# Proposal: Allowing audio equipment during official attempts



## Sajwo (Aug 12, 2016)

My proposal is to allow listening to the music during official attempts. I don't really see any reason why it is forbidden - it helps competitors to handle the pressure better. Some of the people may even have better results with that possibility.


I also think that we can all agree with one thing - a spectator and a competitor, both with bluetooth earplugs and communicating with each other would be a completely ridiculous situation and that probably wouldn't ever happen, because it's very inefficient for the competitor.

I think it should be forbidden though for the following events (obvious reasons):
- MBLD
- 3BLD
- 4BLD
- 5BLD
- FMC


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## ender9994 (Aug 12, 2016)

First day of music being allowed: 

competitor complains about his +2 because he couldn't hear the judge telling him his inspection times....


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## turtwig (Aug 12, 2016)

Sajwo said:


> I also think that we can all agree with one thing - a spectator and a competitor, both with bluetooth earplugs and communicating with each other would be a completely ridiculous situation and that probably wouldn't ever happen, because it's very inefficient for the competitor.



Is this the reason for the rule? Anyway, I don't think we should change it. It's basically impossible to regulate what someone can play on their earplugs, so there'll be a lot of possibilities of cheating. Maybe they won't communicate with someone else, but they can listen to other things, for example, maybe they don't know OLL parity and they play a audio file that recites it to them. I guess this example and a lot of other things we can think of are not very plausible, but if the rule is changed some competitors might think of much more clever ways to cheat world records or prestigious titles that we haven't thought of yet - there's a lot of money involved in breaking records/winning big comps so I think it's totally possible.


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## One Wheel (Aug 12, 2016)

Personally, I find I'm slower when listening to music. I could see white noise being helpful in a loud environment, though.

I don't see listening to algs being helpful. Maybe for memorizing them in the first place, but it would be difficult to follow and slow for a competition.


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## mark49152 (Aug 12, 2016)

Listening to a regular beat (like metronome) might be helpful for controlling the pace of a solve. I think it should stay banned.


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## APdRF (Aug 12, 2016)

Can you tell me one sport where it's legal to listen to music while competing?


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## biscuit (Aug 12, 2016)

APdRF said:


> Can you tell me one sport where it's legal to listen to music while competing?



Well Cubing isn't a sport, but I get your point.


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## WACWCA (Aug 12, 2016)

I definitely agree with ender9994, and as for competitors communicating, I do think that it would be a possible advantage, because they could say what cross or side to solve.


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## DGCubes (Aug 12, 2016)

Define music. What if my favorite song happens to have the lyrics, "R U R' U' R' F R2 U' R' U' R U R' F'?" If this were to be allowed, the judges/delegates would have to check what you're listening to beforehand, and there are ways to get around that anyway (e.g. by naming your alg-track "Shake It Off.mp3"). So this would mean that they'd have to actually listen to the songs themselves, which could STILL be altered and have algorithms or other information hidden inside them near the end. If I have a ten hour long playlist and want to listen to it while competing, a judge or delegate would theoretically have to listen to the entire thing before letting me solve, if we want to be positive I'm not cheating.

As far as it possibly helping people to deal with stress, here's my personal stance on that:
Part of a competition for anything, not just cubing, is dealing with stress. If you are unable to deal with stress and get bad official times because of that, you should set aside time outside of competitions to learn how to handle stress. If some hypothetical person who averages sub-6 at home fails every competition and gets 10 second averages, they obviously can't handle the stress and don't deserve the win.

We've been doing it without music this whole time, and the people who truly deserve the good times (those who are fast AND can handle competition stress) have still been getting them. I really don't see music as practical or necessary in cubing competitions.


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## Matt11111 (Aug 12, 2016)

I go through the thread so far and I see many ways this rule could be destroyed by loopholes. Technology is wonderful and all, but the fact that you can change the name of an .mp3 file to a popular song or make a really long playlist with algs hidden in them (as DG said), they can remain completely oblivious to the amount of time they've been inspecting because headphones (as Ender said), and there isn't really any sport where you CAN listen to music anyway (as APdRF said). (By the way, only now do I realize that this isn't even a full sentence. Oh well.)

We've seen that phones have been a problem in competitions before, when a guy had a web page of algs on his phone during an FMC solve. So what's stopping someone from composing some music in MuseScore or something (great program, by the way), singing algorithms over it while eating soup or something to that music, putting it on their phone to listen to during a solve, and calling it TotallyNotSquanAlgs.mp3?

Perhaps for those people who want to listen to music, the judge should plug their phone into a massive speaker for everyone to hear all the wonderful algs they put into song form just tell them this thread exists, so they can see all the cons, loopholes, and such.


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## Chree (Aug 12, 2016)

There are some regulations that are in place simply to err on the side of caution. If it's possible that a lax reg could result in cheating, it must be made more strict.

Most of the example situations I've seen on this thread could be seen as either an advantage or a disadvantage to the "cheating" cuber. For instance, your audio track is reciting a T perm, but what you get is a G perm. The metronome or similarly tempo'ed track causes you to solve slower than you would have otherwise.

Either way, @ender9994 sealed the fate of this proposal in the very first response. And it's the most likely reason the reg is there in the first place. Miscommunication between the judge and the competitor has to be avoided. We can't expect the judge to yell through a competitors headphones and possibly disturb other cubers. And we surely can't excuse a competitors from missing a call for "12 seconds" when they chose to wear headphones. And the easiest way to mitigate those very possible outcomes to simply keep the ban in place.


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## Matt11111 (Aug 12, 2016)

Well, I think this idea has been sufficiently beaten into the bottom of the barrel.


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## EMI (Aug 12, 2016)

Chree said:


> Either way, @ender9994 sealed the fate of this proposal in the very first response. And it's the most likely reason the reg is there in the first place. Miscommunication between the judge and the competitor has to be avoided. We can't expect the judge to yell through a competitors headphones and possibly disturb other cubers. And we surely can't excuse a competitors from missing a call for "12 seconds" when they chose to wear headphones. And the easiest way to mitigate those very possible outcomes to simply keep the ban in place.



That's clearly not the reason, because you are allowed to wear earmuffs during solves: https://www.worldcubeassociation.org/regulations/#2i1b


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## tseitsei (Aug 12, 2016)

My first thought while reading this was those 2 guys from these forums who did awesome teamBLD UWRs (they were able to sub-10 teamBLD solves IIRC so it was quite effective) and had some kind of an efficient code for that (don't remember their names sorry). The code included different triggers and names for OLL cases and stuff like that.

And then I thought of the following situation:
Person A and B both know that code (or any other similar code).
Person A finishes his last solve and gets a PLL skip on that solve.
Person A goes to another room (he can say that he is going in to a toilet or whatever) and quickly reconstructs his last solve with PLL skip
Person A then connects to the headphones of person B (who still hasn't done his 5th solve) and is now quickly and efficiently able to tell what person B needs to do in order to get a PLL skip on that scramble.

May be a little far fetched but that is what I first thought.


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## Matt11111 (Aug 12, 2016)

EMI said:


> That's clearly not the reason, because you are allowed to wear earmuffs during solves: https://www.worldcubeassociation.org/regulations/#2i1b


Okay, something doesn't seem right about that.


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## PenguinsDontFly (Aug 12, 2016)

At first, I thought this regulation was dumb and was overly paranoid of people cheating, but after reading the replies on this thread, I can see how this could be an issue. I would still like to be able to listen to music while solving, but I don't think there's any way to make sure people don't cheat unless the judge listens to it through 1 ear bud and the competitor gets the other (which would be very funny but effective, however this is ridiculous to look at and judges would hesitate because of sanitary reasons). I think my solution is to just listen to music while waiting between solves, then take the ear buds out as I say "ready" (demonstration visible in my 8.98 official winning 3x3 average video).


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## Matt11111 (Aug 12, 2016)

PenguinsDontFly said:


> At first, I thought this regulation was dumb and was overly paranoid of people cheating, but after reading the replies on this thread, I can see how this could be an issue. I would still like to be able to listen to music while solving, but I don't think there's any way to make sure people don't cheat unless the judge listens to it through 1 ear bud and the competitor gets the other (which would be very funny but effective, however this is ridiculous to look at and judges would hesitate because of sanitary reasons). I think my solution is to just listen to music while waiting between solves, then take the ear buds out as I say "ready" (demonstration visible in my 8.98 official winning 3x3 average video).


I was going to mention the "you-get-one-earbud-and-the-judge-gets-the-other" idea in a post of my own, but like you said, it's ridiculous and unsanitary, yet effective. Sorry, germaphobes


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## tx789 (Aug 12, 2016)

People should never be allowed to listen to music during offical attempts. If they can't handle pressure too bad. People aren't allowed to wear headphones during sport events (and you would want too for some sports), I know cuing isn't sport(this isn't the place for argument) but it is still a competitive activity. I just think this is a silly suggestion.


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## DTCuber (Aug 12, 2016)

It is an interesting proposal. I do not know how practical it is, however. The regulations would be tough to enforce. 

Since the original intention is to relieve stress and help with the pressure of competing, I do not really think audio equipment is warranted because the pressure is part of speedcubing.


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## Chree (Aug 12, 2016)

EMI said:


> That's clearly not the reason, because you are allowed to wear earmuffs during solves: https://www.worldcubeassociation.org/regulations/#2i1b



I stand corrected.

It could still play a part, though. I've never worn a pear of earmuffs where I couldn't still hear things very close to me (say, a judge, for instance). For this reason, Having music playing over something blocking my ears would do a much better job at preventing me from hearing the judge. Moreso, if the lyrics of the song happen to be the phrase "12 seconds" over and over and over again.


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## Ronxu (Aug 12, 2016)

I sometimes have trouble dealing with pressure as well. Can I have an extra attempt if my hands start shaking?


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## obelisk477 (Aug 13, 2016)

This is why we don't allow listening to music during solves


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## Matt11111 (Aug 13, 2016)

obelisk477 said:


> This is why we don't allow listening to music during solves


(Clicks link) Oh yeah. Fair point.


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## Daniel Lin (Aug 13, 2016)

If the competitor can't hear 8 seconds or 12 seconds then that's his own fault, and he can't blame the judge for it.

Even if people were to cheat by using headphones/earphones to keep algorithms, they probably wouldn't get fast times. Say my favorite song is the OLL parity song, repeated over and over again, and I play it during my solve. If I didn't know the "lyrics" to it, I'd have to wait for the beginning of the song before I could start executing the algorithm. Cheating is definitely possible, but I think only really slow beginners would attempt it.



tseitsei said:


> My first thought while reading this was those 2 guys from these forums who did awesome teamBLD UWRs (they were able to sub-10 teamBLD solves IIRC so it was quite effective) and had some kind of an efficient code for that (don't remember their names sorry). The code included different triggers and names for OLL cases and stuff like that.
> 
> And then I thought of the following situation:
> Person A and B both know that code (or any other similar code).
> ...



Yeah but cheating can still happen even without headphones/earphones
Person A could just directly say the solution/teamBLD codes to Person B, while theya re both waiting, and probably no one would notice. especially for 2x2 or skewb, it's very easy to cheat, and you don't even need audio equipment
Same with BLD, say Person A and Person B use the same orientation and lettering scheme. Person A just finishes his solve, and while they are both waiting, whispers "FUWGBJXWFP IKWQ" to Person B. Now when it's Person B's turn he completely skips memo and gets a sub 20 WR.


PenguinsDontFly said:


> unless the judge listens to it through 1 ear bud and the competitor gets the other (which would be very funny but effective, however this is ridiculous to look at and judges would hesitate because of sanitary reasons)


lol that's hilarious


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## Matt11111 (Aug 13, 2016)

What if they were in, say, a Google Hangout on their phone, and their friend in said hangout was playing music from across the venue? Then the solver could angle the phone in such a way that their friend could see the cube and tell them a useful alg. This is less of a reason to not allow music and more of a reason to not allow earbuds to be used.


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## XTowncuber (Aug 13, 2016)

If you are using headphones to dictate algs then you suck so bad that I don't care if you cheat.

As it stands now, competitors can still pretty easily share solutions with each other in the competitor area without using communication devices (See Rami's 0.58). We're operating on a trust system anyway.

IMO it should be allowed. Judges should be allowed to check what the competitor is listening to if they want. But don't refute my points please I definitely don't care enough to argue about it.


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## tseitsei (Aug 13, 2016)

Daniel Lin said:


> Yeah but cheating can still happen even without headphones/earphones
> Between solves it's always loud, so Person A could just directly say the solution to Person B, and probably no one would notice.
> Same with BLD, say Person A and Person B use the same orientation and lettering scheme. Person A just finishes his solve, and while they are both waiting, whispers "FUWGBJXWFP IKWQ" to Person B. Now when it's Person B's turn he completely skips memo and gets a sub 20 WR. Cheating is possible even without using earphones.


Cheating can always happen but there is no reason to make it easier.
And BLD is totally irrelevant here since this wasn't even suggested to be allowed for BLD events.

Also I just don't see why we should allow using headphones.
Nerves is not a good answer. Because then I think I should be allowed to do official solves in my own apartment since that's where I normally solve and don't get nervous there. Also I should get more attempts because then I would be less nervous about messing up the solve.


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## WACWCA (Aug 13, 2016)

obelisk477 said:


> This is why we don't allow listening to music during solves


I was just going to say that


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## Daniel Lin (Aug 13, 2016)

tseitsei said:


> Cheating can always happen but there is no reason to make it easier.
> And BLD is totally irrelevant here since this wasn't even suggested to be allowed for BLD events.


I was just showing how easy it is to cheat even without using headphones, and as Drew Brads said we're operating on a trust system anyway



obelisk477 said:


> This is why we don't allow listening to music during solves


I seriously don't get how this would help you cheat. Maybe it could help you solve in 2 minutes instead of 5 minutes on a 3x3, but you're not going to get much farther than that


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## Dene (Aug 13, 2016)

Some of you seem to have forgotten that there are two aspects to our competitions: 

Being able to solve a cube
Solving it fast
Because of reason 1 this should never be allowed.


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## PenguinsDontFly (Aug 13, 2016)

Dene said:


> Some of you seem to have forgotten that there are two aspects to our competitions:
> 
> Being able to solve a cube
> Solving it fast
> Because of reason 1 this should never be allowed.


Allowing headphones would make many people better at your #2.


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## tseitsei (Aug 13, 2016)

PenguinsDontFly said:


> Allowing headphones would make many people better at your #2.


Allowing more attempts in comps if you accidentally fail or longer inspection would make many people better at #2.

Allowing "cheat sheets" or something like that makes many people better at #1.

The meaning of the regulations is not to make solving easier but to make it equal and fair. To get better at either #1 or #2 you need to practise


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## JanW (Aug 13, 2016)

PenguinsDontFly said:


> I don't think there's any way to make sure people don't cheat unless the judge listens to it through 1 ear bud and the competitor gets the other (which would be very funny but effective, however this is ridiculous to look at and judges would hesitate because of sanitary reasons).


Not effective at all. You can have completely different audio in left and right channel of a stereo track. I'm sure there is also some app out there which would allow you to pan your music player to one earbud and the incoming call from your friend to the other.


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## mark49152 (Aug 13, 2016)

Or algorithms or solutions could be encoded to musical sounds using a scheme known only to the competitor and their accomplice who is controlling it from an app in the next room. The judge would never know the difference.

Or the really determined cheat could write an app and run it on the smartphone that they use as a camera for the solve, to encode the back view of the cube into musical sounds in real time. So what sounds like rubbish 80s techno to the the judge is actually telling the competitor which F2L pair to do next!


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## Umm Roux? (Aug 13, 2016)

Cheating could occur easily without headphones, just let them do it. It's not allowed in most sports because doing something such as synchronized swimming with earbuds is not advised.


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## tseitsei (Aug 13, 2016)

Umm Roux? said:


> Cheating could occur easily without headphones, just let them do it. It's not allowed in most sports because doing something such as synchronized swimming with earbuds is not advised.


In bowling, snooker, shooting and several other sports you could (and I bet some competitors would like to) use headphones but it is not allowed.
So why should cubing be an exception?


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## Umm Roux? (Aug 13, 2016)

tseitsei said:


> In bowling, snooker, shooting and several other sports you could (and I bet some competitors would like to) use headphones but it is not allowed.
> So why should cubing be an exception?


 If someone decides to rob a bank, why shouldn't we?


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## tseitsei (Aug 13, 2016)

Umm Roux? said:


> If someone decides to rob a bank, why shouldn't we?


Yeah that is totally a good and relevant comparison, thank you for that. /sarcasm

You do understand that comparing cubing to other 'sports' is quite a bit more relevant than comparing cubing to robbing a bank right?


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## Umm Roux? (Aug 13, 2016)

Sorry for the overboard comparison but if bowlers decide not to use headphones, it doesn't mean that we shouldn't. Also, what harm do headphones do?


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## tseitsei (Aug 13, 2016)

Umm Roux? said:


> Sorry for the overboard comparison but if bowlers decide not to use headphones, it doesn't mean that we shouldn't. Also, what harm do headphones do?


Someone could quite easily communicate with the solver during the solve without anyone noticing.


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## Umm Roux? (Aug 13, 2016)

They could do that before the solve. Also, I think that they should not allow it for BLD and a few other things posted before.


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## tseitsei (Aug 13, 2016)

Umm Roux? said:


> They could do that before the solve. Also, I think that they should not allow it for BLD and a few other things posted before.


They could but if they do it face to face they risk getting caught since someone could very well notice that.


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## Umm Roux? (Aug 13, 2016)

How would they get caught face to face though. They could do it quietly. Not many people would be wondering if they were discussing something like 5BLD. Would you start eavesdropping on two cubers because they were potentially discussing FMC or BLD?


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## tseitsei (Aug 13, 2016)

Umm Roux? said:


> How would they get caught face to face though. They could do it quietly. Not many people would be wondering if they were discussing something like 5BLD. Would you start eavesdropping on two cubers because they were potentially discussing FMC or BLD?


No I wouldn't but if I was in the competitors area I could quite possibly overhear them talking about the scrambles. (Speaking in some code or speaking out the memo for a scramble sound quite different from normal conversation.)

EDIT: Also whispering to each other in the competitors area seems...suspicious to say the least...


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## Umm Roux? (Aug 13, 2016)

Washroom? They could discuss quietly in a corner, or on extreme cases, the washroom facilities.
Secon Edit: Whispering is not that bad, and the delegates would have minimal proof.


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## tseitsei (Aug 13, 2016)

Umm Roux? said:


> Washroom? They could discuss quietly in a corner, or on extreme cases, the washroom facilities.


Yeah as I said earlier. Cheating can always happen but why make it easier


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## newtonbase (Aug 13, 2016)

I would be concerned about the impact this could have on the time it takes to get a competitor ready to solve. This is an area that already needs improvement. 
Also, I think handling pressure is a natural part of competition that people should find their own strategies for.


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## DGCubes (Aug 13, 2016)

Umm Roux? said:


> Sorry for the overboard comparison but if bowlers decide not to use headphones, it doesn't mean that we shouldn't. Also, what harm do headphones do?



The other possible problem is storing algs. I get that people who are doing this are most likely slow, but that does not mean it should be allowed. The WCA results are supposed to be accurate and trustworthy, and if the WCA blindly allows cheating with newer competitors, it may give them some other ideas about how they can cheat. Sure, maybe having an alg playing isn't the worst thing in the world, but it may lead them to thinking they can cheat in other ways, with or without headphones.

And one other point about people being too slow for it to matter:
Think of an event like feet, where even relatively fast people still don't have a particularly high TPS. What if someone who averages ~45 seconds is playing algs they don't know in their headphones? Sure, it's a dumb way to cheat, but it's still a possibility that shouldn't be overlooked.


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## Umm Roux? (Aug 13, 2016)

Good point but headphones does not make it much easier because you have to go through all that trouble when you could've done it before your BLD solve or prior to the 1 hour of FMC time.
Edit: We could let them select songs that the judges(or a delegate) downloads then the judge selects it prior to the solve.


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## PenguinsDontFly (Aug 13, 2016)

tseitsei said:


> Allowing more attempts in comps if you accidentally fail or longer inspection would make many people better at #2.
> 
> Allowing "cheat sheets" or something like that makes many people better at #1.
> 
> The meaning of the regulations is not to make solving easier but to make it equal and fair. To get better at either #1 or #2 you need to practise


Haha I mainly said that because Dene seemed to weigh #1 and #2 equally, and allowing headphones would affect both. Obviously more attempts and longer inspection would help, but these will never be implemented because that would be unfair to competitors in the past. That's just like lowering a tennis net by a foot or making a hockey net 2 times bigger. 


JanW said:


> Not effective at all. You can have completely different audio in left and right channel of a stereo track. I'm sure there is also some app out there which would allow you to pan your music player to one earbud and the incoming call from your friend to the other.


I was thinking the exact same thing as I posted.


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## tseitsei (Aug 13, 2016)

Umm Roux? said:


> Good point but headphones does not make it much easier because you have to go through all that trouble when you could've done it before your BLD solve or prior to the 1 hour of FMC time.


Yes they do make it somewhat easier and greatly reduce the risk of getting caught.

OFFTOPIC: Also how would you discuss your FMC scramble before the attempt? Everyone should start their FMC attempts at the same time just to prevent this exact scenario


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## Umm Roux? (Aug 13, 2016)

tseitsei said:


> Yes they do make it somewhat easier and greatly reduce the risk of getting caught.
> 
> OFFTOPIC: Also how would you discuss your FMC scramble before the attempt? Everyone should start their FMC attempts at the same time just to prevent this exact scenario


 Oops, then BLD


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## tseitsei (Aug 13, 2016)

PenguinsDontFly said:


> Haha I mainly said that because Dene seemed to weigh #1 and #2 equally, and allowing headphones would affect both. Obviously more attempts and longer inspection would help, but these will never be implemented because *that would be unfair to competitors in the past.* That's just like lowering a tennis net by a foot or making a hockey net 2 times bigger.


So would allowing headphones. Competitors in the past had to deal with competition stress without the help of music and competitors in the future wouldn't have to do that --> future competitors gain an advantage.


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## tseitsei (Aug 13, 2016)

Umm Roux? said:


> Oops, then BLD


Again why make cheating easier and less risky? If they talk about the scramble face to face there is at least a risk that someone notices that. Unlike when they communicate through headphones


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## Umm Roux? (Aug 13, 2016)

tseitsei said:


> So would allowing headphones. Competitors in the past had to deal with competition stress without the help of music and competitors in the future wouldn't have to do that --> future competitors gain an advantage.


Better cubes also give an advantage, so does many other things.



tseitsei said:


> Again why make cheating easier and less risky? If they talk about the scramble face to face there is at least a risk that someone notices that. Unlike when they communicate through headphones


Face to Face is not dangerous at all. And the other person on the other side of the BLD attempt would have to be able to see the cube so they would also be in danger of being found out.


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## tseitsei (Aug 13, 2016)

Umm Roux? said:


> Better cubes also give an advantage, so does many other things.


Yep but those are all advantages that can be gained without altering the regulations. The rules are still the same for past competitors than they are for us now. Sure methods and cubes have developed but that is something that naturally develops and not something that is 'artificially' defined by regulations


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## Umm Roux? (Aug 13, 2016)

tseitsei said:


> Yep but those are all advantages that can be gained without altering the regulations. The rules are still the same for past competitors than they are for us now. Sure methods and cubes have developed but that is something that naturally develops and not something that is 'artificially' defined by regulations


Altering regulations is not a bad thing though.


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## PenguinsDontFly (Aug 13, 2016)

tseitsei said:


> So would allowing headphones. Competitors in the past had to deal with competition stress without the help of music and competitors in the future wouldn't have to do that --> future competitors gain an advantage.


Yes, that's definitely true, but you should be able to see how the advantage would be way less than the other things I mentioned. Changing inspection time for example, completely PHYSICALLY changes the event. Like I said, that's like lowering a tennis net by a foot. Allowing music would be similar to better hardware, as @Umm Roux? mentioned, so that would be better tennis rackets, or even in olympic swimming they added a rule that swimmers are allowed to stand on a bar type thing and push off of it before starting the backstroke event. I think this example is perfect. Before, swimmers' feet would slide down the walls, and they weren't able to push off properly. Even though the bar gives them a slight advantage over previous swimmers, it's not like they're now allowed to wear flippers on their feet.


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## tseitsei (Aug 13, 2016)

Umm Roux? said:


> Altering regulations is not a bad thing though.


It is not always a bad thing if regs are made more clear or something like that but IMO the solving procedure itself should be kept as similar as possible so we can compare times from different years and see how our sport evolves.

But yeah. I'm starting to grow tired of this debate.

My opinion is that this should never be allowed because cheating and fairness. And I don't think I have anything more to say right now so I'll stop responding to this thread now


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## Umm Roux? (Aug 13, 2016)

tseitsei said:


> It is not always a bad thing if regs are made more clear or something like that but IMO the solving procedure itself should be kept as similar as possible so we can compare times from different years and see how our sport evolves.
> 
> But yeah. I'm starting to grow tired of this debate.
> 
> My opinion is that this should never be allowed because cheating and fairness. And I don't think I have anything more to say right now so I'll stop responding to this thread now


Nice to know both sides of this debate, wish you success in BLD.


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## tseitsei (Aug 13, 2016)

Umm Roux? said:


> Nice to know both sides of this debate, wish you success in BLD.


Thanks


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## SolveThatCube (Aug 13, 2016)

Using headphones just makes cheating easier for cheaters. If you're super slow and need to listen to algs being recited - which wouldn't improve your time as much as learning the alg would - it's still cheating.
Yes we're already operating on a trust system. Competitors shouldn't talk about scrambles that not everyone has completed, but there is no simple way to stop them from doing that. Keeping headphones banned prevents more people from cheating and that's why it should stay banned IMO. Sorry Sajwo.


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## BboyArchon (Aug 13, 2016)

biscuit said:


> Well Cubing isn't a sport, but I get your point.


According to the Arnold Classic Europe website, we are a sport 

http://www.arnoldclassiceurope.es/2016/deportes/

Following with the thread topic, I love to cube with music and home and I have better times while listening to metal songs but I think music shouldn't be allowed in competitions for obvious reasons (most of them already said above)


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## DGCubes (Aug 13, 2016)

Umm Roux? said:


> Edit: We could let them select songs that the judges(or a delegate) downloads then the judge selects it prior to the solve.



There are thousands and thousands of songs out there, and what if the judges/delegates only pick 20 or so? One person who may want to listen to music may like none of these songs, and thus would be faced with a disadvantage to others who do. Plus, the amount of time it would take to download these songs for everyone who wants one at a 500+ person competition is more time that could be spent doing actual solves. Not to mention that these songs would need to be downloaded immediately before the person's solves, because otherwise they could just make an alg-track and give it that name, in between getting the song and solving.


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## RennuR (Aug 13, 2016)

DGCubes said:


> Define music. What if my favorite song happens to have the lyrics, "R U R' U' R' F R2 U' R' U' R U R' F'?" If this were to be allowed, the judges/delegates would have to check what you're listening to beforehand, and there are ways to get around that anyway (e.g. by naming your alg-track "Shake It Off.mp3"). So this would mean that they'd have to actually listen to the songs themselves, which could STILL be altered and have algorithms or other information hidden inside them near the end. If I have a ten hour long playlist and want to listen to it while competing, a judge or delegate would theoretically have to listen to the entire thing before letting me solve, if we want to be positive I'm not cheating.
> 
> As far as it possibly helping people to deal with stress, here's my personal stance on that:
> Part of a competition for anything, not just cubing, is dealing with stress. If you are unable to deal with stress and get bad official times because of that, you should set aside time outside of competitions to learn how to handle stress. If some hypothetical person who averages sub-6 at home fails every competition and gets 10 second averages, they obviously can't handle the stress and don't deserve the win.
> ...



This was honestly the perfect explanation, In think he summed it up.. *Dont allow music *


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## Matt11111 (Aug 13, 2016)

I wake up this morning, and I see that there were over 65 replies to this thread, but do we really need that many?

*There are too many loopholes, so a rule allowing music/earbuds would be difficult to enforce.
*
With earbuds in, you could do soooo many things to get algs fed to your brain. To be fair, it more than likely won't help the faster people, but who knows? Maybe they couldn't remember for the life of them whether the alg included an R or an R', and by complete coincidence, the alg they needed was in the "song" they made.


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## AlexMaass (Aug 13, 2016)

just imagine the song playing in your head problem solved


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## Matt11111 (Aug 13, 2016)

AlexMaass said:


> just imagine the song playing in your head problem solved


Are you talking about alg songs or song songs?


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## PenguinsDontFly (Aug 13, 2016)

Matt11111 said:


> Are you talking about alg songs or song songs?


Both!


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## Matt11111 (Aug 13, 2016)

AlexMaass said:


> just imagine the song playing in your head problem solved


Fair enough.


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## Loiloiloi (Aug 13, 2016)

Alright, no one has mentioned this yet so I'm gonna bring it up. Anyone sub-30 or even sub-40 could fairly easily get world record average if this was allowed.

How to do it:

Bring a camera connected to software that looks at the cube and creates a sub-30 move solution (Perfectly legal to use a camera during solves)
Have another software which converts each turn (R, U, F) into a musical note. (Wouldn't be visible to judges since it's software and not hardware)
Connect the musical feed via bluetooth to headphones and have the tempo be 6 turns per second (Could be increased up to 10 with some practice I think. 2 second solve?)
Show the cube to the camera during inspection
Perform the turns given to you (Not hard to do since you just turn your brain off and listen to the notes, it would be like performing an algorithm)
Get easy world record average or single with almost no work.


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## Umm Roux? (Aug 13, 2016)

Extremely small earbuds could do the same.


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## Loiloiloi (Aug 13, 2016)

Umm Roux? said:


> Extremely small earbuds could do the same.


These are the smallest I have found: http://www.rowkin.com/
I don't think these are small enough that anyone wouldn't be suspicious


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## Umm Roux? (Aug 13, 2016)

Loiloiloi said:


> These are the smallest I have found: http://www.rowkin.com/
> I don't think these are small enough that anyone wouldn't be suspicious


Nice research... Could always hide it behind your luminous hair.


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## Matt11111 (Aug 13, 2016)

Loiloiloi said:


> Alright, no one has mentioned this yet so I'm gonna bring it up. Anyone sub-30 or even sub-40 could fairly easily get world record average if this was allowed.
> 
> How to do it:
> 
> ...


That's a thing?


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## Loiloiloi (Aug 13, 2016)

Matt11111 said:


> That's a thing?


You kinda have to give some reference, otherwise no one will know what you


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## Umm Roux? (Aug 13, 2016)

Loiloiloi said:


> You kinda have to give some reference, otherwise no one will know what you


Maybe it's personal experience...


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## Matt11111 (Aug 13, 2016)

Loiloiloi said:


> You kinda have to give some reference, otherwise no one will know what you


The music software is a thing?


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## Umm Roux? (Aug 13, 2016)

Matt11111 said:


> The music software is a thing?


It probably isn't an actual thing yet, and hopefully never, but we just got confused over the question mark.


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## Matt11111 (Aug 13, 2016)

Umm Roux? said:


> It probably isn't an actual thing yet, and hopefully never, but we just got confused over the question mark.


Oh. Well, hopefully no dishonest cuber (although there aren't that many) who's skilled in the art of programming will do such a thing.


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## XTowncuber (Aug 13, 2016)

Loiloiloi said:


> Alright, no one has mentioned this yet so I'm gonna bring it up. Anyone sub-30 or even sub-40 could fairly easily get world record average if this was allowed.
> 
> How to do it:
> 
> ...


Yeah but if some random guy starts throwing down fours it's pretty easy to realize he's faking. Just ask him to explain his solution or do some more since.

The only way I can think that this would really cause a problem is in "big finals" where competitors come out in twos. Theoretically an audience member could give some advice to a competitor after they come out to solve. (You can't use phones in ready room anyway).

Other than that all the examples given are pretty silly. (Do we actually care if some nub gets an official time but doesn't actually know how to solve it? Cause I don't.)


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## DGCubes (Aug 13, 2016)

XTowncuber said:


> Other than that all the examples given are pretty silly. (Do we actually care if some nub gets an official time but doesn't actually know how to solve it? Cause I don't.)



Fair point, but that doesn't mean we should make it easy for them to do that. The WCA should really have as accurate and true results as possible.


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## Sajwo (Aug 13, 2016)

Loiloiloi said:


> Alright, no one has mentioned this yet so I'm gonna bring it up. Anyone sub-30 or even sub-40 could fairly easily get world record average if this was allowed.
> 
> How to do it:
> 
> ...



That would be immediately spotted by a judge


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## Loiloiloi (Aug 13, 2016)

Sajwo said:


> That would be immediately spotted by a judge


The practicality of it isn't as important, and even so there could be things that would make it plausible, lower the tempo so you just get sub-15s, completely possible for a random.


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## Sajwo (Aug 13, 2016)

Loiloiloi said:


> The practicality of it isn't as important, and even so there could be things that would make it plausible, lower the tempo so you just get sub-15s, completely possible for a random.



I wasn't reffering to the high tps. Judge would easily notice if he use random moves or a actual method.


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## Matt11111 (Aug 13, 2016)

DGCubes said:


> Fair point, but that doesn't mean we should make it easy for them to do that. The WCA should really have as accurate and true results as possible.


Right. But why are we worrying ourselves about this? We're being REALLY paranoid about this situation. Most, if not all of us wouldn't even think of cheating in a solve. On multiple occasions, I've even confirmed with judges that my solve was a DNF after I realized something went wrong. One time was Manhasset 2015, where I was solving 2x2 and TPC was my judge. I didn't keep my hands on the StackMat for long enough to start the solve, so I started to solve the cube before the time started. I was pretty sure it was a DNF, even though I didn't complete a full turn before I realized what I'd done.

Then at Big Apple Spring, I was doing 4x4 and at the end of my solve, the cube landed on the power button instead of the mat.  So I immediately said, "That's a DNF," and then my dad yelled at me for saying that, because he thinks the judge should tell me that. Jeez, Dad, if I got a DNF, I'm going to admit it. I admit it to myself at home, so why not at a comp?

My point is, a vast majority of cubers are honest about their solves. We're getting ourselves all worked up over a theoretical minority who would use the music rule to their advantage.


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## Loiloiloi (Aug 13, 2016)

Sajwo said:


> I wasn't reffering to the high tps. Judge would easily notice if he use random moves or a actual method.


I think you overestimate the average experience of judges


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## Cale S (Aug 13, 2016)

In my opinion the purpose of the regulation is less about preventing cheating and more about creating the same solving environment for competitors, which in turn eliminates cheating in that kind of way


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## XTowncuber (Aug 13, 2016)

DGCubes said:


> Fair point, but that doesn't mean we should make it easy for them to do that. The WCA should really have as accurate and true results as possible.


Sorry, I should have reiterated. You're not allowed to refute my points because I don't feel like arguing. Just accept me for who I am.


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## DGCubes (Aug 13, 2016)

XTowncuber said:


> Sorry, I should have reiterated. You're not allowed to refute my points because I don't feel like arguing. Just accept me for who I am.



k <3

On topic, this might be an interesting poll to make:
Would you listen to music during solves if it were WCA legal?


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## Matt11111 (Aug 13, 2016)

DGCubes said:


> k <3
> 
> On topic, this might be an interesting poll to make:
> Would you listen to music during solves if it were WCA legal?


Well, being part of the honest majority of us, I could listen to some Smooth McGroove during a solve. That man is awesome.


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## Ninja Storm (Aug 13, 2016)

consider the situation where you have two very experienced team BLDers at a competition. One of them films a solve early in the heat, when their friend hasn't gone yet. 

The filmer then enters the cube into a computer, where they receive the scramble. They can then communicate the first few pairs to the solver, effectively giving them the ability to see much further into the solve than they otherwise would be able to.

While it's not perfect, this is a way I can see fast solvers getting a significant advantage.


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## Dene (Aug 14, 2016)

XTowncuber said:


> Yeah but if some random guy starts throwing down fours it's pretty easy to realize he's faking. Just ask him to explain his solution or do some more since.
> 
> The only way I can think that this would really cause a problem is in "big finals" where competitors come out in twos. Theoretically an audience member could give some advice to a competitor after they come out to solve. (You can't use phones in ready room anyway).
> 
> Other than that all the examples given are pretty silly. (Do we actually care if some nub gets an official time but doesn't actually know how to solve it? Cause I don't.)



mmhmm, I heard the latest version of the regs is just gonna scrap everything that's there, and will instead say "as long as XTowncuber doesn't care it's ok"


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## FastCubeMaster (Aug 14, 2016)

I don't know why, but I love reading these arguments.
Especially when Dene posts.


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## EMI (Aug 14, 2016)

Ninja Storm said:


> consider the situation where you have two very experienced team BLDers at a competition. One of them films a solve early in the heat, when their friend hasn't gone yet.
> 
> The filmer then enters the cube into a computer, where they receive the scramble. They can then communicate the first few pairs to the solver, effectively giving them the ability to see much further into the solve than they otherwise would be able to.
> 
> While it's not perfect, this is a way I can see fast solvers getting a significant advantage.



They can just walk to them and tell them the solution. Or give them the solution on a sheet of paper. I don't think it makes much difference in this scenario, and, in my opinion, the real problem in this case is that different / consecutive heats have the same set of scrambles.
(Is this still the case? It really shouldn't be ...)
In general, I don't think all these fancy ways to cheat are a very strong argument. It has been said multiple times in this thread, but again: If you really want to cheat in a competition, and especially if you have a friend who helps you, there are already so many ways to do it, and I don't think it makes a difference.

I am not saying that headphones should be allowed, I am rather split on this.

Btw, I hope Loiloiloi is just trolling with his example


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## Jbacboy (Aug 14, 2016)

If you like music during your solves, simply suggest to your organizer to play music during the competion. Many comps in my area do that, and i quite like it actually.


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## Matt11111 (Aug 14, 2016)

Jbacboy said:


> If you like music during your solves, simply suggest to your organizer to play music during the competion. Many comps in my area do that, and i quite like it actually.


Hey, there's an idea.

Also, I scroll through this thread and I realize that taking part in debates will get you a ton of likes. Wow.


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## turtwig (Aug 14, 2016)

Matt11111 said:


> Also, I scroll through this thread and I realize that taking part in debates will get you a ton of likes. Wow.



-Go to a debate thread
-Argue for the winning side
-Profit


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## RennuR (Aug 14, 2016)

Matt11111 said:


> Hey, there's an idea.
> 
> Also, I scroll through this thread and I realize that taking part in debates will get you a ton of likes. Wow.



Wait really? Im in!. Just kidding I already posted my opinions, i feel like we have kinda come to a conclusion that 85% of use dont want music to be aloud.... so I think it can kinda end haha


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## AlphaSheep (Aug 14, 2016)

XTowncuber said:


> Do we actually care if some nub gets an official time but doesn't actually know how to solve it? Cause I don't.


That's huge slap in the face and a big middle finger to ever person who's worked hard to be able to solve a cube on their own just to get an official average.

Why don't we just let slow solvers use cheat sheets. In fact, why don't we just allow slow solvers to have someone faster do their solves for them? As long as they don't get world records, who cares, right?


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## Matt11111 (Aug 14, 2016)

AlphaSheep said:


> That's huge slap in the face and a big middle finger to ever person who's worked hard to be able to solve a cube on their own just to get an official average.
> 
> Why don't we just let slow solvers use cheat sheets. In fact, why don't we just allow slow solvers to have someone faster do their solves for them? As long as they don't get world records, who cares, right?


A slap AND a middle finger. Dang.


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## Loiloiloi (Aug 14, 2016)

EMI said:


> Btw, I hope Loiloiloi is just trolling with his example


Aw, I thought it was a pretty nice example of how someone could cheat. I made a list and everything!


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## TheCoolMinxer (Aug 14, 2016)

Matt11111 said:


> Hey, there's an idea.
> 
> Also, I scroll through this thread and I realize that taking part in debates will get you a ton of likes. Wow.


Or be part of the older cubers discussions, where you get like 3-5 likes per post lol


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## AlexMaass (Aug 14, 2016)

interesting thing, I have cochlear implants, you can actually hook them up to FM receivers and receive audio that way, they use it in schools so people can listen to teachers better


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## Daniel Lin (Aug 14, 2016)

Should tattoos be banned for WCA official attempts? what if I want full OLL inscribed on my arm? is that illegal?

"Cheating can always happen but there is no reason to make it easier" 
Tbh if someone really wanted to cheat they probably would have tried it already


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## Loiloiloi (Aug 14, 2016)

Daniel Lin said:


> Should tattoos be banned for WCA official attempts? what if I want full OLL inscribed on my arm? is that illegal?
> 
> "Cheating can always happen but there is no reason to make it easier"
> Tbh if someone really wanted to cheat they probably would have tried it already


https://www.worldcubeassociation.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=388
https://www.worldcubeassociation.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=1053
https://www.worldcubeassociation.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=1231
Even some well known people in the community like Rowe have cheated (although he turned himself in so its not as bad) https://www.speedsolving.com/forum/threads/rowe-hessler-52-27-bld-former-wr-disqualified.39436/


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## Matt11111 (Aug 14, 2016)

TheCoolMinxer said:


> Or be part of the older cubers discussions, where you get like 3-5 likes per post lol


I'm 13, sooo... Teenage Cubers discussion, anyone?



Daniel Lin said:


> Should tattoos be banned for WCA official attempts? what if I want full OLL inscribed on my arm? is that illegal?


Again, theoretical minority.


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## Ksh13 (Aug 14, 2016)

So if you look at the arguments for the two sides here, the side that wants to allow it claims it helps some people deal with nerves. That's it. Meanwhile a lot of reasons against this and possible situations that can arise if this is allowed have been brought up. I really feel like there just isn't enough of a reason to risk it. While no one probably will cheat their way to WR single communicating with earbuds or whatever, there will most likely arise some situations that will be very sketchy at least, and I don't really feel like just helping some people control their nerves a bit is good enough of a reasoning to allow it.


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## JustinTimeCuber (Aug 14, 2016)

I vote no. Obvious loopholes are obvious.


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## newtonbase (Aug 14, 2016)

AlexMaass said:


> interesting thing, I have cochlear implants, you can actually hook them up to FM receivers and receive audio that way, they use it in schools so people can listen to teachers better


I had no idea that they could do that. I suppose it makes sense given what luxury items like mobile phones can do.


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## goodatthis (Aug 14, 2016)

I haven't read all of this thread so my point may have been repeated (and I'm sure it has) but I think it may be necessary to apply a little bit of legal philosophy to this.

Any governing body like a government or the WCA has to make sure their laws or rules do not give the potential for cheating to occur, even if a proposed exception to a law is better on balance. Even the slightest potential for loopholes to be found and cheating to occur is enough to make such a proposal illegitimate. For example, when it comes to standardized testing like the SAT, they require photo IDs because although the chances of people impersonating others is small in comparison to the nuisance it would be to require kids to bring IDs + potentially turn them away for not having them, the integrity of the test has the potential to be compromised and there seems to be no other way to ensure that the person who is getting a specific score sat in that testing room and took the test. So in the case of the WCA, I think we can all agree that the integrity of records or solve times are probably the most important thing (especially when we compare it to the marginal benefit of the comfort of listening to music), and even a slight potential for there to be cheating should be enough to reject it.

So now, I'll give a bunch of ways people could cheat, all of them unlikely to result in a record but all reasons nonetheless for how people could cheat, and potentially get good at:

-people talking about scrambles through the earphones (this would make the problem of talking about scrambles less able to be regulated and more real-time)
-outside help (i.e. telling someone a pair is in the back that they can't see)
-saying algs/their recognition
-you can never verify what exactly the person is playing through their headphones

In the end, we should compare it to the rule that states that competitors cannot have the screens of camera equipment facing them. It obviously can create an advantage, despite how small, that could be practiced enough that someone could exploit it, while at the same time providing a marginal benefit to the solver by allowing them to ensure their cube is in frame, much like the benefit you get by listening to music.

EDIT: just want to respond to the arguments that talk about how there are other things that could give people advantages such as tattoos or cochlear implants: a) those things are not controllable whereas with allowing audio equipment it is, b) you can't just exclude a decent amount of people from competing solely because of those things, and c) there's only a slight benefit from listening to music, whereas getting rid of those other things would require excluding competitors altogether, which in the end is worse


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## XTowncuber (Aug 15, 2016)

Dene said:


> mmhmm, I heard the latest version of the regs is just gonna scrap everything that's there, and will instead say "as long as XTowncuber doesn't care it's ok"


Really? Sweeeeet.


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## Matt11111 (Aug 15, 2016)

XTowncuber said:


> Really? Sweeeeet.


The Drew Brads rules. Coming in 2017.

Hoooh boy, what am I getting myself into?


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## PenguinsDontFly (Aug 15, 2016)

XTowncuber said:


> Really? Sweeeeet.


That's a perfect Dene-esque response to a Dene post. Fight fire with fire, cubes with faster cubes, and dene with dene! 

On topic: I think the idea someone mentioned about having music playing out loud from speakers is a great idea. The annoying cubing sounds would be replaced with music, and everyone would be more relaxed and I think it would make for a more fun experience overall.


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## Matt11111 (Aug 15, 2016)

PenguinsDontFly said:


> That's a perfect Dene-esque response to a Dene post. Fight fire with fire, cubes with faster cubes, and dene with dene!
> 
> On topic: I think the idea someone mentioned about having music playing out loud from speakers is a great idea. The annoying cubing sounds would be replaced with music, and everyone would be more relaxed and I think it would make for a more fun experience overall.


I said it sarcastically, but someone else said that the organizer of the competitions he goes to plays music at the comps.


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## Umm Roux? (Aug 15, 2016)

PenguinsDontFly said:


> That's a perfect Dene-esque response to a Dene post. Fight fire with fire, cubes with faster cubes, and dene with dene!
> 
> On topic: I think the idea someone mentioned about having music playing out loud from speakers is a great idea. The annoying cubing sounds would be replaced with music, and everyone would be more relaxed and I think it would make for a more fun experience overall.


Blasting heavy metal music during 5BLD would be hilarious. Just imagine their frustration.


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## Matt11111 (Aug 15, 2016)

Umm Roux? said:


> Blasting heavy metal music during 5BLD would be hilarious. Just imagine their frustration.


Or even better. Multiblind with Maskow, Mark Boyanowski, Kaijun Lin, and Gianfranco Huanqui all in attendance.


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## Daniel Lin (Aug 15, 2016)

PenguinsDontFly said:


> On topic: I think the idea someone mentioned about having music playing out loud from speakers is a great idea. The annoying cubing sounds would be replaced with music, and everyone would be more relaxed and I think it would make for a more fun experience overall.


I actually like the sound of cubes turning. 
Also, what if someone decides to play really annoying music? That would be kind of distracting



Matt11111 said:


> Or even better. Multiblind with Maskow, Mark Boyanowski, Kaijun Lin, and Gianfranco Huanqui all in attendance.


they all use earmuffs


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## Matt11111 (Aug 15, 2016)

Daniel Lin said:


> they all use earmuffs


Never mind.


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## PenguinsDontFly (Aug 15, 2016)

Daniel Lin said:


> I actually like the sound of cubes turning.
> Also, what if someone decides to play really annoying music? That would be kind of distracting
> 
> 
> they all use earmuffs


Im pretty sure an organiser would be in charge of music, and I think everyone would be fine with listening to pop or something. I prefer rap, but I would honestly listen to anything as long as it's music because it would help.


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## SolveThatCube (Aug 15, 2016)

Daniel Lin said:


> they all use earmuffs


Nothin can keep out heavy metal mate.


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## Yetiowin (Aug 15, 2016)

Daniel Lin said:


> Should tattoos be banned for WCA official attempts? what if I want full OLL inscribed on my arm? is that illegal?


It's much easier to notice someone with algs on their arm than someone playing algs on their headphones.


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## Dene (Aug 15, 2016)

Aaaah I should totally get a loud speaker for ausnats and pump out Britney Spears all weekend.


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## Ben Wak (Aug 16, 2016)

Y


Dene said:


> Aaaah I should totally get a loud speaker for ausnats and pump out Britney Spears all weekend.



YES DENE


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## AlexMaass (Aug 16, 2016)

playing this during fmc at my comp:


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## Matt11111 (Aug 16, 2016)

AlexMaass said:


> playing this during fmc at my comp:


Not even going to bother destroying my ears, thanks. Good luck to whoever has to yell "5 MINUTES" over whatever wonderfulness lies behind that video.


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## AlexMaass (Aug 16, 2016)

Matt11111 said:


> Not even going to bother destroying my ears, thanks. Good luck to whoever has to yell "5 MINUTES" over whatever wonderfulness lies behind that video.


good thing my ears were already destroyed


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## Matt11111 (Aug 16, 2016)

AlexMaass said:


> good thing my ears were already destroyed


I like my ears, thankyouverymuch.


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## DGCubes (Aug 16, 2016)

AlexMaass said:


> playing this during fmc at my comp:



Please play during 4bld for everyone but me kthanks


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## goodatthis (Aug 16, 2016)

AlexMaass said:


> playing this during fmc at my comp:


I'm scared to click on that


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## PenguinsDontFly (Aug 16, 2016)

goodatthis said:


> I'm scared to click on that


Me too. I was about to say something like "I'm happy that music choice would be up to responsible and considerate people like organisers or delegates", but then I realised that Alex organised a comp.


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## Matt11111 (Aug 16, 2016)

DGCubes said:


> Please play during 4bld for everyone but me kthanks


How to win a rubix cube tournament 101. 

...


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## Tycubing (Aug 16, 2016)

Matt11111 said:


> How to win a rubix cube tournament 101.
> 
> ...


Yes, but you also have to use the ColorfulPockets Version of Winter Variation


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