# can WV be a substitute for not learning OLLs?



## chimpzi (Apr 13, 2009)

i'm into 2look OLL and i am wondering if i could just learn winter variation or F2LL so that i dont have to memo all the OLLs..

currently, im studying partial edge control, specificcally case1 of the ZBf2l where corner-edge pair is connectd.

is it ok?.. 
any comments or suggestions are very welcome.
thanks!>..


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## deco122392 (Apr 13, 2009)

hmm thats similar to what im learning. and yes it could work, but its a atter of preference. i see nothing wrong with oll/ pll except for the oll algs, which really arnt that bad.but if your going to take that (the wv pll approach that is) approach then i also recommend you mess around with partial edge control abit more then just when the c/e pair is formed, just for a better understanding of it.


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## ThePizzaGuy92 (Apr 13, 2009)

theres no easy way to get sub-15s, i say go for the OLLs.


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## chimpzi (Apr 13, 2009)

> theres no easy way to get sub-15s, i say go for the OLLs.



yeah, i'm not even stable at sub25..argh

i know its faster to know all OLLs but i prefer to not learn all of them because i dont own much of my time, im busy at school and others.
and im afraid that if i memo it, i will eventually forget some or many of them specially if i dont cube for a week or more.




> if your going to take that (the wv pll approach that is) approach then i also recommend you mess around with partial edge control abit more then just when the c/e pair is formed, just for a better understanding of it



yup!..im studying partial edge control with connected f2l pair,. 
but i think there is some weak points in WV.
1. if the last f2l pair is not connected[like R U R' insertion cases] + the partial edge cotrol for the R U R' cases are somewhat difficult to learn. IMO
2. if you dont know how to do inverses or mirrors, it will only be useful for only one angle. so it cant be used all of the time.

just a thought: can i just memo those algs in wv with 3edges oriented?. then apply it considering only the corners so it will be like orienting corners then orient edges?.. ouch, that's still 2-look OLL..


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## soccerking813 (Apr 13, 2009)

Honestly I would just stay with regular 2-look OLL, and maybe partial edge control so that you have at least 2 edges oriented in the last layer. I think that doing either F R U R' U' F' or the other short alg is a lot faster than recognising what case you have for the last pair and executing it.


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## King Koopa (Apr 13, 2009)

I agree with soccerking813, just stick with 2 look OLL atleast until you get faster. I average 12-13 and I still don't know all the OLLs


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## byu (Apr 13, 2009)

Agreed with two posts above. Don't learn OLLs until sub-20


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## puzzlemaster (Apr 13, 2009)

byu said:


> Agreed with two posts above. Don't learn OLLs until sub-20



it would appear as if you're not sub-20 yet according to your WCA stats.


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## Mr Cubism (Apr 13, 2009)

byu said:


> Agreed with two posts above. Don't learn OLLs until sub-20



There are at least a few exceptions:







First and second case are "for free" if you just know in what position they shall be in. The 3rd one is easy, and if you already know the first "T", why not know the second too?!


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## a small kitten (Apr 13, 2009)

Shouldn't it depend on your method? I'm sub 20 with ZZ and I have absolutely no intention to learn any more OLLs than the 8 or 9 I already know.


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## JohnnyA (Apr 13, 2009)

a small kitten said:


> Shouldn't it depend on your method? I'm sub 20 with ZZ and I have absolutely no intention to learn any more OLLs than the 8 or 9 I already know.



WV in your case could be a substitute for the cross OLLs you currently use, so you orient as you insert the last pair.


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## EmersonHerrmann (Apr 13, 2009)

chimpzi said:


> currently, im studying partial edge control, specificcally case1 of the ZBf2l where corner-edge pair is connectd.
> 
> is it ok?..
> any comments or suggestions are very welcome.
> thanks!>..



ZBF2L is full edge control.


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## brunson (Apr 13, 2009)

I see an interesting correlation. People that don't know full OLL recommend against learning them. Those that do say, "Just suck it up and do it".


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## Ellis (Apr 13, 2009)

brunson said:


> I see an interesting correlation. People that don't know full OLL recommend against learning them. Those that do say, "Just suck it up and do it".



I know all OLL's and I say wait, it's not that important. I feel like it's easier to learn and retain them if you have more general experience. 



puzzlemaster said:


> byu said:
> 
> 
> > Agreed with two posts above. Don't learn OLLs until sub-20
> ...



Surely you can't use just that to determine being sub-20. I only have one official sub-20 solve (at the same comp as byu), and I have sub-16 averages of 12 and a 16.93 average of 100.


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## Neroflux (Apr 13, 2009)

Ellis said:


> puzzlemaster said:
> 
> 
> > byu said:
> ...



must have been a really stressful comp lol.


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## Escher (Apr 13, 2009)

Neroflux said:


> Ellis said:
> 
> 
> > puzzlemaster said:
> ...



(hmm, im posting too much today...)
I'm way worse - look at my profile. I just set a sub 13 avg of 12 PB, I'm sub 5 on 2x2, sub 1:15 on 4x4 and ~32s OH. I seem to have improved meteorically recently (the holidays help), but still...


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## deco122392 (Apr 13, 2009)

EmersonHerrmann said:


> chimpzi said:
> 
> 
> > currently, im studying partial edge control, specificcally case1 of the ZBf2l where corner-edge pair is connectd.
> ...



why the need to clarify? Chimpzi knows this based on him stating that hes working on the first set of cases for zb(vh f2l?), were the last c/e pair is already formed.

also ive been thinking.
your solve would be something like this if im correct in understanding what it is that your trying to learn.:

*solve f2l normally until last c/e pair
use zb algs to pair up last c/e pair and orient ll edges
use wv alg to insert last c/e pair while orienting ll corners
pll
*
in contrast to:

*normal f2l
oll
pll*

is this correct? 

although i advocate learning the wv algs it seems more practical to just learn the oll algs little by little over time and add the wv algs to your collections of ll (or in this case f2ll) algs after so that you can aply them when usefull.

of course this (most of what ive written above) is all non applicable if your useing something like petrus or zz were i think mgls, zbll, zzll, or wv/pll is better.

(these is just my opinion of course, and you are free to do as you please)


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## chimpzi (Apr 14, 2009)

Mr Cubism said:


> byu said:
> 
> 
> > Agreed with two posts above. Don't learn OLLs until sub-20
> ...



i already know the two T's, one using the LLcross alg, andthe other one from the the Y-perm.
the first case, is that alg from badmephisto's site? i think i saw that last night.



@deco
last f2l pair is still intuitive but i insert it using case1 of zbf2l.


actually, i have a problem on my LL. it takes me 7-10secs to complete. sometimes 10+ if recognition is bad. i can do it in 5secs if it is 1look OLL then an easy PLL.
now, it amaze me knowing that you could actually influence your LL to skip OLL. but it seems like your still doing OLL because of the additional algs but you do it while inserting the last pair. another downside is the recognition.

i think there is no easy way to get faster..

guess i have to stick with 2look OLL.
learn partial edge control by hearT?..
then learn all the dot cases of OLL?.. what do you think guys?..
argh!... but its really nice to skip OLL...


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## deco122392 (Apr 14, 2009)

chimpzi said:


> @deco
> last f2l pair is still intuitive but i *insert* it using case1 of zbf2l.
> 
> 
> ...


 
if your inserting the pair with a zbf2l alg then youll have to do one of 7 (or was it 8) oll cases
the point of wv algs is to insert the c/e pair and orient the ll corners in one alg.


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## chimpzi (Apr 14, 2009)

deco122392 said:


> chimpzi said:
> 
> 
> > @deco
> ...




what i am thinking is to actually skip OLL. but i think it is impossible to do everytime.

i read some posts about wv, COLL and ELL, in comparison with each other, then i guess i will learn wv as an additional knwledge then apply it whenever convenient.


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## Johannes91 (Apr 14, 2009)

chimpzi said:


> what i am thinking is to actually skip OLL. but i think it is impossible to do everytime.


Depends on what skipping it means. Some WV fans say that R U' R' followed by a Sune avoids OLL.

I don't think the longest WV algs are really useful, but the easy ones are definitely worth knowing.


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## ostracod (Apr 14, 2009)

Johannes91 said:


> Depends on what skipping it means. Some WV fans say that R U' R' followed by a Sune avoids OLL.



This is true for a few cases, but ONLY because Sune is OPTIMAL for those cases (at least in my collection). In a couple cases, you do U R U2 R' and then Sune... If you want to see all of them, you can go to my page:

http://web.mac.com/teisenmann/Tripod/winter.html



Johannes91 said:


> I don't think the longest WV algs are really useful, but the easy ones are definitely worth knowing.



I'm not sure if it would be useful to know the really easy ones, since it takes a little time to recognize which WV case you have. For all the times which you DON'T know the case, you have to look at corner orientation TWICE (once for WV, once for OLL). The Winter variation is an all or nothing kind of technique...


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## Kyle™ (Apr 14, 2009)

Here are the algs for Winter variation for FR and BR slot, because I know some people use BR such as myself - > http://www.mediafire.com/?m0wd2motmwy

In reply to the thread creator, if you are worried about learning a lot of algorithms, you can just learn the first eight cases of ZBF2L as you were describing, 
here -> http://www.cubezone.be/conU1a.html
and the eight mirrors
here -> http://www.cubezone.be/conU1b.html
and then learn the basic 7 OLLs with four edges oriented. 
23 algorithms, all of which are really easy. You can average pretty fast with this. Is this what you are doing? I have been asking people for years to try this but I don't think anyone has.


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## Johannes91 (Apr 14, 2009)

ostracod said:


> For all the times which you DON'T know the case, you have to look at corner orientation TWICE (once for WV, once for OLL).


Since there are only 27 cases, it's easy to learn to see quickly which (O)LL case will come up before/while inserting the pair.

And even if I needed to recognize twice every time, I wouldn't consider it a huge problem. It doesn't take _that_ long, though perhaps it's more significant for the really fast cubers.



ostracod said:


> The Winter variation is an all or nothing kind of technique...


Hmm, I think of it as exactly the opposite. Trying to use it every single time will make your solves really awkward. For many cases, it's much more natural to solve the ce-pair directly than to first pair it up and then use WV. Sometimes it would just waste time and moves.

I know at least one alg for each case, but rarely use the longest ones.



KYLE ALLAIRE DROPS BOMBS! said:


> Here are the algs for Winter variation for FR and BR slot, because I know some people use BR such as myself


Nobody should be using only one, but many people just don't bother listing symmetric cases separately.


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## Kyle™ (Apr 14, 2009)

I have to agree with Johannes that WV can be used to avoid really stupid OLLs, which are easy to spot early on especially, otherwise I just place the pair normally. Remember, WV is only used a portion of the time, to avoid the slower OLLs. It doesn't really "replace" OLL in my opinion.


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## chimpzi (Apr 15, 2009)

ostracod said:


> Johannes91 said:
> 
> 
> > Depends on what skipping it means. Some WV fans say that R U' R' followed by a Sune avoids OLL.
> ...



i dont really understand why you mention wv as an all or nothing technique?..

im not really into zbf2l, im just learning the case1. so i pair the last c/e normally or intuitively then either apply partial edge control if there is only 2edges or 1edge oriented before inserting the paired c/e, or apply wv if all the 3edges in U are oriented. so its case to case basis for me.




KYLE ALLAIRE DROPS BOMBS! said:


> Here are the algs for Winter variation for FR and BR slot, because I know some people use BR such as myself - > http://www.mediafire.com/?m0wd2motmwy
> 
> In reply to the thread creator, if you are worried about learning a lot of algorithms, you can just learn the first eight cases of ZBF2L as you were describing,
> here -> http://www.cubezone.be/conU1a.html
> ...



im actually on the process of learning that same 8 cases and its mirrors. 
thanks for the BR slot algs for the WV..



KYLE ALLAIRE DROPS BOMBS! said:


> I have to agree with Johannes that WV can be used to avoid really stupid OLLs, which are easy to spot early on especially, otherwise I just place the pair normally. Remember, WV is only used a portion of the time, to avoid the slower OLLs. It doesn't really "replace" OLL in my opinion.



what im thinking is to really avoid those hard cases.
an OLL skip if all 3edges on U are oriented before insertion[using wv], and 1 of the 7 OLL cases where all edges oriented[with the help of partial edge control] if not all the edges on U are oriented before insertion of the last c/e pair.

EDIT: i forgot the name of the founder of summer variation, but i PMed him already for his algs. is it blah?... pls respond whoever you are.. hehe thanks...


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## ostracod (Apr 15, 2009)

When I said WV is "all or nothing", I meant that if you want to use it, you have to know ALL of the algorithms; This is unlike OLL and PLL, where you can accomplish your goal by fixing parts of the LL (for instance, you can use Sune 2 times to orient the corners, you can learn a 2 step PLL, etc).

However, I didn't mean that you have to use it ALL the time. Of course, you can decide to use a different technique such as EJF2L when you have an EJ pair. Or if you have an R U R' case, you can decide to leave WV behind and just apply an OLL algorithm. But these decisions don't involve looking at the U corner orientations... You are just thinking about which setup moves would be easiest.

It's true, as Johannes said, that you could use a very quick lookahead to see if you have an easy case. This would probably help some solves.


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## chimpzi (Apr 16, 2009)

ostracod said:


> When I said WV is "all or nothing", I meant that if you want to use it, you have to know ALL of the algorithms; This is unlike OLL and PLL, where you can accomplish your goal by fixing parts of the LL (for instance, you can use Sune 2 times to orient the corners, you can learn a 2 step PLL, etc).
> 
> However, I didn't mean that you have to use it ALL the time. Of course, you can decide to use a different technique such as EJF2L when you have an EJ pair. Or if you have an R U R' case, you can decide to leave WV behind and just apply an OLL algorithm. But these decisions don't involve looking at the U corner orientations... You are just thinking about which setup moves would be easiest.
> QUOTE]
> ...


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## Edmund (Apr 16, 2009)

I'm at 17 averages and I am not planning on learning all OLLs for awhile. I was but I realized my recignition sucked so im rewinding and waiting


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## Deleted member 2864 (Apr 16, 2009)

byu said:


> Agreed with two posts above. Don't learn OLLs until sub-20



I see nothing wrong with learning OLLs above sub 20... I mean, in the long run, you end up in the same place and learning it early only quickens your pace to sub 20. I'm at a solid 23 second average with full OLL/PLL.


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## chimpzi (Apr 17, 2009)

maybe what he's trying to say is that f2l is more time consuming so it would be better to master it first?...


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## brunson (Apr 17, 2009)

No last slot method (ZB, WV, VH, MG, edge control) can avoid OLL completely, You always have a chance of inserting your third F2L pair and the last slot being made accidentally. If that happens and and you don't know OLL, then you have to waste moves *making* a case you know.


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## chimpzi (Apr 18, 2009)

brunson said:


> No last slot method (ZB, WV, VH, MG, edge control) can avoid OLL completely, You always have a chance of inserting your third F2L pair and the last slot being made accidentally. If that happens and and you don't know OLL, then you have to waste moves *making* a case you know.



yup!.. true.. it happened to me many times before.
but even if you're inserting the 3rd pair you can also influence the LL edges.
http://www.cosine-systems.com/cubestation/f2l/f2ladvanced-influencingLLvh.php
so at least.


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## Swordsman Kirby (Apr 20, 2009)

byu said:


> Agreed with two posts above. Don't learn OLLs until sub-20



Nah, I disagree. Though I've never actually finished learning the OLLs. Apparently I know 35.


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## Lucas Garron (Apr 21, 2009)

brunson said:


> No last slot method (ZB, WV, VH, MG, edge control) can avoid OLL completely, You always have a chance of inserting your third F2L pair and the last slot being made accidentally. If that happens and and you don't know OLL, then you have to waste moves *making* a case you know.


Nah. My ELS case happens to be an EOLL, and CLS is OCLL. (Unless it's one of the ~30 OLLs I know by now...)

But I agree with you. No last slot method can avoid CLS completely, either.


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