# Should a beginner start with the best cube available?



## The Bloody Talon (Sep 20, 2011)

Should a beginner start with the best cube available?
I really don't know. I'm not a beginner but I don't know what would be my answer if someone will ask me.
What is your opinion? why?


----------



## michaelfivez (Sep 20, 2011)

I think they should:

1) You don't learn bad habbits that come from using a bad cube

2) You start to use fingertricks faster without even having to learn them

3) Because of 2, algorithms become muscle memory faster

4) It's more motivating because it looks more impressive when you do it fast and use fingertricks/ improve faster in the beginning

5) An often called anti-argument is that your movement will be less precise because you can cut corners. I don't agree with this because even if you develop beter corner cutting skills on a bad cube, after using a DIY for a while you will lose those skills anyway (look a how fast you can de-learn bad fingertricks). And after cubing a lot even on a DIY you will be more precise anyway

6) I started with a Guhong and had no problem improving (I average 20 sec now, not that good but still)


EDIT: and 7) look at how slowly people used to advance in 2006 or so and compare that with now when we have better cubes

8) Most DIY cost the same price (or cheaper) as sucky rubiks brand cubes


----------



## Chrisalead (Sep 20, 2011)

I don't see why they shouldn"t. The only "bad" thing I can imagine is going to fast during F2L thus not improving as fast as they can their lookahead. I'm currently averaging in the low 16 (for 50 cubes), and I often notice that if I turn slightly slower I immediatly gain 1s or 2 ! The problem is that I have difficulties forcing myself to turn slower to let my brain see the cube more efficiently.

But since we are talking about beginners I don't think it would really be a problem before they get sub-20 sub-25 times, and usually when you got such times you already bought a good cube !


----------



## Godmil (Sep 20, 2011)

Ah you beat me to it, I thought it was about time this topic had it's own thread.
I believe a beginner should start with a good cube for these reasons.
1. A smooth turning cube is easier to turn with your fingers, therefore you can start using 'proper technique' straight away, rather than learning and getting used to wristing, then having to unlearn it later on.
2. A good cube is less likely to lock up, lockups are frustrating, if you are new to cubing you're more likely to have fun, and stick with it, if you're not getting frustrated.
3. Hard to turn cubes are straining on tendons ... 'rubik's wrist' used to be a big thing, but I'm not hearing anyone talking about it now. You are much more prone to RSI and carpel tunnel syndrome from a poorly turning cube. (My personal experience here is that I really got into cubing in the early 2000's, but a month later it had greatly contributed to a crippling RSI that saw me unable to use a computer for a year, and about 7 years before I stopped getting pains. When I started cubing again last year it didn't take long with a storebought before I could start to feel the pains coming back on. But since switching to a F2/A5/Dayan I've never had any hints of pain even after long periods of cubing.
4. Great cubes are cheap, and last a long time, the best cubes cost the same or just a little more than the worst storebought. People who suggest you make a progression: storebought till 1min, then Ghosthand until 40, then F2 till 30, then GuHong, are just recommending people waste money on cubes that they wont get much use out of before having to switch.

---
And here are a few pre-emtive counterarguments:
1. "It's the cuber not the cube." - Yes it's mostly the cuber, but the cube does have a significant effect. There is noway anyone gets the same times on a crappy storebought as they could on a Dayan. People will surely post Felix getting a really fast time on a new storebought, but that's still probably 10% slower than he was on his Haiyan Memory at the time. If anything you'll see the most benefit from a good cube in terms of times earlier on. When I got my first DIY, from the very first solve I went from Averaging 2:30, to 1:15. And just last week after retiring my old GuHong and getting a Lubix ZhanChi my times went from 28s to 25s, pretty much instantly.

2. "I got sub-15 with a storebought." Nobody is saying you 'can't' get good on a storebought (particularly one that you've spent a great deal of time working in), but 'should' you? I'd hazard a guess you could have got quicker faster if you had a good cube from the start.

3. "Your turning accuracy will be better after using storeboughts." Yes, that's true, if you are forced to make each turn accurate to within say 5 degrees, then you'll be more accurate than someone who's used a cube that is tolerant of turns to within 15 degrees. But then since you'll inevitably be eventually moving onto a cube that it makes no noticeable difference if you're 15 degrees out, then does it really matter?

4. "Storeboughts force you to turn slowly, which helps with look ahead.", great... or you could just... I dunno, turn slowly. Slow smooth turning is something most of us will agree is important (sorry Jorghi), which is why we practice it. As eveyone says you have to practice to get better, you have to know what your weak points are and concentrate on them. I think it's not true to say that people will only practice smooth turning if they are 'forced' to by their cube. On the contrary the smoother the cube I find the nicer it is to turn slowly and so the easier it is to concentrate on your look ahead (I've never made so much progress on my F2L as when I got my new ZhanChi, which is just beautiful to turn gently and in a nice smooth flow).

5. "Beginners can't control a fast cube." People say that all the time. Here's what happens, the more you use a stiff cube, the more you rely on faces not turning unless you force them to. When you move to a faster cube you find that you were counting on the cube keeping itself in place, rather than you actually controlling it. Holding the cube properly so that you are in control of it is good technique, and not something you'll learn on a crappy cube. If you give a fast cube to a beginner early (I've done this and seen it with my friends) you get used to it very quickly, and you'll not be learning bad habits. 

---

Some of the main reasons people don't want cubers to start with good cubes is, that they themselves either 1. didn't get a good cube until they were pretty fast, and think that what is best for them is best for everyone. 2. can't afford the latest cubes, so argue that people slower than them shouldn't have them either (Do people remember all the vitriol last year when beginners were found to be using Haiyan Memories (then the best cube, but quite expensive) "He shouldn't be using a Memory, he's not even sub-50!" - remember that one kid who was trying to scam/steal his classmate's Memory, because he couldn't afford his own and was much faster/'more deserving of it')

That's all I can think of for now, but I'm sure more will come to me... as I'm sure you'll have noticed this is a subject I get quite passionate about


----------



## HelpCube (Sep 20, 2011)

Yay, i get to be the contradictor 

I'm gonna use Breadan Vallance as an example. He started out with a rubik's brand and I believe his 1st or 2nd cube after that was a type c. He used a type c for a long time, making his turning accuracy much better. The next cube he used is the guhong, which he tightened so much it feels like a rock, but he turns more accurately than most and never pops. Why not use bad cubes to start, get your turning accuracy good, then go to a better cube and adjust it to your personal preference?


----------



## Kirjava (Sep 20, 2011)

HelpCube said:


> I'm gonna use Breadan Vallance as an example. He started out with a rubik's brand


 
not by choice


----------



## Mudkip (Sep 20, 2011)

This may sound rediculous to some, but begginers should really learn some respect.
They won't appreciate it when their 2 minuite solve goes down to I don't know, 1:30?
But they will appreciate something like a 30 second solve going down to a 25.
Honestly, a well lubed rubik's brand isn't bad at all, for begginers..
One advantage is they don't know of anything better.
With my first cube, I had no idea it turned slowly. It didn't cross my mind that it could be faster.
*Changes to sarcastic old man voice* They won't know the difference!


----------



## Godmil (Sep 20, 2011)

Mudkip said:


> They won't appreciate it when their 2 minuite solve goes down to I don't know, 1:30?
> ...
> With my first cube, I had no idea it turned slowly. It didn't cross my mind that it could be faster.



I greatly appreciated it when my 2:30 went down to 1:15, it was very inspiring.
Do you think it was an advantage or disadvantage to have a slow cube?


----------



## izovire (Sep 20, 2011)

Absolutely!

1. You'll save money because you will likely upgrade from a lower quality cube to a better one anyway. 
2. I agree with previous posts... you will improve quickly like a lot of newer cubers. Don't give in to the corner cutting and too fast myths. 
3. I suggest getting the Dayan Lingyun II. It is my main cube and I also sell them.

(I know this was originally posted by a pro... but it's directed to those that are new.)


----------



## mrCage (Sep 20, 2011)

A beginner should start with a "cheapo" cube and purchase better ones only when the need arises. For 3x3x3 at least. For larger cubes it makes more sense to buy a good one early on


----------



## Bapao (Sep 20, 2011)

I totally agree with Godmil on this (nice summary btw). 

I actually tried to go with the general flow just lately and used a DaYan I as my main for 3 odd weeks. 

So basically I went from using a LingYun to using the DaYan I. Big step back at first. After about a week I got better at using the DaYan I and was actually cooing about it here on the forums as if it were the best cube ever. 

So a week or two ago, I got my LingYun vII and wanted to break it in a bit before going back to using the DaYan I. I absolutely hated the LingYun vII at first but couldn't pin down why. I tried comparing it to my 6 other DaYan cubes II though to 5 to get a better picture. It was then that I realized that the DaYan I had been forcing me to be more precise in terms of turning, but had also brought me out of synch with the rest of my DaYan kit. So I put the DaYan I back on the shelf and it has taken me a week to get used to my "faster" cubes again.

I don't feel as if my time with the DaYan I has taught me anything to make me progress to be honest though. Although the cube was a good companion at the time, I'll give it that.


----------



## tozies24 (Sep 20, 2011)

I do not think that a beginner should _start_ on the best cube available. I do think that they should upgrade once they understand the things that they need to do to become a better cuber. 

Example: You wouldn't teach someone on a really really good cube because that would spoil them into thinking that every cube was good. Yes, it would result in some bad habits like wristing and stuff, but after that person understands finger tricks and understands different things, then they could go to a good cube. 

From personal experience, I had a transformers cube that I got down to about 50 seconds with using beginners F2L and 2 look OLL. Then I got a storebought and lubed it and got down to about 25-30 seconds. Once I got my Haiyan Memory (11 months into cubing), I realized how amazing it was and how lucky I was to be able to get a cube that good. I've been using that same cube for 6 months now and I still really like it.

People should have to go through some struggling to succeed I suppose, but I think that _start_ in this case is a little bit ambiguous. Start in my opinion could be a couple weeks to a month or two.


----------



## jrb (Sep 20, 2011)

Nothing wrong with starting on a good cube.


----------



## chrissyD (Sep 20, 2011)

start with what you want nobody's gonna shoot you if you start with a good cube.


----------



## Yuxuibbs (Sep 20, 2011)

most people start with a rubik's brand anyway.... but people used my cube and they're like "this thing's so fast, u cheat cuz it turns so good" other people just don't use a rubik's brand at all and only use my "fast" cubes....

and i had a rubik's brand until i was getting almost sub 45 averages then got the alpha 1 and now i can sub 20 it. its holding me back now....can't get sub 20 averages of 5, just used a friend's maru 3x3 yesterday and got sub 14 average of 50.... at least im gonna get a zhanchi in a couple weeks


----------



## Akuma (Sep 20, 2011)

I think it's fair enough to say that Rubik - the company that made the original design is worth giving them the $17 that the Rubiks Brand cube costs. Just for novelty sake.

Truth be told though, beginners shouldn't get a better cube until they learn to like speedcubing and wanting to pursue their ambition of becoming faster at it.

You'd never buy a brand new shiny pair of basketball shoes to a friend if you're not even sure he's even gonna like basketball.


----------



## Bapao (Sep 20, 2011)

Akuma said:


> I think it's fair enough to say that Rubik - the company that made the original design is worth giving them the $17 that the Rubiks Brand cube costs. Just for novelty sake.
> 
> Truth be told though, beginners shouldn't get a better cube until they learn to like speedcubing and wanting to pursue their ambition of becoming faster at it.
> 
> *You'd never buy a brand new shiny pair of basketball shoes to a friend if you're not even sure he's even gonna like basketball*.


 
Maybe, but if the better pair of shoes only cost a few dollars more, why not?


----------



## Yuxuibbs (Sep 20, 2011)

Bapao said:


> Maybe, but if the better pair of shoes only cost a few dollars more, why not?


 
actually the better pair of shoes would cost less.... zhanchi is like 13 bucks from certain websites with free shipping. rubik's brand that i got was almost 20 bucks


----------



## Bapao (Sep 20, 2011)

Yuxuibbs said:


> actually the better pair of shoes would cost less.... zhanchi is like 13 bucks from certain websites with free shipping. rubik's brand that i got was almost 20 bucks


 
My bad. Rubiks brand 3x3x3s only cost 13$ over here. But are you talking about 13 bucks for a ZC including shipping?


----------



## Yuxuibbs (Sep 20, 2011)

Bapao said:


> My bad. Rubiks brand 3x3x3s only cost 13$ over here. But are you talking about 13 bucks for a ZC including shipping?


 
http://www.pickegg.com/wholesale/dayan5-zhanchi-3x3x3-magic-cube-puzzle-game-toy.html
89 cents over but close enough


----------



## Bapao (Sep 20, 2011)

Yuxuibbs said:


> http://www.pickegg.com/wholesale/dayan5-zhanchi-3x3x3-magic-cube-puzzle-game-toy.html
> 89 cents over but close enough


 
20$ is a hefty price for a Rubiks 3x3x3. Wonder why they're so expensive where you're situated...


----------



## Yuxuibbs (Sep 20, 2011)

Bapao said:


> 20$ is a hefty price for a Rubiks 3x3x3. Wonder why they're so expensive where you're situated...


 
i found one that was that much in a store. the wal mart here sells it for 11 bucks and walgreens is like 15 bucks, guess i found the overpriced one


----------



## Shamankian (Sep 20, 2011)

Certain shops in Denmark sells them for... wait for it... around 27 dollars... Ye, that's right. Damn expensive. So not every country has the same price for the cube


----------



## Bapao (Sep 20, 2011)

Shamankian said:


> Certain shops in Denmark sells them for... wait for it... around 27 dollars... Ye, that's right. Damn expensive. So not every country has the same price for the cube


 
Sucks. Still wondering they're so expensive else where though. I can't recall the economy in Denmark being that good/bad...


----------



## insane569 (Sep 20, 2011)

it says best cube available
i wouldnt go straight to a guhong or dayan
i would recommend a GH 1 or 2 but 45 degree corner cutting isnt needed at the early stages neither is crazy turn speed
GHs are like storeboughts with better turning and a little more corner cutting so i would recommend that for a begginer and not a zhanchi or guhong


----------



## Bapao (Sep 20, 2011)

insane569 said:


> it says best cube available
> i wouldnt go straight to a guhong or dayan
> i would recommend a GH 1 or 2 but 45 degree corner cutting isnt needed at the early stages neither is crazy turn speed
> GHs are like storeboughts with better turning and a little more corner cutting so i would recommend that for a begginer and not a zhanchi or guhong


 
Yeah, although Guitar Hero is better than Guitar Hero II IMO. Tsss...Beginners, just get a ZhanChi *right now*. And then practice with it until you no longer have a finger print. You'll be fine. Trust me.


----------



## aaronb (Sep 20, 2011)

WWFD? 

What I think is, people will eventually move to a good cube, right? Well when they move to the fast cube, they will start to develop the fast turning/low-look-ahead habbits, if they are not used to the speed and smoothness. In the end, I think it is a matter of people trying to slow down and look-ahed wether they start with a good cube, or gradually move in to one.

Edit: Basically my point is, it is up to the cuber to slow down and look-ahead. If using a slow cube helps them, then they can go ahead and use it. But I still think it is up to the cuber to force themselves to slow down.


----------



## HelpCube (Sep 20, 2011)

aaronb said:


> WWFD?
> 
> What I think is, people will eventually move to a good cube, right? Well when they move to the fast cube, they will start to develop the fast turning/low-look-ahead habbits, if they are not used to the speed and smoothness. In the end, I think it is a matter of people trying to slow down and look-ahed wether they start with a good cube, or gradually move in to one.


 
^^This. I mean seriously. Why do batters in baseball use a donut when practicing? Because its harder, and it makes it super easy when they go to a bat without a donut on it.


----------



## uberCuber (Sep 20, 2011)

I still strongly believe that my lookahead is as good as it currently is because of not using the fastest possible cube I can get. This applies to both 3x3 and bigcubes.


----------



## TheCubeMaster5000 (Sep 20, 2011)

I started with a Rubik's Brand when I was a beginner. And in case you forgot how to correctly spell it; B-E-G-I-N-N-E-R. Then I got a type idunno, then a type c, then a Haiyan, and then a Guhong and a LingYun.

I WISH that I would have had a LingYun all along. I should have never had all of those other cubes. The fact that I had so many different cubes is probably one of the reasons why it took me so long to get sub-30 AND sub-20.
Get the best quality cube you can get your hands on.
If you're serious about cubing then you can still have good lookahaead, accuracy, and execution with a good cube.


----------



## insane569 (Sep 20, 2011)

it seems people want everyone to learn how to solve using a dayan
most learn how to on a storebought and you can easily get a sub 1 minute solve 
afteryou sub 1 i would recommend you get another cube and then learn finger tricks along with lookahead
and remember dayans arent the only cube out there there is also alpha GHOST HAND and alot more brands so dont go 
"dayan zhanchi is amazing get one"(person averages 1:30) cause it might not make a difference until you ACTUALLY need corner cutting and U4 abilities
its like learning how to drive in a buggati veyron instead of a toyota corolla 
you will want to turn quick but then you will not learn your lookahead


----------



## aaronb (Sep 20, 2011)

insane569 said:


> its like learning how to drive in a buggati veyron instead of a toyota corolla
> you will want to turn quick but then you will not learn your lookahead


 
If you step into a Bugatti Veyron as your first car, it is your responsibility to slow down, and not try to go stupidly fast. You should know that going as fast as possible in your first good car, isn't going to help you become a better driving; but it is okay to have the stupidly fast car, as long as you gradually get used to the speed. This is what I meant by, it is up to the cuber to slow down and look-ahead.


----------



## Godmil (Sep 20, 2011)

For the comments about how you should start on poor cubes so that when you switch you appreciate it more... Would you also suggest beginners learn their OLL and PLL algs from Fridrich's site, so that when they learn better algs later they'll appreciate them more?


----------



## aaronb (Sep 20, 2011)

Godmil said:


> For the comments about how you should start on poor cubes so that when you switch you appreciate it more... Would you also suggest beginners learn their OLL and PLL algs from Fridrich's site, so that when they learn better algs later they'll appreciate them more?


 
But, if you start with the best algorithms, you become sloppy, and develop bad fingertricks. You should start with Jessica Fridrich's algorithms, so you can understand them better.


----------



## CubeLTD (Sep 20, 2011)

aaronb said:


> But, if you start with the best algorithms, you become sloppy, and develop bad fingertricks. You should start with Jessica Fridrich's algorithms, so you can understand them better.



Make no sense.


----------



## aaronb (Sep 20, 2011)

CubeLTD said:


> Make no sense.


 
I was being sarcastic. I was agreeing with Godmil, saying starting with the best cubes is like starting with the best algorithms.


----------



## Edward (Sep 21, 2011)

The Bloody Talon said:


> Should a beginner start with the best cube....


 
IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT CUBE YOU START WITH


----------



## The Bloody Talon (Sep 21, 2011)

Edward said:


> IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT CUBE YOU START WITH


 
why me? :confused:


----------



## buelercuber (Sep 21, 2011)

You should learn how to turn a cube really accurate, because i know that my rubiks brand is much tighter then my lunhui, so if your fingers are used to the looseness, you aren't a good cuber. cubing isn't about speed, it's about accuracy and precision.

so to answer your question, no i think that new cubers shouldn't use the newest cube.


----------



## The Bloody Talon (Sep 21, 2011)

buelercuber said:


> You should learn how to turn a cube really accurate, because i know that my rubiks brand is much tighter then my lunhui, so if your fingers are used to the looseness, you aren't a good cuber. cubing isn't about speed, it's about accuracy and precision.
> 
> so to answer your question, no i think that new cubers shouldn't use the newest cube.


 
i agree that we should learn to turn the cube accurately.. :tu
but why would someone practice with a tighter cube if in the end, he/she will use a "loose" cube?
and.. I think "speed" is still important in speedcubing.


----------



## Yuxuibbs (Sep 21, 2011)

i have been using my rubik's brand as my main cuz all my other 3x3s broke and i get the same times with the rubik's brand as my other speed cube.... almost sub 20 averages of 12, rare averages under 19....


----------



## Phlippieskezer (Sep 21, 2011)

I'm very indifferent to the matter.

// Not voting.

I honestly don't think it's necessary to start with an 'OMG WOW THIS IS AMAZING' quality cube, because often times the newbie, if he continues to cube, won't appreciate the quality of the corner cutting, speed, etc. However, I think it's also silly to start with a horrible cube, because it can build bad habits (especially with fingertricks), and when you switch, it might be difficult to control the new cube (plus, you're pretty much wasting money).


----------



## HelpCube (Sep 21, 2011)

The Bloody Talon said:


> i agree that we should learn to turn the cube accurately.. :tu
> but why would someone practice with a tighter cube if in the end, he/she will use a "loose" cube?
> and.. I think "speed" is still important in speedcubing.


 
I'll go back to my baseball batter's example. That's like saying why would someone swing with a donut if in the end, he/she will use a bat which is lighter?
So that its easier. Same thing applies to cubing. Sure, if you practice with the most amazing cube in the world you'll get pretty good with it, but if you practice with something worse first, using the most amazing cube will seem so easy.


----------



## The Bloody Talon (Sep 21, 2011)

HelpCube said:


> I'll go back to my baseball batter's example. That's like saying why would someone swing with a donut if in the end, he/she will use a bat which is lighter?
> So that its easier. Same thing applies to cubing. Sure, if you practice with the most amazing cube in the world you'll get pretty good with it, but if you practice with something worse first, using the most amazing cube will seem so easy.



oh okay.. I see your point. :tu
but does it really work?
I mean, if I would use a tight cube now and get used to it, would it increase my TPS if I use my zhanchi?
and if it really works, maybe it will be a good training for me.


----------



## somerandomkidmike (Sep 21, 2011)

I think if people have a cube that's too fast, they will develop sloppy fingertricks. Your turning will be unstable if you use the fastest cube. That might not make sense, but I'll put it this way. When you're learning fingertricks, it's good to have a little resistance, because then it forces you to not screw up. Then you can get the fingertricks into your muscle memory. However, you can still use a dayan cube. Just lube it excessively with lubix/differential oil/shock oil so that it's slower. Then you can clean out some of the lube after.


----------



## maggotcuber (Sep 21, 2011)

I say no. If anyone here plays an instrument, beginners should NEVER have a professional level instrument because theres no need for a student it. They would buy lower end but not necessary bad, instruments so that they can learn proper technique and care for the instrument.
I feel that the same applies to cubing, there's no need for a beginner to use the beat cube simply because the r just starting out, its not going to make a difference if they have a zanchi or a storebought (honestly they would get a between time with the storebought imo) once you begin to improve and the "lesser" cube isn't suitable then you can upgrade to a more "professional" grade cube.


----------



## somerandomkidmike (Sep 21, 2011)

maggotcuber said:


> I say no. If anyone here plays an instrument, beginners should NEVER have a professional level instrument because theres no need for a student it. They would buy lower end but not necessary bad, instruments so that they can learn proper technique and care for the instrument.
> I feel that the same applies to cubing, there's no need for a beginner to use the beat cube simply because the r just starting out, its not going to make a difference if they have a zanchi or a storebought (honestly they would get a between time with the storebought imo) once you begin to improve and the "lesser" cube isn't suitable then you can upgrade to a more "professional" grade cube.


 
A good instrument will make the difference between whether a person sticks with it or not. Also, instruments are a bad comparison, because a professional instrument can be ten fold more expensive than a beginner instrument. Look at a squier affinity strat vs an American Special. The Squier affinity is about $250 in a package with an amp. The American Special is $1500. I'm not comparing it to a squier bullet, or classic vibe, because those are actually good. XD 

However, guitarists have it easy. You can buy a decent student violin for $500 dollars, but you'd be lucky to find a custom professional violin for $5000. A rubik's cube here is about $12. I can buy a Dayan Guhong for $14 or less. That's like a beginner buying a Squier Classic vibe strat for $300, rather than a Squier Affinity for $250. It's definitely worth it, because the Classic Vibe is WAY better, and I won't have to replace it once I get better. I'll just change the things I do to it.


----------



## 5BLD (Sep 21, 2011)

Well I believe they shouldn't.

One if my friends I have been teaching has a Lingyun, which my other friend got him from hong kong (he got me a zhanchi too  )
But now, when he picks up my type c, he says 'urgh it's so stiff how can you use this thing'... But if he started with say a storebought, he will appreciate corner cutting and speed.

And I'm one of those as Jorghi says, look-ahead freaks... And I practice on a type c, but do averages with my zhanchi. Why? Well I get a few lock ups with my type c but I'm kinda used to it.
When I switch to my zhanchi, I get absolutely no lockups and am a second or so faster.
If I practiced on my zhanchi from the beginning I would be a sloppy turner, and not be able to use other cubes comfortably.


----------



## 30secondsolver (Sep 21, 2011)

who gives a ****! everyone is entitled to buy whatever cube they want. nuff said.


----------



## The Bloody Talon (Sep 21, 2011)

30secondsolver said:


> who gives a ****! everyone is entitled to buy whatever cube they want. nuff said.



:tu
you are a genius


----------



## The Bloody Talon (Sep 21, 2011)

5BLD said:


> If I practiced on my zhanchi from the beginning I would be a sloppy turner, and not be able to use other cubes comfortably.


maybe.
but will you use other cubes if it doesn't suit your turning style?


----------



## Godmil (Sep 21, 2011)

buelercuber said:


> so if your fingers are used to the looseness, you aren't a good cuber. cubing isn't about speed, it's about accuracy and precision.



I'm searching and searching the WCA site and I just can't find any records for accuracy and precision. Do you have any links?
If you're saying you can only get fast with good accuracy, do you think that's something that can only be learned on a tight cube? I'd say if it does make a significant difference to speed, then it should also make a difference on a loose cube (it would have to be or it wouldn't be a factor) in which case you should also be able to learn to improve on a loose cube.



HelpCube said:


> I'll go back to my baseball batter's example. That's like saying why would someone swing with a donut if in the end, he/she will use a bat which is lighter?



But that's solely to build up strength, you don't need to do that in cubing.
If you swap between fast and slow cubes you instantly feel the difference, but you quickly get used to it. Does that few seconds (or couple of minutes) of going "ooh this feels easier to turn" actually improve your cubing? I'm not convinced there is any benefit from deliberately getting used to a cube other than your main one.



maggotcuber said:


> beginners should NEVER have a professional level instrument because theres no need for a student it.


Somerandommike already picked up on this, but if a great sounding instrument that really inspired you to play it, and a rubbish piece of **** that was unconformable to play and sounded awful cost exactly the same price, would you really still agree with that statement? 'cause that's the only way your analogy works with cubes.



somerandomkidmike said:


> ...Your turning will be unstable if you use the fastest cube.... ...Then you can get the fingertricks into your muscle memory.


But it could be easier for a beginner to learn how to hold the cube so that he's got good control of it before developing the muscle memory. If you had developed all your muscle memory on a really stiff cube, then didn't realise until you went onto a fast cube that you were really relying on the cube to hold itself together, then you'll find yourself having to completely relearn your grip and algs so that you're not accidental turning unintentional faces (that's exactly what happened to me).


----------



## Litz (Sep 21, 2011)

It's ok to start with "the best cube available". 

People are comparing this to other things (such as buying instruments) but it's way different. When you start a new activity, you aren't usually recommended the best material not because you can't handle it, but because the "best" material usually costs a lot more than a "good" one and you're just starting out so you still don't know if you'll stick with it or just quit after a bit.

With cubing though, this doesn't happen. Generally speaking, the "best" cubes are actually cheaper than, say, Rubik's brand cubes so there's no reason not to get a better one. For example, my most expensive 3x3 was my first cube (Rubik's brand) and it's by far the worst cube I have.


----------



## CRO (Sep 21, 2011)

I started with Rubik's brand from the 80s, which was pretty bad. I got down to 45-50 secs with it, and after switching to F2, it took me a long time to get used to it and develop totally new fingertricks.

So, yes, I think begginers should start with the best cube they can get.


----------



## DavidWoner (Sep 21, 2011)

I've seen the word "appreciate" pop up numerous times in this thread. So what? You sound like bitter old men "THEY DON'T APPRECIATE HOW GOOD THEY HAVE IT!" Who cares? These are the arguments I've seen against starting with a good cube:

1. They won't appreciate it.
- What does this even mean? People say it like it's so important, but I feel like I'm being generous by even calling it an argument. "I want to train for a marathon." "Okay but you have to wear high heels for your first 6 months of training so you can learn to appreciate running shoes." See how stupid it sounds?

2. It costs more.
-Hardly, especially since you are saying they should spend money on a cube that they _know_ they will stop using just to spend the same amount on the best cube in a few months. Dayans are only a few dollars more than a storebought, and cubes like Ghost Hands are less than half the price!

3. They will be sloppy turners.
-No, people are only sloppy when they switch from a bad cube to a good one and aren't used to the speed. I recently taught someone who has only ever used good cubes of mine, and the progress he made with fingertricks in just one day of learning was phenomenal. 4 years down the road and I am still unlearning bad habits developed from using a Rubik's Brand. I would NEVER subject a new cuber to something like that.


----------



## somerandomkidmike (Sep 21, 2011)

Godmil said:


> But it could be easier for a beginner to learn how to hold the cube so that he's got good control of it before developing the muscle memory. If you had developed all your muscle memory on a really stiff cube, then didn't realise until you went onto a fast cube that you were really relying on the cube to hold itself together, then you'll find yourself having to completely relearn your grip and algs so that you're not accidental turning unintentional faces (that's exactly what happened to me).



That's why you use a stable cube that turns fairly well, but still has a little resistance. This COULD be a dayan guhong if you wanted. Again, if you put more lubix/differential oil/shock oil in it, there will be more resistance.

Edit: I just said they shouldn't use the FASTEST cube.



maggotcuber said:


> @ somerandomkidmike
> I was referring more to the quality of the instrument instead of the price, I play trumpet and I would want to give a beginner my trumpet simply due to their bad habits, etc.


 
It's not relevant if they're the same price. I'd let a beginner use a Gibson '59 Les Paul if it was the same price to replace that as it was to replace a plywood guitar.


----------



## The Bloody Talon (Sep 22, 2011)

5BLD said:


> Time to stop rambling and let people contradict my points.


 
well, you are not just rambling, you have points in there. :tu 

as for the topic, 
In my opinion, most people here use better cubes not because of they think that they are ready for that cube,
but because of the availability of the better cubes


----------



## Kirjava (Sep 22, 2011)

Gotta love the woner.

I've seen people say that you should use Storeboughts first before moving onto cubes like Type A etc.

I've seen people say that you should use cubes like Type A first before moving onto Dayan.

If this misconception about what cubes to use continues and people keep giving this bad advice, I'm sure people will recommend using a Dayan cube first before moving onto (insert next greatest advancement in cubing). This makes no sense.

It's like saying that Python is a bad first programming language to learn and everyone should start with punch cards.


----------



## Erik (Sep 22, 2011)

This thread seriously made me worried about the general knowledge of cubers on this forum. Especially since those without knowledge apparently *think they are smart enough to give new cubers advice that doesn't make any sense whatsoever*. The result: more cubers thinking they know what's right (when they dont!)

- would you rather start running a marathon on flip flops of $100 than on good running shoes of $100?
- would you rather kiss the ugly, dumb, annoying girl than the hot, funny one, who can also solve a cube?
- would you rather get a $200 cell phone with which you can only make calls or a $200 cell phone that can makes pictures, take videos, send sms and browse the internet with?
- would you rather be stupid than smart?
- would you rather buy a new Ferrari for $10.000 than an old shabby Lada without ABS and airbags for the same price?

Why do you reckon people get to sub-20 within weeks nowadays? Because the cubes have improved since 1982!


----------



## Godmil (Sep 22, 2011)

Kirjava said:


> It's like saying that Python is a bad first programming language to learn and everyone should start with punch cards.


 
But you wont appreciate Python unless you've used punch cards. And it's really really important that you properly appreciate it.


----------



## The Bloody Talon (Sep 22, 2011)

Godmil said:


> But you wont appreciate Python unless you've used punch cards. And it's really really important that you properly appreciate it.


 
should we use abacus before using a scientific calculator?

argh! maybe we should stop comparing things to support our opinions. 

I totally agree with kirjava and erik, 
although the "think they are smart enough to give new cubers advice that doesn't make any sense whatsoever" is applicable to everybody, even to me.


----------



## Godmil (Sep 22, 2011)

Or....
Say 1) a beginner starts with a rubiks brand and in 8 weeks gets down to 35 seconds, then buys a ZhanChi and can immediatly get 30 second.
2) A beginner starts with a ZhanChi, and not being held back by the cube or developing poor fingertricks gets to 30 seconds in 6 weeks.

It's easy to make hypothetical situations to support an opinion, but do you have any reason why a speed boost at the start is worse than one later on? Do you disagree with the idea that it's bad to waste time developing muscle memory to handle a cube that you're not going to be using very long, that you'll then need to spend time relearning your technique on a better cube (which you'll inevitably switch to)?


----------



## Erik (Sep 22, 2011)

Mudkip said:


> Let's place a begginer at 2 minuites.
> The begginer can easily get down to around 40 seconds or less with a rubik's brand.
> Just after that point, improving starts getting reaaal slow. At around 30 seconds, you can get a speedcube and reduce your times by around 5-10 seconds.
> 
> ...


 
This makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. A beginner using a Rubiks brand will only develop bad habits and bad fingertricks because of the bad cube. This takes LOTS of time to get rid of once going to a better cube. Starting with a better cube will result in a good technique from the start causing the cuber to improve faster -> the cuber has more fun and is able to develop his skills much better AND saves 10$ on a Rubiks brand.

Besides, do you have any proof on what you are saying? So far you only made a hypothetical scenario based on... nobody knows.


----------



## Erik (Sep 22, 2011)

Exactly, there ARE good Rubiks cubes (it's always fun to find the good ones at Mosaic building), but the chance you get one is not very great. So why take the risk?? Besides, I believe that the faster you get the more you notice the little differences in cubes. I have a good F2 and a good V-5 and stuff (sub-10 in competition), but still I wouldn't dare doing some fingertricks on those I can do on a GuHong. Probably you are not effected by such a thing (at least not affected as much) when times are a bit slower.

P.s. a good Rubiks brand is never as good as a GuHong of course


----------



## tozies24 (Sep 22, 2011)

Muesli said:


> Start out with whatever is easiest to get (Rubik's Brands by far) and see if the hobby takes hold.


 
This is what happens to people who start out. The beginners don't even know about the Guhongs, Zhanchis, Lingyuns, etc. At two minutes or even one minute, you are sitting there thinking, how in the heck do I solve this is 10 seconds like other cubers do (pros)? Then either they give up on speedcubing or they should get a speed cube if they want to pursue.


----------



## Godmil (Sep 22, 2011)

tozies24 said:


> The beginners don't even know about the Guhongs, Zhanchis, Lingyuns, etc.



That's true, you can't make people who've only just discovered cubing know what cube they should get... but when they make the leap and come onto the forums asking about cubes I don't think people should be saying stuff like "Stick with your storebought until you're sub-50." etc.


----------



## tozies24 (Sep 22, 2011)

The problem with this thread is that a beginner could mean a couple different things. They could be just starting out, they could have just joined the forums, or they could be someone who has been on the forums but does not really understand cubing that much. 



Godmil said:


> That's true, you can't make people who've only just discovered cubing know what cube they should get... but when they make the leap and come onto the forums asking about cubes I don't think people should be saying stuff like "Stick with your storebought until you're sub-50." etc.



There is a reason that beginners (people who just started out) have a storebought. They don't know anything better. After they find an interest, I say go ahead with buying whatever cube. But then they aren't a beginner if they are looking into a new cube.


----------



## BC1997 (Sep 22, 2011)

Erik said:


> Exactly, there ARE good Rubiks cubes (it's always fun to find the good ones at Mosaic building), but the chance you get one is not very great. So why take the risk?? Besides, I believe that the faster you get the more you notice the little differences in cubes. I have a good F2 and a good V-5 and stuff (sub-10 in competition), but still I wouldn't dare doing some fingertricks on those I can do on a GuHong. Probably you are not effected by such a thing (at least not affected as much) when times are a bit slower.
> 
> P.s. a good Rubiks brand is never as good as a GuHong of course



This is basicaly a good anwser to the whole thread!


----------



## Axiys (Sep 22, 2011)

I think any beginner should If they can , should start with a good cube.
I started with a F II and I NEVER got a time above 2:45.
I started out with good finger-tricks and never had to unlearn any bad habits.
And my friends Rubik's brand cost him like $15 - 20! My F II was like $8.
I have a friend that quit cubing because he spent 15 bucks on a crappy cube, And he could never see how he could get fast using a bad cube, and he didn't have any money to buy a good cube, so he quit. 
I have NEVER thought that getting a good cube did anything but good to my cubing


----------



## nickcolley (Sep 22, 2011)

My non-cuber (or non-experienced maybe) friends are always asking to use my speedcubes because they are more enjoyable to use. Don't listen to this nonsense about using 'crappy' cubes. Speedcubing is a fun hobby and you want to go fast, just start with the best cube you can get your hands on and you'll enjoy it much more.


----------



## insane569 (Sep 23, 2011)

honestly, this thread has no meaning.
are we arguing that a non cuber should learn how to solve on a good cube or are we talking about a newb cuber that has never had a sub 1:30 but knows the basic dan brown method. if this is a non cuber learning go with a storebought. my friend bought a ghost hand II and he didnt even bother to learn a new method(he used DB method). but if its a newb cuber then go ahead and get a guhong if you really wanna get fast times or continue to cube. i have another friend that is currently learning how to solve a cube and hes really interested so im teaching him on my cubes instead of a storebought. so again, if there is an interest in speedcubing then go ahead and get a DIY but if your just about to learn and dont know if you wanna be a speedcuber then get a storebought or you will just waste money on a good cube for no reason


----------



## The Bloody Talon (Sep 23, 2011)

insane569 said:


> honestly, this thread has no meaning.


 
well, I slightly agree with that. I created this thread because I see many cubers saying that beginners shouldn't use great cubes. Which I don't know if that is right or wrong. But still, according to the poll, it's a close fight. 



insane569 said:


> are we arguing that a non cuber should learn how to solve on a good cube or are we talking about a newb cuber that has never had a sub 1:30 but knows the basic dan brown method. if this is a non cuber learning go with a storebought. my friend bought a ghost hand II and he didnt even bother to learn a new method(he used DB method). but if its a newb cuber then go ahead and get a guhong if you really wanna get fast times or continue to cube. i have another friend that is currently learning how to solve a cube and hes really interested so im teaching him on my cubes instead of a storebought. so again, if there is an interest in speedcubing then go ahead and get a DIY but if your just about to learn and dont know if you wanna be a speedcuber then get a storebought or you will just waste money on a good cube for no reason



nah, we should assume that the other factors are the same for all. Let us just talk about the cube.


----------



## Ranzha (Sep 23, 2011)

Personally, if I were to teach someone how to cube, I wouldn't teach them on a storebought. In the same way, I wouldn't give them a DY5 and have them gogogo.
It doesn't matter overall what one starts with. It's the transition between cubes (if there is any; I've been through my fair share) until their future main which is important. They develop their own cubing style, learn how finger tricks work, etc.
I also don't particularly like it when people go to the forums and ask questions about what the fastest method is before trying any ("spoonfeeding", some call it). I experimented a lot (much to some users' chagrin), but through my continually asking "stupid questions" (since I literally had no idea what I was doing, trying out this "speedsolving" thing) and getting answers either here on the forums or in the IRC channel, I learned a thing or two about the cube. Not to mention I read up on pages of useful advice when cubing (http://jmbaum.110mb.com/f2l.htm, for one) which helped considerably.
Tl;dr: Don't be afraid to screw around with what cube you choose as your first cube. I'd consider trying out all sorts of types to get what's best for the cuber, not what everyone else says is best overall. Also, experiment with your cube! It's not all about timing. Look around--there are TONS of resources.


----------



## Edward (Sep 23, 2011)

The Bloody Talon said:


> why me? :confused:


 
Because....
Oh and I was serious. I don't think it matters
Though I like how Erik put it. Why start with crap when you can get gold for the same price and effects.


----------



## iseldoff (Sep 23, 2011)

I started a thred similar to this called cube progression just to see what cube ppl started out with and what they ended up with and most if not all say they started with a RUBIK's brand cube. So if there here at this site and researching speed cubing then most likely they already have a rubiks brand cube. But if not and a bEginner should ask me I'd say get the best cube they can find. Honestly what's all this garbage about appreciating your speed cube more. Who the hell cares about what I appreciate more does it matter if I still get good times? Also this argument about accuracy what does it matter how accurate I am if the cube I use all the time doesn't require that accuracy?why do I need accuracy if my cube cuts more then a whole cubie? And just because you start out on a slower/rubiks brand cube does not mean youll be more accurate, i started on a rubiks brand cube and found when i went to a better faster cube i had a problem with over turning because i was used to applying more force to turn the cube so i had to learn to take it easy and not do that, even though when i got the new cube my time still went down considerably immeditatly giving another point to who the heck needs accuracy.That is a perfect exsample of "bad habits" learned from a rubiks cube. As well i dident learn proper fingertricking because of the major difference in the force needed to turn the face.Also the whole comparing cubes to other things does not make any sence. With most things the better the prop the more expensive it is so it is a good idea to start out with something cheep just incase they don't like the hobby or what ever it is they didn't waist a hole lot of money on something they will never use, this does not apply to speedcubeing because most of the time if not all of the the time the better cube will be cheeper then the RUBIK's brand. And the comparison of the baseball bat using a donut makes o sence as well they only reason they do that is to build up the muscle in there are so that without it they can swing faster, there is no reason to do that with cubing because it doesn't take a lot of muscle to turn a cube properly. 
So in conclusion it IS a good idea for beginners to get the best cube possible if not for anything else then because when you do your times are only limited by your ability, which forces you to look at that ability and make corrections consciously, forcing you to learn the proper way to turn the cube instead of just getting that ability because that what your used to as well as I really don't see what getting used to the RUBIK's brand cube would do anything at all good for your cubing in the future. Every cube is different and takes some time to "get used to". If your used to using a RUBIK's brand then you might not perform well on a zhanchi but then again if you used to a zhanchi then you might not perform well on a RUBIK's brand. Like I said all cubes are different.

So beginners go ahead and buy the better cheeper cube! Rather then wast your money on a piece of crap RUBIK's brand cube that you'll end up never using anyway. Now if you want to be a collector then of corse get a RUBIK's brand cube just for the nostalgia of it.


----------



## stoic (Sep 23, 2011)

Buy the best cube you can and learn to love it!
BTW, if we're advising people not to buy fast cubes until they reach some mythical goalpost (or learn to "appreciate"), are they allowed to lube or not...?


----------



## cubernya (Sep 23, 2011)

I started with a DianSheng (no, I never had a storebought to speedsolve, only pictocubes!)


----------



## Cheese11 (Sep 24, 2011)

iseldoff said:


> I started a thred similar to this called cube progression just to see what cube ppl started out with and what they ended up with and most if not all say they started with a RUBIK's brand cube. So if there here at this site and researching speed cubing then most likely they already have a rubiks brand cube. But if not and a bEginner should ask me I'd say get the best cube they can find. Honestly what's all this garbage about appreciating your speed cube more. Who the hell cares about what I appreciate more does it matter if I still get good times? Also this argument about accuracy what does it matter how accurate I am if the cube I use all the time doesn't require that accuracy?why do I need accuracy if my cube cuts more then a whole cubie? And just because you start out on a slower/rubiks brand cube does not mean youll be more accurate, i started on a rubiks brand cube and found when i went to a better faster cube i had a problem with over turning because i was used to applying more force to turn the cube so i had to learn to take it easy and not do that, even though when i got the new cube my time still went down considerably immeditatly giving another point to who the heck needs accuracy.That is a perfect exsample of "bad habits" learned from a rubiks cube. As well i dident learn proper fingertricking because of the major difference in the force needed to turn the face.Also the whole comparing cubes to other things does not make any sence. With most things the better the prop the more expensive it is so it is a good idea to start out with something cheep just incase they don't like the hobby or what ever it is they didn't waist a hole lot of money on something they will never use, this does not apply to speedcubeing because most of the time if not all of the the time the better cube will be cheeper then the RUBIK's brand. And the comparison of the baseball bat using a donut makes o sence as well they only reason they do that is to build up the muscle in there are so that without it they can swing faster, there is no reason to do that with cubing because it doesn't take a lot of muscle to turn a cube properly.
> So in conclusion it IS a good idea for beginners to get the best cube possible if not for anything else then because when you do your times are only limited by your ability, which forces you to look at that ability and make corrections consciously, forcing you to learn the proper way to turn the cube instead of just getting that ability because that what your used to as well as I really don't see what getting used to the RUBIK's brand cube would do anything at all good for your cubing in the future. Every cube is different and takes some time to "get used to". If your used to using a RUBIK's brand then you might not perform well on a zhanchi but then again if you used to a zhanchi then you might not perform well on a RUBIK's brand. Like I said all cubes are different.
> 
> So beginners go ahead and buy the better cheeper cube! Rather then wast your money on a piece of crap RUBIK's brand cube that you'll end up never using anyway. Now if you want to be a collector then of corse get a RUBIK's brand cube just for the nostalgia of it.


 
...Calm down


----------



## Bapao (Sep 24, 2011)

I can appreciate that many members might think that using a good cube is something you should earn by reaching a certain (albeit undefined) level, but still...accuracy is something you can learn and practice with any cube. 

The Mf8 Legend 3x3x3 demands a very high amount of accuracy for it to be of any use as a main speed cube for most people, but it's still the fastest and most effortless turner in terms of 3x3x3s. It would take considerably more time and work to master a Legend than it would to master a GuHong IMO. But why burden yourself with the handicap if you may never attain that kind of accuracy? There's a good point behind why one should start with a less forgiving cube, but in the long run, it doesn't really change significantly much later on down the line. At least for the average-joe cuber that isn't aiming to invest years of practice and one that doesn't have their sights set on beating world records or such.

I think we're still at the point where we have those that are saying "go for it, it doesn't really matter" and those that are stating "you can't handle a good cube yet, whereas I can, because I'm better/more experienced than you".

That's the whole reason behind why I experimented the base of this dispute on myself with an "inferior" cube. I wanted to see if there was a noticeable effect. I don't feel that the experiment produced any conclusive results, so it hasn't change my mind on the matter.


----------



## DavidWoner (Sep 26, 2011)

Turning super accurately isn't really a good thing. You should take advantage of all the corner-cutting your cube has to offer. If I am doing U' R and I corner cut at 30 degrees, then I have eliminated the last 1/3 of the U' turn. Therefore I should be able to perform U' R in 1/6 less time than if I hadn't corner cut. Pushing your cube to its limits take time to get used to, which is another reason beginners should start with a good cube.


----------



## iseldoff (Sep 27, 2011)

DavidWoner said:


> Turning super accurately isn't really a good thing. You should take advantage of all the corner-cutting your cube has to offer. If I am doing U' R and I corner cut at 30 degrees, then I have eliminated the last 1/3 of the U' turn. Therefore I should be able to perform U' R in 1/6 less time than if I hadn't corner cut. Pushing your cube to its limits take time to get used to, which is another reason beginners should start with a good cube.


 Very good point!


----------



## iseldoff (Oct 5, 2011)

Bump.


----------



## Cubetastic (Oct 5, 2011)

If you have a really horrible cube than sure you should upgrade, but most rubiks brand cubes if you play with them for a bit even without lube can allow for some fingertricks


----------



## pi.cubed (Oct 5, 2011)

I think it is best to save the advantages of getting a faster cube for when you need them.
Most people will improve at least slightly when they move from say, a Rubik's brand to a specially designed speedcube. 
If you move onto a Guhong, for example, when you are averaging 1 minute you may go down to 50 seconds. But if you had kept practising for another week or two, you would have got to 50 seconds anyway.
IMHO you should save this boost until you reach a barrier and are stuck for a while- you can then just buy a better cube and get past the block easily.


----------



## Godmil (Oct 5, 2011)

pi.cubed said:


> If you move onto a Guhong, for example, when you are averaging 1 minute you may go down to 50 seconds. But if you had kept practising for another week or two, you would have got to 50 seconds anyway.



But if you change cube *and* practice for another week or two, you'll be below 50.



pi.cubed said:


> IMHO you should save this boost until you reach a barrier and are stuck for a while- you can then just buy a better cube and get past the block easily.



Just to be clear here, when people are talking about getting a 'boost' from moving onto a new cube, what they're meaning is, their old cube is holding them back, and by removing that barrier you get to the speed you're capable of.
I don't think people should have their cube being a significant limiting factor.


----------



## pi.cubed (Oct 5, 2011)

Godmil said:


> pi.cubed said:
> 
> 
> > IMHO you should save this boost until you reach a barrier and are stuck for a while- you can then just buy a better cube and get past the block easily.
> ...


 
Yeh, that's certainly true. You should change your cube before the cube itself becomes the problem. 
But most people will reach a reasonable block in their times _before_ they get to the stage of the cube itself holding them back. For example,a Rubik's storebought is capable of sub-20 time (and faster), but some people, for whatever reason, will get stuck at 25 seconds. Getting a new cube will instantly improve their times by a few seconds, even though the original problem was not the old cube. This is because with their current techinique, they can turn at a faster tps on a F2, for example, than a Rubik's brand cube. Their technique may be 'worthy' of 2tps. However, on an F2, their technique gives them 2.5tps. Their new cube instantly lowers their times by a few seconds with very little (if any) work, even though their older cube allows them just as fast speeds with just a bit of extra work on turning speed/technique.
My point is that this easy, labour-free improvement should be saved for when you are stuck, even if the problem is not related to the current cube (and if it is related to the cube, by all means buy a better one!). 

I think this explains a bit better... I'm not very good at getting ideas from my brain into writing effectively.

Thanks.


----------



## Godmil (Oct 5, 2011)

If you're saying someone is automatically faster on a new/better cube, but it wasn't the old cube that was holding them back, then what does account for the time difference?

I'm suggesting an old/bad cube is a limiting factor on your speed. Not to say that a cube is only capable of a certain speed, rather resistance, lack of corner cutting and lockups will slow you down by say 10% regardless of what your actual times are.


----------



## Florian (Oct 10, 2011)

DavidWoner said:


> Turning super accurately isn't really a good thing. You should take advantage of all the corner-cutting your cube has to offer. If I am doing U' R and I corner cut at 30 degrees, then I have eliminated the last 1/3 of the U' turn. Therefore I should be able to perform U' R in 1/6 less time than if I hadn't corner cut. Pushing your cube to its limits take time to get used to, which is another reason beginners should start with a good cube.


 
When you cut the corner at 30° your turn is slower then a super accrutate turn


----------



## DaKrazedKyubizt (Oct 10, 2011)

There's a reason why there's a thread that talks about beginner cubes. There's also a reason many people don't start beginners on the best cube available. 

Sheng'en FII all they way for beginner cubes. I start most people on those just because they're cheaper than storeboughts (barring shipping), the quality of the cube makes it a bargain for the price, and even though it locks up sometimes, it's still good enough for the purposes of the beginner. Plus, you don't know if that beginner is going to drop cubing altogether at some point and decide never to pick it up again, and that would make buying such an awesome cube, like a Dayan, a waste of money. Let the beginner decide whether or not they want a really good professional-level cube or whatnot after they've had a good taste of speedcubing to decide whether or not they like the activity, but start them off with something relatively small, like the FII, just to keep them from gathering distaste for speedcubing from using an often-impossible-to-turn storebought cube. We want to add invite more people into the cubing community, but we don't want to hamper their development either by giving them something too fast. That's why the FII and other cubes of similar stature make a nice compromise that fits both needs very well.

EDIT: Now, if you were going to start a beginner on ONE of the best cubes available, I'd go with an unmodded Dayan Lunhui with torpedoes. I have two of them, one with torpedoes and one without, but both cubes seem to be ridiculously sturdy and extremely forgiving, perfect for a beginner.

And if you already know that the person is actually going to be getting into speedcubing and not dropping it for a long time, then sure, why not? Go buy them the best cube available. Just make sure it's very sturdy and very forgiving.


----------



## Kirjava (Oct 10, 2011)

DaKrazedKyubizt said:


> that would make buying such an awesome cube, like a Dayan, a waste of money


 
They aren't expensive.


----------



## DaKrazedKyubizt (Oct 10, 2011)

Kirjava said:


> They aren't expensive.



I know, but i'm stingy. My parents have other things to pay for, like bills and my college tuition. We can't afford anything that's more expensive than necessary. I don't know about other people, but if I can save money, why not? I would think some others would agree. And chances are, if they're really going to get into speedcubing, they'll eventually buy more than one cube, so it doesn't necessarily mean they'll be wasting money by going for something decent but cheap. But that would get into theoretical/philosophical debates about whether or not we can predict the future of the cubes we buy by the cubes we start with as a beginner, lol.


----------



## HelpCube (Oct 10, 2011)

I've said this many times, but I'll say this again. Why do batters in baseball use a donut before they go up to bat? So that the lighter bat is easier to swing and feels effortless compared to the bat with the donut on it. Doesn't this apply to cubes?

I also heard someone say that this is purely for strength, but if you know anything about baseball you know swinging a heavy bat for 30 seconds isn't really strength training. Just makes you used to something harder to use than what you will actually use.


----------



## Kirjava (Oct 10, 2011)

DaKrazedKyubizt - Dayan cubes are just as cheap as any other brand.



HelpCube said:


> Doesn't this apply to cubes?.


 
No one practises on a Rubik's brand before doing official solves on a better cube.


----------



## DaKrazedKyubizt (Oct 10, 2011)

Kirjava said:


> DaKrazedKyubizt - Dayan cubes are just as cheap as any other brand.



I usually see Dayans priced around $10-16 depending on the type. Sheng'ens are consistently around $8. Technically, that's cheaper.

And again, I said I'm stingy.

EDIT: Idk, maybe I'm using the wrong sites. If you see cheaper Dayans, you tell me. (That wasn't an argument, I'm being totally serious about that. I like cheap cubes.)


----------



## Kirjava (Oct 10, 2011)

Just because you're stingy doesn't mean every single new cuber should use an inferior cube for the sake of a quid. You even suggested ShengEn, which is more than double the cost of other cubes you can get.

We want an answer that applies to everyone, not just people wanting to save as much money as they can.


----------



## DaKrazedKyubizt (Oct 10, 2011)

Kirjava said:


> Just because you're stingy doesn't mean every single new cuber should use an inferior cube for the sake of a quid. You even suggested ShengEn, which is more than double the cost of other cubes you can get.
> 
> We want an answer that applies to everyone, not just people wanting to save as much money as they can.



It's still just my opinion, it's not the final verdict, so there's no need to say things like that. I didn't mean it to say that "every single new cuber should use an inferior cube for the sake of a quid".

Besides, who's the "We" in "We want an answer that applies to everyone"? Not everybody in reading this thread would agree with you that my comment was stupid (or useless, or whatever adjective with a negative connotation you were implying to describe my comment), but I think it is clear that, at the least, you have that POV. Hey, someone might find my comment useful. Or maybe you're right and everyone will agree with you, and then i'll end up looking like another one of the cubers who everyone thinks is stupid. Who knows? I sure don't, because the future is not 100% predictable. But I do know that it's kind of hard to generate an answer that applies to everyone. Different people have different demands, and price is often a big demand, but so is quality, and I just think the Sheng'en FII is a decent compromise between the two. That was my two cents, and my two cents is obviously pretty worthless, or at least to you it is, so I guess I'll try to make a more useful comment next time. I was just trying to help.

If there's other cubes that you think would be more suitable as a compromise, please state them. I'd like to know for my own personal benefit so that I can help teach others. I honestly don't know much about what cubes are in what shops at what prices, and I often buy cubes for beginners, just to make the speedcubing and the community dedicated to it look a bit more appealing/inviting/welcoming.


----------



## Kirjava (Oct 10, 2011)

The question is assuming that no compromise is required and the beginner has a selection of any cube.

No need to write a paragraph about how I've upset you or whatever the hell I did. You gave your opinion and I gave my opinion on it. Please don't say that I have attacked you when I have not, it's childish.


----------



## Olji (Oct 10, 2011)

When I buy a cube for someone I always let them do the choice, I tell them the pros and cons of various cubes I have, usually I let them try them, from Dayans to good cheapos for 3-4$.
From that the choice is theirs, most of the time they have jumped on the Guhong(They all picked stickerless since they don't care about competitions yet), I had one who bought a GH-II, but now he is thinking about upgrading to a Dayan.

One of the Guhong owners is casual, he don't care about times at all, while one has just started and is asking me for some advice from time to time, another one is considering getting a stickered, so maybe he got his eyes up for competitions...
If you buy an F-II you'll probably have to buy stickers also, which will increase the price a little. (but not much at all if you buy stickers at the same time or from a site with free shipping.)

Dayan is great for casual cubing too, and if they quit then they can simply sell it, since it's a rather popular brand today.


----------



## DaKrazedKyubizt (Oct 10, 2011)

Kirjava said:


> The question is assuming that no compromise is required and the beginner has a selection of any cube.
> 
> No need to write a paragraph about how I've upset you or whatever the hell I did. You gave your opinion and I gave my opinion on it. Please don't say that I have attacked you when I have not, it's childish.



Oh, now that's a much clearer question. If that's the case, then. I'd say forget Sheng'en FII, go Dayan LunHui. Maybe another Dayan would be better though. They're all pretty awesome.

But seriously, can you tell me of some other cheaper cubes? I actually need to know. I teach a lot of people.

EDIT: Gosh darn it, I hate typing responses to anything. I always have to be so careful with words to avoid an argument. It's so much easier to express opinions properly in IRL. So many useless arguments stemming from my own typed arguments could be avoided if I said them IRL. Typing makes me sound stupid and childish 99% of the time (unless I sound like that in IRL too and don't know it, lol). Facial expression and tone of voice does so much for an argument. Without them, you have to triple-check for so many things (i.e. do I sound aggressive, do I sound calm and clear-minded, do I sound stupid, do I sound smart, do I sound like I'm actually trying to help, etc.).

EDIT2: And then you have assume things about what the other person is saying, and then you say the wrong thing in response, and then.... yeah, you get the picture.


----------



## Kirjava (Oct 10, 2011)

Mini DS is cheap.

Just go to lightake (or anywhere) and select price lowest to highest on the cubes category. It's not rocket surgery.


----------



## DaKrazedKyubizt (Oct 10, 2011)

Oljibe said:


> When I buy a cube for someone I always let them do the choice, I tell them the pros and cons of various cubes I have, usually I let them try them, from Dayans to good cheapos for 3-4$.
> From that the choice is theirs, most of the time they have jumped on the Guhong(They all picked stickerless since they don't care about competitions yet), I had one who bought a GH-II, but now he is thinking about upgrading to a Dayan.
> 
> One of the Guhong owners is casual, he don't care about times at all, while one has just started and is asking me for some advice from time to time, another one is considering getting a stickered, so maybe he got his eyes up for competitions...
> ...


 
Good point. Didn't think about that.



Kirjava said:


> Mini DS is cheap.
> 
> Just go to lightake (or anywhere) and select price lowest to highest on the cubes category. It's not rocket surgery.


 
I just don't shop too often. And I'm kinda lazy 

But thanks!


----------



## Cheese11 (Oct 12, 2011)

DaKrazedKyubizt said:


> I just don't shop too often. And I'm kinda lazy
> 
> But thanks!


 
It takes like 3 seconds to do that. And I'm pree sure I'm the lazyest person ever. When I walk into class, my Korean teacher says "Ohhh, here come lazy boy!".


----------



## Bapao (Jan 12, 2012)

*Should beginners use "beginner" cubes?*

Greetings, 

I realize that this topic has been discussed numerous times in the past, but I would like to see a discussion on the matter held in a low noise environment. IMO, previous threads led to battles of personal belief as opposed to leading to a possible conclusion. 

My main concerns are health related. The store bought Rubiks brand 3x3x3 that I used for the first few months of my cubing endeavors almost put a halt to them altogether. I was suffering from serious pain and discomfort that made me contemplate giving up my newly found hobby. 

For my part, I would like to see the following points discussed: 

- Is it easier for an experienced cuber to get accustomed to "fast" cubes? 

- Does using a stiff/locky cube help beginners learn turning accuracy? 

- Does using a "fast" cube as a beginning cuber promote bad cubing habits? 

Please share your opinions. 

Regards, 

Holger.


----------



## Muesli (Jan 12, 2012)

Define "Beginner cube".


----------



## Rpotts (Jan 12, 2012)

No, I would argue that a cuber should use a good cube as soon as possible, there's no reason to build bad habits of wrist turning and hard/forceful turning on a Rubik's brand before switching to a good cube. That doesn't mean that the best cube for a beginner is a Zhanchi, but it very well may be. Some beginner's may get better times with slightly slower cubes since they may be a little easier to control/not pop (such as the FII or A3f or Guhong perhaps.) That being said, I'd advocate getting an excellent cube sooner, rather than later. Might as well get used to them now, rather than spending months perfecting your turning on a cube that you will eventually "out-grow" or want to trade up from.


----------



## Bapao (Jan 12, 2012)

Muesli said:


> Define "Beginner cube".


 
The store bought Rubiks brand comes to mind, but the term is hard to pin down. I've often read members post that any cube that isn't considered to be one the best cubes at the time (lets call them inferior due to popular belief) are deemed "beginner cubes".


----------



## Muesli (Jan 12, 2012)

Bapao said:


> The store bought Rubiks brand comes to mind, but the term is hard to pin down. I've often read members post that any cube that isn't considered to be one the best cubes at the time (lets call them inferior due to popular belief) are deemed "beginner cubes".


 
Then the term is ill-defined and I don't think we should use it. I'd prefer we use "Worse cubes", and in which case I definitely disagree.


----------



## Bapao (Jan 12, 2012)

Muesli said:


> *Then the term is ill-defined and I don't think we should use it*. I'd prefer we use "Worse cubes", and in which case I definitely disagree.


 
I agree. What are your thoughts on the phrase/term "fast cube"?


----------



## Muesli (Jan 12, 2012)

Bapao said:


> I agree. What are your thoughts on the phrase/term "fast cube"?


 
Subjective. Some people prefer smoother cubes, some people prefer crispy cubes. Who's to say which is faster?


----------



## Kirjava (Jan 12, 2012)

Muesli said:


> Subjective. Some people prefer smoother cubes, some people prefer crispy cubes. Who's to say which is faster?


 
Let us use general consensus and stop being pedantic.

Dayan Guhong > Rubik's Brand

'fast cube' is not a term that requires a strict definition.


----------



## Kirjava (Jan 12, 2012)

Bapao said:


> - Is it easier for an experienced cuber to get accustomed to "fast" cubes?



Probably not. It's likely easier to switch when you're slower as you're not extremely accustomed to a specific cube after thousands of solves.



Bapao said:


> - Does using a stiff/locky cube help beginners learn turning accuracy?



Probably not. It will just taint their turning style negatively.



Bapao said:


> - Does using a "fast" cube as a beginning cuber promote bad cubing habits?



No. Opposite is true. It's even in this site's FAQ


----------



## Muesli (Jan 12, 2012)

Kirjava said:


> Let us use general consensus and stop being pedantic.
> 
> Dayan Guhong > Rubik's Brand
> 
> 'fast cube' is not a term that requires a strict definition.



I was going to put that in my original post anyway, but shmeh.


----------



## Jackason13524 (Aug 8, 2013)

*Dayan 5 Zanchi as a beginning cube.*

My cousin just started cubing (he hasn't even memorized the beginner's method) and he ordered the Dayan 5 Zanchi because his Rubik's brand cube was really slow. I've never owned a Zanchi, but some people say they are not good for beginners. Is this true? Should he order another cube just in case he has problems with the Zanshi.


----------



## PeelingStickers (Aug 8, 2013)

No, the zhanchi is a very good cube. I don't see the point in step up cubes becuase he'd have to adjust to the zhanchi anyway when he gets it.


----------



## cubesonfire (Aug 8, 2013)

i have a kinda mixed answer. i believe that beginners should start with a good cube, but not a really good one like a zhanchi or guhong. ghost hands or maru should be perfect for a beginner.


----------



## CubezUBR (Aug 16, 2013)

what about the people who buy stickerless zhanchis when they are sub 2 mins and then those people who use a rubiks till they are sub 40 then get a zhanchi (example). from what i have seen the people who wait turn out faster and better cubers. sorry i just had to post my opinion


----------



## aceofspades98 (Aug 16, 2013)

CubezUBR said:


> what about the people who buy stickerless zhanchis when they are sub 2 mins and then those people who use a rubiks till they are sub 40 then get a zhanchi (example). from what i have seen the people who wait turn out faster and better cubers. sorry i just had to post my opinion




5BLD got sub 15 with a Rubiks brand. I think though people should get a wind or aurora because beginners don't have a lot of expeirience lubricating the core of cubes so they would be easier to work with without creating bad habits a rubiks brand would but still being fast.


----------



## pedrocube (Feb 6, 2015)

*First speed cube for a beginner?*

Hi, I'm new in cubing (just few weeks) and here in the forum.
I cube just for fun and I'm using the basic layers method. However I would like to get best solve-times and learn more algs/methods/tricks.
The cube I'm using is old and VERY hard to turn; so I have to buy a newer one.
I'm searching for some suggestion because:
- i hate pops, i prefer a "stable" one
- i would like to buy a fast but controllable cube
- i would like to buy something well-made (i often read about bad stickers for example)
- a good allround (i still have to build my preferences in cubing)

Thanks to everyone will contribute.
Bye!!!!!


----------



## Blurry (Feb 6, 2015)

pedrocube said:


> Hi, I'm new in cubing (just few weeks) and here in the forum.
> I cube just for fun and I'm using the basic layers method. However I would like to get best solve-times and learn more algs/methods/tricks.
> The cube I'm using is old and VERY hard to turn; so I have to buy a newer one.
> I'm searching for some suggestion because:
> ...



A good starter would probably be a Dayan Zhanchi - It was a brilliant one for me, It gets you used to moving faster and executing algorithms faster but still being able to maintain grip and being controllable. I would totally recommend you it!


----------



## Johnny (Feb 6, 2015)

AoLong

If you don't use finger tricks on every turn, it won't be uncontrollable for you

There's no evidence that different skill levels need different cubes


----------



## Chrizz (Feb 6, 2015)

Johnny said:


> AoLong
> 
> If you don't use finger tricks on every turn, it won't be uncontrollable for you
> 
> There's no evidence that different skill levels need different cubes




While I agree that most cubes are alright for beginners I think the aolong is the most uncontrollable one. However, you can get used to any cube, so really it doesn't matter too much which cube you buy. You shouldn't lube a cube if you don't use fingertricks though. My first speedcube was a stickerless dayan zhanchi.


----------



## pedrocube (Feb 6, 2015)

And about Dayan Zhanchi, do you suggest the 55mm or the 57mm version?
What do you think about Shengshou Aurora?


----------



## ChickenWrap (Feb 6, 2015)

I still use a zhanchi. It is perfect!! A weilong is nice as well, but its just a matter of preference. I would get the 57mm, but I have both the 57 and 55 zhanchis and I like them both alot!

Don't get a SS Aurora. It is really cheap but you will want a better cube very quickly, so just get a zhanchi or weilong (or even aolong if you want).


----------



## Wylie28 (Feb 6, 2015)

The aolong v2 is good... the first aolong is uncontrollable but the along v2 is very controllable. It also effortlessly corner cuts beyond 45 degrees and never locks up or pops. I had a zhanchi and it never cut 45 degrees and popped very easliy so i dont reccomend it. The stickers are also really nice, they are high contrast and stay on really well


----------



## Seanliu (Feb 7, 2015)

For a beginner, you want to have an OK cube - otherwise your turning style will become so rough that... You would need a super loose cube to turn, otherwise lockups. The looser the cube, the more frequent pops happen. So I recommend SS Aurora.


----------



## cubecraze1 (Feb 7, 2015)

I remember when everyone cried if someone recommended a ZhanChi to a new cuber just because it was too fast.


----------



## Alphalpha (Feb 7, 2015)

Get whatever you want. I'm relatively new (4 months), avg in the low forties, with PBs in the low thirties, and I do well with any of the great cubes. It's a tool you need to master. Spend time practicing finger tricks, and you'll do fine. Get a zhanchi, a Gans 357, a weilong, an aolong, or a fangshi. Lube and tension. You really can't go wrong with one of these. Don't obsess over the cube, you can master it, but you need a good tool.


----------



## FailCuber (Feb 7, 2015)

Get an aolong and never buy another 3x3


----------



## Sauce (Feb 7, 2015)

Thinking financially, (I don't know your families income) check out DaYans cubes, such as the DaYan ZhanChi, or check out YJs cubes, they are pretty inexpensive. For YJ, I would check out the YuLong and GuanLong. If you want to go completely different then that, you may want to try out the NewIsland Phoenix when you master a speedsolving method if you haven't, that cube is decent.


----------



## Alphalpha (Feb 7, 2015)

Weilong v1 8$ amazon


----------



## Dong (Feb 7, 2015)

Alphalpha said:


> Weilong v1 8$ amazon



amazon sux


----------



## Alphalpha (Feb 7, 2015)

Not for people who have limited funds. Anyway saying something sux is for the mindless.


----------



## Ordway Persyn (Feb 7, 2015)

probably any YJ cube that ends in "long" will work.


----------



## pdilla (Feb 7, 2015)

cubecraze1 said:


> I remember when everyone cried if someone recommended a ZhanChi to a new cuber just because it was too fast.



I was just thinking this. 

Just get whatever cube you want. AoLong, Weilong, Zhanchi, whatever is good.


----------



## pyr14 (Feb 8, 2015)

My current main is the Yj yulong, the previous being a dayan zhanchi and I've heard from reviews that the yj guanlong is pretty good.

yj is very underated, should try yj out.


----------



## FailCuber (Feb 8, 2015)

Dong said:


> amazon sux



How does it suck??


----------



## Indiancuber (Feb 8, 2015)

pyr14 said:


> My current main is the Yj yulong, the previous being a dayan zhanchi and I've heard from reviews that the yj guanlong is pretty good.
> 
> yj is very underated, should try yj out.


 
Yes YJ guanlong is very good. but my main is dayan zhanchi. actually guanlong is cheap and very good for beginners


----------



## MrMan (Feb 8, 2015)

I don't understand people who recommend slower or cheaper cubes. We are not talking about music instrument the "professional" category is about the same price as the cheap category.
And it doesn't take years of practice to be able to use a good cube. Just a few days.

So for me you just have to make your choice between all of the option available. 
The zhanchi is great but I think there is better option now for just a few more dollars so why not ?
If you can I would recommend buying two cubes. An aolong v2, everyone has one and it can give you an idea of the feelings, cornet cut, lockiness etc... Kind of a reference. And with that a faster cube like a Gans III 57, or a fangshi guangying.
The idea is that with two different cubes you can have an idea of all the "feels" other persons describes in video and you'll be able to make future choice easily. Also if one doesn't fit you the other will.


----------



## pedrocube (Feb 8, 2015)

Thanks to everyone for the suggestions.


----------



## Bldnoob (Feb 23, 2015)

I would suggest the Aolong v2 or a zanchi. My first was the Aolong v2 and I loved it!


----------



## DeeDubb (Feb 23, 2015)

I'm so glad that my crusade against this idea:



Seanliu said:


> *For a beginner, you want to have an OK cube - otherwise your turning style will become so rough* that... You would need a super loose cube to turn, otherwise lockups. The looser the cube, the more frequent pops happen. So I recommend SS Aurora.



Is being replaced by this:



cubecraze1 said:


> I remember when everyone cried if someone recommended a ZhanChi to a new cuber just because it was too fast.





Alphalpha said:


> Get whatever you want. I'm relatively new (4 months), avg in the low forties, with PBs in the low thirties, and I do well with any of the great cubes. It's a tool you need to master. Spend time practicing finger tricks, and you'll do fine. Get a zhanchi, a Gans 357, a weilong, an aolong, or a fangshi. Lube and tension. You really can't go wrong with one of these. Don't obsess over the cube, you can master it, but you need a good tool.





pdilla said:


> I was just thinking this.
> 
> Just get whatever cube you want. AoLong, Weilong, Zhanchi, whatever is good.







MrMan said:


> I don't understand people who recommend slower or cheaper cubes. We are not talking about music instrument the "professional" category is about the same price as the cheap category.
> And it doesn't take years of practice to be able to use a good cube. Just a few days.
> 
> So for me you just have to make your choice between all of the option available.
> ...



It seems like my personal crusade against the idea of "beginner cubes" seems to be working.

EDIT:

As for my recommendation to beginners: It's a financial thing rather than a skill level thing. If you have $5, get a Guanlong. Absolutely the best price to quality out there. If you have $15, get an AoLong, it's a safe choice. If you have a lot of money, get a few cubes, and play around with them.

Personally, I rotate between an AoLong v1, WeiLong v1, GuanLong, Zhanchi, and YuLong. I just pick up whichever one I feel like at the time. Having a variety is fun.


----------



## ketchuphater999 (Feb 23, 2015)

I want to say Aolong v2... but everyone's said that already. I say Dayan Lunhui (that brings back memories :3).


----------



## kerbingamer376 (Dec 19, 2015)

*good cubes for a beginner?*

Hi,
I'm a beginner cuber (PB 55secs) and am just learning F2L with 4Look LL method.
what would be a good speedcube for me?
thanks,
mantin
PS. It should be available easily in the UK


----------



## starcuber (Dec 19, 2015)

yuxin fire or guanlong


----------



## b0ssGuy23 (Dec 19, 2015)

I would say the QiYi Sail or TangLong are both great options for beginners.


----------



## TBSC30 (Mar 27, 2020)

No
A beginner does not know if they will stick with the hobby, and if they don't (Which is fine, it might just not be for them) the will have wasted a lot of money on the best cube on the market. However, I would still recommend a speed cube, not a Rubik's Brand because it will make learning easier. Besides, there are speedcubes that cost quite a bit less than a Rubik's Brand. Another reason a beginner should not start with the best cube is because if they spend all their money when they start, a better cube might come out when they really need it


----------



## EngiNerdBrian (Mar 27, 2020)

Yes. 
i think a beginner should start with the* best cube they can afford and are willing to spend the cash on.* I think this is much like learning any new skill or musical instrument...there is nothing more frustrating than learning with poor equipment. If you have the ability to purchase better tools why hold yourself back? Yes, they can't take advantage of all the benefits the best cubes have to offer but they will definitely find it more enjoyable and are more likely to stick with the hobby than if you start with a Rubik's brand or something that pops constantly and prohibits your progress.


----------



## carcass (Mar 27, 2020)

No. You should get a speedcube, but not the best so you can appreciate better hardware. If you disagree, I can't blame you, it's completely opinion based.


----------



## ProStar (Mar 27, 2020)

I know this thread had a 4 year bump, and might end up getting locked, but I'd still like to share my opinion:

No. A beginner's times won't be changed *at all* by getting an Angstrom GTS3M(or any flagship) versus a YLM(or any decent budget cube). Also, this applies to not just beginners, but basically everybody. Unless you're a world class solver, honestly it doesn't matter if you're using a MAX XS or a hand set-up MF3RS. This becomes slightly more important the faster you get, but until you're sub 10 (at least), it doesn't matter. Don't buy the new cube because you think it will make you faster, it won't. Take me as an example:

I average around 19 seconds, and main a GTS3M. At a comp, I was playing around with a $5 YLM, and was getting *the* *exact same times* as with my $40 cube.

Buying a new cube won't help you get faster, and this applies even more to beginners then "faster" solvers. This isn't meant to diss anyone who buys the latest cubes, they're still really fun to solve with. I just want people to know that spending hundreds of dollars(total) on all of the newest cubes won't improve your times at all. If you have a decent speedcube, there's no need to buy the nicest one, especially as a beginner.


----------



## fun at the joy (Mar 27, 2020)

ProStar said:


> Unless you're a world class solver, honestly it doesn't matter if you're using a MAX XS or a hand set-up MF3RS.


This is just not true.
I would definitely be faster with the Mf3RS cause GAN cubes suckkk haha jk


----------



## MJS Cubing (Mar 27, 2020)

I think that you should not spend too much money on random cubes as a beginner, because if you end up not liking cubing, you won't have the cash for something else. Also, don't be like my spoiled neighbor and spend $90 on cubes before you even solve one, and then ask me to teach you. The first time I spent more than $10 on a cube I had been cubing for a year. It didn't even help me that much, because I still averaged about 50 seconds, but then when I had been cubing for about 2-3 years I bought a GTS2M, and it dropped my times a lot.

The mistake most new cubers make is that they think that it's their cube that makes them faster, not their skill. They might see Feliks Zemdegs use a Gan X on youtube to set a WR, and think that the cube makes him fast. While this is true, it is also the experience and the skill that he possesses. New cubers averaging 1:00.00+ one a Yuxin Little Magic will not do any better on a Gan X, because their turning speed is not up to par yet.

When their TPS gets higher they need a more expensive cube that performs better, so they could buy one. But if they can't take advantage of the speed and features of a good cube, when they actually need a better cube, they might have already worn out the expensive cube and might have to buy another one, or there will be a better model. 

So, in a quick summary, new cubers should not buy expensive cubes because they don't have the TPS or skill to use an expensive cube. When they do, they might have to buy a new one because their old one got worn out or there is a new model. I fell down this Rabbit hole when I was new, and now I have a worn out Little Magic M from cubicle labs that I need to replace. Now I main a GTS2M, which I feel is as expensive as you should go as a beginner.


----------



## ProStar (Mar 27, 2020)

MJS Cubing said:


> I think that you should not spend too much money on random cubes as a beginner, because if you end up not liking cubing, you won't have the cash for something else. Also, don't be like my spoiled neighbor and spend $90 on cubes before you even solve one, and then ask me to teach you. The first time I spent more than $10 on a cube I had been cubing for a year. It didn't even help me that much, because I still averaged about 50 seconds, but then when I had been cubing for about 2-3 years I bought a GTS2M, and it dropped my times a lot.



Agree, I had a rubiks bran originally, upgraded to a "speed cube" (bad cube from amazon, you can't get much worse) when I averaged around 50, then when I was averaging around 30-40 fell into the trap of "I need the best cube" (although I did need an upgrade, that amazon cube sucked lol) and got a GTS3M, which I am currently maining.



MJS Cubing said:


> The mistake most new cubers make is that they think that it's their cube that makes them faster, not their skill. They might see Feliks Zemdegs use a Gan X on youtube to set a WR, and think that the cube makes him fast. While this is true, it is also the experience and the skill that he possesses. New cubers averaging 1:00.00+ one a Yuxin Little Magic will not do any better on a Gan X, because their turning speed is not up to par yet.



Even if you're averaging 10-59:99.999 seconds, it still isn't necessary to upgrade to a better cube, you can get times just as good as something like a YLM. While it may feel better on a nicer cube, your times won't show it. Even with the crappy amazon cube I was talking about, I average 1-2 seconds worse, and with a YLM(tried at comp) I average the same.



MJS Cubing said:


> When their TPS gets higher they need a more expensive cube that performs better, so they could buy one. But if they can't take advantage of the speed and features of a good cube, when they actually need a better cube, they might have already worn out the expensive cube and might have to buy another one, or there will be a better model.



I disagree, and would say the same thing as before


----------



## MJS Cubing (Mar 27, 2020)

ProStar said:


> I disagree, and would say the same thing as before


If you are using a cube that can't handle the higher TPS, it is at that point that hardware is limiting you, so you need a better cube.


----------



## ProStar (Mar 27, 2020)

MJS Cubing said:


> If you are using a cube that can't handle the higher TPS, it is at that point that hardware is limiting you, so you need a better cube.



A decent MF3RS or YLM can handle higher TPS. Next comp, find a sub-10 cuber and see what they can do with a decent budget cube.


----------



## MJS Cubing (Mar 27, 2020)

ProStar said:


> A decent MF3RS or YLM can handle higher TPS. Next comp, find a sub-10 cuber and see what they can do with a decent budget cube.


No one will be at any comp for a long time. Magnets are also a big help, and I feel like my GTS2M greatly outperforms my Yulong v2m. In my opinion, with cheap cubes it's performance or magnets. You could have an unstable but fast cube with good corner cutting, or a magnetic cube that is slow with not so great corner cutting. I think that barrier breaks at $20 with the Little Magic M.

Edit: I own all three of the cubes mentioned, so I am going off experience. My Yulong v2 might be a dud, but I'm not sure because I haven't tried any other ones.


----------



## ProStar (Mar 27, 2020)

MJS Cubing said:


> No one will be at any comp for a long time. Magnets are also a big help, and I feel like my GTS2M greatly outperforms my Yulong v2m. In my opinion, with cheap cubes it's performance or magnets. You could have an unstable but fast cube with good corner cutting, or a magnetic cube that is slow with not so great corner cutting. I think that barrier breaks at $20 with the Little Magic M.
> 
> Edit: I own all three of the cubes mentioned, so I am going off experience. My Yulong v2 might be a dud, but I'm not sure because I haven't tried any other ones.



I already said that nicer cubes perform better, that's why they're nicer. My point is that nicer cubes don't improve times.


----------



## MJS Cubing (Mar 27, 2020)

ProStar said:


> I already said that nicer cubes perform better, that's why they're nicer. My point is that nicer cubes don't improve times.


I average about 5 seconds slower on my little magic, but it could also be because I'm not used to it.


----------



## ProStar (Mar 27, 2020)

MJS Cubing said:


> I average about 5 seconds slower on my little magic, but it could also be because I'm not used to it.



What do you normally average?


----------



## MJS Cubing (Mar 27, 2020)

ProStar said:


> What do you normally average?


About 20-25, depending on the day. I average 25-30 on the little magic, and it's set up, which most new cubers don't know how to do, or they don't have lube.


----------



## ProStar (Mar 27, 2020)

MJS Cubing said:


> About 20-25, depending on the day. I average 25-30 on the little magic, and it's set up, which most new cubers don't know how to do, or they don't have lube.



It's probably because you're not used to it. If you were to do some solves on it. you'd probably be averaging almost exactly the same as normal

Edit: I just did a Ao5 with my really bad amazon cube and got 17.62. To be fair, those were super easy scrambles, and I probably would've gotten around 19 on normal scrambles, but even that is the same as my average. Very rarely did I feel limited by the cube, most of the time it was inefficiencies in F2L, with a few lockups on LL.


----------



## MJS Cubing (Mar 27, 2020)

ProStar said:


> It's probably because you're not used to it. If you were to do some solves on it. you'd probably be averaging almost exactly the same as normal


Possibly, but I used that for sooooo long as my main before I got the GTS2 that I think it was just the cube. I instantly dropped 5 sec, and out of all 3 of the little magics I own (one being magnetic) they all very in quality. The cheap cubes have bad quality control.


----------



## Username: Username: (Mar 28, 2020)

Buy an MF3RS2 M Or a YuXin Little Magic M those are good cubes to start on.


----------

