# [Disqualified WR] Jeff Park BLD 17.35 insanely BLD round



## Jaysammey777 (Nov 18, 2017)

what...
http://m.cubecomps.com/competitions/2669/events/16/rounds/3/results


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## bobthegiraffemonkey (Nov 19, 2017)

I assume it was a stupidly easy scramble based on several people getting crazy times.


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## TipsterTrickster (Nov 19, 2017)

wow thats good, 2 18s and all sub 30, wow!


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## newtonbase (Nov 19, 2017)

bobthegiraffemonkey said:


> I assume it was a stupidly easy scramble based on several people getting crazy times.


10/6


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## Jaysammey777 (Nov 19, 2017)

Pyjam said:


> So, WR for Max Hilliard.


Angelo Round 1


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## guysensei1 (Nov 19, 2017)

Did it get DNFed? I heard he had a logo.


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## xyzzy (Nov 19, 2017)

guysensei1 said:


> Did it get DNFed? I heard he had a logo.


And the judges/scramblers didn't notice until after he got a WR-worthy solve? Man, this would really suck.


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## newtonbase (Nov 19, 2017)

Let's hope that common sense prevails.


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## Sajwo (Nov 19, 2017)

newtonbase said:


> Let's hope that common sense prevails.



Common sense tells that he should be DNF'ed


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## WACWCA (Nov 19, 2017)

Ishaan 17.04 DNF by wrong com for last 3c


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## Ordway Persyn (Nov 19, 2017)

Aren't logos legal if they aren't at all distinguished by touch. (e.g. It's printed on the plastic)

E: fixed grammar (I can't english in the morning)


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## turtwig (Nov 19, 2017)

Ordway Persyn said:


> Aren't logos only illegal if they aren't at all distinguished by touch. (e.g. It's printed on the plastic)



3l2) The logo must not be distinguishable by feel for blindfolded events (i.e. no embossings, engravings, or overlay stickers).

The idea is that one can't tell the orientation of the cube by feeling it.


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## mitja (Nov 19, 2017)

Take transparent stickers and put them on the center caps. Problem solved


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## turtwig (Nov 19, 2017)

mitja said:


> Take transparent stickers and put them on the center caps. Problem solved



3j) Puzzles must be clean, and must not have any markings, elevated pieces, damage, or other differences that significantly distinguish any piece from a similar piece. Exception: a logo


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## obelisk477 (Nov 19, 2017)

My thoughts, for whatever its worth:

1) If your cube makes it past the judges and scramblers, you should be able to use it, and you shouldn't be able to be retroactively DNFed for it. Also, no one would be calling for a DNF if it wasn't a record.

2) Someone who is capable of getting WR should know better than to use a logo on their cube for 3BLD


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## turtwig (Nov 19, 2017)

obelisk477 said:


> My thoughts, for whatever its worth:
> 
> 1) If your cube makes it past the judges and scramblers, you should be able to use it, and you shouldn't be able to be retroactively DNFed for it. Also, no one would be calling for a DNF if it wasn't a record.
> 
> 2) Someone who is capable of getting WR should know better than to use a logo on their cube for 3BLD



The record was on his last solve of the day, so presumably it also got past the scramblers on every other solve, and probably also in other competitions (and maybe his previous NAR). 

I'm should sure where I stand on this. On the one hand, I think that if we're consistent with the regulations, the solve should be DNF'd, on the other hand, I remember hearing that Kabyanil Talukdar's WR had some problems, but due to the fact that it was not the competitors fault and that it didn't give him an advantage, they still counted it. A similar argument could be made here (though it is a bit weaker since he should've known about the logo rule).


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## Ollie (Nov 19, 2017)

If the logo was distinguishable, but the solution was rotationless, allow it.

If the logo wasn't distinguishable, then allow it.

Else, DNF.

Edit: rotationless point was nonsense, soz


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## Underwatercuber (Nov 19, 2017)

obelisk477 said:


> My thoughts, for whatever its worth:
> 
> 1) If your cube makes it past the judges and scramblers, you should be able to use it, and you shouldn't be able to be retroactively DNFed for it. Also, no one would be calling for a DNF if it wasn't a record.
> 
> 2) Someone who is capable of getting WR should know better than to use a logo on their cube for 3BLD



1) just because your illegal cube makes it past judges and scramblers doesn’t mean you should get rewarded for it. If I brought a cube that was self solving and it made it past the judges and scamblers doesn’t mean my splcrs should count. They would dnfd it anyway once they noticed it regardless if was a record.

2) that’s the part that would make me personally dnf him even though I know he isn’t doing this to cheat. If this was like some 12 year old kids first comp doing bld and he averages 12 minutes I might let it slide but he knows the regs and should abide by them.



> I remember hearing thatKabyanil Talukdar's WR had some problems,but due to the fact that it was not thecompetitors fault and that it didn't give him an advantage, they still counted it. A similarargument could be made here (though it is abit weaker since he should've known about the logo rule).



Not sure what the story is for that but personally I don’t see this as a “it wasn’t the competitors thought thing. Yeah he might have accidentally grabbed a cube with a logo but it’s 100% his fault for grabbing the cube. You can’t shift blame to the judges and scrambles just because they didn’t catch it. If someone cheats a WR (like that one delegate with clock) they aren’t going to let it slide “because none of the scramblers or judges caught it”. They would dnf him which I assume they will do with Jeff


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## Jaysammey777 (Nov 19, 2017)

I’ve decided this forum site is cancerous.

There’s literally no proof.

Just congratulate the wrs and let the officials do their jobs.


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## Underwatercuber (Nov 19, 2017)

Jaysammey777 said:


> I’ve decided this forum site is cancerous.
> 
> There’s literally no proof.
> 
> Just congratulate the wrs and let the officials do their jobs.


But it is fun to debate and pretend our opinions actually matter  just like taking politics


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## Ordway Persyn (Nov 19, 2017)

Jaysammey777 said:


> I’ve decided this forum site is cancerous.
> 
> There’s literally no proof.
> 
> Just congratulate the wrs and let the officials do their jobs.



And people on other sites wouldn't behave the same way?

If you really think some of these posts are cancerous, then you must have never seen a youtube comment section.

However, people should always assume rumors are false, until proven true.


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## mDiPalma (Nov 19, 2017)

if the regulations are violated, the solve should be 100% DNFd, period.

but we can't expect the wca to actually abide by their own regulations - they've set numerous precedents against that.


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## YouCubing (Nov 19, 2017)

mDiPalma said:


> if the regulations are violated, the solve should be 100% DNFd, period.
> 
> but we can't expect the wca to actually abide by their own regulations - they've set numerous precedents against that.


still salty?


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## Max Cruz (Nov 19, 2017)

This would not be retroactive punishment since the rule was already in place. Rules are put in place to be followed. To ensure a fair playing field and maintain the integrity of the competition, the solve should be a "Did Not Finish."


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## AidanNoogie (Nov 19, 2017)

Max Cruz said:


> This would not be retroactive punishment since the rule was already in place. Rules are put in place to be followed. To ensure a fair playing field and maintain the integrity of the competition, the solve should be a "Did Not Finish."


Agreed.


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## MiaSponseller (Nov 19, 2017)

Jaysammey777 said:


> what...
> http://m.cubecomps.com/competitions/2669/events/16/rounds/3/results


Wow


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## turtwig (Nov 19, 2017)

Well if this isn't going to be a WR, Max Hilliard just got a 17.87
http://cubecomps.com/live.php?cid=2670&cat=16&rnd=2


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## MiaSponseller (Nov 19, 2017)

turtwig said:


> Well if this isn't going to be a WR, Max Hilliard just got a 17.87
> http://cubecomps.com/live.php?cid=2670&cat=16&rnd=2


Dang


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## guysensei1 (Nov 19, 2017)

Jaysammey777 said:


> I’ve decided this forum site is cancerous.
> 
> There’s literally no proof.
> 
> Just congratulate the wrs and let the officials do their jobs.


https://www.reddit.com/r/Cubers/comments/7dxl5i/comment/dq142fn


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## Sajwo (Nov 20, 2017)

They will probably accept it

https://www.facebook.com/WorldCubeAssociation/posts/1642368342451047


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## Max Cruz (Nov 20, 2017)

Sajwo said:


> They will probably accept it
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/WorldCubeAssociation/posts/1642368342451047



I cannot view that page. Would you be kind enough to post the information on the forum?


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## DGraciaRubik (Nov 20, 2017)

Max Cruz said:


> I cannot view that page. Would you be kind enough to post the information on the forum?


The post has been deleted, it was the WR announcement. The fact that they deleted means it probably is still under investigation.


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## AlphaSheep (Nov 20, 2017)

Sajwo said:


> They will probably accept it
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/WorldCubeAssociation/posts/1642368342451047



Posts on Facebook is done by the communications team, whereas deciding on the outcomes of incidents is the job of the regulations committee. They're completely independent groups of people, so seeing something posted to Facebook is certainly no indication of how the what the ruling on an incident will be.


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## Underwatercuber (Nov 20, 2017)




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## oliviervlcube (Nov 20, 2017)

No reaction


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## AlphaSheep (Nov 20, 2017)

Jaysammey777 said:


> I’ve decided this forum site is cancerous.
> 
> There’s literally no proof.
> 
> Just congratulate the wrs and let the officials do their jobs.


Between the communities that I read (this forum, reddit, facebook, and youtube), the comments on this forum are for the most part healthy and civil. I think debate like this is more of a good thing than a bad thing for several reasons but the two most important reasons are:

Bringing up the fact that overlay stickers are not permitted in connection with a high profile incident will make this regulation stick in people's heads. It's great that it's ordinary cubers quoting the relevant regulations to back up statements. If an overlay sticker somehow slips past the delegate and scramblers at a future comp, there's a much higher chance that someone will see it and bring it up. That way, it can ideally be dealt with before it gets to the competitor (best case). I'm sure you're fully aware that delegating is a really tough job, and there are millions of things to check at a competition. It's so easy for one tiny thing to slip through unnoticed, and when those helping out know the regulations well and can spot the small things, it makes a fantastic safety net to prevent problems like this. Incidents like this are what help people remember regulations.
It reminds the WRC that they are accountable to the entire cubing community. You're right that the general public does not necessarily have access to all of the facts, whereas the WRC does do their best to gather all of the facts and view things in the broader context. However, the WRC does still need to be able to convince the general cubing community that is applying the regulations fairly and equally. (I know that the current WRC does a great job of this, and I have a tonne of respect for them and the difficult work that they do)


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## adimare (Nov 20, 2017)

A WR was already awarded to a kid who both knew the scramble he was going to get was solvable in 4 moves and had already seen the exact scramble he'd have to solve. I don't see how the same poeple who decided that was ok would decide not to award Jeff a WR. It'd be unfair to him.


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## qwertycuber (Nov 20, 2017)

https://www.worldcubeassociation.or...garding-an-incident-at-longhorn-cube-day-2017

I guess this settles this debate


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## cuberkid10 (Nov 20, 2017)

adimare said:


> A WR was already awarded to a kid who both knew the scramble he was going to get was solvable in 4 moves and had already seen the exact scramble he'd have to solve. I don't see how the same poeple who decided that was ok would decide not to award Jeff a WR. It'd be unfair to him.


Those are 2 completely different circumstances, with different regulations being broken.


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## Dancing Jules (Nov 20, 2017)

adimare said:


> A WR was already awarded to a kid who both knew the scramble he was going to get was solvable in 4 moves and had already seen the exact scramble he'd have to solve. I don't see how the same poeple who decided that was ok would decide not to award Jeff a WR. It'd be unfair to him.


Wasn't that the case where another person went up to the competitor to tell them about the scramble and the competitor tried to shake them off. So the competitor did their best to follow regulations - IIRC they even told the delegate about it. Why the delegate didn't replace it with an extra, I don't know.

Edit: it was Rami Sbahi: he did report it, he was granted an extra, the extra was a bad solve. The WCA decided to let the original 0.58 count because they did not want to rob him of that easy-scramble opportunity that everyone else at the comp also got, just because of some dumb kid (that he actively tried to push away). A side effect of that event was that different groups of the same round now use different scrambles.


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## turtwig (Nov 20, 2017)

Really sucks for Jeff Park. The situational could've been easily avoided if someone had noticed the logo (though it is also his fault for not noticing). I remember several occasions when someone told me that my cube was not legal, and I was then able to switch it with a legal cube.


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## mDiPalma (Nov 20, 2017)

mDiPalma said:


> if the regulations are violated, the solve should be 100% DNFd, period.
> 
> but we can't expect the wca to actually abide by their own regulations - they've set numerous precedents against that.



quoting my own post in response to what happened.

not that my opinion matters, but i think the way the wca handled this was extremely professional and consistent with their regulations. that surprises me. it was a very good idea to give extra attempts.

extremely unfortunate for Jeff, but he can prob do it again tbh.


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## adimare (Nov 21, 2017)

Dancing Jules said:


> So the competitor did their best to follow regulations - IIRC they even told the delegate about it. Why the delegate didn't replace it with an extra, I don't know.


He didn't tell delegates until after he finished his solve, because he thought that would maximize his chances of getting a world record. This is something he admitted. Had he told them before solving the cube, as he should have, his scramble would have been changed before he made the attempt and he would have had 0 chances of getting a WR.

It's quite surprising that the people who decided all of that was ok have decided it's not ok for Jeff to keep his WR, I hope he gets it soon.


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## Dancing Jules (Nov 21, 2017)

adimare said:


> He didn't tell delegates until after he finished his solve, because he thought that would maximize his chances of getting a world record.



More like, he wanted to give the WCA the chance to decide either way. Which means almost the same, but only almost IMO. 



adimare said:


> It's quite surprising that the people who decided all of that was ok have decided it's not ok for Jeff to keep his WR, I hope he gets it soon.



But Jeff should have known that a cube with an overlay-sticker is not blind-legal. Not reading regulations is Jeff's fault.


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## adimare (Nov 21, 2017)

Dancing Jules said:


> More like, he wanted to give the WCA the chance to decide either way.


That's not what he said:


Coolster01 said:


> Also, the reasons for why I didn't just ask for an extra scramble to begin with are:
> 
> 1. He could've been trolling me, knowing that the delegate had just said that no scramble discussion was allowed.
> 2. *Mainly - I wanted to do the solve first so I could see what I'd get just in case the WCA ends up calling it legal. If I reported it immediately, I'd have no chance at a 0.58, but rather just get that extra scramble. *






Dancing Jules said:


> But Jeff should have known that a cube with an overlay-sticker is not blind-legal. Not reading regulations is Jeff's fault.


Agreed.


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## newtonbase (Nov 21, 2017)

Dancing Jules said:


> But Jeff should have known that a cube with an overlay-sticker is not blind-legal. Not reading regulations is Jeff's fault.


He does know the rules. He was the one who reported the issue to the delegate. He simply forgot to remove the logo from a new cube.


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## greentgoatgal (Nov 21, 2017)

That really sucks


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## porkynator (Nov 21, 2017)

Sad but right decision.
Very nice solve by the way, except for a couple of lockups. Not as nice as Ishaan's 20.02 from a month ago though 

What surprises me about the rule about logos for blind is that I have seen many people submit illegal cubes because "they let me use it at all other comps". This means that many, many times the regulations were not followed. And it happened even with world-class cubers at WC17. Of course if a kind of logo (e.g. QiYi logo for stickerless cubes) is barely noticeable and the competitor doesn't know, this isn't their fault, unless it is clearly stated in the regulations/guidelines.
There is a simple test to tell whether a cube is legal or not: toss it in the air, grab it, put it behind your back and start touching the pieces to try and find the logo. It's easier than it seems: with QiYi logos even people who thought it was impossible found it on first try.


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## mark49152 (Nov 21, 2017)

porkynator said:


> There is a simple test to tell whether a cube is legal or not: toss it in the air, grab it, put it behind your back and start touching the pieces to try and find the logo. It's easier than it seems: with QiYi logos even people who thought it was impossible found it on first try.


Typically some can find it, some can't, and then there's another debate about whether that cube should be legal or not. To avoid subjectivity, ambiguity and wasted time, it's simpler to have the rule that embossed or overlaid logos are disallowed. That would include pretty much any logo on a stickerless cube.


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## Max Cruz (Nov 23, 2017)

I agree with the decision.


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## openseas (Jan 21, 2021)

adimare said:


> He didn't tell delegates until after he finished his solve, because he thought that would maximize his chances of getting a world record. This is something he admitted. Had he told them before solving the cube, as he should have, his scramble would have been changed before he made the attempt and he would have had 0 chances of getting a WR.
> 
> It's quite surprising that the people who decided all of that was ok have decided it's not ok for Jeff to keep his WR, I hope he gets it soon.



Just to correct fact & for historical accuracy, we realized there was the logo right after the attempt not before. Then immediately reported to the delegate. Whatever you heard, it's a made up story by somebody not responsible.


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