# Should speed define who is "good" at cubing?



## Johnny (Jan 13, 2014)

Maybe there is a slower cuber that can solve the cube in the fewer moves than most speed solvers. Would that make him/her a good cuber? Is someone who averages about a minute on 3x3 but feels unusually passionate about cubing a good cuber?

I think that speed is a possible determination of who is good at cubing but I think it's overrated. Efficiency is important as well- Minimizing the amount of turns performed is an important aspect. 

But since the whole point of cubing is to have fun, should we determine who is good at cubing by who has the most fun solving?

Just trying to think outside the "if you're over 30/20/15 seconds you are a horrible cuber" box.


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## TDM (Jan 13, 2014)

Johnny said:


> But since the whole point of cubing is to have fun, should we determine who is good at cubing by who has the most fun solving?


Good luck determining who's the best cuber then.

I've never cubed because I want to get faster - instead, getting faster makes me want to cube more. Being able to get faster is what motivates me to practise, even if I don't actually get faster.

I think the whole point about efficiency is that the more efficient you are, the faster you are. Someone who averages a bit less than 50 moves only needs 6 TPS to average 8, but someone like faz who averages 10 TPS and averages less than 8 averages, unless I've calculated incorrectly, over 70 moves ETM. So whilst that does show that efficiency is important to speed, you're right in a way - not many people are good at fewest moves, which requires you to think a lot more.

I don't think speed should define what makes a cuber 'good', because everyone has different opinions on what the word 'good' means. For some people, speed should. I think it's some of everything, and you can't really measure how good someone from is from just their speed, especially as people's speeds often vary between events.


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## Riverdance (Jan 13, 2014)

Speed shouldn't be the determining factor of who's good at cubing. Speed is a factor of who's good at _speed_cubing


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## Johnny (Jan 13, 2014)

Riverdance said:


> Speed shouldn't be the determining factor of who's good at cubing. Speed is a factor of who's good at _speed_cubing



Of course. But it seems like there isn't a big cubing scene outside of speedcubing. I think most people mean "speedcubing" when they say "cubing".


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## Jaysammey777 (Jan 13, 2014)

there are slow people, who are brilliant cubers. It mainly depends on what you bring to the plate. At the same time I wouldn't necessarily say anyone's bad at cubing considering it is a relative term. i.e. Everybody thinks I'm a master at Rubik's cubes... at my school, but here, I'm more of a noob.


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## Noahaha (Jan 13, 2014)

Johnny said:


> Maybe there is a slower cuber that can solve the cube in the fewer moves than most speed solvers.



This is called FMC. It is one of the many official events that is not 3x3. I think you need to be good at _something_ to be a good cuber, whether it's one of the 17 events, or something else that has to do with cubing. Plenty of bad cubers are great people/members of the community. Bob Burton, for example.


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## Benyó (Jan 13, 2014)

if you cause 5 accidents in 7 minutes on the road but feel unusually passionate about driving and have incredible fun, are you a good driver?
timing exists to decide who is better and the best will win. not very complicated


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## XTowncuber (Jan 13, 2014)

Other than speed I can really only think of a few things that would make a cuber good.

1. efficiency (FMC)
2. memory (people who aren't good at speed events but can do epicness while blindfolded)
3. general solving skills (people who can find solutions for unusual puzzles. They generally hang out on twistypuzzles)

but then I still feel like there are people who are good cubers but not covered by this. Brest comes to mind.


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## Jokern (Jan 13, 2014)

Out of 17 official events, 15 of them are sorted solely based on time. Then we have multiblind who first sorts by points, then by time. and finally FMC which just sorts by move count.
Both latter options involve alot more time/work for both organizers and cubers.
The reason being fast is the most popular way to describe how good someone is because it is the easiest one to measure. The favorite thing for everyone is to compete (either with eachother or against oneself).


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## kcl (Jan 13, 2014)

Well, yeah. I mean think about Noah Arthurs. I'm gonna pick on him and say he's bad at 3x3 (not saying I'm good, but I figure he doesn't consider himself fast). He is still an incredibly highly ranked blind solver, and a wonderful member of the community. I would definitely consider him a "good" cuber. This applies to other people as well. Or someone like maybe.. Chris Hardwick. It's not like he's super way fast, but his knowledge of theory and puzzles in general is just awesome. Hopefully you're catching my drift.


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## yoshinator (Jan 14, 2014)

Speed should define who is good at SPEEDcubing at cubing, I don't know, and I don't particularly care.


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## Ninja Storm (Jan 14, 2014)

Well we are on *Speed*solving, did you expect a TwistyPuzzles crowd?


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## Kirjava (Jan 14, 2014)

Kirjava is the best cuber.


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## TMOY (Jan 14, 2014)

XTowncuber said:


> Other than speed I can really only think of a few things that would make a cuber good.
> 
> 1. efficiency (FMC)
> 2. memory (people who aren't good at speed events but can do epicness while blindfolded)
> 3. general solving skills (people who can find solutions for unusual puzzles. They generally hang out on twistypuzzles)



4. puzzle building/modding (people who can create new, original puzzles. Also mostly seen on twistypuzzles)

Speed is one way to tell whether a cuber is good or not, it has the advantage of allowing objective comparisons between cubers (and that's why it's the most used one in competitions). but it's far from being the only possible one.


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## kinch2002 (Jan 14, 2014)

5. Contributions to methodology - e.g. alg finding, thinking about methods/substeps
6. Community support e.g. personal encouragement
7. Leadership contributions e.g. Organisers, those with WCA positions

The problem with this discussion is whether the stated "good cuber" was meant to indicate "a person who is good at cubing" or "cuber who is good for cubing" or both.


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## Escher (Jan 14, 2014)

To answer your question literally... People who are 'good' at cubing in my opinion are people who do good for the scene, through whatever means that might be - teaching new people, breaking speed barriers, organising competitions, helping people get better, being a good ambassador for the sport, etc etc. Mike Erskine is a great example of someone who isn't particularly fast but the UK scene would be very different without him because he's such an awesome and helpful guy. Speedpicker is another example of someone who isn't godlike in terms of speed but the material he's posted over the past year or two has been great for encouraging mindset improvements and expanding the field of deliberate practise for cubing. 

The cubing community gives so much away for free that I think the best measurement is how much people give back themselves, through whatever metrics you want to use. All the rest are just filthy casuals.

Edit: Lol I got ninja'd within 1 minute by Daniel with the first comment similarly to the effect of mine. GG.


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## Dene (Jan 14, 2014)

Define "good" --> get the answer you want.

My definition for good: Delegate lots of fazcomps. Now I'm the best damn cuber around.


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## sneaklyfox (Jan 14, 2014)

I know it's only January, but I nominate this as best thread of the year haha.

My definition of good: Cubing under duress or distraction. (Major sleep deprivation, babies nursing, kids talking, labour pains, etc.) So I'm the best!


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## mark49152 (Jan 14, 2014)

My definition: good at finding opportunities to cube when one should be doing something else more important instead. I'm world class at that.


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## sneaklyfox (Jan 14, 2014)

mark49152 said:


> My definition: good at finding opportunities to cube when one should be doing something else more important instead. I'm world class at that.



Me too! I'm sooo good at cubing!


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## Renslay (Jan 14, 2014)

8. (or n+1.) Knowledge on the mathematical backgrounds, theories and computational algorithms.


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## DAoliHVAR (Jan 14, 2014)

cubing is a big term 
speedcubing is one thing
fmc is another 
solving big complex puzzles nobody has ever seen before is a different thing
for example,super antonio vivaldi can solve a 3x3 in like 2 minutes,but he can also solve a bandaged circle axel mixup plus 11x11
so its not really fair to call him a bad cuber..


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## ILMZS20 (Jan 14, 2014)

well you can be a good "cuber" without being fast hen you can solve every type of cubes/cuboids without even really thinking about it. but if you are "speedcuber" then it is about the speed in my opinion, cause that is what its all about. for example i average like 19 seconds im like a decent speedcuber i guess, but nothing to special. but when it comes to overall cubing im not that great cause i only do wca puzzles and nothing like shape shifters and all that. crazybadcuber for example is also not the best speedcuber ( i think he gets like 16-17 seconds) but an awesome "cuber" cause he can solve the craziest puzzles no problem.


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## Sajwo (Jan 14, 2014)

The fastest cuber is the best cuber


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## Antonie faz fan (Jan 14, 2014)

if whe are talking about cubers and not speedcubers I think it depends who us the most helpful.


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## cmhardw (Jan 14, 2014)

My perception on this topic is that lots of people who are really fast at speedcubing (pick an event) are very vocal on this forum, so being fast ends up being pretty important. Being "slow" seems to be a term used half-jokingly as an insult, or also as a term to dismiss someone's ideas on cubing. Sadly I think it's always been this way, at least as long as I've been cubing. I've been in both the "fast" cubers camp and the "slow" cubers camp, so I've seen it on both ends. There are lots of us "slow" cubers who still really enjoy cubing, but our voices are not heard as loudly as those who are "fast", those who steer the direction of a lot of the conversations. Just enjoy what you do, and if your enjoyment of cubing doesn't fit the vocal "fast" cubers' mold, then don't worry about it.


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## elrog (Jan 14, 2014)

Benyó said:


> if you cause 5 accidents in 7 minutes on the road but feel unusually passionate about driving and have incredible fun, are you a good driver?



I nominate this for funniest post of the year.


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## Escher (Jan 15, 2014)

Benyó said:


> if you cause 5 accidents in 7 minutes on the road but feel unusually passionate about driving and have incredible fun, are you a good driver?
> timing exists to decide who is better and the best will win. not very complicated



Sure you aren't the best driver, but hey, maybe your love of driving so passionately will inspire millions to improve their own 

Anyway, we've had people in the community who were very fast and 'good' at solving, but have had a very negative impact. How you phrase the question makes it as complicated or simple as you like...


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## Dene (Jan 15, 2014)

cmhardw said:


> My perception on this topic is that lots of people who are really fast at speedcubing (pick an event) are very vocal on this forum, so being fast ends up being pretty important. Being "slow" seems to be a term used half-jokingly as an insult, or also as a term to dismiss someone's ideas on cubing. Sadly I think it's always been this way, at least as long as I've been cubing. I've been in both the "fast" cubers camp and the "slow" cubers camp, so I've seen it on both ends. There are lots of us "slow" cubers who still really enjoy cubing, but our voices are not heard as loudly as those who are "fast", those who steer the direction of a lot of the conversations. Just enjoy what you do, and if your enjoyment of cubing doesn't fit the vocal "fast" cubers' mold, then don't worry about it.



Lol I can't imagine anyone disregarding your input to any cubing discussion.


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## CubeSurfer (Jan 15, 2014)

When it comes to speedcubing alone, obviously the fastest person is the best. Now going back to having the most fun while cubing, in my personal opinion without having the super fast people to show us that it is possible I would not have as much fun striving to become faster. Hope that made sense?


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## Bob (Mar 11, 2014)

Noahaha said:


> This is called FMC. It is one of the many official events that is not 3x3. I think you need to be good at _something_ to be a good cuber, whether it's one of the 17 events, or something else that has to do with cubing. Plenty of bad cubers are great people/members of the community. Bob Burton, for example.



Noah, I just saw this...


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## Noahaha (Mar 11, 2014)

Bob said:


> Noah, I just saw this...



Finally! I've been waiting for so long.


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## Weston (Mar 11, 2014)

Noahaha said:


> Finally! I've been waiting for so long.


Bob has had way more world records than you. How can he possibly be bad?


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## deathbypapercutz (Mar 11, 2014)

Noahaha said:


> Finally! I've been waiting for so long.



hahaha Noah you're awesome 

And just to make this post worthwhile, I'll throw my opinion out there. This discussion is about what being "good at cubing" comprises. There are two salient parts of that phrase: "good" and "cubing". I would consider the "cubing" part to cover any sort of twisty puzzle event, be it 3x3 speedsolve, bigcubes, FMC, or yes, even feet. As for the "good" part, I think being "good" at some activity implies that you are ranked highly among people who partake in that activity by whatever metric that community has decided to use. In this case, that corresponds to some level of WCA ranking, or regularly posting times that correspond to some level of WCA ranking.

That is, if we were talking about the 3x3 speedsolve, I would use the terms "good" and "fast" interchangeably, and if we were talking about FMC, I would use "good" and "finds a lot of really short/clever solutions" interchangeably.

For those of you who are arguing that we might also consider those who are contributing the most to the community or those who are having the most fun, that's very noble, but it isn't strictly cubing. If somebody were very active in organizing well-run competitions, I would say that they were good at organizing competitions, not that they were good at cubing. If somebody had a lot of fun cubing, I would say that they were, well, having a lot of fun cubing. Similarly, if a man with no legs were a great soccer coach and very active in his local soccer community and found a cure for AIDS and had a pot of gold up his butt, he still wouldn't be a good soccer player. Sorry.

[EDIT: that's just how I view the definition of being "good" at something. Other people may have different definitions. But in the end, I don't really care whether people think I'm good at cubing, and neither should you. To me, this is just a purely intellectual discussion on the niceties of the definition of the word "good".]


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## IRNjuggle28 (Mar 11, 2014)

To the people mentioning Bob and Brest, there is a big difference between being good at cubing and being extremely knowledgeable about cubing. Just because someone is a brilliant contributor to the cubing community doesn't mean they're great at cubing. I doubt Verdes, or the owners of Dayan and Moyu, are world class.

You also have to look at your standards of "fast." A 1 minute solver on 3x3 is in the 99th percentile if you are looking at people in general. Just because you're not world class doesn't mean you aren't good. I don't know where people got the idea that you're not a good solver if you're not sub 10. At most, there are 100 people in the world who average under 10. (and don't look at the PBs. Look at the AVERAGE averages.) 

Proposing measuring how good you are as a cuber by how much fun you have is pretty silly. Come on.


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## newtonbase (Mar 11, 2014)

There is a difference between being good AT cubing and being good FOR cubing. I'm rubbish at cubing as I'm slow, have a high move count and can only solve 3x3 but I've got 5 other people interested in it so I can argue that I'm good for cubing.


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## tacgnol (Mar 11, 2014)

I guess I'll weigh in on this and take the whole thing of how you're even going to define "good" at all. The problem I see with even asking what makes someone good at cubing arises where one doesn't know the definition of "good" in any sense. For example, someone who can't solve the 3x3 will think that someone who can in less than 5 minutes is good. that person will find someone who's just a little over a minute good, and then this continues on until you get to someone who can only see, say, the top 100, or perhaps just 10 cubers in the world as "good". So there's that. To people who will say that I just sound like an idiot, give me a solid threshold for "good" in terms of speedsolving (for the sake of it, let's go with 3x3, if someone chooses to do so). good. not "_exceptionally_ good" or "_oh my holy handgrenade how did you do that_ good". Of course, this same concept would apply to any way you're trying to judge how good someone is, including FMC and BLD capabilities. 

Alternatively, one could choose to ignore the whole thing of who's good and who's not, and just enjoy it for what it is. One thing that I've always been worried about is the existence of a "holier-than-thou" attitude amongst people in the community. Be it world record holders, or just top ranked solvers. I might be just overthinking things, but I know it happens in other communities. 

Sorry for the bite-sized rant type dealio, but it's sort of almost relevant i suppose.


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## AFatTick (Mar 24, 2014)

If you are "speed cubing", I would assume that speed is better? If you are just a puzzle solver, idk.


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## IRNjuggle28 (Mar 24, 2014)

AFatTick said:


> If you are "speed cubing", I would assume that speed is better? If you are just a puzzle solver, idk.



If you're a puzzle solver, then a reasonable basis for judgement would be the difficulty of the puzzle.


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## IRNjuggle28 (Mar 24, 2014)

tacgnol said:


> Alternatively, one could choose to ignore the whole thing of who's good and who's not, and just enjoy it for what it is. One thing that I've always been worried about is the existence of a "holier-than-thou" attitude amongst people in the community. Be it world record holders, or just top ranked solvers. I might be just overthinking things, but I know it happens in other communities.



It's happened some in this one also. People can ignore it, but people definitely do have pretty strong biases, and a lot of it is linked to how good you are at cubing, or at how your forum posts usually are. If Stephan and RJ said the exact same thing on the exact same thread, I guarantee the reactions to it would be completely different.


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