# Should shorter events singles be not counted for records (NR/CR/WR)?



## abunickabhi (Mar 5, 2021)

Original discussion here: https://forum.worldcubeassociation....les-be-not-counted-for-records-nr-cr-wr/12783

This is quite an obvious topic and there have been a few discussions in the past over the years, but now that some events have gotten even faster with better hardware, we can try to revisit this topic.

There are various ways of classifying or getting a threshold to what maybe called a fast event. The fastest events statistically are in the order 2x2, Skewb, Pyraminx, clock, 3x3 and so on (if we consider only the top 100 solvers say).
If we consider all the solvers in the WCA database, and look for the fastest events, the list or order might differ a bit (I have not computed that yet!)

The first discussion we can start having is with the 2x2 singles.

There has been some saturation of the singles curve as compared to the average curves for various populations. For other events, this effect is a bit less pronounced. Also, for longer events there is this case where a person has a long standing record in singles, and that might be causing a small flat curve.

Some events like Rubik’s Magic in the past, had flat lines throughout the population, and the better solver was only decided in milliseconds, without the better solver needing to be more creative or knowledgeable or having better solving technique. I am not saying that 2x2 singles and Rubik’s Magic singles are the same, 2x2 is definitely a more complex event, but the singles record is more scramble dependent, and the aspect of the better solver just being able to execute a few milliseconds faster comes into the picture.

What are your views?


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## ZB2op (Mar 5, 2021)

I think it's fine as it is because people know It's less impressive and tps still takes skill especially for something like pyraminx where turning is different.


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## xyzzy (Mar 5, 2021)

The nuclear option: get rid of single records and rankings _entirely_ (except for 4BLD, 5BLD and MBLD). (Personal records ("official PBs") can stay.)

The semi-nuclear option: continue recognising singles, but make them much less prominent on the WCA website. Currently, the rankings page defaults to showing singles regardless of event, which doesn't exactly make sense.

Looking at curves or record progressions seem like red herrings to me. I'd say that the purpose of official records is to signify that so-and-so person has managed to be the "best" at that event at that point; as averages are much less luck-dependent, they are much better indicators of skill than singles are. This obviously remains true even for the events that aren't super fast. All in all, single records don't really serve much of a purpose at all.

Multiblind is the only event where an average-of-x or mean-of-x format doesn't even make sense since the scoring isn't purely numerical and comps often only have one or two MBLD attempts. I'm willing to grant exceptions to 4BLD and 5BLD only because the success rates of those events are generally quite low, and recognising only means would be too onerous. I'm on the fence regarding 3BLD for some complicated reasons I don't feel like going into.


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## qwr (Mar 5, 2021)

xyzzy said:


> The semi-nuclear option: continue recognising singles, but make them much less prominent on the WCA website. Currently, the rankings page defaults to showing singles regardless of event, which doesn't exactly make sense.


I agree with this. I think pretty much everyone understands that an ao5 is a much better measure of skill over luck compared to a single.

I can't in good conscience advocate removing 2x2 singles because 2x2 is a classic nxn event that has always been a staple of all competitions and removing singles feels wrong. The leaderboard has less changes than other events but it is still moving: in the top 10 there are several results from 2018 and 2019 (considering that comps haven't reopened most places in 2020 and 2021). Also there is still movement in country and continent rankings and I think people deserve to have those recognized https://www.worldcubeassociation.org/results/rankings/222/single?show=by+region 

bonus


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## abunickabhi (Apr 16, 2021)

xyzzy said:


> All in all, single records don't really serve much of a purpose at all.



I agree with this statement completely. Singles are a measure of performance in one stretch, and to judge a better competitor, it is always better to have a statistical measure like average or median score to find the fastest person.


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## WarriorCatCuber (Apr 16, 2021)

As it has been said, singles in general for all events except for the blind ones aren't really representive of anything. I think it's still a cool record to keep anyway just so that you can know how fast someone has _ever _solved a cube.


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## BenChristman1 (Apr 16, 2021)

WarriorCatCuber said:


> As it has been said, singles in general for all events except for the blind ones aren't really representive of anything. I think it's still a cool record to keep anyway just so that you can know how fast someone has _ever _solved a cube.


I definitely agree. I think that we should keep singles, but do something like this:


xyzzy said:


> The semi-nuclear option: continue recognising singles, but make them much less prominent on the WCA website. Currently, the rankings page defaults to showing singles regardless of event, which doesn't exactly make sense.


I also like this option a lot, which puts more emphasis on averages within the cubing community. I think that the general public would always make 3x3 single most important, no matter what, though. If you think about video game speedrunning (which you also posted about here), they don’t take the average of runs, because some runs can take hours and hours to complete.

So, I don’t think that singles should be completely eliminated from the results, rankings, etc, but I think that the default on the WCA website should be averages.

If we really wanted to get the most accurate results, we would do at least ao100, but obviously, that’s not feasible at all in a competition. Even when doing averages of 5, people can still get lucky. So, I think that if the WCA tried to put more emphasis on averages, the general public might start defaulting to talking about average as well. (This is probably really unlikely, since it would be hard to change their mindset, and singles are just way more impressive than averages to non-cubers.)


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## abunickabhi (Jun 23, 2022)

Revisiting the topic, i do think 2x2 single is the hardest to break, as well as it is no component of speedcubing to it other than being able to trace out 4-5 moves.


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## qwr (Jun 23, 2022)

abunickabhi said:


> Revisiting the topic, i do think 2x2 single is the hardest to break, as well as it is no component of speedcubing to it other than being able to trace out 4-5 moves.


WR is probably hard to beat but that is no reason to remove it from comps. NRs for less competitive countries can be exciting and still have lots of progress, if that's what you're looking for. I particularly enjoyed Cubehead's road to 2x2 NR for example.


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## Imsoosm (Jun 23, 2022)

@Timona you better break some NRs at your next comp


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## Timona (Jun 23, 2022)

Imsoosm said:


> @Timona you better break some NRs at your next comp


I might not even be able to go for it. Either I've got a Visa interview around then or I'm already in the UK. But I really want to go. It's 4 days after my bday so for sure my parents would let me go. On top of all that, it's organised by the guy that holds a ton of NRs so he might even break the current ones.


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## Imsoosm (Jun 23, 2022)

Timona said:


> I might not even be able to go for it. Either I've got a Visa interview around then or I'm already in the UK. But I really want to go. It's 4 days after my bday so for sure my parents would let me go. On top of all that, it's organised by the guy that holds a ton of NRs so he might even break the current ones.


Oh yeah the Dada Ayooluwa Samuel guy (lmao his last name is my name)
If you can go, it would be cool to meet up with him and ask him for some tips so you can beat him in the future


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## Timona (Jun 23, 2022)

Imsoosm said:


> Oh yeah the Dada Ayooluwa Samuel guy (lmao his last name is my name)
> If you can go, it would be cool to meet up with him and ask him for some tips so you can beat him in the future


Only one I can currently contest is 4x4, but he probably got better too. And i want to meet him so badly


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## Imsoosm (Jun 23, 2022)

Timona said:


> Only one I can currently contest is 4x4, but he probably got better too. And i want to meet him so badly


Why can't you do 3x3, 5x5, and mega?


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## Timona (Jun 23, 2022)

Imsoosm said:


> Why can't you do 3x3, 5x5, and mega?


3x3 - NR is 10.01, to beat that I need sub-10, and I avg 12 rn
5x5 - I can actually get lucky lol and beat it. But Dada is there.
Megaminx - do you really think I can grind from 1:40 to 1:00 in a month?


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## Imsoosm (Jun 23, 2022)

Timona said:


> 3x3 - NR is 10.01, to beat that I need sub-10, and I avg 12 rn
> 5x5 - I can actually get lucky lol and beat it. But Dada is there.
> Megaminx - do you really think I can grind from 1:40 to 1:00 in a month?


You can still compete in them though to get some official solves, then you might be encouraged to work harder to beat your PR in those events.


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## Timona (Jun 23, 2022)

Imsoosm said:


> You can still compete in them though to get some official solves, then you might be encouraged to work harder to beat your PR in those events.


*If *I can attend the comp.


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## Filipe Teixeira (Jun 23, 2022)

Imsoosm said:


> Oh yeah the Dada Ayooluwa Samuel guy (lmao his last name is my name)


your name is guy?


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## Imsoosm (Jun 23, 2022)

Filipe Teixeira said:


> your name is guy?


no Samuel


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## Timona (Jun 23, 2022)

abunickabhi said:


> Original discussion here: https://forum.worldcubeassociation....les-be-not-counted-for-records-nr-cr-wr/12783
> 
> This is quite an obvious topic and there have been a few discussions in the past over the years, but now that some events have gotten even faster with better hardware, we can try to revisit this topic.
> 
> ...


Staying in topic, in my honest opinion, they shouldn't count. But we've gotten so far in cubing that it would be absurd to just denounce past records. But still, it wouldnt make sense since being able to solve at that skill level still requires some amount of dedication and practice to said event.


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## Klaudiusz Szyprocinski (Jun 23, 2022)

Funny how some of you consider getting rid of 2x2 single rankings but totally forget that we still have Rubik's Clock as official event. 
2x2 single is probably the most scramble dependant event out there, but you still need a fine skill to execute the solution fast and to find the solution as well. I'm pretty sure Zayn could get it on 6-8 mover easily. Also you should take note that 3x3 single may be in similar situation in a few years. Are you going to bring the classic cube into the discussion as well?


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## IsThatA4x4 (Jun 23, 2022)

Imsoosm said:


> no Samuel


Name reveal!
Hello Samuel


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## oneshot (Jun 23, 2022)

abunickabhi said:


> I agree with this statement completely. Singles are a measure of performance in one stretch, and to judge a better competitor, it is always better to have a statistical measure like average or median score to find the fastest person.


I’m not so sure. If we compare it to another sport, like the 100 meters in track and field, it would be strange to make the important record the average of someone’s last five races. The goal of the cube is to take it from scrambled to solved in the shortest time. Just a thought for discussion.


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## xyzzy (Jun 23, 2022)

oneshot said:


> I’m not so sure. If we compare it to another sport, like the 100 meters in track and field, it would be strange to make the important record the average of someone’s last five races. The goal of the cube is to take it from scrambled to solved in the shortest time. Just a thought for discussion.


The difference is that in cubing, the individual results depend on RNG, a factor entirely out of the competitors' control. We're not being given a standard set of scrambles at every competition that we can practise to perfection.

I imagine there are still some variations in 100-metre sprints (like track material? is that standardised? idk) but I don't expect that that makes as much of a difference as scrambles do in cubing.



Klaudiusz Szyprocinski said:


> but you still need a fine skill to execute the solution fast and to find the solution as well.


An interesting sentiment from someone who only a few days ago claimed it didn't need any skill. 



Klaudiusz Szyprocinski said:


> Are you going to bring the classic cube into the discussion as well?


Yes. Or, I would, if I hadn't already…

3×3×3 squarely falls in the category of "shorter events" to me. Anything where the solve is faster than inspection surely should count as "short".


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## Timona (Jun 23, 2022)

xyzzy said:


> 3×3×3 squarely falls in the category of "shorter events" to me.* Anything where the solve is faster than inspection surely should count as "short".*


I really like this take. But in future, when the 4x4 WR becomes sub-15 (because I don't think we've reached the human limit yet, factoring luck too) would 4x4 be considered "shorter events"?


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## qwr (Jun 24, 2022)

xyzzy said:


> I imagine there are still some variations in 100-metre sprints (like track material? is that standardised? idk)


Older records had less strict regulation (a couple of British guys running on a straight dirt path) but nowadays there are much tighter to count as official.





__





Wind assistance - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org





I think the most famous case is FloJo's 10.49 women's WR (set in 1988 and STILL the record) which was pretty significant for being likely wind-assisted.


> It is widely believed that the anemometer was faulty for the race in which Griffith Joyner set this record.[68] A 1995 report commissioned by the IAAF estimated the true wind speed was between +5.0 m/s and +7.0 m/s, rather than the 0.0 recorded.[68] If this time, recorded in the quarter-final of the 1988 U.S. Olympic trials, were excluded, the world record (until the 10.54 recorded by Elaine Thompson-Herah on August 21, 2021) would have been 10.61 s, also by Griffith Joyner, recorded the next day at the same venue in the final.[68][69]



But I'm not a track and field expert so this maybe there are other examples


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