# New Z perm?



## mynameiswillem (Aug 1, 2010)

im not sure if this is a new Z perm or not but i just "found" it one day by messing with OLLs. the algorithm is:

R' U' l' U l F' U R F' U' L' U L F

its a combination of two OLL algorithms that i got from cubestation.co.uk (case #45 and case #38). it swaps the F and R edges and L and B edges. so if you use those OLLS you already know it or if dont, you learn 2 OLLs at the same time. its a good algorithm i think for a PLL and if you dont mind some work from the left hand. but if you guys already knew that Z perm then im sorry for taking up a spot on the first page. 

oh and even though i joined like 1.5 years ago im just now starting to browse regularly.

and if this thread needs more to be a productive thread, lets talk about OH solving! my pb is 45s with my left hand and i never have really practiced before but im starting to now. and what is the percentage of speedcubers that can even solve one handed?


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## Radcuber (Aug 1, 2010)

No - It just messes up the cube and keeps a 1 x 2 x 2 block intact... - A pretty crappy alg.


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## Radcuber (Aug 1, 2010)

*1 x 2 x 3 block.


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## mynameiswillem (Aug 1, 2010)

Radcuber said:


> No - It just messes up the cube and keeps a 1 x 2 x 2 block intact... - A pretty crappy alg.



my bad. its fixed now (i hope) now try it


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## a small kitten (Aug 1, 2010)

M2' U' M' U2' M2' U2' M' U M2'

5 moves shorter and 2 gen. Your Z perm is certainly interesting but I'm not sure if it's very practical. 

I like OH. It's tasty.


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## waffle=ijm (Aug 1, 2010)

a small kitten said:


> I like OH. It's tasty.



So are small kittens?

ON topic - I don't see it as a practical alg. It feels really awkward when I try do it.


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## mynameiswillem (Aug 1, 2010)

a small kitten said:


> M2' U' M' U2' M2' U2' M' U M2'
> 
> 5 moves shorter and 2 gen. Your Z perm is certainly interesting but I'm not sure if it's very practical.
> 
> I like OH. It's tasty.



ehh i dont like slice moves. i might make a youtube video of it and post it here.


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## Radcuber (Aug 1, 2010)

I swear I'm actually a total idiot, or that alg. is still crappy cos it still just messed up the cube.... -.- And @a small kitten I hope you're joking about being a satanist. Yes that's right, satanists DON'T deserve capital letters.


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## BigGreen (Aug 1, 2010)

mynameiswillem said:


> a small kitten said:
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> > M2' U' M' U2' M2' U2' M' U M2'
> ...



SLICE MOVES DONT LIKE YOU EITHER


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## Edward (Aug 1, 2010)

Radcuber said:


> I swear I'm actually a total idiot, or that alg. is still *crappy cos it still just messed up the cube....* -.- And @a small kitten I hope you're joking about being a satanist. Yes that's right, satanists DON'T deserve capital letters.



You're doing it wrong then.


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## waffle=ijm (Aug 1, 2010)

BigGreen said:


> mynameiswillem said:
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<3


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## Radcuber (Aug 1, 2010)

Oh wait don't worry scratch mah last comment, it worked. I'd rather stick to the M2 U M2 U etc etc.alg thank you very much


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## iChanZer0 (Aug 1, 2010)

waffle=ijm said:


> BigGreen said:
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<3


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## Radcuber (Aug 1, 2010)

Yup I'm an idiot.


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## Daniel Que (Aug 1, 2010)

Try: M2 U2 M' U M2 U M2 U M'

I used to hate Z perms, but when I came up with this one, it's one of my favourites. I've been able to do it as fast as 1.02 seconds.


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## mynameiswillem (Aug 1, 2010)

Daniel Que said:


> Try: M2 U2 M' U M2 U M2 U M'
> 
> I used to hate Z perms, but when I came up with this one, it's one of my favourites. I've been able to do it as fast as 1.02 seconds.



dont you need a U' after that?


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## Daniel Que (Aug 1, 2010)

mynameiswillem said:


> Daniel Que said:
> 
> 
> > Try: M2 U2 M' U M2 U M2 U M'
> ...



Oh yeah, that's true. But it's still really good.


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## mynameiswillem (Aug 1, 2010)

on another note: do you listen to music while you cube? i do. i think it helps my subconscious focus and lets me focus on cubing better. i find myself singing and i didnt notice it. what music do you listen to? The Doors ftw.


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## a small kitten (Aug 1, 2010)

I listen to music all the time but you should also practice without it. They don't allow listening to music at comps so you should know how to focus without music.


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## Radcuber (Aug 1, 2010)

Err there's sortta already a thread for this "Favourite (music) artist"  I started it ^_^ And @ a small kitten I really hope you aren't really a satanist.


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## mynameiswillem (Aug 1, 2010)

a small kitten said:


> I listen to music all the time but you should also practice without it. They don't allow listening to music at comps so you should know how to focus without music.



yeah its not that big of a problem.

what music do YOU listen to?


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## mynameiswillem (Aug 1, 2010)

Radcuber said:


> It does though, not being mean on purpose, as waffle said it feels weird/uncomfortable on my hands or fingers or whatever, not sure which one really.



yes like i said it sorta requires ambidextrousness


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## mynameiswillem (Aug 1, 2010)

and on the subject of OH solving: is it against the rules to straighten out the layers of the cube on the table or your chest? i dont really anymore but when i first started OH i did a lot.


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## dimwmuni (Aug 1, 2010)

The Z perm is awkward because it involves (at least for me) changing hand position in the middle of the algorithm. 

The fastest I can do it is a little under 3 seconds.


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## a small kitten (Aug 1, 2010)

I would say that it is still pretty uncomfortable. Try the one I posted earlier and also R' U' R U' R U R U' R' U R U R2 U' R'. With some practice you should be able to execute both algs without stopping.

C1b) During the solve no other body part or any object other than the surface must touch the puzzle. Penalty: disqualification of the solve.

Now I know why Kir had that "cubing discussion thread". Anyway, you can't use your chest but you can use the table.


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## mynameiswillem (Aug 1, 2010)

a small kitten said:


> I would say that it is still pretty uncomfortable. Try the one I posted earlier and also R' U' R U' R U R U' R' U R U R2 U' R'. With some practice you should be able to execute both algs without stopping.



dont you need a U2 after that?


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## FatBoyXPC (Aug 1, 2010)

I think it wouldn't be that bad if I can find a way to avoid one regrip. It could be moderately quick if there were no regrips. I don't think that it could be as fast as the M2 U alg though, people who can double flick while doing the quick slice can execute that alg in 1s or less (like the sub1 H perms).

Just request a sub15 cuber to show you their Z perm, you'll see what I mean.


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## Edward (Aug 1, 2010)

mynameiswillem said:


> a small kitten said:
> 
> 
> > I would say that it is still pretty uncomfortable. Try the one I posted earlier and also R' U' R U' R U R U' R' U R U R2 U' R'. With some practice you should be able to execute both algs without stopping.
> ...



PLL alg: No need to define AUF.

And I think you're doing that crap on purpose. You know what the hell I'm talking about.


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## a small kitten (Aug 1, 2010)

You need a U2 after that only if you adjust your U layer before you execute the Z perm. You don't have to adjust. If you do then you need the U2 at the end. Or you can start the alg with a U and end with another U.

And yah, the MU alg gets very close to a 1 second execution. Some very fast people do it sub 1. Otherwise it's pretty close.


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## mynameiswillem (Aug 1, 2010)

Edward said:


> mynameiswillem said:
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i wouldnt have to if people typed their algs correctly!


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## mynameiswillem (Aug 1, 2010)

a small kitten said:


> You need a U2 after that only if you adjust your U layer before you execute the Z perm. You don't have to adjust. If you do then you need the U2 at the end. Or you can start the alg with a U and end with another U.
> 
> And yah, the MU alg gets very close to a 1 second execution. Some very fast people do it sub 1. Otherwise it's pretty close.



yeah but im in the bad habit of aligning the U face then rotating the cube then performing the algorithm so i dont have to pay attention to AUF after my PLL


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## Edward (Aug 1, 2010)

mynameiswillem said:


> Edward said:
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Your alg was typed incorrectly at first hypocrite.
And the alg is not incorrect. The AUF doesn't need to be defined.


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## a small kitten (Aug 1, 2010)

The alg is fine.

Just read this stuff: http://www.speedsolving.com/wiki/index.php/AUF


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## mynameiswillem (Aug 1, 2010)

Edward said:


> mynameiswillem said:
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and i took the initiative to FIX it! and if you performed the algorithm with the corners solved then all you have to worry about is a U2 instead of having to do AUF which is like 2look PLL


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## Edward (Aug 1, 2010)

mynameiswillem said:


> Edward said:
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What are you going on about? That made no sense.

Nothing you say gets rid of the fact that the algs in this thread are correct, and that the AUF at the end doesn't need to be mentioned.


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## joey (Aug 1, 2010)

mynameiswillem said:


> Edward said:
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Not at all. You obviously don't understand what AUF is.


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## a small kitten (Aug 1, 2010)

> and i took the initiative to FIX it! and if you performed the algorithm with the corners solved then all you have to worry about is a U2 instead of having to do AUF which is like 2look PLL



An AUF is a single move. That is nothing compared to a second PLL step. You are either suggesting that your AUF is as slow as another PLL step or that you have no idea what you're talking about.


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## mynameiswillem (Aug 1, 2010)

Edward said:


> mynameiswillem said:
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including AUF into the algorithm so when you do a Z perm with the corners in their solved positions then performing the algorithm with the attached AUF so you dont have to look at the cube after the algorithm to AUF wasting another second


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## mynameiswillem (Aug 1, 2010)

a small kitten said:


> > and i took the initiative to FIX it! and if you performed the algorithm with the corners solved then all you have to worry about is a U2 instead of having to do AUF which is like 2look PLL
> 
> 
> 
> An AUF is a single move. That is nothing compared to a second PLL step. You are either suggesting that your AUF is as slow as another PLL step or that you have no idea what you're talking about.



not AS long as a PLL but slower than a U2 if you dont know what AUF you need to do. be it U, U', or U2.


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## Edward (Aug 1, 2010)

mynameiswillem said:


> Edward said:
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:fp You obviously have no idea what you're talking about.

Here
Do "M2 U M2 U2 M2 U M2"

Now do a U'

Now do the alg from before "M2 U M2 U2 M2 U M2"

You see that the top layer is misaligned? Allign it. You've just AUF'd. Congrats. And from that you can see that the AUF in the algorithm doesn't need to be mentioned, because it's instantly recognizable, and doesn't have any affect on what the alg does to the pieces.


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## a small kitten (Aug 1, 2010)

> not AS long as a PLL but slower than a U2 if you dont know what AUF you need to do. be it U, U', or U2.



It's called practice and knowing how your alg works. You are also leaving out the cube rotation you sometimes encounter when you AUF before the PLL.


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## FatBoyXPC (Aug 1, 2010)

Willem, most people execute PLL by AUFing rather than doing a cube rotation. It saves time that way, even if you have to AUF PLL AUF.


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## Mitch15 (Aug 1, 2010)

Edward said:


> Radcuber said:
> 
> 
> > I swear I'm actually a total idiot, or that alg. is still *crappy cos it still just messed up the cube....* -.- And @a small kitten I hope you're joking about being a satanist. Yes that's right, satanists DON'T deserve capital letters.
> ...



http://xkcd.com/463/


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## mynameiswillem (Aug 1, 2010)

Edward said:


> mynameiswillem said:
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i get that! but if i align the corners before performing the alg I DONT HAVE TO AUF!!!!!! atleast with an H perm


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## a small kitten (Aug 1, 2010)

Try it on something like a G perm or R perm. Have fun.


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## joey (Aug 1, 2010)

Yes you do AUF you idiot, you just do it before hand.


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## mynameiswillem (Aug 1, 2010)

a small kitten said:


> Try it on something like a G perm or R perm. Have fun.



yes and i align the corners and perform a cube rotation! like i said before BAD HABIT.


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## mynameiswillem (Aug 1, 2010)

joey said:


> Yes you do AUF you idiot, you just do it before hand.



well not after performing a PLL when you are done with the cube. if you dont know which way to AUF after a PLL then you are floundering around when you should be slamming your hands down on the timer.


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## a small kitten (Aug 1, 2010)

> yes and i align the corners and perform a cube rotation! like i said before BAD HABIT.



That's your fault bro. Don't blame the algs or the way they are presented.

If you're floundering around then you need to practice. And eat more vegetables.


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## joey (Aug 1, 2010)

That's why you learn how to recognise AUFs before PLL.


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## mynameiswillem (Aug 1, 2010)

a small kitten said:


> > yes and i align the corners and perform a cube rotation! like i said before BAD HABIT.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



i dont flounder because i AUF before the algorithm which is what i am accustomed to.


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## Edward (Aug 1, 2010)

mynameiswillem said:


> joey said:
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> > Yes you do AUF you idiot, you just do it before hand.
> ...



Personal preference. 
But I think I can speak for most when I say that AUF PLL AUF is faster than AUF rotation PLL AUF. Especially considering AUF is one move.

Please, go educate yourself, learn a bit more about PLL, practice.


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## Edward (Aug 1, 2010)

mynameiswillem said:


> joey said:
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> > Yes you do AUF you idiot, you just do it before hand.
> ...



Personal preference. 
But I think I can speak for most when I say that AUF PLL AUF is faster than AUF rotation PLL .

Please, go educate yourself, learn a bit more about PLL, practice.


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## mynameiswillem (Aug 1, 2010)

Edward said:


> mynameiswillem said:
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I DONT AUF ROTATION PLL AUF!!! I AUF ROTATION PLL!!! no need to auf if you already did before hand....


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## a small kitten (Aug 1, 2010)

He's not saying you do. He's saying that he thinks it might be better.


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## Hyprul 9-ty2 (Aug 1, 2010)

I AUF Rotation PLL


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## mynameiswillem (Aug 1, 2010)

a small kitten said:


> He's not saying you do. He's saying that he thinks it might be better.



well i inferred he said i did.


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## Edward (Aug 1, 2010)

mynameiswillem said:


> Edward said:
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> > mynameiswillem said:
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Yes yes, I know, I edited my post long ago. Oh hey that rhymes like mister joe. Matchin' the flow, watchin' it row, like row, like row, like fight the powah, Babies in movin' traffic like busted showah...


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## FatBoyXPC (Aug 1, 2010)

Not only is joey right about learning how to recognize before PLL, but you can also recognize your AUF from one side, so look at a side that's not being moved during the last 2-3 moves of the alg.

More importantly, a small kitten is also very right: learn how your algs work and practice.

You should know how your PLL works, so you can avoid AUF + cube rotation + AUF.

Edit: Just to point out: You AUF + cube rotation, for both R perms (if you use the common algs anyway) and the Z perm have an AUF. Any alg that ends in U, U', or U2 at the end is counted as an AUF.


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## mynameiswillem (Aug 1, 2010)

and i can Y2 almost as fast as i can U2 twice.


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## Edward (Aug 1, 2010)

mynameiswillem said:


> and i can Y2 almost as fast as i can U2 twice.



Why the hell would you U4. You never need that.


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## mynameiswillem (Aug 1, 2010)

fatboyxpc said:


> Not only is joey right about learning how to recognize before PLL, but you can also recognize your AUF from one side, so look at a side that's not being moved during the last 2-3 moves of the alg.
> 
> More importantly, a small kitten is also very right: learn how your algs work and practice.
> 
> You should know how your PLL works, so you can avoid AUF + cube rotation + AUF.



its AUF + cube rotation + PLL. how hard is that? 

if i can average around 20 seconds with AUF + cube rotation + PLL, then im happy.


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## mynameiswillem (Aug 1, 2010)

Edward said:


> mynameiswillem said:
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> > and i can Y2 almost as fast as i can U2 twice.
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AUF + PLL + AUF. if AUF is U2 then YOU DO IT TWICE. HURP DURP.


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## FatBoyXPC (Aug 1, 2010)

Edward: I think he's talking about for AUF PLL AUF.

Willem: If it takes you that long to U2 you probably aren't double flicking, or it just isn't fast. a y2 takes a full second, whereas a U4 can be sub1 easily.

Edit: 
U4:
0.56, 0.52, 0.58, 0.50, 0.52

y2:
0.5, 0.46, 0.55, 0.52, 0.66

Taking to account that a single U2 would be quicker than the double U2, a U2 + y2 would obviously be the slower way to to do it. Not to mention some algs contain a U, U', or U2 at the end anyway. I realize being sub20 0.05 seconds may not matter when it comes down to world records or anything, but look at the top 100 in the world, 0.01 counts as everything.


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## mynameiswillem (Aug 1, 2010)

fatboyxpc said:


> Edward: I think he's talking about for AUF PLL AUF.
> 
> Willem: If it takes you that long to U2 you probably aren't double flicking, or it just isn't fast. a y2 takes a full second, whereas a U4 can be sub1 easily.



yes i do double flick and of course its faster than a Y2. and like i said twice before: AUF + cube rotation + PLL = bad habit. or sub-good habit.


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## Edward (Aug 1, 2010)

mynameiswillem said:


> fatboyxpc said:
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> > Edward: I think he's talking about for AUF PLL AUF.
> ...



So you realise that there is a better way. Why are you arguing against the better way?


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## mynameiswillem (Aug 1, 2010)

Edward said:


> mynameiswillem said:
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im saying we should add AUF to PLLs. now that i know im in the minority with AUF + cube rotation + PLL i will forever keep my mouth shut about adding a U, U', or U2 at the end of an algorithm.


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## jms_gears1 (Aug 1, 2010)

edward stop.
lolthread


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## FatBoyXPC (Aug 1, 2010)

Edward said:


> So you realise that there is a better way. Why are you arguing against the better way?



+1

Willem: If you end up displaying an algorithm, it doesn't hurt to add the AUF to the end, people won't bust on you for that. The only reason they came at you here is because you decided to argue with what was "right" or "wrong" and you appeared uneducated.


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## mynameiswillem (Aug 1, 2010)

fatboyxpc said:


> Edward said:
> 
> 
> > So you realise that there is a better way. Why are you arguing against the better way?
> ...



i just thought that it was customary to add a U or whatever at the end of a PLL.

so i use this R PLL: R' U2 R U2 R' F R U R' U' R' F' R2 U'. i have built the U' at the end into my muscle memory so when i execute the PLL i want the head lights of the U face to be solved so that U' solves the cube.

idk i guess the militant atheist side of me like an argument.

edit: oh and btw the R PLL was copy and pasted directly from cubestation.co.uk with the U' attached.


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## Edward (Aug 1, 2010)

mynameiswillem said:


> fatboyxpc said:
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The thing about it is, with most people, the AUF isn't always the same. Unless of course, they do like you do.


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## mynameiswillem (Aug 1, 2010)

Edward said:


> mynameiswillem said:
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ehhh. i dont think you have the authority to say most people. for all you know it could be 50/50


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## FatBoyXPC (Aug 1, 2010)

He could say "most fast people" then, and be right. One of the biggest things to get rid of to get faster is cube rotations, people will tell you over and over to minimize cube rotations, and that is an incredibly easy way to do just that.

Please note I did not say the single biggest thing as pauses would be the single biggest thing, but I think you get my point.


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## theace (Aug 1, 2010)

a small kitten said:


> M2' U' M' U2' M2' U2' M' U M2'
> 
> 5 moves shorter and 2 gen. Your Z perm is certainly interesting but I'm not sure if it's very practical.
> 
> I like OH. It's tasty.



what's 2gen?

Is there a good alternative to the Z and H perm for OH?


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## hawkmp4 (Aug 1, 2010)

theace said:


> a small kitten said:
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> > M2' U' M' U2' M2' U2' M' U M2'
> ...


2gen refers to group theory...essentially, it means that the algorithm consists solely of two types of turns. <R,U> is common, so is <M,U>.

As for the OH algs, take a look on the wiki, see if there's any you like. 
http://www.speedsolving.com/wiki/index.php/PLL


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## Whyusosrs? (Aug 1, 2010)

Radcuber said:


> Not true - People BELIEVE in it and is not taken as fact around the world. If it was proven beyond fact I think everyone would be Atheist right now.



I BELIEVE my chair will hold me up. Am I in the religion of chairs?


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## FatBoyXPC (Aug 1, 2010)

Whyusosrs? said:


> Radcuber said:
> 
> 
> > Not true - People BELIEVE in it and is not taken as fact around the world. If it was proven beyond fact I think everyone would be Atheist right now.
> ...



You just had to bring religion back into this when I thought it had been dropped, didn't you? They make PM's for what should be a closed debate.

A Small Kitten / hawkmp4: I didn't realize that M2 U' alg was 1 move shorter than the one I use (basically due to the structure of the alg I don't have a U2 if I do it with corners solved), but I could just use that one for when I'm a U2 away (so it ends up solved) and this one for when it's correct, and then use either when it's a U or U' away, heh.


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## Radcuber (Aug 1, 2010)

ambidextrousness?


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## hawkmp4 (Aug 1, 2010)

Radcuber said:


> ambidextrousness?



I has it. (mostly)
What about it?


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## Radcuber (Aug 1, 2010)

What is it I meant? I heard it before, but I've never really looked into it...


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## hawkmp4 (Aug 1, 2010)

Radcuber said:


> What is it I meant? I heard it before, but I've never really looked into it...


It means that someone can use either hand or either foot for a task. For example, I can do any alg I do with my right hand nearly as fast with my left. The reason I can't do it quite as fast is because I learned mostly right-handed algorithms and so I simply don't have as much practice left-handed.

I say I'm mostly ambidextrous because I still have some preference for certain tasks, but I can learn to do anything with either hand.


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## Edward (Aug 1, 2010)

Radcuber said:


> What is it I meant? I heard it before, but I've never really looked into it...



Any more questions?


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## Systemdertoten (Aug 1, 2010)

Edward said:


> Radcuber said:
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> > What is it I meant? I heard it before, but I've never really looked into it...
> ...



LOL wat  how did you...


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## Edward (Aug 1, 2010)

Systemdertoten said:


> Edward said:
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Does this suffice?


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## Systemdertoten (Aug 1, 2010)

I just learned something wonderful!!


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## Radcuber (Aug 1, 2010)

Ohhh, that means I'm ambidextrous xD


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## Joël (Aug 1, 2010)

mynameiswillem said:


> i just thought that it was customary to add a U or whatever at the end of a PLL.
> 
> so i use this R PLL: R' U2 R U2 R' F R U R' U' R' F' R2 U'. i have built the U' at the end into my muscle memory so when i execute the PLL i want the head lights of the U face to be solved so that U' solves the cube.



This is off-topic, but might still be interesting for some ppl: I would personally not recommend this... For this specific permutation, I often recognise it independently of the F2L, and the split second before doing the alg, I look at the FU sticker. The algorithm (without any U's at the end) will leave this sticker in place, so during the execution of the alg it's very easy to see if it ends with a U2, U or U'.

On-topic: Nah, it's not really new to find the combination of these 2 OLL's. But it's nice that you have found it on your own anyway... If you must combine them, I'd do it like: R U l U' R' U F' l' f R U R' U' f'. But I think the slice move algs are faster .


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## rubiknewbie (Aug 2, 2010)

I much prefer the sexy <RU>:

R U R' U R' U' R' U R U' R' U' R2 U R


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## Matt S (Aug 2, 2010)

I still kick this one Old School. Dan Knights style: x' R U' R' U D R' (U' D) R' U R D2 x

Lots of the old handcrafted algs are nasty, but this one is still pretty nice. I love RUD algs, especially when there aren't any D' moves.


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## TheTurtleman9 (Aug 3, 2010)

R U R' U R' U' R' U R U' R' U' R2 U R U2

Someone beat me to it, lol.


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## MichaelP. (Aug 4, 2010)

M' U (M2 U M2 U) M' U2 M2 U'

Sub 1.5 .


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## Radu (Aug 5, 2010)

Matt S said:


> I still kick this one Old School. Dan Knights style: x' R U' R' U D R' (U' D) R' U R D2 x
> 
> Lots of the old handcrafted algs are nasty, but this one is still pretty nice. I love RUD algs, especially when there aren't any D' moves.



I'm using the same one. It's pretty nice, even if it looks scary. My hands got used to it.


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## Tim Major (Aug 7, 2010)

MichaelP. said:


> M' U (M2 U M2 U) M' U2 M2 U'
> 
> Sub 1.5 .



M'2 U' M'2 U' M' U'2 M'2 U'2 M' U'2 <- I've gotten 1.04 and can usually get like 1.15-1.40.

So the standard alg's better


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## nck (Aug 7, 2010)

M' U' (M2' U' M'2 U') M' U2 M2 U
yeh..


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