# Impact of color neutrality.



## RyanReese09 (Nov 13, 2010)

Bad title thread, but whatever.

Rowe and faz are both color neutral and have the fastest official singles in the world. Do you think anyone is going to switch/attempt to switch to color neutrality in light of this? I'm personally not but I could imagine many people trying the switch


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## Edward (Nov 13, 2010)

The color neutral surge ended last week. It won't be back for another few weeks.


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## XXGeneration (Nov 13, 2010)

I was actually thinking of this, but I think there are more important things to be worked on instead of saving a few moves on the cross.


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## Zyrb (Nov 13, 2010)

Actually for me, yes. I have been thinking of going CN for a while now, and today's events pushed me to finally start practising it.


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## Anthony (Nov 13, 2010)

XXGeneration said:


> I was actually thinking of this, but I think there are more important things to be worked on instead of saving a few moves on the cross.


 
The benefits of being CN are far more than just "saving a few moves on the cross."


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## RyanReese09 (Nov 13, 2010)

XXGeneration said:


> I was actually thinking of this, but I think there are more important things to be worked on instead of saving a few moves on the cross.


it gives you a more solid flow into f2l since you can track peices easier



Zyrb said:


> Actually for me, yes. I have been thinking of going CN for a while now, and today's events pushed me to finally start practising it.


 yeah i saw your sig change to that, i assumeed it was because of the wrs

edit-what anthony said


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## teller (Nov 13, 2010)

I want to, but it drives me bonkers!


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## Zyrb (Nov 13, 2010)

hopefully, it will all pay off. but i want to see what other people think


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## Edward (Nov 13, 2010)

teller said:


> I want to, but it drives me bonkers!


 
Push through man! It only hurts for a second. After that you can't realise why you'd want to stay with one color.


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## XXGeneration (Nov 13, 2010)

I think that where I'm averaging (around 16 to 17) there's more important things to work on.
Although once I get to maybe sub 14 or 15, I'll consider it.


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## RyanReese09 (Nov 13, 2010)

Zyrb said:


> hopefully, it will all pay off. but i want to see what other people think


 
i want to try it too, or rather i did, but didn't like it alot . i was cn wit beginners but badmephisto changed me.
i wanted easier cross, but i decided yellow/white was enough (f2l and LL are almost the same). my yellow is like a second slower on average but that's because I dont use it too much. a hard yellow case + harder white case = white wins. yellow has to be some what easy for me to do it (or white horrible)


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## Zyrb (Nov 13, 2010)

I think of it as a new challenge, its a great feeling when you think I CAN do this.


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## rock1313 (Nov 13, 2010)

RyanReese09 said:


> it gives you a more solid flow into f2l since you can track peices easier


How can you track the pieces easier. I'm just curious


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## Zyrb (Nov 13, 2010)

I would assume, because you know cross, F2L, PLL and OLL with all pieces you are more familiar with them


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## rock1313 (Nov 13, 2010)

wait is this colour netral or not colour netral he was talking about


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## Zyrb (Nov 13, 2010)

he saying being CN is more than just an easier cross, it helps easier f2l flow


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## masterofthebass (Nov 13, 2010)

RyanReese09 said:


> Rowe and faz are both color neutral and have the fastest official singles in the world. Do you think anyone is going to switch/attempt to switch to color neutrality *in light of this?*



so before today, CN was pointless? Thats a pretty dumb reason to think its fast.


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## Zyrb (Nov 13, 2010)

masterofthebass said:


> so before today, CN was pointless? Thats a pretty dumb reason to think its fast.


 
for the record, faz and rowe aren't the only reason I'm going CN. that would be pointless


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## DavidWoner (Nov 13, 2010)

I'm sure it has nothing to do with the fact that they both turn super fast and know a lot about cubing.


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## flan (Nov 13, 2010)

An easier cross means you can look further into f2l during inspection...and erik got his wr single by spotting the first pair during inspection. Pll skip helped though...

(yes I know he's not CN)


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## Zyrb (Nov 13, 2010)

DavidWoner said:


> I'm sure it has nothing to do with the fact that they both turn super fast and know a lot about cubing.


 
I'm not saying that it didn't influence me, I said in my first post they pushed me to finally do it, but I have other reasons. For example it is an interesting skill I find useful, my friend is CN and said it isn't as difficult to learn as people make it out to be. So please don't think I am ignorant enough to think that being CN will get me WRs


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## RyanReese09 (Nov 13, 2010)

masterofthebass said:


> so before today, CN was pointless? Thats a pretty dumb reason to think its fast.


 
No it wasn't stupid. But there wasn't a ..reason or motivation for people to go CN. world record holders ( would think) tend to get their methods adapted. people can see the speed top CN'es get

CN is to each its own, i dont think it has that big of a difference. a main reason peoploe dont do CN is because of recognition. well if you get recog down to instant like faz has, then basically CN gives you easier cross , which is an obvious advantage


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## BigSams (Nov 13, 2010)

Couple of questions here:
1) Yeah you might find a really easy cross, but how many of the 6 crosses do CNers usually have time to observe in 15 seconds?
2) I use ZZ-Fridrich. How difficult is it to find the easiest EO with CN in 15s?

lawl I'm posting insteading of studying for chem test and CN keeps reminding me of cyanide CN-.


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## RyanReese09 (Nov 13, 2010)

BigSams said:


> Couple of questions here:
> 1) Yeah you might find a really easy cross, but how many of the 6 crosses do CNers usually have time to observe in 15 seconds?
> 2) I use ZZ-Fridrich. How difficult is it to find the easiest EO with CN?
> 
> lawl I'm posting insteading of studying for chem test and CN keeps reminding me of cyanide CN-.


 
if your not slow then you can inspect them all in 15 seconds. its easy, just look for faces with many cross peices on it, or easy to place. back when i was CN it took me about 8 seconds to pick my face + plan out my cross. which is slow. easier/more obvious crosses will reduce inspection time (though i think uusing full inspection time is well worth it. use what they give)

@ #2, id say very hard though i havent tried. zz regularly requires long inspection(somewhat long) but checking all 6 faces i dont think is feasilby duable in 15 seconds..perhaps white/yellow kinda thing. im talking outa my a$$ though


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## FatBoyXPC (Nov 13, 2010)

Only one other person has mentioned that Erik's WR was from being opposite neutral, not full CN. Did you guys already forget about Rowan's sub8? That was only opposite neutral as well.

I think I remember Faz doing an average of only white/yellow cross and still got a sub10 average. I think you guys should focus a lot more on other things, such as influencing the first pair with the cross, and Rowan gave three excellent examples in a thread a couple weeks ago (or so). I understand how being full CN can get you easy cases, but I think having the consistency should be more of a driving factor than wanting that one lucky solve.


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## Dene (Nov 13, 2010)

fatboyxpc said:


> Only one other person has mentioned that Erik's WR was from being opposite neutral, not full CN. Did you guys already forget about Rowan's sub8? That was only opposite neutral as well.
> 
> I think I remember Faz doing an average of only white/yellow cross and still got a sub10 average. I think you guys should focus a lot more on other things, such as influencing the first pair with the cross, and Rowan gave three excellent examples in a thread a couple weeks ago (or so). I understand how being full CN can get you easy cases, but I think having the consistency should be more of a driving factor than wanting that one lucky solve.


 
I think you have the focus all wrong as well. Clearly turning faster is what matters the most.


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## amostay2004 (Nov 13, 2010)

Single times are a terrible way to judge. Use averages instead.


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## RyanReese09 (Nov 13, 2010)

amostay2004 said:


> Single times are a terrible way to judge. Use averages instead.


 
ok let me restart this thread with the word averages.

faz/rowe still have the fastest/Nar average with CN


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## Dene (Nov 14, 2010)

RyanReese09 said:


> faz/rowe still have the fastest/Nar average with CN


 
Ya because who cares about the AsR


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## RyanReese09 (Nov 14, 2010)

Dene said:


> Ya because who cares about the AsR


 
Not me. it contradicts the point of my thread. so gtfo
plus it being the AsR still makes my statement true in its entirety


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## maggot (Nov 14, 2010)

DavidWoner said:


> I'm sure it has nothing to do with the fact that they both turn super fast and know a lot about cubing.



i lol'd

on topic, going CN is a lot harder than one would presume. it takes much time with all the different colors to be able to block out/ add in colors on F2L. for example. on blue cross, you wouldnt typically look for a white edge on a white cross. so when you see one, you think your cross is messed up. and on top of that, you have to block out green pieces, which you would typically not do when doing white cross. it takes some time.. im partially CN, as i have not played much with red/orange crosses, but i have become comfortable with the cross on blue/green as well as white/yellow. the reason i dont go all the way is because despite knowing the other 4 'schemes' in and out, i always have orange and red edges. this is making my transistion to full CN a little difficult. i will be there soon, but ive been saying that for a year! hahaha

i have to agree with dene about turning faster. this will always supercede anything in a solve. lookahead going along with turning fast (because if you arent looking ahead, you arent turning faster). the cross, even easy xcross cases can easily be thrown away in your time if your familiarity with the 'scheme' is poor or if your turning is slow and inefficient. 

with inspection and cross selection, i typically look at all 4 colors i use within inspection. i have a very easy method (until i plan on practicing). look at white and yellow sides, count the white and yellow pieces. look at the blue and green side, count the blue and green pieces. i only look for cross pieces that are on the face or on the opposite face. i dont care about the cross pieces on the side. once i find the cross color that has the best case according to those conditions, i then spot the other cross pieces on the side faces. if it is a bad case, i will then look at the insertions for the 2nd best cross and decide. this whole process usually takes me about 5 seconds. to inspect 4 colors and plan a cross. sometimes ill take the full inspection if i find a corner and edge pair with my cross color.. hard to explain, but if i have a white cross and i spot a complete F2L pair with a white corner. i will track that pair as im mentally doing the cross sol'n to find out where its going to be after insertion, or if there's an easy way to insert while im doing the cross (usually not the case).


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## EricReese (Nov 14, 2010)

Why the hell are you guys arguing about this subject?


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## Anthony (Nov 14, 2010)

flan said:


> An easier cross means you can look further into f2l during inspection...and erik got his wr single by spotting the first pair during inspection. Pll skip helped though...


 
I lol'd.


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## a small kitten (Nov 14, 2010)

> Not me. it contradicts the point of my thread. so gtfo



What does this even mean?


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## Zubon (Nov 14, 2010)

Wow, what a thread. I think I'll become color neutral when my average is sub 12. i.e. never...


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## abctoshiro (Nov 14, 2010)

I'll go neutral when I average sub-7.91.


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## deadalnix (Nov 14, 2010)

Actually, CN helps a lot when it comes to XCross. Opposite neutral also (I'll use ON for it).

The XCross is basically a 2x2x2 bloc + a cross overlaping. The 2x2x2 isn't a big constraint on the cross, but the cross is a big deal to build the 2x2x2 bloc (mostly, you need to do an F2L case). Being color neutral or opposite neutral allow you to explore the 8 2x2x2 bloc you can begin with. Actually, you'll look at them searching for an easy pattern.

By insterting few moves in the 2x2x2 bloc building or at the end makes you an XCross.

Remeber : being CN makes you win 1 mvt on average, and ON 0.5 . The big deal isn't here. The big deal is XCross. And ON and CN helps A LOT for XCross. However, if the gain is certain from non neutral to ON, it's not very clear what it is from ON to CN. These guys turn the cube crazy fast, and be sure that if they can achieve such great time, it's not just a matter of CN.

In a short way : go for ON, without any hesitation ! Go for CN if you really want to, but the gain over ON isn't certain. Think XCross.


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## Cyrus C. (Nov 14, 2010)

I can be colour neutral with CFOP (not with MGLS though) but have never thought it was worth it.


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## waffle=ijm (Nov 14, 2010)

I'm colour neutral with the exception of 5 colours


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## Anthony (Nov 14, 2010)

Cyrus C. said:


> I can be colour neutral with CFOP (not with MGLS though) but have never thought it was worth it.


 
Anyone "can be colour neutral". It's all about getting very fast with any starting orientation and having no significant difference in your times based on which color's "start" you decide to go with.


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## BigSams (Nov 14, 2010)

waffle=ijm said:


> I'm colour neutral with the exception of 5 colours


 
A lot of your comments have been as useless as Kirjava's recently. Just saying. Though my comment now is just as pointless =/ let's all use sarcasm and criticism more constructively.


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## waffle=ijm (Nov 14, 2010)

:3
there's a method to my madness. and it involves cookies


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## RyanReese09 (Nov 14, 2010)

waffle=ijm said:


> :3
> there's a method to my madness. and it involves cookies


 
NO WAFFOS?


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## CubesOfTheWorld (Nov 14, 2010)

BigSams said:


> A lot of your comments have been as useless as Kirjava's recently. Just saying. Though my comment now is just as pointless =/ let's all use sarcasm and criticism more constructively.


 
I wouldn't be talking to waffo like that. He just adds a nice touch of humor to the forums.


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## teller (Nov 14, 2010)

Edward said:


> Push through man! It only hurts for a second. After that you can't realise why you'd want to stay with one color.


 
@Edward: Thank you, my friend...yes...I will do it!

@Everyone else: The side-debate about the benefits of CN are hilarious...do some block building and you'll start to realize just how much inspection you are missing! Your best champions learned some ~Petrus and perceive things you cannot.


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## Hadley4000 (Nov 14, 2010)

I think there will be a lot more CN solvers, particularly those who already aren't sub-10. A lot of people tend to just follow every move of the WR holders. Any WR holder could start using store cubes and other people would do it.


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## Dene (Nov 14, 2010)

EricReese said:


> Why the hell are you guys arguing about this subject?


 
You are clearly new around here.


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## Zane_C (Nov 14, 2010)

I've thought a few times about becoming colour neutral, but at my current speed ~15, I think green and blue cross will do the trick.


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## EricReese (Nov 14, 2010)

Dene said:


> You are clearly new around here.


 
or i think ryan is dumb for getting so mad about this


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## blakedacuber (Nov 14, 2010)

honestly i think if its an extremel easy cross go for it other wise i dont think it would make a big impact


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## Cyrus C. (Nov 14, 2010)

Anthony said:


> Anyone "can be colour neutral". It's all about getting very fast with any starting orientation and having no significant difference in your times based on which color's "start" you decide to go with.


 
Well, yea, I meant I can get the same times.


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## RyanReese09 (Nov 14, 2010)

EricReese said:


> or i think ryan is dumb for getting so mad about this


 
I'm not getting mad about this at all? :fp


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## brunson (Nov 14, 2010)

Hadley4000 said:


> I think there will be a lot more CN solvers, particularly those who already aren't sub-10. A lot of people tend to just follow every move of the WR holders. Any WR holder could start using store cubes and other people would do it.


 
I think the main thing to come out of it is that we can finally oust the old argument that CN is slower. That used to come up all the time when most of the top ten in 3x3 were one color cross or ON. I don't think CN is necessarily harder than learning single color cross, but I know it took longer for me to become as adept at cross than a lot of the single color solvers I've seen here.

Looking at Lars' cross study, sure, you save fewer than two moves *on average*, but you're three times as likely to get a sub-six move cross and five times more likely to get a four or fewer move cross. And in the unlikely event of getting a zero, one or two move cross, there's only a 1 in six change that it will be useful to a single color solver. 

It's why I've referred to it as "opportunistically advantageous" in the past. The likelihood of it paying of is low, but when it does it's pretty awesome. Which reminds me, I need to get way better at xcross.


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## theace (Nov 14, 2010)

I decided to try out some CN. Killed all my times. I.ve been at it ems a couple of days now. I average at around 25 with white. While trying to go cn, i'm above 50 on an average and now, my brain'r so bloody scrambled that my white's around 35 too! Oll is unaffected and pll has a recognition that's a tad bit longer. F2l in cn solve is bloody crazy!

Frankly, even if you get the cross in one move, what's the point if your f2l is virtually going to double?

So how do you do the xcross anyway, any video tuts?


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## rowehessler (Nov 14, 2010)

I think if someone has an average over a second faster than everyone else, what he's doing obviously seems worth it.


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## Edward (Nov 14, 2010)

theace said:


> I decided to try out some CN. *Killed all my times. I.ve been at it ems a couple of days now.* I average at around 25 with white. While trying to go cn, i'm above 50 on an average and now, my brain'r so bloody scrambled that my white's around 35 too! Oll is unaffected and pll has a recognition that's a tad bit longer. F2l in cn solve is bloody crazy!
> 
> Frankly, even if you get the cross in one move, what's the point if your f2l is virtually going to double?
> 
> So how do you do the xcross anyway, any video tuts?


 
It'll take more than a week to truly adjust


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## FatBoyXPC (Nov 14, 2010)

rowehessler said:


> I think if someone has an average over a second faster than everyone else, what he's doing obviously seems worth it.


 
Well Rowe, I think you can agree what you've got on us is a lot more than just color neutrality  TPS alone you've got so many of us blown out of the water! Rowe, would you do the favor of doing a white/yellow cross average of 12 and show us the results? 



rowehessler said:


> SO feliks' f2l would be twice as fast if he only used one color?


 
I clearly see your point here, but man, I don't even want to think about how fast you two would be with an f2l twice as fast :/


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## rowehessler (Nov 14, 2010)

theace said:


> I decided to try out some CN. Killed all my times. I.ve been at it ems a couple of days now. I average at around 25 with white. While trying to go cn, i'm above 50 on an average and now, my brain'r so bloody scrambled that my white's around 35 too! Oll is unaffected and pll has a recognition that's a tad bit longer. F2l in cn solve is bloody crazy!
> 
> Frankly, even if you get the cross in one move, what's the point if your f2l is virtually going to double?
> 
> So how do you do the xcross anyway, any video tuts?



A couple of days.....what were you expecting? Picking it up and being the same as you are with one color without any practice? it takes years to develop CN. And "f2l is virtually double" with CN huh? SO feliks' f2l would be twice as fast if he only used one color?


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## Edward (Nov 14, 2010)

fatboyxpc said:


> Well Rowe, I think you can agree what you've got on us is a lot more than just color neutrality  TPS alone you've got so many of us blown out of the water! Rowe,* would you do the favor of doing a white/yellow cross average of 12 and show us the results?*


 
They won't be different from his usual average. He's color neutral.


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## FatBoyXPC (Nov 14, 2010)

That was the point!


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## Erik (Nov 14, 2010)

RyanReese09 said:


> ok let me restart this thread with the word averages.
> 
> faz/rowe still have the fastest/Nar average with CN



Ahem.. ER beats Nar thanks very much ;-)


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## Cubezz (Nov 14, 2010)

waffle=ijm said:


> I'm colour neutral with the exception of 5 colours


 
Waffo wins this thread.
Anyhow, I am trying to become colour neutral. Well opposite neutral first.


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## deadalnix (Nov 14, 2010)

rowehessler said:


> I think if someone has an average over a second faster than everyone else, what he's doing obviously seems worth it.


 
CN isn't the only thing faz does. He does an XCross very consistantly and have a crazy TPS as well as a crazy fast recognition. Theyre is no evidence that CN is what's make faz so fast.

As an exemple, we tried with a friend to do the WR solve. Even afetr several tries, knowing pefectly the solution, we couldn't break the 8s (best of 8.05 for my friend).

Is something is certain, this is that CN doesn't make you 1s faster. Also, I find quite sad that ON isn't really considered in this thread. I really see the advantage of ON, especially when XCross is considered, but gap between ON and CN isn't obvious at all.


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## EricReese (Nov 14, 2010)

When asked in the podcast what Faz himself thinks puts himself so far ahead of other cubers he says him being CN. and no, when I asked him about xcross he specifically said he only does an xcross 1/10 solves. he has crazy lookahead, and practiced a lot. Being CN means he has less moves to solve the cube.


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## FatBoyXPC (Nov 14, 2010)

That argument (fewer moves) is weak since he had over a 50 move solution :/CN only saves cross moves (with your argument, anyhow) and that's what, 3 moves at the most? So you're talking less than half a second for him.

I think what's forgotten is that a nice advantage of being CN is that you have a better chance for a good start (which can definitely make or break a solve, especially at those speeds). I know when I have a great cross to first pair transition, with my usual look ahead, I'm around 17 or so. If I have a terrible transition, I can easily go over 20. That's why I suggested working on influencing the first pair with the cross, because it makes a huge advantage (in the very least you can still watch what you do to the cross and still know where your first pair is, which is great for those who struggle tracking a corner during the cross).


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## EricReese (Nov 15, 2010)

How is it weak rofl. you save about 3 moves, and faz himself says that having an easy cross (being cn) makes lookahead into F2L so much easier. Lol


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## FatBoyXPC (Nov 15, 2010)

See my edit, and two moves, really? That's a quarter of a second.


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## EricReese (Nov 15, 2010)

I thought I typed 3. Cry


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## FatBoyXPC (Nov 15, 2010)

Even still that's 0.38 of a second, granted this would make it over 7 seconds at that point but it clearly isn't the only thing that makes him fast. Having an easy cross isn't the only thing that can give you a better look into the F2L (such as stated in my edit). I feel like the advantages of CN have kind of been beat to death by other arguments, but I hope you'd agree that if Feliks or Rowe made a video of white/yellow cross only (or heck, even white only) they'd sub10 an average just as easily.


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## EricReese (Nov 15, 2010)

Its called lookahead and them being able to turn at 8 tps.


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## Kirjava (Nov 15, 2010)

Remember that thread where we talked about CN vs NonCN?


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## FatBoyXPC (Nov 15, 2010)

Which has been said already countless times.


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## Kirjava (Nov 15, 2010)

BigSams said:


> A lot of your comments have been as useless as Kirjava's recently.


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## amostay2004 (Nov 15, 2010)

It's stupid to argue CN vs non-CN really. CN is clearly better than non-CN. The only bad thing is that you can't start out as good as people with a fixed colour because it's that much harder to lookahead. But when you're at pro level, clearly lookahead doesn't pose a problem anymore as shown by faz/rowe/etc so there really isn't any disadvantage to CN. I'm not saying CN is that much better than non-CN, but if there're no disadvantages and you can save a move or two or get an easy x-cross every 10 solves, it does help.

What would be a better discussion is if it's worthwhile to switch to CN when you're already fast with sticking to one colour, in which case switching to opposite CN is probably the closest you can get to neutrality in solves, because switching to CN will be really, really hard.

edit: So if anyone is just starting to speedcube, the best advice would be to ask him/her to be colour neutral. It really pays off in the end.


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## EricReese (Nov 15, 2010)

I mainly only do OH and it takes me like 30 seconds to inspect one color on my cube, I couldnt imagine doing that for all 6 sides during 15 second inspection. Just ridiculous


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## RyanO (Nov 15, 2010)

30 second inspection time = DNF.


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## deadalnix (Nov 15, 2010)

EricReese said:


> How is it weak rofl. you save about 3 moves, and faz himself says that having an easy cross (being cn) makes lookahead into F2L so much easier. Lol


 
1 move on average. 0.5 comapred with ON.

If CN is really faster, move count isn't the reason.


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## EricReese (Nov 15, 2010)

deadalnix said:


> 1 move on average. 0.5 comapred with ON.
> 
> If Cn is really faster, move count isn't the reason.


 
Then it would be the freaking reason I also explained IN THAT VERY SAME POST. Easier cross means you can look into F2L easier.

Can we stop arguing about this subject? its rehtarded. If anything Id like to discuss this subject:



amostay2004 said:


> It's stupid to argue CN vs non-CN really. CN is clearly better than non-CN. The only bad thing is that you can't start out as good as people with a fixed colour because it's that much harder to lookahead. But when you're at pro level, clearly lookahead doesn't pose a problem anymore as shown by faz/rowe/etc so there really isn't any disadvantage to CN. I'm not saying CN is that much better than non-CN, but if there're no disadvantages and you can save a move or two or get an easy x-cross every 10 solves, it does help.
> 
> What would be a better discussion is if it's worthwhile to switch to CN when you're already fast with sticking to one colour, in which case switching to opposite CN is probably the closest you can get to neutrality in solves, because switching to CN will be really, really hard.
> 
> edit: So if anyone is just starting to speedcube, the best advice would be to ask him/her to be colour neutral. It really pays off in the end.


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## deadalnix (Nov 15, 2010)

Obviously CN is better. Or at least equivalent.

The point is : NO, this is NOT what makes faz so fast. Neither Rowe.


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## amostay2004 (Nov 15, 2010)

deadalnix said:


> Obviously CN is better. Or at least equivalent.
> 
> The point is : NO, this is NOT what makes faz so fast. Neither Rowe.


 
Of course it is not the main reason they're fast. There're just so many factors, and CN is but a small part of it. But hey, in cubing, every small thing makes you that much faster.


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## waffle=ijm (Nov 15, 2010)

amostay2004 said:


> every small thing makes you that much faster.


 
the same thing happened to me with some other pants.


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