# Should Rubik's brand cubes be prohibited for BLD?



## Chuck (Dec 2, 2009)

Hi all,

Few days ago, a new Indonesian cuber named Sandy Ardianto was asking a question on Indonesian online speedcubing forum:

_"Ada yg tau yg jual centercaps Rubiks ga? Yg ada tulisan rubiknya, lumayan buat bld wkt M2, bisa tau lg shooting genap ato ganjil.. hehe.."_

He asked where he can buy a Rubik's center cap which have Rubik's marking on it. Why? Because he thought that it would help him to know odd-even condition for M slice's edges when he was doing BLD using M2!!! :fp

Of course other members got mad at him and told him that it's cheating and illegal. But this made us realized that Rubik's brand cube are not comply with these WCA Regulation article:

3j) Puzzles must be clean and *must not have any textures, markings,* elevated pieces, damages, or other differences that *distinguish one piece from a similar piece.*

3m) All puzzle and sticker brands are allowed, *as long as the puzzles comply with the other WCA regulations.*

So, to prevent a BLD competitor get benefit from it, should Rubik's brand cubes be prohibited for BLD? :confused:


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## miniGOINGS (Dec 2, 2009)

Chuck said:


> So, to prevent a BLD competitor get benefit from it, should Rubik's brand cubes be prohibited for BLD? :confused:



Cubesmith and Cube4You stickers also have stickers that can show direction.


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## yoruichi (Dec 2, 2009)

anyone who uses feeling the center cap to determine if he is m2 clearly would not know what he/she is doing and so would not get a good time so aint matta


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## Chuck (Dec 2, 2009)

yoruichi said:


> anyone who uses feeling the center cap to determine if he is m2 clearly would not know what he/she is doing and so would not get a good time so aint matta




Yes, I'm very agree with you.

But it's still very disturbing to know that there is a cube brand that doesn't comply with WCA Regulation, and it's RUBIK'S.


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## Edward (Dec 2, 2009)

Chuck said:


> yoruichi said:
> 
> 
> > anyone who uses feeling the center cap to determine if he is m2 clearly would not know what he/she is doing and so would not get a good time so aint matta
> ...



Well wouldn't ALL cubes with logo's be illegal? I don't really understand your post.


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## Weston (Dec 2, 2009)

Edward said:


> Chuck said:
> 
> 
> > yoruichi said:
> ...



Nope. In one of the Rubik's brand center pieces, there is an indended picture of the Rubik's logo.


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## miniGOINGS (Dec 2, 2009)

Weston said:


> In one of the Rubik's brand center pieces, there is an intended picture of the Rubik's logo.



Oh, nevermind, that makes more sense then.


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## aronpm (Dec 2, 2009)

"3l)	Cube puzzles must have at most one logo. For Rubik's Cube or bigger cube puzzles the logo must be placed on one of the centre pieces."

Having a logo is not a problem, but if the centre cap with the logo on it feels physically different, it's illegal. Does the centre cap have indents under the sticker?


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## Weston (Dec 2, 2009)

aronpm said:


> "3l)	Cube puzzles must have at most one logo. For Rubik's Cube or bigger cube puzzles the logo must be placed on one of the centre pieces."
> 
> Having a logo is not a problem, but if the centre cap with the logo on it feels physically different, it's illegal. Does the centre cap have indents under the sticker?



Yes. Using tiles would solve this problem though.


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## Hyprul 9-ty2 (Dec 2, 2009)

Really? That sucks.
Even my A3 and C4Y DIY have logo-imprinted caps. Oddly enough, I can't feel them ._. I'm using normal stickers


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## mcciff2112 (Dec 2, 2009)

The C4Y speedcubes have an indented logo in one of the center caps as well.

Edit: Hyprul9-ty2 beat me to it..


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## Tim Major (Dec 2, 2009)

Hyprul 9-ty2 said:


> Really? That sucks.
> Even my A3 and C4Y DIY have logo-imprinted caps. Oddly enough, I can't feel them ._. I'm using normal stickers



They normally come with 7 centre caps. Only one has the marking.


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## adimare (Dec 2, 2009)

ZB_FTW!!! said:


> Hyprul 9-ty2 said:
> 
> 
> > Really? That sucks.
> ...



I've ordered over 10 c4u DIY's and all of them have come with only 6 caps.


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## qazefth (Dec 2, 2009)

Yeah, I only got 6 caps. And I can feel the logo. :S


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## Muesli (Dec 2, 2009)

Makes me wonder if having no stickers on the white side of a white-cube would still be useable.


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## Zava (Dec 2, 2009)

Musli4brekkies said:


> Makes me wonder if having no stickers on the white side of a white-cube would still be useable.



no, they made us sticker the white side on our white 7x7 at worlds, after the first solve...


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## DavidWoner (Dec 2, 2009)

Zava said:


> Musli4brekkies said:
> 
> 
> > Makes me wonder if having no stickers on the white side of a white-cube would still be useable.
> ...



3e)	Twisty puzzles must either have coloured stickers or coloured tiles.


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## driftboy_wen (Dec 2, 2009)

i suggest we should make the judge aware of the puzzle that someone use for BLD, so the scramble judges test the puzzle, if the puzzle have "defect", so the scramble judge can tell the judges that stand beside the competitor that the puzzle have a mark or whatever, and be sure to look if there's any suspicious movement from the competitor =)


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## Chuck (Dec 2, 2009)

So, it still remain a question. :confused:

Should those cubes be prohibited?
Or maybe some changes on the WCA articles?


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## TioMario (Dec 2, 2009)

What's the deal of having a different looking piece if you are blindfolded?.
If it feels differently when you touch it, that's another story.


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## LewisJ (Dec 2, 2009)

TioMario said:


> What's the deal of having a different looking piece if you are blindfolded?.
> If it feels differently when you touch it, that's another story.



The deal isn't different looking, it's different feeling. Most rubik's brand cubes have an indentation in the center cap that says Rubik's and it is definitely feelable if you dont have either thick stickers or tiles. A lot of other cubes have such indentations as well.


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## Chuck (Dec 2, 2009)

TioMario said:


> What's the deal of having a different looking piece if you are blindfolded? If it feels differently when you touch it, that's another story.




Did you read any of the post above you?
Yes, it feels differently.


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## hr.mohr (Dec 2, 2009)

The regulations are very clear on this subject. If you can distinguish a cubie/face by feel then the cube are invalid for BLD. End of discussion.

This rule actually applies to all puzzles and all events, not just BLD.


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## oskarasbrink (Dec 2, 2009)

well, if rubiks brands arent allowed... and like every puzzle you buy now has tiles or logos on the centercap, kind of tough to say that they're not allowed


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## Hyprul 9-ty2 (Dec 2, 2009)

Yes, but in that case, everyone would either be forced to find caps without any logos, or get tiles.

And to clarify, the new A3 comes with extra caps. Not the C4Y.


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## Zarxrax (Dec 2, 2009)

I think it would be reasonable to modify the rules to state that it's ok for one center piece to have some sort of logo indention on a single center cap. As long as there is a fair playing field, so anyone can choose to have that kind of center cap if they wish, then I don't see where the problem would be.


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## Chuck (Dec 4, 2009)

driftboy_wen said:


> i suggest we should make the judge aware of the puzzle that someone use for BLD, so the scramble judges test the puzzle, if the puzzle have "defect", so the scramble judge can tell the judges that stand beside the competitor that the puzzle have a mark or whatever, and be sure to look if there's any suspicious movement from the competitor =)




I guess ^ is the answer.


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## Tim Major (Dec 4, 2009)

DavidWoner said:


> Zava said:
> 
> 
> > Musli4brekkies said:
> ...



Wait what? Diansheng's out of the box are illegal? I don't think they are. I guess they didn't think of painted cubes at the time.


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## mazei (Dec 4, 2009)

My stickers on my A2 kinda shrink wrapped itself on the center cap and made the logo 'feelable'. I guess this ain't a BLD cube anymore.


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## Micael (Dec 4, 2009)

hr.mohr said:


> The regulations are very clear on this subject. If you can distinguish a cubie/face by feel then the cube are invalid for BLD. End of discussion.
> 
> This rule actually applies to all puzzles and all events, not just BLD.



I agreee with you. The way I understand the regulation is that such a cube is ALREADY prohibited for bld.


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## Zane_C (Dec 4, 2009)

So, referring to the WCA regulations, all the stickers must be just one color, does that mean your not allowed to have a little logo on a sticker?


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## aronpm (Dec 4, 2009)

@Zane_C:


> 3d)	The colours of puzzles must be solid, the same per colour, and clearly distinct from other colours..
> 3l)	Cube puzzles must have at most one logo. For Rubik's Cube or bigger cube puzzles the logo must be placed on one of the centre pieces.


As long as the logo is on a centre sticker (or any sticker for 2x2x2), and there are no other logos, it is fine.


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## Zane_C (Dec 4, 2009)

Thank's, 
well back to topic, I don't believe rubik's brand cubes should be banned for BLD


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## Bryan (Dec 4, 2009)

You realize that technically, many cubes could be disqualified. Tiled Meffert's 4x4's have multiple logos. Some DIY's have slight indentations on edges....


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## cubestack (Dec 4, 2009)

A lot of cubes have such markings that can be felt. By banning Rubik's brand cubes for this event, you would spark another debate on banning various other models of this puzzle. I do not think there is a need for any decent blindfold solver to have a need to feel the centers to determine anything as he would be faster without that trouble, regardless of whether the person is at 1,2 or10 mins a solve. I do not believe a ban should be imposed.


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## Tim Reynolds (Dec 4, 2009)

What happens if a center cap falls out during BLD? The solver who knows which cap fell out can use that as a check for orientation, but center caps (being non-functional pieces) don't need to be replaced if they fall out.

What if someone intentionally pulls out a center cap at the beginning of the solve? It's the same effect as having a marking (like the Rubik's brand), but easier to feel, and seems to be legal.


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## Zarxrax (Dec 4, 2009)

aronpm said:


> @Zane_C:
> 
> 
> > 3d)	The colours of puzzles must be solid, the same per colour, and clearly distinct from other colours..
> ...



Hmm, well even if the logo is something that you can feel, it's still a logo, right? So wouldn't this mean that technically, it's ok for that sort of thing to be on 1 piece?


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## hawkmp4 (Dec 4, 2009)

This whole thread is frustrating. 
One logo is allowed. However, whether it's a logo or not, if you can feel it and use it to distinguish one piece from another, IT'S NOT ALLOWED.
End of story.


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## brunson (Dec 4, 2009)

Tim Reynolds said:


> What happens if a center cap falls out during BLD? The solver who knows which cap fell out can use that as a check for orientation, but center caps (being non-functional pieces) don't need to be replaced if they fall out.
> 
> What if someone intentionally pulls out a center cap at the beginning of the solve? It's the same effect as having a marking (like the Rubik's brand), but easier to feel, and seems to be legal.


I imagine the cube would be deemed in violation of the rules and the solve would be disqualified. If the competitor replaced the cap before proceeding with the solve, it would probably be allowed.


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## capoboy (Dec 5, 2009)

I don't think it matters since when you are solving the cube, you can't see anything. Even though there's the logo on the cube, it doesn't matter. It can't show any directions since, again, you can't see the cube when it's moving.


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## daniel0731ex (Dec 5, 2009)

if it has to have either stickers or tiles, what about Dazzler with modified corner?


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## Tomk (Dec 5, 2009)

Zarxrax said:


> I think it would be reasonable to modify the rules to state that it's ok for one center piece to have some sort of logo indention on a single center cap. As long as there is a fair playing field, so anyone can choose to have that kind of center cap if they wish, then I don't see where the problem would be.



But a blindfold solve is meant to be that you memorise first, doesn't having something you can feel have the same effect as letting the judge tell you, "oh that stickers white BTW"?


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## Chuck (Dec 6, 2009)

This discussion are going nowhere.

It only raises more and more questions from non-BLD solver. :fp

One thing for sure, the WCA Board are too busy to respond to this thread.


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## Muesli (Dec 6, 2009)

Tomk said:


> Zarxrax said:
> 
> 
> > I think it would be reasonable to modify the rules to state that it's ok for one center piece to have some sort of logo indention on a single center cap. As long as there is a fair playing field, so anyone can choose to have that kind of center cap if they wish, then I don't see where the problem would be.
> ...


You should be able to keep your cube orientated if you are doing BLD solves. One centre cap shouldn't really make that much difference. Also, if you _need_ a cap to tell you what colour a side is it's not like you're going to win any competitions.


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## hr.mohr (Dec 6, 2009)

Chuck said:


> This discussion are going nowhere.
> 
> It only raises more and more questions from non-BLD solver. :fp
> 
> One thing for sure, the WCA Board are too busy to respond to this thread.



I fail to see how this raises any questions at all. The rules are VERY clear and I suggest that you read them again.

Also, Dianshengs with only painted faces are not allowed for competition under the current regulations.

I do not speak for the board, I'm a delegate, but the regulations really speak for themselves on this subject.


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## Chuck (Dec 7, 2009)

hr.mohr said:


> I fail to see how this raises any questions at all. The rules are VERY clear and I suggest that you read them again. I do not speak for the board, I'm a delegate, but the regulations really speak for themselves on this subject.




:fp
You fail to see that I DO NOT have any problem in understanding WCA Regulation.



hr.mohr said:


> The regulations are very clear on this subject. If you can distinguish a cubie/face by feel then the cube are invalid for BLD. End of discussion. This rule actually applies to all puzzles and all events, not just BLD.




Yes, the regulation is VERY CLEAR on its own _(de jure)_. But how about in reality _(de facto)_? MANY people uses puzzles with markings/indented logo for official competitions, including myself.

As a delegate, did you ever prohibited any competitor who bring indented puzzle to the competition?

What's the point of the regulation if many people are ignoring it?

THAT is the discussion and it's still far from end.


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## Mike Hughey (Dec 7, 2009)

I agree with Chuck. If you interpret the rules very strictly, a very large percentage of BLD solves (and regular solves, for that matter) were done on illegal cubes. Fortunately, except for multi (where I have many stickered cubes), all of my 3x3x3 BLD solves were done on cubes with tiles.

I think it's pretty silly, though. I think we should change the rules to clearly allow this case, since it's clear it doesn't give any significant advantage. As we get bigger as an organization, we need to refine our rules to become as precise as possible. At least, that's my opinion. If we just make it clear that rules 3j and 3l go together (making it clear that a logo is okay even if it's raised and can be felt), then the rules will clearly allow an ordinary storebought Rubik's, and there will be no problem.

Chuck, have you started a thread on the WCA forum about this? I don't check that forum as often as I probably should, so I haven't looked in a while. Truth is, the WCA doesn't have a responsibility to look for stuff like this on this forum - if you're really concerned about it, you should probably bring it up there instead. That's really the proper place for a discussion like this, not this forum.


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## cmhardw (Dec 7, 2009)

Mike Hughey said:


> Chuck, have you started a thread on the WCA forum about this?



I already did

Chris


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## ~Phoenix Death~ (Dec 7, 2009)

aronpm said:


> "3l)	Cube puzzles must have at most one logo. For Rubik's Cube or bigger cube puzzles the logo must be placed on one of the centre pieces."
> 
> Having a logo is not a problem, but if the centre cap with the logo on it feels physically different, it's illegal. Does the centre cap have indents under the sticker?



How about giant air bubbles?


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## Chuck (Dec 7, 2009)

Mike Hughey said:


> Truth is, the WCA doesn't have a responsibility to look for stuff like this on this forum - if you're really concerned about it, you should probably bring it up there instead. That's really the proper place for a discussion like this, not this forum.




Ah, I didn't think of that.  I'm really sorry.

Chris, thank you.



Mike Hughey said:


> If we just make it clear that rules 3j and 3l go together (making it clear that a logo is okay even if it's raised and can be felt), then the rules will clearly allow an ordinary storebought Rubik's, and there will be no problem.




I agree with this too.
Thank you, Mike.


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