# Modding Cube (probably Zhanchi) with magnets?



## Maccoboy (Jan 4, 2013)

Hey, not sure if anyone has tried this before, i havent been able to find anything yet but,

i want to put 48 neodymium magnets inside a cube (probably a black zhanchi) so that it would turn more accurately, i know this probably wouldn't make it any easier to speed solve and would almost definitely make it competition illegal but i think it would be a really cool mod to do and a nice collection piece.

im going to make a few drawings and upload them this weekendish of what i think would work best.

just wondering if any of you have tried this or have any ideas on how to do this? my thoughts so far are to glue the magnets inside each piece and hope for the best 

also one more note, if this works i would consider selling them as a collection piece and it would be great if you could you tell me weather you would buy one and how much you would consider a reasonable price?


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## panyan (Jan 4, 2013)

sounds very interesting, id like to see the arrangements of N-S that your going to use


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## googlebleh (Jan 4, 2013)

Interesting, I had this same idea awhile back. But like you, I thought it might make the puzzle illegal so I abandoned it.

One thing to consider while doing this is how strong the magnets need to be. Neodymium is pretty strong, so while it would prevent misalignments, idk if that would make the puzzle harder to turn.

Another thing is that this idea would be most useful on big cubes because I don't think 2x2x2 and 3x3x3 need any help staying in alignment because of their incredible corner-cutting. Again, just my opinion.

I do think it's a good idea to glue the magnets inside each piece. I'm just not sure which is better: in the corners or in the edges


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## Maccoboy (Jan 4, 2013)

@googlebleh 
i was thinking the edge pieces and the center pieces, 4 on each center and 2 on each edge and as long as i dont go too strong (n52) it should be ok, plus i plan on using pretty small magnets so shouldn't be too hard to turn at all


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## Maccoboy (Jan 4, 2013)

@panyan
yeah i was a bit confused about this while trying to work this out although i managed to find someone who made an all acrylic and magnet cube and they described the polarities in they're notes, so ill probably use that as a guideline 

acrylic and magnet cube: http://www.instructables.com/id/Magnetic-Acrylic-Rubik-s-Cube/


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## Maccoboy (Jan 4, 2013)

just found these and they look like they would be perfect, 
http://compare.ebay.co.uk/like/280892396262?var=lv&ltyp=AllFixedPriceItemTypes&var=sbar&cbt=y


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## panyan (Jan 4, 2013)

I wonder if its possible to buy a DIY ZhanChi and then glue/melt the magnets to the inside of the pieces

That way when you assemble the cube the pieces wont look like theyve been modified in any way which means the cube characteristics wont change


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## Maccoboy (Jan 4, 2013)

panyan said:


> I wonder if its possible to buy a DIY ZhanChi and then glue/melt the magnets to the inside of the pieces
> 
> That way when you assemble the cube the pieces wont look like theyve been modified in any way which means the cube characteristics wont change



yeah thats exactly what im thinking, I've got a sticker-less zhanchi spare so im gonna take it apart and give it ago, should be unnoticeable from just looking at it


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## panyan (Jan 4, 2013)

Sounds really good, keep us posted with photos of how you made it

Also a video of how it turns afterwards please


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## speedpicker (Jan 4, 2013)

How about placing the magnets so they also help reduce friction? imagine an arrangement like this between an edge and centre for example:

Edge
..N.......... N..
........N........
Centre

The idea here is that the centre is repulsed equally by the two edge magnets, but to move left or right would increase repulsion (since magnets get closer) so it will remain aligned. When turning the cube, you will get this slight gradient of force required as you turn, but as soon as you exceed a certain angle, it would try to realign itself due to the effect already mentioned. The benefit of this is that all the pieces would constantly repel each other, thus reducing friction and resulting in a net effect similar to maglev trains, which have virtually no friction between rail and train. 

You could have a similar arrangement that kept corners aligned with edges, whilst keeping them separate. The only downside is that the cube would be more prone to popping due to the outward force of the magnets, but would be far less prone to lockups by virtue of the tendency of the pieces to come into contact with each other far less. I would hope for a "floaty" feel to teh cube, which Ive always wanted to try.

This is an idea I had a long time ago, but never got around to making.


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## panyan (Jan 4, 2013)

speedpicker said:


> Edge
> ..N.......... N..
> ........N........
> Centre



I cant see it offering an advantage over the current plan:

Edge
........S......
........N........
Centre


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## speedpicker (Jan 4, 2013)

Because in the current plan the magnets attract, this will necessarily increase friction between the pieces as they will be pulled toward each other. In my scheme they will repel, but the aligned position will be the point where they repel the least, thus it will want to be aligned, but friction is reduced.

Repulsion > Attraction


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## speedpicker (Jan 4, 2013)

Theoretically, with enough magnets of sufficient and balanced power placed in the cube you could reduce friction to practically zero, just air resistance, but it would still align and remain so unless turned due to the effect I outlined.


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## Maccoboy (Jan 4, 2013)

thats a really good idea and im definitely gonna give it a go, although because the center pieces are pretty small there is very limited space inside meaning the magnets would be very close. This means that to get a layer to stay lined up perfectly it would have to be perfectly lined up otherwise it would just overshoot and stay misaligned. 

good concept though i think it just a concept


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## Maccoboy (Jan 4, 2013)

panyan said:


> Sounds really good, keep us posted with photos of how you made it
> 
> Also a video of how it turns afterwards please



definitely, will do


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## Youcuber2 (Jan 4, 2013)

Really interesting, reminds me if ball bearings in a pyraminx. That could also be another way to do it if you are looking for an accurate turning cube


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## Maccoboy (Jan 4, 2013)

Youcuber2 said:


> Really interesting, reminds me if ball bearings in a pyraminx. That could also be another way to do it if you are looking for an accurate turning cube



you know i've actually really wanted to do this for a while although its a bit too hard for me to do


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## IamWEB (Jan 4, 2013)

Despite not having my own input on furthering this idea, I wanted to note that this is a very interested idea. I'm curious to see how this works out in terms of diagrams and videos. Also, good luck!


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## jonlin (Jan 4, 2013)

googlebleh said:


> Interesting, I had this same idea awhile back. But like you, I thought it might make the puzzle illegal so I abandoned it.



This does not change the basic concept of the cube in any way, therefore it's not illegal.


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## Maccoboy (Jan 4, 2013)

jonlin said:


> This does not change the basic concept of the cube in any way, therefore it's not illegal.



thats actually a really good point, next time im at a competition ill make sure to ask


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## PeelingStickers (Jan 4, 2013)

good luck  nice idea


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## ncube (Jan 5, 2013)

I think that with individual little magnets, the cube would rotate kind of jerkily. So, what if there could be strips of magnets that go along the whole piece? I think that would create smoothest rotation. I have in mind flexible fridge magnets because one could cut those and shape them pretty easily. Another Idea is to replace the spring in the center with two neodynium ring magnets. I measured my washers, and ordered some ring magnets with the same size, but they are slightly too wide  An issue with the magnets in centers is that the screw would have to be non-magnetic, or else there would be some stickage to it. Diagram of the screw + ring magnets:

head of screw
N | N 
S | S <-ring magnet
| 
S | S <-flipped ring magnet
N | N
|

Edit: the line representing the screw got messed up somehow. It's supposed to be continuous.


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## Hermanio (Jan 5, 2013)

ncube said:


> I think that with individual little magnets, the cube would rotate kind of jerkily. So, what if there could be strips of magnets that go along the whole piece? I think that would create smoothest rotation. I have in mind flexible fridge magnets because one could cut those and shape them pretty easily. Another Idea is to replace the spring in the center with two neodynium ring magnets. I measured my washers, and ordered some ring magnets with the same size, but they are slightly too wide  An issue with the magnets in centers is that the screw would have to be non-magnetic, or else there would be some stickage to it. Diagram of the screw + ring magnets:
> 
> head of screw
> N | N
> ...



That's a great idea! I believe that there are metals which are non magnetic so this could work. This would stop the problem with the springs where they scrape the washers or plastic or anything like that.

About the main project: I believe this would be kind of hard to pull off correctly but if done well this would be AWESOME!


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## Genesis (Jan 5, 2013)

Come to think of it, is it possible to have ring shaped magnets under the washer and change the spring to a shorter one?


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## mark49152 (Jan 5, 2013)

Cool thread. I quite like the idea of non-smooth rotation where the cube prefers to settle in an aligned state. I would try putting magnets all of the same polarity in the centers and corners, with none in the edges.


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## Maccoboy (Jan 5, 2013)

mark49152 said:


> Cool thread. I quite like the idea of non-smooth rotation where the cube prefers to settle in an aligned state. I would try putting magnets all of the same polarity in the centers and corners, with none in the edges.



that wouldn't really work as you would have to have 3 magnets in each corner and 4 in each center piece in the inside corners and there isnt really room for strong enough magnets


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## mattch00 (Jan 5, 2013)

Depending on the amount of trouble it takes to get the magnets in I would say about $15-20 usd is a fair price.

EDIT:
On second thought maybe $20-35 usd.


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## TwisterTimmy (Jan 5, 2013)

Very VERY interested in seeing the results of this mod! If anyone is able to finish the mod (whether its a success or fail) do post a video! (please?)


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## PianoCube (Jan 5, 2013)

speedpicker said:


> Edge
> ..N.......... N..
> ........N........
> Centre



how about putting the magnets in the "corners" of the centers instead? (4 in each center) It should work just as good and require fewer magnets.


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## Maccoboy (Jan 5, 2013)

just ordered a black diy zhanchi, lube and the magnets, already got glue, will be making this as soon as they have arrieved and ill post a video and high res pics of the results and process


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## PeelingStickers (Jan 5, 2013)

good luck


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## Kattenvriendin (Jan 5, 2013)

I will be following that vid and all with interest!


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## ncube (Jan 5, 2013)

Darn, just noticed that flexible fridge magnets stick to each other somehow.


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## mark49152 (Jan 5, 2013)

Maccoboy said:


> that wouldn't really work as you would have to have 3 magnets in each corner and 4 in each center piece in the inside corners and there isnt really room for strong enough magnets


Well, I'm not sure what your current plan is, but my thinking was that if you use attraction between edge and center, when the displacement of the layer is much less than 45 degrees only a small component of the force would be acting to move the layer, with most of the force acting to pull the pieces tighter together and increase friction. The layers probably would not fully align.

On the other hand, if you use repulsion between centers and corners, forces would be greatest (magnets closest) at the 45 degree point decreasing friction and pushing the puzzle away from that mid-way point. As the layers approach alignment and the force weakens with increasing distance between the magnets, it is acting in the more efficient direction (tending towards parallel to movement) so you're more likely to get alignment. I would expect it to feel like there is some resistance as you turn a layer towards 45 degrees, then after you pass that point there's a kind of "snap" effect helping the layer onwards towards 90 degrees.

As for size and siting of magnets, maybe you are right. One magnet in the base of each corner (closest to the core) would probably suffice but given that there's no room to center a magnet in the center pieces, yes you would probably need four per center. How well it works would probably also depend on equal strength and accurate placement of the magnets, equal tensions on each face, good lubing, and all sorts of other things, but hey this is all experimentation anyway and who knows how well it will work 

Actually although I've never thought of magnets I have wondered before whether weighting the corners of a cube might give it a good feel.

Anyway good luck and looking forward to seeing your vid!


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## Maccoboy (Jan 5, 2013)

yeah i think its possible to do that way and as ill have 52 magnets spare all ill need is another cube to test it on, s ill probably try once i get another zhanci

also about it being weighed im also thinking of filling or partially fill parts of a zhanchi with epoxy to try to do the same thing as you were thinking 
so many mods to try lol


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## Maccoboy (Jan 18, 2013)

I have begun the process, i have 100 1mmx5mm neodymium magnets and am gluing 48 of them into the center and edge pieces of a dayan zhanchi sticker-less

This shows the strength of the magnets used, there holding up a screwdriver 
http://assets4.pinimg.com/upload/325596248029937776_1gliCSCb.jpg

This shows the placement of the magnets inside the pieces and how they are still fairly strong even through the plastic
http://assets3.pinimg.com/upload/325596248029937773_tzh8hlMv.jpg

This is how i made sure the placement of the magnet was perfect, i used another magnet on the outside of the piece to hold the other in place while the glue dried 
http://media-cache-ec4.pinterest.com/upload/325596248029937770_5P3MROxg.jpg

sorry the photos aren't that great and i tried to add them to the post without having to use links but there too big :/


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## Maccoboy (Jan 18, 2013)

im still in the process of finishing the whole cube, ill upload more pics and hopefully some video soon


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## Veerexx (Jan 18, 2013)

This sounds quite interesting *Adds to followed threads*


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## panyan (Jan 18, 2013)

Maccoboy said:


> im still in the process of finishing the whole cube, ill upload more pics and hopefully some video soon



Im looking forward to it


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## Maccoboy (Jan 30, 2013)

just finished the cube, will try to make a video and post it tomorrow and hopefully some better pics too ;P

in case anyone is wondering about the polarity's what i did was all the center pieces have a magnet with N pointing outwards and all of the edge pieces have a magnet with S pointing inwards, this way the pieces will always attract to each other, even if turned around. 
This also means that inside each edge piece the magnets repel each other, not strong enough to push the edge piece apart but enough to stop them pulling to each other and possible breaking the glue over time.


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## CubeRoots (Jan 30, 2013)

Maccoboy said:


> just finished the cube, will try to make a video and post it tomorrow and hopefully some better pics too ;P
> 
> in case anyone is wondering about the polarity's what i did was all the center pieces have a magnet with N pointing outwards and all of the edge pieces have a magnet with S pointing inwards, this way the pieces will always attract to each other, even if turned around.
> This also means that inside each edge piece the magnets repel each other, not strong enough to push the edge piece apart but enough to stop them pulling to each other and possible breaking the glue over time.



How is it at the moment?


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## Maccoboy (Jan 30, 2013)

CubeRoots said:


> How is it at the moment?



haven't turned it yet  waiting for the video so i can express my real first impressions to you guys


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## TwisterTimmy (Jan 30, 2013)

Maccoboy said:


> haven't turned it yet  waiting for the video so i can express my real first impressions to you guys



Quick Quick with the video please!! Over excited and extremely interested about the outcome!   

Good job too btw!


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## Maccoboy (Feb 1, 2013)

Video is up!

sorry the video isnt amazing quality as im using my phone and im pretty sick 

if you have any questions at all just ask they will all me answered


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## panyan (Feb 1, 2013)

Fantastic idea mate - I really commend your ingenuity

Cant wait to see v2 with the stronger magnets


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## Maccoboy (Feb 1, 2013)

panyan said:


> Fantastic idea mate - I really commend your ingenuity
> 
> Cant wait to see v2 with the stronger magnets



me either, really want this to work


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