# Recurring PLL within a time



## ZamHalen (Nov 4, 2009)

In the past few days I've been practicing very frequently an noticed that two Plls have become more common.But this has happened before (i.e. when i was first learning PLL T perm would come up very often).Recently V perm has come up more often. Has this happened to anyone else and does anyone else get this.

(If this is the wrong section i'm sorry and am not sure where this would go)


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## iSpinz (Nov 4, 2009)

Yep, right now It seems like I get the V perm and doubl spins more often, but its probably just because I haven't memorized it good enough. It might just be the PLLs/OLLs you dont know seem to come up since you dont know them.


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## Edward (Nov 4, 2009)

This only happens to me when I do solves with random scrambles.


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## iSpinz (Nov 4, 2009)

Edward said:


> This only happens to me when I do solves with random scrambles.



random scrambles?


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## Edward (Nov 4, 2009)

iSpinz said:


> Edward said:
> 
> 
> > This only happens to me when I do solves with random scrambles.
> ...


I mean non computer generated scrambles.


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## ZamHalen (Nov 4, 2009)

This happens to me with both random and generated scrambles though.


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## iSpinz (Nov 4, 2009)

ZamHalen said:


> This happens to me with both random and generated scrambles though.



Same as me, just learn the V perm and you give get it "less often"


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## 4Chan (Nov 4, 2009)

Totally, like, sometimes I get 4-5 PLL skips in a row.
Other times I get like, 20 PLL skips in a row.


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## Anthony (Nov 4, 2009)

Cubes=Life said:


> Totally, like, sometimes I get 4-5 PLL skips in a row.
> Other times I get like, 20 PLL skips in a row.



Lies! You would have to learn an insane number of algorithms to do that. It's not humanly possible.


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## Zarxrax (Nov 4, 2009)

For the past few days, it seems like I'm getting an R perm like 30% of the time.


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## Edward (Nov 4, 2009)

Actually, I have found recently that I almost always come up with PLL's I don't know yet.


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## iSpinz (Nov 4, 2009)

Thats the point. You notice the ones you dont know, so you stop solving or use a combination of 2 algs


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## Edward (Nov 4, 2009)

iSpinz said:


> Thats the point. You notice the ones you dont know, so you stop solving or use a combination of 2 algs



When I get one I don't know I just do 2 look.


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## iSpinz (Nov 4, 2009)

Edward said:


> iSpinz said:
> 
> 
> > Thats the point. You notice the ones you dont know, so you stop solving or use a combination of 2 algs
> ...



thats what I mean


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## Edward (Nov 4, 2009)

iSpinz said:


> Edward said:
> 
> 
> > iSpinz said:
> ...



:fp:fp Ok.


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## mcciff2112 (Nov 4, 2009)

Zarxrax said:


> For the past few days, it seems like I'm getting an R perm like 30% of the time.



How I wish that happened to me..


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## Anthony (Nov 4, 2009)

mcciff2112 said:


> Zarxrax said:
> 
> 
> > For the past few days, it seems like I'm getting an R perm like 30% of the time.
> ...



What he didn't tell you is that it was the lefty R.

Fail.


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## V-te (Nov 4, 2009)

Anthony said:


> Cubes=Life said:
> 
> 
> > Totally, like, sometimes I get 4-5 PLL skips in a row.
> ...



You're kidding right? lol


and I've been getting R lefty a whole lot too. My whole AVG of 5 was R left. Grr....


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## dbax0999 (Nov 4, 2009)

For me it was z-perm. Again and again and again.


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## V-te (Nov 4, 2009)

dbax0999 said:


> For me it was z-perm. Again and again and again.



I feel bad for you.


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## hawkmp4 (Nov 4, 2009)

You all DO realise that, though certain PLLs have a higher probability of occurring than others, this never changes?


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## AvGalen (Nov 4, 2009)

It has to do with the position of the moon and what you had for dinner the night before.

Seriouly though, this topic and some of the claims here are just ridiculous. Please post a real analysis before saying things like 20 PLL skips in a row.
And learn some basic statistics and combine that with learning the probabilities of each PLL


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## Tim Major (Nov 4, 2009)

AvGalen said:


> It has to do with the position of the moon and what you had for dinner the night before.
> 
> Seriouly though, this topic and some of the claims here are just ridiculous. *Please post a real analysis before saying things like 20 PLL skips in a row.*
> And learn some basic statistics and combine that with learning the probabilities of each PLL



I hope you're joking. Cubes=Life has these occurrences all the time


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## V-te (Nov 4, 2009)

ZB_FTW!!! said:


> AvGalen said:
> 
> 
> > It has to do with the position of the moon and what you had for dinner the night before.
> ...



Yeah, ZB_FTW!!! (pun intended)


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## Zane_C (Nov 4, 2009)

I have noticed I frequently get the perm where you need to cycle 3 edges and 3 corners, 
what is that perm called?


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## deepSubDiver (Nov 4, 2009)

Zane_C said:


> I have noticed I frequently get the perm where you need to cycle 3 edges and 3 corners,
> what is that perm called?


G-perms.

I usually have the same PLLs in a row of a few solves when I scramble with no alg (in the tram or outside or something). I even notice I apply a similar pattern to my scrambles, there also was a thread about this.


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## Zane_C (Nov 4, 2009)

I should practice the G-perms more, I sometimes get confused cause they are all inverses of each other.


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## Cride5 (Nov 4, 2009)

Just to clarify, here are the approximate percentage probabilities, and exact values for the probability of occurrence of each permutation.

*G* 22.2% - 2/9 (1/18 for each)
*U* 11.1% - 1/9 (1/18 for each)
*A* 11.1% - 1/9 (1/18 for each)
*R* 11.1% - 1/9 (1/18 for each)
*J* 11.1% - 1/9 (1/18 for each)
*F* 5.6% - 1/18
*T* 5.6% - 1/18
*V* 5.6% - 1/18
*Y* 5.6% - 1/18
*Z* 2.8% - 1/36
*E* 2.8% - 1/36
*N* 2.8% - 1/36 (1/72 for each)
*H* 1.4% - 1/72

These exact probabilities will only occur in reality if a random-state scrambler is used. If scrambling by hand or by applying a random sequence of turns then they may vary, but I shouldn't imagine it would vary by much.

*NOTE:* Scramblers which apply 25 random moves (such as those on cubetimer.com or qqtimer) aren't random-state, and result in a bias towards states which are closer to solution. As far as I know there are no javascript implementations of a 3x3 random-state scrambler at the moment..

I think what iSpinz pointed out is true. Any PLLs which are notable for some reason (ie, you don't know them, or have issue with them) are more likely to be noticed and so may appear to occur more frequently.


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## 4Chan (Nov 4, 2009)

V-te said:


> ZB_FTW!!! said:
> 
> 
> > AvGalen said:
> ...



Aaah, sorry Arnaud, I was making a joke.
I actually do have whole averages in which I skip PLL for the whole average.
The only time I have to do PLL in when I do the wrong case, or I forget the case.

I have a video~


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## Lux Aeterna (Nov 4, 2009)

Random distributions are NOT the same as uniform distributions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias


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## irontwig (Nov 4, 2009)

Cride5, you forgot one perm that occurs 1/72 of the time and is really nice.


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## Cride5 (Nov 4, 2009)

irontwig said:


> Cride5, you forgot one perm that occurs 1/72 of the time and is really nice.



Lol, yea the 'solved' perm. Pity it doesn't happen as much as G-perm


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## ZamHalen (Nov 8, 2009)

Wow i didn't expect this many replies to this topic.


AvGalen said:


> And learn some basic statistics and combine that with learning the probabilities of each PLL


I especially didn't expect some one like AvGalen to reply but any way to clear this up. Yes I've know about the probabilty since before I even started learning PLL.The point is though why is it always that one PLL within a week ,2 weeks,or even a month.And not more G permutations for example(I haven't gotten one of those in almost 3 weeks).


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## hawkmp4 (Nov 8, 2009)

ZamHalen said:


> Wow i didn't expect this many replies to this topic.
> 
> 
> AvGalen said:
> ...


Frankly, I don't believe you.
Write down the number of each permutation you get for a week. Post em here.


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## deadalnix (Nov 8, 2009)

Cubes=Life said:


> Totally, like, sometimes I get 4-5 PLL skips in a row.
> Other times I get like, 20 PLL skips in a row.



yeah, the probability is just 1/14016833953562607293918185758734155776 .

You should play to some lotery.



hawkmp4 said:


> Frankly, I don't believe you.
> Write down the number of each permutation you get for a week. Post em here.



With cube explorer generated scrambles.


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## 4Chan (Nov 8, 2009)

deadalnix said:


> Cubes=Life said:
> 
> 
> > Totally, like, sometimes I get 4-5 PLL skips in a row.
> ...



(ZB method)


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## miniGOINGS (Nov 8, 2009)

deadalnix said:


> Cubes=Life said:
> 
> 
> > Totally, like, sometimes I get 4-5 PLL skips in a row.
> ...



You know that was a joke right?


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## deadalnix (Nov 8, 2009)

Now I know


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## OregonTrail (Nov 8, 2009)

I'm just a beginner (using an LBL method), but I get the feeling that when doing the cross or any intuitive step, one's subconscious mind can influence the permutations that show up later on.


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## Muesli (Nov 8, 2009)

OregonTrail said:


> I'm just a beginner (using an LBL method), but I get the feeling that when doing the cross or any intuitive step, one's subconscious mind can influence the permutations that show up later on.



I doubt that somehow. You can force skips if you can see and predict them, but I don't think its got anything to do with the subconcious.


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## cmhardw (Nov 8, 2009)

Cubes=Life said:


> deadalnix said:
> 
> 
> > Cubes=Life said:
> ...



Yes, but we are using terminology incorrectly here 

PLL skip implies that you "skipped" the step as per chance. As in you had some chance to skip this step, and you got lucky and this occurred.

The chance of a "PLL" skip for ZBLL is actually the chance of a full LL skip. The reason is that PLL is *not a step* in the ZB method but a special case *of* the ZB method.

For example, Chris has a 1/27 chance to have a fully oriented last layer after solving ZBF2L. This means that Chris will do a standard PLL alg when this happens, most of the time. Now, *given* that Chris has ended up with an oriented last layer after ZBF2L (1/27 chance to do so), he then has a 1/72 chance to skip the resulting PLL case.

So Chris, the chance that you *have a PLL skip* is 1/27 * 1/72 = 1/1944 This of course assumes you don't do anything extra crazy to partially influence the orientation of corners during ZBF2L.

Remember that PLL is not a step in your method, it is a special sub-case of your method, the one that occurs 1/27 of the time when the last layer is oriented after ZBF2L. Using terminology in this way can lead to confusing claims of "I skipped PLL 20 times in a row" and counter-claims of "This is so completely improbable as to be effectively impossible".



Chris


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## Lucas Garron (Nov 9, 2009)

cmhardw said:


> Cubes=Life said:
> 
> 
> > deadalnix said:
> ...



No, we're not.
By the way, I've gotten 100 consecutive solves with 1LLL.


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## 4Chan (Nov 9, 2009)

Ah yes, youre definitely right Chris.

Sorry for the confusion I caused.


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## Zubon (Nov 9, 2009)

Edward said:


> iSpinz said:
> 
> 
> > Edward said:
> ...




I don't understand how you could get one PLL more than others simply by not using a computer generated scramble. Unless you were doing the same scramble over and over again, I am certain that doing the cross, inserting 4 F2L pairs and doing your OLL will well and truly scramble the last layer.

Think of the "butterfly effect". If you do two scrambles by hand which are similar except for a small difference, after all the steps, that small difference will be amplified.

I also think that I get the same PLL many times in a row but I think that is just psychology. Many combinations of PLLs will occur but we just notice them more if there are chains of consecutive ones.


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## cmhardw (Nov 9, 2009)

Lucas Garron said:


> > Yes, but we are using terminology incorrectly here
> 
> 
> No, we're not.
> By the way, I've gotten 100 consecutive solves with 1LLL.



Whoa, ok now I am totally confused. :confused:

How is using a ZBLL alg considered at the same time a PLL skip? I would think it better to say that a property of ZBLL is that each alg permutes all pieces to their correct location. To me, "skip" implies there is some element of chance involved with the step. Sure you can improve your chances of a skip, but there is still some "luck" element as to whether or not the skip happens.

Chris would always permute all pieces using a ZBLL alg, so there is no luck element here. He has a 100% chance to not only orient the corners, but permute all pieces to their correct location. I don't see how this counts as a PLL "skip". I would interpret this by saying that the permutation of all pieces is handled during the same step as the orientation of corners. Thus PLL (implying all pieces are oriented correctly, but need to be permuted) only happens in the same case for Chris that he has a 1/27 chance of all corners being oriented after ZBF2L. Given that he has all oriented corners, he has the same chance, 1/72 to skip PLL. This results in a 1/1944 chance of a "PLL skip" and here I mean "skip" in the same sense of implying that luck was involved in the skipping of the step.

Chris


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## Escher (Nov 9, 2009)

cmhardw said:


> Whoa, ok now I am totally confused. :confused:
> 
> Chris



Lucas' LL consists of 'PLL', his f2l consists of 'Cross -> 3 pairs -> EO & Last f2l Edge -> CO & Last f2l Corner'


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## cmhardw (Nov 9, 2009)

Escher said:


> cmhardw said:
> 
> 
> > Whoa, ok now I am totally confused. :confused:
> ...



I know how MGLS works, and that Lucas uses it, so I can see how you can get huge numbers of solves with a 1LLL. *Every* solve with MGLS is a 1LLL thinking of it this way. That makes sense to me.

What confuses me is that Lucas says that we are not using terminology incorrectly by referring to a ZBLL as a PLL skip. That's what confuses me. Perhaps we have different defintions of what PLL is?

Chris


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## Edward (Nov 9, 2009)

Zubon said:


> Edward said:
> 
> 
> > iSpinz said:
> ...



I always get the G perms I don't know, J's, and alot others. I rarely can dive right into PLL because the first case I get is one I don't know, which is why I notice how many times it comes up.


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## deadalnix (Nov 9, 2009)

If PLL isn't a step in the method, it's jsut stupid to pretend to have a PLL skip.

The only reason I can see is to make the attention whore by saying « hey guys, sometinme I got 20 PLL skip in a row » and get amazed answers about you, without any interest.

Making people speak of you, that's the only point of this knid of affirmation.


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## KConny (Nov 9, 2009)

I always get a Step 3 skip? I never get any bad edges?


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## AvGalen (Nov 9, 2009)

Edward said:


> ...
> I *always *get the G perms I don't know, J's, _and alot others_. I *rarely* can dive right into PLL because the first case I get is one I don't know, which is why I notice how many times it comes up.


(match the formatting)
And *that* is why I ask people for basic statistic knowledge. 
So _basically_ you get a lot of different PLL's but you think you always get the same one?


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## ben1996123 (Nov 9, 2009)

On my 5 OH solves at UK open, I got the same G perm every time ):


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## Ranzha (Nov 11, 2009)

ben1996123 said:


> On my 5 OH solves at UK open, I got the same G perm every time ):



Oh my, that is a shame.
If you knew it, you'd've been prepared.


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## CharlieCooper (Nov 11, 2009)

i am absolutely plagued by F perms right now.


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