5 who couldn't remember either OLL or PLL, out of almost 100.
> 
> I guess that just shows I have much worse-than-average memory skills, huh?



Anyone who has even attempted Multi-BLD 7x7x7 definitely doesn't have worse-than-average memory skills.


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## brunson (Jul 6, 2009)

Mike Hughey said:


> Wow, I can't believe I'm one of just 5 who couldn't remember either OLL or PLL, out of almost 100.
> 
> I guess that just shows I have much worse-than-average memory skills, huh?



The mind is the first thing to go, isn't it, Mike? ;-)


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## KConny (Jul 6, 2009)

I remember every OLL and PLL except for the second OLL. I got a PLL skip on the last one.


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## Mike Hughey (Jul 6, 2009)

brunson said:


> Mike Hughey said:
> 
> 
> > Wow, I can't believe I'm one of just 5 who couldn't remember either OLL or PLL, out of almost 100.
> ...



Yup. Or at least, that's what I always say whenever I forget something important (which happens way too often, I'm afraid).


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## Dene (Jul 7, 2009)

byu said:


> Mike Hughey said:
> 
> 
> > Wow, I can't believe I'm one of just 5 who couldn't remember either OLL or PLL, out of almost 100.
> ...



Wow... what a terrible argument.


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## ManuK (Jul 9, 2009)

Option 4.

But I had got a glimpse of the spoiler(read remember)..


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## zosomaniac (Jul 9, 2009)

option 4. i usually remember both.


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