# Europe 2008



## Erik (May 8, 2008)

The European Rubik's Cube Championship 2008 will take place on September 19/20/21, 2008 in Bilbao, Spain. More details and registration will follow soon.

http://www.worldcubeassociation.org/results/c.php?i=Euro2008

Seems like it's been moved from Krakaw to Bilbao


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## Gunnar (May 8, 2008)

Erik said:


> The European Rubik's Cube Championship 2008 will take place on September 19/20/21, 2008 in Bilbao, Spain. More details and registration will follow soon.
> 
> http://www.worldcubeassociation.org/results/c.php?i=Euro2008
> 
> Seems like it's been moved from Krakaw to Bilbao



Yeah, I just noticed. I wonder what happend to krakow??

Well, I've never been to Spain so it'll be a great trip I'm sure.


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## RobinBloehm (May 8, 2008)

Yeah, looking forward to it, too, very interested into the Krakow-topic.


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## joey (May 8, 2008)

I hope to be there! Aswell as a few other UKers  The UK needs to be represented more!
Anyone willing to sponsor me?


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## ngb (May 9, 2008)

Gunnar said:


> Erik said:
> 
> 
> > The European Rubik's Cube Championship 2008 will take place on September 19/20/21, 2008 in Bilbao, Spain. More details and registration will follow soon.
> ...



Problems between sponsors and organization i think


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## AvGalen (May 9, 2008)

Last year, the tournament in Wadowice felt like a European Championship. It had a lot of competitors, great organisation and a lot of "atmosphere enhancing" items like a fanfare, cheerleaders, raising of the flag and a very nice working electronic scoreboard.

This year Wadowice is only 1 day and the EC that was supposed to happen in Poland too is now going to be in spain?

Polish cubers are already one of the most unknown/underestimated cubers. I don't think many of them will come to Spain.


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## Inusagi (May 9, 2008)

I wondered why it changed. I was about to buy some airport tickets to Poland, and I am happy I didn't. When it is sured that the date won't change?


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## joey (May 9, 2008)

It turns out, one of my UK cubers is dropping out (isn't able to make it). Like usual, I can see there will be a low UK head count!


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## Jason (May 9, 2008)

I'm from the UK and I'll be there for sure


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## gogozerg (May 9, 2008)

I am going.
Expect to meet a lot of French cubers.


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## Hadley4000 (May 10, 2008)

I expect to hear about WRs broken!


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## joey (May 10, 2008)

Hadley4000 said:


> I expect to hear about WRs broken!


I'll go for BLD. (Which means I get WR,ER and UK NR *i think*)


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## Inusagi (May 14, 2008)

I don't try to get my post numbers higher or anything, but I need an answer on this question. Is there a chance that the date will change? And if there is, when am I sure that the date won't change (like last time)? I don't want to buy tickets, while the date is changing...


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## Henrik (May 14, 2008)

Some of us know just as much as you 
Im just looking forward to some more info, of venue and a website, but it will come in time, I know for sure.
I btw hope to be there too.


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## DavidCalvo (May 14, 2008)

Hello guys!

The date of the championship won't be changed, for sure.

And regarding the webpage, during this following week it may be done public.

A little bit of patience, I know it's hard to wait but very soon everything will be sorted out.

Cheers!

David


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## KConny (May 14, 2008)

Why did you pick Bilbao and not a bigger/easier to get to city like Barcelona or Madrid?


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## ngb (May 15, 2008)

KConny said:


> Why did you pick Bilbao and not a bigger/easier to get to city like Barcelona or Madrid?



cause he's from Bilbao. He was organising an open in Bilbao and holding Euro 2008 was a good option


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## Gunnar (May 15, 2008)

joey said:


> Hadley4000 said:
> 
> 
> > I expect to hear about WRs broken!
> ...



And I'll go for the OH WR, but I guess that some of the fast asian will have crushed the WR hard before Bilbao.


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## Inusagi (May 15, 2008)

rastarubik said:


> Hello guys!
> 
> The date of the championship won't be changed, for sure.
> 
> ...



How can I be sure when it changed last time?


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## Inusagi (May 17, 2008)

Is it soo hard to answer?


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## KConny (May 17, 2008)

You can't be sure. Spain might get nuked tomorrow. Having chageded once does not make it more likley to change again, rather to the contrary. You just have take a "chance".


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## DavidCalvo (May 17, 2008)

I'm sorry I haven't been reading these forums lately.

It's 100% sure that it will be in Spain, no changes, for sure.


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## Inusagi (May 17, 2008)

rastarubik said:


> I'm sorry I haven't been reading these forums lately.
> 
> It's 100% sure that it will be in Spain, no changes, for sure.



How do you know that?


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## Stefan (May 17, 2008)

That guy sees the future, dude.


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## Inusagi (May 17, 2008)

rastarubik said:


> I'm sorry I haven't been reading these forums lately.
> 
> It's 100% sure that it will be in Spain, no changes, for sure.





StefanPochmann said:


> That guy sees the future, dude.



The who's winning? I guess you have already seen the results?

Anyway, what is the true reason that you are sure?


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## Doudou (May 17, 2008)

And ? Who won ?

(PS : I finished 1st in all the competitions i participated in Spain (5))


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## KConny (May 17, 2008)

Inusagi said:


> Anyway, what is the true reason that you are sure?


God spoke to him.


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## Lucas Garron (May 17, 2008)

KConny said:


> Inusagi said:
> 
> 
> > Anyway, what is the true reason that you are sure?
> ...


Did he also reveal his famous algorithm?


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## KConny (May 17, 2008)

Lucas Garron said:


> KConny said:
> 
> 
> > Inusagi said:
> ...



He just said: "You must seek a man from the north, his name is Sune, and he will show you the way. "


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## Inusagi (May 18, 2008)

I actually mean it. I need to know if I am going to a another competition a another time, because if it's changing I'll lose a lot of moneys.


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## Kickflip1993 (May 18, 2008)

You can get sponsored because of speedcubing??
I dind´t know that^^
I don´t think, i am gonna come, i am 15 years old, i don´t have the money for this, but in 2009 i am gonna come to Gütersloh to the german open.
Do you think i am gonna get sub 15 avg when i have 19.79 now??


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## Ewks (May 18, 2008)

I'm 80 % sure I'm going to be there. It would be my first big competition and I would really like to come. Hope my mom helps me with the money part


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## Erik (May 18, 2008)

Doudou said:


> And ? Who won ?
> 
> (PS : I finished 1st in all the competitions i participated in Spain (5))



Noooooo Edouard is trying to intimidate the other European guys already 

@ Rastarubik: Please tell me this tournament WILL be on schedule ?


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## DavidCalvo (May 18, 2008)

LOL, Erik, you should have seen the last Barcelona Open....

Ask Edouard.... 

But remember I was not (at least untill the day of the competition) directly involved in the competition organization..... so it was not my fault 

But yes, you guys usually find funny how relaxed is spanish people...

You know.. Spain is different!


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## Erik (May 19, 2008)

rastarubik said:


> LOL, Erik, you should have seen the last Barcelona Open....
> Ask Edouard....
> But remember I was not (at least untill the day of the competition) directly involved in the competition organization..... so it was not my fault
> But yes, you guys usually find funny how relaxed is spanish people...
> You know.. Spain is different!


Hey man no problem about the people man, you guys are really cool! :-D
Btw... in september it's kinda hot there... will it be the first cubing competition with a siesta? xD


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## Ewks (May 19, 2008)

Do you gyus know if hotels in bilbao are expensive? I think I can get some kind of cheap flight tickets there.


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## Rama (May 20, 2008)

The registration page is up, all I can say now is: register!

http://www.speedcubing.com/events/euro2008/registration.html


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## Inusagi (May 20, 2008)

I sit true that all competitors can win prizes? Then the japanese people is going to take all the prizes!


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## Rama (May 20, 2008)

Inusagi said:


> I sit true that all competitors can win prizes? Then the japanese people is going to take all the prizes!



Learn geography.


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## Inusagi (May 20, 2008)

It says:
The European Rubik's Cube Championship is open to competitors from all countries of all ages.
All competitors can win prizes, but for each event only the best competitors from Europe and Israel are eligible for the official European Championship medals.
Competing at the European Championship is free. All competitors receive a gift pack.

Then why does it say All competitors can win? And also it says, open to all countries of all ages..


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## Pedro (May 20, 2008)

Inusagi said:


> It says:
> The European Rubik's Cube Championship is open to competitors from all countries of all ages.
> All competitors can win prizes, but for each event only the best competitors from Europe and Israel are eligible for the official European Championship medals.
> Competing at the European Championship is free. All competitors receive a gift pack.
> ...



"All competitors can win prizes"


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## Rama (May 20, 2008)

Well Ron confirmed it, it's open for everyone... why would it be an European Championships, I'll just call it the European Open.

Atleast my mom can compete at the EC Open. 

Inusagi ever heard of Erik akkersdijk and Bikshu 'from' Holland with the 4x4x4 and 5x5x5 cube?
Offcourse there are also Adam Polkowski and Piotr Kózka being 2nd and 3rd in the whole world with the 4x4x4 cube average, respectively and the Polish cubers also have Tomasz Zolnowski with the 5x5x5.
Poland also has Konrad Stawski for the 3x3x3 blindfolded event.
These are just the turbo cubers from Poland and I am not even talking about their 2x2x2, Pyraminx and Square-1 solvers. Denmark has a very awesome magic 'twister', Germany ''two'' crazy multiple blindfolded solvers.
There are more awesome European cubers offcourse, but I don't have the time now.

If American and Canadian cubers would also join in they could make it even harder for the Japanese team to take ''all'' prizes.


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## masterofthebass (May 20, 2008)

It's actually only $450 US to fly there. If I can get a decent job this summer, I could maybe make it. Also I'm open to donations


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## Crazycubemom (May 20, 2008)

Why EUROPEAN Championships, just call it immediatly the World Championships.


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## Doudou (May 20, 2008)

Yes, true. 

Joel will stay the last European Champion, and who can proud to be it. 
Now the European champion will finish 4th at the European championnships.

We should call that "Bilbao Open".


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## Rama (May 20, 2008)

Doudou said:


> Now the European champion will finish 4th at the European championnships.



I was thinking exactly the same.

It's not that I don't like the fact that non-European country's can compete (even better I'd love to meet new people), I don't complain that fast, but it's THE European Championships we are talking about.

1: ''Hey I just became European Champion last weekend''
2: ''Wow you finished first!?''
1: ''I finished 5th in the finals being the best European cuber''

The podium is an important thing for me and now the one who is on the podium may not even be European.
I don't care if we Europeans get our butts kicked, but again I tell you ''it's the European Championships''.


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## Simboubou (May 20, 2008)

If they let everyone compete, they should just call it "World Championship", and the matter will be resolved.


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## Lucas Garron (May 20, 2008)

Simboubou said:


> If they let everyone compete, they should just call it "World Championship", and the matter will be resolved.


I would like the US Open to be called the "World Championship," too. And I'll make sure that any Stanford competitions will also be called "World Championships" from now on. 

Just because you allow everyone to compete doesn't mean it's the Worlds...


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## Erik (May 20, 2008)

p.s. sorry for the double post I only wanted to include the quote in it didn't know it'd make a new message out of it. Can a moderator please remove this reply? :-s


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## Erik (May 20, 2008)

Rama said:


> Doudou said:
> 
> 
> > Now the European champion will finish 4th at the European championnships.
> ...



Totally agree with my brother there.

I like the fact of a European Open, but now the purpose of the EC is gone. I don't have anything against a European Open I really like it... but I think the European Championship should be as it was! Why not make 2 tournaments instead of copying everything from how the US guys are doing things?
How can you be European Champion if you might end 10th, only get a medal and get few glory from press and people because Yu Nakajima won with 2 new WR's?
It's a bit strange to me that out of nowhere this was decided before checking the opinion of the European cubers...


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## Doudou (May 20, 2008)

1: ''Hey I just became European Champion last weekend''
2: ''Wow you finished first!?''
1: ''I was not in the final...''

Very funny ...


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## rxdeath (May 20, 2008)

i'm very happy with this decision, and i have had many conversations with people who disagree. 

i think that the only thing that is affected is 'podium ego' and if you're the fastest euro cuber, it won't change because anyone else shows up. no one remembers that macky won the 2004 us champs, just that jon morris was us champion.

every competition should be open for everyone, everywhere, every time. anything else is elitist bs. i don't personally have a problem with anyone, and i'm sorry this decision disappoints so many, but it's a good one in my opinion.


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## Lucas Garron (May 20, 2008)

Doudou said:


> 1: ''Hey I just became European Champion last weekend''
> 2: ''Wow you finished first!?''
> 1: ''I was not in the final...''
> 
> Very funny ...


How about increasing the number of people in the final to accommodate at least 3 Europeans in each event?


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## Doudou (May 20, 2008)

Lucas Garron said:


> Doudou said:
> 
> 
> > 1: ''Hey I just became European Champion last weekend''
> ...




Looooooooooooool... I never heard something so strange/dumb. 
Come on, it is not possible. And why 3 ?
It has no sense.


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## rxdeath (May 20, 2008)

Lucas Garron said:


> Doudou said:
> 
> 
> > 1: ''Hey I just became European Champion last weekend''
> ...



how about it's fair and who does best goes on...top place euro competitor gets the title


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## Doudou (May 20, 2008)

rxdeath said:


> no one remembers that macky won the 2004 us champs, just that jon morris was us champion.


You remember it. That's too much for me.


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## masterofthebass (May 20, 2008)

so Edouard, come to US Nationals, and kick our butts. You won't be the US champion, and you'll still get to be on top of the podium


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## Erik (May 20, 2008)

The winner of the EC is always the European Champion. You can't translate this to the best European Cuber in competition, it's 2 different things. And that's where I think the core of the discussion lies. 

The best Euro cuber is always decided by who wins the EC, if it's not then you can just look at the European Record for that. Just like the best cuber in the World is decided by who wins the World Champs.


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## Bryan (May 20, 2008)

Doudou said:


> Now the European champion will finish 4th at the European championnships.



I took 4th place at the US Open in the Pyraminx last year. I got the NAR, but no trophy. Now, I could sit at try to justify that it was an "Open", and that the Europeans did have the right to be there, but it was sponsored by an American company, blah blah blah.

Or, I could just accept the fact that there were competitors there that were faster than me, and I took 4th.


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## Rama (May 20, 2008)

Bryan said:


> Doudou said:
> 
> 
> > Now the European champion will finish 4th at the European championnships.
> ...




It's an Open not a Championship.


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## tim (May 20, 2008)

Bryan said:


> Doudou said:
> 
> 
> > Now the European champion will finish 4th at the European championnships.
> ...



US Open != US Championship. You're mixing things up.

Anyway, i don't really care, since i can't make it to the top of any events. Except for multi bld and there i would love to compete with Rowe and Ryosuke.


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## Bryan (May 20, 2008)

Rama said:


> Bryan said:
> 
> 
> > it was an "Open", and that the Europeans did have the right to be there
> ...



Yeah, good thing I mentioned it  

I suppose I could reference the 2006 US Nationals, but many people have already done that. But one of my points was that it was sponsored by an American company, which some people have tried to justify their closed competitions that way. The other point was that I took 4th because 3 people were faster than me.


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## rubikaz (May 20, 2008)

joey said:


> Hadley4000 said:
> 
> 
> > I expect to hear about WRs broken!
> ...




Sorry Joey...




Doudou said:


> And ? Who won ?
> 
> (PS : I finished 1st in all the competitions i participated in Spain (5))




and I can say: I finished 1st in blindfold in all the competitions i participated in Spain (6, 2 nacionals + 4 opens)


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## shelley (May 21, 2008)

To those who oppose the open competition: would you feel satisfied winning with the knowledge that you only won because you excluded others?

Come on. Cube tournaments are about having fun, meeting people, learning new things. It's not about who gets to stand on the podium for 30 seconds at the end of the tournament. The title of European Champion isn't enough for you?


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## Dene (May 21, 2008)

Hang on, why would the winner of the competition not be a European? You have Erik Akkersdijk, Edouard Chambon, Milán Baticz, Thibaut Jacquinot, Tomasz Zolnowski and Joël van Noort as well as many others who are all contenders for first place.


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## Tyson (May 21, 2008)

Glory and ego are the same word in essence. If you care about glory, you are only trying to satisfy your own ego, and I feel sorry for you that you need this.

At US Nationals and Open, I plan to announce the international winners first, and then the winners for the US Nationals afterwards. Those who want their podium time will get it.

But what's that worth anyway? I was actually robbed of podium time. But fortunately, I have enough other life accomplishments that it's not the biggest deal.

And what's this "oh, I took 5th place but I was the fastest European." Just tell the press that you're the European Champion. The foreigners competed in a different aspect of the competition.

Learn to separate the processes in your heads. And I really don't see what glory there is. It's only in your own mind. I would take last place in every event and get completely destroyed by foreign competitors if it meant I could get to hang out with Mitsuki Gunji.


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## hdskull (May 21, 2008)

How likely is it for all the good cubers from the world to fly there ? 

anyway, I am neutral on that topic, but I'd like to mention something else.

How come there are free competitions in Europe with prizes for everyone, but there are no free competitions (even with no prizes) in the United States? Well, at least not in California.


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## Ron (May 21, 2008)

Hi all,

When I go to a competition there are 6 things that could be interesting:
1) I have a lot of fun
2) I meet lots of people
3) I visit a foreign country/city
4) I have the opportunity to set personal records under pressure
5) I win titles
6) I win prizes

For me 1-4 are my top priorities. Without these I would not go to competitions.
5 is a nice extra.
I do not care about 6 at all.

Euro 2008 being open means to me:
1) more fun!
2) more people!
3) first competition in Spain/Bilbao
4) more pressure is good!
5) probably 5-20% foreign cubers, but they do not influence my chances. I can win the title.
6) a little less chance to win anything, but it is not important to me.

Suppose we would call it European Open and still let the European winners be European Champion. Would that make a difference?

Have fun,

Ron


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## Ewks (May 21, 2008)

I don't think that it is a bad thing to let people from outside europe to compete. I personally don't have any chance of getting even top 30 at anything, but I don't mind 'cause I can meet lots of people(maybe even some international champions). And if you're good enough to be the euro champion you should be able to fight back those foreing people. So in my oppinion it is good thing that foreing people are allowed to compete.


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## jazzthief81 (May 21, 2008)

Ron said:


> Suppose we would call it European Open and still let the European winners be European Champion. Would that make a difference?
> 
> Have fun,
> 
> Ron



Why not call it the Open European Championship? 

http://www.mahjongnews.com/oemc2005.htm 
http://oemc.mahjong.dk/

Lars


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## Erik (May 21, 2008)

Seriously why don't we really make the name World Championship, if it's a big 3 day tourney, everyone can compete. What's the difference? What's the horrible thing about having an 'onderonsje' (a little battle between people of one region) . By the way, in every sport there are national championships and european championships. 
The meaning of the title you get when winning the European Open is looking different to me than to winning a true EC. 
To have an Open like this is in my opinion an attempt to do 2 things at the same time. But it doesn't seem possible to me to succesfully combine both. The one is to have a big championship where there will be a top 3 and the winner of the tournament who gets the title of that tournament (i.e. France Open Champion, Benelux Open Champion, etc.), the other is an attempt to have an EC where you want to determine the best cubers from Europe with a tournament where the top 3 will be the best 3 cubers in Europe on each event.

I don't really hate the Europe Open at all, but by making this we kinda destroy something else.

So again, I vow for both a Europe Open (where there won't be any titles besides the title European Open Champion) AND a Closed European Championship (where the winner will have the titel European Champion), the first because, just like Ron I love the people, the countries, the races, the pressure and the fun!

p.s. the likelyness of for example Nakajima to compete or the number of non-european cubers that will probably compete, or the chance that a european will probably win is completely irrelevant.


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## Rama (May 21, 2008)

Bryan said:


> The other point was that I took 4th because 3 people were faster than me.



Yeah, it's a good thing that you already mentioned this.



Tyson said:


> Glory and ego are the same word in essence. If you care about glory, you are only trying to satisfy your own ego, and I feel sorry for you that you need this.
> 
> At US Nationals and Open, I plan to announce the international winners first, and then the winners for the US Nationals afterwards. Those who want their podium time will get it.
> 
> ...



I don't care if we get our butts kicked like I already said, it's an Championship.

You cannot imagine how much I want to meet new ''foreign'' cubers, but it's an Championship.

I want to compare my times with other European cubers without using the WCA ''Regions'' list and/or ignoring the 'foreign' cubers on the results list.



Ron said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Suppose we would call it European Open and still let the European winners be European Champion. Would that make a difference?
> 
> ...



Ron that is accaptable, but I won't recognize someone as the European Champion even though if he or she has or hasn't finished 1st place.


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## Bryan (May 21, 2008)

OK, does any honestly think about the titles that often? If someone is French and doesn't win the French title, but wins the European title, it seems to be inconsistent that they're the European champ, but not the French champ.

As for calling it "World's", is that just because if you get your title, you want it to be a World Title instead of European title? Besides, geography wise, the competition is going to be dominated by Europeans. Perhaps we should've called Armonk the World's for this year.


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## Doudou (May 21, 2008)

Ewks said:


> And if you're good enough to be the euro champion you should be able to fight back those foreing people.



Is it a joke ? What you are saying has no sense at all.

Why isn't there foreign competitors in US track and field qualifications for Olympic Games ? Why isn't there any european team in the NBA ? Why does the N means "national" ? Are not you against that, too ? 

Why don't the Brazil compete in European Soccer championnship ? 

Ron, you want more competitions, with more people. I want it too.
Deleting the european championnship and create a Bilbao Open will not give more competitors, it will have the inverse effect. I saw a lot of french competitors who wants to go to European Championnships. I don't think there will be so many french people at the Bilbao Open at all.

That's funny that people against the Euro (the great one, not the bilbao Open) are only non-european people...
I think you just can not understand.
If you want to fly to Europe for free, please, find a sponsor. And let us live. We don't want to be americans.


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## mrCage (May 21, 2008)

Hi 

I see that closedness/openness is causing a big debate.

I for once will support a bit of strictness, maybe a bit too late as it has now been made an open championship already.

My concern is no related to national pride or anything like that. But simply the fact that allowing an even larger number of participants would (possibly) make hosting more expensive (larger venues) and also (again possibly) reduce the number of events possible as more prerounds would have to be arranged to accomodate for higher number of participants.

Also with the very high number of events, the reasons for making this an open championship seem rather faint.

If a sprinter has his prime season in a yr without any wc or olympics, so be it. It will have to be the same also for speedcubing, IMHO. Im only being practical ...

- Per


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## Tyson (May 21, 2008)

Track and field is a professional sport. The NBA is a professional organization. People do these things for money. I sport is different when it becomes your job. The US Track and Field Olympic Qualifications also serves a different purpose... it tries to identify which US Citizens to send to the Olympics. We did the same thing at US Open 2007. The idea was that we were trying to find someone to send to WC 2007 to represent the United States. If a Canadian had won, we would have given it to the next person. Canada had their own event prior to that.

Track and field is also very different. In a 1500 meter race, it is very tactical, and fast runners in the field will change the race is run. Furthermore, you can only have a certain number of people on the track at a given time. In a lane event, you are limited by the number of lanes. Cubing has none of these restrictions. It doesn't matter who's there, your pursuit is still individual, independent of the other results. So having other people in the competition will not affect you.

And it takes such little effort to scan the list and mentally filter things by region. In all likelihood, you'll probably only need to remove one or two names at most.

Where's your perspective? What would happen if the US Nationals was closed? What about 2004? What if one day, 50% of the cubers in Europe are from other countries?


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## Bryan (May 21, 2008)

Doudou said:


> Why isn't there any european team in the NBA ?



It's probably more a question of logistics. We do have a Canadian team in the NBA.



Doudou said:


> I saw a lot of french competitors who wants to go to European Championnships. I don't think there will be so many french people at the Bilbao Open at all.


Are the French against more competitors?



Doudou said:


> That's funny that people against the Euro (the great one, not the bilbao Open) are only non-european people...


Umm....yeah, because the Europeans aren't affected by a closed competition that's only open to Europeans. Perhaps I should say it's funny that the only people who complain about having the EC open are Europeans.

What would you say that for a closed competition, you can only establish records against the level of competitors that the competition is available to? So at the Euro Championships, you can at best establish a continental record, but not a world record, since you refuse to compete against all competitors of the world. For the French Nationals, you can't establish a WR or ER.


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## Jason (May 21, 2008)

I don't understand why americans should be trying to influence a decision which is effectively a european matter. Europe should be free to follow it's own road independantly of american interests. This is a European championship organised by europeans for europeans after all. Therefore any decisions should be made internally to europe, and shaped by european peers. In this case, a lot of top european cubers and organisers have the feeling of being short circuited out of the decision process, and that it was effectively in part influenced by americans in their own interest.


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## Erik (May 21, 2008)

Thank you Jason, I didn't want to say it since people might feel I'm being discriminating, but I didn't understand why other people besides Europeans try to change the way of a European Championship in the first place. 
Of course if I was American (or Japanese or whatever) I want it to be open, another big tournament I could enter! But I never had the desire to compete in French Championships for example, no matter how good the cubers are there, since there will probably be a French Open too, which will always be a bigger championship too I'd like to add.

Also I'd like to add this: since WC, I've been focussing for the next big tournament of course, the EC 08. I've had it in my mind for more than half a year now, focussed on the competitiors I would have to face for each event plus the chance I have in each event to end in the top 3 which is my goal, I'm a perfectionist (especially in cubing). Now that it's open this whole perspective of the EC changed big time.
why has this decision to make it open been made so 'silently' without checking on a big scale for the European cubers' opinion?


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## Doudou (May 21, 2008)

Erik, it is exactly the same feeling for me. 
And same for Jean, too.


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## Rama (May 21, 2008)

Tyson said:


> What if one day, 50% of the cubers in Europe are from other countries?



Marry someone with an European passport and change your passport if you want to cube so badly at the European Championship.

If I was in (let's say for example) Turkey for vacation and funny enough there is the Turkish (National Championships) during my vacation there, but I cannot compete because of my nationality, that's fine for me, because I think it's something between them.

I cannot imagine that Ron, Ton or I could compete at the German Nationals or even worse win it, just because we happen to organise (or helping organising) it.
Now some people get free or very cheap plane tickets and suddenly the always closed European Championships is ''open for everyone''.
Just call me a reactionist then.


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## tim (May 21, 2008)

rxdeath said:


> i think that the only thing that is affected is 'podium ego' and if you're the fastest euro cuber, it won't change because anyone else shows up.



Very true! I can't see any other reason for limiting the competition to Europeans either.



Erik said:


> I'm a perfectionist (especially in cubing).



Sure? Since i've seen you at the German Open, i doubt that .

btw. am i (besides Ron) the only European who wants an open tournament?


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## masterofthebass (May 21, 2008)

Jason (and Erik), This isn't a European matter. This is a *World* Cube Association event, and that pertains to all people who participate within that organization. The reason for people wanting to come to European championships, who aren't European, is to meet people. I really don't think anyone is coming over there for the sole purpose of beating Europeans. They could do that any time.

I personally wouldn't want to go to some of the other "local" Opens, for the simple fact that not everyone is there. Sadly, I didn't get to go to WC 07, but I've heard from people who went, it was a great, great thing. Plane tickets to Bilbao are insanely cheap, and would give me a similar opportunity. 

The fact that people from other continents are there, still doesn't change the fact that you are competing against other Europeans to be the best. Having a few slower Americans isn't going to change anything. 

BTW, plane tickets from Tokyo to Bilbao are about $2000 US, and I really don't think that's it's worth that much money to come and try to beat a few Europeans.


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## Erik (May 21, 2008)

I know it's a * world * event, but the * european * championship is a * european * thing, organised, competed won and lost by Europeans. I agree that's there it's the biggest event so you want to go there, but it's the european championship. The idea of Europe Open is nice but why destroy the traditional good and loved European Championship as it is now?
Heck, you can even organise the European Open if you like to have such a thing! But why bother with the European Championship...


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## ryo (May 21, 2008)

tim said:


> am i (besides Ron) the only European who wants an open tournament?



No ! But it's not the right question !
Why Americans didn't come at Montpellier Open, French Open, Nantes Open, Toulouse Open ?? 
All the french cubeurs will be happy to see them in France !
And it's the same in Spain.
Why they want to come at the Euro, if they come it's not the Euro, it's an Open, and it's good the Opens are great but there are already a lot of Opens...
I don't understand real motivation of american people in that discussion :confused:

Sorry, my english is so bad !


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## Jason (May 21, 2008)

Masterofthebass, If I follow your reasonning correctly, then the Cincinnati Spring Open 2008 is a world matter. Therefore I take it that you wouldn't object if some people here in Montpellier would be allowed to influence executive and pretty final decisions without even letting a large majority of Ohio organisers/cubers consult beforehand on the matter?


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## Doudou (May 21, 2008)

masterofthebass said:


> Jason (and Erik), This isn't a European matter. This is a *World* Cube Association event, and that pertains to all people who participate within that organization. The reason for people wanting to come to European championships, who aren't European, is to meet people. I really don't think anyone is coming over there for the sole purpose of beating Europeans. They could do that any time.
> 
> I personally wouldn't want to go to some of the other "local" Opens, for the simple fact that not everyone is there. Sadly, I didn't get to go to WC 07, but I've heard from people who went, it was a great, great thing. Plane tickets to Bilbao are insanely cheap, and would give me a similar opportunity.
> 
> ...



But we would love if you come !!! We would like to see you... And of course you are welcome... 
We just want to forbid you to compete.


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## tim (May 21, 2008)

'rio said:


> tim said:
> 
> 
> > am i (besides Ron) the only European who wants an open tournament?
> ...



More people (from Europe) => more fun.



fredqbr said:


> tim said:
> 
> 
> > btw. am i (besides Ron) the only European who wants an open tournament?
> ...



That's sad.


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## Mike Hughey (May 21, 2008)

I'm fascinated by how important this seems to be by most of the Europeans here. I have to believe if the feeling is this strong from so many of them, perhaps this is a cultural difference between Europeans and Americans. Certainly some cultural differences do exist. And since we are a world organization, we need to respect the cultural differences in different parts of the world. If some parts of the world have a cultural bias towards wanting closed competitions, I think perhaps that should be respected. Doesn't that make sense?

I think the overwhelming support for open competitions in America might have something to do with the infamous American tendency towards "rugged individualism". I would prefer that all our competitions be open, but if it's important to others to have some closed, I'm okay with it.


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## ryo (May 21, 2008)

Mike Hughey said:


> I would prefer that all our competitions be open, but if it's important to others to have some closed, I'm okay with it.


Yes, we organise more and more Open in France and no american come, we want to see you in France to compete with us and why not at Euro to talk about cube, but not to compete...


masterofthebass -> If you don't come at all the european Open because you think there will not be everyone you never meet the european cubers you don't know ! And if some americans cubers come to an Open, for example Toulouse Open, and if you say it here, there will be more european cubers who want come at the open 

An other thing : I see you don't understand why it's important for us to have an Euro with only europeans cubers but it's for this same reason if most of the european come for this competition and always for the same reason they will be less interest to come if it's an open and not "the Euro"...
Yes, it's a paradox...


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## Inusagi (May 21, 2008)

So why do we have National competitions (where only the competitors from that country can compete)?


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## rxdeath (May 21, 2008)

its is a world association, so i don't care about 'europeans' or 'americans' or any country/continental crap. there are many in favor of this being open, and if a european can't step up to the bar and compete in an open competition, then they don't deserve to win anyway. this is the best thing that's happened in the wca in a long time and look forward to a future with hopefully no closed tournaments. i mean its bad enough our daily lives are governed by all these feeble ideas of state and countries, why should it make our cubing lives have strife as well. there's no reason we can't play together all the time, except selfishness/ego.



fredqbr said:


> tim said:
> 
> 
> > btw. am i (besides Ron) the only European who wants an open tournament?
> ...



this is a travesty, tim, you're a good guy and i appreciate your openness to new and probably better ideas. fredqbr doesn't speak for all of europe *thank god* so don't let him make you feel bad, you made the right moral decision in my opinion


ron i publicly applaud the decision and your ideas, i hope my concerns didn't throw you under the bus, but i know you beleive this is best for everyone too, thanks




Doudou said:


> But we would love if you come !!! We would like to see you... And of course you are welcome...
> We just want to forbid you to compete.



so you want to win, but not compete against everyone?we should come but not compete? a victory where you exclude people from participating is no victory at all.


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## Jason (May 21, 2008)

I think Fredqbr speaks for an overwhelming majority of european cubers!!! This is not about selfishness or ego, this is about wanting to compete amongst europeans! What's so hard to understand? And it's nothing to do with national pride or chauvinism. I think you should simply respect the wishes of the overwhelming majority of european cubers. As I've already said, it's an european matter, so, rxdeath, if you're not even planning on coming, just lay off!!!


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## Cerberus (May 21, 2008)

I think there are so many Opens and the idea of having a European only competition is ok and right, because like in other sports you sometimes just want to compete with your region, like at the nationals, you go for a title that others can't earn and when you reach it or get close to it you see it clearly there are no competitors which can't go for the title.
Maybe there should be an euro closed AND open, which it bigger and give everybody the chance to compete like the german open, benelux open, lyon open etc do too, but it's organized for more events, bigger prices, more competitors, just what you hope that is better at euros than at madrid open.


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## Mike Hughey (May 21, 2008)

rxdeath said:


> its is a world association, so i don't care about 'europeans' or 'americans' or any country/continental crap. there are many in favor of this being open, and if a european can't step up to the bar and compete in an open competition, then they don't deserve to win anyway. this is the best thing that's happened in the wca in a long time and look forward to a future with hopefully no closed tournaments. i mean its bad enough our daily lives are governed by all these feeble ideas of state and countries, why should it make our cubing lives have strife as well. there's no reason we can't play together all the time, except selfishness/ego.



rxdeath, you're a classic example of an "individualist" (at least with regard to this issue):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Individualism

There's nothing wrong with having this view; I'm largely an individualist as well. But there are other opinions out there, and since "it is a world assocation", I think we should care about each other's points of view. It's true that there are many in favor of this being open, but it's also true that there are many against it being open. It seems to me that you are attempting to force other parts of the world to go against their own cultural bias in order to follow yours. Even though it may be counterintuitive to your point of view, it doesn't seem like such an effort is very "world-minded" to me.

I think if a significant majority of Europeans want this closed, it should be closed. It's the culturally respectful thing to do.

And I hope that most if not all American competitions will stay open, since that's my preference.


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## debase (May 21, 2008)

Same feeling as Erik and Edouard, I DONT WANT THIS EUROPEAN CHAMPIONSHIP OPEN

Jean Pons


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## Rama (May 21, 2008)

I started practising OH again to race against Gunnar Krig and Milán Baticz for the European title, but now there won't be an European title.


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## Doudou (May 21, 2008)

Mike... You are american and can still understand an another point of view... 
You're intelligent... 
I totally admit that you (americans) prefer an US Open/Championnship, and I respect it. But I don't want it here.


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## rxdeath (May 21, 2008)

Jason said:


> I think Fredqbr speaks for an overwhelming majority of european cubers!!! This is not about selfishness or ego, this is about wanting to compete amongst europeans! What's so hard to understand? And it's nothing to do with national pride or chauvinism. I think you should simply respect the wishes of the overwhelming majority of european cubers. As I've already said, it's an european matter, so, rxdeath, if you're not even planning on coming, just lay off!!!



lol i about care what you tell me to do. this is important enough to **** people off, its not just me, i don't run the decisions process, i voiced a concern and it was agreed with. everyone should get to compete everywhere, its not a matter of euro vs. USA or anything like that. i actually like the idea of someone as a punishment for closed tourneys, if you have a closed one, none of the times should count in the wca database. if you're not willing to compete against the world, then your times shouldn't affect the rest of us if you have some elitist competition.

cubers from other continents don't influence your ability to cube against europeans, unless you have some feeble construct built in your mind to make it that way. besides glory/ego reasons no one has offered one good reason why any human being should be excluded from anything, so that's why i'm confident that this is the right decision. we're here to discuss it and plan on contributing until the discussion is over.




Doudou said:


> Mike... You are american and can still understand an another point of view...
> You're intelligent...
> I totally admit that you (americans) prefer an US Open/Championnship, and I respect it. But I don't want it here.



many of us that think it should be open are intelligent also . i understand your point of view, but believe it is wrong because you exclude people, and it should be stopped.


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## Tyson (May 21, 2008)

Want to just get rid of national designations then?


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## Erik (May 21, 2008)

Mike Hughey said:


> Certainly some cultural differences do exist. And since we are a world organization, we need to respect the cultural differences in different parts of the world. If some parts of the world have a cultural bias towards wanting closed competitions, I think perhaps that should be respected. Doesn't that make sense?



Thank's Mike, you managed to explain something which some of us including me failed to do here I think.

What I don't understand either is why the American's keep compairing US Open/Nationals to Europe (Open), US Open is from one country after all, while Europe is a continent. As far as I know there has never been such a thing as a North-American Championship am I right?

Maybe we will seriously hold our own European Championship if it doesn't change back.. maybe in America... (Holland)


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## Tyson (May 21, 2008)

But the same could be said the other way around. The United States does not hold closed competitions because it would simply take away an opportunity from many people who live in the United States but are from other countries. Shouldn't these same type of people in Europe also be respected?


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## rxdeath (May 21, 2008)

Erik said:


> Mike Hughey said:
> 
> 
> > Certainly some cultural differences do exist. And since we are a world organization, we need to respect the cultural differences in different parts of the world. If some parts of the world have a cultural bias towards wanting closed competitions, I think perhaps that should be respected. Doesn't that make sense?
> ...



it doesn't make sense when others suffer because of it. closed competitions aren't fair to everyone.

if there is a closed competition i seriously think that none of the times should count, if you aren't competing against the world, then your times shouldn't go in the world database.


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## Tyson (May 21, 2008)

I am also confused when people talk of tradition in terms of cubing when the sport is only 4-year-old.


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## Doudou (May 21, 2008)

Tyson, hear me. And try to understand. 
Imagine a person who lives near Bilbao, and who wants to go to a competition. 
There were already 3 competitions in Spain this year. There was also Montpellier Open, and will be Toulouse Open. At least 3 competitions were less than 500 km from his house.
He can go. It's not like if he could not. 

You are living in a big country. Please, try to understand. It's very important for us.


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## rxdeath (May 21, 2008)

Doudou said:


> Tyson, hear me. And try to understand.
> Imagine a person who lives near Bilbao, and who wants to go to a competition.
> There were already 3 competitions in Spain this year. There was also Montpellier Open, and will be Toulouse Open. At least 3 competitions were less than 500 km from his house.
> He can go. It's not like if he could not.
> ...



european union is just as easy to get around as the united states, you guys have as many if not more competitions that we do. if that person wants to go to the competition, they have nothing stopping them going. you think we don't understand, but we understand perfectly, its that we don't agree.


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## Tyson (May 21, 2008)

But there is a major experience associated with a large tournament. EC will draw competitors from all around Europe. This atmosphere is unmatched by any other tournament you could possibly hold.

And so by holding a closed competition, you exclude these people from this experience. Why can't you simply separate the processes of the Europeans from everyone else in your mind, and pitch it that way to the press? Nationality is really a subjective mental fabrication of the human mind. If you can see yourself as being French, you can see yourself as being European Champion.

No foreigner I think would really be adamant about sharing podium time should he win. You can have the same glory as everyone else, and stand on the podium all by yourself with your European colleagues. And honestly, I would like the opportunity to applaud you in your efforts.

But is it such a horrible thing to grant a few solves to a visitor? You can have everything you want, and everything you talk about. I personally would be willing to validate your status as the European Champion for 2008, but not at the expense of others.

You can keep your glory, but at least share the atmosphere. No one can take away your accomplishments unless you let them.


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## Tyson (May 21, 2008)

Edouard,

You make it seem like people all over the world are after your prize money and your medals and your spot on the podium.

Really, we just want to share a glass of wine. Or two. (Or half... for some people.)


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## AvGalen (May 21, 2008)

Wow, a lot of discussion and heavy debating is going on in here. I was also very surprised when I found out that the European Championship changed to a European Open and have very mixed feelings about this.

I really like the idea of having a (Dutch) National Championship, a European Championship, a World Championship and as many Open tournaments (Dutch Open, Twente Open, Benelux Open, Europe Open or even Amsterdam Winter/Spring/Summer/Autumn Opens)

The thing is that Europe was planned to be a closed Championship and was changed to an Open Championship. Had it been an Open from the start all this discussion wouldn't have happened. People had expectations and changing them is a big step.

So just to be clear: I hope this will be changed back to a Closed Championship and that a Europe Open will also be organised. In reality, I don't think that a Europe Open will be organised this year. However, many Open Europeans have already been organised and many more will be organised.

P.S.1: How many "non-Europeans" are really planning to come to Bilbao?
P.S.2: How many "non-Europeans" have already come to any of the Open European tournaments that have been organised so far?


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## Erik (May 21, 2008)

Thanks for trying to further expressing what I feel too and which I apparently didn't make clear yet Arnaud!

Sure we can share the atmosphere come! But don't compete. For that make a * seperate Europe Open * and not instead *throw away the EC* and try to change the way we do things and how it was planned in the first place (especially with a decision which is make too quick or without checking for the general opinion in a long enough period in advance!). This way we respect both parties and both goals will be mostly satisfied...
The great atmosphere will be there (better than the other EC since more people), it'll be bigger than any other tournaments, we still have our inbetween fight in the EC which we like and want to keep as you see, we won't whine about any non-european coming to the Open since it's for that purpose.
It's not that bad that there are closed competitions where the winner gets the title of the best cuber of that region. And if you think it is bad, why not respect the wishes of the people from here, how bad they might look to you. (this is not specificly addressed to Tyson)


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## shelley (May 21, 2008)

I honestly don't see what this huge fuss is about. "Destroying" the championship? It's not like an army of American and Asian cubers is planning to go over there and beat everyone because the EC is now open. In fact, many American cubers are students and can't afford a few hundred dollars for a plane ticket to Europe anyway.

This is great news for non European citizens who either are living in Europe or just happen to be in the area when the tournament takes place. Wouldn't you agree that it would be a shame not to let them compete just because of where they were born?


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## Doudou (May 21, 2008)

Still agree with Erik and Arnoud.


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## rxdeath (May 21, 2008)

AvGalen said:


> Wow, a lot of discussion and heavy debating is going on in here. I was also very surprised when I found out that the European Championship changed to a European Open and have very mixed feelings about this.
> 
> I really like the idea of having a (Dutch) National Championship, a European Championship, a World Championship and as many Open tournaments (Dutch Open, Twente Open, Benelux Open, Europe Open or even Amsterdam Winter/Spring/Summer/Autumn Opens)
> 
> ...



i hope it won't be changed back, this is the correct decision, expectations are irrelevent as well as ps 1 and ps2, the only relevance is fairness. i want to come and will probably be in the area at that time. other tournaments don't have the appeal of this competition, so why rob anyone of the opportunity. 

the focus is reasoning...if there is even one non-ego driven reason for this to be closed i'd love to hear it. people say its about competing against other europeans, but you still can do that so that argument is null. you can still have whatever silly title is handed out. you can have your special podium time where every claps because your so good. what's missing?



Erik said:


> Thanks for trying to further expressing what I feel too and which I apparently didn't make clear yet Arnaud!
> 
> Sure we can share the atmosphere come! But don't compete. For that make a * seperate Europe Open * and not instead *throw away the EC* and try to change the way we do things and how it was planned in the first place (especially with a decision which is make too quick or without checking for the general opinion in a long enough period in advance!). This way we respect both parties and both goals will be mostly satisfied...
> The great atmosphere will be there (better than the other EC since more people), it'll be bigger than any other tournaments, we still have our inbetween fight in the EC which we like and want to keep as you see, we won't whine about any non-european coming to the Open since it's for that purpose.
> It's not that bad that there are closed competitions where the winner gets the title of the best cuber of that region. And if you think it is bad, why not respect the wishes of the people from here, how bad they might look to you. (this is not specificly addressed to Tyson)




this is just selfish, everyone should get to compete. this is all just ego/glory/tradition reasoning. nothing concrete as to why anyone isn't important enough to compete in the competition. it is bad that there are closed competition, and i'm glad i'm fighting to kill them permanently. if people think less of me for this then i don't care because i believe i'm doing the right thing for the WORLD community


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## Worms (May 21, 2008)

I'm sorry but Doudou, Erik, Jean, Rama, Frederick... are wrong

Everybody knows that europe is this :






Now seriously, that's not logic that non-european people could compete in an european championship...


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## Karthik (May 21, 2008)

Erik said:


> Sure we can share the atmosphere come! But don't compete.


Oh come on!How can you invite some one to a cubing competition and ask them not to compete?!
Isn't that against the whole spirit of WCA and it's goals?
I am still confused about whether WCA competitions should be open or closed, but no offense Erik, I think it is very rude to invite someone and ask them not to compete.


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## rxdeath (May 21, 2008)

thanks for your extremely intelligent post, it really helps contribute to the discussion.



Worms said:


> I'm sorry but Doudou, Erik, Jean, Rama, Frederit... are wrong
> 
> Everybody knows that europe is this :
> 
> ...


----------



## AvGalen (May 21, 2008)

I think a lot of this "huge fuss" is because Europeans don't really feel European yet.

Maybe a small (and not very good) history lesson would explain something?

I am only 31 years old, but when I was young our neighboring country (Germany) was our former enemy (worldwar I and II) that we were starting to trust again. The European Union was only a couple of Western European countries.

A decade later the European Union was basically Western Europe, but Eastern Europe (the other side of the Iron curtain) was still considered a threat.

Another decade later the cold war was over, Germany was united again and the European Union had grown way beyond an economic cooperation.

At this moment (another decade later) the EU has a lot of legislative power, travelling is basically unrestricted, working in other countries is starting to get unrestricted and we have a common currency (not everywhere (yet))

Europe is 1 entity is still building and expanding and European Championships help us realize this. Through all these decades, people have had National, European and World Championships in every sport and we like that very much. We also like big international tournaments, global competitions and the Olympics.

(I am not a historian. Please don't start nitpicking on details)



> expectations are irrelevent


No they are not!


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## shelley (May 21, 2008)

Karthik said:


> Erik said:
> 
> 
> > Sure we can share the atmosphere come! But don't compete.
> ...



Yeah, it's like inviting someone to your birthday party and not letting him have cake.


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## Doudou (May 21, 2008)

Yes Arnoud ! We like it ! We want it !

Just after a such conversation i feel more european... 

Shelley : It depends on who cooked the cake...


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## Erik (May 21, 2008)

It'd be more like a birthday party with guys from your footballclub when other friends (also friends!) of your chessclub want to come in instead of going to the main party for all friends.


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## shelley (May 21, 2008)

AvGalen said:


> P.S.2: How many "non-Europeans" have already come to any of the Open European tournaments that have been organised so far?



Once again proving I way too much free time at work,

Dror Vomberg, Israel, Europe 2004
Jorge Best, Mexico, Dutch Open 2004
Shelley Chang, USA, UK Open 2006
Cho Won-Bang, Korea, UK Open 2006
Jasmine Lee, Australia, UK Open 2006
Dave Litwin, USA, Dutch Open 2007
Brent Morgan, USA, Italian Open 2007
Maria Oey, Indonesia, several
Lee Chieh, Taiwan, UK Open 2007
Lee Kang, Taiwan, UK Open 2007
Jessica Ellison, Australia, UK Open 2007
Monir Amerkhous, Morocco, French Open 2008

This is only after a cursory survey and I probably missed a few.



AvGalen said:


> I think a lot of this "huge fuss" is because Europeans don't really feel European yet.
> [...]
> Europe is 1 entity is still building and expanding and European Championships help us realize this. Through all these decades, people have had National, European and World Championships in every sport and we like that very much. We also like big international tournaments, global competitions and the Olympics.



Can't we leave the politics out of this? In the grand scheme of things, we're just people who can manipulate a plastic toy really fast. I don't see how the presence of a few non-Europeans at a competition will threaten your identity as citizens of a unified Europe.


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## jazzthief81 (May 21, 2008)

shelley said:


> I honestly don't see what this huge fuss is about. "Destroying" the championship? It's not like an army of American and Asian cubers is planning to go over there and beat everyone because the EC is now open. In fact, many American cubers are students and can't afford a few hundred dollars for a plane ticket to Europe anyway.
> 
> This is great news for non European citizens who either are living in Europe or just happen to be in the area when the tournament takes place. Wouldn't you agree that it would be a shame not to let them compete just because of where they were born?



I'm with her. Just cool down and get on with your life. It's almost certain that this is not going to have _any_ effect on how the championship is going to turn out eventually. Afterwards you'll all look back on this and think how silly it was that you got wound up over it in the first place. 

Let's not ruin the atmosphere of what promises to be a great tournament.


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## shelley (May 21, 2008)

Erik said:


> It'd be more like a birthday party with guys from your footballclub when other friends (also friends!) of your chessclub want to come in instead of going to the main party for all friends.



No, they would be crashing the party, and I would see why you wouldn't offer them cake. But if you *invited* them and then didn't let them have cake, that's kind of mean.


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## rxdeath (May 21, 2008)

AvGalen said:


> I think a lot of this "huge fuss" is because Europeans don't really feel European yet.
> 
> Maybe a small (and not very good) history lesson would explain something?
> 
> ...




in the spirit of this, doesn't it open the very kind of divide you're saying your celebrating overcoming? expectations are irrelevant compared to fairness and equal opportunity. i appreciate the harmony that the EU has attained and is working for, but believe to use it as a reason to block other people from participating in a worldwide club event is a travesty and insults the achievement. this has no impact on whether or not its unfair to discriminate.


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## rubikaz (May 21, 2008)

shelley said:


> AvGalen said:
> 
> 
> > P.S.2: How many "non-Europeans" have already come to any of the Open European tournaments that have been organised so far?
> ...



You have to add at Least Gabriel Eduardo Nuñez, Argentina: Madrid Open 2008 and Barcelona Open 2008


I agree with Edouard, Eric, etc and I am not going to win nothing...


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## Inusagi (May 21, 2008)

I got to say, that I totally agree with Tyson. The only thing you guys that want a close EC have mentioned so far, is that you'll get beat (not directly). There will not be any difference if there are some non Europe people there, then the rank. And who cares about your rank? I mean, if you are saying that you don't care about ranks, then say why you don't want an open.


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## Erik (May 21, 2008)

shelley said:


> Erik said:
> 
> 
> > It'd be more like a birthday party with guys from your footballclub when other friends (also friends!) of your chessclub want to come in instead of going to the main party for all friends.
> ...



I didn't invite them in the first place. They wanted to come in to the party, and since I'm polite I let them in, but I don't give them cake so the guys who were invited in the first place don't get less cake, I give them a cookie.


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## rxdeath (May 21, 2008)

rubikaz said:


> I agree with Edouard, Eric, etc and I am not going to win nothing...




do you have any ideas to back up your opinion, or are you just jumping on the bandwagon with 2 popular euro cubers?



Erik said:


> It'd be more like a birthday party with guys from your footballclub when other friends (also friends!) of your chessclub want to come in instead of going to the main party for all friends..



i'd just invite all my friends all the time


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## Erik (May 21, 2008)

I mostly have 2 different parties. One where my family etc comes and one with friends or whatever.
*e*dit btw.. does it matter in this case how I usually hold my parties?


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## rubikaz (May 21, 2008)

rxdeath said:


> rubikaz said:
> 
> 
> > I agree with Edouard, Eric, etc and I am not going to win nothing...
> ...




*Maybe* I have more ideas than you will have in all your life. Do you know me? If not, please, don't speak to me in this way.


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## Tyson (May 21, 2008)

I really don't see how his asking if you have any ideas was really as insulting as your response. Merely, you agreed, but you didn't give any reasons for it.

Can you present your line of reasoning?


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## rxdeath (May 21, 2008)

you didn't add to the discussion at all you said: 'i agree with blah blah' and didn't provide any reasoning so its fair to assume you didn't really think about it, otherwise you'd have some useful input instead of stating your jumping on someone's bandwagon, if you had an idea, please share it. sorry if my words don't sound pretty, i'm very direct.

erik: you said two different parties for different friends originally, which is what i responded to, but in your new post you say 1 party for friends, which i think is how cubing tourneys should be.


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## Erik (May 21, 2008)

rxdeath said:


> erik: you said two different parties for different friends originally, which is what i responded to, but in your new post you say 1 party for friends, which i think is how cubing tourneys should be.



You really frustrate me with this since I think you perfectly understand what I ment (I could be wrong..) ... what if I want to hold seperate parties for different type of people, I only used the term family to show the difference in types of friends and why the parties aren't hold at the same time in one party, I still love them all... and besides, why change the way of how I hold my party...

btw: 'the bandwagon with 2 popular euro cubers' is kinda disrespectfull and this phrase also tries to show things different from what they are. It's not just Edouard and me, there are loads of others who think the same way.


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## Worms (May 21, 2008)

rxdeath said:


> thanks for your extremely intelligent post, it really helps contribute to the discussion.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thank you very much, I'm very happy that somebody could understand my sarcasm


----------



## Karthik (May 21, 2008)

Erik said:


> why change the way of how I hold my party...


 It is only your fourth birthday dear.


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## Erik (May 21, 2008)

Worms that's not really funny imho, this is a serious discussion...

adding to my previous post:
I also checked among my classmates what they thought and also some adults and they think too that this idea is weird. And before you are going to tell me how many people you know agree with your opinion too, I think that on this discussion the opinion of European people is more important since it's their culture/tradition/usage/but especially continent, which other people are trying to change (and have already accomplished apparently without us knowing)...
I would never dare to go to somewhere see something being done differently (for example eat their breakfast with no fat at all(which is bad)) and tell them to do otherwise.

p.s. at Karthik: I don't understand what you mean sorry..


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## rxdeath (May 21, 2008)

Worms said:


> an people could compete in an european championship...


Thank you very much, I'm very happy that somebody could understand my sarcasm 

if you were implying (someway i didn't understand) that you actually disagree with closed competitions, then i'm sorry i misinterpreted your post.,but its still hardly helpful just as rubikas wasn't helpful either.

erik: since you and doudou are spearheading the effort i said '2' but someone that just says 'i agree' and doesn't give a reason deserves to be questioned. 

i didn't understand and family/friends 'party' (although i don't know where we're going with this analogy) makes sense, but different parties for different people is absurd. if you want to have your parties this way great, but you aren't a worldwide organization. (i still think you should invite everyone, but its your party)

to say euro opinions matter more than others is a joke and i won't waste my time explaining (once again) how this is an international organization. euros aren't better than us, as we aren't better than them, all opinions are equal, any other opinion is elitist crap.

you act as though you own the EC and i messed with your property. i didn't, and its not yours, its every cuber in the worlds equally.


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## Tyson (May 21, 2008)

You talk about this competition as if you were running it. How much are you involved with the organizational team?


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## Ewks (May 21, 2008)

I don't really have an oppinion about weather the comp. should be open or not. But I have to say that I see AvGalen's point in his post on European history, having European Championships in about every sport is a part of our culture and you should respect that. We don't come and insult your cultural differences from us.
Should Europeans just invite others than Europeans to compete for example in European song contest or in our other sport Championships just because those foreing people want us to.
And to rxdeath if you want to be intelligent the first step is to try to respect other peoples oppinions and cultures even if the differ from your's.


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## Erik (May 21, 2008)

so if you don't wanna change my party why do you wanna change the way the EC is held? It's still our *European* championship. We can't vote who is US president either can we (even if he is so powerfull as he is..)?


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## rxdeath (May 21, 2008)

Erik said:


> so if you don't wanna change my party why do you wanna change the way the EC is held? It's still our *European* championship. We can't vote who is US president either can we (even if he is so powerful as he is..)?



its not yours. every competition is every cubers. and as i said, your not an international organization. i would want you to change your party but if you want to exclude people its YOUR party, unlike this competition.

Ewks: i am quite intelligent already, and understand/respect is quite different that disagreeing. i understand and respect the other side, but believe it is wrong, so i fight against it. you disrespect me by implying i'm dumb because i don't agree with you, but i don't care what you say about me personally because i still have heard no concrete reason that this decsion wasn't the best.


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## Karthik (May 21, 2008)

Erik said:


> why change the way of how I hold my party...





Erik said:


> p.s. at Karthik: I don't understand what you mean sorry..


Well, my interpretation of that statement was that you insisted on not changing the way things are done right now.I said that we have been doing things this way for not more than 4 years.So it is not too late to change and do things the right way.


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## Ewks (May 21, 2008)

rxdeath you just showed a good examble of people thinking differently in different parts of world. You as an american think this idea of two different partys is absurd, because you have been raised and have lived in environment where people don't do that and Erik as an european does that because he was raised and has lived in an environment where this is normal and not at all absurd.


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## Bryan (May 21, 2008)

Erik said:


> What I don't understand either is why the American's keep compairing US Open/Nationals to Europe (Open), US Open is from one country after all, while Europe is a continent.



Because they're about the same size?


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## rxdeath (May 21, 2008)

Ewks said:


> rxdeath you just showed a good examble of people thinking differently in different parts of world. You as an american think this idea of two different partys is absurd, because you have been raised and have lived in environment where people don't do that and Erik as an european does that because he was raised and has lived in an environment where this is normal and not at all absurd.




where did i say its absurd? i doubt you have a clue what i think, so please don't put words in my mouth. he can do what he wants because eriks birthday isn't an international club sponsored event. i said i wouldn't do it that way, but i never disrespected the idea, and this analogy is worthless to what we're talking about.

does anyone have any concrete real ideas as to why this bad besides ego/tradition/glory bs, we keep losing focus...

for the record, this is about ALL competitions to me, not just euros 2008, if some people think that


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## Ewks (May 21, 2008)

rxdeath said:


> Ewks: i am quite intelligent already, and understand/respect is quite different that disagreeing. i understand and respect the other side, but believe it is wrong, so i fight against it. you disrespect me by implying i'm dumb because i don't agree with you, but i don't care what you say about me personally because i still have heard no concrete reason that this decsion wasn't the best.



You can not say that you respect someone's oppinion and still say that their oppinion is wrong. There are no right or wrong oppinnions.And I don't expect you to care about my oppinnion about you personally 'cause I do not know you. Actually I don't even care about you personally I only think that you are being disrespectful and rude.


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## Ewks (May 21, 2008)

rxdeath said:


> where did i say its absurd? i doubt you have a clue what i think, so please don't put words in my mouth. he can do what he wants because eriks birthday isn't an international club sponsored event. i said i wouldn't do it that way, but i never disrespected the idea, and this analogy is worthless to what we're talking about.



My point only was that you would do it differently. it does not matter how you said it only that you said that you wouldn't do it the way Erik would.


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## rxdeath (May 21, 2008)

Ewks said:


> rxdeath said:
> 
> 
> > Ewks: i am quite intelligent already, and understand/respect is quite different that disagreeing. i understand and respect the other side, but believe it is wrong, so i fight against it. you disrespect me by implying i'm dumb because i don't agree with you, but i don't care what you say about me personally because i still have heard no concrete reason that this decsion wasn't the best.
> ...



i have stated 'in my opinion' 'i think' etc many times, if i left it off here and there then boo hoo, but i figured everyone was smart enough to know everything i say is my opinion. i didn't know you wrote the rules on opinions and respect, forward me the pdf, and i'll take a look.

now do you have anything of value to contribute or do you just want to pick at me since i'm spearheading the effort?


----------



## Erik (May 21, 2008)

this discussion about wether open or closed is not going anywhere now. I tried to find a solution but apparently nobody seemed to think about it. Hope you will find this satisfying...
As far as it is now there are some possibilities, lets look at them, I tried and hopefull explained this purely analyzing what I've seen. I did this since the way things were decided now are weird to me and should be reajusted

1. nothing changes, it will be open: result loads of angry European people, but everyone can compete. Further possible results: there will be a non-recognized EC held by European people for European people, which again non-european people won't like.
2. they change it back to closed: result happy European people, angry (mostly) Americans, not everyone can compete
3. This tournament will be open plust there is also a European open in the future (or vice versa): result, Europeans happy, everyone can compete, (mostly) Americans happy plus some with 'still not satisfied because there is still a closed tournament somewhere in the world' thoughts.

I'd say with option 3 there will be the most people happy. Plus after this solution we can calmly discuss what to do further with this subject.


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## Worms (May 21, 2008)

Erik said:


> Worms that's not really funny imho, this is a serious discussion...




It is not necessary that the humor is graceful. The sarcasm and the irony are something serious, They comes from the poetry as literary resource and they have adapted in a long process to the colloquial speech, if you do not understand it to the language of the street, in the rest something serious is not anything not funny because graceful and serious have not been ever total linguistically antonyms


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## rubikaz (May 21, 2008)

First: I have told maybe, I have not told you that I have more ideas.

The main ideas about why it should be closed have been said here so I think that I didn't have to say the same things again. But...



rxdeath said:


> i think that the only thing that is affected is 'podium ego' and if you're the fastest euro cuber, it won't change because anyone else shows up.



With my post I wanted to say: it is not true, I think as them but my podium ego is not affected so not only Europe top think, for example Im not an european top and I think as them.

The name is European Championship, not European Open. If you want a competition with people of all world, wait a year till next World Championship or call it World Championship. We can organize a European Championship and a World Championship the same year...

I can say several things but I think that it is enough with the previous posts of other guys. Each one has an opinion and it is very difficult to get that some of us (european and not european) change it so I dont want to have a long discussion (if I have to do it, I prefer do it in Spanish) :confused:


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## rxdeath (May 21, 2008)

Erik said:


> this discussion about wether open or closed is not going anywhere now. I tried to find a solution but apparently nobody seemed to think about it. Hope you will find this satisfying...
> As far as it is now there are some possibilities, lets look at them, I tried and hopefull explained this purely analyzing what I've seen. I did this since the way things were decided now are weird to me and should be reajusted
> 
> 1. nothing changes, it will be open: result loads of angry European people, but everyone can compete. Further possible results: there will be a non-recognized EC held by European people for European people, which again non-european people won't like.
> ...



1. i think its sad that people would be so selfish as to try and make a rift in the WCA over this. one of Kasparov's great regrets was his feud with FIDE, and openly admitted it hurt the sport over his ego.

2. i don't think 'feelings' matter as much as 'fairness'

3. have them both and make them both open, we can compete more!


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## Ewks (May 21, 2008)

I agree with you Erik about option 3. And I will now stop posting to this topic before there is something I really like to disscus about. I don't think that we can change the fact that this EC is going to be at this point closed but I think that those who are thinking of organising the next really big european competition will remember this topic and make the decition of it being open or closed based on Europeans oppinions on this matter.


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## shelley (May 21, 2008)

Why would loads of European people be angry just because a few non-Europeans get to compete? How many foreigners do you expect will actually come to the competition? Clancy, Tyson and I have been pretty vocal about the issue, but it's just about the principle. I'm not even planning to go, and chances are they aren't either. Europe is a long and expensive trip for something that's not on the level of a world championship.

Option 3 might make tournament organizers unhappy. It would make people who have to travel a second time unhappy. Do you know how much time, work and money goes into organizing a big tournament like that? With option 3 they have to organize another one just because you guys are so insistent on having a closed competition. I don't think open vs. closed will even make a big difference, unless Yu Nakajima decides to fly over there and kick everyone's ass. You'll have maybe five non-European competitors and then you'll realize this whole argument is completely silly.


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## rxdeath (May 21, 2008)

Ewks said:


> I agree with you Erik about option 3. And I will now stop posting to this topic before there is something I really like to disscus about. I don't think that we can change the fact that this EC is going to be at this point closed but I think that those who are thinking of organising the next really big european competition will remember this topic and make the decition of it being open or closed based on Europeans oppinions on this matter.



it will be the cubing community as a whole, not just europeans, quit being elitist. i hope they implement the exclusion of times of any closed competitions in the wca database, that would be 'fair' because if if you're not letting others have the chance to set records and due good times, your times shouldn't be allowed either.

despite everything, no one has told me all openess is unfair to some, or how closed is fair to all, does anyone have this useful input for the opposing view?


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## Erik (May 21, 2008)

I'd be happy to help with the organisation myself and I think Edouard and Rama will probably too.

Rxdeath: why be so stubborn now? Don't you like option 3? Maybe after we had one year of both we think: 'hey that open Europe is cool lets always do that'. Maybe you are ahead of our time and we are too slow to realize that, but untill now please try to find a solution which makes us both as happy as possible. Oh and I don't give a **** if the times at the EC would not be in the WCA database, there are enough tournaments to set PB's at.


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## Tyson (May 21, 2008)

PCA vs. FIDE. We should learn from history that a split like that would likely be the end of organized cubing.


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## Karthik (May 21, 2008)

You want to spent a whole lot of time, energy and money to organize another large scale competition just because you don't want foreigners to compete in the current competition?
How rational is that?


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## rxdeath (May 21, 2008)

Erik said:


> I'd be happy to help with the organisation myself and I think Edouard and Rama will probably too.
> 
> Rxdeath: why be so stubborn now? Don't you like option 3? Maybe after we had one year of both we think: 'hey that open Europe is cool lets always do that'. Maybe you are ahead of our time and we are too slow to realize that, but untill now please try to find a solution which makes us both as happy as possible. Oh and I don't give a **** if the times at the EC would not be in the WCA database, there are enough tournaments to set PB's at.



because i think i'm right, if i didn't i wouldn't be working to abolish closed competitions. no one is pointing at the issue, there is no reason why all open comps isn't fair to everyone, and why closed is unfair, unless someone has a good reason, then i fail to see why this argument continues, when its shown that 'fairness' is acheived by open for all. i'd like option 3 if both were open . i don't think i'm better or ahead of my time, i think i have a viewpoint, i've backed it up with facts, and no one has presented anything to make me think i'm mistaken.


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## Erik (May 21, 2008)

Tyson said:


> PCA vs. FIDE. We should learn from history that a split like that would likely be the end of organized cubing.



Yes we don't want that, but splits only occur when people are dissatisfied with the way things are atm, plus I didn't mention anything about or saw anything about a new organisation.. (btw, in Darts the split is quite ok, not that I want a split, just want to show another side of the story...)

Could you instead also give your opinion about my option number 3?
And * to all against #3* please come with a better solution! So far as I've seen I'm the only one who actually tried to find a solution in this mess instead of trying the other partie convince their point is right!


----------



## AvGalen (May 21, 2008)

I am missing some background information to really understand what is going on.
Has there been a thread that explains why the EC was moved from Poland to Spain?
And has there been a thread that explains more about the decision to switch from a EC to a EO?

I would really like to meet as many cubers as possible, not just at a EO, but also at many other tournaments.
I would also like to have the experience and feel of a EC.
I think Lars is right and that we will have an EC with just a couple (or maybe non at all) of non-Europeans present.


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## nicoJ (May 21, 2008)

i agree with rubikaz

if one year there's a WChampionship, and the next is Continental Championship, why do we have to turn up this EC in a WC (that IS for ODD years), and now we are in a year for EC
if you want to do a E Open, then we can just call it OPEN
like French Open, German Open... etc, and also make it longer and bigger

but for this... i think it HAS TO BE just for European people, and i'm sorry for the American People i wanted to know and i wont


----------



## rxdeath (May 21, 2008)

Erik said:


> Tyson said:
> 
> 
> > PCA vs. FIDE. We should learn from history that a split like that would likely be the end of organized cubing.
> ...



the best solution has been reached. seriously HOW IS IT NOT FAIR. that's really the only question i'm interested in hearing an response to, everything else is pointless.

avgalen: its still euro championships, but now you get to hang out with international cubers too! a separate competition would be a joke, and quite a bit of effort to organize something unfair. the EC won't loose any appeal or experience, unless you let it


----------



## shelley (May 21, 2008)

Erik, you want a better solution? How about just calming down and letting the competition proceed as planned? Chances are only a few non-Europeans will show up anyway. What's the problem you're getting so worked up over?


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## shelley (May 21, 2008)

nicoJ Kupfer said:


> i agree with rubikaz
> 
> if one year there's a WChampionship, and the next is Continental Championship, why do we have to turn up this EC in a WC (that IS for ODD years), and now we are in a year for EC
> if you want to do a E Open, then we can just call it OPEN
> ...



Making the European Championships open does not mean turning it into the World Championships. Get that into your head. If some non-European citizens happen to be in the area, *what's wrong with letting them compete?*


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## Inusagi (May 21, 2008)

I don't understand number 1, Erik. You said European people will be angry, but why should European people be angry at all? If you see an Asian guy there, then you could choose to not talk to him. The only difference is the haircolour and skin colour. You could just get a bad place in this competition, that is all. Is there anything else you don't like? If there's not, then it should be an open. God created us all like people, we're all the same.

By the way, I am European.


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## Erik (May 21, 2008)

If proceed is the best solution then what's wrong in my logic analysing in the 3 options? 
You think to have a lot of europeans sad is the best option? Why force us to try something new instead of give us the chance to experience both option Open and option Closed?

Plus, what I'm getting worked up for, besides the fact that we are forced to change, is also for that facts Arnaud questioned, there has been little to no clarification about the changes, not to mention to check if we all agree on it at all.

And Inusagi: haven't you read other Europeans' opinion in this thread so far?
And Shelly: there will probably be another tournament but this time Open very soon before or after it, after all why want to compete so hard in the tournaments you can't enter? Maybe because 'the grass on the other side always seems greener'??

What you are doing is (how I see it) nothing more than just wanting the thing you want and not think about a better solution where more people will be happy. (Even though I think Europeans should be the ones who decide this since it's their competition)


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## Tyson (May 21, 2008)

Again, this isn't because it's the European Championships. We would be having the same discussion if it was "The Adam Zamora Invitational."


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## rxdeath (May 21, 2008)

Erik said:


> If proceed is the best solution then what's wrong in my logic analysing in the 3 options?
> You think to have a lot of europeans sad is the best option? Why force us to try something new instead of give us the chance to experience both option Open and option Closed?
> 
> Plus, what I'm getting worked up for, besides the fact that we are forced to change, is also for that facts Arnaud questioned, there has been little to no clarification about the changes, not to mention to check if we all agree on it at all.
> ...



erik: tell me how open for all isn't fair. tell me how closed competitions aren't unfair. all this sadness boohoo drivel is pointless, seriously, its obvious closed comps are unfair, if that makes some people sad, who cares? also, who needs to agree on fairness, its obvious and irrefutable. equal conditions for everyone to compete is easy to see.

the grass is greener on both sides when we take down the fence


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## shelley (May 21, 2008)

Erik said:


> If proceed is the best solution then what's wrong in my logic analysing in the 3 options?
> You think to have a lot of europeans sad is the best option? Why force us to try something new instead of give us the chance to experience both option Open and option Closed?
> 
> Plus, what I'm getting worked up for, besides the fact that we are forced to change, is also for that facts Arnaud questioned, there has been little to no clarification about the changes, not to mention to check if we all agree on it at all.
> ...



Again, how many foreigners do you expect to show up at the European Championships now that it's open? Will it really be that much of a change? Is it really worth spending the time and money to organize a second closed tournament just to exclude them?

If you don't agree with the decisions made by the competition organizers, don't participate. Simple as that. You can organize your own tournament if you don't like the way things are done.


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## Erik (May 21, 2008)

Tyson: no we wouldn't, Europe is one of the very few (if not the only) things I'd like a closed competition for since we like to have championships for that

It's totally irrelevant how many people actually will come, it's about the possibility that other people can win it, etc. 

It's frustrating people still want to change ways they are and say why not let it be as it is, since as far as we know the decision was made not very long ago and can be made undone no problem. 

It's still annoying to hear the same things over and over without new solutions because apparently you don't want to see that there is a problem at all...

It's time consuming to post here over and over again, but as long as there are no results at all (i.e. more info (see Arnauds message), more respect for the fact that we like it how it was even though others think not (see Mike's message), better ideas (see my message with options)) I have no other option than to keep posting.


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## Stefan (May 21, 2008)

Doudou said:


> people against the Euro (the great one, not the bilbao Open) are only non-european people


Wrong. I'm "European" and against the closed version.

(Don't know where this thread went, I stopped reading around message 80...)


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## rxdeath (May 21, 2008)

Erik said:


> Tyson: no we wouldn't, Europe is one of the very few (if not the only) things I'd like a closed competition for since we like to have championships for that
> 
> It's totally irrelevant how many people actually will come, it's about the possibility that other people can win it, etc.
> 
> ...



erik, (or anyone) answer my point. you keep talking but no one has said why this is unfair to be open. the primary concern is fairness, not european desires or wants, and most importantly its not europes competition, all competitions belong to everyone.

and this name changing is funny, its IS the EUROPEAN CHAMPIONSHIPS and all the boohooing won't change it to a different name.

there was info, you guys just don't like it, its was changed to be FAIR to all


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## shelley (May 21, 2008)

Give us one good reason why things should stay the way they were. Just because something has always been done a certain way doesn't mean it's the best way.

If you were paying attention, I just gave you a new solution. If you don't like how things are done, don't compete. No one's forcing you to compete against foreigners if you don't want to.


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## Erik (May 21, 2008)

sorry but I didn't take it serious since it'll won't help anything at all..
it'll only have effect if loads of people won't compete and will come to our own EC. Which will be bad since it'll be kinda a split which I want to avoid, though we might actually hold that other EC.
Btw, I'm kinda confused by your last post Shelley... the way it is now is that it's open? ..


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## shelley (May 21, 2008)

Erik said:


> Btw, I'm kinda confused by your last post Shelley... the way it is now is that it's open? ..



Sorry, I changed it. I was following your wording when you said "why not let it be as it is" when I meant to refer to how things were before, when it was closed.


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## rxdeath (May 21, 2008)

shelley said:


> Give us one good reason why things should stay the way they were. Just because something has always been done a certain way doesn't mean it's the best way.
> 
> If you were paying attention, I just gave you a new solution. If you don't like how things are done, don't compete. No one's forcing you to compete against foreigners if you don't want to.[/QUOTE
> 
> ...


----------



## Erik (May 21, 2008)

shelley said:


> Give us one good reason why things should stay the way they were. Just because something has always been done a certain way doesn't mean it's the best way.



I didn't say it was the best way, it's the way we want it to be (how wrong it might be)


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## AvGalen (May 21, 2008)

Tyson said:


> Again, this isn't because it's the European Championships. We would be having the same discussion if it was "The Adam Zamora Invitational."


I think the reason we are having this entire discussion IS because it was the European Championships and was turned in to the European Open (without explanation). If it would have been the European Open all along there wouldn't have been a discussion about this.
I cannot really explain why I like the feeling of an EC any better than I did before with the "history lesson".

I still hope someone can explain when/who/why it was decided to change the EC to an EO.


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## rxdeath (May 21, 2008)

Erik said:


> shelley said:
> 
> 
> > Give us one good reason why things should stay the way they were. Just because something has always been done a certain way doesn't mean it's the best way.
> ...



well the fair way is the best regardless of silly personal desires.

avg: i did tell you why, because its FAIR for it to be open, if you can tell me why its not fair, i will campaign for closed competition


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## bamilan (May 21, 2008)

(Sorry for not reading all of the posts before)

I do not agree with the decision that non-europeans will come and compete at the EC08. They also can make(?) a continental championship, called American championship (or so).
Why do you want to come here and destroy our championship with your best speedcubers with winning in few events and take away our prize money? 
That is too bad... A European championship is only for cubers from Europe (and from few other countries).

If this championship is called European Open, why would I have to go there? That is just like a normal open competition (like Polish Open). If it is a European Championship, I feel that my place is there, I have to go there (and win all events ). All (most) of the european cubers will be there. But an Open championship means really different for me and maybe for a lot of cubers.

Please change your decision(s).


Milan


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## Crazycubemom (May 21, 2008)

Hey ho everyone ,
1,This case seems like Asian Food Festival, but Mario and Luigi would like to come with their Spaggeti,Maccaroni,Lasagna etc,of course i'm as Asian won't let it happen in this Asian Food festival.

2,I have RESPECT to my BEST friend who doesn't invite me to her or his party because of he or she has party only with her or his family,so i have respest to myself .


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## rxdeath (May 21, 2008)

bamilan said:


> (Sorry for not reading all of the posts before)
> 
> I do not agree with the decision that non-europeans will come and compete at the EC08. They also can make(?) a continental championship, called American championship (or so).
> Why do you want to come here and destroy our championship with your best speedcubers with winning in few events and take away our prize money?
> ...




so basically u don't like it because someone might win a prize or do better than you. this is highly selfish, can you say why its a bad idea in terms of fairness to all cubers in the world? if we do have a NAR champoinship, you can be assured it will be open to all, because its the right thing to do


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## shelley (May 21, 2008)

bamilan said:


> Why do you want to come here and destroy our championship with your best speedcubers with winning in few events and take away our prize money?



I feel like a parrot having to repeat this over and over. Nobody's trying to "destroy" your championships. The best speedcubers in the world are not planning an invasion of the European Championships to make off with all the prize money. At most, this will probably only affect a few people (if any!), mostly non-European citizens living or traveling in Europe who want a chance to compete.



Crazycubemom said:


> 1,This case seems like Asian Food Festival, but Mario and Luigi would like to come with their Spaggeti,Maccaroni,Lasagna etc,of course i'm as Asian won't let it happen in this Asian Food festival.



The purpose of an Asian food festival is to showcase unique aspects of Asian food and Asian culture. Mario and Luigi would feel very silly and out of place if they wanted their Italian cuisine to be included.

This isn't the case with the European Rubik's Cube Championships. There is nothing distinct about European cubing compared to American cubing or Asian cubing. We are all cubers, and we all appreciate opportunities to compete. Country citizenship is an arbitrary classification, and it's silly to forbid certain people from competing based on that.


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## masterofthebass (May 21, 2008)

Crazycubemom said:


> Hey ho everyone ,
> 1,This case seems like Asian Food Festival, but Mario and Luigi would like to come with their Spaggeti,Maccaroni,Lasagna etc,of course i'm as Asian won't let it happen in this Asian Food festival.
> 
> 2,I have RESPECT to my BEST friend who doesn't invite me to her or his party because of he or she has party only with her or his family,so i have respest to myself .



This isn't an Asian food festival, where people are brining in other types of foods. This is a cubing competition where people who happen to be in the are would want to compete in the same events are Europeans. 


But this isn't a family only party. This is a sanctioned event by a world organization. If the ECA (european cube association) decided to hold a Europe only competition, then there's nothing I would be allowed to say. This pertains to a worldwide organization, not just the "family" of Europe.


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## Tyson (May 21, 2008)

Nobody wants European money! Milan, foreigners won't take your prizes or your money. It could be set up that way.

It's not my fault if the organizer doesn't do this. But foreigners aren't going for your money. In fact, simply say that the prizes are reserved for Europeans. But again, if this is not the case, I am not responsible for the decisions of the organizers.


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## rxdeath (May 21, 2008)

Tyson said:


> Nobody wants European money! Milan, foreigners won't take your prizes or your money. It could be set up that way.
> 
> It's not my fault if the organizer doesn't do this. But foreigners aren't going for your money. In fact, simply say that the prizes are reserved for Europeans. But again, if this is not the case, I am not responsible for the decisions of the organizers.



i personally think the money is a null point, but that anyone that goes should be able to win any prizes available, minus the title of 'european champion' no one is in it for the money, but it should be available to all.

ps-where did money come from?


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## AvGalen (May 21, 2008)

All this talk about fairness and competitions that must be open because it is the WCA and not the ECA is silly. According to the WCA-regulations:

8b)An open competition is open to anyone.
8c)A closed competition may be open to:

persons with a specific nationality
citizens of a specific continent
members of a specific club
I like both Open and Closed competitions and have competed in both. I don't care about prize money and rankings and would like to meet everyone again and again and again.

My reason for discussing this is that I would like to know why this competition was changed from Closed to Open.


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## Crazycubemom (May 21, 2008)

Crazycubemom said:


> 1,This case seems like Asian Food Festival, but Mario and Luigi would like to come with their Spaggeti,Maccaroni,Lasagna etc,of course I'm as Asian won't let it happen in this Asian Food festival
> 
> The purpose of an Asian food festival is to showcase unique aspects of Asian food and Asian culture. Mario and Luigi would feel very silly and out of place if they wanted their Italian cuisine to be included.
> 
> This isn't the case with the European Rubik's Cube Championships. There is nothing distinct about European cubing compared to American cubing or Asian cubing. We are all cubers, and we all appreciate opportunities to compete. Country citizenship is an arbitrary classification, and it's silly to forbid certain people from competing based on that.



I think before Mario and Luigi come they must know this is about Asian Food Festival .Of course silly for them .This is the same for EUROPEAN CHAMPIONSHIP 2008, they got right to make their own competition same as you and me and an other's non-European .Let them go with their competition.

@ Masterofthebass ,

I know what European Championships ,from European for European .
That's why as a outsider i just want to see European cubers compete in this European Championships .


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## rxdeath (May 21, 2008)

AvGalen said:


> All this talk about fairness and competitions that must be open because it is the WCA and not the ECA is silly. According to the WCA-regulations:
> 
> 8b)An open competition is open to anyone.
> 8c)A closed competition may be open to:
> ...



my answer: because it's fair is the best reason of all. hopefully those archaic rules will be removed from next years wca draft, i know i will fight for it.


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## Rama (May 21, 2008)

Erik: Twents Open... change it to EC! 
I'll help organising it, if you want.

rxdeath: My mom (who owns an Indonesian passport) supports Edouard, Erik and the others who are against this 'Open', she wants to help judging, do you hear her complain that she couldn't compete at some closed competitions, like I already said, I won't whine because I can't compete at the 'Turkish Championships', even better I just ask if I could help judging and still I can have a fun time.

Fair or unfair, I do not care, I want my European Championship.
Give me the EC and give me the EO seperated!

Am I being selfish? Yes sir!

See you at the next years WCA draft then, I love the atmosphere of closed and open competition fair or not fair.


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## Erik (May 21, 2008)

Rama said:


> Erik: Twents Open... change it to EC!
> I'll help organising it, if you want.



Yupyup that's very possible I think, only have to get a bigger location then...

New update on the European (open) 2008:
Note about European / non European competitors (to be decided when prizes are known):

Non European competitors can compete in all events like the European competitors.
Only European competitors can win the European Champion title and European Championship silver and bronze medals.
Only European competitors can win prizes for the main events.
In side events all competitors (European or non European) can win prizes.

It solved some of the problems, though not most and certainly not the main ones.


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## masterofthebass (May 21, 2008)

Rama, you're mom is in a completely different situation. First off, she doesn't live outside of Europe, and has already met and experienced the European ways. 

Crazycubemom, your lack of knowledge in English grammar isn't helping with your argument, but... I think I can still understand what you are saying. I don't want to go to European championships to sit there and watch others. That's not what competitions are about. Competing is part of the experience of going to a competition. I'm not there to watch cubers, but to compete. You're feelings on what you want to do at a competition has no barring on who should be allowed to compete.


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## rxdeath (May 21, 2008)

well i'm sorry and saddened some are so selfish they can't do what's best for the community. at least now we've established its not fair to have closed competitions to everyone, so hopefully this will be enough that people with selfless desires for the cubing community will speak out, and we will get all open competitions all the time. and if you're too weak willed to fight for fairness in turkey or wherever, that's your problem not mine. i'm a competitive cuber, and that's what i'm interested in, all fairness, all tournament, all the time.

do what's best for everyone, not just for your personal childish desires, we will all have more fun. 

if you manage to squeek off a closed competition and get it counted, hey great for you, but i will campaign to abolish them all asap. i also think its funny to go so far out of your way for the few (if any) non europeans that show up. also what are the guidelines for saying your competition is the championship of anything? does this get approved by the wca board, or can anyone call any tournament anything they want? this is european championships already (regardless of how you feel) and if you guys don't like i think its a big case of too bad so sad.


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## shelley (May 21, 2008)

Rama said:


> My mom (who owns an Indonesian passport) supports Edouard, Erik and the others who are against this 'Open', she wants to help judging, do you hear her complain that she couldn't compete at some closed competitions, like I already said, I won't whine because I can't compete at the 'Turkish Championships', even better I just ask if I could help judging and still I can have a fun time.



I was actually in Europe when Euro 2006 took place. I would have liked a chance to compete. I know other people might feel the same way had they been in my position.

Speaking of Euro 2006, it was open only to citizens of European nations and Israel. Why Israel? Israel is part of Asia, not Europe. Why include Israel and not Japan, or Canada, or the US? It goes to show that the citizenship thing is completely arbitrary and shouldn't be used as a basis of who should and shouldn't be allowed to compete.



Rama said:


> Fair or unfair, I do not care, I want my European Championship.
> Give me the EC and give me the EO seperated!



Nobody's taking it away from you. Allowing a few extra people to compete isn't going to destroy your championship. Especially if they don't even win. Besides, judging from the preregistration list so far, it doesn't look like you have anything to worry about anyway.



Rama said:


> Am I being selfish? Yes sir!



That's a strange thing to be proud about.


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## Subaruiz (May 21, 2008)

If this competition his open to non-europeans competitors , it can not been european championship. 
Why ? Read the definition of " championship " , it can not been named european championship


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## shelley (May 21, 2008)

The definition of "championship" in this context is simply a contest or competition from which a winner or champion is selected. I don't see how that is a problem. It's not like a European champion suddenly can't be crowned just because one of the competitors in the competition happens to own an American passport.

The US Championships have been open to citizens of other countries, and nobody's had any problem with it.

Try again.


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## Worms (May 21, 2008)

shelley said:


> Speaking of Euro 2006, it was open only to citizens of European nations and Israel. Why Israel? Israel is part of Asia, not Europe. Why include Israel and not Japan, or Canada, or the US?



In european competition, Israel is include in european championship, football basketball, etc etc


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## rubikaz (May 21, 2008)

I have checked now the competitors list:

http://www.speedcubing.com/events/euro2008/competitors.html

In two days:

Pyraminx: 30 competitors (max allowed 50)
4x4 blindfold: 13 competitors (max allowed 12)
5x5 blindfold: 7 competitors (max allowed 12)

This 3 events are limited. There is not a previous classification. So or the WCA accepts you or you cant compete. There are now 9 persons in the waiting list for this event... There are 9 non-European persons that have solved 4x4 blind in less of an our. If they come to this competition they can compete in this event and then no more European competitors will compete in 4x4 blindfold (guys in the waiting list will not compete), only 4 or 5 European guys in this competition.

What do you think about it?


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## rxdeath (May 21, 2008)

rubikaz said:


> I have checked now the competitors list:
> 
> http://www.speedcubing.com/events/euro2008/competitors.html
> 
> ...



have time trials/prelims to decide who goes, simple as that


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## rubikaz (May 21, 2008)

These 3 events have no prelims...


http://www.speedcubing.com/events/euro2008/events.html


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## rxdeath (May 21, 2008)

rubikaz said:


> These 3 events have no prelims...
> 
> 
> http://www.speedcubing.com/events/euro2008/events.html



change it. it's easily done . ask the organizers for it, and see what they have to say about it. i don't think there should be limits on competitors, but if its completely necessary, then it should be done based on times, not where you were born.


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## Subaruiz (May 21, 2008)

shelley said:


> The definition of "championship" in this context is simply a contest or competition from which a winner or champion is selected. I don't see how that is a problem. It's not like a European champion suddenly can't be crowned just because one of the competitors in the competition happens to own an American passport.
> 
> The US Championships have been open to citizens of other countries, and nobody's had any problem with it.
> 
> Try again.




In a championship , it's the winner who is designed champion ( it's the definition of championship) . It's a problem , at euro , the winner will not been designed champion , and the champion will not been the winner.

Nobody's had a problem with it at US Championships ? They should.


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## shelley (May 21, 2008)

Subaruiz said:


> shelley said:
> 
> 
> > The definition of "championship" in this context is simply a contest or competition from which a winner or champion is selected. I don't see how that is a problem. It's not like a European champion suddenly can't be crowned just because one of the competitors in the competition happens to own an American passport.
> ...



But they haven't, that's the point. People were fine with the way things were done with US Nationals at 2004 and 2006. Even when Shotaro Makisumi won in 2004.

How do you know the winner of the European Championship will not be the same as the European Champion? Have you guys perfected the art of seeing into the future over there? I'm quite curious as to who will win.


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## rxdeath (May 21, 2008)

Subaruiz said:


> shelley said:
> 
> 
> > The definition of "championship" in this context is simply a contest or competition from which a winner or champion is selected. I don't see how that is a problem. It's not like a European champion suddenly can't be crowned just because one of the competitors in the competition happens to own an American passport.
> ...




that's your definition of championship, others look at it as a competition where the champion is chosen. we did US championships right, only selfish people would think otherwise.


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## AvGalen (May 21, 2008)

Worms said:


> shelley said:
> 
> 
> > Speaking of Euro 2006, it was open only to citizens of European nations and Israel. Why Israel? Israel is part of Asia, not Europe. Why include Israel and not Japan, or Canada, or the US?
> ...


 
The reason Israel gets to play with Europe instead of Asia is mostly political. It's a sad reality, but it also shows that the world is far from perfect.

rxdeath: I think you should get off your high horse about fairness. The WCA regulations were an open process and if you really care(d) about this you should have spoken on the WCA forum and not just here. Fair means "according to the agreed rules", not "according to rxdeath vision". And your claim that


> at least now we've established its not fair to have closed competitions to everyone


 is just a blatant misrepresentation of the facts. If people want to organise a closed competition (according to rules 8b and 8c) they are free to do so and that would be a perfectly fair competition. If you believe that closed competitions are unfair that's an insult to the people that have put a lot of effort into previous and future closed competitions. Do you believe that the results from those closed competitions should be removed?

* According to http://www.thefreedictionary.com/fair fair means "8. Consistent with rules, logic, or ethics".
I have already discussed the WCA-rules
Logic says that a European Championship should be for Europeans only
Ethics are less obvious, but I don't think it is unethical to have a closed tournament. If rxdeath disagrees and actually means unethical when he says fair I hope he will stop using fair and start using unethical.


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## rxdeath (May 22, 2008)

AvGalen said:


> Worms said:
> 
> 
> > shelley said:
> ...



i like how because no one can refute me i'm on a high horse. i think the rules of the wca are unfair and should be changed to make all of them open, so saying this conforms to some set of rules, doesn't change the fact it excludes people. what if the rules say 'only americans that live on broadway blvd can win', is that still 'fair'? i can look up definitions of 'fair' to support my cause too, but its obvious: everyone gets every opportunity everyone else does. as far as logic, that is a subjective statement based on how your feeble construct defines championship. it being unethical is to me, obvious. how can you win if you just don't invite others better than you? seems pretty cheap to me. as far as old results, the wca has never removed results when the standard has changed, so they could stay without any harm in my opinion. i'm not insulting anyone's organization or anything, you're completely exagurrating and putting words in my mouth.

for the record i have brought this up before now, but its never received any attention, and at the start of my thread in the yahoo group i said i should have been more pressing during the draft of the rules, but i won't make that mistake again.


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## TobiasDaneels (May 22, 2008)

I swair I wouldn't respond in this topic but here I go.

Regarding the fact that "rxdeath" is somehow fearless in his cruisade to vanish every closed competition in the future, it's quite sad he only started his battle from the moment Euro 2008 was set on an other date and venue.
Then he realises he might be in that area in that period of time, and starts to argue. "rxdeath" is a member of the cubing community for a long time (what's long in speedcubing off course) and he seemed to have never complained (certainly not as energetic as now) about the regulations which say a closed competition can be hold. Even when it was in Poland and a couple of weeks earlier, this wouldn't effect him. 

Now who's selfish mate?

Just my two cents.


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## Lucas Garron (May 22, 2008)

I find this peculiar: I can attend a closed EC because I'm German and I can attend the US Nationals because they're always open.

Somehow this makes my nationality choice feel like something to play with, manipulate to my advantage...


For now, I'm really for Open, because the EC is open to all willing Europeans. I think the issue will become greater when US Nationals and the EC will become invitational, like large sport events. But even then, I think it should be invitational for all constituencies, but also for a few foreigners.

EDIT: Tobias, I would like to note that all your statements are verifiably wrong. Clancy can probably give you a good, evidence-based refutation of each.


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## rxdeath (May 22, 2008)

TobiasDaneels said:


> I swair I wouldn't respond in this topic but here I go.
> 
> Regarding the fact that "rxdeath" is somehow fearless in his cruisade to vanish every closed competition in the future, it's quite sad he only started his battle from the moment Euro 2008 was set on an other date and venue.
> Then he realises he might be in that area in that period of time, and starts to argue. "rxdeath" is a member of the cubing community for a long time (what's long in speedcubing off course) and he seemed to have never complained (certainly not as energetic as now) about the regulations which say a closed competition can be hold. Even when it was in Poland and a couple of weeks earlier, this wouldn't effect him.
> ...



lol its not like you brought my argument crashing down, i'm still right, and not selfish, so don't feel too clever. i've brought this up before actually on the yahoo group, feel free to search the posts for it, i'm not going to waste my time. its just no one ever payed attention or spawned a debate about it. i will gladly agree not go/compete (which i'm not even sure will happen) if it kills closed competitions and meant that anyone else non euro that went could compete. i think its funny you could call someone that is fighting for equal right for everyone selfish. should the poland tourney have been closed? imo, no. i chose the euros as the breaking point since its such a large attractive event, and since other USA national competition have always been fair in allowing everyone to compete, i work to abolish this unfair duality.

its sad i actually took the time to do this: http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/speedsolvingrubikscube/message/29908


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## Bryan (May 22, 2008)

Here's the discussion on the WCA forum

http://www.worldcubeassociation.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=84

And it was bumped for the 2008 discussion. I see it was also referenced in Clancy's yahoo post.

For those people who do support closed competitions, I'm curious where the line should be drawn. Should we be allowed to limit people by their location (regardless of citizenship)? How granular should we get? State/providence, city? What if we specifically excluded certain countries from competition? What about specific competitors? 

Also, how important is a national title? Do you guys print up T-shirts and wear them for the next two years or get some sort of tattoo? Or is it a belt like in boxing or professional wrestling?

Also, how important are closed competitions to you? Would you be willing to give up anything in order to have them? Perhaps not recognize WR's from a closed competition or prevent the competitions from other competitions if they compete in closed ones? What if there was a limit of 1 round for each event in closed competitions?


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## Ton (May 22, 2008)

I guess the problem is in the way the podium places are assigned

In the other open competition , being 4 th - e.g. 3th European- , would get no medals, so we could do two podiums for every event. One for 1,2,3 overall, and 1,2,3 for the best European, who will get the European medals. This is the case for the Rubik 3x3 event, currently for the other event this is not the case

However to have two podiums per event would not resolve the fact that the price money will go to , I guess 1,2,3 overall, but I think it is fair to assign also a money prize for the first European in any main event.


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## KConny (May 22, 2008)

carrot (just drop it)


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## Rama (May 22, 2008)

shelley said:


> Rama said:
> 
> 
> > Fair or unfair, I do not care, I want my European Championship.
> ...



Yes, but some people cannot even advance to the second or final round, because some people were faster and they were from a country outside Europe.
I wouldn't mind that, but it's still the EC and it's not fair for the European cubers not to advance in their championships.



shelley said:


> Rama said:
> 
> 
> > Am I being selfish? Yes sir!
> ...



NO MA'AM.


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## Erik (May 22, 2008)

Actually I think all points Tobias made are actually true besides the one that Rxdeath made some points about this in the history.
@Bryan: I think the line should be drawn on continental competitions, I don't care that much about nationals. 
The fact that most people, like lucas did in his last post, compare the US Nationals (1 country!) to Europe is maybe because most people think if the USA to be at the same level as one continent because it happens to be a big country with lots of influence?

Maybe rxdeath put the finger at the right spot now, the European Championship is no longer a Championship but an Open... 

Also Arnaud's post makes a lot of sence, in a way, if you are against the EC being open, you are kinda saying the WCA rules are wrong. How can you change the enforcement of the rules when the rules (which say a closed competition/championship is fine) say otherwise?
You can't make a new rule to inspect for 15 sec instead of half an hour before each solve for a competition unless the rules have changed (no matter how bizar the half hour inspection might be)...


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## AvGalen (May 22, 2008)

rxdeath said:


> i like how because no one can refute me i'm on a high horse. i think the rules of the wca are unfair and should be changed to make all of them open, so saying this conforms to some set of rules, doesn't change the fact it excludes people. what if the rules say 'only americans that live on broadway blvd can win', is that still 'fair'? i can look up definitions of 'fair' to support my cause too, but its obvious: everyone gets every opportunity everyone else does. as far as logic, that is a subjective statement based on how your feeble construct defines championship. it being unethical is to me, obvious. how can you win if you just don't invite others better than you? seems pretty cheap to me. as far as old results, the wca has never removed results when the standard has changed, so they could stay without any harm in my opinion. i'm not insulting anyone's organization or anything, you're completely exagurrating and putting words in my mouth.
> 
> for the record i have brought this up before now, but its never received any attention, and at the start of my thread in the yahoo group i said i should have been more pressing during the draft of the rules, but i won't make that mistake again.


 
You are misrepresenting others words and drawing incorrect conclusions and stating them as facts. You are not on a high horse because no one can refute you. I said you should get of your high horse because you are preaching about fairness while the WCA-rules have been to a fair process and you didn't address it properly then and there (if at all).
And again you are not being fair when you say "I can look up definitions of 'fair' to support my cause too". That implies I looked up a definition that suited my cause which is not true. (first hit: http://www.google.nl/search?q=fair+dictionary) and I even mentioned that you might mean the ethical part.
Than you mention my feeble construct of the definition of championship and how you could only win if you invited everyone. The topic is not any championship, but the European Championship and you can win that if you don't invite everyone. That doesn't mean you are the best there is, it means you are the best of the people that came to the European Championship (and arguably could mean you are the best in Europe).
Your argument about 'only americans that live on broadway blvd can win' is silly because that is so obviously unfair that it would never make it to become a WCA-rule. The current WCA-rules however do allow for closed tournaments so it is fair to have (and want) closed tournaments. If you don't agree, take it up with the WCA.
And then you even say that I am exagurrating and putting words into your mouth when I ask you "Do you believe that the results from those closed competitions should be removed?". I am not saying you think that that should happen, I was interested to find out if you think that should happen (you don't). The one putting words into anothers mouth is you, not me.

For ultimate clarity, this is what I think about this:
1) The current WCA rules are fair and allow for closed competitions
2) I like having a National and Continental (closed) competition
3) I like having many Open competitions too
4) I like the idea of having a European Open
5) I don't like the idea of a European Championship (closed) that changes to a European Open
6) Now that is has been decided to change the European Championship to a Europea Open I look forward to meeting as many non-European competitors as possible (though I think only about 5 will be there), but this tournament will no longer feel like a European Championship. Instead I will feel like the (big) Bilbao Open



Bryan said:


> Here's the discussion on the WCA forum
> 
> http://www.worldcubeassociation.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=84
> 
> ...


 
Thanks for pointing to that discussion on the WCA list and for telling me that rxdeath is Clancy. I still don't know the details about the change from EC to EO, but at least now I know I bit more about the general discussion Open/Closed. (and I was really wondering who rxdeath was)

I am one of the person's that support closed competitions. If a school would like to organise a competition where only its students could compete that would be ok with me, but they shouldn't expect to be an official WCA tournament. The WCA has clear rules about this and I support those rules.
For non-WCA-tournaments I am very ok with closed competitions on the base of age/gender/handicapt/others if it helps to improve those competitions and increase the joy of the competitors. For example an 18 year old shouldn't be allowed in a "kids-run", but a kid should be allowed in a "grown-up-run". Seperate competitons for men/women make sense to me in most sports (not cubing) and things like the paralympics should be self explanatory.

Getting a national title or a national record is a pretty big thing and can be a great motivator. Having a Dutch National (closed) or European Championship (closed) means that competitors, press and sponsors have a different experience compared to their Open equivalents. That doesn't mean that I think every tournament should be closed. Actually I think 1 closed national (yearly) and 1 closed continental (yearly/2-yearly) should be the only closed tournaments and that's the way it has been.


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## TobiasDaneels (May 22, 2008)

rxdeath said:


> its sad i actually took the time to do this: http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/speedsolvingrubikscube/message/29908



Ok, you're right, you brought it up a long time ago. My bad. 
But you could have complained much more back then.

Now you say, I will make sure the new regulations will be different, while bakc then you made some complains about it and afterwords let it rest.
Since now, it effects you, you, it seems, won't rest untill it has been changed.

Don't get me wrong, I do appreciate you fighting this, but I think you started it for the wrong reasons.
http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/speedsolvingrubikscube/message/41185

Reed the second sentence.


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## Dene (May 22, 2008)

Well I figure I may as well post here with everyone else. It's clear that a majority of Europeans (so they say) want the competition to be closed, and by the current rules they should be allowed to adhere.
However I would be all behind rxdeath to eradicate closed competitions in future.

It wouldn't be nice to close this competition again, but I think it is for the best in this particular case. Some of the European guys here seem either offended or plain hostile at having it open. That would take away a lot of the fun, and it shouldn't be so for the Europeans, whom the competition is for.


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## keyan (May 22, 2008)

AvGalen said:


> If a school would like to organise a competition where only its students could compete that would be ok with me, but they shouldn't expect to be an official WCA tournament. The WCA has clear rules about this and I support those rules.




Not so much. 



WCA regulation 8c said:


> A closed competition may be open to... members of a specific club




For example, the My First Name is Tyson Club, or the I Didn't Participate in the European Championship 2008 Club. That sound fair? These fit the rules just as much as yours, excluding people arbitrarily.


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## jazzthief81 (May 22, 2008)

I don't quite follow the reasoning that this tournament is "not a European Championship" anymore.

The European Championship is the tournament that decides who is awarded the title of European Champion. It's about what is at stake. *How* exactly is decided who is the European Champion is of academic interest as long is it is done in a fair and sporting way.

For me the fact that the European Championship is open to everyone doesn't change anything:
- The competition is open to all Europeans and they all get an equal opportunity to defend their chances.
- The European who has the highest placement in a certain event I think can rightly call himself the best European cuber in that event and is entitled to be awarded the title of European Champion.

Some people are worried about how prices/medals/podium places need to be divided. I think it's not up to us to break our heads over that, it's up to the organizers, who have decided that this is going to be an open tournament. I'm sure they will come up with a good and fair solution and everyone will get what they deserve and return home feeling happy.

Speaking of organizers: I'm sure the people who are in charge of this championship made this decision because they thought it was going to be an asset to this competition to allow every competitor. It was made with the best of intentions. Therefore I think it's sad that we have reacted in this way. 

All the people who work very hard to make this happen certainly didn't deserve this.


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## Stefan (May 22, 2008)

AvGalen said:


> Getting a national title or a national record is a pretty big thing and can be a great motivator.


Or a great demotivator. I *am* "German champion" because there was a closed German championship and I won, so it's an accurate title. But I don't like it. This discussion made me aware of it and it gives me another reason for me to not compete in another closed German championship. German Open is different, if I win an event there I won't be "German champion" but "German Open winner". Clumsy maybe, but I don't care.



Subaruiz said:


> Read the definition of " championship " , it can not been named european championship


I did read some, and they didn't imply that at all. Maybe you found a different definition? Please show us.



Rama said:


> My mom (who owns an Indonesian passport) supports Edouard, Erik and the others who are against this 'Open', she wants to help judging, do you hear her complain that she couldn't compete at some closed competitions


With all due respect, she is a mediocre cuber and relatively old, I think that makes her look at this in a more relaxed way. Oh and why do you mention this at all? Because closed is ok for one non-European, that means it must be ok for all? That's proof by example. Flawed.



bamilan said:


> If this championship is called European Open, why would I have to go there? That is just like a normal open competition (like Polish Open).


Wrong. European Open, advertised as such and probably with more prizes/days/events/media, will be much larger than other open competitions like the Polish Open. That's what makes it special.

I don't care about the name of the competitions or about regional titles (except in a negative way, except world champion). What makes the European Thing much more attractive than others is that it will be much bigger. Because people agree to *make* it much bigger.


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## rubikaz (May 22, 2008)

rxdeath said:


> i don't think there should be limits on competitors,



Maybe they dont have enough time for it...



rxdeath said:


> but if its completely necessary, then it should be done based on times, not where you were born.



Times in previous compeitions? I think NO
Times in a preliminary round? Maybe they dont have enough time for it...
Not based where you were born... Why not? It is the European championship...


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## AvGalen (May 22, 2008)

keyan said:


> AvGalen said:
> 
> 
> > If a school would like to organise a competition where only its students could compete that would be ok with me, but they shouldn't expect to be an official WCA tournament. The WCA has clear rules about this and I support those rules.
> ...


Good point keyan, I actually didn't read as far as the club part. (Never noticed it before, glad I know now).

I am guessing that club part was added because of an Asian country where two clubs were (are?) present that didn't (dont?) get along.

I think most of your other arguments (though funny) would be prevented because of rules 8a-n. (good luck finding >=12 Tyson's) And a school is not a club. (or is it? That's the only time the word club is mentioned in the regulations so I don't really know what club was supposed to mean) 

It has been mentioned so many times that birth-country or other geographic limits are arbitrary. But that really isn't true. Borders (and citizenship) exist for a reason and influence which laws and politics you have to abide to and what freedom you have. Just because abortion/prostitution/drugs/nudity/bigamy/xxx are/aren't allowed in your country doesn't mean that's the way it should be everywhere.

Europe has a tradition where sports are viewed at multiple levels. It starts within your local age group in your local club and goes up to city/regional/national/european/world-championships.
Europe also has a tradition in open Tournaments where people from all over the world are welcome to participate.
Tradition might not always make sense to outsiders and sometimes outsiders that point out how weird/bad/unethical a tradition is are actually right. But they should realise that it's not their choose to change it, that there will be resistance, that it will be a slow process and that they might actually be wrong.

This tournament would have been a closed European Championship, got moved to a different country and date and was changed to an Open. All of this without much communication and explanation. I think it makes sense that Europeans are wondering if all these changes are for the better.

But I have made the mental switch. European Championship will be (big) Bilbao Open, I will meet many European and hopefully some non-European friends, I will set some new personal records and maybe a European or WR record and I will enjoy everything this tournament has to offer.

See you all there



StefanPochmann said:


> AvGalen said:
> 
> 
> > Getting a national title or a national record is a pretty big thing and can be a great motivator.
> ...


 
Stefan, why where you demotivated? Was it because you reached a goal (best in Germany) or because you didn't reach a higher goal (best "individual") ? And why weren't you at German Open this year? Was it because of your diploma/thesis/school, or is the rumor that you didn't came "because someone smoked a year before" true?


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## Tyson (May 22, 2008)

I think there is some seriously flawed logic. How can you say the WCA regulations are fair? It is still a process that is only 4 years old.

The regulations are living and breathing, and things may be done a certain way in the past, but circumstances and attitudes change with time. It is completely acceptable to say the WCA regulations themselves are unfair.

This isn't to say that the WCA is useless. It is done to the best of human ability, and the idea that anyone out there can come up with something perfect that solves everything is an immense indicator of myopic thinking and immaturity.

Because it is a new sport, a lot of things were copied by example from other sports. As we move forward, it becomes apparent that there are differences in cubing that are very pleasant compared to other sports, and so it makes sense to capitalize on these things for the overall global improvement.


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## Jason (May 22, 2008)

Well, the future holds two scenarios: one where there would be a happy mixture of open and closed competitions to suit _most_ people's taste, and the other where all closed competitions would be banned. (A third scenario would be only closed competitions, which i think nobody would endorse). Well, as mentionned by Tyson, the WCA regulations are young and evolving, and each year, the rules are discussed and revised. But, during the course of a given year, it is only fair to follow the current rules and regulations, (which I remind were debated in a participative manner) otherwise the whole thing would be complete anarchy with people arguing about the regulations (and how they're not fair from their point of view) at every competition. I believe that we should follow the 2008 rules and regulations (giving the right to hold closed competitions), and in 2009, as a community we can revise them, and hold a debate in some sort of democratic particpative way as done previously on the WCA forum. I think that it will transpire that most people would be in favour a of happy balance of open and closed competitions to suit _most_ people's wants. Trying to force everybody into adopting Open only competitions might not be that open.


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## Stefan (May 22, 2008)

AvGalen said:


> Stefan, why where you demotivated? Was it because you reached a goal (best in Germany) or because you didn't reach a higher goal (best "individual") ? And why weren't you at German Open this year? Was it because of your diploma/thesis/school, or is the rumor that you didn't came "because someone smoked a year before" true?


I wasn't demotivated. Now I would be, because now I see the possibility of a national title as demotivating/dissuasive.

Being "best in Germany" was not my goal. At least not explicitly. Being best at the competition was my goal.

Main reason for not going to German Open this year was indeed that I finished my diploma thesis shortly before it and I wasn't in the mood for organizing the travel. Smoke was only a minor reason there, although there's a good chance it'll be the reason for me to not go to the European competition.


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## masterofthebass (May 22, 2008)

Jason said:


> Well, the future holds two scenarios: one where there would be a happy mixture of open and closed competitions to suit _most_ people's taste, and the other where all closed competitions would be banned. (A third scenario would be only closed competitions, which i think nobody would endorse). Well, as mentionned by Tyson, the WCA regulations are young and evolving, and each year, the rules are discussed and revised. But, during the course of a given year, it is only fair to follow the current rules and regulations, (which I remind were debated in a participative manner) otherwise the whole thing would be complete anarchy with people arguing about the regulations (and how they're not fair from their point of view) at every competition. I believe that we should follow the 2008 rules and regulations (giving the right to hold closed competitions), and in 2009, as a community we can revise them, and hold a debate in some sort of democratic particpative way as done previously on the WCA forum. I think that it will transpire that most people would be in favour a of happy balance of open and closed competitions to suit _most_ people's wants. Trying to force everybody into adopting Open only competitions might not be that open.




But do the regulations state that it's not allowed to have an open competition? Right now, we are not trying to change the rules. Here, we are trying to keep a competition that has been declared open, as open (I know it was originally thought of as closed). The organizers have the right to do what they want, and they have seemed to be influenced by people who share the final opinion. If you really want a closed competition that much, go and organize it yourself. Give yourself European Championship medals, and have your own little fun tournament. The reason for an open competition is for the enjoyment of the everyone, not just for people who were born in a certain area.


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## pete (May 22, 2008)

StefanPochmann said:


> Smoke was only a minor reason there, although there's a good chance it'll be the reason for me to not go to the European competition.



competitions are not smoke free ?

anyway, there is a good chance they removed those ashtrays even from toilets at french airports by now


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## Jason (May 22, 2008)

Well, maybe we should organise a poll together with all the people who seriously intend on going to the Euro 2008 about which format they would prefer. As it's an association (although not by all definitions, as the board isn't elected), the organisers should seriously take into consideration the choice and concerns of the majority of the people who make up this association participating at this competition, which ever way that majority sways. What do you reckon?


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## Stefan (May 22, 2008)

pete said:


> StefanPochmann said:
> 
> 
> > Smoke was only a minor reason there, although there's a good chance it'll be the reason for me to not go to the European competition.
> ...


I think most are, but not all, at least not really. Last year's German Open had people smoking right outside the open door to the competition hall and smoke came inside. But I'm not just talking about the competition itself, but also the other places I'll be. For example hotel lobbies or restaurants. And this is what Wikipedia says about smoking in Spain (highlighting by me):



> On 1st January, 2006, the law bans smoking in offices, shops, schools, hospitals, cultural centres and on public transport, including stations and airports. The law also states that restaurants and bars over 100 m² can designate a smoking area, but it has to be physically separated and may occupy at most 30% of the total floor space of the establishment. Establishments smaller than 100 sq.m. may choose whether to allow or prohibit smoking (*most have allowed it*). Additionally, the law prohibits the sale of tobacco products to persons under 18 years of age and limits the places in which tobacco can be sold.[70]
> 
> The law went into effect on January 1st, 2006. Months later, the community of Madrid made a decree which states that restaurants over 100 m² are not required to make complete physical separation of the smoking and non-smoking areas. Three other autonomous communities made similar decrees watering down the law, so that smoking areas are only required to be separated with ventilation systems. This measure has been proved inefficient by most scientific literature.[71] See Spanish Antismoking Law (in Spanish)
> 
> Since Spain is a strongly decentralized country, a few autonomous communities, such as Madrid, Valencia, La Rioja, and Balearic Islands, have started an official but undeclared boycott to the Law, approved in the Spanish Parliament by unanimity. These communities are also using the courts to even make the law lighter, something impossible as the Ban Law is a Spanish Basic Law that can't be modified by local or autonomous governments.



This to me demonstrates a general Spanish pro-smoking mentality disrespecting non-smokers, disrespecting me. Unless someone convinces me that the Wikipedia article is completely wrong, I find the Spanish situation unacceptable for me.


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## Bryan (May 22, 2008)

Like masterofthebass said, it's the organizers who are making this decision. Just as if I held a competition and if I didn't have a certain event and they wanted it, they ask and I comply with the request if I decide I want to.

Tyson, I'm interested in holding a parallel closed competition in Atlanta. It's for the "You helped organize a competition" club, and it's members are restricted to people who helped organize or be a delegate for a competition. Officially, it's a nice way to thank the people who've helped with expanding cubing, unofficially, it's because my times suck, and I would really like to be able to artificially limit the competition so I can have a few more changes to increase my PB's. If people don't mind a huge closed competition with a small parallel open competition, they shouldn't mind a huge open with a small parallel closed.


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## Tyson (May 22, 2008)

Maybe the United States should hold a vote of everyone living in the United States on whether or not it should be a Christian country?

Because you know, the majority is by definition correct. Can you imagine what would happen if we always did what the majority wanted? I don't think that's a valid argument.


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## AvGalen (May 22, 2008)

Tyson said:


> I think there is some seriously flawed logic. How can you say the WCA regulations are fair? It is still a process that is only 4 years old.
> 
> The regulations are living and breathing, and things may be done a certain way in the past, but circumstances and attitudes change with time. It is completely acceptable to say the WCA regulations themselves are unfair.
> 
> ...


 
Maybe that's a language thing Tyson, but I think the rules are fair. They are not perfect and will probably change many more times due to smaller and bigger problems and hindsight. However the current rules have evolved from the previous rules and (as for as I know) the process of forming the rules has always been an open process. To me the rules were formed in accordance to "the rules for creating rules", seem logical and ethical. I won't go as far as calling them 100% fair, but that's not a big problem for me.

I hope I will meet you, Shelley, Clancy and many others (including Stefan) at the US Open this year.


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## Jason (May 22, 2008)

The united states is not an association of willing individuals!! I forgot that in the united states, you operated in the interests of a minority


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## Tyson (May 22, 2008)

But is the minority ever worth protecting?

The 'state' still has to look over the interests of everyone. If 80% of the population believes in having prayer in school, it isn't really something where you just say, oh, sorry to the 20% and tell them to go somewhere else.


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## Tyson (May 22, 2008)

AvGalen said:


> Tyson said:
> 
> 
> > I hope I will meet you, Shelley, Clancy and many others (including Stefan) at the US Open this year.
> ...


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## Jason (May 22, 2008)

in some cases, yes, in other cases, no. Anyway, I reckon I'm going to stop arguing now. In this particular instance, I would have preferred to have seen a closed competition (and it's nothing to do with prizes or ego) , but hey, it's been decided otherwise. Next time hopefully, the decision process will be more transparent. Happy cubing!!


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## Tyson (May 22, 2008)

I think you're more likely just trying to rationalize things for this particular case. I really don't think this change will make any noticeable difference.


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## Jason (May 22, 2008)

Well, in a truly democratic society, laws are voted by an elected parlament, and those laws apply to everybody. The 20% of the population that doesn't want to pay tax?, well that's tough. (by the way, it's you who went on a tangent talking about the US and christians) But your last comment is right, it won't make a noticable diffence in practice for the Euro 2008.


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## pete (May 22, 2008)

StefanPochmann said:


> what Wikipedia says about smoking in Spain



hmmm, and I actually thought switzerland was the worst offender in europe


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## Tyson (May 22, 2008)

Hey Jason,

But there are also checks and balances. President Bush might have most of the support of the House and the Senate, but he won't able to mandate Bible readings every 4 o'clock because there's a supreme court that would strike it down.

My main point is that just because everyone votes for it, it doesn't mean it's right, and you can't just follow the majority and say "tough" to the people who disagree. Many times, it's the minority right that is under attack.

I mean, is what I'm saying unreasonable? Please feel free to disagree. But this idea that if 80% of a group agrees on one thing and so it should be done that day, that's a private club. You basically kick out everyone who disagrees. I could think of many examples of abuse if things were actually done this way in the world, and I don't think they are.


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## rubikaz (May 22, 2008)

Tyson said:


> Maybe the United States should hold a vote of everyone living in the United States on whether or not it should be a Christian country?





Religion is an individual thing. You can decide is you are Christian or not. It affects only you. Open or closed competition, it affects a more persons. So I think it is a "stupid" comparison...


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## Jason (May 22, 2008)

So what do we do? Just accept the fact that it's an Open, and tough for everybody else who doesn't agree, just because rxdeath a.k.a Clancy Cochran decided he wanted to come to the party? Because that is the state of affairs


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## Tyson (May 22, 2008)

rubikaz said:


> Religion is an individual thing. You can decide is you are Christian or not. It affects only you. Open or closed competition, it affects a more persons. So I think it is a "stupid" comparison...



I really don't think this question is as stupid as you make it out to be. Even though religion is a personal thing, the United States government routinely makes laws in support of one religion over another.

http://www.edmondsun.com/opinion/local_story_067125346.html

So really, you can choose whatever you want to believe, and no one really has a say in that. However, it does affect every American citizen because governments will pass laws that support one religion over the other. Even though religion is a personal choice, if government has a right to vote on it, they can impose it on others.

I hope my comparison makes a bit more sense now.


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## Jason (May 22, 2008)

it doen't make that much sense. Everybody (europeans and non-europeans) were expecting it to be a closed competition. All of a sudden this Clancy guy comes out and says "no way José, I'm coming even though I'm not european, so change the format of the competition", and everybody has to bend over and take it


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## Tyson (May 22, 2008)

Jason said:


> So what do we do? Just accept the fact that it's an Open, and tough for everybody else who doesn't agree, just because rxdeath a.k.a Clancy Cochran decided he wanted to come to the party? Because that is the state of affairs



I don't understand "that is the state of affairs."

But in response, we've all had to make compromises over various issues. I compromised when 3x3x3 multi-bld was made into an event, and I compromised over the new starting procedure. No one can win all the time. Unless you're Lars Petrus. Because then you're just made of win.


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## Jason (May 22, 2008)

it means, "that's what the present state is". 3x3x3 multi-bld was made into an event based upon concensus, as well as the new starting procedure, not because some guy just decided so. I actually don't care any more whether it's an open or closed competition anymore, I'm just shocked by the way it was decided and how everybody just has to accept it.


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## Tyson (May 22, 2008)

Jason said:


> it doen't make that much sense. Everybody (europeans and non-europeans) were expecting it to be a closed competition. All of a sudden this Clancy guy comes out and says "no way José, I'm coming even though I'm not european, so change the format of the competition", and everybody has to bend over and take it



At the same time, this has been something in discussion since 2005. Would anyone have listened to Clancy if what he said had no merit?


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## AvGalen (May 22, 2008)

Tyson said:


> AvGalen said:
> 
> 
> > Tyson said:
> ...


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## Tyson (May 22, 2008)

YES! Lars V.? That completes my plan! I've only dreamed that the three of you would come.

You'll notice that from the start, I called it the US Nationals and Open 2008. Would never exclude you guys from the competition... I even made prizes just for you!

Of course... I could be full of it. We'll just have to wait and see.


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## Jason (May 22, 2008)

Of course the idea has merit, even though not everybody would agree with his point of view. But the point here is that there was no serious consensus for modifying the format of the Euro competition, and it has made a lot of people unhappy, and for what, just so that Clancy can come along and have his fun as well. So what have we gained? A lot of angry europeans and a happy Clancy that probably won't even dare set foot at the competition anyway. It has generated discussion which is good I suppose, but do you really expect, for example, people in France to stop organising a french championship? They won't. And if there's a ban, it'll cause a split. 
Man I'm fed up of sounding like a party pooper : (


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## Tyson (May 22, 2008)

I mean no disrespect, but if you sound like a party-pooper, I think it's because on some level that is sort of what's going on.

But again, why is it so hard to organize a competition where you let everyone compete, but treat the awards as if you held two different events?


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## shelley (May 22, 2008)

AvGalen said:


> Europe has a tradition where sports are viewed at multiple levels. It starts within your local age group in your local club and goes up to city/regional/national/european/world-championships.
> Europe also has a tradition in open Tournaments where people from all over the world are welcome to participate.
> Tradition might not always make sense to outsiders and sometimes outsiders that point out how weird/bad/unethical a tradition is are actually right. But they should realise that it's not their choose to change it, that there will be resistance, that it will be a slow process and that they might actually be wrong.



The United States has local/state/regional/national level championships, both open and closed, for many sports and activities as well. It's not a foreign concept to us. But give us a reason why cube competitions also have to be held this way, aside from "it's always been done this way" or "other sports do it this way." Cubing is different from other sports. Participation is much more open, you don't have to be part of an established team or league or whatever in order to go to a tournament, and as far as I know, nobody does this for money.

It would make a little more sense if people had to qualify for the European Championships, and it was closed to only top competitors from national/regional level competitions. Isn't this how national/continental level championships in other sports work? In that scenario, I could understand it being closed. You earned your way there. But being closed to citizens of certain countries but open to everyone else just seems arbitrary and unfair.

Every competition in the US has been open, even our national championships. The reason we keep comparing our nationals with your continental level competitions is that in terms of geographic and population size (and cuber population), the US is more comparable to Europe than to, say, Hungary. It's not because we think the US is more important than any single European country.


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## rxdeath (May 22, 2008)

Jason said:


> Of course the idea has merit, even though not everybody would agree with his point of view. But the point here is that there was no serious consensus for modifying the format of the Euro competition, and it has made a lot of people unhappy, and for what, just so that Clancy can come along and have his fun as well. So what have we gained? A lot of angry guys and a happy Clancy that probably won't even dare set foot at the competition anyway. It has generated discussion which is good I suppose, but do you really expect, for example, people in France to stop organising a french championship? They won't. And if there's a ban, it'll cause a split



lol you're amazingly ignorant. you have no arguments and you've broken down into a temper tantrum. first, i didn't make this decision, i just presented and argument, and the organizers agreed, so you're pointing your anger at the wrong person. if anyone had been as vocal before it was changed maybe it wouldn't have, your inaction is the only thing to blame. 

second if you think i give a **** what anyone thinks of me about this, and that i wouldn't show up because i'd feel intimidated, your dead wrong. if you think it's about me, how about this: i would gladly give my word to never compete in a european championship as long as they were open for everyone else, but i'd never not go just because i think some people are still crying over the better format that i inspired to happen.

i've never made this personal, and you did. if you have hate for me i don't give a crap, because you're a joke to me. i laugh at your ignorance. if anyone wants to split off from the wca, then you're pathetic. waah i'm taking my ball and going home.

but guess what, you can't do anything about it. right now its open and i bet its going to stay that way. if it changes back, its for the worse, but i won't loose any sleep over it. i'll see all the selfish whiners at the 09 rule draftings.


avg: i merely showed how rules != fair by any means, and to say that rule is ridiculous and other competitions should be closed is different, i think is flawed. exclusion is exclusion and they should all be stopped. no one can refute the definition of all opportunity for all cubers all the time, without selfish or pride-based motivation.


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## rubikaz (May 22, 2008)

Tyson said:


> I really don't think this question is as stupid as you make it out to be. Even though religion is a personal thing, the United States government routinely makes laws in support of one religion over another.
> 
> http://www.edmondsun.com/opinion/local_story_067125346.html
> 
> ...



Ok, a bit more ok, but... the problem is not religion, your government make laws and you can choose (with the vote of all you) the government. So maybe you should do the comparison (Goverment) <-> (open or closed)

On the other hand if we (pro-closed European championship) compare it with other sports, you (pro-open European championship) say that we cant compare it because blablabla. So... why are you do it now?


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## Stefan (May 22, 2008)

shelley said:


> The reason we keep comparing our nationals with your continental level competitions is that in terms of geographic and population size (and cuber population), the US is more comparable to Europe than to, say, Hungary.


In terms of WCA competitors you're actually slightly larger:
USA - 995
Europe - 937


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## Tyson (May 22, 2008)

rubikaz said:


> Tyson said:
> 
> 
> > I really don't think this question is as stupid as you make it out to be. Even though religion is a personal thing, the United States government routinely makes laws in support of one religion over another.
> ...



I was merely trying to provide an example of why a majority vote doesn't necessarily mean that it's the right thing to do. Imagine for some reason that no one liked your country, and the entire European Union voted, and they decided to exclude your country from the championships. Maybe they didn't feel you were "European" enough, or some reasons why simply have no merit. But they were the majority and they won. The EU should protect your rights, even if everyone dislikes you right?

Now, your country probably doesn't have much of a problem. So... hmm... *brainstorms*... but yeah. My point is that just because a majority of people vote one way, it doesn't mean that their decision is correct or fair. These things are very different and should not be confused with each other. First, determine fairness through objective facts. Votes represent opinions.


----------



## rubikaz (May 22, 2008)

Tyson said:


> Now, your country probably doesn't have much of a problem. So... hmm... *brainstorms*... but yeah. My point is that just because a majority of people vote one way, it doesn't mean that their decision is correct or fair. These things are very different and should not be confused with each other. First, determine fairness through objective facts. Votes represent opinions.



What means objective fact? When you write here (or other user), you don't use objective facts, you use facts that you think they are objectives so you are use your opinion. We all are giving our opinions.


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## Jason (May 22, 2008)

To rxdeath:
Me, braking down in a temper tantrum? That's pretty rich coming from you ; )
The reason why people weren't so vocal before this decision is that the subject was posted on one of the more obscure cubing forums, and that most people weren't even aware of the discussion. Why didn't you post here? This is the main point of why people are upset, there was no exposure of all this to the vast majority of us. so don't bother talking about inaction in this precise case.
I don't see why if anybody splits from the WCA, it would mean that _I'm_ pathetic, but anyhow...
But there's probably a more important thing to all of this. What is scary is the fact that you believe that your opinion is some sort of universal truth, and you contnue to dismiss all else, whereas it is clear that others do not agree with you. So what you're effectively putting across is the impression that you think you're right and that everybody else is wrong, and you won't even bother considering anybody elses point of view. I understand perfectly well your point of view and respect it, but I equally understand people who organise and participate in French championships. Try to understand that people who like closed competitions are not selfish and it is not about pride-based motivation. 
And why are you so hell bent on "ignorance"? I don't ignore the fact that you didn't make the final decision, but I am aware that you "inspired it". So save the "i laugh at your ignorance", it doesn't give you any extra credit
Anyway,It's good to hear that you still intend to come, I suppose I'll see you there : )


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## Tyson (May 22, 2008)

Objective fact: Open National Championships have been run in both 2004 and 2006. I agree, not everything I say is objective fact. But the statement above is an objective fact.


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## Tyson (May 22, 2008)

Jason said:


> and it is not about pride-based motivation.



Then what is it about? We've already had some people say that they're proud to be selfish.


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## rubikaz (May 22, 2008)

Tyson said:


> Objective fact: Open National Championships have been run in both 2004 and 2006. I agree, not everything I say is objective fact. But the statement above is an objective fact.



Yes, but this kind of objective fact cannot be used to determined if the championship should be open or closed. I think that here we only can use opinions.


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## Jason (May 22, 2008)

Tyson said:


> Jason said:
> 
> 
> > and it is not about pride-based motivation.
> ...



Well, yeah, it might be the case for some but not for the majority. It's about feeling part of a group. Sometimes you feel like going out to town with just your hockey team. Other times you feel like going out with no specific group. It doesn't mean you're intrinsically evil or anything, it means that you can identify to a subgroup, and it's a nice feeling. And just before people go on mad tangents, all this doesn't make you a Nazi or anything


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## Tyson (May 22, 2008)

I did not mean to imply that just because one person said something that it applied to everyone. Thanks for pointing that out, and in the future if it's ever confusing, please do understand I would not make that generalization.

But this feeling of a group, isn't that just a mind set? Can't you feel good if you were to think about it differently? It seems that this 'feeling' you talk about, or the atmosphere you want is something that's fabricated in the mind. Why do you feel the need to be exclusive? Can't you be special in both cases?

And this subgroup, by definition of a subgroup, can you still have your same subgroup regardless of who's there? The purpose of the European Championships is to crown a European Champion. Can't this be done in the presence of foreigners? How does the admittance of foreigners directly contract this mission?


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## nicoJ (May 22, 2008)

yeah, but as pocchman said

more american people rather than european people
slightly more, yes
i perfectlly agree with that

some things to say, anyway

1- why do you compare american people with european people?, please stephan, there won't be all american people. so i think we should compare EUROPEAN PEOPLE THAT WILL GO vs. AMERICAN PEOPLE THAT WILL GO. if america wins, i will PERFECTLLY agree that it HAS TO BE an open competition
but if they're coming 3, and +100 europeans... then.. i dont understand
it doesen't make sense...


2-i guess this is like a National competition in... Liechtenstein... and then everybody near there in germany, swiss people... will want to go
they all vote: +100 from both german countries and just 5 poor people from liechtenstein, that wanted their national competiton. finally is an open, and everybody that wants can go. OKAY, FINE, LET'S ALL FRENCH AND ITALIAN GUYS GO TOO!!! AND WHY NOT, AMERICAN PEOPLE WILL WANT!!

if it was an EUROPEAN, it should still being an european.
and as jason said, all this trouble is just to make 3 americans happy. 48% of the competitions around the world are in USA, so go to usa!!


PS: I DONT WANT TO OFFEND ANYBODY WHILE SAYING COUNTRY NAMES


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## Stefan (May 22, 2008)

I understand the hockey team group example. But "Europeans" aren't a closely connected group like that. And look at these two guys:

1) US citizen living in Europe with lots of connections to European cubers.
2) European citizen living in USA with no connections to European cubers.

Which one fits the "group" criterion better, concerning a European competition?


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## Jason (May 22, 2008)

Of course, the group is a totally artificial fabrication. But so is fashion. But it doesn't mean you have to give it all up. 
Yeah, of course you can crown a european champion with the presence of foreigners, it's just that people see it as forced upon them, and from the outside.


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## nicoJ (May 22, 2008)

i didnt think about that

but argentina's people living in spain, cannot go to nationals, they have no way
so, europeans living in USA can come, but american people living in bilbao, near the event, will have to wait for a American championship

im sorry, really sorry for such people, if i were they i would have be angry, but there's no other way

as Stuart Mill said, the greatest thing is the thing that makes more people happy


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## Erik (May 22, 2008)

Wow, did we really come to a point where we analyse who counts more as European and who not? 
Lets all vote, but let the Europeans vote about this. If some country votes for a president but the rest of the world doesn't like him, then the rest of the world has no influence. 
People from outside a group (All non-Europeans -especially American's it seems- can't change things within another group -Eureop- just because they have more people (size doesn't matter) or are convinced their idea is better... They should merely have the posibility to request a change, but can't decide about it...


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## Tyson (May 22, 2008)

nicoJ Kupfer said:


> as Stuart Mill said, the greatest thing is the thing that makes more people happy



So the United States should officially be a Christian nation?


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## rxdeath (May 22, 2008)

I don't see why if anybody splits from the WCA, it would mean that _I'm_ pathetic, but anyhow...
But there's probably a more important thing to all of this. What is scary is the fact that you believe that your opinion is some sort of universal truth, and you contnue to dismiss all else, whereas it is clear that others do not agree with you. So what you're effectively putting across is the impression that you think you're right and that everybody else is wrong, and you won't even bother considering anybody elses point of view. I understand perfectly well your point of view and respect it, but I equally understand people who organise and participate in French championships. Try to understand that people who like closed competitions are not selfish and it is not about pride-based motivation. 
And why are you so hell bent on "ignorance"? I don't ignore the fact that you didn't make the final decision, but I am aware that you "inspired it". So save the "i laugh at your ignorance", it doesn't give you any extra credit
Anyway,It's good to hear that you still intend to come, I suppose I'll see you there : )[/QUOTE]

i haven't got upset once during this whole exchange, because its not personal to me. the yahoo group has been around much longer than this website, so its hardly 'obscure', and i value it more than this forum, so i posted there. when i joined this discussion it was to defend the view that i presented. i meant the inclusive 'you' about anyone that breaks off it wasn't directed to specifically you. do i think anyone is the devil for wanting closed competitions? not really, just selfish.

i'm just defending my views and saying why i think they are so important, i don't ask you to accept them. if the wca agrees with me, then take it up with them if you think its not fair, but i'm not pushing my opinion on anyone else, at least anymore then they are doing to me, and everyone does to anyone when a debate happens. you say i don't understand, but once again understanding doesn't breed agreement--i completely understand and whole heartedly disagree. to compete in a worldwide club and not invite the world, isn't fair in my eyes, so i tried and will try to stop it. feel free to counter my efforts.

i would be glad to stop working for this if you can tell me how a closed competition is fair to the other cubers in the world, and just because others can have one doesn't mean it's fair, two wrongs don't make a right. fair is equal opportunity for everyone all the time, is that definition flawed? i don't know you mean by 'credit', but even if people don't agree with me, i know that i'm a valued member of the community and my words have as much credit as they need.


erik:
european votes don't count more than other cuber votes, this is a world wide organization as iv'e said 1000x. its not politics, a sport or anything its just people cubing. there is no europe in cubing. there is no usa. we are all just one big group. there are no 'outsiders'-- this is the elitist talk i hope to kill with my efforts. i didn't make the change i did as you said and requested it. since to those organizing the tournament it was the right idea, it was changed.

ps- as an arugument point, i'm just as genetically european as any of you.


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## Erik (May 22, 2008)

Tyson said:


> nicoJ Kupfer said:
> 
> 
> > as Stuart Mill said, the greatest thing is the thing that makes more people happy
> ...



No, and besides the fact that a nation can't be classified as Christian but if you really want it you could call it a nation with a Christian majority. 
Besides: - no Christian/Jewish/Muslim/Flying Spaghetti Monster nation at all -> nobody really angry
- yes Christian/Jewish/Muslim/Flying Spaghetti Monster nation -> Christians happy, the rest mad.
The total 'hapiness' will be when there is no decision made in which nation in is

And to continue on scenarios.. still my option 3 seems best to me...


@Clancy: if you want a change in the WCA way of doing things, this discussion would be on the WCA forum, but I didn't see any posts about that (when I looked yesterday) since 2007


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## Stefan (May 22, 2008)

Erik said:


> People from outside a group (All non-Europeans -especially American's it seems- can't change things within another group -Eureop- just because they have more people (size doesn't matter) or are convinced their idea is better... They should merely have the posibility to request a change, but can't decide about it...


Um, "should"? Are you saying this isn't exactly what happened?


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## Erik (May 22, 2008)

Maybe I should elaborate it further:
after they made that request (which has been done), it should be decided properly within that group if they like it. And I haven't seen a big majority of European people here which like the European Open 2008... (nor did I see the option before the change to vote)


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## Mike Hughey (May 22, 2008)

Fairness is a difficult thing to define.
http://dilbertblog.typepad.com/the_dilbert_blog/2007/04/fairness.html



rxdeath said:


> ps- as an arugument point, i'm just as genetically european as any of you.


I'm not - I'm a direct descendant of Pocahontas (so I'm at least .003% non-European).


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## Tyson (May 22, 2008)

Erik said:


> No, and besides the fact that a nation can't be classified as Christian but if you really want it you could call it a nation with a Christian majority.
> Besides: - no Christian/Jewish/Muslim/Flying Spaghetti Monster nation at all -> nobody really angry
> - yes Christian/Jewish/Muslim/Flying Spaghetti Monster nation -> Christians happy, the rest mad.
> The total 'hapiness' will be when there is no decision made in which nation in is
> ...



The fact that a nation can't be classified as Christian? What about The Islamic Republic of Iran?

Are you sure? If the Christians were happy, that would be 80%. Why don't we sacrifice the other 20% for the 80%? Do you really want to argue on total utility? Because if you want to go down this path, I expect that you have the proper background to support it.


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## Tyson (May 22, 2008)

Mike Hughey said:


> Fairness is a difficult thing to define.
> http://dilbertblog.typepad.com/the_dilbert_blog/2007/04/fairness.html
> 
> 
> ...



Me too. I'm probably about 0.003% European as well. The Dutch colonized Taiwan back in the 1600's. My grandfather had curly hair, with a slightly red tint.

Thank you for that link. And again, if you want to walk down this path of maximizing utility, I'm ready to argue this one. It's your call.


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## Erik (May 22, 2008)

Tyson said:


> Are you sure? If the Christians were happy, that would be 80%. Why don't we sacrifice the other 20% for the 80%? Do you really want to argue on total utility? Because if you want to go down this path, I expect that you have the proper background to support it.



I didn't see anywhere a thread about this and besides that, it doesn't interest me at all....


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## rxdeath (May 22, 2008)

Erik said:


> @Clancy: if you want a change in the WCA way of doing things, this discussion would be on the WCA forum, but I didn't see any posts about that (when I looked yesterday) since 2007



you seem to want to dictate where i post. i will post wherever i please, and it will be where i think it will have the most effect. don't try and punk me out erik, i won't have it. this is a fair discussion and if you don't like the result, don't turn it into a witch hunt for me because i'm the one that inspired the change. if you think you have a good argument attack my ideas, not anything else about me.


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## Tyson (May 22, 2008)

You propose pleasing the majority at the expense of the minority. Is this really what you want to do?


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## Tyson (May 22, 2008)

rxdeath said:


> Erik said:
> 
> 
> > @Clancy: if you want a change in the WCA way of doing things, this discussion would be on the WCA forum, but I didn't see any posts about that (when I looked yesterday) since 2007
> ...



The yahoo group has been around longer, and is arguably more convenient for someone who does most of their correspondence through gmail.


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## Erik (May 22, 2008)

rxdeath said:


> you seem to want to dictate where i post. i will post wherever i please, and it will be where i think it will have the most effect. don't try and punk me out erik, i won't have it. this is a fair discussion and if you don't like the result, don't turn it into a witch hunt for me because i'm the one that inspired the change. if you think you have a good argument attack my ideas, not anything else about me.



I'm not trying to 'punk you out' at all and I am holding a fair discussion, it's you who is trying to make me look like an infant little child. It's obvious imho that if you request the WCA to change something you ask it on the official place and not on a forum which most people don't check. I'm not directing you to it, nor do I give you a order to post it there. It's just the way it should be done. Or, at least (if it's so important to you that everbody knew about your opinion), I don't see why you didn't post it in as many forums as possible...


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## rubikaz (May 22, 2008)

rxdeath said:


> erik:
> european votes don't count more than other cuber votes, this is a world wide organization as iv'e said 1000x. its not politics, a sport or anything its just people cubing. *there is no europe in cubing*. there is no usa. we are all just one big group. there are no 'outsiders'-- this is the elitist talk i hope to kill with my efforts. i didn't make the change i did as you said and requested it. since to those organizing the tournament it was the right idea, it was changed.





There is no Europe in cubing..., European championship, uhm... there is something that I don't understand :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:. If you are right, then we should change the name of this championship: Bilbao Open.


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## Tyson (May 22, 2008)

Erik said:


> rxdeath said:
> 
> 
> > you seem to want to dictate where i post. i will post wherever i please, and it will be where i think it will have the most effect. don't try and punk me out erik, i won't have it. this is a fair discussion and if you don't like the result, don't turn it into a witch hunt for me because i'm the one that inspired the change. if you think you have a good argument attack my ideas, not anything else about me.
> ...



Hey Erik,

With all due respect, and I know I'm not the best example of this right now, some of us have jobs which make it difficult for us to check every forum in the world. Me personally, I have easy access to e-mail so I check yahoo groups.

I do have a job, and I do need to work to pay my rent. But I don't know that that makes my opinion any less valuable. I guarantee you won't be able to put in the same type of time and dedication into cubing when you finally have to start paying your own bills.


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## Tyson (May 22, 2008)

rubikaz said:


> rxdeath said:
> 
> 
> > erik:
> ...



Why? The European winners at this competition will be crowned as European Champions.


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## shelley (May 22, 2008)

Erik said:


> I'm not trying to 'punk you out' at all and I am holding a fair discussion, it's you who is trying to make me look like an infant little child. It's obvious imho that if you request the WCA to change something you ask it on the official place and not on a forum which most people don't check. I'm not directing you to it, nor do I give you a order to post it there. It's just the way it should be done. Or, at least (if it's so important to you that everbody knew about your opinion), I don't see why you didn't post it in as many forums as possible...



WCA members do read the Yahoo forum. I know at least Ron does. It's not like getting them to read it twice will make it any more or less "official." This isn't what the argument is about.


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## Erik (May 22, 2008)

You can't expect all cubers to check on the yahoo group all the time either right? (I personally don't have any reason to since I think most of what is posted there is not interesting to me) I don't have unlimited time either. I hope I'm mistaked I really do, but I somehow got the impression that you are kinda saying, I'm busy and I have a job and you don't. (just a question, I'm not saying you said it, it just looked like that to me)

@ Shelley, so ok.. we can contact and request changes in any way we like. Isn't the WCA still supposed to do what most cubers would like to do and at least do a thorrow investigation/poll/whatever?


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## Tyson (May 22, 2008)

Erik said:


> You can't expect all cubers to check on the yahoo group all the time either right? I don't have unlimited time either. I hope I'm mistaked I really do, but I somehow got the impression that you are kinda saying, I'm busy and I have a job and you don't. (just a question, I'm not saying you said it, it just looked like that to me)



That was in response to you saying that Clancy should have posted on every forum available. I could be wrong, but high school students generally don't have the same type of responsibility as someone living on their own. Generalization, of course and not applicable to everyone. Maybe you help pay your family's bills. I don't know.

But let me try and get an answer to a question. How will allowing foreigners into the European Championships inhibit the tournament's ability to crown the European Champion?


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## rxdeath (May 22, 2008)

Erik said:


> rxdeath said:
> 
> 
> > you seem to want to dictate where i post. i will post wherever i please, and it will be where i think it will have the most effect. don't try and punk me out erik, i won't have it. this is a fair discussion and if you don't like the result, don't turn it into a witch hunt for me because i'm the one that inspired the change. if you think you have a good argument attack my ideas, not anything else about me.
> ...



well i'm the one that runs my posts, i don't feel the need to post it all over the place, i choose the one spot i felt it would be effective, then when i saw where the biggest conversation was happening i went there. if you don't check that place i don't think that makes it less valid, or you can say most people don't go there, especially since its far more established than this forum. but this isn't the issue, the issue is why closed comps are unfair to the other cubers that are excluded, so where i post it has little to do with the topic.

to rubikaz- i think there should be no euro champion. no usa champion. no french champion. just a world champion, but one step at a time . what i said was a response it being recommended that only euro cubers should vote on this. we are all cubers together and everyone's opinion matters equally. honestly there is no vote necessary, the organizers that did it like this is better. the only vote left is the one in 5-6 month when i try and abolish these permanently.


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## rubikaz (May 22, 2008)

Tyson said:


> rubikaz said:
> 
> 
> > rxdeath said:
> ...





My answer was about *rxdeath* affirmation. He says that there is no Europe in cubing! So why we have to crown an European Champion? If there is no Europe in cubing, it don't make sense...


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## Tyson (May 22, 2008)

I mean, if you don't want to recognize a European Champion, that's your prerogative. I think it would be cool to have a European Champion as it would be cool to have a World Champion or a United States Champion.

You don't have to recognize it if you don't want to. Much like how you don't have to accept that WCA exists either.


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## Erik (May 22, 2008)

Tyson said:


> That was in response to you saying that Clancy should have posted on every forum available. I could be wrong, but high school students generally don't have the same type of responsibility as someone living on their own. Generalization, of course and not applicable to everyone. Maybe you help pay your family's bills. I don't know.
> 
> But let me try and get an answer to a question. How will allowing foreigners into the European Championships inhibit the tournament's ability to crown the European Champion?



First: the effort of going to 2 more websites and copy/paste your message that you really want to be heared is no where near the effort of checking all those messages from those forums everyday.

Second: the number of non-europeans doesn't matter at all! I've heared this question so many times, but it's totally irrelevant. It's the face that there CAN be loads of non-europeans.

Third: the fact you have more responsibility doesn't necessarily mean you (not you, but people in general) have less time for other things, nor does it mean that people with less responsibility have more time for other things...


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## Tyson (May 22, 2008)

Okay, I plead no contest to your responses. But please respond to the last thing I wrote. How will having foreigners inhibit the tournament's ability to crown a European Champion. I think perhaps we were getting side tracked with an argument I did not mean to start. My apologies. But please answer my question.

I don't want, nor do I intend, for any of this to be a personal attack. I'll do my best to keep it this way. I'm sure you will as well.


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## Mike Hughey (May 22, 2008)

Tyson, I think it's pretty clear that rubikaz wasn't saying there couldn't be a European Champion. He was simply pointing out that he is concerned that rxdeath is next ready to campaign to eliminate European Champions.

Edit: sorry - I got Erik and rubikaz mixed up.


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## shelley (May 22, 2008)

Erik said:


> First: the effort of going to 2 more websites and copy/paste your message that you really want to be heared is no where near the effort of checking all those messages from those forums everyday.



I hardly think that's necessary, seeing all the forums basically have the same readership. He wants to get heard by Ron and whoever makes the decisions for WCA, posting on the Yahoo group is sufficient, because Ron reads the Yahoo group.



Erik said:


> Second: the number of non-europeans doesn't matter at all! I've heared this question so many times, but it's totally irrelevant. It's the face that there CAN be loads of non-europeans.



There COULD have been loads of non-Americans at each of our US Nationals. There COULD have been loads of non-(insert country) citizens at the (insert country) Open. But there weren't. Not enough to make a difference. And you still haven't answered the question. Even if there are, how does that keep you from crowning a European champion?


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## Erik (May 22, 2008)

Tyson said:


> Okay, I plead no contest to your responses. But please respond to the last thing I wrote. How will having foreigners inhibit the tournament's ability to crown a European Champion. I think perhaps we were getting side tracked with an argument I did not mean to start. My apologies. But please answer my question.
> 
> I don't want, nor do I intend, for any of this to be a personal attack. I'll do my best to keep it this way. I'm sure you will as well.



Of course I don't want to be personal and I know/trust you don't want that too, I respect all of you as great persons/cubers! 

The presence of non-europeans within a European Championship is just not possible in my opinion. It's about the Europeans who want to decide which is best of Europe. Just like in a school you want to see who's best of that school without children from other school's want to join, although it's of course no problem if those children from other schools want to watch and laugh or play unofficial matches against children from the competing school.

Furthermore, I know it is in a way, but why is it so important to know why we don't want it? The fact that we don't want is should be enough...


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## rubikaz (May 22, 2008)

Tyson said:


> I mean, if you don't want to recognize a European Champion, that's your prerogative. I think it would be cool to have a European Champion as it would be cool to have a World Champion or a United States Champion.
> 
> You don't have to recognize it if you don't want to. Much like how you don't have to accept that WCA exists either.



No, I want an European champion. I have not said I don't want it. I wanted to say that with his affirmation it made not sense. 

By the same reason I want an European champion, I also prefer an European Championship only for Europeans as I also prefer a Spanish championship closed.

Why should we ban closed competitions? If you don't like a closed competitions, don't go to the competitions (if you can't go because it is closed, never mind, you don't like it and if you can go, you can decide by yourself if you want to go).

I think that closed competitions should be always allowed and European Championship should be closed.


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## rxdeath (May 22, 2008)

Mike Hughey said:


> Tyson, I think it's pretty clear that Erik wasn't saying there couldn't be a European Champion. He was simply pointing out that he is concerned that rxdeath is next ready to campaign to eliminate European Champions.



i never said i would work to do that, although i think its unnecessary, having some silly title doesn't affect anyone or their ability to compete in a tournament. please don't put words in my mouth. also don't just make it out like i hate europeans, i love/hate everyone equally, i could care less where you're from, if i did want to elimiate those titles, i would work against the USA one, NAR, AU, and every other one equally.

rubikaz: why don't you give a good reason for your opinion instead of just repeating it over and over. i have ideas and facts to back my position up, can you do the same? 

erik: what you 'want' isn't good enough, and if you can't provide a good reason why you want it, its just sinks your position even more. if you have a good one, tell me and maybe i'll change my mind. what is fair is the only option in my eyes. i could care less about personal desires, i'm only concered with equal opportunity for everyone.


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## shelley (May 22, 2008)

Erik said:


> The presence of non-europeans within a European Championship is just not possible in my opinion.



Why? There were non-Americans at all of our US National Championships. Everyone got along, everything went fine, we were still able to crown a US Champion.


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## Tyson (May 22, 2008)

But why does allowing foreigners inhibit the tournament's ability to crown a European Champion?


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## Erik (May 22, 2008)

shelley said:


> Erik said:
> 
> 
> > The presence of non-europeans within a European Championship is just not possible in my opinion.
> ...



I can't believe it.... again you are comparing the US to Europe, I won't explain again why this comparision is a questionable one to make...


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## Tyson (May 22, 2008)

But again, why does allowing foreigners inhibit the tournament's ability to crown a European Champion?


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## Worms (May 22, 2008)

rxdeath said:


> i think there should be no euro champion. no usa champion. no french champion.



I think that you must try to eliminate all the countrys and continentes of the world before..


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## rxdeath (May 22, 2008)

Erik said:


> shelley said:
> 
> 
> > Erik said:
> ...



nice way to dodge the point. its only as questionable as you make it, you're the one using imaginary lines to make your point. if you want to use such ideas...the us is about the same size, has the same ethnic diversity, and number of competitors, how is this comparison unfair? if you're only going to answer one question though, answer mine or tyson's its one in the same. how will forigners being there affect your ability to crown a EC?




Worms said:


> rxdeath said:
> 
> 
> > i think there should be no euro champion. no usa champion. no french champion.
> ...



good idea, do you know where i can get some plutonium?


----------



## Mike Hughey (May 22, 2008)

rxdeath said:


> Mike Hughey said:
> 
> 
> > Tyson, I think it's pretty clear that Erik wasn't saying there couldn't be a European Champion. He was simply pointing out that he is concerned that rxdeath is next ready to campaign to eliminate European Champions.
> ...



I'm sorry if I improperly put words in your mouth, but you did say this:


> i think there should be no euro champion. no usa champion. no french champion. just a world champion, but one step at a time .


I suppose you don't come out and say you're going to work to do it, but the implication is certainly there. The smiley really doesn't invalidate the implication. I can see how others would see this post on your part and figure that the removal of European Champions (and other regional/national champions) will be next.


----------



## shelley (May 22, 2008)

Worms said:


> rxdeath said:
> 
> 
> > i think there should be no euro champion. no usa champion. no french champion.
> ...



Don't be silly. There is no Australian Champion (in that there hasn't been an Australian Championship). Does that mean the country of Australia has been eliminated?


----------



## shelley (May 22, 2008)

Erik said:


> I can't believe it.... again you are comparing the US to Europe, I won't explain again why this comparision is a questionable one to make...



Perhaps you weren't paying attention.



shelley said:


> The reason we keep comparing our nationals with your continental level competitions is that in terms of geographic and population size (and cuber population), the US is more comparable to Europe than to, say, Hungary. It's not because we think the US is more important than any single European country.



By the way, you still haven't answered the question. How does the presence of foreign cubers keep you from crowning a European Champion? Squawk! Polly want a cracker!


----------



## rxdeath (May 22, 2008)

Mike Hughey said:


> rxdeath said:
> 
> 
> > Mike Hughey said:
> ...



the smile is because i can't imagine the kind of holy chaos that would erupt from people about this, if there is this reaction to just opposing closed touraments. i'm not a tyrant or an jerk, the title situation doesn't affect me, so i don't care.


----------



## rubikaz (May 22, 2008)

Tyson said:


> But why does allowing foreigners inhibit the tournament's ability to crown a European Champion?



These two things are independents. I want an European Champion and I also want an closed European championship.

Anycase...

There are some events with limited participants and without qualification round. So foreigners can avoid some European participates in these events and maybe he is very good and he could win some of these events but he had not participated before. I think that it is a good answer to your question. On the other hand, in my opinion this question is not important.


----------



## AvGalen (May 22, 2008)

Shelley:


> The United States has local/state/regional/national level championships, both open and closed, for many sports and activities as well. It's not a foreign concept to us.


 I know you do have all of those, but that list ends on the national level. For Europeans all those levels exist + the European level. I know for some sports the US has continental levels, but mostly the level goes from National straight to World. That is why the European level might be harder for you to understand. Europe is still trying to create an identity and in many aspects (political, monetary, economical) this has still gotten a long way to go, but when it comes to sport an overwhelming majority enjoys the idea of comparing "their" team to "other European countries" team. I personally think the idea of "our" team is silly, but whenever I hear of someone Dutch performing really well I can't help feeling a bit proud. To sum it up: It's hard to understand why a (closed) EC has such a high appeal, but the simple fact is that it does. (but please come to the EO)

rxdeath:


> i merely showed how rules != fair by any means, and to say that rule is ridiculous and other competitions should be closed is different, i think is flawed.


I read this sentence at least ten times, but I don't understand what you mean


> exclusion is exclusion and they should all be stopped


No they shouldn't. Or do you think women soccer should allow male players, stop having paralympics (or allow everyone to compete), etc. There are many reasons for exclusion and geography, selfishness and pride are just some of them. 

Tyson 1:


> YES! Lars V.? That completes my plan! I've only dreamed that the three of you would come.


Indeed Lars V. (aka jazzthief) We have discussed going to the US Open and the only thing we didn't like was how the planetickets were much more expensive compared to Chicago. But I don't think that will stop him or me, so I think your plan might work. But why the three of us? What about the other foreigners like Matt and Jessica Walter, Dave Campbell, Sven Gowal, Anders Larsson, Yiding Hao and Hugo Hinojos-Kabata? (I can't say I remember the last two)

Tyson 2: To protect minorities from unwanted changes a veto is a usefull tool. (It can also be a real pain in the "fleshy part of the human body that you sit on")

And please everyone, stop comparing US to Europe. US is a country, Europe is .... not.

Clancy has done what he thinks was necessary and got his wish. He can now go to the European Open. But he still hasn't said he will actually go and hasn't registered so far. Who is actually going to come?

The question "But again, why does allowing foreigners inhibit the tournament's ability to crown a European Champion?" is a good one and my answer is: "It doesn't".
But the point of having an EC is not to crown a European Champion. It is to have a EC. Crowning a European Champion is just a part of that. Getting a European feeling is another part that has been reduced in my opinion.
So one more time: Having a European Open is a good thing and I hope many non-Europeans will come. But having a closed EC is also a good thing and that is no longer there.


----------



## Tyson (May 22, 2008)

rubikaz said:


> Tyson said:
> 
> 
> > But why does allowing foreigners inhibit the tournament's ability to crown a European Champion?
> ...



The first two sentences you say are merely your desires and don't really reflect anything. Fortunately, I only want a sandwich, and I can have that rather easily.

Is it actually possible that enough foreigners sign up that the top Europeans can't participate? If this is your concern, then wouldn't the solution to be have different participation caps for foreigners and Europeans?

How is this question not important? Isn't it the crux of everything?


----------



## Erik (May 22, 2008)

shelley said:


> Erik said:
> 
> 
> > I can't believe it.... again you are comparing the US to Europe, I won't explain again why this comparision is a questionable one to make...
> ...



on terms of geographic and population.. etc etc... it's not those terms that define a continent, the USA and Russia should be a continent too then it's big, and it's got loads of people... so now I ask you: why isn't this the case?


----------



## Mike Hughey (May 22, 2008)

rxdeath said:


> > I'm sorry if I improperly put words in your mouth, but you did say this:
> >
> >
> > > i think there should be no euro champion. no usa champion. no french champion. just a world champion, but one step at a time .
> ...



I think it's good that we clarified that. Smilies can mean too many different things.


----------



## Rama (May 22, 2008)

rxdeath: First of all, do you ever use capital letters?
Second of all, shouldn't you be also complaining about National/Continental Records on this thread, since you have the fullest attention here anyway.

Tyson: Maybe the fact that the foreigner could beat everyone and the European Champion is a bit less Champion.

Ego, selfish, what more fancy words do you have for us? 

Shelley: Don't compare the United States competitions with European Competitions.
NO MA'AM.


----------



## Tyson (May 22, 2008)

AvGalen said:


> The question "But again, why does allowing foreigners inhibit the tournament's ability to crown a European Champion?" is a good one and my answer is: "It doesn't".
> But the point of having an EC is not to crown a European Champion. It is to have a EC. Crowning a European Champion is just a part of that. Getting a European feeling is another part that has been reduced in my opinion.
> So one more time: Having a European Open is a good thing and I hope many non-Europeans will come. But having a closed EC is also a good thing and that is no longer there.



How does having foreigners present at the European Championships take away from the European feeling? Do you feel less European if you're around non-Europeans?

The United States is also made up of states, all of which can be very different. I think this comparison between Country and Collection of Countries is again, mostly language.


----------



## Tyson (May 22, 2008)

Rama said:


> Tyson: Maybe the fact that the foreigner could beat everyone and the European Champion is a bit less Champion.



Why would you be less of a Champion? You would be the European Champion. Clearly, you wouldn't be the Champion of the World, but that's not what's being decided at the European Championships.


----------



## shelley (May 22, 2008)

So the point of having an EC is to exclude foreigners. Glad we've cleared that up.


----------



## Erik (May 22, 2008)

Tyson said:


> The United States is also made up of states, all of which can be very different. I think this comparison between Country and Collection of Countries is again, mostly language.


I think it's more cultural and political than it is a language matter personally... but we can make another discussion about that....


----------



## rubikaz (May 22, 2008)

Tyson said:


> Is it actually possible that enough foreigners sign up that the top Europeans can't participate? If this is your concern, then wouldn't the solution to be have different participation caps for foreigners and Europeans?



Example, 4x4 blindfold, the maximum number or participants is 12. Each foreign that get a place for participate will quit an European from this list. And you don't know if someone, that have not tried to solved 4x4 blind in a competition before, can beat now the WR...

About the other question, maybe there is not enough time for it...


----------



## rxdeath (May 22, 2008)

AvGalen said:


> Shelley:
> 
> 
> > The United States has local/state/regional/national level championships, both open and closed, for many sports and activities as well. It's not a foreign concept to us.
> ...



all the things you say are important are still there and will only be diminished if you allow it to be. to me you say 'if foreigners are present, it ruins our competition' this is a horrid thing to hear. what is the 'european feeling'? having no one else but europeans around makes this? its very elitist sounding and in a world organization i think its a sad joke.

the rule thing was if i set up rules to make it so only me/my friends can come and win, its just the same as if you guys have closed competitions. sadly i don't care about europe's political, economical, social processes for this debate. it has nothing to do with what is fair to the world community, and the comparison between the us and europe on a cuber level is very even in my opinion.

i meant all exclusion should be stopped in this cubing sport, i wasn't really taking a jab at the special olympics or anything like that, sorry if i wasn't clear.


erik: the governmental and political influences have little to do with this debate, you're argument is based off a bunch of imaginary lines. if you take away the ideas of countrys states etc (which is acceptable since we're a world community) we're almost exactly the same


----------



## Tyson (May 22, 2008)

So then what's wrong with my solution? Why not simply exclude foreigners from the 12 available European spots?

But on another note, that's also an issue with the organizer. You'll see at US Nationals, there isn't a limitation on the number of spots. Instead of deciding who gets to compete based on when they sign up, everyone gets to compete. They simply have to qualify based on achievement.

There are many solutions to this problem. And I think most of them have to do with the structure of the tournament, more than it has to do with the open or closed nature of the tournament.


----------



## shelley (May 22, 2008)

AvGalen said:


> > exclusion is exclusion and they should all be stopped
> 
> 
> No they shouldn't. Or do you think women soccer should allow male players, stop having paralympics (or allow everyone to compete), etc. There are many reasons for exclusion and geography, selfishness and pride are just some of them.



Your first two examples of exclusion are for the purposes of leveling the playing field. Men are generally stronger than women, so it makes sense to separate their sporting events. Paralympics, obvious. There are good reasons for exclusion. Selfishness and pride are not among them.


----------



## rxdeath (May 22, 2008)

Rama said:


> rxdeath: First of all, do you ever use capital letters?
> Second of all, shouldn't you be also complaining about National/Continental Records on this thread, since you have the fullest attention here anyway.



my capitalization really has a lot to do with this discussion thanks for your insightful contribution. 

i would complain if i thought that titles affected anyone else, but since titles are just something people make up in their mind, i don't care.


----------



## shelley (May 22, 2008)

Erik said:


> on terms of geographic and population.. etc etc... it's not those terms that define a continent, the USA and Russia should be a continent too then it's big, and it's got loads of people... so now I ask you: why isn't this the case?



If we put aside political and social issues that have no place in cubing anyway, how is US vs Europe not a fair comparison in terms of cubing? We have comparable populations, comparable cuber populations, and for a US Championship and European Championship you will have people traveling about the same distance. If Russia had similar overall population and cuber population as the US, I'd be making that comparison as well.


----------



## rubikaz (May 22, 2008)

Tyson said:


> So then what's wrong with my solution? Why not simply exclude foreigners from the 12 available European spots?



I think that the Championship should be closed but if not, we should do what you say but in this case, not more competitors should be accepted. If we accepted more non-European competitors and not more European competitors..., uhm, I think it is wrong.

On the other hand, now 13 Europeans want compete in 4x4 blindfold, only 4 of them have been accepted and only 4 Europeans have solved 4x4 blindfold before. Why? I think that the 12 available spots includes foreign cubers...


----------



## Bryan (May 22, 2008)

OK, I see that you have to ask questions with nothing else for them to be answered:

1) If holding a closed competition is so important, what are you willing to give up in order to have them?

2) Are all the Europeans mad about the organizer's decision, or are there just a few vocal ones?

3) What do people really do with any of the national titles? If in the next competition someone beats them by a large margin, do they explain to people "Well, yeah, there's another guy from here that's faster, but I won a competition 18 months ago because he had a scheduling conflict, so I'm still the champ. He has beaten me in every competition we've both been at though."


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## Tyson (May 22, 2008)

Well, of course it would be silly to accept more foreign competitors than European competitors. That's just not the demographic that would attend. If the demographic were different though, then we would have to reconsider.

I'm sorry, I don't quite understand your second paragraph.


----------



## Stefan (May 22, 2008)

Bryan said:


> 2) Are all the Europeans mad about the organizer's decision, or are there just a few vocal ones?


Create a poll?


----------



## Tyson (May 22, 2008)

If I created a poll on "Is Stefan Pochmann the true god?" I don't know that opponents would vote. It'd be slightly biased.


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## rubikaz (May 22, 2008)

Tyson said:


> Well, of course it would be silly to accept more foreign competitors than European competitors. That's just not the demographic that would attend. If the demographic were different though, then we would have to reconsider.
> 
> I'm sorry, I don't quite understand your second paragraph.



You have not understood it because I have written it in a horrible way. I try to explain it again:

Suppose that the 12 spots are first reserved for European cubers

Number of spots: 12

There are 4 Europeans that have solved 4x4 blind before so they can compete. You have to reserve 4 for them.

Then there are 8 spots for new cubers. First day of registration 6 cubers wanted to compete in 4x4 blindfold. 2 of them had solved 4x4 blind before. The other 4 no. There are still 8 free spots and only one of them gets one. Why? I think that the organization have reserved some spots for foreign cubers that have solved 4x4 blind before.


----------



## Tyson (May 22, 2008)

Why not just have 12 spots for Europeans, and 6 for foreigners. The foreigners don't have anything to do with the 12 spots for Europeans.

Though again, I don't think that the competition should be setting a number of spots. It should simply be on accomplishment, and not who signs up first. What do you think about that? The competition of course has to save time, but I think it's better to do it with qualification times than it is to set aside a certain number of spots.

What if 200 Europeans (slow ones) took all the spots, and all the good cubers couldn't compete? (This is of course, a different issue, but I'm wondering your opinion.)


----------



## Tyson (May 22, 2008)

rubikaz said:


> Tyson said:
> 
> 
> > Well, of course it would be silly to accept more foreign competitors than European competitors. That's just not the demographic that would attend. If the demographic were different though, then we would have to reconsider.
> ...



I guess what I'm also trying to say is that if this is a problem, then maybe there shouldn't be a limit to how many people can sign up for an event. This limit of N people can sign up for Event X causes similar problems, irregardless on the open or closed status of the competition.


----------



## Rama (May 22, 2008)

rxdeath said:


> my capitalization really has a lot to do with this discussion thanks for your insightful contribution.



But offcourse: Europe, '. Well', 'I', Erik, you just name it. 



We just want a closed competition, if you want to experience a nice European competition just go to the Belgium Open, Dutch Open, German Open where most of us will be and don't come with the story ''I want to meet all of you in one competition'', you know that some cubers can't attend a competition due to school, etc ....

I have to say that you guys make me wanna 'Shout'.


----------



## Tyson (May 22, 2008)

Rama said:


> rxdeath said:
> 
> 
> > my capitalization really has a lot to do with this discussion thanks for your insightful contribution.
> ...



Hi Rama,

I feel that your post here does nothing to further the discussion. Don't you think you just repeated what has already been said over and over again?

Why do you want a closed competition? What will a closed competition accomplish for you that is not possible in on open competition? Why can't feelings of national pride and camaraderie be possible in the presence of foreigners?


----------



## rxdeath (May 22, 2008)

Rama said:


> rxdeath said:
> 
> 
> > my capitalization really has a lot to do with this discussion thanks for your insightful contribution.
> ...



it has nothing to do what i want, it has to do with being fair for all. it happens i support that view. in everyone's argument/rants they haven't refuted the fact that open is fair, closed is not. because you 'want' something doesn't make it right or fair, and the best way to do things is the way they should be done. i've already said i won't compete if i'm there, to prove my point that its not personal it about everyone else, not me. arnaud admitted there's no good reason to why the euro champ can't be crowned, so that point is dead. so i don't even know what we're really debating about, just you guys don't want foreigners there, because you want to have some elistist cube meeting where you exclude people? thank goodness i helped kill that silly idea.


----------



## Ou (May 22, 2008)

I think the idea of having a European-only competition can be likened to deporting immigrants from Europe because you want a certain demographic for your continent. 

Cubers should have no reason to be biased against other nationalities. Even though Yu Nakajima can be exemplified here, there is no established fact that people of a certain nationality cube better/differently.

And, as it's been said, the European Championship is quite different from smaller competitions where less people will be. On that same course of logic, many American cubers could have skipped the WC2007 and only attended the US Open for the same experience, but no person who could have gone to WC2007 would have done that.

A European champ will have his fame, and non-European cubers will have their competition. I don't see the *huge* issue with that.


----------



## joey (May 22, 2008)

In response to Bryan: I'm european (UKian), and I want it open.

[size=-10]as long as I get a comission from all foriegn cubers[/size]


----------



## nicoJ (May 22, 2008)

mr shelley: if you get a prize for posting lots of posts in the same thread, thank to erik that was who created it

and to mr. quotes man (rxdeath): if we do a World championship, and martians want to compete.. should we allow them?

i guess not. maybe they are better, maybe they win, and though we cannot call them "world champions" they will get angry, and there will be trouble

i do not want any trouble in the PALE BLUE DOT
that isnt anything more than a single planet in the whole universe


----------



## rubikaz (May 22, 2008)

Tyson said:


> I guess what I'm also trying to say is that if this is a problem, then maybe there shouldn't be a limit to how many people can sign up for an event. This limit of N people can sign up for Event X causes similar problems, irregardless on the open or closed status of the competition.



The problem is that these categories will be the same day that the qualification round of other puzzles so if you want to add a qualification round for it you should use the previous day???. The best option is qualification round for these events, of course, but maybe there is not enough time. Maybe there will be a problem irregardless on the open or closed status, but foreign participation can be an extra problem here.

Anycase, my opinion about an open or closed championship is independent of this problem. It is only one more point.


----------



## Ou (May 22, 2008)

Martians may or may not be superior to humans. Martian Manhunter would certainly beat us all in cubing. 

That being said, since we do not believe certain nationalities are intrinsically better at cubing than others, you cannot compare the exclusion of extraterrestrials.


----------



## rxdeath (May 22, 2008)

hmmm. well i know all those words but i've never seen them in that order before. maybe you could relay your position to someone with stronger english skills, and have them post for you. i don't know what you're saying here, i caught the martian part, and that's so silly i won't bother responding except to say, when martians show up would be the time i start thinking about this. also, i assume they would acutally be different that us, so the comparison doesn't hold as it does to all human beings with the same genetic makeup

ps -- shelly is a ms


----------



## nicoJ (May 22, 2008)

i said martians because i have nothing against americans, and i dont want to name them in my comparations


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## shelley (May 22, 2008)

nicoJ Kupfer said:


> mr shelley: if you get a prize for posting lots of posts in the same thread, thank to erik that was who created it



First of all, Mr?

Second, why are you singling me out? Have I expressed any sort of irrelevant desire to have many posts in one thread? Besides, Tyson, Clancy and Erik himself have posted more than I have. Post count, by the way, was a separate argument that has already taken place elsewhere in this forum and we don't need any of that here.


----------



## Tyson (May 22, 2008)

rubikaz said:


> Tyson said:
> 
> 
> > I guess what I'm also trying to say is that if this is a problem, then maybe there shouldn't be a limit to how many people can sign up for an event. This limit of N people can sign up for Event X causes similar problems, irregardless on the open or closed status of the competition.
> ...



I understand that, but I'm trying to show that this tournament could be arranged in such a way that your primary concerns are addressed.


----------



## Gprano (May 22, 2008)

I don't think qualifications rounds for the big blinds events are good ideas, because that's very long, and there is many DNF. (and the final is best of 2 too)
The way would be to accept more competitors in the final, but that need time too...

I think this topic begin to be annoying, the opinions are the same since 35 pages and everybody understood them. 

Sorry for the bad english


----------



## Tyson (May 22, 2008)

Gprano said:


> I don't think qualifications rounds for the big blinds events are good ideas, because that's very long, and there is many DNF. (and the final is best of 2 too)
> The way would be to accept more competitors in the final, but that need time too...
> 
> I think this topic begin to be annoying, the opinions are the same since 35 pages and everybody understood them.
> ...



Hi Gprano,

I agree. For big cube BLD events, I'm not sure why there needs to be qualification. Furthermore, I think it's an event where you can put all the competitors in a room, and judge them all at the same time. I don't think running the event with 5 people and running the event with 20 people takes four times the number of resources, likely, it's maybe just an extra person or so.

I don't know why they have limits on big cube BLD. I feel that if I were organizing this competition, I would be able to accommodate everyone for this event, but then again, I don't know how the organizing team is doing so. Maybe they have a reason for this restriction.


----------



## Gprano (May 22, 2008)

For the number of persons, that's maybe because with the new rules (since MK...) you need a judge to hold the paper for each person.


----------



## bamilan (May 22, 2008)

Sorry for misunderstanding :S
I am not really interested in the prize money, but I don't want to tell to the TVs that I am the european champion, but I could not reach the final...(I won't be a european champion).

I am really sorry for my opinion to non-european speedcubers. But you should understand me (us) 


Milan


----------



## Tyson (May 22, 2008)

Milan, what is the probability that not a single European makes it into the final as a result of foreign competition? If you want to bet on this, make me a market.

This situation you propose is very unlikely to the point that it is near impossible. I've got some good money I'd put up on this one if you want. Make me a market on the odds that you would be willing to bet with.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market_maker

I will play in EUR or HUF. Whatever you want.

Milan, I understand you. And I know you are a talented cuber, but your post really reflects some very shallow thinking. Honestly, is this 'problem' that you bring up have even the remotest of probabilities of happening?


----------



## Mike Hughey (May 22, 2008)

Gprano said:


> For the number of persons, that's maybe because with the new rules (since MK...) you need a judge to hold the paper for each person.



You may instead use a stand or other object to block the cube:

B4c) During the full solve the judge must keep a sheet of paper or a similar object between the competitor's face and the puzzle, unless the puzzle is in a position where peeking at the puzzle is not possible.

We used ordinary music stands for this in Chattahoochee (they qualify as "a similar object"), and it worked great! No need for everyone to have someone holding a piece of paper during the solve. For me the hard part here is manning all the stopwatches.


----------



## Worms (May 22, 2008)

Tyson said:


> Milan, what is the probability that not a single European makes it into the final as a result of foreign competition?



Ok, now is not probable, but can you assure that in 10 year the TOP50 are not all non-european?? this will be a big problem, all european eliminated in the first round


----------



## Tyson (May 22, 2008)

Worms said:


> Tyson said:
> 
> 
> > Milan, what is the probability that not a single European makes it into the final as a result of foreign competition?
> ...



Do you really lack that much confidence in Europeans?

If this were actually a problem, again, it's nothing more than just a mental process to separate in your heads. The final round would really be the round before all the Europeans got knocked out. The round after that is really just to discern the foreigners, who in your mind, will be crushing all the Europeans in 10 years. I find this impossible. Europe has some of the most talented cubers in the world.

But... look how silly your line of reasoning has gotten. You really believe in 10 years, there won't be a single European in the top 50 of cubing? Do you really believe this? Again, if you do, let's bet money. I make a living off of people who mis-value things and probabilities.


----------



## rubikaz (May 22, 2008)

Tyson said:


> I don't know why they have limits on big cube BLD. I feel that if I were organizing this competition, I would be able to accommodate everyone for this event, but then again, I don't know how the organizing team is doing so. Maybe they have a reason for this restriction.



I think that they are going to accept everyone but since they don't know how many competitors will register they want to be cautious.


----------



## Tyson (May 22, 2008)

I think for the most part, people are making honest attempts at this. In the United States, we do have one competitor who I don't allow to compete in anything but 3x3x3 speed solve because he can't BLD solve and gets up and wastes 10 minutes on the timers.

Even so, I think you could still run it... unless 80 competitors sign up for 4x4x4 BLD, you will be fine. And if they do, well, you'll have more time because all these people will miss other aspects of the competition.

It's a real jerk thing to do... if you try 4x4x4 BLD for the first time in competition without spending effort on it at home.


----------



## shelley (May 22, 2008)

Hey, idea. I see that a lot of Europeans are still insistent on a closed European Championship. Not much we can do about this one now that it's open, but future championships can be open only to people who have qualified at a national level competition in Europe earlier that year. So for instance the French Open and the Dutch Open and the German Open and all the other national level competitions can send x of their top cubers to the European Championships, and x can be as big or small as you like. As the years go by and cubing continues to grow in popularity, this would also help keep big competitions manageable.

That way the European Championships can actually be a championship event rather than just a competition that's larger than usual and arbitrarily called the European Championships. And you can have your closed competition, but it will be closed based on merit and not citizenship, which is something I think people would be more inclined to respect.


----------



## Erik (May 22, 2008)

shelley said:


> Hey, idea. I see that a lot of Europeans are still insistent on a closed European Championship. Not much we can do about this one now that it's open


This is not true I think since it was originally a closed competition untill a few days ago, if it can be changed that easy, it's no problem to change it back. (which is made clear now, most Europeans really want to have!!!!!!!!!)

@ Shelley, your idea for the future is nice, I support it. Only how are we going to get rid of the fact that it's easier to qualify being a cuber from Lichtenstein than it is to be from Holland or America or Japan?


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## Tim Reynolds (May 22, 2008)

I like Shelley's idea. Maybe, though, as a variation, say that the top 40 (or any other number, but not too huge) people who get 3x3 averages in any competition in Europe between the last European Championship and this one qualify for 3x3. The side events have similar qualification procedures--the top x people who got averages (or single in bld) since the last European Championship qualify. It is very possible to qualify in a side event but not 3x3.

Something similar could be implemented for Worlds, and maybe various nationals as well.


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## rxdeath (May 22, 2008)

yes but the organizers agree this is better regardless of whoever's personal desires, so i'd be surprised if it was changed back. also, i haven't heard all of europe say they hate, i see as many serious people against as there are serious people for it, so i don't think you're qualified to make broad statements and speak for the whole EU.

i would support it if competitions were closed based on personal abilities, but that's it. the only reason i feel this is fair is because everyone has the opportunity to qualify, but i don't know if this will make up for the fact that no geographic region should have its own closed tourney and not allow others to compete, any person should have the right to compete in any european championship or american, french, spanish, etc.. so i don't know how a foreigner would 'qualify' for the european championships.


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## TobiasDaneels (May 22, 2008)

I'm (as a European cuber) quite neutral in the discussion wether it has to be open or closed. I can't but feeling we should allow people to organise closed competitions but I won't mind charing EC 2008 with non-european cubers as it would be a rare chance to meet these guys.

I do have an oponion about wether by who and for what reasons this discussion should be held, but I'd love to discuss this in a bar in Bilbao, with the main caractars in this 'who's right, who's wrong battle', while sharing a beer (Mahou, Estrella, San Miguel,...). And I am definitly willing to change my mind if I feel someone else has better arguments about this.

I hope to see as many of you guys as possible in Bilbao, both European and non-European. But for those who are willing to come, I'd suggest to enroll as fast as possible, since there are allready 70 competitors registered.

Greetings from Brussels, Belgium, Europe.


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## rxdeath (May 22, 2008)

good show tobias, i think you showed both sides a good example. ....well i don't drink, but i would gladly make an exception share a beer with these gentlemen who i've shared a battle of opinions with. hell if i even actually make it, i hope edouard, erik, arnaud, rama, and rubikaz will let me buy them the first round .


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## Erik (May 22, 2008)

lol You know I don't have anything against you coming! And of course you may give as many rounds as you like


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## Stefan (May 22, 2008)

Erik said:


> it was originally a closed competition untill a few days ago, if it can be changed that easy, it's no problem to change it back. (which is made clear now, *most Europeans really want to have!!!!!!!!!*)


How do you know that? I think *at most* a dozen have said so. Maybe if you multiply that by the number of your exclamation points.


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## rxdeath (May 22, 2008)

haha i'm glad you are willing to tolerate my presence, especially when i'm buying beer....i appreciate it . 

on a special important side note, i want to say i've been privileged to call someone my friend for at least a year now, and i sincerely hope that hasn't been damaged in any way, because i sincerely value your friendship doudou.


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## Tyson (May 22, 2008)

shelley said:


> Hey, idea. I see that a lot of Europeans are still insistent on a closed European Championship. Not much we can do about this one now that it's open, but future championships can be open only to people who have qualified at a national level competition in Europe earlier that year. So for instance the French Open and the Dutch Open and the German Open and all the other national level competitions can send x of their top cubers to the European Championships, and x can be as big or small as you like. As the years go by and cubing continues to grow in popularity, this would also help keep big competitions manageable.
> 
> That way the European Championships can actually be a championship event rather than just a competition that's larger than usual and arbitrarily called the European Championships. And you can have your closed competition, but it will be closed based on merit and not citizenship, which is something I think people would be more inclined to respect.



I would propose a variation of that idea. So let's take a future European Championships for example. Certain events in the year leading up to the event are designated as qualification events. This events would probably be...

UK Open, German Open, Swedish Open, Belgium Open, Polish Open, Shelley Open, etc.

When you go to a qualifying event, your performances are recorded and ranked against everyone else who went to the qualifying event. And then, we would say the top 64 3x3x3 speed solve averages from these competitions would be invited to the championships.

I think if someone is willing to travel all over to try and get more attempts to qualify, that would be fine.

So the United States would also have something similar, at least each region would have its own qualifier. These would probably be the San Francisco competition in January, Berkeley Open, San Diego Open, a Caltech Spring competition, something in Denver, and maybe three on the East Coast. I would also allow German Open, and other European Opens to serve as qualifiers for the national championships... maybe.

This is how the US Chess Championships works kind of... you can either qualify through ELO rating, or you can qualify through certain qualifying events.


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## Worms (May 22, 2008)

Tyson said:


> Do you really lack that much confidence in Europeans?
> 
> If this were actually a problem, again, it's nothing more than just a mental process to separate in your heads. The final round would really be the round before all the Europeans got knocked out. The round after that is really just to discern the foreigners, who in your mind, will be crushing all the Europeans in 10 years. I find this impossible. Europe has some of the most talented cubers in the world.
> 
> But... look how silly your line of reasoning has gotten. You really believe in 10 years, there won't be a single European in the top 50 of cubing? Do you really believe this? Again, if you do, let's bet money. I make a living off of people who mis-value things and probabilities.



It's only an example, not an affirmation, I can't bet, sorry (with TOP10 maybe ) Everybody know that top50 with 0 european is quite difficult, but a big percent of non european in topX is very probable
now in WCA:
european: 938 persons
non-european: 2078 persons

now in the world (aproximately):
european: 800 millons
non-european 5700 millons

In top100 3x3 average, there are 72 non-europeans and 28 europeans

Every year there are more non-european cubers than european.
Is logical that it in a future it will be more difficult to an european enter in world championship final. or doesn't you lack that much confidence in non-europeans? 

Europe is for european, north america is for north american, the european championship is for european, the north american championship is for north american. The unique solution, is change the name of the championship, it's a very easy and intelligent solution, not?

sorry but i finish my discution here (i think ), it's dificult to me speak in english, and this thread is very very very long  and it might never finish 

I hope to met you all in spain, because I think that it will be an open for everyone. Thanks to Ron, David Calvo, 7town, goliath games, etc that are organising a fantastic championship for free for us

rxdeath sorry for my sarcastics messages

je veut aussi une bierre tobias!!!!


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## Dene (May 22, 2008)

Yea so on the topic of Utilitarianism, Hume>Mill.


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## Pedro (May 23, 2008)

well, I've read the whole thread (why, btw? ), and I'd like to say a few things

how many non-europeans do you guys expect to be there?
how many top-class ones?
do you really think Nakajima or Jasom Baum or Harris would go there simply to "beat the europeans" and "mess up with their competition"?
how likely is that to happen?

other thing...
as Tyson said many times, just give titles/medals/money to the europeans...let other people go there, have fun, set official times, NRs or WRs, but they don't "win" the competition

well, of course this is just my point of view...

another thing...

Clancy is saying about being fairer, giving all the people the same opportunity
of course, not everybody has the same opportunity to go to Bilbao and compete. Maybe some spanish guys can't afford the trip or have other things to do...
so, if we can do something to make the opportunities a bit more equal, why not?


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## KJiptner (May 23, 2008)

The question that really punishes me all the time, since this discussion came up:

Should we allow Martians to compete at the World Championship?


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## Pedro (May 23, 2008)

KJiptner said:


> The question that really stalkes me all the time, since this discussion came up:
> 
> Should we allow Marsians to compete at the World Championship?



well, if it's "World" championship, no, we shouldn't

if we change the name to "Universe champ", maybe


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## anders (May 23, 2008)

This discussion shows the health of our society, in the sense that we can still discuss this matter in a somewhat civilised manner. The debate is still quite decent despite the fact that there is a strong disagreement in the subject itself. Congratulations to ourselves (even if I, personally, miss the carrot argument – Anssi, please resolved the issue by introducing a new and refreshing vegetable! .

On the other hand, I miss a great part of the cubing society in the discussion. Where is the Asian opinion (Japanese, Korean, Chinese, Pilipino, Indian…)? They do not contribute to this discussion that is held in English, but they are a significantly part of our community. Another language/nationality barrier issue is the opinion of the cubers in Spain. What do they think about the discussion regarding the competition that is going to be held in their country? (Of course, I know that there is no “Asian opinion” or ”Spannish cubers’ opinion”, but there are opinions from cubers in Asia and from cubers in Spain, not quite expressed here. Furthermore, Spain is not homogenous… No nit-picking regarding this, please.)

My personal opinion is the following. I have the uttermost sympathy for the position of Stefan Pochmann, that it, the only important results are the personal best and the world record; all other discriminations are artificial (I hope that is a correct interpretation of your position, Stefan). In the spirit of this, all competitions that is held in Sweden and that I am responsible for will be OPEN. On the other hand, my gut feeling is that Euro 2008 should be closed. And in this case, I trust my gut feeling (as long as the WCA accepts closed competitions… . There is history, there is culture. Shelley, Tyson, et al, I would love to have a discussion with you about my gut feeling regarding a closed EC; it’s a non-trivial matter and most of the arguments have already been mentioned in this thread; let’s have it over a pint next time we meet (as invited in previous posts)!

As for my personal situation: I am most grateful that I was allowed to compete in US (Open) Championships 2007 even though I’m not an US citizen, but I would never demand any rights to participate. I will not be able to compete in the European (Open?!?) Championships 2008 in Derio due to personal reasons.

(I cannot resist putting some petrol on the fire: an inclusion of EC in WC had been common practice in ice hockey…)

As a bottom-line, we should never forget the mission of WCA: "more competitions in more countries with more people and more fun, under fair conditions", and personally, I stress the fun part. If it’s not fun anymore, there will be no one left to organise competitions.


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## rxdeath (May 23, 2008)

KJiptner said:


> The question that really punishes me all the time, since this discussion came up:
> 
> Should we allow Martians to compete at the World Championship?



well if you're serious..i think that world championship would be fair to exclude martians because i assume their genetic makeup is different in some way, because then we aren't all inherently 'the same' anymore as is the case here on earth. if some martian has 3 hands with 10 fingers with an eyeball in the middle of each palm, i don't want a piece of that 

what's interesting is if in the future we manage to colonize mars, now what? eventually genetics will alter in a different environment and the human species could branch off in 2 different directions. then it starts to get icky about world champions...human champion maybe? 

@anders, am i et al? is my name like lord voldemorts now?


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## anders (May 23, 2008)

rxdeath said:


> @anders, am i et al? is my name like lord voldemorts now?



Well, I prefer to refer to real names and I do not think that rxdeath is your real name. But this does not imply that I do not take your arguments seriously.


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## Swordsman Kirby (May 23, 2008)

rxdeath said:


> if some martian has 3 hands with 10 fingers with an eyeball in the middle of each palm, i don't want a piece of that



Think about the possibilities for BLD cubing!


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## rxdeath (May 23, 2008)

anders said:


> rxdeath said:
> 
> 
> > @anders, am i et al? is my name like lord voldemorts now?
> ...



i reread your post and mis-read it. thanks for being so open minded and your points are very good, i do appreciate everyone's input (espeically those who agree with me lol jk jk)

i would also like a non-north/south american or european opinion and encourage our asian friends to speak up on this discussion. not to keep a heated debate going, but it would just be interesting to hear another groups opinion.


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## Dene (May 23, 2008)

As for human species changing, it is surely sooner to occur than many think. with global warming, there is likely to be a huge disaster coming soon (evolutionarily speaking) that could force evolution of the human species. (off topic ftw. Also, if there's gonna be another vegetable, how about going along similar lines as carrot, and using celery?)


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## Bryan (May 23, 2008)

Tyson said:


> So the United States would also have something similar, at least each region would have its own qualifier. These would probably be the San Francisco competition in January, Berkeley Open, San Diego Open, a Caltech Spring competition, something in Denver, and maybe three on the East Coast. I would also allow German Open, and other European Opens to serve as qualifiers for the national championships... maybe.



Why would you limit it to just certain competitions? I think if you make people prequalify by attending any "regional" competition, that should be enough. Even if you have a weak region, it's going to be by time anyway. But the idea of certain regional competitions being "less" than others would be the kiss of death to many competitions. Just think how far people will travel for an official WCA competition compared to an unofficial competition.


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## hdskull (May 23, 2008)

rubikaz said:


> I agree with Edouard, Eric, etc and I am not going to win nothing...



Can you win something if it's closed?


I read up to page 21. 

I think all these complaints/messages should be to the Euro2008 Organization Team instead, because most of us aren't in that organization team. More posts will just elongate this dispute. (If someone already suggested this, then please ignore). 

I think the tournament should be restricted to European residents. Even though I'm a Chinese citizen, after living in the United States for so long make me feel integrated with the American culture. If I was excluded from an event in the United States solely because I am not a citizen(but a permanent resident) would tick me off.


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## hdskull (May 23, 2008)

Tyson said:


> When you go to a qualifying event, your performances are recorded and ranked against everyone else who went to the qualifying event. And then, we would say the top 64 3x3x3 speed solve averages from these competitions would be invited to the championships.
> 
> I think if someone is willing to travel all over to try and get more attempts to qualify, that would be fine.
> 
> ...



This would be great, it gives the residents a chance to qualify in Europe and not excluded simply because they are not citizens.

I had been thinking about this for the US Open and how great it would be if a winner can get a paid trip to US Open but it doesn't seem feasible, because you guys won't have enough money. (Maybe the winner of a region can participate at US Open for free?) I'm just looking forward to the next competition I can attend. haha.


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## cmhardw (May 23, 2008)

I think Arnaud presented the ideas the most clearly to us non-Europeans as to why a closed European Championship can be appealing to Europeans. I do not agree with those opinions, but I can respect them as the opinions of others who I consider my friends and colleagues in our sport.

Having said that, I also want to say that this very discussion is making me feel a little unwelcome about the prospect of being an American and competing in an Open European competition that is not the World Championship. Is it only the European Championship where (some) Europeans want to exclude foreigners from competing because of a European "feeling"? Please tell me this is the case, because it seems strange to me that you could turn off this feeling like a toggle switch between an Open and a Closed competition. As to the invitations for non-Europeans to still come to a closed European competition, I will tell you that I personally would never attend a competition where I am not allowed to compete. It would make me feel most unwelcome and unwanted, and I would never voluntarily choose to put myself in that position.

I very much hope to meet more European cubers, in Europe, in the near future. I hope this huge disagreement over this issue does not affect those of us who do choose to cross the big pond to come see you guys. That would very greatly sadden me if it did.

Are we all still friends here?
Chris


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## KJiptner (May 23, 2008)

rxdeath said:


> KJiptner said:
> 
> 
> > The question that really punishes me all the time, since this discussion came up:
> ...



1st: Yes, I was beeing somewhat serious.
2nd: good point!


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## nicoJ (May 23, 2008)

i will say things for clear 

i WANT to meet OH american cubers (such as ryan patricio, dan dzoan, etc..), so i have nothing against a world championship
and if it is a world championship (or an european championship) i guess there will have to be a World champion, due that there will be people from around the world

BUT if the competition is an EUROPEAN competition, i'm sorry but there can just be europeans ()

so, if it were for me, change the competition to a WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP (without martians), but PLEASE, do not try to turn up an EUROPEAN COMPETITION in a EUROPEAN COMPETITION FOR PEOPLE THAT IS NOT FROM EUROPE

thank you all for reading, this is my last post

PS: sorry, shelley, i just was trying to make a little irony


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## AvGalen (May 23, 2008)

Tyson said:


> Why do you want a closed competition? What will a closed competition accomplish for you that is not possible in on open competition? Why can't feelings of national pride and camaraderie be possible in the presence of foreigners?


 
I want a closed competition based on feelings and not rational thoughts. The following may sound like weird comparisons, but read them a couple of times and match them to your personal experiences before you start knocking them down:
a) If a couple of guys want to hang out it gives them certain expectations and feelings. If one girl would come along with them their is no good reason why they should act different or experience the event differently, but in reality the experience would change (am I really mixing Heisenberg and psychology here?)

b1) Discrimination based on gender is basically prohibited in The Netherlands
b2) At my favorite sauna, there is a ladies-day were men are prohibited from entering. If one man walks in I can guarantee that there will be a different experience (feeling) for the women that were already there. This different experience is mostly based on feelings because even if no man would actually be there, but someone just says that ladiesday has been changed so men might be there the feelings/experience will be different. Most women that go to ladies day are either "first-timers", "bring-your-daughter"-mothers or shy. However many of them also come to the sauna when men are there but just enjoy being in a womens-only environment sometime. (Strangely there is no such thing as a mens-day were women are prohibited from entering)

I realize the differences between men and women are much bigger (especially when naked) compared to European and non-European cubers. I am not making analogys here, just giving an example where it is clear that feelings can change the experience even though rationality/logic gives no reason for this.

Also note that none of this has to do with elitism. I would like to have a closed EC because I enjoy the feeling of Europeans-only. I don't enjoy that feeling because I think Europeans are *superior* to non-Europeans. I am also not afraid that non-Europeans would take all podiums and prices (first, that wouldn't happen on an EO. second, if it would happen at an EO it would be fine by me). I just can't stress enough that I will enjoy an EO and hope to meet as many non-European cubers as possible. I am just going to miss the EC and admit that's because of feelings, not rationality.



cmhardw said:


> Having said that, I also want to say that this very discussion is making me feel a little unwelcome about the prospect of being an American and competing in an Open European competition that is not the World Championship. Is it only the European Championship where (some) Europeans want to exclude foreigners from competing because of a European "feeling"? Please tell me this is the case, because it seems strange to me that you could turn off this feeling like a toggle switch between an Open and a Closed competition. As to the invitations for non-Europeans to still come to a closed European competition, I will tell you that I personally would never attend a competition where I am not allowed to compete. It would make me feel most unwelcome and unwanted, and I would never voluntarily choose to put myself in that position.
> 
> I very much hope to meet more European cubers, in Europe, in the near future. I hope this huge disagreement over this issue does not affect those of us who do choose to cross the big pond to come see you guys. That would very greatly sadden me if it did.
> 
> ...


 
Don't feel unwelcome Chris. It really is all about the difference between calling something EC vs EO as you said (and hoped). I have pushed the toggle-switch without any problem simply by renaming EC to EO (nicknamed the big Bilbao Open). I agree that inviting a cuber to a competition where he cannot compete is just cruel.

I hope to see you and many others on this side (EO, but also other Opens in Europe) and on other sides (US Open 2008, Worlds 2009) of those big ponds. There is no doubt in my mind that we are all still friends here. Actually I hope some of us understand each other a little better now.




Tyson said:


> It's a real jerk thing to do... if you try 4x4x4 BLD for the first time in competition without spending effort on it at home.


I am going to do that jerky thing. I haven't tried a 4x4x4 BLD, don't know how to do it and will not try or study it at home. I hope someone like Chris or Mike will teach me the night before the US Open. If they cannot or don't want to I will try to learn how to by myself. This is not because I am to lazy to do it now. This is because I want to find out if it is possible to do it this way (short time, high pressure).
I never tried multi-blind at home and didn't study how to do it. I just tried it at a competition and got 2/2 (good enough for place 7 in the world back then ) and that was before I got a regular blindfolded correctly.

Finally, if any Martians would show up at any tournament (Open or Closed) I would let them compete dispite all the rules or practical implications because
a) That would be soooo cool
b) I would be afraid of the consequences if they weren't allowed from competing. (actually, I would still be afraid of what happens if they can't solve it )


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## Erik (May 23, 2008)

Lol, Arnaud just let me see the light. This is, on the part why I want the competition closed:
I tried to explain what I felt, but I see now the real reason can't be explained better than just a feeling. There is (and I hope was never) no doubt I like to compete against loads of people, or I'm scared of others. (Nor is it the fact that I just want close competitions so the chance of me winning is bigger)
If I were all that, I wouldn't go to the WC or any open and get my butt kicked. 
It's the feeling we (at least Arnaud and me, but I'm sure others too) have. 
I do see it's hard for non-Europeans to understand because they maybe don't have this feeling about their continent/school group/country.

Furthermore, Chris I still love you and every* cuber I've met so far. You are a very cool guy and I hope to meet you again.
* (since I couldn't think of one I didn't at the moment.)

About the 4x4 BLD: 
I know I haven't done a successful solve yet in competition, but I'm working on it (most important change is that I'll use U2 method for centres, which is more reliable than (at least *my*) commutators ) 
Oh: and Arnaud, I'm not good at 4x4 BLD at all but I know how to solve it, I can help you too when the time is right


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## Tyson (May 23, 2008)

KJiptner said:


> rxdeath said:
> 
> 
> > KJiptner said:
> ...



I think this argument is facetious. The discovery of extraterrestrial life would have impacts that far exceeded cubing.


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## Tyson (May 23, 2008)

Erik said:


> Lol, Arnaud just let me see the light. This is, on the part why I want the competition closed:
> I tried to explain what I felt, but I see now the real reason can't be explained better than just a feeling. There is (and I hope was never) no doubt I like to compete against loads of people, or I'm scared of others. (Nor is it the fact that I just want close competitions so the chance of me winning is bigger)
> If I were all that, I wouldn't go to the WC or any open and get my butt kicked.
> It's the feeling we (at least Arnaud and me, but I'm sure others too) have.
> ...



Isn't this the definition of selfish? You want something because it makes you feel good, and you're willing to screw over other people to get it. This feeling you talk about is intangible and really is discriminatory.

Why don't you try a different example rather than men and women naked in a sauna? I don't think you can come up with an example that doesn't seem terribly discriminatory. There is a lot in terms of sexual history, that contribute to the dynamic of naked men and women in a sauna. The day this is applicable to cubing is the day you can use this argument.

But really this feeling you want is just your own elite club. It is not part of a world organization. It is elite, because you want to exclude people over something they cannot control.

Is this that you feel you have the right to be selfish? That you feel you have the right to put your desires over the global community? That you don't want someone to participate in your competition simply because of where they were born?

I apologize, I'm a bit worked up right now and it's early in the morning. But I want to see more tangible arguments. Because if you're allowing yourself to make decisions based on "feeling," you realize that I would have to make some decisions based on "feeling" as well. Just wait until your government makes decisions based on "feeling." Oh it feels right, for national unity, that everyone should believe in the same deity. It just feels right, that life begins at conception. It feels wrong to save lives using stem cells.

You can't make decisions based on "feeling" because NOT EVERYONE FEELS THE SAME WAY! So you have to make decisions based on logic. And I think logically, even Arnaud has conceded that what I present shows there is no reason to have the competition closed.

I will be calmer after my morning cup of water.


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## Tyson (May 23, 2008)

Yeah, you know... I don't like the feeling of blond people at my competitions. It's a feeling. The blond people are going to take away all the prizes from the people with black hair. Oh, but I actually don't like all people with black hair. I don't like people who speak Mandarin. It takes away from the feeling. How can we have a Caltech competition if we allow people with blond hair who speak Mandarin to compete?

Oh, you happen to be here? I'm sorry. You have blond hair. Oh? But being blond isn't under your control? You could get gene therapy and mutate the genes to produce more pigment for your hair. That's unreasonable? No one is forcing you to be blond, you have that choice.

But come on guys, please understand. You have to know what it means to have black hair and not speak Mandarin. You don't understand, because your culture is different. If you come, you will destroy the feeling of the competition. Of my event... of this event that I own because whereas it seems like I'm just complaining on forums, I actually work hand-in-hand with the sponsors and the organizers.

But this isn't something you can understand. You have blond hair. And you speak Mandarin. Oh, you've been here for 9 years? The gene therapy process takes 11? Well you'll have to wait two years.

Please, you have to understand. You are going to destroy the entire event! I can't call it the Black Hair-Non Mandarin Speaking Championships anymore because I don't want to, because you ruined my party. And you cut the cake. Where is the cake? There is no cake. The cake is a lie! You lied about the cake!

What? You mean that I could have a good time if I didn't ruin the party for myself? But you have blond hair. I don't want you to come. My feelings that this party will be ruined if you come is an absolute. If you come, by definition I will be sad, and the party will be ruined. So it is you who comes that ruins the party. Not you who comes, and then I don't like it, so I ruin the party. You see, the responsibility is obviously on you. Because this feeling that I have, is shared by everyone.

Obviously I'm calmer now. People like Sikan are the exact reason why I wouldn't close a competition in the United States. He's been in the United States for how many years, I don't know. The fact that he doesn't have citizenship is not of my concern. There are many reasons why he might not have it. Maybe he hasn't had time to take the test. Maybe he has family in China and needs to keep the Chinese citizenship so he can visit them. But it's by some great fortune that we are able to have Sikan be a part of our community. He deserves to compete amongst the people in his home just as much as anyone else.


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## Erik (May 23, 2008)

I've read your post quickly (I'm not going to read all of it since I don't have time for that atm.) 
But what you are insisting is that we discriminate, we don't like non-europeans etc? And most of all we think we are *better* than non-europeans? Sorry but you didn't understand Arnaud's point then.


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## Mike Hughey (May 23, 2008)

AvGalen said:


> I haven't tried a 4x4x4 BLD, don't know how to do it and will not try or study it at home. I hope someone like Chris or Mike will teach me the night before the US Open.


There is a possibility my wife might be in China during the US Open. If so, I'm afraid I won't be able to go (even though I've already paid for it). But I'm still very much hoping I will be able to attend, and if I am, I will try to find a chance to get together with you and help you learn 4x4x4 BLD. There are many people for whom it would be a jerk thing to try 4x4x4 BLD for the first time in competition, but for someone who's already good with commutators as a concept, and has done 3x3x3 BLD and even multiBLD, and is good at fewest moves (meaning they can see things on the cube well), and is good at big cubes, and has already learned many methods for solving cubes, and takes the time to learn all the necessary methods the night before, I think this is a perfectly reasonable thing to try. Your chance of success might not be large, but it should certainly be possible.


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## Tyson (May 23, 2008)

Erik said:


> I've read your post quickly (I'm not going to read all of it since I don't have time for that atm.)
> But what you are insisting is that we discriminate, we don't like non-europeans etc? And most of all we think we are *better* than non-europeans? Sorry but you didn't understand Arnaud's point then.



No, I don't think Arnaud thinks that Europeans are better. But it is discrimination if you base it on "feeling." Feeling is something that is intangible, and I could say that the atmosphere of my competition is ruined when blond kids with four-letter names that end in "rik" attend.

So I don't want any blond kids with four-letter names that end in "rik." That would ruin the feeling of my competition. Oh, I'm sorry you don't understand, but try to understand. You just don't understand because *you* are not _one of us_.

Do you see how ridiculous things are if the only reasoning you can give for it is "feeling"? If you could present a logical tangible argument, you might have a case.


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## Erik (May 23, 2008)

How about this:
there is a pub for students who are member of a certain schoolorganisation/club/just the school/whatever. This is actually a real example I think. The people in that pub also go to normal pubs and meet you and have fun. But... you want to go into that special student pub because it happens to be a big pub, but... the door says that you have to be member of that club/school/organisation etc.etc. the only way you can be a member is to be in that school so you can join (just like you have to request a european passport to enter EC). 
Or imagine a big chessclub from a school, every student from that school plays in it (I wish chess was that popular but lets assume it was), you can't be member of that unless you are studying at the school. But is such a club bad? No it's not, you can still play those people at the normal tournaments of which there are loads. 
Imagine even, that that club only gets together once a year to hold a tournament! Which is even a better example. (but most members still play the regular tournaments every weekend!)
And: not every member plays every weekend tournament, but this one tournament each year is where they all play to see who is best of that school and have a one time opportunity to meat all of eachother.

This is as good as I try to explain it, maybe the feeling it's not comparable to anything at all, so it can't be explained 100% (side question: does it have to be comparable + explained?)....


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## shelley (May 23, 2008)

I don't know how familiar you are with American history, but look up the Jim Crow laws. These were in place because white people in the southern United States basically had the same kind of feelings about black people. Besides these feelings, there was no reason for them and they were unfair. I'm sure there are plenty of other examples throughout history that can illustrate this, but this was the first thing that came to my mind.

Europe isn't an exclusive club or organization. We're all part of the WCA. I can respect competitions that are closed on the basis of merit, but not on the basis of something we can't control.


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## Erik (May 23, 2008)

I think the school examples were a better comparision to the current situation here than sheer racism to be honest...


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## Inusagi (May 23, 2008)

Erik said:


> How about this:
> there is a pub for students who are member of a certain schoolorganisation/club/just the school/whatever. This is actually a real example I think. The people in that pub also go to normal pubs and meet you and have fun. But... you want to go into that special student pub because it happens to be a big pub, but... the door says that you have to be member of that club/school/organisation etc.etc. the only way you can be a member is to be in that school so you can join (just like you have to request a european passport to enter EC).
> Or imagine a big chessclub from a school, every student from that school plays in it (I wish chess was that popular but lets assume it was), you can't be member of that unless you are studying at the school. But is such a club bad? No it's not, you can still play those people at the normal tournaments of which there are loads.
> Imagine even, that that club only gets together once a year to hold a tournament! Which is even a better example. (but most members still play the regular tournaments every weekend!)
> ...




But what if those students is allowed to join? I don't see anything bad with it. How can you see anything bad with it?


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## shelley (May 23, 2008)

Erik said:


> I think the school examples were a better comparision to the current situation here than sheer racism to be honest...



Racism may be an extreme example of course, but it was based on the same kind of discriminatory feelings. There's no real reason black people can't study at the same school as white people. But it would ruin the feeling of all the white people hanging out together.

Besides, unless you've broken off to form the ECA, we're all in the WCA. We're all in the same club, or school, or whatever analogy you want to make.


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## Bryan (May 23, 2008)

The thing is, everyone is competing against a clock. This isn't like basketball or soccer or chess. So figuring out the best for any certain subgroup is easy.

Also, some people may not be citizen of a country, but live there and culturally fit in. Do they ruin a competition? If someone is a citizen, but they're completely immature, do they ruin a competition? Yes. So by that logic if I wanted to ban all competitors under a certain age, that should be fine?


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## Tyson (May 23, 2008)

Chess is different, and I talked about this in a different post. In a chess tournament, your field has a direct effect on your individual performance. You have to play these people. The same goes for a track and field race. In a 1500 meter race, the people who lead the pack will set the tempo for the race.

In cubing, you can perform your best result irregardless of who is there.


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## Erik (May 23, 2008)

Tyson said:


> Chess is different, and I talked about this in a different post. In a chess tournament, your field has a direct effect on your individual performance. You have to play these people. The same goes for a track and field race. In a 1500 meter race, the people who lead the pack will set the tempo for the race.
> 
> In cubing, you can perform your best result irregardless of who is there.



That was totally beside the point, lets say everyone has the same rating then. (by the way, I don't see reason why the performance (TPR) should count/matter since it is about who wins the tournament). 
So again you find something which doesn't make the example totally matching, maybe this situation and our feeling is not 100% comparable to anything.
I know there is no such thing as a European club, maybe there should be one (which is a doughter of the WCA), we feel like there is a club. We talk each year about the best European guys and talk about the previous and upcoming European Championships. 
If you compare the EC the way it was to discrimination and xenophobia or even racism, this shows that you have strong feelings about this. Then I ask you why in this 4 years, where there has been loads of closed competitions and even more open competitions, why you all didn't try to change the WCA rules. As you see this is a very bad time to change things, at least if you change the rule that there can be closed competitions, do it just after the previous EC so we won't be training for a tournament that's not going to exist anyway!
Seriously if this decision was going to be made after this EC as it was planned I wouldn't even care *that* much about it...


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## Bryan (May 23, 2008)

Erik said:


> That was totally beside the point, lets say everyone has the same rating then. (by the way, I don't see reason why the performance should count/matter since it is about who wins the tournament).



So you'd be fine with not having any of the results recorded in the WCA database? Just who won.



Erik said:


> Then I ask you why in this 4 years, where there has been loads of closed competitions and even more open competitions, why you all didn't try to change the WCA rules.



http://www.worldcubeassociation.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=84


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## Inusagi (May 23, 2008)

Erik said:


> That was totally beside the point, lets say everyone has the same rating then. (by the way, I don't see reason why the performance (TPR) should count/matter since it is about who wins the tournament).
> So again you find something which doesn't make the example totally matching, maybe this situation and our feeling is not 100% comparable to anything.
> I know there is no such thing as a European club, maybe there should be one (which is a doughter of the WCA), we feel like there is a club. We talk each year about the best European guys and talk about the previous and upcoming European Championships.
> If you compare the EC the way it was to discrimination and xenophobia or even racism, this shows that you have strong feelings about this. Then I ask you why in this 4 years, where there has been loads of closed competitions and even more open competitions, why you all didn't try to change the WCA rules. As you see this is a very bad time to change things, at least if you change the rule that there can be closed competitions, do it just after the previous EC so we won't be training for a tournament that's not going to exist anyway!
> Seriously if this decision was going to be made after this EC as it was planned I wouldn't even care *that* much about it...



Why wouldn't you care that much about it if this was planned after the competition? I mean it would just have been a closed one in 2010. The difference is nothing. If it's in 2010, then the close one is just 2 years away. To be honest, there would nothing difference. And if you say that you have dicussed with your friends about how it would be if it was open (before you knew it would change), then you can change the discussion. It'll be nothing difference to change it now.


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## rxdeath (May 23, 2008)

i agree very few comparisons work in this situation. 

erik: the EC does exist. its the open competition in bilbao, just because you 'deny' it, doesn't mean its not there.

another point: so if its the 'atmosphere/feeling' that you're after, how is it ok for us to be there, but not compete? i mean people would still be there and stinking up the place with their non-european aura. is it just if we compete? where exactly is the line drawn? how do you manage this feeling at other competitions as chris asked, i don't see how this can be turned on and off. the comparison to racism isn't as far off as you think in my opinion, i didn't really want to drop that bomb, but its pretty close, i think its funny the word 'nationalism' would best describe this segregation in my mind, and it makes me reaffirm that -isms are usually horrible.


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## cubetimer (May 23, 2008)

This whole thread is a little disappointing.

I'll be going to the San Diego Open tomorrow. It's my second competition ever. This time I'm bringing a bunch of friends. It will be their first. One of the things I've always bragged about with them is how cool the cubing community is as a whole. For the most part everyone is willing to talk, help you out... everybody is there to have fun.

I'd hate to see cubing become like pretty much every other sport, where everyone starts quibbling over stupid ego related crap.

I mean, let's be realistic here - it's a plastic toy. I know that probably borders on blasphemous around here, but cubing is a hobby. It's fun to compete and come away with a title, until the arguing takes the fun out of it and you're just left with an ego driven mess.

If the only way you can really win a title is by excluding people that are faster than you, I'd call the pretty childish. If you are the fastest of the 100 slowest people on earth, that's not much to be proud of...

(and no, I'm not calling Europeans the 100 slowest people on Earth, if anyone tries to take it that way...)


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## Ron (May 23, 2008)

Hi guys,

In roughly 80% of competitions in Europe there are only European competitors. Great opportunities to have that European feeling?
In roughly 20% of competitions in Europe there are a few non European competitors. Most of the time these competitors were non Europeans living in Europe and maybe one or two travellers. They were always very welcome. One of them is our Argentinian friend Gabriel from Barcelona area. I am happy that there are opens where he can compete.

I never had that Dutch or European feeling. In competitions I always have the feeling of being among other cube friends. I love it! It is a big motivation for me to organise and to practice.

We have two discussions here:
1) should Euro 2008 be open?
2) should we allow closed competitions at all?

The answer to the first question is not up to the community, but up to the organisation team (options based on current regulations) and up to the WCA Board (decisions based on current regulations).
The answer to the second question is up to the community. Next stop is WCA regulations 2009. Let us discuss again beginning of 2009. Oh, and then please play the ball not the player. In general I think we need the option of closed competitions, most of the time national competitions, because some sponsors demand it. In a few years we will have a stronger position against those sponsors. Because we are the greatest salesmen of our hobby to the media, by having so much fun and having such a cool hobby.

The organisation team of Euro 2008 is not stupid. For all fears that I hear on this forum, there are plenty of options to deal with the 'danger'. Suppose the top 32 non European cubers would participate, and there was a chance that there would be no Europeans in the finals. Or that there were so many non European multiple blindfolded competitors that our 'own' European multiple blindfolded competitors could not participate. Or all the other dangers that you can think of.
We will find a solution, don't worry.

We have this discussion because in general most people do not like change.
Euro 2008 is a change to a tradition (European cubing championships are closed, European championships in general are closed).
Euro 2008 is a change to expectations (Euro 2008 was supposed to be closed).
Euro 2008 is a change to naming conventions (if the name does not include 'Open', it is a closed competition).
It takes some time to get used to it.

Everyone is a friend and everyone is welcome.

Have fun,

Ron


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## nicoJ (May 23, 2008)

i agree with that

but, if we are doing a Euro, it has to be just for europeans, i think that's the way it has to be


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## rxdeath (May 23, 2008)

right on ron, you are firm but fair. i will be happy to drop the discussion until something can actually be accomplished from it. i have my opinions about sponsers/media/etc.. but that can wait until then. i know that euro 2008 will be a great competition and we can expect world class performances regardless of the situation or name of the tournament, good luck to everyone, and if i make it (i gave my word i would not compete, so i won't) i'll try hard not to stink up the place with my red white and blue smell


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## tim (May 23, 2008)

Ron said:


> Everyone is a friend and everyone is welcome.



I hope we'll keep that in mind until the EC and beyond that. Reading some posts in this thread made me feel sad.

Actually i didn't want to go to the EC, since Spain is somewhat expensive. But after i read, that'll be an open comepition, i changed my mind and will try to save some money (e.g. by selling cubes ).


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## nicoJ (May 23, 2008)

tim from germany!!!
germany is a "little more expensive" than spain
just a little
so is like going to somewhere in germany
i assure you


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## Stefan (May 23, 2008)

anders said:


> the position of Stefan Pochmann, that is, the only important results are the personal best and the world record; all other discriminations are artificial (I hope that is a correct interpretation of your position, Stefan).


Pretty much, yes. World combines everybody, personal combines nobody. These are the two extremes. Anything in between combines some people but not others, using some criterion treating different people differently. The two extremes have no such criterion, they're the only ones treating everybody the same.


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## AvGalen (May 23, 2008)

rxdeath said:


> i agree very few comparisons work in this situation.
> 
> erik: the EC does exist. its the open competition in bilbao, just because you 'deny' it, doesn't mean its not there.
> 
> another point: so if its the 'atmosphere/feeling' that you're after, how is it ok for us to be there, but not compete? i mean people would still be there and stinking up the place with their non-european aura. is it just if we compete? where exactly is the line drawn? how do you manage this feeling at other competitions as chris asked, i don't see how this can be turned on and off. the comparison to racism isn't as far off as you think in my opinion, i didn't really want to drop that bomb, but its pretty close, i think its funny the word 'nationalism' would best describe this segregation in my mind, and it makes me reaffirm that -isms are usually horrible.


 
Nobody said you were stinking up the place, but for some reason you even felt the need to repeat it. Comments like that only cause discussions to overheat. I have already answered how I manage this feeling, so please don't ask the same question again without responding to answers that have already been given.
I would draw the line at competing, just as the WCA rules state for a closed competition. I wouldn't mind non-European spectators at all. Just compare it to soccer. WCA equals UEFA (a global organisation), but the rules also allow closed competitions. Nobody would mind if there were non-European spectators, not even if it would be an entire team. But they shouldn't be allowed to compete in the European Championship. There are other tournaments around the world where everyone would compete against eachother.



Tyson said:


> Chess is different, and I talked about this in a different post. In a chess tournament, your field has a direct effect on your individual performance. You have to play these people. The same goes for a track and field race. In a 1500 meter race, the people who lead the pack will set the tempo for the race.
> 
> In cubing, you can perform your best result irregardless of who is there.


 
That is mostly true, but not always: http://speedsolving.com/showpost.php?p=22281&postcount=36
This is just a side note. I already mentioned many times that this is not about "foreigners stealing our prices"

I will not comment on the racism comparison other then I think it is way out of line. Last year I met Lori (reporter) during the US Open and we had many talks both in Chicago and later in The Netherlands about racism. Racism and wanting a closed competition in addidtion to an open competition are WAY apart.

http://www.speedcubing.com/events/euro2008/competitors.html
Still no non-European cubers 

To the organisors: Why not change the name to European Open?

To Ron: I agree with you, as I do most of the time, but I think


> 2) should we allow open competitions at all?


 you mean "should we allow closed competitions?"

And that's all I have to say about this for now.


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## rxdeath (May 23, 2008)

avg: i did post that original thing before ron made his very valid point it's out of our hands now, and we just have to move forward. i think if you can't joke about it (i put a smiley and everything) then you are far too serious, i think its a good thing to be able to make fun of yourself (which was my intention, making fun of me, not anyone else, sorry if you took it otherwise) anyone that can get ****ed off honestly deserves to be ****ed off because very few things in life are worth anger and none of them is the rubiks cube  i don't feel you've answered my question either, but we can save it until '09. your answer on why is unsatisfactory to me, so i wondered if you could present it a different way, so i reasked the ?, nothing wrong there

also i said its closer than you think, but not exactly the same. i will be interested to know how you find it so different when the time comes.(regarding racism)

edit: for picky pochmann


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## Dene (May 23, 2008)

cubetimer said:


> I mean, let's be realistic here - it's a plastic toy.








rx: On your point I agree, except that I am of the opinion that _nothing_ is worthy of anger, _ever_.


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## Stefan (May 23, 2008)

rxdeath said:


> very few things in life are worth anger and one of them isn't the rubiks cube


But another one is? Dude you screwed that up.


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## rxdeath (May 23, 2008)

StefanPochmann said:


> rxdeath said:
> 
> 
> > very few things in life are worth anger and one of them isn't the rubiks cube
> ...




edited for your viewing pleasure lol. man you're like gravity. always waiting for someone to let their guard down and WHAM you got them


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## Erik (May 24, 2008)

Inusagi: why? because then I wouldn't prepare for half a year (at least prepare my mind) for a tournament that's not going to be the way it has always been and has said it will be again. So in my opinion this IS very different from a 2010 competition which is announced well before.

Bryan1: no if you are against the closed competition so much I'd be willing to give that part of the competition up, where the note should be that I only say this about this particular EC and not for all competitions
Bryan2: that discussion is very outdated since the last post was made august 2006 so it can't have sudden immediate change because we suddenly all looked at a very old post. c

@ Ron1: ok I see now, but I do have to ask (where you are not obliged to answer, since that's your right of course ) if the small (pre) discussion on yahoo, -especially made by clancy- made the organisation team change their mind. Or, if they the team just came up with the idea that it's better to be open without any influence from the outside.
@ Ron2: I'm kinda wondering why the change wasn't made and announced at the end of the previous EC or wasn't made after this EC, since we (at least me) now have the situation of being semi-prepared (mostly mentally) and then suddenly have to switch over to preparing for a (possibly) different competitor field. It would have prevented some surprises/frustrations imho.

@ All: of course EC (closed or not) is still a big competition where one of the biggest goals is to have the most fun I can have, if the EC is open and you all come I will be a bit dissapointed but still have loads of fun. (duh!)


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## Bryan (May 24, 2008)

Erik said:


> Bryan1: no if you are against the closed competition so much I'd be willing to give that part of the competition up, where the note should be that I only say this about this particular EC and not for all competitions


OK, so just make the EC a non-WCA competition and run it how you want. 



Erik said:


> Bryan2: that discussion is very outdated since the last post was made august 2006 so it can't have sudden immediate change because we suddenly all looked at a very old post.


Well, if you go to page 2, you'll see the discussion was bumped in Nov 2007 for discussion of the 2008 regulations.


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## rxdeath (May 24, 2008)

Erik said:


> stuff erik said (i cut the quote to make it shorter, its just so its obvious who i'm speaking to)



1st paragraph: you should train as hard as you can all the time regardless of competitors, if you don't then the only person to blame is yourself.

2nd paragraph: i don't see why you want to blame this on me, but ron if it is true that is because of me, don't be hesistant to say it on my account, i will gladly be the martyr for this cause. however i would like to know what this has to do with the meat and potatos of the subject, which is equal opportunity for all. i will take fault for it, its my fault. just like it's henry ford's fault that so many people die in automobile crashes everyday....

if you're disappointed to see other cubers there, then i would say you are there for the wrong reasons, and i can't believe you'd say that considering how selfish it sounds.

lastly, didn't many people say it would be good if the debate portion of this was over until the 09 rules are drafted?


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## Gunnar (May 24, 2008)

It's easy to see why people might be attracted by a closed shampionship. People has always wanted to compare themseleves against others they have something in common with, may it be their family, school class, home town, regional area, country, continent and at last the world. That's the reason there exists these closed sompetitions in most sports. It's a cultural thing which isn't easily just thrown away, so I can see Arnaud's point of way, even though it's just his 'feeling'.

That said, I myself don't care to much about closed sompetitions. I qoute myslef from an e-mail:

"I'm fine with the fact that non-europeans are allowed. It can still be considered an official european championship, in that the point of the whole competition is to find the best european cuber. Since everybody is aware of that, a fair deal of the elite european cubers will get there, which is, for me, what makes the championship legitimite. That isn't affected by the presence of non-europeans.

I can understand both sides' arguments on the topic, but I'm just glad if more nice people are coming. It's already hard enough to get together with the non-euro cubers."


PS. I don't know if this gave anything. Just wanted to share my thoughts.

/Gunnar Krig


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## Erik (May 24, 2008)

rxdeath said:


> 1st paragraph: you should train as hard as you can all the time regardless of competitors, if you don't then the only person to blame is yourself.



Er.. nope not true at all imho for a few reasons.
1. I don't have unlimited cubing time so I have to choose the puzzles which I practise more or less. (note that I registered for all events)
2. it depends on the people coming which puzzles I practise more or less. 
3. I hope you are not trying to make my training schedule here

and sure it would be a good debate point for WCA rules 2009, I only assumed there would mostly be debate *before* change and not debate *because of* (and after). [side note] no I don't consider that old WCA forum chat as a real debate since there are probably 10x more posts in this one (plus this one is recent and not outdated)...


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## Inusagi (May 24, 2008)

Erik said:


> Inusagi: why? because then I wouldn't prepare for half a year (at least prepare my mind) for a tournament that's not going to be the way it has always been and has said it will be again. So in my opinion this IS very different from a 2010 competition which is announced well before.



You got around 4-5 months to "prepare" your mind now. And thats a lot. I don't really know what you actually mean with Preparing your mind, but I am very sure, that 4-5 months is enough.


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## Erik (May 24, 2008)

You can't and you don't know that, you are not me, you can't read my mind. Fact remains that you always have 1 year to prepare between the big annual tournaments which is now interrupted..


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## Inusagi (May 24, 2008)

Erik said:


> You can't and you don't know that, you are not me, you can't read my mind. Fact remains that you always have 1 year to prepare between the big annual tournaments which is now interrupted..



But what do you need to prepare for? There is not very bigs changes that you need to prepare for. There is just coming some more people that's not from Europe. Do you really need 2 and a half year to prepare for such a thing?


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## Erik (May 24, 2008)

I don't know what you got 2.5 years from but the way I prepare is totally irrelevant. The fact is that I always have and take one year between each competition to prepare, how and why is my business.


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## Inusagi (May 24, 2008)

If you can't say clearly why and how, then evrybody gonna say that you're afraid to not come to the top 3. There's nothing to prepare for. I think you just found up this story...


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## Erik (May 24, 2008)

Please stop it, you are trying to push me, don't call me a liar or someone who thinks up stories. Again, you don't know how I prepare for things so stay out of it. You can't say things about stuff you can't know, everybody is different in his/her way of preparing. 
These posts of you seem nothing more to me than a childish attempt to let me say stupid things, I'll not react to those anymore. It's ridicilous.


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## Doudou (May 24, 2008)

Inusagi said:


> If you can't say clearly why and how, then evrybody gonna say that you're afraid to not come to the top 3. There's nothing to prepare for. I think you just found up this story...



So... Why do ALL the fast europeans think the same as Erik ?? They are all afraid to be out of the top3 ?? 
LOL ....


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## Bryan (May 24, 2008)

Erik said:


> if you want a change in the WCA way of doing things, this discussion would be on the WCA forum, but I didn't see any posts about that (when I looked yesterday) since 2007





Erik said:


> It's obvious imho that if you request the WCA to change something you ask it on the official place and not on a forum which most people don't check. I'm not directing you to it, nor do I give you a order to post it there. It's just the way it should be done.





Erik said:


> [side note] no I don't consider that old WCA forum chat as a real debate since there are probably 10x more posts in this one (plus this one is recent and not outdated)...



By the time we get around to discussing 2009, this thread will be just as old as the "old" WCA thread. Seriously, you're telling people they should have these discussions in the WCA forum, but then you say it's not valid since more people post here?


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## Inusagi (May 24, 2008)

Doudou said:


> So... Why do ALL the fast europeans think the same as Erik ?? They are all afraid to be out of the top3 ??
> LOL ....



Well, I think you are. You can easily go to the top 3 if it were close, but if it's open, then it's harder for you. Erik also mentioned that his goals were getting top 3 at most of the events in one of his thread, but now his plan changed. So he is very happy if he could do this, but now thats harder. 



Erik said:


> Please stop it, you are trying to push me, don't call me a liar or someone who thinks up stories. Again, you don't know how I prepare for things so stay out of it. You can't say things about stuff you can't know, everybody is different in his/her way of preparing.
> These posts of you seem nothing more to me than a childish attempt to let me say stupid things, I'll not react to those anymore. It's ridicilous.



I don't really understand what you meant with push, but could you mention 1 method of "preparing" that takes longer time then 4-5 months? It must not be your way, but could be any way of "prepation", so I just get an idea of how "prepation" works. And if they changed it to an open after this competition, then there would probably be another angry faces, that would say that theyr way prepation is taking 4 years, then when are they going to change it?

For the Wca, your meaning is more childish. And I don't try to push you (Whatever you ment with it).

If you say that the only reason to change it is to let you be prepared, and you don't even tell us what you mean with prepare, then it should be open.

You'll not react on my posts anymore? Is it because I came up with a sort of point you just can't refuse?


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## Erik (May 24, 2008)

Isn't it logical.... if there is one year between competitions you take one year of preparation, if there is 2 years you take 2 years of preparation, if it's 3 days between you'll do a 3 day preparation...
This is my last post, I'm wasting my time here.


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## Inusagi (May 24, 2008)

If that's your last post, then it'll probably be an open. And by the way, I didn't ask about how LONG a prepation takes, but WHAT is a prepation in this case.


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## Rama (May 24, 2008)

Inusagi said:


> If that's your last post, then it'll probably be an open.



Say what!?


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## Inusagi (May 25, 2008)

What do you mean?


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## Rama (May 25, 2008)

Inusagi said:


> What do you mean?



It's Erik's last post, so you think it's probably an open.
Could you explain it to people what you mean by that.


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## Inusagi (May 25, 2008)

He's probably the strongest anti-open guy in this thread. If he's giving up, then there would probably be an open. Like the black king dies in chess.


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## Markus Pirzer (May 25, 2008)

Inusagi said:


> He's probably the strongest anti-open guy in this thread. If he's giving up, then there would probably be an open. Like the black king dies in chess.



Did you really think WCA and the organisation team would revise an already taken decision just because not everyone is happy with this decision?
Registration has already openend for everybody 5 days ago.


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## rxdeath (May 25, 2008)

Markus Pirzer said:


> Inusagi said:
> 
> 
> > He's probably the strongest anti-open guy in this thread. If he's giving up, then there would probably be an open. Like the black king dies in chess.
> ...



yeah, this competition is beyond debate, it sounds as though it will be open without a doubt. and the organization team in confident they made the correct decsion. there will (probably) be some closed competitions before the end of the year for some, but the i'm sure we'll be able to continue this topic with more detail (if that's even possible - lol ) in nov/dec.


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