# Negative Time Solving Contest 2010



## macky (Oct 29, 2010)

Continuing with what has now become a tradition, I'm once again organizing the annual Negative Time Solving Contest. The scrambles for this year and the time submission form have already been posted.

DST (Daylight Saving Time) ends at 3am on Sunday, October 31 in many European countries. In most parts of the United States and Canada, DST ends at 2am on Sunday, November 7. See Time and Date.com to check the clock change schedule in your area. Results from Europe will NOT be posted until the results from North America come in a week later.

Please note that each solve started (not just start the timer but actually make a move) before daylight saving ends and completed after it ends counts as a negative solve. This means that you can simultaneously compete in 3x3 speedsolve, 3x3 BLD, multiBLD, etc, at the cost of some extra time in your negative solve.

Once again, thanks to Tyson Mao for bringing this great Caltech tradition to cubing. Good luck to all participants!


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## Lucas Garron (Oct 29, 2010)

I wanna see Mike Hughey do a negative Square-1 multi.


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## qqwref (Oct 29, 2010)

I wanna see someone beat my "most puzzles in negative time" record from last time


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## Mike Hughey (Oct 29, 2010)

Lucas Garron said:


> I wanna see Mike Hughey do a negative Square-1 multi.


 
I was actually thinking, I really would rather do a square-1 multi that night (I like to do one each Saturday night), but I have a tradition of trying normal multis in negative time, so I felt sort of obligated to go for ordinary 3x3x3s instead. Should I treat your request as permission to go ahead and do a square-1 multi instead?

The only catch is that I'll have to make it smaller than my usual attempt, since I can't get through 10 square-1s in negative time. 6 or 7, or maybe even 5 if I want to play it safe.


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## James Ludlow (Oct 29, 2010)

qqwref said:


> I wanna see someone beat my "most puzzles in negative time" record from last time


 
How many was it?


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## cmhardw (Oct 29, 2010)

I was 2/3 on 4x4 MultiBLD last year, I think I'll go for 4 cubes this year.


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## qqwref (Oct 29, 2010)

James Ludlow said:


> How many was it?


 
53 different puzzles (about 2/3 of which were simulated).


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## Sa967St (Oct 29, 2010)

I'll try to not accidentally fall asleep at 11:55pm and miss it again.


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## tim (Oct 30, 2010)

Mike Hughey said:


> I was actually thinking, I really would rather do a square-1 multi that night (I like to do one each Saturday night), but I have a tradition of trying normal multis in negative time, so I felt sort of obligated to go for ordinary 3x3x3s instead. Should I treat your request as permission to go ahead and do a square-1 multi instead?


 
I'll do normal multi, so you could just join me and give me some competition .

@James: The results are here: http://cubefreak.net/other/negative/past.html#09


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## tim (Oct 31, 2010)

I'm done! Go go go, guys .


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## Sin-H (Oct 31, 2010)

onoes. I missed it. 

but, but, but.... I've never missed it before...


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## theace (Oct 31, 2010)

We don't really have DST here in india and so, i'm not really familiar with this concept. Could someone care to explain?


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## vcuber13 (Oct 31, 2010)

theace said:


> We don't really have DST here in india and so, i'm not really familiar with this concept. Could someone care to explain?


 
daylight savings


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## macky (Nov 7, 2010)

Less than 6 hours to go for the east coast. GOGOGO!


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## Stefan (Nov 7, 2010)

If they have 6 hours left and gogogo now, how can they get a negative time?


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## PatrickJameson (Nov 7, 2010)

Stefan said:


> If they have 6 hours left and gogogo now, how can they get a negative time?


 
Gogogogo get some caffeine to aid in staying up.


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## Mike Hughey (Nov 7, 2010)

I took a survey at the competition today, and most people seemed to agree that I should do 4x4x4 multi to compete with Chris. So I guess that's what I'll do. Not long now until it starts!


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## Micael (Nov 7, 2010)

Good luck Mike.

I am already getting tired, but I want to do multi. Getting a tea now...


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## cmhardw (Nov 7, 2010)

Mike Hughey said:


> I took a survey at the competition today, and most people seemed to agree that I should do 4x4x4 multi to compete with Chris. So I guess that's what I'll do. Not long now until it starts!


 
Oh gosh lol. This will be my first ever actual competition against another person in a multi event then *wipes sweat off forehead* Good luck Mike!

Chris


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## Mike Hughey (Nov 7, 2010)

cmhardw said:


> Oh gosh lol. This will be my first ever actual competition against another person in a multi event then *wipes sweat off forehead* Good luck Mike!
> 
> Chris


 
Good luck to you too - I hope we both get 100% success!

And Micael, assuming you stay awake, good luck to you too. Give Tim some competition.


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## waffle=ijm (Nov 7, 2010)

coffee overload O_O
downed 2 5-hour energy
I'm on my 3rd energy drink

but

not really...


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## cmhardw (Nov 7, 2010)

Mike Hughey said:


> Good luck to you too - I hope we both get 100% success!


 
Should we use the same scrambles then? The 4x4x4 scramble listed on the site can be for cube 1.

I don't know how many cubes you plan to do, but here are a few more scrambles we could use. I pulled these just now off of JNetcube:

2) b l2 B2 L2 U F2 r b f L l U2 L2 l2 u U f2 B d f L u' U' f2 F2 R2 B2 R L2 d2 D2 f' u r b2 D2 d' B R d
3) D2 U B' D u' R L' u2 U2 f2 B' l d' L B' d2 r2 U' B D L u' R2 F2 l d F' b U2 d2 B2 l2 L2 b B u f u2 d' r'
4) R b2 B' R u2 b2 L' B' R2 r' F2 b2 l2 f2 b R' f U' d' f2 b L2 R B' u' U' f' L2 R' U l' R' U' l' B b r' b D2 U
5) D u' b L' F' d2 b2 u2 l' L' F u2 l L' u U b2 l d' f2 B2 l r b2 D2 R B2 R' B' U u' r2 U2 R' L' f2 r F2 u R'
6) D R' U' l B2 L f B R' b2 F u f' B2 d' b B u' f' F r L b L F2 U' u l R d2 b2 f l' r b2 L2 u2 b l r2


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## Mike Hughey (Nov 7, 2010)

Chris, if you want to do matching scrambles, I figure I'll use the week 45 weekly 4x4x4 speedsolve scrambles.


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## cmhardw (Nov 7, 2010)

Mike Hughey said:


> Chris, if you want to do matching scrambles, I figure I'll use the week 45 weekly 4x4x4 speedsolve scrambles.


 
I already did 3 of those scrambles for my competition :-s


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## Mike Hughey (Nov 7, 2010)

Wow, that was amazing - we posted at the same time. When you do JNetCube scrambles, do you actually do single slice moves in the scrambles? (If I remember right, that's what JNetCube expects.) I'd rather do legal official scrambles, with wide notation, but I would prefer to match whatever scrambles you use.


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## ninjabob7 (Nov 7, 2010)

I'm confused. For BLD and multiBLD, do we still have to make the first move before the time change? Or does starting memorization count as "starting the solve" in this case?


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## cmhardw (Nov 7, 2010)

Yeah JNetcube you should use single slice turns, or else you get shorter sequences that are turn equivalent to the scramble. WCA scrambles sound fine, if you post them I'll use them.



ninjabob7 said:


> I'm confused. For BLD and multiBLD, do we still have to make the first move before the time change? Or does starting memorization count as "starting the solve" in this case?


 
MultiBLD follows standard BLD procedure which must adhere to:


> B4b) The competitor must not apply moves to the puzzle before he has fully donned the blindfold.



So only the memorization must be started before the time change.


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## Mike Hughey (Nov 7, 2010)

I tell you what - I hadn't realized Macky had posted the 4x4x4 scramble. Since it's in single slice notation, let's just use your scrambles above. I'm always one to prefer consistency.

And I've always counted memorization as "starting the solve". Last year I think I reported negative 21 minutes memorizing, positive 20 minutes solving, or something like that. So the solving phase isn't negative, but the overall attempt is. If you did start the solve before the time change, you'd have a positive memorization phase, but a negative solving phase. To me, either way works.


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## Micael (Nov 7, 2010)

Thanks Mike, I just drink a 3 bags tea, so I will make it 

I guess both of you (Mike and Chris) should do the same amount of cube, competition would be more exiting.


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## cmhardw (Nov 7, 2010)

Micael said:


> Thanks Mike, I just drink a 3 bags tea, so I will make it
> 
> I guess both of you (Mike and Chris) should do the same amount of cube, competition would be more exiting.


 
Micael, good luck on your multi competition with Tim!

I'm fine if Mike wants to do more cubes than me. I only really practice single BLD, so my closest equivalent to the multi I am going to try is 7x7x7 BLD. That is about my limit for 1 hour. I know from last year that I can do three 4x4x4's in about 45 minutes. All I have to do is go at a slightly quicker pace than I did last year and I should just barely manage it in 1 hour.


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## ninjabob7 (Nov 7, 2010)

Cool, I was planning to try a multiBLD attempt this weekend but totally forgot about DST. If I succeed, my first ever multiBLD success will be in negative time. I wonder how many people can say that? I'll only do 3 cubes since I really want to get it right, and since I only have 3 DIY's.


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## cmhardw (Nov 7, 2010)

ninjabob7 said:


> I wonder how many people can say that?


 
Very few indeed I would think, good luck!


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## Lucas Garron (Nov 7, 2010)

Mike Hughey said:


> Last year I think I reported negative 21 minutes memorizing, positive 20 minutes solving, or something like that. So the solving phase isn't negative, but the overall attempt is. If you did start the solve before the time change, you'd have a positive memorization phase, but a negative solving phase. To me, either way works.


Now, what would be *really* awesome is starting execution on the change. You could try to justify that memorization and execution were both positive, but together they were negative.


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## cmhardw (Nov 7, 2010)

Lucas Garron said:


> Now, what would be *really* awesome is starting execution on the change. You could try to justify that memorization and execution were both positive, but together they were negative.


 
Not gonna lie, that's pretty trippy


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## vcuber13 (Nov 7, 2010)

chris how many are you trying 3?


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## cmhardw (Nov 7, 2010)

vcuber13 said:


> chris how many are you trying 3?


 
Going for four cubes. It'll probably be REALLY close, but I think I can do it in one hour. Even if I don't manage negative time, it would be pretty neat to have my only four cube 4x4x4 multi attempt be faster than my pb single cube time


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## vcuber13 (Nov 7, 2010)

nice, it reminds me of Dene's (i think) blindfolded 3x3 while flying over from time zone to another


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## waffle=ijm (Nov 7, 2010)

just a few more minutes. 
finished warming up.


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## StachuK1992 (Nov 7, 2010)

I have to drive at 9 tomorrow morning to get Dan to Harrisburg by 11.
This is the only reason I didn't go to bed like 3+ hours ago.

Imma be tired for driving tomorrow.


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## cmhardw (Nov 7, 2010)

Good luck Mike! I have my earplugs in and earmuffs on, and I'm going to go ahead and start!   Hopefully talk to you again BEFORE I send this message


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## waffle=ijm (Nov 7, 2010)

I want to be the first roux user to sub-(-59:45.00). Chances are, if there are no other fast Roux solvers, I'll get it :3

EDIT - Eff yes.
<- First Roux user to sub-(-59:45.00) :3 I'm so happy I stayed up for this


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## flee135 (Nov 7, 2010)

FFFUUUU 16.90 >_<


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## StachuK1992 (Nov 7, 2010)

16.69
PLL skips are sexy.
I'll subtract and submit in the morning.
Bed time.


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## waffle=ijm (Nov 7, 2010)

This was such an amazing scramble for Roux



Spoiler



Recreated Solve
breakdown
2-4-1-3


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## Hadley4000 (Nov 7, 2010)

I missed it! Grr, Hadley mad.


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## qqwref (Nov 7, 2010)

I successfully completed a (simulated) Petaminx solve in negative time  

Time: -7:46.640
Moves: 6872
Moves/sec: -14.73 (actually 2.19)

This beats the UWR by about 63.5 minutes


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## Micael (Nov 7, 2010)

qqwref said:


> I successfully completed a (simulated) Petaminx solve in negative time
> 
> Time: -7:46.640
> Moves: 6872
> ...


 
That is quite awesome!

It was harder (and slower) than I thought to do a multi at 2pm.


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## Truncator (Nov 7, 2010)

14.96.
Started at 1:49:50, ended at 1:00:05.

*-59:45.04*


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## Mike Hughey (Nov 7, 2010)

Wow, qq - that was truly awesome!!!!

I'm very happy. Partially delirium from having been awake for nearly 24 hours now, and partially because I'm sitting in front of 4 solved 4x4x4's. I cut it LOTS closer than I thought I did - I thought I had plenty of time, but I guess in my carefulness, I was taking a lot longer to execute than I thought. Memorization time was -27:20, total time was -1:48.85. I was figuring I could take as much as 40 minutes (or should I say, -20 minutes?) to memorize, and I should be able to easily execute in 5 minutes per cube, but when I had gone over everything several times, I decided to just go early, and boy am I glad I did - I really needed the extra time for execution!

Micael, I had an advantage on you - I do most of my multis at 2 in the morning. 

What a fantastic 24 hours this has been for BLD for me! 3 3x3x3's, 2 4x4x4's, 1 5x5x5, and 1 square-1 in competition, and 4/4 multi 4x4x4. Wow!


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## cmhardw (Nov 7, 2010)

4x4x4 multiBLD

3/4 in -3:18.90 minutes.

I was off by 3 wings on the 2nd cube. Using my DNF reconstruction method I found the following for that solve:

After the scramble the wings were in the following cycle to solve: (Q KN)(E UR *L*M I)(F DB XV SO WH G*T* AC P)
I memorized: (Q KN)(E UR *T*M I)(F DB XV SO G*T* AC P)
Using my reconstruction method what I actually executed was: (Q KN)(E UR *T*M I)(F DB XV SO G*L* AC P)

So... I mis-memorized the cube by incorrectly shooting to *T* twice. Not only that, but I substituted L for the second T without even realizing it :-s

Glad that I was correct about being able to do this in under an hour! I will certainly try again, and hope that next time I get all 4 correct! My hat's off to you regular multi solvers, this is just ridiculously intense compared to single cube BLD.

--edit--
Mike, just saw your result, congratulations!

--edit--
qq, that's intense! I only recently got my gigaminx down to about 45 minutes (physical puzzle)! Crazy stuff to get the petaminx sub-hour man!

Chris


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## PatrickJameson (Nov 7, 2010)

Oh darn, I missed it. :/



Mike Hughey said:


> I'm very happy. Partially delirium from having been awake for nearly 24 hours now, and partially because I'm sitting in front of 4 solved 4x4x4's.



Woahhh, you are one insane man, Mike. Congrats 

Edit: You are insane too, Chris


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## Mike Hughey (Nov 7, 2010)

Wow, Chris, you beat me on time - sorry you missed those three wings - if not for them, you would have beaten me! (That mistake of yours is a common kind of mistake for me, by the way.)

And by the way, this felt a good bit more intense than a 3x3x3 multi. I was in full panic mode at around 20 minutes because much of it wasn't sticking, but then suddenly the problem spots all started to stick.


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## cmhardw (Nov 7, 2010)

Mike Hughey said:


> Wow, Chris, you beat me on time - sorry you missed those three wings - if not for them, you would have beaten me! (That mistake of yours is a common kind of mistake for me, by the way.)
> 
> And by the way, this felt a good bit more intense than a 3x3x3 multi. I was in full panic mode at around 20 minutes because much of it wasn't sticking, but then suddenly the problem spots all started to stick.


 
Mike it's ok, but thanks for the thoughts. I'm upset at myself that I mis-memorized more than that I made a piece substitution mistake during solving. I can't really complain though because I don't practice multi, and don't really know very well what kind of mental workout to expect.

I was surprised by this attempt, in that the memorization felt *exactly* like when I memorize a 7x7x7. I memorized in 39:39 (-20:21 tee hee) and solved in 17:02. I told myself at the start that I would memorize up to 40 minutes, and leave the 5 minutes per cube to solve as well.

At first during memorization I wanted to go more quickly than I should, and had to force myself to slow down. I did this for the centers of the first cube, and the first wing location. Then I found a comfortable stride all the way through until corners of the 2nd cube. I really struggled to memorize this location, but things picked up a bit for the 3rd cube memorization up until the last few locations for wings (almost done with this cube at that point), and corners for the 3rd cube. Then I hit some kind of 3rd wind and just breezed easily through the 4th cube, except that by the time I got to corners I was running out of steam again. This waning and moving comfortably is pretty much exactly what happens to me on 7x7x7BLD as well.

I'm glad that I am doing these post mortems. Without the post mortem I probably would have thought that I just cycle the wrong direction on a cycle or something, when it was much different than that.

My hat is off Mike! You're a crazy person to BLD race against! *bows down*

Chris


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## Mike Hughey (Nov 7, 2010)

Wow, Chris, you executed much faster than me! I didn't really ever feel like I had trouble with memory recall, so I'm surprised I was that slow. I was being a little more careful - in many places where I would normally optimize and do a near-optimal commutator for wings, I went ahead and did straight r2 because it felt safer. But I can't believe that alone accounts for my slow solving speed. I guess it's also true that 2 of my 4x4x4s were old Eastsheens, so maybe that accounts for part of the slowness. I forgot that when I switched to a QJ, my 4x4x4 BLD times sped up by about a minute. That might really be a good bit of the difference.

As for my memorization, I took about 5 minutes for the first cube, but then quickly realized I didn't have it solid enough. I slowed down as I went through the others, but not a lot, so that at around 24 minutes, I finished my first pass through all 4. The second pass was pretty rough and I had to rebuild quite a few places, but by the third pass, it was getting pretty close to solid. Corners are always a real problem for me with unusual multis and relays; this time I went through an extra pass for just the corners, and I think that really helped. By my last pass through the memo, it really felt quite solid, and I wasn't even at 33 minutes yet!

And you still outraced me - I just happened to make one less mistake than you. It's really cool how closely matched we are - it makes it especially fun to race with you!


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## Zane_C (Nov 7, 2010)

Mike Hughey said:


> I'm very happy. Partially delirium from having been awake for nearly 24 hours now, and partially because I'm sitting in front of 4 solved 4x4x4's...
> 
> What a fantastic 24 hours this has been for BLD for me! 3 3x3x3's, 2 4x4x4's, 1 5x5x5, and 1 square-1 in competition, and 4/4 multi 4x4x4. Wow!


That is amazing, that's quite a big accomplishment.  



cmhardw said:


> 4x4x4 multiBLD
> 3/4 in -3:18.90 minutes.
> Chris


Great result nonetheless, Chris have you ever thought about getting into multi? I think you would be quite good at it.


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## Micael (Nov 7, 2010)

By the way, my result was 9/10 in -9:23. I was initially willing for 12, but got tired before the attempt. I memorized slowly for maximum safety, but mis-executed something. I don't know why I am still awake!

Edit:
Oh, very nice guys, Chris and Mike.


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## Mike Hughey (Nov 7, 2010)

Oh, Micael - after your earlier comment, I figured you had done worse than that - 9/10 is really quite good! Even if you're disappointed, I still want to congratulate you!


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## cmhardw (Nov 7, 2010)

Zane_C said:


> Great result nonetheless, Chris have you ever thought about getting into multi? I think you would be quite good at it.



Thanks Zane,

Yes, I suppose it's inevitable that I will one day try multi in competition. Honestly, multi is an extremely stressful event for me. I struggle with getting a good accuracy for single cube BLD, and even a (n-1) / n multi attempt is still psychologically a DNF to me, even if that result often still counts as a quite good one in competition. I know I shouldn't feel that way, but I always do when that happens. That's probably one of the biggest reasons why I haven't competed it officially yet.



Micael said:


> By the way, my result was 9/10 in -9:23. I was initially willing for 12, but got tired before the attempt. I memorized slowly for maximum safety, but mis-executed something. I don't know why I am still awake!
> 
> Edit:
> Oh, very nice guys, Chris and Mike.


 
Micael, that's an awesome result! Much respect! Did you reconstruct your DNF solve? Do you know what happened during that solve?


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## Andreaillest (Nov 7, 2010)

23.65+
Fail. Just going to keep this one to myself... I believe the time would be -59 mins, 36.35 secs.


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## Micael (Nov 7, 2010)

cmhardw said:


> Micael, that's an awesome result! Much respect! Did you reconstruct your DNF solve? Do you know what happened during that solve?


 
I did not analyse it carefully, but I checked the memo and it was correct.


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## dChan (Nov 7, 2010)

Go Mike and Chris! Nice results guys!

I did a one-handed solve this year, since it is my favorite event, and got -59min, 36.11 sec. I was videochatting with a friend while doing it and didn't realize that it was time to start when, all of a sudden, he started going, "51, 52, 53," etc. Haha, so, as you can imagine, I rushed to inspect and ended up not planning my first steps very well. There's always next time, though!


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## ninjabob7 (Nov 7, 2010)

3x3 multiBLD: -30:57, 0/3 DNF.
I finished through the second cube edges then couldn't remember the first corner. I tried moving on to the third cube but couldn't even remember the first edge. Turned out I missed the last corner on the first cube during memo.

This was really bad... I made mistakes multiple times while memorizing and had to try to start over. I thought I would do better since I tried a sleep-delayed BLD with the same method, but trying to "stack" two images at each location and having the same images (often the same pairs) repeated in different rooms threw me off. I might be able to do this with practice, but I doubt I will ever go beyond 3 with one image per sticker. Time to start working on a list of pair images, I guess.


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## vcuber13 (Nov 7, 2010)

16.86
-59:43.14






I also got this at like 1:



Spoiler


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## Sa967St (Nov 7, 2010)

I took a nap at 1:30am intending to wake up after 20 mins or so, but I when I woke up it was 4:00am. Fail.


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## waffle=ijm (Nov 7, 2010)

>=(


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## blade740 (Nov 7, 2010)

-59 minutes, 49.16 seconds. Square-1.


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## macky (Nov 8, 2010)

Results...I guess not complete yet? Andrew, I don't see your result.


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## waffle=ijm (Nov 8, 2010)

BOOM! Roux, I wuv this method <3


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## Cool Frog (Nov 8, 2010)

I slept through my alarm clock. But it kept my mom up for an hour


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