# TEAM CHAMPIONSHIP EXPERIMENT



## x-colo-x (Jun 26, 2010)

WCA Team Championship

The WCA Team Championship is a international Speedcubing competition between teams. The teams get points in every oficial Rubik's Championship, and at the end of the season, wins the team that have more points.

The teams are made by a maximum number of 19 competitors (19 official events), one Competitor for each event, so, a competitor only can get points for his team in one, and only one event. Every team have 19 competitors as maximum and 6 as minimum.

Each speedcuber can be in 2 different teams simultaneaously
The season will start the first week of september, and will end the last of August. The first Monday of each quarter the teams can do changes of his members (first month December, march, june and september). you can send the changes before , but the changes won't aplly until the monday
When a Speedcuber compete in a oficial Championship, he 'll do it normaly. When the championship ended, his Rank at the event that he race for his team, will be added to the current points of his team, following the next:

1. 10 points
2. 8 points
3. 6 points
4. 5 points
5. 4 points
6. 3 points
7. 2 points
8. 1 point

Example: Person1 , From team ''FC Barcelona'' (event 4x4x4) compete at World Championship 2010, ends 3º in 4x4x4 . Add 6 points for his team. At same time, he competes for team ''Darubik'' (event 3x3x3) and ends 8º . Add 1 point to the team ''Darubik''.



The Staff:
Fabrizio http://www.worldcubeassociation.org/results/p.php?i=2008CIRN01
Ting http://www.worldcubeassociation.org/results/p.php?i=2008BAOY01
Alejandro http://www.worldcubeassociation.org/results/p.php?i=2008RODR01
Victor http://www.worldcubeassociation.org/results/p.php?i=2008TORR02
David http://www.worldcubeassociation.org/results/p.php?i=2005CALV02


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## Toad (Jun 26, 2010)




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## Cyrus C. (Jun 26, 2010)

Wouldn't people who go to a bunch of competitions have an advantage?


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## Ranzha (Jun 26, 2010)

Cyrus C. said:


> Wouldn't people who go to a bunch of competitions have an advantage?



Yeah. That's the fail part.
Cubers living in places without many competitions would not have the slightest chance of winning.


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## Cyrus C. (Jun 26, 2010)

JTW2007 said:


> Cyrus C. said:
> 
> 
> > Wouldn't people who go to a bunch of competitions have an advantage?
> ...



What?

Also, I think that it shouldn't be based on what place the competitor gets, but his times.


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## Kurama (Jun 26, 2010)

HI!
As the thread says, it's just an experiment. We have though about the people that travels a lot and compete in all championships they can, so it's just an experiment. I think we should only 'Consider' the points made in: 'Nationals', 'European' and 'World' championships. 

Or maybe, the 5 first championships of the year. 

Also, you can give more Ideas


Thank's


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## JTW2007 (Jun 26, 2010)

Cyrus C. said:


> JTW2007 said:
> 
> 
> > Cyrus C. said:
> ...



Sorry, misread your post. Disregard.


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## Cyrus C. (Jun 26, 2010)

Kurama said:


> HI!
> As the thread says, it's just an experiment. We have though about the people that travels a lot and compete in all championships they can, so it's just an experiment. I think we should only 'Consider' the points made in: 'Nationals', 'European' and 'World' championships.
> 
> Or maybe, the 5 first championships of the year.
> ...



How about the last competition that the competitor competes in (for their event) is what counts? You're assuming that all good cubers can go to a lot of competitions, there are some who live in places of the world that only get 1 or 2 competitions a year.

EDIT: I guess that could make competitors stop competing in competitions if they get a really good time. How about the average placement/time over all of their competitions in the season?

EDIT2: Is there a website where we can start making teams? Or do we just do it over the Forum?


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## Kurama (Jun 26, 2010)

I know that there are cubers that only can compete in 1-2 championships in a year because of the place where they live. Of course I know it. 
Maybe we should have a limit competitions for teams. Don't know.

another thing is: 19 contestants, each team, is a lot. I would make it only for the principal events (2-3-4-5-OH-BLD) and add +2 events each team. So... teams of 8 competitors. Only count the 6 principal events +2 additional events choosed by the team.

You win points for your team only in the Event you race for your team. If you do 4x4, and in a competition, end 4, you get 5 points for your team. Don't care what you do in 2x2, 3x3 ... only what you represent.

we're still making the teams (from spain) we'll put it in practise the 9-10 july at Barcelona Open. The best, if you want to have a team, is send missage to ''x-colo-x''


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## miniGOINGS (Jun 26, 2010)

Points/Comps


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## Cyrus C. (Jun 26, 2010)

miniGOINGS said:


> Points/Comps



Exactly! Take the average.

The teams aren't nations are they?


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## Bryan (Jun 26, 2010)

Kurama said:


> I think we should only 'Consider' the points made in: 'Nationals', 'European' and 'World' championships.



Because cubers in North America could get points at US Nationals and the Canadian Nationals.

Cubers in Europe could have European, Dutch Nationals, German Nationals, UK, French, Spain, Hungary, etc ........

Since US States are as big as some European countries, any US state competition should count.


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## shelley (Jun 26, 2010)

Maybe you should only consider results set at a continental championship of the continent your nationality belongs to. Or to make it simple, at the World Championships. Since there's only one major championship in each place for each year, this would be the most fair.


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## Cyrus C. (Jun 27, 2010)

shelley said:


> Maybe you should only consider results set at a continental championship of the continent your nationality belongs to. Or to make it simple, at the World Championships. Since there's only one major championship in each place for each year, this would be the most fair.



This would prevent some cubers that can't make it to Nationals from competing. What's wrong with Points/Competitions?


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## Kurama (Jun 27, 2010)

I Agree with you. Points/competitions is really nice!

About if the teams should be of the same country... I don't think that. It would be better if all are from the same country, but you can have a maxium of 2 Other nationality. For example, our team, we'll try to be 13 from Spain, and 2 from Other country (Italia and France)


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## CubesOfTheWorld (Jun 27, 2010)

Okay, it is a little confusing.

If it is cubers joining different teams, going to competitions, gathering points, and winning the 'Team Championship', then I'm in. Im going to US Nationals and the competition boxcar was trying to plan, so sign me up!

EDIT: I read through it again slowly. It makes a lot of sense now.

This can be a different way to score:

Let's say you are doing 3x3 speed for your team. You go to a competition with 76 people entered in 3x3 speed. You end up in 29th place. You will subtract your position number from the amount of people entered in that event at the competition. 76 - 29 = 47. You just got 47 points for your team. To get the total amount of points you get for your team at the end of the season, you take the average of the amount of points per competition. Let's say in the 5 competitions I go to this year, I get 19 points, 21, 47, 12, and 23. Average that up to get 24.4 points. Your total amount of points for this season is 24.40. Always round totals to the nearest hundredth. Now you take the average of all of your teammates' scores, and that is your team's score for the season.


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## shelley (Jun 27, 2010)

Cyrus C. said:


> shelley said:
> 
> 
> > Maybe you should only consider results set at a continental championship of the continent your nationality belongs to. Or to make it simple, at the World Championships. Since there's only one major championship in each place for each year, this would be the most fair.
> ...



If you can't make it to Nationals, you can't compete in Nationals. What's wrong with that? That's the way things always are.

A big thing is wrong with Points/Competitions. People who go to smaller competitions are likely to get more points per competition. Take your best time and compare where you would be ranked in a California competition vs. a Utah competition, for example. If you distribute points by ranking, people will start going or not going to competitions depending on who else will be there. Or teams will be picked based on where someone lives and which competitions he is most likely to attend rather than actual skill in an event. And that's just silly.

Why use rankings at all? We have a perfectly objective way to measure and compare performance in an event, and that's your time in the event. Awarding points based on rankings only makes sense if you can control how the rankings are given across the board, e.g. only using rankings from a single big competition like the World Championships or something.


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## Faz (Jun 27, 2010)

So, we need 6 people minimum?

Just for fun, this is what I would put as our list

Aronpm: 4bld 5bld multi
Zane: 3bld (consistent)
Luke Bruce: 6x6, 7x7
Jeremy Lu: magic, master magic, clock
Tim Major: Pyraminx FMC
I'll take the rest xD


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## Robert-Y (Jun 27, 2010)

If we can have a one man team, here's my team:

Joey: All events

Bring it on!


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## miniGOINGS (Jun 27, 2010)

Robert-Y said:


> If we can have a one man team, here's my team:
> 
> Joey: All events
> 
> Bring it on!



I choose you, Erik Akkersdijk!


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## Forte (Jun 27, 2010)

Robert-Y said:


> If we can have a one man team, here's my team:
> 
> Joey: All events
> 
> Bring it on!



well we've lost this one then


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## Cyrus C. (Jun 27, 2010)

shelley said:


> Cyrus C. said:
> 
> 
> > shelley said:
> ...


 
So we should base it off of times. Then, we won't have that problem.


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## Ranzha (Jun 27, 2010)

Here's my proposed team solution:
Up to 10 people can participate in a team at any one competition. If people do not show up, do not fear--standard deviation is here!
I think we should rank teams according to the average of the standard deviations of all sets of solves for a particular event for a team.
Think of it this way:
Seven people are on a team.
Each of these seven people competes in however many events he/she wants to compete in.
Let's assume all of them participate in 3x3.
Start with 3x3 Round 1.
Each competitor does his/her averages.
After the average is recorded, the standard deviation is calculated.
If the person qualifies for Round 2/Final timewise, they move on to the next round.
After this average is recorded, the standard deviation is calculated.
The process continues for all rounds for all 7 people.
After all of the averages are finished, the standard deviations for all of the averages from all rounds from all team members are calculated and tabulated to find an average.
This average would then be the team's SD Average for the single competition.
After all competitions in the season, All of the SDAvgs from all of the competitions of the year are averaged to find the final SDAvg for the season.

This would make people want to be consistent.
Now, how would one factor in the speed factor?


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## CubesOfTheWorld (Jun 27, 2010)

Ranzha V. Emodrach said:


> Here's my proposed team solution:
> Up to 10 people can participate in a team at any one competition. If people do not show up, do not fear--standard deviation is here!
> I think we should rank teams according to the average of the standard deviations of all sets of solves for a particular event for a team.
> Think of it this way:
> ...



This would be a good consideration. This should be more like another competition, as well as having the regular one.


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## Cyrus C. (Jun 27, 2010)

Ranzha V. Emodrach said:


> Here's my proposed team solution:
> Up to 10 people can participate in a team at any one competition. If people do not show up, do not fear--standard deviation is here!
> I think we should rank teams according to the average of the standard deviations of all sets of solves for a particular event for a team.
> Think of it this way:
> ...


Speed:SD, lowest is better.


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## Ranzha (Jun 27, 2010)

Cyrus C. said:


> Ranzha V. Emodrach said:
> 
> 
> > Here's my proposed team solution:
> ...



I thought about that.
Then I thought, "Meh. Too easy."


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## Cyrus C. (Jun 27, 2010)

Ranzha V. Emodrach said:


> Cyrus C. said:
> 
> 
> > Ranzha V. Emodrach said:
> ...


How is that too easy?


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## Ranzha (Jun 27, 2010)

Cyrus C. said:


> Ranzha V. Emodrach said:
> 
> 
> > Cyrus C. said:
> ...



Time/SD would actually determine the quality of how a person cubes. I actually am agreeing with this.
I need to try this.


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## LewisJ (Jun 27, 2010)

My thoughts: trying to make this scoring mean anything over multiple competitions and to even out numerous different factors is futile. I just think that any effort to make something more fair for some specific circumstance creates another circumstance which can be exploited.

I think the scoring used for determining winning teams at track meets fits well here. The same 10 8 6 5 4 3 2 1 points system would be used for places 1-8, regardless of how many competitors are there or what the times are. Points only matter at a specific competition - countries/teams can win specific competitions but how they do at one comp doesn't affect how they do at another. Various continental and world championships can be the big competitions between teams. Cubers can form their own teams and can also be scored as countries - there can be results for both.


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## Ton (Jun 27, 2010)

x-colo-x said:


> WCA Team Championship
> 
> The WCA Team Championship is a international Speedcubing competition between teams. The teams get points in every oficial Rubik's Championship, and at the end of the season, wins the team that have more points.
> 
> ...



This would be totally unfair 
1) Big cube countries are more likely to get 19 good cubers in a team
2) I could arrange the best international cubers for each event
3) I make sure the team members only go to small international competitions , so they end up in the top for the events
You simply can not compare points gained in a world championship to any local competition, though you are reworded with the same and probably higher scores
4) I organize one day events e.g. only 3x3 and 4x4 event in my country in small places so not many international players can/will come

I see no point in this setup ,even if you repair holes, the bases of this kind of scores should only be done if the teams are all in the same competitions. Even comparing times over different competitions is unfair , because they can be different circumstances 
etc

I would rather see
Sum of all average ranks for each year starting at 1/1/2011 etc 
To be the declared as the overall WCA competition champion
http://www.worldcubeassociation.org/results/statistics.php

This will make sure the top cubers will expand their expertise to all events, in return this will lift and benefit others /share knowledge


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## Cubepark (Jun 27, 2010)

> This would be totally unfair
> 1) Big cube countries are more likely to get 19 good cubers in a team
> 2) I could arrange the best international cubers for each event
> 3) I make sure the team members only go to small international competitions , so they end up in the top for the events
> ...




Ton, I understand your problem. I would say that it could make teams from 12 components, 12 categories of competition, each partecipant can sum points in max three competitions, which have to be national open or championship. In this way is guaranteed that the level of competition is high, and there isn't the problem of adding points, because anyone can manage to partecipate three competitions in a year.
If you don't partecipate at least at three competitions per year , you can't win the championship . 
You may decide first in wich competitions assign points .
We can do a test in Europe or in USA; Barcelona Open, Italian Championship and Germany Nationals are three competitions that are going to be disputed during this year, we can try with max only 2 race for competitor.
We can decide to have less strangers per team, and only for strangers, limits who is in the world's top ten in a category


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## Bryan (Jun 27, 2010)

Kurama said:


> It would be better if all are from the same country, but you can have a maxium of 2 Other nationality.



Huh? What's the rationale behind that?


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## Ton (Jun 27, 2010)

Cubepark said:


> Ton, I understand your problem. I would say that it could make teams from 12 components, 12 categories of competition, each partecipant can sum points in max three competitions, which have to be national open or championship. In this way is guaranteed that the level of competition is high, and there isn't the problem of adding points, because anyone can manage to partecipate three competitions in a year.
> If you don't partecipate at least at three competitions per year , you can't win the championship .
> You may decide first in wich competitions assign points .
> We can do a test in Europe or in USA; Barcelona Open, Italian Championship and Germany Nationals are three competitions that are going to be disputed during this year, we can try with max only 2 race for competitor.
> We can decide to have less strangers per team, and only for strangers, limits who is in the world's top ten in a category



This is where the problem starts, I do not consider Italian Championship a high level competition, compared to e.g any Dutch Open competition it is more a local competition. See Best 3x3 Podiums http://www.worldcubeassociation.org/results/statistics.php

Dutch Open , Dutch National and German Open and Japanese Competitions are of World Championship level at least they are comparable 

My opinion, you can not compare competitions ... This kind of pointing system will never be fair unless the teams competed in the same competition


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## x-colo-x (Jun 27, 2010)

i'ts right, but if you consider the second round of the Italian Open of this year, the sum of the firsts three average is 35.02 that isn't far from the 10th sum ranked

but I agree with you, for have a real comparation all the teams should compete in the same competition, a competition only for teams


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## Ton (Jun 27, 2010)

x-colo-x said:


> i'ts right, but if you consider the second round of the Italian Open of this year, the sum of the firsts three average is 35.02 that isn't far from the 10th sum ranked
> 
> but I agree with you, for have a real comparation all the teams should compete in the same competition, a competition only for teams



If you would select a competition that could count , just count how many top 50 cubers are there. The last Italian Open had only 3 top cubers. 

To make it clear which competition counts I would settle if at least 5 top cubers of the top 50 are competing.


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## Cubepark (Jun 27, 2010)

Ton said:


> x-colo-x said:
> 
> 
> > i'ts right, but if you consider the second round of the Italian Open of this year, the sum of the firsts three average is 35.02 that isn't far from the 10th sum ranked
> ...



We can try, Us (Italians), Spanishes and germans make a team. Next, after Barcellona open, Italian championship and Germany nationals, we make a classify. all categories except 5x5 BLD, 3x3 with foot and Rubik's CLock
I think that after Euro 2010 you'll change idea about italian cubers' level, maybe..I wish


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## Ton (Jun 27, 2010)

Cubepark said:


> We can try, Us (Italians), Spanishes and germans make a team. Next, after Barcellona open, Italian championship and Germany nationals, we make a classify. all categories except 5x5 BLD, 3x3 with foot and Rubik's CLock
> I think that after Euro 2010 you'll change idea about italian cubers' level, maybe..I wish



This is a very very very wrong conclusion of what I wrote , I did not say anything about the level of the top cubers of Italia -which they have-. In the Italian competition so far there where not much international cubers in total. This defines for me the level of the competition

I wonder you miss out the dutch cubers, we are a country with the highest level of cubers compared to most European countries. We have 4 top cuber in the top 50 compared to Germany 1 , Italy 2, Spain 0

I would select a Polish , Dutch and France competition which have normally the most top cubers at the big competitions

This is one of the reason your idea will not work and I consider it as unfair


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## Cyrus C. (Jun 27, 2010)

It seems the trouble is you're trying to do this through WCA competitions where there are already set rules where you have to work around. If you just did it online, you could give everyone the same scrambles.

The way you could do it online and prevent cheating is:

1. Have each of your 5 staff members take a group of time zones.
2. When it is a time that isn't completely obscure for the time zone a staff member has, he opens a webcam chat.
3. The staff member makes sure the only people in that room are the ones competing in that specific time zone, and turns on a screen recording program.
4. The staff member releases the first scramble to the competitors and monitors their scrambling and solving.
5. The competitors record their times.
6. This continues for the other 4 scrambles.
7. The competitors give their times to the staff member to enter into a database.
8. If any discrepancies occur, or cheating is thought to have happened, the staff members can review the recording.


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## shelley (Jun 27, 2010)

Sure, as long as it's unofficial and has nothing to do with the WCA you can do whatever you want.


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## Cubepark (Jun 27, 2010)

Ton said:


> Cubepark said:
> 
> 
> > We can try, Us (Italians), Spanishes and germans make a team. Next, after Barcellona open, Italian championship and Germany nationals, we make a classify. all categories except 5x5 BLD, 3x3 with foot and Rubik's CLock
> ...



Hi Ton,
there was a misunderstanding, I realized after what you mean, but unfortunately you had already read my answer. Indeed, the Cube'n Roll Italian Open was a good competition, the Italian Championship will not be the same level. I'm working already now for the race next year, hoping to attract other Champion, the possibility of organizing a good race there in May, yet it is premature. Anyway, I'll show you an example for a solution that could perhaps be applied

I make 3 teams of 5
The race are
Germany National
Barcellona OPen 
Italian Championship

Assuming that cubers do times similar to those in wca ranking

Italian Team
Max Iovane 3x3 11.xx
Giovanni Contardi 4x4 44.xx
Matteo COlombo BLD 1.15
Filippo Brancaleoni Magic 1.xx
Riccardo Simone 5x5 1.50

Spain Team

Rodrigo Septién Rodríguez 5x5 1.46
Ting Sheng Bao Yang Magic 1.05
Alejandro Aguado Barahona 3x3 12.xx
Alejandro Riveiro Rodríguez 4x4 59.xx
Manuel López Sheriff BLD 1.40

Germany Team

Lucas Garron Bld 1.09
Jan Dickmann Magic 0.96
Cornelius Dieckmann 3x3 10.xx
Robin Blöhm 4x4 52.xx
Lasse Korbanka 5x5 1.35



3x3 
germany team 10 
Italian Team 8
Spain team 6
-------------------
4x4
Italian Team 10
Germany 8
Spain 6
-------------------
5x5
Germany Team 10 
Spain team 8
Italian Team 6
----------------------
Magic
Germany 10
Spain Team 8
Italian team 6
------------------------
Bld 
Germany Team 10
Italian Team 8
spain Team 6
---------------------------

General Classification
Germany 48
Italy 42
Spain 34


the example should be made at least 10 teams, 15 race and maybe 2 open

team must win to have so many strong players, not just one, because a cuber can only participate in one category. Obviously he will do all in open races he wants, but the championship will count only one that has decided the coach...


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## Bryan (Jun 27, 2010)

Ton said:


> To make it clear which competition counts I would settle if at least 5 top cubers of the top 50 are competing.



If the team championship stuff was official, I could see this really hurting attendance at smaller competitions. If people don't see top 5 cubers signed up, they just won't go.

I'd say base it on any competition. This would encourage more competitions and more participants. And just base it off of time instead of rankings.

At the end of the year, take all the results for the year. Take the first person for average and give them 1000 points, then the 2nd person gets point based on a relation of their times to the 1st place person's time (plus maybe add some points for each rank so winning by .01 gives the winner more than just a small amount). Do this for everyone on the team. Sum up team. Teams can be made up of anyone. If you have country restrictions, then keep them to the same country, no "2 person exception". I'd prefer not to have country limits because that allows people to be on a team with people they cube with (if they're a foreign citizen living in a different country).


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## Ton (Jun 28, 2010)

Cubepark said:


> General Classification
> Germany 48
> Italy 42
> Spain 34
> ...



I see how it works, unfair though e.g. with 5 events the Dutch cubers will probably end first. But with more than 6 event this is not the case, we simply have "only" have 6 top players in the Netherlands

In general, big countries with more cubers are more likely to find a top competitor for a specific event. And of course you gain the points in different circumstance. How is this fair?????

Beside this , I can think of some unwanted team order or tactics

Hence I have Mats and Erik compete in 3x3 and Mats is assigned to the 3x3 event, the team get more points if Erik makes a "mistake" and places behind Mats

I could also make sure my some of my team members are going to some competitions to make sure the other teams do not not get the points or at least less.
E.g to make sure Italia does not get the most points I send my team to the Italian Competition and register at the last moment, if a Competition is though like Germany I do not send them 

In all this kind of competition will become unfair, it will only work if all the teams are represented in the same competition. But than again big cube countries have the advantage.


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## Cubepark (Jun 28, 2010)

I Have another solution, maybe
Something like this

the number of top 50 (wca ranking) in each race will determine the points that are assigned

an example

BLD

Barcellona Open
2 top 50
classification
1 10 p
2 8p
3 6p

Italian Championship
BLD
3 top 50

1 12 p
2 10 p
3 8p

Germany 5 top 50
BLD
1 15 p
2 12 p
3 10 p

About this



> Hence I have Mats and Erik compete in 3x3 and Mats is assigned to the 3x3 event, the team get more points if Erik makes a "mistake" and places behind Mats





Sometimes Barrichello and Schumacher didn't have attitudes fair .
If one does so many miles to attend a race hoping to do it to win and improve rankings in WCA

I like the idea of having a team champions of the year , I understand the difficulties.


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## Carrot (Jun 28, 2010)

Me pick I for pyraminx =D


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## Ton (Jun 28, 2010)

Cubepark said:


> I Have another solution, maybe
> Something like this
> 
> the number of top 50 (wca ranking) in each race will determine the points that are assigned
> ...



Sure this will be an equalizer pointing system, however the more events you add the small cube countries will be in disadvantage.
I would only select main events (so no magic). So 3x3, 4x4, 5x5 and 3x3 bld this can be covered by the most if not all countries. You could create a poll to select 4 or 5 events . 

However this does not rule out "Schumacher" type team orders. Or order team tactics


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## Cubepark (Jun 28, 2010)

OK Ton....I'm so happy...

the last thing

to satisfy all we could do 2 levels
Basic level and Premium level
In the first only main categories
2x2, 3x3, 4x4, 5x5, magic and bld
We have 15 categories in the second, all without
3x3 with foot, 5x5 bld, 6x6 and rubik's clock 
Of course the teams participating in the premium level also participate in the basic level

Lorenzo Vigani liked the idea, he will make the Italian's team


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## Kurama (Jun 28, 2010)

Hey! wait... Magic is not main event.
And I think Rubik's Clock should be one. At least. In spain Clock is like 2x2, there are important competitors (oficially 3 sub 10.xx avg)

we could do it with:
2x2
3x3
4x4
5x5
3x3 BLD
3x3 OH

As main events, and maybe put Pyra/clock/Magic/master/Square-1/MultiBLD/Minx/6x6 and 7x7 as secondary events


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## Cubepark (Jun 28, 2010)

Ok
we could also create a poll, as suggested ton


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