# Solve only with Z-perms



## Stefan (Apr 24, 2011)

You might've done T-perm solving before (I know some people have), but have you done Z-perm solving? *Only single Z-perms and cube rotations between them are allowed.* No setup moves. You can use any Z-perm alg you like (RU-gen, MU-gen, whatever), but it must affect purely the edges. So for example this is forbidden:

Also no shortcuts like H-perm instead of two Z-perms, or several Z-perms at once like this:
.
Also no move cancellations or any other cheats Thom is still going to find . *Only single full pure Z-perms and cube rotations between them.*

Scrambles: (or use Prisma Puzzle Timer and its edges-only scrambles)


Spoiler



*Note they keep the corners intact. If after scrambling, your corners aren't solved, you messed up the scramble.*

1) F U B' U2 B R2 L U2 D2 F R2 U' L2 F2 U2 R2 U' F2 U' B2 U R2
2) F2 B' U F L B2 D F D' R U2 B' U2 B' R2 L2 F L2 B2 U2 B
3) F U D2 B' R F R B U B U2 F2 R' L2 U2 R' D2 F2 U2 R' D2 F2
4) F L U2 D2 B R L' U' F' R' U' R2 B2 D2 R2 U' B2 R2 B2 U B2 U'
5) D R' U D F2 L' B' R F' D' R D2 B2 L' U2 L U2 R2 U2 L D2 R
6) R' U F' U D' R F' U D' F R2 D R2 L2 U' B2 U B2 R2 B2 D L2
7) R2 U' L' F U D' R' F B' L D' L2 F2 R2 U2 F2 U B2 L2 F2 D
8) R L2 U R F B' U' R L' U' D2 L' U2 B2 U2 R' B2 U2 R F2 B2
9) F' R D R L U D' R L2 U' F B2 D' L2 U F2 D' B2 R2 F2 D' R2
10) F2 D R2 B L' U R U F U' F' R2 L2 D2 B R2 L2 F2 D2 F' L2 B
11) U' R' B U2 D' L2 F R B' L F2 U2 F2 D' R2 L2 U' B2 U2 R2 F2
12) R' L' U2 R' B' D F' B L' U F2 U2 B2 R' B2 L' U2 D2 L' D2 F2 U2
13) U2 B' R' D' B' U L U L2 F' L2 U' B2 D' R2 F2 D2 B2 U' D' F2
14) F L' U R2 D2 F' B R D F' U2 F2 L2 D' F2 U F2 L2 U R2 U' R2
15) R2 B U F2 B2 U2 R' L B D F2 D2 F2 B2 R2 D2 F2 L U2 D2 L' F2
16) U2 F' R' B U F' B' R' B' D' L2 F2 L2 B U2 R2 B D2 R2 U2 L2 F'
17) D F D R' L U' D R' F' D R F2 B2 R B2 R' L' D2 L' U2 D2 R'
18) R F2 D2 L B' R' L F2 B2 D L U2 L2 B2 L2 D2 B2 D2 F2 L U2 D2
19) F R2 U2 L2 F' R F' B U B2 U2 R2 F2 L F2 B2 R2 U2 B2 D2 L B2
20) B' L2 U R2 L2 U F B D L2 U2 L' F2 B2 L F2 U2 R' U2 D2 L' F2
21) R2 F2 U L F B' D' R L' D R' D2 B2 D2 R U2 F2 R2 B2 L2 B2 U2
22) F2 L2 B' D2 R' U' D F R2 U R F2 D2 B2 U2 D2 R' D2 B2 R' L
23) L' F L F' D R B2 L U2 B2 R2 F2 B2 R2 D' R2 U L2 B2 D' R2 D2
24) R2 F U' R L2 U2 B' D' F U' F2 R' U2 F2 D2 R' F2 B2 L U2 D2 R2
25) R2 U2 L' U' D2 R' F' B D B R D2 F2 R' F2 R' D2 R' U2 F2 R' D2
26) U L' U' L' D' F L D F R2 U2 R F2 R D2 F2 R' U2 B2 R U2 L
27) R D F L' D2 R U2 D R' F' U F2 U2 R2 F2 B2 D2 L2 U' F2 L2 F2
28) F L' U2 L' F R2 D L' F2 U' F2 B2 R2 D2 L F2 D2 F2 D2 L' B2 L
29) R2 F L' D' F' B R2 L' F D F2 R2 U2 F2 B2 R U2 B2 D2 R' U2
30) R F D2 B U B' U R B R2 B2 R' F2 B2 R2 B2 R' U2 B2 L' D2 R
31) U' R F' D' F2 U F L U R2 U' R2 D2 L2 U F2 L2 B2 U B2 R2 D'
32) R F' D2 L2 U2 B U' R' L F' D2 R' D2 R D2 F2 R' U2 R' D2 L' D2
33) B R2 D L' U R B U2 D' B L F2 D2 R U2 R2 F2 B2 D2 L2 B2
34) F' R' D' B' D' L2 F U R2 B U2 R D2 L F2 R2 U2 B2 R2 B2 U2 B2
35) U L F2 B2 L' B L F' B D F2 R' U2 R' F2 U2 F2 L' F2 B2 U2 R'
36) B D L D2 B R' L2 B' U L' B2 R' U2 D2 L U2 B2 R' F2 R' F2
37) R U F' B2 U2 D' L2 D' B' D B2 U2 F2 B2 R' F2 R2 B2 D2 B2 D2 L2
38) R' D' B2 R' D F' L' D2 F' D B2 R' D2 F2 R F2 R' D2 L2 D2 R' F2
39) F U2 D R' U' B' L' F' U' B' D2 F2 L F2 R B2 R U2 B2 L' B2 L'
40) R2 F B R2 L U R L' F' U D2 R2 F' R2 L2 F' R2 F B U2 L2 D2
41) D2 R2 B' R' F B' R2 L2 U L2 D2 B2 L2 B2 L2 B U2 D2 R2
42) B D2 L2 U' F' R L' D R D2 F U2 F L2 B U2 B D2 L2 B' U2 R2
43) R F' B U' F' R' F B' U L F2 L2 D' R2 L2 D' B2 R2 F2 U2 F2
44) L' F2 B' L U' D B' D' L' F2 L2 D2 R2 F2 U2 F R2 L2 U2 R2 U2 B
45) F U2 R' D F2 U' L' U2 B R2 U B2 D' L2 B2 L2 F2 U' B2 L2 U L2
46) L F2 B U D' R B L F' B U L2 U B2 L2 F2 D R2 B2 D2 R2
47) F' R' B' R L' F2 U F D L U2 B2 R U2 F2 L' U2 F2 D2 L' F2 D2
48) R' B2 D2 L U' R L' U2 D2 F R' U2 R U2 L2 F2 D2 R' U2 D2 R' D2
49) U' L' D' B' U' F' R U' D2 B R' B2 L2 F2 L' U2 L' F2 B2 L F2 L'
50) B L2 B L D' F R U' B2 R D2 B2 L' D2 L' B2 R' L2 F2 R' U2


I tried it 2-3 times before, now with the first five above scrambles I got a 1:18 single and a 2:10 average:


Spoiler



Average: 2:10.54
Standard Deviation: 23.34
Best Time: 1:18.52
Worst Time: 3:15.16
Individual Times:
1.	(3:15.16)	F U B' U2 B R2 L U2 D2 F R2 U' L2 F2 U2 R2 U' F2 U' B2 U R2
2.	2:52.11	F2 B' U F L B2 D F D' R U2 B' U2 B' R2 L2 F L2 B2 U2 B
3.	(1:18.52)	F U D2 B' R F R B U B U2 F2 R' L2 U2 R' D2 F2 U2 R' D2 F2
4.	1:57.84	F L U2 D2 B R L' U' F' R' U' R2 B2 D2 R2 U' B2 R2 B2 U B2 U'
5.	1:41.66	D R' U D F2 L' B' R F' D' R D2 B2 L' U2 L U2 R2 U2 L D2 R


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## Robert-Y (Apr 24, 2011)

4:39.48 first try, after finding algs for F2L.

I've found some algs which cycle 3 edges but I still haven't found a nice alg which cycles 3 edges on the same layer without affecting F2L.

Also I've found a adjacent flip alg which involves 6 Z perms.

Just to make things clear, should we call the Z perm which swaps UF and UL, left Z perm, and the other one which swaps UF and UR, right Z perm?



Spoiler



(Left Z perm x' z)*6


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## riffz (Apr 24, 2011)

This is painful. Got halfway there but screwed up execution. :fp


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## buelercuber (Apr 24, 2011)

Wow i've been trying this and it's really challenging. 
Although surprisingly easier then doing (u, M) scrambles, I found an easy insertion like in beginners f2l. 
the only problems i've encountered, is the last layer, I came up with two adjacent edges being orientated. hmmm

EDIT: fixed with some trial and error with edge inserting and swapping.
still have to record it to see what i did...


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## Robert-Y (Apr 24, 2011)

U perm:



Spoiler



x' LZ x LZ x' LZ x LZ RZ x' LZ x RZ x' LZ



Lol

Stefan: Please tell me if you've found something shorter 

EDIT: New pb: 3:27.09


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## Stefan (Apr 24, 2011)

Robert-Y said:


> Stefan: Please tell me if you've found something shorter


 
I haven't, but I'm not doing LBL anyway so I usually don't get into that situation.


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## Robert-Y (Apr 24, 2011)

1:49.18 different approach...

I'm trying to build F2L however I can, then LL


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## Zubon (Apr 24, 2011)

I just tried it now for the first time. It is challenging. I made a 2x2x3 block, for the remaining two faces I separated the cubies so they were on the correct face while orienting them. The hard part is PLL...


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## Stefan (Apr 24, 2011)

2:54.38 first attempt with reduction-method (get edges correctly oriented into their correct inner slices, then solve with "H-perms" (executed as Z-perm pairs of course)).


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## Kirjava (Apr 24, 2011)

Is M2UM2U'D'M2DM2 a valid sequence of moves?


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## Stefan (Apr 24, 2011)

And I thought the rules were watertight 
Give me a moment, I'll close that loophole.


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## Kirjava (Apr 24, 2011)

That is actually two seperate Z perms.

M2UM2U' E2ME2M M'E2M'E2 D'M2DM2

I'm not allowed to cancel moves?


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## Stefan (Apr 24, 2011)

Argh... you're killing me!!!

Edit: fixed.


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## uberCuber (Apr 24, 2011)

This is frustratingly difficult for someone who has no experience doing restricted solves (other than simple R,U or M,U)


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## Cool Frog (Apr 24, 2011)

Chris tried to get me to do G perm scrambles =/


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## Robert-Y (Apr 24, 2011)

Statistics for 04-24-2011 20:14:39

Average: 1:51.88
Standard Deviation: 6.63
Best Time: 1:34.92
Worst Time: 2:39.90
Individual Times:
1.	2:00.29	
2.	1:55.22	
3.	(1:34.92)	
4.	1:40.13	
5.	(2:39.90)	

Scrambles were no. 8-12


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## Robert-Y (Apr 24, 2011)

Statistics for 04-24-2011 20:32:58

Average: 1:25.15
Standard Deviation: 0.00
Best Time: 1:10.66
Worst Time: 1:32.94
Individual Times:
1.	1:22.75	
2.	(1:10.66)	
3.	1:23.48	
4.	1:29.23	
5.	(1:32.94)	

Scrambles no. 13-17


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## dimwmuni (Apr 24, 2011)

I solved the first scramble and then tried timing a solve. After a couple minutes I screwed up execution of a z perm. I'll try timing another solve later.


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## bobthegiraffemonkey (Apr 24, 2011)

I did orientation (like in ZZ) then permutation. Can't be bothered trying to do it fast, but it was a fun challenge.


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## qqwref (Apr 24, 2011)

I did the first 30 solves (not in one sitting though). My hands are tired. Also, this is probably the most Z perms I've ever done in one day 
After trying a rough 3-cycle approach, my strategy was first layer -> second layer (3 Z for the easiest inserts) -> EPLL (Zs or 3-cycles) -> EOLL (with (Z y x')6).

number of times: 30/30
7:02.68, 3:13.35, 1:42.56, 5:02.07, 1:54.33, 1:31.47, 2:37.89, 1:21.38, 1:49.88, 1:14.87, 1:21.11, 39.38, 1:50.82, 1:55.95, 1:24.70, 1:10.79, 1:39.79, 2:01.31, 58.93, 1:31.73, 1:25.34, 1:25.54, 1:16.30, 1:20.23, 1:09.83, 1:33.54, 1:23.75, 55.46, 1:29.05, 1:19.03

best time: 39.38 :O


Spoiler



let Z = R U' R' U D R' U' D R' U R D2 F

12) 39.38 R' L' U2 R' B' D F' B L' U F2 U2 B2 R' B2 L' U2 D2 L' D2 F2 U2

1L: z Z y' x' Z / x z Z / z' x' Z y' Z z Z / y' z Z
2L: y z' Z y' x' Z x y Z / x' z Z z' y Z y' z Z z' y Z
EPLL: y' Z z Z
EOLL: skipped!
16 / 39.38 = 0.406 Zps


best avg5: 1:17.94 (σ = 5.91)
1:20.23, 1:09.83, (1:33.54), 1:23.75, (55.46)

best avg12: 1:19.97 (σ = 9.24)
58.93, 1:31.73, 1:25.34, 1:25.54, 1:16.30, 1:20.23, 1:09.83, (1:33.54), 1:23.75, (55.46), 1:29.05, 1:19.03

session avg: 1:42.18 (σ = 47.54)


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## mr. giggums (Apr 24, 2011)

2:49.45 2nd try
2:20.38 3rd try
3:51.88 4th try (This is the frist time I got a U-perm)

I used petrus. I makes edge orientation a lot easier.

Edit:


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## Stefan (Apr 24, 2011)

qqwref said:


> My hands are tired. Also, this is probably the most Z perms I've ever done in one day



Same here, same here.



qqwref said:


> best time: 39.38 :O


Whoa... lucky, but also very well done. Awesome time. You didn't maybe get it on video?



qqwref said:


> 0.406 *Zps*



Lol... anybody interested in FZC?


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## qqwref (Apr 24, 2011)

Stefan said:


> Whoa... lucky, but also very well done. Awesome time. You didn't maybe get it on video?


Nope, I very rarely record cubing these days.


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## ilikecubing (Apr 24, 2011)

How are you guys able to solve with only Z perms. It doesn't affect corners,right?

EDIT : My Bad I tried to scramble using Z perms and saw that it does affect corners if you make rotations,sorry.


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## uberCuber (Apr 24, 2011)

ilikecubing, Stefan has a list of 50 scrambles in the original post that do not affect corners. Pure Z perms do not affect corners no matter how much you rotate the cube.


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## clincr (Apr 24, 2011)

ilikecubing said:


> How are you guys able to solve with only Z perms. It doesn't affect corners,right?
> 
> EDIT : My Bad I tried to scramble using Z perms and saw that * it does affect corners of you make rotations *,sorry.


 
no. Z perms only affect edges, no matter the orientation of the cube. Also, look at the scrambles in the OP.


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## ilikecubing (Apr 25, 2011)

uberCuber said:


> ilikecubing, Stefan has a list of 50 scrambles in the original post that do not affect corners.


 
OOps Ok,I didn't see them


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## Stefan (Apr 25, 2011)

And if someone is crazy enough to need more scrambles, let me know and I'll compute more.


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## Julian (Apr 25, 2011)

33.12 single.








...for cross


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## amostay2004 (Apr 25, 2011)

Stefan said:


> And if someone is crazy enough to need more scrambles, let me know and I'll compute more.


 
You can always get them from Prisma Timer's edges-only scrambles


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## riffz (Apr 25, 2011)

Kirjava said:


> That is actually two seperate Z perms.
> 
> M2UM2U' E2ME2M M'E2M'E2 D'M2DM2
> 
> I'm not allowed to cancel moves?


 
I lol'd.


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## Hyprul 9-ty2 (Apr 25, 2011)

9:34.48 for the F2L.
Now I'm stuck with some ELL and I have no idea how to do it.


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## Sa967St (Apr 25, 2011)

4:02.64 using reduction so that it was solvable using half turns. I got really lucky, I don't think I'm gonna try this again.


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## Stefan (Apr 25, 2011)

amostay2004 said:


> You can always get them from Prisma Timer's edges-only scrambles


 
Ah, that's much better then, having them in a timer already. I know PPT does a lot, I just didn't think of it cause I'm still using CCT.


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## Tim Major (Apr 25, 2011)

A sim would be cool. Scrambles edges only. The controls? Hi-games rotations, with space for Z-perm


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## Stefan (Apr 25, 2011)

Tim Major said:


> with space for Z-perm



Ooh, yeah... left space for left Z, right space for right Z!


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## Zubon (Apr 25, 2011)

Doing this makes me realize just how inconsistent my Z perms are. In 2 out of 3 solves I screw the alg and have to start again.


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## FatBoyXPC (Apr 25, 2011)

Stefan said:


> Ooh, yeah... left space for left Z, right space for right Z!


 
I'm guessing you said this because you use one of those split keyboards (I think I recall seeing it in one of your videos)? Do you know if the different spaces actually send different codes?

I shall try this during my lunch break or when I get home, this looks interesting


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## Stefan (Apr 25, 2011)

fatboyxpc said:


> Do you know if the different spaces actually send different codes?



No I don't, I wondered about that myself when I posted the idea. Was mostly a joke.

Edit: wrote a little test in Java (GUI with KeyEvents), at least there I get the same values for both spaces. Also, googling "left and right space key" and similar didn't find anything, so I guess it's either complicated or not possible.


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## FatBoyXPC (Apr 25, 2011)

I knew it was a joke, but you sparked my curiosity  It'd be pretty sweet if they did have different values though


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## Lucas Garron (Apr 26, 2011)

Tim Major said:


> A sim would be cool. Scrambles edges only. The controls? Hi-games rotations, with space for Z-perm


Ahem. It's sad when even the old-timers don't remember.


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## qqwref (Apr 26, 2011)

I should make a qCube version of that (probably after I get the replay/reconstruction one working). It would be a lot more useful capped at 1000 tps than at 8...


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## Tim Major (Apr 26, 2011)

Lucas Garron said:


> Ahem. It's sad when even the old-timers don't remember.


 
Yes, I know about this, and sure scrambling works, but is there a way to set macros?


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## d4m4s74 (Apr 26, 2011)

Before I even saw this thread, I tried to solve with only U perms, I'll try the Z perm one when I'm at work

Okay, My first try took me about 15 minutes, I did not look at the "algs" on this page, will try again later


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## Stefan (Apr 26, 2011)

Lucas Garron said:


> Ahem. It's sad when even the old-timers don't remember.



Can't remember what I never used 



Tim Major said:


> Yes, I know about this, and sure scrambling works, but is there a way to set macros?


 
Don't you see the description on the right side of that page?


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## Kirjava (Apr 26, 2011)

U perm would be much easier


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## Tim Major (Apr 26, 2011)

Stefan said:


> Don't you see the description on the right side of that page?


Errr... Yes? Where does that mention macros? :confused: afaik the option to set algorithms to a key doesn't exist. I was asking.


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## Stefan (Apr 26, 2011)

Kirjava said:


> U perm would be much easier



It is, though I just tried and it did take me 3+ minutes because OLL was a ***** :fp
Then I used Petrus (as suggested for Z by someone else earlier) and got 1:41.



Tim Major said:


> Errr... Yes? Where does that mention macros?


 
Seriously?

Just enter a Z perm as your only generator.


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## qqwref (Apr 28, 2011)

You'll need two rotations as well.

Solving with U perms is a lot easier IMO. Probably faster too (and not just because U perms are faster to execute).


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