# Sticker orientation WCA petition rule change



## CubeWizard23 (Jul 15, 2015)

I have a black side instead of white because of this my cube gets scrambled upside down (yellow green, not white [black] green) i think it should be changed to white/black as default U side just a thought...


----------



## supercavitation (Jul 15, 2015)

CubeWizard23 said:


> I have a black side instead of white because of this my cube gets scrambled upside down (yellow green, not white [black] green) i think it should be changed to white/black as default U side just a thought...



I use the same scheme, and i'm just wondering: How would that matter in the slightest?


----------



## TheNextFeliks (Jul 15, 2015)

But then someone else says they use gray instead of white and the rule must be changed again. Then someone uses purple instead of white and it must be changed again. I have heard no complaints about the rule. You receive the same scramble. You are not at a disadvantage. If you feel that you are, become CN or something. The WCA isn't going to change scrambling orientation so you get the same cross as everyone else or whatever you are trying to get.


----------



## CubeWizard23 (Jul 15, 2015)

supercavitation said:


> I use the same scheme, and i'm just wondering: How would that matter in the slightest?


Because other than the black the schemes are the same so if they are scrambled from the same orientation it will result in the same distribution of pieces as everybody else instead of a mirror of their scrambles basically


----------



## Lid (Jul 15, 2015)

Asking for scrambling orientation should of cause not be allowed.


----------



## blade740 (Jul 15, 2015)

Just switch to yellow cross. Problem solved.


----------



## Myachii (Jul 15, 2015)

CubeWizard23 said:


> Because other than the black the schemes are the same so if they are scrambled from the same orientation it will result in the same distribution of pieces as everybody else instead of a mirror of their scrambles basically



Asking for a certain scrambling orientation because of your colour scheme is like saying that everyone should use CFOP because some solves favour Roux solvers, or that everyone should use the same colour for cross because some scrambles favour CN solvers.


----------



## qqwref (Jul 16, 2015)

As a scrambler I'd like for black-instead-of-white schemes to be scrambled with black on top and green on front - but the regulations as written definitely do make sense and are easier to enforce overall.


----------



## theROUXbiksCube (Jul 16, 2015)

Not everyone relies on cross... if you really want this changed switch to yellow cross or get white stickers and get used to it


----------



## JustinTimeCuber (Jul 16, 2015)

qqwref said:


> As a scrambler I'd like for black-instead-of-white schemes to be scrambled with black on top and green on front - but the regulations as written definitely do make sense and are easier to enforce overall.



"Lighter color" and "darker color" seem pretty ambiguous. If someone had light green and a dark yellow for their shades, it could end up being the other way around.


----------



## supercavitation (Jul 16, 2015)

CubeWizard23 said:


> Because other than the black the schemes are the same so if they are scrambled from the same orientation it will result in the same distribution of pieces as everybody else instead of a mirror of their scrambles basically



Should orange cross solvers be allowed to request that the cube be scrambled with orange on top? Any attempt to do something like that quickly turns extremely complicated (not a slippery slope, just dealing with all of the common cases that crop up), so the regs are written to provide a good base case, and something clear to do in case it doesn't apply, rather than having a huge number of exceptions.


----------



## qqwref (Jul 16, 2015)

Well, technically an orange cross solver could have a cube where orange is the lightest color, to force it to be on top. It wouldn't be particularly useful, but at least if a white cross solver got an easy cross they could try it too.


----------



## xchippy (Jul 16, 2015)

solve yellow cross or get white stickers. It's not a big deal. It won't matter because sometimes you'll get luckier anyway...


----------



## AlphaSheep (Jul 16, 2015)

I agree, but for completely different reasons.

When solving, you don't know what the scramble was, so the orientation is absolutely irrelevant for you solving.

From a scrambler's point of view, however, it is a pain when checking the scramble on a cube with black instead of white, because you have to mentally switch red and orange, and yellow for white, and black for yellow. You're more more likely not to spot mistakes. If you scramble with black on top, you only have to mentally switch white for black.


----------



## Myachii (Jul 16, 2015)

AlphaSheep said:


> I agree, but for completely different reasons.
> 
> When solving, you don't know what the scramble was, so the orientation is absolutely irrelevant for you solving.
> 
> From a scrambler's point of view, however, it is a pain when checking the scramble on a cube with black instead of white, because you have to mentally switch red and orange, and yellow for white, and black for yellow. You're more more likely not to spot mistakes. If you scramble with black on top, you only have to mentally switch white for black.



A simple fix for this could be an external scramble drawing application that allows you to select scrambling orientation and input any weird colours.


----------



## Renslay (Jul 16, 2015)

Myachii said:


> A simple fix for this could be an external scramble drawing application that allows you to select scrambling orientation and input any weird colours.



I guess it would take much longer time to use that application rather than mentally switching red/orange and blue/green for occasional black stickered cubes. Or checking the patterns themselves rather than the colors!


----------



## Ronxu (Jul 16, 2015)

AlphaSheep said:


> I agree, but for completely different reasons.
> 
> When solving, you don't know what the scramble was, so the orientation is absolutely irrelevant for you solving.
> 
> From a scrambler's point of view, however, it is a pain when checking the scramble on a cube with black instead of white, because you have to mentally switch red and orange, and yellow for white, and black for yellow. You're more more likely not to spot mistakes. If you scramble with black on top, you only have to mentally switch white for black.



Look for patterns instead of colors.


----------



## cubeninjaIV (Jul 16, 2015)

qqwref said:


> Well, technically an orange cross solver could have a cube where orange is the lightest color, to force it to be on top. It wouldn't be particularly useful, but at least if a white cross solver got an easy cross they could try it too.



Not as easy as it sounds
4d1) NxNxN puzzles and Megaminx are scrambled beginning with the white face (if not possible, then the lightest face) on top and the green face (if not possible, then the darkest adjacent face) on the front.

If there is a white side, it goes on top. If there is a green side, it goes on front. Meaning in order to get orange on top there needs to be no white side and orange must be the lightest color


----------



## SpeedCubeReview (Jul 16, 2015)

The fact the different color schemes are allowed makes for a specific scramble to be next to impossible. What if I had Green opposite white, or smoother color scheme.


----------



## MaeLSTRoM (Jul 16, 2015)

This situation was already thought about when the orientation regulations were made, and I don't see it coming into question now, since nothing has changed since then. 
The current rules are simple to enforce, and so shouldn't be changed imo


----------



## tseitsei (Jul 16, 2015)

Ronxu said:


> Look for patterns instead of colors.



+1

This is the way to go. If you check by patterns rather than individual stickers it doesn't matter what color scheme the cube has.


----------



## OrigamiCuber1 (Jul 16, 2015)

I don't see the point of this thread. The WCA won't change a regulation for a few people.


----------



## Lucas Garron (Jul 16, 2015)

What are your reasons? As a competitor, you are still equally likely to get all the same scrambles, regardless of whether the cube is scrambled upside-down or not.

As a scrambler, you shouldn't really care unless you feel strongly that it prevents pattern checking (in which case any "abnormal" color scheme can cause problems).

As qqwref points out, the current Regulations are designed to be clear and simple.



CubeWizard23 said:


> Because other than the black the schemes are the same so if they are scrambled from the same orientation it will result in the same distribution of pieces as everybody else instead of a mirror of their scrambles basically



You're using the word "distribution" ambiguously here. Is your desire that you can do the same cross on black that other competitors in the same round can do on white?
I don't think anyone has given any arguments to support that.


----------



## CubeWizard23 (Jul 16, 2015)

Lucas Garron said:


> You're using the word "distribution" ambiguously here. Is your desire that you can do the same cross on black that other competitors in the same round can do on white?
> I don't think anyone has given any arguments to support that.



correct


----------



## Kit Clement (Jul 16, 2015)

If your cross color is green, should we scramble with green on top?

My color scheme has black as well, so my cross color ends up on front, just like those who are green cross solvers. What color you solve first is an arbitrary choice when you start cubing, and there's no reason to add any confusion to an arbitrary choice.


----------



## TMOY (Jul 23, 2015)

As a competitor, I don't cae the slightest bit about my cube being scrambled with white, black, yellox or whatever on top.

As a scrambler, I find it easier and faster to check scrambles with white simply being repaced with black than to have to do several conversions mentally. Hence scrambling wuch cubes with black on top instaed of yellow can actually speed up things, which may be important in competitions with tight schedules.


----------



## Renslay (Jul 23, 2015)

TMOY said:


> Hence scrambling wuch cubes with black on top instaed of yellow can actually speed up things, which may be important in competitions with tight schedules.



I did some math. Note that this is a rough calculation.

Let's say 10% of the all the cubes are black. There were 423 competitors in the first round of the world championship:
42*5 = 210 scrambles with black cubes.

Let's say there are 5 persons for scrambling, and let's say checking a black cube takes 5 seconds more (comparing to a white cube) for anyone.

Thus the overall extra time is (210*5)/5 = 210 seconds, or 3.5 minutes.

You want to change the regulation to save 4 minutes?

Even if 20% of all the cubes are black (Every fifth cube? Are there really so many?), and checking a black cube takes 10 seconds more (I doubt that), you can save only 14 minutes. And there are much, much fewer persons on a national competition.


----------

