# M2/R2 vs. 3-Cycle -- Move Count



## alexgoldberg (Jun 2, 2008)

I performed one solve with full M2/R2 and another with 3-cycle, both with the same scramble. If there are any mistakes, let me know. It looks like, although I thought it would be otherwise, M2/R2 has slightly fewer moves than 3-cycle. However, more examples will definitely be necessary to be sure. I'm sure you could eliminate some moves from the 3-cycle solve by doing more advanced corner orientation algorithms; I used only 2-twists. I'm not sure if anybody has done this comparison yet. If there is a thread that already exists, please link me.

I plan to do a couple more of these soon.
Enjoy.

L2 B2 L2 D R2 U2 B2 U' R2 F2 L' U' B' F' R D' U2 R' B' L' D (21f) (random, from Cube Explorer)

[M2/R2]
Corners: DFR buffer ( LUF > LDB > RBD > LFD > BUL > RFU > RDF )
L' U' L' U R2 U' L U L (9f)
L U' L' U R2 U' L U L' (9f)
R' U R2 U' R' F' R U R2 U' R' F (12f)
L2' U' L' U R2 U' L U L2' (9f)
U' F' L2' F U R2 U' F' L2' F U (11f)
R' U R2 U' R' F' R U R2 U' R' F (12f) (actually sending to RBD)
F’ (R’ D’ R D R’ D’ R – U – R’ D R D’ R’ D R – U’) F (18f) (fix orientation)
[80 turns]
Edges: FD buffer ( FR > UL > LB > DF ) ( FL > BU > FU > DR > RU > LD > LF )
x’ U’ R2 U M2 U’ R2 U x (7f)
x’ U L’ U’ M2 U L U’ x (7f)
U’ L U M2 U’ L’ U (7f)
x’ U L2 U’ M2 U L2 U’ x (7f)
M2 (1f)
M U2 M U2 (4f) (actually sending to BD)
x’ U’ R’ U M2 U’ R U x (7f)
R’ U R U’ M2 U R’ U’ R (9f)
U’ L2 U M2 U’ L2 U (7f)
U’ L’ U M2 U’ L U (7f)
[63 turns]
[143 total turns]

[3 Cycle]
Corner Orientation: 1 2ccw 3cw 4cw 5cw 6ccw 7 8ccw
y R’ D R D’ R’ D R – U – R’ D’ R D R’ D’ R – U’ y’ (16f)
z2 R’ D R D’ R’ D R – U’ – R’ D’ R D R’ D’ R – U z2 (16f)
L2 R’ D R D’ R’ D R – U’ – R’ D’ R D R’ D’ R – U L2 (18f)
[50 turns]
Edge Orientation: 1 8 10 12 (incorrect orientations)
R2 B – M’ U M’ U M’ U2 M U M U M U2 – B’ R2 (16f)
z2 y – M’ U M’ U M’ U2 M U M U M U2 – y’ z2 (12f)
[28 turns]
Corner Permutation: 1 6 7 5 2 4 8 1
y R2 – x R2 D2 R U R’ D2 R U’ R x’ – R2 y’ (11f) (not canceling R2s)
D2 R2 y2 – x R2 D2 R U R’ D2 R U’ R x’ – y2 R2 D2 (13f)
y’ D2 L2 – x R2 D2 R U R’ D2 R U’ R x’ – L2 D2 y (13f)
[37 turns]
Edge Permutation: (1 12 4 10 5 3 1) (2 6 9 8 2)
 y’ D L2 – M2 U’ M’ U2 M U’ M2 – L2 D’ y (11f)
U’ F L2 – M2 U M U2 M’ U M2 – L2 F’ U (13f)
y R’ L2 – M2 U’ M’ U2 M U’ M2 – L2 R y’ (11f)
U F’ – M2 U M2 U2 M2 U M2 – F U2 (11f)
[46 turns]
[161 total turns]


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## Lucas Garron (Jun 2, 2008)

L2 B2 L2 D R2 U2 B2 U' R2 F2 L' U' B' F' R D' U2 R' B' L' D


3OP:

xL'F' M'U'M'U'M'U'M'UM'U'M'U'M'U'M'U FLx' (20)
R' z2 RUR'U'M'URU'r'FRUR'U'RUR'U'F' z2 R (20)
U L'U'LU'L'U2L RUR'URU2R' U' (16)
x' L2' URU' L2' UR'U' x (8)
U L2'D R2D' L2'D R2D'U' (9a)
U2 D'L2 DR2 D'L2 DR2 U2 (10)
U2RUR'U'R'U'R'URU' (11)
xy' R R2URUR'U'R'U'R'UR2' yx' (12)
y' L'URUR'U'R'U'R'UR L (12)
UR' M2'U'M2'U2'M2'U'M2' RU' (11)

(129 total [63 corners, 66 edges], but the exact number is not too important)


M2 (edges only):

x' U'R2U M2 U'R2U
UL'U' M2 ULU' x
U'LU M2 U'L'U
U'L2U M2 U'L2 U
U'L'U M2 U'LU
UB'RU'B M2 B'UR'BU'
x M'URU'MUR'U' x'
B'RB M2 B'R'B
BLB' M2 BL'B'

(68, but move cancellations easily bring this down to 60.)


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## dbeyer (Jun 2, 2008)

Corner Solution:
R' D'L2D R D'L2D
F U2 FD2F' U2 FD2F2
D2 FU'F' D2 FUF'
y' R'U'RU'R'U2R LUL'ULU2L' y

Edge Solution:
l'U2R E2 R'U2R E2 x'
B' R B'M2B R' B'M2B2
UM'U' R2 UMU' R2
L'E2L U2 L'E2L U2
D2BD S2 D'B'D S2 D (u'D' L D M2 D'L'D M2 u)

81 or 82 moves depending on how you'd handle that last cycle ...


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## dbeyer (Jun 2, 2008)

To be honest here's a variation:
Edge Solution:
l'U2R E2 R'U2R E2 x'
B' R B'M2B R' B'M2B2
----
U'M2U R2 U'M2U R2
rU2L' E LU2L' E' x'
U M' ULU' M UL'U2


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## Stefan (Jun 2, 2008)

I hate to say this, but M/M2/M' aren't "1f".


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## joey (Jun 2, 2008)

43 corners
45 edges
First scramble. Using freestyle. Having to orient two corners at the end killed it.


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## dbeyer (Jun 3, 2008)

I could take that solution down to sub 80 ... for the sake of move count, as I'd be more likely to do it this way 
Check this:
Corner Solution:

F'LF R' FL'F R
BL'B' R2 BLB' R2
R' B2 R'F'R B2 R'FR2
R B2 RF'R' B2 RFR2

77 moves with my second edge solution, and yes I would solve the cube like this blindfolded.


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## Mike Hughey (Jun 3, 2008)

Daniel, I think you messed up the first commutator on that (you left out a ') - it's:
F'LF R' F'L'F R

I am starting to play with the BH algorithms a bit - they're pretty awesome. I hope they don't prove to be too much for me to learn.


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## alexc (Jun 3, 2008)

1.) R' B D2 U' B F U' B F R2 B2 L2 B' D2 B' F' L R' F L F' D' R' B F2
2.) F D B' F2 L' B2 D2 R U' F2 D B F L2 R' D U' R B L' R F L2 R B'
3.) R D F2 D F R2 B F L D U B D2 U2 F2 D' U F D' L' R' B F2 D' U'

Everyone can post there blindfolded solutions to these scrambles using their own method, just make sure to tell what your method/s is/are so we can compare move count, learn from each other approaches, etc. Good luck!


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## alexc (Jun 3, 2008)

Method: M2 edges + 3OP corners

*1.)*
CO
L U L' U L U2 L' R' U' R U' R' U2 R (Orient two corners)
y R2 R U R' U R U2 R' U R2 U' R' U' R U R U R U' R U R2 y' (Orient three corners)
(36)

Edges (Buffer=FD)
M2 (Shoot to BU)
x' R U' R' U M2 U' R U R' x (Shoot to BR)
U R2 U' M2 U R2 U' (Shoot to RD)
U' L2 U M2 U' L2 U (Shoot to LD)
L U' L' U M2 U' L U L' (Shoot to LU)
x' U L2 U' M2 U L2 U' x (Shoot to FL)
x' U' R U M2 U' R' U x (Shoot to UR)
D M' U R2 U' M U R2 U' D' M2 (Shoot to UF)
U' L U M2 U' L' U (Shoot to LB)
F2 U' F2 M2 F2 U F2 (Parity alg)
x M' U' M' U' M' U2 M U' M U' M U2 x'
(84)

CP
R2 x L' D L' U2 L D' L' U2 L2 x' R2 (1 4 7)
y2 (R2 D R2 D' R2 U2)*2 y2 (1 3 5)
D2 B2 R U R' U' R' F R2 U' R' U' R U R' F' B2 D2 (Parity)
(41)

*Total:* 161

Wow, I really want to switch to freestyle corners, orientation just eats up move count.

I will do the others later.


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## masterofthebass (Jun 3, 2008)

1.)

Edges:
M2
x' R' U' R U M2 U' R' U R x
U R2 U' M2 U R2 U'
U' L2 U M2 U' L2 U
L U' L' U M2 U' L U L'
x' U L2 U' M2 U L2 U' x
x' U' R U M2 U' R' U x
M' F' L2 F M F' L2 F (M' comm come in handy )
U' F2 U M2 U' F2 U (Parity Fix)
x (M' U)*3 U (M U)*3 U x' (I'm counting the move cancellation)
(74)


Corners: (I'm not going to write out the Y perm every time )
R2 (Y Perm) R2
R' (Y Perm) R
D R2 B' R B' L2 B R' B' L2 B2 R2 D'
(Y Perm)
D F2 D' R U2 R' D2 R U2 R' D' F2 D'
x' U R U' R' U R U' L' U R' U' R U R' U' L x
(97)

Total: 171

If only I didn't have to orient those 2 corners at the end. It would've been a little better. Y perm corners uses so many moves!


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## dbeyer (Jun 3, 2008)

D2RD L2 D'R'D L2 D
D2L2D R2 D'L2D R2 D
R'D2R U R'D2R U'
UL2U' R' UL2U' R
D2B2D F2 D'B2D F2 D

B' LS'L' B LSL'
DR2D' M2 DR2D' M2
U2 S2 UBU' S2 UB'U
y' M'U2MU2M'U2MU2 y (For the sake of center safety)
U' R'ER U RE'R
FR'F' M FRF' M'

Parity Fix:
D [L'ULUL'U'LFL'U'LULF'L'] D'


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## MiloD (Jun 7, 2008)

I don't think move count is very important in bld...well, at least not as important as the conceptual chunks.


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## masterofthebass (Jun 7, 2008)

Move count is only a factor when you are getting ridiculous memo times. Rowe Hessler just learned Y perm corners today, and loves them, except he can't get a really fast time because of all the moves. Don't get me wrong, 1:20s isn't slow by any means, but he said he used to get like 10s for his corners with his other method... which is just insane.


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## joey (Jun 7, 2008)

Move count is. I can nearly always execute 30moves, faster than 100.


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## alexc (Jun 7, 2008)

masterofthebass said:


> Move count is only a factor when you are getting ridiculous memo times. Rowe Hessler just learned Y perm corners today, and loves them, except he can't get a really fast time because of all the moves. Don't get me wrong, 1:20s isn't slow by any means, but he said he used to get like 10s for his corners with his other method... which is just insane.



With freestyle you mean? I really want to start experimenting with freestyle corners.


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## masterofthebass (Jun 7, 2008)

I'm pretty sure he permuted with easy comms, and kept track of orientation, which he id at the end. It was pretty insane, but it's a lot to memorize.


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## fanwuq (Jun 9, 2008)

alexc's sample solve was very useful for me to learn M2. 
I don't understand why 

"M2 (Shoot to FU)"
Isn't that BU?

"D M' U R2 U' M U R2 U' D' M2 (Shoot to UF)"
Isn't that BD?


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## masterofthebass (Jun 9, 2008)

fanwuq... it seems like you actually understand the method  

The FU thing was a typo (i think)

Also, for the UF thing, I think that he was shooting to UF when the centers were flipped, so it was the same algorithm as shooting to BD.


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## fanwuq (Jun 9, 2008)

Dan, 

How does this Y-perm corner work?


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## alexc (Jun 10, 2008)

@fanwuq

Yes, FU was a typo. I meant BU.


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## masterofthebass (Jun 10, 2008)

The Y perm corner method is basically setting up everything to a Y perm, swapping the ULB and URF corners. You set up the corner to URF and do a Y perm. It's explained on stefan's site.


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## DennisStrehlau (Jun 11, 2008)

hey guys...
alexander yu is very fast with M2...
what do you think, how fast you can do all edges with M2 in average???
i use y-perm and M2 now...i just started with that, how fast do you think, you can get with this?
edges and corners, what do you think???

Greetings...Dennis


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## Mike Hughey (Jun 11, 2008)

DennisStrehlau said:


> hey guys...
> alexander yu is very fast with M2...
> what do you think, how fast you can do all edges with M2 in average???
> i use y-perm and M2 now...i just started with that, how fast do you think, you can get with this?
> ...



Well, Derrick has done all Old Pochmann in sub-1, and I would say M2 can go at least 10 to 15 seconds faster than that, so I would say probably sub-45, anyway.


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## masterofthebass (Jun 11, 2008)

I can probably average executions sub-45. I personally don't think I execute M2 as fast as it can be, but my edges are always around 20s (usually lower). Using Y perm corners is the thing that takes the most time.


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## Mike Hughey (Jun 11, 2008)

I actually meant memo plus execution, sorry if that was unclear. But that would probably be an easy solve. And that requires being as fast at Y perms as it appears Derrick is, which is pretty fast.


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## Dene (Jun 11, 2008)

Oh dear, sub50 averages coming from you soon Dennis? I look forward to the videos!!!


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