# Blindfold Method



## Michael_Wee (Sep 29, 2008)

This is just a general poll to find out what the majority of the people on this forums use for blindfold cubing


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## Ville Seppänen (Sep 29, 2008)

http://www.speedsolving.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5847

I voted others because you didn't put freestyle as an option. So yeah I use freestyle.


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## joey (Sep 29, 2008)

I'm pretty sure we had this recently, and I didn't like it then either.


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## blah (Sep 29, 2008)

Dude you gotta be kidding me. I don't know _how many times_ I've seen such polls


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## Lucas Garron (Sep 29, 2008)

If you're going to mention TuRBo, at least spell it correctly.


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## cmhardw (Sep 29, 2008)

Just a thought, but for those who don't like M2/R2 combination, and instead do M2/classic Pochmann, why not do M2/U2 combination? For those who haven't seen U2 before, it would basically be the same as the big cube U2 method for x-centers of a 5x5x5, only done on corners instead.

If you like the simplicity of M2, why not also go for the simplicity of U2? Plus I can before the algorithm U2 much faster than any PLL algorithm haha, and the setups would, for the most part, be of comparable length as the setups for classic Pochmann. Plus the "shoot to the side effect pieces" algs would be relatively easy "drop and catch" 9 mover kinds of 3 cycles in most cases.

Just a thought, maybe it's been brought up before and I just had not read it here yet.

Chris


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## Stefan (Sep 29, 2008)

Is that U2 method just the R2 method mirrored or something different?


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## cmhardw (Sep 29, 2008)

StefanPochmann said:


> Is that U2 method just the R2 method mirrored or something different?



Haha ok now I feel completely dumb. I was viewing the U2 method as having buffer UBL (U sticker of UBL piece) shooting to UFR. For R2 I was envisioning URB as buffer shooting to DRF. This is no different, but for some reason I didn't equate them in my mind lol.

Maybe I should picture the R2 method differently to help me visualize it. I'm thinking of RBU buffer shooting to RFD. I know it's the same thing, but I think it would help me visualize it.

Chris


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## joey (Sep 29, 2008)

You can also do U2 edges.


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## shelley (Sep 29, 2008)

I see my method of choice is slowly going out of fashion; I'm the only one to vote 3OP in this poll so far.


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## cmhardw (Sep 29, 2008)

joey said:


> You can also do U2 edges.



What about a U2 edges + corners combo at the same time? Your corner buffer is UBL shooting to UFR. Your edge buffer is UL shooting to UR. Setup the target edge to UR using slice moves and conjugate maneuvers that don't affect corners. Then setup the target corner to UFR. Then do U2, and undo all the setups.

I don't know, maybe even this has been thought of before. The only hard case I see is when you have to shoot to a "side effect" piece in one or both of corners or edges. This could be done with commutators or freestyle though.

I feel I'm just babbling haha, I'm sure something like this has been discussed before.

Chris


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## joey (Sep 29, 2008)

Nah, we both know it's ridiculous and not really worth it.

I remember you discussing 4-cycle 2x2 with U/U2 turns, that was a good thread 

Just as a side note, I am changing the way I do freestyle, to proper freestyle and not to have this Classic Pochmann cloud above me; influencing me.


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## Stefan (Sep 29, 2008)

cmhardw said:


> What about a U2 edges + corners combo at the same time? Your corner buffer is UBL shooting to UFR. Your edge buffer is UL shooting to UR. Setup the target edge to UR using slice moves and conjugate maneuvers that don't affect corners. Then setup the target corner to UFR. Then do U2, and undo all the setups.


Terrible, I think. Basically all you save is a U2 turn every other step. It would make more sense if the swap part in the middle of each step were a longer pure swap alg (and indeed that has been suggested before) so you'd save a long alg every other step. But here you save very little and it just makes things more complicated.


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## cmhardw (Sep 29, 2008)

joey said:


> Nah, we both know it's ridiculous and not really worth it.



Has anybody ever tested it though?

Here is how I envision the method. UBL and UL are buffers, UFR and UR are targets. Scramble in your solved orientation.

B L' D U2 L2 D2 B' F' D2 B' F U' L R2 U' L R' B2 F R' B2 L R B2 D2

1) setup edge: D2 S D2 S' ; setup corner: D R' D' R
Now do U2
Undo with: R' D R D' S D2 S' D2

2) setup edge: E2 R' E R ; setup corner: F D F' D' F D F'
now do U2
Undo with: F D' F' D F D' F' R' E' R E2

3) Notice now that the buffer shoots to a side effect piece, to UB. We've done 2 algs so far, so the U layer is solved, not off by a turn. I would probably freestyle UL->UB->UR with a U perm.

After the U perm setup edge: E' R' E R ; setup corner: D' F D F'
now do U2
undo with: F D' F' D R' E' R E

4) the buffer solved, so kick it out. Will shoot to FL
setup edge: R E2 R' ; setup corner: R' D2 R
now do U2
undo with: R' D2 R2 E2 R'

5) edge doesn't need a setup ; corner needs to shoot to a side effect piece. We've done an even number of algs, so the U layer is solved. I would probably freestyle a commutator and do UBL->RFU->UFR which is just a BH "A9" alg using : B2 R2 B' L2 B R2 B' L2 B'

After this the corner doesn't need a setup.

Now do U2
no setups to undo

6) edge shoots to a side effect piece, so use a U perm. We've done an odd number of U2's so the U layer is off by 2. So use UL->UB->UR

After that the edge needs no setup. Corner is a side effect piece, and the U layer is off by 2. So do a commutator. Use UBL->RFU->UFR. use the same alg as above or B2 R2 B' L2 B R2 B' L2 B'

7) Neither the edge nor corner need setups, so do U2

8) Ok so now corners are solved before edges, which should happen very often since there are more edges than corners. I guess from this point just use M2 (or for consistency U2) to finish the cube, but just on edges.

Setup edge: R' E R
do U2
undo setup: R' E' R

9) buffer is solved so kick out. I'll kick to BL.
setup edge: R' E2 R
do U2
undo setup: R' E2 R

10) setup edge: S D' S'
do U2
undo setup: S D S'

11) setup edge: R E' R'
do U2
undo setup: R E R'

This leaves us to orient the buffer with the permuted but disoriented edge at DR. I would just use an alg to orient this, but if you wanted to use U2 you could do that too.

----

That's how I see the method. My impressions doing this sighted solve are that setups can be hard, but just have a system to it. Also using those commutators for shooting to side effect pieces will always use either U perms or 9 move commutators for the edges and A9's for the corners (this includes the possibility to do an A perm, which coincidentally we call an "A9"), and both IMO are relatively easy cases.

Anybody have any thoughts? Does this method might have some promise? Or maybe not?

Chris


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## Lucas Garron (Sep 29, 2008)

shelley said:


> I see my method of choice is slowly going out of fashion; I'm the only one to vote 3OP in this poll so far.


Aw, I actually voted just so you don't have to be alone.

Just be happy that you're not still 3OP L2R2 visual like me. Even dinosaurs like Macky don't use that anymore...


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## fanwuq (Sep 29, 2008)

cmhardw said:


> StefanPochmann said:
> 
> 
> > Is that U2 method just the R2 method mirrored or something different?
> ...



That's what I was asking about in my thread a few days ago. So you have this list of U2 algs?


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## waffle=ijm (Sep 29, 2008)

The term "old pochmann" is obsolete. It is now referred to as classic pochmann. All those who use the term "old pochmann" is entitled a punch to the face.

anyway freestyle corners. classic pochmann or m2 for edges (whichever I feel like doing during that solve)


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## cmhardw (Sep 30, 2008)

fanwuq said:


> That's what I was asking about in my thread a few days ago. So you have this list of U2 algs?



I don't, but if you give me a list of any algs you need or are looking for I can certainly help find them. Are you looking more for cycles that shoot to the "side effect" pieces when necessary? Or for a way to handle all the setup turns to the target spot? Or both?

Chris


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## fanwuq (Sep 30, 2008)

buffer UBL (U sticker of UBL piece) shooting to UFR using the exact same idea as basic R2 for corners.
I'm not exactly sure how to discribe which ones I want, I guess lets just start with the cases in U layer.
Thanks!

Edit: Well, I guess A perm is one and some of the corner cycles used in TuRBo. Any exceptions?


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## cmhardw (Sep 30, 2008)

fanwuq said:


> buffer UBL (U sticker of UBL piece) shooting to UFR using the exact same idea as basic R2 for corners.
> I'm not exactly sure how to discribe which ones I want, I guess lets just start with the cases in U layer.
> Thanks!



setups or algs from UBL shooting to:

DLB: R' D' R F D F'
LBD: F D2 F'
BDL: R' D2 R

DBR: F D2 F' R' D' R
RDB: D' F D F'
BRD: F D' F'

DFL: R' D2 R F D F'
FLD: D R' D' R
LDF: R' D R

DRF: R2 D' R2 D R2
RFD: R' D' R
FDR: F D F'

ULF: alg: U2 R2 B2 R F R' B2 R F' R
LFU: alg: U2 F2 L2 F' R2 F L2 F' R2 F'
FUL: alg: R' F2 R' B2 R F2 R' B2 R2 U2

UFR: none
FRU: R' D R F D F'
RUF: F D' F' R' D' R

URB: alg: U2 L' B L' F2 L B' L' F2 L2
RBU: alg: F R2 F L2 F' R2 F L2 F2 U2
BUR: alg: U2 R2 B2 R F2 R' B2 R F2 R

I used the algs I would use from BH, but if you're more comfortable with Stefan's algs you can transpose them. To transpose his algs to go from your buffer UBL to UFR cycle the face turns listed as follows:
(R<->U) (D<->L) (F<->B)

meaning interchange R's and U's. Interchange D's and L's and interchange F's and B's. Do not change turn directions, just interchange the faces. So for example, taking this directly from Stefan's page the alg:

R' U R2 U' R' F' R U R2 U' R' F would become

U' R U2 R' U' B' U R U2 R' U' B

So if you don't like my algs, that's how to transpose Stefan's algs to your particular buffer and orientation.

Hope this helps,
Chris


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## fanwuq (Sep 30, 2008)

cmhardw said:


> fanwuq said:
> 
> 
> > buffer UBL (U sticker of UBL piece) shooting to UFR using the exact same idea as basic R2 for corners.
> ...



Thank you so much! This is exactly what I'm looking for!
I found these easy ones, then got stuck:
LBD: F D2 F'
BDL: R' D2 R
RDB: D' F D F'
FLD: D R' D' R
LDF: R' D R
RFD: R' D' R
FDR: F D F'


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## *LukeMayn* (Oct 7, 2008)

3 cycle....
Imma newb  *cries*


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## ThePizzaGuy92 (Oct 7, 2008)

is it me or is classic pochmann not on the list? i chose "other" haha


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## fanwuq (Oct 7, 2008)

I'm now doing freestyle corners, haha.
By freestyle, I mean random mixture of Classic Pochmann, A perm without restrictions, and some TuRBo commutators.


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## SparkZer00 (Oct 19, 2008)

freestyle everything, i use commutators and TuRBo mostly, just whatever floats my boat for specific cases to make everyhting easier


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## MistArts (Oct 28, 2008)

M2+Commutators corners

Using visual memo right now.


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## wryyl (Oct 29, 2008)

I use 3OP corners and M2 for edges. Thing about my solving is that I orient before using M2, so I effectively cut down the number of edge variables to 12. Haven't gotten around to focusing on a letter scheme because of my exams, but eventually I'll develop one. I've no problem subbing 2 right now though.


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## ShadenSmith (Oct 30, 2008)

wryyl said:


> I use 3OP corners and M2 for edges. Thing about my solving is that I orient before using M2, so I effectively cut down the number of edge variables to 12. Haven't gotten around to focusing on a letter scheme because of my exams, but eventually I'll develop one. I've no problem subbing 2 right now though.




You're wasting away the beauty of M2 by pre-orienting.


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## wryyl (Oct 30, 2008)

True, but it's still a lot more efficient (for me) than 3OP edges. I tried getting used to letters, but my exams got in the way.


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