# I've been screwing around, avioding BLD for a long time now.... I need 3OP + M2 guide



## *LukeMayn* (Nov 9, 2008)

Phew... just made the title fit in 
***YES I'VE LOOKED AROUND THE BLD SECTION***
Anyway, I'm looking for some help. I plan to learn:
3OP corners
M2 edges

The problem is, I REALLY don't understand Macky's site  So I was wondering if there were any easy for n00b's to understand guides for what I need.
I also want suggestions for memo like what people use for these methods. I plan to use that Bi Di Po Pu kind of thing for corners and a story for edges.

I need suggestions for memo and the guides (*NOT MACKY'S*) for 3OP corners and M2 edges

Thanks


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## DavidWoner (Nov 9, 2008)

well theres always lucas' page for 3OP

and stefans guide for M2


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## fanwuq (Nov 9, 2008)

Syllable memo corners is not for 3OP. That's better for something that solves orientation and permutation (Pochmann, R2, freestyle commutators.) I suggest Joel Noort's solvethecube.co.uk for Classic Pochmann corners.
And Erik's guide for M2 edges.


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## McWizzle94 (Nov 9, 2008)

I made a tutorial on youtube (www.youtube.com/McWizzle94) maybe it will help.


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## *LukeMayn* (Nov 9, 2008)

Thanks a lot guys 
I was expecting to get flamed at with 


> WE HAVE A F****** SEARCH BAR!!!! USE IT


I really appreciate your help


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## Dene (Nov 9, 2008)

pssh, who needs 3OP? Just go freestyle!


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## Escher (Nov 9, 2008)

lol, sure,
even though he didnt get mackys 3OP guide, he definitely will get commutators/conjugates/memo straight away!


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## *LukeMayn* (Nov 10, 2008)

Escher said:


> lol, sure,
> even though he didnt get mackys 3OP guide, he definitely will get commutators/conjugates/memo straight away!



I'll study up but I'll first learn 3OP corners

EDIT:
I'm having trouble with 3OP corner permutation. I'm using the lags on Lucas' site but.... I don't really get where the buffer is, is there a buffer even. and O.O there are a lot of set-up moves!


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## Escher (Nov 10, 2008)

im sorry if i sounded a bit rude, i just wanted to show up the ridiculousness of Denes post...
anyway, i suppose you could learn freestyle. if you practiced sighted solving using it then it would be possible, and then just practiced quick memo afterwards. with freestyle i would imagine you could get sub 30 or 40 execution (with a hell of a lot of practice).

watch and read all of the tutorials you can find. the buffer is simply a 'device' that you use because you can never switch only two pieces at once. 
personally i think that as a beginner you should go old/classic pochmann.
then when you have a better understanding of BLD solving, you should have a look at 3OP and M2/R2.
if you plan on getting any really good times you should definitely go freestyle once you have a bit of experience.


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## *LukeMayn* (Nov 10, 2008)

I didn't think you sounded rude 
I understand conjugates, I don't really get commutators, And am having trouble with memo.
I know _classic_ pochmann I just haven't tried solving with it BLD. I though I may as well learn something worthwhile from the get-go (no offece Stephan).


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## Escher (Nov 10, 2008)

bad move, stefan will eat you!!!
the best way of figuring out commutators is getting another cuber to do a 3 or 5 cycle, and then working out how to solve it. another good way is to do say 2 commutators (one edge and one corner commutator) on a cube in the morning, and then when you come home later try and solve them, as hopefully you will have forgotten.
the reason i suggested old pochmann is that it is (relatively) very easy for memo + solution... doing plenty of old pochmann solves would be good for memo training when you switch.
heise has a good section on commutators, as does badmephisto.
i'd suggest messing around with M, E and S slices and RUR'U' (and its inverse) for fun three cycles of edges, and R/L etc for corners.
making up your own OLLs is also a good little way of expanding your knowledge of move groups and orientation problems. 

visual memo is the best and fastest, but not everybody can do it. memo by stories sticks with you well, but potentially takes a while. hexadecimal for edges is efficient, but only if you like hex 
anyway, im sure you can find loads of different memo methods around here. the best thing to do is try every one and see which sticks best (not just what delivers successful solves).
find somebody on the chat room perhaps who knows more than i do about BLD and is willing to help and give good examples...


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## fanwuq (Nov 10, 2008)

Classic Pochmann corners translate easily to commutators and is sufficient to average sub-30 on 2x2 BLD.


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## rjohnson_8ball (Nov 10, 2008)

*LukeMayn* said:


> EDIT:
> I'm having trouble with 3OP corner permutation. I'm using the lags on Lucas' site but.... I don't really get where the buffer is, is there a buffer even. and O.O there are a lot of set-up moves!



Excuse me if I say something you already might understand...

With 3OP, the "buffer" position is the position of the first piece in a sequence. For example, suppose the piece in position 4 belongs in position 5 and the piece in position 5 belongs in position 6 and the piece in position 6 belongs in position 7 and the piece in position 7 belongs in position 8 and the piece in position 8 belongs back in position 4 (our starting point). You can write this cycle as (4 5 6 7 8). Using the 3OP method, we first perform the cycle (4 5 6). This will move pieces 4 and 5 into their correct positions and put the piece that was in position 6 back into position 4. Note that it should really belong in position 7, not position 4. No problem, position 4 is our buffer. Each time we do a 3 cycle, the 3rd piece in the 3 cycle goes back into our buffer position. Now we do the 3 cycle (4 7 8). The pieces from positions 4 and 7 will go to their correct positions. Also, the piece in position 8 will end up in our buffer position "4", just where we want it. The final result is all 5 pieces in their correct positions.

Notice the cycle (4 5 6 7 8) is equivalent to the cycle (8 4 5 6 7). Personally, I like to start cycles from the smallest number. It helps me memorize easier.

Some things to remember about 3OP corners... You need to orient the corners first. The setup and restore moves that you use for preparing a 3 cycle swap should not involve quarter turns on the side faces -- otherwise corners will become unoriented.


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## AvGalen (Nov 10, 2008)

I had my screen minimised and at first I only read: "I've been screwing around"
Even after reading ", avioding BLD for a long time now...." my mind still didn't understand you were actually talking about cubing.

Maybe next time you could chose a different (shorter) title?


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## *LukeMayn* (Nov 11, 2008)

AvGalen said:


> I had my screen minimised and at first I only read: "I've been screwing around"
> Even after reading ", avioding BLD for a long time now...." my mind still didn't understand you were actually talking about cubing.
> 
> Maybe next time you could chose a different (shorter) title?



maybe.... but i actually put a bit of though into it :/
I explain what was happening and what I needed. maybe i'll cut to the chase next time


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## *LukeMayn* (Nov 11, 2008)

rjohnson_8ball said:


> *LukeMayn* said:
> 
> 
> > EDIT:
> ...



THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU!

you put it in a way that was so easy to understand! 

Though, I have a question about visual memo.
1. Is there an easy to understand guide anywhere?
2. When people say "remember shapes" what do they mean?
Do they mean a bunch of triangle 3 cycle in the air?


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## rjohnson_8ball (Nov 12, 2008)

"Shapes" means the paths of cycles. The path of the single corner cycle (1 4 3 2 6 7 8 5) resembles the stitching on a baseball. (I assume 5, 6, 7, 8 are directly underneath 1, 2, 3, 4 respectively.) I have trouble memorizing, so I often remember the cycle paths in addition to the list of numbers (or word sequence story).


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## Lucas Garron (Nov 13, 2008)

*LukeMayn* said:


> 2. When people say "remember shapes" what do they mean?
> Do they mean a bunch of triangle 3 cycle in the air?


Sorta. http://www.speedsolving.com/forum/showpost.php?p=39941&postcount=6


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## DavidWoner (Nov 13, 2008)

*LukeMayn* said:


> I don't really get commutators



http://www.ryanheise.com/cube/commutators.html

this was the only explanation I understood. Practice them by shooting random peices with classic pochmann and then solving them with comms.


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## siva.shanmukh (Nov 13, 2008)

Escher said:


> bad move, stefan will eat you!!!
> the best way of figuring out commutators is getting another cuber to do a 3 or 5 cycle, and then working out how to solve it.



Hey can you suggest an A and a B for a 5 cycle commutator. I never tried a 5 cycle commutator till date. But I could successfully do a 3 cycle corners and and edge pair flip at a time. Check this out

(F R d' R U' R') U' (R U R' d R' F') U. And at the end if you do the OLL alg - 
U' R U R' U' R' F R F' U' (We get a G-Perm)


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## Escher (Nov 13, 2008)

try (M2 E2) (RUR'U')|(E2 M2) (URU'R')
i dont have a cube to hand, but im pretty sure thats a 5-cycle...
ill edit it in a minute if its not.
another cool 'g-perm' with edges and corners is
(r2) (RUR'U')|(r2) (URU'R').


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## joey (Nov 13, 2008)

5 -cycles are pretty hard though, in general. To make a comm on the spot, to do 5-cycles.


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## Escher (Nov 13, 2008)

definitely. my grasp of commutators is limited at best, im just good at creating them


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## joey (Nov 13, 2008)

well, im saying, yes, you can maybe just find a random 5-cycle like that. but I don't think someone can find good 5-cycles for a chosen 5-pieces on the spot. Someone, please prove me wrong, and show me how.


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## Escher (Nov 13, 2008)

oooooooooh i get you. yeah, i really cant do that...


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## siva.shanmukh (Nov 13, 2008)

Even I don't have a cube at hand and I too am sure that its a 5 cycle. It gives me an idea of how one may do a 5 cycle. My understanding of it now goes this way.

3-cycle - 2 swaps with a cubie common
5-cycle - 2 three cycles with a cubie common


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## Escher (Nov 14, 2008)

my understanding of very easily creating cycles is...
3 edge cycles - one inner slice + RUR'U' (and its inverse, obviously)
5 edge cycles - 2 inner slice turns + sexy trigger and inverse
edge and corner 3 cycles - wide turn/equivalent + sexy trigger and inverse.
these require no understanding, and are good for practising actually solving commutators.


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## *LukeMayn* (Nov 16, 2008)

I've been playing wiht 3OP recently and I have a question.

1. Do you solve 3 pieces at a time?
2. I'm learning it because I plan to go freestyle corners, what else will I need to know?
3. What's a good memo method for freestyle corners?
4. How fast can M2 edges with freestyle corners get?


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## tim (Nov 16, 2008)

*LukeMayn* said:


> I've been playing wiht 3OP recently and I have a question.
> 
> 1. Do you solve 3 pieces at a time?
> 2. I'm learning it because I plan to go freestyle corners, what else will I need to know?
> ...



1. 2 at a time
2. Commutators
3. Images
4. You can get the WR with it.


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## Rubixcubematt (Nov 16, 2008)

*LukeMayn* said:


> I've been playing wiht 3OP recently and I have a question.
> 
> 1. Do you solve 3 pieces at a time?
> 2. I'm learning it because I plan to go freestyle corners, what else will I need to know?
> ...



well ville, the WR holder, memos freestyle corners by numbers/visual. He remembers wher the pieces have to b permuted with the numbers, then remembers the orientation/way the stickers are facing with visual. Mcwizzle uses M2 and sometimes freestyle and he can get 1:2x.xx, but i agree with tim, i think you could get the WR with that method.


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## McWizzle94 (Nov 16, 2008)

Rubixcubematt said:


> *LukeMayn* said:
> 
> 
> > I've been playing wiht 3OP recently and I have a question.
> ...



Not really but I'm trying to learn it =]


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## Ville Seppänen (Nov 17, 2008)

Rubixcubematt said:


> well ville, the WR holder, memos freestyle corners by numbers/visual. He remembers wher the pieces have to b permuted with the numbers, then remembers the orientation/way the stickers are facing with visual.


Pretty much, I would just like to point out that I remember the 2 things at the same time. I sort of "feel" the right sticker when memorising. I'm not completely sure how I use this memo method. It has something to do with having stickers in UD, FB and RL group. So say I have UFL->BUR->LBD it would be 136 for the order and the stickers go something like "correct", FB, RL. It's weird.



Rubixcubematt said:


> Mcwizzle uses M2 and sometimes freestyle and he can get 1:2x.xx, but i agree with tim, i think you could get the WR with that method.


Not for long.  (I hope)


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## *LukeMayn* (Nov 26, 2008)

OK, I've come to a conclusion with my method which I shall use!!!

Execution:

Corners = 3OP/freestyle
Edges = M2 for all excluding the M slice for the M slice I will use classic Pochmann to avoid bad orientation

Memo:

corners = (uncertain) visual orientation + numbered Permutation
Edges = (95% sure) Person+Action


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## Rubixcubematt (Nov 26, 2008)

sounds good luke, how many freestyle algos have u learnt?


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## *LukeMayn* (Nov 26, 2008)

ummmmm.... none lol
I'm just gonna... like free style it. You know a couple of T's here, and E just below, then an A over there. And yes, If I do something like a T-perm I will know to make sure to change the edges back


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## mrbiggs (Nov 29, 2008)

How do you use Classic Pochmann for the M slice? The buffers are different...

Unless you mean first rotate the cube so that DF is in UR, do the set up moves, do a T perm, undo setup moves, undo cube rotation, but that seems ridiculously slow to me. 

I think it would be way faster to just preorient the M slice and then learn the simple algs (U2 M' U2 M', M2, M U2 M U2) to shoot to the oriented M slice locations. That's what I'm doing right now because it's still way faster than Classic Pochmann edges.


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## joey (Nov 29, 2008)

Uh what? Most of that post didn't make sense :/


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## mrbiggs (Nov 29, 2008)

*LukeMayn* said:


> Edges = M2 for all excluding the M slice for the M slice I will use classic Pochmann to avoid bad orientation





mrbiggs said:


> How do you use Classic Pochmann for the M slice? The buffers are different...
> 
> Unless you mean first rotate the cube so that DF is in UR, do the set up moves, do a T perm, undo setup moves, undo cube rotation, but that seems ridiculously slow to me.
> 
> I think it would be way faster to just preorient the M slice and then learn the simple algs (U2 M' U2 M', M2, M U2 M U2) to shoot to the oriented M slice locations. That's what I'm doing right now because it's still way faster than CP edges.





joey said:


> Uh what? Most of that post didn't make sense :/



I was responding to the part of his post quoted above.

Maybe he's not using Classic Pochmann the way I'm used to and using that method it's efficient, but if that's true, I'd like him to elaborate on that as I'd be interested in the method.

The rest of the post I was basically explaining how I assumed one would use Classic Pochmann during the middle of an M2 solve using cube rotations to make up for the change in buffer. Of course, that would mess up some other stuff which you'd have to fix, making things even worse.

Then I proposed a method I use which simplifies shooting to places on the M slice by preorienting. It's slow, but I think it's faster than Classic Pochmann.


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## joey (Nov 29, 2008)

Ah okay, I understand a little more now.

But, I think you mean 3OP? CP means corner permutation..


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## mrbiggs (Nov 29, 2008)

joey said:


> Ah okay, I understand a little more now.
> 
> But, I think you mean 3OP? CP means corner permutation..



No, I was using it as short for "Classic Pochmann" because I was being lazy and I hoped that the context would make sense despite the overloaded abbreviation.

I'll fix the OP.


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## *LukeMayn* (Dec 6, 2008)

yay o.0
many post's since I checked
until I get better at freestyle, I'm using M2 edges + classic pochmann corners
no success yet


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