# Experimental Methods



## Pseudoprogrammer (Apr 27, 2010)

I've recently gotten back into cubing. You may remember me as the (Advanced) Human Thistlethwaite guy. Before I left, and currently, I've always been obsessed with the creation of new ways to solve the cube (When I first got into cubing I was saddened that nearly everyone used basically the same method (Fridrich)). I'm often found throwing out ideas in the chat room (Much to Dan's dislike ;D). I think it'd be neat to have a specific thread for this (Sorry if it's already been done). I'd like to hear all of you guys' crazy new ideas!

One I was working on before I left was basically a speedcubing version of Ryan Heise's "Heise" method. It made the penultimate step into 57 algorithms and averaged in the low 40s for movecount on speedcubing, and in the 30s if you sat down and tried to get a low movecount for a few minutes. I still think it's a rather neat idea, although recognition is tricky.

Most of you know me (if you do know me) from my Human Thistlethwaite tutorials on youtube. I developed an Advanced method which used around 100 algorithms total to achieve an average of 43ish move solves that required no thinking, just recitation of algorithms. However since it is so contrary to human thought (building with blocks, chunks, etc) recognition was difficult for some steps.

My most recent idea was an attempt to create a method that was predominately 2-gen. Basically it works like this: Solve a 2x2x3 F2L block. Orient all edges while permuting (but not orienting) LL corners with 1 of 30ish algs. This makes the entire cube solvable by 2-gen from here on. Finish F2L with 2-gen. Use 1 of 30ish algs to orient the LL corners(they are already permuted, because they remain permuted due to the 2-gen nature of solving the F2L after you permute them once) and solve the LL edges (which are already oriented). Averages sub 50 move count. Half of the solve is 2-gen. I think it's pretty sexy.


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## Joseph Gibney (Apr 27, 2010)

Do you know how to orient the edges and permute the 6 remaining corners after building the 2x2x3 block? The corners only need to be permuted relatively, that is to say the cube just needs to be put into the <R,U> subgroup so that it can be solved with RU 2-gen from that point on. However, I don't know of a nice way to do this. If you do, I'd love to hear it.

Of course, if you can get that to work, you can finish the solve with 2GLL. This orients the LL corners and permutes the LL edges. There are 50 algorithms, I believe, and they are pretty fast and relatively easy to recognize. This would ould make for a great speedcubing method, similar to zz-d but with a Petrus start instead of EO-line, but I'm a bit doubtful about that one step. Please tell us your thoughts.


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## joey (Apr 27, 2010)

Sounds interesting.
I'd like to know more about the EO+CP phase too..


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## plechoss (Apr 27, 2010)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ope1UV10FGg - you mean something like this?
In my opinion, EO + CP recognition would be too hard to do it fast.


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## Bubitrek (Apr 27, 2010)

It's cool, I want to learn this method. Where can I get algorithms for this method?


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## joey (Apr 27, 2010)

plechoss said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ope1UV10FGg - you mean something like this?
> In my opinion, EO + CP recognition would be too hard to do it fast.


That's exactly it 

Is there a way to recog without placing the two F2L corners?

And if it's a diag swap, couldn't you swap the other two corners?


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## Escher (Apr 27, 2010)

joey said:


> Is there a way to recog without placing the two F2L corners?



How about placing any two adjacent corners in either UBL & UFL or DFR & DBR?
You could recognise CP using hyperorientations on either R or U. I think.


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## joey (Apr 27, 2010)

Well I meant without placing any corners


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## Escher (Apr 27, 2010)

joey said:


> Well I meant without placing any corners



I know, I was being pedantic


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## joey (Apr 27, 2010)

You're such a pendant.


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## Pseudoprogrammer (Apr 27, 2010)

Oh wow, didn't know there would be such interest in that one method ;D I'd like to hear you guys' ideas too!

But to answer your questions, I didn't actually go into much detail on that method because I didn't think it'd garner so much interest.

Let me go into the method in detail:

Solve 2x2x3. Similar to Petrus. Not much to see here.

Now this next step seems to be the most controversial. I left out some details in my description. Before doing the algorithm certain goals must be met: Put the first layer corners in their places (they do not need to be oriented, just in their places) while assuring that you do not have 4 bad edges. By meeting these two goals you lower the alg count from the hundreds down to about 31 (not counting mirrors). Usually this pre-step only uses 3-5 moves and is really easy to recognize after a while. Then do the algorithm to permute LL corners and orient all edges.

Then you do one of 30+x (I can't remember the exact number, it's in the 30s) of algorithms that permute LL edges and orient LL corners. (I think you guys call this 2GLL? I'm not familiar with a lot of cubing terminology, I often think of ideas before knowing they've been tried and done before (Before I entered the online cubing community I thought I'd invented the tripod method)). Maybe I miscalculated, you guys said there were about 50 algs. I don't know if you were counting mirrors or not. Not counting mirror cases, I counted 30ish algs.

I'll post an example solve in a second, after I take this spanish test ;D

EDIT: Here is that example solve. The various steps are split up line by line.
http://tinyurl.com/algL-D2L2FR2LF

Pretty sexy 35-move (37 if you count the R R' I did at the end of 1 alg and the beginning of the next) solve. Average solves are low 40s, so this was a nice solve. It could have been lower (around 32 or 33) moves had I not used 2-gen algs, but that would defeat the point!


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## joey (Apr 27, 2010)

I think 2GLL is actually closer to 7x. I can't remember exactly, and I cant find the algs on SK's site anymore :<


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## Pseudoprogrammer (Apr 27, 2010)

Close to 7x sounds like double the amount that I calculated, so it probably counts mirrors as separate algs.

EDIT:

Here is another example solve. 43 moves, this solve is right in the middle of the bell-curve. I got the unfortunate 4-bad-edges case that you need to get rid of, so like I said before, it took about 5 moves to permute the F2L corners and make it so I had 6 bad edges instead. A pretty average solve. Average length alg, slightly below average luck. Upon putting the scramble into cube explorer I see that my 2x2x3 is not optimal, so I dunno how it would have turned out (I used 9 moves, optimal is 7).

http://tinyurl.com/algB-L-F-L2D2R

But lets hear some of you guy's experimental ideas too (Not that I don't like all of the attention, muahaha), I love new ideas...


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## Cride5 (Apr 27, 2010)

Pseudoprogrammer said:


> But lets hear some of you guy's experimental ideas too (Not that I don't like all of the attention, muahaha), I love new ideas...



Lots of new concepts/ideas discussed here:
http://www.speedsolving.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14323

There's also a section on the wiki dedicated to experimental methods here:
http://www.speedsolving.com/wiki/index.php/Experimental_Methods

As Joseph mentioned, this idea is similar to ZZ-d (reducing the cube to 2G after the 2x2x3), but I like how it combines EO and CP after the 2x2x3 - as far as I'm aware this is a novel concept. I'm interested to know more about the EO+CP step, do you have methodology for recognition? Is there an alg-list, and would you be willing to publish it online?


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## LarsN (Apr 27, 2010)

I came up with an Orient First method which:

1. orient corners (guimond algs)
2. Orient and place E-slice edges (M U action)
3. Orient remaining edges (M U action after a z-rotation)
4. Build 1x2x3 block using 3 centers and the DF DB edges (and preparing E-slice edges for step 5
5. solve f2l using only U-moves and R2 L2 moves.
6. PLL

I love step 1-3 which can be done fairly fast and move optimized with practise. But step 4 and especially 5 are not nice. It would be great if someone had a better idea on how to solve the cube after it has been reduced to being solvable using only <L2, R2, F2, B2, U, D>.


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## Pseudoprogrammer (Apr 27, 2010)

Cride5: The step works like so:
2x2x3 block is on DL (So R and U are the only unsolved sides). Insert F2L corners into their slots (but not oriented necessarily). To permute the corners you will need to swap two corners, they will be diagonal or adjacent. If adjacent, place the two corners on the R face (On U R? I believe you'd call it. Like I said before, my cube terminology is lacking. I mean to say your two corners to be swapped are UFR and UBR). If you have a diagonal swap, it doesn't matter the alignment, you can swap any diagonal corners. Look at your EO case. Execute alg. Recognition really isn't as bad as it sounds, it just takes some getting used to looking at permutation before orientation, because most solvers are accustomed to that.

EDIT:

And as for the 2GLL. I went back through and calculated every case. I got 75 (plus or minus a few, I can't remember exactly) cases with mirrors, and 39 cases without. So this method would have roughly 70 algs total.


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## joey (Apr 29, 2010)

B2 D R F L B2 R' F R L U2 B U' B R2 F' D' L' U' L' R F B2 U' L2 

F' D' L' F' D' R U R' (8)
z2 y U R2 U R (4)
F R2 F' U' R' U R U' F R F'(11)
U' R2 U' R U2 R U' R U' R2 U' R' (12)
U R U R' U R U2 R' (7)


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## Pseudoprogrammer (Apr 30, 2010)

I generated all the algs for that method I described. The CP+EO step and 2GLL. If anyone wants them, shoot me a message with your email address. I'm currently looking into making algorithms to solve all of F2L in one alg, but it looks like there will be a lot of cases so I probably won't.


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## Cyrus C. (Apr 30, 2010)

I'm really interested in this method. I may learn it, it's so interesting, I may stop learning CLL to learn these. What would you call the method?


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## Pseudoprogrammer (Apr 30, 2010)

I have no idea. Super petrus? I'm a terrible namer. Open to ideas. Any suggestions?


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## Kirjava (Apr 30, 2010)

Plustrus.


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## Pseudoprogrammer (Apr 30, 2010)

That actually sounds pretty awesome  I'm making a tutorial now...


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## Cyrus C. (Apr 30, 2010)

What's your real name?


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## Cride5 (Apr 30, 2010)

Pseudoprogrammer said:


> I have no idea. Super petrus? I'm a terrible namer. Open to ideas. Any suggestions?



How about P2G (Petrus-2-Gen), or P 2 the mother f'ikn G..


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## Pseudoprogrammer (Apr 30, 2010)

Cyrus: Grant Slatton
Cride5: I think P2G would be a pretty cool name for the specific step where I turn the cube into 2-gen solvable. So, Fridrich has F2L OLL and PLL, this has P2G and 2GLL. Yay acronyms.


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## Cyrus C. (Apr 30, 2010)

Or Petrus + GS2G.

How many algorithms would there be if I were to just use the ones with 2 bad edges?


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## qqwref (Apr 30, 2010)

P2G is good. So it'd be 2x2x3, P2G, S4, 2GLL, right?


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## Pseudoprogrammer (Apr 30, 2010)

I don't know what S4 stands for, but that's about right I guess.

Cyrus: The algorithm breakdown is like this:
0 Bad Edges: 2 Algs, both 7 moves
2 Bad Edges: 24 Algs, about 6.5 moves each
6 Bad Edges: 9 Algs, about 10 moves each

2GLL: 39 algs, about 14 moves each


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## Cyrus C. (Apr 30, 2010)

What about 4 bad edges? Could you just intuitively do the bad edges, then use a corner algorithm?


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## Pseudoprogrammer (Apr 30, 2010)

Cryus: Read my initial posts about the method. While inserting the 2 white corners into their correct permutations, you must also avoid having 4 bad edges. So either solve 2 or destroy 2 if you have 4. The reason for this is simply alg reduction. 4 edges have a very large alg burden.


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## Cyrus C. (Apr 30, 2010)

Pseudoprogrammer said:


> Cryus: Read my initial posts about the method. While inserting the 2 white corners into their correct permutations, you must also avoid having 4 bad edges. So either solve 2 or destroy 2 if you have 4. The reason for this is simply alg reduction. 4 edges have a very large alg burden.



Oh, I missed that.


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## Sir E Brum (Apr 30, 2010)

http://web.archive.org/web/20071212022714/www.geocities.com/portoseb/cube/method.html

a site with a bunch of dead pics but describes exactly what you are trying to do.

I have also considered this, but then I came to the conclusion that reducing the cube to a 2-gen state is not exactly worth the extra step.


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## Pseudoprogrammer (Apr 30, 2010)

Hm. What he does is similar indeed. He doesn't do LL in one algorithm though, nor does he have as many cases as I. It seems to me that 74 algorithms for a 45 or less move solve with half of those moves being 2-gen is fairly decent.


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## joey (Apr 30, 2010)

I dunno why, but it's kinky. And I like it.

I suck at 2x2x3


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## Pseudoprogrammer (Apr 30, 2010)

That was a good solve you posted earlier Joey. I'll be done with this tutorial by tomorrow. I'll send it to you. It contains all the algs and whatnot. After practice you should be able to do the 2x2x3 in 12 moves or less. Try solving a 3x2x1 (roux style) then the remaining 2 edges.


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## joey (Apr 30, 2010)

The 2x2x3 was optimal found by Johannes' solver


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## Joseph Gibney (Apr 30, 2010)

joey said:


> The 2x2x3 was optimal found by Johannes' solver



Yea, that seemed a bit too amazing to me...


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## Pseudoprogrammer (Apr 30, 2010)

Well, the tutorial (I hesitantly call it so, it's really quite crappy) is done. PM me for it.


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## Sir E Brum (Apr 30, 2010)

Pseudoprogrammer said:


> Hm. What he does is similar indeed. He doesn't do LL in one algorithm though, nor does he have as many cases as I. It seems to me that 74 algorithms for a 45 or less move solve with half of those moves being 2-gen is fairly decent.



I was referring mainly to the corner permutation while orienting edges. Because that is the main goal here. 

But the main issue I have come across is the extra step. That is an extra layer of identification. This identification involves seeing 5 pieces (because the 6th one would be automatically known) and determining the case. Then executing the appropriate algorithm to reduce the cube to a 2gen state. It IS a great method for reducing the number of LL algs required because you go from 494 to ~76. But 2 look OLL is also good for alg knowledge reduction because you go from 57 to 10.

I am not trying to discourage or bash you. Because I would love for a corner permutation method to work. It would be amazing. But it seems like so much work just to reduce an alg set.


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## Pseudoprogrammer (Apr 30, 2010)

I had another idea today. It's a fusion of my last method I've mentioned and MGLS. 
Solve F2L minus a slot
Do MGLS to insert edge and orient edges
While inserting the F2L corner, permute LL corners
Solve LL with 2GLL.

The corner insert/permute step has only 15 cases and that is including mirrors (it would be around 9 without). This modified method seems like a good compromise... Lots less algs too.

3 slots F2L ~ 20 moves
MGLS edge ~ 6 moves (this is a guess, I don't know the exact number, and I'm on my phone and don't want to go check right now)
Corner insert/Permute ~ 12 moves
2GLL ~ 13 moves
Total:51 moves
Alg count: around 50ish + MGLS edge, although most of those are fairly intuitive.


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## 4Chan (Apr 30, 2010)

I happen to know all 2GLLs. 

Is there somewhere I can happen to find the permutation algs for the corners?


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## Sir E Brum (Apr 30, 2010)

4Chan said:


> I happen to know all 2GLLs.
> 
> Is there somewhere I can happen to find the permutation algs for the corners?



http://www.speedsolving.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8871

This was originally a thread for ZZ-d, which permutes 6 corners while solving the LHB in ZZ, but changed to permuting 4 corners while solving the last slot. It assumes you are using a method that orients edges in a previous step.


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## joey (Apr 30, 2010)

15 cases sounds wrong.


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## Cyrus C. (Apr 30, 2010)

Wait, isn't the method you posted like the one on Lar5.com, except you combine step 3 & 5?


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## Sir E Brum (Apr 30, 2010)

Cyrus C. said:


> Wait, isn't the method you posted like the one on Lar5.com, except you combine step 3 & 5?



Yes. By combining it into one step you could make LL a breeze by making it 1 look AND 2-gen.


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## Pseudoprogrammer (May 2, 2010)

Here is an example solve of that in-between method I mentioned above.

F2L minus 1 slot = 16 moves
Orient Edges + Solve slot edge = 7 moves
Solve F2L corners + Permute LL Corners = 13 moves
2GLL = 16 moves

52 moves

Method averages about 50 moves and uses about 50 algs. I think it's pretty neat... There are no difficult recognition problems like with the first method I proposed.

Solve from above ^:
http://tinyurl.com/algB-U-D-L-RF2U


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## Pseudoprogrammer (May 4, 2010)

I've actually been developing this method with another member of the community (joey), and it looks very promising. 

Here is an example solve using the current list of algs:
http://tinyurl.com/algF2R2D-FDLFUR

Scramble: B L2 F2 U2 B L2 F' L2 F' R D2 L' R2 D L B2 U2 F' U' F'

2x2x2: F2 R2 D' F D L
2x2x3: F U R2 F2 U' R' F
F2L-Slot: U F R2 F2 U F R2
ELS: R U' R2 F R F' U'
CPLS: U R U R' U2 R U R' U
2GLL: R U R2 U' R' U' R U R U R2 U2 R' U2

This was an entirely average solve. Every single step was literally the exact average movecount or 1 move away from it. The total solve was 50 moves (But only 47 if you combine the R2 R' and cancel out the U' U I did between algorithms. I like to think that this solve was 49 moves because I did R2 R' fluidly as one move but the U' U was clearly not fluid. So, 49 move solve). My quicker-cubing-comrade (joey) is already sub-20 with a basic form of the method (F2L - 1 slot, intuitive ELS, he just learned some of the CPLS algs yesterday, and is using 2-look 2GLL). With that knowledge I'm confident that this method in full could match Fridrich/MGLS/etc..


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## plechoss (May 4, 2010)

So, here is my idea - you solve F2L normally, then EO combined with CP -> 2GLL. Should be good for OH solving, because EO + CP algs are pretty short.
scramble : D R' F' L D F' B D L B R' U2 R F2 B2 R2 L B' L B F U2 D' B2 R'
solution :
x2 y' R2 F2 U L F'
U' L U' L' U2 y R U' R'
U' y R U' R'
R' U R U2 R' U R
y R' U' R U2 R' U' R U R' U' R 
F' L F L' U2 L' U2 L
R U R' U R' U2 R2 U R2 U R2 U' R' U 
56 moves total


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## Pseudoprogrammer (May 4, 2010)

Do you mean EO combined with CP? Because EO combined with CO is just OLL


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## plechoss (May 4, 2010)

Yeah, i meant EO + CP. Sorry, my bad


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