# The Position of your Cube while Scrambling Affecting the Solve Time?



## Rook (Oct 18, 2009)

Hi all,

I couldn't think of a good title for this experiment :\ Hopefully you're not thinking "Which genius wrote this thread?"

Note: If you're colour neutral, this is sort of a pointless to read. I'm going to test this using the Fridrich Method, but it may still work for other methods, depending on if you solve the same face. 

Alright, so the WCA rules state that when scrambling your cube, white should be on U and green on F. I was just thinking: If you happen to do a y2 or some other cube rotation before scrambling, then use the same scramble, then solve the side you normally do, would your times be significantly different?

My hypothesis is yes, it does affect the solve speed. However, I don't think it's always for the worst. I think that in some cases, it may end up making the solve easier.

The scramble I'll use: 
F U2 F R D2 F' U2 F L' U2 R B2 D' B' F R' F2 D2 F2 L' U' B' D' L2 B'

I'll do that scramble with U white and F green. Note that my solves are failures. Don't expect me to have the most efficient cross, an x-cross, etc.

First off, I'll just do a x2 so that white is on D and blue on F.
Cross: F' L F D' R' D' B' D
F2L 1: R U2 R' U L U L'
F2L 2: R U R' D R U' R' D'
F2L 3: U R U' R2 U' R
F2L 4: U' R U' R'
OLL: y2 f (R U R' U') f'
PLL: [Do the G perm however you do it]

I just did the solve on impulse (I didn't follow the above) and ended up getting 46 seconds. Post your times below if you want.

Now I'm going to scramble the cube again, but this time, I'll scramble with blue on U and red on F

I'll re-grip the cube so blue's on F and white on D.
Cross: R2 D R D F D2
F2L 1: U' R U2 R' U R' U2 R L' U' L
F2L 2: U R U' R2 U R
F2L 3: R U2 R' L U' L'
F2L 4: R U R' d R' U2 R
OLL: r U R' U R U' R' U R U2' r'
PLL: [Whichever J perm you do]

Again, I did this on impulse and this time, I ended up getting 43 seconds. My solves times vary a lot (they can vary from 40 to 50 seconds >_<) so my solve times aren't very reliable. I was hoping people would post their times so we could compare if the times are better for the first cube rotation or second.

Conclusion, the second rotation was slightly better.

Hopefully you understood the thread and enjoyed reading. If you want to, you can do what I did above and post your times.

~Rook


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## Johannes91 (Oct 18, 2009)

Rook said:


> Alright, so the WCA rules state that when scrambling your cube, white should be on U and green on F. I was just thinking: If you happen to do a y2 or some other cube rotation before scrambling, then use the same scramble, then solve the side you normally do, would your times be significantly different?
> 
> My hypothesis is yes, it does affect the solve speed. However, I don't think it's always for the worst. I think that in some cases, it may end up making the solve easier.


It should be obvious that on average, all rotations are equal. If not, the scramble generator is doing something wrong.

On single solves there can obviously be differences (imagine a solved cross on one face but not on others), but... so what? If you find a much-used scramble generator that consistenly generates easier U- than D-crosses or something similar, *that* would be interesting.


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## hawkmp4 (Oct 18, 2009)

Yes. On one individual scramble, orientation can make all the difference. But one scramble, with one solve, with (I mean no offense) your admitted inconsistent times, and a three second difference...that's very very far from conclusive.


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## Faz (Oct 18, 2009)

I'm not sure if this is true, but I was told that you are most likely to get a PLL skip if you do cross on R.


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## miniGOINGS (Oct 18, 2009)

fazrulz said:


> I'm not sure if this is true, but I was told that you are most likely to get a PLL skip if you do cross on R.



Any possibility would be a coinky-dink. Not possible. Change, pure chance.


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## Lucas Garron (Oct 18, 2009)

There is no reason not to scramble in the same orientation every time, unless your scrambler is not worthwhile. And I highly suggest white on top, green in front.
(I used to do yellow on top, red in front, but there's no reason not to be consistent with the rest of the world.)


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## ErikJ (Oct 19, 2009)

Lucas Garron said:


> (I used to do yellow on top, red in front, but there's no reason not to be consistent with the rest of the world.)



I still do yellow top and red front because that's how it was always done in the FMC at dan's cubing station.

it doesn't matter.


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## puzzlemaster (Oct 19, 2009)

I can't imagine it really making a difference. I still do yellow top and blue front...just because that's how I would hold the cube for blind memo.


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## mcciff2112 (Oct 19, 2009)

If you're color neutral, it wouldn't make a difference. If not (most cubers in the world), yes, I think it would make a significant difference.


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## amostay2004 (Oct 19, 2009)

I just scramble with whatever orientation I finish my previous solve with (in which case, it is 99.9% of the time yellow on top, with a random front colour)

And scrambles are entirely random so as Johannes stated, the times would just average out and there'll be no way to know whether scrambling in a particular orientation would make a solve easier or harder. 

There will, however, be lack of comparability if you're comparing your solve times with another cuber who scrambled in a different orientation.

So my conclusion is, while practising, I don't care how I hold the cube but if competing with others, there has to be a set orientation.


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## miniGOINGS (Oct 19, 2009)

Lucas Garron said:


> There is no reason not to scramble in the same orientation every time, unless your scrambler is not worthwhile. And I highly suggest white on top, green in front.
> (I used to do yellow on top, red in front, but there's no reason not to be consistent with the rest of the world.)



Same here. I used to scramble with yellow on top and red in front (because that's how I solve it) but now I scramble with white on top and green in front.


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## hawkmp4 (Oct 19, 2009)

mcciff2112 said:


> If you're color neutral, it wouldn't make a difference. If not (most cubers in the world), yes, I think it would make a significant difference.



Why?


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## mcciff2112 (Oct 19, 2009)

hawkmp4 said:


> mcciff2112 said:
> 
> 
> > If you're color neutral, it wouldn't make a difference. If not (most cubers in the world), yes, I think it would make a significant difference.
> ...



Being color neutral, it doesn't matter which color you solve for the cross, so you will always choose the easiest cross. If you always solve white cross, and scramble with white on top, you are obviously going to start with white, meaning your solving the color that was on top during the scrambling. If white was on the bottom while scrambling, the cross solution for white would be different, meaning a completely different solve. This solve may be easier than that of the same scramble with white on top, or it may be harder. The same applies if it is scrambled with white on F, R, L, or B.

What I'm trying to say is, a specific scramble is always the same, so someone who is color neutral will always see the same six cross opportunities. If you're not color neutral, a scramble done from a different orientation, will look different, simply because a different orientation of colors was scrambled. This is really hard to explain.


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## hawkmp4 (Oct 19, 2009)

I can tell you for a fact that the orientation of the cube while scrambling makes no difference, colour neutral or not.


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## Cyrus C. (Oct 19, 2009)

I say this experiment is stupid, first of all you should do at least an avg. of 100 and still the times can be different just because of your skill level. Second of all you didn't take ANY safety measures DON'T FORGET TO WEAR A HELMET!


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## Edward (Oct 19, 2009)

This is why color neutrality rox


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## Ranzha (Oct 19, 2009)

The problem I have with this is when I scramble an LL scramble with, say, green on top.
I'm so used to orange, yellow, and blue on top when doing LL. It just doesn't work otherwise.
It doesn't appear that *scrambling* with a different orientation makes things weird, but *solving* with a different colour can kill you.
I want to be colour-neutral. Meh.


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## mcciff2112 (Oct 19, 2009)

hawkmp4 said:


> I can tell you for a fact that the orientation of the cube while scrambling makes no difference, colour neutral or not.


It's the same thing, but the colors are oriented differently depending on the starting position. To someone who isn't color neutral, it will look like a different scramble. That's all I'm saying. I don't know what you don't understand in that.


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## Ranzha (Oct 19, 2009)

mcciff2112 said:


> hawkmp4 said:
> 
> 
> > I can tell you for a fact that the orientation of the cube while scrambling makes no difference, colour neutral or not.
> ...



Orientation while scrambling results in a differently scrambled cube in such that the faces have different colours on them, though the scramble is the same relative to the x-y-z position of the pieces, as in memoing BLD.
If two people scramble the same thing in different orientations, each scrambling in the orientation which they solve, the piece in UF in cube 1 is relative to the UF piece in cube 2.

Solving, however, if you're not colour-neutral, could make the time differ dramatically or not dramatically, for the probability of the time it takes for recognition of a case, execution, and method varies from person to person.
This way, this experiment is pointless. If while solving you get, say, an OLL skip, while in a different orientation, you get a PLL skip, it really matters on how the person solves.


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## Johannes91 (Oct 19, 2009)

mcciff2112 said:


> hawkmp4 said:
> 
> 
> > I can tell you for a fact that the orientation of the cube while scrambling makes no difference, colour neutral or not.
> ...


You two are just talking about different things.

hackmp4: it makes no difference _in the long run_, which is correct
mcciff2112: it can make a difference _in an individual scramble_, which is correct, too

The OP seems to be about the first sentence and you were a bit unclear your posts; I thought you were talking about a long run difference at first, too.


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## rubiknewbie (Oct 19, 2009)

Experiment no more. Yellow on top, white at bottom is best .


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## hawkmp4 (Oct 20, 2009)

Johannes91 said:


> mcciff2112 said:
> 
> 
> > hawkmp4 said:
> ...


Well, yeah, of course it makes a difference on an individual solve. If you do sune to scramble a cube with white on top and the person can only solve with white on bottom, it will take them much longer to solve than someone who's colour neutral. I thought that that was such a trivial point it didn't need to be discussed.



rubiknewbie said:


> Experiment no more. Yellow on top, white at bottom is best .


Why?


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## waffle=ijm (Oct 20, 2009)

rubiknewbie said:


> Experiment no more. Yellow on top, white at bottom is best .



WOW...you're cool.

Anywho
Opposite color neutral...Erik Akkersdijk...WR single...there's a bunch more

Faz and Rowe Hessler...both real fast...both color neutral...and more color neutral people too

And you can't forget about the Japanese who use the Japanese Color Scheme.

I guess that's why you're rubik*newbie*.

kthnxbai


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## Forte (Oct 20, 2009)

waffle=ijm said:


> *And you can't forget about the Japanese who use the Japanese Color Scheme.*



Thank you for not forgetting


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