# OH Table Use [better poll]



## qqwref (May 11, 2010)

Spawned from an argument with Kirjava. This poll is better.

EDIT: For what it's worth, my argument is that purposefully making turns with the table is against the spirit of the one-handed event, because the whole point is that you can only make turns with the one hand, not also using other objects.


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## Kirjava (May 11, 2010)

A vote for the table is a vote for Kirjava!


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## riffz (May 11, 2010)

I do agree that using the table isn't really in the spirit but its hard to enforce unless you give people DNFs when they drop their cube...

EDIT: Scrap that, I vote no.


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## Escher (May 11, 2010)

Think of it from an outsiders perspective - watching people compete in OH, then seeing somebody rest the cube on a table to do some moves; wouldn't you just assume they were cheating?

I can see why Kir likes OH+Table though


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## Kirjava (May 11, 2010)

Escher said:


> watching people compete in OH, then seeing somebody rest the cube on a table to do some moves




How many hands are they using to do this?


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## Escher (May 11, 2010)

Kirjava said:


> Escher said:
> 
> 
> > watching people compete in OH, then seeing somebody rest the cube on a table to do some moves
> ...



One.

Doesn't disprove me though.


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## qqwref (May 11, 2010)

One hand isn't about "you can't use one of your hands", it's about "you can only use one hand".


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## Kirjava (May 11, 2010)

qqwref said:


> One hand isn't about "you can't use one of your hands", it's about "you can only use one hand".




I would argue that either could be a valid interpretation, depending on your opinion. That's not really something you can disagree with.


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## Escher (May 11, 2010)

So if you can use the table, why not...






Only one hand.


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## JBCM627 (May 11, 2010)

Kirjava said:


> qqwref said:
> 
> 
> > One hand isn't about "you can't use one of your hands", it's about "you can only use one hand".
> ...


With the latter being harder to enforce, the former is preferable from an organizational standpoint.


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## Kirjava (May 11, 2010)

Escher said:


> So if you can use the table, why not...




I lol'd.

But this is why;



regulations said:


> C1a) During the solve the competitor must only use one hand. Penalty: disqualification of the solve.
> C1b) During the solve no other body part or any object other than the surface must touch the puzzle. Penalty: disqualification of the solve.
> C1b2) If a puzzle defect occurs, and the competitor decides to repair it, then repairing must be done with one hand, use of the surface is optional. Penalty: disqualification of the solve.
> C1c) During the solve, once a competitor touches the puzzle with one hand, he must not touch the puzzle with the other hand. Penalty: disqualification of the solve.


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## DavidWoner (May 11, 2010)

Escher said:


> Think of it from an outsiders perspective - watching people compete in OH, then seeing somebody rest the cube on a table to do some moves; wouldn't you just assume they were cheating?
> 
> I can see why Kir likes OH+Table though



The "outsider's perspective" argument is the dumbest thing ever. Regardless of context, it is always a stupid argument.


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## Escher (May 11, 2010)

DavidWoner said:


> Escher said:
> 
> 
> > Think of it from an outsiders perspective - watching people compete in OH, then seeing somebody rest the cube on a table to do some moves; wouldn't you just assume they were cheating?
> ...



From an outsiders perspective, this would look like you're a meanie :3

But srs, yeah, I know. It's just fun to argue with Kir sometimes


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## Feryll (May 11, 2010)

Kirjava said:


> Escher said:
> 
> 
> > So if you can use the table, why not...
> ...



Bite the table off, keep the piece in your mouth, and turn it in your mouth like that.


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## eastamazonantidote (May 11, 2010)

If you drop your cube it shouldn't matter, otherwise it goes against the purpose of OH


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## Edmund (May 11, 2010)

I'd say no. The event is 1 handed not 1 handed + an effing table


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## waffle=ijm (May 11, 2010)

table plz. people use the table all the time to align their cubes after some turns, its not just restricted to slices.


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## marthaurion (May 11, 2010)

waffle=ijm said:


> table plz. people use the table all the time to align their cubes after some turns, its not just restricted to slices.


Here's a radical idea...use your hand to align your cube


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## incessantcheese (May 11, 2010)

this would be difficult to enforce unless you're not allowed to drop the cube. pushing the cube against the table is "turning" the sides, although it's probably less than 30 degrees of turning. if someone were to drop the cube to align it "by accident", we would start running into the same problems we had with intentional popping. 

looking to another event, solving with your feet means only the feet, where you are of course allowed to use the ground. it would be quite a different event if you were not allowed to use the ground. in my opinion, just because it's easier for most people to turn the cube without using the table + one hand doesn't mean we should disallow using the table.


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## cubesolver77 (May 11, 2010)

marthaurion said:


> waffle=ijm said:
> 
> 
> > table plz. people use the table all the time to align their cubes after some turns, its not just restricted to slices.
> ...



At the cmu spring i tried that when it was a stupid time for it and i squeezed the cube out of my hand. Then had half the center caps flew halfway across the stage and had to find and pick them all up with one hand. 

I think the table should be used to reallign but not to finish a turn that was barely started


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## waffle=ijm (May 11, 2010)

marthaurion said:


> waffle=ijm said:
> 
> 
> > table plz. people use the table all the time to align their cubes after some turns, its not just restricted to slices.
> ...



why would I waste time aligning 1 or 2 layers when I can just put it against a table and align both at the same time?


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## marthaurion (May 11, 2010)

because it kinda defeats the purpose of OH....


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## Cyrus C. (May 11, 2010)

I always think of it as solving with one hand, & only one hand, no other objects.


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## Tyjet66 (May 11, 2010)

I'd say no turns, but if I get a lock up and I cant readjust with OH, ima slam the cube on the table to realign. And I don't want to be disqualified...


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## endless_akatsuki (May 12, 2010)

if you can use the table for megaminx, why should OH be any different?


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## Johannes91 (May 12, 2010)

IMHO "[only one] hand" makes more sense than "only [one hand]". Using the floor when solving with feet or the table when doing magic isn't cheating, either.


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## Samania (May 12, 2010)

no. one handed is one handed.


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## ErikJ (May 12, 2010)

the point of one handed solving is to restrict your turning ability. having the table be ok to use sounds backwards to me.


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## waffle=ijm (May 12, 2010)

Johannes91 said:


> IMHO "[only one] hand" makes more sense than "only [one hand]". Using the floor when solving with feet or the table when doing magic isn't cheating, either.



this.



endless_akatsuki said:


> if you can use the table for megaminx, why should OH be any different?



and this.


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## Feryll (May 12, 2010)

waffle=ijm said:


> marthaurion said:
> 
> 
> > waffle=ijm said:
> ...


why would I waste time aligning 1 or 2 layers when I can just use my other hand and align both at the same time?


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## jackdexter75 (May 12, 2010)

I think that kinda ruins the purpose of using ONE HAND... not OH+Table...


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## Dene (May 12, 2010)

I vote "no". Kir can suck it amirite?


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## Zane_C (May 12, 2010)

Although I do it sometimes if I get a bad lock, I will vote "no" because it beats the purpose of solving with one hand.


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## PatrickT (May 12, 2010)

I don't see what the problem is. No one is fast at OH by using the table to turn...


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## Tim Major (May 12, 2010)

PatrickT said:


> I don't see what the problem is. No one is fast at OH by using the table to turn...



Heard of Dan Cohen? I'm trying to find a video where he uses the table a fair bit. I remember seeing it a few months ago. I voted no.

Edit: I guess the argument about foot solvers being allowed to use the ground is a fair point, and many pyraminx and megaminx solvers start turning while the puzzle is still on the ground. How would it be enforced? People want to pick up the cube and make moves fast, so often this is done before lifting the puzzle. Thinking this now, I wish I could change my vote.


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## joey (May 12, 2010)

Dan doesn't turn with the table, just align.


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## HenryJade (May 12, 2010)

C1a) During the solve the competitor must only use one hand. Penalty: disqualification of the solve.
C1b) During the solve no other body part or any object other than the surface must touch the puzzle. Penalty: disqualification of the solve.





no other body part or any object!!
no other body part or any object!!

mouth is one of our body part!!
table is an object!!


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## joey (May 12, 2010)

It does say "other than the surface".


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## incessantcheese (May 12, 2010)

actually, henry's post pointed something out to me. 
the current set of rules seems to state that you canNOT use the surface to solve. 

# C1a) During the solve the competitor *must only use one hand*. Penalty: disqualification of the solve.
# C1b) During the solve no other body part or any object other than the surface must touch the puzzle. Penalty: disqualification of the solve.

vs 

# D1b) During the inspection and solve the competitor must *only use his feet (with or without socks) and the surface.* Penalty: disqualification of the solve.
# D1c) No other body parts or other available objects must touch the puzzle. Penalty: disqualification of the solve.

looking at C1a vs D1b, it seems perfectly clear that the current set of rules does not allow using the table to aid the solve. now just to establish rules about using the surface to align to the cube...


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## whauk (May 12, 2010)

learn to do 90° + (or -) cornercutting-ability-of-your-cube moves all the time and you will never have to use the table. if you cant do it OH ist not the right thing for you.

i mean i sometimes do it too but its kinda stupid.


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## Kirjava (May 12, 2010)

incessantcheese said:


> looking at C1a vs D1b, it seems perfectly clear that the current set of rules does not allow using the table to aid the solve




Nah, you just can't read the rules.


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## riffz (May 12, 2010)

incessantcheese said:


> actually, henry's post pointed something out to me.
> the current set of rules seems to state that you canNOT use the surface to solve.
> 
> # C1a) During the solve the competitor *must only use one hand*. Penalty: disqualification of the solve.
> ...



...


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## Enter (May 12, 2010)

Escher said:


> So if you can use the table, why not...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



win :fp


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## Cyrus C. (May 12, 2010)

You guys can't make comparisons to events like megaminx. In megaminx you're just trying to solve it. In OH you're trying to solve it with just one hand.


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## Kirjava (May 12, 2010)

Cyrus C. said:


> You guys can't make comparisons to events like megaminx. In megaminx you're just trying to solve it. In OH you're trying to solve it with just one hand.




Feet.


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## Zava (May 12, 2010)

Kirjava said:


> incessantcheese said:
> 
> 
> > looking at C1a vs D1b, it seems perfectly clear that the current set of rules does not allow using the table to aid the solve
> ...



no, you don't get them right. at OH, according to rules, you can only use your hand, and you won't be punished, if the cube touches the surface = no problem if you drop your cube during a solve. 
at feet, according to rules, you can both use your feet and the surface. the lack of mentioning surface in the OH rule at the "you can use" part, but being mentioned at feet, clears it up.


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## Kirjava (May 12, 2010)

Zava said:


> Kirjava said:
> 
> 
> > incessantcheese said:
> ...




Haha. There is no question about what the rules mean, if you disagree with this you are simply wrong.


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## riffz (May 12, 2010)

Zava said:


> Kirjava said:
> 
> 
> > incessantcheese said:
> ...



The rules clearly say that you can touch the cube with one hand and the surface (table).

We aren't debating what the current rules are though, rather what they ought to be.


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## Kirjava (May 12, 2010)

riffz said:


> We aren't debating what the current rules are though, rather what they ought to be.




Actually, we arn't doing that either.


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## riffz (May 12, 2010)

Kirjava said:


> riffz said:
> 
> 
> > We aren't debating what the current rules are though, rather what they ought to be.
> ...



Go on.

EDIT: Okay, whether its in the *spirit* of OH or not. My bad. -_-


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## Carrot (May 12, 2010)

Kirjava said:


> Cyrus C. said:
> 
> 
> > You guys can't make comparisons to events like megaminx. In megaminx you're just trying to solve it. In OH you're trying to solve it with just one hand.
> ...



Feet.


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## qqwref (May 12, 2010)

incessantcheese said:


> actually, henry's post pointed something out to me.
> the current set of rules seems to state that you canNOT use the surface to solve.
> 
> # C1a) During the solve the competitor *must only use one hand*. Penalty: disqualification of the solve.
> ...



Actually I think this is a pretty good point. Obviously the regulations are not perfectly written (we've seen instances of this before) but it does look somewhat like the intent was to make people use one hand only for OH turning, and both feet and the surface only for feet turning, while still not penalizing people who let the cube touch the surface. I'm not worried about organizational difficulties because as far as I am concerned it should all be up to the judge - if they think the competitor is deliberately turning with the table, they should be penalized; otherwise it's fine.

Anyway, I'd vote to disallow the surface for turning during feet if it was proven possible to solve the cube this way. We *shouldn't* have to use the surface, but we do anyway. Feet is dumb. As far as I can tell the surface is a necessary evil, just like the paper in BLD events - optimally it shouldn't be in the rules, but we need it for our own reasons.


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## Novriil (May 12, 2010)

I have small hands and when my cube gets unaligned then it is really hard to get it back to the normal position without using the table. So in these cases it's really good. And actually you still lose time by using the table. So it should be allowed (as it is already)...


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## jms_gears1 (May 12, 2010)

qqwref said:


> incessantcheese said:
> 
> 
> > actually, henry's post pointed something out to me.
> ...


Same rules, other than Feet and OH just with OH its said in two different rules.instead of at the same time.

Feet says specifically only feet and surcace.
OH says only one hand and only surface.


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## Kirjava (May 12, 2010)

qqwref said:


> it does look somewhat like the intent was to make people use one hand only for OH turning, and both feet and the surface only for feet turning




If you look in the original thread, the intent was to allow one hand and the surface for turning.


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## ManasijV (May 12, 2010)

I voted no. It just shows how one is not in complete control over his/her cube. 
Toes do not have the dexterity which fingers have and hence there is no other way but to use the floor.
No point arguing about megaminx because the table will not help you to save more than a second, will it?


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## IamWEB (May 13, 2010)

I think that the table should only be used for fixing lockups, using it for more than quick move upon fixing the lockup is purpose-defeating for the event. Besides, you're better off learning to turn faster than to use the table to do turns.
However, if using the table was banned, I wouldn't really argue with it. Just using the table is avoidable if you practice controlling your cube better (similar to what ManasijV said above).


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## CubesOfTheWorld (May 13, 2010)

IamWEB said:


> I think that the table should only be used for fixing lockups, using it for more than quick move upon fixing the lockup is purpose-defeating for the event. Besides, you're better off learning to turn faster than to use the table to do turns.
> However, if using the table was banned, I wouldn't really argue with it. Just using the table is avoidable if you practice controlling your cube better (similar to what ManasijV said above).



EXACTLY!


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## HenryJade (May 13, 2010)

i think they must need to clear that regulation/

some people here was correct for saying " using table/surface is legal FOR popped cube but but for actual solving the cube "


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## abr71310 (May 14, 2010)

I think there should be some specific rule that disallows / allows the use of the table, so whether or not we like it it's there in stone.


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## lilkdub503 (May 14, 2010)

Well, if during the solve it can touch the surface, than I am willing to get all Hamiltonian with you guys, and say anything the rules don't say I will do.


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## speedcuber1355 (Aug 3, 2010)

PatrickT said:


> I don't see what the problem is. No one is fast at OH by using the table to turn...


 i was just about to say that


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## waffle=ijm (Aug 3, 2010)

lol dug up from the bottom of the grave.


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## Dene (Aug 3, 2010)

speedcuber1355 said:


> PatrickT said:
> 
> 
> > I don't see what the problem is. No one is fast at OH by using the table to turn...
> ...



And yet you shouldn't have.


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## nck (Aug 3, 2010)

epic bump


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