# different memory methods advantages and disadvantages



## ccchips296 (Apr 24, 2008)

hey, ive been looking in to learning a memory system and from what ive read from this forum (and yes, ive searched alot) the main methods are PAO, journey methods, roman rooms and use of images (loci). while i have gotten the gist (or is it spelt jist? ) of it, i would like to get some more detail in to the advantages and disadvantages of each method and whether they are better suited to M2 or cycling/freesyle. 

currently, i am using 3OP for one cube and want to do multi bld and big cube bld later. however, i can to an extend do freestyle edges, M2 and pochman corners although they are a bit slower (i am willing to adapt those methods). 

also, from what i have heard, PAO systems only require the learning of 72 images and do not need to letter every sticker on the cube. this is a lot less images that what ive heard from pair images put in to a journey which require lettering of stickers and 522 (i think) images altogether. im not particularly sure on journey methods and roman rooms and how to practically put them in to cubing. if possible, could anyone give a list of images or words etc they use for each system so that i can use it as a reference (or possibly use it for myself )

thx in advance, Chris Chan 

Side note: If it helps or is just out of curiosity, i average from 2:30-4min with visual memory and 3OP.


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## cmhardw (Apr 24, 2008)

Hi Chris,

For 3x3x3 I use single syllable words, and just remember the sounds of the phrases I get. Each sticker has a letter, and I have a pre-prepared word for every letter combination. I personally still use a mix of images in a journey location (for edges) and single syllable words (for corners) on 3x3, but I'm currently expanding my single syllable word list into two - one with nouns and one with verbs. This way I can use a PA (person-action) list to memorize the 3x3x3 using only words.

Purely visual memorization is good if you have a strong natural memory. I personally feel I do not, and so it takes a huge amount of effort to memorize visually and still get under 2 minutes for a 3x3x3 BLD solve. There are others who can memorize visually in under 30 seconds though, so it depends on you.

I only have experience with letter pair lists, and placing either images into a journey or remember the sounds of the words I make. If you would like to see a letter pair word list or image list, I list both of my lists on my site at http://www.speedcubing.com/chris/memorizing.html

To answer your question, the pros of the images and journeys method are that it helps you remember a lot of information (read bigger cubes blindfolded) without a lot of effort during the solve. The cons are that you have to learn a large word or image list before you can even start using the method. You also have to practice and review your image/word lists to make sure you don't forget any. Also you have to constantly update images with better ones if you find you are always forgetting one of your images when it comes up during a solve.

I personally wouldn't use anything else other than either letter pair images or letter pair words, but I consider myself someone with only an average natural memorization ability. I've just found that without a system to help me memorize better I have trouble trying to memorize visually and be able to even get a solve under 2 minutes on 3x3. With my memory systems I can get solves under 2 minutes with relatively little effort compared to visual memorization.

Just my two cents on the memory method question,
Chris


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## F.P. (Apr 24, 2008)

Hi,

first I want to clear a few things up:

Actually you only listed one method.

Journeys, Roman rooms and the loci-technique are basically all the same.
It's all about having a certain route on which you will place your images.

The route can be your way to school/work or your room or just anything else.
I recently made a short vid for this/a tutorial even though it's more of an introduction but it should help you understanding the method.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkkLN6_x8Mc

I don't know what people told you, but for using the Person-Action-Object-technique the way it's supposed to be, you will have to create way more images than with the other techniques.

And actually the PAO-system belongs to the loci/roman rooms/journey-technique as well, since you will have to put the images on route-points...so, the PAO-System and the loci-technique aren't too different techniques.
The PAO-system is just a way to use the loci-technique.


Let's say you want to memorise sticker by sticker (as I do with the pochmann-method), than you would have to create at least 3 images for every letter-combination.
I have one image for every letter-combination...should be about 480 images (I'm still in the process of creating this list)...so, if you want to use the PAO-system, you will need a list of 430x3 images (at least if you memorise sticker by sticker/letter combinations).


So, sticker F needs to go to sticker W, you have the letter combination FW.
Now you need 3 images for this combination:
a person, an action and an object.

The PAO-system is for people who want to put 3 images on one routepoint; and that's not necessary for bfd-cubing at all.
Normally one would use the PAO-system in order to memorise a really long number or a lot of objects/whatever.

Since if you want to memorise a number of 3000 digits, you would need 1500 routepoints using the normal master system (don't know if you are familiar with that, but basically you have images for the numbers from 0-99, so 1 image=2 numbers).

If you use the PAO-system, you can put 3 images on a routepoint=6 numbers on a routepoint. So, your routes don't need to be that long...it's efficient there. But not for bfd-cubing.



I wouldn't really suggest you to use the PAO-system for bfd-cubing at all...



If you have any questions - just ask. 

If there are some requests/enough questions I would also do some better mnemo-techniques- tutorials.


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## Pedro (Apr 24, 2008)

F.P. said:


> Let's say you want to memorise sticker by sticker (as I do with the pochmann-method), than you would have to create at least 3 images for every letter-combination.
> I have one image for every letter-combination...should be about 480 images (I'm still in the process of creating this list)...so, if you want to use the PAO-system, you will need a list of 430x3 images (at least if you memorise sticker by sticker/letter combinations).
> 
> 
> ...



not necessarily...you can have a person, action and objetct for each sticker and associate 3 of them into an image

but I don't think it's that effective on bld cubing, since you often need to memorise in pair...

so, what I do is person-action

I have a person and its action for each sticker, and I memorise like this:

start -> A -> B
(I don't memorise my starting point, only if it's not UF...so, if it's UL or UB or whatever, I get the person doing the next 2 actions)

that would be person A doing action B
and I place that in one of my locations inside my roman rooms (I intend to place 2 images in each location, but I'm not sure yet)

and so on, 

suppose the cycle:

start A B C D E F

I'd memorise
person A doing action B, first location
person C doing action D, second location
person E doing action F, third location

Tim Habermaas uses this too, except he uses "outside" journeys instead of rooms...and he has done 24 cubes 


I'm working on a letter pair list too
it's 506 images (23*22), since I don't really memorise my usual starting position
I have like 200 or so by now...


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## F.P. (Apr 24, 2008)

Yeah, but as I said - that's not really PAO anymore and I just wanted to point out that this system is mainly for people who want to remember a huge amount of things (usually for a long time).


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## Pedro (Apr 24, 2008)

what is not PAO anymore?


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## F.P. (Apr 24, 2008)

well, I would rather call yours PA. 

And just to repeat: 
Normally PAO is used in order to be able to put more than one image on a routepoint, so you don't have to create too long routes/don't waste routepoints.
And the number of routepoints isn't really a problem in bfd-cubing; that's all I want to say. 


Still, there are a lot of different techniques/ways to use the locitechnique; everyone has to find the one which fits him/her best.
Also using others lists isn't really that good.

I mean, you can put like everything on routepoints...and as far as I can think of, for bfd-cubing you can only choose between visual memory and the loci-technique (if you want to be effective).
And for multi-bfd I can't think of anything else than loci anyway.


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## Pedro (Apr 24, 2008)

F.P. said:


> *well, I would rather call yours PA. *
> 
> And just to repeat:
> Normally PAO is used in order to be able to put more than one image on a routepoint, so you don't have to create too long routes/don't waste routepoints.
> ...



oh, I know that  that's why I said I use a "person-action system"


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## F.P. (Apr 24, 2008)

I hope that our little discussion at least helped ccchips296 a bit.


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## Jude (Apr 24, 2008)

Pedro said:


> suppose the cycle:
> 
> start A B C D E F
> 
> ...



I just started BLD cubing and was having trouble with visual memorisation, so I created a little system that requires way less images. It's just like the one Pedro said (PAO without the O) except for the Cycle A B C D E F, I'd have person A doing action B to person C in place 1, Person D doing action E to person F in place 2, etc. That way you only need to memorise 4 images for edges which would reduce memo time  And, for each peice, instead of having 2 different people (one for each sticker), I have just one Person and memorise him (on the green/orange edge for example) wearing either a distinctive green or a distinctive orange outfit. /Chukk


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## ccchips296 (Apr 24, 2008)

ok im back  after leaving this thread to develop, i would like to thank chris , um... mr. F.P and pedro and chukk for their input. 

for chris (hardwick), the purpose of me learning a memo system is so that i can do multi and big cube bld. even after learninng a system, i intend to use visual for one cube only because i feel it is faster and i have "relatively" good natural memo.

To F.P, yes, i kind of realised loci and journey and rooms were kinda the same but i just needed to fill space ... for your first post, i assumed that PAO meant that each STICKER and not pair sticker had a person action and object meaning that there was only 72 images since there are 24stickers and 3 images for each (24x3=72). also, from what i have learnt from your video (yes, i had seen it before) you use pair letters to make images only you dont use set images and instead make it up on the spot. if im not mistaken, if you have to make set images for each pair, it comes up to 522 (i think) images. Which is alot! it also seems to me that this becomes better suited for M2 because you have to memo in pairs (and pair letters) making it easy to see whether you are right or wrong centers.

to pedro, so, your saying that PAO isnt too effective because you have to memorise in pairs? i thought you used 3 cycle? (with freestyle edges) wouldnt it only help to memorise in pairs for M2? also, you said "i have a person and its action for each sticker", do u mean it like that the person owns the action and that it is set like that? or that the person and action are seperate depending on whether you are on the P or A part but they mean the same sticker? also (yes there are a lot of also's ) you said "I intend to place 2 images in each location, but I'm not sure yet". dont you already do multi bld? what do you do currently for it? also (last one for you i promise ) could you, if possible,provide a list as to what person/actions you use for your stickers? that would be greatly appreciated  

chukk, i see what you mean for the people but is it really that beneficial? wouldnt it be easier and more fool-proof to simply remember the extra images? 

thanks all! and yes, Mr. F.P, your conversations have helped  (so keep em coming )


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## ccchips296 (Apr 24, 2008)

oh yeah, i forgot. i dont REALLY fully understand the journey part of the memo where you place the images. could someone get more in to that? is it just as simple as Mr. F.P said in his video about remembering the images in places in your house? or is it different for a PA system. also, F.P mentioned that you should have 3 or 4 different routes. what if you are doing like 20 cubes? does that mean you have 20 different routes? if you where doing a roman room thing like Pedro, would you also need one room per cube?


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## Pedro (Apr 25, 2008)

well, to answer some of your questions 

what I mean is that each sticker has a person/character and the action for that stickers is that person's action

so, for blue/red, I have Superman and the action "flying" (superman's action)
for red/yellow, I have Michael Jordan and the action "playing basketball"

so, yeah, the actions are related to the person/character

I use either the person or the action depending on the position of the piece in the cycle


what I said about PAO is that you encode 3 pieces into one image, so it's not that effective

like I said, I cycle "start -> A -> B", so I only need to memorise A and B
if I would use PAO, I'd have always the same person doing different actions to different objects, and I think that's kind of a waste of memory 
but I think Chris does that, having the same person interacting with the other images


about placing 2 images into one location...
currently I place just one into each location, so that's one cycle per location
but that's for edges
for corners, I usually have 2 images (representing two cycles) in each location

I have 8 locations in each of my rooms, and memorise each cube in one room

I use 2 locations for corners and 6 for edges, so I need to put more than one image in each location for the corners

I currently have 10 rooms, but I'm working on getting more, so I can practice more cubes 
I'm using 6 of them for multi and 3 for the 4x4, so it's not that good, as I end up using the same rooms for the same purpose every time...once I have more rooms, I'll maybe practice more


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## ccchips296 (Apr 25, 2008)

hmm... thanks pedro for all these detailed explanations  practice makes perfect ... how long did it take you to learn all of the images for your stickers and stuff? how did you learn it? did you kind of just write it all down and study it or try to do it over and over again with the cube in your hand?


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## ccchips296 (Apr 25, 2008)

also, does tim habermaas use pair letter images like chris so theres like 500 and something or does he use single letter for each sticker like pedro?


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## joey (Apr 25, 2008)

Single letters. (fool)


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## F.P. (Apr 25, 2008)

Chukk said:


> [...]I'd have person A doing action B to person C in place 1, Person D doing action E to person F in place 2, etc. That way you only need to memorise 4 images for edges which would reduce memo time  And, for each peice, instead of having 2 different people (one for each sticker), I have just one Person and memorise him (on the green/orange edge for example) wearing either a distinctive green or a distinctive orange outfit. /Chukk




Well, basically you have three images in one image. You have two persons and one action in each image. 
Though, I know what you mean.

Isn't it confusing for you to remember just one person wearing a certain colour(ed)-shirt?

Since you said you just started with bld-cubing , I doubt that you already tried multi-bld, but my guess is that you will have problems with this system when you are trying more than one cube.
One person/and the sticker indicated by the shirt this person wears is too easy to confuse in my opinion.
But maybe it will work for you anyway...everyone is different. 

It's nice that you made up your own little system!


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## ccchips296 (Apr 25, 2008)

hmm ok...what happens when doing edges and you have to remember to flip a couple of edge pieces at the end? do u just remember it visually or numbers or do you do something special to your images to remember it?


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## pete (Apr 25, 2008)

F.P. said:


> ...so, if you want to use the PAO-system, you will need a list of 430x3 images (at least if you memorise sticker by sticker/letter combinations).




this is not how I undestand PAO system, but please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

in my opinion PAO system is for people who do NOT want to prepare a long list of images. if you memorize corners and edges permutation separately from orientation then you only need to have a prepared list of 11 PAO images.
if you solve by sticker (permutation and orientation in one step) then you need to prepare a list of only 22 PAO images (not 430x3)




F.P. said:


> So, sticker F needs to go to sticker W, you have the letter combination FW.
> Now you need 3 images for this combination:
> a person, an action and an object.
> 
> The PAO-system is for people who want to put 3 images on one routepoint;




if F needs to go to W, that's not even 1 image (not 3 images),
F needs to go W and W needs to go to B, that can be represented as 1 image.

and on one route point I typically place just 1 PAO image (one such image contains information about 3 different pieces or stickers)

I'm not going to bore you with my list of 11 PAO images (I solve piece by piece, not sticker by sticker so I need only 11 PAO images) but lets say on my
prepared list each Edge on solved cube is represented by PAO,
i.e. Edge #1 (or you can call it "I") my PAO = Izzard talking to Vader
(you use only PAO that makes sense to you, something you are familiar with,
if you don't know who Eddie Izzard is and why would he be talking to Darth Vader then use something else),
my PAO for Edge #8 (or "B") = Beckham kicking ball
my PAO for Edge #11 (or "N") = Norris fighting ninja
my PAO for Edge #12 (or "R") = Rambo holding gun

similarily for edges 3,4,5,6,7,9,10 I have prepared list of PAOs (I don't use PAO for Edge #2, that's my buffer)

so now lets say on scrambled cube I need to memorize sequence 11>8>1 (N>B>I) then my image to memorize is : Norris kicking Vader (that is just 1 image I need to memorize, I have to imagine how Chuck Norris is kicking Darth Vader and place this image in 1 location of my route).

to memorize 12 edges you only need 4 images.

if I was doing sticker by sticker, it's still only 4 images for all 12 edges,
the only difference being I have to prepare a list of 22 PAO images instead of 11.

cheers
Pete


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## ccchips296 (Apr 25, 2008)

oh, ok thanks pete.  that clarified a lot. so, each piece in your PAO has a person (like beckam) doing something beckham would do. Does it really have to be relevant (like could it be beckam eating noodles) or does it just help the memo process?


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## pete (Apr 25, 2008)

Pedro said:


> like I said, I cycle "start -> A -> B", so I only need to memorise A and B
> if I would use PAO, I'd have always the same person doing different actions to different objects, and I think that's kind of a waste of memory
> but I think Chris does that, having the same person interacting with the other images




I think you are a member of blindsolving yahoo group so you may remember
discussion Chris had with John Louis (grand master of memory) and I think
John Louis was of the opinion that same person doing different action to
different objects was an advantage in memorization (not disadvantage).


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## pete (Apr 25, 2008)

ccchips296 said:


> oh, ok thanks pete.  that clarified a lot. so, each piece in your PAO has a person (like beckam) doing something beckham would do. Does it really have to be relevant (like could it be beckam eating noodles) or does it just help the memo process?



I prepared the list so that the person does something relevant (i.e. Schumacher driving car), you keep this prepared list forever, in your long memory so I think it's better if the action/object is relevant to the person.

then during memorization of scrambled cube you are just following the sequence on the fly so those new PAO images are being created for you just by following the sequence and that's when you get person/action/object unrelated, yet easy to memorize in single image, i.e. "Izzard holding ball" (1>12>8) - that's not related but easy to remember as a single image (picture in your mind).

and since scrambled cube memorization is short memory process then I don't see a problem in those PAOs not being related.


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## F.P. (Apr 25, 2008)

Ok, wait...I will explain now how someone would effectively use the PAO-system (there are no "rules", you can use any system/technique for whatever you want, as long as it works for you - but this is how you would use the PAO system if you want to use all its possibilities and functions).

Since I'm memorising Pi, I will explain it with someone who wants to memorise Pi with the help of the PAO-system.

First I will shortly explain the Master/Major-system which is the basic all of basics. 

In the master-system, you have an image for every number from 0 to 99 (or from 0 to 999). Usually you will create images by first giving the numbers from 0-9 certain letters, which fir them (in a logical sense).

So for example 0 is z, c and s - z=zero, c and s have sound similar.

5 is L - roman numeral for 50.

If you want create an image for 50, you will have to use a word/image which starts with L and has z,c or s in it.

Best is, if the other letters are a, e, i, o, u only, because you may confuse it otherwise...sometimes that's not possible though.
You could use "Lassie" as the image for 50.

Now do that for all numbers from 0-99 and you have created your basic major-system.
If you want to use the PAO-system, you have to create 3 images for every number from 0-99.
So, for 50 you already have the "Person" - Lassie. You have to create 2 more images: an action-word/image with L/c/s/z and an object with L/c/s/z.

If you memorise Pi now, you will always have 3x2 digits on a route-point. The first two digits are the person, the second two digits are the action and the last two digits are the object.

Let's say I have to memorise the combination 502639;
Now I will use the "person" image I have fore 50, the action image I have for 26 and the object image for 39.

For memorising the combination 265039 I will use the person image for 26, the action image for 50 and the object image for 39.

For memorising 392650 I will use the person image I have for 39, the action image of 26 and the object image for 50.


It's important that it's always in the same order: first person, then action, then object...otherwise this whole system is pointless.
One of the reasons for creating route-points is to not confuse the order of the images you memorise. If you put more than one image on a routepoint, you need an order-system for the images on a routepoint - in this case it's the PAO-system.




PAO-system, you will need a list of 430x3 images (at least if you memorise sticker by sticker/letter combinations).
[/QUOTE]


this is not how I undestand PAO system, but please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

in my opinion PAO system is for people who do NOT want to prepare a long list of images. if you memorize corners and edges permutation separately from orientation then you only need to have a prepared list of 11 PAO images.
if you solve by sticker (permutation and orientation in one step) then you need to prepare a list of only 22 PAO images (not 430x3)




F.P. said:


> So, sticker F needs to go to sticker W, you have the letter combination FW.
> Now you need 3 images for this combination:
> a person, an action and an object.
> 
> The PAO-system is for people who want to put 3 images on one routepoint;





pete said:


> if F needs to go to W, that's not even 1 image (not 3 images),
> F needs to go W and W needs to go to B, that can be represented as 1 image.




Do you know now what I mean by that?
I have an image for the letter combination FW, if I use the PAO-system, I would have to create 3 images for this combination (or well - every possible combination), since I memorise by letter-combinations.



But as I said...there are no rules - use the system you like and which works best for you.
I never really thought of using the PAO-system for bfd-cubing, but if it works for you - use it the way you want it (modify it). 


Greetings, Flo!


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## ccchips296 (Apr 25, 2008)

hmm. i see what you mean F.P but as far as i know, the PAO system is made so that its not pair letters but single letters containing a Person action and object. This narrows the amount of images needed to just about 72.

also, for PAO system, what do you do if its a 2 cycle say A=>B? do you just make it a person doing something? how would you remember that in a multi bld attempt or something on a larger scale than just one cube?

also, what advantages does remembering pair lettering have over single lettering if you have to remember much more images? how would you suggest remembering all the different persons actions and objects?


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## F.P. (Apr 25, 2008)

Pedro only uses "PA" - person+action as far as I remember.

Maybe an even number is better than an odd one for cubing (PA vs. PAO  ).

When doing multi-bld I think you should have a system for everything...I mean, when doing one cube only, you can say remember the last letter (or whatever) with your short-term memory - that's not really a "safe system" for multi-bld.


The adavantage of memorsing by single-letters is that you don't need to care about an even or odd number of letters.

I'm memorising in pairs and I have only images for the pairs; so if I have an odd number letters to memorise (let's say I need to memorise 7 letters...that makes 3 pairs and one letter) I have to create an image for this one letter during the memorisation-time.
I don't know if that really works when doing 10 or more cubes multi-bld.

For one cube it's no problem of course.


And as for "learning" your images: learn them by using them.
Don't sit down and learn your list...just do solves the whole time, and check your list if you can't remember an image.


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## ccchips296 (Apr 25, 2008)

i see.... well, thanks for all of this advice everyone. i figure im gonna work with a PA system and see how that works. ive bookmarked this thread its so helpful  thanks all. (please continue discussing here if it helps) the more advice, the merrier. 

btw, if you know you have a flipped edge at the end of a cycle, how would you memorise than if you are doing many cubes? just visually memo it or something?


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## Pedro (Apr 25, 2008)

ccchips296 said:


> hmm... thanks pedro for all these detailed explanations  practice makes perfect ... how long did it take you to learn all of the images for your stickers and stuff? how did you learn it? did you kind of just write it all down and study it or try to do it over and over again with the cube in your hand?



well, it took sometime to create the list, so when I finished it was almost all "attached" to my mind
I used the piece colors to define the persons (I did this just for edges at first, was using CO, CP for multi, but I don't anymore)
but some were hard, so I just put the characters there on the pieces missing 

I'd say it takes waaaaay less time than to memorise a 506 image list (which I'm preparing as I already said)



ccchips296 said:


> hmm ok...what happens when doing edges and you have to remember to flip a couple of edge pieces at the end? do u just remember it visually or numbers or do you do something special to your images to remember it?



well, that's a good question  sometimes I forget to flip them  but Tim gave an advice (not specifically for me, but I use it)...you can make the flipped piece image burn or freeze

like, if I have to orient blue/red, I'd "see" Superman burning for some reason 

not 100% efficient by now, but I guess it will get better


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## Mike Hughey (Apr 25, 2008)

joey said:


> Single letters. (fool)



I really am curious whether your parenthetical statement is actually true or not. If Tim's method really is inferior, it's frightening to think what he could do with letter pairs!!! Maybe we'd see 50/50 in 2 1/2 hours? 

(Hey, why not - 50 cubes in 2 1/2 hours is just 3 minutes per cube...)


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## ccchips296 (Apr 25, 2008)

wait, pedro how do you use colours to memo edges? dont you use freestyle so you're memo'ing stickers? what would be the different from say a UF and an FU p) sticker? wouldnt it be easier to base the images on letters (like ive seen many people do). also, you said you dont memo CO, CP anymore. What do you do? cause ive seen you still do that in your videos.

yeah, im experimenting with freestyle edges now and while my accuracy isnt great, i do feel it helps my execution times a lot. the problem is im not used to checking for flipped edges so much  remembering stickers visually is ALOT harder than pieces.


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## tim (Apr 26, 2008)

joey said:


> Single letters. (fool)



lol .

50 cubes in 2:30h? That's easy, but not for me. Maybe you should ask some really good guys (Ben Pridmore, Dr. Gunther Karsten, ... (endless list)) to try that.


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## Pedro (Apr 26, 2008)

pete said:


> I think you are a member of blindsolving yahoo group so you may remember
> discussion Chris had with John Louis (grand master of memory) and I think
> John Louis was of the opinion that same person doing different action to
> different objects was an advantage in memorization (not disadvantage).



yeah, I'm a member there...but I don't remember this particular discussion...

I didn't say memorising that is bad or a disadvantage

I just think it's not really necessary

I just memorise the starting point for the first part of that cycle. So, when UF gets solved and there are other edges to solve, I get the next unsolved one (following the order as in Macky's tutorial) and start a new cycle.

so I get the person for that sticker and for the next 2 pieces (which form the cycle) I get the actions, having one person doing 2 actions

this may not be the best way, but...



ccchips296 said:


> wait, pedro how do you use colours to memo edges? dont you use freestyle so you're memo'ing stickers? what would be the different from say a UF and an FU p) sticker? wouldnt it be easier to base the images on letters (like ive seen many people do). also, you said you dont memo CO, CP anymore. What do you do? cause ive seen you still do that in your videos.
> 
> yeah, im experimenting with freestyle edges now and while my accuracy isnt great, i do feel it helps my execution times a lot. the problem is im not used to checking for flipped edges so much  remembering stickers visually is ALOT harder than pieces.



well, I used the edge colors to "create" my PA system
so, for the orange/blue edge, I tried to get some person/character which is orange and blue (more orange than blue). That one was Goku, from Dragon Ball Z, with his predominant orange suit 

but, as I said, for some of them I couldn't find a good "link", so I just got some random persons to complete the list

you can do it any way you want, as long as you know which person represents each sticker 

on multi, I'm doing freestyle corners
I use commutators and/or setups into A perms, when it's easy

I just have another PA set for the corner stickers (which I initially developed for 4x4 centers) and do the same thing


for one cube I still do CO, CP and memorise all with rote memory


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## ccchips296 (Apr 26, 2008)

hmm, yeah i looked at freestyle corners and want to get in to it but i dont understand it. is it the same concept as free edges how you set up the stickers? cause often its kinda hard to get them all facing the same way since they have 3 orientations and the set up moves would take a while. where do you get your commutators from? are there any guides or tutorials on free corners? could you do a couple example solves (for corners) by any chance (like the ones you did for edges)? that would be greatly appreciated


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## Pedro (Apr 26, 2008)

well, I got the commutators from Chris thread

it's somewhere in the bld section here 

sure I can do examples

wanna give me the scrambles or I get them myself?


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## cmhardw (Apr 26, 2008)

If someone posts a scramble I'll write up the solve for corners using BH method. I don't think freestyle and BH corners are that different though to be honest, except for maybe some of the harder cases (as in the optimal alg is 10-12 moves HTM).

Chris


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## pete (Apr 26, 2008)

scramble #25 from last week's multiBLD competition would be fine ?

B2 F' D' B2 F D U2 F' L2 U' B F2 L B2 L B' L2 R2 B F2 L R2 U' R' D2


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## Pedro (Apr 26, 2008)

ok, let me do it before Chris comes and makes a much better solution 

I start from UBL

so, UBL - FDL - RUF
F' R (A perm) R' F

UBL - UBR - LDB
[U', R D' R']

UBL - UFL and DFR - DBR
R2 E perm R2

flip the corners


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## cmhardw (Apr 26, 2008)

> B2 F' D' B2 F D U2 F' L2 U' B F2 L B2 L B' L2 R2 B F2 L R2 U' R' D2



BH corners:

UBL->DFL->RUF
case name: orthogonals
alg: F' U L' D2 L U' L' D2 L F

UBL->URB->LBD
case name: drop and catch
alg: L' D' L U' L' D L U

UBL->ULF->DBR (breaking into a new cycle)
case name: direct insert
alg: B2 L F L' B2 L F' L'

UBL->FDR->RDB
case name: toss-up
alg: R U2 R' D' R U2 R' D

When breaking into a new cycle I specifically chose DBR because it made for an easy optimal 8 mover commutator for the next cycle. Daniel has all the corner commutators posted somewhere for BH, but we're still working on the literature for our method. This solve was particularly easy though, to be honest. No hard cycles at all, except for the "orthogonals" case which is optimal at 10 moves, but even then it's still fast.

Chris


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## ccchips296 (Apr 26, 2008)

hmm... i see. thanks chris and pedro  im probably gonna stick to CO CP for a while till i get used to free corners though  when i do learn these "free" corners, ill probably just stick to setups with A perms and learn a couple commutators from chris' thread for the harder cases. thank all!


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## martijn_cube (May 10, 2008)

@ pedro: i'm trying to find a good memo system. and your system looks very promising, so i want to try it a bit. but one question: i solve stickers so i need 22. but if i take lets say UB(yellow-red) and BU(red-yellow), what kind of advice can you give me on creating pictures for it. should i create kind off the same picture for them, somehow related or something(because its the same piece) or should i just look at them as totally different pieces?

i will choose between this PAO or ''22 total/ nr 1-10+A-L'' this give me pairs like 1L AE 5B 79 3 etc.


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## Pedro (May 11, 2008)

I have different pictures for each sticker, and I think it helps avoiding confusions

if you have similar images for the stickers on a piece, you might get yourself in trouble, not knowing exactly which sticker you had


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## ThePizzaGuy92 (May 11, 2008)

Visual....
Advantage: It's easy to learn
Disadvantage: it's not easy to do

haha


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## ccchips296 (May 11, 2008)

gee....thanks pizzaguy............but only one thing, i already do visual


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## martijn_cube (May 11, 2008)

Pedro said:


> I have different pictures for each sticker, and I think it helps avoiding confusions
> 
> if you have similar images for the stickers on a piece, you might get yourself in trouble, not knowing exactly which sticker you had



ok thanks. i'm going to try and make a list.

edit: i made a list for the edges now. and it seems to be a nice memo method. because i use M2 and i want to memo in pairs, i think i'm going to use P A O P. (so to use your example: Izzard holding ball vader.) so i can memo 4 stickers in one picture. thats 3 pictures for the edges, and 2 for corners.
but one more question, should i try to use the same list for the edges too, or should i make a new one. the benefit of one list could be that there is less to remember. on the other hand it could confuse too. so what would you recommend?


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## KConny (May 15, 2008)

I scanned trough 5 pages and couldn't find how I do it. I now use the same for both single BLD and mulit. I've got two sets of images for every sticker on the cube. One is a person, the other one is an action or a thing. I then use journey method and place a person doing something in a location. This is nothing special but it works great with M2 because I know if it's a person the centers are right and if it's an action or thing centers are wrong.

martijn_cube: I'd recommend a new list for edges.


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