# breaking into new cycles



## badmephisto (Feb 5, 2008)

i'm trying to get into BLD again (probably my 4th attempt now). It's not because I can't do it, I'm just too lazy to memorize and make up a system to remember the edges and memorize It,.... anyway:

I use Pochmann YT method because it does not require me to learn anything new and it's really easy to understand. My biggest problem in memorization is breaking into new cycles. When I "detect" that I have a good edge in my buffer position, I never know which edges are already filled in and which aren't. So I go over my memorized sequence and take a whole minute to figure out a place to store that edge. Now if the next cycle is of small length and i get the edge AGAIN, I have to... again, figure out where to store it. It seems it's taking me too long and I get it wrong many times too. 

I guess my question is... how do you guys handle this?


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## Leo (Feb 5, 2008)

Dont people usually memorize this in their cycle? like memorize, as youre memorizing you notice youll need to break into a new cycle and memorize a piece you know wont be solved yet to switch it with and continue your cycle.


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## Ville Seppänen (Feb 5, 2008)

well, I dont use Pochmann-method but I think the way you should deal with this is: let's say you have 2 edge cycles (1>5>9>2>6)(3>4>12>7>11) and 1 is your buffer (atleast in this example). From what I understood, you have no problems getting the first cycle permuted, so let's say you have completed the cycle (1>5>9>2>6). This means that your buffer is a solved piece. So what you have to do now is "shoot" the edge piece number 2 in the buffer area, meaning you swap edges 1 and 2. Then you just keep permuting the 2nd cycle and after you have done this, you know that edge number 1 is in place number 2 and edge number 2 is in place number 1. so then you just swap them if you dont have parity.

I guess that's it, I'm no expert in Pochmann, just wanted you to get a quick reply to your problem.  good luck, you'll get it right


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## Pedro (Feb 5, 2008)

Ville Seppänen said:


> well, I dont use Pochmann-method but I think the way you should deal with this is: let's say you have 2 edge cycles (1>5>9>2>6)(3>4>12>7>11) and 1 is your buffer (atleast in this example). From what I understood, you have no problems getting the first cycle permuted, so let's say you have completed the cycle (1>5>9>2>6). This means that your buffer is a solved piece. So what you have to do now is "shoot" the edge piece number 2 in the buffer area, meaning you swap edges 1 and 2. Then you just keep permuting the 2nd cycle and after you have done this, you know that edge number 1 is in place number 2 and edge number 2 is in place number 1. so then you just swap them if you dont have parity.
> 
> I guess that's it, I'm no expert in Pochmann, just wanted you to get a quick reply to your problem.  good luck, you'll get it right



I think it's better to shoot at 3, which is the first piece of the next cycle...why would you unsolved a piece that's already solved and have to solve it again at the end? 

shooting to 3 would get piece 4 at the buffer, than you can just continue the cycle, and at the end you have to swap 1 and 3


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## Ville Seppänen (Feb 5, 2008)

Man, I screwed up on the cycles, wrote too fast.... I thought that the next cycle in my example started with piece number 2 lol, should read these through before posting... thanks for correcting!


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## alexc (Feb 5, 2008)

What I'm going to do from now on is just memorize every place I need to shoot to. I'm not even going to remeber that I might be in a different cycle. I use M2 and R2 so this is a really nice way to memorize because there is no confusion about when you have to shoot to the opposite.


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## badmephisto (Feb 6, 2008)

... i understand that you just memorize where you shoot it to just as you memorize anything else, that's not the problem... but how do you know where to shoot it to? You must be aware somehow of all the places on the cube that are not solved yet! Then you store that good edge in there, but later on you might pop it out if you have to shoot the edge that actually belongs there in that place... so you pop the good edge out to the buffer again... and you must find another place to store it at... some position you have not solved yet. And you have to do this for each new cycle you break into.

I don't think I got a response to my question yet, maybe I just suck at explaining the problem :s


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## LarsN (Feb 6, 2008)

badmephisto said:


> I don't think I got a response to my question yet, maybe I just suck at explaining the problem :s



You don't need to figure out where to place that good edge when breaking in to a new cycle. You always place it at the beginning of the new cycle, which means that when ever you are finished with the new cycle your good edge will be in the right place again. If there are yet more cycles then you place it at the beginning of the new cycle and so forth...

The only thing you need to remember is to shoot to the beginning of the cycle again like this:

If your cycles are: 1-5-3-8-9 2-10-11 12-4-6
Then you would shoot like this: 1-5-3-8-9-2-10-11-2-12-4-6-12

I hope it helps...


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## Leo (Feb 6, 2008)

You dont need to think about which pieces are unsolved because you memorized which piece that is unsolved that you will be shooting the piece to during memorization, should be no different from any other part of the cycle. And if you notice during memorization that it once agains goes back to the buffer, then memorize another piece that will be unsolved to shoot it to.


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## cmhardw (Feb 6, 2008)

hi badmephisto,

I know exactly what you're talking about, I have a very similar problem on big cubes blindfolded. When memorizing edges for bigger cubes if I have a 22-cycle or a 21-cycle I count my edges during memorization rehearsal and realize that I am short by 2 or 3 edges respectively. I then despair over finding where those other 2 edges are, and I sometimes have to search for 10 seconds or more to find which ones I have yet to cycle to. I have also experienced this same exact thing on 3x3x3, which is what I think is happening to you during some of your solves.

My thinking to solve this problem is to have a "sense" of where you have shot edges to already. For example, on the 4x4x4 of 5x5x5 wings if I have a 22-cycle and the other 2 edges are not solved, then I have to find which two wings are switched. I go back over my memorization (not the images, but just the visual "feel" of the memorization) and see if there is one area of the cube I didn't seem to cycle to as much. I try to think of the cube in the areas as U layer, u and d layers, and D layer. If I feel as if I've cycled to the U and D layer often then I will first scan the u and d layers to find my 2 wings. Same thing for the vice versa scenario.

For the 3x3x3 if I feel as if I have cycled a lot to the U and D faces, I first scan in the E layer. If I feel I have cycled to the U and E layers a lot I scan the D layer. Also, trace cycles in your mind without memorizing them. If you have already memorized a 7 cycle of 3x3x3 edges, then find a random piece and *quickly* trace that cycle to completion in your head without memorizing. One of two things will happen, at some point this cycle will seem familiar (i.e. you've already memorized it) or it will seem complete new, in which case start over and actually start memorizing it.

In short, you realize you have to break into a new cycle so:
1) Have a sense of where you have cycled to already. Mostly U and E layers? Mostly E and D layers? Mostly U and D layers?

2a) Count how many edges you have cycled to so far. This does two things, it rehearses your memory and 2 it tells you exactly how many unsolved edges to look for.

2b) Quickly scan the cube and count how many edges are in the solved location, even if they are oriented incorrectly. Add this to the number for 2a to know how many edges remain unsolved.

3) Trace cycles out quickly without memorizing them if you believe you have found a new cycle but aren't sure. If things start to look familiar you have already memorized this cycle. If it seems new, then go back to the start of where you first broke into this trial cycle and start actually memorizing it.

That is what I do for bigger cubes if I am stuck trying to find only 2-3 wings that are part of a cycle and I can't for the life of me find where they are.

Hope this helps,
Chris


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## Stefan (Feb 6, 2008)

People who don't know what they're talking about should just not talk. Congrats to Chris for being the first to understand the question.

In my own experience, it gets easier after a while to just have a "feeling" for what pieces you've covered already. At least with the 3x3, the larger cubes are a different story. So practice will help, and getting faster will help more, thanks to short term memory getting more influence. Also, like Chris said, if you really need to follow a cycle again, do it visually without memo. Just following a cycle must not take a minute. One thing I've done sometimes is to visually follow the cycles quickly *before* memorization, in order to know what to expect and to find the distinct cycles and misoriented pieces right away.


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## LarsN (Feb 6, 2008)

StefanPochmann said:


> People who don't know what they're talking about ...



That's a broad term...


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## Stefan (Feb 6, 2008)

Clarification: I meant the answers. The question was fairly clear to me. Actually already yesterday, I saw it after the first two answers and decided not to answer and instead see how many more wrong ones would follow.


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## Pedro (Feb 6, 2008)

I just quoted the guy to "correct" what he said...I'm no expert in Pochmann methods, but I can quickly see which edges I didn't use yet...

I do that a lot on 3-cycles method...if I have my UF solved after some edges, I just search for the next unused piece, following UL, UB, UR, FL, BL, BR...


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## LarsN (Feb 6, 2008)

Well, even after reading Chris post, which is very detailed and helpful, I still read the question as a problem of execution and not memo as such, but that might just be me...

I just hope Badmephisto got the help he needed.


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## Dene (Feb 6, 2008)

I'm gonna have my input here even if the question has been sufficiently answered (of which I am not sure). Firstly, I would strongly recommend using a familiar room for memorising edges. Using roman rooms for edges (my bedroom) I solved a cube blindfolded succesfully on my third ever attempt, and that was basically after using the first two solves to decide on the images I would use (these of course have adapted by now). The way I see it, just imagine your cube is the size of your room (kind of, if that's possible) and think where each edge would be in the room. And use those places as images. Chances are, the U edges will be on the ceiling. This isn't a problem, as one of them doesn't need an image (buffer position), and if you can do it like I do, then you will be able to imagine the other 3 locations as kind of buffer positions too.

How I do this is: When memorising, I go through the sequence (normally 3 times over, it takes a while at first but you get faster very quickly) and every time I get back to the buffer position (UR) I ignore that part, and if I haven't already gone to one of the other U positions, I will "break into the new cycle" from there. These are the easiest ones as they can be done with the T, or either of the J perms. So technically you have broken into a new cycle, but you don't memorise it like that, instead you just have it continuing in a steady flow.

Ok I haven't explained that well so I will try again. What I mean is, break into the new cycle using one of the other 3 U stickers if they haven't already been placed. When you are visualising them, you can imagine, kind of going up there, and thinking "where should I go to next". Of course you will eventually get back to that position, and may need to beak into a new cycle, so just do again from another position. Once you have the images down, this will all become instinctive.

Yet again, I strongly recommend using images of a very familiar room with lot's of stuff in it. Use a different image for, say, DF than FD. Make up an image if there is nothing satisfactory in your bedroom at the location (this is what I did for FL/LF). When memorising, really try to visualise the images as you go through the cycle. Take your time. When executing it should be a continuous flow if possible, you should already know where you are going next if you have memorised the images correctly.

This is more of an alternative to your problem than a solution though...

I'm finding, that now I've done quite a few solves BLD, I don't need to visualise the images nearly as much, so that's also something to look forward to. I've been blindsolving for only 3 weeks and already I sub-5 average using Mr. Pochmann's brilliant method and roman rooms.

Good luck!

EDIT: I should say this too. You have a problem with forgetting if you have been somewhere, and this is where images are really useful. You just think, have I been to that image, and as Chris kind of explained, you should have a feeling of whether you have been there or not.


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## tim (Feb 6, 2008)

Dene said:


> I'm gonna have my input here even if the question has been sufficiently answered (of which I am not sure). Firstly, I would strongly recommend using a familiar room for memorising edges.



That's not necassary, you could even create a fictive room.


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## Dene (Feb 6, 2008)

tim said:


> Dene said:
> 
> 
> > I'm gonna have my input here even if the question has been sufficiently answered (of which I am not sure). Firstly, I would strongly recommend using a familiar room for memorising edges.
> ...



I think, for doing BLD for the first time, having to make up a room would be as pointless as not even using a room. Why not instead just imagine images on the actual cube?
The idea is that you are using something that is extremely familiar to take a load off your brain.


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## badmephisto (Feb 7, 2008)

Thank you guys for trying to answer my question, and in particular big thanks to Chris and Stefan for answering the question I was asking  ...and I think Dene too, but he kind of packaged in some more tips which I appreciate too so thanks  I'll try to use the rooms thing, it seems like it should work.

i still think my description could probably have been a little better, which is probably what lead to all the confusion.
anyway thanks!


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## tim (Feb 7, 2008)

Dene said:


> tim said:
> 
> 
> > Dene said:
> ...



No, that's a nice exercise for your imagination. Real rooms are fictive too, because they just exist in your mind and you have to imagine them first. There's really no difference between real and ficitve rooms.


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## Dene (Feb 7, 2008)

But, as I said, thinking up a completely fictional room is just going to be an extra effort that you don't want when you are trying to BLD solve for the first ever time. To make things as easy as possible, use somewhere where all the images are pre-made for you. When you want to do multi-BLD, then maybe make up a fictioinal room for convenience, although it would probably be best to to only introduce one new room at a time, over quite a period of time, as making up multiple rooms at once will just mesh and screw you up...

When you say, "real rooms are fictive too", what exactly are you saying, do you mean the image that you have in your mind of that room, or the actual physical room isn't real?


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## badmephisto (Feb 7, 2008)

i'm not sure how the room approach will help me though... Pochamnn's YT method doesn't orient the pieces, so in addition to having a position to shoot a piece to, you must, in addition, memorize the orientation of that piece. So... each position in my room would have to have two objects, one for flipped and unflipped orientation. Still doable, but maybe not as nice... even worse with corners :s


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## Dene (Feb 7, 2008)

I don't bother with images for corners, I tried at first but it didn't suit me. As for edges, you are correct. I have a total of 18 images. I don't have a proper image for UL or UF, although I try to imagine myself looking into the room from above. as for LU and FU, I just have to remember it, but it isn't particularly strenuous. UR/RU doesn't need an image.


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## tim (Feb 7, 2008)

Dene said:


> To make things as easy as possible, use somewhere where all the images are pre-made for you


Why do you call them "images"? These are just locations within your room, where you put your images you've made up for the cube.



Dene said:


> When you say, "real rooms are fictive too", what exactly are you saying, do you mean the image that you have in your mind of that room, or the actual physical room isn't real?



Have you ever tried to use roman rooms? Your locations will change over time and become fictive and maybe more detailed than your actual room. So an actual room is just a building plan for your room in your head.



badmephisto said:


> So... each position in my room would have to have two objects, one for flipped and unflipped orientation. Still doable, but maybe not as nice... even worse with corners :s


Uhm, no. Memorize the permutation of the stickers and not the actual pieces + orientation.


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## Mike Hughey (Feb 7, 2008)

tim said:


> badmephisto said:
> 
> 
> > So... each position in my room would have to have two objects, one for flipped and unflipped orientation. Still doable, but maybe not as nice... even worse with corners :s
> ...



That's a nice goal, but it is challenging because it involves changing your method of solving. I'm struggling with this now. It's still faster and easier even with the bad memorization for me to solve using Macky's regular 3-cycle method with permutation and orientation for multi-BLD than it is to do some non-orient-first method, but the non-orient-first methods are catching up. For multi-BLD I can average about 6 or 7 minutes per cube with Macky's method, and about 8 minutes per cube using M2 and commutators for corners. Unfortunately, I'm also less accurate with M2 and commutators - probably less than 50% - so that means Macky's method is still best for me for multi-BLD. But I know that if I want to ever get sub-5 per cube, I'm going to have to do as you suggest, which is why I'm working on the new approach to solving. But it takes time...

To do Macky's method with Roman Rooms for multi-BLD, I memorize edge permutation in one or a few locations, then corner permutation in one or a few locations, then edge orientation as a single 3-digit hex number converted into images at one location, then corner orientation as a single 4-digit hex number converted into images at one location. And I use one room per cube. I only have 4 rooms prepared, and I'm going to try 5 this week, so I'm going to construct another room sometime in the next couple of days. So far, I've always done as Dene suggests and used a real room; he's right that it's a little less work to construct a room from one you know than it is to make one up, but I agree with Tim that it doesn't really make much difference, since you still have to stick it in your head either way.


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## Dene (Feb 7, 2008)

tim said:


> Why do you call them "images"? These are just locations within your room, where you put your images you've made up for the cube.



Sorry, what I mean is that by using a room that you are familiar with you will already have a clear idea in your head of this room. I am using the word images, instead of objects, as in your head these are not physical items.



tim said:


> Have you ever tried to use roman rooms? Your locations will change over time and become fictive and maybe more detailed than your actual room. So an actual room is just a building plan for your room in your head.



Yes, you are right, but he is trying to do it for the first time! He doesn't want to be spending time adapting the room to perfection for multi-BLD, he just needs something that is strongly familiar to help him secure his memorisation of the cube.


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