# Perfect Memo!!!



## DennisStrehlau (Sep 2, 2008)

Hey Guys.
I just asked myself how many of you have thoughts, or even HAVE anything that helps to memo less, easier or whatever. I mean like letter pair lists, image lists or even other things. do you guys have even new or better ideas about "lists" or anything like that, that helps memorizing a lot of cubes or bigger cubes (or whatever). 
I for example had the idea of creating a list like that:
4 pieces = one image, so if i have one image for one piece (edge or corner), i would have ONE image instead of 4 in the end. THEN Rowe told me about the same idea, but i said, that it is toooo much work, cause there are thousands of possibilities. Maybe i will be crazy enough one day...
But this would be SSOOO much work and i know what i am talking about, so i am thinking about other and better ways to make my current method even more PERFECT!
At the moment i have some ideas about memorizing flipped pieces WAY better.
SO GUYS!!!! 
If you have ANNNNYYY ideas about ANYTHING that i mentioned!!!
POOOOOOST IT IN THIS THREAD!!!!!!!!!!!

GREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEETINGS...DENNIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## tim (Sep 2, 2008)

I once thought about memorizing the cube directly without paying attention to cycles.
e.g Memorize the piece at UF at your first location, the UR piece at your second...

The big advantage is, that you don't have to look for pieces anymore. Memorizing a cube is always the same, like memorizing a deck of cards.
The big disadvantage: Execution. I haven't yet fully thought about the execution part, but i assume that it's not trivial.


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## joey (Sep 2, 2008)

tim said:


> I once thought about memorizing the cube directly without paying attention to cycles.
> e.g Memorize the piece at UF at your first location, the UR piece at your second...
> 
> The big advantage is, that you don't have to look for pieces anymore. Memorizing a cube is always the same, like memorizing a deck of cards.
> The big disadvantage: Execution. I haven't yet fully thought about the execution part, but i assume that it's not trivial.


I remember talking about this together.

I still think visual memo is the perfect memo system


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## AvGalen (Sep 2, 2008)

I heard from Ron van Bruchem that he knows someone who actually does just that. Maybe you kan PM him to find out who it was?


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## Escher (Sep 2, 2008)

personally, i find memo like that hard to get used to. i can only visually memorise a cube, or remember strings of numbers. everything else is just a little strange, for me at least. Derren Brown has an interesting section on memorisation of big numbers/items in his book, tricks of the mind. (not sure of his worldwide popularity - hes a UK based 'magician', using behaviourism & psychology to fool us. its great ).


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## cubeRemi (Sep 2, 2008)

I was working on a more mathematic system to compress information special for the 3x3 multi bld. 

you can compress the orientation of all edges (on one 3x3cube) into 4 decimal digits. use a binary code: 1=oriented 0=disoriented

then split the cube, if the first half is oriented then you get 111111b = 63 decimal. 
( Uf is always binary digit number 1 UR number 2 … number 6 ) 

(( but maybe it can be done in les than 4 digits if some numbers or some xxaa combination will never appear (alway even number edges flipped..))) 

then orient first + use a method you like. 

for permutation of the edges it is possible to write a 3 cycle ( 3 targets ) in 4 decimal digits. 

however, I am still working on less digits with bigger cycles.
I learned the major system for memory (google, don't ask!) and I have 11 digits. but it is build for 11x11 "thinks". 

therefore, if you take the time to build your database, you can store 2 target edges in one of your 11x11 digits.
but with some number tricks I think it is possible, once you have a nice 11x11 database, to store a target in something like 3/5 digit (yes 5 targets 3 "digit's")

but I am still working on the permutation

anyway, about the same goes for the corners. I wanted to put everything on speedsolving once I were done. but since Dennis started this thread...

greetzz Remi


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## Mike Hughey (Sep 2, 2008)

tim said:


> I once thought about memorizing the cube directly without paying attention to cycles.
> e.g Memorize the piece at UF at your first location, the UR piece at your second...
> 
> The big advantage is, that you don't have to look for pieces anymore. Memorizing a cube is always the same, like memorizing a deck of cards.
> The big disadvantage: Execution. I haven't yet fully thought about the execution part, but i assume that it's not trivial.



Isn't this essentially the way Richard Carr did it years ago?

Actually, I Googled and found the answer: yes it is the way he did it:
http://www.ws.binghamton.edu/fridrich/Richard/BlindfoldRevenge.pdf


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## AvGalen (Sep 2, 2008)

I think that was indeed the person Ron was talking about. Always memo UF, UR, UB, UL, etc in the same order. It makes memo extremely fast because
a) You don't have to follow pieces around the cube to figure out the cycle(s)
b) You only have to look at every face of the cube once so with "6 looks" your done


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## tim (Sep 2, 2008)

And more secure, because you can't forget to memorize a single flipped edge.


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## cmhardw (Sep 3, 2008)

I like my single syllable word list so much that I'm actually planning to expand it to a single syllable object/verb list. The first two pieces are a single syllable object, and the next two pieces are a single syllable verb.

Other than that I just use standard letter pair images and journeys. I've thought about creating more journeys, so that I rarely have to reuse them (which causes memo interference).

I guess I don't put too much thought into memo, which is probably bad. Will have to stop being lazy and complete my single syllable verb list soon. I've been about 25% done for the past 3 months I'd say lol.

Chris


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## DennisStrehlau (Sep 3, 2008)

cmhardw said:


> I like my single syllable word list so much that I'm actually planning to expand it to a single syllable object/verb list. The first two pieces are a single syllable object, and the next two pieces are a single syllable verb.
> 
> Other than that I just use standard letter pair images and journeys. I've thought about creating more journeys, so that I rarely have to reuse them (which causes memo interference).
> 
> ...



Hey Chris.
How long is your single syllable list?
My image-list (2 images= 1 image) has 818 images.

Greetings...Dennis


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## Simboubou (Sep 3, 2008)

I am actually writing a Letter pair list in French. It will include 420 images. But I won't use Journey, I am too bad with this, I prefer stories.

Currently, I solve corner in multiblind using 3op. I memorize corners orientation of all cubes just before I start to solve, with this system : 



( Yes, it is ugly ).


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## DennisStrehlau (Sep 3, 2008)

Simboubou said:


> I am actually writing a Letter pair list in French. It will include 420 images. But I won't use Journey, I am too bad with this, I prefer stories.
> 
> Currently, I solve corner in multiblind using 3op. I memorize corners orientation of all cubes just before I start to solve, with this system :
> 
> ...



When will you finish your list man???

Greetings...Dennis


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## vnzuo (Sep 3, 2008)

ok, here is wat i do for memo:

CO,EO: visualise the memo, and use ur body! say feet and toes , i know it sounds crazy, but it will help! 

CP:think the cube as the earth, and name 8 corners with 8 different countries and then visualise the memo too, it is more like to memo the route

EP: I don't really memo this part, wat I do is to repeat reading it during memo and execution.

memo order: CP-(CO-EO)-EP
execution order: EP-(EO&CO)-CP


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## cmhardw (Sep 3, 2008)

DennisStrehlau said:


> Hey Chris.
> How long is your single syllable list?
> My image-list (2 images= 1 image) has 818 images.
> 
> Greetings...Dennis



Hey Dennis,

I'm pretty sure my single syllable list has 503 words (I did more of a combinatorial count, so if you actually count the words in my list and this is wrong then that's my oops lol). My images list has 576 images, so combined I use 1079 words and/or images to memorize. I'm going to be adding probably close to another 500 words to my lists when I change to object/verb for my words. Still that's nothing compared to the couple thousand images that the pro memorizers use. Still, at least we're all turning memorizing a cube into a serious endeavor.

Chris


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## DennisStrehlau (Sep 3, 2008)

cmhardw said:


> DennisStrehlau said:
> 
> 
> > Hey Chris.
> ...



Hey Chris.
As i mentioned, i might do a list with 4 images=1 image. I am not sure how many possibillities there are. Does anybody know? It will be a lot of work, to learn all the images then, BUT it would be MORE than usefull!

Greetings...Dennis


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## Simboubou (Sep 3, 2008)

DennisStrehlau said:


> When will you finish your list man???
> 
> Greetings...Dennis



Well, I Don't know yet. I will probably need several weeks...
But it is a very "personnal list", with lot's of thing only me can understand.

( BTW, it will be 462 items, not 420. Why is your list so long, Dennis ? )

Greetings... Simon


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## cmhardw (Sep 3, 2008)

DennisStrehlau said:


> Hey Chris.
> As i mentioned, i might do a list with 4 images=1 image. I am not sure how many possibillities there are. Does anybody know? It will be a lot of work, to learn all the images then, BUT it would be MORE than usefull!
> 
> Greetings...Dennis



For corners, assuming a fixed buffer corner, and assuming you solve position and orientation at the same time, that's 21*18*15*12 = 68040

for edges that's 22*20*18*16=126720

With clever planning the edges images will overlap the corner ones, but still 126720 is too many to learn I think.

If you pre-orient all pieces then 4 pieces in one image needs:

corners: 7*6*5*4 = 840 images
edges: 11*10*9*8 = 7920 images

which is definitely manageable as a memory system. The question is, is it worth it to have such a memory system combined with orient first (which entails yet another memorization step/method)?

Chris


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## blah (Sep 3, 2008)

I've read the entire thread, and we seem to be talking about the 3x3x3 only, right? No big cubes involved?

Frankly, hundreds of words intimidate me, let alone 126720  How come no one's thinking towards minimalistic methods that can achieve, say, 90% of your desired outcome?


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## Mike Hughey (Sep 3, 2008)

cmhardw said:


> The question is, is it worth it to have such a memory system combined with orient first (which entails yet another memorization step/method)?



For multi, I'm really excited about my new approach for memorizing corner orientation (convert hex numbers into letter pair images). I think such a system might be practical for multi. And it's also true that Alexander Yu and Rowe Hessler were both quite fast with orient-first methods.

However, that being said, 2 letter images is also quite effective for storing lots of information. And I know Tim Habermaas had a lot of luck with just single letter images. So I'm not sure if it's worth the trouble for that reason.


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## DennisStrehlau (Sep 3, 2008)

Mike Hughey said:


> cmhardw said:
> 
> 
> > The question is, is it worth it to have such a memory system combined with orient first (which entails yet another memorization step/method)?
> ...



Yeah, i think so too.
I just combined 2 images to 1. ne letters at all, i know the list perfectly now and its much better then before.


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## DennisStrehlau (Sep 3, 2008)

cmhardw said:


> DennisStrehlau said:
> 
> 
> > Hey Chris.
> ...




Thats really a lot, F*** !!!
Thanks for that by the way, Chris.

And Simboubou: my list is so long, cause i have an image for every piece with every other possible piece (edges with edges and corners with corners, 2 orientations for edges and 3 for corners of course)so thats 11 edges with both orientations = 22 (not 12, cause 1 is the buffer) with all the other edges (with both orientations) = 22*20=440. and same for corners means:
7 corners with 3 orientations each=
one corner with every other (6) corner (3 orientations) = 18.
7 corners ( not 8 , cause of the buffer again) with 3 orientations means:
21*18=378 ------> 440+378=818



Greetings...Dennis


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## Simboubou (Sep 3, 2008)

Oh, you are right.

My list is 440 items long. ( Now I am sure it is this ).
But I planed to use the same letter pairs for corners... I realize now that I don't use the same buffer letter... But it is not a problem, I can change my buffer for corner.


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## Stefan (Sep 4, 2008)

cmhardw said:


> nothing compared to the couple thousand images that the pro memorizers use.


Do they? I only know Ben Pridmore did this (for cards). Who else?



Mike Hughey said:


> Tim Habermaas had a lot of luck with just single letter images.


Luck?


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## Mike Hughey (Sep 4, 2008)

StefanPochmann said:


> Mike Hughey said:
> 
> 
> > Tim Habermaas had a lot of luck with just single letter images.
> ...


Poor choice of words - sorry. 
s/luck/success/


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## tim (Sep 4, 2008)

Mike Hughey said:


> StefanPochmann said:
> 
> 
> > Mike Hughey said:
> ...



I'm sure that Boris Konrad (40s speed cards, 9th place), Simon Reinhard (10th place) and Dr. Gunther Karsten (2nd place) use single images. And i just found this "Mind and Memory Training" book while i looked for evidence for my assumption. I think it's worth reading.

btw. i don't use single letter images, just single images.


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## Mike Hughey (Sep 4, 2008)

tim said:


> btw. i don't use single letter images, just single images.



Just to clarify - when you say this do you mean that you correlate the image directly to the piece, without going through a letter in between? (That's what I assume you mean, but I'd like to be sure.) Or do you mean something different?


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## cmhardw (Sep 4, 2008)

StefanPochmann said:


> cmhardw said:
> 
> 
> > nothing compared to the couple thousand images that the pro memorizers use.
> ...



I don't know if anyone has learned it yet, but I've seen debate before on the memory sports group that people want to learn the 10000 image system that will allow them to encode 4 decimal digits into one image. Again, I don't know if anyone has actually learned it, only that I've seen people mentioning they would like to learn it.

As far as I know Ben Pridmore uses the largest number of images, but I have heard memorizers before mention that 1000 images/words/etc. is pretty much the standard amount that most people know who use a large system. There are exceptions of course like those who use just 1 image per location and use lots of locations to memorize instead.

Chris


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## tim (Sep 4, 2008)

Mike Hughey said:


> tim said:
> 
> 
> > btw. i don't use single letter images, just single images.
> ...



Yes, that's what i meant.


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## F.P. (Sep 7, 2008)

Most "memorizers" use a majorsystem with images for the numbers from 0-999 (so do I).


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## cubeRemi (Sep 7, 2008)

I'm stil working on my 11x11 majorsystem. 2 targets, one image/sound.

Remi


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