# new blindfolds



## Stefan (Dec 30, 2007)

I've been thinking about new ways to blindfold in order to prevent cheating better:
http://stefan-pochmann.info/spocc/blindsolving/blindfolds/


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## Pedro (Dec 30, 2007)

well, I like the towels better...

you said they could be "prepared" or so, but this could be solved by having the main judge "inspecting" the competitors towels before the competition...or no?


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## AvGalen (Dec 30, 2007)

I agree we need better blindfolds, but I have problems with all your ideas:

Chin-on-table: Not practical, especially not for multi-blind
Chin-on-platform: Very uncomfortable position for the arms
Sheets-off-paper: If I can look at the cube during inspection by tilting my head I can also look at the cube during the solve.
Towel: This will be difficult for people with astma, hygiene is indeed an issue and there is no guarantee that the towels will be thick enough.

And a general issue I have is that most of these solutions make the competitor look bad or unrecognizable which is bad for spectators/media.

The big problem is that I agree with you that a solution that goes from neck/throat to above the eyes would work best, but that would be bad for the above reasons.

A swimming glass like this one that has been made completely dark might be the best compromise


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## CraigBouchard (Dec 30, 2007)

The thing is with all of those methods, I often tilt my head down while solving, and almost look at the floor. I always solve with my eyes closed underneath my blindfold, but I dunno, these don't seem practical...The chin on table, as Arnaud said, not practical. Uncomfortable, and annoying. The paper idea, well, thats annoying as well as unsafe...Who says someone might not tilt a bit to see it. And the towel, well...how much time will I waste throwing it over my head while sitting close to a timer?


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## Rama (Dec 31, 2007)

AvGalen said:


> A swimming glass like this one that has been made completely dark might be the best compromise



Erik has the prototype. 

Anyway, I think the diving glasses will work fine, but some people prefer to breath with their nose, maybe make some holes to breath trough the nose?

At the UK Open Ron brought a pair of welding glasses, they also work fine and are comfortable, but it has tiny holes at the sides and I just read at the WCA forum that they are looking for a better version.


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## AvGalen (Dec 31, 2007)

Rama said:


> AvGalen said:
> 
> 
> > A swimming glass like this one that has been made completely dark might be the best compromise
> ...


Eriks prototype is flawed (and too tight). The swimming glass I linked to would give less opportunity for cheating. Holes for breathing through the nose are a good idea.


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## Stefan (Dec 31, 2007)

Pedro said:


> you said they could be "prepared" or so, but this could be solved by having the main judge "inspecting" the competitors towels before the competition...or no?


I read a bit about trick blindfolds a while ago. I don't know how they work and there seem to be different ones, but I do remember some of them were said to allow giving them to the audience for inspection. For a towel, there could be a tiny spot somewhere that allows looking through, which might easily be missed by the judge inspecting the towel. That spot might also be closed at first, and opened by tearing an inner layer apart in a certain way, after the inspection.



AvGalen said:


> Chin-on-platform: Very uncomfortable position for the arms


Why? Arms aren't affected at all the way I envision this.



AvGalen said:


> Sheets-off-paper: If I can look at the cube during inspection by tilting my head I can also look at the cube during the solve.


Not with the shield I've shown. I need to tilt the head down quite a lot to see the cube, and also need to hold the cube a little higher than I normally would. If I peek at the cube this way, it will be very noticable. Also, this is like I called it, a prototype. Just to tell the general idea. it could be a shield made up from two parts, one stays horizontaly around the neck, the other can be flipped upwards after memorization.



AvGalen said:


> most of these solutions make the competitor look bad or unrecognizable which is bad for spectators/media.


I don't care. Or rather, I don't care about this nearly as much as I care for good competition.



AvGalen said:


> A swimming glass like this one that has been made completely dark might be the best compromise


I think someone who wants to cheat, can cheat with those. It's very hard to ensure that they are absolutely close to the skin. Also, they hide the eyes, allowing the person wearing them to fully open his eyes and abuse even tinier gaps. But I started this paragraph with "I think" because I haven't tested this exact type. I'll try testing some if I can find some without having to buy them.


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## joey (Dec 31, 2007)

Rama said:


> At the UK Open Ron brought a pair of welding glasses, they also work fine and are comfortable, but it has tiny holes at the sides and I just read at the WCA forum that they are looking for a better version.



Oh? I thought they were his sunglasses!

Modeled by Rama:
http://flickr.com/photos/flowmo/1968042521/in/set-72157603086472448/

Modeled by Matyas:
http://flickr.com/photos/flowmo/1968221343/in/set-72157603086472448/


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## Dene (Dec 31, 2007)

What about one of those one-sided mirror things? Solve with the cube behind it, so you can't see, while everyone can still see your face?


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## Lucas Garron (Dec 31, 2007)

I'm for the _Wetten, Dass?_ style: smimming goggles of some type. I'd prefer them to be a bit loose but have extended fabric/material blocking the view a bit farther out.

Also (not so sure this would work well), we could shield the cube from the solver (in addition to a blindfold).

For now, I think the occasional paper test works well. They need to start doing it at Berkeley and Caltech...


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## AvGalen (Dec 31, 2007)

StefanPochmann said:


> Pedro said:
> 
> 
> > you said they could be "prepared" or so, but this could be solved by having the main judge "inspecting" the competitors towels before the competition...or no?
> ...


I think you are taking this to far Stefan. People that use "prepared towels" with hidden layers that can be torn apart :confused: It would be much easier to have a friend scramble your cube into a prepared scramble



StefanPochmann said:


> AvGalen said:
> 
> 
> > Chin-on-platform: Very uncomfortable position for the arms
> ...


If the table is 70 cm high and the platform is at 90 cm that means my arms have to remain between the platform and the table (or maybe under the table is also allowed?) At this moment I can solve the cube behind my back or above my head if I want to and I definitely have more than 20 cm to put my arms. I also don't think this construction would be very practical to bring to a competition.



StefanPochmann said:


> AvGalen said:
> 
> 
> > Sheets-off-paper: If I can look at the cube during inspection by tilting my head I can also look at the cube during the solve.
> ...


I have just tried this and it works better than expected, but a lot of this depends on the interpretation of the judge. If I have a nose-itch I better not scratch it while holding the cube in that hand.



StefanPochmann said:


> AvGalen said:
> 
> 
> > most of these solutions make the competitor look bad or unrecognizable which is bad for spectators/media.
> ...


I also like good competition, but many people already consider us "freaks". If we sit there with towels covering our face we just prove them right. I (and I guess sponsors too) would rather have a photo with a Mátyás head, a blindfold and 15 solved cubes than 15 solved cubes and a towel.



StefanPochmann said:


> AvGalen said:
> 
> 
> > A swimming glass like this one that has been made completely dark might be the best compromise
> ...


I have tried Eriks mini-goggles and they are already pretty hard to cheat with (but still possible). The big goggle I linked to seems _almost_ impossible to cheat with because it goes around the nose and is made to close against the skin so no water can get in. Tiny gaps should be found by the judge. Gaps can be easily found by putting the goggle on. If light shines through it will be obvious.

I would also like to remind you that some people are slow and have to wear this "blindfold" for almost an hour during multi-blind or 5x5x5_blind.


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## Stefan (Dec 31, 2007)

AvGalen said:


> have a friend scramble your cube into a prepared scramble


Good point. Maybe we should have an independent scrambled cube checker.



AvGalen said:


> If the table is 70 cm high and the platform is at 90 cm that means my arms have to remain between the platform and the table


I envision the platform more like 150cm (possibly adjustable to different body sizes) so that you can stand comfortably.



AvGalen said:


> If I have a nose-itch I better not scratch it while holding the cube in that hand.


Better yet, just don't have a nose-itch.



AvGalen said:


> many people already consider us "freaks". If we sit there with towels covering our face we just prove them right. I (and I guess sponsors too) would rather have a photo with a Mátyás head, a blindfold and 15 solved cubes than 15 solved cubes and a towel.


Again, I don't care, but I guess I have to acknowledge that others do.



AvGalen said:


> Gaps can be easily found by putting the goggle on. If light shines through it will be obvious.


Um, you're talking about a broken goggle, right? I'm talking about gaps between goggle and skin.



AvGalen said:


> I would also like to remind you that some people are slow and have to wear this "blindfold" for almost an hour during multi-blind or 5x5x5_blind.


We don't have to use the same blindfolds for all events! And we could have lower limits for different blindfolds. Let's say you want to use the old standard blindfolds for single 3x3, then you can't get a time better than 5 minutes. If you cheat to get 6 minutes for a 3x3, I don't care.


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## pjk (Dec 31, 2007)

Stefan, good ideas. However, I think your idea while back about the blacked out goggles are best. They will fit firmly, they are relatively cheap, they are comfortable, and you can't cheat while wearing them.


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## CorwinShiu (Dec 31, 2007)

I would rather have a judge hold a piece of paper in front the whole time. But that would be painful for the 5x5 bld and muti... Hmm. 

Well, I think the blindfolds are fine. I doubt anyone would risk their integrity to win a DIY or some other prize.

Edit: I remember watching a documentary on youtube in japanese about a japanese blindfold cuber (not macky). They hooked up this brain things that measure what areas of the brain are being worked, and handed him this thing that covered the cube, but not his eyes. It's kind of like doing at BLD inside of those big hoodie pockets that go across your stomach, but it's not attached to your clothes. Anyone have that video?


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## Stefan (Dec 31, 2007)

Where have you been the last few days? There are people risking (actually in this case throwing away) their integrity for *no* prize.


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## AvGalen (Dec 31, 2007)

Just one more short reply before I go to sleep:

The logistics for all of this seem a bit excessive. Platforms, several different blindfolds, independent scramble checkers (can't they scratch me when I have a nose itch?)

And you want to force people to stand and not have nose-itches (I know you were kidding about that. You were kidding about that right?)

And saying slow people can cheat doesn't sound like you. What if someone cheats to get a 5:01 after everyone else has DNF-ed? Not a realistic scenario I hear people think, but that could have happened at WC2007 5x5x5_blind.

I think the black goggles are a much more realistic approach. Now we just have to test them, make sure there are no gaps in them (both broken or not entirely darkened like I thought you meant) and between them and the skin (like I now realize you meant)


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## Dene (Dec 31, 2007)

Yea so how about this. You have the competitor sitting in a small well-lit booth (like a phone booth). On the front side, have a large pane of one-way glass. You have 2 holes, for the arms to get through, that have some kind of material where you can stick your arms through, and it will kind of suck itself around your elbows, or however far you stick your arms through, so no light gets through. Thus, the competitor will be in this booth, and will only be looking into a mirror, while those watching will see the person inspecting the cube, then put their arms through the holes, and solve. This may perhaps be a bit impractical if you have an itchy nose, but the goggles would be worse  .


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## Dyste (Dec 31, 2007)

You could cut out pieces of black construction paper and fix them into the lense slots of pinhole glasses, by either taping or gluing them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinhole_glasses


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## hait2 (Dec 31, 2007)

so ok, there's 2 options
covering up the eyes (which is filled with a billion problems already mentioned, ranging from, but not exclusive to, hygiene, media recognition, personal comfort and so on)

the other option is obviously covering up the cube
what's the problem with this one? aside from multiblind i can't think of one. and multiblind problem can also be solved by thinking a bit more carefully as to how to cover up the cube(s)

i mean seriously, something as simple as throwing a blanket over your hands as you solve and there's no way anyone can cheat since nobody can see the cube

now if the solver is the only person who should not be able to see the cube, then clearly, he should also not be able to see the audience -- meaning a barrier between the person and the cube (and therefore audience) is necessary, which is complicated

ok so how can we do blankets for multiblind? the real problem is something like when you put down a cube and move your hands over to another one, the blanket changes the orientation or otherwise flips the cube, making it unsolvable through no fault of the participant

so have something that holds up the blanket rather than your own hands, and there goes that problem. now what's the issue here? ok so nobody can see the cubes. how important is this? if it's important enough, clearly the 2 solutions (covering up eyes or putting up a complete barrier between solve and cube&audience) are both fraught with complications

sooooo once again, how necessary is it for the audience to see the cube?

/ramble off


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## AvGalen (Dec 31, 2007)

how necessary is it for the audience to see the cube? Well, maybe we should just have soccer-matches without audiences and tell the results to the audience after the match is over. The first thing everyone always asks after a record is broken is "where is the video".

And solving with a blanket covering your hands and the cube means you will get worse times than now.

Option 2 has the big disadvantage that to prevent a direct line of sight between the eyes and cube, an unnatural body-position has to be used or a very big installation (compared to a simple blindfold/goggle) is needed or performance is hindered or spectators cannot see anything.

Option 1 has the big disadvantage that a perfect way of blocking sight near the eyes is nearly impossible.


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## Dyste (Dec 31, 2007)

I really think the pinhole glasses with extra covering would work well, as it's also said on wikipedia to prevent peripheral vision, not that that would be helpful, since it's kind of apparently suspicious if you're looking to the side for some odd reason. I suppose people would be worried about those looking downward, though. There's also a matter of procurement, since they're supposed to be in place of conventional eyeglasses.


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## masterofthebass (Dec 31, 2007)

I agree with the blackened out goggle scenario. the pinhole glasses idea is basically the same. Blackened out goggles solve every problem that we have, but I can't seem to think that wearing swimming goggles for long periods of time is a good thing. I know that you're not even supposed to wear swimming goggles when you're not swimming. If there was an option somewhat like those welding goggles that was more feasible, I would vote for that.


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## Erik (Dec 31, 2007)

I don't see why swimming goggles could give ANY problem. There is no way to peek underneath them and if the goggles are provided by WCA or such it's also sure that they are 100% non-see-through. They are very comfortable (it can even be loosened at will) so also good for multi or bigger cubes. 
Actualy, I already competed with them. I first gave them to the main judges and it never was denied (people in the main judge including Ron and Ton). 
Personally I even close my eyes under them so I can concentrate better but that's not what all people do I guess, at home I don't even wear any blindfold when I'm BLD-ing, just close my eyes and DON'T peek of course


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## Stefan (Dec 31, 2007)

Erik said:


> close my eyes and DON'T peak of course


This way you'll never get a peak performance... better just don't peek.



hait2 said:


> i mean seriously, something as simple as throwing a blanket over your hands as you solve and there's no way anyone can cheat since nobody can see the cube


Quite the contrary. Covering the cube actually offers new ways to cheat! Who's going to stop me from peeling the stickers off then? Seriously. Hiding the cube makes things worse.



AvGalen said:


> And saying slow people can cheat doesn't sound like you. What if someone cheats to get a 5:01 after everyone else has DNF-ed? Not a realistic scenario I hear people think, but that could have happened at WC2007 5x5x5_blind.


You're right, doesn't sound like me. I'm mostly worried about people breaking world records with cheating, and for some reason mostly thought of 3x3 when I said that. But you're right, the more complicated events are a different story.

However, I repeat that we could have different blindfolds for different events. Obviously single 3x3 bld is the most important blindfold event, and it's relatively fast. So at least for this we could use the safest blindfolds available.


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## hait2 (Dec 31, 2007)

StefanPochmann said:


> hait2 said:
> 
> 
> > i mean seriously, something as simple as throwing a blanket over your hands as you solve and there's no way anyone can cheat since nobody can see the cube
> ...



lmao you can't be serious
peeling off the stickers? did you actually think about it when you posted or was it the first thing that came to mind and you just posted thinking that there's probably something else that's actually plausible?


edit: anyway i guess i see why the audience needs to see the cube. as avg said, it's pretty much impossible to satisfactorily close someone's eyes, so the barrier remains a solution.

now, there's the problem of signals from the crowd, so the solver shouldn't be able to see the crowd. thinking about this some more, i don't think that's a valid argument. firstly, i doubt it would go unnoticed by other crowd members as someone is waving hands or blinking oddly or lifting up certain fingers or what have you. secondly, it would probably be slower anyway so who cares?

edit#2: thinking about the signals from crowd.. well that would involve the audience member(s) knowing BLD and knowing the scramble. so ok, let's assume that somehow happened. if that happened, it doesn't actually matter what we do, as there's so many ways to cheat now, that it's impossible to prevent it. i mean, even i have a tiny in-ear bluetooth headphone which, with long hair covering the ear, is impossible to see. even without hair, you'd need to look INTO the ear to even notice it. hmm that gives me an idea..

so, maybe i'm missing something, but how important is it for the solver to not see the crowd (since the only problem i can think of is the signals from said crowd which are either uselessly slow, or impossible to prevent in the first place)?


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## Stefan (Dec 31, 2007)

hait2 said:


> StefanPochmann said:
> 
> 
> > hait2 said:
> ...



No, I was very serious. You can think of blindcubing as three skills:

1) Memorize a scrambled cube.
2) Solve (by twisting) a cube at all.
3) Solve (by twisting) a cube blindfolded.

If the cube is hidden, the only skill you need is to memorize the scrambled cube. You don't need to know how to solve (by twisting) a cube blindfolded, you don't even need to know how to solve (by twisting) a cube at all. Simply because you could do it by peeling the stickers off.


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## Dene (Dec 31, 2007)

That is a very good point. With easy to remove and restick stickers, that could easily be done.


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## CraigBouchard (Dec 31, 2007)

The thing with a paper test is that you can get around it if you are cheating, and if you aren't, then you may be accused if you get stuck at a bad part of the solve when someone puts the paper over. Is the cheating issue really that prominent? Are there people that are known to do it now for us to need to change how things are done now?


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## CraigBouchard (Dec 31, 2007)

Ok, so removing stickers wouldn't be obvious at ALL...the hand movements would be very similar to that of actually cubing (Note the sarcasm) I'm not sure if anyone has seen my Blindfold, but I got it from a sex shop, instead of from a sleep place, and it works very well. It is leather, with velvet on the inner side. To peek, you actually have to try very hard...I've tried a couple of times (not in competition) Just to see if I even could, and its virtually impossible. Sometimes I pull it down, and wonder if its on right, so I open my eyes under it (I close my eyes while solving...) And there is virtually no light. A bit by the nose, but that is it...The slit is so tiny that you have to find the perfect angle to see the cube, and even then its a bit out of focus.

Also, when I am solving, I sometimes turn my head, look in different places, even though my eyes are closed. It is just me thinking. As I asked before, is this a big issue that people are indeed cheating? And you said you wanted to prevent world records caused by cheating, so I am going to pick on Matyas for a second, since he has the current record. If you watch his videos, almost every solve, no matter how fast or slow it is, he takes 10-15 seconds memo, usually 13. Now, I don't doubt he memorizes that fast, but someone could argue that he uses that as a buffer before putting on his BLD and solving while *cheating.* Some of the things Stefan has said sound pretty ridiculous, and I realize this sounds ridiculous too, but I'm saying that you can argue any case if you really want to.

/rant done


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## Stefan (Dec 31, 2007)

CraigBouchard said:


> Is the cheating issue really that prominent? Are there people that are known to do it now for us to need to change how things are done now?



http://www.speedsolving.com/showpost.php?p=25276&postcount=29

The video has been removed in the meantime, but what it showed was someone at a cube club meeting speedblindsolving five cubes in 4-5 minutes after 3 minutes memorization. That's total, not per cube. Allegedly he had his eyes closed, but from analyzing the video it's clear that he cheated.


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## Stefan (Dec 31, 2007)

CraigBouchard said:


> I am going to pick on Matyas for a second, since he has the current record. If you watch his videos, almost every solve, no matter how fast or slow it is, he takes 10-15 seconds memo, usually 13. Now, I don't doubt he memorizes that fast, but someone could argue that he uses that as a buffer before putting on his BLD and solving while *cheating.*


Absolutely correct. And safer blindfolds could help prevent such suspicions. I want safer blindfolds also for myself, and I think Matyas would like them, too. I just realized I have only thought about this in previous discussions, but didn't mention it this time yet: There's actually two reasons I want better blindfolds.

1) To prevent peeking.
2) To be able to confidently say that nobody is peeking.


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## blade740 (Jan 1, 2008)

Well, they make swim goggles similar to those welding goggles (i.e., don't cover the nose). I'd even be willing to bet they sell them at dollar stores. With that, a spray of black paint on the inside AND out, and a quick test to make sure no light gets through, I think you'd have a VERY effective blindfold, at a decent price. 

And yes, I agree that the biggest reason for better blindfold isn't to stop cheaters. It's to make sure that no matter what, our rankings are legitimate. I'm sure the top blindfold cubers would agree that it makes so much more sense to level the playing field, instead of allowing any sort of cheating. A blindfold as suggested wouldn't hamper cubers' times, as things like a table might (I know I, for one, would be thrown off by an awkward stance). 

Not to mention the fact that when non-cubers (and blindfold disbelievers) claim that we're peeking, we can show them that our blindfolds are strictly regulated and that all outrageous times are completely fair.


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## AvGalen (Jan 1, 2008)

I have seen someone cheating during the European Open 2006 (I don't remember his name, I think he was German and he was very nicely dressed. Grada Ooms saw it too and we nicknamed him Mozart)

However, even after cheating repeatedly during that solve he DNF'ed so we didn't intervene.


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## Stefan (Jan 1, 2008)

AvGalen said:


> I have seen someone cheating during the European Open 2006 (I don't remember his name, I think he was German and he was very nicely dressed. Grada Ooms saw it too and we nicknamed him Mozart)



*You take that back right now!* None of us Germans are ever very nicely dressed!

But seriously... looking at the competition page there were only three Germans in BLD, one is me and I know the other two personally and trust them completely. I think I know who you mean, a guy who was indeed very nicely dressed and who also speaks German, but he's a very nice guy and I also trust him.

How do you know he cheated?


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## CraigBouchard (Jan 1, 2008)

> The video has been removed in the meantime, but what it showed was someone at a cube club meeting speedblindsolving five cubes in 4-5 minutes after 3 minutes memorization. That's total, not per cube. Allegedly he had his eyes closed, but from analyzing the video it's clear that he cheated.



So, at an unofficial cube meeting that was unimportant? If he were to try to do it officially, that would change everything, but at an unofficial event, he is only disgracing himself...


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## AvGalen (Jan 1, 2008)

I know he cheated because I saw him stop several times, rub his eyes, look from under the blindfold at the cube and then continue. The first time I saw this I didn't know for sure, but he repeated it several times. It was not one of those might/might not situations. Grada Ooms also saw it and she was very mad about it. The next time I visited her she showed me a couple of prototype blindfolds she made that had seams around the nose to fit better (that is how Grada gets about "injustice")

Just to make sure we are talking about the same person, he was using a black bag for practice that covered his whole head.


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## Stefan (Jan 1, 2008)

AvGalen said:


> The next time I visited her she showed me a couple of prototype blindfolds she made that had seams around the nose to fit better (that is how Grada gets about "injustice")


When I was first shown those, they were praised as being much better. But I could peek under them just as well as with the normal blindfolds.


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## AvGalen (Jan 1, 2008)

StefanPochmann said:


> AvGalen said:
> 
> 
> > The next time I visited her she showed me a couple of prototype blindfolds she made that had seams around the nose to fit better (that is how Grada gets about "injustice")
> ...


Yes, that is the problem if you use a seam. The seam was specifically tailored (pun intended) to Alexander Ooms head/eyes/nose. For him they really worked, but not for others.

(were we indeed talking about the same person)


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## Stefan (Jan 1, 2008)

CraigBouchard said:


> So, at an unofficial cube meeting that was unimportant?



Unofficial meeting is a first step from private practice to official competition. They're already cheating right in front of other cubers. Who knows where he'll stop?

Also, his case is very obvious. There might already be cheaters in competition but just not cheating this obviously. And again, I'd like to emphasize I also want this to be more confident about the people I do trust, and for myself.


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## frsechet (Jan 1, 2008)

Hi everyone, and Arnaud,
I'm not reading this board too often, but Stefan emailed me to tell me something was going on here... He believes I am the one in question here.
There is nothing I can tell that is going to make you change your mind about me because you are already 120% certain of what you say and it's kinda old so you pretty much discarded every doubt you possibly had by then to replace it by an absolute certainty, but I did NOT cheat during Euro 06 (nor during any other competition anyway).
I remember talking to Ron about it, and probably he remembers it too, but I wasn't happy with the blindfolds at all. I have a pretty large face and a quite big nose, the blindfold used were often way too tight for me, which made the blindfold not only "reach into" my eyes (which were closed anyway, you can figure that having something getting into your open eyes for 40 mins is not very comfortable), but also made it open under my eyes. I wanted to use my regular blindfold, the one I use in my daily practice, this is basically a large black scarf I fold in double so not too much light comes in, that is wide enough to cover my whole face, but Ron didn't want me to use that one because he told me even if the blindfold used weren't perfect, they were recognized as official blindfolds by the WCA and he didn't want to waste time to check if every blindfold was conform. So I eventually went on with the regular blindfold.
The only thing I can say is, I close my eyes during the solving part, or sometimes I just look up to the ceiling. That is just pure reflex, I don't even think about it. The scratching the eyes part was, you know, you get tired, you get out of focus, so you scratch your eyes, I don't know, figure it out by yourself. And about the "looking under the blindfold", I don't know too, I just use to move my head around from time to time, because staying there without moving for a long time can get tiring. I don't have much more to say than that.
But please, no more "I know that he cheated because". You don't know. You think. You believe. But you don't know. That is not fair, that is not even giving me a chance of defending myself. Ron came to me after that event and we had a discussion about this, and he believed me.
And you know what? I've always thought (well not any more, but by the time) that Kuti was cheating during the final of the regular BLD event. But that is probably more because I failed and he won. Jealousy, I think... ;-)
We need to trust each other some more, I have my conscience for myself, you have yours for yourself, and so does everyone. What if I came and said, "hmmm my friend and I saw you cheating back then two years ago, and now you have no chance in proving the contrary we are going to spread the word that you're a cheater".
SO: I agree, the blindfolds are bad. Come up with something that fully covers the head but at the same time, is comfortable, and is easy to tie/knot/put on all by yourself during a solve, then we'll see. I like the idea of having to solve with your hands behind a board, but then again, it's not very practical, because it would require some stretching with your hands so that's losing some more time so that's not really being an option.
Whatever, I don't really like being pointed out like that. Do you have any evidence? I mean, something other than bringing up an old history that was already ruled in time? You may think what you want, I probably won't make you change your mind because you already "KNOW" what you say. I want to keep polite so I won't say what I "KNOW" about you...
(I am very aware that this is an internet forum, and english is neither my nor your mother language, so it's probably not what you really mean. I have no doubt that you are a very nice person. But please watch your language, and double check before sending. Words hurt, as you can see. We're adults, we can also behave like adults.)
Have a nice evening, so was mine until now because I have a niece since a few hours. And happy New Year everyone, happy cubing and stuff... Even to you, my friend Arnaud! Don't want to make ennemies here.


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## tim (Jan 1, 2008)

frsechet said:


> We're adults, we can also behave like adults.



We are not. We just believe to behave like adults.

But back to topic:
All this discussion about cheating scares me. Until today i totally trusted everyone who competed in official competitions. I neither thought about cheating nor i assumed that anyone else cheats.
In my opinion inventing better blindfolds is like building better defensive weapons. So the enemy will start building better weapons to avoid the defensive weapons.
What about this idea: Every competitior may use a blindfold if he wants to, but no one forces him to do so. He also could just close her eyes. The entire blindfold competition would be based on trust and speedcubing would probably be the first sport, in which the competitiors enjoy complete confidence. That would be so awesome.


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## frsechet (Jan 1, 2008)

tim: I agree that confidence is the key. I mean, whether you can solve the cube blindfolded or not, it's your problem. I don't really care about winning a competition (which I did not, may I point that one out). I don't care about people thinking I cheated because I know for myself I didn't cheat. That's what's important. What I don't really like here is how Arnaud came and said "that guy is a cheater I know it I saw him look under the blindfold" etc. He doesn't know. He thinks he saw me look under the blindfold, but unless he has Superman's eyes, I would not see how he could actually see me look under the blindfold anyway. I think I've made my point here, so I'm not going to argue because it doesn't really matter to me. I mean, I'm not Gaëtan... :-D Actually, I don't know for sure what HE wants...
What I wanted to say, and I was about to PM you about it is, where in KA do you live? I lived there for a while, a few years ago... and I'm probably going again in 2 months or so, visiting a friend. Could set up a meeting?


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## Stefan (Jan 1, 2008)

I've met both Arnaud and Francois personally and you're both very nice guys. I hope this issue, based I think on misunderstandings, doesn't cause a conflict but that it has been cleared now.


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## Pedro (Jan 1, 2008)

frsechet said:


> (...)
> *I think I've made my point here, so I'm not going to argue because it doesn't really matter to me. I mean, I'm not Gaëtan... :-D Actually, I don't know for sure what HE wants...*
> (...)



and does anybody know?  maybe even him doesn't know...

I don't understand why he never went to a competition to show his amazing skills, solving the cube bld with 2 seconds inspection...and probably with his normal method...


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## AvGalen (Jan 1, 2008)

You are right François, I don't know for sure and I never will. Ron did the right thing by confronting you after the solve and discussing his suspicion with you. At that time I didn't feel it was my place (I felt completely overwhelmed by all those incredible top-cubers) to confront you or contact a judge. I also didn't feel the need for it because you DNF'ed anyway.
I didn't personaly attack you, I didn't mention your name and I even said that I was confident that you could actually solve the cube blindfolded. I just wanted to tell people that cheating is not something that Stefan is worried about, but that it is an actual problem that should be prevented. If you know me, you realize that is a pretty big statement coming from me.
You have changed my mind about you actually cheating, but you have also proven Stefans point that cheating is actually possible. And I would recommend that you pay a lot more attention to your behaviour during your next competition. If both Ron, Grada and me think you are cheating, that means you should be much more carefull when you scratch your nose next time.

There is just one more thing that is bothering me and I hope you can clear the air by explaining what you meant by this: "I want to keep polite so I won't say what I "KNOW" about you...". You make it sound like I have a big secret that you know about, almost like you are blackmailing me.


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## Stefan (Jan 1, 2008)

AvGalen said:


> you have also proven Stefans point that cheating is actually possible.


What... that needed proof? And you mean where he said that he didn't like the gaps caused by the nose with the standard blindfolds, right? I think anyone who has tried them knows about that. Or maybe I'm just also one with a big nose?


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## frsechet (Jan 1, 2008)

AvGalen said:


> There is just one more thing that is bothering me and I hope you can clear the air by explaining what you meant by this: "I want to keep polite so I won't say what I "KNOW" about you...". You make it sound like I have a big secret that you know about, almost like you are blackmailing me.


Hmmm... that was me trying to rephrase something but not getting past the language barrier. I was trying to get to something close to "I KNOW that you're a complete asshole" but without saying it, because this is not what I think and I don't want to say something like that to someone I've probably seen 2 minutes in my life (although... it happens sometimes... but then that person has probably very efficiently used these 2 mins to upset me as hell).
You can probably see where I wanted to get: more like, you're insulting me as much as if I told you that you're an ***. So the :"words hurt" after that.  I know no big secret about you, not blackmailing you... sorry for not being very clear. Not being a very quiet day (nor was it a quiet night...) for me!
I'm very glad we cleared that up. Although, I'm not very sure I will stop rubbing my eyes and scratching my nose in the future. There is no reason why I should. I already changed my style, keeping my hands a bit further from my body so that looking underneath the blindfold becomes more obvious, and that was right after talking to Ron that day ;-).
As far as I'm concerned, it's all forgotten...


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## AvGalen (Jan 1, 2008)

I guess I will never understand what you wanted to say.

And just so you don't misunderstand me, I never said you should stop rubbing your eyes or scratching your nose. I just said it would be wise to be more carefull about it so the judge won't suspect you of cheating.


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## Lucas Garron (Jan 1, 2008)

Has anyone considered that no matter how good our blindfolds are, it's possible to get a scramble by photographing or filming an early attempt (and it's not had to justify doing so, considering famous/fast people are more likely to go early) or by getting it from someone else's memo? I bet if I really wanted to, I could convince someone else to go early (to the orgainzers: "(s)he has to use the same cube I'll use, so (s)he needs to go early") and tell me the scramble; as long as no one sees my alt-tab during memo, I'd get away with it. The only thing is, I don't really wanna try that, especially since I have a good chance of getting a good time anyhow...

So, as long as we allow the audience to view solves and don't keep upcoming competitors penned up in a spare area, blindfold manipulation is _not_ the easiest/most effective method to cheat. If we try too hard to block it, well, who knows how cheating will proceed...

(By the way, has anyone else noticed that a fictional person once won the Sunday Contest?)

I think that for now, we're fine with regular BLD's and paper/hand checks (at least, until the sport grows to such a level that we have sponsors providing official blindfolds for each competitior...). The only thing else to do would be ensuring good judges who can catch cheating (maybe an additional one who overviews the entire stage during the entire event?).

But don't let that stop you from finding a good, cheap, effective blindfold. 



EDIT: By the way, has anyone ever had a blindfold on uncomfortably during a competition solve? I sometimes pull mine down further to be safe (so I subconsciously prevent myself from cheating, in a way), but Im not sure how this looks to the judges and spectators...


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## Pedro (Jan 2, 2008)

Lucas Garron said:


> (By the way, has anyone else noticed that a fictional person once won the Sunday Contest?)



when? who?


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## AvGalen (Jan 2, 2008)

At the Polish Open 2007 there was such a "competitors area". It was really good because it sped up the competition and made the competitors more focussed.


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## slncuber21 (Jan 2, 2008)

Pedro said:


> well, I like the towels better...
> 
> you said they could be "prepared" or so, but this could be solved by having the main judge "inspecting" the competitors towels before the competition...or no?



i agree, shouldn't the judge(s) check the towels (if they allow them) first?

i do really like the towel idea, even tho i am *not and can never be* a BLD solver...


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## cmhardw (Jan 2, 2008)

slncuber21 said:


> ...even tho i am *not and can never be* a BLD solver...



I used to feel the same way about BLD around when I first started cubing. I think if you tried it you be surprised of two things. First is how much easier BLD cubing is than you might think it is, and secondly how much better your memory and mental visualization ability is than you might think it is.

Chris


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## David Pritts (Jan 2, 2008)

wow... I was about to post a thread here asking if people thought that cheating in BLD was an issue. I was curious because I recently started BLDs, and have "cheated" myself (in practice!) when I knew I screwed something up but didn't want to start over. Then, watching youtubes of official solves, I got a bit suspicious.

I guess I don't really have much to add here, but I will (for one) say that I very much object to the idea of running competitions on an "honor system." Having done many bad things before in my own life, I know that good people can do lousy things  

Plus, if we trust people so much, why do we need so many judges in the first place? And why bother distinguish between UWR and OWR? Why must WCA delegates be present at competitions?

David


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## Dyste (Jan 2, 2008)

Well a WCA delegate organizes the competition and may compete themselves...


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## CraigBouchard (Jan 2, 2008)

For some stupid reason, I think that might have been me that put the fictional person in the Sunday Contest...I don't remember :|


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## Mike Hughey (Jan 2, 2008)

cmhardw said:


> slncuber21 said:
> 
> 
> > ...even tho i am *not and can never be* a BLD solver...
> ...



I want to second that opinion. You should really try it sometime. There's actually less to learn to solve BLD than there is for a typical speedsolving method. You only need a handful of algorithms, and the rest is just practice and memorization. And the memorization really isn't that bad. I wouldn't say that everyone in the world has a good enough memory to do a 3x3x3 BLD, but I certainly think that more than half of the people in the world do. If you have even an average memory, and you can solve the cube sighted (which you can), I really believe you can do it.


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## Derrick Eide17 (Jan 4, 2008)

I think i might indeed have a solution to this BLD problem.
its not the most COMFORTABLE THING, but i REALLY DO think it is almost perfect.

okay so my idea:
We use normal BLD still, but, with noseplugs attached the bottom part. it is virtually IMPOSSIBLE to see anything. and the ONLY drawback i see is u cant breath out ur nose so a LITTLE uncomfortable. but barely at ALL.

I really think this is a good idea. 
what do u guys think?


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## hdskull (Jan 4, 2008)

A couple of things, I want to mention.

1. Fictional people, the Sunday Contest has been quite good, almost everyone that places in the top 10, we'd know. But for Ryan Heise's BLD competition, who is Chi Chu exactly, and where is he from? He has never been to competition before, it's not that I doubt people can BLD that fast, but it's hard not to be suspicious. Does anyone have a video of him ?

2. To respond to what Corwin said, the BLD cuber was Araki from Japan. Here's the specific video you were referring to, the black pocket part is @ 5:23:





3. I think something similar to the "black pocket" can be used. Basically what I suggest is a blindfold and a rectangular box with 3 sides cut out, 2 on the side for hands/arms, and one on the side opposite of the cuber for the audience to see, and the solve itself should be conducted inside the box. I think it will be pretty hard to cheat like this.

4. Usually I close my eyes when I solve, but I guess cheating does occur with people ?

5. Behind the back can be a solution too, but I find it a little harder to execute behind the back, so times now and times behind the back might be slightly different, thus making the records not fair.


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## joey (Jan 4, 2008)

hdskull said:


> 1. Fictional people, the Sunday Contest has been quite good, almost everyone that places in the top 10, we'd know. But for Ryan Heise's BLD competition, who is Chi Chu exactly, and where is he from? He has never been to competition before, it's not that I doubt people can BLD that fast, but it's hard not to be suspicious. Does anyone have a video of him ?



Chi Chu is chinese. I believe him to be real, he has posted to the UWR before aswell, and has several times. I have not seen videos of him.


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## Derrick Eide17 (Jan 4, 2008)

http://strangepuzzle.com/download.php?videoName=3x3x3-BLD ChiChu 147.00.wmv

there ya go 

now PLEASE comment on my idea. I think it is PERFECT


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## cmhardw (Jan 5, 2008)

hdskull said:


> 3. I think something similar to the "black pocket" can be used. Basically what I suggest is a blindfold and a rectangular box with 3 sides cut out, 2 on the side for hands/arms, and one on the side opposite of the cuber for the audience to see, and the solve itself should be conducted inside the box. I think it will be pretty hard to cheat like this.



I think this is a perfect idea! Require the competitor to still wear the blindfold if we want to be extra saf, and place the stackmat inside the box and it should work!

Chris


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## joey (Jan 5, 2008)

But that requires the cube to be at a certain height? Some might like to hold the cube quite high up? And like me, I like to move about while cubing, this would make me not able to!


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## Derrick Eide17 (Jan 5, 2008)

So i guess i should just accept the fact that everyone is just going to TOTALLY ignore my idea? alright cool....


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## hdskull (Jan 5, 2008)

joey said:


> But that requires the cube to be at a certain height? Some might like to hold the cube quite high up? And like me, I like to move about while cubing, this would make me not able to!



You can still move about, I mean, if the idea is implemented, then the box would certainly a little bigger with space to move about. 


Derrick: thanks for the video, I want to see a really fast solve of him though, but it's still cool to see that he's real and that he's Chinese. And I don't get what you mean by nose plugs, lol.


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## Derrick Eide17 (Jan 5, 2008)

no problem skull  yeah i cant find any faster vids myself sorry lol  now can someone PLEASE comment on my idea?!!? or ill cry lol.


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## hdskull (Jan 5, 2008)

I did comment on it, show us a picture, of how it looks like.


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## cmhardw (Jan 5, 2008)

I still think hdskull's idea of the 3 sided box is the best idea proposed on this board so far, by far. It is easy to implement in competition and does not require a high cost, which is good for organizers. Joey brought up a good point, this would in effect require the competitor to sit for all BLD events. Multi BLD is still possible with this setup as well I might add.

I think being forced to sit (I prefer to stand) is worth it since the tradeoff is knowing that it's impossible to peek directly. I would gladly sit for all BLD events if it clears up this peeking issue.



Derrick Eide17 said:


> no problem skull  yeah i cant find any faster vids myself sorry lol  now can someone PLEASE comment on my idea?!!? or ill cry lol.



I don't see how the nose plugs would prevent anyone from tilting their head slightly to the side and still being able to peek out from under the furthest left or furthest right of their field of "peek vision". Yes I agree the plugs would probably block your center field of visible area below you, but still not the sides. Of course you could just require gigantic noseplugs that block all visible area, but I don't think that's feasible for competition if we want to be considered a serious sport/activity in any sense of the word serious.



Chris


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## joey (Jan 5, 2008)

cmhardw said:


> I think being forced to sit (I prefer to stand) is worth it since the tradeoff is knowing that it's impossible to peek directly. I would gladly sit for all BLD events if it clears up this peeking issue.



I don't like the idea of being forced to sit down, but if the WCA starts to use this idea, I guess I will have to learn how to do it sitting down. I know it sounds odd, but my swaying does help me.

Edit:
The worse thing about BLD at competition for me is nerves, my diabetes goes funny when I get nervous!(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypoglycemia) As you can see in my vid, I had to eat some glucose before I started!http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=LxSZMki7PoM) Although, thats not something the WCA can help with


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## Pedro (Jan 5, 2008)

I don't think the "black pocket" would work that well for multi bld...

imagine someone is doing 20 cubes...

we'd need a pretty big box to cover all those...and it would get hard for the competitor to place the arms around the big box...

imagine a 50 cm long box...I can see that becoming very unconfortable to have your arms open around it for...20 min


I was thinking about a thing...my blindfold is quite large...I mean, in height...

we could use big blindfolds, so they cover the nose and maybe beyond it...

that way it gets almost impossible to see the cube, unless you're holding it very close to your body...

my nose is kinda big, and my blindfold just allows me to see the cube if it's actually touching my body...


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## cmhardw (Jan 5, 2008)

Hi Pedro,

What I envision for mutli BLD is that only the cube being solved is covered by the black pocket. The other cubes are set to the left and right, or further in front of the competitor. I think it would be obvious if the competitor tried to cheat to look at the current cube being solved.

Also there is no greater chance of the competitor peeking at the other cubes this method than with the current method.

I think the black pocket should only completely cover the cube in the competitor's hands, and possible a bit more area to accomodate movement of the cube up and down if something is thinking or shifting position.

Chris


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## hdskull (Jan 5, 2008)

I agree with Chris on that, you can easily move the cube you're solving into it and since you can't really touch the other cubes while solving, there isn't much to peek at.


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## Pedro (Jan 5, 2008)

hmm...

yeah, may work then 

what about what I said about bigger blindfolds? I think it could work, and would be simpler


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## hdskull (Jan 6, 2008)

I think it would have to cover the bottom part of the face, since being able to look down is the problem. A bigger blindfold would be the same as the towel solution Stefan presented. The downside as someone mentioned would be that it would cover the face and would be no joy for the audience/media to watch.


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## Joël (Jan 6, 2008)

What a load of nonsense.

srsly, 74 messages! omg


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## Derrick Eide17 (Jan 6, 2008)

any drawbacks to my solution i would love to hear because i can't see ANY besides the TINIEST lack of comfort. and hdskul all it would be is a normal Blindfold but u have a noseplug on it that FORCES the bottom part to cover ur nose so u CANT SEE 100% sure. so ANY drawbacks? any at all??


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## hdskull (Jan 7, 2008)

Oh, on top of the blindfold, I don't know, I don't have a nose plug to try it out.


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## Derrick Eide17 (Jan 7, 2008)

THANK YOU hdskull since your the ONLY one on here who has the courtesy to at least pay attention and respond to my idea so thanks  so basically your right but the noseplus goes on ur nose so it would be near the bottom of the Blindfold itself. Also you dont really need a noseplug to try it out just put ur Blindfold on and then pinch the part near ur nose a little. with the Blindfold basically all you need is just a TINY bit of pressure putting the blindfold closer to the skin, so noseplug would be perfect and is best solution I think. so the new Blindfold problem..... is SOLVED.


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## masterofthebass (Jan 8, 2008)

I'd hate to really bring this up again... but I just found my good blindfold, after having it be lost for like 4 months. Like craig's, there's a little lip at the bottom of it, so that there's really no possible way to see out of the bottom. I got it at Rite-Aid for only a couple of bucks... I think that the WCA should look into approving these types of blindfolds.


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## qqwref (Jan 10, 2008)

This is going to sound silly, but a damp cloth will stick to things (as anyone who's been wet while wearing clothing can tell you)... so another idea might be to to get a dark cloth, make it damp with warm water, and then put it over the eyes so that it sticks to the skin around the eyes. A bandana or scarf would work fine for this.

A more serious idea - if we had some kind of one-way goggles, where the audience could see the person's eyes but the person couldn't see out, it might be a bit easier to tell if they are cheating. Of course Stefan's problem where you can see with your eyes apparently closed could still happen, but it would be easier to detect other cheaters.


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## pajodaep (Jan 10, 2008)

hmmm... has cheating ever happened in any bld event or has anyone ever been caught? is it possible that cheating actually exists? i don't think anyone can cheat unless he puts the cube directly under his chin. it's hard you know. although, i like your ideas but they look a little bit eeky especially the towel. the audience might find them funny and weird. i like the table most, i think it's comfortable enough. i think one solution is to specify a certain angle between the eyes and the cube so that peeking is not possible - either the BLDist will lower his head or raise the cube. Or maybe, the judge may constantly hold a sheet of paper under the chin (although it's quite tiring).


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## MiloD (Jan 10, 2008)

I have been tossing around a few ideas that would solve this problem effectively:

Solution A: First competitors are allowed to inspect the cube in a normal fashion. Then, upon command, the judge covers each of the competitors left and right eyes with his respective hands. Before the solve is completed the judge may ask the question: "guess who?" to which the competitor must reply: (First + last name of judge). Unfortunately, this solution requires additional memorization of the judge's name; memory methods may be applied. If BLD is after lunch, hands may smell like pizza. 

On second thought, this solution would not prevent cheating on cubers with x-ray vision.

Solution B: First competitors are allowed to inspect the cube in a normal fashion. When inspection is completed, the judge spray paints the Rubik's cube black with a lead based paint. 

Pros:Almost impossible to cheat.
Cons: Messy, inhaling paint vapors may affect memorization.

Solution C: All of the previous solutions relied on interrupting the photon path between the cube and the cubers eyes, so I decided to think out side of the cube.......First competitors are allowed to inspect the cube in a normal fashion. When inspection is completed, a plastic surgeon will surgically remove both of the competitors eyes. The solve is preformed eyeless until the stackmat is stopped. This method has the advantage of being virtually impossible to cheat, but there are always ways...


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## alexc (Jan 13, 2008)

Ok, here's another idea. (If its already been said, sorry, I haven't read all the posts.)

On the table, in front of the competitor is a wooden box, about 1x1x1 feet large. On the sides of the box are two holes, large enough to fit a 3x3 to 5x5 cube through along with competitor's hands. The front of the box has a window so the audience can still see the cube. The competitor still wheres a blindfold to be extra safe. The competitor inspects, puts his hands and the cube through the holes in the box, and solves the cube inside the box.

That's just an idea. I think the goggles are the most practical actually.


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## qqwref (Jan 14, 2008)

Okay, here are several more ideas I had:

1) The judge has another 3x3 with gray stickers only. When the competitor is done memorizing he trades cubes with the judge, and solves it. The judge should watch very carefully to see what the competitor is doing, and do the exact same turns on his (real) cube, but be careful to keep the cube he is using out of the competitor's field of vision. The solve is successful if the judge's cube is solved when the timer is stopped. Cheating should be impossible if the judge is competent (of course we assume the judges are trustworthy).

2) During the round, the competition organizers project something interesting onto the ceiling (such as a compilation of sub-10 3x3x3 solves). Each competitor who solves blindfolded will be required to stare at the ceiling throughout the solve. The judge makes sure that they do not look downwards in any way. Cheating is only possible if the competitor has excellent peripheral vision.

3) The competitor can use a normal blindfold, but after the solve the competitor must tell the judge (without looking at the cube) what cycles were necessary to solve the cube. If the judge cannot verify that these cycles will in fact solve the cube, or the competitor does not remember the cycles, the competitor is considered to have cheated and the solve is a DNF. Cheating would be difficult because the competitor would still have to remember the blindfold cycles when the solve is finished, so that someone who is incapable of a normal blindfold solve would not be able to get a decent time by cheating.

4) Before the round, the competitors should prepare a few clean black plastic bags (such as garbage bags), preferably with a few small holes in them. Instead of a blindfold, competitors place these bags over their heads, and loosely tie them at the neck to make sure they cannot see out. If a competitor becomes unconscious during a solve that solve is considered to be a DNF. Here cheating is only possible if the holes are too big (assuming there are holes at all).

5) Instead of physical cubes, competitors solve virtual reality cubes. Once a competitor has donned the virtual reality helmet and gloves, they may begin the solve by starting to look at the cube. As soon as they indicate they are ready to start the solve, the cube's stickers all turn grey in the virtual reality simulation (like on the Ryan Heise blindfold applet), and they must then solve it and stop the timer without knowing what any of the stickers are. I don't think there is any way to cheat with this method.

6) Regulations require all competitors to bring a clone of themselves to the competition, but the clone may not know how to solve the cube. When the competitor has finished memorizing, the competitor hands the cube to the clone, and they stand back to back. The competitor then tells the clone what turns to make to solve the cube, and the solve is completed if the clone's cube is solved when the timer is stopped. Ideally the clone should be blindfolded, and also not allowed to talk. Cheating is only possible if the clone can in fact solve a cube, but this should be easy to detect.

7) Before the blindfolded round, all competitors are made to sign a legally binding contract which states that they agree to be punished if they cheat. Normal blindfolds are used during the round. Afterwards, any competitor who is found to have cheated will be taken to the Rubik's Cube factory to be made into new DIYs.

8) I call this one the "youtube approach". Competitors can solve with whatever blindfold or method of concealing the cube that they want. However, if anyone in the audience thinks they see a way that that competitor could have cheated, and yells "fake", the solve is considered to be fake and is counted as a DNF.

9) Only blind competitors may compete in a blindfold event. Before the round both a blindman's cube (with raised shapes to signify color) and a normal cube are scrambled in the same way. Once a competitor has memorized the cube, they switch with the normal cube, and solve it. Cheating will only be possible if competitors pretend to be blind.

10) Each competitor does their blindfold solve in a small room with a video-camera (with infrared vision) and a separately operable light. When they are finished memorizing the cube, a judge turns the light in their room off, and they must complete the solve in the dark. The light turns on again when they stop the timer. Cheating may be possible if competitors have some other way of creating light in the room, but ideally they should be carefully searched beforehand.



I'm just kidding of course, wanted to have a bit of fun with it  I think that we should not worry so much about cheating, as I think Stefan has showed that anyone who is found to have cheated during a competition will lose all respect in the community and probably end up banned from future competitions. Anyone who is actually interested in cubing would make sure to avoid cheating since they don't want to lose all respect.


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## Swordsman Kirby (Jan 14, 2008)

Here are some great blindfold ideas I've seen in the Beijing and Guangdong competitions:

1. Jiang Ganyuan wore a garbage bag on his head. 
2. Some other guy wore swimming goggles with black duct-tape.

I'm pretty sure they weren't cheating, though.


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## Marcell (Jan 14, 2008)

Actually using grey cubes is not such a bad idea.
The judge gives the normal cube to the competitor for the memorization, and when the competitor is ready, the jusge gives him the grey cube for the solve(while hiding the other one). It could be like Ryan's online cube for BLD.
Now how do we verify the solve? Maybe we could prepare cubes with grey stickers and different symbols written on them with those special UV-pens, scramble them the same way, and after the solve the judge could check the cube with a mini UV-lamp. 
Of course this has the disadvantage that the scarmblers would have to scramble twice as much cubes, but I can't think of any way how someone could cheat.


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## Derrick Eide17 (Jan 14, 2008)

sorry but all these ideas are very unconventional and take a lot of effort just to make sure no one is cheating. i believe my idea is the best and no one is even considering taking a look at it which is fine. but i read everyone elses ideas on here and some are good but of course everyone else on here has pointed out their flaws lol. although i think my idea of the Blindfold with a noseplug on the bottom is the BEST solution, and you simply CANT see under it so no cheating. so its perfect.


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## Pedro (Jan 14, 2008)

so we give the competitors a cube they don't know/never touched to solve?

and we'll see a lot of pops, because they don't know the force the cube can "support"


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## Mike Hughey (Jan 14, 2008)

Well, you could have a grey cube with some sort of invisible flourescent identifications that could only be seen under a black light (letters, maybe). And then you could sell stickers like that so that any blindfold competitor would be required to bring 2 cubes - one normal cube and one with the special blindfold stickers.

Then the solved cube could be verified under a black light when finished.

Or maybe there are other similar technologies that would work just as well.

This is a little costlier, but not all that much - if there were a common inexpensive source for the stickers, you'd think it could work. And if such stickers were provided at competitions for competitors that don't have them, anyone who doesn't have them (but has at least 2 cubes) could quickly resticker their cube before the competition.

One thing that worries me with this idea is that you would have occasional instances where the scrambler doesn't get both the scrambles the same. Verifying a scramble on the grey cube could be rather difficult. So there would likely be a fair number of DNFs due to bad scrambles.

Derrick, I'm sorry I never responded to your idea, but I must admit that I think I would find the nose plugs very uncomfortable and distracting, so I'd rather have a less uncomfortable solution. However, that being said, if such a blindfold were ever required, I certainly would be willing to use one.


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## Derrick Eide17 (Jan 15, 2008)

yes thanks Mike for the response. yes the only drawback i see is a small lack of confort for some people, but it doenst have to be, if the tightness of the noseplug, or it making breathing out of your nose to be hard, you dont really have to use a hardcore TIGHT noseplug or anything  and you can just wear it at the top of ur nose or whereever so you can still breath fine. But yes many people might find this a little uncomfortable and i understand. but hey, it prevents cheating


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## ExoCorsair (Jan 15, 2008)

Mike Hughey said:


> Well, you could have a grey cube with some sort of invisible flourescent identifications that could only be seen under a black light (letters, maybe). And then you could sell stickers like that so that any blindfold competitor would be required to bring 2 cubes - one normal cube and one with the special blindfold stickers.



The Rubik's Icon could work just as well, if the lighting in the room were not amazing.


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## LarsN (Jan 15, 2008)

I think Derricks idea has the most potential. And it is by far the most simple and realistic one.
If you think as far as fabricating blindfolds, you could have a normal blindfold with a flexibel metal rod that you gently press to fit around your nose. It could be performed while pulling the blindfold from your forehead to your eyes, which gives less delay between memo and execution. And it won't bother the audiens, which seems to be a big issue in this thread.


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## Derrick Eide17 (Jan 16, 2008)

yes Lars i was also thinking about the delay between memo and execution and yes what you mentioned was what i was thinking too. A noseplug, or something such as a flexible metal rod could be just put on the nose or fit right after which is pretty convenient.


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## Joël (Jan 17, 2008)

Derrick Eide17 said:


> yes thanks Mike for the response. yes the only drawback i see is a small lack of confort for some people, but it doenst have to be, if the tightness of the noseplug, or it making breathing out of your nose to be hard, you dont really have to use a hardcore TIGHT noseplug or anything  and you can just wear it at the top of ur nose or whereever so you can still breath fine. But yes many people might find this a little uncomfortable and i understand. but hey, it prevents cheating



How does this 'noseplug' look like? I don't think i've ever seen a blindfold like that, but it sounds kind off weird to me... 

For me, the things I consider are:

1) I don't think that a lot of people cheat in competitions. All the blindfold cubers I have met so far seem to be credible to me. I maybe 1 or 2 rumors of people cheating, but I really have *no reason at all* to believe that any of the sub2 guys ever cheated.

2) Whatever the solution might be, it's important that people who don't know bld cubing can see that the person is solving the cube blindfolded. If ignorant spectators see it, they should be able to recognise what is going on, instead of thinking: "wtf is that guy doing, with that towel wrapped around his head?!" or "wtf is that guy doing, with his head locked up in that cage and a grey cube in his hand?!". Blindfold cubing should be a show, not a freak-show. In other words: The cube should still look like a *regular cube*, and the blindfold should look like a *regular blindfold*. Any solution that does not meet these requirements is dumb and unnecessary.


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## Derrick Eide17 (Jan 17, 2008)

Joël said:


> Derrick Eide17 said:
> 
> 
> > yes thanks Mike for the response. yes the only drawback i see is a small lack of confort for some people, but it doenst have to be, if the tightness of the noseplug, or it making breathing out of your nose to be hard, you dont really have to use a hardcore TIGHT noseplug or anything  and you can just wear it at the top of ur nose or whereever so you can still breath fine. But yes many people might find this a little uncomfortable and i understand. but hey, it prevents cheating
> ...



LMAO hehhee yeah i hope it never comes to towels over heads and inside cages lol XD but what i mean by my idea is put the blindfold on and slip a noseplug on over it, or something like a rubber or metal bar over the bottom part of the Blindfold on your nose so it is IMPOSSIBLE to see under it. I think this idea doesnt make you look ridiculous at all. well.... okay maybe a LITTLE but i think it is the best so far.


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## masterofthebass (Jan 17, 2008)

Ok... I actually have a blindfold that utilizes this idea already. At the bottom of the blindfold, there is a heavily padded flap, preventing all light from getting in. It does an extremely good job of blocking light, as I am trying to tell the difference while staring into a desklamp. I got it from Rite-Aid (a drugstore for people not in the US). It wasn't expensive, and solves every issue that we have.


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## Mike Hughey (Jan 17, 2008)

masterofthebass said:


> Ok... I actually have a blindfold that utilizes this idea already. At the bottom of the blindfold, there is a heavily padded flap, preventing all light from getting in. It does an extremely good job of blocking light, as I am trying to tell the difference while staring into a desklamp. I got it from Rite-Aid (a drugstore for people not in the US). It wasn't expensive, and solves every issue that we have.



That sounds nice. Can you find it on the internet somewhere? If we had a common source to get them (like we have with stackmats, which are currently required for competitions), maybe it wouldn't be unreasonable to require them.


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## Stefan (Feb 9, 2008)

I've tried swimming goggles again. If worn correctly, they're pretty safe. With "correctly" I mean so that the bottom part should firmly press against the skin. The top part isn't important unless the cuber holds the cube above his head.

View from somewhat below:
http://www.stefan-pochmann.info/spocc/blindsolving/blindfolds/images/goggles.jpg

Slightly deforming my face, I was still able to, at least temporarily, create an extremely tiny gap that allowed me to see the cube when I held it on my side. Not sure how easily this could be detected by the judge/audience:
http://www.stefan-pochmann.info/spocc/blindsolving/blindfolds/images/goggles_cheat.jpg

However, if I wear the goggles badly, I can create a larger gap easily. Then, deforming my nose and skin around it just slightly, I can open and close the gap. A great blindfold would be goggles that are only transparent at the front and have an external shutter mechanism (similar to this). Then the competitor could put the blindfold on and the judge could check that it's worn correctly, all before the cube is uncovered. And after the memorization the competitor would simply flip down the shutter.


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## Pedro (Feb 9, 2008)

StefanPochmann said:


> *Not sure how easily this could be detected by the judge/audience:*
> http://www.stefan-pochmann.info/spocc/blindsolving/blindfolds/images/goggles_cheat.jpg



LOL!
I would never be able to detect that 

the other ones seem cool...

but..two things

are they easy to find/buy?
are they comfortable to wear for, say, 10 minutes?

I don't really really like goggles because they always seem to press strongly against my nose/eyes/part between them...I don't like the idea of wearing them for 10 minutes or more


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## Stefan (Feb 9, 2008)

These ones are pretty comfortable, yes, also for a longer time.

However, you just reminded me of something. These fit *me* well. Not sure how well they'd fit others. We have adults with large faces and kids with small faces. There might not be one-size-fits-all goggles. There are adjustable ones, but I really don't know. Oh and with "fit" I mean both comfort and safety against peeking.

Swimming goggles are easy to buy. Price ranges from three bucks to ridiculous. Unfortunately for us, it's not very easy to find ones that aren't at least semi-transparent all around. Swimmers apparently want to see as much as possible around them. Not good for us. But there are exceptions, they're just harder to find.

Welding goggles I don't know. And they usually aren't as watertight, they're worn rather loosely.

A combination would be what I imagine. Close to the skin like swimming goggles, but with the external shutter. I doubt this can easily be bought, so we might have to build them ourselves. Sigh.


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## Pedro (Feb 15, 2008)

I was talking to Dan Dzoan today and he gave 2 suggestions:

ski goggles (or snowboard ones, whatever)
they're big and cover all the eyes area...

but they're kinda expensive


and

Lab goggles!
yep, that sound a pretty good idea...lab goggles painted in black
here are some pics:
http://chemistry.umeche.maine.edu/Safety/goggle.gif
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/515dGZOpCaL._AA280_.jpg
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41pGRPrnbnL._AA280_.jpg

and they seem to be pretty cheap, as these:
http://images.google.com.br/imgres?...ages?q=lab+goggle&um=1&hl=pt-BR&safe=off&sa=N
(U$1,99)
http://www.amazon.com/Lab-Safety-Goggles-Anti-Fog-Lens/dp/B00139YMKG
(U$1,44)
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0..._m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=1FACP414KDPSTP6PSWT2
(U$0,94)

maybe if we order a bunch, we can get a discount


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## AvGalen (Feb 18, 2008)

The lab goggles look like a workable solution. Sprayed black and provided by the WCA should be a guarantee of the quality.

I am just a little worried about the "holes" I see on the picture. Are those really holes?


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## Pedro (Feb 18, 2008)

looks like just breathing holes...and they're at the side, so if someone wanted to see through them, he/she would need to hold the cube to the side, which would be easy to notice


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## ExoCorsair (Feb 19, 2008)

Pedro said:


> looks like just breathing holes...and they're at the side, so if someone wanted to see through them, he/she would need to hold the cube to the side, which would be easy to notice



Or turn his head to the side.`


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## pjk (Feb 19, 2008)

ExoCorsair said:


> Pedro said:
> 
> 
> > looks like just breathing holes...and they're at the side, so if someone wanted to see through them, he/she would need to hold the cube to the side, which would be easy to notice
> ...



I'm pretty sure it would be quite obvious when someone is cheating.


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## tim (Feb 19, 2008)

pjk said:


> ExoCorsair said:
> 
> 
> > Pedro said:
> ...



Yes, it would. But we need a solution, where no one is able to cheat, otherwise we would still need jugdes, which look at the competitor during the entire solve, just to tell, that the competitior _could_ have cheated.


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## Pedro (Feb 19, 2008)

just put some black tape at those holes...

they aren't for breathing, as I said, but to avoid fogging...which is not an issue, since we don't want to see anything with them


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## Derrick Eide17 (Feb 19, 2008)

i think the noseplug at the bottom of the BLD is the best. you cant create ANY GAP really from that. well?


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## Stefan (Feb 19, 2008)

I don't like that hard static bottom of the lab goggles. The bottom should better be like swimming goggles, soft and adjusting to the face shape.

Derrick, can you provide photos of your noseplug idea?


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## andrewvo1324 (Feb 19, 2008)

safety goggles are unconformable...


Why not put a hoodie on backward..lol and put the hood over your face. 

Or like a black box with 2 holes for hands....


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## Erik (Feb 19, 2008)

We would still like to see the cube being solved otherwise there is no fun at all for the audience and I also think that we should look for a bit smaller devices than black boxes, why not get a black plastic trash-bag over your head? xD (not seriously)


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## Derrick Eide17 (Feb 19, 2008)

no sorry stefan i cant post any photo's on here  ACTUALLY! i could take a photo and email it to you though


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## Pedro (Feb 19, 2008)

why email to him?

take a picture, host it at some place and post here


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## Stefan (Feb 19, 2008)

What? Why can't you post them here?


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## LarsN (Feb 19, 2008)

Google "noseplugs" and use your imagination to place the noseplugs on the outside of a regular blindfold. It's really not that technical.

The question is: would the pressure from the noseplug on the middle section of the blindfold do something to the edges of the blindfold which would enable you to see?

Since I'm at work I don't have a blindfold on me, but I guess you could test the idea by wearing a blindfold and pinch your nose.
Well, maybe some pictures would be nice afterall


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## Stefan (Feb 19, 2008)

LarsN said:


> I don't have a blindfold on me


See, that's exactly the reason I'd like a picture here of how it would look like. Of course I googled it but I didn't see them used on blindfolds. And I don't have one right here, either. And many people might not even own one at all.


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## Derrick Eide17 (Feb 19, 2008)

well because i dont know how to host pictures at some other place, i have tried before in the past and failed miserably. i would rather just email it, or maybe help me how i can host it somewhere else? thanks. wait... do i even HAVE a noseplug? XD


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## Stefan (Feb 19, 2008)

Why not simply attach it to your message here?


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## Pedro (Feb 19, 2008)

www.imageshack.us
www.photobucket.com

some options...


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## Derrick Eide17 (Feb 19, 2008)

Stefan: I dont know how to lol

Pedro: again I dont know how to lol


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## AvGalen (Feb 19, 2008)

Click on the 7th icon, the one that has the "Insert Image" popup.

It doesn't work for me though, maybe it gets blocked by some firewalls


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## Dene (Feb 19, 2008)

What about something like this?

Hmm, attachment isn't working I think, how does it work??

Oh I see, my file is too big. How can I upload a picture of like 300kb?


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## Pedro (Feb 19, 2008)

www.imageshack.us
www.imagehosting.us


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## Dene (Feb 19, 2008)

Let's see if this works.
Oh goody, it did! I forgot my old account on imageshack, but it's ok! I made a new one  . So yea, you ge tthe idea. Kind of, stand back to memo, one quick step forward to put your head in a groove, and solve under the barrier. Everyone can see, quicker than putting a blindfold on, and no cheating possible. Also, not too difficult to make.

imageshack has changed a lot since last timi I used it, it's actually use-able now!


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## Pedro (Feb 20, 2008)

I'm not sure if I understood your drawing...

is the guy doing it one-handed and with his other hand at the barrier?


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## Dene (Feb 20, 2008)

Oh no, sorry, to clarify, for anyone who may misread it, he is solving two handed. The thing coming from the top of the pole i like a board that he puts his chin on.


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## Pedro (Feb 20, 2008)

oh, so it's very similar to what Stefan proposed
http://stefan-pochmann.info/spocc/blindsolving/blindfolds/
"While the table idea is very safe, it might also be a bit unpractical for competitions. Instead, a board could be installed higher than the regular table, and then..."

at middle of the page


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## van21691 (Feb 21, 2008)

do you know what scientist use for experimenting. They use this big glass and then a hole for their arm..

Use that idea for blindfold


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## Joël (Feb 21, 2008)

van21691 said:


> do you know what scientist use for experimenting. They use this big glass and then a hole for their arm..
> 
> Use that idea for blindfold



Any idea how such a setup is called?


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## Erik (Feb 21, 2008)

Dene said:


> Let's see if this works.
> Oh goody, it did! I forgot my old account on imageshack, but it's ok! I made a new one  . So yea, you ge tthe idea. Kind of, stand back to memo, one quick step forward to put your head in a groove, and solve under the barrier. Everyone can see, quicker than putting a blindfold on, and no cheating possible. Also, not too difficult to make.
> 
> imageshack has changed a lot since last timi I used it, it's actually use-able now!



Wow imagine what the WCA delegate has to carry with them on all competitions... not very practical I think


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## Stefan (Feb 21, 2008)

Joël said:


> Any idea how such a setup is called?


Glove box: http://xtal.itqb.unl.pt/img/glove_box.jpg


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## Joël (Feb 22, 2008)

StefanPochmann said:


> Joël said:
> 
> 
> > Any idea how such a setup is called?
> ...



That was actually the sort of setup I was thinking about myself.

I remember I saw it on a television show once, where people had to feel certain objects and guess what they were. Maybe these things are for sale somewhere? (I mean a version that is suitable for our purposes.. Just a box that blocks the sight on one side, and is open on the other, so the audience can see what is going on).


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## Jai (Feb 22, 2008)

How about thick (gel/leather?) blindfolds that make it hard to open your eyes and blink? Somebody opening their eyes and blinking under that should be noticeable under such a blindfold.


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## Derrick Eide17 (Feb 23, 2008)

how about lets attach little alarms to peoples eyelids?  so when they look down even the slightest bit the alarm goes off and everyone can hear it!  

(OBVIOUSLY joking lol)


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## KConny (Feb 23, 2008)

How about one of those? But ofc not that big and clumsy.


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## Hadley4000 (Feb 23, 2008)

Those are all to complex. Just go poke them in the eyes. That should do the trick.


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## Hadley4000 (Feb 23, 2008)

OK. To be serious though, I think it could be as much as a simple piece of fabric.

My blindfold.




Easy to see under.

My blindfold with extra fabric. Though at a tournament a sock wouldn't be used.






Can't see a thing.


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## Karthik (Feb 23, 2008)

Hadley, are you able to breathe easily?


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## Joël (Feb 23, 2008)

karthikputhraya said:


> Hadley, are you able to breathe easily?



We don't want to have any families sueing the WCA afterwards.


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## Hadley4000 (Feb 23, 2008)

karthikputhraya said:


> Hadley, are you able to breathe easily?



Through my mouth.


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## Derrick Eide17 (Feb 23, 2008)

i thought about this... how about.. two blindfolds?  you pull them both down at the same time, one of your eyes, the other under the other blindfold, so you cant see a thing!  seriously, what do you guys think of this?


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## Hadley4000 (Feb 23, 2008)

That's similar to my idea, but probably makes more sense.


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## Derrick Eide17 (Feb 23, 2008)

yeah i thought about something like that too  yes, your idea is better if only we could have a convenient way to have the fabric covering the bottom of the Blindfold. hmmmm


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## Hadley4000 (Feb 23, 2008)

I know there is a better way. That was just me doing it with a sock, in under 5 minutes. I could try to sew some fabric on my blindfold, see how that works.


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## alexc (Feb 25, 2008)

This thread is getting so ridiculous, lol!  

@Hadley4000
That picture of you with the sock on your face made me laugh so hard!


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## MarcusStuhr (Feb 26, 2008)

Guys, the easiest solution is to use something like this

http://www.daviessports.co.uk/webap...66_10551_-1_211262_52773_52751_52773_Primary_

Or just anything that actually encompasses the eye that doesn't allow for peeking.


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## Stefan (Feb 26, 2008)

Gah. "Blindfold goggles". Why didn't I search for that? Not sure about the one you showed, Marcus, but here are some that look very promising:
http://www.activity-plus.co.uk/img/l//blindfold-boggles.jpg

There seems to be a soft rubber border on the back, which would be great. In larger quantities they become a lot cheaper, too:
http://www.activity-plus.co.uk/blindfold-goggles

These seem to be the same, just a different seller:
http://www.kit4trainers.co.uk/blindfold-goggles.htm

And some others...
http://www.axovus.com/goggles.html


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## Pedro (Feb 26, 2008)

actually, Stefan, Tyson is already looking into those ones

Leyan asked for a sample and they'll send it (or already sent)

then indeed seem good for what we want


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## MarcusStuhr (Feb 26, 2008)

Stefan: I was just providing an example -- I wasn't advocating any specific pair of goggles, but I do think using goggles would be better than standard blindfolds. Many blindfolds are incredibly easy to manipulate and peek through if you fiddle around with them, but goggles are pretty much impossible to get around.


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## Mike Hughey (Feb 26, 2008)

These seem really great to me - one problem I have to deal with is that I wear glasses and don't have contacts. I have to remove my glasses before donning the blindfold in competition - at the VA Open, I removed them after the memorization phase for big cubes, but took them off before starting on 3x3x3. It slows me down on the big cubes, and with the 3x3x3 I can't see as well - it surely doesn't help. Being able to wear these over glasses is a real benefit for me.


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## AvGalen (Feb 27, 2008)

I guess the search is over. So from now on we will use a timer and mat that were made for speedstacks and glasses that were made for "blind games".

The very least we could do is invent a scrambling machine before some other sport/game beats us to it


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## andrewvo1324 (Feb 27, 2008)

This is a pretty good idea i have,

Why dont you just get 3 pieces of wood and make a shape like: 

.____ 
|......|

Place it on the edge of the table...They solve with the cube under the top piece of wood. I dont think you can see through wood.


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## MarcusStuhr (Feb 27, 2008)

It makes for awkward solving. Much more efficient to just have a better blindfolding device worn on the face. In this case, I feel goggles would be more appropriate because there is really no way to "peek" through the bottom of a pair of goggles! Furthermore, this still allows freedom in terms of movement (that is, not forcing people to do it behind their backs, etc), and, as stated already by another member, it also allows people with glasses to compete more easily since larger goggles simply fit over your normal glasses. The point of blindfold solving is to not use the eyes -- and therefore, rendering eyes useless is the goal here. When you try to hide the cube from the eyes instead of hiding the eyes from the cube, you run into problems that cut into various comfort zones of general solving.

Goggles is by far the best option -- solves the problem at a low cost and doesn't interfere with any functions of solving other than sight, which is the idea. IMO this is really not debatable, haha. Goggles are a must!


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## pjk (Feb 27, 2008)

Goggles sounds great to me. Until then though, the paper should be sufficient.

Nice to see you around Marcus.


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## MarcusStuhr (Feb 27, 2008)

Likewise to you -- I've been getting back into cubing more seriously as of late.

I see you've become an admin, haha


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## Hadley4000 (Feb 27, 2008)

Mike Hughey said:


> These seem really great to me - one problem I have to deal with is that I wear glasses and don't have contacts. I have to remove my glasses before donning the blindfold in competition - at the VA Open, I removed them after the memorization phase for big cubes, but took them off before starting on 3x3x3. It slows me down on the big cubes, and with the 3x3x3 I can't see as well - it surely doesn't help. Being able to wear these over glasses is a real benefit for me.




"Can be worn over glasses"


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## Mike Hughey (Feb 27, 2008)

Hadley4000 said:


> Mike Hughey said:
> 
> 
> > These seem really great to me - one problem I have to deal with is that I wear glasses and don't have contacts. I have to remove my glasses before donning the blindfold in competition - at the VA Open, I removed them after the memorization phase for big cubes, but took them off before starting on 3x3x3. It slows me down on the big cubes, and with the 3x3x3 I can't see as well - it surely doesn't help. Being able to wear these over glasses is a real benefit for me.
> ...



Yeah, that was my point.


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## Hadley4000 (Feb 27, 2008)

Mike Hughey said:


> Hadley4000 said:
> 
> 
> > Mike Hughey said:
> ...




Oh. Misread that. My bad


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## icke (Mar 1, 2008)

i think skigoggles would be a good bld. it is much more comfortable then the labgoggles.
you can also cheat if you know how your stickers are. some of my stickers have little marks which could also help you with cheating.


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## joey (Mar 1, 2008)

Here is a way to stop cheating, suggested by KConny and qqwref.

You have two cubes, one with Scramble applied. The other with 5-10 premoves applied, then the Scramble applied.

The competitior memorises cube 1, then picks up cube 2 and solves using that. If he has memorised correctly, and executed correctly, the judge can undo the 5-10 premoves, and the cube should be solved.

Keemy had come up with a way to do it with one cube, but I've forgotten the details, I'll make sure to ask him soon.


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## Stefan (Mar 1, 2008)

joey, that idea has been suggested and ruled out a long time ago because it looks bad. People want to see the competitor solve the cube.


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## joey (Mar 1, 2008)

I was just given the honour to suggest it here. I didn't realise it had been suggested before.

I agree with you though, I want to see it being solved! But it is foolproof!


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## KConny (Mar 1, 2008)

Kemmys idea was that you do a y2 before starting solving.


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## joey (Mar 1, 2008)

I couldn't seem to get it to work though.
KConny can you give an example?


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## KConny (Mar 1, 2008)

Normal scrambling, normal memo, and before you start solving you do a y2. This results in the cube not being solved when you're done so you won't benefit from looking. And you let a computer compute how the cube should look like if you've done it correctly.


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## brad711 (Mar 2, 2008)

Those may work, but they look a little funny


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## van21691 (Mar 14, 2008)

Joël said:


> van21691 said:
> 
> 
> > do you know what scientist use for experimenting. They use this big glass and then a hole for their arm..
> ...



Dene did the picture, but instead of enclosing it.
why not just cover the whole thing.
I will draw a picture later


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## jonny guitar (Mar 14, 2008)

My first though on reading this thread was modified motocross goggles/face (or paint ball) protector like this....







Seems it could be blacked out and some opaque material could go over the vents (they already have black foam on them to filter out the mud and fumes). The molding of the mask portion seems to bulge out under the eyes and could work pretty well. They look kinda ominous when worn but better than some other things. 

A more cost effective route might be google style with a tight neoprene wrap attached to the on the lower edge which would be tied tightly around head -- would be tight against skin and not allow for peaking out underneath both the googles and the added neoprene layer.


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## David Pritts (Mar 14, 2008)

Modifying a pair of reasonably cheap goggles would be pretty easy, I'd think.

Jonny's idea looks pretty cool, but probably isn't cost effective -_-


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## van21691 (Mar 15, 2008)

thats what i have


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## badmephisto (Mar 15, 2008)

i don't see why this is a 17page topic... 
use googles... 
http://www.velocitysnowboards.com/products_pictures/bolle-goggles.jpg

problem solved.


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## Genie1048 (Mar 31, 2008)

towels for a blindofld are not very good. I've been using them, but for longer solves like multiple blindfolded events, your breath heats everything inside of it. unless someone has already discussed this, disregard this message...


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## striderxo (Apr 2, 2008)

Pepperspray their eyes after they memo and every so often.

I sure would not cheat... nor compete...


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## Genie1048 (Apr 3, 2008)

I have a solution to the fact people will bring in magic store blindfolds:
A WCA approved towel ontop of people's own towel would assure the solver is not able to see the cube. This method also solves Stefan's initial fear that putting on a blindfold after someone els would be unsanitary, because you still use your own towel. The only problem as stated in one of my earlier posts is the heat over time.


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## Crzyazn (Apr 3, 2008)

I was thinking like some kind of sneezegaurd....but lower and black plastic >.<


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## Pedro (May 21, 2008)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4fh84DEZlDs

just had this idea, and I think it really works good

I'm open for discussion


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## Jai (May 22, 2008)

Nice idea, Pedro, but what if you lower your head to think or something, and the hood falls off? (some of those "banana" hoodies that zip up all the way to the top might fix that, though) And, there might be some breathing problems, and some peoples' hoodies may be thin, and they could have partial or even full vision of the cube.


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## pcharles93 (May 22, 2008)

I can't solve blindfolded, but I have a simple idea. You set up a huge box big enough for a cuber with a window cut out of it and holes for hands. When memo is over, you can just cover the hole with a board or cover it with a huge sheet.


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## Pedro (May 22, 2008)

Jai said:


> Nice idea, Pedro, but what if you lower your head to think or something, and the hood falls off? (some of those "banana" hoodies that zip up all the way to the top might fix that, though) And, there might be some breathing problems, *and some peoples' hoodies may be thin, and they could have partial or even full vision of the cube.*



well, yeah, that can happen...people could just wear the common blindfold too, just to make sure

it it falls, the judge can lift it again

about the bolded part, I don't see how that is possible, unless you're holding the cube to your side, which would be very suspicious


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## ajmorgan25 (May 22, 2008)

Honestly, I have no idea why this thread has gotten this many posts. Many of the ideas on here are very inefficient and not practical at all. Many methods posted may keep the competitor from seeing the cube, but with consequences.

The most practical solution in my opinion comes from another area with a similar problem. When pilots are training to earn their license, they must be trained to fly using both their vision and instruments. When they train to fly using instruments only, the pilots wear a hood that blocks all vision above the instrument panel. 

The WCA could use similar hoods for blindfold solves. Here's a link that shows a picture. Obviously the hood would be below your eyes rather than above. In other words, you'd be wearing the visor upside down.

http://www.pilotstore.com/store/item.asp?ITEM_ID=1692&DEPARTMENT_ID=78


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## Pedro (May 22, 2008)

but how do you wear that below your eyes?


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## ajmorgan25 (May 22, 2008)

Imagine wearing a visor upside down. It's the same thing.


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## immortalcube (May 29, 2008)

My sister is a pilot, and I think she still has one lying around somewhere. I'll see if I can find it, and test it out for BLD (assuming it hasn't been thrown out or lost or anything).


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## AvGalen (Jun 2, 2008)

Solution at Nantes: solve below the table. For multiple blind a small plateau below the table was used.

I didn't like it because of the spectator issue. Even the judge had no idea what was going on. maybe next time I put a solved cube between my legs below the table and swap it with the competition cube?


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