# Shops to accept Bitcoin/Litecoin?



## Logical101 (Feb 20, 2014)

Lately bitcoin has started to become really popular and it is so easy to pay for things with it and there is no reason that an 8 year old couldn't make a transaction with bitcoin.
Everyone here knows that the vast majority of cubers don't have a credit card or paypal so why shouldn't cube shops accept bitcoin?

It would be easy for the parents of cubers, they could give their child a bit of bitcoin a year to spend on cubes, so they don't have to do the transaction stuff every time a new cube comes out.:tu

Discuss:


----------



## szalejot (Feb 20, 2014)

For me bitcoins are still too unstable to be threaten as real money.
I will say: no.
But just because I do not believe in whole bitcoin market.


----------



## brian724080 (Feb 20, 2014)

Sounds fishy and problematic. I don't see problems with using PayPal.


----------



## Tim Major (Feb 20, 2014)

Logical101 said:


> Everyone here knows that the vast majority of cubers don't have a credit card or paypal so why shouldn't cube shops accept bitcoin?



TIL

Anyway, no, extremely unstable and gimmicky.

I have some random dogecoin though so... pls?


----------



## ~Adam~ (Feb 20, 2014)

Give it a few years.
If the value of bitcoins haven't dropped to zero then maybe.


----------



## qqwref (Feb 20, 2014)

Honestly, for most businesses, Bitcoins are just way too unstable to use as currency. They are more useful as an investment than a store of value, because if Bitcoin loses 20% of its value (or more!) in a day then anyone who has stored all their money in Bitcoins has literally lost 20% of their money. There are other factors which worry me too, like the association with illegal activities, the mining system, and the fact that your money can be stolen/lost irrevocably just based on what happens to digital files.

So yeah, for shops, the big problem is that it's hard to be sure about the value of Bitcoins, and it's also hard to quickly convert them into normal money. Take a look at the price of the same cube on different sites - a lot of shops (especially the Chinese ones) sell cubes for pretty close to their cost, and make relatively little profit on each one. Bitcoins would just make it harder to stay afloat, since what you think is a profit now may turn out to be a big loss when you turn the coins back into $ or Yuan. It's true that some non-cube shops already do accept Bitcoin, but I think the situations there are different - either they don't sell a tangible product (e.g. adult websites), or the shop owners want to invest in Bitcoins by holding onto them and hoping the price will go up, or it's a gimmick to attract the kind of people who use Bitcoins.

PS: I can't believe Dogecoins are worth actual money. Wow.


----------



## mark49152 (Feb 20, 2014)

qqwref said:


> They are more useful as an investment than a store of value, because if Bitcoin loses 20% of its value (or more!) in a day then anyone who has stored all their money in Bitcoins has literally lost 20% of their money.


I would guess some people have made good money on them given that the price went up from something like 30 cents to over $1000 peak...


----------



## ChickenWrap (Feb 20, 2014)

What is wrong with using paypal? You don't have to be 18 to make an account!


----------



## Zarxrax (Feb 20, 2014)

qqwref said:


> Honestly, for most businesses, Bitcoins are just way too unstable to use as currency. They are more useful as an investment than a store of value, because if Bitcoin loses 20% of its value (or more!) in a day then anyone who has stored all their money in Bitcoins has literally lost 20% of their money. There are other factors which worry me too, like the association with illegal activities, the mining system, and the fact that your money can be stolen/lost irrevocably just based on what happens to digital files.
> 
> So yeah, for shops, the big problem is that it's hard to be sure about the value of Bitcoins, and it's also hard to quickly convert them into normal money. Take a look at the price of the same cube on different sites - a lot of shops (especially the Chinese ones) sell cubes for pretty close to their cost, and make relatively little profit on each one. Bitcoins would just make it harder to stay afloat, since what you think is a profit now may turn out to be a big loss when you turn the coins back into $ or Yuan. It's true that some non-cube shops already do accept Bitcoin, but I think the situations there are different - either they don't sell a tangible product (e.g. adult websites), or the shop owners want to invest in Bitcoins by holding onto them and hoping the price will go up, or it's a gimmick to attract the kind of people who use Bitcoins.
> 
> PS: I can't believe Dogecoins are worth actual money. Wow.



Actually, it doesn't have to work like that at all. Many businesses such as overstock.com and tigerdirect.com already accept bitcoin, but do an immediate conversion to USD at the time of the transaction. There is no risk in holding an "unstable" currency that way. It also ends up being way cheaper for the business because bitcoin has no inherent fees, whereas credit card companies or paypal charge rather high fees to process a transaction. When you are on razer-thin margins, those fees mean everything.

And arguments about "association with illegal activity" or "money can be stolen"... come on, how is that any different than actual cash? The us dollar is associated with far more illegal activity on a daily basis than bitcoin is.


----------



## Logical101 (Feb 20, 2014)

ChickenWrap said:


> What is wrong with using paypal? You don't have to be 18 to make an account!



But you need to connect a card to it do you not?

also it would be impossible for v-cube to stop us from using an easy payment method

Stores could accept litecoin that is quite a bit more stable than bitcoin


----------



## Weston (Feb 20, 2014)

It's equally easy to put money into a paypal account.

Parents could easily put a certain amount of money into a paypal account for the child to use each year.


----------



## Zarxrax (Feb 20, 2014)

I personally can not use paypal anymore because they banned my account over a single transaction that is apparently against their terms of service. (I'm not sure exactly how it violates their terms of service, but that's what they say, and I have no recourse).
If anyone ever buys knock-off puzzles or anything like that, those could similarly be against paypals terms of service and get a paypal account banned. Not saying it will happen, but it certainly could.


----------



## Forte (Feb 20, 2014)

qqwref said:


> PS: I can't believe Dogecoins are worth actual money. Wow.


I KNOW, I just learned this a couple days ago


----------



## qqwref (Feb 20, 2014)

Zarxrax said:


> Actually, it doesn't have to work like that at all. Many businesses such as overstock.com and tigerdirect.com already accept bitcoin, but do an immediate conversion to USD at the time of the transaction.


OK, fair enough, but you're not really buying with bitcoin so much as simultaneously selling bitcoin to some other guy (for USD) and buying from the shop (with USD). You end up losing bitcoins and the shop ends up gaining USD, but also some third party has to buy the bitcoins for USD.



Zarxrax said:


> And arguments about "association with illegal activity" [...] come on, how is that any different than actual cash?


Obviously actual cash can be used for illegal activity too, but it's just the history of the thing. Bitcoins have a big public perception of relating to stuff like selling drugs and weapons (remember the big dive it took when Silk Road went down?) so it may have a hard time getting accepted by countries and big institutions. It's certainly more of a problem with the community than with the currency itself, of course.



Zarxrax said:


> And arguments about "money can be stolen" [...] come on, how is that any different than actual cash?


It's different because actual cash, when held electronically, actually has a lot of protections behind it. If you keep a sum of money in your bank, for instance, they have a very strong interest in making sure that money stays there, and so does the government - bank accounts are insured by the FDIC, up to $250k. Or, if you have a credit card or use a service like Paypal, and you get scammed out of money, they can reverse the transaction or remove the debt you incurred. Not so with a decentralized system like Bitcoin. If someone scams you, or something big happens in the Bitcoin economy and you lose coins, there's no big company that will step in and fix it, you have no recourse. You just have to try not to make that mistake again.

And when I talk about money being stolen, I'm also talking about hacking - computer systems are very difficult to secure and most people do not even try (see all the passwords of "password" and "123456" and so on around the world). Since your bitcoin wallet is just data, if someone can hack into your computer, they can take it - and again you have no recourse, unless you somehow track down the hacker and convince them to give it back. This is quite a bit different from something like a bank account or stock portfolio.


----------



## SnipeCube (Feb 21, 2014)

Forte said:


> I KNOW, I just learned this a couple days ago



DogeCoins are awesome. I build a mining rig that get about 900 Kh/S. Spent about $700 originally and in return I have about $1700 of doge coin.


----------



## Logical101 (Feb 21, 2014)

qqwref said:


> And when I talk about money being stolen, I'm also talking about hacking - computer systems are very difficult to secure and most people do not even try (see all the passwords of "password" and "123456" and so on around the world). Since your bitcoin wallet is just data, if someone can hack into your computer, they can take it - and again you have no recourse, unless you somehow track down the hacker and convince them to give it back. This is quite a bit different from something like a bank account or stock portfolio.



Yet you can remove the code from your computer and have them on paper


----------



## TiLiMayor (Feb 21, 2014)

There are so many crypto currencies right now, I couldn't care less.. If you're mining, great, it's virtually free money, but let's be honest, other than exchanging for USD, there are very very few places you could turn your whatever-coins for 'real' goods, it is not of interest for 'real' businesses to receive other currencies.. Of course your favourite mmorpg is accepting crypto coins, they sell virtual goods, and no matter what money they get later as the currency fluctuates, they have nothing to lose, there won't be a significant change in credit card buyers for them anyway.. And as stated by others, there is no licit business receiving some sort of crypto-coin exclusively..
But, if you're not mining, there is nothing better than staying off, this ship has sailed..



SnipeCube said:


> DogeCoins are awesome. I build a mining rig that get about 900 Kh/S. Spent about $700 originally and in return I have about $1700 of doge coin.


This means nothing without a time reference..


----------



## SnipeCube (Feb 21, 2014)

TiLiMayor said:


> This means nothing without a time reference..


Dogecoin has been around since December. I have been mining since early January.


----------



## teller (Feb 21, 2014)

Zarxrax said:


> Actually, it doesn't have to work like that at all. Many businesses such as overstock.com and tigerdirect.com already accept bitcoin, but do an immediate conversion to USD at the time of the transaction. There is no risk in holding an "unstable" currency that way. It also ends up being way cheaper for the business because bitcoin has no inherent fees, whereas credit card companies or paypal charge rather high fees to process a transaction. When you are on razer-thin margins, those fees mean everything.
> 
> And arguments about "association with illegal activity" or "money can be stolen"... come on, how is that any different than actual cash? The us dollar is associated with far more illegal activity on a daily basis than bitcoin is.



I'm glad someone here knows what they're talking about. I would have thought this community would be more ahead of the curve, but it sounds it's stuck at square one, somewhere in 2011.

I have to admit the ease of use is not quite there. As of this writing, I wouldn't trust my Mom with Bitcoin. And someone mentioned that the transactions are irreversible; this is true. Bitcoin isn't for everything. It's cash. But I would totally pay for a cube with Bitcoin from a reputable store.

My solution: wait just a year or two. There are Bitcoin related start-ups firing up all over the place and the development community is extremely vibrant. This is happening, and eventually it will be mainstream. It's kind of like the Internet in 1994.

Here's a really good podcast for those seeking to learn more: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cexawnOlR8


----------



## qqwref (Feb 21, 2014)

Apparently Bitcoins just fell below $100 on Mt. Gox. This kind of thing just shows that it's not (yet?) usable as a long-term store of value.


----------



## SnipeCube (Feb 21, 2014)

qqwref said:


> Apparently Bitcoins just fell below $100 on Mt. Gox. This kind of thing just shows that it's not (yet?) usable as a long-term store of value.



Their numbers fall and jump up all the time. It's just like the stock market.


----------



## Logical101 (Feb 22, 2014)

qqwref said:


> Apparently Bitcoins just fell below $100 on Mt. Gox. This kind of thing just shows that it's not (yet?) usable as a long-term store of value.



There having problems with their software, so you cant withdraw bitcoin from them atm but they say it will be soon fixed


----------



## teller (Feb 22, 2014)

qqwref said:


> Apparently Bitcoins just fell below $100 on Mt. Gox. This kind of thing just shows that it's not (yet?) usable as a long-term store of value.


MtGox is not Bitcoin. MtGox is an exchange that is having issues with their software, just ONE exchange of many worldwide. The media often confuses MtGox, a website, with Bitcoin, a decentralized protocol, probably because MtGox was the first exchange and ignorant media sources often access old and outdated information. In fact, Bitcoin is about $580 as of this writing, regardless of what MtGox says.

It IS volatile, though. That is because it is young and illiquid. It is less volatile than it has been in the past as liquidity has increased. It is in the process of bootstrapping.


----------



## pjk (Feb 22, 2014)

I actually planned to implement BitPay (Bitcoin payment system) into the puzzle shop here, but since I'm living in Thailand at the moment, it is easier said than done to get my account approved. With that said, I do still plan to implement some sort of Bitcoin payment system into the shop soon, speedpuzzles.com.



qqwref said:


> Honestly, for most businesses, Bitcoins are just way too unstable to use as currency. They are more useful as an investment than a store of value, because if Bitcoin loses 20% of its value (or more!) in a day then anyone who has stored all their money in Bitcoins has literally lost 20% of their money. There are other factors which worry me too, like the association with illegal activities, the mining system, and the fact that your money can be stolen/lost irrevocably just based on what happens to digital files.
> 
> So yeah, for shops, the big problem is that it's hard to be sure about the value of Bitcoins, and it's also hard to quickly convert them into normal money. Take a look at the price of the same cube on different sites - a lot of shops (especially the Chinese ones) sell cubes for pretty close to their cost, and make relatively little profit on each one. Bitcoins would just make it harder to stay afloat, since what you think is a profit now may turn out to be a big loss when you turn the coins back into $ or Yuan. It's true that some non-cube shops already do accept Bitcoin, but I think the situations there are different - either they don't sell a tangible product (e.g. adult websites), or the shop owners want to invest in Bitcoins by holding onto them and hoping the price will go up, or it's a gimmick to attract the kind of people who use Bitcoins.
> 
> PS: I can't believe Dogecoins are worth actual money. Wow.


Zarxraz already responded to this, but it is important to note there are tremendous benefits to Bitcoin. It isn't so much the "investment" into the currency, but what can be done with this technology. I'd encourage you to read into it more. I think you'd find it much more interesting if you did that - and with your background I think you could heavily contribute to Bitcoin-related projects (or even start some sort of project on your own). If you're interested, here is a good read.


----------



## teller (Feb 22, 2014)

I thought these videos from the Khan academy were extremely interesting--how it works is actually brilliant:

Nerdy tech stuff about Bitcoin cryptography


----------



## Stefan (Feb 22, 2014)

teller said:


> Bitcoin is about $580 as of this writing



Where can I see that?


----------



## Deleted member 19792 (Feb 22, 2014)

Stefan said:


> Where can I see that?



The link is right here

Also, about PayPal being weird, the biggest lie in the universe is "I accept the terms and conditions"

Also, BitCoin is good, but can be unstable. It jumps waaaaaay to much, and and get quite a bit crazy. 

PS Anyone want to generate me some bitcoin go to my website and activate the javascript


----------



## pjk (Feb 23, 2014)

You can now pay with Bitcoin on speedpuzzles.com. To anyone who pays with Bitcoin in the next month, post in the SpeedPuzzles thread here after placing your order, and you'll get 15% reimbursed on your order.

Paying with Bitcoin is just as easy as any other method, and payments are processed via BitPay.


----------



## Lchu613 (Feb 23, 2014)

strakerak said:


> The link is right here
> 
> Also, about PayPal being weird, the biggest lie in the universe is "I accept the terms and conditions"
> 
> ...


What's your website?


----------



## Logical101 (Feb 23, 2014)

pjk said:


> You can now pay with Bitcoin on speedpuzzles.com. To anyone who pays with Bitcoin in the next month, post in the SpeedPuzzles thread here after placing your order, and you'll get 15% reimbursed on your order.
> 
> Paying with Bitcoin is just as easy as any other method, and payments are processed via BitPay.



next month as in rest of February or next 30 days


----------



## plusCubed (Feb 23, 2014)

SnipeCube said:


> Their numbers fall and jump up all the time. It's just like the stock market.


I think you make a great point here. BitCoin is kind of like company shares that are used to buy and trade, except with a lot more fluctuations. I'm not sure if I'm making a correct comparison, but basically in terms of stability, it would be real currencies > stock market > BitCoin/cryptocurrency.




Stefan said:


> Where can I see that?


Here's a website with trading values at various exchanges: http://bitcoincharts.com/markets/


Anyway, on topic, I think cube shops shouldn't accept BitCoin just yet, reason being its instability. For shops, they wouldn't lose much if they implement a system that automatically trades BitCoin into real currency and updates prices in BitCoins based on real currency value. However, customers who don't know better can lose their money to BitCoin price decreases. If parents give their children BitCoins to spend, the problem is that they can increase in value rapidly one day, and the next day be worth 2 times less. Shops shouldn't promote usage of an unstable currency that can cause customers to lose money.


----------



## stoic (Feb 23, 2014)

teller said:


> Bitcoin is about $580 as of this writing





Stefan said:


> Where can I see that?





strakerak said:


> The link is right here


Showing $629 now - 24 hours later. Volatile indeed


----------



## pjk (Feb 23, 2014)

Logical101 said:


> next month as in rest of February or next 30 days


The next 30 days.



ellwd said:


> Showing $629 now - 24 hours later. Volatile indeed


It is volatile, no doubt, but it has been much more volatile in the past. Look at the price over the last 6 months, or even the last 2 years. There have been peaks, like when the bank in Cyprus closed down, and then when the Chinese exchanges started to take off, etc.

As for utilizing it as a currency: there is no point in not doing it as a merchant. As a seller you'd save a lot on transactions fees, and as a result, you can have either higher profits or you'd pass the profit onto the consumers and reduce your prices. As a buyer, it makes sense to use Bitcoin to support this idea. I think Bitcoin will become a major part of the currency market in the world. With that said, expect US regulation sometime this year.


----------



## stoic (Feb 23, 2014)

pjk said:


> As for utilizing it as a currency: there is no point in not doing it as a merchant. As a seller you'd save a lot on transactions fees, and as a result, you can have either higher profits or you'd pass the profit onto the consumers and reduce your prices. *As a buyer, it makes sense to use Bitcoin to support this idea.*


My bold: I'm not sure you've made that case very clearly. Why? Especially given the downside risks.


----------

