# What cubes should be removed from the WCA?



## GAN 356 X (Aug 13, 2019)

Since I've made a thread on what events should be added, and many people thought events should be taken away before new ones were added, I decided to make a poll on it. 2x2-6x6 are not included because most people will agree are challenging yet don't take too long. Megaminx is also excluded largely for the same reason, furthermore because of its unique shape.


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## NeptuneCuber (Aug 13, 2019)

I think 3x3 with feet and clock should be removed because not that many people like them that much. People are also not that serious about those events. Clock is not even a twisty puzzle. OH is like feet but OH makes sense.


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## Astral cubing (Aug 13, 2019)

I personally don’t enjoy Feet but respect those that do I just hate it when I’ve been to more comps with feet than megaminx (which Personally I love megaminx and have been to 6 comps but only 2 had megaminx where feet was held at four of the comps) but I don’t see the point of clock it’s like master magic in that it’s not a twisty puzzle!


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## u Cube (Aug 13, 2019)

megaminx


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## Cubingcubecuber (Aug 13, 2019)

Megaminx, Clock, multibld, feet, 4bld, and 5bld


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## GAN 356 X (Aug 13, 2019)

Astral cubing said:


> I personally don’t enjoy Feet but respect those that do I just hate it when I’ve been to more comps with feet than megaminx (which Personally I love megaminx and have been to 6 comps but only 2 had megaminx where feet was held at four of the comps) but I don’t see the point of clock it’s like master magic in that it’s not a twisty puzzle!


I think solving a cube with your _*feet *_is absolutely weird, no offence to those who like this event

no major manufacturer even makes clocks. as far as I know there's the Lingao one and the Rubiks brand.



Cubingcubecuber said:


> Clock, multibld, feet, 4bld, and 5bld


I think 4bld and 5bld are fine, because I personally I believe they are impressive to watch, although doing it succesfully and quickly is out of reach for most cubers. Clock and feet ought to be removed, but with removing specific events, some specialists in these events will be forced to get better at different events


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## AbsoRuud (Aug 13, 2019)

The argument that Clock isn't a twisty puzzle is completely false.


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## Vim (Aug 13, 2019)

AbsoRuud said:


> The argument that Clock isn't a twisty puzzle is completely false.


Exactly.
One argument could be that Clock isn't interesting enough and doesn't see much development in terms of speedcubing techniques.

Also, feet will be removed at the end of the year.

Honestly, I don't see the point of those threads if it's just to post a list, cast votes, repeat said votes in a post and hardly give arguments about the choices.


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## GAN 356 X (Aug 13, 2019)

Vim said:


> Also, feet will be removed at the end of the year


solving a cube with your feet is pretty weird


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## One Wheel (Aug 13, 2019)

Pyraminx and Skewb are a little weird, and I think it would be cool to add curvy copter. I wouldn’t fight taking out pyraminx, skewb, and possibly click, unless it was taking them out to make room for another event. If we could add another event it should be curvy copter, but only if we can add it on top of the events we already have.

Edit to add: objectively speaking the strongest argument for removal probably goes to 5BLD. Participation is low, and more significantly almost all of the people who are good at 5BLD are good at 4BLD and vice versa. I’m not arguing to remove 5BLD, just that if anything is going to be removed that has the strongest objective argument.


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## Kit Clement (Aug 13, 2019)

GAN 356 X said:


> solving a cube with your feet is pretty weird


solving a cube with only one hand is pretty weird


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## KingCanyon (Aug 13, 2019)

I honestly don't want any WCA events to be removed. Clock is very different from other events, but it isn't really hurting anyone by being an event. If they come up with new hardware for clock that would strengthen the argument that it should stay. I think feet has a stronger argument than clock because there is available hardware that is good for the event and you can become world class relatively easily. Also, feet can give your hands a break and mixes up practice. FMC is such a unique event with all the creative potential you have. It is very intuitive and for sure requires skill. Also, your experience is different in a fun way every time you do a FMC attempt, so that adds to it. Multiblind is a very impressive event that requires a ton of practice and removing would take away from all who had practice. The same could be said for the rest of the events on this list.


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## Dylan Swarts (Aug 13, 2019)

Cubingcubecuber said:


> Clock, multibld, feet, 4bld, and 5bld


oof. removing 75% of blind events. lol


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## Skewber5689 (Aug 13, 2019)

NeptuneCuber said:


> I think 3x3 with feet and clock should be removed because not that many people like them that much. People are also not that serious about those events. Clock is not even a twisty puzzle. OH is like feet but OH makes sense.



I agree


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## One Wheel (Aug 13, 2019)

NeptuneCuber said:


> OH is like feet but OH makes sense.


If you think OH makes sense but Feet doesn’t, I challenge you to do 12 feet solves per day for two weeks, and see what you think then. I suspect you’ll enjoy it more than you think, and if not you will at least come to appreciate a little more why some people enjoy it.


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## Astral cubing (Aug 14, 2019)

I have done feet before and did like it but lost interest due to lack of time to practice ( I have other events too!). So feet should stay, kilominx added, clock removed or kept I don’t care , and megaminx remain unscathed.


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## YouCubing (Aug 14, 2019)

I don't see why we should remove any events. It's not like it's harming anyone or anything to keep them.


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## Filipe Teixeira (Aug 14, 2019)

remove 3x3.

3x3 is silly and shouldn't exist


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## danvie (Aug 14, 2019)

Filipe Teixeira said:


> remove 3x3.
> 
> 3x3 is silly and shouldn't exist



I agree. its only the event that was invented first, and is at nearly every competition, and has nearly all events based off of it. why would we keep it???


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## VIBE_ZT (Aug 14, 2019)

Filipe Teixeira said:


> remove 3x3.
> 
> 3x3 is silly and shouldn't exist


Yeah honestly. Every world record and good solve is based off of luck now. And people have been doing it so long that there are 6 events that involve the 3x3 cube. Its ridiculous, and we need something new. Am I right guys?


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## Hazel (Aug 14, 2019)

None should be removed, they're all interesting in their own way. For example, feet is a really cool mix between TPS and _really_ needing efficiency - almost like a middle ground between 3x3 and FMC. Clock is a twisty puzzle, even if not in the same way as all of the others. A lot of people, myself included, love the event and would be sad to see it go.
I think the WCA should be more focused on adding than removing, in my eyes the more variety the better.


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## Fukuoka Kengo James (Aug 14, 2019)

GAN 356 X said:


> Since I've made a thread on what events should be added, and many people thought events should be taken away before new ones were added, I decided to make a poll on it. 2x2-6x6 are not included because most people will agree are challenging yet don't take too long. Megaminx is also excluded largely for the same reason, furthermore because of its unique shape.


clock


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## Parke187 (Aug 14, 2019)

Why remove anything? It's fine how it is.


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## Iwannaganx (Aug 14, 2019)

I came at this for a community POV. The cubing community needs more followers and if we keep events such as multiblind and FMC these events aren't entertaining. I think we should:
REMOVE: FMC, multiblind, clock, and maybe feet.
ADD: 2BLD, and maybe a shape mod like mirror cube.
I think this would add to the community and help cubing grow as a sport


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## Fukuoka Kengo James (Aug 14, 2019)

Iwannaganx said:


> I came at this for a community POV. The cubing community needs more followers and if we keep events such as multiblind and FMC these events aren't entertaining. I think we should:
> REMOVE: FMC, multiblind, clock, and maybe feet.
> ADD: 2BLD, and maybe a shape mod like mirror cube.
> I think this would add to the community and help cubing grow as a sport


add 2x2OH, 2x2FMC, master pyraminx and kibiminx.


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## Iwannaganx (Aug 14, 2019)

2OH would be cool, but 2FMC encounters the same problem as FMC. It would have to have a time limit of at LEAST twenty minutes, and isn't a very spectator friendly event. Master pyraminx could be a good idea, and I don't know what kibiminx is? Is it kilominx? That could be a good addition...


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## Lapse. (Aug 14, 2019)

Fukuoka Kengo James said:


> add 2x2OH, 2x2FMC


lol what is the point, 2x2's god number is only 11, im sure someone will find a sub-5 solution in less than a week, hell there are 4 move solutions in 2x2 already.


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## Lapse. (Aug 14, 2019)

Iwannaganx said:


> REMOVE: FMC, multiblind


why? those are the most interesting events, although not the most spectator-friendly but there are already a ton of other more interesting spectator-friendly events like 3bld. Don't tell me solving 20 cubes at once is not amazing for a person who has had no exposure to speedcubing. Its still amazing for speedcubers who dont do blind.


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## Iwannaganx (Aug 14, 2019)

Lapse. said:


> why? those are the most interesting events, although not the most spectator-friendly but there are already a ton of other more interesting spectator-friendly events like 3bld. Don't tell me solving 20 cubes at once is not amazing for a person who has had no exposure to speedcubing. Its still amazing for speedcubers who dont do blind.


I guess not removing it is good as it is a cool event I know, but it takes a long time and if we add more events then we may have to cut things out to make times for all the events. If it's off in the back room or something, then it could be ok but then nobody will see it. It's a tough decision.


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## Fukuoka Kengo James (Aug 14, 2019)

Lapse. said:


> why? those are the most interesting events, although not the most spectator-friendly but there are already a ton of other more interesting spectator-friendly events like 3bld. Don't tell me solving 20 cubes at once is not amazing for a person who has had no exposure to speedcubing. Its still amazing for speedcubers who dont do blind.


Not every events have to be spectator-friendly. Bld and FMC should not be removed.


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## Lapse. (Aug 14, 2019)

Iwannaganx said:


> we may have to cut things out to make times for all the events


im not a comp organizer but mbld and fmc both have a 1 hour limit, and the amount of people that actually attempt either of these will definitely not be as much as 3x3, so time issues probably might not be a valid point, but again i have not organized comps so i dont know the logistics of these events.


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## Iwannaganx (Aug 14, 2019)

Yes but 1 hour for 1 person doing FMC could still take the same time as 10 people doing 3x3.
10 people times say 20 seconds per solve times 5 solves each is 1000 seconds. Add about a minute per solve for scrambles, inspection and anything else and you get another 3000 seconds. That's 4000 seconds or 66 mins total. Not exact but a similar time.
Btw I don't think multiblind has a a time limit as people attempt 60 cubes and stuff right? I could be wrong, I haven't gone to a comp and I don't know anything about multiblind, but idk


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## WombatWarrior17 (Aug 14, 2019)

No offense, but some of these are some of the most ridiculous removal suggestions I've seen in a while.


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## One Wheel (Aug 14, 2019)

Iwannaganx said:


> Yes but 1 hour for 1 person doing FMC could still take the same time as 10 people doing 3x3.
> 10 people times say 20 seconds per solve times 5 solves each is 1000 seconds. Add about a minute per solve for scrambles, inspection and anything else and you get another 3000 seconds. That's 4000 seconds or 66 mins total. Not exact but a similar time.
> Btw I don't think multiblind has a a time limit as people attempt 60 cubes and stuff right? I could be wrong, I haven't gone to a comp and I don't know anything about multiblind, but idk


MBLD is 10 minutes per cube, up to an hour total. FMC and MBLD are actually a lot easier to schedule, because unlike other events they take a pretty predictable amount of time. 

As far as spectator friendly, that’s the most ridiculous criteria I’ve heard. Events are for competitors, if people like to watch that’s a nice little bonus.


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## PugCuber (Aug 14, 2019)

Vim said:


> Also, feet will be removed at the end of the year.


Not necessarily. Feet’s Removal hasn’t been 100% fully confirmed yet.


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## DGCubes (Aug 14, 2019)

Iwannaganx said:


> Yes but 1 hour for 1 person doing FMC could still take the same time as 10 people doing 3x3.
> 10 people times say 20 seconds per solve times 5 solves each is 1000 seconds. Add about a minute per solve for scrambles, inspection and anything else and you get another 3000 seconds. That's 4000 seconds or 66 mins total. Not exact but a similar time.
> Btw I don't think multiblind has a a time limit as people attempt 60 cubes and stuff right? I could be wrong, I haven't gone to a comp and I don't know anything about multiblind, but idk



Sure, it takes 1 hour for 1 person to do FMC, but it also takes 1 hour for 100 people to do FMC. Same thing goes for 3x3; multiple people are solving at once, so it's quite possible to fit ~100 competitors in an hour.


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## Loser (Aug 14, 2019)

The options on this poll are quite ridiculous, I'd bet a decent amount that this persons favorite event is megaminx and that's why they didn't include it on there. My top 2 choices to remove aren't even on there as well, 2x2 and 6x6.


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## danvie (Aug 14, 2019)

I have it. 3x3 multiblind with one foot.


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## Bantler (Aug 14, 2019)

Feet are for pervs.


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## Iwannaganx (Aug 14, 2019)

DGCubes said:


> Sure, it takes 1 hour for 1 person to do FMC, but it also takes 1 hour for 100 people to do FMC. Same thing goes for 3x3; multiple people are solving at once, so it's quite possible to fit ~100 competitors in an hour.


Yeah that's true. But the point is are people going to go and watch FMC for an hour or will they watch multiple solves of 3x3 for an hour. Like I said, I'm trying to make it more spectator friendly. If cubing can't get more spectators, we have waaay less chance of growing the community.


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## SM cubing (Aug 14, 2019)

Iwannaganx said:


> Yeah that's true. But the point is are people going to go and watch FMC for an hour or will they watch multiple solves of 3x3 for an hour. Like I said, I'm trying to make it more spectator friendly. If cubing can't get more spectators, we have waaay less chance of growing the community.


Its for the competitors, plus we have enough spectator events, plus fmc is a great time to eat lunch imo


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## DGCubes (Aug 15, 2019)

Iwannaganx said:


> Yeah that's true. But the point is are people going to go and watch FMC for an hour or will they watch multiple solves of 3x3 for an hour. Like I said, I'm trying to make it more spectator friendly. If cubing can't get more spectators, we have waaay less chance of growing the community.



Ah, gotcha. I think variety is really important in cubing. We have plenty of spectator-friendly events (all the short events, OH, Feet, and BigBLD execution come to mind), but it's important to cater to the competitors as well. FMC is essentially a bunch of people sitting down for a test, so I agree that there's probably no way to make it interesting for spectators, but cubing has so much more to offer in the spectator-friendly realm that I think it's fine for some events to not fit that quota.


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## Kit Clement (Aug 15, 2019)

Iwannaganx said:


> Yeah that's true. But the point is are people going to go and watch FMC for an hour or will they watch multiple solves of 3x3 for an hour. Like I said, I'm trying to make it more spectator friendly. If cubing can't get more spectators, we have waaay less chance of growing the community.



Unless it's finals at a major competition or maybe a local comp doing head to head finals, are rounds of 3x3x3 even watchable? To the audience, there's no order at all. People just come up to random stations to do solves, and you can't possibly track how they're all doing, especially with no live leaderboards until after all the solves are done and entered into cubecomps. There's barely anyone watching generic rounds of 3x3x3 except parents/friends of a competitor watching that single competitor solve.

Cubing competitions as they stand are not made for spectators. If that's your goal, you should throw out the entire setup of WCA competitions and start from scratch.


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## Lapse. (Aug 15, 2019)

Kit Clement said:


> Cubing competitions as they stand are not made for spectators.


Amen to that!


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## fun at the joy (Aug 15, 2019)

not really professional to not include all 18 wca events


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## Anthem (Aug 16, 2019)

Cubingcubecuber said:


> Clock, multiple, feet, 4bld, and 5bld


honestly, multi could use some improvements to make it more spectator-friendly but i think 4 and 5 bld are just fine


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## Liam Wadek (Aug 18, 2019)

3x3 should be removed, we see it everywhere and it's gotten old smh


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## Astral cubing (Aug 18, 2019)

Liam Wadek said:


> 3x3 should be removed, we see it everywhere and it's gotten old smh


That’s a bold statement! Prepare for attacks from other users!


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## Astral cubing (Aug 18, 2019)

What if the wca removed clock, feet , big blind , etc for a limited time and replaced it with a new event for a limited time?


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## I Know One Case Of ZBLL (Aug 18, 2019)

Astral cubing said:


> What if the wca removed clock, feet , big blind , etc for a limited time and replaced it with a new event for a limited time?


I don't think adding events for a limited time will encourage people to try them, as getting good in them will require a lot of time and effort, which seems wasted if the event will just be removed in 1-2 years. But on the other hand it would definitely improve the variety of events at comps.


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## One Wheel (Aug 18, 2019)

Liam Wadek said:


> 3x3 should be removed, we see it everywhere and it's gotten old smh


Leave 3x3 to RCSA. WCA can handle other events. I would support that plan.


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## Existential Shrimp (Aug 18, 2019)

None should be removed.


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## aerocube (Aug 21, 2019)

none of them should be removed
some people like clock,some people like feet
plus i have never seen a legitimate reason to remove clock


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## Competition Cuber (Aug 21, 2019)

One Wheel said:


> Leave 3x3 to RCSA. WCA can handle other events. I would support that plan.


No. Would can’t have a world cube association and not have a Rubik’s cube lmao.


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## One Wheel (Aug 21, 2019)

Competition Cuber said:


> No. Would can’t have a world cube association and not have a Rubik’s cube lmao.


3x3 is boring.


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## Astral cubing (Aug 21, 2019)

I know this kinda contradicts my previous statements but let’s just leave everything the same (except for adding events) everyone likes different things For different reasons I enjoy megaminx this event isn’t overly popular it’s just my opinion that I like megaminx. People like feet because it’s different, others don’t like feet because it is different *it is all opinion let’s just leave everything the same so people with differing opinions can all have fun.*


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## Competition Cuber (Aug 21, 2019)

One Wheel said:


> 3x3 is boring.


That’s an opinion. 3x3 is the main event of the WCA, for obvious reasons. In case you don’t know, the original cube was a 3x3.


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## One Wheel (Aug 21, 2019)

Competition Cuber said:


> That’s an opinion. 3x3 is the main event of the WCA, for obvious reasons. In case you don’t know, the original cube was a 3x3.


I am well aware of the status and history of 3x3 in the WCA. Mostly I’m just being contrarian, but the argument that 3x3 is boring and should therefore be eliminated is as strong as any other arguments I’ve seen in this thread. 3x3 does have the distinction that there is (was?) another organization holding competitions, which other WCA events do not have.


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## icarneiro (Aug 21, 2019)

I think 3x3 with feet kinda nasty
so, i dont like to watch, and i dont pratice, but I don't care if it's to remove or not


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## GenTheThief (Aug 23, 2019)

1. I'm really glad that I missed this discussion because of vacation.

2. I'm even more glad that all the 11 year olds on speedsolving don't determine which events are added and removed in the WCA.


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## 2018AMSB02 (Aug 23, 2019)

What about 4 and 5 blind? Im not the biggest fan of 5 bld.


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## WombatWarrior17 (Aug 23, 2019)

PingPongCuber said:


> What about 4 and 5 blind? Im not the biggest fan of 5 bld.


What would be the point of removing them? Sure, not as many people do them, but that's because they take a lot more skill and practice than other events. I'm not a fan of them either, but that doesn't mean they should be removed.


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## CubeBlazer (Aug 23, 2019)

Honestly, no event should be removed. Clock would have been removed if it weren't for Rubik's.


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## GAN 356 X (Aug 23, 2019)

WombatWarrior17 said:


> What would be the point of removing them? Sure, not as many people do them, but that's because they take a lot more skill and practice than other events. I'm not a fan of them either, but that doesn't mean they should be removed.


Personally, I think big blind is extremely impressive to watch, and as is previously stated, should still be an event for those blind specialists like Stanley Chapel etc, even though most cubers do not have time to learn to that extent


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## Fukuoka Kengo James (Aug 29, 2019)

CubeBlazer said:


> Honestly, no event should be removed. Clock would have been removed if it weren't for Rubik's.


Remove clock! Honestly, I don't think a person who can only solve a clock out of all WCA events is a cuber.


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## GAN 356 X (Aug 29, 2019)

Fukuoka Kengo James said:


> Remove clock! Honestly, I don't think a person who can only solve a clock out of all WCA events is a cuber.


Is it hard compares to a 3x3?


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## Fukuoka Kengo James (Aug 29, 2019)

GAN 356 X said:


> Is it hard compares to a 3x3?


Not really.


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## GAN 356 X (Aug 29, 2019)

Fukuoka Kengo James said:


> Not really.


Not that I would ever want to learn it!


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## AbsoRuud (Aug 29, 2019)

Clock isn't hard to learn. It's a simple basic algorithm. I love the event personally and I can't wait to compete in it again.


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## aerocube (Aug 29, 2019)

clock is a decent event,the only problem is clock hardware absolutely sucks and it's on par with magic hardware
i think the issue is that clock is like the harder BLD events,it has a small devoted following


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## AbsoRuud (Aug 29, 2019)

aerocube said:


> clock is a decent event,the only problem is clock hardware absolutely sucks and it's on par with magic hardware
> i think the issue is that clock is like the harder BLD events,it has a small devoted following


I have no problems with my Clock. It turns smoothly, the pins stay in place. It only took me 30 years to break in!


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## aerocube (Aug 29, 2019)

AbsoRuud said:


> I have no problems with my Clock. It turns smoothly, the pins stay in place. It only took me 30 years to break in!


no company seems to sell a factory magnetized clock though,and the lingao clock has mixed reviews


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## AbsoRuud (Aug 29, 2019)

aerocube said:


> no company seems to sell a factory magnetized clock though,and the lingao clock has mixed reviews


My point is that the original Rubik's Clock doesn't need to be magnetised. It's just good.


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## GAN 356 X (Aug 29, 2019)

AbsoRuud said:


> My point is that the original Rubik's Clock doesn't need to be magnetised. It's just good.


If the Rubik's brand version is the best, hardware has a long way to go


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## aerocube (Aug 29, 2019)

AbsoRuud said:


> My point is that the original Rubik's Clock doesn't need to be magnetised. It's just good.


it needs to be magnetised if you're going for wr though,and only 2 companies make clock,neither of which are known for good puzzles
if moyu or qiyi made a clock,we could actually see a huge jump in times just like when the qiyi sqan came out


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## AbsoRuud (Aug 29, 2019)

GAN 356 X said:


> If the Rubik's brand version is the best, hardware has a long way to go


Yeah. there's only two choices and one isn't available for sale anymore. And the Lingao has sucky pins.


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## GAN 356 X (Aug 29, 2019)

AbsoRuud said:


> Yeah. there's only two choices and one isn't available for sale anymore. And the Lingao has sucky pins.


That certainly would help. I can't see companies like Gan making one, but Qiyi and Moyu is a possibility, Qiyi more so


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## Competition Cuber (Aug 29, 2019)

GAN 356 X said:


> That certainly would help. I can't see companies like Gan making one, but Qiyi and Moyu is a possibility, Qiyi more so


Qiyi was rumored to be making one a while back, but I think it got canceled.


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## ImmolatedMarmoset (Aug 29, 2019)

Iwannaganx said:


> I came at this for a community POV. The cubing community needs more followers and if we keep events such as multiblind and FMC these events aren't entertaining. I think we should:
> REMOVE: FMC, multiblind, clock, and maybe feet.
> ADD: 2BLD, and maybe a shape mod like mirror cube.
> I think this would add to the community and help cubing grow as a sport


Why does everything have to be so spectator-friendly? The reason we cube is for the enjoyment. It doesn’t have to be spectator friendly to be fun, and if these events are fun and fit reasonably well into the event list, then they shouldn’t be removed.


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## Parke187 (Aug 29, 2019)

Qiyi and moyu have both said they were making one, but no updates for years.

Gan cubes usually suck but I'll buy a clock if they make one

Clock could also be so much more spectator friendly if the judge would just hold up a thumbs up or thumbs down in comp


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## ImmolatedMarmoset (Aug 29, 2019)

GAN 356 X said:


> If the Rubik's brand version is the best, hardware has a long way to go


You do have to set it up. However, I believe senhuan and guoguan are working on clocks still at the moment. No, I do not\ know when they will come out, but I know that it’s happening.


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## aerocube (Aug 29, 2019)

ImmolatedMarmoset said:


> Why does everything have to be so spectator-friendly? The reason we cube is for the enjoyment. It doesn’t have to be spectator friendly to be fun, and if these events are fun and fit reasonably well into the event list, then they shouldn’t be removed.


all those events apart from FMC are spectator friendly,graham livestreams his MBLD attempts and he gets 50-100 viewers


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## Parke187 (Aug 29, 2019)

ImmolatedMarmoset said:


> You do have to set it up. However, I believe senhuan and guoguan are working on clocks still at the moment. No, I do not\ know when they will come out, but I know that it’s happening.


Senhuan clock is cancelled


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## ImmolatedMarmoset (Aug 29, 2019)

aerocube said:


> all those events apart from FMC are spectator friendly,graham livestreams his MBLD attempts and he gets 50-100 viewers


That doesn’t mean anything. FMC really does round out the event list, and it shouldn’t be r3moved


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## ImmolatedMarmoset (Aug 29, 2019)

Parke187 said:


> Senhuan clock is cancelled


Too bad. Thank you for correcting me.


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## Parke187 (Aug 29, 2019)

ImmolatedMarmoset said:


> Too bad. Thank you for correcting me.


Yeah, Idk about guoguan though


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## aerocube (Aug 29, 2019)

ImmolatedMarmoset said:


> That doesn’t mean anything. FMC really does round out the event list, and it shouldn’t be r3moved


i don't think any of them should be removed,i was just saying they were spectator friendly
i'm not that really into fmc (too complicated for me) but i think it is a good event and should be kept


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## Underwatercuber (Aug 29, 2019)

I would be down for removing 7x7, it doesn’t really add much to cubing, it’s almost the exact same as 6x6 and rankings reflect that pretty well.


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## Underwatercuber (Aug 29, 2019)

Parke187 said:


> Senhuan clock is cancelled


When did MoYu say that lol


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## Cubingcubecuber (Aug 29, 2019)

Parke187 said:


> Gan cubes usually suck


Huh? How?


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## Parke187 (Aug 29, 2019)

Underwatercuber said:


> When did MoYu say that lol


Elijah brown messaged them on fb and they said it was


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## Parke187 (Aug 29, 2019)

Cubingcubecuber said:


> Huh? How?


They just aren't good


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## White KB (Aug 30, 2019)

Why remove pyraminx?!???


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## Hazel (Aug 30, 2019)

Dr. Lube said:


> Does it honestly matter what puzzles the WCA chooses to add or remove? Just because an event is not supported by the WCA it doesn't mean it disappears, right?
> 
> I'm a bit fuzzy on what the upside of an puzzle being recognized as a WCA event is, as opposed to it being part of a private comp'. Can anybody clue me in?


If a puzzle is not an official WCA event, there's very little incentive to practice it. Having a puzzle be a WCA even guarantees that many more people will do the event - sparking innovation, discussion, and motivation. There's been a bunch of Curvy Copter innovation recently because people have realized if they work at it there might be a possibility of it being added as an official WCA event.


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## GAN 356 X (Aug 30, 2019)

Parke187 said:


> Gan cubes usually suck


What? sure they're 2x2's, megaminx and 4x4 are supposed to be substandard for their hefty price tag, but their 3x3's are world class. Please explain why top cubers like Feliks Zemdegs and Max park endorse them.


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## Parke187 (Aug 30, 2019)

GAN 356 X said:


> What? sure they're 2x2's, megaminx and 4x4 are supposed to be substandard for their hefty price tag, but their 3x3's are world class. Please explain why top cubers like Feliks Zemdegs and Max park endorse them.


Just because fast people use them doesn't mean they're good. They get paid to use those cubes, whether they like them or not. Max even uses a valk for OH.
The Gan X is awful. Absolutely terrible. And the SM is worse.
The only decent one is maybe the Gan R IF you magnetize it, but I haven't done it yet.


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## Competition Cuber (Aug 30, 2019)

Parke187 said:


> Just because fast people use them doesn't mean they're good. They get paid to use those cubes, whether they like them or not. Max even uses a valk for OH.
> The Gan X is awful. Absolutely terrible. And the SM is worse.
> The only decent one is maybe the Gan R IF you magnetize it, but I haven't done it yet.


They have a sponsership by gan because they like their cubes, if they didn't like them then they would switch to another brand


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## Parke187 (Aug 30, 2019)

Competition Cuber said:


> They have a sponsership by gan because they like their cubes, if they didn't like them then they would switch to another brand


Or maybe it's because gan pays the big bucks because y'know, they have it


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## Competition Cuber (Aug 30, 2019)

Parke187 said:


> Or maybe it's because gan pays the big bucks because y'know, they have it


SMH I don't think that they do it for the money.


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## Parke187 (Aug 30, 2019)

Competition Cuber said:


> SMH I don't think that they do it for the money.


Maybe not, but you never know
It doesn't make a difference though, the cubes are still bad


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## One Wheel (Aug 30, 2019)

GAN 356 X said:


> Please explain why top cubers like Feliks Zemdegs and Max park endorse them.


The most probable explanation is that Gan 3x3s are actually the best on the market, by a very small margin. The cube might make the difference between a 6 second average and a 5.8 second average, so for people like Feliks and Max that matters. For anybody else it’s just throwing money away. Feliks and Max are highly coveted by cube advertisers, and never have to pay for speedcubes, precisely because people want to use the same cubes used by the best. It’s all marketing.


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## Hazel (Aug 30, 2019)

Dr. Lube said:


> But then there's clock... It doesn't seem to get much love or innovation and it has been a WCA event for a number of years now. I get the impression that to some people it's a joke and this has put me off buying one... and I would kind of like to buy one.
> 
> Similarly, folks seem to be down on Skewb despite it's WCA status and the wealth of hardware available and, as you said, curvy copter is popular despite the dearth of good puzzles and lack of WCA support.
> 
> I just find it puzzling (no pun intended).


A lot of people still very much enjoy Clock, myself included. If it wasn't a WCA event, I doubt anybody would still practice it. The reason there isn't innovation for clock is because well... there's not much to innovate on because it's such a simple puzzle.
As for Skewb, that's because it's one of the events that is down to luck at this point, and with Clock, it doesn't seem like there's anything left to innovate on. 
What I meant by what I said about Curvy Copter is that nobody has really paid it much attention until it becoming an official event became in the realm of possibility. If the WCA directly said something like "we guarantee there is a 0% chance of curvy copter ever becoming an event and that is final", the traction that it's been gaining recently would _very_ quickly die down to none or almost none.


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## CubeBlazer (Sep 5, 2019)

Iwannaganx said:


> I came at this for a community POV. The cubing community needs more followers and if we keep events such as multiblind and FMC these events aren't entertaining. I think we should:
> REMOVE: FMC, multiblind, clock, and maybe feet.
> ADD: 2BLD, and maybe a shape mod like mirror cube.
> I think this would add to the community and help cubing grow as a sport


Eww 2BLD eww "remove FMC/MBLD/Clock/Feet" Don't.


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## GAN 356 X (Sep 5, 2019)

CubeBlazer said:


> Eww 2BLD eww "remove FMC/MBLD/Clock/Feet" Don't.


\2 blind would be pointless. FMC is unique, same with Multiblind. Clock and feet should be though

Mirror cube would be pretty useless, although I think Kilominx and curvy copter should be added


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## Lapse. (Sep 5, 2019)

I think a new puzzle needs to be invented with the goals of speedsolving in mind to really justify adding it to the list. Sounds ridiculous but it shouldn't be too much to ask considering how advanced and creative puzzle designing has become, and how accessible it is. We could potentially even fund research on designing a WCA-worthy puzzle... but i'm just daydreaming.


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## Iwannaganx (Sep 5, 2019)

Lapse. said:


> I think a new puzzle needs to be invented with the goals of speedsolving in mind to really justify adding it to the list. Sounds ridiculous but it shouldn't be too much to ask considering how advanced and creative puzzle designing has become, and how accessible it is. We could potentially even fund research on designing a WCA-worthy puzzle... but i'm just daydreaming.


I would donate! If I had any money...
But I think if this happens we will have a great new puzzle, designed for speedsolving, that could revolutionise cubing forever


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## Artemissimo (Sep 6, 2019)

NeptuneCuber said:


> I think 3x3 with feet and clock should be removed because not that many people like them that much. People are also not that serious about those events. Clock is not even a twisty puzzle. OH is like feet but OH makes sense.


 clock is a puzzle and you can twist it so it's a twisty puzzle


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## AbsoRuud (Sep 6, 2019)

Artemissimo said:


> clock is a puzzle and you can twist it so it's a twisty puzzle


YES!


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## Iwannaganx (Sep 6, 2019)

Artemissimo said:


> clock is a puzzle and you can twist it so it's a twisty puzzle


But in theory doesn't this mean any physical puzzle with moving parts counts as a twisty puzzle? Either way it moves you could use a 'twisting' motion to move it, correct?


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## Fukuoka Kengo James (Sep 6, 2019)

Artemissimo said:


> clock is a puzzle and you can twist it so it's a twisty puzzle


Do you think a person who can only solve the clock out of 18 WCA events is a cuber?


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## kadabrium (Sep 6, 2019)

Whats the precise history behind the fact that both skewb and pyraminx are released and popularized much earlier than jings pyraminx?


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## jakelevine (Sep 6, 2019)

Dr. Lube said:


> Wouldn't the same overly simplistic logic apply to pyraminx and megaminx?


If you can solve mega you can solve a 3x3 and 2x2 at least.


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## Mike Hughey (Sep 6, 2019)

jakelevine said:


> If you can solve mega you can solve a 3x3 and 2x2 at least.


Mostly true, but pyraminx definitely doesn't fit that idea. Plenty of people have been able to solve a pyraminx, but unable to solve any kind of cube. My youngest daughter was one of those for a while; now she can solve a cube in 40 seconds, but she learned how to solve a pyraminx before she learned to solve a 3x3x3. And she learned 2x2x2 after 3x3x3.


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## Artemissimo (Sep 6, 2019)

well h


Fukuoka Kengo James said:


> Do you think a person who can only solve the clock out of 18 WCA events is a cuber?


he cant solve a CUBE then so no. also you might say that one who can solve mega isn't a cuber but he is cuz if u solve mega u can solve 3x3


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## Artemissimo (Sep 6, 2019)

Iwannaganx said:


> But in theory doesn't this mean any physical puzzle with moving parts counts as a twisty puzzle? Either way it moves you could use a 'twisting' motion to move it, correct?


give me an example, then we talk


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## Parke187 (Sep 6, 2019)

GAN 356 X said:


> \2 blind would be pointless. FMC is unique, same with Multiblind. Clock and feet should be though
> 
> Mirror cube would be pretty useless, although I think Kilominx and curvy copter should be added


Imagine thimaking clock should be removed when you haven't even tried it lmfao


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## Reizii_ (Oct 9, 2019)

Parke187 said:


> Imagine thimaking clock should be removed when you haven't even tried it lmfao


This. Don't voice an opinion for something you have no experiences with.

Anyway, I don't think any of them should be removed. Everything is fine as is, if you don't like an event just don't do it.


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## GAN 356 X (Oct 9, 2019)

kadabrium said:


> Whats the precise history behind the fact that both skewb and pyraminx are released and popularized much earlier than jings pyraminx?


Um, what even is Jings Pyraminx?


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## Hazel (Oct 10, 2019)

GAN 356 X said:


> Um, what even is Jings Pyraminx?


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## GAN 356 X (Oct 11, 2019)

Aerma said:


>


OK... Kinda looks like a mastermorphix that was born without a limb lol


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## GAN 356 X (Oct 11, 2019)

Parke187 said:


> The Gan X is awful


The community is so divided


GAN 356 X said:


> their 3x3's are world class.


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## Jay Cubes (Dec 9, 2019)

GAN 356 X said:


> solving a cube with your feet is pretty weird



and? many people center their entire career cubing around the event and now it's gone because people feel queasy about it. i dunno, i don't know how else to put it but it seems kinda selfish, no offense. you don't even say WHY its weird. It just is? thick bruh moment


PS: where do you live to have comps that have more feet than megaminx?

I don't believe any of these events should be removed. every event will have its qualities and perks. I think Clock is great, and I am sad to see how many people generally dislike the event. The clock is the only non-Rubiks cube type puzzle in the WCA, and I get it fully. It's not a twisty puzzle. But there are so many solving processes similar to regular Rubik's cube solving.

I believe in the growth of the number of WCA events. and of course, I'm not talking like every on the planet, but enough events that everyone can find a fit for them and love what they do. Many people ask why others practice non-WCA events, and then turn around and snap when the other person says they want the event their practicing to be in the WCA.



Filipe Teixeira said:


> remove 3x3.
> 
> 3x3 is silly and shouldn't exist


 periodt


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## Etotheipi (Dec 9, 2019)

They should remove negative curvy copter, imo.


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## PugCuber (Dec 9, 2019)

GAN 356 X said:


> solving a cube with your feet is pretty weird





Spoiler: <NerdRant>



Honestly, continuing on what iiNaxezi said, there are some people whose main event is feet. However, one thing the WCA did take into account however, and I thank them for, is for those who are disabled and are unable to use their hands, they can use their feet in a 3x3 round. You might know that technically, your hands have more bacteria than your feet. Someone else mentioned this in a similar thread— I don’t remember who. Sorry— and they also mentioned that while grossness can be understandable, general hygiene can’t. I don’t really think the community knows this. Also, it seems like the majority of people who don’t like feet have never even tried it once. So, they’ve just preemptively decided they hate feet. I mean, how would you know if you haven’t even tried it?


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## BenChristman1 (Dec 9, 2019)

Kit Clement said:


> solving a cube with only one hand is pretty weird


Most people would think that solving a cube at all is really weird...


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## One Wheel (Dec 9, 2019)

BenChristman1 said:


> Most people would think that solving a cube at all is really weird...


This is the real answer right here.


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## GAN 356 X (Dec 9, 2019)

PugCuber said:


> Spoiler: <NerdRant>
> 
> 
> 
> Honestly, continuing on what iiNaxezi said, there are some people whose main event is feet. However, one thing the WCA did take into account however, and I thank them for, is for those who are disabled and are unable to use their hands, they can use their feet in a 3x3 round. You might know that technically, your hands have more bacteria than your feet. Someone else mentioned this in a similar thread— I don’t remember who. Sorry— and they also mentioned that while grossness can be understandable, general hygiene can’t. I don’t really think the community knows this. Also, it seems like the majority of people who don’t like feet have never even tried it once. So, they’ve just preemptively decided they hate feet. I mean, how would you know if you haven’t even tried it?


I have tried it and could hardly turn the cube at all. Different people have different opinions, but I can see your point


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## One Wheel (Dec 9, 2019)

GAN 356 X said:


> I have tried it and could hardly turn the cube at all. Different people have different opinions, but I can see your point


Feet is one of those things that takes a little practice, and it seems impossible until you get the hang of it, but then it really isn’t that hard.


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## Shaun Mack (Dec 10, 2019)

lol i just got onto this thread and my one question is why is OH in the poll thing? all the arguments for removing feet dont apply for OH.


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## PugCuber (Dec 10, 2019)

GAN 356 X said:


> I have tried it and could hardly turn the cube at all. Different people have different opinions, but I can see your point


Ok. I can understand that you don’t like it; considering the fact that you *HAVE* actually tried it. It’s the fact that the majority of people who hate feet just preemptively decide they don’t like it before they’ve even tried it. I mean, you don’t know until you give it a go. You know what I’m saying?



Shaun Mack said:


> lol i just got onto this thread and my one question is why is OH in the poll thing? all the arguments for removing feet dont apply for OH.


It’s because the majority of the people who hate feet have just preemptively decided they don’t like it without even trying it, only because it looks, sounds, and seems gross or stupid.


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## Tabe (Dec 11, 2019)

PugCuber said:


> It’s because the majority of the people who hate feet have just preemptively decided they don’t like it without even trying it, only because it looks, sounds, and seems gross or stupid.


Why is that somehow an invalid set of reasons?


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## One Wheel (Dec 11, 2019)

Tabe said:


> Why is that somehow an invalid set of reasons?


Because it’s prejudicial. And inasmuch as any of those reasons have any objective basis they are false.


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## Tabe (Dec 11, 2019)

One Wheel said:


> Because it’s prejudicial. And inasmuch as any of those reasons have any objective basis they are false.


Likes and dislikes are inherently prejudicial. "Seems gross" is a perfectly legitimate reason to not like something or to not try it. People do it ALL THE TIME with food, for example. You can disagree with that assessment but you also can't force someone to NOT think something "seems gross".


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## One Wheel (Dec 11, 2019)

Tabe said:


> Likes and dislikes are inherently prejudicial. "Seems gross" is a perfectly legitimate reason to not like something or to not try it. People do it ALL THE TIME with food, for example. You can disagree with that assessment but you also can't force someone to NOT think something "seems gross".



“Seems gross” is a legitimate reason to not try something, although one is a better person who can overcome that initial distaste and try it anyway. It is absolutely not a legitimate reason to stand in the way of another person enjoying it.


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## Tabe (Dec 11, 2019)

One Wheel said:


> “Seems gross” is a legitimate reason to not try something, although one is a better person who can overcome that initial distaste and try it anyway. It is absolutely not a legitimate reason to stand in the way of another person enjoying it.


I agree but that isn't what I was talking about. See the post I originally responded to.


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## PugCuber (Dec 11, 2019)

Tabe said:


> Why is that somehow an invalid set of reasons?


I mean, how would you know for sure if you haven’t even tried it? That’s what I’m saying.


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## One Wheel (Dec 11, 2019)

Tabe said:


> I agree but that isn't what I was talking about. See the post I originally responded to.


I don’t think anybody has ever said that anybody should be forced to compete in any event, just that you shouldn’t be removing an event or arguing for its removal if you haven’t competed in that event.


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## PugCuber (Dec 11, 2019)

One Wheel said:


> I don’t think anybody has ever said that anybody should be forced to compete in any event, just that you shouldn’t be removing an event or arguing for its removal if you haven’t competed in that event.


I 100% agree. You never know until you give it a go. You might like it after trying it. Honestly, feet’s just a fun event. Last year, it was my least favorite event. Now, it’s my third favorite. The WCA is just getting rid of so much recent progress.


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## ari(a cuber) (Dec 11, 2019)

i agree


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## ari(a cuber) (Dec 11, 2019)

i dont want to offend anybody but clock sucks


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## Etotheipi (Dec 11, 2019)

If I had to remove one I would pick 2x2, but I don't think any should be removed.


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## PugCuber (Dec 11, 2019)

You know, honestly, I know I’ve gotten good at it recently, but I still think clock should be removed rather than feet.


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## ari(a cuber) (Dec 11, 2019)

PugCuber said:


> You know, honestly, I know I’ve gotten good at it recently, but I still think clock should be removed rather than feet.


i agree, clock is too easy. also, what is it!!!????


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## ari(a cuber) (Dec 11, 2019)

Etotheipi said:


> If I had to remove one I would pick 2x2, but I don't think any should be removed.


2x2 is amazing, here are a few reasons why. number one, the event itself is fast and goes by quickly. number 2, its hardware is so great. number 3, almost every 2x2 is good and they are all pretty cheap. number 4, its easy to learn and easy to get fast at


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## Etotheipi (Dec 11, 2019)

ari(a cuber) said:


> 2x2 is amazing, here are a few reasons why. number one, the event itself is fast and goes by quickly. number 2, its hardware is so great. number 3, almost every 2x2 is good and they are all pretty cheap. number 4, its easy to learn and easy to get fast at


 the solves rarely have any variation, theres hardly any intuition, and to get really fast its just alg spam, turn speed, and prediction. I don't think its very interesting. This is just my opinion though.


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## ari(a cuber) (Dec 11, 2019)

I understand what you mean


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## Tabe (Dec 11, 2019)

PugCuber said:


> I mean, how would you know for sure if you haven’t even tried it? That’s what I’m saying.


What I'm saying is "seems gross" is a legit reason to not try something. Those that say it "seems gross" don't HAVE to get over it. They don't have to defend their thinking.

Note that I'm not saying "seems gross" is a valid argument for removal of feet from the WCA, just that it's a valid reason for not trying it.


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## GAN 356 X (Dec 11, 2019)

I can understand why you think 2x2 should be removed, but I think it should be kept for a while longer because it is a good introduction to other NxNs other than 3x3. It also is a pretty simple event, which makes it pretty easy to get good at. This reason could support both sides of the argument, as it is still pretty luck based (at least for singles). I think the WCA will have to remove the event in say 5-10 years once world records get more and more crazy.


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## PugCuber (Dec 11, 2019)

Tabe said:


> Note that I'm not saying "seems gross" is a valid argument for removal of feet from the WCA, just that it's a valid reason for not trying it.


I know.


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## One Wheel (Dec 12, 2019)

GAN 356 X said:


> I can understand why you think 2x2 should be removed, but I think it should be kept for a while longer because it is a good introduction to other NxNs other than 3x3. It also is a pretty simple event, which makes it pretty easy to get good at. This reason could support both sides of the argument, as it is still pretty luck based (at least for singles). I think the WCA will have to remove the event in say 5-10 years once world records get more and more crazy.



I’ve heard it argued that as records drop and get harder to beat winning titles will be more coveted, and I think we’re already seeing that. As that happens it makes sense to me that the finals at least of major championships will have more solves. 6x6 and 7x7 should move to Ao5 format (only for finals, probably only for championship finals). Fast events like 2x2, pyraminx, Skewb, square-1, clock, and possibly 3x3 and OH should move to Ao12 format. If events had to be removed I would favor some of the quicker, more luck-based events like 2x2 and Skewb, but I think adding solves to finals is a better solution.


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## GAN 356 X (Dec 12, 2019)

One Wheel said:


> I’ve heard it argued that as records drop and get harder to beat winning titles will be more coveted, and I think we’re already seeing that. As that happens it makes sense to me that the finals at least of major championships will have more solves. 6x6 and 7x7 should move to Ao5 format (only for finals, probably only for championship finals). Fast events like 2x2, pyraminx, Skewb, square-1, clock, and possibly 3x3 and OH should move to Ao12 format. If events had to be removed I would favor some of the quicker, more luck-based events like 2x2 and Skewb, but I think adding solves to finals is a better solution.


Yes, I agree. This should be implemented in other relatively larger competitions 150 people +. I think It would make the ground fairer, as it will make the averages more accurate compared to over 5 solves


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## Etotheipi (Dec 12, 2019)

GAN 356 X said:


> I can understand why you think 2x2 should be removed, but I think it should be kept for a while longer because it is a good introduction to other NxNs other than 3x3. It also is a pretty simple event, which makes it pretty easy to get good at. This reason could support both sides of the argument, as it is still pretty luck based (at least for singles). I think the WCA will have to remove the event in say 5-10 years once world records get more and more crazy.


i didn't say I wanted it removed, just that if I had to remove an event, it would be 2x2.


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## brododragon (Dec 30, 2019)

4 people voted 3x3 OH?!


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## One Wheel (Dec 31, 2019)

brododragon said:


> 4 people voted 3x3 OH?!



I voted for pyraminx, skewb, and none of the above. But OH does objectively add less to the WCA than Feet does, so in a fair ranking of which events should be removed OH goes above Feet.


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## One Wheel (Dec 31, 2019)

Xtreme Cuber said:


> why would you vote for none of the above, as well as voting for several of the above?


Because I don’t believe any events should be removed, but if any are then it should be pyraminx and skewb.


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## One Wheel (Dec 31, 2019)

Dr. Lube said:


> Just for fun...
> 
> Imagine that 3x3 is the 100-meter sprint of the cubing world. Now imagine that OH is the 100-meter hop, 'feet' is the 100-meter handstand and blind is the 100-meter... blind, and ask yourself the following questions:
> 
> ...



Perhaps better comparisons would be if 3x3 is the 100 meter dash, then OH is the 200 meter dash and Feet is Steeplechase. All good events, none run any reasonable chance of discrediting their governing body, and they each add something different to the sport. It’s just a little harder to tell what OH/200 meter dash add.


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## BenChristman1 (Jan 22, 2020)

One Wheel said:


> Perhaps better comparisons would be if 3x3 is the 100 meter dash, then OH is the 200 meter dash and Feet is Steeplechase. All good events, none run any reasonable chance of discrediting their governing body, and they each add something different to the sport. It’s just a little harder to tell what OH/200 meter dash add.


I mean, coming from somebody who is in track, there are people (especially Olympians) who specialize in just 1 event (although, they do compete in others). This is the same as cubing. Somebody's main event might be 4x4, but they also compete in 2x2-7x7. As far as what they add, it just adds variety for people to choose from. This helps cubing grow because people will choose events that appeal to them. It's just like if the mile was the only event in track, it would be no fun.


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## carcass (Apr 5, 2020)

Clock should NOT be removed. Just because it doesn't fit in with the other events doesn't mean that it should be removed. Every event is supposed to bring something special to the table, and clock does that with a non-algorithmic way of solving it. Also, saying that it should be removed just because it isn't really a twisty puzzle is the same thought process behind racism. Now OBVIOUSLY people who don't like clock aren't bad people in the least, it is just a bad philosophy.


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## brododragon (Apr 5, 2020)

carcass said:


> Clock should NOT be removed. Just because it doesn't fit in with the other events doesn't mean that it should be removed. Every event is supposed to bring something special to the table, and clock does that with a non-algorithmic way of solving it. Also, saying that it should be removed just because it isn't really a twisty puzzle is the same thought process behind racism. Now OBVIOUSLY people who don't like clock aren't bad people in the least, it is just a bad philosophy.


So, to sum it up, hating clock = racism?


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## One Wheel (Apr 5, 2020)

carcass said:


> Clock should NOT be removed. Just because it doesn't fit in with the other events doesn't mean that it should be removed. Every event is supposed to bring something special to the table, and clock does that with a non-algorithmic way of solving it. Also, saying that it should be removed just because it isn't really a twisty puzzle is the same thought process behind racism. Now OBVIOUSLY people who don't like clock aren't bad people in the least, it is just a bad philosophy.


Comparing a belief that clock should be removed from the event list to racism is too far, and honestly a bit of a non sequitur. The rest of your argument is fine.


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## CubeBlazer (Apr 5, 2020)

carcass said:


> Clock should NOT be removed. Just because it doesn't fit in with the other events doesn't mean that it should be removed. Every event is supposed to bring something special to the table, and clock does that with a non-algorithmic way of solving it. Also, saying that it should be removed just because it isn't really a twisty puzzle is the same thought process behind racism. Now OBVIOUSLY people who don't like clock aren't bad people in the least, it is just a bad philosophy.


Clock should be removed. My reason? It should be named cloncc.


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## CodingCuber (Apr 5, 2020)

Remove clock, replace it with 15 puzzle.


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## CubeBlazer (Apr 5, 2020)

Add feet back


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## brododragon (Apr 5, 2020)

CubeBlazer said:


> Add feet back


Lol right now my flashlight is on and I'm sitting on my bed at 1:50 am going on to 30 minutes of a feet attempt have a corner twist.

On a more serious note, feet doesn't have the same ability to be speedy fluid like all other events. Feet is not a speed optimized event, and shouldn't be added to competitions focused on speed.


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## alexiscubing (Apr 5, 2020)

I would rather have kilominx and redi cube than 15 puzzle
3x3 bets is also sick


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## CrispyCubing (Apr 5, 2020)

brododragon said:


> On a more serious note, feet doesn't have the same ability to be speedy fluid like all other events. Feet is not a speed optimized event, and shouldn't be added to competitions focused on speed.


Yes, you can’t turn as fast in feet but a lot of people enjoy the event because of that. In feet you can be more focused on efficiency and efficiency = speed.


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## Competition Cuber (Apr 5, 2020)

brododragon said:


> Lol right now my flashlight is on and I'm sitting on my bed at 1:50 am going on to 30 minutes of a feet attempt have a corner twist.
> 
> On a more serious note, feet doesn't have the same ability to be speedy fluid like all other events. Feet is not a speed optimized event, and shouldn't be added to competitions focused on speed.


So by your logic, the WCA should remove FMC?


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## One Wheel (Apr 5, 2020)

brododragon said:


> Lol right now my flashlight is on and I'm sitting on my bed at 1:50 am going on to 30 minutes of a feet attempt have a corner twist.
> 
> On a more serious note, feet doesn't have the same ability to be speedy fluid like all other events. Feet is not a speed optimized event, and shouldn't be added to competitions focused on speed.



Your statement is false.


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## Ayce (Apr 5, 2020)

CodingCuber said:


> Remove clock, replace it with 15 puzzle.


I don't see why 15 puzzle would benefit anything, it would be hard to regulate and put rules to the puzzles, what would be labeled as pops or dnfs, the material and size of each piece. Too much work for something that seems very small.


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## WarriorCatCuber (Apr 5, 2020)

CodingCuber said:


> Remove clock, replace it with 15 puzzle.


Clock is too good.


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## Competition Cuber (Apr 5, 2020)

I'm not saying I think that it should/shouldn't be removed, but I think that the reason that a lot of people think clock doesn't belong in the WCA is that it isn't a "twisty puzzle" in the sense that all of the other puzzles are. But then if clock stays, what is really a twisty puzzle?


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## Ayce (Apr 5, 2020)

Competition Cuber said:


> But then if clock stays, what is really a twisty puzzle?


This quote kinda answers this


carcass said:


> Clock should NOT be removed. Just because it doesn't fit in with the other events doesn't mean that it should be removed. Every event is supposed to bring something special to the table, and clock does that with a non-algorithmic way of solving it.


props to carcass for explaining this


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## Cubinwitdapizza (Apr 5, 2020)

I swear this thread gets bumped and revived every 2 weeks.


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## brododragon (Apr 5, 2020)

One Wheel said:


> Your statement is false.


I stand corrected. That shows the people put lots of effort to optimize that and therefore shouldn't of been removed.


Competition Cuber said:


> So by your logic, the WCA should remove FMC?


_If_ I was correct about feet being unoptimized, which I'm not, I would say the logic doesn't apply to FMC because FMC isn't trying to be fast.


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## xyzzy (Apr 5, 2020)

Ayce said:


> it would be hard to regulate and put rules to the puzzles


It really wouldn't. We're already holding 15 puzzle in our forum weeklies and the only real issue is that scrambling can be a pain in the butt.

(edit: I guess one slightly tricky thing is that we need to require the board/tiles to have visible orientation so one can't just solve to the upside-down state if that happens to be more convenient, but ultimately this isn't a major hurdle.)


Ayce said:


> the material and size of each piece


We don't even regulate these for current WCA puzzles; why should we have to do this for 15 puzzle (if it gets added, which it likely won't)?


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## Ayce (Apr 5, 2020)

xyzzy said:


> It really wouldn't. We're already holding 15 puzzle in our forum weeklies and the only real issue is that scrambling can be a pain in the butt.
> 
> We don't even regulate these for current WCA puzzles; why should we have to do this for 15 puzzle (if it gets added, which it likely won't)?


good point, but this would just be another rubix magic, people would fill competition spots (non cubers) just to do 15 puzzle and leave. The people who would do the actual events can't g because the spot is taken by a 15 puzzle solver. What would be the case when a tile pops out? People can just slide it back in so fast they wouldn't get caught


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## Sub1Hour (Apr 5, 2020)

15 Puzzle is not really viable as an event because it has a lot of problems that magic had. It's not even a Twisty Puzzle or something similar like clock. If we do add another event we should look at traditional twisty puzzles or something similar to clock. There has been a push to add Kilominx and/or Redi Cube. Personally I am more in favor of Redi Cube being added because there is not anything similar to Redi Cube aside from skweeb but the only thing that they have in common is corner turning. We already have good hardware in the Moyu Redi Cube and the Yuxin Petals Cube, so why not add that to fill the hole that feet left.


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## GAN 356 X (Apr 5, 2020)

After judging clock at a local comp, it really started to interest me. Before that I had thought clock was weird and should be removed, now I have a different perspective. Sure, the hardware is not great, but thats not the fault of us cubers. In my opinion I think if any cube should go it should be pyraminx and skewb, even though I like theses events myself. To replace any events the go I would go for kilominx or master pyraminx


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## WarriorCatCuber (Apr 5, 2020)

GAN 356 X said:


> After judging clock at a local comp, it really started to interest me. Before that I had thought clock was weird and should be removed, now I have a different perspective. Sure, the hardware is not great, but thats not the fault of us cubers. In my opinion I think if any cube should go it should be pyraminx and skewb, even though I like theses events myself. To replace any events the go I would go for kilominx or master pyraminx


YES BECOME A CLOCKER!


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## ElephantCuber (Apr 5, 2020)

Clock is legit my favorite event, and it is the only event that I'm world class at, so it better not be removed


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## wask (Apr 5, 2020)

GAN 356 X said:


> Sure, the hardware is not great, but thats not the fault of us cubers.



If the hardware sucks and no big manufacturers are willing to invest in clock its because there is no demand...so it kinda is cubers fault.


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## CodingCuber (Apr 5, 2020)

Wow I was just giving my opinion. I doubt that it will actually be added. You guys just keep debating. I don’t want to be involved lol.


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## alexiscubing (Apr 5, 2020)

I think kilominx is a more wca worthy event than 15 puzzle


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## xyzzy (Apr 6, 2020)

Sub1Hour said:


> 15 Puzzle is not really viable as an event because it has a lot of problems that magic had.


Such as?


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## ProStar (Apr 6, 2020)

Sub1Hour said:


> 15 Puzzle is not really viable as an event because it has a lot of problems that magic had



Example?


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## Sub1Hour (Apr 6, 2020)

ProStar said:


> Example?


It has very few attributes that make it a "Twisty Puzzle" and is not as unique as clock, making it a very boring event. Not to mention how some 15 puzzles would give an unfair advantage, causing a multitude of hard to interpret regulations.


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## Mike Hughey (Apr 6, 2020)

Sub1Hour said:


> 15 Puzzle is not really viable as an event because it has a lot of problems that magic had.


As far as I know, there were two primary reasons why Magic was removed. The first, and by far most important, was that it was hard to judge. The requirements on the finishing state were challenging, plus a solve was far too short and so judging tended to degenerate to judging the validity of starting the timer, grabbing the puzzle before solving, releasing the puzzle after solving, and stopping the timer. The second was that, as practiced at the time, Magic was not a scrambled puzzle - it was simply going from one specific state to another specific state.

15 Puzzle has neither of these problems.


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## WarriorCatCuber (Apr 6, 2020)

I think that a SCRAMBLED magic or master magic would work well.


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## ProStar (Apr 6, 2020)

Sub1Hour said:


> It has very few attributes that make it a "Twisty Puzzle" and is not as unique as clock, making it a very boring event. Not to mention how some 15 puzzles would give an unfair advantage, causing a multitude of hard to interpret regulations.



Do you know why Magic was removed? Also I like how you're for non-standard and unique twisty puzzles if it's clock or exactly like clock(which isn't unique). Magic was removed, as Mike said, because of hard judging and that it wasn't scrambled. 15 Puzzle can be judged fine and is scrambled. And how would some 15 puzzles give a greater advantage over someone having a Rubik's brand instead of a Gan?



WarriorCatCuber said:


> I think that a SCRAMBLED magic or master magic would work well.



I think it'd definitely be cool, and I know that many people have said it's a great idea but hard to actually execute


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## brododragon (Apr 6, 2020)

WarriorCatCuber said:


> I think that a SCRAMBLED magic or master magic would work well.


There's only 32 possible permutations on a magic, so you easily memorize all positions optimal algorithm.


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## Micah Morrison (Apr 6, 2020)

honestly I haven't thought much about 15 puzzle being a WCA event but I think it would be really cool and I would definitely compete. Only problem is that it's called the World Cube Association and every current puzzle is three dimensional but 15 puzzle is basically 2 dimensional.


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## Mike Hughey (Apr 6, 2020)

brododragon said:


> There's only 32 possible permutations on a magic, so you easily memorize all positions optimal algorithm.


Where did you get this number? I was not aware anyone had enumerated the possible permutations of a Magic. And the Magic is a three-dimensional puzzle, and I'm quite sure I've seen many more than 32 permutations on my Magics, at least when counting all 3-dimensional shapes. It is possible there might only be 32 "more than trivially different" permutations of a Magic, but if so, I would sure be quite interested in seeing them enumerated.


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## ProStar (Apr 6, 2020)

Micah Morrison said:


> honestly I haven't thought much about 15 puzzle being a WCA event but I think it would be really cool and I would definitely compete. Only problem is that it's called the World Cube Association and every current puzzle is three dimensional but 15 puzzle is basically 2 dimensional.



Clock? And if we're talking about it being the World *Cube* Association, then say goodbye to Megaminx and Pyraminx as well


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## brododragon (Apr 6, 2020)

Mike Hughey said:


> Where did you get this number? I was not aware anyone had enumerated the possible permutations of a Magic. And the Magic is a three-dimensional puzzle, and I'm quite sure I've seen many more than 32 permutations on my Magics, at least when counting all 3-dimensional shapes. It is possible there might only be 32 "more than trivially different" permutations of a Magic, but if so, I would sure be quite interested in seeing them enumerated.


Whoops I was just counting 2x4 rectangles. There are 1,351 possible shapes, not individual tiles, so that disproves my point. 1,351 is still a very small number, despite it only being shapes.


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## Sub1Hour (Apr 6, 2020)

ProStar said:


> Clock? And if we're talking about it being the World *Cube* Association, then say goodbye to Megaminx and Pyraminx as well


He is not referring to the actual cube shape, the reference is to the Dimensions of the puzzles. And yes, the clock is 3 dimensional even though you can only see 2 dimensions at a time. If it were 2 dimensional then the faces would not interact with each other.


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## ProStar (Apr 6, 2020)

Sub1Hour said:


> He is not referring to the actual cube shape, the reference is to the Dimensions of the puzzles. And yes, the clock is 3 dimensional even though you can only see 2 dimensions at a time. If it were 2 dimensional then the faces would not interact with each other.



So, we're arguing over the name, but instead of saying it should be cubes only, you're saying it should be 3d puzzles only? That makes sense


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## Micah Morrison (Apr 6, 2020)

Sub1Hour said:


> He is not referring to the actual cube shape, the reference is to the Dimensions of the puzzles. And yes, the clock is 3 dimensional even though you can only see 2 dimensions at a time. If it were 2 dimensional then the faces would not interact with each other.


yeah that's what I was trying to say. While I am for clock being removed from the WCA, at least it has a front and back. Again, I'm all for 15 puzzle being in the WCA, but it wouldn't be very spectator friendly and it's not really a cube like puzzle


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## brododragon (Apr 6, 2020)

More Magic stuff that's slightly off-topic: If there are 32 possible 2x4's and 1,351 possible shapes, couldn't you just multiply 32 x 1,351 = 43,232?


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## Sub1Hour (Apr 6, 2020)

ProStar said:


> So, we're arguing over the name, but instead of saying it should be cubes only, you're saying it should be 3d puzzles only? That makes sense


Well if you gonna make a big deal out of it than yes. Things like LoopOver (Go check that out if you haven't its a really cool program/puzzle) and 15 puzzles are fun but they do not really fit into the current day WCA. Actual Twisty Puzzles is what people come to the WCA for, not standard things like 15 puzzle. And if you want, let's call it WTPA, not as catchy but more accurate. Not that the name matters or anything but we should focus on adding events that appeal to cubers, not just puzzle solvers. I don't know if they have their own competition organization or if they even care about competing. The WCA was made for Cubers, not for general puzzle enthusiasts


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## Sub1Hour (Apr 6, 2020)

brododragon said:


> More Magic stuff that's slightly off-topic: If there are 32 possible 2x4's and 1,351 possible shapes, couldn't you just multiply 32 x 1,351 = 43,232?


I'm not that big of a magic expert, but the way the magic is strung prevents certain combinations, almost like bandaging. So no that would not be possible. But if you look at the possible permutations of the tiles while its in the standard 2x4 shape that could be used to find the total number of possible permutations.


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## brododragon (Apr 6, 2020)

Sub1Hour said:


> The WCA was made for Cubers, not for general puzzle enthusiasts


No "general puzzle enthusiast" is going to go to a WCA competition. I respect that people want the 15-puzzle: It's a nice way to mix things up and It's very simple but but complex and a long enough event to have serious competition (unlike 2x2).


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## Sub1Hour (Apr 6, 2020)

brododragon said:


> No "general puzzle enthusiast" is going to go to a WCA competition. I respect that people want the 15-puzzle: It's a nice way to mix things up and It's very simple but but complex and a long enough event to have serious competition (unlike 2x2).


If no general puzzle enthusiast is going to a WCA competition, why add an event that caters to them instead of Redi Cube or something similar that caters to Cubers?


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## ProStar (Apr 6, 2020)

Sub1Hour said:


> Well if you gonna make a big deal out of it than yes. Things like LoopOver (Go check that out if you haven't its a really cool program/puzzle) and 15 puzzles are fun but they do not really fit into the current day WCA. Actual Twisty Puzzles is what people come to the WCA for, not standard things like 15 puzzle. And if you want, let's call it WTPA, not as catchy but more accurate. Not that the name matters or anything but we should focus on adding events that appeal to cubers, not just puzzle solvers. I don't know if they have their own competition organization or if they even care about competing. The WCA was made for Cubers, not for general puzzle enthusiasts



So you've taken it upon yourself to decide that cubers don't like 15 Puzzle?


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## ProStar (Apr 6, 2020)

Sub1Hour said:


> If no general puzzle enthusiast is going to a WCA competition, why add an event that caters to them instead of Redi Cube or something similar that caters to Cubers?



I still don't understand why you think you have the authority to decide that cubers think 15 Puzzle is stupid and Redi Cube or Kilominx is way better


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## brododragon (Apr 6, 2020)

Sub1Hour said:


> If no general puzzle enthusiast is going to a WCA competition, why add an event that caters to them instead of Redi Cube or something similar that caters to Cubers?


The 15-puzzle mixes things up, and it's fairly complex with a simple mechanism.


ProStar said:


> So you've taken it upon yourself to decide that cubers don't like 15 Puzzle?





ProStar said:


> I still don't understand why you think you have the authority to decide that cubers think 15 Puzzle is stupid and Redi Cube or Kilominx is way better


He's/She's a cuber, and they don't like it, like others. It may or may not be the majority, but it's an opinion.


Sub1Hour said:


> But if you look at the possible permutations of the tiles while its in the standard 2x4 shape that could be used to find the total number of possible permutations.


The 32 _is_ the possible number of permutations in the 2x4. Also, the shape affect how it bandages? Because, if not, my numbers should be right.


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## Sub1Hour (Apr 6, 2020)

ProStar said:


> So you've taken it upon yourself to decide that cubers don't like 15 Puzzle?


Why add 15 puzzles when we can add actual twisty puzzles? These kinds of things don't fit in the WCA. A lot of cubers I have met are interested in speedrunning, so according to your logic since cubers like it lets add speedruns as events. There are similarities between speedrunning and cubing so why not add speedruns as events? If cubers like something that does not classify it as an event.


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## ProStar (Apr 6, 2020)

Sub1Hour said:


> Why add 15 puzzles when we can add actual twisty puzzles? These kinds of things don't fit in the WCA. A lot of cubers I have met are interested in speedrunning, so according to your logic since cubers like it lets add speedruns as events. There are similarities between speedrunning and cubing so why not add speedruns as events?



Why add Kilominx when we could be adding a new cube? Minxes don't fit in the WCA. A lot of cubers I've met wished they had a 33x33x33, so we should add 33x33x33 right?

Do you understand the stupidity of your argument? You don't get to decide what fits in the WCA and what doesn't. And 15 puzzle is still a puzzle, while speedrunning is a completely different thing with its own community.


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## Sub1Hour (Apr 6, 2020)

ProStar said:


> Why add Kilominx when we could be adding a new cube? Minxes don't fit in the WCA. A lot of cubers I've met wished they had a 33x33x33, so we should add 33x33x33 right?
> 
> Do you understand the stupidity of your argument? You don't get to decide what fits in the WCA and what doesn't. And 15 puzzle is still a puzzle, while speedrunning is a completely different thing with its own community.


Sure I don't, I'm not bob burton so I can't decide what happens with the WCA. I'm just giving my opinion on events being removed and added to the WCA, I'm not actually going to try and get 15 puzzle removed if it gets added. But the community should decide what events are added. (thanks for the poll on removing feet). I'm sure that more Cubers are interested in twisty puzzle events than something like 15 puzzle. Also, strawman argument with your first point, good job. 15 puzzle may be a puzzle, but the only similarities I can think of that compares it with traditional WCA events are few. I can only think of 2, 1. It has commutators, 2, all of the pieces are kept in a confined state for the solve aside from pops. Maybe you could say there are different solving methods, but that can be said for most puzzles that are not 1 solution like separate x from y. 15 Puzzle would be fun but I'm sure that other events would not only fit better into the current WCA, but the community would enjoy them more than 15 Puzzle.


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## ProStar (Apr 6, 2020)

Sub1Hour said:


> Sure I don't, I'm not bob burton so I can't decide what happens with the WCA. I'm just giving my opinion on events being removed and added to the WCA, I'm not actually going to try and get 15 puzzle removed if it gets added. But the community should decide what events are added. (thanks for the poll on removing feet). I'm sure that more Cubers are interested in twisty puzzle events than something like 15 puzzle. Also, strawman argument with your first point, good job. 15 puzzle may be a puzzle, but the only similarities I can think of that compares it with traditional WCA events are few. I can only think of 2, 1. It has commutators, 2, all of the pieces are kept in a confined state for the solve aside from pops. Maybe you could say there are different solving methods, but that can be said for most puzzles that are not 1 solution like separate x from y. 15 Puzzle would be fun but I'm sure that other events would not only fit better into the current WCA, but the community would enjoy them more than 15 Puzzle.



Again, you're very certain that the community doesn't want 15 Puzzle added, and again I will tell you that you aren't the community and you really don't know the opinion of all cubers on whether or not 15 Puzzle should be in the WCA


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## Etotheipi (Apr 6, 2020)

I for one, would like to see 15 puzzle added.


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## Sub1Hour (Apr 6, 2020)

ProStar said:


> Again, you're very certain that the community doesn't want 15 Puzzle added, and again I will tell you that you aren't the community and you really don't know the opinion of all cubers on whether or not 15 Puzzle should be in the WCA


I have never heard anyone at a competition ever in my 2 years of cubing say they would like 15 puzzle, nor have I heard it on discord. The first time I heard people wanting it as an event was on here when it was added to the weekly competitions. I have heard many people push for Kilominx and Redi Cube. I don't know if this is a regional thing, but from what I've heard and seen, Kilominx and Redi Cube are by far more popular. I have seen people posting their Redi cube averages, Kilominx algs, and Master Pyraminx PB's left and right for as long as the puzzles existed. I have never seen a single 15 puzzle average in my life. I don't know if this is a case of small sample size or what but I for one am certain that Kilominx, Redi cube, or Master Pyra would be better received. I'm not trying to act as the whole community, I'm just adding my opinion into an opinion-oriented site in an opinion-oriented thread based on an opinionated idea.


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## ProStar (Apr 6, 2020)

Sub1Hour said:


> I have never heard anyone at a competition ever in my 2 years of cubing say they would like 15 puzzle, nor have I heard it on discord. The first time I heard people wanting it as an event was on here when it was added to the weekly competitions. I have heard many people push for Kilominx and Redi Cube. I don't know if this is a regional thing, but from what I've heard and seen, Kilominx and Redi Cube are by far more popular. I have seen people posting their Redi cube averages, Kilominx algs, and Master Pyraminx PB's left and right for as long as the puzzles existed. I have never seen a single 15 puzzle average in my life. I don't know if this is a case of small sample size or what but I for one am certain that Kilominx, Redi cube, or Master Pyra would be better received. I'm not trying to act as the whole community, I'm just adding my opinion into an opinion-oriented site in an opinion-oriented thread based on an opinionated idea.



Have you ever looked for 15 Puzzle averages? How about Redi Cube or Kilominx? Usually you find stuff you're looking for



Personally, I average around 20 seconds on 15 Puzzle and am probably gonna start using fringing


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## Etotheipi (Apr 6, 2020)

Sub1Hour said:


> I have never heard anyone at a competition ever in my 2 years of cubing say they would like 15 puzzle, nor have I heard it on discord. The first time I heard people wanting it as an event was on here when it was added to the weekly competitions. I have heard many people push for Kilominx and Redi Cube. I don't know if this is a regional thing, but from what I've heard and seen, Kilominx and Redi Cube are by far more popular. I have seen people posting their Redi cube averages, Kilominx algs, and Master Pyraminx PB's left and right for as long as the puzzles existed. I have never seen a single 15 puzzle average in my life. I don't know if this is a case of small sample size or what but I for one am certain that Kilominx, Redi cube, or Master Pyra would be better received. I'm not trying to act as the whole community, I'm just adding my opinion into an opinion-oriented site in an opinion-oriented thread based on an opinionated idea.



Why the heck would there being lots of algs and resources for an event mean it should be added? That just makes there less area to explore. I don't think lack of resources or bad hardware is an excuse for events not being added, when an event is added, those things will be made over time because people will want them more. All your reasons for 15-puzzle not being added seem like reasons for it to be added to me.


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## Sub1Hour (Apr 6, 2020)

ProStar said:


> Have you ever looked for 15 Puzzle averages? How about Redi Cube or Kilominx? Usually you find stuff you're looking for
> 
> 
> 
> Personally, I average around 20 seconds on 15 Puzzle and am probably gonna start using fringing


I have not looked for Redi Cube or Kilominx averages, I just see them posted on Reddit and Discord, ETC. Also, good luck on your 15 puzzle, IDK what a good average is but I hope you get better. As for me, I will continue to work at sub 15 for Redi Cube. I'm interested to see what 15 puzzle looks like at a competition as an unofficial event. I have seen Kilominx work quite well and Redi Cube works well too. I'm just saying we should add the events that people want the most. I'm not opposed to adding 15 puzzle to the WCA forever, I'm just saying we should add actual twisty puzzles that more of the community would participate in.



Etotheipi said:


> Why the heck would there being lots of algs and resources for an event mean it should be added? That just makes there less area to explore. I don't think lack of resources or bad hardware is an excuse for events not being added, when an event is added, those things will be made over time because people will want them more. All your reasons for 15-puzzle not being added seem like reasons for it to be added to me.


If you could not tell by the post, many more people are interested in events other than 15 puzzle. If 15 puzzle becomes more popular than them then I do think we should add it. But as of right now, there are not enough people that do 15 puzzles to sustain it as an event compared to Kilominx and Redi Cube. Also just because its an event does not mean hardware would get better than it is. Do you know how hard it is to get a good clock? Sure companies like Moyu have said they are working on a clock, but that was almost 4 years ago. We already have decent hardware for Redi Cube and Kilominx. Why not add those right now since the community has already found good hardware, good methods, and good scramblers.


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## ProStar (Apr 6, 2020)

Sub1Hour said:


> I have not looked for Redi Cube or Kilominx averages, I just see them posted on Reddit and Discord, ETC. Also, good luck on your 15 puzzle, IDK what a good average is but I hope you get better. As for me, I will continue to work at sub 15 for Redi Cube. I'm interested to see what 15 puzzle looks like at a competition as an unofficial event. I have seen Kilominx work quite well and Redi Cube works well too. I'm just saying we should add the events that people want the most. I'm not opposed to adding 15 puzzle to the WCA forever, I'm just saying we should add actual twisty puzzles that more of the community would participate in.



You still don't know for sure that people don't want 15 Puzzle, you're just assuming based on your group of friends and your opinion



Sub1Hour said:


> If you could not tell by the post, many more people are interested in events other than 15 puzzle. If 15 puzzle becomes more popular than them then I do think we should add it. But as of right now, there are not enough people that do 15 puzzles to sustain it as an event compared to Kilominx and Redi Cube. Also just because its an event does not mean hardware would get better than it is. Do you know how hard it is to get a good clock? Sure companies like Moyu have said they are working on a clock, but that was almost 4 years ago. We already have decent hardware for Redi Cube and Kilominx. Why not add those right now since the community has already found good hardware, good methods, and good scramblers.



Not that many people seriously practice Redi Cube, Kilominx, or Master Pyraminx either. There are good scrambles and hardware for 15 puzzle, and good methods also. While they aren't near their limit, they're decently developed


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## Mike Hughey (Apr 6, 2020)

brododragon said:


> The 32 _is_ the possible number of permutations in the 2x4. Also, the shape affect how it bandages? Because, if not, my numbers should be right.


Have you ever tried solving a Magic before? To me it sounds like you're probably not aware of how it moves. It moves very differently from what you might expect by simply seeing a picture. The strings that bind it together make it move in very unusual ways.

At first glance, it looks to me like it might be true that there are 32 possible permutations of completely flat Magic if you only count the starting and finishing shapes, but don't count any other possible shapes. But of course, the biggest challenge to solving a scrambled Magic would be getting to one of those shapes to begin with. And considering how many people's Magics I used to "fix" at competitions back when it was an event, it seems like it is certainly somewhat of a challenge to solve a scrambled Magic for a large percentage of the competitors back then! (And even more so if considering Master Magic!)

I've been playing with my Magic now for quite a few minutes. I always forget how much fun the puzzle is until I pick it up and play with it for a while and remember.


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## Sub1Hour (Apr 6, 2020)

ProStar said:


> You still don't know for sure that people don't want 15 Puzzle, you're just assuming based on your group of friends and your opinion


You still don't know for sure that people don't want Kilominx or Redi Cube, you're just assuming based on your group of friends and your opinion


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## Sub1Hour (Apr 6, 2020)




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## ProStar (Apr 6, 2020)

Sub1Hour said:


> You still don't know for sure that people don't want Kilominx or Redi Cube, you're just assuming based on your group of friends and your opinion



I never said people didn't want Kilominx or Redi Cube, they're actually pretty popular for non-WCA puzzles. I'm not saying people only like 15 Puzzle in the way you're saying people only like Redi Cube or Kilominx. I'm pointing out where you're wrong.



Sub1Hour said:


> View attachment 11661



You can't say something shouldn't be added if it's not on the poll lol. If I put out a poll saying "Who should be the next president of the US?" and don't put Trump on there, I can't say that no one wants Trump to be president


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## Sub1Hour (Apr 6, 2020)

ProStar said:


> I never said people didn't want Kilominx or Redi Cube, they're actually pretty popular for non-WCA puzzles. I'm not saying people only like 15 Puzzle in the way you're saying people only like Redi Cube or Kilominx. I'm pointing out where you're wrong.


I don't understand what you are getting at. I'm against the addition of 15 puzzle. Not because I want to feel right, not because I hate 15 in general, it's because it's not as popular as other events and as we know with feet the WCA does not like events that are not popular, not to mention more people would enjoy Kilominx and Redi Cube so they should be added first. Also, the poll was not to show why 15 puzzle should not be added. It was to show why Kilominx and Redi Cube should be added. They have a huge following and if anything deserves to get added its Kilominx since it's by far the most popular unofficial event. 15 puzzle was not on the poll because, say it with me, 15 puzzle is not a twisty puzzle. Let's add Twisty Puzzles instead of 15 puzzle, because the WCA is made for TWISTY PUZZLES.


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## ProStar (Apr 6, 2020)

Sub1Hour said:


> I don't understand what you are getting at. I'm against the addition of 15 puzzle. Not because I want to feel right, not because I hate 15 in general, it's because it's not as popular as other events and as we know with feet the WCA does not like events that are not popular, not to mention more people would enjoy Kilominx and Redi Cube so they should be added first.



You still don't know for sure that 15 Puzzle isn't popular.



Sub1Hour said:


> Also, the poll was not to show why 15 puzzle should not be added. It was to show why Kilominx and Redi Cube should be added. They have a huge following and if anything deserves to get added its Kilominx since it's by far the most popular unofficial event.



Again, I'm not against Kilominx or Redi Cube. I own both and enjoy solving them. I'm against you thinking everyone hates 15 Puzzle



Sub1Hour said:


> 15 puzzle was not on the poll because, say it with me, 15 puzzle is not a twisty puzzle. Let's add Twisty Puzzles instead of 15 puzzle, because the WCA is made for TWISTY PUZZLES.



Ok, I'll be throwing clock away then


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## Sub1Hour (Apr 6, 2020)

ProStar said:


> Again, I'm not against Kilominx or Redi Cube. I own both and enjoy solving them. I'm against you thinking everyone hates 15 Puzzle


Why do you think I think everyone hates 15 Puzzle. I have said I don't. I don't hate 15 puzzle. It's an interesting puzzle, it just does not fit in the WCA. Why do you think I think everyone hates 15 Puzzle? I, however, think that 15 puzzle does not have enough people in the community interested in it becoming an event compared to Kilominx.


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## alexiscubing (Apr 6, 2020)

I would be fine with clock and 15 puzzle together
but if 15 puzzle was added I would also want other events
I don't think any event should be removed, but events such as clock, kilominx, master pyra and 15 puzzle should be on a yearly basis, events switch out every year


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## alexiscubing (Apr 6, 2020)

Also I don't think people should go to a comp if they only know 15 puzzle or clock, they should maybe make a regulation that everyone has to compete in 1 of 2-7, side events (not clock) Oh, FMC or BLD
I knonw that some people only ever do 1 wca event in their cubing careerv(zeeshan Khokhar and others) but 15 puzzle is slightly closer to bordering the "unpopular event" list


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## ProStar (Apr 6, 2020)

Sub1Hour said:


> Why do you think I think everyone hates 15 Puzzle. I have said I don't. I don't hate 15 puzzle. It's an interesting puzzle, it just does not fit in the WCA. Why do you think I think everyone hates 15 Puzzle? I, however, think that 15 puzzle does not have enough people in the community interested in it becoming an event compared to Kilominx.



Okay, you don't hate the puzzle, you think no one likes it. Better phrasing for you?



alexiscubing said:


> I would be fine with clock and 15 puzzle together
> but if 15 puzzle was added I would also want other events
> I don't think any event should be removed, but events such as clock, kilominx, master pyra and 15 puzzle should be on a yearly basis, events switch out every year



I personally am more in favor of a tiered system, but that could be cool



alexiscubing said:


> Also I don't think people should go to a comp if they only know 15 puzzle or clock, they should maybe make a regulation that everyone has to compete in 1 of 2-7, side events (not clock) Oh, FMC or BLD
> I knonw that some people only ever do 1 wca event in their cubing careerv(zeeshan Khokhar and others) but 15 puzzle is slightly closer to bordering the "unpopular event" list



Why would you want a regulation that forces someone to compete in certain events? If someone only likes clock, there's nothing wrong with them only competing in it


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## Sub1Hour (Apr 6, 2020)

ProStar said:


> Okay, you don't hate the puzzle, you think no one likes it. Better phrasing for you?


Do me a favor and google "Straw man fallacy" Then come back and we can actually discuss things.


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## ProStar (Apr 7, 2020)

Sub1Hour said:


> Do me a favor and google "Straw man fallacy" Then come back and we can actually discuss things.



Sorry about not responding right away, I was eating dinner(grilled chicken, actually really good. Didn't want to rush). Anyway,



Sub1Hour said:


> I'm just saying we should add the events that people want the most. I'm not opposed to adding 15 puzzle to the WCA forever, I'm just saying we should add actual twisty puzzles that more of the community would participate in.



You're absolutely saying that people don't like 15 Puzzle, which as I have said, you don't know for sure. I was directly answering your point of saying people don't like 15 Puzzle that much


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## Sub1Hour (Apr 7, 2020)

ProStar said:


> You're absolutely saying that people don't like 15 Puzzle, which as I have said, you don't know for sure. I was directly answering your point of saying people don't like 15 Puzzle that much


I am saying that, but you forgot one key point. " as much as Kilominx or Redi Cube". Now let's add them together, "You're absolutely saying that people don't like 15 Puzzle as much as Kilominx or Redi Cube" There we go. What is your take on that?


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## ProStar (Apr 7, 2020)

Sub1Hour said:


> I am saying that, but you forgot one key point. " as much as Kilominx or Redi Cube". Now let's add them together, "You're absolutely saying that people don't like 15 Puzzle as much as Kilominx or Redi Cube" There we go. What is your take on that?



I still say you don't know for sure or have solid proof


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## ProStar (Apr 7, 2020)

I'd also like to say that I'd rather have Redi Cube added over 15 Puzzle


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## brododragon (Apr 7, 2020)

Mike Hughey said:


> Have you ever tried solving a Magic before? To me it sounds like you're probably not aware of how it moves. It moves very differently from what you might expect by simply seeing a picture. The strings that bind it together make it move in very unusual ways.
> 
> At first glance, it looks to me like it might be true that there are 32 possible permutations of completely flat Magic if you only count the starting and finishing shapes, but don't count any other possible shapes. But of course, the biggest challenge to solving a scrambled Magic would be getting to one of those shapes to begin with. And considering how many people's Magics I used to "fix" at competitions back when it was an event, it seems like it is certainly somewhat of a challenge to solve a scrambled Magic for a large percentage of the competitors back then! (And even more so if considering Master Magic!)
> 
> I've been playing with my Magic now for quite a few minutes. I always forget how much fun the puzzle is until I pick it up and play with it for a while and remember.


I was referencing a previous statement where I said that there are 32 permutations of the tiles times 1,351 possible shapes, giving you a total of 43,232 states. I realized I didn't take into account shapes, but now I have, so, as far as I can see (not far) it's correct.


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## Mike Hughey (Apr 7, 2020)

brododragon said:


> I was referencing a previous statement where I said that there are 32 permutations of the tiles times 1,351 possible shapes, giving you a total of 43,232 states. I realized I didn't take into account shapes, but now I have, so, as far as I can see (not far) it's correct.


Where are you getting these numbers from? How are you counting the permutations? Where did you get 1351 shapes from?


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## brododragon (Apr 7, 2020)

Mike Hughey said:


> Where are you getting these numbers from? How are you counting the permutations? Where did you get 1351 shapes from?


Wikipedia, but I've checked all of Wikipedia's sources and I don't think anyone cares about Magic enough to troll.


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## Mike Hughey (Apr 7, 2020)

brododragon said:


> Wikipedia, but I've checked all of Wikipedia's sources and I don't think anyone cares about Magic enough to troll.


Thank you - that is a useful resource. The 32 actually means there are twice as many possibilities for the start configuration as I originally thought. The total number of "theoretically" possible shapes of the chain is an interesting one. It's not exactly a direct translation to number of 3-dimensional shapes, but realistically, the number of 3-dimensional shapes that are actually reachable is probably less than that.


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## brododragon (Apr 7, 2020)

Mike Hughey said:


> It's not exactly a direct translation to number of 3-dimensional shapes, but realistically, the number of 3-dimensional shapes that are actually reachable is probably less than that.


They probably counted different orientations of the same shape as different, so that would make sense.


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## Cody_Caston (Apr 7, 2020)

15 puzzle could have its own association because its not a twisty puzzle (same as clock)


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## Auric Cui (Jul 18, 2022)

I say FMC, 2x2, or megaminx should go. FMC is just, werid. 2x2 is a waste of time and so is megaminx (Not to offend those who like these events)


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## Jay Cubes (Jul 18, 2022)

Auric Cui said:


> I say FMC, 2x2, or megaminx should go. FMC is just, werid. 2x2 is a waste of time and so is megaminx


ive heard bad opinions on wca events but dont talk to me ever again


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## Filipe Teixeira (Jul 18, 2022)

Auric Cui said:


> I say FMC, 2x2, or megaminx should go. FMC is just, werid. 2x2 is a waste of time and so is megaminx


I agree that those events are waste of time if you're bad at them


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## White KB (Jul 18, 2022)

Filipe Teixeira said:


> I agree that those events are waste of time if you're bad at them


I'm so bad at those. My best results are a 5.12 average/3.55 single in 2x2, 2:38.77 average/2:22.03 single in mega, and a 47 move single in FMC. Regardless, I don't think they should be removed from the WCA.

EDIT: I just realized that originally when I went to this thread I thought Clock should be removed. Bleh, past me. The QiYi Magnetic is the way to go, so stop complaining about how Clock is bad.


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## IsThatA4x4 (Jul 18, 2022)

I'm not particularly against any events as of current, and I think that any event that isn't popular but is not removed _can _still be kept as it really is just up to the organisers whether they include it or not
And even though this argument is 2 years old, I think clock does qualify as a "twisty puzzle", at least in the literal sense of the phrase.
You "twist" the handles or whatever they're called, and the clock hands "twist" accordingly
It is a bit of a stretch but not as untwisty (that's a new one) as say, 15 puzzle.


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## White KB (Jul 18, 2022)

IsThatA4x4 said:


> I'm not particularly against any events as of current, and I think that any event that isn't popular but is not removed _can _still be kept as it really is just up to the organisers whether they include it or not
> And even though this argument is 2 years old, I think clock does qualify as a "twisty puzzle", at least in the literal sense of the phrase.
> You "twist" the handles or whatever they're called, and the clock hands "twist" accordingly
> It is a bit of a stretch but not as untwisty (that's a new one) as say, 15 puzzle.


I agree. I'm planning on doing every 2019 event (which, thanks to Extra Events, is possible) so for me I've done these so far:
3x3, 2x2, 4x4, 5x5, 3BLD (single), FMC (single) (SR2 holder), OH, Clock (Dual SR holder), Megaminx, Pyraminx (SR2 holder), Skewb, Square-1, and (under EE) 3x3 With Feet (single).

And these are the events I haven't done but can do:

6x6, 7x7, 3BLD mean, FMC mean, 4BLD (as of 2 days ago), 5BLD (as of yesterday).

(Finally able to do bigBLD )

I can also do MBLD, but not under the legal time limit, so I'll need to work on that. Other than that limitation, I think being able to do every WCA event is a great achievement that people can look at. Before Feet was removed, there were only about 300 people who had done every event. Now there are more, but still: I think we should keep every event, since every event provides its own challenges. Doing every event (with mean/average) is an achievement I would like to have, and if people remove events that I like, that takes the fun away for not only me, but everyone who likes that event. The clock solvers Facebook group alone has 817 members.

(And also bigBLD is apparently very fun once you learn how to do things.)


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## Ayce (Jul 18, 2022)

IsThatA4x4 said:


> I'm not particularly against any events as of current, and I think that any event that isn't popular but is not removed _can _still be kept as it really is just up to the organisers whether they include it or not
> And even though this argument is 2 years old, I think clock does qualify as a "twisty puzzle", at least in the literal sense of the phrase.
> You "twist" the handles or whatever they're called, and the clock hands "twist" accordingly
> It is a bit of a stretch but not as untwisty (that's a new one) as say, 15 puzzle.


What about having an event pool, where unpopular events can cycle in and out of being permitted in competitions annually, this would allow other event concepts like kilominx, relays, 15 puzzle, and other ideas to make their way into the WCA. Although I see an issue with this as people who main these unpopular event would obviously dislike this.


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## Owen Morrison (Jul 19, 2022)

Auric Cui said:


> I say FMC, 2x2, or megaminx should go. FMC is just, werid. 2x2 is a waste of time and so is megaminx


mega best


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## Owen Morrison (Jul 19, 2022)

Wow I voted for clock to be removed. I can't believe I used to be so stupid.


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## Ayce (Jul 19, 2022)

Owen Morrison said:


> Wow I voted for clock to be removed. I can't believe I used to be so stupid.


I accept your apology.


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## Thom S. (Jul 19, 2022)

Ayce said:


> What about having an event pool, where unpopular events can cycle in and out of being permitted in competitions annually, this would allow other event concepts like kilominx, relays, 15 puzzle, and other ideas to make their way into the WCA. Although I see an issue with this as people who main these unpopular event would obviously dislike this.


Been proposing almost the same thing since 2017(I think).
Would add too much logistics, backlash and drama, database clutter.

The whole Forum by now knows that I think 2x2 is an absolute joke for multiple reasons.
Am deeply offended some advocate for Squab. Squab best, objectively.


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## Ayce (Jul 20, 2022)

Thom S. said:


> Am deeply offended some advocate for Squab. Squab best, objectively.


_cries in sledgehammer/hedgeslammer_
Its a weird event but I don’t think it should be removed.


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## abunickabhi (Jul 20, 2022)

Ayce said:


> What about having an event pool, where unpopular events can cycle in and out of being permitted in competitions annually, this would allow other event concepts like kilominx, relays, 15 puzzle, and other ideas to make their way into the WCA. Although I see an issue with this as people who main these unpopular event would obviously dislike this.


Cool idea. This has already been discussed on the WCA forums. It is called the tier system, where the unpopular events in the WCA are kept on and off through the years.


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## qwr (Jul 20, 2022)

Everytime this topic comes up I make people mad by saying 6x6 and 7x7 should be removed, so I'll do it again: they're a rehash of 5x5, just longer and maybe more parity. You get nothing out of it except more face solving and edge pairing (which makes the event take way too long anyway) when new exciting events like kilominx or FTO could take its place.


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## gsingh (Jul 20, 2022)

qwr said:


> Everytime this topic comes up I make people mad by saying 6x6 and 7x7 should be removed, so I'll do it again: they're a rehash of 5x5, just longer and maybe more parity. You get nothing out of it except more face solving and edge pairing (which makes the event take way too long anyway) when new exciting events like kilominx or FTO could take its place.


me: add 8x8 and 9x9!
@qwr : remove 6x6 and 7x7!


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## Thom S. (Jul 20, 2022)

Ayce said:


> _cries in sledgehammer/hedgeslammer_
> Its a weird event but I don’t think it should be removed.


I meant Squan. The meme Word for Skewb is Skweb not Squab


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## qwr (Jul 20, 2022)

gsingh said:


> me: add 8x8 and 9x9!
> @qwr : remove 6x6 and 7x7!


you must be joking right?


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## IsThatA4x4 (Jul 20, 2022)

gsingh said:


> me: add 8x8 and 9x9!
> @qwr : remove 6x6 and 7x7!


Why remove 6x6??
We gotta give people a chance to get triple parity, it's a real character and resilience building experience!


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## Thom S. (Jul 20, 2022)

How do you even get Triple Parity when it's so easily avoided.
Also, 6 and 7 are huge fun, gonna write more tomorrow.


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## gsingh (Jul 20, 2022)

Thom S. said:


> How do you even get Triple Parity when it's so easily avoided.
> Also, 6 and 7 are huge fun, gonna write more tomorrow.


still double parity tho
they are still fun


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## Auric Cui (Aug 15, 2022)

Auric Cui said:


> I say FMC, 2x2, or megaminx should go. FMC is just, werid. 2x2 is a waste of time and so is megaminx (Not to offend those who like these events)


OK I take it back I like megaminx now


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## Timona (Aug 15, 2022)

Auric Cui said:


> OK I take it back I like megaminx now


You have seen the light.


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## LBr (Aug 15, 2022)

I think that an event cycle would be interesting, but wouldn’t go with the events you said: Kilominx is just a boring version of megaminx, and without all the cool optimisations that 2x2 has, so it shouldn’t be added. Relays don’t bring anything new to the scene: it’s just a case of showing how good you are at nxns. I personally don’t agree with the idea of an event cycle for the following reason: people wouldn’t want to practice an event only being held for half a year, as it would discourage competitors from competing, which sort of defeats the point of a wca event, and the wca should be committed to an event rather than flogging it off for half the year.


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## NigelTheCuber (Aug 15, 2022)

I would want to remove 7x7, if you like odd layer cube with no parity just go do 5x5

Also clock, it isn't a twisty puzzle and is so different from the others


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## NigelTheCuber (Aug 15, 2022)

Thom S. said:


> Been proposing almost the same thing since 2017(I think).
> Would add too much logistics, backlash and drama, database clutter.
> 
> The whole Forum by now knows that I think 2x2 is an absolute joke for multiple reasons.
> Am deeply offended some advocate for Squab. Squab best, objectively.


why is 2x2 a joke lmao


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## Thom S. (Aug 15, 2022)

NigelTheCuber said:


> why is 2x2 a joke lmao


*Points at puzzle*
*Points at WR*
*Points at lenght of algorithms*
*Points at amount of algorithms needing to be learnt to have a chance of competing at top level*
*Points at the fact that nobody actually has fun with 2x2, it's about learning multiple algs per case, so you can chose one that saves a single move*
*Points at the fact that you need to one-look the solve in inspection, meaning there is no brain power involved, only thing holding you back from getting faster times is how fast you can move your fingers*
*Points at the WR, UWR and PBs of the Top 20 all being 4 movers, the minimal lenght that is allowed*
*Points at 2x2 Mains not being taken seriously by the community*
*Points at WR standing with no improvement*
*Points at 2-0.75 second solves never being interesting for a spectator to look at*
*Points at puzzle again*


Also, why are you aking me, I've told you most of these twice already because you act each time like you've never heard it?


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## Imsoosm (Aug 15, 2022)

Thom S. said:


> *Points at puzzle*


It's small, so what?


Thom S. said:


> *Points at WR*


It's fast, so what?


Thom S. said:


> *Points at lenght of algorithms*


It's short, so what?


Thom S. said:


> *Points at amount of algorithms needing to be learnt to have a chance of competing at top level*


There are a lot of people who are consistently sub-2 while only knowing CLL and EG


Thom S. said:


> *Points at the fact that nobody actually has fun with 2x2, it's about learning multiple algs per case, so you can chose one that saves a single move*


It's more about which alg flows better according to the moves you made for the layer/face


Thom S. said:


> *Points at the fact that you need to one-look the solve in inspection, meaning there is no brain power involved, only thing holding you back from getting faster times is how fast you can move your fingers*


Zayn Khanani: "Oh wow I don't even need a brain to think up optimal/near-optimal 2x2 solutions"


Thom S. said:


> *Points at the WR, UWR and PBs of the Top 20 all being 4 movers, the minimal lenght that is allowed*


Dang, people got lucky.


Thom S. said:


> *Points at 2x2 Mains not being taken seriously by the community*


MGC Elite and Valk are taken pretty seriously


Thom S. said:


> *Points at WR standing with no improvement*


Zayn's getting closer to it with his new 0.54 PB


Thom S. said:


> *Points at 2-0.75 second solves never being interesting for a spectator to look at*


Spectators: "Yeah a sub-1?? I see those everyday, they're super easy to get"


Thom S. said:


> *Points at puzzle again*


Again, it's small, so what?


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## White KB (Aug 15, 2022)

NigelTheCuber said:


> I would want to remove 7x7, if you like odd layer cube with no parity just go do 5x5
> 
> Also clock, it isn't a twisty puzzle and is so different from the others


_*shocked expression*_
But clock-- and 7x7-- I practice those...

I mean in some ways you have a point, but clock is unique and solving the QiYi Magnetic is really fun. Then for 7x7, I really like the event because it's long but also fast. Right now, I'm trying to push the sub-6:00 barrier and that has been a really fun challenge for me, especially since before this I averaged 7-9 minutes and was really out of practice. I also like that it's one of the only "long" events that doesn't require one to wear a blindfold or hold a pencil, other than Megaminx, 5x5, and 6x6.


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## White KB (Aug 15, 2022)

Thom S. said:


> *Points at puzzle*
> *Points at WR*
> *Points at lenght of algorithms*
> *Points at amount of algorithms needing to be learnt to have a chance of competing at top level*
> ...


Well said, er, um, pointed. I don't necessarily agree on this for the level I'm at (trying to get sub-5), but I can definitely see your "point" for top-level solving. But I will counter a bit: at least with the massive number of algs one has to learn, they're shorter on average than 3x3 algs...


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## DynaXT (Aug 15, 2022)

NigelTheCuber said:


> Also clock, it isn't a twisty puzzle and is so different from the others



But then I won't be good at any event


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## NigelTheCuber (Aug 15, 2022)

Thom S. said:


> *Points at amount of algorithms needing to be learnt to have a chance of competing at top level*


you can get sub-3 with only ortega if you practice.


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