# CubingUSA Regional Championships



## Bob (Sep 14, 2017)

Dear CubingUSA Community,

Beginning in 2018, CubingUSA would like to support the community by coordinating and overseeing the organization of regional championships, running them as CubingUSA Supported Competitions. Regions will be divided by state according to the map below.








The CubingUSA Board of Directors is now accepting applications for 2018 Regional Championships.

If you are interested in organizing one of these competitions, please submit an application, which will be reviewed by the Board for consideration. The application period ends on October 15, 2017.

The CubingUSA Board of Directors may consult with local USA delegates to make a decision about which application would be best for the community.

Thank you.


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## CornerCutter (Sep 14, 2017)

Awesome! This is great since I knew it was coming for a while.


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## JustinTimeCuber (Sep 14, 2017)

inb4 Justin Barker regional champion 2018


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## dbax0999 (Sep 14, 2017)

Underwatercuber said:


> Wait a sec... does this mean I could be Western Champ for clock!?



You'd have to get through me first.


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## One Wheel (Sep 14, 2017)

Would I be correct that you can attend any of the championships, but can only hold the regional champion title for the area where you live? I live at the western edge of the Great Lakes region, meaning that there is a good chance that the Heartland championships would be closer to me. I'm highly unlikely to ever be fast enough to hold a "champion" title, and I have to milk cows twice a day, so my geographic range is pretty limited.


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## Bob (Sep 14, 2017)

One Wheel said:


> Would I be correct that you can attend any of the championships, but can only hold the regional champion title for the area where you live? I live at the western edge of the Great Lakes region, meaning that there is a good chance that the Heartland championships would be closer to me. I'm highly unlikely to ever be fast enough to hold a "champion" title, and I have to milk cows twice a day, so my geographic range is pretty limited.


Yes, that is correct. Competitors may attend any number of these competitions, but may represent only one region, and thus are only eligible to hold "champion" titles at one regional competition per year.


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## Underwatercuber (Sep 14, 2017)

dbax0999 said:


> You'd have to get through me first.


What do you average? If you think your faster based off of WCA results just know I screwed up pretty bad at that comp  I average sub 8 at home


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## Yes We Can! (Sep 14, 2017)

Bob said:


> Yes, that is correct. Competitors may attend any number of these competitions, but may represent only one region, and thus are only eligible to hold "champion" titles at one regional competition per year.



But how do you define 'live'? If a student has a home region and a region in which they go to school, so spend half their time in one region and half in the other, do they get to pick, sort of like people with dual citizenship?


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## Underwatercuber (Sep 14, 2017)

Yes We Can! said:


> But how do you define 'live'? If a student has a home region and a region in which they go to school, so spend half their time in one region and half in the other, do they get to pick, sort of like people with dual citizenship?


I would guess it's the more permanent place of residence so it would be their home region.


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## Yes We Can! (Sep 14, 2017)

Underwatercuber said:


> I would guess it's the more permanent place of residence so it would be their home region.



But unlike with nationality, which is relatively fixed, this precludes people with a lifestyle without a permanent place of residence.


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## YouCubing (Sep 14, 2017)

i think you did a really good job with separating the states by general community (for example, pretty much all the people i see at a usual georgia comp are from the six states in the southeast region, and this applies to all the other ones as well but i don't go to those as often), so kudos for that.


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## Micah Walker (Sep 14, 2017)

sounds like a lot of fun, but when will these competitions be (before of after us nationals), and will there still be US nationals?


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## Competition Cuber (Sep 14, 2017)

Underwatercuber said:


> I average sub 8 at home


Really??? With a 13 seconds competition PB average and a 10 second PB single???


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## Kit Clement (Sep 14, 2017)

Yes We Can! said:


> But unlike with nationality, which is relatively fixed, this precludes people with a lifestyle without a permanent place of residence.



We will allow competitors to self-select their regions each year, on the stipulation that they have to show some evidence of living in that region if asked by organizers. So someone who has a permanent residence in one region but goes to school in another, for example, would be able to pick their region. 



YouCubing said:


> i think you did a really good job with separating the states by general community (for example, pretty much all the people i see at a usual georgia comp are from the six states in the southeast region, and this applies to all the other ones as well but i don't go to those as often), so kudos for that.



We asked for feedback on regions from as many delegates as possible when creating these regions, so we're glad to hear that people agree with our divisions. The western regions were by far the trickiest, especially dealing with Utah and Colorado.


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## Underwatercuber (Sep 14, 2017)

Competition Cuber said:


> Really??? With a 13 seconds competition PB average and a 10 second PB single???


Clock not 3x3... lol


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## Competition Cuber (Sep 14, 2017)

Underwatercuber said:


> Clock not 3x3... lol


Oh... lol. :fp


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## YouCubing (Sep 14, 2017)

so i was wondering if the split between regions is actually even, population-wise. so i checked (spoiler alert: it's not)
here's the spreadsheet

e: also here's all the tripoints between regions


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## Kit Clement (Sep 14, 2017)

YouCubing said:


> so i was wondering if the split between regions is actually even, population-wise. so i checked (spoiler alert: it's not)
> here's the spreadsheet
> 
> e: also here's all the tripoints between regions



Yeah, we struggled with area vs. population issues throughout making these regions. I wanted to add UT/CO to NW and strongly considered merging some regions like Heartland/Great Lakes, but that made it harder for people to travel a reasonable distance to a regional event. We decided to make the regions based on area rather than population, as we wanted to make more competitors within a reasonable distance of a regional event.


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## JustinTimeCuber (Sep 14, 2017)

YouCubing said:


> so i was wondering if the split between regions is actually even, population-wise. so i checked (spoiler alert: it's not)
> here's the spreadsheet
> 
> e: also here's all the tripoints between regions


you think you're a spreadsheet nerd

lol fight me

Here's the 2016 US Presidential election with the "states" as these regions. I took 2010 Census data and the congressional apportionment formula to reallocate the 435 representatives to these 7 "states", and added 2 to each one for the Senators. Since there are 100 Senators in real life and only 14 in fantasyland, the electoral college only has 538-86=452 (actually not) electors (which means Nate Silver will have to rename his blog...)

Completely ignoring the 23rd amendment gets us down to 449 electors.

_I sincerely apologize._


Hillary Clinton: 206
Donald Trump: 243

The only region where all states voted for the same candidate was the Southeast. 2 regions were close:
In the Heartland, Minnesota voted for Clinton.
In the South, New Mexico voted for Clinton.
why are we still using this archaic system in the first place!???


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## biscuit (Sep 15, 2017)

Second least population, second least cuber population 

GO HEARTLAND!!!!!

P.S This is my official recommendation to rename heartland to midcoast


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## YouCubing (Sep 15, 2017)

ok i also updated the sheet with area, if you don't count alaska then there's a group of 4 that are pretty close and a group of 3 that are too


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## Bob (Sep 15, 2017)

We debated regions very thoroughly among the CubingUSA Directors and the Delegates. We realized we would never make everybody happy with the way we split regions, but I think we can pretty close. As often as possible, we went with the recommendations of the local delegates to a particular region. In some cases, that was not possible, so we did the best we could to satisfy as many people as possible.


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## CornerCutter (Sep 15, 2017)

Kit Clement said:


> Yeah, we struggled with area vs. population issues throughout making these regions. I wanted to add UT/CO to NW and strongly considered merging some regions like Heartland/Great Lakes, but that made it harder for people to travel a reasonable distance to a regional event. We decided to make the regions based on area rather than population, as we wanted to make more competitors within a reasonable distance of a regional event.


The Northeast region should be spit up differently. There are some big cubing areas like Mass, NY, and MD area. There are too many people in that region compared to other areas.


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## YouCubing (Sep 15, 2017)

Bob said:


> We debated regions very thoroughly among the CubingUSA Directors and the Delegates. We realized we would never make everybody happy with the way we split regions, but I think we can pretty close. As often as possible, we went with the recommendations of the local delegates to a particular region. In some cases, that was not possible, so we did the best we could to satisfy as many people as possible.


yeah us geography is kind of awkward i think yall did a good job


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## One Wheel (Sep 15, 2017)

CornerCutter said:


> The Northeast region should be spit up differently. There are some big cubing areas like Mass, NY, and MD area. There are too many people in that region compared to other areas.



Ultimately it's probably better that regions are split primarily geographically. If the competition is too far away, there are a lot of people who won't be able to go. If there are more people in a region, and competition is tougher, then a) it is a bigger accomplishment to place well and b) you will likely rise to the level of your competition, and do better in other competitions.


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## Randon (Sep 29, 2017)

One Wheel said:


> Ultimately it's probably better that regions are split primarily geographically. If the competition is too far away, there are a lot of people who won't be able to go. If there are more people in a region, and competition is tougher, then a) it is a bigger accomplishment to place well and b) you will likely rise to the level of your competition, and do better in other competitions.


However, that means the other regions are also a) less of an accomplishment and b) doesn't make you rise as much to do better in other competitions. But I do think the regions are okay, it represents the actual population and demographics of the United States. It's tougher to start a successful business in New York than in South Dakota.


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## Bob (Oct 15, 2017)

Reminder that applications are due by October 15!


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## UnspeakableRebel (Nov 27, 2017)

Bob said:


> Reminder that applications are due by October 15!


When you see this at the end of November...


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## Ghost Cuber (Nov 27, 2017)

Any news yet?


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## WillyTheWizard (Nov 29, 2017)

Ghost Cuber said:


> Any news yet?


I ve been waiting for the info for ever! I am totally on ur side


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## Gomorrite (Dec 10, 2017)

YouCubing said:


> so i was wondering if the split between regions is actually even, population-wise. so i checked (spoiler alert: it's not)
> here's the spreadsheet
> 
> e: also here's all the tripoints between regions


Where did you get that "cuber population" from?


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## GenTheThief (Dec 10, 2017)

Gomorrite said:


> Where did you get that "cuber population" from?


I would assume from CubingUSA's state rankings.


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## WillyTheWizard (Dec 10, 2017)

WHEn is the decided date?


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## Bob (Jan 9, 2018)

CubingUSA Heartland Championship 2018 will be held at the Hyatt Regency Minneapolis on March 9-11, 2018.

Event website: https://www.worldcubeassociation.org/competitions/HeartlandChampionships2018


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## AidanNoogie (Jan 9, 2018)

Bob said:


> CubingUSA Heartland Championship 2018 will be held at the Hyatt Regency Minneapolis on March 9-11, 2018.
> 
> Event website: https://www.worldcubeassociation.org/competitions/HeartlandChampionships2018


Any news on the northeast championship?


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## teboecubes (Jan 9, 2018)

AidanNoogie said:


> Any news on the northeast championship?


Or southeast?


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## Bob (Jan 9, 2018)

Most competitions are in their final planning stages. The rest will be announced as soon as they are ready.


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## Competition Cuber (Jan 18, 2018)

If there any update on the northeast regionals?


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## Bob (Jan 19, 2018)

Competitions are being approved and announced on a rolling basis as the become ready. No information regarding individual championships will be announced before the official announcements on the WCA site.


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## Competition Cuber (Jan 19, 2018)

Bob said:


> Competitions are being approved and announced on a rolling basis as the become ready. No information regarding individual championships will be announced before the official announcements on the WCA site.


But do you have a timeframe planned?


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## Jaysammey777 (Jan 22, 2018)

Southeast Championship is announced!
https://www.worldcubeassociation.org/competitions/SEChamp2018


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## TipsterTrickster (Jan 22, 2018)

Jaysammey777 said:


> Southeast Championship is announced!
> https://www.worldcubeassociation.org/competitions/SEChamp2018


Wonder when north east will be announced, also are you Chris Tran?


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## Underwatercuber (Jan 22, 2018)

TipsterTrickster said:


> Wonder when north east will be announced, also are you Chris Tran?


That’s Jacob Ambrose I believe. 4Chan is chris trans username iirc


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## TipsterTrickster (Jan 22, 2018)

Underwatercuber said:


> That’s Jacob Ambrose I believe. 4Chan is chris trans username iirc


Ok thanks I was looking to show him something. (The photo threw me off)


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## joshsailscga (Jan 22, 2018)

TipsterTrickster said:


> Ok thanks I was looking to show him something. (The photo threw me off)



Protip: check out the attached WCA ID whenever available.


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## One Wheel (Jan 27, 2018)

How does the Great Lakes Championship not have feet? I only average about 2:00 on feet, which I'm sure wouldn't be good enough to win anything even if I could go (which I can't) but that's a very disappointing omission.

Edit: I just checked and there are no competitions holding feet scheduled in the Great Lakes region. The closest scheduled comps offering feet are the Heartland and SE Champs. I'm tempted to try setting up a feet-only (or at least mostly feet) comp so people can get nationals qualifying times, but realistically I'm close enough to Minneapolis (3 1/2 hours drive) that anybody who could come here could go there, and turnout for the comp here last week was poor enough that it's probably not worth it.


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## GenTheThief (Jan 27, 2018)

One Wheel said:


> How does the Great Lakes Championship not have feet? I only average about 2:00 on feet, which I'm sure wouldn't be good enough to win anything even if I could go (which I can't) but that's a very disappointing omission.



I was really disappointed when I saw that they didn't have it either. Especially since feet is the only event that I have a chance at podiuming in, since people are really fast at megaminx.
I'm really hoping that the organizers have a legitimate reason for not including the event.

But I've mostly become resigned to the fact that people just don't like it.


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## cubeshepherd (Mar 7, 2018)

YAY! The Southern Championships have been officially announced and is on the WCA website: https://www.worldcubeassociation.org/competitions/SouthernChampionship2018
https://www.worldcubeassociation.org/competitions/SouthernChampionship2018
I am most likely going, and I am really looking forward to it. Who else is going? 

Thank you to all the organizers and delegates for getting this and all of the Regional Championships organized, and either announced or soon to be announced.


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## Loser (Mar 7, 2018)

Every single regional except for northeast is public knowledge if you know where to look.


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## Bob (Mar 7, 2018)

Loser said:


> Every single regional except for northeast is public knowledge if you know where to look.


So true.


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## Jaysammey777 (Mar 7, 2018)

cubeshepherd said:


> YAY! The Southern Championships have been officially announced and is on the WCA website: https://www.worldcubeassociation.org/competitions/SouthernChampionship2018
> I am most likely going, and I am really looking forward to it. Who else is going?
> 
> Thank you to all the organizers and delegates for getting this and all of the Regional Championships organized, and either announced or soon to be announced.


Rip clock


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## Loser (Mar 8, 2018)

Bob said:


> So true.


Well of course you know them all because you're involved with the choosing and organizing of many, I'm involved with nothing.


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## cubeshepherd (Mar 8, 2018)

Loser said:


> Well of course you know them all because you're involved with the choosing and organizing of many, I'm involved with nothing.


So true.


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## RedJack22 (Mar 8, 2018)

Does anybody know when the Northwest Championships will be announced?


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## cubeshepherd (Mar 8, 2018)

RedJack22 said:


> Does anybody know when the Northwest Championships will be announced?


From what I have heard on the regionals thus far, all the the remaining one that have not been announced will most likely be announced by this weekend (March 9-11). I am not positive if that remains true for all of the competitions, but that was the last I heard on them.


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## RedJack22 (Mar 8, 2018)

cubeshepherd said:


> From what I have heard on the regionals thus far, all the the remaining one that have not been announced will most likely be announced by this weekend (March 9-11). I am not positive if that remains true for all of the competitions, but that was the last I heard on them.


Yes! I'm a hoping so! Thank you!


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## Loser (Mar 9, 2018)

IDK ab others but I highly doubt NE champs will be announced by this weekend


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## RedJack22 (Mar 9, 2018)

Loser said:


> IDK ab others but I highly doubt NE champs will be announced by this weekend


But what about NW champs?


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## weatherman223 (Mar 9, 2018)

Kit told me the other day that NW Champs are going to be held around the same time, same venue in Portland and same schedule iirc, so if you can go to Portland in late June-early julyish, then you should be good.


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## Loser (Mar 9, 2018)

The location and date for nw champs are on a public docunebt


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## weatherman223 (Mar 9, 2018)

Loser said:


> The location and date for nw champs are on a public docunebt


Is the location for western champs on the doc?


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## Loser (Mar 9, 2018)

Yes
All unannounced except ne


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## RedJack22 (Mar 9, 2018)

Loser said:


> The location and date for nw champs are on a public docunebt


And where is that?


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## Loser (Mar 9, 2018)

Its a public document find it yourself hehehehehe


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## RedJack22 (Mar 9, 2018)

Loser said:


> Its a public document find it yourself hehehehehe


Or do you know where it is? All search engines are blocked by my parents on our PC, so I can't find it


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## Loser (Mar 9, 2018)

I highly doubt Google would work but it is a public document


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## joshsailscga (Mar 9, 2018)

Loser said:


> I highly doubt Google would work but it is a public document



Gee thanks for the help


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## Loser (Mar 9, 2018)

Lmao trying not on laugh in math vlass


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## Mike Hughey (Mar 9, 2018)

I find it disappointing that no one who knew this was willing to help. I searched and found it. I guess there was a hint there - it's available from the "Public Documents" menu choice on the CubingUSA website:
https://cubingusa.org/about/documents

The locations of the other regionals are in the board minutes summary log.

Northwest Championships are in Portland OR. Western Championships are in Berkeley CA.


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## Loser (Mar 9, 2018)

I was worried that a delegate would get angry at me but yeah that's it


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## RedJack22 (Mar 9, 2018)

Mike Hughey said:


> I find it disappointing that no one who knew this was willing to help. I searched and found it. I guess there was a hint there - it's available from the "Public Documents" menu choice on the CubingUSA website:
> https://cubingusa.org/about/documents
> 
> The locations of the other regionals are in the board minutes summary log.
> ...


Thanks!


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## Loser (Mar 9, 2018)

On a slightly unrelated note, do you guys think Daniel rose Levine can get platinum this weekend?
He needs 5bld and a wr, and considering he has 2 rounds of feet, and a 23 ao100 when wr avg is 26, feet is def reachable. It is also ao5 so one bad solve won't mess him up.
5bld will be the question.


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## -RandomCuber- (Mar 11, 2018)

Of course the only one not announced is NE. Anyone know if they are gonna announce it today or anytime this week?


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## Loser (Mar 11, 2018)

Def not on wca, maybe in a few weeks on the sheet


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## -RandomCuber- (Mar 11, 2018)

Loser said:


> Def not on wca, maybe in a few weeks on the sheet


Do you have a link to the sheet


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## TipsterTrickster (Mar 11, 2018)

-RandomCuber- said:


> Do you have a link to the sheet


https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1EbmqG-bOzBaa43QUU_3907myez7GzITqDL4etvvrPvM/htmlview#gid=0


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## weatherman223 (Mar 11, 2018)

Western Championships will be held in Berkeley, CA, on June 15-17, which will have all events except for feet and clock.

https://www.worldcubeassociation.org/competitions/WesternChampionship2018


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## -RandomCuber- (Mar 15, 2018)

Anything announced for NE yet?


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## AidanNoogie (Mar 16, 2018)

-RandomCuber- said:


> Anything announced for NE yet?


Nope.


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## Competition Cuber (Mar 16, 2018)

AidanNoogie said:


> Nope.


At Novacube last wknd, I heard a rumor that it was in Connecticut.


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## AidanNoogie (Mar 16, 2018)

Competition Cuber said:


> At Novacube last wknd, I heard a rumor that it was in Connecticut.


I hope they were right. I'm only A few hours away.


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## Competition Cuber (Mar 16, 2018)

AidanNoogie said:


> I hope they were right. I'm only A few hours away.


BTW, I also heard that Keaton said that there was a strong chance of 2019 US nats being in maryland.


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## AidanNoogie (Mar 16, 2018)

Competition Cuber said:


> BTW, I also heard that Keaton said that there was a strong chance of 2019 US nats being in maryland.


That's would be awesome!


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## MJBCuber (Apr 5, 2018)

Yeah Maryland would be a good change frim the west amd midwest.


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## MJBCuber (Apr 5, 2018)

Competition Cuber said:


> At Novacube last wknd, I heard a rumor that it was in Connecticut.


I heard the same thing from a different source. I hope it's not a rumor


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## AidanNoogie (Apr 5, 2018)

MJBCuber said:


> I heard the same thing from a different source. I hope it's not a rumor


Same.


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## TipsterTrickster (Apr 5, 2018)

Competition Cuber said:


> BTW, I also heard that Keaton said that there was a strong chance of 2019 US nats being in maryland.


That would be awesome!!!!


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## Underwatercuber (Apr 5, 2018)

Western champs doesn’t have clock  there goes my chance of being a regional champion.


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## GenTheThief (Apr 7, 2018)

Underwatercuber said:


> Western champs doesn’t have clock  there goes my chance of being a regional champion.


I know how you feel.
Great lakes Champs doesn't have Feet.


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## Loser (Apr 8, 2018)

Northeast champs doesn't have a few events, can't remember which ones.
i think 4bld 5bld mbld clock feet, idk tho


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## -RandomCuber- (Apr 14, 2018)

Loser said:


> Northeast champs doesn't have a few events, can't remember which ones.
> i think 4bld 5bld mbld clock feet, idk tho


Where is NE champs


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## RedJack22 (Apr 14, 2018)

Underwatercuber said:


> Western champs doesn’t have clock  there goes my chance of being a regional champion.


When are the Northwest champs going to be?


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## Underwatercuber (Apr 14, 2018)

-RandomCuber- said:


> Where is NE champs





RedJack22 said:


> When are the Northwest champs going to be?


I think the info for both is public on the wca site


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## -RandomCuber- (Apr 15, 2018)

Underwatercuber said:


> I think the info for both is public on the wca site


I could only find that they approved NE champs, but not the location or date


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## DanpHan (Apr 16, 2018)

Kit Clement said:


> We will allow competitors to self-select their regions each year, on the stipulation that they have to show some evidence of living in that region if asked by organizers. So someone who has a permanent residence in one region but goes to school in another, for example, would be able to pick their region.



I take it that this is the decision that caused me to lose 3 Southeast Champion titles to someone currently registered as a citizen of Taiwan because he's going to school in Florida.


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## Loser (Apr 16, 2018)

And caused Tommy cherry to lose another 1 or 2


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## Kit Clement (Apr 17, 2018)

DanpHan said:


> I take it that this is the decision that caused me to lose 3 Southeast Champion titles to someone currently registered as a citizen of Taiwan because he's going to school in Florida.



"Lose" implies you believe you are entitled to win those awards. These were the policies we set in place for regionals, and the policies did not cause you to "lose" anything. Only the fact that you did not have the fastest time among eligible competitors caused you to not win those titles.


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## obelisk477 (Apr 17, 2018)

Kit Clement said:


> "Lose" implies you believe you are entitled to win those awards. These were the policies we set in place for regionals, and the policies did not cause you to "lose" anything. Only the fact that you did not have the fastest time among eligible competitors caused you to not win those titles.



I mean sure, but you know what he means, and you didn't address the point fairly: that it seems illogical that someone who is not even a citizen of the United States could win an award for a United States regional championship.

Not sure how that works for national championships, but it would make sense to add the rule that you must at least be a citizen of the country for the regional championship for which you are competing in order to be eligible for the title


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## Kit Clement (Apr 17, 2018)

obelisk477 said:


> I mean sure, but you know what he means, and you didn't address the point fairly: that it seems illogical that someone who is not even a citizen of the United States could win an award for a United States regional championship.
> 
> Not sure how that works for national championships, but it would make sense to add the rule that you must at least be a citizen of the country for the regional championship for which you are competing in order to be eligible for the title



Well, Daniel didn't really address the point fairly either. It's one thing to disagree with how the champions are determined, and another to act entitled for something that was not earned.

CUSA in general has a fairly inclusive policy when it comes to foreign competitors. At most national championships, you don't see any international competitors recognized during awards or given prizes, but the US has always traditionally been different about this, mostly because almost all who compete in the US have the nationality anyway. It seems silly to exclude such a small sector of competitors from the competition's awards, and it encourages others from afar to travel to our event, making nationals on a competitive level above most national events.

We took a similar philosophy when writing out the policies for regional events. State rankings have traditionally been inclusive to anyone residing in the USA, and this policy has continued for regional rankings/titles. Yes, this means that you can be eligible for a regional title and not a national title, but this is because of a conscious choice we made to base regional events purely on residency, where WCA's national level events are based on nationality -- residency is determined by CUSA, and nationality is determined by the WCA.

I'll bring this up again with the CUSA team to hear other thoughts as well though.


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## Bob (Apr 17, 2018)

One of the considerations we made when drafting our policy was that not all residents of the United States are citizens. Only approximately 93% of United States residents are citizens as there are plenty of people who live here without citizenship. Moreover, many people claim dual citizenship and have chosen not to use their United States citizenship for their nationality in the WCA. To me, it seems more unfair to exclude non-citizens when determining champions.


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## DanpHan (Apr 17, 2018)

Kit Clement said:


> Well, Daniel didn't really address the point fairly either. It's one thing to disagree with how the champions are determined, and another to act entitled for something that was not earned.



I will say that I probably could have worded that better. My point wasn't to act entitled to something I didn't earn. I'm fully aware that I lost to an eligible competitor. My whole point is that the eligibility requirements are stupid.

If the eligibility requirements allow competitors to represent an area of a country that they don't represent on their WCA profile (which I recognize is different than CUSA), then I fully accept that he "earned" the title. I also am fully within my rights to voice my opinion that that title is now completely meaningless and doesn't represent what it's supposed to at all, and that CUSA's eligibility requirements are absolutely incompetent. They might as well call the title "group of people within this set of strange arbitrary rules champion."

I'm not sure why you think it's "silly" to exclude people from an exclusive title, but you can think whatever weird things you want to.

(no ill intent towards the competitor that won the titles)


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## DanpHan (Apr 17, 2018)

Bob said:


> One of the considerations we made when drafting our policy was that not all residents of the United States are citizens. Only approximately 93% of United States residents are citizens as there are plenty of people who live here without citizenship. Moreover, many people claim dual citizenship and have chosen not to use their United States citizenship for their nationality in the WCA. To me, it seems more unfair to exclude non-citizens when determining champions.



Why does it matter how many of the competitors are US competitors? I'm sure most people that compete at Euros are from Europe as well. That doesn't mean that everyone should be eligible to be European Champion, and if they are, then it isn't really the European Championship is it?

Your point about dual citizenship is something that I also considered before I posted anything about this. I'm sure many people have chosen not to identify themselves as US citizens instead of their other country. That makes it even worse. If a competitor wants to be eligible for a US regional title, I don't think it's that unfair to expect them to make the CHOICE to represent either one country or the other. The current system being used allows competitors to choose to represent both and benefit from both if they choose to. I know that this is determined by two separate entities, I just don't agree with it.


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## obelisk477 (Apr 17, 2018)

Bob said:


> Moreover, many people claim dual citizenship and have chosen not to use their United States citizenship for their nationality in the WCA.



Fine, but in making that choice, it seems to me that they are making the choice for their home country to be the place where they would like to be eligible for NRs, titles, etc. And so the corollary then is that they would be ineligible for titles in the place they did not choose (i.e. the US).



Bob said:


> To me, it seems more unfair to exclude non-citizens when determining champions.



I agree, but only to a certain extent. Let's say a student moves from France to the Northeast US for school in August, and wins Northeast Champs for 4x4 in September. Is the spirit of the regional championship title really embodied by this person who has lived in the US for 1 month? I would think not. What about if they had lived there 6 months? Probably not. 2 years? 5? 10? Certainly someone who has been in the region for 10 years would be well known, dominant at comps in the area, and would be considered in the minds of the people around him/her as 'the best in the area at suchandsuch event', and would be worthy of the title regardless of citizenship.

I think the line is somewhere in there, and it is up to CUSA to determine that. Maybe you would have had to live in that region 5 years to be eligible for a championship? Seems like a reasonable place to start.

That gets kinda nit-picky I guess, but I think Daniel's objection is a valid one, and deserves more consideration at the least.


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## shelley (Apr 17, 2018)

obelisk477 said:


> I think the line is somewhere in there, and it is up to CUSA to determine that. Maybe you would have had to live in that region 5 years to be eligible for a championship? Seems like a reasonable place to start.



Out of curiosity, how would you propose that be enforced?


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## Kit Clement (Apr 17, 2018)

DanpHan said:


> If the eligibility requirements allow competitors to represent an area of a country that they don't represent on their WCA profile (which I recognize is different than CUSA), then I fully accept that he "earned" the title. I also am fully within my rights to voice my opinion that that title is now completely meaningless and doesn't represent what it's supposed to at all, and that CUSA's eligibility requirements are absolutely incompetent. They might as well call the title "group of people within this set of strange arbitrary rules champion."
> 
> I'm not sure why you think it's "silly" to exclude people from an exclusive title, but you can think whatever weird things you want to.



The main thing we wanted to do was provide titles for the local community of cubers, the people that typically go to competitions together in a specific area. The local community has everything to do with residency, not WCA nationality. Whether or not you include/exclude foreign competitors just changes the eligibility pool, and makes it even narrower. So I don't really see how either case is less of a "group of people within this set of strange arbitrary rules champion."

However, I realize that it's a valid point that Yi-Fan doesn't seem like a part of the local community, as he has only been there for a few months. I think that considering the length of time they have established residency would be a good thing to consider in theory, but this makes our job much more difficult (in some cases, impossible) to determine eligibility, as Shelley mentioned. This would affect anyone who wants to claim a certain region, not just competitors of foreign nationality. I'm open to making adjustments in future years, but I'm unsure of how to reconsider cases like these in a fair/manageable way.


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## DanpHan (Apr 17, 2018)

Kit Clement said:


> The main thing we wanted to do was provide titles for the local community of cubers, the people that typically go to competitions together in a specific area. The local community has everything to do with residency, not WCA nationality. Whether or not you include/exclude foreign competitors just changes the eligibility pool, and makes it even narrower. So I don't really see how either case is less of a "group of people within this set of strange arbitrary rules champion."
> 
> However, I realize that it's a valid point that Yi-Fan doesn't seem like a part of the local community, as he has only been there for a few months. I think that considering the length of time they have established residency would be a good thing to consider in theory, but this makes our job much more difficult (in some cases, impossible) to determine eligibility, as Shelley mentioned. This would affect anyone who wants to claim a certain region, not just competitors of foreign nationality. I'm open to making adjustments in future years, but I'm unsure of how to reconsider cases like these in a fair/manageable way.



Fair enough points, I just don't agree with that vision of how the regional championships should be. I agree that pretty much no matter what rules you have in place it's going to be arbitrary to some extent, I just don't personally believe that the current rules are able to fairly represent regional champions.

Just to clarify, I didn't personally make the suggestion regarding the length of time that someone has been a resident of a region. I'm guessing that part was a reply to Chad's point but just in case.


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## Ronxu (Apr 17, 2018)

>caring this much about regional titles
These are literally normal comps with a dope name.


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## DanpHan (Apr 17, 2018)

Ronxu said:


> >caring this much about regional titles
> These are literally normal comps with a dope name.


i mean it's not like i was gonna lose my mind over it, i was just talking about a thing i don't like


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## ToastyKen (Apr 17, 2018)

DanpHan said:


> I just don't agree with that vision of how the regional championships should be. I agree that pretty much no matter what rules you have in place it's going to be arbitrary to some extent, I just don't personally believe that the current rules are able to fairly represent regional champions.



The question is: What SHOULD regional champions represent?

Keep in mind that it has to be something we can actually build rules around and enforce.

Note that, unlike the case with national citizenship, there is no simple concept of state-level "citizenship". Residency is the only way to determine regional eligibility in an enforceable way.

At that point, you basically have the following options:

(A) Regional titles are available to anyone who lives in the region.
(B) Regional titles are available to anyone who both lives in the region AND is a US citizen.
(Maybe some variants on B, like also accepting "green card"-holding permanent residents.)

So what does a regional champion represent?

If you go with (A), you'd get:

*Regional champions are the best cubers who currently live in the region.
*
If you go with (B), you'd get:

*Regional champions are the best US citizen cubers who currently live in the region.*

That actually feels more arbitrary to me.

(A) is simpler, and it puts the emphasis on the regional community rather than legalities.

Note that the system DOES prevent people from getting a regional title from a region they don't live in.


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## FatBoyXPC (Apr 17, 2018)

Kit Clement said:


> However, I realize that it's a valid point that Yi-Fan doesn't seem like a part of the local community, as he has only been there for a few months.



I disagree with this, and I imagine most competitors who frequent FL competitions would also disagree.

Regarding this arbitrary residency length of time: While I know CubingUSA discussed this, maybe it's not apparent to people who weren't part of the discussion: What about people who move? What about people who go to school in a different part of the country? I'd say 4 years worth of competing in a given region sure is worthy of winning a regional title.

The actual bottom line to the specific situation at hand, though, is that Yi-Fan will continue to be a part of the the region (at least until he moves for school again).


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## obelisk477 (Apr 17, 2018)

shelley said:


> Out of curiosity, how would you propose that be enforced?





Kit Clement said:


> I'm open to making adjustments in future years, but I'm unsure of how to reconsider cases like these in a fair/manageable way.



How about (in addition to the existing rules) in order to be eligible for the 20XX Regional Championship title, you had to have competed in that region in the year (20XX-2), or older? So for this years eligibility, someone would have had to competed in 2016 or before in the region. That would all but establish residency (inasmuch as that is possible with data in the WCA database) for at least a year, and should be easy to automate.


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## shelley (Apr 17, 2018)

obelisk477 said:


> How about (in addition to the existing rules) in order to be eligible for the 20XX Regional Championship title, you had to have competed in that region in the year (20XX-2), or older? So for this years eligibility, someone would have had to competed in 2016 or before in the region. That would all but establish residency (inasmuch as that is possible with data in the WCA database) for at least a year, and should be easy to automate.



Then you're arbitrarily excluding new competitors, and people who live in areas who may not have many competitions. Why shouldn't they have a chance at a championship title?


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## obelisk477 (Apr 17, 2018)

shelley said:


> Then you're arbitrarily excluding new competitors, and people who live in areas who may not have many competitions. Why shouldn't they have a chance at a championship title?



Okay, competitors of foreign citizenship must have competed in the region in (year-2) or earlier, whereas citizens of the US don't have to have this requirement. 

I don't think that's particularly exclusive, nor is it unfair. They can still compete, and still win the competition as a matter of fact; they just won't be eligible for the regional title administered by CUSA until they have competed in the region for at least a year.


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## DanpHan (Apr 17, 2018)

ToastyKen said:


> The question is: What SHOULD regional champions represent?
> 
> Keep in mind that it has to be something we can actually build rules around and enforce.
> 
> ...



You say all of that, but they aren't regions of nothing. They're regions of the United States. I don't think it makes much sense that someone can represent a region of a thing without first representing that thing.

I'm aware that the system prevents people from winning a regional title from a region that they don't live in. I don't agree that living in a region for some amount of time is grounds for you to be able to represent that region when you've made the decision to represent a different country instead of the country that the region is a part of, or can't represent it. I also don't agree that being an established part of the regional community means that you should be able to represent the region.

As an example, I bring up Kevin Min. I think he's a cool guy and I would very much consider him a part of the regional community. That said, he's registered as a citizen of Korea. I think it's fair to consider him as part of the US cubing community as well, but that doesn't make him eligible to become US national champion. I really hate to say that because he's my friend and I don't have any ill intent towards him, especially since I don't think he's done anything wrong, but it is what it is. Regardless, I'm happy for him on his wins.

This is all my opinion of how regional championships should be. You can have whatever opinion of how it should be that you want, but I don't think I'm going to be the only one that disagrees with the way things currently are, and either way, I don't believe that's an unfair view of how regional championships should be.


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## weatherman223 (Apr 18, 2018)

If you live there, you qualify.

/thread


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## shelley (Apr 20, 2018)

I think it makes more sense for someone to be able to represent the place where they call home rather than the country they happen to have a passport from. There are probably lots of non-US citizens who haven't been to the country of their birth in years, and while it's how the WCA does things, IMO it actually makes less sense for them to be able to represent a country they don't live in.

We've established residency requirements for determining regional championship eligibility as well as rules to prevent people from winning titles in more than one region in one year. I think those requirements by themselves are sufficient without having to bring citizenship into the mix.

If we think the system is being abused, we may revisit these policies. However, a college student representing the region where they're living and going to school is the system working as we intended.


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## Duncan Bannon (Nov 21, 2018)

Bump!

Any news for these in 2019? I know they lost a lot of money, but I would love to see these brought in 2019!


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## Ghost Cuber (Nov 21, 2018)

Duncan Bannon said:


> Bump!
> 
> Any news for these in 2019? I know they lost a lot of money, but I would love to see these brought in 2019!


I know at least some of them are in the works, but I think it will still be quite a while before they are announced


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