# Optimal Pyraminx Method?



## Carrot (Jan 7, 2010)

Hello =D

I tested the move count of my pyraminx method (WO, the pyraminx method I'm best with)... and I used a little bit over the WCA inspection to be sure I found the (maybe?) best way to do step 1 (I solved it mostly 2-step... so yeah)

I am now thinking, what method is closest to the optimal solution? and if you are good at an existing method, please count your moves and do an average (with qqtimer you can just count the length of the scramble to see what the optimal solution is for the scramble...) so we can compare...

If you have an idea of a method that might be very close to the optimal solution, please tell me the method's steps.. then I will learn it and do an average, unless you do it by yourself (I will learn it anyway lol)

I will start attributing with my average using WO (the move counts in blue are scrambles where I had an optimal solution ):
1. 10[8] B L B' R' U L' B' R'
2. (7[7]) U' L R U' L' R L'
3. 9[7] L' R B' U R' B' L
4. 8[8] R' U' L R' B L' U' L'
5. 13[8] U B' U B' R' U' B' U
6. 9[8] B U' L B' L B R' L'
7. 9[8] R' U L' B R U' L U
8. 10[8] U L' R' U B U R' L
9. 11[8] U L B' R' U B' L U
10. 12[6] L R U' L B U' :fp
11. 10[9] U B R' B' R L' B L' R 
12. 10[8] B L' B U' L B U' L

this leaves with an average of 9.8 moves and with an average of 1.8 moves away from optimal solution... (remember possible cancellations... and don't count the tips...)


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## SimonWestlund (Jan 7, 2010)

Amazing Oscar.

Can you post your solutions? 

My average was 14.2 moves with your scrambles 

My best solution was 9 moves on the 5th scramble.

5. U B' U B' R' U' B' U 9[8]

Solution: U B R B' R L' R L R


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## Carrot (Jan 8, 2010)

Simon, You are using double-x-mitsubishi/nuclear/cross/flower/something and then trying to force a LL skip? 

because normal LBL would not allow you to do that 

I will try see if I can reconstruct my solves later today =)


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## flee135 (Jan 8, 2010)

I got 9 on number 10 using simple OKA, but only because I skipped the last layer. It'd be interesting to see your thought process through these, because I cannot see great solutions for the first step every time, much less in the 15-second inspection limit.


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## Carrot (Jan 8, 2010)

flee135 said:


> I got 9 on number 10 using simple OKA, but only because I skipped the last layer. It'd be interesting to see your thought process through these, because I cannot see great solutions for the first step every time, much less in the 15-second inspection limit.



Well, I'm if I should be within the 15 seconds inspection I won't look any deeper than the first three starts... and I might not even search them deep enough to find the optimal thing for them... so I'm like 12-15 average if you take my speedsolves... but the algs in those are speed-optimized, and not optimal ;D

So by this thread I'm trying to ind a fewest move method, and not a speed-fewestmoves... if you for-example take my petrus style pyraminx method you'll see that I can see the first three moves in inspection, and when those are performed I'm counting the wrong edges... with my fingers -.-' and then after like 10 seconds I can continue in slowmotion 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
For Simon:

I tried to reconstruct them and got this:

1: B' U B' U R' B R' B' R (9/8) well... there was two nearly identical starts on this scramble... so I chose the 1-move shorter top hehe 
2: L R' L U R' L' U (7/7)
3: B R B' R U' B' L R L' (9/7)
4: ?? 
5: U B R B' R L' R L R (9/8)
6: ?? 
7: L' B L' U' L' B' U' B' U (9/8) I found the same as Simon hehe 
8: U R B R B L B' L' B U' (10/8)
9: R U' B' L B U R U' R' U B' (11/8)
10: U L B' L U R' B' R' B R L' (11/6) 
11: R' L B' L' R' B R B' U' (9/9)
12: ?? 

for the ?? I couldn't find any sub 12 solutions ... weird :confused: but whatever... my overall average with this method is about 10-12.5 hehe  and I'm color neutral+I know way to many tricks to do the same solve two times in a row ;D so I'm happy that I could get 9/12 of them the same move count or lower =)


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## Brunito (Jan 8, 2010)

17 19 15 15 14 (9) 10 15 11 15 21 (22)

it is a big sh*t. and whit this method my average is under 6 or 5 and official 5.31 hehe


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## Carrot (Jan 8, 2010)

Brunito said:


> 17 19 15 15 14 (9) 10 15 11 15 21 (22)
> 
> it is a big sh*t. and whit this method my average is under 6 or 5 and official 5.31 hehe



but your turning speed are good though =) my turning speed is very slow :fp


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## SimonWestlund (Jan 8, 2010)

Odder said:


> Simon, You are using double-x-mitsubishi/nuclear/cross/flower/something and then trying to force a LL skip?



That's exactly what I call my method! 


Thanks for the reconstructed solves as well.


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## Carrot (Jan 8, 2010)

SimonWestlund said:


> Odder said:
> 
> 
> > Simon, You are using double-x-mitsubishi/nuclear/cross/flower/something and then trying to force a LL skip?
> ...



Simon, that means you are using the polish V  hehe =D


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## DavidWoner (Jan 8, 2010)

1. B' U B' U R' / B R' B' R (9)
2. L' B' R U L' U / B' R L' R' L' B' L' (13)
3. R' U' B R' B R' / L R' L' R' U' R' U (13)
4. L' B L B L' R' U' L' / B R B' R' (12)
5. U B R' B' / L' R' L B' L B L' (11)
6. L R L U B' / R L' R' L (9)
7. L' B L' U' L' / B' U' B' U (9)
8. L' U R' U L U B / L' R L R' B (11)
9. U' R B U B / U L U' (8)
10. L' U' B' L' / R' U R U' R' (9)
11. U' L' B' R' / U B L' B' L' U L' U (12)
12. R B' R' U' B / R' L' R U' R U R' (12)

average 10/12 = 10.7
mean of 12 = 10.66
Distance from optimal = ~2.7

<3 optimal solution that is not inverse scramble 

There are of course some cancellations here that I would not see going full speed, but they would only increase a few solutions by 2 moves.



Odder said:


> my turning speed is very slow :fp



Mine is even slower >_> I want to burn this c4y pyraminx, send it straight to hell.


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## Kian (Jan 8, 2010)

DavidWoner said:


> I want to burn this c4y pyraminx, send it straight to hell.



Mine already took a dive, thankfully. What a piece of trash that thing was.


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## fanwuq (Jan 9, 2010)

1.8/8
2.14/7
3.13/7
4.12/8
5.12/8
6.15/8
7.12/8
8.12/8
9.8/8
10.14/6
11.13/9
12.13/8
LBL. 2 optimal forced LL skips.


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## Carrot (Jan 9, 2010)

DavidWoner said:


> 1. B' U B' U R' / B R' B' R (9)
> 2. L' B' R U L' U / B' R L' R' L' B' L' (13)
> 3. R' U' B R' B R' / L R' L' R' U' R' U (13)
> 4. L' B L B L' R' U' L' / B R B' R' (12)
> ...



That is very nice David, are you still using WO? or what method are you using? 

ohhh... Fanwuq, you are very consistent =D 

I'm gonna try with some other methods later today 

EDIT: just tried your solutions... AWESOME!!! =D it's some variant of the polish V? O____o


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## Brunito (Jan 9, 2010)

DavidWoner said:


> 1. B' U B' U R' / B R' B' R (9)
> 2. L' B' R U L' U / B' R L' R' L' B' L' (13)
> 3. R' U' B R' B R' / L R' L' R' U' R' U (13)
> 4. L' B L B L' R' U' L' / B R B' R' (12)
> ...



i use the same method as david .odder


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## Carrot (Jan 9, 2010)

Brunito said:


> DavidWoner said:
> 
> 
> > 1. B' U B' U R' / B R' B' R (9)
> ...



ohh... it looks like OKA (youtube style) now =D


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## DavidWoner (Jan 10, 2010)

Odder said:


> EDIT: just tried your solutions... AWESOME!!! =D it's some variant of the polish V? O____o



I just do w/e looks good to get down to last 3 edges. These just looked a bit easier with Oka-style start, although I don't fingertrick it Oka-style and I do tips at the end still. I don't know, these scrambles felt easy, I think my normal movecount it probably 13 or so.


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## Carrot (Jan 12, 2010)

DavidWoner said:


> Odder said:
> 
> 
> > EDIT: just tried your solutions... AWESOME!!! =D it's some variant of the polish V? O____o
> ...



hehe.. ofc they felt easy xD I took my best average of 12 in a session of about 50  

I don't know why people chose my scrambles xD (because you guys are too lazy? hehe )

okay to be serious... I actually also made up a method for pyraminx (old one) that has a maximum move count of: 3 + 6 + 7 = 16... and I guess average is 2.5 + 3 + 5 = 10.5... which is pretty awesome... the problem is that I never seem to find the optimal solution from the last case... but the move count for the last step is only a guess... so I might be wrong...


but for people who wanna know it:
solve a 1x2x1 block
solve bad edges
solve the rest 2-gen..

The story behind this method:
I wanted a method that ALWAYS gave you an extended-flower/mistubishi/something, that why I build the block... and with a maximum of 3 moves (I think so... but if you can find a situation where you can't do it in less than 4 moves I would be very happy =) )... 
Then I thought... gosh... I hate to do LL -.-' So I thought, why not just solve bad edges... then you also restrict it to 2-gen? huh? xD
And then I got like... NO!!! you can still get a sune... Then I realized that you by solving one of the top edges and then solve the bottom you will always get LL skip... well... not "optimal" but it's indeed not a bad method for fewest moves...

I made this method up in like 10 minutes =) (I call it FMC or Petrus Style  )

Could anyone else please try this method and/or tell me if my move-counts is correct for this method?


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## miniGOINGS (Jan 12, 2010)

http://www.speedsolving.com/wiki/index.php/Pyraminx_Methods said:


> Petrus
> Step 1: Create a 'block' by matching one edge to the two adjacent corners, and also fixing those two tips.
> Step 2: Orient the remaining edges, Petrus-style, so that they can all be solved using only U and R turns.
> Step 3: Finish all of the edges using only U and R turns, then fix the last two tips on the U and R corners.


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## fanwuq (Jan 12, 2010)

Odder, you never heard of this method before? Tim Sun was using this over 2 years ago. The only problem I see with it is that the bad edges are a bit hard to recognize.


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## miniGOINGS (Jan 12, 2010)

fanwuq said:


> Odder, you never heard of this method before? Tim Sun was using this over 2 years ago. The only problem I see with it is that the bad edges are a bit hard to recognize.



Yea, the only thing I could think of would be to have a fixed colour scheme. That might help with EO.


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## Carrot (Jan 13, 2010)

hehe... I have never went to any websites to find any pyraminx methods =) so nope... I didn't know that it was a widely known method x'D

For miniGOINGS and Fanwuq... By this thread I'm not searching for a speed method but an optimal method... and I know that this method sucks for reckognition... but it has got a low movecount hehe =D


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## Swordsman Kirby (Jan 13, 2010)

fanwuq said:


> Odder, you never heard of this method before? Tim Sun was using this over 2 years ago. The only problem I see with it is that the bad edges are a bit hard to recognize.



lolbadedges


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## fanwuq (Jan 14, 2010)

Swordsman Kirby said:


> lolbadedges



Odder said "solve bad edges" first, and I don't see what's so wrong with it. What's so objectionable about calling something a "bad edge"? What would be the proper technical term?


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## miniGOINGS (Jan 14, 2010)

I too am not sure what that comment insinuates...


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## Swordsman Kirby (Jan 14, 2010)

fanwuq said:


> Swordsman Kirby said:
> 
> 
> > lolbadedges
> ...



Well basically, I don't really suggest doing bad edges... to me, doing L4E is better in terms of recognition. If I recall correctly, it has about the same move count.


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## cubedude456 (Jan 29, 2010)

What type of Pyraminx are you using


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## Carrot (Feb 1, 2010)

cubedude456 said:


> What type of Pyraminx are you using



learn2read the topic =D

btw.

I think I have a method that is even closer to Optimal than WO ^^ does anyone master the polish V method? it would be nice to see an average with that!! =D


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## DavidWoner (Feb 1, 2010)

I wouldn't say I've mastered it, but I use it sometimes. I tried to work out a system for recognizing l3e but it didn't really work.


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## flee135 (Feb 1, 2010)

Odder said:


> I think I have a method that is even closer to Optimal than WO ^^ does anyone master the polish V method? it would be nice to see an average with that!! =D



How does Polish V work?


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## Carrot (Feb 1, 2010)

DavidWoner said:


> I wouldn't say I've mastered it, but I use it sometimes. I tried to work out a system for recognizing l3e but it didn't really work.



well you does atleast know the cases better than I do =) I definitely think you should do an average with polish V.. =) I really want to see how well it is in FMC =)

David, I'm expecting to see an average with polish V very soon 


fleex135: http://www.mzrg.com/rubik/solving/pyraminx/index.html


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## flee135 (Feb 1, 2010)

Odder said:


> fleex135: http://www.mzrg.com/rubik/solving/pyraminx/index.html



Oh ok. I just call this L4E. I memorized about 2/3 of this before for speedsolving, but I gave up towards the end because I didn't think I'd get very fast with it. I'm not sure about its potential for fewest moves, though.


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## DavidWoner (Feb 2, 2010)

Most of the cases are intuitive. Most of the time I do V, place back edge(aka build WO-style first layer) with R U' R' etc or with R' L R L' if its flipped, then L3E. Unless I get 2 flip or "Uperm" for l3e it is basically the optimal l4e case.


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## Carrot (Feb 2, 2010)

DavidWoner said:


> Most of the cases are intuitive. Most of the time I do V, place back edge(aka build WO-style first layer) with R U' R' etc or with R' L R L' if its flipped, then L3E. Unless I get 2 flip or "Uperm" for l3e it is basically the optimal l4e case.



bahh... but you could still give it a try? right? =D


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## Tim Major (Feb 2, 2010)

[off-topic/] Ok, so my forcing ll skip with lbl seems to be actually Polish V, so I'm wanting to learn either Oka's method, or WO. Where can I learn these. Thanks, this seemed like the best place, because the fast pyra solvers seem to be browsing this thread. I am wanting sub 7, and I have slow turning.[off-topic]


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## Carrot (Feb 2, 2010)

ZB_FTW!!! said:


> [off-topic/] Ok, so my forcing ll skip with lbl seems to be actually Polish V, so I'm wanting to learn either Oka's method, or WO. Where can I learn these. Thanks, this seemed like the best place, because the fast pyra solvers seem to be browsing this thread. I am wanting sub 7, and I have slow turning.[off-topic]



I would suggest learning Oka... I haven't watched any videos with these method so I'm afraid that I can't give you the "best" link, but if you search "Oka method" on youtube you have lots of guides =)

WO is not easy to be good at :/ because if you want to master it you have to know tricks from polish V, Oka (both Oka style and Yotube style) and look-a-like methods =)

but to show you the steps:

OKA(youtube style):
* 2 edges surrounding a "center" ( we call it this center the top)
* bottom "centers" (and tips?)
* last top edge with something like R L R' L' 
* bottom edges

possible optimizations: solve the centers in an order so the last edge will end in your front...

Extreme optimizations: put one of the top edges wrong in first step... and in third step solve restore the top with R U R' (OKA style! =D)

WO:
* Top edges
* Bottom centers with something like L R L R' L'
* bottom edges

possible optimizations: solve the top edges in a way that solves the bottom centers

Extreme Optimizations: solve the last bottom center/top edges in a way that gives you an easy LL case... (I don't do this that much )

[/off-topic]
[even more off-topic]
OFF-TOPIC:
I would be happy if someone made a video tutorial with WO =D

[/even more off-topic]


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## Faz (Feb 5, 2010)

Ok, I'm averaging about 8 seconds using intuitive forced LL skips. I think trying to work out where to put the back edge, and which edge it is, is really slowing me down. I average about 3 seconds for the V (with tips) Is that ok?

Any tips for recognising the last step? Or does it just come with practice?


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## Carrot (Feb 5, 2010)

fazrulz said:


> Ok, I'm averaging about 8 seconds using intuitive forced LL skips. I think trying to work out where to put the back edge, and which edge it is, is really slowing me down. I average about 3 seconds for the V (with tips) Is that ok?
> 
> Any tips for recognising the last step? Or does it just come with practice?



well 3 seconds for V and tips is not bad =) (I guess ) I spend 1+ second for tips xD or something like that 

and for the last step it all comes with practise =) it so much reminds me about Tomasz Kiedrowicz who thought that there was MAXIMUM 10 cases for the last 4 edges xD


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## ribonzz (Feb 18, 2010)

I never tried pyraminx, but i think that is interesting, and hard


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## Faz (Feb 19, 2010)

ribonzz said:


> I never tried pyraminx, but i think that is interesting, and *hard*



>_>


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## Neo63 (Feb 19, 2010)

hmm is Oka/WO necessary for sub-5? I use LBL and I get sub-6 sometimes, and tips take me like 1.5 secs >.>

video: http://www.speedsolving.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19265 

any tip is welcome


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## RyanO (Feb 19, 2010)

Neo63 said:


> hmm is Oka/WO necessary for sub-5? I use LBL and I get sub-6 sometimes, and tips take me like 1.5 secs >.>
> 
> video: http://www.speedsolving.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19265
> 
> any tip is welcome



Are you asking about sub 5 singles or averages? I use LBL and I get sub 5 singles quite regularly. Only 3 people have official sub 5 averages, so that is going to be very hard with any method.


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## ribonzz (Feb 19, 2010)

Haha.. I see my friend playing pyraminx, and he's too dumb to finished it, just like me


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## Carrot (Feb 22, 2010)

Neo63 said:


> hmm is Oka/WO necessary for sub-5? I use LBL and I get sub-6 sometimes, and tips take me like 1.5 secs >.>
> 
> video: http://www.speedsolving.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19265
> 
> any tip is welcome



1) Oka/WO is not necessary at all to get sub 5.. the 3rd and 4th place on the WR list average uses Polish V, Simon Westlund uses LBL the same does Piotr Kozka 

2) ehhm... don't pause xD just solve


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## Tim Major (Apr 2, 2010)

Ok, I have managed to get my move count way down in the last day, because I have started making my V using oka style (kinda, 2 edges on a corner, then orient two other corners for the V). I'm getting quite a few sub 10 movecounts (excluding tips) and my V is way more optimal now. I used to orient 3 corners, then insert two edges into it, to make the V lbl style. Odder, when you use Polish V, how do you usually make your V?

Edit: And other people as well?

Edit 2:


Odder said:


> 1. 10[8] B L B' R' U L' B' R'
> 2. (7[7]) U' L R U' L' R L'
> 3. 9[7] L' R B' U R' B' L
> 4. 8[8] R' U' L R' B L' U' L'
> ...


4, 5, 5, 6, (1), 6, 3, 4, 5, 5, (8), 5 = 4.80 average for V. I don't know all cases so I couldn't do full solve really, but http://www.mzrg.com/rubik/solving/pyraminx/index.html says part two has a 6.71 average move count, so my solve average (a bit rough because I might have had a higher average move count for second part, or lower) was 11.51.


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## Luigimamo (Apr 2, 2010)

my brother thinks he can solve a pyraminx because i gave him a case with like 3 moves


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## Carrot (Apr 4, 2010)

ZB_FTW!!! said:


> Ok, I have managed to get my move count way down in the last day, because I have started making my V using oka style (kinda, 2 edges on a corner, then orient two other corners for the V). I'm getting quite a few sub 10 movecounts (excluding tips) and my V is way more optimal now. I used to orient 3 corners, then insert two edges into it, to make the V lbl style. Odder, when you use Polish V, how do you usually make your V?
> 
> Edit: And other people as well?
> 
> ...



1) I don't use polish V, and if I do I solve the V VERY close to optimal... (MAXIMUM 2 moves more than optimal...)

2) when I do something like the polish V I usually do some actually orient and permute one of the edges (optimal+1-3 moves... which is pretty nice =) )



Luigimamo said:


> my brother thinks he can solve a pyraminx because i gave him a case with like 3 moves



this was relevant because ...?


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## Tim Major (Apr 6, 2010)

Odder said:


> 1) I don't use polish V, and if I do I solve the V VERY close to optimal... (MAXIMUM 2 moves more than optimal...)
> 
> 2) when I do something like the polish V I usually do some actually orient and permute one of the edges (optimal+1-3 moves... which is pretty nice =) )


Can you give a few examples? I don't really understand. Are you basically doing it completely intuitive, with no real structure? Just finding the fastest V you can see, but not following an order of making it? I don't understand >_>


Odder said:


> Luigimamo said:
> 
> 
> > my brother thinks he can solve a pyraminx because i gave him a case with like 3 moves
> ...


Haha


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## Carrot (Apr 6, 2010)

1) U R U' R L' U L
R L' U' L too easy...

2) B' U R' B' U' B L B'
B' U' L' R U

3) R' L' U' R' U L' B
L' B' R' B'

4) U' B' L' U B' U' B' U 
U' L U

5) U R' B' U R B R' B
B U' R B U'
too easy examples >.<


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## riffz (Apr 8, 2010)

Luigimamo said:


> my brother thinks he can solve a pyraminx because i gave him a case with like 3 moves



Cool story bro.


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## Tim Major (Apr 13, 2010)

Odder said:


> 1) U R U' R L' U L
> R L' U' L too easy...
> 
> 2) B' U R' B' U' B L B'
> ...



Wow, I see why I'm slower than you. I really need to start making my V better.


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## Carrot (Apr 13, 2010)

ZB_FTW!!! said:


> Odder said:
> 
> 
> > 1) U R U' R L' U L
> ...



should be working now 

EDIT: Bruno found B' L' R' for scramble 3 :/ so obvious solution lol


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## Owen (Apr 13, 2010)

riffz said:


> Luigimamo said:
> 
> 
> > my brother thinks he can solve a pyraminx because i gave him a case with like 3 moves
> ...



Get it! Cool story *bro*! The story is about his brother!


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## Brute Force (Nov 23, 2011)

14[8]
14[7]
16[7]
17[8]
12[8]
16[8]
12[8]
13[8]
8[8]
9[6]
9[9]
14[8]
avg:15.4...
Two of them are optimal!
My method is basically Oka, but a little different in the first step.


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## u Cube (Feb 27, 2019)

1. B L B' R' U L' B' R' solved in 18 moves
2. U' L R U' L' R L' 15
3. L' R B' U R' B' L 20
4. R' U' L R' B L' U' L' 13
5. U B' U B' R' U' B' U 9
6. B U' L B' L B R' L' 20
7.R' U L' B R U' L U 18
8. U L' R' U B U R' L 19
9. ] U L B' R' U B' L U 14
10. L R U' L B U' 17
11. U B R' B' R L' B L' R 18 
12. B L' B U' L B U' L 21

Keep in mind these are my speed solve move counts and not pyra fmc


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## WoowyBaby (Feb 27, 2019)

If anyone’s wondering, the average movecount for optimal solves is *7.7955 moves* (plus 2.666.. incl tips).
If anyone solves it (excl tips) in under 12 moves on average then that would be very efficient. I take like 18-20 moves on average during solves lol.


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