# "Why not produce it like this in the first place?"



## Nilsibert (Jun 17, 2013)

This topic has bugged me for quite some time, and here's what I'm talking about:

We've seen a lot of mods being invented that are made to make certain cubes better. Most of the time, as far as I know, they consist of sanding down sharp edges on pieces. 
I'm sure most of you know the 48 point edge mod for the zhanchi, the corner mod for the V5 and Konsta/florian mods for shengshou cubes, just to name a few well-known examples.
What I'm always wondering about is why don't they produce the cubes like their modded versions in the first place?
For example, the shengshou 4x4 is in its 5th version right now. The konsta/florian mods have been around for some time now. It's pretty much undeniable that if done right, the mods improve the cube by a lot. Why wouldn't shengshou adopt those mods for newer versions? I'd guess that they have heard about the mods. Also the Dayan/Mf8 4x4 has the pieces rounded off in a dayan fashion, and they surely know about this cube. So if they're gonna change the molds for new versions anyway, why wouldn't they produce the pieces rounded off in the first place?
The same goes for the V5. The corner bumps serve no purpose at all, why are they there? I think changing the mold now isn't worth it for the company, but why include those bumps in the first place? I know that V-cubes don't target speedsolvers, but surely even casual cubers prefer a better turning cube.

In some cases I guess you could say a company doesn't want to make the "perfect cube" right away, so they can make improved versions, essentially selling more.
But I don't think that's the case with shengshou, or is it? It doesn't seem like they casually make bigger and bigger dayan-style holes in their newer versions, it seems like they don't even consider it.


Anyway, let me know what you think, I'm interested in your thought on this.


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## applemobile (Jun 17, 2013)

Cost. /thread.


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## mDiPalma (Jun 17, 2013)

see Haiyan Memory & Alpha V


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## Nilsibert (Jun 17, 2013)

applemobile said:


> Cost. /thread.



I just can't seem to figure out what you are saying :/

Sincerely, noob


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## DAoliHVAR (Jun 17, 2013)

Nilsibert said:


> I just can't seem to figure out what you are saying :/
> 
> Sincerely, noob



he means that the answer to your question,is simply the cost of making all that stuff,and /thread means that this is now a useless thread because its been answered


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## Nilsibert (Jun 17, 2013)

Hmm ok. I'm not sure that's the ultimate answer but what do I know..


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## 5BLD (Jun 17, 2013)

As in, it's too expensive to make it pre modded due to the complex shapes required
I mean just look at the Mo Yu. So so so budget.


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## qqwref (Jun 17, 2013)

I agree. Stuff like rounding off corners, having big rounded spaces at the intersections of 4 pieces, etc. would all be great if applied to new puzzles. And I feel like whenever we are all changing the shape of a puzzle's pieces in a specific way to improve it, that change could easily be applied to the molds as well. Of course remaking the molds for a puzzle costs money, but I think some of it is that puzzle designers just don't follow speedcubing mods and don't know about the ways their puzzles need to be improved. That's really the only thing that makes sense when they keep producing new designs and are still far behind.

To be honest, I don't think the "complex shapes" of a modded cube are significantly harder to produce than a normal cube. We've already seen plenty of odd shapes in puzzles like the Zhanchi, Taiyan, Shangren, etc. and most mods really just reduce certain parts of pieces by a few millimeters.


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## Nilsibert (Jun 17, 2013)

5BLD said:


> As in, it's too expensive to make it pre modded due to the complex shapes required
> I mean just look at the Mo Yu. So so so budget.



That makes sense, I see. But the SS 4x4 corners have a design which seems as complex or even more complex as if they were completely rounded. Of course that's just the corners.
Also with the V5, isn't the bumpy corner design more complex than just making it round? I have no experience in the field, it's just assumptions from my side.



qqwref said:


> Of course remaking the molds for a puzzle costs money



Sure it does, but they change the mold for some pieces anyway when making a new version. Why not once change it to get the holes and generally rounded off edged (konstamod) and stick with it? Wouldn't they make more money in the long run if they were without competition because they have the best cubes?


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## Coolster01 (Jun 17, 2013)

Yeah, my brother always says modding cubes is stupid because if a cube needed mods, it would come modded. We need a good cuber and designer in one person who speaks english so we can talk to him. It would be awesome if somebody who knows what a good cube looks like would step up and make a magnificent 4x4. Anybody who can make non-shapeways puzzles here on the forum?


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## mark49152 (Jun 17, 2013)

applemobile said:


> Cost. /thread.


Why is a more rounded corner more expensive than a less rounded corner? Or are you just guessing?


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## Yuxuibbs (Jun 17, 2013)

Since most mods are getting rid of plastic, wouldn't the companies actually save money by making the cube "pre-modded" since the cube would use slightly less plastic?


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## Coolster01 (Jun 17, 2013)

Yuxuibbs said:


> Since most mods are getting rid of plastic, wouldn't the companies actually save money by making the cube "pre-modded" since the cube would use slightly less plastic?



That's what I always wonder, too! It seems pretty darn easy to round pieces off from what I've seen from 3D model designer programs.


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## wontolla (Jun 17, 2013)

I guess companies don't sell "modded" cubes because their main market is not speedcubers. And sometimes, those mods provoque pops in normal people's hands.


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## pipkiksass (Jun 18, 2013)

Yuxuibbs said:


> Since most mods are getting rid of plastic, wouldn't the companies actually save money by making the cube "pre-modded" since the cube would use slightly less plastic?



I don't think it's the cost of the plastic, but the cost of casting more complex moulds. 



wontolla said:


> I guess companies don't sell "modded" cubes because their main market is not speedcubers. And sometimes, those mods provoque pops in normal people's hands.



I think Dayan and ShengShou (and Funs, MoYu...) cater pretty much exclusively to speedcubers. 'Normal people' wouldn't be shopping around for good brands of cubes, and would just buy Rubik's. They don't deliberately make the cubes bad, they could probably make an awesome cube that sold for 30USD, but it would be only marginally better than a modded Zhanchi that you can pick up for $10. :/


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## ryanj92 (Jun 18, 2013)

I think it's better for them to send them out with a bit of extra bulk on them and let us take bits off them rather than minimising the plastic usage and ending up with a product with too little plastic. Especially seeing as people sand surfaces to remove bumps and stuff, whether this needs to be done or not is independent of how much plastic there is there


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## cyoubx (Jun 18, 2013)

I suppose I'm somewhat qualified to try to answer this question.

It really just boils down to cost; not the cost of materials as much as the cost of production. Filleted surfaces are simply harder to machine and therefore cost more money. It's much easier to leave certain parts sharp.

"Pre-modding" a cube is silly since some people wouldn't like the "mod" anyway. If _everyone_ loved the modded version, we'd all be using modded cubes right now. I, for one, haven't used a modded 3x3 as a main in quite some time which suggests that modded cubes aren't inherently needed. Therefore, the rational choice is to drive production costs down and those who want a modded cube can do so themselves. There's no real reason to "pre-mod" a cube since that won't satisfy everyone anyway.


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## Ross The Boss (Jun 18, 2013)

i would rather mod the puzzle myself because (a) i like modding, and (b) so i can chose how much plastic i want to take off.


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## CarlBrannen (Jun 18, 2013)

I think some of the companies do make cubes for speedsolving, otherwise they wouldn't have the fine cubes now available.

But having worked as an engineer I can tell you that behind the scenes, it's not so easy to bring a product out. Getting the cubes to be ultra fast is an objective, but there are a bunch of other objectives that are far more important. The pieces have to fit together. As we saw with the PanShi, they have to not break too easily. That had to have been a disaster for Dayan, companies can't afford returns and customer complaints. These puzzles may seem simple but there's a whole lot of work goes into manufacturing them.

As far as the difficulty of making modded pieces, I don't think there's any real problem. Dayan does a pretty good job by mostly recessing the mold parting lines and they do pretty well with making the joints between pieces reasonably flush. The only internal mod I've done to my ZhanChis is to sand the flat internal surfaces flat. This makes it a lot faster (for me).

And some of the mods aren't all good. I don't like the Florian mod of the 5x5 because it makes the thing more clicky and I prefer a smooth cube. Eventually I'm going to buy a bunch of Shengshou 5x5s and get into moding them to see if I can make a 5x5 that I actually like. What bothers me is that I prefer turning my SS7x7 to the SS 5x5, so what I really want is a 5x5 built from a 7x7 internals (with the 3x3 pieces all held in by the core). Wonder if I couldd make that mod, that is, cut a mini 7x7 down to a 5x5...


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## stensgaard (Jun 18, 2013)

ShengShou is doing this with the 3x3x3 Aurora!
so let's just hope they do the same with the 4x4x4!


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## elrog (Jun 18, 2013)

cyoubx said:


> "Pre-modding" a cube is silly since some people wouldn't like the "mod" anyway. If _everyone_ loved the modded version, we'd all be using modded cubes right now. I, for one, haven't used a modded 3x3 as a main in quite some time which suggests that modded cubes aren't inherently needed. Therefore, the rational choice is to drive production costs down and those who want a modded cube can do so themselves. There's no real reason to "pre-mod" a cube since that won't satisfy everyone anyway.



With certain mods that the majority of people want or use, I think it'd be worth their time to make a pre-modded mold. They may have to pay more, but they would be seen in a better light by the speedsolving community and would get more buyers.



ryanj92 said:


> I think it's better for them to send them out with a bit of extra bulk on them and let us take bits off them rather than minimising the plastic usage and ending up with a product with too little plastic. Especially seeing as people sand surfaces to remove bumps and stuff, whether this needs to be done or not is independent of how much plastic there is there



Larger pieces have more surface area, so would it not make sense to reinforce the piece by adding more plastic on the inside rather than the outside? In the spots that need plastic taken off, just add that plastic back to the inside of the piece in that area.

I'm not really sure as to what the reason is for companies not making pre-modded molds, but I'd guess that it is a combination of many things, some of which having been stated in this thread already.


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## BaMiao (Jun 18, 2013)

Another aspect to keep in mind is that many cube makers are also trying to attract casual puzzle solvers, and not just the speedcubing community. I think the affects shengshou designs most of all.

One thing about the florian mod is that it can leave the cube somewhat unstable and feeling loose- not to mention the holes that can be seen from the exterior. A casual solver may not like these changes- especially one who is not familiar with proper tensioning/lubing.

And shengshou is already king in the speedcubing community. They have no incentive to change the design.


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## MeshuggahX (Jun 18, 2013)

I don't really see the cost to be the problem in making the cubes "pre-modded".

I see people talking about making fillets och rounding corners would make it cost more, and sure...in many cases it does take more time to machine. But cost of that extra work would be very small, and you often want to avoid sharp edges due to the parts more easily breaking at those points. So you would probably already have small fillets on most of the edges. This applies to inner edges.

If you look at a piece it already is pretty round, making it a bit more round would be easy.

I work with this, and I have made electrodes to use in an EDM-machine to make molds.


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## a small kitten (Jun 18, 2013)

Another explanation is that creating cubes (especially 3x3s) that can be modded creates a strong secondary market. It also supports businesses that offer modding/customization services. These business become more likely to buy the original cubes in bulk. 

I don't think that's what cube manufacturers are going for, but it is a possibility. It makes me wonder how modding services will be affected if manufacturers actually started to produce pre-modded cubes.


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## KongShou (Jun 18, 2013)

There is also a patent issue, when u change ur mold u also has to worry about other ppls patent, and rounding off corners ,centre and edge pieces(florian mod) is against dayan patent so shengshou wont dare do it. see below

There is like a fight between Shengshou and Dayan. Here is the link

Basically ss is saying that the small inner circle is not dayan's original design, and their patent mean nothing as they didnt actually invent it. if yongjun, guojia, dayan are all using it, why cant ss use it?
dayan dont like shengshou saying that and especially hate the suggestion that dayan is using someone elses idea. Mr.bao want ss to admit that small inner circle is dayans original design and is patented, and apologies that they mentioned dayan in the above list of ppl wos used orther ppls idea. ss still insist that dayan didnt come up with the small inner circle and refuse to do above. now theres a bunch of ppl in mf8 want them to sue each other.

yay


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## Lagom (Jun 18, 2013)

I took a look at the Fangshi mechanism the other day and noticed a minor design flaw... I modded it and it turned out better. I thought about the whole thing and this flaw would be really hard to see without a prototype. So my thought is that they made a prototype of the design, either didn't realise the flaw or if they did; they figured it's good enough, and far too expensive to create a new prototype. 
So my guess is that it's too expensive to create tons of prototypes to create the perfect cube. People will still buy it. Plus, if you build the perfect cube, why would someone buy the next cube they produce? Just my thoughts, no facts


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## KongShou (Jun 18, 2013)

Lagom said:


> I took a look at the Fangshi mechanism the other day and noticed a minor design flaw... I modded it and it turned out better. I thought about the whole thing and this flaw would be really hard to see without a prototype. So my thought is that they made a prototype of the design, either didn't realise the flaw or if they did; they figured it's good enough, and far too expensive to create a new prototype.
> So my guess is that it's too expensive to create tons of prototypes to create the perfect cube. People will still buy it. Plus, if you build the perfect cube, why would someone buy the next cube they produce? Just my thoughts, no facts



whats the minor design flaw and whats ur solution, ie mod?


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## cyoubx (Jun 18, 2013)

MeshuggahX said:


> I don't really see the cost to be the problem in making the cubes "pre-modded".
> 
> I see people talking about making fillets och rounding corners would make it cost more, and sure...in many cases it does take more time to machine. But cost of that extra work would be very small, and you often want to avoid sharp edges due to the parts more easily breaking at those points. So you would probably already have small fillets on most of the edges. This applies to inner edges.
> 
> ...



Um, I might be wrong but don't EDM electrodes have a high degree of symmetry? As in, they're either rectangular prisms or cylindrical shells. Both of these geometries are easy to machine in a mold. By the cost of additional curves, I think people are referring to concave structures, not extrusion ones.

For example, this would be a lot more expensive to machine than a regular cube:



Another point of consideration is design. Although a lot of pieces have already been filleted, rounding off a piece isn't necessarily just a larger fillet radius. For example, on the Florian mod, the curvature is more complex. Modeling that in CAD would involve more advanced surface modeling which isn't inherently a skill all puzzle designers know.

Lastly, it's expensive to create prototypes again and again. It's not so much that they don't want to make it perfect the first time. Rather, it's probably because they didn't notice the flaws initially. Instead of rectifying the issues right away, why not sell what they have then use the profit for a future revision? Seems to me that's what ShengShou has done with their 4x4!

In all, I think there are too many factors for us to possibly analyze and it's probably a different reason for each designer/manufacturer. Mods aren't needed for every (speed)cuber so there is really no incentive for designers to "pre-mod" cubes for those who want them. The market is so small that it's probably not worth tapping into.


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## Lagom (Jun 18, 2013)

KongShou said:


> whats the minor design flaw and whats ur solution, ie mod?



It's a mod that fixes the lockup issues. Funs puzzle has been too influenced by the modding world, creating too rounded edges 
I will upload a guide soon!


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## KongShou (Jun 18, 2013)

Lagom said:


> It's a mod that fixes the lockup issues. Funs puzzle has been too influenced by the modding world, creating too rounded edges
> I will upload a guide soon!



looking forward to it!


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## MeshuggahX (Jun 18, 2013)

cyoubx said:


> Um, I might be wrong but don't EDM electrodes have a high degree of symmetry? As in, they're either rectangular prisms or cylindrical shells. Both of these geometries are easy to machine in a mold. By the cost of additional curves, I think people are referring to concave structures, not extrusion ones.


Actually no, electrodes doesn't necessarily have a high degree of symmetry. They come in all size and shapes, and to make some molds you have to make several electrodes because it's not possible to machine the electrode in one piece.

Machining concave surfaces instead of flat surfaces (horisontal) obviously takes less time, no argue there. But it isn't really a problem, not that would motivate a worse end result. (Referring to your picture).

Some pictures of electrodes I googled.
https://d2t1xqejof9utc.cloudfront.net/screenshots/pics/29dc48985359496052c2b51a97fe0224/medium.jpg
http://www.coidan.com/images/uploads/edm_graphite_electrodes1_1009.gif



cyoubx said:


> Another point of consideration is design. Although a lot of pieces have already been filleted, rounding off a piece isn't necessarily just a larger fillet radius. For example, on the Florian mod, the curvature is more complex. Modeling that in CAD would involve more advanced surface modeling which isn't inherently a skill all puzzle designers know.


That's true, perhaps that's the case or at least part of it.



cyoubx said:


> Lastly, it's expensive to create prototypes again and again. It's not so much that they don't want to make it perfect the first time. Rather, it's probably because they didn't notice the flaws initially. Instead of rectifying the issues right away, why not sell what they have then use the profit for a future revision? Seems to me that's what ShengShou has done with their 4x4!
> 
> In all, I think there are too many factors for us to possibly analyze and it's probably a different reason for each designer/manufacturer. Mods aren't needed for every (speed)cuber so there is really no incentive for designers to "pre-mod" cubes for those who want them. The market is so small that it's probably not worth tapping into.


I think this is the most probable answer. If you only would make prototypes and not release any products, no money would be made to improve your prototype/product.


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## CubezUBR (Jun 22, 2013)

Why dont dayan and other speedcube compainies reallise that we do the 48pt edge nod and round of the corner stocks on our cubes so they are better, and why dont they have them pre modded. why do ss 4x4's not come pre consta+florrian modded? it makes me wonder


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## CountMe123 (Jun 24, 2013)

Shengshou has made a pre-modded version of the shengshou wind though


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## sneaklyfox (Jun 24, 2013)

If SS came out with a pre-modded 4x4 then I would buy it now. I don't have the time to do much modding. 3x3 like 48-PEM is ok because it's easy. I don't want to spend a lot of money for someone else to mod the cube for me either.


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