# Sub 20 with LBL method?



## chaotarroo (Mar 16, 2008)

Hi there.

Can anyone sub20 with LBL method using 3look ll?
And is its possible to sub 13 for F2L using the LBL method?

:confused:


----------



## Hadley4000 (Mar 16, 2008)

chaotarroo said:


> Hi there.
> 
> Can anyone sub20 with LBL method using 3look ll?
> And is its possible to sub 13 for F2L using the LBL method?
> ...



Sub-20 is possible using LBL. I have seen it done(On YouTube). But it's not an easy thing to do using layer-by-layer.

Sub-13 using LBL? That is HIGHLY unlikely.


----------



## Pedro (Mar 16, 2008)

Hadley4000 said:


> chaotarroo said:
> 
> 
> > Hi there.
> ...



he meant sub-13 for F2L

if sub-20 for whole cube is possible, I guess the F2L time should be 13


----------



## Lotsofsloths (Mar 16, 2008)

Yea, definately.


----------



## Hadley4000 (Mar 17, 2008)

Pedro said:


> Hadley4000 said:
> 
> 
> > chaotarroo said:
> ...




My bad. Yes, that is possible.

I thought he meant sub 13 using LBL. THAT would not be easy.


----------



## alexc (Mar 17, 2008)

Hadley4000 said:


> Pedro said:
> 
> 
> > Hadley4000 said:
> ...



Yeah, it would be REALLY hard, probably not physically possible unless you never stop turning at... 12 moves a second! HA! The move count is just way to high to achieve those speeds!


----------



## mrCage (Mar 17, 2008)

Hi 

Assuming a turn speed 05 3.5/sec is feasible with minimum delay between steps then ANY method taking less than 70 turns should be possible in <20 secs average - not including getting many lucky solves, which may lower it even further.

I have ONCE been sub 20 avg with LBL 4-look LL 

- Per


----------



## Kenneth (Mar 17, 2008)

Our (not yet but soon) oldest cuber Rune Wesström is using a LBL he made up in the early 80's that averages about the same number of turns as Fridrich.

First layer, CLL, LL-edges, end in ML (yep, not the normal order for layers but still a LBL =)


----------



## chaotarroo (Mar 17, 2008)

Kenneth said:


> Our (not yet but soon) oldest cuber Rune Wesström is using a LBL he made up in the early 80's that averages about the same number of turns as Fridrich.
> 
> First layer, CLL, LL-edges, end in ML (yep, not the normal order for layers but still a LBL =)



Can you explain more about this method?
Cause I am doing like at least 90~100moves for each solve using LBL.
It might even be as bad as 110~120 at times.
And have been doing average like 23~24 for quite some time.
My LL is averaged at 8second.
I know all cross OLL and all PLLs now btw.


----------



## Kenneth (Mar 17, 2008)

It's not easy to learn because of CLL.

But if you like to lower your move count, then switch to keyhole F2L instead of using an alg to put in all edges, it saves about 4 turns/edge.

With keyhole it is about 40 turns for F2L, 2-step OLL is around 20, PLL is 12 something (it depends a little on the algs you use).

40 + 20 + 12 = 72!


----------



## fanwuq (Mar 21, 2008)

It shouldn't be hard. My friend done a few sub-20 LBL solves on ryanheise sim, because he is a fast typer.


----------



## Lt-UnReaL (Mar 22, 2008)

chaotarroo said:


> Kenneth said:
> 
> 
> > Our (not yet but soon) oldest cuber Rune Wesström is using a LBL he made up in the early 80's that averages about the same number of turns as Fridrich.
> ...


Are you sure you do that many moves? It should really only be around like 75-85 :/


----------



## Rune (Mar 22, 2008)

I do:
FL 16 m
CLL 12 m
3 swaps á 8 m = 24 m
rotation in the middle slice 4 m
maybe 2 inline moves
All in average and STM = 58 moves


----------



## chaotarroo (Mar 23, 2008)

Lt-UnReaL said:


> chaotarroo said:
> 
> 
> > Kenneth said:
> ...



Only provided if you know all OLL and PLLs?

My amount of moves for the F2L alone is already 65~75.
Unless my LBL method is different from the majority.
You need at least 8moves to fill in corners when the are stucked at the correct place but not permutated correctly.
Same goes to when they are on the top face but the colour you have solved cross for is flipped up.
And when the cubes are flipped wrongly in the second layer, you need at least 15moves to correct it.


----------



## Lt-UnReaL (Mar 23, 2008)

Well your cross should be about 7 moves, corners take around 20 moves, and edges take around 30 moves. 57 moves for F2L. Orient yellow edges takes 6 moves, doing a cross OLL takes around 9 moves, and PLL takes about 12 moves. So your solves should be ABOUT 84 moves...


----------



## Dirk BerGuRK (Mar 23, 2008)

Kenneth said:


> Our (not yet but soon) oldest cuber Rune Wesström is using a LBL he made up in the early 80's that averages about the same number of turns as Fridrich.
> 
> First layer, CLL, LL-edges, end in ML (yep, not the normal order for layers but still a LBL =)



Hey Kenneth,

Isn't that Waterman's method?

http://rubikscube.info/waterman/


----------



## chaotarroo (Mar 23, 2008)

Lt-UnReaL said:


> Well your cross should be about 7 moves, corners take around 20 moves, and edges take around 30 moves. 57 moves for F2L. Orient yellow edges takes 6 moves, doing a cross OLL takes around 9 moves, and PLL takes about 12 moves. So your solves should be ABOUT 84 moves...



Orientating corners only take 6 moves when you get a straight line on top.
If you get a small L or a dot. You need 10 and 15 moves respectively.

Also, 20moves and 30moves for corners and edges is only during optimal cases. You probably need more than that most of the time.


----------



## Swordsman Kirby (Mar 24, 2008)

Hrm... I've done sub-20 before with LBL: then again I know a 2LLL and turn fast.


----------



## chaotarroo (Mar 24, 2008)

Swordsman Kirby said:


> Hrm... I've done sub-20 before with LBL: then again I know a 2LLL and turn fast.



I can probably do one sub20 solve out of 8 or something.
Thing is, doing sub 20 consistently is just not easy.


----------



## FU (Mar 24, 2008)

chaotarroo said:


> Lt-UnReaL said:
> 
> 
> > Well your cross should be about 7 moves, corners take around 20 moves, and edges take around 30 moves. 57 moves for F2L. Orient yellow edges takes 6 moves, doing a cross OLL takes around 9 moves, and PLL takes about 12 moves. So your solves should be ABOUT 84 moves...
> ...


Wrong.

Small L -> F U R U' R' F' = 6 moves
Dot -> F R U R' U' F' f R U R' U' f' = 12 moves (it'd be 11 if you replaced the F' f in the middle with S)


----------



## AvGalen (Mar 25, 2008)

Just tried:
Cross, Corner1, Corner2, Corner3, Corner4, Edge1, Edge2, Edge3, Edge4, Edge OLL, Corner OLL, PLL (If you know it), Corner PLL, Edge PLL (for a beginner 4 look last layer)
5, (4, 3, 4, 3), (8, 8, 8, 7), (6, 7), 17 or 13 + 10
6, (4, 3, 3, 6), (7, 8, 8, 8,), (12, 8), 12 or 9 + 10
5, (3, 4, 3, 7), (8, 8, 15, 8), (6, 11), 12 or 9 + 10
5, (0, 4, 6, 3), (8, 8, 8, 8), (12, 8), 13 or 13 + 0
5, (3, 3, 5, 7), (8, 8, 7, 8), (6, 9), ?? or 9 + 9

Edges take a lot of moves, but by using keyhole I get:
7, (4, 5, 6), (4, 4, 4, 5), (7), (0 + 9), 10 or 0 + 10
7, (4, 3, 4), (3, 4, 3, 4), (7), (6 + 7), ?? or 9 + 10
7, (3, 3, 4), (3, 4, 4, 4), (8), (6 + 8), 10 or 9 + 1
6, (3, 3, 3), (4, 4, 4, 8), (7), (6 + 9), 15 or 13 + 12
6, (4, 3, 4), (3, 4, 3, 4), (8), (6 + 8), 10 or 0 + 10

CFOP:
8, (7, 7, 7, 10), (0 + 9), ?? or 9 + 9
7, (3, 8, 6, 7), (6 + 8), ?? or 9 + 12
6, (7, 3, 6, 7), (6 + 8), 11 or 9 + 10
9, (5, 7, 7, 3), (6 + 8), 16 or 13 + 12
4, (6, 8, 6, 7), (6 + 7) 13 or 0 + 13

I didn't use any shortcuts and didn't "notice" cancellations. Just the solves as I would have performed them. If I would have used (R2 U2) *3 shortcuts I could have saved some moves for the beginner solution

?? means I don't know that PLL


----------



## pcwiz (Mar 26, 2008)

*Yes it's possible*

This guy can do sub 20 LBL F2L average..... 



He even got a 9 second one!!! LBL F2L!!!!!

His LBL average is like 28 seconds!!!!


----------



## Lucas Garron (Mar 26, 2008)

LBL (cross + 4 corners + 4 edge + EOLL + OCLL + PLL):

18.48, (17.36), 21.60, (POP), 19.33, 26.03, 29.88, 24.52, 23.72, 21.43, 18.30, 25.91 > 22.92 avg

I reckon I can do it. The first five are 19.80 avg. In the middle, I got a lot of annoying flipped edges...

Not even rolling..


----------



## Lucas Garron (Mar 26, 2008)

Alright:
18.54, (22.93), (16.92 PLL skip), 20.98, 19.19, 19.59, 20.40, 19.58, 19.63, 18.28, 19.54, 21.43 > 19.72 avg
And after 43 solves of that Nakajima-speed twisting (lookahead is insane for LBL), my fingertips are still cold...
(SD: 0.99)

EDIT: 17.87, 18.10, (22.30), 17.42, (15.89) > 17.80 avg5
I don't think the 15.89 was actually lucky...

Also: (22.30), 17.42, 15.89, 20.96, 21.66, 20.99, 18.75, 21.53, 21.70, 18.87, 17.25, (15.17) > 19.50 avg
(No so sure about the 15; it wasn't a PLL skip.)


----------



## chaotarroo (Mar 26, 2008)

Average: 23.07

Fastest Time: 19.53
Slowest Time: 24.89
Standard Deviation: 00.90

Individual Times:
1) (24.89) D B2 D2 F2 D2 B U L2 F2 U B2 D' L R U2 F' B' L2 R' B U' R2 B L' B
2) (19.53) R' U L U' F2 B U2 L2 R2 D2 B R' B' L2 D2 U2 L2 D L' F R2 U2 B2 L B
3) 23.83 R' U2 F' R' B2 F' R F R' F L' R2 B U F2 U2 D' L' R2 F D2 F' L2 D B2
4) 24.00 B U' L2 B2 U F' R2 U' F2 D' L B D U' L' B' U' L U R U' F U R L
5) 23.11 R' U' F' B U2 R B L2 U' B2 R' U B2 R2 U' D2 B' L2 F L' R B D' L U'
6) 24.14 D' L2 F B U' R' B D2 F2 U' D L R2 D2 U2 R2 L' F2 B' L F B U2 B' L
7) 21.45 D2 L2 F R2 F' D' B' F' D2 F' R D2 B F2 R' F' R' D R' L' F' B' R' F2 B
8) 23.47 L2 D' F2 R U F2 B2 U D L2 B U' D2 L' F B' R' F B2 L F L2 B2 R2 B2
9) 22.96 U' R2 L F2 D L2 F' R' B' F D2 B2 D L B L2 R' B' L' D2 R F' L' F' U
10) 22.20 F2 B2 R' D F R' L U' F2 U' L' R D L U' F' D2 B L' D' U R U2 B R2
11) 22.06 F' R2 B2 R' L' U2 B' L' U D F2 R B2 U2 B F2 D2 R U' D' R2 B' D2 B F'
12) 23.51 F2 L2 U' L R' F2 L F D U2 L2 D2 R' F R2 D L R F U' R' B2 D R U2

My latest LBL average.
Still trying. 

Another question. Do you guys rotate alot when slotting in the corners and edges? Cause i do.


----------



## Lucas Garron (Mar 26, 2008)

chaotarroo: When you post times from an average, it's nice if you post the average with it. ;-)

Anyhow, this is a vid of my "speed LBL." Now Harris or Yu Nakajima needs to make a faster one.


----------



## newbiecubie (Mar 28, 2008)

My best is (look in my sig) I am starting to meorize PLL. I have done the common simple ones which pop up commonly.


----------



## fanwuq (Mar 29, 2008)

erik made a sub 20 lbl video average


----------



## pcwiz (Mar 29, 2008)

Yes, here it is:





*More about this video*
Me solving the cube in 19.74 average (16.33, 22.63, 18.89, 20.67, 20.58, 20.20, (23.70), 19.84, 17.58, (15.91), 18.52, 22.13)
Using the main beginners method (LBL for F2L and 4 Look Last Layer):
1. Cross
2. Corners first layer
3. Edges 2nd layer
4. Orient edges last layer
5. Orient corners last layer
6. Permute corners last layer
7. Permute edges last layer (


----------



## chaotarroo (Apr 7, 2008)

New average with LBL 2~4 look LL! 21.24s

Cubes Solved: 12 
Total Pops: 0 
Average: 21.24

Fastest Time: 18.66
Slowest Time: 24.71
Standard Deviation: 01.93 

Individual Times:
1) 22.77 U' L2 D' B' U' B2 U2 B2 D' U' L2 D U2 L D' U' F' B' U R2 U2 D2 B F' U2
2) 20.68 D' F' U B R D2 U' B L U2 L B L F L2 F R B2 R B R' B' R' B' U2
3) 20.39 U R2 B D' U L2 F U' L' D L B2 F2 R F R' B L' U F R2 L2 D' R L'
4) 20.58 U D' L2 R F' D2 U' R' L' F' D2 B F2 U2 R2 U' B2 D R2 L D2 F R' F' R
5) 18.97 U2 F2 U2 R' D' R2 B L2 R' U2 D2 R B' D' B' D' F2 U2 R L F2 L' D2 L D
6) 21.30 B R' B' F D L B2 D' L' R F U D' F2 U2 B2 U B2 F2 D B U2 L2 D2 R
7) 18.66 R2 D U' R2 U' L B F2 R2 F B2 U B2 D' F L D R B2 D' L B2 D' U2 L
8) 20.87 U R D2 B2 D B' F R' L' B R2 U' D2 L' B2 R' D' L' U' R B2 L' D U2 B'
9) 24.63 B' F' R D2 U' L B2 U' D2 R2 B' D U' R2 U' B' R2 F2 D B2 U2 R' B2 R' L2
10) 20.00 R B2 U2 L F2 L' D F' L B U D L' D B' D' L' U B2 R2 U' R2 B2 U L2
11) 24.71 B2 D' F2 L U L' F' D2 U2 B F R D F' D B2 R2 U2 B R2 U L2 F2 B' D'
12) 21.36 D U R2 F U' B2 F' R D' F L' F2 L F2 R2 D R2 D' L U B' F' R' F D2


----------

