# Did your puzzle get banned?



## Lucas Garron (Jan 3, 2014)

The 2014 Regulations cleaned up a lot of things about allowed puzzles, but were supposed to leave *most* people with a puzzle they still liked to use.

From the announcement:


> Thick tiles or painted/printed colors are no longer allowed instead of (thin) tiles/stickers. Stickers/tiles must be indistinguishable by feel for BLD. Permissible logos have been clarified.



I'd like to be able to tell whether people just like complaining, or if we overlooked something significant.
Based on this, a proposal to update the 2014 Regulations could have backing.

Please check with Article 3 (especially 3j and 3l) before voting.
To find out if the *change* affected you, please see the relevant diff. I don't have time, but someone would be welcome to create a detailed summary.


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## Faz (Jan 3, 2014)

As far as I know, a large proportion of the top megaminxers (sub-minute) use mf8/other tiles, and have been doing so for years.


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## Finez (Jan 3, 2014)

Some people use WitTwo's with colourful core, and black caps. Also, the new MoYu LingPo has primary color core, but outside is black. And, Fangshi 2x2, has built-in tiles. Are those banned?

EDIT : Also, my 54.6 mm Fangshi got banned.


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## Lucas Garron (Jan 3, 2014)

Finez said:


> Some people use WitTwo's with colourful core, and black caps. Also, the new MoYu LingPo has primary color core, but outside is black. And, Fangshi 2x2, has built-in tiles. Are those banned?


No.


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## KiwiCuber (Jan 3, 2014)

I use an mf8 mega with tiles but they're 1.2mm thick. So i voted for the one that said e.g. mf8


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## Erik (Jan 3, 2014)

My beloved original megaminx which I used for over 8 years and 321 official solves should now be ruined, tortured and mutilated because of this non-sense.

Also my ShengShou 4x4 which many people find extremely nice (with mefferts tiles) should also be ruined, tortured and mutilated because of this non-sense.


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## Carrot (Jan 3, 2014)

YAY! I'm not impacted by the 2014 reg, TIME TO SHINE FOR MEGAMINX!!!  (from a quick count I get that around 17 of top 30 needs to relearn megaminx, so... )


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## TimMc (Jan 3, 2014)

> 3d3) Stickers/tiles must not be thicker than 1mm.



My interpretation of this regulation is that it was created to set the maximum thickness of stickers/tiles so that additional information isn't unfairly provided to competitors. I.e. A competitor must not position stickers or tiles in such a way that it's possible to identify a the colour of a face that would otherwise be hidden on a standard puzzle with 0.3mm thick stickers.

Perhaps 3d3 could be rewritten so that it focuses on preventing the unfair advantage that one might have if he/she positioned a thick sticker or tile too close to the edge of a piece.

On the other hand, it might be very difficult to enforce a more comprehensive version of 3d3. If you look at a 3x3 front-on so that you can see the F and U faces equally then how close can the puzzle be held to your eyes before you should be allowed to see the L and R faces?

If you hold a 3x3 about 5cm away then you might see the L and R faces. 1mm or 1.5mm tiles would increase this distance and give competitors an advantage (i.e. fewer rotations required to clearly identify a piece).

Tim.


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## MaeLSTRoM (Jan 3, 2014)

I'd actually like a clarification on the overlay sticker situation.
First of all, the majority of custom stickers come as overlay stickers, that way they can be used on all puzzles. If these are totally not allowed under any circumstances, then I have no puzzles for BLD events anymore.
On my 4x4, the overlay sticker is the same size as the sticker underneath it, and the surfaces feel the same, so would that mean I can use my 4x4?
For my 3x3s and 5x5, the overlay sticker is slightly smaller than the underneath sticker, however it is very hard to feel the boundary of the sticker, and unless I try very hard to find the edge of it while blindfolded, I can't distinguish it at all. Also since the main surface of the overlay is the same as the underneath sticker, there is no quick way to tell if it is the certain centre I was looking for.

So depending on how strict the ruling is, I either can't compete in BLD with my current puzzles, I can do 4BLD only, or I can compete in all BLD events, however I think the regulations are worded in a way that doesn't reflect the actual cases that can occur with these sticker types.


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## Username (Jan 3, 2014)

MaeLSTRoM said:


> Stuff about overlay stickers



As someone who doesn't speak english perfectly, what is meant by overlay stickers?


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## kunparekh18 (Jan 3, 2014)

Username said:


> As someone who doesn't speak english perfectly, what is meant by overlay stickers?



The transparent sticker on which a logo is printed like the Dayan logo on a Zhanchi.

To OP: My fangshi has just got banned due to the f/s logo being an overlay sticker.


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## Username (Jan 3, 2014)

kunparekh18 said:


> The transparent sticker on which a logo is printed like the Dayan logo on a Zhanchi.
> 
> To OP: My fangshi has just got banned due to the f/s logo being an overlay sticker.



Oh so It's only about logos? Good, because I pretty much always remove logos


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## ~Adam~ (Jan 3, 2014)

Thankfully this won't affect me.



MaeLSTRoM said:


> If these are totally not allowed under any circumstances, then I have no puzzles for BLD events anymore.



Until you peel the logos off, right?


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## Dene (Jan 3, 2014)

cube-o-holic said:


> Until you peel the logo off, right?



Oh no no no no, you ask much too much of us, to peel off our overlay logos to make our cubes competition legal. The enormity of the effort required to do this is just too much for us to bother continuing with life. I say we all quit in protest until we can use our cubes with overlay logos again (even though the real reason is because we're too lazy to just do it).


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## ~Adam~ (Jan 3, 2014)

Dene, you broke my sarcasm detector.


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## Goosly (Jan 3, 2014)

Dene said:


> I say we all quit in protest until we can use our cubes with overlay logos again (even though the real reason is because we're too lazy to just do it).



That's not the reason. I posted this in another thread:



Goosly said:


> I just removed the logo of my Weilong that I've had for one month now. I can still - blindfolded - find the orientation I want, only *by feeling the stickers* (that are still brand new!), after tossing the cube in the air to get a random orientation. Identifying parity would even be easier. I don't understand how banning logos will prevent competitors from cheating.
> 
> (Just to clarify, I never have cheated nor intend to cheat in this way, I'm just saying it is possible and banning logos will not prevent it from being possible.)


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## ~Adam~ (Jan 3, 2014)

Goosly said:


> by feeling the stickers



Can you please elaborate?

I think you mean that you can tell by the wear on the stickers. If so then the stickers are not competition legal anyway.


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## Goosly (Jan 3, 2014)

cube-o-holic said:


> Can you please elaborate?
> 
> I think you mean that you can tell by the wear on the stickers. If so then the stickers are not competition legal anyway.



As I stated, I've had the cube for a month now and the stickers are in perfect condition. The white center sticker is about 0.5 mm off the center of the piece. I didn't apply the stickers, the cube arrived in this state.
I think it does not violate any rule under article 3.



Spoiler: PICTURE


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## stoic (Jan 3, 2014)

Megaminx aside, I don't see anything too surprising here. Obviously logos can assist during BLD so removing them for BLD events make sense. I don't think the regs have made any distinction for hardware between BLD and sighted solving before, and it's a sensible development. 
I'm much more surprised that logos on corner pieces (2x2x2) are still allowed, I've assumed since they first came out they would be banned...
Tiles on mega is a much more nuanced argument, because of their (historical?) popularity. I guess if they just came out now they would be banned, no arguments. Maybe a statement of intent for the 2015 regs and a longer phasing-out period might have suited better to allow people to adjust?


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## Erik (Jan 3, 2014)

cube-o-holic said:


> Can you please elaborate?
> 
> I think you mean that you can tell by the wear on the stickers. If so then the stickers are not competition legal anyway.



After doing 10 solves on a brand new cube, there will be some wear on the stickers. Following your logic you would have to ban 99/100 cubes people want to use for BLD. You can not get a perfectly smooth cube (except for the multicoloured stickerless cubes which are ironically banned). There are minor flaws on every cube which a solver theoretically could use to cheat (example: an edge piece that is not perfectly molded so there is a slightly bigger gap, dents from accidentally dropping the cube on the ground, bubbles in the stickersurface due to goo-residue underneath etc etc)


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## KongShou (Jan 3, 2014)

Dene said:


> Oh no no no no, you ask much too much of us, to peel off our overlay logos to make our cubes competition legal. The enormity of the effort required to do this is just too much for us to bother continuing with life. I say we all quit in protest until we can use our cubes with overlay logos again (even though the real reason is because we're too lazy to just do it).



No no no no. Lets make a uselessly sarcastic comment about peeling off the stickers when the point of all the complaint is that you can no longer identify your own cube easily. You are asking too much of us, what do you mean that we have to check your cube before you can compete? This requires time and effort but frankly mine is volunteered which means that i can do as little as i please. I say we ban all cubes that are not the original out of box Rubik's brand because this would make my job so much easier. This extra effort needed to check overlay stickers is too much for us to bother continuing with life. (Even though the real reason is because they can no longer identify their cubes anymore.)


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## ~Adam~ (Jan 3, 2014)

Erik said:


> After doing 10 solves on a brand new cube, there will be some wear on the stickers. Following your logic you would have to ban 99/100 cubes people want to use for BLD.



I personally feel that if a sticker is distinguishable by feel to any other sticker it should be replaced for BLD.
If you drop a cube you can easily reorient it by feel otherwise.


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## Goosly (Jan 3, 2014)

cube-o-holic said:


> I personally feel that if a sticker is distinguishable by feel to any other sticker it should be replaced for BLD.
> If you drop a cube you can easily reorient it by feel otherwise.



That's my point. Simply forbidding logos from BLD does not prevent competitors from being able to orient their cubes while blindfolded. Even if all stickers were perfectly the same, one could do something on the inside of a center cap and cheat that way. Banning logos from BLD only slows the process of orienting a cube blindfolded (or tracking parity in M2) and is therefor rather useless, in my opinion.


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## kunparekh18 (Jan 3, 2014)

In my opinion the checking parity thing shouldn't be a basis for banning overlay stickers, how about OP users like me?


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## Renslay (Jan 3, 2014)

What if I losen a side, for example the white one. Then I can distinguish the white face by the feel of its turn. And it is not so obvious than an overlay sticker, but carries just as much information.


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## Leszek (Jan 3, 2014)

BEKSON, maybe prohibit the use of stickers on the cube...


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## uberCuber (Jan 3, 2014)

Yeah, if you don't want people to be able to distinguish one side from another while blindfolded, then I don't currently own a cube that meets this requirement, nor have I ever competed with one. Getting rid of logos absolutely does not solve this problem, and is apparently only serving the purpose of annoying people who use logos to be able to identify their own cubes.


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## AmazingCuber (Jan 3, 2014)

Are the Moyu logos still allowed? If not, my weisu is competition illegal, but I'm planning on replacing the stickers anyway.


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## Mollerz (Jan 3, 2014)

AmazingCuber said:


> Are the Moyu logos still allowed? If not, my weisu is competition illegal, but I'm planning on replacing the stickers anyway.



The chinese MoYu characters are an overlay. The overlay is easy to remove and that will make it legal.

OT: My mf8v1 modded megaminx is now borked because of the new regulations.


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## ScottyDoesntCube (Jan 3, 2014)

Did the ban on multicolored plastic cubes go through? My main is a mini fanghsi with primary and black caps and I remember that the rule was going to be changed but I can't find it in any of the regulations.


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## qqwref (Jan 3, 2014)

Lucas Garron said:


> I'd like to be able to tell whether people just like complaining, or if we overlooked something significant.


You say that as if your typical response is to ignore most complaints because "people just like complaining". How do you expect to make good regulations if you only care about problems that become so huge everyone gets involved?


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## antoineccantin (Jan 3, 2014)

Lots of my MBLD cubes currently have logos. Also, I have a QJ megaminx with thick tiles, although I don't use it anyway.


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## Stefan (Jan 3, 2014)

antoineccantin said:


> Lots of my MBLD cubes currently have logos.



Allowed ones or forbidden ones?


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## uberCuber (Jan 3, 2014)

Stefan said:


> Allowed ones or forbidden ones?



(Asking out of ignorance/curiosity) Are there common 3x3's that come in the box having a logo that isn't an overlay sticker (i.e. forbidden)? Just asking because every single 3x3 I have came with an overlay logo.


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## antoineccantin (Jan 3, 2014)

Stefan said:


> Allowed ones or forbidden ones?



Okay, maybe "lots" was a bit of an overstatement. 5/20 of them have forbidden logos and another 4 more have allowed ones. Another one has a logo engraved on the center piece itself, and you can feel it through the sticker (it's not really visible though), which I'm not sure is allowed or not under the new regulations.



uberCuber said:


> (Asking out of ignorance/curiosity) Are there common 3x3's that come in the box having a logo that isn't an overlay sticker (i.e. forbidden)? Just asking because every single 3x3 I have came with an overlay logo.



I have an F2, F3 and GhostHand II which come with a non-overlay logo


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## uberCuber (Jan 3, 2014)

antoineccantin said:


> I have an F2, F3 and GhostHand II which come with a non-overlay logo



Wait what, I have a GHII and it has an overlay logo :confused:


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## Yuxuibbs (Jan 3, 2014)

So for the QJ megaminx, there are a lot of engraved logos on the center cap under the center sticker and they are faintly visible if you hold it to a light. Is it legal?

You can't feel the difference between the ones with a logo and without a logo but about 5/12 of the faces have the engraved logo under the sticker (that is actually visible).


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## Yellowsnow98 (Jan 3, 2014)

Wait... 
So 2x2 logos aren't allowed.
And overlay stickers aren't allowed.

Time to go and see how many of my cubes are banned.

Edit: 7.

4 of those are mains.


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## uberCuber (Jan 3, 2014)

Yellowsnow98 said:


> Wait...
> So 2x2 logos aren't allowed.



3l1a) For Pyraminx and 2x2x2, the logo may be on any piece.


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## Goosly (Jan 3, 2014)

Yellowsnow98 said:


> And overlay stickers aren't allowed.



Only for blind. (I'm still waiting for a decent argument to ban them for blind)


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## Noahaha (Jan 3, 2014)

Goosly said:


> Only for blind. (I'm still waiting for a decent argument to ban them for blind)



There are certainly situations when an overlay sticker could help someone get a success, but only if it is the wrong size or not applied properly. It's not worrisome for 3BLD, where this kind of cheating will never result in a good time, but in the bigger BLDs, spending a few seconds to see where a certain piece is will not slow you down too much, but could be the difference between a DNF and a success.

I don't think the regulation is necessary though. Delegates are already supposed to check to make sure that stickers are not distinguishable, so why don't they just check the logos too? 9 times out of 10 an overlay logo is impossible to tell apart from any other sticker.


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## antoineccantin (Jan 3, 2014)

uberCuber said:


> Wait what, I have a GHII and it has an overlay logo :confused:



nevermind, it has an overlay logo. I guess it was just perfectly aligned so it was unnoticeable after a quick check.


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## Yellowsnow98 (Jan 3, 2014)

Goosly said:


> Only for blind. (I'm still waiting for a decent argument to ban them for blind)



Oh right.
So only my 2 2x2 mains are banned


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## Yuxuibbs (Jan 3, 2014)

ScottyDoesntCube said:


> Did the ban on multicolored plastic cubes go through? My main is a mini fanghsi with primary and black caps and I remember that the rule was going to be changed but I can't find it in any of the regulations.



The ban did not go through. They decided to not add it. (clicky)


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## uberCuber (Jan 3, 2014)

Yellowsnow98 said:


> Oh right.
> So only my 2 2x2 mains are banned



Seriously? Go back a few posts. I pointed out that 2x2 logos are NOT banned.


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## Goosly (Jan 3, 2014)

Noahaha said:


> There are certainly situations when an overlay sticker could help someone get a success, but only if it is the wrong size or not applied properly. It's not worrisome for 3BLD, where this kind of cheating will never result in a good time, but in the bigger BLDs, spending a few seconds to see where a certain piece is will not slow you down too much, but could be the difference between a DNF and a success.



I agree that for 4BLD, a logo on a center can give a certain advantage.

As for 3BLD, cubes without any logo can give just as much information about the orientation of the cube or parity in M2 as a cube with a logo (as explained by Erik, Renslay and myself on page 2 and 3 of this thread). So I don't understand why logos should be banned for 3BLD. Either add rules so a competitor cannot distinguish any piece from any other piece (which is impossible), or don't add the rule that bans logos.



Noahaha said:


> Delegates are already supposed to check to make sure that stickers are not distinguishable



The cube that I've been using for the past year has quite a bit of wear, so I could easily distinguish certain stickers (if I would want to), yet no delegate has ever said anything about it.


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## waffle=ijm (Jan 3, 2014)

I have a tiled Pyra. Sure I'm not good at pyra, but I'm not going to take this one to belt sander anytime soon.

Other than that, I just have some logo issues mainly overlays. That I can remedy easily.


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## Noahaha (Jan 3, 2014)

Goosly said:


> I agree that for 4BLD, a logo on a center can give a certain advantage.
> 
> As for 3BLD, cubes without any logo can give just as much information about the orientation of the cube or parity in M2 as a cube with a logo (as explained by Erik, Renslay and myself on page 2 and 3 of this thread). So I don't understand why logos should be banned for 3BLD. Either add rules so a competitor cannot distinguish any piece from any other piece (which is impossible), or don't add the rule that bans logos.



I totally agree. I've always thought that delegates were supposed to check cubes in order to eliminate the really obvious/terrible cubes, and I've seen cubes get rejected a few times. I think that a cube with a really poorly done overlay logo should be banned, but not one with a correctly placed one. I just don't see why this shouldn't be lumped into the things that a delegate should look at if a cube gets called into question.

EDIT:


> Puzzles must be approved by the WCA Delegate before use in the competition.



EDIT 2: 3l2 reads:


> The logo may be embossed, engraved, or consist of an overlay sticker. Exception: The logo must not be distinguishable by feel for blindfolded events *(i.e. no embossings, engravings, or overlay stickers)*.



If the part in bold were removed, then overlay logos that cannot be distinguished by feel could be allowed.


But yeah... you can still use stickers for feel if you're really sneaky.


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## Yellowsnow98 (Jan 3, 2014)

uberCuber said:


> Seriously? Go back a few posts. I pointed out that 2x2 logos are NOT banned.



In the thread about logo and sticker regulations for 2014 it says they're not allowed.


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## uberCuber (Jan 3, 2014)

Yellowsnow98 said:


> In the thread about logo and sticker regulations for 2014 it says they're not allowed.



Look for yourself. That change apparently didn't make it through.


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## Jaysammey777 (Jan 3, 2014)

Renslay said:


> What if I losen a side, for example the white one. Then I can distinguish the white face by the feel of its turn. And it is not so obvious than an overlay sticker, but carries just as much information.



I mentioned this in an earlier thread and they said it is easy to call someone out for cheating by turning a side rather than feel for a logo.

1) no rule for this
2) it's not easy to distinguish

Edit:
As well my mains aren't legal anymore, but I still have puzzles to compete


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## Yellowsnow98 (Jan 3, 2014)

uberCuber said:


> Look for yourself. That change apparently didn't make it through.



I stand corrected. 2x2 is probably the puzzle it makes the most sense to ban logos on. :fp wca


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## tomasmu (Jan 4, 2014)

I have 30 Lubix ZhanChis designated for multiblind, I now discovered that it is indeed possible to find the logo sticker if you really try, just compare the feel between regular stickers and the center stickers, the logo sticker feels a bit thicker.

It is thicker because of a transparent overlay sticker that covers the whole logo sticker, it is possible (but time consuming) to peel this off, but afterwards you have Lubix logo sticker which feels the same as the others.

Since it is possible to cheat with my cubes (rule or not) I think it's fair to remove them, but I'm not looking forward to doing this


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## Divineskulls (Jan 4, 2014)

People who have been saying that minxers can just sand down their tiles obviously don't have minxes with tiles. It takes a great deal of work/time(at least for me, I can't really speak for anyone else who's done it) to tile a minx, if it doesn't already have tiles on it. Either way, if you sand them down, they're going to look ****ty. You'll barely be able to recognize the colors.

Whoever made this decision either did not think it through, or they are out of touch with the large portion of the community that solves mega. This rule just makes things so much more complicated than they need to be, and it hurts a lot of people who have spent years practicing and getting used to tiled minxes, who now have to spend another month or two getting as fast as they were on the minx that they preferred. It's a big waste of time and energy.


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## KiwiCuber (Jan 4, 2014)

Divineskulls said:


> People who have been saying that minxers can just sand down their tiles obviously don't have minxes with tiles. It takes a great deal of work/time(at least for me, I can't really speak for anyone else who's done it) to tile a minx, if it doesn't already have tiles on it. Either way, if you sand them down, they're going to look ****ty. You'll barely be able to recognize the colors.



I finished putting tiles on my dayan about 3 weeks ago and it took me forever so i can see frustration here. Ive also only ever used tiled minxes and find it quite difficult to use a minx with stickers (especially since mf8 tiles look very differnet to stickers), i may not be fast but i might be one day


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## mardimp (Jan 5, 2014)

Hello everyone,
I'm the italian NRs holder for megaminx and I'm new on speedsolving.com.
I just read the new regulations and I think (in my modest opinion) that there are some injustices.
So many megaminxers currentlly use a megaminx with tiles and the new regulations can damage a big part of them.
I'm curious: I'd like to understand why this rule comes in now and I'm trying to understand the advantage that 0,5 mm of tile can provide in a solve. 
Can someone help me?
Why would you like to provide an advantage to people that use a different brand from other people?
Meffert's and MF8 megaminx were used for many years and by many people: why does this decision come only now?

Are the ridged megaminx permitted? Doesn't the ridges give an advantage too? According to which reason the help provided from tiles is greater than the ridges' help?
Also, if you are sure that pillowed cubes give an advantage (like tiles), why the pillowed 7x7 are permitted? Where is the difference between these two cases?
(I have nothing against pillowed 7x7, in fact I currently use a pillowed 7x7)
The rugulation says "3d3) Stickers/tiles must not be thicker than 1mm", then I have to smooth the bottom of the tiles to have all tiles less thick than 1 mm?
Maybe I'll never have an official time without tiles, and this is the only way to continue to solve megaminx in competition for me. After thousands of solves with meffert's, I can't use a puzzle big as my head.
I'm sorry to say that with all of these non sense new rules(colored cube NOT permitted in blind events, printed color NOT permitted...) you are damaging speedcubing.
I remember that the spirit of the World Cube Association is that people from all over the world HAVE FUN together in a friendly atmosphere (not in a prison where nothig is permitted).
This is a pacific post and I don't intend to insult nobody.
Thanks for reading and I hope that someone can answer my questions.
Have fun
Mariano


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## Akala (Jan 10, 2014)

Hi,

Did this :


> Puzzles must be clean, and must not have any markings, elevated pieces, [...]
> In the past, engraved/embossed parts have been allowed. This is no longer permitted.



mean that megaminx with ridges are not longer allowed ? 
If yes, it's annoying...


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## uberCuber (Jan 10, 2014)

Akala said:


> Hi,
> 
> Did this :
> 
> ...



AFAIK, they never intended to ban ridges, though I can see how "elevated pieces" in the quoted passage could be interpreted to include ridges. If they ever did ban ridges, I would stop competing in megaminx.


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## Sa967St (Jan 10, 2014)

Akala said:


> Hi,
> 
> Did this :
> 
> ...



Read the [...] part. 


> 3j) Puzzles must be clean, and must not have any markings, elevated pieces, damage, or other differences* that significantly distinguish any piece from a similar piece*.



So megaminxes with ridges don't violate 3j and are legal in competitions.


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