# Regulations regarding timer malfunctions



## Genie1048 (Sep 26, 2008)

This may just be disregarded by everyone, but if a timer starts and then stops at 0.02, which is the timer timing out, I think that the person who is solving should be able to start over if they haven't made any turns before realizing this. 0.02 is really unlikely to be caused by someone by accident, I've been trying for a while now to get 0.02 to be displayed on a stackmat, but I'm yet to have achieved that. The amendment to the WCA regulation would be something like:

If a competitor's timer starts and then malfunctions, displaying a time of 0.02 seconds, the competitor may restart the solve if they have not altered the state of the puzzle they are solving before realizing the malfunction in the timer. If the time is 0.03 seconds and above, the solve is a DNF.

This is just my two-cents worth on this, I don't mind really if the regulation changes or not, but I just see a lot of people get easy scrambles and then the timer times out, which is just sad to see missed oppurtunity.


Anthony


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## Mike Hughey (Sep 26, 2008)

Erik once said that 0.02 was easy to get on a stackmat:
http://www.speedsolving.com/forum/showpost.php?p=29179&postcount=9


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## Carson (Sep 26, 2008)

I just did a "how quickly can you stop the timer" average of twelve.

A couple 0.03's
one 0.02 and
the rest were 0.05 and 0.06


I recently purchased a new timer. I am getting the 0.02 a lot when I solve... I don't think I had ever had this happen until I got my new timer. I'm honestly thinking there may be a glitch.


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## Genie1048 (Sep 26, 2008)

I believe that there is in fact a glitch, it's impossible to stop the timer on 0.02, for your reaction time and the timers reaction time combined are finitely fast

I wonder if stackmat the company can provide insight to this


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## Genie1048 (Sep 26, 2008)

Mike Hughey said:


> Erik once said that 0.02 was easy to get on a stackmat:
> http://www.speedsolving.com/forum/showpost.php?p=29179&postcount=9



but he may be using a different timer than supplied, maybe in competition, for there are many stackmat timer variants, possibly with different minimum times, software, etc.


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## Ton (Sep 26, 2008)

Genie1048 said:


> This may just be disregarded by everyone, but if a timer starts and then stops at 0.02, which is the timer timing out, I think that the person who is solving should be able to start over if they haven't made any turns before realizing this. 0.02 is really unlikely to be caused by someone by accident, I've been trying for a while now to get 0.02 to be displayed on a stackmat, but I'm yet to have achieved that. The amendment to the WCA regulation would be something like:
> 
> If a competitor's timer starts and then malfunctions, displaying a time of 0.02 seconds, the competitor may restart the solve if they have not altered the state of the puzzle they are solving before realizing the malfunction in the timer. If the time is 0.03 seconds and above, the solve is a DNF.
> 
> Anthony



Well the timer can malfunction, especially when the battery is low, in the EC Oliver and Gilles had a timer malfunction , it just stopped. We know the timer is not perfect, so I DNF only if a competitor resets the timer -by accident- or sometimes they just push the bottom.


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## Pedro (Sep 26, 2008)

how does the judge make sure the competitor didn't do any moves?

I don't think "stopping" the timer at 0.xx is the competitors fault...sometimes you just change the pressure on your hands (unconciously) and it starts and stops...there's a video of Ryan Patricio getting a 0.32 at youtube...

I think it's fair to give an extra attempt.

of course, if it happens too much, a DNF can be applied


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## Genie1048 (Sep 26, 2008)

Pedro said:


> how does the judge make sure the competitor didn't do any moves?
> 
> I don't think "stopping" the timer at 0.xx is the competitors fault...sometimes you just change the pressure on your hands (unconciously) and it starts and stops...there's a video of Ryan Patricio getting a 0.32 at youtube...
> 
> ...



the display stops and the competitor keeps going

I got DNF'ed on a really easy OH solve, because of a timer malfunction, so not everyone just lets the competitor start over; Dan Knights was the one who decreed it


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## Stefan (Sep 26, 2008)

How I got 0.02 seconds 30 times in a row:
http://www.worldcubeassociation.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=369


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## Genie1048 (Sep 26, 2008)

StefanPochmann said:


> How I got 0.02 seconds 30 times in a row:
> http://www.worldcubeassociation.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=369



I just get a denied access page, requiring a password and username, which i don't believe I have


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## KConny (Sep 26, 2008)

Genie1048 said:


> StefanPochmann said:
> 
> 
> > How I got 0.02 seconds 30 times in a row:
> ...



Hit register or just take Stefans word for it, and mine, and Eriks, it really is easy to get 0.02.

And you will never notice that the timer stoped at 0.02 before you make your first turn. Atleats I won't since I try to keep my eyes on the cube.


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## Stefan (Sep 26, 2008)

Apparently three of the WCA's subforums require login. Don't know whether that's intentional. I've mailed Ron to find out.


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## Genie1048 (Sep 26, 2008)

Well, regardless, I always notice because I look at the timer to make sure the green light goes on, and you'd notice 0.02 immediately, because keep in mind that 0.02 seconds is not a lot of time


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## rjohnson_8ball (Sep 26, 2008)

When I try to register, I get the error:

```
The e-mail address you entered is not allowed to be used.
Please note that you will need to enter a valid e-mail
address before your account is activated.
You will receive an e-mail at the address you provide
that contains an account activation link.
```
when I try to use my main email, *[email protected]*. Are you saying an underscore is invalid? I have been using this address for years.


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## BinomDreher (Sep 26, 2008)

@rjohnson: It's most likely because of yahoo (the email provider) - some registration processes dont allow such "anonymous" email adresses. 
I'd also like to see how Stefan could make it 30 times in a row though^^

EDIT: I've got the same problem with my @web.de adress (even though those are not even anonymous) *grml*


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## rjohnson_8ball (Sep 26, 2008)

@BinomDreher: Well, I pay good money for my Yahoo Premium account -- no advertisements, unlimited storage, etc. I try to limit all my email to one account to avoid confusion. I don't really want to have to use my work email account.

This is a mistake that WCA must fix, in my opinion.

They got the CAPTCHA gizmo. That should be good enough to keep out spammers.

EDIT: I just contacted WCA about this.

ANOTHER EDIT: Ron fixed the problem, yay!
@BinomDreher, do you want to try again?


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## Genie1048 (Sep 26, 2008)

stefan> could you just copy and paste what's there here?


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## shelley (Sep 26, 2008)

There are two types of Gen 2 Stackmat timers. The older ones can stop at a minimum of 0.03 seconds. The newer ones (they have the time/date displays and buttons to store and recall times) can stop at 0.02.

When a 0.02 or 0.03 happens in competition the competitor is given an extra solve (with a new scramble), regardless of whether they have started manipulating the puzzle. We regard a 0.0x as a timer malfunction, not the competitor's fault.


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## Dene (Sep 26, 2008)

As far as I'm concerned, if you aren't pressing down firmly enough to start with, you don't deserve a re-solve. If you are pressing down firmly enough you shouldn't have any problems.


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## Genie1048 (Sep 27, 2008)

shelley said:


> There are two types of Gen 2 Stackmat timers. The older ones can stop at a minimum of 0.03 seconds. The newer ones (they have the time/date displays and buttons to store and recall times) can stop at 0.02.
> 
> When a 0.02 or 0.03 happens in competition the competitor is given an extra solve (with a new scramble), regardless of whether they have started manipulating the puzzle. We regard a 0.0x as a timer malfunction, not the competitor's fault.



When did this become official?
Is it official?


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## Genie1048 (Sep 27, 2008)

Dene said:


> As far as I'm concerned, if you aren't pressing down firmly enough to start with, you don't deserve a re-solve. If you are pressing down firmly enough you shouldn't have any problems.



I'm talking about non-operator related issues, like glitches. It says on the back of the timer that "this device must accept any interference received, including interference that may cause undesired operation"


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## shelley (Sep 27, 2008)

You can do everything right but the timer can still have problems. This has become more evident at recent Caltech/Berkeley competitions as our timers are getting old. We've even found that some timers could be started/stopped using only one hand. In fact, one of our timers (which we've since stopped using) registers your hand if it's just hovering over the sensor pad and not even touching it. 0.03's and 0.02's were common with that timer.


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## Hepheron (Sep 27, 2008)

I got a DNF because of my timer...


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## hawkmp4 (Sep 27, 2008)

As I recall we were having some problems with timers at Boulder, but I don't remember what the problems were or how they were fixed, I was doing Megaminx at the time. I think it was similar to this though...


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## Carson (Sep 27, 2008)

Dene said:


> As far as I'm concerned, if you aren't pressing down firmly enough to start with, you don't deserve a re-solve. If you are pressing down firmly enough you shouldn't have any problems.



When I get 0.02's with my personals timer, it is AS I am picking up my hands from the timer. It doesn't matter how hard you press, as you are releasing the timer, you are gradually putting less and less pressure on it until you are no longer making contact. This happens very quickly... but I believe the glitch has something to do with that.


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## hawkmp4 (Sep 27, 2008)

Has anyone talked to speedstacks about this?


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## Ron (Sep 27, 2008)

> Has anyone talked to speedstacks about this?


Yes, of course. Hopefully they will make a new version without the problem.


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## TimMc (Sep 27, 2008)

Ron said:


> Yes, of course. Hopefully they will make a new version without the problem.



In the event that they do upgrade the timers, will old ones become redundant?

Tim.


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## clement (Sep 27, 2008)

Some old stackmats don't stop below 0.32. I find it clever, and I wonder why this has been dropped down.


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## fanwuq (Sep 27, 2008)

I'm not experienced with using stackmat timers at all. I got a DNF because the timer didn't start for pyraminx. Why can't we just use computer timers like CCT at competitions?


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## Bryan (Sep 27, 2008)

fanwuq said:


> I'm not experienced with using stackmat timers at all. I got a DNF because the timer didn't start for pyraminx. Why can't we just use computer timers like CCT at competitions?



Believe it or not, trying to haul a ton of computers to a competition is rather difficult, and it's more expensive. I would be willing to be if someone used computers and someone used Stackmat timers, that over the course of the year, the computers would have many many more problems.


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## hawkmp4 (Sep 27, 2008)

Ron said:


> > Has anyone talked to speedstacks about this?
> 
> 
> Yes, of course. Hopefully they will make a new version without the problem.


I didn't mean to sound condescending. It was just never mentioned. Sorry if I came off that way.
Could something be placed over the pads themselves to make the timer less sensitive? I'm not entirely sure how the timers actually work but I thought I'd throw that out there.


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## fanwuq (Sep 27, 2008)

Bryan said:


> fanwuq said:
> 
> 
> > I'm not experienced with using stackmat timers at all. I got a DNF because the timer didn't start for pyraminx. Why can't we just use computer timers like CCT at competitions?
> ...



Ok, I can see that. But is using a computer a legal option if you choose to bring your own laptop?


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## Ton (Sep 27, 2008)

fanwuq said:


> Ok, I can see that. But is using a computer a legal option if you choose to bring your own laptop?



1st not practical, how must I arrange a competition with 12 timers? Like to EC?
2nd I do not think we use the same starting and stopping procedure, like stopping and starting with two hands.
3th a laptop will hide a competitor for an audience , especially on a stage 
4th we need to add some wire to an external display, not practical if a competitor only use his own laptap


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## PCwizCube (Sep 27, 2008)

shelley said:


> There are two types of Gen 2 Stackmat timers. The older ones can stop at a minimum of 0.03 seconds. The newer ones (they have the time/date displays and buttons to store and recall times) can stop at 0.02.


I wouldn't call them "old" and "new" Generation 2 Stackmat timers. 

The ones where you can set the date and save times are the ones you buy individually at http://www.speedstacks.com. (You can get them here and here). 

The ones that can only time yourself are the ones you get at retail stores that come with the Speedstacks cups.


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## shelley (Sep 27, 2008)

Stopping a Stackmat is different from stopping a timer on the computer with the spacebar. We want everyone on a level playing field. That doesn't happen when one competitor has to stop the timer with both hands flat on a Stackmat and another can stop it by pressing the spacebar with one finger.

I call the Stackmats "old" and "new" because for a while they only had the type without time saving capabilities. The ones I call "new" came out more recently.


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## Genie1048 (Sep 27, 2008)

fanwuq said:


> I'm not experienced with using stackmat timers at all. I got a DNF because the timer didn't start for pyraminx. Why can't we just use computer timers like CCT at competitions?



That would crowd everything up with computers everywhere


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## Genie1048 (Sep 27, 2008)

Rubik's Cube Fan said:


> shelley said:
> 
> 
> > There are two types of Gen 2 Stackmat timers. The older ones can stop at a minimum of 0.03 seconds. The newer ones (they have the time/date displays and buttons to store and recall times) can stop at 0.02.
> ...



actually, the stackmats in retail stores now can store the date and time, my friend got one recently that could do that from the store


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## Genie1048 (Sep 27, 2008)

Regardless, you can get a bad timer, and apparently, people have been DNF'ed by their judge and people have gotten to start over. THERE NEEDS TO BE CONSISTENCY AND ESTABLISHED PROCEDURE!!!!!!!


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## hawkmp4 (Sep 27, 2008)

I think this is turning into something that should be taken up with the WCA on their forum, now. We can't do too much about the regulations here.


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## cubejunkies (Sep 27, 2008)

I agree, but Genie1048 really can't do much without a wca username and password, he needs connections


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## hawkmp4 (Sep 27, 2008)

Or...*GASP*
He could do what everyone else does...and REGISTER for the the forum!
=D
Brilliant!


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## cubejunkies (Sep 27, 2008)

but from what i see, he can't for reasons out of his control


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## hawkmp4 (Sep 27, 2008)

What's the issue? rjohnson says he talked to Ron about the email thing and the problem is fixed.


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## cubejunkies (Sep 27, 2008)

i guess he hasn't tried yet or something


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## hawkmp4 (Sep 27, 2008)

Not my problem then, its his. I think the mods can safely close this thread now.


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## cubejunkies (Sep 27, 2008)

what, but the problem still hasn't been solved, stefan just distracted us in saying how he kept on getting 0.02, most of this thread has revolved around problems in seeing that


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## hawkmp4 (Sep 28, 2008)

Yeah, but we can't do anything about it here, this needs to be taken up in the WCA forum. We cannot write or change WCA rules and that's what we need to fix this problem.


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## Stefan (Sep 28, 2008)

cubejunkies said:


> what, but the problem still hasn't been solved, stefan just distracted us in saying how he kept on getting 0.02, most of this thread has revolved around problems in seeing that


Sorry about that, didn't know about the access problem, but Ron fixed that quickly. And if you look further than just that thread's first message, you'll see the discussion about the regulations and how they're followed.


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## cubejunkies (Sep 28, 2008)

ohhhhh I see, yeah this thread can be closed now


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## blah (Sep 28, 2008)

cubejunkies said:


> I agree, but Genie1048 really can't do much without a wca username and password, he needs connections





cubejunkies said:


> but from what i see, he can't for reasons out of his control





cubejunkies said:


> i guess he hasn't tried yet or something



This is just priceless


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## cubejunkies (Sep 28, 2008)

blah said:


> cubejunkies said:
> 
> 
> > I agree, but Genie1048 really can't do much without a wca username and password, he needs connections
> ...



What? Dude, c'mon, I already confessed to my duality lol


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## McWizzle94 (Sep 28, 2008)

cubejunkies said:


> blah said:
> 
> 
> > cubejunkies said:
> ...



That made me lol =]


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## hawkmp4 (Sep 28, 2008)

lmao, yes...pricelesssss.
The more he talks the more laughable the threads get.


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