# ROLL: A method for predicting corner permutation after OLL



## ottozing (Mar 4, 2015)

Making this write up to go along with the edge recognition one I made a few days ago. Don't learn this until you know CP recognition from something like CLL on 2x2, or COLL from 3x3.

The idea with ROLL starts with knowing what type of CP you'll get after your OLL alg. It'll either be diagonally permuted corners (E perm, N perms, Y perm, V perm), solved coners (U perms, H perm, Z perm), or adjacently swapped corners (The other 11 PLL cases). Doing that alone is very easy if you have already learned CP recognition from something like CLL on a 2x2, or COLL for 3x3, and have played around a bit with how CP cases correspond to other CP cases (For example, F R U R' U' F' gives a diagonal PLL for when R' U' R U' R' U2 R2 U R' U R U2 R' solves corners, and vise versa). With that said, that's not 100% what ROLL is about. With ROLL, when you know you're going to get an adjacent corner PLL, you also know where the headlights are going to be. 

As you can probably tell, this requires knowing your OLL's a lot better than you would need to for just narrowing down the 3 types of corner permutations to one, but it can definitely come in handy. I can't speak for anyone else, but with my PLL algs, most of the adjacent corner PLL algs have the headlights on the left (Only one of the R perms, and the A perms don't). If I can immediately AUF after OLL so that the headlights are on the left, then that can help most of the time, although that's a ridiculous amount to learn for considerably little gain. However, learning to associate CP cases for certain OLL's with the headlights going to be on the left is very nice, because that leaves room to possibly cancel into your PLL alg. 

I mentioned earlier the idea of playing around with what CP cases correspond with other ones, but in particular, knowing the opposite CP to every CP case (Opposite meaning the one where the alg which would normally solve CP would give diagonal CP), is very useful for ROLL in two ways. The first way is that if you know an OLL case has the opposite CP for the alg you usually use, you can narrow down your possible PLL case from 21 to 5. The other much less obvious way in which it's useful is for when you see an OLL with a CP that's the opposite of what would usually give headlights on left. When you see that, you know that if you do a U2 after OLL, you'll put headlights on left, and likely set up your PLL into the position it should be in.

I'll post some examples later (Some with ROLL, and some with both ROLL and the edge recognition method thing, just to show how much the possible PLL case can be narrowed down, along with a point I want to make about a certain ROLL+edge case).


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## pdilla (Mar 4, 2015)

I've got ROLL down for my OCLL only... I'm just too lazy to figure it all out for the others... I'm interested in the rest of the write up though.


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## Kudz (Oct 4, 2015)

*ROLL/OLLCP- help*

Hi, I couldn't find information about it so i have to ask.

ROLL: 
- Will using ROLL slow OLL reco very much?
- I use (try) the version where headlights will end on left + OLLCP for cases that will end with ENVY PLL. Sometimes transform from envy to A-perm-like PLL (sry for lack of words) and than OLLCP another case. Is it Worth to learn it to evry single case (+COLL-sune&AS)?
-I avg from 13-16 should i learn it? I do it for later solves..
-Is there any alternative like blockrecognition to add to ROLL to make it even moemre effective?
-Any ideas to train reco?
-Is it doable for me to make it that fast to skip PLL reco?
-Lastly, after OLL skip (I may learn VLS more likely than ZBLLs) will my reco hurt? Or even if I skip diagnal PLLs after getting one of thoose will it really hurt my solve? 
Thank you, sorry for any mistakes I am new + my english hurt


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## 2180161 (Oct 4, 2015)

Kudz said:


> Hi, I couldn't find information about it so i have to ask.
> 
> ROLL:
> - Will using ROLL slow OLL reco very much?
> ...



Just learn OLLCP. There is no point in learning ROLL. If I were you, I wouldn't learn OLLCP until sub-12, and even then it wont help too much


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## Rubiks560 (Oct 4, 2015)

2180161 said:


> Just learn OLLCP. There is no point in learning ROLL. If I were you, I wouldn't learn OLLCP until sub-12, and even then it wont help too much



ROLL is FAR from not worth it.


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## 2180161 (Oct 4, 2015)

Rubiks560 said:


> ROLL is FAR from not worth it.



How do you figure? Recognition would be the same as OLLCP, so why not just learn OLLCP?


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## Kudz (Oct 4, 2015)

Couse OLLCP algs mostly suck. I may learn OLLCP only though. I think I may do few ROLLs to, that i can see now that my PLL reco is like skiped and OLL slightly longer. We'll see.


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## Rubiks560 (Oct 4, 2015)

2180161 said:


> How do you figure? Recognition would be the same as OLLCP, so why not just learn OLLCP?



I'm completely forgetting what Jays extension of ROLL is, but basically his extension is being able to tell whether you'll have adj edges for your PLL, or opposite edges for PLL.
This combined with ROLL allows you to narrow down your PLL choices sooooo much. Not only will you know if the headlights will be on left (where most PLLs have the headlights) you will now know if you have opp or adj edges. If it's opp edges it's only 1 of 6 or so PLLs which is a huge decrease in trying to figure out if it's 21 or not.


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## CriticalCubing (Oct 4, 2015)

Rubiks560 said:


> I'm completely forgetting what Jays extension of ROLL is, but basically his extension is being able to tell whether you'll have adj edges for your PLL, or opposite edges for PLL.
> This combined with ROLL allows you to narrow down your PLL choices sooooo much. Not only will you know if the headlights will be on left (where most PLLs have the headlights) you will now know if you have opp or adj edges. If it's opp edges it's only 1 of 6 or so PLLs which is a huge decrease in trying to figure out if it's 21 or not.


So what should you learn? Jay's variation of ROLL and OLLCP?


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## Rubiks560 (Oct 4, 2015)

CriticalCubing said:


> So what should you learn? Jay's variation of ROLL and OLLCP?



Both. ROLL is more useful for general LL knowledge, OLLCP can be used to avoid diag swaps and get skips.


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## Praetorian (Oct 5, 2015)

sorry but uh..what exactly is ROLL? I've never heard of it


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## Kudz (Oct 5, 2015)

Praetorian said:


> sorry but uh..what exactly is ROLL? I've never heard of it


ROLL is recognicon of PLL type in OLL so is it:
-type A: U, Z, H,skip
-type C: E, N ,V, Y (diagnal SWAP)
-type B: rest of them
If type B you know what U moves to do to make headlights on left and it is easier than OLLCP (memorize+execute+ learn).
If it is type C which is bad you can use OLLCP or at least make it type B.

So I was starting learning ROLL to the most advance stage (Sèbastien Felix sites definition) than extend it to Jay's level. Oh and If I understood Jay's cubing world video propely, you can see blocks too, sometimes.

My weakness are cross things and PLL reco. So iI watched your vid on improving LL, which was great, and than I saw few other vids about using it, it may extend to hyperorientation which is like full ZBLL or full OLLCP- not worth it. Without ROLL I recognize case pretty slow when with even my level of ROLL I do it faster.

Should I learn it THAT WAY? I'm sub 15 I think but I'm cubing since late Dec 2014.


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## CriticalCubing (Oct 5, 2015)

Kudz said:


> ROLL is recognicon of PLL type in OLL so is it:
> -type A: U, Z, H,skip
> -type C: E, N ,V, Y (diagnal SWAP)
> -type B: rest of them
> ...


You are using ROLL for recognising OLL's? Hmm interesting. I will learn some easy OLLCP's today and can you link me to Jay's cubing world video? I am not able to find it. Thanks


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## Wilhelm (Oct 5, 2015)

Interesting discussion!
I recently started learning a few ROLL's and I personally like it. 
Other than with OLLCP, COLL or other LL variations you don't have to think about a different alg that you have to do and can execute your regular OLL immideatly. If I happen to recognise the ROLL during normal OLL reco it speeds up my PLL reco. If I don't that's also fine. 
What I'm trying to say is that I hardly spend any extra time during OLL reco but can save some during PLL reco and that's it what I think makes this worth learning. 

I think that it only makes sense to learn once you find yourself checking/seeing CO during regular solves. 
But I would be interested to see what Jay has to say about this


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## Kudz (Oct 5, 2015)

Jay's vid:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbCzCGWuti0


ottozing said:


> I'll post some examples later (Some with ROLL, and some with both ROLL and the edge recognition method thing, just to show how much the possible PLL case can be narrowed down, along with a point I want to make about a certain ROLL+edge case).


Also I do not know is it it?
I personaly want to do sth like that step by step
So my plan is:
-Learn OLLCP
-Learn ROLL complex version
-Edges reco
-More OLLCP
-VLS

I use words from: http://absolutemind.pagesperso-orange.fr/roll-angl.html
Is it good to OLLCP type C for type B? I found to all type C PLLs to be extra slow (+G perms <3)
I wasn't getting really in this vid but with edges reco where I think you need only 2 of them which is great cause I use COLL and other OLLs got easy view on at least pair of edges, number of PLLs possible reduce itselfes to only few.

Problem that needs solve: sune and antisune: COLLs are bad and ROLL will be same bad with reco so: (pick one and tell me)
-ROLL only
-ROLL + edges reco
-COLL
-ignore xd

The another thing I want to learn is VLS, may it be possible to do ROLL along with VLS or it is pointless in a fact of no of cases?
My PLL reco even with 2 sided reco(almost) suck! I saw few thing about ROLL where sb saw it may be same fast as normal OLL reco (OLL reco<PLL reco)
He seems to be good with it: https://www.youtube.com/user/jskyler91/featured

Oh, and I guess block reco or sth xd will be easier to memorise and see on cube. With this technique cube may be solved without any pauses. But firstly I have to practise cross 
*ALL LINE CASES DONE <3* to complex ROLL


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## ottozing (Oct 7, 2015)

Wilhelm said:


> But I would be interested to see what Jay has to say about this



Yeah, like you said, it's not really learning algs, but rather learning CP case association, which is something i subconsciously did when practicing. I would just see cases and know from experience where the headlights would be, which is why I think ROLL is super easy to learn. Plus, as long as you aren't going far out of your way to check CP, using ROLL is never really slower than just OLL>PLL recognition, although you might occasionally waste a U move if you get a PLL where headlights aren't on left such as the right hand R perm.

OLLCP on the other hand, isn't faster than OLL>PLL every single time, you have to go out of your way a bit sometimes to recognize if it's a sune from a weird angle, and you have to learn a ton of algs which isn't as easy.



Spoiler: ROLL examples that I promised waay too long ago



U R' F R F R2 B' R2 B U2 F' U2 R2 F2 R2 U2

Here we have a really easy OLL (R U2 R2' F R F' R U2 R'). I know that for this particular OLL, when the CP case doesn't involve UBR and UFL being adjacent colours, it has to be an adjacent CP PLL. I also know when UBR and UFL match, and FUR is opposite to UBR/UFL, the headlights are going to end up on the left after doing OLL. As you can see after doing your OLL alg, you just have a T perm already set up ready to go.

U2 F U2 B' R2 B R2 F2 R2 F2 R' U' R' U' L F' L'

Here the OLL can be solved with r U' r2' U r2 U r2' U' r, or U R' U2' R U R' U R F R U R' U' F' (Both of which leave an adjacent CP PLL). I'll start by going over the first one. I know that this particular CP case doesn't correspond with the CP case that usually leaves headlights on left (matching stickers ULB/UFL and UBR/URF means headlights on left, fyi), and also doesn't correspond with the opposite CP case for headlights on left. This means after OLL, I'll likely have to do either a U or a U' to get to the AUF I want to, and surely enough, after doing the alg I'm a U' away from a G perm.

With the second alg, however, I know that this CP case will either give headlights on left or right. I myself haven't actually learned which one will definitely put headlights on left for this OLL using this particular alg, but I do know which CP case corresponds with headlights on left for the FRURUF OLL alg, which just so happens to be the second half of the alg, so I can very quickly check there. After doing U R' U2 R U R' U R, I can see that ULB/UFL are the same colour, and RUB/RFU are also the same colour, which corresponds to the opposite CP case for when FRURUF gives headlights on left. This means after OLL it's likely I'll have to do a U2. However, after doing F R U R' U' F', you can see that I'm left with an R perm, so it didn't quite work this time.

F2 L2 D L2 D' L2 F2 D' F2 L2 U' B' D2 F' R' B R' F' U

Here the OLL is just fat sune. I know that the CP case which corresponds to headlights being on left is the opposite of the one I have, meaning I'll likely have to do a U2 after OLL.


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## CriticalCubing (Oct 7, 2015)

ottozing said:


> Yeah, like you said, it's not really learning algs, but rather learning CP case association, which is something i subconsciously did when practicing. I would just see cases and know from experience where the headlights would be, which is why I think ROLL is super easy to learn. Plus, as long as you aren't going far out of your way to check CP, using ROLL is never really slower than just OLL>PLL recognition, although you might occasionally waste a U move if you get a PLL where headlights aren't on left such as the right hand R perm.
> 
> OLLCP on the other hand, isn't faster than OLL>PLL every single time, you have to go out of your way a bit sometimes to recognize if it's a sune from a weird angle, and you have to learn a ton of algs which isn't as easy.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the explaination but I really didnt understand very well haha. Do you have a guide that I can read or videos? It is helpful and I would love to learn this. Thanks


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## Wilhelm (Oct 7, 2015)

ottozing said:


> Plus, as long as you aren't going far out of your way to check CP, using ROLL is never really slower than just OLL>PLL recognition, although you might occasionally waste a U move if you get a PLL where headlights aren't on left such as the right hand R perm.


Yeah I wanted to know if we have the same opinion on that


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## Kudz (Oct 8, 2015)

Is it worth to look at 3 edges and recognize what PLL or just at 2 of them. With 3 It is I think 1LLL reco xd

Also what groups u use after edge reco with type B PLLs
Is it:
U perms
Z perm
H perm/skip?
or even broke this U perms to multi angle(multi groups of U perms?)

Also what PLL are in each group.
It's harder to devlop than ROLL 
*Thank you for help *


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## ottozing (Oct 10, 2015)

CriticalCubing said:


> Thanks for the explaination but I really didnt understand very well haha. Do you have a guide that I can read or videos? It is helpful and I would love to learn this. Thanks



There's a video on cubing world I made on last layer lookahead which covers this at some point.


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## Kudz (Feb 9, 2016)

Okey, so I need help.. again. Can sb give me tut on how to do that edges reco thing? I tried, but I can't do it. This problem+kinda guide (critical requested ) vid






I need like super-duper-mega-huge help with this Jay's thing. As in vid it is just simply not working. I was trying to do it for different edges (in OLL), Still not working. I guess I need good guide on this :9


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## Eamon (Dec 26, 2020)

Now, all my plls have headlights on the left for ROLL, which make my plls slower compare to other people who dont use ROLL. But if i keep learning ROLL, my pll recognition and oll to pll transition time is better. rn i am really comfused if i should keep learning ROLL, hopefully some of you can help me out with this 
Any help is appreciated 

Btw, Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!


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## Tao Yu (Dec 26, 2020)

ROLL isn't supposed to slow down your PLLs in any way. You should be using the same algs that you would have used had you not been using ROLL, and you should still strive to be able to recognize every case using only two sides. The only difference is that you will have some prior information about the case before seeing it, which should allow you to recognize faster. 

I don't understand your stated reason for your PLLs being slower. Are you using different algs because of ROLL?

To answer your question of whether you should keep learning ROLL in a more broad way, you should understand that ROLL is only supposed to shave of a tiny amount of time in recognition, like 0.3-0.4. The fact that you suggest that ROLL improves your PLL recognition and OLL to PLL transition noticeably suggests to me that your pure PLL recognition skills might need some work.


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## Eamon (Dec 26, 2020)

Tao Yu said:


> I don't understand your stated reason for your PLLs being slower. Are you using different algs because of ROLL?


yeah, i do use plls that have headlights on left just for roll. i will also try to improve my pll recignition. thanks for the tip!


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## Aim a Qbear (Apr 2, 2021)

is there a pdf for the roll method


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## OreKehStrah (Apr 2, 2021)

Aim a Qbear said:


> is there a pdf for the roll method


No. It's not a method, and it depends on what algs you personally use for each OLL case.


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