# How to be sub 20



## *LukeMayn* (Jul 24, 2009)

ok, I think this would be a good way to start the intermediate place so here we go!
First off I'll be talking mainly about the fridrich method. if you know another method, stay here as it will likely be beneficial anyway. So here we go!

step 1: Use the search bar for stuff (seriously) 

ok so with fridrich you will want to know all/most PLL and you should be using 2LOLL. Seriously speaking, you can get through PLL and 2LOLL in a month. 1+ alg a day isn't hard to remember so just get it done. But please this is *very* important:

*GET GOOD ALGS *​
Seriously without good algs there is not point learning it so take your time. go though EVERY alg in the speedsolving wiki and find the best to suit you finger trick.

you will want to know a form of F2L which is quick (I'll talk about Fridich here sorry other users but keep using your methods ) so I don't want to see any LBL. You will need to know at least keyhole otherwise intuitive F2l (highly recommend) or alg F2L (don't recommend). 
Now that you have your stuff down we can get to the important parts 

*** apply concepts from this to other methods ***​eg. 2x2x2 block = cross etc.​
So first our cross. You want it to be about 6-7 moves on average so think about inserting several pieces at the same time using more complex thinking. But in saying that you also want to keep it finger trick friendly so:
8 move finger tricky > 6 move non-finger tricky

A very handy thing to practice is doing the cross blindfolded (I am dead serious, I *REALLY* recommend practicing this as the results will come very quickly. The purpose of doing this is so you know the whole cross in your head as you are doing it, thus meaning you need not look at it while solving and can concentrate on the next F2L pair. This helps a ton!!!

Next thing. While doing F2L you want to constantly be looking for the next pair. NEVER think about the pair you are doing at the moment as you should of figured it all out all ready from looking ahead in the stage before. *Continuous flow > speedy, stop, speedy, stop*. 

Track pieces. When I am doing F2L I am constantly checking out pieces and their relative partner (eg. corner-edge). Another trick is to memorize where some of the pieces are so you can be ready to use them later.

That's about it for F2L. Just keep practicing. The rest of the solve is just relying on fast algs and good recognition. This should slow down the constant flow of " how can I be sub 20" threads 

Also, one last thing. I think that these are the most important steps in achieving sub 20:
Slow down while doing you first 2 layers and look ahead (meaning tracking other pieces.)
Get good LL algs (cos if you don't, you'll regret it)
Practise your LL algs (figure out perfect finger tricks and DRILL)
Don't look at the cross while doing it (have it planned out)


PS. you may want a DIY as they help a bit.


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## OneKube (Jul 24, 2009)

Very well done, this should help out a lot in the future.


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## 04mucklowd (Jul 24, 2009)

This may help me as I am finding it tough to get sub-20


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## shelley (Jul 24, 2009)

SLOW DOWN AND LOOK AHEAD is much more important than GET GOOD ALGS, in my opinion. Case in point: it's well within the realm of possibility to reach sub-20 without knowing full OLL.


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## miniGOINGS (Jul 24, 2009)

But don't you think getting good algs _and_ looking ahead is better than just looking ahead.


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## shelley (Jul 24, 2009)

Yes, but if I were going to choose something to write in bold red font, it would be slow down and look ahead.


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## miniGOINGS (Jul 24, 2009)

Acknowledged.


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## Novriil (Jul 24, 2009)

shelley said:


> SLOW DOWN AND LOOK AHEAD is much more important than GET GOOD ALGS, in my opinion. Case in point: it's well within the realm of possibility to reach sub-20 without knowing full OLL.



sub-20?? I just made 3x3 PBs.. 11.35 sec single.. 2LOLL


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## DavidWoner (Jul 24, 2009)

shelley said:


> SLOW DOWN AND LOOK AHEAD is much more important than GET GOOD ALGS, in my opinion. Case in point: it's well within the realm of possibility to reach sub-20 without knowing full OLL.



Agreed. I was sub-19 with only 17 or so PLLs and roughly the same number of OLLs. Having an 11-12 second f2l is what made the difference.


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## miniGOINGS (Jul 24, 2009)

Novriil said:


> shelley said:
> 
> 
> > SLOW DOWN AND LOOK AHEAD is much more important than GET GOOD ALGS, in my opinion. Case in point: it's well within the realm of possibility to reach sub-20 without knowing full OLL.
> ...



Non-lucky?


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## *LukeMayn* (Jul 24, 2009)

shelley said:


> SLOW DOWN AND LOOK AHEAD is much more important than GET GOOD ALGS, in my opinion. Case in point: it's well within the realm of possibility to reach sub-20 without knowing full OLL.



I was refering to PLL for get good algs.
Also I mentioned continuous flow > speedy, stop, speedy stop F2L
ALSO I said 2LOLL :fp


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## kuzelnet (Jul 24, 2009)

I use Badmephisto's PLL + OLL (didnt learn even half) 
I didnt like F for PLL ([R' U2 R' d'] [R' F'] [R2 U' R' U] [R' F R U' F]) 
So I looked through Cube Wiki, and found " R' U R U' R2 F' U' F U x R U R' U' R2 B' " Quite nice alg  and pretty damm nice flow. *So, really changing alg helps ..*


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## DamonCubeFreak (Jul 26, 2009)

thanks alot! this helped heaps


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## ross mccusker (Jul 28, 2009)

take you long to learn how to do ur cross blindfolded? i could place 3 parts but even when looking i cant track the 4th piece !


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## Thieflordz5 (Jul 28, 2009)

ross mccusker said:


> take you long to learn how to do ur cross blindfolded? i could place 3 parts but even when looking i cant track the 4th piece !



Do it slowly, and don't cheat yourself by looking (I'm actually still working on this...)
you just have to memo 4 pieces, and it's about as challenging as ZZEO BLD (For me).


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## JTW2007 (Jul 28, 2009)

Thieflordz5 said:


> ross mccusker said:
> 
> 
> > take you long to learn how to do ur cross blindfolded? i could place 3 parts but even when looking i cant track the 4th piece !
> ...



I just memorize my solution and then perform it. It normally takes me around 6 seconds for memo and 4 for execution.


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## Deleted member 2864 (Jul 28, 2009)

very, very, straight-forward. I like it 

I've been struggling with sub 20 for quite some time now (average like 20 seconds) and I've been reading all the guides and taking notes of the tips I find. Though my times have risen a little since I'm back onto computer gaming.


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## brunson (Jul 28, 2009)

Stickied...


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## spdcbr (Jul 28, 2009)

SLOW DOWN AND LOOK AHEAD is the main reason noobs keep on posting "how do I get to sub 20" threads, I don't know why, but they just ignore it and think you're a jerk for not giving "specific instructions." That's all the info *I* need to get faster.


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## brunson (Jul 28, 2009)

ross mccusker said:


> take you long to learn how to do ur cross blindfolded? i could place 3 parts but even when looking i cant track the 4th piece !


It took me a couple of hours of practice to get it at first, but I find I need to go back and practice it periodically to stay good at it. I tend to get lazy and only find the first three edges then waste time finding the fourth after the cross is 3/4 solved.

P.S. "ur" should be spelled "your" in this case. Also, we capitalize the first words of a sentence in English. That's at a minimum, I'm overlooking the other punctuation mistakes, but the capitalization really helps to make your postings more readable.


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## spdcbr (Jul 28, 2009)

Yay! I'm a genuis! okay, anyway, someone needs to make a intuitive f2l hard cases video, because the one by westonian is simply ridiculous with 13 algorithm cases, and no one else can seem to make a decent video, and badmephisto's website is down for now...so...yeah...could you post below me if you know the algorithms? Greatly appreciated if you provide pictures too.


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## ChrisBird (Jul 28, 2009)

spdcbr said:


> Yay! I'm a genuis! okay, anyway, someone needs to make a intuitive f2l hard cases video, because the one by westonian is simply ridiculous with 13 algorithm cases, and no one else can seem to make a decent video, and badmephisto's website is down for now...so...yeah...could you post below me if you know the algorithms? Greatly appreciated if you provide pictures too.



How is theWestonian's video "ridiculous"?


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## spdcbr (Jul 28, 2009)

Algorithms that can be done intuitively and 13 algorthms is just...there should be just 4 or 5 cases and more for mirrors, and I understand that your his "buddy" and all, so sorry if you were offended.


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## ChrisBird (Jul 28, 2009)

I do not understand why you are bringing my acquaintance level with him into this, I was merely asking why you thought it was ridiculous.

They may be able to be done intuitively, and that's all good, but it would take much fewer moves if you learn an algorithm.

I would suggest learning those 13, they will really help for your hard cases.


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## spdcbr (Jul 28, 2009)

I think that I already pointed out that half were NOT hard cases.

EDIT: Oh yeah, and your "acquaintance level" with him DID matter, because if you didn't have an idea who he was, then be honest, you wouldn't care.


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## ChrisBird (Jul 28, 2009)

spdcbr said:


> I think that I already pointed out that half were NOT hard cases.
> 
> EDIT: Oh yeah, and your "acquaintance level" with him DID matter, because if you didn't have an idea who he was, then be honest, you wouldn't care.



A few things.
1) I know his video, and I believe it to be a good one, which is why I was asking why you did not think it was a good video.

2) It would be very close minded of me to consider a tutorial as good just because I am friends with the person making it. That is same kind of thing fanboys do, and I can assure you I am not a fanboy.

3) Whether they are hard cases or not is a matter of opinion, the person making the tutorial (theWestonian) believed those to be the hardest cases, so he taught them. If you think they aren't hard, you cannot judge the validity of the tutorial based on that. The most you could say is that you don't think he taught the material that should be taught.

4) I do care, even if I didn't know him, because the pointless lampooning of videos because you don't agree with them is stupid and ignorant.

It still remains that your opinion of his video lends nothing to this discussion of how to be Sub-20, nor does my logic and reasoning supporting my opinion lend anything to it. So I will drop it.


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## brunson (Jul 28, 2009)

A meta discussion of which videos suck and why is off topic in this thread, please start a new thread or take it to PM.


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## *LukeMayn* (Jul 30, 2009)

wow, a lot of my threads are being stickied atm


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## Faz (Aug 9, 2009)

I know this is blatant self promotion, but anyway:

So far I have made 4 parts of my 6 part series of how to get faster using the fridrich method, for a total of 8 videos. People say that they're quite helpful, so I thought I'd post the playlist here:

http://www.youtube.com/user/fazrulz1#play/user/B27F958F0F882C07

Hopefully it can help some of you guys!

Feliks


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## SuperNerd (Sep 6, 2009)

I find it easier to look ahead using cross on left. .


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## Tim Major (Sep 22, 2009)

Thanks. Many threads say one trick to getting faster, this combines them all. I have struggled with cross on D, so I shall start trying on L. I am going to print out your post, as it will be very useful. OH NO, NO INK!


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## teguhmb (Sep 22, 2009)

I'm stuck in 26s avg.. and i think those tips and tricks very useful..
Thnks..


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## retr0 (Nov 8, 2009)

I find it useful when doing the cross is to only BLD one edge at a time for 10 crosses, then 2 edges for 10, then 3, then 4.


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## ArcticxWolf (Nov 23, 2009)

I'm also stuck at 25-30 second average T_T


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## Crazycuber (Dec 5, 2009)

The most important thing to do is to learn a speedcubing method, I recomend fridric or petrus. Then u hav to develop a way to look ahead while your still going fast. THen if u want to get really fast, you have to learn full OLL and full PLL. Take it slowly, like 2 algs to memorize a day.


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## Muesli (Dec 5, 2009)

Crazycuber said:


> fridric


FRIDRICH!

FRIDRICH FRIDRICH FRIDRICH FRIDRICH!

Spell the method correctly! It's NOT hard!


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## Jake Gouldon (Dec 5, 2009)

Musli4brekkies said:


> It's NOT hard!



That's what she said to you.
[/offtopic]

I think one of the important parts to quickly achiving sub-20 is believing you can. For a long time I thought I never would, but here I am with a 14.xx avg.12.


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## miniGOINGS (Dec 5, 2009)

Crazycuber said:


> The most important thing to do is to learn a speedcubing method, I recomend fridric or petrus. Then u hav to develop a way to look ahead while your still going fast. THen if u want to get really fast, you have to learn full OLL and full PLL. Take it slowly, like 2 algs to memorize a day.



I dissagree with everything in that post. Except for the look ahead part.


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## waffle=ijm (Dec 5, 2009)

Crazycuber said:


> The most important thing to do is to learn a speedcubing method, I recomend fridric or petrus. Then u hav to develop a way to look ahead while your still going fast. THen if u want to get really fast, you have to learn full OLL and full PLL. Take it slowly, like 2 algs to memorize a day.



cool story. Now let's see what Roux, ZB, and ZZ solvers have to say about that.


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## cmhardw (Dec 11, 2009)

Here is a quote of a post I made a while back in another thread. It was in response to someone who asked a question about what to do when you are stuck averaging sub-25, but are not yet sub-20.

I've heard a few people say this post was helpful to them, so I hope it can help others in this thread too.



cmhardw said:


> This is something that I have a lot of experience with. I was stuck with a 22.0 second pb average for about 2 years, my junior and senior year of high school. I felt like I was practicing a lot at the time, and it frustrated me that I did not improve despite my perception of hard work to overcome.
> 
> In hindsight here are some things I did terribly wrong:
> 1) In those two years I didn't *learn* anything new about 3x3x3 speedcubing. I did practice bigger cubes, other puzzles like square-1 and clock, magic, etc. But I didn't learn anything new for *3x3x3 speedsolving*. The fact that I was learning to solve other puzzles gave me a false sense of security that I was also learning to improve my 3x3x3, *not true!*
> ...


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## Zubon (Dec 11, 2009)

Thank you Chris for reposting this. I think it is golden advice for someone who is around my level.

As well as different algs fitting different people's styles, I think this is also true with cubes. I love the A2 and the F2 cubes but I know they are not so popular with many people. Based on your advice, I got the Gray C from C4U but at all tensions, I just don't like it.


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## Raffael (Dec 16, 2009)

cmhardw said:


> ...
> For example I used to use the 17 move Y perm, because it just felt amazingly cool. I now use the 13 move alg because I am faster using it.
> ..



i really think this post should be stickied.

btw: what is this 13 move y-perm?


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## mande (Dec 16, 2009)

Raffael said:


> btw: what is this 13 move y-perm?



If I'm not wrong, its this one: R2 u R2' U R2 D' R' U' R F2' R' U R


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## cmhardw (Dec 16, 2009)

Raffael said:


> cmhardw said:
> 
> 
> > ...
> ...





mande said:


> Raffael said:
> 
> 
> > btw: what is this 13 move y-perm?
> ...




Oops. I can't count, the Y-perm I use is 14 turns:
R2 U' R' U R U' y' x' L' U' R U' R' U' L U

I'll edit the original post.

Chris


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## rubiknewbie (Dec 18, 2009)

cmhardw said:


> Raffael said:
> 
> 
> > cmhardw said:
> ...



I am going to change to this algorithm! I tried it for 1 day and it is already as good or better than the 17-move Y perm I use.

No point in doing 17-move algorithm if I cannot do it like Dan Knights. This algorithm can be faster with practice. The key thing is controlling the strength and positioning in the last part.


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## John Stewart (Jan 24, 2010)

*Thanks Luke*

Thanks for the advice Luke.
This should help me a lot.


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## ribonzz (Feb 5, 2010)

The thing is to be fast and calm also concentrated..


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## DAE_JA_VOO (Feb 5, 2010)

cmhardw said:


> 1) *Stop Rushing on F2L*
> If you're stuck in the low 20's I guarantee that you solve F2L *too quickly to look ahead*. I'm not saying that it's a possibility I am saying absolutely, 100% for a fact you turn faster than you can look ahead. *Please try to realize this is true* because it will help you speed up tremendously! This one allows for lookahead and allows you to go faster. I still struggle with the perfect balance for this to this very day. It's paradoxical, I know. But seriously, If you go at 80% speed throughout your solving you *will* get faster times more often than not than if you go 100% speed. Trust me on this. It is one of the biggest changes I made to my solving that allowed me to go sub-20 on average for the first time.



There isn't a single thing I've ever read that's helped me more with cubing. I've been stuck at 20-22 second averages for what must be 6 months now. I just COULDN'T break that wall, and I refused to learn the OLLs because I knew the problems were in my F2L.

I did two sub 20 averages this afternoon, including my new PB average - 18.73 seconds. That's about 2-3 seconds faster than the average that I found impossible to top just yesterday.







Seriously, all I did was about 30 minutes of Metronome solving (100pm) and then my two averages.

Chris, thank you SO much man, really


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## CUB3R01 (Feb 16, 2010)

That is really great advice Chris. Thankyou very much!


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## cmhardw (Feb 20, 2010)

DAE_JA_VOO said:


> Chris, thank you SO much man, really



Glad it was helpful! I remember, very well, being stuck at that barrier too! Congratulations on your very significantly sub-20 averages, as well! Awesome stuff!



CUB3R01 said:


> That is really great advice Chris. Thankyou very much!



Again, I'm only happy that it is useful for others to read this. As I said above, I was stuck in the low 20's for some time as well so I definitely know the feeling.

Chris


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## DAE_JA_VOO (Feb 20, 2010)

cmhardw said:


> DAE_JA_VOO said:
> 
> 
> > Chris, thank you SO much man, really
> ...



Man, I've had so many sub-20 averages since I read your post. In fact, I've probably had more sub-20 averages in that time than non sub-20 averages. 

Chris, again, thank you


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## vcuber13 (Mar 14, 2010)

What are good slits for an 18 second average?

I'm about 20 seconds and:

Cross - 3 Seconds
F2L - 10 Seconds
OLL - 3 Seconds
PLL - 4 Seconds
[LL - 7 Seconds]


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## Truncator (Mar 14, 2010)

vcuber13 said:


> What are good slits for an 18 second average?
> 
> I'm about 20 seconds and:
> 
> ...


PLL should be faster. You can get to three seconds pretty easily if you do time attacks.


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## vcuber13 (Mar 14, 2010)

Truncator said:


> vcuber13 said:
> 
> 
> > What are good slits for an 18 second average?
> ...



its not really my execution it takes me about 1.5 to recognize and 2.5 to execute.


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## Parity (Mar 14, 2010)

vcuber13 said:


> Truncator said:
> 
> 
> > vcuber13 said:
> ...



exactly you should be able to execute in 1.5 seconds.


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## Samania (Mar 15, 2010)

Nice guide.. right now im just about getting sub 30.


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## vcuber13 (Mar 15, 2010)

Parity said:


> vcuber13 said:
> 
> 
> > Truncator said:
> ...



ok,
I still would like to know what good splits are so I know what to practice


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## jms_gears1 (Mar 15, 2010)

vcuber13 said:


> Parity said:
> 
> 
> > vcuber13 said:
> ...



.. Practice your PLL
Your OLL is faster than OLL, that is fail. If you can do OLL in 3 work on doing PLL for 2


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## miniGOINGS (Mar 15, 2010)

jms_gears1 said:


> .. Practice your PLL
> Your OLL is faster than OLL, that is fail. If you can do *P*LL in 3 work on doing PLL for 2



Typo fix. But yea, PLL is way to slow.


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## CuBeOrDiE (Mar 15, 2010)

lol here's my time when i'm all warmed up:

cross-3 seconds
f2l-9 seconds
oll-4 seconds
pll-7 seconds
total time= a sub 20 fail


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## SuperNerd (Mar 15, 2010)

CuBeOrDiE said:


> lol here's my time when i'm all warmed up:
> 
> cross-3 seconds
> f2l-9 seconds
> ...



WOW. 4 second OLL and a 7 SECOND PLL????? dude, work on your recognition. Just, just, sit down with a cube, and stare at each and every PLL until you fine something that you can recognize instantly that is unique to that PLL.


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## vcuber13 (Mar 15, 2010)

SuperNerd said:


> CuBeOrDiE said:
> 
> 
> > lol here's my time when i'm all warmed up:
> ...



He might do 2-look PLL in which case could make him about 7 seconds


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## Rosette (Mar 15, 2010)

By the time I'm done with F2L

I'm like 15 seconds

I should practice looking ahead becuase

I insert F2L pairs like a maniac

I bet 5 seconds are from finding where the pairs are...


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## vcuber13 (Mar 15, 2010)

Rosette said:


> By the time I'm done with F2L
> 
> I'm like 15 seconds
> 
> ...



It depends on your cross and LL

Like if you have a 15 second F2L and a 20 second LL, then you need to practice your LL.

What about is your average?

If you sub-25 then yes, start learning looking ahead


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## Rosette (Mar 15, 2010)

My average is about 26

3 cross

15 F2L

3 to 5 OLL

4 PLL


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## Ranzha (Mar 15, 2010)

My average went down to 22 (finally).

Cross: 2-2.5.

F2L (without x-cross): 13ish.

OLL: 4ish.

PLL: 3ish. (2-look for G-perms. I don't want to learn them.)


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## Anthony (Mar 15, 2010)

Ranzha V. Emodrach said:


> (2-look for G-perms. I don't want to *get fast*.)



Fixed.

Orly?


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## Tim Major (Mar 15, 2010)

Cross: 2.5 (2.5)
F2l: 11 (8.5)
OLL: 13.5 (2.5)
PLL: 20 (6.5)

What's wrong with that^  On PLL, my recog sucks, and my execution sucks even though I've relearnt all the bad ones except N's (I can't find any n's that I can sub 2.5, not even sub 3.5)

I realise I need new PLLs, and I should finish my OLLs, but how can I practise PLL? PLL time attacks? But that doesn't cover recog. inb4practise Should I practise last slot last layer?


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## Rosette (Mar 15, 2010)

ZB_FTW!!! said:


> Cross: 2.5 (2.5)
> F2l: 11 (8.5)
> OLL: 13.5 (2.5)
> PLL: 20 (6.5)
> ...




N perms screw up my fingers for some reason..

Go slow on your OLL and try to predict your PLL

That helps my recognition little bit


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## bobso2 (Mar 15, 2010)

ChrisBird said:


> spdcbr said:
> 
> 
> > I think that I already pointed out that half were NOT hard cases.
> ...



can you refer me to this video?

thanks


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## jms_gears1 (Mar 15, 2010)

ZB_FTW!!! said:


> Cross: 2.5 (2.5)
> F2l: 11 (8.5)
> OLL: 13.5 (2.5)
> PLL: 20 (6.5)
> ...



I know of a great N perm , It takes more moves than needed but if you like T perms...

do:
BRD'R' T-perm RDR'B'

i actually dont do BRDR or RDRB i do an x rotation so its faster.


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## aronpm (Mar 15, 2010)

jms_gears1 said:


> I know of a great N perm, It takes more moves than needed but if you like T perms...
> 
> do:
> BRD'R' T-perm RDR'B'
> ...


That is a horrible N perm. The only thing that would make it worse is if it had L turns.

R' U R U' R' F' U' F R U R' F R' F' R U' R.

For the other N, I use [R U R' U] J perm [U' R U' R']. Long, but it's RUF.


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## rubiknewbie (Mar 23, 2010)

I use Pochmann's for both N. It is highly poppable when wrong force is applied but very sexy when done correctly. These algorithms are very difficult to write down because only my fingers know them.

R’ U R U’ R F’ U’ F R U R’ F R’ F’ R U’ R

R U’ R’ U l U F U’ R’ F’ R U’ R U l’ U R’


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## Raffael (Apr 1, 2010)

hey guys/ gals, I'm looking for some opinions on what i should focus my practicing on.

I did some splitting-up-my-solves today:

averages of the steps were:
F2L including cross: 12.2
LL: 6.5


Some additional facts:
- I use the Fridrich-method with 24/57 OLL's and full PLL.
- i had to use 2-look OLL in 56% of the solves
- cross without look-ahead for first pair: 1.85 avg
- cross with look-ahead for first pair: 3.2 avg
- I average 2.97 for PLL (see spoiler below for complete list)

the above breakdown (12.2 + 6.6 = 18.8) is pretty close to my normal average.

PLL-spoiler:


Spoiler



A1: 2.38, std: 0,24
A2: 2.43, std: 0,35
E: 3.45, std: 0,33
Z: 3.29, std: 0,27
H: 2.78, std: 0,33
U1: 1.90, std: 0,19
U2: 2.04, std: 0,16
J1: 1.79, std: 0,19
J2: 2.53, std: 0,31
T: 2.42, std: 0,25
R1: 2.88, std: 0,33
R2: 3.23, std: 0,21
F: 3.43, std: 0,52
G1: 3.29, std: 0,42
G2: 2.76, std: 0,29
G3: 2.84, std: 0,20
G4: 2.84, std: 0,17
V: 2.73, std: 0,12
N1: 3.91, std: 0,23
N2: 3.66, std: 0,34
Y: 2.86, std: 0,20

Total Average: 2,97


so, what do you think I should focus on?


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## iSpinz (Apr 1, 2010)

I think you should work on getting your PLL's at least sub-3 for hard ones(ie. N and G) and sub-2 for easy ones(ie. T(that should be sub-1.5), F, U, A, ect.)


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## nlCuber22 (Apr 4, 2010)

Raffael: Your H perm times are lmao.
If you're doing M2' using double-trigger ring/middle finger with your right hand, I would recommend doing U' and U2' instead of U and U2.


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## andrewunz1 (Apr 13, 2010)

hey can anyone help me with this problem.
I was at moose lodge open 2010 and in the 1st round i got a 17.89 avg. but in second round i got a 21.xx avg. I'm sub-20 most of the time but then for some reason i got 20.xx solves which i see as weird
any advice?


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## Carson (Apr 13, 2010)

andrewunz1 said:


> hey can anyone help me with this problem.
> I was at moose lodge open 2010 and in the 1st round i got a 17.89 avg. but in second round i got a 21.xx avg. I'm sub-20 most of the time but then for some reason i got 20.xx solves which i see as weird
> any advice?



Don't get nervous?


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## shelley (Apr 13, 2010)

Practice moar


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## Away (Apr 16, 2010)

Uhh... I need help getting faster D:. Just started speed-cubing a couple weeks ago.. Experienced a lot of growth in the first couple days but, I seemed to stop improving.
Currently, it takes me 4-6 Seconds for Cross, 12-15 Seconds for the F2L(not including cross time), and 14 seconds for LL. I create a cross on the last layer and use a OLL with cross already in it, then PLL Corners and Edges separately. Would learning the rest of OLL and PLL dramatically improve my time? =/ 34 Second average altogether =/


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## SuperNerd (Apr 16, 2010)

Away said:


> Uhh... I need help getting faster D:. Just started speed-cubing a couple weeks ago.. Experienced a lot of growth in the first couple days but, I seemed to stop improving.
> Currently, it takes me 4-6 Seconds for Cross, 12-15 Seconds for the F2L(not including cross time), and 14 seconds for LL. I create a cross on the last layer and use a OLL with cross already in it, then PLL Corners and Edges separately. Would learning the rest of OLL and PLL dramatically improve my time? =/ 34 Second average altogether =/



NO NO NO NO NO

Cross: 4-6 seconds? wat. Try this:

Scramble a cube, then spend 15 seconds or less examining it. Put on a blindfold, or close you eyes, and then solve the cross.

You're cross times are, in my opinion, waaaay out of proportion to your solve times.

Then, for the F2L, go slow and look ahead. Try not to focus on what you're doing. While you are solving one F2L pair, look for another, because you should already know exactly what to do to solve the pair you're working on. It's kind of confusing, but once you get it down, you've got it down. You really want to practice mainly F2L, as that is the majority of the solve.

For your LL, I think that after the cross is taken care of, full PLL is nice. Get all the Edge perms and corner perms, then go for the J's and the T and Y. After that, The V, F, N's, R's, and finally, the G's. But before learning full PLL, work on your cross and a little bit of the F2L. Learning PLL's is a little time consuming.

Really, I think that the F2L, including the cross, should be under 13-15 seconds before moving on to full OLL. Full OLL should be one of the LAST things you worry about. Sub 20, and probably sub 15 is very possible with 2LOLL, if you have a good F2L.


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## Away (Apr 17, 2010)

SuperNerd said:


> Away said:
> 
> 
> > Uhh... I need help getting faster D:. Just started speed-cubing a couple weeks ago.. Experienced a lot of growth in the first couple days but, I seemed to stop improving.
> ...



Thank you for your response. I'm currently practicing the blindfolding thing(well, with my eyes closed). I'm already seeing a bit of improvement- I no longer get the 6 second crosses, it's more 4 second-ish now. Umm, F2L, it's strange. When I slow down to look ahead, I get the same times as when I'm rushing.(I guess this is a good thing? :O) 

Lastly, is there a reason for the order in which to learn PLL?

On a side note: My Type FII, Mini DS, and QJ 4x4x4 just arrived in the mail


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## SuperNerd (Apr 17, 2010)

Away said:


> SuperNerd said:
> 
> 
> > Away said:
> ...



Well, I chose that order for the PLL based on how easy they are to recognize and how easy the algs are.

You don't really have to work on the PLL's in that order.

You can also try solving the cross with your eyes open, but also looking for the first F2L Pair while finishing it up.

One last thing that I recommend, is to get out a metronome, or an online one such as this one, and set it to 45 or so BPM. Then try to solve the cube, turning at every beat. Once you can successfully do that without pausing, speed it up. Keep doing this, and your look-ahead should dramatically improve.


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## fastcubesolver (May 3, 2010)

I now average around 35 seconds, but I'm trying to get faster. The Fricrich Method is really helping me. I recommend it to anyone.


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## TheCubeMaster5000 (May 9, 2010)

I think you can get sub 20 easily if you memorize _full_ pll and oll. 2look oll takes forever for me.


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## Dfgged (May 13, 2010)

TheCubeMaster5000 said:


> I think you can get sub 20 easily if you memorize _full_ pll and oll. 2look oll takes forever for me.



Really? I use 2L OLL and I can avg sub 20 easily, 18 normally and 17 or below with a lot of warm up. Still slow, but not *terribly* slow


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## TheCubeMaster5000 (May 22, 2010)

Oh............ well, at 20 seconds I have most likely just finished f2l... so 2LOLL takes another 5-7 seconds and PLL takes 3-7. I'm trying (_trying_) to look ahead in f2l and not just solve in short bursts.


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## ProfilesRubiks (May 22, 2010)

Eh, after learning full pll and 2 look oll, it took me awhile to get to sub 20, a few months, but since then i'm getting more and more avg's under sub 20, and now i'm learning full OLL.


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## cincyaviation (May 26, 2010)

TheCubeMaster5000 said:


> Oh............ well, at 20 seconds I have most likely just finished f2l... so 2LOLL takes another 5-7 seconds and PLL takes 3-7. I'm trying (_trying_) to look ahead in f2l and not just solve in short bursts.



3-7 seconds? practice until its at least 2-5, no excuse for going over 5 seconds if you know 1 look PLL


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## TheCubeMaster5000 (May 27, 2010)

I don't yet have all of the PLLs memorized. So I use 2look PLL for the ones I don't know for now. (I'm learning them in a specific order)


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## oprah62 (Jun 7, 2010)

This is mefor full pll and 53 olls cubing for 3 months now.
Cross:2
F2l:12
Oll:2-3
Pll:2-3

Overall average is about 20secs


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## Daniel Wu (Jun 7, 2010)

oprah62 said:


> This is mefor full pll and 53 olls cubing for 3 months now.
> Cross:2
> F2l:12
> Oll:2-3
> ...



Learn those last four OLLs. You'll feel much better.


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## oprah62 (Jun 7, 2010)

rickcube said:


> oprah62 said:
> 
> 
> > This is mefor full pll and 53 olls cubing for 3 months now.
> ...



im too lazy hahaha. now:54


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## cuberkid10 (Jun 7, 2010)

shelley said:


> SLOW DOWN AND LOOK AHEAD is much more important than GET GOOD ALGS, in my opinion. Case in point: it's well within the realm of possibility to reach sub-20 without knowing full OLL.



Its also possible to get sub 20 while only knowing 9 PLL's. And 6 OLLs.


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## TheCubeMaster5000 (Jun 22, 2010)

I just got 3 sub-20 singles in the past 2 days. 

I only know like 11 PLLs and 6 OLLs.


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## Matt S (Jun 22, 2010)

TheCubeMaster5000 said:


> I just got 3 sub-20 singles in the past 2 days.
> 
> I only know like 11 PLLs and 6 OLLs.



How many of those singles were four step last layers?

I know there are people who can average sub-20 with a four-look LL, but the path of least resistance with CFOP definitely involves learning all 21 PLLs (2-look OLL is fine).


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## Rpotts (Jun 22, 2010)

i finished OLL this weekend and am working on committing the last 7 or so to memory and decreasing recognition time. Yesterday also marks the day I broke sub 20 avg12 sooo for me I believe finishing CFOP gave me motivation to cube more, and also gave me tons of f2l practice which I am also getting substantially better at. I regularly get 15-16 second solves in my averages now, which feels great because I used to freak out when i would get a solve like that, now it's just an everyday occurrence.


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## TheCubeMaster5000 (Jun 25, 2010)

Matt S said:


> TheCubeMaster5000 said:
> 
> 
> > I just got 3 sub-20 singles in the past 2 days.
> ...



Most of them were probably 2look OLL and 1L PLL...
I'm still learning the rest of the PLLs I just haven't had the time lately to seriously get into memorizing more algs.


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## theace (Jul 2, 2010)

I know full pll and 2 look oll with a few easy cases (the ts, h, and the variation of h, and the kite). But somehow, i can't even go sub 25. I average between 26 and 35. Any tips? I.ll post detailed solve times soon


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## Inf3rn0 (Jul 2, 2010)

theace said:


> I know full pll and 2 look oll with a few easy cases (the ts, h, and the variation of h, and the kite). But somehow, i can't even go sub 25. I average between 26 and 35. Any tips? I.ll post detailed solve times soon



Slow down and look ahead. Try to be constantly turning during F2L


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## theace (Jul 5, 2010)

Working on it. Getting more consistent at sub 30 over time. Look ahead helps like mad!


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## partylikeaturtle (Aug 3, 2010)

I'm using the 2LOLL and 2LPLL and I'm finding immediate identification difficult...

Although I have yet to learn F2L, my record is currently 26.72 seconds, using the full beginner's method...


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## musicninja17 (Aug 3, 2010)

partylikeaturtle said:


> I'm using the 2LOLL and 2LPLL and I'm finding immediate identification difficult...
> 
> Although I have yet to learn F2L, my record is currently 26.72 seconds, using the full beginner's method...



Yes, but full F2l will make you even faster.


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## partylikeaturtle (Aug 3, 2010)

I'm planning on F2L, once I get more comfortable with the 4LLL, probably in a few days I'll check it out, and after that, I'll probably get the DIY...


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## jackblk (Aug 9, 2010)

Thanks a lot.


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## adfoote (Aug 12, 2010)

i do all that stuff and i know full OLL and PLL,but i avg like 23-24 so i guess its just practice. today my lookahead was godlike, so i got a 22.5 avg. which is damn good, even though my pb avg is 21.53 (ps, my pb solve is a 16.59- pll skip and extreme speed i guess.)


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## Andrew Ricci (Aug 19, 2010)

I dunno. I guess some people are different. I average 28.5 seconds, with 3 second cross, 15 second F2L, and 10.5 second LL. I use full Pll and 2Look Oll. I just have a slow LL.


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## cyoubx (Aug 19, 2010)

I use 3LLL as well, and I've cut down my last layer to around 6-7 seconds.
Try to get your PLL algs to 3 seconds


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## dillonbladez (Aug 19, 2010)

Suggestion:
Go to http://lightake.com and buy a set of maru core+hardware, a C4Y core (just in case), and a Type C
Use that for a week. This will almost definately improve your accuracy unless
a) You already use a Type C, or any other cube with low corner cutting
b) You're Yu Nakajima

For most people, using their F-IIs, they have low accuracy, causing lockups and the like. I avg'd 22-23, then used my Type C (which is awesome btw), Switched back to F-II, and BAM sub-20... except for comp.. lol


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## Lexity (Sep 4, 2010)

I'm aiming for sub-30 by the end of this year, thanks so much for this guide! Current times are:

Cross - 5 seconds
F2L - 30 seconds
OLL - 10 seconds (2 look)
PLL - 5 seconds (1 look)

Yeah I realise it takes me like 7.5 seconds per F2L pair, I go too quickly and guess where pieces are too much, eg. back left edge showing blue to the left and white/blue/orange corner front left, and trying to slot it without checking if its the right edge.

Also I really really don't like using my N perms but haven't managed to find any better ones yet. I use (R' U L' U2 R U' L) twice and its mirror for the left.


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## Fepp (Sep 5, 2010)

I avg like 40. I really gotta work on my cross though, lol. Sometimes it takes like 6-7 secs :fp Good tips here! But I still can't get how to be able to do all four cross edges "on the same time"


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## dillonbladez (Sep 5, 2010)

Fepp said:


> I avg like 40. I really gotta work on my cross though, lol. Sometimes it takes like 6-7 secs :fp Good tips here! But I still can't get how to be able to do all four cross edges "on the same time"



Lemme explain 
You can't do all cross edges at the exact same time, this is true (unless it's like a M2). What they mean (i assume) is that you need to put your edges in, but in a way that converts "bad edges" to good ones. BadMephisto has a video on that. http://www.youtube.com/badmephisto#p/u/4/hY_FbpdNRCQ
or


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## cuberkid10 (Sep 8, 2010)

How To Be Sub-20:

PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE!!!!
I only know 17 PLL's, and I dont even know all of 2 look OLL, and Im sub-20. Practice...


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## dillonbladez (Sep 8, 2010)

cuberkid10 said:


> How To Be Sub-20:
> 
> PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE!!!!
> I only know 17 PLL's, and I dont even know all of 2 look OLL, and Im sub-20. Practice...



More like
PRACTICE YOUR F2L EXCLUSIVELY 
meaning devoting one of your cubes to be a "F2L training cube" (No LL stickers.)


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## Andrew Ricci (Sep 8, 2010)

dillonbladez said:


> cuberkid10 said:
> 
> 
> > How To Be Sub-20:
> ...



Not necessarily, no. Just from LOTS of solving the cube, not specifically f2l, I do my F2l in about 12 seconds. My LL is the thing that needs work.


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## choza244 (Sep 9, 2010)

cuberkid10 said:


> How To Be Sub-20:
> 
> PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE!!!!
> I only know 17 PLL's, and I dont even know all of 2 look OLL, and Im sub-20. Practice...



so u sometimes do the sun alg 2 or 3 times to get the oll done?? i really want to know because i know all pll and half oll and still get 25s jeje


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## uberCuber (Sep 9, 2010)

choza244 said:


> cuberkid10 said:
> 
> 
> > How To Be Sub-20:
> ...



it can always be done with 2


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## cyoubx (Sep 9, 2010)

uberCuber said:


> choza244 said:
> 
> 
> > cuberkid10 said:
> ...



Exactly: 2 sunes = 2 seconds. OLL probably takes around 3 seconds. PLL takes, say 3 seconds. That leaves 13 seconds for cross+F2L for a 19 second solve. Very doable.


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## FatBoyXPC (Sep 9, 2010)

Don't forget about a second for PLL recognition. Not everybody can PLL in 3 seconds (that takes a fair amount of practice.

cyoubx: Do a breakdown solve of at least F2L/OLL/PLL and you tell me what your times are  I can do all PLLs sub3 when practicing (took a bit of time though, I just need to turn PLL slow and I can 2.5 or better all PLLs), but when in an actual solve, do to AUF (before and/or after PLL) my PLL is commonly 4.2ish. My OLL is almost always sub3 though, so that makes up for it usually.


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## cyoubx (Sep 9, 2010)

fatboyxpc said:


> Don't forget about a second for PLL recognition. Not everybody can PLL in 3 seconds (that takes a fair amount of practice.
> 
> cyoubx: Do a breakdown solve of at least F2L/OLL/PLL and you tell me what your times are  I can do all PLLs sub3 when practicing (took a bit of time though, I just need to turn PLL slow and I can 2.5 or better all PLLs), but when in an actual solve, do to AUF (before and/or after PLL) my PLL is commonly 4.2ish. My OLL is almost always sub3 though, so that makes up for it usually.



Oops, I forgot recognition...teehee. Either way, my point was mainly that it was doable, not so much plebeian. I'm right around 20-21, getting killed by the cross. 

Cross+F2L = 15 :fp (Cross up to 4 seconds, and F2l usually sub 12.)
OLL (I know 38 cases, and 2LOLL for the others) = 2-3 (this is what I'm best at)
PLL (all) < 3 except for N's which are about 3.5

Just last week, I was averaging around 23, but I've dropped two seconds since then. F2L was my main weakness, so I'm tuning that, and cross, up for sub 20, then full OLL!!! haha


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## cuberkid10 (Sep 11, 2010)

choza244 said:


> cuberkid10 said:
> 
> 
> > How To Be Sub-20:
> ...



Thats basically what I do. For example, the triple sune. I do a regular sune, a U' and then a reverse sune to do the OLL. I've memo'd those patterns, so there are no pauses there. 

My F2L is only 11-12 seconds, which gives me about a 6-7 LL..


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## Chrisadws (Sep 28, 2010)

I would suggest learning those 13, they will really help for your hard cases


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## yockee (Oct 9, 2010)

Hands down, the VERY BEST site for F2L algs, as well as algs from different angles, is www.cubestation.co.uk


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## yockee (Oct 10, 2010)

*cross*



Fepp said:


> I avg like 40. I really gotta work on my cross though, lol. Sometimes it takes like 6-7 secs :fp Good tips here! But I still can't get how to be able to do all four cross edges "on the same time"


 
If you want to see some pretty good cross examples, in addition to a tripple x-cross, I have a video on my you tube channel, called color neutral walkthrough solves. My channel is Xxoxia. It'll give you a good idea on how to do efficient crosses.


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## Rpotts (Oct 11, 2010)

yockee said:


> Hands down, the VERY BEST site for F2L algs, as well as algs from different angles, is www.cubestation.co.uk


 

macky's site is better
http://www.cubefreak.net/speed/cfop/f2l.html

dan harris' is pretty good, but not the hands down, very best

don't forget the wiki [wiki]f2l[/wiki]


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## RyanReese09 (Oct 21, 2010)

Really i just practiced to achieve sub20

i average 18ish flag (sometimes 18.2 sometimes 17.9x)

10-11 second f2l (on an 18 second solve, lower f2l times = faster solve)
OLL really depends, on average I'd say OLL in 2 seconds (on average)
recognition+execution= the rest of the time
i can sub3 most PLLs (most I can sub2 but N(b) i 2.6, and N(a) is around 3.1)


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## person123 (Oct 26, 2010)

*How to sub-20?*

helloooooooo


okay, so i average about 23 seconds, maybe less sometimes. you can see my cubemania graph thingy, im astrokillernaut. I know 38/57 olls approximately,and average 11-12 seconds on f2l average, sometimes less, or more :O. i know all plls, and my cross is okay. i might post a vid later, dont have time right now, 


thanks you1!!?!?!?!!?!


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## cyoubx (Oct 26, 2010)

My F2L is about the same, and I average 18 consistently. So maybe try executing LL faster. Also, try going slow in Cross + F2L. After all, you only need about 3 tps to get sub 20.
I was stuck at 23 for a couple weeks as well. One other thing that helped me was thinking about getting 5 seconds faster, rather than breaking 20. If you have a mindset to break 20 seconds, you'll start to slow improvement when you get to 21 sec. Instead, by making it "5 seconds faster," it's an arbitrary number that you constantly shoot for, so you completely forget about the "barrier."


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## Zarxrax (Oct 26, 2010)

You mentioned in your own post that you dont know all the OLLs yet. I would think that if you finish learning those and keep practicing, you will probably get to sub-20...


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## dimwmuni (Oct 26, 2010)

I think all that you need to sub-20 is finish learning the OLLs and work on PLL execution. Also practice F2L slowly it should help. 



cyoubx said:


> One other thing that helped me was thinking about getting 5 seconds faster, rather than breaking 20. If you have a mindset to break 20 seconds, you'll start to slow improvement when you get to 21 sec. Instead, by making it "5 seconds faster," it's an arbitrary number that you constantly shoot for, so you completely forget about the "barrier."



That is a really good idea, I've never thought of it that way.


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## Louis McDonald (Oct 26, 2010)

Zarxrax said:


> You mentioned in your own post that you dont know all the OLLs yet. I would think that if you finish learning those and keep practicing, you will probably get to sub-20...


 
Im sub 20 and know only the cross olls and line olls, (18sec) when you get down to its just practise


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## qqwref (Oct 26, 2010)

Step 1: Learn the rest of OLL.

Step 2: Turn at least this fast:


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## freshcuber (Oct 26, 2010)

Wow that vid is crazy lol. Dudes just sitting there mega-chill doing like 3tps. It helps that he can speed up his PLL and OLL execution in case he gets close to 20 but still extremely impressive. Lesson officially learned.


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## avgdi (Oct 26, 2010)

I've never seen that video before, but it was really helpful.


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## Away (Oct 26, 2010)

I wish I had your problem. I'm 23s avg as well. I have an 8 second cross average.


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## FatBoyXPC (Oct 26, 2010)

You must have an amazing F2L + LL to get 23 seconds on an 8 second cross. 5s for LL (which is pretty fast) would you put at a 10s F2L. My F2L + cross is around 12-13, I'd like it to get around 9-10.


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## FatBoyXPC (Oct 26, 2010)

My F2L + cross is 12-13 and I'm kind of sub20 (quite a few averages of 50 sub20 and a lot of averages of 5 and 12 that are sub20, officially not yet though, plan to change that at Dayton).


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## blakedacuber (Oct 26, 2010)

i avg 21 and my f2l takes 13-15 seconds Ive beeen stuck at this for around 4 or 5 months any tips?


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## lorki3 (Oct 26, 2010)

blakedacuber said:


> i avg 21 and my f2l takes 13-15 seconds Ive beeen stuck at this for around 4 or 5 months any tips?


 
How many OLL's do you know? For the rest its just practise.


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## blakedacuber (Oct 26, 2010)

35 but for some its quicker to do 2look cause i terrible t them like the one with all corners oriented and no edges


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## Rpotts (Oct 26, 2010)

For that case I recently learned a new alg. Try (M' U') (R' U' R U) M2 (U' R' U r) If that doesn't feel great, I also use it's mirror/reflection. (M U) (R U R' U') M2 ( U R U' r') I used to use M' y (R' U') (R U) (R U) (R U' R') y' M but that alg sucks. 

I recommend finishing OLL, once you get used to an alg (if it's good) it will soon be faster than it's 2 look variant. If you have any cases left that 2 look is particularly bad for, like no edges cases that give you headlights or something, learn those OLLs first. The cases that can be solved by F (SM) F' then sune are bottom priority.


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## blakedacuber (Oct 26, 2010)

i kinda thoght myself how to end up wit a sune or headlights or cameleon for the algs i dont know but still the time it takes is not good


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## ilikecubing (Nov 13, 2010)

how do u guys hav sub 15 f2ls....just amazing.my f2l + cross is sub 35:fp .

Is it because i use only my hands and u use fingertricks,or is it because u know all algorithms for advanced f2l cases....or is it bcoz u r pros in multislotting?? plz reply


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## Fepp (Nov 13, 2010)

Made my first sub-20, 19.41 

And it wasn't too lucky!


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## RyanReese09 (Nov 13, 2010)

ilikecubing said:


> how do u guys hav sub 15 f2ls....just amazing.my f2l + cross is sub 35:fp .
> 
> Is it because i use only my hands and u use fingertricks,or is it because u know all algorithms for advanced f2l cases....or is it bcoz u r pros in multislotting?? plz reply


 honestly just practice..try tracking peices as you insert one (that way you know what to do instantly)


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## ilikecubing (Nov 13, 2010)

RyanReese09 said:


> honestly just practice..try tracking peices as you insert one (that way you know what to do instantly)


 
ok but what if d pieces r on back side and i m solving a pair on the front side,and what if a corner is in the D layer and its corresponding edge is in M layer but at some other part of the cube,how wud i track?


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## RyanReese09 (Nov 13, 2010)

easy. know what you have to do to solve the f2l case (u should know it)
have ur eyes never leave the peice(s)
try tracking one at first
what i do is i track a corner (or edge) and i use an iamge in my head as to where the other peice is (or its relative location so its easy to find)


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## XXGeneration (Nov 13, 2010)

Is it possible for anyone to give tips on achieving sub 15?
I finally am averaging 17.xx with the occasional 16.xx Ao5.


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## RyanReese09 (Nov 13, 2010)

XXGeneration said:


> Is it possible for anyone to give tips on achieving sub 15?
> I finally am averaging 17.xx with the occasional 16.xx Ao5.


 
give us ur splits or a video .cant say what u need work on.


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## XXGeneration (Nov 13, 2010)

My sub 15 solves have a split of about 8-9 seconds f2l, and the rest LL + recognition.
my average solve will be about 10-11 f2l and the rest LL + recognition.
I'm guessing f2l fluidity would be what i need to work on, but often my F2l can end at maybe 6 or 7 and i'll still get times of 13 or 14.


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## FatBoyXPC (Nov 13, 2010)

Well you really need to know your LL time to see what F2L you need to achieve. In all honesty though, until you get your F2L down around 5s, you know it can be improved. If you can sub2 all OLLs and PLLs, and recognize each case in sub1, then a 6s LL shouldn't be out of reach for you. If you can do 8-9s F2L you'll be teetering on the 15s mark for the whole solve.


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## PoviIas (Dec 31, 2010)

That is my pretty new video.
How should I improve my spining speed?
Could a better cube help me?
Now I am using DIY type A. I do not really like it.
Thank you in advance.


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## cyoubx (Dec 31, 2010)

Is this what you average, or a better-than-average solve? It's hard to judge by just one solve, but I would say turning speed could definitely be faster.
Also, I'm not that much faster than you (around 15 second average), but one thing I would do would be to have less pauses between F2L pairs. The cross could be a tad faster as well; it seemed choppy instead of smooth in the video.


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## shuantsu (Dec 31, 2010)

I'm sub25. I got better on F2L by training a lot. 

My f2l is ~15
My LL is ~10

So I think I should focus in Last Layer now. Learn the rest of OLL (I know 35%) and get better PLL algs (hate F and V). Will get a better cube and lubricant too. I have a AII, but the lubricant I use is making it worse.

Getting the f2l under 12 seconds and having sup-20 times is getting annoying


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## sofeeuhh (Apr 8, 2011)

> It's well within the realm of possibility to reach sub-20 without knowing full OLL.


To support this, I average consistently around 17 seconds, my PB average of 5 is 13.62, and my PB average of 12 is 15.64. I only know 2-look OLL and full PLL. The only reason why I can get good times is because my F2L is fairly advanced and I use look-ahead. (And no, I didn't say these things to brag, I'm just trying to say that learning full OLL isn't necessary at all to reach sub-20)


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## RTh (Apr 8, 2011)

Reaching sub-20 with 2OLL is more than possible. The problem is that most cubers aren't fast enough when they are averaging over 20, so they start learning OLL since they believe that their algs are somehow slow (and I include myself). But while they learn full OLL they practice very much and get better and better.

On topic: Lookahead and practice are the only secrets. Practising the PLL algs to recognize them instantly, as well as the OLL cases, is very important.

I've noticed that most of my slow solves occur with bad F2L pairing/lookahead, or slow recognition. Normally bad cross isn't the problem. Just today I got a 15 sec. solve with a 4 sec cross.


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## Mr Cubism (Apr 9, 2011)

It´s funny with planning the cross before the solve and a good looking ahead; it simply means that *you don´t see what you´e doing* the first two layers.


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## Coke (Apr 16, 2011)

YAY I got sub 20!

And this helped me out a lot!

thanks!!!


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## antoineccantin (Apr 16, 2011)

sofeeuhh said:


> > It's well within the realm of possibility to reach sub-20 without knowing full OLL.
> 
> 
> To support this, I average consistently around 17 seconds, my PB average of 5 is 13.62, and my PB average of 12 is 15.64. I only know 2-look OLL and full PLL. The only reason why I can get good times is because my F2L is fairly advanced and I use look-ahead. (And no, I didn't say these things to brag, I'm just trying to say that learning full OLL isn't necessary at all to reach sub-20)



I average 15-17 and dont even know full PLL (it is just a few algs I dont know).


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## blue7777100 (May 10, 2011)

at what time would you suggest to start learning full OLL because im about 19 seconds consitantly shud it be time to start learning them?


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## RyanReese09 (May 10, 2011)

blue7777100 said:


> at what time would you suggest to start learning full OLL because im about 19 seconds consitantly shud it be time to start learning them?


 
You could wait. Just start learning whenever you feel like it. It really doesn't matter.


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## Rpotts (May 10, 2011)

atleast learn easy ones like the easy C shape, big lightning and the fat sune family. The sooner you start learning them the sooner they will feel comfortable in solves i.e. help you get faster.


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## Selkie (May 10, 2011)

As other said when you are comfortable. The task of learning full OLL looks daunting but it really isn't if taken slowly. I started full OLL after learning PLL and it took me about 6 weeks. I limited myself to 1 OLL a day (2 if it was a mirror). Personally I started with dot cases (which in reality is 3 look in 2 look!), there are also a large number of very easy cases (Wide Sunes, C's, etc that will give you a quick win for little memorisation)

The advantage of starting earlier is then your OLL recognition, execution, and overall experience etc will scale with your other skills when practicing. The later you start the later you take a hit to your times and a bigger effect that hit will have.

I am seeing faster improvement now that I have in a couple of months. I put that down to finishing full OLL about 2 months ago and the majority of them being firmly in muscle memory. In fact I miss learning algs now so am going to be starting on VHF2L in the nerxt coupel of weeks 

The advise I would give though is do not rely on a single site for your algs. I did this initially and had to relearn 8 OLLs as they suited me better. There are two more (1+mirror) I want to change this week, then I will be happy. Use the Wiki here to choose the best algs for you from the outset.

And best of luck if you choose to take the OLL plunge


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## Mal (May 13, 2011)

Thankyou for this I have been having trouble with my F2L it takes me way to long so thankyou.


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## Incanumix (May 14, 2011)

Sharkretriver said:


> I just saw this, and thanks for posting! I'm getting a lot of sub-20s just from this post, but srsly, a 6 second cross and 10 second LL sucks! Should I do time attacks and blindfold crosses?


 
Do blind folded cross if you find that your cross isn't fast enough for you.
But 6 seconds is quite slow, you should be able to solve it in under 8 moves, and 4~5 seconds.
But aim for your F2L, F2L is the most important thing in my view, if you've got a fast F2L, then you've got a fast solve.


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## rubiksnerd246 (Jun 20, 2011)

thanks ive been trying SO much to get sub 20 and this has helped alot


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## Gorpendor (Jul 13, 2011)

thanks. i bet this is gonna help.


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## Jaycee (Jul 17, 2011)

*Stuck in front of 20 seconds, Help?*

Well, I've been cubing since late January this year, and my solves mostly average anywhere between 20 and 31 seconds. My personal best is 20.11 (lol). No matter how hard I try, I just can't sub 20! I've had full PLL memorized for months now, although I do need new algs for 3 or 4 cases. I'm over halfway to having full OLL done, and most of my algs suit me nicely. I've figured out a few F2L cases myself, but for the most part my F2L is slow and my cross is average at best. My question is : should I continue with full OLL, or should I cover up my weak spot and learn intuitive F2L and X-Cross?

Oh, by the way : new user here. Ask any questions! xD


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## yockee (Jul 17, 2011)

Jaycee said:


> Well, I've been cubing since late January this year, and my solves mostly average anywhere between 20 and 31 seconds. My personal best is 20.11 (lol). No matter how hard I try, I just can't sub 20! I've had full PLL memorized for months now, although I do need new algs for 3 or 4 cases. I'm over halfway to having full OLL done, and most of my algs suit me nicely. I've figured out a few F2L cases myself, but for the most part my F2L is slow and my cross is average at best. My question is : should I continue with full OLL, or should I cover up my weak spot and learn intuitive F2L and X-Cross? Oh, by the way : new user here. Ask any questions! xD



First of all, I spent like, 8 months stuck at 22, so don't worry. Most people find the sub 20 barrier the hardest to break. Second, which algs do you need to replace for PLL? I have some great ones. I've switched algs several times over the years, and feel confident that you would like the ones I give you. Also, I would put OLL on hold for now, and just practice F2L including cross. It will be the thing that makes or breaks your times, really. Oh, and don't waste your time worrying about X-cross. Just work on looking ahead and slowing down.


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## RTh (Jul 17, 2011)

@ Jaycee, solve slower, look-ahead, use intuitive F2L. Practice everyday and try to shave seconds off steadily.

Just practice.

Also a good cube will be a good idea. Like a Guhong or Zhanchi.


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## Jaycee (Jul 17, 2011)

Slight problem with that : my dad refuses to buy me a new cube. :/ We tried to get a black Guhong DIY a couple weeks ago from cubeforyou, but according to him the only way you can pay there is with a PayPal account, which he doesn't have. Believe it or not, I'm actually getting these times on a store-bought Transformers cube that's extremely broken in and that I replaced the stickers on.

@yockee Thanks. I think what I'll do is memorize 2 more OLLs and then work on cross and F2L. Right now i'm looking through the wiki here for new PLL algs, and I'm actually finding some ones that, with a little practice, I could be better with than the ones I've been using for months! T_T I appreciate the help


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## Hershey (Jul 17, 2011)

Jaycee said:


> Slight problem with that : my dad refuses to buy me a new cube.


 
You could buy a cube at a competition if someone is selling one.


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## WhiteKiwi (Jul 18, 2011)

OMG this was sooooooo helpful!!! 
Just after I read the thread i did an average of 5 and i got 19.02 ))


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## Jorghi (Jul 29, 2011)

Sub 20 seems hard............... I have 21 days to shave 8 seconds. Starting now.


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## Datak (Aug 20, 2011)

I also have a question, I am averaging around 20 seconds and I just started doing look ahead. to get faster. Any ideas to help me?


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## curtishousley (Sep 7, 2011)

I have a question about slowing down for F2L, to help with look ahead. My average is 45 seconds, when I slow down for the F2L it slows down my times drastically, it seems that when I try to do look ahead it just confuses me a lot more. Is it something that would help me in the long run to keep trying? Maybe its similar to when I first learned F2L, I was much slower till I got familiar with doing it. Thanks


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## Rpotts (Sep 7, 2011)

curtishousley said:


> I have a question about slowing down for F2L, to help with look ahead. My average is 45 seconds, when I slow down for the F2L it slows down my times drastically, it seems that when I try to do look ahead it just confuses me a lot more*. Is it something that would help me in the long run to keep trying? Maybe its similar to when I first learned F2L, I was much slower till I got familiar with doing it. Thanks*


 
this is correct. Practice.

Trying anything new will likely slow you down at first.

Force yourself to not look at the f2l pieces you are solving, look at the rest of the cube and try to find at least one unsolved piece and track it.

Good luck.


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## CuberOz (Sep 10, 2011)

I have just finished learning all the PLLs should i look to refine my F2L or learn the rest of the OLLs?


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## SkaterFly (Sep 10, 2011)

CuberOz said:


> I have just finished learning all the PLLs should i look to refine my F2L or learn the rest of the OLLs?


 
Refine your F2L is what most people would say, definitely. You can start slowly learning some/the easy OLLs, but F2L is mainly what makes your times so high. I'd say learn full OLL when you're at least sub 25


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## PandaCuber (Sep 10, 2011)

Okay, Ive finished with my PLL. Should I learn all the F2L algorithms or find better intuitive moves?


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## MeshuggahX (Sep 10, 2011)

PandaCuber said:


> Okay, Ive finished with my PLL. Should I learn all the F2L algorithms or find better intuitive moves?


 I think you should do intuitive moves. I would think that it's easier to be flexible and understand the F2L step that way. But you could always watch how other would solve certain cases and check tips and algorithms for the "Pain-in-the-ass"-cases.


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## Cheese11 (Sep 19, 2011)

PandaCuber said:


> Okay, Ive finished with my PLL. Should I learn all the F2L algorithms or find better intuitive moves?


 
Start on OLL


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## Godmil (Sep 19, 2011)

PandaCuber said:


> Okay, Ive finished with my PLL. Should I learn all the F2L algorithms or find better intuitive moves?


 
Do both, look at all the algs and see exactly what they're doing, then you should be able to do them mirrored each way for whatever slot they need to go into.
And yeah, learn OLL at the same time


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## Juju (Sep 25, 2011)

I'll second that you should learn OLL at the same time as refining F2L. It's not like F2L and OLL are competing with each other. The sooner you learn full OLL the sooner your recognition and execution of OLL will go down.


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## jaywong88 (Oct 27, 2011)

i'm still learning PLL for G Permutation a-d..hard to recognize the pattern..lol..but still practice make perfect..
F2L keep working..OLL, after the PLL will start doing full OLL..


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## FatBoyXPC (Nov 9, 2011)

Jaywong88: If you use the standard G perm algorithms then you should always put headlights on the Left face. From here you can easily recognize how to start the alg ,and muscle memory should kick in after that.

You have 4 cases, the bar will be in: Back, Front, Right pointing to Back, Right pointing to Front.

In the case of back/front bar, you do R2 then a the u or u' to move the right edge toward the bar. So bar in back would be R2 u', bar in F would be R2 u.

Right bar: I think of this as removing the FR or BR slot, in the direction the bar is pointing. So bar in R pointing to F you do R U R', bar in right pointing to B you do R' U' R.

Hope that helped


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## JCVP11 (Jan 26, 2012)

Hi Guys.. I have just joined this forum today..
My avg on the 3x3 is 26 seconds.. do u think I should start learning full pll and oll to get faster?
Thank You


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## Godmil (Jan 26, 2012)

JCVP11 said:


> Hi Guys.. I have just joined this forum today..
> My avg on the 3x3 is 26 seconds.. do u think I should start learning full pll and oll to get faster?
> Thank You



Welcome to the forums. Yes... You'll probably want to learn them eventually, so you may aswell do it sooner rather than later... as long as you're happy doing that... it's important to keep it fun


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## BrainOfSweden (Jan 26, 2012)

skeletonboy said:


> Wow, I learned F2L and OLL,PLL much earlier compared to other recommendations...I started F2l when I averaged about 1min40seconds. And I started Full-look OLL and Full look PLL when I averaged around a minute. I've heard people say to start learning F2L when you average under 50....Why is that? Is it better for the long term if I start Fridrich method late?


I think it's good to start with it early. After all, F2L can be completed intuitively, thus making it very easy to learn. For some people it might be easier to learn new algs, and I recall learning 2LPLL and 2LOLL faster than F2L, but with F2L, it was all about understanding. OLL and PLL was just drilling, drilling, drilling. So to sum it up I'd say it depends on your personal preferences. If you learn F2L when you Sub-2 minutes, great. If you wait until you reach Sub-50, well also great.


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## skeletonboy (Jan 28, 2012)

BrainOfSweden said:


> I think it's good to start with it early. After all, F2L can be completed intuitively, thus making it very easy to learn. For some people it might be easier to learn new algs, and I recall learning 2LPLL and 2LOLL faster than F2L, but with F2L, it was all about understanding. OLL and PLL was just drilling, drilling, drilling. So to sum it up I'd say it depends on your personal preferences. If you learn F2L when you Sub-2 minutes, great. If you wait until you reach Sub-50, well also great.


 
I think I figured out with previous threads and posts but thank you for replying! I appreciate it since that was a old un-answered question!


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## jaywong88 (Jan 29, 2012)

i doing F2L abuat 6 months..my pb 16.84s, my av still around 28-29s, 
this forum (the advice to become sub 20 ) really cool but i think we still need practice a lot,
my question is if we already in the right patch doing F2L, how long do we have to practice so that can become sub 20??


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## sprout (Feb 16, 2012)

i slow down and look ahead, but still average 14 seconds for f2l


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## Chrisalead (Feb 16, 2012)

One thing people often forgot is to be able to insert F2L in any slot from anywhere (when it is possible without cube rotation of course). When I was averaging around 23s it really helped me to decrease my times a lot ! It's really important.


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## sukesh12 (Feb 17, 2012)

actually 11 second f2l helps. I'm slow cos my last layers are pretty long. Any suggestions for my improvement?


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## JLarsen (Feb 17, 2012)

Are you slow at recognition or execution? Both? What last layer system are you using? 2 look? 3 look? 

An easy way to practice is to apply two or more random OLLs or PLLs and then try to recognize + execute whatever case you generate. PLL time attacks are good too. Or, you can just try to pick out the algs you're slow at and drill them for a while. Maybe even try to come up with some new executions or learn some better algs.


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## skeletonboy (Feb 17, 2012)

sukesh12 said:


> actually 11 second f2l helps. I'm slow cos my last layers are pretty long. Any suggestions for my improvement?


 
Try learning a faster recognition. There are many techniques on recognizing perms like G perms...eh. Another way is just to practice it over and over again until you are comfortable with the recognition, soon you'll be very quick with it. 
Are you using 2LLL, 3LLL or 4LLL? Of course lower looks would be better, but it does take a long time to memorize, this point is kind of obvious.


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## ThomasJE (Feb 17, 2012)

sukesh12 said:


> actually 11 second f2l helps. I'm slow cos my last layers are pretty long. Any suggestions for my improvement?



Try the Last Layer Competition. It's basically where you solve the last layer as quick as possible. For this round's scrambles, click here. There are 2H and OH categories. The round ends tomorrow, though; then a new round will start.


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## CoryThigpen (Feb 26, 2012)

I recently started doing this for quicker F2L:
Instead of a (y') cube rotation for when you need to insert into the FR slot, do a (y) instead and insert into the BL slot. You will find your next pair much faster. Here's a setup: R U R' U' R U2 R' L U' L' y'. Rather than a y' R U R' do a y L U L' and you'll see the last pair right away. Hope this helps some. Good luck.


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## Eileen (Feb 28, 2012)

Nice Thread!  I found lot of helpfull replys in here!
I have a question... I can be single times sub20 but not constantly...  and I try to be sub20 every time but that don't work. When I see other cubers... they cubing not as long as be but have better times and I can't be sub20 >_< I don't know how to be constantly sub20... any ideas? How can you be constantly sub20? What helps you?


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## nightpegasus738 (May 18, 2012)

Very helpful! 
But I try my best and have got just 4 times sub-20. 18.59, 19.27, 19.44 and 19.81 (the signature won't change)
I always get times of sub-25 but above 20.
I need some more help!


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## TomWood (Jun 8, 2012)

hey guys Im sitting around 30 seconds at the moment with all but G perms and N perms learnt and im looking at a 5 second cross ( too long I know) 15-20 second F2L and 5-10 second LL (mainly over 5 if its a G or N) I use intuitive F2L and thats where I want to focus some time at the moment in cutting down. Is learning algs for F2L a bad idea? How should I cut down my times? Do you guys use intuitive and get really fast at it to get sub 20?


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## god of rubic 2 (Jun 8, 2012)

TomWood said:


> hey guys Im sitting around 30 seconds at the moment with all but G perms and N perms learnt and im looking at a 5 second cross ( too long I know) 15-20 second F2L and 5-10 second LL (mainly over 5 if its a G or N) I use intuitive F2L and thats where I want to focus some time at the moment in cutting down. Is learning algs for F2L a bad idea? How should I cut down my times? Do you guys use intuitive and get really fast at it to get sub 20?



What I did when I was around 27 second average, I looked up algs for stuck pieces in F2L and visualised how the pieces moved around the cube, then using the method of just understanding how the pieces move around you don't need the algs anymore and just use your intuitiveness for the F2L.

Your last layer is probably quicker than mine, I know about 25 PLL algs (some from different angles) I usually average 6 - 7 seconds on the LL. Your PLL algs should all be under 3 seconds and you should learn ALL the 21 PLLs.

Your cross should be sub 4 seconds, at least sub 5, it should be on the bottom and while solving the cross you shouldn't look at the cross but try to find the first pair.

Hope I helped


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## TomWood (Jun 8, 2012)

Thanks heaps yeah helped a lot  I'll work on my cross as well, I've been adamant about having it on top for some reason lol (Just stubborness) but I guess I'll change my ways now haha


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## peterbone (Jun 8, 2012)

TomWood said:


> hey guys Im sitting around 30 seconds at the moment with all but G perms and N perms learnt and im looking at a 5 second cross ( too long I know) 15-20 second F2L and 5-10 second LL (mainly over 5 if its a G or N) I use intuitive F2L and thats where I want to focus some time at the moment in cutting down. Is learning algs for F2L a bad idea? How should I cut down my times? Do you guys use intuitive and get really fast at it to get sub 20?


Do you do F2L pairs from different angles to reduce turning the whole cube? You don't need to learn each alg from the 4 different angles but at your level you should be able to perform your intuitive algs from the front and the back. Also, learn algs for a few of the more difficult cases, shown here http://badmephisto.com/f2l.php .


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## kilwap147 (Jun 8, 2012)

Yeah, I'm around 30-35, and I would LOVE to break into the 20's on average. I'm now working on the last few PLL cases. I basically knew all of them except the N perms (which I now know), and the G perms (still working--got the first one memorized). After that, I may start working on OLLs, but I think I really want to learn more F2L too. I do it intuitively, but I think I would really like to learn some algorithms. There are some ways of doing it that you just can't visualize yourself sometimes. So it helps to learn other ways. And like god of rubic 2 said, I think I'll learn them mechanically, and that should help a lot. After that, I'll brush up on my cross. Good luck to you!


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## TomWood (Jun 10, 2012)

kilwap147 said:


> Yeah, I'm around 30-35, and I would LOVE to break into the 20's on average. I'm now working on the last few PLL cases. I basically knew all of them except the N perms (which I now know), and the G perms (still working--got the first one memorized). After that, I may start working on OLLs, but I think I really want to learn more F2L too. I do it intuitively, but I think I would really like to learn some algorithms. There are some ways of doing it that you just can't visualize yourself sometimes. So it helps to learn other ways. And like god of rubic 2 said, I think I'll learn them mechanically, and that should help a lot. After that, I'll brush up on my cross. Good luck to you!



Yeah I am in a very similar position to you! I am going to spend time on F2L and Cross over OLL which isn't going to save me a whole lot of time especially for how long I'll be learning those algs for  and yeah peterbone I do my pairs from different angles although probably not as much as I could


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## maxyso (Jun 10, 2012)

What should you do if you don't immediately see a f2l pair. i kinda start to panic and it messes up my solves.


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## TomWood (Jun 10, 2012)

I find it is ok if you cant see the whole pair at first focus on the corner and then look for the edge, dont try everything too quickly when you arent 100 percent confident  Just find the corner and get it ready and while you are look for the edge and you'll slowly get faster


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## ThomasJE (Jun 10, 2012)

maxyso said:


> What should you do if you don't immediately see a f2l pair. i kinda start to panic and it messes up my solves.



I tend to find a piece while I'm doing the previous pair, and then track that piece while I look for the other piece. If I don't see it, then it tends to be at the back of the cube. Try that with slow solves, and then slowly speed up.


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## Mudkip (Jul 11, 2012)

*Advice for becoming sub 20.*

Hi, I have been cubing for about 16 months now, and average near 14 seconds. Becoming sub 20 has been one of the most difficult plateaus to overcome, and I believe I may have some ways to make it easier. It is likely you have heard some of these, but I hope you can take something away from this. 

If you currently average 21-25 seconds, you probably know basic Cfop with 3/4 look last layer. If you somehow got here without learning F2l, doing so is your first priority. I will be covering cfop, because I think it most common.

Cross: Your goal here should be to solve it in 2-3 seconds. Keep in mind it can almost always be done in 8 moves or less. Look into as much of it as you can during inspection such that you never stop turing during the cross-f2l transition. 

F2l: Lookahead is very important here. When solving, turn only as fast as you can look at the next two pieces you will be finishing. It is neccessary here that you are quite familiar with how to solve each case. Try to solve each pair without looking, so that you never need to stop turning during F2l. Practice slow-turning will dramatically improve your times here. 

OLL: All you need for sub 20 is 2-look. When learning these algorithms, it is important to try different kinds. Don't always pick the first one you see, because your algorithm selection is significant in your times. It all comes down to personal preference.

PLL: Very much the same as OLL in the sence of learning algorithms. All you really need for sub 20 is 2-look, but it is often reccomended that you learn full. Keep in mind that PLL only contains 21 algs, while OLL has 57.

Final thoughts: Lookahead is key guys. Keep that in mind and you will get there sooner than you think.


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## Ickathu (Jul 11, 2012)

Mudkip said:


> If you currently average 21-25 seconds, you probably know basic Cfop with 3/4 look last layer. If you somehow got here without learning F2l, doing so is your first priority. I will be covering cfop, because I think it most common.



If you currently average 21-25 seconds and know full LL, just focus on F2L.
^^ ME
I get (got, now using roux) F2L in about 15 seconds, and LL takes me til 21-24 (<<< Lame alg execution speed). Try to get F2L done before 13, preferrably 11 or faster.


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## Ninja Storm (Jul 11, 2012)

Actually, it'd be better to increase the speed on your LL algs if you average 24 with 15 second F2L. The CF to OP ratio should be about 2:1. Theoretically, this would mean someone who has a 15-second F2L should optimally have a 7.5 second LL.


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## drogg (Jul 27, 2012)

Wonder if someone can help me out here? Currently struggling to break the sub 20 barrier (averaging 23-24) but thankfully I've identified a few things to work on to try and aid me.

One of these is my transition between cross and f2l. I've never really noticed that I'm making any huge losses here but I figured it can't help to improve. So to try and do this I watched a few youtube videos that all state it is a good idea to do blind cross (which I do from time to time) and to track a corner piece while doing the cross. So I attempted to do the latter while doing my cross and found that my cross and first f2l pair time was 9s on average (which is clearly outrageous for someone aiming for sub-20! But I do find it very difficult to keep track of a corner while solving the cross). I wasn't convinced that this was my normal cross and first f2l pair timing as my entire f2l average is 15s.

So I decided to do some solves where I don't actually track a corner piece but try and just focus on the rest of the cube, and not the cross edges, while doing my cross in order to quickly identify an f2l pair when I'm finished. I found my average doing this for cross + first f2l pair was more like 5s. 

Now I am a little confused... Firstly is a cross and first f2l pair average of 5s good enough for someone aiming to be sub-20? Secondly is it worth me continuing attempting to track corner pieces until my times get a little lower as I can see the benefit of tracking a piece during cross building as it should be beneficial knowing where a corner is when doing the first f2l pair?

Help is appreciated.


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## WonderBear (Jul 27, 2012)

I'm no expert but here is a little bit of advice for tracking practice. 

Buy a couple of extra cubes and sticker sets, nothing fancy, cheap DIYs will work. Sticker the first DIY, but ONLY the white cross (or whatever your first color is) and a single f2l pair. Obviously this makes tracking incredibly easy. What this will for you is get you used to subconsciously understanding how various pieces are affected by different algs. Once you get this down (not hard, probably only take a couple solves) start adding more f2l pairs, eventually you'll have a stickered cube except for LL stickers. Then you can just jump back onto your normal speed cube. What also helps is if you can afford four DIYs and set each up with a different number of f2l pairs, then you can go back and practice various stages whenever you want. 

Hope that helps.


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## Smiles (Jul 28, 2012)

drogg said:


> Wonder if someone can help me out here? Currently struggling to break the sub 20 barrier (averaging 23-24) but thankfully I've identified a few things to work on to try and aid me.
> 
> One of these is my transition between cross and f2l. I've never really noticed that I'm making any huge losses here but I figured it can't help to improve. So to try and do this I watched a few youtube videos that all state it is a good idea to do blind cross (which I do from time to time) and to track a corner piece while doing the cross. So I attempted to do the latter while doing my cross and found that my cross and first f2l pair time was 9s on average (which is clearly outrageous for someone aiming for sub-20! But I do find it very difficult to keep track of a corner while solving the cross). I wasn't convinced that this was my normal cross and first f2l pair timing as my entire f2l average is 15s.
> 
> ...



I personally don't work on my transition so much. Not that mine is any good, but it's not like I'm having a huge pause.
I average 16, and for me breaking the 20 second barrier was mostly just practice.

Do you slow down and look ahead during F2L? cause simply by doing that during the cross as well can help you to track pieces.
And if you've had enough experience with the cube, you actually wouldn't have to track the corner piece. If your cross is simple enough and you chose a good piece to track, you should be able to guess where it'll end up during inspection. However, if you have a tough cross, then you should just track it.

Another thing that helped me get sub 20 is just F2L practice. I would not time myself, just slow down to the point where I never have to pause until OLL.
If you're comfortable with your F2L algs, you should be able to perform them without thinking, thus allowing you to look around the cube and even rotate the cube a bit in your hand while you're solving an F2L case.

I've never solved the cross blindfolded to practice, but I think that it works if you struggle with your cross. Basically, you should never have to think about your cross or look for a cross piece during your solve. The entire cross should be done in your mind during inspection. If you can do this, then you can track a corner and make your transition smoother.


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## airwind336 (Aug 21, 2012)

Thank you! This helped me


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## IQubic (Nov 10, 2012)

Just wondering, can you get sub-20 with a store bought Rubik's brand cube? I currently use CFOP.
5s-Cross
36s-F2L
9s-2 Look OLL
6s-1 look PLL
I average about 1 minute, so there is room for improvement. Can you give me ways you think I can improve my times?


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## o2gulo (Nov 10, 2012)

IQubic said:


> Just wondering, can you get sub-20 with a store bought Rubik's brand cube? I currently use CFOP.
> 5s-Cross
> 36s-F2L
> 9s-2 Look OLL
> ...



I think so, with a lot of breaking in and some lubrication will help.

I think you should focus more on your F2L, slow down (this helps) and look ahead, before you do look ahead, make sure you're comfortable with the F2L Algs you're using, search for F2L algs/tips around. then If you're confident enough and can execute algs smoothly, then you can go practice look ahead ^_^

EDIT: Since cubes are really accesible now, maybe you could try buying a speedcube(Maybe a WitYou or something from the DaYan line) If you're really serious about speed solving. Anyway, having a Rubik's brand isn't bad at all, I was using a storebought until I sub-30 then changed to a GuHong V2 lol


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## JasonK (Nov 10, 2012)

IQubic said:


> Just wondering, can you get sub-20 with a store bought Rubik's brand cube? I currently use CFOP.



Yes, but it'll be easier with a better cube.


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## IQubic (Nov 10, 2012)

Well my cube is lubed, as of five days ago. The cube is five days old. I tried using a metronome for F2L, 1 turn per tone, but that was awful, I wanted to turn the cube faster. As for algs, I solve F2L intuitively, so should I learn them or not? If so which ones?
I still average around 1 minute, unfortunately. so any ideas?


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## o2gulo (Nov 10, 2012)

IQubic said:


> Well my cube is lubed, as of five days ago. The cube is five days old. I tried using a metronome for F2L, 1 turn per tone, but that was awful, I wanted to turn the cube faster. As for algs, I solve F2L intuitively, so should I learn them or not? If so which ones?
> I still average around 1 minute, unfortunately. so any ideas?



I dunno. I never liked memorizing algs so, I made up my own algs or like that. Look up for videos online, there are tons of them, of, if you just lubricated your cube, try also sanding your storebought cube. It might help  Try to find optimal solutions for each pair and reduce cube rotations, this might seem awkward at first but after a lil' bit of practice you will get used to it


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## IQubic (Nov 10, 2012)

o2gulo said:


> I dunno. I never liked memorizing algs so, I made up my own algs or like that. Look up for videos online, there are tons of them, of, if you just lubricated your cube, try also sanding your storebought cube. It might help  Try to find optimal solutions for each pair and reduce cube rotations, this might seem awkward at first but after a lil' bit of practice you will get used to it


By optimal you mean fastest? Sanding with sandpaper or real sand? You do not mean complete F2L with no cube rotations, have you seen the video made by cyoubx on the matter? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Js1LZscj18A&feature=plcp


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## o2gulo (Nov 10, 2012)

IQubic said:


> By optimal you mean fastest? Sanding with sandpaper or real sand? You do not mean complete F2L with no cube rotations, have you seen the video made by cyoubx on the matter? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Js1LZscj18A&feature=plcp




A sandpaper will do ( I heard that real sand also works!) But Be careful do not sand too much  
By optimal, Um, I think it's not the fastest but, the minimum number of moves I think? I'm no expert on that thing though.
But if you can can execute your algs very fast, why not?
I have not completely seen cyoubx's video, but I mean, cube rotations are fine, but you do not need to do it frequently ,
like, before I insert the slot on the right side only ( I can not insert a pair on other side and I had to rotate it very frequently) but now I can insert pairs on the left, and on the back without , thus reducing cube rotations, but not to zero rotations. Aaahhhh


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## IQubic (Nov 10, 2012)

Well I just started learning VHLS, to reduce time/moves lost during EOLL. Is not the method you would use? Should I stop trying to learn VHLS. Also how do you spot F2L pairs. A.K.A. lookahead. Any tips? Oh, and are cube rotations good or bad for spotting pairs?


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## ThomasJE (Nov 10, 2012)

IQubic said:


> Well I just started learning VHLS, to reduce time/moves lost during EOLL. Is not the method you would use? Should I stop trying to learn VHLS. Also how do you spot F2L pairs. A.K.A. lookahead. Any tips?



If you want to start LL with edges oriented, ZZ would be a more efficient option.


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## IanTheCuber (Nov 10, 2012)

I use CFOP with a ZhanChi. My status:
Cross: 3-4s
F2L: 8-10s
OLL (full): 2.5s
PLL (full): 3.5s
Average around 20s, but not sub-20 .


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## IQubic (Nov 10, 2012)

ZZ? Okey, that method is far to complex for me, I tryed to learn it a while back and the first part stumped me: flip the edges correctly. How does a F move flip 4 edges? I could attempt it again if there was a tutorial for it somewhere. In the mean time I am fine with VHLS.


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## ThomasJE (Nov 10, 2012)

IQubic said:


> ZZ? Okey, that method is far to complex for me, I tryed to learn it a while back and the first part stumped me: flip the edges correctly. How does a F move flip 4 edges? I could attempt it again if there was a tutorial for it somewhere. In the mean time I am fine with VHLS.



http://cube.crider.co.uk/
Arguably the best text tutorial and where I learnt.


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## aznanimedude (Nov 10, 2012)

Also in my SIG are 2 links. First is the text one in above post, second is a youtube playlist of a video tutorial a small kitten did. Check it out if you wish


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## IQubic (Nov 10, 2012)

Thank you so much!! ZZ here I come. Wait, can you the same COLL and PLL algs in ZZ as fridrich? Or is there a better LL approach then COLL PLL? Also rules for checking if an edge is"good" or "bad" How do you do it, how fast are you at it, and when do you find EOline pieces? Thank you so much for bringing this method to life. Also I will do my best to spread the word of ZZ to fellow speed cubers.


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## ThomasJE (Nov 10, 2012)

IQubic said:


> Thank you so much!! ZZ here I come. Wait arg can you the same COLL and PLL algs in ZZ as fridrich? Or is there a better LL approach then COLL PLL?



Most fast ZZers co COLL/EPLL, but OCLL/PLL is equally fine. And you can use the same algs in ZZ as you do in CFOP. The main point of EO is to get a faster F2L and an easier 2LLL, so once you're at the LL, you can do whatever you want to finish the cube.


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## aznanimedude (Nov 10, 2012)

Regular ocll + pll and coll + epll are the 2 most popular. You could also do winter variation for oll skips into pll. Or there's phasing into zzll or just full on zbll after f2l. That's one of the nice things is the flexibility in all you can have.


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## MarcelP (Nov 10, 2012)

ThomasJE said:


> Most fast ZZers co COLL/EPLL, but OCLL/PLL is equally fine. And you can use the same algs in ZZ as you do in CFOP. The main point of EO is to get a faster F2L and an easier 2LLL, so once you're at the LL, you can do whatever you want to finish the cube.



Thomas, what are your averages of let's say Ao12 on ZZ now? I am interested in switching to ZZ also.


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## ThomasJE (Nov 10, 2012)

MarcelP said:


> Thomas, what are your averages of let's say Ao12 on ZZ now? I am interested in switching to ZZ also.



Well, out of 21 solves I've done today, my best Ao12 is 26.24. My PB ZZ Ao12 is 23.91 seconds. I do have to work on my blockbuilding though.


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## Hunter (Nov 10, 2012)

IanTheCuber said:


> I use CFOP with a ZhanChi. My status:
> Cross: 3-4s
> F2L: 8-10s
> OLL (full): 2.5s
> ...



Practice nothing but cross for like a week, and buy a 50mm Zhanchi.


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## MarcelP (Nov 10, 2012)

ThomasJE said:


> Well, out of 21 solves I've done today, my best Ao12 is 26.24. My PB ZZ Ao12 is 23.91 seconds. I do have to work on my blockbuilding though.



Nice times!


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## IQubic (Nov 10, 2012)

for all you ZZ users, I could use some help with edge detection, edge flipping, and EOline.


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## ThomasJE (Nov 10, 2012)

IQubic said:


> for all you ZZ users, I could use some help with edge detection, edge flipping, and EOline.



If you want tips on ZZ, the best place to go would be the ZZ/ZB Home Thread. As for edge detection, look here: http://cube.crider.co.uk/zz.php?p=eoline#eo_detection. The other information you're looking for is lower down the page.


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## IQubic (Nov 11, 2012)

This ZZ talk is all good, except I think I will stay with CFOP. There is still my F2L to improve upon.


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## kevinccce (Jan 29, 2013)

Thanks for the tips. I will apply it on my next practice. The blind-folded solving of the cross.


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## cube (Feb 2, 2013)

Sub 20 without full OLL? Wow!! I seriously need to work on my cross/f2l, because right now they are taking a very long time......

Thanks
-cube


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## Bestsimple (Feb 3, 2013)

2look oll doesn't really make you solve that much slower when your at that speed. F2l is the part of the solve that takes up the most time so you should work on that.


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## Ninja Storm (Feb 3, 2013)

Bestsimple said:


> 2look oll doesn't really make you solve that much slower when your at that speed. F2l is the part of the solve that takes up the most time so you should work on that.



^ This
The most 2-Look OLL will speed you up is around 2-seconds. Memorizing all those algorithms for it isn't worth it if you don't have a good grasp of F2L. Learn that first.


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## IQubic (Feb 17, 2013)

will doing metronome solve for f2l help?


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## PCwizCube (Feb 18, 2013)

IQubic said:


> will doing metronome solve for f2l help?


Yes, using a metronome will help you look ahead better in F2L. If you're not sure how to use the metronome to help you practice looking ahead, this video tutorial on looking ahead might help.


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## IQubic (Feb 20, 2013)

I will try that. Also has anyone reconstucted feliks zemdeg's 5.66 WR solve?


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## PCwizCube (Feb 20, 2013)

IQubic said:


> I will try that. Also has anyone reconstucted feliks zemdeg's 5.66 WR solve?


Yes.
http://www.speedsolving.com/forum/showthread.php?30155-5-66-3x3x3-WR-Single-Feliks-Zemdegs


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## IQubic (Feb 23, 2013)

Thank you so much! I will look that over soon.


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## DavidCubie (Feb 28, 2013)

Full OLL is overrated. Practising f2l, fingertricks and lookahead is much more important than Full OLL.


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## yoshinator (Mar 2, 2013)

DavidCubie said:


> Full OLL is overrated. Practising f2l, fingertricks and lookahead is much more important than Full OLL.



I think that it's more that people overestimate how hard it is to learn. It only took me about a month.
I'm not saying that F2L is not WAY more important than full OLL (because it is), I'm just saying that full OLL is easier to learn (than it is to improve your F2L) and shaves off at least 2 seconds.


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## speedcuber50 (May 26, 2013)

I've done most of that and I still can't get sub-20.

I use 2LOLL and 1LPLL (most cases). However, Cross + F2L takes me at least 15 seconds (usually 18).

What now?


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## googlebleh (May 26, 2013)

speedcuber50 said:


> I use 2LOLL and 1LPLL (most cases). However, *Cross + F2L takes me at least 15 seconds (usually 18)*.



Well there's your problem. How do you expect to get 2 sec LL with a 3-look system? I think with a 15 sec F2L it'll be a squeeze, but you might be able to sub-20 with it. Cross should be 3 seconds at the most (or 3.5 if it's a really hard one) so that should give you about 11 secs for F2L pairs. That should be pretty adequate, but ofc if you have your OCLLs and PLLs down then that gives you even more time for each pair.

Bottom line: Cross/F2L is where you should focus. The splits above are what I'd recommend, not necessarily what is the best for you.


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## kcl (May 26, 2013)

yoshinator said:


> I think that it's more that people overestimate how hard it is to learn. It only took me about a month.
> I'm not saying that F2L is not WAY more important than full OLL (because it is), I'm just saying that full OLL is easier to learn (than it is to improve your F2L) and shaves off at least 2 seconds.



Random question.. I'm done with Cross+F2l at around 11-13 seconds normally, and I average about 17. I know something like 20 OLLs. Should I learn the rest, or is it better to try and shave a second off F2l?


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## Lagom (May 26, 2013)

kclejeune said:


> Random question.. I'm done with Cross+F2l at around 11-13 seconds normally, and I average about 17. I know something like 20 OLLs. Should I learn the rest, or is it better to try and shave a second off F2l?



I find learning new algs and practicing on the f2l at the same time to be convenient  youtube some f2l tricks!


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## kcl (May 26, 2013)

Lagom said:


> I find learning new algs and practicing on the f2l at the same time to be convenient  youtube some f2l tricks!



I'm always practicing F2l, but it isn't super intense practice. I've been trying to speed up my LL since it takes like 8 seconds.. way too slow.


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## Lagom (May 26, 2013)

Full oll is nice...however, i saw some guy on YT doing an ao5 with 4LLL at about 12 seconds


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## kcl (May 26, 2013)

Lagom said:


> Full oll is nice...however, i saw some guy on YT doing an ao5 with 4LLL at about 12 seconds



Wow.. I get slower times if I have to orient all 4 edges. If I screw up edge control then yeah..


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## Lagom (May 26, 2013)

kclejeune said:


> I'm always practicing F2l, but it isn't super intense practice. I've been trying to speed up my LL since it takes like 8 seconds.. way too slow.



Yeah every solve is practice, but you should have sessions where you learn new f2l tricks/algs as well! There are some good ones on YT  
Color neutral? 
I just started a week ago, im white/yellow and pretty much blue. Just white/yellow probably lowered my average with a second


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## kcl (May 26, 2013)

Lagom said:


> Yeah every solve is practice, but you should have sessions where you learn new f2l tricks/algs as well! There are some good ones on YT
> Color neutral?
> I just started a week ago, im white/yellow and pretty much blue. Just white/yellow probably lowered my average with a second



I use white, yellow if cross is like 1 move and will save me the time that will be wasted in F2l. Actually blue isn't that hard for me.. Idk why. It's easier then yellow lol


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## Smiles (May 26, 2013)

your LL isn't slow. you said 8 seconds but if your F2L is 11-13 and you average 17, then it's 4-6 seconds. other than learning algs (which you should do) it's really hard to "work on" LL other than drilling. but at that point if your F2L is worse proportionally to your LL, it'll take way more work to fix your F2L.
if your F2L is good you consider yourself blessed but don't stop working on it.


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## speedcuber50 (May 29, 2013)

Well, I got 19 seconds today...


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## xAnon (May 30, 2013)

It's really hard for me to get to sub 20 average but am hitting 15.xx - 17.xx - 18.xx single but i average 21.xx  

My F2L (Pre-cross) is 9 seconds average is 10 is that good am practicing my f2l since yesterday


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## Jorghi (May 30, 2013)

^ That's is plenty good. If you know 2 Look OLL and maybe full PLL you should be sub 20.


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## McBeef (Aug 4, 2013)

Hello everyone as the title states, I cannot get sub 20s often. my PB is like 14.xx (very lucky solve) but my AO5 is around 24 so here are the facts of my solves.

CFOP
Cross: 3-5 (seconds)
F2L: 10-13 
OLL:3-4 
PLL:~5 seconds.

I know a few oll algs.
I know full pll
I know Intuitive f2l (should I get to algorithmic f2l?)

obviously I need practice but anything else that you guys can help me with? 

If you guys and gals want a video I can try to get one out but im not sure if I actually can thanks to everyone and have a wonderful day!!


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## TheCuber23 (Aug 4, 2013)

I recommend learning look ahead.


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## TheNextFeliks (Aug 4, 2013)

Your pll is so slow. Cross could also be improved.


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## Akiro (Aug 4, 2013)

You shouldn't go to algorithmic F2L... stay with intuitive F2L, you won't regret it
And your PLLs are way too long...
Check out videos of PLL execution (for the fingertricks) and be able to at least sub-3 each of them

Also, plan out your cross during inspection, so you can do it in 3 sec max each time.


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## CheesecakeCuber (Aug 4, 2013)

Your cross should be a lot shorter...Def werk on your PLL. Do PLL time attacks and try to get each alg under 2 seconds. And ofc look ahead during F2L. I think Collinbxyz has some interesting stuff on Cubingworld (youtube).


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## sneaklyfox (Aug 4, 2013)

Intuitive F2L is fine, but if you find yourself taking more than 8 moves to solve a case you might want to look up an algorithm or figure out how to be more efficient and use less moves. And yeah, practice look ahead.


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## kunparekh18 (Aug 4, 2013)

All PLLs should ideally be sub-2

Work on C+F and get them to around 13s, cross should be max 3s, work on transitions, look ahead more


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## PeelingStickers (Aug 4, 2013)

PLL lets me down too. Work on recognition more than anything as that will aid you in the hunt for sub 15.

Practice just the cross, it helped me get consistent sub 8 move crosses. After that, track F2L pairs so ou can do Cross+1 fluidly. A good start to a solve is exactly what you need.

F2L lookahead will come with practice. I promise you.


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## linusyeong (Sep 29, 2013)

So what are the recommended time spent on each stage for CFOP? Like 4 seconds on Cross etc.


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## TheNextFeliks (Sep 29, 2013)

linusyeong said:


> So what are the recommended time spent on each stage for CFOP? Like 4 seconds on Cross etc.



Lol not 4. 

Cross: 2.5
F2L: 10
OLL: 3.3
PLL: 4.2


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## kunparekh18 (Sep 29, 2013)

How about how on getting sub-20 OH? :/


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## TheNextFeliks (Sep 29, 2013)

kunparekh18 said:


> How about how on getting sub-20 OH? :/



Page 1. Basically same thing. Good algs. Practice. That's it.


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## noobium (Sep 30, 2013)

I currently average around 26sec and I did a few split and here are my results:
Cross:3.95(15%)
F2L:14.13(53.8%)
LL:8.19(31,2%)
Ave:26.275

So the average of the split is representative of my current performances... I was wondering what is my weakest point and what I should work on the most. Also, I would like to know where it should be easier to cut some time because it looks a lot like a typical solve(66% on F2L and 33% on the LL)

Thanks,


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## Tim Major (Sep 30, 2013)

kunparekh18 said:


> How about how on getting sub-20 OH? :/



I used to average low 20, had a few sub 20 averages but I wasn't consistent. For me, I found that my algorithms were never going to be "fast" or comparable to a 20 second 3x3 solver. Cross+F2L should take about 13 seconds or less, last layer takes longer OH than a 20 second 2H solver. Work on having absolutely no pauses in F2L, whilst turning as fast as you can. Once you can turn as fast as you can manage during F2L WHILST looking ahead, you will likely be sub 20.

Edit: Also review bad OLLs/PLLs and replace them with more suitable OH ones. I use different algorithms for H, Z, U, N, V, F perms (and maybe others) for example. I also use different OLLs for some cases.

Edit:


noobium said:


> I currently average around 26sec and I did a few split and here are my results:
> Cross:3.95(15%)
> F2L:14.13(53.8%)
> LL:8.19(31,2%)
> ...



Your F2L can be improved by a lot. Just work on practising F2L cases until you can see a case then perform it without looking. Once you get to this stage it is easy to look ahead. I am sure you are easily turning fast enough to be below 20, your only barrier is your lookahead and familiarity with F2L cases.


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## BillyRain (Sep 30, 2013)

I need to time my splits... I am sub20.. but there is alot of things I've missed in my practice. I could potentially be alot faster than I am now if I went back to the basics and caught up with myself.


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## kunparekh18 (Sep 30, 2013)

Tim Major said:


> I used to average low 20, had a few sub 20 averages but I wasn't consistent. For me, I found that my algorithms were never going to be "fast" or comparable to a 20 second 3x3 solver. Cross+F2L should take about 13 seconds or less, last layer takes longer OH than a 20 second 2H solver. Work on having absolutely no pauses in F2L, whilst turning as fast as you can. Once you can turn as fast as you can manage during F2L WHILST looking ahead, you will likely be sub 20.
> 
> Edit: Also review bad OLLs/PLLs and replace them with more suitable OH ones. I use different algorithms for H, Z, U, N, V, F perms (and maybe others) for example. I also use different OLLs for some cases.



Thanks a lot, I'm kinda at the same stage right now, need to lookahead at f2l. Have found awesome OH PLLs for each and every case, now I just need to get good OLLs and drill them.


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## rj (Sep 30, 2013)

noobium said:


> I currently average around 26sec and I did a few split and here are my results:
> Cross:3.95(15%)
> F2L:14.13(53.8%)
> LL:8.19(31,2%)
> ...



Cross and F2L. Do you use full O/PLL?


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## ravenguild08 (Sep 30, 2013)

kunparekh18 said:


> How about how on getting sub-20 OH? :/



Approach OH as a separate event from 2H. The style is different where you focus on confining bursts of moves to just <R, U, L>. You should pay the most attention to edge orientation during F2L and try to solve all the edges you can in one orientation before doing a y or y' to switch to the other edges.

As Tim Major says, learn new algorithms that are better for OH, especially for the bad ones like H, V, F, Y. If you don't want to learn new OLLs, just do 2-look OLL but pick the best algs for you for EO. For example, I would probably use r U2' R' U' R U' r. 
Edit: see my sig for my alg library, which I created explicitly for OH. You might need to mirror them, though

And to up your TPS, practice a lot, not just turning but also idle turning while walking around or reading or things like that. I'm still working on this aspect myself...


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## darckhitet (Oct 6, 2013)

*I can't get sub 20!!!*

I can't get sub 20 times and i am full fridrich and know half of the COLL's 

Cross: 6 seconds avg

F2L: 7 - 9 seconds avg

OLL: 3 - 4 seconds avg

PLL: 4 - 6 seconds avg

In cross - f2l transition i loss from 3 to 5 seconds


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## UnsolvedCypher (Oct 6, 2013)

Practice doing the cross blindfolded, drill your OLL and PLL algs, practice lookahead, especially recognizing the OLL during your last slot F2L execution.


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## rj (Oct 6, 2013)

darckhitet said:


> I can't get sub 20 times and i am full fridrich and know half of the COLL's
> 
> Cross: 6 seconds avg
> 
> ...



What do you average?


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## TheNextFeliks (Oct 6, 2013)

rj said:


> What do you average?



Looks like 20-25 to me. 

So, your cross absolutely sucks. The pll is pretty bad too. Your f2l is good. I avg 16-17 and my f2l is about the same.


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## RaresB (Oct 6, 2013)

darckhitet said:


> I can't get sub 20 times and i am full fridrich and know half of the COLL's
> 
> Cross: 6 seconds avg
> 
> ...



Its great that you are able to identify your weaknesses but you also have to work towards making them strengths. Try practicing only cross + 1 for a while. During the cross try to either visualize where your corner edge pair will end up, track a corner edge pair or execute the cross without looking so that you can look for a corner edge pair. Your cross times also seem out of proportiom. Try to solve the cross more efficiently and memorize your cross during inspection.


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## darckhitet (Oct 6, 2013)

i avg 27 but i frequently get like 5 or 6 20 - 22s solves on my avg's


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## rj (Oct 6, 2013)

darckhitet said:


> i avg 27 but i frequently get like 5 or 6 20 - 22s solves on my avg's



So you're about my times. Work on cross-F2L transition. Drill PLL. Work on cross.


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## Noahaha (Oct 6, 2013)

6 second cross is really really bad. Try to be more efficient and at least identify the locations of the pieces in inspection.


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## uniacto (Oct 7, 2013)

Full Fridrich is nice. I'm two look OLL and not full PLL, and I'm still sub 20. Work on your cross and transitions. Just drill algs for LL, if you must.


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## ianliu64 (Oct 7, 2013)

Work on your PLL and Cross.


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## immortalchaos29 (Oct 7, 2013)

That cross is going to be the easiest and fastest way for you to reduce times. Make sure you are practicing it properly. Here are some common ideas:

-Use as much time as necessary to plan the whole solution
-Don't practice other steps (just do cross+1) then rescramble
-Learn some cross finger tricks such as those Badmephisto teaches and plan finger friendly crosses (including D2 double flick, if you can't already)
-Practice BLD crosses
-As this gets easy to do, start following an f2l pair.


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## sneaklyfox (Oct 7, 2013)

Your cross is very very slow compared to the rest of the solve. I bet you're not planning full cross during inspection aiming for less than 8 moves. 5.81 moves is average for single cross colour so that's like 1 move per second...


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## AFatTick (Oct 9, 2013)

Spend some time planning your cross before you solve. I usually solve my cross is 1-3 seconds. It should be a simple pop-into-place with some finger tricks. Good luck.


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## brian724080 (Oct 11, 2013)

Try working with 2 look OLL and PLL first. You don't need COLL at this stage AT ALL.
Most importantly, your cross is horrid, sped time planning every step out and try doing it BLD, it should be well within three seconds.


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## RubiksJake12 (Dec 23, 2013)

I find this an appropriate place to ask. I've read not all of this thread, but a few pages. From what I gather, slowing down and being able to look ahead is going to get me sub 20. I currently spend an average of 4-5 seconds on cross, and about 10-11 seconds (average) on the rest of the f2l. That means about 14-16 seconds (average) on the f2l in general. My average for the entire cube is around 23 seconds with my bests being around 16. I'm very close to being sub 20 but have been at about 23 second average for around a month without much improvement. What would your recommendations for me be knowing my general times? I'll try to post a video if I can soon.


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## Lchu613 (Dec 23, 2013)

I crossed 20 seconds just by practicing really.
Also you can study how various F2L pairs can be inserted and try to find more efficient ways and stuff. Lookahead is vital, gotta be able to see your next pair.


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## RubiksJake12 (Dec 23, 2013)

Lchu613 said:


> I crossed 20 seconds just by practicing really.
> Also you can study how various F2L pairs can be inserted and try to find more efficient ways and stuff. Lookahead is vital, gotta be able to see your next pair.



Was that to me? Usually I would agree, but for some reason I've been practicing for a whole month now without breaking sub 20 averages. I have been studying all that I can find for the F2L. Do you have any website suggestions? Video Suggestions? personal suggestions? I'll admit for some of the harder F2L cases I haven't learned actual algorithms. I've made up my own.


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## TheNextFeliks (Dec 23, 2013)

RubiksJake12 said:


> I find this an appropriate place to ask. I've read not all of this thread, but a few pages. From what I gather, slowing down and being able to look ahead is going to get me sub 20. I currently spend an average of 4-5 seconds on cross, and about 10-11 seconds (average) on the rest of the f2l. That means about 14-16 seconds (average) on the f2l in general. My average for the entire cube is around 23 seconds with my bests being around 16. I'm very close to being sub 20 but have been at about 23 second average for around a month without much improvement. What would your recommendations for me be knowing my general times? I'll try to post a video if I can soon.



Your cross is bad. Try to plan it all out in inspection.


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## TDM (Dec 23, 2013)

RubiksJake12 said:


> I find this an appropriate place to ask. I've read not all of this thread, but a few pages. From what I gather, slowing down and being able to look ahead is going to get me sub 20. I currently spend an average of 4-5 seconds on cross, and about 10-11 seconds (average) on the rest of the f2l. That means about 14-16 seconds (average) on the f2l in general. My average for the entire cube is around 23 seconds with my bests being around 16. I'm very close to being sub 20 but have been at about 23 second average for around a month without much improvement. What would your recommendations for me be knowing my general times? I'll try to post a video if I can soon.


Your cross is definitely too slow. Your LL is fine; mine is the same speed and I have a sub-10 F2L. Try to plan cross in inspection and get it 8 moves or less every time. Try to find fast solutions as well as short ones. Also, try looking ahead more during F2L; if you can eliminate (or even just reduce) pauses that'll help your times by a lot.


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## RubiksJake12 (Dec 23, 2013)

TDM said:


> Your cross is definitely too slow. Your LL is fine; mine is the same speed and I have a sub-10 F2L. Try to plan cross in inspection and get it 8 moves or less every time. Try to find fast solutions as well as short ones. Also, try looking ahead more during F2L; if you can eliminate (or even just reduce) pauses that'll help your times by a lot.



Alright, thank you. I think I'll focus on my cross to start. How would you say the best way to practice the cross would be? Do it without looking?



TheNextFeliks said:


> Your cross is bad. Try to plan it all out in inspection.



Thank you very much. Can you give me a suggestion on how best to practice my cross? And maybe give me an average goal for how long it should take me? I don't know how long it takes most people sub 20/15 to do the cross.


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## TDM (Dec 23, 2013)

RubiksJake12 said:


> Thank you very much. Can you give me a suggestion on how best to practice my cross? And maybe give me an average goal for how long it should take me? I don't know how long it takes most people sub 20/15 to do the cross.


I think many people around my speed (17ish) take 2 seconds to do the cross. If you're trying to get sub-20, you'd probably want 2.5 seconds max for your cross. Try planning your cross and then doing it without looking. You don't really want to be looking for cross pieces as you're solving it. You should be trying to find your first pair, and if you can do the cross BLD then you should be able to look for other pieces while doing it.


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## RubiksJake12 (Dec 23, 2013)

TDM said:


> I think many people around my speed (17ish) take 2 seconds to do the cross. If you're trying to get sub-20, you'd probably want 2.5 seconds max for your cross. Try planning your cross and then doing it without looking. You don't really want to be looking for cross pieces as you're solving it. You should be trying to find your first pair, and if you can do the cross BLD then you should be able to look for other pieces while doing it.



Gotcha, thank you very much. I'll be back when I'm sub 20


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## TheNextFeliks (Dec 23, 2013)

RubiksJake12 said:


> Thank you very much. Can you give me a suggestion on how best to practice my cross? And maybe give me an average goal for how long it should take me? I don't know how long it takes most people sub 20/15 to do the cross.



When I averaged sub-20 I could almost always sub-3 and sub-2 the easy cases. Try practicing cross blindfolded. Plan out the solution, then put on the blindfold and make sure you can solve it. If you can't plan out all 4, start out with 3. Then when you are comfortable with 3 pieces, do all four. Hope this helps.

Edit: ninja'd by TDM.


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## pipkiksass (Dec 24, 2013)

RubiksJake12 said:


> Gotcha, thank you very much. I'll be back when I'm sub 20



OKso it's time for me to swim upstream, play devil's advocate, and tell you not to practice cross.

Actually that's not QUITE true, I'm not going to suggest NOT practicing cross, I'm just going to suggest practicing a variety of things. 

So I was stuck at about 22/23 for _ages_. I think this is the time, for some cubers (you and me included) at which pure grinding repetitive practice ceases to be useful. Up to about 22/23 seconds, I never had to consciously practice anything. Sure, I 'drilled' a few PLLs, but more to learn them than to get faster at them. Everything I achieved up to 22/23 seconds was just through pure repetitive practice. 

Then I stopped getting faster.

So here's the thing - when you stop getting faster, it's because you're not actively improving anything. Repetitive practice is only good for perfecting skills you already have. When you start out cubing, there's _so_ much to improve on, you're spoilt for choice. You know you should be solving the cross efficiently, cutting down cube rotations, learning more LL algs, and improving the execution of them. You have a million and one things to improve, and you have them in mind (partly) when you're doing repetitive practice. So you get better at them. Really slowly and inefficiently. But the thing is that there's SO much progress to be had, you feel like you're racing ahead. One minute you're averaging 50+, a few days/weeks later it's 40, 30...

And then the roadblock, as discussed so many times in this post/thread and others. 

I currently average 19.xx. My PB is 12.xx. I have a couple of 14/15s in a good average of 50. When I get solves like this I think - how can I ever improve so much that that kind of time is _normal_ for me? Surely it's not possible. The truth of the matter is that there are still a million and one things to improve, but they're just a million and one small things, and so they're harder to notice. 

Sure, in pure time sense, your cross is proportionately slower than the rest of your solve. But it's about the same as mine. Yes, shame on me, etc., etc., my cross is _shocking_. The thing is, I've got to sub-20 without focussing on my cross. So what have I, personally, done to break sub-20?

1. Get better PLLs - I had some that required rotations, or were just plain rubbish. I looked on various websites, watched YouTube videos, raided the wiki, posted on 'request an alg'... and I'm almost happy with my PLLs. I only know one of the 'French' G perms atm, and intend to learn the remaining 3 because they're rotationless and badass, but I keep proctastinating, as with all things!

2. Learn some one-look OLLs - yeah yeah, I'll be rubbished by everyone for this suggestion: "you don't need full OLL to be sub-20". I know. I'm not saying that. I currently know about 40 OLLs. I've not made much of an effort to learn them, but when a particular OLL comes up a lot, I look for an alg I like. Occasionally I'll just find myself on the wiki and pick a new case or set of cases to learn. I often use mirrors and inverses rather than learn new algs, so you can learn 4 cases with one alg. 

3. Improve F2L efficiency - goes without saying. Look up some tricky cases and find better ways of solving them. This is responsible for most of my improvement.

I cannot look ahead.

The moral of the story is that yeah, your cross needs work, but so does everything. Eventually. _When_ you choose to work on the cross is the important thing. If working on your cross gets you sub-20 then you will still have to work on everything else. I guess I'm just promoting a holistic approach to cubing practice - practice a little of everything, all of the time. This has got me to sub-20 (very slowly, because I'm a sucker for the timer, and have no discipline to force myself to practice properly!), and the main advantage is that I got here without any (real) lookahead, and with a sucky cross. 

When I say this is an advantage, I mean that I can now look at working on my cross, or improving my (non-existent) lookahead... and I'm already sub-20. Who knows, if I spend a couple of days doing BLD crosses so my cross stops stinking, I might be sub-18/17 or whatever. Learn to actually look ahead, and the world's my oyster.

So yeah - practice everything, all of the time. There are a million and one tiny things to improve, and you'll have to improve all of them at some stage - it doesn't really matter what order they happen in.


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## RubiksJake12 (Dec 24, 2013)

pipkiksass said:


> Get better PLLs - I had some that required rotations, or were just plain rubbish. I looked on various websites, watched YouTube videos, raided the wiki, posted on 'request an alg'... and I'm almost happy with my PLLs. I only know one of the 'French' G perms atm, and intend to learn the remaining 3 because they're rotationless and badass, but I keep proctastinating, as with all things!


I've heard this several places and I'm eager to learn better PLLs. Can you point me in a good direction? mainly to save me time, haha. 


pipkiksass said:


> Learn some one-look OLLs


Believe it or not, I memorized all 57 algorithms months ago. I memorized those before I was sub 40 because I was good at memorizing. In fact, I've memorized every PLL and Every OLL and had always thought that was the easy part thanks to http://badmephisto.com/ . One thing I'd like to do is learn every single algorithm backwards. I can do a few backwards using my own wit, other algs are quite tough to intuitively do backwards, though. I'd love if you could provide me a nice suggestion for finding mirrored algs. 


pipkiksass said:


> Improve F2L efficiency


This is what I am focusing on now. I prefer to focus on one thing at a time, improve (maybe not perfect) and then move on to something else for the time being. 

Thank you very much for the time you put in to your post, I read every word. I guess I was looking at my improvement in a compartmentalized way. That's just how my brain works. I see every different thing as just that, an individual, different thing for me to work on. But you're right, everything I am doing can be improved upon and I should constantly be trying to do so. anyway, thanks for the advice! I, just today, got a new record of 14.40 seconds and I practiced nothing but the cross. I can now safely do most crosses in about 2-2.5 seconds.

Edit: Could you just mention any links, videos, people, etc. that you used to improve or that you might suggest for me to check out? I'd be interested in checking them all out. I've literally gotten this far by pretty much crazybadcuber and badmephisto alone.


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## pipkiksass (Dec 24, 2013)

RubiksJake12 said:


> I've heard this several places and I'm eager to learn better PLLs. Can you point me in a good direction? mainly to save me time, haha.



Certainly, although I can't remember where 100% of my algs have come from. I started with all Badmephisto PLLs, but never liked his J(a). I still use some of his algs, including J(b), T, 3xG's, H, and maybe a few others. 

The best place for new algs is YouTube - watch a few 'all PLL sub 1' vids, and check out the finger tricks, see what might work for you. For example, when I first started cubing, I HATED any algs with L turns, just couldn't do them quickly. Now I'm fine with L turns, but I can't really get on with B turns in algs. To each his own! You will _NEVER_ find a single person who has 21 PLL algs that all work for you. There will be elements of picking and choosing; however I'll get you started with some good resources:

Sebastien Felix's page 'Absolute Mind' - http://absolutemind.pagesperso-orange.fr/index-angl.html (source for such awesome PLLs as the 'French' G perms - versions of Badmephisto's algs, using U'+D in place of cube rotations )

Sarah Strong's cubing site - http://sarah.cubing.net (just a nice bunch of OLL and PLL algs)

http://www.YouTube.com - just search for 'fast X PLL' where X is replaced by the PLL you don't like your alg for. Obviously!

If you like, I can post all of my PLLs later tonight? But like I say, you'll never find one person who has 21 algs that work for you?



RubiksJake12 said:


> Believe it or not, I memorized all 57 algorithms months ago.


OK, that's a good start. Do you use full OLL/PLL in solves? I personally find that it's one thing knowing an alg, another completely using it in a solve. For example, I know all of the small lightning bolt OLLs, and sometimes 2-look them in solves just instinctively. This is because I haven't practiced them enough in slow solves, and under time pressure you often resort to 'old' algs.

I'll talk more about slow solves in a minute.



RubiksJake12 said:


> One thing I'd like to do is learn every single algorithm backwards. I can do a few backwards using my own wit, other algs are quite tough to intuitively do backwards, though. I'd love if you could provide me a nice suggestion for finding mirrored algs.


Experiment. I posted a few days ago about some OLL algs that I found while playing around with Sune + M/M' setups. Including Sune, Antisune, their mirrors, and the wide versions of both, there are 16 different OLL cases that can be solved just using these few algs. So once you find an alg you like, see if you also like the mirror/inverse. 

To mirror an alg for left/right hands, simply change the direction of all turns (prime becomes normal; normal becomes prime), and switch R and L. For example, a left handed version of the classic T perm: 

(R U R' U') R' F (R2 U' R' U') (R U R' F')

would be:

(L' U' L U) L F' (L2 U L U) (L' U' L F)

Which, of course, would solve a T perm from the opposite AUF (i.e. U2 away from the Badmephisto AUF).

I think!!

Not many people use mirrored algs, as there are few people who are ambidextrous cubers. Most people find it quicker to AUF, then execute algs that are more right-hand-oriented. As a result, I don't think there's any resources for mirrored algs, you just have to experiment. I know you already memorised all OLLs, but if you take out mirrors there's really only about 30 OLL cases, so if you like mirrored algs, it's worth 30 seconds to write the alg down and take the time to flip it. 



RubiksJake12 said:


> Thank you very much for the time you put in to your post, I read every word. I guess I was looking at my improvement in a compartmentalized way. That's just how my brain works. I see every different thing as just that, an individual, different thing for me to work on. But you're right, everything I am doing can be improved upon and I should constantly be trying to do so. anyway, thanks for the advice! I, just today, got a new record of 14.40 seconds and I practiced nothing but the cross. I can now safely do most crosses in about 2-2.5 seconds.


Congrats, and no worries. I just hate seeing the same generic advice regurgitated, and thought I'd chip in my 2 cents worth. The thing about generic advice is that it's generic for a reason, and that reason is that it's right! There are things that people say to those wanting to become sub 20, like "go slow and look ahead" and "practice BLD cross". And they're absolutely true and fantastic advice. But could result in you getting a 19 second average, then hitting another roadblock.

Imagine a racing driver who drives a practice lap of a circuit he's due to race on. His pit team tell him that there's a particular corner that he drives too slowly. Does he drive that one corner; reverse; drive the corner again; reverse... etc? No, he drives a full lap, but concentrates on that corner specifically. He's still practicing the whole thing, but focussing on the element that he knows he needs to improve. What about all the other corners on the circuit - is he just blindly driving round them? Nope, he's focussing on each element in isolation, and so still practicing each and improving each relative to each other.

Same thing goes for cubing: if you suck at cross, you could just solve a cross. Scramble. Solve a cross. Scramble... OR, you could concentrate on your cross while solving. Continuing into F2L, OLL, and PLL means that you get some practice at these too whilst still improving your cross. 

Whilst I completely agree with compartmentalised practice (it's the most efficient way to improve aspects of your solve) it's unlikely that you will perfect a single element of your solve in isolation. For example, you could spend weeks drilling PLLs, and get them all sub-1 before you're sub 40, if you really wanted. Personally, I find that gradual improvements in all aspects is more fulfilling, because all elements improve relative to each other. I know that each aspect of my solve still has massive room for improvement - I can drill PLLs/OLLs, work on my lookahead, or BLD crosses. Or all of the above. I know nothing has been perfected, so I'm still in the happy position of knowing I can solve a cube in 19 seconds, and still have improvements to make across the board!

Sure, my progress will be slower, but I'll never get bored of cubing because my practice is full of variety. 

Anyway, I promised I'd say a few words about slow practice, so here goes: DO SLOW PRACTICE. Turn off the timer, and do stuff slowly. For me, this has twice yielded 2 second jumps in averages. It's really the only way to implement new LL algs in your timed solves. You'll rarely have the confidence to throw in a new alg if you're on a 9 second solve after F2L, you'll revert to your old (slower) alg because instinct tells you to do so. If you don't do slow solves, the confidence to apply your new algs in timed solves will come VERY slowly, if at all. Slow solves not only help your F2L efficiency and lookahead, but are a great time to try and throw in the new LL algs you're trying to bring in to replace old ones.

And so we're back on holistic practice once again! 



RubiksJake12 said:


> Edit: Could you just mention any links, videos, people, etc. that you used to improve or that you might suggest for me to check out? I'd be interested in checking them all out. I've literally gotten this far by pretty much crazybadcuber and badmephisto alone.



Sure, some excellent youtubers - all of them are on this forum as well:

JSkyler91 (I think he's Joseph Skyler now)
FazRulz1 (A certain Feliks Zemdegs!)
TellerWest (awesome fingertricks, even if some of them aren't overly practical!)
Brad Cottom (some great OLL tutorials and other assorted cubing stuff)
xxoxia (especially http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i37S0iJFOz0)
Cyoubix (if you haven't already found him)
The Westonian

That's about 48 hours of videos for you to be getting on with!!!


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## kunparekh18 (Dec 24, 2013)

^Your posts are sooooooooooo awesome. I wish there was a like button


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## mark49152 (Dec 24, 2013)

Great post 

Algs can be mirrored f/b as well as l/r in which case they don't push work to the left hand. For example, my R perms are f/b mirrors and both in <RUD>.

About compartmentalized practice, I agree to a point, but think the best approach to practice is to mix it up and do a variety of things. For example, blind cross practice is great and when focused on that I wouldn't distract myself by finishing each solve. 

I compare it to running. I used to do a lot of running training, and just running over and over is great, but it was the time spent on different challenges like hill training, interval training, cross country etc that always gave me the best boosts to my road running pace.


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## pipkiksass (Dec 24, 2013)

mark49152 said:


> I compare it to running...



Yeah, my problem always used to be that my longer, slow runs became interval sessions because I'm impatient and undisciplined...

Can I see parallels in my cubing? Hmm...


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## TDM (Dec 24, 2013)

pipkiksass said:


> post


There aren't 27 PLLs, there are 21  Other than that, great post. Also, remember to look at other websites that don't just have algs that people use, such as the wiki or algdb.net. There are some good algs on there that no one uses. I found some really nice algs on both palces, and as far as I know I'm the only person to use my Nb, V and Y perms.


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## RubiksJake12 (Dec 24, 2013)

pipkiksass said:


> just search for 'fast X PLL' where X is replaced by the PLL you don't like your alg for


This blew my mind because I consider myself to be of, like, not retarded intelligence, and that suggestion is such a simple, easy suggestion that for whatever reason didn't even cross my mind. So thank you very much! Honestly haha I almost hit myself when I read that because it should have been like, my first damn approach. 



pipkiksass said:


> Do you use full OLL/PLL in solves?


Yes, I use all 57 algorithms (OLL) when they come up because honestly, they're MY old algorithms haha. Like you said sometimes in a fast solve you revert to old algorithms that might be slower, but you can do faster simply because you know it better. That's what I do except with all 57 OLLs. I should really learn some different PLLs and figure out more efficient ways to perform my OLLs because some slow me down tremendously. (for example the N PLLs)




pipkiksass said:


> Not many people use mirrored algs, as there are few people who are ambidextrous cubers


I wouldn't consider myself ambidextrous, but I do feel comfortable (after some drilling) with left handed algs. And, for example, sometimes I waste a U2 turn simply to do an alg with my right hand, which really only happens with the G algs (badmephistos)
The mirrored alg information you gave was very helpful. I was never sure if you switched the L to and R AND the ' to a natural or if you only switched one or the other, etc. The left handed algs I can do now are only ones I've done naturally without thinking.


anyway, thank you again for a spectacular post full of information. Again, what I think you thought was small, silly information, just happened to be stuff that hadn't even crossed my mind for whatever reason. You've helped me more than most people so far in improving my time (or at least pushing me in the right direction to improve my time) and you're pretty much the same speed as I am! Thanks again!


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## pipkiksass (Dec 24, 2013)

TDM said:


> There aren't 27 PLLs, there are 21


:fp

Funny, as my previous post says 11+10. Clearly I need to brush up on my maths skills. Will go back and edit the post, thanks for pointing out my glaring error!


TDM said:


> as far as I know I'm the only person to use my Nb, V and Y perms.


I use your J(a), or at least the one you suggested to me in the Request an Alg thread - as I said, that's a great place to go. What are your V and Y algs? I like my V perm, but my Y is the 2 OLL alg. :-/


RubiksJake12 said:


> You've helped me more than most people so far in improving my time (or at least pushing me in the right direction to improve my time) and you're pretty much the same speed as I am! Thanks again!


Dammit, don't you go getting faster than me now!! I jest - feel free to sub-10 ASAP!


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## TDM (Dec 24, 2013)

pipkiksass said:


> I use your J(a), or at least the one you suggested to me in the Request an Alg thread - as I said, that's a great place to go. What are your V and Y algs? I like my V perm, but my Y is the 2 OLL alg. :-/


I use three Ja/L perms, depending on the AUF: R' U L' U2 R U' R' U2 R L, [y] F U' R' F R2 U' R' U' R U R' F' R U R' F' or [y'] L' U' L F L' U' L U L F' L2' U L.
My V perm is R' U R' U' R D' R' D R' y R2 U' R2' d R2. I got the optimal one from cube explorer and put in a few rotations to make it better. The normal one is also optimal, but I just find it really slow and I hate it. The Y perm I use is R' U' l D2' l' U R d R2' U' R2 U' R2' (or R' U' R F2 R' U R for the first half). But most people use the one that's 2 OLLs, because it's fast. I just don't like its length in ETM; even if it is the same in QTM I find R2 U' R2 U' R2 very fast.
E: and I recently found [y2] R' U2 R' F' R2 U' R' F' U' F R U R' F U2' R for a Y perm from a different angle. I would learn it, but I'm still trying to learn Mats' F perm which I always get wrong.
E2: and if you don't like the rotation in the V perm, R U' R U R' D R D' R [U' D] R2 U R2 D' R2 is similar but rotationless.
E3: I was looking at those G perms you talked about somewhere and found this V perm using my one: R' U R' U' R D' R' D R' [U D'] R2 U' R2' D R2


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## RubiksJake12 (Jan 2, 2014)

Not that you care very much, but I wanted to say thank you to everyone who gave me their advice. I just got my first sub 20 Ao5 average and had I not screwed up a solve really awfully, I would have a sub 20 Ao12, too. I don't consider myself sub 20 yet, but I feel that I'm getting very close. Thanks again! I'll be checking back to this thread from now on until I hit 15 second average


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## carbon131 (Jan 4, 2014)

I don't go slow but I NEVER pause and I memorized everything for intuitive f2l an made my own way to do it but cant get sub 30 I know 12 of the pll algorithms and all oll is that it? the pll`s


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## googlebleh (Jan 4, 2014)

carbon131 said:


> I don't go slow but I NEVER pause and I memorized everything for intuitive f2l an made my own way to do it but cant get sub 30 I know 12 of the pll algorithms and all oll is that it? the pll`s



If I understand your question correctly, then no, that is not it. There are 21 PLL algorithms and 57 OLL algorithms.


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## Lchu613 (Jan 4, 2014)

RubiksJake12 said:


> Was that to me? Usually I would agree, but for some reason I've been practicing for a whole month now without breaking sub 20 averages. I have been studying all that I can find for the F2L. Do you have any website suggestions? Video Suggestions? personal suggestions? I'll admit for some of the harder F2L cases I haven't learned actual algorithms. I've made up my own.



Here's my cubing practice, more or less in the order I've gone through them since around 25 seconds:
Practice more fluid F2L
Try to get less moves in cross
Study the PLL cases to get faster PLL recog (that was a huge problem for me), learn better PLL algs
Study various F2L positions to find better algorithms, occasionally look up algorithms if I'm stuck, stare at the cube before cross and each F2L pair trying to find move-efficient solutions
(I'd like to mention that one thing I learned by toying with ZZ: For each F2L pair I should only do at most one cube rotation, and I can solve it. This had led to me analyzing some F2L pairs and coming up with way more efficient solutions than the ones I got used to when I was at 30 seconds making them up).


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## RubiksJake12 (Jan 5, 2014)

Lchu613 said:


> Here's my cubing practice, more or less in the order I've gone through them since around 25 seconds:
> Practice more fluid F2L
> Try to get less moves in cross
> Study the PLL cases to get faster PLL recog (that was a huge problem for me), learn better PLL algs
> ...



Thank you for this! I definitely have been working on a more fluid f2l and better cross these past weeks. I haven't studied any PLLs so I might try that, though just yesterday I found better algorithms for all of the G perms which will help me once i get used to them. Believe it or not I feel fairly comfortable that my methods for putting in F2L pieces is fairly good, the only problem is my look-ahead and finding the pairs quickly. I need to work on this. 
I think it's time I buckled down and seriously gone through every pll alg I use. I'm going to try to find perfect algs for every one of them and then re-condition myself to them. Hopefully this will help me. Then, as I'm working on these PLLs I can practice a better F2L and my recognition.


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## BeastofBeasts (Jan 15, 2014)

*A bit of help?*

Hello! I am *very* new to cubing. With my current 3x3x3, I average three minutes. I use the CFOP method, along with an old Rubik's brand cube. I have all algorithms memorized, but I cannot finger trick yet (it is because of the cube). I have a Zhanchi coming soon. Can someone give me some tips to at least get my average sub-minute?


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## SolveThatCube (Jan 15, 2014)

BeastofBeasts said:


> Hello! I am *very* new to cubing. With my current 3x3x3, I average three minutes. I use the CFOP method, along with an old Rubik's brand cube. I have all algorithms memorized, but I cannot finger trick yet (it is because of the cube). I have a Zhanchi coming soon. Can someone give me some tips to at least get my average sub-minute?



Hi, if you start using a ZhanChi you should naturally get faster if you practice, practice is all it really is but you definitely will need to learn finger tricks.

Do you know F2L all OLLs and PLLs?


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## Sidharth PR (Jan 30, 2014)

*How to get sub-20 in 3x3 help?*

I have been stuck in the 22-23 avg stage for almost 6 months.Now i am getting sub 20 solves but not avg.i think the problem is in F2L as i take almost 15 secs for it.How do i increase my speed?


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## BillyRain (Jan 30, 2014)

How many solves are you doing per day?


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## ILMZS20 (Jan 30, 2014)

what kind of answer do people except from this thread? like some magical tip that will make them rech their goal in 2 days or something? go practice like everyone else lol.


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## jeff081692 (Jan 30, 2014)

Practice, try to identify weaknesses instead of just solving and actually look at what faster people are doing differently and try to adopt things from them.
Read this thread http://www.speedsolving.com/forum/s...-to-Get-Faster-using-the-Fridrich-CFOP-Method
Wait for the how to get fast at 3x3 vid to come out.
The answer for how to be sub x can be found all over the forum. What you need is to change something about your solving to address your weaknesses. A 15 second F2L can still get you sub 20 if you develop a good LL. Drilling LL algs until you can get them around 2-3 seconds easily is one way. Looking at example solves for new tricks in the F2L is another thing anybody at any level can do to improve F2L.


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## TDM (Jan 30, 2014)

Seriously, slow down and look ahead. If that doesn't work, speed up a little bit (but not too much), and try to go as fast as possible with no pauses in F2L. Learn full PLL and some of the easy OLLs (about half of them are very easy, but still learn them slowly). Look for algorithms both on the wiki, other websites, and in reconstructions for your slower F2L cases. Drill all algs, and try to get them all under a certain speed. Remember to look on several websites to find good algs for you. Search the forums and the wiki. There's easily enough information on both on how to improve. You shouldn't need to ask for help here unless you can't find anything; since I joined the forums my progress has slowed significantly. Definitely use the forums, but if it's speed you're interested in then don't post on the forums that much. Use the forums as a resource.


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## caters (Feb 1, 2014)

is sub 20 sub 20 minutes or sub 20 seconds because if it is sub 20 minutes I am in there but if it is sub 20 seconds I am not. I can solve a 3x3 with LBL in just a few minutes(longer for the last layer but still like 5-10 minutes) which I think is good for someone just starting to get color neutral and hasn't done intermediate(like Fredrik) or advanced methods and has tried other begginer methods but can't do them(even tried the one with only the sexy move to solve the whole cube. You have to do that lots of times to solve it(thus the sexy move is considered to be one of those high order algorithms))


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## kcl (Feb 1, 2014)

caters said:


> is sub 20 sub 20 minutes or sub 20 seconds because if it is sub 20 minutes I am in there but if it is sub 20 seconds I am not. I can solve a 3x3 with LBL in just a few minutes(longer for the last layer but still like 5-10 minutes) which I think is good for someone just starting to get color neutral and hasn't done intermediate(like Fredrik) or advanced methods and has tried other begginer methods but can't do them(even tried the one with only the sexy move to solve the whole cube. You have to do that lots of times to solve it(thus the sexy move is considered to be one of those high order algorithms))



I don't know who you are, or if you're trolling. But for god's sake learn proper English. Sub 20 usually refers to sub 20 seconds. 5-10 minutes is not considered fast, even with the beginners method and CN. Sorry bro. Just learn CFOP already.


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## caters (Feb 1, 2014)

It might be too hard for me and how is time going to improve with that. I mean some people practice CFOP for a longtime and don't get past the minimum I am at in LBL(especially if they are still learning OLL and PLL algorithms. Some people get sub 20 with LBL. You see what I mean?


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## Phillip1847 (Feb 1, 2014)

I'm almost certain the people sub -20 with LBL don't actually use LBL. Not only that, it takes a ridiculous amount of work to get there with LBL.
CFOP takes a heck of a lot less brain power than other methods, but it doesn't matter because the entire solve eventually becomes somewhat unconcious. Learning CFOP ain't hard. 

If you want to use your logic, you can get sub 20 with triangular francisco as well, and just because people can be slow at CFOP(doubt to the lengths that you describe), doesn't mean that everybody should switch to triangular francisco and the belt method.

Learning CFOP is easy peasy with 4LLL. If you can't do it, that means you aren't putting enough time in.



Spoiler



sorry for feeding the troll


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## GuRoux (Feb 1, 2014)

caters said:


> It might be too hard for me and how is time going to improve with that. I mean some people practice CFOP for a longtime and don't get past the minimum I am at in LBL(especially if they are still learning OLL and PLL algorithms. Some people get sub 20 with LBL. You see what I mean?



i don't think anyone gets sub 20 LBL without being significantly better at another method.


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## rj (Feb 1, 2014)

caters said:


> It might be too hard for me and how is time going to improve with that. I mean some people practice CFOP for a longtime and don't get past the minimum I am at in LBL(especially if they are still learning OLL and PLL algorithms. Some people get sub 20 with LBL. You see what I mean?



CFOP is fairly easy. And MUCH faster.


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## kcl (Feb 1, 2014)

caters said:


> It might be too hard for me and how is time going to improve with that. I mean some people practice CFOP for a longtime and don't get past the minimum I am at in LBL(especially if they are still learning OLL and PLL algorithms. Some people get sub 20 with LBL. You see what I mean?



No. I average sub 12 with CFOP, and I can't always sub 20 consistently with beginners.


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## GuRoux (Feb 1, 2014)

kclejeune said:


> No. I average sub 12 with CFOP, and I can't always sub 20 consistently with beginners.



can't even do sub 35 consistently


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## kcl (Feb 2, 2014)

GuRoux said:


> can't even do sub 35 consistently



Depends what you consider beginners. I can't sub 20 with Dan Brown most of the time, but I can if I do cross on bottom inserting corners as if they were f2l pairs+4LLL.


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## GuRoux (Feb 2, 2014)

kclejeune said:


> Depends what you consider beginners. I can't sub 20 with Dan Brown most of the time, but I can if I do cross on bottom inserting corners as if they were f2l pairs+4LLL.



i meant dan brown, either way, i can't sub 20 cfop either


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## DAoliHVAR (Feb 2, 2014)

i average around 25 second with cfop
and my avg with layer by layer(not begginers) is ~31
sooo 
i suck at f2l


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## Sidharth PR (Feb 2, 2014)

About 100 on normal days.But some days its quite less,but those are rare.


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## Renslay (Feb 2, 2014)

My average with LBL is about 25-50 sec.


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## aboeglin (Feb 2, 2014)

Renslay said:


> My average with LBL is about 25-50 sec.



Rather seems to be an amplitude to me, an average is the sum of your solves divided by the amount of solves.


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## Renslay (Feb 2, 2014)

aboeglin said:


> Rather seems to be an amplitude to me, an average is the sum of your solves divided by the amount of solves.



Sorry, it was a typo. I meant 25-30 sec.


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## GLgamer10 (Feb 2, 2014)

I average around 30 to 35 with fridrich. I have been trying to slow down with my F2L because I know that is my weak point. My cross isn't much better. Together they add up to an average of 22 sec to solve cross and F2L. My LL depends on if I have and easy OLL case, meaning I don't have to get the cross. I know full PLL and know 12 OLL case out of the 57. I watched BadMephisto's tutorial on the advance cross and it isn't sticking. It takes me about 6-7 seconds to solve the cross when it should be taking 3-4 seconds. I guess I just need to practice just cross for awhile, but I thought it would come with practice. I could use some tips. I wish I could post a video to show you guys, but I cant :-/.


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## aboeglin (Feb 2, 2014)

GLgamer10 said:


> I average around 30 to 35 with fridrich. I have been trying to slow down with my F2L because I know that is my weak point. My cross isn't much better. Together they add up to an average of 22 sec to solve cross and F2L. My LL depends on if I have and easy OLL case, meaning I don't have to get the cross. I know full PLL and know 12 OLL case out of the 57. I watched BadMephisto's tutorial on the advance cross and it isn't sticking. It takes me about 6-7 seconds to solve the cross when it should be taking 3-4 seconds. I guess I just need to practice just cross for awhile, but I thought it would come with practice. I could use some tips. I wish I could post a video to show you guys, but I cant :-/.



I'm pretty much in your case except my cross is alright for my speed. My real bottleneck is my F2L pair solving. For the cross I've always taken as long as I needed to plan the whole cross, still, I need to look at my cross pieces but I know already how they'll move. Try to place your cross pieces on the same face as other cross pieces as much as possible when you see it'll orient them correctly. Like doing U or D moves for instance before doing any R F L B moves, but still it depends on the case. Also, the best trick I got from badmephisto's video was R'uR'u', I let you do it to see what it does on a solved cube. It's 4 moves to orient one edge, but if you're in this situation u'll need the 4 moves anyway, and these are really fast to perform, so sometimes I know my last edge piece will end up in it's correct spot, but with the wrong orientation, so I sometimes finish my cross with this trigger.

About my F2L I don't really seem to get it much better lately. About a good week ago I realized I was doing a whole lot of cube rotations during pair solving. So I decided to rethink totally my way of doing it. Was really bad for a while, my times jumped back up to 40, but I learned new triggers ( sledgehammer especially ). I then started to do my solves without rotation at all, which helped somehow for look ahead. And now I'm at the step where I practice single F2L cases. I'm just finally getting the case 38 ( from the wiki ) in my muscle memory ( back slots aren't sure moves yet ). So I take a case, set it up, try to find an optimal solution, which is to me, one where I don't need to rotate, which is easy to perform, and somehow makes sense ( I'll probably get into the D, r, l and co shortcuts later on ). And then I repeat the case over and over like I would practice an alg, and I do this for the 4 slots. Then I treat the mirrored case, which usually requires a sledgehammer trigger at some point or a cube rotation if it makes sense. The hard thing I try to figure out now is when is it better to actually rotate, or when is it better to orient the edge. Sometimes rotations are so much faster. But if I need to take an edge out of a slot, and I know doing it with R, U, L moves will make it a bad edge, I just use the sledgehammer to get it out so I'm sure I can then solve it without rotation with R, U, L. I guess the next step now is to go on working on single cases, doing lots of slow solves to try to use the algs I work out on single cases as much as possible in my speed solves, and try to work on look ahead as much as possible. But look ahead means you can solve the pairs in any slots without looking, which I'm not able to do yet as I've been through a lot of changes lately. So for now I try at least to spot one piece for the next pair while inserting. But I'm sure I still loose 3-4sec of pausing while doing my F2L, worst case being after my cross usually. I try to work on following a corner piece and plan it when I plan my cross but I mostly fail.


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## carbon131 (Feb 2, 2014)

my tip is learn full oll and pll but learn full pll first and learn full fridrich for f2l use turbo tracking and then use a metronome and go to speed that is comfortable for you for beginners start at 60 bpm and do it without pausing then move it up by 10 each time you feel comfortable. then learn diferent ways to do the f2l then practice till you reach sub 20 



sorry if its not the best


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## GLgamer10 (Feb 2, 2014)

aboeglin said:


> I'm pretty much in your case except my cross is alright for my speed. My real bottleneck is my F2L pair solving. For the cross I've always taken as long as I needed to plan the whole cross, still, I need to look at my cross pieces but I know already how they'll move. Try to place your cross pieces on the same face as other cross pieces as much as possible when you see it'll orient them correctly. Like doing U or D moves for instance before doing any R F L B moves, but still it depends on the case. Also, the best trick I got from badmephisto's video was R'uR'u', I let you do it to see what it does on a solved cube. It's 4 moves to orient one edge, but if you're in this situation u'll need the 4 moves anyway, and these are really fast to perform, so sometimes I know my last edge piece will end up in it's correct spot, but with the wrong orientation, so I sometimes finish my cross with this trigger.
> 
> About my F2L I don't really seem to get it much better lately. About a good week ago I realized I was doing a whole lot of cube rotations during pair solving. So I decided to rethink totally my way of doing it. Was really bad for a while, my times jumped back up to 40, but I learned new triggers ( sledgehammer especially ). I then started to do my solves without rotation at all, which helped somehow for look ahead. And now I'm at the step where I practice single F2L cases. I'm just finally getting the case 38 ( from the wiki ) in my muscle memory ( back slots aren't sure moves yet ). So I take a case, set it up, try to find an optimal solution, which is to me, one where I don't need to rotate, which is easy to perform, and somehow makes sense ( I'll probably get into the D, r, l and co shortcuts later on ). And then I repeat the case over and over like I would practice an alg, and I do this for the 4 slots. Then I treat the mirrored case, which usually requires a sledgehammer trigger at some point or a cube rotation if it makes sense. The hard thing I try to figure out now is when is it better to actually rotate, or when is it better to orient the edge. Sometimes rotations are so much faster. But if I need to take an edge out of a slot, and I know doing it with R, U, L moves will make it a bad edge, I just use the sledgehammer to get it out so I'm sure I can then solve it without rotation with R, U, L. I guess the next step now is to go on working on single cases, doing lots of slow solves to try to use the algs I work out on single cases as much as possible in my speed solves, and try to work on look ahead as much as possible. But look ahead means you can solve the pairs in any slots without looking, which I'm not able to do yet as I've been through a lot of changes lately. So for now I try at least to spot one piece for the next pair while inserting. But I'm sure I still loose 3-4sec of pausing while doing my F2L, worst case being after my cross usually. I try to work on following a corner piece and plan it when I plan my cross but I mostly fail.



I can't solve the cross without looking what so ever. Then I have a huge pause on trying to find my first which just ends up killing my times. As for the R' u R' u' trick, I do it as u R u' R. The one you have is much easier to finger trick and I will start using that. As for doing F2L without looking, I can do most cases, but they really aren't move affective. I'm not really sure where I can find F2L cases with which I can practice them at. I basically do all intuitive F2L. I did an average of 5 just now and counted my rotations and I averaged just under 3 rotations per solve just during F2L. I use the sledgehammer when I can and for the back slots I use rotationless insertion if I think it's faster than a cube rotation. For example r' U' R U M'. I just noticed that when I do my PLL that I align to where it needs to go, then I cube rotate so I have it facing me at the correct angle and then I execute it. I never really seem to solve it at a different position, execute, then AUF. I think that could be slowing me down as well.


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## aboeglin (Feb 2, 2014)

GLgamer10 said:


> I can't solve the cross without looking what so ever. Then I have a huge pause on trying to find my first which just ends up killing my times. As for the R' u R' u' trick, I do it as u R u' R. The one you have is much easier to finger trick and I will start using that. As for doing F2L without looking, I can do most cases, but they really aren't move affective. I'm not really sure where I can find F2L cases with which I can practice them at. I basically do all intuitive F2L. I did an average of 5 just now and counted my rotations and I averaged just under 3 rotations per solve just during F2L. I use the sledgehammer when I can and for the back slots I use rotationless insertion if I think it's faster than a cube rotation. For example r' U' R U M'. I just noticed that when I do my PLL that I align to where it needs to go, then I cube rotate so I have it facing me at the correct angle and then I execute it. I never really seem to solve it at a different position, execute, then AUF. I think that could be slowing me down as well.


Definitely for PLL, except it's a y or y' I always AUF instead, but I used to rotate, y2 would definitely be a killer. I also do it intuitive, and come with my own algs for F2L. But I just take a case and work it out on its own. Trying to find the way of solving it that works the best for me. But I also go on the wiki or here : http://www.opticubes.com/cubing/f2l/ to see if there are algs that might suit me better. But most of the time I come with one that is on a list somewhere.


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## GLgamer10 (Feb 2, 2014)

aboeglin said:


> Definitely for PLL, except it's a y or y' I always AUF instead, but I used to rotate, y2 would definitely be a killer. I also do it intuitive, and come with my own algs for F2L. But I just take a case and work it out on its own. Trying to find the way of solving it that works the best for me. But I also go on the wiki or here : http://www.opticubes.com/cubing/f2l/ to see if there are algs that might suit me better. But most of the time I come with one that is on a list somewhere.



That website is perfect! Thank you so much for that. I hope you get your times down and thanks for the great tips. I really have been in a rut for a while with my times.


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## aboeglin (Feb 2, 2014)

I hope I could help a little, but I'm no better than you, I just think I figured a few things out lately and I have a little idea on how I'll practice for the coming weeks. I wish you to get your times down too !


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## Ultimate Cuber (Feb 8, 2014)

Go a little slower and practice looking ahead. Do that for a few days and then go back to regular speed. You should have a much better look ahead by then. I did this and after about a week I went from sub 25 to sub 20.


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## SarahG (Feb 9, 2014)

Ok so I'm a little slower than you but I am speeding up after a bit of a plateau. So first I made the decision to practice smarter. I thought my F2l was petty bad too and decided that's what I would work on. So I looked at everyone's advise, you know, slow down, look ahead, think more. Great. So I know what to do . And have no idea how to do it.
So these were my ideas. 
Task; slow down. Problem; I'm so busy trying to force myself to slow down after always trying to "race" (quite often with other people) that it becomes all I can think about! There goes the solve. Solution ; 3x3x3 stage on big cubes (I use 5x5x5) I simply cannot turn as fast. 
Task; look ahead. Problem : just..... What? To where ? I'm kinda bust enough as it is! Solution ; see slow down. Again big cube is excellent. Much more for me to see quite simply and I think something about the big centres kinda separating everything out helps too. And because it takes me longer to insert an F2L I have plenty of space to look ahead. 
Task; think more. Problem; I actually find this counterproductive . The harder I try to think the more I think about thinking about it and urgh! Brain fog. Solution; I explore more. I physically try seemly stupid moves and combinations of moves to see what happens, what I like and what I can store for use later. Also doing untimed solves with little goals like not using regular patterns for execution that I would normally use and finding something different or inefficient or out right wierd just to get a different view or understanding or a particular move set. 
Anyway I hope my odd musings are remotely helpful.


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## BossiniCuber (Feb 9, 2014)

Sidharth PR said:


> I have been stuck in the 22-23 avg stage for almost 6 months.Now i am getting sub 20 solves but not avg.i think the problem is in F2L as i take almost 15 secs for it.How do i increase my speed?



Ok, I was at your stage for about 5 weeks, I suggest you watch cyoubyx's tutorial for look ahead ._. Or, just learn f2l algorithms, right now I my avg is 20 secs


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## UB (Feb 15, 2014)

Hello, I do the cross in about 5 -7 sec and do F2L in 15 - 20 sec. How can I improve on these two?


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## GLgamer10 (Feb 15, 2014)

UB said:


> Hello, I do the cross in about 5 -7 sec and do F2L in 15 - 20 sec. How can I improve on these two?



Do you have a pause between your transition from you cross into your first F2L pair? Practice look ahead a lot. You can do this multiple ways by doing slow solves, a metronome can work out, for the F2L cases that you are unsure about maybe do algorithmic F2L for that case. For cross I would recommend BadMephisto's advanced cross tutorial. He talks about how the cross can always be done in less than 9 moves, a flipping edge trick for the bad edge cases, and some other stuff. I can't really give you a lot about how to improve because I'm right there with you. I just more focusing on F2L stage at the moment. Hope this helped a little.


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## carbon131 (Feb 15, 2014)

About 4 weeks ago I wa at 40 secs now im around 22 or 20 I do about 10 solves a day. Also watch cyoubx look ahead vid helped a lot!!!


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## UB (Feb 16, 2014)

carbon131 said:


> About 4 weeks ago I wa at 40 secs now im around 22 or 20 I do about 10 solves a day. Also watch cyoubx look ahead vid helped a lot!!!





GLgamer10 said:


> Do you have a pause between your transition from you cross into your first F2L pair? Practice look ahead a lot. You can do this multiple ways by doing slow solves, a metronome can work out, for the F2L cases that you are unsure about maybe do algorithmic F2L for that case. For cross I would recommend BadMephisto's advanced cross tutorial. He talks about how the cross can always be done in less than 9 moves, a flipping edge trick for the bad edge cases, and some other stuff. I can't really give you a lot about how to improve because I'm right there with you. I just more focusing on F2L stage at the moment. Hope this helped a little.



Thank You Guys. I think I will do a little better now and yeah I dont look ahead and my cross to f2l transition is crappy  so now I have to focus on that


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## RubiksJake12 (Feb 22, 2014)

UB said:


> Thank You Guys. I think I will do a little better now and yeah I dont look ahead and my cross to f2l transition is crappy  so now I have to focus on that



I had the same problem. Improving my cross time (even though I only went from 5 to like 2-3 seconds, lowered my average from about 22 seconds to 20 or sometimes sub 20. 

The way I improved was literally just solved the cross over and over. I would solve it, scramble, and repeat 100+ times. I would force myself to do it with my eyes closed too once I had recognized each edge and where it needed to go. Doing it with you eyes _closed_ will help your improve your transition from Cross to F2L because if you don't have to look at the pieces while you're solving the cross, then you can spend that time to look at the F2L pairs and where they will be when the cross is finished.


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## UB (Feb 23, 2014)

I am practising it doing blind but dont get it in the end... Maybe some more practice..


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## carbon131 (Mar 12, 2014)

how many solve do you do a day for me i practace in the week.eg. on my school bus public transit on the train so i have it every where even when im on the cpu even now! pn the weekends is when i time myself to see if my practacing payed off and its th samy every week u should try it. hope i helped.


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## Arti (Mar 12, 2014)

carbon131 said:


> how many solve do you do a day for me i practace in the week.eg. on my school bus public transit on the train so i have it every where even when im on the cpu even now! pn the weekends is when i time myself to see if my practacing payed off and its th samy every week u should try it. hope i helped.



Obsession is a good way to get better! Cube EVERYWHERE!


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## CriticalCubing (Mar 14, 2014)

While practicing, go slow trying to look ahead. Speed comes naturally and like Arti said "Obsession is good" but till some extent. Dont hamper your studies like I did  and it is a very good thing that you are timing after a week, that way you will know how much you improved  Practice HARD! Go PRO! or rather GO SUB 10 


carbon131 said:


> how many solve do you do a day for me i practace in the week.eg. on my school bus public transit on the train so i have it every where even when im on the cpu even now! pn the weekends is when i time myself to see if my practacing payed off and its th samy every week u should try it. hope i helped.


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## ColeTen99 (Mar 26, 2014)

Got my first sub 20 average of 5  this thread has helped get my times much faster in a short amount of time


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## coolguy0007 (Apr 6, 2014)

i know full pll and 2 look oll and i have got sub 10 thrice once was reaaaaally easy f2l the other two were pll skips i usually average abt 20 and i get sub 20 all the time so u dont need to know all these algs to be sub 20 but u should learn pll


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## Delta Phi (Jun 10, 2014)

waffle=ijm said:


> cool story. Now let's see what Roux, ZB, and ZZ solvers have to say about that.



As in the 10 ACTUAL ZB solvers.


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## PJKCuber (Jun 15, 2014)

How can I get faster at lookahead?


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## BrianJ (Jun 15, 2014)

PJKCuber said:


> How can I get faster at lookahead?


You have probably already heard this, but practice. Seriously, practice is the only thing to help you improve greatly among most puzzles.


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## mark49152 (Jun 15, 2014)

PJKCuber said:


> How can I get faster at lookahead?


Search the forums. In fact, just reading it should be enough, if you don't know how to search. This topic gets discussed pretty much every week.


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## Rocky0701 (Jun 15, 2014)

PJKCuber said:


> How can I get faster at lookahead?


Try it while doing slow solves, then work up to being able to do it at higher TPS. After that, just incorporate it into your solves and practice. The rest should come naturally.


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## GLgamer10 (Jun 18, 2014)

I have problems doing the cross without looking at it. If I plan it out I still need to look at it. I tried doing it with my eyes closed, but it is not doing it for me. I am still concentrating on the cross pieces and where they need to go and where they are on the cube when I am turning to solve the cross. It would be helpful for some tips on this. I would also like to show some practice solves, but I am not sure how to set up my phone to record at a good angle so you cubers can see.


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## Future Cuber (Jun 18, 2014)

GLgamer10 said:


> I have problems doing the cross without looking at it. If I plan it out I still need to look at it. I tried doing it with my eyes closed, but it is not doing it for me. I am still concentrating on the cross pieces and where they need to go and where they are on the cube when I am turning to solve the cross. It would be helpful for some tips on this. I would also like to show some practice solves, but I am not sure how to set up my phone to record at a good angle so you cubers can see.



Guess im not alone


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## PJKCuber (Jun 19, 2014)

Hey Guys, I average just sub 30 currently and am trying hard to be sub 20.
I have broken down my problems here. Can anyone give me tips
Cross- Highly inefficient. I want to learn advanced cross but having problem memorizing the color scheme because I am CN.
F2L- I get Cross+F2L done in 19 seconds on average. How can I improve lookahead?
OLL- 2LOLL
PLL-2LPLL, currently learning full PLL
What can I do to improve?


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## mark49152 (Jun 20, 2014)

GLgamer10 said:


> I have problems doing the cross without looking at it. If I plan it out I still need to look at it. I tried doing it with my eyes closed, but it is not doing it for me. I am still concentrating on the cross pieces and where they need to go and where they are on the cube when I am turning to solve the cross.


Try to track an F2L corner piece while you solve cross with eyes closed. Concentrating on that forces you to not concentrate on the cross (and makes it 10x harder IMO ).


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## Rocky0701 (Jun 20, 2014)

GLgamer10 said:


> I have problems doing the cross without looking at it. If I plan it out I still need to look at it. I tried doing it with my eyes closed, but it is not doing it for me. I am still concentrating on the cross pieces and where they need to go and where they are on the cube when I am turning to solve the cross. It would be helpful for some tips on this. I would also like to show some practice solves, but I am not sure how to set up my phone to record at a good angle so you cubers can see.


For practicing BLD crosses, if you can't do all four edges, just try doing two, then three until you are able to do all four quickly. It just takes some practice.


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## mafergut (Jul 30, 2014)

Hi guys,
My averages Ao5 to Ao50/100 are currently between 23-26 approx. I'm trying to get to sub-20 Ao12/50 and not just "once in a while sub-20".

I have read almost all this thread and it is full of good advice (look ahead, etc.) but I want advice in a particular issue.

I learned full OLL (almost, around 52 cases) and full PLL (21, including Gs) but I fear either or both of the following is happening:
- I am too slow executing OLL / PLL algs
- I have some very bad PLLs

So I timed an Ao15 or so for what I feel are my 3 worse & best PLLs. Here are the results and, hence I seek advice:

3 worst PLLs
Nb: Avg.: 4.00, Best: 3.24, Alg.2: R' U R U' R' F' U' F R U R' F R' F' R U' R
Na: Avg.: 4.50, Best: 3.62, Alg.2: L U' L' U L F U F' L' U' L F' L F L' U L' (mirror of Nb)
V : Avg.: 4.30, Best: 3.59, Alg.5(v3): (y) r' F R F' r U r' F R' F' r U2 R U2 R'

3 best PLLs
H : Avg.: 2.90, Best: 2.24, Alg: M2' U M2' U2 M2' U M2'
Aa: Avg.: 2.40, Best: 1.95, Alg: l' U R' D2 R U' R' D2 R2 (x')
Ub: Avg.: 1.90, Best: 1.73, Alg: R' U R' U' R' U' R' U R U R2

Thanks!!!


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## TDM (Jul 30, 2014)

First thing: slow down and look ahead; it always helps, even if your F2L is already good.


mafergut said:


> - I am too slow executing OLL / PLL algs
> - I have some very bad PLLs


To solve the first problem, drill your algs. Find which ones are slowest and repeat them again and again, trying to get them faster. Look at algdb.net to see if you can find better algs for the cases you don't like.
To solve the second, once again, look at algdb.net. It's a great website where you can see how popular algs are, which makes it easy to see which is best. You'll definitely want to find a better V perm from there; you can look past the first few algs on there too. Even if only one or two people use it, it could be good!


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## mafergut (Jul 31, 2014)

TDM said:


> First thing: slow down and look ahead; it always helps, even if your F2L is already good.
> 
> To solve the first problem, drill your algs. Find which ones are slowest and repeat them again and again, trying to get them faster. Look at algdb.net to see if you can find better algs for the cases you don't like.
> To solve the second, once again, look at algdb.net. It's a great website where you can see how popular algs are, which makes it easy to see which is best. You'll definitely want to find a better V perm from there; you can look past the first few algs on there too. Even if only one or two people use it, it could be good!



So, do you think my V-perm is bad? I will certainly look for a new alg for that. I have also looked in the speedsolving wiki PLL database and found a new alg for Na that I saw in a video (the guy was doing 1.11!!!). I just learned it yesterday and I'm already in the same times than with my old left-handed Na. The new alg is: (z) (U R' D R2 U' R D')2. I will perhaps change if I see that I can get faster with it in a couple of days.

And regarding whether my F2L is good or not I split-timed some solves and here are the results. The times are a bit bad for me but the fact to think of hitting space bar between stages and taking one hand off the cube was hindering me, I guess. I also removed any solve with OLL/PLL skips to see the real best OLL/PLL solve:

-------Cross----F2L----OLL----PLL---Total---
best: 1.64 11.96 2.66 3.20 22.77	
worst: 4.76 17.53 6.23 8.22 30.02	
avg: 2.95 14.40 4.14 5.15 26.64	
std: 25.9% 11.2%	19.7% 26.9% 7.2%	

So any area that needs special improvement or am I just slow at everything?


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## KFcuber (Jul 31, 2014)

Hi everyone,

First of all this is gonna be my first post in this forum (and my english is not very good sorry  )

I am averaging 17-21 currently and I am trying hard to become sub17 every ao5.
I broke my ao100 with 19.42 yesterday(first sub20 ao100 very happy) ,broke my single (11.48 pll skip lucky solve ) and ao5 with 16.77 great days and solves for me 
My problems are cross, lots of rotations and plls
I still don't know the color scheme and sometimes I couldn't see the 4th piece of the cross
At most of the solves I do 3 rotation and this problem slow me down. When I try to do less rotation (2 or 1) things got worse (20-24 seconds)
And lastly I just know 13 PLL I also think some of my algs don't fit to me 

I am waiting your suggestions

Thanks for everyting...


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## hanteng (Aug 14, 2014)

*Improvement To Sub 20*

Hi guys,need help on 3x3 here!I use CFOP method (4 look)and my current PB is 19.8,other than that i average around 30
.However i have seen people solve faster than me with 4 look ,like around 15s.How can i achieve that?Thx!


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## Username (Aug 14, 2014)

practice

no seriously
practice your f2l


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## hanteng (Aug 14, 2014)

Any gd vids?


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## Rnewms (Aug 14, 2014)

Watch some example solve videos and take note of the cross and F2L stages. There are many tricks to preserving pairs and setting up other pairs while solving a different pair. 

While you solve one part, be sure to look around for what comes next so you don't have to pause during the solve. Practice solving with slow turns so you don't stop turning throughout the solve and gradually speed up with practice.


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## mark49152 (Aug 15, 2014)

Maybe learn full PLL?


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## ChickenWrap (Aug 15, 2014)

mark49152 said:


> Maybe learn full PLL?



Although CFOP isnt my main method, I average 18 with 4 look LL...just practice F2L! Doing solve after solve is how I improved....


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## mark49152 (Aug 15, 2014)

ChickenWrap said:


> Although CFOP isnt my main method, I average 18 with 4 look LL...just practice F2L! Doing solve after solve is how I improved....


Yeah and others are twice as fast as you with one hand. So don't bother using your second hand, you can get sub-15 without it.


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## ChickenWrap (Aug 15, 2014)

mark49152 said:


> Yeah and others are twice as fast as you with one hand. So don't bother using your second hand, you can get sub-15 without it.



Haha. All I am saying is that full PLL is not really a good/necessary thing to suggest.

Not to mention my Ao10,000 is still faster than your a05  With my non-main method, no less.


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## mark49152 (Aug 15, 2014)

ChickenWrap said:


> Haha. All I am saying is that full PLL is not really a good/necessary thing to suggest.


Your advice sucks. Is there a good reason not to learn it? Obviously it will be more difficult and take longer to get sub-15 without PLL (and OLL for that matter).


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## Bh13 (Aug 16, 2014)

mark49152 said:


> Your advice sucks. Is there a good reason not to learn it? Obviously it will be more difficult and take longer to get sub-15 without PLL (and OLL for that matter).



I was sub 20 before I learned full PLL and I didn't learn full OLL until I was sub 15. Really all that's needed to be sub 20 is fairly decent lookahead and knowledge of the cube.


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## mark49152 (Aug 16, 2014)

Bh13 said:


> I was sub 20 before I learned full PLL and I didn't learn full OLL until I was sub 15. Really all that's needed to be sub 20 is fairly decent lookahead and knowledge of the cube.


...none of which invalidates what I said. Just because something's not essential doesn't mean it's not worthwhile.


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## ChickenWrap (Aug 16, 2014)

mark49152 said:


> Your advice sucks. Is there a good reason not to learn it? Obviously it will be more difficult and take longer to get sub-15 without PLL (and OLL for that matter).



I am saying that anyone with any amount of knowledge about CFOP would know that learning full PLL would not bring him from a 30 second average to sub-20. Sure, it will help 2 seconds or so, but that still leaves 8.

However, if he just practices and gets his F2L fast, he can easily drop below a sub-20 average. I don't even know full PLL and I have sub-15 averages that prove you don't need it to be "fast".


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## mafergut (Oct 15, 2014)

I have been a bit stuck for some months. In July I had a PB Ao5 of 21.38 and I cannot beat that (I have beaten it just 3 times since then and my current PB is 20.84, from a month ago). Also my non-lucky PB single has not improved much since July-August, from 17.40 to 16.82 this week. Also my Ao50 & 100 have improved only around 1 or 1.5 sec in this period to low 24s and high 24s-low 25s respectively. In a typical Ao100 I currently get 50 to 60 sub-25 solves and between 4 and 6 sub-20 solves.

I practice a lot, like 100 solves 5 days a week, some days even 150-200. I try to plan the full cross, concentrate in F2L lookahead, ... all the good advice you give in this forum but still progress is very slow lately if at all (there are weeks when it looks like I'm going back).

Questions: Is progress so slow at this level and I just have to be patient? Is my age already a problem (I'm 44)? I say this because I spoil solves many times because of sloppy / non-accurate turning and also I cannot even do the A-perms in less than 1.9sec at best (worst PLLs, like Z, R, V,... in like 4-5sec). I have been cubing for a year and I see others in the forum that started more or less at the same time and are already getting sub-18 Ao12, sub-12 singles and that stuff. Any specific advice for me (apart from record a video and put it in solve critique thread, which I plan on doing)? Like, e.g.: solve less and drill OLLs/PLLs more, or things like that.

Thanks!!!


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## MM99 (Oct 15, 2014)

It sounds like you're doing everything right to me... The biggest thing for me to get sub 20 was just solving alot.... I'm positive if you keep doing what you're doing right now you'll get to where you wanna be. Some other things that might help you out however is looking at how you solve your f2l cases check on the wiki to make sure the trickier cases are move optimal. As for the algs It probably wouldn't hurt going over finger tricks on your more difficult ones or maybe changing an alg all together if it's really bad. And finally look ahead is something that comes over a very gradual period of time and will slowly improve with every solve you do... So basically you're on the right track just maintain your consistent practising habits and you'll be sub 20 suner than you think


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## Artic (Oct 15, 2014)

mafergut said:


> I have been a bit stuck for some months. In July I had a PB Ao5 of 21.38 and I cannot beat that (I have beaten it just 3 times since then and my current PB is 20.84, from a month ago). Also my non-lucky PB single has not improved much since July-August, from 17.40 to 16.82 this week. Also my Ao50 & 100 have improved only around 1 or 1.5 sec in this period to low 24s and high 24s-low 25s respectively. In a typical Ao100 I currently get 50 to 60 sub-25 solves and between 4 and 6 sub-20 solves.
> 
> I practice a lot, like 100 solves 5 days a week, some days even 150-200. I try to plan the full cross, concentrate in F2L lookahead, ... all the good advice you give in this forum but still progress is very slow lately if at all (there are weeks when it looks like I'm going back).
> 
> ...



Do you know full OLL and PLL? Probably the most important thing that got me sub 20 was to never keep learning new things! I was stuck at 21 for a LONG time. And I mean a long time. Even though I was doing hundreds of solves a day, in hindsight I realize I should have continued learning new tricks, new OLL's and PLL's for solving from different angles, and in general, just picking up new ways of solving f2l pairs. Once I started doing that, sub 20 happened almost without my knowing it. 

So don't make the mistake I made of getting comfortable with what you already know. Pick up new algs or tricks constantly. Not a week goes by that I don't force myself to learn at least 6 new tricks, or 6 improvements over tricks I already know. Continuous learning really does help!


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## mark49152 (Oct 15, 2014)

I'm also in my 40s and at about the same average as you, and I do believe age makes a difference. I know that from other activities, like piano, where it now takes many hours of practice to get to a level of proficiency with a piece that would have taken just 3-4 plays in my teens. I therefore have modest expectations of my speedcubing potential. However, it's only for fun, so who cares.

My advice would be to mix up your practice and try different approaches. Don't just do 100s of timed solves if it's not working for you. Things that have helped me improve include blind practice of cross and F2L pairs, algorithm drills like PLL attacks to work TPS, and slow untimed solves focusing on lookahead and early case recognition. I generally spend more time doing dedicated substep practice. I'll do a specific kind of substep training for a few days, then switch to doing timed full solves for a few days to combine in my substep improvements. Works for me, and I find it more interesting to vary my practice, but everyone's different.


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## mafergut (Oct 15, 2014)

MM99 said:


> It sounds like you're doing everything right to me... The biggest thing for me to get sub 20 was just solving alot.... [...] So basically you're on the right track just maintain your consistent practising habits and you'll be sub 20 suner than you think



Thanks a lot for your encouraging words. I will definitely continue practicing.



Artic said:


> Do you know full OLL and PLL? Probably the most important thing that got me sub 20 was to never keep learning new things! [...]



I know full PLL and (almost) full OLL. There are just 2 OLL cases I do with a combination of two other OLLs instead of a dedicated OLL, I will have to learn those one day or another but it is gonna improve but just 3 or 4 moves in just 2 out of 57 cases so, not a lot of margin for improvement there).

I also try incorporating mirror OLLs when, e.g. I get a T OLL case that is rotated, instead of doing a U2 but I'm still slower with my left that U2+OLL with my right. I DO have some bad PLLs that I should change but I guess it's not they are bad algs but that I'm slow. I tried to change the Zs and I more or less got the same times with the new alg (around 4.5 sec avg) than with the old alg, even though the guy in the video could do the new alg in like 1.1 or so. That's why I thought it is just me being too old or not too skilled (or both).



mark49152 said:


> I'm also in my 40s and at about the same average as you, and I do believe age makes a difference. [...] However, it's only for fun, so who cares.
> My advice would be to mix up your practice and try different approaches. Don't just do 100s of timed solves if it's not working for you. Things that have helped me improve include blind practice of cross and F2L pairs, algorithm drills like PLL attacks to work TPS, and slow untimed solves focusing on lookahead and early case recognition. [...]



Yeah, it is mainly for fun. That's why I do it also and I will keep doing it. But seeing improvement is also motivating. Yeah, I also do some of that (slow untimed solves to focus on lookahead and how to efficiently insert pairs, etc.). What I'm not doing and I think I should do is work on OLL/PLL attacks.

Thank you so much to all that replied for your good advice and stay tuned for my video on solve critique... if I ever get to do it (video editing is a nightmare for me).


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## thomasandrew (Oct 23, 2014)

Do you have any good algs for the ll


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## mafergut (Oct 23, 2014)

mafergut said:


> I have been a bit stuck for some months. In July I had a PB Ao5 of 21.38 and I cannot beat that (I have beaten it just 3 times since then and my current PB is 20.84, from a month ago). Also my non-lucky PB single has not improved much since July-August, [...] Any specific advice for me (apart from record a video and put it in solve critique thread, which I plan on doing)? Like, e.g.: solve less and drill OLLs/PLLs more, or things like that.
> 
> Thanks!!!



I am still stuck so I decided to record an Ao5 and posted it on The Solve Critique thread here. Nobody has replied yet so if any of you would be so kind. I would be glad to hear your comments. Meanwhile I'm starting with the blind F2L practice and also trying to do PLL attacks and trying some PLLs in different orientations (like lefty T-perm) and researching new ways to do some F2L cases, etc. As one of you said, always trying to learn something new.

Thanks in advance!


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## Maxh (Oct 23, 2014)

Make a break. It helped me a lot. Then I was faster like 1-2 sec.


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## mafergut (Oct 23, 2014)

Maxh said:


> Make a break. It helped me a lot. Then I was faster like 1-2 sec.



Do you mean stop cubing for a while? Like how long? One week? I wouldn't have thought that stopping practice instead of practising more would help me improve. Would changing puzzle help, like, let's say, start learning Ortega for 2x2? I'd miss cubing, seriously.


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## Maxh (Oct 23, 2014)

Yes a week or so. Do Pyraminx or skewb. Your hands shouldn't Do all the time the Same


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## mafergut (Oct 23, 2014)

Maxh said:


> Yes a week or so. Do Pyraminx or skewb. Your hands shouldn't Do all the time the Same



Thanks. I will give it a try. What do I have to lose? But I'll have to buy a skewb, hehehe. I have a SS pyraminx but I find it really boring.


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## Artic (Oct 24, 2014)

mafergut said:


> Do you mean stop cubing for a while? Like how long? One week? I wouldn't have thought that stopping practice instead of practising more would help me improve. Would changing puzzle help, like, let's say, start learning Ortega for 2x2? I'd miss cubing, seriously.



I responded to your vid in the solve critique thread.


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## PJKCuber (Oct 24, 2014)

mafergut said:


> Do you mean stop cubing for a while? Like how long? One week? I wouldn't have thought that stopping practice instead of practising more would help me improve. Would changing puzzle help, like, let's say, start learning Ortega for 2x2? I'd miss cubing, seriously.



Yes totally. When I was averaging 22. I started to hate speedcubing because I was stuck. I got a 4x4 and practiced until I got sub 2 . I took a week of from 3x3. When I came back, I was sub 20.


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## TDM (Oct 24, 2014)

PJKCuber said:


> Yes totally. When I was averaging 22. I started to hate speedcubing because I was stuck. I got a 4x4 and practiced until I got sub 2 . I took a week of from 3x3. When I came back, I was sub 20.


I was stuck at 21-22 as well. I eventually stopped cubing for a bit, and when I came back to do my first comp (and got a decent cube), and that also made me sub-20.


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## mafergut (Oct 24, 2014)

Artic said:


> I responded to your vid in the solve critique thread.



I saw that. Very good insights and some things I hadn't thought of myself. Thank you very much. I will reply more thoroughly on that thread.


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## mafergut (Oct 24, 2014)

TDM said:


> I was stuck at 21-22 as well. I eventually stopped cubing for a bit, and when I came back to do my first comp (and got a decent cube), and that also made me sub-20.



Thanks for the advice. If no other thing works (and for now nothing is really working) I will definitely try this. I have been wanting to learn Ortega since I got a LingPo so that could be a way to stay out of the 3x3 for a while. Also I got an AoSu that I have not used yet so I will try to learn the parity algs, etc. I'm afraid, though, that the part of getting a decent cube I cannot count on because I already own several top-notch cubes (ChiLong, HuanYing, AoLong, Weilong, Aurora...)

I will let you know how it all goes! Thanks again to all that gave suggestions


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## mark49152 (Oct 24, 2014)

mafergut said:


> Thanks for the advice. If no other thing works (and for now nothing is really working) I will definitely try this. I have been wanting to learn Ortega since I got a LingPo so that could be a way to stay out of the 3x3 for a while. Also I got an AoSu that I have not used yet so I will try to learn the parity algs, etc.


I'd recommend spending time on 4x4 rather than 2x2. Reason is that after a week on 4x4 you'll come back to 3x3 and it will just look easy - so few pieces, and they are big and chunky, easy to turn, and easy to find.


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## mafergut (Oct 28, 2014)

Hi,

First sign than the advice you all guys gave me could be paying off a bit already. I have been doing some 4x4 (which I'm not good at, with times of 3-4 minutes) for some days and then came back to 3x3 but, instead of focusing on timed solves I was focusing on blind F2L solves and then in F2L lookahead, slow solves trying to not pause (but without a metronome).

I was starting to get almost the same times while slow solving than when speed solving (21-27 seconds). Then, just a while ago, while still slow solving I got a very fluent one. When I stopped the timer, it showed 18.72 seconds!!!! And I wasn't even trying too hard when doing OLL+PLL. Just two 45º (y/y') turns during the whole solve (until PLL, I have to learn the other orientation of A-perms and U-perms, I know, btw, any recommended algs for those?)

14. 18.72 R2 D2 B' U2 L2 R2 B R2 F' D2 B' L' F2 L D2 L2 U' L' B2 U F2

(x2) (y) // inspection

u L' u B2 U F2 // Cross (6/53) a bit ackward, isn't it?
(y) U2 L' U' L // F2L #1 (10/53)
(y') U' L' U' L R' U' R // F2L #2 (17/53)
U L' U' L // F2L #3 (21/53)
L U' L' U L U L'	// F2L #4 (28/53) a lot of left hand work in F2L
U f R U R' U' f' F R U R' U' F' // OLL (41/53)
U (y2) R2 U' R' U' R U R U R U' R	// PLL (53/53) yeah, it should have been U' PLL U2, instead of U y2 PLL, or better, learn opposite orientation PLL!!!

Thanks to all that helped!!!! I'll keep pushing


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## TDM (Oct 28, 2014)

mafergut said:


> I have to learn the other orientation of A-perms and U-perms, I know, btw, any recommended algs for those?)


http://algdb.net/Set/PLL is a great website for finding algs.

Aa:
l' U R' D2 R U' R' D2 R2
[y2] r' U L' D2' L U' L' D2' L2
[y'] R U R' F' r U R' U' r' F R2 U' R'

Ab:
[y] [l' R'] D2 R U R' D2 R U' R'
r U' L D2 L' U L D2 L2'
[y2] l U' R D2 R' U R D2 R2'

Ua:
R U' R U R U R U' R' U' R2
[y2] R2 U' R' U' R U R U R U' R
[y2] M2 U M' U2 M U M2
M2 U M U2 M' U M2

Ub:
R2 U R U R' U' R' U' R' U R'
[y2] R' U R' U' R' U' R' U R U R2
M2 U' M U2 M' U' M2
[y2] M2 U' M' U2 M U' M2


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## maps600 (Oct 28, 2014)

OLL: R U2' R2' U' R2 U' R2' U2 R

I think it's faster


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## maps600 (Oct 28, 2014)

mafergut said:


> Hi,
> 
> First sign than the advice you all guys gave me could be paying off a bit already. I have been doing some 4x4 (which I'm not good at, with times of 3-4 minutes) for some days and then came back to 3x3 but, instead of focusing on timed solves I was focusing on blind F2L solves and then in F2L lookahead, slow solves trying to not pause (but without a metronome).
> 
> ...



f2l solution looks okay.. how long does it take you to solve cross + f2l alone?


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## mafergut (Oct 28, 2014)

TDM said:


> http://algdb.net/Set/PLL is a great website for finding algs.
> 
> Aa:
> l' U R' D2 R U' R' D2 R2
> ...



Many thanks. I usually go to the wiki on this site, which also has great algs but I was asking for advice. Yeah, I know that the best advice is to test by oneself and decide. But, for example, I cannot make my mind between the U-perms that are just the reverse of the ones I use now or the M2 ... ones. I'm afraid learning 4 perms so similar to each other can lead to confusion, so I was thinking if maintaining the current ones for y2 orientation and using completely different ones for opposite orientation would be better (namely, the M2 ones).

For the As I was practising the lefty versions, they are not y2 appart, though, only y but anyway you can always find an orientation that is only a U/U' away right?


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## mafergut (Oct 28, 2014)

maps600 said:


> f2l solution looks okay.. how long does it take you to solve cross + f2l alone?



For this solve and others in the 18-20 range I'd say:
Cross: 1,5 - 2 seconds
F2L: 9 - 12 seconds
Total between 10.5 - 14.

My PB lucky (PLL skip with no AUF) is 12.49 so that must have been:
- cross+F2L: 10 secs,
- OLL: 2 secs,
- oh my! I got a PLL skip + stop the timer: 0.5 sec 
give or take a tenth.

After that, LL greatly varies depending on OLL-PLL found. I have 1.8-2sec PLLs (As, Us) and 4.xx sec PLLs as well (V, Ns...). As you can see, very slow at oll/pll.


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## mafergut (Oct 28, 2014)

maps600 said:


> OLL: R U2' R2' U' R2 U' R2' U2 R
> 
> I think it's faster



Thanks for the suggestion. It looks like probably faster but it took so much effort to learn the 55 OLLs (yep, I'm missing two of them since months and months ago) that I am a bit lazy to learn better ones. I should have analysed that before learning all of them  but I was ignorant of many things back then ;-)


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## TDM (Oct 28, 2014)

mafergut said:


> Many thanks. I usually go to the wiki on this site, which also has great algs but I was asking for advice. Yeah, I know that the best advice is to test by oneself and decide. But, for example, I cannot make my mind between the U-perms that are just the reverse of the ones I use now or the M2 ... ones. I'm afraid learning 4 perms so similar to each other can lead to confusion, so I was thinking if maintaining the current ones for y2 orientation and using completely different ones for opposite orientation would be better (namely, the M2 ones).
> 
> For the As I was practising the lefty versions, they are not y2 appart, though, only y but anyway you can always find an orientation that is only a U/U' away right?


I use the MU ones, and I don't get confused - the middle bit is always M U2 M' if the bar is on the back and M' U2 M if it's on the front, and that doesn't change for the other U perm. You usually won't get confused between algs if you used them enough, and you will use PLLs a lot, so I wouldn't worry about learning algs that are too similar.

Yeah, you can just do the lefty version. As long as it does it from a different angle you won't ever need to do a y2/U2 before the alg.


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## Lazy Einstein (Oct 28, 2014)

mafergut said:


> Stuff you said
> 
> 14. 18.72 R2 D2 B' U2 L2 R2 B R2 F' D2 B' L' F2 L D2 L2 U' L' B2 U F2
> 
> ...


 


TDM said:


> http://algdb.net/ is best alg site ... & U and the same time as I pick up the cube.


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## Lazy Einstein (Oct 28, 2014)

TDM said:


> I use the MU ones, and I don't get confused - the middle bit is always M U2 M' if the bar is on the back and M' U2 M if it's on the front, and that doesn't change for the other U perm. You usually won't get confused between algs if you used them enough, and you will use PLLs a lot, so I wouldn't worry about learning algs that are too similar.
> 
> Yeah, you can just do the lefty version. As long as it does it from a different angle you won't ever need to do a y2/U2 before the alg.



Do you find the MU CW U difficult? The U turns suck for me because I can't M with my left hand well so I only right hand M. 
With the CW U I have to japanese OH finger trick flick the U turns but it feels really bad


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## mafergut (Oct 28, 2014)

Lazy Einstein said:


> Do you find the MU CW U difficult? The U turns suck for me because I can't M with my left hand well so I only right hand M.
> With the CW U I have to japanese OH finger trick flick the U turns but it feels really bad



Funny that you say that, 'cos I was right now trying those U-perms and for me it's the other way around. I M2 (e.g. H-perm) with my left ring & middle so, the problem for me is to do the CCW U, which has U' and the solution I tried to use was, can you guess...? japanese OH U flick but with my right index to do the U'  but, yeah, it's "a bit" awkward.

Also, how do you do the M? I'm trying with my (left) ring finger, pushing with the back of the finger on the FD sticker but I feel clumsy doing that. And, of course, r' R is too slow (but I still use it in one OLL out of lazyness to improve that, can you guess which OLL?).

Anyway, I will take the opportunity to try different PLLs now that I'm learning them. Perhaps if I get faster with these I will drop the one for my current orientation (2nd alg in TDM lists, 'cos my current orientation is y2 orientation on that list).


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## TDM (Oct 28, 2014)

Lazy Einstein said:


> Do you find the MU CW U difficult? The U turns suck for me because I can't M with my left hand well so I only right hand M.
> With the CW U I have to japanese OH finger trick flick the U turns but it feels really bad


No, I like both U perms. This is how I fingertrick them. No Japanese OH fingertricks, just weird M2s


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## SpicyOranges (Oct 28, 2014)

Lazy Einstein said:


> Do you find the MU CW U difficult? The U turns suck for me because I can't M with my left hand well so I only right hand M.
> With the CW U I have to japanese OH finger trick flick the U turns but it feels really bad



I turn with my left, but I'm also working on getting good with my right on the M turns. It's kinda tricky to have to learn how to turn after doing the same thing for so long. So uh you should try to turn with both, it will help in the long run.


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## Lazy Einstein (Oct 28, 2014)

mafergut said:


> Also, how do you do the M? I'm trying with my (left) ring finger, pushing with the back of the finger on the FD sticker but I feel clumsy doing that. And, of course, r' R is too slow (but I still use it in one OLL out of lazyness to improve that, can you guess which OLL?).



Well they can be good with practice. Jay McNeil uses r' R in is PLL video(usually for r R' however) and I have seen him M flick the FD with his ring finger. However, he is a Boss and uses his ring finger for R' and r' in OH all the time.

I actually modify my M for regrips in algs. Depending on my hand position I push the BD to BU with my middle finger and when my hand is near the top of the cube I pull the UB to UF with my index finger. 

I am too inaccurate with FD flicks that and it is so awkward.


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## mafergut (Oct 28, 2014)

Lazy Einstein said:


> Well they can be good with practice. Jay McNeil uses r' R in is PLL video(usually for r R' however) and I have seen him M flick the FD with his ring finger. However, he is a Boss and uses his ring finger for R' and r' in OH all the time.
> 
> I actually modify my M for regrips in algs. Depending on my hand position I push the BD to BU with my middle finger and when my hand is near the top of the cube I pull the UB to UF with my index finger.
> 
> I am too inaccurate with FD flicks that and it is so awkward.



Gotta learn to do the M2 with my right hand as well, then I can do the U' with left index. These U-perms have a very nice flow (except for the M, I'll have to work on that too). I think I'm going to include them in my "repertoire".

Thanks a lot!!!


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## NooberCuber (Oct 29, 2014)

mafergut said:


> Funny that you say that, 'cos I was right now trying those U-perms and for me it's the other way around. I M2 (e.g. H-perm) with my left ring & middle so, the problem for me is to do the CCW U, which has U' and the solution I tried to use was, can you guess...? japanese OH U flick but with my right index to do the U'  but, yeah, it's "a bit" awkward.
> 
> Also, how do you do the M? I'm trying with my (left) ring finger, pushing with the back of the finger on the FD sticker but I feel clumsy doing that. And, of course, r' R is too slow (but I still use it in one OLL out of lazyness to improve that, can you guess which OLL?).
> 
> Anyway, I will take the opportunity to try different PLLs now that I'm learning them. Perhaps if I get faster with these I will drop the one for my current orientation (2nd alg in TDM lists, 'cos my current orientation is y2 orientation on that list).



I use the M2 U M' U perms
for example M2 U M U2 M' U M2
I do M2 with left hand and U2 with right
I do the M2 with with my left ring and middle fingers
but I keep my middle finger on the DF sticker or invetween the DF and the bottom center which is where it winds up for me
Do the U with my left index
WHILE moving my middle finger back to DB
PUSH my middle figner from DB to BU 
and the rest of the alg is easy
hard to explain but hope that helped

also for OLL 28
with the unsolved edges om UB and UL
M' U M U2 M' U M	
Do the M' with my ring finger
keep it there while I do rhe U then slide back and push with the ring finger

also how do you do the footbote things on pots where people post pbs and things? i don't know lol


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## mafergut (Oct 29, 2014)

NooberCuber said:


> I use the M2 U M' U perms
> for example M2 U M U2 M' U M2
> I do M2 with left hand and U2 with right
> I do the M2 with with my left ring and middle fingers
> ...



Hi. I have tried as you say for Ms, pushing DB up to BU and it works for me better than the other option. I even started to get 2sec times for the whole alg, which is close to my best times with my old algs. But that is for the alg with Us, where I can do M2 with left ring and middle, as you say. The problem is with the opposite alg, where you have U'. To free my left finger I need to do M2 with the right hand and that I'm terrible at, so the whole alg is very clumsy and it takes like 4-5 secs  I'll take a lot of practice to gain dexterity for M2 with my right hand

I have also tried the OLL, which you guessed right, and yeah, I think I can manage to change habit and use this other M/M' style of turning.


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## NooberCuber (Oct 29, 2014)

mafergut said:


> Hi. I have tried as you say for Ms, pushing DB up to BU and it works for me better than the other option. I even started to get 2sec times for the whole alg, which is close to my best times with my old algs. But that is for the alg with Us, where I can do M2 with left ring and middle, as you say. The problem is with the opposite alg, where you have U'. To free my left finger I need to do M2 with the right hand and that I'm terrible at, so the whole alg is very clumsy and it takes like 4-5 secs  I'll take a lot of practice to gain dexterity for M2 with my right hand
> I have also tried the OLL, which you guessed right, and yeah, I think I can manage to change habit and use this other M/M' style of turning.



You talking about the clockwise U perm with the solved edge in the back?
M2 U' M U2 M' U' M2
I do the M2 with my left hand and as usual
While i'm doing the M2 I put the tip of my right index on the FRU sticker
then push FRU to RUB
Push the M
Then do the U2 but I leave my index where i is after the U2 since it's already near the FRU sticker
keep it there while I do the M'
then push back with my right index to RUB
and finish the alg


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## mafergut (Oct 30, 2014)

NooberCuber said:


> also how do you do the footbote things on pots where people post pbs and things? i don't know lol



I forgot to answer to that. Go to Settings in the upper-right menu of the forum and then in the left menu in "My Settings" you have "Edit Signature" and there you can edit it, put your PBs or whatever you like ;-)


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## mafergut (Oct 30, 2014)

NooberCuber said:


> You talking about the clockwise U perm with the solved edge in the back?
> M2 U' M U2 M' U' M2
> I do the M2 with my left hand and as usual
> While i'm doing the M2 I put the tip of my right index on the FRU sticker
> ...



Interesting approach. I am already trying that, it could be a good compromise for me. The one with Us I already can do it in almost the same 2sec that I did my old ones. Thanks a lot for the detailed explanation.


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## NooberCuber (Oct 30, 2014)

mafergut said:


> Interesting approach. I am already trying that, it could be a good compromise for me. The one with Us I already can do it in almost the same 2sec that I did my old ones. Thanks a lot for the detailed explanation.



Anytime 
and thanks for telling me about the signatures


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## Myachii (Oct 30, 2014)

If find doing higher order cubes helps a lot. For example, if I do a 7x7 solve then a 5x5 solve, the cube feels smaller and so seems easier to complete. If you solve the highest order cube you have, then go back to 3x3, it makes it seem really easy.
Another tip is, if you haven't already, learn full PLL. Definite help for smashing 20 seconds


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## Berd (Nov 1, 2014)

Myachii said:


> If find doing higher order cubes helps a lot. For example, if I do a 7x7 solve then a 5x5 solve, the cube feels smaller and so seems easier to complete. If you solve the highest order cube you have, then go back to 3x3, it makes it seem really easy.
> Another tip is, if you haven't already, learn full PLL. Definite help for smashing 20 seconds


I totally agree with that. U just look at my 3x3 and I'm like: "this is easy." Also, learning another method helps a lot too


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## guysensei1 (Nov 1, 2014)

Lazy Einstein said:


> However, he is a Boss and uses his ring finger for R' and r' in OH all the time.



I do this too


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## vijfirextreme (Nov 24, 2014)

I've been stuck at sub 25 for 3 MONTHS now and due to this I'm finally improving. I get one or two sub 20 solves every twenty solves now and I'm getting much better. Thanks a lot


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## mafergut (Nov 25, 2014)

vijfirextreme said:


> I've been stuck at sub 25 for 3 MONTHS now and due to this I'm finally improving. I get one or two sub 20 solves every twenty solves now and I'm getting much better. Thanks a lot ��



Welcome to the club! I've been stuck there at sub-25, sub-24 for like 4-5 months already and improving very, very slowly. I also get around 8-10 sub-20 solves every Ao100 and even though I seem to be improving my consistency I don't seem to become faster. My PB singles (lucky and non-lucky) are from more than 1 month ago but my averages are from this past week so I'm happy with that. Only concern is that, at this pace I will die before I become sub-20 (Ao100).


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## ppugliesi (Jan 25, 2015)

So I'm not the only one stuck at sub-25. Glad to know other people have had this problem and were able to overcome it. (Actually, I'm improving now).


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## MrMan (Jan 25, 2015)

So I'm sub 30 now. I just realized that exectuing 2look OLL + PLL takes mes aproximately 10 second, is it way too much ?


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## mafergut (Jan 25, 2015)

ppugliesi said:


> So I'm not the only one stuck at sub-25. Glad to know other people have had this problem and were able to overcome it. (Actually, I'm improving now).



Well, I'm glad you find it reassuring. I'm sure if you keep practicing you will get better. I'm still progressing very slowly compared with other cubers, though, but that might just be myself being a bit old or outright bad at this . In the couple of months that have passed since I wrote that I have come down to sub-23 Ao100. I wish I could keep improving by just 1 second every two months and my target of becoming sub-20 this year would become a reality by summer. I think it will not be as simple as that but I'll keep trying.

Good luck with your cubing as well.


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## mafergut (Jan 25, 2015)

MrMan said:


> So I'm sub 30 now. I just realized that exectuing 2look OLL + PLL takes mes aproximately 10 second, is it way too much ?



I think for sub-30, a 10sec LL with 2look OLL is not that bad but people tends to find easier to turn fast during LL than other things like having good lookahead during F2L so, they might tell you that it is a bit too much. In my case I am terrible at being really fast executing OLL and PLL algs so I think it is more or less okay. If you tell us your splits (cross, f2l, oll, pll) perhaps we can help you more.


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## MrMan (Jan 25, 2015)

mafergut said:


> If you tell us your splits (cross, f2l, oll, pll) perhaps we can help you more.



I have no idea, I realized by looking at the timer at 14s when inserting my last f2l pair and that was a 24 second solve.
I guess I'll have to do an ao5/12 on camera to determin my splits.


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## mafergut (Jan 27, 2015)

MrMan said:


> I have no idea, I realized by looking at the timer at 14s when inserting my last f2l pair and that was a 24 second solve.
> I guess I'll have to do an ao5/12 on camera to determin my splits.



I was thinking more on the lines of just sub-30 (27-29 seconds). If you are more really like sub-25, then perhaps a 10 second LL starts sounding a bit too much. Maybe starting to learn progressively all the other OLL cases (at least the faster ones) could start to pay off now (even though there are people that have become sub-15 before learning 1look OLL.

Also, apart from making a video you can use the "multi-phase" feature in some timers like csTimer. You will have to hit the space bar between cross, f2l, oll and pll which will increase the times a bit but you can have fairly good splits. Of course if you can also record a video that would be much better.


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## MrMan (Jan 27, 2015)

My sister has a really good camera and a tripod, so I'll do a video as soon as I see her. 
And for my times I really sub 30 now and averaging 26/27. But it evolves each weeks at this stage.


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## mafergut (Jan 27, 2015)

MrMan said:


> My sister has a really good camera and a tripod, so I'll do a video as soon as I see her.
> And for my times I really sub 30 now and averaging 26/27. But it evolves each weeks at this stage.



I think I'm gonna time myself some splits and see what happens, I'm now averaging 22/23 so it can be a good reference. But I will just do a cross+F2L / LL split so that it can be compared with what you said (14 + 10).


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## explodification (Jan 30, 2015)

Can F2L be improved simply by practice or is there something that has to be learned first, _then_ practiced?


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## Smiles (Jan 30, 2015)

explodification said:


> Can F2L be improved simply by practice or is there something that has to be learned first, _then_ practiced?



after the basics of knowing what to do in each situation, you can learn some extra ways to pair up or insert different CE pairs, but nothing special is necessary. practice gets you the necessary finger smoothness and look ahead ability and confidence to decrease your times. learning new things for f2l just comes with random info u find as well as example solves from good cubers.


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## mafergut (Feb 2, 2015)

MrMan said:


> I have no idea, I realized by looking at the timer at 14s when inserting my last f2l pair and that was a 24 second solve.
> I guess I'll have to do an ao5/12 on camera to determin my splits.



Okay. It took a while but I'm back with the promised splits. And the results are a bit surprising for me.

I have done several solves splitting the Cross+F2L and LL. I have taken like 20 results that were around 21-23 seconds and the average is (approx.):
- 14.5 Cross+F2L
- 7.5 Last Layer
So, if your typical 24 second solve is 14+10 I'd say either your LL is slow compared to your F2L or the effect is caused by 2-look OLL. But I think 1-look OLL does not give you a gain of 2,5 seconds so maybe it is something in between or, perhaps, my F2L is bad compared to my LL.

My best LL was 5.5 (not taking into account OLL / PLL skips, of course) and my best cross+F2L was 12.

For a 18 sec solve, just to give some comparison, my splits are more like 12+6. But it is difficult for me to get 18sec solves, the more so when doing split timing  so I just got one in the whole session.

Hope this helps and hope somebody that knows better than me can help us both!!!!


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## Megaminx 078 (May 21, 2015)

So getting a cross and F2L in 12 seconds is key?
I have been getting some 17 seconds sprinkled in my 20 second average but it doesn't happen as much as I would like. 
Also, what do you do when you just can't find an F2L pair when you've finished a pair?
Thanks


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## TDM (May 21, 2015)

Megaminx 078 said:


> So getting a cross and F2L in 12 seconds is key?
> I have been getting some 17 seconds sprinkled in my 20 second average but it doesn't happen as much as I would like.
> Also, what do you do when you just can't find an F2L pair when you've finished a pair?
> Thanks


Not key, but <13 seconds for F2L is ideal. If your LL is very fast then your F2L doesn't need to be as fast, but for most people, F2L is about 2/3 of their solve.

If I can't find a pair, then I know I'm turning too fast, and will slow down my turning. Usually I start turning quickly again when I see the next pair, and then slow down at the start of the next pair (until I see the pair after etc).


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## JustACubingGuy1 (May 27, 2015)

Thanks to you I'm close to sub 20.I'm sub 30 now


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## darckhitet (May 27, 2015)

I do cross and F2L in 7-8 secs avg and still can't get sub 16


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## Blabber333 (May 27, 2015)

Megaminx 078 said:


> So getting a cross and F2L in 12 seconds is key?
> I have been getting some 17 seconds sprinkled in my 20 second average but it doesn't happen as much as I would like.
> Also, what do you do when you just can't find an F2L pair when you've finished a pair?
> Thanks



You see, that shouldn't happen if ur looking ahead


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## Pranav Sindura (Jul 13, 2015)

Hey Guys! Its been a month since I was posted. I just wanna say that Thanks to this post Im finally sub20, Moreover im sub 17 now. My PB is 12.30 which is fullstep.

I think that there is one thing most people miss out, that TPS is also important. I just increased my TPS and then practiced to adjust my look ahead to my increased TPS. The result was sub20 solves most of the time, like 8/10 solves. Next is just practice. It took me more than a month to get sub 20.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ceqQEhh24M - My 14.06s Solve


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## Phantom777 (Jul 14, 2015)

I need this a lot because I'm sub-30 (27.74 ao5, PB: 8.61)


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## Phantom777 (Jul 14, 2015)

*I'm sub 30*

I need this a lot because I'm sub-30 (27.74 ao5, PB: 8.61)


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## cashis (Jul 15, 2015)

Phantom777 said:


> I need this a lot because I'm sub-30 (27.74 ao5, PB: 8.61)



lolsingle


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## TDM (Jul 15, 2015)

cashis said:


> lolsingle


It's probably a typo and should be 18.


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## Isaac Lai (Jul 15, 2015)

Pranav Sindura said:


> Hey Guys! Its been a month since I was posted. I just wanna say that Thanks to this post Im finally sub20, Moreover im sub 17 now. My PB is 12.30 which is fullstep.
> 
> I think that there is one thing most people miss out, that TPS is also important. I just increased my TPS and then practiced to adjust my look ahead to my increased TPS. The result was sub20 solves most of the time, like 8/10 solves. Next is just practice. It took me more than a month to get sub 20.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ceqQEhh24M - My 14.06s Solve



Nah tps hardly matters until around sub-10 IMO


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## mafergut (Jul 17, 2015)

Isaac Lai said:


> Nah tps hardly matters until around sub-10 IMO



If I'm capable of doing 13.xx non-lucky full-step singles once in a while I would tend to agree with you as my TPS sucks rotten eggs. Also, that's my only hope, to improve lookahead and LL recog so that I can get at least sub-15 without any significant improvement of my TPS, which I don't think are gonna improve any time soon.


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## mark49152 (Jul 18, 2015)

Isaac Lai said:


> Nah tps hardly matters until around sub-10 IMO


So assuming you're talking about CFOP with average of about 60 moves/solve and perfect look ahead, what you're saying is tps hardly matters until you're >6 tps. I'll work on improving my tps until it matters then.


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## Isaac Lai (Jul 18, 2015)

mark49152 said:


> So assuming you're talking about CFOP with average of about 60 moves/solve and perfect look ahead, what you're saying is tps hardly matters until you're >6 tps. I'll work on improving my tps until it matters then.



CFOP doesn't take 60 moves...? More like ~50

Ok now that I think about it tps does kinda matter on last layer though.


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## TDM (Jul 18, 2015)

Isaac Lai said:


> CFOP doesn't take 60 moves...? More like ~50


You sure? On reddit they do daily scrambles where you post solutions. I always try to make mine efficient, using blockbuilding and multislotting, and I'm averaging 53. I sometimes count moves in untimed solves, only trying the (hand)scramble once and they're often high 50s to mid 60s.


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## Isaac Lai (Jul 18, 2015)

TDM said:


> You sure? On reddit they do daily scrambles where you post solutions. I always try to make mine efficient, using blockbuilding and multislotting, and I'm averaging 53. I sometimes count moves in untimed solves, only trying the (hand)scramble once and they're often high 50s to mid 60s.



I'm not that sure but I usually average around 50-60 but I don't use full OLL. I am pretty sure people who know full OLL can get well around that (50)


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## TDM (Jul 18, 2015)

Isaac Lai said:


> I'm not that sure but I usually average around 50-60 but I don't use full OLL. I am pretty sure people who know full OLL can get well around that (50)


Just did an Ao12 where I looked up the OLL if I didn't know it.

1:01.00, 1:02.00, 52.00, 1:07.00, 56.00, 1:02.00, 52.00, 1:02.00, 1:03.00, 59.00, 56.00, 1:03.00 = 59.60

That's very nearly 60... even taking away two or three moves for colour neutrality that's still far from 50 moves. You'll need a lot of other techniques (quite a few ZBLLs, some LS stuff) to get down to 50 moves.


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## Renslay (Jul 18, 2015)

TDM said:


> Just did an Ao12 where I looked up the OLL if I didn't know it.
> 
> 1:01.00, 1:02.00, 52.00, 1:07.00, 56.00, 1:02.00, 52.00, 1:02.00, 1:03.00, 59.00, 56.00, 1:03.00 = 59.60
> 
> That's very nearly 60... even taking away two or three moves for colour neutrality that's still far from 50 moves. You'll need a lot of other techniques (quite a few ZBLLs, some LS stuff) to get down to 50 moves.



What? Those numbers are times or... movecounts? :confused:


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## TDM (Jul 18, 2015)

Renslay said:


> What? Those numbers are times or... movecounts? :confused:


Movecounts, but it was easier to use qqTimer to enter the movecounts since typing in the number would generate a new scramble, and it also calculated the average.


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## alisterprofitt (Jul 18, 2015)

TDM said:


> 61, 62, 52, 67, 56, 62, 52, 62, 63, 59, 56, 63 = 59



FTFY. You could use the find/replace feature in Word to quickly do it, it takes less than 30 seconds.


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## mafergut (Jul 19, 2015)

It's also more like 60 moves or more for me most of the solves. Even in slow solves where I try to be movecount efficient.


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## DeeDubb (Jul 19, 2015)

Isaac Lai said:


> I'm not that sure but I usually average around 50-60 but I don't use full OLL. I am pretty sure people who know full OLL can get well around that (50)



I absolutely doubt you average under 60 in speed solves.


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## Isaac Lai (Jul 19, 2015)

DeeDubb said:


> I absolutely doubt you average under 60 in speed solves.



Wait let me clarify. Are rotations counted, and are double flicks counted as two moves? If yes to one or both, then I don't average under 60.


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## mark49152 (Jul 19, 2015)

Isaac Lai said:


> Wait let me clarify. Are rotations counted, and are double flicks counted as two moves? If yes to one or both, then I don't average under 60.


No and no. Typical move counts for an efficient CFOP speedsolver are, in STM, including AUFs: cross 6, pairs 29, OLL 10, PLL 15. If you are really saving 10 moves somewhere, I would really like to learn your secret. Can you post some example solves?


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## Isaac Lai (Jul 19, 2015)

mark49152 said:


> No and no. Typical move counts for an efficient CFOP speedsolver are, in STM, including AUFs: cross 6, pairs 29, OLL 10, PLL 15. If you are really saving 10 moves somewhere, I would really like to learn your secret. *Can you post some example solves?*



I'll try and reconstruct some of my solves then. But it's 10 pm now and I don't have a lot of time, so I will try this later.

EDIT: 

53 B2 L' F2 L' D2 L' D2 U2 R2 F2 D2 U' R2 F R' F2 D B2 D2 F
59 U2 B D2 U2 B2 U2 L2 D2 U2 B F2 R' U F L D' B D' U2 L D' 
42 F U2 F R2 U2 L2 B2 L2 B' U2 B L' U F' L F' R' B2 L' B U (WTF)
60 B2 L2 B2 L2 F D2 B2 F' L2 B' R' D2 R2 U F' R2 U' L D2 (E perm tho)
57 B' L B2 F2 D2 L F2 R' B2 R F2 U L2 B2 U R F' U' F

Ao5=56.33
Mo5=54.2

Yeah can't reconstruct now tho


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## GIEL (Jul 25, 2015)

It's not about how good you are in memorizing the algorithms and I mean you should look ahead in your next shot if you know what I mean. HAVE FAITH!


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## G2013 (Jul 25, 2015)

Well let's try ao5 and count the moves [R R' or R R2 whatever counts as 2 moves; slice moves count as 2]:

1. R2 U2 R2 D U' B D' R2 B2 F' D' R' D' L2 B L' R2 U' B2 R2 F R2 F' D2 B' U' L2 B' R' F' -> 53 moves

2. D B F R F D L2 R' D2 U' L' D U2 R U R' B2 D2 R U2 B2 F2 D' L2 D U L U B L2 -> 64 moves

3. R2 B' R' F' U' B' D2 R F' D U R' B L2 D2 B D B' U L2 D2 L' B' F2 D' U' F2 D2 B' U2	-> 57 moves

4. D R U2 F U2 L2 B L' F' L' R' F2 U2 L' U' R D' B R2 F D B F D2 L' F' L' F' R D -> 60 moves

5. D U' L F R D U2 F' U' L' R U2 L' D2 F' D' U2 L2 D2 U' L' R2 F2 D U L' B D B' U2 -> 66 moves

(53+64+57+60+66)/5 = 60 moves exactly


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## TDM (Jul 25, 2015)

G2013 said:


> slice moves count as 2


Why?

Also please use a good scrambler. qqTimer, Prisma, cTimer, csTimer all have random state scrambles. Use one of those.


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## GIEL (Jul 26, 2015)

Always Start with WHITE in my opinion


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## Isaac Lai (Jul 26, 2015)

GIEL said:


> Always Start with WHITE in my opinion



Nope if you use CFOP you should start colour neutral. Unfortunately not many people know that.


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## puzzl3add1ct (Jul 26, 2015)

Isaac Lai said:


> Nope if you use CFOP you should start colour neutral. Unfortunately not many people know that.


I agree


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## thelunarbros (Jul 26, 2015)

TDM said:


> Why?



Slice moves count as two because they are two simultaneous outer block turns. That's at least what I know, according to WCA regulations if you are off by a slice it's a DNF.


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## TDM (Jul 26, 2015)

thelunarbros said:


> Slice moves count as two because they are two simultaneous outer block turns. That's at least what I know, according to WCA regulations if you are off by a slice it's a DNF.


Other than penalties, if you're counting moves almost everyone uses STM for speedsolving.


----------



## Renslay (Jul 26, 2015)

TDM said:


> Other than penalties, if you're counting moves almost everyone uses STM for speedsolving.



Or ETM, where everything is counted as one move which is performed as one move.
y can be one move, U2 is one move, but U U are two moves, etc.


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## TDM (Jul 26, 2015)

Renslay said:


> Or ETM, where everything is counted as one move which is performed as one move.
> y can be one move, U2 is one move, but U U are two moves, etc.


Yes, or that. But personally I'm not too sure rotations should be included, especially when trying to calculate efficiency. I think ETM but excluding rotations would be an ideal metric (for me).


----------



## Renslay (Jul 27, 2015)

TDM said:


> Yes, or that. But personally I'm not too sure rotations should be included, especially when trying to calculate efficiency. I think ETM but excluding rotations would be an ideal metric (for me).



Well, ignoring cube rotations and merging U U into U2 (and others) technically leads to STM, I think.
By the way, I also prefer STM.


----------



## zbolmb (Jul 27, 2015)

Isaac Lai said:


> Nope if you use CFOP you should start colour neutral. Unfortunately not many people know that.



Why is being CN better than white cross? Is it so that XCross is much easier?


----------



## Isaac Lai (Jul 27, 2015)

zbolmb said:


> Why is being CN better than white cross? Is it so that XCross is much easier?



Because you can consider more options for cross? Whether there is a XCross is secondary. Being CN gives you 5 more options for cross.


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## zbolmb (Jul 27, 2015)

That sounds logical, I think I should probably attempt to switch now before I get any faster.


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## Torch (Jul 27, 2015)

Isaac Lai said:


> Because you can consider more options for cross? Whether there is a XCross is secondary. Being CN gives you 5 more options for cross.



At slower speeds (15-25s) the main benefit of color neutrality is the extra options for cross, but where I am (12-13s) I'm realizing that XCross/better lookahead into F2L is actually an even greater benefit.


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## 1Neoisaisa (Aug 31, 2015)

so pretty much the less the merrier


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## siapa (Sep 17, 2015)

is F2L 20s is good for sub 30 ?


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## mafergut (Sep 17, 2015)

siapa said:


> is F2L 20s is good for sub 30 ?



I assume you mean F2L including cross, then barely but, of course, it all depends on how fast your LL is. If you use 4LLL and extrapolating from the 20s F2L you will be probably over 30s total most of the time. If you use 2LLL and are decently fast at it but you just need to improve your lookahead during F2L then you can probably be consistently sub 30 (perhaps around 26s) with a 20s cross+F2L, yes.


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## Ewch (Sep 26, 2015)

Thanks!very helpful


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## Ben Wak (Nov 10, 2015)

I need to learn advanced 4x4 then I shall learn all of cfop


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## Rishi Rockzz (Nov 14, 2015)

ur post really helped me 
i have memorised 75 % of cfop but i cant even get sub 1 min . 
i have been confused why that happens. 
after seeing ur post i came to know where to improve


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## CriticalCubing (Dec 23, 2015)

I had made this video for sub 20. Never got around sharing it


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## mark49152 (Dec 23, 2015)

8 second F2L is good enough for sub-17 if you actually bother to learn full OLL/PLL and practise cross. 

I still don't get why people say you "don't need" full OLL to get sub-20. You don't need to be sub-20 at all - you could go do something useful instead - but if you do care about getting sub-20, it makes no sense to neglect learning alg sets that will help you greatly.


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## Ordway Persyn (Dec 23, 2015)

mark49152 said:


> 8 second F2L is good enough for sub-17 if you actually bother to learn full OLL/PLL and practise cross.
> 
> I still don't get why people say you "don't need" full OLL to get sub-20. You don't need to be sub-20 at all - you could go do something useful instead - but if you do care about getting sub-20, it makes no sense to neglect learning alg sets that will help you greatly.



+1, most OLL algs are extremely easy to learn as well. you can get sub 20 without it but I'd recommend learning at least the easy ones.

also good vid.


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## CriticalCubing (Dec 23, 2015)

mark49152 said:


> 8 second F2L is good enough for sub-17 if you actually bother to learn full OLL/PLL and practise cross.
> 
> I still don't get why people say you "don't need" full OLL to get sub-20. You don't need to be sub-20 at all - you could go do something useful instead - but if you do care about getting sub-20, it makes no sense to neglect learning alg sets that will help you greatly.


Because recognition. Some people have also mentioned that their recognition was bad and they couldn't execute it fast enough.
I had 12 sec cross + f2l when I was sub 20 with sub 8 last layer using 2 look oll and full PLL


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## asacuber (Dec 23, 2015)

Full OLL came to my rescue when I was stuck at trying to get sub 20 for 10 months or so.


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## Kudz (Jan 5, 2016)

CubingForLife said:


> Please Help!!!!
> Ao5 is 21.86
> Solves are
> 18.87,18.41,22.66,22.56,22.34
> file:///C:/Users/user/Documents/Youcam/Capture_20160105.mp4



There are two options:
-you are nice troll,
-you really thought that it can be posted directly from your computer.

Can't decide what is funnier tho =)


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## SiTeMaRo (Feb 26, 2016)

very good! I have many solves under 20, but my average is still 23-25. this helped me. thanks


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## Boneless (Mar 3, 2016)

Kudz said:


> There are two options:
> -you are nice troll,
> -you really thought that it can be posted directly from your computer.
> 
> Can't decide what is funnier tho =)



That's not how links work m8


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## the speedcuber (Mar 14, 2016)

You do need good algs and look ahead to be sub-20


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## shadowslice e (Mar 14, 2016)

the speedcuber said:


> You do need good algs and look ahead to be sub-20



You can be sub-20 without lookahead. Mine was terrible at 20 and I use roux which is arguably more reliant on lookahead.

Also, I average ~13 and some of my algs are still pretty awful and my execution could use some work (just ask berd)

That said, it is much easier to be sub-20 when those are good but they are not absolutely necessary. If you really wanted you could probably get sub-20 with beginners.


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## Rishi Rockzz (Mar 18, 2016)

thank you for your help. 
1. 27.69 R' F2 D U L2 F2 U L2 U' R2 D B2 L B' D2 L2 D2 F' D' R' U 
2. 34.30 F U F B2 L F' L2 B R L2 F' D2 L2 F' L2 U2 F2 D2 U 
3. 22.41[BEST MARCH '16] B' L2 D2 B2 R2 F' D2 F' L2 R U' F L' B2 R2 B' U' B' R2


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## rishirs321 (Mar 18, 2016)

Rishi Rockzz said:


> thank you for your help.
> 1. 27.69 R' F2 D U L2 F2 U L2 U' R2 D B2 L B' D2 L2 D2 F' D' R' U
> 2. 34.30 F U F B2 L F' L2 B R L2 F' D2 L2 F' L2 U2 F2 D2 U
> 3. 22.41[BEST MARCH '16] B' L2 D2 B2 R2 F' D2 F' L2 R U' F L' B2 R2 B' U' B' R2



Its another Rishi!
HI!


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## rajanreddy188 (Mar 30, 2016)

shelley said:


> SLOW DOWN AND LOOK AHEAD is much more important than GET GOOD ALGS, in my opinion. Case in point: it's well within the realm of possibility to reach sub-20 without knowing full OLL.



If you have perfect f2l, cross, and pll you can get sub 10 with 2 look oll.

The only problem is that this is very hard to achieve.

You can get sub 20 with 4LLL and good f2l.


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## TheFearlessPro (Apr 2, 2016)

You can get sub 20 with 4lll and lbl mixed with f2l lol. Just wut i did . so yeh I gotta learn f2l, this kinda helps in the next steps considering I have a sub20 and average sub 30s with lbl 4lll and f2l mixed in. Gotta start fully switching over


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## gateway cuber (Apr 3, 2016)

The single most important part of getting a consistent sub-20 average is look-ahead. Though many say "slow down and look ahead" It' more like slow down while your learning look ahead an during your competition or pb attempt, or practice solves, speed up and look ahead. the faster you can turn and still find your next pair before you finish the one your on, the better. Again whether you use 4LLL or 2LLL or 3LLL it makes only 1 second difference most likely however I do recommend you learn full pll and 2 look OLL because using 3 look OLL and/or 2 look PLL is something you don't want to do. So look ahead is definitely the most important part. And if you've mastered your look ahead and your times are only 3-4 seconds faster, than work on your TPS with turning exercises. And once you have good TPS and you still retain good look ahead, work on your last layer then not first. Anyway, it took me forever to master my look ahead and tps so don't expect this to happen overnight, you should practice your look ahead/TPS every day for at least 45 mins for 1-2 months. Yes quite a task isn't it? However, you will find it worthwhile because I and some of my friends have found that after breaking the 20 second Average barrier, we progressed very quickly and attained sub-15 averages within a month and a half! So, practice practice practice! And once you're ready to learn full/2 look OLL or 1 Look PLL, visit badmephistos cubing site. He definetly has the best OLLs and uses standard PLLs however I would reccomend learning your G perms from Chris Olson's site.


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## PurpleBanana (Apr 11, 2016)

gateway cuber said:


> I do recommend you learn full pll and 2 look OLL because using 3 look OLL and/or 2 look PLL is something you don't want to do.


Does anybody actually use "3 look OLL" who is even in the general vicinity of sub-20? How would that even work?



gateway cuber said:


> And once you're ready to learn full/2 look OLL or 1 Look PLL, visit badmephistos cubing site. He definetly has the best OLLs and uses standard PLLs however I would reccomend learning your G perms from Chris Olson's site.


I'd be wary of getting OLLs or PLLs from only one source. Algdb.net is what I'd suggest because it contains many algs submitted by different people. However, I'd still recommend supplementing it with other sites like Chris Olson's or badmephisto's in case they happen to have a good alg that didn't make its way on to algdb.


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## TheFearlessPro (Apr 14, 2016)

3-look oll? wut.


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## Hagincubes (Jul 29, 2016)

04mucklowd said:


> This may help me as I am finding it tough to get sub-20


I have a video on this topic, its not high quality video but the content is good.


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## anuj9994 (Aug 1, 2016)

I am trying to break the sub 20 barrier. My TPS and look ahead is not great. How should I approach it...Thanks...


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## mafergut (Aug 2, 2016)

anuj9994 said:


> I am trying to break the sub 20 barrier. My TPS and look ahead is not great. How should I approach it...Thanks...


Apart from what I already mentioned in the rts15 thread I'd say that, for more specific advice, having a video of like 3-5 solves would be nice to better see what you should put your focus on.
But, for example, can you plan at least the full cross in inspection and do it in 8 or less moves always? Also, you most probably do your cross on bottom but that's something that could be seen in a video as there are people that do it on top. Also we could see if you insert pairs on back slots or only in front slots, how much you rotate the cube... Just a couple examples.


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## Rishi Rockzz (Aug 8, 2016)

help me with look ahead,
i cant actually learn it from the videos i find in youtube nor from forum - im able to do look ahead but i cant do it so good to become sub-20,
pls help me with getting sub-20 using - white cross, intutive F2l , 2look OLL, full PLL

Generated By csTimer on 2016-8-8
avg of 12: 22.89

Time List:
1. 24.58 B2 D2 B2 U2 F2 L2 D2 L B2 F2 D' B2 R B2 R F R2 F2 U2 F2 
2. (26.14) U F2 L2 D' B2 L2 U' R2 U2 L2 U2 F' U L F2 L B' L R B' R' 
3. 24.28 L2 F' D2 B L U' L2 D F' D R2 B2 R2 D B2 R2 D L2 B2 U2 
4. 22.60 R2 U D2 B2 U' R' U2 B' D' B2 D2 F L2 F2 R2 F' L2 D2 R2 
5. (15.76) B' L U' F2 U2 D' R2 B' U R F2 L2 U2 D2 F D2 B2 D2 B 
6. 21.97 U2 B2 L2 B R2 F' D2 L2 R2 B F2 D R' F' D' L B2 D F2 R2 
7. 19.78 F' L D2 R' F2 D2 B2 D2 R' F2 L' U' B' R D' U2 B2 D2 L2 F2 
8. 22.70 F2 L2 D2 U F2 U2 L2 U R2 U' B2 L B F2 R2 D R2 U' R F U 
9. 24.49 R2 F U2 L2 U2 L2 F2 U2 F U2 L U' R' D' B L R B L2 R' 
10. 24.58 B' D' L2 U' D2 F' R' U2 B' D2 R' D2 R' U2 R2 D2 L' U2 B2 R' 
11. 22.41 D2 F2 R2 D U R2 D' L2 F2 D L B' L B2 D' U' B U' L 
12. 21.48 U F' R2 B2 R F2 U' B D B2 U2 B' D2 L2 B' R2 U2 F2 R2 U


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## Vaya inks (Aug 14, 2016)

Im a sub-40 cuber manily i work to much to actually mess with my cube anymore but aye wot ever. So on your journey to sub-20 where there things you regret/wish you would have done/wasted your time with/ or just tips you usally dont see. I mainly just wanna know what you regret


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## shadowslice e (Aug 14, 2016)

Right now, I don't really have any 3x3 regrets specifically but when I was just about sub-20 I vaguely remember wishing i was fully and properly x2, y neutral (I use roux primarily)- i could sort of do it but i was lazy in inspection and it was a fair bit of effort so i would advise CN from as early as possible. Generic advice i know but useful in many ways.

also, not so much at 20 but it caught up to me at 15 and below (even somewhat now at 11-12) is that i didn't know full CMLL until after breaking 15 so i wasn't very good at learning algs so it was a lot of effort again. I guess I'm saying that you should get into the habit of learning algs before you get too fast otherwise the gap just gets bigger and more frustrating over time. It also gives you more time to drill those algs and time to go through the set to make sure each if the algs is as good as you can get them.


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## Vaya inks (Aug 14, 2016)

shadowslice e said:


> Right now, I don't really have any 3x3 regrets specifically but when I was just about sub-20 I vaguely remember wishing i was fully and properly x2, y neutral (I use roux primarily)- i could sort of do it but i was lazy in inspection and it was a fair bit of effort so i would advise CN from as early as possible. Generic advice i know but useful in many ways.


 

Roux is the other method of sloving right?


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## shadowslice e (Aug 14, 2016)

Vaya inks said:


> Roux is the other method of sloving right?


There are lots and lots and lots of method to solve though most people stick with CFOP (not necessarily because it's best but because it's what everyone else does). Other methods you should at least look up are Roux, ZZ, PCMS and Petrus though looking at others is never a bad thing.

I actually consider myself very fortunate that I look at the Big 4 and could do all of them to some extent until I chose at around 30 seconds which is something most people don't do- this was mostly thanks to @Dan Cochrane and @Berd.


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## Matt11111 (Aug 15, 2016)

shadowslice e said:


> There are lots and lots and lots of method to solve though most people stick with CFOP (not necessarily because it's best but because it's what everyone else does). Other methods you should at least look up are Roux, ZZ, PCMS and Petrus though looking at others is never a bad thing.
> 
> I actually consider myself very fortunate that I look at the Big 4 and could do all of them to some extent until I chose at around 30 seconds which is something most people don't do- this was mostly thanks to @Dan Cochrane and @Berd.


Well, hats off to you, mate.


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## turtwig (Aug 15, 2016)

My biggest regret is probably not being CN.


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## phamtuanktdt (Oct 7, 2016)

I tried and I think it works, lol


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## XerNosam (Dec 5, 2016)

So basically for the past 4-5 months I've been stuck at around a 19-20 second average, and it's driving me absolutely nuts. I've watched countless videos, tried countless methods, yet absolutely nothing's working. I am not getting better and sometimes I'll even get 25 which is really annoying. Being stuck right here for this long is quite discouraging and I'm close to just forgetting speedcubing. Does anyone have any tips? I don't care if I've heard them before I just want as much information as I can get.


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## Daniel Lin (Dec 5, 2016)

DON'T QUIT
just turn slower. counterintuitive, but it works


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## Sitkhom (Dec 5, 2016)

Slow solves, dont focus on time but on efficiency and do not quit, but I advice you to try other cubes when you are stuck.

Enviado desde mi Redmi Note 3 mediante Tapatalk


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## pglewis (Dec 5, 2016)

XerNosam said:


> So basically for the past 4-5 months I've been stuck at around a 19-20 second average, and it's driving me absolutely nuts. I've watched countless videos, tried countless methods, yet absolutely nothing's working. I am not getting better and sometimes I'll even get 25 which is really annoying. Being stuck right here for this long is quite discouraging and I'm close to just forgetting speedcubing. Does anyone have any tips? I don't care if I've heard them before I just want as much information as I can get.



Heck if I know yet as I'm only approaching sub 40 consistently. But do you record your solves and watch with an eye for what can be improved?


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## XerNosam (Dec 5, 2016)

Daniel Lin said:


> DON'T QUIT
> just turn slower. counterintuitive, but it works


Okay I will try that thank you


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## XerNosam (Dec 5, 2016)

pglewis said:


> Heck if I know yet as I'm only approaching sub 40 consistently. But do you record your solves and watch with an eye for what can be improved?


Yes I do sometimes. I look for mistakes but have trouble fixing them.


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## The Blockhead (Jan 15, 2017)

Thank you very much. I have been searching for a very long time for something like this. It should help out a lot.


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## Hogr (May 25, 2017)

I am a average 22.
avg of 12: 22.72

Time List:
1. 21.02 U F2 L D2 B U' R2 F' R' D2 L2 B2 R2 F2 U2 B2 D F2 B2 D B' 
2. 24.22 L' U' D R2 B' U' L' F U R2 L2 U B2 U' F2 D2 L2 B2 R2 B 
3. 20.75 B R' B2 R' D2 F2 U2 L B2 L R2 F2 U' F R2 D F L F U' B' 
4. 25.48 R F2 U L2 F2 U' R2 B2 U2 L2 U' L' B F' L2 D B L' D2 L' R 
5. 20.99 L2 F' U2 F L B2 L D B2 L B2 L D2 R' B2 L2 F2 U2 L2 F 
6. 24.45 F' R2 U2 F2 U' L' D R' F2 U F R2 L2 B D2 F' D2 B R2 U2 F' 
7. (28.22) F2 R' D2 U2 B2 L' D2 R F2 U2 R2 F' L' R U' R U' R2 D2 F 
8. 20.70 L2 U B U F B2 D' R' B F2 U L2 F2 R2 F2 U R2 L2 F2 U2 
9. 24.09 F' L U B' R F' D B2 R2 D' L2 U2 F' B2 R2 D2 B D2 F2 L2 U2 
10. (20.35) B' R2 L2 F' D2 L' U L D' F2 R2 D L2 D' F2 R2 B2 L2 D2 F' 
11. 22.71 B F2 R' D2 F2 L2 F2 R' B2 L D B2 U B' R2 D2 B2 F' D 
12. 22.74 L2 F2 R' F2 R' F2 R D2 U2 F2 U2 B' L B2 U2 F' L2 U L' F2 D

I can finish cross and F2L at 14sec. 
Should I concentrate on F2L and cross or LL?


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## Rishi Rockzz (May 25, 2017)

try to get cross + f2l in 11 seconds,

thats what i tries when i had te same problem and now im average 17

concentrate on f2l


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## Hogr (Jun 7, 2017)

Rishi Rockzz said:


> try to get cross + f2l in 11 seconds,
> 
> thats what i tries when i had te same problem and now im average 17
> 
> concentrate on f2l


I just cannot get my cross+ F2L to 11 seconds. I have tried everything; reducing my tps to 1,2,3,and even 4. I just cannot get it to work.


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## TDM (Jun 7, 2017)

Hogr said:


> I just cannot get my cross+ F2L to 11 seconds. I have tried everything; reducing my tps to 1,2,3,and even 4. I just cannot get it to work.


If 3 TPS isn't enough for an ~11 second F2L, your solutions may not be efficient enough. Take a look at reconstructions of people's solves on RCDB or looking at algorithms on AlgDB, and see if there are any solution to cases which are better than what you currently use.


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## Friendly Cuber (Jul 1, 2017)

In order to become sub-20, you have to practice constantly (like almost everything in cubing) you don't need to know full PLL or OLL necessarily to become sub-20 (though it's very helpful). Imrpove your look ahead, fingertricks and efficiency and you will easily become sub-20.


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## Cubed Cuber (Jan 5, 2018)

My cross takes me about 3 secs
my f2l takes me about 12 secs
my oll takes me about 4 secs
my pll takes me about 4
4+4+12+3=23 secs


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## greentgoatgal (Jan 5, 2018)

What kind of cube? 2 look oll? What about pll? Intuitive or algorithmic f2l?

Keep practicing, do a lot of untimed solves.


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## WombatWarrior17 (Jan 5, 2018)

Focus on F2L lookahead, and make sure to plan your entire cross during inspection.
Also, drill your OLL and PLL algs and make sure you use good fingertricks.
Learn algs for tricky F2L cases.
And most importantly: practice!


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## Cubed Cuber (Jan 5, 2018)

greentgoatgal said:


> What kind of cube?


Gan SM



greentgoatgal said:


> Intuitive or algorithmic f2l?


algorithmic f2l



greentgoatgal said:


> 2 look oll? What about pll?


2 look oll and 1 somtimes 2 look pll
(don't know full pll yet)


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## kemuat (Jan 5, 2018)

Whoa work on your last layer. Full PLL is necessary for sub 20 imo.
My best advice to anyone that wants to improve but isn't improving is to take a break. Take your mind off of cubing for a week or so. I used to always think about cubing when I started (I make sound like it was so long ago when it hasn't even been a year yet lol). I used to practice non-stop for at least an hour every day. Then, when I was trying to be sub-20, I got so busy with work that I couldn't even practice. It was over two weeks when I finally had the time to cube again. I started timing myself to find that I barely was averaging 26. It took a while to get back to speed, but I realized that I was improving again. Now I use breaks whenever I feel that my growth is slowing down. So yeah, got a bit off topic, but seriously, taking a break pushed me way further than I would have if I practiced with the same intensity.


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## Cubed Cuber (Jan 7, 2018)

Some people recommend me to practice my f2l lookahead / fluency by slowly doing solves.


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## greentgoatgal (Jan 7, 2018)

Do untimed solves instead of slow solves.


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## CarterK (Jan 7, 2018)

One thing that should help is understanding why your F2L algs do what they do.


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## Mr.DudeCubing (Jan 11, 2018)

I am constantly averaging 17 and the biggest tip is to learn full pll (it will only cut down about 1-2 seconds.)and work on your f2l lookahead. Sub 20 is the stage where lookahead really matters. Do 5 slow solves and then do 5 solves at your regular pace and see how that helps.


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## CLL Smooth (Jan 11, 2018)

When I was close to sub-20 I kept that constant for a long long time. I think the trick was not practicing very much. And definitely not doing any targeted practice.

I’m sorry, don’t mind me. I’m only amusing myself


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## Competition Cuber (Jan 11, 2018)

Cubed Cuber said:


> My cross takes me about 3 secs
> my f2l takes me about 12 secs
> my oll takes me about 4 secs
> my pll takes me about 4
> 4+4+12+3=23 secs


Get your F2L down to 9 seconds, and you entire LL down to 6 seconds. If your cross stays the same, the 9+6+3 = 18 seconds.


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## Cubed Cuber (Jan 11, 2018)

CarterK said:


> One thing that should help is understanding why your F2L algs do what they do.


I do.



Competition Cuber said:


> Get your F2L down to 9 seconds, and you entire LL down to 6 seconds. If your cross stays the same, the 9+6+3 = 18 seconds.


My f2l is about 10 -11 secs! yay!
(bad ones are about 12-14 secs)


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## Sheldon Rego (Feb 3, 2018)

Rishi Rockzz said:


> help me with look ahead,
> i cant actually learn it from the videos i find in youtube nor from forum - im able to do look ahead but i cant do it so good to become sub-20,
> pls help me with getting sub-20 using - white cross, intutive F2l , 2look OLL, full PLL
> 
> ...


Look ahead is overrated for sub 20.
U should be doing f2l efficiently and do every pair with max 8 moves and 1 rotation.
Cross should also be 8 moves and 4 look ll will work.


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## Sheldon Rego (Feb 3, 2018)

XerNosam said:


> So basically for the past 4-5 months I've been stuck at around a 19-20 second average, and it's driving me absolutely nuts. I've watched countless videos, tried countless methods, yet absolutely nothing's working. I am not getting better and sometimes I'll even get 25 which is really annoying. Being stuck right here for this long is quite discouraging and I'm close to just forgetting speedcubing. Does anyone have any tips? I don't care if I've heard them before I just want as much information as I can get.


Efficiency in f2l is more important (according to me) at this stage.
Look ahead comes in at sub 15.
U should complete cross-f2l in 10 seconds.


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## Sheldon Rego (Feb 3, 2018)

shelley said:


> SLOW DOWN AND LOOK AHEAD is much more important than GET GOOD ALGS, in my opinion. Case in point: it's well within the realm of possibility to reach sub-20 without knowing full OLL.


According to me, efficient f2l is more important.
Choppy solves full of pauses can also be sub 20 if the f2l is efficient (8 moves and 1 rotation per pair max).
Look ahead is still important in sub 15-12


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## Clarkekoko11 (Feb 4, 2018)

Slow solves are what made my times go down, improve your lookahead too.


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## Mr.Roux86 (Feb 4, 2018)

*LukeMayn* said:


> ok, I think this would be a good way to start the intermediate place so here we go!
> First off I'll be talking mainly about the fridrich method. if you know another method, stay here as it will likely be beneficial anyway. So here we go!
> 
> step 1: Use the search bar for stuff (seriously)
> ...


Haha, was:2²[Y


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## shelley (Feb 6, 2018)

Sheldon Rego said:


> According to me, efficient f2l is more important.
> Choppy solves full of pauses can also be sub 20 if the f2l is efficient (8 moves and 1 rotation per pair max).
> Look ahead is still important in sub 15-12



Lol you quoted an almost 9 year old post. Cube hardware in those days didn't allow you to spam TPS the way everyone does nowadays.


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## casi (Feb 17, 2018)

I finally got to sub-20 - I would recommend concentrating a lot on f2l and doing a ton of lookahead.


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## Dat Boi Travis (Feb 20, 2018)

How i averaged sub 20- (currently sub 11)
Get a good speedcube
Learn full PLL and make sure they're good algs (Algdb.net and cubeskills.com have good algs)
learn 2 look oll and some easy oll cases (full oll is NOT required to be sub 20. I average less than a second slower using 2 look oll rather than full oll when I speedsolve. 10.8 full oll and 11.7 or so using 2 look.)
Be efficient. The top speedcubers average ~60 moves per solve. (watch lots of example solves and many different f2l cases from different angles. Even learn edge orientation if you want to.)
Look ahead. Smooth f2l is MUCH better than spamming tps. Dont just slow down f2l, but look ahead so you have no pauses.
have a good cross. Your cross should be 7 moves or less and you should be able to do it blindfolded.
Build x crosses or plan out an f2l pair during inspection. This will greatly benefit your cross to f2l transition.
Have decent tps. A 60 move solution with 5 tps will yeild a 12 second solve. 
Do all of this and not only can you be sub 20, but you can be sub 10 or faster.


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## 1001010101001 (Feb 20, 2018)

Dat Boi Travis said:


> How i averaged sub 20- (currently sub 11)
> Get a good speedcube
> Learn full PLL and make sure they're good algs (Algdb.net and cubeskills.com have good algs)
> learn 2 look oll and some easy oll cases (full oll is NOT required to be sub 20. I average less than a second slower using 2 look oll rather than full oll when I speedsolve. 10.8 full oll and 11.7 or so using 2 look.)
> ...


So cfop biased guide


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## 1001010101001 (Feb 20, 2018)

This thread is CLOGGED with CFOP sub 20 discussion. SPare a thought for the better and more efficient methods Roux, ZZ and Shadowslice's methods.


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## casi (Feb 20, 2018)

CFOP ftw!


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## 1001010101001 (Feb 21, 2018)

casi said:


> CFOP ftw!



*ZZers and rouxers cry*


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## Kumato (Feb 28, 2018)

1001010101001 said:


> *ZZers and rouxers cry*


Or you could just use petrus.


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## Toran Jain (Apr 3, 2018)

*LukeMayn* said:


> ok, I think this would be a good way to start the intermediate place so here we go!
> First off I'll be talking mainly about the fridrich method. if you know another method, stay here as it will likely be beneficial anyway. So here we go!
> 
> step 1: Use the search bar for stuff (seriously)
> ...


Thx it would help me a lot


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## casi (Apr 3, 2018)

Kumato said:


> Or you could just use petrus.


Just peel the stickers off!


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## Rithvik Madupuru (Jul 17, 2018)

How do you get sub 20?


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## shadowslice e (Jul 17, 2018)




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## emps (Aug 6, 2018)

I need help with cross to f2l transition. if i can get my cross to f2l transition better and drill some ll algs i can become sub 20.

here are my splits : cross - 6 seconds (akward pause for like 3 or so seconds) f2l - 10 seconds oll - 3.5 seconds pll - 3.5 seconds


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## xtom (Aug 12, 2018)

Maybe you still remember the www.rankingtimer.com I created 3 years ago, it could only be used on desktop browser.
Now I have created the Wechat mini app for it, you can use it on phone.

Search '排名计时器' in Wechat app, or scan below QR to get it.






Same function, simple UI, enjoy it!


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## Ender_Mage14 (Aug 12, 2018)

I am using intuitive f2l with a few algorithms, 2 look OLL and 1 look PLL. I can usually finish the first 2 layers in around 15 seconds, and my average solve time is 25-27 seconds. Please tell me how I can improve my times to be sub 20!


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## GenTheThief (Aug 12, 2018)

https://www.speedsolving.com/forum/threads/how-to-get-faster-using-the-fridrich-cfop-method.6085/
There's literally a how to be sub-20 thread somewhere but I don't feel like finding it right now.
E: found it
https://www.speedsolving.com/forum/threads/how-to-be-sub-20.14009/

I guess splits could be like this:
Cross:2
F2L pair: 2.25
F2L pair: 2.25
F2L pair: 2.25
F2L pair: 2.25
Edge OLL:2
Corner OLL:2
PLL:2

Make sure to drill your LL algs; just repeat them over and over so you can execute them in around 1.5 sec. It looks like they could use some work if you're done with F2L at 15 but finish ten seconds later.

Also just do a ton of solves.


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## LightFlame_ (Aug 13, 2018)

Can you record a video of one of your solves? We might be more helpful if we can see what we're working with.

I recommend this site for helping out with transitioning from cross to F2L. There is also a thread dedicated to it.


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## xtom (Aug 14, 2018)

If you want to try it on your phone, the wechat mini app is available, see details here:
https://www.speedsolving.com/forum/threads/wechat-mini-app-available-for-rankingtimer.70694/


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## Ender_Mage14 (Aug 17, 2018)

GenTheThief said:


> https://www.speedsolving.com/forum/threads/how-to-get-faster-using-the-fridrich-cfop-method.6085/
> There's literally a how to be sub-20 thread somewhere but I don't feel like finding it right now.
> E: found it
> https://www.speedsolving.com/forum/threads/how-to-be-sub-20.14009/
> ...


Oh. Didn't know there was a sub-20 thread... thanks anyway.


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## U Perm (Sep 5, 2018)

ross mccusker said:


> take you long to learn how to do ur cross blindfolded? i could place 3 parts but even when looking i cant track the 4th piece !


 
I would suggest doing untimed solves with unlimited inspection and try to picture out the whole cross and what moves will do what to the 4th piece


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## Jozo_Berk (Dec 15, 2018)

Does anyone have a list of alternate pll algs because some of them are really not finger trick friendly (e.g. all the g perms)


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## joshsailscga (Dec 15, 2018)

Jozo_Berk said:


> Does anyone have a list of alternate pll algs because some of them are really not finger trick friendly (e.g. all the g perms)



algdb.net/puzzle/333/pll

This is every case presented with the top 3 or 4 fastest algs for that case.


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## Jozo_Berk (Jan 12, 2019)

kuzelnet said:


> I use Badmephisto's PLL + OLL (didnt learn even half)
> I didnt like F for PLL ([R' U2 R' d'] [R' F'] [R2 U' R' U] [R' F R U' F])
> So I looked through Cube Wiki, and found " R' U R U' R2 F' U' F U x R U R' U' R2 B' " Quite nice alg  and pretty damm nice flow. *So, really changing alg helps ..*


If you're any good at T perm you can try this one - R' U' F' R U R' U' R' F R2 U' R' U' R U R' U R


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## Y Perm (Feb 15, 2019)

how do i get sub 20 i have good Look Ahead My OLL And PLL algorithms are fast but why am i not sub 20?


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## U Perm (Feb 15, 2019)

Y Perm said:


> how do i get sub 20 i have good Look Ahead My OLL And PLL algorithms are fast but why am i not sub 20?


Maybe it is your cross? if your cross is sub 3 (which mine is) then you should be fine


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## Filipe Teixeira (Feb 17, 2019)

just a quick youtube search...


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## Y Perm (Feb 19, 2019)

U Perm said:


> Maybe it is your cross? if your cross is sub 3 (which mine is) then you should be fine


How do i get sub 3 cross??


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## ElectricDoodie (Feb 19, 2019)

Y Perm said:


> How do i get sub 3 cross??


Watch those 3 videos Filipe Texeira posted and practice.


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## Hunar (Feb 24, 2019)

shelley said:


> SLOW DOWN AND LOOK AHEAD is much more important than GET GOOD ALGS, in my opinion. Case in point: it's well within the realm of possibility to reach sub-20 without knowing full OLL.


Please dont slow down see i am a sub 20 i know how to be sub 20. First i learnt advanced f2l tricks that is the MOST helpful. Brody the cuber has awsm videos on it. The other thing is plan the cross in your head and on very easy crosses try planning first pair too. Look ahead is an important thing but slow down will make you a bad habit, believe me. You should try your best and keep in mind during EVERY SOLVE that you shoul have no pauses during the solve. Insert your f2l pair but do not look at your pair look somewhere else. Hope it helps?


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## Y Perm (Mar 8, 2019)

greentgoatgal said:


> What are your splits? How are you defining good OLL/PLL and lookahead?


i can do pll and oll in under 1 second and i never pause


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## ElectricDoodie (Mar 12, 2019)

Y Perm said:


> i can do pll and oll in under 1 second and i never pause


You can do OLL and PLL sub-1 with not a single pause? So you can finish last layer in under 2 seconds, and you are asking for advice on how to get sub-20. That means your F2L is over 18 seconds? Yeah, that's what you need to work on...


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## Y Perm (Mar 21, 2019)

ElectricDoodie said:


> You can do OLL and PLL sub-1 with not a single pause? So you can finish last layer in under 2 seconds, and you are asking for advice on how to get sub-20. That means your F2L is over 18 seconds? Yeah, that's what you need to work on...


okay ill try and improve my f2l


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## WoowyBaby (Mar 22, 2019)

A practice technique I used that helped me get sub-20 is to ‘recite’ the moves to solve your cross, and visualize how your hands will finger trick those moves.
Then, I went on cstimer and did a bunch of crosses, blindfolded (or in my case just closing my eyes lol).
You crosses will be surely be sub-3, maybe even faster (I believe I get ~2.2 on avg)
Now that you do not have to use your energy on the cross, you can try to see what you’ll do for your F2L Pairs while you do your cross. And if it’s an easy cross you can even plan you first pair too or X-cross, but only when it’s easy.


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## Gan boi (Mar 31, 2019)

shelley said:


> SLOW DOWN AND LOOK AHEAD is much more important than GET GOOD ALGS, in my opinion. Case in point: it's well within the realm of possibility to reach sub-20 without knowing full OLL.


 
Actually, I agree. I do not have full oll and my PB for 3x3 is 22.78


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## Cogman09 (Jun 16, 2019)

So i'm currently getting 25 second solves on average and my pb is 16.35. I need some tips to get sub-20 or at least better than 25.
Thanks!


----------



## Competition Cuber (Jun 16, 2019)

Cogman09 said:


> So i'm currently getting 25 second solves on average and my pb is 16.35. I need some tips to get sub-20 or at least better than 25.
> Thanks!


Do you know 4-look last layer? If not, learn it, it will help greatly


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## Cogman09 (Jun 16, 2019)

Competition Cuber said:


> Do you know 4-look last layer? If not, learn it, it will help greatly


yes, i do

I'm just wondering about any f2l tricks that would help
and i want to learn 2-look last layer (are there any good algs?)


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## Daxton Brumfield (Jun 16, 2019)

cube skills typically has very good algs for oll and pll, but algdb.net is also great


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## Astral cubing (Jun 17, 2019)

Just learn full pll which is 21 algs and if u know 4 look then you at least know like 3 of 21.
Learn a alg every other day and drill your algs. Hope this helps


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## jronge94 (Jun 17, 2019)

Cogman09 said:


> So i'm currently getting 25 second solves on average and my pb is 16.35. I need some tips to get sub-20 or at least better than 25.
> Thanks!



I'm going to be brutally honest for a second here. We get the I'm x speed how do I become y speed waaaaaaaaay too often and it's a really annoying question if you don't provide any information. You could also probably find any answers we'd give you anywhere else. There's a lot of good resources out there.
If you still don't know what to do next, fine feel free to ask a question and I'll happely answer to the best of my knowledge.

(I'm going to make examples from my own solving)
Example of a bad question: "I'm currently almost sub-14, how do I become sub-12????" No one knows anything, what sets do I know I haven't provided any information on what I can improve one

Example of a somewhat decent question: "Hey I'm currently averaging a little over 14 seconds with pure CFOP (full OLL and PLL) and am dual color neutral (which I don't intend to change). My splits are give or take 1.5/8/1.75/2.75,what do you guys think I should work on"

A good question is combining the above question and providing a video of an ao5 or some example solves so people can get some actual footage that provides waaaay better information on how you can improve.

Quickly editing this in: I'm not trying to discourage you from asking questions, but encourage you to go exploring a bit first. Findig stuff on your own also makes you retain things better. Don't take this information in a bad way, but see it as opportunity to learn.


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## hellfireofdoom (Aug 5, 2019)

Hey guys, I've been cubing since almost a year now, and I'm looking to get sub-20. I currently average around 25 seconds and I've learnt full PLL and on the verge of learning full OLL (still have like a few cases to learn). I don't know what I'm supposed to do to decrease my times, so I'm searching for guidance from greater cubers. I have this checklist of things I want to do on my road to sub-20 and I was wondering if you could give some feedback on it! 

ROAD TO SUB 20


L̶e̶a̶r̶n̶ ̶f̶u̶l̶l̶ ̶P̶L̶L̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶h̶a̶v̶e̶ ̶g̶o̶o̶d̶ ̶m̶u̶s̶c̶l̶e̶ ̶m̶e̶m̶o̶r̶y̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶f̶i̶n̶g̶e̶r̶t̶r̶i̶c̶k̶s̶ ̶f̶o̶r̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶m̶
Learn full OLL and be familiar with all the cases(almost done)
Learn more F2L algorithms for different slots and improve look ahead(to improve)
Practice planning first F2L pair during inspection
Learn full COLL(40 algorithms)
Learn Winter Variation(27 algorithms)

Of course, I will try to improve my lookahead throughout the road, it's just that I find difficult finding the pieces. I watched this video of cyotheking talking about F2L lookahead and it recommanded doing slow solves for a week, so I think I'm going to do that soon. Thanks for anyone trying to help me, and have a good day!


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## Daxton Brumfield (Aug 5, 2019)

the number one thing you should try and do is just work on efficiency. It is tough to get sub 20 when you are averaging 100 moves or so per solve so watch lazer monkey's video on f21 cases done efficiently. You also have to learn how to drill ll algs. I would try and get most plls sub 2, and all of them sub 2.5. Don't worry so much about full oll, and focus on getting sub 1 execution on all the cross cases, and implement all the easy one like the t cases. Besides the one with headlights in the front this should be easy. combining that with the time it takes you to get to a cross case, and pll, your ll should be sub 7. That leaves you with around 12-13 seconds for cross and f21. plan cross in inspection, and solve f21 efficiently and you are set. hopefully that helps.


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## hellfireofdoom (Aug 5, 2019)

Daxton Brumfield said:


> the number one thing you should try and do is just work on efficiency. It is tough to get sub 20 when you are averaging 100 moves or so per solve so watch lazer monkey's video on f21 cases done efficiently. You also have to learn how to drill ll algs. I would try and get most plls sub 2, and all of them sub 2.5. Don't worry so much about full oll, and focus on getting sub 1 execution on all the cross cases, and implement all the easy one like the t cases. Besides the one with headlights in the front this should be easy. combining that with the time it takes you to get to a cross case, and pll, your ll should be sub 7. That leaves you with around 12-13 seconds for cross and f21. plan cross in inspection, and solve f21 efficiently and you are set. hopefully that helps.


Thanks, I'll watch the video you recommanded. My last layer really isn't that good, so I should probably practice that as well.


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## Daxton Brumfield (Aug 5, 2019)

yeah if you want sub 20 try and get at least sub 7 LL

I think you can probably get sub 6 or even 5 if you practice recognition and drilling algs


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## hellfireofdoom (Aug 5, 2019)

Daxton Brumfield said:


> I think you can probably get sub 6 or even 5 if you practice recognition and drilling algs


Yeah probably, certain PLL cases are just so obnoxious with their fingertricks


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## WombatWarrior17 (Aug 5, 2019)

hellfireofdoom said:


> Learn full COLL(40 algorithms)
> Learn Winter Variation(27 algorithms)


Don't worry about WV that much. There are only a few cases worth learning. And don't learn Sune and Anti-Sune cases for COLL.


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## Skittleskp (Aug 5, 2019)

If you want to find out what you need to improve at specifically than try this:
this is what percent of your solve time should be taken up by each step

cross: 10%
F2l: 60%
Oll:15%
Pll: 15%

this is just aproximate guidelines. I average 15 my f2l is pretty fast and my last layer takes up a lot


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## hellfireofdoom (Aug 5, 2019)

WombatWarrior17 said:


> Don't worry about WV that much. There are only a few cases worth learning. And don't learn Sune and Anti-Sune cases for COLL.


Got it, I don't think WV is that important for now, can probably help me later on but it prob won't be necessary for sub-20. For COLL, I learned 2 cases for the H OLL case ( the ones with two pieces of the same color next to each others) since they're quite easy.



Skittleskp said:


> If you want to find out what you need to improve at specifically than try this:
> this is what percent of your solve time should be taken up by each step
> 
> 
> F2l: 60%



Yeah I think F2L is probably the most important step of your solve since it's the longest part of your CFOP solve. I find mindblowing that top solvers can do F2L in under 5 seconds, it's incredible.


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## samath (Aug 20, 2019)

I have been trying so hard in the past 6 months to get sub 20 average.
But i am still average about 21 to 23 secs.
Is there any use full tips on how to be sub 20?

i have pretty good f2l
ok cross
and my last layer sucks
i know 17 plls
and i dont know how much olls i know
my algs are a bit long




And my cube sucks 
a super moded rubiks brand
(it is pretty smooth)


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## Wish Lin (Aug 20, 2019)

samath said:


> I have been trying so hard in the past 6 months to get sub 20 average.
> But i am still average about 21 to 23 secs.
> Is there any use full tips on how to be sub 20?


Can you be more specific, like your f2l time ,how many OLL/PLL algs you know or something? A video will be the best.


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## Llewelys (Aug 20, 2019)

samath said:


> how to be sub 20?


You can answer your own question:



samath said:


> my last layer sucks


What do you mean by that ?
- If you lock up a lot, drill your algs
- If it takes time to find the right alg / you hesitate during its execution, drill your algs
- If it takes time recognising cases without AUFing for nothing, learn 2 side recognition (quite easy for OLL, a bit harder but doable for PLL)



samath said:


> i know 17 plls


Learn full PLL, it's not that hard



samath said:


> my algs are a bit long


Change them. There are plenty of great ressources out there, like algdb.net



samath said:


> my cube sucks


There are great cheap speedcubes. You might want to check out the "Which cube should I get ? Up to date recommendations" thread.


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## Atomix (Nov 7, 2019)

McBeef said:


> Hello everyone as the title states, I cannot get sub 20s often. my PB is like 14.xx (very lucky solve) but my AO5 is around 24 so here are the facts of my solves.
> 
> CFOP
> Cross: 3-5 (seconds)
> ...


I have the exact problem. I avg about 22. The thing that I am trying is advanced F2L(algorithmic approach for bad cases) and starting to Look ahead along with better cross solutions (which isnt going that well) as cross should take about 5% of your total solve time.


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## PetrusQuber (Nov 7, 2019)

Atomix said:


> I have the exact problem. I avg about 22. The thing that I am trying is advanced F2L(algorithmic approach for bad cases) and starting to Look ahead along with better cross solutions (which isnt going that well) as cross should take about 5% of your total solve time.


Nice bump dude. Eh, I guess you’re continuing the current discussion.


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## ProStar (Nov 8, 2019)

Ok. I see all the posts, but I'm going to sum up all of them:

Practice.

That's it. Literally what everyone is saying is either

"You need to be able to do PLL faster"

or

"Lookahead"

Both of those just come with doing hundreds to thousands of solves. There really isn't something in particular you need to do, just solve a bunch.


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## chron0s (Nov 8, 2019)

Not disagreeing with anyone here - this is all great advice. My times are similar to the original poster - one thing I'm currently using to improve PLL recognition and execution is JPerms PLL trainer (jperm.net). I don't have a lot of time to practice and its a great way to isolate PLL cases that I'm looking to improve and drill them in a way that seems to translate well to real solves.


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## Twelvangla (Nov 15, 2019)

B


Novriil said:


> sub-20?? I just made 3x3 PBs.. 11.35 sec single.. 2LOLL


Bruh WUT


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## DerpBoiMoon (Apr 21, 2020)

Help averaging constient sub-20? when im warmed up iget 17-18s but get 22s in the morning when i just wake up


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## Twelvangla (Apr 22, 2020)

DerpBoiMoon said:


> Any help to average consistently on sub-20? when I'm warmed up, I get 17-18s but I get 22s in the morning when I just wake up


Five months after you replied to this thread, haha. I'm having these problems too, but I guess you just need to practice more to get faster. I stuck at 20 in a point, and I had to just practiced lots to overcome the barrier. (I don't cube that much now, but I've been in the same situation, and I think this situation is normal.)


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## Zain_A24 (Apr 22, 2020)

DerpBoiMoon said:


> Help averaging constient sub-20? when im warmed up iget 17-18s but get 22s in the morning when i just wake up





Twelvangla said:


> Five months after you replied to this thread, haha. I'm having these problems too, but I guess you just need to practice more to get faster. I stuck at 20 in a point, and I had to just practiced lots to overcome the barrier. (I don't cube that much now, but I've been in the same situation, and I think this situation is normal.)



Having peaks and troughs in your times is perfectly normal, and happens with almost every cuber to a certain degree. What matters more is what is causing the difference in times between your first solve of the day and being fully warmed up, and what your actions will be to improve your times further. A lot of this is from practise. You won't see cubers going to comps doing their first 5 solves of the day (I haven't attending any comps to know that but there may be some people - you know who you are )

Are there any specific areas of weakness in your solves. Doing split times for each phase (4 for CFOP) would help to see where the difference is coming from, it certainly helped me a lot during my 3x3 tracking an progress, realising that my cross inspection and times were incredibly inconsistent, resulting in ineffective lookahead to first pair and a lack of "momentum" in solves.

Every cuber has their own strengths and weaknesses. It's about spotting the weaknesses and targeting them until they are no longer a weakness. Hope this helps.


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## DukeCubes (May 7, 2020)

I am a cuber that averages around 22 seconds and am looking to reach the mark of sub 20. I have a lot of good F2L algorithms but I cannot seem to get sub 20, so I think I need to work on my cross to F2L efficiency. Any tips?


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## GAN 356 X (May 7, 2020)

If you aren't already I'd highly recommend spamming TPS on F2L algs so you dont have to look at them when you start look ahead. I made this mistake, and regretted it. In terms of cross to f2l efficiency maybe try and track one corner and find the edge when you're done the cross. Hope that helps


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## DukeCubes (May 8, 2020)

Awesome Thanks!


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## SirCuberCat (May 8, 2020)

just wondering, is forcing keyhole on an f2l slot faster than a normal algorithm? Because now i'me trying to make use of multislotting and etc


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## Micah Morrison (May 8, 2020)

1. Solve Cross on Bottom

2. Be able to solve the cross in under 8 moves every time

3. Plan out your entire cross in inspection. This may be hard at first so I would recommend not using WCA inspection

4. Be able to solve your cross blindfolded every time, except instead look at your first f2l pair whilst solving the cross.

5. Make sure that in 95% of f2l pairs you never rotate twice. If there's an f2l case where you consistently rotate twice, learn a better alg for it.

6. NEVER do a y2 rotation

7. Insert your first f2l pairs in the back slots if possible. The next best thing to do is to fill up the two slots on the left. Don't do unnecessary rotations to do this

8. Make sure every basic f2l pair solution is in muscle memory and be able to solve them blindfolded

9. Look at different f2l pairs while solving your current f2l pair

10. Be able to solve every f2l case in 8 moves or less, except a few cases where the pieces are in different layers or are matched up incorrectly which may require 11 moves.

11. Have good OLL fingertricks. Be able to execute every OLL alg you know in under 2 seconds

12. Use good OLL fingertricke. I would recommend watching Feliks' video on Cubeskills about his OLL fingertricks

13. Never rotate in the last layer. Use U moves to line up your case instead

14. Learn full PLL. It's not required to learn full OLL at this point. It's not even required to know full PLL to be sub 20 but I would recommend it.

15. Have good PLL fingertricks. Be able to execute every PLL in under 2 seconds. Feliks has a good video on PLL as well

16. Be able to predict your AUF for PLL.

EDIT: Not all of these tips need to be applied to be sub 20, but every one will make you faster.


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## Cody_Caston (May 8, 2020)

Try inspecting for longer if you inspect for like 4 seconds like i do (yes i know i need to fix that)


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## ProStar (May 8, 2020)

Micah Morrison said:


> 5. Make sure that in 95% of f2l pairs you never rotate twice. If there's an f2l case where you consistently rotate twice, learn a better alg for it.
> 
> 6. NEVER do a y2 rotation







Micah Morrison said:


> 11. Have good OLL fingertricks. Be able to execute every OLL alg you know in under 2 seconds
> 
> 12. Use good OLL fingertricke. I would recommend watching Feliks' video on Cubeskills about his OLL fingertricks




You can tell what he thinks is important by how many times he repeats it 



Seriously though, amazing advice by Micah. Everything he said I agreed with


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## Cody_Caston (May 8, 2020)

One thing that helped me get sub 20 is doing big cubes because it helped with my lookahead


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## Sub1Hour (May 8, 2020)

Cody_Caston said:


> One thing that helped me get sub 20 is doing big cubes because it helped with my lookahead


I have always been more serious with big cubes than 3x3 ever since I got my first 6x6 and 7x7 back in June of 2018 (I started in April 2018), and I think that has helped me a lot with my lookahead. It's much harder to lookahead on big cubes than 3x3 since there are so many pieces and such so when I did 3x3 it felt much easier to look ahead to just F2L pairs instead of all of those centers on 5-7. I would also learn how to do intuitive F2L along with using some algs for bad cases since it makes your solves smoother and eventually you can influence other F2L pairs and OLL once you get faster.


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## Username: Username: (May 8, 2020)

DerpBoiMoon said:


> Help averaging constient sub-20? when im warmed up iget 17-18s but get 22s in the morning when i just wake up



When approaching sub 20, lookahead is not really a big deal at those stages, improving your F2L efficiency definitely helps, since you turn less, which makes less time for F2L and also, overtime you should generate more efficient F2L algs during solves due to experience. Learn 2LLL, I know maybe some people will say that 2LLL is not necessary during sub 20, but it definitely chops off a couple of second, maybe 3 or 2 second, but still, those are a huge improvement and step towards sub 20, it may even give you a head start when becoming sub-15.

tl;dr improve F2L efficiency and learn 2LLL, it definitely helps.


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## mitja (May 8, 2020)

Cody_Caston said:


> One thing that helped me get sub 20 is doing big cubes because it helped with my lookahead


Also, one handed solving stops your TPS a bit and helps for better lookahead.


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## Rubuscu (Apr 22, 2021)

Hello.

I was averaging well below 20 seconds a week ago. But now, my times are rising up again. Nowadays, I only get a sub-20 average of 5 after doing about 10-15 solves. This is not ideal, as I have to do so many solves before getting a sub-20 average. 

I think the main reason for this is because of stupid very long pauses all the time. But still, I have not started looking ahead since it is not recommended at this level.

Is this situation common? What should I do next?


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## Skewb_Cube (Apr 22, 2021)

If you're averaging around 20s then you should start looking ahead unless your efficiency isn't that good and things aren't that much into your muscle memory, if that's the case then practice your efficiency first. And your times getting higher is something that happens to me too every now and then and it's normally due to the lack of practice.


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## rubik2005 (Apr 22, 2021)

A Perm said:


> Hello.
> 
> I was averaging well below 20 seconds a week ago. But now, my times are rising up again. Nowadays, I only get a sub-20 average of 5 after doing about 10-15 solves. This is not ideal, as I have to do so many solves before getting a sub-20 average.
> 
> ...


Look ahead _will _make a significant difference (as long as you're not making 50 moves for each F2L pair). Think of it like eating cereal and watching TV in the morning: do you really need to watch the bowl and the spoon to make sure that it goes into your mouth? No. You can just pay attention to the TV instead.

Same thing with F2L. If you know how to make an F2L pair, don't look at it, but instead look at the rest of the cube, and at the very least track some pieces so that you have an idea of what your next move will be (which in your case this happens during the long pauses). There's a couple ways to do this:



Spoiler: 1.) Slow down



Just because you are turning as fast as possible doesn't mean you'll have a fast solve. It's like putting on some blurry glasses which means you can't look at the cube all that well and thus worsen your look ahead. Meanwhile, turning slower (but not like 1 tps) will allow you to get a glance at the moving pieces and make it easier to track things.





Spoiler: 2.) Solving Pairs Blindfolded



Do the cross (make sure you're always doing it in ≤ 7 moves), stop, think of how you'll solve your next pair, and do it with your eyes closed. Then repeat this with each other pair. Eventually, you'll be able to focus on the other pieces since this practice will build your muscle memory, making a pair more of like an OLL where you don't even think about it.



As for OLL and PLL, 2-look OLL is definitely fine for sub-20 (I average 15s and have like 20 more to left), and you should know full PLL at this point (as well as fast executions for each of them).


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## Cubing Forever (Apr 22, 2021)

(I was barely sub 20 CFOP for a brief period before switching to Mehta)
My main advice is do a lot of untimed solves and some chill turning(i.e turn in a relaxed sort of way) when you do timed solves. When you do that, try to look ahead. You'll find it difficult at first but it'll be easy later on.

Also, do this drill:
1)Go to https://cstimer.net, click on WCA and click on 3x3. Click on the dropbox next to it and select the option called cross solved.
2)Scramble the cube
3)recognize first pair
4)solve it blindfolded
5)repeat steps 4 and 5 for all F2L pairs

Do this and about 500-750 solves later you should be sub 20.


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## SlowerCuber (Apr 22, 2021)

I'm around the same speed of you, and I look at it in another perspective:

Roll a dice long enough, you will get 3 consecutive ace in a row. Similarly you may come at a point where you get some easy solves so get sub-20 AO5 , and that depends on luck. At one day it might be 10 solves to get sub-20 AO5, but another day maybe 100 solves. Simply looking at the "best" AO5 in a day does not mean your time is rising or dropping

However if, say you're doing like 100 solves a day, and your AO100 is rising up day by day, that might really mean you're slowing down. Maybe take a break, or do some "Chill turning" as BrodytheCuber said, or just some untimed solves, and see what went wrong in your solves.

As for lookahead, I feel the pre-requisite is to not to look at the current thing you're doing (mostly cross and F2L). @rubik2005 above made a good point: it helps to practice solving pairs blindfolded. If you can that, there's nothing to prevent you from practicing lookahead


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## Betoso330 (Jan 24, 2022)

To begin with you should have a moderately good cube. *Moyu RS3M 2020 and Moyu R3SM 2021 Maglev* are good options, for quality and price.

Now let's talk about the method. there are many methods you can learn, like *CFOP, Roux, Petrus, ZZ.*.. But definitely if you want to be under 20 you can't use the Beginners method. On youtube there are thousands of tutorials of many methods. Learn the one you like the most!

I understand that not many have a lot of time to cube, but it doesn't matter if you have a lot of time or a little, you should take advantage of your practice sessions. Not only should you practice, you should also learn things. For example: if you know reduced Fridrich you can learn a *PLL* or *OLL* that you don't know.

I assure you that if you follow all these tips, in time you will be able to be under 20.


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## crazykitten499 (Feb 1, 2022)

What about Roux?


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## Garf (Feb 1, 2022)

crazykitten499 said:


> What about Roux?


Roux is a more of an intuitive-based method, with not a whole lot of algorithms. If you can get good at it at an early start, then that's great. Lookahead isn't the best because there are always places that you can't really see.
However, CFOP has a more algorithm based approach and requires less lookahead as you continue.
It is certainly a battle between the Fridrich method and Roux, but while Roux has potential, CFOP is just easier to go off of if you learned how to solve the cube lbl.


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## Scrollo (Feb 13, 2022)

so i have been cubing in like 2-3 months i have been practicing alot for sub 20 but i cant seem to get it consistently fullstep 

feel free to ask questions


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## Rubuscu (Feb 13, 2022)

What happened in my case for a really really long time (about 5 months) was that I would go through phases of sub-20 and over-20. I got my first sub-20 ao5 about 5 months before I got my first sub-20 ao100. So, what I really mean is that, for a long time, it may seem you are sub-20, but in reality, this is just superficial. You would need a lot more practice and time before you can be sub-20 on a long scale and only then can you call yourself to be sub-20.

Good luck to everyone!


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## abunickabhi (Feb 13, 2022)

sub-20 in 3bld is super doable, L' U' S U L F2 L' S' L F2.


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## lefty2shoes (Mar 18, 2022)

Need some advice please. I'm getting so close to sub 20 (ao100), but progress seems to be stalling at around 20.5 to 21s for ao100. 

I'm wondering where I would get the most benefit from focusing on?

I use CFOP 3LLL. I just finished learning the last of my PLLs a couple months ago, but my typical ao100 has only improved by about 1.5s in that period of time. I average about 400-500 solves per week, almost all are timed speed solves.

Typical splits:

cross: 2.46s (7.6 moves)
F2L: 10.86s (32.5 moves)
OLL: 3.58s (15.6 moves)
PLL: 3.92 (14.5)

total: 20.9s (70.3 moves) for a recent 119 solve session. The full splits from cubeast using a GAN smart cube are attached. 

I don't know or do any edge control or keyhole (not even sure what it is), etc. And I don't always have my cross fully planned out, usually the first 3 at least, sometimes all 4, but never all four and the first slot... I've tried that a little bit but it seems VERY hard. 

I don't really do any specific practice or drills. Mostly timed solves for fun or random slow solves. I'm not sure if my recognition time is my downfall? or if it is normal... or if my tps for OLL and PLL are just plain slow. And I'm not really interested in learning another 50+ algs just to cut a second off of OLL (doesn't seem commensurate with the effort), but I suppose i would if absolutely needed to. Or do I just need to solve for another six months or more?


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## Garf (Mar 19, 2022)

lefty2shoes said:


> Need some advice please. I'm getting so close to sub 20 (ao100), but progress seems to be stalling at around 20.5 to 21s for ao100.
> 
> I'm wondering where I would get the most benefit from focusing on?
> 
> ...


Do slow solves to where you can be able to look away from what you are solving, mainly F2L, and be able to find other pairs as you solve. That will get your times down by about 3-4 seconds, I am sure of it.


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## Llewelys (Mar 19, 2022)

You can gain that half second on your cross. You said it yourself, you don't always plan it in its entirety.
You should work on that first, edge control isn't necessary to get sub20 (and keyhole is an f2l technique for when a corner or an edge is already solved).
The cross should take about 10% of your solve, so if you want to average sub20 you should get it to sub2.
Also don't worry about cross+1 until you can plan your full cross comfortably in under 15s


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## lefty2shoes (Mar 21, 2022)

TheEpicCuber said:


> Do slow solves to where you can be able to look away from what you are solving, mainly F2L, and be able to find other pairs as you solve. That will get your times down by about 3-4 seconds, I am sure of it.


Thanks. I will try to work on this more. When I did a few over the weekend, with a one second glance at the cube and then look away to solve the F2L pair, I end up being able to successfully solve a little more than half. With a longer look before looking away I can get most F2L pairs (+80%) without looking, but I can definitely work on this... and that doesn't require me to learn 50+ more algs! 

And the cross.. @Llewelys , yes, I have no real excuse for not planning it fully. I'll work on that at the same time since they go hand in hand.

Edit: I'll focus most cube time on just slow solves and work on looking, then looking away to solve (cross and F2L pairs). that will be a change for me as I have always just practiced timed solves (because they are fun) where I'm trying to go as fast as I can. I only have limited time that i can commit to the cube each day, that's why I was asking where my practice time/methods would be best spent, but I'll work on above and report back in a month or so if I get any progress and can finally break sub 20 ao100. I set that goal over almost 2 years ago (wow, covid was that long ago already...) when I stopped beginner method and started learning F2L and more LL algs with the goal of sub 20 in mind.


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## Doug Cannon (Apr 24, 2022)

Practice your last layer algorithms with this OLL and PLL trainer. It's better to practice recognizing the pieces instead of spamming the algorithm, since you'll be able to improve your recognition instead of seeing the piece come back after spamming the algorithm.


https://bestsiteever.ru/oll/
https://bestsiteever.ru/pll/


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## sDLfj (Yesterday at 6:24 PM)

I currently average 29-30s. My F2L takes about 17-18 seconds. I am practicing more efficient F2L and I'm going to start practicing lookahead. When finding F2L pairs, do you look for the edge and then a matching corner, or the corner and then matching edge and why?


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## OldSwiss (Today at 7:13 AM)

lefty2shoes said:


> And I'm not really interested in learning another 50+ algs just to cut a second off of OLL (doesn't seem commensurate with the effort), but I suppose i would if absolutely needed to. Or do I just need to solve for another six months or more?


It's not that hard to learn OLL. Most OLL algs are not so long and quite similar.
A lot of them are just sune or reverse sune with some wide moves or sexy/reverse sexy with some additional moves
You don't have to learn them all at once, just learn a couple of similiar ones and if you can do these, learn the next ones.

Cubehead has a good Video and PDF (Download in the description) about it.





I never used a alg trainer but I've trained them in groups.
For example if you do sune on a solved cube, you get an antisune.
So you can learn those to together. The same counts for most of the oll in some way. You will see it if you try it.
"Ligntning" which is just a sune with wide moves gives you "Righty Square" which is just a wide antisune.
This way, most oll are quite easy to learn.

If you encounter one you don't know, just do 2 look oll, if you get one you know, you saved a second 
If you save the second in 2 or 3 out of five solves you have your sub20


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