# Really tough challenge for 3x3x3



## AvGalen (Mar 10, 2009)

For those of you that are bored with solving the 3x3x3, try this challenge:

1. scramble with only r u f turns
2. solve with only r u f turns

I almost gave up the first time I tried, but got it after 90 minutes. The second time it only took 30 minutes 

Using multiple cubes, pen and paper or any other tool is allowed. If anyone knows a computer-program that does this, please let me know

If this challenge is to hard, try scrambling/solving with only r u turns first

BIG EDIT
Just to be extra clear: 

r u f are double-layer turns and are not the same as R U F
r u f are also not the same as L D B because there is an extra cube rotation involved
You are allowed to do r r r so naturally r2 and r' (and u2 u' f2 f') are allowed as well
You are NOT allowed to use cube rotations (otherwise you would only need r OR u OR f)
And for those that cannot do this challenge, just try to make it easier until you can do it. Here are some variations ordered from tough to easy (please, pay attention to the casing):
only r u turns are allowed
only r u F turns are allowed
only r U turns are allowed
only r U F turns are allowed


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## miniGOINGS (Mar 10, 2009)

AvGalen said:


> For those of you that are bored with solving the 3x3x3, try this challenge:
> 
> 1. scramble with only r u f turns
> 2. solve with only r u f turns
> ...



wow, you automatically start with a petrus block  ya for me


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## puzzlemaster (Mar 10, 2009)

wait arnaud.. do you mean R U F? i'm not doubting your intelligence... i'm just not sure if you might mean Rw. sorry for being disrespectful


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## JustinJ (Mar 10, 2009)

miniGOINGS said:


> AvGalen said:
> 
> 
> > For those of you that are bored with solving the 3x3x3, try this challenge:
> ...



No, he means you take the outer layer AND the middle slice with it.

I've tried this with only r and u, it surprised me how scrambled it got.


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## tim (Mar 10, 2009)

Yeah, that's tough. After 5 minutes i still don't have any idea how to solve it .


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## Odin (Mar 10, 2009)

Can you use inverts?


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## tim (Mar 10, 2009)

Odin said:


> Can you use inverts?



Inverts of what? Of the scramble? That would be stupid.


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## bamman1108 (Mar 10, 2009)

can you use y rotations?


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## Odin (Mar 10, 2009)

tim said:


> Odin said:
> 
> 
> > Can you use inverts?
> ...



Uhhh inverts such as r' u' f'....


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## tim (Mar 10, 2009)

Odin said:


> tim said:
> 
> 
> > Odin said:
> ...



Uhm, have you ever thought about your question? Try to solve the scramble u without using u'.


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## Gparker (Mar 10, 2009)

ok i got ex-cross, then i just messed it up


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## JLarsen (Mar 10, 2009)

Did it wrong, redoing*

Yeah, not doing this, I see where this is headed.


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## watermelon (Mar 10, 2009)

AvGalen said:


> If anyone knows a computer-program that does this, please let me know.



KSolve could be of assistance.


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## pjk (Mar 10, 2009)

It is funny that you bring this up... I was trying this just the other day. It is much harder than you'd expect. I'm yet to be able to do it, although I haven't spent a lot of time on it.


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## EmersonHerrmann (Mar 10, 2009)

Gave up after 2 minutes


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## bamman1108 (Mar 10, 2009)

I didn't have much trouble with this challenge. Why is everyone stumped? I've done it twice within 15 minutes.


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## JLarsen (Mar 10, 2009)

bamman1108 said:


> I didn't have much trouble with this challenge. Why is everyone stumped? I've done it twice within 15 minutes.



I would bet my life you're not doing it right. I tried this at first as just RUF and I got 27 first try. Sadly that's not what it is. This is soooo freakin hard,


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## bamman1108 (Mar 10, 2009)

Imagine it as only using L B and D and it is soo much easier.


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## not_kevin (Mar 10, 2009)

bamman1108 said:


> Imagine it as only using L B and D and it is soo much easier.



The issue, 'tho, is it's not quite. Instead of L, it's actually L(x). So, no, it's not.


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## Sa967St (Mar 10, 2009)

bamman1108 said:


> Imagine it as only using L B and D and it is soo much easier.


 You're not doing it right then (assuming cube rotations are not allowed). You're doing a cube rotation after every move since L is Rw(x), B is Fw(z), and D is Uw(y).


miniGOINGS said:


> wow, you automatically start with a petrus block


 no you don't, only the DBL corner remains solved.


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## mcciff2112 (Mar 10, 2009)

tim said:


> Odin said:
> 
> 
> > tim said:
> ...



u3?


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## miniGOINGS (Mar 10, 2009)

hahah i figured out a way to do CLL with only R U and F turns!!!


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## byu (Mar 10, 2009)

can you do it with r u and f turns though?


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## qqwref (Mar 10, 2009)

I've tried solving <r,u> before, which seems to be as hard as this (maybe even harder). I can't think of any way to do <r,u,f> other than to solve the whole thing with a commutator and huge amounts of setup moves (which I don't care to do XD)

Here's a 3-cycle of corner-edge pairs:r u r' u' r' f r2 u' r' u' r u r' f' u.


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## *LukeMayn* (Mar 10, 2009)

ok
My first go I got 6:47.33
I'll try get sub 5

EDIT: next solve was 56.56 
It's really easy once you know how to do it

EDIT 2: 47.80
gotta get sub 30

EDIT 3: 41.16

EDIT 4: yay I got sub 30
26.11


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## qqwref (Mar 10, 2009)

Luke.... you're dumb, and you're doing <R,U,F>. Arnaud's talking about where you can only do double-layer turns....

<R,U,F> is seriously easy, anyone fast should be able to get sub-30 without even trying.


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## *LukeMayn* (Mar 10, 2009)

qqwref said:


> Luke.... you're dumb, and you're doing <R,U,F>. Arnaud's talking about where you can only do double-layer turns....
> 
> <R,U,F> is seriously easy, anyone fast should be able to get sub-30 without even trying.



ah lol, I didn't realize that xD
And a little politeness would be appreciated >.>


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## qqwref (Mar 10, 2009)

Sorry, but seriously, READ THE THREAD! Something like five other people have made the EXACT same mistake already, and people have told them exactly what they are doing wrong.

Besides - if Arnaud (someone who is clearly very experienced cubing-wise, given his FMC skillz and number of posts) thinks this challenge is "really tough", you're not going to be solving it in under 30 seconds within a few tries, no matter who you are. That alone should tell you you're not doing it right.


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## *LukeMayn* (Mar 10, 2009)

qqwref said:


> Sorry, but seriously, READ THE THREAD! Something like five other people have made the EXACT same mistake already, and people have told them exactly what they are doing wrong.
> 
> Besides - if Arnaud (someone who is clearly very experienced cubing-wise, given his FMC skillz and number of posts) thinks this challenge is "really tough", you're not going to be solving it in under 30 seconds within a few tries, no matter who you are. That alone should tell you you're not doing it right.



For the last part I was think "wtf how couldn't he do this"

Sorry about not reading through all the mistakes >.<


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## Dene (Mar 10, 2009)

I give up after like 1 min >.< . WAY too hard. I got 3 edges of the cross.


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## Stefan (Mar 10, 2009)

I can solve the corners. Does that count?


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## Neroflux (Mar 10, 2009)

i do cross and 2 corners ;D.


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## AvGalen (Mar 10, 2009)

StefanPochmann said:


> I can solve the corners. Does that count?


It counts as 8 out of 26 pieces solved to me. Keep going Stefan, you will get it

I will also change the start post because the amount of confusion about such a simple assignment is astounding. I would think that people that are going to try a "really tough" challenge would at least know about notation.

qqref (Michael) is almost right about the way I solved this:


Spoiler



long-repetitive cycles (not commutators) and setup-moves


 
I will look into ksolve tonight at home


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## d4m4s74 (Mar 10, 2009)

got it in 10 minutes

but It was kinda lucky


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## AvGalen (Mar 10, 2009)

d4m4s74 said:


> got it in 10 minutes
> 
> but It was kinda lucky


Uhm, unless you get the equivalent of a last layer skip you won't solve this challenge "kinda lucky"

For everyone that got it, could you leave a clue how you did it? And a clue should go between


Spoiler



-tags


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## JLarsen (Mar 10, 2009)

I got as far as a 2x2x2 block, and then I was done. As in...not done =D


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## tim (Mar 10, 2009)

mcciff2112 said:


> tim said:
> 
> 
> > Odin said:
> ...



Right, that was my point...


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## AvGalen (Mar 10, 2009)

Sn3kyPandaMan said:


> I got as far as a 2x2x2 block, and then I was done. As in...not done =D


You are a wise man 
and getting a 2x2x2 block is quite impressive already


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## Ton (Mar 10, 2009)

This is the puzzle that goes with this problem see fused 3x3x3 http://www.speedcubing.com/ton/fused.htm

BTW if you need more challenging fused puzzles your should try a fused 4x4 

I also have a fused 5x5 , I can not think about a fused 6x6 or 7x7


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## Stefan (Mar 10, 2009)

Ton said:


> This is the puzzle that goes with this problem see fused 3x3x3 http://www.speedcubing.com/ton/fused.htm


Nope, not at all.


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## AvGalen (Mar 10, 2009)

StefanPochmann said:


> Ton said:
> 
> 
> > This is the puzzle that goes with this problem see fused 3x3x3 http://www.speedcubing.com/ton/fused.htm
> ...


Wow, even Ton doesn't understand the challenge.

My next really tough challenge will be......to explain what the challenge is

I am still waiting for someone to post a real method


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## Stefan (Mar 10, 2009)

Are cube rotations around the DBL-UFR axis allowed?


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## Ville Seppänen (Mar 10, 2009)

Well, I solved it after maybe 20 minutes. I first solved corners, then somehow solved centers, then I used a 3-cycle alg for edges. It was annoying to flip 2 edges.


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## somerandomkidmike (Mar 10, 2009)

I am excited to try this. I think I'll bring my cube to school (it's not like that's any different from other days).


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## AvGalen (Mar 10, 2009)

StefanPochmann said:


> Are cube rotations around the DBL-UFR axis allowed?


Only if you change the challenge to "r moves only" 
Seriously, that would only change the perspective, not the challenge so I don't see any reason why not


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## Mike Hughey (Mar 10, 2009)

AvGalen said:


> Sn3kyPandaMan said:
> 
> 
> > I got as far as a 2x2x2 block, and then I was done. As in...not done =D
> ...



I got that far too (with the 2x2x2 block opposite the fixed corner), and even got the block in the right place relative to the fixed corner, in six and a half minutes. And I even got lucky and had another C/E pair attached to the 2x2x2 block. But after playing with that, I decided it's probably not the way to solve it and gave up, for now at least. (Obviously it's not possible to keep the 2x2x2 block together while solving the rest of it.)

This seems particularly tough to me since I almost never do wide turns when speedcubing - I'm almost completely unfamiliar with how wide turns work, so it's all very new to me.


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## qqwref (Mar 10, 2009)

AvGalen said:


> My next really tough challenge will be......to explain what the challenge is



I was going to say... the toughest challenge anyone has faced in this thread is the challenge of trying to get people to understand what you are talking about!

PS: I managed to solve the corners (and centers too with a bit of prodding). Also got a 2x2x2 block around DBL (in a separate solve), not that that's at all helpful.

PPS: I found a TEN-edge-flipper! (r' f r f' u r u' r')*lots [I think it's 8 reps but not sure]


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## Tetris Cube (Mar 10, 2009)

I'm not quite sure I understand this. 

It's like an R U F solve of a fused cube, but double layer turns only? In that case, this is extremely difficult... How would you approach this? R U F solves aren't very hard, but r u f is insane.


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## d4m4s74 (Mar 10, 2009)

AvGalen said:


> d4m4s74 said:
> 
> 
> > got it in 10 minutes
> ...





Spoiler



with kinda lucky I mean one edge pair was already solved when putting in the RB edge (kinda like an X cross)

I only use R and U for OLL and I had a Y perm for the pll which I do with just R, F and U

so actually it was like a normal solve

I'm trying it again right now, got to the PLL in about one minute and now I'm stuck with an A perm (the alg I know uses B2)

edit, I redid the OLL and got a perm I could do with an Y perm and a 3 edge cycle (Thank you for the 2gen alg arnaud)

another edit, I misread your first post and thought it said R U F instead of r u f

I'll retry


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## AvGalen (Mar 10, 2009)

qqwref said:


> AvGalen said:
> 
> 
> > My next really tough challenge will be......to explain what the challenge is
> ...



That "* lots" sounds like my solution 

And yes Tetris Cube, this challenge is "insane". That is why I only expect some people in the world to be able to do this. Ville, qqref, StefanPochmann and Mike are some of them. I can think of about 10 others on this forum. The rest "doesn't stand a chance" OR will learn a lot by doing this (or the simpler) challenges


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## MTGjumper (Mar 10, 2009)

Quick question: can all of the possible permutations of the cube be reached this way? (I'm leaning towards yes...)

Edit: Corners done...


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## Stefan (Mar 10, 2009)

MTGjumper said:


> Quick question: can all of the possible permutations of the cube be reached this way? (I'm leaning towards yes...)


No.

And I just remembered a bit more about an earlier time where we did this. Only very vaguely, though.


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## MTGjumper (Mar 10, 2009)

So, what percentage of permutations can be reached?


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## deco122392 (Mar 10, 2009)

wow after 5 min of evil hellish tourtcher i now have the corners done. altho now im just fallowing a trend mindlessly and i really have no idea how i will continue from here
ok now i think i have a solid way of finishing the corners using a decent amount of thinking. (wooo centers just finished themselves luck me(= ) ok finish corners on D simple, i do them in this order 

DBL:done
DLF: using ruf 
DBR and DRF: using ur

then i look at the orientation and permutation of the ll corners and use the Y perm (feels simple and is decently affective.) and combinations of sune to do the oll soooooo i permute first.
and here are som helpfull litte algs ive used 

(haha this a very thought provoking chalange.)

btw the sune is double turn and so is the y perm

edit: and this version of the j perm(r u2 r' u' r u2 f r' f' r) to swap the UBR and URF corners (=


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## Stefan (Mar 10, 2009)

MTGjumper said:


> So, what percentage of permutations can be reached?


Explain my earlier "no", then I might answer this one (though you might then be able to answer it yourself).

Oh and the earlier time I mentioned, I think the task was to solve a keychain 3x3x3 by pulling on the keychain. That's equivalent to the puzzle here. I think I made up a complete method back then, but I can't find it anymore. I believe it was on the yahoo group, maybe the twistypuzzles forum. Anyone else remember that and can find it?


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## Stefan (Mar 10, 2009)

Whoa... found it, or rather "them". The steps:

Searching "keychain equivalent cube" in the yahoo group finds:
http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/speedsolvingrubikscube/message/38029
That's a thread I started about <u,r,f> in 2007. I might read it again.

Then I checked out my own reply:
http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/speedsolvingrubikscube/message/38043

Contains a link to the earlier discussion with the keychain:
http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/speedsolvingrubikscube/message/15595
Wow, 2005. Back then I still used smileys.

In that thread there's this message of Jaap:
http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/speedsolvingrubikscube/message/15604
Which points back again to an even earlier discussion in 2003:
http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/speedsolvingrubikscube/message/4419

Looks like we have this puzzle every odd year.


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## Robert-Y (Mar 10, 2009)

Erm I've found an alg to orient 4 edges .... : Do (r u') 126 times
(Might be wrong, but that's what I got)


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## AvGalen (Mar 10, 2009)

StefanPochmann said:


> MTGjumper said:
> 
> 
> > Quick question: can all of the possible permutations of the cube be reached this way? (I'm leaning towards yes...)
> ...



I was also wondering if all possible permutations could be reached. I didn't see why not at first, but if you try this challenge you will probably find out


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## Lord Voldemort (Mar 10, 2009)

AvGalen said:


> That "* lots" sounds like my solution
> 
> And yes Tetris Cube, this challenge is "insane". That is why I only expect some people in the world to be able to do this. Ville, qqref, StefanPochmann and Mike are some of them. I can think of about 10 others on this forum. The rest "doesn't stand a chance" OR will learn a lot by doing this (or the simpler) challenges



That really motivated my to try to find a solution.
I'll see, perhaps I may be able to solve it. I doubt it though.


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## AvGalen (Mar 10, 2009)

Robert-Y said:


> Erm I've found an alg to orient 4 edges .... : Do (r u') 126 times
> (Might be wrong, but that's what I got)



You are not wrong, but (r u')*63 is more interesting


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## Robert-Y (Mar 10, 2009)

If you did U on a solved cube, would it be possible to solve it using only r, u, and f moves?


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## byu (Mar 10, 2009)

I just tried something much easier, I did a solve with r u R and U. Very easy, I build up a 2x2x3 block intuitively, then solve it like petrus, except I use

r' R U r' R U r' R U2 r R' U r R' U r R' U2

and

r' R U r R' U2 r' R U r R'

to flip edges instead of the normal petrus way.


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## cheiney (Mar 10, 2009)

I have the cross done with one slot finished, but I'm kind of afraid to do anything else without messing up everything I just did. How did you end up solving it in the end? It seems like LL would be near impossible to solve with normal OLL and PLL.


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## AvGalen (Mar 10, 2009)

cheiney said:


> I have the cross done with one slot finished, but I'm kind of afraid to do anything else without messing up everything I just did. How did you end up solving it in the end? It seems like LL would be near impossible to solve with normal OLL and PLL.


Both Ville and I used Corners, Centers, Edges
The second time I did Corners+Center, Edges
Layer by Layer was never an option for me, but should be possible as well


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## Johannes91 (Mar 11, 2009)

Robert-Y said:


> If you did U on a solved cube, would it be possible to solve it using only r, u, and f moves?


No.


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## Robert-Y (Mar 11, 2009)

Thanks for that Johannes, could you easily prove why it's not possible please?


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## ThePizzaGuy92 (Mar 11, 2009)

i couldn't do it on my first try, I will get it soon


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## Lucas Garron (Mar 11, 2009)

Robert-Y said:


> Thanks for that Johannes, could you easily prove why it's not possible please?


Center/corner parity.


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## AvGalen (Mar 11, 2009)

Robert-Y said:


> Thanks for that Johannes, could you easily prove why it's not possible please?


Stefan posted a link to that prove, Lucas nicely summarized it. It seems like Stefan, Johannes and I all seemed to think every position was possible, then realised only half are


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## Robert-Y (Mar 11, 2009)

Ok thanks Lucas and Arnaud  I'm not good with proving stuff on puzzles, but my interest in it is growing and growing. Maybe it's because I'm hopefully going to do maths at university.

Btw, I think I've found an 8 edge orienter: (r u) * 60


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## byu (Mar 11, 2009)

Nice, Robert!

I was too lazy to do this on my cube, so I used alg.garron.us.
Here is the link I used.


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## Robert-Y (Mar 11, 2009)

Also, here's a 10 edge orienter: (r' u r' u') * 45

Ok I think I might be able to do it, I just need to find out algs to permute edges


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## Robert-Y (Mar 11, 2009)

this does nothing lol: (r u' r' u) * 18


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## qqwref (Mar 11, 2009)

One of my old cube programs does this kind of stuff for me. So I decided to make some random algs.

-(r' u r u')9 does two corner 2-cycles. (Same effect as (R' U R U')3.)
-(r2 u r u r' u' r' u' r' u r')5 does two 3-cycles of centers (U-R-F, D-L-B). (USEFUL!!! Solve centers last!)
-(r u r' u' r' f r f')5 does a corner 3-cycle on U. (Same effect as F R' F' L F R F' L'.)
-(((r2 u2)6 f2)2 r2)2 has the same effect as R2 E2 R2 E2.
-(f2 u' r u' r' u f2 u r u r')3 does a 2-corner swap and a 4-center-cycle. (what?)
-(f2 u' r u' r' u f2 u r u r')3 u (r u' r' u' f2 u' r u r' u f2)3 u' does an H-perm on the corners of U.
-r u r' u' r' f r2 u' r' u' r u r' f' u does a corner-edge pair 3-cycle as I said before.
-(r' f r f' u r u' r')9 does a 10-flip (all but DL, DB), which is quite useful.

So I guess you could go about doing the EDGES first with intuition and the R2E2R2E2 alg and the T-perm alg, and then finish the corners using the 2-2-cycle and frfl cycle, and finally do the centers. I dunno.


EDIT: YEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH! I solved it! Woohoo! (My post was 23 minutes ago so I guess that's about how long it took, didn't time it, and I messed up a couple times on the edges stage and had to restart)
I did like I said just above. First I solved edges - I got three cross pieces intuitively and then solved everything else with the T-perm alg; at the end I had two edges flipped so I used the 10-flip twice with appropriate setups. Then I did the corners, using (r' u r u')9 for the D corners and the frfl cycle for the U ones; at the end I had some twisted corners so it took me a LOT of applications of frfl with various setups to untangle that. And finally the centers, I had the 2-2-cycle case but I just applied the centers alg I had a few times to fix that. YEAH! I GOT IT! It's really satisfying to finally see a solved cube after all the long algs and setups, I recommend that anyone who thinks they can solve this thing to give it a go.


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## Lucas Garron (Mar 11, 2009)

byu said:


> Here is the link I used.


http://alg.garron.us/?alg=(r_u)60 

Anyhow, qqwref, are we going to see an avg12?


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## byu (Mar 11, 2009)

Ah, thanks Lucas. I was trying to get that to work, but I was trying (r u)*60


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## AvGalen (Mar 11, 2009)

Congrats Michael! Very nicely done. I will try to make up an even harder challenge


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## Lucas Garron (Mar 11, 2009)

AvGalen said:


> Congrats Michael! Very nicely done. I will try to make up an even harder challenge


<l r2 R, U u2 d> on 4x4x4? (lowercase = single slice)


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## Johannes91 (Mar 11, 2009)

Lucas Garron said:


> <l' r R, U u d'> on 4x4x4? (lowercase = single slice)


Isn't that isomorphic to <Rw, Uw> on 3x3x3?

Maybe <l' r R, U u> on 4x4x4 or <l' m' r R, U u e'> on 5x5x5? Scary...


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## qqwref (Mar 11, 2009)

Or try Ol' Ridiculous: <Uw, M> on 5x5. You think (u r) on 3x3 takes a long time to repeat? (Uw M) takes 3080 repetitions.

To be honest, I still have trouble solving <r,U> on 4x4 >_> Guess I just suck huh? 

Oh, and can you guys use SiGN please? l' m' r R is ridiculously unweildy, whereas 4r looks nice and pretty.


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## Stefan (Mar 11, 2009)

AvGalen said:


> Both Ville and I used Corners, Centers, Edges


Me, too, now. Somewhat finished the method and did a handful of solves, best time so far was 4:12.96. More details/algs later.



AvGalen said:


> Layer by Layer was never an option for me, but should be possible as well


Definitely. I checked out the old threads on the yahoo group with the keychain pulling version, back then I solved F2L intuitively (probably Fridrich-style) and then had quite alright somewhat "followable" algs (i.e. not just random five turns repeated thirteen times) for CO, EO, CP and EP:
http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/speedsolvingrubikscube/message/15614



Lucas Garron said:


> Anyhow, qqwref, are we going to see an avg12?


Definitely. At least from me.


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## Stefan (Mar 11, 2009)

Now my record is 2:27.25, although that was a really exceptional solve. I'm still unsure about some situations and then I have to think during the solve, would like to get rid of that. More algs could help a lot, too, particularly nice 3-cycles of edges.


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## qqwref (Mar 11, 2009)

Nice job Stefan... I don't think I could ever get times like that without much shorter algs.


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## Stefan (Mar 11, 2009)

What are your algs?

Corners are trivial. Then I solve centers with these:
T perm twice for a 180 degrees center rotation
(r u) (r u' r' u' r' u' r u) to rotate centers around a corner
The latter is easy, the first (r u) creates some distortion and the rest just resolves the corners.

Then for edges I use this double J perm variation:
(r u r' f' r u r' u' r' f r2 u' r') y (l' u' l f l' u' l u l f' l2 u l) y'
My y is more like 45 degrees, i.e., I actually try to stay in real <r,u,f>. Anyway, this does a 3-cycle of edges. I'd like to be able to do it backwards, that would help my time, but I'm too lazy to learn new als so I just do it twice. I use this for everything, including flips.


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## Stefan (Mar 11, 2009)

Getting more consistent:
2:49.54, 2:58.60, (4:00.73), (2:27.80), 2:39.65 => 2:49.26

Now I stop until someone beats me.


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## Stefan (Mar 11, 2009)

Here's a sweet alg: r' f r f' u' r u r' f' u f u'


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## byu (Mar 11, 2009)

StefanPochmann said:


> Here's a sweet alg: r' f r f' u' r u r' f' u f u'



I'll use that as my scramble and try and solve from there 

Total Time: 0.00

Beat that Stefan!


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## AvGalen (Mar 12, 2009)

Can anyone point me to a working link for ksolve?

I found several links in http://www.speedsolving.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1201 but none of them work anymore 

This topic also nicely details the differences between Stefan and me:
* I think I discovered a new challenge, Stefan dives deep into cube history and shows me I didn't
* I answer the "is every position reachable" by pointing out things I discovered during playing, Stefan gives/points at the theoretical explanation
* I just get the challenge solved with a KISS-method, Stefan actually searches for algs and practises them
* Some users don't understand the challenge, Stefan does a Pochmann (tm), I politely explain to them what the challenge is


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## Gunnar (Mar 12, 2009)

AvGalen said:


> Can anyone point me to a working link for ksolve?



http://apelgam.se/Rubik/ksolve.zip

For those who doesn't know, it's my brother Kåre who has made the program. You define the puzzle in a textfile, so it can solve pretty much any puzzle.


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## Spooter (Mar 12, 2009)

tim said:


> Odin said:
> 
> 
> > tim said:
> ...


Yah, actually you can, its called u3.....


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## AvGalen (Mar 12, 2009)

Gunnar said:


> AvGalen said:
> 
> 
> > Can anyone point me to a working link for ksolve?
> ...


Thanks Gunnar



Spooter said:


> tim said:
> 
> 
> > Odin said:
> ...


WOW, you don't read other peoples post before you decide to post yourself, don't you


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## Ville Seppänen (Mar 12, 2009)

3:44,91, (5:22,86), 3:18,31, (2:59,89), 3:18,88 = 3:27.37
Dang, doesn't quite beat Stefan.


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## AvGalen (Mar 12, 2009)

Ville Seppänen said:


> 3:44,91, (5:22,86), 3:18,31, (2:59,89), 3:18,88 = 3:27.37
> Dang, doesn't quite beat Stefan.


.....yet?


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## Ville Seppänen (Mar 12, 2009)

Indeed: (3:10,12), 2:06,45, (1:49,05), 2:21,03, 2:08,25 = *2:11.91*

And here an average of 12: 3:44,91, (5:22,86), 3:18,31, 2:59,89, 3:18,88, 2:09,20, 4:52,91, 3:10,12, 2:06,45, (1:49,05), 2:21,03, 2:08,25 = 3:01.00


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## Stefan (Mar 14, 2009)

I wrote a scrambler now so that we have high quality scrambles: http://stefan-pochmann.info/spocc/other_stuff/tools/scramble3x3ruf/. It produces a two-page PDF file with 25 scrambles on each page. Every time you reload the page it should give you different scrambles. The reason for using 40 moves is explained on my tools page: http://stefan-pochmann.info/spocc/other_stuff/tools/.


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## trying-to-speedcube... (Mar 14, 2009)

The scrambler sometimes gives canceling moves between the first and second line. 

Not to say it's bad, but it isn't really like it should be, right?


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## Stefan (Mar 14, 2009)

I love KSolve.

Single: *1:08.19*

Average: *1:35.36*
(1:08.19), 2:16.19, 1:38.78, 1:29.67, (2:21.91), 1:27.78, 1:25.06, 1:41.09, 1:51.26, 1:13.52, 1:10.52, 1:39.70

The move canceling bug should be fixed now, thanks.


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## Stefan (Mar 14, 2009)

Did a few more solves just to get rid of the 2+ minutes times...

Single: *1:04.34*

Average: *1:27.44*
1:27.78, 1:25.06, 1:41.09, (1:51.26), 1:13.52, 1:10.52, 1:39.70, 1:23.47, 1:31.41, 1:29.09, (1:04.34), 1:32.72


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## Stefan (Mar 14, 2009)

AvGalen said:


> This topic also nicely details the differences between Stefan and me:
> * I think I discovered a new challenge, Stefan dives deep into cube history and shows me I didn't
> * I just get the challenge solved with a KISS-method, Stefan actually searches for algs and practises them


Well, point 1 is somewhat the reason for point 2. Because I had been working on this before theoretically but never much practically, this time I finally wanted to record some times and get good at it. Also, the algs I used yesterday (when I averaged about 2:50) were just algs I knew, like the Tperm or Jperm, but done with <r,u,f> instead of <R,U,F>. Finding useful combinations of these algs, and finding/learning the setup moves, those were the new and hard parts.

Me digging out the old discussions was btw not meant as "this isn't new, you moron". Just in case someone thought that (not Arnaud, I think he understood my intention). No, I knew there were old ideas but couldn't remember much myself, so I went looking for them. And I like how the discussions referred backwards several times in steps of about two years. I'll probably devote a page on my website to <r,u,f> solving, pointing to the earlier discussions, describing the equivalence with the keychain solving problem, explaining the parity issue, including my scrambler, and finally showing how I solve it now (and others, if they tell me how they do it and if it's fast or interesting).


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## Stefan (Mar 14, 2009)

New average: *1:16.45*
1:07.97, 1:14.53, 1:23.64, (1:30.41), 1:09.94, 1:26.80, 1:12.38, 1:11.89, 1:14.61, 1:23.00, (1:06.22), 1:19.77

C'mon, Ville! Catch me!


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## Stefan (Mar 14, 2009)

YES!

Single: *59.31*

Average: *1:15.58*
1:17.78, 1:18.16, 1:05.25, 1:09.56, 1:18.50, 1:16.47, (59.31), (1:31.55), 1:27.02, 1:26.66, 1:04.28, 1:12.09


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## Hadley4000 (Mar 14, 2009)

After about 30 minutes, I managed to get a 2x2x2 block. I'm proud.


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## Ville Seppänen (Mar 14, 2009)

C'mon Stefan! Give me some cool algs! I'm using [r2 f2 r2 (u/u'/u2)]*2 and (r2u2)*6 for edges. And I'll do some solves tomorrow.


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## Stefan (Mar 14, 2009)

Hadley4000 said:


> After about 30 minutes, I managed to get a 2x2x2 block. I'm proud.


You really can be, already for sticking to it (few people even really try it at all), but also for that block. I just did that myself and it took me around four minutes, despite all my experience with this (the next time it took me only one minute, though).



Ville Seppänen said:


> C'mon Stefan! Give me some cool algs! I'm using [r2 f2 r2 (u/u'/u2)]*2 and (r2u2)*6.



So you got everything you need. For edges I only use variations of your [r2 f2 r2 (u/u'/u2)]*2, plus setup moves. How did you find that alg?


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## Ville Seppänen (Mar 14, 2009)

StefanPochmann said:


> For edges I only use variations of your [r2 f2 r2 (u/u'/u2)]*2, plus setup moves. How did you find that alg?



Dang, I guess I need skill then.

Arnaud showed me this cycle: R2 F2 L2 D L2 F2 R2 U. I just tried it in <ruf> and it worked.


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## EmersonHerrmann (Mar 14, 2009)

Ville, you are not allowed to do this while looking, you must do BLD


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## deco122392 (Mar 14, 2009)

EmersonHerrmann said:


> Ville, you are not allowed to do this while looking, you must do BLD



ah haha yes i think this should be the new chalange lol


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## Stefan (Mar 14, 2009)

Ville Seppänen said:


> Arnaud showed me this cycle: R2 F2 L2 D L2 F2 R2 U. I just tried it in <ruf> and it worked.



Ah, yes, that's his FMC trick cycle, right? I had thought about asking him for it because I thought it might work here as well. Oh well, later KSolve helped me.

Looking forward to your progress. I'm very happy with the method I made, but there could very well be something still better, and you're my #1 guess for who might beat me (and not just because you're close already).

Btw, I've done around 100 solves with my current method now, so it's not just skill but also practice.


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## Stefan (Mar 15, 2009)

Single: *51.75*
Lucky corners/centers (didn't need to permute U corners, didn't need to permute centers). When I saw the time, I was shocked, my second best time is 58.94. Here's the scramble:
f2 r' f' u2 r' u2 f' r f' u2 r' u2 r2 u2 r u r' f2 u' r2 u2 f' r2 f r' u2 r' f2 r f r2 u f2 r f2 u2 r' u2 f r'

Average: *1:11.88*
1:13.53, 1:04.17, 1:11.41, (1:27.44), 1:25.70, 1:24.69, 1:10.69, 59.58, 1:15.30, 1:04.86, (51.75), 1:08.84
Still making mistakes too often.


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## SRV (Mar 15, 2009)

After a long time I managed to get a 2x2 block + a solved cross piece and the pair that was to be placed between them, but didnt manage to insert it...

Still happy though, it took some effort...


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## Ville Seppänen (Mar 15, 2009)

Ugh, I will beat your average tomorrow. Atleast I beat your single.

Single: *50.33*
Scramble: F2 U R' F2 U F2 R U R2 U2 F2 U' R2 F' R U R2 F2 U R' F' U' R2 F' U2 F U2 F R U F2 U2 F2 R F' U' R' U' F R2

Average: *1:15.52*
(50.33), 1:10.42, 1:24.75, 1:26.09, 1:07.08, 1:03.73, 1:29.20, 1:01.55, 1:32.09, (1:55.28), 59.77, 1:20.56


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## Stefan (Mar 15, 2009)

Whoa, that came earlier that I thought. How many solves so far?


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## Gparker (Mar 15, 2009)

haha i feel so left out, ive been trying to get it for a couple of days


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## Ville Seppänen (Mar 15, 2009)

StefanPochmann said:


> Whoa, that came earlier that I thought. How many solves so far?



I've done about 50 solves now. Still some nasty cases that I can't handle too well.


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## Stefan (Mar 15, 2009)

Average: *1:07.21*
1:05.78, 1:08.95, 1:16.14, 58.58, (1:19.70), 1:09.92, 1:04.05, 1:06.44, 1:06.36, 1:08.52, 1:07.36, (52.48)

Just trying to make it a little bit harder for you. I suspect you're more efficient, solving two edges at a time, is that right? I solve one at a time (as if I'd ever do something else). I feel I've hit a plateau and would need to change my method to improve significantly...


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## Stefan (Mar 15, 2009)

Oh well...

Single: *47.83*

Average: *1:02.39*
55.75, (47.83), 53.14, 1:16.08, 1:03.83, 1:16.14, 56.12, 1:02.36, 1:08.92, 48.05, (1:20.55), 1:03.47

Enough for today...


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## MistArts (Mar 15, 2009)

ARGH! This is too hard! I had only 4 edges left and mistaked undoing the setup.


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## Stefan (Mar 27, 2009)

Alright... new records:

Single: *39.77*

Average: *49.13*
48.65 43.58 48.86 49.47 50.13 50.88 (40.22) 48.41 48.09 47.63 (57.46) 55.61

The 40.22 was my record, but yesterday I did some more solves just to make a video and I managed to get a 39.77. Here's that video:
http://www.speedsolving.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10777


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## Ville Seppänen (Mar 30, 2009)

So I finally remembered I was supposed to beat you so I practiced a bit.

Average: *58.33*
52,95, (48,48), (1:25,50), 1:02,92, 1:00,34, 58,08, 55,22, 57,95, 52,08, 57,34, 1:09,30, 57,11

These were my first solves in over a week. Only rolled out a 1:54. My hand doesn't seem to like this sort of turning though. :/ I will aim for sub50 average.

EDIT: oh btw, are you still solving 1 edge at a time or 2(like me)?


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## Stefan (Mar 30, 2009)

Ville Seppänen said:


> Average: *58.33*


Phoo... relief. When I saw you had posted here again, I was afraid to look.



Ville Seppänen said:


> are you still solving 1 edge at a time or 2(like me)?


Two at a time? That's crazy talk! No, I haven't even *tried* that. The thought makes me shudder.

What are your times for the piece groups? I believe mine are roughly like this:
corners: 9-10 seconds
centers: 2-3 seconds
edges: 40 seconds

Alright, I did try two edges at a time solving now and succeeded. Wasn't so bad, but I didn't take the time. I think I'd have to practice a lot to reach my one-at-a-time speed.


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## cpt.Justice (Mar 30, 2009)

Is it allowed to rotate the cube during inspection? If so, getting better than 9-10 seconds shouldn't be too hard. Why was it you didn't use Ortega btw?


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## Stefan (Mar 30, 2009)

cpt.Justice said:


> Is it allowed to rotate the cube during inspection?


Yes, wouldn't make sense to try to forbid tilting the cube at all, and where does slight tilting end and where does rotating start? What matters is to only make the allowed moves, double layer turns not involving the special corner.



cpt.Justice said:


> If so, getting better than 9-10 seconds shouldn't be too hard. Why was it you didn't use Ortega btw?


I guess I should. But I'd have to adapt my algs and focusing on the edges was much more interesting. I might try to improve corners+centers if someone beats me.


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## Lucas Garron (Mar 31, 2009)

StefanPochmann said:


> What matters is to only make the allowed moves, double layer turns not involving the special corner.


Nope. You're only allowed to do single-layer outer turns involving the special corner.


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## Stefan (Apr 1, 2009)

Lucas Garron said:


> StefanPochmann said:
> 
> 
> > What matters is to only make the allowed moves, double layer turns not involving the special corner.
> ...


Yeah alright, weaklings incapable of turning two layers at once are allowed to do your version instead.


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## yukiwerts (Apr 12, 2009)

tim said:


> Odin said:
> 
> 
> > tim said:
> ...



uhhhh...u3?


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## Neroflux (Apr 12, 2009)

yukiwerts said:


> uhhhh...u3?



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................./.................................................. ....,:`^`..}
.............../.................................................. .,:”........./
..............?.....__............................ .............:`.........../
............./__.(.....“~-,_..............................,:`........../
.........../(_....”~,_........“~,_....................,:`..... ..._/
..........{.._$;_......”=,_.......“-,_.......,.-~-,},.~”;/....}
...........((.....*~_.......”=-._......“;,,./`..../”............../
...,,,___.\`~,......“~.,....................`..... }............../
............(....`=-,,.......`........................(......;_,,-”
............/.`~,......`-...............................\....../\
.............\`~.*-,.....................................|,./.....\,__
,,_..........}.>-._\...................................|........... ...`=~-,
.....`=~-,_\_......`\,.................................\
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................................`:,,.............. .............`\..............__
.....................................`=-,...................,%`>--==``
........................................_\........ ..._,-%.......`\
...................................,<`.._|_,-&``................`\


----------

