# Should events be dropped for the 2021 Weekly Competition?



## ichcubegerne (Nov 23, 2020)

We should remove some useless events along with that tho^^
I would like so see some fast cuboids


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## Sub1Hour (Nov 23, 2020)

ichcubegerne said:


> We should remove some useless events along with that tho^^
> I would like so see some fast cuboids


What useless events? All of them aren’t useless by any means. The closest to useless any of these are is 3x3 match, and I find that one to be quite fun


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## DNF_Cuber (Nov 23, 2020)

Sub1Hour said:


> What useless events? All of them aren’t useless by any means. The closest to useless any of these are is 3x3 match, and I find that one to be quite fun


 we have too many nxn only relays. Maybe get rid of 2-6 if we need the room


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## Sub1Hour (Nov 24, 2020)

DNF_Cuber said:


> we have too many nxn only relays. Maybe get rid of 2-6 if we need the room


You can't run out of room for an online competition. If you don't want to do it, don't do it. It's not like it's filling up a schedule or anything.


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## 2018AMSB02 (Nov 24, 2020)

ichcubegerne said:


> We should remove some useless events along with that tho^^
> I would like so see some fast cuboids



I would like to add events, and while I don’t see a need to drop any I would be in favor of dropping some


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## ichcubegerne (Nov 24, 2020)

Sub1Hour said:


> What useless events? All of them aren’t useless by any means. The closest to useless any of these are is 3x3 match, and I find that one to be quite fun


Relays are ****ing useless. Its just who is the best at the biggest puzzle. And we have these puzzles anyway^^



Sub1Hour said:


> You can't run out of room for an online competition. If you don't want to do it, don't do it. It's not like it's filling up a schedule or anything.


Then why dont we just introduce every single event, no matter how stupid it is? Its about keeping the people that participate in an event at a high level and not add useless stuff thats useless.


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## Sub1Hour (Nov 24, 2020)

ichcubegerne said:


> Relays are ****ing useless. Its just who is the best at the biggest puzzle. And we have these puzzles anyway^^


Language, Big Guy


ichcubegerne said:


> Then why dont we just introduce every single event, no matter how stupid it is? Its about keeping the people that participate in an event at a high level and not add useless stuff thats useless.


I wasn't talking about adding anything, I was talking about not removing anything.

Also, what do you mean keep people that participate at a high level? This weekly comp is for fun, its not like its going on your WCA profile. If you want to be on a high level of whatever event you want, just practice that event.


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## Kit Clement (Nov 24, 2020)

I would rather only add events that will generate meaningful participation. Adding too many more events will spread people's time too thin to participate in events they like, which already seems to be happening for many events in the weekly competition. There are many events I have in mind that deserve consideration to be added (like FTO), but I think it would be reasonable to consider taking out events that are not generating meaningful participation and competition.


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## ProStar (Nov 24, 2020)

Kit Clement said:


> I would rather only add events that will generate meaningful participation. Adding too many more events will spread people's time too thin to participate in events they like, which already seems to be happening for many events in the weekly competition. There are many events I have in mind that deserve consideration to be added (like FTO), but I think it would be reasonable to consider taking out events that are not generating meaningful participation and competition.



I agree. Perhaps add a participation count that a event has to meet in order for it to stay?


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## DNF_Cuber (Nov 24, 2020)

ProStar said:


> I agree. Perhaps add a participation count that a event has to meet in order for it to stay?


lets all get dnfs in curvy copter! we need it to stay!


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## Mike Hughey (Nov 24, 2020)

I think that all of this discussion is worthwhile. I do intend to add a couple of discussion threads (one for adding events, one for removing events) sometime over the next few days to begin this discussion.

I do feel that it was a mistake last year to add 4 events. That was too many; a maximum of 2 per year is plenty, and I will not go over that again in the future. The main reason I did it last year was because I got personally invested in the two that were losing.  I won't make that mistake again. I suppose it can be argued that the third and fourth events being added were actually of some value. Curvy copter allowed an actual jumbling event to be held. If the hardware were not so bad, I suspect there would be a lot more participation there. And speed fewest moves was useful to run in that it showed the event wasn't quite as good an idea as it initially seemed. But I do find it somewhat aesthetically unpleasing to remove events - it gives a sense of imbalance to the database somehow. Still, I have mechanisms for doing it, so it can be done.

My goal will be to have discussions over the next couple of weeks, and then polls to determine the actual changes that finish about a week before the end of the year, so that I have time to implement the changes. I will definitely increase the amount of support required to add new events this year - I think I have been too lenient in the past. I'm still not sure how to handle removing events, but I will at least start the discussion this year, and we can see where that goes.


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## 2018AMSB02 (Nov 24, 2020)

Mike Hughey said:


> I think that all of this discussion is worthwhile. I do intend to add a couple of discussion threads (one for adding events, one for removing events) sometime over the next few days to begin this discussion.
> 
> I do feel that it was a mistake last year to add 4 events. That was too many; a maximum of 2 per year is plenty, and I will not go over that again in the future. The main reason I did it last year was because I got personally invested in the two that were losing.  I won't make that mistake again. I suppose it can be argued that the third and fourth events being added were actually of some value. Curvy copter allowed an actual jumbling event to be held. If the hardware were not so bad, I suspect there would be a lot more participation there. And speed fewest moves was useful to run in that it showed the event wasn't quite as good an idea as it initially seemed. But I do find it somewhat aesthetically unpleasing to remove events - it gives a sense of imbalance to the database somehow. Still, I have mechanisms for doing it, so it can be done.
> 
> My goal will be to have discussions over the next couple of weeks, and then polls to determine the actual changes that finish about a week before the end of the year, so that I have time to implement the changes. I will definitely increase the amount of support required to add new events this year - I think I have been too lenient in the past. I'm still not sure how to handle removing events, but I will at least start the discussion this year, and we can see where that goes.



That’s awesome! I completely understand what you’re saying.


I support removing a few events, especially those with extremely low participation, and adding a few. It does seem that shorter events get higher participation, because doing an average in speed fmc is going to be more of a chore than fun, or at least in my opinion


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## qwr (Nov 24, 2020)

I agree removing cube match and just keeping one relay (2-7) since they overall have low participation.


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## DNF_Cuber (Nov 24, 2020)

qwr said:


> I agree removing cube match and just keeping one relay (2-7) since they overall have low participation.


I say we keep 2-5 and 2-7 but scrap 2-4 and 2-6. Maybe keep 2-4 actually


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## fun at the joy (Nov 24, 2020)

qwr said:


> I agree removing cube match and just keeping one relay (2-7) since they overall have low participation.


why Mts?


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## Mike Hughey (Nov 25, 2020)

This discussion already started on its own in the Changes to the Weekly Competition website thread, and I realized there was no point in putting off the discussion. This thread should be used for discussion about the possibility of dropping events for the Weekly Competition next year.

I posted the following last year; it is still relevant, so I thought I would repeat it here:


> One reason I am hesitant to make changes to the relays is that we have already had churn on this in the past, and I prefer continuity in the weekly competitions if possible. From 2010 through 2016, 2-6 and 2-7 relays were discontinued, and by popular demand, they were brought back in 2017. I wish we had simply left them in place during those years; I certainly don't want this sort of thing to happen again if possible. I feel it's better to move slowly on such changes, especially since the weekly competition doesn't really hurt anyone by being too many events. I prefer to be somewhat slow to add new events, and extremely slow to remove them.



I don't think that participation count is a particularly good way to choose events to drop. As I have said on numerous occasions before, I will not consider dropping 6x6x6 BLD or 7x7x7 BLD, as I consider the existence of those events to be payment for my running the competitions.  As for the other events, there are cases where some important official WCA events (such as FMC) have significantly lower participation than events that probably ought to be considered highest priority for removal (such as the relays). Removing events should probably be more about the events not really contributing to the experience in any significant way. If people are doing events for no other reason than to mark them complete, and no one is really enjoying them, that would be the main reason for dropping an event.

I will go ahead and move posts in the other thread here, to try to keep the discussion collected in one place. I will let this thread run for a week or so, and then, if arguments seem persuasive, possibly come up with a poll to determine votes we might drop. If I decide to consider dropping events this way, I will outline a set of rules by which the decision will be made, and will abide by those rules. Until then, I am interested in hearing any feedback people have for how to best do this.

Please discuss any opinions or ideas on this topic in this thread.


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## ProStar (Nov 25, 2020)

My opinion is that we drop:

2-4 Relay
2-5 Relay
2-6 Relay
3x3 Match

The rest either seem really fun to me personally or I just think are something good for the comp to have


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## Mike Hughey (Nov 25, 2020)

I don't feel as strongly about this as I do some other events, but I admit I would personally vote against dropping match the scramble. To me, it is a significantly different event, and it has a very long history with the Speedsolving.com Weekly Competition, having been run since 2008! It gives our site a claim to longevity with the event that goes well beyond that of the Red Bull competitions, which had an event very similar but with different inspection rules, and I like anything about our weekly competition that gives it a unique history. If demand is overwhelming to drop match the scramble, I suppose I will consider it, but losing it would make me sad.

Also, I almost feel some obligation to keep running match the scramble because it was one of the favorite events of Arnaud van Galen, who was our illustrious member who first started the Weekly Competitions here at Speedsolving.com. In deference to him, I would prefer to keep it.


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## DNF_Cuber (Nov 25, 2020)

ProStar said:


> My opinion is that we drop:
> 
> 2-4 Relay
> 2-5 Relay
> ...


I think we should keep 2-5, but remove speed FMC


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## qwr (Nov 25, 2020)

there isn't a strong argument for dropping any events since at most they take up screen real estate and make the site slightly harder to navigate.
however maybe it's boring for the people who try to do every event. does that give more points? idk.
I don't see the point of relays but they have enough participation to be kept around.

I guess curvy copter with and without jumbling will be popular. maybe we should do a poll.


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## Mike Hughey (Nov 25, 2020)

Some additional information, for what it's worth. Again, I'm not sure this sort of information should be a determining factor in dropping events, but it might be useful to know, if for no other reason than to avoid inaccurate speculations about event popularity.

Number of different people who performed at least one solve in the following events at some time this year (2020) (this list includes all events that are not WCA events except the two that may not be removed by my decree, 6x6x6 BLD and 7x7x7 BLD):
3x3x3 with Feet: 83
3x3x3 Match the Scramble: 152
2-4 Relay: 411
2-5 Relay: 272
2-6 Relay: 156
2-7 Relay: 136
Kilominx: 144
Mini Guildford: 141
Redi Cube: 126
Master Pyraminx: 76
15 Puzzle: 98
Speed Fewest Moves: 79
Mirror Blocks: 157
Curvy Copter: 26

I'll go ahead and throw in here that I'd also really prefer to not remove 3x3x3 with feet. It still feels too early after the WCA removed the event officially - this is a nice outlet for people who lost that, and we had some really good competition between Lim Hung and Jinseo Hong this year, including a better than WR average by Lim Hung. It seems worthwhile to keep on that basis alone.


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## qwr (Nov 25, 2020)

when you put it that way I don't want to remove any events


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## DNF_Cuber (Nov 25, 2020)

qwr said:


> when you put it that way I don't want to remove any events


I still think 2-6 isn't unique at all, so it's not adding anything. That is the one I most want to remove


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## xyzzy (Nov 25, 2020)

ichcubegerne said:


> Relays are ****ing useless. Its just who is the best at the biggest puzzle. And we have these puzzles anyway^^


Squan and clock take up a pretty significant chunk of the time of mini Guildford for me and neither of those is a "big" puzzle, lol.

---

That said, voting again to take out 2-5 and 2-6 relays. 2-4 can stay as something that's beginner friendly; 2-7 is (imo) more interesting since you're solving more different sizes, each with different intricacies. (In theory, 2-8 or 2-9 would be even better, but those would really be too long and hardware quality/availability become issues too.) 2-5 and 2-6 are just redundant in-betweens.

It's a fair point that who _wins_ the 2-x relay events is usually whoever's best at the big cubes, but I still think relays are fun regardless.


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## VIBE_ZT (Nov 25, 2020)

*Glad to see some Curvy Copter love here <3*

Also I can totally agree on some of the stuff being said here. I am always coming back to this weekly competition because I feel like it is unique in so many ways, especially because of the diverse and rather comprehensive selection of events being offered.

And with that being said, I don't actually wish for any event to be removed, simply because the events I personally don't like aren't events that I do. Therefore, I don't see them as just "taking up space" because at on point (like with Speed FMC) there was some real passion and interest in it! Just because I don't personally share said interest doesn't mean I'm going to want to advocate for the removal of it for everyone else.

TL;DR I am personally not going to advocate for the removal of any event as of yet, because I feel that they all have their place.



xyzzy said:


> Squan and clock take up a pretty significant chunk of the time of mini Guildford for me and neither of those is a "big" puzzle, lol.
> 
> ---
> 
> ...



I agree with this a lot.
I will also say that, from a completely non-cubing-related perspective, having that continuity from 2-4 all the way to 2-7 linearly is just... so satisfying.


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## ichcubegerne (Nov 25, 2020)

Everyone just be like "We should remove this event, because I dont like it"...

My opinions:

Remove SpeedFMC: I feel that this has become a pure chore to do when going for completion. Its not adding anything new to the existing FMC event, besides luck to find the good starts and continuations quickly. I feel that anyone, who does/did it seriously agrees with me and the low participation numbers reflect that pretty well.

Remove the Relays (or at least part of them): It just almost purely comes down to the person, who is the best at the biggest puzzle in the relay. Thats it. Is that really an event that brings something new? I dont think so. I feel like all arguments for keeping it are "some people enjoy it", but thats the case for ALL events that exist. If you look at the participation numbers of especially the high relays, youll see that they are considerably lower as for the highest puzzle, and thats a thing to consider, since people who did this puzzle are mostly having the possibility to also do the relay, but choose not to.

To the people that dont want anything removed:
Why do you wanna keep events that no one really enjoys for more than 2 weeks? I feel like a weekly comp should be easily completable in a week, but for doing all non BLD Events and no (Speed)FMC , i need about 4 hours. With (Speed)FMC and small BLD events that gets up 8 hours. Thats not something anyone can easily do in a week, especially since thats pure participation time and no warmup or anything.
And without bragging I am quite fast at bigger cubes, so I am in comparison a pretty quick person in completing the weekly comp. The average cuber would probably take up to 12 hours.



xyzzy said:


> Squan and clock take up a pretty significant chunk of the time of mini Guildford for me and neither of those is a "big" puzzle, lol.
> 
> ---
> 
> ...


I dont consider Guildford to be a Relay tho. I just referenced to Events with "Relay" in their name 
I know thats not the definition, I am fine with guildford. Its some kind of who is a good allrounder at smaller events.



Mike Hughey said:


> Some additional information, for what it's worth. Again, I'm not sure this sort of information should be a determining factor in dropping events, but it might be useful to know, if for no other reason than to avoid inaccurate speculations about event popularity.
> 
> Number of different people who performed at least one solve in the following events at some time this year (2020) (this list includes all events that are not WCA events except the two that may not be removed by my decree, 6x6x6 BLD and 7x7x7 BLD):
> 3x3x3 with Feet: 83
> ...


I would be interested in the additional redoing stat. Like How many different persons competed at least 5/10 times in the respected event


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## EngiNerdBrian (Nov 25, 2020)

I think any event that offers a unique solving challenge should remain regardless of participation levels or WCA status. Match the scramble, feet, & curvy copter are good examples of this idea. IMO 2-4 & 2-7 are valuable and unique; 2-4 promotes speed in the classic sized NxNs & 2-7 conversely rewards big cube speed. IMO 2-5 & 2-6 relays are just filler events between these 2 bounds but people do compete in and enjoy them so I don’t see the harm in keeping them since members of our community enjoy participating in this event.

I don’t think we should limit events based on time or feasibility to compete in every event each week. The fact that there are so many events to choose from is a good concept that promotes and encourages diverse practice for each of us.

I have always viewed the weekly competition as an opportunity to compete in events INDIVIDUALLY and and check my progress/results against others in that single event. I could personally care less about my weekly point total & I’d think our casually competing members & those who want to specialize and not be a fantastic all around elite cuber would feel similarly. I think the more the weekly competition enables participation in any unique event the more valuable the weekly comp is to the community.


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## ichcubegerne (Nov 25, 2020)

EngiNerdBrian said:


> I don’t think we should limit events based on time or feasibility to compete in every event each week. The fact that there are so many events to choose from is a good concept that promotes and encourages diverse practice for each of us.
> 
> I have always viewed the weekly competition as an opportunity to compete in events INDIVIDUALLY and and check my progress/results against others in that single event. I could personally care less about my weekly point total & I’d think our casually competing members & those who want to specialize and not be a fantastic all around elite cuber would feel similarly. I think the more the weekly competition enables participation in any unique event the more valuable the weekly comp is to the community.


Finally someone who can argue that. 

I agree, but that also means that you dont want events with low participation numbers in, correct?


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## abunickabhi (Nov 25, 2020)

I do not feel there is a need to remove any events for the year 2021. Since there were 4 events added in the year 2020, which is a tad too much, we can give a break for 2021 and continue with the existing 34 events. I prefer the formats of some events to be changed though. Making 3BLD/4BLD/5BLD ao5 and Curvy copter mo3.

It is good to know Match the scramble has been the longest running event (since 2008, the creater of SS comps also liked it) and I enjoy participating in it. It is good that 3x3 with Feet continues to exist on the Forum, although I have lost interest to partcipate this year.

Its sad to see only 26 unique participants for curvy copter in the year 2020. I personally have not completely done an ao5 in that event. Adding FTO instead of curvy copter will seem reasonable, or adding it alongside CC(curvy copter) will be good. 15 Puzzle and Mirror blocks are easier for newer cubers to contest in, but SpeedFMC is a bit brainer event and I feel doing it every week is tough on anyone. I can only do speedFMC once in a while as it takes up a lot of my mental energy and resources.

Lastly, I agree with @Mike Hughey , 6BLD and 7BLD should continue even if there is no-show some weeks. In fact, I would love to have these events be made into mo3, so that people like Graham and Enoch can get UWR in those events registered on the SS comp database.

Happy Cubing, U2 F E' F' M F' M' F2 E F' U2 !


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## EngiNerdBrian (Nov 25, 2020)

ichcubegerne said:


> I agree, but that also means that you dont want events with low participation numbers in, correct?


Not necessarily. I think it’s more valuable to have an event that few people compete in than it is costly to the rest of us to have to look at the icon. I’d expect the opposite opinion from those who compete in everything or as many events as possible.

While some events are less desirable/unique than others I just don’t see the real harm in having more events since this comp is digital and there are no physical resources or scheduling restraints.


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## Mike Hughey (Nov 25, 2020)

EngiNerdBrian said:


> I think it’s more valuable to have an event that few people compete in than it is costly to the rest of us to have to look at the icon.


One thing that has occurred to me for the past year or two is that perhaps I should rearrange the icons/event order so that they come closer to following popularity. Perhaps have all official WCA events first, followed by the others in an approximate correlation to their popularity. That would decrease the "pain" of having to look at the icon.


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## xyzzy (Nov 25, 2020)

Mike Hughey said:


> One thing that has occurred to me for the past year or two is that perhaps I should rearrange the icons/event order so that they come closer to following popularity. Perhaps have all official WCA events first, followed by the others in an approximate correlation to their popularity. That would decrease the "pain" of having to look at the icon.


Another idea: what if we get to rearrange the icons to our liking ourselves?


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## Keroma12 (Nov 25, 2020)

I would consider changing the relays to 2-7, 2-4, and 5-7.



Mike Hughey said:


> One thing that has occurred to me for the past year or two is that perhaps I should rearrange the icons/event order so that they come closer to following popularity. Perhaps have all official WCA events first, followed by the others in an approximate correlation to their popularity. That would decrease the "pain" of having to look at the icon.



Maybe the events could be grouped (like, NxNs, Bld, etc.), possibly with a toggle on each group to hide an entire group at once. Although I don't know exactly what the groupings would be.


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## Garf (Nov 25, 2020)

Keep the relays. They are fun. 
Almost to sub-1 on 4x4, so why remove 2-3-4 relay?


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## Mike Hughey (Nov 28, 2020)

ichcubegerne said:


> I would be interested in the additional redoing stat. Like How many different persons competed at least 5/10 times in the respected event


5 times / 10 times in 2020:
3x3x3 with Feet: 15 / 8
3x3x3 Match the Scramble: 28 / 13
2-4 Relay: 149 / 80
2-5 Relay: 96 / 49
2-6 Relay: 49 / 25
2-7 Relay: 44 / 20
Kilominx: 52 / 28
Mini Guildford: 40 / 22
Redi Cube: 57 / 37
Master Pyraminx: 34 / 18
15 Puzzle: 44 / 26
Speed Fewest Moves: 22 / 9
Mirror Blocks: 49 / 23
Curvy Copter: 14 / 9

Thought I would try once sorting by popularity from the previous week (ignoring WCA official status); interesting results. Note 7x7x7 BLD was not included because no one had a success last week; I would obviously need to fix that. I would also obviously not do this; I would put all WCA events first, then the rest by popularity. Still, this is interesting.


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## BenChristman1 (Nov 28, 2020)

Mike Hughey said:


> 5 times / 10 times in 2020:
> 3x3x3 with Feet: 15 / 8
> 3x3x3 Match the Scramble: 28 / 13
> 2-4 Relay: 149 / 80
> ...


I think that all of these are significant enough numbers to keep every event. A lot of “respected” people on the forums are arguing to keep curvy copter (they are likely those 9 people that have competed in it 10+ times), and get rid of Speed FMC, but, as the numbers show, CC and Speed FMC have the 2nd least number of 10 time competitors (feet), so should we really be getting rid of any events?

Sure, there are over 170 competitors a lot of weeks, but how many of them consistently participate every week? I would estimate that number to be 100-120 (this may be way off, I’m not sure). That means that (at the minumum), 7.5% of consistent competitors have competed in CC and Speed FMC 10+ times this year. At Worlds 2019, 52/833 competitors (6.2%) competed in Feet. The event got removed a few months later, and a lot of people were mad. If we remove events from the Weekly Comp, people who didn’t necessarily compete in the removed event(s) will not be happy. It gives more choices. People want to have the choice to do more/different events.

And lastly, there’s the argument that it’s a week-long, online comp, so there is no schedule. There is no good reason to get rid of anything, because if you don’t want to compete in an event, then _don’t do it_.


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## VIBE_ZT (Nov 28, 2020)

BenChristman1 said:


> I think that all of these are significant enough numbers to keep every event. A lot of “respected” people on the forums are arguing to keep curvy copter (they are likely those 9 people that have competed in it 10+ times), and get rid of Speed FMC, but, as the numbers show, CC and Speed FMC have the 2nd least number of 10 time competitors (feet), so should we really be getting rid of any events?
> 
> Sure, there are over 170 competitors a lot of weeks, but how many of them consistently participate every week? I would estimate that number to be 100-120 (this may be way off, I’m not sure). That means that (at the minumum), 7.5% of consistent competitors have competed in CC and Speed FMC 10+ times this year. At Worlds 2019, 52/833 competitors (6.2%) competed in Feet. The event got removed a few months later, and a lot of people were mad. If we remove events from the Weekly Comp, people who didn’t necessarily compete in the removed event(s) will not be happy. It gives more choices. People want to have the choice to do more/different events.
> 
> And lastly, there’s the argument that it’s a week-long, online comp, so there is no schedule. There is no good reason to get rid of anything, because if you don’t want to compete in an event, then _don’t do it_.


I agree with this a lot. It's so true that statistics may not show the full picture, whereas the numbers do.

The way I see it (as one of the people who do CC), there is really no harm in keeping the events that... may not have a lot of competition. For those who don't do them... just skip over them. You literally do not have to compete in them if you don't like them.

I get the idea of not wanting the website just... Chock full of events.... but at this point there are only a few.

And now since only 2 events at absolute most per year are going to be added for the forseeable future, I don't see the need to remove any event as of 2021. That may change in the future, though. We will see.


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## Mike Hughey (Nov 29, 2020)

I think at this point, it seems like the only person on this thread who would be truly disappointed with not removing events is ichcubegerne. Although I respect his opinion very much and would like to make him happy, it seems like there is much justification for keeping almost all of the events for another year, at least.

The one event I still find myself wondering about, though, is speed fewest moves. It was somewhat popular at first, but quickly died off because people seemed to find it a not very interesting event. It was an event that seemed to have a lot of potential, but has apparently not lived up to that potential.

I am inclined at this point to not remove any of the relays this year, unless there is a sudden groundswell to do so from many people on this thread in the next week or so. (But I am open to reconsidering if there is such an interest displayed by numerous people on this thread.)

But I do wonder about speed fewest moves. What are opinions on that event? Is it possible this is simply an event that should not have been added because it is not interesting?


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## Sub1Hour (Nov 29, 2020)

Mike Hughey said:


> I think at this point, it seems like the only person on this thread who would be truly disappointed with not removing events is ichcubegerne. Although I respect his opinion very much and would like to make him happy, it seems like there is much justification for keeping almost all of the events for another year, at least.
> 
> The one event I still find myself wondering about, though, is speed fewest moves. It was somewhat popular at first, but quickly died off because people seemed to find it a not very interesting event. It was an event that seemed to have a lot of potential, but has apparently not lived up to that potential.
> 
> ...


As long as some people find enjoyment in Speed FMC more than people despise it, I say keep it. There aren't too many events quite yet, it's pretty feasible to complete all of the events throughout a week. The weekly comp is far from too full IMO, however, that might not be the case later on.


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## DNF_Cuber (Nov 29, 2020)

Mike Hughey said:


> I think at this point, it seems like the only person on this thread who would be truly disappointed with not removing events is ichcubegerne. Although I respect his opinion very much and would like to make him happy, it seems like there is much justification for keeping almost all of the events for another year, at least.
> 
> The one event I still find myself wondering about, though, is speed fewest moves. It was somewhat popular at first, but quickly died off because people seemed to find it a not very interesting event. It was an event that seemed to have a lot of potential, but has apparently not lived up to that potential.
> 
> ...


I feel like speed fewest moves is something that isn't really worthwhile since you are basically doing a sloppy job of FMC by doing it faster. The best part of FMC in my opinion is being creative and exploring different solutions, which is why Speed FMC isn't much fun by comparison.


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## BenChristman1 (Nov 29, 2020)

Sub1Hour said:


> As long as some people find enjoyment in Speed FMC more than people despise it, I say keep it. There aren't too many events quite yet, it's pretty feasible to complete all of the events throughout a week. The weekly comp is far from too full IMO, however, that might not be the case later on.


I definitely agree. Even though I DNF more attempts than I would care to admit, I very much enjoy all of the attempts that I do.


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## DNF_Cuber (Nov 29, 2020)

DNF_Cuber said:


> I feel like speed fewest moves is something that isn't really worthwhile since you are basically doing a sloppy job of FMC by doing it faster. The best part of FMC in my opinion is being creative and exploring different solutions, which is why Speed FMC isn't much fun by comparison.


I don't think it should be removed, I wasn't clear at all now that I think about it, I was just explaining why it has low participation


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## Kit Clement (Nov 29, 2020)

But who is out there that is enjoying the event? I'm not sure I'm aware of anyone that competes in it regularly and at a reasonable skill level for the enjoyment of the event rather than going for a new profile event or completing as many events in a week. As the proposer of the event, I think it definitely had a lot of potential, but it has turned out to be an event that doesn't reward intuition but instead being lucky enough to go down the right path first. I had also thought that it might promote more varieties of solving methods at a high level, but with DR becoming so fast for those at a high level, the best at speedFMC probably would just do DR every time too.

I don't know if there's a way to fix the event through the scoring method or some other modification, but as it stands, I think it really ended up being kind of a dud event for me after the first few months. And I'm not aware of anyone else that ended up gaining enthusiasm for the event either.

I'm really glad we tried it (and very thankful for Mike laboring through getting the website set up to handle this strange event!), as we learned a lot about how to make an event that rewards both speed and efficiency. But I think that in reality, the best way to combine these now is via linear FMC on bluetooth cubes, which is not conducive to an online competition without an app regulating the solve and scanning for cheaters.


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## qwr (Nov 29, 2020)

wait we care about cheaters? how do you even catch them


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## Deleted member 54663 (Nov 29, 2020)

qwr said:


> wait we care about cheaters? how do you even catch them


well it just ruins the fun for them


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## ichcubegerne (Dec 2, 2020)

I am fine with keeping the relays^^ Its costing me like 20 minutes to do them all at most. I just feel that good allrounders wannt and deserve their chance at competing in every event, to not lose a pb chance. But as it is now, it costs a LOT of time to do that. For reference: Abhijeet did a Relay of the weekly comp that took 4hours. Now take into account that he didnt do MBF,FMC,SpeedFMC,Curvy,Feet,HugeBLD and that he is very decent in all events, so there are barely any people getting the comp done as fast. If you wanna take your time and do all events besides HugeBLD, you can be sure that it takes more than 10 hours. I feel like that is already a lot of time and I would hate to see it get more for useless events that no one enjoys like SpeedFMC, just because some people say "Lets not remove events, I have no arguments but some people might enjoy it"


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## BenChristman1 (Dec 2, 2020)

ichcubegerne said:


> I am fine with keeping the relays^^ Its costing me like 20 minutes to do them all at most. I just feel that good allrounders wannt and deserve their chance at competing in every event, to not lose a pb chance. But as it is now, it costs a LOT of time to do that. For reference: Abhijeet did a Relay of the weekly comp that took 4hours. Now take into account that he didnt do MBF,FMC,SpeedFMC,Curvy,Feet,HugeBLD and that he is very decent in all events, so there are barely any people getting the comp done as fast. If you wanna take your time and do all events besides HugeBLD, you can be sure that it takes more than 10 hours. I feel like that is already a lot of time and I would hate to see it get more for useless events that no one enjoys like SpeedFMC, just because some people say "Lets not remove events, I have no arguments but some people might enjoy it"


10 hours < 1 week (168 hours)

There is NO GOOD REASON to remove everything because there is plenty of time to do every event.


ichcubegerne said:


> no one enjoys like SpeedFMC


Unless you’ve talked to every member that has competed in Speed FMC, you can’t say that. You haven’t talked to me, so I know for a fact that you haven’t.


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## Mike Hughey (Dec 2, 2020)

BenChristman1 said:


> Unless you’ve talked to every member that has competed in Speed FMC, you can’t say that. You haven’t talked to me, so I know for a fact that you haven’t.


Yes, but I guess I am at least asking: does anyone actually enjoy Speed FMC? I haven't seen any actual evidence that anyone does. I have found that I prefer doing regular FMC fast to doing speed FMC.


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## BenChristman1 (Dec 2, 2020)

Mike Hughey said:


> Yes, but I guess I am at least asking: does anyone actually enjoy Speed FMC? I haven't seen any actual evidence that anyone does. I have found that I prefer doing regular FMC fast to doing speed FMC.


I enjoy it. I’m probably the only one, though.


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## tx789 (Dec 3, 2020)

BenChristman1 said:


> 10 hours < 1 week (168 hours)
> 
> There is NO GOOD REASON to remove everything because there is plenty of time to do every event.


Maybe for you. Some people will have commitments that mean they might only have a few hours to cube. So this agrument isn't very good. 


However removing something makes sense if almost no one does it.


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## BenChristman1 (Dec 3, 2020)

tx789 said:


> Maybe for you. Some people will have commitments that mean they might only have a few hours to cube. So this agrument isn't very good.


I could start an argument about commitments and time management, but I’m not going to do that.


tx789 said:


> However removing something makes sense if almost no one does it.


Give me a number. How many people should do an event to remove it? Based on the stats that Mike shared earlier, if we remove SpeedFMC, we should remove Curvy Copter and Feet as well, but nobody’s saying anything about either of those events being removed.


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## Nir1213 (Dec 3, 2020)

tx789 said:


> Maybe for you. Some people will have commitments that mean they might only have a few hours to cube. So this agrument isn't very good.
> 
> 
> However removing something makes sense if almost no one does it.


some people might like the event, its better to keep an event than to remove it, as it doesnt really do anything except hurt the people who like the event.


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## Kit Clement (Dec 3, 2020)

Speed FMC has had 1, 0, 2, 1 and 2 competitors compete in the last five completed weeks. It may have decent participation numbers from this year as Mike has shown, but there were 10-40 people doing the event each of the first 5 weeks or so that are likely to boost that quite a bit. If it's simple to generate, I'd be interested to see weekly participation in that event over each week of this year, maybe compared to events like Feet or Curvy Copter.


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## tx789 (Dec 3, 2020)

Nir1213 said:


> some people might like the event, its better to keep an event than to remove it, as it doesnt really do anything except hurt the people who like the event.


But that could be like 2 people.


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## xyzzy (Dec 3, 2020)

Mike Hughey said:


> Yes, but I guess I am at least asking: does anyone actually enjoy Speed FMC? I haven't seen any actual evidence that anyone does. I have found that I prefer doing regular FMC fast to doing speed FMC.


I… kind of like it? I'm just too lazy to actually do it (or even normal FMC) regularly.


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## One Wheel (Dec 4, 2020)

Just a couple of comments: 

Relays: are fun. There's a fair argument to be made that 2-6 doesn't really add much, although I enjoy that relay probably the most. I would be very interested in adding a 5-7 relay if there was interest in adding a different one.

Feet: I would compete more, but it ends up being frustrating timing with my phone. I should pick up a proper stack mat and I would probably compete every week. I believe the event has a lot of value, and it was a great mistake for the WCA to drop it, I would be deeply disappointed if it were to disappear from the WC.

Curvy copter: I would like better hardware, I need to replace the stickers on my puzzle, that much is all on me. Scrambling is a little frustrating, it would be helpful to add some line breaks in the scrambles to make them easier to read. I suggest formatting like this if possible: 

Current format: 
UR UL UB UR UB UR UF UL UF UB UR LB UL UF LB RF UR RF UR UF UL UB UR UF LB UB UR RB UB LF UF UR UB UL UF RF UR UB UL LF UF LF DB LB DB DL LB DF LF DL DR DB UB- LF- UL UB+ LF+ UF+ LB+ UL UF- LB- UL+ RB+ UB UL- RB- LB UF+ LB+ UL UF- LB- UL+ DF+ LF UL- DF- DL DB UF+ DR+ RF UF- DR- UF LF LB+ DR+ DB LB- DR- LB UL+2 LB UL-2 LF-2 DB+ RB UR DL+2 LF+2 DL LF UF+ RF+2 UF RF UF+2 RF+ UR RF UR+ LF+ UF LF+2 RB+

Better format:
UR UL UB UR UB UR UF UL UF UB UR LB UL UF LB RF UR RF UR UF UL UB UR UF LB UB UR RB UB LF UF UR UB UL UF RF UR UB UL LF UF LF DB LB DB DL LB DF LF DL DR DB 
UB- LF- UL UB+ LF+ 
UF+ LB+ UL UF- LB- 
UL+ RB+ UB UL- RB- 
LB 
UF+ LB+ UL UF- LB- 
UL+ DF+ LF UL- DF- 
DL DB 
UF+ DR+ RF UF- DR- 
UF LF 
LB+ DR+ DB LB- DR- 
LB UL+2 LB UL-2 LF-2 DB+ RB UR DL+2 LF+2 DL LF UF+ RF+2 UF RF UF+2 RF+ UR RF UR+ LF+ UF LF+2 RB+


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## abunickabhi (Apr 7, 2021)

ichcubegerne said:


> I am fine with keeping the relays^^ Its costing me like 20 minutes to do them all at most. I just feel that good allrounders wannt and deserve their chance at competing in every event, to not lose a pb chance. But as it is now, it costs a LOT of time to do that. For reference: Abhijeet did a Relay of the weekly comp that took 4hours. Now take into account that he didnt do MBF,FMC,SpeedFMC,Curvy,Feet,HugeBLD and that he is very decent in all events, so there are barely any people getting the comp done as fast. If you wanna take your time and do all events besides HugeBLD, you can be sure that it takes more than 10 hours. I feel like that is already a lot of time and I would hate to see it get more for useless events that no one enjoys like SpeedFMC, just because some people say "Lets not remove events, I have no arguments but some people might enjoy it"


I did do 2 cube MBLD, and memoed for 6BLD. Will do FMCs, 7BLD, FTO, CC in my next speedrun too.
https://www.speedsolving.com/threads/speedrun-setup-for-all-ss-events.80102/ is where I will be updating about the future speedruns of weekly comps.


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