# ZZ - method or not?



## koreancuber (Jun 3, 2010)

lol, something fun came up in the 1LLL thread. 

Is the ZZ "method" a method or not?


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## Kirjava (Jun 3, 2010)

The results of this poll will not matter. 

ZZ is a method, this isn't something you can argue against. (Not successfully, anyway XD)


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## musicninja17 (Jun 3, 2010)

^agreed. Of course it is a method. The master method, at that.


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## Feryll (Jun 3, 2010)

Should have made it public so people won't vote 'no' just to be funny.


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## iasimp1997 (Jun 3, 2010)

Of course ZZ is a method. Why wouldn't it be?
ZZ:
1. Edge orientation + DF and DB edges
2. Blockbuild remaining F2L
3. Any LL variation

Fridrich:
1. Cross
2. F2L
3. OLL
4. PLL


It isn't just a partial method like MGLS is. We're talkin' full on method.


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## koreancuber (Jun 3, 2010)

Feryll said:


> Should have made it public so people won't vote 'no' just to be funny.



yeah.... only if dan/david was here to fix it....


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## AngeL (Jun 3, 2010)

Do we even need to explain our reasoning? Of course it's a method. Anything that takes you from a scrambled cube to a solved one is technically a method.


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## Cyrus C. (Jun 3, 2010)

It's not a full 3x3x3 method, so I voted no. I think that's what you're asking.


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## Sa967St (Jun 3, 2010)

Cyrus C. said:


> It's not a full 3x3x3 method, so I voted no.


 How is it not a full 3x3x3 method?


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## Swordsman Kirby (Jun 3, 2010)

AngeL said:


> Do we even need to explain our reasoning? Of course it's a method. Anything that takes you from a scrambled cube to a solved one is technically a method.



...


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## miniGOINGS (Jun 3, 2010)

Cola;

scrambled cube --> ZZ method --> solved cube

It is definitely a full 3x3 method.


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## Ranzha (Jun 4, 2010)

I voted yes.

However, in Cola's defence:
One can do any LL variation one wishes to, whether it is CLL/EPLL, OCLL/PLL, ZBLL, etc.
Even ZZLL requires two opposite LL edges to be permuted.
Thus, the only ZZ portion of the solve would be required in F2L.


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## miniGOINGS (Jun 4, 2010)

Ranzha V. Emodrach said:


> I voted yes.
> 
> However, in Cola's defence:
> One can do any LL variation one wishes to, whether it is CLL/EPLL, OCLL/PLL, ZBLL, etc.
> ...



Well, very few people who speedsolve with Petrus actually do Petrus Last Layer. Most do OCLL + PLL or COLL + EPLL.


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## Kirjava (Jun 4, 2010)

Ranzha V. Emodrach said:


> However, in Cola's defence:
> One can do any LL variation one wishes to, whether it is CLL/EPLL, OCLL/PLL, ZBLL, etc.
> Even ZZLL requires two opposite LL edges to be permuted.
> Thus, the only ZZ portion of the solve would be required in F2L.




OMG DOES THIS MEAN THAT PETRUS ISN'T A METHOD?


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## musicninja17 (Jun 4, 2010)

Method "steps" can be interchangeable most of the time....

i.e.
OLL + PLL can be put on a Petrus solve......
for CFOP you could start out with a Petrus block and then F2L the last 2 slots....

but seriously WHY are we arguing about this? This is just stupid >_<


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## Daniel Wu (Jun 4, 2010)

Kirjava said:


> Ranzha V. Emodrach said:
> 
> 
> > However, in Cola's defence:
> ...


YES ALSO 3X3 IS NOT A CUBE NOW BECAUSE YOU CAN SOLVE IT A LOT OF DIFFERENT WAYS WITH METHODS LIKE FRIDRICH AND ROOKZ BUT ZZ AND PETRUS ARE NOT METHODS ANYMORE. 

Seriously though. I don't understand why people are saying ZZ isn't a method.


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## Kirjava (Jun 4, 2010)

I know, it's like asking if Aki is cute.


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## CuBeOrDiE (Jun 4, 2010)

Here I come! ZZ- a method? Technically, yes, BUT it is an extremely free method, and relies on block building large blocks. In other words, each step has so many ways it can be accomplished I think it doesn't even qualify as a step. It's like saying "solve the F2L somehow, then do LL however," is a method. It could be, but I consider it a concept. In other words, I think ZZ is somewhat a concept, like solving F2L or blockbuilding. Personally, I consider sub-methods of ZZ like ZZ with a fridrich style F2L or maybe an EO line with a specific way of obtaining a 1x2x3 block a method. Really, it depends on how you define method.

edit: tell me if you think otherwise, but don't take it too far... srsly, method or not, it's a way of solving the cube, no matter what you call it


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## dabmasta (Jun 4, 2010)

Kirjava said:


> I know, it's like asking if Aki is cute.



...


anyway, I would say it is a method. But I do see how the last layer can pose a problem


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## Kirjava (Jun 4, 2010)

CuBeOrDiE said:


> each step has so many ways it can be accomplished I think it doesn't even qualify as a step




ahaHAHAhahAHhahaHAHAHahahahhahaHAaha


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## StachuK1992 (Jun 4, 2010)

CuBeOrDiE said:


> It depends on how you define method.


http://www.google.com/search?q=define:method
"a way of doing something, especially a systematic way; implies an orderly logical arrangement (usually in steps) "
'nuff said.


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## CuBeOrDiE (Jun 4, 2010)

Spoiler



my friend has a translucent blue type c center cap


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## Cride5 (Jun 4, 2010)

Ranzha V. Emodrach said:


> I voted yes.
> 
> However, in Cola's defence:
> One can do any LL variation one wishes to, whether it is CLL/EPLL, OCLL/PLL, ZBLL, etc.
> ...



Permuting the two opposite edges (ie. phasing) was invented by Zbigniew Zborowski and is an intrinsic part of the ZZ method. The ZBLL subset used to solve from phased edges was proposed by ZZ, and is an intrinsic part of the ZZ method.

That was a pathetic defence!

Every stage of the ZZ method is unique to ZZ.
* EOLine <- Proposed by ZZ and unique to ZZ!
* RUL blockbuilding <- Proposed by ZZ and unique to ZZ!
* ZZLL (phasing with 1LLL) <- proposed by ZZ, and what ZZ himself uses!

Whether you use some hodge bodge hybrid of ZZ is irrelevant. ZZ is a unique method, from start to finish.


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## StachuK1992 (Jun 4, 2010)

CuBeOrDiE said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> my friend has a translucent blue type c center cap


I love you. If you're being serious, and will sendy. 
Otherwise, I'll be your sworn enemy from this point onward, as you got me excited, and lied, and don't know how to google.


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## CuBeOrDiE (Jun 4, 2010)

I am being dead serious. Problem is, he prbly won't give me the caps because that cube is the only one he has. But he bought it off ebay for <$7, maybe they still have it...


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## CuBeOrDiE (Jun 4, 2010)

Kirjava said:


> CuBeOrDiE said:
> 
> 
> > each step has so many ways it can be accomplished I think it doesn't even qualify as a step
> ...



Love the picture, my man.


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## Cride5 (Jun 4, 2010)

rickcube said:


> Seriously though. I don't understand why people are saying ZZ isn't a method.



It's because most noobs who dabble in the method don't bother trying to understand how to do it properly. They do EO, then cross, then C+E pairs ... and go "hay, this isn't a new method, it's just a funny way of doing Fridrich".

[/rant]


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## CuBeOrDiE (Jun 4, 2010)

Cride5 said:


> rickcube said:
> 
> 
> > Seriously though. I don't understand why people are saying ZZ isn't a method.
> ...



those people are redneck cubers. 



Spoiler



as for it not being a method- i never meant to say that, rather that it is very different and has so many variations and sub-methods that ZZ as ZZ intended isn't considered by some to be a method, but more of an outline. do you know what i am saying?


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## miniGOINGS (Jun 4, 2010)

CuBeOrDiE said:


> do you know what i am saying?



No.


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## CuBeOrDiE (Jun 4, 2010)

miniGOINGS said:


> CuBeOrDiE said:
> 
> 
> > do you know what i am saying?
> ...



well too bad


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## Kirjava (Jun 4, 2010)

CuBeOrDiE said:


> Love the picture, my man.




Sulking ^_^


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## CuBeOrDiE (Jun 4, 2010)




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## shelley (Jun 4, 2010)

CuBeOrDiE said:


> It's like saying "solve the F2L somehow, then do LL however," is a method.



That IS a method. Compare it to "solve all the corners somehow, then solve the remaining edges", which is also a method. Or "permute everything piece by piece using R perms and setup moves" which is a considerably less efficient method.

It's a systematic approach to solving a cube. That's what a method is. How detailed or thorough it is has nothing to do with it.

And if you're arguing that the different options you can use for LL make it "not a method", all those last layer variations can also be used after solving F2L by Fridrich, Petrus or Roux. By your stupid argument, none of those are methods.


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## CuBeOrDiE (Jun 4, 2010)

ok, i guess you could think that way. just depends on what you think and how you define method.


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## miniGOINGS (Jun 4, 2010)

CuBeOrDiE said:


> ok, i guess you could think that way. just depends on what you think and how you define method.



>.>


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## Feryll (Jun 4, 2010)

I think you should just leave him alone already. A whole flame war and 4-page thread is enough for anyone. Even if he completely butchered cubing reputation forever and doomed it's existence, as some of you are stating [NOTSERIOUSFACE]


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## koreancuber (Jun 4, 2010)

we're not flaming him only. there are 2 other people


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## CuBeOrDiE (Jun 4, 2010)

Feryll said:


> Even if he completely butchered cubing reputation forever and doomed it's existence, as some of you are stating



I already did that, remember? I became a social outcast in my first thread...


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## nck (Jun 4, 2010)

CuBeOrDiE said:


> It's like saying "solve the F2L somehow, then do LL however," is a method.


Then i suppose Fridrich isn't a method either because you can have sooo many ways in dealing with LL alone, not to mention F2L.

IMO zz is one of the most unique methods as no other method uses EOline, phasing, zzll etc. It isnt like MGLS which is just another way of doing one substep in Fridrich or ZB or WV or whatever LL methods there are, it is quite different and definitely has originality.


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