# 4x4 Variation



## bwronski (Jun 8, 2011)

I was messing around on 4x4 and came across this reduction variation.

1. Solve three centers, none of them being opposite. (so Red, Blue, Yellow) with correct permutaion.
2. Then pair up the edges that connect the centers. (RB,BY,RY)
3. (can becombind with step 2) solve a 3x3x3 block with the edges
4. Solve the rest of the centers, without breaking up the block.
5. Pair up the rest of the edges without destrying the 3x3x3 block. I like to hold the block at DBR so that the left side has the majority of the unpaired edges.(I turn alot with my right hand and that prevents regrips)
6. Once all the edges are paired up solve as normal, but now there is already a block done so thers is 1 cross piece and 2 f2l pairs to find. They can be set up before the last few pairs are solved so look ahead go even further.

I think this is a good variation to normal reduction. Look ahead and piece identification is improved because the locations where pieces can "hide" is pre solved, making it obsolete when looking for edges. And for petrus users their "2x2x2" block is already solved. And maybe with planning and more development could have the edges already oriented.
Solving the final centers isn't slowed down much too.

Should this be in How To? or Dicussion?

I haven't timed it yet, but I will when I have decided on some stuff. (Always solving the same centers/ trying to solve edges after paired)

Thoughts, Comments, Concerns?


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## Julian (Jun 8, 2011)

Well, I don't know about potential for speed, but I tried a solve and it was certainly fun to do


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## ben1996123 (Jun 8, 2011)

I made this method before as well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=llsXYMdpf0I

method:

white and blue centres
white blue edge
orange centre
white orange edge
blue white orange F2L slot
yellow centre
blue yellow edge
blue yellow orange f2l slot
green and red centres
last 7 edges
cross edge
2 f2l slots
ll

I average about the same with this method and reduction. I made this several months ago.


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## Kirjava (Jun 8, 2011)

ben1996123 said:


> I made this method before as well.


 
So did everyone.


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## nlCuber22 (Jun 8, 2011)

ya, I tried this same thing about a year ago. I was thinking a kind of Petrus Yau. But it's not very fast.


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## uberCuber (Jun 8, 2011)

nlCuber22 said:


> ya, I tried this same thing about a year ago. I was thinking a kind of Petrus Yau. But it's not very fast.


 
but its ok. ben averages the same with this and "normal" reduction :tu


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## Kirjava (Jun 8, 2011)

uberCuber said:


> but its ok. ben averages the same with this and "normal" reduction :tu


 
that doesn't mean anything.


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## Georgeanderre (Jun 8, 2011)

nothing special, almost like petrus on 4x4, im sure most people that try to solve unconventionally have tried this before, i certainly have

another one ive tried is op centres, k4 block on both sides, last 4 centres and then MU spam or comm to solve the rest, i cant even sub 3 like this, but im sure others could


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## Kirjava (Jun 8, 2011)

Georgeanderre said:


> another one ive tried is op centres, k4 block on both sides, last 4 centres and then MU spam or comm to solve the rest, i cant even sub 3 like this, but im sure others could



"Roux on 4x4x4" methods seem quite popular to create, but personally I really don't like the restriction caused by having 1x3x4 block on both sides. <M,U> may work well on 3x3x3, but <l,r,U> is nowhere near as nice.


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## Georgeanderre (Jun 8, 2011)

Kirjava said:


> "Roux on 4x4x4" methods seem quite popular to create, but personally I really don't like the restriction caused by having 1x3x4 block on both sides. <M,U> may work well on 3x3x3, but <l,r,U> is nowhere near as nice.


 
thats why i use K4, no restriction on the right side of the cube
and no awkward looking around for pieces, there is always a useful piece in a useful position


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## Kirjava (Jun 8, 2011)

Georgeanderre said:


> i use K4


 
omg are you coming to guildford?!

I have to show you stuff


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## vcuber13 (Jun 8, 2011)

like what? i want to know too.


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## Georgeanderre (Jun 8, 2011)

Kirjava said:


> omg are you coming to guildford?!
> 
> I have to show you stuff


 
Unfortunately not, ill be in Swansea -.- i was looking forward to going then my family had to book a geocaching event (looking for Tupperware under hedges)
Im not the fastest K4 solver, i can almost sub 2, and i use 50 look ell.., and instead of cll i use co-cp from l2lk


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## Kirjava (Jun 8, 2011)

vcuber13 said:


> like what? i want to know too.



Eh, just walkthrough solves and stuff. I just wanna talk to someone else who uses it IRL.



Georgeanderre said:


> i use 50 look ell


 
Wat. What system are you using?


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## Georgeanderre (Jun 8, 2011)

Kirjava said:


> Eh, just walkthrough solves and stuff. I just wanna talk to someone else who uses it IRL.
> 
> 
> 
> Wat. What system are you using?


 
well, atm im focusing on learning co-cp for l2lk, so i havent learned many of the ell comms...
i use eoll and epll
eoll using adapted 3x3 cases and epll using 3 cycles for two op edges then a parity
very slow, i also use col for the edge insertions

video of me solving with k4: Here


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## uberCuber (Jun 8, 2011)

Kirjava said:


> that doesn't mean anything.


 
was sarcastic 



Georgeanderre said:


> i use eoll and epll
> eoll using adapted 3x3 cases and epll using 3 cycles for two op edges then a parity


 
um wat
edges on a 4x4 are just permuted. There is no orientation. An edge can't be "flipped" and remain in the same position.


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## Kirjava (Jun 9, 2011)

Why does everyone always try and do OLL in K4?

I watched the video. old school f3l style


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## Athefre (Jun 9, 2011)

Kirjava said:


> Why does everyone always try and do OLL in K4?


 
Maybe they find the normal way hard. I don't do OLL, but I sure do find the step hard. I'll often get to the last two or three edges and sit there for 30 minutes trying to figure out what to do. Then, set the cube down and, for the rest of the day, think about how I can solve that case. I completely understand everything on your site except the 2 and 4-cycles, but usually I'm unable to apply it during a solve and I don't want to just memorize every case. I don't want to spend hours every day trying to figure out *one* solve, hoping I'll eventually improve. I end up putting the 4x4 down and just going back to 3x3.


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## Jaysammey777 (Jun 9, 2011)

I still like my method:
2x2x2
2x2x4 in LD
Left center and right center
the top left center pieces on the front and back (the ones not affected by r moves)
the left edges
finish centers
edge pairing with R, r, and U(can do eo at the same time)
solve the rest like 3x3x3


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## Georgeanderre (Jun 9, 2011)

uberCuber said:


> um wat
> edges on a 4x4 are just permuted. There is no orientation. An edge can't be "flipped" and remain in the same position.



using 3 cycles, i ignore all the side colours until the top face is all 1 colour, its slow but ive explained why above



Kirjava said:


> Why does everyone always try and do OLL in K4?
> 
> I watched the video. old school f3l style


 
as ive already explained, i havent got much time to learn k4 ll atm, im learning co-cp,
but i did learn 2 more last night, might learn another 2 today,
and yes i still use old f3l style because im more used to doing the cross and then edge insertions on the left, as opposed to on bottom
i did get an email with a link to one of your k4 solves last night and the f3l style looks much more fluent, unlike mine which is more sporadic


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## Georgeanderre (Jun 9, 2011)

Athefre said:


> Maybe they find the normal way hard. I don't do OLL, but I sure do find the step hard. I'll often get to the last two or three edges and sit there for 30 minutes trying to figure out what to do. Then, set the cube down and, for the rest of the day, think about how I can solve that case. I completely understand everything on your site except the 2 and 4-cycles, but usually I'm unable to apply it during a solve and I don't want to just memorize every case. I don't want to spend hours every day trying to figure out *one* solve, hoping I'll eventually improve. I end up putting the 4x4 down and just going back to 3x3.


 
that's why its advised not to learn every case:

The algorithms are listed to provide you with hopefully nicer alternatives if you find bad ones, to show you various tricks you can employ to manipulate edges and to show you how to do cases you may not have worked out youself. Study them, but _*don't*_ learn them. (Direct Quote)


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## Athefre (Jun 9, 2011)

I've read the site many times and I use a 3x3 method where it's creator advises not to memorize solutions (Roux steps 2 and 4). I know not to memorize everything (like I said in my post) and I fully understand the solutions on the site. It's just that it takes me hours to apply it in a solve.

EDIT: This doesn't happen every solve. Some solves go by quickly. It's just not fun to sit there for so long to find a solution to the difficult ones.



Spoiler



Solving my own problem the more I post?


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## jack3256 (Jun 9, 2011)

Dude I sometimes use K4 and do 3/4 look Ell


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## vcuber13 (Jun 9, 2011)

and?


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## Georgeanderre (Jun 9, 2011)

jack3256 said:


> Dude I sometimes use K4 and do 3/4 look Ell


 
K4 is 3/4 look ell....
its pretty hard or a fluke to do anything less than that -.-


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## TMOY (Jun 10, 2011)

uberCuber said:


> um wat
> edges on a 4x4 are just permuted. There is no orientation. An edge can't be "flipped" and remain in the same position.


 
The fact that edges cannpt be flipped doesn't make it imposible to put an useful orientation scheme on them. Granted, pure orientation is impossible, but you can still permute them in order to get them all oriented.


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## uberCuber (Jun 10, 2011)

TMOY said:


> The fact that edges cannpt be flipped doesn't make it imposible to put an useful orientation scheme on them.


 
Sure, not impossible, but pointlessly inefficient; all you're doing is permuting pieces around without solving anything.

I understand that some people do it because they aren't used to/haven't learned to solve cycles directly, but why use the method at all if you can't do it right? It's not like 2-look OLL vs. 1-look OLL; the K4 ELL algs are mostly commutator type stuff that don't have to be learned as a big alg set like OLL, EG, etc.


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## Kirjava (Jun 11, 2011)

Georgeanderre said:


> K4 is 3/4 look ell....
> its pretty hard or a fluke to do anything less than that -.-


 
I never do 4 look. 2/3 look is common.


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## Georgeanderre (Jun 11, 2011)

Kirjava said:


> I never do 4 look. 2/3 look is common.


 
I've learnt a few more cases, but I still have a lot to learn, Inc all of the 24 op l2e cases but they are all fairly similar
+ I've stopped using oell and started using the same algorithms for pell, 
still not sub 2 but I do more 7x7 and 6x6 than anything else so I should start getting sub 2's soon enough


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## mariano.aquino (Jun 12, 2011)

Kirjava, i have a doubt about k4´s LL
my question is: after COLL
do you pair up remaining edges anywhere and ELL them?
or u commute them from wherever they may be to the right position?
still can´t figure out the way to do LL in less than 4 looks.. =(


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## Georgeanderre (Jun 12, 2011)

mariano.aquino said:


> Kirjava, i have a doubt about k4´s LL
> my question is: after COLL
> do you pair up remaining edges anywhere and ELL them?
> or u commute them from wherever they may be to the right position?
> still can´t figure out the way to do LL in less than 4 looks.. =(


 
Permute them from wherever they are allready:
1 edge, opposite edge, then last 2 edges
or 1 edge, adjacent edge, last 2 edges

or just get all 1 colour upwards then permute them all 1 by 1 "eoll, epll"


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## Kirjava (Jun 12, 2011)

mariano.aquino said:


> do you pair up remaining edges anywhere and ELL them?



No!



mariano.aquino said:


> or u commute them from wherever they may be to the right position?



Yes!



mariano.aquino said:


> still can´t figure out the way to do LL in less than 4 looks.. =(


 
Read the website!


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## Georgeanderre (Jun 12, 2011)

I have to do a lot more K4, need to get faster at every part, + learn a ton more 4x4 ell cases


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