# Having trouble relating to the cubing community



## Johnny (Sep 17, 2014)

I can solve a Rubik's cube and therefore I am a cuber, but I can't really relate to most people who share that label with me. I am gay, so the way I think about the world definitely differs from most of you. It's not anyone's fault, but I just have trouble relating to this community due to my identity being different than the majority of cubers.

Is there any way to relate better to the cubing community? How would I do it?


----------



## kunparekh18 (Sep 17, 2014)

Go to a competition, make friends and have fun there. You'll soon be able to relate!


----------



## rowan (Sep 17, 2014)

There are other gay and queer (LGBTQIA+) cubers! 

I'm queer! I can think of... three gay cubers and two other bisexual cubers off the top of my head, and I'm sure there's many more.

There's an old thread in Off-Topic called "Sexuality" it's actually a great read, most of the people here have a pretty good understanding of this kinda stuff, might help you relate to cubers better if you read through it. Just search for it in the search bar, "sexuality" should bring it up.


----------



## Cubeologist (Sep 17, 2014)

For me, not one friendship or interaction on this site has ever stemmed from having the same sexual orientation as another cuber.


----------



## Johnny (Sep 17, 2014)

I can see that, but you have to keep in mind that when you face consistent discrimination because of your sexual orientation, that's probably going to change the way you see this issue.


----------



## Cubeologist (Sep 17, 2014)

Discrimination of any kind should be reported to the moderators as soon as it happens so quick action can be taken to remove it from these forums.


----------



## Johnny (Sep 17, 2014)

People on this forum have been great. I'm talking about my everyday life.


----------



## goodatthis (Sep 17, 2014)

I found it hard to relate to other cubers as well at first, but as you get more and more involved in the community, you'll be able to relate. It's sort of like going to a new school or going to camp with people you don't know, but you'll get to know them eventually. I also think that cubing "relatable posts" are fun to look at, things like "When you are waiting for your cubes to arrive and you see the UPS truck" are always ways to relate. You'd be surprised how many things you do as a cuber that you originally thought that only you did!

Also, don't worry about sexuality here. I have not once heard any mention of bigotry of any sort here, nor have I heard any mention of sexuality, in a positive or negative way. Just remember that the only label you have here is "cuber" and maybe "nerd" (in a good way of course), if you are a nerd haha. Although sexual orientation may be a big part of your personal identification to you, we don't really identify people here in ways like that. Because if you're like 99.5% of the cubing community personality-wise (you probably are), then you are very similar to us. And even if you're a polar opposite from the personality of most cubers, you're still a cuber!

also, something more private, but I think it might help:


Spoiler



One of my best friends came out as gay several months ago (I was actually the first person he told) and he said that coming to terms with the fact that he was gay, and identifying himself as someone different than most was one of the most difficult parts of his life. I think it's important to realize that just because you're gay, it doesn't inherently define who you are. 

I hope this helped, even though I can't share from my actual own personal experience. But I also hope that you understand that some straight people, myself included, can and do try to understand and don't identify people based solely on their sexual orientation.


----------



## Johnny (Sep 17, 2014)

Thanks for the support.


----------



## Noahaha (Sep 17, 2014)

Johnny said:


> People on this forum have been great. I'm talking about my everyday life.



How many cubers do you encounter in your every day life?

Like others have said, it's great to go to a competition. Cubers are some of the most accepting people, and won't judge based on sexuality. Also, I find that that sort of thing usually doesn't even come up at competitions.


----------



## Zubon (Sep 18, 2014)

Johnny said:


> I can solve a Rubik's cube and therefore I am a cuber, but I can't really relate to most people who share that label with me. I am gay, so the way I think about the world definitely differs from most of you. It's not anyone's fault, but I just have trouble relating to this community due to my identity being different than the majority of cubers.
> 
> Is there any way to relate better to the cubing community? How would I do it?




Just like millions of other people around the world, you are a sexual minority. So pretty much any community you join, you will STILL be a sexual minority. You will just have to learn to deal with that.

I've been cubing for years and NEVER have I been asked about what things I like to do in the privacy of my bedroom. It's totally unrelated to cubing. I've never felt the urge to suddenly tell a fellow cuber what my sexuality is. Who cares!

When meeting another cuber, almost all members here love talking about cubing. It's something we all have in common. No one really cares about who you are sexually attracted to. If you like cubing you will always be welcome here.

If you have trouble relating to other people, maybe you should work on your social skills?


----------



## Kirjava (Sep 18, 2014)

Johnny said:


> I am gay, so the way I think about the world definitely differs from most of you.



I don't understand this at all. Why should it have any significant influence?


----------



## rowan (Sep 18, 2014)

Here's my perspective, I could be wrong from where OP is coming from though.

I don't think it's necessarily a requirement for someone to feel connected to cubing, but I think sometimes it's nice to have that commonality with another person. Sexuality, especially if you aren't straight, is often a point of solidarity for people. Just like how female cubers are often excited to meet other female cubers; something that may seem trivial (especially if you're in the majority group) can really shape someone's way of connecting with others. This is pretty common in cubing, people are excited to meet others from their area when they feel they are the only one, etc. 

While saying that "oh sexual orientation doesn't come up," is really well meaning; people from different backgrounds sometimes have different perspectives, it's nice to have some common ground in that area occasionally. But this varies, some gay cubers might really care and for others it could be a non-issue.


----------



## Johnny (Sep 18, 2014)

Kirjava said:


> I don't understand this at all. Why should it have any significant influence?



because being gay changes the way some people treat me. In other words, homophobia has changed the way I think of the world.


----------



## Laradoodle4 (Sep 18, 2014)

I don't think that homophobia or sexuality in general would change the way you relate to other cubers? I have never met another queer female cuber, but that doesn't mean I have trouble relating to other cubers, or the cubing community as a whole. I don't think your sexuality is a problem here.


----------



## Kirjava (Sep 18, 2014)

Johnny said:


> because being gay changes the way some people treat me. In other words, homophobia has changed the way I think of the world.



I don't mean to offend, but it seems like you're saying you have a perspective that others cannot grasp. You can observe homophobia without being gay.

Your sexuality alone doesn't change how you think.


----------



## Stefan (Sep 19, 2014)

Johnny said:


> I am gay



Nobody cares. I think you have homophobiaphobia.


----------



## rowan (Sep 19, 2014)

Stefan said:


> Nobody cares. I think you have homophobiaphobia.



A fear of discrimination and/or harassment? How irrational.


----------



## kcl (Sep 19, 2014)

rowan said:


> A fear of discrimination and/or harassment? How irrational.



A fear of discrimination and harassment when there is no real danger of it hapoening? This doesn't happen much, but I agree with Stefan on this one.


----------



## Divineskulls (Sep 19, 2014)

goodatthis said:


> I guess by nobody you mean the 8 people that posted something in this thread. Don't know about you, but that looks like some degree of "caring" to me.


Although a little blunt, and maybe harsh, I think Stefan meant something along the lines of 'Nobody cares (on the forum) that you're gay, they will accept you', rather than 'Nobody cares about you.'

To OP:
The best advice to give in this situation is really to just 'do it.' Going to a competition and talking to people is hard, especially if you're shy; it took me about 3 competitions to actually make friends. But it's really up to you if cubing for you is a solitary or social hobby.


----------



## rowan (Sep 19, 2014)

kclejeune said:


> A fear of discrimination and harassment when there is no real danger of it hapoening? This doesn't happen much, but I agree with Stefan on this one.



I can't tell if you're referring to it in terms of the cubing community or in terms of life (because clearly that changes how much I would disagree). If most of the places you go in life you experience something, worrying about it in other facets of your life isn't unreasonable; I'm actually laughing at how unbelievable I find it is that I had to articulate this. This thread got so ridiculous, why even bother offering comments that aren't advice for OP at this point? I'm going to stop derailing this thread now.


----------



## kcl (Sep 19, 2014)

rowan said:


> I can't tell if you're referring to it in terms of the cubing community or in terms of life (because clearly that changes how much I would disagree). If most of the places you go in life you experience something, worrying about it in other facets of your life isn't unreasonable; I'm actually laughing at how unbelievable I find it is that I had to articulate this. This thread got so ridiculous, why even bother offering comments that aren't advice for OP at this point? I'm going to stop derailing this thread now.



Nick said basically what I wanted to. Nobody here cares. The sooner he realizes that nobody here is going to treat him any differently, the happier he'll be.


----------



## uyneb2000 (Sep 19, 2014)

We don't care about your sexuality! It's understandable if you are worried, but don't shut yourself in. We're a tolerant group, so the only person that's stopping you from relating to the cube community is you. We cube, and the fact you are gay doesn't change anything. We all enjoy the same hobby, and have common interests.

Just relax, go out and meet new cubers, go to comps. Have fun!


----------



## Stefan (Sep 19, 2014)

goodatthis said:


> I guess by nobody you mean the 8 people that posted something in this thread. Don't know about you, but that looks like some degree of "caring" to me.



I'd say they care about him having a problem, not necessarily about him being gay. Also, I thought it's somewhat clear from my post as a whole that I meant a negative kind of care. And yes, admittedly "nobody" is an exaggeration as there probably are a few that do have a problem with it. _"I was just trying to get a point across"_ (one that Kennan and Nick explained well).

If anything, I'd say gays are treated *better* here. Because we're well aware of troubles in the "real world" and have sympathy (and some of us are gay). I suspect Johnny would've gotten less feedback if he had left out the gayness and just asked about relating to the community. Also, so much playful "acting gay" among cubers... I really believe we're a pretty gay-friendly crowd (although of course I don't see everything, and I'm not gay so I don't have first-hand experience).



rowan said:


> I can't tell if you're referring to it in terms of the cubing community or in terms of life (because clearly that changes how much I would disagree).



He said _"when there is no real danger of it hapoening"_. Do you really think he (or I) might not be aware that there is real danger of it happening "in life"? Also, Johnny in the OP made it abundantly clear that this is about the cubing community.


----------



## Ninja Storm (Sep 19, 2014)

Nobody cares if you're gay.

You're not special.

Go to competitions and be a normal person, not some attention-seeking guy on the internet.


----------



## RageCuber (Sep 19, 2014)

I agree with Stefan. Who on the forums is gonna be a jerk to him or something (Johnny)?


----------



## Kirjava (Sep 19, 2014)

Yeah, there's no reason why sexuality makes it difficult to relate to this community.

There's an assumption that we have some kind of barrier there, and that is borderline offensive.


----------



## newtonbase (Sep 20, 2014)

I joined this forum early this year and this is the first time I've seen sexuality mentioned. It's pretty rare for the opposite sex to be mentioned too which, given the number of teenage boys here, is surprising. You are more likely to suffer discrimination if you start solving with your feet. 
Just relax. This is a nice place.


----------



## Kirjava (Sep 20, 2014)

oh my god don't bring feet into this I will seriously end you


----------



## LucidCuber (Sep 20, 2014)

Johnny said:


> I am gay



OK, there was no need to even make a deal of this, but sure.



> but I just have trouble relating to this community


*This Community*? You seem to be making us all out to be homophobes based off of nothing, which is probably going to offend some people, myself included.



> due to my identity being different than the majority of cubers.


Every single cuber is in some sort of minority. Anyone who has been to a foreign competition is going to be a minority at that competition but it doesn't stop us from all interacting and having a good time.



> Is there any way to relate better to the cubing community? How would I do it?



Stop playing the victim card and intentionally trying to alienate yourself from people who would otherwise would welcome you with open arms, regardless of your sexuality.


----------



## IRNjuggle28 (Sep 22, 2014)

Kirjava said:


> Yeah, there's no reason why sexuality makes it difficult to relate to *this community.*
> 
> There's an assumption that we have some kind of barrier there, and that is borderline offensive.



You're correct about sexuality not making it difficult to relate to *this community in particular.* However, if you've experienced bullying or lack of acceptance over a widespread period of time, your social persona will reflect that regardless of whether the community you are around is accepting of you or not. You are treating social phobias as if they are logical, and as if they are a reflection of those around you. They aren't. Saying "I have trouble relating to the cubing community because of my sexuality" might be better expressed as "the social anxiety I have as a result of long term negative treatment because of my sexuality makes it difficult to relate to the cubing community." But "there's an assumption that we have some kind of barrier there, and that is borderline offensive" strikes me as a misinterpretation. His sexuality may not affect the way the cubing community relates to him. But it does affect the way he relates to everyone, and as the cubing community is a subset of "everyone," *his sexuality affects the way he relates to the cubing community.*

Johnny, there is no solution that comes from us. The way you will be accepted is by making your external personality one that people find appealing. Trial and error works. If you lack the ability to connect to us using your natural personality, and you decide that you would rather be accepted than be entirely "yourself," then the way you'll be accepted is if you figure out how to manipulate us into liking you. Become whoever society wants you to be. That may sound despicable, and that's because it is. But that's your answer. Act in ways that people will like, even if it doesn't represent who you think you really are. 

I'm not telling you that this is a objectively a good thing to do. I'm telling you that it's how to be accepted by people. Being yourself may be more valuable to you than being liked by us, and if that's the case, then you should NOT do what I suggested. It's your decision. 

One thing to NOT do is what you did in this thread. It's OK to admit vulnerabilities, but not in the way that you just did. Most people will interpret that as weak and needy, to put it bluntly. You're much less likely to drive me away by doing that than you are with someone else, since I have social anxiety disorder, and have firsthand experience with irrational social phobias. But I know from my own experience that what you did was a mistake, and will make you less connected to the community, not more. Anxiety and insecurity are contagious, and if you act that way, people who aren't that way themselves will not like you.


----------



## Kirjava (Sep 23, 2014)

IRNjuggle28 said:


> You're correct about sexuality not making it difficult to relate to *this community in particular.* However, if you've experienced bullying or lack of acceptance over a widespread period of time, your social persona will reflect that regardless of whether the community you are around is accepting of you or not. You are treating social phobias as if they are logical, and as if they are a reflection of those around you. They aren't. Saying "I have trouble relating to the cubing community because of my sexuality" might be better expressed as "the social anxiety I have as a result of long term negative treatment because of my sexuality makes it difficult to relate to the cubing community." But "there's an assumption that we have some kind of barrier there, and that is borderline offensive" strikes me as a misinterpretation. His sexuality may not affect the way the cubing community relates to him. But it does affect the way he relates to everyone, and as the cubing community is a subset of "everyone," *his sexuality affects the way he relates to the cubing community.*



The title claims he has trouble relating to the cubing community specifically. It can easily be misinterpreted as the true meaning is not obvious (if what you're saying is indeed correct).

However, this thread didn't need to be made. He didn't have to announce anything. It's pessimistic and histrionic.

He asked how to relate to us better, and we're telling him how. We don't care, and he doesn't need to assume he will have any kind of problems here.


----------



## goodatthis (Sep 23, 2014)

Just one thing I want to say to the OP, if you believe that the rest of the world sees you differently from everyone else, then you've been spending too much time on YouTube. I noticed you are fairly active in youtube and probably the most hateful, bigoted views come out of that community. Dont think that the real world is as hateful as the youtube community. It's pretty ridiculous sometimes what people will say. The sad part is, it's usually a bunch of socially awkward, often bullied teens who think they have power in anonymity by saying such hateful things. 

Not trying to repeat the old "fuq da h8ers dnt listn man" chiche, but just don't let youtube comments skew your view of reality.


----------



## kcl (Sep 23, 2014)

Also if you really don't want the topic discussed at length to avoid making you uncomfortable, it might make sense to change your profile picture to something else.


----------



## Stefan (Sep 23, 2014)

goodatthis said:


> I noticed you are fairly active in youtube and probably the most hateful, bigoted views come out of that community.



Aren't they regularly and overwhelmingly flamed and downvoted, though? That's the impression I got. I think you can also pretty easily determine whether a video about homosexuality is for or against it - if ratings are very bad or disabled, you're pretty much guaranteed that the video is against homosexuality. And if it's for it, the ratings are usually very good.


----------



## IRNjuggle28 (Sep 24, 2014)

Kirjava said:


> The title claims he has trouble relating *to the cubing community specifically*. It can easily be misinterpreted as the true meaning is not obvious (if what you're saying is indeed correct).


The OP says "I can solve a Rubik's cube and therefore I am a cuber, but I can't really relate to most people who share that label with me. *I am gay, so the way I think about the world definitely differs from most of you.* It's not anyone's fault, but I just have trouble relating to this community due to my identity being different than the majority of cubers." To me, the bolded part implies that he would have trouble around anyone besides the LGBT community, and that it is NOT the cubing community specifically. I don't have much doubt that he has some trouble elsewhere. He just didn't expect help from the community community with anything besides relating to the cubing community. Yes, his statement is ambiguous. But the way he acts makes me assume it isn't just here.


Kirjava said:


> However, this thread didn't need to be made. He didn't have to announce anything. It's pessimistic and histrionic.


Yeah. That's fair.


Kirjava said:


> He asked how to relate to us better, and we're telling him how. We don't care, and *he doesn't need to assume he will have any kind of problems here.*


 He isn't assuming that he will have a problem, he's stating it as a fact that he does have one. This transcends "assumption." He feels unable to connect to the community, and sees it as problematic. Ergo, he has a problem. If you had said "he shouldn't assume that he will have problems because of his sexuality," or even "he shouldn't assume that people here have any ill will towards him," I'd agree with you.

I do agree with you that he's overestimating how much different being gay makes him.


----------



## Kirjava (Sep 24, 2014)

IRNjuggle28 said:


> He isn't assuming that he will have a problem, he's stating it as a fact that he does have one.



Which is even worse, because there is no reason for him to.


----------



## IRNjuggle28 (Sep 24, 2014)

Kirjava said:


> Which is even worse, because there is no reason for him to.


His reason for feeling like he has a problem seems to mostly stem from anxiety and insecurity. Neither of those are particularly rational. Giving a logical explanation for why a fear that's not logic based is irrational is not helpful to him at all. Does it even matter if there's a reason for it or not? It doesn't affect the way he deals with it.


----------



## Kirjava (Sep 24, 2014)

So you're saying he has mental issues?


----------



## IRNjuggle28 (Sep 24, 2014)

Kirjava said:


> So you're saying he has mental issues?


"mental issues" has the connotation of a person who's crazy and unhinged. No, I do not think of him as that. Is that your perception of people who are insecure?

If you're asking if he has mental issues in the most literal sense possible, then sure. More specifically, I think he has some sort of social anxiety. I have social anxiety disorder myself. I know a lot of people who have social anxiety. The way he acts is so, so familiar. Yes, I see that in him. I wouldn't call it a mental issue, though. If his anxiety is a direct result of how he's been treated in the past, I wouldn't think of it as "something wrong with him."


----------



## Kirjava (Sep 24, 2014)

So what? All that needs to happen is that we tell him we have no problem and accept him. What more to this than that is there?


----------



## rowan (Sep 24, 2014)

Having social anxiety doesn't make you qualified to diagnose someone with it.


----------



## IRNjuggle28 (Sep 24, 2014)

rowan said:


> Having social anxiety doesn't make you qualified to diagnose someone with it.


I'm unqualified to give him a label like "social anxiety disorder," which is a diagnosis. However, I don't think any qualifications are required to say that he seems socially anxious in a way that describes a limited set of behaviors. It's a very general term. Do you have to be a psychiatrist to notice things about people? It's not that subtle. He thinks he's more different and more separated from the community than the rest of us perceive him to be. Nearly everyone who replied to this thread noticed that. That's a very common trait in socially anxious people; feeling like you're sticking out in a negative way more than you actually are. Noticing what I did about him isn't much more complicated psychologically than noticing that a person is talkative, or quiet, or funny, or something like that. You don't have to be more than a normal person to do what I did; you don't need a qualification. Having social anxiety that is NOT the result of a mental disorder, but is just the result of your surroundings, or how you've been treated, is something that most people struggle with sometime in their lives. That's all I was referring to. 

Kir, I haven't thought of a way to reply to your post that conveys all of what I mean, but no, that's not all there is to it at all. By comparison, think of someone with a fear of public speaking. Even if the audience they're speaking for assures them that it's no problem if they mess up, they're still going to be afraid of everything going wrong. The same thing is true of people with social anxiety. Just because the person you're talking to says that they accept you doesn't mean that you won't do something so repellent that the person has no choice but to hate you. It's very irrational, and people who are like that are their own harshest critics regardless of whether or not the people around them noticed anything at all.

Simply telling someone that you accept them often barely scratches the surface of actually making them feel accepted. Plus, your earlier statements that he was being pessimistic and histrionic, combined with half a dozen statements from others that "I don't care about your sexuality" throughout this thread, might speak louder to him about whether or not he is accepted than your most recent words.

Rowan, I'm not assuming that all or any of these things are definitely true about Johnny. But they are possibilities, and I'd rather consider these things and later find out that I was wrong than have the only "help" he gets from this thread be "you're not as different as you think, we don't care about your sexuality, and you're being pessimistic. Oh and by the way, we accept you." I'm not confident I interpreted Johnny correctly, but if I share my thoughts on what I think might be the problems, and possible solutions for those problems, it's food for thought for him regardless of whether I interpreted him 100% correctly or not. It's also more interactive with him than being as dismissive of his concerns as most of the people in this thread have been, and that's important since his initial concern was lack of interaction with the community.


----------



## Kirjava (Sep 24, 2014)

IRNjuggle28 said:


> Kir, I haven't thought of a way to reply to your post that conveys all of what I mean, but no, that's not all there is to it at all. By comparison, think of someone with a fear of public speaking. Even if the audience they're speaking for assures them that it's no problem if they mess up, they're still going to be afraid of everything going wrong. The same thing is true of people with social anxiety. Just because the person you're talking to says that they accept you doesn't mean that you won't do something so repellent that the person has no choice but to hate you. It's very irrational, and people who are like that are their own harshest critics regardless of whether or not the people around them noticed anything at all.
> 
> Simply telling someone that you accept them often barely scratches the surface of actually making them feel accepted. Plus, your earlier statements that he was being pessimistic and histrionic, combined with half a dozen statements from others that "I don't care about your sexuality" throughout this thread, might speak louder to him about whether or not he is accepted than your most recent words.



If this person is as fragile as you are making out, I don't advise him to post on the forum at all.


----------



## rowan (Sep 24, 2014)

He spoke a total of 156 words in this entire thread and got psychoanalyzed.

I think this thread took a completely ridiculous, inappropriate, and rude direction, imo. He asked for advice on relating to the cubing community and got people telling him he lacked social skills, has social anxiety, is attention seeking, is playing a victim card, and a whole other load of unnecessarily cutting comments.

He said he has trouble relating to the cubing community and gave background as to why he feels that way which for him is his sexuality. He made it clear that he is not calling the community homophobic (even though he was later accused of this) and wasn't even seeking sympathy for his sexuality. All he wanted was advice on how others find ways to relate when they feel different. Why does it matter if he wanted to mention that he was gay or not? Who cares? Why is it making everyone so uncomfortable that he mentioned it? If you truly don't care about his sexuality I'd expect that you'd not have a negative reaction to his mentioning of it.

As a side note in general: It is not unusual for people who are minorities to feel something called social exclusion. (I like sociology a lot.) This is a well documented phenomena amongst LGBT people and other groups, here's a study about LGBT youth in Europe, and not surprisingly invisibility is part of what contributes to social exclusion. So not talking about sexuality doesn't help the situation, it continues alienation in some ways. Because a lot of times, if someone doesn't clarify that they aren't straight, they are assumed to be. For some people, part of feeling included in a community is being able to talk about these things openly. 

Also, everyone's way of viewing the world *is* shaped by their identities and in turn their experiences. So it's not completely off base for some people to think that they'd relate better to other queer people, because a lot of the experiences that they face are unique to their situation. While I could learn about the way that someone in... I don't know, Texas lives, it's still not the same as being from there and having those lived experiences, there's a limit to how much of their experiences I can really understand. It's not a bad thing, it's not an offensive thing, at least for me, it's just how things are. Human communication can only do so much, but having similar lived experiences is a whole other thing.


----------



## Kirjava (Sep 24, 2014)

rowan said:


> He spoke a total of 156 words in this entire thread and got psychoanalyzed.



I love that you counted for the sake of that sentence.


----------



## Stefan (Sep 24, 2014)

rowan said:


> If you truly don't care about *his sexuality* I'd expect that you'd not have a negative reaction to *his mentioning of it*.



Why? That's different things.


----------



## rowan (Sep 24, 2014)

Stefan said:


> Why? That's different things.



You would never know he was gay unless he mentioned it; mostly because there's an assumption of heterosexuality in society (see: heternormativity and compulsory heterosexuality). This can even be seen here in SS with the thread: "What does your girlfriend think of cubing?" 

It's essentially required for gay people to identify themselves as such lest they appear to not exist. This is why "coming out" exists; straight people usually don't have to do this because it's already assumed. If you are against gay people mentioning their sexuality in any context it makes me question how comfortable you are with their sexuality to begin with, since self-identification is an important part of LGBT visibility.


----------



## Stefan (Sep 24, 2014)

rowan said:


> You would never know he was gay unless he mentioned it



I would equally not know someone was straight unless they mentioned it.



rowan said:


> This can even be seen here in SS with the thread: "What does your girlfriend think of cubing?"



Yeah the presentation of that one could certainly be better.



rowan said:


> It's essentially required for gay people to identify themselves as such lest they *appear to not exist*.



I really don't understand.



rowan said:


> If you are against gay people mentioning their sexuality in *any* context it makes me question how comfortable you are with their sexuality to begin with



Do you mean if I'm against it in at least one context, or if I'm against it in all contexts?

I'm against it in some contexts. But that's probably the case for everything. There are also contexts where I'd have something against people mentioning good stuff of me (and I certainly don't have anything against good stuff of me).

Gay couple holding hands or kissing in public next to me for example, if anything, makes me happy. For living in a day and age where they can. I'm also still subscribed to Zinnia Jones, quite active and public transgender, and it's visible on my channel. I really don't think I have a problem with stuff like this in general.


----------



## rowan (Sep 24, 2014)

Stefan said:


> I really don't understand.



If LGBT people don't mention they are LGBT, they are assumed to be straight, as I mentioned in my previous comment. Perhaps you do not do this in particular, but most people do. I already mentioned examples of this above so I won't repeat myself; I don't feel the need to argue this point, I doubt you disagree with me that straight is presumed to be the "norm" in society.

I have a question: why did bother you that Johnny mentioned he was gay then? 

It seemed (to me) he was providing background as to why he didn't relate to the community. My reaction to someone commenting that they are gay, an innocuous comment, isn't usually anything...? Maybe I'll mention I'm queer too, but usually I don't react. Your reaction seemed rather negative and dismissive: "Nobody cares." Also potentially hurtful, it takes some people years to come to terms with something like this, and your comment isn't something I'd expect for someone who seems so accepting.


----------



## Dene (Sep 24, 2014)

Why shouldn't people assume others to be straight? People that are in the group of LGBTIQ identifiers are amongst the significant minority. It would be irrational not to assume heterosexuality unless otherwise.


Anyway, perhaps Johnny is struggling to relate to the cubing community because he almost never posts here. Perhaps if he were more involved he'd relate to us more.


----------



## rowan (Sep 24, 2014)

I didn't want to derail this thread but I promise I just felt compelled to respond, opps.



Dene said:


> Why shouldn't people assume others to be straight? People that are in the group of LGBTIQ identifiers are amongst the significant minority. It would be irrational not to assume heterosexuality unless otherwise.



It's not necessary to assume anyone's sexuality. If there's some reason you require the information, you could just ask. The problems with assuming heterosexuality seem obvious enough to me: it alienates LGBT+ people. I would expand on what that means, but I trust that it's fairly self explanatory. It would be irrational to assume that everyone was queer, it's perfectly rational to not assume anything.


----------



## IRNjuggle28 (Sep 24, 2014)

Kirjava said:


> If this person is as fragile as you are making out, I don't advise him to post on the forum at all.


Did you even read the bottom part of my message? These are generalizations about people with social anxiety. Not necessarily about him. And no, I don't think he, or most people with anxiety, are that fragile. Just wanted to contrast how overly simplistic and insufficient your solution was with that. Shyness or anxiety or whatever is a spectrum. Having been discriminated against and having a changed social persona as a result of that (which he said himself) is not the extreme of anxiety that I described, but it's also not fixable with "just tell him we accept him and have done with it," which is what you said. I wanted to point out the opposite extreme to show that there's also a lot of gray area, and I think timidity from discrimination/bullying falls in that gray area.


----------



## Kirjava (Sep 24, 2014)

Please explain to me what should be done.


----------



## Stefan (Sep 24, 2014)

rowan said:


> they are assumed to be straight



I guess I just don't see why that's bad. Conversely, I've said things where I "risked" people assuming I'm gay, or other things I'm not, including bad things. I mostly only mind and clarify when it's something bad and has serious downsides.



rowan said:


> Perhaps you do not do this in particular



Well, if for some reason I do assume one or the other and have no information about them, of course I assume they're straight. Much higher probability.



rowan said:


> I have a question: why did bother you that Johnny mentioned he was gay then?



Did it?



rowan said:


> It seemed (to me) he was providing background as to why he didn't relate to the community. My reaction to someone commenting that they are gay, an innocuous comment, isn't usually anything...? Maybe I'll mention I'm queer too, but usually I don't react.



Yeah, that's probably better. And I acknowledge that neither the thread title, nor the actual question mention being gay, and that he did say early on that _"People on this forum have been great"_.



rowan said:


> Your reaction seemed rather negative and dismissive: "Nobody cares."



As said earlier and as should have been clear from the whole (short) post, I meant a negative kind of care. And yes, instead of _"Nobody cares. I think you have homophobiaphobia"_ I could have said something like _"Don't worry, this community doesn't have a problem with gays, there's no reason to think there is"._ Same thing, really. Just not my style.


----------



## Stefan (Sep 24, 2014)

rowan said:


> It's not necessary to assume anyone's sexuality. If there's some reason you require the information, you could just ask.



If you pursue a love interest, aren't you making an assumption about their sexuality? And yeah right, you'll just ask... that totally won't turn anybody off.



rowan said:


> The problems with assuming heterosexuality seem obvious enough to me: it alienates LGBT+ people. I would expand on what that means, but I trust that it's fairly self explanatory.



I really don't see it. Is heterosexuality some kind of insult? And the assumption by itself can't alienate (unless you can read minds). Can you maybe give an example of something said or done that would alienate?


----------



## rowan (Sep 24, 2014)

Heterosexuality isn't an insult. Please don't try to shift that onto me. I guess assuming alone in your head and never expressing it out loud isn't harmful. The assumption is only alienating if you vocalize it, yes. I suppose I could have clarified this but I felt it was fairly reasonable to assume that's what I meant.

As for a love interest: I have always known someone well enough before "pursuing" them to know whether or not they'd be attracted to me. If I didn't I would ask. What's more of a turn off than being open about your background is being pursued by someone you would never date to begin with.

The fact that you can't see why being assumed to be straight can alienate someone says volumes. But, I will offer hypotheticals: 

Any assumption that someone who is female has a male partner or vice versa is just a subtle reminder that they are an "other" which is obviously isolating for people. It's nice to use language that is more inclusive for people and doesn't assume that they are straight. It's something small but can go a long way in letting people feel welcome. You could say "partner" or "spouse." Most people don't bother.

It can also be more tangibly damaging. I'll give an example. At least in the United States, sexual health taught in public schools is taught as if straight sex is the only sort of sex that is ever going to happen, the assumption that all people are straight leads to higher risk of unprotected sex amongst LGBT+ populations. And, not to mention, it reinforces the idea that LGBT+ people are not "normal."

inb4 "LGBT+ people are still a minority so why not keep things the same," it is not hard to make language and sexual education more inclusive of LGBT+ people, it's really easy. (I'm also not sure if LGBT+ would be as much of a minority as they are if homophobia wasn't so intense. I go to a really inclusive and LGBT+ friendly campus and you'd be surprised the amount of people who come in straight and leave something else because they are finally in a place that is actually welcoming/open about sexuality.)


----------



## Stefan (Sep 25, 2014)

rowan said:


> Heterosexuality isn't an insult. Please don't try to shift that onto me.



Didn't mean to, sorry. Was just a way of asking what's bad about being assumed being it.



rowan said:


> The assumption is only alienating if you vocalize it, yes. I suppose I could have clarified this but I felt it was fairly reasonable to assume that's what I meant.



Was just a preamble to my actual question to emphasize what I'm asking for. I guess it was unnecessary, sorry.



rowan said:


> What's more of a turn off than being open about your background is being pursued by someone you would never date to begin with.



Don't know what's the bigger turn off, but that's missing the point anyway. If I assume, and am correct (which I very likely am), then neither of those two turn offs happens. But if I ask, then one of them happens right there.

Not going into the rest cause I just promised myself to stay clear of such discussions. But thank you for trying to help me understand it.


----------



## IRNjuggle28 (Sep 25, 2014)

Kirjava said:


> Please explain to me what should be done.


Not sure if you're being sarcastic or not, but IMO, just talk to him in ways that invite conversation, instead of ways that repel it. That's all. Saying "we accept you" in ways that are blunt and imply that he is at fault for something is unhelpful even if it's accurate. Examples of what not to do below. 


Stefan said:


> Nobody cares. I think you have homophobiaphobia.





Ninja Storm said:


> Nobody cares if you're gay.
> 
> You're not special.
> 
> Go to competitions and be a normal person, not some attention-seeking guy on the internet.





LucidCuber said:


> *This Community*? You seem to be making us all out to be homophobes based off of nothing, which is probably going to offend some people, myself included.
> Stop playing the victim card and intentionally trying to alienate yourself from people who would otherwise would welcome you with open arms, regardless of your sexuality.


----------



## Kirjava (Sep 25, 2014)

IRNjuggle28 said:


> Not sure if you're being sarcastic or not, but IMO, just talk to him in ways that invite conversation, instead of ways that repel it. That's all.



I think it's pathetic that I'm being told that saying we're accepting and he will have no problem is *not enough* or *incorrect*. 

He's not even posting anymore, and might not even care - you're just speaking for him at this point. 

How much do we have to tip toe around this thing to gratify your armchair psychologist standards?!


----------



## IRNjuggle28 (Sep 25, 2014)

Kirjava said:


> I think it's pathetic that I'm being told that saying we're accepting and he will have no problem is *not enough* or *incorrect*.


I can't believe this is your response to what I've been saying. *It is not the job of the cubing community to solve any of this.* No matter what all of us do, he's the only one who can solve this problem. That's why people saying they're accepting isn't enough. Because *our* efforts can't be enough. Only his can be. I think everyone in this thread has made it clear that the cubing community is not at fault for his lack of ability to connect. That's why I've been mostly throwing ideas out about how he could change himself and not talking about the community much. I really don't get how you could interpret what I said as a negative reflection on your efforts to help.


----------



## Kirjava (Sep 25, 2014)

IRNjuggle28 said:


> I can't believe this is your response to what I've been saying. *It is not the job of the cubing community to solve any of this.* No matter what all of us do, he's the only one who can solve this problem. That's why people saying they're accepting isn't enough. Because *our* efforts can't be enough. Only his can be. I think everyone in this thread has made it clear that the cubing community is not at fault for his lack of ability to connect. That's why I've been mostly throwing ideas out about how he could change himself and not talking about the community much. I really don't get how you could interpret what I said as a negative reflection on your efforts to help.



Then why even bring this drivel up? There's nothing more we can do. I've already said this and you complained about it.


----------



## Dene (Sep 25, 2014)

rowan said:


> It's not necessary to assume anyone's sexuality. If there's some reason you require the information, you could just ask. The problems with assuming heterosexuality seem obvious enough to me: it alienates LGBT+ people. I would expand on what that means, but I trust that it's fairly self explanatory. It would be irrational to assume that everyone was queer, it's perfectly rational to not assume anything.



I don't mean it in the sense that you walk past someone and explicitly think "that person is straight". It's more like if person A walks up to me and is like "hey, do you reckon person B is straight?" I would say "well I assume so, because most people are..." (this is assuming I otherwise know nothing about person B). This is the only rational assumption to make. Of course, one could choose to suspend any judgement, but this is of no use. I could just go and ask person B, but that is probably the most alienating thing one could do ("oh hey, are you gay?")

Personally I think the only un-alienating way to deal with this topic is to not let it have any significance for oneself. By explicitly recognising that others are of a different sexuality brings emphasis to the fact that they are different. It's better to say "ok so you're gay but it doesn't affect anything about our relationship", much in the same way it doesn't matter to me if someone I'm talking to is straight (using "relationship" in a general sense).

So perhaps one could say to person A "I dunno, who cares?". Or else "well, statistically one would expect they're straight, but what does that matter?" But then again, this is useless if person A wants to ask person B out.



rowan said:


> Any assumption that someone who is female has a male partner or vice versa is just a subtle reminder that they are an "other" which is obviously isolating for people. It's nice to use language that is more inclusive for people and doesn't assume that they are straight. It's something small but can go a long way in letting people feel welcome. You could say "partner" or "spouse." Most people don't bother.



Ultimately one has to face up to reality. If I see a chick and I want to go ask her out, if she's a lesbian she isn't going to be interested anyway. And if some guy is interested in me he's wasting his time because I'm not gay. Acting as if LGBTIQs aren't different is completely impractical, because they are different and I'm not going to be all "yea I'll go out with you" to a guy, because I'm straight. And it would be really over the top for me to, every time I want to ask a chick out, go "hey I just need to make sure you aren't a lesbian, before I ask you out".

At the end of the day, everyone is different in some way. It sucks for LGBTIQs that they're different in a way which is generally extremely relevant to human social interaction (sexual relationships). But LGBTIQs only isolate themselves by acting out and making a big deal out of it.

Just as an example, I'm fairly short for a white guy. There is abundant scientific research showing that being short is a disadvantage for males in modern western society (ranging from all sorts of factors such as how competent people think you are, to the likelihood of getting a really good job, to your level of attractiveness, to seeing over the head of the tall dude in front of you...). And from the perspective of a short guy, if you look out for it it's actually really noticeable. But there's nothing I can do about it, so I just have to accept it and deal with it. That's life, and most of the time life sucks if you let it.


----------



## rowan (Sep 25, 2014)

Dene: dating people is such a tiny part of your interactions with people. If the only time you ever assume someone's sexuality is because you want to attempt to date them or you're helping someone else date someone, then I could honestly care less. I don't think we disagree that much. I am more referring to the institutionalized assumptions that people are straight; these are more harmful and damaging than anything else. 

I have confidence most people can interact with a someone and decide for themselves if they are interested or not, so the whole dating thing isn't really what I was talking about. I'm more concerned about assumptions at the societal and institutional levels. Personal assumptions can also be somewhat isolating, but if you only do them when you try to pursue someone because you feel uncomfortable asking someone if they're queer, I think we'll survive.

But I've had people straight up ask me and I've never found it awkward! Maybe that's just me though, I'm into blunt-ness so I guess everyone's different. *shrug*


----------



## IRNjuggle28 (Sep 25, 2014)

Kirjava said:


> Then why even bring this drivel up? There's nothing more *we* can do. I've already said this and you complained about it.


I didn't mention ANY of this stuff so that we could do things. I mentioned it so that Johnny could do things.


----------



## Kirjava (Sep 25, 2014)

If there is nothing else we can do, please don't tell me that what I have done is not enough. It's presented as if I am behaving incorrectly.


----------



## Dene (Sep 25, 2014)

rowan said:


> I don't think we disagree that much. I am more referring to the institutionalized assumptions that people are straight; these are more harmful and damaging than anything else.



Oh I see. Tbh I never really noticed so much, but perhaps that's because New Zealand isn't anti-gay.


----------



## Johnny (Sep 26, 2014)

IRNjuggle28 said:


> I can't believe this is your response to what I've been saying. *It is not the job of the cubing community to solve any of this.* No matter what all of us do, he's the only one who can solve this problem. That's why people saying they're accepting isn't enough. Because *our* efforts can't be enough. Only his can be. I think everyone in this thread has made it clear that the cubing community is not at fault for his lack of ability to connect. That's why I've been mostly throwing ideas out about how he could change himself and not talking about the community much. I really don't get how you could interpret what I said as a negative reflection on your efforts to help.



please address me directly next time, thanks.


----------



## IRNjuggle28 (Sep 26, 2014)

Johnny said:


> please address me directly next time, thanks.


I addressed you directly earlier in this thread, and you never responded. Pages 4 and 5. If you found it as useless as everyone else seems to have, feel free to tell me and I'll quit wasting space in this thread. Best wishes.


----------



## mark49152 (Sep 28, 2014)

Johnny said:


> please address me directly next time, thanks.


Wow, how rude - tips on relating to the community definitely needed here!


----------



## Kirjava (Sep 28, 2014)

mark49152 said:


> Wow, how rude - tips on relating to the community definitely needed here!



Gays ruin everything.


----------



## IRNjuggle28 (Sep 28, 2014)

Kirjava said:


> Gays ruin everything.


No, I'm pretty sure that you're the one that ruins everything. I really don't give a crap whether you're joking or serious about what you just said. You constantly are rude to everybody on this forum and it's getting really ****ing old. A few posts ago, you got angry with me for implying that your efforts to help were not what they should've been, and now you're saying "gays ruin everything?" If you didn't lose the right to criticize how anyone else tries to help Johnny when you accused him of insulting the cubing community and being pessimistic and histrionic, you just lost that right with this post. There's a reason your speedsolving wiki page calls you snide and immature. I don't care how brilliant a puzzle theorist you are, you're an ass.


----------



## Kirjava (Sep 28, 2014)

IRNjuggle28 said:


> No, I'm pretty sure that you're the one that ruins everything. I really don't give a crap whether you're joking or serious about what you just said. You constantly are rude to everybody on this forum and it's getting really ****ing old. A few posts ago, you got angry with me for implying that your efforts to help were not what they should've been, and now you're saying "gays ruin everything?" If you didn't lose the right to criticize how anyone else tries to help Johnny when you accused him of insulting the cubing community and being pessimistic and histrionic, you just lost that right with this post. There's a reason your speedsolving wiki page calls you snide and immature. I don't care how brilliant a puzzle theorist you are, you're an ass.



I don't think he knows, no one tell him!


----------



## Dene (Sep 29, 2014)

Kirjava said:


> I don't think he knows, no one tell him!



lol it's funny cos I'm in on the joke and he looks silly


----------



## Johnny (Oct 24, 2014)

I need to get something off my chest- Ever since MeMyselfAndPi made the video where he defended Chick-Fil-A (the video was very homophobic) I have kind of felt like the community was anti-gay. The reason why was because it didn't seem like that affected his reputation that much (although the v-cube thing did). I've realized that this community really isn't anti-gay but I'm still a bit frustrated that there wasn't more opposition to the things that he was saying.

I was really upset and hurt by what he said and I needed to say that.


----------



## TeddyKGB (Oct 24, 2014)

I don't think there are a whole lot of people who give two ***** about anything MMAP has to say about anything except for maybe 12-inch bolts...


----------



## Artic (Oct 24, 2014)

Johnny said:


> I need to get something off my chest- Ever since MeMyselfAndPi made the video where he defended Chick-Fil-A (the video was very homophobic) I have kind of felt like the community was anti-gay. The reason why was because it didn't seem like that affected his reputation that much (although the v-cube thing did). I've realized that this community really isn't anti-gay but I'm still a bit frustrated that there wasn't more opposition to the things that he was saying.
> 
> I was really upset and hurt by what he said and I needed to say that.



Can you please stop with your intolerance. This is America and people can say whatever they want. No one has to agree with everything you believe in, and you don't have to either. You've been crying for attention ever since you started this thread, and your attempts at playing the victim card are tiresome and boring. Please move on already.


----------



## Johnny (Oct 24, 2014)

Artic said:


> Can you please stop with your intolerance. This is America and people can say whatever they want. No one has to agree with everything you believe in, and you don't have to either. You've been crying for attention ever since you started this thread, and your attempts at playing the victim card are tiresome and boring. Please move on already.



When people say things that are homophobic and bigoted, it's hurtful. Gay people in this country are not treated as well as straight people and face constant hostility. We are second class citizens, although fortunately that is changing. But we still face discrimination. If you can't see that, you're the one who has a problem, not me.


----------



## IRNjuggle28 (Oct 24, 2014)

Johnny said:


> When people say things that are homophobic and bigoted, it's hurtful. Gay people in this country are not treated as well as straight people and face constant hostility. We are second class citizens, although fortunately that is changing. But we still face discrimination. If you can't see that, you're the one who has a problem, not me.


Someone, somewhere, is saying something bigoted and hurtful toward every social group imaginable right now. If it happens in your real life, yeah, that's crappy. But don't look for random morons on youtube to be hurt by, because you'll find them, and you would be able to find them even if you weren't gay.


----------



## Johnny (Oct 24, 2014)

IRNjuggle28 said:


> Someone, somewhere, is saying something bigoted and hurtful toward every social group imaginable right now. If it happens in your real life, yeah, that's crappy. But don't look for random morons on youtube to be hurt by, because you'll find them, and you would be able to find them even if you weren't gay.



I never look to be offended. That's why I haven't watched the video since.

The only reason why I'm still upset about this is because I never let it off my chest so it just kinda lingered.


----------



## hawkmp4 (Oct 24, 2014)

Artic said:


> Can you please stop with your intolerance. This is America and people can say whatever they want. No one has to agree with everything you believe in, and you don't have to either. You've been crying for attention ever since you started this thread, and your attempts at playing the victim card are tiresome and boring. Please move on already.



If you really want to get into it, there are several things going on.

There's an issue of rights. Sure, with some restrictions, people can say whatever they want. The constitutional right of freedom of speech allows most expression.

That doesn't mean that someone is free to say whatever they want without repercussion. They are free to say what they want, and other people are free to call them a bigot for saying that. No rights are being trampled there.

You are free to make your post, and I am free to make mine and tell you that I think that you're being a **** and your position is naive.

EDIT: BTW this is not America, it's a forum, where many people are not from the US!


----------



## Dene (Oct 24, 2014)

Yanks are notoriously ignorant, so one shouldn't expect anything else from them.


Also no one cares about memyselfandpi.


----------



## PJKCuber (Oct 24, 2014)

Artic said:


> Can you please stop with your intolerance. This is America and people can say whatever they want. No one has to agree with everything you believe in, and you don't have to either. You've been crying for attention ever since you started this thread, and your attempts at playing the victim card are tiresome and boring. Please move on already.



Dude, for God's sake empathize. How would you feel if you were a part of a community who was being being mistreated. How would you feel if I called you ____ .
The OP doesn't want attention, Johnny justs want to be treated like a normal person. It hurts Johnny's feelings when people call ____ and ____.
Believe me, I am not gay and yet people call me gay at school. It's ****ing annoying and painful. Believe, me I've been called nerdy,bookworm,fat,short,and ...... well it doesn't matter. My point is that it's extremely painful and depressing to have the whole world call you bad things. Johnny isn't playing the victim card. How is Johnny intolerant? Everybody has some good in them, however you may view them. Being solitary may feel nice to people who hate social stuff, but I'm pretty sure Johnny is pretty alone and hurt.
I don't normally post like this, because I'm shy and reserved, but posts like Artic's just tick me off.


----------



## Johnny (Oct 24, 2014)

PJKCuber said:


> Believe me, I am not gay and yet people call me gay at school. It's ****ing annoying and painful.



I think it's really courageous of you to say that.


----------



## TDM (Oct 24, 2014)

PJKCuber said:


> Believe me, I am not gay and yet people call me gay at school. It's ****ing annoying and painful. Believe, me I've been called nerdy,bookworm,fat,short,and ...... well it doesn't matter. My point is that it's extremely painful and depressing to have the whole world call you bad things.


There were a few people like that at my old school... imo those people's opinions aren't really worth caring about. Just ignore them (well don't completely ignore them, but ignore what they're saying, because you know that they're wrong.)
E: maybe I'm being a bit too extreme here... but what I'm saying is, just don't listen


----------



## Stefan (Oct 24, 2014)

PJKCuber said:


> people call me *gay *at school. It's ****ing annoying and painful.
> [...] it's extremely painful and depressing to have the whole world call you *bad* things.



Why do you think being gay is bad?


----------



## hawkmp4 (Oct 24, 2014)

Being gay isn't bad, but having someone call you gay, intending to hurt you and degrade you, that's bad. It's less the word itself than the emotion behind it. 

It's also being called something that person is not.


----------



## Johnny (Oct 24, 2014)

Stefan said:


> Why do you think being gay is bad?



Being gay is good. However, when a bunch of people are calling you gay, they are singling you out. That doesn't feel good.


----------



## TDM (Oct 24, 2014)

Johnny said:


> Being gay is good.


I'm not trying to argue that it's bad when I ask this... but in what way is it 'good'? (how is it better than not being gay?) I can't really see why it would be better to be gay than not gay...


----------



## Johnny (Oct 24, 2014)

TDM said:


> I'm not trying to argue that it's bad when I ask this... but in what way is it 'good'? (how is it better than not being gay?) I can't really see why it would be better to be gay than not gay...



Saying that being gay is good does not negate the possibility of being bi or straight being good as well


----------



## goodatthis (Oct 24, 2014)

Being able to find love is good, whether it's with the same gender or opposite.


----------



## IRNjuggle28 (Oct 25, 2014)

Stefan said:


> Why do you think being gay is bad?


Being gay isn't bad, but being misunderstood is. If people think you're gay when you're really not, you'll have a harder time finding someone who's interested in a relationship with you, since the gender you're attracted to thinks you're only interested in the other gender. Plus, the word "gay" is hurtful when used as an insult, as others have said.


----------



## TDM (Oct 25, 2014)

Johnny said:


> Saying that being gay is good does not negate the possibility of being bi or straight being good as well


Oh ok. It just sounded to me like you meant it was better.


----------



## DanpHan (Nov 29, 2014)

PJKCuber said:


> Dude, for God's sake empathize. *How would you feel if you were a part of a community who was being being mistreated.* How would you feel if I called you ____ .
> The OP doesn't want attention, Johnny justs want to be treated like a normal person. It hurts Johnny's feelings when people call ____ and ____.
> Believe me, I am not gay and yet people call me gay at school. It's ****ing annoying and painful. Believe, me I've been called nerdy,bookworm,fat,short,and ...... well it doesn't matter. My point is that it's extremely painful and depressing to have the whole world call you bad things. Johnny isn't playing the victim card. How is Johnny intolerant? Everybody has some good in them, however you may view them. Being solitary may feel nice to people who hate social stuff, but I'm pretty sure Johnny is pretty alone and hurt.
> I don't normally post like this, because I'm shy and reserved, but posts like Artic's just tick me off.



We are talking about the cubing community. Name a single person that has mistreated Johnny because he is gay. You won't find any because there aren't any. I'm not going to take sides here, but saying that he started this thread for attention is a completely valid argument.

There are two scenarios in this case.

1. Johnny is referring to discrimination in his everyday life, and not necessarily from the cubing community. If this is the case, there's no need for this thread to be here. He even said in one of his posts that "people on this forum have been great." Then there's no reason to bring up having issues relating to the community here, which is what the post is about, because there aren't any issues.

2. Johnny is referring to discrimination from the cubing community. This also makes no sense because, as far as I can tell, no one in the cubing community has discriminated against him because of his sexual orientation. In this case (be it intentional or not), it's not only a call for attention, but also an insult to the entire forum and cubing community, basically stating that we're prejudiced and intolerant. He's offended more people in the community than have offended him.

I'm not saying that Johnny's a bad person. I'm saying this thread should not exist. It's basically an accusation of something no one here has done.


----------



## IRNjuggle28 (Dec 3, 2014)

Why did you bump this? Nobody's posted on it in 5 weeks.


DanpHan said:


> We are talking about the cubing community. Name a single person that has mistreated Johnny because he is gay. You won't find any because there aren't any.


He's already said multiple times that the people on this forum treat him well, and that other than a couple morons on youtube, the cubing community has been accepting. 


> I'm not going to take sides here


Yes you are, don't bull**** us.


> Saying that he started this thread for attention is a completely valid argument.


I don't think anyone ever posts a thread anywhere without the expectation that someone will pay attention to it. If what you actually meant is that he started the thread for no reason besides attention, I didn't get that impression. Plenty of easier ways to get attention than this if that's all you want. 


> There are two scenarios in this case.
> 
> 1. Johnny is referring to discrimination in his everyday life, and not necessarily from the cubing community. If this is the case, there's no need for this thread to be here. He even said in one of his posts that "people on this forum have been great." Then there's no reason to bring up having issues relating to the community here, which is what the post is about, because there aren't any issues.
> 
> 2. Johnny is referring to discrimination from the cubing community. This also makes no sense because, as far as I can tell, no one in the cubing community has discriminated against him because of his sexual orientation. In this case (be it intentional or not), it's not only a call for attention, but also an insult to the entire forum and cubing community, basically stating that we're prejudiced and intolerant. He's offended more people in the community than have offended him.


I don't know how there's any ambiguity here. He obviously is referring to number 1, as this post shows. 


> Johnny is referring to discrimination in his everyday life, and not necessarily from the cubing community. If this is the case, there's no need for this thread to be here. He even said in one of his posts that "people on this forum have been great." Then there's no reason to bring up having issues relating to the community here, which is what the post is about, because there aren't any issues.


Just because people on this forum aren't discriminatory doesn't mean he can relate to them. That's the issue he said he has. The thread is called "having trouble relating to the cubing community," not "having trouble not being discriminated against by the cubing community." 

"Relating to people" refers to being able do interact with people in ways that feel emotionally satisfying. If he made this thread, it's obviously not satisfying for him, in which case he could say he has an issue. Perhaps his expectations of how much connection to others happens on forums are too high, and that's all that is wrong. But if he's not satisfied with it, then obviously it's an issue to him. Not your place to tell him he doesn't have an issue. 


DanpHan said:


> This thread should not exist. *It's basically an accusation of something no one here has done.*


No, it's not an accusation. He is not referring specifically to this forum. I don't know how the post saying "people have been great to me here; I'm talking about my everyday life" leaves any room for misunderstanding, but you seem to have found a way to get it wrong anyway.

Should probably quit wasting time replying to posts on this, but the way you and several others in this thread rip any post that's even slightly ambiguous to shreds really pisses me off. I didn't agree with everything Johnny said but I found it obvious he wasn't blaming the people on the forum for anything.


----------



## DanpHan (Dec 3, 2014)

IRNjuggle28 said:


> Why did you bump this? Nobody's posted on it in 5 weeks.
> He's already said multiple times that the people on this forum treat him well, and that other than a couple morons on youtube, the cubing community has been accepting.
> Yes you are, don't bull**** us.
> I don't think anyone ever posts a thread anywhere without the expectation that someone will pay attention to it. If what you actually meant is that he started the thread for no reason besides attention, I didn't get that impression. Plenty of easier ways to get attention than this if that's all you want.
> ...



Seems a lot like you were trying to **** me off as well, saying that I was "bull****ing. Either way, yes, I'll admit that I was wrong, and yes, I probably was taking sides, but a lot of it was just misinterpretation on my part. Please be a bit more tolerant with me, as I'm trying to correct these things.

I bumped this thread because there's clearly points that need to be addressed.

Eliminating all off topic discussion, this is my main point.

I can agree that he isn't being discriminated against in this community, so I'll avoid any thing referring to that. On to relating. He has stated that his issue relating to the community stems from the fact that he is gay. I'm not really sure how that would affect his ability to interact with people in "emotionally satisfying ways," since virtually no discussion on the forum is related to sexual orientation. Using the evidence from this post and the original post, I can translate the meaning of his original post to mean, "I can't have emotionally satisfying interaction with people in the cubing community because I'm gay and they aren't." In this case, yes, he does have an issue. This isn't the community's fault or Johnny's fault. However, I don't think that the community needs to make a change since, in general, the people have been accepting of him in this regard. If he wants to be able to relate, he needs to change the way he views it.

Hopefully this clears some things up. I'm willing to admit that some of my statements in the previous post were misinterpretations and I was wrong with a lot of those statements. Feel free to clarify any misinterpretations in this post.

EDIT: Just to clarify a little, the previous post was a reply to another post by someone that implied that there were people in the community mistreating him. That's probably where a lot of the misconceptions came from.


----------



## ketchuphater999 (Dec 3, 2014)

Look, this thread really isn't adding anything useful to the community other than arguments. Johnny already said what he wanted to say and if he(or anyone else, for that matter) hasn't posted anything here for over a month then I think the majority of people don't find this thread very constructive (it's just a bunch of arguments imo).

I don't think there's much anyone else can add to this.



> Seems a lot like you were *trying to **** me off* as well, saying that* I was "bull****ing."*


my point being...


----------



## IRNjuggle28 (Dec 3, 2014)

DanpHan said:


> Seems a lot like you were trying to **** me off as well, saying that I was "bull****ing. Either way, yes, I'll admit that I was wrong, and yes, I probably was taking sides, but a lot of it was just misinterpretation on my part. Please be a bit more tolerant with me, as I'm trying to correct these things.


Fair enough.


DanpHan said:


> The previous post was a reply to another post by someone that implied that there were people *in the community *mistreating him. That's probably where a lot of the misconceptions came from.


Perhaps the part that got misinterpreted was this: "Dude, for God's sake empathize. How would you feel if you were a part of a community who was being being mistreated?"

Is this the part that made you think he meant people on this forum were mistreating him? I think the community he is referring to is the LGBT community, not the cubing community. He didn't mean that the people on this forum were doing anything, just that gay people are not treated very well in general. 



> I can agree that he isn't being discriminated against in this community, so I'll avoid any thing referring to that. On to relating. He has stated that his issue relating to the community stems from the fact that he is gay. I'm not really sure how that would affect his ability to interact with people in "emotionally satisfying ways," since virtually no discussion on the forum is related to sexual orientation.


 Having been bullied or discriminated against in the past can affect the way you interact with everyone, regardless of what the topic of discussion is. Often, it makes people less confident and more withdrawn. That's the thing that makes it difficult to relate to people. Johnny was a bit vague, but this post is the main one that made me think that's what he meant.


> Using the evidence from this post and the original post, I can translate the meaning of his original post to mean, "I can't have emotionally satisfying interaction with people in the cubing community because I'm gay and they aren't."


 I interpreted the OP and Johnny's later posts to mean "The way I've been treated because of being gay affected my personality in a way that makes it harder to have emotionally satisfying interaction with people, on and off the forum."


> I don't think that the community needs to make a change since, in general, the people have been accepting of him in this regard. If he wants to be able to relate, he needs to change the way he views it.


Yep, I totally agree with you that that's what he needs to do. 

I don't think Johnny thinks the community needs to change either--the OP asked for advice on what *he* can do to better relate to us, and he said the people on here were great. He knows it's on him.


> Hopefully this clears some things up.


Yep, completely. Thanks.


----------

