# Dayan vs. V-Cube Patent Infringement



## izovire (Dec 16, 2010)

Hey everyone,

It looks like V-cube is claiming that the Dayan Guhong (and Lingyun) infringes their V-cube 3 Patent. A friend of mine noticed that his eBay listings of the Guhong had been stopped because of this issue.

Not too long ago they were disabling paypal accounts linked to sites that were selling Maru 4x4's... But stopping the Guhong? Why?

I'm a bit frustrated with this new issue, because it's a very hot selling item on my website. I have taken it off of my site because I can't afford a disabled account. I will look more into the patent, etc. 

So what do you guys think about this? Hmmmm...

Edit: Here is the video as mentioned:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zyitQFBIi7Q

And legal Patent that was also posted somewhere:
http://v-cubes.com/pdf/European_patent.pdf


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## Olji (Dec 16, 2010)

if guhong was released before 2008, then it would be vice-verse, and if it isnt, i would want the rule "first come first served" to apply...(lolz) hope it works out


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## theace (Dec 16, 2010)

Screw everything else. I think the guhong should live.


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## Drake (Dec 16, 2010)

Ya, the guhong is and lingyun are based on a 7x7 internal, but there are not close to be the same o.o. I thinked of that i wile ago, that v-cube would probly try that somme days, for jk, but din't think that they would really try.


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## aronpm (Dec 16, 2010)

Drake said:


> Ya, the guhong is and lingyun are based on a 7x7 internal


 
Can you provide evidence for this statement?


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## Pixel 6 (Dec 16, 2010)

Izovire actually found this out from me when we met-up tonight, as it hit me first...

The only cube I sell at the moment is the modified GuHong. I get a message from eBay saying that both of my auctions for the Ultimate Lubix GuHong have been removed at Verdes request for Patent Infringement.

From what we can tell, Verdes is going after the GuHong and the LingYun. There are only 3 listings left on eBay that sell either of those cubes.

I'm kind of irritated right now, so am going to keep this short. 
But basically know that this has happened within the past 12 hours, and it is going to be affecting all of you very soon. 


Close your eyes... imagine no more GuHongs, no more LingYuns, and while you're at it...no more new cubes at all in general... How long until they go after Alpha? Now burn the image of V-Cube in your brain. Because they are the ones that are going to destroy it for us all.

If you have the GuHong and LingYun for sale on your website site... you may want to look into taking precautions to protect yourself. Ebay and PayPal are partners, and based on how quick Verdes had eBay simply remove my, and others' listings, there seems there would be no problem in Verdes having PayPal freeze your account. Be mindful.

- Pixel -


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## FatBoyXPC (Dec 16, 2010)

Are you sure this is the case, izovire? I know that V-Cubes pretty much wants nothing to do with a 3x3, and Konstantinos had a talk with Seven Towns I believe it was and said they weren't going to be releasing any 3x3's. I realize this does not mean they haven't patented it, but I know that as of Aug 2010 he didn't want to produce any.

Edit: Didn't see your post, Pixel. Could you inquire if they are going to sell any 3x3's then? They haven't even shown them on their site like they did the 2x2, 4x4, and 6b. This is interesting.


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## kdawg123 (Dec 16, 2010)

If they did, they better make sure that they get their 3x3 out by the end of next year, or else people will be MAD.

I also wonder if they are going to go after the YJs, as they are direct copies.


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## izovire (Dec 16, 2010)

fatboyxpc said:


> Are you sure this is the case, izovire? I know that V-Cubes pretty much wants nothing to do with a 3x3, and Konstantinos had a talk with Seven Towns I believe it was and said they weren't going to be releasing any 3x3's. I realize this does not mean they haven't patented it, but I know that as of Aug 2010 he didn't want to produce any.


 
Yes, I heard about that too. 

I think what they're really going after is their patent, regardless if they're going to produce them or not... I'm pretty sure it has some relation to recent Copied cubes... 

You can take a look at eBay and find that most current auctions for the Guhong have been stopped by Verdes Innovation... While recently closed or sold guhongs not long ago, were just fine.


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## ~Adam~ (Dec 16, 2010)

I'm so glad I've got a dozen GuHongs if everyone is going to stop selling them.

So is it about time everyone boycotts the V company?

edit - is there somewhere we can view the Verdes patents?


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## chris w (Dec 16, 2010)

bit of a sticky situation by the sounds of it, but i feel thats its pretty selfish to get hold of a patent for something and then not produce it at all. if people at Verdes need money they should just release the larger sized cubes/6b. might have to try stock up on guhongs and fast, and get the cubeblackmarket going


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## Faran (Dec 16, 2010)

I don't think that the 3x3 design that V-Cube has doesn't look like a Guhong very much. But it is only a 3D model I've seen of the V-Cube 3 so can't be 100% sure though. And if they stop selling Guhongs, I'll be really mad, since I do need a new one! Actually I just need an edge piece but whatever...


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## o2gulo (Dec 16, 2010)

here ya go.

http://www.v-cubes.com/info/patent_trademarks.php


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## ~Adam~ (Dec 16, 2010)

Already looked there. I want details of there patents to see where they think GuHong's infringe upon them.


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## Pixel 6 (Dec 16, 2010)

Here's what I got from eBay that kind of started it all...



Spoiler



Dear speakerdamage33 

You recently listed the following listing:

120640305552 - The Ultimate Lubix GuHong - DaYan 3x3 Cube BLACK
120657997536 - The Ultimate Lubix GuHong - DaYan 3x3 Cube WHITE


Your listing has been removed. 

Your item was removed because of a request we received from Verdes Innovation S.A., a member of our Verified Rights Owner Program (VeRO), asking us to remove the item for:

- Item(s) has been adjudged to infringe a valid and enforceable patent (requires patent registration number and identification of claims adjudged to be infringed).

For more information on why your item was removed, you should: 
- Contact Verdes Innovation S.A. directly at (REMOVED) with your questions or concerns.
- Wait 7 days for Verdes Innovation S.A. to reply to you. Although most VeRO participants are willing to respond to polite email, please know that they aren't obligated to reply.
- If after 7 days you haven't received a response from Verdes Innovation S.A., please contact us by simply replying to this email.

The rights owner or an agent authorized to act on behalf of the rights owner, Verdes Innovation S.A., notified eBay that this listing violates intellectual property rights. When eBay receives a report of this type of violation, we remove the listing to comply with the law. 



The Rights Owner has alleged that the product(s) in your listing infringe upon their valid and enforceable patent .

If you have additional questions in regard to contacting the VeRO Member or if you need additional information on how to contact the VeRO Member, you can chat with one of our policy experts.

You can reach them from 6:00AM to 11:00 PM MST. Get started by clicking
the link below.

(REMOVED)

You may need to take a tutorial. The next time you sell, you may be asked to take the tutorial, if it's required. Once you've completed the tutorial successfully, please review your account status for any other possible concerns. If there are no other issues, you should be able to sell again.

To take the intellectual property tutorial, please visit:
http://pages.ebay.com/help/tutorial/verotutorial/intro.html

Please be aware that any additional violations of this policy may result in the suspension of your account. eBay understands that you may be concerned about this situation. We encourage you to contact Verdes Innovation S.A. directly if you have any questions. 

You can send an email to: (REMOVED)

For more information on how eBay protects Intellectual Property, or for additional information if you believe that your listing has been removed as a result of an error or misidentification, please visit the following Help page: 

http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/programs-vero-ov.html



For more information on why eBay may remove a listing, please visit:
http://pages.ebay.com/help/sell/questions/listing-ended.html

Please be assured that your listings have not been targeted in any way. Although there may be similar items currently listed on eBay, we review all listings that are reported to us by eBay members or Verified Rights Owner (VeRO) program participants. We rely on reports from our members to help maintain the safety and security of our Community. We encourage you to report any items by using the REPORT THIS ITEM button on the listing so we can quickly remove any other items that should be removed. 



Thank you for your understanding.

Sincerely,

eBay Trust & Safety team


H5265


 
- Pixel -


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## bigbee99 (Dec 16, 2010)

Wow this is interesting, I hope this doesn't actually happen.


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## HX (Dec 16, 2010)

cube-o-holic said:


> Already looked there. I want details of there patents to see where they think GuHong's infringe upon them.


 
This?


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## ~Adam~ (Dec 16, 2010)

Thank you

Edit - Laughable! If you look at the two images with Figure 3 at the top you'll basically see a GuHong except for the *DESIGN*


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## oval30 (Dec 16, 2010)

ok i am pissed off. screw veredes. the blueprint does not even look like the guhong. Maybe there might some similarities, but there are not that many to actually call a patent infringement. I think they are jealous due to the amount that dayan is selling. Not good attitude.

Edit: The inside of the edge pieces are modified andalso the corner pieces. I guess there is a resemblence, but I dont think that Verdes should do this. Everyone loves guhongs


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## HALLU (Dec 16, 2010)

I actually think that there is a great resemblance, making Verdes' actions accountable for.


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## ZamHalen (Dec 16, 2010)

The only thing I see that bears a slight resemblance are the corners. Other than that it's completely different.


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## aronpm (Dec 16, 2010)

HALLU said:


> I actually think that there is a great resemblance, making Verdes' actions accountable for.


 






I added the yellow parts on the V Cube 3 design to show where they are very different. As you can see the pieces are very different.


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## cisco (Dec 16, 2010)

Yet another joke? Is it some kind of "April's fool day" today anywhere in the world?


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## HX (Dec 16, 2010)

What is a joke? The patent infringement thing? It seems pretty legit.


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## Pixel 6 (Dec 16, 2010)

aronpm said:


> I added the yellow parts on the V Cube 3 design to show where they are very different. As you can see the pieces are very different.


 
Think you can add a Ling-Yun to that pic? Those have also been pulled.


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## Fire Cuber (Dec 16, 2010)

this forces me to change my avatar.


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## ~Adam~ (Dec 16, 2010)

I like mine more. GuHong with 'stolen illegally' illusion idea.


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## Bryan (Dec 16, 2010)

Oljibe said:


> if guhong was released before 2008, then it would be vice-verse, and if it isnt, i would want the rule "first come first served" to apply...(lolz) hope it works out


 
Patents are based on filing dates. Once a patent is filed, it becomes public in 18 months, and it may be a few after that until it's approved, but once it's approved, it's effective. If someone has prior art that dates to before the file date, they can challenge it.


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## Kurbitur (Dec 16, 2010)

lets call anonymous and let them ruin everything that verde have put online. I got a bit pissed when he banned maru 4x4 but the V4 is very similar but this, this is just ridicilous. THE ****** GUHONG ISN'T SIMILAR TO THE V3 IN ANYWAY ***. I'm just waiting for when he bans storebought and alpha models...
verde is just jelous cuz that other cubes sell better than his damn v5


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## masterofthebass (Dec 16, 2010)

I have my suspicions that Παναγιώτης Β. is a member of the v-cube family, although I may be wrong on that.


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## ~Adam~ (Dec 16, 2010)

That was my assumption aswell.


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## flan (Dec 16, 2010)

why the guhong? :'(
why god? 
why???


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## ElectricDoodie (Dec 16, 2010)

Christmas is rolling around, and right when I can finally get a Guhong, it gets the axe...

They better make it out of this alive.


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## a small kitten (Dec 16, 2010)

This is pretty sad. So many people depend on the Guhong to do well in comps...


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## LewisJ (Dec 16, 2010)

a small kitten said:


> This is pretty sad. So many people depend on the Guhong to do well in comps...


 
OH GOD THEY'RE TAKING GUHONGS OFF EBAY HOW WILL PEOPLE EVER BUY THEM NOW


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## flan (Dec 16, 2010)

LewisJ said:


> OH GOD THEY'RE TAKING GUHONGS OFF EBAY HOW WILL PEOPLE EVER BUY THEM NOW


 
and anysite that uses paypal!


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## masterofthebass (Dec 16, 2010)

As my suspicions were correct, that person is not anyone Konstantinos knows (verified by e-mail). Removed the posts and banned the user.


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## kastellorizo (Dec 16, 2010)

After watching a video with a couple of cube sellers falsely claiming there is no resemblance to the patent, 
and desperately attempting to publicly ridicule Verdes, I believe the outcome is very fair. 

For those who insult the inventor, remember who brought this technology and *then* speak.
The cubes *will* come out eventually. It is copies sold by such people the main reason
which hinder the efforts of Verdes for new cubes. So if you blame Verdes, you blame the 
wrong person. At least, Verdes *has* ethics.

Finally, there is a good blooming reason a patent exists, and that is to protect the inventor, 
regardless if many other people (who claim that "they don't know") do not understand this. 
(in fact, *especially* for those people!)


Rant over.


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## FatBoyXPC (Dec 16, 2010)

I'm going to guess that some of this fuel is coming from the fact that the V Cube 3 hasn't even been mentioned to be released, and the 2, 4, and 6b were all shown publicly yet still unreleased, and there is some definite tension from that (on these forums, at least). I don't want to say that everybody (or even a lot of people) feel this way for sure, but it could definitely be a perception based off previous threads concerning V Cubes.


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## cisco (Dec 16, 2010)

Pantazis, I'm sorry to say that if you think dayan II is a copy of vcube3 it's because your "friendship" or whatever to Verdes made you blind.


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## Pixel 6 (Dec 16, 2010)

So now cube sellers need to be Patent Attorneys to sell a product they didn't manufacture? 

So if you have a small car lot that sells Ford, and Chevy comes along and has somebody else tell you that you can't sell Ford anymore, and then follow that up with absolutely NO information to the Ford salesman, and makes no formal claim stating how Ford infringed on Chevy's rights, you just go with the flow? 

Now tell me, 

As this Ford salesman... what do you do with all the cars sitting in your lot you already purchased that you can now not sell? And what about all those people that were coming to your lot to buy your cars?

I'm reminded of a saying... "innocent until proven guilty." I haven't seen an inditement that this is a formal claim in a court of law, so where's the proof?

Interesting that all of V-cube's competition has been removed a few weeks before the largest sales holiday of the year... 

Christmas miracle!

- Pixel -


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## choza244 (Dec 16, 2010)

kastellorizo said:


> After watching a video with a couple of cube sellers falsely claiming there is no resemblance to the patent,
> and desperately attempting to publicly ridicule Verdes, I believe the outcome is very fair.


 
The outcome is very fair???? the design of the GuHong is different, maybe is just like the other people say, that Verdes is jealous that the GuHong is selling very well and has a good mechanism, and he thinks that every other cube is a copy of his invention.

and the outcome is not even fair.


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## Fire Cuber (Dec 16, 2010)

yeah, maru and guhong is pretty similar.


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## kastellorizo (Dec 16, 2010)

I won't repeat what I just said. The results are based on facts, and not anyone's tooth fairy theories. 
One thing is for sure, the lawyers are not blinded (like I am) by their friendship with Verdes. Just because 
some of you have lost (temporarily *wink wink*) their fast cubes, is no reason to lash out like that. 

Patience people, and normal service will resume. Trust me!!!


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## Fire Cuber (Dec 16, 2010)

kastellorizo said:


> I won't repeat what I just said. The results are based on facts, and not anyone's tooth fairy theories.
> One thing is for sure, the lawyers are not blinded (like I am) by their friendship with Verdes. Just because
> *some of you have lost (temporarily *wink wink*) their fast cubes*, is no reason to lash out like that.
> 
> Patience people, and normal service will resume. Trust me!!!



It seems that you don't care and read what peoples said. Read again and just stop uselessly arguing like that.
I (and not only me, I am pretty sure) think that your words are just some hypes and they are away from reality.

Bolded part :

I'm pretty sure that this is not going to be temporarily gone. All peoples knows that V things are slow man at mass producing. Look at the maru 4x4 which is the same case as this. 

The famous thing from this is that V things pull out cubes that are popular and tell peoples that they are going to release one.
But, they didn't even release it for 1 day, 1 week, 1 month and even years. What an epic win. 

Anyway that post is a uselessly useless post, that post has wasted my time.


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## Pixel 6 (Dec 16, 2010)

kastellorizo said:


> I won't repeat what I just said. The results are based on facts, and not anyone's tooth fairy theories.
> One thing is for sure, the lawyers are not blinded (like I am) by their friendship with Verdes. Just because
> some of you have lost (temporarily *wink wink*) their fast cubes, is no reason to lash out like that.
> 
> Patience people, and normal service will resume. Trust me!!!


 
You seem to know something of this. Were listings pulled from eBay by Verdes?

- Pixel -


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## a510592 (Dec 16, 2010)

In my opinion, if v-cubes wants to prevent people from "stealing" their patents, they need to produce the cubes that they have "patented". If they aren't going to release new cubes then why keep other companies from producing good cubes? People have been waiting like 3-4 years for v-cube to make the 2x2-4x4 and 8x8-11x11 that they have patented, if it's not going to happen then screw v-cubes I am going to buy it form other people. Put it into production or let other people do it, v-cubes the choice is yours.


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## nickvu2 (Dec 16, 2010)

Pixel 6 said:


> As this Ford salesman... what do you do with all the cars sitting in your lot you already purchased that you can now not sell? And what about all those people that were coming to your lot to buy your cars?


 
I may, or may not, still be willing to buy GuHongs from you.  The prohibition era of cubing has arrived. I'll see you in the underground. Viva la GuHong! 

...but, tread lightly, Lord Verde-mort may be watching.


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## kastellorizo (Dec 16, 2010)

Wrong. I do care about poverty and donate regularly. Do you? Now, how about LUXURY items
like puzzles? Oh yes, I also care, but not for those who have no patents or business, because
simply, they do not know how hard it is to run a company. For your information, Verdes is NOT
making a profit of this, thanks to those you so "elegantly" support. 

And it seems some of you do not care about inventors, and only care about your pockets. 
At least you could admit the *real* reality (i.e. you behave as if your life depends on it,
while it is Verdes which is investing all the time, not you). 

Please say something new (instead of blaming Verdes and now me). And let me sound like
a bad guy, I got no problem with that. But at least, I won't support companies which copy. 

You can vent on me if you think that will make you a more ethical person. But will it?


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## Hyprul 9-ty2 (Dec 16, 2010)

Next thing you know, they'll say Dayan 4x4's are copyright infringement too.


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## kastellorizo (Dec 16, 2010)

Pixel 6 said:


> You seem to know something of this. Were listings pulled from eBay by Verdes?
> 
> - Pixel -


 

Pixel, I was talking about the new releases from Verdes, not about the ebay listings. 
I wish I could say more, but you need to be patient for at most two more months (not more!).


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## Stefan (Dec 16, 2010)

kastellorizo said:


> After watching a video with a couple of cube sellers falsely claiming there is no resemblance to the patent,
> and desperately attempting to publicly ridicule Verdes



[citation needed]

- Where's that video?
- Where's the resemblence? The GuHong looks very different from the V-3, and more like based on Rubik's mechanism. And who besides Verdes/you sees an infringement? Any judge or so?

No reason to ridicule Verdes, btw, Verdes itself is doing an excellent job at that.



kastellorizo said:


> For those who insult the inventor



Like who?



kastellorizo said:


> At least, Verdes *has* ethics.



Lying, bullying, patent trolling, far premature announcements keeping others from pursuing their own mechanisms, using no washers so pieces wear down quickly and using no screws so we can't fix the problem, years of delays with almost no information, polluting competition venues with smoke and joking about it... yeah, awesome ethics.



kastellorizo said:


> there is a good blooming reason a patent exists, and that is to protect the inventor



That's *not* the rationale for patents, but feel free to "fix" wikipedia and tell the World Intellectual Property Organization that they got it wrong.


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## Fire Cuber (Dec 16, 2010)

That post wasn't even answering any question on my/peoples argument. Again that man did this.

Like I said before, *it seems that you don't care and read what peoples said*. Now there is more evidence which is that post. Learn to care and read what peoples said.

That's all.

EDIT : thanks Mr.Stefan, I was going to post something like this, then I saw your post. Again I said thanks.


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## James Ludlow (Dec 16, 2010)

So where exactly is still selling GuHongs? My wages clear tonight, and I have no ethics.


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## izovire (Dec 16, 2010)

I edited the initial thread post and added a link to the "Video" and the "Patent". 

That's a great post Stefan, I hope sometime soon a lot of this will get back onto the right track... We all enjoy speedcubing, yet we all enjoy the best performing speedcube available on the market... and there's always that law.


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## kastellorizo (Dec 16, 2010)

Stefan, you never hid your grudges against me before, so I can understand your feelings. 

You said you need proof to prove the opposite of what you want?

Just go to their YouTube video and you will see PLENTIFUL of insults. Just that statement of yours
was disgusting. I think you actually enjoy it, because you KNOW about it, yet you pretend (I wonder why)
that you don't. A lot of real trolling there too. So why am I a troll and you are not? Oh wait...

I see you hate smoking, so do I. And it seems it is a nice reason (for you) to label people.
So why shouldn't others label you too for your labeling?

As for IPs, it seems that someone is shut down and someone is not BASED on those rules 
you quoted yourself. So the question is, who do *you* support?


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## Pixel 6 (Dec 16, 2010)

Stefan said:


> [citation needed]
> 
> - Where's that video?


 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GbKLE48CSQo


I just got off of talking with eBay, and they confirmed that Verdes Innovations has submitted documentation to eBay under penalty of perjury that their patent was being infringed upon. So for sure that part is correct.

eBay can not supply me with this document without a suppena.

- Pixel -


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## James Ludlow (Dec 16, 2010)

kastellorizo said:


> who do *you* support?


 
I truly believe you and Verdes are wrong, so not you this time. I agree with the Maru and YJetc 5 6 and 7s, but this is ludicrous.


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## DavidWoner (Dec 16, 2010)

Someone should teach Verdes how PR works.


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## choza244 (Dec 16, 2010)

I'm starting to hate Verdes' company, they don't produce any new cubes but they want to eradicate all the other good cubes that other people have created... please watch how different are the mecahnisms Kastellorizo and try to think objectively about if it's fair what Verdes is doing.


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## Zarxrax (Dec 16, 2010)

It seems that verdes is nothing more than a patent troll.
Even if he does somehow manage to release a 3x3x3 cube within the next 10 years or so, I won't be buying it, and shall boycott all of his products.


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## James Ludlow (Dec 16, 2010)

riffz said:


> I really hope these don't get pulled from lightake.


 
Popbuying will stock them i reckon.

Has anyone thought about selling them a ornaments, or just puzzles to build? Can we get away with it? Can sellers give them away as free gifts? eg - buy a penny for £12.50 and get a free Guhong? There must be ways around this.


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## Stefan (Dec 16, 2010)

kastellorizo said:


> Just go to their YouTube video



WHICH? I've only seen this one which doesn't contain a single insult or attempt to ridicule Verdes, and *does* point out a similarity (to V-5 corners, though I don't know why one would use those instead of V-3 corners). So that's definitely not the video you're talking about.

Congrats for failing to show the video and anything else asked for, but adding lots of irrelevant nonsense.



kastellorizo said:


> So the question is, who do *you* support?



Cubing, the cubing community, and truth.


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## kastellorizo (Dec 16, 2010)

Stefan said:


> Congrats for failing to show the video and anything else asked for, but adding lots of irrelevant nonsense.



Trust me, the feelings are more than mutual. For instance, if you were fair, you wouldn't have overlooked kids
name-calling in the forum, but I guess popularity is more important for you. 





Stefan said:


> Cubing, the cubing community, and truth.


 
See what I mean? A great statement for popularity, but what does it have to do with the actual case?


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## Stefan (Dec 16, 2010)

You're still refusing to show the video or back up any of your claims, I see.



kastellorizo said:


> See what I mean? A great statement for popularity, but what does it have to do with the actual case?


 
You asked, I answered. What do you want?


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## Hyprul 9-ty2 (Dec 16, 2010)

What does any of the things he said have do to with popularity?


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## Kurbitur (Dec 16, 2010)

you can still buy YJ 4x4 and shengshou 4x4. Verdes hasn't spent time on banning these as they haven't sold much but as soon as people star buying shenshou 4x4 or YJ he will ban them. And yeah i understand the point of the patent but this is like i would paint a picture of a woman and then leonard da vinci would let me pay patent cost because he painted mona lisa. And if verde isn't in this for the money why the **** is he spending so much money on protecting his invisible puzzle. Patent costs ALOT and its just silly buying a patent for something that doesn't exist. Do you think the computers would be so good these days if someone who made the first computer had patent it and then didn't allow anyone to make better version of it? NO I DONT THINK SO.


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## izovire (Dec 16, 2010)

Stefan said:


> You're still refusing to show the video or back up any of your claims, I see.



There should only be 2 videos.. (which are the same but with different titles) I edited my original posting here to include the video that I think he might be quoting. 


This Guhong claim sounds a lot like Creationist's claims that Dogs cannot give birth to Cats... like patent drawings of the 3x3 giving birth to the amazing Guhong... kinda silly.


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## peedu (Dec 16, 2010)

I just opened my Guhong (for cleaning) and still don't understand which part of the Guhong is in conflict with V-cube design or patent. Looks totally different from patent drawings.


Peedu


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## cmhardw (Dec 16, 2010)

Some infractions given, and lots of posts deleted. Don't turn this thread into a flame war. I realize that emotions and feelings are running at redline considering the circumstances, but keep the discussion civil or bans will be handed out as well.


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## Zarlor (Dec 16, 2010)

*I Support Verdes!*

I support Verdes protecting his invention. I have the V5/V6/V7 and will continue to support Verdes V-Cube products in the future. I believe the GuHong was inspired by the V-Cube design, but I am not quite sure why the YJ big cubes were not addressed first? Although, it is near impossible to find a place selling a non V-Cube of the 6/7/9/11 order (which are all copies of the V-Cube design of course) so maybe that has been addressed more quietly than the GuHong...


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## johnstan (Dec 16, 2010)

I just ordered a Guhang from lightake about 3 days ago. Do you think they will still send it? How long do you think they will still offer them?


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## Pixel 6 (Dec 16, 2010)

I think the only reason I was the first to find out about this was simply because I had active auctions on eBay... are there any other active cubers here that also had listings on eBay that had the same thing happen?

Also, are there any cubing store owners that have had cease and desist notices given to them via their store from Verdes Innovations?

I'm wondering if eBay was the first spot that this happened, and where it's going from there...

Lastly, I read a post on another forum that everyone knew that *this* was coming... must have missed that email.



- Pixel -


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## izovire (Dec 16, 2010)

cmhardw said:


> Some infractions given, and lots of posts deleted. Don't turn this thread into a flame war. I realize that emotions and feelings are running at redline considering the circumstances, but keep the discussion civil or bans will be handed out as well.


 
I agree!

I started this thread to hopefully get a more meaningful answer regarding the patent, and to also inform other cube stores of what consequences might happen when selling the Guhong. This whole ordeal shouldn't necessarily be drawn out on a personal level... it's more of a community thing... because the Guhong has become the #1 speed cube and has most certainly helped cubers reach a new level of speed.

I do wish for V-cubes success and to hopefully release new products (as mentioned in another thread) in 2 months. 

As a business owner myself I truly understand the difficulty of making money and paying off debts in a terrible economy. And perhaps this is the case for V-cube... but still there are quite a few questions that need answers...


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## Stefan (Dec 16, 2010)

Zarlor said:


> I believe the GuHong was inspired by the V-Cube design


 
Though even if that's true (no idea), that doesn't make it illegal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Design_around

_In the field of patents, the phrase "to design around" means to invent an alternative to a patented invention that does *not infringe* the patent’s claims. The phrase can also refer to the invention itself.

Design arounds are considered to be *one of the benefits of patent law*. By providing monopoly rights to inventors in exchange for disclosing how to make and use their inventions, *others are given both the information and incentive to invent competitive alternatives* that design around the original patent. In the field of vaccines, for example, design arounds are considered fairly easy. *It is often possible to use the original patent as a guide for developing an alternative that does not infringe the original patent.*_


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## Your Mother (Dec 16, 2010)

Well, if Verdes pressess charges against DaYan and wins, maybe they can get the funds to release the 2-4, 6b, and 8-11.

EDIT: LighTake still has them up, right?

EDIT2: Don't know why I even asked, just checked, and they do. For now, that is.


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## tacgnol (Dec 16, 2010)

Stefan, that is the most valid arguement EVER. It is entirely possible to make something which is legally dissimilar. Verdes going after the YongJun 5,6,7 etc. would be understandable. Those *ARE* blatent copies. However, the GuHong Is disimilar in many ways, Which I will point out to the best of my ablility

1. The corners (Of the GuHong) have a triangular bowl shape rather than a shape resembling a quarter of a sphere (Of V-3). They also do not have a cut out 'track' in the cube portion

2. The Edges are completely lacking of the V cube mechanism's 'track' lip. They also do not have a base in the shape of a standing quarter circle, rather they branch off in to a moon-like shape.

3. The centers are entirely dissimilar. Rather than having the protrusion which the v mech is known for, they are cubical in appearrance. The stalk itself is also very dissimilar, Haveing a diameter close to that of the screw.

I know this all sounds stupid, and there is much more detail than that, but this is what I have to say. I mean no disrespect to Verdes or Pantazis, but I believe these cubes to be different enough to not infringe on the patent...however, I am no lawyer. And thus this is only an opinion


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## prostx23 (Dec 16, 2010)

Hi,

Slightly off topic here, but this reminded me of something I've been curious about. Around the beginning of the year I remember reading an article about a big Cube bust here in the U.S. I believe that the cubes were the cheap knockoffs that you can find in dollar stores. Technically aren't all non Rubik's brand cube illegal in the U.S.?

FWIW I'm glad I bought my Guhong and LingYun when I did (a few weeks ago).

Mike


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## ElectricDoodie (Dec 16, 2010)

So, Verdes is going about the same route as early Microsoft?
The whole "Stomp out your competition, before they gain a foothold?"

Microsoft did this with early Apple products and with Netscape. There's a whole book on it, and how Microsoft was able to force itself to becoming #1.


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## 04mucklowd (Dec 16, 2010)

I hate verdes
That take so ****ing long to bring out their cubes


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## tacgnol (Dec 16, 2010)

Um...I just wondered...If one had bought a GuHong/LingYun say...last saturday (eastern standard time) Then...do we get screwed over?


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## ~Adam~ (Dec 16, 2010)

If it's already been shipped there shouldn't be an issue.


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## bgcatfan (Dec 16, 2010)

I'm new on this forum, but I want to say something from my experience.

I used to be a member of the online community related to NASCAR racing simulations. A lawsuit split the community in half, hurt a lot of people, made a lot of people angry, and in a way damaged the progress of that community.

I do not know if this legal claim is similar to that situation or not (and will not go into further detail), but please, please be careful not to judge the motives of Verdes or anyone else involved at this point. Please wait until more information comes out before coming to your own conclusions. It's hard, because I know I want to have all the information right away. Perhaps we will never know everything, but I hate to see a division in a community over something like this. For myself, I know that patience is needed, and I hope that relationships among a community will not be broken.

Sorry if I have spoken something out of line.



Spoiler



OFF TOPIC: I said I was new. I have been browsing the forums for about a week, as I am looking to buy a great cube and learn better tips for solving my cube faster. I have found this forum and the many reviews/discussions extremely helpful to sort through the myriad of choices available. I currently have a very simple method that gives me around 42-43s averages.


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## Slowpoke22 (Dec 16, 2010)

What's with these? IMO they should stop wasting time with stupid stuff and improve the V6 mechanism, release new cubes, etc. Whenever they release a 3x3 or 4x4, I highly doubt it will be the best on the market. It'll be more like, "I waited years for this...really?"


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## Erzz (Dec 16, 2010)

Slowpoke22 said:


> What's with these? IMO they should stop wasting time with stupid stuff and improve the V6 mechanism, release new cubes, etc. Whenever they release a 3x3 or 4x4, I highly doubt it will be the best on the market. It'll be more like, "I waited years for this...really?"


 
On that site, in the address, there is a lock with an x on it and the https is crossed out. what does this mean?


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## flan (Dec 16, 2010)

Somethings wrong!


where is memyselfandpi?


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## blakedacuber (Dec 16, 2010)

flan said:


> Somethings wrong!
> 
> 
> where is memyselfandpi?


 
I was about to ask the same thing :L
I thought maybe i just didnt notice
i bt hes in the mddle of a really long post
I wanna hear his view on this


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## cisco (Dec 16, 2010)

I didn't remember Pantazis' cubedron was being sold there. That explains a lot of things.


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## qqwref (Dec 16, 2010)

I looked at the V-3 image in the patent and at my own GuHong and I don't see much of a resemblance in the structural details. Larger parts of the structure are vaguely similar, sure, but they're equally similar to the original Rubik's Cube and to other 3x3x3 designs - there's really only one basic way to construct a speedsolving-worthy 3x3x3 cube.

Considering that the original point of Verdes's invention was to create a new way of making sturdy and fast bigcubes, it seems silly for them to care about a 3x3x3 design. And it seems malicious to try to bring down another type of 3x3x3 when the V-3 has not even been announced (as being on the road to production) to the community. But who knows, maybe they have a new 3x3 in the works...



Kurbitur said:


> lets call anonymous and let them ruin everything that verde have put online


V-cube hasn't put much online. I don't think it would be such a huge setback to them if their site was down for a few weeks or months.


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## ColdFactor (Dec 16, 2010)

Oh come on, I was just going to buy one.
At least I still have my LingYun.


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## PhillipEspinoza (Dec 16, 2010)

kastellorizo said:


> One thing is for sure, the lawyers are not blinded (like I am) by their friendship with Verdes.



Well, that's true. But you know what's stronger than friendship for lawyers? Money. How silly to think that Lawyers are objective truth-seekers and can only argue for the truth. Lawyers may not be 'blinded' by friendship, but they're blinded by money (which could be an even greater blinding force).



nickvu2 said:


> ...but, tread lightly, Lord Verde-mort may be watching.



Shh. It's *He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Blamed*



kastellorizo said:


> Verdes is NOT
> making a profit of this.
> 
> And it seems some of you do not care about inventors, and only care about your pockets.
> At least you could admit the *real* reality


 
Well if he's not doing if for the profit, he must be doing it for the Cubing Community then right? Wrong. If he cared at all about the Community, he would see how much GuHongs have done good for the Community (i.e. oh, I dunno, the new 3x3 WR, 3x3 OH WR etc etc) and how much removing the GuHongs from major sources on the market will be overall bad for the Cubing Community. Or maybe he's doing for popularity. Does Verdes wanna be the most popular Cube name on the market (watch out Erno)? Well, either way I can say that he does not have the Cubing Community's best interest in mind.

For all those that think that this is about doing what's right and you know, "protecting the inventor" and whatnot, don't be that naive/deceptive. It's about money. We all know that. Why else would he go after the biggest selling 3x3 cube on the market right now, grasping at straws trying to find similarities to a product they weren't even planning to release? It just makes me sick that some people are still willing to defend Verdes even if it means having a monopoly on all cubing-related products.

Side-note: If they're claiming that the GuHong corners are similar to (or taken from) the V-Cube 5x5, then I think Rubik should stake a claim as the GuHong corners bare an even sharper resemblance to his Rubik's 4x4 corners (http://cubesmith.com/4x4 Corner.jpg).


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## waffle=ijm (Dec 16, 2010)

PhillipEspinoza said:


> If he cared at all about the Community, he would see how much GuHongs have done good for the Community (i.e. oh, I dunno, the new 3x3 WR, 3x3 OH WR etc etc) and how much removing the GuHongs from major sources on the market will be overall bad for the Cubing Community. Or maybe he's doing for popularity. Does Verdes wanna be the most popular Cube name on the market (watch out Erno)? Well, either way I can say that he does not have the Cubing Community's best interest in mind.
> 
> For all those that think that this is about doing what's right and you know, "protecting the inventor" and whatnot, don't be that naive/deceptive. It's about money. We all know that. Why else would he go after the biggest selling 3x3 cube on the market right now, grasping at straws trying to find similarities to a product they weren't even planning to release? It just makes me sick that some people are still willing to defend Verdes even if it means having a monopoly on all cubing-related products.



I agree completely. Sure, Verdes made an entirely different design that pretty much took the cubing world by storm. Sure Verdes made a design for a 5x5 that was far superior to the previous mechanisms. Sure Verdes created patents for cubes that we weren't even able to fathom a few years ago. But what does he get from all that? I don't think he's doing it to say "I love the cubing community and I will provide you with cubes that will revolutionize the way you cube." No not at all. I respect the inventor and stuff for creating such a design, but looking for the most minuscule detail about another company's cube just so you can take it out? total bull****.


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## some1rational (Dec 16, 2010)

wow, whatever credibility I thought you may have had from your first post, kastellorizo, I lost immediately from your subsequent posts; now it's just immaturity


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## ~Adam~ (Dec 16, 2010)

So Verdes is releasing a new cube in a couple of months.
I for one will not be buying it unless this GuHong stuff gets dropped.
Feel free to join me if you agree.
It seems logical that if they lose enough money as a result of the action they are taking then they will stop.

The Maru issue was justifiable but I don't think this is.


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## goatseforever (Dec 16, 2010)

I don't understand. Does this mean the KO 9x9 and 11x11 are OK now? :S


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## kdawg123 (Dec 16, 2010)

I agree with waffle. Even though that their cubes are very good, that does not mean that they give a s*** about the community. It's like Wal-Mart, they both did something new and amazing, but at the end of the day it is all about money. If Verdes wants to try and attack Guhongs, fine let them. But then that also gives full rights to Rubik to go after Verdes. Right now I think that V-cube is just being a selfish little brat.


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## Dene (Dec 16, 2010)

Aww man I missed all the action. 


All I'm going to say is that V-cubes have gone about this completely the wrong way. I don't know why they thought they would just go about and force people to stop selling cubes without involving the community at all, but they should fear a very large backlash because they have already lost a lot of customers because of this silly issue.


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## Drake (Dec 16, 2010)

Its weird that v-cube go for the guhong and lingyun, cause, like izovire said, only the corner are realy similar... And there is an diffrence between an 7x7 and 3x3...

Its almost like if an shampoo compagnie would go vs lubix lol. (Cause of the similar silicone that they put in shampoo.) Don't make sense o.o. Like i said in my first post, i thinked that v-cube will maybe try that an day, i was not thinking that seriously, and now they really go for it. its an little insane.

And there are probly only going for it, cause guhong and lingyun are the most popular 3x3, but v-cube still don't have 3x3's so that is not suppose to affect them.


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## Tyjet66 (Dec 16, 2010)

And thus commences my boycott of V-cubes, I didn't even get the chance to order a Guhong yet...

EDIT: HAHA!!! IN YOU FACE VERDES!
I just ordered one:
http://www.cubedepotusa.com/apps/webstore/products/show/1605281


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## Zarxrax (Dec 16, 2010)

What I find most amusing is that up until this point, no one has even had the slightest bit of concern that the dayan cubes came anywhere close to violating vcube's patent.
Even on the twistypuzzles forum, which is notorious for banning any sort of discussion of anything that even comes close to copying someone else's idea, there was no problem when the guhong was first announced there. If you look at the thread (citation), you only see comments saying things like "I'm pretty sure that this is NOT v-mechanism" and "I don't believe anyone thinks this is an infringement of the V-Cubes patent."

Yet this guy 'kastellorizo' seems to think that there is some obvious infringement here, and we all should have known that this was coming for months now. Yeah right >.>


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## EricReese (Dec 16, 2010)

OOOOOOO so this is what that email from Ebay was about. Somethin about my item..I'll quote it



> MC999 eBay Listing Removed: (438362339)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


...I was wondering what this was about


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## emolover (Dec 16, 2010)

This is rediculas what v-cube is doing. It was ok for v-cubes to claim the maru was a KO but the gu hung?.... really. There shouldnt be patiants for 3x3 because there all really simalar to the rubix brand anyway. If v-cube does get rid of the GuHungs they need to realise there v3 at the same quality as dayan did. Its just starting to turn into a messed up monopoly with mefferts and v-cubes as complete allies, I would be ok with this if they didnt have such high prices. For example, the 5x5 cost 25$ 6x6 35 and 7x7 45. Where as YJ has made direct copies of Verdes' cubes and sells them for about half the v-cube price and there as good if not better. So if v-cubes does start cracking down on the KO companies, they need to release the products that there taking off the market. Didnt v-cubes announce there V2 though V11 like a full year ago? They shouldnt have done that untill they were much nearer to the time of finishing the cubes. Were as with Mefferts and most recent announcement, they are going to release it this december, the did the right thing in releasing it soon after announced.


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## CubesOfTheWorld (Dec 16, 2010)

I am just getting flat out angry with Verdes. They are just sitting back, relaxing, and eliminating other cubes from the market. The GuHong was AMAZING! Verdes has to start making their own cubes instead of making everyone excited about an amazing cube, then saying that because the pieces come in multiple parts, then it infringes the V-Cube mechanism.
Bottom line: Verdes needs to take care of their own company before hurting other company.


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## flan (Dec 16, 2010)

News just in guys, x cube 4 isn't coming out for another 4 years, and until then, no one can produce cubes with the same mechanism. Its in the interests of the community.

Anyway the world records can wait


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## qqwref (Dec 16, 2010)

Zarxrax said:


> Yet this guy 'kastellorizo' seems to think that there is some obvious infringement here, and we all should have known that this was coming for months now.


Right, what's up with all the talk like "remember who brought this technology" and "some of you ... only care about your pockets" and "I won't support companies who copy", when most people (including myself) don't even agree that the GuHong is based off the V-3? This isn't an issue of an obvious knockoff like the Chinese 6x6x6 and 7x7x7 cubes - it's a new and popular 3x3x3 that is no more similar to the nonexistent V-3 than it is to any other 3x3x3 mechanism. We're not going to be made to feel guilty about buying a great cube that has a VERY iffy resemblance to a mechanism that nobody I know has tried out and that doesn't even have an official release date yet.


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## Zarxrax (Dec 16, 2010)

It wouldn't surprise me if verdes trys to get the prevent the x-cube 4 from being sold as well.


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## Keban (Dec 16, 2010)

this is pissing me off... i just got a lingyun so im safe, but its insane. its like the person who invented plastic is going after everyone who has plastic in their product.


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## HavoCentral (Dec 16, 2010)

V-Cube is most likely the worst cubing company is. They are hurting the community more than halping it, according to cam cuber, they tried to tell him every cube on his site infringes their patent. Which is ridiculous.

According to V-Cubes patent info, and My lingyun, NO PIECE IS THE SAME. Cameron also said that the reason is because of the corner piece, which again looks nothing like their patents.
I mean sure V cubes has some good cubes, but instead of producing newer cubes, they have been targeting other companies.
Personally, I am never buying anything from V-Cube. And If they dont stop being the **** of the cubing community, i have a feeling other people will stop buying from them any ways.
Also, the maru 4 barly infringes their patent. They take their patents to literally, its not like they are not making money.

I say rubiks should sue them for coping their original 3x3 patent, Im sure rubiks could get away with it.




So does this mean the guhong and lingyun are now forum taboo like the maru 4 and other KOs?


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## splinteh (Dec 16, 2010)

First the Maru 4x4x4, and now this? V Cubes, you're just making the speedcubing community hate you even more.


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## CubeLTD (Dec 16, 2010)

I'm safe. =O. My Guhong was shipped today at 12:11 pm.


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## HavoCentral (Dec 16, 2010)

I have started a petition to get the ruling overturned, not sure if it will help. but it is worth a shot.

so sign and check if you are boycotting verdes from now on.


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## ElderKingpin (Dec 17, 2010)

i was just about to suggest it. i think a petition will at least help


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## TheMachanga (Dec 17, 2010)

Dang it, no x-cube 4.


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## Kirjava (Dec 17, 2010)

Most of the people agreeing with what Verdes is doing are biased.

While KV might have a legal ability/right to sue for patent infringement, he clearly has no moral/ethical right to do so. That has been covered in this thread already. The fact that he's even trying to remove these cubes from the market is absurd, it simply looks like he's trying to remove competition despite not even being in the 3x3x3 market yet.

KV should go after Rubik's next, the cubes they are producing are closer to the V Cubes design than the Guhongs are.

I don't think I'm going to give any money to someone who is damaging this community. I hope that others will join me.


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## hatter (Dec 17, 2010)

How long does the process take for a decision to be legally made in these instances, does anyone know?


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## rubiksczar (Dec 17, 2010)

I think everyone is taking this WAYY to seriously. I do not think it is very wise to say all these crazy things about Verdes. just because someone can't get a Guhong on Ebay doesn't mean it's the end of the world.


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## Mr Cubism (Dec 17, 2010)

Verdes has burned his own ship with this......self-inflicted indeed!!


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## Pixel 6 (Dec 17, 2010)

Signed, and btw, Feliks got his Ultimate Lubix GuHongs in the mail last night. =] 

Just in the nick of time.

- Pixel -


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## Stefan (Dec 17, 2010)

Hmm, if the basis of their infringement claim is what I now think it is, I'm completely stumped why they/Pantazis aren't simply saying it, even when specifically asked for it. Looks to me like they want other manufacturers to fall into their trap. Add this to my list of their unethical things.


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## Bryan (Dec 17, 2010)

HavoCentral said:


> I say rubiks should sue them for coping their original 3x3 patent, Im sure rubiks could get away with it.


 You've shown your ignorance of the patent system. Please refrain from posting anything more about patents.



hatter said:


> How long does the process take for a decision to be legally made in these instances, does anyone know?


 Well, first a lawsuit would need to be filed before a decision could be made.....


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## Hiero (Dec 17, 2010)

Time for the F2 to make a comeback.


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## cuberkid10 (Dec 17, 2010)

Eh. I think Verdes needs to man up. Store owners should be making cubes for the good of the community, not the profit. (pixel 6 does a good job at this)


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## Stefan (Dec 17, 2010)

cuberkid10 said:


> Store owners should be making cubes for the good of the community, not the profit.


 
You're so cute.


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## some1rational (Dec 17, 2010)

Stefan said:


> Hmm, if the basis of their infringement claim is what I now think it is, I'm completely stumped why they/Pantazis aren't simply saying it, even when specifically asked for it. Looks to me like they want other manufacturers to fall into their trap. Add this to my list of their unethical things.


 
What do you think is their claim of infringement? Do you think it's about the colored/unstickered version (my only guess right now aside from the corner similarity, or lack thereof really)?

Just curious, I know you usually do not post unless your certain, haha.


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## Stefan (Dec 17, 2010)

some1rational said:


> What do you think is their claim of infringement?


 
Cones.


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## some1rational (Dec 17, 2010)

these cones? http://www.v-cubes.com/pdf/figure_01.pdf

hmmm...


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## Stefan (Dec 17, 2010)

Yes, somewhat. The conical surfaces created by that middle stem. Like this:


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## BigSams (Dec 17, 2010)

It's possible that one of the reasons for this action against Guhongs is that people were planning on spending a lot on them for Christmas presents, and now that they can't, Vcubes is a likely option. I'm just speculating though. Best if people don't buy Vcubes until holiday season is over just to teach Verdes a lesson  And also not buy future Vcube products if they do not drop the case and their arguments seem unreasonable.


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## some1rational (Dec 17, 2010)

Ooo ok I see it now, for those those who are curious, read http://www.v-cubes.com/info/inventor.php for more.


It's quite technical, but I can't really comment since kastellorizo (or Verdes company for that matter) has not provided any more information about whether this is actually the case.


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## xdaragon (Dec 17, 2010)

So everyone let's boycott V-Cube products until they let us have our Dayan Guhong's and Maru 4x4's!!


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## maggot (Dec 17, 2010)

ok i have to add my opinion on this. 

guhong/lingyun is a 3x3 cube. the market competition for vcubes is high, as there are many 3x3 on the market. unless vcube have a significantly better product than what is currently available (or if they can produce a design at a significantly lower cost to increase volume), it wouldnt be in the companies best interest to persue production of a 3x3. i will be blunt in saying that i do not think that the dayan corner looks anything like a vcube 5 corner aside for them being stemmed. there is no reason to even fathom comparing the vcube 5 to any 3x3 cube, regardless of any similarities in ANY piece BECAUSE the reason for the piece being shaped like it is on the vcube is for a completely different reason. go after mefferts pillowed skewb. its pillowed like a 7x7 and your beloved 6b patent. 

what really gets under my skin about this issue is that vcube has a monopoly on higher order cubes 6+. theoretically every cube that was purchased of higher order should have been an official vcube product. in a monopoly, you have the luxury of setting market price, which they did. now, wether their current market price is indeed reasonable and at no profit (assuming busniess costs were factored into the total profit) is based on the companies credibility of the statement (we're taking his word on this statement). for all we know, verdes could have produced them at very low cost and has far exceeded his initial capital investment. the credibility of any business is within their PNLs. how much verdes takes home could be why his business cost is so high. hes the CEO of a small monopoly. if vcube is not making profit, they have the ability to adjust the market price. will they lose customers? probably. a shift in market price on a luxury item usually excludes a higher percent of lower income demographics. but, at the same time, if someone wants a 6x6 or 7x7, they will have to buy vcube (theoretically) and in monopolies, as long as there is a consumer, there is a market. this community is the consumer, he has a market. to not have profits nor the ability to produce more of the patented items is an OBVIOUS lack of business sense. if you're broke or under because of 'business cost' a.k.a. inflated personal salaries, you either have to 1. decrease busniess cost 2. increase product margin 3. hire somone who has taken a high school econmics class... hell, 4. buy "SMALL BUSNIESS FOR DUMMIES" and read it.

now they are trying to flex on lower order cubes and they arent even in the market. imho, for what you have produced, you have the right to claim patent infringements. for what you have not produced... you have the right, but only if it is a direct and obvious similarity to the design. many people have claimed that this looks nothing like their 3x3 patent, which it doesnt. each puzzle is in its own right a different market. the only thing that he can do with a 5x5 design patent is ridicule companies that pose copywright infringements on 5x5 cubes. as far as i know, and please quote me if im wrong, erno rubiks patent for the puzzle is expired, giving any company in the world to produce a puzzle similar to the one that previously held a patent. dayan has simply made an improvement to a 3x3 puzzle. was it insipired by a patented item? no. it is a 3x3. the patent is expired. in fact, im boggled by the fact that verdes was able to patent a puzzle which was previously patented. there seems to be no significant design change done to the puzzle in verdes patent to justify the approval. does anyone else agree with this? i mean, its a 3x3 puzzle; it has a core, center pieces with caps, edges corners, stickers, its cube shaped, its solved the same way as a puzzle already created.... because of the design of the guhong, it does require you to tug the corner out, giving the illusion of interlocking pieces. however, the orignal design of a rubiks cube also follows the concept of 'interlocking pieces' ; where 12 edge pieces and 8 corners 'interlock' to form a cube shape around a 6 axis core. 

i am completely astonished that verdes was able to justify a patent on a previously expired item. his patent should be 
void for 3x3. he should not be able to attempt to monopolize the puzzle industry with a patent that is full of hot air. 

i have a small example i used to explain to my wife about this situation. my wife created lotion. she had it patented. the patent expired. i come along and create lotion with shea butter. i patent it (which i shouldnt have been able to do, but i did). bob smartson creates lotion with goats milk. he does not patent it. he does not care if many people create goats milk lotion, as he wants as many people to enjoy the product as much as he does. i come along and have goats milk lotion removed from the market. because i patented lotion + "x". 

please note that this is my personal opinion and is no way an attack on verdes or any supporters of him or vcubes. 

edit: http://www.v-cubes.com/info/inventor.php is simply explaining conical shapes within the design which are created by layers of the cube allowing for the corner stock to be hidden within the layer. the 3x3 design has no layer, it is what it is.


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## Andreaillest (Dec 17, 2010)

Well good thing I have my trusty Guhong with me now. Personally I feel the Guhong's design is different from v-cubes and it's a shame that they might not be available in the future. Funny that YJs are still being sold on ebay...

All about the money...


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## r_517 (Dec 17, 2010)

Guhong vs V3 
i really don't think they have significantly similarity that can be defined as a KO


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## Stefan (Dec 17, 2010)

some1rational said:


> Ooo ok I see it now, for those those who are curious, read http://www.v-cubes.com/info/inventor.php for more.



Yes, that plus their patents claiming _"the use of said conical surfaces constituting the innovation and the improvement"_.

Thanks for asking the question, btw, and asking it so properly that I could reply with a single word like I wanted to. If that indeed is their basis or at least a significant part of it, then you can see it can be conveyed with a single short word and there is no excuse for Verdes/Pantazis to not do so. Again, I must suspect the reason for refusing is to have others, like x-cube, fall into their trap.


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## TheMachanga (Dec 17, 2010)

It seems like patenting the use of the cone structure is pretty general in my opinion.


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## Drake (Dec 17, 2010)

Aaahhh, what's is the fun off cubing in that? Puting all other brand out of the way... When there is almost no point.


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## HavoCentral (Dec 17, 2010)

Bryan said:


> You've shown your ignorance of the patent system. Please refrain from posting anything more about patents.



It wasnt meant to be taken literal, I was just stating that the v cubes patent looks alot like a rubiks brand, which has been patented previoulsy, even though it expired.


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## Sa967St (Dec 17, 2010)

Stefan said:


> cuberkid10 said:
> 
> 
> > Store owners should be making cubes for the good of the community, not the profit.
> ...


Haha. I was about to add that to the list of sayings for the Pochmann Magic 8-Ball, but it's been added months ago.


----------



## Stefan (Dec 17, 2010)

TheMachanga said:


> It seems like patenting the use of the cone structure is pretty general in my opinion.


 
Cool, you found my secret second reason for wishing to express it with that one simple word  (not joking, I did think of that)

But simple and general as it is, on his page he goes on and on about it and how it was the crucial and unifying thing for him in building the larger cubes, and the patents claim it as "the innovation and the improvement". That's why I believe this is what they're after. The Dayans don't look like the V-3 and I can imagine they were not copied from Verdes (and claiming it is overbearing and mischievous) but an adjustment to Rubik's mechanism, but they do have conical surfaces. No idea whether that's enough to make it an infringement (with the pieces actually looking very different and with the stems/cones only solving a "problem" for larger cubes). I'm sure Verdes/Pantazis will show us a judge's decision or equivalent very soon. Not. (They'll more likely keep resorting to claiming and bullying)


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## bobthegiraffemonkey (Dec 17, 2010)

I support the V-cubes patent. I respect them for making a new, better mechanism available. I like my set of V-cubes (even if I had to modify my V5 and V6, it baffles me why the V5 was bumpy and didn't have rounded pieces). I have no intention of buying a Maru 4x4 or other cubes which are blatant KOs of the V-mech. I have also bought 3 Guhongs, one of which is my main speedcube. As far as I can tell, it is pretty different from the V3 (doesn't matter if it has been released or not), and I had no issue with buying it. Trying to ban people from selling it without any notice is just silly, and reasonably unfounded. If you want to stop people selling it, it helps if people think there is an issue, or you let people know exactly why you have a problem.


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## maggot (Dec 17, 2010)

from the vcube website: 
This invention is fully understood by anyone who has a good knowledge of visual geometry. For that reason, there is an analytic description of figures from 2 to 11 accompanying the present invention and proving that: 
a) The invention is a unified inventive body.
b) The invention improves the cubes manufactured, thus far in several ways and by several cube inventors, that is the 2x2x2, 4x4x4 and 5x5x5 cubes.
c) The classic and functioning without problems Rubik cube, i.e. the 3x3x3 cube, is included in that invention with some minor modifications.
d) It expands for the first time worldwide, from what we know up to now, the logic toys series of substantially cubic shape up to the number No 11, i.e. the cube with 11 different layers per direction.


please note c) where the example given expresses 'minor modifications' to 'classic and fuctioning' 'rubik cube'. 
and also b) 'improves cubes manufactured' 'by many cube inventors' of '2x2 4x4 and 5x5 cubes' 'thus far' 

and im not trying to paraphrase to convey a different meaning here, but it seems like to me that these statements validate that he has let people produce cubes similar to his design 'thus far' and that his 3x3 patent is a minor modification to a already expired patent.

edit: for someone that posted something about ethics, how about the integrity of the words coming out of your mouth? does that consititute being unethical?


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## Stefan (Dec 17, 2010)

Good point, them admitting that Rubik's 3x3x3 has no problems and that they only did "minor" modifications. And then they claim someone else doing even smaller/different modifications of *Rubik's* patent violates *theirs*? :confused:

You're misreading both b) (he's just claiming his are better than the previous) and c) (it's not an example, it's precisely covering the Rubik's cube), though. And please somehow mark the quoted part (put it in a quote tag or italics or so).


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## Dene (Dec 17, 2010)

Stefan said:


> Cones.


 
Hmm yes this was something I noticed about the Guhong. When I first saw it I thought "olook it has the same conic structure as the V-cubes".


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## tacgnol (Dec 17, 2010)

If someone (Pantazis, Konstantinos, Panigiotis, etc.) would explain the reason for the infringement claim, maybe people wouldn't be *as* mad. All we want is answers. Dodging the question with irrelevant posts just makes it worse. If you have a reason, make it public. If not, back off on the claim, and if the companies desire it, pay for any damages to their market. What I personally want is a statement, similar to the one I made, stating the 'similarities' that make this an infringement of patents.This is in the interest of Vcubes. All you (vcubes) are doing is hurting your own market, and losing respect.


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## HavoCentral (Dec 17, 2010)

I think V-Cubes is trying to monopolize cubing



Stefan said:


> Cones.


 
Do not own any V-Cubes or seen one up close, so this may be a noob question. and after following the link in the below post, im still stumped.

what are the cones?


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## oprah62 (Dec 17, 2010)

Everyone who says " I'm set! I have 2 guhongs,etc."
Those won't last you forever. For now, I'm only practicing with a set cube, saving the good dayans.


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## EricReese (Dec 17, 2010)

Meh. I only use Guhongs for OH. And I can only practice so much OH a day. I should be set for a couple months. If not I can find another OH cube by then. Considering I'll be getting it in the mail tomorrow finally.

I'm sure by a couple months passing a good replacement cube will come on the market..hopefully...

Good thing I use Haiyan memory modded cube for 2h.


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## TheMachanga (Dec 17, 2010)

HavoCentral said:


> I think V-Cubes is trying to monopolize cubing
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
See post #127 of this thread.


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## sub_zero1983 (Dec 17, 2010)

Personally I think this was a dumb thing for the V-cube company to do. Seem's like they are going after everything thats not a V-cube and say its a knock off of one of their puzzle's. Whats next? Rubik's brand 2x2' through 5x5's?


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## TheMachanga (Dec 17, 2010)

sub_zero1983 said:


> Personally I think this was a dumb thing for the V-cube company to do. Seem's like they are going after everything thats not a V-cube and say its a knock off of one of their puzzle's. Whats next? Rubik's brand 2x2' through 5x5's?


 
No, because they don't go against their patent...


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## maggot (Dec 17, 2010)

with the poor english that is used in statement b), how are you supposed to convey it as anything other than the overall improvement of the designs of the puzzle by many 'cube inventors' (as in cube companies who constantly release new cube designs i.e. alpha, dayan, type f)
and statement c) yes, you are correct about it conveying a modification of their higher order cubes, however, is this not just a modification of a rubiks cube? it is not a significant design change from the original puzzle design. even the visuals from the patent show it is not a significant design change... sure, in higher order puzzles... but do you agree with the 3x3 design? 

in reply to dene, when i first saw my guhong, i thought "wow, thats clever that they designed the corner to go in further. that way if i pop an edge out somehow, the corner is still grabbing on to the core on the inside.." 

if you think of the designed based upon that inspiration (which now to me seems kind of far fetched). but, in all actuality, if you do pop a guhong, typically its just an edge that falls out. this makes fixing pops mid-solve save precious seconds. having to pop back in a corner and an edge versus just an edge can ruin a good average. and even worse, sometimes you get explosive pops. i recall many a times popping my orginal type C and having to pick up 2 corners and 2 edges off the floor. . .


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## asportking (Dec 17, 2010)

Doesn't the v-cube company have anything better to do than this, like making new cubes maybe?


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## BigSams (Dec 17, 2010)

@ maggot, can't you write shorter posts? Takes so long to read 'em.


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## maggot (Dec 17, 2010)

yes. please excuse the lengthy posts.


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## souljahsu (Dec 17, 2010)

Seriously...I'm not going to get the V-cube 7 now.

Btw, maru 4x4s are still available for purchase if you send an e-mail to maru.


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## maggot (Dec 17, 2010)

i also want to comment on the xcube. even if it is or isnt an infringement, maybe he should reconsider finding a seller? since we know tk is about the community, maybe we can get a decent 4x4 without worries of him getting trampled over extremely petty garbage acusations.


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## Stefan (Dec 17, 2010)

maggot said:


> with the poor english that is used in statement b), how are you supposed to convey it as anything other than the overall improvement of the designs of the puzzle by many 'cube inventors' (as in cube companies who constantly release new cube designs i.e. alpha, dayan, type f)
> and statement c) yes, you are correct about it conveying a modification of their higher order cubes, however, is this not just a modification of a rubiks cube? it is not a significant design change from the original puzzle design. even the visuals from the patent show it is not a significant design change... sure, in higher order puzzles... but do you agree with the 3x3 design?


 
If you want me to reply, try to make sense and not misread so much.


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## maggot (Dec 17, 2010)

Stefan said:


> If you want me to reply, try to make sense and not misread so much.


 
in statement b) i was saying that i was correct, and that you were implying that i was wrong about how he let the puzzles quality improve on behalf of his design. even given that it is horrible english. 

in statement c) i was saying that you are correct about me misreading the statement. however, the statement saying that their 3x3 design is a modification of their design is bull. its a modification of a 3x3 puzzle, plain and simple. all this cones stuff was his inspiration for higher order cubes and fixing the corner attachment issues, it didnt create a new puzzle. its bogus. hell, he hasnt even "created" anything yet. wheres the vcube 3?


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## Zarxrax (Dec 17, 2010)

Stefan said:


> Yes, somewhat. The conical surfaces created by that middle stem. Like this:


 
Looking at my lingyun cube, I can't see any sort of funnel or "cone" shape at all. I mean, there are lots of bumpy "ups and downs" in there, but I see nothing clearly resembling the cone in that image...


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## Jukuren (Dec 17, 2010)

Was planning on getting the Full V-Cube collection soon.... 
this makes me not want to tho
love my GuHong


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## OzBluey (Dec 17, 2010)

I always thought the GuHong looked similar, but looking at the plans/drawings for the 3x3 they look nothing alike....

I mean sure, if there was a V-Cube 3, and sales were being lost over a cheaper, but just as good 3x3, the GuHong, I would fully support Verdes, but seeing as he doesn't have a mass produced version, my only question is WHY?!?!?

So if I were Verdes, I would seriously consider spending more time producing the rest of the V-Cube Family, and stop wasting time on this sort of stuff...


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## Stefan (Dec 17, 2010)

Zarxrax said:


> Looking at my lingyun cube, I can't see any sort of funnel or "cone" shape at all.



Guess I finally have to get one, didn't know how it looks...

Maybe they're not attacking the LingYun. Lubix/Izovire were only guessing about that one, could be only the GuHong. And I'd say the LingYun demonstrates that Dayan's main idea besides lots of rounding is the small inner sphere, and the GuHong's outer cones rather are an unnecessary consequence than a copied main feature.


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## cuber576 (Dec 17, 2010)

OzBluey said:


> So if I were Verdes, I would seriously consider spending more time producing the rest of the V-Cube Family, and stop wasting time on this sort of stuff...


Exactly, rather than spending lawyers to sue and ban guhongs, they rather complete their v cube family. At this rate who knows maybe even a 2x2 will be produced. lol

If they want to ban the guhong, at least produce the V-cube 3 before making a fuss about the guhong. I don't own a guhong so I'm not sure whether the guhong and v-cube 3 are similar. Although they have the rights to ban any cube that is similar to their v-cubes but as a responsible company they should produce theirs first otherwise it's like starving the cubers if their rights to get the best cube


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## Cyrus C. (Dec 17, 2010)

They haven't produced a V Cube 3 yet, let's boycott them. Surely that will help them make prototypes and release the cube quicker.


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## Zubon (Dec 17, 2010)

If all of this turns out to be true and v-cubes really are going after the Guhong, I am not happy.

I bought the v-cubes 5, 6 and 7 as soon as they came out. I've been waiting for their higher order cubes for a long time now. 

Because of v-cubes behavior, I think I just might buy a cheaper knockoff higher order cube next time I am in China or Hong Kong...


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## Zarxrax (Dec 17, 2010)

Stefan said:


> Guess I finally have to get one, didn't know how it looks...


Well, its the exact same design as the guhong I believe, just has some tracks added.
In any case, I can see that there is an indention towards the center, but its not an obvious funnel shape. The pieces are all rounded, so its going up and down, up and down; not sloping inward...


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## Fire Cuber (Dec 17, 2010)

I don't think that V things will make a V-3 either. Look back at the Maru 4x4 which even not mass produced 3 month (i think?) after it was banned.


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## Jukuren (Dec 17, 2010)

Insert hate mail here
lol


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## EricReese (Dec 17, 2010)

Jukuren said:


> Insert hate mail here
> lol


 
Done.

lol


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## Whyusosrs? (Dec 17, 2010)

emolover said:


> This is rediculas what v-cube is doing. It was ok for v-cubes to claim the maru was a KO but the gu hung?.... really. There shouldnt be patiants for 3x3 because there all really simalar to the rubix brand anyway. If v-cube does get rid of the GuHungs they need to realise there v3 at the same quality as dayan did. Its just starting to turn into a messed up monopoly with mefferts and v-cubes as complete allies, I would be ok with this if they didnt have such high prices. For example, the 5x5 cost 25$ 6x6 35 and 7x7 45. Where as YJ has made direct copies of Verdes' cubes and sells them for about half the v-cube price and there as good if not better. So if v-cubes does start cracking down on the KO companies, they need to release the products that there taking off the market. Didnt v-cubes announce there V2 though V11 like a full year ago? They shouldnt have done that untill they were much nearer to the time of finishing the cubes. Were as with Mefferts and most recent announcement, they are going to release it this december, the did the right thing in releasing it soon after announced.


 
Your 'enter' button is not a random key. It's actually used to put space between paragraphs. Secondly, learn to capitalize properly and stop putting, unneeded comments. Finally, it's Guhong, not GuHung(s).



Bryan said:


> You've shown your ignorance of the patent system. Please refrain from posting anything more about patents.


 
*snickers* I love this post.



cuberkid10 said:


> Store owners should be making cubes for the good of the community, not the profit.


 
Funny man. I'll make a US based website selling cubes the same price as lightake with free shipping. I like to do tons of work for free.

I feel some positive vibes coming from this thread. Keep those positive vibes coming at me, SS.


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## HavoCentral (Dec 17, 2010)

I seriously think V-Cube needs to release puzzles, and then if other cubes are doing better, try something it they have probable cause.
But the maru stayed illegal because its obviously based on the V4 even though a lot was changed, 
If there is a person or committee or whatever that reviews these infringement claims, hopefully they will side with dayan.
I was about to get a guhong, since i heard it pops less than the lingyun, and i got a lingyun right after it came out, since it was hyped to have less popping.
Now I am disappointing.
Im surprised that V-Cube lets other sites sell their cubes, instead of hogging the Vs to themselves.

And I forgot who or how many pages back, but some one mentiion V-Cube going after alphas.
Cameron has a vid on youtube that sayd something like verdes told him all his cubes were infringing or something like that. youd have to watch the video. But he did mention the Av specifically.
When was the Av first released? was it before or after the Verdes patent filing?

EDIT: Video

also in the video, he says that V cube is claiming that the guhong and lingyuns corners are infringing on the corners of the V5


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## prostx23 (Dec 17, 2010)

Something is lost on me here. If Verdes really believes that he has a legit claim of patent infringement, shouldn't he be going after the DaYan company rather than some small Ebay dealers? If he isn't, then it really does seem like petty retailer bullying to me.

Mike


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## swanny (Dec 17, 2010)

Verdes is just losing customers 
instead of going after dayan, he should just get on with making his own 3x3


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## avgdi (Dec 17, 2010)

HavoCentral said:


> I seriously think V-Cube needs to release puzzles, and then if other cubes are doing better, try something it they have probable cause.
> But the maru stayed illegal because its obviously based on the V4 even though a lot was changed,
> If there is a person or committee or whatever that reviews these infringement claims, hopefully they will side with dayan.
> I was about to get a guhong, since i heard it pops less than the lingyun, and i got a lingyun right after it came out, since it was hyped to have less popping.
> ...



The AV was released sometime last year. Verdes got there patent in 2005 I think.


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## Zarxrax (Dec 17, 2010)

prostx23 said:


> Something is lost on me here. If Verdes really believes that he has a legit claim of patent infringement, shouldn't he be going after the DaYan company rather than some small Ebay dealers? If he isn't, then it really does seem like petty retailer bullying to me.
> 
> Mike


 
This is a very good point, but as far as we know, he could have contacted the dayan company already. We dont have that information yet.


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## Daniel Wu (Dec 17, 2010)

There seems to be too much information that's unknown. But based on what is known, Verdes is making a bad move by making their main consumers angry.


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## avgdi (Dec 17, 2010)

Today is the first day of this incident. Although I too am not happy with Verdes, I am going to wait it out a little and see if more information will be released.


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## cannon4747 (Dec 17, 2010)

*its doesn't even make sense!*

the v3 i admit if you don't hollow out the foot that hooks into the other pieces, and you shorten the corner stalk, and you don't have a slight concave curve on the edges of the corner it looks a little like a v-cube but not enough to infringe them. but they say it infringes because it looks a little like the v5 corner? really? there not even the same KIND of puzzle let alone use a similar mechanism! and in addition to that i'm sure that they're taking this to some sort of judge and the judge's opinion/thought process is exactly as follows: "okay whats this one about? oh! rubiks cubes? i never could figure those out, i used to peel off the stickers and put them back on! so its a patent infringement is it? (i don't understand how this thing works? he thinks as he reads the v5 mech) whatever, it doesn't matter its just a rubiks cube. if it turns then whats ur problem?" if thats it then i just want to scream at v-cubes! and i'm not even a store owner!! my only hope is that im getting a lingyun for christmas so that ill have that. now im gonna go buy a shengshou 4x4 before v-cube declares patent infringement on that too:fp


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## prostx23 (Dec 17, 2010)

Zarxrax said:


> This is a very good point, but as far as we know, he could have contacted the dayan company already. We dont have that information yet.



It's certainly possible that he has gone after them. It would be helpful, not to mention polite, to simply inform the retailers that they have attacked of this detail. I'll be interested to see how this all shakes out.


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## qqwref (Dec 17, 2010)

Cyrus C. said:


> They haven't produced a V Cube 3 yet, let's boycott them. Surely that will help them make prototypes and release the cube quicker.


IIRC the V-cube company has said several times that they don't want/need any kind of donations to help move the cube process along. So I get the impression that they are moving at their own rate, and waiting for a stable safe time to release new cubes.

Unfortunately, as is the nature of things in a community with dozens of puzzle ideas and thousands of people who want to buy them, it will always get less and less easy to produce new things. Wait long enough and some Chinese company will either outright copy your idea, or come out with an alternative that is equal or better. The only way to guarantee to do well is to produce things while they are still fresh and amazing.


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## ariasamie (Dec 17, 2010)

I signed the petition.
I think a separate thread should be made about this petition.


and this:


Kirjava said:


> I don't think I'm going to give any money to someone who is damaging this community. I hope that others will join me.


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## Winball (Dec 17, 2010)

It's sort of easy to say you want to boycott v-cubes when you already have the 6-6 and 7-7. 

I want the 7x7, but there are no Knock-offs or other alternative for this?


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## tertius (Dec 17, 2010)

There will always be KO items coming out of China...


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## Escher (Dec 17, 2010)

...And for the umpteenth time, Verdes makes another massive faux pas.

Way to alienate the most hardcore part of your market.


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## Faz (Dec 17, 2010)

Ahaha good luck stopping us using them. Good thing I have 4


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## Jukuren (Dec 17, 2010)

Winball said:


> It's sort of easy to say you want to boycott v-cubes when you already have the 6-6 and 7-7.
> 
> I want the 7x7, but there are no Knock-offs or other alternative for this?


 
dont worry.... your not missin out on much... 7x7 sucks


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## Nestor (Dec 17, 2010)

fazrulz said:


> Ahaha good luck stopping us using them. Good thing I have 4


 
My third one is being ordered now 

Good luck to Verdes trying to remove them from Chinese websites.


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## SixSidedCube (Dec 17, 2010)

fazrulz said:


> Ahaha good luck stopping us using them. Good thing I have 4


 
Ahaha, Faz, are you trying to wind Verdes up by putting "I use a Dayan Guhong cube." as your signature? If so, I think it'll work. ^_^


----------



## Olivér Perge (Dec 17, 2010)

I think it's a shame that this can happen but I would like to clear something up. In my experience Professor Verdes himself is not likely responsible for these issues and he is not the leader of the company nor the man behind the company's strategy and policy (just like Ernő Rubik has not much to do with Rubik Studio), as his son does it "for him". As far as I know his son is not the most experienced business man out there and he is going for nothing but money and can do crazy things to get that. 

And if this is the case:

- it's even a bigger shame, because it makes Mr. Verdes look stupid
- please stop calling the professor's name (he is a great mind, just remember how thankful everyone was when the V-series came out)
- blame the man who is responsible for this 

But again, I might be wrong, these are just my thoughts about the case. If anyone knows the straight facts, please correct me!



HavoCentral said:


> V-Cube is most likely the worst cubing company is.



Let's make them race for title with Rubik Studio.


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## Mr Cubism (Dec 17, 2010)

Winball said:


> I want the 7x7, but there are no Knock-offs or other alternative for this?



You have PM!


----------



## kastellorizo (Dec 17, 2010)

avgdi said:


> Today is the first day of this incident. Although I too am not happy with Verdes, I am going to wait it out a little and see if more information will be released.


 
Exactly, and as usual and always, impatience is the driving force for many people
in this forum. The time is more near that you think, and more would have been
said, if some of you had a better manner self-control.

As expected, many people hide behind their anonymity, and for those people their 
own comments just turn back to them. And I am also talking about those who are not
anonymous, yet they enjoy to see others ridiculed by the anonymous mob (many of 
whom traditionally support KOs - a coincidence?) and pretend nothing is happening. 
Then, they "claim" that I am not responding. Would you? I guess this is a good reason
to refrain from posting updates in the future for this and other matters. 

V-Cubes NEVER depended on the people who are impatient (and who already
buy KOs). So for them, instead of crying and complaining, making anonymous
comments, and trying to drag others to their own behaviours-pit, just wake up. 
You won't do much serve to myself or to others, but to your own self.

In any case, I am catching a flight soon, and hopefully, you would understand 
my words one day. I have no hard feelings for most of the people here, as many
are too young, and some of them are simply misguided by people who have absolutely
no idea of how hard it is to manufacture, or about patents (I also don't claim I do!).
I mean, if they *can* do better than Verdes, why not try to do something even
better and see how "easy" it is? (good question, isn't it? Words are always cheap).

And a patent is *by definition* a monopoly with an *expiry date*, which is 
why it has so high risk and costs, so that it can properly protect an inventor. 
Am I missing something here? Some of you pretend to be in denial, just to justify 
your own "conclusions".

I am happy to meet anyone in Perth, Singapore (from Sunday) or early January 
at the Hong Kong Toy Fair, to discuss this matter while sipping some nice fruit juice.
I am also attending (and organising) some speedsolving competitions with the help
of other friends, so we could also meet there.

I would like to end the same way I started: *Patience*. Things are almost there. 
(and I am not talking about years or months, but weeks!)

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year. 


Pantazis


PS. For communication other than meeting, please use PMs. If you reply here, you
automatically prefer me to be confronted with some of the KO supporters (you know
they exist here behind their "complaints"). And as I am already doing this 
*face to face* at the Toy Fairs, it is pointless to do this here, behind anonymity.


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## Cubenovice (Dec 17, 2010)

And with the above post this thread can be closed...


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## Fire Cuber (Dec 17, 2010)

That post was containing nothing.
I'm sure that man is also have the same impatient level as us. He would feel something like how we feel when he was the same case as us.

Well that man says "you're a KO supporters"

I'm pretty sure that peoples here are NOT KO supporters, just they don't like V things to be unfair to the speedcubing community.


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## Winball (Dec 17, 2010)

It would really **** me off if v-cubes started to sell the GuHong (The exact same design).


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## cisco (Dec 17, 2010)

kastellorizo said:


> And a patent is *by definition* a monopoly with an *expiry date*, which is
> why it has so high risk and costs, so that it can properly protect an inventor.


 
That's the problem. Patents are good for 1 person, that makes money. And you know you protect it because you are doing business with it, too (for example, your cubedron being sold at v-cubes.com for $25)

Who will protect us as customers, from paying too high prices for puzzles, or even worst, from not being able to get them because they only exist designed in a paper so that nobody else can sell them?


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## kastellorizo (Dec 17, 2010)

cisco said:


> That's the problem. Patents are good for 1 person, that makes money. And you know you protect it because you are doing business with it, too (for example, your cubedron being sold at v-cubes.com for $25)
> 
> Who will protect us as customers, from paying too high prices for puzzles, or even worst, from not being able to get them because they only exist designed in a paper so that nobody else can sell them?


 
Protect you from what? From buying LUXURY items? Maybe if you had grown in a poor society or if you were born with 
a defect, you would have seen some differences and appreciated what is really going on (obviously you are not!)
You love to defame others (but in the end you are just doing it to yourself). You should go to the MindStrat Puzzles website
to see what sort events we support (e.g. the sunwing event for children with special needs and others to be added). 
But hey, I forgot, you are only interested in being protected from the "big bad" puzzle manufacturers who are after you... 

*That would be my last answer to you and to anyone else who loves to provoke others when I CLEARLY stated 
in my previous post that for this matter PMs are the way to go. * (Communication with people who don't understand
simple English, is impossible).


Pantazis


PS. Using the term "luxury item" is like hitting the nail on the head. I am surely expecting some panicking answers quoting 
"irrelevance"/"off topic" as usual (avoiding facts, and without an explanation from their part, yet claiming one from me! - oh the irony!).
Especially those who avoid PMs, and want to show off here. In any case, everyone is allowed to have an opinion.
The insults to Verdes I referred to (despite some people being told already, but by deliberately trying to show how "right" they are,
they keep the argument alive and may ask three or more times), was in the first *unedited* comments of the YouTube video. 
At least, it is good they are removed now by the uploader, but it still shows an alarming disrespect by those who commented.
As for Stefan, from my experience, he always wants to have the last word (didn't he see the post quoting the video changes?
well, he did, but maybe he thinks I did not!), so I guess I will let him do just that, to make all of us happy.
And I have won interstate awards (from student voting) in explaining advanced maths methods in many ways (where others 
had failed miserably). I do not need any "opinions" from communication "experts" to tell me who I am and what I can do. So please...


----------



## LearningCode (Dec 17, 2010)

Umm..
Questions.

What has LUXURY items, growing in a poor society or being born with a defect got to do with me seeing that Verdes is doing the right thing in banning GuHongs?
How does one or a couple of posts prove that an individual 'loves' to defame others?
What has MindStrat Puzzles Ptd. Ltd.'s involvement with charity got to do with being the good guy?

Also, ever thought that most of us don't wanna' provoke ANYONE but are forced to because of something so horrifyingly wrong that we just have to speak up?

Great apologies for this off-topic post.
I had wanted to order the GuHong Ultimate from Lubix today, but found that there was a patent issue and eBay + PayPal blah.
So I then read all 21 pages of this thread to hopefully get some real answers and updates on this whole Verdes debacle (A debacle in my opinion, at least.)

But it seems that there isn't much going on that's been posted up here.
It's a shame, really.
I have never tried a GuHong in my entire life =/

Also, patent signed.
Signature number 59!


----------



## joey (Dec 17, 2010)

This forum isn't about helping charities or anything like that, it's about speedcubing, so a guhong is not a "LUXURY" item.

I'm glad you support charities, but it has no relevance to anything here.


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## Litz (Dec 17, 2010)

kastellorizo said:


> Protect you from what? From buying LUXURY items


He's talking about consumer protection, which you clearly know nothing about. You keep going off-topic, talking about random stuff that doesn't prove or answer anything. I'm glad you understand communication with you is indeed, impossible.


----------



## Rpotts (Dec 17, 2010)

cisco said:


> That's the problem. Patents are good for 1 person, that makes money. And you know you protect it because you are doing business with it, too (for example, your cubedron being sold at v-cubes.com for $25)
> *
> Who will protect us as customers, from paying too high prices for puzzles, or even worst, from not being able to get them because they only exist designed in a paper so that nobody else can sell them?*


 
You don't have a _right_ to buy puzzles. Businesses have the right to sell puzzles, which gives consumers like you and me the _opportunity_ to purchase puzzles. Protecting businesses protects consumers, if no one could patent their product and anyone could legally sell knockoffs then there would be no incentive to invent/produce new goods. Any rational person would realize their inventions would simply get reproduced/knocked-off more cheaply thus decimating the market share they _deserved_ because they put the time/effort/capital into designing their product. Without the incentive to produce goods, the consumers would be left high and dry, with few companies willing to invest labor and capital into designing and selling new goods.

I do not believe Dayan infringed upon Verdes' patent and I think kastellorizo's arguments are unfounded.


----------



## darkerarceus (Dec 17, 2010)

LearningCode said:


> Umm..
> Questions.
> 
> What has LUXURY items, growing in a poor society or being born with a defect got to do with me seeing that Verdes is doing the right thing in banning GuHongs?
> ...


 
So you were the guy that signed right after me!
anyway I think that there are barely ANY similarities in them, the corner kind of but still... I don't think THAT is too much of an infringment. I haven't tried a GuHong but with Faz and Rowe's recors I really don't think that they should disappear. The V3 BETTER be good.

Lucky I ordered my LingYun before this dispute happened.


----------



## Stefan (Dec 17, 2010)

Olivér Perge said:


> I think it's a shame that this can happen but I would like to clear something up. In my experience Professor Verdes himself is not likely responsible for these issues and he is not the leader of the company nor the man behind the company's strategy and policy
> 
> - please stop calling the professor's name (he is a great mind, just remember how thankful everyone was when the V-series came out)



I can't speak for everyone, but I'm well aware of that. Anyway, I haven't seen anyone attacking him (btw, are you sure he's a professor? Even his own page calls him "Mr."). Pantazis claimed it earlier and I asked him to show one:


Stefan said:


> kastellorizo said:
> 
> 
> > For those who insult the inventor
> ...


But of course he never answered...



kastellorizo said:


> Then, they "claim" that I am not responding.



Maybe that's because... I don't know... you're not?

You entered this thread making claims about a video. I asked you three times to show it, but you still haven't. Must be extremely hard to post a link to a video I'm supposed to find easily. And how many times did I and others want to know what the infringement is? You didn't even once even come close to answering that. One really must wonder why, as showing it would certainly help Verdes a lot here. They would get the usual support from many, instead of the anger they're getting right now.

For someone being in the business, being a V-Cubes spokesperson, and being the #1 poster at the TwistyPuzzles forum, you seem to know extremely little about communication.



kastellorizo said:


> For communication other than meeting, please use PMs.



So we shall discuss meeting you publicly, and something concerning everybody privately. Sure, makes sense.


----------



## chikato_tan (Dec 17, 2010)

if Guhong is illegal then we can not use it in WCA , it is my best cube


----------



## EricReese (Dec 17, 2010)

How many times are people going to ask that stupid question. YES IT IS LEGAL TO USE IT IN COMP. YES. YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES

YES IT IS LEGAL


----------



## ElectricDoodie (Dec 17, 2010)

kastellorizo said:


> I would like to end the same way I started: *Patience*. Things are almost there.
> (and I am not talking about years or months, but *weeks!*)


 Are you implying that you know that the V Company is maliciously stopping all sale of the Guhong, to make a dent in their sales, during the holiday season? And that once the holiday weeks are over, everything will be dropped? Seems like it.




And so far, you have continued to argue and put up your points, but when called out on them, you have yet to actually give anything that's substantial and supports you.


----------



## nathanajah (Dec 17, 2010)

ElectricDoodie said:


> Are you implying that you know that the V Company is maliciously stopping all sale of the Guhong, to make a dent in their sales, during the holiday season? And that once the holiday weeks are over, everything will be dropped? Seems like it.


I think he means that the other V cubes are about to be released.
Either way, I don't think I will buy them.


----------



## Stefan (Dec 17, 2010)

ElectricDoodie said:


> Are you implying that you know that the V Company is maliciously stopping all sale of the Guhong, to make a dent in their sales, during the holiday season? And that once the holiday weeks are over, everything will be dropped? Seems like it.



Huh? How do you not interpret that as a hint that V-3 and others shall be available soon?


----------



## Pixel 6 (Dec 17, 2010)

Hmm so eBay says I can't sell GuHongs because Verdes told them I can't... Perhaps then I must be breaking an eBay rule?

I want to see a formal court document on this that makes these actions legal. If you can provide me with no legal proof that I have broken any LAWS, then you are in fact the one who has. Show me a court order, or my cubes go back for sale. 

- Pixel -


----------



## ElectricDoodie (Dec 17, 2010)

If they are hinting at their own release, I just wonder how close it will be to the quality of the Guhongs.


----------



## ~Adam~ (Dec 17, 2010)

If it follows the patent I doubt it'll even get close. But who cares? Why would we want to buy it anyway?


----------



## ElectricDoodie (Dec 17, 2010)

cube-o-holic said:


> If it follows the patent I doubt it'll even get close. *But who cares? Why would we want to buy it anyway?*


 
I know that.
But, I was wondering if they would would completely put the stop on one type of cube, only to make a shoddy version of the same cube, and not try to improve, because they'd be the only ones around. 

It's what monopolies try to do. If they can stop everyone else from having a product, they can make it as crappy as they want, because they'll be the only ones. 

I know this doesn't directly apply, because of how many cubes there are, but I was just wondering this. If once Guhong was out of the picture, if they would just make a crap cube, and not care.


----------



## prostx23 (Dec 17, 2010)

Pixel 6 said:


> Hmm so eBay says I can't sell GuHongs because Verdes told them I can't... Perhaps then I must be breaking an eBay rule?
> 
> I want to see a formal court document on this that makes these actions legal. If you can provide me with no legal proof that I have broken any LAWS, then you are in fact the one who has. Show me a court order, or my cubes go back for sale.
> 
> - Pixel -



That is certainly how I would feel over this situation. Have you requested this information from Ebay? and If they provide nothing, and you start selling there again, is there any other potential penalities besides banishment (which is very easy to get around)?

Mike


----------



## maggot (Dec 17, 2010)

"I would like to end the same way I started: Patience. Things are almost there. 
(and I am not talking about years or months, but weeks!)"


I just want to make it known to everyone that i call bull. weeks will not happen. not in bringing back guhong, not in releasing any more puzzles. and not stupid sticker modifications, actual hardware, bud. i'll speak on behalf of the community that we are tired of being patient with you. we've been patient for years. and your claims continue to have no backbone. PROVE IT! do not confuse efforts with results. the speedcube community does not care about how you save kittens from burning buildings or donate to the special olympics. bring on your claims of releasing puzzles and stop harassing others.


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## ~Adam~ (Dec 17, 2010)

A thousand weeks is still weeks. They can always fall back on that.


----------



## maggot (Dec 17, 2010)

no, because it says weeks... 'not years or months'


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## TheRubiksGod (Dec 17, 2010)

Verdes should rethink his strategy. of course many patents are stolen, some are made better and some are made to last 3 days. here is the thing. verdes will never make any "Other" cube, in fact i highly doubt we will even see his prototype in the next 10 years. Why? because we "Cubers" do not condone in buying knockoffs. possibly because of the fisher incident! 

If we buy v-cube products we are making sure v-cube will never proceed with their plans to make other cubes. Why? well with this incedent we "Might" ;D see another v-cube because they feel threatened. Therfore i see positives in this unfortunate time 

As far as I'm concerned i wouldn't want a v-cube 3 anyway. 

The only thing mr. verdes is doing right now is making stupid little variations to his v-cube 7! his buisness should crumble and some real designers should take his plans and make them 

If verdes destroys GuHong, then war will be declared!


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## Kurbitur (Dec 17, 2010)

if you look at the mechanism of V3 you se it will never ever be as good as guhong without any modifications. You see how the centers come in the edges ect. there is no chance of getting 45 ° cc and lik 20-30 reverse cc.


----------



## HavoCentral (Dec 17, 2010)

ariasamie said:


> I signed the petition.
> I think a separate thread should be made about this petition.
> 
> 
> and this:



done



And I emailed The Verdes people a month or so ago, you can expect new cubes somethime early-mid 2011, though at this point, I'm not sure if anyone will buy them.


----------



## FatBoyXPC (Dec 17, 2010)

I just heard from an "anonymous source" that early 2011 (mid January) has something wonderful (of a lower order than usual) to be revealed. I guess we'll see.


----------



## tacgnol (Dec 17, 2010)

If they DO come out with a v3, I would buy it...because it sounds interesting to me...and stuff. 
I honestly think some of the posters in this thread should calm down. Honestly. If you think about it, it actually is too early to get worked up. IF the claims by kastellorizo are fact...we look like *******s. I am sorry, but the world can continue without the GuHong. besides, you can still find them if you look around


----------



## qqwref (Dec 17, 2010)

kastellorizo said:


> The time is more near that you think, and more would have been said, if some of you had a better manner self-control.


Do you think you have the right to criticize the patience of other people when you know secret private release information that they don't?



kastellorizo said:


> I mean, if they *can* do better than Verdes, why not try to do something even better and see how "easy" it is? (good question, isn't it? Words are always cheap).


No, it's not a good question. It is ludicrous to claim that someone should be completely free of criticism if the critic cannot personally beat their performance. We're not saying "this company is not perfect so it should be destroyed", it's closer to "I don't like this thing the company is doing, it would be better if they didn't do that". People here wish the company would act in a more friendly way, for our interests instead of against them. V-Cubes has nothing to lose by announcing cubes that are close to release, and nothing to gain by going after popular and non-infringing types of cube.



kastellorizo said:


> I would like to end the same way I started: *Patience*. Things are almost there. (and I am not talking about years or months, but weeks!)


Again, it's very unfair to expect people who don't have the information you do to behave the same way you will. You do not have the moral high ground in any sense. Besides, I know from experience that even when V-cubes says they will release something you may have to wait anywhere up to several years for it.


What's all this about anonymity, anyway? Sure, some people here are just users, that you don't know anything about. But many of the people posting in this topic are well-known enough - or have a youtube link or WCA profile - so that they are not in any sense anonymous.


----------



## guoguo (Dec 17, 2010)

Guhongs are made with a clearly different concept than V3s, which is reduce the size of the inner mechs so that you need make less effort to turn a face. As the outer cube has the same size than a standar one, the pieces are distorted.

V3s just change the ways the pieces hold one to another.

said that , I find very unfair that Verdes try to stop a very good design just using tricks as the accidental similarity with his cone design, I hope he wont manage to get it. Meanwhile I wont buy any Vcube until Mr Verdes desists in this prosecution


----------



## Kirjava (Dec 17, 2010)

kastellorizo said:


> Exactly, and as usual and always, impatience is the driving force for many people
> in this forum. The time is more near that you think, and more would have been
> said, if some of you had a better manner self-control.



Gotta understand what people are saying, considering V Cubes' past record.



kastellorizo said:


> As expected, many people hide behind their anonymity, and for those people their
> own comments just turn back to them.



You seem to complain about people being anonymous a lot. Firstly, it's not even true. Secondly, it's irrelevant.



kastellorizo said:


> And I am also talking about those who are not
> anonymous, yet they enjoy to see others ridiculed by the anonymous mob (many of
> whom traditionally support KOs - a coincidence?)



Your special relationship with V Cubes and your opinions are no coincidence either.



kastellorizo said:


> Then, they "claim" that I am not responding. Would you?



Yep.



kastellorizo said:


> I guess this is a good reason to refrain from posting updates in the future for this and other matters.



Threatening lack of updates and information for non compliance? How quaint.



kastellorizo said:


> V-Cubes NEVER depended on the people who are impatient (and who already buy KOs).



It seems like V Cubes wants all the money it can get though XD



kastellorizo said:


> I mean, if they *can* do better than Verdes, why not try to do something even
> better and see how "easy" it is? (good question, isn't it? Words are always cheap).



Dayan already are.



kastellorizo said:


> And a patent is *by definition* a monopoly with an *expiry date*, which is
> why it has so high risk and costs, so that it can properly protect an inventor.



Attacking Dayan is damaging the community. I don't care about law, I care about sense. The Guhong is not Verdes' invention.



kastellorizo said:


> Am I missing something here? Some of you pretend to be in denial, just to justify your own "conclusions".



Denial about what?



kastellorizo said:


> I am happy to meet anyone in Perth, Singapore (from Sunday) or early January
> at the Hong Kong Toy Fair, to discuss this matter while sipping some nice fruit juice.
> I am also attending (and organising) some speedsolving competitions with the help
> of other friends, so we could also meet there.



I would love to do that, but I doubt you'll come to a competition that I'm going to attend. Maybe you want to come and discuss this issue on CubeCast? Everyone could listen to our discussion and make up their own minds.



kastellorizo said:


> I would like to end the same way I started: *Patience*. Things are almost there.
> (and I am not talking about years or months, but weeks!)



I don't want a V3, I want a Guhong.



kastellorizo said:


> PS. For communication other than meeting, please use PMs. If you reply here, you
> automatically prefer me to be confronted with some of the KO supporters (you know
> they exist here behind their "complaints").


 
I love knockoffs and I'm not going to hide this fact - everyone knows who I am. V Cubes and other companies could co exist and both be profitable. At the moment this tactic is harming V Cube sales, and people will still be able to freely buy Guhongs. 

If this carries on, I honestly hope V Cubes goes out of business so companies can sell great cubes without fear of unwarranted legal action.


----------



## HavoCentral (Dec 17, 2010)

kastellorizo said:


> ....... simply misguided by people who have absolutely
> no idea of how hard it is to manufacture, or about patents (I also don't claim I do!).
> I mean, if they *can* do better than Verdes, why not try to do something even
> better and see how "easy" it is? (good question, isn't it? Words are always cheap).


 
If *they* are the KO companies and *they* based there puzzles off of V-Cubes patents and improved on them in some ways.
If V-Cubes trys to do better than the KOs, wouldn't that mean they would have to stray from their original patented designs?


----------



## kastellorizo (Dec 17, 2010)

kastellorizo said:


> *That would be my last answer to you and to anyone else who loves to provoke others when I CLEARLY stated
> in my previous post that for this matter PMs are the way to go. * (Communication with people who don't understand
> simple English, is impossible).



(Many thanks to all those who have sent me PMs, and despite spending a lot of time to reply to them was worth it)


----------



## Kirjava (Dec 17, 2010)

It's a shame that you're refusing to discuss this publicly. Rude, even.

Not able to refute my points? 

by the way, kastellorizo has exceeded their stored private messages quota and cannot accept further messages until they clear some space.


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## qqwref (Dec 17, 2010)

The PM quota on this forum is way too small.

I think kastellorizo wants to discuss things over PM because he thinks the V-Cube discussion is a personal matter. But it isn't - it concerns the entire community.


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## tertius (Dec 17, 2010)

PM's are only private until they are posted in a public forum. I guess any *real* news or information will work its way out, if it exist.


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## endless_akatsuki (Dec 17, 2010)

Grr...time to stock up on Yj 5x5 before it's too late...(thankfully, I already have some guhongs)


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## emolover (Dec 17, 2010)

endless_akatsuki said:


> Grr...time to stock up on Yj 5x5 before it's too late...(thankfully, I already have some guhongs)


 
If im correct, you can still get them on lighttake.

*EDIT*

You can also still get Gu Hungs on lighttake.


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## kastellorizo (Dec 17, 2010)

The quota is way too small and has not accepted the last four messages.

In any case, I have responded to enough people. The rest, if you really care,
you can surely find my email. It was a big effort from my part, and I need to 
prepare for a flight as well as finalise many issues. 

I won't say more, I will leave those who have grudges to live with their grudges. 
I know DaYan cubes are popular, but for many here popular = legal. I am not saying they
are not legal, but the equality has be proven many times, so no point to argue.
I do love the way many make assumptions about me, but it *could* have been more creative LOL

My part is done here, and I also hope this matter is resolved. 
As I said before, Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!




Pantazis


----------



## Dene (Dec 17, 2010)

maggot said:


> no, because it says weeks... 'not years or months'


 
Also, do you think you could start using the shift key please? You seem to have put in extra effort to make your posts coherent and you seem to have intelligent things to say but the lack of capitalisation is killing me.


----------



## Pestvic (Dec 17, 2010)

*ridiculous....*

"Maybe you want to come and discuss this issue on CubeCast? Everyone could listen to our discussion and make up their own minds."

I think this is a Great idea. but they wouldn't give us the time. They just want to cripple good companies with their 'paper puzzles' So that THEY make the money. It's about money, it always is. Also, the charity and other 'help all' events they have are just another way to draw in customers. "This company is sooooo coool" It's a typical company thing to do. At least I believe this is how everyone is seeing it so far.

Anyway I'm not really on any side as of now. I signed the petition for reasons of my own. (which I will explain later)

I, like some, are waiting for more info. If Verdes is valid then thats all we can do and we tried as a community. If its not, then there is going to be some serious damage to the Vcube company from the community boycotting sales.

Regardless, here is my simple opinion and why I signed the petition as well. I think that the 3x3x3 Patents should just be left off the market completely. Every company has infringed on the expired patent that is Rubiks. It really is sad to me (from what I understand) that DIY's and all 3x3x3 modifications are infringing on the rubiks patent because It was the fact that the patent didnt extend to the US or expired, that caused this type of DIY explosion to happen. At times I wonder if rubiks had his patent secured what kind of profits he would of had to develop better puzzles. Anyway, back to my point. To me it just seems that Verdes are trying to take over the expired patents and be the sole sellers of 3x3x3 - 11x11x11. In my opinion I think thats bull... then again, I dont know enough to know if this is true or not so I'm not going to take sides just yet, I'll be patient. 

One thing I know is. having that Vcube friend/ Rep (kastellorizo) bashing on us or the community with the posts hes making here, is not a good thing for the company at all. 

In summary, Leave the 3x3x3 market alone. 4x4x4 sure, 5x5x5 definately. 3x3x3... Really???

Thanks for reading. 

Hopefully the outcome of all of this will come soon.

-Vic


----------



## Stefan (Dec 17, 2010)

kastellorizo said:


> I am not saying they are not legal



Good to know.



HavoCentral said:


> I was asking



No you weren't.


----------



## amostay2004 (Dec 17, 2010)

kastellorizo said:


> The quota is way too small and has not accepted the last four messages.
> 
> In any case, I have responded to enough people. The rest, if you really care,
> you can surely find my email. It was a big effort from my part, and I need to
> ...


 I doubt anyone wants to make a point with you anymore. All your replies clearly ignore the important points we're discussing and you seem to be living in your own world of logic that no one agrees with. 

Thank you though, as I used to doubt whether hating V-Cubes is just me thinking selfishly. Knowing that someone like you works for them brings me relief


----------



## Hyprul 9-ty2 (Dec 17, 2010)

Amos go to sleep. D: You have a competition in 2 hours


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## kastellorizo (Dec 17, 2010)

amostay2004 said:


> I doubt anyone wants to make a point with you anymore.



Sadly for you, many did, at least in private and civilised. Sorry to disappoint you.

Why so much passion in making wrong assumptions and spreading lies?



Stefan said:


> Good to know.


 
What I say, what I believe, and what is right are all different things. But being sarcastic is impolite.


----------



## TheMrCodith (Dec 17, 2010)

I dont see why oyu are supporting verdes and this is not true...


Drake said:


> Ya, the guhong is and lingyun are based on a 7x7 internal, but there are not close to be the same o.o. I thinked of that i wile ago, that v-cube would probly try that somme days, for jk, but din't think that they would really try.


----------



## TheMrCodith (Dec 17, 2010)

I hope my mom already bought me one for christmas! Also, you can still buy them on cube depot! Actually he just realesed a new one yesterday that has some sort of strong plastic to reduce friction...


----------



## HavoCentral (Dec 17, 2010)

TheMrCodith said:


> I hope my mom already bought me one for christmas! Also, you can still buy them on cube depot! Actually he just realesed a new one yesterday that has some sort of strong plastic to reduce friction...


 
lol, the verdes hammer has not found his way there yet. I hope it doesnt, since I was planning a massive order in january.


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## amostay2004 (Dec 17, 2010)

kastellorizo said:


> Sadly for you, many did, at least in private and civilised. Sorry to disappoint you.
> 
> Why so much passion in making wrong assumptions and spreading lies?


Yes indeed, it's sad that people are still trying to talk sense into you. Once again you've ignored the part about you not making any sensible argument to our points though. You don't give us enough information and blame us for making wrong assumptions and lying? Way to go.

Also to anyone who has PM'ed kastellorizo and received a satisfactory reply, please do tell us, because I have yet to hear anything about all these PMs. You don't even have to leak the content of the message.


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## Stefan (Dec 17, 2010)

kastellorizo said:


> What I say, what I believe, and what is right are all different things. But being sarcastic is impolite.



No idea why you think that was sarcastic. It *is* good to know, and might come in handy later.


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## Kirjava (Dec 17, 2010)

kastellorizo said:


> What I say, what I believe, and what is right are all different things. But being sarcastic is impolite.


 
Hey wait...


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## Kirjava (Dec 17, 2010)

Excuse me chris.

kastellorizo states that he'll no longer reply to questions.

we ask questions anyway.

instead of answering, he taunts us with the fact that he said he wouldn't answer, then goes on to further provoke people despite stating that he would no longer communicate.

There is nothing inappropriate with what I posted, kastellorizo is trolling us.


----------



## cmhardw (Dec 17, 2010)

I am, and other moderators are as well, heavily moderating this thread as many of you may already be able to tell. I am getting really frustrated by the tone being taken in a number of posts here.

This warning applies to everyone posting in this thread: Keep the discussion civil, regardless of your level of frustration or emotion on the issue.


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## Kirjava (Dec 17, 2010)

In other news, I just ordered some Guhongs


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## Carrot (Dec 17, 2010)

Kirjava said:


> In other news, I just ordered some Guhongs


 
Awesome!!


----------



## JerC (Dec 17, 2010)

Kirjava said:


> In other news, I just ordered some Guhongs


 
Hi Five! :tu


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## peedu (Dec 17, 2010)

Listen, Kastellorizo, I have been a happy customer of V-cubes so far. Also introduced V-cubes to several other people.

I'm not even sure that Mr. Verdes is behind all that mess we have here.

When such things happen, then it is normal that people are not happy about it and will attack the initiator. Or a spokesman in our case. Actually not a spokesman, but poorly-writersman.

Several questions have been asked in a polite manner and most of your answers are just complaining about people attacking you or saying that you know something that nobody else does and that others should be patient.
Others have been patient, but patience has it's limits especially when something that people like (Guhong) gets blamed for something and it is not even clear what's the reason.

Luckily you have cleared things up. Here is the quote:



kastellorizo said:


> What I say, what I believe, and what is right are all different things. But being sarcastic is impolite.


 
I understand the following:
- you don't say what you believe,
- you believe something that is not right,
- you don't say what is right (in other words - lying).
- you are not polite.

Thank you,


Peedu


----------



## daniel0731ex (Dec 17, 2010)

anyway, here's my stance on this issue:

First, I don't care if Verde created proverty in China or whatever, that's not relevant to the topic at all. I find it reasonable for the Maru 4x4 to be forced off the shelf, because it's just a blatant copy of the V-cube 4 patent. But from what I am seeing here is that the the Guhong bears no resemblence to the V-cube 3 patent (kastellorizo, if you disagree, please elaborate on of which part is the Guhong copied off from the V3). This is fact, and there is no sense in being dogmatic on your opinion as the situation is obvious.

Second, there is no benefit in going after one of the last innovative puzzle designer in China when other KOs are still at large. I think Verde is just plainly lashing out at anyone he could right now, because he is unable to get at the larger YJ/Zhisheng etc. I thought that the best thing to do is rather encouraging innovation in China to reduce knockoffs, rather than venting on them angrily.


-Daniel


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## qqwref (Dec 17, 2010)

kastellorizo said:


> The quota is way too small and has not accepted the last four messages.


In case you didn't know - deleting old messages will free up space.

But I think you would rather not have to deal with the many people who have a problem with the things you have been saying.


----------



## Radu (Dec 17, 2010)

I just found this thread today and read it all. As far as I see the community reaction Verdes Innovations is not in a very good position right now.

I don't know if GuHong is a V3 copy or not. I do think there are some minor similarities, but don't know if enough to prove it's a KO. 

What I don't understand and would like to know, is: Why did they come up with this now? And not immediately GuHong was released? I remember that V Cubes came after the 9 and 11 KO's the first week they appeared and sent a newsletter to prevent people buying those. Why didn't they do the same for Dayan if it's indeed a copy? They've been out like for over 6-7 months.

I don't think V Cubes can win this battle...even if it's legally proved that GuHong is a copy.


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## guoguo (Dec 17, 2010)

This thread remembers me of this other one:

http://twistypuzzles.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=15689#p191508


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## kastellorizo (Dec 17, 2010)

Stefan said:


> No idea why you think that was sarcastic. It *is* good to know, and might come in handy later.


 
Well it sounded like it was. Anyway, appreciated that it was not sarcastic.


Just to clarify my views, because *many here, still do not have a clue* of what is going on:

1. I believe V-Cubes is right (yes, an *opinion* as I believe there is similarity to the pieces)
2. Some believe V-Cubes is wrong (yes, another entitled *opinion*)

Until the verdict is clear, it will be more logical/sensible/fair to wait. No?

This matter seems to be a rather complex one, and explaining it in detail 
here, among frustrated cubers is surely not a wise thing. 
Others, want me to describe in detail the entire patent conflict.
If I could, then I would be a V-Cube lawyer. But am not. 

Moreover, some of you say I am bashing others, but the same people have *missed* 
the name calling that I have received (rightfully edited by mods). 
The *personal* animosity against me with personal insults, just verifies bad manners, 
as if I am not allowed to express myself for a specific case. Why call names? 
And suddenly, *I* am treated as the reason of the ebay warning, though I had nothing to do with it. 
Yes, I support my opinion, just like you all have the right to do. But do I call anyone names? 

Regarding the news, I said "weeks" because using the words "months"
would not make sense, as the timing is *less* than a couple of months. 
Is this so hard to understand? Instead some of you patronised my comment,
by saying "thousands of weeks" and other sarcastic comments. Would *you*
be disappointed in my position if you revealed this information and then been
bashed? (it is not a load of information, but it *is* information, especially
as I gave more hints!). 

And then, you blame me for threatening that I won't say news again!
(meanwhile, I am being targeted with personal attacks!).

Finally, the argument of teaming up with KO companies is a matter of opinion
and the strategy of a specific company. There are good and bad examples 
for both cases.

If you did not want a messenger, you just needed to tell me beforehand
and that would have saved all of us of a lot of wasted time. 

I'd rather focus on other puzzle activities at the moment, but I find it
very unlikely to get into this information situation again.

I never meant to insult anyone (can someone quote me where in the world I did?
many of you say I am bashing, but as explained above, it is the other way around).

*take big breath*


Pantazis


----------



## kastellorizo (Dec 17, 2010)

qqwref said:


> But I think you would rather not have to deal with the many people who have a problem with the things you have been saying.


 
Before you made your assumption you were wrong.
After you did, you were right. 

If there is no respect towards me, I cannot respect others
who make false assumptions.


----------



## Tyson (Dec 17, 2010)

kastellorizo said:


> Until the verdict is clear, it will be more logical/sensible/fair to wait. No?



Sure, so why wasn't there a waiting period before the infringement report was filed to PayPal and EBay? Why not let this get through the courts first before filing the paper work?


----------



## kastellorizo (Dec 17, 2010)

peedu said:


> When such things happen, then it is normal that people are not happy about it and will attack the initiator.


 

Yes, indeed. But is it right? Would *you* like to be in their position? Would you ever be in their position to understand?



peedu said:


> I understand the following:
> - you don't say what you believe,
> - you believe something that is not right,
> - you don't say what is right (in other words - lying).
> - you are not polite.


 
So you being sarcastic is polite? While when I express my stance is not? Wow...
Some have understood this already, so your effort was again to ridicule me. Why?


----------



## Pixel 6 (Dec 17, 2010)

Kirjava said:


> In other news, I just ordered some Guhongs


 
Well thankfully if I only go thru 1 GuHong a week I'll have enough to last me 5 years or so... Or until Vcube releases their knockoff of the GuHong... I mean their patented model built to exacting quality and specifications. Ooh, and with high quality rivets! Bonus! And that super smooth plastic they use, and don't forget those high quality stickers. Not to mention you can get it in any color you want... So long as it's white. 

It's said to be the 3x3 that's going to replace all 3x3s right? Or perhaps out perform all that came before it? Let's face it, they are not known to release the best in quality. All jokes aside, how can they possibly believe deep down that their 3x3 can replace some of the current designs?

The only thing that'd really make me laugh... Is if they designed it with a multicolor plastic. Atleast then the V3x3 could be banned from competition without bias. 

Shoot... I've probably just given them too many ideas... Back to the drawing board Verdes!

I'm going to take some of the knock-off guhong parts I have lying around here and build a 3x3 illusion before they do. Or maybe the USA cube...

- Pixel -




I guess by then I can decide which GuHong will be my main.


----------



## oprah62 (Dec 17, 2010)

Pixel 6 said:


> So long as it's white.


 
Henry Ford style?


----------



## Litz (Dec 17, 2010)

Stefan said:


> You entered this thread making claims about a video. I asked you three times to show it, but you still haven't. Must be extremely hard to post a link to a video I'm supposed to find easily. And how many times did I and others want to know what the infringement is? You didn't even once even come close to answering that.


I'm still waiting on this.



kastellorizo said:


> 1. I believe V-Cubes is right (yes, an *opinion* as I believe there is similarity to the pieces)


And no, this isn't a viable answer.


----------



## kastellorizo (Dec 17, 2010)

Tyson said:


> Sure, so why wasn't there a waiting period before the infringement report was filed to PayPal and EBay? Why not let this get through the courts first before filing the paper work?


 
I do not know enough details for this, and even if I dared to say, 
I am sure some people will bash me and then claim *they* are the one being bashed.


----------



## kastellorizo (Dec 17, 2010)

Litz said:


> And no, this isn't a viable answer.


 
You are entitled to your opinion.


----------



## HavoCentral (Dec 17, 2010)

Pixel 6 said:


> Well thankfully if I only go thru 1 GuHong a week I'll have enough to last me 5 years or so..... Is if they designed it with a multicolor plastic. Atleast then the V3x3 could be banned from competition without bias.
> 
> Shoot... I've probably just given them too many ideas... Back to the drawing board Verdes!
> 
> ...


 
LOLOLOLOL

I agree completely, how can they claim their V3 is so superior unless they have prototypes to test.
and instead of releasing all the novelty puzzles that are a waste of money, they should make good on their promises of the full V-Cube family, 2-11.


----------



## Pixel 6 (Dec 17, 2010)

oprah62 said:


> Henry Ford style?


 


I mean it worked for Ford didn't it?

- Pixel -


----------



## Kirjava (Dec 17, 2010)

Hey, kastellorizo. Since you're still posting here can you reply to the points I made in my post?

It's odd that you're replying to everyone else but ignoring me entirely.

Here's a handy link so you don't even have to go looking for it!


----------



## gravityjoe35 (Dec 17, 2010)

The link below is a petition that will actually be seen by Verdes. Sign if you want the guhong/lingyun back!!!

link: http://www.petitiononline.com/VeVsDa/petition.html


----------



## Stefan (Dec 17, 2010)

kastellorizo said:


> Until the verdict is clear, it will be more logical/sensible/fair to wait. No?



Absolutely. Wish Verdes would do that.



kastellorizo said:


> This matter seems to be a rather complex one, and explaining it in detail here, among frustrated cubers is surely not a wise thing.



Um... many if not most are frustrated *because* it's not explained at all. I'm very confident that it would be a very wise thing to explain. Wouldn't even have to be in full detail.



Kirjava said:


> It's odd that you're replying to everyone else



Though, what good are replies that aren't answers?


----------



## Whyusosrs? (Dec 17, 2010)

kastellorizo said:


> I won't say more[...]
> My part is done here, and I also hope this matter is resolved. [...]
> Pantazis


 


kastellorizo said:


> Pantazis



Still posting 



kastellorizo said:


> Before you made your assumption you were wrong.
> After you did, you were right.


 
And again



kastellorizo said:


> I do not know enough details for this, and even if I dared to say,
> I am sure some people will bash me and then claim *they* are the one being bashed.


 
And another time.

I think I missed one, but you should get my point. You said you would stop posting so stop posting or answer the real questions instead of nitpicking. kk? kk.


----------



## tacgnol (Dec 17, 2010)

kastellorizo said:


> Before you made your assumption you were wrong.
> After you did, you were right.
> 
> If there is no respect towards me, I cannot respect others
> who make false assumptions.


 
Understandable. I've dealt with a similar situation.

It is also very understandable that you wish to only speak in PMs.


----------



## HavoCentral (Dec 17, 2010)

gravityjoe35 said:


> The link below is a petition that will actually be seen by Verdes. Sign if you want the guhong/lingyun back!!!
> 
> link: http://www.petitiononline.com/VeVsDa/petition.html


 
I started the petition in hopes that V-Cube sees it and how much business they are losing, lets hope it works.

16 signatures left before 200, as of 5:47 Central Time


----------



## Tyson (Dec 17, 2010)

kastellorizo said:


> I do not know enough details for this, and even if I dared to say,
> I am sure some people will bash me and then claim *they* are the one being bashed.


 
Wait, what do you mean you don't know enough details? Isn't that what this entire thing is about? Or am I missing something? You're asking people to wait in terms of their judgement, but you find it perfectly acceptable to file injunctions with PayPal and EBay and cripple small business who are providing a service that V-Cubes has not entered, and frankly will never be V-Cubes' market anyway.

So if you don't know enough about the details of PayPal and EBay, why are you even in this discussion?


----------



## kastellorizo (Dec 17, 2010)

Stefan said:


> Um... many if not most are frustrated *because* it's not explained at all. I'm very confident that it would be a very wise thing to explain. Wouldn't even have to be in full detail.?


 
Ugh... explain my opinion? Then what? Another hundred posts to reply for 
"even more details"? No thanks. 

I do not remember being the V-Cube lawyer anyway to be able to expand on this.


----------



## Whyusosrs? (Dec 17, 2010)

kastellorizo said:


> In any case, I have responded to enough people.[...]
> 
> I won't say more,[...]
> 
> ...


 
Might I remind you of what you said two hours ago?


----------



## kastellorizo (Dec 17, 2010)

Tyson said:


> Wait, what do you mean you don't know enough details? Isn't that what this entire thing is about? Or am I missing something? You're asking people to wait in terms of their judgement, but you find it perfectly acceptable to file injunctions with PayPal and EBay and cripple small business who are providing a service that V-Cubes has not entered, and frankly will never be V-Cubes' market anyway.
> 
> So if you don't know enough about the details of PayPal and EBay, why are you even in this discussion?



Yes, I am also not sure of what is going on the backstage, and I am also waiting. I only wanted to:

1. Support the decision (i.e. opinion - my "explanation" was about my opinion, not the ebay action!!!)
2. Give some hints for new releases to release some frustration (for which I was bashed instead!)

I have been spending more time defending myself than being able to even think to explain!
(and others did not care much to check what I have been saying - thank God someone did!)

Pantazis


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## kastellorizo (Dec 18, 2010)

Whyusosrs? said:


> Might I remind you of what you said two hours ago?


 
If people were writing wrong assumptions and insults, would you stay or would you leave?
That is the question. It is not nice to patronise like that, as I am sure you know what is going on.


----------



## Kirjava (Dec 18, 2010)

Stefan said:


> Though, what good are replies that aren't answers?


 
Better than being flat out ignored, at least I'd have something to work with then XD


----------



## Tyson (Dec 18, 2010)

kastellorizo said:


> If people were writing wrong assumptions and insults, would you stay or would you leave?
> That is the question. It is not nice to patronise like that, as I am sure you know what is going on.


 
I would defend myself with logic and facts, and if I had sound logic, and the facts to support my position, all the intelligent people on this forum would be defending me.

Do you understand the frustration of people on this forum? Would you care to summarize the other point of view, to show us that you indeed know what's going on? I'll summarize your side for you if you want.


----------



## Kirjava (Dec 18, 2010)

kastellorizo said:


> If people were writing wrong assumptions and insults, would you stay or would you leave?


 
Awesome, since you haven't addressed anything I've said I can only assume that you think I'm completely right!


----------



## HavoCentral (Dec 18, 2010)

kastellorizo said:


> I have been spending more time defending myself than being able to even think to explain!
> (and others did not care much to check what I have been saying - thank God someone did!)
> 
> Pantazis



Instead of defending yourself, ignore us and have your precious time to think, then explain, and maybe you wont have to defend your self anymore.

btw, Have you missed your flight yet?


----------



## cmhardw (Dec 18, 2010)

This thread is now closed.

Pantazis is under no obligation to add more detail to this discussion until V-cubes, who he is here representing, is ready to divulge this information.

For business owners who are affected by this decision, I strongly recommend that you contact V-cubes directly with your concerns, as well as sign the petition. Business owners who are upset about the decision to close this thread may contact me personally via PM for further discussion of how to continue addressing their concerns.

For those members who are upset about the prospect of GuHong cubes no longer being available, I would suggest that you sign the petition.

The arguing in this thread is accomplishing nothing in my opinion, and it will not continue. For those upset about the closing of the thread, please read the forum rules about what constitutes acceptable discussion on this forum. Any other duplicate versions of this thread will be closed and/or deleted until further information is divulged from the V-cube company either through Pantazis or another representative of the company. If you feel that the closing of this thread is premature, and you disagree with my actions, then you may take it up with an administrator or the forum owner via PM.

Happy cubing,
Chris


----------



## cmhardw (Dec 19, 2010)

This thread has been re-opened for continued discussion. For those who have been banned previously, please let that serve as a reminder to keep the discussion in this thread from getting out of hand. For those who have not yet posted on this issue, be aware that this discussion is still being moderated. The clear demand for discussion on this topic has led to the re-opening of this thread.

If arguments begin to get heated, please take them to PM, and please try to keep this thread as free from personal insults toward each other as possible.

Happy cubing,
Chris


----------



## Zarxrax (Dec 19, 2010)

Thanks for reopening the thread Chris. Hopefully we can have a civil discussion.


----------



## daniel0731ex (Dec 19, 2010)

from what I have been seeing here, the discussion with katt is really getting carried away. It looks to me that katt seems to be avoiding the main point all along...

No offences intended, just pointing what I have observed out.


----------



## Julian (Dec 19, 2010)

Does anybody actually know how a company like Verdes Innovations managed to get a company like *eBay* to remove the listings when DaYan has not yet been proven guilty of patent infringement? Thanks, I'm still trying to get informed about this issue.


----------



## ElectricDoodie (Dec 19, 2010)

Verdes us just trolling.


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## FatBoyXPC (Dec 19, 2010)

Not as if it is any surprise, but I asked Pantazis in a PM several times to point out the similarities. I also asked him to show the video. All I got was how I seem to not understand what he's saying and that a lawyer would have to explain it to me. I asked several times for the video (as did Stefan) and he still avoided it in a PM. He also mentioned how that this will be decided by a judge if (and yes, he said if) it goes to court. He argued in the PM very much like he did in this thread (as such bringing up points from this thread that I didn't bring up, etc). 

He said he mentioned several times (which he didn't, the same PM where he mentioned this, is the only one) about the "conical" shape of the pieces in the video if you zoom in on something, then zoom out of something else (didn't provide images, or even times in the video to specify which pieces, nor did he even say a corner or edge), then it looks similar to the V-Cube 3 Patent (which he didn't specify to which part of that patent either). I asked for images to better detail it, and he said he couldn't get me any (I asked specifically of the GuHong pieces). If he was talking about the video that izovire gave us, the video mentions the corner stems being similar, not any sort of conical shape, unless I missed something.


----------



## Stefan (Dec 19, 2010)

Julian said:


> Does anybody actually know how a company like Verdes Innovations managed to get a company like *eBay* to remove the listings when DaYan has not yet been proven guilty of patent infringement?


 
"eBay removes listings when a Verified Rights Owner claims that there was a violation."
-- http://pages.ebay.ca/help/policies/questions/vero-ended-item.html

"all you need to do is download our Notice of Claimed Infringement (NOCI) form, fill it out, and fax it to eBay."
-- http://pages.ebay.ca/help/tp/vero-rights-owner.html

Download eBay's NOCI form

In short: You just need to state that you're the IP owner and that *you* believe the article infringes, and it's gone. You don't need to provide or even _have_ evidence.


----------



## Fire Cuber (Dec 19, 2010)

hi mods, can you delete that long, annoying post? thanks alot. =)

Edit : Thanks for Stefan for reminding, I totally forget


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## Stefan (Dec 19, 2010)

Fire Cuber said:


> hi mods, can you delete that long, annoying post? thanks alot. =)


 
"REPORT POST"


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## Edward (Dec 19, 2010)

No need to delete, all it needs is a spoiler to clean it up :T

>I have no opinion on this vcubes matter. Just waiting for it to blow over


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## tertius (Dec 19, 2010)

USA, China and Japan have rights to enforce the patent laws per your list.


----------



## Pixel 6 (Dec 19, 2010)

A few more points to make about the topic.



Spoiler



I contacted eBay shortly after my listing was pulled, and used their chat window link to talk to an eBay representative about my listing being pulled.

They confirmed that Verdes Innovations S.A. were the ones to file the complaint to eBay. I was unable to get any of my further questions answered, because they were inquiring to things that violated other peoples privacy. Most of my questions were answered with "you will need to contact Verdes Innovations for that answer".

eBay is obligated to follow thru on any sort of claim like Verdes made. It's set up like that to protect eBay from mistakes. Makes sense. I was warned by eBay that re-listing the cubes before getting a release of the claim from Verdes could result in my account being banned.


An interesting point I'd like to make on the eBay listing being removed, is that I have done that to someone before, and was very easy to do.

I DJ, and ordered a bag from a seller that was selling the newest Native Instruments bag for some midi controllers I bought that had just come out like a week before. I get the bag in, and am immediately pretty let down. It was horrible quality, and not what I had expected after hearing all the hype of how good they were supposed to be.

After doing more research on what the bag was supposed to look like, it became clear that the person I bought it from was silk-screening Native Instruments' name on bags, and selling them as knock offs.

My process was this: 
I contacted Native Instruments, and told them of the suspected KO. I contacted eBay, and opened a dispute because the bag I received was a suspected KO. Within 2 hours the auction the seller had was removed. Shortly after it was removed, the seller was banned.

That was from me simply sending one message to eBay, and informing Native Instruments of the issue.

My point being, I can objectively see this from both perspectives, and I also know how simple it was for Verdes to accomplish this. I was told that they did not need to prove to eBay that they were being infringed on... only that they stated that they were the rightful people make the claim.

I still have yet to see a document from a court of law that shows what Verdes did is legal. 

And to clarify on another aspect of the topic... In my video, I stated that people should consider protecting themselves from potential attack from Verdes because of the GuHong / LingYun. This is still my personal perspective. I have not heard of any cubing stores receiving a cease and desist letter from Verdes, or any other action for that matter. I was simply letting people they may want to consider wether or not they want to be on the radar if this was a only the first step from Verdes.

I haven't heard of Verdes perusing any cubing stores for the infringement issue. Perhaps the cubing stores took action to be on the safe side, and Verdes doesn't need to go any further... or perhaps Verdes never planned on taking any action past the eBay listing removals. We have no information from Verdes, so can only speculate.

As far as I know, there is no legal justification for Verdes pulling all the eBay auctions. eBay owns PayPal (or other way around, not sure) and it is in my best interest to not list the cubes on my site, since I use PayPal for all of my sales transactions. Therefor if action is taken against my PayPal, they could stop my business completely. A few out-of-country cubing stores are still selling the cubes from what I was reading yesterday, and a few USA based ones... I'm not sure if Verdes can or will go after them for this, but again, I am not willing to take that risk based on PayPal attacks that Verdes has made on other stores... namely SpeedCubeShop. (He has video information on this, so I believe it is ok to mention.)

Lastly,
I have sent 2 emails to Verdes, with a 3rd to follow tomorrow requesting information on their actions. I have not received a reply.


And thank you Chris for re-opening this thread. I hope to see some good come of it.

- Pixel -


----------



## y3k9 (Dec 19, 2010)

Can someone link me to the guhong patent please?


----------



## Zarxrax (Dec 19, 2010)

y3k9 said:


> Can someone link me to the guhong patent please?


The guhong probably isnt patented.


----------



## Stefan (Dec 19, 2010)

Pixel 6 said:


> I still have yet to see a document from a court of law that shows what Verdes did is legal.



Regarding what they did on ebay: They don't even have to be right about the infringement. They just have to reasonably *believe* they're right. That's what they state in ebay's form.


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## Kapusta (Dec 19, 2010)

Τσάρος Βερδες said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You left out the Vatican. The pope can use a GuHong.

Personally, I think it's missing a key part in the mechanism from the patent drawing, which is the protruding parts coming out of the center piece. I understand V Cubes' position, but I fail to see how the GuHong even fits into the patent, besides that the corner is a little similar.


----------



## Stefan (Dec 19, 2010)

Kapusta said:


> The pope can use a GuHong.


 
And God's algorithm. OMG Feliks watch out.


----------



## ~Phoenix Death~ (Dec 19, 2010)

Stefan said:


> And God's algorithm. OMG Feliks watch out.


 
OMG LOL


----------



## Matt (Dec 19, 2010)

I'll be fine with V-Cubes shutting down Dayan GuHongs IF they will freaking come out with the remaining V-Cube 2-11's that he has patents on. If the GuHong IS similar enough to deserve copyright infringment, the one Verdes makes would work AND sell just as well IF IT WOULD COME OUT..


----------



## y3k9 (Dec 19, 2010)

How about this: V-cube and dayan work together to make a cube together.


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## ~Phoenix Death~ (Dec 19, 2010)

y3k9 said:


> How about this: V-cube and dayan work together to make a cube together.


 
There's something that doesn't feel right about that...


----------



## y3k9 (Dec 19, 2010)

~Phoenix Death~ said:


> There's something that doesn't feel right about that...


I know, but if that really did happen the cube would be amazing.


----------



## DavidWoner (Dec 19, 2010)

Any further bashing of v-cubes, verdes, or supporters of either side will result in a ban (length to be determined). Criticism is ok, but only if you have HARD EVIDENCE. Example of such would be pixel's posts about his interactions with ebay, or the earlier link posted to the explanation about the conic structure of v-cubes, etc. Most of you do not have any hard evidence. I would advise you to shut up. This is your warning.

Note: Not reading this post and being ignorant of this announcement is not grounds for reprieve. If you are going to post in a thread about a sensitive topic such as this, you should read all prior discussion.

Edit1: Unless you are a patent lawyer, don't make presumptuous comments about the legitimacy of the patent infringement claim. Speculation is okay, as long as you are not being stupid or disrespectful.


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## Kapusta (Dec 19, 2010)

Not sure if this has been answered yet, but are guhongs still competition legal? Or are they banned from competition until this whole mess gets sorted out?


----------



## musicninja17 (Dec 19, 2010)

Yes, they're comp legal...


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## o2gulo (Dec 19, 2010)

Yeah. GuHong is still legal(i think and i hope so) because Verdes only took guhongs in ebay.


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## DavidWoner (Dec 19, 2010)

Kapusta said:


> Not sure if this has been answered yet, but are guhongs still competition legal? Or are they banned from competition until this whole mess gets sorted out?


 
Asked and answered. This information is also available if you read the WCA Regulations. Which is what you should have done first.

Please, do not make me add a clause about asking things that have already been asked. We are trying to keep the pointless posts in this thread to a minimum, and if that is what needs to be done, then we'll do it.


----------



## da25centz (Dec 19, 2010)

I've had a patent on winged planes for years. Althought I have never made one, and my designs are terrible, Nobody else can build airplanes with wings because I have the patent.

does that make sense to you?


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## tertius (Dec 19, 2010)

All airfoils are protected and can not be claimed by one party. 

Yes it makes sense. I have attempted to file for a patent, it was rejected due to it being filed by another company. They have no prototype and no plans of making it at this point (it is only on paper), yet it is THEIR patent and I can not make it without paying royalties (at best).


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## Dene (Dec 19, 2010)

Fire Cuber said:


> Don't you forget about pulling maru and this one? This makes the speedsolving community become worse because, there were no good cubes. But yeah, what you're saying is completely right. So I think if they continue with this, they will make the speedsolving community became more worse. But, if they continue like what you're saying... The speedsolving will become better.


 
I would like to point out that there are still plenty of good cubes, including Guhongs. As for 4x4, get the Dayan which is clearly superior to the maru.


----------



## Fire Cuber (Dec 19, 2010)

Dene said:


> I would like to point out that there are still plenty of good cubes, including *Guhongs*. As for 4x4, get the Dayan which is clearly superior to the maru.


 
LOL.

As for Dayan and Maru, I don't think that all peoples says that Dayan which is clearly superior to the maru.


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## ~Adam~ (Dec 19, 2010)

cube-o-holic said:


> A thousand weeks is still weeks. They can always fall back on that.





kastellorizo said:


> Instead some of you patronised my comment,
> by saying "thousands of weeks" and other sarcastic comments.



If you had simply put less than 2 months in the 1st place such comments wouldn't be made. Yet.


----------



## Toquinha1977 (Dec 19, 2010)

Preaching to the choir here: On a consumer's standpoint, it's complete weaksauce that V-Cubes will enforce patents for products that aren't even available on the market. This reminds me of Monster Cable, who will go after anyone with the word "Monster" in their product name (Monster Energy Drinks, Monster Mini Golf, Disney's Monsters Inc., etc.). They pretty much own the market on 5x5x5s to 7x7x7s, and even though there are other major manufacturers of 5x5x5s, theirs has pretty much been determined to be the best on the market. 

The market for 3x3x3s is very well saturated with dozens of manufacturers (including Rubik's) on the market. With Rubik's being the most well known brand and most widely available, they are going to be the most purchased by the general public, because as speedcubers, we're actually a pretty niche market. When's the last time you went into a Walmart or a ToysRUs and saw a Chinese DIY kit in a plastic bag, hanging on a peg? You haven't. So, how much of a dent can Verdes make if they put the VCube 3 on the market? For starters, It'll cost twice as much as the Rubik's if and when it comes out. As it is, Verdes products are manufactured in Greece, which will give them increased manufacturing costs and longer product turnaround. It'll be pretty tough to meet demand in an already-competitive market.

This is probably why they're doing it. It's infinitely cheaper to wave patents in people's faces than it is to market, manufacture, and distribute product. But, it's clearly backfiring on them. If they would at least update the website (last update: March 2010) and give us actual news on upcoming products, people would be a little more forgiving.


----------



## prostx23 (Dec 19, 2010)

Hi,

I wonder if any actual lawsuits are filed, where they'd be filed. In China? Here in the US? What would US lawyers or judges know from chinese sppeedcubes? And if a suit was sucessfully brought in the US would that simply stop DaYan from selling cubes here, rather then shutting down the company altogether? This is *opinion* and *speculation* (this is still allowed right mods?), but this to me really seems like they are not going to persue shutting down DaYan (I get the feeling that this kind of lawsuit in China is a non starter), or even stop them from making GuHongs... they will simply stop them from being sold in the biggest markets, therefore driving them underground, so to speak.

Mike


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## Zarxrax (Dec 19, 2010)

I believe it is probably a good idea to summarize the known FACTS of this case so far, so that everyone is on the same page. There have been lots of opinions, speculation, and bad information so far.

1. V-cubes filed a patent complaint to ebay to have all guhong (and probably lingyun) auctions removed, on the claim that the cubes violate their patent.

2. Guhong cubes are still available for sale at other locations besides ebay.

3. We don't know if v-cubes has contacted dayan to make them stop production, or if v-cubes has filed a lawsuit with any court of law.

4. Because Paypal is owned by Ebay, small sellers are afraid to sell guhongs through their paypal accounts.

5. Because this has happened right before Christmas, it is causing great harm to the small retailers who sell guhongs.

6. As of yet, V-cubes has not offered any sort of statement or explanation of the situation.

7. Guhong cubes are not officially in violation of V-cubes patent unless a court of law rules in v-cubes favor. Right now, V-cubes is merely claiming that they think guhong is a violation.

8. If the guhong does violate v-cubes patent, then whether or not v-cubes manufactures a 3x3x3 cube has no bearing on the law. Patenting something to prevent other companies from producing it is a valid business move than many companies do all the time.

[Editorial]
I think it's unfortunate that V-cubes has still chosen not to make any sort of statement regarding this situation after several days. If v-cubes are falsely or mistakenly claiming an infringement, then they have caused much damage to both dayan and several small cube sellers. If they are correct and guhong does violate their patent, then I think it is in bad taste to go after small sellers rather than the dayan company.


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## choza244 (Dec 19, 2010)

Oh, I didn't know that this thread was opened again, I will post this here because it was here where I wanted to post my opinion but in that moment the thread was closed.



Spoiler



This is my point of view of this situation and I just hope that the others respect my opinion.

From what I can see, the mechanism of the DaYan GuHong is different from the mechanisms of the V-cubes, is different from the V-cube 3 (that is in the patents) and is different from the other V-cubes (5, 6, and 7). I really don't know exactly why Verdes is claiming that was copied or why the GuHong is infringing their patents but from what I can see the design is very different.

I agree that a lot of people have not realized the effort of Verdes when he designed the V-cube mechanisms and that he paid a lot of money to patent his invention. But I also think that almost anyone have realized that the designer of the GuHong also had to work a lot designing the mechanism and making it work properly, so why anybody think that the designer of the GuHong also did a great effort to design a good mechanism? because from my point of view, even if the designer was inspired in the V-cube mech, it did a completelly new and different design, so for me it was not copied and I really think that the people can see that it was not copied.

What I do not agree is the way the V-cube company is doing this things, first if they think the GuHong is infringing their patents they have all the rights to fight, but for me it should have been like making a demand to the Dayan company (legally) and not trying to remove their products from the market before the legal veredict, like they are doing now.
Apart of that and like I said, for me that legal veredic would be that the design of the GuHong is not infringing the patents in any way so it could continue being selled, but that's just my opinion, and from my point of view is not coincidence that the V-cube company is trying to remove the GuHongs just before christmas, for me is just a dirty move, and is just an attempt to eradicate a good product that is selling well these days. (why they didn't do the same with the YJ products first?)

So that's why I do not agree with Verdes actions and that's why i decided that if they keep with this situation i will not buy any of their products anymore.

Thanks if you took the time to read this and sorry for my english


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## FatBoyXPC (Dec 19, 2010)

Have there actually been Lingyuns removed from eBay? I remember in izovire's and Pixel 6's video that they were unsure if the Lingyun was affected by this infringement claim.


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## prostx23 (Dec 19, 2010)

fatboyxpc said:


> Have there actually been Lingyuns removed from eBay? I remember in izovire's and Pixel 6's video that they were unsure if the Lingyun was affected by this infringement claim.




One would think that they would want to go after the LingYun as well, as it's mostly a tweak of the GuHong, I'd think it's strange if they didn't. And if they don't...kinda makes you wonder...


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## brunson (Dec 19, 2010)

Stefan said:


> And God's algorithm. OMG Feliks watch out.


 
The pope is very old and his turning speed is very slow. Feliks has nothing to worry about.


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## Zarxrax (Dec 19, 2010)

fatboyxpc said:


> Have there actually been Lingyuns removed from eBay? I remember in izovire's and Pixel 6's video that they were unsure if the Lingyun was affected by this infringement claim.


 
Well i did a search for lingyun on ebay, and only 1 cube came up. I would think that there would be much more than 1 if ebay hadn't taken any action against it.


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## Toquinha1977 (Dec 19, 2010)

How's this for an idea...have Verdes license out the patent, if indeed the GuHong borrows from the V-Cube patents. Either a reasonable one-time license fee or a fixed percentage of the net intake from the sale of GuHongs and LingYungs. As there is no official word from Verdes about the status of V-Cube 2-4, 8-11, from the public view, it's essentially on-hold indefinitely, which means there are zero winners if Verdes continues to proceed in this manner. Verdes makes no money as they have no product to fulfill 3x3x3-4x4x4 markets, cannot fund development/production, and takes a serious public relations hit (ie: boycott from the cubing community). Small business retailers are stuck with thousands of dollars of unsellable merchandise. Customers are left with fewer choices. Even if V-Cube does come forth with V-Cube 3 and 4, they will lag behind in terms of meeting demand (production facilities in Greece vs. China) and competitive pricing (expect a V-Cube 3 to cost at least $16).


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## CuberKyle (Dec 19, 2010)

just bought a GuHong on amazon... if you dont have one i would reccomend doing the same


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## qqwref (Dec 19, 2010)

DavidWoner said:


> This information is also available if you read the WCA Regulations. Which is what you should have done first.


It's nice for us speedcubers that even cubes which might be technically illegal to own and sell can still be allowed in competition. I doubt the GuHong will get to that point, but if it does a little black market in cubing may well develop.



Toquinha1977 said:


> The market for 3x3x3s is very well saturated with dozens of manufacturers (including Rubik's) on the market. [...] So, how much of a dent can Verdes make if they put the VCube 3 on the market?


This is a good point. When the V5 through V7 came out, everyone was amazed by the quality and turning, especially given the number of layers. There were only a handful of designs for the 5x5x5 and none for the others. But there are so many 3x3x3s on the market, with so many different designs, that the standards are far higher for out-of-the-box turning ability (at least among serious cubers). So it's possible that the idea is to bring down the most popular cube a bit and then try to replace it. Hard to say.



Toquinha1977 said:


> How's this for an idea...have Verdes license out the patent


While it would help their economic situation, my past experience tells me that V-Cubes has absolutely no intent to enter into any kind of deal with Chinese cube manufacturers.


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## Olji (Dec 19, 2010)

well, that will just kill the cube, and the pope should'nt kill what I have learned....


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## FatBoyXPC (Dec 19, 2010)

prostx23 said:


> One would think that they would want to go after the LingYun as well, as it's mostly a tweak of the GuHong, I'd think it's strange if they didn't. And if they don't...kinda makes you wonder...





Zarxrax said:


> Well i did a search for lingyun on ebay, and only 1 cube came up. I would think that there would be much more than 1 if ebay hadn't taken any action against it.



So it's still speculation. Does anybody have any knowledge of the LingYun actually being removed from eBay? There is also still one GuHong left on eBay, somehow.


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## SlapShot (Dec 19, 2010)

Zarxrax said:


> Well i did a search for lingyun on ebay, and only 1 cube came up. I would think that there would be much more than 1 if ebay hadn't taken any action against it.



So did I from elsewhere.

Not sure exactly why I was banned, and please don't do it again, but I asked a valid
question. Why now, and not when the Guhong was first released ???
I'm sure we won't get an answer to that question.


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## Dene (Dec 19, 2010)

Fire Cuber said:


> LOL.
> 
> As for Dayan and Maru, I don't think that all peoples says that Dayan which is clearly superior to the maru.


 
So what you don't think you can buy Guhongs anymore? LOL right back at ya

And if you don't think the Dayan is superior then you don't know what a good cube is. If it wasn't for the popping it would be an almost perfect cube. Just look at how much the WR dropped when the Dayan was used. ALMOST 5 SECONDS.


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## cookieyo145 (Dec 19, 2010)

what is wrong with v cube. dayan is awesome
i think they're still on cube 2 you .com im gonna check right now


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## cookieyo145 (Dec 19, 2010)

holy cow theyre still on cube2you, lets buy right now


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## y3k9 (Dec 19, 2010)

cookieyo145 said:


> holy cow theyre still on cube2you, lets buy right now


Yes, they'll be on a lot of sites such as lightake (by off of there because it's cheaper), if I'm not mistaken the whole dispute is because v-cube took it off ebay.


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## cookieyo145 (Dec 19, 2010)

wat about speed cub shop.com???? ill look
nope no luck


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## y3k9 (Dec 19, 2010)

cookieyo145 said:


> wat about speed cub shop.com???? ill look
> nope no luck


It's either they took the cube off ebay and some popular stores, or they took it off all paypal using stores. I am not sure which, and in any case do not rely any arguments off of my data.


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## Whyusosrs? (Dec 19, 2010)

y3k9 said:


> Yes, they'll be on a lot of sites such as lightake (by off of there because it's cheaper), if I'm not mistaken the whole dispute is because v-cube took it off ebay.


 
I guess you don't remember when lightake had to take Marus off it's site because they violated Verde's patent.


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## HavoCentral (Dec 19, 2010)

Dene said:


> So what you don't think you can buy Guhongs anymore? LOL right back at ya
> 
> And if you don't think the Dayan is superior then you don't know what a good cube is. If it wasn't for the popping it would be an almost perfect cube. Just look at how much the WR dropped when the Dayan was used. ALMOST 5 SECONDS.


 
I agree that if the dayan didnt pop it would be perfect, but the maru has its perks as well, at least to me it does. Everyone has their opinion on which cube is better, and no single persons opinion can be right, even if many people agree.



y3k9 said:


> It's either they took the cube off ebay and some popular stores, or they took it off all paypal using stores. I am not sure which, and in any case do not rely any arguments off of my data.


 
Most smaller stores have removed their guhong and lingyun products because ebay and paypal are the same company, and they do not want their paypal account to be terminated.


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## scotzbhoy (Dec 19, 2010)

Is it me or are there virtually no similarities between the V3 design and the GuHong? The corners look a bit similar, though clearly not a direct copy, and the edges are completely different.


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## y3k9 (Dec 19, 2010)

Many people are not signing the petition because of respect. They respect him because he invented good bigger cubes, and I do respect that. But you see with the takedown of guhong he is ruining the community. Yes, the pieces might be similar to that on the patent, but as far as I see v-cube has no intentions to make a v3. The guhong is a revolutionary cube, and it's design is the best the community has seen. If v-cube makes 3x3 then the cubing community would be happy seeing as though his cubes are of amazing quality. But if v-cube has no plans of making 3x3's, what's the point of taking good ones off the market?


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## HavoCentral (Dec 19, 2010)

scotzbhoy said:


> Is it me or are there virtually no similarities between the V3 design and the GuHong? The corners look a bit similar, though clearly not a direct copy, and the edges are completely different.


 
Its just you.

JAY KAY, lol.

There has been no official statement from Verdes Innovations concerning how the Dayan infringes their patent. As of this point, it is purely speculation.

Many think it is the "Conical Structure" and many think it is the corner stalks. From what I have read since this started, those are the two main assumptions at this point. Though, It could turn out to be something entirely different.


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## masterofthebass (Dec 19, 2010)

HavoCentral said:


> Its just you.
> 
> JAY KAY, lol.
> 
> ...


 
The conical structure and corner design are the issues.


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## daniel0731ex (Dec 20, 2010)

I just realized...although the Guhong have no resemblence to the V-cube 3 at all, if you look at the big V-cubes as a reduced 3x3 cube 
(as in, moving the outer layers only), the structure is very similar to the Guhong. Perhaps Verdes though the Guhong was a KO because of that?

PS: If you couldn't understand what I am saying, just look at your V-cube 5 or 7. If you glue all the small edge pieces into one single edge, and all centers into one big center, it becomes almost identical (except for some minor tweaks) to the Guhong if you could somehow make it proportional.


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## HavoCentral (Dec 20, 2010)

masterofthebass said:


> The conical structure and corner design are the issues.


 
Did Verdes Innovations or a spokesperson say that, because I read about those on the forums and have not heard anything official?
And many people have pointed out that everyone is making assumptions, since nothing official has been released.


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## ~Adam~ (Dec 20, 2010)

masterofthebass said:


> The conical structure and corner design are the issues.



You say that as if you know it's fact. Do you know something that we don't? Or am I reading too far into your sentence structure?


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## cmhardw (Dec 20, 2010)

Please everyone be patient until further information is revealed either from V-cubes, or a spokesperson for V-cubes. I can assure you that the matter is being looked into.


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## masterofthebass (Dec 20, 2010)

I am not someone who goes around spreading rumors. That is not beneficial for anyone involved.


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## daniel0731ex (Dec 20, 2010)

I just realized...although the Guhong have no resemblence to the V-cube 3 at all, if you look at the big V-cubes as a reduced 3x3 cube 
(as in, moving the outer layers only), the structure is very similar to the Guhong. Perhaps Verdes though the Guhong was a KO because of that?

PS: If you couldn't understand what I am saying, just look at your V-cube 5 or 7. If you glue all the small edge pieces into one single edge, and all centers into one big center, it becomes almost identical (except for some minor tweaks) to the Guhong if you could somehow make it proportional. 

This is what I meant:


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## uberCuber (Dec 20, 2010)

y3k9 said:


> Many people are not signing the petition because of respect. They respect him because he invented good bigger cubes, and I do respect that. *But you see with the takedown of guhong he is ruining the community.* Yes, the pieces might be similar to that on the patent, but as far as I see v-cube has no intentions to make a v3. The guhong is a revolutionary cube, and it's design is the best the community has seen. If v-cube makes 3x3 then the cubing community would be happy seeing as though his cubes are of amazing quality. But if v-cube has no plans of making 3x3's, what's the point of taking good ones off the market?


 
That's funny that you think that. I could go order a guhong right now if I wanted to.


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## tertius (Dec 20, 2010)

Chris, I sent you a PM on this topic. Can you let me know if you received it? Thanks.


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## Ethan Rosen (Dec 20, 2010)

qqwref said:


> It's nice for us speedcubers that even cubes which might be technically illegal to own and sell can still be allowed in competition. I doubt the GuHong will get to that point, but if it does a little black market in cubing may well develop.


 
There already is a huge black market for cubes; a pretty good amount of puzzles sold on sites like popbuying, lighttake, and a bunch of these other sites are pretty blatantly illegal.


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## prostx23 (Dec 20, 2010)

cmhardw said:


> Please everyone be patient until further information is revealed either from V-cubes, or a spokesperson for V-cubes. I can assure you that the matter is being looked into.



I could be missing something here because I'm not on all of the time and I could have missed some deleted posts... but I fail to see true impatience, or incivility for that matter. Alot of speculation and conjecture, to be sure, as should be *expected* when so little hard information is available. After this is a message board. Gossip is part of the deal. This is akin to water cooler talk as far as I'm concerned. With all due respect, the mods on this board, of the dozen or so message boards I visit (of a variety of subject matter) are the most overbearing and persnickety of all. Chill dudes, let the conversation flow. If it truly gets abusive (threats, foul language etc.) then have at it, otherwise, ease off a bit.


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## EricReese (Dec 20, 2010)

tertius said:


> Chris, I sent you a PM on this topic. Can you let me know if you received it? Thanks.


 
I'm sure he has got it. Unless your suggesting a possible malfunction in software that costs (last I remember) around 100 dollars for each license. vBulletin malfunctioning in only your PM to him seems very unlikely so I fail to see the reason for you to post this question in the thread.


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## ~Adam~ (Dec 20, 2010)

Ethan Rosen said:


> There already is a huge black market for cubes; a pretty good amount of puzzles sold on sites like popbuying, lighttake, and a bunch of these other sites are pretty blatantly illegal.


How many twisty puzzle online stores don't stock any KOs?


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## waffle=ijm (Dec 20, 2010)

2

V cubes
Rubiks


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## prostx23 (Dec 20, 2010)

waffle=ijm said:


> 2
> 
> V cubes
> Rubiks



Exactly... the whole speedcubing community is built around knockoffs. V cubes among them.


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## kastellorizo (Dec 20, 2010)

fatboyxpc said:


> Not as if it is any surprise, but I asked Pantazis in a PM several times to point out the similarities. I also asked him to show the video. All I got was how I seem to not understand what he's saying and that a lawyer would have to explain it to me. I asked several times for the video (as did Stefan) and he still avoided it in a PM. He also mentioned how that this will be decided by a judge if (and yes, he said if) it goes to court. He argued in the PM very much like he did in this thread (as such bringing up points from this thread that I didn't bring up, etc).
> 
> He said he mentioned several times (which he didn't, the same PM where he mentioned this, is the only one) about the "conical" shape of the pieces in the video if you zoom in on something, then zoom out of something else (didn't provide images, or even times in the video to specify which pieces, nor did he even say a corner or edge), then it looks similar to the V-Cube 3 Patent (which he didn't specify to which part of that patent either). I asked for images to better detail it, and he said he couldn't get me any (I asked specifically of the GuHong pieces). If he was talking about the video that izovire gave us, the video mentions the corner stems being similar, not any sort of conical shape, unless I missed something.




Surprise? To me it is not a surprise that you seem to still don't know what is going on. 
Can you read again my previous post to save me and others (and possibly you) from wasting more time?
The "arguing" part was me explaining to you the same thing in *different* ways, and providing you with 
photos, something I *also* was *not* obliged to do for my opinion (see below my explanation 
for my role/job). You were then asking the same question all over again (almost like cut-n-paste style).

I was expressing my opinion (sizes etc). I am not obliged to provide you anything for my opinion. 
Yes, I had a brief chat with Konstantinos, but not enough to explain anything too vital or to give details
and I believe I *told* you that!

I am not looking forward to have another chat with Konstantinos and explaining anything ever again, and I would 
prefer no one to treat me like any "professional" spokesman (or whatever that is you expect from me,
as if other puzzle companies had one!). Firstly, I am an academic, then a puzzle collector, then a 
puzzle designer (for MindStrat Puzzles), then a puzzle solver, and then a spokesman/messenger. It is NOT 
my job to tell anyone anything, but even then, I *thought* I could help and be some sort of link. 
Which of course, was not appreciated and I won't do ever again. My mistake was trying to be too good 
and share things in a restricted manner. But no, you needed to know everything at once, even if I didn't know!!!

Official Spokesman? Maybe yes, but it is NOT my paid job. If some of you like to shoot messengers, it is NOT my problem. 

No one (including you, but except Tyson - to me it was not rocket science!) actually realised what was really going on
and I could not even breath while trying to reply to personal insults. The admins were also busy to delete all those
(which was a good thing, but then others did not seem them to understand my own perspective) yet some people here 
were just fueling more (knowingly?) accusations and personal insults. At some point, it was impossible for me to prove that
I am not an elephant. If there was a confusion or anger or whatever, it was (at best) a TEAM effort. And all that you 
mention above, are IRRELEVANT for the case, unless you like to only have my opinion, which is *unrelated* to the ebay action. 
(or unless you are trying again to cause trouble to me). If you or anyone else does not want to listen to me, then at least
listen to Tyson, who managed to find out what was going on.

At two points, *even* then, I still gave all the benefit of the doubt (that it was a misunderstanding and 
some of the accusers would wake up and realise it) and I sent seasonal wishes. Maybe some of you thought 
I was sarcastic? Well, unlike some other people, I am not. Sarcastic talk is not my style and it will never be.
So in return of my seasonal wishes, I got more sarcasm, more personal attacks, more insults. 

Then, I even spent HOURS to reply to many PMs, NOT because I was obliged, but because I was trying to 
be NICE as the matter was escalating in public. 

Therefore, focus on the actual case and what you are trying to prove, not ME any more. 
(unless you have other motives, and judging from your persistence, despite all being explained, I believe you do)

*My* only mistake was to provide a tiny update and an opinion. Had I realised it would be mixed up 
so badly I wouldn't bother posting in the first place. So can you (and others who still have no clue 
of how this was escalated) stop referring to my name? 

Thank you. 


Pantazis


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## tertius (Dec 20, 2010)

EricReese said:


> I'm sure he has got it. Unless your suggesting a possible malfunction in software that costs (last I remember) around 100 dollars for each license. vBulletin malfunctioning in only your PM to him seems very unlikely so I fail to see the reason for you to post this question in the thread.



I'm not sure if you know what the message is about or if you can check his PM's, which seems very unlikely. So I fail to see the reason for you to post this statement in the thread.


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## HavoCentral (Dec 20, 2010)

waffle=ijm said:


> 2
> 
> V cubes
> Rubiks


 
Mefferts >.<


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## waffle=ijm (Dec 20, 2010)

even mefferts has knockoffs?


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## ~Adam~ (Dec 20, 2010)

waffle=ijm said:


> even mefferts has knockoffs?


Didn't C4Y release the 1st Gigaminx not so long ago?
Does that make this MF8 version a KO?
http://mefferts.com/page.php?lang=en&theme=new_puzzle_release


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## kastellorizo (Dec 20, 2010)

~Phoenix Death~ said:


> Are you done?


 


kastellorizo said:


> Well, unlike some other people, I am not sarcastic. Sarcastic talk is not my style and it will never be.
> So in return of my seasonal wishes, I got more sarcasm, more personal attacks, more insults.



The real question is if *you* are done? I did not attack you personally, but you just did.
Then, you and others ask for explanations, and when you get them, you *still* go on!


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## masterofthebass (Dec 20, 2010)

HavoCentral said:


> Mefferts >.<


 
Mefferts is known to have stocked KO items. They even almost stocked KO 7x7s before people outraged.


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## ~Phoenix Death~ (Dec 20, 2010)

masterofthebass said:


> Mefferts is known to have stocked KO items. They even almost stocked KO 7x7s before people outraged.


 
That would have been a sight to see.


----------



## Antcuber (Dec 20, 2010)

hopefully cubedepot will still stock guhong and lingyuns


----------



## masterofthebass (Dec 20, 2010)

~Phoenix Death~ said:


> That would have been a sight to see.


 






That 7% claim is ********. KV said outright he was never consulted about that.

I saved the web archive. If I can figure out how to extract its elements, I'll upload that if you want.


----------



## HavoCentral (Dec 20, 2010)

cube-o-holic said:


> Didn't C4Y release the 1st Gigaminx not so long ago?
> Does that make this MF8 version a KO?
> http://mefferts.com/page.php?lang=en&theme=new_puzzle_release




Is the the gigaminx even patented.

@masterofthebass - Do you happen to know which brand that is? LanLan, DianSheng, Ghost Hand, YJ, I believe those are all the 7x7 KOs.


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## masterofthebass (Dec 20, 2010)

This was the first YJ before anyone else had made one.


Also, the gigaminx was not patented. Drewseph was actually quite annoyed that C4Y took his design and mass produced it too, but thats a whole other argument.


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## ~Phoenix Death~ (Dec 20, 2010)

masterofthebass said:


> That 7% claim is ********. KV said outright he was never consulted about that.
> 
> I saved the web archive. If I can figure out how to extract its elements, I'll upload that if you want.


 
Do want


----------



## masterofthebass (Dec 20, 2010)

http://cube.danrcohen.com/mefferts/

Thats the webarchive I saved back on 2/23/09


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## Stefan (Dec 20, 2010)

masterofthebass said:


> *That 7% claim is ********.* KV said outright he was never consulted about that.


 
Did Meffert claim the inventors were consulted?


----------



## masterofthebass (Dec 20, 2010)

I guess not, they were still selling a KO without permission from the inventor. I just assumed that securing a royalty agreement would include a consultation.


Anyway, this thread should sort of get back on topic.


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## HavoCentral (Dec 20, 2010)

masterofthebass said:


> Also, the gigaminx was not patented. Drewseph was actually quite annoyed that C4Y took his design and mass produced it too, but thats a whole other argument.


 
Sorta on topic, wasnt the gigaminx and other higher order megaminxs, based on V mechs


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## masterofthebass (Dec 20, 2010)

yes, but as a non NxN cube, I don't think V-Cubes thought their design infringed on their patent.


----------



## Fire Cuber (Dec 20, 2010)

Dene said:


> *So what you don't think you can buy Guhongs anymore?* LOL right back at ya
> 
> And if you don't think the Dayan is superior then you don't know what a good cube is. If it wasn't for the popping it would be an almost perfect cube. Just look at how much the WR dropped when the Dayan was used. ALMOST 5 SECONDS.


 
I get your point. Also I'm referring to the size of dayan actually.


----------



## Tyson (Dec 20, 2010)

kastellorizo said:


> No one (including you, but except Tyson - to me it was not rocket science!) actually realised what was really going on
> and I could not even breath while trying to reply to personal insults. The admins were also busy to delete all those (which was a good thing, but then others did not seem them to understand my own perspective) yet some people here were just fueling more (knowingly?) accusations and personal insults. At some point, it was impossible for me to prove that I am not an elephant. If there was a confusion or anger or whatever, it was (at best) a TEAM effort. And all that you mention above, are IRRELEVANT for the case, unless you like to only have my opinion, which is *unrelated* to the ebay action. (or unless you are trying again to cause trouble to me). If you or anyone else does not want to listen to me, then at least
> listen to Tyson, who managed to find out what was going on.



I am so confused... what in the world did I find out in terms of what's going on?

(I leave for two days... and end up with an inbox with 70 e-mails and however many pages of discussion here.)


----------



## ZamHalen (Dec 20, 2010)

Tyson said:


> I am so confused... what in the world did I find out in terms of what's going on?
> 
> (I leave for two days... and end up with an inbox with 70 e-mails and however many pages of discussion here.)


 
I think everyone thought you should know that the cubing community was going after the major sponsor of several competitions. And there is also the fact that it has angered a large percentage of the cubing community which you helped to create and it might be interesting for you.


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## Tyson (Dec 20, 2010)

Is that it? I thought I knew something deeper and more enlightening. Yes, I am aware that the entire cubing community is up in flames over this, and people are very angry. I, like everyone here, have my own opinions regarding the matter.

I will say that without a lot of money, patent infringement claims are pretty much impossible to fight. The going rate is about $425 an hour, as per a friend of mine who works in patent law in San Diego. Of course, these types of things, because of their legal complexities, will easily run you a bill of $10k. Probably more... to be honest. If you aren't making boat loads of cash, and I think boat loads of cash means $100k (USD... oh, poor poor USD...), there's no way you could possibly afford the legal team to fight these claims.

In other words, I probably could have formed an LLC or some other type of company, (total cost, $249 for the registered agent, > $100 for the filing fees), filed a patent (about $500 if done well the first time, 2 years of time before it gets approved if I'm really good in the United States), submitted the forms to file such infringement reports to PayPal (this would take about 15 minutes. 18 if you have a slow internet connection) and prevent every major cube seller in China from utilizing PayPal, which is pretty much the life blood of their financial transactions.

What am I saying here? Fighting European and American law when you're a guy in Asia who doesn't even speak English sucks.


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## y3k9 (Dec 20, 2010)

Tyson said:


> [long quote]


The cubing community is rather small, and if the whole of it boycotts v-cube, I'm sure it'll have more if not the same effect as all that legal stuff.


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## Tyson (Dec 20, 2010)

y3k9 said:


> The cubing community is rather small, and if the whole of it boycotts v-cube, I'm sure it'll have more if not the same effect as all that legal stuff.


 
Yes, I agree with you. But at the same time, wouldn't it be nice to do things the right way? Vigilante justice is effective, and even comical when done on the internet. If there was a legal avenue to pursue, I would say it would be preferable to vigilante justice.


----------



## y3k9 (Dec 20, 2010)

Tyson said:


> Yes, I agree with you. But at the same time, wouldn't it be nice to do things the right way? Vigilante justice is effective, and even comical when done on the internet. If there was a legal avenue to pursue, I would say it would be preferable to vigilante justice.


I do not understand what you are saying.


----------



## Sin-H (Dec 20, 2010)

y3k9 said:


> I do not understand what you are saying.


He says we shouldn't prematurely boycott v-cubes, it would be better if we tried to carify this issue "on the legal avenue".


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## y3k9 (Dec 20, 2010)

Sin-H said:


> He says we shouldn't prematurely boycott v-cubes, it would be better if we tried to carify this issue "on the legal avenue".


Then he clearly doesn't understand what I said. The community of cubers in this small world is fairly small. It is still there though, and v-cube is making money off of them (not saying that as if it's a bad thing, it's just business), but v-cube is now taking down cubes that they claim infringe their patents. Infringing or not these cubes are valuable to the community. By boycotting v-cube's products they'll understand that they are bringing nothing to the community but rather taking from it. Through legal action they will not get the message.


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## Rpotts (Dec 20, 2010)

y3k9 said:


> Then he clearly doesn't understand what I said. The community of cubers in this small world is fairly small. It is still there though, and v-cube is making money off of them (not saying that as if it's a bad thing, it's just business), but v-cube is now taking down cubes that they claim infringe their patents. Infringing or not these cubes are valuable to the community. *By boycotting v-cube's products they'll understand that they are bringing nothing to the community but rather taking from it. Through legal action they will not get the message.*


 
Evidence?


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## y3k9 (Dec 20, 2010)

Rpotts said:


> Evidence?


For what part?


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## Rpotts (Dec 20, 2010)

take a wild guess. It's not like bolded a particular part of your quote for specificity.


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## y3k9 (Dec 20, 2010)

Rpotts said:


> take a wild guess. It's not like bolded a particular part of your quote for specificity.


You bolded like 2 sentences, of which each consist of a few parts. I ask again, what part?


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## Rpotts (Dec 20, 2010)

._.

what evidence do you have that "By boycotting v-cube's products they'll understand that they are bringing nothing to the community but rather taking from it."?

also, what evidence do you have that, "Through legal action they will not get the message."?


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## y3k9 (Dec 20, 2010)

Rpotts said:


> ._.
> 
> what evidence do you have that "By boycotting v-cube's products they'll understand that they are bringing nothing to the community but rather taking from it."?
> 
> also, what evidence do you have that, "Through legal action they will not get the message."?


First part: Well are they really? V-cube hasn't released any new cubes lately, and has taken them off the market. The main reason we are boycotting v-cube is because of that, and I can ensure the message will travel.
Part 2: If you get sued, are you really gunna stop and say "Oh, I really am being stupid." or are you gunna be all like "Oh noes. I'm getting sued, these idiots." and be all defensive?


----------



## Rpotts (Dec 20, 2010)

That's exactly what I thought. It's clear that you have no idea what you are talking about.


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## Ethan Rosen (Dec 20, 2010)

y3k9 said:


> First part: Well are they really? V-cube hasn't released any new cubes lately, and has taken them off the market. The main reason we are boycotting v-cube is because of that, and I can ensure the message will travel.



You plan on boycotting V-Cubes to try to send them a message to invest more money in releasing a new product? That seems horrible counter productive to me.


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## Vincents (Dec 20, 2010)

Not that I'm going to be defending V-cubes's actions here, but how do you know that they aren't helping the market? <hypothetical>What if, for example, they know that if the Guhong's saturate the market, people will not buy a V-3 which is marginally better, so they don't release it; vs removing the Guhong's from the market, then releasing a V-3 which is actually slightly better, and overall improves the state of speedcubing? And don't tell me that if it's better, EVERYONE will buy it. Not everyone will. Not everyone has the disposable income to buy anything and everything they've ever had an urge to have. They must know that the market is big enough for them to justify the cost of retooling a new production line of cubes. </hypothetical situation>


----------



## Vincents (Dec 20, 2010)

Also, the reaction of the speedcubing community really is over the top. V-cubes has no interest in "bettering the speedcubing community" unless it directly impacts their bottom line. They are a business, not a charity. Boycotting them does not improve the community, it only drives them out of business. Competition leads to innovation in a free market system.


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## qqwref (Dec 20, 2010)

But you can't really have competition if one company tries to get rid of any vaguely similar designs.

I think boycotting is a pretty silly move; a more direct approach will do better. I can't really see it positively affecting the community, unless we'd normally be buying a huge amount of V-Cubes around now (so the boycott would be a big deal). Thing is, the buying of V-Cubes has generally slowed down a lot in the community; people mostly buy them to sell/mod, if they don't have a good 5x5/6x6/7x7 yet, or if they do SO much cubing that their cubes wear out. Besides, I'm sure half of the people in this "boycott" will relent once they find out the reason for all this, if there is a good one.


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## Ranzha (Dec 20, 2010)

Oljibe said:


> well, that will just kill the cube, and the pope should'nt kill what I have learned....


 
Sorry for replying to old quote, but:

Reminds me of a link in my signature.


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## Inf3rn0 (Dec 20, 2010)

Vincents said:


> Not that I'm going to be defending V-cubes's actions here, but how do you know that they aren't helping the market? <hypothetical>What if, for example, they know that if the Guhong's saturate the market, people will not buy a V-3 which is marginally better, so they don't release it; vs removing the Guhong's from the market, then releasing a V-3 which is actually slightly better, and overall improves the state of speedcubing? And don't tell me that if it's better, EVERYONE will buy it. Not everyone will. Not everyone has the disposable income to buy anything and everything they've ever had an urge to have. They must know that the market is big enough for them to justify the cost of retooling a new production line of cubes. </hypothetical situation>


 Of course everyone wont buy it, but if it really is a better cube to the average cuber heaps of people will buy it. Even if Guhongs saturate the market (Perhaps they already have?) a new cube that is better will always prevail and be purchased by many.


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## kastellorizo (Dec 20, 2010)

Tyson said:


> I am so confused... what in the world did I find out in terms of what's going on?


 
You were the first to question why I was still in that discussion, 
and you had some genuine reasoning. All the others wanted me 
to stay and explain some action which was unrelated to me:

http://www.speedsolving.com/forum/s...t-Infringement&p=502116&viewfull=1#post502116

It has been too confusing and out of control for many people.


Pantazis


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## FatBoyXPC (Dec 20, 2010)

Pantazis: You only mentioned once of these conical violations, and didn't even mention anything about the corners. You still never sent me the video link, nor did you post it on here (as per Stefan's request). You didn't provide me any pictures. Please stop making blatant lies, as I'm willing to show the PM's to the forum if you so choose. If you don't remember, in your first PM you mentioned how you didn't want me to display any bit of the PMs to the rest of the board, but if you're going to lie about it, I will.


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## PhillipEspinoza (Dec 20, 2010)

Hey I dunno if this is relevant but I found this on a Spanish cubing forum:



Mefferts said:


> I Already Mentioned Previously the Chinese juristic system has no provision for foreigners to sue small companies or identities, this Can Be Done by the China Patent holder legal if They Have strong internal connection Government Which Mr. Chan's company has. The Green V cube Patent (CHINA, 200480013109.3) Briefly Explains the theory just the Mechanism That Can Make 2x2 up to 11 x 11 cubes weitere Without Any diagrams or detail. A senior China Patent Office Official Told That Mr. Chan Patent application the V cube is Not Recognized as a patent in China as it Does Not Give Sufficient details, Henco They Accepted Mr. Chan's 777 cube application. And Mr. Chan's company is now the legal owner of the China Patent for the full V 2,2,2 to 11,11,11 cube cubes series in China and is the only one That has the legal right to sue if Other local factories They historical infringing patents. See the China Patent Office website below.



I think it was in relation to the 7x7 KO. 

Also, if anyone is interested in the US V-Cube Patent specifics:



Spoiler






> This is an invention that concerns the construction of three-dimensional logic toys, which have the shape of a normal solid, substantially cubic in shape, and N number of layers in each direction of the three-dimensional rectangular Cartesian coordinate system, said layers consisting of smaller separate pieces. Their sides that form part of the solid's external surface are substantially cubic. The said pieces can rotate in layers around the three-dimensional axes of the coordinates; their visible rectangular surfaces can be colored or they can bare shapes, letters or numbers. *The construction is based on* the configuration of the internal surfaces of the separate pieces using planar, *spherical and mainly right conical surfaces*, coaxial to the semi-axis of the coordinates, the number of which is .kappa. per semi-axis. The advantage of this construction is that by the use of these .kappa. conical surfaces per semi-axis, two solids arise each time; the first has an even (N=2.kappa.) number of layers per direction visible to the user, whereas the second has the next odd (N=2.kappa.+1) number of visible layers per direction. As a result, by using a unified method and way of construction, for the values of .kappa. from 1 to 5, we can produce in total eleven logic toys whose shape is a normal geometric solid, substantially cubic in shape. These solids are the Cubic Logic Toys No N, where N can take values from N=2 to N=11. The invention became possible after we have solved the problem of connecting the corner piece with the interior of the cube, so that it can be self-contained, can rotate unobstructed around the axes of the three-dimensional rectangular Cartesian coordinate system and, at the same time, can be protected from being dismantled. This invention is unified and its advantage is that, with a new different internal configuration, we can construct--apart from the already known cubes 2.times.2.times.2, 3.times.3.times.3, 4.times.4.times.4, 5.times.5.times.5 which have already been constructed in many different ways and by different people--the next cubes from N=6 up to N=11. Finally, the most important advantage is that it eliminates the operational disadvantages that the already existing cubes have, except for the Rubik cube, i.e. 3.times.3.times.3.


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## kastellorizo (Dec 20, 2010)

fatboyxpc said:


> Pantazis: You only mentioned once of these conical violations, and didn't even mention anything about the corners. You still never sent me the video link, nor did you post it on here (as per Stefan's request). You didn't provide me any pictures. Please stop making blatant lies, as I'm willing to show the PM's to the forum if you so choose. If you don't remember, in your first PM you mentioned how you didn't want me to display any bit of the PMs to the rest of the board, but if you're going to lie about it, I will.


 
There is only one video at the beginning of this thread, and there is
a comparison of the pieces for which I am refering my opinion. If you 
still cannot realise this, do not blame me. Blame yourself.

And pictures? It is amazing you still asking them after all this ordeal. 

Moreover, I am not the one who is lying here, you are the one, as you do not
understand anything from everything I had explained at least thrice (why?). 
But I will say it again (fourth time):

1.The reason I did not want to say anything in public was because no one
(including you) could not understand I had nothing to do with the action.
Public frustration on the (unrelated to me) action was leaning towards me 
because of that misunderstanding. Frustration is a bad guide for people. 
At the same time, it is understandable that people were angry because some 
of the best speedsolving cubes (KO or not, this is to be proved) were halted.

2. I knew very little of the case, and the danger of trying to share anything
(even little - especially in public with some lingering anger) seemed to be a bad idea. 
As I said, *my* mistake was to try to share. I won't do this ever again. 

3. Based on the video posted in the beginning of this thread there was a 
comparison between two pieces for which I gave my own opinion. Look at 
those pieces and look at my OPINION, and then your mind may finally be able 
to combine the thought, realise what is going on, and leave me in peace. 

If you can still do no grasp what I said, I really give up. 

Finally, threatening me(?) LOL to show my PM in public, will neither harm me, 
nor add anything new to the case (if you cannot comprehend, do not blame me).
It will just prove (once again) that *your* ethics and respect are non-existent 
and people should never trust you. 

As I said, read the above. You have been in denial for way to long compared to others.

And even if you *still* don't get it, I am CLEARLY telling you that I have *nothing* more 
to add, especially to you. So your attacks to me won't have any extra results other than 
add more rubbish to this thread and prolong an already dead case (about my *opinion*). 


Pantazis


----------



## Sin-H (Dec 20, 2010)

qqwref said:


> Besides, I'm sure half of the people in this "boycott" will relent once they find out the reason for all this, if there is a good one.


Probably true (including me ) I know it's premature and not the best option, but a lot of people obviously think it might help.


----------



## da25centz (Dec 20, 2010)

Sin-H said:


> Probably true (including me ) I know it's premature and not the best option, but a lot of people obviously think it might help.


 
Not so much that it will help, as people are just mad that they can't buy their GuHongs, and there really isn't anything else they can do about it other than boycott


----------



## Kirjava (Dec 20, 2010)

kastellorizo said:


> And even if you *still* don't get it, I am CLEARLY telling you that I have *nothing* more to add, especially to you.


----------



## kastellorizo (Dec 20, 2010)

Kirjava said:


>


 
Same applies to you. Seriously though, at least I am trying to explain some things
that someone is asking me.

What is the purpose of your post? No one is asking you anything, yet you keep attacking me,
hoping you can achieve something else besides being immature.


----------



## Kirjava (Dec 20, 2010)

kastellorizo said:


> Same applies to you.



No it doesn't, I never claimed I would stop posting.



kastellorizo said:


> Seriously though, at least I am trying to explain some things.



Not to me. I asked you some valid questions.



kastellorizo said:


> What is the purpose of your post? Attacking me won't achieve much except making you look immature.


 
I'm pointing out how immature *you* are being. I think I've passed the point now on this forum where I'd have to worry about people thinking I am immature. XD


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## kastellorizo (Dec 20, 2010)

Kirjava said:


> No it doesn't, I never claimed I would stop posting.
> Not to me. I asked you some valid questions.
> I'm pointing out how immature *you* are being. I think I've passed the point now on this forum where I'd have to worry about people thinking I am immature. XD



This is your *opinion* against *facts*.

Am I being asked questions? YES.
Will I stop answering if people stop asking me? YES.
Are you being asked anything? NO
Are you being sarcastic? YES
Is there any contribution to clearing up things from your post? NO
Based on the above, can you see the difference from being mature and immature? NO

I rest my case.


----------



## Kirjava (Dec 20, 2010)

kastellorizo said:


> This is *your* opinion against facts.



What facts?



kastellorizo said:


> Am I being asked questions? YES.
> Will I stop answering if people stop asking me? YES.
> Are you being asked anything? NO
> Are you being sarcastic? YES
> ...



This is all very cute and everything, but I'm perfectly free to ask my own questions and request that you answer them.

Also where was I sarcastic lol?

EDIT; 

Just a reminder - here's the post I want you to reply to if you actually want to discuss the issue with me instead of talking about drama. 

Unless, you want to carry on ignoring me when I actually want to discuss something constructive.


----------



## kastellorizo (Dec 20, 2010)

Kirjava said:


> What facts?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
You see? You do not even realise you are posting sarcastic comments or photos
(the photo you posted was the epitome of sarcasm)


----------



## Kirjava (Dec 20, 2010)

kastellorizo said:


> sarcastic comments


 
I don't think that word means what you think it means.


----------



## kastellorizo (Dec 20, 2010)

Kirjava said:


> I don't think that word means what you think it means.


 
So what was the reason you posted it, to amuse me? 
I am sorry but the existence of sarcasm mainly depends on how the recipient feels, not the sender.


----------



## Kirjava (Dec 20, 2010)

kastellorizo said:


> (the photo you posted was the epitome of sarcasm)



You claimed that you would stop posting then you carried on posting anyway.

I don't see how it's possible for a statement that is true to be sarcastic.

And again,



Kirjava said:


> Just a reminder - here's the post I want you to reply to if you actually want to discuss the issue with me instead of talking about drama.
> 
> Unless, you want to carry on ignoring me when I actually want to discuss something constructive.


----------



## Kirjava (Dec 20, 2010)

kastellorizo said:


> I am sorry but the existence of sarcasm mainly depends on how the recipient feels, not the sender.


 
Ahahaha are you serious? I'm pretty sure it's the other way around. XD


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## Wickex (Dec 20, 2010)

kastellorizo said:


> So what was the reason you posted it, to amuse me?
> I am sorry but the existence of sarcasm mainly depends on how the recipient feels, not the sender.


 
No offense bro, but I don't think you know what sarcasm means.
A statement like "It's nice weather today" when it's raining is an example of sarcasm. You saying you're going to stop posting and him replying with an image telling you that you're still posting is not sarcasm, it's more like a fact. If it were to be sarcastic it would've been something like "Finally, he stopped posting".

Also, the "existence of sarcasm" mainly depends on how the sender feels, not the recipient. The sender is making the sarcastic statement, not the recipient.

Again, I'm just trying to teach you something, not trying to be offensive here.


----------



## FatBoyXPC (Dec 20, 2010)

kastellorizo said:


> Moreover, I am not the one who is lying here [...] And pictures? It is amazing you still asking them after all this ordeal.





kastellorizo said:


> The "arguing" part was me explaining to you the same thing in *different* ways, and providing you with
> photos, something I *also* was *not* obliged to do for my opinion (see below my explanation
> for my role/job).



Could you make up your mind if you have sent me pictures or not? 




kastellorizo said:


> There is only one video at the beginning of this thread, and there is a comparison of the pieces for which I am refering my opinion. If you
> still cannot realise this, do not blame me. Blame yourself.



Can you show me where you have previously mentioned (where to find) this specific video? Especially in our PMs? Every other time you mentioned this video, you never said it was the one posted in the beginning of this thread (which wasn't in the original post, by the way, it was edited in later), you just kept referring to "the video." I might also add, he mentions how the corner stalks are the same, not a conical structure. In our PMs, you mentioned a conical structure. So I ask again: Where do you see a conical structure with the GuHong? Now please notice, I didn't say "Where does Verdes Innovations see a patent infringement?" I asked you specifically what you see similar. I made that clear in my PM, but you seem to be getting confused I am asking about how it is infringing on the patent. I'm asking you for your opinion (on what you see that is similar), which I have not yet received (although you keep mentioning how you have given me your opinion, I can agree you have said you see a similarity, but not what specifically).


----------



## Stefan (Dec 20, 2010)

kastellorizo said:


> There is only one video at the beginning of this thread



Again:



Stefan said:


> I've only seen this one which doesn't contain a single insult or attempt to ridicule Verdes, and *does* point out a similarity (to V-5 corners, though I don't know why one would use those instead of V-3 corners). *So that's definitely not the video you're talking about.*



Since you're now saying that that's the video you meant, I recommend you apologize to the guys for the lies you told about them.



kastellorizo said:


> no one (including you) could not understand I had nothing to do with the action.



Nah, that was clear (assuming you didn't really mean that no-not double negative there).



kastellorizo said:


> Public frustration on the (unrelated to me) action was leaning towards me
> because of that misunderstanding.



Can't speak for everyone, but for me, *you* were the *main* nuisance. Has to do with you coming here and telling lies from the get-go.


----------



## peedu (Dec 20, 2010)

Hey, let's give the guy a break.

He lacks english skills, he can't make heads or tails if he is a spokesman of V-cubes or not, he can't decide if he knows something about it or does not.

V-cubes reputation went down a lot in my eyes and I'm not even sure who was behind all that. Now I will just put the V-cubes reputation back up there where it was, before Kastellorizo started to drag it down. At least until more information will be available.


Peedu


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## Whyusosrs? (Dec 20, 2010)

Wickex said:


> A statement like "It's nice weather today" when it's raining is an example of sarcasm.


 
But I like rainy weather...

Thom, I wonder if kastellorizo knows who aki is?

Has an official v-cubes rep said anything anywhere about this whole ordeal yet?


----------



## TimMc (Dec 20, 2010)

*Have you considered using an alternative to eBay and PayPal?*

Hi Merchants,

There have been so many personal attacks and insults thrown about in this thread. We saw PayPal, MasterCard, and VISA attacked in the past couple of weeks for suspending WikiLeaks' account. Now they're forcing merchants to stop selling products that allegedly infringe upon patents without a court order.

You can complain about whether it's righteous or not for Verdes Innovations S.A. to get eBay to remove an item that allegedly infringes upon their patent without any evidence but it's just not going to change the fact that there's nothing to prevent others from abusing eBay's system by submitting more patent infringement notices on behalf of Verdes Innovations S.A. just to screw with other sellers!

To fight Verdes you now have to fight eBay and PayPal because *you put them between yourself and the customer*. So why not use an alternative method of payment where transactions are subject to the law and *not* hearsay? :fp

Tim.

_P.S. I'm a fan of Dayan and Verdes. I just think it's stupid to complain about people using a system to screw you over when it's the system that should be fixed or avoided._


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## kastellorizo (Dec 20, 2010)

Stefan said:


> Since you're now saying that that's the video you meant, I recommend you apologize to the guys for the lies you told about them..


 
I recommend for *you* to apologise for fueling the arguments especially when I was called insults.
I regard you as one of them since I am sure you were enjoying this

As for speaking for "anyone here", please. There are many who had different view.
Just like you don't care about my opinion, I don't care about yours. 

And I will REPEAT again. The video *DID* have insults but were REMOVED.
(and I have mentioned this TWICE!)

So in the end, the whole thing has become an arithmetic issue (twice, fifth etc)


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## kastellorizo (Dec 20, 2010)

peedu said:


> Hey, let's give the guy a break.
> 
> He lacks english skills, he can't make heads or tails if he is a spokesman of V-cubes or not, he can't decide if he knows something about it or does not.
> 
> ...




Or others lack communication skill. Just as a note, most of the participants 
(not you) had terrible grammar and syntax errors. But hey, who am to speak?


----------



## kastellorizo (Dec 20, 2010)

fatboyxpc said:


> Could you make up your mind if you have sent me pictures or not?


 
LOL you just don't get it, do you? 

Fifth time:
Even if I knew (I don't) more details I wouldn't bother any more. 

So could you make up *your* mind why you are expecting me to answer anything?


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## Kirjava (Dec 20, 2010)

Hiiiiiiiii. You stopped talking to me when you realised that you were wrong 

You could reply to this to save face though;



Kirjava said:


> Just a reminder - here's the post I want you to reply to if you actually want to discuss the issue with me instead of talking about drama.
> 
> Unless, you want to carry on ignoring me when I actually want to discuss something constructive.


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## kastellorizo (Dec 20, 2010)

Kirjava said:


> Ahahaha are you serious? I'm pretty sure it's the other way around. XD


 
So in your opinion, if the recipient does not feel amused is not sarcasm? LOL

In the end of the day, your photo was insulting, and your intention was to insult. And this is the whole point. 
If your intention was otherwise, you would have tried to help calm things down. Instead, you wanted to escalate things again.

Oh wait, now I understand, you were upset because you were being ignored and wanted attention! (you stated that, not me)

Sixth time: Initially I wanted to share things, and after the insults I don't. So stalking me won't add any new knowledge to this public chat.


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## Kirjava (Dec 20, 2010)

kastellorizo said:


> So in your opinion, if the recipient does not feel amused is not sarcasm? LOL



No. Looks like you don't understand what I said.



kastellorizo said:


> In the end of the day, your photo was insulting, and your intention was to insult. And this is the whole point.
> If your intention was otherwise, you would have tried to help things calm down. Instead, you wanted to escalate things again.



No, I want your attention. You will only reply to things that are drama related. This is trolling. Why do you refuse to discuss VCubes and instead wish to just revel in annoying people?



kastellorizo said:


> Oh wait, now I understand, you were upset because you were being ignored and wanted attention!


 
I'm not upset at all, I'm simply showing everyone else how much of a dick you're being.


If you don't want to talk about VCubes, you should stop posting.


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## CubesOfTheWorld (Dec 20, 2010)

Pantazis, if I know that you are doing something about the situation, I will calm down. Thank you.


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## gibbleking (Dec 20, 2010)

this thread is going nowhere..ive just read all 42 pages aand its just about trolling people to get a reaction...the original topic was about 1 firm exercising their legal right to prevent others from copying what they legaly own(not legaly oblidged to produce tho)...right or wrong morally isnt relevant in a legal issue..my opinion is that ive waited for verdes to create the bigger order cubes for ages too and i keep looking at the 11x1 and wandering if i should get it....this is what should concern the sellers...the fact that previousely loyal customers are going elsewhere for their hobbies......mefferts has the same prob with the jade club saga...peoplewaiting nearly 8 months for things promised and never delivered ....its commen bussiness practise not to fob the customer with false promises and then not deliver.....its no wander they go to ko firms......


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## kastellorizo (Dec 20, 2010)

Kirjava said:


> No. Looks like you don't understand what I said.



LOL It seems you are the one doing that. 

Seventh time: Initially I wanted to share things, and after the insults I don't. So stalking me won't add any new knowledge to this public chat.


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## kastellorizo (Dec 20, 2010)

CubesOfTheWorld said:


> Pantazis, if I know that you are doing something about the situation, I will calm down. Thank you.


 
You are 100% right. Sorry to all the rest of the genuine members.


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## Kirjava (Dec 20, 2010)

kastellorizo said:


> LOL It seems you are the one doing that.


 
You said "the existence of sarcasm mainly depends on how the recipient feels, not the sender". 

This is hilariously wrong. Everyone else knows this. You're making yourself look more and more foolish.

And if you don't want to talk about VCubes, you should stop posting. Otherwise you might end up getting banned for trolling.


----------



## flan (Dec 20, 2010)




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## kastellorizo (Dec 20, 2010)

Kirjava said:


> You said "the existence of sarcasm mainly depends on how the recipient feels, not the sender".
> 
> This is hilariously wrong. Everyone else knows this. You're making yourself look more and more foolish.
> 
> And if you don't want to talk about VCubes, you should stop posting. Otherwise you might end up getting banned for trolling.


 

I believe you are the one who is:

(1) insulting (the feelings are mutual for the "foolish" comment)
(2) asking for attention (from me), i.e. trolling. 

So please. I never asked anything from you, yet you keep stalking me.


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## Olji (Dec 20, 2010)

flan said:


>


 
i lol'd


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## Kirjava (Dec 20, 2010)

kastellorizo said:


> (1) insulting (the feelings are mutual for the "foolish" comment)



I am. You're a dick.



kastellorizo said:


> (2) asking for attention (from me), i.e. trolling.



I am. You're talking about this **** instead of about VCubes. You shouldn't be doing that.



kastellorizo said:


> you keep stalking me.


 
I don't think that word means what you think it means.


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## kastellorizo (Dec 20, 2010)

Kirjava said:


> I am.


 
Finally! The truth is out. That proves many many things. 

Thank you.


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## Hyprul 9-ty2 (Dec 20, 2010)

kastellorizo said:


> Finally! The truth is out. That proves many many things.
> 
> Thank you.


It proves that Kirjava is insulting you. What else does that prove?


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## Kirjava (Dec 20, 2010)

kastellorizo said:


> Finally! The truth is out.


 
It's no secret that I've been making fun of you for quite some time now. XD

Ready to talk about something serious yet, or can I carry on dragging your name through the mud?


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## kastellorizo (Dec 20, 2010)

Kirjava said:


> It's no secret that I've been making fun of you for quite some time now. XD
> 
> Ready to talk about something serious yet, or can I carry on dragging your name through the mud?



For serious talk, let's say we should just wait of what happens in this case.
There is a lot of activity in the background, and many people are trying to resolve complicated details. 

Now I need to have a shower and get all this mud off me.,.


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## Kirjava (Dec 20, 2010)

kastellorizo said:


> For serious talk, let's say we should just wait of what happens in this case.


 
There's no need to. The information I posted can be contemplated without knowing the legal status of this case. We can discuss it now.


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## kastellorizo (Dec 20, 2010)

Kirjava said:


> There's no need to. The information I posted can be contemplated without knowing the legal status of this case. We can discuss it now.


 
*faints*


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## Kirjava (Dec 20, 2010)

What an extremely mature response.


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## Stefan (Dec 20, 2010)

kastellorizo said:


> I recommend for *you* to apologise for fueling the arguments especially when I was called insults.



Don't see where I fueled it. Just holding you accountable for claims you make.



kastellorizo said:


> I regard you as one of them since I am sure you were enjoying this



Yeah, clearly I attacked some of them because I enjoyed them.



kastellorizo said:


> As for speaking for "anyone here", please. There are many who had different view.



What part of _"Can't speak for everyone, but for me"_ don't you understand?



kastellorizo said:


> And I will REPEAT again. The video *DID* have insults but were REMOVED.



Lol, you have no idea how Youtube works. You can't edit a video there.



kastellorizo said:


> (and I have mentioned this TWICE!)



I don't think so.


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## TimMc (Dec 20, 2010)

*Well here's something new...*

*Solution:* Don't use eBay or PayPal!

*Why?*
Because they don't need a court order to prevent you from selling products or to freeze your funds for an undetermined period of time.

*How?*
If you actually care about providing your customers with a service instead of being cube-blocked by PayPal then just ask. :tu

As a merchant it's easy to think of eBay and PayPal as the good guys who facilitate money going from your customers hands to your pocket but they'll always cover themselves first. They've correctly assumed that most merchants are unwilling to legally fight one of their patent infringement notices, and this keeps patent owners happy from pursuing them for damages for the most part. 

I'll just assume that this will go unnoticed, that people will continue to troll each other, and that nothing will be done too prevent eBay and PayPal from allowing unsubstantiated claims from screwing with your business. :fp

Happy cubing,
Tim.


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## Ethan Rosen (Dec 20, 2010)

The problem, TimMc, is that ebay is just too big and too lucrative to avoid missing over something like this. Paypal is also extremely easy for buyers to use, and most potential buyers will already have paypal accounts, and will be favorable toward a business that accepts paypal. the biggest alternative I can think of to paypal is Google Checkout, and that isn't even available in most countries.


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## Stefan (Dec 20, 2010)

An interesting explanation about ebay's handling of the issue:
http://reviews.ebay.com/VeRO-for-Dummies-Copyright-Rules-on-Ebay_W0QQugidZ10000000001769094


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## EricReese (Dec 20, 2010)

kastellorizo said:


> Finally! The truth is out. That proves many many things.
> 
> Thank you.


 
What does that even prove?

Can you answer kirjavas question(s)? It's kind of getting annoying to see you repeatedly ignoring him.


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## qqwref (Dec 20, 2010)

kastellorizo: if you want people to seriously consider your posts, I suggest you:
- look up the definition of "sarcastic" (it isn't the same as "insulting")
- stop saying that you were insulted (we get it already, and we don't care since everyone's been personally insulted at this point) and just respond to actual posts
- not suggest that everyone in the community has a problem just because you saw it in the actions / post quality of some deleted posts (you see, unlike twistypuzzles, speedsolving is completely public - literally anyone can quickly get an account and post here)

PS: Don't bother trying to make Kirjava look insulting/immature/trolling/mean. We know he is; in fact that (combined with other things he does) is one of the reasons he's fun to have around on the forum. I'm getting kinda bored of reading so many straight ad hominem attacks or insults, and it would really be more interesting if you stuck to actual discussion.


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## cmhardw (Dec 20, 2010)

I can wield this ban hammer all day folks. Be advised.


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## einstein00 (Dec 20, 2010)

I'm sorry if this is a noobish question, but how can V-Cube possibly accuse a 3x3x3 cube of copying the V-Cube design, if the V-Cube 3x3x3 doesn't even exist (yet)?


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## kastellorizo (Dec 20, 2010)

Stefan said:


> Lol, you have no idea how Youtube works. You can't edit a video there.


 
Comments are part of a YouTube video, no need to be too pedantic. The insults I was referring were in the 
(removed) comments, not the authors of the video.


And at least now, I have expressed (in my previous posts) my side of the story, 
and inside all the mess, some people can see my points and make a conclusion themselves. 

I will now focus on eating duck rice and drinking coconut juice.
Merry Christmas from Singapore, and I mean it for everyone here. 


Pantazis


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## joey (Dec 20, 2010)

kastellorizo said:


> Comments are part of a YouTube video, no need to be too pedantic. The insults I was referring were in the
> (removed) comments, not the authors of the video.



You really should have made that more clear, that that is what you meant.
Also, 99% of youtube comments are stupid.


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## qqwref (Dec 20, 2010)

kastellorizo said:


> Comments are part of a YouTube video, no need to be too pedantic. The insults I was referring were in the
> (removed) comments, not the authors of the video.


Are you serious? Youtube comments are completely anonymous and are not part of a video in any way. Furthermore, they are in no way reflective of the makers of the video - in fact, if they were removed, it means they go AGAINST the opinions of the people who made the video! It is not only in bad faith, but completely illogical, for you to have criticized the video because of some of the comments there. That's like criticizing V-Cubes because of the bad spelling on the boycott petition.

I'm amused that you keep talking about removed things. You keep complaining about comments that insulted you, but they are always gone by the time anyone asks which ones. I'm sure there's some truth in what you're saying, but you need to realize that random people can literally say anything. If you don't have a hard enough skin to be able to ignore anonymous comments, the internet might not be the best place for you.


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## Stefan (Dec 20, 2010)

kastellorizo said:


> *Comments are part of a YouTube video*, no need to be too pedantic. The insults I was referring were in the
> (removed) comments, not the authors of the video.



I disagree about that, but ok...

Now you just need to explain how they added showing the corner similarity. Into the actual video. I mean, they were _"falsely claiming there is *no* resemblance to the patent"_, right?


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## izovire (Dec 20, 2010)

kastellorizo:

I wish I could quote what you had said shortly after this thread began. About "the 2 in the video insulting Verdes multiple times" 

And now you're commenting on my anonymous 13-17 year old subscribers that know no better. 

I'm sorry to have upset you in this way. Instead of sorting out all the insults from youtube and speedsolving, let's work on the actual patent infringement issue. You're a business owner like myself right? Please be patient on this issue, thanks!


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## PhillipEspinoza (Dec 20, 2010)

Why was this thread opened up again? Should we rename it to "The Kastellorizo Thread" because that seems to be the main topic now.

On-topic, I do find what Tim and Stefan say about the flaw in Ebay and Paypal etc patent infringement systems important and am surprised (not really) that it's being ignored by others on here. I think Ebay for having a stupid VeRo system is about as much at fault as (if not more than?) V-Cube is with this whole fiasco. Sure, V-Cube is wrong in even taking advantage of such a flawed system, but we also gotta blame Ebay for having that flawed system in the first place. Ya, this reminds me much of the WikiLeaks issue. Could it be that we're shooting the messenger? Regardless of V-Cubes' intentions with filing a patent infringement complaint with Ebay, the point is Ebay should have in set some sort of protection for its sellers from this kind of abuse (yes I say it's abuse because I stick behind my original opinion that his claim is unfounded and motivated by the wrong reasons). 

Also kinda off-topic, looking at that "VeRO for Dummies" link that Stefan posted: "Through VeRo, buyers can be more secure about their purchases (imagine you just paid $500 on a designer purse just to find it was a fake!)"

I guess it really is VeRO for Dummies. That was a stupid example.


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## Dene (Dec 20, 2010)

einstein00 said:


> I'm sorry if this is a noobish question, but how can V-Cube possibly accuse a 3x3x3 cube of copying the V-Cube design, if the V-Cube 3x3x3 doesn't even exist (yet)?


 
A patent is mainly just a piece of paper (or some form of legal document) and keeps an _idea_ safe. There is no need for any physical object.


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## Stefan (Dec 20, 2010)

PhillipEspinoza said:


> I do find what Tim and Stefan say about the flaw in Ebay and Paypal etc patent infringement systems important



To clarify: I don't consider it a flaw. Or at least not ebay's fault. It's not ebay's job to play judge and decide what's legal to be sold, just like it's not WCA's job to play judge and decide what's legal to be played.



PhillipEspinoza said:


> I guess it really is VeRO for Dummies. That was a stupid example.


 
How so?


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## FatBoyXPC (Dec 20, 2010)

Stefan said:


> To clarify: I don't consider it a flaw. Or at least not ebay's fault. It's not ebay's job to play judge and decide what's legal to be sold, just like it's not WCA's job to play judge and decide what's legal to be played.


 
I understand it is not eBay's job to play judge, but what about requiring legal notification? Would you consider the following quote a flaw? Legal notification should pretty much eliminate it. I think just flagging the items as possible fakes until legal notification has come through would help the situation (but I suppose some people would purchase counterfeit products and still raise a fuss about it).



> There are other problems with VeRO. Even if an eBay seller is found innocent and the merchandise is reinstated, the record is not cleared. The eBay seller’s account will still show the claim of copyright infringement leaving the seller vulnerable to potential permanent shut down. VeRO members who make false claims again and again are not reprimanded in the least, leaving them free to bombard sellers with willy-nilly accusations as they please.



Since this was written by a user that doesn't seem to have an obvious link to being in eBay administration, I'm not sure about the truth/validity behind that, but it was taken right out of the link you provided.


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## Stefan (Dec 20, 2010)

fatboyxpc said:


> I understand it is not eBay's job to play judge, but what about requiring *legal notification*?



What is that?



fatboyxpc said:


> Would you consider the following quote a flaw?



That's a flaw, yes, but it's a different issue. At least I think that Phillip wasn't talking about that but about how easy it is to get an article removed.


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## FatBoyXPC (Dec 20, 2010)

Stefan said:


> What is that?



I meant that instead of just telling eBay that you believe a product violates your patent, you have proof and can provide a document that a judge has ruled in that favor.



Stefan said:


> That's a flaw, yes, but it's a different issue. At least I think that Phillip wasn't talking about that but about how easy it is to get an article removed.


 
I agree to both.



masterofthebass said:


> why would eBay take the risk of selling an item and breaking the law on the grounds that a patent holder might not be telling the truth. If they take down the item, there's no real chance of them getting in trouble under the DMCA, but if they continue to sell the item after knowing it might be a KO, they are liable for damages. Businesses like to protect themselves first.



To avoid situations like the quote in my previous post (which I do agree it is a separate issue). I'd say the liability would depend on the actions they take, and how good their legal counsel is. For example, flagging items as possible fakes would be a positive step. This would let the copyright holder know how many units were sold, let the consumers know it might be a fake, and would show a good gesture to the court(s) that you are trying to run a fair as possible business without harming the seller or the copyright holder. It has been said before (and I completely agree with this) that VI should be going after DaYan, instead of eBay/resellers.


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## masterofthebass (Dec 20, 2010)

fatboyxpc said:


> I understand it is not eBay's job to play judge, but what about requiring legal notification?


 
why would eBay take the risk of selling an item and breaking the law on the grounds that a patent holder might not be telling the truth. If they take down the item, there's no real chance of them getting in trouble under the DMCA, but if they continue to sell the item after knowing it might be a KO, they are liable for damages. Businesses like to protect themselves first.


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## masterofthebass (Dec 20, 2010)

By the way, anyone who thought that picture the troll posted was of an actual V3, it was from TomZ's 3d printed version found here:

http://www.speedsolving.com/forum/showthread.php?11450-v-cube-3x3&p=166861&viewfull=1#post166861


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## LearningCode (Dec 20, 2010)

This is definitely off-topic, but I can't find a way to PM kastellorizo as his inbox is still full <.<
So I think I'll just drop this here..

Hey, kastellorizo, are you still in Singapore?
Free to meet up?
Or is your schedule packed?

I live in Singapore, by the way ^^


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## prostx23 (Dec 20, 2010)

cmhardw said:


> I can wield this ban hammer all day folks. Be advised.





Anyone following this thread can now see Thom had been banned, deservedly so, but you and the other mods coming on here like F**kin' Thor with your threats and declarations are getting a bit tiresome. Do your work quietly in the background, ban who needs banning, PM those who specifically need a warning. Otherwise, IMO these type of posts are just as immature as the ones that deserve deletion... perhaps like this one?


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## Rpotts (Dec 20, 2010)

I disagree prostx23. Chris politely reminding the readers of this thread of the power of his awesome banhammer gives posters a final warning before he drops it upon their domes. I personally don't think Kirjava deserved a ban, but who cares. I wouldn't call Chris immature for his post, just displaying his authority (totally necessary, imo.)


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## PhillipEspinoza (Dec 21, 2010)

Stefan said:


> To clarify: I don't consider it a flaw. Or at least not ebay's fault. It's not ebay's job to play judge and decide what's legal to be sold,



I see. It may not be their job to judge and decide what's legal, just like it's not WCA's job to decide what's legal but it certainly says something to their credibility. I consider it good customer service to make sure members get treated fairly and not unjustly. I mean, I don't think it's technically part of their "job" but if it becomes a big enough problem then they will suffer for it as people will go elsewhere. And techincally it's not anyone's job to run the WCA but I will assume you mean responsibility. However, I still think your comparison is in itself flawed:



Stefan said:


> just like it's not WCA's job to play judge and decide what's legal to be played.





WCA Regulations said:


> 3k)	Puzzles must be approved by a judge before use in the competition.



WCA does indeed judge and decide what's legal to be played. That's why there are WCA regulations saying that certain cubes that are transparent or greatly modified to enhance performance for example are not allowed in competitions in the interest of fairness. It's not WCA's "job" to ensure fairness but in order to ensure credibility so that others do not start up their own organization or association, it is in the WCA's (and also the Community's) best interest that the WCA has policies that ensure fairness. That's what gives WCA legitimacy. To give a better understanding of what I'm trying to say, here's an example. 

If it were the case that any random WCA cuber can accuse another cuber of cheating, without evidence or reason to back it up, and therefore cause a ban on the accused cuber until it's settled, there would be upset in the Community (justifiably so), especially if the cuber were a top cuber. Say this happened to Faz before he even got a chance to break the World Record. I think, even though it's not technically the WCA's job to make sure people are honest in their cheating claims that it would be wrong for the WCA to ban Faz without looking at proof or taking other measures to ensure that the cheating claim is a valid one. If the WCA had a VeRO equivalent, then I'm sure it's credibility would go down as people would know that the WCA would not be entirely representative of World Cubing if it allowed the best cubers to be banned by anyone's ungrounded complaint. I would even go so far as to say it would be a flaw in the WCA regulations. 

But as Dan pointed out Ebay is more concerned with themselves than with any of it's constituents so if it means they're safer just assuming claims are valid in order to make sure that they don't get in trouble then maybe it's more of a problem with copyright law itself?



Stefan said:


> How so?



This is probably just my bias showing as I think anything designer is stupid. The example showed how a consumer would be protected by VeRO because it prevents them from getting "fake" purses, whatever that means. I mean, it's not like the purses are actually "fake" in the sense that they're not functioning like they should. The only sense in which it's "fake" is that it doesn't have the correct lettering or a pattern is slightly off, which I find completely insignificant and not representative of actual patent infringement issues.


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## Your Mother (Dec 21, 2010)

Well, throughout time, Erno Rubik has obviously shown his interest in the Cubing community, so I think if we found a way to band together and get the attention of Rubik's, we might be able to use their help to take down, or at least stop Verdes. I think if Verdes just straight up stopped what they're doing, and put the GuHong, LingYun, and Maru 4x4 back on the market, people would put their respect back into V-Cubes, and possibly end, or partially end, the boycott against Verdes products.


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## Tim Major (Dec 21, 2010)

Your Mother said:


> Well, throughout time, Erno Rubik has obviously shown his interest in the Cubing community, so I think if we found a way to band together and get the attention of Rubik's, we might be able to use their help to take down, or at least stop Verdes.


 
Because seven towns definitely want to help a Chinese company produce 3x3s >___<


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## HavoCentral (Dec 21, 2010)

cmhardw said:


> I can wield this ban hammer all day folks. Be advised.


 
I lol'd. Im glad he let us know that the thread was being monitored, it helps to stop personal attacks and inappropriate behavior.



Tim Major said:


> Because seven towns definitely want to help a Chinese company produce 3x3s >___<


 
If that is sarcasm, Megahouse, the chinese rubiks company. >.<

EDIT: japanese, my bad. lol


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## Your Mother (Dec 21, 2010)

Tim Major said:


> Because seven towns definitely want to help a Chinese company produce 3x3s >___<


 
If you never try, 0% chance of success.
If you _do_ try, you'll at least have that tiny little itty bitty chance of success.


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## masterofthebass (Dec 21, 2010)

god... so many things wrong in these few posts. 

Megahouse is japanese, not chinese.
Erno Rubik basically hates speedcubing, and distances himself from the community. SevenTowns itself hardly cares about us either, they just use us as publicity every 2 years on their own terms.
Phillip: start boycotting eBay and petition congress to remove the idea of patents. See how far you get.


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## uberCuber (Dec 21, 2010)

Everyone can stop talking now, I have found a solution. Since I already have a 5x5, 6x6, and 7x7, I'm gonna boycott Verdes. I bet that will solve everyone's problems.


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## izovire (Dec 21, 2010)

masterofthebass said:


> god... so many things wrong in these few posts.
> 
> Megahouse is japanese, not chinese.
> Erno Rubik basically hates speedcubing, and distances himself from the community. SevenTowns itself hardly cares about us either, they just use us as publicity every 2 years on their own terms.
> Phillip: start boycotting eBay and petition congress to remove the idea of patents. See how far you get.



That's right, lol.

It seems like the discussion in this thread is wandering off into non-related things. The core of the issue is the *Legality* of the Verdes Innovations patent infringement claim that only happened on *eBay* so far. Unless the infringement claim has led to other sites... then it would be a good thing to discuss here. 

No need for ridiculous rumors... thanks!


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## prostx23 (Dec 21, 2010)

It's been a few days now. Has anything *new* happened since last week? I'd think that with the internet, and how fast news travels because of it, perhaps another shoe has dropped that we'd have heard about. More sites that sell GuHongs being threatened...something.


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## Klusion (Dec 21, 2010)

Looks like i'm ordering a few GuHongs TONIGHT!


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## Stefan (Dec 21, 2010)

Phillip: Nah, you're comparing quite different things. Don't compare WCA's completely own regulations with Ebay's implementation of federal law. The equivalent of WCA's completely own regulations are Ebay's completely own policies. I think both WCA and Ebay do judge where they're the authority, and don't where they're not.


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## choza244 (Dec 21, 2010)

damn, I'm too late but



Kirjava said:


>


 


kastellorizo said:


> (the photo you posted was the epitome of sarcasm)



WTF!!!! I can't believe that after you said that we are kids that can't understand what you are trying to say, you post this! how is that photo sarcastic????? 

Now I realize you don't even know what you say in your posts, and as I said, I'm too late to tell you this but you keep evading the questions that other members made you here, and now you change your version about the insults of the video saying that were some comments on youtube............. 

The only thing you are achieving here is that the people get even more mad with the V-cube company.

(and before you tell me that I write like an inmature kid, just wanted to tell you that english is not my native language, and for me is hard to write exactly how I think in english)


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## xkevx (Dec 21, 2010)

verdes is just being jealous with the Dayan being such a hot product...
if verdes would kindly release his ver of the V3 earlier, this problem wouldnt haven occur...all he is doing now is like a baby crying there and wasting his time with the different version of the v7's and not releasing other size cubes....

after reading the patent, i see the V3's version pieces, its different from the Dayan guhong/lingyun and someone said its like the design of the V7, i disagree with that as its not so similar compared to Dayans

so a new word in my dictionary!!!

Verdes = :fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp:fp


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## uberCuber (Dec 21, 2010)

xkevx said:


> verdes is just being jealous with the Dayan being such a hot product...
> if verdes would kindly release his ver of the V3 earlier, this problem wouldnt haven occur...all he is doing now is like a baby crying there and wasting his time with the different version of the v7's and not releasing other size cubes....
> 
> after reading the patent, i see the V3's version pieces, its different from the Dayan guhong/lingyun and someone said its like the design of the V7, i disagree with that as its not so similar compared to Dayans
> ...


 
so a new word in my dictionary!!!

xkevx = :fp:fp:fp

note that I am not using 8 facepalms due to the rule against using excessive facepalms

I would like to ask if you have actually read any of this thread at all?


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## qqwref (Dec 21, 2010)

PhillipEspinoza said:


> I mean, it's not like the purses are actually "fake" in the sense that they're not functioning like they should.


But the function of a designer purse is not to hold things - it's to be fashionable (i.e. to show to other people that you have bought a designer purse). A purse that works exactly the same but is off-brand (in a way that someone looking closely could detect) does not have anywhere near the same value of the real one.



masterofthebass said:


> Phillip: start boycotting eBay and petition congress to remove the idea of patents. See how far you get.


You're right, why bother changing laws that don't make sense? If a single person can't affect something, it's always better to leave it as it is.


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## Toquinha1977 (Dec 21, 2010)

Klusion said:


> Looks like i'm ordering a few GuHongs TONIGHT!


 
I dropped an order for like 18 DIYs (mix of black and whites) to share with the Vancouver group. Possibly a knee jerk reaction, but given that Popbuying lost their PayPal account, the same might happen to Lightake.


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## Nestor (Dec 21, 2010)

Being relatively new to cubing (not even a year) all I knew about Verdes came from an article linked in TwistyPuzzles explaining his journey on building high order puzzles. Even as a cubing-newbie, I understood the hard work and the brains required to pull out what he did when creating th V product line. What he did was amazing, and this sad incident regarding the GuHong does not affect the good impression I have towards him for his contributions. 

I own GuHongs and buy KOs (being on a extremely tight budget and deep in debt in a poor country on a bad economy, I can't afford the real thing) so it is a contradiction that I actually support his company's efforts to take a stand against what they consider an infringement upon their property. I cannot pass judgement on the matter about they having grounds to do so, and until more information is available no one can for that matter. No matter how much people argue one way or the other, in the end they have, at most, educated guesses about what is going on.

The ones I feel sorry for, and the real loosers here, are the shop vendors that now are left in limbo. After the initial storm has passed, I doubt Dayan will see a drop in sales for his amazing cube (after all, there will always be several sites that sell it or stores that accept credit cards) or that cubers will be unable to get their chinese cubes on the net anymore. But the small shop sellers are being cut off from selling their stock in a major site by this move, and that is something rather regrettable.

What is my point after saying all of this? Perhaps just that we should cool off a little.. this issue is not black and white yet some seem to be taking hard positions on one side or another. As much passion as this hobbie arises in many people, all this is still about plastic toys and is not worth it to loose our heads over it.

/flameshield on


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## avgdi (Dec 21, 2010)

Toquinha1977 said:


> I dropped an order for like 18 DIYs (mix of black and whites) to share with the Vancouver group. Possibly a knee jerk reaction, but given that Popbuying lost their PayPal account, the same might happen to Lightake.



If you have any extras could I buy one or two off of you?
I live less than an hour away from Vancouver.


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## ender9994 (Dec 21, 2010)

Although I'm not sure that the two are completely related, lightake just removed its cubing section for the time being. He said:

"Hi:
Currentle we have some problems with the cube infringement, so we have to cancel all the cubes in our site, then make a inspection to update
the normal cubes into our site.
Sorry for any inconvenience.

Lightake.com" 

Just thought I would post it here since not everyone checks the lightake thread

Doug


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## amostay2004 (Dec 21, 2010)

Oh crap it's got to Lightake now

This is gonna get ugly


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## Ethan Rosen (Dec 21, 2010)

Perhaps lightake shouldn't have sold blatantly illegal products if they didn't want to face consequences. For the record, I'm not commenting on the specifics of the guhong/v-cube case. I'm commenting on all of the other blatantly illegal puzzles they chose to sell.


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## CuberN00b (Dec 21, 2010)

Luckily i get a guhong a few months ago.
But i don't use lubix at my guhong :fp

Okay, this seems to be wrong. V-Cube claims GuHong violate their patent, but as shown _HERE_ (The 3d print of V3) I can see almost no similiarities (what i see is dissimiliarities) between V3 and GuHong.


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## Rpotts (Dec 21, 2010)

What makes you so certain the patent infringement they claim is from the V-3 Patent, and not one of their other puzzles?


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## Ethan Rosen (Dec 21, 2010)

CuberN00b said:


> Luckily i get a guhong a few months ago.
> But i don't use lubix at my guhong :fp
> 
> Okay, this seems to be wrong. V-Cube claims GuHong violate their patent, but as shown _HERE_ (The 3d print of V3) I can see almost no similiarities (what i see is dissimiliarities) between V3 and GuHong.



Your have the perfect username


----------



## CuberN00b (Dec 21, 2010)

What's wrong with my username?


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## Ethan Rosen (Dec 21, 2010)

Nothing, it's absolutely perfect.


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## CuberN00b (Dec 21, 2010)

Okay, even if V3 is launched, price will be high and shipping will take time (Because V-Cube is in Grecce). That's why people say that V-Cube's move hurts the community.

@Ethan
Thanks! BTW This reflects my slow time (sub40)


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## Dene (Dec 21, 2010)

CuberN00b said:


> Okay, even if V3 is launched, price will be high and shipping will take time (Because V-Cube is in Grecce). That's why people say that V-Cube's move hurts the community.
> 
> @Ethan
> Thanks! BTW This reflects my slow time (sub40)


 
He isn't complimenting you, he's indirectly insulting you.

And this situation has absolutely nothing to do with a V3 or shipping from Greece. The community is not hurt because the community can still get Guhongs.


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## TimMc (Dec 21, 2010)

Dene said:


> The community is not hurt because the community can still get Guhongs.



To be fair, there's a bunch of 14-year-old newbies who've just found out that they can no longer use their parent's or sibling's PayPal account to order Guhongs. The rest of us are either resourceful enough to use other payment methods or already have a bunch of Guhongs.

Tim.


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## Sortsimies (Dec 21, 2010)

I'm sure that this question have been answered, but I want to make things clear.

What is the part of kastellorizo in this mess?
I mean like is he an employee of V-cube, friend, relative or just a normal guy?

And on the topic: I disagree with Verdes but IF the v3 was already released then it would be different thing.
I think that I will buy v-cubes but if kastellorizo is employee and behaves like this... I don't know what to say


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## Nestor (Dec 21, 2010)

Just after I wrote my previous post, I went to Lightake to place my Christmas order.

[email protected]#$ me... I saved for 3 months and precisely when I am about to place my order, they get hit. This is frustrating, but I understand that inventors need to be protected so I still say that it is the right thing to do.


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## demma (Dec 21, 2010)

TimMc said:


> To be fair, there's a bunch of 14-year-old newbies who've just found out that they can no longer use their parent's or sibling's PayPal account to order Guhongs. The rest of us are either resourceful enough to use other payment methods or already have a bunch of Guhongs.
> Tim.



I live in South America, I'm 25 years old and the only affordable way to buy cubes is from Ligthake.
I have two GuHongs, btw, but I was going to try a new one and this situation pissed me off.

Tim: what's wrong if hundreds of 14 years old boys newbies want a GuHong? Anything. Let everyone, from 0 to 99, buy their cubes.


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## Zarxrax (Dec 21, 2010)

Wow, lightake too? The fact that they have taken down their ENTIRE cube shop suggests that this is going much father than just the guhong cube. I wonder what else is being taken down.


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## theace (Dec 21, 2010)

No more cubes on lightake  Hopefully, they'll come up with something better.


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## Winball (Dec 21, 2010)

It's funny how we are all talking about a toy.

I can not see how v-cubes can benefit from all of this.


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## prostx23 (Dec 21, 2010)

Zarxrax said:


> Wow, lightake too? The fact that they have taken down their ENTIRE cube shop suggests that this is going much father than just the guhong cube. I wonder what else is being taken down.



Did they remove thier stock voluntarily, or were they threatened?


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## Zarxrax (Dec 21, 2010)

prostx23 said:


> Did they remove thier stock voluntarily, or were they threatened?


I'm pretty sure they didn't remove all their cubes because they wanted to.


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## MTGjumper (Dec 21, 2010)

Zarxrax said:


> I'm pretty sure they didn't remove all their cubes because they wanted to.



It's obviously because none of the cubes were selling.


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## Stefan (Dec 21, 2010)

Ethan Rosen said:


> Perhaps lightake shouldn't have sold blatantly illegal products if they didn't want to face consequences. For the record, I'm not commenting on the specifics of the guhong/v-cube case. I'm commenting on all of the other blatantly illegal puzzles they chose to sell.


 
Like which? I thought Lightake was their attempt to stay out of trouble, by only offering legal puzzles. :confused:


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## prostx23 (Dec 21, 2010)

Zarxrax said:


> I'm pretty sure they didn't remove all their cubes because they wanted to.



Understood, but if Guhongs are the issue, then why would they take down all of thier cubes?


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## AvidCuber (Dec 21, 2010)

Stefan said:


> Like which? I thought Lightake was their attempt to stay out of trouble, by only offering legal puzzles. :confused:


 Maybe they were selling other illegal stuff, not puzzles, so Popbuying moved their entire inventory over to Lightake, and they hadn't been attacked about the puzzles yet? Just a theory.


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## Kirjava (Dec 21, 2010)

I found it odd that you didn't ban kastellorizo.

I was trying to steer the conversation towards actual V Cubes discussion.

Anyway, my infractions list is now two pages long :3


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## Stefan (Dec 21, 2010)

Kirjava said:


> Anyway, my infractions list is now two pages long :3


 
There are infraction lists? Where can I see mine? (Yeah I realize I might just not have any, but I'm curious anyway)


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## DavidWoner (Dec 21, 2010)

There is an infractions tab on your user profile.


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## Nestor (Dec 21, 2010)

Stefan said:


> Like which? I thought Lightake was their attempt to stay out of trouble, by only offering legal puzzles. :confused:


 
It always shocked me seeing the Gear Cube KO offered at 1/3 of the price AND the legit one a few pages later... just an example.


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## Stefan (Dec 21, 2010)

DavidWoner said:


> There is an infractions tab on your user profile.



Can't see one, neither in my profile nor my settings. Guess I really just don't have any.



UnAbusador said:


> It always shocked me seeing the Gear Cube KO offered at 1/3 of the price AND the legit one a few pages later... just an example.


 
Yes, I agree that it's copied, but is it illegal?


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## Andrew Ricci (Dec 21, 2010)

I don't really know where I stand on this. Perhaps the V-Cube company believes that there are legitimate similarities, or maybe they are just trying to remove the Guhong from the 3x3 market. There could quite possibly be another reason. But instead of taking sides and boycotting products, shouldn't we just wait for the information to be released?


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## Stefan (Dec 22, 2010)

Ethan Rosen said:


> The process to get ebay to take down the Guhongs probably took several months, starting with building a case.



Lol, no. You missed the part where ebay takes stuff down right away, not asking for evidence. Read Pixel 6's story of how he once did it in less than 2 hours without even being the IP owner.

http://www.speedsolving.com/forum/s...-Cube-Patent-Infringement&p=502758#post502758


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## Ethan Rosen (Dec 22, 2010)

Stefan said:


> Lol, no. You missed the part where ebay takes stuff down right away, not asking for evidence. Read Pixel 6's story of how he once did it in less than 2 hours without even being the IP owner.
> 
> http://www.speedsolving.com/forum/s...-Cube-Patent-Infringement&p=502758#post502758



I had heard from a reputable source that in this particular case, the timing was in months. I can't go beyond that, but that's where I based my estimate of months off of.


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## Stefan (Dec 22, 2010)

Ethan Rosen said:


> I had heard from a reputable source that in this particular case, the timing was in months. I can't go beyond that, but that's where I based my estimate of months off of.



I think it's been going on for that long, not taken that long.


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## izovire (Dec 22, 2010)

Right now we're waiting to see if Verdes Innovation did in fact have a *court order* prior to filing the patent infringement claim on eBay listings. I'm not sure how long it takes to obtain a court order... maybe months. 

If Verdes Innovations does or did not have a court order on the puzzles they claim is copied, then they're in for some trouble.


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## Stefan (Dec 22, 2010)

izovire said:


> Right now we're waiting to see if Verdes Innovation did in fact have a *court order* prior to filing the patent infringement claim on eBay listings.



They don't need one.



izovire said:


> If Verdes Innovations does or did not have a court order on the puzzles they claim is copied, then they're in for some *trouble*.



You mean the angry kids?


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## izovire (Dec 22, 2010)

Stefan: someone has a good attorney and is working to see if there was a court order. 

And "trouble=lawsuit"


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## Carrot (Dec 22, 2010)

I wonder if my ice cream is also infringing the patent? because I hold it in a cone! xD


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## TimMc (Dec 22, 2010)

nickvu2 said:


> Not to discount the crappiness of the situation, but assuming Guhongs get discontinued, isn't it reasonable to expect Dayan to tweak the design and release a new cube?



Of course, they're always tweaking designs (this is the alleged problem). The ones that they deem good go into mass production. Some are good, and some are bad, and sometimes it just comes down to personal preference. A few months ago the A5 was "the cube" and now it's the Dayan Guhong. I don't doubt that they'll continue mass producing different cubes.

The beauty of VeRO is that you can submit a complaint stating that someone is infringing upon your copyright (or IP) without actually having any evidence and eBay will simply remove your item or suspend your account. It doesn't take much for Verdes to have your items removed or account suspended, just persistence. So why are they doing this?

Well, based on their actions they believe that it infringes upon their rights. But there are many other reasons, one being: just because anyone can do this to another seller.

I could fraudulently submit complaints on behalf of Verdes through VeRO to have other items removed and you'd blame them for it (not that I did).  

Tim.


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## r_517 (Dec 24, 2010)

i didn't go through every post here, so if it was ninja'd, just leave it

from a random seller who received the reply from paypal: 
1. no big cubes (6x6, 7x7, 9x9, 11x11) except V cube are allowed 
2. Guhong and Lingyun are not allowed


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## masterofthebass (Dec 24, 2010)

HavoCentral said:


> Considering you hold some records in the 6x6 and 7x7 events, since when have they not been official? I see them listed as events at nationals. I see them listed on the MOA's site as unofficial events. Considering the WCA delegate and event organizer is the US V-Cube representative, I have a few questions.
> Doesn't the event organizer pick the events? Why would you go through the trouble of having an event/s (6x6 and 7x7) yet not make it/them official?
> It makes no sense so I would like someone to explain that?
> 
> It is a V-Cube sponsored competition, Does anyone know if they even tried to get the 6 and 7 events made official?


 
Stop being so blatantly ignorant. When you don't know what you are talking about, it makes sense to just stop talking.

Originally, 6x6 and 7x7 were official events at MoA. The decision was made by parties involved (not V-Cubes) to not make them official in a vain attempt to send a message to V-Cubes. This is the post Tyson made announcing this decision, and as you can see, it is after the original competition announcement. The event organizer is not the US V-Cube rep, it is mainly being organized by Bryan Logan, who has much more experience organizing competitions. I am actually quite dissatisfied with the decision by others to remove 6x6 and 7x7 as official events, as I would love to actually get results in those puzzles, but instead of hurting V-Cubes with the decision, it hurts me the competitor.

Please start reading the forum for facts about what happens in the world instead of just coming up with random scenarios which don't exist. You seem to constantly concoct these ridiculous assumptions about how things are happening, and they are entirely wrong most of the time.


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## Toquinha1977 (Dec 24, 2010)

Not sure if this qualifies as a marketplace posting or not (if so, please just let me know)...but, if anybody feels like doing a protest at their next competition...

http://www.cafepress.com/HandsOnDesign.497591988
http://www.cafepress.com/HandsOnDesign.497591989
http://www.cafepress.com/HandsOnDesign.497591987


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## Whyusosrs? (Dec 24, 2010)

Heh. The first/third was pretty funny 

The second one was too long to be funny :|


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## qqwref (Dec 25, 2010)

r_517 said:


> from a random seller who received the reply from paypal:
> *1. no big cubes (5x5,6x6,...) except V cube are allowed *
> 2. Guhong and Lingyun are not allowed


Hang on, is this what I think it is?


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## masterofthebass (Dec 25, 2010)

qqwref said:


> Hang on, is this what I think it is?


 
probably misinformation. KV has explicitly stated that Rubik/ES mechs are different.


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## qqwref (Dec 25, 2010)

That's good then, probably just a mistranslation or something.


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## r_517 (Dec 25, 2010)

qqwref said:


> Hang on, is this what I think it is?


 
sry my bad. original'd be "cubes larger than 5x5". "greater than" and "equal or greater than" are often misused in informal Chinese language


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## AvGalen (Dec 27, 2010)

For people that are actually still interested in the REAL issue:
http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20...ent-infringement-claim-not-rubiks-maker.shtml
http://twistypuzzles.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=19806

If you read the amount of detail over there, you will realize how horribly out of hand speedsolving has gone. Mods have tried, but people here seem to LIKE posting crap instead of content WAY too much. I don't follow speedsolving very much while I am travelling, but this topic I try to follow, understand, and actually try to help make this situation better. Almost 700 posts later I realize that I was looking at the wrong place. I can only hope that people here will take the time to read and understand how this was handled on TwistyPuzzles, take a good luck at their own behavior and start thinking about being helpful again.

YES, I am PO!
NO, it isn't ALL bad in here, but the level is just way way way too low on average

V-Cubes is well aware of all the commotion, but there is a reason they haven't publicly responded yet. A reaction will come .... when it will come. A lot is going on behind the screens. Post productively, read all you can if you are interested, but don't use this forum *just *for venting your frustration


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## peedu (Dec 27, 2010)

AvGalen said:


> V-Cubes is well aware of all the commotion, but there is a reason they haven't publicly responded yet. A reaction will come .... when it will come. A lot is going on behind the screens.



Is it possible to give a deadline to the release of the public response?
It just looks again something like: I know more than you do, therefore you must be patient.


Peedu


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## AvGalen (Dec 27, 2010)

peedu said:


> Is it possible to give a deadline to the release of the public response?
> It just looks again something like: I know more than you do, therefore you must be patient.
> 
> 
> Peedu


 a deadline: no, otherwise I wouldn't have said "when it will come". Responses will come but not as fast as everybody (including me) hopes
and yes, I AM saying be patient

TK 421: Your post is epic fail after what I just posted.
bluecloe45: Brilliant idea. I can see that you also read everything in this topic and thought about that post for some time. I hope you understand sarcasm


----------



## Nestor (Dec 27, 2010)

AvGalen said:


> If you read the amount of detail over there, you will realize how horribly out of hand speedsolving has gone. (...) I can only hope that people here will take the time to read and understand how this was handled on TwistyPuzzles, take a good luck at their own behavior and start thinking about being helpful again.
> 
> YES, I am PO!
> NO, it isn't ALL bad in here, but the level is just way way way too low on average
> ...


 
Twisty Puzzles is a mature community with a long history, strict regulations and the best minds/collectors/solvers in the puzzle's community sharing their ideas on a whole other level. You can't compare both sites when this one is filled with youngsters and people new to cubing who are not as involved in this hobbie / business. 

Asking for common sense here is like going to a high school and asking for mature people to come forward (for the most part).


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## ElectricDoodie (Dec 27, 2010)

Just wondering, if Verdes wins, would this make the production of GuHongs stop completely, or just their sale? Would I still be able to find them through some shady websites?

/noob question


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## LearningCode (Dec 27, 2010)

To end sales is to end a reason for production, no? <.<


----------



## ElectricDoodie (Dec 27, 2010)

LearningCode said:


> To end sales is to end a reason for production, no? <.<


Black Market for cubes. Hence me saying "shady" websites.


----------



## DavidWoner (Dec 27, 2010)

Just deleted about 150 posts. Remember the topic of this thread is the exact same as the title.


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## prostx23 (Dec 27, 2010)

ElectricDoodie said:


> Just wondering, if Verdes wins, would this make the production of GuHongs stop completely, or just their sale? Would I still be able to find them through some shady websites?
> 
> /noob question



At this point we really do not know what Verdes is after. Perhaps a licencing deal may be worked out... or something else altogether. The worst case scenario (for GuHong fans) would be to have Verdes win and completely shut down the production of the GuHong (most likely the remaining GuHongs will be sold "underground"). Keep this in mind though... the 3x3 has been evolving very rapidly over the last few years. I'd be willing to bet money that there will be a 3x3 that will come along that will make people forget about the DaYan GuHong. When that will happen, and who will make it? Who knows, But I'm sure it will happen, and probably soon.

Mike

PS: I ranted earlier in this thread about the overmoderation of this thread...boy was I wrong (and Mods (especially Chris), please accept my most humble of apoligies). I don't generally apprecaite people interfering in the free flow of conversation and ideas, but it's clear controls need to be in place to reign in the overzealousness of some of out junior members.


----------



## qqwref (Dec 27, 2010)

UnAbusador said:


> Twisty Puzzles is a mature community with a long history, strict regulations and the best minds/collectors/solvers in the puzzle's community sharing their ideas on a whole other level.


I would not say the best minds/solvers, but definitely the best collectors and puzzle creators are on twistypuzzles. You can't compare the two communities because of a huge amount of censorship on TP (censoring by the mods as well as self-censoring) as well as the possibility of random anonymous accounts here (you have to be approved to sign up on TP, and it can be difficult even for actual cubers).


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## Nestor (Dec 27, 2010)

Agree. But as I said, "strict regulations" are part of their structure and hence, more thoughtful posts will appear there. I can only imagine what would happen to any TP member if they went into a vent spree or stray a thread out of topic.


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## masterofthebass (Dec 27, 2010)

UnAbusador said:


> I can only imagine what would happen to any TP member if they went into a vent spree or stray a thread out of topic.


 
SAVE THOM
SAVE THOM
SAVE THOM
SAVE THOM


----------



## qqwref (Dec 27, 2010)

masterofthebass said:


> SAVE THOM
> SAVE THOM
> SAVE THOM
> SAVE THOM


 
*(USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST)*


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## peedu (Dec 28, 2010)

Here is my bet:

In the near future (not months, it is just weeks) you will be buying the same GuHong cube with a different name - V-3. And the cost will be between 15 and 20 dollars. And you will pay for UPS shipping.

I exaggerated a bit and I know more than you do, but be patient.

Peedu


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## Daniel Wu (Dec 28, 2010)

peedu said:


> In the near future (not months, it is just weeks) you will be buying the same GuHong cube with a different name - V-3. And the cost will be between 15 and 20 dollars. And you will pay for UPS shipping.


 And, of course, there will be rivets in place of screws.


----------



## ~Phoenix Death~ (Dec 28, 2010)

rickcube said:


> And, of course, there will be rivets in place of screws.


 
Then I am buying DaYan Screw+Spring Sets to mod it.


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## Zarxrax (Dec 28, 2010)

peedu said:


> Here is my bet:
> 
> In the near future (not months, it is just weeks) you will be buying the same GuHong cube with a different name - V-3. And the cost will be between 15 and 20 dollars. And you will pay for UPS shipping.
> 
> ...


 
Haha, so we can expect $15 shipping on our $15 cube? lovely <3


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## peedu (Dec 28, 2010)

cookieyo145 said:


> p.s. i like ur avatar



I will adjust the size of the screw according to that "information" some of "us" seem to know already, but we - the ordinary people - must be patient. Don't worry, you will get your information, it will be very soon, not months, it's only weeks.

Peedu


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## Stefan (Dec 28, 2010)

AvGalen said:


> For people that are actually still interested in the REAL issue:
> http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20...ent-infringement-claim-not-rubiks-maker.shtml
> http://twistypuzzles.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=19806


 
No. Just no. That blogger so full of fail. Made several severe mistakes and doesn't bother to correct them or reply, not even one week after being told (see comments 10 and 11). And the TPF people do have better manners (partly thanks to Pantazis not saying much there), but they're about as clueless as people here. Particularly Bram (THE Bram Cohen) who just keeps making mistakes and talked big about how bad the patent claims are written and stuff BEFORE HE HAD EVEN LOOKED AT THEM. Unbelievable.


----------



## Dene (Dec 28, 2010)

Stefan said:


> No. Just no. That blogger so full of fail. Made several severe mistakes and doesn't bother to correct them or reply, not even one week after being told (see comments 10 and 11). And the TPF people do have better manners (partly thanks to Pantazis not saying much there), but they're about as clueless as people here. Particularly Bram (THE Bram Cohen) who just keeps making mistakes and talked big about how bad the patent claims are written and stuff BEFORE HE HAD EVEN LOOKED AT THEM. Unbelievable.


 
Yea lol it was funny watching that guy getting Pochmanned.



LearningCode said:


> They may or may not do it.
> But I believe that there are many people getting kinda' paranoid about it


 
Why would they do it?? You have just proven that you don't have a clue what you are talking about it.


----------



## masterofthebass (Dec 28, 2010)

Thank you Stefan. When I read through that blog post, I couldn't believe he thought he was saying legitimate things. Bram also did seem quite clueless about patents, as however obvious an idea is, the patent system is in place to allow people to profit. There's no way the patent that has been issued in all these countries will be invalidated because Bram Cohen thinks the idea is obvious.


----------



## brunson (Dec 29, 2010)

peedu said:


> In the near future (not months, it is just weeks) you will be buying the *same GuHong cube with a different name* - V-3. And the cost will be between 15 and 20 dollars. And you will pay for UPS shipping.


 
I doubt it.


----------



## FatBoyXPC (Dec 29, 2010)

I've received word that Konstantinos will make an appearance at the Mall of America competition, I believe in effort to talk about what is going on with this situation. I'm not sure if he'll give specifics or not, but the way I understand it, is that he wants to show he is not a beast but that he has passion for the cube and the culture.

I heard this from a friend/contact I have at V-Cubes, and he's been pretty reliable with the information he gives me.


----------



## cincyaviation (Dec 29, 2010)

fatboyxpc said:


> I've received word that Konstantinos will make an appearance at the Mall of America competition, I believe in effort to talk about what is going on with this situation. I'm not sure if he'll give specifics or not, but the way I understand it, is that he wants to show he is not a beast but that he has passion for the cube and the culture.
> 
> I heard this from a friend/contact I have at V-Cubes, and he's been pretty reliable with the information he gives me.


Is it just me, or are you one of those people who knows someone everywhere? Also, there is a chance i will be at MOA11.


----------



## FatBoyXPC (Dec 29, 2010)

It must be just you because I wish I knew so many more people  Any chance you'd be able to hook me up with a free plane ride?


----------



## rachmaninovian (Dec 29, 2010)

the bram cohen, the inventor of bittorrent? :O
his klaims are funnie on TPF xD


----------



## masterofthebass (Dec 29, 2010)

rachmaninovian said:


> the bram cohen, the inventor of bittorrent? :O
> his klaims are funnie on TPF xD


 
the one and only!


----------



## joey (Dec 29, 2010)

Also, Dan Cohen's brother!


----------



## TK 421 (Dec 29, 2010)

but the rivets won't be as bd as rubik's brand right? after all verdes have a pretty good quality.

i wonder if vcube will really make v3's. won' the plastic quality be better

anyway here's some pro and con about v-cube making v-3's (guhong copy if you ask me)

+

more consistent production quality
better durability (i think)
trusted company (by cubers)



-

high prices
high shipping prices
not as widely available as the original guhong
rivet means we have to but dayan core module ( i wonder if verdes will sue that too)
needs modding


----------



## Tyson (Dec 31, 2010)

Announcement should be coming soon.


----------



## daniel0731ex (Dec 31, 2010)

soo, didn't bother to look through all the new posts in this thread. Somebody explain to me what the current status is?


----------



## Zarxrax (Dec 31, 2010)

daniel0731ex said:


> soo, didn't bother to look through all the new posts in this thread. Somebody explain to me what the current status is?


 Very little has changed since what we knew on day one. It was later discovered that they also forced lightake to take down the guhongs, so it wasn't just an ebay thing. And someone said that vcubes heard about the commotion and will maybe say something about it... some day.


----------



## TK 421 (Dec 31, 2010)

anyone getting replies from mr v yet?

pls quote them from your inbox, i'm curious to know


----------



## ElectricDoodie (Dec 31, 2010)

daniel0731ex said:


> soo, didn't bother to look through all the new posts in this thread. Somebody explain to me what the current status is?


 Those in the know, continue to be ambiguous and secretive, only telling everyone else to be "patient."


----------



## DavidWoner (Dec 31, 2010)

Zarxrax said:


> It was later discovered that they also forced lightake to take down the guhongs, so it wasn't just an ebay thing.


 
False. It was discovered that lightake took down their guhongs, where is the evidence that v-cubes forced it on them?


----------



## ender9994 (Dec 31, 2010)

DavidWoner said:


> False. It was discovered that lightake took down their guhongs, where is the evidence that v-cubes forced it on them?


 
Although not definitive evidence, these 2 quotes do seem to imply it.



Lightake.com said:


> Hi:
> Sorry for this.
> It seems Lightake is the only target that V-cube pay attention to.
> We are trying to negotiating with them and wait further news from them.
> ...





Lightake.com said:


> Hi:
> We are trying to contact V- cube to get the rights to sale them.
> It takes some time.
> Anyway,we should bring all others back to normal first.
> ...


----------



## DavidWoner (Dec 31, 2010)

Hmm interesting. I wonder if they'll fold and emerge under a new name again.


----------



## AvGalen (Dec 31, 2010)

Listen to Tyson. SOON


----------



## PJP2810 (Dec 31, 2010)

If anyone's still looking for a GuHong, there are some still left on amazon.com though they are now our of the Stickerless ones as i have just purchased the last.
I think amazon's the only place still selling them, that I can find. Although I think they too are going to stop selling them soon as they don't seem to have an endless supply as they do with most of their products.

If you want one you better hurry they're going fast, 8 of the Stickerless were sold last night alone, leaving only the last one for me.

PJP2810


----------



## TK 421 (Dec 31, 2010)

DavidWoner said:


> Hmm interesting. I wonder if they'll fold and emerge under a new name again.


 

i really wish if that's possible. because i need guhongs.

btw, if u get a guhong. get a maru spring set too.

replace the guhong spring with maru spring if the cube gets too loose (fat end of maru spring facing upwards) and do not for forget the washer below. and a special note: the completely smooth side of the washer must face towards the center cubie's bottom plastic

replace the core with A1 core *Cube 4 You (C4U) or maru core WILL NOT WORK*

don't change the screw, the guhong's screw is excellent the way it is



this mod will make the guhong very controllable and last very long


----------



## Nestor (Dec 31, 2010)

Anyone knows if Dayan will continue production of the GuHong? They have a huge market for their cubes, they just have to sell them trough other vendors.


----------



## o2gulo (Dec 31, 2010)

I hope they will still produce it.. because my cube is wearing out. And i need to change my cubes every 4-5 months:fp:fp:fp


----------



## collinbxyz (Dec 31, 2010)

http://www.cubedepotusa.com/apps/webstore/products/search?sort=&query=guhong&query_temp=guhong
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias=aps&field-keywords=guhong&x=0&y=0
http://www.icubemart.com/apps/webstore/products/show/1924523
http://cube4you.com/dayan-guhong-3x3x3-diykit-p-216.html
http://www.icubemart.com/apps/webstore/products/show/1924562
http://www.cubedepotusa.com/apps/webstore/products/show/1898935
etc.


----------



## Godmil (Dec 31, 2010)

Thanks for the links, I thought I'd never get to try a LingYun before they vanished forever.


----------



## daniel0731ex (Dec 31, 2010)

Umm, yeah but I mean what are you guys saying "soon" for?


----------



## KYLOL (Dec 31, 2010)

daniel0731ex said:


> Umm, yeah but I mean what are you guys saying "soon" for?


 
I'm sure someone will explain it,



*soon*.


----------



## ElectricDoodie (Jan 1, 2011)

daniel0731ex said:


> Umm, yeah but I mean what are you guys saying "soon" for?


 
Verdes will be releasing information on the 1st of January, 2011.


----------



## oprah62 (Jan 1, 2011)

ElectricDoodie said:


> Verdes will be releasing information on the 1st of January, 2011.


 
Wow we have to wait until next year...


----------



## y3k9 (Jan 1, 2011)

ElectricDoodie said:


> Verdes will be releasing information on the 1st of January, 2011.


Is this for sure?


----------



## AvGalen (Jan 1, 2011)

y3k9 said:


> Is this for sure?


 
From the information I have (and that is very very reliable) no date has been set, but as I said before: SOON. Now please be patient and wait for the official statement.


----------



## WilliamCuber (Jan 1, 2011)

I Agree. ITS A FREAKIN EDGE PIECE. It's Gonna Be Similar Unless You completely change the piece. I Don't See Anything Even Similar Between The Guhong And Verdes 3x3 patents. The Corners To Me Resemble An Alpha More Then The Guhong. Along With the Edge Pieces. I Don't Have any cube beside v Cubes that have a like center to the patent.


----------



## HavoCentral (Jan 1, 2011)

oprah62 said:


> Wow we have to wait until next year...


 
Yes, that is soooooooooo long from now. I cant stand to wait another minutes, let alone 5 hours.


----------



## o2gulo (Jan 1, 2011)

info plz? its januray 1 here (im on asia its already january 1 morning here).... is this date confirmed? that verdes will release info about this thing today/tommorow?:fp


----------



## joey (Jan 1, 2011)

Not going to lie, the next person to make a post like the one above will receive infractions. Learn to read posts above yours, and don't post useless crap.


----------



## PatrickJameson (Jan 1, 2011)

iz teh date tru? omg i cant wait to see what he say



Spoiler



You can't infract me = you LIE



EDIT: :fp:fp:fp:fp


----------



## maggot (Jan 1, 2011)

PatrickJameson said:


> iz teh date tru? omg i cant wait to see what he say
> 
> 
> 
> ...



i lol'd.... 
i dont really have anything productive to say. however, i will comment on the immaturity of some of the forum members. I understand that a lot of you all are kids, but that doesnt mean you have to act like one. for that which you do not understand, do not comment. again, stop posting!


----------



## mr6768 (Jan 1, 2011)

I was looking for a guhong to buy and i found this 
http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.52192
is this a guhong ?!
I bought a maru from this shop a while ago .


----------



## steph1389 (Jan 1, 2011)

Out of all honesty it isn't the only cube in the world to be good nor will it ever be.

Just get on with life and use a cube for gods sake. Plenty of other cubes on the market that are good.


----------



## Zarxrax (Jan 1, 2011)

mr6768 said:


> I was looking for a guhong to buy and i found this
> http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.52192
> is this a guhong ?!
> I bought a maru from this shop a while ago .


 
It has a picture of a goose on the box, so I think its a guhong.


----------



## ElectricDoodie (Jan 1, 2011)

Zarxrax said:


> It has a picture of a goose on the box, so I think its a guhong.


 
Is the goose lonely?


----------



## daniel0731ex (Jan 2, 2011)

I believe the box for both the Guhong and the Lingyun is the same.


----------



## Fire Cuber (Jan 2, 2011)

daniel0731ex said:


> I believe the box for both the Guhong and the Lingyun is the same.


 
Lingyun has a blue box.


----------



## prostx23 (Jan 2, 2011)

Zarxrax said:


> It has a picture of a goose on the box, so I think its a guhong.



As long as the site is legit (not in the business of selling KO's), I'd say that's a GuHong.

BTW: It's been already ponted out several times in this thread, there are still several places that sell the GuHong. It's not scarce. If you have to have one PM me and I'll point you in the direction of my favorite cube shop. I don't want to do it on this thread just in case


----------



## peedu (Jan 2, 2011)

AvGalen said:


> From the information I have (and that is very very reliable) no date has been set, but as I said before: SOON. Now please be patient and wait for the official statement.



AvGalen, you are doing a good job. The meaning of the word "SOON" has been expanding in all directions.

Maybe the Greek "σύντομα" with a direct translation as "soon" in English has some sort of side meaning like "mañana" in Spanish which could mean something like "you never know when".

That's the situation right now - we never know when. But we are patient. And the news will arrive soon, very soon.


Peedu


----------



## Edward (Jan 2, 2011)

To the people saying Guhong and vcubes are not similar: Remember when the guhong came out? Go check any earlier review. "So like yeah, here's the pieces, and it kind of reminds me of a vcube". I even remember the thread about it when it was new, everyone like "Omg vcube 3"


----------



## Kirjava (Jan 2, 2011)

Edward said:


> To the people saying Guhong and vcubes are not similar: Remember when the guhong came out? Go check any earlier review. "So like yeah, here's the pieces, and it kind of reminds me of a vcube". I even remember the thread about it when it was new, everyone like "Omg vcube 3"


 
Are you implying that everyone claiming that the two are not similar have stated that they are similar in the past?


----------



## peedu (Jan 2, 2011)

Edward said:


> To the people saying Guhong and vcubes are not similar: Remember when the guhong came out? Go check any earlier review. "So like yeah, here's the pieces, and it kind of reminds me of a vcube". I even remember the thread about it when it was new, everyone like "Omg vcube 3"


 


Kirjava said:


> Are you implying that everyone claiming that the two are not similar have stated that they are similar in the past?



I understand that there may be similarities, but my first impression to Guhong was a thought about rounded internal surfaces. I was happy with my FII at that time, but Guhong photos really made me wondering if I'm missing some good features with FII.

Quick sidekick:
I'm slow by global standards - barely sub-30, BLD around 5 minutes. Now I'm using FII for BLD (less risk to overshoot) and Guhong for speedsolves (less risk to lock)
End of sidekick.

Now could you, Edward, link or quote or show somehow where the impression of the Guhong was : 


Edward said:


> "Omg vcube 3"




Peedu


----------



## collinbxyz (Jan 2, 2011)

People these days...


----------



## uberCuber (Jan 2, 2011)

collinbxyz said:


> Kids these days with their hippity hoppity music...


 
fix'd

seriously, I don't understand why anyone cares about this as much as they do, when it has been pointed out so many times that the guhong can easily be obtained still. Everyone can shut up now kthxbai


----------



## MKLEIN (Jan 3, 2011)

*Official Announcement from V-Cubes North America*

Dear cube enthusiasts,


We want each and every cube enthusiast to know that we are actively listening to you concerns and comments. As a direct result of listening to your concerns we have taken the following actions. 

V-Cubes is not currently involved with any IP reporting with respect to Dayan and Maru, and is not taking actions against either company. After extensive talks with all involved parties, sales of Dayan and Maru products will be resumed immediately (effective January 1st 2011).

For the last few Years, V-Cubes has achieved what was previously thought impossible. To build cubes that go beyond the existing 5x5x5. It required a breakthrough in puzzle-design to achieve this feat, but with great innovation and passion we have succeeded. We will continue to keep providing you, our valued
community, with new and exciting products of only the highest quality.

Our Goal has always been to support the cubing community, not to divide it. We have organized participated and sponsored WCA-competitions with money, products and time. We are always happy to see new people solve their V-Cube for the first time as well as seeing the best of the best improve world records time and time again. We will do all we can to keep making this possible for many years to come. 

A new year has just started and we look forward to a strong 2011 for cubing and we will continue to support the cubing community. February 20th will be a particularly exciting day because we will announce a new product at the WCA competition, "Mall of America 2011". We are all quite proud to participate in the organization this event.

Finally, we would like to take this opportunity to wish you all a great new year.

Thank you,

Matthew Klein 
V-Cubes North America


----------



## Kirjava (Jan 3, 2011)

MKLEIN said:


> V-Cubes is not currently involved with any IP reporting with respect to Dayan and Maru, and is not taking actions against either company. After extensive talks with all involved parties, sales of Dayan and Maru products will be resumed immediately (effective January 1st 2011).


 
This is good, but why halt them in the first place?


----------



## Tyson (Jan 3, 2011)

MKLEIN said:


> Dear cube enthusiasts,
> 
> 
> We want each and every cube enthusiast to know that we are actively listening to you concerns and comments. As a direct result of listening to your concerns we have taken the following actions.
> ...


 
Dear Cubing Community,

The entire process of all of this has been very complex and frustrating for everyone involved. I would like to think V-Cubes North America for making this possible, and I'm glad to see the resumption of sales of the GuHong 3x3 and the Maru 4x4 cubes. Both of these cubes have contributed to significant developments competitive cubing over the last year, and I continue to be fascinated at what is possible on these puzzles as people break new records and continue to push the limits.

I would like to emphasize that the issues that have been discussed here have never been black and white, and they are far from simple. I would strongly encourage people posting on this forum to refrain from superfluous comments that do not add anything positive to the discussion.

Please understand that both Matt and I have worked very hard to make what has happened possible, and I am hoping that the community will respect the actions taken by V-Cubes, and the effort that went into making it possible. V-Cubes North America will continue to support the development of our cubing community, and we look forward to working with them on some larger projects in the future.

Thank you, and please don't post if your post is less than two sentences, and doesn't actually add anything. I know a lot of people will have a wide range of opinions regarding this, and I feel that more can be accomplished if we are more judicious over what we broadcast in public. And again, do understand these matters have been especially complex, and have taken an enormous amount of time and effort from all parties involved.

Regards,

Tyson


----------



## AvGalen (Jan 3, 2011)

Kirjava said:


> This is good, but why halt them in the first place?


 
I am semi-guessing, but it seemed obvious that V-Cubes thought the cubes infringed on the patents, contacted eBay, were pointed to the Vero-system and acted. V-Cubes have invested a lot in protecting their ideas and products and just did what they thought was the right thing. I am happy to hear that they have listened to the community, talked with the WCA, analysed the situation and corrected it. It wasn't perfect, but I for one am happy that 2011 starts like this.

Now, just like many many other people, I am looking forward to the new V-Cube product(s) that will be available soon, while still using the best cube (for now?) I own (a Guhong that I bought from Smaz in Hong Kong before knowing what they were called) to improve my times and enjoy my hobby

Now I am really off to the outback for about a week.

Also: Welcome on the forum Matt. Good to see you here


----------



## Kirjava (Jan 3, 2011)

AvGalen said:


> I am semi-guessing, but it seemed obvious that V-Cubes thought the cubes infringed on the patents, contacted eBay, were pointed to the Vero-system and acted.



And then went after any other place the cubes were being sold.



AvGalen said:


> V-Cubes have invested a lot in protecting their ideas and products and just did what they thought was the right thing. I am happy to hear that they have listened to the community, talked with the WCA, analysed the situation and corrected it.


 
TL;DR - Seeing people boycott your products and complain about your company makes you wake up and realise that you're losing money by suppressing developments. 



MKLEIN said:


> Our Goal has always been to support the cubing community, not to divide it.



You had a funny way of showing this.


----------



## Bryan (Jan 3, 2011)

MKLEIN said:


> February 20th will be a particularly exciting day because we will announce a new product at the WCA competition, "Mall of America 2011". We are all quite proud to participate in the organization this event.


 
And not only will 6x6 and 7x7 be official since this has now been resolved, but there are cash prizes for these events (and 5x5). And anyone who has compared a KO 7x7 with an authentic V-Cubes knows that V-Cubes does put out quality cubes and I look forward to seeing the new cube.


----------



## Kapusta (Jan 3, 2011)

Very, very interesting news. Thank you for this update Matthew. It's a shame I can't make it to the mall of america competition, but hopefully you will make it to one or more of the upcoming MIT competitions.


----------



## daniel0731ex (Jan 3, 2011)

MKLEIN said:


> A new year has just started and we look forward to a strong 2011 for cubing and we will continue to support the cubing community. February 20th will be a particularly exciting day because we will announce a new product at the WCA competition, "Mall of America 2011". We are all quite proud to participate in the organization this event.


 

I know what it is!! It's a "special edition" V-cube 7 with Ruben King stickers!!! 

Sounds exiting, I'm soooo gonna get one!?


----------



## ElectricDoodie (Jan 3, 2011)

ElectricDoodie said:


> Verdes will be releasing information on the 1st of January, 2011.





MKLEIN said:


> immediately (effective January 1st 2011)




I would just like to point out that my sources are the most legit sources known to man.
Thank you. And keep it tight.


----------



## joey (Jan 3, 2011)

It was the 2nd when that was posted.


----------



## Kirjava (Jan 3, 2011)

joey said:


> It was the 2nd when that was posted.


 
GO TO BED


----------



## daniel0731ex (Jan 3, 2011)

joey said:


> It was the 2nd when that was posted.



lol yeah fail.


----------



## Andrew Ricci (Jan 3, 2011)

Kirjava said:


> GO TO BED


 
NO U


daniel0731ex said:


> I know what it is!! It's a "special edition" V-cube 7 with Ruben King stickers!!!
> 
> Sounds exiting, I'm soooo gonna get one!?


 
The sad thing is, you may be right.


----------



## Bryan (Jan 3, 2011)

daniel0731ex said:


> I know what it is!! It's a "special edition" V-cube 7 with Ruben King stickers!!!


 
It's been said many times before it's not 5x5, 6x6, or 7x7.


----------



## ElectricDoodie (Jan 3, 2011)

joey said:


> It was the 2nd when that was posted.


 Maybe in your world.


----------



## dannyz0r (Jan 3, 2011)

It's not the 2nd yet down there in Florida?


----------



## Whyusosrs? (Jan 3, 2011)

It's most definitely the second down here in Florida.


----------



## Cool Frog (Jan 3, 2011)

11m
I Am rather excited about a release of a new cube, I am extremely satisfied with my other v-cube products.


----------



## ElectricDoodie (Jan 3, 2011)

dannyz0r said:


> It's not the 2nd yet down there in Florida?





Whyusosrs? said:


> It's most definitely the second down here in Florida.



Not this Florida.


----------



## HavoCentral (Jan 3, 2011)

I'm hoping that this means that the shengshou 4 and x-cube are safe as well.



Bryan said:


> It's been said many times before it's not 5x5, 6x6, or 7x7.



If it's going to be the V-4, it will be inferior to the maru, shengshou, and X-Cube.
Since all three of those puzzles improved on V-Cubes patented design. So If V-Cube were to release a better 4x4, then they would have to stray from their patent. Wouldn't they?


----------



## ~Phoenix Death~ (Jan 3, 2011)

HavoCentral said:


> I'm hoping that this means that the shengshou 4 and x-cube are safe as well.


 
I don't think they've even been touched


----------



## choza244 (Jan 3, 2011)

I'm really happy to know that the GuHong can be sold again, and like I said, now that V-cubes quit their initial intentions, I will support them again.


----------



## prostx23 (Jan 3, 2011)

All's well that ends well... :tu:tu


----------



## ElectricDoodie (Jan 3, 2011)

Now, to sit and wait for Pixel6 to open up the Ultimate Lubix Guhongs again.


----------



## deadalnix (Jan 3, 2011)

~Phoenix Death~ said:


> I don't think they've even been touched


 
Maru has been, and these cube can really be attacked. Actually, they are more vulnerable than Dayan's cubes.


----------



## Eric79 (Jan 3, 2011)

I better keep my thoughts on all that to myself since a lot of people (with Verdes leading them) most definitely would not like them.

But what I would like to get answered are these qustions:



Does MKlein only speak for the US subsidiary of V-Cubes or for the whole world?
Will be taken care that shops/Pay-Services will get this information?
Will V-Cubes again allow people to pay for those products with paypal again (since this is a thing V-Cubes has to take care about)?
And finally it means I will be officially allowed to buy Maru 4x4x4s and GuHong 3x3x3s at (lets say) Lightake (for an example) as well as pay for them with paypal again from now on?
What about the 6x6x6 and 7x7x7 cubes made by companies like YJ, Diansheng and others? Are those allowed to be sold again too (my main concern)?

I think if these questions are answered everyone can sleep well again and buy whatever cube he likes ;-) (either more expensive high quality cubes or cheaper low quality cubes)


----------



## SixSidedCube (Jan 3, 2011)

ElectricDoodie said:


> Now, to sit and wait for Pixel6 to open up the Ultimate Lubix Guhongs again.


 
He has, and he has also brought in the Elite!  


Mine, Mine, Mine...


----------



## FatBoyXPC (Jan 3, 2011)

HavoCentral said:


> If it's going to be the V-4, it will be inferior to the maru, shengshou, and X-Cube.
> Since all three of those puzzles improved on V-Cubes patented design. So If V-Cube were to release a better 4x4, then they would have to stray from their patent. Wouldn't they?


 
I was under the impression that maru was just the V-4 Mech and was more of a direct knock off, rather than an improvement. I haven't followed the talk on it much though.


----------



## izovire (Jan 3, 2011)

Good news! A lot of thanks to those that worked with V-cubes to clear this up. I look forward to competing at MOA and chatting with a few businessmen. I might be able to stock new V-cube items in the near future.

In the meantime, I have re-posted the maru 4x4 here: http://puzzleaddictions.com/puzzles/twisty/4x4x4.html for $15... pretty good deal you think?


----------



## ElectricDoodie (Jan 3, 2011)

SixSidedCube said:


> He has, and he has also brought in the Elite!
> 
> 
> Mine, Mine, Mine...


 Is he SpeakerDamage on eBay?
That guys has some Ultimates up, but I don't see any Elites on eBay.

And his website, lubixcube.com, isnt' selling it yet, and continues to say "Verdes Patent Issue."

I want the one from his main site, because for some reason, it's $5 cheaper than the ones on eBay.

inb4heraisesthepriceby$5...


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## AvGalen (Jan 4, 2011)

ElectricDoodie said:


> I would just like to point out that my sources are the most legit sources known to man.
> Thank you. And keep it tight.


 
I would like to point out that you are an idiot because this was posted on Januari 3 (Adelaide). There is a reason Tyson and I said SOON. Only V-Cube knew when they were going to publish. Your posting of "I have a good source and it WILL be January 1 is just nonsense"

I am not an official spokesperson, but it is clear that things have gone back to the way theye were before. To me, that meas that everyone that wants to sell any 3x3x3 or 4x4x4 isn't going to be bothered by V-Cubes. For bigger cubes, especially the QJ7/9/11 they are OBVIOUSLY completely illegal knock offs and should be avoided by everone


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## ElectricDoodie (Jan 4, 2011)

AvGalen said:


> I would like to point out that you are an idiot because this was posted on Januari 3 (Adelaide). There is a reason Tyson and I said SOON. Only V-Cube knew when they were going to publish. Your posting of "I have a good source and it WILL be January 1 is just nonsense"


I'm the idiot? No, you're the idiot. 
Why? Because my sources are the most legit sources known to man.

Besides, lolJanuary3rd.

Let me guess, I'll get this message modded for calling you an idiot, but yours will stay up, insulting me, because you're a mod, and you're allowed to do that, right?


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## ~Phoenix Death~ (Jan 4, 2011)

ElectricDoodie said:


> I'm the idiot? No, you're the idiot.
> Why? Because my sources are the most legit sources known to man.
> 
> Besides, lolJanuary3rd.
> ...


 
With your behavior, you're increasing your chances. How legit are your sources? Did you walk to Verdes Innovations and ask and hear they're answer directly and recorded it?


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## ElectricDoodie (Jan 4, 2011)

~Phoenix Death~ said:


> With your behavior, you're increasing your chances. How legit are your sources? Did you walk to Verdes Innovations and ask and hear they're answer directly and recorded it?


 My sources have asked to be kept anonymous. That's how legit they are.







~Phoenix Death~ said:


> and recorded it?


 I loled.


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## EricReese (Jan 4, 2011)

ElectricDoodie said:


> My sources have asked to be kept anonymous. That's how legit they are.


 

Can you please stop saying your sources are "legit". We get it. You think they're trustworthy. Let's stop the fighting. It accomplishes nothing


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## ElectricDoodie (Jan 4, 2011)

EricReese said:


> Can you please stop saying your sources are "legit". We get it. You think they're trustworthy. Let's stop the fighting. It accomplishes nothing


Good idea. But, I just wanted to make sure that the entire planet knew my sources are too legit to quit. 
Not even MC Hammer can touch it.


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## ~Phoenix Death~ (Jan 4, 2011)

ElectricDoodie said:


> Good idea. But, I just wanted to make sure that *the entire planet knew my sources are too legit to quit. *Not even MC Hammer can touch it.


 
So do the kids in Africa need to as well? How about the farmers?


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## ElectricDoodie (Jan 4, 2011)

~Phoenix Death~ said:


> So do the kids in Africa need to as well? How about the farmers?


Yes, the entire planet.
Especially the Africans and farmers.


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## ~Phoenix Death~ (Jan 4, 2011)

ElectricDoodie said:


> Yes, the entire planet.
> Especially the Africans and farmers.


 
Dang.


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## Dene (Jan 4, 2011)

ElectricDoodie said:


> I'm the idiot? No, you're the idiot.
> Why? Because my sources are the most legit sources known to man.
> 
> Besides, lolJanuary3rd.
> ...


 
So totally completely and absolutely 100% legit, and at the same time totally completely and absolutely 100% wrong. Awesome source, idiot.


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## Edward (Jan 4, 2011)

Is that some kind of crappy attempt at trolling? You're just looking like you failed to roll a joke bro. 

Glad this is resolved. Just wish my timing was better ;O I wanted a blue guhong from cube deopt, had to settle with white from MPC. I would've gotten the blue one if I had ordered a day later D:


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## aronpm (Jan 4, 2011)

ElectricDoodie said:


> AvGalen said:
> 
> 
> > I would like to point out that you are an idiot
> ...


 
HAHAHA You're an idiot




AvGalen said:


> I would like to point out that you are an idiot because this was posted on _Januari 3 (Adelaide)_


You're in Adelaide? Hiii


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## blakedacuber (Jan 4, 2011)

question to people who were goig to boycotte verdes: are you stilll going to boycotte his products??


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## AvGalen (Jan 4, 2011)

ElectricDoodie said:


> I'm the idiot? No, you're the idiot.
> Why? Because my sources are the most legit sources known to man.
> 
> Besides, lolJanuary3rd.
> ...


 
No, I will not mod your message (others might). I think it is better to keep it clearly available online for everyone to see how stupid you really are. If you would know me, you would know that I normally don't go around calling people names. But you are obviously just asking for it. Your sources weren't legit, you were wrong, your conclusions are wrong and you are acting like a child that is looking for attention. Now go to your room and think about what you are trying to do here.

I am reacting so strongly here because there was a very clear message from Chris (be careful what you say) and from Tyson and me (SOON). When you go around spreading your guesswork for facts and AFTER being warned and proven wrong you are trying to make yourself look cool, you deserve to be shown how that makes you look: like an idiot.

@aronpm: I hitchiked from Glenelg to Coober Pedy. Going up to Darwin in the next week or so


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## Hyprul 9-ty2 (Jan 4, 2011)

AvGalen said:


> Now go to your room and think about what you are trying to do here.


YOU HAVE A ROOM?
/azn


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## ElectricDoodie (Jan 4, 2011)

Dene said:


> So totally completely and absolutely 100% legit, and at the same time totally completely and absolutely 100% wrong. Awesome source, idiot.


Legit? Yes.
Wrong? No, idiot.





Edward said:


> You're just looking like you failed to roll a joke bro.


 I don't roll jokes.
I only roll dice.





aronpm said:


> HAHAHA You're an idiot


 HAHAHA You're an idiot










AvGalen said:


> No, I will not mod your message (others might). I think it is better to keep it clearly available online for everyone to see how stupid you really are. If you would know me, you would know that I normally don't go around calling people names. But you are obviously just asking for it. Your sources weren't legit, you were wrong, your conclusions are wrong and you are acting like a child that is looking for attention. Now go to your room and think about what you are trying to do here.


 I wasn't wrong. My sources were legit. This has already been addressed. Don't know how you missed it.
You're just jealous you didn't have sources that were legit as mine.




AvGalen said:


> I am reacting so strongly here because there was a very clear message from Chris (be careful what you say) and from Tyson and me (SOON). When you go around spreading your guesswork for facts and AFTER being warned and proven wrong you are trying to make yourself look cool, you deserve to be shown how that makes you look: like an idiot.


 It's not guesswork. It's facts. And as it's already been discussed in my past posts, I was right.
I was warned? Point that out to me, please. I probably missed it, so I just want to see it.




Also, it's good to know that calling others "idiot" is not a moddable offense/insult on this forum. Good for future use.


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## Eric79 (Jan 4, 2011)

AvGalen said:


> I am not an official spokesperson, but it is clear that things have gone back to the way theye were before. To me, that meas that everyone that wants to sell any 3x3x3 or 4x4x4 isn't going to be bothered by V-Cubes. For bigger cubes, especially the QJ7/9/11 they are OBVIOUSLY completely illegal knock offs and should be avoided by everone



So Arnaud, I should consider that - even though you're not an official spokesperson - all current cubes bigger than the 4x4x4 (except some 5x5x5s) are officially proved to be "OBVIOUSLY illegal knock offs" while the 4x4x4s are not (any more)? Or saying it with my words: technically all the cubes with mechanics comparable to the V-Cubes mechanics are illegal. Just from now on - out of a sudden (and I may suggest it's because of the community) - the 3x3x3s and 4x4x4s are tolerated.
That would answer my 5th question.

Any suggestion on the other four questions? I guess no official spokesperson will bother about answering my questions on this threat and thus I may just ask the greeks personally.

Well, V-Cubes should tell lightake and paypal immediately and spread the news (not only in this thread) so people can purchase and pay for those 4x4x4s again.


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## AvGalen (Jan 4, 2011)

My sources were Tyson, Bryan and Matt. The people that were actually figuring this all out and actually posted the message. Matt didn't post it on January 1 as you said would happen so you were clearly wrong. He actually posted it on January 3. January 2 in your timezone but NOT January 1. I know so well because I woke up on January 3, checked if it was already posted, send an email and saw it being posted minutes later. You keep saying you weren't wrong but you WERE and that is clear for all to see. 

About the warnings from Chris: 
http://www.speedsolving.com/forum/s...t-Infringement&p=501276&viewfull=1#post501276
http://www.speedsolving.com/forum/s...-Cube-Patent-Infringement&p=503770#post503770
http://www.speedsolving.com/forum/s...-Cube-Patent-Infringement&p=503273#post503273


ElectricDoodie said:


> Legit? Yes.
> Wrong? No, idiot.
> 
> I don't roll jokes.
> ...


 
And calling others "idiot" IS a moddable offense. I said I wouldn't mod you for it, but I also said that others might. You are not reading things that I write properly and are drawing wrong conclusions from it.

So here is my very clear warning to you: Obey the forum rules, stop being stupid, start being nice and productive or you WILL get banned


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## ElectricDoodie (Jan 4, 2011)

AvGalen said:


> My sources were Tyson, Bryan and Matt. The people that were actually figuring this all out and actually posted the message. Matt didn't post it on January 1 as you said would happen so you were clearly wrong. He actually posted it on January 3. January 2 in your timezone but NOT January 1. I know so well because I woke up on January 3, checked if it was already posted, send an email and saw it being posted minutes later. You keep saying you weren't wrong but you WERE and that is clear for all to see.


 My timezone? I find it funny that you think you know for a fact what my timezone is. Besides, I've already said it was Jan 1st for me, and where I am.





AvGalen said:


> And calling others "idiot" IS a moddable offense. I said I wouldn't mod you for it, but I also said that others might. You are not reading things that I write properly and are drawing wrong conclusions from it.
> 
> So here is my very clear warning to you: Obey the forum rules, stop being stupid, start being nice and productive or you WILL get banned


 So, being stupid can get me banned? So far, I've been obeying the forum rules. Just because one is annoying or you dislike them, does not usually give others the right to ban them for it.
Again, about following the forum rules, you were the first one to break it, by calling me an idiot. As being a "Super Moderator," you should try to set an example for others. And you did, because as soon as you started the name-calling, it gave way for others to think it's ok, and continue to call me an idiot, as they did.
So, let's not let hypocrisy get in the way.






Also, warnings weren't directed at anything that I said, it seems.
But, here is a warning that he gave, which is the first one you linked:



cmhardw said:


> Some infractions given, and lots of posts deleted. * Don't turn this thread into a flame war.* I realize that emotions and feelings are running at redline considering the circumstances, but keep the discussion civil or bans will be handed out as well.


 As you can see, he warned us not to turn this into a flame war, but you are the one who started flaming me, for something so petty.





AvGalen said:


> start being nice


 I was nice and cordial from the beginning. This only started, because you thought it was ok to start calling others idiots.
Again, follow your own example and be nice.


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## Eric79 (Jan 4, 2011)

No one has rewards for few people teasing each other with insults like pimply teenagers whose first pubic hair are growing. So could we please get back to topic and just pocket one's pride? And more important: instead of letting this other thing go on and on and with everyone in the chase for the final words about whose sources are more legit, answer directly asked questions?
And Aronpm: It'd have been nice if you would've directed your insult to a specific person and not just put it on the aether directly after my previous post.


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## cmhardw (Jan 4, 2011)

ElectricDoodie said:


> ...as soon as you started the name-calling, it gave way for others to think it's ok, and continue to call me an idiot, as they did.
> So, let's not let hypocrisy get in the way.



And every one of those people received infractions, including you, for continuing the name calling. If you're unhappy with a post that is directed at you, please report it so that a moderator can take care of it. Don't continue the name calling please.


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## AvGalen (Jan 4, 2011)

Eric79 said:


> I better keep my thoughts on all that to myself since a lot of people (with Verdes leading them) most definitely would not like them.
> 
> But what I would like to get answered are these qustions:
> 
> ...


 
1. I don't know. I got the idea he only has "power" in the US, but IS speaking for V-Cubes worldwide in this matter
2. I have heard that this was/has been taken care off
3. I assume so, but don't know
4. Yes
5. As far as I know, all of these products are infringing and V-Cubes are actively trying to keep them off the market. They have never been allowed to be sold.

I hope someone else will answer these same questions as well. I provided answers to the best of my knowledge, but as you can see from the words I am using I can't be sure about most things.


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## Stefan (Jan 4, 2011)

ElectricDoodie said:


> My timezone? I find it funny that you think you know for a fact what my timezone is. Besides, I've already said it was Jan 1st for me, and where I am.


 
There's a time zone where it's still the 1st when it's already the 3rd in others?


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## daniel0731ex (Jan 4, 2011)

lol fail posts.


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## FatBoyXPC (Jan 4, 2011)

Stefan said:


> There's a time zone where it's still the 1st when it's already the 3rd in others?


 
Lol, was thinking the same thing.

Since we got the public announcement from Matt Klein, and know (err, assume) that we can again buy GuHongs, Maru 4x4's etc., and after we get more answers for Eric79 (because AvG specifically asked for somebody else's opinion on the matter), does this thread need to stay open?


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## masterofthebass (Jan 4, 2011)

no. 

With this statement from V-Cubes, all questions and concerns should be directed at them through the proper cannels, not through posts on this forum. Sellers and buyers alike feel free to contact V-Cubes directly to discuss their statement.


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