# F3L



## PEZenfuego (Aug 30, 2009)

Have you ever finished solving your f2l only to find that the last layer was already completely permuted and oriented?

I've done this 2 times in my entire cubing career. It only happened via random scrambling (both times when it was scrambled by someone other than myself.)

I was wondering if anyone knew what the odds were of this happening and if anyone else has experienced it, and how many times you have experienced it.


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## cmhardw (Aug 30, 2009)

How much math do you know? The odds are based on the possible permutations of the corners, the possible orientations of the edges, and the fact that the permutation of the corners and edges must either both be even or both be odd.

Also consider how many possible states of the last layer you would consider to be "solved."

I don't want to give it away, try to see if that hint is helpful.

Chris


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## PEZenfuego (Aug 30, 2009)

Great, you're turning a question about a puzzle INTO a puzzle. Fun fun


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## Weston (Aug 30, 2009)

if you know a little about statistics and cubing, it shouldnt be too hard


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## PEZenfuego (Aug 30, 2009)

I know there are 4 possible cases that I would consider solved, but I have no clue as to how many possible LL cases there are.


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## 4Chan (Aug 30, 2009)

If you were to use ZBF2L, your chances are multiplied greatly.


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## Cyrok215 (Aug 30, 2009)

I think theres 11xx some LL cases, It said it on Jessica Fridrich's Speed Cubing Page.


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## Stefan (Aug 30, 2009)

PEZenfuego said:


> I was wondering if anyone knew what the odds were of this happening


About 0.00643%.


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## PEZenfuego (Aug 30, 2009)

HOLY CRAP!

That is much less than what I was expecting. I was thinking along the lines of of .25% or something lol.

Thanks for the answer. Is anyone else so lucky?


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## 4Chan (Aug 30, 2009)

My chances of LL skip are much higher than yours. 

Even though im using only about 4 subsets of ZBF2L, im getting at least 3 a week.


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## Johannes91 (Aug 30, 2009)

PEZenfuego said:


> (both times when it was scrambled by someone other than myself.)


If the F2L was much shorter than usual, it's very probable that the cube wasn't scrambled well and your solution was simply the scramble backwards.

If you want to read old discussions about this, try searching for "LL skip". That's the common term.



Cubes=Life said:


> My chances of LL skip are much higher than yours.
> 
> Even though im using only about 4 subsets of ZBF2L, im getting at least 3 a week.


If edges are oriented correctly, the chance is exactly 8 times as high, which is about 0.00514%.

How many solves a week do you do‽


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## PEZenfuego (Aug 30, 2009)

Johannes91 said:


> PEZenfuego said:
> 
> 
> > (both times when it was scrambled by someone other than myself.)
> ...



See it's my bad.

I am an avid member of saltwaterfish.com, and this board is much similar (same setup). I know how annoying it is for newbies to ask questions that were already asked 400 times (I am a newbie here, but not on saltwaterfish.com).

Being the newbie that I am, I didn't realize that that was called LL skip and even though I did use the search function (honest) I didn't find anything. Thanks, for not :fping me.


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## 4Chan (Aug 30, 2009)

Johannes91 said:


> PEZenfuego said:
> 
> 
> > (both times when it was scrambled by someone other than myself.)
> ...



Thousands. 
(At least 300-400 a day)

I was quite serious, ive had 3 this past week.
I find that LL skips are unique and easy to remember.

I spend at least 4+ hours a day solving and setting up ZBLL cases that i know.


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## Johannes91 (Aug 30, 2009)

PEZenfuego: Nah, it's only annoying when searching for an answer would've been very easy and taken less than a minute. Since you didn't know what it's called and did search first, there's nothing wrong with creating a new thread.



Cubes=Life said:


> I was quite serious, ive had 3 this past week.


But that's very different from "at least 3 a week".


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## 4Chan (Aug 30, 2009)

My apologies, you're correct.

Im just so hyped on the ZB method, i wanted to praise it.
Im sorry for exaggerating my results.


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## phases (Aug 30, 2009)

This happened to me a couple days ago. I finished F2L and the whole cube was done. I was like, word.


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## panyan (Aug 30, 2009)

PEZenfuego said:


> HOLY CRAP!
> 
> That is much less than what I was expecting. I was thinking along the lines of of .25% or something lol.
> 
> Thanks for the answer. Is anyone else so lucky?



@0.00643%
that means, if you do 50 solves/day, the chances of getting F3L are about 117/year... which is pretty high i think


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## fanwuq (Aug 30, 2009)

panyan said:


> PEZenfuego said:
> 
> 
> > HOLY CRAP!
> ...



You are only off by a factor of 100.


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## PEZenfuego (Aug 30, 2009)

fanwuq said:


> panyan said:
> 
> 
> > PEZenfuego said:
> ...



Yes. That would be 1.17 wouldn't it?

You multiplied 50 by 365 and then by 0.00643...not 0.00643%

That's the way I was looking at it...but I've been wrong before:confused:

But one in 85000 odds aren't very good. That's why when it happens, it feels like winning the lottery.


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## elcarc (Aug 30, 2009)

ive only gotten full ll skip once


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## Werner (Aug 30, 2009)

Now i wont spoil the beans but i think someone did some math incorrectly...

Chance of PLL skip * Chance of OLL skip * 4 ( any AUF would suffice ) 

I get this to be 1 case every 15552 solve and every 3888 solve if auf does not matter. 

Cubes=Life if you are using ZB and have a 8 times higher chance of a LL skip then you would have to solve 5832 cubes a week which comes down to about 833 cubes a day for 3 LL skips a week. I might solve 200 cubes a day, and I might get 2 PLL skips a day and one OLL skip. ( I use some modest OLL controll ) 

Personally i think ive had 4 or 5 LL skips.


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## 4Chan (Aug 30, 2009)

Yeppers.

Im surprised why people dont believe me. =/

I quite literally solve for hours at a time. I've had so much spare time since going to college, and only have class for a few hours a day. The rest of my time is spent learning ZBLL and watching japanese cartoons.

Yes, i am not lying. Please believe me.


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## Lucas Garron (Aug 30, 2009)

Werner said:


> Now i wont spoil the beans but i think someone did some math incorrectly...
> 
> Chance of PLL skip * Chance of OLL skip * 4 ( any AUF would suffice )
> 
> I get this to be 1 case every 15552 solve and every 3888 solve if auf does not matter.


You need another AUF in there for the latter reasoning.


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## ben1996123 (Aug 30, 2009)

there are 1197 LL cases, and the chance of getting an ll skip (one of 4 cases of last layer, solved, U U' U2) is 1 in 15552.


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## StachuK1992 (Aug 30, 2009)

What if one does partial edge control?
Just changing from 0->2 oriented edges.


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## brunson (Aug 30, 2009)

Stachuk1992 said:


> What if one does partial edge control?
> Just changing from 0->2 oriented edges.


Gee, I guess that would change the probability, wouldn't it?

Why don't you do the math? Or as I would say to my Calc I recitation group, "This I'm going to leave as an exercise for the student."


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## Edmund (Aug 30, 2009)

Cubes=Life said:


> My chances of LL skip are much higher than yours.
> 
> Even though im using only about 4 subsets of ZBF2L, im getting at least 3 a week.



wth? How many solves do you do a week and would this be the same if you used VHF2L?


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## StachuK1992 (Aug 30, 2009)

brunson said:


> Stachuk1992 said:
> 
> 
> > What if one does partial edge control?
> ...





haha...alright. I'll do this after I'm done my Calc and Physics II homework..I really should be getting to that.


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## DAE_JA_VOO (Aug 30, 2009)

I've been cubing for about a year and 4 months, and I've never had a LL skip. Not once.


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## StachuK1992 (Aug 30, 2009)

DAE_JA_VOO said:


> I've been cubing for about a year and 4 months, and I've never had a LL skip. Not once.


That makes me a sad panda.

I've had 3, and have been cubing for 2 years. One skip was with ZZ.

Also, I've had ~100 OLL skips, and more PLL skips.

Also, so far ~10 CMLL skips.


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## PEZenfuego (Aug 30, 2009)

I've been cubing for 5 years. I only recently decided to tackle friedrich f2l though. I have gotten one LL skip on beginner method and 1 on friedrich f2l.


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## Edmund (Aug 31, 2009)

I've never had an ll skip and have cubed for about a year and a half. I've been getting lots of PLL skips though this past month for some reason.


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## Cride5 (Aug 31, 2009)

Using ZZ for about 8 months, I've had *5* LL skips, and counting ... 


EDIT: A ZZ LL-skip (or ZBLL skip) should happen once in about 1944 solves. Using Partial Corner Control it is reduced to 1 in 971 (~0.1%)

EDIT2: There's a similar discussion here. If you're a big fan of LL skips, try this


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## ben1996123 (Aug 31, 2009)

Stachuk1992 said:


> DAE_JA_VOO said:
> 
> 
> > I've been cubing for about a year and 4 months, and I've never had a LL skip. Not once.
> ...


What is CMLL?

Oh, and if cubing for 16 months with an enormous grand total of 0 LL skips makes you a sad panda, then I may be able to kill you. I have been cubing for 6 YEARS, and I have never ever had an LL skip... Not one... Zero...


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## Sa967St (Aug 31, 2009)

I've been cubing for 2.5 years and I've had 5 or 6 LL skips. I used to do 300-500+ solves a day, but now I only do 50-100.



ben1996123 said:


> What is CMLL?





miniGOINGS said:


> *C*orners of the *INTERUPTION!: Does not preserve the U-layer edges or the M-ring. END OF INTERUPTION!* *L*ast *L*ayer.


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## Enter (Aug 31, 2009)

In my life 3 times oll and pll skip at the same time!
and it was not a record


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## rob558 (Sep 1, 2009)

There are 1212 possible ll situations

according to http://speedcubing.com/ page of algorithms


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