# SpeedStacks WCA Timer



## Tyson (Aug 28, 2009)

I just got off a conversation with SpeedStacks and they want to work with the WCA to design a timer specifically for cubing.

There are certainly a lot of issues we can address here, and many ways to improve the StackMat timer to suit WCA competitions. So I'd like to open this up for discussion, but it would be best if posts are concise and too the point, and you're not responding unless you really have something truly to add. Otherwise, it will be difficult to sort through everything and figure out what changes we want to make to design a better timer.

SpeedStacks has a patent on this one idea... so simple really: two hands to start the timer, two hands to stop the timer! That's it! And that's basically one of the defining features that makes these timers usable for the WCA.

Anyway, we should probably start by identifying problems that we encounter in WCA competitions before we discuss solutions and improvements. I can think of the following off the top of my head:

1. +2 for starting and stopping the timer while in contact with the puzzle. Eliminating this possibility would be nice, if we could eliminate the ability to stop or start the timer while touching the puzzle.

Other features, like scramble generation, and statistics are more frills. We can talk about those later.


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## PatrickJameson (Aug 28, 2009)

http://www.speedsolving.com/forum/showthread.php?p=190911#post190911


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## mazei (Aug 28, 2009)

The fact that it can sometimes get a 0.02-0.0x if you aren't careful at all.

And perhaps a way to remove DNS's??


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## Bryan (Aug 28, 2009)

mazei said:


> And perhaps a way to remove DNS's??



Can you clarify what DNS situations? 

I think being able to measure pre-inspection time might be good.

A guard on the reset button.

One thing we should do is to get some quote on how much the features would cost to implement.


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## JBCM627 (Aug 28, 2009)

mazei said:


> The fact that it can sometimes get a 0.02-0.0x if you aren't careful


Perhaps to fix this, use large 'buttons' instead of the pressure-sensitive pads.



Bryan said:


> A guard on the reset button.


And the power button.


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## gogozerg (Aug 28, 2009)

Cube competition timer must have a mode for timing preinspection.

1- Competitor puts his hands on pads. Cube is hidden.
2- Competitor triggers the 15s countdown by removing his hands from pads, uncovers the cube and inspects. Countdown displayed on screen.
3- Competitor has 15s to start the solve (= trigger the timer again, while countdown goes on). Timer emits a "beep" at 10, 11, 12, 13, 14.
4- Solve not started at 15s -> Timer emits says "BEEEEEP".

-> Not more judges interfering, no more stopwatches, and competitors perfectly informed of time left.
-> Same timer as today, with a loud speaker, and a new software.


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## Tyson (Aug 28, 2009)

gogozerg said:


> Cube competition timer must have a mode for timing preinspection.
> 
> 1- Competitor puts his hands on pads. Cube is hidden.
> 2- Competitor triggers the 15s countdown by removing his hands from pads, uncovers the cube and inspects. Countdown displayed on screen.
> ...



Don't you think the implementation of Step 1 might drive up the cost a lot?

Oh lol... no no, right. Like a BLD start. The timer doesn't cover it for you


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## pjk (Aug 28, 2009)

PatrickJameson said:


> http://www.speedsolving.com/forum/showthread.php?p=190911#post190911


I emailed Bob Fox about this, and he forwarded me to their engineer who built it. I never heard back from him about it.

I will email him again to find out what's going on. 

I was describing the situation to Daniel Hayes and he brought up that it may have a bit to do with Benford's Law. I looked at it a bit more, but the results don't seem follow Benford's Law too well.


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## hr.mohr (Aug 28, 2009)

External power supply for the displays would be nice. Timers could also draw power from the displays when connected.

What about a bluetooth interface? That would make connecting the timer really easy and perhaps enable connecting to programs running on mobile phones or pda's.


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## Lars Petrus (Aug 28, 2009)

This may seem a little odd, but it solves real problems, so give it a chance.

I'd want to replace the flat rubber surface with some kind of soft basket. Imagine a small basketball hoop with the net tied together. The problems that would solve are...

1. You can't hit the sensors while still holding the cube. The solve is not valid unless the cube is in the basket.

2. You don't have to drop the cube on the table, thereby avoiding cube damage and unintended extra turns

Also...

3. It looks cool.

4. It would make the much more TV friendly duel version of the sport possible. First solved cube in the basket wins! No boring waiting and math to find the winner.


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## emu (Aug 28, 2009)

> I'd want to replace the flat rubber surface with some kind of soft basket. Imagine a small basketball hoop with the net tied together



That's a very good idea, but perhaps you could just make a small barrier that stands up a few inches between the hand sensors and where the cube should end up. Also, the barrier should be right up against the hand sensors, so that the only possible way to press the sensors is with the very fingertips (like the WCA says); this way cheating would be much more obvious. I think that people stopping/starting the stackmat with their palms/wrists is definitely one of the StackMat's greatest flaws for cubing.

Also some extra padding would obviously help, so that the cube doesn't get beat up.


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## Kidstardust (Aug 28, 2009)

1. A Display with lights. 
2. more than 10 minutes for a timer because iam not sub 10 7x7 yet


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## Regisiew (Aug 28, 2009)

Along with having the stackmat timer countdown, if possible, at least make it so you don't have to wait for the green light to show up, because that makes the 15 seconds, like 13 seconds. Importing scrambles would also be nice, and doing at least an average of 5 would be awesome. People who use up all the time to inspect (like me) need he feature of not having to wait for the green light.

EDIT: Also, because of the patent with starting and stopping with 2 hands, I don't know if your saying that we can't have that feature with the WCA one, but if we can't, then we might be able to incorporate something like a sensitive area, were if you drop the cube their, the timer will stop, which will get rid of the puzzle hitting the time issues. Also, you can start by having the cube on the sensitive mat, so if you don't take it off in 15 seconds and start solving, it's a DNF. This will resolve many issues concerning hitting the timer with the cube, and the patent.


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## cmhardw (Aug 28, 2009)

1) Extending the auto shut-off to 1 hour would allow multi BLD to be timed on a Stackmet (not to mention big cubes BLD for most people).

2) In competitions in the Southeast we disqualify tons of solves for people who sit when doing their solves, and stop the timer at 0.22 or 0.19 or similar times because their wrists stop the timer as they pick up the cube. This doesn't necessarily have to be implemented into the timer, we could just say "sit at your own risk," or "your fault for stopping the timer incorrectly (before the solve end)". But, if there is an easy way to fix this on the timer that would be cool though. Maybe the timer could register the "false stop", but contniue timing. Regulation could penalize this with a +2. This idea almost sounds too complicated though, and the more I think about it the easier it would be to just give a DNF for "incorrect timer usage."

I'll try to think of more ideas, but those come to mind immediately.

Chris


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## Bryan (Aug 28, 2009)

gogozerg said:


> Cube competition timer must have a mode for timing preinspection.
> 
> 1- Competitor puts his hands on pads. Cube is hidden.
> 2- Competitor triggers the 15s countdown by removing his hands from pads, uncovers the cube and inspects. Countdown displayed on screen.
> ...



The problem with the beeps is that the volume is never going to be correct. In quiet scenarios, it's going to be too loud, in loud scenarios, too quiet. I would prefer to just have two extra LED's that indicate you've passed certain pre-inspection points (like 8 seconds and 12 seconds). The judge would have to call these. Now, it would be nice if these could be set, but that would be a lot of complexity we may not need. In the end, display the solve time and the inspection time (down where the clock currently is). And then penalties can be applied accordingly.


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## GermanCube (Aug 28, 2009)

It should be able to save some times and calculate an average of 5/12.

And a USB connection would be cool, so you can have your headset + Timer working at the same time...


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## JBCM627 (Aug 28, 2009)

Regisiew said:


> at least make it so you don't have to wait for the green light to show up, because that makes the 15 seconds, like 13 seconds


I was thinking about that too, and agree with that. I think the green light was needed because the pressure-sensitive pads were too sensitive; perhaps using buttons could fix this in addition to the .02 error.


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## Pedro (Aug 28, 2009)

This sounds cool, but here are 2 things worrying me a bit:

1 - How much will it cost? I mean, people all over the world have invested quite a bit of money on equipment. We'd need to buy a LOT of those new timers.

2 - What will happen to current times/records? Will they be erased? I don't think it's "fair" to compare times with different equipment.


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## TEGTaylor (Aug 28, 2009)

cmhardw said:


> 1) Extending the auto shut-off to 1 hour would allow multi BLD to be timed on a Stackmet (not to mention big cubes BLD for most people).
> 
> 2) In competitions in the Southeast we disqualify tons of solves for people who sit when doing their solves, and stop the timer at 0.22 or 0.19 or similar times because their wrists stop the timer as they pick up the cube. This doesn't necessarily have to be implemented into the timer, we could just say "sit at your own risk," or "your fault for stopping the timer incorrectly (before the solve end)". But, if there is an easy way to fix this on the timer that would be cool though. Maybe the timer could register the "false stop", but contniue timing. Regulation could penalize this with a +2. This idea almost sounds too complicated though, and the more I think about it the easier it would be to just give a DNF for "incorrect timer usage."
> 
> ...


 I think it is unfair to hand out DNFs for stoping the timer accidentally, I think it should have two modes, one of them, for most events, that will not stop the timer until it is over one second, another, for things like magic master magic and maybe even pyraminx, Where sub 1's would be allowed.


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## cmhardw (Aug 28, 2009)

TEGTaylor said:


> I think it is unfair to hand out DNFs for stoping the timer accidentally...



In case anyone else is wondering about this, here is why we do that:

A6b) It is the competitor's responsibility that the timer is stopped correctly.



TEGTaylor said:


> ...I think it should have two modes, one of them, for most events, that will not stop the timer until it is over one second, another, for things like magic master magic and maybe even pyraminx, Where sub 1's would be allowed.



I think this is making the equipment costs too high.

I do see a problem though with people talking about a timer that tracks pre-inspection. If the timer is to do this, then this mode must be able to be toggled off for BLD events. This increases costs too. I think a pre-inspection mode should not be included for this reason. The only exception to this would be if the costs/budget for the timer allow for it (and it is worth it).

Chris


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## brunson (Aug 28, 2009)

cmhardw said:


> I do see a problem though with people talking about a timer that tracks pre-inspection. If the timer is to do this, then this mode must be able to be toggled off for BLD events. This increases costs too. I think a pre-inspection mode should not be included for this reason. The only exception to this would be if the costs/budget for the timer allow for it (and it is worth it).
> 
> Chris


Also, just in the short time I've been competing the inspection rules changed. And if Ton got his way it would go away completely and we'd all need new timers.


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## Regisiew (Aug 28, 2009)

Well if the timer stopped when the puzzle hit the mat (the mat would have to be pressure sensitive), not your hands hitting the timer, and the timer started when your puzzle came off the mat, I think that could fix a lot of problems. We wouldn't need a stopwatch because if you don't take the puzzle off before 15 seconds is up, you get DNF'd. This would also fix the problem with having to wait for the green light. Considering cost I'm not sure if it would work, but it would get rid of the problem with the starting with and ending with 2 hand patent that speedstacks has, and many others as well.


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## brunson (Aug 28, 2009)

Rubik's made a timer with a pressure sensitive pad, didn't they? I've seen pics.

http://www.rubiks.com/Shop/Products/Rubiks%20Timer.aspx

Other than the extravagant price, what are its downsides?


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## cmhardw (Aug 28, 2009)

brunson said:


> Other than the extravagant price, what are its downsides?



Possibility of U layers turns before and after the puzzle starts/stops the timer.

Chris


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## shelley (Aug 28, 2009)

Pedro said:


> 2 - What will happen to current times/records? Will they be erased? I don't think it's "fair" to compare times with different equipment.



Two major things have happened since the WCA started recording times:

1. Switch from Gen 1 to Gen 2 stackmat timers
2. New starting procedures

Is it "fair" to compare times recorded under all those different conditions? Maybe not, but ideally the new timers shouldn't change things too much so that the times can still be comparable.

The Gen 1 timers could not be stopped before 0.32 seconds had passed. This meant no timer malfunctions of 0.0x. If the timer was accidentally stopped before the solve was finished it's clearly the competitor's fault. It's not like anything can be solved in under 0.32 anyway (when the Magic WR reaches 0.4 or 0.5, then we'll talk)

Gen 2 timers have very sensitive touch pads. Basically they're heat sensitive; we've had some old timers where the sensors can be triggered by just hovering your hand over the pad without actually touching it. This can result in timer malfunctions. Do we need the pads to be that sensitive? Most people slam the timer pretty hard when they finish. I don't think we'd lose much by having a button or a pressure sensitive pad like the Gen 1 timers.


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## shelley (Aug 28, 2009)

brunson said:


> Rubik's made a timer with a pressure sensitive pad, didn't they? I've seen pics.
> 
> http://www.rubiks.com/Shop/Products/Rubiks%20Timer.aspx
> 
> Other than the extravagant price, what are its downsides?



Surely you've fumbled and dropped a cube during a one handed solve before.


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## StachuK1992 (Aug 28, 2009)

This might be an odd request, but perhaps having some sort of height measuring device connected to the stackmat for checking if a Magic solve is +2 or not might be neat.


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## brunson (Aug 28, 2009)

shelley said:


> brunson said:
> 
> 
> > Rubik's made a timer with a pressure sensitive pad, didn't they? I've seen pics.
> ...


/brunson skillfully avoids seeing the blatantly obvious...


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## JBCM627 (Aug 28, 2009)

Stachuk1992 said:


> This might be an odd request, but perhaps having some sort of height measuring device connected to the stackmat for checking if a Magic solve is +2 or not might be neat.


Or we could just change the magic regulations since they suck anyway.


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## Bryan (Aug 28, 2009)

cmhardw said:


> TEGTaylor said:
> 
> 
> > I think it is unfair to hand out DNFs for stoping the timer accidentally...
> ...



What's wrong with making a blind person put their hands on the timer, pick them up, put them back down, and then pick them up and take the cover off the cube? I can't see throwing away such a valuable and useful feature that can easily be worked around.


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## mr.onehanded (Aug 28, 2009)

I think it should look cooler than the blue, maybe some cube colored squares on it, or at least the black and green like the one for cup stacking. 

Maybe there could be a square drawn on the mat to place the cube before solving.

This is an good example of what I meant by cube colored. http://bedzine.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/rubik-cube-clock.jpg

Some people might find that too flamboyant, what do you think?


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## StachuK1992 (Aug 28, 2009)

If there were some sort of 'custom' casing or whatnot that'd be cool.
Something like supporting whatever method they do, like 'Rebels use Salvia,' or perhaps like 'Do the sexy move' with some sort of custom casing, but this really isn't needed.

Also, of course, built-in averaging would be really nice for home use, as would USB connection.


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## mr.onehanded (Aug 28, 2009)

Stachuk1992 said:


> If there were some sort of 'custom' casing or whatnot that'd be cool.
> Something like supporting whatever method they do, like 'Rebels use Salvia,' or perhaps like 'Do the sexy move' with some sort of custom casing, but this really isn't needed.
> 
> Also, of course, built-in averaging would be really nice for home use, as would USB connection.



definitely USB.


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## waffle=ijm (Aug 28, 2009)

Stachuk1992 said:


> If there were some sort of 'custom' casing or whatnot that'd be cool.
> Something like supporting whatever method they do, like 'Rebels use Salvia,' or perhaps like 'Do the sexy move' with some sort of custom casing, but this really isn't needed.
> 
> Also, of course, built-in averaging would be really nice for home use, as would USB connection.



wouldn't this be too over-the-top? the cost would be too much with custom casings. I'd rather make my own "Roux Rebellion" sticker and stick on my timer. 

Like you said it's not needed.

The things that I'd like to see on this timer would be
- pads that aren't too sensitive...
- larger display
- USB connection and and built in averaging for both 5 and 12 solves


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## Vulosity (Aug 28, 2009)

Stachuk1992 said:


> If there were some sort of 'custom' casing or whatnot that'd be cool.
> Something like supporting whatever method they do, like 'Rebels use Salvia,' or perhaps like 'Do the sexy move' with some sort of custom casing, but this really isn't needed.



A fully white case would be nice. Then, you could use permanent markers to write anything you want. 

Things I'd like to see: 
-Averages
-Make the overall timer size a tad smaller


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## Swordsman Kirby (Aug 28, 2009)

Besides what has already been suggested, I'm all for a smaller mat. Something along the lines of this:

http://i32.tinypic.com/dzfbwk.jpg (my blindfold is not purple!)

For cupstacking, it has a purpose, but for cubing, we don't need that much room for the mat (maaaybe for OVER 9000 multi).


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## Jai (Aug 28, 2009)

What about attachable modules? They could be available as separate accessories (and some could even come with the stackmat). You could have:

- a module that tracks times and calculates averages
- a light for cubing in the dark
- scramble generator (with the ability to add different puzzles and scrambles through some sort of software on a computer)
- something to make the sensor pads larger for people who need it
[that's all I can think of for now]

Being able to take apart and rearrange the modules and the stackmat parts would be cool as well. You could have two sensors together and a timer at the side, the timer at the side with a light module in between the pads, and so on. I got this idea from the LG Versa phone, which has attachable modules, such as a keyboard or a D-pad for gaming.

EDIT: And of course, corrected time distribution and precision. I just didn't mention it because lots of other people already have.


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## Lars Petrus (Aug 28, 2009)

In general, it is best to not worry about the cost implications in a discussion like this. If you're not a Stackmat engineer, it is very hard to know what the price implications of different features really are. Leave it to the pros to figure that stuff out. Our expertise is what cubers really want.

It is also not good for creativity to self censor ideas. Some times you have an idea that solves a problem, but costs too much, but someone else can come up with a variation that is simpler. That would not have happened had you not mentioned the first unbaked idea.

The end result of this discussion is probably a wish list of features, that Stackmats will then look at and evaluate how feasible they are, and then this reiterates several times.


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## Lucas Garron (Aug 28, 2009)

I think the timing distribution is a big issue that needs to be fixed. Speed Stacks advertises "Stackma accuracy," and I think it is their responsibility to back up that claim now. I won't consider the timer fixed until the accuracy is actually corrected (and not just using a hack, like random rounding to even the distribution).

Timer: "precision time" and "accurately time your stack in hundreths [sic] of a second."
StackPod: "displaying every second with StackMat accuracy."

I like the idea of incorporating inspection. However, for this feature, and others like it, I'd like to emphasize the option to change any settings, like the value of "15" seconds.

Also, official computer interaction would be nice. Perhaps this could even be used to transfer settings to the timer (so that you can just plug it in, and transfer current WCA settings on). I would also lobby for an open implementation (with an API?) of the Stackmat signals. It's worth it for them to let interested cubers develop software that interacts with the Stackmat timer.


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## rjohnson_8ball (Aug 28, 2009)

It's disturbing to see "2: 3.45" rather than "2:03.45". This is a programming mistake in the chip. It's small details like this that affect the perceived quality of a product.

I would like to save more than just 3 times (with timestamps). Maybe a person could choose a puzzle type from a list and attach it with the time.

As someone said before, it might be nice to display the last 12 solves, with best and worst in parentheses, and the average of the remaining 10.

My top issue is that it needs to record over 10 minutes. I think 59:59.99 would be a nice limit.


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## brunson (Aug 28, 2009)

Lars Petrus said:


> In general, it is best to not worry about the cost implications in a discussion like this. If you're not a Stackmat engineer, it is very hard to know what the price implications of different features really are. Leave it to the pros to figure that stuff out. Our expertise is what cubers really want.
> 
> It is also not good for creativity to self censor ideas. Some times you have an idea that solves a problem, but costs too much, but someone else can come up with a variation that is simpler. That would not have happened had you not mentioned the first unbaked idea.
> 
> The end result of this discussion is probably a wish list of features, that Stackmats will then look at and evaluate how feasible they are, and then this reiterates several times.


Definitely sound logic.

An interesting side question would be: How much would you pay for a timer? Assuming that it had the majority of the main features *you* would like to see, regardless of what they are, what would you be willing to pay for it? Especially think about buying more than one, since I have one at home and one on my desk at work and I like that.

I don't really see me spending more than $35 or $40 for a timer. I think the $20 price point the current timer is at is a good one.

More on topic: I agree that official support for a computer interface would be really, really good. With an open API so we don't have to rely on SpeedStacks to support platforms like Linux.


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## Carson (Aug 28, 2009)

Mat: Not quite as wide but a little "deeper." It is often a tight fit to get two mats side-by-side on many of the tables that we have used. The mats could also stand to be slightly thicker. 

Timer: I like the idea of the usb interface. At the most basic level, this could simply dump times into a text file on a flash drive. It would be nice to also have the ability to connect to a pc. I will leave the dicussion of the possibilities on this to the experts. One additional thought on this: wouldn't it be great to have the ability to flash the (insert technical term here) or whatever it utilizes with a new firmware?

I hate that the timer does not have a true "off" setting. Please fix this... not that the simple time/date display drains that much juice, it's just annoying.

Perhaps there could be some modification to the general shape of the timer so that the competitor cannot touch the puzzle and both sensors at once. I would say that the sensors could just be placed further apart, but that would make the timer pretty large. 

Tournament Display: Someone mentioned an external power supply. I don't see that we really need to make any changes to the display. It functions great already, and why spend money on new ones. I am planning to mod my display to run on external power soon... maybe even this afternoon. This should be a fairly cheap and very easy mod that most anyone can do themselves. If it works out ok, I will make a youtube vid explaining it.


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## 04mucklowd (Aug 28, 2009)

Have a timer that is more dure-able

(My reset button has vertially stopped working)


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## blade740 (Aug 28, 2009)

All the caltech displays have already been modded to accept external power, so it's obviously a wanted feature.

A good speedcubing timer will have a big enough display to show it easily on video. Maybe use a bit bigger screen and numbers like the red ones on the display (but smaller). It would make it easier for judges standing/sitting off to the side to read the times as well.


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## ben1996123 (Aug 28, 2009)

I think competitions should use CCT.


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## jcuber (Aug 29, 2009)

I would like to have some way to link the timers for races?


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## Kit Clement (Aug 29, 2009)

- To avoid 0.02s, they could raise the minimum time threshold to 0.25 or something like that to avoid this problem. 
- For longer events, it would be nice to see that 10 minute limit removed/raised. 
- Moving the reset button so that it's not on the top would avoid more timing errors. It doesn't happen that often, but I have slammed my hand/cube onto the reset button accidently and erased my time.
- I know Tyson mentioned statistics as frills, but I would love to see avg5/12 on screen as well as USB connection. 
- Backlighting the screen like on the glow-in-the-dark models would be nice for all models. If this were to happen though, coin batteries would need to go, as the power drains much faster on my glow-in-the-dark timer rather than my competition timer. It would be nice to see AA batteries used instead of coin batteries anyway, they're much more accessible.


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## shelley (Aug 29, 2009)

ben1996123 said:


> I think competitions should use CCT.



That's nice. Did you have anything productive to add to this discussion?


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## JBCM627 (Aug 29, 2009)

kippy33 said:


> To avoid 0.02s, they could raise the minimum time threshold to 0.25 or something like that to avoid this problem.


This would be bad for ball-in-cup. I like my idea of using buttons instead of pressure-sensitive pads better 



kippy33 said:


> It would be nice to see AA batteries used instead of coin batteries anyway, they're much more accessible.


Excellent idea.


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## fanwuq (Aug 29, 2009)

The timers, not just the displays should accept external power. I would like the timers to be rechargeable like cameras or cell phones. 
Also it would be nice to be able to save times onto a USB drive if it is plugged in.
I also agree with making it more durable, precise, and accurate.
The mat isn't so much of a deal, just bring your padding.


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## Edmund (Aug 29, 2009)

The top of my timer has small dents in it because the cube has slammed into it so harder to dent would be nice and the .02 thing I know has been brought up and definately that.


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## jtjogobonito (Aug 29, 2009)

Personally, I would rather pick up the cube from the sides rather than the front. I think the new timer should be similar to the Gen 1 timers, in that, the touch pads are part of the timer and the display is not "". I think a pad the size that Swordsman Kirby suggested would be good, except it would have the small display on the bottom (with buttons and the like). I would also like larger, red numbers, for the display, and AA batteries as previously stated.


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## Bryan (Aug 29, 2009)

kippy33 said:


> - Backlighting the screen like on the glow-in-the-dark models would be nice for all models. If this were to happen though, coin batteries would need to go, as the power drains much faster on my glow-in-the-dark timer rather than my competition timer. It would be nice to see AA batteries used instead of coin batteries anyway, they're much more accessible.



I can see why you'd want backlit for cupstacking. Glow-in-the-dark cups, and you're set. But for cubing, you need decent lighting to cube.


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## TimMc (Aug 29, 2009)

*Competition Timer:*
- Extend max time from 10min to 1hr
- Thinner and sleeker design
- Increase surface area of sensors
- Hardier surface
- Larger LCD that's closer to the top for easy viewing
- Durable buttons
- Move 2.5mm socket?

*Personal Timer:*
- Have preset formats to save Average/Best times per puzzle
- USB connector to upload data and to interface with a PC

Tim.


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## blade740 (Aug 29, 2009)

Bryan said:


> I can see why you'd want backlit for cupstacking. Glow-in-the-dark cups, and you're set. But for cubing, you need decent lighting to cube.



I find that the lighting needed to cube (especially just for practice) is lower than the light needed to easily read those liquid crystal displays.


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## cubeninjaIV (Aug 29, 2009)

it would be nice to hav etimers communicate with computers via bluetooth/usb but then theres the problem of ensuring the times go under the correct competitor
the giant mats arent neccesary either they barely fit on my desk
external power supply or AA/AAA batteries 
a reset button thats more difficult to acidently press


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## qqwref (Aug 29, 2009)

I also think the timers should be significantly less sensitive. Ideally, they should never stop in under (say) 0.1 second, never stop when only one hand is there (even if the timer is well-used), and never turn off or reset because of hitting the table/timer hard when stopping it (I believe this fault is not always due to physically hitting the reset button).

I'd also like a larger or more obvious display (a small, relatively dim, red LED display would be nice, for the judges as well as for low-light situations). We don't need date/time, and I don't think it's really essential to have any kind of feature where PBs and averages can be stored/computed (if you need stuff computed or stored, you should just do it on your computer), so I wouldn't suggest adding that kind of stuff unless it can be done for no extra money (ha!). If you insist on having those kind of features, it would be nice to be able to buy a stripped-down version that's just a timer.

Few people here have mentioned this, but I think it's important that the timer have a pretty much equal distribution of times with respect to hundredths. That is, it should run on 100 Hz, not 60 Hz. This is important for any event that is sufficiently popular to have many ties in the single solve rankings (such as magic or even 3x3x3). Similarly I agree that the timer should go up to 60 minutes for the longer events.


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## Kuraudo39 (Aug 29, 2009)

Definitely a more durable surface. I would lol if the timer split in half when I dropped a puzzle on it. Maybe a mat that had a rubber coating for awesome non-slipperiness.


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## riffz (Aug 30, 2009)

I'd say smaller but thicker mats, corrected time distribution, and AAA batteries. (AAs might be too big.)


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## Hadley4000 (Aug 30, 2009)

I see a problem with the timer keeping track of averages. At a lot of competitions, the same person will not use the same timer 5 times in a row. There often times are more cubers than timers, and even with 2 groups, people often will need to share.

I think the timer should be flat, like the Gen 1. It will make it harder to hit while solving.

It should be extended past 10 minutes. It seems like it would be easier to keep track of big cubes BLD on a stackmat rather than a stopwatch.


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## Kian (Aug 30, 2009)

Buttons that don't get destroyed so easily. Seems like it could be a simple fix. Wouldn't be exorbitantly expensive like some of the suggestions here.


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## Kuraudo39 (Aug 30, 2009)

Maybe have the timer built into the mat? Like the timer is a little lcd at the top of the mat and beeps when inspection is over. The whole mat has pressure sensitive sensors on it and it'll detect when you drop the cube and when your hands hit the mat. 
----------------
|-----LCD------|
|--Whole mat--|
|---Pressure---|
|-- Sensitive---|
----------------


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## Kiongku (Aug 30, 2009)

This setup will definitely be more expensive I think.. having to run the sensors throughout the whole surface..


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## Bryan (Aug 30, 2009)

Hadley4000 said:


> I see a problem with the timer keeping track of averages. At a lot of competitions, the same person will not use the same timer 5 times in a row. There often times are more cubers than timers, and even with 2 groups, people often will need to share.



I think the bigger issue is that you'd have to have some interface to enter DNF and +2's.


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## anderson26 (Aug 30, 2009)

The timer go longer than 10 minutes to avoid usage of a stopwatch.


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## Cyrok215 (Aug 30, 2009)

I think it would be cool if they had a Wi-Fi connection so you could compare your time to other peoples times!


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## StachuK1992 (Aug 30, 2009)

Cyrok215 said:


> I think it would be cool if they had a Wi-Fi connection so you could compare your time to other peoples times!


yeah. sure. not

Do you have any idea what that would cost?


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## Paul Wagner (Aug 30, 2009)

Cyrok215 said:


> I think it would be cool if they had a Wi-Fi connection so you could compare your time to other peoples times!


What would be the purpose of that?


Kuraudo39 said:


> Maybe have the timer built into the mat? Like the timer is a little lcd at the top of the mat and beeps when inspection is over. The whole mat has pressure sensitive sensors on it and it'll detect when you drop the cube and when your hands hit the mat.
> ----------------
> |-----LCD------|
> |--Whole mat--|
> ...



That's the rubik's timer. And what if you fumble the cube, and it hits the Pressure sensitive mat?

But IMO, we should have some realistic ideas; because I was browsing through some of the ideas, some were ridiculous, some were great. 

For instance, buttons being less prone to break, running on AA batteries instead of coin batteries, also making the timer count to an hour however that would probably interfere with the displays and we shouldn't expect speedstacks to make personal cubing displays because it just isn't necessary, also if the times don't increase over 10 minutes and our speedstacks one does, it might not work. If it would have a larger screen maybe that would be nice. Or if it provided 3x3 scrambles that would be enough. 

But one of my ideas I think would work very well with a program that could connect the stackmat to the computer that was a timer, and maybe someone can write a program that would provide scrambles. But NOT CCT because I find it is a little buggy with the connectivity.


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## Carson (Aug 30, 2009)

Paul Wagner said:


> Cyrok215 said:
> 
> 
> > I think it would be cool if they had a Wi-Fi connection so you could compare your time to other peoples times!
> ...



Yeah, wifi, so you could bring your laptop and hack into everyone's timers... I see that going over well.

Pressure sensitive mat is a bad idea. Some events require having objects laying on the mat. Multiblind for instance, also some people solve magic while it is in contact with the mat, and most people solve master's magic this way. Not to mention the added cost and fragility.


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## Swordsman Kirby (Aug 30, 2009)

Carson said:


> Pressure sensitive mat is a bad idea. Some events require having objects laying on the mat. Multiblind for instance, also some people solve magic while it is in contact with the mat, and most people solve master's magic this way. Not to mention the added cost and fragility.



Furthermore, I've noticed that in Leyan's style, he slams his hands on the timer before the cube hits the mat.


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## guitardude7241 (Aug 30, 2009)

-------------------------------
|88sensor8888888888888sensor |
-----------|8*888**8|---------
888888888|88time888|
888888888|8^8888P88|
888888888 __________

Ignore the 8's.

* = +2
** = DNF
time= display
^ = reset
P = power

Have AA/AAA batteries in the bottom half.


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## edd5190 (Aug 30, 2009)

Kuraudo39 said:


> Maybe have the timer built into the mat? Like the timer is a little lcd at the top of the mat and beeps when inspection is over. The whole mat has pressure sensitive sensors on it and it'll detect when you drop the cube and when your hands hit the mat.
> ----------------
> |-----LCD------|
> |--Whole mat--|
> ...



Say goodbye to portability..



mr.onehanded said:


> Defiantly





Edmund said:


> definately



My eyes!!

As for the timer, I definitely (that's d-e-f-i-n-i-t-e-l-y, people!) want it to be more accurate. I'd always had a hunch that some hundredths were more common than others (and I'm sure that the stackers want that too.) I'm against the idea of starting the timer with buttons because they'd have to make the buttons huge for us to be able to use them. Something that's less sensitive than what we have right now but not too hard to use like a button is what we need. Also, rather than having protectors over the power and reset buttons (which don't really work because the cube's corner can still hit the buttons) maybe we can have the timers require you to press the button twice or hold the button for a set amount of time before it resets/turns off. 

I'd like to see a timer that provides scrambles, but calculating averages is too much. Say you have a DNF or a +2 during an average. You'll need to press a DNF or a +2 button, which would have no use at all except when you're doing averages (I don't see how you'd need any of that when you're just solving casually). Also, what if you accidentally start the timer before you're ready? Won't you also need a 'discard' button? The average function will just put 3 pretty much useless buttons on the timer, which we don't need. If you want to know your averages, figure them out yourself. I just don't see how we can have a timer that gives you your averages without it being very difficult to make. 

I like the idea of the timer also giving optional preinspection if the amount of time given is adjustable. Instead of the timer starting right away when inspection is done like many computer timers do, I'd like to hear a beep that signals for you to put your cube down and hands on the timer, so you can start when you're ready. 

I'm also all for raising the 10-minute limit to 30 minutes, or maybe having the limit be adjustable so that when you're doing big-cubes BLD you can raise the limit, and when you're done lower it back to 10 minutes so that you don't waste battery by accidentally leaving it running for 30 minutes. AA or AAA batteries would be nice too.

That's just my 2 cents.


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## PatrickJameson (Aug 30, 2009)

Kuraudo39 said:


> Maybe have the timer built into the mat? Like the timer is a little lcd at the top of the mat and beeps when inspection is over. The whole mat has pressure sensitive sensors on it and it'll detect when you drop the cube and when your hands hit the mat.
> ----------------
> |-----LCD------|
> |--Whole mat--|
> ...



Welcome to Gen 1 timers.

http://uk.speedstacks.com/store/productsUK/stackmat_use_uk.htm


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## (X) (Aug 30, 2009)

What is wrong with buttons instead of touchpads? Same design just using buttons instead. Then you wouldn't have to lose time because you have to wait for the green light


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## cardsNcubes (Aug 30, 2009)

Well, I just got done reading through most of this thread, and here's a list of ideas that seem to be popular and functional.

• Sturdier (overall, specifically buttons/display)
• Less sensitive touch pads (to avoid .02's)
• Optional inspection (10 & 15 sec. using LCD's to signal.) 
• Optional 'Extended Time' mode (10, 30, 60 mins.)
• USB connection.
• New power source (AA or AAA batteries)

Note: New buttons would be added so you could cycle through the Inspection and ExT modes.


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## Bryan (Aug 30, 2009)

Kiongku said:


> This setup will definitely be more expensive I think.. having to run the sensors throughout the whole surface..



Seems like it would also be more prone to breakage. What would you do in a competition of the cube landed on a "dead" spot? Or if someone has a really light cube? 

And I would think that buttons, with having a mechanical component to them as opposed to the current state, would be much more prone to breakage, especially with high use and people who hit the timers hard.


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## StachuK1992 (Aug 30, 2009)

Idea:
They should come with cords.
One regular from stackmat to USB, and one to mic slot, so they're backwards-compatible with old displays.


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## Ethan Rosen (Aug 30, 2009)

I'd rather have a simple timer, much like the one we have now. The only things I can really think of changing are:
1. Change 10 minute limit to one hour limit
2. The reset or Power buttons shouldn't work when the timer is going
3. You should need to hit the reset button twice before it does anything


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## brunson (Aug 30, 2009)

Tip: If you want an ASCII graphic, put it in "code" tags, that will force it into a fixed width font.

Ex:
----------------
|-----LCD------|
|--Whole mat--|
|---Pressure---|
|-- Sensitive---|
---------------- 
vs.

```
----------------
|------LCD-----|
|--Whole mat--|
|---Pressure---|
|-- Sensitive---|
 ----------------
```
vs.

```
+-------------+
|-----LCD-----|
|--Whole mat--|
|--Pressure---|
|--Sensitive--|
+-------------+
```


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## JBCM627 (Aug 30, 2009)

Bryan said:


> And I would think that buttons, with having a mechanical component to them as opposed to the current state, would be much more prone to breakage, especially with high use and people who hit the timers hard.


You might think, but my spacebar is still ok after 4 years  I'd still strongly support buttons as they might sole more problems than they would create.


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## Bryan (Aug 31, 2009)

JBCM627 said:


> Bryan said:
> 
> 
> > And I would think that buttons, with having a mechanical component to them as opposed to the current state, would be much more prone to breakage, especially with high use and people who hit the timers hard.
> ...



Yes, bu you don't hit your keyboard as hard as some timers are hit. I have a hard time believing Speed Stacks wouldn't have looked into buttons in the first place. I think either buttons are really prone to breakage because of either the force, or a combination of force and hitting them from the side (still from the top, but hitting them off-center).

Hopefully the timer engineers will give us feedback and cost on our choices so that we don't request something and then having timers that cost $50 and have serious flaws that result in them not working after two competitions.


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## StachuK1992 (Aug 31, 2009)

An idea to prevent .02 solves.



```
+---------------------+
|  ##  sensor 2   ##  |
|                     |
|        mat          |
|                     |
|  ##  sensor 1   ##  |
+---------------------+
```
Start timer with both hands on sensor 1.

Stop timer with both hands on sensor 2.


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## Edmund (Aug 31, 2009)

Stachuk1992 said:


> An idea to prevent .02 solves.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I think it'd be better starting with sensor 2.


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## qqwref (Aug 31, 2009)

Laptop-keyboard type buttons would be cool. They are hard to break (I've hit my keyboard pretty hard while playing rhythm games and I've never broken a key), cheap, and easy to take apart, clean, and replace, and their sensitivity is constant over time. They aren't TOO sensitive, though - you do have to apply a small amount of force to activate them, so you probably would decrease the frequency of people accidentally stopping the timer by placing their hands/arms on it.


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## JTW2007 (Aug 31, 2009)

I liked the old stackmat because you couldn't drop the cube on the timer, causing it to turn. This doesn't need to be overthought. I would just vote for a simple timer more resembling the old stackmats, that solves the problem of extra turns and has better integration with the displays.


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## Faz (Aug 31, 2009)

Stachuk1992 said:


> An idea to prevent .02 solves.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



People would fail so bad on that.

OMG its not stopping!!!
Oh wait, I have to do the other sensor.


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## StachuK1992 (Aug 31, 2009)

fazrulz said:


> Stachuk1992 said:
> 
> 
> > An idea to prevent .02 solves.
> ...


they'd get used to it.

and if we went from 2 to 1, they'd put their arms accidnetally on 1 after starting :/


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## Shadow storm (Aug 31, 2009)

Maybe an option that you would have to put one hand on one side of the timer while you are cubing onehanded?


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## Stefan (Aug 31, 2009)

I suggest a small minimalistic one that everyone can afford. I can buy a stopwatch for $3.66 including shipping (or maybe 2.82), it's ridiculous that SpeedStacks wants $64.31 for its timer (€39 + €6 shipping) . Being small would also be nice because we could more easily take it with us everywhere.


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## MichaelErskine (Aug 31, 2009)

I have a few Stackmat timers and I think they're perfect for a mass-produced product.

I have a version that came with shielded power and reset buttons and that's a pretty good improvement to stop accidental button presses (although you can mod your own by glueing on appropriately-sized plastic rings).

I hadn't noticed the bias in the distribution of the hundredths, but then I haven't dealt with so many results, so if there's an improvement in accuracy possible then that would be very good indeed.

USB or Bluetooth interface? Way, way, way expensive! Plus useless for competition unless we need a PC to be wired to every competitor table!

For home use I've investigated a simple hack for non-competition timers where the current readout of the LCD is made available on a PC via a cheap Arduino interface but this still works out more costly than a competition timer! Still no access to the memory of the timer either!

Moreover, if you have a PC available then just use the PC as a timer!


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## TEGTaylor (Aug 31, 2009)

StefanPochmann said:


> it's ridiculous that SpeedStacks wants $64.31 for its timer (€39 + €6 shipping) . Being small would also be nice because we could more easily take it with us everywhere.



I agree with this, it should be low cost and small. In the past portability didn't really mater much, you cant cup stack in the car, so regardless of the buttons it should be small and very lightweight


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## qqwref (Sep 3, 2009)

Well, Stefan, we can't ever expect a good timer to get anywhere near the cost of a crummy stopwatch (for competition timers, we do need a mat, two buttons or touch sensors, and some LEDs) although I do agree that $60 is a bit much for an essential tool. I think that making the mat smaller (it doesn't need to be bigger than half a sheet of newspaper, really, except for maybe magic events) would take off a lot of the cost - not only would you save on the mat itself, but the whole thing would fit in a much smaller bag and would thus cost far less to ship. The timer itself should be very cheap, though... I guess <$10 should be possible, but I don't know for sure.

Of course, you'd also save even more money by having the whole thing produced in and shipped out of China with no middleman... but that would mean cutting out SpeedStacks entirely and I'm not sure if that would be a good decision.


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## mr.onehanded (Sep 3, 2009)

edd5190 said:


> Kuraudo39 said:
> 
> 
> > Maybe have the timer built into the mat? Like the timer is a little lcd at the top of the mat and beeps when inspection is over. The whole mat has pressure sensitive sensors on it and it'll detect when you drop the cube and when your hands hit the mat.
> ...



Well this is embarrassing. I blame spell check.


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## Pitzu (Apr 2, 2010)

MichaelErskine said:


> USB or Bluetooth interface? Way, way, way expensive! Plus useless for competition unless we need a PC to be wired to every competitor table!
> 
> For home use I've investigated a simple hack for non-competition timers where the current readout of the LCD is made available on a PC via a cheap Arduino interface but this still works out more costly than a competition timer! Still no access to the memory of the timer either!
> 
> Moreover, if you have a PC available then just use the PC as a timer!



Hi Everybody! Any news on this?!
I think the problem is that competition display is extremely expensive and when we organize a competition we always have few displays however we have enough timers.
It would be a good way to have laptops as displays.


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## Dfgged (Apr 2, 2010)

Pitzu said:


> MichaelErskine said:
> 
> 
> > USB or Bluetooth interface? Way, way, way expensive! Plus useless for competition unless we need a PC to be wired to every competitor table!
> ...


Why did you dig up a year old thread? You should have just posted a new one


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## Mike Hughey (Apr 2, 2010)

Dfgged said:


> Why did you dig up a year old thread? You should have just posted a new one



I disagree completely. This is an example of a very good bump. Posting a new thread would be a much worse way to handle this, since the context would be lost. This way, everyone can see the context and remember it. And the question was a good one. (Unfortunately, I don't have an answer.)

And also, it's only a half-year-old thread, not a year old.


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## Deleted member 2864 (Apr 2, 2010)

It's an honest bump. I kinda want some news on this too.


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## JBCM627 (Apr 2, 2010)

Tyson said:


> We didn't get the paperwork in time. They'll have to reconsider for 2011.


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## iSpinz (Apr 2, 2010)

qqwref said:


> Of course, you'd also save even more money by having the whole thing produced in and shipped out of China with no middleman... but that would mean cutting out SpeedStacks entirely and I'm not sure if that would be a good decision.


I was thinking about that. It seems like a good idea, the first part at least.


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## lorki3 (Apr 2, 2010)

put the power and reset button on the front of the timer so you can't touch it by accidant


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## MichaelErskine (Apr 2, 2010)

Pitzu said:


> Hi Everybody! Any news on this?!
> I think the problem is that competition display is extremely expensive and when we organize a competition we always have few displays however we have enough timers.
> It would be a good way to have laptops as displays.



I've done no work on this - too busy. Competition displays are £85 here in the UK. A competition timer is £22.00. That's the cost of about 3-4 hrs of engineers' design time at work!

BTW: the thread bump is entirely appropriate IMHO


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## jms_gears1 (Apr 2, 2010)

Kuraudo39 said:


> Maybe have the timer built into the mat? Like the timer is a little lcd at the top of the mat and beeps when inspection is over. The whole mat has pressure sensitive sensors on it and it'll detect when you drop the cube and when your hands hit the mat.
> ----------------
> |-----LCD------|
> |--Whole mat--|
> ...



this has been done already actually.
Its a rubiks brand timer if i remember right. 
Theres a reason why its not used in comps lol.


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## coinman (Apr 3, 2010)

iPhone version of stackmat timer! www.compactgames.eu


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## cincyaviation (Apr 3, 2010)

coinman said:


> iPhone version of stackmat timer! www.compactgames.eu



thats been around for a while


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## cuberkid10 (Apr 6, 2010)

Make some sort of protection for the "Power" and "reset" buttons. I always hit those with my cube when I finish a solve and the timer turns off. :/


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## idpapro (Apr 6, 2010)

Bryan said:


> mazei said:
> 
> 
> > And perhaps a way to remove DNS's??
> ...



The timers at competitions already have these (at least comps in California)


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## iChanZer0 (Apr 6, 2010)

DNF and +2 buttons


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## jms_gears1 (Apr 6, 2010)

iChanZer0 said:


> DNF and +2 buttons


if the judge is to stupid to write DNF or add two seconds to the time they shouldnt be judging.


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## riffz (Apr 7, 2010)

cuberkid10 said:


> Make some sort of protection for the "Power" and "reset" buttons. I always hit those with my cube when I finish a solve and the timer turns off. :/



I've never had this happen to me.


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## Novriil (Apr 7, 2010)

riffz said:


> cuberkid10 said:
> 
> 
> > Make some sort of protection for the "Power" and "reset" buttons. I always hit those with my cube when I finish a solve and the timer turns off. :/
> ...



Really?

I get this many times every week. And on competitions they are really annoying. 

And also I don't hit the buttons but I hit near them and that causes them to reset. For example on Helsinki Open I closed the timer and it reseted but I'm completely sure that I didn't hit the button.. I just used too much force I think and I pressed to the end of the touch-panel so the button was only few cm away. But I'm sure that I didn't press it down.


----------

