# Paranormal Events



## rubikmaster (Mar 1, 2012)

So,since there are almost no threads about anything considering ghosts,aliens,telekinesis,telepathy or any other paranormal subjects,I decided to make one.So,do you believe in ghosts or something of a similar form?Do you believe in aliens or any other form of life that could be out there?Have you or some of your friends ever encountered any paranormal activity?


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## MalusDB (Mar 1, 2012)

The Universe is infinite therefore the chance of anything ever occuring ever and always is infinite for some location. Everything is true for everywhere.

/thread


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## Godmil (Mar 1, 2012)

There probably isn't any threads because from what I've seen Cubers tend to be quite rational.
I'm just going to plant my Skeptic's flag here and see where the thread goes 

EDIT: MalusDB, did you reread that before you posted? I'm going to go out on a limb here and say the physical universe (that is a universe with anything in it other than just energy) isn't infinite.


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## d4m4s74 (Mar 1, 2012)

ghosts: no
aliens: The universe is so large it would be a waste of space (pun intended) if there were none, but they probably have never been on earth
telekinesis: I believed in it for a while, until I found out how the demonstration I saw in real life and actually was able to do worked. so I stopped believing
telepathy: It might be possible in the future, by either technical means (a device reading your mind waves and sending it to another device connected to someone elses brain, an back) or evolution (wouldn't see why though, sound is a great medium) but for now, no.


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## stricgoogle (Mar 1, 2012)

MalusDB said:


> The Universe is infinite therefore the chance of anything ever occuring ever and always is infinite for some location. Everything is true for everywhere.
> 
> /thread


Is the Universe infinite?

I don't believe in ghosts and I don't believe that aliens have visited us and been filmed doing it. I do believe that there is a form of life outside Earth.


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## Stefan (Mar 1, 2012)

MalusDB said:


> The Universe is infinite therefore the chance of anything ever occuring ever and always is infinite for some location.


 
There's an infinite number of positive numbers so at least one of them has to be negative.

Oh and I don't know what you mean with "infinite chance", but probability only goes up to 1.


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## rubikmaster (Mar 1, 2012)

Stefan said:


> There's an infinite number of positive numbers so at least one of them has to be negative.
> 
> Oh and I don't know what you mean with "infinite chance", but probability only goes up to 1.



Wow,I've also always thought if the universe is infinite then everything you can imagine has to exist somewhere in it.So,are you stating that this is wrong?Are you sure you are correct?The Universe isn't always so simple.There are probably many things out there the human mind can not and will not ever understand.We have no idea how limited are brains actually are.


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## Escher (Mar 1, 2012)

I believe in heart of the cards.


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## Stefan (Mar 1, 2012)

rubikmaster said:


> I've also always thought if the universe is infinite then everything you can imagine has to exist somewhere in it



Doubtful. Like I showed, infinity alone doesn't mean much.



rubikmaster said:


> So,are you stating that this is wrong?Are you sure you are correct?



Kinda. The reasoning is wrong. Not sure about everything existing. Too lazy to think of something that simply doesn't exist (like a negative number among the positive numbers). Maybe something like a sun covered in snow, for reasonable definitions of sun and snow. In general, something that defies the laws of the universe, ask a physicist maybe.



rubikmaster said:


> We have no idea *how limited are rains* actually are.


 
Um...


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## Godmil (Mar 1, 2012)

rubikmaster said:


> Wow,I've also always thought if the universe is infinite then everything you can imagine has to exist somewhere in it.



Well firstly the universe (probably) isn't infinite in size... (the observable universe is 90+ billion lightyears in diameter), It's not infinite in content (there are probably 170 billion galaxies, with say ~100 billions stars each), it's beginning wasn't an infinite time away (only 13.7 Billion years), but what about an infinite stretch forward... possibly, but there is one big problem... the sun is only 4.5 Billion years old but in say another 5 billion years it's going to turn into a red giant and then die away - and the earth will be destroyed with it (though life on earth will have long since died out). All the floating matter left of our solar system will eventually be swallowed up by the black hole at the center of our galaxy - and all other stars will fall into whatever blackholes are nearest... at some point pretty much everything will be inside blackholes. Expansion will see these black holes travelling over the universe's horizon so they will never have contact with one another, and over a LONG LONG time they will be slowly leaking (Hawkins) radiaton - lowering their mass until they eventually fade away... all that will be left is low levels of energy, which will disperse, cool down and eventually fade to nothing, while the universe will still go on, just empty of anything meaningful.

Now, in that time, could you say: "The Universe is infinite, therefore there must at some place/time be a version of New York that's exactly the same as our current one, only the Statue of Liberty glows pink." Well, no. In the small period of time that there actually are stars and planets and life, there are still a limited number of planets, so the chances of another one being almost exactly the same as ours is still incredibly unlikely.


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## mrpotatoman14 (Mar 1, 2012)

I don't believe in ghosts but I definitely believe in aliens.


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## KJ (Mar 1, 2012)

LOL i've gone through fazes where I can't sleep at night because I'm freaked out by different stuff, and ghosts $ aliens was one of them. 

Ever heard of the slenderman?


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## Mike Hughey (Mar 1, 2012)

I was disappointed when I found out what this thread was about. When I read the title, I was hoping it would be about events like the following:

1. Telepathic team BLD
2. Match the scramble in the adjacent room
3. UFO solves in a UFO


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## ZamHalen (Mar 3, 2012)

Escher said:


> I believe in heart of the cards.


 You're my hero.

On topic:I believe all of that to a certain extent. For example: Aliens probably do exist but they aren't the bug eyed freaks we made for ourselves, and are more than likely similar to us. Ghosts are tormented or forgotten people who's souls cannot rest.(Some may link this to telepathy).

Generally there are realistic concepts for all of what is mentioned and more, but some stuff is just flat out ridiculous and unrealistic.


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## MiPiCubed (Mar 3, 2012)

I don't agree with talking about ghosts and aliens in the same thread. One is most likely to exist, the other, well, all laws of physics would need to be rewritten for them to exist.


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## aronpm (Mar 3, 2012)

The topic of aliens here is not "does extraterrestrial life exist elsewhere in the universe?" (because the answer to that is "probably"), but rather "does intelligent extraterrestrial life visit Earth in the form of UFOs and does the government try to cover it up?" (the answer to which is "extremely unlikely and not backed up by any credible evidence")


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## ~Adam~ (Mar 3, 2012)

MalusDB said:


> The Universe is infinite therefore the chance of anything ever occuring ever and always is infinite for some location. Everything is true for everywhere.


 
Wow and no. Our universe is about 14 billion years old (or 6000, who knows). It has been expanding that entire time. Something which is already infinte in size can't, by definition, expand.

Oh and to relpy to the OP I don't believe in any supernatural stuff. As for aliens, the fact that we exsist implies that life must exsist outside of our planet just from a statistical POV IMHO.



ZamHalen said:


> Aliens probably do exist but they aren't the bug eyed freaks we made for ourselves, and are more than likely similar to us.



I would go completey the opposite way and say that the image of a grey 4 limbed large eyed creature is far too close to us to be a 'typical' alien. I'm not saying that there can't be aliens like that but we are carbon based lifeforms which are 60% water and look at the variety of life that exsists on Earth. Aliens don't have to breath oxygen or survive on water nessesary to live so their appearence could be considered ridiculously strange to us.


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## Stefan (Mar 3, 2012)

cube-o-holic said:


> Something which is already infinte in size can't, by definition, expand.



The set of natural numbers is infinite and you can expand it to the set of real numbers.

I'd like to see that definition you're talking about.


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## jonlin (Mar 3, 2012)

My cousin has talked to ghosts, and I've seen one.
Ghosts don't live in America, and research proves that they exist.



cube-o-holic said:


> Wow and no. Our universe is about 14 billion years old (or 6000, who knows). It has been expanding that entire time. Something which is already infinte in size can't, by definition, expand.


He meant the universe has infinite space, so anything anywhere could exist.


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## aronpm (Mar 3, 2012)

jonlin said:


> My cousin has talked to ghosts, and I've seen one.
> Ghosts don't live in America, and research proves that they exist.


LOL. Please indulge us.



jonlin said:


> Sorry for double posting.
> He meant the universe has infinite space, so anything anywhere could exist.


No it doesn't.


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## Stefan (Mar 3, 2012)

aronpm said:


> No it doesn't.


 
How do you know? At least according to Wikipedia, _"it is uncertain whether the size of the universe is finite or infinite"_.


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## Cube-Fu (Mar 3, 2012)

Aliens possibly, the others maybe in the distant fufture. Infinity? If the universe is infinite, then all things would be happening at once, as they are obviously not, it is concluded, no? Much the same as infinite parralel universes, or time travel.

There is the posibility of ghosts existing in some kind of electro-magnetic form. The human body kicks off a great deal of said energy, and the world has a strong field of the same, maybe there is a kind of pseudo-electric fingerprint left behind, but if there's any type of cognitive ability, then why is it not common knowledge?



cube-o-holic said:


> Wow and no. Our universe is about 14 billion years old (or 6000, who knows). It has been expanding that entire time. Something which is already infinte in size can't, by definition, expand.
> 
> Oh and to relpy to the OP I don't believe in any supernatural stuff. As for aliens, the fact that we exsist implies that life must exsist outside of our planet just from a statistical POV IMHO.
> 
> ...


 
Don't agree that you know the universe is expanding, we've had this conversation in the past and all we have is a very small percent of the universe to go on, so no more claims that can't be proven please. But I do agree that alien life is much more likely to take another form; I would say that the simpler forms of life, such as yeast or fungi etc. are actually quite common, but we simply haven't had enough time to find them.


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## Stefan (Mar 3, 2012)

Cube-Fu said:


> all we have is a very small percent of the universe to go on,* so no more claims that can't be proven please*


 
Isn't _"all we have is a *very small percent* of the universe to go on"_ such a claim?


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## Owen (Mar 3, 2012)

Darn. I though this thread was going to be about people's various paranormal experiences , but instead, it's dumb arguing. Recently I've been thinking about tornadoes, and then some tornadoes came. I think I can summon them.

(Also, what do people mean by not believing in ghosts? It's obvious they exist, the question is what exactly they are.)


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## Stefan (Mar 3, 2012)

Owen said:


> It's obvious they exist, the question is what exactly they are.



Shouldn't you have a definition of something *before *you assert its existence?


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## Owen (Mar 3, 2012)

By "what they are" I meant what causes the phenomenon. Sorry for the confusion.


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## rubikmaster (Mar 3, 2012)

Owen said:


> Darn. I thought this thread was going to be about people's various paranormal experiences , but instead, it's dumb arguing.


Agreed.THAT is why I made this thread in the first place.Almost everybody's got a a ghost story or two or just any paranormal experience.I would really like to hear your experiences with this stuff.If you didn't have one,I'm sure one of your friends had.


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## mrpotatoman14 (Mar 3, 2012)

ZamHalen said:


> You're my hero.
> Aliens probably do exist but they aren't the bug eyed freaks we made for ourselves, and are more than likely similar to us.


 this


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## d4m4s74 (Mar 3, 2012)

Just posting a link I think is interesting
http://www.cracked.com/article_18828_the-creepy-scientific-explanation-behind-ghost-sightings.html


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## cubernya (Mar 3, 2012)

d4m4s74 said:


> Just posting a link I think is interesting
> http://www.cracked.com/article_18828_the-creepy-scientific-explanation-behind-ghost-sightings.html


 
Explain how people have caught pictures of ghosts then 

And by the way, I actually have had a teacher take a picture of a ghost. We were sitting on a wall in Gettysburg, when she took a picture (we were on a field trip ). She showed it to me on the bus later, and there was a ghost below a person's feet (it looked like a reflection, but it was multiple feet below where reflectors would be on a person's shoes)


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## ZincK_NOVA (Mar 3, 2012)

Stefan said:


> The set of natural numbers is infinite and you can expand it to the set of real numbers.
> 
> I'd like to see that definition you're talking about.


 
So are you saying that there are more real numbers than natural numbers?


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## Jostle (Mar 3, 2012)

theZcuber said:


> Explain how people have caught pictures of ghosts then
> 
> And by the way, I actually have had a teacher take a picture of a ghost. We were sitting on a wall in Gettysburg, when she took a picture (we were on a field trip ). She showed it to me on the bus later, and there was a ghost below a person's feet (it looked like a reflection, but it was multiple feet below where reflectors would be on a person's shoes)


 
Pics or it didn't happen.


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## cubernya (Mar 3, 2012)

It was like 3 years ago, so I'm not sure if she still has it. I'll ask her though!


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## Robocopter87 (Mar 3, 2012)

On topic, everything beyond aliens is nonsense.

The idea that NOTHING is out there in all that space is just ridiculous.

EDIT: I double posted for a reason.


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## Godmil (Mar 3, 2012)

theZcuber said:


> And by the way, I actually have had a teacher take a picture of a ghost.



Premise 1: A picture with an unexplained blur exists
Premise 2:
Premise 3:
Premise 4:
Premise 5:
Premise 6:
Conclusion: Ghosts exist.

You'll have to do a lot more filling in the blanks before we can begin to assess your logic


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## Hershey (Mar 3, 2012)

rubikmaster said:


> So,do you believe in ghosts or something of a similar form?Do you believe in aliens or any other form of life that could be out there?


 
Is there any evidence that such things exist? 
(As for aliens, I am agnostic on their existance.)


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## LeighzerCuber (Mar 3, 2012)

MalusDB said:


> The Universe is infinite therefore the chance of anything ever occuring ever and always is infinite for some location. Everything is true for everywhere.
> 
> /thread



Evidence?


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## ZamHalen (Mar 3, 2012)

cube-o-holic said:


> I would go completey the opposite way and say that the image of a grey 4 limbed large eyed creature is far too close to us to be a 'typical' alien. I'm not saying that there can't be aliens like that but we are carbon based lifeforms which are 60% water and look at the variety of life that exsists on Earth. Aliens don't have to breath oxygen or survive on water nessesary to live so their appearence could be considered ridiculously strange to us.


 
I mean that chances are that the process of evolution would more than likely lead to something that is more similar to us than we'd like to imagine. I just don't see how anything could look like something we have made for ourselves. (think an imaginary friend).I have to admit that what I said weakens my previous statement slightly but I still stand by that concept.


Now for a ghost story and another (sort of):
One day I was at my elementary school after most of the teachers left (my mom worked there and had to stay a little later so I was bored). I decided to go ahead and walk around the halls. I was passing by my 2nd grade classroom and I noticed that the door was open but the lights were off, so I passed by and looked in and saw a woman in white clothes looking at a book. Now I have to say I didn't think anything of it at the moment being that I was 9 so kept walking a few feet but stopped as it was near the end of the hall. I turned around walking back and looked into the class again and didn't see anyone and the room was still dark. I have to honestly say that It wasn't until a few minutes later that realized that something was wrong with that entire scene. I hadn't gone far enough to have not heard someone leaving the room, there was no one else in the area, and when I turned around the hallway was empty. I soon came to the conclusion that what I had seen was possibly a ghost (even though I didn't want to believe that.).(Believe what you will that's what I saw).

Now for a "sort of ghost story":
I was in 5th grade and had already mostly forgotten about what I saw a couple of years back, and I decided to make a poorly thought out ghost story in which an old library had been destroyed in a storm killing the librarian inside and that all this happened on the land the school was built on.Now someone obviously was gullible enough to believe it and the story was soon distorted to be that the woman who's picture was in the library haunted our school (the woman the school was named for.)
(This next part is unclear as I happened to be out of school when this happened). Apparently when the power went out in the school and two girls went the restroom (at different times). Now they both looked into the mirror thought they saw the ghost from my distorted story and fainted. So I laughed and that was the end. (oh and it wasn't a ghost it was a cutout of a man on a gondola.


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## qqwref (Mar 3, 2012)

Mike Hughey said:


> I was disappointed when I found out what this thread was about. When I read the title, I was hoping it would be about events like the following:
> 
> 1. Telepathic team BLD
> 2. Match the scramble in the adjacent room
> 3. UFO solves in a UFO


I feel like nobody noticed how much win this post contains. That's a pity.


I'm the kind of person who only believes in something if there's reasonable evidence to suggest it. The way people normally talk about the paranormal, it's just not plausible - stories of weird shadows, creepy feelings, alien abductions, occult ceremonies, ESP, etc. can be explained pretty well by sensory misinterpretations, delusions/mass hysteria, incorrect memories, and magic tricks. There just isn't scientific evidence that suggests that these things are true.

However, several "paranormal" ideas are entirely plausible, just not quite in the way people think of them. Aliens (as in, intelligent organisms living somewhere other than Earth) almost certainly exist. Telepathy (as in, being able to know what someone else is thinking) will almost certainly be possible in the future through technology, as we develop better 3D imaging techniques, like the MRI, and understand the brain in more detail. Telekinesis (as in, moving an object without physically touching it) will also almost certainly be possible in the future through technology, since we're already working on machines that can operate based on someone's thoughts, and we already know how to affect an object using only electromagnetic waves and fields. Cryptids (animals unrecognized by science, such as Bigfoot) could potentially exist, although it would be very unlikely considering the amount of effort people have spent trying to find them. So in a way a lot of this depends on how much you're willing to expand your definitions, and on how long you're willing to wait.


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## MTGjumper (Mar 3, 2012)

ZincK_NOVA said:


> So are you saying that there are more real numbers than natural numbers?


 
Pretty much.


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## Stefan (Mar 3, 2012)

Owen said:


> By "what they are" I meant what causes the phenomenon. Sorry for the confusion.



You missed the real point. You said it's obvious ghosts exist. I don't think so, so I'd like to know your definition of ghosts (and then maybe how their existence is obvious).



ZincK_NOVA said:


> So are you saying that there are more real numbers than natural numbers?



Yes. You didn't know?


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## ZincK_NOVA (Mar 3, 2012)

I hope that's sarcasm because my head doesn't quite see how "infinite < infinite" makes sense


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## Specs112 (Mar 3, 2012)

ZincK_NOVA said:


> I hope that's sarcasm because my head doesn't quite see how "infinite < infinite" makes sense


 
It's not even a debatable fact. It's mathematically proven. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardinality_of_the_continuum

The problem here is your head.


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## MTGjumper (Mar 3, 2012)

ZincK_NOVA said:


> I hope that's sarcasm because my head doesn't quite see how "infinite < infinite" makes sense


 
What if I told you there were as many integers (ie ... -2, -1, 0, 1, 2 ...) as there are natural numbers (ie 0, 1, 2 ...)?


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## ZincK_NOVA (Mar 4, 2012)

Which is why I said my head doesn't understand.
Besides, why do people have a habit of making analogies and then saying because their analogy is proven to be one thing, the actual topic is also proven as this?
I'm not sure if I made that clear, it is rather late, I just wanted to reply before I forget to.
Also "debatable fact" seems like a bit of a contradiction to me; if it is fact, how can it be up for debate? jus' sayin'.


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## Jaycee (Mar 4, 2012)

ZincK_NOVA said:


> Also "debatable fact" seems like a bit of a contradiction to me; if it is fact, how can it be up for debate? jus' sayin'.


 
But he said



Specs112 said:


> It's *not* even a debatable fact. It's mathematically proven.


 
See my point? It's a fact; therefore is *not* debatable. And even if that's not what he meant to say, who cares? It was pretty easy to understand that he said it's not debatable.


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## Stefan (Mar 4, 2012)

Jaycee said:


> But he said [it's not even a debatable fact]


 
Um... saying a particular thing isn't a debatable fact suggests that there are other things that *are *debatable facts. Otherwise the term "debatable fact" doesn't make sense. And now even you yourself said "It's a fact; *therefore* is not debatable". Make up your mind about whether debatable facts exist, please, then answer Zinc's perfectly legitimate question appropriately. Or don't, cause it would just be speculation anyway and only Specs can really answer how he meant that.



ZincK_NOVA said:


> Which is why I said my head doesn't understand.



In short: mathematicians distinguish different infinities, two infinite sets being the same "size" if you can pair up their elements. For example integers (on the left) and natural numbers (on the right):

0 <-> 0
1 <-> 1
-1 <-> 2
2 <-> 3
-2 <-> 4
3 <-> 5
-3 <-> 6
...

That's a simple rule to match all integers with all natural numbers, so they're considered the same size. You can't do that with natural numbers and real numbers, so in this sense there are more real numbers than natural numbers.



ZincK_NOVA said:


> why do people have a habit of making analogies and then saying because their analogy is proven to be one thing, the actual topic is also proven as this?



Well, maybe they're right. Can you show the example that caused you to ask this?


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## Jaycee (Mar 4, 2012)

Stefan said:


> words


 
My apologies; I guess I misinterpreted what Specs said (Or maybe mean something completely different). I agree with Zinc. The term "debatable fact" is a paradox (an oxymoron?) in my eyes, so I don't think debatable facts exist.


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## Hodari (Mar 4, 2012)

ZincK_NOVA said:


> I hope that's sarcasm because my head doesn't quite see how "infinite < infinite" makes sense


 
Like this?



Jaycee said:


> The term "debatable fact" is a paradox (an oxymoron?) in my eyes, so I don't think debatable facts exist.


 
Just because something IS a fact, doesn't necessarily mean that everyone accepts it as such. Thus there could still be debate over it. Consider evolution for example. Either it is true or it is not, therefore one or the other is a fact. Yet there is still considerable debate over it.


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## JasonK (Mar 4, 2012)

Hodari said:


> Consider evolution for example. Either it is true or it is not, therefore one or the other is a fact. Yet there is still considerable debate over it.


 
Ignorant people denying a demonstrable fact for no good reason =/= Debate


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## insane569 (Mar 4, 2012)

Hodari said:


> Just because something IS a fact, doesn't necessarily mean that everyone accepts it as such. Thus there could still be debate over it. Consider evolution for example. Either it is true or it is not, therefore one or the other is a fact. Yet there is still considerable debate over it.


 
Evolution is only a theory.


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## Jaycee (Mar 4, 2012)

Hodari said:


> Just because something IS a fact, doesn't necessarily mean that everyone accepts it as such.


 
Just because some people don't accept it as such, doesn't necessarily mean that something is a fact. If something is a known fact, it shouldn't be debated about, at least on terms on whether or not it is a fact. Your example doesn't make sense because neither side is proven to be factual. (I keep having to correct myself :3)

EDIT : Yes, the first part of this post (me reversing his statement) was just me being an ass.
The good part is, it still made sense.


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## aronpm (Mar 4, 2012)

insane569 said:


> Evolution is only a theory.


 
You're right. But please, learn the difference between a scientific theory and a 'theory' in everyday language before you make a fool out of yourself.


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## JasonK (Mar 4, 2012)

insane569 said:


> Evolution is only a theory.


 Please learn what the word "theory" means before you stary describing something as 'just a theory'. A theory is a model of the way the world works which has evidence supporting it and has stood the test of time without being falsified. It's the strongest explanation you can get in most areas of science. So "just a theory" doesn't make much sense if you're trying to discredit evolution, which is one of the best-supported theories in modern science...


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## Hodari (Mar 4, 2012)

insane569 said:


> Evolution is only a theory.


 
Yes and no. Aside from the point everyone else has made about the meaning of "theory", there is also another point I was trying to make. There is a difference between what we know or believe to be true and what actually IS true. In the case of evolution, regardless of how much debate there is on the subject, one of the following statements IS absolutely true and therefore a fact:
Evolution did occur. OR
Evolution did not occur.

Yet, there is still a considerable amount of debate over which of the two statements is true, thus a fact can be debatable.


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## Specs112 (Mar 4, 2012)

Stefan said:


> Um... saying a particular thing isn't a debatable fact suggests that there are other things that *are *debatable facts. Otherwise the term "debatable fact" doesn't make sense. And now even you yourself said "It's a fact; *therefore* is not debatable". Make up your mind about whether debatable facts exist, please, then answer Zinc's perfectly legitimate question appropriately. Or don't, cause it would just be speculation anyway and only Specs can really answer how he meant that.


 
"Not even a debatable fact" is something that has become one of my stock phrases that I use out of habit. I realize that it doesn't actually make too much sense because of how it's worded, but when I say it what I mean is that the thing in question is true beyond all doubt (and the one here is proven to be true because math and stuff blah blah someone else can explain it better). 

I should probably stop saying it because it confuses people sometimes.


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## Hershey (Mar 4, 2012)

insane569 said:


> Evolution is only a theory.


 
So is gravity.


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## Robocopter87 (Mar 4, 2012)

Yeah I think my internet is haunted. A ghost mod keeps following everything I say and deleting my posts.

Seriously, Mod. Stop doing that.I made an on topic joke. Is it illegal? Simply because you may not understand the joke doesn't mean its not supposed to be there. You gave no warning. No notice. No mention of a reason to why you did what you did. 

There was nothing wrong with my joke. it was about ghosts. It was about a specific type of ghost. It was relevant. It was funny. 

Evolution talk reminds me of that one Futurama episode.

As for the actual paranormal stuff, the people who believe in it are merely going off of heart rather than mind. Pictures and stories are just that. Pictures and stories. The fact that there is a orb of light and a wierd refleciton doesn't mean the earth is crawling with spiritual beings. its preposterous. If it was the case, then why are they only found in abandoned houses? Would they not be everywhere? Why aren't there ghosts on the street They are ghosts. Why are they only limited to "haunted houses". Wouldn't the be elsewhere in the world? 

The amount of people that die and the amount of haunted houses does not have a reasonable ratio. Do you know how many human beings are on this earth? If there were ghosts, I assure you I could walk down the street and be able to see at least three.


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## qqwref (Mar 4, 2012)

@Hodari: String theory is an entirely different case. I don't know how much research you've done on the debates in the physics community, but there are actually a number of theories that do an equally good job of explaining particle physics, and at the moment there are no known experiments that could actually disprove any of them with respect to the others. For some reason the attitude in most of the physics community is that if you're not working on string theory you're wasting your time and deserve no respect at all. On the other hand, evolution is well-documented, fits the available evidence, and has no reasonable competing theories.

@insane569: Speaking of "just a theory", the word "theory" is pretty much the best you can get in science, because scientists know that it is always potentially possible for new evidence to come up that requires us to change the theory (perhaps only in the details, perhaps on a larger scale). There is no dogma in science, just a lot of smart people and a lot of evidence/experiments.


But let's not derail the topic too much. Back to paranormal events, specifically psychic phenomena. What do you guys think of Randi? I personally think he's pretty awesome, but I'm sure there are some who will disagree with this.


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## aronpm (Mar 4, 2012)

qqwref said:


> What do you guys think of Randi? I personally think he's pretty awesome, but I'm sure there are some who will disagree with this.


 
Awesome guy


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## Cool Frog (Mar 4, 2012)

http://www.youtube.com/user/ShirakOmegaX

Just going to leave this here.
[23:05] <CPdragon> I didn't really say if I believe his videos where real or not.
[23:05] <CPdragon> I mean his videos are filmed with a potato (and would be rather easy to fake)


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## samehsameh (Mar 4, 2012)

ZincK_NOVA said:


> I hope that's sarcasm because my head doesn't quite see how "infinite < infinite" makes sense


 
For two infinite sequences too be equal there must be some mapping that for all x in 1 set you can arrive at all x in the other. This is obviously possible for Natural numbers to Integers but there exisits no mapping from Integers to Reals. There are infintely many numbers in the integers (...,-3,-2,-1,0,1,2,3,...) take any sub interval on this in the reals say (0,1) then there are infintely many numbers between those two numbers, since there are infintely many sub intervals in the intergers then the reals are infintely many more numbers in the reals than there are in the integers. However take any sub interval in the reals, this has the same size as the whole set of reals which is mad right? but its about a mapping. for instance tan(x) for (\( \frac{-\pi}{2},\frac{\pi}{2} \)) takes every point in this interval to every number in the reals. Which is why the concept of infinty is to me paranormal.

But about ghosts, i dont believe and wont believe without good evidence of which there is none atm.
Life outside of our own planet, yes i think so. 
Intelligent life outside our own planet, yes i think so.


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## MTGjumper (Mar 4, 2012)

samehsameh said:


> There are infintely many numbers in the integers (...,-3,-2,-1,0,1,2,3,...) take any sub interval on this in the reals say (0,1) then there are infintely many numbers between those two numbers, since there are infintely many sub intervals in the intergers then the reals are infintely many more numbers in the reals than there are in the integers..


 
This argument isn't valid. There are infinitely many numbers in the interval (0,1) if we're working in the rationals. However, the rationals are countably infinite (mapping p/q (in lowest terms) to (2^p)*(3^q) works).


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## David Zemdegs (Mar 4, 2012)

It continues to amaze me how gullible people are.


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## Godmil (Mar 4, 2012)

qqwref said:


> What do you guys think of Randi?



I love what the JREF do. (Also if anyone doesn't already, I highly recommend listening to the Skeptics Guide to the Universe... I went through all 350 episodes in about 4 months, and learned sooooooo much about all these pseudosciences).
The infinity and evolution things seem like they should be threads in their own right.
Anyway, this thread is great, I'm just going to go and get some more popcorn


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## d4m4s74 (Mar 4, 2012)

samehsameh said:


> Life outside of our own planet, yes i think so.
> Intelligent life outside our own planet, yes i think so.


 
Intelligent life on our planet: I highly doubt it.

(note, this is not directed to anyone in particular, the whole world is f*ed up)


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## Stefan (Mar 4, 2012)

qqwref said:


> What do you guys think of Randi?


 
Very good. Followed his weekly Swift a few years ago and liked it a lot, just eventually stopped cause it got a bit repetitive and I didn't want to spend the time on it anymore.



samehsameh said:


> For two infinite sequences too be equal...


 
set ≠ sequence
equal size ≠ equal


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## ZincK_NOVA (Mar 4, 2012)

MTGjumper said:


> What if I told you there were as many integers (ie ... -2, -1, 0, 1, 2 ...) as there are natural numbers (ie 0, 1, 2 ...)?


Makes sense I'd say..? My head agrees with this.



Stefan said:


> In short: mathematicians distinguish different infinities, two infinite sets being the same "size" if you can pair up their elements. For example integers (on the left) and natural numbers (on the right):
> 
> 0 <-> 0
> 1 <-> 1
> ...


I think I understand, thanks for clearing that up. but does this hold significance in the real world or is it just for the sake of math? I'd guess that it does have some use but I'm struggling to think of any examples.




Stefan said:


> Well, maybe they're right. Can you show the example that caused you to ask this?


It was more of a general comment as how arguments usually start to stray from the original point because people just like arguing/debating so much. If you really like, I could find an example of this but I fear that this is drifting off-topic. Maybe I should say "I like ghosts" just to make this a little more relevant.



Specs112 said:


> I should probably stop saying it because it confuses people sometimes.


 
Or try "not even a debatable issue" or something? Stock phrases are cool, don't bin them, just tweak them. 

--------------
Also on a very very side note:


Stefan said:


> ...then answer Zinc's perfectly legitimate question appropriately.





Jaycee said:


> I agree with Zinc


Not that this has any significance, but I'm Zinc*K*, the nickname wasn't intended to be related to the metal and was a rather annoying coincidence ("Zinc Potassium? what does that mean?"). You have no idea how happy it would make me if you called me ZincK (and I had no idea how creepy that would sound until I typed it).


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## Gaétan Guimond (Mar 4, 2012)

Life outside of our own planet, yes i think so.

Able to traverse the galaxy (science alien) I have trouble believing.




.........................................................................................

Personne ne maîtrise parfaitement un 2x2, alors imagine les autres.


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## samehsameh (Mar 4, 2012)

MTGjumper said:


> This argument isn't valid. There are infinitely many numbers in the interval (0,1) if we're working in the rationals. However, the rationals are countably infinite (mapping p/q (in lowest terms) to (2^p)*(3^q) works).


 
I dont see how your point is any more valid since i was talking about the reals and youve taken a sub set of that which was countably infinite and ingnore almost every number there is in due to the irrationals being uncountably infinite. I was using it as a thought experiment not a proof (obviously), if you can show 1 interval contains infinite numbers in one number system and a finite number in another yet there are infinitely many of those intervals in the set then the two sets cant be equal size i.e. the cardinality ("size")of \( \mathbb{R} \) is not equal to the cardinality of \( \mathbb{Z} \) even though they are both infinite sets.


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## MTGjumper (Mar 4, 2012)

You're argument effectively boiled down to that in the reals there are infinitely many sub-intervals each containing infinitely many numbers, so there must be more reals than natural numbers. I was saying you could also apply the same logic to the rational numbers (that is, in each interval of length one, there are infinitely many numbers, and there are are infinitely many such sets) yet you still have a countably infinite set.


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## Kenneth (Mar 4, 2012)

E=mc^2

That says you need a infinite amount of energy to accelerate anything that has a mass to the speed of light. So you have to go at least a bit slower than light. The nerest star is approx 4 light years away, so if they comes from there they need to travel more than four years to get here.

But, that is if you can reach that speed in no time, but if you did the G-forces would make you look like a pizza, flat and messy. You need to accelerate slowly, for humans not more than 1.5-2 G is possible in longer periods.

Get it, no aliens comes here because it would take too long to travel! (for the same reasons humans will never leave this solar system).

An argument is: "but they use stargates, wormholes, whatever..."

And things like that exists outside sci-fi?


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## qqwref (Mar 4, 2012)

Kenneth said:


> E=mc^2
> 
> That says you need a infinite amount of energy to accelerate anything that has a mass to the speed of light.


Nope, wrong formula. This one says that you can convert between energy and mass, with a conversion factor of c^2.



Kenneth said:


> So you have to go at least a bit slower than light.


To be fair about this, current theory only says that you can't go faster than the speed of light relative to local space. Technically, it would be possible to travel a distance faster than light by somehow finding a shorter path (such as a wormhole). We just don't know enough about the possibilities to anticipate what kind of technology an alien race might use.



Kenneth said:


> You need to accelerate slowly, for humans not more than 1.5-2 G is possible in longer periods.


Actually, "With a G-suit, accelerations of up to 8G can be tolerated for relatively long periods of time" - although it'd still take over a month, which I guess isn't THAT bad. And perhaps a spaceship designed for near-light speed would have even better technology than this, so very high accelerations would be no problem. 



Kenneth said:


> An argument is: "but they use stargates, wormholes, whatever..."
> 
> And things like that exists outside sci-fi?


Who knows? We still propel our ships through space by shooting stuff out one end. I think humans have a very long way to go before space travel is remotely practical, and before we can even decide what's possible and what isn't.


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## Kenneth (Mar 4, 2012)

qqwref said:


> Nope, wrong formula. This one says that you can convert between energy and mass, with a conversion factor of c^2.



Well, I ment it implies what I said.


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## ~Adam~ (Mar 4, 2012)

Kenneth said:


> That says you need a infinite amount of energy to accelerate anything that has a mass to the speed of light. So you have to go at least a bit slower than light. The nerest star is approx 4 light years away, so if they comes from there they need to travel more than four years to get here.



You have forgotten or don't know to take into account that time slows down as you approach the speed of light. You could potentially get up to high enough speeds that you could travel lightyears per second (by your watch but for a stationary object your trip would take years).


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## Kian (Mar 4, 2012)

qqwref said:


> What do you guys think of Randi? I personally think he's pretty awesome, but I'm sure there are some who will disagree with this.


 
Disagreeing with his use of empirical data and a comprehensive approach to disproving things would require someone to abhor science and rational thought. James Randi is awesome.


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## Kenneth (Mar 4, 2012)

cube-o-holic said:


> You have forgotten or don't know to take into account that time slows down as you approach the speed of light. You could potentially get up to high enough speeds that you could travel lightyears per second (by your watch but for a stationary object your trip would take years).



Gravity also speeds up time, I don't now how much time it is in empty space whith no greate mass nearby?

You travel for a few years, but at home hundreds of years passes, it will be much like a trip with no return...


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## Specs112 (Mar 4, 2012)

Kenneth said:


> Gravity also speeds up time, I don't now how much time it is in empty space whith no greate mass nearby?


 
You got that flipped turnways.



> You travel for a few years, but at home hundreds of years passes, it will be much like a trip with no return...


 
So? Doesn't mean we can't do it.


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## Kenneth (Mar 4, 2012)

Specs112 said:


> You got that flipped turnways.



Eh? I did not get that because your expression is new to me (I'm not a native speaker) And I was asking because I don't know... 



Specs112 said:


> So? Doesn't mean we can't do it.



What I'm trying to say is that it takes much too long time, and here we are talking about the nearest stars, how big is the chance aliens dwells there, most stars are much more distant.


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## Sillas (Mar 4, 2012)

fazdad said:


> It continues to amaze me how gullible people are.


I would say that.


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## ZamHalen (Mar 4, 2012)

Anyone want to hear about some of the weird stuff that goes on at my high school?


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## Specs112 (Mar 4, 2012)

ZamHalen said:


> Anyone want to hear about some of the weird stuff that goes on at my high school?


 
Go on...


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## drewsopchak (Mar 5, 2012)

There's likely aliens because of the billions of solar systems in the billions of galaxies. However, there is no god, ghost, magic, near death bull ****, miracles or anything of the sort; there is no supernatural dimension.


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## samehsameh (Mar 5, 2012)

When you say "there is no ..." you make it seem as if its fact when its just what you believe.


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## Godmil (Mar 5, 2012)

samehsameh said:


> When you say "there is no ..." you make it seem as if its fact when its just what you believe.



Yeah, he was a bit definitive with that statement... he should have said something like "There has never in the history of the human race been any strong evidence to support the existence of..."

Shame on you Drewsopchak for not being open to the idea that any day now everything we know about reality and the universe could turn out to be completely false.

... any day now.


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## Cool Frog (Mar 5, 2012)

drewsopchak said:


> There's likely aliens because of the billions of solar systems in the billions of galaxies. However, there is no god, ghost, magic, *near death bull *****, miracles or anything of the sort; there is no supernatural dimension.


 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimethyltryptamine#Conjecture

"Dr. Rick Strassman, while conducting DMT research in the 1990s at the University of New Mexico, *advanced the controversial hypothesis that a massive release of DMT from the pineal gland prior to death or near death was the cause of the near death experience (NDE) phenomenon*. Several of his test subjects reported NDE-like audio or visual hallucinations. His explanation for this was the possible lack of panic involved in the clinical setting and possible dosage differences between those administered and those encountered in actual NDE cases. Several subjects also reported contact with 'other beings', alien like, insectoid or reptilian in nature, in highly advanced technological environments"


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## drewsopchak (Mar 5, 2012)

samehsameh said:


> When you say "there is no ..." you make it seem as if its fact when its just what you believe.


 
I think you mean "it's". Would you like me to say what I don't believe? But anyway, the burden of proof falls to the person making the claim. What is asserted without evidence, may be dismissed without evidence.


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## samehsameh (Mar 5, 2012)

Godmil said:


> Yeah, he was a bit definitive with that statement... he should have said something like "There has never in the history of the human race been any strong evidence to support the existence of..."
> 
> Shame on you Drewsopchak for not being open to the idea that any day now everything we know about reality and the universe could turn out to be completely false.
> 
> ... any day now.


 
My sarcasm detector broke the other day but i have a feeling it would be going of the scale right now. I somewhat agree with the stuff hes said but he doesnt know it to be true, he believes it to be true. Things like what he listed that are either on or beyond the edge of fictional are almost certainly not true but the onus is not on disbelievers to disprove but for believers to prove. Just because it hasnt been explained or wont be explained tomorrow doesnt mean it wont be explained ever. Science doesnt understand the very beginings of life but you believe that at some point they will in the same way some people believe they will eventually explain the paranormal.


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## drewsopchak (Mar 5, 2012)

Cool Frog said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimethyltryptamine#Conjecture
> 
> "Dr. Rick Strassman, while conducting DMT research in the 1990s at the University of New Mexico, *advanced the controversial hypothesis that a massive release of DMT from the pineal gland prior to death or near death was the cause of the near death experience (NDE) phenomenon*. Several of his test subjects reported NDE-like audio or visual hallucinations. His explanation for this was the possible lack of panic involved in the clinical setting and possible dosage differences between those administered and those encountered in actual NDE cases. Several subjects also reported contact with 'other beings', alien like, insectoid or reptilian in nature, in highly advanced technological environments"


 Yeah exactly.... Near death experiences are hallucinogenic.


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## Cool Frog (Mar 5, 2012)

drewsopchak said:


> Yeah exactly.... Near death experiences are hallucinogenic.





drewsopchak said:


> *However, there is no* god, ghost, magic, near death bull ****, miracles or anything of the sort; there is no supernatural dimension.



Wait, so they exist? or not?


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## insane569 (Mar 5, 2012)

drewsopchak said:


> By near death bull I meant the way people somehow use them to justify theism.


 
Like when some one claims that god spoke to them when they nearly died AND then claim that a god does exist.



rubikmaster said:


> Seriously,what the heck is this thread turning into?I didn't make it so that all you do is just argue about stuff.I would really like some to hear some paranormal experiences.


Well when you ask something that might relate to religion or the question "Does god exist" you will have alot of arguements.


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## ZamHalen (Mar 5, 2012)

drewsopchak said:


> There's likely aliens because of the billions of solar systems in the billions of galaxies. However, there is no god, ghost, magic, near death bull ****, miracles or anything of the sort; there is no supernatural dimension.


 
That's a bold statement.

Now the stories I have are all ghost based as I have personally never witnessed any "alien" activity.

First I'll give some background about my school. It was built fairly recently (a little over 12 years ago) and outside of town in an area which was used by ranchers in the 1800s. Records show that the school covers parts of 3 different ranches, each with a private family cemetery.

The first story I will tell is the oldest and most popular told by janitors, teachers, students, and even construction workers (I'll start with the construction workers since they were the first witnesses). While the school was being built the workers were working late night in order to meet the deadline and a few were checking the lockers upstairs which had just been installed to make sure that everything had gone right. While walking down the halls they began hearing tapping on the lockers first from down the hallway but slowly approaching. As the sound got closer they realized that it was a little boy and called out that he needed to come over to them because they were in a construction zone.But the boy ignored them and ran to a room.When the workers checked the room it was empty much to their surprise. This continued to happen until the school was open. The next story I heard was that a girl was staying late to work on the yearbook and the 2nd floor janitor passed by to say that he was leaving told her to close the door on her way out. An hour or so later she began hearing tapping on the lockers, and seeing that she was the last person in the building she was obviously scared.She decided to leave and as she walked out she heard the tapping from around the corner and she went the other way. As she walked into the main hallway she saw that the source of the tapping was a little boy, but something was strange. She claims that he was dressed in long outdated clothes and was holding a balloon that is not typical of modern balloons(it was perfectly round). Finding this strange she ran downstairs,and got out of the school.
Now there are other stories of people on the second floor hearing a crying child late at night, and the janitors tend to clean the second floor first so that they aren't there at night. I usually wouldn't be one to believe this stuff but I have seen at least one anomaly, the fact that even though the janitors turn off the stairwell lights for the weekend, they are always on when we pass by on the nights of the weekend.
That is just one of three prominent ghost rumors on our school, this one being the most commonly witnessed.

I can tell the other two if anyone wants them but at this point they are pretty outlandish (even though I think that's the point).


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## drewsopchak (Mar 5, 2012)

anyway, all religions use near death experiences to prove that their prophet was a virgin (As if women are the worst) or that god hates contraception, or that a talking snake made people evil, so Yahweh got a messianic Jew Crucified or some dogma. It's truly annoying. That and the god of the gaps argument.


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## insane569 (Mar 5, 2012)

drewsopchak said:


> That and the god of the gaps argument.


 
God of the gaps? 

OT: I do believe that life might exist out there somewhere. If it happened here over a couple of years then it can POSSIBLY happen some where else. The universe isn't a 5 year old child.


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## Hershey (Mar 5, 2012)

insane569 said:


> God of the gaps?


 
The idea that whatever question that can't be answered by science, can be answered by "god did it".


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## Specs112 (Mar 5, 2012)

Hershey said:


> The idea that whatever question that can't be answered by science, can be answered by "god did it".


 
It's complete BS, essentially.


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## emolover (Mar 5, 2012)

insane569 said:


> *If it happened here over a couple of years* then it can POSSIBLY happen some where else. The universe isn't a 5 year old child.


 
Where the hell do you get that from?


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## insane569 (Mar 5, 2012)

Hershey said:


> The idea that whatever question that can't be answered by science, can be answered by "god did it".


 
O Okay. Thanks for clearing that up. 



emolover said:


> Where the hell do you get that from?


 
You're not familiar with my terminology.


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## Jaycee (Mar 5, 2012)

insane569 said:


> Your not familiar with my terminology.


 
Doesn't it make sense to not use "your terminology" unless you explain it? this iz teh interwebz, plz tlk so evry1 can understnd. (Talking like that is hard work. )


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## Godmil (Mar 5, 2012)

insane569 said:


> If it happened here over a couple of years then it can POSSIBLY happen some where else. The universe isn't a 5 year old child.



This reminded me of a section in Carl Sagan's seminal TV show Cosmos (which I only saw for the first time a couple of months back - still well worth watching). In it he suggested that with the billions of years it took to form the stars and planets of our solar system, then the billions of years for life to evolve from a single cell to intelligent species like us... and since the universe is less than 14 billion years old, then you could think, if there are other forms of intelligent life, that we could be one of the first.


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## ~Adam~ (Mar 5, 2012)

Kenneth said:


> You travel for a few years, but at home hundreds of years passes, it will be much like a trip with no return...


 
Using the original formula you posted if you could convert matter to pure energy (which I personally don't think is beyond the realms of possibility) a single kilo of anything could be converted to 9 x 10^16 J of energy (3 billon times as much energy as gasoline per litre), effectively allowing you to transport entire civilisations at the same time making the time difference meaningless.


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## Godmil (Mar 5, 2012)

cube-o-holic said:


> Using the original formula you posted if you could convert matter to pure energy (which I personally don't think is beyond the realms of possibility) a single kilo of anything could be converted to 9 x 10^16 J of energy (3 billon times as much energy as gasoline per litre), effectively allowing you to transport entire civilisations at the same time making the time difference meaningless.



Yes, small amounts of mass equals huge amounts of energy... that's how atomic bombs work. Nuclear Fusion or Fission is absolutely the way to propel a space ship over long distances, as the weight of fuel would become a massive hinderance. A huge problem with a trip to Mars is if you weren't prepared for it to be one way, it's a massive challenge getting enough fuel for you to be able to launch back off of Mars surface.
Transporting a large amount of people... enough so that they could reproduce and go on for generations is entirely feasable for the future. There is another idea, that I personally find really scary... which is to send frozen embryos... after a LONG time travelling they could be defrosted and allowed to grow, then brought up by robots on their new home planet.


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## ~Adam~ (Mar 5, 2012)

Why do Aliens always seem to obducted red necks with low intelligence? You'd think they would want a cross section of society.


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## ZamHalen (Mar 5, 2012)

cube-o-holic said:


> On topic - Why do Aliens always seem to obducted red necks with low intelligence? You'd think they would want a cross section of society.


 They respond well to the "special beer" once they begin?

IDK but everyone I know who has a UFO story lives outside of town towards the countryside, except we're Hispanic around here so I guess they don't pick us up.


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## Godmil (Mar 5, 2012)

cube-o-holic said:


> Why do Aliens always seem to obducted red necks with low intelligence?



The same reason that Ghosts wait until they're only one person around. Plausible deniability... you know, should they ever get taken to court.


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## qqwref (Mar 5, 2012)

Godmil said:


> Yes, small amounts of mass equals huge amounts of energy... that's how atomic bombs work. Nuclear Fusion or Fission is absolutely the way to propel a space ship over long distances...


Close. Atomic bombs work on nuclear fission and fusion; from what I hear, antimatter reactions produce something like 1000 times as much energy as nuclear fission reactions and 300 times as much as nuclear fusion reactions. So antimatter-based propulsion systems actually have much more potential for energy storage than any nuclear-based systems ever could. Of course, containment is a little trickier...



Godmil said:


> There is another idea, that I personally find really scary... which is to send frozen embryos... after a LONG time travelling they could be defrosted and allowed to grow, then brought up by robots on their new home planet.


I don't think anyone would seriously consider populating a space colony entirely with infants and robots. Even if nothing goes wrong while they're growing up, you'd get some significant social and societal problems, and I doubt most of the citizens would end up psychologically healthy.


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## d4m4s74 (Mar 5, 2012)

They should invent a way to make "hypersleep"/stasis like in the science fiction movies work safely


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## Kenneth (Mar 6, 2012)

cube-o-holic said:


> Using the original formula you posted if you could convert matter to pure energy (which I personally don't think is beyond the realms of possibility) a single kilo of anything could be converted to 9 x 10^16 J of energy (3 billon times as much energy as gasoline per litre), effectively allowing you to transport entire civilisations at the same time making the time difference meaningless.


 
Ah, that, let's build a greate star ship, a modern ark, take it all with us and then go randomly out there...

Was I the first to realize this whole solar system works exactly like that? this planet is our star ship


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