# Roux 4b to 4c Transition



## Athefre (Feb 11, 2012)

For years the 3-cycle recognition in Roux 4c was my least favorite part of the method. It seems I'm not alone because I sometimes see users, even the fastest ones, mention or ask about delays in recognizing the 3-cycles. No one ever gives a satisfying answer. I have a way that works. Everything you need is visible several moves before the end of 4b. With a short time of practice you'll be able to predict the first three moves of 4c before you've finished 4b.

While finishing 4b, there will be a sticker on the U layer in the corner slot you're trying to solve. Remember its color and it will go to the D layer when you're finished. There is another sticker on the U layer that matches it. It will stay on the U layer. When you've finished 4b, adjust the U layer so that the matching U layer edge you found is on the opposite side of the cube from the D edge. Finally, one of the edges on the U-layer doesn't match the U center. Bring it towards the U layer with MU2 or M'U2.





Many thanks to PandaCuber for the video.

*Text Examples:*


Spoiler




U' M U' M2 U2 M2 U2 M U' M' U M2 U2 M U2 M U M U2 M U' M' U2 M2 U2
*UMU'M'U'*
You know that next you will do *M'U2M'*. Before doing that, look at the sticker at UB and you know it will go to DF afterwards. Then, while doing M'U2M', you find the edge sticker on U that matches the sticker that is going to DF. It is at UR and will end up at UL.
Now do *U* to place that U edge on the opposite side of the cube from DF. *M* to bring the edge that doesn’t match the U center towards U. *U2M* to finish.

U M' U2 M2 U' M' U' M2 U M' U' M2 U2 M' U2 M U M2 U2 M U' M2 U'
*MU'M'U2MUM'U*
Of course next comes *MU2M*. Before doing that, look at the color of the sticker at UF and know that it goes to DB. While doing MU2M find the sticker on U that matches the sticker going to DB. It is at UL and will end up at UR.
*U* to place the U edge on the opposite side of the cube as the D edge. *M* to bring the edge that doesn’t match the U center towards U. *U2MU2* to finish.


U2 M U M' U' M2 U2 M' U2 M U' M2 U M' U2 M U' M' U M' U M U' M
You know to do *MUM*. You should have noticed, before starting, that L and R will be solved during this orientation. So while doing this, you watch the sticker that is at RU. It goes to DF. And you know to watch for its matching U sticker. It ends up at UR.
Solved.
*U’* to place the U edge on the opposite side of the cube. *M’* to bring the edge that doesn’t match the U center towards U. Finish with *U2M’U2*.

Extra:

This will not interfere with your strategy for anticipating cases other than the 3-cycles.
The two 3-cycles that start with M2U2 are solved with a total of one U2 more.
Rarely you'll come across the orientation sequence MUM' solving 4b along with it. In this case it's impossible to see either D sticker. You can check LU or mix in another strategy.


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## 5BLD (Feb 11, 2012)

I have a nice strategy too; I identify BU sticker as I insert LR edges.


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## Athefre (Feb 11, 2012)

5BLD said:


> Yeah I have got a strategy similar to this. I identify BU sticker as I insert LR edges.



How do you know which edge belongs at BU? After 4b, the corners are positioned so that the only edge at BU is L or R. One motivation I had for posting this topic is you mentioned in irc that you have to do things like U'U2 for some cases.


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## 5BLD (Feb 11, 2012)

I did mention that, it was the case until I came up with the strategy I use now.
What I meant was I look literally at the edge coming to BU AFTER 4b, during step 4b. You see the BU edge comin into place as you do the last move at the end of 4b which is almost always a U move. If LR skip, fine, I'll have to do UU' to recog but I can predict 4b skips and see the BU edge before it goes there anyway.


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## Athefre (Feb 11, 2012)

How do you know which direction to adjust U? What I'm presenting here is a way to not have to think about how to adjust the U layer after 4b and to not have to think about in which direction to bring M.


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## PandaCuber (Feb 11, 2012)

I hate this step too. 
Thanks for this little tip.


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## Athefre (Feb 11, 2012)

The great thing about this is that you will never have to look at F, R, L, B, or D. Not even LU, RU, FU, FD, etc. It is done completely by looking at two stickers on the U face and the U center if you want. Once you've done that, you can look away from the rest of the solve up until the final two moves.


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## PandaCuber (Feb 11, 2012)

Can I see some more examples? I very visual.


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## Athefre (Feb 11, 2012)

M' U2 M U' M' U M2 U2 M' U2 M2 U M U' M2 U M2 U M U' M U' M U'

a. MU'M'U2MUMU2

b+c. Now, before slotting the two LR edges, notice the sticker at UB, which will go to DF, and its match at UR, which will go to UL after M2. You can also notice that the U center doesn't match those two stickers. So do M2 then U' to place the matching stickers on opposite sides of the cube. If you paid attention to the U center like I mentioned, you already know to do M'. If not, you can spend your time here finding the edge that doesn't match the U center. U2MU2M2 to finish.

M2 U M U2 M2 U2 M' U' M' U M U M2 U2 M U M U2 M' U' M U2 M' U2 M'

a. U'MU'M'U

b+c. Notice the matching stickers at UB, which will go to DF, and UR, which will go to UL after M'U2M'. You could also notice that the center matches those two stickers and know that after you do M'U2M', the matching sticker still on the U layer will be the one that needs to be brought towards U. So do M'U2M' then U to place the matching U layer sticker on the opposite side of the cube then M to bring it toward U since it doesnt' match the U center. U2MU2M2 to finish.

M U' M2 U M2 U' M U' M U' M2 U' M U2 M' U M U M' U M U' M U M

a. UM'UM'U2MU'MU

b+c. Matching stickers at UB, which will go to DF, and UL, which will go to UR after you do M'U2M'. So do M'U2M' then U' to place the matching U layer sticker on the opposite side of the cube from it's matching D sticker. If you paid attention to the U center earlier you know to do M' because the edge at UF doesn't match the U center. U2M' to finish.


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## chardison1980 (Feb 11, 2012)

ive been going through these as i have gotten into roux as my primary method still transitioning over from waterman, 

do you think you can make a couple videos showing this by any chance


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## chardison1980 (Feb 11, 2012)

5BLD said:


> I did mention that, it was the case until I came up with the strategy I use now.
> What I meant was I look literally at the edge coming to BU AFTER 4b, during step 4b. You see the BU edge comin into place as you do the last move at the end of 4b which is almost always a U move. If LR skip, fine, I'll have to do UU' to recog but I can predict 4b skips and see the BU edge before it goes there anyway.


is there a chance that you will be adding your new strategy that you use now to the ROUX site in a video? thanks


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## Athefre (Feb 12, 2012)

I'm unable to make a video. All I can do is say that I know what I'm talking about. I used many different techniques, including user suggestions and others of my own, for 5 years and wasn't satisfied. I've been using this for close to a year and it feels perfect.

To everyone: Try it. Use this for a while. Maybe even just give it 30 solves to get used to it.


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## chardison1980 (Feb 12, 2012)

Athefre said:


> I'm unable to make a video. All I can do is say that I know what I'm talking about. I used many different techniques, including user suggestions and others of my own, for 5 years and wasn't satisfied. I've been using this for close to a year and it feels perfect.
> 
> To everyone: Try it. Use this for a while. Maybe even just give it 30 solves to get used to it.


 
its still a little confusing to me, but im messing with it alot now, trying to get it to click. but im still relalivly new at ROUX also.


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## 5BLD (Feb 12, 2012)

chardison1980 said:


> is there a chance that you will be adding your new strategy that you use now to the ROUX site in a video? thanks


 
If everyone prefers athefre's then they can just use that. I'll make a video if people actually want to learn my way.

Our methods are similar but with a different approach...


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## PandaCuber (Feb 12, 2012)

5BLD said:


> If everyone prefers athefre's then they can just use that. I'll make a video if people actually want to learn my way.
> 
> Our methods are similar but with a different approach...


 
do it.


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## Athefre (Feb 12, 2012)

5BLD said:


> Our methods are similar but with a different approach...



From what I've seen, it doesn't seem similar at all. What _is_ similar to mine is Donovan's. He doesn't provide any kind of look ahead planning like I've described to get to the goal, but in his tutorial video, his idea is exactly the same as mine.

[youtube]ac6L6x-NEm8&feature=related#t=8m24s[/youtube]
Skip to 8:24.

The difference is that I have developed a look ahead strategy to avoid having to find those pieces after 4b. You know how 4a and 4b are like one step? With what I'm describing, 4b and 4c are like one step. No AUF hesitation and no first M direction hesitation.


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## oll+phase+sync (Feb 17, 2012)

The really cool thing of Athefre idea (IMHO) is that lookahead for 4c starts during 4b. 

EDIT: I edited this post to reflect my current knowledge.

*NEW Titel: (Donovan's) Singleton Prediction System *

I just watched the video from Post 16 and now discribe (extend) the Step 4c prediction system, that is used there. 

During 4b there is the "double slot-in move", that's when UR edge und UL edge are brought into position together. 
exsample: let 4b be M'U2*M'* then the bold *M'* is the "double slot-in move"

It starts directly BEFORE the "double slot-in move".

Ia) The double slot-in move" can be M, M' or M2 - lookout for a "Singleton" that will be moved to the D-LAYER.
Ib) Remember where in the D layer the singleton will be.

A "Singleton" is an edge that has not the same sticker color than "ALL VISIBLE" adjacent centers stickers. In our case we only see 
the U and F center.

(math pedantic: from this definition a Singleton is no Singleton any more when moved to D layer, but for simplycicity I
will still call it that way)

Ia advanced) if the double slot-in move is M or M' the singleton is allowed to be DF, or if no singleton is visible then DB becomes the singleton.

Ib advanced) BLOCKS RULE - just this: if you spot a big block (3 same colored stickers in a row, two centers and there edge), you must use that knowledge to shortcut the solving. 

II) after the "double slot-in move" look for a new "singleton" and do U layer turn to position it directly vertical above
the singleton from step I ; then do an slice move to bring both songletons in the U layer.

III) continue with 4c like normal.

PROs (not why this kind of methode is good just whats good at singleton):
- while double slot-in move your brain really has no other dutis.
- no cube twists
- if solving the dot-case with out E you save a move

CONTRAS
- Very new/rare, maybe additonal bad cases exist
- Setup: M' U2 M' U' M - this seems to be a bad case with for the singleton system. 

QUESTIONS
Sometime there is no first singleton in U (in conjunction with M/ M' ), ... I just treat the other D edge as singleton in this cases. (yes, answer of my own)

So far I haven't checked completely, but there are situation where no (second) singleton exists, but that seems to be the U2M2U2 case wich is quite easy to recognize? (just go on and solve the cube)

Also I feel like doing 1 or 2 additional moves on average? (but therefor no cube twist or look arounds are necessary)




Athefre said:


> The great thing about this is that you will never have to look at F, R, L, B, or D. Not even LU, RU, FU, FD, etc. It is done completely by looking at two stickers on the U face and the U center if you want. Once you've done that, you can look away from the rest of the solve up until the final two moves.



You say you don't look at F,FU ... if UF and UB both don't have the same color as U (slot-in move is M2) ... FU, U tells me wich one could be a real singleton - how do you know this ?


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## LarsN (Feb 17, 2012)

Maybe it's just a force of habit, but it seems way more easy to look at RU and LU while doing what ever M-move in the end of 4b.

This way there are no additional moves, except for the dot case, which should be easy to recognize before the wasted move.


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## 5BLD (Feb 17, 2012)

I do that, or during whatever U move.


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## Athefre (Feb 17, 2012)

LarsN said:


> Maybe it's just a force of habit, but it seems way more easy to look at RU and LU while doing what ever M-move in the end of 4b.



That's the point of my 3-cycle lookahead. There is no thinking about pieces at the end of 4b. All of the thinking was done 3 moves before the end of 4b.



oll+phase+sync said:


> So far I haven't checked completely, but there are situation where no (second) singleton exists, but that seems to be the U2M2U2 case wich is quite easy to recognize?



Yes, I pointed out in my first post that my 3-cycle lookahead method doesn't interfere with those cases. You know if you will have a 3-cycle case or not before it is important to know.



oll+phase+sync said:


> Also I feel like doing 1 or 2 additional moves on average?



I noted in my first post that the M2U2 3-cycles require one additional U2. It will not raise your movecount average by any significant number.



oll+phase+sync said:


> You say you don't look at F,FU ... if UF and UB both don't have the same color as U (slot-in move is M2) ... FU, U tells me wich one could be a real singleton - how do you know this ?



There is no looking at FU. It is all done looking at two same colored stickers on U. Three if you incorporate the U center. The U center is how you know which piece is your "singleton".


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## oll+phase+sync (Feb 20, 2012)

Setup M'U2M'U'M2


UL and UB have the same color, and UF and UR have the same color. In this case it doesen't matter wich pair I chosse both pairs lead to the same solution. 

Am I always free wich one to pick?


P.S. I vastly edited my last post bcause I recogmized the methode in the Video is differen' t from Athefre's.


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## Athefre (Feb 20, 2012)

oll+phase+sync said:


> Setup M'U2M'U'M2
> 
> 
> UL and UB have the same color, and UF and UR have the same color. In this case it doesen't matter wich pair I chosse both pairs lead to the same solution.
> ...



Yep. You are free to choose.


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## PandaCuber (Mar 1, 2012)

Hope I said everything correctly


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## Athefre (Mar 2, 2012)

That's perfect.


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## PandaCuber (Mar 2, 2012)

Athefre said:


> That's perfect.


 
YAY ! Im glad I got it right.


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## Athefre (Mar 2, 2012)

Mind if I add your video to the first post?


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## oll+phase+sync (Mar 2, 2012)

Into the blue:

Does choosing two D-colored edges (If you get on option to choose ) increase my chances to get an 4c skip?


EDIT: No I'm completly wrong, I just had some lucky solves in sequence,


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## PandaCuber (Mar 2, 2012)

Athefre said:


> Mind if I add your video to the first post?


 
Yeah sure, of course.


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## Athefre (Mar 2, 2012)

oll+phase+sync said:


> Into the blue:
> 
> Does choosing two D-colored edges (If you get on option to choose ) increase my chances to get an 4c skip?



Can you give an example?


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## Bestsimple (Nov 21, 2012)

Hello, I told my friend I would learn how to solve the cube before him and I found this method that looks pretty easy. Can someone help me with this transition though because some cases don't work for me. For example M' U2 M' U2 M2 U' M2 to set up. 
Once you finish 4b and you place the RU edge opposite to the FD edge it doesn't work. Please help. Thanks very much!


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## 5BLD (Nov 21, 2012)

What are you talking about. Recog? Cuz then youve got it wrong.

M2, then you see the LU sticker
Then you know its UM2 etc

If you think this method is easy you probably have a high movecount... Try to get that down. In LSE make sure transition is good too.


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## Bestsimple (Nov 21, 2012)

Thanks for replying,

I'm talking about the transition method which 
I thought didn't have to rely on recog.

Take M' U2 M' U2 M2 U' M2 for example. In this method I thought you track the two yellow or white stickers on top. I'll track the top yellow stickers on top. So when you do a M2 the BU sticker goes to FD. Then aren't you supposed to put the RU sticker opposite of the FD sticker so it goes to BU. However when you do that it doesn't work and you can see the last two moves to solve it after you bring that colour doesn't match the centre towards it. Do you have a transition you use yourself? 

Btw I just started Roux and I’m horrible at it. Could you give me any beginner tips to improve? Could you also tell me how to learn full Cmll and what terms like 4 flips mean and how to recognise full cmll? I just did a quick solve and I got a move count of 57 but I counted slices as one move. First block was 8, Second block was 14, Cmll was 23, LSE was extremely lucky I got 12. I think my move count is pretty good compared to my first method I learnt from Dan brown but maybe it's bad for the method. Please can you give any tips to improve? Thanks’ heaps for replying!


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## Kirjava (Nov 21, 2012)

Bestsimple said:


> Thanks for replying,
> 
> I'm talking about the transition method which
> I thought didn't have to rely on recog.
> ...



Couldn't be arsed putting the effort into understanding this. It's pretty unclear and referring to specific colours is bad - I'd scrambled on my own LSE scheme.



Bestsimple said:


> Could you also tell me how to learn full Cmll



Learn the algs from the CMLL thread link



Bestsimple said:


> and what terms like 4 flips mean and how to recognise full cmll?



4 flip means four edges are flipped. you can recognise CMLL however you like. Rowe style or Gilles style.



Bestsimple said:


> I just did a quick solve and I got a move count of 57 but I counted slices as one move. First block was 8, Second block was 14, Cmll was 23, LSE was extremely lucky I got 12. I think my move count is pretty good compared to my first method I learnt from Dan brown but maybe it's bad for the method. Please can you give any tips to improve? Thanks’ heaps for replying!



A single solve isn't going to tell you much about what your movecount is like, also going slower will improve your movecount anyway.


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## Bestsimple (Nov 22, 2012)

Thanks for responding so quickly. This transition method works for me well it almost all cases it's just in some cases one I put the stickers opposite to each other it doesn't work and I don't know what I've done wrong. 

Thanks for the cmlls but I still don't understand what the point of flips are. So when it says 4 flip it means four edge are flipped? What edges are they and what does it do? Thanks for replying. My move count in Roux is usually around that move count and yeah i take as much time as possible to find the lowest move count. 

But anyway do you have any idea why the transition method doesn't work for me in certain cases like M' U2 M' U2 M2 U' M2. Thanks, maybe if it's not too much trouble could you walk me through how to solve the case using the transition method. Thanks.


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## Kirjava (Nov 22, 2012)

I was saying that it's a misrepresentation of your true movecount. When I go slow and count the moves my movecount is around 10 moves lower than in a normal speedsolve.


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## Bestsimple (Nov 22, 2012)

Okay but do you have any idea what i've done wrong with the 4b to 4c transition?


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## Kirjava (Nov 22, 2012)

No, your explanation of what you do was unclear and confusing


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## Bestsimple (Nov 22, 2012)

Okay let me try again to explain more consisely. M' U2 M' U2 M2 U' M2 to set up case.

Okay so I identify any two colours on top that match each other in this case i'll choose RU and BU as they as both the same colours. When i do a m2 to finish 4b the BU edge will go to FD and the RU sticker will stay where it is. 

So 4b done, I now do a U' to put the RU edge opposite to the FD edge. Okay now here's where it stuffs up. It doesn't work because after you bring the sticker that doesn't match the centre towards it with a M you can't find the last two moves to solve it instead it goes into another 4c alg. the U2 M2 U2 one. Please help or tell me what you don't understand from my explanation.

Btw thanks heaps for replying so quickly you're super helpful.


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## Athefre (Nov 22, 2012)

That's one of the cases I mentioned in the example notes. There are ways to know you'll have that case so that you do it the way you're used to, but I'm not sure it's worth it.


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## Bestsimple (Nov 22, 2012)

O really oh sorry but could you tell me which one it is because I can't find it. I think this transition method is absolutely awesome but the thing is these cases that don't work. So what would you recommend me to do when I have these cases. Could you also tell me roughly how many of these cases there are that don't work? Thanks a bunch.


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## Smiles (Dec 19, 2012)

So I was learning Roux and I actually liked 3-cycles cause my recognition and look ahead were horrible and they had a low movecount.
That was, until I started getting used to them and actually looking ahead. I couldn't look ahead to these cases, so I looked for a good way to do it and here I found it.
I have been using it and I average about 23 seconds with Roux now, thanks to this recognition method making my LSE feel WAY smoother because I'm actually able to look ahead to 3-cycles easily. I'm not even taking an extra look or really tracking pieces to identify the cycle. My very first Roux PB solve was 3:24, and now it's 12.82 (NL) in less than a month.

Now I really like Roux. THANKS.


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## joelwong (Dec 31, 2012)

Bestsimple said:


> Okay let me try again to explain more consisely. M' U2 M' U2 M2 U' M2 to set up case.
> 
> Okay so I identify any two colours on top that match each other in this case i'll choose RU and BU as they as both the same colours. When i do a m2 to finish 4b the BU edge will go to FD and the RU sticker will stay where it is.
> 
> ...



Hi, I also am trying roux and kinda have some sort of solution.
You see, the UL sticker is 'matched' with the ULB and UFL stickers into some sort of bar. When you see that, do the M2, then see if the top and bottom layer stickers are diagonal, but don't try to put the top/bottom layer stickers diagonally if they aren't. If they are not diagonal, leave them not diagonal (in this case it's an M2 and then U) do an M2 and then you can line the top/bottom layer stickers diagonally (using U2). Sorry I am not that good at explaining... Hope it helps. and the solution is just the mirror of your set up


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## oll+phase+sync (Jan 3, 2013)

joelwong said:


> Hi, I also am trying roux and kinda have some sort of solution.
> You see, the UL sticker is 'matched' with the ULB and UFL stickers into some sort of bar. When you see that, do the M2, then see if the top and bottom layer stickers are diagonal, but don't try to put the top/bottom layer stickers diagonally if they aren't. If they are not diagonal, leave them not diagonal (in this case it's an M2 and then U) do an M2 and then you can line the top/bottom layer stickers diagonally (using U2). Sorry I am not that good at explaining... Hope it helps. and the solution is just the mirror of your set up



If I add a Z-Perm to the Setup M' U2 M' U2 M2 U' M2 M2 U M2 F2 M2 F2 U' M2 - I still have some sort of bar to the left, but M2 U M2... if no good anymore.

Next I tried M' U2 M' U2 M2 U' M2 E2 M' E2 M - A real bar to the left again, but M2 U M2... is still no good.

I feel like you didn't mention the decision tree to use after: If 4b is finished , U-corners are aligned, non-diagonal edge case then ... ???

... 
a) see a double-isolated edge at UF than U2 M ...

... to be continued


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## chardison1980 (Apr 4, 2013)

hello all, 
ive been hard at work learning roux, and ive watched Donavons roux tut, 5dld, and others, I get lost when I have 2 edges not orientated the right way I tend to do the 2 edge flipper to fix them because I get lost on the right way to do it. does this seem ok or should I work on forcing my self to doing it the way its being taught on here.
my 2 edge flipper alg. 2 wrong orientated edges on top of the cube opposite of each other on the M slice I do this alg 
*m'um'um'um' u2 m'um'um'um' *or if I have 4 edges on top that are wrong I do this one *m'um'um'um'u u2 m'um'um'um'u' *thoughts on these thanks guys


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## already1329 (Apr 4, 2013)

Use M' U M U' M' U M' and M' U2 M' U2 M' U M'.


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## chardison1980 (Apr 5, 2013)

already1329 said:


> Use M' U M U' M' U M' and M' U2 M' U2 M' U M'.



I'm playing around with those and I'm getting lost on which ones are being fixed can you please explaine these


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## already1329 (Apr 5, 2013)

chardison1980 said:


> I'm playing around with those and I'm getting lost on which ones are being fixed can you please explaine these



When you do an M or an M', the orientation of the four edge pieces in the M slice change. So edges that are not oriented become oriented, and edges that are oriented become not oriented. Start with the initial orientation of the edges before the algorithm, and track the edges that aren't oriented as you do the algorithm, if you want to understand how it works. 
In my opinion, understanding the algorithm isn't very important.  Just memorize it and practice it a lot.


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## Speedmaster (May 22, 2013)

5BLD said:


> I have a nice strategy too; I identify BU sticker as I insert LR edges.



Could somebody explain that a bit more detailed? I've spent a lot of time to try to understand what you are doing, but i can't imagine, what the BU sticker helps you to do?


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## Kirjava (May 22, 2013)

the BU sticker allows you to know what case LL is with only looking at U and F faces


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## chardison1980 (May 22, 2013)

Hey guys I've been rouxing mainly working with the les for fixing them and after a few times or about an hour I can get them flipped now with little or no thought its easy now thanks


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## Speedmaster (May 23, 2013)

Kirjava said:


> the BU sticker allows you to know what case LL is with only looking at U and F faces



And how do I know what case it is? Is there a collection with pictures+algrhitm? I know, that there are 4 FUU cases, but I don't know how I should recognize them... I'm sub 12,5 but I always just solve the centers and then the D edges, I hate this step...


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## Kirjava (May 23, 2013)

you just kinda... know intuitively

there's no picturs or anything


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## Smiles (May 23, 2013)

the last step of roux isn't a collection of cases, if you've MU'd enough you would know all this stuff and be able to do it intuitively. actually you don't even need to know roux to figure it out.


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## already1329 (May 23, 2013)

Speedmaster said:


> And how do I know what case it is? Is there a collection with pictures+algrhitm? I know, that there are 4 FUU cases, but I don't know how I should recognize them... I'm sub 12,5 but I always just solve the centers and then the D edges, I hate this step...



See if the edge is connected to the center or not. You can determine the direction of the cycle.


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## n305 (Nov 19, 2013)

Athefre said:


> I'm unable to make a video. All I can do is say that I know what I'm talking about. I used many different techniques, including user suggestions and others of my own, for 5 years and wasn't satisfied. I've been using this for close to a year and it feels perfect.
> 
> To everyone: Try it. Use this for a while. Maybe even just give it 30 solves to get used to it.



Hi Athefre. Indeed this is nice and simple, but what about the method we came up in like 2010? Which was to track the edges that land on the sides before the last U/U' of 4b step, and then according to them make either U or U'. Using that method we are able to start the U2M2U2 and E2 case with the U2 already done (I know that the E2 is not necessarily a bad thing, it is the U2M2U2 that I am more concerned about)


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## Niceadam (Aug 21, 2015)

Really nice transition, it really removes recognition pauses and smooths out lookahead.. Thanks


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## GuRoux (Aug 21, 2015)

Niceadam said:


> Really nice transition, it really removes recognition pauses and smooths out lookahead.. Thanks



but it sometimes adds an extra move.


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## Niceadam (Aug 22, 2015)

i would rather look ahead and add an extra move than pause
in fact in normal recognition i sometimes have to do an M2 to be able recognize the cycle.


GuRoux said:


> but it sometimes adds an extra move.


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## GuRoux (Aug 22, 2015)

Niceadam said:


> i would rather look ahead and add an extra move than pause
> in fact in normal recognition i sometimes have to do an M2 to be able recognize the cycle.



true, i agree. BU recognition method is a much harder recognition that Alexander Lau ccreated that works and without adding an extra move. give that a look if you want.


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## Niceadam (Aug 22, 2015)

GuRoux said:


> true, i agree. BU recognition method is a much harder recognition that Alexander Lau ccreated that works and without adding an extra move. give that a look if you want.



i see you have made tutorial on it.. Thank you for the suggestion and by the way its a great honour to get a reply from the great GuRoux.


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## PenguinsDontFly (Aug 22, 2015)

Niceadam said:


> are there any tutorials on it?



guroux has one on his channel, and so does maps600.


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## tukra (Mar 29, 2016)

I've been interested in optimizing Roux LSE 4c cycles for a while and finally sat down and figured something out. I see many before me have come up with solutions. I started to look at them but I find it's best to make my own solution first then I can understand others better in comparison. Please criticize the following approach and tell me how it compares to the commonly used methods. I'm sure most/all of what's useful here is just another way of looking at existing ideas but still curious what you think of this viewpoint.

Orientation: D-White L-Blue

At the end of 4b, M2 to move Blue/Yellow and Green/Yellow edges to the top. 
Before any U move look at the LU and RU Red/Orange stickers.

If LU/RU are different (one Red, one Orange), then turn U so FU matches F center.
If Green is on the left then you are already out of the cycle.
If Blue is on the left: M2 U2.​
If LU/RU are the same (both Red or both Orange), then turn U so Blue is on the left.
If FU matches U center: M U2
If FU does not match U center: M' U2​
This seems like an efficient reduction of possible cases and it seems possible to get some lookahead, but I'm also not fast enough to know what enough lookahead is so maybe not.

EDIT: Simplified final recognition further.


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## Teoidus (Mar 29, 2016)

I think BU prediction is attempting to do a similar thing to what you're doing. I wrote up a post on that recently here; have a look and let me know what you think.

(Also, is reviving a thread this old acceptable on this forum? I'm not too familiar with the rules.)


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## shadowslice e (Mar 29, 2016)

Teoidus said:


> (Also, is reviving a thread this old acceptable on this forum? I'm not too familiar with the rules.)



Generally it's not encouraged unless you have something new to say although it usually better just to start a new thread. You won't get banned or anything for just one thread but some people may complain if it's over a year old.

You won't get banned or anything unless you bump multiple threads for no real reason at all. Usually anything from the first two pages is fine and though in general there will already be a general topic which you can post in.


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## TDM (Mar 29, 2016)

tukra said:


> I've been interested in optimizing Roux LSE 4c cycles for a while and finally sat down and figured something out. I see many before me have come up with solutions. I started to look at them but I find it's best to make my own solution first then I can understand others better in comparison. Please criticize the following approach and tell me how it compares to the commonly used methods. I'm sure most/all of what's useful here is just another way of looking at existing ideas but still curious what you think of this viewpoint.


I actually really like this. Much easier to learn than BU prediction. I think I'll learn it.  I've been having problems recognising cases with misoriented centres, but I like how this works for that too.


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## tukra (Mar 29, 2016)

Teoidus said:


> I think BU prediction is attempting to do a similar thing to what you're doing. I wrote up a post on that recently here; have a look and let me know what you think.



It was actually seeing your post on Reddit that got me to think about this again and finally cement the thinking I've done on it in the past. I'm sure BU is complete and efficient but when I see instructions like this it just seems overly complicated. What I like about my method is that it's simple, clear and efficient. For my skill level and speed it seems ideal. I'd be really interested to hear how it might not be as good as BU though but I can't tell on my own. 

The other thing is that when I looked at BU things in the past they start with U3 sometimes which seems easy to avoid using my method. That always dissuaded me from going further with learning it but maybe there is some useful tradeoff in there?



Teoidus said:


> is reviving a thread this old acceptable on this forum?



When I go to post a new thread I get this message. "Before creating this thread, make sure you have searched the forum to ensure the topic does not already exist." I almost ignored it but the fact that you have to click through it before you can post convinced me it meant what it said.


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## Teoidus (Mar 29, 2016)

tukra said:


> I'd be really interested to hear how it might not be as good as BU though but I can't tell on my own.



I think the main advantage of BU prediction is that you get all the information you need from very little "looks": you can see BU during ULUR, and then you get all the other info you need by glancing at F after ULUR is solved. The annoying part of BU prediction is that it takes a lot of thinking at first to figure out what you're supposed to do, which is it's major downside; the idea though is that that processing eventually isn't needed as you start to recognize the cases (there are only 6 really) automatically and they become muscle memory, much like any other step. The hard part is figuring out what stuff you actually want to look at in order to identify a case, and it's not one of those things where you can do it over and over and just sort of figure it out (at least it wasn't for me; I kept looking for blocks and didn't realize I had to look specifically for pieces with BU color). That's what I try to outline in the linked post--a system describing exactly what you should be looking for.




tukra said:


> The other thing is that when I looked at BU things in the past they start with U3 sometimes which seems easy to avoid using my method. That always dissuaded me from going further with learning it but maybe there is some useful tradeoff in there?



This sort of bugs me about BU as well, but I think you can avoid it if you pay attention to F while resolving ULUR--you just have to make sure you don't see a solid bar with BU color on F, and you can proceed normally (otherwise just AUF backwards in order to cancel out the U3 and you're OK). I've never been able to put this into practice, though, since I'm currently only able to track/predict BU.


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## GuRoux (Mar 29, 2016)

Teoidus said:


> This sort of bugs me about BU as well, but I think you can avoid it if you pay attention to F while resolving ULUR--you just have to make sure you don't see a solid bar with BU color on F, and you can proceed normally (otherwise just AUF backwards in order to cancel out the U3 and you're OK). I've never been able to put this into practice, though, since I'm currently only able to track/predict BU.



yes, I still do U3 because i never see the cancellation in time, somehow, alexander lau can pretty much always see it in time. could you guys post an example of these different methods with a scramble and solution so it is easier to follow? I think instead of BU, you can predict any of the hidden pieces, and that would work too. meaning you could also do DF, DB, BD, or BU.


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## Teoidus (Mar 29, 2016)

My method isn't really anything new--it's just my way of recognizing cases with BU prediction. I look for the block that involves BU color and recognize like that. There are 6 distinct cases.

Alg.cubing.net demo of all 6:

M'U2M'U2 // BU vert 2x1 down -> U2
(M'U2M'U2)'

MU2MU2M2 // BU 1x1 down -> M2
(MU2MU2M2)'

M2U2MU2M // BU 1x1 up -> M'
(M2U2MU2M)'

M2U2M'U2M // BU 2x1 up -> M'
(M2U2M'U2M)'

U2MU2M' // BU flat 2x1 up -> M
(U2MU2M')'

U2M'U2M' // BU 2x2 up -> M
(U2M'U2M')'

Out of curiosity, how are you deciding how to solve the rest using BU? In your video you say that you essentially solve the 3x1 line with BU color in it. Do you just approach this intuitively? (If so, it's possible you just learned the 6 cases I found by solving them so many times)


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## GuRoux (Mar 30, 2016)

Teoidus said:


> My method isn't really anything new--it's just my way of recognizing cases with BU prediction. I look for the block that involves BU color and recognize like that. There are 6 distinct cases.
> 
> Alg.cubing.net demo of all 6:
> 
> ...



note there is always going to be a solved block, kind of like a 1x2x2: 
for example: scramble: M' U2 M' U2
the solve "block" would be Front center, DF edge, and Down Center

the solution never breaks this solved "block."
so you just have to figure out how to connect the BU color into a line without breaking the block, should be pretty easy to figure out after playing around with it. 

In this case, BU matches the F center color and the FD color, so you just connect those with U2. then the rest should be obvious.


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## Teoidus (Mar 30, 2016)

ALright. I basically used that reasoning as basis when developing the 6 cases I had--so basically I just wrote out explicitly what you ended up figuring out. If only I had the intuition to do it implicitly...


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## oll+phase+sync (Mar 30, 2016)

tukra said:


> Orientation: D-White L-Blue
> 
> At the end of 4b, M2 to move Blue/Yellow and Green/Yellow edges to the top.
> Before any U move look at the LU and RU Red/Orange stickers.
> ...



If LU/RU are different: align M-edges and do the obvious.

If LU/RU are the same: align L/R-edges and do the obvious.

Writing it this way is much less precise, but it emphasizes how easy (and helpfull) it is.
(especially helpfull, if you missed the lookup step in Athefre's method, because of an unintended 4b skip )


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## alexela (Jul 23, 2016)

Teoidus said:


> Alg.cubing.net demo of all 6:


To reduce the number of moves, it is useful to remember the D2:

MU2MU2M2 // BU 1x1 down -> M2
*M'D2MD2*

M2U2MU2M // BU 1x1 up -> M'
*D2MD2M'*

M2U2M'U2M // BU 2x1 up -> M'
*D2M'D2M'*


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## TDM (Jul 23, 2016)

alexela said:


> To reduce the number of moves, it is useful to remember the D2:
> 
> MU2MU2M2 // BU 1x1 down -> M2
> *M'D2MD2*
> ...


D2 is very slow in solves, it requires a regrip and the longer solution is usually faster. You can use Uw moves: e.g. for the first one you can do M' Uw2 M' Uw2, but it's still difficult to do quickly. I think almost everyone uses the 5 move algs.


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