# Should pillowed puzzles be allowed for competition use?



## Carrot (Oct 22, 2011)

Hello speedcubers. At the world championships Uwe Meffert introduced me to this pillowed pyraminx, which led to a discussion among some people about whether it should be allowed in competition or not.

So I just want to hear your opinions about what the rules should be for pillowed puzzles, as of right now, the only allowed pillowed puzzle is the 7x7x7. (According to Ron van Bruchem)

Chris Krueger said something like this at Worlds while eating dinner "I think there should be a rule stating that all puzzles but 3x3x3 should be allowed to have a pillowed shape"

The puzzles so far I have heard about being produced in a pillowed shape is: 2x2x2, 3x3x3, 4x4x4, 5x5x5 7x7x7 and pyraminx

As far as I am concerned, the thing about pillowed puzzles are that you need to rotate it less to see some of the stickers, but on the other hand, you need to rotate it even more to see some other stickers.

Feel free to discuss why you think it should not be allowed or it should be allowed.


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## Petezorzz (Oct 22, 2011)

I reckon they should be allowed...
I don't even get why they are comp illegal. It should be your choice of what cube you want to use, if you bring a pillowed cube then you can see around the sides to other colours which gives you an advantage. If you choose to bring a cubic cube, then your loss.

Pick pillowed cube,
Bring to competition
= Profit


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## CRO (Oct 22, 2011)

Odder said:


> The puzzles so far I have heard about being produced in a pillowed shape is: 2x2x2, 3x3x3, (4x4x4? 6x6x6?) 7x7x7 and pyraminx


 
QJ has 4x4 and 5x5 pillowed, and only pillowed 6x6 is Diansheng KO.

I think they souldn't be allowed.


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## MadeToReply (Oct 22, 2011)

its not like the pillowed version makes the cube faster but it just lets you see more side so a better recognition so why not?
i mean just because you can see most of the side,can you use it as an advantage or will you just be focusing on the colours you can see more of.

So i agree that they should be allowed.


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## aaronb (Oct 22, 2011)

Petezorzz said:


> I reckon they should be allowed...
> I don't even get why they are comp illegal. It should be your choice of what cube you want to use, if you bring a pillowed cube then you can see around the sides to other colours which gives you an advantage. If you choose to bring a cubic cube, then your loss.
> 
> Pick pillowed cube,
> ...


 


MadeToReply said:


> its not like the pillowed version makes the cube faster but it just lets you see more side so a better recognition so why not?
> i mean just because you can see most of the side,can you use it as an advantage or will you just be focusing on the colours you can see more of.



Sticker-less cubes fall into the same category in my opinion. I mean, you can see more stickers, but will you really use it to your advantage? I think that if you can see more of the cube than another person, then it shouldn't be allowed. Even if 99% of people won't try to cheat/use it to their advantage, you will always get those few people, who try to get an unfair advantage.

I think pillowed cubes should be competition-illegal, except for the 7x7, which, I'm kind of neutral on, and wouldn't wind if the pillowed version went competition-illegal, or stayed like how it is now. All rules are there for a reason, and if (like you claim) pillowed cubes except 7x7 are illegal, and sticker-less cubes are illegal, then they shall remain illegal. Even if there is only a slight chance of it being benefited from, it will still eventually be exploited.


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## Tim Major (Oct 22, 2011)

Odder being serious?
the ****

On a serious note, I say they should be allowed because the 777 is allowed. I would prefer they're not allowed because it is an advantage, but the 777 was allowed so it'd be inconsistent not to be.


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## Ickenicke (Oct 22, 2011)

No!

Maybe the 6x6 had could be allowed but no smaller cubes, and absolutely not the 3x3!


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## Kirjava (Oct 22, 2011)

Tim Major said:


> I would prefer they're not allowed because it is an advantage


 
Do you think there is anyone that is faster on a pillowed cube than a non pillowed cube?


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## Tim Major (Oct 22, 2011)

Kirjava said:


> Do you think there is anyone that is faster on a pillowed cube than a non pillowed cube?


 
No, but that's because pillowed cubes don't turn as well. Pillowed ZhanChi > ZhanChi if you were used to it.
The pyra odder is talking about is actually good.


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## Tim Major (Oct 22, 2011)

Kirjava said:


> Do you think there is anyone that is faster on a pillowed cube than a non pillowed cube?


 
No, but that's because pillowed cubes don't turn as well. Pillowed ZhanChi > ZhanChi if you were used to it.
The pyra odder is talking about is actually good.


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## MadeToReply (Oct 22, 2011)

btw tim thnx for the cubes they came bout a month ago?? and there really good out of the box cept the dayan mf8 but overall good cubes i might get a sq-1.


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## bobthegiraffemonkey (Oct 22, 2011)

I've never really understood this. If everyone can use pillowed/transparent/stickerless cubes in competition, how is it even possible to get an unfair advantage? It would still be a level playing field, just with more puzzles available. I say they should all be legal. Unless I'm missing something?


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## Kirjava (Oct 22, 2011)

Tim Major said:


> No, but that's because pillowed cubes don't turn as well.


 
So you don't get an advantage by using them.


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## MadeToReply (Oct 22, 2011)

bobthegiraffemonkey said:


> I've never really understood this. If everyone can use pillowed/transparent/stickerless cubes in competition, how is it even possible to get an unfair advantage? It would still be a level playing field, just with more puzzles available. I say they should all be legal. Unless I'm missing something?


 
But some people would be able to use the extra look ahead and most prob cant i know i wouldnt and it would be unfair for some else to use it vsing someone who cant
but still i think they should kinda be allowed


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## bobthegiraffemonkey (Oct 22, 2011)

MadeToReply said:


> But some people would be able to use the extra look ahead and most prob cant i know i wouldnt and it would be unfair for some else to use it vsing someone who cant
> but still i think they should kinda be allowed


 
Am I understanding wrong, or do you think that being better at cubing is an unfair advantage?


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## aaronb (Oct 22, 2011)

Kirjava said:


> Tim Major said:
> 
> 
> > No, but that's because pillowed cubes don't turn as well.
> ...



But what happens when pillowed cubes DO turn as well as cubic cubes? When we do have good pillowed cubes available, then they will give you an advantage. So I still think they should be competition-illegal.


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## MadeToReply (Oct 22, 2011)

bobthegiraffemonkey said:


> Am I understanding wrong, or do you think that being better at cubing is an unfair advantage?


 
now that i think about that you are right so i guess they could be allowed(wait i said they could be allowed...)


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## Kirjava (Oct 22, 2011)

aaronb said:


> But what happens when pillowed cubes DO turn as well as cubic cubes?


 
They won't. 

They don't turn as well /because/ they're pillowed.


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## asportking (Oct 22, 2011)

I don't want them to be allowed, just because it sort of goes against the spirit of the competition. It's supposed to be a rubik's CUBE, not a rubik's round-ish square. 7x7 would be allowed, of course, but it pillowed 3x3's are legal, what's there to stop ball-shaped 3x3's from becoming legal as well?


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## Cubetastic (Oct 22, 2011)

I believe they should be allowed, but not in the same division of usual 3x3 speed. There should be a seperate competition like Pillowed Speed for the slight unfair advantage when seeing the other edge piece colour.


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## aaronb (Oct 22, 2011)

Cubetastic said:


> I believe they should be allowed, but not in the same division of usual 3x3 speed. There should be a seperate competition like Pillowed Speed for the slight unfair advantage when seeing the other edge piece colour.


 
The last thing we need at the moment is seven new events. People have a hard time accepting 1 new event, let alone 7.


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## Kirjava (Oct 22, 2011)

Cubetastic said:


> There should be a seperate competition like Pillowed Speed


 
I'm starting to worry about the future state of the cubing community.


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## Cubetastic (Oct 22, 2011)

aaronb said:


> The last thing we need at the moment is seven new events. People have a hard time accepting 1 new event, let alone 7.


 
I see, I was not aware of the current state on decision of new events of the people in the cubing community. But if it ever is allowed i believe it shouldn't be associated with normal 3x3 events, for the higher order cubes since the slight pillow effect takes into account maybe seeing one or two extra edge pieces.


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## Carrot (Oct 22, 2011)

Tim Major said:


> I say they should be allowed because the 777 is allowed. I would prefer they're not allowed because it is an advantage, but the 777 was allowed so it'd be inconsistent not to be.



I agree with this, I really don't see why there should be any inconsistents in the regulations, just because a manufactor does not produce a specific product (in this case a non-pillowed 7x7x7) so either the regulations should allow other puzzles to be it aswell, or we should just make pillowed 7x7x7s illegal because you get an unfair advantage for PLL



Kirjava said:


> Do you think there is anyone that is faster on a pillowed cube than a non pillowed cube?



7x7x7... and that one is competition legal.



bobthegiraffemonkey said:


> I've never really understood this. If everyone can use pillowed/transparent/stickerless cubes in competition, how is it even possible to get an unfair advantage? It would still be a level playing field, just with more puzzles available. I say they should all be legal. Unless I'm missing something?



I'm sharing the same opinion as you, even though I see that from an outsider's point of view it would be weird to see pillowed puzzles when they originally wasn't. which is what asportking describes:


asportking said:


> I don't want them to be allowed, just because it sort of goes against the spirit of the competition. It's supposed to be a rubik's CUBE, not a rubik's round-ish square. 7x7 would be allowed, of course, but it pillowed 3x3's are legal, what's there to stop ball-shaped 3x3's from becoming legal as well?



Btw guys, we are not only talking about cuboid puzzles.


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## Kirjava (Oct 22, 2011)

Odder said:


> 7x7x7... and that one is competition legal.


 
Who owns a pillowed and non pillowed 7x7x7 and prefers to use the pillowed one?


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## Carrot (Oct 22, 2011)

Kirjava said:


> *Who owns a* pillowed and *non pillowed 7x7x7* and prefers to use the pillowed one?


 
I don't know, but I guess someone has made one themself?


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## MadeToReply (Oct 22, 2011)

is there a non pillowed 7x7 because i thought they made it pilliowed so the corners would stay in and now fall out


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## Kirjava (Oct 22, 2011)

Odder said:


> I don't know, but I guess someone has made one themself?


 
So how do you know that people are faster on a pillowed 7x7x7 if no comparison can be properly made?


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## asportking (Oct 22, 2011)

MadeToReply said:


> is there a non pillowed 7x7 because i thought they made it pilliowed so the corners would stay in and now fall out


The corners would fall out if the 7x7 was non-proportional (supposedly), but I think it was just pillowed for stability.


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## Carrot (Oct 22, 2011)

asportking said:


> The corners would fall out if the 7x7 was non-proportional (supposedly), but I think it was just pillowed for stability.


 
The simplest way to solve this problem is just to put on some extra plastic on the outer pieces (making the pieces funny sizes)

Kirjava, Because I like pancakes with peanutbutter!


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## Hershey (Oct 22, 2011)

MadeToReply said:


> is there a non pillowed 7x7 because i thought they made it pilliowed so the corners would stay in and now fall out


 
Yes, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBXOFm0GxIQ.


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## asportking (Oct 22, 2011)

The 7x7 is allowed to be pillowed because the only mass-produced 7x7's are pillowed. Sure, it is possible to make a cubic 7x7, but when you have a cube that large, a pillowed version is much easier to hold in one's hands (at least that's what I find).


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## Carrot (Oct 22, 2011)

asportking said:


> Sure, it is possible to make a cubic 7x7, but when you have a cube that large, a pillowed version is much easier to hold in one's hands (at least that's what I find).


 
So it's okay if the puzzle is big? but what if you are a 4 year old kid? the a regular 3x3x3 is pretty huge compared to your hands... should they then be allowed to use pillowed puzzles? or is it just too bad for them?


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## DavidWoner (Oct 22, 2011)

Tim Major said:


> On a serious note, I say they should be allowed because the 777 is allowed. I would prefer they're not allowed because it is an advantage, but the 777 was allowed so it'd be inconsistent not to be.


 
Ron has said that as soon as cubic 7x7s are widely available, pillowed 7x7s will no longer be legal.



Tim Major said:


> No, but that's because pillowed cubes don't turn as well. Pillowed ZhanChi > ZhanChi if you were used to it.


 
How can you claim something like this? The pillowed V2 is definitely worse than the regular, and they have the same mech. Like Kir said, pillow cubes suck _because they are pillowed._ I don't see where the advantage in recognition is, so if someone wants to disadvantage themselves by using a pillowed cube in comp, then let them.


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## Bob (Oct 22, 2011)

If it were up to me, the 7x7 would be illegal. I had this discussion with some delegates not too long ago. Basically, since 7x7 is inconsistent with the regulations, I don't agree it should be an event.


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## cubeflip (Oct 22, 2011)

I don't care. I don't have any pillowed puzzles (except 7x7) and don't plan on getting any even if they are competition legal.

I guess it depends on the delegate. Although I do think there should be a decision made; it would avoid a lot of potential problems.


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## 4EverCuber (Oct 22, 2011)

Kirjava said:


> I'm starting to worry about the future state of the cubing community.


 
I laughed when I read this....


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## MovingOnUp (Oct 22, 2011)

aaronb said:


> Sticker-less cubes fall into the same category in my opinion. I mean, you can see more stickers, but will you really use it to your advantage? I think that if you can see more of the cube than another person, then it shouldn't be allowed. Even if 99% of people won't try to cheat/use it to their advantage, you will always get those few people, who try to get an unfair advantage.
> 
> I think pillowed cubes should be competition-illegal, except for the 7x7, which, I'm kind of neutral on, and wouldn't wind if the pillowed version went competition-illegal, or stayed like how it is now. All rules are there for a reason, and if (like you claim) pillowed cubes except 7x7 are illegal, and sticker-less cubes are illegal, then they shall remain illegal. Even if there is only a slight chance of it being benefited from, it will still eventually be exploited.


 
I agree wholeheartedly with this.


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## DavidWoner (Oct 22, 2011)

cubeflip said:


> I guess it depends on the delegate.


 
NONONONONONO

It should NEVER depend on the delegate! Delegates are there to enforce the regulations, not to interpret them as they please. If the regulations aren't clear enough to be enforced universally, then they NEED to be rewritten.


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## Genesis (Oct 24, 2011)

Unless they spilt it into another category which only allows pillowed cubes,no.


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## AustinReed (Oct 24, 2011)

Genesis said:


> Unless they spilt it into another category which only allows pillowed cubes,no.


 
Why would they ever do that?


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## Tim Major (Nov 3, 2011)

So you're saying that the pillowed V-7 is the only allowed pillowed cube at the moment? I've seen a pillowed 6x6 used, as unless you put many hours into modding a V-cube, it sucks, and this pillowed was much better. The delegate allowed it, because you'd assume with the 7x7 being legal, and with the regulations unclear, it would be allowed.

Edit: Read through in hindsight, and it's unclear what I am trying to say.
The regulations should be fixed, as currently their is a big inconsistency. If a cubic 7x7 is made commercially available, Ron wants to make pillowed illegal? Would that make old records invalid? It affects the entire community, and if he didn't like that inconsistency, it never should of been allowed. Would you take the old records away? Or put them in a separate category. What if the cubic 7x7 was awful? The people who used pillowed 7x7s would have a huge advantage.


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## jskyler91 (Nov 3, 2011)

Tim Major said:


> So you're saying that the pillowed V-7 is the only allowed pillowed cube at the moment? I've seen a pillowed 6x6 used, as unless you put many hours into modding a V-cube, it sucks, and this pillowed was much better. The delegate allowed it, because you'd assume with the 7x7 being legal, and with the regulations unclear, it would be allowed.
> 
> Edit: Read through in hindsight, and it's unclear what I am trying to say.
> The regulations should be fixed, as currently their is a big inconsistency. If a cubic 7x7 is made commercially available, Ron wants to make pillowed illegal? Would that make old records invalid? It affects the entire community, and if he didn't like that inconsistency, it never should of been allowed. Would you take the old records away? Or put them in a separate category. What if the cubic 7x7 was awful? The people who used pillowed 7x7s would have a huge advantage.


 
I agree with this Tim. What is especially important to consider is that world records have been set on the pillowed 7x7, so if nothing else, I feel that pillowed 7x7 MUST remain legal unless we want to hit the rest button on 7x7 which would **** off a lot of people. 

I would also like to echo a point which keeps coming up about new mech.What I think this issue and the issue of stickerless cubes truly comes down to is making this decision: do we embrace new tech that may lead to new ways of cubing or do we fight it. As time progresses we are going to be constantly getting better and better cubes which are going to change the dynamic of cubing. Compare a Dayan Cube to a Rubik's Brand, one could easily say that the increased (or any at all) corner cutting gives cubers an unfair advantage. What about reverse corner cutting? Is it fair if someone else doesn't need to complete their turns to do a move, but I do? I would say no it isn't, but yet we don't even challenge these innovations, Why? Because they are not major leaps and so we can accept the. But if you add an entirely new way feature or structure, suddenly it becomes a no-no

I would say the ability to corner cut is the same, if not better, in terms of unfair advantage wise as having a pillowed cube which gives a little bit of a better lookahead. I feel that rather than fight these new innovations, the cubing competition community should embrace this new mech. What is most important is that the new mech doesn't allow for new moves or auto solving or something that gives a literal unfair advantage moves wish. If pillowed cubes make for better and faster cubing then why shouldn't we use them? In my opinion, the issue of pillowed cubes versus non pillowed has the same solution that the issue of allowing different (and by this i mean a range of "goodness" of cubes such that others gain an advantage in having better cubes) types of cubes in the competition i.e. it is up to the cuber to supply themselves with the best type of cube if they wish to truly be the best. Just as Zhanchi makes for way better and faster cubing and thus people buy them, so to will those who wish to be truly fast buy a pillowed cube if it is in fact faster. 

Finally, to the comments of upholding the "Cube" portion of the competiton, I would just like to say that I think that mentality will only hold back our community from expanding and becoming more open. What is important is that we are all solving 3x3's with certain restrictions on their movement such that no one has a great advantage move wise. Whether or not your cube is round or cuboid should not matter. Lets not be cubist here.


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## LarsN (Nov 3, 2011)

I think that neglecting the cube portion will make our community less open. Spectators will not recognize our specialized cubes as rubiks cubes. Just look at profesional archery. The bows they use now a days look like something out of a lovecraft book.


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## 4EverCuber (Nov 3, 2011)

LarsN said:


> The bows they use now a days look like something out of a *lovecraft* book.



Did you by chance mean "Lara Croft"?


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## irontwig (Nov 3, 2011)

4EverCuber said:


> Did you by chance mean "Lara Croft"?


 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H._P._Lovecraft


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## Godmil (Nov 3, 2011)

irontwig said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H._P._Lovecraft



I was hoping he was joking, but I had a primal unspeakable fear that he wasn't.


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## ~Adam~ (Nov 3, 2011)

Yes, they should be allowed. If anyone can use one if they want to then what's the problem?


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## Bob (Nov 3, 2011)

cube-o-holic said:


> Yes, they should be allowed. If anyone can use one if they want to then what's the problem?


 
I hope you see the flaws with this line of thinking. If you don't, let me know.




Tim Major said:


> The regulations should be fixed, as currently their is a big inconsistency. If a cubic 7x7 is made commercially available, Ron wants to make pillowed illegal? Would that make old records invalid? It affects the entire community, and if he didn't like that inconsistency, it never should of been allowed. Would you take the old records away? Or put them in a separate category. What if the cubic 7x7 was awful? The people who used pillowed 7x7s would have a huge advantage.


 
...which is one of the (many) reasons why I did not want 6x6 and 7x7 to become events in the first place. I still think we should add 6x6 and 7x7 to the family of the Rainbow Cube and Siamese cube.


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