# "sub30 is easy"



## DaveyCow (Apr 13, 2013)

rant: people that say that "sub30 is easy just practice" **** me off - am I the only one to say this? (prolly)


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## Clarkeeyyy (Apr 13, 2013)

Its true though.


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## applemobile (Apr 13, 2013)

Sub 30 is easy. Just practice.


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## mark49152 (Apr 13, 2013)

It's not easy for everyone, and yes if you are finding it hard work to get there it is annoying when people tell you it's easy. Just ignore them and enjoy your cubing!


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## Smiles (Apr 13, 2013)

The thing with sub-30 and even going in to sub-20 is that:
- you can have bad look ahead
- you can have subpar finger tricks
- you can have a rubik's storebought cube
- you can have cold fingers
- you can have slow recognition
- you can use things less advanced than rotationfull F2L and 4LLL

there's really nothing you _have_ to improve to be sub-30. that's why people say *practice.*

i can combine all those things and still be well under sub-30.

but to be like sub-15 or sub-10, you have to refine your skills and _improve_. that's where _just practicing_ will not get you.

people often say "how do i be sub 30" or 40 and those threads are just as annoying as people just saying "practice".
the threads and questions that get actual constructive replies are the ones that ask how to improve on certain areas. you shouldn't be annoyed, everyone's just telling the truth.

edit: no one really says getting to sub-30 is easy. it's not. although it can be difficult, the process is _simple._ practice.


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## MarcelP (Apr 13, 2013)

It's not easy. It took me roughly 8 - 10 months of daily training to become sub 30. Keep in mind every one grows at their own speed. It might take one two months to become sub 30 where another could take 2 years.


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## Username (Apr 13, 2013)

It is only practice, and the time it takes to get there depends on the person. I was sub 30 in a week after i bought my first speedcube


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## Dene (Apr 13, 2013)

With modern cubes and the volume of information available around today, there is absolutely no excuse for taking more than even 2 months to reach sub30. You should be able to do it in 2 weeks.


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## Smiles (Apr 13, 2013)

Dene said:


> With modern cubes and the volume of information available around today, there is absolutely no excuse for taking more than 2 months to reach sub30. You should be able to do it in 2 weeks.



i did do it within that time, but only cause i was pretty dedicated and cubing all the time.

not everyone can cube all that much, and some people just dont have great memory for algs, or maybe aren't as naturally dexterous with their fingers as others.
and some people just don't care as much. there are a whole bunch of factors.


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## pipkiksass (Apr 13, 2013)

Sub 30 isn't "easy", but the answer IS practice. The _amount_ of practice will vary from person to person, but it is definitely the answer. I practice a little, maybe an hour on a good day, sometimes I hardly pick up a cube, and I'm averaging 25-27 atm after about 4 months cubing, but sub-30 was a hard goal to reach. 

As a little bit of an indicator, these are my weaknesses, and I'm still sub-30:

Cross - still sometimes only track 3 pieces. Recorded some solves last night, and had a 27 with a 9 second cross!
F2L - barely look ahead, just know cases really well. If something leaps out at me I might get a 20-23 second solve
OLL - mostly 2-look. Some of the 1 look cases I know I still don't execute as fast as the 2-look, because I never bothered drilling them
PLL - 1-look, but some of my PLLs are 5 seconds (I KNOW!). One of my recorded solves last night I finished OLL at 17 seconds, and it was a 22 second solve! :fp

So what does this mean? Practice alone has got me sub-30. More targetted practice, and improving the (many) things I suck at, should get me sub 20.


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## Smiles (Apr 13, 2013)

pipkiksass said:


> Sub 30 isn't "easy", but the answer IS practice. The _amount_ of practice will vary from person to person, but it is definitely the answer. I practice a little, maybe an hour on a good day, sometimes I hardly pick up a cube, and I'm averaging 25-27 atm after about 4 months cubing, but sub-30 was a hard goal to reach.
> 
> As a little bit of an indicator, these are my weaknesses, and I'm still sub-30:
> 
> ...



Cross - get the whole cross solve in your head before starting, no matter how long it takes
F2L - if you know the cases well, this is the best time to start practicing look ahead
OLL - don't need to drill them, at least not yet (if ever, really) i dont. unless you have a serious problem with the speed/finger tricks (or you just learned a new alg) you shouldn't really need to drill.
PLL - with time things will come together. but make sure you have good enough finger tricks and get them into your muscle memory so you don't make any bad habits.

good luck!


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## Bestsimple (Apr 13, 2013)

It takes time but it's not miraculous feat.


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## mark49152 (Apr 13, 2013)

Dene said:


> With modern cubes and the volume of information available around today, there is absolutely no excuse for taking more than even 2 months to reach sub30. You should be able to do it in 2 weeks.


This is exactly the kind of BS that I agree with the OP is really annoying. Everyone is different. As with anything in life, when those who find it easy patronise those who find it more difficult, it's annoying.


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## MarcelP (Apr 13, 2013)

Dene said:


> With modern cubes and the volume of information available around today, there is absolutely no excuse for taking more than even 2 months to reach sub30. You should be able to do it in 2 weeks.



Yeah, and sub 10 should not take more than 4 months. Especially when you have no life other than cubing.


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## Smiles (Apr 13, 2013)

that post shoulda started with
"assuming you have no life"


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## moralsh (Apr 13, 2013)

I had an official average of 30.62 after around a year of cubing and around 8 months of speedcubing so by the standards in this thread I have been quite slow to get there.

I happen to be 9751 out of 21412 people who has entered 3x3x3, so I guess around 12000 people have been cubing for less than 2 weeks when they set their average 

Practice will get you there, I think everybody is capable of sub 30 and even sub 20 but the amount of time to get there may be different from one to another and substantially bigger than the time that cubing internet nerds like us tell as I don't think this or any other forum is representative of the whole cubing population.


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## Gordon (Apr 13, 2013)

I started cubing in jund 2011 and am still not sub 30. 

Sometimes it drives me crazy, but then I try to keep in mind that maybe I'm not comparable to other cubers.
In general this doesn't bother me much, because I know I do not have the time to practice the same ammount or time each day like others.
I work 9 hours a day, have family, and horses, which all need their amount of time. And besides their need of time I also want to spend time with them and other hobbies.
That's why I roughly practise (and by practice I do not mean just do a solve now and then) only about 20 to 30 mins a day.

What I'm trying to say is, that you don't have to count the days, weeks or months since you started cubing. Count the effective time you practice. 
And don't forget to keep in mind that some of us cubers are cubers that learn faster than others, maybe some of us are natural talents and it would be wrong to compare yourself with them.

Just have fun solving puzzles. If you are fast, good. If you are faster.... even better. But don't do it for the speed, do it for the fun.


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## applemobile (Apr 13, 2013)

Dene said:


> With modern cubes and the volume of information available around today, there is absolutely no excuse for taking more than even 2 months to reach sub30. You should be able to do it in 2 weeks.



You have been cubing since 2007 and you STILL haven't achieved an official sub 10 single? There is no excuse for that.


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## cxinlee (Apr 13, 2013)

I was averaging 36 seconds with an unlubed Rubik's brand. I switched cubes and I immediately got sub 30.
Sub 30 is easy. Just practice for 4 months consistently and you will get it.


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## pipkiksass (Apr 13, 2013)

cxinlee said:


> Sub 30 is easy. Just practice for 4 months consistently and you will get it.



4 months is totally arbitrary. Practice may do it, but the amount of practice, and the length of time it takes, will differ greatly from cuber to cuber



Smiles said:


> Cross - get the whole cross solve in your head before starting, no matter how long it takes
> F2L - if you know the cases well, this is the best time to start practicing look ahead
> OLL - don't need to drill them, at least not yet (if ever, really) i dont. unless you have a serious problem with the speed/finger tricks (or you just learned a new alg) you shouldn't really need to drill.
> PLL - with time things will come together. but make sure you have good enough finger tricks and get them into your muscle memory so you don't make any bad habits.
> ...



I know all this, I was just making the point that you can get sub-30 without any of the things I lack!!! 

Thanks very much for the advice anyway, it's nice to have confirmation. I'm glad in a way that I've got to the averages I'm at with all these problems, rather than some people who are similar speed, but with great cross and LL. It means I have different areas to improve, and small improvements everywhere will help.

I think what I meant by OLL drilling was really for the 1-look algs I'm learning. I find that I've used them so little they end up slower than the 2-look alternative.

Hey ho!


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## MichaelErskine (Apr 13, 2013)

It's not easy for others to understand how unique a person can be - I'm right there with those sympathetic to your cause: I've been speedcubing since July 2008 and I'm still not consistently sub-30. I follow advice and practice whenever I can. I have received sterling advice from some of the world's fastest cubers but I still haven't grasped some key element or other that restricts my progress. When I work it out I'll let everyone know - it might be exactly what you need! Don't worry about it - nobody can truly know what it's like for anybody but themselves - that goes for so many aspects of life and cubing is no different.


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## kunparekh18 (Apr 13, 2013)

*Re: "sub30 iz ez"*

To break the sub-30 barrier I had to learn full PLL

Sent from my A75 using Tapatalk 2


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## qqwref (Apr 13, 2013)

A bit off topic, but Michael, just watching one of your really old official solves, I get this impression:
- You don't seem to plan out much of the cross, and the parts you don't already know how to do after inspection take a while to fix. Perhaps you could practice no-inspection cross, or do some slow cross solves to see how you can solve the last 1-2 edges efficiently. There are really not too many tricks needed to solve the cross in relatively few moves, so I'm guessing you just need to play around with it until you can do single-edge inserts like R'FR or DR' without thinking (and really familiar with your color scheme - from knowing one piece in the cross, you should know where any other cross piece goes).
- Be flexible with F2L. I usually find a corner first, and any unsolved corner will do (don't just look for a specific one). Then once you find it you can try to find the accompanying edge. (Sometimes I do this in the other order, finding the edge first). Ideally you find something useful while you're doing the previous F2L pair - as soon as you see the piece, start following it with your eyes, and maybe see if you can find the piece it wants to be paired to as well. You may be concentrating too much on the current F2L pair to look at other stuff. In that case, you can practice by recognizing an F2L pair, closing your eyes and doing it, then opening them again to look for the next thing. You want to trust yourself that it will end up solved, so you can start finding pieces as you do the turns.
- Your LL looks okay, but I would suggest to not use algs with M turns if you can't do them with one finger  Except maybe H-perm, because there is basically no other fast way to do that.


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## Mike Hughey (Apr 13, 2013)

kunparekh18 said:


> To break the sub-30 barrier I had to learn full PLL



To break the sub-30 barrier, I had to learn full OLL. In the snow. Wearing sandals. And I LIKED it.

No, seriously, I did learn full OLL (and obviously full PLL) to break the sub-30 barrier. I'm sure I could have made it with just practice, but I had trouble thinking of anything else specific to work on, so it seemed like a reasonable way to go to learn OLL as a thing to work on while shooting for sub-30. It did help - it made it easier to get there.

Now I'm struggling with sub-20, which people again say is easy - just practice. I did a thousand solves plus some targeted practice this week; we'll see if I can get there soon this way.


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## johndmc (Apr 13, 2013)

Hey all! 

im finding it hard to get sub 60secs at the moment, lol. I got my first cube in Nov 12, i do love cubing though, i just dont have the time to practice that much and learn all the algs, i work full time, and im studying a degree part time. My times are coming down slowly though. I also started learning roux, which seems to suit me better i think. But quickest is still 1min17s with F2L.


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## cxinlee (Apr 13, 2013)

johndmc said:


> Hey all!
> 
> im finding it hard to get sub 60secs at the moment, lol. I got my first cube in Nov 12, i do love cubing though, i just dont have the time to practice that much and learn all the algs, i work full time, and im studying a degree part time. My times are coming down slowly though. I also started learning roux, which seems to suit me better i think. But quickest is still 1min17s with F2L.


1. Practice
2. Learn Algs
If you are willing, find some free time for cubing. It's not like your whole schedule is packed.


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## JianhanC (Apr 13, 2013)

Varies a lot among people really. I'd say sub30 took a tiny bit of effort for me. For cross just keep trying to optimise your movecount, eventually it becomes so natural for you that you'll think back and wonder how dumb you were , F2L just turn slowly, track other pieces, LL just turn fast.


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## johndmc (Apr 13, 2013)

cxinlee said:


> 1. Practice
> 2. Learn Algs
> If you are willing, find some free time for cubing. It's not like your whole schedule is packed.



Yeah im not making excuses really, there is no better method than practice to improve, thanks for the tips


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## MichaelErskine (Apr 13, 2013)

qqwref said:


> A bit off topic, but Michael, just watching one of your really old official solves, I get this impression:
> - You don't seem to plan out much of the cross, and the parts you don't already know how to do after inspection take a while to fix. Perhaps you could practice no-inspection cross, or do some slow cross solves to see how you can solve the last 1-2 edges efficiently. There are really not too many tricks needed to solve the cross in relatively few moves, so I'm guessing you just need to play around with it until you can do single-edge inserts like R'FR or DR' without thinking (and really familiar with your color scheme - from knowing one piece in the cross, you should know where any other cross piece goes).
> - Be flexible with F2L. I usually find a corner first, and any unsolved corner will do (don't just look for a specific one). Then once you find it you can try to find the accompanying edge. (Sometimes I do this in the other order, finding the edge first). Ideally you find something useful while you're doing the previous F2L pair - as soon as you see the piece, start following it with your eyes, and maybe see if you can find the piece it wants to be paired to as well. You may be concentrating too much on the current F2L pair to look at other stuff. In that case, you can practice by recognizing an F2L pair, closing your eyes and doing it, then opening them again to look for the next thing. You want to trust yourself that it will end up solved, so you can start finding pieces as you do the turns.
> - Your LL looks okay, but I would suggest to not use algs with M turns if you can't do them with one finger  Except maybe H-perm, because there is basically no other fast way to do that.



Yeah, the problems with my solving need their own website  (I've hijacked many threads with my woes and probably started a good few!)

Yes my cross is still terrible: WCA inspection time is often not enough for me to plan a complete cross - when I do have time I often still mess it up in execution! I've done all sorts of cross-focussed practice but I shall try again.

I don't really want to cover the rest right now - that video is a bit old. Sincerely thanks for trying to help though. What I will do is try to get some current solves on video - something a bit more representative - and put them forward for critique. However, insane as it sounds, I often know what I'm doing wrong while I'm doing it but am unable to correct it without introducing additional mistakes. Each really bad solve I do typically ends with me making a (mental) note of all the things that I believe have contributed. But that doesn't stop those things from happening! Nevertheless I shall try to get a video up soon.

Also, I can't seem to look ahead, identify cases, turn accurately, or do fingertricks. Don't get me started on the difficulty I have trying to learn algorithms  Sounds hopeless I know but I keep smiling between the rants of frustration!


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## sneaklyfox (Apr 13, 2013)

For people who say things like, "It took a whole year of cubing to get sub-30!" Well, you know the 10,000 hour rule, right? The idea is that it takes roughly that much time to master something. If you practice 2 hours a day, it would take you more than 13 years to master the cube. Even if you cubed 10 hours a day, it would take you almost 3 years. So cubing isn't as hard as some other things because I believe people can "master" it much faster with less practice. (Obviously, I don't really believe the 10,000 hour rule applies to everything.)

But yeah, I agree with OP that just because it's easy for some people doesn't make it easy for others and it can be annoying when people say it was easy to do such-and-such when you're having a hard time with it. Everyone has different talents and natural abilities and cubing may come easier for some.


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## mark49152 (Apr 13, 2013)

kunparekh18 said:


> To break the sub-30 barrier I had to learn full PLL


I learned full PLL to get sub-50 and relearned most of them again with different algs and fingertricks to get sub-40. I videoed myself to see what I was doing wrong and watching it back was a shocker - I felt like I was turning flat out but the video showed a lazy geriatric solving in slow motion. My TPS is awful, that's the bottom line, so it does take me ages to improve, whatever algs I learn. My cross and F2L suck as well. Basically I enjoy cubing and am determined to get sub-30 and one day maybe even sub-20, but my hands are 4x the age of some on this forum so it takes more work to get there. Sub-30 is easy for some, but everyone's different, and it's not always down to methods or learning algs or even practice.


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## qqwref (Apr 13, 2013)

sneaklyfox said:


> Well, you know the 10,000 hour rule, right?


Yep, and it's not at all accurate unless you're talking about how much time it takes to truly maximize your potential in an extremely competitive field.



sneaklyfox said:


> So cubing isn't as hard as some other things because I believe people can "master" it much faster with less practice.


But how many people do you think have "mastered" cubing, or even 3x3x3? People who really have learned everything they can, and are as fast as they can possibly go? It can't be more than a few dozen. I think it's pretty common for someone to reach a plateau and just not have the time, motivation, or knowledge to make the improvements they are capable of. I know I've been stuck around 11.5-12 average for a while, but I definitely wouldn't say I've mastered anything - I'm capable of faster times, even if I can't seem to actually get them.


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## Petro Leum (Apr 13, 2013)

qqwref said:


> But how many people do you think have "mastered" cubing, or even 3x3x3? People who really have learned everything they can, and are as fast as they can possibly go? It can't be more than a few dozen. I think it's pretty common for someone to reach a plateau and just not have the time, motivation, or knowledge to make the improvements they are capable of. I know I've been stuck around 11.5-12 average for a while, but I definitely wouldn't say I've mastered anything - I'm capable of faster times, even if I can't seem to actually get them.


saying that to master cubing ,you would have to learn everything you can and be as fast as you could possibly be, i would even say noone has reached this state so far. i do not even know someone who learned and uses full ZBLL, and even when watching top cubers like faz or 5BLD you can see some very little pauses or tps which can be improved. I believe it is silly for anyone to say "i can't get faster". There is always a way, it's just laziness.


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## DaveyCow (Apr 13, 2013)

Dene said:


> With modern cubes and the volume of information available around today, there is absolutely no excuse for taking more than even 2 months to reach sub30. You should be able to do it in 2 weeks.



hmmm so then what does that say about me? I've been cubing 2 years and not sub30 (and I practice every chance I get)

Aside from that, there have been some very good encouraging posts here! I'm glad I posted this  I think most comforting is knowing that there are others out there in the same boat as me (thx MichaelE, MikeH, Gordon...!) and experiencing the same frustrations/set-backs. I definitely agree (and need to keep reminding myself) that it should be for fun - putting too much emphasis on achieving goals detracts from that and I think ultimately keeps one from achieving them (or slows down the progress anyway).


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## yoshinator (Apr 13, 2013)

When we say that sub-30 is easy, we mean that it is like 10 times easier than sub-12, or much easier than sub-20. Just because you take forever to get sub-30 doesn't make it inherently hard, it just means that you improve slowly. Getting sub-30 is REALLY easy by comparison to other time barriers.


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## mark49152 (Apr 13, 2013)

Obviously - and sub-12 is easy compared to sub-10.


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## DaveyCow (Apr 13, 2013)

johndmc said:


> Hey all!
> 
> im finding it hard to get sub 60secs at the moment, lol. I got my first cube in Nov 12, i do love cubing though, i just dont have the time to practice that much and learn all the algs, i work full time, and im studying a degree part time. My times are coming down slowly though. I also started learning roux, which seems to suit me better i think. But quickest is still 1min17s with F2L.



Sounds like we're about the same (at least starting out anyway) - though you're probably still doing better than I did - it took me 4 months to get down to 90 sec (of course I started out with a slow LL method) then 2 more months to get down to 60 (I have a spreadsheet with al my times recorded  ) But sounds like you're comeing along faster than I did 



yoshinator said:


> When we say that sub-30 is easy, we mean that it is like 10 times easier than sub-12, or much easier than sub-20. Just because you take forever to get sub-30 doesn't make it inherently hard, it just means that you improve slowly. Getting sub-30 is REALLY easy by comparison to other time barriers.



oh yeah - I need to remember about the "relatively speaking" thing  (btw saw yur sub3 Ortega vid - very nice I think it will help me alot!)


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## googlebleh (Apr 13, 2013)

Mike Hughey said:


> Now I'm struggling with sub-20, which people again say is easy - just practice. I did a thousand solves plus some targeted practice this week; we'll see if I can get there soon this way.


A thousand solves.....dang I wish I could spend that much time cubing....
And sub-20 might not be that simple--it depends on your turning style. My style is quite slow, but I was able to get sub-20 without full OLL/PLL because I just improved lookahead on F2L to eliminate pauses. On the other hand, you could do something like this and increase TPS to get good times, but I thought it was easiest to lookahead if you turn slow.


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## uniacto (Apr 13, 2013)

Sub 30 is easy enough if you can figure out how to lookahead.


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## jayefbe (Apr 13, 2013)

*"sub30 iz ez"*

For me, cubing is COMPLETELY about competing with myself, and trying to reach the absolute best of my abilities. Everyone should know that their abilities are not the same as everyone else's, and therefore, should not make universal statements like "there's no excuse for not being sub-30 in two weeks". Which side note, is one of the most jerkish statements I've seen on this forum. Dene, you obviously no longer remember what it was like to be a noob. You may have gotten very fast at cubing in a very short amount of time. Guess what, nobody cares!!! If you're so eager for recognition that you have to belittle EVERYONE'S abilities (I haven't seen anyone actually achieve sub-30 in two weeks), then you're obviously lacking in some aspects of your life. 

For the most part, I think people on this forum realize that getting better at cubing is a personal struggle that is different for everyone. For the most part, people seem to support each other, and get pleasure out of everyone's progress, regardless of their skill level. But their are some people that feel like they need to brag unnecessarily, or denigrate other people's progress in some passive aggressive manner. Everyone's abilities are different. You might be able to cube better than someone else. Cool, use that ability to support them and try to make them better. But being faster doesn't give you the right to belittle someone's progress. Everyone has different struggles. Chances are, this slower person can absolutely whoop you in some other aspect of life. For the most part, this is a very supportive community. But I think there are a few that could use some more self-awareness and humility. Being sub-30 is not easy. For the majority of the world, just solving a Rubik's cube is not easy. 

And remember, those that need to brag, don't actually have anything to brag about.


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## Escher (Apr 13, 2013)

The word 'practise' has completely different meanings to different people. 

As a coach I think I could get almost anybody to be sub-30 within a month, it just so happens that for some people, the methods of learning they need, and the way it's relayed, aren't as easily available online - nor do you have the luxury of somebody who knows what they're doing to point out your mistakes and get you to correct them. I would go so far as saying that I could get anybody with the will to do it to around 12 seconds within 6 months, as long as I had at least weekly contact with them. Honestly, cubing is primarily mental and if you aren't lucky enough to have the resources out there to help you learn in your own way, then you're going to have a lot setbacks, so much so that you might never reach the potential you deserve. Cubing can be thought of in so many different ways that I think it's actually the kind of hobby that can fit a hell of a lot of different people.

That said, a necessary fact of everybody's brains being different means that some people just can't absorb the info in the right way, or visualise the cube in an intuitive enough way to do it quickly. It's not a weakness, it's just like how some people can't write essays, or that others simply can't do maths - regardless of whether they have the mental ability to solve the problems in a different context. Being young and having the benefit of a high level of neuroplasticity really does help though.


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## antoineccantin (Apr 13, 2013)

It really depends on the circumstances. 

Personally, it took me much over a year to get sub-30 because I didn't cube a ton, my methods were crappy and I didn't know better.


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## mark49152 (Apr 13, 2013)

I agree with Jayefbe. My experience in running club is that some people average 8 minutes per mile, some 7, some 6 and some faster. Everyone's got different ability and potential and everyone's on the same mission, which is to improve their own time. But I never heard anyone say to anyone else "6 mins per mile is easy, just train". Probably because they wouldn't dare say it f2f


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## Dene (Apr 13, 2013)

Smiles said:


> i did do it within that time, but only cause i was pretty dedicated and cubing all the time.



Having to practise a lot to achieve something is a given... surely no one thinks their targets are going to solve themselves?



mark49152 said:


> This is exactly the kind of BS that I agree with the OP is really annoying. Everyone is different. As with anything in life, when those who find it easy patronise those who find it more difficult, it's annoying.



How is everyone different such that with dedicated practise sub30 can't be achieved even with a nice Guhong or Zhanchi and the multitude of algorithms available? That's not to mention the hundreds of great tutorials from top cubers available on YouTube.



MarcelP said:


> Yeah, and sub 10 should not take more than 4 months. Especially when you have no life other than cubing.



That's retarded; although I would suggest sub15 is well achievable in 4 months with dedicated practise. If you have other things to do and can't find the time to cube, then I repeat, of course these goals aren't just going to occur themselves. You actually have to put in the time and effort to achieve things in life, surprisingly enough.



applemobile said:


> You have been cubing since 2007 and you STILL haven't achieved an official sub 10 single? There is no excuse for that.



Rawr, don't practise, don't care about 3x3, etc.



DaveyCow said:


> hmmm so then what does that say about me? I've been cubing 2 years and not sub30 (and I practice every chance I get)



And how much is "every chance [you] get"? An hour or two a week? Or an hour or two a day? I'll give you an example of what I used to do: I'd show up to lectures, and while waiting for them to start, I'd sit with my algorithm sheets which I printed of CubeZone 6 years ago (I'm oldskool), and learn my PLLs. I'd check a few times throughout the day that I still knew the algorithm, then the next day I'd check again until I was sure it was memorised, while moving onto the next alg. I still use most of the same algorithms today. It wasn't a lot of time dedicated, but that little effort here and there is what makes the difference to achieving a goal. Do you do the same thing?


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## kcl (Apr 14, 2013)

Idk if I'm normal or not, but I started cubing like January 1st of 2013. After like a month I learned CFOP. I was sub 25 in around a month and a half. To get sub 30 I pretty much drilled f2l. I made it a goal to be under 20 seconds every time. Now I'm at a point where it's my LL slowing me down not f2l.


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## uniacto (Apr 14, 2013)

kclejeune said:


> Idk if I'm normal or not, but I started cubing like January 1st of 2013. After like a month I learned CFOP. I was sub 25 in around a month and a half. To get sub 30 I pretty much drilled f2l. I made it a goal to be under 20 seconds every time. Now I'm at a point where it's my LL slowing me down not f2l.



how fast is your f2L?


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## wontolla (Apr 14, 2013)

I think age has something to do with this.

It looks like older people (30+ years) we struggled to get sub-30. Regardless of countless hours of practice, new hardware and great documentation.


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## CuberCat (Apr 14, 2013)

jayefbe said:


> For me, cubing is COMPLETELY about competing with myself, and trying to reach the absolute best of my abilities. Everyone should know that their abilities are not the same as everyone else's, and therefore, should not make universal statements like "there's no excuse for not being sub-30 in two weeks". Which side note, is one of the most jerkish statements I've seen on this forum. Dene, you obviously no longer remember what it was like to be a noob. You may have gotten very fast at cubing in a very short amount of time. Guess what, nobody cares!!! If you're so eager for recognition that you have to belittle EVERYONE'S abilities (I haven't seen anyone actually achieve sub-30 in two weeks), then you're obviously lacking in some aspects of your life.
> 
> For the most part, I think people on this forum realize that getting better at cubing is a personal struggle that is different for everyone. For the most part, people seem to support each other, and get pleasure out of everyone's progress, regardless of their skill level. But their are some people that feel like they need to brag unnecessarily, or denigrate other people's progress in some passive aggressive manner. Everyone's abilities are different. You might be able to cube better than someone else. Cool, use that ability to support them and try to make them better. But being faster doesn't give you the right to belittle someone's progress. Everyone has different struggles. Chances are, this slower person can absolutely whoop you in some other aspect of life. For the most part, this is a very supportive community. But I think there are a few that could use some more self-awareness and humility. Being sub-30 is not easy. For the majority of the world, just solving a Rubik's cube is not easy.
> 
> And remember, those that need to brag, don't actually have anything to brag about.



Dude, thanks. I started to feel like a terrible cuber cause I've been at SUB 1 minute for ages. I started to learn CFOP this Easter. Hope I can SUB 50 - SUB 40 soon. Thanks...


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## cxinlee (Apr 14, 2013)

It took me like 4 months to get sub 20, and 6 months to get sub-30.


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## sneaklyfox (Apr 14, 2013)

jayefbe said:


> For me, cubing is COMPLETELY about competing with myself, and trying to reach the absolute best of my abilities. Everyone should know that their abilities are not the same as everyone else's, and therefore, should not make universal statements like "there's no excuse for not being sub-30 in two weeks". Which side note, is one of the most jerkish statements I've seen on this forum. Dene, you obviously no longer remember what it was like to be a noob. You may have gotten very fast at cubing in a very short amount of time. Guess what, nobody cares!!! If you're so eager for recognition that you have to belittle EVERYONE'S abilities (I haven't seen anyone actually achieve sub-30 in two weeks), then you're obviously lacking in some aspects of your life.
> 
> For the most part, I think people on this forum realize that getting better at cubing is a personal struggle that is different for everyone. For the most part, people seem to support each other, and get pleasure out of everyone's progress, regardless of their skill level. But their are some people that feel like they need to brag unnecessarily, or denigrate other people's progress in some passive aggressive manner. Everyone's abilities are different. You might be able to cube better than someone else. Cool, use that ability to support them and try to make them better. But being faster doesn't give you the right to belittle someone's progress. Everyone has different struggles. Chances are, this slower person can absolutely whoop you in some other aspect of life. For the most part, this is a very supportive community. But I think there are a few that could use some more self-awareness and humility. Being sub-30 is not easy. For the majority of the world, just solving a Rubik's cube is not easy.
> 
> And remember, those that need to brag, don't actually have anything to brag about.



Good post.

I'm as fast as I am now and I am improving (though sometimes I run into time barriers for awhile) and I believe I can be faster. Good enough for me.



wontolla said:


> I think age has something to do with this.
> 
> It looks like older people (30+ years) we struggled to get sub-30. Regardless of countless hours of practice, new hardware and great documentation.


Yes, age is definitely a factor. I don't think I would say I struggled with sub-30 though. The first one I actually felt was probably sub-20. Now I'm at the sub-16 but I think I'm finally making progress again.


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## Ross The Boss (Apr 14, 2013)

it took me like a month or so days to get sub 30 with lbl. i cubed like every waking moment of every day though. i couldn't get under 29 seconds so i learned f2l, got to 25 seconds, switched to roux and im getting under 20 seconds now. it was easy for me to get sub 30, but is took a really long time for me to get faster after that. every one progresses at different rates.


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## kbrune (Apr 14, 2013)

Dene said:


> With modern cubes and the volume of information available around today, there is absolutely no excuse for taking more than even 2 months to reach sub30. You should be able to do it in 2 weeks.



No matter how you try to defend this post. It was arrogant. Once I decided I wanted to go to a comp and post an official sub30 result I was averaging 45-50 seconds. It took me at least 5-6 months of obsessive practice (3 hours per day on average) to be confident I could average sub30 in five solves. I've been pushing for sub 20 since that first comp last may. Some days I feel like i'm getting closer, and some days I feel like I just don't have the processing power required to consistently hit sub20's

We're not all blessed with the brain power that is required for sub X


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## s3rzz (Apr 14, 2013)

I think everyone could be sub 30 and if you have time like that take full advantage of ways to optimize. I've seen a lot of guys just get lazy and not want to learn algs, finishing up doing multiple olls and plls because of it.


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## Ninja Storm (Apr 14, 2013)

Sub-30 is achievable, for the most part, within a year with decent practice(inb4 hate comments about "time is arbitrary" and other ********). If you practice daily(not 100 solves, just 10-15 every day), learn your algs and more advanced strategies, and upgrade hardware, you'll be fine.


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## Dene (Apr 14, 2013)

cxinlee said:


> It took me like 4 months to get sub 20, and 6 months to get sub-30.



Makes sense XD


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## JHB (Apr 14, 2013)

I've been cubing for about 2 and half years and currently average 45 seconds. I feel okay with this because cubing has to come last in my life. 
Those who work full time and have young families may be in similar positions. Sometimes I can get 50 solves in a day, but most days less than 5. Dedicated practice time is not something I have a choice in.


DaveyCow said:


> rant: people that say that "sub30 is easy just practice" **** me off - am I the only one to say this? (prolly)


Amen brother! Sub 30 seconds may come easily to a lot of cubers but unfortunately manners and social graces don't always.
Sub 30 is more than achievable and I'm well on my way. Heck, I have halved my average times in the last year or so and I'm trying to do the same again this year.


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## pipkiksass (Apr 14, 2013)

Ninja Storm said:


> Sub-30 is achievable, for the most part, within a year with decent practice(inb4 hate comments about "time is arbitrary" and other ********). If you practice daily(not 100 solves, just 10-15 every day), learn your algs and more advanced strategies, and upgrade hardware, you'll be fine.



But time IS arbitrary. It's not false, it's a fact. That's like saying anyone can learn to speak fluent French in a year. Send someone who understands language to live in France, and they'll be speaking French in a fortnight, and fluent in 2 months. After a year, they've changed their name to Jean-Pierre and own a small garlic farm in Rouen. Sit someone who doesn't understand language in front of a YouTube video about how to learn French, let them practice in their own living room for an hour a night... 2 months later they're lucky if they're any further down the line. After a year, they're frustrated and wondering if French is the right language for them; maybe watching a YouTube video about how to learn Russian!

Everyone learns, and acquires skills, at a different pace, depending on how much time they can dedicate to the subject, and how analytically and methodically they approach it. Why should cubing be any different? It's entirely arbitrary to say that _everyone_ should be able to achieve sub 'x' within 'y' months.

I'd agree with your comment about "decent practice" though, and I think this is the key. You can do 1000 timed solves a day, but if you aren't analysing your own solves, just blindly practicing, progress will be slow. So it's just as arbitrary to say 60,000 hours of practice will get you to sub 'x'. There's a massive difference between good practice and bad practice, and bad practice may get you to sub-30, but not very quickly!

I'm guilty of it myself - I'm sure I could be sub 20 already if I'd drilled PLLs and worked on my lookahead with slow solves, but I just love solving the cube! I have limited time to practice, so I spend the majority just doing solves. I'm happy with my progress - I know sub-20 will come, because I know what I need to work on. But I'm in no rush!

How long it will take each individual to get to sub-30 it's impossible to say. For some it'll be weeks, for some it'll be months or even years. Some may never make it. With the _right_ guidance, "decent practice", support from other forum members and good use of the available resources, it should be achievable for most, but putting a time limit on it only flatters those who are lucky or talented enough to progress more quickly, and frustrates those who are already struggling.


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## MarcelP (Apr 14, 2013)

pipkiksass said:


> ... After a year, they're frustrated and wondering if French is the right language for them; maybe watching a YouTube video about how to learn Russian!



LOL.. That is so true.. When I was averaging 1.30 minute I tried Block building Petrus method ,Roux and key-hole method because I was intimidated about the 47 (or how many are there?) F2L cases. Once I saw the intuitive F2L video of my cube God Badmepisto I was doing much better real quick.


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## Dene (Apr 14, 2013)

@pipkiksass You seem to be referring to sub30 as if it's some level that requires enormous skills and development of methods, but it isn't. Sub30 is simply knowing 2 look OLL, full PLL, and turning at 2tps. It's simple, not complicated. All it takes is turning faster, and most probably for people struggling to reach sub30, minimising the delay between steps. I bet everyone struggling to reach sub30 spends almost half the solve just looking at the puzzle. Remove that half of the time and you'll be well under sub30.


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## applemobile (Apr 14, 2013)

Dene said:


> Blah Blah I'm so great blah blah blah.




Just stop talking.


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## pipkiksass (Apr 14, 2013)

@Dene, no, not so much. If you see my original post on this thread you'll notice I'm sub-30 myself despite a distinct lack of skill, no special methods, horrible amounts of cube rotations, and issues at every stage in my solve. All I'm saying is that everyone is different - some people are stuck at sup-13, or sup-20. Others are stuck at sup-30. Wherever you're stuck, only good practice will help you progress. Whether that practice consists of slow turning to eliminate pauses at sup-30, or multi-slotting/*insert other advanced technique here*, to push below 10/12/15/whatever.

I'm not saying sub-30 is complicated, but just because something is simple doesn't mean it will be easy for everyone to do it, or that everyone will be able to achieve it in a certain period of time.


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## Smiles (Apr 14, 2013)

sub 30 is something anyone can do, but it depends on commitment and how often you practice, how you practice, etc.
tps isnt an issue because, for example, cfop solves are about 60 htm, which is 2+ tps. that means t perm in 7 seconds!
lookahead isnt a big deal either, since i remember being a solid sub 25 without looking ahead one bit. 2 look OLL as well.
having a good cube isnt required since the tps doesnt need to be high.

so what do you need? a good understanding of your method, the ability to do it efficiently, and obviously a good ability to handle turning the cube.

getting to know your method and turning the cube with finger tricks is all basics. sure full PLL may take some work if you hate memorizing, but its part of the basics and saying sub30 is easy is assuming you know basics.

it takes time, but far less effort than barriers below 20


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## applemobile (Apr 14, 2013)

Remember That that 5 second T-perm includes recognition. Which really is people's downfalls.


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## mark49152 (Apr 14, 2013)

Dene's done a great job of proving the OP's point.


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## Dene (Apr 14, 2013)

applemobile said:


> Just stop talking.



Urright I am so great  .



applemobile said:


> Remember That that 5 second T-perm includes recognition. Which really is people's downfalls.



If it's taking people that long, no wonder they're so slow. Perhaps they should practise...



mark49152 said:


> Dene's done a great job of proving the OP's point.



And yet I find it interesting that everyone agreeing with the OP are all saying the same things e.g. "everyone's different"; "if it's simple for you it might not be simple for me"; but I don't see any real reasons here, just excuses. The truth is, they just don't put in the time and effort. Whether that's because they have other commitments is completely irrelevant; sub30 is still easy. Just like Escher was saying, if I could coach someone, and I'm not exactly a pro myself, I could get them sub30 in a short space of time as long as they were prepared to put in the practise. The only barriers I could possibly see preventing that from happening are either mental or physical disabilities.


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## pipkiksass (Apr 14, 2013)

I'd love to have a cubing coach - someone to shout at me when I do pointless practice, and make me drill PLLs and slow down my F2L! 

I think some people put in the time and effort, but maybe lack direction? I don't doubt that anyone could get sub-30 with a good instructor pointing out their errors and helping them improve.


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## applemobile (Apr 14, 2013)

Dene said:


> If it's taking people that long, no wonder they're so slow. Perhaps they should practise...



Colour and pattern recognition doesn't come easy to many people. When we breakdown speedsolving into its raw elements the key points are Colour/pattern recognition, dexterity, and memorization converted to muscle memory. To solve sub X you need to be sufficient at all of those things, at different levels. Without one of them you will get no where. Sure, to reach sub 30 you don't to be excellent at all of those things. You can have poor dexterity, you can have poor muscle memory. But you require at least moderate colour/pattern recognition. If your brain is not built to do this task, you will find it incredibly difficult to achieve faster times. 





Dene said:


> And yet I find it interesting that everyone agreeing with the OP are all saying the same things e.g. "everyone's different"; "if it's simple for you it might not be simple for me"; but I don't see any real reasons here, just excuses.



Oh gohd are you listening to yourself? At first i thought you were trolling, then i realised that you are just ignorant. Yes everyone is different, and different people will achieve different things in different times. This becomes most apparent when it comes to musical ability, mainly because its obvious when someone is awful. There are some people around that will never, ever how hard they try be able to keep a simple steady beat on a drum kit. They can practice all they want, but they will just achieve very little. 




Dene said:


> The truth is, they just don't put in the time and effort. Whether that's because they have other commitments is completely irrelevant; sub30 is still easy. Just like Escher was saying, if I could coach someone, and I'm not exactly a pro myself, I could get them sub30 in a short space of time as long as they were prepared to put in the practise. The only barriers I could possibly see preventing that from happening are either mental or physical disabilities.




Are you aware of the concept of terminal velocity?


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## mark49152 (Apr 14, 2013)

@Dene: You're completely missing the point. "Easy" is subjective. When you tell somebody that something they are struggling to achieve is easy or that they simply aren't practising enough, that is usually perceived as condescending, dismissive, arrogant and annoying, as the OP said - regardless of how you define easy or how much they practise or whether they go on to actually find it easy.

Besides which, the "it's easy" input is completely worthless and only serves to make one person irritated and the other look like a jerk, so why bother? If the intention is to offer encouragement, there are better ways to do it. There are some great resources on SS to help cubers get sub-30 and give them encouragement (like the race thread) so better to just point them at those than announce your judgement on their failure or laziness.


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## Ninja Storm (Apr 14, 2013)

pipkiksass said:


> But time IS arbitrary. It's not false, it's a fact. That's like saying anyone can learn to speak fluent French in a year. Send someone who understands language to live in France, and they'll be speaking French in a fortnight, and fluent in 2 months. After a year, they've changed their name to Jean-Pierre and own a small garlic farm in Rouen. Sit someone who doesn't understand language in front of a YouTube video about how to learn French, let them practice in their own living room for an hour a night... 2 months later they're lucky if they're any further down the line. After a year, they're frustrated and wondering if French is the right language for them; maybe watching a YouTube video about how to learn Russian!
> 
> Everyone learns, and acquires skills, at a different pace, depending on how much time they can dedicate to the subject, and how analytically and methodically they approach it. Why should cubing be any different? It's entirely arbitrary to say that _everyone_ should be able to achieve sub 'x' within 'y' months.
> 
> ...



Yeah, putting two different types of people into two different scenarios will certainly produce a biased outcome.

If someone is mentally retarded or has logic issues, then obviously they won't be sub-30 as fast as someone who has been doing multiple logic puzzles for years. However, because "for the most part", people fall within that spectrum, a majority of people will probably be sub30 within a year, as that's a decent time frame to understand a puzzle, and receive experience from others. "For the most part" my friends at school started cubing a year ago, and at this point, the ones that practiced and kept with cubing more than once per week are sub30.


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## pipkiksass (Apr 14, 2013)

Lol, interesting interpretation of my post! I think the key phrase in yours is 'at school' - I'm not surprised that most of the people at your school have the time to put in decent practice, and also the school environment breeds competition. Someone with a full-time job and young family, cubing on their own at home, will clearly progress more slowly.


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## antoineccantin (Apr 14, 2013)

If you're involved enough, yeah sure, you can be sub-30 in 2 weeks. However, many beginners don't know where to get the information, like good algs, how to practice or even where to get good cubes.

anyway, that's how I was.


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## kunparekh18 (Apr 14, 2013)

You people shouldn't speak about how long it takes to get sub-30, or how easy it is, especially you, Dene.

Just because you could get sub-30 quickly doesn't mean everybody could. Each and everyone has a different learning pace.


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## JF1zl3 (Apr 14, 2013)

kunparekh18 said:


> To break the sub-30 barrier I had to learn full PLL
> 
> Sent from my A75 using Tapatalk 2



Words of truth right here.


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## cxinlee (Apr 14, 2013)

JF1zl3 said:


> Words of truth right here.


I'm not using full Pll and I am sub-20.

To get sub-30:
1. Make sure that your cube is good enough ( ShengShou is pretty good)
2. Practice.


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## JHB (Apr 14, 2013)

pipkiksass said:


> .Someone with a full-time job and young family, cubing on their own at home, will clearly progress more slowly.



"Sorry but Daddy can't play with you know because he's practising."
"No Honey, I can't cook tea, I'm practising."
"No the report isn't done yet, I've been practising."

I AGREE: I know I could improve if I dedicated more time to the craft of cubing, but I'd rather be a dedicated *father* and *husband* and make a difference in the world with my chosen profession. My life is rich and fulfilling....so it doesn't bother me if I don't get a chance to practise. I've always got a cube in my pocket anyway.

*Now young readers take note:* Life is about people, not puzzles. Put people first and then cube to your heart's content if that's what makes you happy. Each time I look over the first thing I wrote here ("Sorry but Daddy can't play with you now because he's practising") it upsets me and I am so glad that it does. Who do you really want to be in life?


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## pipkiksass (Apr 14, 2013)

Absolutely right - my daughter is asleep on me right now - I only cube when my wife and baby are in bed. I sometimes wonder how fast I'd be if I'd learnt when I was a student and had time to burn... But doesn't really bother me, I wouldn't swap my busy life now for anything!


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## applemobile (Apr 14, 2013)

JHB said:


> *Now young readers take note:* Life is about people, not puzzles. Put people first and then cube to your heart's content if that's what makes you happy. Each time I look over the first thing I wrote here ("Sorry but Daddy can't play with you now because he's practising") it upsets me and I am so glad that it does. Who do you really want to be in life?



That's your interpretation of what life is about. Not all of us are people orientated. Not all of us are family people. Some of use want to live our own lives and do whatever we want to do. Also, if one wants to succeed in a cuthroat buisness, you have to trample on peoples heads to get there. Putting people first in your life will not make you the director of a Multi-million pound/dollar/euro/potato company. Different people want different things.


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## JHB (Apr 14, 2013)

applemobile said:


> Also, if one wants to succeed in a cuthroat buisness, you have to trample on peoples heads to get there. Putting people first in your life will not make you the director of a Multi-million pound/dollar/euro/potato company.



You are correct- some people have no soul. Not being about people is fine; we're all different. Some of us aren't blessed with family- I myself am clinging on to the few that I have. Ironically, if you are the director of a Multi-million pound/dollar/euro company then you won't have time to cube anyway.  Only a monster would encourage people to intentionally tread on others to get ahead. 
Please don't wish others to become evil.  When I was young, and had others to support my interests and I honed my guitar skills, just as these young ones are honing their cubing skills. It's great that they might become world class cubers before the responsibilities of life take over. It's not a bad thing, it's just a thing.


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## Petro Leum (Apr 14, 2013)

applemobile said:


> That's your interpretation of what life is about. Not all of us are people orientated. Not all of us are family people. Some of use want to live our own lives and do whatever we want to do. Also, if one wants to succeed in a cuthroat buisness, you have to trample on peoples heads to get there. Putting people first in your life will not make you the director of a Multi-million pound/dollar/euro/potato company. Different people want different things.



life is people oriented. always buy people first, then puzzles


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## pipkiksass (Apr 14, 2013)

JHB said:


> It's not a bad thing, it's just a thing.



Love it! May have to steal this.


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## Ross The Boss (Apr 14, 2013)

Petro Leum said:


> life is people oriented. always buy people first, then puzzles



i prefer puzzles to people.


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## Petro Leum (Apr 14, 2013)

Ross The Boss said:


> i prefer puzzles to people.



after all, most puzzles are cheaper, so youve got a point


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## applemobile (Apr 14, 2013)

JHB said:


> You are correct- some people have no soul.
> 
> Please don't wish others to become evil.  When I was young, and had others to support my interests and I honed my guitar skills, just as these young ones are honing their cubing skills. It's great that they might become world class cubers before the responsibilities of life take over. It's not a bad thing, it's just a thing.




You don't have to be a monster to be ruthless. It's a case of just not putting up with crap. If someone is not up to your standards, or is holding you/your life back, then you need them out of your life. The chain is only as strong as the weakest link, so why tolerate other people who hold you back? Sure people may deem that attitude to make you a 'monster' but others may deem it efficient and effective. People lie miserable lives in unhappy relationships for years, because they don't have the kahoonas to leave, for fear of upsetting the other parties involved. Reality being you would both be happier apart. So sometimes being 'selfish' makes other people happy by proxy.

Anyway I digress. The term 'easy' is subjective.


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## Forte (Apr 14, 2013)

Just as a personal thing, if someone asks me about cubing, I always say that sub30 is easy to do. I'm not saying it comes quickly or anything, but from what I've seen, sub30 just comes from repetitive practice to minimize recall time, as opposed to using intense thinking to lookahead or track pieces or things like that.

I really don't want to be harsh, but there is a certain point at which we have to be able to say "this is easy", "this is slightly hard", "this is hard", or else no one will really have anything to determine how hard something actually is. If someone comes on the forum and asks "how hard is sub30", and people say "you just need practice", I'm guessing (based on my experience) that nine times out of ten, that will be all that person needs to get sub30. I know that there are a some people for which that won't be true, but just because there are people that are slower than others at picking things up (everyone's slow at something!), it doesn't mean that we should not be giving those opinions that apply to most people.

Here's another thing I thought of. Isn't there some speed that you think is easy to achieve? Like sub60 or sub120 or something.
I'm not too sure, but eventually at some point you would probably say "you just need to practice to get under it".
I (and other people) see sub30 like that, so hopefully you can understand where we're coming from.

w/e just my thoughts


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## johndmc (Apr 14, 2013)

DaveyCow said:


> Sounds like we're about the same (at least starting out anyway) - though you're probably still doing better than I did - it took me 4 months to get down to 90 sec (of course I started out with a slow LL method) then 2 more months to get down to 60 (I have a spreadsheet with al my times recorded  ) But sounds like you're comeing along faster than I did



thanks for the feed back, i don't really know any other cubers, none of my friends are cubers its just something i picked up as i wanted to be able to solve one, and it grew from there. Not having anyone else's experiences to benchmark i wasn't sure i was actually getting anywhere. You've helped a lot DaveyCow, much appreciated


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## MichaelErskine (Apr 14, 2013)

johndmc said:


> thanks for the feed back, i don't really know any other cubers, none of my friends are cubers its just something i picked up as i wanted to be able to solve one, and it grew from there.


I can identify with this sentiment: not having other cubers to hang out with is no fun for progress. Although I know many cubers and get to spend some time with them at comps, they're generally busy with their own practice and it must be frustrating trying to teach me. People at my own speed or slower at one comp are miles ahead of me at the next. I come away from comps with lots of good advice: a billion things to "focus" on  I love Joey's advice to me: "turn faster"  

There's a lot of interesting opinion in this thread -- I'm not sure where the facts are though. I genuinely don't think I'm "retarded"  and the issue of age is at least being recognised. The amount of time I have available for practice is clearly not enough and probably the wrong sort of practice. My clumsy hands don't follow orders - inaccurate turns. My concentration wandering: so many images, names, faces, places, words, numbers and sounds associated with each case. Staring at the cube wondering WTF2L to do. My muscle memory executing the wrong sequence. My colour and pattern recognition being mistaken. My internal mental dialogue telling me I'm wasting my time! Maybe that last one can be worked on 

I tell you what: learning new OLLs really does my head in even when consciously trying not to use it during solves as I can't help the enjoyment of trying to identify the cases


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## Dacuba (Apr 15, 2013)

Sub30 is easy, if the people actually succeed to solve a Rubik's Cube. Solving it at the first place is harder than archieving sub30 afterwards


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## JF1zl3 (Apr 15, 2013)

cxinlee said:


> I'm not using full Pll and I am sub-20.
> 
> To get sub-30:
> 1. Make sure that your cube is good enough ( ShengShou is pretty good)
> 2. Practice.


I wasn't intending that to mean you HAVE to know full PLL to get sub-30, that's just what did it for me is all. What method do you use??


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## uniacto (Apr 15, 2013)

Haha I'm not using full PLL or OLL yet, and I'm sub 20 as well. I suppose it helps, but I'm too lazy xD


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## DaveyCow (Apr 15, 2013)

Dene said:


> And how much is "every chance [you] get"? An hour or two a week? Or an hour or two a day?... It wasn't a lot of time dedicated, but that little effort here and there is what makes the difference to achieving a goal. Do you do the same thing?



Yes I do the same thing.. every day whenever I get a chance I work on it. Since you say there's no excuse not to be sub30 in a few months, there must be something wrong with me?



antoineccantin said:


> If you're involved enough, yeah sure, you can be sub-30 in 2 weeks. However, many beginners don't know where to get the information, like good algs, how to practice or even where to get good cubes.
> 
> anyway, that's how I was.



yeah me too - I didn't even know about "speedcubing" when I first learned - for at least the first 6 months or more I taught myself/researched everything myself. I didn't know anyone else that cubed and so was on my own. I feel like my knowledge is actually greater because of that, but of course that meant it took longer to get to the point I'm at, if that makes any sense...




johndmc said:


> thanks for the feed back, i don't really know any other cubers, none of my friends are cubers its just something i picked up as i wanted to be able to solve one, and it grew from there. Not having anyone else's experiences to benchmark i wasn't sure i was actually getting anywhere. You've helped a lot DaveyCow, much appreciated



Glad I could help! As I mentioned above, I also didn't know any cubers when I started - just like you I picked up a cube and it grew from there. So yeah me too no one to "benchmark" against.

Several people have already mentioned that, and I have noticed it too, that overall the community seems to be supportive and encouraging. I really like this and it helps make it feel more like a family, which is kewl!


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## cxinlee (Apr 15, 2013)

JF1zl3 said:


> I wasn't intending that to mean you HAVE to know full PLL to get sub-30, that's just what did it for me is all. What method do you use??


Fridrich with 2-look Oll and almost all Plls. I'm gonna finish my Plls soon


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## Rubiksfreak (Apr 15, 2013)

Dene said:


> With modern cubes and the volume of information available around today, there is absolutely no excuse for taking more than even 2 months to reach sub30. You should be able to do it in 2 weeks.



Some people actually have a life. People work and can't cube 24/7 like others. Most people say practice, I think its more about identifying in the areas you struggle in and trying to improve in those areas

Sent from my LG-L38C using Tapatalk 2


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## JF1zl3 (Apr 15, 2013)

cxinlee said:


> Fridrich with 2-look Oll and almost all Plls. I'm gonna finish my Plls soon


Aww man, you gotta learn the rest of those PLLs and maybe a few of those OLLs from this thread, especially at how good you already are. Totally worth the minimal effort (vs potential savings) required. But I guess one could argue I don't know full PLL, because for the Ub perm it's faster for me to just do Ua twice, which can sort of be considered 2-look. Even though it's really 1-look and 2-alg.


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## sneaklyfox (Apr 15, 2013)

JF1zl3 said:


> Aww man, you gotta learn the rest of those PLLs and maybe a few of those OLLs from this thread, especially at how good you already are. Totally worth the minimal effort (vs potential savings) required. But I guess one could argue I don't know full PLL, because for the Ub perm it's faster for me to just do Ua twice, which can sort of be considered 2-look. Even though it's really 1-look and 2-alg.



I bet it would be faster if you knew the Ub perm to execute that instead of Ua twice.


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## JF1zl3 (Apr 15, 2013)

sneaklyfox said:


> I bet it would be faster if you knew the Ub perm to execute that instead of Ua twice.


It is, but i can do Ua 3 times as fast as Ub right now, so it will take some serious practice to get Ub back on par.


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## kunparekh18 (Apr 15, 2013)

JF1zl3 said:


> It is, but i can do Ua 3 times as fast as Ub right now, so it will take some serious practice to get Ub back on par.



Just use the MU alg xD done. 

Sent from my A75 using Tapatalk 2


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## JF1zl3 (Apr 15, 2013)

kunparekh18 said:


> Just use the MU alg xD done.
> 
> Sent from my A75 using Tapatalk 2



I never learned it lol. I remember your epic video of it though lol


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## SenileGenXer (Apr 15, 2013)

I'm over 40, I have arthritis in my hands and it's never going to get better. That's just not the way that works. I don't have good finger tricks and can't use my pinkies for anything.

sub-30 is a huge barrier. I don't think it's impossible, in fact I'm sure I've had a few sub 30 solves I just rarely time them.

I just barely have full PLL I'm working on G perm c and d and just doing them as mirrors. I know that's not ideal but it will be full PLL and G perms have been incredibly hard for me. I have nice 2-look OLL, partial edge control, great F2L, not so great look a head and I'm almost done with full PLL. The last has been my goal more than sub 30. 

I said a long time ago I would be happy with just full PLL but the next step for me is better look ahead and probably more exploration of edge control. It's perhaps more about what I can manage to learn not so much how I can manage to execute.


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## MichaelErskine (Apr 15, 2013)

Dacuba said:


> Sub30 is easy, if the people actually succeed to solve a Rubik's Cube. Solving it at the first place is harder than archieving sub30 afterwards


Clearly those terms "easy" and "hard" are being used with wildly different definitions! My first 3x3 method I learned in a weekend. Some years later and sub-30 is still a personal goal.


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## YddEd (Apr 15, 2013)

I just started cubing again and I can *just* get under 30 seconds average of 5


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## Dene (Apr 15, 2013)

applemobile said:


> Colour and pattern recognition doesn't come easy to many people...



If they can recognise the letter "T", then they can recognise a T perm. Essentially it's the same thing, it's just about doing it over and over so it's automatic, just like when that person learnt to read and write.



applemobile said:


> Yes everyone is different, and different people will achieve different things in different times...



Yes everyone is different, but basic skills like tying shoes can be taught to anyone, just like cubing. Sub30 only requires basic skill, to be honest. Also I don't see how the musical example is of any relevance; cubing doesn't generally involve rhythm. Regardless, if there actually are cases of people not being able to maintain a steady beat on a drum kit those would be extreme cases of people with a severe disability (which, you might notice, is a group excluded from my statements about sub30 being easy).



applemobile said:


> Are you aware of the concept of terminal velocity?



I might have heard of it. Why do you bring it up? I hope you don't plan on pushing me off a building and seeing how fast I go XD



mark49152 said:


> @Dene: You're completely missing the point. "Easy" is subjective. When you tell somebody that something they are struggling to achieve is easy or that they simply aren't practising enough, that is usually perceived as condescending, dismissive, arrogant and annoying, as the OP said - regardless of how you define easy or how much they practise or whether they go on to actually find it easy.



If "easy" is relative/subjective then this entire thread is completely pointless in the first place, because "sub30 is easy" means nothing.



mark49152 said:


> Besides which, the "it's easy" input is completely worthless and only serves to make one person irritated and the other look like a jerk, so why bother? If the intention is to offer encouragement, there are better ways to do it. There are some great resources on SS to help cubers get sub-30 and give them encouragement (like the race thread) so better to just point them at those than announce your judgement on their failure or laziness.



So what you're saying is the OP is allowed to complain, but I'm not? That's fair...



kunparekh18 said:


> You people shouldn't speak about how long it takes to get sub-30, or how easy it is, especially you, Dene.
> 
> Just because you could get sub-30 quickly doesn't mean everybody could. Each and everyone has a different learning pace.



Why especially not me? Who said I achieved sub30 quickly?



DaveyCow said:


> Yes I do the same thing.. every day whenever I get a chance I work on it. Since you say there's no excuse not to be sub30 in a few months, there must be something wrong with me?



A good hour or two a day of concentrated practise? (i.e. not while watching tv or something >.< ).



Rubiksfreak said:


> Some people actually have a life. People work and can't cube 24/7 like others.



Deary me, you seriously need to read threads before you post things. I clearly said that sub30 is easy with dedicated time and practise. If you're excuse is "I have a life so I can't dedicate time to cubing", how would you know sub30 isn't easy? You simply can't complain in the first place.


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## JHB (Apr 15, 2013)

I was really looking forward to *Melbourne Autumn * comp this year because it's normally the only chance I actually get talk to other cubers. But I didn't realise you guys viewed people like me as lazy when we're just doing the best we can with what we have. To say I'm disheartened would be an understatement. I mean, I really thought I would be able to post some sub 50 times this comp and that'd be a really big deal for me. 
I can remember just about any AFL (Australian Football League) statistic instantly or play most guitar songs just by hearing them once- I find that easy. Cubing skills take me longer even when I sit down and focus on something like a T perm. That permutation was my sole focus of late and it took me over a week to finally recall it in a solve when I had to. I'm trying as much as I can to fit cubing in my life.


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## Dene (Apr 15, 2013)

JHB said:


> I was really looking forward to *Melbourne Autumn * comp this year because it's normally the only chance I actually get talk to other cubers. But I didn't realise you guys viewed people like me as lazy when we're just doing the best we can with what we have. To say I'm disheartened would be an understatement. I mean, I really thought I would be able to post some sub 50 times this comp and that'd be a really big deal for me.



I don't think anyone's calling you lazy. My opinion is that someone who thinks sub30 is difficult, but also doesn't put in the time and effort required to meet such a target, is naive. Everyone understands if you have other priorities in life, and if so that's fine. The problem is people like the OP ranting when there as yet appears to be no justification for such ranting. See what I mean?

EDIT: For example, at the moment my cubing isn't getting any better, in fact it's getting worse. But the obvious reason is because the only practise I do is a couple of hours each weekend on the weekly comp. If I kept up those 2 hours a week for the rest of the year it would be naive of me to think I'm going to improve, because that simply isn't good enough to achieve targets that I would hypothetically aim for if I wanted to improve (e.g. sub12 3x3).


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## JHB (Apr 15, 2013)

Thanks mate. I know sub 30 is there for the taking and take it I shall.........Eventually!  I got posted on the facebook page of my footy club doing a 37 second solve after quite a few "lemonades" the other night so I guess anything is possible (like I said, I've always got a cube in my pocket). Becoming world-class at anything though takes sacrifices and less "lemonades."


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## mark49152 (Apr 15, 2013)

Dene said:


> If "easy" is relative/subjective then this entire thread is completely pointless in the first place, because "sub30 is easy" means nothing.


Its meaning depends entirely on its context. The context as stated in the OP is when someone genuinely struggling to get sub-30 is told "sub-30 is easy, just practice" by someone faster. In that context, it's flippant and annoying.

A lot of the debate in this thread is about whether sub-30 is absolutely "easy" or "hard". I really think that's irrelevant, as OP's point is about manners not difficulty. Most of us here find simply solving the cube easy (ignoring time), but when talking to someone struggling to do their first solve, it's generally better manners to agree with them that it's hard and congratulate them on their achievement when done!


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## JohanAR (Apr 15, 2013)

Dene said:


> I don't think anyone's calling you lazy. My opinion is that someone who thinks sub30 is difficult, but also doesn't put in the time and effort required to meet such a target, is naive.



So OP is annoyed with people who say, or imply, things like "I got sub-30 within XX weeks, therefore anyone should be able to do it in the same amount of time". Dene, on the other hand, is annoyed with people who expect to get to sub-30 without a fair amount of practice. Perhaps there's some things we could all agree upon?

How about:
- Most people can get to sub-30 eventually.
- You will need to practice.
- The time it takes will be individual, even with the same amount of practice.

I think if the goal was "benchpress your own weight" it would be very obvious that no two individuals would learn it in the same time. Factors such as age, genetics and starting fitness would play an important role, even with access to lifting technique videos on youtube. Similarly, I think most people agree that learning non-physical stuff, such as a language or maths, is much easier when you're young. To me it only seems logical that it's the same for getting fast in speedcubing.


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## Dacuba (Apr 15, 2013)

MichaelErskine said:


> Clearly those terms "easy" and "hard" are being used with wildly different definitions! My first 3x3 method I learned in a weekend. Some years later and sub-30 is still a personal goal.



But you _will_ archieve sub30, assuming you won't give up.
It wasn't that sure if you will manage to solve it in the first place.

Using words like "easy" and "hard" aren't really a good choice, yeah.


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## Ranzha (Apr 15, 2013)

I like how people say "practise is all you need" and never elaborate on what that entails.

I'm sticking by the idea that certain methods come more easily to some people than others. Practice is certainly required to get faster or more acquainted with speedsolving the puzzle, but certain methods of practice may not suit a cuber. They may even make the cuber slower. This would be bad practice, but what is bad practice for someone (e.g. repetitive solving) may be another's godsend. Mike Hughey, by doing thousands of solves, puts the method of repetitive solving to the test not to generalise this method for everyone (as many posters have suggested), but to see if such a method improves himself.

*Thus, in theory, bad practice can hinder a cuber from accomplishing a speed-related goal. Only after testing the waters of practice methods can a cuber discern what works most fittingly for him/herself.* It's like personal preference for cube selection. If cubers argue to choose the cube that best suits the individual cuber, why should that stop with practice?

Some practice methods: watching videos of people finger-tricking algorithms and trying them, learning 3x3 subsets, slow solving to aid recognition, solving with a metronome, solving while turning as fast as possible, not timing solves, doing "blind sessions" in which times are hidden until the end of a session, substep practice, algorithm drilling.

The list goes on.

Pick something, see how well it works, and if you don't think it's for you, try something else. But don't be afraid to come back later to test how well something works again; it might benefit you.

/mytwocents


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## ~Adam~ (Apr 15, 2013)

In order to achieve sub 30 I learnt all OLLs and PLLs then literally just had to solve cubes. I did no specialised practice what so ever. That took me down to about 18 seconds. That was over 2 years ago and now I'm about 17 seconds. I guess I should look into different types of practice now since I'm no longer improving.


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## MalusDB (Apr 15, 2013)

If you learn CFOP it literally will just happen with enough practice, and by practice I mean solving. Eventually you will become familiar with how you solve each case and the delay between each case being recognized will drop. Even with inefficient move counts the TPS required is nothing ridiculous. Also drilling your LL algs (and learning them, obviously..)!

I think your speed to achieve sub 30/20/15/12/10 is all just vaguely indicative of how much potential you have of going further really, exceptions applying.
I know I could have sub 30'd quicker had I learn't to solve more practically than just solving over and over, and learning maybe an alg a month, but it isn't something to strongly fixate on.. believe me you will soon set eyes further afield after hitting it, it won't be enough


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## kcl (Apr 16, 2013)

uniacto said:


> how fast is your f2L?



Usually no more than 12 seconds, mostly 9 to 10. It's the point where I can tell my LL wastes a lot of time. I know full PLL minus G (abc), and a bit of OLL. Mostly 2 LOLL though.


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## Dene (Apr 16, 2013)

mark49152 said:


> Its meaning depends entirely on its context. The context as stated in the OP is when someone genuinely struggling to get sub-30 is told "sub-30 is easy, just practice" by someone faster. In that context, it's flippant and annoying.



Alright but then this stresses my point exactly, because I can say "sub30 is easy" and in the context of my knowledge of what it takes to be sub30 I am right. So if the OP is right, and I'm right, and we're saying contradictory things, then what we're saying is obviously nonsensical. 



mark49152 said:


> A lot of the debate in this thread is about whether sub-30 is absolutely "easy" or "hard". I really think that's irrelevant, as OP's point is about manners not difficulty. Most of us here find simply solving the cube easy (ignoring time), but when talking to someone struggling to do their first solve, it's generally better manners to agree with them that it's hard and congratulate them on their achievement when done!



If it's just about manners, I think it's rude to come on here complaining about it...


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## yockee (Apr 16, 2013)

I was stuck at 30 for a good part of a year, although, it wasn't nearly as hard as breaking sub 20. I wanted to kill myself around 22. Now, I'm having almost as hard of a time breaking sub 15, although, it seems easier because I know more and know what to work on. I have a much easier time getting 13's now than I did getting 18's.


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## brian724080 (Apr 16, 2013)

I barely cube all that much, but I fell like achieving sub 30 is relatively easy...sorry for those who are still on the way.
But the real problem is you get stuck there, and you really have to drill it from there to achieve sub 20.
After that, you really have to improve, and practice all the time, obviously.


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## MichaelErskine (Apr 16, 2013)

Dene said:


> If it's just about manners, I think it's rude to come on here complaining about it...


It's about a subtle aspect of manners that allows a person to acknowledge another's situation: empathy. It is a lack of empathy is what annoys the OP. Denial of a person's situation: that is pretty much guaranteed to annoy those in that situation. As you might imagine it can be quite exasperating.

To summarise the thread from my own POV: I don't really need negative messages telling me I'm basically stupid and lazy -- those messages are coming through loud and clear in my own head while I'm trying to solve!


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## Isaac Paurus (Apr 16, 2013)

it wasn't super hard for me, i got m first sub 30 PB single, then i started averaging 30 (previously i averaged 39-43) then after a little while, my averaged dropped down to an inconsisten variation between 27-30. i never really practiced anything specific, i learned the rest of the PLLs, but that's about it. that's how all my barriers have been broken so far. currently i average 24-26.


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## Mike Hughey (Apr 16, 2013)

How about throwing another controversial statement on the flame?

Based on my experience of serious practice for 3x3x3 speedsolve and 3x3x3 BLD, I would say that averaging sub-20 speedsolve is approximately equal difficulty to averaging sub-1:30 with about 75% accuracy BLD.

I'm pretty confident I've put approximately equal effort into 3x3x3 speedsolving now as I put into 3x3x3 BLD by the time I was averaging sub-1:30 (with about 80% accuracy). I'm on the verge of averaging sub-20, and I'm very hopeful of getting there sometime in the next few weeks. I suppose the one difference is that I put that time into speedsolving over a period of about 2 years more than I did BLD (about 4 years for BLD, about 6 years for speedsolving). So my effort was a bit more concentrated (but not outlandishly much so) for BLD than it was for speedsolving.

And I don't see any difference in accessibility between BLD and speedsolving - they both just require practice. If anything, BLD is even more accessible than speedsolving, since people who have physical limitations keeping them from turning fast can still manage a time like 1:30 average BLD.


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## Dene (Apr 16, 2013)

I'd have to agree with you somewhat there Mr. Hughey. It is a bit "out there" to just throw out some numbers like "sub20" and "sub1:30", but in saying that they do seem reasonably comparable.


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## Mike Hughey (Apr 16, 2013)

Dene said:


> I'd have to agree with you somewhat there Mr. Hughey. It is a bit "out there" to just throw out some numbers like "sub20" and "sub1:30", but in saying that they do seem reasonably comparable.



Yeah, I guess my point is this: if you're right about sub-30 (and with some reservations, I agree with you), I think that it means there are about 4000 people (because there are over 4000 people with competition averages sub-20) out there who have competed in WCA competitions who, with equal work, could probably have managed sub-1:30 or so BLD.

One of my reservations is this: I'm starting to think it's really important to have long practice SESSIONS to get faster quickly just simply from practice. (And that may apply to BLD as well as speed - I've often done long sessions practicing BLD.) I've put in a lot of time on 3x3x3 speedsolving, but mostly in smaller sessions. I've had big bursts of improvement only when I've put in long sessions - several hours per day for several weeks at a time. Otherwise, I just simply don't improve.

I just got a 12.95 single! Outrageously lucky (like, fewest-moves lucky - 35 moves!), but it used to be that I couldn't rehearse an easy scramble and get that low. So I'm definitely getting better.


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## MichaelErskine (Apr 17, 2013)

Mike Hughey said:


> One of my reservations is this: I'm starting to think it's really important to have long practice SESSIONS to get faster quickly just simply from practice. (And that may apply to BLD as well as speed - I've often done long sessions practicing BLD.) I've put in a lot of time on 3x3x3 speedsolving, but mostly in smaller sessions. I've had big bursts of improvement only when I've put in long sessions - several hours per day for several weeks at a time.



I think that long practice sessions might be a way I can get out of this rut and it happens to be what I'm currently trying (so far this week 3hrs Sun, 2.5hrs Mon, 2hrs Tues, 2hrs planned for tonight). I'm doing solves in groups of 12 (now using gqtimer to chart results) and at my pace I can do about 100 solves in an hour with the occasional review of solves, trying OLL algs, etc. I don't know how long my family will put up with it but we'll see!


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## MarcelP (Apr 17, 2013)

MichaelErskine said:


> .. I can do about 100 solves in an hour..



Michael, Out of curiosoty, what do you average in an A0100? You have better times than me in WCA. At home I can get an sub 29 Ao100 with no problems.. I just can't get that fast in competition.



MichaelErskine said:


> I don't know how long my family will put up with it but we'll see!



Be carefull with that, cubing is not that important  I have the same problem. I think I spend too much time out side my family every now and then because of cubing.


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## MichaelErskine (Apr 17, 2013)

MarcelP said:


> Michael, Out of curiosoty, what do you average in an A0100? You have better times than me in WCA. At home I can get an sub 29 Ao100 with no problems.. I just can't get that fast in competition.


I do fine in competition on an average of 5 unless I make more than one bad mistake - also I get to go to quite a few competitions and I'm often in a good mood! At home my AO100 is always 31-32 and I'll have streaks of bad solves in the sup-40. I very rarely record a sequence of 12 solves that are all sub-30 (EDITED: I'm usually sub-30 A012 but usually make mistakes (or stupid big pauses) within that group).


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## mark49152 (Apr 17, 2013)

MarcelP said:


> Be carefull with that, cubing is not that important  I have the same problem. I think I spend too much time out side my family every now and then because of cubing.


Good advice, I have the same problem. It's just not worth it!


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## DaveyCow (Apr 17, 2013)

mark49152 said:


> Its meaning depends entirely on its context. The context as stated in the OP is when someone genuinely struggling to get sub-30 is told "sub-30 is easy, just practice" by someone faster. In that context, it's flippant and annoying.
> 
> A lot of the debate in this thread is about whether sub-30 is absolutely "easy" or "hard". I really think that's irrelevant, as OP's point is about manners not difficulty. Most of us here find simply solving the cube easy (ignoring time), but when talking to someone struggling to do their first solve, it's generally better manners to agree with them that it's hard and congratulate them on their achievement when done!



^THIS!!



MichaelErskine said:


> It's about a subtle aspect of manners that allows a person to acknowledge another's situation: empathy. It is a lack of empathy is what annoys the OP. Denial of a person's situation: that is pretty much guaranteed to annoy those in that situation. As you might imagine it can be quite exasperating.
> 
> To summarise the thread from my own POV: I don't really need negative messages telling me I'm basically stupid and lazy -- those messages are coming through loud and clear in my own head while I'm trying to solve!




lol Michael! We're one and the same!


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