# MEMO time for 3x3x3?



## reThinking the Cube (Apr 22, 2010)

There have been many suggestions for BLD memorization methods/techniques over the last year or so, and I am wondering what affect this has had on memo times for 3x3x3.

Using your fastest memo methods on freshly scrambled 3x3x3's (please post method descriptions) what are your best average times for just the memo?

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## Simboubou (Apr 22, 2010)

I average 25-35 seconds on memo : 15-20 to memorize edges with a "story" method, 10-15 to memorize corners : permutations in "shape", and orientation in "Flash"


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## Mike Hughey (Apr 22, 2010)

I guess I should vote 30-60. I've had times when I've managed to memo sub-30 on a whole set of solves, but that's rare. My overall average is probably 40 to 45 seconds.

I memorize edges first, then flipped-in-place edges, then corners, then twisted-in-place corners. I use images in a story to memorize edges, a single image (or 2, if necessary) for flipped edges, words (my image names, but without visualizing the image) verbally for corners, and pure visual for twisted corners.


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## Dene (Apr 23, 2010)

Over 2 mins using Old Pochmann. I don't practise though.


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## Feryll (Apr 23, 2010)

I remember some member saying he hated people who confused the 'affect' and 'effect' words, but whatever.
I average around 2 mins, maybe more, using M2 and pochmann corners, but if this is supposed to determine the best method, it's flawed. But otherwise, interesting poll.


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## qqwref (Apr 23, 2010)

It depends much more on the person and the amount of practice they've put in than on the particular method. That's all that needs to be said.


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## chahupping (Apr 23, 2010)

i can memo >1min for edges, and maybe 30secs for corners.. the whole solve would take around 2:40 to 3:30 depends on execution..


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## riffz (Apr 23, 2010)

qqwref said:


> It depends much more on the person and the amount of practice they've put in than on the particular method. That's all that needs to be said.



But good times do indicate the potential of a memory method.



Dene said:


> Over 2 mins using Old Pochmann. I don't practise though.



I've never heard of the Old Pochmann memory method.


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## Dene (Apr 23, 2010)

riffz said:


> Dene said:
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> > Over 2 mins using Old Pochmann. I don't practise though.
> ...



Just as you solve, you memo sticker by sticker in a cycle. I think the easiest way to categorise this is the same way as the method used to solve it, "Old Pochmann". You might feel the need to contest that but I don't really see any need.


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## Ranzha (Apr 23, 2010)

EO, EP (Old Pochmann), corners.
EO = 10-20 seconds. I'm slow.
EP OP = 40 seconds.
Corners = 1 min 20 sec, because I haven't really established a way to memo with OP corners.


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## LewisJ (Apr 23, 2010)

Ranzha V. Emodrach said:


> EO, EP (Old Pochmann), corners.
> EO = 10-20 seconds. I'm slow.
> EP OP = 40 seconds.
> Corners = 1 min 20 sec, because I haven't really established a way to memo with OP corners.



...separate EO with old pochmann? wat?


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## riffz (Apr 23, 2010)

Dene said:


> riffz said:
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Okay. You meant that you memorize in order of the cycles. But almost everyone does that. I think by memory method he means *how* you remember the pieces and what order they are in.


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## riffz (Apr 23, 2010)

LewisJ said:


> Ranzha V. Emodrach said:
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> > EO, EP (Old Pochmann), corners.
> ...



I'm trying to interpret this differently than you, but I think you're right.

Ranzha, do you orient edges and then permute them one by one using Old Pochmann? Or have you confused the name of the edge method you use?


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## Ranzha (Apr 23, 2010)

riffz said:


> LewisJ said:
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I do EO, and them I permute OP-style. It's easier to memo, but I'm trying to switch to edges as one step with M2.


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## riffz (Apr 23, 2010)

Ranzha V. Emodrach said:


> riffz said:
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That is really wierd. You do know that although you may find it slightly faster to memorize, execution will be way slower, since the setup moves are equally as easy for unoriented edges.


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## Dene (Apr 23, 2010)

riffz said:


> Dene said:
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Oh, you mean like visual memo? Like as if there are people around that don't use visual memo for 3x3? XD

Also, I memo corners first, then edges. This way I can establish parity, and adjust appropriately during edge memo. I know that's stupid but I don't bld enough to care.


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## Zava (Apr 23, 2010)

around 15-20, well in competition it is more like 40-60... :S


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## Zane_C (Apr 23, 2010)

When I'm relaxed on my own maby 1:00-1:30.
I don't know what my break downs are though.
Memo corners visually > memo 4 or so edges visually, the rest just put together a bunch of letters to make whatever > solve edges > solve corners.


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## TMOY (Apr 23, 2010)

I can memo consistently in 45-50 seconds. It goes over a minute only when I want to secure it.


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## riffz (Apr 23, 2010)

Dene said:


> riffz said:
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I'm not quite sure I understand what your sarcastic comment meant.  My point was that calling your memory method "Old Pochmann" doesn't make any sense, just as calling your memory method "BH" or "M2" tells people nothing about how you memorize.


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## trying-to-speedcube... (Apr 23, 2010)

Anywhere between 30 and 45. It's the 50-60 execution that screws up my times


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## onionhoney (Apr 23, 2010)

Haiyan uses less than 15 seconds.


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## Dene (Apr 23, 2010)

riffz said:


> Dene said:
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Heh, I was just trying to say that I memo visually, as I should hope that everyone does for 3x3 bld. There really is no reason to do anything other than visual, which is clearly the best way.


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## Mike Hughey (Apr 23, 2010)

trying-to-speedcube... said:


> Anywhere between 30 and 45. It's the 50-60 execution that screws up my times


This.


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## aronpm (Apr 23, 2010)

Dene said:


> Heh, I was just trying to say that I memo visually, as I should hope that everyone does for 3x3 bld. There really is no reason to do anything other than visual, which is clearly the best way.



I don't do visual for anything... 

I memo everything with letters. Maybe I will start doing visual corners when I finish learning BH corners. Normally my memo takes about 30-45 seconds I guess. I'm not sure about the individual times though.


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## Zane_C (Apr 23, 2010)

For multi I memorise 1 cube with all letters and the other completely visual, I find it a lot easier that way.


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## x-colo-x (Apr 23, 2010)

between 25 and 35, i take 20-28 for edges and 4-7 for corners, but i lost a lot of time with execution


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## Micael (Apr 23, 2010)

40-60sec. I don't really practice (though I want!, just too busy). Once I got it, it is just like bike: I can do it anytime.

Method: Person-Action combined with method of loci. I "see" those images in my mind. Not that fast, but very good for recall and multi. I can memorize 10 cubes in 25-30 minutes.


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## riffz (Apr 23, 2010)

Dene said:


> Heh, I was just trying to say that I memo visually, as I should hope that everyone does for 3x3 bld. There really is no reason to do anything other than visual, which is clearly the best way.



I'm pretty sure Haiyan uses letters or something of the sort. Plus a lot of very fast BLD solvers don't use visual. But I guess your BLD times are the ultimate testament to visual.   (Just to clarify, my last sentence was a joke.)


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## joey (Apr 23, 2010)

Visual is the best, by far.


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## ben1996123 (Apr 23, 2010)

4 minutes, 

I memo in this order: 

Edges
Flipped edges
Parity
Corners
Twisted corners

I use letter pairs for memo, and usually just remember a bunch of letters, which edges to flip (eg. DF buffer, FL FD etc.), and the same for twisted corners (eg. L2 y' chameleon shaped oll with commutators y L2 etc.)


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## Mike Hughey (Apr 23, 2010)

joey said:


> Visual is the best, by far.



*If* it's really true that Haiyan uses letters instead of pure visual, then I would be inclined to disagree with you. But I admit I don't know if that's true or not.

It seems to me that it should eventually be possible to be just as fast with a mnemonic system as you are with pure visual, although it certainly would take a lot of practice to get that fast, whereas visual is immediately very fast.


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## Ville Seppänen (Apr 23, 2010)

<15s. Letters for edges, mainly visual for corners.


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## joey (Apr 23, 2010)

Haiyan just has VERY good exec, not memo.


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## riffz (Apr 23, 2010)

Ville Seppänen said:


> <15s. *Letters for edges*, mainly visual for corners.



PLEASE tell us how you memorize corners! What tricks do you use?



joey said:


> Haiyan just has VERY good exec, not memo.



I'd say < 15s memo is pretty damn good.


I know some of the fastest BLD solvers use visual, but that still doesn't mean it's the best choice for everyone. I think some people are better off using memory methods because they can't recall pure visual.


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## mande (Apr 23, 2010)

My memo is usually around 1:10ish.
I use letter pairs for EP, numbers for CP, visual for EO and CO. (I use 3OP)
I memo EP first, then CP, and then (EO and CO) in any order.


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## Micael (Apr 23, 2010)

joey said:


> Haiyan just has VERY good exec, not memo.



What do you mean Joey? I see 2 world record videos of him with 11-12sec memo.


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## joey (Apr 23, 2010)

I mean, obviously he has very good memo, but his exec is more impressive I think.


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## Mike Hughey (Apr 23, 2010)

Oh, and since Ville uses letters too, then I'm even more convinced: letters must be at least almost as good as visual. So, visual might still in fact be best, but I don't believe it's best by far. Sorry, Joey.


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## amostay2004 (Apr 23, 2010)

I think I'm sort of a mix between visual and letters for edges. I use letters to memo but most of the time I would actually visualise those letters in my head to memorise them.


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## MatsBergsten (Apr 23, 2010)

Just in honour of Joey (or his claim) I actually memoed and solved a whole cube visually. It was easier than I thought, took only 3:30 or so.


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## riffz (Apr 23, 2010)

Mike Hughey said:


> Oh, and since Ville uses letters too, then I'm even more convinced: letters must be at least almost as good as visual. So, visual might still in fact be best, but I don't believe it's best by far. Sorry, Joey.



Agreed. Personally I don't like visual. Its not for me. I use letters for edges and visual for corners but corner memo is what's killing my solves at the moment.


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## Micael (Apr 24, 2010)

amostay2004 said:


> I think I'm sort of a mix between visual and letters for edges. I use letters to memo but most of the time I would actually visualise those letters in my head to memorise them.



If you visualise those letters, then you use letters. "Visual" mean to memorize directly where pieces should go. That is how this word is used in this forum.

In my opinion, the word "visual" is a bit ambigous. I use images so I actually "visualise" them. That is not at all what we mean by "visual". Most people here understand what we mean by "visual", but I still think a more specific word would be better.


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## Escher (Apr 24, 2010)

Micael said:


> In my opinion, the word "visual" is a bit ambigous. I use images so I actually "visualise" them. That is not at all what we mean by "visual". Most people here understand what we mean by "visual", but I still think a more specific word would be better.



'Direct'?


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## Ranzha (Apr 24, 2010)

riffz said:


> Ranzha V. Emodrach said:
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> > riffz said:
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I find it harder to memo, is all. I end up forgetting the orientations of edges, and it all goes downhill from there.

I memo letters for edges, and numbers for corners. Simple modifiers for CO.


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## Chuck (Apr 24, 2010)

30-50 seconds.
Image and loci, just like Micael.

Visual memo is very hard for me, I can't recall anything more than 3 taps..


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## ManasijV (Apr 24, 2010)

30-40 seconds.
I don't know the splits. I memorize corners first (Letters and visual) and then edges at one go! I execute edges first too.


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## joey (Apr 24, 2010)

I'm getting bullied now.


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## Mike Hughey (Apr 24, 2010)

joey said:


> I'm getting bullied now.



Just so you know, even though I don't think it's "better by far", I do suspect it is better. So don't take it too hard - I still think you have a point.

I think visual is probably fastest (perhaps by only fractions of a second) when perfected. But the advantage of not doing visual is you're more likely to be able to do lots and lots of them in a row, where with visual it seems like it's hard to just keep going for hours at it. But maybe that's just me.


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## Dene (Apr 24, 2010)

Stupid too many people coming in here trying to prove my point wrong  .

SPEF WHY DID YOU BETRAY ME?!


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## FredM (Apr 24, 2010)

Doesn't Rowe use to be using visual in his blinds ? (May be wrong though ....)


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## Micael (Apr 24, 2010)

Mike Hughey said:


> [...] where with visual it seems like* it's hard to just keep going for hours* at it. But maybe that's just me.



What!? To keep going for hours! You do that?


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## Feryll (Apr 24, 2010)

Mike Hughey said:


> joey said:
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> > I'm getting bullied now.
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Not really too hard to keep going. Your head might feel fuzzy and used, but as long as you take a minute or two break, the short term memory of what pieces you tapped are flushed away.


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## Mike Hughey (Apr 25, 2010)

Micael said:


> Mike Hughey said:
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> > [...] where with visual it seems like* it's hard to just keep going for hours* at it. But maybe that's just me.
> ...



Sometimes. Unfortunately, I don't often have that kind of time, but I like to when I can. It seems like after about 25 3x3x3 BLD solves, I really get warmed up and I can often get some of my fastest solves.

I know Chester said he did something like 20 5x5x5 BLD attempts in one day a few months ago. I wish I had the time to try that sometime - it would be fun!


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## rubiknewbie (Apr 29, 2010)

Over 2 min for sure. I haven't even done BLD solves for a few weeks.


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## Aldo Feandri (May 9, 2010)

30-50 seconds.
Image and loci, just like Chuck . He taught me very well.


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## Yes We Can! (May 17, 2010)

Ranzha V. Emodrach said:


> EO, EP (Old Pochmann), corners.
> EO = 10-20 seconds. I'm slow.
> EP OP = 40 seconds.
> Corners = 1 min 20 sec, because I haven't really established a way to memo with OP corners.



I know. This thread is a bit old.
But... WHAT?! The principle of Old Pochmann is pretty much to do orientation and permutation in one step!

My memo is about 30-50  I will practice though.


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## Micael (May 17, 2010)

Yes said:


> Ranzha V. Emodrach said:
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> > EO, EP (Old Pochmann), corners.
> ...



Hum... good question. Maybe He really orient first. I did it when I first learn R2, so at first I just need 7 algs and could start to do full solve quite soon.


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## roundy (May 18, 2010)

my memo time is about 15-20 . i hate it .... slow down my overall time both corner and edge use letters, but edge letters memo with "sound", corner letters translate to "image". maybe i should try ville's mainly visual corner method.


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## riffz (May 18, 2010)

roundy said:


> my memo time is about 15-20 . i hate it .... slow down my overall time both corner and edge use letters, but edge letters memo with "sound", corner letters translate to "image". maybe i should try ville's mainly visual corner method.



Hey, great to have you on the forum! I'm currently in the process of switching to a memo method equivalent to your current one, and its good to see that it has a lot of potential. I know you aren't entirely satisfied with it, but 15-20s memo would be more than enough for me!


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