# 7x7x7 Knockoff Rubikfans



## grama (May 29, 2009)

*.......................*

......................


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## Dene (May 29, 2009)

Not cool dude.


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## d4m4s74 (May 29, 2009)

if I were me (wait, I am).
I'll wait till verdes loses it's patent, then it will be like C4U DIYs


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## TomZ (May 29, 2009)

You did hurt Verdes by buying a copy. Denying that is ignorant.


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## Dene (May 29, 2009)

I agree with TomZ. You are clearly ignorant of the amount of time and effort that Verdes put into designing the cubes. He didn't just dream it up over night, it took years of working through, and probably cost thousands and thousands. Then you just shun off his work, and do what is convenient for you instead of doing the right thing. If anyone wants to get into an ethical debate then it's on, but look out because you will get slammed so bad.


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## endless_akatsuki (May 29, 2009)

What is the _right_ thing to do? Why is it bad that people want to get copies of something? Because someone else "owns" the idea?


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## soccerking813 (May 29, 2009)

It is bad because those people have made fake copies and are making money off of something that they didn't invent, and stealing money from those people who worked to earn it.

But you are supporting the people who are making easy money, which will eventually make the original v-cubes worthless, just the same thing that happened to the rubik's cubes, but that was acceptable.


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## Tortin (May 29, 2009)

soccerking813 said:


> just the same thing that happened to the rubik's cubes, but that was acceptable.



Why was that acceptable? Isn't that a double standard?


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## AlanAlanine (May 29, 2009)

soccerking813 said:


> It is bad because those people have made fake copies and are making money off of something that they didn't invent, and stealing money from those people who worked to earn it.
> 
> But you are supporting the people who are making easy money, which will eventually make the original v-cubes worthless, just the same thing that happened to the rubik's cubes, *but that was acceptable*.



why was it acceptable in the rubik's cube case?


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## Dene (May 29, 2009)

endless_akatsuki said:


> What is the _right_ thing to do? Why is it bad that people want to get copies of something? Because someone else "owns" the idea?



The right thing to do is to pay dues to the person that spent a great part of his life trying to get these made, so that _you_ and _me_ and everyone else can benefit from it.



grama said:


> you clearly didn't take the time to think a little more about his. There is absolutely no difference for Verdes Innovations, if i buy 1 v-cube 7 or, 1 v-cube seven + a knockoff, he is making the same amount of money.
> An analogy to explain, if a movie comes out, you go to the cinema and watch it, then buy the dvd, and still download a pirate version, the company that made the movie doesn't lose any money for you downloading it, since you already gave them the profit the could get from you. I didn't want to discuss it, but calling me ignorant about verdes efforts makes absolutely no sense in this thread for what i've already said. This discussion already took place, and this thread clearly won't go the way i intended, so feel free to close ir, or delete it, i will not post further responses.



This analogy does not hold at all. Why would you ever buy the same DVD twice? That doesn't show that you have been a good person, it shows you're an idiot for buying the same DVD twice.
And of course he is making the same amount of money if you either buy 1 V7 and a knock-off, or just 1 V7. But he is losing money when the options are 2 V7s, or 1 V7 and a knock-off.


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## d4m4s74 (May 29, 2009)

with rubik's it is acceptable for multiple reasons:
1: Rubik's already lost the patent and made enough money off it already in the years it had the monopoly (I mean, enough to cover the expenses of inventing the puzzle and a nice profit)
AND (unlike Verdes) still sells to "normal" people (normal as in not "power users")
2: Most (if not all) companies selling "fake rubik's" cubes have changed (and maybe improved) the design

I'll focus one 1b
Verdes has a smaller demographic (speedsolvers) and isn't sold in stores, so people choosing alternatives really hurt the company


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## d4m4s74 (May 29, 2009)

grama said:


> Ok, i know i said i wasn't going to post anything further, but i just have to... here is precisely my point.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


it was a reply to alan and tortin


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## Dene (May 29, 2009)

grama said:


> The thing is i would never buy 2 v-7, why would i want 2?, i bought the V-7 because i wanted a 7³ cube, and the knockoff just out of curiosity, if i ever wanted a second V-7 (so i would have the black and white pair for example) i would do so, and not the knockoff.
> *You are making the typical anti-piracy fallacy *(not that i support piracy, just logical thinking), thinking that when a customer buys a copy of a product it's translated into money loss to the original company because it prevents from buying the original product. but that argument doesn't take into account that a more o less important number of the copy-buyers, wouldn't buy the original in the first place.



Hang on, what? I've never heard of this made up fallacy. What you say doesn't make sense. You brought it because you were curious? That's just a lame excuse for "I wanted two 7x7s but I'm cheap".
As already stated in this thread, by buying knock-offs you are supporting a negative trend. By doing so you are indirectly taking money away from V-cubes. (Not that I actually believe your silly excuse).


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## MichaelErskine (May 29, 2009)

Meh, consider the ripoffs payback for making my 6x6x6 so sucky that it explodes every other turn


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## ISuckAtCubing (May 29, 2009)

why dont you guys stop buying 3x3x3 diys? enro rubik made it first, you you guys should not buy diys


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## jcuber (May 29, 2009)

Rubik's has a lot of money from his old monopoly of the market, and we do buy his DIY cubes. Mr. Verdes has patents and need all the money he can get if we want v-cubes 2, 3, 4, 6b, 8, 9, 10, and 11.

He has a much smaller market and a small buissness owner rather than a large corporation.


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## fanwuq (May 29, 2009)

Dene said:


> But he is losing money when the options are 2 V7s, or 1 V7 and a knock-off.



I would have to side with grama on this one. Buying the knock-off does not hurt Verdes directly. It simply generates more revenue for the knock-off maker. Assuming the ATC is less than MR, then he is making a profit and staying in business and being a competitor to Verdes. However, you really don't need to attack grama. He's done more to help Verdes than hurt him. At least he bought a V-cube, so he is helping Verdes a lot more than I am (I haven't bought a single V-cube yet). I believe his excuse of buying a knock-off out of curiosity; he definitely would not have bought 2 V-7. Buying 1 V-7 and 1 knock-off is better than buying nothing at all. Dene, it's silly to say that he is taking money away from Verdes. He is just supporting Verdes and the illegal competitor. Net profits for Verdes increase, but market share of Verdes is unchanged.

Edit: I'm not saying that I support buying knock-off V-cubes, just that your economics is flawed.
Emotionally, you might not agree with grama's choice. Other than that producing knock-offs is (*illegal* ?) in a country that doesn't care, it's tough to have a logic response that counters grama's argument.

I actually think an on-topic discussion of this thread would be worse than the action of buying the knock-off itself. A favorable review of the knock-off cube would definitely reduce the demand for authentic V-cubes.


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## Ton (May 29, 2009)

grama said:


> okey, first of all, i don't want another discussion started about the ethics implicated in this cube existence, and/or copyrights/patents.
> 
> I want to discuss quality here, i bought one of these cubes (i also bought a complete V-cube set, so don't bash me about it). I want to know what other people think about this cube if they have one or at least tried one.
> 
> I don't speed with this cube, but i've solved it about 6 times, my first impressions were pretty good, feels really solid, the stickers are definitely better than v-cube original stickers (not that stickers are an important issue really). It's pretty smooth, a little tighter than my V-7, but i like that, in my V-7 the center pieces kind of "wobble" but in the R-7 (rubikfans-7 lol) every piece is just in place, you need to keep it better aligned in order to turn, but it's also harder to pop in my little experience with big cubes.



First my sympathy goes to Mr Verdes who invest a lot and help many cubers to give us a great puzzle. In the early days Mr Rubik had the same problem, but than a big company Ideal got the license and defend succesfully the brand name. Today this is still needed even for the Rubik brand. We live in this world where this is needed, I guess Mr Verdes Legal actions will take all there energy and attention and it is very difficult to fight a Chinese company as a foreigner. 

We can help with not promoting this 7x7. btw I use Rubik DIY


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## ConnorCuber (May 29, 2009)

blade740 said:


> I agree with OP as well. He bought a V-7. He wouldn't have bought another V7. There's no point. Sure, this did benefit an illegal copier. But I think in this case it's clear that Verdes hasn't lost a single sale due to Grama's purchase.



I still think, that funding a company that is using another persons invention, is wrong. Because if people keep buying KO 7x7s then the company will continue to produce them. Which will harm Verdes.


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## Dene (May 29, 2009)

grama said:


> YES i bought it out of curiosity, to try it out, test quality, etc. why would i even want 2 of them????.
> Now, the point you make afterwards, that's a logical point (arguable but at least it makes sense unlike before).
> Now, for the remarks about being cheap and making up an excuse, i find that unnecessarily aggressive, offensive, and completely out of line when it comes to have a mature, logical discussion/debate about any kind of issue, no need for personal attacks ok? i haven't disrespected you in any way.



I can think of many reasons why you would want two of them. I always wanted to have two of them, which I do now.
And I'll be aggressive if I have to defend Verdes. People are stealing his ideas and you only support that and show that you have no care for market integrity, and show that you have no respect for what he has done, by purchasing that product.

fanwuq: as I say I do not believe his excuse that he was "just curious". It still makes no sense to me. "I'm going to go and stand on that mock bridge because I'm just curious to see how well it will hold up." And then you plummet to your death.


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## daeyoungyoon (May 29, 2009)

Honestly.....he bought one knockoff out of curiosity. No big deal. He isn't going around telling people to buy them is he?? People buy those mefferts clone but I haven't really seen people saying anything about those.


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## anderson26 (May 29, 2009)

Now I don't know if someone else has brought up this fact or not but if mass speedsolvers started buying knockoffs instead of real v-cubes, Mr. Verdes could stop producing and cubers could lose out on potentially the best 4x4s 2x2s and even 3x3s. Not to mention any cube bigger than a 7x7


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## Lord Voldemort (May 29, 2009)

You're looking in the wrong places then.


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## fanwuq (May 29, 2009)

Dene said:


> fanwuq: as I say I do not believe his excuse that he was "just curious". It still makes no sense to me. "I'm going to go and stand on that mock bridge because I'm just curious to see how well it will hold up." And then you plummet to your death.



Oh. I think I see what you are saying. I don't get the analogy, but I see that you are wondering about his motive for thinking about buying a knock-off cube. Just a random curiosity about how it feels or wondering if the knock-off is better. The first does seem unlikely and the 2nd would hurt Verdes if he claims the knock-off is of equal or greater quality to a real V-cube (per dollar). Interesting way of thinking!

Well, he deleted the original post.


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## ConnorCuber (May 30, 2009)

daeyoungyoon said:


> Honestly.....he bought one knockoff out of curiosity. No big deal. He isn't going around telling people to buy them is he?? People buy those mefferts clone but I haven't really seen people saying anything about those.



The Meffert's Clones and regular Meffert's come from the exact same factory


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## Dene (May 30, 2009)

I vote that the whole thread gets deleted.
The analogy is something like: there's the real thing, then there's the fake. The fake can be very costly.


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## Unknown.soul (May 30, 2009)

ConnorCuber said:


> daeyoungyoon said:
> 
> 
> > Honestly.....he bought one knockoff out of curiosity. No big deal. He isn't going around telling people to buy them is he?? People buy those mefferts clone but I haven't really seen people saying anything about those.
> ...



I don't think they do. QJ also produces a Skewb and its core differs from the Meffert's.

QJ




Meffert's


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## Tortin (May 30, 2009)

daeyoungyoon said:


> Honestly.....he bought one knockoff out of curiosity. No big deal. He isn't going around telling people to buy them is he?? People buy those mefferts clone but I haven't really seen people saying anything about those.



Isn't Mefferts a clone of old Rubik's?


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## Unknown.soul (May 30, 2009)

Tortin said:


> Isn't Mefferts a clone of old Rubik's?


Meffert's produced the Rubik's Wahn 4x4 and 5x5 in 1983.


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## jcuber (May 30, 2009)

n00b question, but what is "Wahn"?


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## Unknown.soul (May 30, 2009)

I didn't want to do this...
LMGTFY


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## panyan (May 30, 2009)

msemtd said:


> Meh, consider the ripoffs payback for making my 6x6x6 so sucky that it explodes every other turn



interesting view


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