# Should feet, magic and master magic be reintroduced?



## Joe Archibald (Nov 21, 2020)

I believe that the WCA has a lack of variety and reintroducing these events would help solve that. I don’t believe that every competition, (even big ones like national championships) should have to hold these events. I don’t see why they should have been removed in the first place. 
If there is even a small percentage of people that want to compete in these events why not let them. There is nothing bad about having more choices.


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## Sub1Hour (Nov 21, 2020)

Joe Archibald said:


> I believe that the WCA has a lack of variety and reintroducing these events would help solve that. I don’t believe that every competition, (even big ones like national championships) should have to hold these events. I don’t see why they should have been removed in the first place.
> If there is even a small percentage of people that want to compete in these events why not let them. There is nothing bad about having more choices.


Magic was removed because it's just speedstacking, feet was removed because the WCA board had 1 person that actively did it and the rest thought it was stupid. Keep magic in the dumpster, but feet was really unique so I think it should've stayed.


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## Joe Archibald (Nov 21, 2020)

Sub1Hour said:


> Magic was removed because it's just speedstacking, feet was removed because the WCA board had 1 person that actively did it and the rest thought it was stupid. Keep magic in the dumpster, but feet was really unique so I think it should've stayed.



I get that it’s slightly different to other events but that’s part of the attractiveness. The actual solve was unique and fun to do/practice so I don’t really see the need to get rid of it.


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## Sub1Hour (Nov 21, 2020)

Joe Archibald said:


> I get that it’s slightly different to other events but that’s part of the attractiveness. The actual solve was unique and fun to do/practice so I don’t really see the need to get rid of it.


I'm gonna assume that you are talking about magic. It's because it doesn't have the properties of regular events. It's the only event you can do by using the same moves every time, and it also doesn't really have a scramble. That basically takes it from puzzle to execution test. If you enjoy things like magic, then try speed stacking, it's essentially the same where you have to do an exact set of "moves" the same every time with extreme precision. If you would like to try an unofficial event that's unique, try FTO or 15puzzle.


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## Joe Archibald (Nov 21, 2020)

On a separate note I also think that FTO should be an event I think that we should try to have as many events as possible in the WCA


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## tx789 (Nov 21, 2020)

No


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## Joe Archibald (Nov 21, 2020)

tx789 said:


> No


why? Do you have any reasons?

I do understand why people might not want magic but why not feet?


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## Jam88 (Nov 21, 2020)

Joe Archibald said:


> why? Do you have any reasons?
> 
> I do understand why people might not want magic but why not feet?


It's just more events that people need to attempt if they want to be an all rounder. The enjoyment of events like feet is completely negated by the fact that you have to practise for ages to get fast at it.


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## Cubing Forever (Nov 21, 2020)

Feet - Yes
Magic - No
and on top of that, maybe Kilominx, Master pyra, mirror blocks and 2bld(lol)?


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## Kaneki Uchiha (Nov 21, 2020)

Feet should be added back


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## DNF_Cuber (Nov 21, 2020)

Cubing Forever said:


> Feet - Yes
> Magic - No
> and on top of that, maybe Kilominx, Master pyra, mirror blocks and 2bld(lol)?


Mirror blocks and 2bld would be redundant, one is just 3x3 and the other we already one look at high levels


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## Mike Hughey (Nov 21, 2020)

Actually, the most important reason that Magic was removed was because it was too hard to judge fairly. That problem has not changed, which is one reason why it will not be added back.


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## Nir1213 (Nov 21, 2020)

feet would be too hard for people and the cube would be stinky after solving it so no lol


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## DNF_Cuber (Nov 21, 2020)

Nir1213 said:


> feet would be too hard for people and the cube would be stinky after solving it so no lol


The people who do feet don't have any trouble with it. Heck I've done it four times and it takes me 5 minutes easily. The hygiene thing is one of the problems with feet though.


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## Nir1213 (Nov 21, 2020)

DNF_Cuber said:


> The people who do feet don't have any trouble with it. Heck I've done it four times and it takes me 5 minutes easily. The hygiene thing is one of the problems with feet though.


you cant do it if you have stiff feet tho. December is coming.

socks might help with the cold but your feet might become sweaty and the cube might slip from your feet.


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## rusty cuber (Nov 21, 2020)

i'm gonna have to agree with the majority here that feet magic and master magic all had their place but it was realized that magic and master magic are incredibly repetitive and there is nothing challenging about it, feet I mean I get it but still feel is kinda stupid


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## Sub1Hour (Nov 21, 2020)

rusty cuber said:


> feet I mean I get it but still feel is kinda stupid


And anyone that has never heard of cubing before would say that completing plastic children's toys as fast as possible would say it's kinda stupid. Just because something is "kinda stupid" to some people doesn't mean it should've been removed.


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## Nir1213 (Nov 21, 2020)

Sub1Hour said:


> And anyone that has never heard of cubing before would say that completing plastic children's toys as fast as possible would say it's kinda stupid. Just because something is "kinda stupid" to some people doesn't mean it should've been removed.


you have a point some people might like magic, or feet.
but i still feel feet is stupid (in my opinion.)


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## DNF_Cuber (Nov 21, 2020)

Nir1213 said:


> feet would be too hard for people and the cube would be stinky after solving it so no lol


socks make your toe movements useless. it would be like solving with stumps for hands



Nir1213 said:


> you have a point some people might like magic, or feet.
> but i still feel feet is stupid (in my opinion.)


magic is stupid since it is the same moves every time. Feet is not stupid


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## Deleted member 55877 (Nov 21, 2020)

Magic doesn't fit in with the other WCA events because it doesn't require any skill besides hand speed. No thinking or knowledge is required.
Feet is a bit better than magic, but I think it should still remain removed because it simply is unsanitary and also it takes up a lot of floor space.



Cubing Forever said:


> Feet - Yes
> Magic - No
> and on top of that, maybe Kilominx, Master pyra, mirror blocks and 2bld(lol)?


Kilominx and master pyra is good. Mirror blocks is bad because it's just a 3x3 shape mod, and 2bld is also bad because it's literally just 2x2 but without inspection. (compared to 3bld where you actually have to use a different solving method)


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## VIBE_ZT (Nov 21, 2020)

Joe Archibald said:


> On a separate note I also think that FTO should be an event I think that we should try to have as many events as possible in the WCA


Okay so.... I agree with the first half of this. I believe FTO is quite a unique solve, and uniqur puzzle in general. It would indeed add quite a bit to the WCA.

HOWEVER. Having as many events as possible is just... eh. Having like 40 events may be difficult, in the sense that championships would have to host them all. That's really tough.

There are definitely threads on both of these topics, so I invite you to search for them on this forum.



DNF_Cuber said:


> socks make your toe movements useless. it would be like solving with stumps for hands


I mean... I think 99% of people use their big toes only when doing 3x3WF. Unless you are doing some crazy toe-tricks and M2's with your middle toes, I'm unsure that any sort of turning would be anything less than two toes and a bunch of floor abuse.


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## DNF_Cuber (Nov 21, 2020)

VIBE_ZT said:


> I mean... I think 99% of people use their big toes only when doing 3x3WF. Unless you are doing some crazy toe-tricks and M2's with your middle toes, I'm unsure that any sort of turning would be anything less than two toes and a bunch of floor abuse.


I tried with socks it was impossible. I only use my big toes but that is hard


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## RiceMan_ (Nov 22, 2020)

I think feet should be reintruduced and idk really know what magic is (as an event) so... (and whats the difference between magic and master magic)


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## Nir1213 (Nov 22, 2020)

DNF_Cuber said:


> socks make your toe movements useless. it would be like solving with stumps for hands


but what about the cold??



hexacuber said:


> and 2bld is also bad because it's literally just 2x2 but without inspection. (compared to 3bld where you actually have to use a different solving method)


im sure @LukasCubes would LOVE to hear that (he has a competition for 2bld)

2bld shouldnt be that bad, maybe just like mediocre at least.


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## LukasCubes (Nov 22, 2020)

Nir1213 said:


> im sure @LukasCubes would LOVE to hear that (he has a competition for 2bld)
> 
> 2bld shouldnt be that bad, maybe just like mediocre at least.


i have a compitition with 2OH but i let people do it OH BLD


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## Humble Cuber (Nov 22, 2020)

Joe Archibald said:


> I believe that the WCA has a lack of variety and reintroducing these events would help solve that. I don’t believe that every competition, (even big ones like national championships) should have to hold these events. I don’t see why they should have been removed in the first place.
> If there is even a small percentage of people that want to compete in these events why not let them. There is nothing bad about having more choices.


I don't think magic or master magic should be brought back, but feet should be given another chance, I think it's a interesting event and different than all other events.


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## LukasCubes (Nov 22, 2020)

2OH needs to be a new event


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## Sub1Hour (Nov 22, 2020)

hexacuber said:


> but I think it should still remain removed because it simply is unsanitary


I get that feet smell bad, but other than that how is it more unsanitary than your hands? Think about all the things your feet touch throughout a competition, they only touch your shoes. Now think about all the things that your hand touch throughout a competition. Yeah, feet may be gross, but from a biological standpoint your hands pick up a much wider variety of germs throughout the day compared to your feet.


Nir1213 said:


> but what about the cold??


Article 7d+ of the WCA guidelines state that "The temperature of the competition area should be 21 to 25 degrees Celsius." That's 69.8 to 77 degrees Fahrenheit, so all competitions following these guidelines won't have this issue/


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## Nir1213 (Nov 22, 2020)

Sub1Hour said:


> I get that feet smell bad, but other than that how is it more unsanitary than your hands? Think about all the things your feet touch throughout a competition, they only touch your shoes. Now think about all the things that your hand touch throughout a competition. Yeah, feet may be gross, but from a biological standpoint your hands pick up a much wider variety of germs throughout the day compared to your feet.
> 93% of shoes have fecal matter in them. That is much dirtier than the hand thingy.





Sub1Hour said:


> Article 7d+ of the WCA guidelines state that "The temperature of the competition area should be 21 to 25 degrees Celsius." That's 69.8 to 77 degrees Fahrenheit, so all competitions following these guidelines won't have this issue/



Ok understandable, but feet is still gross.


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## VIBE_ZT (Nov 22, 2020)

Nir1213 said:


> im sure @LukasCubes would LOVE to hear that (he has a competition for 2bld)
> 
> 2bld shouldnt be that bad, maybe just like mediocre at least.


For higher-level 2x2 solvers, they 1-look the scramble. Meaning they plan out every move they need in inspection. Meaning that, while they are looking at the during solves, they don't need to.

Rami Sbahi actually made a video of this: 



where he did a 2x2 Ao5, but he put a blindfold on before he started the timer. And...it was pretty mych how he'd normally solve. Just layer, then EG alg. It's functionally the same as a regular solve with inspection, and for good 2x2 solvers, 2x2 Blindfolded would literally add nothing new.


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## Kit Clement (Nov 22, 2020)

Additionally, 2BLD would be impossible to regulate well with the requirement to hold the paper in front of the solver's face. For high level solvers, the solve would likely be over before the judge could react, opening the door to a lot of potential cheating, like doing the layer and recognizing or verifying the EG case before the paper comes up.


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## abunickabhi (Nov 22, 2020)

I would love if master magic is reintroduced. I started competing in 2013 just a year after master magic stopped being an official event.

The event that I badly want to be reintroduced is old-style MBLD. This event will be really cool, as the 1 hour limit for MBLD is sometime too tense for top level MBLD solvers.


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## kubnintadni (Nov 22, 2020)

I'd like feet.

What about Team Blind? It seems like another unique event which would be good.


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## VIBE_ZT (Nov 22, 2020)

kubnintadni said:


> I'd like feet.
> 
> What about Team Blind? It seems like another unique event which would be good.


Team BLD would be awesome! It would add something completely new, which is collaboration in an event! Cubing would be great if it had a team event


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## DNF_Cuber (Nov 22, 2020)

VIBE_ZT said:


> Team BLD would be awesome! It would add something completely new, which is collaboration in an event! Cubing would be great if it had a team event


It would be hard to practice at home though. I have seen kian do it on skype, though


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## Deleted member 54663 (Nov 23, 2020)

Tymon has also gotten good at team bld. It seems like a fun event, but not for lonely introverts like me


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## Tony Fisher (Nov 23, 2020)

They should do blindfold one foot magic.


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## qwr (Nov 23, 2020)

feet yes, magic / master magic no. 
feet is interesting because it emphasizes move count efficiency and very unusual dexterity.


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## Joe Archibald (Nov 23, 2020)

VIBE_ZT said:


> HOWEVER. Having as many events as possible is just... eh. Having like 40 events may be difficult, in the sense that championships would have to host them all. That's really tough.


I would say that for some new events that would be introduced should be at a second tier of events so they at official events and can be held at championships but would not be required


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## Roux Empress (Nov 23, 2020)

I think feet should be re introduced, why wat it Removed in the first place? I get not everyone liked it but the same and maybe for other reasons like the inefficientcy of holding the event. But the same goes with clock. Adding new events will be a whole new thing which I think will be really nice change imagine a new event that maybe people are fast with but we'll invent methods and tricks and everyone will have a fair chance to get a world record _MAYBE a new event could be added sometime which I guess many people would enjoy_


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## One Wheel (Nov 23, 2020)

I think we need a clear process for adding and removing events: 

- A non-binding poll (don't announce the results publicly, only to delegates and staff) of as many active WCA members as will respond to get a clear picture of the sense of the community rather than just a sense of the vocal segments of the community. 
- A 2/3 vote of delegates
- A 2/3 vote of the WRC.

This would provide a clear organizational bias toward keeping the event list the same. As it is the delegate poll for removing Feet was only 56 keep 58 remove: if 2 people changed their minds the result would be opposite. Requiring a 2/3 majority means that 1 or 2 people changing their minds would not change the overall sense of the body. 

The current (mostly) pause on competitions would provide an excellent opportunity to introduce this system, and to put it to the test by treating ALL current and former WCA events as though proposed for removal. My guess is that all current events would stay, since it would take a 2/3 vote of both delegates and the WRC to remove them. Feet would likely be very close to 50/50 and would therefore be added back. Other events like Magic, Master Magic, and Siamese Cube would probably remain off the list.


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## Nir1213 (Nov 23, 2020)

VIBE_ZT said:


> For higher-level 2x2 solvers, they 1-look the scramble. Meaning they plan out every move they need in inspection. Meaning that, while they are looking at the during solves, they don't need to.
> 
> Rami Sbahi actually made a video of this:
> 
> ...


oh ok so its useless.


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## abunickabhi (Dec 4, 2020)

I really want magic and master magic to be reintroduced. I want to compete in them and get good times, U' L S L' S2 L' S L U .


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## Silky (Dec 4, 2020)

SO I'm going to give my 2 cents on the matter. To preface, I complete understand the arguments why people would like to bring back the events being that they have a long history in the WCA and people felling nostalgia for the events. That being said, I think the WCA's decision to remove these event was 1000% justified. 

Magic and Master Magic: 
The history of these events go back to the heavy influence of Rubik's on the creation of the WCA. Almost all Rubik's puzzles were included: Siamese, UFO, and Magic/Master Magic. UFO and Siamese were removed and I don't think anyone misses them. Likewise, Magic/Master Magic don't really make sense to keep in the WCA. (1) It wasn't really a popular event, (2) it isn't a a puzzle ( the solution is always the same so it's really just a showcase of technical skill that isn't really that interesting. It's kinda like if we included 1x1, it's just seeing how fast to can do an arbitrary task ), and (3) the hardware wasn't good ( they literally would fall apart and you'd have to restring it with fish lines ) nor was it very accessible ( I don't think it was really being mass produced ). The WCA has clearly outgrown their ties with Rubik's so keeping this event has very few grounds.

Feet:
Feet is a bit of a different argument. It has a lot more value than Magic/Master Magic since it's non-arbitrary puzzle solving and isn't just a technical showcase. However, like magic, it wasn't a very popular event. Many people didn't do the event because they felt it was gross so I'm not going to include that since it's pretty subjective. The bigger justification for expulsion is that it adds no more value than other nxn events. Currently, 12/17 events are all nxn events which is kind of ridiculous. There is a complete over saturation of nxn events and many are both unpopular and don't really add any novelty that other events don't already provide. IMO 7x7, 4BLD, and 5BLD should be removed based on the former arguments. 7x7 adds nothing more than what 6x6 already provides, plus it's unpopular. The only really valid argument is that the hardware is better but 6x6 hardware is improving which makes it kind of moot. Likewise, 4/5BLD fall into a similar category.. unpopular and don't add value that 3BLD or MultiBLD don't already meet. The biggest thing though is that all of these events are clogging up the competitive events. I don't mind adding nxn events like team BLD since it maintains a lot of novelty but realistically if we want to add more nxn events we really need to remove redundant/unpopular ones. To add, keeping these events really prevents newer events from being held that would add variety, would attract more people, and become more popular.


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## ender9994 (Dec 4, 2020)

I never really got the sense that magic was unpopular. Taking a look at an example competition (US nationals 2010), nearly 50% of competitors participated in magic (though far less in master magic), which was higher than many other events. Judging difficulties seemed like the main issue with it. It also didn't help that it was often the first event of the day, so things were still being organized, and that people were anxious to start 3x3.


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## Kit Clement (Dec 4, 2020)

Silky said:


> Magic and Master Magic:
> The history of these events go back to the heavy influence of Rubik's on the creation of the WCA. Almost all Rubik's puzzles were included: Siamese, UFO, and Magic/Master Magic. UFO and Siamese were removed and I don't think anyone misses them. Likewise, Magic/Master Magic don't really make sense to keep in the WCA. (1) It wasn't really a popular event, (2) it isn't a a puzzle ( the solution is always the same so it's really just a showcase of technical skill that isn't really that interesting. It's kinda like if we included 1x1, it's just seeing how fast to can do an arbitrary task ), and (3) the hardware wasn't good ( they literally would fall apart and you'd have to restring it with fish lines ) nor was it very accessible ( I don't think it was really being mass produced ). The WCA has clearly outgrown their ties with Rubik's so keeping this event has very few grounds.



This interpretation of magic/master magic's removal is grossly incorrect.

The WCA was formed in 2004 for the purpose of having independently run competitions, not necessarily tied to Rubik's. There were many irregularities in the 2003 World's that was run by Rubik's (time formats, how scrambles were generated, allowed puzzles, etc.) that the core community wanted to establish autonomy and run more local events in a fairer and more organized way. While many of the "Rubik's" branded puzzles did persist because they were at that 2003 event, WCA was not completely friendly with Rubik's, and fought for puzzle autonomy when Rubik's wanted only their brand to be used at the world championships in 2005 and 2007. By no means did Rubik's have any influence on the creation of the WCA.
Magic was at the time a very popular event in terms of participation. By the time it was removed in 2012, 4928 competitors had a result in the event. For comparison, Pyraminx, a very popular event today, had 4390 competitors with a result by the end of 2012. Whether those competitors were actually enthused or excited for that event is another question (and overall, they probably weren't).
Rubik's Magic was being mass produced by Rubik's and still is today. (https://www.rubiks.com/en-us/rubik-s-magic.html)
While the triviality of the puzzle was one of the two main reasons it was removed, the far more important one that led to its removal is the incredible difficulty in judging legal timer starts and stops for such a fast event. The other two reasons you gave are just not relevant to the removal of Magic. (https://www.worldcubeassociation.org/archive/forum_topics/1013)
A couple other things that I'm not 100% sure are true, but:

Siamese cube has no ties to Rubik's, outside of a puzzle that was mass produced in the 1980s. The old WC 2003 results page doesn't tag the event with "Rubik's" in any way like it does for clock and magic. (http://www.speedcubing.com/events/wc2003/wc2003_results.html)
I'm not sure of any older WCA events that had UFO, nor was the event ever recognized by the WCA at any point (see old unofficial results database here: https://web.archive.org/web/20130613075233/http://www.speedcubing.com/results/)



Silky said:


> IMO 7x7, 4BLD, and 5BLD should be removed based on the former arguments. 7x7 adds nothing more than what 6x6 already provides, plus it's unpopular. The only really valid argument is that the hardware is better but 6x6 hardware is improving which makes it kind of moot. Likewise, 4/5BLD fall into a similar category.. unpopular and don't add value that 3BLD or MultiBLD don't already meet.



You really like to throw around the word "unpopular" without backing that up with any evidence. 7x7x7 is by no means unpopular. 4/5BLD have less participation for sure, but also have significant barriers to competing in the events. I get the argument that both 4/5BLD may be redundant, but the types of memory and execution used in those two events are significantly different then 3BLD or MBLD.


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## qwr (Dec 4, 2020)

You can chalk up so many people doing magic because it is so easy and involves no thinking. You learn one algorithm and you don't even need to inspect because it's always the same.

Feet has novelty in that it emphasizes fewer move solutions due to the low TPS. So it may be that a feet solver could use Petrus due to its low movecount. Yes it's a nxnxn event but it is totally unique. I think we should factor in spectator-friendliness and feet is really cool to see.


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## Silky (Dec 4, 2020)

Kit Clement said:


> This interpretation of magic/master magic's removal is grossly incorrect.
> 
> The WCA was formed in 2004 for the purpose of having independently run competitions, not necessarily tied to Rubik's. There were many irregularities in the 2003 World's that was run by Rubik's (time formats, how scrambles were generated, allowed puzzles, etc.) that the core community wanted to establish autonomy and run more local events in a fairer and more organized way. While many of the "Rubik's" branded puzzles did persist because they were at that 2003 event, WCA was not completely friendly with Rubik's, and fought for puzzle autonomy when Rubik's wanted only their brand to be used at the world championships in 2005 and 2007. By no means did Rubik's have any influence on the creation of the WCA.
> Magic was at the time a very popular event in terms of participation. By the time it was removed in 2012, 4928 competitors had a result in the event. For comparison, Pyraminx, a very popular event today, had 4390 competitors with a result by the end of 2012. Whether those competitors were actually enthused or excited for that event is another question (and overall, they probably weren't).
> ...


I learned today.


Kit Clement said:


> incredible difficulty in judging legal timer starts and stops for such a fast event


Totally forgot about this point.

To clarify about popularity I'm drawing from WCA stats on most competitors ( https://www.worldcubeassociation.org/results/statistics.php ). It's isn't strictly about how popular something is ( FMC isn't super popular for example ) but the combination of popularity and redundancy ( However, FMC is very novel/unique ). 7x7 is clearly less popular than 2x2-5x5 ( not sure about 6x6 due to hardware stuff ) AND it is redundant. It's not overall popularity but relative popularity. Yes 7x7 is not the least popular event but it is ( One of. Again not sure about 6x6 ) the least popular of the nxn events + it's the most redundant. Same with 4/5BLD. I can understand 4BLD but 5BLD doesn't really make sense to me.



> By no means did Rubik's have any influence on the creation of the WCA.



I'd partially disagree. Yes, rubik's in no way have direct influence in the WCA, but the WCA was built out of solving Rubik's puzzles competitively. The only non-Rubik's events were Square-1, Megaminx, and Pyraminx.


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## BenChristman1 (Dec 4, 2020)

Silky said:


> The only non-Rubik's events were Square-1, Megaminx, and Pyraminx.


I might be wrong, but didn’t Rubik’s manufacture all 3 of those puzzles back in the ‘80s?


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## VIBE_ZT (Dec 4, 2020)

Silky said:


> IMO 7x7, 4BLD, and 5BLD should be removed based on the former arguments. 7x7 adds nothing more than what 6x6 already provides, plus it's unpopular. The only really valid argument is that the hardware is better but 6x6 hardware is improving which makes it kind of moot. Likewise, 4/5BLD fall into a similar category.. unpopular and don't add value that 3BLD or MultiBLD don't already meet.



As someone that does every blind event (not well, I'll be honest, but still), 3x3 Blindfolded and 4x4 Blindfolded are... Very different. The bigBLD events are really an event of mental gymnastics and spatial awareness that 3x3BLD barely scratches the surface of. I feel that most people who do these events seek some more mental stimulation and investment in their solves than a quick event like (insert side event here) could ever offer. 

I'm honest surprised you didn't discount MBLD from your count as well, given the parameters with which you counted out the other events.

In my opinion, they have their place. Sure, they not be extremely spectator friendly, or have a high participation, but they aren't exactly hated, or an extreme burden on competitions. At many comps, the BigBLD events run alongside other events so that there isn't a huge chunk of time taken out of the comp for an unpopular event. Now, I won't claim to have knowledge on running comps, but I'm just saying. They have their place.


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## Tabe (Dec 4, 2020)

BenChristman1 said:


> I might be wrong, but didn’t Rubik’s manufacture all 3 of those puzzles back in the ‘80s?


No. Tomy manufactured the megaminx and pyraminx. I think they did the squan, too, but am not certain.


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## Silky (Dec 5, 2020)

VIBE_ZT said:


> As someone that does every blind event (not well, I'll be honest, but still), 3x3 Blindfolded and 4x4 Blindfolded are... Very different. The bigBLD events are really an event of mental gymnastics and spatial awareness that 3x3BLD barely scratches the surface of. I feel that most people who do these events seek some more mental stimulation and investment in their solves than a quick event like (insert side event here) could ever offer.
> 
> I'm honest surprised you didn't discount MBLD from your count as well, given the parameters with which you counted out the other events.
> 
> In my opinion, they have their place. Sure, they not be extremely spectator friendly, or have a high participation, but they aren't exactly hated, or an extreme burden on competitions. At many comps, the BigBLD events run alongside other events so that there isn't a huge chunk of time taken out of the comp for an unpopular event. Now, I won't claim to have knowledge on running comps, but I'm just saying. They have their place.


On the fence about 4BLD tbh. I just felt that MBLD achieves the 'mental gymnastics and spatial awareness of BigBLD' while being more unique than BigBLD. And tbh it isn't that I want to remove these events it's more the problem that the only way to include new events is to take out old ones due to logistic problems. I'd rather them all be included but it isn't considered realistic, unfortunately.


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## Sub1Hour (Dec 5, 2020)

Silky said:


> On the fence about 4BLD tbh. I just felt that MBLD achieves the 'mental gymnastics and spatial awareness of BigBLD' while being more unique than BigBLD. And tbh it isn't that I want to remove these events it's more the problem that the only way to include new events is to take out old ones due to logistic problems. I'd rather them all be included but it isn't considered realistic, unfortunately.


BigBLD has its place in the WCA. On MBLD attempts, you can make a few mistakes and still pull out a win. However, BigBLD has to be 100% prefect 100% of the time on every single part of the solve. I think that 5bld and 4bld should also coexist together, since 5BLD adds just enough pieces for it to be different, but not absolute chaos like 6bld+. It's a good equilibrium point that should be respected and kept in the WCA.


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## Deleted member 55877 (Dec 5, 2020)

I strongly believe that none of the current events should not be removed from the WCA. Every one of the current events are good in their own way.


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## Silky (Dec 7, 2020)

Sub1Hour said:


> BigBLD has its place in the WCA. On MBLD attempts, you can make a few mistakes and still pull out a win. However, BigBLD has to be 100% prefect 100% of the time on every single part of the solve. I think that 5bld and 4bld should also coexist together, since 5BLD adds just enough pieces for it to be different, but not absolute chaos like 6bld+. It's a good equilibrium point that should be respected and kept in the WCA.


I mean no disrespect. I think I've done a pretty poor job presenting my opinion here. But let's say that we added a few new events, FTO and Team BLD for example, which events do you think should be removed considering that every time adding events comes up the biggest logistical issue is that there isn't enough room to have more events.



One Wheel said:


> I think we need a clear process for adding and removing events:


I totally agree with this. I don't really know anything about the process of adding/removing events but I think more direct community input is never a bad thing.

On a final note:
I'm much more for adding events than for removing events but under the current structure adding events is dependent on removing ones. I think one solution to this problem is to stop trying to hold every event at a (major) competition which is always the arguments against adding more. I think holding world/national comps in a subgroup of events could work wonders. To be more specific take FMC 2019 for example where you're having a world comp for a specific event. Expand this idea to an only BLD competition or a non-nxn competition This would mean that you could include a lot more events but with less logistical strain.


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