# Benelux Open 2009



## Ton (Dec 8, 2008)

Saturday February 21 and Sunday February 22, 2009

The championship will be held in the youth hostel:
Zonnewende
Esscheweg 78
5271 NA Sint Michielsgestel
The Netherlands

All competitors must be registered before February 15, 2009 AND before we reach 60 competitors.

 registration:


Events:
Saturday events:
2x2x2 Cube
Rubik's Cube one-handed
Rubik's Magic
Rubik's Master Magic
Rubik's Clock
Square-1
Megaminx
Pyraminx
Rubik's Cube Multiple Blindfolded
Rubik's Cube Fewest Moves
6x6x6 Cube (unofficial)
7x7x7 Cube (unofficial)

Sunday events:
Rubik's Cube
4x4x4 Cube
5x5x5 Cube
Rubik's Cube blindfolded
4x4x4 Cube blindfolded
5x5x5 Cube blindfolded

Ton


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## Erik (Dec 8, 2008)

I will SO be there!


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## Ton (Dec 8, 2008)

Good, I expect around 50


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## jazzthief81 (Dec 8, 2008)

This tournament (and its venue) is becoming a classic. Of course I'll be there!


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## Ton (Dec 8, 2008)

The people from the Venue are very kind and not commercial, last year they forgot to charge the dinner and lunch for the guests, I called them to ask them to correct the bill. They told me it is oke ... about 400 Euro!!! Which I now use to pay the cost for the compitions we sponsor like the Dutch Open.


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## KConny (Dec 8, 2008)

Me and Gunnar have been planning on going ever since last year. But it depends if I can get away from school. I hope I can but I don't think I will be able to.


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## CharlieCooper (Dec 8, 2008)

i will be going


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## Sebastien (Dec 8, 2008)

i will definatly be there! I already loved the Dutch Masters because of that great venue


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## tim (Dec 8, 2008)

Yeah, awesome venue. I hope it's not too cold for another bycicle tour .


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## Rama (Dec 8, 2008)

Hold on! I'm comin'.


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## TMOY (Dec 8, 2008)

I will be coming too. And yes Zonnewende is becoming a classic venue for good reasons


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## martijn_cube (Dec 8, 2008)

I think i will be there too.


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## Jude (Dec 9, 2008)

Wow, I'll be in Germany on this date, in Bochum (which is like an hour and a half drive away according to google maps) I wonder if I'll somehow be able to make it. That would be absolutely awesome if I could  Anyone know of trains etc between the 2? (Bochum and Sint Michielsgestel)


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## Ton (Dec 9, 2008)

Chukk said:


> Wow, I'll be in Germany on this date, in Bochum (which is like an hour and a half drive away according to google maps) I wonder if I'll somehow be able to make it. That would be absolutely awesome if I could  Anyone know of trains etc between the 2? (Bochum and Sint Michielsgestel)



Well there is connection via Dortmund and s'Hertogennbosch which is 3:30 to 4:00 Hours by train and cost 50 Euro (early or late train)


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## TobiasDaneels (Dec 9, 2008)

I'm coming as well.
See you then.


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## guusrs (Dec 9, 2008)

Rama said:


> Hold on! I'm comin'.



Rama, I definitely prefer this version.
So Yes, I'm coming too!
Gus


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## Stefan (Dec 9, 2008)

guusrs said:


> Rama, I definitely prefer this version.


Obvious lip-synching is unbelievably pathetic.


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## Erik (Dec 9, 2008)

Guurs, I sadly have to disagree with you. Rama's version is way better not to mention the classic version with Sam & Dave: http://youtube.com/watch?v=fN4DHY_9gOs


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## Jude (Dec 9, 2008)

Ton said:


> Chukk said:
> 
> 
> > Wow, I'll be in Germany on this date, in Bochum (which is like an hour and a half drive away according to google maps) I wonder if I'll somehow be able to make it. That would be absolutely awesome if I could  Anyone know of trains etc between the 2? (Bochum and Sint Michielsgestel)
> ...



Turns out the rest of my class is actually leaving on Saturday 21st, but I asked my teacher if I could just stay on and make my own way back on sunday and she said sure, but I'd have to ring and defer my flight. However, not sure how much I'd want to spend on train journeys. Also, if the train journey is 4 hours I'd have to get up pretty damn early, unless I left on the friday night but I'm not sure I could do that... Meh, would be awesome to go but I'm not gonna get my hopes up.


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## coolmission (Dec 10, 2008)

@Chukk

there might actually a way. If you can somehow get to Aachen, you can drive up with me (need to make sure my car still work until then). I'll let you know

EDIT: I just realized that I have exams in february around that time. Silly me. Well, I'll keep you updated if I can still go.


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## CharlieCooper (Dec 10, 2008)

Chukk said:


> Ton said:
> 
> 
> > Chukk said:
> ...



if you use the deutsche bahn website now you might be able to book tickets in advance that are cheaper. i got a return to rotterdam from hannover for like 50 euros which is pretty good i suppose. also you could go on friday night... because i guess a lot of people will be staying on friday night at the venue. at least we did last time!


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## Jude (Dec 11, 2008)

coolmission said:


> @Chukk
> 
> there might actually a way. If you can somehow get to Aachen, you can drive up with me (need to make sure my car still work until then). I'll let you know
> 
> EDIT: I just realized that I have exams in february around that time. Silly me. Well, I'll keep you updated if I can still go.




D'oh, silly exams  Thanks for the offer anyway though.

CharlieCooper, thanks for the info but I think it's unrealistic that I'll be able to come. Unless I suddenly decide I'm willing to fish up about £100 then I don't think I want to :S


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## CharlieCooper (Dec 11, 2008)

oh also given that the pound and euro is really crap at the moment.... maybe not  

p.s. you can just call me charlie


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## Sebastien (Dec 11, 2008)

@coolmission:

you're from Aachen? Who are you?


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## d4m4s74 (Dec 17, 2008)

I'll be there
but I don't know if I will compete, is it worth it at 42 average for 3x3?


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## TMOY (Dec 17, 2008)

It's always worth it if you want to have fun. With a 42 seconds average you probably won't even finish last.


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## Ton (Dec 17, 2008)

d4m4s74 said:


> I'll be there
> but I don't know if I will compete, is it worth it at 42 average for 3x3?



well the goal is to beat your own record....so try to beat your PR


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## d4m4s74 (Dec 17, 2008)

Okay, I entered on 2x2, 3x3 and 4x4 (my 5x5 solves don't fit in the time limit yet)
now it's time to practice


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## coolmission (Dec 19, 2008)

Sébastien_Auroux said:


> @coolmission:
> 
> you're from Aachen? Who are you?



A student at the RWTH . I guess I'll see you in a month at the Aachen Open


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## Stefan (Feb 10, 2009)

Is there a non-smoker driving to the Benelux Open by car through Frankfurt or nearby and could take me along? Otherwise I'll take the train but both price and schedule aren't so nice.


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## d4m4s74 (Feb 10, 2009)

the thread got bumped for rides anyway
so can anyone give me a ride from Den Bosch train station?

it doesn't matter if you smoke or you don't, as long as you don't have a problem with the smell of someone who recently smoked (I promise I won't smoke in the car if someone doesn't want me to)


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## Ton (Feb 11, 2009)

We have to finish scheduling and the number of guest staying in the Hostel

Please register before sunday , on monday I must reserve the places 

Thanks
Ton


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## d4m4s74 (Feb 11, 2009)

I've registered

BTW, Ton, Do I have to pay for the hostel and competition on location or is there a bank number I don't know about?


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## Ton (Feb 11, 2009)

d4m4s74 said:


> I've registered
> 
> BTW, Ton, Do I have to pay for the hostel and competition on location or is there a bank number I don't know about?



Pay on location
The price depend on the number of people , currently it will be about 72 Euro, bedlinen not included is 5 Euro

If more will come it will be cheaper

63,20 is for the hostel , 5 Euro for food/drinks and rest 3,80 to pay for competition material p/p


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## d4m4s74 (Feb 17, 2009)

It's getting closer and closer
everyone competing good luck.
I hope I have a chance (at not being last)

also, I already asked but I can always try again, can anyone get me a ride from the nearest train station?
(Amsterdam, Eindhoven or Den Bosch, your choice)


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## AvGalen (Feb 17, 2009)

Friday-evening I am driving from Hoofddorp to the competition area

Sunday-evening I will be driving from the competition area to my place (near Rotterdam Alexander).

Anyone who wants to drive with me should send me a PM. If you want to you can stay at my place on sunday-night


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## Stefan (Feb 18, 2009)

I intend to take some puzzles with me to sell at the Benelux Open, including some older Rubik's DIY kits and some other puzzles. If you're interested, have a look here:

http://www.speedsolving.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9699


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## d4m4s74 (Feb 20, 2009)

d4m4s74 reporting from the Benelux Open

I've noticed 3 things:
1: Erik can't drive backwards
2: alcohol and cubes are a better combo then one might think
3: I suck at bigcubes


till now it's great, so, yeah, wish us all luck tomorrow when the competition really starts


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## tim (Feb 20, 2009)

d4m4s74 said:


> d4m4s74 reporting from the Benelux Open
> 
> I've noticed 3 things:
> 1: Erik can't drive backwards
> ...



Good luck. Have a lot of fun at this awesome venue!

And greetings to all cubers .


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## guusrs (Feb 21, 2009)

Just back from Benelux open 1st day.
Good accommodation, well organized. 
I only competed FMC. My result was a disappointing 35 moves. 
Results were suprising:
1. Jacco Krijnen: 30 moves
2. Stefan Pochmann & Jimmy Coll: 32 moves
4. Ron van Bruchem and me: 35 moves
etc.

Scramble was: U F2 U F2 R2 B2 U' R B' L B' U2 F' L B R D2 F

Afters the competition I spent 1 hour extra to find a better result. 
I did! Higlight next line to show this solution:
R F' D F D2 R' U2 F2 L' F' D' F D2 F' R' D' R2 F U2 L' U' L U' R' F B' (26)

Gus


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## jazzthief81 (Feb 21, 2009)

Hi Guus,

Thanks for dropping me off at the station. I got back home safely.

Good luck to everyone competing on Sunday.

Lars


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## trying-to-speedcube... (Feb 22, 2009)

Congratulations to Erik on his new world record 3x3 Average! 

In the second round he obtained an average of 11.11 seconds!


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## jazzthief81 (Feb 22, 2009)

Gefeliciteerd, Erik! Je bent mijn held man!


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## guusrs (Feb 22, 2009)

Heey Erik,
Congratz!
Onmeuuunig goe mann!
Gus


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## Pietersmieters (Feb 22, 2009)

Yeah nederlands! eindelijk.. Gefeliciteerd Erik!


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## tim (Feb 22, 2009)

Kai tried 10 cubes blindfolded?


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## Rama (Feb 22, 2009)

Friday: I locked my front door and put my keys in my pocket and when I almost turned around I realized that I forgot my puzzles... but out of pure laziness I just went to the car.

Saturday: I overslept till 11:30 (my mom woke me up for lunch). 

Sunday: After borrowing everyone's cubes I realized when I got home my cube still rocks. 

Congratulations to Erik! Madame Jeanette FTW!

Ps. I wanna thank Stefan Pochmann for selling me some of his DIY's and I hope that someday, I can do you the favor back and give you a flying pony.


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## Erik (Feb 22, 2009)

Lovely lovely competition!

Kai and Janine are staying here still, they are sleeping now, I should go too soon.
In short, the 3x3 WR:
9: easily forced OLL skip (normal J)
10: good, held back a bit on the PLL (cool J)
12: crappy, I think I did 5 pairs here (misslotted) (dunno the perm)
12+2: more crappy, edge flipped on F2L so again 5 pairs (A perm I think)
10: good, don't know the perm anymore

yay

Weirdest thing that happened the competition was...
1:30 in the morning.. it's saturday night.
Suddenly 5 quite tipsy/drunken girls come in. They see cubes, we all chat and stuff. We end up singing: 'we can do the cube, can you do the cube?' while playing revolution in the dark. After that we (Dix, Rama, AvG and me) hang around at their room and then went to bed at like 4... 
I guess 4 hours of sleep is good for WR's?


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## Escher (Feb 22, 2009)

lol, i very much like how you can set a WR record average even while messing up your f2l twice...


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## Lucas Garron (Feb 22, 2009)

Erik said:


> In short, the 3x3 WR:
> 9: easily forced OLL skip (normal J)
> 10: good, held back a bit on the PLL (cool J)
> 12: crappy, I think I did 5 pairs here (misslotted) (dunno the perm)
> ...


We can has video?

I wanna reconstruct!
(But only if you have all 5 recorded. And people better not be missing any of Erik's solves.)


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## Erik (Feb 23, 2009)

I'm 100% not all solves are videotaped. It'll be lucky if there are only 2 solves cought on video only :S


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## KJiptner (Feb 23, 2009)

tim said:


> Kai tried 10 cubes blindfolded?



Yes... 2 flipped edges, 2 twisted corners and the other 3 didn't have much more than a 3 cycle of something wrong. I don't really remember it, though. I felt pretty secure about the attempt, memo went pretty fluid and I recalled everything perfectly during execution. Probably stupid mistakes (as always). Too bad, this way nobody cares about the world class time . The bigcubes BLD wasn't much nicer. 2nd 4x4 was only 2 centers away (but slow), the other attempts pretty much sucked. All speed events went awesome for me. I couldn't do much better.


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## mande (Feb 23, 2009)

KJiptner said:


> Yes... 2 flipped edges, 2 twisted corners and the other 3 didn't have much more than a 3 cycle of something wrong. I don't really remember it, though. I felt pretty secure about the attempt, memo went pretty fluid and I recalled everything perfectly during execution. Probably stupid mistakes (as always). Too bad, this way nobody cares about the world class time . The bigcubes BLD wasn't much nicer. 2nd 4x4 was only 2 centers away (but slow), the other attempts pretty much sucked. All speed events went awesome for me. I couldn't do much better.



You had a 376 moves solution for the FMC :confused::confused::confused:


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## KJiptner (Feb 23, 2009)

Well, I couldn't find a good insertion for a nice LL.


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## Stefan (Feb 23, 2009)

Erik said:


> I guess 4 hours of sleep is good for WR's?


Hmm, didn't Anssi say ... (search) ... yes he did:
http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/speedsolvingrubikscube/message/27652


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## tim (Feb 23, 2009)

KJiptner said:


> Too bad, this way nobody cares about the world class time .



I do . Nice job!


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## AvGalen (Feb 23, 2009)

tim said:


> KJiptner said:
> 
> 
> > Too bad, this way nobody cares about the world class time .
> ...


I do as well, but getting some more successes next time will get you much more caring. You were lucky I did the correct 3-cycle of edges on 3 wrong edges, otherwise I would have been the new WR-holder . (now I got 1/2 in 17 minutes, 0 points, but still 3rd place behind Stefan's 0 points)

And Anssi was 2/3 right Stefan.
1. Nervous (wrong)
2. Tired (correct, even though I trained Erik in the art of planning to go to bed at 01:00, but actually going to bed at ...... well >>> 01:00)
3. Hungry (correct, he always is)

I DNF'ed FMC again. I found a nice start, that gave a 20 move F2L + LL-edges solved. But I got unlucky again (I have had a 20 move F2L + LL-edges solved with 2 bad corners) and had 4 bad corners. Someday I will get that WR.

I will post that 20 move solution later tonight. If anyone knows any short algs that permute 4 corners (without changing the rest of the cube) please let me know. Doing 2 corner-3-cycle-insertions within the time-limit isn't something I can do normally


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## tim (Feb 23, 2009)

AvGalen said:


> tim said:
> 
> 
> > KJiptner said:
> ...



Dennis' next competition is this weekend, so there it goes the chance of a world record for free .


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## Stefan (Feb 23, 2009)

Darn, only now do I see we actually do have a new separate multiblind category in the WCA results now. Why didn't anybody tell me before I decided to make a mistake?


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## AvGalen (Feb 23, 2009)

StefanPochmann said:


> Darn, only now do I see we actually do have a new separate multiblind category in the WCA results now. Why didn't anybody tell me before I decided to make a mistake?


Because we assumed you would know about the WCA rules AND had some insider-information about the WCA-result database AND because we don't want you to be nr. 1


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## Stefan (Feb 23, 2009)

Ok... well at least I have its German record. Yay.


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## TMOY (Feb 23, 2009)

KJiptner said:


> Well, I couldn't find a good insertion for a nice LL.



First Gagou's 174-move solution at Swiss Open (which unfortunately was DNF because of a writing mistake), then your 376-move solution... We should definitely add MMC (Most Moves Contest) to the list of WCA official events 
And what's the problem with getting only 4 hours of sleep ?


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## Gunnar (Feb 23, 2009)

AvGalen said:


> I will post that 20 move solution later tonight. If anyone knows any short algs that permute 4 corners (without changing the rest of the cube) please let me know. Doing 2 corner-3-cycle-insertions within the time-limit isn't something I can do normally



Hi!

I look forward to see your 20-move start, since I've become quite interested in fewest moves. I'm also trying to find some good ways to end the solves to be able to get sub-30 solutions. A few algs for permuting corners:

2+2:
L'R'U2LR FBU2F'B' U2 [11]
(RUR'U')*3 [12]
(FR'F'R)*3 [12]
and all their variations (U, U', U2 etc)
U F2 U R2 U' F2 L2 D B2 D' L2 U' [12]

5-cycle:
R2B2L2F2 U F2L2B2R2 D [10]
(R2UR2U')*3 [12]



Also, I remember that in Spain you showed my a way to do edge 3-cycles in 8 moves but I don't remember and can't figure out how. Can you tell again?


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## gogozerg (Feb 23, 2009)

mande said:


> You had a 376 moves solution for the FMC :confused::confused::confused:



Is this result/behaviour supposed to be cool or something?

Shame on him.


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## KJiptner (Feb 23, 2009)

yes, I agree entirely.


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## tim (Feb 23, 2009)

Gunnar said:


> Also, I remember that in Spain you showed my a way to do edge 3-cycles in 8 moves but I don't remember and can't figure out how. Can you tell again?



r R' U2 r' R U2 ? I only know 8 move 3-cycles in STM.


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## AvGalen (Feb 23, 2009)

Gunnar said:


> AvGalen said:
> 
> 
> > I will post that 20 move solution later tonight. If anyone knows any short algs that permute 4 corners (without changing the rest of the cube) please let me know. Doing 2 corner-3-cycle-insertions within the time-limit isn't something I can do normally
> ...


 
Normal scramble: U F2 U F2 R2 B2 U' R B' L B' U2 F' L B R D2 F
Inverse scramble: F' D2 R' B' L' F U2 B L' B R' U B2 R2 F2 U' F2 U'
(Premove D)
2x2x2: U' (R2) B D
2x2x3: B R2 U' B2 R'
F2l + edges last layer: U' B2 R B R2 U R U' F R' F'
Undo Premove: D

You have got to wonder how that looks on the normal scramble (especially if I could have inserted those 4 corners)
D' F R F' U R' U' R2 B' R' B2 U R B2 U R2 B' D' B' R2 U

And that 8 move edge-3-cycle is (a variation of) U2 B2 D2 R' B2 U2 F2 L'
or B2 D2 R' B2 U2 F2 L' U2 or D2 R' B2 U2 F2 L' U2 B2 (same alg, just move the first move to the end so you have more chance on a nice cancellation)


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## guusrs (Feb 23, 2009)

AvGalen said:


> Gunnar said:
> 
> 
> > AvGalen said:
> ...



Hi Arnaud, 

Nice skeleton, I think it can only be solved with a double corner insertion, takes 15 - 20 minutes and resulting in ±32 moves.


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## AvGalen (Feb 23, 2009)

guusrs said:


> AvGalen said:
> 
> 
> > Gunnar said:
> ...


 
Thanks Guus/Gus, it reminded me a lot about my PB of 33:
Scramble: D' F' D2 L B U2 L2 F' R U2 L2 D B F' D2 R2 D2 R D L2 U' L2
R2 B F'
Almost solved in 20: R' U F' D2 U2 L2 U' L B' L' D' B D2 B2 D2 B R D'
R' D'
And from that same competition comes my best start ever:
Scramble: D2 U' R D' U2 L' D' R2 B F2 R2 B' F L' D' B2 F2 D' U B2 F' D2 B2 D2 L2, perform U2 R B R D2 L F2 U2 F R B2 R' F' (full F2L was done in 13 moves!)


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## Jacco (Feb 24, 2009)

I actually feel a bit sorry I won fewest moves. I got quite lucky, here is my solution and comment:

Scramble: U F2 U F2 R2 B2 U' R B' L B' U2 F' L B R D2 F

(y'x') U' R U2 R' [make a white-green-orange pair]
F2 [make 2x2x1 block on U and fix white-orange edge]
U R' F R U F' U [finish 12 move double x-cross and make pair on B layer]
L B2 L' [insert that pair]
U B R B R' B2 R B' R' [last pair resulting into easy LL]
D L B L' B' D' [finish LL]

30 moves in total.


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## AvGalen (Feb 24, 2009)

Jacco said:


> I actually feel a bit sorry I won fewest moves. I got quite lucky, here is my solution and comment:
> 
> Scramble: U F2 U F2 R2 B2 U' R B' L B' U2 F' L B R D2 F
> 
> ...


Getting lucky is not a crime Jacco
Someday I will get a 6 move last layer as well and get a sub 20 solve


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## mande (Feb 24, 2009)

gogozerg said:


> mande said:
> 
> 
> > You had a 376 moves solution for the FMC :confused::confused::confused:
> ...



I didn't intend it that way...I was merely trying to find out if he really did get a 376 move solution, and if he did, how come it was so long (I think I did find the answer to that in another thread though).


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## Ton (Feb 25, 2009)

mande said:


> gogozerg said:
> 
> 
> > mande said:
> ...



Erik was so kind to check the solution, since for me it was not fun -I was busy with the score taking and checking the FM results. Next time I will set a max of 60 moves for FM as limit to accept the score.


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## AvGalen (Feb 25, 2009)

Ton said:


> mande said:
> 
> 
> > gogozerg said:
> ...



Sorry Ton, but I don't think you can do that:
8d)	Competitions may have *time *limits per round of an event, to make sure that the time schedule can be followed.
Z2)	Organisation team may limit the number of events per competitor.
Z4)	Organisation team may limit the number of competitors per event (first come first go, or based on qualification times or based on position on WCA world ranking).

Everyone agrees that Kais solve was stupid, but he is punished by being on the bottom of the rankings


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## hr.mohr (Feb 25, 2009)

AvGalen said:


> Ton said:
> 
> 
> > mande said:
> ...




Well you can have a time limit for checking the solution? ;-)
But seriously, doing an insanely long FMC solution may be valid in the letter of the regulations but it sure as hell is not by the spirit of them...

And there is this: 

11d)	If the WCA regulations are not fully clear or if the incident is not covered by the WCA regulations, then the main judge must make his decision based on fair sportsmanship, after consulting the WCA delegate


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## KJiptner (Feb 25, 2009)

I thought It was a funny thing to do (and a few others also did think that). But after putting my solution into the judges' box I started to feel quite bad about it. I know how much time pressure the judges usually have at a competition and apologize to everybody who didn't think this was amusing. Especially Erik, who was so kind and took like 20 attempts to check wheather it's correct. I won't do it again.


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## Stefan (Feb 25, 2009)

KJiptner said:


> Especially Erik, who was so kind and took like 20 attempts to check wheather it's correct.


How does that work? Did he do a majority vote (like 11 successes vs 10 failures) or did it take him 20 attempts to get it right and he failed the 19 times before? Neither case convinces me that the solution was indeed correct. Oh and when I told you this is a not so nice idea, was that beforehand or afterwards? I don't remember.


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## Mike Hughey (Feb 25, 2009)

AvGalen said:


> Sorry Ton, but I don't think you can do that:
> 8d)	Competitions may have *time *limits per round of an event, to make sure that the time schedule can be followed.
> Z2)	Organisation team may limit the number of events per competitor.
> Z4)	Organisation team may limit the number of competitors per event (first come first go, or based on qualification times or based on position on WCA world ranking).


You have a point. And hr.mohr, I don't think the regulations are unclear at all on this point - these are the only limits allowed - the regulations are quite clear about that. So Rule 11d cannot apply here.

Which also means the US Nationals probably need to remove the following:
"2. Solutions over 50 moves will not be graded and will be considered as DNFs."

Which also means we probably already have our first candidate for an addition to the 2010 rules.


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## Stefan (Feb 25, 2009)

Mike Hughey said:


> these are the only limits allowed


Just because move limits aren't allowed, doesn't mean they're forbidden.


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## Mike Hughey (Feb 25, 2009)

StefanPochmann said:


> Mike Hughey said:
> 
> 
> > these are the only limits allowed
> ...


I guess you're right. Looking at the text for Article Z:
"The purpose of optional regulations is to give extra possibilities to manage competitions. The organisation team of a competition may decide to apply one or more of the following optional regulations.
The application of optional regulations for a competition, must be approved by WCA Board."

This doesn't state that the specified regulations are the only optional ones allowed (perhaps it implies it, though). If it is allowed to do other optional regulations, then I guess anything would be okay as long as it's approved by the WCA Board.


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## Stefan (Feb 25, 2009)

And if all else fails, you can simply ... double check ... darn, you cannot anymore. The old rules allowed to have closed competitions for clubs, so I was about to suggest having a competition only for members of the "If I submit more than 50 moves for the FMC event then I'll pay the organizers $1 for each move"-club.


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## AvGalen (Feb 25, 2009)

StefanPochmann said:


> And if all else fails, you can simply ... double check ... darn, you cannot anymore. The old rules allowed to have closed competitions for clubs, so I was about to suggest having a competition only for members of the "If I submit more than 50 moves for the FMC event then I'll pay the organizers $1 for each move"-club.


That rule might have been removed just because of that reason 
A DNF would have costed me a fortune


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## fanwuq (Mar 3, 2009)

http://www.worldcubeassociation.org/results/c.php?i=BeneluxOpen2009&allResults=1#333mbf

Too many Multi BLD continental records?
Apparently everyone who participated now has a "History of Continental Records."


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## qqwref (Mar 3, 2009)

I still think we should put in the old multi-BLD records which are under an hour... it's stupid to have a "WR" of 4/4.

Anyway, for FMC, I think 50 moves is a bit strict since people still get over 50 moves while legitimately trying to do it as efficiently as possible. I think something more like 80 would be more fair... the only purpose is to discourage people doing EXTREMELY long solves, and a 50 move limit would be like having a strict official 1-minute time limit on 3x3 speedsolve. By the way, I really think we should start using some kind of FMC computer program to do these, rather than trying to have someone execute the moves themselves and hoping that they did not make a mistake.


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## Ton (Mar 3, 2009)

qqwref said:


> I still think we should put in the old multi-BLD records which are under an hour... it's stupid to have a "WR" of 4/4.
> 
> Anyway, for FMC, I think 50 moves is a bit strict since people still get over 50 moves while legitimately trying to do it as efficiently as possible. I think something more like 80 would be more fair... the only purpose is to discourage people doing EXTREMELY long solves, and a 50 move limit would be like having a strict official 1-minute time limit on 3x3 speedsolve. By the way, I really think we should start using some kind of FMC computer program to do these, rather than trying to have someone execute the moves themselves and hoping that they did not make a mistake.



For most competition we have only one lap-top used constantly, for most competitions I appoint 2 more judges to check them, DNF are checked more than one time, in doubt I check it with the competitor. But we could use a program for after the competition, when the WCA delegate checks the score sheets


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## AvGalen (Mar 3, 2009)

Ton said:


> qqwref said:
> 
> 
> > I still think we should put in the old multi-BLD records which are under an hour... it's stupid to have a "WR" of 4/4.
> ...


I agree about the old, sub 1 hour multi-blinds. I feel bad (but happy) with seconds place right now while knowing that others have already done 10/10 officialy

I disagree about the upper limit for FMC. There is no reason to stop beginners from trying and if they need 90 moves that's fine by me. Absurdly high moves like Kai's are like people doing one-handed blindfolded solves, blindfolded 2x2x2's and "almost 10 minutes" 3x3x3 solves. They are meant to be funny and as long as they don't disturb the overal tournament it is fine by me.

And I disagree about the computer for FMC. Not making mistakes is part of the event. We don't use robots to perform algs for us because our hands sometimes make mistakes.
Writing/scanning our solution directly into a computer would help with checking the solution, but only 1 "submit" per person should be allowed


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## Mike Hughey (Mar 3, 2009)

fanwuq said:


> http://www.worldcubeassociation.org/results/c.php?i=BeneluxOpen2009&allResults=1#333mbf
> 
> Too many Multi BLD continental records?
> Apparently everyone who participated now has a "History of Continental Records."



That's very funny! I especially like the people who have former continental records with a DNF. But it's not everyone who participated - only everyone who participated at Benelux. Bernett Orlando doesn't have one, even though he should have had the world record before Benelux.


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## qqwref (Mar 3, 2009)

AvGalen said:


> And I disagree about the computer for FMC. Not making mistakes is part of the event. We don't use robots to perform algs for us because our hands sometimes make mistakes.
> Writing/scanning our solution directly into a computer would help with checking the solution, but only 1 "submit" per person should be allowed



Oh, no, that's not at all what I mean. There's no way you should be able to use a computer when you're *competing* in FMC. I was saying that (if possible) we should use the computer more for checking FMC results, because I think people make mistakes when turning more than people make mistakes when transcribing moves one by one. The only rechecking you have to do is to make sure what you typed in matches what's on the paper.


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## AvGalen (Mar 3, 2009)

qqwref said:


> AvGalen said:
> 
> 
> > And I disagree about the computer for FMC. Not making mistakes is part of the event. We don't use robots to perform algs for us because our hands sometimes make mistakes.
> ...


I have more problems writing/typing a solution than I have performing one from the paper


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## Mike Hughey (Mar 3, 2009)

AvGalen said:


> I have more problems writing/typing a solution than I have performing one from the paper


I was about to say the exact same thing.


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## Pedro (Mar 3, 2009)

I used Lucas' FMC typer at the last competition here, and works great

about the multi, I don't think it's "stupid" to have a WR of 4/4...can we please not get started at this again? (6x6 and 7x7 come to mind...)

the event "just started", so the WR will surely improve with time...

and I don't think the old-under-hour times should count. After all, they were done in different conditions and rules. The event is much different now, so I agree with starting with a clean sheet (which is being filled)


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## Stefan (Mar 3, 2009)

Pedro said:


> and I don't think the old-under-hour times should count. *After all, they were done in different conditions and rules.*


What does that matter? How they were done is perfectly in compliance with the current rules! So why should they not be in the current ranklist?


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## Bryan (Mar 3, 2009)

Pedro said:


> I used Lucas' FMC typer at the last competition here, and works great
> 
> about the multi, I don't think it's "stupid" to have a WR of 4/4...can we please not get started at this again? (6x6 and 7x7 come to mind...)
> 
> ...



The 3x3x3 is done under different rules all the time. Should we throw away those results every time the regulations are updated?


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## Pedro (Mar 3, 2009)

right, you guys have a point here

my only doubt/question/concern is:

would they get those results if they had a 1 hour limit?
I mean, would they "risk" doing X cubes if they HAD to finish in under 1 hour?


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## qqwref (Mar 3, 2009)

It's irrelevant. None of the multi-BLD rules in the past would be considered cheating now (except not having paper, but who cares about that) - the only real difference in the rules was in how the attempts were scored (and the time limit counts as this, because really all a time limit says is "an attempt that takes more than X amount of time gets a score of DNF"). Remember we have three different styles now:
1) 15? minutes per cube max, attempts ranked first by whether all cubes were solved, then by number solved, then by total number attempted, then by time.
2) 10 minutes per cube maximum, attempts ranked by solved - not solved, then by time.
3) 10 minutes per cube, or an hour (whichever's less) maximum, attempts ranked by solved - not solved, then by time.

So I think that any attempts (no matter WHEN they were done) that are counted as a success within the new time limits should still be counted. I don't think it makes sense to invalidate an attempt just because the final result was ranked differently in 2005 and 2009 - it's still the same result, and just as impressive as an equal result from last weekend would be.

By the way... ANY attempt of 6 cubes or fewer has the same time limit now as it did before (i.e. in rule style #2), so there's actually no change at all. For example if you are doing 2 cubes you have 20 minutes just as you did before... the hour time limit doesn't even begin to affect you.

P.S. The real new rules WR, 10/10 in 44 mins by Dennis, doesn't seem like he was pushing his limit at all for the number of cubes he can do - I think he just wanted to do 10 cubes. I think even if they said "you can't go over an hour" he still would have done 10, knowing he was fast enough that he'd be under an hour for sure.


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## Mike Hughey (Mar 4, 2009)

qqwref said:


> P.S. The real new rules WR, 10/10 in 44 mins by Dennis, doesn't seem like he was pushing his limit at all for the number of cubes he can do - I think he just wanted to do 10 cubes. I think even if they said "you can't go over an hour" he still would have done 10, knowing he was fast enough that he'd be under an hour for sure.



Actually, I doubt it. One of the beautiful things about the new rule is that everyone will now be tempted to cut it as close to an hour as possible. At least for those of us who are fairly accurate, it's really your best chance for maximum points. So I'm guessing that if Dennis had been told "you can't go over an hour", he probably would have tried 12 or 13 (or maybe even 15) cubes. And he probably would have gotten them all, too. So I'm quite sure he would be the current record holder even then.

Hopefully everyone who was good at old rules multi will just get new solves soon so all of this will become irrelevant.


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## AvGalen (Mar 4, 2009)

My vote: Just include the valid old mbf results. It is the right thing to do

But I wanted to post for a different reason: I am very pissed off.
I was just unpacking my cubes from last weekend. And found out that:
1) Someone broke my Master Magic without telling me and apologising
2) Somebody decided that he had more rights on my timer and on 2 of my best 3x3x3's than I have

I always bring many puzzles so others can try/learn/experiment. Many people enjoy this and learn more about puzzles this way. If a puzzle goes missing, breaks or whatever I don't really mind. But if people decide to steal my stuff I get really sad and angry.

I have a pretty good idea who took these puzzles and I will try to find you and contact your parents! If you read this, send me a PM now so we can handle this as fast as possible


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## Ton (Mar 4, 2009)

AvGalen said:


> My vote: Just include the valid old mbf results. It is the right thing to do
> 
> But I wanted to post for a different reason: I am very pissed off.
> I was just unpacking my cubes from last weekend. And found out that:
> ...



Thats why my cubes/puzzles has a named stickers, in any case this is not what we want to see. But maybe Ron has your timer , one was left behind, and I noticed two cubes at the far end of the room. They still where there when I left. 

So please check with Ron and the organizers, sure hope no one dis steal it.

btw So it can not be me or Maria since we have no parents


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## TobiasDaneels (Mar 4, 2009)

AvGalen said:


> My vote: Just include the valid old mbf results. It is the right thing to do
> 
> But I wanted to post for a different reason: I am very pissed off.
> I was just unpacking my cubes from last weekend. And found out that:
> ...




That's really too bad, Arnoud.
Also because your hospitality towards everyone. It's a chaim people take advantage of it. I hope it's not stolen but left behind like Ton suggested.

People ask me also all the time to use my puzzles for competition, and I have no problem with that. Mostly they bring it back themselfes but sometimes I have to look after it because they just forget and let it somewhere.

Sometimes it's even broken.  (master magic)
Luckily, there's Arnoud for the rescue.


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## AvGalen (Mar 4, 2009)

Ton said:


> AvGalen said:
> 
> 
> > My vote: Just include the valid old mbf results. It is the right thing to do
> ...



That is actually really good news. I was suspecting two kids because they already tried to take Hakans timer and Robin thinks they also took his OH-cube. I hope I made a mistake and all will be returned. 

The two 3x3x3's were type F's with ultra-bright stickers. One of them is missing a chip from a yellow sticker. The other one looks the same but turns just a bit looser (it's for OH)
And the timer is unmarked, new and has no times stored in it.

If anyone found any of these items, please let me know and I will come to pick them up


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