# Cube Rotation or AUF before PLL?



## DAE_JA_VOO (Aug 4, 2008)

How's it guys.

Lately i've been finding that i could possibly save myself some time by doing AUF instead of cube rotations for PLLs. Let me explain, in case you're not sure.

When i get to the PLL stage of my solve, i align the already permuted pieces to find out what PLL i need to do. For my R perms, i have the two switched corners on the UB part of the cube. Let's say i'm doing a solve and i end up with the two corners now in the UF area, i find myself doing a 180 degree cube rotation and then performing the PLL. 

I could also do a U2 before the PLL and then another U2 after it, i'm pretty sure this will be faster, considering that a U2 move is lightning fast.

What do you guys do?


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## ccchips296 (Aug 4, 2008)

depends on the PLL...easy ones that leave u in a good position for U moves like H perms or J perms ur better off AUF...but ones like F or R perms, ur better off cube rotated.


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## nitrocan (Aug 4, 2008)

i almost always (like %99,9) auf before pll


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## joey (Aug 4, 2008)

I try to recognise PLL without doing an AUF first.


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## Lt-UnReaL (Aug 4, 2008)

Most R perms usually end in an AUF, so it makes sense to me to always AUF before an R perm, because a U move in the beginning (not counting the end, cause it already ends in an AUF move) is obviously faster than a cube rotation. :f

I usually will see the PLL without AUF unless it's a hard one to identify, like an R, V, A or some of the G's (for me at least). If the PLL is already in place, but needs a rotation, but will result in me doing extra U moves in the beginning and the end if I AUF first, then I will usually do the rotation because it could be hard to do ugly regrips for AUF moves.

But it is also cool that will some algs that end with an AUF move like a J or R, if you have them at certain angle before AUF, you can cancel the last AUF move. 
Example: if you set your cube up with: R U R' F' R U R' U' R' F R2 U' R' U2 y
You can just do R U R' F' R U R' U' R' F R2 U' R' and skip the last move.


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## PCwizCube (Aug 4, 2008)

I AUF for the pieces to be on the right position so that I if I do a cube rotation, I can immediately start the algorithm with AUF again. 

I recognize the case when I'm AUF and then I do a cube rotation so I can immmediatly execute the algorithm. 

I think a y2 is faster than doing U2 twice. Just a guess. Because you just had to do y2 and regrip for executing the algorithm. Otherwise you would do U2, regrip for executing the algorithm, and regrip again for doing U2.

Okay I know that was a horrible post but perhaps posts in this thread can help you:
http://www.speedsolving.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4714&highlight=Cube+Rotation


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## rjohnson_8ball (Aug 4, 2008)

I rotate the cube for a couple reasons. (1) Because I am not an expert, I like to pay attention to visual cues as I perform the algorithm. If the up face does not match the sides the way I am accustomed, it might throw me off. Yes, I can do all my PLLs without looking, but after a few beers in a bar the visual cues can help. (2) If I begin with AUF, then I might have a delay at the end, trying to remember how (or see how) to adjust the up face back. If I just stick to my algorithm, it finishes correctly, with no thinking.

I suppose an expert would save time using AUFs rather than rotating the cube, but I am no expert.


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## PCwizCube (Aug 4, 2008)

rjohnson_8ball said:


> I suppose an expert would save time using AUFs rather than rotating the cube, but I am no expert.


If you have noticed Yu Nakajima AUF so the PLL is in the right position, and then does a cube rotation and executes the algorithm. His entire PLL stage is like 2 seconds (maybe less?) and it works pretty well for him.


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## hagendaasmaser (Aug 6, 2008)

i auf a lot ...however for some reason i can't do it for the corner cycles...i have to see those centers align.


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## Ton (Aug 6, 2008)

AUF depends on the PLL , in general no cuberotations is the best, but if the U layer already is in it correct spot than I do a cube rotation . In general I do the UAF last because I know before the PLL how I will end. Only a few PLL I prefer to do a UAF because I end with a re-grip to do the UAF.


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## PCwizCube (Aug 6, 2008)

Ton said:


> AUF depends on the PLL , in general no cuberotations is the best, but if the U layer already is in it correct spot than I do a cube rotation . In general I do the *UAF* last because I know before the PLL how I will end. Only a few PLL I prefer to do a UAF because I end with a re-grip to do the *UAF*.


What does UAF mean?


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## Kenneth (Aug 6, 2008)

AUF PLL?

I got problems with this, if you are about to do PLL then the U-face is oriented and any adjustment to it does not change it. It is the layer we adjust, not the face 

Why do we not use ALL (adjust last layer) instead?


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## Lucas Garron (Aug 7, 2008)

Kenneth said:


> Why do we not use ALL (adjust last layer) instead?


It's not always the last layer/on a last layer step. However, I'd've voted for AUL instead of AUF.


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## Kenneth (Aug 7, 2008)

Yeah, you are right, but before PLL it is always the last layer =)

Edit: Hmm, it's relative, maybe it is the F2L that is adjusted (d turns) after all???

AF2L


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## dvtpgm (Aug 8, 2008)

For me, once I finish the OLL, I simply execute the PLL case algorithm, then do AUF. I still think it's faster for me. By observing the colors of the cubies, it's very easy to determine which kind of AUF you need after the PLL (either U, U' or U2).


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## Hadley4000 (Aug 8, 2008)

I do AUF on all PLL except for Y.


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## Lt-UnReaL (Aug 8, 2008)

dvtpgm said:


> For me, once I finish the OLL, I simply execute the PLL case algorithm, then do AUF. I still think it's faster for me. By observing the colors of the cubies, it's very easy to determine which kind of AUF you need after the PLL (either U, U' or U2).



I always get the V and A mixed up, though.


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## rjohnson_8ball (Aug 14, 2008)

rjohnson_8ball said:


> I rotate the cube for a couple reasons. (1) Because I am not an expert, I like to pay attention to visual cues as I perform the algorithm. If the up face does not match the sides the way I am accustomed, it might throw me off. Yes, I can do all my PLLs without looking, but after a few beers in a bar the visual cues can help. (2) If I begin with AUF, then I might have a delay at the end, trying to remember how (or see how) to adjust the up face back. If I just stick to my algorithm, it finishes correctly, with no thinking.
> 
> I suppose an expert would save time using AUFs rather than rotating the cube, but I am no expert.



I am not so sure I was clear. I actually do both. I adjust the U face to match up with the sides to recognize the PLL, but I also rotate the cube so I can begin with that PLL in my standard orientation. I was thinking some people might be able to recognize the PLL right away, and AUF for their standard orientation to begin that PLL, without needing to rotate the bottom 2 layers. (But they might need an AUF at the end.)


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## 54stickers (Nov 10, 2009)

*Aligning Top layer before or after Executing PLL?*

I have been cubing for a while and whenever I get to PLL I have a little bit of trouble aligning the top layer so when I finish the execution it is in the solved state.
I was wondering if it wold be better just to Recognize, Execute, and then Rotate the top layer, Or should I just do what I have been doing and just practice it a lot?

Thanks!


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## 4Chan (Nov 10, 2009)

It depends on the algorithm really.
Practicing and finding out your personal preferences sounds best.

Try this:
http://www.speedsolving.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5569


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## Edward (Nov 10, 2009)

Recognize,execute,top layer.
That's what I do.


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## 54stickers (Nov 10, 2009)

Sounds good  thanks!


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## linkmaster03 (Nov 10, 2009)

I adjust the top layer before I execute the PLL. It really helps a lot for me to match up blocks with the first two layers so I can recognize the case.


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## Cyrus C. (Nov 11, 2009)

I move the U layer until it's in the position for the case, so I usually align after.


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## Edmund (Nov 11, 2009)

I normally just twist til its where I execute without rotating. I do, however, often rotate on G-perms.


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## 54stickers (Nov 11, 2009)

Thanks for the tips! Ill be trying them out!


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## Forte (Nov 11, 2009)

I always pre-AUF if the cube doesn't end in it's original orientation after PLL.


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## Sa967St (Nov 11, 2009)

I usually align the top layer before executing the PLL alg, but depending on the case I might do it at the end if its not too awkward.


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## Inf3rn0 (Nov 11, 2009)

I usally align the top layer after i have completed the PLL.


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## rubiknewbie (Nov 11, 2009)

I rotate the top layer before executing PLL, not because I need to recognise but because I can only execute from a certain angle. I used to cube rotate to achieve that that is silly :fp.

Then I align it after execution.


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## JLarsen (Nov 11, 2009)

Well optimally, this is what you should do;

If the PLL is correctly AUF'ed (Adjustment of U Face) as we refer to it, then you should rotate. This is because you should be able to rotate the cube once faster than you could do say, a U2, the alg, followed by a U2. However if the alg isn't aufed properly, then just auf until it's at the position to apply the alg, and then align it after. 

Of course if you suck at rotations, and you can do two turns faster than a rotation, then this little theory doesn't apply. Someone should time their execution of U2 t perm U2, as opposed to y2 T perm. I would but I wouldn't want to disrupt the family. My cube is so loud.


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## rubiknewbie (Nov 11, 2009)

What you said makes sense.

I am really a newbie and is 2 steps behind: I have not even figured out what is the correctly aligned position that does not need AUF :fp, except for U perm. It's about time I look through all the PLLs and determine that.


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## Zubon (Nov 11, 2009)

Because after you finish the PLL, all you have to do is slam the cube down, I have tweaked my PLLs to make them the fastest for me which means that sometimes the last layer finishes up on the down or back face.

This makes it difficult to do a final adjustment of the last layer so I usually adjust the U face before the PLL.

But I have one exception. That is with the G-Perms. 

If I see the headlights first, I align them on the left and find the block to find out which G-Perm it is. Then I add a U or U' to the PLL automatically without having to look at the last layer again.

If I see the block first, I align it with the F2L and then choose which G-Perm to do depending on the position of the headlights. No U or U' needed.


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## eastamazonantidote (Nov 11, 2009)

If it's an edge or corner perm, I AUF first as I can perform any of those from any angle at basically the same speed.

Otherwise, it can get awkward to AUF first. I don't like cube rotations, so I line up case, perform case, AUF. Some cases are a pain in the neck to AUF after the alg, though, like my Gd, Ga, F, V, Aa, and Ab. Still, I think it's faster to AUF after the alg. Usually you know what rotation is needed at the end, so AUF just becomes part of the alg.


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## cmhardw (Nov 11, 2009)

Most of the time I pre-AUF. I try to always include the AUF in such a way as to minimize turns.

For example, my R alg is the standard: R' U2 R U2 R' F R U R' U' R' F' R2 *U'*

However during a solve I try to pre-AUF such that I would use the following to solve the cube:
R' U2 R U2 R' F R U R' U' R' F' R2

The only case I am very inconsistent with my ability to do this is with N perms. Also, sometimes on F perms, if my grip angle is awkward, I will just AUF after the alg.

Chris


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## hawkmp4 (Nov 11, 2009)

cmhardw said:


> Most of the time I pre-AUF. I try to always include the AUF in such a way as to minimize turns.
> 
> For example, my R alg is the standard: R' U2 R U2 R' F R U R' U' R' F' R2 *U'*
> 
> ...


I didn't ever think of that, Chris. I do that with my J perm sometimes accidentally. I should probably take a look at that for my other perms. Thanks!


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## Innocence (Nov 11, 2009)

Well, this thread got me thinking. I didn't even realize that I pre-AUF'd, until just now, when I realize that I did.

Poorly-made sentences FTW.

P.S. Chris, I admire your dedication, I really can't be bothered re-training my AUF for the sake of one turn.


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## theretardedcuber (Nov 11, 2009)

i do it after if i know how many turns i have to do
i align it before 100% of the time for g perms because it makes them easier


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## JLarsen (Nov 11, 2009)

Oh, in addition, if you are aufing after you apply the alg, you can also find way of recognizing what the auf is after the alg, before you even apply it. For instance; However many turns any of the 4 edges on an E perm are off from solved is the alignment you will have to apply after the alg is applied. 

Even trickier still; using the following alg for e perm, or one that swap the same way, you can tell if the alg is aufed to apply, and what the auf is after, quickly and efficiently.

R2 U R' U' y R U R' U' R U R' U' R U R' y' R U' R2

If the F sticker of the FLU corner, and the R sticker of the RU edge match, you can apply the alg. If they do not, simply apply a quarter turn to the U face, and they will match, and it will be aufed to apply.

For example do the alg I provided, or one that requires the same AUF, and then apply U2 y'.

The two stickers do not match, apply a quarter turn, say, U.

The alg is now aufed to apply, and the FU edge is a U away from being solved, therefore apply the alg, and and U on the end without delaying.

The recog trick I owe to Rmendbball. I used E perm because it's the alg people have the most trouble with aufing after.


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## rjohnson_8ball (Nov 11, 2009)

I usually adjust the upper face to positively recognize the PLL first, then perform it without needing to recognize an AUF at the end. The exception for me are the N perms -- I still seem to need a full second to AUF when done. (That's something for me to work on. By the way, my solve times are slow, 40 sec average.)


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## rubiknewbie (Nov 12, 2009)

eastamazonantidote said:


> If it's an edge or corner perm, I AUF first as I can perform any of those from any angle at basically the same speed.
> 
> Otherwise, it can get awkward to AUF first. I don't like cube rotations, so I line up case, perform case, AUF. Some cases are a pain in the neck to AUF after the alg, though, like my Gd, Ga, F, V, Aa, and Ab. Still, I think it's faster to AUF after the alg. Usually you know what rotation is needed at the end, so AUF just becomes part of the alg.



Why is it some perms are worse after the alg? Isn't it same for all of them?


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## DavidSanders (Nov 12, 2009)

I find I go much faster when I align afterwards, so I usually try to execute after lining up the case with U turns.


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## rubiknewbie (Nov 12, 2009)

My initial thinking about aligning after execution is similar to using empty slots in F2L. I do the hard work with the algorithms using the most convenient current position then do the adjustment after hoping to cut down move count.

Now that I think about it, it is not the same. Using empty slots in F2L cuts down move count, but doing AUF after does not cut down move count if you already know what is the correctly aligned position before. The number of turns is the same, only difference is the change in sequence of the turns.

Right now I am still better off doing AUF after, until I get familiar with the proper alignment to do before execution. Recognition before is more difficult than after.


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## hawkmp4 (Nov 12, 2009)

I thought about this some more and I realised what I do. I look at the U layer and during recognition I make a note of the pieces that will be untouched by the permutation algorithm. I use the PLL execution time to figure out which way to AUF once I'm done.


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## StachuK1992 (Nov 12, 2009)

Apart for G Perms, I always see which option of the two is best:
1-(AUF+cuberotate)+alg
2-or just (cuberotate+alg)+AUF

GPerms are just annoying to recog without AUFing before. :|


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## nck (May 25, 2010)

*auf in pll*

i realized that i suck at last layer after my 13s cross+f2l turned into a 30.11solve

just want to know do most people rotate the cube during pll or do they adjust u layer, do the pll, and then adjust again?


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## gavnasty (May 25, 2010)

What does auf mean?

I do both. Mostly rotating the cube though.


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## rahulkadukar (May 25, 2010)

gavnasty said:


> What does auf mean?
> 
> I do both. Mostly rotating the cube though.



AUF -> Adjust U Face


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## AndyRoo789 (May 25, 2010)

Depends which case.


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## nck (May 25, 2010)

for example, if you encounter t-perm +y2, how would you do it?
U2 t-perm U2 or y2 T-perm?


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## Faz (May 25, 2010)

nck said:


> for example, if you encounter t-perm +y2, how would you do it?
> U2 t-perm U2 or y2 T-perm?



Neither



Spoiler



R U R' U' R' F R2 U' R' U F' L' U L


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## Dene (May 25, 2010)

Doing AUF or a rotation is always going to cost you time, but not as much as you appear to be losing. I suggest you get better at recognising cases and executing algorithms faster.


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## Rpotts (May 25, 2010)

faz lies, his alg sloves for Tperm +U2, not a Tperm on left, or tperm+y2

L' U' L U L F' L2 U L U L' U' r U


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## Zane_C (May 25, 2010)

I've learned how to recognize and AUF for every PLL and am glad to have. Although some people may find a y2 better then U4 (AUF to apply PLL with U2, align after alg with U2)


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## riffz (May 25, 2010)

I try to AUF most times, but if it's a y or y' away then sometimes I just do that.


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## vcuber13 (May 25, 2010)

For me it depends on the PLL, if its U, A, T, Y, or J I'll AUF otherwise I rotate. (I may also rotate on them depending on how I feel at the time)


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## MiloD (May 25, 2010)

never took faz as the kind of cuber that would give out misinformation to keep his competitive edge. brutal dude, is it really that rough at the top?


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## Sa967St (May 25, 2010)

It depends on what the last few moves of the PLL are. If it ends with an F or F' I would usually do the AUF before I execute it since doing F'/F followed by a U/U'/U2 is awkward for me.


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## Hyprul 9-ty2 (May 25, 2010)

Sa967St said:


> It depends on what the last few moves of the PLL are. If it ends with an F or F' I would usually do the AUF before I execute it since doing F'/F followed by a U/U'/U2 is awkward for me.



I wrist my T perm AUF


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## ben1996123 (May 25, 2010)

I do AUF before PLL, then a cube rotation, then the PLL, and stop the timer.


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## DaijoCube (May 25, 2010)

ben1996123 said:


> I do AUF before PLL, then a cube rotation, then the PLL, and stop the timer.



I do that to. But since a week and a half I try to recognize PLL without U, U' or U2. I only do cube rotation. I will do U2 if it's y2, but I will y or y' if it's a U or U'

I would love to recognize all cases from any position.


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## jackdexter75 (May 26, 2010)

I always recognize the case even without rotating the U face to line up the case. but I hardly ever rotate the whole cube. I usually sovle the whole thing with out cube rotations. It's good practice. But sometimes I forget like when I'm in a heated battle with a friend and I'm in a rush. XP


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## Weston (May 26, 2010)

riffz said:


> I try to AUF most times, but if it's a y or y' away then sometimes I just do that.



Good to know that you don't +2 most of your solves.


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## riffz (May 26, 2010)

Weston said:


> riffz said:
> 
> 
> > I try to AUF most times, but if it's a y or y' away then sometimes I just do that.
> ...



My point was that I generally try to just use U moves but I will occasionally rotate, although never if it's a y2.


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## rubiknewbie (May 26, 2010)

I am inconsistent depending on mood. Sometimes I U2 PLL U2, sometimes I rotate the cube PLL, if I feel confident I may do T perm left hand.

I don't spend a lot of time thinking about these details cos I have way bigger problems, mostly the F2L.


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## oprah62 (Jun 17, 2010)

Anybody got that T perm on right algs(that isn;t the left handed mirror)? Couldn't find it on the wiki.
Thanks, it would save me a U2 then another U2.

EDIT: Nevermind found one. Thanks.


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## ~Phoenix Death~ (Jun 17, 2010)

Starting to U2 now. Recognition plus y_x_ is nasty right now.


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## Zbox95 (Dec 17, 2011)

*PLL execution*

Just a quick question: When you are done with OLL, how do you do? What I mean by that, is if you misalign the top layer so that you can perform the PLL algorithm and the align the top layer, thus solving the cube. 
Or, do you align the PLL and then rotate and perform the algorithm? Peronally, I use the first trick described. If you do it any other way, feel free to describe that.


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## Ickenicke (Dec 17, 2011)

Zbox95 said:


> Just a quick question: When you are done with OLL, how do you do? What I mean by that, is if you misalign the top layer so that you can perform the PLL algorithm and the align the top layer, thus solving the cube.
> Or, do you align the PLL and then rotate and perform the algorithm? Peronally, I use the first trick described. If you do it any other way, feel free to describe that.



Why bumping an one and a half year old thread?


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## Sa967St (Dec 17, 2011)

Ickenicke said:


> Why bumping an one and a half year old thread?


 
He didn't bump it. I merged his thread with this one because they're on the same topic and the older thread had some good replies.


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## TimMc (Dec 18, 2011)

Zbox95 said:


> If you do it any other way, feel free to describe that.



I'll try to prepare the top layer with a U or U'.

In some cases I'll just mirror a PLL (e.g. T permutation).

Tim.


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