# Quest to learn full ZBLL [SUSPENDED]



## LukasCubes (Oct 26, 2020)

This is where I will learn ZBLL. After I finish this in like a year, I will go to ELL which is under 30 algs and will be much easier.

Algs known 103/494. (Cases 1-12, 15, 25-26, 47, 49, 61, 73-84, 89-90, 97-98, 107-108, 109-110, 122, 134, 145-156, 160, 169, 181, 193, 205, 217, 220, 226, 237, 256, 266, 280, 289, 304, 309, 321, 331, 342, 353, 366, 383, 394, 404, 414, 426, 438, 455, 466 473-494)









Full 1LLL V3.pdf







drive.google.com





Have a great day!

Goals for Week 1: Learn all T 2GLL and at least one more U 2GLL [Done] I will start with the 2GLL cases to learn. I want to finish all 2GLL by December.
Comment: No way I am finishing 2GLL by thanksgiving let alone December or not even christmas but I am working hard.

Goals for Week 2: Learn at least 5 algs this week. [Done]
Comment: I will be able to get this no worries. Also the December 2GLL will not be done in december i am learning other algs.

Goals For Week 3: In person school monday-tuesday so i want to learn at least 5 algs. [Done]
Comment: If I go completely online next week ima try to learn 10 so thats gonna be my goals for every week. In person school =5 algs in the week. Online comepletly = 5 algs. If somehow we get a week where we go all 5 days, ima lower it to 2.
Edit: Veterans Day and after will be break time as i will be generating my algs for a new method i am trying to invent. Also my first stickerlass pyraminx arrived today and i want to learn algs on it too. I am also more focused on the LMCF method too.

Goals for Week 4: Learn at least 5 U 2GLL algs this week. [Done]
Comment: I am in person school this week so ima go for 5 instead of 10 algs to learn as a goal. Next week will be 10 algs goal.
Edit: I will easily get to this weeks goal today and its only half way over lol. And it is done.

Goals for Week 5: None, I am way too busy to do anything for it.
Comment: Nope

Goals for Week 6: Learn 10 algs for the week [BANNED, FAILED]
Comment: My school is completely online this week so I have time to do 2 algs or more per day instead of just 1.

Goals for Week 7: Learn 10 algs this week [Done]
Comment: I will learn maybe more since I havent learned an alg in 35 days since I got banned. Also now I will put down how many algs i learn each day.
MONDAY: 2 Algs learned
TUESDAY: 6 Algs learned
WEDNSDAY: 1 Alg learned
THURSDAY: 1 Alg learned
FRIDAY: Plan to recap all L 2GLL

Goals for Week 8: Learn Full H 2GLL (7 Left)
Comment: Somehow 95 people voted. Recog for the H 2GLL is gonna be hard.
Monday: Do Nothing
Tuesday: Learn a case (217)
Wednsday: Learn a case or 2
Thursday: Do nothing
Friday: Do Nothing
Saturday: Do Nothing
Sunday: Maybe learn 1 alg (TODAY)

I AM MISSING MY MAIN 3x3 SO IT IS SUSPENDED UNTIL I FIND IT!


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## Nir1213 (Oct 26, 2020)

LukasCubes said:


> The OLLCP quest is cancelled so ima make a 1LLL quest. Below is a PDF of all 3915 algorithms. Well it says 3916 but number 473 is a last layer skip. anyway I will not count the alg as known if I cant look at it and say 1LLL so as of writing this, I know nothing about 1LLL but I hope to know it fully hopefully by 2030 lol.
> 
> Algs known 22/39165.
> 
> ...


haha i bet you will stop at around 500 algs lol, maybe even lower
this is a stuuupid quest lol 
But you might just do it lol and your gonna be the first person who knows like 4000 algs and full 1LLL
this will also just completely get rid of learning ZBLL XD


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## LukasCubes (Oct 26, 2020)

Nir1213 said:


> haha i bet you will stop at around 500 algs lol, maybe even lower
> this is a stuuupid quest lol
> But you might just do it lol and your gonna be the first person who knows like 4000 algs and full 1LLL
> this will also just completely get rid of learning ZBLL XD


Maybe but i wont give up yet.
Yes this is a stupid quest but I will try my best.
I might do it. I wont say I can but I wont say i cant.
ZBLL is the first subset I am going for, starting with the T cases.


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## Nir1213 (Oct 26, 2020)

LukasCubes said:


> Yes this is a stupid quest but I will try my best.


funny it rhymes
anyway i dont think i can discourage you to this maybe stupid quest so good luck anyway.


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## LukasCubes (Oct 26, 2020)

Nir1213 said:


> funny it rhymes
> anyway i dont think i can discourage you to this maybe stupid quest so good luck anyway.


thanks


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## tx789 (Oct 26, 2020)

You do know many of those algs won't be the best alg right. I bet a lot are really bad. You will need to gen a lot yourself


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## Nir1213 (Oct 26, 2020)

tx789 said:


> You do know many of those algs won't be the best alg right. I bet a lot are really bad.


i dont think so.
Last layer king reviewed all these and i think he said alot of these were optimised.


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## LukasCubes (Oct 27, 2020)

tx789 said:


> You do know many of those algs won't be the best alg right. I bet a lot are really bad. You will need to gen a lot yourself


I know but as I said 585486528648568516056828604 times before, I love learning algorithms so ima keep going. NO STOPPING!



Nir1213 said:


> i dont think so.
> Last layer king reviewed all these and i think he said alot of these were optimised.


yay


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## tx789 (Oct 27, 2020)

Nir1213 said:


> i dont think so.
> Last layer king reviewed all these and i think he said alot of these were optimised.


There will be better algs for almost all cases. I don't care if last layer king reviewed them. PLL is agruably not fully optimised. There are 4000+ cases. There will be better algs than in that pdf. They might be a little optimised but they could be way way more optimised. Are there many algs with S turns for example. There are plenty of good olls with s. 

They may be optimised to some extent but they no where near OLLs or even ZBLLs level. A lot will be alt OLLs but the ones that aren't well. 

Also would most 1LLL for the F R U R'U' F' OLL algs suck especially compared to OLL/PLL or are those algs just oll then pll?



Honestly with a algs set this unexplored you have to gen your own algs. This doc gives one alg and how can you know it is the best?


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## LukasCubes (Oct 27, 2020)

tx789 said:


> There will be better algs for almost all cases. I don't care if last layer king reviewed them. PLL is agruably not fully optimised. There are 4000+ cases. There will be better algs than in that pdf. They might be a little optimised but they could be way way more optimised. Are there many algs with S turns for example. There are plenty of good olls with s.
> 
> They may be optimised to some extent but they no where near OLLs or even ZBLLs level. A lot will be alt OLLs but the ones that aren't well.
> 
> ...


3915 cases, I will go from sub-20 to probably sub-15 by the time I hit the algs with S moves so it will be a while, I understand most of the algs suck but i have said 9356776927769497429754975975975929959794952524959545979297 times before I love learning algs so deal with it.


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## Nir1213 (Oct 27, 2020)

tx789 said:


> There will be better algs for almost all cases. I don't care if last layer king reviewed them. PLL is agruably not fully optimised. There are 4000+ cases. There will be better algs than in that pdf. They might be a little optimised but they could be way way more optimised. Are there many algs with S turns for example. There are plenty of good olls with s.
> 
> They may be optimised to some extent but they no where near OLLs or even ZBLLs level. A lot will be alt OLLs but the ones that aren't well.
> 
> ...


well if you have a problem with that then you can optimise them yourself, lets see where that will bring you.
The guy who created this put many hours of work i dont think he would just put bad algs into that, thats just waste
even if you find better algs other people might prefer others
dont just assume things right away.
You are right about it unexplored that is the reason the guy made this.


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## tx789 (Oct 27, 2020)

Nir1213 said:


> well if you have a problem with that then you can optimise them yourself, lets see where that will bring you.
> The guy who created this put many hours of work i dont think he would just put bad algs into that, thats just waste
> even if you find better algs other people might prefer others
> dont just assume things right away.
> You are right about it unexplored that is the reason the guy made this.


All I am saying is there is heaps of room for improvement. Why would I bother with optimising it myself. My goal is to get faster and 1lll isn't very useful for that. There are plenty of things I need to work on before that.


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## Tao Yu (Oct 27, 2020)

You probably should generate some of your own algs - it's a good skill to have.

When I talked to Daniel Rose-Levine and Jabari Nuruddin about this, they said that they believed you don't necessarily need the absolute best algs in order to have an advantage over OLL/PLL. I think they even seemed to think it could be worth the effort even without perfect algs. I'm sure this is a niche view though, so interpret that with care.

I think as long as someone really understands what an algset does for them, I would not discourage them for learning it. As long as you understand that 1LLL is years of work (including work in areas such as generating algs) and provides a pretty small advantage (like around half as second or something - where you could save like 10 seconds by improving F2L), and you're okay with that, I say go ahead.



Nir1213 said:


> The guy who created this put many hours of work i dont think he would just put bad algs into that, thats just waste



The problem is more to do with the fact that it takes a lot of time to generate near optimal algs. Easiest way to see this is how we're still occasionally discovering better PLL algs. With a set as big as 1LLL, you can't spend as much time optimizing each alg, and thus they will be much less optimized than a smaller set.

I know that this guy has put a lot of effort into his sheet however, pulling from a large amount of sources, and having timed every (!) alg. So they should be at a decent level (disclaimer: I've not checked the algs myself).


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## BenChristman1 (Oct 27, 2020)

One good thing is that most of those algs are RUF, with the occasional M, D, or wide move.


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## LukasCubes (Oct 27, 2020)

BenChristman1 said:


> One good thing is that most of those algs are RUF, with the occasional M, D, or wide move.


Yes that is good. I normally like RUL algs better but RUF is a close 2nd. And there is a few RUL algs in there I think.


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## Spacey10 (Oct 27, 2020)

Bruh why did you make a new thread?


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## Nir1213 (Oct 27, 2020)

tx789 said:


> All I am saying is there is heaps of room for improvement. Why would I bother with optimising it myself. My goal is to get faster and 1lll isn't very useful for that. There are plenty of things I need to work on before that.


you dont have to learn 1LLL lol i was just saying that because your critsizims sounded like you expected someone to do it, like you
but anyway its what @LukasCubes chooses.


Tao Yu said:


> You probably should generate some of your own algs - it's a good skill to have.
> 
> When I talked to Daniel Rose-Levine and Jabari Nuruddin about this, they said that they believed you don't necessarily need the absolute best algs in order to have an advantage over OLL/PLL. I think they even seemed to think it could be worth the effort even without perfect algs. I'm sure this is a niche view though, so interpret that with care.
> 
> ...


you are right but there are many good PLL algs, it just depends on what the learner chooses.
The guy probably genned the algs that suit him and what he thinks will suit other people.
They are good but other people might choose others.
tbh like 98 percent of the algs will not suit people but its just the most optimized
some of the algs can be optimized to suit you tho
to bad we have to gen it ourselves oof

buut there are probably some algs that can be clearly genned more better, but other than that its good


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## Nir1213 (Oct 27, 2020)

Spacey10 said:


> Bruh why did you make a new thread?


idk he always does that but he probably did that because this quest is gonna be stupid long with tons of pages about @LukasCubes talking how many algs he has learnt
and its litterally 4000 algs like i think its better for him to put this all in one thread and not in another or its gonna be really messy lol


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## Tao Yu (Oct 27, 2020)

If you prefer RUL algs to RUF algs, that probably means your fingertricks still need improvements. 

It makes sense that you find RUL easier now. It's quite a simple moveset: you just do U moves with index flicks and R and L with wrist turns. 

For RUF algs you need to plan your fingertricks so that the right fingers are in the right place when a F move comes along. This often requires tricks such as backward OH flicks and pushes for U moves. You also have to learn to do F moves in many different ways - there's at least 5 or 6, and there's fingertricks that you'll need to learn using your thumb, index, ring and pinky fingers. You will also need to learn which of these fingertricks to use in which situation.

As someone who likes to learn algs you need to have the attitude that you will learn to properly fingertrick RUF algs. You should expect this to make you eventually prefer RUF algs to RUL (in the majority of cases).


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## BenChristman1 (Oct 27, 2020)

Tao Yu said:


> If you prefer RUL algs to RUF algs, that probably means your fingertricks still need improvements.
> 
> It makes sense that you find RUL easier now. It's quite a simple moveset: you just do U moves with index flicks and R and L with wrist turns.
> 
> ...


I still don’t understand people who think that RUL is a good moveset.


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## Tao Yu (Oct 27, 2020)

Nir1213 said:


> you are right but there are many good PLL algs, it just depends on what the learner chooses.
> The guy probably genned the algs that suit him and what he thinks will suit other people.
> They are good but other people might choose others.
> tbh like 98 percent of the algs will not suit people but its just the most optimized
> ...



I don't think you understood what I meant. The problem is that are likely many better algs for 1LLL cases which haven't even been discovered. With PLL you can choose from many good algs exactly because people put a lot of time and effort into every alg including running cube explorer for hours, timing countless candidate algs, figuring out fingertricks that make bad algs good and applying transformations that make an alg better. It's much harder to do this to the same degree with 1LLL.


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## Nir1213 (Oct 27, 2020)

Tao Yu said:


> I don't think you understood what I meant. The problem is that are likely many better algs for 1LLL cases which haven't even been discovered. With PLL you can choose from many good algs exactly because people put a lot of time and effort into every alg including running cube explorer for hours, timing countless candidate algs, figuring out fingertricks that make bad algs good and applying transformations that make an alg better. It's much harder to do this to the same degree with 1LLL.


yea you have a point. Someone would have to do this for years maybe to optimize most of them, and even there are probably better
but he probably took a shortcut and used like okay algs.
it wouldnt matter tho cause no one gonna bother learn 4000 algs lol



Tao Yu said:


> If you prefer RUL algs to RUF algs, that probably means your fingertricks still need improvements.
> 
> It makes sense that you find RUL easier now. It's quite a simple moveset: you just do U moves with index flicks and R and L with wrist turns.
> 
> ...


i think too but however if you get the fingertricks right for the ruf its pretty smooth for you on the long run. Some people still underestimate the pinch u which kinda sucks tho. That fingertrick is good if your using RUF and want little to no fingergrips.

RUL is okay too as long as you have the right fingertricks so you dont regrip alot


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## LukasCubes (Oct 27, 2020)

Spacey10 said:


> Bruh why did you make a new thread?


1LLL is too different than OLL and COLL.



Nir1213 said:


> you dont have to learn 1LLL lol i was just saying that because your critsizims sounded like you expected someone to do it, like you
> but anyway its what @LukasCubes chooses.
> 
> you are right but there are many good PLL algs, it just depends on what the learner chooses.
> ...


And I choose learning 1LLL



Nir1213 said:


> idk he always does that but he probably did that because this quest is gonna be stupid long with tons of pages about @LukasCubes talking how many algs he has learnt
> and its litterally 4000 algs like i think its better for him to put this all in one thread and not in another or its gonna be really messy lol


You are correct lol but I am keeping all the 1LLL quest here.



Tao Yu said:


> If you prefer RUL algs to RUF algs, that probably means your fingertricks still need improvements.
> 
> It makes sense that you find RUL easier now. It's quite a simple moveset: you just do U moves with index flicks and R and L with wrist turns.
> 
> ...


I am sub-20 and I do need to improve all my finger tricks but despite turning mainly Righty turns, I am left handed in real life so thats why I prefer RUL algs BARELY over RUF algs. I still like RUF algs like other cubers tho. I can properly fingertrich RUF moves too.


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## Athefre (Oct 27, 2020)

The algs in that document could definitely be improved a lot. Many of them seem like they were just taken from the first few algs generated by Cube Explorer. It feels like, for many cases, effort wasn't put into looking at longer, easier to perform algs. I was using that document while developing CLL+1. At first I thought it was useful, but eventually realized that I was able to find better algs myself when I put the time in for each case.


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## effperm (Oct 27, 2020)

what is your learning order? 0-3916 just like the sheet?


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## TheSlykrCubr (Oct 27, 2020)

Tao Yu said:


> I don't think you understood what I meant. The problem is that are likely many better algs for 1LLL cases which haven't even been discovered. With PLL you can choose from many good algs exactly because people put a lot of time and effort into every alg including running cube explorer for hours, timing countless candidate algs, figuring out fingertricks that make bad algs good and applying transformations that make an alg better. It's much harder to do this to the same degree with 1LLL.



as an example of pll's not being optimised, i made a shorter nb perm that's slightly shorter
F2 R' F2 U2 R2 U2 R' F2 R2 U2 R' U2 F2 R2


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## qwr (Oct 27, 2020)

@Bindedsa will surely beat you. He has like at least a thousands algs headstart


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## xyzzy (Oct 27, 2020)

TheSlykrCubr said:


> as an example of pll's not being optimised, i made a shorter nb perm that's slightly shorter
> F2 R' F2 U2 R2 U2 R' F2 R2 U2 R' U2 F2 R2


Show a video of yourself executing that alg sub-2 (or faster than the other existing N perm algs) and I'll believe you.

Anyone can easily find move-optimal algs using Cube Explorer or the like; that's not really what we're talking about here.


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## abunickabhi (Oct 27, 2020)

All the best for learning 1LLL. I would rather become better in method neutrality before learning 1LLL. Also, I am learning 5-style currently so 1LLL will not be on my radar.

Good luck! Hope you don't give up soon.


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## LukasCubes (Oct 27, 2020)

Athefre said:


> The algs in that document could definitely be improved a lot. Many of them seem like they were just taken from the first few algs generated by Cube Explorer. It feels like, for many cases, effort wasn't put into looking at longer, easier to perform algs. I was using that document while developing CLL+1. At first I thought it was useful, but eventually realized that I was able to find better algs myself when I put the time in for each case.


I know some of the algs can be improved but these algs are the ones I am using.



f96 said:


> what is your learning order? 0-3916 just like the sheet?


I will start with the beginning of the doc and work my way through he cases. Startun with Case 1 and go through case 3916.



qwr said:


> @Bindedsa will surely beat you. He has like at least a thousands algs headstart


I know he will



TheSlykrCubr said:


> as an example of pll's not being optimised, i made a shorter nb perm that's slightly shorter
> F2 R' F2 U2 R2 U2 R' F2 R2 U2 R' U2 F2 R2


I will stick with the one I have now but others might be interested in it



abunickabhi said:


> All the best for learning 1LLL. I would rather become better in method neutrality before learning 1LLL. Also, I am learning 5-style currently so 1LLL will not be on my radar.
> 
> Good luck! Hope you don't give up soon.


I am method neutral between CFOP and ZB so I think it is time for me. Everyone has different opinions on whether people should learn 1LLL at all or when they should do it and for me, i think I should do it.


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## Nir1213 (Oct 27, 2020)

LukasCubes said:


> I am method neutral between CFOP and ZB so I think it is time for me. Everyone has different opinions on whether people should learn 1LLL at all or when they should do it and for me, i think I should do it.


oh cool


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## LukasCubes (Oct 29, 2020)

I had something to do that durailed my goal of 24 algs per week so ima change the 2GLL goal to December. Also if nothing else interupt my alg learning pace, I should have them all done by December.


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## Nir1213 (Oct 29, 2020)

LukasCubes said:


> I had something to do that durailed my goal of 24 algs per week so ima change the 2GLL goal to December. Also if nothing else interupt my alg learning pace, I should have them all done by December.


oh well good luck


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## TheSlykrCubr (Oct 29, 2020)

LukasCubes said:


> I had something to do that durailed my goal of 24 algs per week so ima change the 2GLL goal to December. Also if nothing else interupt my alg learning pace, I should have them all done by December.



I'd say do maybe tripod ll after 2gll just cause it's pretty short


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## LukasCubes (Oct 29, 2020)

TheSlykrCubr said:


> I'd say do maybe tripod ll after 2gll just cause it's pretty short


no im gonna go ZBLL before tripod LL.


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## Nir1213 (Oct 29, 2020)

LukasCubes said:


> no im gonna go ZBLL before tripod LL.


just do it your way it doesnt really matter
but its common sense to start small then big because like for example, you cant jump before you walk.


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## LukasCubes (Nov 3, 2020)

Week 2 technically starts today but i will start learning algs tomorrow as I have no school tomorrow due to election day.


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## WoowyBaby (Nov 3, 2020)

I'm sorry if this is in the wrong forum thread, but considering your goal of learning a large alg set (3915), I thought my idea is relevant and useful to your endevour, and this is quite a new thread so there are active people that can respond to my thoughts.

So recently, I have not been cubing. At all. I did it for a while, like 2 years in my life and it was a great time, but I've moved on to other interests, specifically, learning Japanese. I literally immerse 24/7 and I'm actually listening to a TV show on my mp3 player as I am writing this. I'm serious about this haha. anyway, what I'm trying to get to is I have been using Anki in my language learning journey- and I realized it is an incredibly useful resource for memorizing a large alg set such as 1LLL.

If you don't know, Anki is a program (software) that is a spaced repitition flash card system which shows you your information you want to remember right before you'll probably forget it, so you can forever retain information with the least amount of memorizing and reviewing. To be honest, the Anki algorithm is super simple, but whatever lol. Anki is most popular among medical students and language learners.

If you did 43 new 1LLL cards per day, then you would learn all 3915 in exactly 3 months.
An estimate for how much time you'd be reviewing daily would be approximentely 2 or so hours/day, which is definitely a lot, but also definitely possible.

REALIZATION:
THIS EXISTS!








The objectively and measurably best way to learn ZBLL. The Anki approach.


Hi Back in 2016 i started working on an Anki deck for learning ZBLL for TH and OH rightie. Later Simon Kalhofer (@Petro Leum ) jumped on the train and added algs for OH leftie and added a nice tagging system. Today is finally the day we share the deck. I encourage you to read the whole...




www.speedsolving.com






The objectively and measurably best way to learn ZBLL - AnkiWeb



If up your Anki the exact way that he does and set new cards to 35/day you can learn all 493 ZBLL algs in exactly 2 weeks.

I highly, highly recommend this.

Once you finish that whole ZBLL which won't take you very long at all, and if you still want to learn full 1LLL after doing that, I recommend creating your own Anki deck with the same format as that ZBLL deck you just went through- it might take a bit of time to make a 1LLL deck yourself but it's just a ton of copy + paste from the 1LLL database so I don't think it will take very long, probably just like 1-2 days. After you finish the ZBLL deck and make your own 1LLL deck, just keep going man.
Make sure you keep up with your reviews every day- do them first thing in the morning and make it a habit, because if you don't do your scheduled reviews for that day then you'll forget all of the algs that Anki has scheduled for you.

I don't know who you are, but I know you can learn 1LLL.

You can do it. And you can do it fast and you'll remember the algs well. If you have a lot of time to learn new algs, you can finish all of 1LLL in 3 months or possibly even faster, although learning all 3915 algs in 2 months would require roughly 4ish hours of reps per day, but don't worry, even if you don't really have very much free time, like less than 2 hours per day, you still get them all learned in 6 months.

The important thing is consistency- always do your reps every day- if you have an off day and you don't feel like learning new algs, that's okay, you dont have to add any new cards that day if you don;t want to, but whatever you do, don't miss the reviews from algs you've already learned. Like what I'm saying is if you can't make new progress that's fine, just don't take a step backward.



Also, a really important tip is to never use the 'Hard' button. Click Good if you got it, and Again if you didn't get it.
The Hard button was a bad design feature. Also, use the EXACT same Anki settings that the forum post says to and you're good.




I apoligize for this mess of a post, it's jsut a stream of thoughts, but I hope this was useful 



I believe in you ★ ★


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## One Jump Man (Nov 3, 2020)

This is hella ambitious, but I'm rooting for you, man!


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## EngiNerdBrian (Nov 3, 2020)

What is the point in learning this alg set? I’m not trying to be condescending I’m just wondering what’s in it for you?

This arguably won’t improve your times at all until you’ve learned all the algs and committed them to muscle memory and can recognize them quickly. That could take years.

Are you learning this as a party trick? A sense of pride? Or is learnig algs just that fun for you, even if you can’t apply it in your daily solves?!?


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## Jam88 (Nov 3, 2020)

Are you also practising recognising them because that would be really important if you ever wanted to use them in solves?


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## Nir1213 (Nov 3, 2020)

EngiNerdBrian said:


> What is the point in learning this alg set? I’m not trying to be condescending I’m just wondering what’s in it for you?
> 
> This arguably won’t improve your times at all until you’ve learned all the algs and committed them to muscle memory and can recognize them quickly. That could take years.
> 
> Are you learning this as a party trick? A sense of pride? Or is learnig algs just that fun for you, even if you can’t apply it in your daily solves?!?


hes learning just for fun


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## RiceMan_ (Nov 3, 2020)

Nir1213 said:


> hes learning just for fun


It would be impressive if he could use 1LLL in his solves


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## LukasCubes (Nov 3, 2020)

WoowyBaby said:


> I'm sorry if this is in the wrong forum thread, but considering your goal of learning a large alg set (3915), I thought my idea is relevant and useful to your endevour, and this is quite a new thread so there are active people that can respond to my thoughts.
> 
> So recently, I have not been cubing. At all. I did it for a while, like 2 years in my life and it was a great time, but I've moved on to other interests, specifically, learning Japanese. I literally immerse 24/7 and I'm actually listening to a TV show on my mp3 player as I am writing this. I'm serious about this haha. anyway, what I'm trying to get to is I have been using Anki in my language learning journey- and I realized it is an incredibly useful resource for memorizing a large alg set such as 1LLL.
> 
> ...


im gonna try it in a little bit thanks


One Jump Man said:


> This is hella ambitious, but I'm rooting for you, man!


thanks


EngiNerdBrian said:


> What is the point in learning this alg set? I’m not trying to be condescending I’m just wondering what’s in it for you?
> 
> This arguably won’t improve your times at all until you’ve learned all the algs and committed them to muscle memory and can recognize them quickly. That could take years.
> 
> Are you learning this as a party trick? A sense of pride? Or is learnig algs just that fun for you, even if you can’t apply it in your daily solves?!?


learning als is THAT FUN for me.


Jam88 said:


> Are you also practising recognising them because that would be really important if you ever wanted to use them in solves?


yes i am pacticing recognizing them


RiceMan_ said:


> It would be impressive if he could use 1LLL in his solves


i wont use them in main solves but sometimes i might use them in some solves i get easy cases.



WoowyBaby said:


> I'm sorry if this is in the wrong forum thread, but considering your goal of learning a large alg set (3915), I thought my idea is relevant and useful to your endevour, and this is quite a new thread so there are active people that can respond to my thoughts.
> 
> So recently, I have not been cubing. At all. I did it for a while, like 2 years in my life and it was a great time, but I've moved on to other interests, specifically, learning Japanese. I literally immerse 24/7 and I'm actually listening to a TV show on my mp3 player as I am writing this. I'm serious about this haha. anyway, what I'm trying to get to is I have been using Anki in my language learning journey- and I realized it is an incredibly useful resource for memorizing a large alg set such as 1LLL.
> 
> ...


I tried it and downloaded the flash deck anki thigs and it isnt working so ima stick with the full 1LLL pdf


----------



## Nir1213 (Nov 3, 2020)

LukasCubes said:


> I tried it and downloaded the flash deck anki thigs and it isnt working so ima stick with the full 1LLL pdf


looks like you need sum *XTRA *help.


----------



## DiamondGolem12 (Nov 3, 2020)

Wow
It took me three weeks to learn 4LLL
I have respect for you


----------



## LukasCubes (Nov 3, 2020)

DiamondGolem12 said:


> Wow
> It took me three weeks to learn 4LLL
> I have respect for you


yo thanks


----------



## Spacey10 (Nov 3, 2020)

DiamondGolem12 said:


> Wow
> It took me three weeks to learn 4LLL
> I have respect for you


Wut? 3 weeks! That's how long it took me to learn full 3lll!


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## RiceMan_ (Nov 3, 2020)

Spacey10 said:


> Wut? 3 weeks! That's how long it took me to learn full 3lll!


it took me 2 weeks to learn 2LLL


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## DiamondGolem12 (Nov 3, 2020)

Spacey10 said:


> Wut? 3 weeks! That's how long it took me to learn full 3lll!


I was also learning Ortega and f2l at the time, that's why it took a while


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## trangium (Nov 3, 2020)

LukasCubes said:


> i wont use them in main solves but sometimes i might use them in some solves i get easy cases.


If you're going to learn the entire set, why not actually use it in solves? If you only use 1LLL in solves for easy cases, you're probably better off only learning the easy cases.


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## LukasCubes (Nov 3, 2020)

trangium said:


> If you're going to learn the entire set, why not actually use it in solves? If you only use 1LLL in solves for easy cases, you're probably better off only learning the easy cases.


well i said 43786427826757856785264585675678657865768785258747684865658787987953795897598754 times before, i love learning algs. I will use 1LLL as a method maybe when I get recognition right for all of them but that has a LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG way to go


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## Nir1213 (Nov 3, 2020)

LukasCubes said:


> well i said 43786427826757856785264585675678657865768785258747684865658787987953795897598754 times before, i love learning algs. I will use 1LLL as a method maybe when I get recognition right for all of them but that has a LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG way to go


i mean if you do solves with it you wont forget faster anyway. Doing 1LLL in solves can help your recog and memo.
Garrunteed you have to do 3915 solves if each case was different but people litterally do 2000 solves in 1 session so no problem there.


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## qwr (Nov 4, 2020)

if you like algs, learn all of advanced F2L, ZBLS, ZBLL, WV first


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## LukasCubes (Nov 4, 2020)

qwr said:


> if you like algs, learn all of advanced F2L, ZBLS, ZBLL, WV first


ok; WV will be last and I am not that advanced with F2L, full ZBLS wont be needed as i can just orient the 5 edges then do my last pair and I am in process of learning ZBLL.


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## xyzzy (Nov 4, 2020)

Spacey10 said:


> Wut? 3 weeks! That's how long it took me to learn full 3lll!





RiceMan_ said:


> it took me 2 weeks to learn 2LLL


By extrapolation, clearly it'll only take one week to learn full 1LLL!



Nir1213 said:


> i mean if you do solves with it you wont forget faster anyway. Doing 1LLL in solves can help your recog and memo.
> Garrunteed you have to do 3915 solves if each case was different but people litterally do 2000 solves in 1 session so no problem there.


Unless you're going out of your way to somehow avoid repeated cases, you're really looking at around 32000 solves (see: coupon collector's problem) to get every 1LLL (except skip/H perm/pure 4-flip/4-flip H) at least once.

Also, who the heck regularly does 2000-solve sessions? Like, assuming they spend 4 seconds scrambling, 6 seconds inspection and 6 seconds to solve, that's 16 seconds per solve, or 32000 seconds = 8 hours 53 minutes in total. It's not _impossible_; it's just ridiculous to expect anyone normal to be able to keep up with that kind of practice schedule.

But yes, seeing the cases show up in solves really does help reinforce them in your memory.



qwr said:


> if you like algs, learn all of advanced F2L, ZBLS, ZBLL, WV first


1LLL subsumes ZBLL, and it also completely obsoletes WV and most of ZBLS. Assuming OP is sufficiently committed to eventually learning full 1LLL, F2L algs are the only useful thing you listed here. (That said, no offence, LukasCubes, but my money would be on you giving up within a year.)

Why spend 3+ more moves in last slot to force EO/CO, when you can just spend 1-2 more moves to do 1LLL instead? The only advantage of PLL as a 1LLL subset is that it's usually something that's practised _much_ more than the other 1LLL cases, which means that you'll be more fluent with the algs and recognition, but in the super long run it doesn't make sense to prioritise PLL because the algs aren't even that much better. Same for ZBLL. Honestly, the only things that are worth avoiding in 1LLL are the 4-flip and maybe the opposite-flip EO subsets.

(This is from a theoretical standpoint and I really need to emphasise the "super long run" part of it. It's something that's maybe relevant if OP still sees himself cubing five years? ten years? later. Practically speaking, ZBLS and the easier WV cases will still have a positive impact _now_.)


----------



## qwr (Nov 4, 2020)

xyzzy said:


> 1LLL subsumes ZBLL, and it also completely obsoletes WV and most of ZBLS. Assuming OP is sufficiently committed to eventually learning full 1LLL, F2L algs are the only useful thing you listed here. (That said, no offence, LukasCubes, but my money would be on you giving up within a year.)



I know that. And I would be a betting man on no one ever learning full 1LLL.


----------



## sqAree (Nov 4, 2020)

qwr said:


> I know that. And I would be a betting man on no one ever learning full 1LLL.


Some people are already close, I think it's safe to assume that several people will learn it in the next decade or so.


----------



## tx789 (Nov 4, 2020)

WoowyBaby said:


> I'm sorry if this is in the wrong forum thread, but considering your goal of learning a large alg set (3915), I thought my idea is relevant and useful to your endevour, and this is quite a new thread so there are active people that can respond to my thoughts.
> 
> So recently, I have not been cubing. At all. I did it for a while, like 2 years in my life and it was a great time, but I've moved on to other interests, specifically, learning Japanese. I literally immerse 24/7 and I'm actually listening to a TV show on my mp3 player as I am writing this. I'm serious about this haha. anyway, what I'm trying to get to is I have been using Anki in my language learning journey- and I realized it is an incredibly useful resource for memorizing a large alg set such as 1LLL.
> 
> ...


Honestly anki isn't that good for 1lll you'd want a trainer like bestsiteever.ru has for zbll it's far better for this case.

Anki is useful for drilling 3 style since a letter pair is what it is based off.

Also he should gen his own algs for this. So using anki means making your own deck.


----------



## Nir1213 (Nov 4, 2020)

xyzzy said:


> By extrapolation, clearly it'll only take one week to learn full 1LLL!
> 
> 
> Unless you're going out of your way to somehow avoid repeated cases, you're really looking at around 32000 solves (see: coupon collector's problem) to get every 1LLL (except skip/H perm/pure 4-flip/4-flip H) at least once.
> ...


uhh CubeHead lol


----------



## LukasCubes (Nov 4, 2020)

xyzzy said:


> By extrapolation, clearly it'll only take one week to learn full 1LLL!
> 
> 
> Unless you're going out of your way to somehow avoid repeated cases, you're really looking at around 32000 solves (see: coupon collector's problem) to get every 1LLL (except skip/H perm/pure 4-flip/4-flip H) at least once.
> ...


crazy but true


qwr said:


> I know that. And I would be a betting man on no one ever learning full 1LLL.


i will be the first at 203- or 2040ish


sqAree said:


> Some people are already close, I think it's safe to assume that several people will learn it in the next decade or so.


i totally agree


tx789 said:


> Honestly anki isn't that good for 1lll you'd want a trainer like bestsiteever.ru has for zbll it's far better for this case.
> 
> Anki is useful for drilling 3 style since a letter pair is what it is based off.
> 
> Also he should gen his own algs for this. So using anki means making your own deck.


i have been using bestsiteever.ru since before full 3LLL


Nir1213 said:


> uhh CubeHead lol


yeah i have no idea what the heck you are talking about but ok whatever you do you


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## Nir1213 (Nov 4, 2020)

LukasCubes said:


> yeah i have no idea what the heck you are talking about but ok whatever you do you


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## LukasCubes (Nov 5, 2020)

Nir1213 said:


>


oh yeah i dont watched it like month ago or something. I forgot about that lol


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## Tao Yu (Nov 5, 2020)

People seem to assume that big algsets have to be constantly reviewed in order for one to retain the algs but I think it's often also possible to just learn them really really well at the start - to the point where you'll remember them even without regular reviews. 

I know that this is possible for ZBLL because this was my experience. If you look at the method I used to learn ZBLL, it was a very time efficient approach that had me recognizing and recalling algs at as fast a rate as possible. Since learning ZBLL I've taken a couple breaks from cubing where I did no reviews and basically didn't forget any algs (I temporarily forgot some, but usually was able to remember without looking up an alg sheet).

1LLL is obviously a lot bigger but I think you could still probably achieve something like this. I think if I was to learn full 1LLL, I'd treat it as learning ZBLL 8 times. I'd learn about 500 algs in two months, use the next month to review those algs to a extremely high standard, and then learn the next 500 algs in the following two months and so on.


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## LukasCubes (Nov 5, 2020)

Tao Yu said:


> People seem to assume that big algsets have to be constantly reviewed in order for one to retain the algs but I think it's often also possible to just learn them really really well at the start - to the point where you'll remember them even without regular reviews.
> 
> I know that this is possible for ZBLL because this was my experience. If you look at the method I used to learn ZBLL, it was a very time efficient approach that had me recognizing and recalling algs at as fast a rate as possible. Since learning ZBLL I've taken a couple breaks from cubing where I did no reviews and basically didn't forget any algs (I temporarily forgot some, but usually was able to remember without looking up an alg sheet).
> 
> 1LLL is obviously a lot bigger but I think you could still probably achieve something like this. I think if I was to learn full 1LLL, I'd treat it as learning ZBLL 8 times. I'd learn about 500 algs in two months, use the next month to review those algs to a extremely high standard, and then learn the next 500 algs in the following two months and so on.


thats a nice strategy to use i might use that.


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## abunickabhi (Nov 5, 2020)

Recognition of the case and Fingertricks are more important than learning new algsets and exploring new improvements in the method.


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## Nir1213 (Nov 5, 2020)

abunickabhi said:


> Recognition of the case and Fingertricks are more important than learning new algsets and exploring new improvements in the method.


I mean the fingertricks arent necessary but ok.


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## BenChristman1 (Nov 5, 2020)

Nir1213 said:


> I mean the fingertricks arent necessary but ok.


I’m going to let somebody else rant about why this is 110% wrong.


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## Nir1213 (Nov 5, 2020)

BenChristman1 said:


> I’m going to let somebody else rant about why this is 110% wrong.


not 110% wrong for @LukasCubes.
he just has to learn the algs, not speedsolve them. He has said that 29388127489623946 times.


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## Tao Yu (Nov 5, 2020)

With enough experience, you should be able to figure out the fingertricks for most algs in like 0-10 seconds. 

Some of you may know that I learned most of ZBLL on a virtual cube, meaning I didn't learn the fingertricks. If you watch the videos I made during the period where I was learning ZBLL however, you'll see I was able to fingertrick most algs pretty well in solves (even one-handed). This is because I already had the experience of learning full OLL, PLL, TTLL and 3-style, giving me the ability to figure out fingertricks really quickly. 

I think a lot of beginners place a lot of importance on muscle memory and learning fingertricks because they're used having to spend a lot of time to figure out how to fingertrick algs due to inexperience, and having to drill algs for a long time to master them due to unfamiliarity with certain fingertricks. It is worth knowing that with a lot of practice learning algs, one will have a different kind of experience.


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## Nir1213 (Nov 5, 2020)

Tao Yu said:


> With enough experience, you should be able to figure out the fingertricks for most algs in like 0-10 seconds.
> 
> Some of you may know that I learned most of ZBLL on a virtual cube, meaning I didn't learn the fingertricks. If you watch the videos I made during the period where I was learning ZBLL however, you'll see I was able to fingertrick most algs pretty well in solves (even one-handed). This is because I already had the experience of learning full OLL, PLL, TTLL and 3-style, giving me the ability to figure out fingertricks really quickly.
> 
> I think a lot of beginners place a lot of importance on muscle memory and learning fingertricks because they're used having to spend a lot of time to figure out how to fingertrick algs due to inexperience, and having to drill algs for a long time to master them due to unfamiliarity with certain fingertricks. It is worth knowing that with a lot of practice learning algs, one will have a different kind of experience.


yup he does not have to work on the fingertricks, as probably he will figure it out. he should just learn the algs and then practice them to not forget and to practice his recog, and by doing that he would probably figure out the fingertricks for them.


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## LukasCubes (Nov 5, 2020)

Nir1213 said:


> yup he does not have to work on the fingertricks, as probably he will figure it out. he should just learn the algs and then practice them to not forget and to practice his recog, and by doing that he would probably figure out the fingertricks for them.


i will know the fingertricks once i know the alg. I plan to learn at least 3 more algs by the end of friday


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## WoowyBaby (Nov 5, 2020)

LukasCubes said:


> i will know the fingertricks once i know the alg. I plan to learn at least 3 more algs by the end of friday


With your current rate of alg learning it's going to take more time than you have left in your entire life to learn 1LLL....
You're really never going to get there if it's just 3 algs on one day or another.

Please know I'm not trying to be rude, I just want you to consider that you have to change your process of learning algs and be learning 20+ algs every single day in order to learn all of it in a resonable time.


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## LukasCubes (Nov 5, 2020)

WoowyBaby said:


> With your current rate of alg learning it's going to take more time than you have left in your entire life to learn 1LLL....
> You're really never going to get there if it's just 3 algs on one day or another.
> 
> Please know I'm not trying to be rude, I just want you to consider that you have to change your process of learning algs and be learning 20+ algs every single day in order to learn all of it in a resonable time.


no this week is more unusual that usual so this weekend im going back to learning at least 10 algs a week


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## WoowyBaby (Nov 5, 2020)

LukasCubes said:


> no this week is more unusual that usual so this weekend im going back to learning at least 10 algs a week


Still, 10 algs a week works out to over 7 years (for 1LLL).


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## LukasCubes (Nov 5, 2020)

WoowyBaby said:


> Still, 10 algs a week works out to over 7 years (for 1LLL).


ok i will be a junior in college by that time if i do 10 algs a week. I am 14 right now. I will be 21 in 7 years so yeah i still like that pace.


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## TheSlykrCubr (Nov 5, 2020)

are you just going around learning whatever alg catches your eye? cause i'd say learn them in subsets. Tripod LL is 58 algs, so you could do that first

it's probably better to learn in subsets, cause instead of directly recognising the algorithm, you can filter out quite a lot of cases by recognising the subset


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## LukasCubes (Nov 5, 2020)

TheSlykrCubr said:


> are you just going around learning whatever alg catches your eye? cause i'd say learn them in subsets. Tripod LL is 58 algs, so you could do that first
> 
> it's probably better to learn in subsets, cause instead of directly recognising the algorithm, you can filter out quite a lot of cases by recognising the subset


i am trust me i am just trying to see what ZBLL my COLL algs are in on the 1LLL pdf


----------



## xyzzy (Nov 6, 2020)

Nir1213 said:


> (video)


Doing 2000 solves in one sitting, _once_, is not the same as regularly doing 2000-solve sessions.



Tao Yu said:


> People seem to assume that big algsets have to be constantly reviewed in order for one to retain the algs but I think it's often also possible to just learn them really really well at the start - to the point where you'll remember them even without regular reviews.
> 
> I know that this is possible for ZBLL because this was my experience. If you look at the method I used to learn ZBLL, it was a very time efficient approach that had me recognizing and recalling algs at as fast a rate as possible. Since learning ZBLL I've taken a couple breaks from cubing where I did no reviews and basically didn't forget any algs (I temporarily forgot some, but usually was able to remember without looking up an alg sheet).


That's interesting.

My personal experience, having learnt ZBLL algs a lot more haphazardly, is that if I don't review regularly (or at least do lots of solves regularly), I'll find myself mixing some algs together. Algs that have similar triggers sometimes just blend into each other in my mind and I mess those up a fair amount. Quite a few times recently I've had to jog my memory by looking the algs up again. Now I'm wondering if it's too late to relearn ZBLL properly (and perhaps actually finish it this time).


----------



## Tao Yu (Nov 6, 2020)

xyzzy said:


> That's interesting.
> 
> My personal experience, having learnt ZBLL algs a lot more haphazardly, is that if I don't review regularly (or at least do lots of solves regularly), I'll find myself mixing some algs together. Algs that have similar triggers sometimes just blend into each other in my mind and I mess those up a fair amount. Quite a few times recently I've had to jog my memory by looking the algs up again. Now I'm wondering if it's too late to relearn ZBLL properly (and perhaps actually finish it this time).



Yeah I know a lot of people who learned ZBLL who have had this experience too. I'd guess there would probably be some big differences in how we approached learning and reviewing the algs. I think the most important factor that led me to remembering my algs better than some other people is that my learning approach was completely focused on testing myself on random algs at as fast a rate as possible. For those who are not so familiar with my approach, I think the most important points are the following:


I would never learn an alg in isolation. This is simply because algs do not exist in isolation - getting confused with other algs is a part of learning algs. So I'd either learn a set of 12 algs or 8 algs or none at all.
My practice always consisted of testing myself on randomly selected algs and forcing myself to recall them without any help. Essentially forcing my brain to execute the mental process that you would have to execute during real solves. There was no difference in the way I initially learned the algs and the way I reviewed. I never went through an alg sheet and studied the algs in order - it was straight to testing myself on the algs in similar conditions to real solves.
Whenever I didn't know an alg I was able to instantly look up the alg (by pressing space on my trainer). People who use other trainers may not have been able to do this. For example, if you forget an alg while using Roman's trainer you have to look it up in a sheet. In my opinion, it is not good to have to switch your mind between different tasks like this.
I learned the algs on a virtual cube (see my video on this if you're not sure what this entails). I know that a lot of people don't like learning algs on virtual cubes, but I believe it was a very important reason as to why I was able to retain my algs so well. The removal of the need to scramble has two crucial advantages: First, it allowed me to test myself on about two or three times as many algs in the same amount of time, and second, it completely removed the need to switch my mind between different tasks - I could be 100% focused on uploading the algs into my brain for the entire duration of my training session.
It was important for me that when learning an alg, I would have the actual case in front of me, rather than performing an alg on a solved cube. This helps a lot for memorizing the moves of the alg because you can sort of see all the blocks merging together and eventually becoming solved. Thus I know I'm doing the right moves if it feels like the case is kind of solving itself. A lot of the time this means that if I get the first trigger correct, the rest of the alg feels intuitive. It is easy to ensure this happens for all algs by using the virtual cube on my trainer. 
I did not use muscle memory to memorize algs - I always memorized the moves first. From my experience, algs memorized with muscle memory will always be forgotten after a break. Remembering stuff using your brain is always more reliable.
I would be interested in knowing what the differences between the ways we learn algs are, and how they may have contributed to our different experiences with recalling algs.


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## Nir1213 (Nov 6, 2020)

xyzzy said:


> Doing 2000 solves in one sitting, _once_, is not the same as regularly doing 2000-solve sessions.
> 
> 
> That's interesting.
> ...


oops well then i mean in one sitting lol



Tao Yu said:


> Yeah I know a lot of people who learned ZBLL who have had this experience too. I'd guess there would probably be some big differences in how we approached learning and reviewing the algs. I think the most important factor that led me to remembering my algs better than some other people is that my learning approach was completely focused on testing myself on random algs at as fast a rate as possible. For those who are not so familiar with my approach, I think the most important points are the following:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I mean muscle memory is useful, if you just train your muscle memory, come back, recall the muscle memory again, and do it again and again until the alg becomes subcounscious with muscle memory and you wont even think about it.


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## Tao Yu (Nov 6, 2020)

Nir1213 said:


> I mean muscle memory is useful, if you just train your muscle memory, come back, recall the muscle memory again, and do it again and again until the alg becomes subcounscious with muscle memory and you wont even think about it.



I am well familiar with the process of learning algs by muscle memory. In my experience muscle memory will still almost always be forgotten after a long enough break.

Think about it like this: nobody would use muscle memory alone to memorize a password. Muscle memory is a technique that is simply not reliable enough for the task. While many people would know their passwords by muscle memory just so that they can type them faster, it's pretty much necessary to remember them in another way as well, such as simple mnemonics.

I do use muscle memory, but only if I have also memorized the moves of the alg first. Whenever I've taken a break, it has consistently been the case that I forget my muscle memory, but remember the moves.


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## Nir1213 (Nov 6, 2020)

Tao Yu said:


> I am well familiar with the process of learning algs by muscle memory. In my experience muscle memory will still almost always be forgotten after a long enough break.
> 
> Think about it like this: nobody would use muscle memory alone to memorize a password. Muscle memory is a technique that is simply not reliable enough for the task. While many people would know their passwords by muscle memory just so that they can type them faster, it's pretty much necessary to remember them in another way as well, such as simple mnemonics.
> 
> I do use muscle memory, but only if I have also memorized the moves of the alg first. Whenever I've taken a break, it has consistently been the case that I forget my muscle memory, but remember the moves.


i mean if it happens that to you doesnt mean it happens to others, but good point.
Funnily i have almost all the letters in my keyboard in my muscle memory

hello drkness my old friend
the sentence i did was without looking.
Missed the A tho.


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## Tao Yu (Nov 6, 2020)

Nir1213 said:


> i mean if it happens that to you doesnt mean it happens to others, but good point.
> Funnily i have almost all the letters in my keyboard in my muscle memory
> 
> hello drkness my old friend
> ...



Keep in mind I specified that one is likely to forget muscle memory _after a break_. Being able to touch type is normal since you're likely to have to do it every day.

It is true that not everyone will have the same experience as me, but I would bet that when it comes to larger algsets such as ZBLL most people would agree with me. When it comes to small sets such as PLL and OLL, yeah I think a lot of people could remember the muscle memory even after a break.


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## LukasCubes (Nov 10, 2020)

Week 3 is here, nothing much from last week sccomplished, ima go learn some algs now lol.


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## SpeedCuberSUB30 (Nov 10, 2020)

LukasCubes said:


> Week 3 is here, nothing much from last week sccomplished, ima go learn some algs now lol.


I've been looking at your progress all this time and I have only 1 thing to tell you. It is not worth to learn 1LLL in 1 go. They have been divided into subsets(like Tripod, ZBLL, etc.) and then into further subsets(like Pi,H,etc.) for a reason. The people who divided them into subsets were/are not mad they did it for a reason.
And your average is 18-ish and 1LLL is not worth at 18 average. Start 1LLL learning when u reach sub-10.
And also let the algs develop more, let them get better
For the time being I would recommend to get better at F2L and Cross and drill all your algs.
Also check out @Zubin Park 's guide to become sub-x till then


I know you have said this


LukasCubes said:


> actually that number is 5428776672646939786752758742674574575229456582956555876576854785025717766471814631468648768748487784781347808645848787554675467548748675854487458675478547865486748675687147782258527154105478657865876144676476547675867678687678248676 times


times but still this was my advice. Your wish to listen or not. So many people are telling you this but you aren't listening.


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## BenChristman1 (Nov 10, 2020)

SpeedCuberSUB30 said:


> I've been looking at your progress all this time and I have only 1 thing to tell you. It is not worth to learn 1LLL in 1 go. They have been divided into subsets(like Tripod, ZBLL, etc.) and then into further subsets(like Pi,H,etc.) for a reason. The people who divided them into subsets were/are not mad they did it for a reason.
> And your average is 18-ish and 1LLL is not worth at 18 average. Start 1LLL learning when u reach sub-10.
> And also let the algs develop more, let them get better
> For the time being I would recommend to get better at F2L and Cross and drill all your algs.
> ...


But he “likes learning algs.”  


Spoiler



That was sarcasm in case you couldn’t tell. I agree with you completely.


----------



## SpeedCuberSUB30 (Nov 10, 2020)

BenChristman1 said:


> But he “likes learning algs.”
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> ...


Yeah I told him once in case he doesn't want to listen his wish entirely but the quest is idiotic.


----------



## xyzzy (Nov 10, 2020)

SpeedCuberSUB30 said:


> I've been looking at your progress all this time and I have only 1 thing to tell you. It is not worth to learn 1LLL in 1 go. They have been divided into subsets(like Tripod, ZBLL, etc.) and then into further subsets(like Pi,H,etc.) for a reason. The people who divided them into subsets were/are not mad they did it for a reason.


The 1LLL sheet OP is learning from is _already_ categorised by OLL and corner permutation, and he's said he's going through the sheet in order, so yes, he is already learning by nicely-categorised subsets.

Possibly not the most meaningful ones, and definitely not the optimal order to maximise benefit, but you seem to be thinking OP is going at 1LLL in a completely random order and no, it's not nearly that haphazard.



SpeedCuberSUB30 said:


> And your average is 18-ish and 1LLL is not worth at 18 average. Start 1LLL learning when u reach sub-10.
> And also let the algs develop more, let them get better
> For the time being I would recommend to get better at F2L and Cross and drill all your algs.


This is clearly a multi-year endeavour. There's more than enough time to get better at F2L and cross _while also learning 1LLL algs_.

Actually, don't take it from me; take it from Jabari:
_context: this person probably averages 20-25_


/u/Aidoni05 on Reddit said:


> Hey Jabari, I'm somebody who loves learning algs for 1lll cases, but most other cubers I talk to say I shouldn't even think about it until I'm much faster. What do you think I should do, should I dedicate all my time to fundamentals or should I keep learning algs?





Jabari said:


> It's ignorance combined with laziness. Pople don't appreciate the deication it takes to master algs, so they think that they can just wait until they're faster not knowing the earlier you start the better you'll be when your actually fast af.



(I don't entirely agree with this, for the record, but let's say I'm playing devil's advocate here.)


----------



## LukasCubes (Nov 10, 2020)

Ok I do agree it is worthless to learn full 1LLL but i LOOOOOOOVE learning algs so ima keep goin.


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## SpeedCuberSUB30 (Nov 11, 2020)

LukasCubes said:


> Ok I do agree it is worthless to learn full 1LLL but i LOOOOOOOVE learning algs so ima keep goin.


Then learn COLL and WV and all the useful alg sets


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## LukasCubes (Nov 11, 2020)

SpeedCuberSUB30 said:


> Then learn COLL and WV and all the useful alg sets


i already know full COLL and like 2 WV but ima hold off on WV until i get bored with 1LLL and take a day or 2 off to learn something else like WV. I am taking a few days off the quest right now to gen algs for an alg set I am working on.



xyzzy said:


> The 1LLL sheet OP is learning from is _already_ categorised by OLL and corner permutation, and he's said he's going through the sheet in order, so yes, he is already learning by nicely-categorised subsets.
> 
> Possibly not the most meaningful ones, and definitely not the optimal order to maximise benefit, but you seem to be thinking OP is going at 1LLL in a completely random order and no, it's not nearly that haphazard.
> 
> ...


I average 16-20 on 3x3. If it was me back in the summer, that'd be 20-25 but i am currently 16-20 right now


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## xyzzy (Nov 11, 2020)

LukasCubes said:


> I average 16-20 on 3x3. If it was me back in the summer, that'd be 20-25 but i am currently 16-20 right now


What on earth is up with you people quoting the entirety of multi-part posts instead of just the part you want to reply to?

Anyway, the "context" was meant to describe the person who asked the question on Reddit, not you.


----------



## LukasCubes (Nov 11, 2020)

xyzzy said:


> What on earth is up with you people quoting the entirety of multi-part posts instead of just the part you want to reply to?
> 
> Anyway, the "context" was meant to describe the person who asked the question on Reddit, not you.


Yeah i'm too lazy for that.


----------



## EngiNerdBrian (Nov 11, 2020)

LukasCubes said:


> Yeah i'm too lazy for that.


But not too lazy to learn 3916 algs that won’t benefit your solves?!? I give this quest a few months tops before it dies out.


----------



## LukasCubes (Nov 11, 2020)

EngiNerdBrian said:


> But not too lazy to learn 3916 algs that won’t benefit your solves?!? I give this quest a few months tops before it dies out.


maybe lol. I'm just taking a few days off to work on something else. I willstill learn algs but not as much.


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## SpeedCuberSUB30 (Nov 11, 2020)

LukasCubes said:


> maybe lol. I'm just taking a few days off to work on something else. I willstill learn algs but not as much.


This is gonna keep happening and eventually you will quit this stupid quest


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## Llewelys (Nov 11, 2020)

I don't know if you've seen it, but this video should interest you:





Jabari Nuruddin is one of the closest persons to know 1LLL


----------



## LukasCubes (Nov 11, 2020)

SpeedCuberSUB30 said:


> This is gonna keep happening and eventually you will quit this stupid quest


no i wont quit


Llewelys said:


> I don't know if you've seen it, but this video should interest you:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


i will watch it later


----------



## Tao Yu (Nov 11, 2020)

SpeedCuberSUB30 said:


> I've been looking at your progress all this time and I have only 1 thing to tell you. It is not worth to learn 1LLL in 1 go. They have been divided into subsets(like Tripod, ZBLL, etc.) and then into further subsets(like Pi,H,etc.) for a reason. The people who divided them into subsets were/are not mad they did it for a reason.
> @Zubin Park 's guide to become sub-x till then
> 
> 
> ...



Actually, you should definitely not assume that the people who originally divided 1LLL into subsets always knew what they were doing. They developed many of their theories at a time when not many people had the practical experience of learning large algsets, and definitely had some wrong ideas about things like recognition.

Learning by subsets is a very good approach, but is definitely not the only option. Learning in a random order is actually quite reasonable. Simon Kalhofer, a full ZBLL user endorses this method of learning ZBLL, which uses a random order (using Anki).

I would also add that the standard subsets that you mentioned such as Tripod, Pi and H aren't necessarily the only reasonable subsets to consider. I think you could be creative here and define many reasonable subsets for yourself. For example, algs which are a combination of sune+another alg, cases which have checkerboard patterns on top, algs which have 1x1x2 blocks, algs with 1x1x3 blocks etc.

I find that those who haven't actually had the experience of learning a lot of algs seem to have a idea that there are certain rules you have to follow to learn algs effectively. The fact of the matter is that there are many decent approaches to learning large algsets, and it's not so easy to say that one is better than all the rest. This does not mean that there are no bad approaches - there are many - however, if your method of learning is well thought out, and you can prove to yourself that it's more effective for you than other approaches (and not just because you're bad at the other approaches), you should be prepared to go against the common wisdom and stick to your guns.

(disclaimer: I have not looked at what LukasCubes' learning method is and can't comment on whether it's good or bad. The main point of this post is to argue that sometimes you need to be willing to go against the grain and think for yourself.)


----------



## FJT97 (Nov 11, 2020)

Tao Yu said:


> Actually, you should definitely not assume that the people who originally divided 1LLL into subsets always knew what they were doing. They developed many of their theories at a time when not many people had the practical experience of learning large algsets, and definitely had some wrong ideas about things like recognition.
> 
> Learning by subsets is a very good approach, but is definitely not the only option. Learning in a random order is actually quite reasonable. Simon Kalhofer, a full ZBLL user endorses this method of learning ZBLL, which uses a random order (using Anki).
> 
> ...




Lol.
First time on the forum in ages and directly found my anki thread quoted 

@LukasCubes I'd highly recommend the anki approach, at least youll get the best zblls algs there. i spent literally years to gather the best algs.


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## LukasCubes (Nov 11, 2020)

FJT97 said:


> Lol.
> First time on the forum in ages and directly found my anki thread quoted
> 
> @LukasCubes I'd highly recommend the anki approach, at least youll get the best zblls algs there. i spent literally years to gather the best algs.


yeah i already tried that and because of how my PC works, i cant do anything there


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## TheSlykrCubr (Nov 11, 2020)

@Tao Yu how did you learn zbll?, would like to learn it someday.

would you recommend learning full coll ( with S and AS) before going onto zbll or should i just start learning it directly?


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## Tao Yu (Nov 11, 2020)

TheSlykrCubr said:


> @Tao Yu how did you learn zbll?, would like to learn it someday.










TheSlykrCubr said:


> would you recommend learning full coll ( with S and AS) before going onto zbll or should i just start learning it directly?



I think COLL just helps with recognition. If you already know CMLL or 2x2 CLL, I feel that you don't gain much from learning COLL.

You can't really make a wrong choice. If you find you are somehow struggling because you don't know a COLL, just go learn it.


----------



## Hazel (Nov 11, 2020)

xyzzy said:


> My personal experience, having learnt ZBLL algs a lot more haphazardly, is that if I don't review regularly (or at least do lots of solves regularly), I'll find myself mixing some algs together. Algs that have similar triggers sometimes just blend into each other in my mind and I mess those up a fair amount. Quite a few times recently I've had to jog my memory by looking the algs up again.



Yep. I learned the entire U set of ZBLL in one day quite comfortably, retaining all but 4 algs the next morning. But I didn't practice enough, so within a couple weeks I had forgotten practically all of what I had learned. Likewise, I learned Pi and L (and I believe I did so well), and I practiced them both basically nonstop for a long time—but once I stopped practicing, I slowly forgot almost everything.


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## Nir1213 (Nov 12, 2020)

Tao Yu said:


> You can't really make a wrong choice. If you find you are somehow struggling because you don't know a COLL, just go learn it.


yes it helps to learn ZBLL if your COLL recog is like *snap.*


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## LukasCubes (Nov 12, 2020)

Nir1213 said:


> yes it helps to learn ZBLL if your COLL recog is like *snap.*


yes


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## FJT97 (Nov 14, 2020)

LukasCubes said:


> yeah i already tried that and because of how my PC works, i cant do anything there


Hows that? Any way i can help there?


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## LukasCubes (Nov 14, 2020)

FJT97 said:


> Hows that? Any way i can help there?


no sorry.

EVERYONE I HAVE AN IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT! At the beginning of next week, I will rename this qest to "Quest to Learn Full ZBLL. Starting Monday (start of week 4), I will use bestsiteever.ru ZBLL alg names to learn them all. I sill just use the full 1LLL pf to learn the alg. After ZBLL, I will go change the name to ELL. After that, Tripod-LL. Then we will see where we go from there.


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## Nir1213 (Nov 14, 2020)

LukasCubes said:


> EVERYONE I HAVE AN IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT! At the beginning of next week, I will rename this qest to "Quest to Learn Full ZBLL. Starting Monday (start of week 4), I will use bestsiteever.ru ZBLL alg names to learn them all. I sill just use the full 1LLL pf to learn the alg. After ZBLL, I will go change the name to ELL. After that, Tripod-LL. Then we will see where we go from there.


bruh but ok


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## LukasCubes (Nov 14, 2020)

Nir1213 said:


> bruh but ok


eventually it will come back to 1LLL when no set is left.


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## Deleted member 55877 (Nov 14, 2020)

Lukas said in an earlier thread that he simply enjoys learning algs. I guess some people like learning algorithms.


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## FJT97 (Nov 16, 2020)

LukasCubes said:


> EVERYONE I HAVE AN IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT! At the beginning of next week, I will rename this qest to "Quest to Learn Full ZBLL. Starting Monday (start of week 4), I will use bestsiteever.ru ZBLL alg names to learn them all. I sill just use the full 1LLL pf to learn the alg. After ZBLL, I will go change the name to ELL. After that, Tripod-LL. Then we will see where we go from there.


On that note, it might be worth it to start with zzll. With zzll and phasing you can always do 1lll. might make solving more fun than only knowing random zblls.


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## Jam88 (Nov 16, 2020)

Judging by his past threads, he'll either succeed fast, or quit. (personally, I'm going for succeed fast)


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## Nir1213 (Nov 16, 2020)

Jam88 said:


> Judging by his past threads, he'll either succeed fast, or quit. (personally, I'm going for succeed fast)


i agree with you. Hes got sum guts to try to learn 3916 algs.


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## LukasCubes (Nov 16, 2020)

Week 4 is here so lets start learning some algs


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## LukasCubes (Nov 17, 2020)

Ladies and gentlemen i have no idea if i will learn an alg. I dropped my MAIN 3x3 in the car when my mom and i were in it. The cube landed under the car and my mom and I didnt realize it and the cube got rolled over. I would fix it but the pieces were formed into different shapes due to the tires that weigh huundreds of pounds. I will use my back up main for learning algs tho so dont worry.


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## Nir1213 (Nov 17, 2020)

LukasCubes said:


> Ladies and gentlemen i have no idea if i will learn an alg. I dropped my MAIN 3x3 in the car when my mom and i were in it. The cube landed under the car and my mom and I didnt realize it and the cube got rolled over. I would fix it but the pieces were formed into different shapes due to the tires that weigh huundreds of pounds. I will use my back up main for learning algs tho so dont worry.


big OOF i feel sorry for you lol.


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## LukasCubes (Nov 18, 2020)

Guys I am actually ahead of the schedule. I have learned 4 algs in 3 days and I have alot more freetime now that i half to wake up early today. I will probably go back to learning 1 alg a day tomorrow and friday is i can (which I probably wont) so yeah its good to be ahead of the schedule.


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## DNF_Cuber (Nov 18, 2020)

LukasCubes said:


> Guys I am actually ahead of the schedule. I have learned 4 algs in 3 days and I have alot more freetime now that i half to wake up early today. I will probably go back to learning 1 alg a day tomorrow and friday is i can (which I probably wont) so yeah its good to be ahead of the schedule.


you realize that going 1 alg a day it will take you approximately 10.17 years.


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## LukasCubes (Nov 18, 2020)

DNF_Cuber said:


> you realize that going 1 alg a day it will take you approximately 10.17 years.


for full 1LLL maybe but it will only take a year for ZBLL


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## Tao Yu (Nov 18, 2020)

You should really learn more than one alg per day. If you genuinely like learning algs, it should be in your interest to get good at it. Learning to do 12 or 24 a day is very doable with practice, and ZBLL is a great set to use for this practice.

Also, as I mentioned before, I think it's a bad idea to learn algs in isolation. Being able to distinguish cases from similar ones is an important part of learning algs and you may find you don't quite learn to do this if you just learn one a day.


----------



## PetraPine (Nov 18, 2020)

Tao Yu said:


> You should really learn more than one alg per day. If you genuinely like learning algs, it should be in your interest to get good at it. Learning to do 12 or 24 a day is very doable with practice, and ZBLL is a great set to use for this practice.
> 
> Also, as I mentioned before, I think it's a bad idea to learn algs in isolation. Being able to distinguish cases from similar ones is an important part of learning algs and you may find you don't quite learn to do this if you just learn one a day.


by this point if you have learned full oll/pll and multiple ZBLLS you could do a set per day even
I recommend trying to do 1 (or almost 1)set per day and getting the muscle memory/memo down better the next day and than use the rest of that day to learn another set. its gonna take over a year to learn ZBLL and multiple years to learn 1LLL if you do 1 alg per day.
dam i didnt even see that posts above 10.17 years jeez.


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## LukasCubes (Nov 18, 2020)

Tao Yu said:


> You should really learn more than one alg per day. If you genuinely like learning algs, it should be in your interest to get good at it. Learning to do 12 or 24 a day is very doable with practice, and ZBLL is a great set to use for this practice.
> 
> Also, as I mentioned before, I think it's a bad idea to learn algs in isolation. Being able to distinguish cases from similar ones is an important part of learning algs and you may find you don't quite learn to do this if you just learn one a day.


well i do have alot of freetime so maybe i could try since next week i dit have school at all.


ObscureCuber said:


> by this point if you have learned full oll/pll and multiple ZBLLS you could do a set per day even
> I recommend trying to do 1 (or almost 1)set per day and getting the muscle memory/memo down better the next day and than use the rest of that day to learn another set. its gonna take over a year to learn ZBLL and multiple years to learn 1LLL if you do 1 alg per day.
> dam i didnt even see that posts above 10.17 years jeez.


yeah ZBLL is gonna be rough since i am doing the 60 drill and recognition but i will try to see what I can do. The goal for next week is gonna be 10 algs so i might boost that to 15 or 20 once it starts on Monday.


-For Everyone-
I learned 3 algs today but that might be it so yeah


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## FJT97 (Nov 19, 2020)

LukasCubes said:


> well i do have alot of freetime so maybe i could try since next week i dit have school at all.
> 
> yeah ZBLL is gonna be rough since i am doing the 60 drill and recognition but i will try to see what I can do. The goal for next week is gonna be 10 algs so i might boost that to 15 or 20 once it starts on Monday.
> 
> ...



Do you learn the algs randomly? For ZBLL you could most of the time learn the mirror, inverse and inverse mirror of an alg. that would be 4 algs at once.

Would be faster and also possibly easier to wrap your head around.


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## LukasCubes (Nov 19, 2020)

FJT97 said:


> Do you learn the algs randomly? For ZBLL you could most of the time learn the mirror, inverse and inverse mirror of an alg. that would be 4 algs at once.
> 
> Would be faster and also possibly easier to wrap your head around.


i am currently working on the U 2GLLs. I am working on the 2GLL algs. If anything that aint 2GLL pops up, its from a twitch stream.


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## LukasCubes (Nov 30, 2020)

Hi there Hello I am back to learning algs yay.


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## DNF_Cuber (Nov 30, 2020)

DNF_Cuber said:


> you realize that going 1 alg a day it will take you approximately 10.17 years.


heck, accounting for leap years it will take like 10.16 years!


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## LukasCubes (Nov 30, 2020)

DNF_Cuber said:


> heck, accounting for leap years it will take like 10.16 years!


10 years for 1LLL. 1-2 years for ZBLL. I think im going at a steadily pace.


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## LukasCubes (Jan 4, 2021)

Ok so im back from my ban so this thread is back. I am completely online for school for the next 2 weeks so I want to learn at least 10 algs this week. TBH ima probably learn way more algs since I havent learned a single alg in the 35 day ban I got.


----------



## Jam88 (Jan 4, 2021)

LukasCubes said:


> Ok so im back from my ban so this thread is back. I am completely online for school for the next 2 weeks so I want to learn at least 10 algs this week. TBH ima probably learn way more algs since I havent learned a single alg in the 35 day ban I got.


What did you get banned for?


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## Nir1213 (Jan 4, 2021)

Jam88 said:


> What did you get banned for?


idk but he said something about yruru, not sure though
@LukasCubes please read the rules to try not to get perma ban


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## Jam88 (Jan 4, 2021)

Nir1213 said:


> idk but he said something about yruru, not sure though
> @LukasCubes please read the rules to try not to get perma ban


Oh yeah, saw that in the accomplishment thread.


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## LukasCubes (Jan 4, 2021)

Jam88 said:


> Oh yeah, saw that in the accomplishment thread.


i put too manny ruRUs in YruRU and that got me banned for 35 days but im back and actually kinda the same person.


----------



## EngiNerdBrian (Jan 4, 2021)

LukasCubes said:


> I havent learned a single alg in the 35 day ban I got.


So much progress is being made towards this very realistic and achievable goal...


----------



## Andreas5204 (Jan 5, 2021)

If you want to learn a large alg set like 1LLL, I would recommend researching the memory palace system. I myself do not use it (yet! I'm working out a few things, then I'm going to use it to learn the rest of ZBLL) but a friend of mine from a Discord server is using this system to memorize ZBLL, and to great success. Memory palace systems are fantastic in many ways, and I can't really see anyone learning 1LLL in a timely manner without using it. Unless you're a god like Jabari.


----------



## qwr (Jan 5, 2021)

"I'm back"
oh no


----------



## Tao Yu (Jan 5, 2021)

> If you want to learn a large alg set like 1LLL, I would recommend researching the memory palace system. I myself do not use it (yet! I'm working out a few things, then I'm going to use it to learn the rest of ZBLL) but a friend of mine from a Discord server is using this system to memorize ZBLL, and to great success. Memory palace systems are fantastic in many ways, and I can't really see anyone learning 1LLL in a timely manner without using it. Unless you're a god like Jabari.



Without extra clarification, this advice is somewhat misleading. There are definitely ways of using memory palaces that I would argue are not good.

I've had a conversation with your friend on discord about this topic, and my conclusion was that his approach was reasonable; his idea is to associate images to common triggers found in algs so that algs can be encoded as several combined images. Note that this approach isn't totally exact - you don't have to encode the whole alg exactly - the images should be just enough to jog your memory.

I think a system where you remember the whole alg exactly by encoding every pair of moves in an alg into an image is overkill for ZBLL, and probably 1LLL too.

One thing that we discussed on discord about memory palaces is that when you actually use algs in solves, your recall process must be far more streamlined. During a solve there is no time to "visit" your memory palace in order to recall the alg. Seeing the case in front of you should immediately trigger the associated image in your brain, and that in turn must immediately trigger your memory of the moves of the alg. Here, it is worth noting that people like me don't use images for our algs, so my thought process goes directly from seeing the case to remembering the moves. So where you remember an image, the process should be instantaneous, i.e. the association between the image and the moves of the alg should be so strong that your brain pretty much treats them as the same thing.

I understand that people's brains work differently, so I don't want to say that this method is bad, but for me personally, the memory palace seems unnecessary. Simply memorizing the moves allows me to recall the moves quickly, and remember the algs long term, so having a memory palace containing all these algs, or having images associated with every alg carries no benefit for me.



> Memory palace systems are fantastic in many ways, and I can't really see anyone learning 1LLL in a timely manner without using it. Unless you're a god like Jabari.



Jabari isn't a god, and you shouldn't think of him as one. He worked hard in order to acquire his abilities, just as anyone else can. As far I know, I don't think he uses images or memory palaces, and this should rather be evidence in the opposite direction to your claim: his success shows that memory palaces are _probably_ unnecessary for memorizing algsets like 1LLL.


----------



## LukasCubes (Jan 5, 2021)

Andreas5204 said:


> If you want to learn a large alg set like 1LLL, I would recommend researching the memory palace system. I myself do not use it (yet! I'm working out a few things, then I'm going to use it to learn the rest of ZBLL) but a friend of mine from a Discord server is using this system to memorize ZBLL, and to great success. Memory palace systems are fantastic in many ways, and I can't really see anyone learning 1LLL in a timely manner without using it. Unless you're a god like Jabari.


I will look it up later


Tao Yu said:


> Without extra clarification, this advice is somewhat misleading. There are definitely ways of using memory palaces that I would argue are not good.
> 
> I've had a conversation with your friend on discord about this topic, and my conclusion was that his approach was reasonable; his idea is to associate images to common triggers found in algs so that algs can be encoded as several combined images. Note that this approach isn't totally exact - you don't have to encode the whole alg exactly - the images should be just enough to jog your memory.
> 
> ...


I will try it later. If I dont like it, I wont use it.



Tao Yu said:


> Jabari isn't a god, and you shouldn't think of him as one. He worked hard in order to acquire his abilities, just as anyone else can. As far I know, I don't think he uses images or memory palaces, and this should rather be evidence in the opposite direction to your claim: his success shows that memory palaces are _probably_ unnecessary for memorizing algsets like 1LLL.


I'm with you on this one


----------



## Andreas5204 (Jan 5, 2021)

Tao Yu said:


> One thing that we discussed on discord about memory palaces is that when you actually use algs in solves, your recall process must be far more streamlined. During a solve there is no time to "visit" your memory palace in order to recall the alg. Seeing the case in front of you should immediately trigger the associated image in your brain, and that in turn must immediately trigger your memory of the moves of the alg. Here, it is worth noting that people like me don't use images for our algs, so my thought process goes directly from seeing the case to remembering the moves. So where you remember an image, the process should be instantaneous, i.e. the association between the image and the moves of the alg should be so strong that your brain pretty much treats them as the same thing.


From what I understand, the memory palace is really only intended to be an intermediate memory method until you can instantly associate a case with its algorithm. So after you've memorized all of ZBLL, you still need to go in and train cases with a trainer.
The memory palace system is almost like an add-on to the traditional method of learning algs, since you can get by without it just fine. But memory palaces are known for being relatively long-term and fast to create.
Even if they aren't great for learning algs, memory palaces are really neat and have applications for lots of other areas, too. I was just trying to show LukasCubes that there is another option, even if it's not the best, for him to research on his own.
Also, I know Jabari isn't a god. I just think he's really cool. But just because he doesn't use memory palaces doesn't mean that someone else can't use them.


----------



## Tao Yu (Jan 5, 2021)

Andreas5204 said:


> From what I understand, the memory palace is really only intended to be an intermediate memory method until you can instantly associate a case with its algorithm. So after you've memorized all of ZBLL, you still need to go in and train cases with a trainer.
> The memory palace system is almost like an add-on to the traditional method of learning algs, since you can get by without it just fine. But memory palaces are known for being relatively long-term and fast to create.
> Even if they aren't great for learning algs, memory palaces are really neat and have applications for lots of other areas, too. I was just trying to show LukasCubes that there is another option, even if it's not the best, for him to research on his own.



Okay, we're not really in disagreement here. You'll see in my post I never said I believe memory palaces are never useful for alg learning, but just wanted to state a few things that one has to keep in mind before using them. 

I do think however that the fact that you eventually have to learn a second method for remembering ZBLL should make one question if it is really necessary. I think there's a decent chance that once you've finished learning all of the algs in a second way, you'll just never have to visit your memory palace again, and eventually you will forget everything that you put there (unless you maintain it). There is certainly no harm in having the memory palace, but if you're not going to use it eventually, you should wonder whether it was worth making in the first place.

It may be the case that memory palaces allow you to retain the memory longer, but again, I don't know how important that really is. If you train your algs really well you should be able to remember them long term. It also tends to be a lot easier to relearn algs than to learn them the first time, especially if you trained them a lot. 



Andreas5204 said:


> Also, I know Jabari isn't a god. I just think he's really cool. But just because he doesn't use memory palaces doesn't mean that someone else can't use them.



The purpose of my comment there was purely to disagree with the part where you said you couldn't see anyone learning 1LLL in a timely manner without memory palaces.

As I've said a few times, I'm not saying that memory palaces are useless for everyone. It's just that the reasons for using a palace that I've seen so far don't seem very compelling to me. So maybe there's just a reason out there that I'm just not aware of. 

I think memory palaces are good for specific things. They are amazing for structured data such as strings of long numbers or letters. However, in my personal experience, there are some things which it just doesn't work for. I used to think I would create huge memory palaces for memorizing stuff for exams, and Chinese characters, but found that stuff like flashcards are just way superior.


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## LukasCubes (Jan 6, 2021)

I crossed 100, now lets go up more


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## EngiNerdBrian (Jan 6, 2021)

LukasCubes said:


> I crossed 100, now lets go up more


100 additional algs since you started the quest or 100 total? 


LukasCubes said:


> Algs known 101/494. (Cases 1-12, 15, 25-26, 47, 49, 61, 73-84, 89-90, 97-98, 107-108, 109-110, 122, 134, 145-154, 155, 160, 169, 181, 193, 205, 220, 226, 237, 256, 266, 280, 289, 304, 309, 321, 331, 342, 353, 366, 383, 394, 404, 414, 426, 438, 455, 466 473-494)


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## LukasCubes (Jan 7, 2021)

EngiNerdBrian said:


> 100 additional algs since you started the quest or 100 total?


100 total, i havent learned as much algs today as i wanted but i was gone for most of the day


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## EngiNerdBrian (Jan 7, 2021)

LukasCubes said:


> This is where I will learn ZBLL. After I finish this in like a year, I will go to ELL which is under 30 algs and will be much easier.
> 
> Algs known 101/494. (Cases 1-12, 15, 25-26, 47, 49, 61, 73-84, 89-90, 97-98, 107-108, 109-110, 122, 134, 145-154, 155, 160, 169, 181, 193, 205, 220, 226, 237, 256, 266, 280, 289, 304, 309, 321, 331, 342, 353, 366, 383, 394, 404, 414, 426, 438, 455, 466 473-494)


So over the first 2.5 months of the quest you've FORGOTTEN 4 algs when compared to day 1?


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## LukasCubes (Jan 7, 2021)

EngiNerdBrian said:


> So over the first 2.5 months of the quest you've FORGOTTEN 4 algs when compared to day 1?


I never forgot any algs. Day 1 was back when it was called quest to learn full 1LLL. Of course its ZBLL now but I never forgot any algs.

ALRIGHT EVERYONE I have learned all L cases for 2GLL which is like 12 cases. Tomorrow I plan to recap all those algs ALL DAY


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## DNF_Cuber (Jan 7, 2021)

LukasCubes said:


> ALRIGHT EVERYONE I have learned all L cases for 2GLL which is like 12 cases. Tomorrow I plan to recap all those algs ALL DAY


wow 12  I bet nobody has ever learned that many in ONE DAY .


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## LukasCubes (Jan 7, 2021)

DNF_Cuber said:


> wow 12  I bet nobody has ever learned that many in ONE DAY .


i meant that 12 wasnt that many. I know you are being sarcastic


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## the dnf master (Jan 8, 2021)

LukasCubes said:


> i meant that 12 wasnt that many. I know you are being sarcastic


its still pretty good


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## LukasCubes (Jan 8, 2021)

the dnf master said:


> its still pretty good


thanks man, im more focused on recaping algs for this weekend. Today I recap the L 2GLL, tomorrow I will recap the U 2GLL, and Sunday I will recap the T 2GLL. Monday I will start learning the H 2GLL.


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## EngiNerdBrian (Jan 8, 2021)

LukasCubes said:


> thanks man, im more focused on recaping algs for this weekend. Today I recap the L 2GLL, tomorrow I will recap the U 2GLL, and Sunday I will recap the T 2GLL. Monday I will start learning the H 2GLL.


Is there some sort of trainer you are using? OLL and PLL trainers were essential for practicing recall when I was learning those alg sets


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## LukasCubes (Jan 8, 2021)

EngiNerdBrian said:


> Is there some sort of trainer you are using? OLL and PLL trainers were essential for practicing recall when I was learning those alg sets


www.bestsiteever.ru/zbll for recalling them and https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-kf9bSQwUEMFOkyuCuLZj9XNQLzkuk_L/view to learn the actual algs


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## LukasCubes (Jan 12, 2021)

Time to spam learn H 2GLL. That was unnecessary to say but its my only goal.


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## qwr (Jan 12, 2021)

I can learn like 2 algs in one day so you're doing pretty good


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## LukasCubes (Jan 13, 2021)

qwr said:


> I can learn like 2 algs in one day so you're doing pretty good


nice, thanks


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## LukasCubes (Feb 3, 2021)

My main 3x3 is missing so this quest is suspended


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## Jam88 (Feb 3, 2021)

LukasCubes said:


> My main 3x3 is missing so this quest is suspended


Again...


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## Rubuscu (Feb 3, 2021)

I think if you are willing to learn so much, it is better to memorize all algorithms to solve the cross on any scramble with good finger tricks. It will be a lot more useful. Or if you learnt both 1LLL as well as what I mentioned just now. It will be very very fast.


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## PetraPine (Feb 3, 2021)

LukasCubes said:


> My main 3x3 is missing so this quest is suspended


learn on keyboard like tao yu!


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## DNF_Cuber (Feb 3, 2021)

A Perm said:


> I think if you are willing to learn so much, it is better to memorize all algorithms to solve the cross on any scramble with good finger tricks.


there are like 31,000


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## PetraPine (Feb 3, 2021)

A Perm said:


> I think if you are willing to learn so much, it is better to memorize all algorithms to solve the cross on any scramble with good finger tricks. It will be a lot more useful. Or if you learnt both 1LLL as well as what I mentioned just now. It will be very very fast.


?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
cross doesn't need algs since its so easy to do efficiently intuitevely
and also it wouldn't be 31,000 it would be like 12 million or something
1LLL is a WAY WAY more usefull algset,
also if for some reason you used algorithmic cross (don't) you would constantly miss opportunities for XCROSS since because of the alg count there would be no time to inspect,recall, and see if there is an xcross.


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## DNF_Cuber (Feb 3, 2021)

ObscureCuber said:


> and also it wouldn't be 31,000 it would be like 12 million or something


oh yeah 31000 is a one move cross


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## LukasCubes (Feb 3, 2021)

Guys it took like an hour (not that long) so I will actually continue this quest tomorrow. Right now I am just recaping algs since I found my 3x3/


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## qwr (Feb 3, 2021)

ObscureCuber said:


> ?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
> cross doesn't need algs since its so easy to do efficiently intuitevely
> and also it wouldn't be 31,000 it would be like 12 million or something
> 1LLL is a WAY WAY more usefull algset,
> also if for some reason you used algorithmic cross (don't) you would constantly miss opportunities for XCROSS since because of the alg count there would be no time to inspect,recall, and see if there is an xcross.


I want to see a list of all possible cross solutions, just for the sake of doing it because we can


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## PetraPine (Feb 3, 2021)

qwr said:


> I want to see a list of all possible cross solutions, just for the sake of doing it because we can


this is dumb, a waste of time, and would take like a year+


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## qwr (Feb 3, 2021)

ObscureCuber said:


> this is dumb, a waste of time, and would take like a year+


ofc it's dumb, so it would be generated by a computer, like what was done for all 3 million 2x2 scrambles


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