# Earthlings



## F.P. (Jan 9, 2009)

Just wondering if anyone here has seen this movie...

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6361872964130308142



"EARTHLINGS is a feature length documentary about humanity's absolute dependence on animals (for pets, food, clothing, entertainment, and scientific research) but also illustrates our complete disrespect for these so-called "non-human providers." The film is narrated by Academy Award nominee Joaquin Phoenix (GLADIATOR) and features music by the critically acclaimed platinum artist Moby ."


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## Samlambert (Jan 10, 2009)




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## Sir E Brum (Jan 10, 2009)

Samlambert said:


>



Wonderful picture. LOLOL


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## toast (Jan 10, 2009)

That video is depressing.


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## F.P. (Jan 10, 2009)

Seriously, you guys (Sam/Sir) are disgusting.


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## Faz (Jan 10, 2009)

F.P. I'm not sure if i should tell you this because ethan will get mad at me xD. But in a chatroom ethan dared someone to reply with that picture.


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## Kenneth (Jan 10, 2009)

What to do, you cannot eat dust and sand, you have to accept killing or die yorself.

Vegetarians, don't try it on me, you are killing plants and I love plants (like always walk on the path and not on the side to avoid to step on pretty plants), and I cant imagine how many small animals, bugs and snails and so you are eating with your sallat.


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## IamWEB (Jan 10, 2009)

Kenneth said:


> What to do, you cannot eat dust and sand, you have to accept killing or die yorself.
> 
> Vegetarians, don't try it on me, you are killing plants and I love plants (like always walk on the path and not on the side to avoid to step on pretty plants), and I cant imagine how many small animals, bugs and snails and so you are eating with your sallat.



Spongebob: What's a sal-lat?



lol, no one cleans their food enymor, write?


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## Pietersmieters (Jan 10, 2009)

Samlambert said:


>



you remind me of Hairy Woman


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## F.P. (Jan 10, 2009)

Kenneth said:


> What to do, you cannot eat dust and sand, you have to accept killing or die yorself.
> 
> Vegetarians, don't try it on me, you are killing plants and I love plants (like always walk on the path and not on the side to avoid to step on pretty plants), and I cant imagine how many small animals, bugs and snails and so you are eating with your sallat.




So, you think plants are equal to animals?
And the main point is not the killing itself, it's more about the "how"; did you watch the movie? or any other movie about this topic? probably read any books about it?

It really doesn't have to be that way; but looking at this picture posted above - it just reminds me again that the humans are the worst animals.

Irony is...most people can't get even through such a movie; they prefer posting anti-PETA pics without even knowing what they are talking about and eating their substandard meat while having a cat or a dog as a pet.

I didn't expect to get such ignorant responses in from users of this board (not meaning you Kenneth).


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## d4m4s74 (Jan 10, 2009)

I've seen the first part (I don't have 2 hours, I'll watch the whole thing later)
I'd say, true, humans abuse their power over animals, but that's how nature intended it, Humans eat animals eat other animals eat other animals eat other animals eat humans eat other animals etc.
the circle of life.

but we also keep animals for other reasons, enjoyment, fun, and we're the only ones who do it, and that's not natural.

I won't stop eating meat or having pets or laughing about zippocat, but the documentary seems interesting
__________________
A cow would have nothing to do if it wasn't getting eaten or milked. They'd just stand around and look dumb. - Some kid


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## F.P. (Jan 10, 2009)

d4m4s74 said:


> I won't stop eating meat or having pets or laughing about zippocat, but the documentary seems interesting



What's funny about a cat being burned alive?


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## d4m4s74 (Jan 10, 2009)

F.P. said:


> d4m4s74 said:
> 
> 
> > I won't stop eating meat or having pets or laughing about zippocat, but the documentary seems interesting
> ...



other people's reactions

I don't laugh about the video/thumbnail strip, I laugh at how people react when I mention it

just like people enjoy shock video reactions on youtube


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## F.P. (Jan 10, 2009)

Do you also laugh at the reactions of people when they see the recent Nazi-beheading in russia?


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## d4m4s74 (Jan 10, 2009)

if they know what they where going to see and still scream like school girls, yes

online /me is a sadistic *******, and proud of it, but IRL I'm a nice person

where there any recent nazi beheadings in russia?
google time


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## bichettereds (Jan 10, 2009)

I dont care how many videos you show me of ****ed up people doing cruel things to animals. Nature is cruel. We are no worse than any other animal. Of course there are alot of messed up people out there but that doesnt mean Im gonna stop hunting, fishing, having pets or eating meat. I also think animal testing is necessary most of the time.

Heres alittle something for all you PETA lovers

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsHUBEfBNMo


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## Johannes91 (Jan 10, 2009)

d4m4s74 said:


> online /me is a sadistic *******, and proud of it


Why is this "online /you" proud of it?


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## F.P. (Jan 10, 2009)

bichettereds said:


> I dont care how many videos you show me of ****ed up people doing cruel things to animals. Nature is cruel. We are no worse than any other animal. Of course there are alot of messed up people out there but that doesnt mean Im gonna stop hunting, fishing, having pets or eating meat. I also think animal testing is necessary most of the time.
> 
> Heres alittle something for all you PETA lovers
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsHUBEfBNMo




You can't be serious...nature might be cruel...but that's not even near the stuff we do. For us, it's not about survival and actually we do have a choice and a lot of options.

And I wonder what all of that has to do with PETA anyway.
Seriously, not everyone who is concerned about animals is a militant vegan, planning attacks on slaughterhouses.

The rearing of animals is a waste of ressources - a huge waste. 
Also, we don't need any animal products to survive...so why do you think that it's just "natural" that people eat meat?
Actually eating meat is quite unhealthy...but that's not the topic of discussion.

If animal testing is necessary, why are there so many products out there, which weren't tested by animals?
If stupid people need a billion different vanishing cremes and cosmetic products then well...it should be tested on them and not the animals. 

Not to mention that it's possible to get nearly every product from labels which don't do animal tests...it's just that those products are way more expensive (they have to be)...and that shows a lot.

Thinking of animals being supposed to serve us superior human beings is quite stupid.

And what's that video you posted supposed to tell me now? That I'm right I guess, huh?


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## Kenneth (Jan 10, 2009)

F.P. said:


> So, you think plants are equal to animals?



Not sure, I don't get any type of communication or interaction with plants as I do with animals so I can't judge really. But just in case...



F.P. said:


> It really doesn't have to be that way; but looking at this picture posted above - it just reminds me again that the humans are the worst animals.



We are not animals, we are humans. Sapiens emerged from earlier spices that was social, had fire, tools, rulers, slaves and everything, we where newer "animals" and they was not either, you have to go back millions of yerars to find a humanoid that was an animal.


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## d4m4s74 (Jan 10, 2009)

Johannes91 said:


> d4m4s74 said:
> 
> 
> > online /me is a sadistic *******, and proud of it
> ...


On a few websites I frequent (I won't say any because I don't want to scare you) sadism, teasing others, "trolling" is the standard, people take on another personality and name there.

before 2003 people would call it multiple personality disorder, today it's called anonymous



I'm the "IRL me" here, so don't worry about me filling up the site with gore

but now let's get back to discussing the documentary


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## Odin (Jan 10, 2009)

I think we should get this thread closed... before something bad happens


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## d4m4s74 (Jan 10, 2009)

Odin said:


> I think we should get this thread closed... before something bad happens



nah, it's all intelligent discussions


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## Dene (Jan 10, 2009)

Kenneth said:


> What to do, you cannot eat dust and sand, you have to accept killing or die yorself.
> 
> Vegetarians, don't try it on me, you are killing plants and I love plants (like always walk on the path and not on the side to avoid to step on pretty plants), and I cant imagine how many small animals, bugs and snails and so you are eating with your sallat.



This is exactly what I think. A while back I wrote an argument against vegetarianism, unfortunately it is on my other computer.

What gives humans the right to kill plants as if they are inferior. Is it Aristotle? Is it because he thought plants were in a different subgroup to animals (because they were incapable of self-movement)?

This view is just silly. We have to eat to survive. Plants are no different to animals, if you kill a plant you are still taking a life. Therefore you may as well eat meat because it tastes better.


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## Kian (Jan 10, 2009)

that video makes me want a double cheeseburger.


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## fanwuq (Jan 10, 2009)

Dene said:


> Kenneth said:
> 
> 
> > What to do, you cannot eat dust and sand, you have to accept killing or die yorself.
> ...



I agree
I was writing a fiction about how tobacco reads the mind of its smokers. The living tobacco plants are ancestor worshipers so they gain the memories of the ones already smoked. Then one day, they gained awesome event probability manipulation techniques from a crazy scientist. They used it to increase their likelihood to evolve more awesome abilities. Then, they took over the world.  I got stuck at page 3. I like short stories. Writing a novel is boring.
LOL. I'm paranoid about plants reading my mind, so I don't smoke. If it's some vegetables, not tobacco that have this ability, then that really sucks.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17Wt2iH5kxc&feature=channel_page


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## bichettereds (Jan 10, 2009)

F.P. said:


> You can't be serious...nature might be cruel...but that's not even near the stuff we do. For us, it's not about survival and actually we do have a choice and a lot of options.
> 
> And I wonder what all of that has to do with PETA anyway.
> Seriously, not everyone who is concerned about animals is a militant vegan, planning attacks on slaughterhouses.
> ...



So should we stop eating honey because theyre cruel to bees? Non-human animals are no different than insects and insects are no different than plants. You just identify more with dogs and cats than you do with fish, beetles or sunflowers. 

I cant believe you actually think its unnatural to eat meat. Thats funny. 

"Thinking of animals being supposed to serve us superior human beings is quite stupid."

Are you against using dogs to help blind people? 

Apparantley you didnt watch the video which I posted a link to. PETA=Bullsh*t.

Heres a short list of procedures, vaccines and cures developed in the 20th century from medical research on animals:

Vaccines-
Antrhax, Chicken Pox, Colera, Diphtheria, Flu, Influenza B, Hepatitis A and B, Measles, Mumps, Polio, Rabies, Rubella, Smallpox, Tetanus, Whooping Cough, Yellow Fever

Medications-
Insulin, Penicillin, Streptomycin, Anti-inflammatory Drugs, Pain Killers, Anticoagulants, Chemotherapy, Cyclosporine

Devices-
Pacemakers, Artificial Heart, Artificial Hip, Artificial Knee

Procedures-
Angioplasty, Organ Transplantation




Kenneth said:


> We are not animals, we are humans. Sapiens emerged from earlier spices that was social, had fire, tools, rulers, slaves and everything, we where newer "animals" and they was not either, you have to go back millions of yerars to find a humanoid that was an animal.




Humans differ from other animals in terms of intelligence, however, from a biological perspective humans are classified as animals! We are members of the Animalia Kingdom, therefore, are animals. The word animal is just often used in a way that makes a distinction between humans and other organisms.


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## d4m4s74 (Jan 10, 2009)

Humans are made to eat meat, if we were made as herbivores we wouldn't have canines


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## toast (Jan 10, 2009)

But as humans, we have a more complex sense of feelings.
I don't mind killing animals for food and stuff, but keeping intelligent animals, such as dogs or cats, in small cages for their whole life is just ridiculous. 
But then again, other people in other parts of the world also have problems, like starvation or being homeless. I don't see why we aren't doing much to help the people in need.


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## F.P. (Jan 11, 2009)

The insects nerve system isn't even developed enough to create e.g. pain.

You really think that by watching your comedy youtube video you know enough about this organisation?
Still I don't even know why you guys mentioned PETA.

And as I said earlier, it's not about killing itself, it's about the "how" and 
especially "what's needed" and "what's not".

There is a little difference between someone who doesn't have anything else to eat and therefore kills an animal with his own hands and is thankful to eat it because otherwise he would die and the rearing of certain types of animals under very bad conditions, pumped full with hormones and overall unhealthy just because people want more for less money...and most of it gets thrown away anyway; the ocean is full with it.
And then they wonder why they get sick, wonder about loss of ressources and why more and more people seem to get (different forms) of cancer.



And what do you think where all these diseases come from and why they develop over time?
Also you should get some decent information about the pharma industry/pharmaceutical companies.


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## bichettereds (Jan 11, 2009)

Im having lobster for dinner. How long should I boil him alive?


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## pcharles93 (Jan 11, 2009)

bichettereds said:


> Im having lobster for dinner. How long should I boil him alive?



Until he dies...


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## bichettereds (Jan 11, 2009)

is that when he stops screaming?


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## Dene (Jan 11, 2009)

F.P. said:


> And then they wonder why they get sick, wonder about loss of ressources and why more and more people seem to get (different forms) of cancer.



It turns out cancer existed before we started playing with our food.


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## Musselman (Jan 11, 2009)

F.P.

you coming in here trying to change minds isnt going to do anything for anyone. i know you just came here to tell people about this movie, but dude come on shut up. you cant change peoples minds just because you don't agree with them. they will change, because they want to change, not because of you.

your really going nowhere with these guys, cause they don't give a ****. if they want to eat meat, then they're going to, you cant change that.

sure you want people to change for the better, but this is the way that people do it, and its been going strong for a long time now, and don't see it stopping anytime soon.

idk, i could keep going, but its like 2am


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## jackolanternsoup (Jan 11, 2009)

The food part is disturbing.


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## F.P. (Jan 11, 2009)

Dene said:


> F.P. said:
> 
> 
> > And then they wonder why they get sick, wonder about loss of ressources and why more and more people seem to get (different forms) of cancer.
> ...



It turns out there are certain parts of the world where a few types of cancer don't even exist because the people eat different stuff.
You know that cancer rates would decrease drastically if we would stop eating meat, right?


I didn't want to change anyones mind; actually I only posted a link to a movie which anyone could (should) be interested since it affects all of us.
If some guys here don't know anything better than posting disgusting pictures, making fun of it while they probably couldn't even watch the whole movie and start talking crap about some organisation which actually doesn't even have to do anything with that...then sorry that I'm trying to make my point clear.


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## vi (Jan 11, 2009)

I agree with you F.P., it's ok to eat meat, but it should only be done when necessary. As for animal testing, that's always unfair and "wrong", but we do it anyway if the results produce something important that can help others (medicine, vaccine). Killing animals to produce cosmetics is something beyond my understanding, but it's all about where to draw the line.. As the dominant species on earth it's shameful how we humans sometimes behave.

But it's really pointless to discuss this here, most of the comments are just meant to **** you off and the discussion is not going to change peoples minds. Some of the posters will change their minds as they get a bit older (I did), others will not, not much to do about that.

However, those who claim to be carnivorous killing machines made by nature, when was the last time you killed an animal with your bare hands and ate it's raw flesh?

I'm not a vegetarian because I love animals, but because I hate plants!


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## d4m4s74 (Jan 11, 2009)

vi said:


> However, those who claim to be carnivorous killing machines made by nature, when was the last time you killed an animal with your bare hands and ate it's raw flesh?



when was the last time a zoo lion or pet dog killed another animal to eat it's flesh?
We stopped killing with our bare hands and eating raw flesh when we got better alternatives.

Also, we're not carnivorous killing machines, we're omnivorous eating machines who kill when it's needed

(ancient human beings had a diet with just 5 to 10% meat, so we could eat a little less meat)


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## vi (Jan 11, 2009)

d4m4s74 said:


> when was the last time a zoo lion or pet dog killed another animal to eat it's flesh?
> We stopped killing with our bare hands and eating raw flesh when we got better alternatives.



That's an interesting point, wild lions and dogs do kill other animals and eat their flesh, yet the same animals don't when under the control of humans. Why is that? Because they got better alternatives? Is being kept in a zoo a better alternative? I think it's because they're in a very unnatural environment!



d4m4s74 said:


> Also, we're not carnivorous killing machines, we're omnivorous eating machines who kill when it's needed
> 
> (ancient human beings had a diet with just 5 to 10% meat, so we could eat a little less meat)



Very true, and that's kind of my point, the question is: when is it needed? However, a lot of people claim to be natural carnivores and should therefore almost exclusively eat meat!


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## F.P. (Jan 11, 2009)

Well...people living vegetarian or vegan for years doesn't cause any problems.

Imagine someone would eat meat only...for a month.

The way the majority of the people is consuming meat is unhealthy, just as the way we are consuming sugar nowadays is unhealthy.
Our bodies aren't made for that; sugar wasn't even popular about 200 years ago.


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## Dene (Jan 11, 2009)

Firstly: without meat, the brains of monkeys would not have had the protein necessary to develop into human brains. Thus without meat we wouldn't exist.
Secondly: being a vegetarian does cause problems unless you carefully watch what you eat. For example, my sister is a vegetarian, and has to take iron pills to keep up her iron levels. I don't need to take a pill.
Thirdly: I don't know how sugar comes into this; sugar isn't meat.
vi: Where do you come off saying we are "the dominant species on Earth". Who says we are? Define dominant, and then defend that view. I bet that you can't.
F.P. Where is your proof that cancer rates would decrease without eating meat, and then prove that not eating meat will not cause any other problems. (Note, I already mentioned a problem, so good luck with that).


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## Odin (Jan 11, 2009)

I agree with Dene, without meat we wouldent be here. But once again i would perfer this thread to be closed.


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## F.P. (Jan 11, 2009)

Dene said:


> Firstly: without meat, the brains of monkeys would not have had the protein necessary to develop into human brains. Thus without meat we wouldn't exist.
> Secondly: being a vegetarian does cause problems unless you carefully watch what you eat. For example, my sister is a vegetarian, and has to take iron pills to keep up her iron levels. I don't need to take a pill.
> Thirdly: I don't know how sugar comes into this; sugar isn't meat.
> vi: Where do you come off saying we are "the dominant species on Earth". Who says we are? Define dominant, and then defend that view. I bet that you can't.
> F.P. Where is your proof that cancer rates would decrease without eating meat, and then prove that not eating meat will not cause any other problems. (Note, I already mentioned a problem, so good luck with that).




For how long did your sister eat meat before she started eating vegetarian?
(so, if your sister really has a problem with iron, then it's because she consumed meat before; and well...I doubt she has a problem; having an iron level below the average is rather positive than anything else; majority of the people on this planet is unhealthy).

Because consuming meat over a certain time makes the body unable to gain iron from plants.
And the general iron level, which most doctors will tell/recommend you, is way too high since it's adjusted to a society which consumes meat.
Meat contains too much iron, so the body will downgrade the function to absorb iron in order to protect itself (hence the point I mentioned before).

If she would eat meat in order to have a higher iron level (which in most cases isn't necessary anyway) it would just make her digestion even worse.
And she would have to eat more and more meat to achieve the iron level she wants.


At least one third of the cancer cases (in the US) is caused by bad nutrition.
The more meat you eat, the higher is the risk that you get cancer; if you eat meat, the risk that you get cancer is about 40% higher (compared to a vegetarian).

Also, if you have cancer, one of the first things most doctors will tell you is to stop eating meat or at least drastically increase the amount of meat you consume.

Vegan food contains way more anti-cancer substances than anything else; WHO (World Health Organisation) says that about 40% of all cancer cases could be avoided.


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## Escher (Jan 11, 2009)

Dene said:


> Firstly: without meat, the brains of monkeys would not have had the protein necessary to develop into human brains. Thus without meat we wouldn't exist.
> Secondly: being a vegetarian does cause problems unless you carefully watch what you eat. For example, my sister is a vegetarian, and has to take iron pills to keep up her iron levels. I don't need to take a pill.
> Thirdly: I don't know how sugar comes into this; sugar isn't meat.
> vi: Where do you come off saying we are "the dominant species on Earth". Who says we are? Define dominant, and then defend that view. I bet that you can't.
> F.P. Where is your proof that cancer rates would decrease without eating meat, and then prove that not eating meat will not cause any other problems. (Note, I already mentioned a problem, so good luck with that).



dene, you know that one example isnt really enough to demonstrate your point about the vegetarian diet.
a majority of my close friends are vegetarian. i can think of at least 15 people in my social group that are vegetarian. _none_ of these need to take any supplements, and ALL of which are healthy and slim (and very few of which take more exercise than walking to school). 
my dad is a vegan, and is also allergic to nuts. however, on a recent trip to the gym, they said that he was remarkably healthy for someone that took such little exercise.

therefore I believe that the average vegetarian diet is actually healthier than the average omnivorous.

if all the vegetarian diet was eating a meat based dish, but without the meat, then obviously that would be unhealthy.
but when you adopt a vegetarian diet, you usually/generally make a conscious effort to eat more varied (and consequentially healthier) foods.

even if it meat was essential previously to the development of big brains, it isn't now - you can get just as much protein from other foods as you get in meat, without the fat that comes with it. consider that nowadays you can get food from all across the world relatively cheaply.

on an environmental level, being vegetarian is better - taking that extra step out of the food chain is obviously more energy efficient (and uses far less water), not to mention the extra methane that livestock farming creates, and the great removal of south american rainforest to create fields for livestock.

if the omnivorous diet is done well, then i think that it can be very healthy. if it isnt done well, then its very unhealthy. if the vegetarian diet is done well, then it is just as healthy. if it is done badly, then it is just as unhealthy as the badly done omnivorous. 
my point is that what you choose to eat within your diet makes the real difference, not what diet you choose. 
however, i think that it is easier to offset a lack of certain minerals/vitamins, than to offset too much saturated fat and cholesterol.

the only reason that i am still a vegetarian while i have the opportunity to be a meat eater is the fact that it is more environmentally sound. 
i also find meat repulsive, but thats not exactly a rational argument.

EDIT and woah, FP, read what you just read


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## Escher (Jan 11, 2009)

odin you'RE an idiot.

seriously, pointless flame right there.


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## pcharles93 (Jan 11, 2009)

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned what vegetarians actually do to the environment. What do plants do for us? They change carbon dioxide into oxygen and some fix nitrogen into something useful for us. What do animals do? They make methane, rot very slowly when they die, and put out carbon dioxide every with every single breath. By eating more plants than usual, you're leaving that much more carbon dioxide in the atmosphere that can't be recycled as fast. If you eat meat, you're helping in getting rid of the very creatures that are "destroying our Ozone layer." If everyone ate only non heterotrophic matter, more carbon dioxide and other useless gases expelled by animals. If everyone ate animals, less carbon dioxide and more clean oxygen put out by plants.


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## Escher (Jan 11, 2009)

pcharles93 said:


> I'm surprised that no one has mentioned what vegetarians actually do to the environment. What do plants do for us? They change carbon dioxide into oxygen and some fix nitrogen into something useful for us. What do animals do? They make methane, rot very slowly when they die, and put out carbon dioxide every with every single breath. By eating more plants than usual, you're leaving that much more carbon dioxide in the atmosphere that can't be recycled as fast. If you eat meat, you're helping in getting rid of the very creatures that are "destroying our Ozone layer." If everyone ate only non heterotrophic matter, more carbon dioxide and other useless gases expelled by animals. If everyone ate animals, less carbon dioxide and more clean oxygen put out by plants.



think about what you have just written.


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## d4m4s74 (Jan 11, 2009)

I've heard that if you become a vegetarian you have to eat more beans to keep your iron level up

that might be why hippies stink 



pcharles93 said:


> I'm surprised that no one has mentioned what vegetarians actually do to the environment. What do plants do for us? They change carbon dioxide into oxygen and some fix nitrogen into something useful for us. What do animals do? They make methane, rot very slowly when they die, and put out carbon dioxide every with every single breath. By eating more plants than usual, you're leaving that much more carbon dioxide in the atmosphere that can't be recycled as fast. If you eat meat, you're helping in getting rid of the very creatures that are "destroying our Ozone layer." If everyone ate only non heterotrophic matter, more carbon dioxide and other useless gases expelled by animals. If everyone ate animals, less carbon dioxide and more clean oxygen put out by plants.


but if everyone is vegetarian we wouldn't need cattle, so there would in fact be less carbon-emitting animals, and we could eat the plants the cattle usually eats and don't lower the amount of carbon-removing plants (do you know how many people could live on the corn a cow eats in a year?)


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## Dene (Jan 11, 2009)

Your argument: eating meat is unhealthy.
My response: Wrong.

Perhaps all the fattening pastry that surrounds a pie might be bad for you. But eating a vegetarian pie would be just as bad. The reason vegetarians are enerally healthier is because they have to eat plain salads and the like because all the good food is made with meat. That food also happens to be unhealthy because of the other stuff in it. The meat itself is a good source of protein and other things that are good for development.
I mean, go to McDonald's and eat a vegetarian wrap every day and tell me you're on a healthy diet. You just aren't.

F.P. I still eat ptenty of vegetables. Is this going te help me avoid cancer? If this is the case, then it isn't the meat that is causing problems, but the lack of vegetables.


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## Kyle Barry (Jan 11, 2009)

You have to understand that we don't do things solely to survive anymore. We have advanced far enough that we can have fun and enjoy things. We can all live in a biological suit and eat a perfect diet and never go outside to maximize the length of our lives, but we choose to live differently to maximize quality. I eat meat because it is delicious and it would seriously lower the quality of my life without it. You mentioned that insects can't feel pain, but would you feel bad killing a human who didn't feel pain, (there was a little girl on Oprah like this) of course you would, because you are human and so is she. We naturally care about the lives of other humans and not as much about animals, that's nature, just like every other species in the world does. And the facts were stated before about all the vaccines and medicines that have been developed because of animal testing, and I think, if you care more about animals than humans, you're the sick one.

and about the CO2 argument, it would make sense, but it's now clear that is not effecting us like we thought.


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## vi (Jan 11, 2009)

Dene said:


> vi: Where do you come off saying we are "the dominant species on Earth". Who says we are? Define dominant, and then defend that view. I bet that you can't.



Hi Dene,

This is from the Wiktionary:



Wiktionary said:


> to dominate (third-person singular simple present dominates, present participle dominating, simple past and past participle dominated)
> 
> *1. To govern, rule or control by superior authority or power*
> 2. To exert an overwhelming guiding influence over something or someone
> ...



One might argue that this definition applies to humans as a species. Of course, nobody can say humans have the authority to rule the earth but I'd that we are in the best position to do so (out of the species on earth) and have taken that role anyway.

However, I'm sure others (including yourself, I presume) would choose another word than dominant, but i don't really think that's relevant to this discussion. The bottom line is, humans have a lot of power and it's important that we are careful and selective about how we use that power. 

To quote a good film:



> With great power comes great responsibility


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## F.P. (Jan 11, 2009)

Dene said:


> Your argument: eating meat is unhealthy.
> My response: Wrong.
> 
> Perhaps all the fattening pastry that surrounds a pie might be bad for you. But eating a vegetarian pie would be just as bad. The reason vegetarians are enerally healthier is because they have to eat plain salads and the like because all the good food is made with meat. That food also happens to be unhealthy because of the other stuff in it. The meat itself is a good source of protein and other things that are good for development.
> ...



Vegetarians have to eat plain salads because all the good food is made with meat? 
Are you serious?

And no, it's actually the meat and not the lack of vegetables that makes the risk higher.

Sorry I can't give you any links or something because I usually don't get my information from the internet and it would be on german anyway but google something like "meat cancer" and you should find some information about it (if you want to).

I know where you are coming from with some of the stuff you write though; most vegetarians care more about their healthiness in general, which of course has an influence on certain statistics.


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## F.P. (Jan 11, 2009)

Kyle Barry said:


> You have to understand that we don't do things solely to survive anymore. We have advanced far enough that we can have fun and enjoy things. We can all live in a biological suit and eat a perfect diet and never go outside to maximize the length of our lives, but we choose to live differently to maximize quality. I eat meat because it is delicious and it would seriously lower the quality of my life without it. You mentioned that insects can't feel pain, but would you feel bad killing a human who didn't feel pain, (there was a little girl on Oprah like this) of course you would, because you are human and so is she. We naturally care about the lives of other humans and not as much about animals, that's nature, just like every other species in the world does. And the facts were stated before about all the vaccines and medicines that have been developed because of animal testing, and I think, if you care more about animals than humans, you're the sick one.




Yeah well, I never said something like "stop eating meat or you're gonna get sick". 
I wouldn't kill a human being because I have no reason to do so and because there still is a psychologigal aspect which doesn't have anything to do with feeling pain.
Insects/most animals aren't aware of the self.

I don't really care about other humans lives in general...just like everyone I care mostly about the people near me, I'm related to.
I know that just in this minute there are thousands of kids starving to death, a lot of people dying in something war/industry related etc.
But if I said I would really "care" about that, then that would be hypocritical.

I mean, be honest to yourself.
The death of one person related to you is a disaster, the death of a million people is a statistic.

It's just that way...we don't care for humans in general. Or do you believe that something like altruism really exists?

And about this medicine stuff; as I said before, a lot of the diseases are our own fault; they are just a product of our life-style and the way we have been living on this world and treating the environment.

And especially regarding this topic, the pharma industry is very important.
They are wasting money and energy into research which has already been proved to be going in the completely wrong direction.

As a current example I would like to mention Alzheimer.
They are still selling medicine for it, even though they know that it doesn't help at all and actually only causes more problems because of the side effects.

So, they will research things just for the sake of it and not because they are expecting to be actually progressing...it's all about the money.
But, this seems to be getting pretty off-topic.


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## Kian (Jan 11, 2009)

deleted. not my post.


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## Kyle Barry (Jan 11, 2009)

a lot of the diseases are our own fault; they are just a product of our life-style and the way we have been living on this world and treating the environment."

Are you saying that Antrhax, Chicken Pox, Colera, Diphtheria, Flu, Influenza B, Hepatitis A and B, Measles, Mumps, Polio, Rabies, Rubella, Smallpox, Tetanus, Whooping Cough, Yellow Fever can be attributed to eating meat? or are you just saying it's because of how we live, which wouldnt have anything to do with the meat argument, and honestly, if we brought these on ourselves by living how we want, and now because of these vaccines we can continue to live how we would like, that would be great. And if you don't care about people why would you preach about how much wrong we are doing to animals. And I think most people certainly care about other humans and consider the death of a million a massive tragedy. Of course you care about people close to you much more, but that is a non sequitur to caring about animals more than people.


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## Jude (Jan 11, 2009)

For all of you claiming that all vegetarians don't eat meat for the sole purpose of animal rights, think again. I'm a vegetarian almost purely for environmental reasons. As F.P. says, the rearing and producing of animals is a waste, and in fact animals produce 18% of the world's greenhouse gas emissions, while the global transport industry accounts for 13.5%. It's not just about the methane the animals produce, but also the destruction of carbon-dioxide recycling trees to make room for the rearing of animals and the air miles used distributing the meat.

At Pcharles, what you said makes absolutely no sense at all. Being vegetarian does not reduce the amount of plants in the world, and eating meat increases the number of animals in the world. It's all about supply and demand. The more demand there is for meat, the more animals will be reared and the more animals to contribute to climate change there will be. It works for plants too, the higher demand there is for crops the more there will be grown. Anyway, you also appear to be forgetting that meat-eaters do not live solely off meat, and in fact eat 'plants' all the time aswell.

Don't get me wrong however, it's not _just_ about the environment. The way some companies treat animals is frankly disgusting, especially the way they pump the animals full of chemicals with the only intention of making more money, to buy themselves another mansion or another Porsch or whatever. But then again, these problems could be solved by boycotting the companies without being vegetarian. I'd be just as likely to buy a salad wrap from McDonalds as I would to buy a burger. 

Yeah, so eating a little meat every now and then could be no problem, but mowing down rainforests and keeping animals cooped up in tiny cages, just for greedy people to feed their hunger for a food not even necessary (things like iron and protein can easily be obtained from other perfectly viable food sources) seems like a pretty pointless idea to me. 

Meh, just my opinion.


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## Kyle Barry (Jan 11, 2009)

Well you should slow down with that because for the past 12 years global temperatures have gone down while CO2 output has increased 4%.


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## Escher (Jan 11, 2009)

Dene said:


> Your argument: eating meat is unhealthy.
> My response: Wrong.
> 
> Perhaps all the fattening pastry that surrounds a pie might be bad for you. But eating a vegetarian pie would be just as bad. The reason vegetarians are enerally healthier is because they have to eat plain salads and the like because all the good food is made with meat. That food also happens to be unhealthy because of the other stuff in it. The meat itself is a good source of protein and other things that are good for development.
> ...



firstly 'all the good food' is totally subjective - i just said that i find meat repulsive, yet kyle barry finds it delicious and it would lower his quality of life without it. thats totally an opinion, and i wouldnt really expect it from you.

my actual argument was that both lifestyles can be healthy, its just that the vegetarian _lifestyle_ lends itself to being healthier. 

the vegetarian _diet_ can quite easily be very unhealthy. i could eat cheese all day every day, and have mcdonalds fries every day. obviously thats incredibly unhealthy, but thats not really what im arguing. 

and why on earth do you think that a vegetarian pie and a meat pie are just as bad as one another? do you know what these meat substitutes are made of? 
and ive heard it argued many, many times that the western diet has too much protein in anyway, regardless of where you get it from!

and to kyle barry, have you heard of global dimming?

EDIT
in addition, just go on any healthy eating website, or calorie counting website, and compare the average burger with a burger from any one of the meat substitute brands. do this with lots of other types of meat. you will find that the meat that is healthier than its substitute is in the vast minority.


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## fanwuq (Jan 11, 2009)

Odin, how is FP an idiot? He made some good arguments to try to persuade people to live healthier. You just made a random rude comment out of nowhere. Also, many idiots can solve the cube, but non can do a 25/25 multiBLD. I think Escher has made some of the best arguments for vegetarianism I’ve ever seen. It’s well written and very convincing. Before, I usually dislike vegetarians because the only argument they can come up with is “look at the poor cute little animals.” I’ll still eat meat, but balance my diet a bit better.


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## Kian (Jan 11, 2009)

deleted. not my post.


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## Kyle Barry (Jan 11, 2009)

Yes but it doesn't hold water in the grand scheme of climate over the past 500 million years. The theory is now that the more crap we put in the air will cool the earth?

Sorry, keep posting on my brother's name.


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## Dene (Jan 11, 2009)

vi said:


> Dene said:
> 
> 
> > vi: Where do you come off saying we are "the dominant species on Earth". Who says we are? Define dominant, and then defend that view. I bet that you can't.
> ...



The thing is, as a general statement, humans do not dominate at all. If anything, bacteria rule over the world.

As for the power that we do have, power over what exactly? The power to stop animals killing each other? The power to supply for ourselves as optimally as possible? The power to serve ourselves? The power to serve the environment? And so on.


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## vi (Jan 12, 2009)

Dene said:


> vi said:
> 
> 
> > Dene said:
> ...



We have a power to do a lot of things, including some of the things you suggested, but to stay on topic I'll focus on the power to control the fate of other species, humans could (and would, if it wasn't for legal restrictions) hunt some animal species to extinction. Humans also control a lot of earths natural resources and could (and quite possibly would, if it wasn't for legal restrictions) render the earth uninhabitable.

But like i said before, the choice of words is not important, I'd say humans are the dominant species but if you don't, it doesn't change a thing regarding our responsibility to treat our environment (including our fellow earthlings) with respect.

Interesting point you make with bacteria though, bacteria certainly have the potential to wipe out the human race, but I wouldn't go as far as saying they rule the world. Humans have developed pretty decent defenses against bacterial outbreaks.


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