# Flipping!



## DennisStrehlau (Oct 13, 2008)

Hey guys, i like flipping Edges a lot.

I flipped 2 Edges on the 3x3 in 0.81 seconds! ( I will never beat that)
and I flipped 2 Edges on pyraminx in 0.71 seconds! ( I will beat that)

What are your Records for that?
And what else can we flip?
I am looking forward to YOUR TIMES AND RECORDS!

Greetings...Dennis


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## Athefre (Oct 13, 2008)

Which two edges?

Maybe we should flip this topic into the trash.


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## KConny (Oct 13, 2008)

I got 1.68 as my best.


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## fanwuq (Oct 13, 2008)

DennisStrehlau said:


> Hey guys, i like flipping Edges a lot.
> 
> I flipped 2 Edges on the 3x3 in 0.81 seconds! ( I will never beat that)
> and I flipped 2 Edges on pyraminx in 0.71 seconds! ( I will beat that)
> ...



If you just spent 0.81 seconds longer on your 29/30 multiBLD, you could have gotten 30/30.


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## Lucas Garron (Oct 13, 2008)

Athefre said:


> Which two edges?


Whichever you like!

I can barely get sub-2 for a 2-flip (probably doesn't help to be missing a stackmat); what's your alg?

Superflip takes me about 4 seconds

p2-flip: 1.31
p6-flip: Maybe later.


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## DennisStrehlau (Oct 13, 2008)

fanwuq said:


> DennisStrehlau said:
> 
> 
> > Hey guys, i like flipping Edges a lot.
> ...




HAHAHA
Well, but normally i do another alg when i do multi!

I JUST DID FLIPPING 2 EDGES ON PYRAMINX IN 0.68 SECONDS!

Greetings...Dennis


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## DennisStrehlau (Oct 13, 2008)

Lucas Garron said:


> Athefre said:
> 
> 
> > Which two edges?
> ...



i use :

M'UM'UM'UM'U2M'UM'UM'UM'

Greetings...Dennis


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## Dene (Oct 13, 2008)

Lol, my best time is like 3 seconds for a 2-flip.


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## DennisStrehlau (Oct 13, 2008)

Athefre said:


> Which two edges?
> 
> Maybe we should flip this topic into the trash.



Maybe we should flip you out of this topic!


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## Derrick Eide17 (Oct 13, 2008)

DennisStrehlau said:


> Athefre said:
> 
> 
> > Which two edges?
> ...



what dennis said!


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## Mike Hughey (Oct 13, 2008)

Dene said:


> Lol, my best time is like 3 seconds for a 2-flip.



You're really fast - I can't get sub-4. 

How about flipping edges on a megaminx?


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## Athefre (Oct 13, 2008)

DennisStrehlau said:


> Maybe we should flip you out of this topic!



Maybe.


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## shelley (Oct 13, 2008)

DennisStrehlau said:


> i use :
> 
> M'UM'UM'UM'U2M'UM'UM'UM'
> 
> Greetings...Dennis



Whoa, that's different. I use:

M U M U M U2 M' U M' U M' U2

Yours might be faster.


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## Sa967St (Oct 13, 2008)

I got 2.63 for M' U M' U M' U M' U2 M' U M' U M' U M'
it's a fun alg 

EDIT: new PB 1.98 YEAH


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## DennisStrehlau (Oct 13, 2008)

shelley said:


> DennisStrehlau said:
> 
> 
> > i use :
> ...



Yeah, thats what i use for multi

Greetings...Dennis


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## AvGalen (Oct 13, 2008)

Did anyone say flipping?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhCKVbiboBE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2iDklPbWHrM


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## DavidWoner (Oct 13, 2008)

wow dennis that is a great alg, I'll have to work on that one.

I suck at M-slicing, so my best 2-flip is 2.87, using shelley's alg.

however if we can disregard edge permutation, I can it in 1.06 using the RrU OLL alg.

my superflip(edit: i mean 4-flip) is 3.93, using M' U' M' U' M' U' M' U M' U' M' U' M' U' M' U, which is an alg i found myself, most likely non-optimal.


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## shelley (Oct 13, 2008)

That's not a superflip. That's a third of a superflip (12 edge flip).

My alg for the 4-flip is (M U)*4 (M' U)*4 
(direction of the U turns doesn't matter if you prefer U', as long as it's the same way)


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## JBCM627 (Oct 13, 2008)

Flipping 2 edges?

Time: 0.52s
Alg: FRUR'U'F'


@Vault, I use that alg for flipping 4 edges, just with the U's the other way (U -> U', U' -> U).


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## MistArts (Oct 13, 2008)

JBCM627 said:


> Flipping 2 edges?
> 
> Time: 0.52s
> Alg: FRUR'U'F'
> ...



That's cycling edges.


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## Lucas Garron (Oct 14, 2008)

MistArts said:


> JBCM627 said:
> 
> 
> > Flipping 2 edges?
> ...



U2 R U R2' F R F2' U F ?


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## MistArts (Oct 14, 2008)

Lucas Garron said:


> MistArts said:
> 
> 
> > JBCM627 said:
> ...



Cube explorer gives me:

U2 R U R2 F R F2 U F (9f*)
U2 B' U' B2 L' B' L2 U' L' (9f*)
F' U' F2 R' F' R2 U' R' U2 (9f*)
F' L2 D' L' D2 F' D' F2 L' (9f*)
L U L2 B L B2 U B U2 (9f*)
L F2 D F D2 L D L2 F (9f*)


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## Jai (Oct 14, 2008)

What do you guys use for the pyraminx 2-flip? I use R U' R' U R' L R L'.


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## Derrick Eide17 (Oct 14, 2008)

exactly what I use Jai


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## Dene (Oct 14, 2008)

Ok, I got a 2.20 for it, so I guess I'm better than I thought.


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## cmhardw (Oct 14, 2008)

shelley said:


> That's not a superflip. That's a third of a superflip (12 edge flip).
> 
> My alg for the 4-flip is (M U)*4 (M' U)*4
> (direction of the U turns doesn't matter if you prefer U', as long as it's the same way)



@ Shelley: Here's a short 4flipper I use. M' U M' U M' U M2 U' M' U' M' U' M'. It's the same idea as your alg, only I apply a nice cancellation ;-)

@Dennis I've never seen that 2 flip alg, I'll have to practice that!

--edit--
Just to be weird I timed my alg for flipping UF and FR.
2.21, 2.34, 2.52, (2.00), 2.39, 2.54, 2.37, 2.05, 2.31, 2.05, 2.13, (3.32) = 2.29

Chris


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## DennisStrehlau (Oct 14, 2008)

cmhardw said:


> shelley said:
> 
> 
> > That's not a superflip. That's a third of a superflip (12 edge flip).
> ...



Yes, its a really nice algorith.
well, maybe you will also like this 4 flip algorithm that i found. i am sure it already exsist, but anyway:

(M'UM'UM'UM'U') * 2

Greetings...Dennis


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## cmhardw (Oct 14, 2008)

DennisStrehlau said:


> Yes, its a really nice algorith.
> well, maybe you will also like this 4 flip algorithm that i found. i am sure it already exsist, but anyway:
> 
> (M'UM'UM'UM'U') * 2
> ...



Hi Dennis,

Yes the algorithm I listed is nearly the same thing as even this one you list. The idea behind your algorithm is to do (M'U)*4 then do a U2, then do (M'U)*4 again. This cancels down to your alg (M'UM'UM'UM'U') * 2

The alg I listed is the same idea. I do (M'U)*4 but instead of doing U2 I'm going to use the inverse of this alg, and also apply a 180 degree rotation. This makes it (U'M')*4. Put the two together to get M' U M' U M' U M' U U' M' U' M' U' M' U' M' with a really nice 3 move cancellation in the middle. This leaves the M' U M' U M' U M2 U' M' U' M' U' M'. I found this alg by experimenting with (UM')*4 which flips the order of the turns in the standard (M'U)*4.

Chris


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## AvGalen (Oct 14, 2008)

Am I correct in assuming that any (legal) position of the UB,UR,UF,UL,DB,DF edges is achievable with only MU turns?


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## cmhardw (Oct 14, 2008)

AvGalen said:


> Am I correct in assuming that any (legal) position of the UB,UR,UF,UL,DB,DF edges is achievable with only MU turns?



If you ignore the centers then yes. This is because you can do a 2-cycle by doing a U turn, then a MU edge 3-cycle alg. Use setup moves to cycle any particular pieces you want after this. If you count the centers, then I think it makes sense to think only about even permutations, unless you don't mind the U face offset by a turn. For even permutations you can use a MU 3-cycle alg, and setup moves to cycle any pieces you want to. Then use a MU flipper alg to flip the edges you want.

So I'd say yeah, it should be possible to generate all cases. It just depends if you want to include odd parity cases or not, or if you want to include the centers or not.

Chris


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## AvGalen (Oct 14, 2008)

cmhardw said:


> AvGalen said:
> 
> 
> > Am I correct in assuming that any (legal) position of the UB,UR,UF,UL,DB,DF edges is achievable with only MU turns?
> ...



I meant with centers intact. So basically:
* You take out the 6 edges
* You insert the first 4 edges completely randomly
* You insert the 5th edge so permutation is legal (meaning solvable with normal RUFLDB moves)
* You insert the 6th edge so orientation is legal (again meaning solvable with normal RUFLDB moves)

I think it will always be solvable wit MU moves. I don't understand why you said "unless you don't mind the U face offset by a turn" when a U move would obviously be allowed to fix that.

Also to Dennis: If you can do M'UM'UM'UM'U2M'UM'UM'UM' (15 turns in slice metric, 24 turns in QTM) in 0.81 seconds....


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## Kenneth (Oct 14, 2008)

4-flip: (M' U2 M) U2 (M' U M) U2 (M' U2 M) U'

Or using my "intuitive notation" P U2 O U2 P U' where P is a permutation and O is a orientation, the U2's are setup turns.


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## Jai (Oct 16, 2008)

That's the algo I use in 2H for the 4-Flip OLL, it's not that bad.


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## Kenneth (Oct 16, 2008)

Jai said:


> That's the algo I use in 2H for the 4-Flip OLL, it's not that bad.



If the permutation does not matter I suggest this variation:

M' U2 M' U2 M' U M U2 M U2 M

It is a little faster because the M turns goes in one direction at first and the other in the end.

For BLD, it does H-PLL and orientation.

Now you are learning ELL


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## cubeRemi (Oct 16, 2008)

I use:

M'U M'U M2 UM'UM'UM' U2 M'U 

my M moves are slow!! you can do U' aswel.. 

Remi


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## DennisStrehlau (Oct 16, 2008)

cubeRemi said:


> I use:
> 
> M'U M'U M2 UM'UM'UM' U2 M'U
> 
> ...



?!
why dont you do this alg if you do M and M' anyway:

M'UM'UM'U2MUMUMU2

Greetings...Dennis


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## cubeRemi (Oct 16, 2008)

DennisStrehlau said:


> cubeRemi said:
> 
> 
> > I use:
> ...




I don't like M moves but I do like M*' *moves 

M'U M'U M2 UM'UM'UM' U2 M'U = only M' + 1M2 move. 

Remi


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## cookingfat (Oct 18, 2008)

interesting thread. 

Just for fun, I tried to see how fast I can flip every edge and then flip them back again, I can get about 35 seconds (but I'm noob) someone fast try this and tell me how fast you are.


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## Ville Seppänen (Oct 18, 2008)

cookingfat said:


> interesting thread.
> 
> Just for fun, I tried to see how fast I can flip every edge and then flip them back again, I can get about 35 seconds (but I'm noob) someone fast try this and tell me how fast you are.



9.81. I keep locking up, should be faster. Of course, I used superflip alg


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## cookingfat (Oct 18, 2008)

what's the superflip alg? 

I was doing M'U'M'U'M'U'M' U M'U'M'U'M'U'M'U then x2 then repeat, then z and M'UM'UM'UM' U2 M'UM'UM'UM' x2 and repeat to get the superflip. then I just did it again to undo.


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## Ville Seppänen (Oct 18, 2008)

((M' U')*4 y' x')*3 I think that's the best alg for it (optimal is 20 moves HTM ).


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## Sa967St (Oct 18, 2008)

Ville Seppänen said:


> ((M' U')*4 y' x')*3



and ((M'U)*4 yx')*3 if you prefer M'U over M'U'


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## siva.shanmukh (Oct 21, 2008)

This is in no way about increasing speed, reducing move count or anything like that. But this is an interesting puzzling problem.

I lately found that an adjacent edge flip on a solved cube can be solved by using only 3-cycle edges(U PLL) and cube rotations. I jus want to know what is the least number of 3-cycles used to do this. I didn't count mine but am sure i did it in the most crude way.


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## Ville Seppänen (Oct 21, 2008)

first try: 11
this is fun  I'm sure this is not the best.


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## Derrick Eide17 (Oct 21, 2008)

siva.shanmukh said:


> This is in no way about increasing speed, reducing move count or anything like that. But this is an interesting puzzling problem.
> 
> I lately found that an adjacent edge flip on a solved cube can be solved by using only 3-cycle edges(U PLL) and cube rotations. I jus want to know what is the least number of 3-cycles used to do this. I didn't count mine but am sure i did it in the most crude way.



R U' R' U R2 U2 r' R' U' R U r U2 R2


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## Ville Seppänen (Oct 21, 2008)

Derrick Eide17 said:


> siva.shanmukh said:
> 
> 
> > This is in no way about increasing speed, reducing move count or anything like that. But this is an interesting puzzling problem.
> ...



that's not really 3-cycling  but while we're at it: R' U2 R2 U R' U' R' U2 r U R U' r'


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## Derrick Eide17 (Oct 21, 2008)

Ville Seppänen said:


> Derrick Eide17 said:
> 
> 
> > siva.shanmukh said:
> ...



Yes, I know its not 3 cycling, I was just proving him wrong that it can be done without


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## Ville Seppänen (Oct 21, 2008)

Hmm... I think what siva said can be understood in 2 ways. You understood it like there's no other possible way to flip them except U-PLL's and rotations. I understood it like it is possible to flip them using only U-PLL's and rotations, although it is not necessary.


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## Derrick Eide17 (Oct 21, 2008)

Ville Seppänen said:


> Hmm... I think what siva said can be understood in 2 ways. You understood it like there's no other possible way to flip them except U-PLL's and rotations. I understood it like it is possible to flip them using only U-PLL's and rotations, although it is not necessary.



 

Message = Too Short.


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## siva.shanmukh (Oct 22, 2008)

I wanted you to think the way Ville Seppänen thought. I don't say its not possible. But its interesting to restrict one self only two kinds of moves and yet be able to solve it. It essentially proves that all edges in a cube can be solved jus using cube rotations and u perms if the scramble is an even move scramble(quarter turn metric)


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## MistArts (Oct 22, 2008)

siva.shanmukh said:


> I wanted you to think the way Ville Seppänen thought. I don't say its not possible. But its interesting to restrict one self only two kinds of moves and yet be able to solve it. It essentially proves that all edges in a cube can be solved jus using cube rotations and u perms if the scramble is an even move scramble(quarter turn metric)



Like U F U' R U' R' U F' ?


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## siva.shanmukh (Oct 23, 2008)

No No No. It essential what happens when you do R U' R' U R2 U2 r' R' U' R U r U2 R2. After you do the alg above on a solved cube, you will end up flipping 2 adjacent edges. The challenge is as follows.
You have to solve the cube from here but you are restiricted on use of moves. You can only use cube rotations and U perms as the basic moves but not the RLUDFB moves.


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## joey (Oct 23, 2008)

6 U-perms.


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## Stefan (Oct 23, 2008)

Yeah, joey, but not prove that optimal.


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## joey (Oct 23, 2008)

StefanPochmann said:


> Yeah, joey, but not prove that optimal.



Did you mean I should now prove that it is optimal?

[pochmann-style]I won't. First you prove that it isn't optimal.[/pochmann-style]


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## cmhardw (Oct 23, 2008)

joey said:


> StefanPochmann said:
> 
> 
> > Yeah, joey, but not prove that optimal.
> ...



Haha this looks to me like mathematics' version of the game "chicken" ;-)

Chris


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## siva.shanmukh (Oct 24, 2008)

WoW!! Only 6?? How did you manage to do it, can you write your solution here.. In no way am I able to solve it in 6 U perms. I am taking many more.

And is it possible to mathematically arrive at this number? Or prove that this is the least possible number?


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## joey (Oct 24, 2008)

siva.shanmukh said:


> WoW!! Only 6?? How did you manage to do it, can you write your solution here.. In no way am I able to solve it in 6 U perms. I am taking many more.


Not for now, maybe later.



siva.shanmukh said:


> And is it possible to mathematically arrive at this number??


Yes.
1 2 3 4 5 *6*


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## siva.shanmukh (Oct 24, 2008)

joey said:


> Yes.
> 1 2 3 4 5 *6*



I meant to ask if it is possible to mathematically find that 6 is the least number of moves to achieve this.


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## Lucas Garron (Oct 24, 2008)

siva.shanmukh said:


> joey said:
> 
> 
> > Yes.
> ...


Well, yes. You find a solution with length 6 (not too difficult), and show that there are no shorter ones (slightly harder). There are a few ways to do this, like brute force checking. 

But while we're at it...
An edge requires 3 U-perms to flip. I think we can extend this to 4 and 5 for this problem, by showing that you can't return every edge home while performing this flipping. I can't of something that'll easily prove 6, though, right now...


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## siva.shanmukh (Oct 24, 2012)

joey said:


> Not for now, maybe later.



Now? Please. I am still not able to do it.


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