# Is a delegate to a competition really that necessary?



## Jhong253 (Mar 27, 2009)

Title says it all.

But anyway, the requirement of having at least a delegate present at a competition can be rather difficult to satisfy. In my case, I'm questioning right now whether I should keep going with the Indiana Fall Cubing Classic because I can't get a delegate. And... I'm at Indiana with two delegates nearby, and I still can't get one.

So, what about those people who have delegates _really_ far away? For those organizers, getting a delegate might be pain in the rear end.

Many competitions have very experienced competitors present who know the rules almost as well as the delegates. If a competition had no one who had competed before, of course a delegate would be necessary. But for other competitions where experienced competitors are present... getting a delegate can rather become a hassle for organizer. What do you all think?


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## AvGalen (Mar 27, 2009)

jhong253 said:


> Title says it all.
> 
> But anyway, the requirement of having at least a delegate present at a competition can be rather difficult to satisfy. In my case, I'm questioning right now whether I should keep going with the Indiana Fall Cubing Classic because I can't get a delegate. And... I'm at Indiana with two delegates nearby, and I still can't get one.
> 
> ...


You can have as many competitions without a delegate as you want

If you want to have a WCA competition, you need a WCA delegate.
If getting a WCA delegate is a problem, contact Tyson (in the US) and ask him how to handle this. One of the more experienced cubers might be made a delegate


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## Ton (Mar 27, 2009)

No , you can have as many unofficial competitions as you want

WCA delegate represent the WCA, experienced competitor is not enough it is not about knowing the rules only ....there are much more qualifications to become a WCA delegate . USA has the most WCA delegates , must be one nearby


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## AvGalen (Mar 27, 2009)

Ton said:


> ...there are much more qualifications to become a WCA delegate .


Or those qualifications listed anywhere?


Ton said:


> USA has the most WCA delegates , must be one nearby


Well, in the topicstart it said: "And... I'm at Indiana with two delegates nearby, and I still can't get one."


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## Bryan (Mar 27, 2009)

jhong253 said:


> And... I'm at Indiana with two delegates nearby, and I still can't get one.



I know Jim Mertens is close, but as he's said, it's too far out for him to commit right now, and one of the weekends doesn't work for him.

Not sure who the other nearby person is. I'm 580 miles away, and Chris Hardwick is over 600.

Also, while the regulations do allow the delegate to simply watch and report back to the WCA, many will do significantly more. For the Wisconsin competition, I handled a majority of the organization of the competition to ensure it ran smooth. And I also brought the equipment, so he didn't have to go through the hassle of obtaining that. 

While many competitors might know a lot of the rules, it's knowing all of them that's important. Also, enforcing the rules.


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## DavidWoner (Mar 27, 2009)

Ton said:


> WCA delegate represent the WCA, experienced competitor is not enough it is not about knowing the rules only ....there are much more qualifications to become a WCA delegate . USA has the most WCA delegates , must be one nearby



well most of those delegates are located on the east and west coast of the US, there are very few delegates in the central US. The closest delegate to my hometown is 450 miles away(imagine driving from Den Haag to Berlin) and all of the others are much farther than that.


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## clement (Mar 27, 2009)

AvGalen said:


> Or those qualifications listed anywhere?



From the WCA Forum, written by Ron :



> The requirements for WCA delegates are:
> - must know the WCA regulations "by heart"
> - must be very trustworthy
> - must feel very responsible
> - must be strong enough to influence an organization team and officials to make sure the WCA regulations are followed


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## Ton (Mar 27, 2009)

Vault312 said:


> Ton said:
> 
> 
> > WCA delegate represent the WCA, experienced competitor is not enough it is not about knowing the rules only ....there are much more qualifications to become a WCA delegate . USA has the most WCA delegates , must be one nearby
> ...



Well some dedication is required from WCA delegates, I have traveled to Czech ,will go to Indonesia to be WCA delegate . Much more as the 450 miles...

450 miles can just be driver by car by one person, so if you would rembours travel cost of an WCA delegate I am sure you will find one


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## Jhong253 (Mar 27, 2009)

This is why I am saying, maybe the requirement of delegates may be a bit too much. Having an unofficial competition may not make people come. But requiring someone be there... I don't know.
1. I'm lucky enough to have Bryan and Jim relatively close (Ok, Bryan may not be _as_ close, but still), but venues require me to plan really far ahead. Delegate requirement is a hassle here.
2. Knowing the WCA regulations "by heart" is something achieved by some other competitors too. So is being trustworthy and being very responsible. For example, Mike Hughey. Guys like him are often very respected and definitely are "strong enough" to influence the officials too. So if a competition have lots of guys like that... is a "delegate" really still necessary? I've seen competitions where several delegates were present but only one was officially recognized as the "delegate." If there are people who would be qualified as a delegate, getting an official person might be a hassle.
3. Cost. Again, I'm lucky that there are at least somebody nearby. But what about all those other people who have literally no one (delegate wise) nearby? They would have to pay for the entire cost to just bring one. In my case, unless 100+ people showup, I wouldn't be able to pay for the whole trip for any delegate.


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## mcciff2112 (Mar 27, 2009)

jhong253 said:


> *Many* competitions have very experienced competitors present who know the rules almost as well as the delegates.



You even said many. Not all competitions are guaranteed to have someone who is "experienced enough to know the rules." There's no way to say that there will be someone there that can be considered experienced enough to know the rules, yet not experienced to be a delegate. I can see your side of the argument, but I think things are better the way they are right now.


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## PatrickJameson (Mar 27, 2009)

jhong253 said:


> This is why I am saying, maybe the requirement of delegates may be a bit too much. Having an unofficial competition may not make people come. But requiring someone be there... I don't know.
> 1. I'm lucky enough to have Bryan and Jim relatively close (Ok, Bryan may not be _as_ close, but still), but venues require me to plan really far ahead. Delegate requirement is a hassle here.
> 2. Knowing the WCA regulations "by heart" is something achieved by some other competitors too. So is being trustworthy and being very responsible. For example, Mike Hughey. Guys like him are often very respected and definitely are "strong enough" to influence the officials too. So if a competition have lots of guys like that... is a "delegate" really still necessary? I've seen competitions where several delegates were present but only one was officially recognized as the "delegate." If there are people who would be qualified as a delegate, getting an official person might be a hassle.
> 3. Cost. Again, I'm lucky that there are at least somebody nearby. But what about all those other people who have literally no one (delegate wise) nearby? They would have to pay for the entire cost to just bring one. In my case, unless 100+ people showup, I wouldn't be able to pay for the whole trip for any delegate.



You realize that delegates are not set in stone, it is actually possible to become a delegate. Or I guess I shouldn't say that, they are kind of set in stone, the stone has more room for names though . If you are qualified to become a delegate, you can become one if necessary.

Anyway, there are many reasons for a need of a delegate. You seem to not know most of them which means you do not know all of the responsibilities of a delegate, so I would not choose you as a good candidate to become one. That is just my opinion though. If Ron or Tyson thinks otherwise, it is possible to become one.


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## Bob (Mar 27, 2009)

jhong253 said:


> 3. Cost. Again, I'm lucky that there are at least somebody nearby. But what about all those other people who have literally no one (delegate wise) nearby? They would have to pay for the entire cost to just bring one. In my case, unless 100+ people showup, I wouldn't be able to pay for the whole trip for any delegate.



1. I doubt that. How expensive is your venue? When I held a competition and got 90 competitors, it brought in almost $1000. How expensive do you figure it is to pay for a delegate's trip?



PatrickJameson said:


> If you are qualified to become a delegate, you can become one.


But, is he?


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## PatrickJameson (Mar 27, 2009)

Bob said:


> PatrickJameson said:
> 
> 
> > If you are qualified to become a delegate, you can become one.
> ...





PatrickJameson said:


> Anyway, there are many reasons for a need of a delegate. You seem to not know most of them which means you do not know all of the responsibilities of a delegate, so I would not choose you as a good candidate to become one. That is just my opinion though. If Ron or Tyson thinks otherwise, it is possible to become one.


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## DavidWoner (Mar 27, 2009)

Ton said:


> Well some dedication is required from WCA delegates, I have traveled to Czech ,will go to Indonesia to be WCA delegate . Much more as the 450 miles...
> 
> 450 miles can just be driver by car by one person, so if you would rembours travel cost of an WCA delegate I am sure you will find one



Of course it can be done fairly easily. I was only pointing out that just because the US has many delegates it doesnt mean that there will be one nearby, since most of them are concentrated in the outer parts of the country. I actually think its easier in Europe, as almost every major European nation has at least one delegate.


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## Tyson (Mar 27, 2009)

Most delegates have started their cubing lives as organizers of strong competitions. In terms of strong, I mean in terms of the organization of the tournament, and not the strength of the competitors. After a person has demonstrated that they are a competent organizer, and a confident manager in terms of staff, we would move to considering that person as a delegate, if it's necessary. Many cubers would be very capable delegates, but they are not because it is not necessary for additional delegates in those areas. For areas far from WCA delegates, it is up to the people of those areas to demonstrate confidence in running a WCA competition and unfortunately if that doesn't happen, the area is left without a convenient delegate to host competitions.

But some people are not even competent as organizers, that we wouldn't approve the competition because the delegate would end up doing too much work, as Bryan says. And some delegates will decline to attend certain competitions run by organizers, for the similar reason that they do not feel the organizer will do a good job. If a competition fails, it is up to the delegate to make sure all the rules are followed, and that's much harder when the competition is a complete mess.


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## Bryan (Mar 28, 2009)

I think one of the problems you had is that you made the WCA delegate an afterthought. Once you had the venue secured, you then just asked some delegates if they would come. Jim, the most obvious choice, couldn't because he had some conflicts. If you would have talked to Jim first, you could have figured out what dates Jim was free and this wouldn't have been an issue.

Since you're far enough from me that it would be a full day of travelling, I would be required to take 2 vacation days from my job in order to go down there.

Have you even asked Tyson about another potential delegate? Perhaps Mike. Although, I'm not sure of the wisdom of having a delegate that may be unaccessible for an hour straight. 

Scheduling a competition first and then trying to find a delegate is not the way to go, especially if you aren't in California.


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## Jhong253 (Mar 28, 2009)

@mccliff, yes, I did say many. If you look at competitions, many have experienced competitors. But again, a lot do not as well. That's why I said earlier I believe that sometimes a delegate is definitely needed.

@Patrick, keep in mind that I never said I was qualified to become one. In fact, I don't feel ready to have that kind of huge responsibilities either. So don't go around assuming too much, because sometimes that can be a bit offensive. And I do know that having a delegate is very important, because I organized a competition back in December and having a delegate really helped.

@Bob, 90 people are not going to show up at my competition. There's just simply no way. There aren't that many cubers around here compared to east coast. Besides, if I had to pay for the entire trip of a delegate, I'd have to pay for the hotel, transportation, etc etc etc. The cost is just going to be ridiculously high. Even you said yourself it was too expensive. 

@Tyson, I know what you are saying. But I mean in organizing sense too. If there are bunch of competitors who would be just as qualified to be a delegate present, then canceling an event because a delegate can't come (I may have to do that...) may be a bit too much. Some people spend months preparing, and having all that work thrown out the window might be a bit too much. 
Also... think my situation as an example. Would having a temporary "delegate" help? Jim is a college student, and he is unsure if he will be around. What if there are others (who are strong organizers) around who would like to organize a competition? What if Jim is not around, and organizer can't pay for a far away delegate to come? The only reason really why I brought this up is because my venue director (who did some reading on WCA regulation) is pressuring me to get a delegate, and I've gotten stuck in a weird hole now. Maybe you guys think I am not good enough to take run this competition this time, maybe that's why I'm not getting a delegate. But if you guys think something like that is an issue... tell me.

@Bryan, actually I thought about the delegate beforehand. I asked Jim about his availability before I even talked to the venue. Jim said he would "most likely" be able to delegate, and he said there was a good chance he would be available. That was the reason why I kind of gambled... I DID NOT think of the delegate as the afterthought. It was my top priority in the beginning.


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## Lord Voldemort (Mar 28, 2009)

jhong253 said:


> @mccliff, yes, I did say many. If you look at competitions, many have experienced competitors. *But again, a lot do not as well.* That's why I said earlier I believe that sometimes a delegate is definitely needed.



So then, who would be there to determine when there is going to be an experienced competitor and when there isn't going to be one? It really wouldn't be possible to know ahead of time who is going to come and who won't.


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## Jhong253 (Mar 28, 2009)

Lord Voldemort said:


> jhong253 said:
> 
> 
> > @mccliff, yes, I did say many. If you look at competitions, many have experienced competitors. *But again, a lot do not as well.* That's why I said earlier I believe that sometimes a delegate is definitely needed.
> ...



You don't just randomly start a competition. You look at the potential competitors, those who are nearby, etc. In my case, there are experienced competitors nearby and a delegate too. Again, I said that sometimes a delegate is _definitely_ needed. Don't ignore that part.


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## Lord Voldemort (Mar 28, 2009)

I hope I don't sound too... annoyed/pissed off.

"You don't just randomly start a competition. You look at the potential competitors, those who are nearby, etc. In my case, there are experienced competitors nearby and a delegate too. Again, I said that sometimes a delegate is definitely needed. Stop ignoring that part."

I'm not ignoring that, just noticing the sometimes part. 
I want to point out that while you may have certain conditions, not everyone else has the benefits that you do.


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## Jhong253 (Mar 28, 2009)

Lord Voldemort said:


> I hope I don't sound too... annoyed/pissed off.
> 
> "You don't just randomly start a competition. You look at the potential competitors, those who are nearby, etc. In my case, there are experienced competitors nearby and a delegate too. Again, I said that sometimes a delegate is definitely needed. Stop ignoring that part."
> 
> ...



Yes, there are many people around who are in worse situations than I am in terms of organizing sense. Yes, I have some benefits. 
But I'm about to have almost 4 months of work thrown right out the wind because of one of the "benefits" I have. Would you be very happy in situations like this?
I understand almost everything goes the opposite way I'd want it to happen, and I understand the delegates have their own lives to take care of. But, I would try everything I can do to try to get around that before my work gets thrown out. Quitting isn't always the best solution. I'm trying to do everything I can before I quit.

Somehow, this got kind of off topic. My original intention was to discuss about the need of delegates, but it turned into a topic about Indiana.


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## Tyson (Mar 29, 2009)

Jhong253 said:


> Lord Voldemort said:
> 
> 
> > I hope I don't sound too... annoyed/pissed off.
> ...



Why didn't you work with a delegate throughout the entire process? You wouldn't be in this situation if you had worked continually with the delegate throughout your process.


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## Jhong253 (Mar 29, 2009)

Tyson said:


> Why didn't you work with a delegate throughout the entire process? You wouldn't be in this situation if you had worked continually with the delegate throughout your process.



Why would a delegate want work with me unless he's a co-organizer or something? Besides, I don't think a delegate would do that unless he's absolutely sure he's delegating. I did that last time with Jim, and I felt I bugged him too much.


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