# Proposal: Should the WCA be responsible for lost/damaged puzzles during an attempt?



## Deleted member 19792 (Aug 10, 2014)

The title may seem a bit iffy, but here is the proposal.

At US Nationals, after placing my puzzle on the drop-off table, the puzzle and the scorecard were both stolen. I know it is bad to still obsess over this, but all in all, should the WCA be responsible for a puzzle you grant to them? 

Do you think it was a bad idea to have a drop-off table be right next to where competitors can enter/exit given the fact that someone can just take a cube up?

Do you think that in this case after granting your puzzle and trusting any organizer/runner/delegate/entire competition to take your puzzle, scramble it on their own terms and only use it for when you compete, should make them completely responsible for damaging, destroying, or losing the puzzle?

Speaking with some competitors after 4x4, they did have a pro-WCA is responsible thought, due to the fact that you don't know what is going on with your puzzle while you are in the waiting area.

Please post your thoughts/opinions and explain thoughtfully instead of jumping to an immediate "yes" or "no"


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## yoinneroid (Aug 10, 2014)

eh? I would say the organizers are the ones who are supposed to be responsible for this kind of thing


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## Deleted member 19792 (Aug 10, 2014)

yoinneroid said:


> eh? I would say the organizers are the ones who are supposed to be responsible for this kind of thing



I'm referencing the organizers as the WCA in general, since a delegate is present anyway.

Also, what if the organizer was the delegate?


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## notfeliks (Aug 10, 2014)

The WCA mostly relies on trust and integrity for this sort of thing (at least as I understand it).

Unfortunately, when given trust, certain individuals see it as opportunity instead. Despite being the scum of the earth for doing so, there's always going to be these people, and all we can do is deal with it.

It obviously couldn't hurt to have a trusted supervisor at both tables to try and minimise any foul play, but I don't know about staffing needs for massive competitions like US Nats, so maybe it's not possible.

I hope you get your puzzle back.


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## ryanj92 (Aug 10, 2014)

strakerak said:


> I'm referencing the organizers as the WCA in general, since a delegate is present anyway.
> 
> Also, what if the organizer was the delegate?



I agree with yoinneroid, i think it falls under 'organiser duty' rather than 'delegate duty', so whether the same person organises and delegates is besides the point...
Also how many comps have you been to that had of a one person organisation team?


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## Divineskulls (Aug 10, 2014)

I don't see any organizer I know stopping what they're doing to look for someone's stolen puzzle. I can see them making an announcement, seeing if anyone had found the puzzle, but they cannot be held responsible. 

I have never heard of anything like what happened to you happening at any other competition. I really think that puzzle being stolen right off the scrambling table is a very rare occurrence. 

Damaged puzzles caused by judges/scramblers? Yes, that is the fault of the person who damaged it, but I don't see any way of remedying the situation other than letting the competitor borrow someone elses puzzle.

I tend to try to keep track of where my puzzle is while it's on the scrambling table. Obviously I don't look at it while it's being scrambled, but sometimes I'll go up and check that the scorecard with my name on it is still up there somewhere when I haven't been called in a while.


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## TimMc (Aug 10, 2014)

In my opinion, no. It should be the responsibility of the organisers and individual volunteers (e.g. scramblers). Excesses for insurance would probably be at least a few hundred dollars so it'd be easier for an organiser to just pay a competitor enough to buy a new puzzle.

Tim.


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## Lucas Garron (Aug 10, 2014)

Is that a proposal, a question, or a grievance?

While in theory it would be nice to hold organizers/the WCA accountable to lots of standards (like NO FLASH PHOTOGRAPHY ANYWHERE IN THE AUDIENCE), there is a practical limit.
Even if organizers used more precautions, it would still be possible (probably quite easy) for someone to walk away with someone else's cube.

In general, these things are "at your own risk". It would be sad if either 1) organizers had yet another risk/liability to take on, or 2) they start subjecting competitors to non-indemnification clauses. (Like the "you consent to be filmed" signs. This would negate the whole point of making organizers responsible, but I think it would absolutely be within their prerogative.) I think relying on trust is much nicer and more practical.

I'm sorry that this happened, but this is the only case I can remember where someone's cube disappeared between dropoff and scrambling.
As far as I'm aware, it's also only *suspected* theft. Did you also check the museum lost-and-found before the end of the competition?

If enough people (including those with organization experience) agree, or if there is evidence of lots of cases I don't know about, I'd be happy to work on putting this somewhere in the Regs.
But at the moment, I have to say: I'm sorry, but this is not a reasonable policy right now.


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## CiaranBeahan (Aug 10, 2014)

I do think that the WCA should be responsible for losing puzzles, but only if they lose it. For example if someone was to just lose a puzzle at the table they sit at it isn't the WCA's fault. But if the Organizers or the people handling the puzzle from the time you give it in to the time you get it back after your solves, if they were to loose it then the WCA would have to take responsibility. IN MY OPINION.


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## Michael Womack (Aug 10, 2014)

Now if this has been the only time that this has happened in the past 11 years then it should't be a big issue. But I can see WCA looking into it if it happens like 10 or more times a month. Another thing is that who in the right mind would steal your card and cube right before you do the solve?


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## wontolla (Aug 10, 2014)

You don't mention what you mean by "responsible". Is it that the organizers should go and catch the thief? Or the WCA should write you a check? Or a written apology?


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## Deleted member 19792 (Aug 10, 2014)

Michael Womack said:


> Now if this has been the only time that this has happened in the past 11 years then it should't be a big issue. But I can see WCA looking into it if it happens like 10 or more times a month. Another thing is that who in the right mind would steal your card and cube right before you do the solve?




Don't know. He/She probably saw one of my unboxings.


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## Michael Womack (Aug 10, 2014)

strakerak said:


> Don't know. He/She probably saw one of my unboxings.



How would that determine if they should steal your cube?


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## Deleted member 19792 (Aug 10, 2014)

Michael Womack said:


> How would that determine if they should steal your cube?



They were dreaming for a Moyu 5x5?


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## maps600 (Aug 10, 2014)

I feel as though a non-cuber stole it. It was most likely a little kid who saw toys on a table and just took one without thinking. I think the WCA should attempt to keep the puzzles waiting to be scrambled in a better place with access to only the competitors.


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## Nestor (Aug 10, 2014)

If the organizer is held responsible for lost puzzles, then what? He should pay for them?

This can been exploited as someone can simply "steal" their own puzzle and get another one for free.


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## TimMc (Aug 11, 2014)

UnAbusador said:


> If the organizer is held responsible for lost puzzles, then what? He should pay for them?
> 
> This can been exploited as someone can simply "steal" their own puzzle and get another one for free.


This is a risk that Speedcubing Australia accept locally. But it wouldn't be worth submitting a claim because the excess is far greater. We need to have insurance to host events in public venues. And we need regular volunteers to get Working with children checks (criminal history check). The law varies from state to state... I'm sure it varies in the US too.

The dropoff/scramble table simply shouldn't be left unattended. Simply monitoring these tables could help reduce the risk of theft. We haven't had any puzzles stolen from these tables before. Organisers should just keep an eye out. 

We've had one incident where a judge accidentally put their practice cube in a cover after a solve and the competitors cube was left, misplaced, on the table.

That said, we've had a handful of thefts from practice tables and bags at a few competitions.

Tim.


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## Antonie faz fan (Aug 11, 2014)

I agree that organizers should be responsible, but I think the main reason the most people don't think this should happen is cuse a competitior could claim he lost the puzzle when he really didn't.


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## Dene (Aug 11, 2014)

If this happened at one of my competitions, I'd want to help out. But I don't think it should be a rule that it is the responsibility of anyone. When I read about the incident in the delegate report my first thought was "did you re-imburse the competitor?". I guess this could be a problem if it's an expensive or rare puzzle though...


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## TimMc (Aug 11, 2014)

Antonie faz fan said:


> I agree that organizers should be responsible, but I think the main reason the most people don't think this should happen is cuse a competitior could claim he lost the puzzle when he really didn't.



Taking responsibility for monitoring cubes doesn't mean you'll hand out cubes or cash to everyone that claims they've lost a cube.

If there's no evidence that a puzzle was placed on a scorecard then the competitor will need to trust the organisers. If a claim is made then the competitor will need to trust that the organisers will trust the competitor. If there's no trust and no evidence then it'll be difficult for the competitor to be compensated.

Scenario 1:
Organiser: "<BLAH> where's your cube!? Final call!"
Competitor: "I already put my cube on the scorecard!"
Organiser: "I didn't see you put it there."
Competitor: "WHAT!?!?!"
Organiser: "Do you have another cube?"
Competitor: "Where's my cube?"
Organiser: "I didn't see you put your cube here. Do you want to compete or not?"
Competitor: "WTH?"

Scenario 2:
Organiser: "<BLAH> where's your cube!? Final call!"
Competitor: "I already put my cube on the scorecard!"
Organiser: "Ah, that's right. You had a weird orange cube right?"
Competitor: "Yeah. Where is it?"
Organiser: "I'm not sure. Let me ask. HEY EVERYONE! HAVE YOU SEEN AN ORANGE CUBE?"
Audience: "... nope ..."
Organiser: "Do you have another cube?"
Competitor: "Yeah. But what about the orange one?"
Organiser: "We'll see if it turns up by the end of the day. If it doesn't I'll give you a new cube or money to get another orange cube."
Competitor: "GAH. Fine."

It seems like an isolated problem. Monitoring the dropoff/scramble table will significantly reduce the risk of theft. We've never had this type of theft in Australia.

If the problem occurred all the time then it might be worthwhile coming up with a process to reduce theft.

Tim.


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## Nestor (Aug 15, 2014)

What we did in our last competition was to place all scorecards inside cube covers at the chairs in the waiting area. As people where called they sat in their respective seats and waited for their cubes to be taken from them by the runners directly into the scrambling table. As people where finishing rounds, covers with new scorecards where placed in the empty seats and so on. 
Not very efficient, but is hard for a competitor to maliciously claim theft.

Then again we only did this because we lacked space and we had no drop-off table.


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## Cubeologist (Aug 15, 2014)

I do not think the organizers/wca should be responsible because they (for the most part) are donating their time and money to help. I do think that there should be more attention paid to where the cube drop off table is placed. I was nervous the whole time I was waiting on my 3x3 heat. I was just sitting there watching my cube on the blue stage drop off haha.


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## Bob (Aug 17, 2014)

Cubeologist said:


> I do not think the organizers/wca should be responsible because they (for the most part) are donating their time and money to help. I do think that there should be more attention paid to where the cube drop off table is placed. I was nervous the whole time I was waiting on my 3x3 heat. I was just sitting there watching my cube on the blue stage drop off haha.



That is very wise of you. If a few people took that attitude, someone would have probably noticed someone walking away with the cube. 

Someone mentioned earlier that an organizer wouldn't stop what they're doing to look for a lost cube, but that's not really true. Despite how busy I was at the competition, I did manage to solve two similar situations. In one case, a lost boy took a puzzle off the table and started walking away with it. I took the cube and we eventually found his parents. In another case, a puzzle was missing but the score card remained. I looked and found the cube within a few minutes on another table. 

If you are dropping off a puzzle, I think it is reasonable for a competitor to keep track of it until it is handled by a judge, scrambler, runner, organizer, delegate, etc. If it gets list after that, maybe they should be held responsible, but before that, you should keep an eye on it.

I agree the drop-off locations were not ideal, but space was limited and I don't think we had any better options.

In general, I don't like the idea of holding the organizers responsible. They're donating their time and I do not think any would steal maliciously. When competing, you run a (small) risk. Holding organizers responsible could lead to exploitation and cost innocent people money.


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## FallenCuber (Aug 17, 2014)

It's like a bank. If the bank gets robbed, it's not your fault. You put your money in the bank so it can be kept safe (and maybe grow but that's not the point) and although the organizer's goal is not to keep the puzzles safe, they do need to understand that they need to make sure the "money" isn't stolen from the "bank" seeing as they are in charge and currently holding the cubes in the possession.


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## Skullush (Aug 17, 2014)

Cubeologist said:


> I was nervous the whole time I was waiting on my 3x3 heat. I was just sitting there watching my cube on the blue stage drop off haha.



I did the same; the first event I competed in in the main room was Pyraminx round 2, and I sat kinda close to the drop-off area so I could watch it just in case. Some lady (who I'm certain has never seen a pyraminx before and was spectating) picked up my pyraminx as if it was hers and tried to look inside it, and then took a cap off of it accidentally. Luckily I was watching and took it back from her. It's just that a lot of the spectators at US Nationals this year were purely spectators, didn't have family competing or anything like that, and didn't really know the etiquette of cubing comps. Some spectators might have honestly thought that they were just free puzzles.


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## Kian (Aug 17, 2014)

FallenCuber said:


> It's like a bank. If the bank gets robbed, it's not your fault. You put your money in the bank so it can be kept safe (and maybe grow but that's not the point) and although the WCA's goal is not to keep the puzzles safe, they do need to understand that they need to make sure the "money" isn't stolen from the "bank" seeing as they are in charge and currently holding the cubes in the possession.



The WCA does not run competitions. The WCA is basically a rules governing body that judges the validity of solves based on the proper adjudication of their bylaws through their delegates. The WCA does not have any money or any employees. The WCA is not like a bank. The WCA is a group of people around the world who donate time and intellectual labor to the cause of cubing. Nobody is owed anything from the WCA. The opposite is much closer to true.

As for organizers, you cannot simply hold them responsible for anything that could go wrong at a competition. Doing so would incur a great deal of insurance liability that would frankly reduce the number of competitions that happen. If someone doesn't feel safe dropping off their cube, nobody is making them do so. There is an extremely small risk that something like this could happen, usually in a public venue like where we held US Nationals, but that is a small risk one may have to take if they want to compete.

Frankly, many organizers flatly will not be responsible for lost cubes. If people demand such protections, they will have fewer opportunities to compete.

Of note, obviously if I or anyone else is organizing a competition, we are doing our best to keep things in order. I will do everything I can to help people find their cubes, within reason, but holding people personally responsible is a slippery slope that does not end where you want it to end.

EDIT: The possibility of exploitation is ridiculously high. This has been mentioned earlier in the thread but I wanted to concur with that point, made by several people.


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## FallenCuber (Aug 17, 2014)

Edited My post, fixed the WCA issue, I meant to say organizers.



Kian said:


> As for organizers, you cannot simply hold them responsible for anything that could go wrong at a competition. Doing so would incur a great deal of insurance liability that would frankly reduce the number of competitions that happen. If someone doesn't feel safe dropping off their cube, nobody is making them do so. There is an extremely small risk that something like this could happen, usually in a public venue like where we held US Nationals, but that is a small risk one may have to take if they want to compete.



As for organizers, you can simply hold them responsible for anything that could go wrong at a competition, assuming they hold legality over the property that is being used. Although, we were on the topic of stolen cubes, your statement said anything, therefore I assume anything is in play. This organizer, under the law on Premises Liability, can be held responsible for far more than one thing that can and might go wrong at a competition, such as injury. Therefore, technically speaking if a risk has always been there, but has never been thought about, after a realization of the risk the number in competitions should not go down because we have simply been living with the risk the whole time. It's like saying, "After realizing someone *might* drown in the ocean, we should close it down to public access, even though nothing has gone wrong before, and might never go wrong." Although I do somewhat agree with your statement. A cuber is taking the risk of getting hurt, and should understand that mistakes happen, but once again, it is the organizer's property, therefore, it is also their issue, and should be taken care of. With that being said, my opinion (and its fine if you have a different opinion) is that the cuber should know that an outside source might steal his puzzle, no one can control that human being's actions, but maybe it could have been prevented, if stronger precautions were taken by the organizers. All in all, I still think organizers should be held responsible, due to the fact that in the end, they are the force stopping anyone from causing issues with their competition. Whether or not they are donating their time is besides the point, if donating, you should donate that time to the best of your abilities, and realize that it was you signing up for that, so don't complain about having to do work that you signed up for. As for damaged puzzles, obviously, if a puzzle is damaged by an individual that does not hold ownership over that puzzle, they should try to do the right thing and at least give them money for repairs or a new puzzle, no matter if you are an organizer or a fellow cuber. As for the WCA, I wish the poll was stated better, by saying that the organizer should be responsible, as I find it silly to blame the WCA even though I typed that by mistake in my initial reply.


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## Zoé (Aug 17, 2014)

FallenCuber said:


> It's like a bank. If the bank gets robbed, it's not your fault. You put your money in the bank so it can be kept safe (and maybe grow but that's not the point) and although the organizer's goal is not to keep the puzzles safe, they do need to understand that they need to make sure the "money" isn't stolen from the "bank" seeing as they are in charge and currently holding the cubes in the possession.



I just wanted to point out how wrong that comparison is!
Your bank has an ulterior motive in taking your money in. They use it make profit (and a lot of it!). As an organizer, I don't use your cube for anything. You putting it at the scrambling table is just part of the normal procedure so that you can get a solve, but I am not benefiting from it. I only organize competitions so people can have fun, break their PB's, meet each other, and so the community can grow, but it's not like I get paid for it, or get advantages somewhere... nothing!

Furthermore, you should know that banks are not as safe as you make it sound. In case they go bankrupt, you might never see your money again. In Belgium for example, our government guarantees that you will always have at least 20 000 euros back no matter what. Put more than that in the bank... it's at your own risk! 

Now I don't want to start going in depth in this thread, because I believe it's such a bad idea but my thought is this : if the potential risk that you might lose your cube at a competition is unbearable to you, then just stop going to competitions.


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## FallenCuber (Aug 17, 2014)

Zoé said:


> I just wanted to point out how wrong that comparison is!
> 
> Your bank has an ulterior motive in taking your money in. They use it make profit (and a lot of it!). As an organizer, I don't use your cube for anything. You putting it at the scrambling table is just part of the normal procedure so that you can get a solve, but I am not benefiting from it. I only organize competitions so people can have fun, break their PB's, meet each other, and so the community can grow, but it's not like I get paid for it, or get advantages somewhere... nothing!
> 
> ...




You are going too in depth about this bank. The point I was trying to make is, if a bank is in possession of your money and they lose it, then it was them who lost it, not you therefore they are responsible for getting the money back to you, and do actually try. Furthermore, if we want to get into the logistics of how safe a bank is, naturally the average stickup on rallies a few hundred dollars, which the bank can surely survive losing. Also, if your money is on a deposit and is insured by a branch of the federal government, during bankruptcy you won't lose any eliminating that issue, so technically there is no risk there. In the case of a large scale robbery, the bank has insurance to cover them so you get your money back, also, eliminating the risk. 


All of that wasn't technically the point of the my initial post, but I just had to clear up my reasoning for choosing a bank, the main point was, if we entrust you to take care of something of ours, you should be responsible for any mishaps to come. Lastly, as you said, you volunteer so that fellow cubers can have an enjoyable time. Well isn't sitting there worrying about the safety of the cubes taking away for the fun? If it is a strong priority to create a safe and fun environment, shouldn't the safety of cubes be taken more seriously?

NOTE: Also, it doesn't matter if the bank gets revenue from holding your money, as I stated in my second post, you are the one that signed up for volunteer work. If you are going to be upset about having to do work and not getting paid, don't sign up.


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## tseitsei (Aug 17, 2014)

Stupid proposal. 

Organizers/WCA are already doing this work voluntarily(spelling?) so why should we make their job harder than it needs to be. This is not really a common issue that happens a lot during comps.

Besides it would be SO easy to steal puzzles at competitions even if this was implemented if you wanted to. There are puzzles just laying on the tables all over the place but cubers are usually very nice people to each other and that's good. At least I don't want to stress holding my puzzles near/with me all the time during competition.


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## Ranzha (Aug 17, 2014)

At BASC 3, we used scrambler shields with two "windows", one ("solved cubes in") for competitors to slide their puzzles through for drop-off, and the other ("scrambled cubes out") for scramblers to slide puzzles out post-scramble. Runners were also told to slide their puzzles through the "solved cubes in" window when dropping off solved puzzles.

The only potential problem is people taking cubes after they've been scrambled, but since the puzzles are in covers, we never had an issue.

EDIT: Tim Reynolds liked the window idea too!


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## Dene (Aug 18, 2014)

FallenCuber said:


> You are going too in depth about this bank. The point I was trying to make is, if a bank is in possession of your money and they lose it, then it was them who lost it, not you therefore they are responsible for getting the money back to you, and do actually try.



Actually your bank analogy is simply way off.

How about this: If a crazy person on the street comes up and stabs me, can I hold the local council responsible for not keeping the streets safe? (even if they have an impeccable record and it was a one-off incident from someone with a massive brain tumour?)

Obviously the answer is no. This is a much more comparable example to what we organisers do.


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## Erik (Aug 18, 2014)

This is a clear "no". 

1. the Orga/Delegates do everything on a voluntary base, nobody can be held responsible 
2. the occurance is waaaay too small to call it a significant "risk". Cubes rarely actually get stolen on comps (mostly people just lose them) and certainly not after dropping off your cube.
3. good luck proving your cube got stolen and that you actually put your cube on the drop-off table

Also: if you want to clarify the issue by making analogies, it might be useful to overthink if it is actually applicable or not. Trying to compare the WCA with a bank or the local counsil is:
- false
- not helping
- not appropriate
- possibly confusing other people


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## Michael Womack (Aug 18, 2014)

Erik said:


> This is a clear "no".
> 
> 1. the Orga/Delegates do everything on a voluntary base, nobody can be held responsible
> 2. the occurance is waaaay too small to call it a significant "risk". Cubes rarely actually get stolen on comps (mostly people just lose them) and certainly not after dropping off your cube.
> ...



I agree With you Erik. I remember at USNATS2011 I was doing OH and they called the name Michael and I thought that was me but when I looked at the cube it didn't look like mine and it was another Michael's cube. But more often when people have there cubes spread out on tables that are not the Dropoff/Scramble/Timing tables sometimes we get the cubes mixed up as of what cube belongs to who or even sometimes we accidentally leave cubes behind.


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