# [video] The Ethics of Cubing and Elitists



## Tall5001 (Feb 26, 2012)

[youtubehd]eytIB7gxCCU[/youtubehd]

TL;DW i dont like how people treat eachother in the cubing community and here im addressing the problems that i think occur 

Respond how you wish but you might want to think about how you have been acting first!


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## rowehessler (Feb 26, 2012)

I agree with you. I hate how people talk down to others on the forum. This has been addressed many times over the years on the forum but nothing has really changed


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## Tall5001 (Feb 26, 2012)

rowehessler said:


> I agree with you. I hate how people talk down to others on the forum. This has been addressed many times over the years on the forum but nothing has really changed


 
Thanks dude it means alot!! I wish it would just change!


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## aronpm (Feb 26, 2012)

Tall5001 said:


> TL;DW i dont like how people treat eachother in the cubing community and i want to change it


tl;dw.

that won't happen.


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## insane569 (Feb 26, 2012)

aronpm said:


> tl;dw.
> 
> that won't happen.


 
It can if everyone out there tries to be a better person. The mods here try their best to keep everything friendly, deleting my post and all, closing threads before i get to make fun of the n00b in them. Hell they'll probably delete this one too for "spam".


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## TheMachanga (Feb 26, 2012)

aronpm said:


> tl;dw.
> 
> that won't happen.


 
I think these are the types of responses and attitude that he was talking about in the video.


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## Tall5001 (Feb 26, 2012)

aronpm said:


> tl;dw.
> 
> that won't happen.


 are you saying that it was too long and you didnt watch it or just referring to my statement. Because i changed it to what i think the video is really about now and it makes more sense




TheMachanga said:


> I think these are the types of responses and attitude that he was talking about in the video.


 
EXACTLY!!! thanks for actually watching it!


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## collinbxyz (Feb 26, 2012)

Thank's for putting this up here


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## Noahaha (Feb 26, 2012)

I watched most of your video. I personally play a lot of chess, and most people you see at tournaments are happy to make your acquaintance, play and go over games with you, even if you were complete strangers when the day started. I feel that the problem is that most people meet on the forum before they meet in real life, and this connection is not possible. I'm not saying the forums can't get better, just that an internet community is less likely to be a friendly place than real life.


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## aronpm (Feb 26, 2012)

Tall5001 said:


> are you saying that it was too long and you didnt watch it or just referring to my statement. Because i changed it to what i think the video is really about now and it makes more sense


I didn't watch and I was responding to the tl;dw


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## rowehessler (Feb 26, 2012)

aronpm said:


> I didn't watch and I was responding to the tl;dw


 
you're still one of the most "elitist" people on the forum. No offense.


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## Tall5001 (Feb 26, 2012)

rowehessler said:


> you're still one of the most "elitist" people on the forum. No offense.


 
i disagree all the offense i agree with you and that is what im talking about it just doesnt make sense. You dont even know what the video is about yet you are already disagreeing with it! i talk about this in the video if you watched it Aronpm you would understand


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## Sa967St (Feb 26, 2012)

I lost you at 5:30-6:10. When have mods scolded at new cubers solely for saying "beginner" things? Whenever I see cubers insulting each other on the forums, it has nothing to do with solely someone being new to the community.

Regarding the whole "just don't say anything about the things you hate", welcome to the Internet. It can't really be helped that people do stupid things on the Internet. As much as you want everyone to be rational, some people just can't be changed. YouTube comments have been full of crap for years, and nothing will prevent haters on YouTube from continuing to insult and be disrespectful to others. It's very different on these forums though, the moderator team is always on the lookout for rude and disrespectful posts. If you could see how many people have received infractions for posting irresponsibly, and how many posts get deleted on a regular basis, you'd see that we try hard to keep the forums a clean and friendly place.

I watched your whole video by the way and I read through the thread about the Force Cube. I've deleted the thread.


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## cyoubx (Feb 26, 2012)

Tall5001 said:


> i disagree all the offense i agree with you and that is what im talking about it just doesnt make sense. You dont even know what the video is about yet you are already disagreeing with it! i talk about this in the video if you watched it Aronpm you would understand


 
I think you quoted the wrong person.


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## insane569 (Feb 26, 2012)

Sa967St said:


> I watched your whole video by the way and I read through the thread about the Force Cube. I've deleted the thread.



Why?


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## Sa967St (Feb 26, 2012)

insane569 said:


> Why?


The Force Cube thread was unconstructive and full of bashing.


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## Tall5001 (Feb 26, 2012)

cyoubx said:


> I think you quoted the wrong person.


 
no i quoted Rowe because i was correcting him and that aaronmp should be insulted on the way he acts it was aimed at aron but correcting rowes post.




Sa967St said:


> I lost you at 5:30-6:10. When have mods scolded at new cubers solely for saying "beginner" things? Whenever I see cubers insulting each other on the forums, it has nothing to do with solely someone being new to the community.
> 
> Regarding the whole "just don't say anything about the things you hate", welcome to the Internet. It can't really be helped that people do stupid things on the Internet. As much as you want everyone to be rational, some people just can't be changed. YouTube comments have been full of crap for years, and nothing will prevent haters on YouTube from continuing to insult and be disrespectful to others. It's very different on these forums though, the moderator team is always on the lookout for rude and disrespectful posts. If you could see how many people have received infractions for posting irresponsibly, and how many posts get deleted on a regular basis, you'd see that we try hard to keep the forums a clean and friendly place.
> 
> I watched your whole video by the way and I read through the thread about the Force Cube. I've deleted the thread.


 
Have dropped out for a while im not sure if it still happens but a while ago people would post stuff like "Hi im new here and i solve the 3x3 in _____ and blah blah blah" and people would go on telling this new person that they posted this in the wrong section and scolding them for not knowing what to do on their first post. If that doesnt still happen thats awesome and good for the community but thats what i was referring to pretty much. 

And i agree with you people hide behind their faceless name and just insult people all the time and i know that i cant stop it. And i guess i was just trying to apply my point all the way across the internet and not to specifically cubers. I glad that its gotten better from what you are saying. I just remember when it was terrible and people got attacked all the time with no end because the moderators were apart of it. This was probably 6-7 months ago that im referring to but i hope you understood the point of my video and what i am talking about it. 

Either way thanks for watching it and helping the SS community become a more friendly place to be.


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## aronpm (Feb 26, 2012)

Tall5001 said:


> no i quoted Rowe because i was correcting him and that aaronmp should be insulted on the way he acts it was aimed at aron but correcting rowes post.


 
Dude, all I did was state my opinion that the elitism in the community won't go away, and now you're calling me an elitist and being rude, and you don't even bother spelling my name right. It's aronpm, not aaronmp.


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## Sa967St (Feb 26, 2012)

Tall5001 said:


> Have dropped out for a while im not sure if it still happens but a while ago people would post stuff like "Hi im new here and i solve the 3x3 in _____ and blah blah blah" and people would go on telling this new person that they posted this in the wrong section and scolding them for not knowing what to do on their first post. If that doesnt still happen thats awesome and good for the community but thats what i was referring to pretty much.


This still happens once in a while, but people don't get away with being rude like they may have used to. 
Posting in the wrong section by accident is not a huge deal, it happens to lots of new users. Usually the new user would just receive a friendly PM regarding how/where to post, and the ones who acted irresponsibly toward the new user would receive infractions.


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## ottozing (Feb 26, 2012)

thanks for making this video. im glad im not the only one who thinks this is a problem


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## Tall5001 (Feb 26, 2012)

Sa967St said:


> This still happens once in a while, but people don't get away with being rude like they may have used to.
> Posting in the wrong section by accident is not a huge deal, it happens to lots of new users. Usually the new user would just receive a friendly PM regarding how/where to post, and the ones who acted irresponsibly toward the new user would receive infractions.


 
Thats alot better then it used to be. Thanks for changing it!!




aronpm said:


> Dude, all I did was state my opinion that the elitism in the community won't go away, and now you're calling me an elitist and being rude, and you don't even bother spelling my name right. It's aronpm, not aaronmp.


 
Well it could go away if people tried to change the way they acted and treated people over the internet. I was just referring to what Rowe had said i guess i dont even know really the way you act because i dont know you that well. So for that im sorry. It just makes me angry when people couldnt be bothered and say tl;dw though they still comment on the video. It makes no sense to me.


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## JianhanC (Feb 26, 2012)

The speedcubing community is not one of the friendliest one that I've being on, and it would be very nice if people are nicer to each other. Other communities are full of swearing, cussing and trolling *****ic members but it's all funny and an altogether enjoyable place to be on. I'm not saying that we have to swear here, but even with the no profanity rule on this forum, people are still rude to one another or in more often cases, feel that they are superior to other less active/newer members. Just what I think, please consider it before bashing me. I haven't watched the video yet but it's on my to-do list as of today.

EDIT: what, that got censored? I meant it as an example


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## Tall5001 (Feb 26, 2012)

JianhanC said:


> The speedcubing community is not one of the friendliest one that I've being on, and it would be very nice if people are nicer to each other. Other communities are full of swearing, cussing and trolling *****ic members but it's all funny and an altogether enjoyable place to be on. I'm not saying that we have to swear here, but even with the no profanity rule on this forum, people are still rude to one another or in more often cases, feel that they are superior to other less active/newer members. Just what I think, please consider it before bashing me. I haven't watched the video yet but it's on my to-do list as of today.
> 
> EDIT: what, that got censored? I meant it as an example


 
You should watch it when you get the chance but yeah i agree with you whole hearty


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## JonnyWhoopes (Feb 26, 2012)

JianhanC said:


> The speedcubing community is not one of the friendliest one that I've being on, and it would be very nice if people are nicer to each other. Other communities are full of swearing, cussing and trolling *****ic members but it's all funny and an altogether enjoyable place to be on. I'm not saying that we have to swear here, but even with the no profanity rule on this forum, people are still rude to one another or in more often cases, feel that they are superior to other less active/newer members. Just what I think, please consider it before bashing me. I haven't watched the video yet but it's on my to-do list as of today.
> 
> EDIT: what, that got censored? I meant it as an example


 
I'm afraid I don't quite understand what you just said? The first sentence and the rest of the paragraph seem to have a disconnect that doesn't allow me to make sense of it.


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## tx789 (Feb 26, 2012)

Yo do it is a she
Any way I agree amost all slaed the force cube and most sam v-cubes for coming out with a 3x3 that is silmar to a GuHong


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## JianhanC (Feb 26, 2012)

JonnyWhoopes said:


> I'm afraid I don't quite understand what you just said? The first sentence and the rest of the paragraph seem to have a disconnect that doesn't allow me to make sense of it.


 
I'd been typing a lot of things here and realised that it's not making any sense whatsoever, so I'll just keep it short. On, say, UPSB, we can be friends with almost everyone, but on here, people are a bit reserved towards newer/less active members. On UPSB, you can ask something and you'll get the answer without much bashing (the trolls are usually retired spinners but will still occasionally point you in the right direction) but here you have to consider your question thoroughly present it in a way that will attract as little hostility as possible. I know it sounds very vague and it's hard to produce an example but yes, it happens.


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## JonnyWhoopes (Feb 26, 2012)

JianhanC said:


> I'd been typing a lot of things here and realised that it's not making any sense whatsoever, so I'll just keep it short. On, say, UPSB, we can be friends with almost everyone, but on here, people are a bit reserved towards newer/less active members. On UPSB, you can ask something and you'll get the answer without much bashing (the trolls are usually retired spinners but will still occasionally point you in the right direction) but here you have to consider your question thoroughly present it in a way that will attract as little hostility as possible. I know it sounds very vague and it's hard to produce an example but yes, it happens.


 
Now this I understand quite clearly. Thank you.

It's interesting because I find that this community is one of the friendliest online communities. Sure, we have elitists (myself occasionally included), but at least our trolls are kept under control (relatively) and the bashing/flaming/etc. is being heavily monitored and appropriately dealt with. I don't have experience in the UPSB, but the other forums I'm on are much much worse than here.


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## tx789 (Feb 26, 2012)

I think it has got worse since Sept 2010 when I joined. In 2011 it got worse


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## teller (Feb 26, 2012)

This is one of the cleaner forums on the Internet, I agree. But little boys are aggressive; it's their nature. You see this primal desire to be the alpha dog, an utter of lack of any people skills, and an embarrassing lack of humility. It's gross, even when it manages to stay inside "the rules." If you see it for what it is, it is impossible to be offended by it, any more than you should be offended by a wild animal that means you harm. It doesn't know any better. And just as the anonymous troll feels no real life consequences for their spew, neither should you feel any from it. The helpful and cooperative relationships continue to exist, and that signal comes in much clearer when you simply do not hit the reply button.


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## Godmil (Feb 26, 2012)

Wait, the force cube thread was deleted? But the whole point of that thread was to provide info to less knowledgable cubers who may not have the facts they need to decide if the extra cost of the force cube is worth it... Also it was helping work out if there are some types of ZhanChi that are better than the standard ones. That is as useful information as any other hardware thread. If you didn't like the tone then please start a new theatre with the known conclusions we now have.


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## Tall5001 (Feb 26, 2012)

teller said:


> This is one of the cleaner forums on the Internet, I agree. But little boys are aggressive; it's their nature. You see this primal desire to be the alpha dog, an utter of lack of any people skills, and an embarrassing lack of humility. It's gross, even when it manages to stay inside "the rules." If you see it for what it is, it is impossible to be offended by it, any more than you should be offended by a wild animal that means you harm. It doesn't know any better. And just as the anonymous troll feels no real life consequences for their spew, neither should you feel any from it. The helpful and cooperative relationships continue to exist, and that signal comes in much clearer when you simply do not hit the reply button.


 
Good point i love the simile it make perfect sense and that is a great way of explaining everything i said in the video! thanks for that!


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## Escher (Feb 26, 2012)

+1 for Teller's post. 

Another thing that adds to the elitist environment is the fact that a lot of people learn how to speedcube and somehow believe it reflects their superior intelligence - and thus must go and wave it about to the community. People choose to capitalise on (and end up believing themselves) the popular opinion that 'you must be a maths genius!' to solve a cube.

It's one of the main reasons why I think the community would be infinitely better if it was a lot more popular - although you'd have plenty of 'lower quality beginner' posts, the number of people with a painfully large ego (which rests on the game being elite) would be much lower.

At the end of the day the best thing to do is ignore those who declare themselves elite (or act like it) and give people who love cubing merit. It doesn't really matter who contributes what to the community - as long as people love it enough they'll keep doing so - but the more and more it becomes about one-upmanship the less it will be about improving the community, which is essential in a young sport like this.


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## JianhanC (Feb 26, 2012)

I'm almost done listening, and you went a bit off topic somewhere in the middle. Skrillex <3


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## Stefan (Feb 26, 2012)

"One of the main reasons, I think, is because people are scared that if you teach someone something, they will become better than you at it."
"People are scared of that"
"Why are people scared of that?"
"You shouldn't be scared to help someone"
"want to protect their position"
"they want to protect their rank"

After this I had enough and stopped watching. No idea where you got that from. I doubt anyone is "scared" or worried about their "rank". I think it's more about correcting wrongs and occasionally the mob jumps in and beats people up simply for the fun of it.



Tall5001 said:


> makes me angry when people couldnt be bothered and say tl;dw though they still comment on the video. It makes no sense to me.



He did NOT comment on the video. He commented on your TL;DW. He even explained it even though it was clear already...



tx789 said:


> I think *it has got worse* since Sept 2010 *when I joined*.



Coincidence?


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## Owen (Feb 26, 2012)

I hate elitists and their standards.


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## HelpCube (Feb 26, 2012)

I watched the first three minutes, and liked your points, but you took way too long to get your points across. Just tell me what you want to say, don't have 15 second pauses between each word.


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## vcuber13 (Feb 26, 2012)

Tall5001 said:


> It just makes me angry when people couldnt be bothered and say tl;dw though they still comment on the video. It makes no sense to me.


 
If you don't want someone to comment like that, don't put it in your posts.



Tall5001 said:


> TL;DW i dont like how people treat eachother in the cubing community and here im addressing the problems that i think occur
> 
> Respond how you wish but you might want to think about how you have been acting first!



edit: 11:50 sounds like you just did to me

also, to me it sounds like you don't want people to have opinions


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## StachuK1992 (Feb 26, 2012)

Protecting one's rank has nothing to do with why cubers are angry here.
Cubers are angry here when people post threads that are unresearched, posts that are irrelevant or unconstructive, and just because it's the internet. Internet breeds anger.

Of course cubers have little reason to be angry, but it happens.
The problem happens because of a few select people. I have wanted to get rid of these people for a long time.

In this, you would call me elitist, right? Because I'm trying to get rid of people 'worse' than me, I'm a bad person, right? At least, this is always the reaction I get when I mention something like this here.

This logic is what lets these forums never get better. You're not letting the few people who are actually trying to help the situation do anything about it. In your stubbornness you push the problem closer and closer to the roots. [This isn't directed at OP. I'm just tired of users asking for problems to be solved, then getting pissy when someone tries to do something.]


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## PandaCuber (Feb 26, 2012)

This is why I love 5BLD. He taught me Roux, when he was in the sub 15 area. Nice guy<3
And yes, youre totally right about elitists. It bothers me. 
We are all usernames behind computer screens. 
Make love not war. Teach everyone


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## TheMachanga (Feb 26, 2012)

I have to disagree that people are afraid to teach because they're afraid of someone becoming better than them. I personally haven't seen that happen.


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## a small kitten (Feb 26, 2012)

I don’t really get attacked by people and I don’t do any sort of attacking. I’m just a lurking kitten and I’ve seen a lot of stuff around here.

From my experience, the forum on a whole is very helpful. There is a lot of great content. As Statue mentioned, though, there are a few people that give off a bad impression when they write to others. 

I definitely think some users should work on how they write to other users. However, their behavior is a bit out of our control. Instead, I feel we should work on how to deal with people who seem elitist, overly critical or offensive. Try not to dwell too much on how they say things but what they say. A lot of times good content is packaged in an ugly way. Sure, people who package good things in an ugly way could work on how they present information. That being said, it doesn’t make sense to attack them for their tone or how they are giving you advice. Just get as much from it as you can and move forward. To me, people pushing their “moral high ground” on others is pretty much the same as people displaying their “elitist attitude” in posts. 

We’re on the Internet, so just chill and learn what you can. If you really want to set a good example, use your “better character” when you talk to other people. I think this is smarter than trying to outright change the behavior of other users who seem elitist. This view is pretty much an extension of Aron’s extremely short post on page 1. You can’t expect to completely alter the personalities of users on the internet. However, you can expect to do a good job yourself and set a good example. After all, in my experience, people who are seemingly elitist are a minority here. In this minority, most of the things they post carry useful messages. 

Long story short, be cool and don’t take how things are said too seriously. 

(If something is really bothering you just tell a mod to handle it)


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## ZincK_NOVA (Feb 26, 2012)

Stefan said:


> tx789 said:
> 
> 
> > I think it has got worse since Sept 2010 when I joined.
> ...



I thought you were running for the nicest member?  (although I must admit, this made me giggle)

P.S: No idea if I've quoted correctly or anything; I took a bit of a guess.


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## DavidWoner (Feb 26, 2012)

"People in this community, *and in all communities really*, have a tendency to bicker and fight with each other. And I'm not exactly sure why."

You hit the nail on the head. Welcome to humanity.

The bit about people being scared to teach others is nonsense with no evidence.

The bit about threatening rank is ridiculous too, almost all of the moderators are faster or more knowledgeable than PJK but in no way is his rank being threatened.

This video comes off as kind of conspiracy-theoristy.


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## waffle=ijm (Feb 26, 2012)

internet. lol. 
You can't please all the people all the time, elitist sure can't and moral standing sure can't. But what people can do, it show tough love. We are not a fighting community. We are a nurturing community. We help each other other grow, with toughness to build your character and reward when you do right. How you see take each one determines who you are in this community. Also this is the internet.


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## Stefan (Feb 26, 2012)

ZincK_NOVA said:


> Stefan said:
> 
> 
> > Coincidence?
> ...



To clarify: I know nothing about him/her, just had a little fun with that statement itself, independent of who wrote it. Hope he/she doesn't think I hate him/her for some reason 



ZincK_NOVA said:


> P.S: No idea if I've quoted correctly or anything; I took a bit of a guess.


 
You did (but if you want to check, use Advanced=>Preview).


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## ZincK_NOVA (Feb 26, 2012)

Stefan said:


> To clarify: I know nothing about him/her, just had a little fun with that statement itself, independent of who wrote it. Hope he/she doesn't think I hate him/her for some reason


I cannot speak on behalf of them but, when I first read it, it took a rather blunt, harsh tone in my head; probably due to the lack of any Smilies or something that suggests joking. Maybe that's just me though.




Stefan said:


> You did (but if you want to check, use Advanced=>Preview).


I completely forgot I could do that! Thanks for reminding me


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## Tall5001 (Feb 26, 2012)

Sahid Velji said:


> Not everyone has time to watch a 25 minute video.


 
ok i understand that but then why even comment on it?? just dont watch it??


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## insane569 (Feb 26, 2012)

Tall5001 said:


> ok i understand that but then why even comment on it?? just dont watch it??


 
They didn't watch it but they commented on your video description.


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## Escher (Feb 26, 2012)

Tall5001 said:


> ok i understand that but then why even comment on it?? just dont watch it??


 
'Cause you're commenting on an issue - not raising it. They're just responding to the raised issue (not the raising of the issue) in an appropriate place. I didn't watch your video 'til a good 10 hours after I made my post.


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## Tall5001 (Feb 26, 2012)

insane569 said:


> They didn't watch it but they commented on your video description.


 
yeah i guess. but why bother with it if you dont have time. When i see a video that is too long or not worth watching i skip it and do something else


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## a small kitten (Feb 26, 2012)

Not everyone behaves exactly the same way you do. This is a guess, but perhaps he's telling you to be more concise in the future?

It would also be helpful if you responded to the people who actually raised legitimate concerns about the issue instead of pointing out differences in behavior when presented with a long video. There's a lot of stuff to talk about here. Tangents are silly.


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## Kirjava (Feb 26, 2012)

People seem to think that disagreement is equal to elitism and hatred.

noobs.


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## Tall5001 (Feb 26, 2012)

Escher said:


> +1 for Teller's post.
> 
> Another thing that adds to the elitist environment is the fact that a lot of people learn how to speedcube and somehow believe it reflects their superior intelligence - and thus must go and wave it about to the community. People choose to capitalise on (and end up believing themselves) the popular opinion that 'you must be a maths genius!' to solve a cube.
> 
> ...


 
I love your first point. It is essentially what i was talking about. This post is great and makes perfect sense i wish i could put my thoughts together and present them like this. My video would have been much shorter! Thanks for the clarifications!


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## Christopher Mowla (Feb 26, 2012)

I've watched the entire video. Besides what has been said already about people posting irrelevant things in threads, when new members or beginners (I am not saying they are the same) post something entirely irrelevant in a thread (not even referring to something rude, just something irrelevant), he/she distracts everyone who tries to follow the thread henceforth. Let me explain (so no one should quote what I have written so far without also quoting my explanation below).

In real life, if a group of people are having a detailed conversation and someone else overhears a word or phrase from the group's conversation which makes he or she believe he or she has something to contribute, and he or she blurts out what he or she immediately feels to the group, if it turns out that if what he or she blotted out had nothing to do with the group's conversation, what will be the group's reaction? Well, there are multiple possibilities. If the people in the group are as kind as you hope them to be, they will thank the individual for his or her attempt to add input, but also explain why what he or she said was irrelevant. Then either the individual adjusts and stays with the group to contribute or goes on his or her way. If the individual goes on his or her way, which appears to me to be what most people who post irrelevant things do on these forums (again, I'm not talking about rude individuals or trolls), then the group (in real life) can continue and finish their conversation without further pointless interruption (pointless as in there was no gain in the interruption). Afterwords, if the group wishes to tell others about their conversation, they don't have to mention what the individual who interrupted said (again, we are assuming that the people in the group are NICE, and are not the type to gossip).

Now consider threads on the internet. If someone posts something irrelevant in a thread, it STAYS there, unless it is deleted by a mod (or by the person who posted it). Everyone who reads the thread will have to read (or, relating to the real life example I mentioned before, "hear" the irrelevant comment the individual from the outside said). Day-to-day conversations are only remembered by select people (the people who were involved in the conversation and the people who heard about it from those involved) and only for a certain period of time. Threads, on the other hand, can be read by anyone in the world (stating the obvious in this sentence, obviously) and will last as long as the forum which houses the thread stays live (or how ever long Google cache or some other web page saver keeps the page).

So I can understand why other members get upset when someone posts something irrelevant in a thread, especially if he or she interrupts one of the people contributing to the conversation (for example, when an irrelevant reply is made by the "outsider" instead of by the person who the question was directed towards).

As I mentioned in my real life example, the group can KINDLY mention to the "outsider" why what he or she said was irrelevant, just as mods can delete an irrelevant post and pm the poster (if they are not known in the past as being a troll) or what have you.

But you still really can't blame people who were involved in the conversation in the thread for getting upset (and when people get upset, they say (write) things they don't mean), especially if one of them is interrupted by someone who proves to show that he or she doesn't have anything to contribute to the conversation. This is what I believe the private forums are for (for those who were complaining about it previously), but, again, this post is not mainly about defending the private forum, but rather that people shouldn't get shocked if they post something irrelevant and expect to be patted on the back. Especially, since as I mentioned before, what a person posts is more permanent than what someone says in real life (a post is both put in the memory of people and in the memory of the internet realm which is a "universal memory" in which ANYONE can "hear" about).


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## Tall5001 (Feb 26, 2012)

cmowla said:


> I've watched the entire video. Besides what has been said already about people posting irrelevant things in threads, when new members or beginners (I am not saying they are the same) post something entirely irrelevant in a thread (not even referring to something rude, just something irrelevant), he/she distracts everyone who tries to follow the thread henceforth. Let me explain (so no one should quote what I have written so far without also quoting my explanation below).
> 
> In real life, if a group of people are having a detailed conversation and someone else overhears a word or phrase from the group's conversation which makes he or she believe he or she has something to contribute, and he or she blurts out what he or she immediately feels to the group, if it turns out that if what he or she blotted out had nothing to do with the group's conversation, what will be the group's reaction? Well, there are multiple possibilities. If the people in the group are as kind as you hope them to be, they will thank the individual for his or her attempt to add input, but also explain why what he or she said was irrelevant. Then either the individual adjusts and stays with the group to contribute or goes on his or her way. If the individual goes on his or her way, which appears to me to be what most people who post irrelevant things do on these forums (again, I'm not talking about rude individuals or trolls), then the group (in real life) can continue and finish their conversation without further pointless interruption (pointless as in there was no gain in the interruption). Afterwords, if the group wishes to tell others about their conversation, they don't have to mention what the individual who interrupted said (again, we are assuming that the people in the group are NICE, and are not the type to gossip).
> 
> ...


 
Thats a great example and i guess i had never really thought about it that way.


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## a small kitten (Feb 27, 2012)

This thread is going nowhere.


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## Tall5001 (Feb 27, 2012)

a small kitten said:


> This thread is going nowhere.


 
Its not a big deal i wanted people to watch the video the comments were non relevant. Just to see the reaction on here. The video was just to let my feelings out and let everyone know how i feel. I figured i would have gotten the responses that i did.


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## a small kitten (Feb 27, 2012)

How do you feel about the responses?


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## Tall5001 (Feb 27, 2012)

Pretty much what i expected. I got a bunch of people that agree and understand what im talking about. And there are the people that couldn't careless about the content of the video and just criticized me on the Grammar and Speech, rather then trying to understand what i was trying to get across.


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## a small kitten (Feb 27, 2012)

What about the people that understood what you were trying to get across but still disagreed with you? What do you have to say to them?


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## Kirjava (Feb 27, 2012)

Tall5001 said:


> And there are the people that couldn't careless about the content of the video and just criticized me on the Grammar and Speech, rather then trying to understand what i was trying to get across.


 
Yeah, ignore the people making valid complaints about what you're saying, they're just haters, right?


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## Tall5001 (Feb 27, 2012)

a small kitten said:


> What about the people that understood what you were trying to get across but still disagreed with you? What do you have to say to them?


 
I understand their points i just know its not what i believe.


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## Kirjava (Feb 27, 2012)

Where did you get the idea that people don't want to teach because they're scared of others getting better?

You'd gain a lot more credability if your video didn't contain lies.


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## a small kitten (Feb 27, 2012)

I agree. I think the issue you raise is valid but a lot of your examples and your way of solving the problem are questionable (unsupported).


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## Tall5001 (Feb 27, 2012)

Kirjava said:


> Where did you get the idea that people don't want to teach because they're scared of others getting better?
> 
> You'd gain a lot more credability if your video didn't contain lies.


 
Dude why are you just posting random stuff. Your not being helpful at all. You keep interjecting for no reason. Can i not have a converstation with a small kitten without you trying to prove your points?





a small kitten said:


> I agree. I think the issue you raise is valid but a lot of your examples and your way of solving the problem are questionable (unsupported).


 
Yeah if i had better examples and better ways of supporting/solving it my video would have been better but i came up with this and shot it at 2am so i didnt lose my train of thoughts in the morning.


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## Kirjava (Feb 27, 2012)

Tall5001 said:


> Dude why are you just posting random stuff. Your not being helpful at all. You keep interjecting for no reason. Can i not have a converstation with a small kitten without you trying to prove your points?


 
I'm posting relevant on topic content pertaining to the original post. There is nothing wrong with me posting in this thread. You can continue to converse with whoever you like, I'm not stopping you.

Although it would be nice if you actually replied to my points instead of complaining that I'm posting.


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## a small kitten (Feb 27, 2012)

You have to consider what Kirjava is saying. He is not posting random stuff. It's a bit blunt but it makes perfect sense. Your reaction to Kirjava's post is a prime example of not extrapolating the correct things from posts. My post on page 5 explains this, if you're interested. 

Not extrapolating the correct things from posts (taking critical ways of presenting information too seriously) is a large factor in people getting upset here. I don't think many of these people should be upset in the first place.


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## cubernya (Feb 27, 2012)

Tall5001 said:


> Dude why are you just posting random stuff. Your not being helpful at all. You keep interjecting for no reason. Can i not have a converstation with a small kitten without you trying to prove your points?


 
It's not random, it's relating to the topic of this thread. He has as much reason as needed for a post, which is continuing and contributing to the topic. You can have a conversation all you wish, but he can prove his points all he wants to as well. There's nothing wrong with Thom posting his points about the topic.


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## aronpm (Feb 27, 2012)

I would like to ask, since names have been named, why some people consider me an elitist (one of the most elitist, even!). I do not believe that I am an elitist, by any means. In fact, if you ask the people who have sent me messages asking for help or advice, you'd find out that I always reply nicely and helpfully (the only exception being if somebody is sending me so many messages that it borders on spam, in which case I opt to ignore them instead of responding negatively). 

I even have been asked question by about 3 or 4 people of the 3x3 Average top-100, who clearly have the potential to outmatch me in execution if they used the same method as me (as for memo, that's practice), so if you want to say that I only help "noobs" (because for some reason you think that I think that these people can't be faster than me), that is clearly wrong.


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## insane569 (Feb 27, 2012)

aronpm said:


> I would like to ask, since names have been named, why some people consider me an elitist (one of the most elitist, even!). I do not believe that I am an elitist, by any means. In fact, if you ask the people who have sent me messages asking for help or advice, you'd find out that I always reply nicely and helpfully (the only exception being if somebody is sending me so many messages that it borders on spam, in which case I opt to ignore them instead of responding negatively).
> 
> I even have been asked question by about 3 or 4 people of the 3x3 Average top-100, who clearly have the potential to outmatch me in execution if they used the same method as me (as for memo, that's practice), so if you want to say that I only help "noobs" (because for some reason you think that I think that these people can't be faster than me), that is clearly wrong.


 
Honestly, I don't find you or anyone else here an elitist at all. You have a high post count so its not like you're all "I'm to good for these n00bs. I'm just not gonna post or offer my support".
If all your post are just flaming or insults I'm pretty sure a mod would have deleted them so some of the post might be but I highly doubt a high majority of them are. No one on this forum is an elitist IMO.


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## Bob (Feb 27, 2012)

insane569 said:


> Honestly, I don't find you or anyone else here an elitist at all. You have a high post count so its not like you're all "I'm to good for these n00bs. I'm just not gonna post or offer my support".
> If all your post are just flaming or insults I'm pretty sure a mod would have deleted them so some of the post might be but I highly doubt a high majority of them are. No one on this forum is an elitist IMO.


 
I hardly think post count correlates with being an elitist.


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## insane569 (Feb 27, 2012)

Bob said:


> I hardly think post count correlates with being an elitist.


 
Exactly. If he was an elitist and spammed and flamed everyone he came across he would either be banned or have alot of post removed. No one on here is an elitist and if some one thinks that someone here is please do tell.


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## insane569 (Feb 27, 2012)

Sahid Velji said:


> I doubt that anyone claims to be an elitist and we need the OP to define the members that he thinks are elitist, so that we can address that issue.
> 
> The issue is being taken way too far here, all he was trying to say (correct me if I'm wrong) is that some people troll and/or make rude posts sometimes (or some posts are stated in such a direct and straightforward manner, that some get offended by them). Now there are obviously some statements in that video that contain lies (or mistakes, if you will) which make the video questionable.


 
Yea some people here troll and some people here might be rude to others. But you can't say that they haven't contributed some where in the community. We joke around here and sometimes it does go alittle too far but in the end we have all helped someone out on here. I really don't see any problems. The mods keep everything here friendly.


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## Cool Frog (Feb 27, 2012)

Well what he said in the video, Aron wouldn't be considered an elitist since he would help out a person that isn't as fast as him.

He is probably one of the nicest cubers I know! Helped me with quite a bit of comms for my 3style list and helped a bunch for Ryan Reese's list. He seemed concerned when I was in the hospital a long time ago (Even though we didn't talk much before that)

Aron is a cool guy bruh


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## TimMc (Feb 27, 2012)

*Are 13-year-olds welcome here?*

*Are we a community that welcomes younger members and newcomers?*

Is there any reason why you would advise against participating on this forum?

*RTFM*
Is it better to read all the available material in the wiki before posting? Do people know what a wiki is? Is the information there intelligible?

Is there an expectation that everyone here must know full Fridrich before posting?

*Answers*
Would an "Answer" (knowledge base) system be more appropriate for the majority of the forum content? Several companies have moved toward this (e.g. atlassian) so that existing answers are returned as a user is typing in their question. If there's no matching answer then the user proceeds to ask (as opposed to searching thousands of threads full of intelligible "conversations").

Tim.


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## Godmil (Feb 27, 2012)

Ok watched the whole video (minus the last minute as my headphone battery died.)
There was an awful lot of strawmen and insustantiated claims, what I wont go into in too much detail in case it is misconstrued as too negative.

Maybe a big place where you had a misunderstanding was compairing people on youtube who randomly flame things they don't like, and arguments on a subject in the forums. One is just trying to force their personal subjective opinion, the other is trying to construcively find a truth that is benefitial to the community as a whole. On here people argue about if Colour Neutrality is worth it, or if one lube is better than the other, or if a new method has merit, because that will shape the development of cubing in the future... it is actually good for new cubers. I fear the way you proposed it, people could still be using Vasaline because nobody should criticise it as that's only their personal opinion and you shouldn't criticise other for theirs.

Concerning elitism about speed and people not wanting to teach others incase it makes them better than them. Do you know of any secret methods or algorithms that only one person knows because they refuse to share it with the community? I do. Snyder... particularly method 3 which he says he's wanting people to give him money to develop and release. But that is so incredibly far from the norm. All the top cubers have released their PLL algs and done videos of their F2L techniques - even contributed to providing reconstructions. If there is one thing I've thought was exceptional about this community is that nobody is interested in keeping secrets, everyone is willing to help others get faster (That's why the whole Zeroing thing was so funny).

Also from my experience... given that I'm typically very opinionated, I've never once been criticised for not knowing what I was talking about it because I'm not fast, and the only time I've been criticised on hardware topics was one person who said I didn't have enough cubes to make a comparison, but he was a youTube cuber (who nolonger has an account on these forums).

I've been on the same side as you in some debates (I'm a big supporter of Lubix), however I've never felt like I was criticised for that. If you have logic, reason and evidence to bring to a discussion, you can only add benefinitially to the argument and help come to a conclusion that will benefit the commnunity. Though I have seen people blurt out random opinions as facts and been dismissed for it, but that's what needs to happen in constructive arguements, it can't be taken personally.

I'd like to give a couple more examples of people not being hostile to beginners (because they're beginners)... Member Introductions Sub-forum there is never a bad word said there.

Further, you were talking about finding out what good cubes to get and from where when you're a beginner: "What cube should I get?" The Cube Choice Question Thread
If anyone posts in there saying "I'm new. What are good cubes?" they ALWAYS get a polite and helpful reply, even if it's something that has been asked before a thousand times. Similarly when people ask what method they should use, they usually get given options with links to where they can get more information.

The only time I can think when a beginner will get criticised is when they break the forum rules, or are rude/arrogant... and then it's not *because* they are beginners.

A large chunk of your video was against random internet hate (like racism), which is fine to be critical of... but that completely doesn't apply on these forums. Lets pick a topic that recieves a lot of internet hate... I haven't read the "sexuality" thred on this forum, but I bet you anything it's not full of people saying "F*****g F**!" If anything I've found the cubing community to be far more accepting than other internet communities.

And lastly, on the Force cube issue. It was more of a hot topic than normal because there was money involved. When something that can be considered 'false advertisings' is promoting a possibly over expensive product to new cubers, it should in the communities best interest to find out accurate information and have it available to provide the best consumer advice. This isn't a huge issue for old cubers who know their stuff, but for new cubers who could mistakenly be spending more money than they should. The easiest way to show that this topic was proportional to the effects on the community is simply to show you the EXACT same topic that came up on this boards a week before the force cube:



JohnLaurain said:


> I've heard that stickerless Dayan cubes are better than regular Dayan cubes, so does that mean that you can buy 6 stickerless cubes, make 6 solid color cubes with the stickerless cubes, sticker the new solid color cubes, and then have really good cubes?





Godmil said:


> You don't need to dismantle the 6-colour cubes because the individual colours are sold as cubes already. (if it is the plastic that's making the significant difference)



That was the whole conversation. There was no need to be strongly criticial of the idea because there were no inflated claims or advertising for products involved... nobody was being asked by JohnLaurain to spend money on something that was "guarenteed to make them faster".

And lastly at the very end of your video you said concerning the start of the Force cube argument something like... why didn't someone just politely comment to say what the issue was... that is exactly what me and some other people did, but all our comments were rudely shot down, so it didn't seem like youTube would be a good place to make the correct infomation available.

Bit long, but not as long as the video


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## Kirjava (Feb 27, 2012)

Godmil said:


> Do you know of any secret methods or algorithms that only one person knows because they refuse to share it with the community? I do. Snyder... particularly method 3 which he says he's wanting people to give him money to develop and release.


 
I don't believe that "Snyder Method 3" exists or ever will exist. Please do not give money to that charlatan.


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## Godmil (Feb 27, 2012)

Kirjava said:


> I don't believe that "Snyder Method 3" exists or ever will exist. Please do not give money to that charlatan.



Yes, and so it is in the cubing communities best interest to criticise this, and protect those people who would waste money on it....

... or we could bash Kirjava for being negative and tell him to not make any comments since he clearly hasn't tried Snyder Method 3 himself.


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## irontwig (Feb 27, 2012)

"Brevity is the soul of wit."
William Shakespeare


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## JLarsen (Feb 27, 2012)

I didn't watch the video but I'm sure I get the general idea just from reading the thread. I'll make a conscious effort to be a better person on the forum and leave my ego somewhere else.


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## Sillas (Feb 27, 2012)

Nice and truth. I am in favor of ethics and respect too.
Respecting others you will be respected. Common sense and education is the key.


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## Sa967St (Feb 27, 2012)

The Force Cube thread is back up, but there's been a thread clean-up. Keep it civil.

http://www.speedsolving.com/forum/showthread.php?35554-The-Force-Cube


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## chris410 (Feb 27, 2012)

First thing to realize is that for the most part people are very different here on the forums than they are in person. I agree with most that a lot of times people will give people a hard time if they ask questions that have already been answered. The mods have gone out of their way to prevent this yet it still happens simply because people do not follow simple guidelines. I have seen people politely warned and when they continue to make posts which essentially pollute the forums they are treated harshly yet politely (in terms of Internet conduct). Mistakes will happen, and that is ok as long as we try to avoid making the same mistakes over and over.

As many others I belong to other forums and I agree, this is by far one of the cleanest most informational/helpful forums I have ever been on, and that is due to the mods/and users coming together to maintain order. As some of you know, I also race motorcycles and trust me when I say that the egos here are NOTHING compared to what you will find in a more aggressive sport like motorcycle racing so any "harshness" is by far nothing compared to what you will find on other forums. I bring this up because I have seen very good forums turn into a very bad forum because the mods did not control people's posts/attitudes. I have experienced this before and I would hate to see the same thing happen here. One of the motorcycle forums was excellent and I had no problem helping new riders. As time went on and the site grew, we had some "ego" riders posting garbage posts and this began to change the tone of nearly everyone's posts on the forum. The once informational forum turned into a useless forum and the people who had actual knowledge to help others eventually left. This bothers me to this day because I enjoyed helping newer riders and now, I stop helping because each time the effort is made someone chimes in and detracts from the posts. The same could and would happen here if the mods/users do not all work together to keep the site productive. 

I know both sides because I am very respected on racing forums because of my experience/skill and here I am essentially a beginner when it comes to cubing. It comes down to the beginners learning from the experts and the experts helping the beginners who are making the effort. Not only should this happen here but at competitions as well when it comes to listening to the people who organize and run the competitions. 

Teller stated it very well, take the posts for what they are and do not take them personally. One thing to note is that often the words are read differently than intended so what is missing from posts is "tone". I think this is an excellent forum and there are plenty of people willing to help others. As with anything, we will have people who come to the site with little to add and sadly some who want to do nothing more than start trouble. I commend the mods for handling those people quickly because if they are tolerated the forums can quickly lose quality.

We will always have people who are more respected because of their skills however, I have yet to see any of them attack others. When you look at percentages, cubing is not a popular "sport" so I do think it is important to help those who are willing to put in the time to improve and put the work into their solving. The people who come here and detract and make posts which add nothing should be removed or banned. If cubing were to turn into an elitist sport, it would honestly falter because you would have a concentrated group of people who cube and it would not grow when those people get older and move on. I do think it is important to maintain some level of support for those who want to work on improving. 

In the end...whether you are "fast" or "slow" it all comes down to who you are...positive or negative. My advice is set the example...don't become the example!

Edit: I do not agree about people being worried about someone getting faster. I have seen people sharing algorithms and making tutorials to help others so, I do not agree with that portion of your statements. Again, cubing is actually very similar to motorcycle racing in more ways that one would imagine and the "fast" people typically have that extra "gift" which sets them apart. If anything, I think the fast cubers would welcome the challenge of someone becoming faster and pushing the boundaries of their talents. I know when I am out on the track I welcome people who are faster than me because it pushes me...riding with someone who is slower than me does absolutely nothing for me other than allowing me to work with someone. The day we stop pushing for faster times is the day competitive cubing comes to an end. Why do most go to competitions? Very few have a chance of winning, the majority go to improve on their own times and this is what drives people to practice and go to competitions. Believe it or not, the same goes with racing as well. And I can tell you that sometimes, winning takes away the "fun" when it comes to racing because once you do get to that point people begin to expect the performances so remembering the fun aspect is critical if you want to continue to excel at cubing or anything else in life.


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## Jaycee (Feb 27, 2012)

I was going to say that aronpm strikes me as kind of an elitist but then I realized there's a difference between that and being bluntly rude ._. Nothing against you, Aron (in fact I admire you.. sometimes.), I just feel that you can be very harsh when speaking what's the truth most of the time.


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## 5BLD (Feb 27, 2012)

What i find interesting is my view of what elitism actually is as i get more experienced in the forum. Its almost embarrassing looking back to who/what i thought an elitist was and my interpretation nowadays is different.

We also need to differentiate between elitists and people who don't bother phrasing things nicely and sometimes just say the blunt truth (which I'm actually becoming more of a fan of)

I actually really _admire_ how people like for example aronpm above can get straight to the point and say their opinions( - yet never get badly shot down.)

Everything else i wanted to say was basically said already here.


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## Tall5001 (Feb 27, 2012)

JLarsen said:


> I didn't watch the video but I'm sure I get the general idea just from reading the thread. I'll make a conscious effort to be a better person on the forum and leave my ego somewhere else.


 
see thats all i was trying to get across. Thanks for understanding!


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## TimMc (Feb 28, 2012)

5BLD said:


> I actually really _admire_ how people like for example aronpm above can get straight to the point and say their opinions( - yet never get badly shot down.)



Yes, it's a good quality to be confident when expressing your opinion.

I've seen a few opinions that were expressed after having been built up over time on the basis of lies or half-truths. This can cause a divide in the community when certain people know "the full story", yet they allow others to save face by not divulging the truth when they're at the receiving end of someone throwing insults. However, quarrels sometimes provide entertainment and serve as a great distraction while the real underlying issues aren't being addressed.

Tim.


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## StachuK1992 (Feb 28, 2012)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyberbully_(film)


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## Arkwell (Feb 29, 2012)

It's Junior/High School hierarchy with a hint of bullying coming to SS. I remember when it was fun to post but sometimes I'm scared to ask the simplest question. Hope it changes because none of us was born knowing how to cube. Great post!


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## a small kitten (Feb 29, 2012)

Don't be scared.


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## Bob (Feb 29, 2012)

a small kitten said:


> Don't be scared.


 
But small kittens are scary!


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## Kirjava (Mar 1, 2012)

Reading this topic is frustrating.

It seems that many in the community are cynical about the intentions of users they see as 'elitist haters'. They are quick to jump on any sort of disagreement (that has no malicous intent) and label it an attack. Often this is an attempt to help users. This was recently seen in the force cube thread when after attempting to educate people about the true nature of the cube before they spent money on it, there was a flood of complaints about this behaviour - no of them valid. 

Another good example is in this thread. After questioning the original poster about the outright lies in his video, he completely ignored the actual issue and claimed I was posting 'random stuff'. 

The people being labeled as attackers or elitists seem to be the only ones getting attacked.


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## Arkwell (Mar 1, 2012)

Kirjava said:


> Reading this topic is frustrating.
> 
> It seems that many in the community are cynical about the intentions of users they see as 'elitist haters'. They are quick to jump on any sort of disagreement (that has no malicous intent) and label it an attack. Often this is an attempt to help users. This was recently seen in the force cube thread when after attempting to educate people about the true nature of the cube before they spent money on it, there was a flood of complaints about this behaviour - no of them valid.
> 
> ...



Actually I wasn't referring to the Force Cube because any post saving me money on a cube that's no that different than the rest is cool. I'm more talking about as a noob you're going to ask some dumb questions and it was cool when people responded with a laugh but it but now it like going to driving school with the pissed off instructor that tells you 'how could you be so dumb' all the time. All noobs are going to ask dumb questions until we get better, there should be a way to delete them once we realize how dumb but don't beat us over the head(Not you personally, you're cool)


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## jskyler91 (Mar 1, 2012)

Kirjava said:


> Reading this topic is frustrating.
> 
> It seems that many in the community are cynical about the intentions of users they see as 'elitist haters'. They are quick to jump on any sort of disagreement (that has no malicous intent) and label it an attack. Often this is an attempt to help users. This was recently seen in the force cube thread when after attempting to educate people about the true nature of the cube before they spent money on it, there was a flood of complaints about this behaviour - no of them valid.
> 
> ...


 
The problem is that even if you are trying to say something with good intentions, some things are just mean, elitist and not allowed. Calling someone's ideas dumb, unoriginal or false is just rude and inconsiderate. Sure what they might be saying is rather simplistic or something that has been said a million times before or false in your opinion, but that doesn't mean that you have the right to be a jerk to them or to talk down to them. People often put a lot of times into their ideas, posts and videos and we should respect that time by being courteous in how we speak to them. This forum is supposed to be a place where people can feel comfortable to ask questions and propose ideas, but lately it has, as Arkwell said above, it has just been a scary place where people feel like they have to be sub 12 in order to post anything. This is not what the forum was made to be nor does the constant hating that is causing this feeling at all follow the site rules: http://www.speedsolving.com/forum/rules.php

Also TimMC, while I agree that being honest is important, you still need to be considerate of other people's feelings. Just as you *shouldn't * call other people fat who are in fact fat because it is rude and hurtful, you should likewise not call people dumb who may in fact be dumb.


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## a small kitten (Mar 1, 2012)

jskyler, I am afraid I have to disagree with you. 

You label Kirjava's post as rude and inconsiderate because it seems obvious to you that it is rude and inconsiderate. However, I can argue that the original poster's video is also rude and inconsiderate. He accuses the community of many bad things. These things, like "not wanting to help others in order to protect rank" for example, are completely untrue and unsupported. In simplest terms, he's taking verbal jabs at the community disguised (intentionally or unintentionally) as a plea to "make the community better". I find this even more rude. It amazes me how people have the nerve to judge a community like this; especially when the supporting evidence is faulty. 

Kirjava does cross the line sometimes. However, like I said on page 5, don't be so hurt on the internet. He may flaunt the rules, but there is a lot to learn from him. Focus on and respect the content of his posts. You seem to entirely focus on _the way_ he says things; not _what _he says. Please figure out _*what*_ he says. That is the real discussion; not this empty and meaningless appeal to pathos.

Also, just because people put a lot of time into things, doesn't make what they criticism-proof. I'm sure you can find many historical examples.

Also, calling something "false" does not automatically render the comment "rude and inconsiderate". That is a childish assumption. Again, examples are easy to find.

Another also: I don't find anything wrong with your statement "This forum is supposed to be a place where people can feel comfortable to ask questions and propose ideas". However, posting a video that uses faulty reasoning to judge the community doesn't qualify as "comfortable question asking" or "idea proposing". It's childish.


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## aronpm (Mar 1, 2012)

jskyler91 said:


> Also TimMC, while I agree that being honest is important, you still need to be considerate of other people's feelings. Just as you *shouldn't * call other people fat who are in fact fat because it is rude and hurtful, you should likewise not call people dumb who may in fact be dumb.


 
You need to be considerate of that fact that this only applies in some cultures.

Americans are over-sensitive.


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## AvidCuber (Mar 1, 2012)

I'm not meaning to jump into an argument here, but I just thought that I would give my opinion on the matter.

Reading through this thread, I think that people have just come to expect snide or sarcastic remarks from certain users and, when these people reply to them with seemingly snide or sarcastic remarks, they immediately assume that they're being attacked. I think it all has to do with labels; we put labels on certain people because that's what we've come to expect of them. Like, if there was this one user who would post a new thread every single time he/she bought a new cube and write a terrible review with bad grammar and unhelpful information, then everyone would come to think of that user as 'the guy with terrible reviews'. Likewise, the people who consistently post snide, sarcastic, or blunt remarks are often thought of as mean or elitist, when it really depends on the situation.

I don't entirely agree with everything that was said in the video, but I think that the thing causing this seemingly constant condescension accorded especially to the newcomers is just labelling others because that's how we expect them to act, and then we instantly think that they're being rude just because that's how they usually seem.

By the way, I'm not trying to point fingers at anyone (labelling is in our nature, after all, and some people's labels just stand out more than others).


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## jskyler91 (Mar 1, 2012)

a small kitten said:


> jskyler, I am afraid I have to disagree with you.
> 
> You label Kirjava's post as rude and inconsiderate because it seems obvious to you that it is rude and inconsiderate. However, I can argue that the original poster's video is also rude and inconsiderate. He accuses the community of many bad things. These things, like "not wanting to help others in order to protect rank" for example, are completely untrue and unsupported. In simplest terms, he's taking verbal jabs at the community disguised (intentionally or unintentionally) as a plea to "make the community better". I find this even more rude. It amazes me how people have the nerve to judge a community like this; especially when the supporting evidence is faulty.
> 
> ...



First, and foremost, I never claimed Kirjava's post to be rude or inconsiderate, in fact I thought he used a great deal of tact in how he worded it, I was just simply stating that I do not agree with him as to what he said, just as you are also saying a similar thing to me right now. Also, I think that your comment on my comment is the perfect example of what I am saying. You are calling me "childish" for claiming things which are part of the site rules to be true. To label me childish is incredibly rude to me and quite simply false, I have no idea how old you are but I am 21 years old and far from childish. I understand what you are trying to say i.e. that my claims are naive and don't reflect the world as they are, but the way you word things comes off as unnecessarily rude and mean. Again, not harm done, just pointing this fact out. 

Sure it may be true that American's have a different definition about what is rude, but that doesn't mean that you should only do what you wish and disregard other people's cultures. Some cultures find things rude that I think are perfectly fine like holding hands in public or cursing, but I don't flaunt those things on this forum. By joining this forum we ALL agreed to the site rules, and those rules are, for better of worse, made in an American style of sensibility and thus we all need to respect them.


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## buelercuber (Mar 1, 2012)

People like that are pretty much nor mal MOD's. they have this right to ban you over anything, so they have this false titlement of power in taste. so they use this to their advantage and become total *******s. and it's not only mods, it's the people who have lower standings in power. it's not fair, it's just the way communities are. *******s find their way to **** with people. it's who they are.

This is also shown at competitions, they carry their attitude from the forum to real life; maybe not in real life, but at least real cubing life. and it bugs me, it's like real life bullies, even in this small quiet "nice" community.


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## a small kitten (Mar 1, 2012)

> You are calling me "childish" for claiming things which are part of the site rules to be true. To label me childish is incredibly rude to me and quite simply false, I have no idea how old you are but I am 21 years old and far from childish.



I did not call or label you "childish". I said the assumption was childish (and it is). Your age has nothing to do with the degree of childishness some of your assumptions might have. And, you did not understand what I was trying to say. Don't pretend to. Just ask for clarification.

Also, your post doesn't even address the issues we are bringing up. The bulk of it is trying to assess how "rude" people are.


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## jskyler91 (Mar 1, 2012)

a small kitten said:


> I did not call or label you "childish". I said the assumption was childish (and it is). Your age has nothing to do with the degree of childishness some of your assumptions might have. And, you did not understand what I was trying to say. Don't pretend to. Just ask for clarification.


 
Ok, I am not going to continue this, but just reread your last few posts to me and you will see my point. The way you are treating me is as if you think me to be your lesser i.e. incapable of understanding simple arguments and in need of YOUR help. This treatment of of members of the forum is unnecessary and against the site rules. That is all that I am claiming and attempting to refute me in a hostile way just further proves my and Tall5001's points.


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## Specs112 (Mar 1, 2012)

Sahid Velji said:


> Please provide an example of a competition that you have been to where someone felt the need to bully or felt more powerful over another person.


 
People at MIT Spring thought it was funny that I fell down the stairs.


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## aronpm (Mar 1, 2012)

Specs112 said:


> People at MIT Spring thought it was funny that I fell down the stairs.


 
So did people not at MIT Spring


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## buelercuber (Mar 1, 2012)

Sahid Velji said:


> Please provide an example of a competition that you have been to where someone felt the need to bully or felt more powerful over another person.


 
During competitions, I do see groups of "better" cubers and their groups, and if you try to do anything with ti, they just exclude you for being worse then you, even if it is a few seconds different(it's not a srtaight out :"GET UT OF HERE" it's more like "oh you don't know how to do that?" kind of sarcastic and back handed insults) and if mods or higher in power people on the forum, come to competitions they sometimes feel the need to bring their internet power to real life, and it's not needed on the forum, nor real life.


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## Specs112 (Mar 1, 2012)

aronpm said:


> So did people not at MIT Spring


 
Touché.


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## Bob (Mar 1, 2012)

buelercuber said:


> During competitions, I do see groups of "better" cubers and their groups, and if you try to do anything with ti, they just exclude you for being worse then you, even if it is a few seconds different(it's not a srtaight out :"GET UT OF HERE" it's more like "oh you don't know how to do that?" kind of sarcastic and back handed insults) and if mods or higher in power people on the forum, come to competitions they sometimes feel the need to bring their internet power to real life, and it's not needed on the forum, nor real life.


 
The same happens to me sometimes, too. Everybody's always making fun of me for starting the "C bar" OLL alg with B'. I'm over it, though, and I finally learned R' U' (sledgehammer) U R.


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## Kirjava (Mar 1, 2012)

jskyler91 said:


> ... The way you are treating me is as if you think me to be your lesser ...


 
Perfect example of what I was talking about.


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## ZincK_NOVA (Mar 4, 2012)

I would say I'm pretty much a noob to this forum (you're welcome to disagree with me if you think otherwise, although I doubt anybody will).

So far I think I have had no attacks for being a noob from more familiar users. Whilst at the time one or two did seem like they had hurtful intention, I will admit those posts were on a topic which was more suited for experienced solvers to answer (and I probably said something dumb). Those threads were closed shortly after anyway (yes, I am referring to the "new WCA proposed events for 2012" threads). My first point is that I probably got the replies that I did indiscriminate of whether I was a noob or not; simply because of what I was suggesting.

My second point is that I often ask questions when I don't quite understand. people don't yell at me for being an uneducated ape, they try their best to explain their point. Sometimes it does seem like they have a rather blunt tone but, I would guess that is because this is not Facebook; over-use of smilies isn't as common here. People try their best to use correct spelling and punctuation because points can become unclear when phrased in text-speak or something along those lines.

My final point is that, in most cases, the experienced like to mingle with the experienced. Imagine you're one of the best at ____: you'd prefer to talk about ____ with people who are at your skill level because that is more likely to encourage improvement than having to explain the basic concepts of ____ to rookies. You'd probably try your best to be considerate of these rookies but, you're more likely to prefer the company of people at your skill level. You're not being mean, you're just trying to improve.

I'm not sure if my final point applies, but it is how I know I feel in that situation. Feel free to ignore it if it's utter bull***t.
Just wanted to share my personal view of this situation and this forum.


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## 5BLD (Mar 4, 2012)

Of course as you become more experienced you'll experience fewer attacks. When I first joined I was attacked many times but a big factor probably was also that I myself was annoying. 

Now I am fairly well respected, feel free to disagree but I think one f the big reasons is that not only when you're a nub no one knows you, but also you're inexperienced forum-wise and for communicating on the internet which gives a higher chance of being attacked by the more experienced.

Yah go ahead delete this post if it seems irrelevant.


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## JianhanC (Mar 4, 2012)

Another random thing that I'd like to mention is that some people who are not that experienced, have been on the forums for a while and hung out with the cooler cubers at comps, feel that they are already superior than newer members, and 'attack' them. When the experienced cubers mention a point in a slightly aggressive way but with the good intention of correcting someone, the 'not that experienced' members jump in and agree vigorously with the veteran cuber who brought up the point, and even humiliating the OP even more, for what I do not know, but it seems to be that they are trying to fit in. I prefer not to mention any names, there are some guys here that posts like that but hey, it's the Internet and everyone has the right to express his/her views and I'm trying to deal with it, it's my problem. Even in this post I'm carefully picking my words so as to present my view in the least hurtful manner possible.


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## Kirjava (Mar 4, 2012)

JianhanC said:


> When the experienced cubers mention a point in a slightly aggressive way but with the good intention of correcting someone, the 'not that experienced' members jump in and agree vigorously with the veteran cuber who brought up the point


 
This also reflects badly on the experienced cuber.


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## JianhanC (Mar 4, 2012)

Kirjava said:


> This also reflects badly on the experienced cuber.


 
Not really. When guys like you or Stefan point something out, it's usually not in the nicest way, but you guys at the very least you know what you're talking about (I mean c'mon, you sub 20 with 20 different methods <3) but those guys aren't cubing long enough to be judging somebody new, especially so harshly.

To be fair, cubers I met in real life are actually very nice. Maybe they're an exception but no one made me feel left out in my first comp. Jon taught me how to be a scrambler and a judge, Amos taught some guy M2 while I watched, Jon and Amos were doing teamsolves against Asia and Nipat (or some matchup of that kind), and I raced Francis (an embarassing loss). I'm really shy irl, but that comp was a blast and cubers are super nice people.


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