# New Method/Concept Thread



## guitardude7241 (Aug 3, 2009)

I've been seeing all sorts of new concepts for methods, different suggestions for doing parts of an already existing method, and every possible change you could imagine to a method. Does anyone else think new methods, or any change to an already existing method, be posted in this thread and discussed, instead of having countless different threads?


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## xXdaveXsuperstarXx (Aug 3, 2009)

Well, it either boils down to a crappy hybrid method that uses +80 moves or some method that has horrendous look ahead and usability.


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## CuBeOrDiE (Aug 3, 2009)

Well...here's my method...it's fairly well discussed already though:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LAG-JcNTXgg


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## guitardude7241 (Aug 3, 2009)

True, but I'd guess there will be a few good ideas, with the majority being horrible ideas. Those few good ideas would be worth obtaining, even if there were many horrible ideas posted.


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## CuBeOrDiE (Aug 3, 2009)

how about my idea? Your opinion plz


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## Robert-Y (Aug 3, 2009)

guitardude7241 said:


> True, but I'd guess there will be a few good ideas, with the majority being horrible ideas. Those few good ideas would be worth obtaining, even if there were many horrible ideas posted.



I think this thread is a good idea. I think if one of us comes up with a good method/concept, then we could start a new thread for that method/concept. We can simply just forget about the bad ideas in this thread.


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## guitardude7241 (Aug 3, 2009)

CuBeOrDiE said:


> how about my idea? Your opinion plz


I find Petrus much better. It's a true blockbuilding method, rather than placing corners, then edges.


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## CuBeOrDiE (Aug 3, 2009)

thats not exactly my method...I do place edges though. I personally prefer it to f2l pairs or block building.


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## guitardude7241 (Aug 3, 2009)

CuBeOrDiE said:


> thats not exactly my method...I do place edges though. I personally prefer it to f2l pairs or block building.


If you learned petrus/roux, you'd find those ideas of blockbuilding are much better, with practice. Plus, you're biased towards your method of getting the 2x2x3 block, because you created it.


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## CuBeOrDiE (Aug 3, 2009)

ya...but i just will never get the hang of block building, and I don't really like f2l pairs...

anyway,using different methods is a matter of taste and oppinion


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## xXdaveXsuperstarXx (Aug 3, 2009)

I think we should spit out random stuff in this thread until someone comes up with a good idea! Like.......
Building a 2x2x1 block on the right side and a 2x2x1 block on the left side. That would leave much more freedom of movement to solve corners or edges or anything else.


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## guitardude7241 (Aug 3, 2009)

xXdaveXsuperstarXx said:


> I think we should spit out random stuff in this thread until someone comes up with a good idea! Like.......
> Building a 2x2x1 block on the right side and a 2x2x1 block on the left side. That would leave much more freedom of movement to solve corners or edges or anything else.


Please, no useless, random ideas. That 2x2x1 block idea is just the Roux method on estrogen.


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## Robert-Y (Aug 3, 2009)

Ok here's an idea for petrus users: After the 2x2x3 block, orient the edges permute the corners in such a way that the corners can be solved using just <R,U> moves. Finish the F2L (so you have a 2x3x3 block), then finish the LL (EPLL+COLL). I don't know anything about the move count. I only just came up with this idea a few hours ago. I have a feeling that EJF2L is better...


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## Swordsman Kirby (Aug 3, 2009)

Robert-Y said:


> Ok here's an idea for petrus users: After the 2x2x3 block, orient the edges permute the corners in such a way that the corners can be solved using just <R,U> moves. Finish the F2L (so you have a 2x3x3 block), then finish the LL (EPLL+COLL). I don't know anything about the move count. I only just came up with this idea a few hours ago. I have a feeling that EJF2L is better...



I only just came up with that two years ago.


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## qqwref (Aug 3, 2009)

Yeah, it's been tried, and I tried to help come up with the CP algs before realizing the recognition was impossible 

A similar idea was to use ZZ or intuitive VH to orient edges before/during the last Fridrich slot, and then insert the pair while solving CP. Then you can do the entire last layer 2gen, and as it turns out one-look last layer is quite feasible (~80 cases, I believe). The recognition's better for this, but still pretty difficult.


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## xXdaveXsuperstarXx (Aug 4, 2009)

I just came up with this, build a 2x2x2 block Then build 2x2x1 blocks around it, then fix bad edges. Then you solve the rest of the cube with only R and U (or L and U depending on how you fix them. R U is more preferred though).


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## Cyrok215 (Aug 4, 2009)

I think that sounds alot like petrus.


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## xXdaveXsuperstarXx (Aug 4, 2009)

It is a lot like petrus. Except it has a faster last layer.


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## Cride5 (Aug 4, 2009)

*Extended Phasing (ZZ)*

Probably not new, but I'll mention it anyway:

On insertion of the final C+E Pair of ZZ F2L, solve LL edge permutation, to allow finish with non-edge permuting COLL. Setting up edge permutation can be done with 2-gen algs. 

Normal phasing (i.e. permuting two opposite edges) can be done quite easily using the sexy move (R U R' U'). Do it, by keeping the FR C+E pair in the front-left of the U-layer, then apply the sexy move until the UL edge is opposite the correct edge in UR, then insert the pair using U R U2 R'.

To convince you all algs can be 2-gen: If you have a cube with phased (but not correctly permuted) LL edges, they can be fixed using this long, but pretty nice 2-gen alg: R U2 R2 U2 R' U2 R U2 R' U2 R2 U2 R

After that, its non-edge permuting COLL and yer done 

I don't know how many algs are required to do this in one look, or how many moves are required on average, but it might be worth checking out if interested in phasing, but don't immediately want to learn all 80 ZZLL algs.


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## xXdaveXsuperstarXx (Aug 4, 2009)

That's genius! When you instert the last pair it orients the edge then you can solve and permutate the corners. So you can solve the LL in one algorithm. BTW you should do the top 2x2x1 2nd.


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## qqwref (Aug 5, 2009)

xXdaveXsuperstarXx said:


> I just came up with this, build a 2x2x2 block Then build 2x2x1 blocks around it, then fix bad edges. Then you solve the rest of the cube with only R and U (or L and U depending on how you fix them. R U is more preferred though).



That's exactly the same as Petrus, just with a 2gen last layer (which is impossible by the way, you probably forgot about corner permutation). But pretty much everyone who uses Petrus nowadays does OLL PLL or COLL EPLL, so it actually is the same as Petrus.



Cride5 said:


> On insertion of the final C+E Pair of ZZ F2L, solve LL edge permutation, to allow finish with non-edge permuting COLL. Setting up edge permutation can be done with 2-gen algs.



The problem I see is that it takes quite a few moves to do the edge permutation (at least 4, right? and possibly way more), and the recognition is pretty difficult because you have to look at the stickers RU, BU, LU, and RF, all of which matter (unlike PLL) because 2-cycles can happen. In addition I can't see any quick way to fix an edge 2-cycle (adjacent or opposite).

As for CLL with edges solved, it sounds like a cool concept, but I've looked at the set of algs before and in practice there are a lot of ugly cases... corner 3-cycle with the fourth corner twisted, tons of E-perm cases, that kind of thing. It's not all that nice.


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## Cride5 (Aug 5, 2009)

qqwref said:


> Cride5 said:
> 
> 
> > On insertion of the final C+E Pair of ZZ F2L, solve LL edge permutation, to allow finish with non-edge permuting COLL. Setting up edge permutation can be done with 2-gen algs.
> ...



Although I've not checked, I have a hunch that you're probably right about the terrible move count. The fact a completed F2L with unsolved, but phased edges requires a 13-mover to solve 2-gen is a bit worrying! I'd imagine that COLL followed by EPLL is probably easier .... buuut, I guess there's no harm in having a look at the algs if you've got the time to kill


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## PlutoCuber (Aug 5, 2009)

well i created a method awhile ago based on the roux and fridrich method. i posted it on youtube and people said that it was copying. I think you'd probably have to come up with something completely original.


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## guitardude7241 (Aug 8, 2009)

PlutoCuber said:


> well i created a method awhile ago based on the roux and fridrich method. i posted it on youtube and people said that it was copying. I think you'd probably have to come up with something completely original.


Hybrids of already well-known and efficient methods are generally not well-accepted, unless they are more efficient than the original method(s). If it was more efficient than Roux and Fridrich, your 11 year old self would be rather lucky.
:fp


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## ErikJ (Aug 8, 2009)

Robert-Y said:


> Ok here's an idea for petrus users: After the 2x2x3 block, orient the edges permute the corners in such a way that the corners can be solved using just <R,U> moves. Finish the F2L (so you have a 2x3x3 block), then finish the LL (EPLL+COLL). I don't know anything about the move count. I only just came up with this idea a few hours ago. I have a feeling that EJF2L is better...



Lars said that he used to flip edges and fix corners before finishing the F2L. one of the original components to his method. it's really efficient but it's not practical for speedsolving because of the time it takes to see what has to be done to the corners.


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## Robert-Y (Aug 8, 2009)

@ErikJ: Oh ok thanks

Ok erm... I've got another idea, but it involves learning ELL then CLL.

If you have an OLL parity on the 4x4x4, then you could do this instead:

1. ELL (with one edge flipped)

2 a. If you can recognise the CLL case, then do the pure OLL parity algorithm.
b. If you cannot recognise the CLL case, then do the non-pure double parity algorithm.

3. CLL.


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## Robert-Y (Aug 9, 2009)

With the first step of my idea above, how many algorithms would you have to learn?

EDIT: Is it just... 11?


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## JTW2007 (Aug 10, 2009)

Okay, this is a hybrid, but don't flame me. What about:

1. 2x2x1 on left
2. 1x2x3 on right (as in Roux)
3. Expand the 2x2x1 block to 1x2x3 while solving all top layer corners
4. Finish as in Roux.


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## somerandomkidmike (Aug 10, 2009)

JTW2007 said:


> Okay, this is a hybrid, but don't flame me. What about:
> 
> 1. 2x2x1 on left
> 2. 1x2x3 on right (as in Roux)
> ...



It works, but it's not really faster. The recognition would be worse for this.


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## JLarsen (Aug 10, 2009)

This is a method that combines full cls with Petrus.

Step 1. Solve any three edges around a corner. This is essentially a 2x2 block with a missing corner.

Step 2. Expand to a direction then avoids "bad corners". If an LL corner is trapped in the 2x2 you cannot solve it with a cls case. You must expand to a direction that makes it so that the corner in the 2x2 block, is not one that belongs in your last layer. 

Step 3. Bad Edges

Step 4. Step 4

Step 5. CLS

Step 6. PLL

This has been come up with before I just thought I'd share it since it's not too well known. Keep in mind it is best to be fully CN to avoid bad corners, otherwise you have to make 2x2 blocks making *SURE* you don't contain a bad corner within, and that doesn't really save hardly as many moves. You can also merely place 2 edges next to a 2x2 block, that way 2x2x3 is just tracking 2 pieces.


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## Robert-Y (Aug 22, 2009)

Another edge pairing method for the 4x4x4 

Name: NOH (Nakajima-Omura-Hardwick)

How it works:

Step 1. Pair up 4 edges and place them on U layer then do z2

Step 2. Do d, replace 3 dedges, do d' to solve 3 edges (or 2 if there's a "problem"). In this step, you do not need to look on the bottom layer for edges. 

Step 3. 2 pair chain solving. In this step, you can just look at the top layer for the edges.


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## jcuber (Aug 24, 2009)

2x2 cross between CLL and Ortega

Make first layer (orientation only)

Solve the last layer and permutation of the first layer in 1 algorithm

I think it requires 3(?) times the amount of CLLs.

I thought about this when I realized how much easier it is to make a layer when only orientation matters.


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## Robert-Y (Aug 24, 2009)

That's EG.


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## guitardude7241 (Nov 20, 2009)

I'm reviving this because people keep on making threads about methods. You're welcome.


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## gamemeister27 (Feb 27, 2010)

EDIT: I'm retarded, and got confused with my tabs and thought this thread was new, my mistake!


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## (R) (Feb 27, 2010)

guitardude7241 said:


> I'm reviving this because people keep on making threads about methods. You're welcome.



I hate you


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## palmcubes (Sep 12, 2010)

i had an idea rouw but for cll first do oll to oreint edges on ll if botom edges are oriented permute corners if not do M2 and use 2 special algs that will flip them

oh and if one ontop is fliped and one on botom just bring um both up


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## somerandomkidmike (Sep 12, 2010)

palmcubes said:


> i had an idea rouw but for cll first do oll to oreint edges on ll if botom edges are oriented permute corners if not do M2 and use 2 special algs that will flip them
> 
> oh and if one ontop is fliped and one on botom just bring um both up



I don't understand what you're trying to say.


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## dannyz0r (Sep 12, 2010)

somerandomkidmike said:


> palmcubes said:
> 
> 
> > i had an idea rouw but for cll first do oll to oreint edges on ll if botom edges are oriented permute corners if not do M2 and use 2 special algs that will flip them
> ...



F2B->Orient Corners->Orient Edges->Permute Corners->Don't permute edges


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## somerandomkidmike (Sep 12, 2010)

dannyz0r said:


> somerandomkidmike said:
> 
> 
> > palmcubes said:
> ...



The CMLL is shorter because you don't have the edges oriented. This is not a very good idea.


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## dannyz0r (Sep 12, 2010)

somerandomkidmike said:


> dannyz0r said:
> 
> 
> > somerandomkidmike said:
> ...



I don't like it either. The edges never get permuted.


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## iasimp1997 (Sep 12, 2010)

gamemeister27 said:


> EDIT: I'm retarded, and got confused with my tabs and thought this thread was new, my mistake!



And then you bump it again?


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## StachuK1992 (Sep 13, 2010)

This isn't really new.
But kitty and I (well, at least I. He said he probably would) are planning on learning CPLS and 2GLL for OH ZZ solves.

I've been generating nice OH algs for CPLS, and they're probably averaging somewhere around ~10 moves, and most feel pretty nice.

I think this could be a really neat and fast system. For info on recognition, wait a day or two. I plan on making a nice wiki article on it, but I have some stuff I have to take care of first.

Thoughts on CPLS/2GLL?


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## riffz (Sep 13, 2010)

Stachuk1992 said:


> This isn't really new.
> But kitty and I (well, at least I. He said he probably would) are planning on learning CPLS and 2GLL for OH ZZ solves.
> 
> I've been generating nice OH algs for CPLS, and they're probably averaging somewhere around ~10 moves, and most feel pretty nice.
> ...



Thoughts? Sounds awesome. (Though I don't have any use for it myself.) The only problem I can see is the recognition (not necessarily for 2GLL, but CPLS) slowing you down. Correct me if I'm wrong, but recognizing corner permutation before orientation would mean multiple recognition cases for each CP case, wouldn't it? I'm interested to see your recogniton system.


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## StachuK1992 (Sep 13, 2010)

riffz said:


> Stachuk1992 said:
> 
> 
> > This isn't really new.
> ...


It's really not bad.
Gah, I'm doing so much stuff tonight, including making the wiki page for this. (this, CPLS no-rotation list, publishing CPLS and 2GLL alg lists (they're nice!) finding better algs on the Polish site, finally giving something to Macky, etc)

To give you a glimpse.

The first example doesn't work, but I think you'll get the jist - I'll try to explain this better night.

My beta version for my alg sheet(s).
I've already noted a few mistakes there, so don't bother telling me of them yet. Obviously, the page isn't complete.

Have fun!,
-statue

Edit - removed the link in the first post because it revealed someone's name, and idk if they're okay with that or whatever. 


Baian Liu said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## StachuK1992 (Sep 14, 2010)

I feel bad for double-posting twice at once for bumpage, but this is relevant to both threads, and not yet worthy of its own thread. Sorry, mods. 
http://db.tt/KIRzYvL


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## bluedasher (Sep 14, 2010)

This is what I was thinking...
Maybe their is such a way to insert your last F2L pair so that you have a cross on top and the LL is set up in such a way that when you do your OLL algorithm it forces a PLL skip. Just and Idea, let me know what you think.(I guess it is somewhat similar to COLL).


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## Andrew Ricci (Sep 14, 2010)

bluedasher said:


> This is what I was thinking...
> Maybe their is such a way to insert your last F2L pair so that you have a cross on top and the LL is set up in such a way that when you do your OLL algorithm it forces a PLL skip. Just and Idea, let me know what you think.(I guess it is somewhat similar to COLL).



Umm...

Isn't that ZB?


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## waffle=ijm (Sep 14, 2010)

It's called ZB


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## bluedasher (Sep 14, 2010)

theanonymouscuber said:


> bluedasher said:
> 
> 
> > This is what I was thinking...
> ...



If it is, forgive me, I'm not familiar with these cubing terms and what they do. I've only heard of ZBF2L. Or is that the same as ZB?


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## Andrew Ricci (Sep 14, 2010)

bluedasher said:


> theanonymouscuber said:
> 
> 
> > bluedasher said:
> ...



ZBF2L is inserting the last pair so the "cross" on top is formed. 

And don't worry, I won't judge.


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## oll+phase+sync (Oct 1, 2010)

xXdaveXsuperstarXx said:


> I think we should spit out random stuff in this thread until someone comes up with a good idea! Like.......
> Building a 2x2x1 block on the right side and a 2x2x1 block on the left side. That would leave much more freedom of movement to solve corners or edges or anything else.


 
When I want to solve the Cube with almost guarenteed sub 40 movecount (Slices Turn Metric) in let say 5minutes this 2x2x1 + 2x2x1 thing is exactly what I do. then I extend both parts to 3x2x1 blocks and then I'm at NONMATCHINGCOLOURS Roux. I think that is pretty cool, but it's not new.


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## QCcuber4 (Oct 1, 2010)

Im pretty sure im not the first one to come up with this, but i recently thought of a faster way to bld with 3OP 2 weeks ago, im working on getting used to it, but i think it's much more efficient than M2, old pochmann or classic 3OP...

I simply orient and permute pieces in 3 cycles, with set up moves that switch the orientation of whatever piece that has to be... Is hard to explain, its pretty intuitive rly, i havent written down any algs for it, i use U and A perms, and T Y or J perm for parity... but apart from that its not much harder. If you want more explaination jsut ask I'd be glad to shoot some details out.


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## Kirjava (Oct 1, 2010)

QCcuber4 said:


> I simply orient and permute pieces in 3 cycles, with set up moves that switch the orientation of whatever piece that has to be... Is hard to explain, its pretty intuitive rly, i havent written down any algs for it, i use U and A perms, and T Y or J perm for parity... but apart from that its not much harder. If you want more explaination jsut ask I'd be glad to shoot some details out.


 
Wow, that sounds like a much more freestyle way of doing things.


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## oll+phase+sync (Oct 1, 2010)

M yMethode Idea for Speedcubing 3x3 : White first -1

Step 1: You build the White Face first, but You can leave on Edge Unsolved.

Pros: Just looking at Cubies wich have white on them makes Lookahaed much easier. 
Pros: Just 13 - 17 Moves many can be planed in preinspection. Most of the Time I solv a 3x2x1 and just append the missing two corners

Step 2: Position and Orient the Corners of the Last Layer - My set of Roux-Algs works for that pretty well. But there should be Improvments for many cases as I do not need to care about the middle layer. should be possible in 10 moves.

Step 3: Place 3 Edges of LL (wich is maybe the right side) 12 Moves - Very Cornersfirst like alway look for the next to place


Step 4: This is the EO + Finish First and Last LAyer Step - 

I'm not sure how to optimize this: Using Roux-EO averages 11-12 moves , but is difficult because of the "Non matching colors" ... That forces Yout to look closely to your Edges White and Yellow edges, wich gives you additional optimization potential.

Personaly I only Use Roux-EO in obvious/short cases, otherwise I yust place the Edges and orien afterwards. (6 + 8 = moves )

Step 4.5 Last 4 Moves / 4Cases To Complete the Cube

As you might complein it is very similar to Roux but without building Roux-Step 2 , though it skips an step that requires "Unoriented Blockbuilding without Preinspection" - maybe good to skip this


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## QCcuber4 (Oct 1, 2010)

Kirjava said:


> Wow, that sounds like a much more freestyle way of doing things.


 
yeah lol I just found a thread about it right after writing that comment. It is freestyle, a bit like BH. I jsut never thought it was freestyle since it looked just like 3op but without orienting... lol oh well.


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## Billbowser (Oct 3, 2010)

I Have 2x2 Speedcubing idea method:OPAC(Orient and Permute All Cubies)
1st step:Orient the cube,twist all the corner WITHOUT Permute the cubies to make the U/D sticker in U/D face with 1 of very much algs in one execution.
2nd stepermute All the cubies to their position with 1 of very much algs in one execution,and the cube solved.
That will be a good method,1 look solve with very much algs.


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## RCTACameron (Oct 3, 2010)

theanonymouscuber said:


> ZBF2L is inserting the last pair so the "cross" on top is formed.



How about this:

Inserting the last F2L pair while making the cross on top _and_ permuting two of the LL edges.  Kind of complicated, but it could mean a 1 look LL. There would be 6 possibilities for permuting the last 2 edges, excluding when they're already solved. So, 40 CLLs (I think) x 6 = 240. The cases would probably be slightly different, due to the mispermuted edges meaning mispermuted corners. However, it would probably still be 240 new cases to learn.

I hope that hasn't already been done before.


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## riffz (Oct 3, 2010)

Billbowser said:


> I Have 2x2 Speedcubing idea method:OPAC(Orient and Permute All Cubies)
> 1st step:Orient the cube,twist all the corner WITHOUT Permute the cubies to make the U/D sticker in U/D face with 1 of very much algs in one execution.
> 2nd stepermute All the cubies to their position with 1 of very much algs in one execution,and the cube solved.
> That will be a good method,1 look solve with very much algs.


 
Try generating some algs for the first step and you'll change your mind. Inspection and recog would be ridiculous as well.


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## abctoshiro (Oct 3, 2010)

For Roux...how many algs do you need for a 1-part/look L6E? I think it's about 100+. Just let me know. I'll generate if it's just few. 

I think the 3-part L6E is better but I'm just curious.


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## Kirjava (Oct 3, 2010)

[abc]toshiro;464058 said:


> For Roux...how many algs do you need for a 1-part/look L6E? I think it's about 100+


 
2880


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## BC1997 (Oct 3, 2010)

well i connected an extended cross the megaminx v method F2L OLL and PLL :fp its sucks


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## oll+phase+sync (Oct 3, 2010)

RCTACameron said:


> How about this:
> 
> Inserting the last F2L pair while making the cross on top _and_ permuting two of the LL edges.  Kind of complicated, but it could mean a 1 look LL. There would be 6 possibilities for permuting the last 2 edges, excluding when they're already solved. So, 40 CLLs (I think) x 6 = 240. The cases would probably be slightly different, due to the mispermuted edges meaning mispermuted corners. However, it would probably still be 240 new cases to learn.
> 
> I hope that hasn't already been done before.



The last 2 Edges (oriented) have just 2 posible permutations that's ZZLL


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## uberCuber (Oct 4, 2010)

oll+phase+sync said:


> The last 2 Edges (oriented) have just 2 posible permutations that's ZZLL


 
It is ZZLL, but the last 2 edges are more complicated than just swapped or not swapped. The set of 4 edges can be in different positions _relative to the corners_, so there are more than 2 permutations per COLL case. There are 168 ZZLL cases in total. (i think)


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## oll+phase+sync (Oct 7, 2010)

Definetly ther are 42 Corner cases just 2 Edge Cases and obviously they can be twisted against each other. 

This twist also seems to be only 180° (there is for example only one H-Perm )


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