# YuXin/FanXin Timer Now Illegal



## camcuber (May 7, 2016)

I received this email from SpeedStacks today and it seems legitimate. I asked for more information about the specific violation. Thoughts?

"It has come to our attention that your company is advertising a cubing / sport stacking timer for sale on:

https://speedcubeshop.com/products/yuxin-timer?variant=9048336005 https://speedcubeshop.com/products/fanxin-speedcubing-timer?variant=7726238405

The Yuxin and Fanxin Timers you are offering are an illegal copy Timer that violates our company’s intellectual property rights. We can provide more details pertaining to the specific patent violation. Prior to involving our lawyers, I am writing to ask that you remove these images from all websites and other online platforms and that you immediately cease all sales of those items and destroy any remaining inventory. Failure to do so is likely to bring legal action from our company. 

If you are interested in purchasing legitimate products from us, we would be willing to discuss that with you once the offending products are removed and destroyed.

We hope you will appreciate that this is an extremely serious matter affecting Speed Stacks’ intellectual property rights. Please let us know how you would like to proceed. 

Larry Goers CEO, Speed Stacks, Inc."


----------



## Ordway Persyn (May 7, 2016)

interesting, does speedstacks still have an active patent or are these just too familiar looking? the fanxin does look a lot like the speedstack now that I look at it.


----------



## camcuber (May 7, 2016)

I am awaiting Larry's response about the specific violation that he is referring to as well as proof to that violation. I'll keep this thread updated!


----------



## DTCuber (May 7, 2016)

Hmmm... Interesting. Keep us posted!


----------



## MoyuFTW (May 7, 2016)

Oh this is not good? It'd be a pity to see your company lose stock/money... This is interesting though, from what I found, I don't think the patent applies to speedcubing, maybe. But what do I know about patents.... nothing really. I hope it all works out smoothly for you.


----------



## IamSpeedcubing (May 8, 2016)

Wow... I feel bad for you... I love your company and don't want it to be hurt financially.


----------



## Loiloiloi (May 8, 2016)

Turns out they patented the word "Timer" here come the lawsuits


----------



## IamSpeedcubing (May 8, 2016)

Oh, so SpeedStacks turned into Vcubes? Well, at least their quality is good.


----------



## MoyuFTW (May 8, 2016)

Loiloiloi said:


> Turns out they patented the word "Timer" here come the lawsuits


Oh wow. That would be funny except they're filing lawsuits now...


----------



## Loiloiloi (May 8, 2016)

MoyuFTW said:


> Oh wow. That would be funny except they're filing lawsuits now...



That's a shame. Seems like they just want a monopoly, hope their lawsuits don't succeed. If the products were really so similar, reviewers/speedcubers would all just recommend/use the Yuxin timer, since it's the cheapest of all 3. Obviously there's differences and Yuxin/Fanxin just trying to make a good timer for speedstackers/speedcubers to use.


----------



## DTCuber (May 9, 2016)

Loiloiloi said:


> That's a shame. Seems like they just want a monopoly, hope their lawsuits don't succeed. If the products were really so similar, reviewers/speedcubers would all just recommend/use the Yuxin timer, since it's the cheapest of all 3. Obviously there's differences and Yuxin/Fanxin just trying to make a good timer for speedstackers/speedcubers to use.



Speedcubeshop has been concurrently selling SpeedStacks products and Fanxin/Yuxin timers for a while. I wonder why this issue is brought up now...


----------



## tiramisu (May 9, 2016)

Because they can. That said the 2 timers are a pretty blatant ripoff. They don't even offer Cubing functionality 

There is probably a good opportunity for a real cube timer


----------



## Loiloiloi (May 9, 2016)

tiramisu said:


> Because they can. That said the 2 timers are a pretty blatant ripoff. They don't even offer Cubing functionality
> 
> There is probably a good opportunity for a real cube timer



The speedstacks timer doesn't offer Cubing functionality either. Also, how is the domination of the market by one company a good thing for anyone except that company? If the timers are such a blatant rip off, what makes them a rip off? There are very distinct differences, many people choose the other timers because they don't require an obscure battery type, other differences like sounds being played when you complete a solve, different shape of timer, etc.


----------



## mark49152 (May 9, 2016)

Whether there's a patent infringement is for the lawyers to decide, but Speedstacks are within their rights to try to defend their business. Patents exist for good reason. Consumers often don't care because they want more choice or cheaper stuff, but if you depended on your patented product to put food on your kids' table, you wouldn't want it ripped off either.


----------



## Loiloiloi (May 9, 2016)

mark49152 said:


> Whether there's a patent infringement is for the lawyers to decide, but Speedstacks are within their rights to try to defend their business. Patents exist for good reason. Consumers often don't care because they want more choice or cheaper stuff, but if you depended on your patented product to put food on your kids' table, you wouldn't want it ripped off either.


If they cared that much about their "patented product that puts food on their kids' tables" they would have known about their competitors timers which have been out for over a year. Typically if someone "blatantly" steals your product you would want to say something as soon as you find out, not let them sell your stolen product for a year and then decide to sue them.


----------



## IamSpeedcubing (May 9, 2016)

Speedstacks is just being greedy. At least they haven't turned into moyu yet and started releasing new timers every week.


----------



## stoic (May 9, 2016)

Loiloiloi said:


> The speedstacks timer doesn't offer Cubing functionality either. Also, how is the domination of the market by one company a good thing for anyone except that company? If the timers are such a blatant rip off, what makes them a rip off? There are very distinct differences, many people choose the other timers because they don't require an obscure battery type, other differences like sounds being played when you complete a solve, different shape of timer, etc.


"Domination of the market" seems a bit strong. Unless I'm mistaken, the "market" consists of basically a single product and only exists because of speedstacks taking the trouble and financial risk to develop it. If some KO (or alleged-KO) company improves on the design marginally by eg changing the battery type it doesn't mean they now own the intellectual property.

But hey, I'm no lawyer.


----------



## Loiloiloi (May 9, 2016)

stoic said:


> "Domination of the market" seems a bit strong. Unless I'm mistaken, the "market" consists of basically a single product and only exists because of speedstacks taking the trouble and financial risk to develop it. If some KO (or alleged-KO) company improves on the design marginally by eg changing the battery type it doesn't mean they now own the intellectual property.
> 
> But hey, I'm no lawyer.


How can the market consist of a single product if there is competiton? And Yuxin/Fanxin don't also take a financial risk? There are substantial differences between the products, I listed multiple, not just battery type.


----------



## aolong boy (May 9, 2016)

Loiloiloi said:


> That's a shame. Seems like they just want a monopoly, hope their lawsuits don't succeed. If the products were really so similar, reviewers/speedcubers would all just recommend/use the Yuxin timer, since it's the cheapest of all 3. Obviously there's differences and Yuxin/Fanxin just trying to make a good timer for speedstackers/speedcubers to use.



The reason people buy Speedstacks is because they are competition legal.


----------



## stoic (May 9, 2016)

Loiloiloi said:


> How can the market consist of a single product if there is competiton?


Well, the market for speedstacks-type timers that pretty much look and work like speedstacks timers exists because of the existence of speedstacks timers.


Loiloiloi said:


> And Yuxin/Fanxin don't also take a financial risk?


Not to the same degree, no.


Loiloiloi said:


> There are substantial differences between the products, I listed multiple, not just battery type.


Like I say, I'm not a lawyer. I guess some of them will now be employed to test that theory.


----------



## Loiloiloi (May 9, 2016)

aolong boy said:


> The reason people buy Speedstacks is because they are competition legal.


You don't supply your own timer at competitions


----------



## Loiloiloi (May 9, 2016)

stoic said:


> Well, the market for speedstacks-type timers that pretty much look and work like speedstacks timers exists because of the existence of speedstacks timers.
> 
> Not to the same degree, no.
> 
> Like I say, I'm not a lawyer. I guess some of them will now be employed to test that theory.


It's not a market for "speedstacks-type timers" it's a market for Cubing timers that exists so that Cubers can record their times accurately without having to use a phone or computer

And why don't they take a risk to the same degree? You didn't explain at all.

You don't have to be a lawyer to have an opinion. I'm not trying to make a legal argument, and you keep bringing up the fact that this isn't a court to try to nullify my issues with this.


----------



## stoic (May 10, 2016)

Loiloiloi said:


> It's not a market for "speedstacks-type timers" it's a market for Cubing timers that exists so that Cubers can record their times accurately without having to use a phone or computer


Yes, there is a wider market for timing devices generally. It might be possible to design a two-handed stopwatch, for example, that would serve a similar purpose without potentially infringing someone else's design. In terms of cubing timers, that seemingly hasn't happened yet.


Loiloiloi said:


> And why don't they take a risk to the same degree? You didn't explain at all.


Because there's clearly a much higher hurdle in terms of risk to design, prototype, manufacture, distribute and sell a brand-new product than there is in (allegedly) copying someone else's idea and shaving a bit off the margin.


Loiloiloi said:


> You don't have to be a lawyer to have an opinion. I'm not trying to make a legal argument, and you keep bringing up the fact that this isn't a court to try to nullify my issues with this.


Nah, I'm not trying to nullify your issues in any other way than disagreeing with them, and I thought I'd already disagreed with the point you were making. I'm acutely aware that we're just two clowns talking on the Internet.


----------



## camcuber (May 10, 2016)

Still no updates from Larry as of today.


----------



## Chree (May 10, 2016)

camcuber said:


> Still no updates from Larry as of today.



Any credence to the idea that this whole thing might be a bluff?


----------



## Loiloiloi (May 10, 2016)

Chree said:


> Any credence to the idea that this whole thing might be a bluff?


It's probably convinced quite a few people to purchase Yuxin/Fanxin timers as they are removed from a few cube sites now. Probably the opposite of what Larry intended.


----------



## IamSpeedcubing (May 10, 2016)

aolong boy said:


> The reason people buy Speedstacks is because they are competition legal.


Comp legal? It's not like you bring your own timers to comps anyway. I just feel really bad for Cameron since he will lose quite a bit of money.


----------



## PurpleBanana (May 10, 2016)

IamSpeedcubing said:


> just feel really bad for Cameron since he will lose quite a bit of money.


Only if the other timer company's patent has actually been infringed.


----------



## camcuber (May 11, 2016)

Chree said:


> Any credence to the idea that this whole thing might be a bluff?


It's possible but according to someone on Reddit, they have been conversing with SpeedStacks over the phone about this issue and apparently SpeedStacks was able to prove that the timers are in violation of their patent. Whether this is true or not, it would be nice to have them respond to my 2 follow up emails considering they made it seem like it was such a pressing, sensitive issue. Me having to get updates from Reddit is not professional on their part.


----------



## IamSpeedcubing (May 17, 2016)

I could not agree more.


----------



## Kplasma (Jun 13, 2016)

MoyuFTW said:


> Oh wow. That would be funny except they're filing lawsuits now...



Lel


----------



## lolaloud125 (Aug 23, 2019)

well that sucks the speed stacks timer is more money as of august 2019


----------



## AbsoRuud (Aug 23, 2019)

lolaloud125 said:


> well that sucks the speed stacks timer is more money as of august 2019


This thread is over 3 years old. Please let it rest.


----------

