# Challenge: scramble and solve using only double moves



## PedroSabioni (Dec 8, 2013)

Has anyone ever tried this? Use only moves like U2, M2, R2, Rw2 to scramble and solve the cube.


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## Dapianokid (Dec 8, 2013)

This severely limits the group of states you can solve/scramble to. Adding M2 to the mix is just like doing R2 L2...

You can't misorient the corners or edges, and the permutational possibilities are extremely limited.


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## Ollie (Dec 8, 2013)

Breandan Vallance challenged some of us to scramble and solve using only Uw and M, tis pretty fun. Got a decent method for it as well x)


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## PedroSabioni (Dec 8, 2013)

Dapianokid said:


> This severely limits the group of states you can solve/scramble to. Adding M2 to the mix is just like doing R2 L2...
> 
> You can't misorient the corners or edges, and the permutational possibilities are extremely limited.



Yeah, for sure, but there still is a lot of possible combinations and it is pretty difficult to solve! I haven't succeeded yet


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## Kirjava (Dec 8, 2013)

As far as restricted movegroup solving goes, this is very easy.

Try <U,r>


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## Tim Major (Dec 8, 2013)

Pretty sure a good Roux solver would average very fast with this. I can consistently sub 10 with CFOP for this, but Roux is more suited to this subset.

<M,Uw> was posted in random discussion thread ages ago. That's a more fun one.


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## stoic (Dec 8, 2013)

Kirjava said:


> As far as restricted movegroup solving goes, this is very easy.
> 
> Try <U,r>





Spoiler



http://www.speedsolving.com/forum/s...pt-Idea-Thread&p=848083&viewfull=1#post848083


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## Stefan (Dec 9, 2013)

Tim Major said:


> Pretty sure a good Roux solver would average very fast with this. I can consistently sub 10 with CFOP for this, but Roux is more suited to this subset.



Which one do you mean? I suspect Kirjava's and that you're thinking r=M instead of r=Rw which he probably meant.


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## Tim Major (Dec 9, 2013)

Stefan said:


> Which one do you mean? I suspect Kirjava's and that you're thinking r=M instead of r=Rw which he probably meant.



OP's subset. Why would you suspect Kirjava's? I didn't quote his, so wouldn't you assume OP?


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## Kirjava (Dec 9, 2013)

I don't see why 'Roux' is more suited to that subset, I don't use either method when solving like that.


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## Stefan (Dec 9, 2013)

Tim Major said:


> OP's subset. Why would you suspect Kirjava's? I didn't quote his, so wouldn't you assume OP?



Because for the OP's subset (double moves) I don't see how you would do CFOP at all, let alone average sub10 with it, and because I don't see the connection to Roux. Are you just doing <U2, M2, R2, Rw2> or are you really doing his _"double moves [...] like U2, M2, R2, Rw2"_?

Edit: Ok you can't possibly mean <U2, M2, R2, Rw2>, as I just tried that and had trouble scrambling at all 

Can you describe your CFOP method and why you think Roux is better for it?


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## PedroSabioni (Dec 9, 2013)

And no one is actually trying to solve the cube the way I proposed 
Scrambled, it should look something like the forum's logo: http://www.speedsolving.com/forum/images/ss-logo1.png


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## Stefan (Dec 9, 2013)

PedroSabioni said:


> And no one is actually trying to solve the cube the way I proposed



1. Tim is no one?
2. This is old stuff, so people might just not want to do it again. If qqtimer has a scrambler for it, you may assume it has been done already.


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## Tim Major (Dec 9, 2013)

I misread entirely. Trying double turns now. It's much harder. I managed to solve it but not fast at all.


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## PedroSabioni (Dec 9, 2013)

Tim Major said:


> I misread entirely. Trying double turns now. It's much harder. I managed to solve it but not fast at all.


Yeah, I was like "how is he applying CFOP and Roux concepts to this?"


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## Stefan (Dec 9, 2013)

Tim Major said:


> I misread entirely.



What did you read?


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## Tim Major (Dec 9, 2013)

Stefan said:


> What did you read?



First I read it as <R,M,Rw,U> hence my Roux suggestion. I only skimmed.

Then I skimmed your post and thought <R2,U2,M2,Rw2> but quickly realised this could NOT be the case (impossible to get over 5 seconds with these without trying to)

Finally, I reread your post properly this time and understood.

Moral of the story, don't skim read when tired.


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## Kirjava (Dec 9, 2013)

PedroSabioni said:


> And no one is actually trying to solve the cube the way I proposed



People have been doing it for ages.

Just did an avg5 for you though - (9.96), (6.02), 9.85, 7.07, 7.85 = 8.26 avg5


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## Tim Major (Dec 9, 2013)

I'm doing Corners first with all double turns. So far I have gotten a couple of smooth sub 10s but I'm averaging 30+. When I get to spam R2 U2 R2 and M2 U2 M2 it's easy enough, but sometimes I get to L4E and they're all in bad places. What are you doing Kir? Editing to say I just quit on a solve. Was going for over 2 minutes with bad cases and I simply didn't manage. This is hard, and doing corners first seems very luck based. I tried doing an average. 9.36, 26.35, DNF, 7.54, DNF. This is hard O_O


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## PedroSabioni (Dec 9, 2013)

Kirjava said:


> People have been doing it for ages.
> 
> Just did an avg5 for you though - (9.96), (6.02), 9.85, 7.07, 7.85 = 8.26 avg5



Is there a name for it? What are the solving steps?


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## Kirjava (Dec 9, 2013)

Step 1: Solve as much as you can
Step 2: Solve the rest

I generally try to make a block of some kind then get most edges in the right places while solving corners

every solve is different though, you just do whatever is best for the scramble

learn stuff like F2R2U2R2F2R2U2R2 because you need it

scramble: B2 U2 R2 U2 D2 R2 U2 D2 F2 R2 F2 R2 D2 U2 B2 U2 R2 B2 F2 U2 B2 F2 U2 D2 R2

step 1: L2 U2 R2 F2 R2 U2 R2
step 2: U2 B2 y (U2 F2 L2 F2 U2 L2 U2 F2 L2 D2 B2 D2) R2 U2 

I practised this a bit when I was doing threeduction

EDIT: moar?

scramble: B2 D2 L2 R2 U2 R2 F2 R2 B2 L2 F2 R2 L2 B2 U2 F2 R2 F2 D2 F2 L2 B2 F2 R2 F2 

step 1: R2 F2 R2
step 2: yx' F2 R2 U2 R2 F2 R2 U2 R2 y F2 M2 F2 U2 M2 U2

scramble: U2 D2 F2 R2 L2 B2 D2 L2 D2 U2 B2 R2 B2 L2 R2 B2 L2 F2 R2 U2 F2 D2 L2 U2 R2

step 1: L2 F2 R2 S2 R2 U2 R2 u2
step 2: x'y' F2 R2 U2 R2 F2 R2 U2 R2

scramble: B2 D2 U2 R2 B2 F2 D2 F2 D2 U2 B2 D2 B2 F2 L2 R2 B2 L2 F2 R2 U2 L2 R2 B2 R2 

step 1: L2 B2 d2
step 2: R2 B2 R2 B2 R2 B2 R2 E2 R2 E2

scramble: B2 R2 B2 D2 U2 R2 D2 L2 U2 B2 L2 U2 D2 F2 D2 R2 B2 D2 R2 B2 R2 L2 B2 F2 L2 

step 1: E2 B2 x
step 2: U2 F2 L2 F2 U2 L2 U2 F2 L2 D2 B2 D2 x2 F2 R2 U2 R2 F2 R2 U2 R2

hopefully this shows you you need to just take advantage of the state the cube is in


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## Stefan (Dec 9, 2013)

Average of 12: 13.13
1. 13.75 D2 U2 R2 F2 U2 D2 F2 R2 L2 U2 D2 L2 R2 D2 F2 D2 F2 B2 U2 D2 L2 F2 R2 F2 B2 
2. (4.77) D2 R2 D2 R2 U2 D2 R2 L2 U2 F2 R2 B2 F2 L2 D2 R2 U2 D2 R2 F2 D2 L2 R2 U2 F2 
3. 9.20 L2 B2 D2 F2 B2 D2 F2 U2 D2 R2 F2 R2 U2 R2 D2 U2 R2 D2 B2 R2 U2 F2 B2 D2 F2 
4. 22.59 D2 L2 B2 L2 U2 D2 F2 R2 L2 F2 D2 R2 L2 D2 R2 U2 D2 L2 B2 U2 F2 B2 R2 B2 R2 
5. 15.69 L2 D2 B2 D2 U2 F2 R2 F2 B2 D2 B2 R2 L2 B2 F2 U2 D2 F2 L2 F2 U2 F2 R2 B2 L2 
6. 15.47 F2 U2 F2 U2 B2 L2 U2 D2 F2 L2 B2 U2 B2 R2 L2 F2 U2 F2 D2 B2 D2 L2 F2 U2 D2 
7. 14.92 F2 R2 U2 L2 D2 R2 U2 B2 U2 L2 B2 D2 L2 B2 U2 R2 D2 L2 B2 D2 U2 R2 D2 R2 D2 
8. (22.98) B2 L2 B2 D2 L2 U2 R2 D2 F2 L2 B2 F2 L2 F2 R2 B2 R2 F2 B2 L2 B2 R2 L2 U2 B2 
9. 10.72 B2 L2 R2 U2 R2 L2 B2 R2 B2 D2 F2 L2 U2 L2 R2 U2 R2 B2 F2 U2 F2 R2 L2 U2 F2 
10. 11.72 R2 L2 B2 L2 U2 F2 D2 R2 U2 R2 B2 R2 F2 D2 R2 F2 B2 R2 U2 L2 B2 D2 R2 U2 F2 
11. 11.48 B2 U2 F2 B2 D2 U2 F2 B2 R2 L2 F2 R2 L2 D2 L2 F2 U2 B2 F2 R2 U2 F2 L2 R2 D2 
12. 5.74 L2 B2 L2 U2 R2 B2 L2 U2 F2 B2 L2 D2 R2 F2 R2 L2 F2 D2 F2 L2 B2 D2 B2 U2 R2


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## PedroSabioni (Dec 9, 2013)

Kirjava said:


> Step 1: Solve as much as you can
> Step 2: Solve the rest
> 
> I generally try to make a block of some kind then get most edges in the right places while solving corners
> ...



Thanks, man! I've already succeeded a couple of times


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## guysensei1 (Dec 9, 2013)

How do you solve the H-Perm with only double moves?


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## Kirjava (Dec 9, 2013)

[B2 L2 D2: R2 F2 R2 F2 R2 F2]

long form B2 L2 D2 R2 F2 R2 F2 R2 F2 D2 L2 B2


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## elrog (Dec 9, 2013)

I came up with the idea of a method that reduces to this subset only to find that it already existed. It is quite fun, but isn't very practical. It is called HTA which is short for Human Thistlethwaite Algorithm which can be found on Ryan Heise's cubing page here: http://www.ryanheise.com/cube/human_thistlethwaite_algorithm.html


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## qqwref (Dec 9, 2013)

I, and a few others, tried this back in 2008: http://mzrg.com/auwr/recs_halfturns_avg10.html

The method was pretty much intuitive 2x2x3 block -> solve the rest.


EDIT: Just tried this again and after some rolling got this nice avg12:
5.63, 5.43, 4.21, 5.80, 5.93, (12.07), 4.87, 9.26, (4.13), 7.16, 4.53, 4.99 => 5.78 (σ = 1.48)


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## Zeotor (Dec 9, 2013)

SuperAntoniovivaldi on YouTube has made videos about this with a few NxNxN puzzles.
- 3x3x3
- 3x3x3 supercube
- 4x4x4
- 4x4x4 supercube
(All of the above can be found in this playlist.)
- 5x5x5
- 5x5x5 supercube


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## TDM (Dec 9, 2013)

Tim Major said:


> I'm doing Corners first with all double turns. So far I have gotten a couple of smooth sub 10s but I'm averaging 30+. When I get to spam R2 U2 R2 and M2 U2 M2 it's easy enough, but sometimes I get to L4E and they're all in bad places. What are you doing Kir? Editing to say I just quit on a solve. Was going for over 2 minutes with bad cases and I simply didn't manage. This is hard, and doing corners first seems very luck based. I tried doing an average. 9.36, 26.35, DNF, 7.54, DNF. This is hard O_O


I did this a while ago, and I also did corners first. I found (R2' F2 R2 U2')2 did a 3-cycle equivalent to U2 M' U2 M, and that helped a lot. I still hate H perms though.


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## stoic (Dec 9, 2013)

52.44 avg5 with a lolscramble 7.53
Corners first


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## Renslay (Dec 9, 2013)

Years ago I came up with this challenge:

1) Scramble the cube with double turns.
2) Apply a single quater turn.
3) Scramble the cube with double turns again.

Solve it in a way that you can apply only one quater turn.

It shouldn't be too hard, but I found it quite fun.


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## elrog (Dec 9, 2013)

I do something similar with my 4x4. First, I scramble it like a 2x2, then do a single outer layer turn, scramble like a 2x2 again, and finally solve using 1 outer layer turn.


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