# Competitions limited spots problem



## otcami23 (Aug 31, 2022)

I have been cubing since the pandemic, and i have been waiting to be able to enter a competition, but I could never enter one because of two reasons. First, the amount of competitions that there were because of the pandemic, although now it has gone back to normal, and secondly, the limit amount of competitors that can enter a competition.

Since late last year i have wanted to enter a competition but the first rime i tried to enter a competition, i got word of it too late and all the spots were taken, and today i tried registering into another comp, just 5 minutes after from when the inscriptions opened and all the spots were already taken, in just 5 minutes.

This is a huge problem for new competitors, like me, that want to compete, but because of this happening, because im not fast enough, i cant guarantee myself a spot in the competition. Now you may be thinking "Tough luck" or "You should have registered faster" or something like that, but if this keeps happening, it might be that i never get to compete.

So what I'm proposing to do is like leave the same amount of competitors that can enter a competition, but leave some spots for first-timers, so that everyone has a chance to compete. For example, in a competition with 45 spots, make 5 spots for the first-timers and 40 for the rest of the competitors, and by the end of the inscription time, if some of the first-timers' spots are free, the x amount of free spots are for the first x competitors in the waiting list.

I know i might sound biased here, because i have never competed before but I think its a good idea so that no-one comes out without a chance to be able to compete, even though they are not in time to get a spot in a competition. 

Let me know what do you guys think about this idea or proposal!


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## LBr (Aug 31, 2022)

otcami23 said:


> I have been cubing since the pandemic, and i have been waiting to be able to enter a competition, but I could never enter one because of two reasons. First, the amount of competitions that there were because of the pandemic, although now it has gone back to normal, and secondly, the limit amount of competitors that can enter a competition.
> 
> Since late last year i have wanted to enter a competition but the first rime i tried to enter a competition, i got word of it too late and all the spots were taken, and today i tried registering into another comp, just 5 minutes after from when the inscriptions opened and all the spots were already taken, in just 5 minutes.
> 
> ...


I’m not sure that this would be effective, here’s why:

I’m gonna reference some examples from where I live, as a think this is important.

At my last competition, about 230 competitors signed up, and about half were first timers. This is unusual, but I think that the ratio of first timers is higher that that. So introducing a ratio like that may even be limiting to first timers, but more importantly is misrepresenting certain parts of the world, which generally would cause a headache for the wca if they would have to work out specific ratios for certain competitions in particular countries.

But also, where I live. The first 3 comps post pandemic filled up like mad, but with the recent ones it fills up way way slower, to the point when registration opens and I consider the option of attending for even a week or 2 before attending, and bear in mind I live in a country where the cubing scene has historically been quite small but it has recently boomed


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## OreKehStrah (Aug 31, 2022)

The simple solution is to just check the wca site every so often. If a new comp shows up close enough, learn when registration opens and be ready. All the people that get are doing this and registering as soon as a comp opens. Tons of people wanna compete so you have to be ready as soon as it opens. When I registered for a comp recently, it filled in 2 minutes.


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## Swagrid (Sep 1, 2022)

As OreKehStrah said, if you prepare for a comp and wait for reg to open you can usually get in. Usually, as more and more comps are run, registration speed slows. At the start, the UK was mental with registration. Every comp, the WCA site crashed, and we had a comp fill in less than 120 seconds. Some time has passed since then and now not every comp fills and the ones that do take multiple days. The heat will cool off.


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## DGCubes (Sep 1, 2022)

I wholeheartedly agree! As someone who's been on the organizing end of competitions that have filled up in minutes, the amount of emails I get that start with "my child loves cubing and this would be their first competition" and result in me saying "sorry, there's nothing I can do" is heartbreaking. This is one of the biggest problems in cubing today - at least in my part of the world. While I don't think the solution would be so straightforward in practice (there will still be lots of first-timers who miss out due to high demand and low competitor limits), your proposal is certainly on the right track.

I've imagined it a bit differently than your proposal; here's an example of my idea: Say there's a 100-competitor limit. The first 90 spots go to the first 90 people to register, regardless of whether they're first-timers or not. The next 10 spots go to the next 10 first-timers to register. This way, you're not limiting the number of first-timers who can compete, but you're still giving them a bit of an edge. I think the exact numbers should be left up to the organizers and delegates (and not required by the WCA), but the WCA could have written suggestions on this.

It's great hearing the perspective of a newer cuber on this too - whether us oldies like it or not, it does take practice to be able to sign up quickly for competitions, and newer cubers are often overwhelmed by the process. For now though, please don't be discouraged and keep trying! I'm happy to hear you haven't given up despite the registration difficulties you've faced - but I'm sure plenty of people unfortunately do give up on their first attempts, and we need to try our best to stop that from happening.


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## CornerTwisted (Sep 1, 2022)

DGCubes said:


> "my child loves cubing and this would be their first competition" and result in me saying "sorry, there's nothing I can do" is heartbreaking.


I organised Cashew Cubing and we even got at least 20 emails, big area with little comps, and we even got some emails the DAY OF the competition.


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## Thom S. (Sep 1, 2022)

Not sure how you would enfore that.


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## qwr (Sep 1, 2022)

Thom S. said:


> Not sure how you would enfore that.


Pretty simple. Registration is done on the WCA site, so just query people's WCA profiles.


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## the_chad (Sep 1, 2022)

DGCubes said:


> Say there's a 100-competitor limit. The first 90 spots go to the first 90 people to register, regardless of whether they're first-timers or not. The next 10 spots go to the next 10 first-timers to register. This way, you're not limiting the number of first-timers who can compete, but you're still giving them a bit of an edge.




I am pretty sure this would go against WCA Mission. _Our mission is to have more competitions in more countries with more people and more fun, under fair and equal conditions._

Everyone has the same chances of registering and that's it. You can't treat some better in special way just because they are newcomers. Regulars competitors also struggle to register in time.


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## Thom S. (Sep 1, 2022)

qwr said:


> Pretty simple. Registration is done on the WCA site, so just query people's WCA profiles.


I thought you get your WCA Profile _when_ you enter your first competition.
Either way, whst you said makes it even more easy to abuse.


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## turtwig (Sep 1, 2022)

Thom S. said:


> Either way, whst you said makes it even more easy to abuse.


I don’t really see how you could abuse it. If you want your comp results to go to your WCA profile, surely you would have to be truthful about who you were when you registered? I suppose if you were OK with a new WCA profile (presumably with a fake name so they wouldn’t find out) in order to get the newcomer spot, it would work, but I don’t think most people would do that.


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## DGCubes (Sep 1, 2022)

the_chad said:


> I am pretty sure this would go against WCA Mission. _Our mission is to have more competitions in more countries with more people and more fun, under fair and equal conditions._
> 
> Everyone has the same chances of registering and that's it. You can't treat some better in special way just because they are newcomers. Regulars competitors also struggle to register in time.


I'm gonna push back on this a bit. I've been to 60 competitions and I can somewhat consistently be one of the first people to register (within the first 5 or so, according to delegates). I'm very familiar with the process after doing it so many times, and I know where I can save time (having my credit card info copied onto my clipboard, having my events pre-selected, not leaving comments, etc.). Newcomers are simply less likely to know this because of their lack of experience. Regular competitors may struggle to register in time, but they struggle significantly less than newcomers.

Regarding "fair and equal conditions":
In this situation, I would argue that equal conditions are not fair, and fair conditions are not equal. If fairness is giving every person the same chance of competing, we must understand that while there is no physical barrier in place that stops newcomers from signing up quickly, their lack of experience _is a real barrier_ that lowers their chances in practice.

Here's some data to support that:** At the last competition I organized (Princeton Spring 2022) the first 30 people to register had previously competed - the 31st registrant was the first newcomer. In total, 8 newcomers made it into the top 61 people who were allowed to compete. The competition had a waitlist of 153 people, 98 of whom were first-timers. That is, about 64% of the waitlist is made up of new competitors, compared to a mere 13% of the accepted registrations. The newcomers who know how to register quickly are the exception, not the rule. About half of the people who registered were newcomers, but they made up less than a seventh of actual competitors.

While the current set-up may be equal, the outcome is not. The numbers here show that this is a problem, at least in my area. To match the WCA mission better, we should allow organizers to give newcomers a slight advantage in registration. (Note: My data only shows that the problem is a problem, but does not prove that my solution is the only solution. Maybe there's another way mitigate the issue, like having a practice registration page on the WCA website.)

Side note, this debate draws some interesting political parallels. Some people push for equal rules, while others push for equal outcomes. Given that, it's obvious that my take will be controversial, but I do believe it's the best way to grow the cubing community further - with more people and more fun.

** Disclaimer: ALL the numbers in that paragraph ignore the 12 people who were staff, delegates, organizers, or club members, as they had an implicit advantage by not being required to pay, which makes their registrations faster. Including them would unfairly swing the numbers farther towards my point.


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## turtwig (Sep 1, 2022)

If we're worried that competitions fill up in a matter of minutes and newcomers literally can't fill in their registration information in time, I think a better solution would be to have a set amount of time (1 day for example), where people can sign up; if the number of registrants exceeds the limit within this time, a lottery is used to choose competitors (or if it doesn't fill up, the remaining spots are first come first serve). That way, newcomers won't be explicitly be given spots but veteran competitors won't have the advantages that DGCubes mentioned. It would also be better for all competitors in case registration starts if they're in a position where they cannot sign up (at work, school, etc., or if they're just having technical problems with their computer) since it's much more likely they will have time at some point in the day to sign up (or whatever other time frame is used, although I think a day is a good length).

EDIT: Dunno if there'd be problems with registering multiple times to give yourself multiple lottery tickets so to speak, but I'm sure there are reasonable ways to solve these types of technical problems.


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## OreKehStrah (Sep 1, 2022)

DGCubes said:


> I'm gonna push back on this a bit. I've been to 60 competitions and I can somewhat consistently be one of the first people to register (within the first 5 or so, according to delegates). I'm very familiar with the process after doing it so many times, and I know where I can save time (having my credit card info copied onto my clipboard, having my events pre-selected, not leaving comments, etc.). Newcomers are simply less likely to know this because of their lack of experience. Regular competitors may struggle to register in time, but they struggle significantly less than newcomers.
> 
> Regarding "fair and equal conditions":
> In this situation, I would argue that equal conditions are not fair, and fair conditions are not equal. If fairness is giving every person the same chance of competing, we must understand that while there is no physical barrier in place that stops newcomers from signing up quickly, their lack of experience _is a real barrier_ that lowers their chances in practice.
> ...


New people are at a disadvantage for not being familiar with the process, but I’m not sure that having guaranteed spots for new people is the solution. I don’t see why there can’t be more resources to explain to people what the registration process is like, what info to prepare ahead of time, etc so there just isn’t a knowledge barrier in the first place. Also improving the site so it doesn’t crash when everybody reloads the page at once would help. 

Taking a 180, suppose you let there be a fixed amount of spots for new competitors. If such a thing were allowed, why not go even further and have comps exclusively for first time solvers? This could be a solution for smaller comps to split it into comp part A and B for example. Of course new solvers could register for normal comps at well, but having comps specifically for new solvers could help alleviate some of the issues.


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## Mike Hughey (Sep 1, 2022)

I really rather like the lottery idea. If people are concerned that it would allow too many people who don't care as much, it might be reasonable to limit it to one hour instead of a full day. That way you have to be pretty committed to wanting to go and plan ahead, but if you're at a disadvantage due to inexperience or poor internet, you can still have as good a chance as anyone else to get in.

For the most recent big competition I went to, I was very prepared. I knew exactly what to do and started registering the instant it opened. But because I had to pick up my daughter at her dance class at that moment, I had to bring my laptop and hook through my (pretty slow) hotspot to sign up (no way I would be able to type fast enough on my phone - I'm old and too slow at texting), while I made my daughter wait until after I registered before taking her home. Doing that, I was registrant number 100 out of 100, so I got in. But it wasn't easy!


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## 2020LONG05 (Sep 5, 2022)

Respectfully, there are a lot of newcomers that sign up just as fast as returning competitors. Leaving a section for them will not help because it just has the same problem. Getting on a waitlist early is actually productive. People drop all the time. 

A comp for only first time competitors would not run smoothly at all. It is necessary that there are a larger portion of experienced people there.

Twin comps are also becoming more popular to serve more people, and more organizers are popping up.


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