# Seven Towns Infringement on eBay - All of EU



## Pixel 6 (May 22, 2015)

*So I got a few emails today I am going to share with you, and let you guys determine what this means.

Basically, about 40 of my listings I've had active for the last few years just got removed from eBay, siting a trademark from Seven Towns. 
Essentially the summed up version, is that from the USA via eBay, I can not sell any cube in the EU Market.

Here's the emails, and I will delete personal information as needed:



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------*
Your listing has been removed: Trademark Violation - Unauthorized Item
Actions 

Hello lubixcube,
After reviewing your eBay account, we've taken the following action:
- Listings have been removed. A list of items that were removed can be viewed at the bottom of this message.
- We have credited all associated fees except for the final value fee for your listing(s). 
Your listing was removed after the rights owner reported it as counterfeit. We urge you to contact the rights owner directly for more information about why they requested the removal of your listing and whether you can relist the item.

For more information on our VeRO program, please visit:
http://pages.ebay.com/vero/infoforusers.html

If you have more questions, contact our policy experts:
http://ocsnext.ebay.com/ocs/cusr?query=1337&=PTB1211



Please be sure your current and future listings follow these guidelines, keeping in mind that additional violations could result in the suspension of your account.

The rights owner or an agent authorized to act on behalf of the rights owner, Seven Towns Limited, notified eBay that this listing violates intellectual property rights. When eBay receives a report of this type of violation, we remove the listing to comply with the law.



We encourage you to contact Seven Towns Limited directly if you have any questions.

You can send an email to: 
[email protected]

For more information on how eBay protects Intellectual Property, or for additional information if you believe that your listing has been removed as a result of an error or misidentification, please visit the following Help page: 
http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/programs-vero-ov.html

*Here are the listings that were removed:*
121036706204 - Lubix GuHong (V2) - Dayan 3x3 Cube - BLACK
121046950713 - Lubix ZhanChi - Dayan 3x3 Cube - BLACK
111168484164 - Lubix FangShi 54.6mm 3x3 Cube - BLACK
111168486793 - Lubix FangShi 54.6mm 3x3 Cube - WHITE + BLACK
111168497006 - Lubix MoYu WeiLong 3x3 Cube - BLACK
111168519733 - Lubix ShengShou Aurora 3x3 Cube - BLACK
111168520421 - Lubix ShengShou Aurora 3x3 Cube - WHITE
111168526867 - Lubix Illusion 3x3 Cube - BLACK + WHITE
111168561088 - Lubix MoYu HuanYing 3x3 Cube - BLACK
111210023025 - Lubix Illusion 3x3 Cube - BLUE + WHITE
111210023361 - Lubix Illusion 3x3 Cube - GREEN + WHITE
111210023750 - Lubix Illusion 3x3 Cube - RED + WHITE
111282857745 - Lubix MoYu WeiLong (V2) 3x3 Cube - BLACK
111282871247 - Lubix Gans III (V2) 3x3 Cube (+Free Tool) - BLACK
111402550120 - Lubix MoYu AoLong 54.6mm 3x3 Cube - BLACK
111585400014 - Lubix MoYu AoLong (V2) 3x3 Cube - WHITE
120919057948 - Lubix GuHong (V1) - Dayan 3x3 Cube - BLACK
120919059581 - Lubix LingYun (V2) - Dayan 3x3 Cube - BLACK
120958391401 - Lubix Fusion - Modified Dayan GuHong (V1) 3x3 Cube - BLACK
121052345189 - Lubix GuHong (V1) - Dayan 3x3 Cube - WHITE
121052347623 - Lubix GuHong (V1) - Dayan 3x3 Cube - STICKERLESS
121052349824 - Lubix GuHong (V2) - Dayan 3x3 Cube - WHITE
121052350205 - Lubix GuHong (V2) - Dayan 3x3 Cube - STICKERLESS
121052355938 - Lubix Fusion - Modified Dayan GuHong (V1) 3x3 Cube - STICKERLESS
121052364035 - Lubix ZhanChi - Dayan 3x3 Cube - WHITE
121052385492 - Lubix ZhanChi - Dayan 3x3 Cube - STICKERLESS
121052387819 - Lubix LingYun (V2) - Dayan 3x3 Cube - WHITE
121052389104 - Lubix LingYun (V2) - Dayan 3x3 Cube - STICKERLESS
121052402147 - Lubix 55mm "Mini" ZhanChi - Dayan 3x3 Cube - BLACK
121052402815 - Lubix 55mm "Mini" ZhanChi - Dayan 3x3 Cube - WHITE
121052404783 - Lubix 50mm "Mini" ZhanChi - Dayan 3x3 Cube - BLACK
121052407624 - Lubix 42mm "Mini" ZhanChi - Dayan 3x3 Cube - STICKERLESS
121052413290 - Lubix LunHui - Dayan 3x3 Cube - BLACK
121052413638 - Lubix LunHui - Dayan 3x3 Cube - WHITE
121052414009 - Lubix LunHui - Dayan 3x3 Cube - STICKERLESS
121175246803 - Lubix FangShi 57mm 3x3 Cube - BLACK
121175249670 - Lubix FangShi 57mm 3x3 Cube - WHITE
121175260389 - Lubix FangShi 54.6mm 3x3 Cube - WHITE
121175262506 - Lubix FangShi 54.6mm 3x3 Cube - BLACK + WHITE
121175263152 - Lubix FangShi 54.6mm 3x3 Cube - OFF WHITE + BLACK
121175269772 - Lubix MoYu WeiLong 3x3 Cube - WHITE
121175308088 - Lubix PanShi 3x3 Cube - BLACK
121175308493 - Lubix PanShi 3x3 Cube - WHITE
121175310769 - Lubix MoYu HuanYing 3x3 Cube - WHITE
121210246439 - Lubix Illusion 3x3 Cube - ORANGE + WHITE
121240547933 - Lubix 55mm "Mini" ZhanChi - Dayan 3x3 Cube - STICKERLESS
121278641169 - Lubix MoYu WeiLong (V2) 3x3 Cube - WHITE
121278642870 - Lubix MoYu WeiLong (V2) 3x3 Cube - STICKERLESS
121278653320 - Lubix Gans III (V2) 3x3 Cube (+Free Tool) - WHITE



We appreciate your cooperation.
Thanks,

eBay 

Please don't reply to this message. It was sent from an address that doesn't accept incoming email.
*-------------------------------------------------------------------------------



After calling them, I was sent the following email:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------*
Hello, 

Thank you for speaking with me today. 

*Below is the information included with the report we recieved from Seven Town Limited:
Unlawful replica of a product made by the
trademark owner. **

*The* *RUBIK’S CUBE®* *in its three dimensional form and any graphic or
photographic representation of it, in any configuration, coloured or
uncoloured, whether or not it carries the **RUBIK’S CUBE®* *name or logo, **is
protected by intellectual property laws throughout the world**.*

*The following applies to all 3x3x3 cubes that are not branded Rubik's
Cubes:*

- *Sales and shipping of all 3x3x3 cubes to all EU countries
is prohibited.*
- *Online sales of 3x3x3 cubes within the EU is prohibited.*
- *European Custom Officers are aware of this Court decision and
accordingly will seize and destroy shipments of illegal cubes at point of entry into the EU.*

*Also, here is the trademark registration: *

US TM 3 x 3 Rubik's Cubes (Design Only) 2285794
EU trademark reg.#: 009975681, 005696232, 004170858, 009308255

Thank you again for speaking with me today. 

eBay VeRO Team
*-------------------------------------------------------------------------------



And Finally, a list of the countries effected, and a link to the EU Trademark information:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------*
Hello, 

Thank you again for speaking with me today. 

Attached is your listing information.

Here is the direct link to Seven Towns Limited European trademark: 
https://oami.europa.eu/eSearch/#details/trademarks/000162784



Here are the European countries that eBay has sites in that would be excluded in the shipping options: 
United Kingdom

Austria 

BelgiumBe

France

Germany

Italy

Netherlands

Romania

Slovakia

Spain

Switzerland

Czech Republic

Denmark

Finland

Greece

Hungary

Ireland

Norway

Poland

Portugal

Sweden

Ukraine 

I hope all this information is helpful please let us know if you have any other questions or concerns. 

eBay VeRO Team 
*-------------------------------------------------------------------------------*



*So in closing, have any other stores experienced this same issue? It looks like eBay is in the process of doing a full sweep, and every 3x3 not branded as a Rubik's, is subject to Seven Towns broad club of justice.

- Pixel -*


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## Ernie Pulchny (May 22, 2015)

This is just beyond ridiculous. Seven Towns just can't accept the fact that products similar to theirs have existed for years already, especially cubes. Who ever is in charge of Seven Towns needs to understand that making a business by shutting down other businesses for selling non-Rubik's brand products is just plain wrong. No one will ever buy a Rubik's brand 3x3 to use as a speedcube, unless they're good out of the box and needs minor maintenance, or they're heavily modded for speedcubing. Plus, most of us already agree that most Chinese cube brands are better than the Rubik's brand. Even though we are talking about the European market, it's just not cool to take down eBay listings for any market because of the details of the product. Doesn't Seven Towns know that the Rubik's Cube patent has already been expired for several years already? If so, then why do they waste their time by taking down eBay listings that contain non-Rubik's brand cubes? I'm not sure if that applies to the patent having been expired, but still! That's what I'm going to say about this stupidity pulled by Seven Towns.


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## Pixel 6 (May 22, 2015)

Looking a bit further into this, it seems that the only USA listings on eBay that are still selling 3x3 cubes, are US sellers who did not have their listings set up to ship outside the US.

Every listing I have seen, that originated in the USA, shipping any cube (Including for example, my Illusion design) have been removed. Apparently Seven Towns has claimed my *Lubix Illusion* design has also infringed on their Trade Mark?


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## cashis (May 22, 2015)

Wow. Nice job, Seven Towns. I'm never buying another product from them


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## molarmanful (May 22, 2015)

One more reason to hate Rubik's brands.


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## supercavitation (May 23, 2015)

Wait, does this mean there's a chance Seven Towns will go after V-Cube? Because that would be fun to watch.


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## FailCuber (May 23, 2015)

supercavitation said:


> Wait, does this mean there's a chance Seven Towns will go after V-Cube? Because that would be fun to watch.



Yeah but only the 3x3's.


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## SpeedCubeReview (May 23, 2015)

Ok. I don't like this either.. but serious discussion, do they have a case?


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## Praetorian (May 23, 2015)

supercavitation said:


> Wait, does this mean there's a chance Seven Towns will go after V-Cube? Because that would be fun to watch.



hahah it would be verdes would flip out


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## molarmanful (May 23, 2015)

ViolaBouquet said:


> Ok. I don't like this either.. but serious discussion, do they have a case?



Eh... not that I can really think of. The reason is listed that the products are "unlawful replicas," but... Aw, screw it. Rubik's Logic!


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## TPC (May 23, 2015)

Wow, this is completely ridiculous. News flash Seven Towns, your puzzles are terrible and taking down all of your competition won't make them any less terrible. I would love to see them go after V-Cubes; the two ultimate mass-suers.


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## cubernya (May 23, 2015)

In all seriousness, go to eBay with the proper information regarding the trademark/patent expirations (the patent expired in 2000). If they refuse to accept that, you should try and bring Seven Towns to court. It might be worth it to make a point (if you can get a damn good lawyer)


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## PenguinsDontFly (May 23, 2015)

Purple.


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## Pixel 6 (May 23, 2015)

theZcuber said:


> In all seriousness, go to eBay with the proper information regarding the trademark/patent expirations (the patent expired in 2000). If they refuse to accept that, you should try and bring Seven Towns to court. It might be worth it to make a point (if you can get a damn good lawyer)



The work-around they found, is that it's not the Patent they are using for this loop hole. It's the Trademark.

Here's those details again. Notice how it says vague terms such as "*any*". 

From what I understand from the lady that helped answer my questions on eBay, is that the wording in the EU trademark is vague, where in the US, the wording may be slightly different, and has to be more specific. This allows the sales in the US.



Below is the information included with the report we recieved from Seven Town Limited:
Unlawful replica of a product made by the
trademark owner. *

*The* *RUBIK’S CUBE®* *in its three dimensional form and *any* graphic or
photographic representation of it, in *any* configuration, coloured or
uncoloured, whether or not it carries the **RUBIK’S CUBE®* *name or logo, **is
protected by intellectual property laws throughout the world**.*

*The following applies to all 3x3x3 cubes that are not branded Rubik's
Cubes:*

- *Sales and shipping of all 3x3x3 cubes to all EU countries
is prohibited.*
- *Online sales of 3x3x3 cubes within the EU is prohibited.*
- *European Custom Officers are aware of this Court decision and
accordingly will seize and destroy shipments of illegal cubes at point of entry into the EU.*

Also, here is the trademark registration: 

US TM 3 x 3 Rubik's Cubes (Design Only) 2285794
EU trademark reg.#: 009975681, 005696232, 004170858, 009308255


_Technically, if I were to take a sh** (any color), mush it into the shape of a cube (3x3x3) with or without Rubik's logo, (perhaps my own pea logo) they would be obligated to destroy it upon point of entry into the EU. As snide as that sounds... that's actually literally what they are saying. Think about that.
_
- Anyone remember the Purple sticker issue of years past? -


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## Michael Womack (May 23, 2015)

Not again.
From the last time that this happened I don't think Seven town learned from it.


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## Please Dont Ask (May 23, 2015)

So its just a matter of time untill seven towns get to the chineese cubes?


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## guysensei1 (May 23, 2015)

Please Dont Ask said:


> So its just a matter of time untill seven towns get to the chineese cubes?


Copyright law doesn't really exist in china.

(That's probably not fully accurate but for all intents and purposes...)


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## Carrot (May 23, 2015)

China has the strictest copyright law in the world. It's just extremely hard to shut down Chinese factories without new ones popping up, so most companies don't even bother bringing them to court.


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## cashis (May 23, 2015)

Carrot said:


> China has the strictest copyright law in the world. It's just extremely hard to shut down Chinese factories without new ones popping up, so most companies don't even bother bringing them to court.



So, in essence nonexistent. If a law isnt enforced it doesnt really count


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## Eduard Khil (May 23, 2015)

Same as a keyboard. The inventor of it (Sholes?) could sue anyone using the QWERTY layout at that time.
7 town's stupid argument duh. Other than ebay I dont think they have the power nor right to close down thecubicle, moyu, etc


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## qqwref (May 23, 2015)

Although they're certainly within their legal rights to do this, it's pretty disgusting, and I hope someone at SevenTowns realizes the effect this has.

For a while, it was very common to buy cubes as DIY kits - bags of pieces with separate stickers - so as not to run afoul of any trademarks... maybe someday that will have to come back.


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## Lchu613 (May 23, 2015)

I actually like DIY kits better than pre-assembled cubes tbh


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## NeilH (May 23, 2015)

qqwref said:


> For a while, it was very common to buy cubes as DIY kits - bags of pieces with separate stickers - so as not to run afoul of any trademarks... maybe someday that will have to come back.



I never knew this, but this is really smart.


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## Carbon (May 23, 2015)

Simply put, this is Bullcrap


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## AlexMaass (May 23, 2015)

This is a stupid loophole idea, but could you just sell something like a "Lubix's cube store coupon for (insert cube name here)" and sell that? Technically it wouldn't be selling the actual product which seven towns claim to be an infringement, but kind of still selling the actual product.


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## cashis (May 23, 2015)

AlexMaass said:


> This is a stupid loophole idea, but could you just sell something like a "Lubix's cube store coupon for (insert cube name here)" and sell that? Technically it wouldn't be selling the actual product which seven towns claim to be an infringement, but kind of still selling the actual product.


I laughed at this, but it could work


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## Michael Womack (May 23, 2015)

Although this might sound stupid but it might help your ebay store. You might want to try and sell Lubix Rubik's Speed cube.


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## AlexMaass (May 23, 2015)

Michael Womack said:


> Although this might sound stupid but it might help your ebay store. You might want to try and sell Lubix Rubik's Speed cube.



heh that'd be interesting to see a lubix rubik's brand, it would probably be decent, their speedcube is actually decent I've heard.


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## Michael Womack (May 24, 2015)

AlexMaass said:


> heh that'd be interesting to see a lubix rubik's brand, it would probably be decent, their speedcube is actually decent I've heard.



It is a very good cube after the proper lube job like the way Lubix does it.


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## mDiPalma (May 24, 2015)

Pixel 6 said:


> Notice how it says vague terms such as "*any*".



Explain to me again how "any" is a vague word.


"Mom, can I buy the Twizzlers?"

"No Brian, you can't buy ANY candy."


That's about as un-vague as you can get, bro.



Spoiler



I wrote you a poem:

Hey man, imma tell u soz'
'cause 7towns has many flaws,
but at least they don't break laws.
This kitten has cute paws.


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## Lchu613 (May 24, 2015)

I think he means that "any" is a pretty broad term 
Not that that's illegal


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## PenguinsDontFly (May 24, 2015)

mDiPalma said:


> Explain to me again how "any" is a vague word.
> 
> 
> "Mom, can I buy the Twizzlers?"
> ...



'Any' is vague. 


Spoiler



Thats a small kitten.


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## Phinagin (May 24, 2015)

mDiPalma said:


> Explain to me again how "any" is a vague word.
> 
> 
> "Mom, can I buy the Twizzlers?"
> ...


It is all about context sure in the example you just provided "any" was not a vague term. But if I altered the same example "any"becomes extremly vague.

"Mom, can I buy the Twizzlers."
"Yes, Brian. You can have any candy you want."
In that example the word "any" is vague because it refers to every candy in existence, but not any one spefically, which is seemingly endless.


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## mDiPalma (May 24, 2015)

PenguinsDontFly said:


> 'Any' is vague.





Phinagin said:


> But if I altered the same example "any"becomes extremly vague.




The RUBIK’S CUBE® in its three dimensional form and *any* graphic or
photographic representation of it, in *any* configuration, coloured or
uncoloured, whether or not it carries the RUBIK’S CUBE® name or logo, is
protected by intellectual property laws throughout the world.


It clearly says that ANY physical cube and ANY graphic representations are protected by intellectual property.

There is no ambiguity. It isn't vague. It's explicit.


Here is what it would look like if it were "vague":

*A cube* in *some various* forms,
in *several* configurations, *possibly* coloured,
*with special consideration taken if* it carries *a relevant* name or logo, *might potentially be*
protected by *some laws* throughout *parts of* the world *in some cases*.


yes? :tu ?


edit: i think the word you're looking for is "comprehensive" or "inclusive." Those qualities are necessary in regulations to protect intellectual property. Otherwise the law serves no purpose


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## Phinagin (May 24, 2015)

mDiPalma said:


> It clearly says that ANY physical cube and ANY graphic representations are protected by intellectual property.
> 
> There is no ambiguity. It isn't vague. It's explicit.



Wait would that mean that my cubic tissue box is protected by intellectual property of Seven Towns? I do not know because of the vagueness of ANY. Likewise is a picture of my tissue box protected,by intellectual property of Seven Towns?


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## mDiPalma (May 24, 2015)

Phinagin said:


> Wait would that mean that my cubic tissue box is protected by intellectual property of Seven Towns? I do not know because of the vagueness of ANY. Likewise is a picture of my tissue box protected,by intellectual property of Seven Towns?



No.



Pixel 6 said:


> _Technically, if I were to take a sh** (any color), mush it into the shape of a cube (3x3x3) with or without Rubik's logo, (perhaps my own pea logo) they would be obligated to destroy it upon point of entry into the EU. As snide as that sounds... that's actually literally what they are saying. Think about that.
> _



And no.

see this http://www.dw.de/rubiks-cube-trademark-puzzle-solved-by-eu-court/a-18084817


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## Ordway Persyn (May 24, 2015)

rubiks should focus on making products that are higher quality than the competitors than focusing on preventing the sales of the competitors. All they are doing is 
ruining their reputation in the cubing community even more. this isn't the first time they have done this either.


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## Michael Womack (May 24, 2015)

Ordway Persyn said:


> rubiks should focus on making products that are higher quality than the competitors than focusing on preventing the sales of the competitors. All they are doing is
> ruining their reputation in the cubing community even more. this isn't the first time they have done this either.



I agree with you.


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## darckhitet (May 25, 2015)

Well this sucks because i was about to buy some lubix cubes when i notice most of them are gone now i come here and see this, it's just ridiculous like what do they want? companies are trying to make what you can't do and you do this seven towns?


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## pdilla (May 25, 2015)

Phinagin said:


> Wait would that mean that my cubic tissue box is protected by intellectual property of Seven Towns? I do not know because of the vagueness of ANY. Likewise is a picture of my tissue box protected,by intellectual property of Seven Towns?






mDiPalma said:


> The RUBIK’S CUBE® in its three dimensional form and *any* graphic or
> photographic representation of it, in *any* configuration, coloured or
> uncoloured, whether or not it carries the RUBIK’S CUBE® name or logo, is
> protected by intellectual property laws throughout the world.



The word "any" is in reference to the configuration and color of the cube. The subject is explicitly a Rubik's Cube. There is no ambiguity that allows your tissue box into play.


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## darckhitet (May 25, 2015)

Basically seven towns owns every single configuration of the rubik's cube, if not they could scramble cubes on an specific way and sell them


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## Pixel 6 (May 25, 2015)

I want to make this part a bit of a productive rant, based on my observations about other products in the world.

I fully support and agree that if a cube manufacturer illegally replicates a Rubik's product, and packages it as such, with the Rubik's brand logo, they are in fact stealing money from Rubik's and hurting the cubing community in general.


Let's look at this from another perspective though. Are you all familiar with the following brands: Scotch tape, Kleenex, Aspirin, Super Glue, Chapstick, Popsicles, Q-tips, Sharpie, Bic, Velcro, Bandaids, etc...

Each of these products holds the name that people are familiar with, but are not actually the product. (Scotch tape = cellophane tape, Kleenex = tissue paper, Aspirin = acetaminophen, Super Glue = cyanoacrylate, Chapstick = petroleum jelly, Popsicle = frozen treat, Q-tip = cotton swab, Sharpie = permanent marker, Bic = pen or lighter, Velcro = hook & loop, Bandaids = adhesive bandage)

Now in the rest of the rational world, brand name recognition seems to be enough to stick in peoples minds and give the credit to the original creator or brander of the product. If I ask you for an Aspirin, what I am really saying is I'm looking for a product with the same ingredients. If I get a cut, I've never asked someone for an adhesive bandage... I ask for a Bandaid.

Now with each of these products, another company has come along and found a way to improve or change the product and manufacture it with the same rights as the "branded" version. How many types of Velcro are there in the world now?

So, you take companies like Dayan or Moyu, and each of these companies have extrapolated on the original concept, but have changed it's mechanics drastically (octopus core in the Gans anyone?). We all get to experience a version of the original Rubik's product that has been tweaked to serve the need of speed cubers, but for some reason when I go to the local store to buy scotch tape, I have literally hundreds of options to serve my needs. Why can't Seven Towns understand this? Because of companies like Dayan and Moyu Rubik's reputation (and sales I'd imagine) has been improved upon... not hurt.

Without these companies, would you have ever heard of Collin Burns, Mats Valk, Feliks Zemdegs? Perhaps... and we'd all be in awe at their sub 20 second world records.

- Pixel -


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## Michael Womack (May 25, 2015)

I agree with you Pixel 6. But I see your point plus you all introduced a whole new thing for us Speedcubers with the new type of lube and lubeing methods. Now most cubers would say stuff like "I use Traxxas and Lubix to lube my cubes." When there referring to Silicone Diff oil type lube. Plus Ebay is a place where you can sell allot of things without any problem. With your issue of 7towns telling you what you can and can't sell is stupid. It's like saying that Tim Cook (CEO of Apple) telling electronic stores like Best Buy that they have to stop selling the Windows computers and start to only sell Apple computers.


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## darckhitet (May 26, 2015)

can you sell unstickered cubes?


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## Dyys (May 26, 2015)

TPCuber said:


> Wow, this is completely ridiculous. News flash Seven Towns, your puzzles are terrible and taking down all of your competition won't make them any less terrible. I would love to see them go after V-Cubes; the two ultimate mass-suers.



No allison, it isnt worth it. The world would end in nuclear destruction.


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## Michael Womack (May 27, 2015)

Someone posted these on a Cubing Facebook group. Saying "Only original Rubik´s 3x3s will be sold and in and shipped to EU"


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## MarcelP (May 27, 2015)

It really pisses me off to think that buying cubes in future might be a hassle.. BJ Seventown


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## SpeedCubeReview (May 27, 2015)

Michael Womack said:


> Someone posted these on a Cubing Facebook group. Saying "Only original Rubik´s 3x3s will be sold and in and shipped to EU"



What is the group?


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## Ordway Persyn (May 27, 2015)

wow rubik's, 
As of now I'd rather support V-cubes


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## Michael Womack (May 27, 2015)

ViolaBouquet said:


> What is the group?



this Speedcubing group https://www.facebook.com/groups/134247353357584/


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## cashis (May 27, 2015)

Ordway Persyn said:


> wow rubik's,
> As of now I'd rather support V-cubes



I wouldnt go that far...


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## Michael Womack (May 28, 2015)

Look at this article http://rubiksgift.com/rubiks-cube-media/rubiks-patent-update-rubiks-wins-biggest-legal-yet/


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## Zarxrax (May 28, 2015)

Probably the way to approach this would be for the community to voice their opinions via the company's official facebook page and twitter. Companies don't like this sort of stuff being in the public eye like that.


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## cashis (May 28, 2015)

Michael Womack said:


> Look at this article http://rubiksgift.com/rubiks-cube-media/rubiks-patent-update-rubiks-wins-biggest-legal-yet/



Well, this seriously rustled my jimmies.


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## Michael Womack (May 28, 2015)

Zarxrax said:


> Probably the way to approach this would be for the community to voice their opinions via the company's official facebook page and twitter. Companies don't like this sort of stuff being in the public eye like that.



Well here is there FB and twitter pages.
https://www.facebook.com/Rubiksonline?fref=ts
https://twitter.com/Rubiksonline
also the Google Plus page https://plus.google.com/+rubikscube/posts


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## Phinagin (May 28, 2015)

"Rubik’s continues to fight against fakes around the world, with tens of thousands destroyed each year.
Its most recent win in October is a shipment of 40,000pcs of fake Rubik’s Cubes seized by the US Customs and Border Protection." - from the rubik's website linked above. 

It is strange how they are so happy with this 'accomplishment' of destroying cubes of this quantity. It makes it seem like there main goal isn't to have people enjoy the cubing community which was made possible from their 3x3x3 cube, but instead to destroy it altogether.


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## Michael Womack (May 28, 2015)

I feel like that Rubik's next step is going to be to copyright the word and shape "Cube"


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## Carbon (May 28, 2015)

I see a small problem here, If Noobix is saying only "original" puzzles can be distributed throughout Europe, does this mean that the V cube 3 will also be affected?

On a side note , maybe if Vcubes and Rubik's get into a huge lawsuit, they will both get shut down for pure idiocy, Maru or Moyu or somesuch will take over the consumer market for cubes. Also a Noobix vs Vcube lawsuit would be fun to watch *Grabs Popcorn*


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## molarmanful (May 28, 2015)

WE ARE DOOMED! Start a rebellion!

But seriously, we should really voice our concerns on their social media pages.


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## Aikho (May 28, 2015)

This makes me a sad panda. Hopefully buying DIY gets around it. Cause then I wouldn't be buying a cube, even though it could be assembled into one.


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## Michael Womack (May 28, 2015)

Aikho said:


> This makes me a sad panda. Hopefully buying DIY gets around it. Cause then I wouldn't be buying a cube, even though it could be assembled into one.



This effects all 3x3 style twisty puzzle being sold in the EU no matter what format they're being sold in.


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## Ordway Persyn (May 28, 2015)

The biggest thing I worry about is that this crap could start happening in the U.S., I'm then going to have to buy cubes from people smuggling them in like some sort of drug.
Why does Rubik's care so much, do they wan't to upset the entire cube community. Rubik's should realize that "knockoffs" are just something there going to deal with, and if people are buying them even if they are more expensive or not shows that they are the better product, and trying to prohibit them doesn't mean that people that are buying the latest Moyu cube are going to start buying Rubiks Brands. In fact before this I might have bought their speed cube just to see how well it is, but know I'm not even considering buying anything from Rubik's even if they release a 5x5 thats better than all the ones on the market right now. In fact V-cubes could be our last hope, If Rubik's does get in a lawsuit with them, V cubes could win and Rubik's will stop doing this BS. And if they don't, V-cubes will get a taste of their own medicine by getting some of their products removed from store shelves. Not as good of an outcome, but still the Irony would be great. But hey we're not going to get stuff done by typing on some forum, maybe share this with Facebook or Twitter friends, and maybe with enough bad press, Rubik's will stop this craziness.


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## penguinz7 (May 28, 2015)

Ordway Persyn said:


> I'm then going to have to buy cubes from people smuggling them in like some sort of drug.



*Walks past alley* *Sees guy in trenchcoat* 
"psst! hey! Wanna buy some.. cubes?"


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## supercube (May 28, 2015)

I'm not sure about EU law but in the USA you have your own lubix trademark by default if you have been selling them for a while publicly and they carry something unique such as your lubix logo that can be proven as creating a recognizable brand. if no one can tell the difference between your lubix cube and the rubik's cube then you are creating enough confusion to possibly be infringing on the rubik's trademark. traditionally in the USA rubik's brand has been winning court cases for a while right after the patent expired simply by claiming the color palate and scheme as being iconic and unique to the official rubik's brand since it has existed for years that way with mostly no legal competition. that argument falls apart when people use black instead of white or when they use rubik's colors but with something strange like green opposite yellow. rubik's has created a white DIY cube many years after Chinese brands have made and sold white cubes in the united states. rubik's is infringing on an un-enforced trademark of white plastic cubes. I read the EU court decision and it clearly does not apply to 6 color stickerless cubes as they do not contain black lines between tiles. another court challenge with OHIM pursued by a different plaintiff (lubix? V-cubes?, Dayan? Moyu?) regarding white plastic cubes would clear up any guessing games as to the legality of white cubes in the EU.


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## AJ Blair (May 28, 2015)

At the start of the year, I bought 3,000 knockoff cubes for a secret art project that I was working on from a factory in China. They were supposed to arrive at my door step in the USA in about 3 weeks, but 4 months later, the order had been shipped and not gotten here 3 seperate times. I initially passed it off as a shady company in China just trying to take my money, but I'm wondering now how long this fight for the EU trademark has been happening. The cubes had to go through the UK for some reason to get here and I'm wondering if they were seen by customs and destroyed each time...this is just a ridiculous situation.


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## qqwref (May 28, 2015)

Pixel 6 said:


> I fully support and agree that if a cube manufacturer illegally replicates a Rubik's product, and packages it as such, with the Rubik's brand logo, they are in fact stealing money from Rubik's and hurting the cubing community in general.


I agree - if someone is counterfeiting the Rubik's brand, and producing fake cubes that look like official Rubik's products, they are just skimming money off of Seven Towns's success and they deserve to be shut down. I am honestly not sure that anyone at Seven Towns sees the difference between this and other 3x3x3s which are sold as their own brand and have their own internal design. I am sure the vast majority of people who buy a Moyu, Dayan, Funs, etc. 3x3x3 are not customers who actually intended to buy an Official Rubik's Cube and were mislead by the fact that all of these are cubes divided into a three-by-three grid on each side.


Wikipedia says "The essential function of a trademark is to exclusively identify the commercial source or origin of products or services" - in that sense, the proper trademark on cubes ought to be the Rubik's logo and associated graphics. I think the proliferation of 3x3x3 cubes with original, creative mechanisms from many companies which compete, not with Seven Towns, but with each other, should be proof enough that the physical shape of a 3x3x3 does not identify the commercial source/origin of the cube, and in fact, is a fundamental aspect of the puzzle. Indeed, they mention unstickered cubes, and I'm pretty sure Erno Rubik was not the first to think of a solid cube divided into 3 layers on each axis. The Soma cube is a 3x3x3 take-apart puzzle developed in 1933, and is often produced in ways which emphasize the 27 cubes and not the individual pieces. Here is an old one in dark wood that could just as easily be an unstickered wooden Rubik's Cube.


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## AlexMaass (May 28, 2015)

Yeah, DIY, should get around this I believe, or maybe selling cubes disassembled.


penguinz7 said:


> *Walks past alley* *Sees guy in trenchcoat*
> "psst! hey! Wanna buy some.. cubes?"



That's actually kind of how Fridich bought her first cube lol.


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## penguinz7 (May 28, 2015)

AlexMaass said:


> That's actually kind of how Fridich bought her first cube lol.



I feel like there's more to this..


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## cashis (May 28, 2015)

AlexMaass said:


> That's actually kind of how Fridich bought her first cube lol.



Link pls


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## AlexMaass (May 28, 2015)

cashis said:


> Link pls


http://www.ws.binghamton.edu/fridrich/history.html#last


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## penguinz7 (May 29, 2015)

AlexMaass said:


> http://www.ws.binghamton.edu/fridrich/history.html#last



heh


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## biscuit (May 29, 2015)

lol. Good read


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## cashis (May 29, 2015)

Thanks Alex!


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## Gordon (May 29, 2015)

Michael Womack said:


> Look at this article http://rubiksgift.com/rubiks-cube-media/rubiks-patent-update-rubiks-wins-biggest-legal-yet/



Quote from article:
"Effectively this decision allows the Rubik brand to claim protection for any flat sided Cube with equally spaced orthogonal 3x3x3 grid whatever surface decoration within the toy and game category."

My thoughts on this:
- Is the 'grid' of modern Speedcubes really an 'equally spaced' grid? I wouldn't say so because of the rounded corners. This would mean for me, that cubes, let's say since the ZhanChi or even earlier models wouldn't fit into the claimed protection.
- In wikipedia, speedcubing is listed as sport: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sports#Speedcubing (see also https://www.speedsolving.com/forum/showthread.php?439-Speedcubing-a-Sport). Wouldn't this make Speedcubes sports equipment instead of a toy or a game?


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## biscuit (May 29, 2015)

Gordon said:


> Quote from article:
> "Effectively this decision allows the Rubik brand to claim protection for any flat sided Cube with equally spaced orthogonal 3x3x3 grid whatever surface decoration within the toy and game category."
> 
> My thoughts on this:
> ...



I looked up the definition of grid and this is what I got

A framework of spaced bars that are parallel to or cross each other.
A network of lines that cross each other to form a series of squares or rectangles.

Neither of these definitions state that a grid has to be completely straight or uniform. It's a good thought though

I honestly don't agree that cubing is a sport. It's a competitive activity but not a sport. Here is the definition I found on "sport"

An activity involving physical exertion and skill in which an individual or team competes against another or others for entertainment. 

I guess you COULD argue that you are exerting your fingers but is any one actually going to argue that it is physically challenging to cube for a long period of time? (And then there is chess... I love you chess but your NOT a sport)


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## tseitsei (May 29, 2015)

biscuit said:


> I honestly don't agree that cubing is a sport. It's a competitive activity but not a sport. Here is the definition I found on "sport"
> 
> An activity involving physical exertion and skill in which an individual or team competes against another or others for entertainment.
> 
> I guess you COULD argue that you are exerting your fingers but is any one actually going to argue that it is physically challenging to cube for a long period of time? (And then there is chess... I love you chess but your NOT a sport)



Offtopic: This is one of my favourite subjects  What is the definition of sport?

If we go by your definition then I have some questions:
Is bowling a sport?
Is snooker a sport?
Is golf a sport?

You can't really argue that any of the above examples are "physically challenging to do for a long period of time" as you said yourself. 

And if you answer that those are not sport then where do you draw the line?
Is baseball a sport?
Is javelin throw or shot put a sport? (In competition you only do 3 or 6 "throws" and that's it. Not really physically exhausting...)


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## biscuit (May 29, 2015)

tseitsei said:


> Offtopic: This is one of my favourite subjects  What is the definition of sport?
> 
> If we go by your definition then I have some questions:
> Is bowling a sport?
> ...




I have only gone bowling two or three times but when I have gone I actully have gotten a bit tired. Too be fair it's probably because I'm super out of shape but to some it can be. That being said I'm not sure I would classify bowling a sport. It's closer to a sport then speed solving I would say but IDK. 

Snooker is like billiards right? If so the answer is no.

I have never golfed and I'm really not sure.

Yes. Baseball is a sport. You go catch a couple of innings in the heat and tell me baseball is not a sport. There is a lot of down time yes (if you are not the pitcher or catcher) but there is a lot of effort that goes into baseball. 

Sure javelin and shot are over quick but it takes a lot of physical ability to throw a ten pound metal ball far. If you were too throw for hours on end you would become tired. In cubing you can cube for hours without getting tired.


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## tseitsei (May 29, 2015)

biscuit said:


> I have only gone bowling two or three times but when I have gone I actully have gotten a bit tired. Too be fair it's probably because I'm super out of shape but to some it can be. That being said I'm not sure I would classify bowling a sport. It's closer to a sport then speed solving I would say but IDK.
> 
> Snooker is like billiards right? If so the answer is no.
> 
> ...



So if I can do something for a long period of time without getting tired it's not sport? Am I understanding you correctly?

Then by that definition baseball definitely shouldn't be a sport (except for the pitcher) since most of the time most of the players just stand still on the field or sit on the bench waiting for their turn to (try to) hit the ball. Most of the batters still just miss and outfield players don't have to do anything... You can definitely play it hours on end without really getting physically too tired (if you are not the pitcher).

But yeah... IMO it's a gliding scale and not so much binary. Some things are more "sporty" than others and it's hard to define... I'll stop talking about this now


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## biscuit (May 29, 2015)

tseitsei said:


> So if I can do something for a long period of time without getting tired it's not sport? Am I understanding you correctly?
> 
> Then by that definition baseball definitely shouldn't be a sport (except for the pitcher) since most of the time most of the players just stand still on the field or sit on the bench waiting for their turn to (try to) hit the ball. Most of the batters still just miss and outfield players don't have to do anything... You can definitely play it hours on end without really getting physically too tired (if you are not the pitcher).
> 
> But yeah... IMO it's a gliding scale and not so much binary. Some things are more "sporty" than others and it's hard to define... I'll stop talking about this now



I would say that if you don't get tired after hours of doing it then it's PROBABLY not a sport. Can I ask how long it's been since you have played baseball on an organized team? First off both the pitcher and the catcher do a lot every pitch (trust me I'm a catcher) And I would argue that while it doesn't look like the other players are doing a lot if they are doing what they should be doing then every play they are moving. Weather it's covering a bag backing some one up or just going to wards a ball to possibly make a play then there is movement even if it may not be as much as say football or soccer. When you are younger the outfield is where you go if you are terrible but as you get older it REALLY comes into play. If you have your outfielders playing in the infield any decent hit in the air or even an easy popup is at least a triple. Not to mention in the case of a runner stealing backing up a throw, getting involved in a hot box etc

Sorry that was a bit off topic but baseball is the only sport I really play and care about


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## Phinagin (May 29, 2015)

biscuit said:


> I looked up the definition of grid and this is what I got
> 
> A framework of spaced bars that are parallel to or cross each other.
> A network of lines that cross each other to form a series of squares or rectangles.
> ...


Actually both of those definitions say that the lines must be straight, you have to "read between the lines".

The first definition states "bars that are parallel", and since parallel lines must be straight by definition, the lines on cube must be straight. 
The second definition states "to form a series of squares or rectangles". If you can find a true square or rectangle without straight lines, I would be very impressed. 

So no, the two definitions do not include the phrase "straight lines" but by using the context of the definition, it does refer to that. 

If the patent for Seven Towns does say "grid shape", then any cube with rounded edges, centers, or corners should theoretically be legal. I guess we may be seeing more puzzles similar in exterior appearance to gans 356, meiying, zhisheng, etc.


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## AllTheCubes (May 29, 2015)

Also, shouldn't the DianMa also be legal, seeing as the article says that it must be "Equally spaced"?


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## Michael Womack (May 29, 2015)

AllTheCubes said:


> Also, shouldn't the DianMa also be legal, seeing as the article says that it must be "Equally spaced"?



From what I understand it doesn't effect pillowed 3x3s or 3x3s like the Dianma that have unportional pieces.


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## AllTheCubes (May 29, 2015)

Michael Womack said:


> From what I understand it doesn't effect pillowed 3x3s or 3x3s like the Dianma that have unportional pieces.


That's what I thought. There's got to be a few loopholes through the copyright.


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## AlexMaass (May 29, 2015)

cashis said:


> Thanks Alex!


no problem!


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## Tony Fisher (May 29, 2015)

As someone who is vehemently against KOs even I think this is ridiculous. Seven Towns is tarnishing the name of Erno Rubik with these ludicrous actions. Not only are they wrong but to have different rules in different countries is just plain stupid.


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## biscuit (May 30, 2015)

Phinagin said:


> Actually both of those definitions say that the lines must be straight, you have to "read between the lines".
> 
> The first definition states "bars that are parallel", and since parallel lines must be straight by definition, the lines on cube must be straight.
> The second definition states "to form a series of squares or rectangles". If you can find a true square or rectangle without straight lines, I would be very impressed.
> ...



IMO grid shape is kinda up for interpretation and even grid with your definition is slightly flexible and could cover mostly square pieces. I'm not a lawyer though.

Another thing is that they still are parallel lines. If you put a line through the center of each row then they are parallel. It doesn't ever say that the pieces them self are the grid but they are placed in a grid shape. Like I said not a lawyer so if any one with a law back ground would like to clear this up that would be great!


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## supercube (May 30, 2015)

I thought of something else. in the EU the the exclusive trademark could not exist without the exclusive patent. if there was no patent then there would be no monopoly from the start and so no trademark beyond the logo. you could argue that the trademark, in the sense that it makes free market competition impossible, was absolutely without a doubt a windfall to the patent owner and as such should lie exclusively with the patent holder (currently no one).

the original logo used by rubik's was text "rubik's cube". the logo has since been changed to include a picture of the toy probably to establish this grey area of trademark squating. that does not mean that you have 43 quintillion trademarked two dimensional logos. no corporation can be awarded that many logo's. thats like saying any picture of the clouds in the sky in any configuration is a trademark. any letters in the alphabet in any sequence is a trademark? its clear ********. the courts failed.


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## LNZ (May 30, 2015)

One thing I can say for sure now is that people won't be selling their non-Rubik 3x3's they have in their possession for any reason. 

Keep your unused 3x3 speed cubes, even if they are old or not the best one out there at the moment.


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## cubernya (May 30, 2015)

LNZ said:


> One thing I can say for sure now is that people won't be selling their non-Rubik 3x3's they have in their possession for any reason.
> 
> Keep your unused 3x3 speed cubes, even if they are old or not the best one out there at the moment.



Just make sure it doesn't cross international borders (or visit the EU at any point) and you're all set.


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## Tempus (May 31, 2015)

biscuit said:


> I honestly don't agree that cubing is a sport. It's a competitive activity but not a sport. Here is the definition I found on "sport"
> 
> An activity involving physical exertion and skill in which an individual or team competes against another or others for entertainment.
> 
> I guess you COULD argue that you are exerting your fingers but is any one actually going to argue that it is physically challenging to cube for a long period of time? (And then there is chess... I love you chess but your NOT a sport)


I believe the International Olympic Committee would beg to differ. The World Chess Federation (FIDE) is one of the largest sports federations in the world, and is officially recognized by the IOC as a sports federation. ( See http://www.olympic.org/chess ) Given this fact, I see no reason to think that cubing is not a sport. The problem with the definition of "sport" that you are using is that it's too narrow. Most words have multiple meanings. By way of analogy, the term "meat" _can_ mean specifically mammal flesh, but in another sense it can also refer to poultry, nuts, fruit, and a variety of other things. (Just trying to get to the _meat_ of the issue. )


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## Isaac Lai (May 31, 2015)

Tempus said:


> I believe the International Olympic Committee would beg to differ. The World Chess Federation (FIDE) is one of the largest sports federations in the world, and is officially recognized by the IOC as a sports federation. ( See http://www.olympic.org/chess ) Given this fact, I see no reason to think that cubing is not a sport. The problem with the definition of "sport" that you are using is that it's too narrow. Most words have multiple meanings. By way of analogy, the term "meat" _can_ mean specifically mammal flesh, but in another sense it can also refer to poultry, nuts, fruit, and a variety of other things. (Just trying to get to the _meat_ of the issue. )



To be honest, cubing arguably involves even more physical exertion than chess so in that sense, cubing should be considered a sport.


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## Logiqx (Jun 1, 2015)

I just stumbled across this article:

http://www.reddie.co.uk/news-and-resources/ip-developments/rubiks-cube-unlocking-3d-trade-marks



> There are strict rules surrounding the registrability of three dimensional shapes as trade marks. These rules aim to prevent an ‘abuse’ of the trade mark system that would arise from the grant of an indefinite monopoly right on the shape of an article in commerce. The basis of Simba Toys’ invalidity action was that the protection afforded to the Rubik’s cube was in violation of these rules.



The outcome of the Simba case has gone against this aim and the court has essentially granted Seven Towns a monopoly on 3x3 cubes.

Rubik's brand is clearly inferior to the popular speed cube brands from our perspective. The Rubik's product is not "fit for purpose" when it comes to breaking records and it is wrong that other manufacturers should not be allowed to create better products.


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## mDiPalma (Jun 1, 2015)

Logiqx said:


> ... it is wrong that other manufacturers should not be allowed to create better products.



Anyone can make cubes. You just can't SELL them.

Also, the only thing vendors have to do to work around this is to sell THROUGH 7towns. In other words, they need to enter in a contractual agreement with 7towns that provides both parties with some cut of the profit. I'm sure 7towns will agree to just about anything, because they will be increasing their net profits for literally no reason.


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## Logiqx (Jun 1, 2015)

mDiPalma said:


> Anyone can make cubes. You just can't SELL them.



Ok. Cube companies need to become charities, giving free cubes to needy cubers. They can be funded by public donations which may or may not come from cubers. I jest of course...



mDiPalma said:


> Also, the only thing vendors have to do to work around this is to sell THROUGH 7towns. In other words, they need to enter in a contractual agreement with 7towns that provides both parties with some cut of the profit. I'm sure 7towns will agree to just about anything, because they will be increasing their net profits for literally no reason.



That thought had also occurred to me but it may not be so straightforward. Seven Towns would need to be satisfied with the build quality and cubes which can be pulled apart into small pieces may be deemed unsafe for small children. The standard Rubik's models are unlikely to be a choking hazard for a 2 year old who picks it up but a loosely tensioned speed cube might be an issue. It's clearly a topic in the minds of Rubik's brand as well as the obvious financial reasons.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-32631029

David Kremer, president of Rubik's Brand Limited:



> "Pirate cubes are now being sold which can be dangerous, with sharp edges and so on."


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## Phinagin (Jun 1, 2015)

Logiqx said:


> The standard Rubik's models are unlikely to be a choking hazard for a 2 year old who picks it up but a loosely tensioned speed cube might be an issue. It's clearly a topic in the minds of Runik's brand as well as the obvious financial reasons.


 Couldn't the crappy stickers that come with a Rubik's brand be a choking hazard, considering how easily they come off. Also having someone try to turn a Rubik's brand might make them pull a muscle or something.
Seriously that is the most outrageous claim I have ever seen.


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## CubeCow (Jun 1, 2015)

Michael Womack said:


> I feel like that Rubik's next step is going to be to copyright the word and shape "Cube"



Kinda like when Candy Crush tried to copyright the word candy? That'll be entertaining.


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## molarmanful (Jun 1, 2015)

The Cong's design package does say "14+"...


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## Myachii (Jun 1, 2015)

I find it amusing how Rubik's call much more superior, much better value for money, much faster cubes "fakes".

Nobody is trying to imitate Rubik's. Because their cubes are just ****

What they're gonna do is make it impossible to become world class at the Rubik's cube without living outside of the EU. Because all of the best cubes with be illegal to purchase in the EU.

What does the law say about people travelling to other countries and purchasing cubes and bringing them back? Could always set up a PO Box in Egypt or something and order my 3x3's there xD

I do hope that they don't extend this to the 4x4 and 5x5 cube. People are pissed enough as is.


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## molarmanful (Jun 1, 2015)

Myachii said:


> What they're gonna do is make it impossible to become world class at the Rubik's cube without living outside of the EU. Because all of the best cubes with be illegal to purchase in the EU.



Good luck Mats. You were a good cuber ;(


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## Z0chary (Jun 1, 2015)

I'm about to go on a trip to Europe. Should I be worried about bringing my cubes? Is there a chance that they will be confiscated/destroyed?


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## biscuit (Jun 1, 2015)

Tempus said:


> I believe the International Olympic Committee would beg to differ. The World Chess Federation (FIDE) is one of the largest sports federations in the world, and is officially recognized by the IOC as a sports federation. ( See http://www.olympic.org/chess ) Given this fact, I see no reason to think that cubing is not a sport. The problem with the definition of "sport" that you are using is that it's too narrow. Most words have multiple meanings. By way of analogy, the term "meat" _can_ mean specifically mammal flesh, but in another sense it can also refer to poultry, nuts, fruit, and a variety of other things. (Just trying to get to the _meat_ of the issue. )



The definition I used is the first result that I got. I didn't have to dig for it. I tried to find a definition that doesn't require it to be physically taxing. Let's face it. Cubing does NOT take a ton of energy. It's not physically hard it's not a sport.

And no chess is not a sport. Period.


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## Logiqx (Jun 1, 2015)

Z0chary said:


> I'm about to go on a trip to Europe. Should I be worried about bringing my cubes? Is there a chance that they will be confiscated/destroyed?



I've been flying in and out of the UK with cubes in my hand luggage and hold luggage several times this year.

The last time was just a week ago so I wouldn't expect any problems.


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## Ross The Boss (Jun 1, 2015)

biscuit said:


> And no chess is not a sport. *Period.*



well how about you get off your period and become a bit more open minded... and speaking of minds, there is a category of sport dubbed "mind sports." basically, these are sports whose exertion is more cognitive than physical. FMC and chess fall into this category of _sport_. as for speed solving, i would consider that a sport in the traditional, non mind way. consider the huge amount of muscles required in a speed solve. i think its fair to say that every, or almost every, hand and finger muscle is used during a speedsolve as well as some controlling the wrists. additionally, these muscles arent just chilling out the whole time. they are getting a great work out. it is just that the skill of the cuber usually improves along with his finger speed so the effort exerted wont be as noticeable. though it is noticeable in cases where a cuber does a bunch of OH solves after a while of neglecting that event or when someone like me does 7x7: my lookahead and recognition are more advanced than the required muscles are conditioned.


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## biscuit (Jun 2, 2015)

Ross The Boss said:


> well how about you get off your period and become a bit more open minded... and speaking of minds, there is a category of sport dubbed "mind sports." basically, these are sports whose exertion is more cognitive than physical. FMC and chess fall into this category of _sport_. as for speed solving, i would consider that a sport in the traditional, non mind way. consider the huge amount of muscles required in a speed solve. i think its fair to say that every, or almost every, hand and finger muscle is used during a speedsolve as well as some controlling the wrists. additionally, these muscles arent just chilling out the whole time. they are getting a great work out. it is just that the skill of the cuber usually improves along with his finger speed so the effort exerted wont be as noticeable. though it is noticeable in cases where a cuber does a bunch of OH solves after a while of neglecting that event or when someone like me does 7x7: my lookahead and recognition are more advanced than the required muscles are conditioned.



I would disagree that your fingers/hand get a good work out (unless you're using a rubik's brand). I'm fine with calling chess and speedcubing a mental sport but it does not take a lot of energy to do and it's not physically hard. Maybe I am being a bit close minded but I just don's see any way that you can argue that speedcubing or chess is a sport by the traditional definition.


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## cashis (Jun 2, 2015)

biscuit said:


> I would disagree that your fingers/hand get a good work out (unless you're using a rubik's brand). I'm fine with calling chess and speedcubing a mental sport but it does not take a lot of energy to do and it's not physically hard. Maybe I am being a bit close minded but I just don's see any way that you can argue that speedcubing or chess is a sport by the traditional definition.



Have you ever done more than 50 OH solves?


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## biscuit (Jun 2, 2015)

cashis said:


> Have you ever done more than 50 OH solves?



at a time no. Reading through the post again I saw his comment on OH. That's a good point. This is not covered by any definition which I can find (and people may call me a hypocrite for this) but I think it should require your entire (or at least most of your) body to be tired to be considered a sport. Yes with a lot of OH solves your HAND can become tired/begin hurting but the rest of the body? Not so much


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## 2180161 (Jun 2, 2015)

cashis said:


> Have you ever done more than 50 OH solves?



No, but I imagine it does get quite tiring.


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## cashis (Jun 2, 2015)

biscuit said:


> at a time no. Reading through the post again I saw his comment on OH. That's a good point. This is not covered by any definition which I can find (and people may call me a hypocrite for this) but I think it should require your entire (or at least most of your) body to be tired to be considered a sport. Yes with a lot of OH solves your HAND can become tired/begin hurting but the rest of the body? Not so much



Well with soccer your legs only get worked out. In American football, the kicker is only used a few times a game and he still plays a sport. Point being, there are not requirements for how much of your body a "sport" uses. You can have whatever opinion you want, but saying cubing doesnt exercise muscles that other sports dont is incorrect. 

Tldr; sport is a loose term and opinionated, but cubing definitely requires strenuous activity on certain body and mental functions.


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## qqwref (Jun 2, 2015)

IMO: Cubing is a sport in the sense that chess, archery, golf, mind sports, etc. are sports, but it is not an athletic activity, and a lot of the time (but not all) that is what people mean by the word sport. Cubing shares some aspects with big-name sports like football, soccer, and American football, but not all.

For what it's worth:


wikipedia said:


> "Sport" comes from the Old French desport meaning "leisure", with the oldest definition in English from around 1300 being "anything humans find amusing or entertaining".
> 
> Other meanings include gambling and events staged for the purpose of gambling; hunting; and games and diversions, including ones that require exercise. Roget's defines the noun sport as an "activity engaged in for relaxation and amusement" with synonyms including diversion and recreation.


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## molarmanful (Jun 2, 2015)

Man, we're really off topic.

Any developments in terms of Seven Towns? New policies, rules, court cases, etc.?


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## biscuit (Jun 2, 2015)

molarmanful said:


> Man, we're really off topic.



What makes you think that?


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## TomasCZ (Jun 2, 2015)

Hi, I recently ordered MoyuHualong, does this mean it's gonna be destroyed by the customs ?


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## MarcelP (Jun 2, 2015)

TomasCZ said:


> Hi, I recently ordered MoyuHualong, does this mean it's gonna be destroyed by the customs ?



I highly doubt customs will do anything about small packages containing cubes. I just ordered some cubes full with confident


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## tseitsei (Jun 2, 2015)

TomasCZ said:


> Hi, I recently ordered MoyuHualong, does this mean it's gonna be destroyed by the customs ?



Probably no. Most shops I have ordered from just write something like "gifts" on the top of the box and customs have no way of checking every package that travels through them...


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## Eduard Khil (Jun 2, 2015)

Yay so cubezz and lightake gets all the 3x3 market share from EU


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## Petro Leum (Jun 2, 2015)

why are seven towns doing this? how does it aid their business?

as i see it up to this point, nobody is every going to use rubiks products for speedcubing, rubiks products are still frequently bought by non-cubers, and all this trouble just gets them alot of bad credit.


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## Tony Fisher (Jun 4, 2015)

biscuit said:


> honestly don't agree that cubing is a sport. It's a competitive activity but not a sport. Here is the definition I found on "sport"
> 
> An activity involving physical exertion and skill in which an individual or team competes against another or others for entertainment.
> 
> I guess you COULD argue that you are exerting your fingers but is any one actually going to argue that it is physically challenging to cube for a long period of time? (And then there is chess... I love you chess but your NOT a sport)


Then please explain how 50 metre rifle prone is a sport and has been in the Olympics since 1912.


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## ~Adam~ (Jun 4, 2015)

qqwref said:


> ...I'm pretty sure Erno Rubik was not the first to think of a solid cube divided into 3 layers on each axis. The Soma cube is a 3x3x3 take-apart puzzle developed in 1933, and is often produced in ways which emphasize the 27 cubes and not the individual pieces. Here is an old one in dark wood that could just as easily be an unstickered wooden Rubik's Cube.



So the patent now extends to an unstickered cube which visually has been produced before the Rubik's cube.

Surely that's evidence enough to overthrow the court decision?


It seems ridiculous that Seven Towns gets so much free advertising from the cubing community who don't use their products because they are unsuitable for our needs. Do they seriously not understand how much more their business would be effected by the cubing community disappearing than by 'KO' speedcubes being sold?


I'm in contact with a Seven Town's representative because they supply medals for comps in the UK. I wonder if they would still seize packages if I had them sent to her work address then collected them. 

Just a bunch of thoughts. Sorry they are so disconnected.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## supercavitation (Jun 4, 2015)

cube-o-holic said:


> I'm in contact with a Seven Town's representative because they supply medals for comps in the UK. I wonder if they would still seize packages if I had them sent to her work address then collected them.



Assuming it wouldn't get anyone in trouble or fired, please, please, please try this.


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## Petro Leum (Jun 5, 2015)

supercavitation said:


> Assuming it wouldn't get anyone in trouble or fired, please, please, please try this.



Assuming it would, omg PLEASE try this


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## supercube (Jun 5, 2015)

http://www.reddie.co.uk/news-and-resources/ip-developments/rubiks-cube-unlocking-3d-trade-marks

reading this now. the courts decided that because you can make a stickerless cube that is not trademarked, then in theory, rubik's does not have an automatic monopoly. however stickerless cubes are in fact not accepted by the WCA. so the courts unknowingly decided that rubik's can have a monopoly on cubes used in speedcubing in the EU. anyone who lives in the EU can reopen the case for the public based on this new evidence.


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## Please Dont Ask (Jun 5, 2015)

I am SO LOST!


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## Pixel 6 (Jun 8, 2015)

supercube said:


> http://www.reddie.co.uk/news-and-resources/ip-developments/rubiks-cube-unlocking-3d-trade-marks
> 
> reading this now. the courts decided that because you can make a stickerless cube that is not trademarked, then in theory, rubik's does not have an automatic monopoly. however stickerless cubes are in fact not accepted by the WCA. so the courts unknowingly decided that rubik's can have a monopoly on cubes used in speedcubing in the EU. anyone who lives in the EU can reopen the case for the public based on this new evidence.



All of the listings I had that were for stickerless were removed as well. 

As a side note, for cubes that I had listed in the EU that I had NEVER sold internationally, they were also removed. It seems all that was required was for it to say "3x3" and "cube". 

So simply having the option up for them to be sold internationally was enough.


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## biscuit (Jun 8, 2015)

Pixel 6 said:


> All of the listings I had that were for stickerless were removed as well.
> 
> As a side note, for cubes that I had listed in the EU that I had NEVER sold internationally, they were also removed. It seems all that was required was for it to say "3x3" and "cube".
> 
> So simply having the option up for them to be sold internationally was enough.



file a complaint with amazon? Say that they don't have the right to take down the stickerless cubes


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## Aikho (Jun 9, 2015)

My green HuaLong DIY got here safe and sound, so I'd guess DIY is fine and it's probably enough not buying in bulk so it looks like it's for reselling purposes.


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## nvpendsey (Jun 16, 2015)

I just got an idea.One could sell something like this

Donation to (seller name)
Description : support (seller name)in appreciation for your donation (seller name) will send you get a very special gift.


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## stoic (Jun 16, 2015)

nvpendsey said:


> I just got an idea.One could sell something like this
> 
> Donation to (seller name)
> Description : support (seller name)in appreciation for your donation (seller name) will send you get a very special gift.


What if customs think that your free gift infringes Seven Towns' trademark?


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## Username (Jun 18, 2015)

https://eu.rubiks.com/speed-cubing

Even Rubik's themselves have a picture of a cube with a Lubix sticker on on their own webpage, I'm confused


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## FailCuber (Jun 18, 2015)

Wow that sucks.


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## Tim Major (Jun 18, 2015)

Username said:


> https://eu.rubiks.com/speed-cubing
> 
> Even Rubik's themselves have a picture of a cube with a Lubix sticker on on their own webpage, I'm confused



Regardless of whether the patent covers all 3x3s or not, Lubix is a registered copyright since 2010 so can't Lubix just appeal to eBay and submit their own take down notice for copyright infringement, keeping documents a long the way in case Rubik's try actually taking legal action? etc

*I'm not a lawyer, have never done a law class or anything, though I am doing commercial law NEXT semester!!


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## SpeedCubeReview (Jun 18, 2015)

Username said:


> https://eu.rubiks.com/speed-cubing
> 
> Even Rubik's themselves have a picture of a cube with a Lubix sticker on on their own webpage, I'm confused



Oh my, I have seen that image a lot but missed the sticker. That is crazy.


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## nvpendsey (Jun 26, 2015)

If one can bring cubes into EU as personal property, one can go to a foreign nation (non EU of course)and bring back bags of cubes.Then these cube could be sold according to the coupon or free gift idea as suggested previously.


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## Tony Fisher (Jun 26, 2015)

nvpendsey said:


> I just got an idea.One could sell something like this
> 
> Donation to (seller name)
> Description : support (seller name)in appreciation for your donation (seller name) will send you get a very special gift.


Pretty sure they would just laugh at such attempts. Imagine the same thing happening for 1000 pirated copies of a new movie. I have had parcels stopped with low declaration values and asked to prove them before they would be delivered. They can spot a scam a mile off.


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## darckhitet (Jun 27, 2015)

I don't see any Lubix logo there neither i see any kind of speed cube


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## SpeedCubeReview (Jun 27, 2015)

darckhitet said:


> I don't see any Lubix logo there neither i see any kind of speed cube



The center sticker is on the left side. It is definitely a Lubix logo.


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## jms (Jul 31, 2015)

I have been selling speedcubes on Ebay for the last 8 months and I received a takedown notice from Ebay just yesterday. I argued my case but was politely told to take it up with Seven Towns.

I have emailed them and I'm waiting for a response. I didn't realise this was so widespread.

I guess they are clamping down.


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## fiftyniner (Jul 31, 2015)

jms said:


> I have been selling speedcubes on Ebay for the last 8 months and I received a takedown notice from Ebay just yesterday. I argued my case but was politely told to take it up with Seven Towns.
> 
> I have emailed them and I'm waiting for a response. I didn't realise this was so widespread.
> 
> I guess they are clamping down.



Think ebay took the path of least resistance. I believe the _patent has expired_ (not sure how accurate this wiki is but I think the thrust is more towards 3x3)

To quote:
_"Taking advantage of an initial shortage of Cubes, many imitations and variations appeared, many of which may have violated one or more patents.
Today, the patents have expired and many Chinese companies produce copies of, and in some cases improvements upon, the Rubik and V-Cube designs. The most popular are Bao Daqing's (包大庆) DaYan (大雁, literally Great Goose) company, which produces the GuHong (孤鸿, lit. Lone Swan Goose), ZhanChi (展翅, lit. Spreading Wings) and now PanShi (磐石, lit. Solid Rock) models, and the YJ/Moyu company's Weilong, Aolong, and Hualong models. They are often preferred over the originals by expert speed cubers because of their ease of movement."
_
_Also:
Rubik applied for more patents in 1980, including another Hungarian patent on October 28. In the United States, Rubik was granted U.S. Patent 4,378,116 on March 29, 1983, for the Cube. This patent expired in 2000._

An old thread:https://www.speedsolving.com/forum/showthread.php?16058-Rubik-s-Cube-Patent


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## Stefan (Jul 31, 2015)

fiftyniner said:


> I believe the _patent has expired_



1. Totally true.
2. Totally irrelevant.


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## CubeWizard23 (Aug 1, 2015)

Pixel 6 said:


> I want to make this part a bit of a productive rant, based on my observations about other products in the world.
> 
> I fully support and agree that if a cube manufacturer illegally replicates a Rubik's product, and packages it as such, with the Rubik's brand logo, they are in fact stealing money from Rubik's and hurting the cubing community in general.
> 
> ...



*Taken From Wikipedia* 
A generic trademark, also known as a genericized trademark or proprietary eponym, is a trademark or brand name that has become the generic name for, or synonymous with, a general class of product or service, usually against the intentions of the trademark's holder.

A trademark is said to become genericized when it began as a distinctive product identifier but has changed in meaning to become generic. A trademark typically becomes "genericized" when the products or services with which it is associated have acquired substantial market dominance or mind share such that the primary meaning of the genericized trademark becomes the product or service itself rather than an indication of source for the product or service. A trademark thus popularized has its legal protection at risk in some countries such as the United States and United Kingdom, as its intellectual property rights in the trademark may be lost and competitors enabled to use the genericized trademark to describe their similar products, unless the owner of an affected trademark works sufficiently to correct and prevent such broad use.[1][2][3]

Aspirin,[4] heroin[5] and thermos[6] are examples of trademarks that have become genericized in the US.

Genericization or "loss of secondary meaning" may be either among the general population or among just a subpopulation, for example, people who work in a particular industry. Some examples of the latter type from the vocabulary of physicians include the names Luer-Lok (Luer lock), Phoroptor (phoropter), and Port-a-Cath (portacath), which have genericized mind share (among physicians) because (1) the users may not realize that the term is a brand name rather than a medical eponym or generic-etymology term, and (2) no alternative generic name for the idea readily comes to mind. Most often, genericization occurs because of heavy advertising that fails to provide an alternative generic name or that uses the trademark in similar fashion to generic terms. Thus, when the Otis Elevator Company advertised that it offered "the latest in elevator and escalator design," it was using the well-known generic term "elevator" and Otis's trademark "Escalator" for moving staircases in the same way. The Trademark Office and the courts concluded that, if Otis used their trademark in that generic way, they could not stop Westinghouse from calling its moving staircases "escalators", and a valuable trademark was lost through genericization.
*End Quote*
At least in our Sub-population Rubik's has become synonymous with 3x3 cube (WCA even calls the 3x3x3 event Rubik's Cube) it is ridiculous for them [Seven Towns Ltd.] to do this!


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## SHualong (Aug 4, 2015)

This is absolutely idiotic. I know that many speedcubers would rather quit 3x3 than use a Rubik's brand. This won't get them anywhere and they should concentrate on making a decent speedcube rather than trying to force cubers to switch from one of the magnificent speedcubes of Moyu, Dayan, Fangshi etc. to something from the 1980s.

Anyway, is there a possibilty that all non-Rubik's 3x3s will be banned from competitions?


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## supercavitation (Aug 4, 2015)

SHualong said:


> Anyway, is there a possibilty that all non-Rubik's 3x3s will be banned from competitions?



Not happening (too many people would stop competing), though it might get progressively harder to get 3x3s in Europe.


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## biscuit (Aug 5, 2015)

SHualong said:


> Is there a possibilty that all non-Rubik's 3x3s will be banned from competitions?



The regs are made by the WCA Not Seven Towns

WCA != Seven towns


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## Michael Womack (Aug 5, 2015)

biscuit said:


> The regs are made by the WCA !Seven towns
> 
> WCA != Seven towns



What?!?!


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## molarmanful (Aug 5, 2015)

Michael Womack said:


> What?!?!


Translation: The regulations are made by the WCA, not Seven Towns. WCA is not the same as Seven Towns.


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## biscuit (Aug 5, 2015)

Sorry using coding lingo (is lingo the right word?) ! means not. So != means Not Equal or Not Equal too.


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## Michael Womack (Aug 5, 2015)

molarmanful said:


> Translation: The regulations are made by the WCA, not Seven Towns. WCA is not the same as Seven Towns.



That's what I thought.


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## stoic (May 25, 2016)

Breaking news: Seven Towns trademark declared invalid.
Link 1
Link 2

(Thanks to Oskar van Deventer)


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## DGCubes (May 25, 2016)

stoic said:


> Breaking news: Seven Towns trademark declared invalid.
> Link 1
> Link 2
> 
> (Thanks to Oskar van Deventer)



Awesome!


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## mark49152 (May 25, 2016)

From the document: The Advocate General’s Opinion is not binding on the Court of Justice. It is the role of the Advocates 
General to propose to the Court, in complete independence, a legal solution to the cases for which they are 
responsible. The Judges of the Court are now beginning their deliberations in this case. Judgment will be 
given at a later date.


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## Loiloiloi (May 25, 2016)

*sheds a tear of joy*


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## Tony Fisher (May 26, 2016)

Certainly a step in the right direction though as stated above nothing binding yet. If it succeeds I wonder who tells customs to stop stealing our puzzles or ebay to stop removing legit auctions. I bet Seven Towns won't.


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## Logiqx (May 26, 2016)

Tony Fisher said:


> Certainly a step in the right direction though as stated above nothing binding yet. If it succeeds I wonder who tells customs to stop stealing our puzzles or ebay to stop removing legit auctions. I bet Seven Towns won't.



What happens when UK customs seize packages? Do they notify the recipient / sender?

I'm awaiting a delivery where USPS is taking longer than expected. Last update:

"Your item departed a transfer airport in Heathrow, London, UNITED KINGDOM on May 22, 2016 at 11:00 am. The item is currently in transit to the destination."


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## Loiloiloi (May 26, 2016)

Logiqx said:


> What happens when UK customs seize packages? Do they notify the recipient / sender?
> 
> I'm awaiting a delivery where USPS is taking longer than expected. Last update:
> 
> "Your item departed a transfer airport in Heathrow, London, UNITED KINGDOM on May 22, 2016 at 11:00 am. The item is currently in transit to the destination."


1. You will get an empty package or letter saying your property has been confiscated. It will probably be a photo copy of the customs regulation violated 

2. A short time later, you will receive a letter from customs telling you how to claim your property or it will be automatically forfeited in 30 days. 
Source: http://www.steroidology.com/forum/a...-when-your-package-seized-customs-chesty.html


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## Tony Fisher (May 26, 2016)

What loiloiloi says can obviously happen but it's by no means the norm. Usually you would not receive any package but you would receive a letter or email from customs. They would tell you why the item has been seized and give you the chance to challenge.
In my experience when parcels seem to vanish they have either been sent to the wrong location and eventually get redirected back to you or they have been lost or stolen so the tracking suddenly stops. I would suggest phoning Royal Mail since they have additional tracking info.


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## Logiqx (May 26, 2016)

Thanks Tony.


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## SimonV (May 29, 2016)

Does this mean that *NO MORE *3x3's can be sold in the EU ? Thanks Seven Towns


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## AlphaSheep (May 29, 2016)

SimonV said:


> Does this mean that *NO MORE *3x3's can be sold in the EU ? Thanks Seven Towns


No it doesn't. Read the entire thread. Especially the last few posts, in particular, this one:



stoic said:


> Breaking news: Seven Towns trademark declared invalid.
> Link 1
> Link 2
> 
> (Thanks to Oskar van Deventer)


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## bulletpal (May 29, 2016)

Oh, no! I am not the fastest runner in the race! What am I going to do? I could train... nah, I'll just change the rules, so that I am the only one that can run! BRILLIANT! I win by forfeit! 

Congrats Seven Towns, you just made the entire cubing community hate you. Well, except for Jimmy over there, but he can only solve the 1x1. He is the equivalent of a rock, in this community.


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## ozie (Nov 11, 2016)

It's over. Finally.

http://curia.europa.eu/juris/document/document.jsf?docid=185244&doclang=EN


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## Logiqx (Nov 11, 2016)

I forgot to post this yesterday...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37938454


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## Dom (Nov 11, 2016)

That's great news! You shouldn't be able to patent a SHAPE!


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## Cubister (Nov 12, 2016)

This wasn't about a patent, but a stupid trademark which contained a shape and a certain functionality.


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## genericcuber666 (Nov 12, 2016)

start a law suit against them (as dumb as it wseems it will work) once a cube shop fights back to 7towns since they dont have any proper reason for doing this they will lose and wont try to do this again


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## AlphaSheep (Nov 12, 2016)

genericcuber666 said:


> start a law suit against them (as dumb as it wseems it will work) once a cube shop fights back to 7towns since they dont have any proper reason for doing this they will lose and wont try to do this again


Umm... Didn't you read the previous posts before you commented? 

It (isn't/wasn't) as simple as you think it (is/was). Once a cube shop (fights/fought) back, it (will take/took) over a decade for the courts to decide on the matter, and in all that time Seven Towns (won't/didn't) stop claiming that any cube that is not a Rubik's brand is an illegal infringement on their intellectual property.

Read the links posted 3 and 4 posts before yours to see whether the present or past tense is appropriate.



Spoiler: Quick summary of what actually happened



A manufacturer (Simba Toys) started legal action against Seven Towns in 2006. The legal action dragged on for 8 years, and in the end Seven Towns _won_ and Simba Toys had to pay all legal costs for both sides (Exact opposite of what you said would happen). Simba Toys took it higher to the European Court of Justice and the Advocate General gave a non-binding opinion earlier this year that the shape was critical to the function, and the trademark was being used to protect intellectual property that should have been protected by a patent (it originally was, but the patent expired years ago). What's happened now is that the European Court of Justice has actually made a ruling that basically agrees with the opinion given back in May

Worth pointing out, as much as people don't like patents, if the patent hadn't expired, this case would likely have gone completely the other way.


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## genericcuber666 (Nov 12, 2016)

really? thats crazy


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