# Dayan Vs Verdes Petition



## HavoCentral (Dec 17, 2010)

You can find the Petition Here

As of right now we are almost at one hundred, lets try for two by the end of the weekend.

Tell your friends.

OMG, someone made a video about this.

I feel honored. lol


**Only the names I recognize, If a famous cuber signed and I missed it let me know

*New Petition Statement*
As many cubers know, Verdes Innovations S.A. has recently stated 
that the Dayan Lingyun and Guhong cubes infringe on the patent rights
granted by the following patent as shown at the link: 
http://v-cubes.com/pdf/European_patent.pdf

Verdes Innovations S.A. has been known to take cubes
off the market, yet not releasing their own.
This petition is to see if we can get Verdes Innovations S.A.'s
attention and show them how much this action has affected
the cubing community as a whole, in hopes they will retract
their claim.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is the updated petition statement, If you have already signed the petition and do not agree with the signed petition, PM me with your signed name and the number you were, and I will remove your signature.

*Changes* 
Fixed Grammar
Added link to patent information
Made it more professional sounding



Credit to Learning COde for the original write up.


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## StachuK1992 (Dec 17, 2010)

And how will this help anything?


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## ~Adam~ (Dec 17, 2010)

If 200 people say they will not buy any more V products it will make them take notice.
I for one spent 150 euros with them last year alone.

Edit - 200 euros


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## lorki3 (Dec 17, 2010)

Signed 
Hope it wil help.


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## Reinier Schippers (Dec 17, 2010)

Signed aswell i will wait for my v cubes


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## HavoCentral (Dec 17, 2010)

Personally I doubt it will help this matter unless it reaches high number, 500+ at least.
But It cant hurt to try, petitions have been known to start things and finish them.

CONGRATULATIONS!!! Daniel Waldir, you were the 100th siggy!! 
 but I was number 1 PP lol



Reinier Schippers said:


> Signed aswell i will wait for my v cubes


 
I feel bad for you, now you are stuck with product that needs to be modified in order to be better than the competition from china.
The only V-Cube I would ever buy is a V7 since its the only one that is good right off, and I would only buy it for like $25 dollars.


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## einstein00 (Dec 17, 2010)

signed, hey this post has been up for a whole one hour, and already 100+? that's crazy fast


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## ~Adam~ (Dec 17, 2010)

The thread has been up for an hour. The petition was started yesterday.


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## HavoCentral (Dec 17, 2010)

einstein00 said:


> signed, hey this post has been up for a whole one hour, and already 100+? that's crazy fast


 
Lol, posted the petition last night in the Dayan Guhong vs. V-Cube Patent Infringement, but someone said it should be its own thread and i agreed. lol

but still 100+ sigs in like 12 hours is good.


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## Fire Cuber (Dec 17, 2010)

cube-o-holic said:


> The thread has been up for an hour. The petition was started yesterday.


 
hmm yeah it's up ~12 hours before this



Ἀλέξανδρος said:


> :fp Pathetic!


 
Very funny.


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## Bryan (Dec 17, 2010)

People will sign a petition with bad grammar?


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## Sa967St (Dec 17, 2010)

For those who are putting comments beside their names, the petition would have a better impression if you spelled and capitalized words properly and used proper punctuation.


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## HavoCentral (Dec 17, 2010)

Bryan said:


> People will sign a petition with bad grammar?


 
Yes, I realize that there is bad grammar, I also realize I typed it up in about 30 seconds, and tried to correct it as soon as I noticed.
I have yet to figure that out.
The point of the petition is not to win an award for grammar, but to get signatures.


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## Speedy McFastfast (Dec 17, 2010)

And nobody is going to take you seriously if you can't take the time to at least write your native language properly. Just saying...


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## theace (Dec 17, 2010)

I just signed. There are 118 now. I put this up on facebook as well. Hopefully, some of my cuber friends will sign it too.


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## ElectricDoodie (Dec 17, 2010)

HavoCentral said:


> The point of the petition is not to win an award for grammar, but to get signatures.


 



Speedy McFastfast said:


> And nobody is going to take you seriously if you can't take the time to at least write your native language properly. Just saying...


 

This.


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## Fluffy (Dec 17, 2010)

I don't know if it will help but I signed it.


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## LearningCode (Dec 17, 2010)

I would actually agree with Speedy McFastfast here =/
We may understand the meaning and aims behind the petition but Verdes and *Insert blah here* wouldn't wanna' pay attention to a poorly done petition, methinks.

I hate being a conformist, too.
But some things have to be done in a certain way to make others happy or to manipulate them =/

Umm... Something like this? xD
I kinda' never do these things, so..
Someone with proper experience should have a go at it <.<

Copy Pasta'!


> As many cubers know, Verdes Innovations S.A. has recently stated that the Dayan Lingyun and Guhong cubes infringe on the copyrights granted by the following patent as shown at the link: http://www.google.com/patents?id=SRDJAAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom=4#v=onepage&q&f=false
> 
> Verdes Innovations S.A. is notorious for taking good cubes off the market to remove competition because they are selling better than their products.
> This petition is to see if we can get Verdes Innovations S.A.'s ruling overturned.
> ...


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## Reinier Schippers (Dec 17, 2010)

HavoCentral said:


> I feel bad for you, now you are stuck with product that needs to be modified in order to be better than the competition from china.
> The only V-Cube I would ever buy is a V7 since its the only one that is good right off, and I would only buy it for like $25 dollars.


 It is not that big of a deal. I mean like, what if every company would do what v cube is doing now. Then we would all be annoyed because we cant choose between different branches. I think the Guhong is way much better than a AV compared to a eastheen (or other kind of brand) with a v5. V6 just sucks. V7 is what you said before is indeed the one that is good right off
Amen xD


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## shelley (Dec 17, 2010)

HavoCentral said:


> The point of the petition is not to win an award for grammar, but to get signatures.


 
Wrong. The signatures don't do squat if the petition is ignored. The point of a petition is to get something to change. And you won't get things to change if people don't take you seriously.

If you can't take a cause seriously enough to spend more than 30 seconds drafting a petition, why should anyone else?


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## Kapusta (Dec 17, 2010)

I signed, but I'm not boycotting anything. I still think V-Cubes is a good company, but I fail to see where the Guhong fits into the patent. Personally, I'd buy from both companies.


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## HavoCentral (Dec 17, 2010)

LearningCode said:


> Copy Pasta'!


 
I have sent a message to change the statement to what you said with a link here 
http://v-cubes.com/pdf/European_patent.pdf instead.

If it gets changed i will let you know.

I have always been a horrible writer and I thank you for your contribution.


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## Sa967St (Dec 17, 2010)

HavoCentral said:


> If it gets changed i will let you know.


 I doubt you'll be able to change it. The people who signed so far have agreed to what you originally wrote, so there could be issues if you were able to change the wording of the petition.


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## HavoCentral (Dec 17, 2010)

Sa967St said:


> I doubt you'll be able to change it. The people who signed so far have agreed to what you originally wrote, so there could be issues if you were able to change the wording of the petition.


 
I thought about that, but it could still happen since I am not changing in entirely, just rewording and adding documentation.
But who knows.

Should a new one be started?


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## Dene (Dec 17, 2010)

I think you should stop being stupid and wait to find out the facts.


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## Cyrus C. (Dec 17, 2010)

This whole thing seems blown out of proportion...


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## danielwrr (Dec 17, 2010)

I was the 100th siggnature \o/

I won't buy any v-cubes if they really do this to dayan guhong cubes..

(And i'm sure that i won't buy any v-cubes soon here in Brazil)


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## HavoCentral (Dec 17, 2010)

Dene said:


> I think you should stop being stupid and wait to find out the facts.




I'm not the only person commenting on this incident and I would be happy to wait, but it is unknown if and when any facts or valid points are to be officially released.


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## EnterPseudonym (Dec 17, 2010)

i say we boycott verdes for trying to take down the cubes and we boycott dayan for copying a part of the design.


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## Dene (Dec 17, 2010)

HavoCentral said:


> I'm not the only person commenting on this incident and I would be happy to wait, but it is unknown if and when any facts or valid points are to be officially released.


 
So you admit yourself that you don't know anything yet you still demand that the "ruling overturned". You make obscenely false claims such as "V-Cube is notorious for taking good cubes off the market for because they are doing well" that are not only damaging to their reputation, but are said despite your own acknowledgement that you don't know what is going on. 

You're just being a young and immature twat. Time to grow up and join the real world.


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## HavoCentral (Dec 17, 2010)

Dene said:


> So you admit yourself that you don't know anything yet you still demand that the "ruling overturned". You make obscenely false claims such as "V-Cube is notorious for taking good cubes off the market for because they are doing well" that are not only damaging to their reputation, but are said despite your own acknowledgement that you don't know what is going on.
> 
> You're just being a young and immature twat. Time to grow up and join the real world.



First off, I would like to inform you that flaming is against forum rules.
Second, Im not young. And third, I do know what is going on.
V-Cube contacted Ebay and had them remove guhongs from auctions on patent infringement claims.


Pixel 6 said:


> Here's what I got from eBay that kind of started it all...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

As well as contacting private shops, according to one of these shops, V-Cube claims the guhongs corners infringe on the corners of the V5. Video - 30 seconds in.

What I meant is when V-Cube themselves releases an official statement about what is happening.

Obscenely false claims? Maru 4x4 - gone Chinese 6b - Gone


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## TheMachanga (Dec 17, 2010)

I guess I'm the first to say.

I didn't sign.

EDIT: lol, I read some of the signatures. They remind me of those pop music fans that always say, "your juz jelous, hater!!!1".


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## HavoCentral (Dec 17, 2010)

you didn't, but 175 have. lol 

I respect your opinion and agree that most of the comments are the same.


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## Stefan (Dec 17, 2010)

Yes, this thing does have issues (grammar, wrong claims, not being a petition), but let's just take it as what it is - an expression of the confusion and anger that Verdes/Pantazis have created.



EnterPseudonym said:


> dayan for copying a part of the design.



How do you know he copied it and didn't independently come up with it?


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## Whyusosrs? (Dec 17, 2010)

HavoCentral said:


> I'm not the only person commenting on this incident and I would be happy to wait, but it is unknown if and when any facts or valid points are to be officially released.


 
Please read this:



Dene said:


> You're just being a young and immature twat. Time to grow up and join the real world.


 


HavoCentral said:


> First off, I would like to inform you that flaming is against forum rules.



Stupidity should be against the rules. 



> Second, Im not young.



You look MAYBE 17 in your picture. OMGWTFBBQ THAT IS SO OLD. DID THEY HAVE FIRE BACK THEN?!?!



> And third, I do know what is going on.



No, you don't know what's going on. You heard from someone what has happened so now you start a poorly written petition which doesn't even look serious enough to make a company recall cribs that kill babies.

You try so desperately to "fit in" but all you're doing is annoying me and other members. Please, stop trying to act intelligent, it's making me angsty.

[/rant]


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## HavoCentral (Dec 17, 2010)

I'm 20.
And by your logic, no one knows what is going on except a handful of people, since everyone heard it from someone else.
And how do most people find out things, by hearing other people talk about it.
So if I hear something happened on the news, does that mean I don't know what is happening since I heard it from someone?

And I have admitted the petition is poorly written, but the petition also isn't an official petition.
It was originally meant to get the ruling overturned, but now its more about seeing how many people are against the ruling in general, and how badly this has affected V-Cubes future sales.


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## Whyusosrs? (Dec 17, 2010)

HavoCentral said:


> I'm 20.



I was right! They didn't have fire back then! You old, bro.



> And by your logic, no one knows what is going on except a handful of people, since everyone heard it from someone else.


Yep.



> And how do most people find out things, by hearing other people talk about it.


Yep. Have you ever played the game telephone? Basically you tell something to one person and then they tell the next person etc. etc. by the end of the line the message is so different. My point, bashing a company based on information that you have read/heard is not reliable.



> So if I hear something happened on the news, does that mean I don't know what is happening since I heard it from someone?


Yep. Since when has the news been consistently reliable?



> get the ruling overturned



Objection, your honor!



> how badly this has affected V-Cubes future sales.



I'll bet you 75% of the people who said they would boycott v-cube sales say that now. But as soon as they want a 7x7x7, they'll run straight to v-cubes. Of the remaining 25% who said they would boycott, 15% already have plenty of v-cubes and so boycotting is no big deal.


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## uberCuber (Dec 17, 2010)

haters gonna hate


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## gravityjoe35 (Dec 17, 2010)

*GuHong/LingYun Patent vs V-cubes*

Dear Friends,

I have just read and signed the online petition:

"Verdes Vs Dayan"

hosted on the web by PetitionOnline.com, the free online petition
service, at:

http://www.PetitionOnline.com/VeVsDa/

I personally agree with what this petition says, and I think you might
agree, too. If you can spare a moment, please take a look, and consider
signing yourself. We can bring these 2 top speedcubes back to the market so please take a moment to sign.

Best wishes,

Skylar Neilsen


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## Kirjava (Dec 17, 2010)

WHAT THE HELL WHEN DID THIS HAPPEN?!?!?1?!


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## HavoCentral (Dec 18, 2010)

Whyusosrs? said:


> Yep. Have you ever played the game telephone? Basically you tell something to one person and then they tell the next person etc. etc. by the end of the line the message is so different. My point, bashing a company based on information that you have read/heard is not reliable.



Yes.

Verdes - Ebay - Pixel - SS forum. and it was a letter, so not much to get twisted.

To the extent of my knowledge, the game only applies to word of mouth.



Whyusosrs? said:


> Yep. Since when has the news been consistently reliable?



I don't know, always. Its the news, if they say something false they are obligated to respond with a truthful story.

There is a word for this, but atm it eludes me.



Kirjava said:


> WHAT THE HELL WHEN DID THIS HAPPEN?!?!?1?!



 I think from reading your posts that you have been following along since it started last night. lol


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## cmhardw (Dec 18, 2010)

This thread will remain open for discussion about the petition ONLY in regards to V-Cube's recent actions toward the GuHong brand cube. Any continuation of the arguing from the previous thread will result in an immediate 1 day ban and a deletion of the offending post.


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## kdawg123 (Dec 18, 2010)

I signed. Just paying my contribution to society. Maybe...


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## The Bloody Talon (Dec 18, 2010)

i ordered guhong and maybe it will arrive 2weeks from now,,
but i think i won't sign...


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## CubesOfTheWorld (Dec 18, 2010)

I signed the petition yesterday. I saw the link in a youtube comment.


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## HavoCentral (Dec 18, 2010)

CubesOfTheWorld said:


> I signed the petition yesterday. I saw the link in a youtube comment.


 
Hrmm, really? link to video perhaps?


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## cmhardw (Dec 18, 2010)

Two people have already been banned for not following my warning given in this thread. Be advised.


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## HavoCentral (Dec 18, 2010)

*WOOT WOOT*

200 SIGNATURES!!!
Congrats giraffemonkey!!

And Felix König, if you read this, get your 600+ cubing community to sign the petition as well.


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## Sin-H (Dec 18, 2010)

HavoCentral said:


> 200 SIGNATURES!!!
> Congrats giraffemonkey!!
> 
> And Felix König, if you read this, get your 600+ cubing community to sign the petition as well.


we've already spreaded it on the 1200+ cubing community of speedcubers.de, of which most are also at the 600+ cubing community of speedcube.de

Still needs moar spreading, though!


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## HavoCentral (Dec 18, 2010)

I honestly did not expect it to do this well.
At this point I see 500 as a reasonable goal for the weekend, and 1000+ possibly for the month.

We need people with a lot of influence to help spread the word.


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## Pixel 6 (Dec 18, 2010)

Is there a way to implement a poll onto this thread? That would be a good way I think for people to say their part with a bit of anonymity if signing the poll is beyond their interest.

I have signed.

- Pixel -


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## HavoCentral (Dec 18, 2010)

A poll like, Are you boycotting V-Cubes prducts from now on? Yes or No


Sound good?

and how do I add a poll.


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## Igora (Dec 18, 2010)

Pixel 6 said:


> Is there a way to implement a poll onto this thread? That would be a good way I think for people to say their part with a bit of anonymity if signing the poll is beyond their interest.
> 
> I have signed.
> 
> - Pixel -



I agree, the poll should have 3 options: 1 for the petition, 1 against, and 1 on the fence (just for numbers). I do sort of agree with the poll, but I do not wish to have my hypothetical signature on it.


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## Pixel 6 (Dec 18, 2010)

5 would be a good way to go.

I agree with Verdes. I will buy their cubes.
I agree with Verdes. I will not buy their cubes.
I neither agree, nor disagree
I disagree with Verdes. I will buy their cubes.
I disagree with Verdes. I will not buy their cubes

or something like that?


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## RyanO (Dec 18, 2010)

A poll on whether or not you're for the petition is silly. That's what the petition is for.


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## HavoCentral (Dec 18, 2010)

I agree with V-Cube and will continue to purchase their products.
I agree with V-Cube but have no plans of purchasing their products
I neither agree, nor disagree
I disagree with V-Cube but I will still purchase their products.
I disagree with V-Cube and will not be purchasing any of their products.

Better?

and again, How do I add a poll?
Just in case I cant figure it out.


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## KYLOL (Dec 18, 2010)

A few years ago people were dreaming of cubes beyond 5x5x5, and Verdes set out to deliver them to us. I remember reading through all of the posts about how they were short on money and went through a hurricane of **** to get these cubes to the community. To see these spoiled little brats flooding the speed-cubing community and betraying V-cubes is just ridiculous. I clicked on the comments section of the petition and just saw a flurry of choppy sentences. It looked like a mixture of a seven year old blind child and a snail with down syndrome trying to type out their rage all at once. It's very clear that there is a twelvie army of parents'-credit-card-using kids who really want cubes and they don't care about V-cubes as a company that has been tied in with the community for years. On behalf of the bomb droppin', homie clappin' domin' kids, STRAIGHT homies - FLIP YOU KIDS. FLIP YOU. To Chris or any other admin who is about to ban me - If you are sick of forum drama, then ban the twelvie army who dump their idiocy in here day in and day out. I see no reason to "get along" with people who are actively destroying the community. - <3 always, from the bottom of my glass of chocolate milk.


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## cuber576 (Dec 18, 2010)

HavoCentral said:


> How do I add a poll?


Edit your own thread by hovering on thread tools and click "Add a poll to this thread" on the top right corner of your screen when you are viewing the thread


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## kskinnerx9 (Dec 18, 2010)

i was 193 a few hours ago hope this works


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## CubesOfTheWorld (Dec 18, 2010)

KYLOL said:


> A few years ago people were dreaming of cubes beyond 5x5x5, and Verdes set out to deliver them to us. I remember reading through all of the posts about how they were short on money and went through a hurricane of **** to get these cubes to the community. To see these spoiled little brats flooding the speed-cubing community and betraying V-cubes is just ridiculous. I clicked on the comments section of the petition and just saw a flurry of choppy sentences. It looked like a mixture of a seven year old blind child and a snail with down syndrome trying to type out their rage all at once. It's very clear that there is a twelvie army of parents'-credit-card-using kids who really want cubes and they don't care about V-cubes as a company that has been tied in with the community for years. On behalf of the bomb droppin', homie clappin' domin' kids, STRAIGHT homies - FLIP YOU KIDS. FLIP YOU. To Chris or any other admin who is about to ban me - If you are sick of forum drama, then ban the twelvie army who dump their idiocy in here day in and day out. I see no reason to "get along" with people who are actively destroying the community. - <3 always, from the bottom of my glass of chocolate milk.


 
What?


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## HavoCentral (Dec 18, 2010)

CubesOfTheWorld said:


> What?


 
Exactly what I said, and I read it at least three times. and got even more confused each time.






Poll added.


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## cmhardw (Dec 18, 2010)

@KYLOL
As long as discussion in this thread is related to the petition ONLY, and it is civil, then I see no reason to ban anyone. Tread carefully.


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## KYLOL (Dec 18, 2010)

Chris, you've been around for SO long. Boycott V-cubes? Seriously? I know you're a nice guy that doesn't like forum drama, but some backhands need to be dealt. Also, Pro-tip for kids pretending to be confused by my post. Welcome to the Internet, my name is KYLOL.


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## Zarxrax (Dec 18, 2010)

It is true that v-cubes have done some good things for the community. I wont deny that. But that is irrelevant to this case, and that is why I choose to sign this petition, and why I choose to boycott their products. When a preacher is arrested for molesting a little boy, you don't say "oh, but he has done so many good things for people! we should ignore this crime!" Whatever has happened in the past has no bearing on what is happening NOW.


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## EVH (Dec 18, 2010)

I'm not putting my name on that petition, the grammar is too badfp), it is kind of embarrassing to have one's name on something that was so carelessly written.

Anyway we should definitely get more facts before we start boycotting and signing petitions. I will wait it out, I think everyone else should do same.


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## Narraeson (Dec 18, 2010)

263rd. Jussayin'.


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## HavoCentral (Dec 18, 2010)

WE need someone to get Faz to rally all the aussies.


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## y3k9 (Dec 18, 2010)

I say everyone petition at the next comps they go to. This is stupid. V-cube might be cool, and may have pioneered a great design but they fact that they make a 3x3x3 banned is stupid!!! V-cube has nothing to do with 3x3x3's, all they do is make over priced big cubes. THIS IS OUTRAGEOUS, BOYCOTT.


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## Fire Cuber (Dec 18, 2010)

hmm, when i just clicked "View Current Signatures", it says there is an error. I am wandering how much people had already signed.


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## ariasamie (Dec 18, 2010)

Fire Cuber said:


> hmm, when i just clicked "View Current Signatures", it says there is an error. I am wandering how much people had already signed.


 
there is no error for me.
http://www.petitiononline.com/mod_perl/signed.cgi?VeVsDa
314 Total Signatures.


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## Fire Cuber (Dec 18, 2010)

ariasamie said:


> there is no error for me.
> http://www.petitiononline.com/mod_perl/signed.cgi?VeVsDa
> 314 Total Signatures.


 
Okay, they fix it


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## tertius (Dec 18, 2010)

HavoCentral said:


> I don't know, always. Its the news, if they say something false they are obligated to respond with a truthful story.



The Media gets it wrong a lot, if not nearly every time. They have point A and point Z, they fill in the rest. Sometimes A and Z are close together and they get it right. Other times A and Z are at extremes and they are WAY off. Don't let them fool you too long or on significant issues. You need multiple, credible sources to be as sure as possible. 

This applies to all things, not just the _tiny_ world of cubing.


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## qqwref (Dec 18, 2010)

I'm against the action V-Cubes took - until I hear some credible further news, in which case I might change my mind. But I'm not signing a petition, or at least not this one. I don't think the actions of V-Cubes are going to be decided by a bunch of signatures.


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## avgdi (Dec 18, 2010)

qqwref said:


> I'm against the action V-Cubes took - until I hear some credible further news, in which case I might change my mind. But I'm not signing a petition, or at least not this one. I don't think the actions of V-Cubes are going to be decided by a bunch of signatures.



I completely agree with you.
I'm not going to sign the petition until I've heard all the facts...


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## PhillipEspinoza (Dec 18, 2010)

C'mon guys, it's not like the petition is actually a contract or something. It's not set in stone. Just sign it. I see it as more of a signature in support of the Cubing Community anyway. And like you all said, it's not like it'll actually influence V-Cube's actions, but if it does, hey.


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## avgdi (Dec 18, 2010)

I just don't see the point in signing a petition before I've heard both sides of the story.
My signature is just... pending.


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## gasmus (Dec 18, 2010)

I think in this case the spelling mistakes/bad grammar don't matter _*as*_ much since whoever signs is still a part of the Vcube market. As long as they know that people are not happy with them it will still (hopefully) have an effect.

I don't care if the GuHong *is* infringement of vcubes' patents, in my mind its still wrong to do this to a community like ours.


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## Fire Cuber (Dec 18, 2010)

Rowan Kinneavy has signed!!


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## Wassaren (Dec 18, 2010)

HavoCentral said:


> You can find the Petition Here
> 
> As of right now we are almost at one hundred, lets try for two by the end of the weekend.
> 
> ...


 
Donovan Cline	Owner of Lubix Cube - Creator of the ULTIMATE Lubix GuHong - World Record Cube


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## joey (Dec 18, 2010)

The WR was not set on one of those cubes, it was set on a normal Guhong.


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## Yes We Can! (Dec 18, 2010)

HavoCentral said:


> **Only the names I recognize, If a famous cuber signed and I missed it let me know



Famous is relative.


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## TimMc (Dec 18, 2010)

What is the *V-Cubes claim*? You do realise that they're known as *VERDES Innovations S.A.* don't you?

I would cast a vote but your question is ambiguous. The petition doesn't make sense and is full of errors too.

If you want to see how many people will vote in favor of Dayan compared to Verdes then put a poll up on mf8!

Dayan, Verdes and Seven Towns have a right to protect their patents, trademarks, and copyright. If they're not protected in certain countries then they wont be able to export and sell them there easily. Surely you already know that there are products coming out of China that violate patents and trademarks of others so that they can make some money as knock-off companies. I wont put Dayan in that category as I'm not a lawyer.

Why do you want to boycott Verdes so much without even having the facts present?

I'm a big fan of Dayan and Verdes for supporting the speedcubing community. I wish them no harm. Do you? Seriously?

Tim.


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## Stefan (Dec 18, 2010)

PhillipEspinoza said:


> Just sign it. I see it as more of a signature in support of the Cubing Community anyway.



Well like you said, that's how *you* see it. That's not at all what it says, and some just don't "see" it that way.



TimMc said:


> What is the *V-Cubes claim*? You do realise that they're known as *VERDES Innovations S.A.* don't you?


 
You really think they're known as _"VERDES Innovations S.A."_? I didn't, I know them as _"Verdes"_ or _"V-Cubes"_ and didn't know _"VERDES Innovations S.A."_ at all before this, and I suspect that's true for most of us.


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## LearningCode (Dec 18, 2010)

It's true of me!
I only knew them as Verdes Innovations S.A. when I went to search the company's name.

I think this petition should be more like:
Until Verdes Innovations S.A. makes their reasons for *Insert action here* known to the cubing community, we will not support their company.


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## CubesOfTheWorld (Dec 18, 2010)

Signed and voted for disagreeing with Verdes and not buying their products.


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## Fire Cuber (Dec 18, 2010)

Wow, look at this

7th in the most popular petition!



TimMc said:


> Verdes for supporting the speedcubing community.


 
Is that really true?


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## Julian (Dec 18, 2010)

Fire Cuber said:


> Wow, look at this
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I can't see what that says.


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## Kurbitur (Dec 18, 2010)

One thought here, anyone know if it would be hard to make the V3, i'm talking about just 1. We got the blueprints and everything online so would be cool if someone could make it if it's possible just to see if it functional and competive to the gunhong.


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## CubesOfTheWorld (Dec 18, 2010)

KYLOL said:


> Chris, you've been around for SO long. Boycott V-cubes? Seriously? I know you're a nice guy that doesn't like forum drama, but some backhands need to be dealt. Also, Pro-tip for kids pretending to be confused by my post. Welcome to the Internet, my name is KYLOL.


 
My imagination is too limited for me to be pretending. You just need to calm down.


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## TheJCube (Dec 18, 2010)

Jeffrey Wang from iCubeMart signed it


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## BigSams (Dec 18, 2010)

Kurbitur said:


> One thought here, anyone know if it would be hard to make the V3, i'm talking about just 1. We got the blueprints and everything online so would be cool if someone could make it if it's possible just to see if it functional and competive to the gunhong.


 
I can't find the link but I remember that someone made a meh home-made version a while back. It was black and crappy-looking. Seemed like rough turning. But a factory machine-made version would be better. Anyone have the link? I'm pretty sure there was a video.


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## Kirjava (Dec 18, 2010)

inb4 friction


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## Slash (Dec 18, 2010)

Τσάρος Βερδες said:


>


 
If this is what I think is, than it looks nothing like Dayan cubes.


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## CubesOfTheWorld (Dec 18, 2010)

The cubes are completely different.


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## uberCuber (Dec 18, 2010)

and now he edits the picture out of his post when he realizes what he just did...


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## Quadrescence (Dec 18, 2010)

_Mr. Panagiotis Verdes_
​ It must have been 6 years ago when NEWCUBES posted on the TwistyPuzzles forum, something many of you may not know even exists.

The statement made was bold. There was a link to a website, olympicubes.com, with CGI of 2x2 through 11x11, with specifications and such.

Many were skeptical.

I remember with utter clarity the ambition people had to design and materialize 6x6x6 and higher cubes. I recall one person successfully making a 7x7x7 by extending a 3x3x3, but the design was not very solid. Successful nonetheless, and it was huge news! Pochmann also had designs, I believe he had a "pin" design. I think a few others did too.

Skepticism rose significantly when only promises were made by Mr. Verdes but nothing showed for the next several years. I think I can accurately say that most people lost hope in it.

Then Verdes came back with promises fulfilled. He successfully made the cubes. Not only that, he made them well. After lots of due hype, they were finally being shipped out. I bought one of each, and even made an unboxing and review. I was extremely excited, more excited than my first sub-60 on a 3x3.

I didn't care if they were going to turn like ****. I'd be happiest if they at least worked. But to my surprise, Verdes not only made the cubes, but they were a delight to turn. They were wonderful.

Those 6+ years of hard work really paid off. The design was novel, and inspired (iirc) designs for the teraminx and stuff.

Now, we have nice 3x3s made by other people. If Dayan's cubes use the design Verdes invented up to affine transformation, then Verdes has every right to pursue legal action. Verdes worked hard. If I were him, I'd do the same.

I do admit I am *not* an expert on Dayan cubes nor their design. So I am not necessarily saying Verdes is right. But I am saying that *if* his designs were used in the 3x3 Dayan manufactures, as specified *not by the pictures in Verdes' patent, but by the mathematical descriptions*, then Verdes should triumph.

To all of you 14 year old pretend-experts on law, patents, and cube design, I hope you keep your mouth shut until you get your facts straight. I also hope you people don't just mindlessly boycott Verdes just because he is taking action against a product you might like.

I think 6 years ago, any sane person would trade every one of their 3x3s for a single 7x7. But most newcomers seem to not fully realize what Verdes introduced to the world, so they will easily reject his work, so long as they still have their 7x7 their mom bought them.


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## Quadrescence (Dec 18, 2010)

uberCuber said:


> and now he edits the picture out of his post when he realizes what he just did...


 
I doubt he wants to hear a forum full of people saying "OMG HIS CUBE DOES NOT LOOK EXACTLY THE SAME AS THE DAYAN WTF!!!!! BOYCOTT BOYCOTT", missing the point entirely. Just sayin


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## TimMc (Dec 18, 2010)

Stefan said:


> You really think they're known as _"VERDES Innovations S.A."_?



I agree that they're probably more commmonly known as Verdes when referring to the company but calling them V-Cubes seems a bit strange, especially when trying to create a petition. It's like saying Rubik's when referring to Seven Towns. Although the Rubik's brand tends to be confused with other DIYs these days...



Fire Cuber said:


> Is that really true?



The fact that their inventions have provided more challenges for the twisty puzzle community, have enabled faster world records to be set, and they continually provide V-CUBE products as prizes for WCA competitions should be some indication that they support the speedcubing community.

The same can be said about Dayan.

Tim.


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## The Bloody Talon (Dec 18, 2010)

Quadrescence said:


> To all of you 14 year old pretend-experts on law, patents, and cube design, I hope you keep your mouth shut until you get your facts straight. I also hope you people don't just mindlessly boycott Verdes just because he is taking action against a product you might like.


 
this.


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## Meep (Dec 18, 2010)

Quadrescence said:


> To all of you 14 year old pretend-experts on law, patents, and cube design, I hope you keep your mouth shut until you get your facts straight. I also hope you people don't just mindlessly boycott Verdes just because he is taking action against a product you might like.



Omg <333


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## Stefan (Dec 18, 2010)

Quadrescence said:


> It must have been 6 years ago when NEWCUBES posted on the TwistyPuzzles forum, something many of you may not know even exists.



First I believe about 7.5 years ago in emails:
http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/speedsolvingrubikscube/message/5194


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## HavoCentral (Dec 19, 2010)

Connor Glenn is signature number 500!!!!


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## Quadrescence (Dec 19, 2010)

Stefan said:


> First I believe about 7.5 years ago in emails:
> http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/speedsolvingrubikscube/message/5194


 
Oh yes, I forgot about Yahoo groups. Thanks for that.


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## uberCuber (Dec 19, 2010)

Quadrescence said:


> 2x2-*11x22*.


 
I have seen no such thing.


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## HavoCentral (Dec 19, 2010)

uberCuber said:


> I have seen no such thing.


 
Doesn't Oskar have a 2x2x20ish?
I forgot the exact size.

EDIT:2x2x23


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## CubesOfTheWorld (Dec 19, 2010)

HavoCentral said:


> Doesn't Oskar have a 2x2x20ish?
> I forgot the exact size.


 
Cooldayr is making a 2x2x20 or something like that. I saw it at nationals.


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## souljahsu (Dec 19, 2010)

<.< I made an avatar for this.

Sorry it's kind of small, I can't figure out how to enlarge it.

anyway it says "We are not a cube-making company, but a cube-suing company."


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## JustinJ (Dec 19, 2010)

uberCuber said:


> I have seen no such thing.


 
It really annoys me that you would focus on such an insignificant little mistake rather than the stuff he points out.



souljahsu said:


> <.< I made an avatar for this.
> 
> Sorry it's kind of small, I can't figure out how to enlarge it.
> 
> anyway it says "We are not a cube-making company, but a cube-suing company."



Are you actually serious? Have you forgotten all the good that V-Cubes has done for speedcubing?


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## souljahsu (Dec 19, 2010)

JustinJ said:


> It really annoys me that you would focus on such an insignificant little mistake rather than the stuff he points out.
> 
> 
> 
> Are you actually serious? Have you forgotten all the good that V-Cubes has done for speedcubing?


 
Sorry I actually don't know what good V-Cubes did to speedcubing. I only started cubing earlier this year.

Can someone tell me?


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## Whyusosrs? (Dec 19, 2010)

souljahsu said:


> <.< I made an avatar for this.
> 
> Sorry it's kind of small, I can't figure out how to enlarge it.
> 
> anyway it says "We are not a cube-making company, but a cube-suing company."


 

Erm. ERM.

They make cubes, mang. Their 7x7 is still considered very good. Verdes was one of (if not the first) to pillow a cube. I disagree with the supposed removal of guhong sales on ebay, but you guys are really taking this too far.


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## Whyusosrs? (Dec 19, 2010)

I'm sorry for the double post, but this is needed.



souljahsu said:


> Sorry I actually don't know what good V-Cubes did to speedcubing. I only started cubing earlier this year.
> 
> Can someone tell me?



YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW WHAT V-CUBES HAS DONE BUT YOU WILL PUBLICLY BASH THEM? Please, please, please, read this post.



Quadrescence said:


> View attachment 1385
> _Mr. Panagiotis Verdes_
> ​ It must have been 6 years ago when NEWCUBES posted on the TwistyPuzzles forum, something many of you may not know even exists.
> 
> ...


 
Do you understand now? Verdes made high-order cubes possible and mass-produced them.


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## Meep (Dec 19, 2010)

souljahsu said:


> Sorry I actually don't know what good V-Cubes did to speedcubing. I only started cubing earlier this year.
> 
> Can someone tell me?



They're the reason we have the pretty darn good 5x5s, 6x6s, and 7x7s we have today. Previously, we had crappy 5x5s, and pretty much no 6x6s and 7x7s.


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## HavoCentral (Dec 19, 2010)

Slash said:


> If this is what I think is, than it looks nothing like Dayan cubes.


 
I honestly do not see how that could be a good cube. The way the centers overlap the corners has to limit corner cutting a lot. :/


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## Meep (Dec 19, 2010)

HavoCentral said:


> I honestly do not see how that could be a good cube. The way the centers overlap the corners has to limit corner cutting a lot. :/


 
Look at how the V5 mechanism works.


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## HavoCentral (Dec 19, 2010)

Meep said:


> Look at how the V5 mechanism works.


 
I have a YJ 5, and the outer corners cut well but to cut double double, is hard. Like a Uu(1 cubie turn) Rr cut.


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## ~Adam~ (Dec 19, 2010)

If you cut like that on the V you can get pretty bad lock up, but more like layers overlapping each other and nothing can move.


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## Godmil (Dec 19, 2010)

I have a concern that the petition may not represent the opinion of the majority of signers.
I was under the impression that most people on these boards were generally against knock offs, that they had no problem with Verdes trying to protect their design against companies like YJ... And that the reason most people are upset is that they don't agree that Dayan are using the V-cube design, so it is unjust to block their sale.
Does that sound about right?
Now, my concern is with the viewpoint the petition writer has pushed in there... HavoCentral has made it clear in other posts that he completely supports knock offs in all cube sizes, and that V-cube has no right at all to protect their patent. Which is 'clearly' seen in this line from the petition: "V-Cube is notorious for taking good cubes off the market for because they are doing well." To me that reads like V-cube have no right to protect even their 7x7 design, and their attempts to protect them are purely malicious.
Is that really the opinion of everyone who's signed it... Or have they just signed this because it's the only place they feel they can vent their frustration on the Guhong incident?
Personally I think a new and better worded petition should be started.


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## CubesOfTheWorld (Dec 19, 2010)

Verdes makes very high quality cubes with a good, original mechanism. I just think that they should at least make the V-Cube 3 before they take away one of the greatest (if not the greatest) speedcubes on the market. I don't even think that the GuHong corner is similar enough to the V-Cube corner piece. The fact that it comes in separate parts and that there is a stalk on it doesn't make it similar enough to the V-Cube corner. I'm nearly positive that the owner of DaYan looked at the V-Cube corner and tried to replicate that into a 3x3, while trying to evade the copyright infringement.


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## Meep (Dec 19, 2010)

HavoCentral said:


> I have a YJ 5, and the outer corners cut well but to cut double double, is hard. Like a Uu(1 cubie turn) Rr cut.


 
From my experience with the YJ 5, the springs are horrible and affect the tolerance of it.



cube-o-holic said:


> If you cut like that on the V you can get pretty bad lock up, but more like layers overlapping each other and nothing can move.


 
The reason that crazy lockup is possible is because it -can- do said cutting, but the extra layers get caught. The V3 wouldn't have these extra layers.


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## ~Adam~ (Dec 19, 2010)

Godmil said:


> I have a concern that the petition may not represent the opinion of the majority of signers.
> I was under the impression that most people on these boards were generally against knock offs, that they had no problem with Verdes trying to protect their design against companies like YJ... And *that the reason most people are upset is that they don't agree that Dayan are using the V-cube design, so it is unjust to block their sale.
> Does that sound about right?*
> Now, my concern is with the viewpoint the petition writer has pushed in there... HavoCentral has made it clear in other posts that he completely supports knock offs in all cube sizes, and that V-cube has no right at all to protect their patent. Which is 'clearly' seen in this line from the petition: "V-Cube is notorious for taking good cubes off the market for because they are doing well." To me that reads like V-cube have no right to protect even their 7x7 design, and their attempts to protect them are purely malicious.
> ...



I'm completely in agreement with the 1st bold sentence.

I for one own a YJ 5 but it was only because it was so cheap and I was annoyed that shipping from V was 50% of the cost of the cube. Shortly after I ordered another V-5 (I already had one) from PUZL which arrived the next day and cheaper than it would've been from Greece.
I bought the YJ 4 with every intention of getting a V-4 when it was released (until this happened).
I wouldn't say that I support KOs because buying them is in no way going to effect my spending on the 'original' puzzles.

I completely agree that a new petition needs to be started which conveys the view and the signers (?) better.


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## Shortey (Dec 19, 2010)

woohoo im famous


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## Godmil (Dec 19, 2010)

I'm also a little sceptical of the list of notable cubers in the OP... Clearly designed to give credibility to the list, yet consisting of many names of people who have financial interests in this event. :/


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## Ethan Rosen (Dec 19, 2010)

KYLOL said:


> A few years ago people were dreaming of cubes beyond 5x5x5, and Verdes set out to deliver them to us. I remember reading through all of the posts about how they were short on money and went through a hurricane of **** to get these cubes to the community. To see these spoiled little brats flooding the speed-cubing community and betraying V-cubes is just ridiculous. I clicked on the comments section of the petition and just saw a flurry of choppy sentences. It looked like a mixture of a seven year old blind child and a snail with down syndrome trying to type out their rage all at once. It's very clear that there is a twelvie army of parents'-credit-card-using kids who really want cubes and they don't care about V-cubes as a company that has been tied in with the community for years. On behalf of the bomb droppin', homie clappin' domin' kids, STRAIGHT homies - FLIP YOU KIDS. FLIP YOU. To Chris or any other admin who is about to ban me - If you are sick of forum drama, then ban the twelvie army who dump their idiocy in here day in and day out. I see no reason to "get along" with people who are actively destroying the community. - <3 always, from the bottom of my glass of chocolate milk.


 
I agree with this sentiment 100%. These kids all forget the immense struggle that the Verdes family went through to even get onto the market. MY heart goes out to every inventor who will not be able to invest in their designs because of children who knowingly buy and support knockoff products.

And just to ensure that I am on topic, the above is why I refuse to sign that disgustingly ignorant "petition."


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## Sa967St (Dec 19, 2010)

souljahsu said:


> Sorry I actually don't know what good V-Cubes did to speedcubing. I only started cubing earlier this year.
> 
> Can someone tell me?


The 5x5x5 world record cube before the V Cube-5 came out was the Rubik's brand 5x5x5.


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## CubesOfTheWorld (Dec 19, 2010)

Sa967St said:


> The 5x5x5 world record cube before the V Cube-5 came out was the Rubik's brand 5x5x5.


 
The cubing world was like Thom's pants back then...


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## Godmil (Dec 19, 2010)

I'd like to quickly explain why I'm not going to sign this. Firstly I love my Guhong, it's my main cube and I really believe I'm several seconds slower with anything else. I also agree with the principle of protecting patents and feel Verdes have every right to prevent Knock Offs entering the market. I have no idea if the Guhong really does rip-off the V-cube design, I'd guess it is inspired by it, but I'd hope it shows significant developments that make it unique and not a patent violation. However, I completely understand why Verdes would want to do this.

A lot of people are confused why Verdes would try to protect their 3x3 design when they're not (currently) in the 3x3 market. The answer is simple and hasn't been mentioned on the forums yet. If Verdes doesn't take steps to protect their patent (which covers 2x2 to 11x11) then it weakens it. Letting any patent violation pass un challenged will make any future claims harder to justify in court. So if they feel their patent is being violated (even if some people don't agree with it) they HAVE to take action in order to protect the patent - and essentially their whole business.


----------



## HavoCentral (Dec 19, 2010)

I complete support V-Cube in fighting the V5-V7, but as of today, they have not done anything to stop KOs from being produced. They have only stopped production of puzzles they have yet to produce. The reason I support the KOs, is because if they can produce quality puzzles, why cant V-Cube? especially since they have had the designs for years.

Back when I first got my Maru 4, I purchased it because I heard it was the best 4x4 available at the time. If a V4 had been available, and just as good, I would have considered purchasing it. While the maru is based on the V mech, It has many differences, such as screw spring, different corners, different hidden edge pieces, a premodded core piece, and an entirely different core than the V4s designs shown.
I have a YJ 5 because I do not feel like purchasing a V5 and having to mod it in order to be able to adjust the tension. To me that is the biggest design flaw in the V-Cubes line.

And if someone wants another petition made, then start it. and I will add it to the first post.

All 3x3s are technically KOs of the original, even the V3. There are more similarities between the V3 and the original rubiks, than there are between the guhong and any other cube. V-Cube isnt claiming the guhong is a copy of their V3, from the information I have read, they are claiming the the guhongs corner is a copy of the V5s corner, since it has a corner stock.


----------



## Ethan Rosen (Dec 19, 2010)

CubesOfTheWorld said:


> The cubing world was like Thom's pants back then...



You are clearly completely ignorant of the impact that the Verdes family has had on both speedcubing and puzzle design. The concept for the design is as important as the puzzles themselves When children ignorant of the situation like yourself keep thinking about nobody but themselves, everyone suffers except for a few sweatshop operators in China.


----------



## ~Adam~ (Dec 19, 2010)

If Verdes wants to clear things up they could easily post exactly why they believe the GuHong infringes upon their patent.
It would do nothing but good for the name of the company. The fact that they haven't is more than a little suspicious.
They must know about the controversy this has caused by now.

It could be a blatantly obvious breach of their patent which nobody seems to be aware of.
If this is the case then I think the vast majority of us would agree that they are perfectly within their rights to do what they're doing.


----------



## Ethan Rosen (Dec 19, 2010)

HavoCentral said:


> The reason I support the KOs, is because if they can produce quality puzzles, why cant V-Cube? especially since they have had the designs for years.



Gee, I dunno. Could it maybe have anything to do with the fact that the startup costs the Verdes family had to pay may be just a wee bit higher than a Chinese sweatshop owner has to pay when he steals a design?


----------



## izovire (Dec 19, 2010)

Godmil said:


> I'd like to quickly explain why I'm not going to sign this. Firstly I love my Guhong, it's my main cube and I really believe I'm several seconds slower with anything else. I also agree with the principle of protecting patents and feel Verdes have every right to prevent Knock Offs entering the market. I have no idea if the Guhong really does rip-off the V-cube design, I'd guess it is inspired by it, but I'd hope it shows significant developments that make it unique and not a patent violation. However, I completely understand why Verdes would want to do this.
> 
> A lot of people are confused why Verdes would try to protect their 3x3 design when they're not (currently) in the 3x3 market. The answer is simple and hasn't been mentioned on the forums yet. If Verdes doesn't take steps to protect their patent (which covers 2x2 to 11x11) then it weakens it. Letting any patent violation pass un challenged will make any future claims harder to justify in court. So if they feel their patent is being violated (even if some people don't agree with it) they HAVE to take action in order to protect the patent - and essentially their whole business.


 
This is why I'm not signing the petition either... I still think this issue needs to be cleared up in court somehow... the petition seems... immature. 

This is a case that needs a professional to look at.


----------



## Ethan Rosen (Dec 19, 2010)

cube-o-holic said:


> If Verdes wants to clear things up they could easily post exactly why they believe the GuHong infringes upon their patent.
> It would do nothing but good for the name of the company. The fact that they haven't is more than a little suspicious.
> They must know about the controversy this has caused by now.
> 
> ...


 
When was the last time you heard of any company publicly releasing information on a company they are pursuing legal action against? It wouldn't at all be in their favor (and would probably be downright illegal) to post sensitive legal information.


----------



## ~Adam~ (Dec 19, 2010)

Ethan Rosen said:


> When was the last time you heard of any company publicly releasing information on a company they are pursuing legal action against? It wouldn't at all be in their favor (and would probably be downright illegal) to post sensitive legal information.



If it's in the company's best financial interests then why wouldn't they?
It would be in their favour if they are clearly in the right and I'm sure it wouldn't be illegal.


----------



## HavoCentral (Dec 19, 2010)

Ethan Rosen said:


> Gee, I dunno. Could it maybe have anything to do with the fact that the startup costs the Verdes family had to pay may be just a wee bit higher than a Chinese sweatshop owner has to pay when he steals a design?


 
Not everything in china is made in sweatshops.I would consider that stereotyping and racism.

And yes, it costs a lot, I realize that. But with the price they charge for their products, I am sure they can afford it. Look at Mefferts and how often they release new puzzles.

If I were V-Cube, Instead of releasing a puzzle in January, I would have released it a week or two ago. I Would expect more sales, considering it is the holiday season.


----------



## ~Adam~ (Dec 19, 2010)

HavoCentral said:


> Not everything in china is made in sweatshops.I would consider that stereotyping and racism.
> 
> And yes, it costs a lot, I realize that. But with the price they charge for their products, *I am sure they can afford it*.
> 
> If I were V-Cube, Instead of releasing a puzzle in January, I would have released it a week or two ago. I Would expect more sales, considering it is the holiday season.



Why are you sure? Are you their accountant?

If they release a new product before it's ready it would be a terrible mistake especially when it's been so long since they last release a new product.


----------



## masterofthebass (Dec 19, 2010)

HavoCentral said:


> If I were V-Cube, Instead of releasing a puzzle in January, I would have released it a week or two ago. I Would expect more sales, considering it is the holiday season.



Ok let us know when you come up with a ground breaking design in the world of puzzle building and create a manufacturing company for people to get your products.


----------



## Ethan Rosen (Dec 19, 2010)

HavoCentral said:


> Not everything in china is made in sweatshops.I would consider that stereotyping and racism.
> 
> And yes, it costs a lot, I realize that. But with the price they charge for their products, I am sure they can afford it.
> 
> If I were V-Cube, Instead of releasing a puzzle in January, I would have released it a week or two ago. I Would expect more sales, considering it is the holiday season.


 
It's amazing that you know so much about business! Maybe you should create a design, put it to production, and sell it yourself! You can even sell it in the holiday season! O what a splendid idea that is! I mean, with all of this unbelievable knowledge you have about business in China and startup costs for plastic molding companies, you must have gone to an amazing business school. I have some ideas man, I think we should go into business together. Heck, I don't even need a great idea, your business skills alone should be enough to start a company. And when people blatantly steal our products and sell them cheaper because they don't have to deal with startup costs, we won't bother going after them, we'll just release puzzles during the holiday season. O what a splendid business venture this will be!


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## Godmil (Dec 19, 2010)

Ethan Rosen said:


> When was the last time you heard of any company publicly releasing information on a company they are pursuing legal action against?


Thank gawd there are still intelligent people posting on this forums. I feared mob mentality was taking rule.


----------



## Stefan (Dec 19, 2010)

Ethan Rosen said:


> Could it maybe have anything to do with the fact that the startup costs the Verdes family had to pay may be just a wee bit higher than a Chinese sweatshop owner has to pay when he steals a design?


 
If only someone like Meffert had offered to help them...


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## masterofthebass (Dec 19, 2010)

Stefan said:


> If only someone like Meffert had offered to help them...



Actually Seventowns apparently offered to help as well. It turns out people don't like the labor situations in china and reputably gave local jobs to people in their community. What a horrible disservice.


----------



## ElectricDoodie (Dec 19, 2010)

HavoCentral said:


> Im not young.





HavoCentral said:


> I'm 20.



I loled.








Also, I love premature petitions, made on the spot, without facts.
Then again, this is the internet.


----------



## CubesOfTheWorld (Dec 19, 2010)

Ethan Rosen said:


> You are clearly completely ignorant of the impact that the Verdes family has had on both speedcubing and puzzle design. The concept for the design is as important as the puzzles themselves When children ignorant of the situation like yourself keep thinking about nobody but themselves, everyone suffers except for a few sweatshop operators in China.


Below



CubesOfTheWorld said:


> Verdes makes very high quality cubes with a good, original mechanism. I just think that they should at least make the V-Cube 3 before they take away one of the greatest (if not the greatest) speedcubes on the market. I don't even think that the GuHong corner is similar enough to the V-Cube corner piece. The fact that it comes in separate parts and that there is a stalk on it doesn't make it similar enough to the V-Cube corner. I'm nearly positive that the owner of DaYan looked at the V-Cube corner and tried to replicate that into a 3x3, while trying to evade the copyright infringement.


----------



## Meep (Dec 19, 2010)

CubesOfTheWorld said:


> Verdes makes very high quality cubes with a good, original mechanism. I just think that they should at least make the V-Cube 3 before they take away one of the greatest (if not the greatest) speedcubes on the market. I don't even think that the GuHong corner is similar enough to the V-Cube corner piece. The fact that it comes in separate parts and that there is a stalk on it doesn't make it similar enough to the V-Cube corner. I'm nearly positive that the owner of DaYan looked at the V-Cube corner and tried to replicate that into a 3x3, while trying to evade the copyright infringement.


 
You seem so sure that it's about the corner piece.


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## HavoCentral (Dec 19, 2010)

Cameron aka Camcuber, said that he was told that when asked to remove the cubes from his site. 



ninjabob7 said:


> Also V-Cubes refused to sell to Speedcubeshop because he sells what they call knockoffs, but Cube Depot is still selling both GuHongs and authentic V-Cubes.


 
I would also like to add that cubedepot sells many KOs.



cmhardw said:


> This thread will remain open for discussion about the petition ONLY in regards to V-Cube's recent actions toward the GuHong brand cube. Any continuation of the arguing from the previous thread will result in an immediate 1 day ban and a deletion of the offending post.



We can go back and forth about who is right and who is wrong, but I agree with Chris that this thread is about the petition, and if you have negative opinions, keep them to yourselves. Out of the hundreds of people who had viewed this thread and the petition, only a handful have complained.

The point of a petition is to stop things before they go to far.
Currently there is a bill in the senate that if passed, will allow our government to blacklist sites in the united states, making them impossible to view.
Should we wait to see the outcome? or try to stop it before it gets to far. There are many people starting petitions and contacting senators to stop this from happening. This is just one example.


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## ninjabob7 (Dec 19, 2010)

The way I see it, Verdes has every right to protect his patent - perhaps the GuHong does infringe it, perhaps not. The problem I have is with his methods. From what I have read this whole thing started with him getting eBay/PayPal to shut down sellers. He did this with no warning, possibly even before taking legal action against DaYan but certainly before announcing such action publicly. From eBay's point of view, DaYan is guilty until proven innocent. While I can understand the benefits of this approach, it is the opposite of how the legal system works in most countries.

So far it looks like the only people that have been hurt by this incident are the small sellers. Anyone who wants to buy a GuHong or LingYun can get one from Lightake or from DaYan's own site.

It also strikes me as suspicious that Verdes is going after some sellers and products while ignoring others. The Shengshou 4x4 looks a lot more like the V-Cube mechanism than the GuHong does, but no one has gotten cease-and-desist letters about those. Also V-Cubes refused to sell to Speedcubeshop because he sells what they call knockoffs, but Cube Depot is still selling both GuHongs and authentic V-Cubes.

Basically, I have no problem with Verdes taking legal action against KO manufacturers. I do have a problem with him bullying sellers, and unless some new info comes out, I will not be buying any V-Cubes.


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## Dene (Dec 19, 2010)

You (HavoCentral) clearly have no idea what you are talking about.

I think it's almost time to start talking about Hitler.


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## Tim Reynolds (Dec 19, 2010)

This petition seems to be just a kneejerk mob reaction before relevant facts become available. Yes, petitions can work, but when they're very hastily made and not based on solid information they don't mean much.


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## HavoCentral (Dec 19, 2010)

Dene said:


> You (HavoCentral) clearly have no idea what you are talking about.
> 
> I think it's almost time to start talking about Hitler.


 
You (Dene) have not contributed anything to this conversation but hateful and flaming remarks towards me.


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## Julian (Dec 19, 2010)

ninjabob7 said:


> The way I see it, Verdes has every right to protect his patent - perhaps the GuHong does infringe it, perhaps not. The problem I have is with his methods. From what I have read this whole thing started with him getting eBay/PayPal to shut down sellers. He did this with no warning, possibly even before taking legal action against DaYan but certainly before announcing such action publicly. From eBay's point of view, DaYan is guilty until proven innocent. While I can understand the benefits of this approach, it is the opposite of how the legal system works in most countries.


Exactly.


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## masterofthebass (Dec 19, 2010)

if everyone would remember, eBay is behind the closing of auctions like pixel. v-cubes just reported items as kos and happen to see a few auctions. they cant keep up with every sing webstore thats out there. jat just doesn't make sense


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## ElectricDoodie (Dec 19, 2010)

HavoCentral said:


> I agree with Chris that this thread is about the petition, and if you have negative opinions, keep them to yourselves.


You apparently don't know what constitutes a discussion. 

You can't just say, "Let's start a discussion about Global Warming! Everyone who is opposed cannot say a word! Let's begin."
That is completely ignorant.


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## Dene (Dec 19, 2010)

EDIT: Directed at HavoCentral, people posting too fast.

When people say stupid things I like to let them know about it so perhaps they will take the efforts to better themselves. You have thus far chosen to ignore me, so be it. And if you read what I said and took the time to think about it (like I asked) you would have seen that I actually provided useful information such as "how about waiting until we know what's going on" and "the legal system is not as simple as signing a poorly written petition" etc. And yes I have singled you out because you are the instigator, but rest assured there have been some other very very idiotic comments made in this thread that I decided to ignore because I'm sure Chris doesn't want to give me a more serious ban. (I expect to get banned for this post, but to be consistent Chris will have to ban you as well!)


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## Ethan Rosen (Dec 19, 2010)

HavoCentral said:


> We can go back and forth about who is right and who is wrong, but I agree with Chris that this thread is about the petition, and if you have negative opinions, keep them to yourselves. Out of the hundreds of people who had viewed this thread and the petition, only a handful have complained.



I strongly disagree with the foundation you built your petition on. I don't see why you think discussing the argument behind your "petition" is somehow not talking about the "petition" but yea Ok. 



HavoCentral said:


> The point of a petition is to stop things before they go to far.



I don't think the Verdes family has gone far enough, but most of what they do will never be open to the public eye. I certainly hope the behind the scenes work they are doing will help to curb the knock-off problem our community is struggling with. 



HavoCentral said:


> Currently there is a bill in the senate that if passed, will allow our government to blacklist sites in the united states, making them impossible to view.
> Should we wait to see the outcome? or try to stop it before it gets to far. There are many people starting petitions and contacting senators to stop this from happening. This is just one example.


 
I happen to be strongly against that bill. What the Verdes family is doing is in no way related to this bill.


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## HavoCentral (Dec 19, 2010)

Ethan Rosen said:


> I happen to be strongly against that bill. What the Verdes family is doing is in no way related to this bill.


 
It is just an example of a big problem being nipped in the butt early on before it escalates.
I too am against it.


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## Daniel Wu (Dec 19, 2010)

Whether or not I agree with what the petition says, I still wouldn't sign it just because of the blatant disregard for grammar and spelling that suggest a very small amount of thought was put into it.


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## HavoCentral (Dec 19, 2010)

for all the people that have complained about the grammer:


```
As many cubers know, Verdes Innovations S.A. has recently stated 
that the Dayan Lingyun and Guhong cubes infringe on the copyrights granted 
by the following patent as shown at the link: 
[url]http://v-cubes.com/pdf/European_patent.pdf[/url]

Verdes Innovations S.A. has been known to take cubes
off the market, yet not releasing their own.
This petition is to see if we can get Verdes Innovations S.A.'s
attention and show thim how much this action has affected
the cubing community as a whole, in hopes they will retract
their claim.
```

thanks to LearningCode for the original write up.

Let me know if this sounds better, and add to or modify it to be as good as it can possibly be, then someone start a petition with it as the statement and post in this thread with a link to the petition, and I will add it to the first post. Or I could make it.


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## Stefan (Dec 19, 2010)

masterofthebass said:


> reputably gave local jobs to people in their community. What a horrible disservice.


 
Bawww, killjoy.


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## ZamHalen (Dec 19, 2010)

You missed Philip Espinoza,Gabriel Dechichi,and Breandan Vallence in the famous cubers thing.
Philip was NAR holder for 3x3, Gabriel is the fastest in South America, and Breandan won WC '09.


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## Fire Cuber (Dec 19, 2010)

Julian said:


> I can't see what that says.


 
oh, sorry I'll edit that post


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## Daniel Wu (Dec 19, 2010)

@HavoCentral
That sounds much better than the current wording.


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## HavoCentral (Dec 19, 2010)

Τσάρος Βερδες said:


> *list of countries in which V-CUBE™ technology is not protected by patents*



LOL

I would also like to note that despite new patent laws in China. Nothing has really changed.
WEird, how did the post get moved. I relpied to it before it was posted. That doesnt sound right. lol
Did anyone else notice it move. Or is it just me.
I may need to clear my cache.



rickcube said:


> @HavoCentral
> That sounds much better than the current wording.


 
Would you sign this one?
Have anything to change or add?


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## choza244 (Dec 19, 2010)

This is my point of view of this situation and I just hope that the others respect my opinion.

From what I can see, the mechanism of the DaYan GuHong is different from the mechanisms of the V-cubes, is different from the V-cube 3 (that is in the patents) and is different from the other V-cubes (5, 6, and 7). I really don't know exactly why Verdes is claiming that was copied or why the GuHong is infringing their patents but from what I can see the design is very different.

I agree that a lot of people have not realized the effort of Verdes when he designed the V-cube mechanisms and that he paid a lot of money to patent his invention. But I also think that almost anyone have realized that the designer of the GuHong also had to work a lot designing the mechanism and making it work properly, so why anybody think that the designer of the GuHong also did a great effort to design a good mechanism? because from my point of view, even if the designer was inspired in the V-cube mech, it did a completelly new and different design, so for me it was not copied and I really think that the people can see that it was not copied.

What I do not agree is the way the V-cube company is doing this things, first if they think the GuHong is infringing their patents they have all the rights to fight, but for me it should have been like making a demand to the Dayan company (legally) and not trying to remove their products from the market before the legal veredict, like they are doing now.
Apart of that and like I said, for me that legal veredic would be that the design of the GuHong is not infringing the patents in any way so it could continue being selled, but that's just my opinion, and from *my point of view* is not coincidence that the V-cube company is trying to remove the GuHongs just before christmas, for me is just a dirty move, and is just an attempt to eradicate a good product that is selling well these days. (why they didn't do the same with the YJ products first?)

So that's why I do not agree with Verdes actions and that's why i decided that if they keep with this situation i will not buy any of their products anymore.

Thanks if you took the time to read this and sorry for my english


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## einstein00 (Dec 19, 2010)

As many cubers know, Verdes Innovations S.A. has recently stated 
that the Dayan Lingyun and Guhong cubes infringe on the copyrights granted 
by the following patent as shown at the link: 
http://v-cubes.com/pdf/European_patent.pdf

Verdes Innovations S.A. *is* known to take *other* cubes
off the market *but* not relea*se *their own.
This petition is to see if we can get Verdes Innovations S.A.'s
attention and show *them* how much this action has affected
the cubing community as a whole, in hopes *that* they will retract
their claim.


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## Fire Cuber (Dec 19, 2010)

TimMc said:


> The fact that their inventions have provided more challenges for the twisty puzzle community, have enabled faster world records to be set, and they continually provide V-CUBE products as prizes for WCA competitions should be some indication that they support the speedcubing community.
> 
> The same can be said about Dayan.
> 
> Tim.


 
Sorry for a late reply.

Don't you forget about pulling maru and this one? This makes the speedsolving community become worse because, there were no good cubes. But yeah, what you're saying is completely right. So I think if they continue with this, they will make the speedsolving community became more worse. But, if they continue like what you're saying... The speedsolving will become better.



Τσάρος Βερδες said:


> Long and useless things



The perfect answer for this is : so what? And also, it is wasting space, people have to scroll down to read posts that are not useless like that.


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## Stefan (Dec 19, 2010)

einstein00 said:


> As many cubers know, Verdes Innovations S.A. has recently stated
> that the Dayan Lingyun and Guhong cubes infringe on the copyrights granted
> by the following patent as shown at the link:
> http://v-cubes.com/pdf/European_patent.pdf
> ...


 
What do you call a petition that doesn't request anything?


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## cmhardw (Dec 19, 2010)

Please move any continued discussion about the V-cube and GuHong debate to the original thread. An explanation of why is provided in this post.

Further posts in this thread should be related to the petition specifically.


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## qqwref (Dec 19, 2010)

HavoCentral said:


> We can go back and forth about who is right and who is wrong, but I agree with Chris that this thread is about the petition, and if you have negative opinions, keep them to yourselves. Out of the hundreds of people who had viewed this thread and the petition, only a handful have complained.


If 99% of people don't notice an error, does that mean the other 1% was wrong to see it?



ninjabob7 said:


> From eBay's point of view, DaYan is guilty until proven innocent.


I don't think it's that, as much as that eBay has very little to lose from shutting some auctions down, but very much to lose from refusing to. YouTube is exactly the same way - if a big label claims a video is infringing, whether there is evidence or not, it is in YouTube's best interest to shut down the video, because the penalties could be severe (going to court, and possibly a settlement) if they don't.


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## Igora (Dec 19, 2010)

Τσάρος Βερδες said:


> *list of countries in which V-CUBE™ technology is not protected by patents*


and how many of those countries have no copyright laws at all?


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## Whyusosrs? (Dec 19, 2010)

HavoCentral said:


> Not everything in china is made in sweatshops.I would consider that stereotyping and *racism.*



That's cool that China is now a race. 



> And yes, it costs a lot, I realize that. But with the price they charge for their products, I am sure they can afford it.



Dude, I didn't know you were Verdes's accountant :O



> If I were V-Cube, Instead of releasing a puzzle in January, I would have released it a week or two ago. I Would expect more sales, considering it is the holiday season.



Because V-cube is completely dumb and doesn't know when to release their products. I'm sure if they could have released cubes in early december, they would have, but clearly they don't have the money or they don't have the ability to make those cubes at the moment. Sorry for any inconvenience to you.



HavoCentral said:


> and if you have negative opinions, keep them to yourselves.



I'll make sure to tell that to the rest of the world. I'm sure Russia, Iraq, Afghanistan, North Korea, and even America would be more then happy to oblige.



HavoCentral said:


> You (Dene) have not contributed anything to this conversation but hateful and flaming remarks towards me.



Which I think are well deserved



HavoCentral said:


> being nipped in the butt


 
The saying is "nipped in the bud." 

I can't see how you can offer up a petition to tell V-cubes to allow Guhongs when you yourself support cubes that DO blatantly violate Verdes's patent. It would seem that you not only want them to allow Guhongs to be manufactured but also want them to not take any sort of action against any other cubes that violate their patents.


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## ~Phoenix Death~ (Dec 19, 2010)

Signed it. Twice


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## Inf3rn0 (Dec 19, 2010)

~Phoenix Death~ said:


> Signed it. Twice


 
Thats not how petitions work.


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## Bryan (Dec 19, 2010)

Godmil said:


> A lot of people are confused why Verdes would try to protect their 3x3 design when they're not (currently) in the 3x3 market. The answer is simple and hasn't been mentioned on the forums yet. If Verdes doesn't take steps to protect their patent (which covers 2x2 to 11x11) then it weakens it. Letting any patent violation pass un challenged will make any future claims harder to justify in court. So if they feel their patent is being violated (even if some people don't agree with it) they HAVE to take action in order to protect the patent - and essentially their whole business.


 
You're confusing trademark dilution with patents. Since patent infringement is a much more difficult thing to prove than trademark infringement, a company is not required to investigate every possible infringement case to keep their patent.



HavoCentral said:


> ```
> As many cubers know, Verdes Innovations S.A. has recently stated
> that the Dayan Lingyun and Guhong cubes infringe on the copyrights granted
> by the following patent as shown at the link:
> ...



You're confusing copyrights with patents.


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## ~Phoenix Death~ (Dec 19, 2010)

Inf3rn0 said:


> Thats not how petitions work.


 
Thrice.


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## HavoCentral (Dec 19, 2010)

Bryan said:


> You're confusing trademark dilution with patents. Since patent infringement is a much more difficult thing to prove than trademark infringement, a company is not required to investigate every possible infringement case to keep their patent.
> 
> You're confusing copyrights with patents.



Sorry, Didn't write the original version, just changed the link from google to verdes site.



~Phoenix Death~ said:


> Thrice.


 

LOLOLOLOL


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## cuberkid10 (Dec 19, 2010)

I signed yesterday.. #420.


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## y3k9 (Dec 19, 2010)

When this petition reaches over 1000 we need to send a link to verdes. I hope they/he realize(s) how much of an impact his/their actions have on the community.


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## HavoCentral (Dec 19, 2010)

Slightly over half way there, and with how far it has spread, Im sure they have either seen it, or heard about it.


If this petition ends up doing what it is supposed to, It will show how powerful the cubing community is.


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## HavoCentral (Dec 19, 2010)

Updated first post, Please read.


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## Ethan Rosen (Dec 19, 2010)

I think that you are strongly over estimating the power online petitions have in the courtroom.


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## Sa967St (Dec 19, 2010)

I suggest that you take out the "Notable signatures" from the first post. It seems rather pointless.



HavoCentral said:


> Verdes Innovations S.A. has been known to take cubes
> off the market, yet not releasing their own.
> This petition is to see if we can get Verdes Innovations S.A.'s
> attention and show *thim* how much this action has affected
> ...


*them


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## Godmil (Dec 20, 2010)

Bryan said:


> You're confusing trademark dilution with patents.


 
Ah yes, you may be right. My mistake.


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## HavoCentral (Dec 20, 2010)

Sa967St said:


> I suggest that you take out the "Notable signatures" from the first post. It seems rather pointless.
> 
> *them


 
Thank you.

@Ethan,if you read the updated first post, like I asked, you will see that the point to show Verdes Innovation how much their actions have affected the cubing community and their possible future sales.


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## Erzz (Dec 20, 2010)

It seems a lot of people are like "OMG I love guhong, how dare you take it away >: ("


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## ~Phoenix Death~ (Dec 20, 2010)

Erzz said:


> It seems a lot of people are like "OMG I love guhong, how dare you take it away >: ("


 
Gee, I wonder why?


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## Tim Major (Dec 20, 2010)

[youtube]aOIR6_HnMQo&feature=channel[/youtube]
Does anyone actually agree with this video? This has got to be one of the stupidest videos I have ever seen. Not only does he blame V-cubes, and say "they're destroying speedcubing", he also says the most bs things. 1:10: "they originally came to me, saying everything I sold is a KO, so, the Alpha 5, the Alpha 2 etc. is a KO, and infringes". That is *absolute bull****.* Spreading false info like this, to thousands of cubers (judging by the video views), can really damage a company. Whilst what V-cubes has done here may be wrong, (we don't necessarily know the full story) this is not the right response, that cube stores, and buyers should've given.
*V-cubes* should've;

1. Approached DaYan, not the smaller vendors who are in no way responsible for DaYan's apparent infringement (we are assuming that it has infringed on Verdes' patent here).
2. If they aren't responsive, which I guess may have happened already, then take further steps, ie: sue.

At this stage, they should approach cube stores, and the community alerting them of the situation.
Whilst the legal process is slow, if both companies are in disagreement, that is what should've happened. Think of it from both sides.

*The patent has indeed been infringed by DaYan.*

The cubes should be removed from all stores, or else damage to V-cubes may/will occur.

*The patent hasn't been infringed by DaYan.*

The cubes should stay at all stores, or else DaYan will lose sales, aka, money for future development.

So if either action is taken (leaving cubes on market or removing cubes from market), one company is hurt. 
In conclusion, sure, maybe V-cubes has handled this a little badly, but I really don't think the option to "boycott" V-cubes on the petition, is all that needed.
I would like some more info on the matter, but I assume I won't be getting any for a while yet.


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## y3k9 (Dec 20, 2010)

ZB_FTW!!! said:


> [long quote]


I'd say more, but that "info" doesn't belong in this thread seeing as though this thread is purely for discussing the petition. Henceforth I will say that the petition is to show v-cube that their actions effect the community greatly. The rest is all over the thread, you can easily find more.


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## Joël (Dec 20, 2010)

I think the petition could have been a little more elaborate, but I signed to show my support.

If enough ppl sign that could at least be a signal to V-cubes that they aren't making a good name for themselves in the community this way. But maybe that's they don't care much about that, idk.


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## TimMc (Dec 20, 2010)

Fire Cuber said:


> So I think if they continue with this, they will make the speedsolving community became more worse. But, if they continue like what you're saying... The speedsolving will become better.



I'd rather see patent owners being contacted and royalties being agreed upon and paid so that their design isn't stolen and resold _instead of seeing flawed petitions being posted to promote illegal activities_.

Do manufacturers have the resources to account for all the plastic that goes in and comes out when producing these puzzles? If not, will they be able to reliably pay royalties? _Oh, I'm sorry. Sales were down this quarter... _ $_$

Should PayPal be giving into patent claims without going through court? If anything *appeal to them* for failing to provide a service just as they did with WikiLeaks. Why can't the affected sellers appeal the claim?

Is it better for PayPal to stop providing services to a company that's allegedly selling products that violate a complainant company's patent without proof? Can the company easily appeal it in court to have the decision changed and then claim damage from the complainant?

Tim.


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## y3k9 (Dec 22, 2010)

The petition is dying away. Get more people to sign it people! Even get your non-cuber friends to sign (as long as you tell what they're signing and why).


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## Rpotts (Dec 22, 2010)

^^

Why, what good would it do to add people to the list who have no chance of buying V-cube/dayan products anyway?


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## y3k9 (Dec 22, 2010)

Rpotts said:


> ^^
> 
> Why, what good would it do to add people to the list who have no chance of buying V-cube/dayan products anyway?


The boycott idea might be hard for them, but on other petitions you'll see someone going out and getting signatures from random people. As long as they understand what they're signing and why.


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## qqwref (Dec 22, 2010)

Tim Major said:


> 1:10: "they originally came to me, saying everything I sold is a KO, so, the Alpha 5, the Alpha 2 etc. is a KO, and infringes". That is *absolute bull****.* Spreading false info like this, to thousands of cubers (judging by the video views), can really damage a company.


Is it false? I don't know the situation; do you have evidence that this isn't what happened?



Tim Major said:


> *V-cubes* should've;
> 1. Approached DaYan, not the smaller vendors who are in no way responsible for DaYan's apparent infringement (we are assuming that it has infringed on Verdes' patent here).
> 2. If they aren't responsive, which I guess may have happened already, then take further steps, ie: sue.


That would be nice, yes. Whatever gets done, I don't think it's appropriate to try to prevent people from selling a certain type of cube without a legal justification (such as a court ruling), especially when it is not clear to a non-lawyer observer that there is any infringement.



TimMc said:


> I'd rather see patent owners being contacted and royalties being agreed upon and paid so that their design isn't stolen and resold _instead of seeing flawed petitions being posted to promote illegal activities_.


1) Illegal activities? Do you mean you think the GuHong is illegal (a clear violation)?
2) I don't think random people in the community have the power to agree on royalties, especially when there isn't even any legal ruling yet. People are trying to do what they can.



TimMc said:


> Should PayPal be giving into patent claims without going through court? If anything appeal to them for failing to provide a service just as they did with WikiLeaks. Why can't the affected sellers appeal the claim?


Companies aren't people who will be won over by appeals to logic and niceness. I'm sure they are just going by their corporate rules, which prevent them from actually having to go to court in most situations, and that they'd be very reluctant to unblock someone without any evidence of innocence.


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## musicninja17 (Dec 27, 2010)

So i just ordered a V cube 5. And you know what? I'm happy about it. Even though i'm not happy that the GuHong has dissappeared for the time being. What does that tell us now?


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## einstein00 (Dec 27, 2010)

einstein00 said:


> As many cubers know, Verdes Innovations S.A. has recently stated
> that the Dayan Lingyun and Guhong cubes infringe on the copyrights granted
> by the following patent as shown at the link:
> http://v-cubes.com/pdf/European_patent.pdf
> ...


 
did anyone even notice this? Yes, the new writeup is much better, but still has many grammar and style errors.


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## ~Phoenix Death~ (Dec 27, 2010)

einstein00 said:


> did anyone even notice this? Yes, the new writeup is much better, but still has many grammar and style errors.


 
That's Einstein for you I guess.


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## HavoCentral (Jan 3, 2011)

And the Petition closes with 702 signatures.


----------

