# Teaching young kids BLD cubing



## cmhardw (Jul 23, 2009)

Hi everyone,

For those who don't know I am the Center Director at an after school Math tutoring center called Mathnasium. We do Math and Science day camps here as well, and during these camps I often do puzzle seminars and puzzle classes about Rubik's cube. The students who come to our camps are in grades K-6. So far, after two and a half summers, I've been able to teach maybe 10 kids how to solve the cube. It just blows my mind how capable and intelligent kids are if you can just find a way of explaining something to them that makes the most sense to *them*. Ok, off my soap box now. The point of this thread is that in the camp we're teaching this week I am teaching two kids, who already can speed solve, how to solve blindfolded. Here is what I have taught them so far:

One of the students has learned how to do edge orientation and corner orientation, sighted. To help him practice I scramble a cube, then I copy the EO (edge orientation) and the CO (corner orientation) case onto a solved cube. He then has to solve this prepared cube, sighted, using blindfold methods. This way the pieces are in their correct locations, only flipped or twisted. Another girl has just started and I am teaching her the same thing.

Once I am done with EO and CO for both kids, I will teach them to cycle clockwise and counter clockwise with an edge and a corner three cycle from a fixed position. Then I will show them how to use setup moves to actually perform the cycle method. After that I will use a graduated method to get them to the point of actually doing a full BLD solve. It will go something like this:

1) Practice EO, sighted
2) Practice CO, sighted.
3) Practice combined EO and CO, sighted.
4) Practice simple EO cases, blindfolded. Teach them how to memorize with visual methods.
5) Practice simple CO cases, blindfolded. Teach them how to memorize with visual methods.
6) Practice simple combined EO and CO cases, blindfolded.
7) Practice EP (edge permutation), sighted.
8) Practice CP (corner permtuation), sighted.
9) Practice combined EP and CP, sighted.
10) Practice simple EP cases, blindfolded.
11) Practice simple CP cases, blindfolded.
12) Practice simple combined EP and CP cases, blindfolded.
13) Teach them about, and how to solve, corner and edge parity.
14) Practice a very simple combined case using all four of EO, CO, EP, CP, blindfolded.
15) Spend a class time, lecture time, on memory methods for memorizing the whole cube. Teach them the linked lists method with 8 prepared images for corners and 12 prepared images for edges.
16) Practice progressively harder prepared solves using all four of EO, CO, EP, CP, with and without corner and edge parity cases.

I'm really excited to be working with these kids. I only have the rest of this week to work with the one boy, so I will make sure we make it through at least step 6 of my method above to spark his interest. He has already gone through and finished step 3. Hopefully, by getting him to step 6, he will at least develop an interest in BLD and one day learn it on his own later (or come back to a camp and I'll teach him the rest!).

The girl I mentioned has 3 more weeks after this week at our camp, and I hope to at least get to step 15 with her. I figure if she has enough interest to develop a simple memory method, then she will surely have enough interest to go through Step 16 and learn to do full BLD solves.

I'm so excited. It is such a great feeling to teach a young kid to solve the cube - it is such a confidence boost for them. I feel like kids get more excited about learning to solve than adults do. I can't imagine how cool it will be to teach a kid how to solve blindfolded. I'll try to keep everyone posted on our progress in this thread as the weeks go by.

Chris


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## JLarsen (Jul 23, 2009)

As long as they have the drive it is completely possible. Best of luck.


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## Feanaro (Jul 23, 2009)

That rocks how you are so involved in getting other people, especially kids, into cubing. Most people would pass off kids as not having the attention span or something to solve the cube. Keep up the good work!


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## JustinJ (Jul 23, 2009)

That's so cool! I can't wait to hear how they do. Good luck!


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## Stefan (Jul 23, 2009)

Just curious: Why that method? The recent Easiest Blind Method poll of course had a popularity bias, but I do believe my "solve one piece at a time" principle is the most natural (which could be especially helpful for young kids) and easiest way...


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## CT_Warrior (Jul 23, 2009)

Well, I'd say you should teach them M2 for edges if you decide to change what method you're going to teach.

It's essentially the same as Old Pochmann without a long algorithm in between for them to memorize. It has more complicated setup moves, but Old Pochmann is too simple and I'd think that the kids would lose motivation in the same way that people think solving the rubik's cube is so special until they find out that there are algorithms. The kids would probably think that blindsolving is just a simple trick of doing one or two setups moves and applying a braindead algorithm.

M2 is confusing enough at the beginning and to avoid something like that and doesn't use algorithms, aside from the edge flipping at the end.

I was able to teach a few younger kids M2 with simple explanations of what the move M2 does and memory tips on setting up and reversing the setups.


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## Anthony (Jul 23, 2009)

CT_Warrior said:


> Well, I'd say you should teach them M2 for edges if you decide to change what method you're going to teach.
> 
> It's essentially the same as Old Pochmann without a long algorithm in between for them to memorize. It has more complicated setup moves, but Old Pochmann is too simple and I'd think that the kids would lose motivation in the same way that people think solving the rubik's cube is so special until they find out that there are algorithms. The kids would probably think that blindsolving is just a simple trick of doing one or two setups moves and applying a braindead algorithm.
> 
> ...



I disagree. I tried teaching my little brother M2 when he started blindcubing. He's 11 and averages around 25 seconds for 3x3 Speed. When he first started BLD solving, he thought M2 was extremely confusing. After about a few days of trying unsuccessfully, he got frustrated and discouraged. The next day I explained Old Pochmann, and he understood it right away. Although it took him a little while to get a successful solve, he knew he could do it, which motivated him to keep going.

Although I realize some other kids may get the hang of M2 much quicker, I still say start off with the easier method (Old Pochmann) and work your way up.

Just my two cents.


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## AvGalen (Jul 23, 2009)

StefanPochmann said:


> Just curious: Why that method? The recent Easiest Blind Method poll of course had a popularity bias, but I do believe my "solve one piece at a time" principle is the most natural (which could be especially helpful for young kids) and easiest way...


I agree with Stefan Chris. Doing "orient first" isn't something I would recommend for teaching kids. Doing "1 piece at a time" seems much more natural.

But your teaching methodology is excellent as always. Building it up in both amount and complexity while repeating the things they have already learned.

I would recommend doing some really easy scrambles (like "U", "U2", "R" and "R2") to give them an idea about when orientation changes, when parity occurs, etc. (It is also easy to rescramble )


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## cmhardw (Jul 23, 2009)

Thanks for the feedback everybody. I think I will go with Classic Pochmann. I can see how this will make the actual solving easier. The only thing that worries me, is that it is difficult to teach younger kids algorithms. The same boy who is learning BLD cubing, I tried to teach the J perm for his speedsolving. Although I did try to go slow and explain very visually how he was affecting the corner edge pairs, he got fairly frustrated and stopped cubing for the rest of that day. This is one of the reasons that I decided to change to BLD instead. He already knew how to use the Sune for OLL, so I just showed him how to use the double Sune method to orient 2 corners. Also the edge orientation alg (M' U M' U M' U2 M U M U M U2) has a nice pattern so he learned it quickly.

I do see how I would teach memory, and solving approach, and parity, using Classic Pochmann. To be honest though I am a little nervous about teaching them the T perm. The girl who is learning is older, so I think she should do fine. Also she can use the orient first algs that she has learned to handle correctly permuted but disoriented pieces when they happen.

Do you all have a "best PLL alg" for kids that I can use? The J perm is 14 turns and that is *way* too long I have learned. The T perm is also 14 turns, and I am afraid that in trying to teach it to them that I might frustrate them to the point of quitting for the day again.

Does anyone have any ideas as to a *very visual* and close to optimal, if not actually optimal, length algorithm that swaps two corners and two edges? I don't care whether it's T perm, R perm, etc. I will work with the algorithm given, but I need a better alg than the T perm. When I say better, I mean better for kids.

I do see that the Classic Pochmann method will be easier for teaching them to solve, and to memorize. The hangup right now is that the T perm will be too long and too difficult for *some* kids - enough so as to frustrate them to the point of quitting and possibly not even learning to BLD solve. I need a shorter and "easier" algorithm to teach them.

I kind of like the idea of M2, but how would I teach them to cycle to the M layer? I did try to teach them commutators, but they told me that the idea seemed very abstract and foreign to them. This means I would need more time to make sure they understand what a commutator *is* before I could teach them effective ways to use them. I am under somewhat of a time constraint as I only have a limited time with each kid to teach them as much of a BLD method as I can.

Also, I would still need a method for corners, and I have heard that R2 method has a lot of special case algorithms which would also be a worrisome point for teaching young kids.

Thanks everyone for any ideas,
Chris


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## Stefan (Jul 23, 2009)

Chris, I get the feeling you're ignoring the big picture. If they can't memorize a friendly 14 moves algorithm that they can even practice over and over again, how are they supposed to memorize 20 pieces with just one chance? If you're right and they're not ready to learn the T perm, then I'm sure they're not nearly ready for blindsolving.

How old are they? If a 3 year old can learn how to solve the cube, they certainly should be able to learn one algorithm (or a handful).

Also, the common T and Y perms could be learned in two steps each, (re)using these two OLLs:

OLL1 = (R U R' U') (R' F R F')
OLL2 = F R U' R' U' R U R' F'

T = OLL1 OLL2
Y = OLL2 OLL1

Then use that T for edges and that Y for corners...


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## StachuK1992 (Jul 23, 2009)

I think that a T-perm is more than appropriate. Teach them the algorithm the way that badmephisto does, visually, tracking the FR and the FL F2L 'blocks'.


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## blah (Jul 23, 2009)

Instead of teaching them 2 algorithms that are 14 and 15 moves respectively (T perm and conjugated Y perm). Teach them two algorithms that are 8 and 9 moves respectively:

A: R U R' U' R' F R F'
B: F R U' R' U' R U R' F'.

The "edge" algorithm would be A + B. The "corner" algorithm would be B + A. I would imagine this to be more digestible for the kids, no?

If you want to save the confusion, just use the actual Y perm for solving corners, sure setup moves will be a little longer, but at least they don't "learn any new algorithms". I believe this leads to a quick(er) and "clean"(er) algorithm-learning process. Don't even bother telling them that the F and F' cancel to give a 14-move T perm, have them figure that out themselves. I think getting past the algorithm-learning stage as soon as possible is important before they start to lose interest. Instead, focus on the interesting part of setup moves where they actually get to think, which will (hopefully) keep them interested 

Just my two cents


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## beingforitself (Jul 23, 2009)

cmhardw said:


> The only thing that worries me, is that it is difficult to teach younger kids algorithms. The same boy who is learning BLD cubing, I tried to teach the J perm for his speedsolving.
> ...
> The J perm is 14 turns and that is *way* too long I have learned. The T perm is also 14 turns, and I am afraid that in trying to teach it to them that I might frustrate them to the point of quitting for the day again.



Chris,

I am obviously not familiar with the particulars of your situation, but I think that you are very much underestimating the rote memory capacity of young children, which is quite astounding if properly tapped.



> Although I did try to go slow and explain very visually how he was affecting the corner edge pairs, he got fairly frustrated and stopped cubing for the rest of that day.



If I understand you correctly, you were trying to teach the permutation algorithm through visually "tracking" the F2L pairs and seeing how they move around. In my opinion this would be counterproductive for younger children. Might I suggest simply teaching the entire algorithm *by rote* with no reference whatsoever to what is actually happening on the cube. For example, if I were teaching the "standard" T-perm (R U R' U' R' F R2 U' R' U' R U R' F') to a child in the 5-7 age range (or an adult for that matter), this is how I would approach it:

Take a cube (scrambled or unscrambled, it doesn't matter). Do an R move on it, showing them. Ask them if they can repeat that for you. Obviously, because it is so simple, they will be able to. Next, do the same R move, this time following by a U move. Again, ask them if they can repeat this, which they again will most likely be able to do. Continue in this manner, tacking one move on at a time, *making sure they repeat the entire sequence to where they learned it each time*. Do not try to explain anything visual about edge-corner pairs, or the mechanics of what is happening. Merely show them the moves, and ask them to repeat them. Be very patient with them, and tell them not to worry, that you will help them if they forget. I think if you approach it in this manner, you will find that the T-perm can be memorized in under 10 minutes by most children. After they have the whole permutation memorized, and only after, should you start talking about what it actually does, and how to use it.

Just my two cents, not sure if it will be useful or not, but worth a try.

David


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## Mike Hughey (Jul 23, 2009)

First of all Chris, I'd like to say congratulations with your efforts teaching children. I know it's been really fun teaching my own kids, so I can understand how rewarding it must be for you.

When I taught my daugher Rebecca 4x4x4 (she had just turned 7 at the time), it was of course a challenge teaching her the parity algorithms. She still tends to forget them between competitions, and I usually have to re-teach them. (I'll probably have to spend time with her on them tonight so she can handle the Indiana Open!) But what I've found really works with kids on algorithms is to teach them by talking them through the algorithm.

First, do the algorithm with your arms around them, so they have the same perspective on the cube that you have.

Then, let them perform the algorithm, and correct their mistakes. The first time, tell them which sides to turn and which direction. Then the second time, let them try it themselves, and correct them when they make mistakes. Eventually they'll get through the whole algorithm without a need for you to correct them, and then it starts to get in their muscle memory. It's unfortunate because it means it's not really well-cemented in their memory, but they CAN learn even things like the OLL parity algorithm, which is certainly harder than a T perm.


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## AvGalen (Jul 23, 2009)

> The J perm is 14 turns and that is *way* too long I have learned


Uhm, if they already know Sune I would recommend the Niklas+Sune J perm: L' U R U' L U2 R' U R U2 R' (L' U R U' L U R' + R U R' U R U2 R')



> First, do the algorithm with your arms around them, so they have the same perspective on the cube that you have.


That's how I teach people to solve the Magic, Master Magic, sexy move and Sune

And indeed, don't underestimate their ability to learn algs. The above mentioned A+B OLL's are great, but children can memo lot's of songs, ropetricks and other big sequences remarkably fast


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## xXdaveXsuperstarXx (Jul 23, 2009)

Well, you can take this from my perspective (because I'm a kid). 
It's easy to learn repetitive stuff. It's also easy to learn stuff where
the white is (very) to track. It's also easy to learn stuff individually. Teach them the T perm in parts. That's what I did. I learned half and kept on practicing, then when I had that down, I learned the other half. 
Then when I mastered both parts I put them together.. Then mastered that...


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## miniGOINGS (Jul 23, 2009)

StefanPochmann said:


> Just curious: Why that method? The recent Easiest Blind Method poll of course had a popularity bias, but I do believe my "solve one piece at a time" principle is the most natural (which could be especially helpful for young kids) and easiest way...



HAHA!!! Yes, my poll has been acknowledged by the great Stefan!


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## CT_Warrior (Jul 24, 2009)

Well, this is how I went about teaching M2.

Teach them about the buffer and how you switch the buffer with UB.
Start with the easiest target, UB. Then teach them BR.

On a solved cube, apply this:
M2 U R' U' M2 U R U'

Tell them that the goal is to get the target slot into the UB slot without messing up any of the other M-slice edges.

Show them that turning the move B would put the BR piece into the UB slot, but mess up DB edge, so it wouldn't work, then break down the algorithm for them, maybe showing them the whole thing once beforehand.

1)Turn U - since the piece we want is on the right side, we move the UB slot closer to the piece. Tell them that the focus is now on UR, since the UB slot is there.
2)Turn R' - Move the BR slot into UR, the UB slot.
3)Turn U' - Move the UB slot back into UB.
4)M2 - Switches the two pieces.

Explain that the cube looks messed up now, but tell them that all they have to do is to undo what they did before and that the net effect is solving one edge without messing up the corners and other edges.

5)U - move the UB slot to UR
6)R - put the switched piece back into the right place.
7)U' - move UB slot back to place.

Hopefully they understood all of that. Show them that it's exactly the same thing for FR. Then show them how only a slight variation is needed to solve DR.

For UR, it will definitely be a bit harder to teach. Just tell them what setup moves are, and how if you do R', it becomes the same case as FR, and tell them to undo that R' at the end.

Tell them that it's exactly the same on the left side. Then, that's about 8/22 cases explained in about 5 minutes I'd think.

For the other 8 cases, LX and RX, just show them how it's the same thing, except with an x' rotation, and the emphasis on LB/RB instead of UL/UR. I'm sure they could figure it out if they understood well enough. The kid I was working with got it down pretty well. 16/22 down well enough for them to hopefully figure out on their own. Maybe it'll take 2 more minutes or so.

Next is just three algs, U2 M' U2 M', M U2 M U2, M2, and applying them to solve the cube. Explain what you have to do on the second pair, and you have taught them M2 minus breaking into new cycles and edge orientation. The process I'd think, doesn't take very long, depends on how well your explanations work for little kids. The person I taught already knew how to solve one layer, and he picked up on M2 very quickly from the way I taught him.

I wouldn't bother teaching corners. I doubt you'd have enough time to teach each of them a full BLD method and corners doesn't have a simple enough method. I was happy only being able to solve edges for a week before I started learning corners! If you taught them edges and have them have a successful bld edge solve, it'd be much more motivating than just knowing part of the whole bld method.

For memory, it's probably best to go visual since there's not much of an explanation for it. Tell them to take as long as they need, and lie and say it once took you, an adult, two hours to memorize just the edges to keep them from being discouraged. I'd tell them to memorize two edges, then four, then etc to climb up.

Maybe some kids will be sparked with interest after they understand it and help the other kids out, rather than struggling with a 14-move algorithm that might feel like trouble to learn, and execute. I know I'm being biased, but I like M2 that much! It's pure genius. <3


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## Stefan (Jul 24, 2009)

CT_Warrior said:


> I wouldn't bother teaching corners.


Hmm, good idea. You could give them the cube with the corners already solved. Then they'll...
- actually end up with a solved cube
- be able to use corners as reference, for help and error detection
- avoid parity.

For teaching M2, you could go further and start not only with the corners solved but with UF/UB/DB solved as well. But I still think old pochmann is better for this job.


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## deadalnix (Jul 24, 2009)

I strongly disagree.

For my experience, 3OP was far away clearer than pochmann method when I began.

More objectivly, I think it depend from who's learning.

3OP don't need that many algs, just 3 and they probably know some of them.

But I have to agree with stefan : if they are not ready to learn T perm, they are not ready for blindfold.


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## AvGalen (Jul 24, 2009)

deadalnix said:


> I strongly disagree.
> 
> For my experience, 3OP was far away clearer than pochmann method when I began.
> 
> ...


3OP needs at least 5 algs (yes, you could do 2 U-Perms for Parity fix but lets ignore that):
* A-Perm for corner permutation
* U-Perm for edge permutation
* corner-twister (like sexy-move*2) for corner orientation
* 2-flip for edge orientation
* Parity fix (H-Perm, T-Perm, J-Perm, whatever)

Explaining the concept of orienting pieces first is counter-intuitive. Kids would have to memo both orientations, perform it and after that would see.....a scrambled cube with almost no solved pieces. 3OP is only good because it makes solving 2 pieces at a time easy and because it teaches people a lot about how the cube actually works. Kids like to see results as soon as possible so I would recommend against 3OP.

(I personally use 3OP because it was the method that required the least amount of new algs and was very commonly used "back then")


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## deadalnix (Jul 24, 2009)

If theay have already learned a standard 4 look last layer, they perfectly get the concept of orienting/permuting.

Anyway, 3OP need more alg, but 5 isn't a big amount and remain perfectly reasonable.

For the a perm and U perm, you can also use RUR'D2RU'R'D2 and M'U2MU2 which are both really easy.

Not as easy as pochmann, but it remains perfectly usable for beginers.

An intuitive mind will prefer pochmann method, but a mathematical mind will prefer 3OP at first. (see yellow and blue on Ned Hermann's model for more informations about this if you are interested).

EDIT : for people dealing with M2. This is definitively a great method. But this is not a beginer method due to special tricky cases. Why telling them to use BH ? It intuitive also (I find it so great on corners !).


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## beingforitself (Jul 25, 2009)

deadalnix said:


> If they have already learned a standard 4 look last layer, they perfectly get the concept of orienting/permuting.
> 
> Anyway, 3OP need more alg, but 5 isn't a big amount and remain perfectly reasonable.
> 
> ...



The title of this thread is "teaching _young kids_ BLD cubing." As Chris mentions, this means grades K-6. "Perfectly usable" for someone 15 years old is far from perfectly usable for someone 7 years old.


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## cmhardw (Jul 25, 2009)

Hi everyone,

Thanks for the posts. I have been following this thread very closely and have decided that definitely the best choice is classic Pochmann. The two kids I have been teaching I will call Howard, and Mary. Those aren't their real names, I don't think their parents would like me talking about them online, but I want to refer to them easier than "the one boy" or "the one girl." Howard has finished his camp, but he can orient edges and corners blindfolded (I made it through step 6 of my first proposed method with him). We only did simple cases blindfolded, but he can do full EO and CO sighted. He also has a set color orientation, and I told him to practice.

Howard's older brother, let's call him Nick, is a cuber and is in High School. He comes to our center for regular math tutoring. What I told Howard is that I would teach Nick the Pochmann method, and then Nick would teach Howard the rest of what he doesn't know. Knowing how to orient pieces will help both Howard and Mary for handling permuted but disoriented pieces, so what I taught him is still useful.

Ok, so the other student, Mary, is coming for 3 or 4 more weeks of camp and she is older than Howard. I will start in directly on Monday with teaching her the T perm. I will make a big deal out of it being the "secret" to BLD or something silly like that to keep her interest. Then I will show her the alg by rote. If necessary I will possibly show her the first OLL, then the second OLL, then the combination of the two (with the cancellations).

After that we will solve pieces by type. If we are working on corners I will solve all edges on the cube first to make this easy to visualize. If we are working on edges I will solve all corners to make this easy to visualize. Mary can already orient edge pieces blindfolded (very simply EO cases), and can orient simple and complex CO cases sighted. She still needs to work on CO blindfolded, but I can just use that as "warm-ups" each day.

Thanks for the help everybody, I think Pochmann method will be much easier to teach younger kids. I will still use the first 6 steps of my first version proposed method for all potential BLD cubers, since this let's me gauge if they're ready. If a kid can't do simple EO cases blindfolded, then they are not ready for Pochmann method.

So my new proposed method of teaching young kids BLD cubing is:

1) Practice EO, sighted
2) Practice CO, sighted.
3) Practice combined EO and CO, sighted.
4) Practice simple EO cases, blindfolded. Teach them how to memorize with visual methods.
5) Practice simple CO cases, blindfolded. Teach them how to memorize with visual methods.
6) Practice simple combined EO and CO cases, blindfolded.
7) Teach them the T perm, in stages of 2 OLL's if necessary.
8) Pochmann corners sighted, teaching how to do them.
9) Pochmann edges sighted, teaching how to do them.
10) Simple corner cases blindfolded (2-3 cycles)
11) Simple edge cases blindfolded (2-3 cycles)
12) Very simple combination of both corners and edges (1-2 cycles per piece type).
13) Solve an entire cube, sighted, with the Pochmann method.
14) Spend a lecture time, or full class time, on the "linked lists" memory method. This one is the very easy, very visual, method to memorize and I think a very good option for kids. We need to make a prepared list of nouns from A-X. This will take one full class time, maybe 1.5 classes.
15) Start giving them progressively harder and harder solves, blindfolded. To do this I start with a scrambled cube and solve it a bit more than halfway myself with Pochmann method, and let them finish the solve. Each time I solve progressively one fewer corner and one fewer edge. Eventually they get a scrambled cube.

-------------------------

What does everybody think of this proposed method? I will go ahead and start with these steps on Monday, but I am of course open to feedback. Also, I will have feedback of my own as I teach it as to what works bests with the kids.

Chris


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## cmhardw (Jul 29, 2009)

Double post ftw!

Mary knows the T perm! Tomorrow we start with cycling corners (step 8)!

Chris


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## AvGalen (Jul 29, 2009)

cmhardw said:


> ...Mary knows the T perm!


Just 20 more PLL's to go 

I like how you can actually be so excited about someone else knowing 1 PLL. In almost every other thread this would have resulted in a "so what, why bother us with that information". But in this thread it is really worth mentioning

Good luck with the next steps


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## beingforitself (Jul 29, 2009)

cmhardw said:


> Double post ftw!
> 
> Mary knows the T perm! Tomorrow we start with cycling corners (step 8)!
> 
> Chris



Sounds awesome. How is teaching Pochmann corners going?

You might want to consider introducing one or both of the J-perms (as well as the Y-perm) in order to avoid certain 3-move setup cases which could turn out to be overly confusing. Also, I feel like Pochmann edges might be easier to do first than the corners, due to the fact that there are only two rather than three data points to think about.


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## cmhardw (Jul 30, 2009)

beingforitself said:


> Sounds awesome. How is teaching Pochmann corners going?
> 
> You might want to consider introducing one or both of the J-perms (as well as the Y-perm) in order to avoid certain 3-move setup cases which could turn out to be overly confusing. Also, I feel like Pochmann edges might be easier to do first than the corners, due to the fact that there are only two rather than three data points to think about.



Hi beingforitself,

Actually Mary did very well today for learning to cycle using Pochmann corners. Right now I am setting up what would essentially be the very last cycle, and having her do the setup move followed by the T perm, followed by undoing the setup. The result of her doing this is a solved cube, as I want to reward what she does each time to help boost her confidence. I did a number of 1 and 2 setup move cases, as well as one 3 move setup case. Tomorrow we will probably do some more 3 move setup cases, as well as having her do 2 corner cycles for the first time (simple cases).

I don't think I'll be showing her any other permutations for a while. Learning the T perm took 1.5 classes, and she still only knows it as 2 OLLs done one after the other. I did show her the cancellation, but she said it was more confusing to try to remember the cancellation than to just do the 2 OLLs. I told her that's fine, just do it as 2 OLLs.

All in all she is learning very quickly! I'm very excited, and very confident, that by the end of these 3 weeks she'll be a full blown blindsolver!

Chris


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## Stefan (Jul 30, 2009)

Chris, are you teaching her solving corners with the T perm? I really recommend using Y perm instead, even if it's the full Y perm starting with F and ending with F'. Setup moves get *so much easier*! And as she knows the two OLLs already, "learning" the Y should now be a breeze.

With the two-OLLs Y, if I'm not mistaken...

*1* case takes *0* setup moves
*6* cases take *1* setup move
*12* cases take *2* setup moves
*2* cases take *3* setup moves
---------------------------
average 1.71 setup moves

Can you do the same analysis for using T perm?

Besides being shorter, setup moves for using Y also only need R/F/D turns. And you're never in danger of destroying the buffer area (i.e. moving the swapping edges). When using T and solving from URB, how do you solve ULB?


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## ckcommando (Jul 30, 2009)

yea.. i am 13 and i can solve every rubiks cube ever made (2-7) and the megaminx, square-1--- and even the 3x3 in the beginner, fredrich, petrus, and 2-gen methods....

my iq says i am genius laugh-out-loud


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## cmhardw (Jul 31, 2009)

StefanPochmann said:


> Chris, are you teaching her solving corners with the T perm? I really recommend using Y perm instead, even if it's the full Y perm starting with F and ending with F'. Setup moves get *so much easier*! And as she knows the two OLLs already, "learning" the Y should now be a breeze.
> 
> With the two-OLLs Y, if I'm not mistaken...
> 
> ...



Hey Stefan,

Yes I can certainly see how using the Y perm is easier than the T perm for corners. Also, since she knows both OLLs already, it would be easy to just tell her to apply them in the opposite order.

I do have a question though, how would I teach her to solve cases where she needs to do an odd number of 2-swaps? I've never done Pochmann using different PLLs for corners and edges. If I had her solve corners first, and finish by applying the last Y perm (swapping UB and UL from the initial scramble), then she would have to account for the fact that they are swapped either during memorization, or during solving.

I feel this step would be a somewhat high level of abstraction to teach. If it's the only way then it's the only way and I'll teach her to do it. I don't want her to leave the last two edges and the last two corners to setup into a Y or T perm since that would be even more difficult. Is there an easier way to teach her to handle odd permutation cases in the corners and edges?

--edit--
Another idea is to have her use the T perm to first swap UB and UL back to their original locations. I would have her do M' S D' S' (T Perm) S D S' M and just teach this as an algorithm. I suppose that might be the easiest way to teach a younger kid how to handle this case? Or is there an easier way?
--edit--

Can someone provide an example solve for this scramble using Y perm for corners and T perm for edges? I made sure that the corner and edge orbits will have odd parity. You don't need to type out the Y perm, just write (Y Perm) or (T Perm) and I'm sure I can figure it out 

Scramble:
R2 F2 U' D B D' R' F U' L' F2 R2 L2 D2 U B2 L' U L' F L2 B2 L2 B F'

---------------------------------------------
Also, here is a T perm setup analysis. I am disallowing cases where you use slice turn setups to create a T perm on another face different from the U face. I think that is a bit too much for me to teach Mary right now.

I am counting in STM in order to make setting up to UBL easier. This is how I would teach the setups, so this is how I will count them here.

0 setup moves: 1 case
1 setup move: 3 cases
2 setup moves: 6 cases
3 setup moves: 8 cases
4 setup moves: 3 cases

average setup turns: 2.43 turns

--------------------

Thanks for the help everyone,
Chris


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## Stefan (Jul 31, 2009)

Interesting point about using T for both edges and corners so that fixing parity is just another T. Again, I'm just not used to the thought that someone intends to blindsolve and is incapable of learning the R perm. Kids...

In that spirit of doing more in order to learn less, you could fix parity by shooting to edge positions UL, UB, and again UL.



cmhardw said:


> Scramble:
> R2 F2 U' D B D' R' F U' L' F2 R2 L2 D2 U B2 L' U L' F L2 B2 L2 B F'



Corners:
F2 (F R U' R' U' R U R' F') (R U R' U' R' F R F') F2
(F R U' R' U' R U R' F') (R U R' U' R' F R F')
F (F R U' R' U' R U R' F') (R U R' U' R' F R F') F'
R2 (F R U' R' U' R U R' F') (R U R' U' R' F R F') R2
D2 R (F R U' R' U' R U R' F') (R U R' U' R' F R F') R' D2
R' F R (F R U' R' U' R U R' F') (R U R' U' R' F R F') R' F' R
F R' F' (F R U' R' U' R U R' F') (R U R' U' R' F R F') F R F'

Parity:
(R U R' U' R' F R F') (F R U' R' U' R U R' F')
R2 U' R2 (R U R' U' R' F R F') (F R U' R' U' R U R' F') R2 U R2
(R U R' U' R' F R F') (F R U' R' U' R U R' F')

Edges:
R2 U' R2 (R U R' U' R' F R F') (F R U' R' U' R U R' F') R2 U R2
D L2 (R U R' U' R' F R F') (F R U' R' U' R U R' F') L2 D'
d' L (R U R' U' R' F R F') (F R U' R' U' R U R' F') L' d
L d L' (R U R' U' R' F R F') (F R U' R' U' R U R' F') L d' L'
D' L2 (R U R' U' R' F R F') (F R U' R' U' R U R' F') L2 D
(R U R' U' R' F R F') (F R U' R' U' R U R' F')
d L (R U R' U' R' F R F') (F R U' R' U' R U R' F') L' d'
d' L' (R U R' U' R' F R F') (F R U' R' U' R U R' F') L d
L (R U R' U' R' F R F') (F R U' R' U' R U R' F') L'
D2 L2 (R U R' U' R' F R F') (F R U' R' U' R U R' F') L2 D2
l D' L2 (R U R' U' R' F R F') (F R U' R' U' R U R' F') L2 D l'



cmhardw said:


> I am counting in STM in order to make setting up to UBL easier.


Cheater 



cmhardw said:


> 3 setup moves: 8 cases
> 4 setup moves: 3 cases


11 cases needing 3 or more moves, some probably using inner slice moves, some probably really ugly... yeah, that was the reason I added Y perm back then when going from old pochmann version 1 to version 2...


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## Chuck (Sep 13, 2009)

Sorry for the bump.

I am in the process of teaching my fiancee BLD solving. So I really want to thank everyone for your helpful posts in this thread, especially Chris, Stefan, and Arnaud. I've decided that I will go with Classic Pochmann with simplified T and Y perm, and R perm for parity.

But Mike's post is my most favorite:



Mike Hughey said:


> First, do the algorithm with your arms around them, so they have the same perspective on the cube that you have.




Because it's my fiancee that we're talking about.


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## Mike Hughey (Sep 13, 2009)

Chuck said:


> Sorry for the bump.
> 
> I am in the process of teaching my fiancee BLD solving. So I really want to thank everyone for your helpful posts in this thread, especially Chris, Stefan, and Arnaud. I've decided that I will go with Classic Pochmann with simplified T and Y perm, and R perm for parity.
> 
> ...



Yes, I can see where that would be particularly nice.


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## Chuck (Oct 3, 2009)

I've just finished uploading my video tutorial based on this thread. As usual, it's in Indonesian  So I just want everyone to know that I'm very enthusiast with this thread. Thank you.


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## cubeman34 (Oct 3, 2009)

Chuck said:


> I've just finished uploading my video tutorial based on this thread. As usual, it's in Indonesian  So I just want everyone to know that I'm very enthusiast with this thread. Thank you.



*Must learn Indonesian*


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## Hyprul 9-ty2 (Oct 3, 2009)

*Must learn Indonesian too*
Oh wait.. Malay is pretty close


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## Mike Hughey (Oct 12, 2009)

Wow, Chuck! Not knowing Indonesian hurts a little, but it was really quite easy to follow, and I'm impressed how you managed to teach how to solve BLD with this method in just a 10 minute video! I'm inspired to start teaching my daughters tonight - I really think I could teach them this method!


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## d4m4s74 (Oct 12, 2009)

have you decided on a memorisation method yet?


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## Mike Hughey (Oct 12, 2009)

d4m4s74 said:


> have you decided on a memorisation method yet?



I'll probably teach them letters, and introduce images if I think they need it (one image per letter). But I'll deal with that when we get that far.

Edit: It just occurred to me that since my daughters already know the A perm from their beginner's sighted method, I could have them do corners first (easier for memorization, in my opinion - memorize corners last, solve first), then in parity case do one more Y perm, then do edges including the last edge, and then there are 3 corners left that are an A perm. So all I have to teach them is T perm and Y perm and I'm good. And Rebecca already knows T perm, so only one algorithm to go.

I'm quite sure the setup moves are going to be the toughest thing to teach.


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## Chuck (Oct 13, 2009)

Mike Hughey said:


> Wow, Chuck! Not knowing Indonesian hurts a little, but it was really quite easy to follow, and I'm impressed how you managed to teach how to solve BLD with this method in just a 10 minute video! I'm inspired to start teaching my daughters tonight - I really think I could teach them this method!



Thanks! 

Well, 10 minutes is just me explaining the method without any interactive part at all. At the end of the video, I told the viewers to view my other 10 minutes video (last part of Old Pochmann tutorial), so that they can get a scramble sequence which we will do the planning, memorizing, and executing together. Just like on Badmephisto tutorial, even the scramble is the same.



Mike Hughey said:


> I'm quite sure the setup moves are going to be the toughest thing to teach.



I agree. In the video, I simply said that F, B, U, and R turns are prohibited for doing edge setup. So are the L, B, and U for corner setup.

Good luck to Rebecca and Marie!
And good luck to you, of course


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