# 3x3 scrambles



## turtwig (Oct 27, 2015)

I kind of bothers me that a 2 move solve on the 3x3 would be a legal solve, and unless I'm interpreting the regulations wrong, 2 move 4-7 and mega solves are also legal.

An official scramble sequence must produce a random state from those that require at least 2 moves to solve
5x5x5 Cube, 6x6x6 Cube, 7x7x7 Cube, and Megaminx: sufficiently many random moves (instead of random state), at least 2 moves to solve.

Especially since the 2x2 needs 4 moves. I know that a scramble that easy is close to impossible, but I think that the rules should be updated so that a beginner can't go to a comp, get a 2 move scramble, then hold the world record forever.
I mean, if someone random got the single because of a ridiculously easy scramble, I'd be pretty pissed, and I think a lot of other people would be too.


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## MoyuFTW (Oct 27, 2015)

There are 43 quintillion possibilities. The chance of a one move solve would be one in 3 quintillion solves. The chance of a two move solve would be one in 796 trillion

I think.

So the possibilities of that actually happening are ridiculous. Besides everyone gets the same scramble. So the pros could probably execute it faster than a beginner

I think there is also some thing in the programming for the scrambler which says that you can't have R B B' R (two of the same moves in a row). Which means you could never undo the move in a 20 move scramble


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## supercavitation (Oct 27, 2015)

turtwig said:


> I kind of bothers me that a 2 move solve on the 3x3 would be a legal solve, and unless I'm interpreting the regulations wrong, 2 move 4-7 and mega solves are also legal.
> 
> An official scramble sequence must produce a random state from those that require at least 2 moves to solve
> 5x5x5 Cube, 6x6x6 Cube, 7x7x7 Cube, and Megaminx: sufficiently many random moves (instead of random state), at least 2 moves to solve.
> ...



Tnoodle rejects any state that requires fewer than 13 moves. So while a 3 move scramble is technically legal, it won't come up.


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## WACWCA (Oct 27, 2015)

Your only a little less likely to get a solved cube after a scramble than get a 2 move. Plus, if this actually happened, i think the WCA would probably not accept it. Plus like he said, the program wouldn't allow this


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## YouCubing (Oct 28, 2015)

I've used ChaoTimer for a long time now, and the lowest number of optimal moves I've seen is 15. And trust me, I've done thousands of 3x3, OH, FT, FMC, Mirrorblocks, Fisher Cube and Mastermorphix solves in my time.
(i can't do bld ;-; )


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## joshsailscga (Oct 28, 2015)

Not to mention that no matter if a two-move solution does come up in a competition, no delegate is going to look at that and allow it to be used.


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## CubeWizard23 (Oct 28, 2015)

joshsailscga said:


> Not to mention that no matter if a two-move solution does come up in a competition, no delegate is going to look at that and allow it to be used.



idk.... my brother once got a solved Megaminx as a scramble... .".125!!! WR" lol judge said "haha no way"


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## DGCubes (Oct 28, 2015)

CubeWizard23 said:


> idk.... my brother once got a solved Megaminx as a scramble... .".125!!! WR" lol judge said "haha no way"



I don't think that's because they scrambled it; I think it's because they forgot to. I've had that on many occasions, and they just send it back to the scrambling table. Although it is pretty funny whenever it happens.


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## Matt11111 (Nov 17, 2015)

DGCubes said:


> I don't think that's because they scrambled it; I think it's because they forgot to. I've had that on many occasions, and they just send it back to the scrambling table. Although it is pretty funny whenever it happens.



Can I get one of those this weekend? That'd be great.

Anyhow, I wouldn't worry about a stupid 2-move scramble coming up in 5x5 and up. There is no way anyone would allow that to be considered a world record of something like 0.5 or something ridiculous like that.


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## CubeWizard23 (Nov 23, 2015)

joshsailscga said:


> Not to mention that no matter if a two-move solution does come up in a competition, no delegate is going to look at that and allow it to be used.



actually the delegate is not allowed to screen scrambles... Reg 4b1


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## Xyfnez (Dec 27, 2015)

Just as a heads up, there's been a discussion regarding this issue in this thread from 2014. So anyone can read through that too if they want. 



supercavitation said:


> Tnoodle rejects any state that requires fewer than 13 moves. So while a 3 move scramble is technically legal, it won't come up.



Where did you read/find out about that? I looked through the source code very briefly and couldn't find anything.



MoyuFTW said:


> There are 43 quintillion possibilities. The chance of a one move solve would be one in 3 quintillion solves. The chance of a two move solve would be one in 796 trillion
> 
> I think.
> 
> So the possibilities of that actually happening are ridiculous. Besides everyone gets the same scramble. So the pros could probably execute it faster than a beginner



I don't think that, a "very small probability of happening" is a valid argument for this topic. We shouldn't be thinking, "it *probably won't* happen", but rather "it's *allowed* to happen". We should be thinking more about the outcome/effects of '*how would people react when we get a 2 move scramble at a competition*". If everyone(or a majority) feels no problems, then fine by me(I guess), but I'm pretty sure that's not the case.

To put it in an example, how would you feel if the top 30(or so) ranking for 3x3 single were all sub 2 seconds coming from a single competition? I, personally, would not be pleased. I feel like those times don't have any meaning. And people will probably just disregard them. 
(Oh, the OP(turtwig) basically said the same thing. lol)

I'd suggest having the limit be at least 4 for all NxN puzzles (but probably slighty more for higher order cubes since for example in 6x6 (F, Fw, 3Fw, 4Fw) will still be a fairly easy scramble)


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## Lucas Garron (Dec 27, 2015)

Xyfnez said:


> Just as a heads up, there's been a discussion regarding this issue in this thread from 2014. So anyone can read through that too if they want.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Indeed, 13 is incorrect. If you run TNoodle-WCA-0.10.0.jar and click on the question mark in, you can see:



http://localhost:2014/readme/scramble said:


> 2x2x2: ≥ 4 moves away from solved
> 3x3x3: ≥ 2 moves away from solved
> 3x3x3 no inspection: ≥ 2 moves away from solved
> 4x4x4: ≥ 2 moves away from solved
> ...



13 would also be against the Regulations (specifically, 4b3), which are quite unambiguous about everything except big cubes and Megaminx.


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