# [WCA Regulations 2012] Removal of Magic and Mastermagic



## Kirjava (Dec 12, 2011)

Is anyone strongly against removing these events? If so, why?

It should be obvious why these events should be removed.

Do not discuss the removal of any other events in this thread.


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## Rpotts (Dec 12, 2011)

I personally don't partake in the magics and don't think they're cool/useful but I do see a lot of young people who get to participate in competitions (such as Takao's children, Bryan's children etc) and I would be sad to think that they couldn't participate anymore. I wouldn't be horribly opposed to their removal but don't see it necessary. Magics oftentimes get run quickly during lunch or other events and don't seem to hold competitions behind or anything.


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## Muesli (Dec 12, 2011)

I personally think it's a silly little event, but like Rpotts said, it gives people who might have been dragged there by people something to compete in. It's easy to teach and easy to do. I don't think it's doing much harm.


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## Kirjava (Dec 12, 2011)

Rpotts said:


> I personally don't partake in the magics and don't think they're cool/useful but I do see a lot of young people who get to participate in competitions (such as Takao's children, Bryan's children etc) and I would be sad to think that they couldn't participate anymore.



This decision should not be made on an emotional basis. Do what is correct.



Rpotts said:


> Magics oftentimes get run quickly during lunch or other events and don't seem to hold competitions behind or anything.


 
Magic not being harmful is not a reason to have it as an event. 

The problem is that it is not a puzzle.


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## mitch1234 (Dec 12, 2011)

There is no reason why Magics should be removed,there is no way to cheat in Magic unless if you are starting/stopping the timer wrong. The only people that don't like Magic are the people who just aren't good at it, and think it is there right to say that Magic sucks. I feel that no WCA events should ever be removed because they were made an event for a reason. I know that most people don't like how magics are so easy to break but some 3x3's pop, no puzzle is perfect there is always flaws. In the end it should remain an event.


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## Kirjava (Dec 12, 2011)

mitch1234 said:


> There is no reason why Magics should be removed,there is no way to cheat in Magic unless if you are starting/stopping the timer wrong.



So?



mitch1234 said:


> The only people that don't like Magic are the people who just aren't good at it, and think it is there right to say that Magic sucks.



Mastermagic is my best event.



mitch1234 said:


> I feel that no WCA events should ever be removed because they were made an event for a reason.



Bad reasons cannot exist? WCA removed Rainbow Cube and kept Magic. wtf?!



mitch1234 said:


> I know that most people don't like how magics are so easy to break but some 3x3's pop, no puzzle is perfect there is always flaws. In the end it should remain an event.


 
Your reasoning is terrible.


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## qqwref (Dec 12, 2011)

Kirjava said:


> This decision should not be made on an emotional basis. Do what is correct.


Considering one of the WCA's main goals is fun, I think that the amount of fun some people have doing the Magic events in competitions is enough to prevent its removal. The fact that some people don't like the event, for various reasons, doesn't outweigh the potential removed fun of other competitors. I note that all events which were removed in the past were either (a) very unpopular, or (b) very hard to organize (e.g. old multi). Magic is neither.



Kirjava said:


> The problem is that it is not a puzzle.


The Magic/Master Magic itself is a puzzle, although the current event does not take advantage of this property.


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## kinch2002 (Dec 12, 2011)

I'm not shooting you down for no reason here - just pointing out that you might want to put a bit more thought into your arguments.


mitch1234 said:


> There is no reason why Magics should be removed,there is no way to cheat in Magic unless if you are starting/stopping the timer wrong.


That's a really big 'unless' there. And you certainly didn't give a good reason to keep it there.


mitch1234 said:


> The only people that don't like Magic are the people who just aren't good at it, and think it is there right to say that Magic sucks.


Wat. Just think for a second and you'll realise that unfortunately that wasn't true. I'm 9th in the world (at the WCs anyway ) and I hate it.


mitch1234 said:


> I feel that no WCA events should ever be removed because they were made an event for a reason.


Do you even know how all the events were originally decided? Clearly not


mitch1234 said:


> I know that most people don't like how magics are so easy to break but some 3x3's pop, no puzzle is perfect there is always flaws. In the end it should remain an event.


That's a very minor reason that people could bring against it. There's much much stronger arguments


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## Specs112 (Dec 12, 2011)

There's no need to have these. They're not twisty puzzles. The only reason I see for keeping them is that the really good magic people would be visibly upset, but that's hardly a reason.

We're the World Cube Association, not the World Flipping A Piece Of Paper Over Association.


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## JustinJ (Dec 12, 2011)

I don't have a strong opinion towards Master Magic, but Magic serves a very useful purpose, at least at Toronto competitions, where there are a lot of cubers with younger siblings who can't/don't want to learn to solve a cube. Being able to compete in something provides some sense of enjoyment to what might have otherwise been a really boring day for them, and in some cases, probably allows the older sibling to go in the first place, since the younger one won't complain about going as much.


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## garcijo (Dec 12, 2011)

I think that if Magics will remain, at least the dynamic of these events should change. The way they are hold at this moment is not appropriate for a puzzles competition


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## Muesli (Dec 12, 2011)

Specs112 said:


> There's no need to have these. They're not twisty puzzles. The only reason I see for keeping them is that the really good magic people would be visibly upset, but that's hardly a reason.
> 
> We're the World Cube Association, not the World Flipping A Piece Of Paper Over Association.


 
Pyraminx isn't a cube.


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## Kirjava (Dec 12, 2011)

qqwref said:


> Considering one of the WCA's main goals is fun, I think that the amount of fun some people have doing the Magic events in competitions is enough to prevent its removal. The fact that some people don't like the event, for various reasons, doesn't outweigh the potential removed fun of other competitors. I note that all events which were removed in the past were either (a) very unpopular, or (b) very hard to organize (e.g. old multi). Magic is neither.



Magic has the potential to give speedcubing a bad image, more so the bigger it gets. 

People would have a lot of fun at an orgy at a competition, but that doesn't make it a good idea.



qqwref said:


> The Magic/Master Magic itself is a puzzle, although the current event does not take advantage of this property.


 
I'm talking about Magic/MasterMagic as an event. We do not treat it as a puzzle.


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## Specs112 (Dec 12, 2011)

Muesli said:


> Pyraminx isn't a cube.


 
It's a twisty puzzle with more complexity and thought required than flipping a piece of paper over.

EDIT:



Kirjava said:


> People would have a lot of fun at an orgy at a competition, but that doesn't make it a good idea.



Go on...


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## EeeeeWarne (Dec 12, 2011)

I don't see how magics are not a puzzle. You have 3 rings, and you must link them. Now, if someone hasn't taught you how to do it, it could take you a while to work it out. Saying it's not a puzzle is stupid. Definition: Puzzle: A game, toy, or problem designed to test ingenuity or knowledge.

Even if you know how to do it, magics test your knowledge and see how fast you can do it.

The argument that magics and master magics are not puzzles is invalid.


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## teller (Dec 12, 2011)

If Magic were invented today, and did not have the "Rubik's" brand on it, it would never become an event.


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## Specs112 (Dec 12, 2011)

EeeeeWarne said:


> Puzzle: A game, toy, or problem designed to test ingenuity or knowledge.


 
Magic only tests manual dexterity.



teller said:


> If Magic were invented today, and did not have the "Rubik's" brand on it, it would never become an event.


 
This.


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## Kirjava (Dec 13, 2011)

EeeeeWarne said:


> I don't see how magics are not a puzzle. You have 3 rings, and you must link them. Now, if someone hasn't taught you how to do it, it could take you a while to work it out. Saying it's not a puzzle is stupid. Definition: Puzzle: A game, toy, or problem designed to test ingenuity or knowledge.
> 
> Even if you know how to do it, magics test your knowledge and see how fast you can do it.
> 
> The argument that magics and master magics are not puzzles is invalid.


 
I don't see how ball in a cup is not a puzzle. You have a ball, and you must put it in a cup. Now, if someone hasn't taught you how to do it, it could take you a while to work it out. Saying it's not a puzzle is stupid. Definition: Puzzle: A game, toy, or problem designed to test ingenuity or knowledge.

Even if you know how to do it, ball in a cup test your knowledge and see how fast you can do it.

The argument that ball in a cup is not a puzzle is invalid.


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## Muesli (Dec 13, 2011)

It brings the kids along and gives them something to do. I don't see how this is a bad thing.


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## kinch2002 (Dec 13, 2011)

Some people's argument for magics is that it's good for the younger siblings to get involved and stuff. So why not make it unofficial?
Also, breaking the magic would be funnier if it didn't matter at all


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## Kirjava (Dec 13, 2011)

EeeeeWarne said:


> I don't see how magics are not a puzzle. You have 3 rings, and you must link them. Now, if someone hasn't taught you how to do it, it could take you a while to work it out. Saying it's not a puzzle is stupid. Definition: Puzzle: A game, toy, or problem designed to test ingenuity or knowledge.
> 
> Even if you know how to do it, magics test your knowledge and see how fast you can do it.
> 
> The argument that magics and master magics are not puzzles is invalid.


 
Ok, serious answer;

No one competes in magic without already knowing how to solve it.

Once you know how to solve it, it is no longer a puzzle. You are simply performing an action you memorised.


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## Specs112 (Dec 13, 2011)

Muesli said:


> It brings the kids along and gives them something to do. I don't see how this is a bad thing.


 
It irks me how often this, or the other dead horse argument that it "doesn't take up that much time", gets brought up in Magic discussions.

As if saying that puts up a magic wall that allows you to ignore the obvious fact that it isn't even a puzzle.


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## emolover (Dec 13, 2011)

Instead of having us do "solves" I think they should actually scramble your magic and have you get it to the "scrambled" or "solved" position.

Just a thought.


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## garcijo (Dec 13, 2011)

The objective of an event is not entertaining children or ending fast.


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## qqwref (Dec 13, 2011)

Kirjava said:


> Magic has the potential to give speedcubing a bad image, more so the bigger it gets.


The only "bad image" I could see is that we have an event that seems to be intended for younger competitors. Older and more experienced people generally only compete in the event for the purposes of ranking/awards. So I don't see this as something to be embarrassed about.



Kirjava said:


> People would have a lot of fun at an orgy at a competition,


I'm inclined to disagree; I think this would have a strong negative impact on the sum of the fun.



Kirjava said:


> I'm talking about Magic/MasterMagic as an event. We do not treat it as a puzzle.


And that's my point. Nobody ever said that the event itself had to be a puzzle. Even in the WCA regulations, only the objects are referred to as puzzles. "Solve a T-perm" would be a valid event, with the puzzle in that case being the 3x3x3.

Besides, I feel like it's worth pointing out that outside of a cubing context many puzzles - probably most of them - are solved the same way every time. There are comparatively few puzzles out there where you can NOT get by by memorizing one move sequence.

(Extra clarification: in the sense used by most people in the world, Magic is a puzzle, even in the way we're doing it. It's not a twisty puzzle, but that's not a requirement to be used in cubing (see: Clock).)



teller said:


> If Magic were invented today, and did not have the "Rubik's" brand on it, it would never become an event.


IMO, what matters is that it already is an event - and already is popular. Removing a puzzle, and adding a puzzle, don't have the same magnitude of effect.


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## Muesli (Dec 13, 2011)

Specs112 said:


> It irks me how often this, or the other dead horse argument that it "doesn't take up that much time", gets brought up in Magic discussions.
> 
> As if saying that puts up a magic wall that allows you to ignore the obvious fact that it isn't even a puzzle.


 
So what?


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## kinch2002 (Dec 13, 2011)

Muesli said:


> It brings the kids along and gives them something to do. I don't see how this is a bad thing.


As Kir would say 'So would orgys'. But in all seriousness, there's better alternatives like providing some ball-in-a cups

EDIT: I just realised I replied twice in separate posts to the same argument. Clearly I have too many reasons


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## Muesli (Dec 13, 2011)

kinch2002 said:


> As Kir would say 'So would orgys'. But in all seriousness, there's better alternatives like providing some ball-in-a cups


 
But magic's are already pretty rooted in the community, unlike the quintessential ball-in-cup. Removing them from competition is just extra work for very little pay off, if any.


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## kinch2002 (Dec 13, 2011)

Muesli said:


> But magic's are already pretty rooted in the community, unlike the quintessential ball-in-cup. Removing them from competition is just extra work for very little pay off, if any.


Then I refer you too my previous reply on the last page, which contained a suggestion that would require no extra work, apart from a deleting a couple of lines from the regs. And then running it unofficially would be less work than it normally is


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## Kirjava (Dec 13, 2011)

qqwref said:


> The only "bad image" I could see is that we have an event that seems to be intended for younger competitors. Older and more experienced people generally only compete in the event for the purposes of ranking/awards. So I don't see this as something to be embarrassed about.



Magic is already something that many regard as a joke.



qqwref said:


> I'm inclined to disagree; I think this would have a strong negative impact on the sum of the fun.



Replace orgy with [insert fun activity here]. No need to ignore the point ^^.



qqwref said:


> And that's my point. Nobody ever said that the event itself had to be a puzzle. Even in the WCA regulations, only the objects are referred to as puzzles. "Solve a T-perm" would be a valid event, with the puzzle in that case being the 3x3x3.



Many people here are saying that it has to be a puzzle. We want puzzles to solve.



qqwref said:


> esides, I feel like it's worth pointing out that outside of a cubing context many puzzles - probably most of them - are solved the same way every time. There are comparatively few puzzles out there where you can NOT get by by memorizing one move sequence.



People would rather compete in twistypuzzles than ones where you need to memorise a single sequence.



qqwref said:


> IMO, what matters is that it already is an event - and already is popular. Removing a puzzle, and adding a puzzle, don't have the same magnitude of effect.


 
Yes. It is indeed a shame that it is starting to get late and Magic is hanging around. I'm hoping that we can get rid of it now, otherwise it's gonna be here forever


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## JustinJ (Dec 13, 2011)

kinch2002 said:


> As Kir would say 'So would orgys'. But in all seriousness, there's better alternatives like providing some ball-in-a cups


 
You and everyone else here know it's much more fun to compete when you can look at your results after and see your name up on the WCA page, especially if you're new. 

It should be considered that a lot of cubers have no choice but to get their parents to bring them to a competition, and if that entire process is going to be filled with a complaining younger sibling, it's much less likely to happen.


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## Kirjava (Dec 13, 2011)

JustinJ said:


> You and everyone else here know it's much more fun to compete when you can look at your results after, and see your name up on the WCA page, especially if you're new.


 
http://speedcubing.com/results/

Maybe the WCA could even start an 'unofficial' section.


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## Muesli (Dec 13, 2011)

kinch2002 said:


> Then I refer you too my previous reply on the last page, which contained a suggestion that would require no extra work, apart from a deleting a couple of lines from the regs. And then running it unofficially would be less work than it normally is


 
But surely that'd take some of the draw out of it? You can bring a unicycle to a cubing event if you like, but there's no point unless it feels like you're actually competing.


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## Stefan (Dec 13, 2011)

Kirjava said:


> No one competes in magic without already knowing how to solve it.
> 
> Once you know how to solve it, it is no longer a puzzle.


 
No one competes in 3x3x3 without already knowing how to solve it.

Once you know how to solve it, it is no longer a puzzle.


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## Specs112 (Dec 13, 2011)

benskoning said:


> keep magic i am teaching my friend to solve a 3x3 and he started with a magic also keep it because its my best event



That's not an argument.



JustinJ said:


> You and everyone else here know it's much more fun to compete when you can look at your results after, and see your name up on the WCA page, especially if you're new.
> 
> It should be considered that a lot of cubers have no choice but to get their parents to bring them to a competition, and if that entire process is going to be filled with a complaining younger sibling, it's much less likely to happen.


 
Teach the "complaining younger sibling" to solve an actual cube then. It's not that hard.


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## Muesli (Dec 13, 2011)

Specs112 said:


> Teach the "complaining younger sibling" to solve an actual cube then. It's not that hard.



My girlfriend, amongst other people, can't be bothered. It takes some effort. Magic is a minute lesson.


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## kinch2002 (Dec 13, 2011)

Muesli said:


> My girlfriend, amongst other people, can't be bothered. It takes some effort. Magic is a minute lesson.


If they're not bothered to learn real cubes, then why cater for them at an official speedcubing event?


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## Kirjava (Dec 13, 2011)

Stefan said:


> No one competes in 3x3x3 without already knowing how to solve it.
> 
> Once you know how to solve it, it is no longer a puzzle.


 
Once you know how to solve /Magic/ it is no longer a puzzle.

3x3x3 requires a new position to be solved the next time you do it.


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## Muesli (Dec 13, 2011)

kinch2002 said:


> If they're not bothered to learn real cubes, then why cater for them at an official speedcubing event?


 
Because they're going to come along anyway to spectate. It's like not putting up wheelchair ramps at a running event.


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## Specs112 (Dec 13, 2011)

Stefan said:


> No one competes in 3x3x3 without already knowing how to solve it.
> 
> Once you know how to solve it, it is no longer a puzzle.



Every Magic solve is literally exactly the same, since it's not scrambled. On ALL OTHER events, there is still a puzzle aspect of variety, and everything except Magic are things that one can improve at in ways other than pure hand movements.

One competes in Magic knowing one's exact solution. One competes in anything else knowing certain basic principles. Completely different.



kinch2002 said:


> If they're not bothered to learn real cubes, then why cater for them at an official speedcubing event?



This.


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## kinch2002 (Dec 13, 2011)

Muesli said:


> Because they're going to come along anyway to spectate. It's like not putting up wheelchair ramps at a running event.


It kind of is actually, in mindset anyway.

EDIT: Apparently there was some confusion. I'm saying that you shouldn't put wheelchair ramps ON the track so that they can compete. And I'm comparing doing that to having magics


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## keyan (Dec 13, 2011)

mitch1234 said:


> ...The only people that don't like Magic are the people who just aren't good at it...


Plenty to be said about magics, but first this. Among those opposed to magics as official events are THE Bob Burton, former world record holder, and Yuxuan Wang, current world record holder.


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## cmhardw (Dec 13, 2011)

1976 competitors in Magic during 2011 (up to Dec. 12th)
http://worldcubeassociation.org/res...ears=only+2011&show=All+Persons&single=Single

898 competitors in Master Magic during 2011 (up to Dec. 12th)
http://worldcubeassociation.org/res...ears=only+2011&show=All+Persons&single=Single

It seems strange to me to remove a very popular event that is not hindering the organizers to any real extent (not like the old style multiBLD hindered organizers).

If there are any organizers who say that they feel strongly that Magic and Master Magic should be removed, then I would take this as strong evidence that the event should be removed. I don't think the votes either for or against the removal of these events that come from competitors should be given as much weight as the votes from Organizers. If Ron, or Tyson, or Tim, or Bob, or others who help organize very large scale competitions feel that it is for the greater good to remove these events, then I feel we may want to consider their removal at that point.

On a side note, I don't like all this talk of "remove event X" lately. It seems that events now will become popularity contests in the future. Should we even practice newer events (or events on the chopping block so to speak) since they may likely be removed in the very near future?


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## Kirjava (Dec 13, 2011)

Muesli said:


> Because they're going to come along anyway to spectate. It's like not putting up wheelchair ramps at a running event.


 
Nah, it's like not putting wheelchair ramps going up to the 100m track.


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## JustinJ (Dec 13, 2011)

Kirjava said:


> http://speedcubing.com/results/
> 
> Maybe the WCA could even start an 'unofficial' section.


 
Putting them in a different section would completely defeat the purpose of making them feel connected to and part of the experience.



kinch2002 said:


> If they're not bothered to learn real cubes, then why cater for them at an official speedcubing event?


 


JustinJ said:


> It should be considered that a lot of cubers have no choice but to get their parents to bring them to a competition, and if that entire process is going to be filled with a complaining younger sibling, it's much less likely to happen.



Perhaps you see it as catering to the non cubers, but my point is that it's useful to those who need their parents to drive them as well.


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## Kirjava (Dec 13, 2011)

cmhardw said:


> On a side note, I don't like all this talk of "remove event X" lately. It seems that events now will become popularity contests in the future. Should we even practice newer events (or events on the chopping block so to speak) since they may likely be removed in the very near future?


 
Magic is the only event coming close to being removed, and that is probably not going to happen.

No need to worry.


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## Specs112 (Dec 13, 2011)

JustinJ said:


> Putting them in a different section would completely defeat the purpose of making them feel connected to and part of the experience.


 
They're not connected to the experience. They're not part of the experience. They're not _solving._



Kirjava said:


> Magic is the only event coming close to being removed, and that is probably not going to happen.
> 
> No need to worry.


 
Someone needs to start a joke 3x3 removal petition as a commentary on this debate.


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## mitch1234 (Dec 13, 2011)

Kirjava said:


> Magic is the only event coming close to being removed, and that is probably not going to happen.
> 
> No need to worry.


 Since it is probably not going to happen then what was the purpose of this thread?


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## Kirjava (Dec 13, 2011)

mitch1234 said:


> Since it is probably not going to happen then what was the purpose of this thread?


 
I assume most regulations suggested are not going to happen.

I discuss the ones I care about in the hope that some of them may go through


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## JustinJ (Dec 13, 2011)

Specs112 said:


> They're not connected to the experience. They're not part of the experience. They're not _solving._



Did you read anything I wrote before this? The point is that they _feel_ connected, not that they are by some definition you come up with.


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## kinch2002 (Dec 13, 2011)

mitch1234 said:


> Since it is probably not going to happen then what was the purpose of this thread?


To spread the good word.

Also, thanks Chris H for a post that has some good points in it


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## Specs112 (Dec 13, 2011)

JustinJ said:


> Did you read anything I wrote before this?


 
Yes, and I disagreed with the majority of it.


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## Kirjava (Dec 13, 2011)

Idea!



> 01:30 <+Kirjava> you know what would be ****ing awesome
> 01:30 <+Kirjava> is that if we rotated what event magic was every year
> 01:30 <+Kirjava> this year it's magic
> 01:31 <+Kirjava> next year it's ball in a cup
> ...


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## Meep (Dec 13, 2011)

Specs112 said:


> Yes, and I disagreed with the majority of it.


 
I think he meant your previous post was irrelevant to the point he was trying to make. Like, you disagreed with the majority of something you misunderstood.


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## qqwref (Dec 13, 2011)

Some interesting ideas I just had...

- I think some people see the debate as between "Magic is dumb, so it shouldn't be an event" and "Magic is not dumb". But this isn't the case. It's a debate between "Magic is dumb, so it shouldn't be an event" and "Magic is dumb, but people enjoy it, so it should be an event".

- teller said that if Magic wasn't an event now then it wouldn't be added. I think it's reasonable to say the same thing about Clock. Without that event, all WCA event puzzles (except Magics) would be twisty puzzles, and I think people would see Clock as some random other puzzle that doesn't belong in speedcubing, like how we see other Rubik creations now.

- I agree Magic is not particularly dignified. Neither is feetsolving. And so, if a competition organizer wants to hold an especially dignified competition (that is, a competition that people will respect), they are free to specifically not hold Magic and feetsolving events. It's similar to how, if an organizer wants to hold an especially fast-paced competition, they are free to specifically not hold BLD events or bigcubes. I think it's good for people to have this option, because there will always be competitors who just want to have fun and record official times, and don't care about whether they are being dignified or fast-paced.


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## Kirjava (Dec 13, 2011)

qqwref said:


> And so, if a competition organizer wants to hold an especially dignified competition (that is, a competition that people will respect), they are free to specifically not hold Magic and feetsolving events.


 
Not possible at Worlds, which is the competition we wish to be the most respected.


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## cityzach (Dec 13, 2011)

Kirjava said:


> Is anyone strongly against removing these events? If so, why?
> 
> It should be obvious why these events should be removed.


 
ugh. I really don't understand why everybody think's these events should be removed. Yea, obviously its easy, and you are doing the same thing every time, but you do the same thing every time on cubic puzzles too. And skill is required to get FAST times. Just please do not remove them.

EDIT: If you do not like the event, then don't compete in it. simple. don't ruin the experience for everyone else.


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## qqwref (Dec 13, 2011)

Kirjava said:


> Not possible at Worlds, which is the competition we wish to be the most respected.


If the older and more skilled members of the cubing community see Magic as a pretty silly event, I don't see any reason to crown a World Champion in it (unless someone, e.g. Seventowns, pays for prize money for it, of course). The Magic winner of a major championship is often just someone moderately fast who got lucky and didn't mess up, anyway...


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## chrissyD (Dec 13, 2011)

cityzach said:


> but you do the same thing every time on cubic puzzles too.



No you don't


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## mitch1234 (Dec 13, 2011)

cityzach said:


> ugh. I really don't understand why everybody think's these events should be removed. Yea, obviously its easy, and you are doing the same thing every time, but you do the same thing every time on cubic puzzles too. And skill is required to get FAST times. Just please do not remove them.


 Zach and I are both in the same boat, the event is not hurting anyone, it does not cause major amounts of stress to run, and there are people who care about the event. It is like making a thread about 5BLD being removed because not enough people do it, that small group of people surely likes the event and doesn't want to see it go.


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## uberCuber (Dec 13, 2011)

cityzach said:


> I really don't understand why everybody think's these events should be removed.



Maybe because not everyone does.



> Yea, obviously its easy, and you are doing the same thing every time, but you do the same thing every time on cubic puzzles too.



Except not. Nearly every single solve you will ever do on a cube (or pyraminx, megaminx, etc.) will be different in some way. You are *not* doing the same thing every time in the sense that you are with magic.



> Just please do not remove them.


 
This was the most convincing part of the whole post.


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## chrissyD (Dec 13, 2011)

cityzach said:


> but you do the same thing every time on cubic puzzles too. And skill is required to get FAST times. Just please do not remove them.



I'm also pretty sure I never do the same thing on my 2x2 as my 4x4 and they are both cubic.

A 3x3 has so many ways in which it can be solved. The magic only has a few very easy solutions. We may as well replace magic with speed origami crane making or ball in a cup. They are all just as pointless and easy.


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## Kirjava (Dec 13, 2011)

cityzach said:


> ^ cool. Now like Mitch said, magics aren't hurting anyone. So why remove them?


 
Please read the thread before posting in it.


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## macky (Dec 13, 2011)

I am for removal.

I'm fine with the argument that since Magic is already a popular event, removal should be justified by serious negatives. Here are two:

1. (in response to qqwref)
The very fact that the WCA recognizes rankings, awards, and World Champions for Magic may lead non-cubers to question the seriousness of the organization. To be sure, we'd need to ask some non-cubers, but I'm too embarrassed to.

2.
At the top level, accurately judging the validity of a Magic solve finish is starting to become difficult (hands flat? palms or wrist?). The Board has already had to retroactively +2 record-setting attempts. With non-expert judges, there are likely competitors at all levels who regularly violate the rules without realizing it, which threatens the integrity of the whole event. On the other hand, requiring videos is not feasible.

[edit: moved up from below]
Discussion along the line of "is Magic a puzzle?" has already been played out on a very superficial level. Please contribute something meaningful or GTFO.


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## ben1996123 (Dec 13, 2011)

There is no reason. It doesn't take long and it's a good warm up event. Some people like it a lot. If you don't like it, don't compete in it.


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## cmhardw (Dec 13, 2011)

macky said:


> I am for removal.
> 
> I'm fine with the argument that since Magic is already a popular event, removal should be justified by serious negatives. Here are two:
> 
> ...


 
This last one is a very good point. Even sport stacking requires video analysis of ALL attempts at the top level. At the World Sport Stacking competition they film all attempts in the final round, and all records are "provisional" until verified by video analysis.

For the most part I am against the removal of magics, but this is a very damning piece of evidence that Macky brings up.


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## Lucas Garron (Dec 13, 2011)

Most good points are already being brought up.
The first time I got involved at a competition was Stanford Winter 2008, and it was when I asked Tyson if we could hold Magics. He told me we could hold magic if I judged the event. So I did, and I've been following that model: Judge one responsible person, have them judge everyone else.

1) Magics have been around for a people. Quite a few people like them, and are used to them. If we're going to have such events at all, I think this is a much stronger reason for keeping events like magics, rather than, say, feet.
2) It's pretty fast and takes few resources to hold (1 judge, 1 station, ~30 minutes for a normal CA competition).
3) Even if it's just a dexterity puzzle, there's nothing intrinsically wrong with that. I think Magics are a reasonable choice for such events.

I'm not sure if I would be in favor of adding magics if they weren't events right now, but I think they're worth keeping.

EDIT: Just to clarify, these points are my personal opinion. Here I'm just stating the points that I find personally most relevant.


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## keyan (Dec 13, 2011)

To those saying things along the lines of "it doesn't hurt anything, so why remove it", magic takes that most precious to a competition, time. 

It's the hardest event to judge. Hosting the Human Rights Day competition in Beijing last weekend, we had non-cubers for judges. For all other events, it was enough to tell them how the process worked, tell them to call over a delegate if there is any confusion, and just walk around during the competition checking that everything is going right. But for magic, we (organizers) did the judging ourselves. The event just goes too fast to reliably judge. Tiny things (touching the puzzle before/after solving, hand position when stopping the timer) become hugely important at this speed. And the +2 state is a lot harder to judge than other puzzles. For a 3x3 you compare against the next layer. On magic, you're comparing against air. 

There's also the problem of a magic that lands vertically, lands on the timer itself, lands on the competitor's hand. 

Also, being a 'quick event that doesn't take much time', magic is the only event where we explicitly give the competitor time to 'warm up' before solving. The time adds up.


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## StachuK1992 (Dec 13, 2011)

Is someone forcing you to host Magic?


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## PhillipEspinoza (Dec 13, 2011)

What about the idea of making it an actual "mixed" state instead of the same beginning state each time? At least then it would be more than just one "algorithm" which seems to be the major complaint against it's recognition as a WCA event.


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## Kirjava (Dec 13, 2011)

PhillipEspinoza said:


> What about the idea of making it an actual "mixed" state instead of the same beginning state each time? At least then it would be more than just one "algorithm" which seems to be the major complaint against it's recognition as a WCA event.


 
Then you'd have to learn god's alg for magic


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## asportking (Dec 13, 2011)

I don't like magic/master magic, but like everyone else has said, it's good for younger people who can't solve a cube. They don't really do much harm, but if WCA got to the point where there were too many events and some had to be cut, I think these two would be the first to go.


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## cityzach (Dec 13, 2011)

keyan said:


> Also, being a 'quick event that doesn't take much time', magic is the only event where we explicitly give the competitor time to 'warm up' before solving. The time adds up.


 
each competitor only receives ONE practice solve. It hardly takes up anymore time at all.


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## Dene (Dec 13, 2011)

In reply to Chris:

I don't personally organise competitions, although I live with Tim McMahon who organises all of the competitions over here, and I have worked with him a fair bit in his preparations for most of the competitions, and on the day of the competition I am always the person who takes control and manages everything, organising helpers, getting the next event running, etc. etc.

I am for the removal of magic and master magic. Mainly my reason is that I believe the events are stupid and pointless. I don't see any need to bring up more specific reasons, as they've all been said before. But from the perspective of an organiser, there are several reasons why magics become a hinderance. Firstly, there is the extra time taken to print and write up scorecards for bulks of people. Secondly, there is the expense of printing off extra certificates, and possibly also prizes. Thirdly, there is the time they waste at competitions. Even though you can simply ask people to pair up and go, this tends to be a process that ends up being drawn out way further than necessary, with people playing around, taking too long to warm up (despite me always giving clear instructions that there will be no warm ups), and magics breaking. Fourthly, there is the problem with accurate judging, which has already been mentioned; it's so difficult to judge magic, and I can almost guarantee that there have been so many magic solves performed in Australia that should have received penalties but didn't due to the difficulty of judging the event and me or Tim not being informed of discretions. Fifthly, in the case where magics are not held (I should point out that I always object to the inclusion of magics in our competitions) there is usually a group of people that harrass the organisers to hold it, which is rather annoying (this harrassment actually seems to have disappeared from Australian competitions, or at least to my awareness, I guess because people have given up on my stubbornness, woot).

To conclude: magic and master magic are both stupid events that cause a hinderance to organisers.


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## Kian (Dec 13, 2011)

I have never competed in magic or master magic, I don't like magic or master magic, and I think they are silly events. That being said I see no good reason to keep competitions from holding it as an event if they so choose.


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## Dene (Dec 13, 2011)

Kian said:


> I have never competed in magic or master magic, I don't like magic or master magic, and I think they are silly events. That being said I see no good reason to keep competitions from holding it as an event if they so choose.


 
Hypothetical scenario:

I now give you the power to choose between two events. The event you choose will continue to be an official cubing event for the rest of the existence of cubing (that is, it would continue beyond the existence of the WCA, if that were to crumble), and the other event will never be. The two events you must choose between are magic (as it is currently) or [insert any other puzzle of your choice here].


What I am trying to illustrate, and perhaps not succeeding so well in doing, is that you've given no reason for keeping magic, so why not something else? I see no good reason to prevent competitions from hosting helicube as an official event, except for the fact that helicube is not an official event.


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## Cheese11 (Dec 13, 2011)

I think rPotts said at the beginning of the thread that magic was normally held over lunch break.
I think keeping magic and only having it during lunch would be fine.


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## Dene (Dec 13, 2011)

Cheese11 said:


> I think rPotts said at the beginning of the thread that magic was normally held over lunch break.
> I think keeping magic and only having it during lunch would be fine.


 
That is not what he said, and it is not always a practical choice. Because many competitors will compete in magic, lunch won't really start until after magic has been completed anyway, so really all you do is shorten lunch for everyone.


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## TheMachanga (Dec 13, 2011)

We were talking about how skewb will just become a competition of who can start and stop the timer fastest (lol no), but magic literately _is_ this. Any puzzle where people can average under 1 second ON A STACKMAT is just ridiculous.


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## Robocopter87 (Dec 13, 2011)

Alright, I don't understand the issue here... (You failed to explain your reasoning Kir)

So, is the problem that:

a) You don't believe its a puzzle?
b) You don't believe that the puzzle should be classified as cube?
c) You don't lie magic?

If you dislike Magic, then just don't compete. A lot of others find it fun. personally I enjoy flipping the piece of plastic around for fun, its entertaining and its testing my dexterity. Its fun to be able to solve.

Isn't this what this is all about, isn't cubing supposed to be a hobby for entertainment? Isn't cubing supposed to test your knowledge and a few other characteristics(including Dexterity)? 

I'm sorry to burst anybody's bubbles. But when we break it down to bare minimums we find that the Rubik's Cube is in fact just a toy. Yes, it is puzzling. But nonetheless a toy.

Magic is also just a toy, is it as challenging as a 3x3? Heck no. The thing is so easy to solve, they should have competitions on how quick people can learn them. 

But its fun, and that's what this is about. If you don't like it, then you really should just not compete. A lot of people really enjoy Magic, myself included.

*Failed to explain your reasoning in the OP, that is.


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## Rpotts (Dec 13, 2011)

Kirjava said:


> This decision should not be made on an emotional basis. Do what is correct.
> 
> Magic not being harmful is not a reason to have it as an event.
> 
> The problem is that it is not a puzzle.





WCA Organisation Page said:


> The World Cube Association governs competitions for all puzzles labelled as Rubik puzzles, and all other puzzles that are played by twisting the sides, so-called 'twisty puzzles'... The goal of the World Cube Association is to have more competitions in more countries with more people and more fun, under fair conditions. The spirit of the World Cube Association is that people from all over the world have fun together in a friendly atmosphere, help each other and behave sportsmanlike.



From The WCA Organisation

To me it seems like continuing to hold an event that thousands of people of all ages from all over the world participate in is affirming the goal and spirit of the WCA, dropping them because they don't fall under your definition of "puzzles" violates that code.



kinch2002 said:


> If they're not bothered to learn real cubes, then why cater for them at an official speedcubing event?



Because the goal of the WCA is to establish a friendly environment that allows all competitors to cultivate their skills. People are entitled to their opinion on what puzzles are fun and I approve of having a wide variety of puzzles and events that test varying skills. 




macky said:


> I am for removal.
> 
> I'm fine with the argument that since Magic is already a popular event, removal should be justified by serious negatives. Here are two:
> 
> ...



I don't think that proving how serious we are to non-cubers is important. Many of us find Speedstacking to be unbelievably silly, even more so than magic, but the WSSA still takes it very seriously. To each their own.



> 2. At the top level, accurately judging the validity of a Magic solve finish is starting to become difficult (hands flat? palms or wrist?). The Board has already had to retroactively +2 record-setting attempts. With non-expert judges, there are likely competitors at all levels who regularly violate the rules without realizing it, which threatens the integrity of the whole event. On the other hand, requiring videos is not feasible.


This is easily the best argument for removal that I've heard, however, stopping/starting the timer and +2 issues exist with all puzzles, they are not unique to magic. Just because the +2 is so damning to overall solve time and the brevity of the solve makes it difficult to discern doesn't mean it's hopeless or impossible. (see: 2x2)



Lucas Garron said:


> Most good points are already being brought up.
> The first time I got involved at a competition was Stanford Winter 2008, and it was when I asked Tyson if we could hold Magics. He told me we could hold magic if I judged the event. So I did, and I've been following that model: Judge one responsible person, have them judge everyone else.



That is an excellent model, find the people who are best at magic/the most responsible judges and have them agree to judge, along with the competition organizer/delegate. If we are dealing with high level competitors the organizers should be prepared and willing to judge. Otherwise, just don't hold it if it's not feasible.



> 1) Magics have been around for a people. Quite a few people like them, and are used to them. If we're going to have such events at all, I think this is a much stronger reason for keeping events like magics, rather than, say, feet.
> 2) It's pretty fast and takes few resources to hold (1 judge, 1 station, ~30 minutes for a normal CA competition).
> 3) Even if it's just a dexterity puzzle, there's nothing intrinsically wrong with that. I think Magics are a reasonable choice for such events.



I agree, just because it's not the most challenging or stimulating puzzle doesn't give us right to withhold it from those who enjoy it.



> I'm not sure if I would be in favor of adding magics if they weren't events right now, but I think they're worth keeping.
> 
> EDIT: Just to clarify, these points are my personal opinion. Here I'm just stating the points that I find personally most relevant.



I'm certain that if there was no competitor base for magic, and it was on the table to be added, I would certainly argue against it, but since it's already here, and there are thousands of competitors that would attend competitions for it, there is no reason to drop it.

Note : I do not own magics nor have I ever solved one, I don't like them and have no interest in them, I simply don't see the WCA as my sandbox to legislate by my whims.


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## PatrickJameson (Dec 13, 2011)

Dene said:


> Hypothetical scenario:
> 
> I now give you the power to choose between two events. The event you choose will continue to be an official cubing event for the rest of the existence of cubing (that is, it would continue beyond the existence of the WCA, if that were to crumble), and the other event will never be. The two events you must choose between are magic (as it is currently) or [insert any other puzzle of your choice here].



Feet.

I am against the removal. Magics have mainly been a competition of dexterity and finger speed, which I don't see as something bad as far as rationalizing having this event goes.

Dene's points, sans the printing point, seem to have just been lack of ability to handle hosting Magics(no offense). Your stubbornness could easily be used to prevent people from fooling around, competing later on in the competition, etc. Bob has enacted a strict one practice solve per person per event rule. Anything after that is official, no exceptions. 

[Plus all the points that have made prior, of course]

Of course the event is silly, but I think the reasons to keep it out-weigh the reasons not to.


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## Thompson (Dec 13, 2011)

Keep magic. It's a Rubik's brand puzzle that lots of people enjoy. We should focus on building to the community by adding more events such as skewb, and stop destroying it by removing events a lot of people love.


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## RyanReese09 (Dec 13, 2011)

Kirjava said:


> Ok, serious answer;
> 
> No one competes in magic without already knowing how to solve it.
> 
> Once you know how to solve it, it is no longer a puzzle. You are simply performing an action you memorised.


 
I learned minutes before doing my official solves. I had to work it out mid solve due to me forgetting what to do. Speak for yourself. You can even see the improvement I had during my first solves of magic.


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## Cheese11 (Dec 13, 2011)

Thompson said:


> Keep magic. It's a Rubik's brand puzzle that lots of people enjoy. We should focus on building to the community by adding more events such as skewb, and stop destroying it by removing events a lot of people love.


 
But really, when only a handful of people love it, why keep it? Get rid of it and please tons of other people.


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## Robocopter87 (Dec 13, 2011)

Dene said:


> You failed to provide a single _good_ reason why we should keep magic as an official event.



I clearly stated it was a test of dexterity. Its a fun Puzzle. People enjoy it. This is competing for fun. Lots of people do it. Its just pooping on the party if you are like, "Pfft, not a real puzzle"

Besides, this doesn't matter.

The point is, its already an event. That's not what we are arguing. We are arguing whether it should remain an event.

However, since its already an event. Why change it?

Now, if we were to go into the discussion based upon the judging of the event, which apparently seems to been having trouble with clear cut solves, then I would be more willing to agree to remove. However, if that were the case I would only agree after all alternatives to the current had been viewed and none would solve the problem (Obviously loose definition of ALL).

Why is the fact that since the magic can be solved using the same method over and over make it not event worthy? The 3x3 can be solved by the same method over and over. Yes there is varieties of methods but so is there for the Magic.

All in all, is this really such a big deal as to remove the event?


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## Robocopter87 (Dec 13, 2011)

Cheese11 said:


> But really, when only a handful of people love it, why keep it? Get rid of it and please tons of other people.


 
Whoa whoa whoa, "Handful of people"? Generalize much?


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## Kian (Dec 13, 2011)

Dene said:


> Hypothetical scenario:
> 
> I now give you the power to choose between two events. The event you choose will continue to be an official cubing event for the rest of the existence of cubing (that is, it would continue beyond the existence of the WCA, if that were to crumble), and the other event will never be. The two events you must choose between are magic (as it is currently) or [insert any other puzzle of your choice here].
> 
> ...


 
I completely support adding other events that are popular and fun for people. I wouldn't hold magic or master magic at any tournament I helped organized (Nats notwithstanding, of course), but I really do not see the benefit of removing it as an event. Who is that helping?

Also, I just think that such a popular event that a lot of people like should continued to be official. I don't enjoy it but I don't want to keep others from doing the same and being able to do so in a competitive environment.


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## Dene (Dec 13, 2011)

Robocopter87 said:


> I clearly stated it was a test of dexterity. Its a fun Puzzle. People enjoy it. This is competing for fun. Lots of people do it. Its just pooping on the party if you are like, "Pfft, not a real puzzle"



None of those are good reasons, and if you think they are, either way they all apply to every other puzzle other than "lots of people do it", which is definitely not a good reason for doing anything.



Robocopter87 said:


> The point is, its already an event. That's not what we are arguing. We are arguing whether it should remain an event.



I don't know why you said this, it doesn't contradict anything I've said at the very least. And I have argued for why I think it should be removed, and I asked you to provide a defense of why it should remain an event. Thus far you have failed (maybe I too have failed in my reasons for why it should be removed, but that is irrelevant).



Robocopter87 said:


> However, since its already an event. Why change it?



For the reasons that have been provided so far in this thread.



Robocopter87 said:


> Why is the fact that since the magic can be solved using the same method over and over make it not event worthy? The 3x3 can be solved by the same method over and over. Yes there is varieties of methods but so is there for the Magic.



Ignoring the fact that your question only addresses one issue brought up with magic, I should point out that you have an inaccurate understanding of that particular issue. It's not that it's the same method used over and over. It's the fact that it is exactly the same thing done over and over. The _exact same thing_. No other official event requires this of competitors. And I guess you could solve magics a different way, but you'd be wasting your time, as you'd be doing it a worse way and seeing as magic is only a challenge of who can pick it up and slam it down the fastest, it seems like a bad idea to use a method that isn't the best one. 



Robocopter87 said:


> All in all, is this really such a big deal as to remove the event?


 
Yes it is. Hence this thread.



Kian said:


> I completely support adding other events that are popular and fun for people. I wouldn't hold magic or master magic at any tournament I helped organized (Nats notwithstanding, of course), but I really do not see the benefit of removing it as an event. Who is that helping?
> 
> Also, I just think that such a popular event that a lot of people like should continued to be official. I don't enjoy it but I don't want to keep others from doing the same and being able to do so in a competitive environment.


 
But if you had a choice you would get rid of magic?

It's helping a lot of people, and the cubing community in general, by removing a pointless event that makes us look like a joke, and wastes a lot of time.


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## thackernerd (Dec 13, 2011)

I don't think we should get rid of it at all, I just taught my brother so he could do something at the next comp he has to come to with me.


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## iEnjoyCubing (Dec 13, 2011)

Cheese11 said:


> But really, when only a handful of people love it, why keep it? Get rid of it and please tons of other people.



So you define a handful as 3730 people? That's over TWICE the amount Megaminx has.

My two cents:

To address the "it makes cubing look silly" issue; from what I experienced it already is somewhat silly. Sure, people around me think it's impressive that I can solve cubes/magic/etc, but beyond that when I tell them it is a true hobby they think "Seriously? This guy sits and plays with Rubik's cubes during his free time?" I don't really think it ever will be taken 100% seriously. Also, from my experiences people are most impressed by TPS, which in magic is extremely high (technically not "TPS", but fast folds/etc). If anything, to a non-cuber solving a magic in less than 2 seconds would look impressive to a non cuber.

To address the hindrance in competitions issue, I really think it depends on the organizer/competition. In all of the competitions I have been to, magic/master magic have been successfully and timely incorporated into the schedule. It didn't back anything up (I have not organized, but this is just what I've observed). The only real issue at hand here (in my opinion) is the judging/+2 problem. If non cubers/inexperience cubers are judging, there are times when solves that should have been a +2 weren't counted as such. The only real solution is to educate judges further and be slightly more selective when picking judges (then again, this introduces a time issue).

Just bringing up some of my personally relevant opinions.


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## Kian (Dec 13, 2011)

Dene said:


> But if you had a choice you would get rid of magic?
> 
> It's helping a lot of people, and the cubing community in general, by removing a pointless event that makes us look like a joke, and wastes a lot of time.


 
I don't enjoy always being the person to judge it because we realize that you need experienced judges to do it, and I don't think it's much of a fun event. Its removal would make my life easier. However, I do know that a lot of people think it's fun and I really don't want to take that away from people without a really, really good reason. I do think we're taking ourselves a bit too seriously when we worry a lot about what people outside the community might think. In my opinion, that is a bad reason to make a change. 

Macky's point that judging is a concern is a good one, but I think that just requires organizers to either have good, experienced judges (like on the east coast in the US where it is basically me and Bob judging everyone) or not hold the event. That should be their responsibility and if they follow that the point is no longer an issue.

Edit: In regard to your question, sure. If i was forced to pick between Magic or Helicube being an event I think I would choose Helicube b/c it's something I might actually enjoy doing and it's not so much of a hassle. That, however, is more selfish than I'd like to believe I would be, given how many people like Magic.


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## Bob (Dec 13, 2011)

keyan said:


> Plenty to be said about magics, but first this. Among those opposed to magics as official events are THE Bob Burton, former world record holder, and Yuxuan Wang, current world record holder.


 
No no, I just think that the puzzle should be scrambled to a random state and the competitor must bring it to the solved state.


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## Robocopter87 (Dec 13, 2011)

Dene, it seems you are the one lacking in reason, I stated my reasons. You simply called them not good. You never gave any reason as to why getting rid of the event would benefit others. You simply rode on "the reasons provided so far in this thread". You never explained why my reasons were invalid. 

Dene, Lets erase everything here and I will ask you a simple question. Actually two.

1. Why do you want to remove Magic and/Master Magic?
2. Is there a benefit from removing it? 

I understand why you don't consider it a puzzle. I really do. So please, answer my questions(also, I have no intention of being mean, I simply am debating, sorry for any offense)


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## Dene (Dec 13, 2011)

Kian said:


> given how many people like Magic.


 
Do they really though? Sure, many people have competed in it, but do they like it? I don't believe we have any evidence for such a claim.



Robocopter87 said:


> I understand why you don't consider it a puzzle. I really do. So please, answer my questions(also, I have no intention of being mean, I simply am debating, sorry for any offense)



Oh of course, no offense taken, this is all about debating for our opinions. (I should point out I do in fact think that in general magic and master magic are twisty puzzles).



Robocopter87 said:


> Dene, it seems you are the one lacking in reason, I stated my reasons. You simply called them not good. You never gave any reason as to why getting rid of the event would benefit others. You simply rode on "the reasons provided so far in this thread". You never explained why my reasons were invalid.



I think I did explain why they were invalid, namely, that they all apply to any puzzle. Applying them to magic doesn't differentiate it from the bunch.



Robocopter87 said:


> 1. Why do you want to remove Magic and/Master Magic?
> 2. Is there a benefit from removing it?



1.


> Firstly, there is the extra time taken to print and write up scorecards for bulks of people. Secondly, there is the expense of printing off extra certificates, and possibly also prizes. Thirdly, there is the time they waste at competitions. Even though you can simply ask people to pair up and go, this tends to be a process that ends up being drawn out way further than necessary, with people playing around, taking too long to warm up (despite me always giving clear instructions that there will be no warm ups), and magics breaking. Fourthly, there is the problem with accurate judging, which has already been mentioned; it's so difficult to judge magic, and I can almost guarantee that there have been so many magic solves performed in Australia that should have received penalties but didn't due to the difficulty of judging the event and me or Tim not being informed of discretions. Fifthly, in the case where magics are not held (I should point out that I always object to the inclusion of magics in our competitions) there is usually a group of people that harrass the organisers to hold it, which is rather annoying (this harrassment actually seems to have disappeared from Australian competitions, or at least to my awareness, I guess because people have given up on my stubbornness, woot).


Also: The way magics are done in the WCA removes the puzzle aspect of the event, therefore they are not puzzles at all in the context of a WCA competition; it is really just a contest of who can pick up and put down the magic the fastest; due to these problems both magic and master magic provide a strong potential for great ridicule to be brought upon the WCA.

2. All of these problems would be gone.


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## Tim Major (Dec 13, 2011)

Dene said:


> Do they really though? Sure, many people have competed in it, but do they like it? I don't believe we have any evidence for such a claim.


 
When I was at Harvard there were 5 or 6 10-11 years olds spazzing before magic, getting psyched. It was kind of funny, but magic was their favourite events so...


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## TimMc (Dec 13, 2011)

Kirjava said:


> Is anyone strongly against removing these events? If so, why?
> 
> It should be obvious why these events should be removed.
> 
> Do not discuss the removal of any other events in this thread.


 
I'd love to contribute to this discussion but I'd like to ask that you present a case for removing these events rather than putting everyone in a defensive position (i.e. trolling).

Your initial post contributes absolutely nothing in favour of removing Magic and Master Magic and just seems to have been spawned out of a Skewb related discussion.

Tim.


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## ASH (Dec 13, 2011)

I totally support this proposal.

1. It is no mental challange (no puzzle), in the way we do it in comps
2. I would save a little time (at comps) which we could use for an other "simple PUZZLE"


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## MaeLSTRoM (Dec 13, 2011)

I would like to keep magic and master magic in comps for the following reasons:
1. Many people find it fun, those that don't usually dont compete (no-one is forcing you to do every single event).
2. In the comps I've been to, they have been held as the first event in the competition, this allows for people who are running late to arrive, and for people to have a chance to warm up for other events later on.
3. It doesn't take large amounts of time, since most people can solve both the puzzles in uner 15 seconds, an average can take about 1-2 minutes, when there are multiple stations, this is not much time pressure on the competition.
4. It gives some younger competitiors something to do, since some wont have the patience/wont want to learn how to solve a 3x3 or other events.


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## Kirjava (Dec 13, 2011)

Robocopter87 said:


> (You failed to explain your reasoning Kir)



http://www.speedsolving.com/forum/s...nd-Mastermagic&p=684169&viewfull=1#post684169
http://www.speedsolving.com/forum/s...nd-Mastermagic&p=684172&viewfull=1#post684172
http://www.speedsolving.com/forum/s...nd-Mastermagic&p=684183&viewfull=1#post684183
http://www.speedsolving.com/forum/s...nd-Mastermagic&p=684192&viewfull=1#post684192
http://www.speedsolving.com/forum/s...nd-Mastermagic&p=684204&viewfull=1#post684204
http://www.speedsolving.com/forum/s...nd-Mastermagic&p=684219&viewfull=1#post684219
http://www.speedsolving.com/forum/s...nd-Mastermagic&p=684241&viewfull=1#post684241



Robocopter87 said:


> The point is, its already an event. That's not what we are arguing. We are arguing whether it should remain an event.
> 
> However, since its already an event. Why change it?



"We should keep slavery because it already exists"



TimMc said:


> I'd love to contribute to this discussion but I'd like to ask that you present a case for removing these events rather than putting everyone in a defensive position (i.e. trolling).



You need to read this;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet)



TimMc said:


> Your initial post contributes absolutely nothing in favour of removing Magic and Master Magic and just seems to have been spawned out of a Skewb related discussion.



See above.


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## Cubenovice (Dec 13, 2011)

I vote for removal of these events -> there's nothing to "solve", it is just repeating the exact same movement every time.

Regarding the comments about giving the younger kids someting to do at a comp: just teach them 2x2x2 or 3x3x3.
As of the age of 5 I see no reason why you could not learn to solve a 3x3x3.

You'll get more bang for your buck too: you'll spend more time solving a 3x3x3x than a magic


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## da25centz (Dec 13, 2011)

Cubenovice said:


> I vote for removal of these events -> there's nothing to "solve", it is just repeating the exact same movement every time.
> 
> Regarding the comments about giving the younger kids someting to do at a comp: just teach them 2x2x2 or 3x3x3.
> As of the age of 5 I see no reason why you could not learn to solve a 3x3x3.
> ...


 
I think if we want to get kids interested in cubing start them off with something like 2x2. Magic is really unrelated to the rest of speedcubing due to the fact that it is simply memorizing a motion and repeating it. It is purely a dexterity event, where the rest of the speedcubing events involve at least some mental work


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## Godmil (Dec 13, 2011)

I don't have a stong opinion one way or the other, but I find it interesting that so many people seem to think that 'day care' should be officially recognised by the WCA.


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## Specs112 (Dec 13, 2011)

Godmil said:


> I don't have a stong opinion one way or the other, but I find it interesting that so many people seem to think that 'day care' should be officially recognised by the WCA.


 
Heh, yeah, the day care aspect, as you put it, is one of the reasons that I oppose this. 

But I'm an elitist who hates kids and non-cubers.


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## Escher (Dec 13, 2011)

Personally I think we should replace it with 1x1x3.


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## Kirjava (Dec 13, 2011)

Escher said:


> Personally I think we should replace it with 1x1x3.


 
I'd be down with that


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## Cheese11 (Dec 13, 2011)

iEnjoyCubing said:


> So you define a handful as 3730 people? That's over TWICE the amount Megaminx has.


 
But do 3730 LOVE it? I think not. Lots of people compete in magic even though they don't like it.


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## ~Adam~ (Dec 13, 2011)

[fact]If they were released today they would never become events[/fact]



mitch1234 said:


> I feel that no WCA events should ever be removed because they were made an event for a reason.



It was made by Rubik's is the reason.
WCA ≠ World Rubik's Products Association



Kirjava said:


> People would have a lot of fun at an orgy at a competition, but that doesn't make it a good idea.



I was kinda at the pub for the mystery events at the UK Open '11. Is this a 'bad idea' from personal experience?


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## Pedro (Dec 13, 2011)

I agree with Macky here.
Being an organizer and delegate, magic is one of the most troublesome events to hold, since people don't know how to judge it (even I did it wrong sometimes in the past ). And as I want things to be done properly, it's usually me and another delegate judging everyone.

Well, in our last big competition, we had about 120 people. 16 participated in the magic event. We had to call one by one and sometimes people are lazy/not paying attention/doing something else, and won't come to compete.
Also, little kids like to warm up before the solves, some like to borrow other people's magic, break strings and whatever. All that is taking my precious competition time...

You could say "just don't hold it". Yeah, I could do that, but people would be upset. Upset _with me_, because I am mean and don't want to hold the simplest-dumbest "event". 

Others have adressed the point that it's not a real puzzle, it's just doing the same moves every time. I also think an important argument is that you're allowed to do warm up solves before the official ones. Sure, people do 3x3 or other puzzles solves while they wait for the cube to be scrambled. But they don't get to choose what cube is the one which will count.

To those saying feet is also pointless: I think solving a rubik's cube (which is many many more times challenging than a magic) with your feet is much more impressing than doing the magic. So if I had to choose, I'd remove the magic. Also, if it were invented today, it wouldn't become official.

Someone said speedstacking is also dumb. So if they're doing something dumb, should we do it too?


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## Tim Reynolds (Dec 13, 2011)

I've frequently not held magics at MIT competitions because I don't want to deal with it. It's probably the event we get the most frequent requests for (of the events we don't hold). I'm not going to quantify that statement, but yes, people do like it.

As Kian said, Pedro's problem can be fixed by having more strict organizing policies. If you're not ready to compete when called, the WCA regulations say you can be disqualified. We've been enforcing that, and magic is very efficient to run as a result.


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## cmhardw (Dec 13, 2011)

I don't like this argument that "Magic is silly" and "Magic makes us look bad/not respectable/etc. to non-cubers"

From my experience, non-cubers consider the 15 section inspection time to be far worse than the magic events as a whole. Inspection without being timed is clearly "cheating" to at least some non-cubers. I've heard this more than once from parents of competitors at competitions I have organized.

If we are to begin changing regulations for the reason that "this regulation/event/etc. is considered silly to non-cubers" or "this regulation/event/etc. makes cubing appear not respectable to non-cubers" then those people who are using this as a reason should be equally, if not more so, upset at the fact that we have a 15 second inspection rule for all speedsolving events.

To those using the "this is silly" argument as a reason to remove magic, please either stop using this as a reason, or begin a campaign to remove the 15 second inspection with just as much earnestness as your campaign to remove the Magic and Master Magic events.

Please.

P.S. If it's not already clear, this isn't me saying that magics should not be removed. This post is me saying that I do not find the "this event is silly" reason valid when it is only used for the Magic events. Unless the "change/remove this regulation because it is silly/not respectable/bothersome to non-cubers" rule is used across all events, then I think it is poor form to argue this only for removal of the Magic events. Non-cubers have other issues with how we do things in our sport/hobby/whatever we do is supposed to be called. Don't just single out Magics if your reasoning is that non-cubers find the event silly. Non-cubers also find other things that we do to be silly.


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## Kirjava (Dec 13, 2011)

I wouldn't equate inspection and magic as a whole to being the same thing. It would be much much harder to remove inspection time than it would be to remove magic.

It's less 'Magic is silly' and more 'Magic is grouped with speedcubing and we no longer want that association'.

I'm happy to give up this argument though, there are other perfectly valid reasons for removing Magic.


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## cmhardw (Dec 13, 2011)

Kirjava said:


> ... there are other perfectly valid reasons for removing Magic.


 
In my opinion, there have only been 2 valid reasons for removing the magic events presented in this entire thread.

1) At least some organizers find Magic to be a difficult event to organize, and often choose not to organize it.
2) At the very top level of magic solvers, it is possible that DNF solves are being counted as good simply because the solve happens faster than the judge's eyes can follow. This problem can only be solved with the introduction of video analysis to verify that all solves are good. This is highly unrealistic for implementation in competitions as things stand now.

I have yet to see any other valid reason that the magic events should be removed presented in this thread, to be perfectly honest. I think these two reasons alone are grounds enough to remove magic, if the WCA board agrees that these are, together, unacceptable.

I say this reluctantly, as I for one do not want the magic events to be removed. However, since organizers seem to find it difficult, and since video analysis is far beyond the realm of possibility, it seems that magics should probably be removed.


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## Benyó (Dec 13, 2011)

why would it be obvious? i can't see the point
magics aren't really about pure speed as many people think. they are like the faster athletic or swimming events. many people have the skill to be a world champion/world record holder/whatever but only a few are able to do their best on competition, especially in the big comp's final. that's why i think Máté is one of the best cubers ever: he hasn't messed up a bigcomp final for 5 years, even if many other cubers have quite the same general average as he at home. other example: Marcin Jakubowski is extremely fast in magic, but his competition performance is usually pathetic.
in bigcubes or mega it's usually a huge surprise if not the fastest cuber wins but the 2nd best, and it is almost impossible that the 3rd best could be the winner because the differences are so huge. but in magics there are about 10 or 15 quite equally fast cuber and the mentally strongest will win.
i know you think doing the same moves is boring but i in my opinion it's one of the most interesting events both for the public (i mean people who understand it maybe root for somebody but do not compete) and the competitors. and i meant event, not puzzle.
and they don't take too much time.
so, what are your points of argument?


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## cmhardw (Dec 13, 2011)

Benyó said:


> ...that's why i think Máté is one of the best cubers ever: he hasn't messed up a bigcomp final for 5 years, even if many other cubers have quite the same general average as he at home.


 
I completely agree, and I think this is a wonderful reason why magics should be kept. Mate has clearly shown that winning a round in magic is not simply "whichever sap didn't screw up", and that competitions can be repeatedly won on skill and practice in the event.

As for reasons why magic should be removed, see my most recent post above. Those are at least two reasons that need to be dealt with if magics are not to be removed, in my opinion.


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## Kirjava (Dec 13, 2011)

cmhardw said:


> In my opinion, there have only been 2 valid reasons for removing the magic events presented in this entire thread.


 
I disagree about the number, but am happy you see some of the problems we have with the event as it is.


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## DavidWoner (Dec 13, 2011)

cmhardw said:


> If we are to begin changing regulations for the reason that "this regulation/event/etc. is considered silly to non-cubers" or "this regulation/event/etc. makes cubing appear not respectable to non-cubers" then those people who are using this as a reason should be equally, if not more so, upset at the fact that we have a 15 second inspection rule for all speedsolving events.



Umm from what I can tell the argument is that it makes cubing non-respectable to non-cubers AND cubers alike. That is a much more serious issue.

I agree with that, but not for the reasons others have stated. I don't really care that it is "not really a puzzle" and is only a test of dexterity and nerves. I think steeple chase is a ridiculous event, but that doesn't mean I lose any respect for track and field organizations that decide to have it.

However, I do think it's embarrassing to hold an event when we are completely incapable of enforcing the regulations we set forth. We have been revising the solved/+2/DNF rules for years and still haven't found something that applies clearly in all situations, and that's just once the attempt is done. We have no way of checking hand position or whether or not someone was touching the puzzle, etc. We are still many many years away from being able to have video equipment at all competitions (if we ever reach that point), but we are long past the point where it is needed. 

Yes, removal of magics may go against the spirit of fun, but I think the spirit of fairness is far more important.


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## ASH (Dec 13, 2011)

cmhardw said:


> In my opinion, there have only been 2 valid reasons for removing the magic events presented in this entire thread.



Do you really not see the "missing mental challenge"-point? 

Isn't Speedcubing some kind of using a physical and a mental skill at the same time?

If you agree to this there is no other way than to agree with:
Speedcubing is to Magic/MMagic (in the competitive way) as Chess boxing is to boxing;
a different kind of "sport".

(I didn't make that up: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chess_boxing )


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## Benyó (Dec 13, 2011)

ASH said:


> Do you really not see the "missing mental challenge"-point?
> 
> Isn't Speedcubing some kind of using a physical and a mental skill at the same time?
> 
> ...


 
fmc misses the "speed chanllenge", which is actually included in the name, not like "mental challenge"


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## cmhardw (Dec 13, 2011)

ASH said:


> Do you really not see the "missing mental challenge"-point?
> 
> Isn't Speedcubing some kind of using a physical and a mental skill at the same time?
> 
> ...



For the most part your analogy makes sense. If we accept speedcubing as a mixture of both mental and physical prowess let's say, then speedcubing is to magic as chess/boxing is to boxing. I'm sure there is more strategy involved in Boxing than there is in Magic, so this analogy might not work completely, but it sends essentially the same message.

However, I don't think that this analogy holding true is a valid enough reason to possibly justify the removal of magic as an event.

The two reasons I mentioned in a previous post, I believe, are valid enough reasons to possibly justify the removal of magic as an event. I don't think us saying that Magic is not _enough_ a "mental sport" allows us to go against these statements:


> The goal of the World Cube Association is to have
> 
> * more competitions in more countries with more people and more fun, under fair conditions.*
> 
> ...



Magic is fun, and it brings more people to competitions. This is in the spirit of what the WCA is trying to do.

As I see it, the more serious problems are that Magic is difficult for organizers to hold (as has been stated by some organizers), and that it's difficult to fairly judge the world class people accurately. Those last two points, I feel, are far more valid reasons to use if you want to remove magic as an event than the argument that they are not in the spirit of mental challenges to the same extent as solving a 3x3x3 is.


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## Toquinha1977 (Dec 13, 2011)

I don't compete in the Magic events so it wouldn't be a huge loss to me if we were to lose it, but I can see more reasons for keeping it than removing it. Apart from the judging concerns (which will be a given with just about every puzzle and competition) and personal tastes, I would argue that the event is popular enough to justify its existence. Given that most competitions have paid admissions and will charge per event, on a business standpoint, it helps competition organizers recoup their costs for organizing (printing, venue rental, prize purchasing, etc.) even more than an event that will attract fewer competitors. Compare the number of people registering for Magic vs. the events that take longer, like 3x3x3 BLD and big cubes, and usually the Magic will have significantly more competitors. 

As a puzzle, it may present a minimal challenge to most since there's no scrambling involved and the solution will usually be the same for most of the competitors (at least those who are using the speed solution), but then you could make the same argument for "easy" puzzles such as Rubik's Clock (which isn't even being manufactured by Rubik's right now) or Rubik's 360. 

Personally, I don't compete in it myself because it generally doesn't interest me that much, but as someone who's organized comps, it's something I do see the value in.


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## ASH (Dec 13, 2011)

*To Chris*

I read your post.
Hence I got that you would "agree" (or at least understand the proposal); I just think there is a third valid point.

anyway: Chess boxing sounds awesome!  Too bad that I really really suck at chess...


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## Zarxrax (Dec 13, 2011)

I can understand the reasoning for not wanting Magic included as an official event--because its not a twisty puzzle in the same sense as most of the other events which are held. Why don't we also include speed-sudoku, or the fifteen puzzle? Those would be just as relevant as magic. But no one is advocating adding those because they are totally unrelated to twisty puzzles. If we included every potential event that could possibly be considered "fun", then the meaning of the WCA would be watered down, and the cubing aspect of it would be merely an afterthought. As such, its important that twisty puzzle events remain the focus. I think, looking at it from this perspective, magic does not possess any of the qualities which would make it relevant to have this event at WCA competitions. But as others have suggested, keeping it as an unofficial event should be fine.

One of the primary arguments I have seen for keeping magic is that its simple and good for people who can't compete in more advanced puzzles such as the rubik's cube. If that is really a goal, wouldn't it make more sense to actually have an event featuring a simpler twisty puzzle, such as the floppy cube? Sure, such an event would be a joke, but its easy enough that anyone can learn it in a few minutes, and its pretty fun and quick. Why do we have magic but not floppy cube? (im not really advocating for including floppy cube as an official event)


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## radmin (Dec 13, 2011)

Nothing presented here is a strong enough argument to remove the event. 
"Not a puzzle", it's a puzzle. 
Less than a second makes it a joke , I guess 2x2 is a joke too. Multiple people can solve it in less than a second. Besides, the thread starter has never had an official sub 2 single. Only 28 people in the world have a sub 1 average.
Unreported/Undetected penalties, that's the judges fault.

If an organizer finds it difficult to do they an omit the event. It's really that simple. What comp holds all events? I've been to several and never even seen 5x5, 6x6 or 7x7 held. Skipping magic will NOT free up enough time for 5x5.

It's fun, popular and quick if done right. An organizer will earn more than it costs if registration isn't free. Removing it would take away money that could be otherwise be used to promote speedsolving and hold more comps.


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## Kirjava (Dec 13, 2011)

radmin said:


> Nothing presented here is a strong enough argument to remove the event.



Sure it is. You obviously didn't read the whole thread. macky made some excellent suggestions and these are things that will at least have to be addressed if magic is to continue as an event.



radmin said:


> Besides, the thread starter has never had an official sub 2 single. Only 28 people in the world have a sub 1 average.



This is intentional so that my Master Magic results are better than magic.

Master Magic is the event I'm best at. I still want it removed.


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## radmin (Dec 13, 2011)

Kirjava said:


> Sure it is. You obviously didn't read the whole thread. macky made some excellent suggestions and these are things that will at least have to be addressed if magic is to continue as an event.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
I read the whole thread. It's called "my opinion". Magic is already an event. This thread is about presenting a case for its removal. Nothing here has convinced me it should be removed. 

Are you saying you've intentionally gotten slower at regular magic? Sounds fishy.


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## Kirjava (Dec 13, 2011)

radmin said:


> I read the whole thread. It's called "my opinion".



No it is not, the following quote is an objective belief. An opinion is a subjective belief.



radmin said:


> Nothing presented here is a strong enough argument to remove the event.



You presented the statement as if it were factually correct. It is not. The event has major issues with judging that need to be fixed.



radmin said:


> Are you saying you've intentionally gotten slower at regular magic? Sounds fishy.


 
Why so?


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## DavidWoner (Dec 14, 2011)

radmin said:


> Unreported/Undetected penalties, that's the judges fault.


 
It's the judge's fault that it is physically impossible for the naked human eye to determine if something is a penalty or not?


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## purplepirate (Dec 14, 2011)

it's something to do, it doesn't take that much effort to add magics to a competition, and there's not really a good reason that i've heard that it should be removed


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## Lucas Garron (Dec 14, 2011)

Closing this thread. Please see this post.


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