# Official confirmation of the removal of Magic and Master Magic events



## Dene (Jul 22, 2012)

Tyson has officially confirmed this, as posted on the WCA forum. 



Tyson said:


> As a result of discussions between the WCA Board and the WCA delegates, the board has decided to remove Magic and Master Magic from the list of WCA sanctioned events at the end of the year 2012. Starting on January 1, 2013, the WCA will no longer accept or sanction events and times for Magic and Master Magic.
> 
> Whereas we realize that many members of our community are extremely dedicated and passionate regarding these events, we have decided to remove them for the following reasons:
> 
> ...



Obviously the last discussion was a mess so let's try and keep this one more civilised.

As for my own personal opinion, I'm happy with this decision. I've been against magics being official events for as long as I can recall, so it's good to finally see this come about.


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## aronpm (Jul 22, 2012)

cool


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## r_517 (Jul 22, 2012)

As an organiser, I'm pleased to see this finally coming true.


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## Sebastien (Jul 22, 2012)

The decision makes me very happy as I'm convinced it is a huge improvement for the WCA.

I feel a little sorry for those who really liked Magics, but the reasoning provided should convince those as well (at least after some time).


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## Ickenicke (Jul 22, 2012)

Really nice. Both reasons are so good!


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## Sa967St (Jul 22, 2012)

I feel really bad for those who were really into Magic and Master Magic, especially since this feels like a sudden decision, but it's clearly for the best and is no way a direct attack on Magic solvers. 

For those who practice Magic a lot and get to compete in Magic/Master Magic before New Years, I hope you have fun and break your PBs.


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## brandbest1 (Jul 22, 2012)

R.I.P magics  2003-2013

I guess I'll be crying during this years new years party...


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## JHB (Jul 22, 2012)

I have been solving the Rubik's Magic since 1986 and have been passionate about it since that time, so of course I'm disappointed. But at least the reasoning the WCA has given is very sound. So I fondly farewell my old friend the Magic.........Damn it!!!!!!!!!!!


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## scylla (Jul 22, 2012)

Now starts the match to be the last person ever solved a magic officially in a WCA tournement. I foresee people traveling to hawaii or something to compete at december 31st 23.59 hour.

serious now, what will happen with existing records and champions at 1-1-2013? Will the current world champion be champions forever,...


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## Ranzha (Jul 22, 2012)

Osweet an official confirmation.
I didn't have the time nor drive to get well acquainted with magics, but for those who were deeply attached to the event, my condolences. I wouldn't doubt that some competitions will still hold magics in 2013 unofficially, and even so, know that the puzzle still exists!
The WCA's reasoning is sound.


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## irontwig (Jul 22, 2012)

feels good man


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## samchoochiu (Jul 22, 2012)

what does it mean when times get archived?


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## Mnts (Jul 22, 2012)

This made me upset


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## Michael Womack (Jul 22, 2012)

Mnts said:


> This made me upset



same with me


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## cityzach (Jul 22, 2012)

Mnts said:


> This made me upset



Same here.


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## Endgame (Jul 22, 2012)

About time <3


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## Iggy (Jul 22, 2012)

cityzach said:


> Same here.



Same here too.


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## antoineccantin (Jul 22, 2012)

Iggy said:


> Same here too.



Same here


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## Owen (Jul 23, 2012)

A shame really.


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## Skullush (Jul 23, 2012)

samchoochiu said:


> what does it mean when times get archived?



The times will still be kept on the WCA website, but they won't be listed.
Similar to Old-style MultiBLD


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## Ernie Pulchny (Jul 23, 2012)

Even though the WCA has a reason to remove Magics, I still think it's stupid. Even after it's removal, I'll still think it's stupid.


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## vcuber13 (Jul 23, 2012)

Ernie Pulchny said:


> Even though the WCA has a reason to remove Magics, I still think it's stupid. Even after it's removal, I'll still think it's stupid.



please, enlighten us why they should keep it.


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## Thompson (Jul 23, 2012)

Ernie Pulchny said:


> Even though the WCA has a reason to remove Magics, I still think it's stupid. Even after it's removal, I'll still think it's stupid.



But dude! If you can maintain your world records then you will be #1 forever!!!!!


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## samchoochiu (Jul 23, 2012)

Skullush said:


> The times will still be kept on the WCA website, but they won't be listed.
> Similar to Old-style MultiBLD


do the times remain on your profile?


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## JasonK (Jul 23, 2012)

Ernie Pulchny said:


> Even though the WCA has a reason to remove Magics, I still think it's stupid. Even after it's removal, I'll still think it's stupid.



This makes no sense to me. If they have a good reason, how is it stupid?


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## antoineccantin (Jul 23, 2012)

samchoochiu said:


> do the times remain on your profile?



No.


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## gogozerg (Jul 23, 2012)

"Lack of puzzle quality"... Of course.
"Difficulty in regulation"... Certainly.

But there's absolutely nothing new.
WCA does not explain why they decided to remove Magic events now.
Did they just realize it is not a puzzle?
Since we cannot reliably time a solve with our timing procedure, the 2^3 event will disappear next?


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## Ernie Pulchny (Jul 23, 2012)

vcuber13 said:


> please, enlighten us why they should keep it.





Thompson said:


> But dude! If you can maintain your world records then you will be #1 forever!!!!!





WTF2L? said:


> This makes no sense to me. If they have a good reason, how is it stupid?



There are some people who can solve a Magic and/or Master Magic, and can't even solve a 3x3. When the WCA removes Magics, those people will lose their chance of competing in those events. Also, I personally think removing Magics is stupid because it's a popular event in the WCA, and doesn't take alot of time. I like the Magics, but it's a shame for Magic and Master Magic lovers like me to know about this. When Magics are gone, people need to start compromising on what events can be good for a competition that doesn't have the Magics.


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## Thepuzzlesolver (Jul 23, 2012)

Ernie Pulchny said:


> Even though the WCA has a reason to remove Magics, I still think it's stupid. Even after it's removal, I'll still think it's stupid.





vcuber13 said:


> please, enlighten us why they should keep it.





WTF2L? said:


> This makes no sense to me. If they have a good reason, how is it stupid?



I can think of a two reasons why, and I know this will add questions too...

1. They can video tape the solves and replay them in slow motion...

a. This can be done during Blind solves due to their massive time
i. This would be done by one or two judges, and other judges would still judge the blind events

b. Could be videotaped by many angles
2. There are a lot of magic solvers, so this would cause more uproar then people unbothered.

I hope competitions still hold it, even if it isn't official. Hopefully, either it will come back or this decision will be a scare to those magic solvers, such as myself, and this won't go through.


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## cityzach (Jul 23, 2012)

Ernie Pulchny said:


> There are some people who can solve a Magic and/or Master Magic, and can't even solve a 3x3. When the WCA removes Magics, those people will lose their chance of competing in those events. Also, I personally think removing Magics is stupid because it's a popular event in the WCA, and doesn't take alot of time. I like the Magics, but it's a shame for Magic and Master Magic lovers like me to know about this. When Magics are gone, people need to start compromising on what events can be good for a competition that doesn't have the Magics.





Thepuzzlesolver said:


> I can think of a two reasons why, and I know this will add questions too...
> 
> 1. They can video tape the solves and replay them in slow motion...
> 
> ...



It sucks that magics are being removed but honestly there's nothing we can do about it. We're powerless. Personally I think our voices should be able to be heard, and if enough people don't want magics to be removed we should keep them. And for the people that really dislike magics for whatever reason, they just shouldn't compete in them.

anyway, I'm obviously really upset that magics are being removed, but since there's nothing that can stop it there's no point in arguing about it...


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## Thepuzzlesolver (Jul 23, 2012)

cityzach said:


> It sucks that magics are being removed but honestly there's nothing we can do about it. We're powerless. Personally I think our voices should be able to be heard, and if enough people don't want magics to be removed we should keep them. And for the people that really dislike magics for whatever reason, they just shouldn't compete in them.
> 
> anyway, I'm obviously really upset that magics are being removed, but since there's nothing that can stop it there's no point in arguing about it...



Agreed, and I'm upset about it too. I agree that we're powerless, I just wish they could hear our voices. After all without us there would be no WCA. This chat will probably fall apart like the other one did...


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## aronpm (Jul 23, 2012)

your'solution' turns a nightmare into the darkest circle of Dante's hell.


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## jonlin (Jul 23, 2012)

antoineccantin said:


> Same here



Same here 
EDIT:
What the **** is Dante's hell?


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## Thepuzzlesolver (Jul 23, 2012)

aronpm said:


> your'solution' turns a nightmare into the darkest circle of Dante's hell.



Explain, it isn't that much work, unless your working on finding every last detail on every last rule.


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## aronpm (Jul 23, 2012)

You have to videotape and analyse each solve...


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## drewsopchak (Jul 23, 2012)

aronpm said:


> You have to videotape and analyse each solve...



What a pain in the arm!


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## Thepuzzlesolver (Jul 23, 2012)

aronpm said:


> You have to videotape and analyse each solve...



Alright, its not that much on small events. I took information from a recent competition 'Raleigh Open 2012' there were 15 magic solvers and 5 master magic solvers, thats 20 people multiply by 5 for the average, and its only 100 solves, and they could do it only on sub-2 or lower, and some people aren't that fast...


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## Skullush (Jul 23, 2012)

Thepuzzlesolver said:


> Alright, its not that much on small events. I took information from a recent competition 'Raleigh Open 2012' there were 15 magic solvers and 5 master magic solvers, thats 20 people multiply by 5 for the average, and its only 100 solves, and they could do it only on sub-2 or lower, and some people aren't that fast...



_Only _100?
Analyzing 100 solves sounds like a major pain. And you can't just only analyze the fast ones.
And that was a relatively small competition. That doesn't mean that we wouldn't have to do this for large competitions too.


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## Thepuzzlesolver (Jul 23, 2012)

Skullush said:


> _Only _100?
> Analyzing 100 solves sounds like a major pain. And you can't just only analyze the fast ones.
> And that was a relatively small competition.



100 solves and multiple judges, 10 judges 10 solves each, I never said it had to be all done by a single person. If that average is kept of 10 solves each, even 1000 which would be an extremely high amount of people for a competition, 100 judges, even if there was only 50 of those more than 200 people its only 20 solves each, It wouldn't take that long to be honest, the high number just makes it seem like it would


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## vcuber13 (Jul 23, 2012)

where are you going to find the time and resources?


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## Skullush (Jul 23, 2012)

Thepuzzlesolver said:


> 100 solves and multiple judges, 10 judges 10 solves each, I never said it had to be all done by a single person. If that average is kept of 10 solves each, even 1000 which would be an extremely high amount of people for a competition, 100 judges, even if there was only 50 of those more than 200 people its only 20 solves each, It wouldn't take that long to be honest, the high number just makes it seem like it would



All those people need to know what their looking for, how to operate whatever software is used to slow down the video, etc.
And we haven't even addressed the cost of getting all this video equipment...
The whole thing is just too complicated to be worth it.


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## Thepuzzlesolver (Jul 23, 2012)

Skullush said:


> All those people need to know what their looking for, how to operate whatever software is used to slow down the video, etc.
> And we haven't even addressed the cost of getting all this video equipment...
> The whole thing is just too complicated to be worth it.


True, it was a raw idea to begin with.... and yeah, now that I think about it is is too complicated and costly


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## MirzaCubing (Jul 23, 2012)

Tim had to judge each person at Raleigh because no one else was qualified. I DNFed my average, and I didn't even realize it myself. I analyzed the video on the way home, and it took FOREVER. I was looking for everything Tim told me, and everything what he told me was true. 100 solves will take a long time to analyze. On top of that, there will always be some type of bias from the analysts, that is, if it's any random competitor or judge. Recording every solve will be hell, and then to slow them down will just be a waste of time. I'm really sad that magics have to go, and what you suggested has a good intention, but the reality of it is that it's nearly impossible to analyze on a large scale, and we'll just have to live with the board's decision.


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## Thepuzzlesolver (Jul 23, 2012)

MirzaCubing said:


> Tim had to judge each person at Raleigh because no one else was qualified. I DNFed my average, and I didn't even realize it myself. I analyzed the video on the way home, and it took FOREVER. I was looking for everything Tim told me, and everything what he told me was true. 100 solves will take a long time to analyze. On top of that, there will always be some type of bias from the analysts, that is, if it's any random competitor or judge. Recording every solve will be hell, and then to slow them down will just be a waste of time. I'm really sad that magics have to go, and what you suggested has a good intention, but the reality of it is that it's nearly impossible to analyze on a large scale, and we'll just have to live with the board's decision.



I realize that, I just hate this extremely. If I ever try to host an event, I will include magic, even if its not official. I probably won't though. I hate this and I wish magic could stay...


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## Skullush (Jul 23, 2012)

I wonder if the WSSA would like to adopt magics. Because they do video analysis, and the concept of magics is pretty similar to sport stacking

Idk, random thought.


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## Thepuzzlesolver (Jul 23, 2012)

Skullush said:


> I wonder is the WSSA would like to adopt magics. Because they do video analysis, and the concept of magics is pretty similar to sport stacking
> 
> Idk, random thought.



If they do I will also practice cup stacking more! I honestly hope they do...


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## TheMachanga (Jul 23, 2012)

Was there another time that WCA removed an event and it was a big deal like this? I don't people cared about rainbow cube but let's see.


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## Bob (Jul 23, 2012)

TheMachanga said:


> Was there another time that WCA removed an event and it was a big deal like this? I don't people cared about rainbow cube but let's see.



No, I think Rainbow cube and Siamese cube were only held at one competition each.


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## cityzach (Jul 23, 2012)

Bob said:


> No, I think Rainbow cube and Siamese cube were only held at one competition each.



Why did they even become official then? And why aren't they still official?


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## Specs112 (Jul 23, 2012)

I think he means that they didn't become official, that one comp did them as a side event because they did what they want.

I'm glad to see Magic go. It's about time.


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## qqwref (Jul 23, 2012)

I hereby announce a mini-challenge to get as many official magic/mastermagic solves as possible. The winner is the one with the most from now until the events are retired.


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## cityzach (Jul 23, 2012)

qqwref said:


> I hereby announce a mini-challenge to get as many official magic/mastermagic solves as possible. The winner is the one with the most from now until the events are retired.



As of right now, I have 30 solves (magic and master magic) to do at JSO, Yale, and Princeton. LSC usually has magics too so that's 40 for me right there.


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## Specs112 (Jul 23, 2012)

qqwref said:


> I hereby announce a mini-challenge to get as many official magic/mastermagic solves as possible. The winner is the one with the most from now until the events are retired.



And then the WCA announces "The Doing As Many Magic Solves As We Can Before The Deadline Championship will take place on December 31, 2012."

(can that actually be a thing please)


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## Thepuzzlesolver (Jul 23, 2012)

Specs112 said:


> And then the WCA announces "The Doing As Many Magic Solves As We Can Before The Deadline Championship will take place on December 31, 2012."
> 
> (can that actually be a thing please)



I hope so, but then again it could be a while away from where people live... For example: China for US solvers or vice-versa....


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## ben1996123 (Jul 23, 2012)

Ernie Pulchny said:


> There are some people who can solve a Magic and/or Master Magic, and can't even solve a 3x3. When the WCA removes Magics, those people will lose their chance of competing in those events.



Good. If they can't solve a cube, then they shouldn't compete in competitions.


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## insane569 (Jul 23, 2012)

Well its sad to see something I never got a chance to compete in go, but hey, now I get more time in competition to do other things.


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## samchoochiu (Jul 23, 2012)

For starters, I do like magic. However I do understand Tyson's points and yes they are valid points. My concern now is that the times will be archived, other than that I totally understand of this change. But this was such a problem, why wasn't this handled years ago? Before people began to sub-1 magic and sub-3 on master magic. There are some people that only do magic, for example Takao Hashimoto (great square-1 solver) only does Square-1, magic, and master magic as his main events. Its almost as if the WCA has been leading these people on (although I'm sure that wasn't the intention), people like Ernie and Yuxuan dedicated so much in magics thinking it will be an event that will be around for a long time as it already is. 
Times getting archived really is taking away something from the competitor. In Yuxuan and Ernie's case, is that not taking away an official guiness world record? And for someone like Ernie, Zach, or me these times means something to us and we worked for them. As Stephan Pochman said "its like kicking someone's sand castle". Also I wanted to point out that Tyson's second contention is invalid towards master magic.

Bring on the flames people.


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## uberCuber (Jul 23, 2012)

samchoochiu said:


> There are some people that only do magic, for example Takao Hashimoto (great square-1 solver) only does Square-1, magic, and master magic as his main events.



You say some people only do magic, and then give, as an "example", someone who does something other than magic very well. I'm not even going to bother addressing the rest of your post, I just found this too funny.


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## samchoochiu (Jul 23, 2012)

uberCuber said:


> You say some people only do magic, and then give, as an "example", someone who does something other than magic very well. I'm not even going to bother addressing the rest of your post, I just found this too funny.


He's good at magic and master magic as well. He had the continental record for master magic at one point. I think I should have mentioned that he is an much older competitor that travels a lot just to compete in square-1, magic, master magic, and sometimes megaminx. He has never competed in any other event, not even 3x3. Which means he will be going to competitions competing in just square-1 90% of the time now starting in 2013. This is a man who has been to 70 competitions in just 5 years. That number shows what these events mean to him, and for half his events to be gone is pretty sad. This is the example of one person who truly values magic.
Lastly, I don't understand how you wouldn't address my point if you found it funny. You tried to mock me but frankly I don't feel offended or degraded.


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## uberCuber (Jul 23, 2012)

samchoochiu said:


> He's good at magic and master magic as well. He had the continental record for master magic at one point. I think I should have mentioned that he is an much older competitor that travels a lot just to compete in square-1, magic, master magic, and sometimes megaminx. He has never competed in any other event, not even 3x3. Which means he will be going to competitions competing in just square-1 90% of the time now starting in 2013. This is a man who has been to 70 competitions in just 5 years. That number shows what these events mean to him, and for half his events to be gone is pretty sad. This is the example of one person who truly values magic.



Literally every word of this paragraph is irrelevant to my post.



> Lastly, I don't understand how you wouldn't address my point if you found it funny.



I honestly don't know what this sentence is supposed to mean. I did address your point..?



> You tried to mock me but frankly I don't feel offended or degraded.



I am glad that you don't feel offended or degraded, because I didn't intend to cause either. I was merely pointing out an amusing flaw in your (...what's the word I want here? reasoning? argument? eh whatever)


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## samchoochiu (Jul 23, 2012)

uberCuber said:


> Literally every word of this paragraph is irrelevant to my post.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


you said you found it amusing that I picked out someone that "does something other than magic very well" and I said in my second post that he is talented at magic as he is at square-1. What is so hard for you to comprehend?


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## kinch2002 (Jul 23, 2012)

cityzach said:


> It sucks that magics are being removed but honestly there's nothing we can do about it. We're powerless. *Personally I think our voices should be able to be heard*, and if enough people don't want magics to be removed we should keep them. And for the people that really dislike magics for whatever reason, they just shouldn't compete in them.
> 
> anyway, I'm obviously really upset that magics are being removed, but since there's nothing that can stop it there's no point in arguing about it...


They are and have been heard. Remember that most delegates, as well as Tyson and Ron are on this forum. Just because you haven't got your way doesn't mean you haven't been heard. I certainly understand that magics mean a lot to you and others, and I don't just turn around say 'you're stupid', but after weighing up each side I still put forward my support in favour of their removal.


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## uberCuber (Jul 23, 2012)

samchoochiu said:


> you said you found it amusing that I picked out someone that "does something other than magic very well" and I said in my second post that he is talented at magic as he is at square-1. What is so hard for you to comprehend?



Thank you for summarizing that, but it really wasn't necessary, I was there.

In case you didn't get it, the fact that Takao is as skilled at magic as he is at square-1 is irrelevant to my original post. You said "There are some people that *only* do magic". You followed with the words "for example". If you are pointing out that some people *only* do magic, an _example_ would be someone that *only* does magic, not somebody who is also _really_ good at an unrelated puzzle. This is the one and only point I was making in that post. I understand that magics would be very important to Takao, but it is _irrelevant_.

This is the last post I am going to make regarding this to avoid cluttering the thread further. This point didn't even deserve this many posts as it is.


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## Dene (Jul 23, 2012)

gogozerg said:


> Since we cannot reliably time a solve with our timing procedure, the 2^3 event will disappear next?



Don't get my hopes up!


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## Kirjava (Jul 23, 2012)

gogozerg said:


> "Lack of puzzle quality"... Of course.
> "Difficulty in regulation"... Certainly.
> 
> But there's absolutely nothing new.
> ...



So new problems are required in order for them to be removed?

Does this mean that we can't remove +2 now because it has the same problems as it did in 2003?



cityzach said:


> And for the people that really dislike magics for whatever reason, they just shouldn't compete in them.



Same with humans and wars.


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## ThomasJE (Jul 23, 2012)

People have been saying that we can't record and analyse all the solves. So, I thought that the judge could see the solve as normal, and then he can either rule the solve OK, +2, DNF, OR he could review the tape if he is unsure. A bit like a video referee in a rugby match.


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## APdRF (Jul 23, 2012)

But in a rugby match, they only play rugby. If you do a competition only with magic, then you can have a judge only for this, watching it in slow mo, etc.


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## ThomasJE (Jul 23, 2012)

APdRF said:


> But in a rugby match, they only play rugby. If you do a competition only with magic, then you can have a judge only for this, watching it in slow mo, etc.



But in a magic event, we only do magic. And as for having a judge just for that, I wasn't thinking of that, but that would be a nice idea. It would stop confusion, and then solves that they want reviewed, they can ask for them to be reviewed in the next event (possibly one the video judge doesn't compete in)


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## APdRF (Jul 23, 2012)

Yes, but you want from magic to be a funny and fast event, if you only have a judge, or lets say two, this would delay the competition so much. I think that the WCA has taken the right decision.


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## prażeodym (Jul 23, 2012)

It is true that magic don't require thinking - but imho it's not reason for removing them!
Magics were always diffrent event, it's about taking control of Your stress, make fast moves, take tactic - if I want to go as fast as I can, or I want to make slower solve to be sure that I will not make any mistackes. Magics were always unpredictable (for example I had 3 place in MM on WC09 with average ~3s so it was very lucky for me, or when Wojciech Szatanowski won Polish Nationals in Master magic with average 2.92 - is that surprising? well mb not, but for everyone it was because on competition before he made ER in the slowest solves in the world with avg 22.74).
What about thinking in Magic? Do You have to think at all? Well, do You think while You are solving 3x3? You only recognize situation and make algorithm. Is that You really call thinking? With a pure heart I can say that for example SQUARE-1 doesn't requiere any thinking at all - You have to only learn 100 algorithms. Is square-1 more popular than Magic? ofc not, it's 4 times less. So why square-1 is still official event? I have no idea, mb because You have to recognize algorithm, that it's SOOOOOOO EXTREAMLY HARD! (ofc not for those who didn't notice sarcasm). You will probably ask why I am so offensive to square-1? Because I dont like it anymore. Why? On Last competition (Polish Open 2012) I didn't had time to practise - because I was the organiser. I was 3rd in the final with average 23.07! (my best avg on competition is 13.39, normal average about 16). Why I was so bad? Because I forgot only 1 algorithm! I had this algorithm 3 times, and everytime I make it slow 2 look. 

Besides magics are only one event, that are 100% just. Have You ever had lucky case in Magic? Why one event is better than other, if one event can win someone who is 2-3s slower than other guy, but he won because he had 3 lucky cases? Well I know one situation like this on one Polish competition in 2x2 event!

How about FMC? This event require thinking. Well You are completelly right, but does it require any dexterity? Besides I know some cubers who got FMC prizes for knowing manny algorithms (mostly ZB ZZ etc) but ofc I don't say that It doesn't require any thinking. Indeed it does a lot, I like fmc because of this all FM theory (for example NISS), but I never practise it, so probably You will call me stupid, because my pb is 42 (I only solve on competition).

Is solving makes you better? I think yes, because Speedstacking is very good for Your brain also.

- Ok how about judging?
Well I think I could judge magic without any mistackes, because I know what to look at. I think if someone feel that someone's decision was unfair, I think they should film their solves on their own, and then show it to judge etc. Besides wca can always change the rules that it's hard to see (like stoping the timer, it could be just other regulations for magic only).

To sum up, I think magic should be still official event because every event require something else - mb You don't need to know billion algortithms for it, but You need other things that You don't have to have in other events. I don't know other much popular event than magic, and I don't know what would replace it. I am sorry for those who practise magic a lot. I don't regret time spent on solving magic because it was fun for me.

PS: I am not even sorry for long post, but sorry for my english, I know it's bad


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## Dene (Jul 23, 2012)

ThomasJE said:


> People have been saying that we can't record and analyse all the solves. So, I thought that the judge could see the solve as normal, and then he can either rule the solve OK, +2, DNF, OR he could review the tape if he is unsure. A bit like a video referee in a rugby match.



Jolly good. Now we only need sponsors to donate millions of dollars year in year out to pay for the technology needed to implement this at competitions all around the world every week. While we're at it, why not build a stadium dedicated just to speedcubing competitions? The money from spectators can go towards improving the video review technology. We could even get a big tv deal; that would bring in huge money!


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## antoineccantin (Jul 23, 2012)

Out of curiosity, what will happen to people that only competed in Magics' profiles?


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## Stefan (Jul 23, 2012)

samchoochiu said:


> As Stephan Pochman said "its like kicking someone's sand castle".



No no no no no. That was a different context. I said that specifically towards people who solely wrote like "Yes, I'm so happy". Removing the sand castle for good reasons is something completely different.


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## HelpCube (Jul 23, 2012)

Look, here is the difference between Magics and the other puzzles. The other puzzles are well, puzzles, while the Magics are not. There is no variety in a Magic solve, it is simply performing the *exact* same hand movements over and over again. You can't do that with any of the puzzles. I used to practice Magic and Master Magic quite a bit, but I realized that it doesn't stimulate my brain cells at all and is completely monotonous. I like to compare Magics to NASCAR, but without the other cars in the way. It's simply left turn, left turn, left turn, left turn, and then another left turn. Thank you WCA, for finally taking some initiative and getting this done.


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## ben1996123 (Jul 23, 2012)

People who are making up reasons for magic to stay when it's only because they really like it should try speedstacking.


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## ThomasJE (Jul 23, 2012)

Dene said:


> Jolly good. Now we only need sponsors to donate millions of dollars year in year out to pay for the technology needed to implement this at competitions all around the world every week. While we're at it, why not build a stadium dedicated just to speedcubing competitions? The money from spectators can go towards improving the video review technology. We could even get a big tv deal; that would bring in huge money!



Technology needed:
Video camera (comes in phones that can be easily borrowed (probably easier used by the owner))
Memory card reader (comes with many laptops now, a dongel can be bought for around £6-7/$10, and many people have them)
Computer (used at almost all competitions)

Cost: 0

We have the technology, let's use it.


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## Olji (Jul 23, 2012)

If you're using a phone cam you have to consider the resolution and stuff, there's quite a deal of phones with cameras that will only show the solve as a blur, which won't help that much.


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## Endgame (Jul 23, 2012)

Thepuzzlesolver said:


> I can think of a two reasons why, and I know this will add questions too...
> 
> 1. They can video tape the solves and replay them in slow motion...
> 
> ...



How are you planning to regulate this video taping concept? The speedsolving community is semi-voluntary. It takes a great effort to organise an event, to pay for the venue, to get all the timers and now you also want them to hold Magics (unofficial!) and use videotapes? How on earth can you collect the necessary funds for this? And then you propose videotaping it from multiple angles, requiring more cameras.

Yeah, very good idea.

Oh, and before I post this, one more question: how can you make time to judge the slow-mo replays? Many competitions are already stuffed with events running over a complete weekend 9-to-5.



ThomasJE said:


> We have the technology, let's use it.



Yeah, now let's invent a time machine so we can make competitions longer.


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## cubernya (Jul 23, 2012)

One question (problem really): What will happen to the people and IDs that have only competed in Magic and Master Magic? Will they be deleted, hidden, or just left blank?


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## Thepuzzlesolver (Jul 23, 2012)

Endgame said:


> How are you planning to regulate this video taping concept? The speedsolving community is semi-voluntary. It takes a great effort to organise an event, to pay for the venue, to get all the timers and now you also want them to hold Magics (unofficial!) and use videotapes? How on earth can you collect the necessary funds for this? And then you propose videotaping it from multiple angles, requiring more cameras.
> 
> Yeah, very good idea.
> 
> Oh, and before I post this, one more question: how can you make time to judge the slow-mo replays? Many competitions are already stuffed with events running over a complete weekend 9-to-5.


Yeah, I realized that, Like I said


Thepuzzlesolver said:


> True, it was a raw idea to begin with.... and yeah, now that I think about it is is too complicated and costly


unless you missed the whole conversation, (end of page 3 to beginning of page 5) This was already convinced. Also I said the time would come during the blind events, cause that takes up a lot of time too...


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## cityzach (Jul 23, 2012)

theZcuber said:


> One question (problem really): What will happen to the people and IDs that have only competed in Magic and Master Magic? Will they be deleted, hidden, or just left blank?



For example: http://worldcubeassociation.org/results/p.php?i=2011BADU01


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## asportking (Jul 23, 2012)

Magic may be fun to some people, but it just doesn't fit in. It's called "speedcubing" because it involves twisty puzzles. Magics don't really do that. It we kept magics in, we may as well put speedstacking in too and make it one huge organization. Sure, some people claim it helps "relax" them, but if that's the only reason they do magic, then they can practice it unofficially. There's only a certain amount of official events that people can handle efficiently, and eliminating magic and master magic would make it a lot easier for organizers and maybe open up some space for new official events.


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## manstrong (Jul 23, 2012)

With the loss of 2 competitions, will anything new becoming in for replacement?


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## Tim Reynolds (Jul 23, 2012)

Zach: the current behavior, I think, is that they'll still be there but no times will be listed on their profiles.


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## Hyprul 9-ty2 (Jul 23, 2012)

manstrong said:


> With the loss of 2 competitions, will anything new becoming in for replacement?


If there are going to replacements, I think Skewb would be a nice addition.


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## Michael Womack (Jul 23, 2012)

manstrong said:


> With the loss of 2 competitions, will anything new becoming in for replacement?



I think 8x8 and skewb should take the place


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## asportking (Jul 23, 2012)

Michael Womack said:


> I think 8x8 and skewb should take the place



Probably not 8x8. It takes forever, it's pretty expensive, and not a lot of people have it. And I don't know what the general consensus is right now, but I remember some people considered the SS 8x8 to be a knockoff, and since that's the only 8x8 available, it might not be the best idea to create an event where the only cube available can be considered to be a KO.


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## Michael Womack (Jul 23, 2012)

asportking said:


> Probably not 8x8. It takes forever, it's pretty expensive, and not a lot of people have it. And I don't know what the general consensus is right now, but I remember some people considered the SS 8x8 to be a knockoff, and since that's the only 8x8 available, it might not be the best idea to create an event where the only cube available can be considered to be a KO.



the UWR for 8x8 is 6:50.xx


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## uberCuber (Jul 23, 2012)

manstrong said:


> With the loss of 2 competitions, will anything new becoming in for replacement?





Hyprul 9-ty2 said:


> If there are going to replacements, I think Skewb would be a nice addition.





Michael Womack said:


> I think 8x8 and skewb should take the place



If any new events do get added, it's not going to be specifically because magics are being removed. It has already been said by more than one important person that any new events to be added would not be, and should be thought of as, 'replacements.' The removal of events and addition of others are mutually exclusive occurrences.


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## hcfong (Jul 23, 2012)

uberCuber said:


> If any new events do get added, it's not going to be specifically because magics are being removed. It has already been said by more than one important person that any new events to be added would not be, and should be thought of as, 'replacements.' The removal of events and addition of others are mutually exclusive occurrences.



Not mutually exclusive. If they were mutually exclusive occurences, it would mean that when one occurs, the other cannot occur. I think you mean that the addition and removal of events are unrelated.


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## uberCuber (Jul 23, 2012)

hcfong said:


> Not mutually exclusive. If they were mutually exclusive occurences, it would mean that when one occurs, the other cannot occur. I think you mean that the addition and removal of events are unrelated.



Yes, thank you, that is what I meant


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## Bob (Jul 23, 2012)

I think the Magic and MM times should still be listed on profiles. This was an official event for 10 years. Some people have competed in Magic for hundreds of solves. I don't think that we should just hide that. It's different than MultiBLD old style. With MultiBLD, we CHANGED the event. For this event, we're removing it. I recommend that times and rankings are still listed but they will just remain static.


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## Thepuzzlesolver (Jul 23, 2012)

Bob said:


> I think the Magic and MM times should still be listed on profiles. This was an official event for 10 years. Some people have competed in Magic for hundreds of solves. I don't think that we should just hide that. It's different than MultiBLD old style. With MultiBLD, we CHANGED the event. For this event, we're removing it. I recommend that times and rankings are still listed but they will just remain static.


Agreed


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## Kirjava (Jul 23, 2012)

I see no reason to have ranking and times for an event we don't hold.


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## antoineccantin (Jul 23, 2012)

Kirjava said:


> I see no reason to have ranking and times for an event we don't hold.



He explained it pretty well. However, I don't think it is necessary to keep them in the "Current Personal Records", only in the History.


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## APdRF (Jul 23, 2012)

I think the opposite, why should we maintain a ranking that will never change?


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## ThomasJE (Jul 23, 2012)

We could have a section for 'Defunct Events', where there are the results for old Multi-BLD, Magic and Master Magic. This way, people who care about these events know that their times are still in the WCA database.


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## Daniel Que (Jul 23, 2012)

Awwww, magic was fun
:') it was a good run lol


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## Kirjava (Jul 23, 2012)

antoineccantin said:


> He explained it pretty well.



I know. I am able to read text and understand it.

I disagreed with his reasoning and posted issues I had with his idea.


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## kinch2002 (Jul 23, 2012)

Magic solves should go at the bottom of your profile in some sort of new section called 'discontinued events'. They should be removed from the normal rankings, records, stats pages too (moved somewhere else if needs be).


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## ben1996123 (Jul 23, 2012)

ThomasJE said:


> We could have a section for 'Defunct Events', where there are the results for old Multi-BLD, Magic and Master Magic.



iirc 3x3 with no inspection used to be official too.


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## samchoochiu (Jul 24, 2012)

Bob said:


> I think the Magic and MM times should still be listed on profiles. This was an official event for 10 years. Some people have competed in Magic for hundreds of solves. I don't think that we should just hide that. It's different than MultiBLD old style. With MultiBLD, we CHANGED the event. For this event, we're removing it. I recommend that times and rankings are still listed but they will just remain static.


I absolutely agree with this. Thanks for having the same view as me. People like Ernie have practice magic like it was an event to be around for a long time, like it has.


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## jonlin (Jul 24, 2012)

Thepuzzlesolver said:


> Alright, its not that much on small events. I took information from a recent competition 'Raleigh Open 2012' there were 15 magic solvers and 5 master magic solvers, thats 20 people multiply by 5 for the average, and its only 100 solves, and they could do it only on sub-2 or lower, and some people aren't that fast...



Actually, Ishmam DNFed the magic solve and DNSd the last solve so it's only 99 solves


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## anders (Jul 24, 2012)

ThomasJE said:


> We could have a section for 'Defunct Events', where there are the results for old Multi-BLD, Magic and Master Magic. This way, people who care about these events know that their times are still in the WCA database.



Perhaps it is timely to revitalise this site:

http://www.speedcubing.com/results/

where other former official events such as the Rainbow Cube and the Siamese Cube have been dumped.




ben1996123 said:


> iirc 3x3 with no inspection used to be official too.



No inspection has never been an official event. However, in the past I have hosted several competitions with this event as an unofficial one.


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## vcuber13 (Jul 24, 2012)

but, technically wasn't that how the 82 championships were?


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## anders (Jul 24, 2012)

vcuber13 said:


> but, technically wasn't that how the 82 championships were?



If you refer to no inspection, the answer is no. The reason that we have 15 s inspection time is because they did like that back in 1982.

http://www.speedsolving.com/forum/showthread.php?18078-Rubik-s-Cube-World-Championship-1982


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## vcuber13 (Jul 24, 2012)

oh, I guess I was thinking of something else.


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## qqwref (Jul 24, 2012)

Michael Womack said:


> the UWR for 8x8 is 6:50.xx


lmao
I have a 6:24 single and Balint Bodor's times are like 30s better than mine...

But yeah, it's too long to make an official event, even if the puzzle's quality is high.


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## drewsopchak (Jul 24, 2012)

qqwref said:


> lmao
> I have a 6:24 single and Balint Bodor's times are like 30s better than mine...
> 
> But yeah, it's too long to make an official event, even if the puzzle's quality is high.


Maybe too long to have a Mo3 format but why not just single?


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## Bob (Jul 24, 2012)

drewsopchak said:


> Maybe too long to have a Mo3 format but why not just single?



Because it's a waste of time.


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## asportking (Jul 24, 2012)

drewsopchak said:


> Maybe too long to have a Mo3 format but why not just single?





Bob said:


> Because it's a waste of time.



Yeah, I agree, One solve, even if it's a somewhat long solve, isn't really worth the time it takes to set up an event for it. And like I had said earlier, not many people have an 8x8. So it would be like two or three people in a competition doing one solve, which is a waste of time.


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## MirzaCubing (Jul 24, 2012)

asportking said:


> Yeah, I agree, One solve, even if it's a somewhat long solve, isn't really worth the time it takes to set up an event for it. And like I had said earlier, not many people have an 8x8. So it would be like two or three people in a competition doing one solve, which is a waste of time.



+ Most of us can't even sub-10 8x8


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## qqwref (Jul 24, 2012)

Honestly, it would pretty much just be a longer 7x7 event. Not something we really need.

Skewb could be interesting, though. Apparently some people are pretty good at it.


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## Hyprul 9-ty2 (Jul 24, 2012)

uberCuber said:


> If any new events do get added, it's not going to be specifically because magics are being removed. It has already been said by more than one important person that any new events to be added would not be, and should be thought of as, 'replacements.' The removal of events and addition of others are mutually exclusive occurrences.


I agree with that, I was just implying that any events that are added to the WCA will sort of automatically "fill the void" that Magic and Master Magic are going to create.


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## drewsopchak (Jul 24, 2012)

asportking said:


> Yeah, I agree, One solve, even if it's a somewhat long solve, isn't really worth the time it takes to set up an event for it. And like I had said earlier, not many people have an 8x8. So it would be like two or three people in a competition doing one solve, which is a waste of time.



People would buy them if it was an event.


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## Bob (Jul 24, 2012)

drewsopchak said:


> People would buy them if it was an event.



That doesn't mean organizers would host it. Personally, I think even 6x6 and 7x7 are too long for events and don't really add much more than the 5x5 event and I would like to see them removed. Adding 8x8 would be a step in the wrong direction.


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## Dene (Jul 24, 2012)

About keeping the magics results on peoples profiles, I am against this idea. If one of the reasons we are removing magics is because of concerns regarding the accuracy of the judging (past, present and future) then why should the past (and possibly inaccurate) results be displayed?

As for 8x8 there is absolutely no need, it would add nothing but a big headache for scramblers.


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## mitch1234 (Jul 24, 2012)

8x8 is too large of a cube to hold. If I were to do 7x7 officially right now I would be top-100, I can barely Sub-9 on 8x8. There would only be a hundred or so people that would have an official solve. I say that Skewb would be a good replacement, takes up as much time as pyraminx does, and Andrew Kang loves them. 
Now for the part about removing magics. Will magics be held at Worlds? If so will it be kinda off to the side or just not happen at all? I guess I've been around magics enough to give an opinion on them, I think that it brings a draw on people that may want to become cubers some day. But for the time its just useless data that the WCA has to put on a computer some where. 
Magics are just too hard to judge. I posted a solve on here a few months ago and it sparked a flame war about whether the solve was good or not. Sure you could film every ones solves but analyzing the data would take ages. Master Magic is no different I have seen bad stops with both magic and master magic there is no way getting around this. 
For where the times go, I just say hide them. Its not an event anymore, then it doesn't matter.


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## TMOY (Jul 24, 2012)

anders said:


> No inspection has never been an official event.


It is mentioned as an official event in the 2006 rules, first version (but not in the second version, seems like it has had a very short lifespan as an official event).


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## megaminxwin (Jul 24, 2012)

I'm going to be sad to see this one go, but it makes sense. While I really do like magic and master magic, it really does come down to flipping your hands in the same way over and over and over.

Practicing is really boring. You end up trying to find ways to make it more exciting. (related: i think i might have the uwr for ohitabld magic. has anyone beaten 26.43? ...probably, yeah)

Also, apparently a lot of people want new events to be held now. Really? We just got rid of magic, so now we need to fill up a void? Even if you're not thinking like that, we still have 17 other events, and that's enough as it is for the moment. They might come in later, but not at this very moment.


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## Ranzha (Jul 24, 2012)

qqwref said:


> Skewb could be interesting, though. Apparently some people are pretty good at it.



I await the day.


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## cubecraze1 (Jul 24, 2012)

I love Master Magic but skewb's cool too.


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## Kirjava (Jul 24, 2012)

I would rather we removed more events before adding others ^_^


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## tx789 (Jul 24, 2012)

I really care much about this, now.


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## Bob (Jul 24, 2012)

Kirjava said:


> I would rather we removed more events before adding others ^_^



Yep. Feet, 6, 7, and maybe even 5BLD. :x


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## Kirjava (Jul 24, 2012)

Bob said:


> Yep. Feet, 6, 7, and maybe even 5BLD. :x



Multi and 4BLD too.


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## Cubenovice (Jul 24, 2012)

Bob said:


> Yep. Feet, 6, 7, and maybe even 5BLD. :x





Kirjava said:


> Multi and 4BLD too.



Is this because these events take a long time?

I do not see this as an issue as these events can be normally scheduled and I think there is not really an judging issue.
Multi and Big BLDs are the most extreme tests of puzzle solving skills and deserve to be officially recognized.

If as an organizer you feel these events take up too much time: do not schedule them.
This is already often the case.

If you do hold them you still have several options:
-	Assign a time slot (reference to German Nationals where there is a 90 minute slot to do your 4 and 5 BLD attempts)
-	Find a judge and solve whenever you like
-	Overlap them in the same time slot; for instance FMC – Big BLD

As mentioned before: I would actually like to see bigger BLD become official.
If you can solve these you deserve the official recognition.
As always it would be up to the organisers to schedule it and they can even set limits / qualifications.
Reference again to German Nationals: to participate in 4 and 5 BLD you need to have an official success on 4 or 5 BLD (probably done to reduce the number of participants as this is a large competition)

I agree on feet though: to high of a “gimmick” factor.


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## porkynator (Jul 24, 2012)

Bob said:


> Yep. Feet, 6, 7, and maybe even 5BLD. :x





Kirjava said:


> Multi and 4BLD too.



And then Megaminx, Pyraminx and Clock: it's World CUBE Association and they aren't even cubes. And Square-1, which most of times isn't a cube either. Even better: let's remove everything except 3x3 speedsolve!

Removal of Magics makes sense. I would understand the reasons for removing 6x6 and 7x7: they are big cubes like 5x5 and 4x4, just bigger; you solve in a similar way, it just takes longer, so they are redundant.
But why removing feet? Because you don't like it? Because a feet solve looks silly? There are many people who think the whole Rubik's cube thing is silly. Moreover, I think Feet is there for people who, for some reason, aren't able to use they're hands to solve a Cube; in this way they can compete at the same level at least in that event.
And why removing every BLD event except 3BLD? I don't see any reason to remove them that cannot be used to remove also normal 4x4 and 5x5 speedsolve.

As I said before, removal of magics makes sense, but I don't think we should remove events just because they are long or difficult to judge: we are only loosing something in this way. If an organiser doesn't like an event he can simply not put it into his competitions; if you don't like an event, don't compete in it; if you hate an event so much that you don't even want to see it, look somewhere else when they're holding it.

EDIT: it actually took me quite a long time to write this post (I also had to answer a phone call), so I posted whithout noticing Cubenovice's post, which is similar to mine for some extent.


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## hcfong (Jul 24, 2012)

porkynator said:


> But why removing feet? Because you don't like it? Because a feet solve looks silly? There are many people who think the whole Rubik's cube thing is silly. Moreover, I think Feet is there for people who, for some reason, aren't able to use they're hands to solve a Cube; in this way they can compete at the same level at least in that event.
> 
> .



How many people do you know who compete in feet solving and can't solve with their hands?


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## porkynator (Jul 24, 2012)

hcfong said:


> How many people do you know who compete in feet solving and can't solve with their hands?



None, and I don't even know if there is anybody in the world who does. The fact is that there might be someone, now or in the future.


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## Godmil (Jul 24, 2012)

porkynator said:


> None, and I don't even know if there is anybody in the world who does. The fact is that there might be someone, now or in the future.



So it should be an official event, because at some time in the future there may be a person who can't solve with their hands, and this will allow them to compete on a level field with others?
Really?

I like (the idea of) MBLD (as I can't do it yet), but I guess a reason for it to go would be that after one cube all you're doing is getting better at memory games, and there are other competitions for things like that.
Wouldn't it be dramatic if WCA dropped a ton of events like feet, MBLD, 4BLD, 5BLD... etc. There would be lots of room for other exciting puzzles that aren't just extensions of existing ones. Unlikely, but I think seeing them doing bold things like removing Magic shows a very positive progressive attitude for the WCA.


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## porkynator (Jul 24, 2012)

Godmil said:


> So it should be an official event, because at some time in the future there may be a person who can't solve with their hands, and this will allow them to compete on a level field with others?
> Really?


Yes, that's what I'm saying. This was also the first thing that came to my mind when I discovered that solving with feet was an official event. Otherwise, I agree that feetsolves don't make a lot of sense.


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## insane569 (Jul 24, 2012)

People need to keep in mind that just cause something was removed doesnt mean that it'll be replaced. If they add something it will only be because they didnt want to wait till next year to add it. If they dont add it now then it'll be next year which means we'll have to wait till 2014. Assuming they add something or consider it.


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## Kirjava (Jul 24, 2012)

Godmil said:


> There would be lots of room for other exciting puzzles that aren't just extensions of existing ones.



A variety would be nice. 6x6x6/7x7x7 are pretty bad offenders as far as not bringing anything new to the table goes. (If someone says obliques I'm going to shoot them)


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## Stefan (Jul 24, 2012)

Kirjava said:


> (If someone says obliques I'm going to shoot them)



obliques

I have almost 200 of them, good luck shooting them all.


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## Kirjava (Jul 24, 2012)

psh, they hand out guns in america like candy - I'd be wary if I were you


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## asportking (Jul 24, 2012)

insane569 said:


> People need to keep in mind that just cause something was removed doesnt mean that it'll be replaced. If they add something it will only be because they didnt want to wait till next year to add it. If they dont add it now then it'll be next year which means we'll have to wait till 2014. Assuming they add something or consider it.



We're not saying for sure that it's going to be replaced. We're just saying that, in general, the more events we take out, the more we can add. 

On that note, feet, 5BLD, 7x7, 6x6, and maybe 4BLD are definitely up for being removed next (feet being the most likely contender). I don't know if it would be worth removing 4BLD though- the method for solving it is different enough that I wouldn't call it an extension of 3BLD.


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## Kirjava (Jul 24, 2012)

asportking said:


> the method for solving it is different enough that I wouldn't call it an extension of 3BLD.



"the" method? There is more than one method.

However, the method used by the fastest people in both events is exactly the same for 4BLD and 3BLD.


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