# Non-Permuting OLL Algorithms, Improving PLL look ahead



## Jorghi (Aug 12, 2011)

I was trying to find a way to predict the PLL case during OLL, and it just takes too much to know how each OLL affects permutation, so I tried seeing if I could Ignore Permutation completely, and made these algorithms(Cube Explorer).

Because of these I can sometimes make a 2x1 last layer block to control permutation but I just get lucky most times. But I think this is good for people who are obsessed with look ahead(not me).



Spoiler



Permutation Ignoring 2Look OLLs:
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<NPOLL 27/S/Sune>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>:
2G:
U' R2 U R U' R U2 R U' R U2 R U' R U R2 U2 (17f*)
U' R2 U R' U R U2 R U2 R U R' U R2 U R' U2 (17f*)
U' R' U R2 U R' U R U2 R U2 R U R' U R2 U2 (17f*)
R' U R' U R2 U R' U R2 U R' U R U2 R U2 R2 (17f*)
R' U' R U R2 U R2 U R U' R U2 R U' R U2 R2 (17f*)

3G:
U L2 U L U' L U2 L U' L U2 L U' L U L2 (16f*)
U L2 U L' U L U2 L U2 L U L' U L2 U L' (16f*)
U L' U L2 U L' U L U2 L U2 L U L' U L2 (16f*)
U2 L' U2 R U' L U' L' U2 R' U2 L U' R U' R' (16f*)
R U' L' U' L2 U' R2 U L2 U' R2 U' R' U' L U (16f*)
R' U2 L U' R U' R' U2 L' U2 R U' L U' L' U2 (16f*)
U R' U' R U' L U2 R' U2 L' U' L U' R U2 L' U (17f)

Optimal:
U2 F' U' F2 R' F' R2 U' R' (9f*)
B' U' B2 L' B' L2 U' L' U2 (9f*)
B' R2 D' R' D2 B' D' B2 R' (9f*)
U R' U' R2 B' R' B2 U' B' U (10f)
U R' U' R2 B' D B' D' B2 R' (10f)
U R' F2 D' F' D F' R2 U' R' (10f)
U2 F' U' F U' R2 B' R' B R' (10f)
U2 F' L F' L' F2 U' R U' R' (10f)
U' L' U' L2 F' L' F2 U' F' U' (10f)
B' U' B U' L2 F' L' F L' U2 (10f)




<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<NPOLL 26/-S/Anti-Sune>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>:
2G:
U' R U' R2 U' R U' R' U2 R' U2 R' U' R U' R2 (16f*)
U' R2 U' R U' R' U2 R' U2 R' U' R U' R2 U' R (16f*)
U' R2 U' R' U R' U2 R' U R' U2 R' U R' U' R2 (16f*)

3G:
U2 R U2 L' U R' U R U2 L U2 R' U L' U L (16f*)
U' R U' R2 U' R U' R' U2 R' U2 R' U' R U' R2 (16f*)
U' R2 U' R U' R' U2 R' U2 R' U' R U' R2 U' R (16f*)
U' R2 U' R' U R' U2 R' U R' U2 R' U R' U' R2 (16f*)
L U2 R' U L' U L U2 R U2 L' U R' U R U2 (16f*)
L' U R U R2 U L2 U' R2 U L2 U L U R' U' (16f*)

Optimal:
U2 F U F2 L F L2 U L (9f*)
B U B2 R B R2 U R U2 (9f*)
B L2 D L D2 B D B2 L (9f*)
U R U R2 F R F2 U F U (10f)
U2 F U F' U L2 B L B' L (10f)
U2 F R' F R F2 U L' U L (10f)
U' L U L2 B D' B D B2 L (10f)
U' L U L2 B L B2 U B U' (10f)
U' L F2 D F D' F L2 U L (10f)
B U B2 R D' R D R2 B U' (10f)
B U B' U R2 F R F' R U2 (10f)
B L2 D F' D F D2 L B' L (10f)
B L2 D L D' L B2 U B U' (10f)
B L' B D2 R D R' D B2 L (10f)
B L' B L B2 U R' U R U2 (10f)




<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<NPOLL 21/H/Double Sune>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>:
2G:
U R U R2 U' R2 U' R U2 R U2 R U' R2 U' R2 U R (18f*)
U' R' U' R2 U R2 U R' U2 R' U2 R' U R2 U R2 U' R' (18f*)

3G:
U R U R2 U' R2 U' R U2 R U2 R U' R2 U' R2 U R (18f*)
U L U L2 U' L2 U' L U2 L U2 L U' L2 U' L2 U L (18f*)

Optimal:
U R F' U2 F U2 R B D2 F' L U2 F D2 B' (15f*)
U R2 B' R' B U' F R2 U R U' R2 F' U R' (15f*)
U R' U B' R2 U' R U R2 B U' F R' F' R2 (15f*)




<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<NPOLL 22/Pi/Wheel>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>:
2G:
R U R2 U' R2 U' R2 U2 R2 U' R' U R U2 R' U (16f*)
R' U' R2 U R2 U R2 U2 R2 U R U' R' U2 R U' (16f*)

3G:
U L' U2 L U L' U' L2 U2 L2 U' L2 U' L2 U L (16f*)
U' L U2 L' U' L U L2 U2 L2 U L2 U L2 U' L' (16f*)
R U R2 U' R2 U' R2 U2 R2 U' R' U R U2 R' U (16f*)
R' U' R2 U R2 U R2 U2 R2 U R U' R' U2 R U' (16f*)

Optimal:
F R U R' U' F' B' R' U' R U B (12f*)
F' U' L' U L F B U L U' L' B' (12f*)
B U L U' L' F' B' U' L' U L F (12f*)
B' R' U' R U F B R U R' U' F' (12f*)
U R U B U' B' R' U' F' U' L' U L F (14f)
U R U B U' B' R' L' U' B' U B L U' (14f)
U R' F' U' F U R U' F R U R' U' F' (14f)
U R' F' U' F U R L F U F' U' L' U' (14f)
U L F U F' U' R' L' F' U' F U R U' (14f)
U L F U F' U' L' U' B' R' U' R U B (14f)
U L' U' B' U B R L U B U' B' R' U' (14f)
U L' U' B' U B L U' B U L U' L' B' (14f)




<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<NPOLL 23/U/Headlights>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>:
2G:U R U2 R U2 R' U R' U2 R U2 R U R' U' R' (16f*)
U R U2 R U2 R' U' R U' R' U2 R' U2 R U R' (16f*)
U' R2 U' R' U R U R' U' R2 U' R2 U R' U R2 (16f*)
U' R2 U' R' U R' U' R2 U R2 U R U' R U R2 (16f*)

3G:
U R L U2 L' U' R' U2 R L U L' U R' (14f*)
U R L U2 L' U' L U' R' L' U2 R U R' (14f*)
U' R' L' U2 R U R' U R L U2 L' U' L (14f*)
U' R' L' U2 R U L U2 R' L' U' R U' L (14f*)

Optimal:
U F D' F2 U L2 U' L2 F U' F2 D F2 (13f*)
U L2 U B U' B2 D L2 D' L2 B U' L2 (13f*)
U L2 D L U' L2 D F2 D' F2 L D' L2 (13f*)
U L2 B' U B2 D' B2 U' B' D B2 U' L2 (13f*)
U L2 B' D L2 D' L2 D' B' D B2 U' L2 (13f*)
U2 B U2 F' U L2 F' L2 F U2 B' U F (13f*)
U2 B U2 B' R U2 F' U2 F R2 B' R B (13f*)
U2 B U2 B' R2 F R' F' U2 F' U2 F R' (13f*)
U2 B U2 B' R2 F R' B' R2 F' R2 B R' (13f*)
U2 B' U2 F U' R2 F R2 F' U2 B U' F' (13f*)
U2 B' U2 B L2 F' L F U2 F U2 F' L (13f*)
U2 B' U2 B L2 F' L B L2 F L2 B' L (13f*)
U2 B' U2 B L' U2 F U2 F' L2 B L' B' (13f*)
U' R2 U' B' U B2 D' R2 D R2 B' U R2 (13f*)
U' R2 D' R' U R2 D' F2 D F2 R' D R2 (13f*)
U' R2 B U' B2 D B2 U B D' B2 U R2 (13f*)
U' R2 B D' R2 D R2 D B D' B2 U R2 (13f*)
U' F' D F2 U' R2 U R2 F' U F2 D' F2 (13f*)
R U2 R F' D2 F R' U2 R F' D2 F R2 (13f*)
R D' R2 U F2 U' F2 R U' R2 D R2 U (13f*)
R D' R2 U F2 U' F2 R D' F2 D F2 D (13f*)





<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<NPOLL 24/T/Shark>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>:
2G:
U R' U R U2 R' U2 R' U' R U' R' U2 R U2 R (16f*)
U R' U' R' U R U2 R U2 R' U R' U2 R U2 R (16f*)
U' R U R U' R' U2 R' U2 R U' R U2 R' U2 R' (16f*)
U' R U' R' U2 R U2 R U R' U R U2 R' U2 R' (16f*)
R U R' U R U2 R' U2 R' U' R U' R' U2 R U2 (16f*)
R U R' U' R' U R U2 R U2 R' U R' U2 R U2 (16f*)
R' U' R U R U' R' U2 R' U2 R U' R U2 R' U2 (16f*)
R' U' R U' R' U2 R U2 R U R' U R U2 R' U2 (16f*)

3G:
U R' U R U2 R' L' U' L U' L' U2 R L (14f*)
U R' U L' U R L U2 R' U' L' U2 R L (14f*)
U' R U' R' U2 R L U L' U L U2 R' L' (14f*)
U' R U' L U' R' L' U2 R U L U2 R' L' (14f*)
R U R' U R U2 R' L' U' L U' L' U2 L (14f*)
R U R' U L' U R L U2 R' U' L' U2 L (14f*)
R' U' R U' R' U2 R L U L' U L U2 L' (14f*)
R' U' R U' L U' R' L' U2 R U L U2 L' (14f*)

Optimal:U L2 U' F L2 D' L2 D F2 U' F U L2 (13f*)
U L2 U' F2 D F' U' F2 D' F2 U F' L2 (13f*)
U L2 U' F2 D F' D' L2 D' L2 D F' L2 (13f*)
U L2 D' L B2 D' B2 D L2 U' L D L2 (13f*)
U B2 D B2 U' B L2 U' L2 U B2 D' B (13f*)
U2 R U L' U2 R B2 R' B2 U R' U2 L (13f*)
U2 R' U' L U2 R' F2 R F2 U' R U2 L' (13f*)
U2 F' R U2 R' U2 R' F' R F2 L' U2 L (13f*)




<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<NPOLL 25/L/Bowtie>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>:
2G:U R' U2 R U2 R U R' U' R' U R U2 R U2 R' (16f*)
U' R U' R' U2 R' U2 R U R' U R U2 R U2 R' (16f*)
R U R2 U2 R2 U' R' U R' U' R2 U2 R2 U R U' (16f*)
R2 U R U' R U R2 U2 R2 U' R' U R' U' R2 U2 (16f*)
R' U R U2 R U2 R' U R' U2 R U2 R U R' U' (16f*)
R' U R U2 R U2 R' U' R U' R' U2 R' U2 R U (16f*)

3G:U' R U' R' L' U2 L U R U2 R' L' U' L (14f*)
U' R U' R' L' U2 L U L' U R L U2 R' (14f*)
U' L' U2 R L U R' U R U2 R' L' U' L (14f*)
U' L' U2 R L U R' U L' U R L U2 R' (14f*)
R' U R L U2 L' U' R' U2 R L U L' U (14f*)
R' U R L U2 L' U' L U' R' L' U2 R U (14f*)
L U2 R' L' U' R U' R' U2 R L U L' U (14f*)
L U2 R' L' U' R U' L U' R' L' U2 R U (14f*)

Optimal:
U2 R F' D2 F R' U2 R F' D2 F R' (12f*)
U2 F' R D2 R' F U2 F' R D2 R' F (12f*)
L B' D2 B L' U2 L B' D2 B L' U2 (12f*)
B' L D2 L' B U2 B' L D2 L' B U2 (12f*)


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## Hershey (Aug 12, 2011)

Predicting PLL before OLL?

Reminds me of R-OLL.

"R-OLL (Recognition before OLL) is a technique which allows to anticipate the PLL type before OLL."


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## Ltsurge (Aug 12, 2011)

Is it just me or is Jorghi going on about really complicated stuff that I just don't get?


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## Sa967St (Aug 12, 2011)

Learning all this to spend a few extra seconds on OLL in order to save less than a second on PLL doesn't make sense to me.


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## Hershey (Aug 12, 2011)

Sa967St said:


> Learning all this to spend a few extra seconds on OLL in order to save less than a second on PLL doesn't make sense to me.


 
Jorghi's algs have a really high move count? Yeah, this really isn't worth it.


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## Jorghi (Aug 12, 2011)

Hershey said:


> Jorghi's algs have a really high move count? Yeah, this really isn't worth it.



Yeah but I used Cube Explorer so I can't use any double turns/rotations or anything like the normal OLLs.


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## JyH (Aug 12, 2011)

This is pointless. You're doing extra moves, and in the time that you're doing those extra moves, you could've recognized the PLL already.


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## Jorghi (Aug 12, 2011)

The 2 and 3 G algorithms have high movecount. Other than that its only about 3-4 moves extra than the original algorithms(Not using double turns/slice turns).

For example if you made the normal headlights OLL 2G <R,U> then it would be this optimally

U' R' U R' U' R' U R U R' U2 R U2 R U' R (16f*)


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## JyH (Aug 12, 2011)

Jorghi said:


> The 2 and 3 G algorithms have high movecount. Other than that its only about 3-4 moves extra than the original algorithms(Not using double turns/slice turns).
> 
> For example if you made the normal headlights OLL 2G <R,U> then it would be this optimally
> 
> U' R' U R' U' R' U R U R' U2 R U2 R U' R (16f*)


 
Yes, but those optimal algorithms are not really fingertrick friendly, and would be performed much slower than the usual algorithm that someone uses.


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## Jostle (Aug 12, 2011)

Ugh...
You'd still have to spend time recognizing the PLL, possibly more time since it would be confusing with flipped pieces everywhere + longer algs.

Are you trolling? No, really, I want to know.


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## Jorghi (Aug 12, 2011)

JyH said:


> Yes, but those optimal algorithms are not really fingertrick friendly, and would be performed much slower than the usual algorithm that someone uses.


 
I blame Cube Explorer for that 



Jostle said:


> Ugh...
> You'd still have to spend time recognizing the PLL, possibly more time since it would be confusing *with flipped pieces everywhere *+ longer algs.
> 
> Are you trolling? No, really, I want to know.


 
How are pieces going to be flipped everywhere? The algs are not much longer at all, 3-4 moves. And I used cube explorer and didn't look for finger trick algorithms so you can't really say anything unless you check yourself.
Edit:Lol haha, I didn't think about full OLL. I use 2 look OLL with Edge orientation.

But Dot cases and edge orientated cases would be the easiest ones to predict PLL.


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## tozies24 (Aug 12, 2011)

Why don't you just learn COLL if you already get the edges oriented after you finish your F2L? That would result in a very easy PLLs (z, h, or u perms) and then you wouldn't have to worry about all the other stupid PLLs like the g's, n's, etc.


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## Jostle (Aug 12, 2011)

Ok, so go away, find good algs, practice it and become good at it, determine if it's good or not, THEN come back to me.
I'm saying, that you still have to recognize PLL either way, and it's probably harder when the pieces aren't oriented. So why spend more time recognizing PLL only so you could use bad algs? It makes no sense.


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## JyH (Aug 12, 2011)

Jostle said:


> Ok, so go away, find good algs, practice it and become good at it, determine if it's good or not, THEN come back to me.
> I'm saying, that you still have to recognize PLL either way, and it's probably harder when the pieces aren't oriented. So why spend more time recognizing PLL only so you could use bad algs? It makes no sense.


 
I completely agree. Recognizing PLL at OLL would take more time than just recognizing the PLL itself, and would be slower.


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## jiggy (Aug 12, 2011)

Didn't Kir do something like this at one point and call it "Pure OLL"? I can't for the life of me find it...


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## 5BLD (Aug 12, 2011)

Eh? You'd rather orient edges first and do COLL,
Or, for me, I do CLLELL, and CLL is recognised during F2L... Then ELL I can at least predict orientation.
I find this easier to recognise than OLLPLL.


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## chrissyD (Aug 12, 2011)

i do this

find the oll as fast as i can - execute oll as fast as i can - find pll as fast as i can - execute pll as fast as i can 

seems like the best way to me. i avg 5-6 seconds for the last layer and it would be faster if my tps didn't suck


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## RCTACameron (Aug 12, 2011)

jiggy said:


> Didn't Kir do something like this at one point and call it "Pure OLL"? I can't for the life of me find it...


 
http://www.speedsolving.com/forum/showthread.php?22862-Random-Cubing-Discussion/page8

But this way, you do PLL, ignoring orientation, then Pure OLL.


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## Kirjava (Aug 12, 2011)

jiggy said:


> Didn't Kir do something like this at one point and call it "Pure OLL"? I can't for the life of me find it...


 
Yeah, generated the algs and didn't post them (except some of the interesting short ones) because they suck. 

PureOLL is not a good step.


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## wontolla (Aug 12, 2011)

If you are going to put some effort in recognizing PLLs, I suggest this:


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## Ranzha (Aug 12, 2011)

Instead of this ghastly beast of a substep, when I get F2L done, for a good number of cases, I recognize not only the OLL, but the CP. By doing so, I can predict what the CP will be after I perform the OLL alg I use for that case, given I know how it affects corner permutation.


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## sa11297 (Aug 12, 2011)

chrissyD said:


> i do this
> 
> find the oll as fast as i can - execute oll as fast as i can - find pll as fast as i can - execute pll as fast as i can
> 
> seems like the best way to me. i avg 5-6 seconds for the last layer and it would be faster if my tps didn't suck


 
i am the same way. i just do everything normal and it takes 5-6 seconds.


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## Talon2461 (Aug 12, 2011)

My opinion probably doesn't seem like much, but it seems that taking a lot of time to learn how to recognize PLL during the OLL seems like time you could spend on trying to do other things to improve on your time. I would say that just doing it normally produces the fastest results for (probably) most cubers.


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## jiggy (Aug 12, 2011)

RCTACameron said:


> http://www.speedsolving.com/forum/showthread.php?22862-Random-Cubing-Discussion/page8
> 
> But this way, you do PLL, ignoring orientation, then Pure OLL.


 
Ah, good find!



Kirjava said:


> Yeah, generated the algs and didn't post them (except some of the interesting short ones) because they suck.
> 
> PureOLL is not a good step.


Fair, but I still thought it was an interesting idea. Ideas don't always have to have a practical application...that would be boring!


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## MaeLSTRoM (Aug 14, 2011)

Jorghi said:


> The 2 and 3 G algorithms have high movecount. Other than that its only about 3-4 moves extra than the original algorithms(Not using double turns/slice turns).
> 
> For example if you made the normal headlights OLL 2G <R,U> then it would be this optimally
> 
> U' R' U R' U' R' U R U R' U2 R U2 R U' R (16f*)


 
Woah, wait a minute. For headlights an Optimal Pure corner rotation alg is:
L' U2 L U L' U L R U2 R' U' R U' R (14f*)
Its less moves and more finger trick friendly than yours and <RUL> can still be very fast.


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## irontwig (Aug 14, 2011)

Ranzha V. Emodrach said:


> Instead of this ghastly beast of a substep, when I get F2L done, for a good number of cases, I recognize not only the OLL, but the CP. By doing so, I can predict what the CP will be after I perform the OLL alg I use for that case, given I know how it affects corner permutation.


 
+1 And this is really easy because many OLLs solve the same CLL case.


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## JLarsen (Aug 28, 2011)

irontwig said:


> +1 And this is really easy because many OLLs solve the same CLL case.


 +1

Knowing how each OLL affects EVERY piece may not be worth it but CP? Definitely. Given your times are even fast enough to start worrying about optimizing your last layer that is.


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## jms_gears1 (Aug 28, 2011)

Sn3kyPandaMan said:


> +1
> 
> Knowing how each OLL affects EVERY piece may not be worth it but CP? Definitely. Given your times are even fast enough to start worrying about optimizing your last layer that is.


 +1

And you dont even really need to know how they effect the CP. You only need to learn to recognize one case, because theres only one CP for every OLL alg that will lead to a corners opp swap


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## StachuK1992 (Aug 28, 2011)

Just make your OLL algs all RUr and you're good to always know CP.


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