# Speedsolving wiki: PLL Page



## JustinJ (Jan 25, 2011)

I was looking at the PLL page today, and I'm wondering, what's the wiki stance on mirrors and inverses? For example, Ra has, among others, the following algs:

y2 z U R2 U' R2 U F' U' R' U R U F U2 R
y2 L U2 L' U2 L F' L' U' L U L F L2 U
R U2 R' U2 R B' R' U' R U R B R2' U
R U2 R' U2 R B' R' U' R U l U R2 F

Which is a little ridiculous. I'd like to delete all but the second one, which is the best in my opinion, but that seems too subjective of a decision for a wiki page, so what's the best solution?


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## kpcube (Jan 25, 2011)

I use Y' R U' R' U' R U R D R' U' R D' R' U2 R' U'

Which is quite wonderful if you ask me


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## Zarxrax (Jan 25, 2011)

If people could potentially want to use them, I don't see any reason to delete them. Most people probably just go down the list performing each alg listed to see how they like it. I honestly don't think everyone feels like taking the time to work out mirrors for every single alg on their own.

However, I think it would be nice to group similar algs like that together, so its clear that they are all based off the same alg.


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## FatBoyXPC (Jan 25, 2011)

I was under the impression the whole point for putting multiple algorithms for all the cases was so that people could pick which one(s) they like.


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## cmhardw (Jan 25, 2011)

I agree that the function of the Wiki is to provide a vast resource of all possible options, and people can pick the ones they like. I don't think any algs should be deleted from that list, only new algs added. Having said that, I also think it's a bit strange how sometimes people who like a particular alg very much right handed will not use the reflection of that alg to left handed for the reflected case. The opposite situation could be true for left handed cubers not reflecting to right handed for the reflected case.


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## FatBoyXPC (Jan 25, 2011)

I used to reflect my algorithms, specifically the G PLL's. I actually cheated a good bit with PLL when learning it a year ago by learning one alg but getting two cases from it. This made learning PLL quite a bit easier. At the time, I believed my left hand was good enough to preform up to par with my right hand. I realized this was a big mistake, as my LH G perms took 4 seconds to execute! I changed this past August to RH algs only and I can consistently sub2 all PLLs, so I'm definitely going to stick with RH algs. I realize practice could fix this, but it takes me less practice with RH algs than it does LH algs to get them sub2


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## Sa967St (Jan 25, 2011)

fatboyxpc said:


> I was under the impression the whole point for putting multiple algorithms for all the cases was so that people could pick which one(s) they like.


The thing about those R perm algs is that they are all the exact same alg just performed a bit differently. They aren't mirrored, they're the same alg with different rotations.



Zarxrax said:


> I think it would be nice to group similar algs like that together, so its clear that they are all based off the same alg.


Agreed.


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## JustinJ (Jan 25, 2011)

fatboyxpc said:


> I was under the impression the whole point for putting multiple algorithms for all the cases was so that people could pick which one(s) they like.


 
They're all the same alg, just with rotations.



Zarxrax said:


> If people could potentially want to use them, I don't see any reason to delete them. Most people probably just go down the list performing each alg listed to see how they like it. I honestly don't think everyone feels like taking the time to work out mirrors for every single alg on their own.
> 
> However, I think it would be nice to group similar algs like that together, so its clear that they are all based off the same alg.


 
For one thing, the last two are almost identical, there's no difference in execution, so there's absolutely no reason to keep both. Having repeats of the same alg makes it more time consuming to go through the list to look for nice ones. I might agree if the transformations were significant, but in this case the first one is just z, and the last two are only a y2 away.

I wouldn't have as much of a problem if when people added mirrors, they added them directly below the original algs. Part of my problem is that a lot of these algs are added to the top of the list. I think the more common algs should be placed at the top, rather than obscure ones like y2 z U R2 U' R2 U F' U' R' U R U F U2 R.



cmhardw said:


> I agree that the function of the Wiki is to provide a vast resource of all possible options, and people can pick the ones they like. I don't think any algs should be deleted from that list, only new algs added.



I have to disagree that algs shouldn't be deleted, there are some that there's absolutely no purpose for, like "R' D' R D' B D B' D R' D' R U R' D R D' B D' B' D R' D R U" that's listed under H perms. I agree that there should be a variety of algs, but there needs to be some discretion involved in what's just clutter and what's actually useful.


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## cmhardw (Jan 25, 2011)

JustinJ said:


> I have to disagree that algs shouldn't be deleted, there are some that there's absolutely no purpose for, like "R' D' R D' B D B' D R' D' R U R' D R D' B D' B' D R' D R U" that's listed under H perms. I agree that there should be a variety of algs, but there needs to be some discretion involved in what's just clutter and what's actually useful.


 
Seeing as the front page of the PLL Wiki says this:


> The following page gives a list of all of the PLLs, along with a picture and a list of common algorithms for each one.



Then yes, I suppose algs like that particularly long H perm should be deleted. Some algs may be interesting from a fewest moves standpoint, or a general theory standpoint, but this PLL list is defined as a list of "common" algs. Based on that, yes I can see the reason in deleting that longer H perm alg.


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## Sa967St (Jan 25, 2011)

Surely some of the algs here should be deleted:



Spoiler












The first nine or so are just two(?) different algorithms.


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## Mike Hughey (Jan 25, 2011)

cmhardw said:


> Having said that, I also think it's a bit strange how sometimes people who like a particular alg very much right handed will not use the reflection of that alg to left handed for the reflected case. The opposite situation could be true for left handed cubers not reflecting to right handed for the reflected case.


 
Chris, do you always use reflections of algorithms you like? I've asked this question generically before, and never gotten a response from anyone. It seems logical that a reflection should always work if you're truly ambidextrous, but I definitely don't use reflections of many of my algorithms (except BLD). A good example is that I recently switched to the conjugated T perm for the one J perm, but I couldn't possibly do a reflected T perm (I admittedly haven't ever really tried it), so I definitely don't use the corresponding reflection for the other J perm. I know other people who use a different, much longer conjugated alg for the other J perm using the right-handed T perm, rather than reflect.

I think I need to go learn the left-handed T perm now.


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## JustinJ (Jan 25, 2011)

cmhardw said:


> Seeing as the front page of the PLL Wiki says this:
> 
> 
> Then yes, I suppose algs like that particularly long H perm should be deleted. Some algs may be interesting from a fewest moves standpoint, or a general theory standpoint, but this PLL list is defined as a list of "common" algs. Based on that, yes I can see the reason in deleting that longer H perm alg.



Perhaps there should be a separate page to put algs like this, in the interest of keeping all the algs on the PLL page practical for speedsolving (or the other way around)? There are plenty of others that I don't think should be on there as well.


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## cmhardw (Jan 25, 2011)

Mike Hughey said:


> Chris, do you always use reflections of algorithms you like? I've asked this question generically before, and never gotten a response from anyone. It seems logical that a reflection should always work if you're truly ambidextrous, but I definitely don't use reflections of many of my algorithms (except BLD). A good example is that I recently switched to the conjugated T perm for the one J perm, but I couldn't possibly do a reflected T perm (I admittedly haven't ever really tried it), so I definitely don't use the corresponding reflection for the other J perm. I know other people who use a different, much longer conjugated alg for the other J perm using the right-handed T perm, rather than reflect.
> 
> I think I need to go learn the left-handed T perm now.


 
Hey Mike,

To be honest, yes for the most part I always use the reflections of algs I like. I will even do algs like the F, V, Z perm left handed if it presents itself that way to me. There are some OLL's that I haven't yet learned to do both handed, but I know that I could if I chose to. I also haven't learned to do the H perm competently fast left handed, although I can do it left handed if I try.

I am a right handed person, but back in 2002 I decided that as far as I was concerned it was completely unacceptable to use a different right handed alg rather than the left handed reflection of a right handed alg that I liked very much. I will admit that it took a long time to adjust to this. The first algs that I really worked on getting "up to speed" left handed were all the Sune/Anti-Sune variations. It was actually quite difficult for me to adapt to getting fast at all these algs left handed at first. Previous to working on them I only did them from 1 fixed angle if it was a left handed Sune. Over time, and with tons of "lefty drills" I eventually got comfortable with the Sunes left handed from all angles and moved onto other algs.

I have found that I am not ambidextrous, I always default to right handed for things. However, I force myself to also be competent with most everything I do left handed as well. I can write, somewhat legibly, left-handed. I can cup stack both right and left handed (there is a dominant hand in cup stacking). I'm admittedly not the fastest speedsolver around, so I suspect that most of the top cubers would completely disagree with me on this point. I suspect even that most of the really fast speedsolvers have not read even this far into my post. I personally find it empowering to know that although I am genetically a right handed person, that I can overcome that limitation if I choose to. I choose to be ambidextrous in cubing, and therefore with practice I became ambidextrous in my cubing.

Chris

P.S. My left handed T perm, and my left handed J perm are *both* faster than the right handed versions now. They have been that way for a few years now, I've even done averages of 50 for each alg both hands. It goes to show that sometimes you're better at something (left handed algs) than you think you might be.


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## TiLiMayor (Jan 25, 2011)

I don't get what yuu JustinJ are pretending, what I thought when I first came across the PLL wiki page is that there are so many algs (technically the same) to let people choose between them for the one who suits them better. yes, I believe this look so much messy just to show people different fingertricks on how to perform the same alg too, so for yuu saying there should be some sort of grouping for the algs in each case, but to reach a point in which we delete the vast log of reflections just to make it look nicer doesn't seem thet logical to me, a begginer cuber making its way learning his first PLL algs can take some time to mirror correctly or to find more suitable fingertricks for a single alg.


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## Sa967St (Jan 25, 2011)

TiLiMayor said:


> I don't get what yuu JustinJ are pretending, what I thought when I first came across the PLL wiki page is that there are so many algs (technically the same) to let people choose between them for the one who suits them better. yes, I believe this look so much messy just to show people different fingertricks on how to perform the same alg too, so for yuu saying there should be some sort of grouping for the algs in each case, but to reach a point in which we delete the vast log of reflections just to make it look nicer doesn't seem thet logical to me, a begginer cuber making its way learning his first PLL algs can take some time to mirror correctly or to find more suitable fingertricks for a single alg.


 
JJ mostly means deleting duplicate algs that come up more than once with slight modifications, like this:

R U2 R' U2 R B' R' U' R U R B R2' U
R U2 R' U2 R B' R' U' R U l U R2 F

Only the last few moves are different and the fingertricks for both are pretty much the same.


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## FatBoyXPC (Jan 25, 2011)

Ah, I didn't see they were the same (my fault, since I didn't even read the algorithms, just took note that he listed a few of them). I would agree that makes sense


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## TiLiMayor (Jan 25, 2011)

Sa967St said:


> JJ mostly means deleting duplicate algs that come up more than once with slight modifications, like this:
> 
> R U2 R' U2 R B' R' U' R U R B R2' U
> R U2 R' U2 R B' R' U' R U l U R2 F
> ...


 
So some sort of grouping as Zarxrax said? scroll down spoilers?


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## JustinJ (Jan 25, 2011)

Perhaps deleting them isn't the best option, but having blatantly slower reflections/rotations, like y2 z U R2 U' R2 U F' U' R' U R U F U2 R, or just useless (from a speedsolving perspective) algs, like (R' S R u) * 6 displayed alongside commonly used algs is a bit silly.

A beginning cuber doesn't know what algs are good since they're no good at turning yet. Having so many algs will just turn off beginners who don't know how to tell which are good. When I was a beginner, I gravitated to the sites with only one alg per case, since I didn't want to accidentally pick a bad alg. At the very least, I'm going to move all the decent algs to the top.


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## qqwref (Jan 25, 2011)

I think:
- we should aim for only ONE listing for each sequence of turns (hopefully using the fastest style); it is well-known that any algorithm can be performed in multiple ways, and that's part of learning it. Listing every possible way it could be performed is a waste of space.
- we should keep as many separate algorithms as we can, but move the best ones to the top (and possibly bold them or something).


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## FatBoyXPC (Jan 25, 2011)

qqwref said:


> it is well-known that any algorithm can be performed in multiple ways, and that's part of learning it.



I think if we were to think about beginners here, I would be inclined to disagree with this in their favor. I have seen a lot of posts (and I'm guilty of doing the same thing) of telling people to choose an alg from the list that they can feel flows well for their style. I think that seeing the alternate notation to show execution differences is beneficial in this aspect.

I would agree though that it does clutter the list, take up space, and we could probably benefit by finding a way to display alternate notations with the same algorithm (maybe a lightbox or other type of pop up window).


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## riffz (Jan 25, 2011)

cmhardw said:


> I'm admittedly not the fastest speedsolver around, so I suspect that most of the top cubers would completely disagree with me on this point.


 
Just a quick note (and maybe a question to others). I am very right-handed, to the point that I only do the double flick U2 with my right hand, but I noticed in one of Feliks' videos that he does the double flick with both hands.

Do most non-ambidextrous people do the double flick with either hand?


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## FatBoyXPC (Jan 25, 2011)

I have a very hard time getting used to the double flick with my left hand. I tried to get used to it, but I can't seem to (but then again as soon as it starts feeling too awkward I just quit because I can and get a "just do it with my right hand and get over it" type of attitude).


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## Joël (Jan 25, 2011)

I agree with ts. It's stupid to have the same alg listed multiple times. I can understand why there would be a right handed and left handed version, but to duplicate "R U R B R2' U" with "R U l U R2 F" is just a waste of space.


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## JustinJ (Jan 25, 2011)

fatboyxpc said:


> I think if we were to think about beginners here, I would be inclined to disagree with this in their favor. I have seen a lot of posts (and I'm guilty of doing the same thing) of telling people to choose an alg from the list that they can feel flows well for their style. I think that seeing the alternate notation to show execution differences is beneficial in this aspect.



I feel that beginners aren't really able to determine what algs are good, even for them specifically, without more experience cubing. Better that they end up with a general alg that will work well for everyone than some specific one that they didn't realize was an alternative alg.



riffz said:


> Just a quick note (and maybe a question to others). I am very right-handed, to the point that I only do the double flick U2 with my right hand, but I noticed in one of Feliks' videos that he does the double flick with both hands.
> 
> Do most non-ambidextrous people do the double flick with either hand?


 
I do, and I think Eric Limeback did it with his left hand before he could do it with his right hand, and he's right handed.


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## Sa967St (Jan 25, 2011)

JustinJ said:


> riffz said:
> 
> 
> > Just a quick note (and maybe a question to others). I am very right-handed, to the point that I only do the double flick U2 with my right hand, but I noticed in one of Feliks' videos that he does the double flick with both hands.
> ...



Eric can only do U2 fast with his left hand.  
Rowan Kinneavy does U2 like U2' with his left hand too, and his R perms (the algs with U2 twice) are crazy.


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## FatBoyXPC (Jan 25, 2011)

JustinJ said:


> I feel that beginners aren't really able to determine what algs are good, even for them specifically, without more experience cubing. Better that they end up with a general alg that will work well for everyone than some specific one that they didn't realize was an alternative alg.


 
That's why I tell them one that flows well to suit their style. They won't know if it's particularly good, bad, or the most popular; but why will most certainly know what algorithm feels like it sucks and which one feels like it flows well. Admittedly, there are cases that it seems no matter which algorithm you try it seems to suck, but that's why I tell them to run through various algorithms multiple consecutive times, so that way they can get a feel for the algorithm before just ditching it on the first attempt.

I'm not saying that this is a means to justify having all of the "same alg but different execution notation" examples up. I think it'd be beneficial to clean it up. I think a pop up to show various forms of execution of the same algorithm (displaying the execution by changing the notation) would be just fine enough. This could be either a completely separate window (though probably sized down), or a lightbox.


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## Escher (Jan 26, 2011)

Sa967St said:


> Rowan Kinneavy does U2 like U2' with his left hand too, and his R perms (the algs with U2 twice) are crazy.



:3 
Yea lefty U2' doubleflick is seriously useful. Imma make some fingertrick videos soon (index finger pushes are the way forward)...


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## Anthony (Jan 26, 2011)

Escher said:


> :3
> Yea lefty U2' doubleflick is seriously useful. Imma make some fingertrick videos soon (index finger pushes are the way forward)...


 
It's past your bedtime, babe. Go U2' yourself to sleep. <3


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## DavidWoner (Jan 26, 2011)

cmhardw said:


> Having said that, I also think it's a bit strange how sometimes people who like a particular alg very much right handed will not use the reflection of that alg to left handed for the reflected case.



Do you really? I would think it's glaringly obvious that not everybody is ambidextrous.

And the solution to this is simple-
List the main alg, then have a little arrow button or something that, when clicked, displays the other fingertricks for that alg. Like

R U2 R' U2 R B' R' U' R U R B R2' U


Spoiler



R U2 R' U2 R B' R' U' R U l U R2 F
y2 z U R2 U' R2 U F' U' R' U R U F U2 R
y2 L U2 L' U2 L F' L' U' L U L F L2 U



This reduces the clutter, groups the algs, and we don't have to delete anything. (obviously instead of a giant spoiler button it would be something small on the same line in front of the original alg)

Like this but with algs:


Spoiler


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## amostay2004 (Jan 26, 2011)

Escher said:


> (index finger pushes are the way forward)...


 
I SEE WHAT YOU DID THERE


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## ~Adam~ (Jan 26, 2011)

I use the 3rd alg for Ra.

I tried to learn Full OLL and PLL as quickly as I could so I was looking for algs I could easily memorise.
The ones I don't like I'm slowly replacing but that one that I can sub 2 every time and wouldn't even think to change it.


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## FatBoyXPC (Jan 26, 2011)

I really like David Woner's idea.


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## Godmil (Jan 26, 2011)

I like David's idea too. Also it would be really good if people could somehow vote on which alg they use, to give an indication of popularity. If a newbie came to one of those pages and was confronted with 20 alg variations, but could see that 99% of people all used the same one, it would be a lot easier deciding what to learn.


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## rishidoshi (Jan 26, 2011)

Godmil said:


> I like David's idea too. Also it would be really good if people could somehow vote on which alg they use, to give an indication of popularity. If a newbie came to one of those pages and was confronted with 20 alg variations, but could see that 99% of people all used the same one, it would be a lot easier deciding what to learn.


 
yes. i vote for the vote system. i had mentioned this earlier at *this post*. 
Only top 2-3 voted algs should be displayed and rest should be dropdown-ed david style. that wud save space as joel pointed out. and since this is "wiki", it's (like) an encyclopedia. so algs SHUD NOT be deleted at all. keep on collecting and adding even if they r mirrors or variations. jst mention that this is variation of so and so alg. 
will take quite a bit of re-programming by wiki designers 

EDIT: If it is agreed by all, then along with the standard yellow squares, the pattern sketches shud also be displayed. This wud make the pll page a one-stop-shop for any visitor. (PLL pattern sketches are readily available on my blog. Can use them directly. Link mentioned in wiki page itself.)


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## Zarxrax (Jan 26, 2011)

Voting system seems silly.
How many people currently actually bother to edit anything on the wiki?
How many are going to log into it to put in a vote for which PLL they use?
The sample will probably be very small, and possibly not representative.


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## rishidoshi (Jan 26, 2011)

Zarxrax said:


> Voting system seems silly.
> How many people currently actually bother to edit anything on the wiki?
> How many are going to log into it to put in a vote for which PLL they use?
> The sample will probably be very small, and possibly not representative.


 
correct. we can put this as a disclaimer. And possibly only publish the results if number of votes are above, lets say, 500, or some such thick number. and many ppl do edit i guess. i once saw the 'recent changes' page and woah it was active.


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## Godmil (Jan 26, 2011)

I thought some threads could be started here with polls, one thread for each pll and the poll showed every alg in the database. The only problem is the shear number of threads... you'd need to only do one PLL a week or so to avoid spamming the forum.


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## JustinJ (Jan 26, 2011)

rishidoshi said:


> and since this is "wiki", it's (like) an encyclopedia. so algs SHUD NOT be deleted at all. keep on collecting and adding even if they r mirrors or variations.


 
I don't really understand this, I think the wiki should be a page that contains useful information, not horrible algs that no one in their right mind would ever use. There are certainly algs there that are not suitable for speedsolving, and I don't really see any need to keep them. If we're just going for volume of algs, why don't we just go and paste the output from a cube explorer run and get a few hundred?


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## StachuK1992 (Jan 26, 2011)

JustinJ said:


> why don't we just go and paste the output from a cube explorer run and get a few hundred?


 
or you could just use boca.


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## Godmil (Jan 26, 2011)

That is a good point Justin, the only problem is working out which ones are terrible. In your first post you suggested deleting an alg which is one that Breandan uses, so it's not always obvious which ones are fast.


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## DavidWoner (Jan 26, 2011)

Of course it can be difficult with some algs. But it's pretty obvious that nobody is using this 24 move Hperm: R' D' R D' B D B' D R' D' R U R' D R D' B D' B' D R' D R U or this 27 move E-perm U2 F R U R' U' F' U R U R' U' R' F R2 U' R' U' R U R2' F' R U R U' R' etc


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## TiLiMayor (Jan 26, 2011)

I think most of us know the optimal isn't the fastest, but still, some move count limit should be implemented.


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## Hiero (Jan 26, 2011)

I like the poll idea if there is an easy way to implement that kind of poll.


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