# CLLEF, the evil twin of COLL



## LarsN (Dec 10, 2008)

I like to use COLL for my fridrich solves and I know that there are a few people out there who does too.
An argument not to use COLL is that COLL algorithms take longer to execute than the relevant OLL's. That's when an idea came to me...

What are the OLL's that most people hate. For me it's OLL's with no edges oriented correctly. Then I started to find different algorithms for the same OLL case with no edges oriented correctly.
Now I've found a full set of COLL algorithms that orients and permutes the corners of the last layer, and flips all four of the last layer edges. I call them CLLEF: "Corners Last Layer and Edge Flip"

So, is it worth it?
Compared to using COLL you have 40 cases to learn with CLLEF and COLL, recognition is also the same and the end result is an edge only PLL or PLL-skip.
CLLEF algorithms are longer than COLL on average, but that's not a fair comparison. Instead, COLL algorithms are longer then the respective OLL algorithms, but CLLEF algorithms are (so far) exactly 12.0 moves compared to 12.0 of the respective OLL's (taken from cubewhiz.com).

One negative point about CLLEF is that it is not very useful with other methods like Petrus og Roux.

I'm working on optimizing the CLLEF algorithms for speed but I'm almost done If anyone is interest in this I could add the algorithms to the wiki (under CxLL ?).
If this is just mad ramblings, tell me aswell.


----------



## nitrocan (Dec 10, 2008)

If it flips all 4 edges, then you have found solutions for 4 cases. (Nothing oriented (2 cases), two corners and no edges oriented (1 case), all corners and no edges oriented (1 case))


----------



## Escher (Dec 10, 2008)

EDIT

lol, that last post was a bit stupid

nitrocans post confused me a little...


----------



## LarsN (Dec 10, 2008)

LarsN said:


> ... algorithms that orients and permutes the corners of the last layer, and flips all four of the last layer edges.



Do you seriously think that's only 8 cases ?!


----------



## nitrocan (Dec 10, 2008)

LarsN said:


> LarsN said:
> 
> 
> > ... algorithms that orients and permutes the corners of the last layer, and flips all four of the last layer edges.
> ...



Oh sorry, I wasn't reading properly. What I meant was, there are 4 cases out of 57 that you will be able to use these algorithms.


----------



## blah (Dec 10, 2008)

And an even lower probability than 4/57 during which you have to use these algs.


----------



## LarsN (Dec 10, 2008)

nitrocan said:


> Oh sorry, I wasn't reading properly. What I meant was, there are 4 cases out of 57 that you will be able to use these algorithms.





blah said:


> And an even lower probability than 4/57 during which you have to use these algs.




I can tell that you are not COLL users 

Okay, COLL replaces 7/57 OLL's. CLLEF would replace 8/57 OLL's.

If that's what you want to measure then CLLEF should be better than COLL which some people allready use.

I'm not saying that this is the new supermethod. I'm saying that if you like to use COLL why not try CLLEF aswell.


----------



## blah (Dec 10, 2008)

I'm not a COLL user but I know what it is  I just quoted the figure 4/57 because that's what nitrocan said. And I just realized that there are 8 OLLs with all edges flipped after you mentioned it, my bad. But still, the probability of using these algs is still lower than 8/57.


----------



## Zava (Dec 10, 2008)

blah said:


> I'm not a COLL user but I know what it is  I just quoted the figure 4/57 because that's what nitrocan said. And I just realized that there are 8 OLLs with all edges flipped after you mentioned it, my bad. *But still, the probability of using these algs is still lower than 8/57*.



why? of course too short


----------



## LarsN (Dec 10, 2008)

Zava said:


> blah said:
> 
> 
> > I'm not a COLL user but I know what it is  I just quoted the figure 4/57 because that's what nitrocan said. And I just realized that there are 8 OLLs with all edges flipped after you mentioned it, my bad. *But still, the probability of using these algs is still lower than 8/57*.
> ...



Because the probability of getting any OLL is not 1/57. That's just the number of possible cases.

I use COLL everytime i get a COLL case. COLL should occour fewer times than CLLEF, so I figure that I should be able to effectively use CLLEF along with COLL. That's 15/57 cases that gives me edge-perm only or PLL-skip.

Again, I like to use COLL and think I'm going to like CLLEF too. I'm just trying to check if others might be interested in the algs for CLLEF?


----------



## Kenneth (Dec 10, 2008)

Don't mind the corners when calculating probability for edge orientation. There are

4 * adjacent
2 * opposite
1 * all fliped
1 * all correct

total 8

I know a few algs for this method, some for the opposite cases and a big bunch of adjacent cases, Example = Sune r U R' U R U2 r' (yop!, use double layers and your COLL orients edges while solving corners, works for many algs)


----------



## LarsN (Dec 10, 2008)

@Kenneth
Your example wouldn't work for the idea I had with CLLEF, because it's for the corner cases with all edges flipped.

The only sune variant that I found for CLLEF was this:
r U2 R' U' R U' r2 U2 R U R' U r (and the inverse)

Do you know any other that would flip 4 edges?


----------



## fanwuq (Dec 10, 2008)

Nice idea! 
I think this is something that might actually be worth it for me to learn! 
What is the average number of moves it require? I'd definitely consider it if it's around 13 moves or less. I hope it should be fingertrick friendly and no algs are over 16 moves.


----------



## LarsN (Dec 10, 2008)

fanwuq said:


> Nice idea!
> I think this is something that might actually be worth it for me to learn!
> What is the average number of moves it require? I'd definitely consider it if it's around 13 moves or less. I hope it should be fingertrick friendly and no algs are over 16 moves.



Thanks 

I'm almost finished with the optimizing for speed (fingertricks) and at the moment the average number of moves is 12.0.

About fingertrick friendly algs I need to tell you that there are no 2-gens because you can't edgeflip with 2-gens (except for M U ones, but that wouldn't affect corners). The longest alg at the moment is 15 moves. It could be shorter but then it would be 6-gen!


----------



## fanwuq (Dec 10, 2008)

Sounds good! When will the algs be up?

This really inspires me to actually learn full Fridrich. ~15 more OLLs+ this 40 some algs can't hurt!


----------



## LarsN (Dec 10, 2008)

I will slowly add the algs to the wiki Cxll page in the next couple of days.


----------



## guusrs (Dec 10, 2008)

LarsN said:


> I will slowly add the algs to the wiki Cxll page in the next couple of days.



Lars,

I will be interested. Actually I already use CELL for years and sometimes variate with Corner algs to optimize edges. I also have some CLLEF algs in my speed-algs. I'' check the wiki-pages next week

Gus


----------



## Lt-UnReaL (Dec 10, 2008)

LarsN said:


> @Kenneth
> Your example wouldn't work for the idea I had with CLLEF, because it's for the corner cases with all edges flipped.
> 
> The only sune variant that I found for CLLEF was this:
> ...



r' R2 U R' U r U2 r' U M' (and the mirror)


----------



## LarsN (Dec 10, 2008)

Lt-UnReaL said:


> r' R2 U R' U r U2 r' U M' (and the mirror)



Ah, I forgot about that one. That's the one I use for the regular OLL. So I use that one and the inverse (instead of the mirror) for the CLLEF cases.


----------



## Kenneth (Dec 10, 2008)

LarsN said:


> @Kenneth
> Your example wouldn't work for the idea I had with CLLEF, because it's for the corner cases with all edges flipped.
> 
> The only sune variant that I found for CLLEF was this:
> ...



Insert M' U M into the algs at some point, don't remmeber how I did Sune at the moment but you can try to start with M' U and then Sune + restore FL edge.


----------



## Kenneth (Dec 10, 2008)

Lt-UnReaL said:


> LarsN said:
> 
> 
> > @Kenneth
> ...



lol, did not read that far into the tread before replying to Lars but yes, that's the one but I think I used the inverse =)


----------



## Lt-UnReaL (Dec 10, 2008)

Btw, this is a very nice idea. Hopefully these algs are at least somewhat fingertrick friendly.


----------



## cmhardw (Dec 11, 2008)

Wow this is a neat idea! I'm seriously considering learning this alg set myself!

Chris


----------



## LarsN (Dec 12, 2008)

About half the cases are up on the wiki CxLL page. It's the U T and L cases.
I'm in the process of putting these algs into musclememory, which is why some algs might change if I find them too tricky (and if I find a better ones).

If you happen to know or find better CLLEF algs, please add them or post them here. Then I will add them.


----------



## Kenneth (Dec 12, 2008)

I like this "2-gen"

r U r' U2 r U2 R' U2 R U' r' .. the Bruno case

l' U' l U2 l' U2 L U2 L' U l ... mirror


----------



## Lt-UnReaL (Dec 12, 2008)

Kenneth said:


> I like this "2-gen"
> 
> r U r' U2 r U2 R' U2 R U' r' .. the Bruno case
> 
> l' U' l U2 l' U2 L U2 L' U l ... mirror



Wow...those algs are nice. How come I never heard of them before? Everyone seems to do the F R U R' U' F' version of it...


----------



## LarsN (Dec 12, 2008)

Lt-UnReaL said:


> Kenneth said:
> 
> 
> > I like this "2-gen"
> ...



The F R U one was on my CLLEF list, but I like these too. Doing the mirrored one with a z rotation feels good


----------



## LarsN (Dec 12, 2008)

All the CLLEF algs are up now. I did check them, but knowing me there might be some mistakes anyway. Please let me know.

Enjoy


----------



## Kenneth (Dec 12, 2008)

Lt-UnReaL said:


> Kenneth said:
> 
> 
> > I like this "2-gen"
> ...



I don't know, I found it myself, from undoing a pair of the first layer and then put it back diffrently.


BTW: I read CLLEF as CLEFF, it's much easier to pronounce


----------



## Hadley4000 (Dec 12, 2008)

That is a very interesting idea, that I really like. However, 12 move average that is 6 gen seems a little iffy to me.


----------



## Kenneth (Dec 12, 2008)

What to do?, it is 11 face turns optimal to orient only the edges anyway, this way you do a lot more.


----------



## Jason Baum (Dec 13, 2008)

This is a great idea Lars! I've already started to learn them. I think the alg for case U B on the wiki page is incorrect though, so I wanted to you know about that. But yeah, I really like this idea and I've already learned all of the U cases (except for U B). I love how recognition is exactly the same as COLL... it doesn't really feel like I am learning anything new because of that, just some really nice tricks to turn bad cases into good ones. The ironic thing is I've started getting back into ZB this past week, and now I am learning an alg set for when no LL edges are oriented 

edit: Figured out what the problem was. Instead of (y') R B' R B2 U B' R' U2 R y' L U2 L', it should be (y') R B' *R'* B2 U B' R' U2 R y' L U2 L'


----------



## Kenneth (Dec 13, 2008)

This is one for U D, I used to use it for only edge orientation before I lerned VH/ZB-F2L because it is the fastest I know for that.

R U2 l' U' r' U2 r U l U2 R'
L' U2 r U l U2 l' U' r' U2 L ... mirror


Another one, does a Sune case, or actually it is two algs at once, look at this:

alg 1: M' U2 M U2 M' U M U' M' U2 M ... ELL
alg 2: R U2 R' L' U2 R U R' U2 L R U2 R' ... COLL

both at once: (M' R) U2 (M R') L U2 (M' R) U' (M R') U2 L (M' R) U2 (M R')

Shorted: r U2 (r' L') U2 r U' r' U2 (L r) U2 r' ... the (r' L') and (L r) are done as one turn so it makes 11.


----------



## fanwuq (Dec 14, 2008)

How would the speed and move count of CLLEF+EPLL compare to just COLL+the ELL cases for every edge flipped?


----------



## Kenneth (Dec 14, 2008)

Recognition, most ELL's are fast but not all, EPLL is always fast. Recognition for the corners are the same in both cases. CLLEF will save turns too. 12 + 7 (STM) = 19 turns on average for the whole LL (CLL-ELL is like 22 or so) that is only beaten by ZBLL.


----------



## fanwuq (Dec 14, 2008)

Kenneth said:


> Recognition, most ELL's are fast but not all, EPLL is always fast. Recognition for the corners are the same in both cases. CLLEF will save turns too. 12 + 7 (STM) = 19 turns on average for the whole LL (CLL-ELL is like 22 or so) that is only beaten by ZBLL.



But for this situation, if you do COLL on the CLLEF cases, you only have 5 ELLs to choose. How good are these algs?


----------



## Kenneth (Dec 14, 2008)

Ah, I think CLL.

Well, if you do COLL you will have 5 cases.

U is horrible, my fast alg is 14 STM, my short 12. H and no perm are both 11 and Z you can do in 9.

U occures 8:12 times 

Like to have the algs?


----------



## LarsN (Dec 15, 2008)

Hadley4000 said:


> That is a very interesting idea, that I really like. However, 12 move average that is 6 gen seems a little iffy to me.



Who said it was 6-gen? I stated that it COULD be shorter but then it would be 6-gen. 



Jason Baum said:


> This is a great idea Lars! I've already started to learn them. I think the alg for case U B on the wiki page is incorrect though, so I wanted to you know about that. But yeah, I really like this idea and I've already learned all of the U cases (except for U B). I love how recognition is exactly the same as COLL... it doesn't really feel like I am learning anything new because of that, just some really nice tricks to turn bad cases into good ones. The ironic thing is I've started getting back into ZB this past week, and now I am learning an alg set for when no LL edges are oriented
> 
> @Kenneth, I've added your alg for the sune case. It's a lot better than the one I found.
> edit: I added your Sune alg Kenneth. It's a lot better than the one I had found. The U D one you mention is essentially the same as I've put there, but your notation might be better...
> ...



I'm glad you like it Jason  I thought of you while I was finding the algs, because not that many are willing to learn all those algs. But then I remembered you were learning cases for all edges oriented.
I've corrected the U B case, thanks


----------



## fanwuq (Dec 15, 2008)

Kenneth said:


> Ah, I think CLL.
> 
> Well, if you do COLL you will have 5 cases.
> 
> ...



Yes.
I suppose I can use Erik's site, but not sure if he has all cases or you might use different algs.


----------



## LarsN (Dec 15, 2008)

Kenneth said:


> Shorted: r U2 (r' L') U2 r U' r' U2 (L r) U2 r' ... the (r' L') and (L r) are done as one turn so it makes 11.



That's a really great alg. The funny thing is that doing the excact same alg but change the middle U' into U solves the mirror sune case. I added them to the wiki.


----------



## Kenneth (Dec 15, 2008)

LarsN said:


> Kenneth said:
> 
> 
> > Shorted: r U2 (r' L') U2 r U' r' U2 (L r) U2 r' ... the (r' L') and (L r) are done as one turn so it makes 11.
> ...



Yes, I know, try the face only version with U2


----------



## fanwuq (Dec 18, 2008)

What if you come up with CLLEF for all OLLs? 
(meaning for all 57 OLLs, you have all 6 possible corner permutation cases.) So that would be 57*6 - maybe a few dozen for mirrors.
That would mean you can finish with CLLEF-OLL and EPLL for every single solve using less than half the amount of algs as ZB and faster recognition. Is this worth it?
I'm considering all the algs of this set except for COLL. When the ELS is easy, I'll do MGLS, if it is long, I'll just insert last slot and do this set of CLLEF-OLL.

Or perhaps you can also flip the edges wrong way on purpose to learn less algs and just use CLLEF. I don't know if this is worth it. For cases where you even have to flip edges at all, it's probably more efficient to flip them the correct way. Then leave this only for the ELS cases where 4 edges are flipped.


----------



## qqwref (Dec 18, 2008)

That would be a LOT of algs though (342?). Not sure I'd ever want to learn that. Besides I'm not sure EPLL is fast enough to make it really worth it... If you really think you're up for learning 300+ algs, go ahead, but it seems a bit much for so little advantage.


----------



## Ville Seppänen (Dec 18, 2008)

That could be a step towards knowledge of full LL though  I think Kenneth is already finding/learning OLL+CP algs for OLL. Not sure though. And notice that 1/12 change of a lovely PLL skip.


----------



## Kenneth (Dec 18, 2008)

qqwref said:


> That would be a LOT of algs though (342?). Not sure I'd ever want to learn that. Besides I'm not sure EPLL is fast enough to make it really worth it... If you really think you're up for learning 300+ algs, go ahead, but it seems a bit much for so little advantage.



Many algs but much easier than you think.

What you need are COLL's that besides solving corners also swaps two of the edges, like Sune does, then you can use M-setup + the usual alg to solve all cases with adjacent edges orientation (examples: M' + Sune + restore ; M + Sune + restore, Bruno works the same). Opposite edges are harder but works if you use a combo of MU-turns to setup. For the no edge cases you must learn special algs = CLLEF.

I can solve some 40-50% of all the 300+ cases using this style, I used to practice this as my speedcubing method, will probably pick it up again later.


----------



## AvGalen (Dec 18, 2008)

If this method ever becomes popular we need a new definition for edge-control so it will become:

Influencing the orientation of the 4 last layer edges in
a) A positive way (correctly orient all 4, finish with COLL + EPLL or ZBLL)
b) A negative way (incorrectly orient all 4, finish with CLLEF + EPLL)

OLL/PLL finishes will then only be used by people that don't use edge-control (beginners ), for very unlucky cases where edge-control is almost impossible and for very lucky cases where "the last pair" is accidentally skipped


----------



## LarsN (Dec 18, 2008)

I've learned half of the CLLEF cases in a week with only casual practise. I'm impressed by how easy I'm remembering all those algs. Because of that I am considering working with OLL+CLL algs. And because it's fun trying to find the different algorithms and optimizing them.

I'm not sure that this would make me faster at speedsolving, at least not without a lot more practise. But it would be fun to do


----------



## Kenneth (Dec 18, 2008)

I learn you a trick you can use Lars:

CLL: R U2 R' U2 --- R' F R F'
COLL: R U2 R' U2 --- L' U R U' M'

Got it? 

To make it more fun also try F R' F' R --- L' U R U' M'


----------



## LarsN (Dec 19, 2008)

I think I get it 

Pull out an f2l pair, insert it in different ways to get different results. The CLL and COLL alg in your post are the same except for an M and M' move.

Here's a rewrite of the last alg that made me understand how essential M moves are to flipping edges.

F R' F' R M R' F R F' M'


----------



## deco122392 (Dec 19, 2008)

haha thats very interestin to know, and ill keep that in mind..... ( me thinks more optimal or finger trick frendly vh algs i can make with this in mind)


----------



## Meisen (Feb 27, 2011)

This evil twin should really get it's own page in the algorithm database similar to the COLL algorithm's.
Anyone up for the task?


----------



## irontwig (Feb 27, 2011)

http://www.speedsolving.com/wiki/index.php/CxLL


----------



## Meisen (Feb 27, 2011)

Yeah, i was looking at that page, but i didn't find it easy to understand. The COLL page on the other hand is awesome


----------



## irontwig (Feb 27, 2011)

How's it hard to understand? You just click on the case and you got a list of CxLL, which includes CLLEF. It would be nice to have a similar database preferably including OLLCP.


----------



## danthecuber (Feb 27, 2011)

You can't add a new catagory to the database yourself, ask cride5 to do it.


----------



## Meisen (Feb 27, 2011)

I was just hoping someone would make an dedicated CLLEF page as it's alredy done for COLL. There are people visiting this forum with varying degree of skill and knowledge, and I for one did not find the images on the CxLL page nearly as informative and easy to understand as those at the COLL page. Just saying....


----------



## oll+phase+sync (Mar 2, 2011)

CLLEF could even be used within Roux:

The obvious usage is would be to do an M - adjustment to get all (4) missoriented edges in the U-layer 

The second idea would be to use CLLEF if you have one missoriented edge in U and one in D.

But currently I not even, know wich of my edge-flipping CLLs flipps wich edge.


----------



## oll+phase+sync (Mar 4, 2011)

@GUUS

Is CELL just another spelling of CLL (read it on a frech site, but I'm not speaking french )? Do you use any CLL related F2L-additions or other CLL Subsystems? (CLL+1 was mentiond here in the forum, but nobody is there there to know how to do it )

@Kenneth
Do you use Partial edgecontrol to get to adjacent oriented edges?

Is it always possibnle to tweak a COLL with M moves or do you also use S moves ?


----------



## uberCuber (Mar 4, 2011)

oll+phase+sync said:


> @GUUS
> 
> Is CELL just another spelling of CLL


 
I could be wrong, but the way I interpreted his post is that he does a CLL/ELL last layer (which he just abbreviated to CELL), and that he just has more than one alg for some (all?) of the CLL cases, each of which affects the edges differently; that way he can try to force a better ELL case.


----------



## Rpotts (Mar 4, 2011)

isn't "cllef" for roux just KCLL?


----------



## oll+phase+sync (Mar 17, 2011)

Kenneth said:


> I learn you a trick you can use Lars:
> 
> CLL: R U2 R' U2 --- R' F R F'
> COLL: R U2 R' U2 --- L' U R U' M'
> ...


 
I knew that some of of my CMLL algs could be forced to be COLL by addition of some M moves, but never looked at it so systematic. It'S really a big help.

So I might try to learn full COLL just by this.

My first successfull exsample (S- R-Flipp )
CLL = x' U'RU *R' *xU2R'U2R (8moves)
COLL = x' *M’* U'RU*r'*xU2R'U2R (9moves)


----------



## Kenneth (Mar 17, 2011)

oll+phase+sync said:


> @Kenneth
> Do you use Partial edgecontrol to get to adjacent oriented edges?
> 
> Is it always possibnle to tweak a COLL with M moves or do you also use S moves ?



You can do all using only M, but mabye long then.

As I'm using columns first nowdays I ignore all but the middle layer edges compleatly (CMSLL).

But for OH I use a set of LL-methods that all needs oriented edges to work (COLL, some ZB, 'about Snyder' (EP+1 corner, L3C) and L4C (LPELL first)). I usally orient before paring up the last pair (2g pair then), sometimes I pair and orient in one and other times I pair and then orient, it depends on the situation. CLL+EO I only do in FMC or for fun now. I think I lost a good number of cases


----------



## Kirjava (Mar 17, 2011)

the 4flip KCLL cases are like, the worst. even the 6flip cases are better.

I think CLLEF is kinda nasty compared to just doing OLL/PLL or CLL/ELL. It's def the worst OLLCP subset.


----------

