# [Help Thread] Blindfolded discussion and help



## Jhong253 (Aug 17, 2008)

Hi everybody,

I've been trying to learn Blindfold solving, and I did read couple online tutorials (One from cubefreak.net for example). The problem is, I have no idea what the tutorials are talking about and I haven't been able to learn anything so far. 

How should I start off?


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## trying-to-speedcube... (Aug 24, 2008)

I started off with just learning one step, edge orientation, and just do it with my eyes open and get a feeling for the setup moves. Then do the same step with your eyes closed and open them only if completely necessary. Next try the step blindfolded.

Do the same for all steps, then try doing it completely blindfolded, or do orientation blindfolded, then memorize permutation and do that blindfolded. I had my first successful BLD solve in 3 days that way.

Good Luck!


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## xyborgcubinots (Aug 24, 2008)

try to understand it step by step...dont give up to learn bld....have fun gudluck!!


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## rjohnson_8ball (Aug 31, 2008)

I am a beginner with BLD too, but I did not have much trouble starting. I began with Macky's 3 cycle method. The stages to solving can be practiced entirely separate, until you feel comfortable with each. Just practice with your eyes closed, or maybe with your hands under a table.

I started with edge flipping, memorizing the basic 2 flip and 4 flip. I gave myself some easy cases for practice, then moved up until I could locate and memorize all edges which needed flipping, and flip them all blindfolded.

Next I practiced edge 3 cycling. (I switched my "U" perm from the way that uses M slice to the way that uses only R and U turns. I am less likely to get confused with cube orientation, I believe.) Eventually, I got to where I could cycle (1, 2,3, 4,5, 6,7, 8,9, 10,11) blindfolded, then undo it (1, 11,10, 9,8, 7,6, 5,4, 3,2) blindfolded. I also practiced swapping 2 random pairs of edges.

Next, I practiced corner orienting. After that corner cycling. (Remember to avoid quarter turns on F,B,L,R faces during setup moves.) Lastly, I practiced parity problems blindfolded, like J or T or F or R, to swap 2 edges and 2 corners.

I will soon be ready to memorize the entire cube, then solve it. I just need the time and courage.

UPDATE: I have done at least 9 successful blindfold solves as of now, Oct 7, 08.


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## Rubixcubematt (Sep 4, 2008)

i learnt bld by starting with a 2x2 blindfolded. these two videos by lance are really good and help explain what to do and how to do it, then i just learnt how to do edges, which is easy to understand once u learn corners. 






[youtube]iCo-htZ_c0M&feature=related[/youtube]


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## Boopyman (Sep 15, 2008)

Check this video out, it helped me a lot.
http://www.speedsolving.com/forum/showthread.php?p=85012#post85012


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## soup of kings (Sep 25, 2008)

*Help me to learn blind cubing for the first time, please!*

So I can solve a cube regularly in about a minute, and I want to try blindfold solving, but I have a problem. I've been looking for tips on the internet, but my main problem is memorization; I've been using a number system to remember the edge orientation but I can't get any farther because my short-term memory seems to be crap. Obviously I need a better system, but everything I've seen online either glosses over memorization or goes in-depth, but is too complicated for me. So I figure I need to actually be able to communicate with one or more people who could help me past this particular sticking point, i.e. let them know when I don't understand something, when I need specific help, etc. Would anyone be willing to put up with that...?


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## waffle=ijm (Sep 26, 2008)

Please read the sticky on each page before posting and please use the search function.


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## soup of kings (Sep 26, 2008)

Which, like I said, I read and didn't understand. I guess I'm just some sort of idiot, then.

[EDIT] Although, if that's as simple as it gets, let me know so I can just give up now, because I can barely understand any of it, much less relate it to solving a Rubik's Cube.


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## ThePizzaGuy92 (Sep 26, 2008)

ANYONE can solve a cube blindfolded, you just have to TRY, not just read a little and then ask us for the easy way out. theres TONS of method in there, read around


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## soup of kings (Sep 26, 2008)

> ANYONE can solve a cube blindfolded, you just have to TRY, not just read a little and then ask us for the easy way out. theres TONS of method in there, read around


I've been trying for some time now (I already told you I can orient the edges, but I'm stuck there), I'm not trying to beg for an easy way out, and I don't understand the methods you're talking about. This is why I asked if anyone could help me more, because I don't personally know anyone better than myself at this sort of thing. Now I just feel like an idiot because I still can't figure it out when it's supposed to be so easy.


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## shelley (Sep 26, 2008)

It's not easy. You have to work at it and that's not something someone can hold your hand through.

If you have specific questions we'll be happy to help you. But sitting down and really working through things is something you'll have to do on your own.


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## TimMc (Sep 26, 2008)

Try find some videos. You might be more of a visual learner 

Tim.


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## soup of kings (Sep 26, 2008)

> Try find some videos. You might be more of a visual learner



That's actually kinda helpful. I finally found one that might help me (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xT2UBYhX5uM&feature=user) and I scanned the bit on memorization, and it helped a lot more than the stuff I've been reading. I'm going to watch that whole tutorial tomorrow and see if I can't just make something up that helps somehow...I dunno. I'll report back.


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## waffle=ijm (Sep 26, 2008)

that's a good video. badmephisto knows what he's saying. even i admit that that video would have helped me learning BLD or overall classic pochmann.


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## rjohnson_8ball (Sep 26, 2008)

Soup! I am 53 years old and started BLD just a month or so ago. You can do it. What I did was read the "3OP" method at cubefreak.net. The Classic Pochmann or M2 Pochmann might be better, but I personally thought the 3OP was easiest for me to learn. What I do is train for each stage. Scramble a cube and try to remember how edges need to be flipped. (I use hexadecimal to memo). Solve, then memo the corner orientations. I use A for anticlockwise, B for normal, C for clockwise, and touch the white/yellow stickers to help me remember. Solve, then look at corner cycles and solve. Then look at edge cycles and solve. After you can do one stage, try to do 2 stages, like both edge and corner orientations. Or corner orientations and corner cycling. I find my best memo happens in the morning after sleeping. Eventually you will be able to memo all the orientations and cycles, even if it takes you 30 minutes to memorize.


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## nitrocan (Sep 26, 2008)

Memorise the orientations visually (maybe some A and C at the corners), then numbers at corners and letters at edges. Then after some time, it is so easy.
I started blind cubing about 2 months ago, now I can memorise the whole thing in about 1:00 - 1:30. (Thats probably because I switched to M2).
Rafal Guzewicz on the other hand, can memorise ridiculously fast  (15 sec memo on his WR solve)


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## soup of kings (Sep 27, 2008)

Ugh. BadMephisto's tutorial is helping a bit, but I keep forgetting my setup moves in the middle of an algorithm. Bummer.


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## cookingfat (Oct 8, 2008)

Hi soup of kings. Today I decided to try and learn BLD solving and I'm finding it really interesting. I didn't want to make another thread so I'm using yours, as it is related. 

I'm learning the Pochmann method using badmephisto's tutorial video. 

So far, I've learned to solve the whole cube (looking) using the method. 

Then I wrote down the order of the edges that need to be moved and attempted to solve the edges of the cube underneath a blanket but reading the notes. First attempt was a success, a cross on every side.

Then I have made a list of two letter words so I can memorize the stickers. I've learnt two for each edge, eg. BR = Brick and RB = Robot, obviously there are many different methods, but I think this will work best for me. I don't plan to do big cubes either.

Then I scrambled the cube and actually managed to solve all the edges completely blind. This is on my first day of trying. I can't wait to do my first successful solve, I've just gotta work out the corners now. Loving BLD.


actually I have a question. It says that #items = (#wrong cubies) + (#cycles) - 2. The last attempt at edges there were all 12 wrong cubies, the buffer piece came right at the end, so I didn't have to break into a new cycle but I only had 11 items to remember so the formula didn't work, however all the pieces ended up right. How is this? Does it mean that right at the end I break into a new cycle, so there are technically 2 cycles?


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## joey (Oct 8, 2008)

#items = (#wrong cubies) + (#cycles) - 2
#items = 12 + 1 - 2
#items = 11


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## cookingfat (Oct 8, 2008)

joey said:


> #items = (#wrong cubies) + (#cycles) - 2
> #items = 12 + 1 - 2
> #items = 11



oh yeah, please excuse my stupidness, lol. 

Using this method is it usually easier to do the corners or edges first?


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## fanwuq (Oct 8, 2008)

cookingfat said:


> joey said:
> 
> 
> > #items = (#wrong cubies) + (#cycles) - 2
> ...



No difference. I do corners first, then edges, then go back to correct parity and finish last corner.


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## fcwy1 (Oct 8, 2008)

i have been trying to learn it for months and i'm still stuck too.


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## cookingfat (Oct 8, 2008)

I did my first successful solve today, I am so pleased having only learnt it yesterday afternoon. 

I admit I had to write down the order of pieces first, but I made my story, put on the blindfold (scarf) and did the solve, took off the blindfold and voila, The cube was solved! It's a very good feeling when you do it for the first time. 

I need to thank Stefan Pochmann for his method and badmephisto for his excellent video tutorial.


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## joey (Oct 8, 2008)

*Stefan

But congratulations!


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## cookingfat (Oct 8, 2008)

joey said:


> *Stefan
> 
> But congratulations!



thanks, I changed it now. It was my first attempt too, so I'm pretty stoked about it. This is more fun than trying to get a sub-30


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## joey (Oct 8, 2008)

Did you time it? 

Where in sheffield are you? I went to Sheffield on Sunday, for the Hallam Open day, I should have come and cubed with you!


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## cookingfat (Oct 8, 2008)

mm, I didn't time it, I just wanted to actually do it at first. 

I tried another scramble and failed it, ended up with f2l and anti-sune oll. My story was definately correct, so I must have made an execution mistake. 

I will time my next attempt, but it will probably be very long. 

I'll pm you


edit - I timed my 3rd attempt, 25:52.91 about 18 minutes memo, and I failed with 2 flipped edges.

I did a successful solve in front of a friend, since then I've failed, mainly with 2 or 3 edges or corners not solved. 

I nearly did a 12 minute solve just then, but realised after I had forgotten about the ogre playing with the yoyo before optimus prime burst through the wall and hit him. maybe I should have taken my yoyo from my pocket and violently strangled the ogre with it instead.


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## rjohnson_8ball (Oct 10, 2008)

Yay cookingfat! Isn't it just so cool when you find out that you totally solved it? There seems to be so much room for mistakes to happen, it is so amazing when it all works. My first solve made me happy all week. You can watch the jaw drop on some people when you tell people what you can do. (Some people have no clue, and could care less. It's like me explaining my excitement to my cat.) I use 3OP, but I guess I should try M2.


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## cookingfat (Oct 11, 2008)

yeah it's the best feeling ever solving it for the first time. 

I've just had another success this morning, total time - 15:27.72. (10:30 inspection)

I'm still using pen and paper though to write down the order of pieces so I can make my story, any tips on how to ditch the pen and paper?

I looked into M2 last night, it looks quicker, but the setup moves seem slightly longer and confusing


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## joey (Oct 11, 2008)

cookingfat said:


> yeah it's the best feeling ever solving it for the first time.
> 
> I've just had another success this morning, total time - 15:27.72. (10:30 inspection)
> 
> ...



There is no 'trick' to ditching the pen and paper. You just have to make the story up as you go along, and keep going over it.

The setups for M2 are about the same length, and equally as confusing. The only 'hard' thing about M2 is flipped M-pieces and odd slices.


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## cookingfat (Oct 11, 2008)

making up the story as I go along doesn't sound too hard really, the main reason I need pen and paper is to work out which slots are still unsolved when you have to change cycles and making sure I have the right number of moves to remember (using the equation) and whether I need a parity fix. would it help to try and keep a finger on the solved pieces as I'm making my story?

I'm not sure about M2 then, I like the pochmann way because the setup moves are usually 1 or 2 moves and the perms are really quick to do.


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## Ville Seppänen (Oct 11, 2008)

cookingfat said:


> would it help to try and keep a finger on the solved pieces as I'm making my story?



Yes it would. That's what I do for big cube centers (and still get confused ). After a few solves I'm sure you don't need to do that, but it will probably help now.


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## cookingfat (Oct 13, 2008)

thanks, I will try that, but I seem to run out of fingers, lol. 

another question, lets say I need to do this - corners > parity fix > edges

what if I do the corners and go straight into the edges, then realise that I forgot to do parity? Is there a way out of this, or will I always fail? Can I do it at the end?


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## Stefan (Oct 13, 2008)

cookingfat said:


> another question, lets say I need to do this - corners > parity fix > edges
> 
> what if I do the corners and go straight into the edges, then realise that I forgot to do parity? Is there a way out of this, or will I always fail? Can I do it at the end?



Now would be the perfect time to start thinking.


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## cookingfat (Oct 13, 2008)

ok, so you're saying just practice until I don't forget then? Makes sense I suppose, we all have to learn from mistakes. 

In that case I need to think of something better that will make me remember whether or not to do parity.


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## joey (Oct 13, 2008)

No, he wasn't saying just practise until you don't forget. Everyone forgets sometimes. He is saying think about the anwser to your question, think wether you can fix it later or not. (Or atleast I hope he is saying that, it's my interpretation!)


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## cookingfat (Oct 13, 2008)

I've thought about it and came up with this (I should have actually thought about it first) if I don't do the parity after the corners, then the space I think I need to solve first won't actually be there (as it will be swapped with another edge), so all the edges will be wrong. Is that right?

also, if the first edge piece is already the buffer edge, does this count as an extra cycle (even though i've not reallystarted the edges)?



edit - more successes - 9:42 and a 10:22 (still using notes)


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## Stefan (Oct 13, 2008)

Oh my god. Joey can read minds.

And no, not all edges will be wrong (unless you made other mistakes). I'll give you a hint. Exactly two edges and two corners will be wrong. Figure out why, and which.

The answer to your last question depends on what you're counting for, but probably it's "no". If you mean in the context of a formula for how to compute the number of targets, I strongly recommend you try to understand the formula. It's not rocket science.


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## cookingfat (Oct 13, 2008)

I love how you make me think about things instead of just telling me, lol. seriously it helps. I think I got it, after corners if it needs parity fix then 2 edges are wrong (on the U face) and will not be where I remembered them. If I forget parity, then at the end, 2 edges and 2 corners will be wrong, but they could be anywhere. 

and I figured out that you don't count an extra cycle if the first piece is the buffer piece. I'm getting there slowly, remember I've only been doing BLD for a couple of days.

edit - slowly migrating onto not using notes, I nearly did a solve today without notes, but I forgot 2 pieces. Also yesterday, I got to the end of my story when the cube should be solved but something didn't feel right. I realised I had not used the blue/white edge, so I solved the blue, then the white and to my surprise it worked. Also, it's becoming easier to remember which stickers I've solved already.


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## *LukeMayn* (Oct 18, 2008)

I may as well post here since I just learnt pochmann from the same vid as cookingfat (yes I saw your comment )
how do you memo the corners right? cos sometimes I memo them but the the move cw or ccw because of another alg so how am I supposed to predict that?


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## dangitsmatthew (Oct 18, 2008)

I'm not sure what the problem is...? What is "another alg"? No algorithm should move the corners around. (while solving the edges you're swapping two corners back and forth). Are you using the Y and J permutations to swap the corners?


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## *LukeMayn* (Oct 18, 2008)

dangitsmatthew said:


> I'm not sure what the problem is...? What is "another alg"? No algorithm should move the corners around. (while solving the edges you're swapping two corners back and forth). Are you using the Y and J permutations to swap the corners?



I said for corners... and yes I'm doing it the exact same way


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## dangitsmatthew (Oct 18, 2008)

The corners should never move out of position though (except for the two you're swapping during edge solves). So when you solve corners, they should all be in the same position as you memo-ed them and then you solve them by swapping two corners and the same edges all the time. I'm not sure how the corners move...?


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## cookingfat (Oct 18, 2008)

lets say you do edges first. every time you solve an edge, 2 corners are swapped. That means that if you have to remember an odd number of moves for edges, say 11, then the 2 corners will be swapped and will not be how you memorised them. In this case you need to do a parity fix. I do y' Ra y. (This will also swap 2 of your solved edges but don't worry) Then, when you solve the corners (these will also be odd) the 2 edges you swapped with the parity will be solved again. 

in short, if there are an odd number of items to remember for either edges or corners (whichever you do first), you need to do parity in between doing edges and corners. If there are an even number of items to remember, you don't need to do the parity fix.


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## *LukeMayn* (Oct 18, 2008)

cookingfat said:


> lets say you do edges first. every time you solve an edge, 2 corners are swapped. That means that if you have to remember an odd number of moves for edges, say 11, then the 2 corners will be swapped and will not be how you memorised them. In this case you need to do a parity fix. I do y' Ra y. (This will also swap 2 of your solved edges but don't worry) Then, when you solve the corners (these will also be odd) the 2 edges you swapped with the parity will be solved again.
> 
> in short, if there are an odd number of items to remember for either edges or corners (whichever you do first), you need to do parity in between doing edges and corners. If there are an even number of items to remember, you don't need to do the parity fix.



Yes I understand everything fine but when I am doing *THE CORNER STAGE* I sometimes rotate a corner while fixing another.
eg. I have1st layer solved.
in the buffer postion I have BO (body odour(lol)) and it needs to go to where GY is. I do the correct setup+execution and... BAM!!! GY turned into YG D: help...


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## tim (Oct 18, 2008)

*LukeMayn* said:


> Yes I understand everything fine but when I am doing *THE CORNER STAGE* I sometimes rotate a corner while fixing another.
> eg. I have1st layer solved.
> in the buffer postion I have BO (body odour(lol)) and it needs to go to where GY is. I do the correct setup+execution and... BAM!!! GY turned into YG D: help...



No, you haven't done the right setup move.


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## *LukeMayn* (Oct 18, 2008)

tim said:


> *LukeMayn* said:
> 
> 
> > Yes I understand everything fine but when I am doing *THE CORNER STAGE* I sometimes rotate a corner while fixing another.
> ...



but it fixed the piece that I was meaning to fix...


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## dangitsmatthew (Oct 19, 2008)

Are you sure you're targeting the right sticker? If you know the sticker you're targeting, you'll know the orientation of the next sticker. Like check where the Blue-Orange needs to go and then in the place of the Blue sticker and the Orange sticker right now is what you need to memorise for the next piece.


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## Stefan (Oct 19, 2008)

Please post the actual "setup+execution" moves for your example.


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## Parity (Dec 1, 2009)

*BLD memo help?*

Ok so I was looking in the BLD accomplisment thread, and I saw Blah. and he memorized solves like this.

1. PVBMJW KDRGF - a pervert bombed a Jew, a kid in rags farted
2. RVONBT HJELC - reverend on a boat, then it got hijacked by an elc (I don't know what an elc is, but I was kinda picturing an elf...)

like pervert is pv how would he memo that? and bombed is bm idk how he memos like that.


Is there something I am missing how he memos like that?


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## michaellahti (Dec 1, 2009)

It's a story.


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## Parity (Dec 1, 2009)

Yeah but 2 letters in a word that is what I don't get.


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## cmhardw (Dec 1, 2009)

Check out here for lots more info about memory methods.

Also there is a thread on this very forum dedicated to this.

Chris


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## Sakarie (Dec 1, 2009)

I suggest that you take a look at the Loci-method.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Method_of_loci


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## richardzhang (Jan 14, 2010)

*BLD help?*

I average 17 seconds and i still cant get a successful BLD ive tried learning Old Pochmann but i relized that i cannot memorize all the steps. So what is the memory method i should use beacause i tend to forget memorised leading to unsuccessful BLD solves. And i used badmephisto's tutorial.

Thanks in advance


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## Zane_C (Jan 14, 2010)

Try using a PAO system:
-Give every sticker/position a person, action and object.
-Memorise *person* of [target 1], memorise *action* of [target 2], then memorise *object* of [target 3]
- Then just repeat that until you go through all targets.
-I use visual memory to work out where the permuted but wrongly flipped edges and corners are.

I Hope that was of assistance


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## yoruichi (Jan 14, 2010)

that PAO chyt is mad complicado
easier way is to just letter them stickers and remember those
numbers are good too somehow if ur a math guy


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## Zane_C (Jan 14, 2010)

yoruichi said:


> that PAO chyt is mad complicado
> easier way is to just letter them stickers and remember those
> numbers are good too somehow if ur a math guy



No, not really, you can use the same PAO's for corners and edges, so you really just have to memorise 22 people that have an action and object.
I gave each sticker/position a letter then gave each letter a person starting with that letter.


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## yoruichi (Jan 14, 2010)

o... thats smart


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## Zane_C (Jan 14, 2010)

yoruichi said:


> o... thats smart


Thanks, but when I ran into letters where I couldn't find anyone I just ignored the letter.
[Edit] Just had a look at your WCA profile


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## TheMachanga (Jan 14, 2010)

I also need help. How do I know when to pieces are switched at the end?


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## Zane_C (Jan 14, 2010)

Just use your visual memory. if you're talking about fixing the parity, you do it when your've switched the edges or corners an odd number of times.


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## KConny (Jan 15, 2010)

Zane_C said:


> [Edit] Just had a look at your WCA profile


Haha, this made me laugh. It was quite obvious that you didn't knew he Alex was. And his silly English combined with his ability to make everything sound so easy doesn't make him look like an expert.


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## Zane_C (Jan 15, 2010)

KConny said:


> Zane_C said:
> 
> 
> > [Edit] Just had a look at your WCA profile
> ...


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## blah (Jan 15, 2010)

Zane_C said:


> Try using a PAO system:
> -Give every sticker/position a person, action and object.
> -Memorise *person* of [target 1], memorise *action* of [target 2], then memorise *object* of [target 3]
> - Then just repeat that until you go through all targets.
> ...


That's a REALLY bad system for a BLD single. If you want to get better than 4:58, I suggest you get a new memo system


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## Zane_C (Jan 15, 2010)

blah said:


> Zane_C said:
> 
> 
> > Try using a PAO system:
> ...



What do you suggest I try? What method do you use?


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## KConny (Jan 15, 2010)

Zane_C said:


> KConny said:
> 
> 
> > Zane_C said:
> ...



Point being? I thought I wrote 'who', not 'he'.

And to add something to the real discussion. I use Person, Action/Object and I've got avg of 5 at 1:30 with M2 and Old P. So the system isn't crap for singles.


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## Zane_C (Jan 15, 2010)

cool, I would still like to see what blah uses.


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## KConny (Jan 15, 2010)

I'd still like to see why you quoted me and just put a part of my post in bold.


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## Zane_C (Jan 15, 2010)

KConny said:


> I'd still like to see why you quoted me and just put a part of my post in bold.



I only did it becuase you said something about silly english and so I made your sentence bold that didn't make sense. Just forget it.


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## powershotman (Jan 16, 2010)

KConny said:


> Zane_C said:
> 
> 
> > KConny said:
> ...


err,do you use the pao for corners too ?
i find my corners memo is extremely slow 
i don't have a system to memo corners,just simply tapping
but it tooks too much time for me ..


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## Parity (Feb 25, 2010)

*BLD edge help?*

Hello everyone I need help with a BLD issue obviously.
So when I am doing edges or corners I may get a edge or corner in it spot to go to.
What do I do?
I can't seem to grasp taking it out and how to remember it?
Can someone link me to a very good video explaining how to memorize it?


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## ben1996123 (Feb 25, 2010)




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## Carson (Feb 25, 2010)

Are you using old/classic Pochman?

If so, just pick an edge or corner that you haven't yet used, and "shoot" to that corner. You will later run into the piece that REALLY goes there and you will shoot to the same piece again. You maybe have to do this multiple times with both corners and edges.


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## rubiknewbie (Feb 25, 2010)

Parity said:


> Hello everyone I need help with a BLD issue obviously.
> So when I am doing edges or corners I may get a edge or corner in it spot to go to.
> What do I do?
> I can't seem to grasp taking it out and how to remember it?
> Can someone link me to a very good video explaining how to memorize it?



If you mean the edge or corner is already in it's right position but flipped wrongly, there are 2 ways:

1. The troublesome method is to shoot 2 times: once to one of its sticker then the 2nd time to its other sticker in that position. Like LF then FL.

2. The better method is to learn some algorithms to flip edges or corners like M' U' M' U' M' U' M' U2' M' U' M' U' M' U' M' for edges or R U R' U' R U R' U' L' U R U' R' U R U' R' L for corners.

You can get good blindfold videos from Eric Limeback or bldmaster on youtube.


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## Alextk (Apr 8, 2010)

*help with learning BLD*

hey guys can you post some nice blindfold tutorials that you've learned from which involves old pochman / pochmann :=)


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## Sakarie (Apr 9, 2010)

This is my favorite site for guides: http://tinyurl.com/ye7bdct

Honestly, some day you have to learn that you (as the swedish saying is) won't get everything served on silverplates!


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## Neo63 (Apr 9, 2010)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ncpkVvIEcKc

This

and next time, please use the search function, wiki, or ask in the one answer question thread


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## ben1996123 (Apr 9, 2010)




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## Joël (Apr 9, 2010)

Here's mine:

http://www.solvethecube.110mb.com/blindfold.html


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## Skullush (May 24, 2010)

*3x3x3 BLD Help?*

Alright, so I watched badmephisto's tutorial a while ago and I feel like I'm comfortable enough with the method and algorithms and such. When I try and solve it, though, usually when I look at the cube I did something wrong, even though I feel like I did everything right. I have had a couple of successes, but often times there's a few corners or edges orientated incorrectly and sometimes it's all wrong.

I'm just wondering if my successes will increase the more I attempt to solve, or if there's a common problem that people might have when trying BLD for the first time.


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## amostay2004 (May 24, 2010)

It's totally normal to keep DNFing when you start out with BLD..it just takes more practice. 

But just to make sure you fully understand the method you're using, I'd advise you to write down your memo and solve the cube sighted according to your memo. If you can get like 10 successes in a row then it's probably just your execution or memo causing you to DNF. If you do not get constant successes with sighted solves, check your memo and find out what mistakes did you do and learn from them.


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## Skullush (May 24, 2010)

amostay2004 said:


> It's totally normal to keep DNFing when you start out with BLD..it just takes more practice.
> 
> But just to make sure you fully understand the method you're using, I'd advise you to write down your memo and solve the cube sighted according to your memo. If you can get like 10 successes in a row then it's probably just your execution or memo causing you to DNF. If you do not get constant successes with sighted solves, check your memo and find out what mistakes did you do and learn from them.



That's what I thought. I have tried that once, so I'll try it out a few more times and see how it goes.


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## cincyaviation (May 24, 2010)

please use the search function or look around at least a little before making a thread, there is a thread with almost the exact same title that was last posted in just yesterday, we don't need 2 active threads for every topic.


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## Skullush (May 24, 2010)

cincyaviation said:


> please use the search function or look around at least a little before making a thread, there is a thread with almost the exact same title that was last posted in just yesterday, we don't need 2 active threads for every topic.



Sorry? This was just a different question so that's why I made a new thread.


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## cincyaviation (May 24, 2010)

Skullush said:


> cincyaviation said:
> 
> 
> > please use the search function or look around at least a little before making a thread, there is a thread with almost the exact same title that was last posted in just yesterday, we don't need 2 active threads for every topic.
> ...



same generic title though...


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## Skullush (May 24, 2010)

Didn't know what to call it. =/


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## 04mucklowd (May 24, 2010)

amostay2004 said:


> it's probably just your execution or memo causing you to DNF



Well its not going to be anything else...


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## riffz (May 24, 2010)

04mucklowd said:


> amostay2004 said:
> 
> 
> > it's probably just your execution or memo causing you to DNF
> ...



lol.


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## puzzlemaster (May 24, 2010)

amostay2004 said:


> It's totally normal to keep DNFing when you start out with BLD..it just takes more practice.
> 
> But just to make sure you fully understand the method you're using, I'd advise you to write down your memo and solve the cube sighted according to your memo. If you can get like 10 successes in a row *then it's probably just your execution or memo causing you to DNF.* If you do not get constant successes with sighted solves, check your memo and find out what mistakes did you do and learn from them.



As opposed to what?


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## amostay2004 (May 24, 2010)

As opposed to him not understanding his BLD method yet cause he apparently just started, and he said that he had solves where he felt he did everything correctly, but still ended up with a DNF. 

So besides execution and memo, he might not fully understand the concept of breaking into new cycles, or parity, etc.

edit: wrong word just now


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## puzzlemaster (May 24, 2010)

amostay2004 said:


> As opposed to him not understanding his BLD method yet cause he apparently just started, and he said that he had solves where *he felt he did everything incorrectly*, but still ended up with a DNF.
> 
> So besides execution and memo, he might not fully understand the concept of breaking into new cycles, or parity, etc.



Wouldn't that result in a DNF every time?  haha i'm jk. I understand what you mean.


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## reyrey (May 23, 2011)

*BLD Help*

I didn't know if this should be here or in the BLD section (But since this is a questions section I decided to try my luck here)

I recently decided to start learning BLD.

I have a few questions:

1. How do I memorize the pieces? (Even memo-ing what R U R' U' looks like isn't easy for me at the moment)
2. Which method should I use?

Thanks in advance


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## hic0057 (May 23, 2011)

One answer blind question thread next time.

1. Heaps of way to Memories peaces. For beginner I recompensed making story with words related to the colour on the peace. Example: If there is a Blue-Orange piece I remember i eithert as Boy/Ballon/Bow etc 
2. Old Pochman 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xT2UBYhX5uM
http://www.speedsolving.com/wiki/index.php/Old_Pochmann


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## reyrey (May 23, 2011)

Okay, didn't know it belonged there.

Are there any other ways?


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## Cubenovice (May 23, 2011)

reyrey said:


> 1. How do I memorize the pieces? (Even memo-ing what R U R' U' looks like isn't easy for me at the moment)
> 2. Which method should I use?
> 
> Thanks in advance



1: You don’t have to memorize the effect of all your CFOP algs for BLD.
In BLD you will use algs that only affect a small part of the cube (the pieces that you want to move and sometimes some extra)
Example: commutators cycle 3 pieces, T-perm swaps two edges and two corners.
Take a solved cube: 
-	perform a T-perm watch how two edges and two corners have been swapped
-	now do an L2 (set up move)
-	perform T-perm again
-	L2 again (undo set up move)
-	Voila! You have moved three edges and your corners are restored

Typical memo methods:
-	Assign a letter, word or “image” to each sticker on the cube = create your own you lettering-scheme, then memo a story or sentences based on the cycles of the stickers
-	Visual
-	Tapping stickers with your fingertip, creating a path around the cube that you memorize
-	
Examples of lettering scheme:
-	Take a “random” corner sticker as A and go clockwise around the cubie or face and assign letters to all stickers. Make sure the lettering patterns makes sense to you. I have labeled clockwise around cubies so I have ABC stickers on the same corner.
-	During memo you make words, sentences, stories with these letters. You can make them up during memo or you can create a fixed list of words where each word holds two letters. (A typical Letter Pair List has 500+ words)
-	
-	Words per sticker: example for Orange – Green cubie; 
-	Orange sticker is Carrot (Orange with a little green)
-	Green sticker is Parrot (Green bird, orange beak)
-	Both words describe something green-orange (so you know which edge it is), the dominant color is the specific sticker on that edge.
-	Make a sentence or story with these words (each word has only one sticker so you will have a longer story to remember)

2: A good method to start is Old Pochmann as it only requires three PLL algs to get started: T, Y and R-perm
Lateron you may add more algs to reduce the number of set up moves required.
This method has a high movecount but is still capable of sub 2 solves.

The best Old Pochmann tutorial in my opinion: 
Old Pochmann tutorial by Joel van Noort: http://solvethecube.110mb.com/blindfold.html
It also has some extra algs to reduce move count for set up moves.


Other methods:
3OP: first orient pieces, then move to the right position
You solve “pieces”

M2 for edges: where you use an M2 move to cycle edge pieces (requires some new algs and you must be very aware of the pieces that belong in the M slice)
You solve “stickers”

BH: Commutators: place two pieces with a single short alg. Very low move count but not easy to master
You solve “stickers”

Check out the BLD sub forum for a large amount of info on memo and execution methods.


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## samchoochiu (Dec 1, 2011)

*BLD new method help*

I doing a random BLD method taught by seerusgod on youtube. I heard its the easiest tutorial out there. 
1. orient corners
2. Permute corners.
3. solve edges
thats the gist of this method but I noticed that I need to memorize like 25 sequences during inspection. I am having a hard time with memorizing.
I understand the method and can do it while writing down on a paper and just solve it without looking at the cube. But I can never do it memorized. I need a new method I do not think I will get anywhere with this method. 
I see people be able to sub 8 min within the first day or 2. I don't I can do that with this method. 
I NEED A NEW METHOD! I am looking at M2/Old Pochmann by eric limback.
But I kinda want an easy easy method that doesn't make my head explode during solving.
thanks


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## MaeLSTRoM (Dec 1, 2011)

So are you having trouble with memorising the sequences that tell you what piece to go to next, because if you are, all methods will have that.
If its more to do with the method, I would reccomend learning full Old Pochmann, because it is very simple, and easy to understand.


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## kinch2002 (Dec 1, 2011)

Unfortunately for you, a 3x3 cube has 20 pieces to solve, so it's unlikely that you'll be able to get away with memorising much less than that (allowing for a couple of buffers). M2/OP is a very common method nowadays, and has the potential to be sub-1 eventually. It's not difficult to learn imo - certainly no more so than a method like yours that does orientation and permutation separately. If you want a really easy method, then Old Pochmann edges as perhaps easier than M2 edges. But they are kinda slow.


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## jms_gears1 (Dec 1, 2011)

kinch2002 said:


> Unfortunately for you, a 3x3 cube has 20 pieces to solve, so it's unlikely that you'll be able to get away with memorising much less than that (allowing for a couple of buffers). M2/OP is a very common method nowadays, and has the potential to be sub-1 eventually. It's not difficult to learn imo - certainly no more so than a method like yours that does orientation and permutation separately. If you want a really easy method, then Old Pochmann edges as perhaps easier than M2 edges. But they are kinda slow.


 If someones going to invest time in learning BLD, they mise well just jump straight into M2. I found it wasnt any harder to understand it then OP


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## Micael (Dec 3, 2011)

M2/R2 or just M2/classic Pochmann.
You will cut the orientation memorisation.


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## RNewms27 (Dec 3, 2011)

I use visual memo (very inefficient) and with only a few solves done before, my time can be around 5 minutes. Execution is purely Old Pochmann. Making letter sequences might be the simplest once you learn it.


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## aaronb (Dec 3, 2011)

It sounds like you are using Old Pochmann for edges and 3OP for corners (what I use). This is one of the easiest methods, and it sounds like you understand it. What you need to look up if a good memorization method. The actual execution method is fine; you need to find a memo method that suites you.

Take a look at this page: http://www.speedsolving.com/wiki/index.php/BLD_Memorization


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## SamKennedy (Dec 3, 2011)

After Christmas I'm going to be doing a little experiment to see how (if) self-hypnosis can help with memorisation, I'll make a thread once I've got something useful to post


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## bgdgyfer (Nov 25, 2012)

*Need help with BLD memory*

I need major help with BLD. I can`t memorize what I did so I am going to ask the professionals about BLD. Is there a begginers way for memorizing setup and cycles? Please HELP!!!!!!


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## Coolster01 (Nov 25, 2012)

bgdgyfer said:


> I need major help with BLD. I can`t memorize what I did so I am going to ask the professionals about BLD. Is there a begginers way for memorizing setup and cycles? Please HELP!!!!!!



You can't memorize your setup moves? If so, just practice doing solves with your eyes open, or even close your eyes when doing the moves, and open after to see what happened. Every setup move should be no more than 4 moves. Also go through every letter and make sure that you have a very efficient setup move. Practice!


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## cubingawsumness (Nov 25, 2012)

Note: I'm very bad at BLD. I've had so far under 5 successes.

However, this seems like good advice:
Setup moves just require practice. Like coolster said, just do it with your eyes open a lot, and eventually it'll become easier.
For memo of the cycles, I use this method for both corners and edges (a letter for each sticker). Memo also becomes easier with practice.


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## ilikecubing (Nov 25, 2012)

bgdgyfer said:


> I need major help with BLD. I can`t memorize what I did so I am going to ask the professionals about BLD. Is there a begginers way for memorizing setup and cycles? Please HELP!!!!!!



There are numerous ways for memorizing.
For setups,I would suggest to look intuitively upon them,you just need to know the target sticker and the simplest way to bring it to the target spot without disturbing the buffer.Else learn algs for setups,they are usually small.
Cycles are something you need to adapt yourself to.Just practice a lot,they might be a pain initially but later you get a habit of them and they become easy.


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## A Leman (Nov 25, 2012)

If you want some advice about very easy memo methods make a single letter image list and use that and/or use sentences with words that start with the letter you are memorizing. These are not the best methods, but they are easy and work. Then you could try to expand to letterpairs and/or PAO.


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## Ollie (Nov 25, 2012)

Memo. Also experiment with things like numbers (including the Major System) and using one-syllable words like these where you can use audio instead.


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## ScottTheCuber (Nov 21, 2013)

*I need help with BLD*

Guys there is a comp coming up called UIUC fall 2013.
I signed up for bld with only have like 2-3 bld solves and im nervous and it takes me 15 to solve it blind
can you guys give me competition TIps to calm down and not to worry im excited but no at the same time.:confused:


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## Ross The Boss (Nov 21, 2013)

Just dont worry. simple as that. who cares if you mess up? i know you always want to do your best, but focusing on it isnt going to make it any easier to do well. just practice a lot and when it comes time to solve, it is the exact same as at home. in all honesty, there will be other competitions so if you get a poor time at this one it isnt the end of the world.


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## Noahaha (Nov 21, 2013)

First of all, do more solves. If you're using decent techniques (letter pairs), then it shouldn't take that much practice for you to get around 5 minutes, or at least sub-10.

Second of all, try to compete exactly like you solve at home. If at home you just start your solve right away without thinking about it, then don't sit there and think about it before your competition solve etc.


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## kcl (Nov 22, 2013)

Ross The Boss said:


> Just dont worry. simple as that. who cares if you mess up? i know you always want to do your best, but focusing on it isnt going to make it any easier to do well. just practice a lot and when it comes time to solve, it is the exact same as at home. in all honesty, there will be other competitions so if you get a poor time at this one it isnt the end of the world.



In addition to this, the best of the best DNF frequently also. Any good BLD solver has plenty of DNF's under their belt. Just relax, and don't fret about it


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## ScottTheCuber (Nov 22, 2013)

Noahaha said:


> First of all, do more solves. If you're using decent techniques (letter pairs), then it shouldn't take that much practice for you to get around 5 minutes, or at least sub-10.
> 
> Second of all, try to compete exactly like you solve at home. If at home you just start your solve right away without thinking about it, then don't sit there and think about it before your competition solve etc.



OMG! NOAH! I cant believe you answered thanks for the help! Its because of your TUT i do BLD! I use your scheme you taught!



Ross The Boss said:


> Just dont worry. simple as that. who cares if you mess up? i know you always want to do your best, but focusing on it isnt going to make it any easier to do well. just practice a lot and when it comes time to solve, it is the exact same as at home. in all honesty, there will be other competitions so if you get a poor time at this one it isnt the end of the world.



Thanks for the tips to you TO!



kclejeune said:


> In addition to this, the best of the best DNF frequently also. Any good BLD solver has plenty of DNF's under their belt. Just relax, and don't fret about it



Thanks to you also also also!



Noahaha said:


> First of all, do more solves. If you're using decent techniques (letter pairs), then it shouldn't take that much practice for you to get around 5 minutes, or at least sub-10.
> 
> Second of all, try to compete exactly like you solve at home. If at home you just start your solve right away without thinking about it, then don't sit there and think about it before your competition solve etc.



Noah if i get a official solve would you watch the video!


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## c4cuber (Apr 13, 2014)

*Help needed for sub 20 BLD execution only*

hey guys. i have been averaging about 35-40 secs just because of slow execution. Noah Arthurs does 10-12 secs memo and executes under 30. so, it proves that he has sub 20 execution  . that's why, tips are needed. that's all. thank you.


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## Coolster01 (Apr 13, 2014)

3-style. 2 pieces at a time. If you already use this then reduce pauses and think ahead


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## Renslay (Apr 13, 2014)

c4cuber said:


> hey guys. i have been averaging about 35-40 secs just because of slow execution. Noah Arthurs does 10-12 secs memo and executes under 30. so, it proves that he has sub 20 execution  . that's why, tips are needed. that's all. thank you.



It would be helpful if you gave more information. Like what method do you use. What is your average execution time. What is the breakdown for edges and corners. And so on. Also a video would be most helpful to determine what is your weak points in execution.


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## c4cuber (Apr 14, 2014)

Renslay said:


> It would be helpful if you gave more information. Like what method do you use. What is your average execution time. What is the breakdown for edges and corners. And so on. Also a video would be most helpful to determine what is your weak points in execution.



i am sorry for not giving many infos. i am using 3 style comms for both corners and edges. i memo for about 10-15 secs. my execution time is 25-30 secs. that's where i am weak. that's all. again sorry because i can't post a video for being in a backward area.


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## c4cuber (Apr 14, 2014)

Coolster01 said:


> 3-style. 2 pieces at a time. If you already use this then reduce pauses and think ahead



i am using comms already


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## josh42732 (Nov 21, 2014)

*How to get faster at memo for bld 3x3?*

Hey this is my first post but I wanted to ask more people how I can memo faster. I have been cubing since April-ish and learned to bld solve in July. I just timed myself last night, and I got a 5:36. I can excecute almost perfectly at my level, use M2/OP, but I would like some practice tips to go from 5 min to <1 min (hopefully!!) and go to a competition. Any help is appreciated!!


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## Jakube (Nov 21, 2014)

josh42732 said:


> Hey this is my first post but I wanted to ask more people how I can memo faster. I have been cubing since April-ish and learned to bld solve in July. I just timed myself last night, and I got a 5:36. I can excecute almost perfectly at my level, use M2/OP, but I would like some practice tips to go from 5 min to <1 min (hopefully!!) and go to a competition. Any help is appreciated!!



What's your memorization method at the moment.


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## tseitsei (Nov 21, 2014)

If you dont use letter pairs already you should start using them right now! 
Then once you just do a lot of solves and get familiar with your letter scheme you should already be able to memo much faster than you can now. You should also make a letter pair list or at least pre made letter pairs for "hard cases" that you cant immediately come up with on the fly.

One thing that helped me a lot was understanding that in order to progress I must dnf. Dnf a lot. Because if you always make a safe comfortable memo you wont improve. You must push it to become faster and that means that sometimes you forget your memo. But your memory will adapt to that if done constantly and you WILL be faster.


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## josh42732 (Nov 21, 2014)

Jakube said:


> What's your memorization method at the moment.



I do same as Noah Arthurs which is corners/images and edges/audio.


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## JustACubingGuy1 (Jun 21, 2015)

*Best way to solve a 3x3 BLD?*

So I want to start learning to solve a rubiks 3x3 BLD.What is the fastest method (for you) and can you give me tips?Thanks!


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## Ollie (Jun 21, 2015)

The fastest method is 3-cycles, but also the hardest to learn, so I assume you want a method that is relatively easy to learn and has potential for solving in around 1:00-1:30. If so, learn M2 edges and OP corners, start here. Tips included.


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## DGCubes (Jun 21, 2015)

https://www.speedsolving.com/forum/showthread.php?45162-BLD-FAQ-(Do-yourself-a-favor-and-read-this)

Personally, I use OP for both edges and corners, and I learned corners from the Cubing World tutorial and edges from the Zane C tutorial. I'm not particularly fast though, but I have found OP edges to be easier to understand than M2 (at least for me), although M2 is probably better in the long run.


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## RomFrta33 (Jun 21, 2015)

You should also have a look at TuRBo which is considered as fast as M2 and that doesn't have the problem lf the flipped M slice!


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## josh42732 (Jun 21, 2015)

I just studied Zane Carney's tutorial in depth and even made flashcards for myself because I was really serious at learning BLD at the time. Don't try to learn it all in one day. Just focus on say edges for a couple days, and when you got that down, start to focus on corners, then gradually merge the two together. My first successful solve came after about 4-6 weeks of just drilling the algs that Zane taught, writing down my memo, and just doing corners only or edges only. After that, it just got easier and easier. Just practice. You don't have to make flashcards, but it makes it a crap ton easier. And I've found that thats the same for learning any alg.


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## Christmas (Sep 18, 2015)

*How to practice 3bld? (I'm a beginner)*

Hey, so I have been [actually] practicing 3bld for about a month now. I say actually because I knew how to before but I had never done a full solve, so yeah, last month I started again.
I average about 5 ~ 7 minutes using op with speffz and I want to get faster.

I've been told you can get to about 4 minutes with op, but I don't know. So I have a few questions:
I do around 3 ~ 6 solves a day, most are successful and I average about 5:30, my memo time is usually around 3 minutes. The main thing I want to improve is memo so to improve should I just keep doing solves. Or is there a more efficient way of practicing?

Also while we're here, when would you recommend I should switch methods, I think m2 is next but I'm still not sure about how things work with 3bld. So when do I learn what?

Thanks! ^^

Also I have started a youtube to document my progress (kinda) so if you're interested i will just leave it here


Spoiler



https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCf3zFtGxWXZZH5YItj9LD4g


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## tseitsei (Sep 18, 2015)

Christmas said:


> Hey, so I have been [actually] practicing 3bld for about a month now. I say actually because I knew how to before but I had never done a full solve, so yeah, last month I started again.
> I average about 5 ~ 7 minutes using op with speffz and I want to get faster.
> 
> I've been told you can get to about 4 minutes with op, but I don't know. So I have a few questions:
> ...



You CAN probably get sub-1 with OP or at least sub-1:30 if you really want, BUT IMO you should learn M2 immediately.

OP for edges is just so bad since M2 is quite easy and save a ******load of moves. For corners OP is ok for now but you should start learning how comms work and learn some easy corner commutator cases asap and then slowly start to incorporate those to your solves also...

Best way to practise is mainly to do a lot of solves. Also make sure that you have good words/images for EVERY possible letter pair. The most important thing while practising is to keep pushing yourself. Especially keep pushing your memo. Review that one time less and force yourself to memorize faster than you think you are capable of. You might DNF at first but you will get faster. If you always just memo in the pace that feels good and comfortable for you, you will not improve (or at least you'll improve much slower)


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## newtonbase (Sep 18, 2015)

I'm currently using OP/M2 but need a faster method (especially for corners). Is it 3-style I should be learning? If so, what are the best tutorials? I had a look at the first 2 in Noah's series and was a little baffled. I had the same problem with his M2 videos initially.


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## tseitsei (Sep 19, 2015)

newtonbase said:


> I'm currently using OP/M2 but need a faster method (especially for corners). Is it 3-style I should be learning? If so, what are the best tutorials? I had a look at the first 2 in Noah's series and was a little baffled. I had the same problem with his M2 videos initially.



Yeah, I don't think there is a good "in between" method for corners between op and 3-style...

Comms are IMO best learned when you first learn basic principles on how comms work (I learned from here mostly http://www.ryanheise.com/cube/corner_3_cycles.html ).
And then just learn some easy cases first and setup to those first. Then you can slowly learn more as you advance.

Some easy cases to start with (assuming you use UBL buffer):
1. Both targets on the D-layer but NOT on the D-face (R U2 R' inserts and similar)
2. One target on the U-face and another target on the D-layer but NOT on the D-face (R' D R inserts and similar)
Those are easy to see 8-movers that I started with.
One more useful but a little more complicated case is
3. One target on the U-face and another on the D-face you need a 5-move insert R' F' R2 F R

Once you know only those 3 "groups" of commutators you can already setup every case to those with only a few setup moves max


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## newtonbase (Sep 19, 2015)

tseitsei said:


> Yeah, I don't think there is a good "in between" method for corners between op and 3-style...
> 
> Comms are IMO best learned when you first learn basic principles on how comms work (I learned from here mostly http://www.ryanheise.com/cube/corner_3_cycles.html ).
> And then just learn some easy cases first and setup to those first. Then you can slowly learn more as you advance.
> ...



Now that's much easier to follow. I can see what Noah was talking about now too. Thanks for the help again tseitsei.


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## tseitsei (Sep 19, 2015)

newtonbase said:


> Now that's much easier to follow. I can see what Noah was talking about now too. Thanks for the help again tseitsei.



No problem


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## Christmas (Sep 19, 2015)

tseitsei said:


> You CAN probably get sub-1 with OP or at least sub-1:30 if you really want, BUT IMO you should learn M2 immediately.
> 
> OP for edges is just so bad since M2 is quite easy and save a ******load of moves. For corners OP is ok for now but you should start learning how comms work and learn some easy corner commutator cases asap and then slowly start to incorporate those to your solves also...
> 
> Best way to practise is mainly to do a lot of solves. Also make sure that you have good words/images for EVERY possible letter pair. The most important thing while practising is to keep pushing yourself. Especially keep pushing your memo. Review that one time less and force yourself to memorize faster than you think you are capable of. You might DNF at first but you will get faster. If you always just memo in the pace that feels good and comfortable for you, you will not improve (or at least you'll improve much slower)


Thanks, im trying to find some corner commutator tutorials but i just dont understand it. If you dont mind can you point me to a few good tutorials or explain to me XD
Thanks again


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## youSurname (Sep 19, 2015)

I found this video extremely helpful for understanding commutators https://youtube.com/watch?v=54SGrZbLcoE


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## tseitsei (Sep 19, 2015)

Christmas said:


> Thanks, im trying to find some corner commutator tutorials but i just dont understand it. If you dont mind can you point me to a few good tutorials or explain to me XD
> Thanks again



The one I linked for newtonbase a couple of posts up is where I learned the basic idea how comms work (Heise's site). And after that I just invented my own commutators that I use today (except 5-move inserts that I just memorized somewhere R' F' R2 F R and similar). First for easy cases only and gradually increased more and more of them to my solves. So I don't really know any tutorials other than that


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## Christmas (Sep 20, 2015)

youSurname said:


> I found this video extremely helpful for understanding commutators https://youtube.com/watch?v=54SGrZbLcoE


thanks dude ill check it out


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## mark49152 (Sep 24, 2015)

I have been experimenting with solving parity (M2/OP edges first) by memoing corners first and if parity exists, exchanging UB and UL during edge memo, so I shoot them to opposite places in anticipation of an odd number of corner swaps fixing that. This avoids a parity swap step. It also means there is always an even number of edge swaps, whereas if I had not swapped those targets, there would obviously be an odd number. So there is one more or one less edge swap. 

My question is this: Will there always be one more edge swap, always one less, or 50/50 depending on cycle breaks? Statistically, if we count a dedicated parity fix as equal to any other swap, is there a swap count advantage to fixing parity by exchanging targets?

(My guess is that it's 50/50, so in half of parity solves I'd be replacing parity fix with an extra swap, and in the other half I'd be saving two steps, the fix and a swap.)


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## YY (Sep 24, 2015)

mark49152 said:


> I have been experimenting with solving parity (M2/OP edges first) by memoing corners first and if parity exists, exchanging UB and UL during edge memo, so I shoot them to opposite places in anticipation of an odd number of corner swaps fixing that. This avoids a parity swap step. It also means there is always an even number of edge swaps, whereas if I had not swapped those targets, there would obviously be an odd number. So there is one more or one less edge swap.
> 
> My question is this: Will there always be one more edge swap, always one less, or 50/50 depending on cycle breaks? Statistically, if we count a dedicated parity fix as equal to any other swap, is there a swap count advantage to fixing parity by exchanging targets?
> 
> (My guess is that it's 50/50, so in half of parity solves I'd be replacing parity fix with an extra swap, and in the other half I'd be saving two steps, the fix and a swap.)



This question may be more complicated than you think. There are not only one more or one less edge swap patterns, but also three more or less edge swaps patterns and some more or less edge flips patterns.
I try to solve it by dividing into some cases, but this discussion is a bit long. If there are any mistakes or you know smarter solutions, please tell us. If you want to see the conclusion, please see the bottom.

In the following, I will write two exchanging slots as [A], *, and sticker that must be in these slots as A, B. Another sticker of the pieces are a, b. I will use N to mean that this is not the sticker of the piece A, B. Another sticker of this piece is n. N',N1,N2,... is the same.
(For example, if white is U and green is F, [A],  is UL, UB(or UB,UL) and A, B is white, a, b is blue, orange(or orange,blue))

Pattern 1-1: B in [A], A in 
In this case, we can reduce 3 letters(ABA or BAB) by exchanging two slots.

Pattern 1-2: b in [A], A in (B in [A], a in  case is the same discussion)
In this case, we can reduce 3 letters, but 1 edge flip is added.

Pattern 1-3: b in [A], a in 
In this case, we can reduce 3 letters, but 2 edge flips are added.


Pattern 2-1: A in [A], B in 
3 letters are added.

Pattern 2-2: a in [A], B in (A in [A], b in )
3 letters are added and 1 edge flip is removed.

Pattern 2-3: a in [A], b in 
3 letters are added and 2 edge flips are removed.

Now, the probability of 1-1 is equal to that of 2-1. That of 1-2 and 2-2, 1-3 and 2-3 are also the same.


Pattern 3-1: N in [A], A in (B in [A], N in )
B is in [N']. Before exchanging, the order of letters is N', B, A, N. After exchanging, the order of letters is N', A, N and the correct piece is in .So, we can reduce 1 letter.

Pattern 3-2: N in [A], a in (b in [A], N in )
Almost the same discussion as 3-1(N'Ban→N'AN), except for plus 1 edge flip in .


Pattern 4-1: A in [A], N in (N in [A], B in )
B is in [N']. Before exchanging, the order is N', B, N. After exchanging, the order is N', A, B, N. So, 1 letter is added.

Pattern 4-2: a in [A], N in (N in [A], b in )
Almost the same discussion as 4-1(N'BN→N'Abn), except for minus 1 edge flip in [A].

Now, the probability of 3-1 is equal to that of 4-1. That of 3-2 and 4-2 are also the same.


Pattern 5: N1 in [A], N2 in 
A is in [N3], B is in [N4].
5-1: A and B is in the same loop
The order of letters is N3, A, N1, ... , N4(or n4), B(or b), N2(or n2), ... , N3(or n3).
After exchanging, the order of letters becomes N3, B, N2, ... , N3(or n3) and N4, A, N1, ... , N4(or n4).
So, one loop increases and 1 letter is added.

5-2: A and B is in the other loop
The order is N3, A, N1, ..., N3 and N4, B, N2, ... , N4.
After exchanging, the order becomes N3, B, N2, ... , N4, A, N1, ... , N3.(omit the small letter)
So, one loop decreases and 1 letter is reduced.

Now, I should consider the probability of 5-1 and 5-2.
I set the begin of loop to A. Next letter is N1.
In [N1], there may be N3(n3) or N4(n4) or N(n).(N is not equal to N1,2,3,4)
1. If N3(n3), the loop is finished because A(a) comes next, and this case is 5-2 because B(b) doesn't appear yet.
2. If N4(n4), next B(b) comes and it is before A(a). Loop still continues, but we can decide that this case is 5-1.
3. If N(n), next letter is same discussion as N1 because N3(n3) and N4(n4) don't appear yet.

And, the probability of N3(n3) or N4(n4) comes are the same in all the case of [N] before N3 and N4 come. Therefore, by repetition of this discussion, we can understand that the probability of 5-1 and 5-2 are the same.


Considering all of above cases, simple average of all cases is no plus or minus letter and edge flip.

In conclusion, we can save only a parity fix in average by exchanging targets. However, edge flip problem is a bit complicated. If there are already one flip, plus one flip is a small problem in the length of execution. I think this calculation is troublesome, so I didn't try to solve it.

Furthermore, this conclusion is in the case of using M2/OP method. If we use 3 cycle methods, I think the conclusion is almost the same as above, but in small part varies with parity methods we use.*


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## mark49152 (Sep 24, 2015)

YY said:


> This question may be more complicated than you think.


That's a great reply, thank you very much. I'll digest it in detail later, but my first thought is that I would avoid trying to exchange those edges if it were obvious that it would create more work, like if they formed a cycle alone, or if one of them were already solved. Not sure of that would make a significant difference, but I think you answered the question, which is that on average there's no saving beyond the parity fix.


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## willtri4 (Oct 5, 2015)

I'm having trouble with consistency. I've done 50 attempts, and 7 of them were successes. Is it normal for someone this new to have such a low success rate?


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## Damien Porter (Oct 5, 2015)

willtri4 said:


> I'm having trouble with consistency. I've done 50 attempts, and 7 of them were successes. Is it normal for someone this new to have such a low success rate?



It depends how fast you went from not knowing how to blind solve and doing it. Concider taking a step back and just practicing edges and corners separatly. Increase your accuracy on them separately, work on the most problematic then start doing full attempts again.

Having said that 7/50 isn't that bad. Blind solving isn't an easy thing to learn.


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## mark49152 (Oct 5, 2015)

willtri4 said:


> I'm having trouble with consistency. I've done 50 attempts, and 7 of them were successes. Is it normal for someone this new to have such a low success rate?


As Damien said, practise edges and corners separately. Also practise solving sighted so you can exactly how the solve is working. What method do you use?

I am a fairly new BLDer. At first I would recommend focusing on success not time - so go slow, master your letter scheme, develop a memo method, and master your chosen execution method. You should get to the point where if your memory is correct, your solve is correct, with no failures due to execution screw ups.

Then when you start to think about getting faster, I think it is good to have failures. If you don't have failures, you aren't pushing yourself hard enough. I try to stay just over 50% - so I push my speed as much as I can but if my success rate drops below 50% I'll slow down a bit.


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## ender9994 (Oct 19, 2015)

Quick question out of curiosity: Assuming you use 1 letter per piece memorized, what is the breakdown of the average number of letters memorized needed to compete the corners? Thanks

-Doug


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## josh42732 (Oct 19, 2015)

ender9994 said:


> Quick question out of curiosity: Assuming you use 1 letter per piece memorized, what is the breakdown of the average number of letters memorized needed to compete the corners? Thanks
> 
> -Doug


For corners, due to my experience of BLD solving, I'd say around 8. 

And to piggyback on what he said, what is the average for 4BLD?


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## ender9994 (Oct 19, 2015)

josh42732 said:


> For corners, due to my experience of BLD solving, I'd say around 8.
> 
> And to piggyback on what he said, what is the average for 4BLD?



I am thinking it is 8 as well. Was wondering if somebody had a percentage breakdown though (Aka 43% has 8, 23% has 9 etc..)


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## tseitsei (Oct 20, 2015)

I dont have any real numbers just an approximation from my own countless solves but I would say for corners it's less than 8 if you memo twists visually (high 7) and more than 8 if you memo twist with letters (low 8).

For 4bld I would say something like 16 for centers 24 for wings and 8 for corners approximately...


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## dovshmuel (Oct 27, 2015)

I know that this may have been answered several times already, but how do you deal with twisted corners with OP? Or having to shoot to BU and BU shoots to FD using m2?


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## h2f (Oct 27, 2015)

Twisted corners you can deal with algs like: (R U R' U') (R U R' U') L' (U R U' R') (U R U' R') L or with OP - shoot your piece to buffer, next shoot your piece to proper spot on cube. 

In 3bld for shooting to BU you do special alg. Theres no need to shoot to FD - its your buffer from other angle. In big blds BU - special alg same like in 3bld, FD - do the setup l2 and next you do alg for BU.


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## biscuit (Jan 9, 2016)

I'm having difficulty o execution. I memo fine, but some where I mess up on a set up move or something. Any tips for improving execution success rates?


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## josh42732 (Jan 9, 2016)

biscuit said:


> I'm having difficulty o execution. I memo fine, but some where I mess up on a set up move or something. Any tips for improving execution success rates?


Sighted solves. And practicing in segments helps as well. Memo 4-6 pieces and then solve them. Or less


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## hedgehoghead (Feb 23, 2016)

This is aimed at beginners learning TURBO. A list of basic corner/edge algs for TURBO BLD. The algorithms are aimed at learners who learn algs visually. Rather than looking at daunting lists, I've tried to present the info as concisely as possible. You can print them out as index cards to carry around as you learn.

www.facebook.com/turbobld


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## oneshot (Feb 26, 2016)

Could someone explain or link me to a tutorial on how to tell if corners and edges are twisted when the cube is scrambled. 

Thanks!


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## Nikhil Soares (Mar 6, 2016)

I wanted to learn 5bld. I've already learnt 4bld. The only problem in 5bld is that I don't know the parities! I don't know the alg not how to use them. The method I use is U2,r2,and OP corners.Please help me. Wanted to learn it before my nationals'Indian Nationals 2016'


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## Ollie (Mar 6, 2016)

I use T-perm and Rw2 F2 U2 r2 U2 F2 Rw2, other people will have better algs I'm sure.


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## Hssandwich (Mar 6, 2016)

T-perm and r2 U2 r U2 r2 U2 r2 U2 r U2 r2


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## Nikhil Soares (Mar 6, 2016)

But how do I use it. And is it the only parity? And what is this parity for?inner edges outer edges? Corners? Sorry can't understand. Btw where did you learn 5bld from?


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## h2f (Mar 6, 2016)

Hssandwich said:


> T-perm and r2 U2 r U2 r2 U2 r2 U2 r U2 r2



Nice. I used Ollie's solution. 

@Nikhil

This is Parity for midges and corners. Ohter stuff works the same as in 4bld.


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## Ollie (Mar 6, 2016)

Nikhil Soares said:


> But how do I use it. And is it the only parity? And what is this parity for?inner edges outer edges? Corners? Sorry can't understand. Btw where did you learn 5bld from?



When you said you'd learnt 4BLD, I assumed that you knew how to solve parity for outer edges. I also took "I don't know the alg not how to use them" to mean that you know how parity works and that you just needed an alg.

It's for inner edges and corners, but it depends on what buffers you use. 

1. If your corner buffer is UBR, then solve all of your targets and then shoot to UFR, this will leave those corners swapped. 
2. If you solve inner edges from UR, then solve all of your targets and then shoot to UL, this will leave what looks like a T-perm.
3. Apply T-perm, it will leave you with PLL parity, like on 4x4x4.
4. Solve this PLL parity.


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## Nikhil Soares (Mar 6, 2016)

Thanks a lot all of you now I Learnt 5bld EXCECUTION!!!


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## Nikhil Soares (Mar 6, 2016)

Ollie I did some example solves but couldn't understand. I use my buffer as UBL or A using Speff's letter scheme what should I do? And what is the order of solving? By order I mean that what should I solve first what next what last..........


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## Nikhil Soares (Mar 6, 2016)

Btw are you Oliver Frost? Can you make a tutorial on 5bld on your YouTube channel?


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## Ollie (Mar 6, 2016)

Nikhil Soares said:


> Ollie I did some example solves but couldn't understand. I use my buffer as UBL or A using Speff's letter scheme what should I do? And what is the order of solving? By order I mean that what should I solve first what next what last..........



I can't answer everything for you. If you have learned 4BLD like you say you have then this should be obvious to you.

When you solve your corners and you have parity, shoot to all of the targets in your memorisation, and then after that shoot to B. This will correct your edges and switch UBL and UBR ready to do your T perm. 

If your edge buffer is B, then you'll probably have to shoot to A after all of your targets have been solved and do a J perm instead. This means you will have adjacent PLL parity instead of opposite PLL parity.

Solve centers first, because T perms rotate centers by 90 degrees each time so there is a danger of your centers being misaligned if you try and solve corners first. This means your execution will be wrong.

Try this tutorial: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w59BgT6piDU

Disclaimer: I've never learned OP, someone will correct me?


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## Ollie (Mar 6, 2016)

Put simply, solve inner edges and corners like a 3BLD.


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## Nikhil Soares (Mar 6, 2016)

What? Does that 4bld trickreally work.So sorry to disturb you Ollie.


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## Ollie (Mar 6, 2016)

Nikhil Soares said:


> What? Does that 4bld trickreally work.So sorry to disturb you Ollie.



No problem at all! Good luck


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## Hssandwich (Mar 6, 2016)

My method for my first 5BLD success was pretty much to spam wide T-perms for centres. Setup to UL for inner centres and UFR for outer centres.


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## mark49152 (Mar 7, 2016)

Since you said you solve wings with r2, I'll assume you're using M2 for midges. I'll also assume you solve in the order wings, midges, corners.

A common way to fix 3BLD parity with M2 is, after solving all edges, to swap the UB and UL edges with an alg like D' L2 D M2 D' L2 D. Then you do an odd number of Y perms for corners and those swap UB and UL back. 

The problem with 5BLD is that you can only do this on the single middle slice, and that means you only swap the midges, not their adjacent wings. Since your Y perm swaps entire tredges, you end up with a DNF due to swapped wings.

What you need is a parity alg that fixes only the inner M slice but swaps the entire tredges at UL and UB. Do that by embedding Ollie's alg into the above parity alg as follows:-

D' L2 D M2 (F2 (Rw2 F2 U2 r2 U2 F2 Rw2) F2) D' L2 D


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## Daniel Lin (Apr 25, 2016)

oneshot said:


> Could someone explain or link me to a tutorial on how to tell if corners and edges are twisted when the cube is scrambled.
> 
> Thanks!


Look at the 3 stickers of the corner and the 3 surrounding centers of the corner. If the colors are the same it's twisted. If everything matches though the corners solvved


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## oneshot (Apr 29, 2016)

And there's short alg's that untwist them? I have been shooting to one sticker, then shooting to another sticker to get it back and oriented. There's a shorter way, right?


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## SweetSolver (Apr 30, 2016)

oneshot said:


> And there's short alg's that untwist them? I have been shooting to one sticker, then shooting to another sticker to get it back and oriented. There's a shorter way, right?


Yes, there are a number of algs that you can use. I use a flipping algorithm for edges, but I still shoot to two corner stickers as I haven't bothered to learn any algs for it yet. It's a good habit to get into though. There are quite a few that you can check out here: https://www.speedsolving.com/wiki/index.php/CO


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## Daniel Lin (Apr 30, 2016)

oneshot said:


> And there's short alg's that untwist them? I have been shooting to one sticker, then shooting to another sticker to get it back and oriented. There's a shorter way, right?


(R U R' U R U2 R')(L' U' L U' L' U2 L) sune left sune
(L' U' L U' L' U2 L)(R U R' U R U2 R')left sune sune
(R U2 R' U' R U' R')(L' U2 L U L' U L) antisune left antisune
(L' U2 L U L' U L)(R U2 R' U' R U' R') left antisune antisune
these are the only algs i use


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## Hssandwich (Apr 30, 2016)

Also: (R U2 R' U' R U' R') U' (R U R' U R U' R' U R U2 R') U' antisune U' double sune


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## Altha (May 1, 2016)

Does anyone know where I can get a list of U2 algs for the UBL buffer for 4BLD?


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## h2f (May 1, 2016)

Altha said:


> Does anyone know where I can get a list of U2 algs for the UBL buffer for 4BLD?



Here you got: http://blindfoldcubing.site40.net/MR8.html
In Polish but you need only list. Bufer is Ubr. Author: Marcin Zalewski.


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## Altha (May 1, 2016)

h2f said:


> Here you got: http://blindfoldcubing.site40.net/MR8.html
> In Polish but you need only list. Bufer is Ubr. Author: Marcin Zalewski.


oh, I was specifically after a UBL buffer list for U2 but I eventually realised I could just mirror the U and D face UBR algs L/R to get UBL buffer algs and use intuition for the rest of the targets. But thanks anyway!


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## h2f (May 1, 2016)

Ach, ok. I missed you wanted another buffer.


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## Joel Banks (May 1, 2016)

I am trying to learn OP for BLD. Can someone help me with my understanding of the beginning? So for the edges you use setup moves to get where the pieces need to go, and swap the using T or J. Always swap the same corners so you don't have to memorize extra. Is this correct?


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## Daniel Lin (May 2, 2016)

Hssandwich said:


> Also: (R U2 R' U' R U' R') U' (R U R' U R U' R' U R U2 R') U' antisune U' double sune


I prefer to do a one move setup and a 2sune case


Joel Banks said:


> I am trying to learn OP for BLD. Can someone help me with my understanding of the beginning? So for the edges you use setup moves to get where the pieces need to go, and swap the using T or J. Always swap the same corners so you don't have to memorize extra. Is this correct?


yup, and you need to make sure the setup moves don't affect the corners


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## Joel Banks (May 2, 2016)

Awesome thanks


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## Sion (Aug 7, 2016)

I just want to know a few things.

What is the most common system for BLD? 

How many algs would be optimal to learn?

Where are the best resources to learn Blind solving?


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## sqAree (Aug 7, 2016)

Sion said:


> I just want to know a few things.
> 
> What is the most common system for BLD?
> 
> ...


https://www.speedsolving.com/forum/threads/bld-faq-do-yourself-a-favor-and-read-this.45162/


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## LexCubing (May 20, 2017)

Tackling Flips and Twists. Is it better to to do memo 1 sticker and shoot to another or set it up to pure flips?


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## LexCubing (May 31, 2017)

I heard parity is around ~400 algs? How many parity/twisted/flipped cases are there?

I would calculate it by myself but symmetry is a ***** for me. I don't know anyway other way of doing it rather than listing everything out and check its symmetry which will take too long.


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## TheGrayCuber (Jun 2, 2017)

LexCubing said:


> I heard parity is around ~400 algs?
> 
> I would calculate it by myself but symmetry is a ***** for me. I don't know anyway other way of doing it rather than listing everything out and check its symmetry which will take too long.



What do you mean by parity being 400 algs? What is a parity alg?


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## LexCubing (Jun 3, 2017)

Killernerd24 said:


> What do you mean by parity being 400 algs? What is a parity alg?


Every possible 2-cycle alg on the cube. All the 2-corner 2-edge swap algs that is possible on the cube.


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## Underwatercuber (Jun 3, 2017)

I am about to start learning 3style corners but I have a quick question about parity. I use M2 so could I just do things like this
Solve edges -> do edge parity alg -> solve corners using 3style -> shoot to last corner using OP


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## newtonbase (Jun 3, 2017)

Underwatercuber said:


> I am about to start learning 3style corners but I have a quick question about parity. I use M2 so could I just do things like this
> Solve edges -> do edge parity alg -> solve corners using 3style -> shoot to last corner using OP


Yes. That works.
There's another option that I've started using recently. If you memo corners first and find you have parity then during edge memo switch UB with UL. That will give an even number of edges but with those pieces swapped. You don't need a parity alg as solving the last corner with OP finishes the cube. I'm assuming you use standard buffer and target piece.


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## Underwatercuber (Jun 3, 2017)

newtonbase said:


> Yes. That works.
> There's another option that I've started using recently. If you memo corners first and find you have parity then during edge memo switch UB with UL. That will give an even number of edges but with those pieces swapped. You don't need a parity alg as solving the last corner with OP finishes the cube. I'm assuming you use standard buffer and target piece.


I already do memo corners first so I could try that. So your saying just solve UB to UR and UR to UB if I have an odd number of targets?


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## newtonbase (Jun 3, 2017)

Underwatercuber said:


> I already do memo corners first so I could try that. So your saying just solve UB to UR and UR to UB if I have an odd number of targets?


Yes. It's pretty simple. I was surprised how quickly I got used to it. I'm still working on corner comms so I don't use them much but this method works in OP/M2 as well.


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## Underwatercuber (Jun 3, 2017)

newtonbase said:


> Yes. It's pretty simple. I was surprised how quickly I got used to it. I'm still working on corner comms so I don't use them much but this method works in OP/M2 as well.


I will try it out. Seems like it's not too bad but I definitely need to try it out more


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## Fábio De'Rose (Jun 3, 2017)

I'm almost done learning all my Centers for 4BLD. This should leave only the Parity cases left until I can start doing full solves instead of sighted / isolated practice.

Memorizing them ain't so hard, but during execution I nearly always mess up, still not sure why. Could be either doing the wrong setup moves (those pesky 4-movers!) or memorizing them wrong.

I'll re-watch Noah's video on centers, but I'm pretty sure I can pick any unsolved center our of the 2,3 or 4 available, right?


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## Fábio De'Rose (Jun 4, 2017)

So, I got my lazy butt into the chair and tried full 4BLD solves. Failed miserably.

The thing that got me the most was tracking solved wings. I'm having the hardest time ever keeping track of my solved wings, especially with multiple cycle breaks.

Any suggestions? During 3BLD I don't have a problem with this, and track pieces with my fingers, but in thr 4x4 it is pretty hard.


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## Noviacuber (Jul 23, 2017)

Are there any 4 cycle permutations that permute not only upper stickers but side too? In bld sometimes I have two stickers to be swapped. HOW TO AVOID NEW CYCLE AND TO SOLVE THEM APART?PLEASE HELP


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## Alex B71 (Jul 23, 2017)

Noviacuber said:


> Are there any 4 cycle permutations that permute not only upper stickers but side too? In bld sometimes I have two stickers to be swapped. HOW TO AVOID NEW CYCLE AND TO SOLVE THEM APART?PLEASE HELP



Cycle breaks are somewhat complicated to avoid. I suggest reading/watching up on "Floating Buffers" and "Setting up into PLL's in BLD". A quick example of this would be having the UF, UB targets swapped then putting UR into UL and UL into UR and performing a H-Perm. Floating buffers are essentially like treating another piece as your buffer and performing a 3Cycle to solve all 3 pieces at once instead of breaking into the target. 

You can find many written and watchable resources to help you understand these concepts better. Also finding reconstructions of Fast BLD solvers solves can be useful.


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## tadhg (Sep 8, 2017)

Hey all!
I am new here! Recently I have gotten very interested in blind solving. I know the theory and how to do it (never successfully done it blind yet) and I am wondering if you have any tips or tricks for me. 
Thanks


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## T1_M0 (Sep 8, 2017)

Do it like you know how to do it ( the improvement will be fast in the beginning). And post to an existing thread instead.


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## TheGrayCuber (Sep 10, 2017)

tadhg said:


> Hey all!
> I am new here! Recently I have gotten very interested in blind solving. I know the theory and how to do it (never successfully done it blind yet) and I am wondering if you have any tips or tricks for me.
> Thanks



A good way to start is to do sighted solves using OP (or whatever method you learn). Then memo 2 letters and solve them blind, repeating until the cube is solved. Then step up to 4 at a time. Then do all edges and all corners, and after you get comfortable with that, you'll be able to do blind!


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## guysensei1 (Sep 10, 2017)

My advice? Just do it. If you're familiar with all the techniques, cycle breaks, twisted pieces, parity etc, you should just attempt a full solve. I know too many people who know all the techniques but did not ever try a full attempt. So just do it. Even if it takes half an hour to memo and half an hour to execute, just do it.


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## CornerCutter (Sep 28, 2017)

Hey guys,

I haven't had a 3BLD success yet. It takes be under 10min to do an attempt but I'm always 4 or 6 pieces off. The corners I get correct always. I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong? Any common mistakes?


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## newtonbase (Sep 28, 2017)

CornerCutter said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> I haven't had a 3BLD success yet. It takes be under 10min to do an attempt but I'm always 4 or 6 pieces off. The corners I get correct always. I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong? Any common mistakes?


What method are you using? Have you gone back to the same scramble to see if it's memo or execution causing the issue? Maybe try writing the memo down and solving sighted to see if you can work out where you are going wrong.


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## CornerCutter (Sep 28, 2017)

newtonbase said:


> What method are you using? Have you gone back to the same scramble to see if it's memo or execution causing the issue? Maybe try writing the memo down and solving sighted to see if you can work out where you are going wrong.


OP. That's a good idea. I've also thought of filming the solve.


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## newtonbase (Sep 28, 2017)

CornerCutter said:


> OP. That's a good idea. I've also thought of filming the solve.


That will help.


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## Bailey Mitchell (Oct 19, 2017)

Hey guys, wanna learn 3x3 blindfolded but i dont know about any methods, please leave links and methods below 

Thanks Guys, much appreciated


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## shadowslice e (Oct 19, 2017)

Start with M2/OP if you really get into it afterwards learn 3-style.


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## Bailey Mitchell (Oct 19, 2017)

shadowslice e said:


> Start with M2/OP if you really get into it afterwards learn 3-style.


Perfect thanks


----------



## Bailey Mitchell (Oct 19, 2017)

Hey guys, wanted some good blindfolded 3x3 blindfolded video tutorials and tricks to help

TY Guys :0


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## Blindsighted (Nov 3, 2017)

I'm not sure if this is what you meant but...


----------



## Horhe (Nov 16, 2017)

How to deal with corner twist? I mean how'd you guys execute it fast? My buffer is UFR


----------



## Blindsighted (Nov 16, 2017)

Check out Daniel's list here
https://www.speedsolving.com/forum/threads/a-collection-of-bld-algorithms-lists.65238/


----------



## FastCubeMaster (Dec 4, 2017)

I just recently did a 4BLD attempt and DNF'd, but when I checked, I realised I had everything perfect in memo but corner parity messed up the centres. I solve: Corners, centres, wings, and I was wondering how I could do parity (keeping this order) without messing up the centres. I tried both of the regular PLL parity algs but they messed up the centres


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## TheGrayCuber (Dec 4, 2017)

FastCubeMaster said:


> I just recently did a 4BLD attempt and DNF'd, but when I checked, I realised I had everything perfect in memo but corner parity messed up the centres. I solve: Corners, centres, wings, and I was wondering how I could do parity (keeping this order) without messing up the centres. I tried both of the regular PLL parity algs but they messed up the centres



Don’t fix parity until you’ve solved centers. You can solve corners first, just remember that you have to fix parity at the end of the solve.


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## Jacck (Dec 4, 2017)

Killernerd24 said:


> ... You can solve corners first...


But this is only centersafe if you use comms. With OP there can be trouble, because J-Perm, T-Perm etc. rotate the top-center 90° (just add the U-turns of your perm to find out in which direction). If you have 10 corners to solve and do them all with the same perm, the top-centers will be rotated 180°.
OK, you can avoid that if you alternate between the normal and inverse perm ...


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## Underwatercuber (Dec 4, 2017)

Jacck said:


> But this is only centersafe if you use comms. With OP there can be trouble, because J-Perm, T-Perm etc. rotate the top-center 90° (just add the U-turns of your perm to find out in which direction). If you have 10 corners to solve and do them all with the same perm, the top-centers will be rotated 180°.
> OK, you can avoid that if you alternate between the normal and inverse perm ...


Maybe I’m crazy but I don’t think you can do big bld with OP for wings/midges. OP corners are OK to do first if the total number of targets is divisable by 4. The easier way to do it in my opinion is too solve centers first then solve wings or corners.


----------



## FastCubeMaster (Dec 4, 2017)

Underwatercuber said:


> Maybe I’m crazy but I don’t think you can do big bld with OP for wings/midges. OP corners are OK to do first if the total number of targets is divisable by 4. The easier way to do it in my opinion is too solve centers first then solve wings or corners.


Sorry, please explain why the total number of OP targets need to be a multiple of 4 for corners?

I didn't think OP for corners affected anything..? (Except for parity of course, which was explained to me)


----------



## Underwatercuber (Dec 4, 2017)

FastCubeMaster said:


> Sorry, please explain why the total number of OP targets need to be a multiple of 4 for corners?
> 
> I didn't think OP for corners affected anything..? (Except for parity of course, which was explained to me)


Every time you do a modified Y perm it affects the center by doing a U’


----------



## FastCubeMaster (Dec 5, 2017)

Ok, this should be my last question, but if I want to solve corners with comms (corners first) to avoid messing up centres, what should I do if I have parity and an odd number of targets on corners? (Where I would normally do a modified y perm)


----------



## Underwatercuber (Dec 5, 2017)

Basically solve everything but execute corner parity after centers are solved.


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## FastCubeMaster (Dec 5, 2017)

Underwatercuber said:


> Basically solve everything but execute corner parity after centers are solved.


Do you mean wait until after solving everything before doing that last y perm target?


----------



## TheGrayCuber (Dec 5, 2017)

FastCubeMaster said:


> Do you mean wait until after solving everything before doing that last y perm target?



If you are using Y-perms to solve corners, they need to wait until your centers are solved.


----------



## FastCubeMaster (Dec 5, 2017)

Killernerd24 said:


> If you are using Y-perms to solve corners, they need to wait until your centers are solved.


Thanks for your help


----------



## Hazel (Dec 15, 2017)

How fast should I be with (Advanced) M2 before I switch to 3-style? I use OP for corners. Also, if I intend to start doing MBLD, should I get used to using images for both edges and corners?


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## TheGrayCuber (Dec 15, 2017)

Aerma said:


> How fast should I be with (Advanced) M2 before I switch to 3-style? I use OP for corners. Also, if I intend to start doing MBLD, should I get used to using images for both edges and corners?



I would recommend that you switch to 3-style corners when you are averaging between 1:00 and 2:00, but wait to learn 3-style edges until you are comfortable with corners. 
As far as MBLD goes, you should use images or a similar long-term method to memorize both edges and corners. You can treat the last cube that you memorize as a 3BLD, but the rest require more solid memo than audio/visual.


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## Hazel (Dec 15, 2017)

Killernerd24 said:


> I would recommend that you switch to 3-style corners when you are averaging between 1:00 and 2:00, but wait to learn 3-style edges until you are comfortable with corners.
> As far as MBLD goes, you should use images or a similar long-term method to memorize both edges and corners. You can treat the last cube that you memorize as a 3BLD, but the rest require more solid memo than audio/visual.


Ok, thanks! Also, is Noah's video tutorial series the best place to learn 3-style?


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## TheGrayCuber (Dec 15, 2017)

Aerma said:


> Ok, thanks! Also, is Noah's video tutorial series the best place to learn 3-style?



Noah’s video is a good way to learn what commutators are and how to use them. Once you want to start applying 3-style to your solves, I would recommend looking at the tables here: http://bestsiteever.ru/tables/ 

It is a collection of many commutators for a variety of buffers. Find the ones that suit you best, and then learn them!


----------



## Prabal Baishya (Feb 25, 2018)

Practising to push the memo has given me a sub-15 memo for 3BLD, but I wanted to ask that sometimes using audio for edge memorisation, the audio string is just horrible as it has no rhythm and since I don't review them at all, during execution I sometimes mess up the letter pairs.
Any tips to fix this problem?


----------



## Helleno (Mar 18, 2018)

I recently started learning the M2 method for blindsolving and I know the Old Pochman method. How ever, I don't understand starting new cycles (if you even do) and how to know if a piece is flipped or not eg, getting a Yellow Red piece and not knowing ifs its an A edge or an E edge ( following the https://www.speedcubereview.com/blind-solving-algorithms.html lettering system for less confusion).

If anyone knows and can explain it would be amazing, or if there is another thread that specifically deals with this, it would be much appreciated! Thanks


----------



## Oatch (Mar 18, 2018)

Helleno said:


> I recently started learning the M2 method for blindsolving and I know the Old Pochman method. How ever, I don't understand starting new cycles (if you even do) and how to know if a piece is flipped or not eg, getting a Yellow Red piece and not knowing ifs its an A edge or an E edge ( following the https://www.speedcubereview.com/blind-solving-algorithms.html lettering system for less confusion).
> 
> If anyone knows and can explain it would be amazing, or if there is another thread that specifically deals with this, it would be much appreciated! Thanks


Hi, welcome to the forums!

On the subject of starting a new cycle, when you are tracing a cycle and come back to your buffer piece, either you are finished, or there are unsolved pieces in disjoint cycles that you must solve. In the case of the latter, this is when you have to 'break into a new cycle'. To do this, simply target a piece that you haven't solved yet and continue tracing as normal. You will eventually trace back to this piece that you originally shot to when you broke into the cycle. Again, at this point, you will either be finished or there is another cycle you have to break into. Repeat this process as necessary until all pieces are solved. To keep track of pieces you have solved/unsolved, what I liked to do when I was first starting out was to tap a finger on each piece as I traced out the cycle to give myself a visual reminder of what I had dealt with so far.

For flipped edges, what I usually do nowadays is that I usually notice edges that are flipped as I am tracing out my edges (for me, they are pretty easy to spot - the edges are in the correct spot with incorrect orientation). I guess this method works well once you become a lot more experienced/confident with tracing, and because I memorise flipped pieces with visual memory instead. However, you can treat them just like cycle breaks (albeit very short cycle breaks!). A telltale way to notice that you have flipped edges or a cycle break is if you trace back to your buffer piece but it is flipped (e.g. your cycle end back on FD instead of DF). For example, consider the red-white piece with your lettering scheme (the M2 buffer, DF). If you trace a cycle and end on the white side, then the buffer will be solved (correct orientation and permutation). If however, you end on the red side, the buffer piece will be in the correct spot, but it will be flipped.


----------



## FastCubeMaster (Apr 2, 2018)

What wing buffers does everyone good use for 4BLD, and out of the people who use UF, how many use UFr and how many use UFl?

I’ve switched to turbo on 3BLD and so I’ll of course be using it for 4BLD, but in Tom’s epic tutorial 



He uses the buffer UFr, and since I’ve come from DFr, the UFr buffer uses the ‘left’ of every pair of wings while I’m used to the ‘right’ wing of every pair.

Since I’m still bad (averaging 9min) I think it’d be best for me to switch now but I’m mainly wondering what everyone good does.

Bonus question: in terms of centre buffers, is there much difference in say Ubl or Ubr for example? Should I just keep it the same as my corner buffer?


----------



## Underwatercuber (Apr 2, 2018)

FastCubeMaster said:


> What wing buffers does everyone good use for 4BLD, and out of the people who use UF, how many use UFr and how many use UFl?
> 
> I’ve switched to turbo on 3BLD and so I’ll of course be using it for 4BLD, but in Tom’s epic tutorial
> 
> ...


I switched from DF to UF and DFr to UFr pretty recently, it is a little weird to get used to the tracing at first but you get used to it somewhat quickly.


----------



## TheGrayCuber (Apr 3, 2018)

FastCubeMaster said:


> What wing buffers does everyone good use for 4BLD, and out of the people who use UF, how many use UFr and how many use UFl?
> 
> I’ve switched to turbo on 3BLD and so I’ll of course be using it for 4BLD, but in Tom’s epic tutorial
> 
> ...



I use UFl because I use my left hand to do M moves, so it is easier to do l than r.


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## a person who cubes (Apr 14, 2018)

Best order of memorization and execution of 3BLD. Don't know if it is better to memorize the corners/edges first then execute the corners/edges first.


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## Sue Doenim (Apr 14, 2018)

a person who cubes said:


> Best order of memorization and execution of 3BLD. Don't know if it is better to memorize the corners/edges first or execute the corners/edges first.


I don't know if this is right, but I think a lot of people do corners/edges then edges/corners.


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## a person who cubes (Apr 14, 2018)

I am asking if you memorize the corners or edges first and then execute the corners or edges last in 3BLD


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## adimare (Apr 14, 2018)

a person who cubes said:


> Best order of memorization and execution of 3BLD. Don't know if it is better to memorize the corners/edges first then execute the corners/edges first.


I don't think there's an answer to this question that'll work for everyone. It depends on the method you use, the memo technique you use, your memorization skills, etc.

For instance, I memo corners first, then edges, then execute edges first and corners last. That's because I solve parity by swapping the position of the UB and UL edges during memo so that when I solve the last corner using a Y perm they'll be swapped into their proper positions. That pretty much forces me to memo corners first (to figure out parity) and execute them last (because the last corner swaps the edges, if I do that before placing the edges into position my edges memo won't work).

What method do you use? How do you solve parity?


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## a person who cubes (Apr 14, 2018)

I use Old Pochmann and parity is Ra Perm. Thanks for replying. I now have a good idea of what I should do.


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## a person who cubes (Apr 15, 2018)

why do blindfolded scrambles end with wide moves?


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## TheGrayCuber (Apr 16, 2018)

a person who cubes said:


> why do blindfolded scrambles end with wide moves?



To randomize the orientation, so you don't know which side is where.


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## a person who cubes (Apr 16, 2018)

Killernerd24 said:


> To randomize the orientation, so you don't know which side is where.


 Whats the point in randomizing the orientation?


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## TheGrayCuber (Apr 16, 2018)

a person who cubes said:


> Whats the point in randomizing the orientation?



4b3a) For blindfolded events, the scramble sequence must orient the puzzle randomly (equal probability for each orientation).


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## a person who cubes (Apr 19, 2018)

I watched some bld vids and saw that the fingertricks for M moves are different than what I do in 3x3. Can you tell me how you do 3BLD M moves?


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## TheGrayCuber (Apr 20, 2018)

a person who cubes said:


> I watched some bld vids and saw that the fingertricks for M moves are different than what I do in 3x3. Can you tell me how you do 3BLD M moves?



People generally flick or push BD with their ring fingers.


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## Dancing Jules (Apr 20, 2018)

adimare said:


> For instance, I memo corners first, then edges, then execute edges first and corners last. That's because I solve parity by swapping the position of the UB and UL edges during memo so that when I solve the last corner using a Y perm they'll be swapped into their proper positions. That pretty much forces me to memo corners first (to figure out parity) and execute them last (because the last corner swaps the edges, if I do that before placing the edges into position my edges memo won't work).



I use M2/OP and I do edges, corners, (parity), corners, edges with D' L2 D M2 D' L2 D for parity. The main difference is: If I have parity, I need to swap the odd edges (if I don't have parity I swap the even edges).


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## leudcfa (Apr 22, 2018)

What is the easiest way to deal with twisted corners in Orozco?


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## Underwatercuber (Apr 22, 2018)

leudcfa said:


> What is the easiest way to deal with twisted corners in Orozco?


The easiest way would be to shoot to a sticker on the piece and then another one. For example to twist the UBL piece clockwise you could execute UFR > BUL > UBR, UFR > UBR > UBL


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## a person who cubes (Apr 22, 2018)

Killernerd24 said:


> People generally flick or push BD with their ring fingers.



I mean the M that goes in the direction of R'


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## Underwatercuber (Apr 22, 2018)

a person who cubes said:


> I mean the M that goes in the direction of R'


Rw’ R or flick/push BD


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## TheGrayCuber (Apr 23, 2018)

a person who cubes said:


> I mean the M that goes in the direction of R'



Flick/push FD with your pinky.


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## a person who cubes (Apr 23, 2018)

Underwatercuber said:


> Rw’ R or flick/push BD





Killernerd24 said:


> Flick/push FD with your pinky.



is it okay to push UT with your left middle finger


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## TheGrayCuber (Apr 23, 2018)

a person who cubes said:


> is it okay to push UT with your left middle finger



It's okay to do anything, but I don't know what you mean by UT


----------



## a person who cubes (Apr 24, 2018)

Killernerd24 said:


> It's okay to do anything, but I don't know what you mean by UT


 I dont really know what pieces are called what but it is the blue sticker of blue-white with white top and green front


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## TheGrayCuber (Apr 24, 2018)

a person who cubes said:


> I dont really know what pieces are called what but it is the blue sticker of blue-white with white top and green front



Yeah, I do that occasionally with my index finger. Middle finger would work fine

That piece is BU, since the sticker is on the back, and the piece is also on the up face.


----------



## Prabal Baishya (May 7, 2018)

Almost after 6 months of blindsolving, I have finally decided to learn 3-Style.
I have learnt how to do pure comms, comms with setup moves and A9s.
However I am still not implementing 3-Style in my solves as a begginer I am required to figure out 3 cycles for the three corner stickers( in speffz that would be the letters P, K and V) with all other combination of the corner stickers. There are 108 cycles(I am not counting the inverse cycles).
My question is how to make all these cycles automatic and how long does it take to have these cycles at the finger tips so that I can use it in my solves?
Thats all for now.


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## Hazel (Jun 7, 2018)

When I have parity, is it best to solve the edges so that the A piece is in the D position and vise versa to avoid having to do a parity algorithm before corners (M2/OP), or should I just solve them into their actual solved positions and then do parity?


----------



## TheGrayCuber (Jun 7, 2018)

Aerma said:


> When I have parity, is it best to solve the edges so that the A piece is in the D position and vise versa to avoid having to do a parity algorithm before corners (M2/OP), or should I just solve them into their actual solved positions and then do parity?



Solving them swapped is a great way to do it, but you have to memo corners first to know if you have parity, and it can be difficult to implement. But it is definitely worth it. Give it a shot!


----------



## Hazel (Jun 7, 2018)

Killernerd24 said:


> Solving them swapped is a great way to do it, but you have to memo corners first to know if you have parity, and it can be difficult to implement. But it is definitely worth it. Give it a shot!


I do memo corners first so that shouldn't be an issue  thanks for the reply!


----------



## newtonbase (Jun 7, 2018)

Aerma said:


> When I have parity, is it best to solve the edges so that the A piece is in the D position and vise versa to avoid having to do a parity algorithm before corners (M2/OP), or should I just solve them into their actual solved positions and then do parity?


I do it this way for 3BLD, 4BLD and 5BLD It's really easy to get used to. You should definitely give it a try.


----------



## Hazel (Jun 7, 2018)

Killernerd24 said:


> Solving them swapped is a great way to do it, but you have to memo corners first to know if you have parity, and it can be difficult to implement. But it is definitely worth it. Give it a shot!





newtonbase said:


> I do it this way for 3BLD, 4BLD and 5BLD It's really easy to get used to. You should definitely give it a try.



My first try with this parity-avoiding method was a success aside from two flipped edges but those didn't have anything to do with the new technique.


----------



## TheGrayCuber (Jun 7, 2018)

newtonbase said:


> I do it this way for 3BLD, 4BLD and 5BLD It's really easy to get used to. You should definitely give it a try.



I’m not sure how that’s possible for 4BLD. Please explain.


----------



## pinser (Jun 7, 2018)

Killernerd24 said:


> I’m not sure how that’s possible for 4BLD. Please explain.


swap wings. do midges too for 5BLD


----------



## TheGrayCuber (Jun 8, 2018)

pinser said:


> swap wings. do midges too for 5BLD



Ohhhhh. That seems like it would not be worth the time save. You wouldn’t have to do an extra alg but I already get confused on occasion doing the swap on 3x3, that would be a nightmare with wings.


----------



## meekrose (Jun 15, 2018)

So I have been learning blindfold solving from the past few days. I have already learned how to solved the corners blindfolded. However, I am stuck on edges. I tried M2 but I find the setup moves and all the special cases a bit difficult. Is it okay if I use Old Pochmann for edges? Or should I stick to learning M2?


----------



## mark49152 (Jun 15, 2018)

meekrose said:


> So I have been learning blindfold solving from the past few days. I have already learned how to solved the corners blindfolded. However, I am stuck on edges. I tried M2 but I find the setup moves and all the special cases a bit difficult. Is it okay if I use Old Pochmann for edges? Or should I stick to learning M2?


Stick to learning M2. You'll get there with a little perseverance, and it's worth it.


----------



## TheGrayCuber (Jun 15, 2018)

meekrose said:


> So I have been learning blindfold solving from the past few days. I have already learned how to solved the corners blindfolded. However, I am stuck on edges. I tried M2 but I find the setup moves and all the special cases a bit difficult. Is it okay if I use Old Pochmann for edges? Or should I stick to learning M2?



If you are really having trouble with M2, OP is not a terrible way to go. Since you already know OP for corners, edges wouldn’t be too hard. After getting a few successes with OP you’d understand BLD better and be more motivated to learn M2.


----------



## Duncan Bannon (Jun 15, 2018)

Can I use Y perm for corners and OP?

What is the best way to solve, corners then edges or edges then corners, and what about memorizing it? Thanks.


----------



## TheGrayCuber (Jun 17, 2018)

Duncan Bannon said:


> Can I use Y perm for corners and OP?
> 
> What is the best way to solve, corners then edges or edges then corners, and what about memorizing it? Thanks.



Y-Perms are generally the alg used for corners in OP. 
There is no real consensus as to whether you should solve edges or corners first when you’re first starting out. Just do what is more comfortable or what makes sense. I would recommend to memorize in the opposite order of what you solve. So if you solve corners first, memorize them second, or vice verse.


----------



## __init__.py (Jun 21, 2018)

What method does Gianfranco use? Can anybody tell me?


----------



## h2f (Jun 21, 2018)

3style with UF and UFR as a buffers: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1RQWcuEd4pWL7egwQ00zuJDzYCKzQC6hlAdz0DH4jwWk/edit#gid=0


----------



## pinser (Jun 21, 2018)

h2f said:


> 3style with UF and UFR as a buffers: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1RQWcuEd4pWL7egwQ00zuJDzYCKzQC6hlAdz0DH4jwWk/edit#gid=0


I'm not sure if his "3-style" falls under the same category of everyone else's "3-style" lol. He also uses a lot more buffers than UF and UFR


----------



## h2f (Jun 21, 2018)

pinser said:


> I'm not sure if his "3-style" falls under the same category of everyone else's "3-style" lol. He also uses a lot more buffers than UF and UFR



I'm sure you are an expert in this.


----------



## GC1998 (Jul 1, 2018)

The original way to learn M2 seems to be with all the 'B' move setups, but I first learnt it with the better wide move setups. I'm learning r2 on 4BLD and wondering if similar "nicer" algorithms exist?


----------



## leudcfa (Jul 2, 2018)

I think this video provides the best 4bld r2 tricks.


----------



## Paulcuber3 (Jul 5, 2018)

Could someone explain to me how you write down the number of targets you had to solve in a 3bld solve for example? I see people saying stuff like 10'/7 or something like that, but what does the ' mean? Is that if you have parity? How do you say if you have a twisted corner or a flipped edge?


----------



## Ernest Fowler (Jul 7, 2018)

What is the difference between 3-style, BH and 3OP?

Also, what is better?


----------



## sqAree (Jul 7, 2018)

All of those methods are 3-cycles.
BH is move-optimal 3-cycles.
3OP orients everything first and then uses a reduced subset of 3-cycles.
The best is to just use speed-optimal 3-cycles.


----------



## mark49152 (Jul 7, 2018)

Always check the dates on what you read. If you're reading about 3OP or BH as good choices for BLD it was probably written 8+ years ago. These days, they are rarely if ever recommended and speed-optimised 3-style is undoubtedly the way to go.


----------



## JustAnotherGenericCuber (Jul 7, 2018)

Paulcuber3 said:


> Could someone explain to me how you write down the number of targets you had to solve in a 3bld solve for example? I see people saying stuff like 10'/7 or something like that, but what does the ' mean? Is that if you have parity? How do you say if you have a twisted corner or a flipped edge?


The ' means you have a flipped edge or twisted corner


----------



## Paulcuber3 (Jul 9, 2018)

JustAnotherGenericCuber said:


> The ' means you have a flipped edge or twisted corner


got it. So if you have two flipped edges or two twisted corners, do you do a '' after the number then?


----------



## JustAnotherGenericCuber (Jul 9, 2018)

Paulcuber3 said:


> got it. So if you have two flipped edges or two twisted corners, do you do a '' after the number then?


Yep


----------



## WillyTheWizard (Jul 11, 2018)

Memorizing is so confusing


----------



## MCubing4Life (Jul 26, 2018)

I’m relatively new to Blindsolving, so I was wondering what is the easiest, and most efficient way to memorize the pieces. Also, any ways to expand my memory capabilities.


----------



## abunickabhi (Jul 29, 2018)

Hope it helps:














I know the video lacks in few directions , and you wont be outright be able to improve out of the video , but it might help a bit..


----------



## FluxDigital01 (Sep 12, 2018)

I am interested in blind solving, so I went and looked up some tutorials and understood everything except how to start a new cycle.
Can someone help me?


----------



## Jacck (Sep 12, 2018)

FluxDigital01 said:


> I am interested in blind solving, so I went and looked up some tutorials and understood everything except how to start a new cycle.
> Can someone help me?


Let me have a try:

In bld you do, easily spoken, exchange two cubies. You start with the cubie in the buffer and exchange it with the cubie where it (the cubie in the buffer) has to go to. Then the cubie in that place will be in the buffer and you continue till the buffer is solved (you don't have to memo the buffer-cubie at end, it will be there automatically).
What if the buffer is solved, but there are other unsolved cubies left?
You could take the position of an unsolved cubie as new buffer ("floating buffer") to work from, but this is hard.

If you only want to use your standard buffer (cos you have learned all setups for this place - "you only know, how to work with this one"), you start a new cycle and just get an unsolved cubie in the buffer and then start normal business again, until the buffer is solved again.

If you want to sort numbers and just interchange from buffer Position 1:

you start with:
3 5 4 1 2
pos 1 switched with pos 3
4 5 3 1 2
pos 1 switched with pos 4
1 5 3 4 2
buffer is solved!
new cycle:
pos 1 switched with pos 2
5 1 3 4 2
pos 1 switched with pos 5
2 1 3 4 5
pos 1 switched with pos 2
1 2 3 4 5
Done!
You would memo 3,4,2,5,2.


----------



## FluxDigital01 (Sep 12, 2018)

I understand that, but I was looking for help about starting a new cycle.


----------



## JustAnotherGenericCuber (Sep 12, 2018)

"you start a new cycle and just get an unsolved cubie in the buffer and then start normal business again, until the buffer is solved again."


----------



## FluxDigital01 (Sep 12, 2018)

Thanks!


----------



## One Wheel (Nov 23, 2018)

What is the best source for 4BLD algs? I’ve watched a couple of tutorials, I understand the concepts, I just need the algs in written form so I can memorize them. I think I need:
- r2 parity 
- U2 D target alg
- r2 M-slice algs
- U2 U target algs

I am comfortable with OP corners, and I believe I can intuit R and L targets for r2 and R, L, F, and B targets for U2.


----------



## cubeshepherd (Nov 23, 2018)

One Wheel said:


> What is the best source for 4BLD algs? I’ve watched a couple of tutorials, I understand the concepts, I just need the algs in written form so I can memorize them. I think I need:
> - r2 parity
> - U2 D target alg
> - r2 M-slice algs
> ...


The algs that I learned for 4 BLD, like you are asking about I learned from Cory's 4 BLD YouTube videos on the whole series that he put out. I am not sure if they are the best algs out there, but I was able to memorize them really easily and get fast with them after some practice so they will work if you are just looking for the algs for now. And just so you know the cases that Cory talks about in the video are written out on the descriptions, and the 2 videos that have the algs are Part 3 and Part 5, both of which are below.


Spoiler: Part 3 - Center algs













Spoiler: Part 5 - wing algs


----------



## DS CUBER (Nov 23, 2018)

I am still a beginner speed cuber and i want to learn 3BLD. 
Any recommendations into how to get started would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks.


----------



## Skewbed (Nov 23, 2018)

DS CUBER said:


> I am still a beginner speed cuber and i want to learn 3BLD.
> Any recommendations into how to get started would be greatly appreciated.
> Thanks.



I would recommend SpeedCubeReview's Old Pochmann tutorial (https://www.speedcubereview.com/blind-solving-algorithms.html). It requires three algorithms (T-Perm, Modified Y-Perm, and R-Perm).

The hardest part my first 3BLD success was memorization. I did not time it, but memo was probably about 10 minutes. Now my memo is down to about 4 minutes (which is still bad). I would recommend (to myself and you) to make sure you use a good memo system.

With execution, make sure to turn slowly until you are comfortable with an algorithm and target before trying going fast. One wrong turn in the middle of the solve will mess up everything else.


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## JustAnotherGenericCuber (Nov 24, 2018)

One Wheel said:


> What is the best source for 4BLD algs? I’ve watched a couple of tutorials, I understand the concepts, I just need the algs in written form so I can memorize them. I think I need:
> - r2 parity
> - U2 D target alg
> - r2 M-slice algs
> ...


I used J Perm's tutorial for them


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## Alex Gold (Nov 29, 2018)

I was wondering if anyone else used my way of memorizing some letter pairs. Basically, IQ is Albert Einstein in my head (he had a large IQ) but if I want to memorize QI instead then I just picture Albert Einstein turning his back towards me. 
Is this method too confusing?Or should I use a unique image for QI? I've only used it for a few difficult letter pairs whose reversed letter pairs are easier to visualize for me ( like XR is difficult to form a word for me but RX is just a T-Rex. Thus, XR is a T-Rex turning his back to me). I've only managed to do 4x4 BLD once so I'm not sure if memorizing like this will get confusing to me as I try my hand on larger NxN Blindsolving and I'll have more letter pairs to memorize.


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## Clément B. (Nov 29, 2018)

Hi everyone ! I use M2 for 3BLD and I just hate parity, like a lot of people I think.
But I just realized something : If you execute corners then edges, you never get parity !! 
I just wanted to know if I discovered something or if everybody does this.
Thanks !


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## willtri4 (Nov 29, 2018)

What do you mean? If the scramble has an odd number of corner swaps and an odd number of edge swaps, you still have to deal with parity somehow regardless of what order you solve things in.


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## Clément B. (Nov 29, 2018)

willtri4 said:


> What do you mean? If the scramble has an odd number of corner swaps and an odd number of edge swaps, you still have to deal with parity somehow regardless of what order you solve things in.


I know but I tried like 50 times and didn't get parity even once ...


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## Thom S. (Nov 29, 2018)

Clément B. said:


> I know but I tried like 50 times and didn't get parity even once ...



I know exactly what you did. You sightetly solved Corners with Old Pochmann WITHOUT caring how many targets you did, right. By doing an odd number of Y Perms you accidentally solved Parity without knowing it plus you swapped UB and UL but it doesn't matter since you did sighted solves.


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## Clément B. (Nov 29, 2018)

Thom S. said:


> I know exactly what you did. You sightetly solved Corners with Old Pochmann WITHOUT caring how many targets you did, right. By doing an odd number of Y Perms you accidentally solved Parity without knowing it plus you swapped UB and UL but it doesn't matter since you did sighted solves.


Ahhhh ...
Ok thanks ! 
I think I will still do this order for blind but now I understand !
Thank you


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## mark49152 (Nov 29, 2018)

Clément B. said:


> Hi everyone ! I use M2 for 3BLD and I just hate parity, like a lot of people I think.
> But I just realized something : If you execute corners then edges, you never get parity !!
> I just wanted to know if I discovered something or if everybody does this.
> Thanks !


Like others said, you still have parity, you just didn't notice that you swapped the UB & UL edges. But my question is, why do you hate M2 parity? Just do (D' L2 D) M2 (D' L2 D). Nobody loves it but it's not a big deal.


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## TheGrayCuber (Nov 30, 2018)

Alex Gold said:


> I was wondering if anyone else used my way of memorizing some letter pairs. Basically, IQ is Albert Einstein in my head (he had a large IQ) but if I want to memorize QI instead then I just picture Albert Einstein turning his back towards me.
> Is this method too confusing?Or should I use a unique image for QI? I've only used it for a few difficult letter pairs whose reversed letter pairs are easier to visualize for me ( like XR is difficult to form a word for me but RX is just a T-Rex. Thus, XR is a T-Rex turning his back to me). I've only managed to do 4x4 BLD once so I'm not sure if memorizing like this will get confusing to me as I try my hand on larger NxN Blindsolving and I'll have more letter pairs to memorize.



In the long run it will be better for you to just go ahead and come up with completely different letter pairs. When you’re memorizing a lot, the images can get vague. You’ll know the basic idea of what it was, but if you have two pairs that are similar, they can get confused. It’s best to make each pair distinct. 
QI could be quill, someone who is quiet, etc
XR could be X-Ray


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## TheGrayCuber (Nov 30, 2018)

Clément B. said:


> Ahhhh ...
> Ok thanks !
> I think I will still do this order for blind but now I understand !
> Thank you



If you’re going to do that order of corners then edges, remember that UB and UL will be switched after you execute corners. You’ll need to swap them during memo or find another workaround


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## Alex Gold (Dec 8, 2018)

TheGrayCuber said:


> In the long run it will be better for you to just go ahead and come up with completely different letter pairs. When you’re memorizing a lot, the images can get vague. You’ll know the basic idea of what it was, but if you have two pairs that are similar, they can get confused. It’s best to make each pair distinct.
> QI could be quill, someone who is quiet, etc
> XR could be X-Ray


Yeah, that sounds about right. Do you recommend learning words for each letter pair or coming with them on the fly? Currently, I just come up with images on the fly


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## TheGrayCuber (Dec 9, 2018)

Alex Gold said:


> Yeah, that sounds about right. Do you recommend learning words for each letter pair or coming with them on the fly? Currently, I just come up with images on the fly



Come up with them on the fly for the most part. If you absolutely can’t figure something out, then search it up. That will happen a lot with J, Q, and X.


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## BenBergen (Dec 16, 2018)

I just began learning 3-style for edges, and I have a question about parity. For corners my buffer is UBL and I use setups to a Y-perm to solve parity. This swaps the UB and UL edges. I execute edges first though, so I need to set these two edges up to be swapped. From what I understand, the two ways of doing this are:
1) In memo trace the UB and UL edges to each others' spots so they end up swapped
2) Learn algorithms to simultaneously shoot to the final edge target and swap the UB and UL edges (Graham has a list of algs for this here) 

I'm leaning towards 2 since I'd rather not have to switch where I memo pieces on the fly. But I can't find a list of algorithms besides Graham's; it seems a lot of top cubers do 1. Any thoughts on which way is better?


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## Thom S. (Dec 16, 2018)

BenBergen said:


> I just began learning 3-style for edges, and I have a question about parity. For corners my buffer is UBL and I use setups to a Y-perm to solve parity. This swaps the UB and UL edges. I execute edges first though, so I need to set these two edges up to be swapped. From what I understand, the two ways of doing this are:
> 1) In memo trace the UB and UL edges to each others' spots so they end up swapped
> 2) Learn algorithms to simultaneously shoot to the final edge target and swap the UB and UL edges (Graham has a list of algs for this here)
> 
> I'm leaning towards 2 since I'd rather not have to switch where I memo pieces on the fly. But I can't find a list of algorithms besides Graham's; it seems a lot of top cubers do 1. Any thoughts on which way is better?



This video explains why more people use UB-UL Swap for 3BLD 

Basically it's saving one Algorithm vs. saving one Letter Pair


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## BenBergen (Dec 16, 2018)

Thom S. said:


> This video explains why more people use UB-UL Swap for 3BLD
> 
> Basically it's saving one Algorithm vs. saving one Letter Pair


Thanks, that helps


----------



## M O (Jan 3, 2019)

(I do OP corners and M2 Edges. Memo Edges, Memo Corners, Solve Corners, Solve Edges.)
I learned the basics of BLD 6 months ago, and have been practicing BLD regularly since 2 months now, with absolutely no improvement. 
My solves always take 6-7 minutes.
I've been looking through threads for help but the only tips that I found were "do more solves" or suggestions to make a list of letter pairs.

1. Is 6 minutes very slow or is that normal for less than a year of BLD-Solving?
2. Does anyone have tips how I can improve my times?

Thanks in advance.


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## willtri4 (Jan 3, 2019)

6 minutes isn't that bad. What are your memo vs. execution splits typically? The two main ways to get faster are to memo faster, or to reduce pauses in execution. (There's also switching to 3-style, but I don't know if that's the best move for you yet).


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## pglewis (Jan 3, 2019)

2a) I suggest memo'ing corners then edges, execute edges then corners. Corner memo is shorter and usually easier to retain longer. 

2b) Push your memo outside of your comfort zone. You'll fail a lot... if you don't, push it even harder.


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## h2f (Jan 4, 2019)

M O said:


> 2. Does anyone have tips how I can improve my times?



How do you practice? How many solves per session? Etc.


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## M O (Jan 4, 2019)

pglewis said:


> 1) I suggest memo'ing corners then edges, execute edges then corners. Corner memo is shorter and usually easier to retain longer.
> .



how does parity work if I do edges first?


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## M O (Jan 4, 2019)

h2f said:


> How do you practice? How many solves per session? Etc.



how should I practice?


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## pglewis (Jan 4, 2019)

M O said:


> how does parity work if I do edges first?



(D' L2 D) M2 (D' L2 D)


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## h2f (Jan 4, 2019)

M O said:


> how should I practice?



I dont know if I dont know how you practice.


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## pglewis (Jan 4, 2019)

M O said:


> how should I practice?



Chances are that your memo is the place you can drop the most time quickly but it would be good to get some typical splits for your memo time vs. execution time. I've never gotten very fast even at my peak but I could execute M2/OP at 1:30 or better. If you're a _lot_ slower than that on execution then you might consider some focus on sighted execution drills. 

Otherwise it's probably all about faster memo. Keep in mind that with corner/edge, edge/corner order you only have to retain your edge memo long enough to execute it so you can probably get some serious gains pushing yourself on edge memo alone, getting rid of any review and letting it rip. Dissect what is taking most of your time during memo and you can likely find an area or two to focus on to get the most bang for buck.


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## M O (Jan 6, 2019)

@pglewis @h2f @willtri4 
I just got a pb of 5:53 with solving edges first! 
Splits:
Memo: 4:30
Execution: 1:23


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## willtri4 (Jan 6, 2019)

M O said:


> @pglewis @h2f @willtri4
> I just got a pb of 5:53 with solving edges first!
> Splits:
> Memo: 4:30
> Execution: 1:23


Nice job! Memo is definitely what you need to work on. For that, mostly just do a bunch of solves, rushing memo as much as possible. It's ok if you fail a lot, that's part of improving in BLD. You can also use http://csclub.uwaterloo.ca/~krmatthe/3x3x3.cgi to do memo-only (or execution-only) solves.


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## oneshot (Jan 6, 2019)

Dumb question: How exactly are you guys finding your splits? Video yourself, or looking at the timer right before you put on your blindfold?


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## Mike Hughey (Jan 6, 2019)

oneshot said:


> Dumb question: How exactly are you guys finding your splits? Video yourself, or looking at the timer right before you put on your blindfold?


Mostly through using software timers that use splits. But for a while I used a stopwatch, and then I always looked at the timer before putting on the blindfold.

Videoing is great, but it takes too long if you have to go back and review each solve. Videoing is mainly good for looking for ways to improve the physical solving part.


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## M O (Jan 6, 2019)

oneshot said:


> Dumb question: How exactly are you guys finding your splits? Video yourself, or looking at the timer right before you put on your blindfold?



i simply start 2 timers and stop one when i begin execution. Then you have full time and memo time, and you can calculate execution time


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## pglewis (Jan 7, 2019)

oneshot said:


> Dumb question: How exactly are you guys finding your splits? Video yourself, or looking at the timer right before you put on your blindfold?



csTimer has the option under Options => Timer => multi-phase, set to 2. First spacebar will start timing for memo, second spacebar will start timing for execution, and third spacebar will stop timing. Beware not to double-tap space or hold it long enough to engage key-repeat or you'll inadvertently stop the timer after memo, ask me how I know.


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## M O (Jan 8, 2019)

new pb: 5:39
question: do you memorise flipped pieces separately, or visually, or do you just treat them as the other pieces, e.g. if the UBL corner is flipped memorize "BQ"?


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## willtri4 (Jan 8, 2019)

M O said:


> new pb: 5:39
> question: do you memorise flipped pieces separately, or visually, or do you just treat them as the other pieces, e.g. if the UBL corner is flipped memorize "BQ"?


I do flips/twists visually and usually execute them first.


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## M O (Jan 8, 2019)

y'all are so insane, just got a 4:35. stuck for 3 months and now I cut 1:30 off my pb in under a week, thanks!
How do you execute Q (BU Edge, assuming you use M2 with DF as your buffer) ?
Doing U R2 U' B' R' B M2 B' R B U R2 U' feels so long and slow with regrip and all.


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## sqAree (Jan 8, 2019)

M O said:


> y'all are so insane, just got a 4:35. stuck for 3 months and now I cut 1:30 off my pb in under a week, thanks!
> How do you execute Q (BU Edge, assuming you use M2 with DF as your buffer) ?
> Doing U R2 U' B' R' B M2 B' R B U R2 U' feels so long and slow with regrip and all.



(U' M')3 U' M (U' M')3 U' M


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## pglewis (Jan 8, 2019)

(U' M')x3, (U' M), (U' M')x4
or
(U M')x3, (U M), (U M')x4


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## pglewis (Jan 8, 2019)

M O said:


> y'all are so insane, just got a 4:35. stuck for 3 months and now I cut 1:30 off my pb in under a week, thanks!



Congrats btw! Still a lot of ground for you to gain on faster memo but if you get much faster I'll have to start hitting you up for pointers. My PB is still over 3mins, myself, but I've been planning on a big 3bld push soon.


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## Thom S. (Jan 8, 2019)

M O said:


> y'all are so insane, just got a 4:35. stuck for 3 months and now I cut 1:30 off my pb in under a week, thanks!
> How do you execute Q (BU Edge, assuming you use M2 with DF as your buffer) ?
> Doing U R2 U' B' R' B M2 B' R B U R2 U' feels so long and slow with regrip and all.



(U' M')3 U' M (U' M')4

Edit:
I'm apparently too slow


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## M O (Jan 12, 2019)

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/362934664
new PB: 3:05
1:50 memo
1:15 execution

Should i learn advanced M2 yet or still just work on my memo?


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## Underwatercuber (Jan 12, 2019)

M O said:


> https://www.twitch.tv/videos/362934664
> new PB: 3:05
> 1:50 memo
> 1:15 execution
> ...


You always need to be working on memo. If you are comfortable then yeah I would suggest a new exec method, probably U2, orozco or TuRBo for edges and then U2, orozco or eka for corners. Which one you learn kind of depends on how much you want to get into bld


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## pglewis (Jan 13, 2019)

M O said:


> https://www.twitch.tv/videos/362934664
> new PB: 3:05
> 1:50 memo
> 1:15 execution
> ...



You're roughly at the same stage as I am or faster at this point so I'll just share my thoughts on my own state. 

Memo: for me, I consider memo something I can continue improving forever. I figure if my memo is over 15 seconds for 3bld then I can probably still make improvements . I'm more interested in mbld in the longer term than fast 3bld but if I were out to push my 3bld memo faster I'd work very hard on using audio memo for edges rather than images and eventually full audio memo. There are several things going on during memo that can eat time: speed of tracing, sticker to letter conversion, assigning image/audio to a letter pair quickly, things not retained triggering a review. You have to examine which of those bits are eating the most time for your memo and come up with some focused exercises to address them. Wash, rinse, repeat. 

Execution: advanced M2 techniques are supplemental, you can incorporate new tricks piece-meal whenever you are comfortable with your current execution. If you are out for real speed then you will probably want to look into comms eventually to cut down the moves. That is a big rabbit hole and something that takes an appreciable amount of time and effort but if that's where you think you will eventually land I believe it's a good idea to start learning the concepts now. It'll probably a while before you can use comms in a solve so my attitude is the sooner you work on it, the sooner you'll get there. Personally, I'll probably skip any intermediate/transition methods like Orozco because it makes more sense to me to put that work into getting a head-start on comms. I know @openseas used Orozco to transition to comms so I'm curious what his opinion is coming from actual experience.


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## mark49152 (Jan 13, 2019)

M O said:


> https://www.twitch.tv/videos/362934664
> new PB: 3:05
> 1:50 memo
> 1:15 execution
> ...


Good progress, well done. Why not do both? You'll be sub-2 before long.


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## M O (Jan 16, 2019)

mark49152 said:


> Good progress, well done. Why not do both? You'll be sub-2 before long.



pb 2:11
memo 1:15
execution 56


for sub-2 I need memo and execution both sub-1 right?


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## willtri4 (Jan 16, 2019)

M O said:


> pb 2:11
> memo 1:15
> execution 56
> 
> ...


Not necessarily, but it would definitely help. 1:05 memo and 50 execution would be 1:55, but it'll be easier if you can get your memo sub-1.


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## mark49152 (Jan 16, 2019)

M O said:


> pb 2:11
> memo 1:15
> execution 56
> for sub-2 I need memo and execution both sub-1 right?


Nice job. No, you need them to add up to sub-1 . Generally though, they should be split about 50/50 and it's a good idea to aim for that (until you reach about 1:30, beyond which you should expect memo to become significantly shorter than execution).


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## Skewbed (Jan 17, 2019)

Is audio for edges and corners a good idea? I currently average around 5:00 on 3BLD and use audio edges and pictures for corners?


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## TheGrayCuber (Jan 18, 2019)

Skewbed said:


> Is audio for edges and corners a good idea? I currently average around 5:00 on 3BLD and use audio edges and pictures for corners?



I personally had problems using audio for both when I averaged around 1 minute, and I still use images for corners at around 35 seconds.


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## bigballerstatus (Feb 1, 2019)

Hey! im a BLD noob here just trying to get into the world of blindfolded solving. I have a doubt.
while using old pochmann method, what do I do when the piece in the buffer position is already in the right spot but the cube isnt fully solved yet?

please help a fellow cuber out here! thanks.


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## Thom S. (Feb 1, 2019)

You break into a new Cycle
You imagine a circle with all the pieces in that Cycle in it. You go into that cycle and you leave that cycle.
Now, as an example, do R U R' D R U' R' D'. Your Buffer is solved, but there are still pieces left to solve. These three unsolved pieces make up your circle so you break into it by shooting to one of these pieces(it doesn't matter which one, you will develop preferences later). Now you can solve pieces again but remember that you need to shoot to that piece you started the cycle with again in order to leave the cycle


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## bigballerstatus (Feb 1, 2019)

Thom S. said:


> You break into a new Cycle
> You imagine a circle with all the pieces in that Cycle in it. You go into that cycle and you leave that cycle.
> Now, as an example, do R U R' D R U' R' D'. Your Buffer is solved, but there are still pieces left to solve. These three unsolved pieces make up your circle so you break into it by shooting to one of these pieces(it doesn't matter which one, you will develop preferences later). Now you can solve pieces again but remember that you need to shoot to that piece you started the cycle with again in order to leave the cycle




so while starting the new cycle, i should take a take a new buffer, or go ahead with the same one.


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## Thom S. (Feb 1, 2019)

bigballerstatus said:


> so while starting the new cycle, i should take a take a new buffer, or go ahead with the same one.



You stick to your Buffer and shoot to the new piece.

Technically there is a very advanced Method called Floating Buffers where you use a different buffer but that's not the discussion for now


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## bigballerstatus (Feb 2, 2019)

Thom S. said:


> You stick to your Buffer and shoot to the new piece.
> 
> Technically there is a very advanced Method called Floating Buffers where you use a different buffer but that's not the discussion for now


 
thanks a lot dude! this has been very helpfull


----------



## cubeshepherd (Feb 7, 2019)

Seeing as I am trying to get back into 4x4 BLD+ I was wondering if there is a efficient way to solve the wings on a 4x4 without having to do the r2 double flick (like when doing M move on 3x3)? I was thinking that I could do Rw2 R2, but that does not seem to great/efficient, hence why I am wondering if there is a better way, or is that the best way. Additionally, this question can also apply to M2 on 3x3, so any help/advice would be much appreciated, since at the moment I can really only do OP/OP. Thanks in advance.


----------



## willtri4 (Feb 7, 2019)

cubeshepherd said:


> Seeing as I am trying to get back into 4x4 BLD+ I was wondering if there is a efficient way to solve the wings on a 4x4 without having to do the r2 double flick (like when doing M move on 3x3)? I was thinking that I could do Rw2 R2, but that does not seem to great/efficient, hence why I am wondering if there is a better way, or is that the best way. Additionally, this question can also apply to M2 on 3x3, so any help/advice would be much appreciated, since at the moment I can really only do OP/OP. Thanks in advance.


----------



## schapel (Feb 7, 2019)

cubeshepherd said:


> Seeing as I am trying to get back into 4x4 BLD+ I was wondering if there is a efficient way to solve the wings on a 4x4 without having to do the r2 double flick (like when doing M move on 3x3)? I was thinking that I could do Rw2 R2, but that does not seem to great/efficient, hence why I am wondering if there is a better way, or is that the best way. Additionally, this question can also apply to M2 on 3x3, so any help/advice would be much appreciated, since at the moment I can really only do OP/OP. Thanks in advance.


Ishaan/gianfranco style, like M2 on 3bld


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## MysticZ8 (Feb 22, 2019)

Hey Im Blake and i am a big noob at BLD and I need help learning setup moves


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## willtri4 (Feb 22, 2019)

MysticZ8 said:


> Hey Im Blake and i am a big noob at BLD and I need help learning setup moves


Any tutorial that's any good is going to explain how setup moves work. Noah's tutorial is the best.


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## M O (Feb 26, 2019)

is U2/r2/OP any good for 4bld, or would you recommend different methods to begin?
(i use OP/M2 for 3bld, average 2:30)


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## mark49152 (Feb 26, 2019)

M O said:


> is U2/r2/OP any good for 4bld, or would you recommend different methods to begin?
> (i use OP/M2 for 3bld, average 2:30)


U2/r2/OP is a good choice to begin with. You can work on memo and fluid execution and still get quite fast. Ultimately, 3style will give you more efficient execution, so as soon as you feel ready, it's a good idea to start working some comms into your solves. Centre comms are an easy place to start, and make sure you are using advanced r2 techniques, as those will also give you some easy comms.


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## Roy88 (Feb 26, 2019)

Can someone explain me how to solve 3x3 bld
I dunno how


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## the best d1mnd (Feb 26, 2019)

Roy88 said:


> Can someone explain me how to solve 3x3 bld
> I dunno how


There are many tutorials on YouTube about that. But in general you change colors to letters, make words with this letters (memorizing words is easier than memorizing colors) and then you solving cube with pll algs using set up moves


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## Clément B. (Feb 27, 2019)

mark49152 said:


> Centre comms are an easy place to start, and make sure you are using advanced r2 techniques, as those will also give you some easy comms.


Speaking of that, is there a list of algs for center comms ?


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## mark49152 (Feb 27, 2019)

Clément B. said:


> Speaking of that, is there a list of algs for center comms ?


You can find an index of lists here: https://bestsiteever.ru/tables/

However, for centres it's generally best to figure them out intuitively and look up algs just for bad cases.


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## weatherman223 (Mar 1, 2019)

Isn’t there some sort of counting rule for parity on OP OP? I got a DNF by parity the other day so I’m just curious.


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## willtri4 (Mar 1, 2019)

weatherman223 said:


> Isn’t there some sort of counting rule for parity on OP OP? I got a DNF by parity the other day so I’m just curious.


Not sure what you mean. If there's an odd number of corner or edge targets, you have parity.


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## weatherman223 (Mar 1, 2019)

willtri4 said:


> Not sure what you mean. If there's an odd number of corner or edge targets, you have parity.



I heard a formula on reddit that counted in cycle breaks and twisted corners as well, which is why I’m confused


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## M O (Mar 1, 2019)

weatherman223 said:


> I heard a formula on reddit that counted in cycle breaks and twisted corners as well, which is why I’m confused


twists give you 2 letters so if you memorize everything in letter pairs you will know if you have an even (no parity) or odd (parity) number of targets


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## willtri4 (Mar 1, 2019)

weatherman223 said:


> I heard a formula on reddit that counted in cycle breaks and twisted corners as well, which is why I’m confused


That formula checks to see if you have the right number of targets, it doesn't really have anything to do with parity.


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## weatherman223 (Mar 1, 2019)

willtri4 said:


> That formula checks to see if you have the right number of targets, it doesn't really have anything to do with parity.




OH! I’m super sorry, just realized my mistake. I confused the formula for parity haha.


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## M O (Mar 10, 2019)

im currently learning 4bld and having problems with the center algs for the U face (using U2, Buffer UBl). Letter A is the buffer, letter C is simply U2, but for B and D the algs seem really hard to grasp for me. Anyone have easy algs for them?


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## Underwatercuber (Mar 10, 2019)

M O said:


> im currently learning 4bld and having problems with the center algs for the U face (using U2, Buffer UBr). Letter A is the buffer, letter C is simply U2, but for B and D the algs seem really hard to grasp for me. Anyone have easy algs for them?


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## M O (Mar 11, 2019)

Underwatercuber said:


> View attachment 10094


different buffer  but thanks


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## Underwatercuber (Mar 11, 2019)

M O said:


> different buffer  but thanks


UBR?


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## M O (Mar 12, 2019)

Underwatercuber said:


> UBR?


my buffer is UBl, sorry I misstyped


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## Underwatercuber (Mar 12, 2019)

M O said:


> my buffer is UBl, sorry I misstyped


You could mirror the algs I said if you find them any good, if not you could use these


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## M O (Mar 12, 2019)

Underwatercuber said:


> You could mirror the algs I said if you find them any good, if not you could use these



thanks!


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## pi.cubed (Mar 19, 2019)

I'm looking for a scrambler to help me practice audio memo for 7 words - basically one which always gives scrambles for which the edge solution requires seven 3-cycles. Does anyone know of such a tool?


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## Underwatercuber (Mar 19, 2019)

pi.cubed said:


> I'm looking for a scrambler to help me practice audio memo for 7 words - basically one which always gives scrambles for which the edge solution requires seven 3-cycles. Does anyone know of such a tool?


Not seven edges but cstimer and qqtimer have edge only scrambles I believe


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## DLXCubing (Mar 23, 2019)

For memo, I memo with edges first, then corners. I make each letter pair into a word and combine them together to make two sentences (One for corners and one for edges.) However, I feel as if there are much better methods. Any advice is helpful. Thanks!


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## schapel (Mar 24, 2019)

Memo corners first, execute edges first
Experiment with audio edges
If this doesn't work, try memoing edges first and executing corners first, with audio corners

The most important factor is practice however


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## Dylan Swarts (Mar 26, 2019)

Hey everyone, need some advice. I have South African Nationals coming up 17-19 May and I am working on breaking AfR for MBLD. My PB is currently 5/6 in 27:4x.
AfR is 12/13 in 49:xy. I know, I am kinda insane but I believe it is possible. I have 15 MF3RS's bought specifically for mbld, and could use some other cubes if necessary. I want to know how to practice most efficiently. Should I attempt as many as I can sub hour, and just go on doing that, increasing the number of cubes as my time comes down, OR should I keep small numbers and working on accuracy? I have 3 attempts at 8 which went 5/8, 3/8 and 3/8 but that was a time ago. Thx in advance for any help. -Dylan


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## Keroma12 (Mar 27, 2019)

Dylan Swarts said:


> Hey everyone, need some advice. I have South African Nationals coming up 17-19 May and I am working on breaking AfR for MBLD. My PB is currently 5/6 in 27:4x.
> AfR is 12/13 in 49:xy. I know, I am kinda insane but I believe it is possible. I have 15 MF3RS's bought specifically for mbld, and could use some other cubes if necessary. I want to know how to practice most efficiently. Should I attempt as many as I can sub hour, and just go on doing that, increasing the number of cubes as my time comes down, OR should I keep small numbers and working on accuracy? I have 3 attempts at 8 which went 5/8, 3/8 and 3/8 but that was a time ago. Thx in advance for any help. -Dylan



I don't really know what's actually best, but in my experience, doing a mix of everything has worked well. If you can do 6 sub-30 then I'd try 10 or 11 regularly (and adapt based on the results of those of course). I'd also do all 15 once or twice, even though it will go way over the hour; it'll make your regular attempts feel easier, and make your memory palace more solid - don't worry _too_ much about accuracy/speed with these.
Small attempts (maybe 3 cubes) where you rush memo and exec are also good, though at this stage I think you can get a similar benefit from doing lots of 3BLD.

I've also noticed that accuracy tends to come with time, so personally I'd recommend just pushing for more cubes regardless of accuracy - as long as you are diagnosing your DNFs each time.


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## Dylan Swarts (Mar 30, 2019)

Hm.. Looks like it's me again. I've been reading around on speedsolving and read about people having like up to 10 locations in a room? Read it in like 2011 posts but I could still just totally be missing that people do that. I have 3 per room, one room a cube for mbld. For 4bld centers in one and wings in another(corners just there) and for 5bld just each piece type in its own room (midge and corners one room obvi). This okay or am I supposed to be having more locations in each room??


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## TheGrayCuber (Apr 4, 2019)

Dylan Swarts said:


> Hm.. Looks like it's me again. I've been reading around on speedsolving and read about people having like up to 10 locations in a room? Read it in like 2011 posts but I could still just totally be missing that people do that. I have 3 per room, one room a cube for mbld. For 4bld centers in one and wings in another(corners just there) and for 5bld just each piece type in its own room (midge and corners one room obvi). This okay or am I supposed to be having more locations in each room??



It’s up to you. If you want more locations per room you can, just do what makes the most sense to you.


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## ImmolatedMarmoset (Apr 7, 2019)

Hey guys! I’ve been starting to get into 3BLD and as I am using M2, I need S moves for some of my algs. I tried setting one of my cubes on loose tensions but it pops a lot, how would you recommend doing this specifically for 3BLD. I haven’t been able to find any video tutorials or really any info on the subject. If you could help that would be great.


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## willtri4 (Apr 7, 2019)

If it pops too much, tighten it and or turn more carefully. You don't really need the cube that loose for S moves. What cube is it? Any modern cube shouldn't really be popping on reasonable tensions. Graham has a video on setting up the GTS 1


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## Awder (Apr 24, 2019)

How do you deal with parity on 5BLD using TuRBo midges and OP corners?


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## willtri4 (Apr 24, 2019)

UBUL swap, which is what you should also be doing for 3bld and 4bld


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## SpiFunTastic (May 16, 2019)

I'm not able to learn 3 blind edges, can anyone help?


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## JustAnotherGenericCuber (May 17, 2019)

SpiFunTastic said:


> I'm not able to learn 3 blind edges, can anyone help?


Have you watched this video?


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## Steel (May 19, 2019)

I am currently trying to learn Orcozco corners, but I can't seem to figure it out. I am trying to do the comms intuitively, and I thought that I understood how to. However, when I perform what I think is the correct comm, it doesn't work.
For example, using Speffz, when I try to do the comm for H, I do [R D' R', U]. I would think this would work, as R D' R inserts H to helper and U interchanges H and buffer. However, the correct comm is [R D' R, U'], which to me seems like it does the exact same thing.
For another example, what I think the comm for R is: [L2: [R D2 R', U]]. To explain why I think this, L2 is setup, R D2 R' inserts R into helper, and U interchanges R and buffer. The correct comm is [R': [U2, R' D' R]] , which I struggle to understand/would never think of.
Any help is appreciated!


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## GenTheThief (May 20, 2019)

For the second case, at least, I'll confirm that that one is an irregular case. Instead of doing a set up->alg, you can use a COLL algorithm to solve for it.
I don't know what's up with the first one-- it might just be a typo.
E: Okay so if you do that alg on a solved cube, you'll see that it doesn't cycle the pieces correctly. I don't exactly remember, but when you insert a corner into the helper spot, you push the buffer to the helper spot rather than the other way around. Another way to solve that case I think would be [D2: R' D' R, U].

For reference, I did learn Orozco, but I never ended up switching and still use OP/M2.


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## Steel (May 20, 2019)

Oh thanks I get it now! I was just using the wrong interchange.


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## jronge94 (May 20, 2019)

The one thing I'd recommend is to only learn Orozco if you intend to learn full 3-style for corners. and try to find the best speed optimized comms for the UBR target (B in Speffz)


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## jronge94 (May 23, 2019)

willtri4 said:


> UBUL swap, which is what you should also be doing for 3bld and 4bld


???
5BLD I imagine to memo midges first, but then you don't know if you have to memo the swap.But my main issue, memoing a swap on 4BLD?
How does that even work?


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## Underwatercuber (May 23, 2019)

jronge94 said:


> ???
> 5BLD I imagine to memo midges first, but then you don't know if you have to memo the swap.But my main issue, memoing a swap on 4BLD?
> How does that even work?


Memo corners first and you can do the swaps.


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## mark49152 (May 23, 2019)

jronge94 said:


> ???
> 5BLD I imagine to memo midges first, but then you don't know if you have to memo the swap.But my main issue, memoing a swap on 4BLD?
> How does that even work?


You memo corners first, and if parity then memo and solve the UB and UL wings into swapped positions. The benefit is less with 4BLD though, as although you can avoid solving PLL parity during corners, wing parity is independent and more expensive to solve.

It's more worthwhile in 5BLD as corner/midge parity otherwise involves fixing wings as well as midges, which is also expensive.


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## jronge94 (May 23, 2019)

It just seems odd to me to memo centers than wings than corners than midges and inverse midges and corners during execution.
I like my solves linear during bigbld, but then again I'm not good at the bigbld.


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## redoxxy (Jun 20, 2019)

Hi all, I need help to become more consistent in blind events.

I'm using comms with UBL/UF buffers, am around 50 s in 3bld (memo 15 / pausy exe 25-45…), and keep DNFing a lot. Especially officially where my success rate is lower than 15% for 3bld and even worse for bigBLD. I also can't get good MultiBLD attempts.

I think my main problem is that I forget my memo as soon as I have to think about a comm. I also have better attempts if I don't review the memo, which is what I'm kind of afraid to do officially. At comps, I get nervous and review much too often, which is also why I'm much slower than at home.

At the recent Swiss Nationals I was seeded top 3 for 3-5bld, but DNFed all of it. The initial frustration is slowly turning into motivation again, any advice?

I was thinking about drilling exe/comms and maybe try some rush mini multiBLDs where I'll focus on thinkahead during exe…


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## Dylan Swarts (Jun 22, 2019)

Okay so I am transitioning to 3 style. Focus on corners for now, will start edges as soon as I'm more confident in corners.
After watching Jake Klassen's video on his opinion of intermediate methods, I decided to entirely do 3 style by myself. So I did a corner scramble and then memo'd, then during exec I would figure out the comms, worked pretty okay.
The thing is, I basically setup one of my targets of the letter pair to either UBL, UBR, UFL and then do the optimal comm for that cycle (I know the optimal for any comm involving those 3 as one of the targets)


Spoiler: Example



UFR-BUL-LDB I would do either L setup into UFR- UFL- LFU optimal comm of: [U' R:[R D R', U2]], or I would do a B' setup into UFR-UBL-BUR. Typing it now I think the former is better due to both the B move in the other and the less nice comm


 But for example the cycle UFR-LFU-LFD if I did that it'd be a L' B' setup which is gross, and then that comm. The optimal is obviously [U' R' U, L'].

I have watched Noah's tutorial and finding which two targets can be interchanged by a move and then the opposite layer will be the second move in the insertion, but this would mean a lot of rotations. Like UFR-LUB-RFD would be [x' U':[D', R U R']] whereas this comm: [D' R U:[R' D R' U]] is optimal, probably.
Basically I can choose between setups to a U face target and doing a comm, or doing it like Noah's tutorial. My plan from there is to optimalize my comms from A-X one by one, which will eliminate bad comms bit by bit, or atleast improve bad comms by a little, as setup locations are more. 

Can anyone maybe give me their opinion on this or give me some advice?


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## Keroma12 (Jun 22, 2019)

Dylan Swarts said:


> The optimal is obviously [U' R' U, L'].



Is it obvious? I use R' U' setup.



Dylan Swarts said:


> [...]
> After watching Jake Klassen's video on his opinion of intermediate methods, I decided to entirely do 3 style by myself.
> [...]
> Can anyone maybe give me their opinion on this or give me some advice?



Do you mean you want to create your own list yourself from scratch, instead of using other people's lists?

If you don't mind using other lists, I'd recommend going through each case one at a time as follows. Try and find something good, then check out a few lists to see if there is anything nicer that you missed. If you find something nicer in a list, but it's "too complicated" (you don't feel comfortable with following or understanding it, or whatever) at this stage, then just leave that case blank and move to the next one. If you find something nice, yourself or on a list, then put it in your list. Once finished, go through all the blanks again after a break. You'll probably find some of the "too complicated" algs more reasonable by now, and might even discover them on your own. Repeat. (This process could take a few days or a few months, doesn't really matter.)


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## Dylan Swarts (Jun 23, 2019)

Keroma12 said:


> Is it obvious? I use R' U' setup.


Oh yes that one is also nice. I figured the other one out myself from a different angle or something, then saw it on someone's list.
I don't mind using lists, my plan was using Graham's list and then like you said, look for other ones when I get cases I don't like.


Keroma12 said:


> If you don't mind using other lists, I'd recommend going through each case one at a time as follows. Try and find something good, then check out a few lists to see if there is anything nicer that you missed. If you find something nicer in a list, but it's "too complicated" (you don't feel comfortable with following or understanding it, or whatever) at this stage, then just leave that case blank and move to the next one. If you find something nice, yourself or on a list, then put it in your list. Once finished, go through all the blanks again after a break. You'll probably find some of the "too complicated" algs more reasonable by now, and might even discover them on your own. Repeat. (This process could take a few days or a few months, doesn't really matter.)


This sounds like advice for when I want to optimalize my comms, right? Or did you mean for now? Because I am still confused about whether this


Dylan Swarts said:


> The thing is, I basically setup one of my targets of the letter pair to either UBL, UBR, UFL and then do the optimal comm for that cycle


is fine for while I do your suggested plan? Thanks


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## Keroma12 (Jun 24, 2019)

Dylan Swarts said:


> This sounds like advice for when I want to optimalize my comms, right? Or did you mean for now? Because I am still confused about whether this
> [...]
> is fine for while I do your suggested plan? Thanks



I guess I kind of meant for optimizing your list right from the start.

If you want to make a list and then optimize it later then I'm not sure I have any particular advice for that. But I don't think that's very efficient; though obviously it depends on what your priorities are. One downside is that you will form habits of doing 'bad' setups like L moves and such.


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## Dylan Swarts (Jun 26, 2019)

I have no experience with Turbo but IMO I would recommend M2 for edges. It takes less moves than OP edges. OP edges are quite easy to understand.. maybe continue using it until you grasp how the method works. Then I would advise stay with OP corners and use M2 edges. J perm has a tutorial on it on YouTube.


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## CarterK (Jun 26, 2019)

Seems like you have it figured out that you want to use turbo


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## hadofhfo (Jun 30, 2019)

Any tips on nod donning blindfold? I can't do it for the life of me.


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## CarterK (Jun 30, 2019)

hadofhfo said:


> Any tips on nod donning blindfold? I can't do it for the life of me.


Loose Blindfold


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## hadofhfo (Jul 1, 2019)

Hmm makes sense.


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## M O (Jul 2, 2019)

looking to buy 20 cubes for multi, can anyone tell me if the Meilong is any good, or have any suggestions which cubes to buy?


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## mark49152 (Jul 2, 2019)

M O said:


> looking to buy 20 cubes for multi, can anyone tell me if the Meilong is any good, or have any suggestions which cubes to buy?


Don't know about the Meilong, but I can recommend Yuxin Little Magic. Cheap with bulk discount, and excellent for the price. Try https://zcube.vip.


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## Dylan Swarts (Jul 2, 2019)

I personally use MF3RS1's, but it's similar to the YLM like Mark said. On cubezz.com I got mine for 3.4 USD/cube which is pretty decent. I can't complain about the cubes either. Executing comms with E/S moves aren't perfect but I can't say it is a problem, but it might cause some lockup to a blinder who avgs like 20 seconds. I'm happy with them (own 25 now lol). Dunno about the Meilongs either, sorry.


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## M O (Jul 3, 2019)

Meilongs cost half of little magic so i‘m just gonna go for it  bless zcube


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## MSM2002. (Jul 4, 2019)

Does removing the logo sticker from a stickerless cube make it BLD legal?


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## m24816 (Jul 4, 2019)

MSM2002. said:


> Does removing the logo sticker from a stickerless cube make it BLD legal?


Yes.


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## MSM2002. (Jul 4, 2019)

Thanks


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## icarneiro (Jul 27, 2019)

I have a question, I'm using the Letter Pair method, and when the edges and corners are odd numbers, how do you know which pair that you have to transition in the middle of the letter pair?

For exemple:
*AC HX DF CQ P*_N FR ST NB_ (just a exemple, not a real solution)

How do you know it is exactly in the *P*_N_ pair that you will trade the edges for corners and make the parity?


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## mark49152 (Jul 27, 2019)

icarneiro said:


> I have a question, I'm using the Letter Pair method, and when the edges and corners are odd numbers, how do you know which pair that you have to transition in the middle of the letter pair?
> 
> For exemple:
> *AC HX DF CQ P*_N FR ST NB_ (just a exemple, not a real solution)
> ...


Put a letter on its own at the end of edges, like this:-

*AC HX DF CQ P*
_NF RS TN B_ 

When you recall a single letter, you know you have to fix parity. If you want all pairs, you can add a special letter - I used to add Z to indicate parity, so PZ = pizza.


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## M O (Jul 27, 2019)

icarneiro said:


> I have a question, I'm using the Letter Pair method, and when the edges and corners are odd numbers, how do you know which pair that you have to transition in the middle of the letter pair?
> 
> For exemple:
> *AC HX DF CQ P*_N FR ST NB_ (just a exemple, not a real solution)
> ...



i place single letters at the end just like mark, i like to memorize it as the singular letter being written on the previous object,
e.g. CQ=cash > CQ P=a money bill with a P on it
TN B=a tin can with the letter B on it

(this only works for images obviously, not for audio memo)


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## Owen Morrison (Aug 17, 2019)

i average about 43 minutes on blind...lol... i was wandering if anyone has any tips to help me get faster?


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## Animaginarytale (Aug 18, 2019)

Hi I am fairly new to 3 blind. However, I keep on DNFing on most, if not all all my recent solves. (I use M2/OP) Some problems I have are:

Memoing the wrong letter
Forgetting memo even after review
Undoing setups wrong
Missing flipped pieces/flipping them wrongly

Could you kindly offer some advice to help resolve these issues that I have identified? It would make 3 blind much more fun if I don’t DNF as much.


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## Dylan Swarts (Aug 18, 2019)

doing many solves will make you more familiar with your lettering scheme and should make memo errors like that less. Forgetting memo: well then your memo images aren't very vivid or easy to remember. Try and make easier images to remember.


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## satokajiro (Aug 23, 2019)

i am currently learning eka for corners, but i lack for good sources, do you have any docs or sheets with eka corners guide/comms? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Animaginarytale (Aug 23, 2019)

This one: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1IOV_-VRC1ZO2fB-N2iOfPYwXyxSftIKPF67rbu6dB1M/htmlview#


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## Lapse. (Aug 23, 2019)

Why do i never encounter parity when doing sighted practice solves to train my set up moves into my muscle memory? Its supposed to come up about 50% of the time iirc, also can someone explain parity and any algs that i can use from pll because as far as im aware 3bld parity fixes odd swaps which means parity swaps corners and edges, so can i use a pll for parity?


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## CurlyFries (Aug 23, 2019)

If you are using OP/OP, the parity alg is the Ra perm. You could use the RUF alg, the RUD version J-Perm mentions in his tutorial here, or any other alg that strikes your fancy. The only thing you need to make sure of is that the 1x2 block comes back to the front-left, for the two I mentioned, you would need a U' AUF. IF you are using M2/OP, you can use the alg D' L2 D M2 D' L2 D in between corner and edge execution. Alternatively you could swap the UB and UL(A and D in speffz)stickers in memo. As for parity not coming up, I'm not sure why. Are you using edge-only or corner-only scrambles? If so, parity never shows up with those scrambles. If not, you are just getting lucky and not having it.


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## mark49152 (Aug 23, 2019)

Lapse. said:


> Why do i never encounter parity when doing sighted practice solves to train my set up moves into my muscle memory? Its supposed to come up about 50% of the time iirc,


Maybe you're solving an odd number of your first piece type and swapping two of your second piece type without even noticing.


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## satokajiro (Aug 27, 2019)

how M2 is better than turbo edges?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Animaginarytale (Aug 28, 2019)

Apparently in terms of speed they are similar. However, M2 setups (except like Q) are much easier to learn compared to Turbo (basically stepper learning curve). Maybe it is harder to think ahead as in Turbo you might need to track setup moves? Could someone more experienced in Turbo/M2 comment?


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## 8aum (Aug 30, 2019)

Hi, I am using *this *source to get scrambles for my 3BLD to solve using OP method as explained by JPerm in his new method. But the letter pairs as the one provided by the source are different from what I am coming up with. For example I got the edge letter pairs as *XW UH LC QP NV D *for the attached scramble which is different from what provided in solution.Can some one please verify? I guess its using a different method than mine. Is there any other source that I can follow to get edge pairs like my method (I am using T Perm). Moreover I face problem in deciding if all the edges have been covered. Any tip for that ?


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## PetrusQuber (Sep 1, 2019)

I am currently solving 3x3 in under 30 seconds using Petrus, and would like to learn BLD. So I opted for Old Pochmann, but I was slightly confused (being a newbie) as to how you are supposed to memorise the changing corners. Take the T Perm for example. I can understand you set up to change the buffer with another pieces, but this also swaps corners and destroys memorization. How does it work???
Plus, what memorization method would you recommend?


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## Cubinwitdapizza (Sep 1, 2019)

PetrusQuber said:


> I am currently solving 3x3 in under 30 seconds using Petrus, and would like to learn BLD. So I opted for Old Pochmann, but I was slightly confused (being a newbie) as to how you are supposed to memorise the changing corners. Take the T Perm for example. I can understand you set up to change the buffer with another pieces, but this also swaps corners and destroys memorization. How does it work???
> Plus, what memorization method would you recommend?


For your last question I’m wondering that as well. For the first one parity. If you memorize an odd number of corners so let’s say I have these letter pairs, AB TF JI U . This means that you have parity. Parity is a R Perm. You will do that after you execute edges.


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## PetrusQuber (Sep 1, 2019)

Cubinwitdapizza said:


> For your last question I’m wondering that as well. For the first one parity. If you memorize an odd number of corners so let’s say I have these letter pairs, AB TF JI U . This means that you have parity. Parity is a R Perm. You will do that after you execute edges.


I thought of get what you mean, but not really. Bear in mind I am a complete newbie.So what do you mean by memorizing an odd number of corners? And also what are AB TF JI U?

CROSS OUT CROSS OUT, I know what you mean. I've been looking at ruwix's page on BLD.


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## Dylan Swarts (Sep 1, 2019)

In short, each sticker of edges and each sticker of corners are assigned a letter, these are used when memorising the cube. You setup pieces into a certain spot on the cube, do the swapping alg(t or J perm for edges, modified Y perm for corners) and then undo the setups. Doing this you will solve one piece at a time, swapping pieces until all pieces are in their correct spots, and the cube is solved. 
Memorizing: preferably memorize in letter pairs. Meaning that when you memorize, you group two letters together and for a word/ object out of it. So using Cubinwitdapizza's example: AB TF JI U - I would have Alec Benjamin eating a ToFfee on a JIgsaw puzzle
. So when you have an uneven amount of letters for corners and edges, like in this example *U* , it is called parity and an algorithm will be done to fix the edges and corners that have been offset by the Y, and T perms.


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## Cubinwitdapizza (Sep 1, 2019)

Dylan Swarts said:


> In short, each sticker of edges and each sticker of corners are assigned a letter, these are used when memorising the cube. You setup pieces into a certain spot on the cube, do the swapping alg(t or J perm for edges, modified Y perm for corners) and then undo the setups. Doing this you will solve one piece at a time, swapping pieces until all pieces are in their correct spots, and the cube is solved.
> Memorizing: preferably memorize in letter pairs. Meaning that when you memorize, you group two letters together and for a word/ object out of it. So using Cubinwitdapizza's example: AB TF JI U - I would have Alec Benjamin eating a ToFfee on a JIgsaw puzzle
> . So when you have an uneven amount of letters for corners and edges, like in this example *U* , it is called parity and an algorithm will be done to fix the edges and corners that have been offset by the Y, and T perms.


Just want to say this technically that alg is not even modified it’s its own alg because the y perm is just that alg but with F as the setup move.


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## Cubinwitdapizza (Sep 1, 2019)

Also what image could I use for hp? Also if you have a chart on this kinda stuff plz send.


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## Keroma12 (Sep 2, 2019)

Cubinwitdapizza said:


> Also what image could I use for hp? Also if you have a chart on this kinda stuff plz send.


https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Fi4xgUz5b23UXMlHq7Tt5C8Ak8-U3XdbeQ9Anw68BQc/edit#gid=0

https://bestsiteever.ru/letterpairs/

https://bestsiteever.ru/colpi/


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## M O (Sep 2, 2019)

how many algs is 3-style corners really?
from my buffer (UFR) I can shoot to 21 targets (7corners with 3 stickers) and then to 18 (6x3), I do not want to count inverses separately so I can divide by 2 and would receive 21x18:2 which equals 189 comms. (+parity algs and twists)
Did i make a mistake or how to people get to 400+ algs? (189x2 = 378 and even if i add 16 algs for twists i am only at 394)


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## PetrusQuber (Sep 2, 2019)

Is memorising in letter pairs necessary? I am currently just creating sentences like this : Quirell Talked to A Big Rat Face, instead of combining Q with T or A with B


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## AbsoRuud (Sep 2, 2019)

Whatever works for you! Really, if you can remember everything without making words and such, all the better. It doesn't matter how you do it, as long as it works, you can execute things and make no mistakes.


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## PetrusQuber (Sep 2, 2019)

AbsoRuud said:


> Whatever works for you! Really, if you can remember everything without making words and such, all the better. It doesn't matter how you do it, as long as it works, you can execute things and make no mistakes.


Ok thanks.


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## AbsoRuud (Sep 2, 2019)

PetrusQuber said:


> Ok thanks.


Saturday I had to remember ETHLJGVPW so I just ETHyL JaG Vice President W. And that worked fine for me. I still remember it.


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## theos (Sep 2, 2019)

PetrusQuber said:


> Is memorising in letter pairs necessary? I am currently just creating sentences like this : Quirell Talked to A Big Rat Face, instead of combining Q with T or A with B


There are advantages to using letter pairs. The main one is you have fewer words to remember - e.g. QT AB RF might be "QuieT ABacus RaFting", a 3-word phrase compared to 6 words. This means It's both quicker to commit to memory and easier to recall. Another advantage comes when you're using more advanced methods like M2 (1st and 2nd in pair are treated differently for M-slice targets) and 3-style (targets are solved together as pairs).

The main disadvantage is that it can sometimes be difficult to come up with words on the spot that include both letters (and that you can reliably identify which letters you meant). This can be overcome by learning words for difficult pairs.


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## PetrusQuber (Sep 2, 2019)

Also, last question, is it necessary to memo edges, memo corners, do corners, fix parity, do edges? Because I'm having trouble with setting up to do the modified Y Perm if I don't have edges to show how to link up and etc.


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## zman (Sep 2, 2019)

PetrusQuber said:


> Also, last question, is it necessary to memo edges, memo corners, do corners, fix parity, do edges? Because I'm having trouble with setting up to do the modified Y Perm if I don't have edges to show how to link up and etc.


You should memo corners, memo edges, do edges, fix parity, do corners


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## PetrusQuber (Sep 2, 2019)

zman said:


> You should memo corners, memo edges, do edges, fix parity, do corners


Oh ok. The ruwix page says the opposite.


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## Dylan Swarts (Sep 3, 2019)

I believe you can memorise as you wish, since only execution order matters. So it is up to you I guess. Tho I agree with zman.


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## zman (Sep 3, 2019)

Dylan Swarts said:


> I believe you can memorise as you wish, since only execution order matters. So it is up to you I guess. Tho I agree with zman.


its recommended to memorise corners first, then edges and execute in the reverse order because you can use audio for the longer memo (edges), which is faster but easier to forget than images but it doesnt matter since you execute the edges immediately after you memo them. in mbld you should memo edge first then corner since you will be using images for both


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## White KB (Sep 4, 2019)

Hey guys, WhiteKB here. In the past I've tried getting into BLD, but it hasn't worked out because it took too long and I almost never got a solved cube at the end. Any tips for getting into it? Currently, It takes 11-14 minutes for an attempt and I have a <10% success rate. Also currently I am using OP on edges and corners. I would preferably like something that will take me 1-2 weeks to do that will get me a 75% or greater success rate and will allow me to do it in 9-11 minutes (or less) by the end of the time frame. Again, if you have any tips, please let me know. Thanks!


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## Skewber10 (Sep 4, 2019)

i with not a lot of practice got around 75% accuracy averaging 7-9 min. Here is my method. Hope this helps.

I use a variation of the PAO system to memorize corners. Here is is.
The first letter you think of a person you know or who you have heard of example: a YouTuber.
The second letter you think of an action that the person can do
The third letter indicates an object that the person is doing the action to
Example of PAO system: GEW = Galen eats watermelon.

Next is the journey method. It is really easy but all the tutorials make it sound really complicated. Arrange a path that you often walk example: around your living area. Visualize your images in those places as you walk through your journey. It’s that easy. For me, if my first letter triplet was GEW I would imagine Galen eating w watermelon on my front porch where my journey starts.

I use these to systems to memorize corners. I memo and review a couple times by in my head visualizing the journey. After this I never review it during edge memo and. This is how well this memo system sticks.

Next , I memo edges. I first trace through my first two targets but don’t memo them. Then I use the audio system to memorize the rest of the edges. Once I have memoed the edges I go back and don’t memo but visualize my first to targets and then just execute quickly. This makes it so you don’t need to keep so much audio in your head.

Absolutely nothing is special about how I execute.


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## schapel (Sep 4, 2019)

I wouldn't recommend this sort of PAO system, standard letter pairs will give you more variety and will help you in the long run
Journey also isn't too necessary, you can experiment with it but it's unlikely to be helpful
Best thing you can do is just practice as much as you can, and see DNFs as learning moments rather than failures

Also, any system where you have to retrace edges is complicated and unnecessary, just do pure audio the whole way through if you can


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## AbsoRuud (Sep 4, 2019)

I am learning right now as well. I'm focusing on learning corners only right but and slowly working on edges. I find it it fairly easy to remember 8-10 letters in pairs. It took me two days to get my first couple of success doing only corners.I use the blind method on speedcubereview.com, it works well for me. Especially since he uses yellow on top and red in front, which is how I solve my cube with Roux. So it's a natural orientation for me. Edges are a few more letters but that isn't a big challenge either.


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## tx789 (Sep 4, 2019)

World Class 3BLD people don't have a 75% success rate, above 33.3% is an aim in the long term. Just do a lot of solves at this stage you can get down to 2 min with OP/OP.

Make sure you have a word for all letter pairs. Also switch to using audio for edges or corners if you don't already. So make sounds out of the letter pairs instead of making a image and say it in your head at first you'll need to repeat it a lot but with pratise this will get easier. Most people do audio edges. Memo the piece type you use with audio last and execute it first. So if you choose audio edges memo corners visually then memo edges with audio, solve the edges, solve the corners. Then just do a lot of solves. Do 100 over a few weeks and see where you're at.

The journey method is unessacry for 3BLD that is used for MBLD and bigBLD.


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## White KB (Sep 4, 2019)

ok those sound like some good tips! thanks guys!


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## PetrusQuber (Sep 4, 2019)

White KB said:


> Hey guys, WhiteKB here. In the past I've tried getting into BLD, but it hasn't worked out because it took too long and I almost never got a solved cube at the end. Any tips for getting into it? Currently, It takes 11-14 minutes for an attempt and I have a <10% success rate. Also currently I am using OP on edges and corners. I would preferably like something that will take me 1-2 weeks to do that will get me a 75% or greater success rate and will allow me to do it in 9-11 minutes (or less) by the end of the time frame. Again, if you have any tips, please let me know. Thanks!


Just keep on practising (even though I'm a noob). That is all you need. Don't worry about timing for now, just take your time to think about setup moves and etc, or you'll probably make a mistake. Tapping all the pieces during inspection helps me think about which colour will be on top, you could try that. Also, what memorisation technique so you use? Letter pairs is easy enough. If you do do that, make sure you know your cube - SPEFFZ


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## z3non (Oct 26, 2019)

Hey... I am brand new and atm I am learning 3BLD (with TuRbo for edges, buffer at C/I)(front red,right green) . My scramble is L' U' L2 R U' B2 U2 F D' B' R' F2 U2 B2 U B' F' .
After (UM) (XO) (WA) (PE) I am at a state ...
left with (LF) (flipped, right position) and (T R N ). [scramble to produce this state: L' B2 U B2 U' B' L B2 R2 U' L' U B' L B R2 (16f*)] 
How do I proceed/ handle this flipped stuff ?? I won't be able to produce a 3-cycle for those, right?? TIA guys


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## ThatGuy (Oct 27, 2019)

z3non said:


> Hey... I am brand new and atm I am learning 3BLD (with TuRbo for edges, buffer at C/I)(front red,right green) . My scramble is L' U' L2 R U' B2 U2 F D' B' R' F2 U2 B2 U B' F' .
> After (UM) (XO) (WA) (PE) I am at a state ...
> left with (LF) (flipped, right position) and (T R N ). [scramble to produce this state: L' B2 U B2 U' B' L B2 R2 U' L' U B' L B R2 (16f*)]
> How do I proceed/ handle this flipped stuff ?? I won't be able to produce a 3-cycle for those, right?? TIA guys



This video goes over parity, though fairly quickly. The overall method is different, but since turbo is a 3-cycle method like 3-style, you handle parity in conceptually the same way. (Note that if you were using Old Poch for both edges are corners, then parity would always be an Rperm)

Basically, in the most convenient scenario, you would have an even number of corner letter pairs and an even number of edge letter pairs, which is solvable by using 3-cycles. However, it is possible to get an odd number of corners and an odd number of edges, so you'll be able to solve everything with 3-cycles except the last corner and last edge. Then, you would perform a 'parity algorithm' to fix this. However, doing it this way can lead to some complicated situations. Instead, an easier way to deal with parity is:
1) Memorize corners. If you have an odd number of letters, you have parity.
2) Memorize edges. If you have parity, then you memorize A and D as swapped (I use Old Poch for corners still so A and D is most convenient.). So, in your case, if you saw the yellow orange sticker (normally A for you), you would pretend that it needed to go in the yellow blue slot (normally D for you).
3) Execute edges as you memorize them.
4) Execute corners. Now, in the case of parity, the last corner will not be a part of a letter pair--you will need to swap it with your buffer, which normally isn't possible since you cannot swap exactly two pieces. But since you memorized the A and D edges as swapped, you'll actually be swapping two corners and two edges, which is basically just PLL with setup moves.

It's a bit more confusing in text so here's an example of your scramble.
Corners:
IK (new cycle) BY CB UT U => you have parity, so memorize edges with A and D swapped.
Edges:
UM XO W*D* (new cycle) AP *Q*R NH, then flip the FL piece with your buffer, for example doing U' L' U, then the algorithm M' U M' U M' U2 M U M U M U2, then reversing the setup moves. I've bolded the pieces you should memorized as swapped.
Execute edges, and execute corners until you get to U. Now, since A and D were swapped from how you memorized edges, you can just do F2 + Yperm to finish the solve.

Parity was a bit hard for me to wrap my head around at first so let me know if you have any questions.


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## z3non (Nov 7, 2019)

ThatGuy said:


> This video goes over parity, though fairly quickly. The overall method is different, but since turbo is a 3-cycle method like 3-style, you handle parity in conceptually the same way. (Note that if you were using Old Poch for both edges are corners, then parity would always be an Rperm)
> 
> Basically, in the most convenient scenario, you would have an even number of corner letter pairs and an even number of edge letter pairs, which is solvable by using 3-cycles. However, it is possible to get an odd number of corners and an odd number of edges, so you'll be able to solve everything with 3-cycles except the last corner and last edge. Then, you would perform a 'parity algorithm' to fix this. However, doing it this way can lead to some complicated situations. Instead, an easier way to deal with parity is:
> 1) Memorize corners. If you have an odd number of letters, you have parity.
> ...


--edit--
I'll look into it, after some tests I may have some questions. Thanks a lot.


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## z3non (Nov 11, 2019)

ThatGuy said:


> This video goes over parity, though fairly quickly. The overall method is different, but since turbo is a 3-cycle method like 3-style, you handle parity in conceptually the same way. (Note that if you were using Old Poch for both edges are corners, then parity would always be an Rperm)
> 
> Basically, in the most convenient scenario, you would have an even number of corner letter pairs and an even number of edge letter pairs, which is solvable by using 3-cycles. However, it is possible to get an odd number of corners and an odd number of edges, so you'll be able to solve everything with 3-cycles except the last corner and last edge. Then, you would perform a 'parity algorithm' to fix this. However, doing it this way can lead to some complicated situations. Instead, an easier way to deal with parity is:
> 1) Memorize corners. If you have an odd number of letters, you have parity.
> ...


It worked well. THANKS!! Although " IK (new cycle) BY CB UT U " wasn't my solution for corners.... I have no Y.. just uvwx... my corners: (IK)(CBXC)(LOL) and setting up last L to U face with D F'


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## OreKehStrah (Nov 12, 2019)

Okay guys I have a bit of an odd question because of some odd circumstances. Basically my vision is so poor that without glasses my vision is worse than what’s considered legally blind. As a result, when I try to do blind solves without my glasses I can’t even tell separation of pieces. To do that I have to have the cube 2-5 inches from my face, which is not convenient. So I have a question.
Instead of taking my glasses off and using a blindfold, could I use no blindfold and just look straight up? I know it’s a really weird question but I’m curious since they usually use a piece of paper or something to cover the cube anyway, and dealing with this issue is part of why I don’t do blind solves.


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## PetrusQuber (Nov 12, 2019)

Can’t you just inspect with glasses, then take them off and don the blindfold? Or even just find a blindfold which is comfortable with glasses on? It’s not a big issue... I guess that’s sacrificing speed though.


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## OreKehStrah (Nov 12, 2019)

PetrusQuber said:


> Can’t you just inspect with glasses, then take them off and don the blindfold? Or even just find a blindfold which is comfortable with glasses on? It’s not a big issue... I guess that’s sacrificing speed though.


No. If I take the glasses off that’s technically some additional time added to the solve since I’m not going to just toss my glasses lol. And then if you have a blindfold on over glasses there’s an area in between your face, the glasses, and blindfold from which you can see so I don’t think that it’s allowed.


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## ThatGuy (Nov 13, 2019)

z3non said:


> It worked well. THANKS!! Although " IK (new cycle) BY CB UT U " wasn't my solution for corners.... I have no Y.. just uvwx... my corners: (IK)(CBXC)(LOL) and setting up last L to U face with D F'


Nice! Also, I forgot I use Y instead of X, whatever works though.


OreKehStrah said:


> No. If I take the glasses off that’s technically some additional time added to the solve since I’m not going to just toss my glasses lol. And then if you have a blindfold on over glasses there’s an area in between your face, the glasses, and blindfold from which you can see so I don’t think that it’s allowed.


You may look into blindfold goggles that can fit over glasses and are designed to block out the gaps as well. Not sure if they are WCA legal but I feel like they should be.


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## ctan (Nov 19, 2019)

Hello guys

just a beginner in BLD, using OP
I usually have issues knowing if I finished my memorization, mostly on edges
Is there a way to check if I didn't miss anything ?

Thanks !


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## PugCuber (Nov 19, 2019)

ctan said:


> Hello guys
> 
> just a beginner in BLD, using OP
> I usually have issues knowing if I finished my memorization, mostly on edges
> ...


The way almost everyone does it is by simply reviewing the memo. If you memo Corners then Edges, it’s best to execute Edges then Corners, which means you can put edges in short term memory by using a memory method like Audio which reduces the chance of you forgetting edges.


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## mark49152 (Nov 19, 2019)

ctan said:


> Hello guys
> 
> just a beginner in BLD, using OP
> I usually have issues knowing if I finished my memorization, mostly on edges
> ...


Yes, you can add up the targets. For edges:
T + P - B = 11
Where T is the number of letter targets, P is the number of edges already solved or flipped in the correct position, and B is the number of cycle breaks. Count each as you go along, and if the above expression comes to less than 11, there's something you haven't found yet.

Same applies to corners but using 7 not 11.


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## z3non (Nov 19, 2019)

Yep. You can check if you covered all edges. We can look at my example above with the following memorization for edges:
(UM XO W*D*)(AP *Q)(*R NH)(FL)
The question: Did I miss any edges here?
You *ALWAYS* cover *(**[**1st* cycle positions(letters)*]+1) + ([2nd *cycle positions(letters)*]-1**)** + **(**...**)** + **(**[**Nth* cycle positions(letters)*]-1**) NUMBER OF EDGES/CORNERS**!!! *

In my example I have (UMXOWD) for my first cycle (covering 6+1 edges). For my 2nd cycle (APQ) I cover 3-1 edges. For my 3rd cycle (RNH) I cover 3-1 edges. For my 4th cycle (FL) I cover 2-1 edges. (6+1)+(3-1)+(3-1)+(2-1)=12
So I covered all 12 edges and didn't miss anything.


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## ctan (Nov 20, 2019)

Wow thank you guys I will for sure try both your methods, which at the end are both logical 

Thanks you so much !


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## ProStar (Nov 26, 2019)

I just started learning BLD, and I've been doing solves (with my eyes open) with only the edges(I uses scrambles where corners are solved), and I have trouble knowing which edges I've swapped so far. Because of that, whenever I get to a new cycle, I can't remember which need to be solved. Any help would be appreciated.


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## PetrusQuber (Nov 26, 2019)

Just check every edge through memo. Start with D (for me). Ok I’ve already done Q, lets try C, thats CaR in the memo, A, no thats clear. Ok I’ll shoot to A


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## Habsen (Dec 10, 2019)

Hey,

I am using M2/"basic 3-Style" (comms for A, B, D, parity algs for the rest) with CEEC order for 3BLD. My buffers are DF/UFR and I use the UF/UR swap to handle parity.
For convenience, I would like to do the same for MBLD. I use two locations in my rooms to memo corners and three for edges, however, the order is giving me some headache. When I memo corners in locations 1 to 2 and edges in 3 to 5, I have to skip the first two locations during execution and go back after solving edges. Switching the order moves the problem to the memo phase. I kind of got used to it but I feel that this back-and-forth-jumping is a bad habit which should be avoided.

So what is your advice for this situation? I could actually memo and execute corners first when there is no parity. But I would be more interested in a consistent approach that works all the time. Any help is very much appreciated.


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## Archit123 (Dec 17, 2019)

Hi all,

I've recently started Blindsolving using the beginner's method (not sure what it's called: I used J Perm's video) and I can easily remember all the letters for edges and corners (using the roman rooms method) and know when/when not to use parity.

The only thing that I'm struggling with is knowing which pieces I've already visited. When starting a new cycle (particularly towards the end of solving edges), I have a vague idea but am often unsure of which pieces I have already visited and which I haven't. Is there a technique I can use to fix this problem or should I just keep trying and it'll improve over time?

Many Thanks!


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## Llewelys (Dec 17, 2019)

The method is called Old Pochmann (OP for short).
A common technique is to put your fingers on every piece you've targetted!


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## AbsoRuud (Dec 17, 2019)

Why do you use Roman Rooms for just one cube?


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## TheLegend12 (Dec 17, 2019)

I don't use roman rooms for 2bld but occasionally for 3bld, I will. It is an easier way to remember more information. I learned the concept so I could try it on 3bld and because I am very slow (9 minutes) it can work fine but I don't think this is a super good technique one you get faster.


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## Cuberstache (Dec 17, 2019)

I only use Roman Rooms for MBLD and 5BLD. For me, on 3BLD or 4BLD, Roman Rooms is a waste of effort because I can remember just fine by just making some sort of story. I'm not really sure what your title means though. Do you also need help on making sure you've shot to every piece?


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## cubeshepherd (Dec 17, 2019)

CuberStache said:


> I only use Roman Rooms for MBLD and 5BLD. For me, on 3BLD or 4BLD, Roman Rooms is a waste of effort because I can remember just fine by just making some sort of story. I'm not really sure what your title means though. Do you also need help on making sure you've shot to every piece?


If I remember correctly @AbsoRuud didn't create this thread. Someone else did and was asking the title of the thread, but it looks like he deleted those posts or something a kin to that.


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## Etotheipi (Dec 17, 2019)

cubeshepherd said:


> If I remember correctly @AbsoRuud didn't create this thread. Someone else did and was asking the title of the thread, but it looks like he deleted those posts or something a kin to that.


I think the other posts were moved to the BLD help thread, and then AbsoRuud posted right before that happened and didn't get moved.


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## Cuberstache (Dec 17, 2019)

Ooooh, I see. Thanks for clarifying.


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## Archit123 (Dec 18, 2019)

AbsoRuud said:


> Why do you use Roman Rooms for just one cube?


My abstract memory is terrible but my spatial memory tends to work better


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## Archit123 (Dec 18, 2019)

Llewelys said:


> The method is called Old Pochmann (OP for short).
> A common technique is to put your fingers on every piece you've targetted!


Thanks so much! I remember someone mentioning this technique but completely forgot to try it!


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## Zagros (Dec 18, 2019)

I have just started 4bld. On 3bld, I put a finger on every piece I've targeted. For 4bld centers, I put a finger on the latest center on each side that I've targeted since I go in order. But for edges, how do I know which I've targeted? I don't have 23 fingers. I know I can count how many targets I should have based on solved pieces and cycle breaks, but that wastes a lot of time and then I have to go over the memory and count how many I have. And knowing how many I should have isn't the only problem, I need to know WHICH ones I have left in case of cycle breaks. RN I have absolutely no clue what to do if I track 18 edges and then get a cycle break. Remembering which 18 edges I have been to without going through all the memo is not going to happen. How can I know which edges to go to?


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## Jacck (Dec 18, 2019)

Zagros said:


> I have just started 4bld. On 3bld, I put a finger on every piece I've targeted. For 4bld centers, I put a finger on the latest center on each side that I've targeted since I go in order. But for edges, how do I know which I've targeted? I don't have 23 fingers. I know I can count how many targets I should have based on solved pieces and cycle breaks, but that wastes a lot of time and then I have to go over the memory and count how many I have. And knowing how many I should have isn't the only problem, I need to know WHICH ones I have left in case of cycle breaks. RN I have absolutely no clue what to do if I track 18 edges and then get a cycle break. Remembering which 18 edges I have been to without going through all the memo is not going to happen. How can I know which edges to go to?


I have a row of 6 places where I memo 4 letters each. So I don't count the wings in the memo but can easily say how many I have memoed already, depending on the place I am and how many letters I have in that place.
And I have special wings to start new cycles. I'm using an advanced r2-system, so the target is a nice one or all others, that have easy setups or work fine with the advanced method. Not always but mostly I know which one of these hasn't occurred in the memo so far.
And I check the cube for solved wings before the memo. This seems to me much better than searching after the first memo-cycle. For example if I know there are 20 wings to solve and I have memoed 19 then I am sure that the work is done. Without checking for solved pieces before, I wouldn't know whether I'm done or another or even 2 cycles are left. And while checking this out, the memo I already did starts to vanish and I loose much more time than I needed for the pre-check.

Final Disclaimer: My 4bld- and 5-bld-means are now more than 10 times the WR, but maybe my ideas can help you


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## Habsen (Jan 4, 2020)

Habsen said:


> Hey,
> 
> I am using M2/"basic 3-Style" (comms for A, B, D, parity algs for the rest) with CEEC order for 3BLD. My buffers are DF/UFR and I use the UF/UR swap to handle parity.
> For convenience, I would like to do the same for MBLD. I use two locations in my rooms to memo corners and three for edges, however, the order is giving me some headache. When I memo corners in locations 1 to 2 and edges in 3 to 5, I have to skip the first two locations during execution and go back after solving edges. Switching the order moves the problem to the memo phase. I kind of got used to it but I feel that this back-and-forth-jumping is a bad habit which should be avoided.
> ...



Just in case someone else needs a solution for this. I found two that are not great but seem to be the best that I can do at the moment:

1. Just use ECEC order and use a parity alg, e.g. F2 U' M' U2 M' U' F2. Easy and seems to be reasonable for MBLD, however, I have to get used to solving 3BLD in a different way.
2. Learn a UF-UR DF-xy 2e2e alg set. Also ECEC order, also different from 3BLD.


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## martinba314 (Jan 6, 2020)

To solve a corner 3-cycle would you use a conjugate whenever the three corners are in the same layer, or just when there isn't a one-move interchange?


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## martinba314 (Jan 7, 2020)

In commutators, what is a good rule of thumb on whether you should do the interchange or insertion first and why does it matter which order we do them in?


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## GAN 356 X (Jan 8, 2020)

I though this video from J perm was pretty good. I'm not a blind solver myself, but am looking to get into it this year


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## ProStar (Jan 9, 2020)

Instead of solving edges then corners, can I solve corners first then the edges? (Old Pochman)


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## Cubingcubecuber (Jan 9, 2020)

ProStar said:


> Instead of solving edges then corners, can I solve corners first then the edges? (Old Pochman)


I do corners than edges(I can’t do blind, lost my blindfold so I can’t practice)


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## ProStar (Jan 9, 2020)

Cubingcubecuber said:


> I do corners than edges(I can’t do blind, lost my blindfold so I can’t practice)



Put the cube under a table if you don't have a blindfold. Or just use a sleeping mask.


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## AbsoRuud (Jan 9, 2020)

ProStar said:


> Put the cube under a table if you don't have a blindfold. Or just use a sleeping mask.


Or close your eyes, or look up, or put a light towel over your hands, or... think in possibilities rather than limitations.


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## ProStar (Jan 9, 2020)

AbsoRuud said:


> Or close your eyes, or look up, or put a light towel over your hands, or... think in possibilities rather than limitations.



It's up to you whether or not you cheat. For practice, you can literally do anything.


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## NevEr_QeyX (Jan 9, 2020)

I've gotten two blind successes and then 18 attempts later i can't recreate it! After every solve I take my blindfold off only to find that I'm off by two flipped edges or a cycle of corners or edges. I can't seem to correct the problem with practice please help!


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## Habsen (Jan 10, 2020)

NevEr_QeyX said:


> I've gotten two blind successes and then 18 attempts later i can't recreate it! After every solve I take my blindfold off only to find that I'm off by two flipped edges or a cycle of corners or edges. I can't seem to correct the problem with practice please help!



You should do sighted solves with your blindsolving method to see when something goes wrong.
Whenever I make a mistake, I use the scramble again (sighted) and try to find out what went wrong.


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## NevEr_QeyX (Jan 10, 2020)

Habsen said:


> You should do sighted solves with your blindsolving method to see when something goes wrong.
> Whenever I make a mistake, I use the scramble again (sighted) and try to find out what went wrong.



My problem is during memo. i know exactly what I'm doing wrong but when I memorize the piece it's like I memo the opposite sticker or something.


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## ProStar (Jan 12, 2020)

I keep having trouble with the setup moves for edges. I'm good with corners, but always mess up for edges.


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## NevEr_QeyX (Jan 12, 2020)

Are you using M2?


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## ProStar (Jan 12, 2020)

NevEr_QeyX said:


> Are you using M2?



No, Old Pochmann.


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## Cuberstache (Jan 12, 2020)

ProStar said:


> No, Old Pochmann.


Many optimal setups involve Lw and/or Dw moves. I know when I used Old Pochmann, I wasn't aware of this and used some very bad setup moves. But Lw and Dw moves preserve the three pieces you need to preserve, so they're fair game even though it doesn't feel like it.


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## NevEr_QeyX (Jan 12, 2020)

Learn M2 because the setups are super easy and you only need to learn 4 shortish algs. but if you don't want to j perm has a good tutorial for op where he gives example setups


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## PetrusQuber (Jan 12, 2020)

ProStar said:


> I keep having trouble with the setup moves for edges. I'm good with corners, but always mess up for edges.


If you are specifically having trouble with certain stickers, just ask (or find a setup move sheet)


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## Llewelys (Jan 12, 2020)

ProStar said:


> I keep having trouble with the setup moves for edges. I'm good with corners, but always mess up for edges.


If you're having trouble finding the set ups: watch videos and do sighted solves
If you're having trouble in their execution: I found it easier to do E moves rather than d moves, so maybe you can try that


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## Ladan (Jan 31, 2020)

I tried to do 3bld ( only corners for practice ) and i need help: 

Scramble: U F B L2 B L' U' B2 D R2 D2 R2 F2 B R2 U2 D2 F' U2 B2 Fw 

Memory: V E I X S J W ( only corners ) 

Lettering Scheme: https://www.speedcubereview.com/blind-solving-algorithms.html

I did my corners and now the "A-Corner" and the "C-Corner" are wrong, why is that?


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## ProStar (Jan 31, 2020)

Ladan said:


> I tried to do 3bld ( only corners for practice ) and i need help:
> 
> Scramble: U F B L2 B L' U' B2 D R2 D2 R2 F2 B R2 U2 D2 F' U2 B2 Fw
> 
> ...



What orientation do you use(i.e white top green front)


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## Skewbed (Feb 7, 2020)

I have been doing about 5 blindsolves a day for the past week, and I'm realizing that it takes me a long time to memo. It takes me around 2.5 minutes to memo, and less than 1.5 minutes for execution.

I've been using words/sentences (a mix of visual and audio) for corners, and audio for edges. And for execution, M2/OP.

I think it takes longer for me to do corners than edges (which it shouldn't). I basically make words and remember them in audio, and I turn one or two of them into an image.

I find it easier to remember the audio only words if I use some visual ones to remind me of the whole sequence. I think Noah Arthurs called this a "keystone image" in one of his videos.

Edges takes about 45 seconds to a minute for me, and I just use pure audio, not words. I can trace 8 edges before needing to "rehear" them.

Now, what can I do to improve? More practice? A different memo system for corners?


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## Habsen (Feb 7, 2020)

Skewbed said:


> Now, what can I do to improve? More practice? A different memo system for corners?



I think practicing more will get you close to sub 2min within a couple of weeks. But five solves per day might not be enough. I would suggest 10-12 per day for the moment. And make sure to track your progress, e.g. for motivational purposes.


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## Jack Chan (Feb 9, 2020)

Can anyone here help me label the corners pieces using the speffz letter scheme. Really appreciate it.



Spoiler


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## PetrusQuber (Feb 9, 2020)

Speffz starts on the U face, moves onto L face, then to F, then to R, then to B, then to D.
The letters on each face go round clockwise, starting with the top right (as if you’re looking at that face)

So the U sticker of UBL is A, the U of the UBR sticker is B, and so on. When you’ve got to D, move to the L face, and start with E (L sticker of UBL)


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## DerpBoiMoon (Feb 9, 2020)

here:


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## Jack Chan (Feb 9, 2020)

Thanks first that. But this is not what I want. I understand the speffz letter scene, and I struggle on the things such as UBL, LUB, BlU. I am confused with the corner orientation.



PetrusQuber said:


> So the U sticker of UBL is A, the U of the UBR sticker is B, and so on. When you’ve got to D, move to the L face, and start with E (L sticker of UBL)


Can you example how the corner is twisted? I do not know what UBL, LUB, BLU are referring to.


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## Llewelys (Feb 9, 2020)

Hold your cube with green front white top.

UBL: U face, Back Left sticker (white of white-blue-orange corner, A in Speffz)
LBU: L face, Back Up sticker (orange of white-blue-orange corner, E in Speffz)
BLU: B face, Left Up sticker (blue of white-blue-orange corner, R in Speffz)

For the order of letters, only the first one is important because it gives you the face you need to look at. Order of the second and third letters doesn't matter: UBL=ULB, LBU=LUB, BLU=BUL

For the first alg of your image, UFR>URB>UBL means (still with green front white top):
*white of white-green-red* goes to *white of white-red-blue* goes to *white of white-blue-orange* (Speffz: C>B>A)

Edit: You can do the same thing for edges, where UF is white sticker of white-green edge, FU is green sticker of white-green edge, FR is green sticker of green-red edge, RF is red sticker of green-red edge, etc.


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## Jack Chan (Feb 9, 2020)

I have got it. Thanks.


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## DerpBoiMoon (Feb 9, 2020)

then this conversation gets to a point where people who search speffz lettering scheme and paste it don't understand


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## Duncan Bannon (Feb 16, 2020)

Does anyone have a spreadsheet of words that you make with your letter pairs? I'm going to try to make my own, but It'd be nice to be able to see what others use for the harder cases (XQ for example). Thanks!


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## Llewelys (Feb 16, 2020)

You should check out bestsiteever.ru/colpi!


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## Duncan Bannon (Feb 16, 2020)

Llewelys said:


> You should check out bestsiteever.ru/colpi!


Perfect! Thank you sooo much!


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## ProStar (Feb 18, 2020)

When should I learn M2?


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## Cubingcubecuber (Feb 18, 2020)

ProStar said:


> When should I learn M2?


Tomorrow

It’s not too hard, except for special cases BTW I’m learning it now, and it’s fun, although I lost my blindfold


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## ProStar (Feb 18, 2020)

Cubingcubecuber said:


> Tomorrow
> 
> It’s not too hard, except for special cases BTW I’m learning it now, and it’s fun, although I lost my blindfold



Ok thanks

Also just close your eyes, or put it under a table, or put your head on a table, or something. You don't need a blindfold in practice.


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## Duncan Bannon (Feb 18, 2020)

ProStar said:


> When should I learn M2?


The day after tomorrow. Naw, really; I just finished learning M2 and did pretty well at my recent comp. I definitely recommend learning it. Setup moves take a bit to remember, but are really nice after a bit. JPerms tutorials are great.


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## PetrusQuber (Feb 18, 2020)

M2 is really easy to be honest, setup moves are all intuitive on the outer blocks, and for the middle layer, you only need two algs and their inverses. Not to mention one is literally just U2 M‘ U2 M’. Parity is pretty short as well (for M2 to OP) and the only difficult concept to grasp is that the M layer moves 180 degrees every time you shoot a piece somewhere, so if you need to shoot to C, it will not be where C is if you have shot an even number of pieces so far, it will be at W. I used this and the video:








Blind Solving Algorithms


Old Pochmann is a basic method for blind solving that utilizes swapping only a few pieces at once using common algorithms found in methods like CFOP. It was created by Stefan Pochmann. You set up...



www.speedcubereview.com




Note he uses KRZ


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## nanocube (Feb 24, 2020)

I am starting out and my first objective is to be able to do (or construct) commutators on the fly.
I can do all lot of them eyes open but I’m having trouble blindfolded.

Here is a description of my mental process and where it breaks down :

*A.* I started with commutators where the buffer is the odd-peace and the bottom-layer is the inter-change. For those I learned how to shoot the buffer to all the peaces on the bottom layer with 3 inserts.

My mental process is the following :

Letter Pair : LP
shout buffer to L
Undo
This works great.

*B.* Then I attacked coms with the odd-peace on the bottom-layer and the inter-change on the top-face. 
For those I learned to shoot P, K or V to the top-face (3 inserts)

My mental process is the following

Letter pair : PD
shoot buffer to P (*OH NO!* that doesn't work)
OK, where is the odd peace? OK it’s P
Where does P go? OK it goes to D
Shoot P to D
Undo
This works, but it’s much longer than process A, I mess up a lot, and nothing is automatic.

*Q1. What should my mental process be for letter pairs like PD (PB, PA) or GD (GB, GA), basically cases where the odd peace in not the buffer? 
Q2. I don't know if it's possible but I would like to see DP, and know immediately that I have to shoot D the buffer (then undo). Is there a trick to do this ? (Or for PD, shoot P to D, undo)*

Thanks in advance for you help.


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## nanocube (Feb 24, 2020)

sorry I figure I had put my question in the wrong place, and I did not really know were i should post it, Thanks for doing in it for me. SHould I delete this last one right away?


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## cubeshepherd (Feb 24, 2020)

nanocube said:


> sorry I figure I had put my question in the wrong place, and I did not really know were i should post it, Thanks for doing in it for me. SHould I delete this last one right away?


No worries, and actually one of the moderators moved your first one for you to the correct thread. If you can delete this thread then that would be great and if not then just have one of the moderators delete it for you.


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## AmirKing (Feb 25, 2020)

I am currently transitioning from the Old Pochman method to the Orozco method for solving the corners.

Unfotunately, I am having a hard time learning when to swap with the helper and when to swap with the buffer. I do know that the first letter in the letter pair goes to the helper, and the second letter goes to the buffer.

There are special cases though, for example N (Speffz lettering scheme), with following algorithm: R U2 R' U' R U' R' U2 R' U2 R U R' U R U2. How do I apply this algorithm if N comes first in the pair and vice versa?


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## Cubingcubecuber (Mar 2, 2020)

How do people who wear glasses do blind? Do they have to take them off to put on the blindfold, or do they do it before they start inspecting?


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## AbsoRuud (Mar 3, 2020)

Cubingcubecuber said:


> How do people who wear glasses do blind? Do they have to take them off to put on the blindfold, or do they do it before they start inspecting?


Most people I've seen take off the glasses before inspection.


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## paul.edmondson.magician (Mar 19, 2020)

I see there are loads of methods around the internet. I want to go down the best path and learn the best method possible. Can you recommend where to start please? I don't want to learn a method for it to be redundant further down the line. I've stickered my cube and am ready to do v please advise links too.






Sent from my CLT-L09 using Tapatalk


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## shadowslice e (Mar 19, 2020)

The "best" method for blindsolving is 3-style along with a load of tricks. However, it has an extremely steep learning curve and until you've memoed virtually all the "basic" comms, you wouldn't be able to do a solve and so your memorisation/execution wouldn't be given the chance to improve.

I would therefore recommend you start with OP for corners and M2 for edges and then slowly start to learn the 3-style comms and integrate them into your solve.

I'd recommend checking out zane's and noah's tutorials


Spoiler







 







edit: also, as stated in the text above this subforum, this is not where you should be asking questions so this thread would be better in either cubing help and questions or blindsolving discussion.


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## Owen Morrison (Mar 19, 2020)

shadowslice e said:


> I would therefore recommend you start with OP for corners and M2 for corners and then slowly start to learn the 3-style comms and integrate them into


do you mean edges?


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## shadowslice e (Mar 19, 2020)

Owen Morrison said:


> do you mean edges?


Oh yeah oops lol. I fixed it now. Thanks for pointing that out


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## kubesolver (Mar 19, 2020)

paul.edmondson.magician said:


> I don't want to learn a method for it to be redundant further down the line.



I think it's unavoidable, but also it's not a big deal.

Even if method you have learned becomes obsolete, that doesn't mean that the skills you gained by learning it are obsolete nor that the work was wasted.


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## paul.edmondson.magician (Mar 19, 2020)

Ok I'll start with Pochman. 

Sent from my CLT-L09 using Tapatalk


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## paul.edmondson.magician (Mar 19, 2020)

Owen Morrison said:


> do you mean edges?


So it's advisable to learn both methods then? One for edges and the other for corners

Sent from my CLT-L09 using Tapatalk


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## Owen Morrison (Mar 19, 2020)

paul.edmondson.magician said:


> So it's advisable to learn both methods then? One for edges and the other for corners
> 
> Sent from my CLT-L09 using Tapatalk


well you can't solve the corners the same way as you do the edges so you need to know both, although they are pretty similar.


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## dudefaceguy (Mar 19, 2020)

shadowslice e said:


> The "best" method for blindsolving is 3-style along with a load of tricks. However, it has an extremely steep learning curve and until you've memoed virtually all the "basic" comms, you wouldn't be able to do a solve and so your memorisation/execution wouldn't be given the chance to improve.
> 
> I would therefore recommend you start with OP for corners and M2 for edges and then slowly start to learn the 3-style comms and integrate them into your solve.
> 
> ...


I recently started learning 3style without knowing any other blind methods first. I like using commutators rather than learning algorithms, so it's actually a lot easier for me to learn 3 style than other methods that use CFOP-based algorithms that I don't know.

So far I've just been doing semi-sighted solves, where I memorize one commutator and then execute it without looking. I've also tried writing down the letters and trying to execute the full solve while following the written sequence. Basically I want to get comfortable with executing the commutators before trying memorization.

I'm having a little trouble figuring out how to start new cycles and deal with flipped pieces, since 3 style tutorials already assume you know how this works. But, in general I'm having a lot of fun learning. So, I think it is possible to start with 3 style as long as you are patient.


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## ProStar (Mar 19, 2020)

Learn Old Pochman first. If you like blind solving, you can then learn M2 for edges, but stick with OP for corners. Then, if you want to continue, after practice you could learn orazco(think I spelled that wrong) for corners(so now you'd be using Orozco+M2). Then, if you reeaaallly like blind solving, you could learn the couple hundred algorithms needed for 3-style. This may seem like a lot of steps and uneeded methods, but the stuff you learn won't be in vain. Knowing OP will help you transition onto M2, just like learning beginners method helped before learning CFOP(or another advanced method)

Oh, also, this may be personal preference, but I always thought putting letters on your cube was pointless. The letter scheme is unbelievably easy, just go clockwise around the faces with each letter. Then do the same for corners. That may just be personal opinion though


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## fun at the joy (Mar 19, 2020)

ProStar said:


> *orazco*(think I spelled that wrong) for corners(so now you'd be using *Orozco*+M2).


at least you learned really quickly how to spell orozco


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## ProStar (Mar 19, 2020)

fun at the joy said:


> at least you learned really quickly how to spell orozco



Well that was lucky XD


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## dudefaceguy (Mar 20, 2020)

I’ve had some success with my pseudo-3-style blindsolving. I’m wondering if there is anyone else who solves this way, or if it’s just me. 

I make up the commutators on the fly during the solve, using this technique. My buffer is U for edges, and V for corners, both on the bottom layer. I always use the bottom layer as the interchange layer. I conjugate one of the other stickers to the bottom layer, and one to the top layer. I always interchange with the buffer. The conjugates are never more than 3 moves, which makes them easy to reverse. I find this easy to visualize because the commutators always have the same orientation.

Does anyone else do this? I imagine not, because it is faster to learn algorithms. I really hate learning algorithms, and I’m not really concerned with speed. I just want a fun and challenging method that I will remember even if I stop practicing it for a year.


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## Cuberstache (Mar 20, 2020)

dudefaceguy said:


> I’ve had some success with my pseudo-3-style blindsolving. I’m wondering if there is anyone else who solves this way, or if it’s just me.
> 
> I make up the commutators on the fly during the solve, using this technique. My buffer is U for edges, and V for corners, both on the bottom layer. I always use the bottom layer as the interchange layer. I conjugate one of the other stickers to the bottom layer, and one to the top layer. I always interchange with the buffer. The conjugates are never more than 3 moves, which makes them easy to reverse. I find this easy to visualize because the commutators always have the same orientation.
> 
> Does anyone else do this? I imagine not, because it is faster to learn algorithms. I really hate learning algorithms, and I’m not really concerned with speed. I just want a fun and challenging method that I will remember even if I stop practicing it for a year.


Ah yes, I did something similar for a while, making up algs on the fly based on intuition. Here's what I learned: *It sucks*. I see from other posts that this is your first blind method and you don't have a success yet. In light of that, I recommend sticking with what you have until you get one success, because that first success feels awesome and your method is good enough to get that. If you want to do 3-style the right way, for speed, here's how I would go about doing that. First off, switch your buffers to UF/UFR (C/C with speffz) as soon as possible. That buffer set has the best comms, and you can continue using your method in a very similar way. When you feel up to it, go to a commutator sheet (I use Daniel Lin's, found here, and you can even customize your orientation and lettering scheme!). Here's the important part: *Learning commutators is nothing like learning algorithms*. You already understand setups and interchanges and all that, so the sheet just tells you the setups that give you the best commutators. They won't be move-optimal, which can be hard to get over, but they will be speed-optimal. Just follow the setups they have, understand how it moves the pieces around, and treat it just like the ones you came up with, only slightly optimized ones. It will still take a lot of time and effort to remember all of them, but nowhere near what it would take to learn them as algorithms. Best of luck, and don't be afraid to ask further questions!


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## dudefaceguy (Mar 20, 2020)

CuberStache said:


> Ah yes, I did something similar for a while, making up algs on the fly based on intuition. Here's what I learned: *It sucks*. I see from other posts that this is your first blind method and you don't have a success yet. In light of that, I recommend sticking with what you have until you get one success, because that first success feels awesome and your method is good enough to get that. If you want to do 3-style the right way, for speed, here's how I would go about doing that. First off, switch your buffers to UF/UFR (C/C with speffz) as soon as possible. That buffer set has the best comms, and you can continue using your method in a very similar way. When you feel up to it, go to a commutator sheet (I use Daniel Lin's, found here, and you can even customize your orientation and lettering scheme!). Here's the important part: *Learning commutators is nothing like learning algorithms*. You already understand setups and interchanges and all that, so the sheet just tells you the setups that give you the best commutators. They won't be move-optimal, which can be hard to get over, but they will be speed-optimal. Just follow the setups they have, understand how it moves the pieces around, and treat it just like the ones you came up with, only slightly optimized ones. It will still take a lot of time and effort to remember all of them, but nowhere near what it would take to learn them as algorithms. Best of luck, and don't be afraid to ask further questions!


That’s for the detailed reply! I will check out those commutator resources. I do enjoy learning more about commutators. 

What’s the advantage of using C as the buffer instead of any other sticker? Shouldn’t they all be basically the same?

Also I had my first success today! It did indeed feel amazing.


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## Cuberstache (Mar 21, 2020)

dudefaceguy said:


> That’s for the detailed reply! I will check out those commutator resources. I do enjoy learning more about commutators.
> 
> What’s the advantage of using C as the buffer instead of any other sticker? Shouldn’t they all be basically the same?
> 
> Also I had my first success today! It did indeed feel amazing.


Awesome! Congrats on your success! The advantage is that overall, the commutators for C are faster than other ones. Having the buffers in the front of the cube means more commutators are RUD or RUM or other fast movegroups. I personally don't know a whole lot about how fast different buffers are, but I'm pretty sure that other people have tested out different buffers, and UF/UFR have been determined to be fastest. If you're going to learn commutators, there's really no reason not to learn the best ones.


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## dudefaceguy (Mar 23, 2020)

After many more failures and a couple of successes, I have a question about memorization accuracy.

I see that WCA regulations take the best of 3 solves for 3bld, which means that you can fail twice and it doesn’t matter as long as you get a good time on the third solve. It seems like high-level blind techniques are geared towards a high-risk, high-speed strategy for this reason. I've heard that the fastest blind solvers only have about a 60% success rate.

As for me, I do not hope to be fast - I am an old man and I am doing this to relax and essentially meditate. I’m more interested in accuracy than speed. Do you have any suggestions on different memorization techniques for increased accuracy?

So far I am memorizing images for edges rather than just sounds. It takes me a long time to memorize and execute, so audio memorization doesn’t really work for me. Is it normal for a beginner to memorize using more robust techniques, and then transition to audio/image once they get faster?


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## Cuberstache (Mar 23, 2020)

dudefaceguy said:


> After many more failures and a couple of successes, I have a question about memorization accuracy.
> 
> I see that WCA regulations take the best of 3 solves for 3bld, which means that you can fail twice and it doesn’t matter as long as you get a good time on the third solve. It seems like high-level blind techniques are geared towards a high-risk, high-speed strategy for this reason. I've heard that the fastest blind solvers only have about a 60% success rate.
> 
> ...


Yeah, using images and slowly transitioning towards audio is normal. Early on, it's good to spend a lot of time thinking of good images and how to connect them together. As you improve, you'll rely on the words themselves more than the images they create. Getting a vague feel for the direction tracing goes can be a bigger deal when you're fast. Also, people don't generally switch to full audio for edges until sub-1:30 at the earliest so don't worry about it.


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## Habsen (Mar 23, 2020)

dudefaceguy said:


> Is it normal for a beginner to memorize using more robust techniques, and then transition to audio/image once they get faster?



As a total beginner, you have to recall the information a couple of minutes after memorizing it. More robust techniques or multiple memo passes are the way to go here.
Top cubers memorize in less than ten seconds and solve it within the next 15 seconds. They need to remember the information for a very short time only which makes techniques such as audio more feasible.
Using images/words for everything should be fine right now. You can try to use audio for more pieces once you get faster at tracing and execution.


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## dudefaceguy (Mar 24, 2020)

CuberStache said:


> Yeah, using images and slowly transitioning towards audio is normal. Early on, it's good to spend a lot of time thinking of good images and how to connect them together. As you improve, you'll rely on the words themselves more than the images they create. Getting a vague feel for the direction tracing goes can be a bigger deal when you're fast. Also, people don't generally switch to full audio for edges until sub-1:30 at the earliest so don't worry about it.





Habsen said:


> As a total beginner, you have to recall the information a couple of minutes after memorizing it. More robust techniques or multiple memo passes are the way to go here.
> Top cubers memorize in less than ten seconds and solve it within the next 15 seconds. They need to remember the information for a very short time only which makes techniques such as audio more feasible.
> Using images/words for everything should be fine right now. You can try to use audio for more pieces once you get faster at tracing and execution.



Great, thank you guys! 

I see your point about getting a vague feeling for the direction of the cycles. I had a successful solve tonight in which I forgot my corner memo completely for about a minute. I eventually remembered it by remembering the first corner swap visually, and recalling the first letter from that.

Thanks again - blindsolving is incredibly fun. As an intuitive solver, I feel like it's designed for me.


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## dudefaceguy (Mar 29, 2020)

I've recently started executig all edge and corner flips first, which seems to improve my accuracy. When do you guys usually execute your flips? Thanks.


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## Cuberstache (Mar 29, 2020)

dudefaceguy said:


> I've recently started executig all edge and corner flips first, which seems to improve my accuracy. When do you guys usually execute your flips? Thanks.


I do them at the end of that piece type. So if you have one edge flip, do you flip it and the buffer piece? So you have to find the buffer piece and figure out how to flip it and the piece that needs to be flipped?


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## dudefaceguy (Mar 30, 2020)

CuberStache said:


> I do them at the end of that piece type. So if you have one edge flip, do you flip it and the buffer piece? So you have to find the buffer piece and figure out how to flip it and the piece that needs to be flipped?


Well yes - it's not as bad as it sounds. I already know where the buffer is, and I don't need to figure out how to flip the buffer because it will always be part of a two-piece flip - so it will be solved automatically if I solve the other piece correctly. I read somewhere back in this thread that someone did flips before the rest of the execution, so I thought I would try it.

I feel like it improves my accuracy because I can remember flips with visual memory, execute right away, then forget about them for the rest of the solve. Then they are not taking up space in my letter/image memorization. I don't know whether it's faster though, or whether many other people do flips first.


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## Dylan Swarts (Mar 30, 2020)

I must say, @dudefaceguy , this is really impressive. By no means super efficient, but since that is not what you are trying to do, I find it great that you are playing around on this a lot. Keep up the good work!


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## gibon187 (Mar 30, 2020)

So recently I learned how to solve cube blindfolded especially corners and edges with old pochmann. What Should I learn next? M2 for edges? Jump straight to 3-style? Stick with OP to master it? I have no idea what to do now.


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## Nffsagrisen (Mar 30, 2020)

Learn M2. It is fast and easy to learn. 3 Style is a huge commitment since there are like 800 comms.


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## gibon187 (Mar 30, 2020)

And stick to Op for corners and M2 for edges and do my best times?


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## Cuberstache (Mar 30, 2020)

gibon187 said:


> And stick to Op for corners and M2 for edges and do my best times?


Yes, you can get down to sub-1 with OP/M2. 3-style is a big commitment, only for people who want 3BLD to be one of their main events.


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## Habsen (Mar 30, 2020)

gibon187 said:


> So recently I learned how to solve cube blindfolded especially corners and edges with old pochmann. What Should I learn next? M2 for edges? Jump straight to 3-style? Stick with OP to master it? I have no idea what to do now.



Learning full 3-style is a huge project, however, you don't have to learn all 839 algs to be able to use it in your solves. From my experience, I would say that you can be as fast as with M2/OP when you know approximately 15% of the algs. If you think that you will spend a lot of time on blindsolving in the future, I would encourage you to switch to UF/UFR buffers and start learning 3-style. If you don't know yet, better look into M2 first. It's allows you to be quite fast although it is rather simple.


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## gibon187 (Mar 30, 2020)

Habsen said:


> Learning full 3-style is a huge project, however, you don't have to learn all 839 algs to be able to use it in your solves. From my experience, I would say that you can be as fast as with M2/OP when you know approximately 15% of the algs. If you think that you will spend a lot of time on blindsolving in the future, I would encourage you to switch to UF/UFR buffers and start learning 3-style. If you don't know yet, better look into M2 first. It's allows you to be quite fast although it is rather simple.



Thank you very much. So even if im planning to learn this in the future I shouldn't learn any other like orozco/eka in beetwen? Just stick to M2/OP and in the future learn some 3-style if this is going to be my main thing(3bld ofc)?


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## ProStar (Mar 30, 2020)

gibon187 said:


> Thank you very much. So even if im planning to learn this in the future I shouldn't learn any other like orozco/eka in beetwen? Just stick to M2/OP and in the future learn some 3-style if this is going to be my main thing(3bld ofc)?



If after your good at M2/OP you feel like you want to learn more but don't want to commit to learning 3-style, you could learn Orozco for corners, so that you're doing Orozco/M2


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## Cuberstache (Mar 30, 2020)

gibon187 said:


> Thank you very much. So even if im planning to learn this in the future I shouldn't learn any other like orozco/eka in beetwen? Just stick to M2/OP and in the future learn some 3-style if this is going to be my main thing(3bld ofc)?


I think Orozco is a good introduction to 3-style. I did intuitive 3-style as my way of getting into it, but I would not recommend that. Orozco as a way to get the idea of how commutators work seems like a good idea, even though I didn't do it personally.


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## Habsen (Mar 30, 2020)

gibon187 said:


> Thank you very much. So even if im planning to learn this in the future I shouldn't learn any other like orozco/eka in beetwen? Just stick to M2/OP and in the future learn some 3-style if this is going to be my main thing(3bld ofc)?



You can learn Orozco for edges because these are basically all 3-style algs for one sticker. I would recommend using Q as the helper as 16 of the 20 algs are simple and very similar (M/M' interchange, setup to UF/BU as insert). The other four algs are also very similar to each other. You can learn all these algs and their inverses within a few days.
For corners, I do not recommend the Orozco method. I would learn the 21 3-style parity algs instead. Although they might be a bit slower than Orozco algs, they are very easy to use. You use the same alg for a letter, whether it comes first in the letter pair or not. They can also be learned in a few days as they are mostly setups to Ja, Jb and Y perms, which you probably already know.

These methods should be quite easy to learn and get you down to 1min if you practice a lot. The best thing is that you can learn some additional 3-style algs whenever you like and then use them immediately. And there a many commutator groups that are easy to learn due to their similarities. For edges, all combinations of {A, B, D} and {F, G, H, J, L, N, O, P, R, T} are 8/9-movers with a U/U'/U2 interchange and a R E/E'/E2 R' style insert. That is already 60 comms. For corners, there are simple 8-movers for combinations of {A, B, D} and {G, P}. Together with D/D' setups to these cases, this adds another 36 algs. There are more groups like this, but these are the best to learn in the beginning in my opinion.

Now, you might argue that knowing 20% of 3-style gives you only one edge commutator per solve on average. Even worse for corners. BUT, you can select one of the stickers for which you know the commutators every time you break into a new cycle. This significantly increases the frequency of the few commutators you might have learned.


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## brododragon (Apr 1, 2020)

For OP how many letters should be in edge and corner memo based on the amount of times you have to pick a random cubie? I know you could get very unlucky and have 10+ times you have to pick a random cubie, so just go up to, say, six.


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## Cuberstache (Apr 1, 2020)

brododragon said:


> For OP how many letters should be in edge and corner memo based on the amount of times you have to pick a random cubie? I know you could get very unlucky and have 10+ times you have to pick a random cubie, so just go up to, say, six.


I'm not sure what you're trying to say in the second sentence, but the average number of targets is about 7/11


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## brododragon (Apr 1, 2020)

CuberStache said:


> I'm not sure what you're trying to say in the second sentence, but the average number of targets is about 7/11


When you memorize edges/corners, the number of targets varies based on how many times you pick a random cubie, right? Well, for all possible numbers of random cubies picked, how many targets need to be memorized?


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## Cuberstache (Apr 1, 2020)

brododragon said:


> When you memorize edges/corners, the number of targets varies based on how many times you pick a random cubie, right? Well, for all possible numbers of random cubies picked, how many targets need to be memorized?


It also depends on how many pieces are in the correct place to start with so there isn't one answer to that question.


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## brododragon (Apr 1, 2020)

CuberStache said:


> It also depends on how many pieces are in the correct place to start with so there isn't one answer to that question.


Well, that's a simple subtraction problem, so assume there are no solved pieces.


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## Cuberstache (Apr 1, 2020)

brododragon said:


> Well, that's a simple subtraction problem, so assume there are no solved pieces.


11 edges to solve (the buffer is solved automatically when all others are solved)
+1 for every cycle break
-1 for every solved edge
+2 for every flipped edge, if you execute flips as two targets

7 corners to solve
+1 for every cycle break
-1 for every solved corner
+2 for every twisted corner, if you execute twists as two targets


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## brododragon (Apr 1, 2020)

CuberStache said:


> 11 edges to solve (the buffer is solved automatically when all others are solved)
> +1 for every cycle break
> -1 for every solved edge
> +2 for every flipped edge, if you execute flips as two targets
> ...


Thank you so much! This is exactly what I need, and better than what I wanted.


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## jronge94 (Apr 8, 2020)

Is there a good way to execute [L, D M D'] and its inverse without rotating, asked a similar question on the fb group, but I think I'll also try my luck a bit here with these questions.


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## TheSpicyBlueFlamingo (Apr 8, 2020)

Jhong253 said:


> Hi everybody,
> 
> I've been trying to learn Blindfold solving, and I did read couple online tutorials (One from cubefreak.net for example). The problem is, I have no idea what the tutorials are talking about and I haven't been able to learn anything so far.
> 
> How should I start off?


I would recommend the latest YouTube tutorial by JPerm. I started learning only yesterday, and I can already solve the edges blindfolded in 3-4 mins. (counting memo).
Jperm video:


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## lucarubik (Apr 8, 2020)

jronge94 said:


> Is there a good way to execute [L, D M D'] and its inverse without rotating, asked a similar question on the fb group, but I think I'll also try my luck a bit here with these questions.


this is too good to be shared but U' S U, R'
shhh


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## jronge94 (Apr 8, 2020)

TheSpicyBlueFlamingo said:


> I would recommend the latest YouTube tutorial by JPerm.


With the utmost respect to Dylan who provides great quality content to the cubing community I still have to say his bld tutorial is pretty bad.


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## DerpBoiMoon (Apr 11, 2020)

I want to learn blind, I've got the memo part down, but seem to mess up undoing set up moves and I'm not sure what I'm memoming is right


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## PetrusQuber (Apr 11, 2020)

DerpBoiMoon said:


> I want to learn blind, I've got the memo part down, but seem to mess up undoing set up moves and I'm not sure what I'm memoming is right


Try doing setup with open eyes, imagine you’re tracing your steps backwards. If necessary, actually remember the moves you did. 
Also, do some open eyes BLDing, every letter pair or so, open your eyes and see if you’re doing things correct, then continue, and repeat. This can hopefully get you to catch your mistakes.


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## Habsen (Apr 11, 2020)

DerpBoiMoon said:


> I want to learn blind, I've got the memo part down, but seem to mess up undoing set up moves and I'm not sure what I'm memoming is right


It is a good idea in general to practice your blind method with your eyes open until you are comfortable with it.
Regarding your setup moves, there are multiple ways to set a piece up to a specific position. Make sure to always use the inverse when undoing the setup. If you don't, the current sticker will still be solved but you will mess up other parts of the cube.


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## ProStar (Apr 11, 2020)

DerpBoiMoon said:


> I want to learn blind, I've got the memo part down, but seem to mess up undoing set up moves and I'm not sure what I'm memoming is right



Do them with eyes open at first, then once you get confident try closing your eyes, doing the setup move, then seeing if you did it correct. Also try visualizing the piece in your mind


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## dudefaceguy (Apr 11, 2020)

DerpBoiMoon said:


> I want to learn blind, I've got the memo part down, but seem to mess up undoing set up moves and I'm not sure what I'm memoming is right


When I was starting out (last week) I would do the same scramble several times until I got it right. This really helps to diagnose the errors.

I also tried scrambling multiple cubes with the same scramble, and doing all the cubes in a row. This helped to practice recall and execution.

If you have an error, you can also go back through the same scramble with your eyes open to see how the error occurred.


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## dudefaceguy (Apr 12, 2020)

Do you guys prefer stickered or stickerless cubes for blind and multiblind solving? I've seen some top cubers using stickers for blind, and I wondered if this is more common in blind events for some reason. I've tried both and there doesn't seem to be much difference at my noobish level. I use stickerless for sighted solves with Roux and my recognition is much better compared to stickers - but this is obviously much less important with blind.


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## DerpBoiMoon (Apr 12, 2020)

dudefaceguy said:


> Do you guys prefer stickered or stickerless cubes for blind and multiblind solving? I've seen some top cubers using stickers for blind, and I wondered if this is more common in blind events for some reason. I've tried both and there doesn't seem to be much difference at my noobish level. I use stickerless for sighted solves with Roux and my recognition is much better compared to stickers - but this is obviously much less important with blind.


I've been wondering this too, I think it may be because you can feel the piece borders, but I'm too nooby to even take it to my advantage


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## Cuberstache (Apr 12, 2020)

dudefaceguy said:


> Do you guys prefer stickered or stickerless cubes for blind and multiblind solving? I've seen some top cubers using stickers for blind, and I wondered if this is more common in blind events for some reason. I've tried both and there doesn't seem to be much difference at my noobish level. I use stickerless for sighted solves with Roux and my recognition is much better compared to stickers - but this is obviously much less important with blind.


I use a mix for MBLD and there's really no difference to me. I even have a white plastic cube and memo isn't any more difficult on that than on my stickerless main. I think the slight difficulties I have with recognition on stickered puzzles are only as a result of the pieces moving while I'm trying to look at them. In a memo it's no big deal. Others may have different opinions though.


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## jronge94 (Apr 12, 2020)

Might be a dumb question, but meh. For the UF-UB flip I still use the MU alg, but I've seen most top cubers now use an RFSU alg which I can't (yet) execute as fast. Is the alg really that much better and how to fingertrick the RFSU one properly?
Also is there a good list somewhere with good UF flipping algs and maybe some videos on how to execute the edge flipping algs.


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## Cuberstache (Apr 12, 2020)

jronge94 said:


> Might be a dumb question, but meh. For the UF-UB flip I still use the MU alg, but I've seen most top cubers now use an RFSU alg which I can't (yet) execute as fast. Is the alg really that much better and how to fingertrick the RFSU one properly?
> Also is there a good list somewhere with good UF flipping algs and maybe some videos on how to execute the edge flipping algs.


The 3-style sheet I learned from (Daniel's) has UF-XY flip algs, including the RFSU one for UF-UB. I can execute the RFSU one faster than the MU one (1.24 vs 1.64 after a few attempts). As for fingertricking it, do the F', S', and S moves with your left index finger and everything else should be obvious. One thing to note is that I do M moves with my left hand and I think that's actually better for this alg because of the moves that follow.


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## dudefaceguy (Apr 13, 2020)

CuberStache said:


> I use a mix for MBLD and there's really no difference to me. I even have a white plastic cube and memo isn't any more difficult on that than on my stickerless main. I think the slight difficulties I have with recognition on stickered puzzles are only as a result of the pieces moving while I'm trying to look at them. In a memo it's no big deal. Others may have different opinions though.


Great, thanks. I feel the same way. Good chance to use the stickeres cubes I normally don't use for Roux.


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## dudefaceguy (Apr 19, 2020)

Is there somewhere I can find blind reconstructions that include the Speffz memo? I sometimes like to do mental practice without a cube handy.

Edit: I found the memo generator app for Android, which does the trick.


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## gibon187 (Apr 24, 2020)

Hi, I've been practising 3bld for some time. 1-1:30 exec 1-2 min memo. OP is very boring so i wanted to go further. At first i wanted to work out with corners, then edges so i want to know if this is accurate. Searched for some 3-style tutorials and found out that some of 3bld cubers are using UBL as buffer like same in the OP and that wouldn't "destroy" my letter scheme and memo cause i will stick to 3-style/OP without and change literally. Is it worth going first for 3-style corners and then for edges so then then pure 3-style for both edges and corners. One more thing saw that many people are using UFR as buffer also so can you tell me which is "better"?


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## Sub1Hour (Apr 24, 2020)

I would say use something like M2 or Eka, then 3-style. Please note that I am not a 3bld expert but this is an easier transition path to learning 3-style


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## WarriorCatCuber (Apr 24, 2020)

From what I've heard, here's what to do :
1. OP/OP
2. OP/M2
3. Orozco/M2
4. Orozco/Eka
5. now start learning 3-style


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## gibon187 (Apr 25, 2020)

Sub1Hour said:


> I would say use something like M2 or Eka, then 3-style. Please note that I am not a 3bld expert but this is an easier transition path to learning 3-style



I know how 3-style works so i think that will be a big deal, as i said i will start with only corners at first.



WarriorCatCuber said:


> From what I've heard, here's what to do :
> 1. OP/OP
> 2. OP/M2
> 3. Orozco/M2
> ...



Heard from maaany people that there is no point in learning M2, it teaches very bad buffer DF so i will avoid that at first. Yeah thinking about orozco either for corners, heard that this is quite good and fast. Can you say more about that?


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## ProStar (Apr 25, 2020)

gibon187 said:


> Heard from maaany people that there is no point in learning M2, it teaches very bad buffer DF so i will avoid that at first. Yeah thinking about orozco either for corners, heard that this is quite good and fast. Can you say more about that?



People who say you shouldn't learn M2/OP are stupid. It's a great next method after full OP. Also think hard before you commit to 3-style, even though everything is a commutator you still have to learn them and know the few hundred different ones, you can't just make them up on the spot


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## Habsen (Apr 25, 2020)

I would recommend to learn an advanced edge method first as it will improve a larger fraction of the pieces you have to solve. M2 is a great method, however, if you think about learning 3-style later, I would prefer Orozco with UF as buffer and BU as helper. It is very similar to M2 and by learning this you already know 24 of 440 3-style algs. Most top BLDers agree that UF/UFR is one of the best buffer combinations. So UFR is highly recommended in this case.


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## ProStar (Apr 25, 2020)

Habsen said:


> I would recommend to learn an advanced edge method first as it will improve a larger fraction of the pieces you have to solve. M2 is a great method, however, if you think about learning 3-style later, I would prefer Orozco with UF as buffer and BU as helper. It is very similar to M2 and by learning this you already know 24 of 440 3-style algs. Most top BLDers agree that UF/UFR is one of the best buffer combinations. So UFR is highly recommended in this case.



Orozco is for corners, not edges. And just because your buffer is something different for M2 doesn't mean you can't ever change it to UFR if you do continue to 3-style.

I'd also like to here the opinions of @sigalig and @porkynator (best 3BLDers I know of on the forums)


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## Cuberstache (Apr 25, 2020)

ProStar said:


> Orozco is for corners, not edges.


This is wrong. Orozco works the same exact way for edges as it does for corners: Using 3-style algs to solve one piece at a time rather than two.


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## sqAree (Apr 25, 2020)

ProStar said:


> People who say you shouldn't learn M2/OP are stupid. It's a great next method after full OP. Also think hard before you commit to 3-style, even though everything is a commutator you still have to learn them and know the few hundred different ones, you can't just make them up on the spot



You confuse being stupid with being right.
M2 is just a pretty bad method, even if you don't want to commit to 3-style right away, there are other (strictly better) alternatives, like Eka and Orozco (which both have their own advantages and disadvantages, but are in every regard better than M2).


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## Habsen (Apr 25, 2020)

sqAree said:


> You confuse being stupid with being right.
> M2 is just a pretty bad method, even if you don't want to commit to 3-style right away, there are other (strictly better) alternatives, like Eka and Orozco (which both have their own advantages and disadvantages, but are in every regard better than M2).


Can you explain why you think Orozco is so much better than M2?


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## sqAree (Apr 25, 2020)

Habsen said:


> Can you explain why you think Orozco is so much better than M2?


Sure, you can think of M2 being a special case of Orozco, with DF buffer and UB helper. Thanks to that almost all the algs share the same interchange (M2) that sometimes cancels with each other, but apart from that the algs are significantly worse than those of the UF buffer (even if you fingertrick the M2 correctly and don't always do the doubleflick that causes like 2 regrips per alg).
And the learning difficulty is probably around the same for both methods, considering that M2 needs a few special algs as well and that many UF-Orozco algs follow the same principle, just with a U2 interchange. I can see it can be argued that M2 is more braindead (good for beginners) in the sense that with Orozco you have to learn the inverses for every alg too and alternate between inverses and normal algs, but I'd argue it's actually even more braindead for Orozco because you have to do that every single time, whereas with M2 there are a few targets that require this so you have to be more attentive generally.
And last but not least, even if you don't plan to get into 3-style any time soon, Orozco equips you with the first full sticker set of comms for the best buffer already, for free, while time spent with M2 is like, wasted, in the long run.


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## dudefaceguy (Apr 25, 2020)

ProStar said:


> you can't just make them up on the spot


Well ... you definitely can. Just not extremely quickly. My execution is about 1:45 after about 2 weeks of intuitive 3-style. I'm not looking to set any records though - any competent speed cuber would be way faster than me even using my janky made up techniques.

3 style is extremely fun, so I say dive right in and just start learning it.


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## Habsen (Apr 25, 2020)

sqAree said:


> Sure, you can think of M2 being a special case of Orozco, with DF buffer and UB helper. Thanks to that almost all the algs share the same interchange (M2) that sometimes cancels with each other, but apart from that the algs are significantly worse than those of the UF buffer (even if you fingertrick the M2 correctly and don't always do the doubleflick that causes like 2 regrips per alg).
> And the learning difficulty is probably around the same for both methods, considering that M2 needs a few special algs as well and that many UF-Orozco algs follow the same principle, just with a U2 interchange. I can see it can be argued that M2 is more braindead (good for beginners) in the sense that with Orozco you have to learn the inverses for every alg too and alternate between inverses and normal algs, but I'd argue it's actually even more braindead for Orozco because you have to do that every single time, whereas with M2 there are a few targets that require this so you have to be more attentive generally.
> And last but not least, even if you don't plan to get into 3-style any time soon, Orozco equips you with the first full sticker set of comms for the best buffer already, for free, while time spent with M2 is like, wasted, in the long run.


You made some interesting points. I am not fully convinced though. I guess that is because I am not thinking of plain M2 but "advanced" M2, e.g. with the nice algs that handle pairs of FU/BD with L/R layer stickers more efficiently. You may be right when we compare Orozco to plain M2. Which helper would you use for UF-Orozco? I am asking because I still think that learning M2 is easier. Only 3 non-trivial algs (FU, BD, BU).
Anyway, I am definitely recommending Orozco over M2 when 3-style is a realistic goal in the future, as you can see in my previous post.

Btw, thank you for hosting my first (and so far only) competition this year in Berlin.


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## sqAree (Apr 25, 2020)

Habsen said:


> You made some interesting points. I am not fully convinced though. I guess that is because I am not thinking of plain M2 but "advanced" M2, e.g. with the nice algs that handle pairs of FU/BD with L/R layer stickers more efficiently. You may be right when we compare Orozco to plain M2. Which helper would you use for UF-Orozco? I am asking because I still think that learning M2 is easier. Only 3 non-trivial algs (FU, BD, BU).
> Anyway, I am definitely recommending Orozco over M2 when 3-style is a realistic goal in the future, as you can see in my previous post.
> 
> Btw, thank you for hosting my first (and so far only) competition this year in Berlin.


UF-Orozco should be done with UB helper (it's the fastest sticker set for UF). For 4BLD wings, I'd recommend BUr though (because r/r' is significantly easier on big cubes than E/S slice variants).

I think comparing Orozco with advanced M2 doesn't make sense at all. How advanced can your M2 be? There is no universal definition of what is "advanced M2". Sure, you can add tons of tricks and comms to basic M2 to make it far better than other intermediate methods, but at some point you're basically using 3-style (albeit a bad version of it), so it's not too surprising it surpasses Orozco and the like.  I can do the same with Orozco and add tons of comms to catch up. However, in the end the advanced M2 person is left with a worse buffer.

But you're also right that M2 - might - be a bit easier to learn than Orozco, however not sure if the difference is all that huge. There is also a method called U2, which is basically UF-Orozco except that you setup to a U2-interchange all the time; which cancels out just like the M2 in M2 does, then you have a method that is exactly the same as M2 regarding its difficulty but still has the benefit of faster algs and a better buffer. Although at that point you're so close to using Orozco that you can as well use Orozco, but that's beside the point (I actually took the route of switching from M2 to U2 and from there to 3-style so I know what I'm talking about, however, these days I know better and wouldn't really recommend U2 anymore because of it's inferiority to Orozco which is where I'm coming from).

After all, if you're dedicated enough to dive into 3-style, having to switch from a worse buffer / method might not stop you anyway. 

I want to add that it's the general consensus among the top BLDers that M2 is bad (source: many postings from different people over the past few months / years in the BLD Support Group on Facebook). I hope that my argument that now consists of reason as well as appeal to authority can convince some people. ^^

PS: You're welcome, it was a pleasure to organize that competition and give everyone (near Berlin or from far away) the chance to compete!


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## Habsen (Apr 25, 2020)

sqAree said:


> UF-Orozco should be done with UB helper (it's the fastest sticker set for UF). For 4BLD wings, I'd recommend BUr though (because r/r' is significantly easier on big cubes than E/S slice variants).
> 
> I think comparing Orozco with advanced M2 doesn't make sense at all. How advanced can your M2 be? There is no universal definition of what is "advanced M2". Sure, you can add tons of tricks and comms to basic M2 to make it far better than other intermediate methods, but at some point you're basically using 3-style (albeit a bad version of it), so it's not too surprising it surpasses Orozco and the like.  I can do the same with Orozco and add tons of comms to catch up. However, in the end the advanced M2 person is left with a worse buffer.
> 
> ...


Thank you for your detailed argument. You have given me something to think about.

I think we can conclude that learning Orozco for edges would be a good next step for the thread opener, using UF as buffer and UB as helper (not BU as I initially recommended).


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## porkynator (Apr 25, 2020)

ProStar said:


> Orozco is for corners, not edges. And just because your buffer is something different for M2 doesn't mean you can't ever change it to UFR if you do continue to 3-style.
> 
> I'd also like to here the opinions of @sigalig and @porkynator (best 3BLDers I know of on the forums)



I am not the best to judge here, since I didn't use any of the intermediate methods mentioned in this thread (I did OP/OP -> OP/Turbo -> 3-style).

From what I've heard, Orozco seems to be a very good intermediate method, because it offers a smooth transition to 3-style. The transition from M2 might be slightly harder (especially if you plan to change buffer), but far from impossible.
Going straight to 3-style is also possible, but it takes more work and one might lose motivation midway through it. Learning an intermediate method and gradually transitioning to 3-style makes practicing more fun in my opinion, because you can apply immediately what you learn


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## gibon187 (Apr 25, 2020)

I've read all of your comments, coming to conclusion i will at first learn orozco for corners and stick to OP for edges for while to get into it (with orozco ofc) and then go for 3-style corners. Then figure something out with edges, cause as @sqAree said, there is no point at all to learn this. 

btw. @sqAree can i dm you for further questions or something?


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## NevEr_QeyX (Apr 25, 2020)

I just learned orozco for corners and I was wondering if anybody had tips for me. I didn't memorize the algs, I do them semi intuitively (is that bad?). 
I am having trouble especially with the Q and N stickers. Everytime I solve one of them I always mess it up for some reason.

Thanks!


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## sqAree (Apr 26, 2020)

gibon187 said:


> I've read all of your comments, coming to conclusion i will at first learn orozco for corners and stick to OP for edges for while to get into it (with orozco ofc) and then go for 3-style corners. Then figure something out with edges, cause as @sqAree said, there is no point at all to learn this.
> 
> btw. @sqAree can i dm you for further questions or something?


Sure, go ahead. ^^


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## lucarubik (Apr 26, 2020)

I used to use use 3OP yes that is a thing M2 and got into 3style, first corners then edges with little trouble, and all the information there was back then was that beyer hardwick sheet and a 3 min brian yu "tutorial"
alsoi did change buffers to UB and it wasnt too inpactfull since neither UB nor BU had letters i had to unlearn. 3OP doesnt use a fixed buffer
i think you might regret not going for it stirght away and with the best buffers, first corners then edges or the other way around.


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## NevEr_QeyX (Apr 26, 2020)

Please don't everybody speak at once...


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## VIBE_ZT (Apr 26, 2020)

*Hello SS forum, I've got a quick question about 4x4 blindfolded.*

So, I have recently begun learning the Eka method for 3BLD edges, and I really love the method. I'm hoping that I can use it as a stepping stone to learn more comm sets, and eventually "full" 3-style.

_But I can only solve 4x4 blindfolded with U2, R2, and OP._


So my question is.... 

*Does there exist any so-called "intermediate" methods for 4x4 blindfolded that aren't full 3-style? Something like a Orozco or Eka equivalent for 4x4 Blindfolded?*


Thanks! I'm deeply sorry if this has been asked before on this thread, I must have missed it.


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## EliteCuber (Apr 26, 2020)

Jhong253 said:


> Hi everybody,
> 
> I've been trying to learn Blindfold solving, and I did read couple online tutorials (One from cubefreak.net for example). The problem is, I have no idea what the tutorials are talking about and I haven't been able to learn anything so far.
> 
> How should I start off?


did u learn old pochman? u should learn that first. Jperms tutorial is the best.


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## PetrusQuber (Apr 26, 2020)

EliteCuber said:


> did u learn old pochman? u should learn that first. Jperms tutorial is the best.


You are replying to a post from 12 years back. Please check the date of the post before you reply.


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## lucarubik (Apr 26, 2020)

cubefreak.net thats maki's site thats where I learnt from!
macky*


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## Dylan Swarts (Apr 26, 2020)

VIBE_ZT said:


> *Hello SS forum, I've got a quick question about 4x4 blindfolded.*
> 
> So, I have recently begun learning the Eka method for 3BLD edges, and I really love the method. I'm hoping that I can use it as a stepping stone to learn more comm sets, and eventually "full" 3-style.
> 
> ...


There is!
The first video I saw on this was Adrian Debski's but it used the Ubl buffer, which is not what we want, we want Ufr.
So I went ahead and made one, using the knowledge from that video. It is pretty easy, so I can't take any credit, except for compiling it in one (very badly managed) spreadsheet and adding a few useful things for some cases.
*Basically:*
-All F, R, L, B face targets set up to the left-top most corner, all D targets to the Dfr position, and with a few algs, you can solve *any* combination of those (except if you have like 2 targets on one face, which is utterly useless).
-For U face and F/R/L/B face target combination, you do it intuitively (using Orozco and basic comm knowledge).
-For U face and D face combo's, you learn a very inefficient way, but it allows you to solve those cases, until like 2 days later when you learn the proper few algs.
Here it is, I might make a video tutorial but this should suffice.

PS: As I opened the document I realized just how bad it is, I do apologize, I shall have to do something about that..


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## Dylan Swarts (Apr 26, 2020)

Sorry, just realized you asked for 4bld as a whole and not just centers, but this should help move count of centers a bunch. As for the other piece types:
-Corners: just use orozco, takes a while to get used to exec, and figure out your own way of dealing with parity.
-Wings: I use orozco, which I directly translated over from edges on 3bld and 'learnt' a handful more algs.
Hope that helps.. \o/


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## y235 (Apr 26, 2020)

VIBE_ZT said:


> *Hello SS forum, I've got a quick question about 4x4 blindfolded.*
> 
> So, I have recently begun learning the Eka method for 3BLD edges, and I really love the method. I'm hoping that I can use it as a stepping stone to learn more comm sets, and eventually "full" 3-style.
> 
> ...


You could adapt Orozco, Eka, or TuRBo to 4x4 quite easily - the principles remain the same, you just need to find the right algs. Let's take Orozco for example - you just need to generate the algorithms for all the Buffer-Helper-Target cycles. 
Luckily, you can take the algorithms from Oliver Frost's big bld 3-style alg sheet (clickable). Or you can generate them on your own - but if you can do that, you don't need to learn those intermediate methods.


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## Dylan Swarts (Apr 26, 2020)

NevEr_QeyX said:


> I just learned orozco for corners and I was wondering if anybody had tips for me. I didn't memorize the algs, I do them semi intuitively (is that bad?).
> I am having trouble especially with the Q and N stickers. Everytime I solve one of them I always mess it up for some reason.
> 
> Thanks!


Okie, let's go

Intuitive = good.
I wish I had known enough to have learnt it intuitively, but I did not.

Tips:
Well, practice a lot, drill the comms until you can do them pretty quick. Do corner only solves on CsTimer.net

N, Q:
I'm assuming speffz, as on speffz, those are the stickers on the helper buffer and the only confusing ones. It is pretty hard to remember so you just gotta find a way to remember it.


Spoiler: The more detailed (and somewhat humorous version)



if N = 1st letter then
start with interchange (and then (R' D R D')*2)
else (if N= 2nd letter) 
start with (R' D R D')*2 (and then interchange)

if Q = 1st letter then
start with (R' D R D')*2 (and then interchange)
else (if Q = 2nd letter)
start with interchange (and then (R' D R D')*2)


Basically when N is the first letter in the letterpair/ Q is the second letter in the letterpair, do U first
if N is second/ Q is first, do double-upside-down-sexy first


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## NevEr_QeyX (Apr 26, 2020)

Dylan Swarts said:


> Okie, let's go
> 
> Intuitive = good.
> I wish I had known enough to have learnt it intuitively, but I did not.
> ...



Thanks! I watched some more tutorials that say to do the ZBLL that goes lefty sune —) sune and reverse it for N. I think it works, I mean it hasn’t not worked, but maybe I keep getting lucky idk. My only problem is now I can’t seem to do edges anymore, lol, so I thought maybe It’s time to learn a comm based edges method, is orozco or eka edges significnatly better than M2?


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## VIBE_ZT (Apr 27, 2020)

y235 said:


> You could adapt Orozco, Eka, or TuRBo to 4x4 quite easily - the principles remain the same, you just need to find the right algs. Let's take Orozco for example - you just need to generate the algorithms for all the Buffer-Helper-Target cycles.
> Luckily, you can take the algorithms from Oliver Frost's big bld 3-style alg sheet (clickable). Or you can generate them on your own - but if you can do that, you don't need to learn those intermediate methods.



I actually just found an Eka wings tutorial by Adrian Debski which is actually quite good!

I will definitely have to experiment with the centers method that @Dylan Swarts came up with though, (maybe add to it ). I'll see what I can come up with!

For now though, my priority is learning Eka on 3x3, but I think after that, I might just have to take a look at this stuff .

Thanks all for the help!


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## Dylan Swarts (Apr 27, 2020)

NevEr_QeyX said:


> Thanks! I watched some more tutorials that say to do the ZBLL that goes lefty sune —) sune and reverse it for N. I think it works, I mean it hasn’t not worked, but maybe I keep getting lucky idk. My only problem is now I can’t seem to do edges anymore, lol, so I thought maybe It’s time to learn a comm based edges method, is orozco or eka edges significnatly better than M2?


Both are quite a bit better, but a number of people will recommend Eka over Orozco. I used orozco and I was very happy with it, although Eka seems really interesting and I do believe it will give a better understanding on comms, because you need to think a bit more than Orozco. Also Eka solves 2 pieces at a time, where Orozco does not, but Orozco comms might in some cases be faster than the Eka way of solving it.


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## WarriorCatCuber (Apr 27, 2020)

NevEr_QeyX said:


> Thanks! I watched some more tutorials that say to do the ZBLL that goes lefty sune —) sune and reverse it for N. I think it works, I mean it hasn’t not worked, but maybe I keep getting lucky idk. My only problem is now I can’t seem to do edges anymore, lol, so I thought maybe It’s time to learn a comm based edges method, is orozco or eka edges significnatly better than M2?


Eka is better then M2, Orozco is worst then M2. So OP<Orozco<M2<eka<3-style


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## fun at the joy (Apr 27, 2020)

WarriorCatCuber said:


> Eka is better then M2, Orozco is worst then M2. So OP<Orozco<M2<eka<3-style


could you explain that please
never knew that you are such a bind expert


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## WarriorCatCuber (Apr 27, 2020)

fun at the joy said:


> could you explain that please
> never knew that you are such a bind expert


I am no blind expert. I have never gotten a success and am still trying to learn more stuff.
That comes from the beginning of this video


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## sqAree (Apr 27, 2020)

WarriorCatCuber said:


> I am no blind expert. I have never gotten a success and am still trying to learn more stuff.
> That comes from the beginning of this video


Sure, let's say something about the general viability of different methods based on a bo1 result of a random case of a random person who may or may not be more comfortable with one of the methods than the other. 
M2 is literally a special case of Orozco and thus worse.


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## NevEr_QeyX (Apr 27, 2020)

Dylan Swarts said:


> Both are quite a bit better, but a number of people will recommend Eka over Orozco. I used orozco and I was very happy with it, although Eka seems really interesting and I do believe it will give a better understanding on comms, because you need to think a bit more than Orozco. Also Eka solves 2 pieces at a time, where Orozco does not, but Orozco comms might in some cases be faster than the Eka way of solving it.


Ok thanks! I think I'll try Eka but if that is too difficult I'll do orozco.


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## sigalig (Apr 30, 2020)

ProStar said:


> People who say you shouldn't learn M2/OP are stupid. It's a great next method after full OP. Also think hard before you commit to 3-style, even though everything is a commutator you still have to learn them and know the few hundred different ones, you can't just make them up on the spot



I know at least 10 top 3blders who say you shouldn't learn M2. In their opinion, if you plan to eventually learn 3style, you should just start with op/op and from there do UF/UFR orozco, then 3style. Anything else is a huge waste of time.

Given that you didn't realize the info above, or know that orozco can be used for both corners and edges, I'd say it's a bad idea to make such strong statements like you have about anything related to 3bld. You should make sure you're actually fairly knowledgeable on the subject before calling a bunch of actually knowledgeable people "stupid".


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## tx789 (Apr 30, 2020)

ProStar said:


> Also think hard before you commit to 3-style, even though everything is a commutator you still have to learn them and know the few hundred different ones, you can't just make them up on the spot


Wrong. You can make then up on the spot if you understand how comms work. You will want to change to speed optimal ones if you really care about being fast. But you can make then up on the spot.


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## BenChristman1 (Apr 30, 2020)

ProStar said:


> Orozco is for corners, not edges. And just because your buffer is something different for M2 doesn't mean you can't ever change it to UFR if you do continue to 3-style.
> 
> I'd also like to here the opinions of @sigalig and @porkynator (best 3BLDers I know of on the forums)


Who is @porkynator?


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## fun at the joy (Apr 30, 2020)

BenChristman1 said:


> Who is @porkynator?


why is it so hard to just look at his profile.


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## mitja (May 1, 2020)

gibon187 said:


> I've read all of your comments, coming to conclusion i will at first learn orozco for corners and stick to OP for edges for while to get into it (with orozco ofc) and then go for 3-style corners. Then figure something out with edges, cause as @sqAree said, there is no point at all to learn this.
> 
> btw. @sqAree can i dm you for further questions or something?


I can tell from my experience that switching from M2 for edges to 3 style is quite hard. In the last 2 years i tried few times but i felt uncomfortable with DF buffer so I gave up. Which, by the way, is great for avanced M2. I read above some underestimaton for this method, but it is very fast and very much like 3style with UB as helper piece. Also, if you keep the DF buffer it is very convenient for gradual transition. Whenever you don’t know the comm, just use advanced M2 and you don’t loose much on speed.
I had a lot of time in the last 1 1/2 month and I finally forced myself to switch the buffers to UFR/UF. I needed 2 weeks to get used to it and about full month to learn and not want to use my old method. In my case there is no way to use your old method when you get lost. Especially with edges.
but, with the edges, UF buffer is really good for the slower person like me.( i am not very young anymore).
One more thing, everybody recommends to learn corners, then edges. But form me, edges are a bit easier with UFR/UF. I understand it is opposite with UBL/DF. 
I never tried Orosco, but it sounds very good for understanding 3 style.


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## Jack Chan (May 3, 2020)

What do I do when I get RU in Orozco?
I am learning Orozco method. Hope you guys will help me.


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## Habsen (May 3, 2020)

Jack Chan said:


> What do I do when I get RU in Orozco?
> I am learning Orozco method. Hope you guys will help me.


I am assuming that UR is your helper sticker. So, when you get RU, you can solve it to UR and do a flipping algorithm in the end, e.g. R' E2 R2 E' R' U' R E R2 E2 R U.


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## Username: Username: (May 3, 2020)

I don't have a problem with the technical stuff like cycles and buffer or what BLD method I use, I just have a trouble remembering the speffz lettering scheme, I always forget it somehow. how could I remember it in my brain?

edit : not related to the post above


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## Habsen (May 3, 2020)

Username: Username: said:


> I don't have a problem with the technical stuff like cycles and buffer or what BLD method I use, I just have a trouble remembering the speffz lettering scheme, I always forget it somehow. how could I remember it in my brain?
> 
> edit : not related to the post above


In the beginning, it helps a lot to know the first letter of every side, i.e. AEIMQU. You can derive the other letter from them easily. After a while, with practice, this will become automatic and you don't need to think about it anymore.


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## SirCuberCat (May 11, 2020)

So I was wondering about look ahead and thought of some things that help make the move count lower, such as x crosses, multislotting etc. 

So if you apply most of these concepts to a blindfolded solve, is it possible to do that?


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## Hazel (May 11, 2020)

Possible? Yes. People have done it. Inspection tends to take around an hour for experienced speedsolvers.

Fast? No way. Again - an hour for inspection. Even with tons of practice and little tricks, you're better off using a real BLD method.


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## Username: Username: (May 11, 2020)

SirCuberCat said:


> So I was wondering about look ahead and thought of some things that help make the move count lower, such as x crosses, multislotting etc.
> 
> So if you apply most of these concepts to a blindfolded solve, is it possible to do that?


It would be wayyyy too hard. You'd have to one look the entire solution by tracing, and during Cross and F2L, lots of things move around.


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## SirCuberCat (May 11, 2020)

Username: Username: said:


> It would be wayyyy too hard. You'd have to one look the entire solution by tracing, and during Cross and F2L, lots of things move around.


I knew it wouldn't be fast at all, although, i think j perm's video on one looking is good,



pray for a ll skip people


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## brododragon (May 11, 2020)

@Lucas Garron did speed BLD (Basically what your talking about) inspection in 8 minutes apperently.


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## nooneisperfect (May 15, 2020)

Hi, I'm pretty new to bld.
and I didn't understand when you have a flipped buffer, to know where will be the second flipped piece at the end. 
please help.


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## Cuberstache (May 15, 2020)

nooneisperfect said:


> Hi, I'm pretty new to bld.
> and I didn't understand when you have a flipped buffer, to know where will be the second flipped piece at the end.
> please help.


The short answer is, there isn't one. If your buffer starts flipped, you may have another flipped piece or you may not - the same as if your buffer is solved to begin with, or anywhere else. Because of how cycle breaks work, whether the buffer is flipped or not has no effect on other pieces being flipped. Just look for the flips separately.


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## 2018AMSB02 (May 15, 2020)

nooneisperfect said:


> Hi, I'm pretty new to bld.
> and I didn't understand when you have a flipped buffer, to know where will be the second flipped piece at the end.
> please help.



@CuberStache is correct, and when your buffer is in the right place but flipped, just consider it "solved" and find a new cycle. If there are no new cycles, then you did something wrong before then.


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## I'm A Cuber (May 15, 2020)

lol new cycles are the only reason I can’t do bld


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## nooneisperfect (May 15, 2020)

oh god that is working, thank you


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## PetrusQuber (May 15, 2020)

I'm A Cuber said:


> lol new cycles are the only reason I can’t do bld


All you have to do is find a sticker you don’t think has been solved, check it, and shoot to it if it hasn’t been solved.


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## I'm A Cuber (May 15, 2020)

PetrusQuber said:


> All you have to do is find a sticker you don’t think has been solved, check it, and shoot to it if it hasn’t been solved.


Yeah, I understand the concept, but I still need to use my fingers to figure out which pieces are solved, and since there are twelve edges and I have ten fingers... let’s just say I normally can’t figure out which ones are solved, and the only way to figure that out is practice, and I would only practice if I knew that I could solve it which requires me to know which ones are solved, etc etc


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## GenTheThief (May 15, 2020)

I'm A Cuber said:


> Yeah, I understand the concept, but I still need to use my fingers to figure out which pieces are solved, and since there are twelve edges and I have ten fingers... let’s just say I normally can’t figure out which ones are solved, and the only way to figure that out is practice, and I would only practice if I knew that I could solve it which requires me to know which ones are solved, etc etc


One thing you can do when you are starting blind is to write down your memo and the pieces that are solved/unsolved. You can hide the cube while you execute your solution so that you don't have to worry about memorizing anything yet.
If you write everything out, you don't need to use your fingers to touch the edges because you'll have a written record of which pieces are solved, unsolved, or already traced.


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## ProStar (May 15, 2020)

GenTheThief said:


> One thing you can do when you are starting blind is to write down your memo and the pieces that are solved/unsolved. You can hide the cube while you execute your solution so that you don't have to worry about memorizing anything yet.
> If you write everything out, you don't need to use your fingers to touch the edges because you'll have a written record of which pieces are solved, unsolved, or already traced.



I used to do that; I'd make a list of all the pieces(marking it like A/R/E for the UBL piece, since it's all of those letters(Speffz)) and then just put a Y if I had memoed it


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## AbsoRuud (May 16, 2020)

This might help you along the way.









How to train to solve your Rubik’s cube blindfolded


How to train to solve your Rubik’s cube blindfolded © 2020 Ruud Pollé This tutorial assumes you know how blindfolded solving works. This is not an explanation of the method, it’s a guide on how to train and practice. Step 1: Do the entire solve with your chosen blindfolded method, but without ...




docs.google.com





If you have any questions, I'd be happy to help further. I personally don't put a finger on the buffer piece and the spot that the buffer piece is in while I'm tracing. That saves two spots, and leaves 10 for my 10 fingers.


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## PetrusQuber (May 16, 2020)

I'm A Cuber said:


> Yeah, I understand the concept, but I still need to use my fingers to figure out which pieces are solved, and since there are twelve edges and I have ten fingers... let’s just say I normally can’t figure out which ones are solved, and the only way to figure that out is practice, and I would only practice if I knew that I could solve it which requires me to know which ones are solved, etc etc


You can try and cross out stickers in blocks, for example, if all the edge stickers in the D layer are solved, you just remember it can only be in the middle layer or the top layer now. Plus, if a sticker has been solved, the entire edge has been solved.


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## Habsen (May 16, 2020)

I'm A Cuber said:


> Yeah, I understand the concept, but I still need to use my fingers to figure out which pieces are solved, and since there are twelve edges and I have ten fingers... let’s just say I normally can’t figure out which ones are solved, and the only way to figure that out is practice, and I would only practice if I knew that I could solve it which requires me to know which ones are solved, etc etc


I use four fingers of each hand to put them on the L and R layer edges. With UF as my buffer, I remember the remaining three M slice edges without the use of my fingers. I found that this is the most ergonomic way and remembering only three edges without my fingers works very well.
You can do the same thing with the UR buffer, except that the right hand fingers touch FR, DR, BR, BU, BD. This way you only need to keep track of UF and DF.


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## I'm A Cuber (May 16, 2020)

AbsoRuud said:


> This might help you along the way.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks! I’ve known how to do it for several months, but I think this will motivate me to try again


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## Vlaya (May 16, 2020)

Hello, I'm using M2 for edges with FD buffer, and I'm wondering if there's a faster way to execute the cases where the edges are on L or R faces. For example for H (LF edge) I do B L2 B' M2 B L2 B and have to do at least 2 regrips, and the M2 is awkward.
I know about this video which introduce some advanced way of doing M2's, but I haven't found them to be useful for M2 with FD buffer, especially for B / M2 combos, but maybe I missed something.


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## Cuberstache (May 17, 2020)

Vlaya said:


> I do B L2 B' M2 B L2 B and have to do at least 2 regrips, and the M2 is awkward.


That's about all you can do, apart from starting with an x' rotation to make it U L2 U' M2 U L2 U'.


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## Vlaya (May 17, 2020)

I see, I think I'll try that, I also just found out about this series of videos (which was really helpful) which also suggests doing the x' rotation.


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## sa11297 (May 28, 2020)

Hi guys, haven't been on this forum in maybe 5-7 years? But I'm dabbling a bit with getting back into cubing, more specifically 3BLD which is one of the events I never put any real time into. I hope to learn 3 style. I saw Jperm's Orozco/Eka tutorial. What would be the best way to transition to full 3 style from Orozco? Some of the Eka solutions seems very slow/inefficient. I was thinking of using Orozco/Eka and slowly add UFR -> UFL -> target algs to the UFR -> URB -> target algs I already know for Orozco and then add UFR -> ULB -> target, etc.

Let me know if this is a bad approach and/or there are some good resources that go over this process. Thanks!


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## PetrusQuber (May 28, 2020)

sa11297 said:


> Hi guys, haven't been on this forum in maybe 5-7 years? But I'm dabbling a bit with getting back into cubing, more specifically 3BLD which is one of the events I never put any real time into. I hope to learn 3 style. I saw Jperm's Orozco/Eka tutorial. What would be the best way to transition to full 3 style from Orozco? Some of the Eka solutions seems very slow/inefficient. I was thinking of using Orozco/Eka and slowly add UFR -> UFL -> target algs to the UFR -> URB -> target algs I already know for Orozco and then add UFR -> ULB -> target, etc.
> 
> Let me know if this is a bad approach and/or there are some good resources that go over this process. Thanks!


Welcome back! Can't help you too much, I can barely do BLD, but, ah, @Dylan Swarts ?


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## Dylan Swarts (May 28, 2020)

sa11297 said:


> Hi guys, haven't been on this forum in maybe 5-7 years? But I'm dabbling a bit with getting back into cubing, more specifically 3BLD which is one of the events I never put any real time into. I hope to learn 3 style. I saw Jperm's Orozco/Eka tutorial. What would be the best way to transition to full 3 style from Orozco? Some of the Eka solutions seems very slow/inefficient. I was thinking of using Orozco/Eka and slowly add UFR -> UFL -> target algs to the UFR -> URB -> target algs I already know for Orozco and then add UFR -> ULB -> target, etc.
> 
> Let me know if this is a bad approach and/or there are some good resources that go over this process. Thanks!


I used Orozco for almost a year, and enjoyed it very much, it is truly also a great way to easily (and slowly if preferred) transition to 3 style, both for corners and edges, or either. As you might know, Orozco is one set of 3 style comms, all of which include the sticker UBR (or BU for edges) Anyway, let me just go over the entire approach I took/ or would recommend to take.
Learn Orozco (or Eka, whatever)
Then either learn some easy comms you figure out on your own, or are just very easy like [R U R', D], or start learning a set and implement that into your solves.
Basically just continue learning comms and then use them in your solves, there actually isn't a lot to say about it haha.


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## sqAree (May 28, 2020)

Dylan Swarts said:


> I used Orozco for almost a year, and enjoyed it very much, it is truly also a great way to easily (and slowly if preferred) transition to 3 style, both for corners and edges, or either. As you might know, Orozco is one set of 3 style comms, all of which include the sticker UBR (or BU for edges) Anyway, let me just go over the entire approach I took/ or would recommend to take.
> Learn Orozco (or Eka, whatever)
> Then either learn some easy comms you figure out on your own, or are just very easy like [R U R', D], or start learning a set and implement that into your solves.
> Basically just continue learning comms and then use them in your solves, there actually isn't a lot to say about it haha.


Although obviously every helper can work, the best one should be used, so small correction *UB instead of BU.


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## sa11297 (May 29, 2020)

Dylan Swarts said:


> Orozco is one set of 3 style comms, all of which include the sticker UBR (or BU for edges)





sqAree said:


> Although obviously every helper can work, the best one should be used, so small correction *UB instead of BU.



Just to be clear, I am currently intending to use UF and URF buffers (and UR and UBR helpers for Orozco). Should I be using a different buffer?


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## sqAree (May 29, 2020)

sa11297 said:


> Just to be clear, I am currently intending to use UF and URF buffers (and UR and UBR helpers for Orozco). Should I be using a different buffer?


UF and UFR are indeed the best buffers. As helpers for Orozco you should use UB and UBR.
To be fair if you learn 3-style anyway, the choice of helper doesn't matter too much.
UB gives you the fastest comms.
BU is probably the easiest to learn because they're all very similar (M or M' interchange, 3 move insert), plus they work very well for 4BLD and 5BLD too (idk if you do Big Blind too, just in case).
UR is not the fastest, and (imo) somewhat harder to learn than UB or BU. It's a very useful comm set however if you ever want to do Multiblind (in case of parity, you'd append an UR comm after edges so that UF and UR are swapped).

Now you have all the information and you decide based on your situation.


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## NevEr_QeyX (Jun 14, 2020)

I've done 40+ attempts and only 3 of them were successes! I use M2/Orozco, and I average 1:50. Even when I safety my solves I get DNFs. Is there a practice technique I could use to get more successes? I'm getting pretty demotivated so I'm willing to try anything at this point


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## ProStar (Jun 14, 2020)

NevEr_QeyX said:


> I've done 40+ attempts and only 3 of them were successes! I use M2/Orozco, and I average 1:50. Even when I safety my solves I get DNFs. Is there a practice technique I could use to get more successes? I'm getting pretty demotivated so I'm willing to try anything at this point



Are you messing up memo or exec?


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## NevEr_QeyX (Jun 14, 2020)

ProStar said:


> Are you messing up memo or exec?


When do attempts it's usually a 50/50 split of both.


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## ProStar (Jun 14, 2020)

NevEr_QeyX said:


> When do attempts it's usually a 50/50 split of both.



For memo, try to go safer and review more. Make sure you're making images and not memorizing letters. If you have to at first, use Roman Rooms

For exec, practice your setup moves, do sighted solves. Use a trainer to give you a scramble and the memo so you can just do exec


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## NevEr_QeyX (Jun 14, 2020)

ProStar said:


> For memo, try to go safer and review more. Make sure you're making images and not memorizing letters. If you have to at first, use Roman Rooms
> 
> For exec, practice your setup moves, do sighted solves. Use a trainer to give you a scramble and the memo so you can just do exec


I'm not a beginner, I can easily memo all the letter pairs and do visual and audio memo for corners and edges respectively. I have no idea what the problem is but I CAN'T GET A POOPIN' SUCCESS. My memo time is 20-13 seconds for corners and 40-30 for edges, my execution is pretty good I think.


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## PetrusQuber (Jun 14, 2020)

NevEr_QeyX said:


> I'm not a beginner, I can easily memo all the letter pairs and do visual and audio memo for corners and edges respectively. I have no idea what the problem is but I CAN'T GET A POOPIN' SUCCESS. My memo time is 20-13 seconds for corners and 40-30 for edges, my execution is pretty good I think.


Well, it’s clearly not very good and you are a beginner if you’re getting only 3 successes every 40 attempts. Slow down. It’s like people saying work on movecount before TPS for 3x3, listen to @ProStar. I suggest videoing yourself to see when you start to make mistakes, or opening your eyes every couple of letters.


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## FluxDigital01 (Jun 14, 2020)

Vlaya said:


> Hello, I'm using M2 for edges with FD buffer, and I'm wondering if there's a faster way to execute the cases where the edges are on L or R faces. For example for H (LF edge) I do B L2 B' M2 B L2 B and have to do at least 2 regrips, and the M2 is awkward.
> I know about this video which introduce some advanced way of doing M2's, but I haven't found them to be useful for M2 with FD buffer, especially for B / M2 combos, but maybe I missed something.



For the right face, you can do an R move to setup to the RB edge, then do Uw R Uw'. You can do the same mirrored on the left, or instead of Uw' L' Uw, you can do Uw R' Uw after setting up to LB if you're more comfortable with R moves.


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## NevEr_QeyX (Jun 14, 2020)

PetrusQuber said:


> Well, it’s clearly not very good and you are a beginner if you’re getting only 3 successes every 40 attempts. Slow down. It’s like people saying work on movecount before TPS for 3x3, listen to @ProStar. I suggest videoing yourself to see when you start to make mistakes, or opening your eyes every couple of letters.


I guess what I meant was I can do everything fast but obviously that doesn't help when you can't get successes, LOL.


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## PetrusQuber (Jun 14, 2020)

NevEr_QeyX said:


> I guess what I meant was I can do everything fast but obviously that doesn't help when you can't get successes, LOL.


If you can find the mistakes you’re mistaking, you’ll be a decently fast BLDer straight away, which isn’t a total waste.


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## dudefaceguy (Jun 15, 2020)

NevEr_QeyX said:


> I guess what I meant was I can do everything fast but obviously that doesn't help when you can't get successes, LOL.





PetrusQuber said:


> If you can find the mistakes you’re mistaking, you’ll be a decently fast BLDer straight away, which isn’t a total waste.


I agree: you need some diagnosis so that you can focus your practice. Make your goal 100% accuracy. Here are some suggestions:

1. Conservative memo. Memo corners, review corners, memo edges, review edges, review corners and edges together, then start the solve. You may have to switch to images for both edges and corners to accommodate all of that reviewing. Audio memo only works well if you can memorize accurately without review.

2. Conservative execution. Visualize the whole alg before execution. Visualize setup move, alg execution, and reversing setup move. Then execute.

This will be difficult and your solves will take a long time. Your goal is not to set a new PB, or even to improve your times: it's to practice, which is different than performance. Practice focuses on what you do poorly, and requires patience and discipline. I recommend untimed solves when working on accuracy.

Once you can get close to 100% accuracy, then work on introducing other techniques that make you faster, like cutting out some of the memo review.

If you really love to time yourself, you can also try a blind relay to focus on accuracy: scramble all of your 3x3s and start solving them as 3BLD solves. Stop the timer when you get 5 successes. Based on your current success rate, you will need 50 solves to get 5 successes! The more accurate you are, the faster you will be able to get 5 successes.


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## Dylan Swarts (Jun 15, 2020)

This is some good advice. I need to go a bit slower on exec, if only to learn to cancel out moves in my solves (D2 from comm and D from setup into D') and be more fluid.


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## dudefaceguy (Jun 15, 2020)

Dylan Swarts said:


> This is some good advice. I need to go a bit slower on exec, if only to learn to cancel out moves in my solves (D2 from comm and D from setup into D') and be more fluid.


Check out the book Effortless Mastery by Kenny Warner. It's all about how to practice and perform - the context is music, but it also applied to any other performance and practice, such as cubing. It seems like many cubers "practice" by just doing a lot of solves, which is not the most effective method.

I took a class with Kenny Warner, but never actually read the book - maybe I should go back and do that. The main insight I'm thinking of is the difference between practice and performance.


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## edudegomes (Jun 16, 2020)

Hello guys, I'm a beginner speedcuber and I want to know the best 3x3 blindfolded method for a begginer. Thanks!


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## ProStar (Jun 16, 2020)

Old Pochman. J Perm has three tutorials, V2 and V3 are both good


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## Dylan Swarts (Jun 16, 2020)

You can also try learn 3 style intuitively as your first method. It just takes some more effort but 3 style is the best blind method. Also, I'm sure it was not necessary to create a new thread for just this question, you should have asked in the Blindfolded Help Thread or One Answer BLD Questions


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## dudefaceguy (Jun 16, 2020)

Dylan Swarts said:


> You can also try learn 3 style intuitively as your first method. It just takes some more effort but 3 style is the best blind method. Also, I'm sure it was not necessary to create a new thread for just this question, you should have asked in the Blindfolded Help Thread or One Answer BLD Questions


I learned intuitive 3 style as my first blind method, since I'm an intuitive cuber and I use a lot of commutators generally. I also don't know any CFOP algs so OP would have entailed learning more new concepts than learning 3 style. Here's my guide: 









Intuitive 3-Style as a Beginner Blind Method


I recently learned 3-style as my first blind method. I did it completely intuitively, without memorizing any algorithms. This is an explanation of what I did, and a collection of the resources that I used. I hope that it will be helpful to others who want to learn 3-style intuitively for fun...




www.speedsolving.com





But it depends on your goals. I suggest starting with the method that you eventually want to use. If you are sure that you eventually want to learn 3 style, just start with 3 style. You only need to learn 8 commutators to start with, and you can solve everything using conjugates and mirrors.

If you want to learn 3BLD as fast as possible using CFOP algs, and you don't intend it to be your main event, then just use OP. You can easily get sub-1-minute using OP for corners and M2 for edges, so there is no reason to learn 3 style unless you either 1) want to be world class or 2) think commutators are really fun. I love commutators, so I started with 3 style. I personally recommend it, since it's incredibly fun.

Whichever execution method you choose, you will have to invest a lot of work in memorization to get fast. You can use the same memo methods for all 3BLD execution methods.


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## edudegomes (Jun 16, 2020)

I'm a beginner speedcuber and I want to know the best blindfolded method for beginners. Thanks!


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## PetrusQuber (Jun 16, 2020)

edudegomes said:


> I'm a beginner speedcuber and I want to know the best blindfolded method for beginners. Thanks!


Old Pochmann.


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## Username: Username: (Jun 16, 2020)

Old Pochmann is the way to go, buuut if you really want, you could get head start and learn M2 for edges but that's a bit hard for a beginner, so I recommend OP.


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## EngiNerdBrian (Jun 17, 2020)

dudefaceguy said:


> Check out the book Effortless Mastery by Kenny Warner. It's all about how to practice and perform - the context is music, but it also applied to any other performance and practice, such as cubing. It seems like many cubers "practice" by just doing a lot of solves, which is not the most effective method.
> 
> I took a class with Kenny Warner, but never actually read the book - maybe I should go back and do that. The main insight I'm thinking of is the difference between practice and performance.


The book sounds interesting. Reminds me of Talent is Overrated by Geoff Colvin. Ever read it?

@NevEr_QeyX i think @PetrusQuber is giving good advice. I think you should just slow down. You clearly CANT perform memo and execution as fast as you say you can since you have so many DNFs. Focus on the quality of the solves with time as no object.


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## dudefaceguy (Jun 17, 2020)

EngineeringBrian said:


> The book sounds interesting. Reminds me of Talent is Overrated by Geoff Colvin. Ever read it?
> 
> @NevEr_QeyX i think @PetrusQuber is giving good advice. I think you should just slow down. You clearly CANT perform memo and execution as fast as you say you can since you have so many DNFs. Focus on the quality of the solves with time as no object.


I haven’t read that one, but the basic point made in many other books as well. I recently read “Mookwalking with Einstein” which is about memory sports. It briefly discusses practice techniques and the importance of analysis and focus.


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## VIBE_ZT (Jul 6, 2020)

Alright so...

I have been learning 3x3 Blindfolded 3-style for about 4 months.

I learned Eka edges, and some extra algs for the A and D comm sets. I learned the A, B, and D sets for corner comms, and set up like Eka. I feel comfortable executing every single comm.

I haven't gotten a single success yet. Period. After a few hundred attempts with this "3-style", I haven't been able to get more than maybe half the cube solved. No matter what I do. I know to undo the setup moves, and turn slow, and memo correctly but no matter what I do, I still screw up every time somehow.

Sighted, the comms do what they are supposed to. The setup moves are easy, and I barely have to think about them. 

So what I'm asking is....

*....is this whole endeavor even worth it? Is 3-style even worth it? If I'm going to have such frustration over this, then is it even worth it? Because M2/OP is looking real nice right now.... *


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## dudefaceguy (Jul 6, 2020)

VIBE_ZT said:


> Alright so...
> 
> I have been learning 3x3 Blindfolded 3-style for about 4 months.
> 
> ...


Jake Klassen says no, it is not worth it.






Unless you are planning to be world class, or you really enjoy commutators (me), M2/OP is perfectly fine. The point is to have fun.

But I happen to think that 3 style is super fun, so to me yes it is worth it. You should be getting some successes at this point. Have you tried doing the same scramble over and over again until you succeed? I found that to be helpful in diagnosing errors.


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## VIBE_ZT (Jul 6, 2020)

dudefaceguy said:


> Jake Klassen says no, it is not worth it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I love comms! Everything about them is great! 

I would love to be good at blind, yeah. Not world-class but... Good.

...i have never tried that before, I'll admit. I didn't think of that. I think I'll do that.

...but honestly, now that I think about it, maybe M2/OP is going to be better for me. Being stressed out and frustrated by something like this is not worth it for me, especially considering I don't want to be world-class. I mean yeah, I could keep trying over and over again like I have been, but... I'm not sure if it would even be worth it for me anymore. Idk.


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## dudefaceguy (Jul 6, 2020)

VIBE_ZT said:


> I love comms! Everything about them is great!
> 
> I would love to be good at blind, yeah. Not world-class but... Good.
> 
> ...


3 style will still be here for you if you take a break. And comms will still be fun


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## BenChristman1 (Jul 6, 2020)

So I know 2BLD, and I'd say I have about a 70%-80% success rate. I think I have all of the setup moves for edges down for 3BLD, but the issue I'm having is just not being able to remember my whole memo. How should I do this?


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## Cuberstache (Jul 6, 2020)

BenChristman1 said:


> So I know 2BLD, and I'd say I have about a 70%-80% success rate. I think I have all of the setup moves for edges down for 3BLD, but the issue I'm having is just not being able to remember my whole memo. How should I do this?


Make words from pairs of letters, make those words into a story (as much as possible) and review, review, review


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## Prabal Baishya (Jul 12, 2020)

Hello guys! I have a question related to 3 blind memo, I have audio edges and one look them but the problem I face sometimes is that some of those pairs sound alike sometimes and I tend to mess them up during execution. I there something that I could do to prevent that?


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## Cuberstache (Jul 12, 2020)

Prabal Baishya said:


> Hello guys! I have a question related to 3 blind memo, I have audio edges and one look them but the problem I face sometimes is that some of those pairs sound alike sometimes and I tend to mess them up during execution. I there something that I could do to prevent that?


Find the ones that mess you up and change them to something else, even if it's completely arbitrary. As an example, AW and AU might make the same sound (short o) but you can use that sound for AW and make AU "gold" (which is what I do). In case you didn't know, AU is the chemical symbol for gold, so it makes sense as a stretch. Also, gold is only one syllable so it doesn't take any longer to say it in your head. Anyway, my advice is to find the letter pairs that are problems and find something to replace them.


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## Prabal Baishya (Jul 13, 2020)

CuberStache said:


> Find the ones that mess you up and change them to something else, even if it's completely arbitrary. As an example, AW and AU might make the same sound (short o) but you can use that sound for AW and make AU "gold" (which is what I do). In case you didn't know, AU is the chemical symbol for gold, so it makes sense as a stretch. Also, gold is only one syllable so it doesn't take any longer to say it in your head. Anyway, my advice is to find the letter pairs that are problems and find something to replace them.



Oh thanks! That "gold" Trick has some potential to improve my memo. Also is there some sort of list available, specifically regarding for audio letter pairs? I have a list myself which is very much flexible but I use that mainly for my corner memo.


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## Cuberstache (Jul 14, 2020)

Prabal Baishya said:


> Oh thanks! That "gold" Trick has some potential to improve my memo. Also is there some sort of list available, specifically regarding for audio letter pairs? I have a list myself which is very much flexible but I use that mainly for my corner memo.


I don't know of any audio-specific lists, but you can try regular letter pair docs. Max Hilliard's has almost all one-syllable words so that'll work well as a starting point at least. Other 3-style docs with letter pairs can work too.


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## Prabal Baishya (Jul 14, 2020)

CuberStache said:


> I don't know of any audio-specific lists, but you can try regular letter pair docs. Max Hilliard's has almost all one-syllable words so that'll work well as a starting point at least. Other 3-style docs with letter pairs can work too.


Thanks!


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## Micah Morrison (Jul 15, 2020)

I average around 2:00-2:20 on 3BLD. Do you guys think it's worth it for me to learn Eka/Orozco?


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## Prabal Baishya (Jul 15, 2020)

Micah Morrison said:


> I average around 2:00-2:20 on 3BLD. Do you guys think it's worth it for me to learn Eka/Orozco?



If you are serious about bld, then try learning 3-style. Both Orozco and 3-style uses comms but 3-style does it in a more efficient and is faster. I transitioned from m2/op to 3-style around the 2 min mark and recommend others too.


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## ProStar (Jul 15, 2020)

Micah Morrison said:


> I average around 2:00-2:20 on 3BLD. Do you guys think it's worth it for me to learn Eka/Orozco?



You can get sub-1 relatively easy with M2/OP. From what I've heard Orozco is a good compromise between 3-Style and not tons of algs, but I'd probably wait a little longer


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## Dylan Swarts (Jul 15, 2020)

I say go for it, learn Orozco or Eka if you want, and then use it to transition, or you can stay on it. I feel people don't like Orozco as a method itself, which I find odd, I quite like it.


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## Micah Morrison (Jul 15, 2020)

Dylan Swarts said:


> I say go for it, learn Orozco or Eka if you want, and then use it to transition, or you can stay on it. I feel people don't like Orozco as a method itself, which I find odd, I quite like it.


Yeah, it seems like there's a lot of RUD turning in Orozco, and I'm a big fan of RUD turning.


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## Micah Morrison (Jul 26, 2020)

I'm sure this question has been asked many times, but should I learn 3style edges or corners first? Which one is easier to learn/ will make a bigger difference in my times?


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## CyoobietheCuber (Jul 27, 2020)

I'm a noob at 3BLD, so take this with a grain of salt. I think 3-Style corners is easier to learn and it will make a greater times in your solves (since M2 is fairly fast already).


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## FluxDigital01 (Jul 27, 2020)

Are there any tutorials or resources for solving non NxNs, like megaminxes, blindfolded?


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## ProStar (Jul 27, 2020)

FluxDigital01 said:


> Are there any tutorials or resources for solving non NxNs, like megaminxes, blindfolded?



Enoch Gray has a bunch of BLD tutorials on his YT: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCJZt93WO-evfsfi7YlVmrQA


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## Cuberstache (Jul 28, 2020)

Micah Morrison said:


> I'm sure this question has been asked many times, but should I learn 3style edges or corners first? Which one is easier to learn/ will make a bigger difference in my times?


Yeah, corners is easier to learn because the algs are more similar. Edge comms have face interchanges, slice interchanges, and M' U2 M U2 type comms, so there's more going on. Also, assuming you use OP/M2, 3-style corners will make a bigger impact on your solves. Ultimately though, it doesn't matter since it's not like you have a comp coming up without enough time to learn both.


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## Spacey10 (Aug 27, 2020)

I average 35, should I learn blind? Sounds cool...
What is the best video for OP?


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## BenChristman1 (Aug 27, 2020)

Spacey10 said:


> I average 35, should I learn blind? Sounds cool...
> What is the best video for OP?


I would learn 2BLD first, just to learn the concepts of BLD.


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## Spacey10 (Aug 27, 2020)

BenChristman1 said:


> I would learn 2BLD first, just to learn the concepts of BLD.


Ok, don't have a 2x2, but I'll memo only the corners


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## FishyIshy (Sep 25, 2020)

Solving a cube blindfolded seems like a pretty difficult task, but from what I've heard, it's into that hard. I have tried multiple tutorials in the last day or two and just haven't gotten anywhere. I thought about just giving up on it, but I think I could do it. So, I am going to start getting serious about it. I doubt I'll see any fast improvement, but we'll just have to wait and see. If you guys have any tips that you could give me, I would GREATLY appreciate it. Please sub to my YouTube Channel and thanks for reading.

Happy Cubing,

Ishmael

My YouTube Channel
How I Look at a Solve and How You Should Too
PB sheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/..
Track my sessions here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/...

What are your thoughts on blind?


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## abunickabhi (Oct 23, 2020)

FishyIshy said:


> Solving a cube blindfolded seems like a pretty difficult task, but from what I've heard, it's into that hard. I have tried multiple tutorials in the last day or two and just haven't gotten anywhere. I thought about just giving up on it, but I think I could do it. So, I am going to start getting serious about it. I doubt I'll see any fast improvement, but we'll just have to wait and see. If you guys have any tips that you could give me, I would GREATLY appreciate it. Please sub to my YouTube Channel and thanks for reading.
> 
> Happy Cubing,
> 
> ...


Please do not self promote on this thread.

My thoughts on Blind is that it is a super interesting event, that requires a lot of preparation.


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## jdh3000 (Oct 23, 2020)

I learned from watching jperm's video, and from asking him some questions that helped me at least successfully do two solves, one I fortunately caught on video. 

I eventually gave up from frustration because of the amount of time it took to pick out all the pieces, write them down, create a mnemonic device, go extremely slow to avoid mistakes, only to open my eyes to a half solved(if that) cube. 
I'm certain the mistake wasn't in the solve, rather with missing a step in set up. Parity seldom seemed to be come up.

I would spend 10 minutes setting it up then nearly that long "solving"

I just focused back on my speedcubing and let it go. 

I may try again someday.


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## FishyIshy (Oct 23, 2020)

jdh3000 said:


> I learned from watching jperm's video, and from asking him some questions that helped me at least successfully do two solves, one I fortunately caught on video.
> 
> I eventually gave up from frustration because of the amount of time it took to pick out all the pieces, write them down, create a mnemonic device, go extremely slow to avoid mistakes, only to open my eyes to a half solved(if that) cube.
> I'm certain the mistake wasn't in the solve, rather with missing a step in set up. Parity seldom seemed to be come up.
> ...


I pretty much gave up


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## FishyIshy (Oct 23, 2020)

abunickabhi said:


> Please do not self promote on this thread.
> 
> My thoughts on Blind is that it is a super interesting event, that requires a lot of preparation.


Sorry. I originally had it on my own thread so it's technically not my fault. It got moved.


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## Nir1213 (Oct 23, 2020)

FishyIshy said:


> Sorry. I originally had it on my own thread so it's technically not my fault. It got moved.


you can ask the mods to move it back. They should have a reason why they did it.


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## KAINOS (Oct 29, 2020)

Is there an agreement on what is the best buffer for bigBLD centers? I know for 3BLD UFR/UF is considered optimal, so I want to use Ufr for x-center and either Uf or Ur for +-center to make it consistent with other piece types. Does anyone know if these buffers are good or bad?


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## abunickabhi (Oct 29, 2020)

KAINOS said:


> Is there an agreement on what is the best buffer for bigBLD centers? I know for 3BLD UFR/UF is considered optimal, so I want to use Ufr for x-center and either Uf or Ur for +-center to make it consistent with other piece types. Does anyone know if these buffers are good or bad?


For bigBLD it is more tougher to say which buffer is better. It is best if all of them near the UF spot so that we can gen nice comms which has fast, and also we can start tracing quickly when we pick up the puzzle. Personally I feel if you are using UF/UFR for 3x3 you can try switching to UFr, Uf,UF,UFR,Ufr for 5x5 blindfold event. Most of the comms are intuitively as the alg generator for 5x5s are super slow and not optimal yet (as of 2020).


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## Atomixcc (Nov 5, 2020)

Im hoping to learn to blindfold solve a 2x2.I would. Prefer something to download. Can anyone please suggest/link something?
Thanks


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## MJS Cubing (Nov 6, 2020)

Solving a 2x2 Rubik's Cube Blindfolded


Solving a 2x2 Rubik's Cube Blindfolded: Blindfold solving is an art form consisting of memory and finger dexterity. This tutorial will server as an introduction into the realm of blindfold solving by starting with the 2x2x2 cube. The ability to solve a 2x2 blindfolded is impor…




www.instructables.com






https://jperm.net/bld



Just do a little google search and there will be lots more resources.


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## GAN CUBER (Nov 6, 2020)

Video by @SpeedCubeReview


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## EliteCuber (Nov 10, 2020)

Sooooo.. I have finally decided to learn 3bld. Any tips from you guys would be great!


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## BenChristman1 (Nov 10, 2020)

Learn 2BLD first.


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## Deleted member 54663 (Nov 11, 2020)

I just learnt 3bld, and can do a solve with the method, but with my eyes open. If I write down the letters, I can solve all the edges blindfolded except maybe when the buffer turns solved and I can't remember where the other unsolved pieces are. What can I do for this?


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## Llewelys (Nov 11, 2020)

Put your fingers on the pieces as you get to them: unsolved pieces are the ones you aren't touching. As you get better and better, you won't need to do that anymore.


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## Deleted member 54663 (Nov 12, 2020)

I finally got edges done on 3bld, and can do them with 1 minute memo and about 1 minute execution. Any tips for corners? (OP/OP)


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## BenChristman1 (Nov 12, 2020)

JP cubing said:


> I finally got edges done on 3bld, and can do them with 1 minute memo and about 1 minute execution. Any tips for corners? (OP/OP)


What kind of tips? Memo or execution tips?


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## Deleted member 54663 (Nov 12, 2020)

BenChristman1 said:


> What kind of tips? Memo or execution tips?


both, if possible


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## BenChristman1 (Nov 12, 2020)

JP cubing said:


> both, if possible


Do you know all the buffers and stuff like that? If so, just do a few sighted just-corners solves, then try doing a 2x2 blindfolded, then move on to doing a whole 3x3.


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## Deleted member 54663 (Nov 12, 2020)

BenChristman1 said:


> Do you know all the buffers and stuff like that? If so, just do a few sighted just-corners solves, then try doing a 2x2 blindfolded, then move on to doing a whole 3x3.


I can solve it with my eyes open and I know the method quite well, but memo is messed up for me since whenever the buffer piece ends up in the buffer location, I have to chose another one, and I forget where the solved pieces are. I can do 2bld, but 3x3 edges blind is easier for me. Well I guess if I practice it will come to me.


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## DNF_Cuber (Nov 14, 2020)

I can do 3 style corners(intuitively) now, and plan to learn the edges soon. if I finish learning edges in a week, what is a realistic timeframe i could be sub one minute 3bld in?


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## EliteCuber (Nov 14, 2020)

im trying to learn 3bld can someone help?


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## DNF_Cuber (Nov 14, 2020)

learn old pochmann from jperm's tutorial. I learned 2bld first


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## DNF_Cuber (Nov 17, 2020)

How does parity work with 3 style? I learnt the corners and I am getting the buffer swapped w/ a different piece every time. Is there a way I can do it without a bunch of algs?


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## Skewbed (Nov 21, 2020)

DNF_Cuber said:


> How does parity work with 3 style? I learnt the corners and I am getting the buffer swapped w/ a different piece every time. Is there a way I can do it without a bunch of algs?


For 3 style parity, one way is to always add the same two targets to the end of corners and edges to make them even, and then use a parity alg at the end that works with the two you chose. This makes it so you only need to learn 1 alg, but the downside is you have to do another 3 cycle.

If you are doing 3 style, you should probably use a parity alg for each possible corner that was last in the memo, so about 20 easy algs. They are easy because most are common algs or setups to other algs.


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## Lol e7dux (Nov 25, 2020)

3x3 Blindfolded
When planning, how do ik if i am hitting the buffer position early or am done with all the edges. (My buffer is B) using old poachman. Basically how do ik if i need to start a new cycle or am done with all tje edges


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## Micah Morrison (Nov 25, 2020)

Lol e7dux said:


> 3x3 Blindfolded
> When planning, how do ik if i am hitting the buffer position early or am done with all the edges. (My buffer is B) using old poachman. Basically how do ik if i need to start a new cycle or am done with all tje edges


If the number of pieces (11 for 3x3 edges, 7 for corners, since you don't count the buffer) + # of new cycles - # of pieces solved - # of letters in your memo = 0

So for example if I had one solved edge at the beginning of the solve and memorized 8 letters, 11 - 1 - 8 = 2, so I would need to start a new cycle


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## ZB2op (Nov 25, 2020)

basically u just have to keep track of how which edges u haven't done yet


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## ProStar (Nov 25, 2020)

As a beginner, you can go over your memo and put your fingers on all the pieces you've memorized, and see if there's any unsolved pieces left. As you get better, it will become more natural and you'll just kinda know.


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## Cubing Forever (Nov 28, 2020)

2 Months ago, I picked up BLD and I did compete in weekly comps but somehow lost motivation when Jack Cai told on YT that he quit cubing.
I want to pick it up again but now, I average 3:xx (with a lot more fails than usual) down from near sub 2 with OP/OP (M2 is confusing lol). Any tips.


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## Dylan Swarts (Nov 28, 2020)

Learn M2. Find your DNF reasons and work towards fixing them.


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## Cubing Forever (Nov 28, 2020)

Dylan Swarts said:


> Learn M2. Find your DNF reasons and work towards fixing them.


I/S Confuse me


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## Dylan Swarts (Nov 28, 2020)

I'm going to assume that is speffz. I treated it as follows: When the first letter of the letterpair is FU/BD (your I/S) then you memo I/S. When it is the second letter in the letterpair, memo S/I. So you would then change the letter to the opposite one. During exec, you just exec whatever letters you get, no need to worry the weird things happening with the slices and those pieces. Same goes for UF and DB btw. Keep same for 1st, change if 2nd in pair.


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## Cubing Forever (Nov 28, 2020)

So, in simple words,
first in letter pair, keep the letter
else switch letters
right?

lol this looks like code
and yes I use speffz.


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## Delta Phi (Dec 12, 2020)

I'm trying to get into blind, I've been practicing with OP/OP, and I was wondering if it is reasonable to learn 3-style edges before learning 3-style corners. Most tutorials for 3-style suggest learning corners first, but I am pretty confident in my OP corners, while OP edges have been causing me some problems with execution, and instead of learning M2 I thought it would be better to just get right into 3-style. Is there a good reason I shouldn't do that?


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## Dylan Swarts (Dec 12, 2020)

You can definitely do that! It might be a bit of a hassle, and some assisting methods exist that you could use temporarily whilst making the move to 3 style edges. (Some consist of 3 style algs anyway so its nothing new really, just the concept.) This is also optional, you could directly make the move, perhaps taking an intuitive approach. Go ahead and good luck. Be sure to come chat in the _*#bld *_channel on the Speedsolving Discord if you would like. We have a couple of friendly people willing to help and give feedback/discuss the topic.


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## abunickabhi (Dec 22, 2020)

https://forum.artofmemory.com/t/limits-of-mbld-event/58113

What do you guys think is the limit for the MBLD event? Is it more than 75 points? Will double of Maskow ever be possible?


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## DNF_Cuber (Dec 22, 2020)

abunickabhi said:


> https://forum.artofmemory.com/t/limits-of-mbld-event/58113
> 
> What do you guys think is the limit for the MBLD event? Is it more than 75 points? Will double of Maskow ever be possible?


I think an 82 point MBLD is the highest possible.


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## abunickabhi (Jan 8, 2021)

DNF_Cuber said:


> I think an 82 point MBLD is the highest possible.


The 1 hour limit starts getting stressful for such high number of cubes. The person who is attempting 82 consistently mostly should be a full time MBLDer. 
So, unless MBLD event finds a lot of sponsors and the person pursuing it does not get a decent stipend, doing insane amounts of work to get to 80+ points is super tough. 

But again I may be wrong, and it is possible to do so, just purely out of passion.


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## dudefaceguy (Jan 8, 2021)

abunickabhi said:


> https://forum.artofmemory.com/t/limits-of-mbld-event/58113
> 
> What do you guys think is the limit for the MBLD event? Is it more than 75 points? Will double of Maskow ever be possible?


"I really think that if mbld had as many people dedicated to practicing it as say, marathon running does, the world record would probably be like 100ish cubes sub-hour by now. And that's not hyperbole." -Graham Siggins from here: https://www.speedsolving.com/threads/interview-with-graham-siggins.77427/

That's 36 seconds per cube - very fast but not technically impossible. Reviewing memo for accuracy is the problem. 60 cubes is 60 seconds per cube obviously, and top MBLDers review multiple times during their memo phase. Perhaps 36 seconds per cube is possible with a single review of all cubes. If you can execute and memo in 12 seconds each, that still leaves time for a full review. So, it seems possible to me.


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## abunickabhi (Jan 8, 2021)

dudefaceguy said:


> "I really think that if mbld had as many people dedicated to practicing it as say, marathon running does, the world record would probably be like 100ish cubes sub-hour by now. And that's not hyperbole." -Graham Siggins from here: https://www.speedsolving.com/threads/interview-with-graham-siggins.77427/
> 
> That's 36 seconds per cube - very fast but not technically impossible. Reviewing memo for accuracy is the problem. 60 cubes is 60 seconds per cube obviously, and top MBLDers review multiple times during their memo phase. Perhaps 36 seconds per cube is possible with a single review of all cubes. If you can execute and memo in 12 seconds each, that still leaves time for a full review. So, it seems possible to me.


Yes I agree, according to Graham's stats, currently 36 seconds/sec is possible for mini attempts up to 9 cubes.

The thing is, it gets exponentially tougher to maintain the review pace if the attempt is more than 10 minutes, and upto 1 hour, it is better to make attempt less stressful and do more reviews,

I do think 100 cubes is possible, but MBLD is still new to the world as compared to marathon. Lot of theory and techniques have been developed over 2k years. Also genetics do play a role in marathon as Kenya athletes dominate over others in the field. Till now MBLD is based on good 3-style technique and hard work.

If factors like genetics, and high order techniques like letter quads decide higher scores, it is just insane by current understanding. Someone has to build an incentive to practice MBLD with full focus. If a billionaire invests in a promising kid, the kid can make a career in MBLD. But the question is that without coaching improving is hard, especially if you hit a wall.

So, just for fun, I make a parallel situation scenario, where maybe in 2050 if WCA still exists, Graham or a top MBLDer will coach a promising kid. And also there will be lot of money put into the effort by the government or a private billionaire, and we have marathon class MBLDer by the end of the century.

But again, I can be wrong, pure motivation plays a role too, and if a person can cover his food needs and shelter for next 10 years without trying, and focus on MBLD, that focus can be achieved, U R E2 F U2 M' U M U F' E2 R' U'.


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## Rubuscu (Jan 21, 2021)

I have a huge problem in getting fast at blindfolded 3 by 3, and that's my memorization. My memorization takes about 3 times my execution time. What can I do to memorize faster and more effectively in the first time so that I don't have to review it before starting? (I use M2 for edges and Old Pochmann for Corners).


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## abunickabhi (Jan 21, 2021)

A Perm said:


> I have a huge problem in getting fast at blindfolded 3 by 3, and that's my memorization. My memorization takes about 3 times my execution time. What can I do to memorize faster and more effectively in the first time so that I don't have to review it before starting? (I use M2 for edges and Old Pochmann for Corners).


Getting good in memorisation is a different skill in itself. One way in which you can make your memo process more solid is to make an excel sheet of all the letter pairs that you use. In that way, there will be no uncertainty when you start tracing the cube in a real solve.

Second is to just try to go slow with memorisation and construct proper sentences with the letter pairs you get. The more practice of memo you do, the more fluent you get in this process. 

Lastly, if you get tired from a session of 3BLD, you can still practice making sentences from letter pairs using this tool, https://bestsiteever.ru/memotest/.

Happy memorising, E' r U S U' M F E' F' R' E!


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## TheSlykrCubr (Jan 22, 2021)

someone please give tips on improving my memo, since i feel i'm reviewing my memo too often (like after every letter)


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## dudefaceguy (Jan 22, 2021)

abunickabhi said:


> Getting good in memorisation is a different skill in itself. One way in which you can make your memo process more solid is to make an excel sheet of all the letter pairs that you use. In that way, there will be no uncertainty when you start tracing the cube in a real solve.
> 
> Second is to just try to go slow with memorisation and construct proper sentences with the letter pairs you get. The more practice of memo you do, the more fluent you get in this process.
> 
> ...


There's also an Android app called MemoGenerator that creates memo lettering. I sometimes use this for mental practice without a cube, such as when I'm in bed before falling asleep.


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## abunickabhi (Jan 22, 2021)

Yes memo generator is cool too. Roman recently made a memory android app himself for various memory events, https://bestsiteever.ru/memory/.


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## Rubuscu (Jan 23, 2021)

I do not use the Specffz Lettering Scheme for memorizing, since I think I am better at my own Memorization Scheme. Can this be the problem in my memorization?


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## abunickabhi (Jan 26, 2021)

A Perm said:


> I do not use the Specffz Lettering Scheme for memorizing, since I think I am better at my own Memorization Scheme. Can this be the problem in my memorization?


I dont think it will be a problem. It is not that one form of lettering scheme gives an advantage over the other.
My lettering scheme is not used by anyone in the world. I learnt from a 12 year old Youtube tutorial, the best way I can describe it is a mix between chinese way of lettering, and spiral lettering around the cube. 






TLDR, it is totally fine with having your own lettering scheme.


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## jronge94 (Mar 9, 2021)

Hey all

I just wanna say I'm really happy I've learnt full UF/UFR 3-style with UF-UR UFR-xyz parity. I'm finally getting used to my edge comms and am almost back to the speed I had with M2/3-style.
I'm just not 100% certain what the most efficient way to move forward is and am looking here for advice. I'm definitely going to learn full 2twist from UFR and full 2-flip from UF. Also doing lots of solves.
The problem lays in the fact that I still pause a lot because of certain comms. I wonder what the best way to drill would be?
Do like 2/3 sets (eg UF-UR-XY) a day or mark comms I have difficulties with and/or sometimes make exec mistakes on in my sheet and drill the like everyday before starting a session. (Don't know all comms but there quite a few I'm a dumdum with)
Or a combination of these 2 systems?


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## willian_pessoa (Mar 10, 2021)

Hello, I am on the same path as you, and one thing I’ve been doing and it’s working for me, it's during a 3BLD session or in the end of MBLD atempt I write all the comms that I had difficulty recalling or make mistake execution and after the practice i repass all it... like you mecioned.

I think that focus on the bad comms its more efficient instead drill one all set when have comms that you already feel confortable to execute.


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## abunickabhi (Mar 10, 2021)

The best way to drill comms is to do them 3 times in a row, and time them, and maintain those times in a sheet.

A combination of both the systems you mentioned will be ideal.

Happy drilling and BLDing!


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## jdh3000 (Mar 23, 2021)

I recently started BLD again. I use the old pochmann method. This was the algorithm that Jperm showed for parity, which is just an R perm:

R U' R' U' R U R D R' U' R D' R' U2 R' U'

I don't know why but I never liked that alg... below is the R perm I use in my normal pll. 

(U) R U2 R' U2 R B' R' U' R U R B R2

I I tried including a pic a showing in what position either alg will solve the case normally but it wouldn't upload. 
A normal case would be white on top, green in front, and the bar facing me(U layer face)

My question is, and forgive my ignorance, is shouldn't my R perm(the second one) work for parity by doing it this way?

I've attempted a few bld solves using it for parity and was left with a mess. Granted the mess could've been some other mistake, I would just like to make sure that given that the cube is in this position between edge and corner orientation, with green facing me, white on top, that this would work. 

Since I would have to perform a U move at the beginning of parity, would it be good as it is or should I do a U' after the alg? It seems like it should just fix the edges and corners as is, but I may be looking at it wrong. 

Thanks!


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## Cubing Forever (Mar 23, 2021)

there's a reason people use the RUD R perm for parity, and that is to avoid U moves before the alg as you can mess them up pretty easily. Plus, I don't think you should be using B moves for an R perm or any PLL(except for A perms, the BLDer A perms seem to be good) in general.


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## jdh3000 (Mar 23, 2021)

Cubing Forever said:


> there's a reason people use the RUD R perm for parity, and that is to avoid U moves before the alg as you can mess them up pretty easily. Plus, I don't think you should be using B moves for an R perm or any PLL(except for A perms, the BLDer A perms seem to be good) in general.


The B move in the R perm I use seem more like wide l U' instead of R B'.
I've used it so long that it flows well for me without thinking about it.

But doesn't the second alg essentially do the same thing as the first?

At any rate I figured it out. The R perm I normally use in pll works fine, it was my questioning if I was setting it up correctly with the U move to begin with get the edges and corners to flip the right way.

I tried it a few times with eyes opened just to be sure I wasn't messing up somewhere. 

Now I'll try it the next bld solve that involves parity. 

I apologize if I wasn't clear on what I was asking to begin with. 
Any R perm will work, the initial move was what was confusing me... when in doubt, test it.


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## jronge94 (Mar 29, 2021)

Is there a way to generate edge only scrambles that are 7-algers without any edge flips.
Currently practicing edge only scrambles to get used to 1-passing audio memo, it's going ok-ish if it's 6 algs or 5 or even 6 with an edge flip as I just do flips visual. But if my audio memo becomes 7 letter pairs I really struggle. So that's why I ask, to practice those cases. Also if anyone has any other advise on this please feel free to share.


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## jdh3000 (Mar 30, 2021)

Cubing Forever said:


> there's a reason people use the RUD R perm for parity, and that is to avoid U moves before the alg as you can mess them up pretty easily. Plus, I don't think you should be using B moves for an R perm or any PLL(except for A perms, the BLDer A perms seem to be good) in general.



I neglected to thank you for your response, I do appreciate it!

I believe you are correct about the algorithms. I've used the one I was talking about a a few times and although I managed to successfully solve it once, I believe it messed me up a few of the other times. 

I either need to work on one alg or the other, or just do the edge correction at the end. 

Thanks again!


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## thelargeman2048 (Mar 31, 2021)

I know about old pochman method to blind solve 2x2 but I've been looking for a better way. if anyone knows any other blind methods id love to hear them


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## Deleted member 55877 (Mar 31, 2021)

If you are going for speed, just use a normal speedsolving 2x2 method (like eg) and 1-look. Otherwise, old pochmann is fine.


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## DNF_Cuber (Mar 31, 2021)

thelargeman2048 said:


> I know about old pochman method to blind solve 2x2 but I've been looking for a better way. if anyone knows any other blind methods id love to hear them


you can use 3 style but one looking with EG is best


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## A_Damned_Soul (Apr 2, 2021)

Ok i feel like a noob. 
i learnt how to solve a cube in the last 2 months without learning the names of ALGS. its just all there in muscle memory.
now that im making the move to BLND and im trying the BOP method, i know i need to know how to J Perm and JB.

The method on this site lists how to do a JB but not a J Perm and every google search just sends me to the YouTube channel or website of JPERM

can someone please help and tell me what the ALG is for J perm


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## PetrusQuber (Apr 2, 2021)

Jb is j perm.
There are two j perms, which do mirrored things.


https://jperm.net/algs/pll


Scroll down to Ja and Jb (I think Jb is the one you need for blind starting out).


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## A_Damned_Soul (Apr 2, 2021)

thank you , i just confused me as in the BOP method it says JB for all but 1 ALG combo, the odd one says J-Perm so im guessing this will be JA from your explanation. 

Thank you so much, i have literally been sitting here going stir crazy lol


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## PetrusQuber (Apr 2, 2021)

A_Damned_Soul said:


> thank you , i just confused me as in the BOP method it says JB for all but 1 ALG combo, the odd one says J-Perm so im guessing this will be JA from your explanation.
> 
> Thank you so much, i have literally been sitting here going stir crazy lol


No problem 

The J perm is in a list of algs called PLL, which stands for permutation of last layer.
May I know what website/video you are using to learn blind by the way?
And how have learnt how to solve a cube normally?

A lot of cubing knowledge is all connected together depending on what method you use and how you learnt it.
I have to go for now so see you


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## A_Damned_Soul (Apr 2, 2021)

so i first learned Roux from the JPERM video 
(1) Rubik's Cube: Learn the Roux Method in 10 Minutes! - YouTube

i was directed the BOP on this site at this link 
BOP method - An OP variant for the Beginner's BLD method using UF/UFR. | SpeedSolving Puzzles Community 

i was told as ive never done BLND this new method may be a good way to learn as its slightly more advanced then beginners method but not too advanced to be impossible to learn . 

let me know what you think as im more then open to other suggestions on how to learn BLND


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## jdh3000 (Apr 3, 2021)

One frustrating thing is going through assigning pair names and ending up with an uneven number, which would mean I made a mistake. 
Even more so is going back and checking and still coming up with odd numbers. I know there's a mistake somewhere, but can't tell where. 

I'm to the point I'm not writing them down, and working on not having to place my fingers as much to keep up with pieces. But this happens even if I write them down and place fingers. 

I don't know anything else to do except keep looking.

If anyone else has had this problem but found something that helps, I'd really appreciate some advice.

Thanks!


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## willian_pessoa (Apr 4, 2021)

jdh3000 said:


> One frustrating thing is going through assigning pair names and ending up with an uneven number, which would mean I made a mistake.
> Even more so is going back and checking and still coming up with odd numbers. I know there's a mistake somewhere, but can't tell where.
> 
> I'm to the point I'm not writing them down, and working on not having to place my fingers as much to keep up with pieces. But this happens even if I write them down and place fingers.
> ...



If the tracing it's ok, the odd number mean a parity.


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## abunickabhi (Apr 4, 2021)

A_Damned_Soul said:


> so i first learned Roux from the JPERM video
> (1) Rubik's Cube: Learn the Roux Method in 10 Minutes! - YouTube
> 
> i was directed the BOP on this site at this link
> ...


BOP is a good method. The con of this method is that it is not tested, and its new.

The well tested beginners methods are M2/OP, and OP/OP.
Orozco and Eka also do not have that much testing among the beginners as it is relatively new.


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## jdh3000 (Apr 4, 2021)

willian_pessoa said:


> If the tracing it's ok, the odd number mean a parity.


What I was talking about is if sides are even and corners are odd(and vice versa), that means I made a mistake... they have to both be even or odd.

I just don't get why sometimes no matter how many times I recheck it, it comes out un even, because I know that and even number on both means no parity and odd means parity.


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## Habsen (Apr 4, 2021)

jdh3000 said:


> What I was talking about is if sides are even and corners are odd(and vice versa), that means I made a mistake... they have to both be even or odd.
> 
> I just don't get why sometimes no matter how many times I recheck it, it comes out un even, because I know that and even number on both means no parity and odd means parity.


Sighted solves can help a lot in identifying your tracing mistakes (other types of mistakes, too). Just solve two pieces and check if the cube looks as you expected. Once you reach the last one or two pieces, it should be much easier to find your mistake. Works for edges and corners.


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## jdh3000 (Apr 4, 2021)

Habsen said:


> Sighted solves can help a lot in identifying your tracing mistakes (other types of mistakes, too). Just solve two pieces and check if the cube looks as you expected. Once you reach the last one or two pieces, it should be much easier to find your mistake. Works for edges and corners.



Thank you! Yes, sometimes when I just can't figure out what I've done wrong I go ahead and solve it sighted and see where I was off, but still hard to tell why I'm missing it.

I think my problem arises when I have more than a few cycle breaks, I'm not accounting for something and like standing too close to something, I can't see it. 

It's like a blind spot because I've noticed if I go back and change the first piece I got to choose I wind up with all even or all odd. I know nothing has changed except my perspective.

Hopefully with more time I'll get to where the "blind spots" vanish.

Thanks again!


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## willian_pessoa (Apr 4, 2021)

jdh3000 said:


> What I was talking about is if sides are even and corners are odd(and vice versa), that means I made a mistake... they have to both be even or odd.
> 
> I just don't get why sometimes no matter how many times I recheck it, it comes out un even, because I know that and even number on both means no parity and odd means parity.



Ah ok, pay attention to the cycle breaks. When this happen to me, almost always cause it's cycle breaks.


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## jdh3000 (Apr 4, 2021)

willian_pessoa said:


> Ah ok, pay attention to the cycle breaks. When this happen to me, almost always cause it's cycle breaks.



Between the time I had responded I went back and looked at a scramble that had me scratching my head, so I set it aside, and sure enough there was on edge on a cycle break that was throwing me off.

Thanks!


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## BenChristman1 (Apr 18, 2021)

Does anybody have a few good resources to get letter pairs from?


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## jdh3000 (Apr 18, 2021)

BenChristman1 said:


> Does anybody have a few good resources to get letter pairs from?



I'd like to know as well. Some of the ones I've made up are atrocious.


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## Bebulua (Apr 18, 2021)

Response from you the last


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## fun at the joy (Apr 18, 2021)

BenChristman1 said:


> Does anybody have a few good resources to get letter pairs from?





jdh3000 said:


> I'd like to know as well. Some of the ones I've made up are atrocious.








CoLPI - collective letter-pair images database for BLD. In all languages.


A public collection of letter-pair images for blindfolded cubing, in all languages




bestsiteever.ru


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## Daikaigan (Apr 22, 2021)

I use Orozco/M2, with an average of 23sec Corners memo, 14sec Edges memo, and 40sec Execution. I've been thinking of switching to 3-style for corners but I feel like what's really hindering my time is how slow my memo is, since I've seen people being able to reach sub-1 with OP/M2 since their memo only takes around 20-30 seconds. My main problem is that for my Corners memo, I take around 10-15 seconds to list the words for the images, then I pause and spend another 10 seconds to come up with the image in my head. I've tried doing the images and the memo at the same time, but I end up not being able to remember what letter belongs to each sticker, ultimately making the overall memo slower. Any tips for me to improve on this?


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## Kit Clement (Apr 22, 2021)

If you memo edges second and execute them first, don't come up with images or even a sentence for them. Most use audio memorization, where you essentially try to "pronounce" each letter pair in your head. It's not a good long term memory technique, but since you do them right away, you don't need them to stick as long.


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## abunickabhi (Apr 22, 2021)

Daikaigan said:


> I use Orozco/M2, with an average of 23sec Corners memo, 14sec Edges memo, and 40sec Execution.


Since you are taking more time to memorise corners than edges, I am assuming you are doing CEEC, and using images for corners and audio for edges. If you have the same system for both (like in MBLD), the edge memo will be a bit longer as there are more targets in edges on average (11.xy vs 7.xy).



Daikaigan said:


> My main problem is that for my Corners memo, I take around 10-15 seconds to list the words for the images, then I pause and spend another 10 seconds to come up with the image in my head. I've tried doing the images and the memo at the same time, but I end up not being able to remember what letter belongs to each sticker, ultimately making the overall memo slower. Any tips for me to improve on this?


Best way to practice your lettering scheme is to disassemble the cube, and just point at a random sticker, and you should be unconsciously be able to remember the sticker. If not, try deliberate practice until you are comfortable with this process.

Also, a good way to make corner memo faster, is to join two images, and also make a sentence out of it. You do not need a PAO (Person action object) system of letter pairs necessarily for sentence making. With a bit of practice, you can translate letter pairs to sentence.

When I am not tracing on the cube, I like to practice and get faster with this using the amazing tool created by Roman, https://bestsiteever.ru/memotest/

Happy Memorising!


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## CFOP INC (May 3, 2021)

I have been wanting to learn 3x3 blindfolded for a long time now, I have tried many times but I just can't seem to understand it if anyone can help me out that would be much appreciated.


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## Tabe (May 3, 2021)

I suggest learning Old Pochmann method. It's two algorithms plus a possible third - and you already know the algs. So that just leaves learning the memorization. I won't try to explain it in a post but you're basically memorizing a series of piece swaps that will result in a solved cube. You do that by memorizing the letters of the places that need to be swapped.

I found Speedcubereview's tutorial to be the best of the ones I tried.


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## ProStar (May 3, 2021)

Tabe said:


> I suggest learning Old Pochmann method. It's two algorithms plus a possible third - and you already know the algs. So that just leaves learning the memorization. I won't try to explain it in a post but you're basically memorizing a series of piece swaps that will result in a solved cube. You do that by memorizing the letters of the places that need to be swapped.
> 
> I found Speedcubereview's tutorial to be the best of the ones I tried.



This is a good tutorial. I used J Perm's v2 BLD tutorial, so you may want to try that as well:






J Perm has a v3, which is newer, but I personally found the v2 most helpful


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## CFOP INC (May 4, 2021)

Thank you all.


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## abunickabhi (May 15, 2021)

Any good tutorials to learn how to solve jinx pyraminx blindfolded?


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## seungju choi (May 30, 2021)

Hi I average 33 with full 3style and I use this letter scheme like the photo under the text
Most top-class BLDers use their absolute orientation like Blue for the up and Red for the front
I don't have it yet. Should I make my own? And is it essential?


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## Cubing Forever (May 30, 2021)

seungju choi said:


> Hi I average 33 with full 3style and I use this letter scheme like the photo under the text
> Most top-class BLDers use their absolute memo face(?) (I don't know what I call this) like Blue for the up and Red for the front
> I don't have it yet. Should I make my own? And is it essential?View attachment 15872


It's called orientation and I don't think it's essential to change it if you're ok with your current one I guess.

(I haven't done BLD in ages and used to average 2:00 so take this with a pinch of salt lol)


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## ProyectoSigma (May 31, 2021)

Hello, I was thinking in a form to begin in how to memorize the pairs of PAO, My idea is:

All the words where there's the letter "B", and with a system doing like that:

B (Memorize word) - (Person)
(Memorize word) B - (Action)
B (Memorize word) - (Object)
(Memorize word) B - (Person)
B (Memorize word) - (Action)
(Memorize word) B - (Object)

And repeating this system, like the Orozco Method, but in this case, one word for one letter, including "B", with this system you'll be able to rebember 120 words (to 1680, so that's the 7.14%)

Example: AF-D

BArbie is ForBiding to a BeD
And in the other PAO the same, but chancing the rule of words, What do you think guys?


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## Prabal Baishya (Jun 17, 2021)

Hello. I recently switched to the UF/UFR buffer and was wondering on how to deal with parity with these buffers.


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## abunickabhi (Jun 17, 2021)

Prabal Baishya said:


> Hello. I recently switched to the UF/UFR buffer and was wondering on how to deal with parity with these buffers.


The parity is mostly a Jperm. You setup a UF-UR swap and UFR-UBR swap, which is just a Jb perm. It is very fast to execute.

Obviously, at my level, there are about 100+ parity algs to be learnt, as we do the last target (last corner piece)+ UF-UR swap, in just one alg, which saves upto one second.


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## abunickabhi (Jun 17, 2021)

ProyectoSigma said:


> Hello, I was thinking in a form to begin in how to memorize the pairs of PAO, My idea is:
> 
> All the words where there's the letter "B", and with a system doing like that:
> 
> ...


I have not fully understood your memo system. Can you explain it taking a 3x3 scramble as an example?


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## jdh3000 (Jun 17, 2021)

ProyectoSigma said:


> Hello, I was thinking in a form to begin in how to memorize the pairs of PAO, My idea is:
> 
> All the words where there's the letter "B", and with a system doing like that:
> 
> ...



Nothing really helps Q an X in my opinion. 

Your idea is intriguing...


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## Prabal Baishya (Jun 18, 2021)

abunickabhi said:


> The parity is mostly a Jperm. You setup a UF-UR swap and UFR-UBR swap, which is just a Jb perm. It is very fast to execute.
> 
> Obviously, at my level, there are about 100+ parity algs to be learnt, as we do the last target (last corner piece)+ UF-UR swap, in just one alg, which saves upto one second.


Thanks. I don't intend to learn 100s of parity algs now as I still have 50% of the edge and 20% of the corner comms to be done. But can I still get the list somewhere


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## Habsen (Jun 18, 2021)

Prabal Baishya said:


> Hello. I recently switched to the UF/UFR buffer and was wondering on how to deal with parity with these buffers.


Dealing with parity is quite easy with UF/UFR buffers. You don't need more than the 21 corner parity algs.
For CEEC order: You know that you have parity before memorizing edges. So solve UF and UR swapped.
For ECEC order: Just append UR to your edge memo when you realize that you have parity, i.e. an odd number of edge targets. It will automatically swap UF and UR. Or, even better, use weak swap. That means solve UF or UR to the UR position, whichever comes first. Treat the other one as your buffer piece from this moment. Graham Siggins has a good youtube video on the topic.


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## Prabal Baishya (Jun 18, 2021)

Habsen said:


> Dealing with parity is quite easy with UF/UFR buffers. You don't need more than the 21 corner parity algs.
> For CEEC order: You know that you have parity before memorizing edges. So solve UF and UR swapped.
> For ECEC order: Just append UR to your edge memo when you realize that you have parity, i.e. an odd number of edge targets. It will automatically swap UF and UR. Or, even better, use weak swap. That means solve UF or UR to the UR position, whichever comes first. Treat the other one as your buffer piece from this moment. Graham Siggins has a good youtube video on the topic.


I have the ceec order. I actually thought that we needed to swap UB and UL but soon I realised that the parity algs didn't make sense then. So I was a bit confused about which two pieces to swap. But now I am fine.
Also do people use full parity? I think there is a total of 462 parity cases for every odd edge+corner target combination. It's almost like full ZBLL.


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## Waffles (Jun 20, 2021)

I use SH for X and Y for Q. I often have trouble with J/V in my memo but I doubt that there is a better alternative. If your guys could offer me some tips (I average 2 minutes with memo and use M2/OP) for memo I would appreciate that


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## Sub1Hour (Jun 20, 2021)

Waffles said:


> I use SH for X and Y for Q. I often have trouble with J/V in my memo but I doubt that there is a better alternative. If your guys could offer me some tips (I average 2 minutes with memo and use M2/OP) for memo I would appreciate that


I've never gotten a successful blind solve before so take what I say with a large grain of salt.

For J or V you could possibly use CH or TH. Also, do you use images or sounds for edges? If you think your up to it using sounds for edges is a little faster than using images.


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## Waffles (Jun 20, 2021)

For edges I say, for example, Shape (SH,P) and then Dog (D,G) and so on. I do the same thing for corners but forget the word and put an image in my head on the stairs at my grandparents house. The first one goes at the top. I don’t know if this is the best way to approach this, and I would appreciate an answer. I memo corners first.


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## Dylan Swarts (Jun 20, 2021)

Initially starting out with that approach is fine, but moving away from memorizing 3bld memo in loci are a good idea. What you should generally be aiming for is to memorize corners as 1 separate image (in no location, just randomly) and audio all of your edges. At first this might not be worth doing, especially at your speed of memo. It's much easier for someone to remember their audio memo for 10 seconds than it is to remember it upwards of a minute or so.
Personally not sure how you should move away from it right now without immediately going into audio. I would say have a go at audio memo on edges and see if you could do it. It's not absolutely necessary to use audio, using the loci as you are now could work until like 30s memo or better, but it's the more common technique at a high level because of how much faster it is than making and placing images across a room. You'll also want to solve the piece type that you memorize last, first, so that it can be shorter term than the rest. In your case, memo corners, memo edges, solve edges, solve corners.


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## GooseCuber (Oct 4, 2021)

I've started learning 3*3 blindfolded, but every single time I get the problem of my corners having moved after I have inserted the edges. Even while looking after I inserted the last edge I see the corner buffer (and about 2 more) have changed(Parody and non-parody cases.) I use the old pochman method.


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## PetrusQuber (Oct 4, 2021)

GooseCuber said:


> I've started learning 3*3 blindfolded, but every single time I get the problem of my corners having moved after I have inserted the edges. Even while looking after I inserted the last edge I see the corner buffer (and about 2 more) have changed(Parody and non-parody cases.) I use the old pochman method.


It’s been a long time since I’ve done blindfolded, so try https://www.speedsolving.com/threads/one-answer-blindsolving-question-thread.27353/page-294 or wait for the experts to come in lol.
Maybe try an example solve with your memorisation as well, and they can see what’s going on
tag ne if you want there


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## Habsen (Oct 4, 2021)

GooseCuber said:


> I've started learning 3*3 blindfolded, but every single time I get the problem of my corners having moved after I have inserted the edges. Even while looking after I inserted the last edge I see the corner buffer (and about 2 more) have changed(Parody and non-parody cases.) I use the old pochman method.


Execute your edge algorithms on a solved cube just for practice. This way, you can observe what's going wrong more easily.


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## GooseCuber (Oct 5, 2021)

I always post these kinda stuff and get it right just after. Did my first fully blind yesterday but thanks for all the help anyway.


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## GooseCuber (Oct 5, 2021)

Haven't managed again though. Working hard.


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## Dylan Swarts (Oct 5, 2021)

GooseCuber said:


> I always post these kinda stuff and get it right just after. Did my first fully blind yesterday but thanks for all the help anyway.



Ayy hello there fellow South African. Good to see some more people interested in blind.


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## GooseCuber (Oct 6, 2021)

Managed another solve yesterday of 7:42 but got stuck again.


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## GooseCuber (Oct 13, 2021)

I have been doing a lot of OP/OP solves lately but either me or the method is very bad (probably me) so I want to know if learning a new method, such as M2/OP might make a difference. Or should I go the extra mile and learn Oroczo? I can do 2*2 quite efficiently, but am only like 10% effective with 3*3.


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## Eli Apperson (Oct 13, 2021)

I would learn M2/OP


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## kubesolver (Oct 13, 2021)

M2 for edges is a low hanging fruit. 
Conceptually is as easy as OP
but exec is much faster which helps with success rate because you don't have to keep memo in your head for so long.


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## ProStar (Oct 13, 2021)

I use M2/OP, and imo it was definitely worth learning. It's an easy step but much faster


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## GooseCuber (Oct 14, 2021)

Ok thanks to you all.


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## theos (Oct 14, 2021)

I really struggled with 3BLD when I was doing OP/OP with very few successes. It didn't take me long after learning OP/M2 until my success rate was a lot higher than it had ever been with OP/OP. For a beginner BLD solver, I'd honestly recommend skipping over OP/OP entirely.


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## GooseCuber (Oct 14, 2021)

Just started learning M2/OP now, thanks.


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## abunickabhi (Oct 15, 2021)

GooseCuber said:


> I have been doing a lot of OP/OP solves lately but either me or the method is very bad (probably me) so I want to know if learning a new method, such as M2/OP might make a difference. Or should I go the extra mile and learn Oroczo? I can do 2*2 quite efficiently, but am only like 10% effective with 3*3.


It depends. 

If I were a beginner in 2021, I would choose the path of learning BOP method instead of OP/OP, which would have made the transition to Orozco, 3-style and later 5-style much easier.


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## Greycube (Oct 15, 2021)

abunickabhi said:


> I would choose the path of learning BOP method instead of OP/OP,


What is the BOP method?


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## abunickabhi (Oct 16, 2021)

Greycube said:


> What is the BOP method?











BOP method - An OP variant for the Beginner's BLD method using UF/UFR.


Speedsolving BBcodes are hard. Put into a Google Document. Brant's Old Pochmann variant. Let me know what you think. Thanks to for helping with: Looking at this before I posted it. - Duncan Hobbs (twitch.tv/rooistegevaar) Critique after posting and finding a few errors - Guido Dipietro...




www.speedsolving.com





Details about the BOP method. Its cool and you would not have to switch buffers if you move onto advanced methods, if you start with BOP.
BOP stands for Brand Old Pochmann.


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## Greycube (Oct 16, 2021)

abunickabhi said:


> BOP method - An OP variant for the Beginner's BLD method using UF/UFR.
> 
> 
> Speedsolving BBcodes are hard. Put into a Google Document. Brant's Old Pochmann variant. Let me know what you think. Thanks to for helping with: Looking at this before I posted it. - Duncan Hobbs (twitch.tv/rooistegevaar) Critique after posting and finding a few errors - Guido Dipietro...
> ...


I had look through it. His Google Docs tutorial is really well done. I will stick to M2/OP though, as S2 moves in edges and B moves in corners gives me the shudders.


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## abunickabhi (Oct 16, 2021)

Greycube said:


> I had look through it. His Google Docs tutorial is really well done. I will stick to M2/OP though, as S2 moves in edges and B moves in corners gives me the shudders.


Yes S2 moves and B moves aren't really the most fingertrick friendly.


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## oneshot (Nov 1, 2021)

Can you learn/apply 3style corners on a 2x2? I’m not sure if that’s a dumb question


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## Habsen (Nov 1, 2021)

oneshot said:


> Can you learn/apply 3style corners on a 2x2? I’m not sure if that’s a dumb question


Yes you can, but the execution is very ineffective. Most of them are RUD-gen which requires many regrips per alg. So, I would not recommend using them on a 2x2.


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## cubing 4 ever (Nov 14, 2021)

I am trying to learn blindfold cubing and so far I have yet to learn zz and roux is you see this please help me:0


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## hellocubers (Nov 15, 2021)

if 3x3, https://www.speedsolving.com/thread...ann-super-simple-tutorial.78149/#post-1385157


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## EngiNerdBrian (Nov 21, 2021)

How do you analyze a failed 3BLD attempt? Sometimes I just don’t understand where I went wrong. How can you tell of the error was in memo or execution? Tips/tutorials/references appreciated.


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## Habsen (Nov 21, 2021)

EngiNerdBrian said:


> How do you analyze a failed 3BLD attempt? Sometimes I just don’t understand where I went wrong. How can you tell of the error was in memo or execution? Tips/tutorials/references appreciated.


A couple of people recommend filming your solves to be able to find out what went wrong. I personally always do the same scramble again sighted. This is sufficient most of the time.


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## Hazel (Dec 16, 2021)

I've been using M2/OP for years, and I've been getting back into 3BLD, but OP corners are just so slow. I really don't have the energy or desire to try to wrap my head around commutators, so is there some in-between I can check out to get faster at corners that's compatible with M2?
If it matters, I use DF as my buffer for M2, and ULB as my OP buffer.

EDIT: I recall the D2 method being a thing, is it worth all of the weird setups it has?


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## Garf (Dec 16, 2021)

Hazel said:


> I've been using M2/OP for years, and I've been getting back into 3BLD, but OP corners are just so slow. I really don't have the energy or desire to try to wrap my head around commutators, so is there some in-between I can check out to get faster at corners that's compatible with M2?
> If it matters, I use DF as my buffer for M2, and ULB as my OP buffer.
> 
> EDIT: I recall the D2 method being a thing, is it worth all of the weird setups it has?


Orozco corners. I am not sure how to deal with parity situations. It solves one piece at a time like Old Pochman, but it uses commutator-like patterns to solve sets of letter pairs, UFR being the buffer and UBR being the helper. I know that the first letter in a pair likes the helper, and the second letter in a pair likes the buffer. Sometimes you have to make weird set-ups, but otherwise it is a great intro for 3-style.


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## Habsen (Dec 16, 2021)

Hazel said:


> I've been using M2/OP for years, and I've been getting back into 3BLD, but OP corners are just so slow. I really don't have the energy or desire to try to wrap my head around commutators, so is there some in-between I can check out to get faster at corners that's compatible with M2?
> If it matters, I use DF as my buffer for M2, and ULB as my OP buffer.
> 
> EDIT: I recall the D2 method being a thing, is it worth all of the weird setups it has?


The OP algs for the UFR buffer are a bit faster. They are mostly J perms with a lot of cancellations in the setups. They are also quite easy to learn. It shouldn't take you more than three hours. From there, I would recommend learning at least some commutators. Especially the UFR-UBR-x set has really nice algs, i.e. lots of 8 or 9 movers. You can use this for Orozco or with OP whenever the UBR target comes up. For OP UBR will be your preferred target for every cycle break, which makes it occur more often.


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## Hazel (Dec 16, 2021)

I actually tried learning 3-style corners yesterday and it just started clicking today. I can find commutators pretty reliably, I'm just slow and mess up sometimes and I'm not nearly good enough at them yet to be able to do it eyes-closed.
EDIT: Ok yeah I definitely got this, and it's really fun! I just need to practice more


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## GenTheThief (Dec 18, 2021)

I became really familiar with commutators when I switched from U2 to 3style for big cube centers. They're much easier to make up on the fly than comms for other piece types.
Daniel shepard has an old video on them that I found super helpful.


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## Hazel (Dec 18, 2021)

I'm quite decent at figuring out corner comms on the fly now, the only problem I have is remembering which setup moves I did so I can undo them after the commutator :/


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## Eli Apperson (Dec 19, 2021)

I have a competition coming up in 5 weeks, and I would like to get somewhat decent at 3 Bld. Does any one have any m2/op tutorial recommendations, or tips in general?


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## willian_pessoa (Dec 26, 2021)

Hazel said:


> I actually tried learning 3-style corners yesterday and it just started clicking today. I can find commutators pretty reliably, I'm just slow and mess up sometimes and I'm not nearly good enough at them yet to be able to do it eyes-closed.
> EDIT: Ok yeah I definitely got this, and it's really fun! I just need to practice more


yeah, it's a long journey, just enjoy


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## abunickabhi (Jan 11, 2022)

Any good written tutorial on the BOP beginner's blindfolded method? I want to introduce it to my friend and can only find the alg sheet listing out the setup moves.


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## Garf (Jan 17, 2022)

abunickabhi said:


> Any good written tutorial on the BOP beginner's blindfolded method? I want to introduce it to my friend and can only find the alg sheet listing out the setup moves.


J-perm has good OP tutorials. His card scenario from the first video is really good to show beginners how a buffer works and how swaps works, but I learned from his latest OP tutorial.


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## Eli Apperson (Jan 18, 2022)

TheEpicCuber said:


> J-perm has good OP tutorials. His card scenario from the first video is really good to show beginners how a buffer works and how swaps works, but I learned from his latest OP tutorial.


OP and BOP are different


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## Garf (Jan 18, 2022)

CubableYT said:


> OP and BOP are different


Oh. Well, I am guessing BOP means Beginner's old pochman, because that is what it sounds like to me.
anyway, for orozco, let's say that Q is one of my memorized piece. Since it is part of the helper, do I ignore it and move onto another piece, or is there a way to solve Q?


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## abunickabhi (Jan 18, 2022)

TheEpicCuber said:


> Oh. Well, I am guessing BOP means Beginner's old pochman, because that is what it sounds like to me.
> anyway, for orozco, let's say that Q is one of my memorized piece. Since it is part of the helper, do I ignore it and move onto another piece, or is there a way to solve Q?


Not you got it wrong. BOP stands for Brant's Old Pochmann. It uses UF-UFR buffers and Jb perm as the pochmann alg to swap 2e2c.


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## Garf (Jan 18, 2022)

abunickabhi said:


> Not you got it wrong. BOP stands for Brant's Old Pochmann. It uses UF-UFR buffers and Jb perm as the pochmann alg to swap 2e2c.


Oh. Well, I have no idea about that old pochman method. I just know UR-UBL for the T-Perm/Y-perm variant alg


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## abunickabhi (Jan 18, 2022)

TheEpicCuber said:


> Oh. Well, I have no idea about that old pochman method. I just know UR-UBL for the T-Perm/Y-perm variant alg


Yeah that has been popular for the last decade. The problem with old pochmann is that it is hard to switch to orozco and 3-style as the buffers get changed from DF/UBL to UF/UFR which can be too much. To make this transition easier it is better to pick UF/UFR buffers for modified old pochmann.


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## Garf (Jan 18, 2022)

abunickabhi said:


> Yeah that has been popular for the last decade. The problem with old pochmann is that it is hard to switch to orozco and 3-style as the buffers get changed from DF/UBL to UF/UFR which can be too much. To make this transition easier it is better to pick UF/UFR buffers for modified old pochmann.


Okay, that makes more sense. I thought I saw cubeleo make some videos about BOP


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## abunickabhi (Jan 18, 2022)

TheEpicCuber said:


> Okay, that makes more sense. I thought I saw cubeleo make some videos about BOP


Yeah that's me inside the Cubelelo videos.


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## Garf (Jan 18, 2022)

abunickabhi said:


> Yeah that's me inside the Cubelelo videos.


Huh. Well, why did I even suggest videos that you were inside of, then?
I don't think there are great tutorials out there. I tried looking, but nothing seems to pop up.


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## jdh3000 (Jan 28, 2022)

I do blindfold solves using the old pochmann method. 

If the buffer piece is in the buffer slot at the beginning, I never seem to be able to solve it. On either edges or corners. 

I am either making a mistake every time or missing a step. 

Is there anything different that should be done when the piece that goes in the buffer location is sitting there at the start?

What I am currently doing is picking a random piece at the beginning to start, just like I would if I were in the middle of a solve and ran into a buffer piece. 

Is this correct? 

Thank you!


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## Garf (Jan 28, 2022)

jdh3000 said:


> I do blindfold solves using the old pochmann method.
> 
> If the buffer piece is in the buffer slot at the beginning, I never seem to be able to solve it. On either edges or corners.
> 
> ...


Yes. This is correct. When you start a new cycle, you always go back to the piece that you memorize, but unless you memorize that original slot and solve it, the cube will never be solved.
I suggest just going through and count where pieces need to go. Start at the buffer and go through the cycles until you reach the buffer piece or all of the pieces are solved. Then continue from there until all pieces are traced where they need to go.


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## PotatoIsGreat (Feb 7, 2022)

hello guys, so i started trying to do 3BLD but i had hard time trying to memo all the letters , i tried writing them on a paper it worked but when i tried memorizing them in my mind 
it was so hard to keep up with 5 letters , is there like a video/website that can help me with this or something?


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## GioccioCuber (Feb 7, 2022)

PotatoIsGreat said:


> hello guys, so i started trying to do 3BLD but i had hard time trying to memo all the letters , i tried writing them on a paper it worked but when i tried memorizing them in my mind
> it was so hard to keep up with 5 letters , is there like a video/website that can help me with this or something?


Do you use letter pair images to memo?


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## PotatoIsGreat (Feb 7, 2022)

GioccioCuber said:


> Do you use letter pair images to memo?


yes i do


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## GioccioCuber (Feb 8, 2022)

PotatoIsGreat said:


> yes i do


Have you tried making a story out of it? It worked for me when i was a beginner


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## oneshot (Feb 8, 2022)

Is there a maximum number of targets to be solved in 3BLD? I’m trying to figure out how to setup my journey for multi blind and am trying to figure out how big my memory palaces need to be. Thanks


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## oneshot (Feb 8, 2022)

Also, where does everyone buy their blindfolds nowadays? Thanks


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## GioccioCuber (Feb 8, 2022)

oneshot said:


> Is there a maximum number of targets to be solved in 3BLD? I’m trying to figure out how to setup my journey for multi blind and am trying to figure out how big my memory palaces need to be. Thanks


I am pretty sure the maximum number is 26 targets (13 letter pairs) without floating buffers.
The good multiblinders usually have 1 locus for corners and 1/2 loci for edges, but some people say that you should have only 2 letter pairs per locus, so you would need in the worst possible scenario 3 loci for corners and 4 for edges.


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## abunickabhi (Feb 8, 2022)

oneshot said:


> Also, where does everyone buy their blindfolds nowadays? Thanks


I buy my blindfolds from cubelelo.com, they are good for doing noddon. Nod up is a bit difficult using it though.

To answer your previous question, maximum we can have 10 3-cycle comms in edges, if all of them are 2-swaps and we don't know any 2e2e algs.

So, for say 22 targets, I will use 5 letter quads and one letter pair. So I can fit these 6 objects in one locus. My construct is such that I have 4 loci per room and 200+ rooms.


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## PotatoIsGreat (Feb 8, 2022)

GioccioCuber said:


> Have you tried making a story out of it? It worked for me when i was a beginner


yea kinda


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## Dat Tran Ebank (Feb 12, 2022)

Hello everyone, I'm Dat, I have trouble learning Orozcro method about corners.
Could someone give me some example solve corners with Orozco method, please? Thank all.

Also, I have two scramble, one is U' F2 D2 U L2 D F2 R2 B2 F2 R2 F R D L U2 B2 F R' D2 B'
and two is U F D R' B U' L U2 L' F2 U' B2 D L2 D' F2 R2 U2 L2 U2 L2
And I need your help to solve corners with Orozco method.


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## abunickabhi (Feb 15, 2022)

Have you referred to any video tutorials or written document/threads for Orozco corners?

For example: https://www.speedsolving.com/threads/how-the-orozco-bld-method-works.60487/


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## Dat Tran Ebank (Feb 15, 2022)

abunickabhi said:


> Have you referred to any video tutorials or written document/threads for Orozco corners?
> 
> For example: https://www.speedsolving.com/threads/how-the-orozco-bld-method-works.60487/


Thank you, I have already read that topic but I don't understand solution theory. And after a few days of studying solution theory, I more understand about Orozco.
Here my solution with first scramble U' F2 D2 U L2 D F2 R2 B2 F2 R2 F R D L U2 B2 F R' D2 B', I just solve corner with Orozco, the edges I use M2:
Corners:
=> Begin cycle
1. (odd) (UBR): U (x' R2 D2 R' U' R D2 R' U R' x) U'
=> End cycle
=> UFR (buffer) and UBR (helper) have a correct place, but UBR wrong state,
=> I will flip UBR and UFR with (R U2 R' U' R U' R') (L' U2 L U L' U L)
=> UFR (buffer) wrong state and UBR (helper) correct state
=> Because UFR and UBR have a correct place, I use UFL to start another cycle.

=> Begin cycle
2. (odd) UFL: (x' R2 D2 R' U' R D2 (R' U R')
3. (even) DBR: R2 (x' R U' R D2 R' U R D2 R2 x) R2
4. (odd) LUF: (R B R’) F (R B’ R’) F’
=> End cycle

=> Begin cycle
5. (odd) DFR: (x' R U R' D2 R U' R' D2 x)
6. (even) FDR: D' L' (R2 D’ R U’ R’ D R U R) L D
7. (odd) DFR: (x' R U R' D2 R U' R' D2 x)
=> End cycle
=> Done corners
My solution so wrody but suitable for beginner.


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## abunickabhi (Mar 6, 2022)

What is the best way to destress after a MBLD attempt?
I have not found a perfect routine yet. Generally I am quite tired after the attempt and do not feel good.


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## Existential Shrimp (Mar 28, 2022)

Hi. I've been recently trying to get back into 3BLD, and there's something I don't quite remember. (BTW, I use OP/OP) If I am tracing edges and get to my buffer piece (red/white), and I see that it will be flipped in place, how do I know which other edge will be flipped? I know that there can never be just one edge flipped, I just don't remember how to find the other one. After I know that I've done all my edges, and that there is just my flipped buffer and one other flipped edge, I don't really know what to do.


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## Garf (Mar 28, 2022)

KFCubes said:


> Hi. I've been recently trying to get back into 3BLD, and there's something I don't quite remember. (BTW, I use OP/OP) If I am tracing edges and get to my buffer piece (red/white), and I see that it will be flipped in place, how do I know which other edge will be flipped? I know that there can never be just one edge flipped, I just don't remember how to find the other one. After I know that I've done all my edges, and that there is just my flipped buffer and one other flipped edge, I don't really know what to do.


Memorize one part of the flipped edge, then memorize the other part. When you flip the edge this way, it also flips the buffer. EX: AQ, CI, DE, ED, etc. What part of the edge you choose does not matter, as long as it keeps the memo smooth.


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## AbsoRuud (Mar 28, 2022)

KFCubes said:


> Hi. I've been recently trying to get back into 3BLD, and there's something I don't quite remember. (BTW, I use OP/OP) If I am tracing edges and get to my buffer piece (red/white), and I see that it will be flipped in place, how do I know which other edge will be flipped? I know that there can never be just one edge flipped, I just don't remember how to find the other one. After I know that I've done all my edges, and that there is just my flipped buffer and one other flipped edge, I don't really know what to do.


Since you start your memo with the buffer piece, you'll notice immediately that it's flipped in place. Just start your memo with another piece, I usually start with the A sticker (UB). Just check every other edge and see which one is also flipped in place and then do what theepiccuber said, memo the flip as 2 letters. You'll also find which edge it is at the end of your memo, because it'll be the only edge you haven't traced yet.


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## Theoruff (Mar 30, 2022)

I want to start 3BLD, and I watched some tutorials on the poachman method, and then I watched one on m2 for the edges. Would it be ok if I start with M2 and use regular poachman for the corners?


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## jdh3000 (Mar 31, 2022)

Still having trouble with R perm BLD parity?

Pardon the long, drawn-out explanation.

I'm still having trouble using an R perm for parity.

The R perm I normally like in the attached picture, only the second part. I of course never do a y2, I just U turn to get it opposite of the pictire, then perform the 2nd alg(basically backwards)

Now I've been trying to incorporate this R perm as my bld parity alg for the old pochmann method I'm using.

I solve corners then edges. I've been doing it this way because I have a good memo for edges that will keep, and I can so a sound memo for corners and execute them quickly.

For parity I've just been doing an edge swap in between. It works well enough and I seldom make a mistake with it, however it's slower than a single alg, because it's basically an alg done 3 times with a setup and undo move.

In the old pochmann method I'm using the buffer edge piece is on the UR, which would make the swapped pieces the UB and UL, plus the corners on the UR

When parity occurs, the cube in the picture would be look like it was turned clockwise to begin with.

Now, when I attempt to do the R perm, the second one listed, I prlerform a U turn first.

I always end up with a messed up cube when I do this. Should I do a U' at the end of the alg? I've tried this but it still messes up.

I've practiced shutting my eyes, swapping the edges with the edge swaping alg, then, U turn plus R perm, then look and the cube is solved...however when I try to perform the R perm during a blindfold solve, it doesn't work.

Shouldn't it work then if it works when I flip the edges?

I'd appreciate any help. I'd like to use this R perm because it's the easiest for me.
If this perm works in my regular solves, it should work for parity, right?


Thank you!


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## xyzzy (Mar 31, 2022)

The pictures aren't showing up, so I'm not entirely sure what the problem is.

If you want to know whether you have the correct AUF at the end, try doing it to a solved cube with your eyes open. If it swaps the UR corners and the UB edge with the UL edge, it's probably correct.

E.g. *(U)* (R U2 R' U2 R B' R' U' R U R B R2) should work, as should *(U')* (L U2 L' U2 L F' L' U' L U L F L2) *(U2)*.


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## jdh3000 (Mar 31, 2022)

xyzzy said:


> The pictures aren't showing up, so I'm not entirely sure what the problem is.
> 
> If you want to know whether you have the correct AUF at the end, try doing it to a solved cube with your eyes open. If it swaps the UR corners and the UB edge with the UL edge, it's probably correct.
> 
> E.g. *(U)* (R U2 R' U2 R B' R' U' R U R B R2) should work, as should *(U')* (L U2 L' U2 L F' L' U' L U L F L2) *(U2)*.



I’m sorry, here’s the picture.

So at the end of the R perm, if I did the U at beginning, it should set it back to where it needs to be with a U’?


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## Cuberstache (Mar 31, 2022)

jdh3000 said:


> I’m sorry, here’s the picture.
> 
> So at the end of the R perm, if I did the U at beginning, it should set it back to where it needs to be with a U’?


If you use the first alg there, start with a U', end with a U2
For the second one, start with U and do no AUF at the end
Exactly as xyzzy said.


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## Garf (Mar 31, 2022)

jdh3000 said:


> Pardon the long, drawn-out explanation.
> 
> I'm still having trouble using an R perm for parity.
> 
> ...


You could just skip parity all together. If you use speffz, then if you memorize your C corner as your A corner and vice versa, you will skip parity altogether and will be able to move onto the edges much easier.
Ex. U' R2 D B2 L2 D R2 U2 F2 U B2 U' B F2 L' U R2 B F' D L Uw
Memo with parity:
Edges: VE JQ RK WI GL C
Corners ( I use E as my buffer sticker, and U-L-B as my buffer): PU BF WH N

Memo using parity-skip trick:
Edges: VQ RK WI GL CJ EJ
Corners: PU BF WH N

When you follow the scramble and try the trick, you will find it pretty easy to use. A lot better than the R-perm algorithm.
As for to fix the problem, I would recommend this R-Perm algorithm if you don't want to "Skip Parity":
(R U R') F' (R U2' R' U2) (R' F R) U (R U2 R') U'


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## jdh3000 (Apr 1, 2022)

Cuberstache said:


> If you use the first alg there, start with a U', end with a U2
> For the second one, start with U and do no AUF at the end
> Exactly as xyzzy said.


The second one is the one I use. Yes I did what xyzzy suggested and triedit both ways, eyes open and found this to be the case.

I guess I had gotten so used to the other way during a full solve that trying to keep in mind to do this one was throwing me off. 
So I set up a few short "scrambles", just messing up a few pieces, then tried it both ways and found this one worked. 

I just need to practice it now on full solves until it becomes second nature. 

Thank you both!



xyzzy said:


> The pictures aren't showing up, so I'm not entirely sure what the problem is.
> 
> If you want to know whether you have the correct AUF at the end, try doing it to a solved cube with your eyes open. If it swaps the UR corners and the UB edge with the UL edge, it's probably correct.
> 
> E.g. *(U)* (R U2 R' U2 R B' R' U' R U R B R2) should work, as should *(U')* (L U2 L' U2 L F' L' U' L U L F L2) *(U2)*.


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## jdh3000 (Apr 1, 2022)

TheEpicCuber said:


> You could just skip parity all together. If you use speffz, then if you memorize your C corner as your A corner and vice versa, you will skip parity altogether and will be able to move onto the edges much easier.
> Ex. U' R2 D B2 L2 D R2 U2 F2 U B2 U' B F2 L' U R2 B F' D L Uw
> Memo with parity:
> Edges: VE JQ RK WI GL C
> ...



Could you tell me a little more please? 

It seems by your example that you are only swaping on the edges, would this be of I solved the corners first? 

Am I locked into solving the corners first or can I switch it and memo swaping corners if I start with solving the edges. 

I'm sorry I'm a bit confused, but the idea intrigues me.

If I'm going through and memorizing, then get to the end and see I'll need parity, will I have ro memorize again, or do I just mentally swap say E for A during my solve using the memo I have? 

When I tried this before I messed something up every time, so I gave up on it, but it does seem like it'd be better than an algorithm. 

Thank you!


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## Garf (Apr 1, 2022)

jdh3000 said:


> Could you tell me a little more please?
> 
> It seems by your example that you are only swaping on the edges, would this be of I solved the corners first?
> 
> ...


You have to solve edges before corners if you want to do the trick. If you do the corners first and also supply the trick I mentioned, you will end up swapping the A/Q and D/E edges. In the end, 3 pieces will always be swapped if you use your method.
If you don't want to switch, I supplied the RUF Ra-Perm that swaps without doing an AUF first.


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## Garf (Apr 1, 2022)

TheEpicCuber said:


> You have to solve edges before corners if you want to do the trick. If you do the corners first and also supply the trick I mentioned, you will end up swapping the A/Q and D/E edges. In the end, 3 pieces will always be swapped if you use your method.
> If you don't want to switch, I supplied the RUF Ra-Perm that swaps without doing an AUF first.


If you memo Corners, then edges, then solve edges, then corners, and also have parity: at the end of your memo, you will have an odd number of corners and an even number of edges.


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## Ahibu007 (Apr 6, 2022)

Someone please help me. How can I swap edge position between CE and OW?
In m2 method. 

In my cube ABCD are uper position, EFGH front and UVWX are down, MNOP are back.


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## theos (Apr 7, 2022)

Ahibu007 said:


> Someone please help me. How can I swap edge position between CE and OW?
> In m2 method.
> 
> In my cube ABCD are uper position, EFGH front and UVWX are down, MNOP are back.


If I understand correctly you're looking for algs to swap the buffer, presumably (DF), with targets on the M-slice. The M-slice algs I use:

UB: M2
BU: (U M')*3 (U M) (U M')*4
UF: U2 M' U2 M' [swap with DB if 2nd in pair]
FU: D M' (U R2 U') M (U R2 U') D' M2 [swap with BD if 2nd in pair]
DB: M U2 M U2 [swap with UF if 2nd in pair]
BD: M2 D (U R2 U') M' (U R2 U') M D' [swap with FU if 2nd in pair]


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## BadSpeedCuber (Apr 16, 2022)

with orozco for edges, when will i know, when finished memoing, how will i know what edge, UF or UR, will be flipped when it comes time to flip an edge in a solve
I keep getting frustrating DNFs with UF and UR swapped every few solves when i have a flipped edge, and its beginning to get on my nerves.


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## BadSpeedCuber (Apr 16, 2022)

with orozco for edges, when will i know, when finished memoing, how will i know what edge, UF or UR, will be flipped ("twisted") when it comes time to flip an edge in a solve
I keep getting frustrating DNFs with UF and UR flipped (twisted if you will) every few solves when i have a flipped edge, and its beginning to get on my nerves.


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## oneshot (Apr 17, 2022)

Theoruff said:


> I want to start 3BLD, and I watched some tutorials on the poachman method, and then I watched one on m2 for the edges. Would it be ok if I start with M2 and use regular poachman for the corners?


Yes, that’s what many people do, myself included.


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## oneshot (May 16, 2022)

I need help with knowing when I’m done with 4BLD edges. I knew there’s some formula, so if someone could give that to me that would be great. But is there some way figure out what hasn’t been memorized yet, because now when it seems short I have to think, “did I do A, did I do B…”. Or is it just a feeling you get with enough practice that you kind of see what’s already solved as you’re memorizing? Does that make sense?


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## Habsen (May 16, 2022)

oneshot said:


> I need help with knowing when I’m done with 4BLD edges. I knew there’s some formula, so if someone could give that to me that would be great. But is there some way figure out what hasn’t been memorized yet, because now when it seems short I have to think, “did I do A, did I do B…”. Or is it just a feeling you get with enough practice that you kind of see what’s already solved as you’re memorizing? Does that make sense?


The formula goes sth like: number of targets = 23 + number of cycle breaks - number of solved pieces

I used to put a finger on each edge that I have memorized. But most people only have ten fingers. So, once I memorized both pieces of an edge pair, I removed the finger and was (most of the time) still able to remember it, because I already went there twice. Maybe that helps.


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## Jacck (May 16, 2022)

oneshot said:


> I need help with knowing when I’m done with 4BLD edges. I knew there’s some formula, so if someone could give that to me that would be great. But is there some way figure out what hasn’t been memorized yet, because now when it seems short I have to think, “did I do A, did I do B…”. Or is it just a feeling you get with enough practice that you kind of see what’s already solved as you’re memorizing? Does that make sense?


Habsen's formula is correct. My way to memo wings (and the other sets) as a slowcuber: 
- before memorizing the wings I count all the wings, that are already solved
(this takes a bit of time, but I noticed, that I can memorize faster, when I don't have the fear, I could miss something)
- with the number of solved wings I can "calculate" the expected number of targets (23 minus solved wings)
- when I start the first new cycle, I put the right foot on its toes, for the 2nd new cyle I do this with the left foot, for the third cylce both feet
- therefore I can keep track of the numbers of additional cycles and the expected targets pretty easy
- my route / roman room has 6 places where I put 2 letterpairs each (= total of 24 letters); with 23 targets I should be in the last place with three letters - another check.
- I'm not good in keeping track of all already memorized wings. I have a couple of wings I would start a new cycle with (those with easy setups). With a bit of practice I would say that these wings are more present in my mind when I have already memorized them. Could be that I think something like "oh, this easy wing is gone if I have to start a new cycle". With my "worst" wings to solve it is quite the same, perhaps I think like "Attention, a difficult wing" while memorizing it. If I have to start a new cycle then I go through these targets first. But sometimes I have no clue and then I have to put fingers on the cube (like most people I just have 10 of them so I go through the memo first for the 8 wings on the top, then on the bottom and then in the middle).
- my biggest problem is that I often memorize the letter of the neighbour. I don't have a good concept against that except being concentrated or do a recall at the cube (which takes a lot of time) ...
- a minor problem is that I sometimes don't see all solved wings before I start memorizing. If I end up with, let's say, 22 letters instead of the excepted 23 I check the cube again for already solved wings. Yes, I waste some time to know the "probable" number of solved wings, cycles and targets, but I quite often make mistakes and then it is easier to realise that there must be a mistake and to find it.

OK, maybe one or two things could help you or give you inspiration for own ideas.


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## PiKeeper (May 17, 2022)

How did you guys start memorizing corners? I find it difficult to come up with images for about a third of the letter pairs, and I don't know how to create a story with them.


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## Garf (May 17, 2022)

PiKeeper said:


> How did you guys start memorizing corners? I find it difficult to come up with images for about a third of the letter pairs, and I don't know how to create a story with them.


I have a memo card for your troubles. Basically, I tried finding a word that I know and if I didn't know a good memorable word, then I would research and for each result that I found, I would see if it was memorable, and if it was, then I would use it.


https://quizlet.com/_b6891s?x=1jqt&i=2nw10k


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## bulkocuber (May 17, 2022)

PiKeeper said:


> How did you guys start memorizing corners? I find it difficult to come up with images for about a third of the letter pairs, and I don't know how to create a story with them.


then "just" do a list of all your letter pair words and try to use the same word every time you come across the same letter pair.
To create a story you simply have to be creative: you can make it really strange and funny so that it is easier to remember. You can make your own rules if it makes it easier to create a story: for instance, you can establish that the first word is the main character, the second one is the object he has, the third is the place where he is, the forth one can be the character he meets, etc.


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## KAINOS (Jun 18, 2022)

Has anyone proposed a variant of Orozco edges where you use UF-BU buffer-helper combo and cancel M moves between comms? For example to solve UF-RF-LB the solution becomes [U R' U': M'] [U' L U: M] which would be [U R' U', M'] [M', U' L U] in full Orozco.
The point is that what this method becomes is basically M2 but with alternating M'/M moves and UF buffer, which is objectively better buffer for 3-style than DF. To put it differently, you can take advantage of UF buffer comms with workload on your brain that is no more than what it takes to learn M2.
I used this method before switching to full Orozco, and I really think it's a better alternative for M2, especially for those who are looking to learn full 3-style eventually.
And even if you don't plan to learn 3-style, I still think it is better since M/M' moves are faster than M2. (duh)
The only downside I found was that you may mess up and do the wrong M move, but coming from experience it wasn't very hard to keep track of which one you should do once you get into the rhythm.
Really, it's just Orozco with slight modifications, but if anyone else hasn't come up with it yet, I'm calling it MSwing. (because the M slice swings back and forth!)


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## Timona (Jun 22, 2022)

Does it help to have a fixed orientation which you memo and exec so it's easier to track and memo, since you can recog colour stickers? Like if you're on White trope Green front, anytime you're doing memo, you're brain instantly tells you that the Blue sticker of Orange Blue goes to R


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## bulkocuber (Jun 22, 2022)

Timona said:


> Does it help to have a fixed orientation which you memo and exec so it's easier to track and memo, since you can recog colour stickers? Like if you're on White trope Green front, anytime you're doing memo, you're brain instantly tells you that the Blue sticker of Orange Blue goes to R


I didn't even know that not having a fixed orientation was a thing


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## GenTheThief (Jun 22, 2022)

Timona said:


> Does it help to have a fixed orientation which you memo and exec so it's easier to track and memo, since you can recog colour stickers? Like if you're on White trope Green front, anytime you're doing memo, you're brain instantly tells you that the Blue sticker of Orange Blue goes to R


Yes, generally (if not every single) most blinders solve in a fully fixed orientation.
The benefits of neutrality are severely outweighed by the benefits of a familiar orientation, along with not needing to make a decision about which orientation holds the most benefits with the timer running - while it may cost you a handful of moves, it saves many seconds. And with the WRs closing in on the 10 second barrier, that's pretty significant!


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## oneshot (Jun 29, 2022)

I’m trying to switch to to the method where you memo corners first and if there’s parity, when you memo edges, you switch UB and UL to avoid doing the parity alg. Is there some way to generate scrambles that have parity? Some app or website?
Thanks!


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## Cuberstache (Jun 29, 2022)

oneshot said:


> I’m trying to switch to to the method where you memo corners first and if there’s parity, when you memo edges, you switch UB and UL to avoid doing the parity alg. Is there some way to generate scrambles that have parity? Some app or website?
> Thanks!


If the scramble has an odd number of quarter face turns, there will be parity. You could count the quarter turns in the scramble before you start and do any quarter turn if there's no parity. I'm not sure of a website that specifically gives you scrambles with parity though.


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## oneshot (Jun 29, 2022)

Cuberstache said:


> If the scramble has an odd number of quarter face turns, there will be parity. You could count the quarter turns in the scramble before you start and do any quarter turn if there's no parity. I'm not sure of a website that specifically gives you scrambles with parity though.


Awesome. That helps. I did almost have a meltdown because trying this new way I knew there was parity and when I memorized edges, there was an even number and I was thinking it should be one left over like the way I had been doing it…


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## abunickabhi (Jun 29, 2022)

I need some help making a colpi like website for letter quads. (Letter quads is a memo system where we have a single image for 4 stickers/targets, been developing since 2017 and recently completed it for a mix of english/hindi/marathi) 

Is anyone who is good with coding and knows a bit about blind willing to help?


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## kake123 (Jul 5, 2022)

Just purchased a bunch of wrm 2021s for mbld. Noticed that they repel each other somewhat (magnets).

Did I make a rookie mistake by buying the wrong cube for mbld?


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## Skewbed (Jul 6, 2022)

I've heard that a lot of people who do large attempts don't use magnetic cubes.


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## baseballjello67 (Jul 6, 2022)

1: Its expensive if ur good.............
2: you could get the same problem u got


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## oneshot (Jul 6, 2022)

I’m trying to figure out the rescramble event. I heard it’s just 3BLD in reverse, but it doesn’t seem to work out. Is there something where it matters if you switch C/W and I/S if they are first or second in the letter pair? And how do you deal with parity? Does it depend on the orientation it was scrambled in?


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## Jacck (Jul 6, 2022)

For rescrambling you can memo the cube, then do the execution completely backwards. You'll have to start with the inverse move that would be last in a normal blindsolve of that memo.
If your normal blind solution needs the moves: U L R' D .... U2 R B' D you would do D' B R' U2 ... D' R L' U'
And normally you don't have to think about every move, just switch the letterpairs and their order: If you memorized LT HU RF you will exe it like FR UH TL.
Parity: just "examine" what you do at which point and then do it reverse/inverse. And it should be clear, that if you normally solve edges and then corners you will have to begin with corners.

Just think: you have a scrambled cube and apply the solution to get it solved. If you apply the inverse solution to a solved cube you will get the scrambled cube.
Maybe it helps you!


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## oneshot (Jul 10, 2022)

I’m still struggling with rescramble. I scrambled with green front, white on top. 
D’ F2 U R2 B2 D2 B2 U’ R2 F2 U2 F’ R2 D U F D’ L R D L’
My orientation is blue front, yellow top. I use Y instead of X.
My memo is:
Edges: AB HE JY NI IB OV
Corners: JE IH PB LU

So I executed
Edges: VO BI IN YJ EH BA
Corners: UL BP HI EJ

Corners were right, but edges were a little off. So I thought maybe when you execute backwards, you need to change the I for S because the I is now section the letter pair and I tried again, but again corners were correct, but edges were off a little. It’s like the I, B and N edges are cycled. Everything else is fine.
What am I doing wrong?


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## Jacck (Jul 10, 2022)

Sorry, oneshot, I don't think I can help you there. I have an own blind- and lettersystem, so I don't know about Speffz-letters and usual buffers.
I thought, my (more general) advice should help - at least it did with corners. It should work with edges ... could it be that the reason is that you have NI IB = two "I" after each other, odd? What is it good for? I cannot imagine a system with a letter doubled.
An idea: Take two PLL and two OLL as scramble to get a cube that is scrambled not too bad. Then write down the normal solution move by move and write down the rescrambling solution move by move, too - and compare them.


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## Habsen (Jul 10, 2022)

oneshot said:


> I’m still struggling with rescramble. I scrambled with green front, white on top.
> D’ F2 U R2 B2 D2 B2 U’ R2 F2 U2 F’ R2 D U F D’ L R D L’
> My orientation is blue front, yellow top. I use Y instead of X.
> My memo is:
> ...


Did you change both I for S? Executing BS SN is the inverse of NI IB.
It's not about whether I now comes first or second in the letter pair, but that I and S are inverse algorithms of each other.


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## oneshot (Jul 11, 2022)

Habsen said:


> Did you change both I for S? Executing BS SN is the inverse of NI IB.
> It's not about whether I now comes first or second in the letter pair, but that I and S are inverse algorithms of each other.


Well, that worked, I’m just not sure why it worked. If the memo was just LN, wouldn’t you just execute NL, not N’L’? 
Like, if I is the inverse of S, how is B the inverse of B?
Maybe if I do a bunch more examples, it will start to make sense. But definitely thanks for the help!


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## Habsen (Jul 11, 2022)

oneshot said:


> Well, that worked, I’m just not sure why it worked. If the memo was just LN, wouldn’t you just execute NL, not N’L’?
> Like, if I is the inverse of S, how is B the inverse of B?
> Maybe if I do a bunch more examples, it will start to make sense. But definitely thanks for the help!


The algs for all the non M-slice targets are symmetric, meaning that they are inverses of themselves.
They look like this: setup M2 setup'. If you execute them twice, you get back to the original state.


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## Okopatie (Jul 23, 2022)

As a beginner to 4BLD, is it better to use U2 and then switch to commutators as I improve, or should I go straight into commutators?


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## Greenfrog (Aug 10, 2022)

Hi all,

I'm very new to blind solving. Just wondering if there are any OK alternatives to the Speffz lettering system? Are there any other systems that work with numbers, or any others that are completely different? 

Also I'm wondering what are the main decent methods for the actual memorization - I tried the letter pair = word thing but find that horribly difficult. 
Any suggestions and advice is appreciated!


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## Thom S. (Aug 10, 2022)

Of course you find letter pair difficult, the human mind at most ever tries to abreviate words onto letter pairs, never the other way around.
That's why I(in contrast to Noah) like that there are public letter pair lists - have a look at those every once in a while to learn something new.
Other methods are possible. Earlier BLDers have tried to use methods used for Card Deck memo, but letter pairs, sentences and Roman Rooms seem to have come out on top.


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## Nevan J (Aug 17, 2022)

Can you give me tips on faster memo without audio on edges? I can't memo fast. Also should i start learning audio for edges as partial solves? Because i cannot memo all edges with audio



Pls give tips


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## bulkocuber (Aug 17, 2022)

Nevan J said:


> Can you give me tips on faster memo without audio on edges? I can't memo fast. Also should i start learning audio for edges as partial solves? Because i cannot memo all edges with audio
> 
> 
> 
> Pls give tips


No one can do it at first, you just need practice and you'll able to do it. You should do edge-only scrambles so that you can focus on them better. You can also try to progressively increase the number of edges you're trying to memo, so for instance you can start from 4 letters, then move to 6 and 8 and so on until you can do them all in one go. 
If you want I can give you more specific tips for audio memo.


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## Nevan J (Aug 17, 2022)

Should I make a story for audio as well? (i know we don't do that with audio memo, I am just confirming)


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## bulkocuber (Aug 17, 2022)

Nevan J said:


> Should I make a story for audio as well? (i know we don't do that with audio memo, I am just confirming)


No you don't make a story out of that. You'll have random syllables and even if you happen to get a real word don't make a story or similar things


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## Nevan J (Aug 17, 2022)

ok, thanks!


bulkocuber said:


> No you don't make a story out of that. You'll have random syllables and even if you happen to get a real word don't make a story or similar things


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## AJT17 (Sep 6, 2022)

So I am wanting to learn how to solve the 3x3 blindfolded, and I have been looking on Jperm's website, and when swapping 2 edges with the t-perm I noticed it also affects the corners, and when you do setup moves it would move those edges around, so I was wondering if that actually affects the solve and memorizing the cube.


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## Imsoosm (Sep 6, 2022)

AJT17 said:


> So I am wanting to learn how to solve the 3x3 blindfolded, and I have been looking on Jperm's website, and when swapping 2 edges with the t-perm I noticed it also affects the corners, and when you do setup moves it would move those edges around, so I was wondering if that actually affects the solve and memorizing the cube.


Yes, it does affect the corners. You always have both even or both odd numbers of corners and edges. Say there are 8 edges and 10 corners. If you do 8 times T perm, the corners are still solved. If you have 9 edges and 11 corners, then you do parity alg.

There are no algorithms that only swap 2 pieces. That's only possible on a even numbered cube starting from 4x4.

And yes, setup moves do affect the edges. That's why you undo setup moves.


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## AJT17 (Sep 6, 2022)

Imsoosm said:


> Yes, it does affect the corners. You always have both even or both odd numbers of corners and edges. Say there are 8 edges and 10 corners. If you do 8 times T perm, the corners are still solved. If you have 9 edges and 11 corners, then you do parity alg.
> 
> And yes, setup moves do affect the edges. That's why you undo setup moves.


Ok, I knew that you undid the setup moves, and thanks for letting me know about both being even or odd and parity.


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## kbrune (Sep 13, 2022)

I'm trying to figure out how to adapt X and + centers from 5x5 to 7bld centers that aren't X and +. I've been searching for turorials on 7bld or just 7bld information in general and I haven't found anything. Can anyone point me in the right direction?


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## abunickabhi (Sep 17, 2022)

kbrune said:


> I'm trying to figure out how to adapt X and + centers from 5x5 to 7bld centers that aren't X and +. I've been searching for tutorials on 7bld or just 7bld information in general and I haven't found anything. Can anyone point me in the right direction?







This tutorial did a decent job explaining bigBLD back in the day. I still feel it is relevant today for getting to know about 7BLD centers. Hope it helps!


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## SpeedCubeLegend17 (Sep 30, 2022)

I've been struggling with learning M2 for edges in 3BLD, and I was wondering if it is the best method to allow me to get faster, and if I should just keep trying. I'm much slower with it, and I haven't had a successful solve yet. I'm mostly struggling with setup moves. Should I try another method, or does anyone have some tips?


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## Cuberstache (Sep 30, 2022)

SpeedCubeLegend17 said:


> I've been struggling with learning M2 for edges in 3BLD, and I was wondering if it is the best method to allow me to get faster, and if I should just keep trying. I'm much slower with it, and I haven't had a successful solve yet. I'm mostly struggling with setup moves. Should I try another method, or does anyone have some tips?


Have you already gotten successful blindfolded solves with Old Pochmann? If yes, keep trying with M2 as it's the best next step. If no, I would recommend starting out with Old Pochmann, although M2 isn't really that much harder.


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## SpeedCubeLegend17 (Sep 30, 2022)

Cuberstache said:


> Have you already gotten successful blindfolded solves with Old Pochmann? If yes, keep trying with M2 as it's the best next step. If no, I would recommend starting out with Old Pochmann, although M2 isn't really that much harder.


Yes, I have quite a few successes with Old Pochmann, and I average about 3 minutes with it.


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## Cuberstache (Sep 30, 2022)

SpeedCubeLegend17 said:


> Yes, I have quite a few successes with Old Pochmann, and I average about 3 minutes with it.


In that case, learning M2 is exactly what you should be doing. Just keep at it, and see if you can find some example solves to help you with setup moves.


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## SpeedCubeLegend17 (Sep 30, 2022)

Cuberstache said:


> In that case, learning M2 is exactly what you should be doing. Just keep at it, and see if you can find some example solves to help you with setup moves.


Ok, thanks!


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## SpeedCubeLegend17 (Sep 30, 2022)

I just decided to ask this on my previous thread, but how fast with M2/OP allow me to get? What methods come next?


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## Cuberstache (Oct 1, 2022)

SpeedCubeLegend17 said:


> I just decided to ask this on my previous thread, but how fast with M2/OP allow me to get? What methods come next?


You could theoretically get sub-30 and maybe a bit faster with M2/OP but you should probably look into either Orozco or 3-style when you're around a minute.


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## Samuel Baird (Oct 3, 2022)

I peaked averaging about 30 second execution with M2/OP, the algs and setups are are pretty tps friendly so it’s not too hard to get some decent solve items.

adding to what cuberstache said, I would recommend sticking with M2/OP until you are a bit faster and really want to commit to 3bld. At that point learn 3style. The time that someone is averaging may be different from person to person.

if you reach a point where you feel like M2/OP is limiting you but you don’t feel like learning 3style then I would recommend learning eka edges and corners


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## SpeedCubeLegend17 (Oct 23, 2022)

I've been having trouble remembering corners after edge execution, unless I review them multiple times which makes memo slower. But, I also come up with words on the spot, so would creating words for each pair and then memorizing them help with recall?


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## abunickabhi (Oct 24, 2022)

SpeedCubeLegend17 said:


> I've been having trouble remembering corners after edge execution, unless I review them multiple times which makes memo slower. But, I also come up with words on the spot, so would creating words for each pair and then memorizing them help with recall?


Do not come up with words on the spot. Have a predefined list in a google sheet where you have figured out all the letter pairs.
Reviewing corners once is good enough, if you have trouble recalling it during exec, make sure that your corner image has some kind of a trigger that you can initiate if there is a chance of going blank.


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## Mastermind2368 (Nov 14, 2022)

I've been learning Orozco, and I've gotten quite comfortable with solving edges (At least sighted, still need to finish learning corners before I do BLD attempts). In sighted solving I notice that I can quite often cancel moves into the next comm, and I try to do it whenever I can as it does save moves. My question is, should this be a top priority in improving edges, or are there other things that are more important to focus on? 

Also, some of my finger tricks are not the fastest, I sometimes have multiple regrips and such. Is this something that I should work on cutting out right now, or is this something that I should try to gradually improve over time?


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## SkewbIsTheBestEvent (Nov 14, 2022)

I have a question: I currently average 4 minutes on 3BLD, and I use M2/OP. How many solves do I need to do to get Sub 1?


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## SpeedCubeLegend17 (Nov 14, 2022)

SkewbIsTheBestEvent said:


> I have a question: I currently average 4 minutes on 3BLD, and I use M2/OP. How many solves do I need to do to get Sub 1?


I average around 1:30 with M2/OP, and I've done hundreds of solves. What are your splits? My memo is usually 30-40 seconds while my execution is around 40-50 seconds.


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## SkewbIsTheBestEvent (Nov 15, 2022)

My splits are 2.5minutes memorizing and 1.5 minutes of execution. So far I've only done 100 solves.


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## SpeedCubeLegend17 (Nov 15, 2022)

SkewbIsTheBestEvent said:


> My splits are 2.5minutes memorizing and 1.5 minutes of execution. So far I've only done 100 solves.


Definitely work on memo first, I use audio for edges and images for corners, are you familiar with this memo technique? Something that helped me was trying to rush my memo, and just doing it over and over again until successes become more frequent. I am definitely not an expert in BLD solving but this is just my experience.


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## Nevan J (Nov 18, 2022)

I average 3 minutes to 4 minutes on 3BLD, so when should I start learning audio memo for edges? i use M2/OP


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## Garf (Nov 18, 2022)

Nevan J said:


> I average 3 minutes to 4 minutes on 3BLD, so when should I start learning audio memo for edges? i use M2/OP


Learn it now, and get faster at it. It will feel weird, but you will get used to it in a few weeks.


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## SkewbIsTheBestEvent (Nov 18, 2022)

SpeedCubeLegend17 said:


> Definitely work on memo first, I use audio for edges and images for corners, are you familiar with this memo technique? Something that helped me was trying to rush my memo, and just doing it over and over again until successes become more frequent. I am definitely not an expert in BLD solving but this is just my experience.


I use audio for edges and images for corners, but should I make a letter-pair system now or later?
Basically what I mean by the letter-pair system is that people use a spreadsheet to write all of their letter pairs.


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## SpeedCubeLegend17 (Nov 18, 2022)

SkewbIsTheBestEvent said:


> I use audio for edges and images for corners, but should I make a letter-pair system now or later?
> Basically what I mean by the letter-pair system is that people use a spreadsheet to write all of their letter pairs.


I would recommend making one now, although I still haven't made one and don't plan on making one soon.


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## Brouxt Force (Nov 19, 2022)

SkewbIsTheBestEvent said:


> I use audio for edges and images for corners, but should I make a letter-pair system now or later?
> Basically what I mean by the letter-pair system is that people use a spreadsheet to write all of their letter pairs.


If you plan on doing anything bigger than 3BLD (bigBLD or MBLD) in the future, it's definitely a good idea to make a list of letter pairs. Even just for 3BLD, it is very useful when you run into difficult letter pairs, as those are hard to come up with on the fly. I personally have compiled my own list, and although I haven't learned the full thing yet (yay procrastination), when I come across pairs I do know, the whole process is just much faster.

So yes, now would be a good idea.


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## SkewbIsTheBestEvent (Nov 19, 2022)

Brouxt Force said:


> If you plan on doing anything bigger than 3BLD (bigBLD or MBLD) in the future, it's definitely a good idea to make a list of letter pairs. Even just for 3BLD, it is very useful when you run into difficult letter pairs, as those are hard to come up with on the fly. I personally have compiled my own list, and although I haven't learned the full thing yet (yay procrastination), when I come across pairs I do know, the whole process is just much faster.
> 
> So yes, now would be a good idea.


Ok, Thanks!


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## Nevan J (Nov 19, 2022)

Garf said:


> Learn it now, and get faster at it. It will feel weird, but you will get used to it in a few weeks.


Ok thanks!


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## SpeedCubeLegend17 (Nov 24, 2022)

Just looking for a general estimate, how long does it take to learn 3-style corners, and what was your approach to it like? And what were your times and solves like during the process?


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## Cuberstache (Nov 25, 2022)

SpeedCubeLegend17 said:


> Just looking for a general estimate, how long does it take to learn 3-style corners, and what was your approach to it like? And what were your times and solves like during the process?


It took me two weeks, but that doesn't count the time spent learning how commutators work and whatnot, just learning the comms from a sheet. I learned one set per day, then upped it to two or more sets later on as the sets got smaller. And I practiced the comms I knew over and over again whenever I had a little free time, noting down the ones I forgot if I couldn't immediately look them up. I didn't do any solves until I finished the whole thing, and my times were naturally slow at first, but I was back to normal times within about a month. Edges was a similar experience. The only reason I didn't learn edges right after corners is because I had a couple competitions with blind and wanted to actually be able to solve the puzzle lol.


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## SpeedCubeLegend17 (Nov 25, 2022)

Cuberstache said:


> It took me two weeks, but that doesn't count the time spent learning how commutators work and whatnot, just learning the comms from a sheet. I learned one set per day, then upped it to two or more sets later on as the sets got smaller. And I practiced the comms I knew over and over again whenever I had a little free time, noting down the ones I forgot if I couldn't immediately look them up. I didn't do any solves until I finished the whole thing, and my times were naturally slow at first, but I was back to normal times within about a month. Edges was a similar experience. The only reason I didn't learn edges right after corners is because I had a couple competitions with blind and wanted to actually be able to solve the puzzle lol.


Great, thanks! I have a general understanding if commutators and how to intuitively solve simpler ones, but figured I'd move on to algs now.


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## abunickabhi (Nov 28, 2022)

SkewbIsTheBestEvent said:


> I use audio for edges and images for corners, but should I make a letter-pair system now or later?
> Basically what I mean by the letter-pair system is that people use a spreadsheet to write all of their letter pairs.


Yes do make a letter pair system and make stuff systematic.
I recommend you check out colpi first for some good letter pairs in a lot of languages.


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## Caden Fisher (Dec 26, 2022)

Could someone do 1 or 2 “example“ bld solves on here where you just post the scramble and letter pairs so I can practice execution? I haven’t had a success but I want to practice memo ing the pairs without having to worry about if I messed something up or not.


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## Jorian Meeuse (Dec 26, 2022)

Caden Fisher said:


> Could someone do 1 or 2 “example“ bld solves on here where you just post the scramble and letter pairs so I can practice execution? I haven’t had a success but I want to practice memo ing the pairs without having to worry about if I messed something up or not.


Do you use J perms letter scheme? Because i can do it but if our letter schemes are different it wouldnt work. Edit: I would also need to know your buffers. Im assuming LUB and UR?

in that case:
L2 R' B2 D2 L2 R F2 D2 F D B U2 L' R2 B R B'
Corners: PC DM BH QG U
Edges: GW VR AE UL CN A


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## ProStar (Dec 26, 2022)

Jorian Meeuse said:


> Do you use J perms letter scheme? Because i can do it but if our letter schemes are different it wouldnt work. Edit: I would also need to know your buffers. Im assuming LUB and UR?



To clarify, J perm teaches the Speffz lettering scheme, which is the most common in BLD (although many people will swap letters like Q or X for something else)


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## Keroma12 (Dec 26, 2022)

Caden Fisher said:


> Could someone do 1 or 2 “example“ bld solves on here where you just post the scramble and letter pairs so I can practice execution? I haven’t had a success but I want to practice memo ing the pairs without having to worry about if I messed something up or not.


These sites can generate letter pairs for scrambles: https://csclub.uwaterloo.ca/~krmatthe/BLD-Memo-Tools.cgi and https://scrambld.cubing.net/


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## Caden Fisher (Dec 26, 2022)

Jorian Meeuse said:


> Do you use J perms letter scheme? Because i can do it but if our letter schemes are different it wouldnt work. Edit: I would also need to know your buffers. Im assuming LUB and UR?
> 
> in that case:
> L2 R' B2 D2 L2 R F2 D2 F D B U2 L' R2 B R B'
> ...


I believe I use speffz letter scheme. My alg swaps E and V and for edges I just use T or J perm.


Keroma12 said:


> These sites can generate letter pairs for scrambles: https://csclub.uwaterloo.ca/~krmatthe/BLD-Memo-Tools.cgi and https://scrambld.cubing.net/


Thanks!


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