# Old Pochmann Flipped Edges



## rsquaredcuber (Feb 13, 2014)

Hi all, I'm learning full Old Pochmann, (edges and corners), and watched Zane's tutorial (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idRv29MhQ74) on how to do it. But I'm still confused about flipped edges. I mean, in his tutorial, he briefly says that you shoot to both stickers. I get that part, but what I don't understand HOW you identify those flipped edges. He just says "look at this flipped edge". So could someone help me out in identifying? Thanks.

~Rsquaredcuber


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## DGraciaRubik (Feb 13, 2014)

The edge is in the correct place but the stickers in the edge don't match with the center ones.


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## rsquaredcuber (Feb 13, 2014)

Wait, so is that how you know which edges are flipped, when memorizing? That didn't work for me; there still turned out to be edges that were flipped when I took of the blindfold.


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## Noahaha (Feb 13, 2014)

Just check all 11 non-buffer edges during memo. It's easy to tell when one of them is flipped. 

Also, this is something that pretty much applies to all BLD problems: do sighted solves!


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## TDM (Feb 13, 2014)

rsquaredcuber said:


> That didn't work for me; there still turned out to be edges that were flipped when I took of the blindfold.


That may be because you solved one piece incorrectly. Every single piece after that will also be oriented incorrectly, until you solve another one wrong. Doing sighted solves, as Noah said, will help you to see which pieces you're solving wrong, so you know to correct how you solve those pieces.


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## rsquaredcuber (Feb 13, 2014)

Thanks, I'll try that, and tell you guys how it works out!


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## Stefan (Feb 13, 2014)

TDM said:


> That may be because you solved one piece incorrectly. Every single piece after that will also be oriented incorrectly, until you solve another one wrong.



I guess it depends on what you mean with _"until you solve another one wrong"_, but when I solve a piece incorrectly, either none of the following (if it was a memo mistake) or just one of the following (if it was an execution mistake) will also be oriented incorrectly.


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## TDM (Feb 13, 2014)

Stefan said:


> I guess it depends on what you mean with _"until you solve another one wrong"_, but when I solve a piece incorrectly, either none of the following (if it was a memo mistake) or just one of the following (if it was an execution mistake) will also be oriented incorrectly.


Sorry, I meant if you solve a piece's permutation but not orientation due to an incorrect setup move.


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## Stefan (Feb 13, 2014)

TDM said:


> Sorry, I meant if you solve a piece's permutation but not orientation due to an incorrect setup move.



That doesn't really explain it. Can you show an example where you solve one piece incorrectly and then don't make further mistakes and at least the two next pieces also get oriented incorrectly? No need for algs/moves, you can just list the correct targets, the memorized targets, and the executed targets.


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## rsquaredcuber (Feb 14, 2014)

Noahaha said:


> Just check all 11 non-buffer edges during memo. It's easy to tell when one of them is flipped.
> 
> Also, this is something that pretty much applies to all BLD problems: do sighted solves!



Noah, what do you mean when you say "It's easy to tell when one of them is flipped."?


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## rsquaredcuber (Feb 14, 2014)

Noahaha said:


> Just check all 11 non-buffer edges during memo. It's easy to tell when one of them is flipped.
> 
> Also, this is something that pretty much applies to all BLD problems: do sighted solves!



Noah, what do you mean when you say "It's easy to tell when one of them is flipped."?


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## Methuselah96 (Feb 14, 2014)

rsquaredcuber said:


> Noah, what do you mean when you say "It's easy to tell when one of them is flipped."?


If the edge is in the correct position but is not oriented correctly, it is a flipped edge.

For example this is a flipped edge:






On a real scramble it could look like this (the yellow-green edge is the flipped edge):


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## brian724080 (Feb 14, 2014)

rsquaredcuber said:


> Noah, what do you mean when you say "It's easy to tell when one of them is flipped."?



If an edge can be placed to its rightful position using the subset [U, L, R, D], it is defined as oriented. Therefore, if an edge is flipped, it is mis-oriented, so you either have to do an F or B move to it to alter its orientation, note that orientations may change when you rotate your cube. This should help you understand the concept of flipped edges.


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## Stefan (Feb 14, 2014)

brian724080 said:


> If an edge can be placed to its rightful position using the subset [U, L, R, D], it is defined as oriented. Therefore, if an edge is flipped, it is mis-oriented, so you either have to do an F or B move to it to alter its orientation, note that orientations may change when you rotate your cube. This should help you understand the concept of flipped edges.



Nonsense.

This thread is about Old Pochmann, which doesn't separate orientation and permutation. So pieces outside their goal place *don't have correct/wrong orientation*. For example the UF piece at the LF place is neither oriented nor mis-oriented. It's simply at LF. The only place where it's flipped/mis-oriented is FU. The case that Methuselah96 showed is the only kind of case of flipped edges that exists in Old Pochmann.


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## TDM (Feb 14, 2014)

Stefan said:


> That doesn't really explain it. Can you show an example where you solve one piece incorrectly and then don't make further mistakes and at least the two next pieces also get oriented incorrectly? No need for algs/moves, you can just list the correct targets, the memorized targets, and the executed targets.


Setup: M2 U M U2 M' U M2 z M2 U M U2 M' U M2 z'
Memo: UF UL FL DL
Solve: FU UL FL DL

E: sorry, you're right. I'm stupid. I didn't think it through properly. However, my point that finishing a solve with flipped edges could be because of solving a piece incorrectly is still true. It just doesn't affect as many as I thought previously.


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## rsquaredcuber (Feb 14, 2014)

Stefan said:


> Nonsense.
> 
> This thread is about Old Pochmann, which doesn't separate orientation and permutation. So pieces outside their goal place *don't have correct/wrong orientation*. For example the UF piece at the LF place is neither oriented nor mis-oriented. It's simply at LF. The only place where it's flipped/mis-oriented is FU. The case that Methuselah96 showed is the only kind of case of flipped edges that exists in Old Pochmann.


Thank you SO much Stefan, this what I was looking for. I was looking for HOW you know which ones are flipped.

Sorry if I'm being a bit redundant, but, to summarize, the only way an edge can be classified as "flipped" in Old Pochmann is when it is in the correct area-that is, the two centers on either sides of it have the same color as the piece-but simply the colors do not correspond with the centers. Confirmed?


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## Goosly (Feb 14, 2014)

^ Confirmed.


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## rsquaredcuber (Feb 14, 2014)

Methuselah96 said:


> If the edge is in the correct position but is not oriented correctly, it is a flipped edge.
> 
> For example this is a flipped edge:
> 
> ...



Now assume the scramble was the same, @Methuselah96, except there was an R' on that yellow face. Like that yellow green piece was moved one down. Would that still count as flipped? If so, how would I identify it then?


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## Goosly (Feb 14, 2014)

rsquaredcuber said:


> Like that yellow green piece was moved one down. Would that still count as flipped?



No. It's somewhere in your memo already, right after the red-green or green-red target.


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## brian724080 (Feb 14, 2014)

Stefan said:


> Nonsense.
> 
> This thread is about Old Pochmann, which doesn't separate orientation and permutation. So pieces outside their goal place *don't have correct/wrong orientation*. For example the UF piece at the LF place is neither oriented nor mis-oriented. It's simply at LF. The only place where it's flipped/mis-oriented is FU. The case that Methuselah96 showed is the only kind of case of flipped edges that exists in Old Pochmann.



I see, sorry for the misleading post.


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