# Tell'em About Jesus!



## ConnorCuber (Oct 15, 2009)

This video rocks! I wish more people knew about Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


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## nateiskewl (Oct 15, 2009)

Hi.

Tell my why your religion is better than all others, so I can then follow it. 

Thanks,

Nate


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## fundash (Oct 15, 2009)

Lol at the vid!

btw, I don't actually believe in jesus, though i do believe there could be a "higher power"
Cubing gods maybe? lol


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## Konsta (Oct 15, 2009)

fundash said:


> Lol at the vid!
> 
> btw, I don't actually believe in jesus, though i do believe there could be a "higher power"
> _Cubing gods_ maybe? lol



You mean like Nakajima?


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## fundash (Oct 15, 2009)

Konsta said:


> fundash said:
> 
> 
> > Lol at the vid!
> ...



lol, sure, whatever floats your boat


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## qqwref (Oct 15, 2009)

This guy has some pretty sick flow.


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## trying-to-speedcube... (Oct 15, 2009)

I believe in Jesus.

But only if it's about Olivér.


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## Chuck (Oct 15, 2009)

ConnorCuber said:


> I wish more people knew about Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!




Yeah? I wish more people knew about what this man knew.






Video description:_
Is Jesus God?

Did Jesus ever claim to be God?

What kind of nature did Jesus have?

Was Jesus Christ really crucified ?

Who is God and Jesus in the Bible?

Dr. Dirks is a former minister (deacon) of the United Methodist Church and revert to Islam.

He holds a Master's degree in Divinity from Harvard University and a Doctorate in Psychology from the University of Denver.

Author of "The Cross and the Crescent: An Interfaith Dialogue between Christianity and Islam" (2001), and "Abraham: The Friend of God" (2002).

He has published over 60 articles in the field of clinical psychology, and over 150 articles on Arabian horses.

The Topic: From Jesus to Muhammad: A History of Early Christianity

A talk by Dr Jerald Dirks _


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## Konsta (Oct 15, 2009)

fundash said:


> Konsta said:
> 
> 
> > fundash said:
> ...



Eh, why would I need a boat, when I have faith?


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## LNZ (Oct 15, 2009)

I am an athiest. I do not believe in any religion.


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## Jason (Oct 15, 2009)

LNZ said:


> I am an athiest. I do not believe in any religion.


I'm an atheist as well, although I do believe in religions. They are the cause of much suffering and bloodshed


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## Ron (Oct 15, 2009)

I am anti-theist.
I think it is stupid that people need a god or a religion to know how to live a good life or to feel happy.


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## V-te (Oct 15, 2009)

LNZ said:


> I am an athiest. I do not believe in any religion.


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## CL_Pepsi (Oct 15, 2009)

LNZ said:


> I am an athiest. I do not believe in any religion.



I think Atheism is not believing in gods not religion.


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## CharlieCooper (Oct 15, 2009)

I'm not sure it's a good idea to start the whole religion debate up again as it tends to get a little out of hand.....


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## Escher (Oct 15, 2009)

If La Mizzle says so, I certainly shall 'Tell em bout Jesus'!
("Don't be scared, I got your back")


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## Crazycubemom (Oct 15, 2009)

Cubing Wold is FUN and PEACE ! Not about religion(s) or Atheism .


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## AndyRoo789 (Oct 15, 2009)

CharlieCooper said:


> I'm not sure it's a good idea to start the whole religion debate up again as it tends to get a little out of hand.....



Agreed.


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## StachuK1992 (Oct 15, 2009)

So far, the only negative comments have been 'this isn't a good idea.'
All others have just been mere facts about what one believes.

I strongly believe that we can talk about this here, and I'm tired of people being too afraid of doing so.


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## V-te (Oct 15, 2009)

Stachuk1992 said:


> So far, the only negative comments have been 'this isn't a good idea.'
> All others have just been mere facts about what one believes.
> 
> I strongly believe that we can talk about this here, and *I'm tired of people being too afraid of doing so*.



Just like abortion and gay marriage! =)


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## StachuK1992 (Oct 15, 2009)

V-te said:


> Stachuk1992 said:
> 
> 
> > So far, the only negative comments have been 'this isn't a good idea.'
> ...


indeed. Any place where people are able to have opinions, they are afraid of expressing them, and that does not lead to healthy discussion.


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## CharlieCooper (Oct 15, 2009)

Stachuk1992 said:


> V-te said:
> 
> 
> > Stachuk1992 said:
> ...



I'm not *afraid* of telling everybody that I'm an atheist, I just don't want to cause friction with anybody who has different views. It's highly unlikely that either of us will change our opinions and for that reason I don't see why discussing it here will be productive.


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## Escher (Oct 15, 2009)

CharlieCooper said:


> I'm not *afraid* of telling everybody that I'm an atheist, I just don't want to cause friction with anybody who has different views. It's highly unlikely that either of us will change our opinions and for that reason I don't see why discussing it here will be productive.



+1
As far as I can see previous discussions on religion or any similar issue (politics, morality etc) have only ever resulted in negativity on this forum, and completely detract from the ambiance we try to achieve here. I can't say I've ever seen anybody change their mind. The only useful thing I've ever encountered were some interesting pages on abiogenesis.
If you want to discuss religion, do it in PMs, do it in a messenger chat, or visit a philosophy forum.


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## Johannes91 (Oct 15, 2009)

Escher said:


> I can't say I've ever seen anybody change their mind.


If everybody's goal is to convert others to their world view, it should be obvious the discussions don't work. I think others can believe whatever they want, not my problem -- but I'd like to understand _why_ religious people are that way. Especially when they actually have a reason. The answers I usually get are lame like "That's what I was taught to believe" or "It's so completely obvious!"; there's rarely solid reasoning behind it. If there are people who think they have a logical reason to have faith and can explain it clearly to others, that should be interesting to hear.



Escher said:


> If you want to discuss religion, do it in PMs, do it in a messenger chat, or visit a philosophy forum.


Also talk.origins.


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## Escher (Oct 15, 2009)

Johannes91 said:


> Escher said:
> 
> 
> > I can't say I've ever seen anybody change their mind.
> ...



I suppose that's fair enough, but it's not as though you can't just look in old threads to see why members believe certain things, nor can you not PM the more intellectual religious members of the forum about their beliefs...

I'll concede that they do give an opportunity for more insightful comments from each viewpoint, but imo the flaming and negative atmosphere that is also attracted (and is generally in the majority) outweighs this.



Johannes91 said:


> Escher said:
> 
> 
> > If you want to discuss religion, do it in PMs, do it in a messenger chat, or visit a philosophy forum.
> ...



Good site, I'd never seen that before, thanks. I guess this discussion _is_ useful for something


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## Lofty (Oct 15, 2009)

This was an interesting way to bring up the religion topic again. You should have just linked to Trip Lee lol. Like his real vision music video with Tedashii that got on 106 and Park. 
I agree with Johannes. Its very unlikely that anyone is actually going to change their mind on a public forum like this. But it can lead to a very interesting discussion and there are a few of us here that are very religious and some that are very not religious who are able to discuss things in a civilized manner. And who knows then people will have information to maybe change their view at a later date and will know more about others world-views. 
If we look in the past, I think there has been little flaming. No more than has already been in this thread with religious beliefs called stupid. We have actually had very good discussion in the past and the most negative comments come from people so convinced that a discussion of religion will not turn out right. 
Each religion thread just turns into a thread where we talk about whether or not we can talk about religion. If you don't want to learn about different peoples world-views than you can avoid threads about religion. This one made it quite obvious what you were getting into.
Johannes do you have any specific questions for why others and I are Christians? Or just that broad question?


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## Escher (Oct 15, 2009)

Lofty said:


> This was an interesting way to bring up the religion topic again. You should have just linked to Trip Lee lol. Like his real vision music video with Tedashii that got on 106 and Park.
> I agree with Johannes. Its very unlikely that anyone is actually going to change their mind on a public forum like this. But it can lead to a very interesting discussion and there are a few of us here that are very religious and some that are very not religious who are able to discuss things in a civilized manner. And who knows then people will have information to maybe change their view at a later date and will know more about others world-views.
> If we look in the past, I think there has been little flaming. No more than has already been in this thread with religious beliefs called stupid. We have actually had very good discussion in the past and the most negative comments come from people so convinced that a discussion of religion will not turn out right.
> Each religion thread just turns into a thread where we talk about whether or not we can talk about religion. If you don't want to learn about different peoples world-views than you can avoid threads about religion. This one made it quite obvious what you were getting into.



I guess this religion thread _has_ changed my mind after all 
Nice response, you're right.


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## elcarc (Oct 15, 2009)

Perfect example of what rap should be used for.

I'm not gonna get into a debate on religion, but I'm a Christian, i believe in Jesus, and God, and the Holy spirit.


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## mazei (Oct 15, 2009)

I'm a Muslim and I'm kinda fine with people being an Atheist or what not. Its their choice but if they suddenly take an interest in some religion, why not.

I wonder how this(me being a Muslim) will affect me hanging around some of you if I ever meet you guys(due to the Kosher meat, no pork, no alcohol and stuff, not due to the fact that you guys know that I'm a Muslim).


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## (X) (Oct 15, 2009)

Theists believe, atheists *know *


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## brunson (Oct 15, 2009)

Thank you all for keeping the conversation civil. I always cringe when the subject of religion come up.


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## Stini (Oct 15, 2009)

(X) said:


> Theists believe, atheists *know *



Wrong. The definition of the word (a)theist is purely based on believing. An atheist does not believe in any gods, a theist does. The word (a)gnostic on the other hand answers the question "what do you think we can know?". So an agnostic atheist believes that there are no gods, but he also thinks that the existence of gods cannot be proven and a gnostic theist believes in gods and also thinks that it can be proven and so on.


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## Logan (Oct 15, 2009)

I don't know _what_ I am. I want to be a Christian but I'm a very logical (14 year old) thinker, and there aren't many absolute "facts" proving it (Christianity). I go to church (most of the time ), and prey, and go to youth group things (like camp), but in the inside I just don't believe. It sucks because I lose nights of sleep worrying that I might die tomorrow and just "black out". I really need help here. I don't care if it's "true" or not, I just need something to help me believe, and to make me feel better (Isn't that why they made religions? So people don't freak out about death?). 

Thank you for reading my rant. Any help will be appreciated.


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## Escher (Oct 15, 2009)

Logan said:


> I don't know _what_ I am. I want to be a Christian but I'm a very logical (14 year old) thinker, and there aren't many absolute "facts" proving it (Christianity). I go to church (most of the time ), and *prey*, and go to youth group things (like camp), but in the inside I just don't believe. It sucks because I lose nights of sleep worrying that I might die tomorrow and just "black out". I really need help here. I don't care if it's "true" or not, I just need something to help me believe, and to make me feel better (Isn't that why they made religions? So people don't freak out about death?).
> 
> Thank you for reading my rant. Any help will be appreciated.



Not being a predator would be a start.

on-topic: The point of having faith is that it is just that - Faith. No proof is required, it's completely dependent on your belief (or lack thereof). The trick is not to worry. It doesn't matter. Just believe in something that rings true with you and not what anybody else tells you is right (apart from me, I'm right). Everybody has a freaking out stage about death at some (or multiple) points, but as far as you know you've got about 95 years til you should be thinking about it. Relax.


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## (X) (Oct 15, 2009)

Escher said:


> Logan said:
> 
> 
> > I don't know _what_ I am. I want to be a Christian but I'm a very logical (14 year old) thinker, and there aren't many absolute "facts" proving it (Christianity). I go to church (most of the time ), and *prey*, and go to youth group things (like camp), but in the inside I just don't believe. It sucks because I lose nights of sleep worrying that I might die tomorrow and just "black out". I really need help here. I don't care if it's "true" or not, I just need something to help me believe, and to make me feel better (Isn't that why they made religions? So people don't freak out about death?).
> ...



That's the problem. Everyone is not thinking for themselves. Religion is something you are taught by others.


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## Escher (Oct 15, 2009)

(X) said:


> That's the problem. Everyone is not thinking for themselves. Religion is something you are taught by others.



How do you explain conversion? Or inter-faith conversion?


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## (X) (Oct 15, 2009)

Escher said:


> (X) said:
> 
> 
> > That's the problem. Everyone is not thinking for themselves. Religion is something you are taught by others.
> ...



Someone converts you. There are of course exceptions, but those are extremely rare. After all most humans are religious.


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## HowSuneIsNow (Oct 15, 2009)

suckas to the side I knwo you hate my 88!


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## Escher (Oct 15, 2009)

(X) said:


> Someone converts you.



How can you ever make an assertion like that? 
I know people who one day came to the realisation that they believed in God, and wanted to follow Christianity. People who's parents and peer group were atheist, and had been brought up agnostic/atheist.


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## qqwref (Oct 15, 2009)

Logan said:


> It sucks because I lose nights of sleep worrying that I might die tomorrow and just "black out". I really need help here. I don't care if it's "true" or not, I just need something to help me believe, and to make me feel better (Isn't that why they made religions? So people don't freak out about death?).



This makes a lot of sense and I do understand people who want to believe for reasons like this (having a sense of security or understanding when there normally is none). What I do not understand is how sometimes religious belief leads to ostracization, wars, and human rights violations.


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## Lofty (Oct 15, 2009)

I don't really know how to do all the quoting for this post so I'm just going to type. 
1.) What isn't spread by someone else telling you about it? Is Fridrich not real because a friend told me about it? I don't see what the problem is with other people telling you about it. (X) You say someone converts you like its a forced conversion or something. I think it goes a little something like this. Someone presents the other person with new information that they don't know and that person than decides if they want to convert or not. 
2.) You are right there isn't much positivist evidence for Christianity but positivist evidence isn't the only kinda of evidence and isn't the only valid theory for figuring things out. Faith isn't the just crazy belief without any kind of proof at all. But at the same time yes, you do just have to believe it. But its a belief backed up by supporting evidence. But supporting evidence isn't the same thing as positive proof. 
3.) I don't doubt my faith in God but I will admit to questioning how I'm going to hold up at death's door. I'd like to think I'd be fine but I guess I can't really know until I get there. I heard a story of a minister on the titanic who, when guiding people to the lifeboats was shouting women, children and unsaved to the lifeboats then he dived overboard and began sharing the gospel with all the people floating in the water with him. He then gave his life jacket to a man who rejected the gospel. And I wonder if I would hold up the same way in the situation. But thats a bit of a digression haha. 
3.) This is a pretty good rap video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKYbF6_xqBo
4.) I hope you all consider Christianity. I'm sure you all know by now that it's by belief that Jesus Christ is the only way to be right with God. 
5.) Edit.


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## Ethan Rosen (Oct 15, 2009)

I may be an atheist, but I certainly believe in this man's ability to drop a beat.


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## (X) (Oct 15, 2009)

1) Escher, like I said there are exceptions. But those persons have been affected by other peoples views.

2) The percentage of people that converts from one view of life to another is microscopic. The massive majority of religious people have religious parents.

3) _" Faith isn't the just crazy belief without any kind of proof at all"_ ...???

4) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKYbF6_xqBo No, that's not a good video

5) _"I'm sure you all know by now that it's by belief that Jesus Christ is the only way to be right with God. "_ You're such an open-minded 14 year old


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## Logan (Oct 15, 2009)

Let's not start a fight guys. This was going well.


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## miniGOINGS (Oct 15, 2009)

Logan said:


> I don't know _what_ I am. I want to be a Christian but I'm a very logical (14 year old) thinker, and there aren't many absolute "facts" proving it (Christianity). I go to church (most of the time ), and prey, and go to youth group things (like camp), but in the inside I just don't believe. It sucks because I lose nights of sleep worrying that I might die tomorrow and just "black out". I really need help here. I don't care if it's "true" or not, I just need something to help me believe, and to make me feel better (Isn't that why they made religions? So people don't freak out about death?).
> 
> Thank you for reading my rant. Any help will be appreciated.



Mhm, I do believe that religious behaivour is a way of people trying to convince themselves that they are "good enough" for God and therefore will make it to heaven. I myself completely dissagree that religion is any sort of answer, except for an ignorant one. The point of Christianity is about a relationship with a divine, holy, perfect, powerful, loving God. Not doing this, and saying this, and acting this way, and standing up now, and then praying. Religion is about doing what you can for God to accept you. Christianty is (should be) about accepting what God has already done for you. Going to church and praying won't build your relationship with God, we (I) go to church because I have a relationship with God and want it to grow. Hope this helps, please flame me if you feel necessary.


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## Escher (Oct 15, 2009)

(X) said:


> 1) Escher, like I said there are exceptions. But those persons have been affected by other peoples views.
> 
> 2) The percentage of people that converts from one view of life to another is microscopic. The massive majority of religious people have religious parents.
> 
> ...



1) Yes, exceptions, but in my experience much more common than your original estimate.

2) That's true. However, just because one holds a similar political viewpoint to their parents doesn't invalidate that political viewpoint, does it?

3) Actually imo faith is just a belief without any proof at all other than individual religious experiences and reflection...

5) That's pretty condescending. And it's true; we all do know that Lofty is a Christian with very strong faith who believes that the way he follows his God is the right path.



Logan said:


> Let's not start a fight guys. This was going well.


It's less of a fight, more of a discussion of disagreements.


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## Parity (Oct 15, 2009)

There is only one thing I sorta worry about as a christian is the "Mark of the beast"
But I am not really worried I know when I am gone I will be in a way better place.


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## (X) (Oct 15, 2009)

@5) I only responded that way because he claimed to be open-minded in one of his previous posts.


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## Ton (Oct 15, 2009)

mazei said:


> I'm a Muslim and I'm kinda fine with people being an Atheist or what not. Its their choice but if they suddenly take an interest in some religion, why not.
> 
> I wonder how this(me being a Muslim) will affect me hanging around some of you if I ever meet you guys(due to the Kosher meat, no pork, no alcohol and stuff, not due to the fact that you guys know that I'm a Muslim).



Why should that matter? Cubing is about cubing , not what you eat or believe. Why should a muslim cuber be any different? As you know I met many muslim cubers in Indonesian, I did not notice and difference between , no religion cubers, muslims or Christian cubers, this because it does not matter.


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## qqwref (Oct 15, 2009)

IMO, a sub-10 average is the mark of the beast. Because let's face it... anyone who can average sub-10 is pretty beast.

Well, I looked up the "mark of the beast" concept on Wikipedia and I'm not sure I really get it. I think the "historical explanation" idea makes a lot of sense, that 666/616 are references to some particularly anti-Christian Roman emperor, with the mark being "the stamped image of the emperor's head on every coin of the Roman empire". The idea that the mark is going to be some kind of credit card or microchip seems to imply that technology/society is being controlled by the devil which seems a bit farfetched to me.


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## StachuK1992 (Oct 15, 2009)

mazei said:


> I wonder how this(me being a Muslim) will affect me hanging around some of you if I ever meet you guys(due to the Kosher meat, no pork, no alcohol and stuff, not due to the fact that you guys know that I'm a Muslim).


I assure you that people, at least in the States, would be very acceptive (word?), apart from the occasional prick, of course, and I'm nearly sure people from other places would agree about their cubers. Any cubers that have been a round for a decent time period seem to be nice, accepting people that would completely understand where you would come from. 

Okay. religion rant:
If I *had* to put myself into some category, it would most likely be 'agnostic.'
Honestly, anything could have created us all. Big Bang, God, Allah, a Flying Spaghetti Monster, even an Invisible Pink Unicorn.
I don't know.
I've been brought up with Christianity, and because of being brought up with such beliefs, that's what my brain has been geared towards, but when I think of the vastness of "everything," I begin more and more to think that there is no God.

Think about the Universe. It's big. REALLY big. Like...REALLY big. To 'pick on' one religion, I'll go with Christianity, since I know it the best.
The Bible only tells about things, as far as I know, in detail, that are in our galaxy. Why is this? Why is there no hinting of anything bigger? Because it was written by people. People that, for some reason or another, pretended that the whole God thing was true, and for some reason wanted others to believe as well. The vastness of everything is the thing that mainly deters me from believing in religion.

Also, the corruption in religion bothers me. Such as war.


The Holy Bible has passages stating the following:
-homosexuals should be put to death
-slavery is not frowned upon.

That bothers me, as I believe the exact opposite.

Also, I forget who, but there is a man, very religious, in the Bible, that got drunk and raped his daughter. When's the last time that you've heard anything about that in a service? 
It bothers me that preachers can say they believe everything in the bible, and encourage others to do the same, yet don't cover the 'bad' things, such as this.

That's all.


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## Bryan (Oct 15, 2009)

mazei said:


> I wonder how this(me being a Muslim) will affect me hanging around some of you if I ever meet you guys(due to the Kosher meat, no pork, no alcohol and stuff, not due to the fact that you guys know that I'm a Muslim).



Isn't it halal, not kosher? And the other stuff doesn't really matter that much. At the last MN Open, I probably should've ordered one more cheese pizza, but not really that big of a deal. And the alcohol? Many cubers aren't legal drinking age, and some of us (like myself) are, but don't drink anyway.


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## PeterV (Oct 15, 2009)

I too am a Christian. I know these religous debates can get quite heated. I would love to see others on this forum come to Christ, but the reality is that each person must choose for him/herself.

@ Lofty: I am right there with you! All we can do is present the gospel and then it is up to others to make personal choices. I'm solid in my beliefs and know without a doubt that I'm on the right path. I hope others will follow.


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## Ton (Oct 15, 2009)

qqwref said:


> Logan said:
> 
> 
> > What I do not understand is how sometimes religious belief leads to ostracization, wars, and human rights violations.
> ...


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## Bryan (Oct 15, 2009)

Stachuk1992 said:


> The Bible only tells about things, as far as I know, in detail, that are in our galaxy.



So, would you say that the Bible doesn't talk about heaven in detail, or that heaven is in our galaxy?

The Bible isn't meant to be Encyclopedia Britannica.


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## JLarsen (Oct 15, 2009)

When I look at the incredibly large amount of religions out there, I kind of see devoting to one as arrogant, because you are essentially saying that every, single, other religion, ever, is wrong, and yours is right. Even with Christianity there are different branches, all of which argue amongst themselves. I can't possibly put myself in on of these with complete confidence the beliefs of that religion are 100% true.


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## Logan (Oct 15, 2009)

Ton said:


> Logan said:
> 
> 
> > What I do not understand is how sometimes religious belief leads to ostracization, wars, and human rights violations.
> ...



ummm... I didn't say that.


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## elcarc (Oct 15, 2009)

This thread has opened my eyes. Although I will stay a Christian, and worship Christ forever (don't try to change me), I do feel more open to other religions.


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## StachuK1992 (Oct 15, 2009)

Bryan said:


> Stachuk1992 said:
> 
> 
> > The Bible only tells about things, as far as I know, in detail, that are in our galaxy.
> ...


I mean it doesn't talk about other galaxies, unless we are to believe that heaven is in all galaxies that aren't 'ours.'

Yes, I know it's not supposed to be all-encompassing, but one would think that God or whoever would at least mention such questions.


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## Zeroknight (Oct 15, 2009)

Wow, this is the first topic in my life where no (well see below) flaming has taken place. Seeing civilized discussion, instead of a debate is new to me on the interwebs. I'll contribute later (maybe), but in the meantime, good job guys!




(X) said:


> Theists believe, atheists *know *



Seriously, dude. It has been going well, except for some of your posts, (X). Son, I am disappoint. (yes, it's a meme)


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## elcarc (Oct 15, 2009)

Stachuk1992 said:


> Bryan said:
> 
> 
> > Stachuk1992 said:
> ...



Maybe he doesn't need to, because maybe were not meant to go there.

Although I could be just naive.


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## (X) (Oct 15, 2009)

Sn3kyPandaMan said:


> When I look at the incredibly large amount of religions out there, I kind of see devoting to one as arrogant, because you are essentially saying that every, single, other religion, ever, is wrong, and yours is right. Even with Christianity there are different branches, all of which argue amongst themselves. I can't possibly put myself in on of these with complete confidence the beliefs of that religion are 100% true.



"We are all atheists about most of the gods that societies have ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further." --Richard Dawkins


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## StachuK1992 (Oct 15, 2009)

elcarc said:


> Stachuk1992 said:
> 
> 
> > Bryan said:
> ...


It's not a matter of being naive.
This is a group discussion; one in which everyone has an equal role, no matter what their beliefs.

And yes, maybe we're not supposed to go there, but I personally think that He would tell us not to, similarly to how He said, paraphrasing, "no fruit from that tree."
I've yet to see a place in the Bible where someone says "Don't leave Earth. It's a sin"
If God did in fact make everything, I would believe that he would want us to take in the beauty of other places that he'd made, as well as this planet.

Edit. (x). Just shut up.
Edit 2. Actually, I'll take the time to actually respond to that quote. It doesn't consider polytheism. That fact is weak sauce.


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## elcarc (Oct 15, 2009)

Stachuk1992 said:


> elcarc said:
> 
> 
> > Stachuk1992 said:
> ...



Then again, didnt a whole city get separated because they were trying to go so high they reached heaven? And god knows what was, and what will be, so preventing us from going to other galaxies could be preventing us from getting to proud of our selfs, and thinking we our selfs can reach heaven unnaturally.


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## Ethan Rosen (Oct 15, 2009)

elcarc said:


> Stachuk1992 said:
> 
> 
> > Bryan said:
> ...



When the bible/torah was being written over the course of human history, we as humans did not know what the universe held, and we did not know a tiny fraction of what we now know as fact, which is still a tiny fraction of what will be accepted as fact in a few years. If there is an all-knowing God who is actively engaged in human life, I feel like it would have been smart of him to foresee that someday humans will discover new galaxies, and perhaps one day be able to send unmanned, and eventually manned vehicles. I just feel like it would have been nice of him to at least give us basic facts about the universe, and not a bunch of crap that was proven to be completely false.


----------



## StachuK1992 (Oct 15, 2009)

Ethan Rosen said:


> When the bible/torah was being written over the course of human history, we as humans did not know what the universe held, and we did not know a tiny fraction of what we now know as fact, which is still a tiny fraction of what will be accepted as fact in a few years. If there is an all-knowing God who is actively engaged in human life, I feel like it would have been smart of him to foresee that someday humans will discover new galaxies, and perhaps one day be able to send unmanned, and eventually manned vehicles. I just feel like it would have been nice of him to at least give us basic facts about the universe, and not a bunch of crap that was proven to be completely false.


QTF.


----------



## Edmund (Oct 15, 2009)

Stachuk1992 said:


> If God did in fact make everything, I would believe that he would want us to take in the beauty of other places that he'd made, as well as this planet.



What about the Garden of Eden, which was suppose to be the most beautiful place but God has hid from us so we can't take in that beauty.


----------



## (X) (Oct 15, 2009)

Stachuk1992 said:


> elcarc said:
> 
> 
> > Stachuk1992 said:
> ...



And i would be happy if you actually took the time to read the *ENTIRE* quote instead of picking at the wording


----------



## Lofty (Oct 15, 2009)

Man, the one problem with online discussions. I go to class and I miss three pages of discussion! 
1.) @(X) Did I claim to be open minded? I doubt I would ever use that word to describe myself. I'm open to dialogue with others so that they can understand my worldview better and so that they can understand Christianity better and not see it as foolish as you seem it think. 
I'd like to learn more about others too. Not to convert but its always good to know about what others believe and to understand their perspective. 
2.) Crap is not an appropriate word in a civil discussion. I'm not going to call other belief systems crap even though I very strongly disagree with them. 
3.) The Bible isn't a science book. It doesn't pretend to be a science book. The Bible is primarily about God and how He relates to man and is a story of God's glory. I'm sorry that it doesn't give you a Unified Theory of Everything and unite gravity and quantum physics but that lies outside the scope of the subject of the book. 
I think nonreligious people overemphasize the role religion plays in explaining unexplainable events and in the role of the existence of the physical universe. Thats not what the Bible sets out to do so it shouldn't be criticized for something it doesn't set out to do. 
The Bible does talk about how the heavens proclaim the glory of God so in a sense it does talk about how the beauty of the universe and the complexity of us should give us more awe for God because of how much detail God put into His creation. 
4.) What is this bunch of crap thats completely false? I'll be honest I don't know much about Genesis's primordial history and how that ties into archeology and what if its allegorical or literal whatever but after that I can atleast talk about whats in the Bible even if I'm not super educated on the subject.
Edit:
While I wait for others to respond I thought I would post some stuff in defense of the New Testament. 
I would strongly recommend the book by the scholar F.F. Bruce "The New Testament Documents: Are They Reliable?". In the book it shows that the historical facts in the NT are very accurate, given the destruction of Jerusalem, the diversity in the Roman Empire, and how the roman officials liked to make up fancy titles for themselves, it would be hard to do if the documents were written at a time far removed from the events recorded and if the writers where not either eyewitnesses or spoke to eyewitnesses. Baring this in mind its then much more logical to consider what one believes about the miraculous acts recorded by the same authors. 
One also has to consider such things as no one was denying that Jesus's body was gone. The jews didn't claim it was still there they provided an alternate explanation for why it would be gone. (The disciples stole the body) 
He also interacts with the Josephus text mentioning Jesus and makes the argument that the text most Christians point to is not a later insertion but a later editing. Christians took a text that was originally very critical of Jesus and altered it to make it sound like Josephus approved of Him. 
After you have all that historical background you can consider if you think men would be willing to die for a lie that they made up themselves. If the resurrection story of Christ was fabricated by the disciples after they stole His body and they didn't really witness miracles would they have really stood up under torture and martyrdom? I know people die for lies all the time, thats not the argument I'm making. Would I die for something I know that I made up just to play I nice trick on people down the road?
Edit2: The book is pretty short, 90 pages or so, and is available online if you are interested.


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## StachuK1992 (Oct 15, 2009)

(X) said:


> And i would be happy if you actually took the time to read the *ENTIRE* quote instead of picking at the wording


I wasn't pestered by your belief. I was pestered by your attitude.
Big difference.
And I did read the entire quote. How else would I decipher the wording?


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## (X) (Oct 15, 2009)

Lofty said:


> Man, the one problem with online discussions. I go to class and I miss three pages of discussion!
> 1.) @(X) Did I claim to be open minded? I doubt I would ever use that word to describe myself. I'm open to dialogue with others so that they can understand my worldview better and so that they can understand Christianity better and not see it as foolish as you seem it think.
> I'd like to learn more about others too. Not to convert but its always good to know about what others believe and to understand their perspective.
> 2.) Crap is not an appropriate word in a civil discussion. I'm not going to call other belief systems crap even though I very strongly disagree with them.
> ...



I want to be a Christian but I'm a very logical (14 year old) thinker


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## Zeroknight (Oct 15, 2009)

(X) said:


> I want to be a Christian but I'm a very logical (14 year old) thinker



Now, you're just straight up trolling. Could you please at least try to engage in the discussion intellectually?


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## Logan (Oct 15, 2009)

(X) said:


> Lofty said:
> 
> 
> > Man, the one problem with online discussions. I go to class and I miss three pages of discussion!
> ...



REALLY? I'm not even going to respond to that!


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## Lofty (Oct 15, 2009)

Zeroknight said:


> (X) said:
> 
> 
> > I want to be a Christian but I'm a very logical (14 year old) thinker
> ...



Sorry (X), I don't want to dismiss you but I agree with zeroknight. You are going to start to have to engage the discussion more if you want us to take you more seriously. 
If you truly want to be a Christian I think enough information has already been presented in this thread for you to say a little more than that.
But I could more fully explain the details of the gospel if you would like. 
Btw I have edited my last post to add more material.
Edit: For my own personal benefit, there's no way for what I'm saying to misconstrued as just wanting to have a civil cultural exchange is there? I do honestly care about my fellow cubers and do not want them to suffer the wrath of God when a Substitute has been provided. Plus God deserves to be worshiped by all. I don't want to overemphasize civil intellectual discussion if it detracts from my main goal.


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## linkmaster03 (Oct 15, 2009)

(X) said:


> I want to be a Christian but I'm a very logical (14 year old) thinker



Why do you want to be a Christian?


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## Logan (Oct 15, 2009)

linkmaster03 said:


> (X) said:
> 
> 
> > I want to be a Christian but I'm a very logical (14 year old) thinker
> ...



He's mocking my post from earlier.


This one:


Logan said:


> I don't know _what_ I am. I want to be a Christian but I'm a very logical (14 year old) thinker, and there aren't many absolute "facts" proving it (Christianity). I go to church (most of the time ), and prey, and go to youth group things (like camp), but in the inside I just don't believe. It sucks because I lose nights of sleep worrying that I might die tomorrow and just "black out". I really need help here. I don't care if it's "true" or not, I just need something to help me believe, and to make me feel better (Isn't that why they made religions? So people don't freak out about death?).
> 
> Thank you for reading my rant. Any help will be appreciated.


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## krazedkat (Oct 15, 2009)

So Jesus is your Lord? NO! GOD IS THE LORD... Jesus is just the Christians' savior...


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## Ethan Rosen (Oct 15, 2009)

krazedkat said:


> So Jesus is your Lord? NO! GOD IS THE LORD... Jesus is just the Christians' savior...



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_trinity


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## Lofty (Oct 15, 2009)

krazedkat said:


> So Jesus is your Lord? NO! GOD IS THE LORD... Jesus is just the Christians' savior...



That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. Romans 10:9


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## krazedkat (Oct 15, 2009)

Strange...
A) I'm a Jew, so no jesus
B) God's commandment says to praise only one god, him!


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## PatrickJameson (Oct 15, 2009)

Lofty said:


> I do honestly care about my fellow cubers and do not want them to suffer the wrath of God when a Substitute has been provided. Plus God deserves to be worshiped by all. I don't want to overemphasize civil intellectual discussion if it detracts from my main goal.



Why can't the God you believe in just show undisputed proof to everyone that he exists? I would worship Him then :/.


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## Ethan Rosen (Oct 15, 2009)

krazedkat said:


> Strange...
> B) God's commandment says to praise only one god, him!


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_trinity

Note: I'm not saying I believe in that, I'm just pointing out that he's saying that people who worship Jesus as a God are violating the one god commandment, when Christianity notes that they are one God.

Edit:
@lofty. I was hoping that someone else would respond to what you asked me earlier because I don't want to get into an argument with someone I respect as a person, but I'll just try to keep this as brief as possible.

"Crap" was not an appropriate word for this discussion, and I'll admit to that, but I would like to clarify that I was not calling the religion crap. I was saying that things like the Earth being 6,000 years old, the Sun revolving around the earth, and the idea that someone could fit two of every species that exists on Earth right now onto one ship, and people living to 900 years old or whatever it is are "crap." I mean, I know that there are people who take things like that metaphorically, and I'm fine with drawing lessons out of stories that you don't think actually happened, but I just can't understand how people can believe things like that are actually true.


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## Lofty (Oct 15, 2009)

Jesus is God. The Father is God. The Holy Spirit is God. Jesus is not the Father nor the Holy Spirit nor is the Father the Spirit. 
Thats the basic Trinity. One God but three persons. It is hard to understand or really impossible but thats what is in the NT so thats what Christians believe. It is not polytheism and its not more than one God. It is still just one God.


PatrickJameson said:


> Lofty said:
> 
> 
> > I do honestly care about my fellow cubers and do not want them to suffer the wrath of God when a Substitute has been provided. Plus God deserves to be worshiped by all. I don't want to overemphasize civil intellectual discussion if it detracts from my main goal.
> ...


Are you sure? The Israelites got loads of undisputed proof and then they walked right away. And in my own life I know that when I have great religious experiences and then have quickly been distracted from them. 
And Jesus walking around performing miracles, raising from the dead, and the subsequent spread of Christianity under intense persecution is proof enough. Have you looked into material like I provided earlier before? 
Note even most Christians know guys like Bruce exists so idk how much nonChristians know about stuff like that.


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## Zeroknight (Oct 15, 2009)

Lofty said:


> Jesus is God. The Father is God. The Holy Spirit is God. Jesus is not the Father nor the Holy Spirit nor is the Father the Spirit.
> Thats the basic Trinity. One God but three persons. It is hard to understand or really impossible but thats what is in the NT so thats what Christians believe. It is not polytheism and its not more than one God. It is still just one God.



A good explanation for this would be the one that St. Patrick used. Imagine a three-leaf clover. Each leaf either represents The Father, The Son, or The Holy Spirit. Each of them are separate, but exist within the same being. The Holy Trinity is like that.


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## Lofty (Oct 15, 2009)

I am very wary of any description of the Trinity that goes beyond the basic one of negations. Its very easy to get into heresies regarding the Trinity and until I'm more versed in theology I prefer to keep it simple. 
But now we are getting off of religion and Christianity in general into finer points of doctrine.


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## Edmund (Oct 16, 2009)

Lofty said:


> I am very wary of any description of the Trinity that goes beyond the basic one of negations. Its very easy to get into heresies regarding the Trinity and until I'm more versed in theology I prefer to keep it simple.
> But now we are getting off of religion and Christianity in general into finer points of doctrine.



Wow. I guess this is how those heresies got started (I always kind of wondered). There are so many involving the trinity. Thanks for standing up for us Christians, Lofty.


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## Zeroknight (Oct 16, 2009)

Lofty said:


> I am very wary of any description of the Trinity that goes beyond the basic one of negations. Its very easy to get into heresies regarding the Trinity and until I'm more versed in theology I prefer to keep it simple.
> But now we are getting off of religion and Christianity in general into finer points of doctrine.



Right, I understand that, but remember, we are dealing with people who have yet to accept Salvation, and thus, most have no knowledge of/don't really care for Biblical Doctrine (no offense, guys). And besides, we need to do whatever we can to win souls.

Negations, quantum proofs of Doctrines don't work with people who have no idea what you're talking about in the first place, lol.


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## PatrickJameson (Oct 16, 2009)

Lofty said:


> Are you sure? The Israelites got loads of undisputed proof and then they walked right away. And in my own life I know that when I have great religious experiences and then have quickly been distracted from them.
> And Jesus walking around performing miracles, raising from the dead, and the subsequent spread of Christianity under intense persecution is proof enough. Have you looked into material like I provided earlier before?
> Note even most Christians know guys like Bruce exists so idk how much nonChristians know about stuff like that.



Um. This is not undisputed proof. I mean undisputed as in everyone knows what you believe is true. If your God wanted everyone to worship Him, it shouldn't be that difficult for Him to prove it, right?


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## Mr Cubism (Oct 16, 2009)

If Jesus was here today maybe he would be interested in a extended cross?!


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## Lofty (Oct 16, 2009)

I was more questioning the fact that undesputed proof actually leads to everyone worshiping God not trying to give you proof. 
I purposefully never actually said that undisputed proof exists for us today. There is proof, certainly, but its nothing like writing in the sky. 
There is the classic answer of then trusting God wouldn't be by faith. 
God could also be more glorified in us following Him even though we haven't seen Him. It shows that we don't need physical proof and don't need a rock falling from the sky telling us how to what to do, we have other spiritual connections with God that we follow and lead us to believe in Him. 
But that doesn't contradict what I was saying about trying to prove things. Sorry that I don't have a really good answer for you.


Ethan Rosen said:


> @lofty. I was hoping that someone else would respond to what you asked me earlier because I don't want to get into an argument with someone I respect as a person, but I'll just try to keep this as brief as possible.
> 
> "Crap" was not an appropriate word for this discussion, and I'll admit to that, but I would like to clarify that I was not calling the religion crap. I was saying that things like the Earth being 6,000 years old, the Sun revolving around the earth, and the idea that someone could fit two of every species that exists on Earth right now onto one ship, and people living to 900 years old or whatever it is are "crap." I mean, I know that there are people who take things like that metaphorically, and I'm fine with drawing lessons out of stories that you don't think actually happened, but I just can't understand how people can believe things like that are actually true.


Don't worry about it, haven't you seen enough of this thread to know that I'm not going to get offended and argue but have a valid discussion with you. 
Well like I said earlier, I haven't studied Genesis's primordial history. There are people who try to interpret the evidence different ways to get a young earth but I've never really heard any valid arguments that convinced me. Mostly bogus stuff that was debunked a long time ago. 
Most people who (ministers, etc) who I have talked to have held to the Apparent Age Theory. Personally I think its a little bit of a cop out. But it goes something like God made Adam as an adult and He put Adam in a full grown garden, so He made a universe that was "full-grown" too. 
I won't pretend to have an answer or an opinion on this one. But once you have a belief in God established and you allow for divine intervention anything can happen. I don't like to use that too much because I don't like all the implications of God giving us misleading evidence. 
Personally I wouldn't have much of a problem as taking the primordial history as an allegory. But due to other religious convictions I have a hard time doing that. I really want to learn more about this stuff and I promise I'll be more knowledgeable in the future.


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## PatrickJameson (Oct 16, 2009)

Lofty said:


> God could also be more glorified in us following Him even though we haven't seen Him. It shows that we don't need physical proof and don't need a rock falling from the sky telling us how to what to do, we have other spiritual connections with God that we follow and lead us to believe in Him.



Or He could be testing our gullibility.


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## krazedkat (Oct 16, 2009)

Jesus is the SON OF GOD
The bible says this


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## vrumanuk (Oct 16, 2009)

PatrickJameson said:


> Lofty said:
> 
> 
> > God could also be more glorified in us following Him even though we haven't seen Him. It shows that we don't need physical proof and don't need a rock falling from the sky telling us how to what to do, we have other spiritual connections with God that we follow and lead us to believe in Him.
> ...



+1


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## PatrickJameson (Oct 16, 2009)

krazedkat said:


> Jesus is the SON OF GOD
> The bible says this



You are arguing about little imperfections that you think you are finding. It's not really doing anything to prove or disprove anything.


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## Ethan Rosen (Oct 16, 2009)

krazedkat said:


> Jesus is the SON OF GOD
> The bible says this



for the third time I will give you this link.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_trinity
Please ACTUALLY READ it this time.


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## Edmund (Oct 16, 2009)

krazedkat said:


> Jesus is the SON OF GOD
> The bible says this



But it also says he IS God


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## Zeroknight (Oct 16, 2009)

> Um. This is not undisputed proof. I mean undisputed as in everyone knows what you believe is true. If your God wanted everyone to worship Him, it shouldn't be that difficult for Him to prove it, right?



Alright, if God said to you, I Am here. What would you do? Instantly serve Him right? Why? Because in that scenario, you don't have a choice, now that He has shown you He exists.

By Him not doing that, and instead giving you the choice to believe the internally consistent, historically-accurate Bible, or whatever you want to believe, He is giving you a choice. That, my fellow interweber, is the concept of free will. What you do with it determines your eternity.


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## ThePizzaGuy92 (Oct 16, 2009)

Jesus talk: happens every so often on most forum sites. Never ends happily.

My Input: Buddha is where it's at.


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## ThePizzaGuy92 (Oct 16, 2009)

Ethan Rosen said:


> krazedkat said:
> 
> 
> > Jesus is the SON OF GOD
> ...



for the first time i will give you this link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tooth_fairy

edit: ZOMG LIKE DOUBLE POSTAGE!

SHALL I BE FLAMED?!


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## Ethan Rosen (Oct 16, 2009)

ThePizzaGuy92 said:


> Ethan Rosen said:
> 
> 
> > krazedkat said:
> ...



Once again I will point out that I'm an atheist. krazedkat has made the claim several times now that Christians are worshiping two different God's, and thus the bible contradicts itself by telling you earlier to only worship one god, and I am merely trying to point out to him that according to their bible, no they aren't.


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## PatrickJameson (Oct 16, 2009)

Zeroknight said:


> > Um. This is not undisputed proof. I mean undisputed as in everyone knows what you believe is true. If your God wanted everyone to worship Him, it shouldn't be that difficult for Him to prove it, right?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That doesn't seem very fair :/. It's not my fault I can't believe in Him, and I don't think pretending to believe in Him counts.

Also, why is He bothering doing this? I don't see the gain in having some people believe and some people not believe. What's the point of free will in this case if it is fact, not opinion?

Also, there have been massive wars over this. I can't see the God you are worshiping just letting this happen without doing much about it.


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## Zeroknight (Oct 16, 2009)

PatrickJameson said:


> Zeroknight said:
> 
> 
> > > Um. This is not undisputed proof. I mean undisputed as in everyone knows what you believe is true. If your God wanted everyone to worship Him, it shouldn't be that difficult for Him to prove it, right?
> ...



It's not always fair, but then again, fairness does not equate justice. God is just, He doesn't need to be 'fair' as fairness is subjective, and justice is objective.

He does this not for His gain. He does this for our gain. It's hard to understand, but we are given a choice. We are presented with both sides, and it up to each one of us individually, to decide what we want to do. Our gain from this is the most earth-shattering decision of all. We get to chose what we want to gain eternally (sorry if that doesn't make sense).

There have been wars about this, yes. Someone once said that life is an experiment. God is letting man rule themselves (because they wanted that), with minimum intervention from Him (except for those who believe) so that man can see how well he has done for himself. During the Millennial Kingdom (Doctrine of Eschatology, but for now, it simply means God will rule the earth for 1000 years), however, God will show us how well *He* can rule over man.


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## waffle=ijm (Oct 16, 2009)

I knew there was a reason I didn't want to read this thread...but is the only thread that's not bold on the homepage and I keep clicking it to it goes away. 

Anywho. Nice to see that there's not a lot of rude posts being flown around on such a debatable topic.


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## Lofty (Oct 16, 2009)

Ok, This is my last post here for a while. I'm going home for the weekend so I'll see if I have time to say anything. 
First thanks for the help in defending my beliefs Ethan. We made is so far without any flaming. Lets not acknowledge it enough to let it continue. 
As for Patrick Jameson I'll just give you my theological opinion and hope that suffices. I will try to dissent as little as possible with Zeroknight but I will say that I have different theological views regarding freewill and they may or may not come up. 
I like numbers
1.) The whole concept of fair and good change when you look at things from the perspective of God being most important and not man. If humanism is rejected and God exists to make His glory maximally known among creation and not just make man happy that changes things. To quote Paris Reidhead "doesn't God intend to make man happy? yes, but as a byproduct not a prime-product" The prime-product is the glory of God. 
2.) There are no good people. All people sin against God and since God is in infinitely important being then there should be an infinite penalty for an offense against him. (Think offense against an ant vs a dog vs a human. No one cares if you harm an ant, you can be incarcerated for killing dogs and you can be killed for killing humans or at least spend your whole life in jail. So if you go up a step from a human to God the punishment gets worse. I guess killing was a bad example since you can't kill God lol. But you understand my example anyway I'm sure) So if all people are guilty the concept of fair changes. You don't deserve God giving you any chances so be grateful that He has given us what He has. 
3.) He could be testing our gullibility but I don't think thats consistent with the rest of God's character so I'll count that option out and hold to my other reasons. 
4.) I'm really hoping this thread changes peoples opinions and shows that cubers are nice enough to each other to be able to discuss things like this without flaming. 
5.) I don't know how much what I just typed really adds... But it does help you get more in the Christian world view.


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## Lord Voldemort (Oct 16, 2009)

So... God's main purpose is to glorify himself? (From the quote in part 1?)
Why create humans anyway if the only point of doing so is self-glory?

EDIT: Upon reading, I realize I do sort of sound like I'm only asking for the purpose of sounding rude but I do indeed want to know.


----------



## PatrickJameson (Oct 16, 2009)

Zeroknight said:


> He does this not for His gain. He does this for our gain. It's hard to understand, but we are given a choice. We are presented with both sides, and it up to each one of us individually, to decide what we want to do. Our gain from this is the most earth-shattering decision of all. We get to chose what we want to gain eternally (sorry if that doesn't make sense).



What about those who have been born into another religion(or lack thereof) and have never been exposed to Christianity?


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## Lofty (Oct 16, 2009)

PatrickJameson said:


> Zeroknight said:
> 
> 
> > He does this not for His gain. He does this for our gain. It's hard to understand, but we are given a choice. We are presented with both sides, and it up to each one of us individually, to decide what we want to do. Our gain from this is the most earth-shattering decision of all. We get to chose what we want to gain eternally (sorry if that doesn't make sense).
> ...



Not all of us have such views of free will. 

I am of the opinion that if any person genuinely tried to seek the true God themselves then God would send someone to them. And by that I mean admitting that a god must exist due to creation (don't take that word too far it just basically means all the stuff that exists) and try to seek Him and know that as a man you can't match up to God.
Now I'm out forreal...


----------



## rachmaninovian (Oct 16, 2009)

Personally, this is what I view of religion: you can be given evidence that something is true or not, and you can choose to believe the evidence and accept it or even reject it.
In the society here I live in, we *have* to practice tolerance and accept one another's beliefs. After all, we are at least 4 distinct races, and we have diversely different religious beliefs. I have seen people converting from one faith to another simply because they accept the evidence as provided by a certain faith, and not the evidence of another faith.

For the record, I am a Christian, and since I have close associations with Jews here, I have learned to be more tolerant, and learn about other religions' beliefs? :3


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## PatrickJameson (Oct 16, 2009)

Lofty said:


> Ok, This is my last post here for a while. I'm going home for the weekend so I'll see if I have time to say anything.
> First thanks for the help in defending my beliefs Ethan. We made is so far without any flaming. Lets not acknowledge it enough to let it continue.
> As for Patrick Jameson I'll just give you my theological opinion and hope that suffices. I will try to dissent as little as possible with Zeroknight but I will say that I have different theological views regarding freewill and they may or may not come up.
> I like numbers
> ...



Number 1 was too confusing for me to produce a comment that is good enough for this conversation. :/

2.) Why is God being nice to us if we're the equivalent of ants(or an even lesser example) to humans? To quote a completely horrible source, but which is still kind of relevant, 'God is a mean kid sitting on an ant-hill with a magnifying glass'.

As for number 3, what are you basing the 'character' of God on? He seems like one sly guy to me, basically trying to get people to not believe in him, as I see it.

EDIT:



Lofty said:


> Not all of us have such views of free will.
> 
> I am of the opinion that if any person genuinely tried to seek the true God themselves then God would send someone to them. And by that I mean admitting that a god must exist due to creation (don't take that word too far it just basically means all the stuff that exists) and try to seek Him and know that as a man you can't match up to God.
> Now I'm out forreal...



You need to believe in God for him to prove to you that He exists? :|


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## Zeroknight (Oct 16, 2009)

Dang, you guys raise some interesting points, and I really want to comment on them, but sadly, I don't have the time ats (at this second). I'll still be lurking, and if you need something answered urgently, I guess I could, but try not to bother me. haha jk


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## Lt-UnReaL (Oct 16, 2009)

Fact: It's illogical to believe in something that has no proof/evidence.

Can't argue with that.


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## PatrickJameson (Oct 16, 2009)

Lt-UnReaL said:


> Fact: It's illogical to believe in something that has no proof/evidence.
> 
> Can't argue with that.



That's not even what's being argued.


----------



## Escher (Oct 16, 2009)

Lt-UnReaL said:


> Fact: It's illogical to believe in something that has no proof/evidence.
> 
> Can't argue with that.



Seems like it's illogical to be anything other than agnostic then...


----------



## Lt-UnReaL (Oct 16, 2009)

PatrickJameson said:


> Lt-UnReaL said:
> 
> 
> > Fact: It's illogical to believe in something that has no proof/evidence.
> ...


Heh...I just assumed it was >_>


----------



## PatrickJameson (Oct 16, 2009)

Escher said:


> Lt-UnReaL said:
> 
> 
> > Fact: It's illogical to believe in something that has no proof/evidence.
> ...



Well this is not true. There are some things on both sides that contradict the other side. Some may call that evidence of their own belief.


----------



## elcarc (Oct 16, 2009)

PatrickJameson said:


> Escher said:
> 
> 
> > Lt-UnReaL said:
> ...



Did you realize that everyone in the bible with your kind of attitude died, or lived horribly. I'm just saying, its faith. If right now, a meteor storm hit my neighborhood, and i was the only one not hit, faith would lead me to believe God kept those meteors away. Ill edit the post later when I'm not mad, because I don't want to start an argument with anyone in this thread.


----------



## Escher (Oct 16, 2009)

PatrickJameson said:


> Escher said:
> 
> 
> > Lt-UnReaL said:
> ...



I'm not sure if I understood exactly what you mean...
My understanding of the arguments on both sides generally result in finding that there is not a difference in the actual hard things that are being discussed but the interpretations of them; and interpretations alone aren't proof/evidence.
Though I may've misunderstood you.


----------



## PatrickJameson (Oct 16, 2009)

elcarc said:


> PatrickJameson said:
> 
> 
> > Well this is not true. There are some things on both sides that contradict the other side. Some may call that evidence of their own belief.
> ...



What attitude are you talking about? :|


----------



## Ethan Rosen (Oct 16, 2009)

elcarc said:


> PatrickJameson said:
> 
> 
> > Escher said:
> ...



When a meteor shower hits your neighborhood and only you survive, please post here. I wold very gladly believe that you had some sort of divine help. For now though, I'm fine believing that there is no god.


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## Daniel Wu (Oct 16, 2009)

Lt-UnReaL said:


> Fact: It's illogical to believe in something that has no proof/evidence.
> 
> Can't argue with that.



Faith is called faith for a reason.


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## waffle=ijm (Oct 16, 2009)

I find it funny that this discussion started because of some guy rapping about Jesus.


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## elcarc (Oct 16, 2009)

An attitude as if to say " Show me some proof, and I'll believe" when the proof is all around you.

Just because you cant see it, doesn't mean its not there. (of course, same goes with air)


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## miniGOINGS (Oct 16, 2009)

rickcube said:


> Lt-UnReaL said:
> 
> 
> > Fact: It's illogical to believe in something that has no proof/evidence.
> ...



Yes. Agreed.


----------



## PatrickJameson (Oct 16, 2009)

Escher said:


> PatrickJameson said:
> 
> 
> > Escher said:
> ...



Meh, I was more trying to say that what someone thinks is proof of something may not be to someone else, like what lofty and me were saying with the 'undisputed evidence' before.

EDIT:


elcarc said:


> An attitude as if to say " Show me some proof, and I'll believe" when the proof is all around you.
> 
> Just because you cant see it, doesn't mean its not there. (of course, same goes with air)



See, now you're just being ignorant. Read over some of lofty's posts and come back when you can discuss this like him. I'm not discussing this with you until you can provide some intellect to the discussion.


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## Ethan Rosen (Oct 16, 2009)

elcarc said:


> An attitude as if to say " Show me some proof, and I'll believe" when the proof is all around you.
> 
> Just because you cant see it, doesn't mean its not there. (of course, same goes with air)



Because something that happens to be transparent is obviously the same thing as an invisible magical spirit that has controlled the universe since he created it. Mhmm...


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## blade740 (Oct 16, 2009)

Ethan Rosen said:


> Because something that happens to be transparent is obviously the same thing as an invisible magical spirit that has controlled the universe since he created it. Mhmm...



God is also transparent.


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## miniGOINGS (Oct 16, 2009)

Ethan Rosen said:


> elcarc said:
> 
> 
> > An attitude as if to say " Show me some proof, and I'll believe" when the proof is all around you.
> ...



1. Who said we were talking about a "magical spirit"?
2. He has been in control, but he has not controlled the universe since he created it. He gave us free will, which gives us the option of sin.


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## Daniel Wu (Oct 16, 2009)

Ethan Rosen said:


> elcarc said:
> 
> 
> > An attitude as if to say " Show me some proof, and I'll believe" when the proof is all around you.
> ...



Air's obviously not a great example. A more solid case for a God would be St. Thomas Aquinas's Five Proofs


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## Escher (Oct 16, 2009)

rickcube said:


> Ethan Rosen said:
> 
> 
> > elcarc said:
> ...



Aquinas' 5 proof's can almost all be completely debunked. More on that later.


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## guitardude7241 (Oct 16, 2009)

St. Aquinas has one heck of a football team.


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## elcarc (Oct 16, 2009)

I find myself wondering how long this thread will last, until someone goes crazy and starts an argument...


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## Daniel Wu (Oct 16, 2009)

Well it's post 132 and seems fine so far.


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## Escher (Oct 16, 2009)

I've decided that if I beat the 2x2 WR in UK Open I'll become theistic.


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## miniGOINGS (Oct 16, 2009)

Escher said:


> I've decided that if I beat the 2x2 WR in UK Open I'll become theistic.



Is this a test of Gods abilities?


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## Escher (Oct 16, 2009)

miniGOINGS said:


> Escher said:
> 
> 
> > I've decided that if I beat the 2x2 WR in UK Open I'll become theistic.
> ...



A test of a deity's abilities to produce lucky scrambles


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## waffle=ijm (Oct 16, 2009)

miniGOINGS said:


> Escher said:
> 
> 
> > I've decided that if I beat the 2x2 WR in UK Open I'll become theistic.
> ...



Or just completely relying on statics, probability and chance....


----------



## Escher (Oct 16, 2009)

waffle=ijm said:


> miniGOINGS said:
> 
> 
> > Escher said:
> ...



Heeeyyy, and practice


----------



## miniGOINGS (Oct 16, 2009)

Escher said:


> miniGOINGS said:
> 
> 
> > Escher said:
> ...



Deuteronomy 6:16 "Do not test the LORD your God as you did at Massah." (NIV)


----------



## waffle=ijm (Oct 16, 2009)

oh and practice.



miniGOINGS said:


> Escher said:
> 
> 
> > miniGOINGS said:
> ...



Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster Page 78 Under the "Eight I'd Really Rather You Didn'ts" 
"I'd really rather you didn't act like a sanctimonious, holier-than-thou ass..."


----------



## Escher (Oct 16, 2009)

waffle=ijm said:


> oh and practice.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Dudes, I only ever said 'deity'. Don't jump to conclusions.


----------



## mazei (Oct 16, 2009)

Ton said:


> Why should that matter? Cubing is about cubing , not what you eat or believe. Why should a muslim cuber be any different? As you know I met many muslim cubers in Indonesian, I did not notice and difference between , no religion cubers, muslims or Christian cubers, this because it does not matter.





Stachuk1992 said:


> I assure you that people, at least in the States, would be very acceptive (word?), apart from the occasional prick, of course, and I'm nearly sure people from other places would agree about their cubers. Any cubers that have been a round for a decent time period seem to be nice, accepting people that would completely understand where you would come from.





Bryan said:


> Isn't it halal, not kosher? And the other stuff doesn't really matter that much. At the last MN Open, I probably should've ordered one more cheese pizza, but not really that big of a deal. And the alcohol? Many cubers aren't legal drinking age, and some of us (like myself) are, but don't drink anyway.



Just to give you guys a sort of example, during the fasting period, the community here had a gathering and as usual, we went to McDonalds(they should really sponsor us for how much we eat their food). Since I'm fasting, it affected the gathering in a way. But yeah, so far every cuber I met is really kind and usually is accepting and understanding about another's situation.


----------



## qqwref (Oct 16, 2009)

Zeroknight said:


> internally consistent, historically-accurate Bible


Not quite. But it may not be a good idea to get into this argument.



Lofty said:


> In the book it shows that the historical facts in the NT are very accurate, given the destruction of Jerusalem, the diversity in the Roman Empire, and how the roman officials liked to make up fancy titles for themselves, it would be hard to do if the documents were written at a time far removed from the events recorded and if the writers where not either eyewitnesses or spoke to eyewitnesses.


The numbers I've heard were that the NT books were written somewhere in the region of 50 to 150 AD. This is pretty close to the actual events so it makes sense that the Roman Empire personalities and large historical events were accurate (they did, after all, have history books in those days, and the Roman Empire didn't fall until ~450 AD). The thing is that after 20+ years events tend to get embellished and slightly exaggerated, especially if they are stories being told in order to help bring followers into the faith. (I'm sure you have seen this in cubing; you might do a solve that is 20 seconds, but the person who saw it will think it is 15 seconds, and then they might tell someone else it was 10 seconds, until eventually someone you know tells you that their friend's friend saw this guy do a cube one-handed in three seconds.) However accurate the NT is according to our knowledge of the big events of the time, it's extremely difficult to say whether any or all of the written events of Jesus's life took place. The fact that the four Gospels differ in the details and pacing doesn't help matters much.



Lofty said:


> Would I die for something I know that I made up just to play I nice trick on people down the road?


If you'd started something huge and you wanted it to keep going? Maybe. Sometimes the continuation of an organization (company, country, religion) can end up to be considered more valuable than individual lives. No country that didn't believe this would ever go to war  Besides, while I'm not saying that this necessarily applies to religion itself, it can happen that if you keep up a lie long enough, and act on it, you start to believe it is true.



Lofty said:


> I am of the opinion that if any person genuinely tried to seek the true God themselves then God would send someone to them. And by that I mean admitting that a god must exist due to creation (don't take that word too far it just basically means all the stuff that exists) and try to seek Him and know that as a man you can't match up to God.


This is a tricky argument. It definitely does make sense that God would send some kind of message to anyone who wished to worship Him but didn't know how. The problem, though, is that people from many different religions (and many different sects of the religions) have had experiences such as this. All major religions have converts and have people who have had religious visions, so how could there be anything about a particular person's conversion or religious vision (even if that person is you) that proves that particular religion is the correct one?



elcarc said:


> Did you realize that everyone in the bible with your kind of attitude died, or lived horribly. I'm just saying, its faith.


Don't quote me on this, but it seems to me that the only reason the Bible mentions people who don't have faith is to use them as allegories or examples of what can happen if you don't believe. Remember that at the time of the NT there were millions of Jews in the area around Jerusalem, and I seriously doubt that all of them were immediately killed or had horrible lives. I suppose this also brings up the point of Job, who was essentially punished with a (temporarily) horrible life because of his belief.


----------



## Rikane (Oct 16, 2009)

qqwref said:


> The fact that the four Gospels differ in the details and pacing doesn't help matters much.



Sorry to take that out of context, but I may have something that explains that a bit. Of course it's debatable, but I believe that it makes sense.

"One of the arguments I'd often heard against believing what the Gospels say is that they contradict one another. How can two Gospels both be accurate if tehy give different accounts of the same event?
A surprising discovery is that many historians consider minor variations to be evidence in favor of the truth of an account. The idea is that if the writers were lying, they'd make sure to get their stories staright - and they'd agree in every detail. *What seems to be a contradiction is often just the same event viewed from a different perspective*." 

Of course, I bolded that part myself. The text is taken from page 54 in "The Case for Chirst - Youth Edition" by Lee Strobel.


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## Dene (Oct 16, 2009)

elcarc said:


> An attitude as if to say " Show me some proof, and I'll believe" when the proof is all around you.
> 
> Just because you cant see it, doesn't mean its not there. (of course, same goes with air)



What a stupid argument. Give me one piece of proof, and not something moronic. I bet I can think of a realistic scientific explanation for whatever stupid thing your small brain can think up.

(And just for fun: Just because you can't think of a good example, doesn't mean it's not there).


----------



## krazedkat (Oct 16, 2009)

Ethan Rosen said:


> ThePizzaGuy92 said:
> 
> 
> > Ethan Rosen said:
> ...



Only part of the bible is theirs, the new testament it theirs. The old testament is Jewish... -.-


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## qqwref (Oct 16, 2009)

elcarc said:


> I remember from the bible, the multiplication of Fish and bread from 2 to 40(i think those were the numbers, someone with a bible near them please correct me).
> 
> Also from the bible, the lady who turned into a pillar of salt when disobeying God's orders not to turn around.


Nothing from the Bible can be used as proof that God exists, because if you do not assume that God exists from the start you will not accept anything in the Bible as factual.


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## elcarc (Oct 16, 2009)

qqwref said:


> elcarc said:
> 
> 
> > I remember from the bible, the multiplication of Fish and bread from 2 to 40(i think those were the numbers, someone with a bible near them please correct me).
> ...



Well then, I give up, because If he doesn't believe in God, then nothing i say will get through his head.

Ill pick this back up tomorrow, but by then there will be about 6 new pages.


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## blade740 (Oct 16, 2009)

elcarc said:


> Well then, I give up, because If he doesn't believe in God, then nothing i say will get through his head.



You're right. People who don't believe in god are always so stubborn.


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## Ethan Rosen (Oct 16, 2009)

krazedkat said:


> Ethan Rosen said:
> 
> 
> > ThePizzaGuy92 said:
> ...



The old testament isn't ONLY Jewish. Christians use it as well, and it's a heavy influence or the Quran, although in all honesty I don't know enough about Islam to say how modified their version of the OT is. That still doesn't change the fact that the new testament states that the holy trinity is all one God.


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## Ethan Rosen (Oct 16, 2009)

elcarc said:


> Dene said:
> 
> 
> > elcarc said:
> ...



Please prove to me that the entire content of Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows didn't actually happen. If you haven't actually read the book, here are just a few non-spoilers that I want you to prove aren't true.
-Hagrid is a real person, and is half giant
-Voldemort is a real person and uses his real magic wand to kill people
-The very real invisibility cloak allows whoever wears it invisibility.

Please prove to me that any of the above are false. I have all 7 Harry Potter books by my side waiting to refute you.


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## ConnorCuber (Oct 16, 2009)

Dene said:


> elcarc said:
> 
> 
> > An attitude as if to say " Show me some proof, and I'll believe" when the proof is all around you.
> ...



Get back to # every once in awhile.


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## elcarc (Oct 16, 2009)

Ethan Rosen said:


> elcarc said:
> 
> 
> > Dene said:
> ...



uggh, Deleting my post because of so many loopholes and rebuttals.


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## qqwref (Oct 16, 2009)

elcarc said:


> Well then, I give up, because If he doesn't believe in God, then nothing i say will get through his head.



It's not stubbornness; you're just using a circular argument. You can't prove something by first assuming it's true.


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## elcarc (Oct 16, 2009)

qqwref said:


> elcarc said:
> 
> 
> > Well then, I give up, because If he doesn't believe in God, then nothing i say will get through his head.
> ...



exaclty, so whats the point. thats why i give up

wait a second, i never said he was stubborn


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## TacticalPenguin (Oct 16, 2009)

But saying it'll never get through his head is implying stubbornness, when really it is just refusal to accept unproven circular logic. Just because there is no other solid explanation for ONE question doesn't mean we need to make up a man in the sky to explain EVERYTHING for us in ways that often don't even make sense.


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## ThePizzaGuy92 (Oct 16, 2009)

what about the Jews?


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## DavidWoner (Oct 16, 2009)

ThePizzaGuy92 said:


> Buddha is where it's at.



While I agree Buddhism is extremely awesome, it is technically not a religion.


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## Karthik (Oct 16, 2009)

I have more problems with religion than the concept of god itself.

From what we know, the concept of god and religion came in to being when people couldn't explain things that surrounded them. Things like day and night, lightning, seasons, etc. I also happened to watch a documentary which explained the theory that most major religions of the world are just adaptations of sun-worship. The movie explained the uncanny similarities between Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism and the way most of the prophets associated with these religions share very common characters. 

That said, I think that institution of religion should be as dynamic as human society itself. Why do we cringe on to orthodox religious views when we know that they existed because of man's limited understanding of nature? Religion must evolve for the good as man's understanding of nature expands. 

I hold an agnostic point of view and ironically I was born in a very orthodox Hindu family. I find many Hindu customs to be obsolete and outright ridiculous. I am sure this is also the case with any other religion. When I try and explain to people this fallacy, they are either offended or reply something like "It is a tradition and we are obliged to keep it up". And all this has absolutely nothing to do with god. Even the most objective of my friends drop their guard and resort to blind faith when it comes to religion. 

My point is, I don't know if god exists or not. Even if he does, I don't know what he wants. But I am pretty sure he doesn't want people to go visit temples/churches every Sunday. Or participate in elaborate religious rituals. Or fight one another in his name. I don't need religion to tell me that it is not a good thing to kill my neighbour. And certainly he doesn't ask for your money.

I hate the fact that religion has been responsible for the death of people in epidemic proportions. State cemeteries across the world are full of dead soldiers who were convinced that god was on their side. I hate the fact that religious institutions don't have to pay taxes. I hate the fact that politicians end their speeches with "God bless America" to invoke religious sentiments.

Even though religion has lot of good to it, and is responsible for many good things, I am of the opinion that cumulatively, it has had a negative effect on human society.


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## Karthik (Oct 16, 2009)

Zane_C said:


> When we analyze prayer with statistics, we find no evidence that God is "answering prayers."


Are you for real?!

Did you forget to include the <sarcasm> tags?


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## Bryan (Oct 16, 2009)

One of the huge problems with debating religion is that religious beliefs are based in faith, so the core beliefs are axioms. Just like the atheist has core axiomatic beliefs. These usually boil down to, "There is a God/There is no God". Because of the atheists core beliefs, they always demand that God be proven to them. And this is just as difficult as a Christian telling an atheist to prove that God doesn't exist. But because of the core belief, "Not exist" is the default in the atheist's mind, while "Does exist" is the default in the Christian's mind.

When you look at facts, there's different types of facts, observable and historical. Observable facts are facts that can be directly observed, like gravity. I could setup experiments and determine the same value you determine. And then you have historical facts, like who won the 2009 WC. There's nothing I can do today to determine for myself who won the WC. I can go to the WCA website and look at who they say won, and look at their interpretation of the recorded results and see why they come up with that answer. But, all I can do is interpret the times, which a recorded events that I can't really ever guarantee. Now, considering it was only just a few weeks ago, and it was recorded by people I trust, I can be pretty confident I know who won WC.

But when we have events that aren't directly observable, then we rely on interpretation of the facts. And these interpretations are always influenced by our core beliefs.

For example, in carbon dating, we don't know what the ratio of C12 to C14 is when things died. We need that value to calculate the age. Since we're talking about something in the past, it's historical. And since no one recorded it, we must interpret facts to get that value. If someone assumed that the Earth is billions of years old, then they would make the assumption that the Earth has achieved equilibrium of C12/C14, so they can just use the observable ratio of today, and assume it was valid years ago. But if you have someone who believes that there was some event that buried a lot of carbon-based elements, then the ratio would be different, so C14 dating doesn't work.


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## Karthik (Oct 16, 2009)

Bryan said:


> One of the huge problems with debating religion is that religious beliefs are based in faith, so the core beliefs are axioms. Just like the atheist has core axiomatic beliefs.


Very good point. But axioms in general are not chosen arbitrarily. They are chosen after considerable deliberations. 

In religious debates, people debate as to why they chose their "axiom" of choice. But unfortunately, unlike in mathematics, the debaters don't reach a consensus. But at least it is worth putting forth your ideas.


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## mazei (Oct 16, 2009)

Karthik said:


> In religious debates, people debate as to why they chose their "axiom" of choice.



Erm, just pointing out, I see some posts attacking the other party. Okay, not attacking, attack is too strong of a word. Erm....I can't find a word. I hope you get what I'm trying to say. Debate as to why they chose their axioms isn't the only debate that happens.


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## AvGalen (Oct 16, 2009)

158 posts so far and almost all of a very high quality!

(I will focus on Christianity as most people have done so far, but most of my points are valid for all major religions)

I am not a religious person but I have studied several religions. I have learned to distinguish between the core religion and how followers interpret that core. Most of the time I have no problem at all with the followers and I can often see that it has improved there life by giving them direction.

I have some problems with religions by themselves because they often don't seem to make much sense in these day and age. Religions are also often preaching tolerance but are themselves not tolerant towards other religions. Most followers have adopted religion to better fit into this day and age where religions are for more mixed when compared to previous times.

Some problems I have with religions that include a god-figure is that often that god-figure is all-powerful, but very humanlike at the same time. That also means that many human characteristics are imposed upon the god-figure and although often the god-figure acts like a human, it also acts in completely counterintuitive ways. God-like behavior isn't something I can understand.

The biggest problem ofcourse is when scriptures are turned into blind belief. When "It says so in the bible" is used to replace individual thought a lot of bad things can occur and have certainly occured in the past.

Just for reference I would like to add this link. Please don't start discussing each and every occurence on that list. I certainly don't have enough historical and biblical knowledge to do so. Also, don't misunderstand my point and conclude from that link that I am a devilworshipper

The point that was made before that God isn't here to help mankind, but that mankind is here to worship God is very interesting for me. Especially since that worshipping is apparently the way to a good afterlife. I personaly don't believe in an afterlife but I never thought that I would be considered doomed because I didn't worship. I try to lead a life where I enjoy as much as possible while not bothering others and where I share my joy with others. These simple guidelines could be called my personal religion and really work for me.

In general I must say that religion on a personal level has never been a problem anywhere. Nobody has ever treated me badly because I wasn't of their beliefs or vice-versa. I have enjoyed many conversations and learned a lot about human nature and other religions this way.

Religion on a group-basis is something I have seen gone wrong. Very often not even baded on religious differences but based on other conflicts between the groups. Religion just formed the groups but wasn't the reason for the conflict.

Tolerance and interest is really all that is needed for different religions to get along and I have never seen that gone wrong personally


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## nitrocan (Oct 16, 2009)

Just as a side note (I shouldn't be posting here, I should be studying instead but...), some of you might remember my posts in the earlier "Religion" thread. Well, I'm sorry for all of those as I'm an atheist now. I actually thank all of you for your arguments since those were what opened my mind.


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## Kian (Oct 16, 2009)

Zane_C said:


> I'm an athiest, I know hate is a harsh word, but I F***ING HATE religion!
> 
> After reading this, unless your retarded, you will be an athiest!
> read if you dare you BIBLE BASHER!!!
> ...



During your attempt at an intellectual argument against religion you found a way to make your post completely void of any intelligible reason. Enjoy getting banned.

Edit: Oh look he's banned now, I'm a prophet. (Terrible, terrible joke intended)


----------



## beingforitself (Oct 16, 2009)

elcarc said:


> qqwref said:
> 
> 
> > elcarc said:
> ...



It was abundantly clear from the outset that this thread was a discussion between believers and nonbelievers. Why did you even enter the thread to begin with, if there is "no point" in having a conversation with someone that doesn't believe in God?


----------



## nitrocan (Oct 16, 2009)

Kian said:


> Zane_C said:
> 
> 
> > I'm an athiest, I know hate is a harsh word, but I F***ING HATE religion!
> ...



Exactly. How do you(Zane_C) even come to the conclusion that all theists are christians?


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## ErikJ (Oct 16, 2009)

is there a downside to believing in God? I became a christian a little more than a year ago and I know that I have been living a much better life since then.


----------



## MichaelErskine (Oct 16, 2009)

Um, I arrived at this thread late - could someone summarise the amassed wisdom and tell me once and for all what to believe? 

kthxbye

PS: what lube is best?


----------



## nitrocan (Oct 16, 2009)

ErikJ said:


> is there a downside to believing in God? I became a christian a little more than a year ago and I know that I have been living a much better life since then.



What do you mean by better? Happier? Relieved?


----------



## James Ludlow (Oct 16, 2009)

In my sometimes controversial opinion - 

1 - Religion was there to instill some kind of fear and thus order,
2 - Mankind is to vain to believe that we are just a series of coincidences in a perpetually destructive universe.


----------



## Ton (Oct 16, 2009)

msemtd said:


> Um, I arrived at this thread late - could someone summarise the amassed wisdom and tell me once and for all what to believe?
> 
> kthxbye
> 
> PS: what lube is best?


Summary:

Believe you live for a reason and there is a guide for live

Lube:
I use Rubik's lube (in the white tube) when cube is new, after this silicone spray


----------



## Mike Hughey (Oct 16, 2009)

[thread hijack]



Ton said:


> I use Rubik's lube (in the white tube) when cube is new, after this silicone spray



Interesting - this is exactly what I've taken to doing lately. (Except I use CubeLube, which is supposedly the exact same stuff as the Rubik's lube, and then I use CRC as my silicone spray after that.) I did this with all of my V cubes, and now I did it to my new QJ 4x4x4, and they all seem to be doing great.

I figure the CubeLube applies a protective coating, which prevents the acetone in the CRC from melting the cubes as much. I don't know that that concept actually works, but it seems like a nice concept, anyway. 

[/thread hijack]


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## cardsNcubes (Oct 16, 2009)

First off, I am truly amazed how most everyone has kept there cool. Now, to jump in head first.

NOTE: I have a very interesting view on religion.
1) I think organized religion was made for fear. I think that the people who use their own beliefs are the most intelligent theists. 
2) I honestly have no idea who or what God is. I'm not worried about who/what he/she/it is...
3) To answer all these people who question where the bad things(hunger, death, war, disease...), I believe God simply created the universe and hit the metaphorical "START" button. The horror in the world is created by the Free Will God gave us.
4) If God were to prove him/her/itself, then there would be no use for belief.
5) George Carlin was, in fact, religious. He was anti-organized religion, much as I am. 

If you have any questions, feel free to ask me. I will not try and convert you or change your mind, only give you the info on what I believe So, I will be more than happy to answer any questions you might have...


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## Ethan Rosen (Oct 16, 2009)

cardsNcubes said:


> 5) George Carlin was, in fact, religious. He was anti-organized religion, much as I am.



Umm, no he wasn't.


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## Edmund (Oct 16, 2009)

ErikJ said:


> is there a downside to believing in God? I became a christian a little more than a year ago and I know that I have been living a much better life since then.



There is no downside in believing in God. There have been people who were hardened criminals but turned their lives around from learning about God.


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## cardsNcubes (Oct 16, 2009)

Ethan Rosen said:


> cardsNcubes said:
> 
> 
> > 5) George Carlin was, in fact, religious. He was anti-organized religion, much as I am.
> ...



Your right, sort of. It was mostly my fault as I used the term "religion". Carlin believed there was a higher power, but he didn't know nor care what it was. He stated this in his very last interview, i believe. If you listen to his special "Complaints and Grievances" his bit about the ten commandments is what he believed. I apologize for the confusion. 
PS: You can't always use wikipedia for accurate information.


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## qqwref (Oct 16, 2009)

Edmund said:


> There is no downside in believing in God.



Depends. If you just believe that God exists there is no downside to that (but also there is no downside to believing that the Easter Bunny exists unless you think that believing something false is a downside in itself, so saying "there is no downside" is not much of an argument for theism).

But on the other hand, if you believe that God exists AND expects you to act in a certain way to appease him, there is a downside: you have to follow all of the rules that have been set up. For instance, serious adherents of Judaism have to make sure to only eat Kosher meat, and Muslims have to practice Ramadan. I think that restricting the activities you can do and keeping up with praying, church visits, etc. can all count as downsides.


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## Mr.Toad (Oct 16, 2009)

qqwref:	
I agree with most of what you write in this forum. You are a rational person and it's nice to read you. +1 for you.

PS: Thanks for qqtimer.


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## ConnorCuber (Oct 16, 2009)

Kian said:


> Zane_C said:
> 
> 
> > I'm an athiest, I know hate is a harsh word, but I F***ING HATE religion!
> ...



Ah, this simple joke thread got somebody banned!

Good times.


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## Andreaillest (Oct 17, 2009)

qqwref said:


> This guy has some pretty sick flow.



No joke. It's actually pretty good.


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## (X) (Oct 17, 2009)

I didn't mock anyone, I simply thought Lofty=Logan, I'm sorry about that. anyway, you can't be thinking logically about important questions and still be religious.


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## cpt.Justice (Oct 17, 2009)

(X):
It seems you're basing your arguments on empiricism, but how do you really know that what you experience is trustworthy? If you don't, then your view of existence is also based on belief. Do you still think it is illogical?


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## RampageCuber (Oct 17, 2009)

cardsNcubes said:


> 4) If God were to prove him/her/itself, then there would be no use for belief.



"If god exists, I know god must be a man, because no woman could f*ck something up this much."

- George Carlin


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## miniGOINGS (Oct 17, 2009)

Karthik said:


> My point is, I don't know if god exists or not. Even if he does, I don't know what he wants. But I am pretty sure he doesn't want people to go visit temples/churches every Sunday. Or participate in elaborate religious rituals. Or fight one another in his name. I don't need religion to tell me that it is not a good thing to kill my neighbour. And certainly he doesn't ask for your money.



I would have to agree, God doesn't wants us to do all of those things.



Zane_C said:


> I'm an athiest, I know hate is a harsh word, but *I* F***ING *HATE religion!*



Me too.



cardsNcubes said:


> 3) To answer all these people who question where the bad things(hunger, death, war, disease...), I believe God simply created the universe and hit the metaphorical "START" button. The horror in the world is created by the Free Will God gave us.
> 4) If God were to prove him/her/itself, then there would be no use for belief.



Well done. Because God gave us free will, bad things are able to happen.



qqwref said:


> But on the other hand, if you believe that God exists AND expects you to act in a certain way to appease him, there is a downside: you have to follow all of the rules that have been set up. For instance, serious adherents of Judaism have to make sure to only eat Kosher meat, and Muslims have to practice Ramadan. I think that restricting the activities you can do and keeping up with praying, church visits, etc. can all count as downsides.



God doesn't expect you to act a certain way to appease him. He knows that no matter how hard you try, you can't.


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## nitrocan (Oct 17, 2009)

qqwref said:


> Edmund said:
> 
> 
> > There is no downside in believing in God.
> ...


Muslims actually "have" to do this thing called Namaz 5 times a day which is sort of like praying. But here, you say a bunch of prayers that are already in the Quran before you can actually pray for yourself. Then of course there are these animal sacrifices and Ramadan fastings. I believe that fear of death, the popularity of religion, epic and literary qualities in the books and the idea that believing in a god simply explains all the questions we can't answer are the primary reasons for people to believe in a god.


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## Ton (Oct 17, 2009)

qqwref said:


> Edmund said:
> 
> 
> > There is no downside in believing in God.
> ...



I think you wanted to write, you *want to*, instead of* have*

When you do these things because you* have to*, it has no meaning (my opinion). I know I *want to* follow God rules. I know many Muslims *wants to* do Ramadan. If it is for you *have to*, it becomes religion/just follow rules without thinking.


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## qqwref (Oct 17, 2009)

nitrocan said:


> I believe that ... epic and literary qualities in the books ... are the primary reasons for people to believe in a god.


I agree that the books have some interesting literary qualities, but you don't have to believe in them to be able to appreciate that. I think Norse mythology is pretty awesome but that doesn't mean I think Odin and Loki and so on are actually real.



Ton said:


> When you do these things because you* have to*, it has no meaning (my opinion). I know I *want to* follow God rules. I know many Muslims *wants to* do Ramadan. If it is for you *have to*, it becomes religion/just follow rules without thinking.


You might want to follow the rules, but it does still restrict your life a bit, don't you think? Playing a video game all the time might be really fun too, but there is always a downside of not being able to get anything else done while you are playing.


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## (X) (Oct 17, 2009)

The bible is god's words. If you don't follow the bible you are not following god's word, and therefore you are not a christian. 

Snakes can't talk.

EDIT: And BTW, I own a Rubik's triamid, you don't


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## nitrocan (Oct 17, 2009)

qqwref said:


> nitrocan said:
> 
> 
> > I believe that ... epic and literary qualities in the books ... are the primary reasons for people to believe in a god.
> ...



Speaking of restrictions, my previous school bus driver used to stop whenever he saw a piece of bread on the ground, pick it up and then I don't know what he does with it later. Apparently it's a sin.
Or whenever ezan(calling to the mosque for praying) is being recited, everybody stops the music or anything that makes noise until it's done.
Lastly, to be able to perform all 5 Namaz prayers, you have to memorize a ridiculous amount of Arabic prayers (word by word and exactly as how it is) even if you aren't an Arab. Most of the people don't even know what they mean. It's interesing what people do just for the sake of "I don't know how many" virgins and doing whatever you want in heaven. (irony goes or went to me)


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## Connor (Oct 17, 2009)

AndreaBananas said:


> qqwref said:
> 
> 
> > This guy has some pretty sick flow.
> ...



I'm the hiphopopotumus.
My lyrics are bottomless.


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## Escher (Oct 17, 2009)

Connor said:


> AndreaBananas said:
> 
> 
> > qqwref said:
> ...


...

Sometimes my rhymes are polite,
Like, "Thank you Mrs. Johnson for dinner, that was delicious, goodnight"
Other times they're obscene,
Like a pornographic R18 dream,
About *****es smothered in margarine,
Ha Ha Ha...


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## Forte (Oct 17, 2009)

Escher said:


> Connor said:
> 
> 
> > AndreaBananas said:
> ...



... (different episode)

Some people say that rappers are invincible . . .

We're VINCIBLE!


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## mazei (Oct 18, 2009)

nitrocan said:


> Speaking of restrictions, my previous school bus driver used to stop whenever he saw a piece of bread on the ground, pick it up and then I don't know what he does with it later. Apparently it's a sin.
> Or whenever ezan(calling to the mosque for praying) is being recited, everybody stops the music or anything that makes noise until it's done.
> Lastly, to be able to perform all 5 Namaz prayers, you have to memorize a ridiculous amount of Arabic prayers (word by word and exactly as how it is) even if you aren't an Arab. Most of the people don't even know what they mean. It's interesing what people do just for the sake of "I don't know how many" virgins and doing whatever you want in heaven. (irony goes or went to me)



Dude, please, stop acting like you actually know the religion. Just because you see it, doesn't mean you actually know what we do. So please, stop bombarding the religion.


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## HowSuneIsNow (Oct 18, 2009)

This has gone on long enough.
Can this thread die for our sins?


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## Steyler (Oct 18, 2009)

Jesus ROCKS!!!!


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## rachmaninovian (Oct 18, 2009)

mazei said:


> nitrocan said:
> 
> 
> > Speaking of restrictions, my previous school bus driver used to stop whenever he saw a piece of bread on the ground, pick it up and then I don't know what he does with it later. Apparently it's a sin.
> ...


I believe he was a muslim living in turkey, so I guess he knows what he is talking about. I had conversations with him over MSN after the first religion thread and I believe he was a devout muslim then. :3


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## ErikJ (Oct 18, 2009)

Steyler said:


> Jesus ROCKS!!!!



second.


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## ardi4nto (Oct 18, 2009)

I got tired when there is a discussion about religion. Always long, and the content is just people defending their opinion, and when someone refuses it, they come again just to defend their opinion, again and over again.

I recommend to close this thread


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## curious (Oct 18, 2009)

ardi4nto said:


> I recommend to close this thread



Yes, this thread should be closed, it has nothing to do with speed cubing at all...
by the way, in a debate between fact vs faith.
fact always beats faith!
religion is all wrong!


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## PatrickJameson (Oct 18, 2009)

curious said:


> Yes, this thread should be closed, it has nothing to do with speed cubing at all...



Well, this is the 'Off-Topic Discussion' section of the forum.


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## curious (Oct 18, 2009)

Oh right, it is to,
resume the debate!
not just any debate 'the great debate'!


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## krazedkat (Oct 18, 2009)

Ethan Rosen said:


> krazedkat said:
> 
> 
> > Ethan Rosen said:
> ...



a) QUOTE PYRAMID!
b) What I'm saying is that it was written by the NON-gentials... Or, in other words, the Jews.


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## Ton (Oct 18, 2009)

qqwref said:


> You might want to follow the rules, but it does still restrict your life a bit, don't you think? Playing a video game all the time might be really fun too, but there is always a downside of not being able to get anything else done while you are playing.



No it does not restrict my life, I know I have the freedom. But think about what your father would say, if you wanted to play video games all day, he would say it affects your life and he might think a way to stimulate you to do other things. 

You have the freedom in your live to choice, but you should check how this affects your live and better ask the Father before you make big decisions. This is how I like to follow what is good for me


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## nitrocan (Oct 18, 2009)

mazei said:


> nitrocan said:
> 
> 
> > Speaking of restrictions, my previous school bus driver used to stop whenever he saw a piece of bread on the ground, pick it up and then I don't know what he does with it later. Apparently it's a sin.
> ...


I'm just referring to how it affects the general society in my country. Of course there's a difference between an imitative worshipper who believes only because people around him believe and one who has reasons for his beliefs. My country is 99% Muslim by the way.



rachmaninovian said:


> mazei said:
> 
> 
> > nitrocan said:
> ...



I know, what was I thinking!?


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## CL_Pepsi (Oct 18, 2009)

I want to put my input in this thread because everyone talking about religion and such.
Penn, some awesome magicain guy, says If your god came up to you and said "kill your child if you believe in me." Would you? In Penn's mind he thinks you're an atheist is you listen to your god and kill your child.
Also my brother who is agnostic and very intellectual guy told me religion is the most powerful form of political power in the history of man. For example before the 1500's or something like that science was not able to evolve because of the Catholic Church would kill anyone would practice science. Here are a couple things the Catholic Church stated in that time.
1. They said the earth was flat.
2. Any woman who practiced science was a witch and must be killed.
3. The Earth was the center of the solar system. 
There are more but i forgot them, basically anything the Catholic Church said you most follow or be killed. So if everyone who practiced science died science couldn't evolve. But eventually certain famous people made the Church lose power such as:
Magellan: He proved by sailing around the Earth, the Earth was indeed round.
Galileo : He proved the Earth was not the center of the solar system and proved the sun was.
Johannes Gutenburg: He made the printing press, so books can be massed produced. So if books were able to be massed produced people would read them and learn. but eventually the Church started banning books when it taught "witchcraft"/science. When a book was banned by the Church it only brought more attention to it and people wondered why it was banned, so people read the book. Then people stated learning, yadayadayada. But there are plenty of more reasons the Church lost power. Eventually the Church lost all of it's power over Western civilization and science could finally evolve.

Also I don't know if this makes any sense what I wrote. Tell me if it's waste of time or not. 
I believe in God but not as much as some people. But I definitely believe in his morals. Which makes me a Non-Literal Catholic. Btw I'm 14


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## nitrocan (Oct 18, 2009)

@CL_Pepsi: I think we all know that, but why would you believe in something just for the morals? A person's moral values shouldn't rely on a book. Why don't you believe in Little Red Riding Hood then?


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## MW1990 (Oct 18, 2009)

Well... I believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster, I am a Pastafarian. http://www.venganza.org/

Here is a depiction of a very famous painting, with an epic petaminx censor job by me  (can't see it very well, but it is)



Have you been touched by His noodly appendage today? XD

Thank you bye.


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## HowSuneIsNow (Oct 18, 2009)

seriously let's nail this thread to a cross to show Rome means business.


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## Ethan Rosen (Oct 18, 2009)

Epic Sequel

@HowSuneIsNow: Stop.


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## Lord Voldemort (Oct 18, 2009)

Ethan Rosen said:


> *-Voldemort is a real person and uses his real magic wand to kill people*
> 
> Please prove to me that any of the above are false. I have all 7 Harry Potter books by my side waiting to refute you.



There's no need, I'm right here for you


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