# Top 10 Fastest Speedcubers



## MoyuDayanLover3 (Aug 28, 2017)

This is who I believe are the 10 fastest cubers in the world.
10. Patrick Ponce
9. Phillip Weyer
8. Sebastian Weyer
7. Lucas Etter
6. Mats Valk
5. Max Park
4. Seung Hyuk Nahm
3. Kian Mansour
2. Bill Wang
1. Feliks Zemdegs
If you disagree, tell me why. I'll try to convince you otherwise, though I'm not 100% sure about some of the placements, so then I'll be able to correct my list.


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## FastCubeMaster (Aug 28, 2017)

Jayden McNeil?!


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## shadowslice e (Aug 28, 2017)

At just 3x3? Seems kinda disingenuous to say fastest speedcubers when it only takes into account one event.

Also, is the list supposed to be in order? Because then I'm pretty sure that there are a few in the wrong positions as well.

It would also help if you explained what this list is for.


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## Malkom (Aug 28, 2017)

shadowslice e said:


> At just 3x3? Seems kinda disingenuous to say fastest speedcubers when it only takes into account one event.
> 
> Also, is the list supposed to be in order? Because then I'm pretty sure that there are a few in the wrong positions as well.
> 
> It would also help if you explained what this list is for.


There's no decent metric to see who's "objectively" fastest, for example who is fastest, Juan Pablo or Jayden Mcneil? Jaydens sum of ranks is way lower than Juan Pablos, but Juan Pablo is extremely dominant and by far the fastest at megaminx whereas Jayden is "just" fast at every event.


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## Gomorrite (Aug 28, 2017)

Assuming this is about 3x3 and about home times (otherwise Kian Mansour makes no sense), I don't understand how is this a matter of "belief". The fastest will be whoever has faster times, not whoever we believe is the fastest, and since many cubers share their personal bests, we can easily know who are the fastest.

I know for a fact that Kian's PBs are worse than Seung's and Max's, so it doesn't make sense to put him third. About Bill, I have no clue what are his home PBs.

And very like Sebastian is not top 10 (he has a very good official avg5, but he is usually not that fast).


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## MoyuDayanLover3 (Aug 28, 2017)

shadowslice e said:


> At just 3x3? Seems kinda disingenuous to say fastest speedcubers when it only takes into account one event.
> 
> Also, is the list supposed to be in order? Because then I'm pretty sure that there are a few in the wrong positions as well.
> 
> It would also help if you explained what this list is for.


I meant fastest 3x3 speedcubers. What is wrong? I just wanted to have a discussion about who is the fastest and whatnot, it seems like a fun topic to talk about.



FastCubeMaster said:


> Jayden McNeil?!


What's his average?



Malkom said:


> There's no decent metric to see who's "objectively" fastest, for example who is fastest, Juan Pablo or Jayden Mcneil? Jaydens sum of ranks is way lower than Juan Pablos, but Juan Pablo is extremely dominant and by far the fastest at megaminx whereas Jayden is "just" fast at every event.


I meant at 3x3.



Gomorrite said:


> Assuming this is about 3x3 and about home times (otherwise Kian Mansour makes no sense), I don't understand how is this a matter of "belief". The fastest will be whoever has faster times, not whoever we believe is the fastest, and since many cubers share their personal bests, we can easily know who are the fastest.
> 
> I know for a fact that Kian's PBs are worse than Seung's and Max's, so it doesn't make sense to put him third. About Bill, I have no clue what are his home PBs.
> 
> And very like Sebastian is not top 10 (he has a very good official avg5, but he is usually not that fast).


Global average is more important than avg 5/12/50. Kian's pb average of 1000 is 6.55, I believe, and Max's is 6.59. Also, Bill Wang's pb's are on the info section of his page (cuboy63). As for Sebastian, I don't know much about him, so you might be right.


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## Gomorrite (Aug 28, 2017)

MoyuDayanLover3 said:


> Global average is more important than avg 5/12/50. Kian's pb average of 1000 is 6.55, I believe, and Max's is 6.59. Also, Bill Wang's pb's are on the info section of his page (cuboy63). As for Sebastian, I don't know much about him, so you might be right.


I disagree, I think "global average" is a way too fuzzy concept. What matters is what you can do at your best moment, and while avg5 or avg12 are too luck-dependent, avg1000 is too dependent on timing yourself while being tired (or refusing to because you are) or just not in your best day. I think avg50 and avg100, which is what can be done in a sigle short session, are the best metric.

So about Bill Wang, I just stalked his FB page and you seem to be right. I didn't know he was that fast at home.

So pushing back Kian to 5th place, I think it could be like this:

1. Feliks
2. Seung
3. Bill
4. Max
5. Kian


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## DGCubes (Aug 28, 2017)

There are a lot of problems with trying to decide the objectively best speedcubers, even if it is just in 3x3. 

Here's an example: say someone averages 10 seconds at home but gets nervous every competition and gets 15 second averages. Someone else averages 12 seconds at home and is able to control their nerves very well in competition, and therefore averages 12 seconds officially as well. Who is the better cuber? Some people would think it's obviously the 10-second solver because he/she is objectively faster than the other. People with this opinion don't place too much importance on actual competition performance. Others would say it's the 12-second solver, because, when it all comes down to it, he/she is able to beat the other in a competitive setting, which is a crucial aspect of speedcubing. These people place more importance on official results.

You may strongly believe one side or the other, which is perfectly fine, but it's important to realize that not everyone feels the same. I'm pretty split, personally. Interesting discussion, nonetheless.


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## MoyuDayanLover3 (Aug 28, 2017)

MoyuDayanLover3 said:


> G
> 
> lobal average is more important than avg 5/12/50. Kian's pb average of 1000 is 6.55, I believe, and Max's is 6.59. Also, Bill Wang's pb's are on the info section of his page (cuboy69).





Gomorrite said:


> I disagree, I think "global average" is a way too fuzzy concept. What matters is what you can do at your best moment, and while avg5 or avg12 are too luck-dependent, avg1000 is too dependent on timing yourself while being tired (or refusing to because you are) or just not in your best day. I think avg50 and avg100, which is what can be done in a sigle short session, are the best metric.
> 
> So about Bill Wang, I just stalked his FB page and you seem to be right. I didn't know he was that fast at home.
> 
> ...


Well, I think 6.34 average of 50 and 6.41 average of 100 is pretty good. And Kian has a sub-4, 5.48 average, and 6.04 average of 12 as well.



DGCubes said:


> There are a lot of problems with trying to decide the objectively best speedcubers, even if it is just in 3x3.
> 
> Here's an example: say someone averages 10 seconds at home but gets nervous every competition and gets 15 second averages. Someone else averages 12 seconds at home and is able to control their nerves very well in competition, and therefore averages 12 seconds officially as well. Who is the better cuber? Some people would think it's obviously the 10-second solver because he/she is objectively faster than the other. People with this opinion don't place too much importance on actual competition performance. Others would say it's the 12-second solver, because, when it all comes down to it, he/she is able to beat the other in a competitive setting, which is a crucial aspect of speedcubing. These people place more importance on official results.
> 
> You may strongly believe one side or the other, which is perfectly fine, but it's important to realize that not everyone feels the same. I'm pretty split, personally. Interesting discussion, nonetheless.


Well, there are many reasons you can't use comp results as a support for your times, one because some people don't even go to competitions, some cubers are pressurized more than others, you do a lot more solves at home, etc.. Though I do get your point.


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## Gomorrite (Aug 28, 2017)

MoyuDayanLover3 said:


> Well, I think 6.34 average of 50 and 6.41 average of 100 is pretty good.


Obviously it is pretty good. But Seung has 6.09 Ao50 and Max a 6.16 Ao50 and 6.29 Ao100. So both are faster than him.


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## Sajwo (Aug 28, 2017)

Hi

This is the list of top10 fastest speedcubers.


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## shadowslice e (Aug 28, 2017)

Sajwo said:


> Hi
> 
> This is the list of top10 fastest *3x3 solvers*.


ftfy


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## turtwig (Aug 28, 2017)

MoyuDayanLover3 said:


> some cubers are pressurized more than others



It might sound harsh, but that's really their problem. Ultimately, what difference does it make how fast you are at home if you can't ever prove it at a competition?


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## MoyuDayanLover3 (Aug 29, 2017)

Gomorrite said:


> Obviously it is pretty good. But Seung has 6.09 Ao50 and Max a 6.16 Ao50 and 6.29 Ao100. So both are faster than him.


But still, it's really not that Kian is slower, it's just that Roux is a more consistent method rather than a method to be used for short bursts of speed like CFOP.



Sajwo said:


> Hi
> 
> This is the list of top10 fastest speedcubers.


Officially.


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## JustAnotherGenericCuber (Aug 29, 2017)

MoyuDayanLover3 said:


> But still, it's really not that Kian is slower, it's just that Roux is a more consistent method rather than a method to be used for short bursts of speed like CFOP.


Well, it is that kian is slower as proven earlier, and would you say that the top cfop solvers are inconsistent?


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## MoyuDayanLover3 (Aug 29, 2017)

turtwig said:


> It might sound harsh, but that's really their problem. Ultimately, what difference does it make how fast you are at home if you can't ever prove it at a competition?


Are you honestly saying it's fair when for some really fast cubers, people just turn their heads another way when they see them, and for others, there are hundreds of glares upon them, saying 'Get the World Record.' That would slow down anybody.



turtwig said:


> It might sound harsh, but that's really their problem. Ultimately, what difference does it make how fast you are at home if you can't ever prove it at a competition?


And like I said before, what if you've never been to a competition? Are you saying CriticalCubing is slow?



JustAnotherGenericCuber said:


> Well, it is that kian is slower as proven earlier, and would you say that the top cfop solvers are inconsistent?


No, since his average of 1000 is faster than Max Park's, and yes, CFOP solvers are less consistent. This is because it's easier to stay fast with Roux because of the low move count.


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## Sajwo (Aug 29, 2017)

MoyuDayanLover3 said:


> No, since his average of 1000 is faster than Max Park's, and yes, CFOP solvers are less consistent. This is because it's easier to stay fast with Roux because of the low move count.



Cubing is not all about speed, but also about handling the pressure on competitions. That's why Max Park is World Champion and Kian is only Canadian NR holder. People at home also tend to use keyboard, delete DNFs, not count +2s etc


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## GuRoux (Aug 29, 2017)

Kian has been to 5 competitions and Feliks has been to 66 competitions. official results are greatly skewed by how often the competitors compete. so that's something to think about if you rank the "best" cubers solely on official rankings. best official averages don't really show who are doing the best in competition.


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## MoyuDayanLover3 (Aug 29, 2017)

Sajwo said:


> Cubing is not all about speed, but also about handling the pressure on competitions. That's why Max Park is World Champion and Kian is only Canadian NR holder. People at home also tend to use keyboard, delete DNFs, not count +2s etc


Well, however you think about it, Kian is really fast.



GuRoux said:


> Kian has been to 5 competitions and Feliks has been to 66 competitions. official results are greatly skewed by how often the competitors compete. so that's something to think about if you rank the "best" cubers solely on official rankings. best official averages don't really show who are doing the best in competition.


Exactly, which is why global averages are more important.


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## Ollie (Aug 29, 2017)

Do podiums contribute to the "speed" of a competitor? I.e. does the number of wins at Worlds, Nationals, Asian or European champs matter in your definition of fast?

Do previous records matter? I.e. Max Park is a former 3x3x3 average world record holder, Bill Wang is not.

Another clickbaity discussion topic with no analysis done on the OP's part.


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## MoyuDayanLover3 (Aug 29, 2017)

Ollie said:


> Do podiums contribute to the "speed" of a competitor? I.e. does the number of wins at Worlds, Nationals, Asian or European champs matter in your definition of fast?
> 
> Do previous records matter? I.e. Max Park is a former 3x3x3 average world record holder, Bill Wang is not.
> 
> Another clickbaity discussion topic with no analysis done on the OP's part.


I'm judging based on unofficial times, and global averages. So none of that I'm taking into account. Also, I have done analysis. But that's not the point. I made this post because I wanted to have a fun discussion about the top speed cubers.


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## Isaac Lai (Aug 29, 2017)

We know who the fast speedcubers are. And there are more than 10. Official results are the standard metric for most people to determine who is fast, and this is why competitions exist. You can choose to factor in unofficial times, but not everyone is going to agree with you, and this will just result in more endless, meaningless discussion that serves absolutely no purpose. Speedcubing is measured qualitatively, so I think it's pretty obvious who is faster and who is not.


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## MoyuDayanLover3 (Aug 29, 2017)

Isaac Lai said:


> We know who the fast speedcubers are. And there are more than 10. Official results are the standard metric for most people to determine who is fast, and this is why competitions exist. You can choose to factor in unofficial times, but not everyone is going to agree with you, and this will just result in more endless, meaningless discussion that serves absolutely no purpose. Speedcubing is measured qualitatively, so I think it's pretty obvious who is faster and who is not.


Apparently not to some people. Like the people that think Max is definitely faster than Bill (6.59 avg 1000-6.52 avg 1000).


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## turtwig (Aug 29, 2017)

MoyuDayanLover3 said:


> Are you honestly saying it's fair when for some really fast cubers, people just turn their heads another way when they see them, and for others, there are hundreds of glares upon them, saying 'Get the World Record.' That would slow down anybody.



I guess you could say it's not fair, but it's what they have to deal with. It would also make sense that cubers of the same skill get a similar amount of attention, so it's not like some of them just get a 'pass'. It's unfortunate that some people can't perform very well in competitions, but speedcubing is a _competitive_ activity, so I think the ability to show your skills at _competitions_ is very important and not something that should just be treated as an excuse for having bad competition times



MoyuDayanLover3 said:


> And like I said before, what if you've never been to a competition? Are you saying CriticalCubing is slow?



Of course if you don't go to many competitions, that's a valid reason for having worse competition results. I would say that it's the biggest if not only reason that we should take unofficial results into account.



MoyuDayanLover3 said:


> Apparently not to some people. Like the people that think Max is definitely faster than Bill (6.59 avg 1000-6.52 avg 1000).



It sounds like you're being pretty condescending to the people who disagree with you. There's a great case to be made the Max is a lot faster than Bill, for example, Bill's competition PB is 7.01 while Max gets sub-7 averages on a regular basis. Their average of 1000's only differ by 0.07, and according to his profile page, Bill's PB ao100 is 6.43 while Max recently uploaded a 6.30 ao100 (which is probably not even his PB).


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## MoyuDayanLover3 (Aug 29, 2017)

turtwig said:


> I guess you could say it's not fair, but it's what they have to deal with. It would also make sense that cubers of the same skill get a similar amount of attention, so it's not like some of them just get a 'pass'. It's unfortunate that some people can't perform very well in competitions, but speedcubing is a _competitive_ activity, so I think the ability to show your skills at _competitions_ is very important and not something that should just be treated as an excuse for having bad competition times
> 
> 
> 
> ...


1. I guess.
2. And Kian only goes to them like once or twice a year.
3. Actually, if you see his facebook page, it's actually at worst 6.36, but he didn't confirm that being his pb, so it could be even better.


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## DGCubes (Aug 29, 2017)

MoyuDayanLover3 said:


> 1. I guess.
> 2. And Kian only goes to them like once or twice a year.
> 3. Actually, if you see his facebook page, it's actually at worst 6.36, but he didn't confirm that being his pb, so it could be even better.



They're both great cubers. They have extremely close times at home, but Max does notably better in competition than Bill. Personally, I think in this case Max's exceptional competition results are enough to call him the better cuber. He's able to handle the competition pressure much better than Bill, and, as a result, gets better official times.

Sure, global averages are important, but handling nerves in high-pressure situations is a huge part of cubing that should not be overlooked.


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## Ollie (Aug 29, 2017)

MoyuDayanLover3 said:


> I'm judging based on unofficial times, and global averages. So none of that I'm taking into account. Also, I have done analysis. But that's not the point. I made this post because I wanted to have a fun discussion about the top speed cubers.



Define what you mean by fast. Do you mean the *best *speedcubers? If "fastest" to you means their ranking based on their best times at home, then not many people will agree with you.

The reason I said you didn't do any analysis is because you didn't provide any reasoning behind your top-10. We want to know why you put Kian in 3rd and Max Park in 5th, and why you aren't considering competition performance or previous records or podiums at major comps. Why aren't you taking those factors into account?

It sounds a bit like you're cherry-picking evidence to support Kian being faster than others.


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## Sajwo (Aug 29, 2017)

MoyuDayanLover3 said:


> Exactly, which is why global averages are more important.



Actually global averages doesn't mean anything. I can claim that I have UWR ao1000 and you couldn't prove me wrong. We only look at official times. Maybe you will understand if you compete more


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## Underwatercuber (Aug 29, 2017)

MoyuDayanLover3 said:


> This is who I believe are the 10 fastest cubers in the world.
> 10. Patrick Ponce
> 9. Phillip Weyer
> 8. Sebastian Weyer
> ...


What is this based off of? Sum of ranks? Ranking in certain events?


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## MoyuDayanLover3 (Aug 29, 2017)

Underwatercuber said:


> What is this based off of? Sum of ranks? Ranking in certain events?


Personal opinion of 3x3.



DGCubes said:


> They're both great cubers. They have extremely close times at home, but Max does notably better in competition than Bill. Personally, I think in this case Max's exceptional competition results are enough to call him the better cuber. He's able to handle the competition pressure much better than Bill, and, as a result, gets better official times.
> 
> Sure, global averages are important, but handling nerves in high-pressure situations is a huge part of cubing that should not be overlooked.


Well, I'll admit Max definitely does better at competition.


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## Malkom (Aug 29, 2017)

MoyuDayanLover3 said:


> Personal opinion of 3x3.


aka the worst metric known to man


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## MoyuDayanLover3 (Aug 29, 2017)

Ollie said:


> Define what you mean by fast. Do you mean the *best *speedcubers? If "fastest" to you means their ranking based on their best times at home, then not many people will agree with you.
> 
> The reason I said you didn't do any analysis is because you didn't provide any reasoning behind your top-10. We want to know why you put Kian in 3rd and Max Park in 5th, and why you aren't considering competition performance or previous records or podiums at major comps. Why aren't you taking those factors into account?
> 
> It sounds a bit like you're cherry-picking evidence to support Kian being faster than others.


Well, first of all, I'm not cherry picking evidence. Kian is that fast. Secondly, I have a big writing project due tomorrow, so I can't spend all that time talking about the cubers. I'll do it later.



Sajwo said:


> Actually global averages doesn't mean anything. I can claim that I have UWR ao1000 and you couldn't prove me wrong. We only look at official times. Maybe you will understand if you compete more


We as in who? No offense to anyone, but are you seriously saying that Lucas is a lot faster than Bill?



Malkom said:


> aka the worst metric known to man


Maybe.


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## JustAnotherGenericCuber (Aug 29, 2017)

MoyuDayanLover3 said:


> Well, first of all, I'm not cherry picking evidence. Kian is that fast. Secondly, I have a big writing project due tomorrow, so I can't spend all that time talking about the cubers. I'll do it later.





MoyuDayanLover3 said:


> We as in who? No offense to anyone, but are you seriously saying that Lucas is a lot faster than Bill?





MoyuDayanLover3 said:


> Maybe.


Plz don't triple post


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## Ollie (Aug 29, 2017)

I just got a 5.96 average of 1000


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## MoyuDayanLover3 (Aug 29, 2017)

JustAnotherGenericCuber said:


> Plz don't triple post


How else am I gonna respond to all the comments?



Ollie said:


> I just got a 5.96 average of 1000


...I'd believe it if one of the Top 5 Cubers did it.


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## Ollie (Aug 29, 2017)

MoyuDayanLover3 said:


> ...I'd believe it if one of the Top 5 Cubers did it.


Shouldn't you also be doing your big writing project? It's due tomorrow.

And that's rude. Innocent until proven guilty. I'm uploading the whole video, it's really big, but until then I'm the fastest.

EDIT: one of the official fastest 5 cubers, or fastest 5 cubers on global averages?
EDIT2: 1% loaded guys.


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## Malkom (Aug 29, 2017)

MoyuDayanLover3 said:


> How else am I gonna respond to all the comments?


multi quote


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## MoyuDayanLover3 (Aug 29, 2017)

Ollie said:


> Shouldn't you also be doing your big writing project? It's due tomorrow.
> 
> And that's rude. Innocent until proven guilty. I'm uploading the whole video, it's really big, but until then I'm the fastest.
> 
> EDIT: one of the official fastest 5 cubers, or fastest 5 cubers on global averages?


Either.


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## pglewis (Aug 29, 2017)

MoyuDayanLover3 said:


> Global average is more important than...



I would personally argue that Ao5 and single are currently the only two officially ranked metrics for the event and therefore the only ones that matter. Global average has no more legitimacy nor meaning than UWRs to me.


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## PenguinsDontFly (Aug 29, 2017)

"Official solves are the only ones that matter"
-Bill Wang, Aug 21, 2016
End of discussion.


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## GuRoux (Aug 29, 2017)

PenguinsDontFly said:


> "Official solves are the only ones that matter"
> -Bill Wang, Aug 21, 2016
> End of discussion.


ehh, that's my birthday.


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## PenguinsDontFly (Aug 29, 2017)

GuRoux said:


> ehh, that's my birthday.


No Kavin, the "eh" goes at the end of the sentence.


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## Sajwo (Aug 30, 2017)

MoyuDayanLover3 said:


> We as in who? No offense to anyone, but are you seriously saying that Lucas is a lot faster than Bill?



Lucas has 2 official sub7 averages, he was 2016 US Champion and he got first ever sub5 seconds single.

So yeah, obviously


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## FastCubeMaster (Aug 30, 2017)

Ollie said:


> I just got a 5.96 average of 1000


Damn it I just got 5.98! Guess I'll have to settle for second best


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## MoyuDayanLover3 (Aug 30, 2017)

pglewis said:


> I would personally argue that Ao5 and single are currently the only two officially ranked metrics for the event and therefore the only ones that matter. Global average has no more legitimacy nor meaning than UWRs to me.


Well, as someone who supports UWR's, I have to say you're wrong. You can easily just get lucky and get a good average of 5 or single. No one says average of 5 is accurate.


Sajwo said:


> Lucas has 2 official sub7 averages, he was 2016 US Champion and he got first ever sub5 seconds single.
> 
> So yeah, obviously


...Bill has a better single, ao5, ao12, ao50, ao100 and ao1000, and you say Lucas is definitely faster? Also, does that mean in 2015 Lucas was better than Feliks?


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## JustAnotherGenericCuber (Aug 30, 2017)

MoyuDayanLover3 said:


> Also, does that mean in 2015 Lucas was better than Feliks?


Feliks still had the ao5


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## MoyuDayanLover3 (Aug 30, 2017)

Sajwo said:


> Lucas has 2 official sub7 averages, he was 2016 US Champion and he got first ever sub5 seconds single.
> 
> So yeah, obviously





JustAnotherGenericCuber said:


> Feliks still had the ao5


Still, you get my point. It's just too unreliable using an ao5.


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## applezfall (Aug 30, 2017)

FastCubeMaster said:


> Damn it I just got 5.98! Guess I'll have to settle for second best


I got a 5.94 ao1000 with roux yayayyayayya nub


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## Sajwo (Aug 30, 2017)

MoyuDayanLover3 said:


> Well, as someone who supports UWR's, I have to say you're wrong. You can easily just get lucky and get a good average of 5 or single. No one says average of 5 is accurate.
> 
> ...Bill has a better single, ao5, ao12, ao50, ao100 and ao1000, and you say Lucas is definitely faster? Also, does that mean in 2015 Lucas was better than Feliks?



I have better single, ao5, ao12, ao50, ao100 and ao1000 than Bill.


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## Ronxu (Aug 30, 2017)

The only thing that matters is unofficial 2x2 single.


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## FastCubeMaster (Aug 30, 2017)

Ronxu said:


> The only thing that matters is unofficial 2x2 single.


And people's personal opinion.


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## MoyuDayanLover3 (Aug 30, 2017)

FastCubeMaster said:


> And people's personal opinion.


When I made this thread, I made it to have a fun discussion about different world class speed cubers, not to create a war across the internet. If it pleases you that much, then I'll say whatever you want. You think Max and Lucas are better than Bill just because of official results? I'm fine with that! You say official solves are the only thing that matters? Whatever. You think Kian is a lot slower than he actually is? Think what you want!


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## Ollie (Aug 30, 2017)

MoyuDayanLover3 said:


> When I made this thread, I made it to have a fun discussion about different world class speed cubers, not to create a war across the internet. If it pleases you that much, then I'll say whatever you want. You think Max and Lucas are better than Bill just because of official results? I'm fine with that! You say official solves are the only thing that matters? Whatever. You think Kian is a lot slower than he actually is? Think what you want!


We're not attacking you. If you think something different to what the WCA rankings say we want to know why. You'll just need to justify why times at home are more important than official times.

EDIT: I mean make a strong case.


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## JustAnotherGenericCuber (Aug 30, 2017)

MoyuDayanLover3 said:


> Think what you want!


Thank you for your permission!


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## UnspeakableRebel (Aug 30, 2017)

MoyuDayanLover3 said:


> This is who I believe are the 10 fastest cubers in the world.
> 10. Patrick Ponce
> 9. Phillip Weyer
> 8. Sebastian Weyer
> ...



I've revised your list into my idea of an ideal list of the top 10 speedcubers. Also, this is only for 3x3, I might make another list for other puzzles.

10. Sebastian Weyer
9. Rami Sbahi
8. Bill Wang
7. Philipp Weyer
6. Patrick Ponce
5. Max Park
4. Lucas Etter
3. Mats Valk
2. Seung Hyuk Nahm
1. FELIKS!!!

comment your opinions please


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## Ollie (Aug 31, 2017)

UnspeakableRebel said:


> I've revised your list into my idea of an ideal list of the top 10 speedcubers. Also, this is only for 3x3, I might make another list for other puzzles.
> 
> 10. Sebastian Weyer
> 9. Rami Sbahi
> ...


Rami is officially the 10th fastest American. I guess you're trolling


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## UnspeakableRebel (Aug 31, 2017)

Well sorry that I'm not that accurate I didn't have the time to make a completely perfect one, as I have homework and a life that is not cubing.


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## Ollie (Aug 31, 2017)

UnspeakableRebel said:


> Well sorry that I'm not that accurate I didn't have the time to make a completely perfect one, as I have homework and a life that is not cubing.


r/madlads


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## turtwig (Aug 31, 2017)

Ollie said:


> Rami is officially the 10th fastest American. I guess you're trolling



I'm pretty sure he just added 3x3 single and averages ranks.


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## UnspeakableRebel (Aug 31, 2017)

lol i did but i averaged the single and average


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## FastCubeMaster (Aug 31, 2017)

MoyuDayanLover3 said:


> When I made this thread, I made it to have a fun discussion about different world class speed cubers, not to create a war across the internet. If it pleases you that much, then I'll say whatever you want. You think Max and Lucas are better than Bill just because of official results? I'm fine with that! You say official solves are the only thing that matters? Whatever. You think Kian is a lot slower than he actually is? Think what you want!


Just a note - you quoted me but I didn't really say any of those things you listed, (although I agreed with them). I was just having a joke about what was previously said.
Really though, our replies can be summarised with what @Ollie said on post #57


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## turtwig (Aug 31, 2017)

UnspeakableRebel said:


> lol i did but i averaged the single and average



You know you'll get the exact same results, the only difference is that your numbers will be twice as small.


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## pglewis (Aug 31, 2017)

No matter what metric you use: I am not in that list of 10  

I may be in the top 10 list of active, right-handed, over 45 cubers who are an Aquarius, however. Narrow down the class enough and even I can be World Class.


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## GuRoux (Aug 31, 2017)

i kind of like the idea of looking at average official results. something like taking the mean of the middle three results of the competitors' last five rounds of 3x3. this gives a better sense of who's the best at competing than looking at just best official result.


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## MoyuDayanLover3 (Aug 31, 2017)

UnspeakableRebel said:


> I've revised your list into my idea of an ideal list of the top 10 speedcubers. Also, this is only for 3x3, I might make another list for other puzzles.
> 
> 10. Sebastian Weyer
> 9. Rami Sbahi
> ...


I'll ask what everyone else has been asking me. Why? It's obviously not based off of Official or Unofficial tims, so what makes you rank the cubers like you do?


Ollie said:


> We're not attacking you. If you think something different to what the WCA rankings say we want to know why. You'll just need to justify why times at home are more important than official times.
> 
> EDIT: I mean make a strong case.


This also ties in with the last one somewhat.
(note: this list only takes into account unofficial times. If you're not okay with that, then that's your problem)
10. Patrick Ponce (don't know much about him except that he's world class, so I just decided to pick him over the others)
9. Phillip Weyer (I don't know, but he seems fast)
8. Sebastian Weyer (They are the fastest brothers for a reason)
7. Lucas Etter (averages high 6-low 7, low 6 average of 12, sub-5.9 average, etc.)
6. Mats Valk (averages sub-7, gets sub 5.85 average with no reaction whatsoever, etc.)
5. Max Park (6.59 average of 1000, sub-6.3 average of 100, sub-5.8 average of 12)
4. Seung-Hyuk Nahm (averages mid-high 6, 6.09 average of 50, possibly sub 6.5 average of 100, but I'm not sure, etc.)
3. Kian Mansour (has tied UWR avg 1000, 6.39 avg 100, can consistently get really fast times)
2. Bill Wang (has tied UWR avg 1000, 6.36- average of 100, has held/holds several ytuwr's in 3x3, can get extremely fast ao5/12, etc.)
1. Feliks Zemdegs (God)


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## Ronxu (Aug 31, 2017)

MoyuDayanLover3 said:


> I'll ask what everyone else has been asking me. Why? It's obviously not based off of Official or Unofficial tims, so what makes you rank the cubers like you do?
> 
> This also ties in with the last one somewhat.
> (note: this list only takes into account unofficial times. If you're not okay with that, then that's your problem)
> ...


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## MoyuDayanLover3 (Aug 31, 2017)

Okay, so I don't know much about the people past the Top 7. Let's just leave it at averages sub-7 then. I meant that though his times are really consistent and his global average is pretty much the same as Bill, since it's more rare for him to get fast singles/small averages, I'm placing him lower than Bill. Fiiiine, I'll list some reasons. He has the 3x3 UWR single, ao5, ao12, ao50, ao100, has like 50+ sub-5's on cam, a bunch of sub-6 averages on cam, several sub-4's on cam, could get sub-5's on a Zhanchi about 4-5 years ago, has the TPS YTUWR of 13.4, etc..


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## UnspeakableRebel (Sep 2, 2017)

I have made what I think is a really good list of the top 10 speedcubers in 3x3. Give your opinions on it please.

10. Collin Burns
9. Philipp Weyer
8. Drew Brads
7. Alexandre Carlier
6. Bill Wang
5. Mats Valk
4. Lucas Etter
3. Seung-Hyuk Nahm
2. Feliks Zemdegs
1. Max Park


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## turtwig (Sep 2, 2017)

UnspeakableRebel said:


> Give your opinions on it please.





UnspeakableRebel said:


> 7. Alexandre Carlier



Why? Philipp Weyer has a better average and Drew Brads has a better single and average.

To be honest, the idea of listing the top 10 people is pointless. On top of the fact that almost all of them are basically personal opinion, I've yet to see a list that makes more sense than just taking official average rankings.


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## MoyuDayanLover3 (Sep 2, 2017)

UnspeakableRebel said:


> I have made what I think is a really good list of the top 10 speedcubers in 3x3. Give your opinions on it please.
> 
> 10. Collin Burns
> 9. Philipp Weyer
> ...


...why? Bill Wang and Kian Mansour have the UWR average of 1000 and both have sub-6.4 average of 100's. Feliks has all the other 3x3 UWR's. Lucas isn't even sub-7, or he's barely sub-7, and Mats Valk is definitely sub-7. Those are the major things. There are other problems, but I don't think those ones are really important.


turtwig said:


> Why? Philipp Weyer has a better average and Drew Brads has a better single and average.
> 
> To be honest, the idea of listing the top 10 people is pointless. On top of the fact that almost all of them are basically personal opinion, I've yet to see a list that makes more sense than just taking official average rankings.


Are you saying Max was better than Felks for a couple months?


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## turtwig (Sep 2, 2017)

MoyuDayanLover3 said:


> Are you saying Max was better than Felks for a couple months?



Obviously there are more reasons on top of the ones that I stated. I pointed out Drew and Philipp because they were also on the list even though they both have several averages faster than Carlier's best average, but Carlier's placement on the list is more surprising as he's only ranked 19th in average. The only reasons I can think of for his placement is that he got a good single that used to be top 10 and that he did well in world finals. While he's definitely world class, he doesn't stand out in a way that would merit being in the top 10.

About Max and Feliks, I would say that after Max got the WR average, there was good reason to believe that he was or had already surpassed Feliks in speed, but after a few months, Feliks has gotten the record back and several other sub-Max averages while Max has yet to get another sub-6.45 average, so it's safe to assume that Feliks is still faster than Max.

Of course solely looking at official ranking has its flaws, and there might be some better method out there that sorts cubers, but so far I've yet to see one. Using personal judgement is definitely not going to be satisfactory.

I would say that predicting future results is a good sign of a good ranking system, so if someone makes a ranking system that can consistently predict future rankings and competition podiums better than just guessing according to competition PBs, I would consider saying that the system is better or makes more sense.



MoyuDayanLover3 said:


> Lucas isn't even sub-7, or he's barely sub-7, and Mats Valk is definitely sub-7.



Why is Mats 'definitely' sub-7 but Lucas 'barely' sub-7? Lucas has the better competition average, and while Mats has 4 sub-7 averages and Lucas has only 2, this is probably because Mats attends way more competitions. (based on their competition performance I wouldn't say that either is 'definitely' sub-7).


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## UnspeakableRebel (Sep 2, 2017)

1. Alexandre Carlier is probably the second best European speedcuber (first being Mats Valk) He gets consistent low 7 times in competition. Sure, other cubers can have better times from luck, but he gets consistent decent times.

2. Max Park is rising very fast, and I predict he will soon top Feliks' world record average. He is just amazing. That's why I put him first. Feliks is a way faster cuber and he is the best cuber in the world, but Max's times are getting better and better. He's the fastest rising speedcuber.

3. I'm not putting UWRs, ao100/1000s and other stuff in effect because UWRs can easily be created through special effects, and there are probably better UWRs that happened but just weren't on camera.


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## turtwig (Sep 2, 2017)

UnspeakableRebel said:


> 1. Alexandre Carlier is probably the second best European speedcuber (first being Mats Valk) He gets consistent low 7 times in competition. Sure, other cubers can have better times from luck, but he gets consistent decent times.



What about Philipp and Sebastian Weyer? They have 6 and 5 sub-Carlier averages respectively. I wouldn't call that luck. And Alexandre is certainly not low-7 in comps, he has only 2 sub-7.5 averages (that's out of the 30 averages he did after his first sub-7.5).


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## pglewis (Sep 3, 2017)

I thought some interesting fuel for the fire would be to take the top 1000 results for both single and avg and just count the number of appearances. Sure, it's highly flawed like anything else: it can include less active or inactive people and has a strong bias towards those who attend a lot of competitions and/or have been active for a while. Top 10 though... you can swap around and argue over the final few spots but it's definitely the usual suspects. I make no promises about the accuracy other than I _think_ it's correct from cobbling together a quick formula. Also, it doesn't include any results from this weekend so Patrick, at the least, has a few more ticks.



Spoiler: Single



213 Feliks Zemdegs
69 Mats Valk
61 Max Park
48 Lucas Etter
38 Patrick Ponce
33 Seung Hyuk Nahm
28 Bill Wang
28 Drew Brads
25 Philipp Weyer
22 Alexandre Carlier
22 Sebastian Weyer
18 Cornelius Dieckmann
15 Collin Burns
15 Michał Pleskowicz
13 Antoine Cantin
13 Keaton Ellis
12 Phillip Lewicki
10 Jayden McNeill
10 Kevin Gerhardt





Spoiler: Average



152 Feliks Zemdegs
78 Mats Valk
51 Patrick Ponce
49 Lucas Etter
47 Philipp Weyer
46 Max Park
42 Bill Wang
42 Cornelius Dieckmann
31 Sebastian Weyer
29 Drew Brads
29 Michał Pleskowicz
26 Seung Hyuk Nahm
24 Collin Burns
23 Alexander Lau
20 Alexandre Carlier
20 Antoine Cantin
15 Jayden McNeill
14 Dario Roa Sánchez
14 Keaton Ellis
14 Yi-Fan Wu
12 Dmitry Dobrjakov
10 Carlos Méndez García-Barroso
10 Hyeon Kyo Kyoung
10 Kai-Wen Wang
10 Kevin Gerhardt
10 Michał Rzewuski





turtwig said:


> Why? Philipp Weyer has a better average and Drew Brads has a better single and average...



One thing that does stand out to me from the stats above is Alexandre is responsible for 22 of the fastest 1000 singles and 20 of the fastest 1000 averages while only having attended 28 competitions. It might be interesting to pull the number of competitions into the data and weight the list by ratio, possibly burying some of the opportunity bias.


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## turtwig (Sep 3, 2017)

pglewis said:


> One thing that does stand out to me from the stats above is Alexandre is responsible for 22 of the fastest 1000 singles and 20 of the fastest 1000 averages while only having attended 28 competitions.



Based on your stats, Drew Brads has 28 singles and 29 averages with only 33 competitions and while Philipp has only 25 singles, he has 47 averages with 50 competitions. It's also worth mentioning that Alexandre was the fastest out of the three at their first competitions.

About opportunity bias, I think it could also work to benefit people that go to less competitions. Like I mentioned before, Alexandre was much faster at his first competition, getting a 13 average, while Philipp and Drew got 18 and 32 averages, respectively, if he had attended a competition earlier in his cubing career, he would've had more competitions but no more top 1000 times. It would be interesting to see if there's a good way to take into account the number of competitions fairly, though.


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## pglewis (Sep 3, 2017)

turtwig said:


> Based on your stats, Drew Brads has 28 singles and 29 averages with only 33 competitions and while Philipp has only 25 singles, he has 47 averages with 50 competitions. It's also worth mentioning that Alexandre was the fastest out of the three at their first competitions.
> 
> About opportunity bias, I think it could also work to benefit people that go to less competitions. Like I mentioned before, Alexandre was much faster at his first competition, getting a 13 average, while Philipp and Drew got 18 and 32 averages, respectively, if he had attended a competition earlier in his cubing career, he would've had more competitions but no more top 1000 times. It would be interesting to see if there's a good way to take into account the number of competitions fairly, though.



Yeah, stats are fun. I believe some sort of weighting by the age of the official time might have value too. Ten appearances with nothing more recent than 5 years ago is probably less significant than 5 appearances in the past year.


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## GenTheThief (Sep 3, 2017)

This is my list of the top 10 3x3 speedcubers, based only on their best official 3x3 average.

10. Patrick Ponce
9. Philipp Weyer
8. Bill Wang
7. Kian Mansour
6. Mats Valk
5. Lucas Etter
4. Sebastian Weyer
3. Seung Hyuk Nahm (남승혁)
2. Max Park
1. Feliks Zemdegs


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## UnspeakableRebel (Sep 4, 2017)

GenTheThief said:


> This is my list of the top 10 3x3 speedcubers, based only on their best official 3x3 average.
> 
> 10. Patrick Ponce
> 9. Philipp Weyer
> ...



GenTheThief, shouldn't Patrick be #1 if it's based on the best official 3x3 average?


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## turtwig (Sep 4, 2017)

UnspeakableRebel said:


> shouldn't Patrick be #1 if it's based on the best official 3x3 average?



Not sure if this is just some 'Feliks is #2 now' meme, but Patrick just got the WR *single*, not *average*.


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## UnspeakableRebel (Sep 4, 2017)

Lol I think my brain just wasn't working when I posted that.


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## Escher (Sep 7, 2017)

A much more interesting list, I think, is to ask who the top 10 GOAT speedcubers are. Since '10 fastest right now' will depend on comp times + records of home times + 'consistency' or 'highest peaks' + some other metric like KinchRank. 10 GOAT requires historical context and argumentation; breaking of barriers, contribution to community (+gen/dev of methods), dominance of records over a period of time, distance between them at their prime and others, and doesn't depend on 333 only.

Candidates can then be people like Rob Yau, Erik Akkersdijk, Dan Cohen, Ville Seppänen, Maskow, Alex Lau, Yu Nakajima, Milan Baticz -- and people who contributed huge amounts to the community over turning fast on crap hardware, such as Ron (and others in WCA), or Brest, or broke barriers in FMC, like Tomoaki.

Basically just people from a time when I really liked cubing, okay?


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## Gomorrite (Sep 7, 2017)

Ernő Rubik the inventor of the cube, Mátyás Kuti the inventor of cheating and the computer that calculated God's number. Those are some of the most influential cubers.


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## Sajwo (Sep 7, 2017)

Escher said:


> A much more interesting list, I think, is to ask who the top 10 GOAT speedcubers are. Since '10 fastest right now' will depend on comp times + records of home times + 'consistency' or 'highest peaks' + some other metric like KinchRank. 10 GOAT requires historical context and argumentation; breaking of barriers, contribution to community (+gen/dev of methods), dominance of records over a period of time, distance between them at their prime and others, and doesn't depend on 333 only.
> 
> Candidates can then be people like Rob Yau, Erik Akkersdijk, Dan Cohen, Ville Seppänen, Maskow, Alex Lau, Yu Nakajima, Milan Baticz -- and people who contributed huge amounts to the community over turning fast on crap hardware, such as Ron (and others in WCA), or Brest, or broke barriers in FMC, like Tomoaki.
> 
> Basically just people from a time when I really liked cubing, okay?



No Feliks?


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## Escher (Sep 8, 2017)

Sajwo said:


> No Feliks?



Quite literally goes without saying: I was including people who wouldn't otherwise be mentioned in the OPs scope.


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## MoyuDayanLover3 (Nov 5, 2017)

In case anyone still cares, my opinion on the 10 fastest 3x3 cubers has changed a little. This is my new Top 10 for ONLY 3x3.
10. Phillip Lewecki
9. Sebastian Weyer
8. Phillip Weyer
7. Patrick Ponce
6. Lucas Etter
5. Mats Valk
4. Bill Wang/Kian Mansour (for now...)
3. Max Park 
2. Seung Hyuk Nahm
1. Feliks Zemdegs
I'm not quite certain about the rankings past the Top 6.


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## MoyuDayanLover3 (Nov 5, 2017)

turtwig said:


> Obviously there are more reasons on top of the ones that I stated. I pointed out Drew and Philipp because they were also on the list even though they both have several averages faster than Carlier's best average, but Carlier's placement on the list is more surprising as he's only ranked 19th in average. The only reasons I can think of for his placement is that he got a good single that used to be top 10 and that he did well in world finals. While he's definitely world class, he doesn't stand out in a way that would merit being in the top 10.
> 
> About Max and Feliks, I would say that after Max got the WR average, there was good reason to believe that he was or had already surpassed Feliks in speed, but after a few months, Feliks has gotten the record back and several other sub-Max averages while Max has yet to get another sub-6.45 average, so it's safe to assume that Feliks is still faster than Max.
> 
> ...


I think Mats is sub-7 while Lucas is not/barely is, because a little while ago, Lucas posted a 7.0x mean of 200 on his facebook, and said it was pretty representative of his times, and I doubt he's improved a huge amount in a couple months. As for Mats, it's a little more subjective, but I think it's just because people compare him to the Legendary Feliks Zemdegs, who is definitely sub-6.4/6.3, so he should be within half a second at least.


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## TheCoolMinxer (Nov 5, 2017)

MoyuDayanLover3 said:


> I think Mats is sub-7 while Lucas is not/barely is, because a little while ago, Lucas posted a 7.0x mean of 200 on his facebook, and said it was pretty representative of his times, and I doubt he's improved a huge amount in a couple months. As for Mats, it's a little more subjective, but I think it's just because people compare him to the Legendary Feliks Zemdegs, who is definitely sub-6.4/6.3, so he should be within half a second at least.


lol definitely not Phillip Lewicki. For example Kevin Gerhardt has a 6.7 avg100 and 6.5 avg50 iirc, and is sub7 official, ist constantly sub8 seconds, even under pressure and major comps


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## MoyuDayanLover3 (Nov 5, 2017)

TheCoolMinxer said:


> lol definitely not Phillip Lewicki. For example Kevin Gerhardt has a 6.7 avg100 and 6.5 avg50 iirc, and is sub7 official, ist constantly sub8 seconds, even under pressure and major comps


I think you replied to the wrong comment, but anyway, good point. I didn't know that about him. Where did you find out?


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## SM cubing (Dec 30, 2018)

Ronxu said:


> The only thing that matters is unofficial 2x2 single.


How nice of you to say that... 

read my signature


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## Metallic Silver (Dec 30, 2018)

THIS IS BIAS!! (ノಠ益ಠ)ノ彡┻━┻


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## AbsoRuud (Dec 30, 2018)

Why is there discussion and opinions on who is the fastest/best 3x3x3 solver?

Look at worldcubeassociation. The rankings are right there.

You can't argue with facts.


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## MoyuDayanLover3 (Jan 12, 2019)

Metallic Silver said:


> THIS IS BIAS!! (ノಠ益ಠ)ノ彡┻━┻


So?



AbsoRuud said:


> Why is there discussion and opinions on who is the fastest/best 3x3x3 solver?
> 
> Look at worldcubeassociation. The rankings are right there.
> 
> You can't argue with facts.


If we just looked at official rankings, then we would't have a discussion, and it wouldn't be fun.


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