# Official WR average has gone! (10.07)



## Yes We Can! (Oct 4, 2009)

I wonder, if there already is a thread about that topic, but:

Today, when I checked the WCA page, the WR avg was 10.63 (also Zolnowski).


WTH?!?! Tomasz Zolnkowski's WR avg 10.07 has gone!
Probably because of the timer malfunction.

Now the WR is easier to beat at WC for all the Top-cubers!


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## Anthony (Oct 4, 2009)

As of right now, it's as if he never had a first round 3x3 average at the Polish Open.


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## Tim Major (Oct 4, 2009)

Yes said:


> I wonder, if there already is a thread about that topic, but:
> 
> Today, when I checked the WCA page, the WR avg was 10.63 (also Zolnowski).
> 
> ...


I pointed this out an a few minutes before you posted this thread.


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## amostay2004 (Oct 4, 2009)

Was it even on the records page before? 

I have to admit, I'm a little glad, partly due to the timer malfunctions and that 10.07 was too big an improvement on the current WR  I'd like to see it go sub-10.5 first (at WC )


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## MAHTI-ANSSI (Oct 4, 2009)

I think the average should be 10.80, (DNF), 12.08, 9.77, (8.68) => 10.88


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## Lucas Garron (Oct 4, 2009)

There is no customary announcement, which is rather puzzling. Considering precedents (and factors like Zolnowski already having the average), I think the WCA could rightfully remove the average from that round, but there has always been an immediate explanation.


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## Yes We Can! (Oct 4, 2009)

ZB_FTW!!! said:


> I pointed this out an a few minutes before you posted this thread.



Congratulations!


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## Novriil (Oct 4, 2009)

I think also the same as Anssi.

I don't think that shaking hands etc. is timers fault.. For example on Finnish Open on my best solve it wasn't timers fault that I didn't wait for the green light on the stackmat.

The stackmat malfunction what was on the vid (some 0.73 sec or something) wasn't a malfunction I think.


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## Bryan (Oct 4, 2009)

Can someone explain what the timer malfunction was?


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## PCwizCube (Oct 4, 2009)

Bryan said:


> Can someone explain what the timer malfunction was?


It's in this video:
http://www.speedsolving.com/forum/showthread.php?t=15849


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## Bryan (Oct 4, 2009)

Rubik's Cube Fan said:


> Bryan said:
> 
> 
> > Can someone explain what the timer malfunction was?
> ...



OK, so a timer malfunction where the timer stopped at .19 and .13....


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## PCwizCube (Oct 4, 2009)

Bryan said:


> Rubik's Cube Fan said:
> 
> 
> > Bryan said:
> ...


Yeah, in that thread I linked to you, people discuss about the "timer malfunction". Most people agree that .19 and .13 are not timer malfunctions, but the user accidentally stopped the timer like that. So if those times were really .19 and .13 (WCA regulations you can't count on video evidence), then those times would be considered as DNFs and the average wouldn't count.


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## Bryan (Oct 4, 2009)

Rubik's Cube Fan said:


> (WCA regulations you can't count on video evidence)



In that same thread, it also states that the WCA board is allowed to use video evidence all they want :fp

anyway, I don't think the timer is heat sensitive, because I I blew on a towel and put that on my timer and it wouldn't stop it. 

The patent seems to indicate they use a capacitive antenna.


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## amostay2004 (Oct 4, 2009)

Rubik's Cube Fan said:


> Yeah, in that thread I linked to you, people discuss about the "timer malfunction". Most people agree that .19 and .13 are not timer malfunctions, but the user accidentally stopped the timer like that. So if those times were really .19 and .13 (WCA regulations you can't count on video evidence), then those times would be considered as DNFs and the average wouldn't count.



If the 2 times were considered DNFs and the average a DNF, technically he would have gotten last place in the first round and would not have qualified even for the second round. Which means he could not be the winner of Polish Open (would that also mean his 2nd and 3rd round's average should be deleted off WCA's database?)


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## PCwizCube (Oct 4, 2009)

Bryan said:


> Rubik's Cube Fan said:
> 
> 
> > (WCA regulations you can't count on video evidence)
> ...


I never said they couldn't. I was trying to say that you couldn't 100% assume that you could take evidence from videos. I don't think the WCA board fully made their decision not to count the average from the video, because I don't think it would have taken a week. They probably discussed it with the delegate who was there, and that delegate may have been watching Tomasz's solves.



amostay2004 said:


> If the 2 times were considered DNFs and the average a DNF, technically he would have gotten last place in the first round and would not have qualified even for the second round. Which means he could not be the winner of Polish Open (would that also mean his 2nd and 3rd round's average should be deleted off WCA's database?)


Yeah I agree. It's kind of weird.


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## TMOY (Oct 4, 2009)

amostay2004 said:


> If the 2 times were considered DNFs and the average a DNF, technically he would have gotten last place in the first round and would not have qualified even for the second round. Which means he could not be the winner of Polish Open (would that also mean his 2nd and 3rd round's average should be deleted off WCA's database?)


The WCA rules say "at least one competitor must not proceed to the newt round". They don't say it has to be the one who finished last. So there's no contradiction here, he's officially ranked last in the 1st round but wins the competition anyway.


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## Crazycubemom (Oct 4, 2009)

Yes said:


> *Now the WR is easier to beat at WC for all the Top-cubers!*





Yes indeed by *Tomasz Zolnowski*


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## JLarsen (Oct 4, 2009)

Yeah I can't say I've ever had a malfunction above .05 before, but then again these mats are probably very worn.


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## PCwizCube (Oct 4, 2009)

TMOY said:


> amostay2004 said:
> 
> 
> > If the 2 times were considered DNFs and the average a DNF, technically he would have gotten last place in the first round and would not have qualified even for the second round. Which means he could not be the winner of Polish Open (would that also mean his 2nd and 3rd round's average should be deleted off WCA's database?)
> ...


But 33 people advanced to the second round (including Tomasz), and there were 48 people in the first round (not including Tomasz). So if he was "last" in the first round (he doesn't even appear in the results for the first round), then wouldn't it not make sense that he advanced to the second round?

http://www.worldcubeassociation.org...ults=All+Results&competitionId=PolishOpen2009


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## Ron (Oct 4, 2009)

This case is still under investigation. So please be patient.


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## amostay2004 (Oct 4, 2009)

Rubik's Cube Fan said:


> TMOY said:
> 
> 
> > amostay2004 said:
> ...



Exactly. What reason would he have to be given a free pass to the second round while others 'faster' than him couldn't? Obviously the competition wouldn't have a rule saying 'the fastest 32 and Tomasz will advance to the next round'


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## TMOY (Oct 4, 2009)

Well, he finished first at the competition, not last, and that's why he advanced. The competition rankings and the official rankings don't necessarily match.


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## Swordsman Kirby (Oct 4, 2009)

Does no one remember this?

http://worldcubeassociation.org/results/c.php?i=PolishOpen2008&allResults=1#sq1


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## Carrot (Oct 4, 2009)

Swordsman Kirby said:


> Does no one remember this?
> 
> http://worldcubeassociation.org/results/c.php?i=PolishOpen2008&allResults=1#sq1



I was thinking about the same xD

but is it just a rule that they have to mess it up at Polish Open causing a WR that is not legit? O__o but enough to win a round :fp


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## Shadet (Oct 4, 2009)

amostay2004 said:


> Exactly. What reason would he have to be given a free pass to the second round while others 'faster' than him couldn't? Obviously the competition wouldn't have a rule saying 'the fastest 32 and Tomasz will advance to the next round'





Sorry, but its not funny at all ...:confused:

Imagine Yourself at his place, How would You feel ?


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## Matthew (Oct 4, 2009)

Swordsman Kirby said:


> Does no one remember this?
> 
> http://worldcubeassociation.org/results/c.php?i=PolishOpen2008&allResults=1#sq1



Yes - i wrote about this about 2 hours ago but then I thought.. that this is different case - in G. Prusak case that was not his fault - he've got wrong scramble and he had nothing to say about it until he solve it... But in Tomasz's case.. he could accidentally stop the timer so it could be his fault...


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## Lucas (Oct 4, 2009)

amostay2004 said:


> Rubik's Cube Fan said:
> 
> 
> > Yeah, in that thread I linked to you, people discuss about the "timer malfunction". Most people agree that .19 and .13 are not timer malfunctions, but the user accidentally stopped the timer like that. So if those times were really .19 and .13 (WCA regulations you can't count on video evidence), then those times would be considered as DNFs and the average wouldn't count.
> ...



Wasn't his sixth attempt (of the seven) one of the timer malfunctions. If it was then with just one DNF in his first 5 results he would have had a legit average (higher than 10.07, of course).

Edit: oh, he lost his single PB, too, which I think was legit.


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## qqwref (Oct 4, 2009)

Yes, MAHTI-ANSSI posted it before in this topic, the average would be 10.80, (DNF), 12.08, 9.77, (8.68) => 10.88. I think this should be the result posted; it is enough to win the first round and get to the second round, so the competition results would not be affected, just the world record itself.


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## Piotr (Oct 4, 2009)

From WCA Regulations:

11b)	In case of an incident during an event the main judge of the event must decide about the outcome.
11d)	If the WCA regulations are not fully clear or if the incident is not covered by the WCA regulations, then the main judge must make his decision based on fair sportsmanship, after consulting the WCA delegate.
11e)	In case of an incident the main judge may award a competitor another attempt, that replaces the attempt for which the incident happened.

According to these rules everything was correct. There were 2 incidents and Tomasz was given 2 extra attempts. It is WCA delegate's decision.
Timer malfunctions.. It was not intentional. Watch the video. 
So, where is the problem?? Why Tomasz' avg is removed??

Now, 5 days before WC Tomasz is under pressure..
Nice fair play example :/


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## amostay2004 (Oct 4, 2009)

Lucas said:


> Wasn't his sixth attempt (of the seven) one of the timer malfunctions. If it was then with just one DNF in his first 5 results he would have had a legit average (higher than 10.07, of course).
> 
> Edit: oh, he lost his single PB, too, which I think was legit.



Oh yea..that's true. Didn't put much thought into that  So he would've had a sub-11 average in the first round anyway...

@Shadet: I wasn't trying to be funny, just wanted to state my point.


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## masterofthebass (Oct 4, 2009)

Piotr said:


> There were 2 incidents and Tomasz was given 2 extra attempts. It is WCA delegate's decision.
> Timer malfunctions.. It was not intentional. Watch the video.
> So, where is the problem?? Why Tomasz' avg is removed??



Just because something was an accident, doesn't mean it didn't happen. I don't think ANYONE can say it was intentional that he stopped the timer, but it happened, and the rules say that the solve should be disqualified.


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## Piotr (Oct 4, 2009)

The rules say:" In case of an incident the main judge may award a competitor another attempt, that replaces the attempt for which the incident happened"

It was an incident, wasn't it?

Edit:According to rules, the final decision belongs to main judge. So, why WCA is questioning it?


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## qqwref (Oct 4, 2009)

I think the WCA board has the power to overrule anything that happened at a competition if they think it is necessary.

I am not really sure what I think about this situation... on one hand the main judge thought it was appropriate to not count the timer malfunctions, but on the other hand at some competitions that would always count as a DNF so it might not be fair to let Tomasz slide.


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## Piotr (Oct 4, 2009)

qqwref said:


> I think the WCA board has the power to overrule anything that happened at a competition if they think it is necessary.
> 
> I am not really sure what I think about this situation... on one hand the main judge thought it was appropriate to not count the timer malfunctions, but on the other hand at some competitions that would always count as a DNF so it might not be fair to let Tomasz slide.



That's what I mean. It is judge's and WCA delegate's decision. They decide if it is fair, or not. In this case, they decided it was fair to give him additional attempts. They were at place, near the situation. WCA's decision is based on a short video and people's comments..


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## AvGalen (Oct 4, 2009)

Ron said this is still under investigation. I am almost certain that the WCA has contacted Tomasz about this and that he is involved in the discussion.

I hope this gets resolved quickly.

Some more things:
* Please don't compare this with the Square-1 WR. That was a mistake by the scrambler that was deemed a DNF afterwards on request of the solver.
* Nobody is saying Tomasz did this on purpose.
* I don't think there should be a discussion ïf Tomasz won the competition. He was given extra attempts by the judge, advanced and won. The discussion should be solely about the WR

I wish Tomasz and the WCA the best of luck and wisdom in this decission. I will see you all at Worlds


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## Mr Cubism (Oct 5, 2009)

I hope he will keep the 10.07-record. All this talk about it will be an alarm bell for everybody now.......


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## gpt_kibutz (Oct 5, 2009)

Piotr said:


> qqwref said:
> 
> 
> > I think the WCA board has the power to overrule anything that happened at a competition if they think it is necessary.
> ...



I absolutely agree. If the main judge decided to give him an extra attempt, 
then the main judge should be in some way sanctioned (in the case that there was no timer malfunction). I think that the whole problem of it was that Tomasz broke the WR. If his avg would have been sub 11 nobody would have argued.


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## riffz (Oct 5, 2009)

I think another issue might be that if they let too many accidents slide, someone might get the idea to "accidentally" start the timer improperly on a scramble with a difficult cross, and receive a new scramble as a result.


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## Tim Major (Oct 5, 2009)

Yes said:


> ZB_FTW!!! said:
> 
> 
> > I pointed this out an a few minutes before you posted this thread.
> ...



Thanks, glad to get the recognition I desire.


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## Faz (Oct 5, 2009)

ZB_FTW!!! said:


> Yes said:
> 
> 
> > ZB_FTW!!! said:
> ...



lol.

Regarding the issue, I think that the WCA regulations are not clear enough, and will be more specific once this is all sorted.

It is a shame that this happened right before worlds, and puts alot of pressure on Tomasz.


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## Tim Major (Oct 5, 2009)

fazrulz said:


> ZB_FTW!!! said:
> 
> 
> > Yes said:
> ...


Makes your job easier though. Pity the Melbourne Comp won't be for ages. Will you go to another NZ comp in the mean time?


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## Faz (Oct 5, 2009)

Erm, no, the melbourne comp will be before the next NZ comp?


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## AvGalen (Oct 5, 2009)

fazrulz said:


> ZB_FTW!!! said:
> 
> 
> > Yes said:
> ...


Why does it put a lot of pressure on Tomasz? He found out that he could break his own WR by a large margin.
It also warned him that he should be more careful with his start. Something I am pretty sure he has tested, practiced and improved this week.
If this incident prevents him from getting DNF-ed at Worlds...it was worth it!


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## Erik (Oct 5, 2009)

I agree, it only puts more pressure on the other cubers since they know what Tomasz can do.
2 nights ago I had a nightmare about the finals of WC. The first 3 times were so-so, then on the 4th solve I got a 14.xx solve and was so angry at myself that I threw my cube at the ground breaking it. 
As a result I had to find a new cube for the 5th solve, after hours of searching and being mad at myself for not controlling myself, I finally found a cube I could use (AvG's sucky F type), went to Ron to give the cube, but found out the competition already finished without me.


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## tim (Oct 5, 2009)

Erik said:


> 2 nights ago I had a nightmare about the finals of WC. The first 3 times were so-so, then on the 4th solve I got a 14.xx solve and was so angry at myself that I threw my cube at the ground breaking it.
> As a result I had to find a new cube for the 5th solve, after hours of searching and being mad at myself for not controlling myself, I finally found a cube I could use (AvG's sucky F type), went to Ron to give the cube, but found out the competition already finished without me.
> The 'only' *good* thing about the dream was waking up next to my gf



I had a very similar dream. But instead of breaking my cube, i forgot one of my 20 cubes at home and couldn't borrow one from another cuber for multi bld (i don't know why). After hours of searching... Yeah, you know the end...


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## AvGalen (Oct 5, 2009)

tim said:


> Erik said:
> 
> 
> > 2 nights ago I had a nightmare about the finals of WC. The first 3 times were so-so, then on the 4th solve I got a 14.xx solve and was so angry at myself that I threw my cube at the ground breaking it.
> ...


You woke up next to Eriks gf?


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## Mr Cubism (Oct 5, 2009)

I think that most of the top cubers hope that the 10.07 record shall be deleted (even if they don´t admit it), that will really increase their own chances to break the "old" 10.63 WR.


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## tim (Oct 5, 2009)

AvGalen said:


> tim said:
> 
> 
> > Erik said:
> ...



*pssst*!


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## Crazycubemom (Oct 5, 2009)

Does anyone got interesting about Erik woke up next to his gf or gf(s) whatever ?


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## Nykjær (Oct 5, 2009)

AvGalen said:


> tim said:
> 
> 
> > Erik said:
> ...



Ha, that one made me smile... (and btw AvG's type F is good... furthermore is Tomasz not using type F? Might be the way to beat him...)
On topic: I have to say that because it ended out being a WR it should be removed as an average and i would think that Tomasz himself want's a WR that no one could question rather than a questionable one...
I do have several angles on this topic but it is hard to write about legal matter when English ain't that easy for me...


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## joey (Oct 5, 2009)

Arnaud's type F... ewww.


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## cmhardw (Oct 5, 2009)

joey said:


> Arnaud's type F... ewww.



Poor Arnaud :-( I have never tried this infamous type F. Arnaud my curiosity is piqued now! Perhaps at the end of the event, after you've competed, I might be able to give it a try?

Chris


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## Tyson (Oct 5, 2009)

I love just stepping away from the forums for a little awhile.


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## Piotr (Oct 5, 2009)

AvGalen said:


> Why does it put a lot of pressure on Tomasz?


Try to do a good solve, when you have to focus on timer and your hands.



AvGalen said:


> He found out that he could break his own WR by a large margin.


I agree, but he also found out that his result will be put under control everytime he will break a wr. And that's why he is under pressure.


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## pjk (Oct 5, 2009)

http://www.worldcubeassociation.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=814


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## Lucas (Oct 5, 2009)

> -Tomasz Zolnowski's 10.07 average will stand as the new world record. We caution all competitors to be extremely vigilant regarding starting the solving phase while utilizing the current timers. In addition, the WCA is in the process of designing a new timer that will hopefully alleviate some of these concerns.
> 
> For the upcoming world championships in Dusseldorf, Germany, timer stoppages at 0.06 seconds and greater will likely be considered accidental stoppages by the competitor as opposed to a timer malfunction, and an extra attempt will not be awarded unless there is evidence to suggest that the competitor did not contribute to the timer stoppage.



I want to see that new timer. I think that a timer with heat and pressure combination would be enough, provided that they can be tested (especially pressure), with some display that show the sensor behaviour.

What I wonder... which would be the evidence that suggest that competitor doesn't contribute to a timer stoppage? A video (so they will instantly check and make a decision)? Delegates/judge thoughts maybe?


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## AvGalen (Oct 5, 2009)

Piotr said:


> AvGalen said:
> 
> 
> > Why does it put a lot of pressure on Tomasz?
> ...



he doesn't have to focus on timer and hands. Focus should obviously be on solving. Starting and stopping should be second nature for him, just like for everyone else. It is not like he is the only one that can have bad starts. Circumstances are the same for everyone, just like it should be.

Competitors should do their thing and so should judges.

I would also like to compliment everyone for showing that we can discuss issues like this in a reasonable matter while staying on topic (well, mostly. Apparantly eriks gf is the best thing since sliced bread and my cube is the worst thing since....boybands???)


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## kickinwing2112 (Oct 5, 2009)

good for Tomasz Zolnowski, and his new wr!


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## Erik (Oct 5, 2009)

Piotr said:


> AvGalen said:
> 
> 
> > Why does it put a lot of pressure on Tomasz?
> ...



That's not right to say something like that I think, sorry to say. You make it sound like the WCA is constantly following him to be able to knock him out when he makes a 'mistake'.
They would investigate this no matter who it was and they made a good and fair decision in my opinion.
The reason he is under pressure is because he is world record holder, European champion and the top favorite to win 3x3.

@Avg: your cube wouldn't be that bad. Everyone who doesn't raise his hand after the question: "do you secretly listen to the backstreet boys?" is a lier! (besides me of course....
I listen to westlife )


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## Tyson (Oct 5, 2009)

Lucas said:


> > -Tomasz Zolnowski's 10.07 average will stand as the new world record. We caution all competitors to be extremely vigilant regarding starting the solving phase while utilizing the current timers. In addition, the WCA is in the process of designing a new timer that will hopefully alleviate some of these concerns.
> >
> > For the upcoming world championships in Dusseldorf, Germany, timer stoppages at 0.06 seconds and greater will likely be considered accidental stoppages by the competitor as opposed to a timer malfunction, and an extra attempt will not be awarded unless there is evidence to suggest that the competitor did not contribute to the timer stoppage.
> 
> ...



Heat and pressure sensor? Why not just a simple button?

Or are the effects of prolonged exposure to the super-colliding super-button not an element of this test?


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## Sebastien (Oct 5, 2009)

Lucas said:


> I want to see that new timer.



I think programming the stackmat so that it cannot be stopped before 0.30 would already be enough to handle that matter.


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## tim (Oct 5, 2009)

Sébastien_Auroux said:


> Lucas said:
> 
> 
> > I want to see that new timer.
> ...



I hope i'll never have to read your code .


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## KConny (Oct 5, 2009)

AvGalen said:


> If this incident prevents him from getting DNF-ed at Worlds...it was worth it!



One DNF has never stopped him before. He won Euro with a pop and got the old WR with a DNF aswell as 10.92 average with a DNF.

That's not true. He got 7th in Kociewie Open 2009 with an 17.18 average.


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## Tyson (Oct 6, 2009)

tim said:


> Sébastien_Auroux said:
> 
> 
> > Lucas said:
> ...



LOL! 20 hours later, I finally get this!


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## IamWEB (Oct 6, 2009)

Haha so there was anticipation?



Sébastien_Auroux said:


> Lucas said:
> 
> 
> > I want to see that new timer.
> ...



That would remove alot of fun people have with those.


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## brunson (Oct 6, 2009)

Lucas said:


> > -Tomasz Zolnowski's 10.07 average will stand as the new world record. We caution all competitors to be extremely vigilant regarding starting the solving phase while utilizing the current timers. In addition, the WCA is in the process of designing a new timer that will hopefully alleviate some of these concerns.
> >
> > For the upcoming world championships in Dusseldorf, Germany, timer stoppages at 0.06 seconds and greater will likely be considered accidental stoppages by the competitor as opposed to a timer malfunction, and an extra attempt will not be awarded unless there is evidence to suggest that the competitor did not contribute to the timer stoppage.
> 
> ...


I can't find anything in the regulations that requires the timer to be between the cube and the cuber or at the near side of the stackmat. If someone is worried that they're touching the timer with their forearms they could put it on the far side of the cube.


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## Pedro (Oct 6, 2009)

Tyson said:


> tim said:
> 
> 
> > Sébastien_Auroux said:
> ...



I didn't get it yet...lol


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## mazei (Oct 6, 2009)

I think this is basically a wake up call for either better equipment or more clear and precise regulations.


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## gagou9 (Oct 6, 2009)

i don't know if my idea is good or not, but it is possible to make a timer we need to press 1 second to stop him. and, of course, the time displayed will automatically be cut 1 second down...


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## qqwref (Oct 7, 2009)

That would be awful. What if the timer is laggy or your hand is not quite flat down and it takes more than one second to stop the timer? I think that would just be cumbersome and difficult to use.


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## AvGalen (Oct 7, 2009)

More details about that timer please Tyson


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## MTGjumper (Oct 7, 2009)

On the WCA website, under the Polish Open results, the 3x3 WR was announced. I look back now, and it's not. Glitch in the system?


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## Cride5 (Oct 8, 2009)

Looks like the average is now official .. again: http://www.worldcubeassociation.org/results/regions.php


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## MTGjumper (Oct 8, 2009)

Just checked the link, and it's gone again.

I was talking to Rowan about this. It keeps changing.


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## Cride5 (Oct 8, 2009)

MTGjumper said:


> Just checked the link, and it's gone again.
> 
> I was talking to Rowan about this. It keeps changing.



Weird :confused:
.. maybe a caching issue?


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## Konsta (Oct 8, 2009)

MTGjumper said:


> Just checked the link, and it's gone again.
> 
> I was talking to Rowan about this. It keeps changing.



I can see it all the time.
Maybe you have some problems with your computer? Or I?


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## MTGjumper (Oct 8, 2009)

... and now it's showing for me. It'll probably change for me later.


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## (X) (Oct 8, 2009)

I have checked several times and it's there all the time


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## Edmund (Oct 9, 2009)

Yeah it's there for me now. I think it should have been a DNF average because those malfunctions were not .02, or .03. Call me skeptical but I think there might be something up if someone is getting multiple +.03 malfunctions. Unless the timer had troubles for other people then I would say it was not DNF.


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