# Creationism vs. evolution



## TobiasDaneels (May 28, 2009)

Hello to all,

I just finished watching a youtubemovie about education of little children in the US and particulary about creationism.

I don't weather a thread like this allready exists but I just wanted to know.
Are there many believers of creationism on this forum?

And please, I didn't start this thread for fights and stuff, just out of interest.


----------



## soccerking813 (May 28, 2009)

Personally I am not 100% sure exactly what I believe. Other than that, I do want to come anywhere near a thread like this.


----------



## Siraj A. (May 28, 2009)

TobiasDaneels said:


> And please, I didn't start this thread for fights and stuff, just out of interest.



You didn't start this thread for fights and "stuff," but they're going to happen anyway.


----------



## shelley (May 28, 2009)

While it's not your intention, fights will probably happen regardless.


----------



## d4m4s74 (May 28, 2009)

this is not the right place to talk about this, it will only make people hate eachother

to other members, please think HARD about the consequences before saying anything in this thread
anything you say can and will be used against you

but on topic, I'm only a militant atheist and and evolutionist when I can use it to **** off militant fundies (and only if they ask for it), otherwise I'm an apathetic agnostic (there may or may not be a god, but who cares) and a pretty nice guy
example of a way to change me into an atheistic hulk: saying Evolution is "just a theory", and ofcourse that "god hates *" stuff


----------



## James Kobel (May 28, 2009)

I was really expecting an intense flame war here when I saw the title. I'm a bit dissapointed actually.


----------



## Ellis (May 28, 2009)

Siraj A. said:


> TobiasDaneels said:
> 
> 
> > And please, I didn't start this thread for fights and stuff, just out of interest.
> ...



You're wrong, I can't believe you actually buy into that crap. MORON.


----------



## Siraj A. (May 28, 2009)

Ellis said:


> Siraj A. said:
> 
> 
> > TobiasDaneels said:
> ...



Idiot. [/Dene]


----------



## Erik (May 28, 2009)

Tobias: religion thread -> bad idea for this forum apparently :confused: the last religion thread was closed because things were getting out of hand... lets hope we learned sth from this...


----------



## d4m4s74 (May 28, 2009)

This thread will soon change from Creationism vs. Evolution to Religon thread versus no Religion thread.


----------



## Dene (May 28, 2009)

Haha this is my kind of place. Let's sit and watch as things get funny. [/SirajIsANoob]


----------



## Edmund (May 28, 2009)

o dear god, this thread better be closed in less than 24 hours. i know the guy who made this thread didn't have bad intentions. but these damn threads are creating friction in our community


----------



## Davey Boy (May 28, 2009)

I have mixed beliefs on this topic. In my opinion there is a 'higher power', not a God, that would be a 4th dimensional being. This being would appear to be a God because of its abilities to utilize the 4th dimension in order to alter events/objects in our world as we cannot comprehend. I believe in evolution, but also that perhaps the higher power i mentioned earlier manipulated the series of events in the evolutionary process to produce humans, essentially creating our species. Its still a very sketchy and rough theory, so feel free to shoot it down as much as possible so i may refine it as much as possible. Thanks!


----------



## brunson (May 28, 2009)

Whenever someone tells me they don't believe evolution I reply, "So, are you telling me that your god was too lame to create evolution? Evolution is too hard for your god?"

There is nothing about a belief in evolution that must imply that god doesn't exist.


----------



## shelley (May 28, 2009)

Whatever you believe, creationism has no place in a science classroom. Teach what you want in religion class (and give equal consideration of creation myths of other major systems of belief, of course), but don't teach that kind of irrational nonsense in a biology class.

What's next, horoscopes in astronomy class?


----------



## d4m4s74 (May 28, 2009)

brunson said:


> Whenever someone tells me they don't believe evolution I reply, "So, are you telling me that your god was too lame to create evolution? Evolution is too hard for your god?"
> 
> There is nothing about a belief in evolution that must imply that god doesn't exist.


In my humble opinion Fundies only hate evolution because if genesis (one part of the bible) is proven wrong it opens the door to proving the rest wrong or right.
God can't exist without faith, and fact doesn't require faith, so proving anything about god (good or bad) can be destructive.


----------



## shelley (May 28, 2009)

Davey Boy said:


> I have mixed beliefs on this topic. In my opinion there is a 'higher power', not a God, that would be a 4th dimensional being. This being would appear to be a God because of its abilities to utilize the 4th dimension in order to alter events/objects in our world as we cannot comprehend. I believe in evolution, but also that perhaps the higher power i mentioned earlier manipulated the series of events in the evolutionary process to produce humans, essentially creating our species. Its still a very sketchy and rough theory, so feel free to shoot it down as much as possible so i may refine it as much as possible. Thanks!



How do you know it's a 4th dimensional being and not a 27.3-dimensional being?


----------



## Bryan (May 28, 2009)

brunson said:


> Whenever someone tells me they don't believe evolution I reply, "So, are you telling me that your god was too lame to create evolution? Evolution is too hard for your god?"
> 
> There is nothing about a belief in evolution that must imply that god doesn't exist.



It depends on what type of evolution you refer to. The fact that dogs in the cold climates have a bunch of fur and dogs in the desert don't? Yeah, nothing biblical conflicts with that.

The fact that people evolved from apes that evolved from simple cell-organism over a large period of time? Yeah, that conflicts with the Bible where is says God created man.


----------



## 4Chan (May 28, 2009)




----------



## Davey Boy (May 28, 2009)

shelley said:


> How do you know it's a 4th dimensional being and not a 27.3-dimensional being?



Cause there are only 10 possible dimensions, the 10th being a dot containing all possible events, series, universes, etc. but your point is well taken. It would actually be more sensible cause they would have an even higher mastery of our world and even greater ability to manipulate our evolution, skipping the trial and error part. check out this youtube video though, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JkxieS-6WuA 
[EDIT] or just watch it in the post directly above this...
It explains the dimensional possibilities and such


----------



## 4Chan (May 28, 2009)

Cubes=Life said:


>





Davey Boy said:


> shelley said:
> 
> 
> > How do you know it's a 4th dimensional being and not a 27.3-dimensional being?
> ...



Hahahaha, i beat you to it.


----------



## Mike Hughey (May 28, 2009)

shelley said:


> Whatever you believe, creationism has no place in a science classroom. Teach what you want in religion class (and give equal consideration of creation myths of other major systems of belief, of course), but don't teach that kind of irrational nonsense in a biology class.
> 
> What's next, horoscopes in astronomy class?



I knew I'd be able to find it if I searched; after all, we live in the USA. 
Horoscopes in Astronomy Class
(see the short term assignments at the end)

In fairness, it looks like it's probably just an opportunity to debunk it, but it still looks like a fair amount of work and a waste of time to me, so I don't think that totally excuses it.


----------



## Davey Boy (May 28, 2009)

Cubes=Life said:


> Hahahaha, i beat you to it.



Damn...I fail.


----------



## shelley (May 28, 2009)

Davey Boy said:


> shelley said:
> 
> 
> > How do you know it's a 4th dimensional being and not a 27.3-dimensional being?
> ...



According to our current understanding of the universe, sure. But if you're going to throw that out the window and invent new beings and concepts we don't have evidence for, why not throw in a few extra dozen dimensions while you're at it?

I know this was only your opinion and all, but your usage of "there is" implies a degree of certainty that really shouldn't be there.


----------



## IamWEB (May 28, 2009)

Why not both?

Ex: God created mankind, and from thereon they slowly evolved.



brunson said:


> Whenever someone tells me they don't believe evolution I reply, "So, are you telling me that your god was too lame to create evolution? Evolution is too hard for your god?"
> 
> There is nothing about a belief in evolution that must imply that god doesn't exist.



Saying crap like what you quoted is what gets real-life arguments started. I typically don't get involved in these type of threads, and don't really want to, but that's tempting.

Too lame to create evolution? Too hard? PLEASE tell me you say that in joking voice... unless some die-hard-Jesus-runs-my-life-nothing-else gets in your face... then it's understandable 

But that last statement, yeah that's actually true. Never thought of that, but I don't ever think of this subject much... almost never discuss it.


----------



## Dene (May 28, 2009)

Woooooooooooooooooooooooooooo


----------



## Logan (May 28, 2009)

What my problem is is that I need a logical answer for everything. Religion doesn't have that. So even though I go to church and youth group, I still don't believe in God. My logical answer for what happens when we die is that we "black out". We don't think, breath, talk, hear, remember, etc. Our brain shuts down. So for us it doesn't suck, it just..... is. What sucks is having to think this every night not knowing if you will ever wake up. That is EXTREMELY STRESSFUL!!! Especially being a 13 year old trying to get 100% in every class, freaking out when you get an A- on an assignment, because you don't want to be a dieing homeless man living in the streets. That would bring you closer to the "blacking out" at the end of your life. 


*sigh* I'm so confused and scared.


----------



## Davey Boy (May 28, 2009)

shelley said:


> According to our current understanding of the universe, sure. But if you're going to throw that out the window and invent new beings and concepts we don't have evidence for, why not throw in a few extra dozen dimensions while you're at it?
> 
> I know this was only your opinion and all, but your usage of "there is" implies a degree of certainty that really shouldn't be there.



That video bases the 10 dimensions off of the 3 we as humans are certain of (length width and height), and the 4th ('time'), which we semi-dabble in. If you wish there to be no certainty at all, then how did I make it up, implying it isn't real? If there is no certainty nothing can be made up, because that means its untrue which cannot be proven. I did not throw anything out the window (to my knowledge), there are 3rd dimensional beings, that is proof enough of a possibility of beings that exist in any dimension, including the 4th.

{EDIT}
Also, my brother turned me onto a book entitled flatland that helps show this theory, sort of. Its about us not understanding the 4th dimension, change understanding to understanding beings and it still fits soundly. Thanks for the nit picking, it helps lots.


----------



## Erik (May 28, 2009)

*sits back in a lazy chair from friends, grabs some pizza and beer enough to survive on for 2 months and enjoys the show*


----------



## JBCM627 (May 28, 2009)

Dene said:


> Woooooooooooooooooooooooooooo





Erik said:


> *sits back in a lazy chair from friends, grabs some pizza and beer enough to survive on for 2 months and enjoys the show*


----------



## Davey Boy (May 28, 2009)

Logan said:


> What my problem is is that I need a logical answer for everything. Religion doesn't have that. So even though I go to church and youth group, I still don't believe in God. My logical answer for what happens when we die is that we "black out". We don't think, breath, talk, hear, remember, etc. Our brain shuts down. So for us it doesn't suck, it just..... is. What sucks is having to think this every night not knowing if you will ever wake up. That is EXTREMELY STRESSFUL!!! Especially being a 13 year old trying to get 100% in every class, freaking out when you get an A- on an assignment, because you don't want to be a dieing homeless man living in the streets. That would bring you closer to the "blacking out" at the end of your life.
> 
> 
> *sigh* I'm so confused and scared.



I recommend you chill out, you have your whole life and a single A- at 13 years old is not a life altering thing, honestly, nor is failing high school because many years are available to recover from that. The latter is for sure a huge disadvantage though and not recommended.


----------



## 4Chan (May 28, 2009)

Davey Boy said:


> shelley said:
> 
> 
> > According to our current understanding of the universe, sure. But if you're going to throw that out the window and invent new beings and concepts we don't have evidence for, why not throw in a few extra dozen dimensions while you're at it?
> ...



Crappp, flame?

You argued with Stefan, and now Shelley?
I concur with Erik, this will make for an interesting spectacle indeed.


----------



## shelley (May 28, 2009)

My nitpick was your statement that "there is" a higher power living in the 4th dimension. While that's certainly possible, you don't know that. "There could be" or "there might be" would be a more diplomatic way to describe an opinion based on no evidence whatsoever.

Of course, all this talk of higher dimensions is off topic anyway. There's no need to invoke 4th dimensional beings to understand biological evolution.


----------



## Siraj A. (May 28, 2009)

Erik said:


> *sits back in a lazy chair from friends, grabs some pizza and beer enough to survive on for 2 months and enjoys the show*



zomgz.


----------



## PatrickJameson (May 28, 2009)

http://www.wimp.com/atheistgod/

I'll just leave this here.


----------



## DavidWoner (May 28, 2009)

shelley said:


> Davey Boy said:
> 
> 
> > shelley said:
> ...



Dude, you can't refer to a youtube video as your basis for scientific information and expect people to take you seriously.



Erik said:


> *sits back in a lazy chair from friends, grabs some pizza and beer enough to survive on for 2 months and enjoys the show*



Surely there is room for one more? Sharing is what brothers do, after all.


----------



## beingforitself (May 28, 2009)

[DISAGREES WITH OPINION AND ASSERTS DOMINANCE OF OWN VIEWPOINT, BRANDING OTHERS AS IDIOTS]


----------



## Ethan Rosen (May 28, 2009)

FUR IS MURDER
LEGALIZE WEED
DON'T TAZE ME BRO


----------



## Stefan (May 28, 2009)

I love this kind of thread. I'll tell you why in early August I think.


----------



## IamWEB (May 28, 2009)

Save me 2 slices Erik, and I'll buy the next one. I'm a minor, though, so do you have any Coke? I'll buy more when you run out.


----------



## soccerking813 (May 28, 2009)

Why do I keep coming back to look at this thread?

Oh yea, because it is so funny what some people say.


----------



## Cride5 (May 29, 2009)

I believe in the Celestial Teapot


----------



## SlaughterMelon (May 29, 2009)

This is a baaaaaaaaaaaad idea. Sure, most of the guys here are "kids," but there are a few adults, and even teens (like me) have strong opinions on this topic. I don't even want to go there. If there were more adults, I'd suggest making a "Controversial" section of the board, for debates about this, religion, and politics, but I really don't think there's a large enough user based for that.
Again, this is a baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaad idea.


----------



## shelley (May 29, 2009)

SlaughterMelon said:


> This is a baaaaaaaaaaaad idea. Sure, most of the guys here are "kids," but there are a few adults, and even teens (like me) have strong opinions on this topic. I don't even want to go there. If there were more adults, I'd suggest making a "Controversial" section of the board, for debates about this, religion, and politics, but I really don't think there's a large enough user based for that.
> Again, this is a baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaad idea.



Yeah, you probably weren't around for the massive religious debate thread, but we've been there already.


----------



## Davey Boy (May 29, 2009)

shelley said:


> My nitpick was your statement that "there is" a higher power living in the 4th dimension. While that's certainly possible, you don't know that. "There could be" or "there might be" would be a more diplomatic way to describe an opinion based on no evidence whatsoever.
> 
> Of course, all this talk of higher dimensions is off topic anyway. There's no need to invoke 4th dimensional beings to understand biological evolution.



In the original post were i said that this is my theory, theories are supposed to be stated as fact. It did get off topic, but the dimensional talk still pertains to my theory of evolution vs creationism, in a round-a-bout sort of way. I'm a believer that we evolve, but that is not to say our evolution was not manipulated from its natural course which is essentially creation. And thus far the only plausible way for that is aliens or beings that experience other dimensions as well as ours. If that makes any sense


----------



## qqwref (May 29, 2009)

Davey Boy said:


> shelley said:
> 
> 
> > How do you know it's a 4th dimensional being and not a 27.3-dimensional being?
> ...



That - and the video posted above your post - is so full of ******** I don't even know where to start if I want to criticize it.

Although there MIGHT be more dimensions than three of space and one of time, the existence of such dimensions has not been proven. You probably think there are more dimensions because of string theory and M-theory, which claim that there are 9 or 10 dimensions of space and one of time. However, string theory has run into many problems. It has not been tested in experiment, and to make matters worse there are something like 10^500 different string theories, most of which require calculations modern physicists simply can't do to even figure out if they resemble our universe. The fact is that most of the important conjectures of string theory remain unproven (even though many people believe them, including almost the entire theoretical physics community), and _string theory itself has never been tested by experiment_. It is arguably not even science.

By the way, the "flatland" analogy to thinking about a world with more than 3 spatial dimensions is sound, but remember that it means we cannot actually experience a fourth dimension. We cannot actually tell whether there are 4+ dimensions of space or not! Saying anything conclusive about a dimension that might not even exist makes you look very silly.


That was kinda off topic, so here's my opinion on evolution: do not rule it out if you are religious. Evolution has been proven to happen, at least at the microevolution scale (where different populations of an organism can develop different characteristics over thousands of generations, while still technically being the same species). If you are rational enough to understand that many parts of your holy book were not intended to be taken 100% literally, you should be able to imagine how a deity could set evolution in place in order to save himself a ton of work, while still allowing him some control over the final 'product'.


----------



## shelley (May 29, 2009)

Davey Boy said:


> In the original post were i said that this is my theory, theories are supposed to be stated as fact.



A scientific theory is viewed as a fact. Yours is not a scientific theory.



Davey Boy said:


> And thus far the only plausible way for that is aliens or beings that experience other dimensions as well as ours. If that makes any sense



If you think that's the *only* plausible way, you simply haven't read enough.


----------



## Kian (May 29, 2009)

It's a silly question to pose, really. Evolution is not a theory on the origin of life, as creationism is. Abiogenesis would the logical counterpart to creationism. Neither evolution nor creationism (in some respects) invalidates the other.


----------



## ExoCorsair (May 29, 2009)

This thread begs the question, "Did the Rubik's Cube evolve or was it created?"


----------



## Ethan Rosen (May 29, 2009)

ExoCorsair said:


> This thread begs the question, "Did the Rubik's Cube evolve or was it created?"



It evolved from the 15-puzzle of course
http://www.puzzleof15.com/erno_rubik.htm


----------



## qqwref (May 29, 2009)

ExoCorsair said:


> This thread begs the question, "Did the Rubik's Cube evolve or was it created?"



If you're trying to bring the watchmaker analogy into this, I'm going to immediately debunk it by pointing out that life is fundamentally different in that it can replicate. Since life can create itself, even the most complicated life form does not imply some even more powerful being to create it, just the existence of ancestors.


----------



## fanwuq (May 29, 2009)

ExoCorsair said:


> This thread begs the question, "Did the Rubik's Cube evolve or was it created?"



Frank Morris Created Erno Rubik.

In Soviet Russia, Evolution believes in you!


----------



## shelley (May 29, 2009)

There's another funny phrase, "believing in evolution." Nobody asks if you believe in gravity.


----------



## James Kobel (May 29, 2009)

Evolution and Creationism do contradict each other alot, but I don't think that one really can totally prove the other wrong, although they are often used as substitutes for each other. I would figure just about every athiest believes in evolution, but some theists don't believe in evolution at all. But still, evolution is even taught in Catholic High Schools so I doubt that they can really contradict each other that much.


----------



## Kian (May 29, 2009)

shelley said:


> There's another funny phrase, "believing in evolution." Nobody asks if you believe in gravity.



so i'm supposed to believe that objects fall to the ground when i drop them? what a sham.


----------



## Dene (May 29, 2009)

Lol "believing" in evolution. This thread has thus far been really boring so I'ma make it more interesting. You're an idiot if you think the theory of evolution is up for grabs as a "belief".


----------



## James Kobel (May 29, 2009)

Kian said:


> shelley said:
> 
> 
> > There's another funny phrase, "believing in evolution." Nobody asks if you believe in gravity.
> ...



Yea, and how do you explain how we can jump so high on the moon?


----------



## Musturd (May 29, 2009)

I believe that some bored computer hacker programmed the universe with rocks.
AKA: XKCD


----------



## Lord Voldemort (May 29, 2009)

Musturd said:


> I believe that some bored computer hacker programmed the universe with rocks.
> AKA: XKCD



Funny comic. 
Evolution ftw. Creationism just never made sense to me compared to evolution.


----------



## Karthik (May 29, 2009)

shelley said:


> There's another funny phrase, "believing in evolution." Nobody asks if you believe in gravity.


Well people would have if the bible had a theory of its own describing gravity. But I guess people back then just didn't care much about why bird droppings always falls down on your head.


----------



## ThatGuy (May 29, 2009)

Pastafarian. But really.
Creationism just doesn't work. Too bad if you can't see the obvious evidence of evolution is what I say. Maybe something like: god created thing TO evolve. Unfortunately for me, I don't believe in a god. IT DOESN'T MEAN I'M ATHEIST, or AGNOSTIC. I'm also bored so: actually, i better wait until this is a no religion vs. religion.


----------



## d4m4s74 (May 29, 2009)

so many pages after my last check, so little lulz, maybe it's time for a funny picture to get the flamewar started

pick one, I'll remove them when I need the webspace


pictures removed because of no chance of flamewar


----------



## Lofty (May 29, 2009)

We wonder why it gets hostile, people posting things insulting creationists so... If we could all just think with our heads and not our emotions things like this would go a lot smoother.
I definitely agree with Kian, you can't really just compare creationism and evolution you would need to compare it to abiogenisis and cosmology and evolution, so you have the start of the universe, the start of life and then how we got from that start to where we are now. 
As most of you probably know, especially from the last thread on the subject, that I'm a Christian. I don't think I'm a fundy tho, although I'm pretty sure I follow Jesus much more than fundies but thats off topic. 
Personally I just chose to be a little agnostic on the subject. My faith isn't going to burst into flames if I have to take a couple chapters of Genesis as an allegory given to a prescientific people.
I haven't studied this topic much at all so I'd get flamed if I say much more than this. Maybe I'll be able to ask some questions later and get honest answers not just flame.


----------



## d4m4s74 (May 29, 2009)

Lofty said:


> Maybe I'll be able to ask some questions later and get honest answers not just flame.


ahh
and I bought popcorn and everything!

but srsly, ask away


----------



## Dene (May 29, 2009)

ThatGuy said:


> Creationism just doesn't work. Too bad if you can't see the obvious evidence of evolution is what I say.



Firstly: Wrong. You are an idiot if you think Creationism does not work. Secondly: As it has already been pointed out, the theory of evolution and Creationism are compatible. If you mean something like "there is an evolutionary history going back millions of years" then are you really that stupid to see the obvious counter argument that the world was created with a history? If you can't see this then you should stay out of this thread.


----------



## Lofty (May 29, 2009)

d4m4s74 said:


> Lofty said:
> 
> 
> > Maybe I'll be able to ask some questions later and get honest answers not just flame.
> ...



This is where it would be good to have either a better memory or a bigger wallet because I read Language of God and Case for a Creator a year or so ago but don't really remember the details of either book at all. 
I spend a lot of my time at church where just about everyone is of course a creationist and one that I hear most often is the transitional species. Cause thinking about how many changes it takes to get from one species to another its quite a large number. A good few thousand changes. Since we have thousands of intermediate animals for every transition shouldn't we have more fossils of transition species? Yea, I know its difficult for fossils to form and all but does anyone have any information on this specific example? Say, number of transitional fossils found, how many different species, etc. At worst I have some ammo to throw at my creationist friends.
Edit:


Dene said:


> ThatGuy said:
> 
> 
> > Creationism just doesn't work. Too bad if you can't see the obvious evidence of evolution is what I say.
> ...



Win!


----------



## spdqbr (May 29, 2009)

Dene said:


> ThatGuy said:
> 
> 
> > Creationism just doesn't work. Too bad if you can't see the obvious evidence of evolution is what I say.
> ...



The problem with this "obvious argument" is that it is not falsifiable. For every argument you hear you can simply say "Well, god made it that way." and there is no way to prove you wrong. So my question becomes, why? Why would a benevolent all-powerful being go out of his way to throw us off his trail? If there is a higher power, and it gave us logic and reason, and then put things in place to deliberately mislead that same logic and reason... Well I don't think that's the kind of creator I'd _want_ to worship.
E pur si muove!


----------



## Lofty (May 29, 2009)

spdqbr said:


> Dene said:
> 
> 
> > ThatGuy said:
> ...



Whether its falsifiable or not and what it says about God isn't really part of the point Dene was making.


----------



## Dene (May 29, 2009)

Lofty said:


> spdqbr said:
> 
> 
> > Dene said:
> ...



Double Win!


----------



## soccerking813 (May 29, 2009)

spdqbr said:


> Dene said:
> 
> 
> > ThatGuy said:
> ...



Did you ever think that maybe God doesn't lead absolutely every second of our lives, and we have free choice? The way you said that made it sound like we had no control over what happens in our lives. Maybe it is not God who is causing all the problems on earth. Maybe we as humans has messed it up and don't have much longer to be here.


----------



## Jason (May 29, 2009)

I don't believe in God or any higher being, and I don't believe in creationism. I know you can't prove or disprove the existence of God, I just don't believe in it.


----------



## Lofty (May 29, 2009)

Dene said:


> Lofty said:
> 
> 
> > spdqbr said:
> ...



I'll answer you anyway, since I'm actually friends wit real creationist not the crazies you hear about in the media. 
The logic is God made Adam as a full grown man not a newborn lying on the ground, a full grown garden not just a bunch of seeds sitting on some dirt so in the same way he made the whole universe appear mature. I mean you can't blame God entirely for throwing you off in your pursuit, He did give you a book telling you how He did it...
Edit:


soccerking813 said:


> spdqbr said:
> 
> 
> > Dene said:
> ...



But now you are getting into theology and not science... I don't entirely know if this is the place for that. I'll be happy to discuss it with you in private messaging tho.


----------



## Hadley4000 (May 29, 2009)

*Gets fire proof jacket*

I personally am big on evolution myself. I think that with as much evidence as we have, it is the more logical answer.

THAT BEING SAID. I have %100 respect for anyone who follows their own faith. I have some beliefs, both with my religion(Judaism) and without that many would consider to be out there. Faith is a powerful, personal thing. I don't think it's fair for someone to be attacked based on their faith and beliefs.


----------



## spdqbr (May 29, 2009)

soccerking813 said:


> spdqbr said:
> 
> 
> > Dene said:
> ...



I never said anything about the problems we face. My point was that it seems kind of low to give us the power to reason, and then plant false evidence in the form of "the world was created with a history." I don't doubt that humans are the cause of the world's problems. I would also be willing to admit the possibility that we don't have much longer to be here, though probably not for the same reasons you have for thinking so.

@Lofty, you are correct, I have strayed dangerously from the topic at hand and I will try to get back on it with any subsequent posts.


----------



## qqwref (May 29, 2009)

Lofty said:


> d4m4s74 said:
> 
> 
> > Lofty said:
> ...



The problem is that most of those changes are invisible as far as the fossil record is concerned. A lot of them will be on the cellular level - making slightly different amounts of various proteins/enzymes, or having a better immune system, or being more intelligent, or something like that. Some will be for coloring, some will be behavioral, and so on. Since all you get is basically the bones, the only changes that the fossil record can tell you about are the physical ones.

Now, because all of the small physical changes are (typically) in the same direction, you'd see a gradual change over time, rather than discrete steps. In practice evolution is rarely as simple as saying that a group of animals become taller and immediately the rest die out - rather, the species as a whole might slowly become taller (on average) over time, because the tallest individuals are more likely to pass on their genes and the shortest are less likely. Since change is so gradual, the definition of species is fluid at best... asking for a species between a given two related ones can sometimes be like asking for a color between yellow and orange - even though you can imagine a color between there, most people would describe it as a yellowish orange or an orangish yellow, and indeed it's probably not different enough from either one that it deserves to be called a new color.

What I mean by this analogy is that when two species are already relatively similar you begin to not be able to tell the difference between things that are on the border between them. If we find a fossil that looks very similar to a species we know about, it would be much more correct (and much more likely) for the discoverer to identify it as a member of that species - even if it did belong to a population that was (on average) different from the species we're familiar with, it could also have just been a member of that species who was a bit different-looking. So, while you may be able to find transition fossils for some relatively widely separated species, if you try to fine-tune it too much you will end up finding that any intermediate creature which looks significantly different from the first fossil will look a lot like the second, and vice versa.


----------



## soccerking813 (May 29, 2009)

I actually think the world is going to end in 2012.[/BS]

But humans are just leeches on the earth, taking as much out as they can. It won't be long nefore the earth finds us and flicks us off.


----------



## Lofty (May 29, 2009)

qqwref said:


> Lofty said:
> 
> 
> > d4m4s74 said:
> ...


Ah that is true, with only the bones you don't get things like organs and blow-holes and rubbery skin and all of that bit, but even still with bones alone I'm sure you can still see more than you are making it out to be. You still have the legs going into the fins and tail and what not. 
I'm very aware that species is fluid but even so that does not explain away that in the process of flowing there will be thousands of different organisms. That is why I used the word animal in my post and not species because I knew of this fluidity but didn't really know how to phrase it. 
You gave me a lot of just very broad statements describing how evolution is supposed to work. Do you have any specifics so that we can point to very specific cases and say that this is how it has actually been shown to work in practice.


----------



## Karthik (May 29, 2009)

@Lofty: The probability of fossilization, especially that of the very early life-forms is very low. And the probability of them being found is even lower. For example, when Darwin proposed the theory of evolution, one of the strongest arguments he faced was the absence of fossils from the pre-cambrian era (older than 500 million years). But very few rare fossils from that period have been found since then. 

As for higher organisms, as you mentioned there will be thousands of intermediate "species" between two known species evolving over very long periods of time(even from a geological point of view). The possibility of finding most, if not all of these fossils is almost zero.


----------



## Lofty (May 29, 2009)

Karthik said:


> @Lofty: The probability of fossilization, especially that of the very early life-forms is very low. And the probability of them being found is even lower. For example, when Darwin proposed the theory of evolution, one of the strongest arguments he faced was the absence of fossils from the pre-cambrian era (older than 500 million years). But very few rare fossils from that period have been found since then.
> 
> As for higher organisms, as you mentioned there will be thousands of intermediate "species" between two known species evolving over very long periods of time(even from a geological point of view). The possibility of finding most, if not all of these fossils is almost zero.



I'm aware of these facts. My question is for actual numbers. The original situation was between land and sea mammals. Im not talking about finding most or even all of the species, obviously thats not going to happen. But when we are dealing with thousands even a few percent can be a good handful of fossils, 25 or 50 "species" found.


----------



## Karthik (May 29, 2009)

Ah, Ok. There are quite a few convincing examples.
You must also be very well aware of the classic  Archaeopteryx which is considered as one of the prominent "missing links" between dinosaurs and birds.

Here is another example I found after a quick search: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_transitional_fossils

Many more transition examples here: http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CC/CC200.html


----------



## Sin-H (May 29, 2009)

qqwref said:


> Davey Boy said:
> 
> 
> > shelley said:
> ...



totally word! 
but: it is sad, but true that string theory and loop quantum gravity are, though impossible to be proven at the moment, the only quantum gravity stuff theoretical physicists have right now. We are in a big crisis 
for example, theoretical physicists exaggerate the density of energy of the dark materia by the factor 10^123 

and, btw: you know, we can build our own universe and be God there  we just have to find a way to press 10^91 kgs of mass into a volume which is about as big as a cube of sugar and inflation will take its course 

b2t: I am European, so I kinda believe in Evolution rather than Creation. oh well, I believe in some kind of creation, but not in the 6-day-work-1-day-off-stuff. but I do believe in a godlike individuum or energy.
and I don't think that the bible should be taken literally either.


----------



## Lofty (May 29, 2009)

Thanks those links are more what I was looking for. I was just trying to avoid statements that sound nice but really have no meaning or backing. Like broad statements about evolution can sound good but we need stuff like this to give it some backing. 
Do you know how exhaustive these lists are? It seems they have around 8-10 for the classic gaps, land to sea mammals, dinosaurs to bird etc. So Basically of the thousands of different transitions we have only 8? And most of those are practically whales already.


----------



## qqwref (May 29, 2009)

Lofty said:


> And most of those are practically whales already.



See what I mean?


----------



## Karthik (May 29, 2009)

Lofty said:


> Do you know how exhaustive these lists are? It seems they havearound 8-10 for the classic gaps, land to sea mammals, dinosaurs tobird etc.


No. But I am sure a little more digging will yield more results. And 8-10 is good enough for me


----------



## JBCM627 (May 29, 2009)

qqwref said:


> That - and the video posted above your post - is so full of ********** I don't even know where to start if I want to criticize it.


To any mods reading this, why is p.i.s.s censored, but not the bold word above?



qqwref said:


> We cannot actually tell whether there are 4+ dimensions of space or not!


Saying this makes you look pretty silly, too.



Sin-H said:


> for example, theoretical physicists exaggerate the density of energy of the dark materia by the factor 10^123


By this, I assume you mean particle physics has miscalculated the cosmological constant by that much.


Oh yeah, one more thing... the world is actually flat.


----------



## DAE_JA_VOO (May 29, 2009)

I'm not going to bother getting involved in any debating, I'm just going to state which team I bat for. 

I'm a Christian, and as such, I believe in creation. I believe that God created us.


----------



## Sin-H (May 29, 2009)

JBCM627 said:


> Sin-H said:
> 
> 
> > for example, theoretical physicists exaggerate the density of energy of the dark materia by the factor 10^123
> ...


yes. But all I know about physics are things which I have learned in German, so I am not really experienced in explaining things in English 
but this leads to the situation that the cosmological constant IS exaggerated if you calculate it.


----------



## d4m4s74 (May 29, 2009)

DAE_JA_VOO said:


> I'm not going to bother getting involved in any debating, I'm just going to state which team I bat for.
> 
> I'm a Christian, and as such, I believe in creation. I believe that God created us.


the question, in what way?
do you believe in the story from the bible, your own story, combination big bang>biogenesis>evolution/ID, a combination of all of those


----------



## TobiasDaneels (May 29, 2009)

I see now that it was too dangerous to start this thread.
For that I apologize. I wasn't aware that religious threads are almost always closed due to fights and suchs. 
I just wanted to have an idea wether there are many people believing creationism for an article I'm preparing. You can call it "pre-writing" investigation. Sorry for the trouble.


----------



## d4m4s74 (May 29, 2009)

TobiasDaneels said:


> I see now that it was too dangerous to start this thread.
> For that I apologize. I wasn't aware that religious threads are almost always closed due to fights and suchs.
> I just wanted to have an idea wether there are many people believing creationism for an article I'm preparing. You can call it "pre-writing" investigation. Sorry for the trouble.


the "flamewars" in this thread are still lukewarm, as soon as things start burning down you'll see a close


----------



## Erik (May 29, 2009)

Vault312 said:


> Surely there is room for one more? Sharing is what brothers do, after all.



Sure  

@ IamWEB: oki, but there is no more lazy-friend-chairs sadly, coke is no problem though. If you bring your own chair. 

To add something to argue about: 'darwin was wrong' 
Read here why: http://www.newsweek.com/id/180103


----------



## d4m4s74 (May 29, 2009)

Erik said:


> To add something to argue about: 'darwin was wrong'
> Read here why: http://www.newsweek.com/id/180103



Damn, I used to respect her
Epigenetics anyone?


I've got more proof darwin was wrong

full text from motivational:


"This is in response to the letter of Feb. 28. Let me just say that I have proof that evolution does not work and should not be mentioned in public schools.

"First proof is that last year I planted some plants in my garden. Now, the package on the seeds said tomato, but I had faith in this evolution theory that you speak of and knew they would evolve into watermelons. Well, to my dismay, they were just common old red tomatoes. You would not believe how upset I was.

"Last night I looked at my children and thought, what a wonderful thing has evolved out of the two pet fish I have. No, wait, I still have my pet fish and two of the greatest gifts God would send someone like myself that I call my children. In fact, I looked up my family tree and traced it back over 200 years and could not find anyone who ever had fins or scales.

"If you want to teach your family that they evolved, then that is your right, but please don't confuse facts with some theory you subscribe to. I do not know know how children are born and how everything is in perfect place in the body, but I am pretty sure chance had nothing to do with it.

"One day when I die, I will be sure to ask the Marker of the heavens and everything under them how He does it, and I will teach my children that all on this Earth is from God - not some fish that decided to climb out of the water and decided to be a human."
- Anthony Tester, Knoxville



semi-offtopic, someone turn on the airconditioning


----------



## DcF1337 (May 29, 2009)

That letter sure was a joke, but I'm not sure if that proves anything. Maybe except that some theists are totally clueless about science.

Still, laughing at someone's stupidity doesn't help any of us in this discussion (is it a discussion, or just an excuse to mock/insult each other?). I'm sure most of us here are intelligent.


----------



## deco122392 (May 29, 2009)

Well here is were i stand on the whole creation vs. evolution thing.

First of id like to give you some background. I am 16 and I am catholic.
Like all Christians, i was brought up to believe that Jesus Christ was and is our savior.

That being said, I will not discuss the "divinity of Jesus Christ".
I will discuss Creation vs. evolution.

I do see and believe in evolution. There is overwhelming evidence of it and it does make logical scene to me(an many others im sure).

I do also believe that there is something out there. im not sure if it is a god. im not sure what it is, im not sure its even a conscious entity.

But I have yet to understand how life, that "spark", started and how it continues.

How the body's of plants and animals along with all other "living" things can live and grow then eventually die.

This is a simple explanation of what I believe and i am willing to elaborate on parts of it if you wish to discuss them weather it be via pm or over this thread.

Many thanks for your time -Damian


----------



## d4m4s74 (May 29, 2009)

I have made multiple posts in this thread but I haven't even said much about the original topic

as I already said though, I'm agnostic, and believe in evolution, but untill there's a defenite theory on abiogenesis (there are hypotheses, but no theory yet) I concider the scientific hypotheses and "goddidit" equally valid. though I kinda lean to the Oparin-Haldane hypothesis (primordial soup), but only because I grew up learning that


----------



## Dene (May 29, 2009)

Erik said:


> To add something to argue about: 'darwin was wrong'
> Read here why: http://www.newsweek.com/id/180103



Lol. I love how people that have absolutely no understanding of evolution can say something like "But evidence for the new Lamarckism is strong enough to say the last word on inheritance and evolution has not been written." and be taken seriously. Lamarckism just doesn't make sense. It doesn't have a place in evolution.


----------



## shelley (May 29, 2009)

d4m4s74 said:


> TobiasDaneels said:
> 
> 
> > I see now that it was too dangerous to start this thread.
> ...



Probably because most reasonable religious people accept evolution and can even see it as compatible with creationism. Only the hardcore fundamentalists who take their creation myths completely literally would disagree, and it looks like there aren't too many of those around here. If you want a real flame war, post this on a fundamentalist Christian forum.


----------



## peterbat (May 29, 2009)

Erik said:


> To add something to argue about: 'darwin was wrong'
> Read here why: http://www.newsweek.com/id/180103




...and this article says absolutely nothing in favor of creationism. It's all still genetics and molecular biology.


----------



## Lofty (May 29, 2009)

qqwref said:


> Lofty said:
> 
> 
> > And most of those are practically whales already.
> ...


Yea, my point was more that I would imagine getting specimens all throughout the flow not just a bunch from the end of it.


Karthik said:


> Lofty said:
> 
> 
> > Do you know how exhaustive these lists are? It seems they havearound 8-10 for the classic gaps, land to sea mammals, dinosaurs tobird etc.
> ...



But why are we to be satisfied with so few? We should question things more. Like what are the actual percentages for the chance something will be fossilized in the different climates and how do the fossils we have line up with that not just accept things.


----------



## qqwref (May 30, 2009)

shelley said:


> Only the hardcore fundamentalists who take their creation myths completely literally would disagree, and it looks like there aren't too many of those around here.



There's one on twistypuzzles, if it helps.


----------



## Lofty (May 30, 2009)

qqwref said:


> shelley said:
> 
> 
> > Only the hardcore fundamentalists who take their creation myths completely literally would disagree, and it looks like there aren't too many of those around here.
> ...



Hey I am trying to question some... 
I just have a Bible and a Brain...


----------



## Johannes91 (May 30, 2009)

qqwref said:


> shelley said:
> 
> 
> > Only the hardcore fundamentalists who take their creation myths completely literally would disagree, and it looks like there aren't too many of those around here.
> ...



If you mean S.Rubiks, "The requested user doesn't exist.".

Funny threads:
http://twistypuzzles.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=5967
http://twistypuzzles.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=9297


----------



## qqwref (May 30, 2009)

He got banned? Huh. Why does twistypuzzles have to suck so much


----------



## RuNeSCaPeR133 (May 30, 2009)

*nosebleeds*


----------



## Dene (May 30, 2009)

Well this has been the most boring religion thread ever.


----------



## ConnorCuber (May 30, 2009)

Dene said:


> Well this has been the most boring religion thread ever.



Yeah, needs more controversy....

ANYBODY WHO BELIEVES IN A GOD, OR DOESN'T IS WRONG!!


----------



## Lofty (May 30, 2009)

I agree! There was so much talk about how it would turn into a flame war that no one posted anything on topic... 
I tried Dene...
I need to turn more fundy... My problem is I care too much about Jesus and not enough about all the smaller stuff like gay people and evolution...


----------



## blade740 (May 30, 2009)

This thread is now a flamewar about sexism.

A woman is hit by a motorcycle. Whose fault is it?

The driver of the motorcycle. He shouldn't be riding through the kitchen


----------



## ConnorCuber (May 30, 2009)

blade740 said:


> This thread is now a flamewar about sexism.
> 
> A woman is hit by a motorcycle. Whose fault is it?
> 
> The driver of the motorcycle. He shouldn't be riding through the kitchen



Your answer is incorrect, It is always the woman's fault.


----------



## DavidWoner (May 30, 2009)

The motorcyclist, he shouldn't have been driving through the kitchen/laundry room.


----------



## ConnorCuber (May 30, 2009)

Also, after she was hit, she better have apologized and made him a sandwich!


----------



## blade740 (May 30, 2009)

ConnorCuber said:


> Also, after she was hit, she better have apologized and made him a sandwich!



I thought that was a given.

A woman is looking at a blank sheet of paper. What's she doing?

Reading her rights.


----------



## Lofty (May 30, 2009)

Vault312 said:


> The motorcyclist, he shouldn't have been driving through the kitchen/laundry room.



Win!


----------



## qqwref (May 30, 2009)

blade740 said:


> A woman is looking at a blank sheet of paper. What's she doing?



Clearly she's getting ready to write a literary masterpiece. What do you guys have against women?


----------



## blade740 (May 30, 2009)

My body.finally a flamewar


----------



## shelley (May 30, 2009)

You wish. readies flamethrower


----------



## d4m4s74 (May 30, 2009)

qqwref said:


> blade740 said:
> 
> 
> > A woman is looking at a blank sheet of paper. What's she doing?
> ...


about as much as we have against christians, not much but they're easy to make fun of


----------



## spdqbr (May 30, 2009)

shelley said:


> You wish. readies flamethrower



Depends largely on the woman. That's hot


----------



## blade740 (May 30, 2009)

shelley said:


> You wish. readies flamethrower


A man can dream can't he?readies squirt gun


----------



## DavidWoner (May 30, 2009)

spdqbr said:


> shelley said:
> 
> 
> > You wish. readies flamethrower
> ...



Or rather, how large the woman is. I will consume Eido's soul.


----------



## blade740 (May 30, 2009)

Vault312 said:


> spdqbr said:
> 
> 
> > shelley said:
> ...



Or more precisely, how large her breasts are. Also hot, david


----------



## DcF1337 (May 30, 2009)

From creationism and evolution to this...


----------



## brunson (May 30, 2009)

DcF1337 said:


> From creationism and evolution to this...


Clearly evidence that we, as a race, have *not* evolved.


----------



## shelley (May 30, 2009)

We probably weren't created in God's image, either. Is this what Jesus would do?


----------



## Tyson (May 30, 2009)

shelley said:


> We probably weren't created in God's image, either. Is this what Jesus would do?



I can turn wine into water?


----------



## qqwref (May 30, 2009)

brunson said:


> DcF1337 said:
> 
> 
> > From creationism and evolution to this...
> ...



Isn't not understanding evolution just greeeeeeat?


----------



## (X) (May 30, 2009)

_And God made man in his image, in the image of God he made him: male and female he made them._ -The Bible


----------



## Poke (May 31, 2009)

I'd thing the being would be 8th dimensional. Controlling only possibilities in our universe. (I think this is 8... been a while since I read about this.)


----------



## soccerking813 (May 31, 2009)

I don't believe in dimensions higher than the 3rd. And I believe that God is not actually a person who lives in a certain place. He is a being that lives all around us and influences our lives at times.


----------



## tim (May 31, 2009)

soccerking813 said:


> He is a being that lives all around us and influences our lives at times.



Wow, that scares me.


----------



## SlapShot (May 31, 2009)

TobiasDaneels said:


> I see now that it was too dangerous to start this thread.
> For that I apologize. I wasn't aware that religious threads are almost always closed due to fights and suchs.
> I just wanted to have an idea wether there are many people believing creationism for an article I'm preparing. You can call it "pre-writing" investigation. Sorry for the trouble.




I live close to Dover, PA. Some may remember the school lawsuit a few
years back when they tried to add creationism to the science books.
It really caused a ruckus in the community, with people taking both sides
of the issue (my supervisor's ex-husband started the lawsuit). Yeah, its a shame we can't all discuss issues without it getting heated.


----------



## Dene (Jun 4, 2009)

StefanPochmann said:


> I love this kind of thread. I'll tell you why in early August I think.



May I ask, now that this thread has completely died, what you were planning on telling us in August? That is unless what you intended to say was meant to be something that would have been self-evident, had this thread not turned into nothing.


----------



## Stefan (Jun 4, 2009)

Sorry, there was a reason I said August. You're very welcome to speculate, of course, maybe I'll tell you earlier then.


----------



## Dene (Jun 4, 2009)

Oooooh let's speculate! I bet he's going to write us a poem. (Go on, you know we deserve it <3 ).


----------

