# why doesnt verdes sue?



## tjyahl (Apr 13, 2010)

if knock offs are illegal and everything why doesnt verdes just sue?? :confused: i personally like the knock offs better but everyone keeps complaining about how knock offs are ruining cubing and stuff and if thats how it is why doesnt verdes sue? my friend seth mentioned something about it being produced in different countries, but i dont see why that would make a difference. and everyone that hates on knock offs, no offense but just stop hating, i know verdes took his time to think of this great mech but if your in school and you help a kid with the answer your not going to get all pissed off cause he took your answer are you?


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## MichaelP. (Apr 13, 2010)

I stopped reading after the first sentence because your grammar hurts my eyes.


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## tjyahl (Apr 13, 2010)

haha ya im not to good at grammer, ill admit it


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## Kirjava (Apr 13, 2010)

Oh jeez. Ok.

No one complains that knockoffs are hurting cubing, the only thing they are hurting is the payroll of VCubes. 

Good luck trying to sue someone in a country with pretty lax copyright/patent laws.



tjyahl said:


> i know verdes took his time to think of this great mech but if your in school and you help a kid with the answer your not going to get all pissed off cause he took your answer are you?




u r dum.


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## Neo63 (Apr 13, 2010)

tjyahl said:


> i know verdes took his time to think of this great mech but if your in school and you help a kid with the answer your not going to get all pissed off cause he took your answer are you?



not unless you spent many years figuring out the answer and also are trying to make money out of it.


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## Edward (Apr 13, 2010)

It's not that serious. >.>


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## koreancuber (Apr 13, 2010)

Edward said:


> It's not that serious. >.>



Really?


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## tjyahl (Apr 13, 2010)

why does everyone keep hating? its been like 3 post so far


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## 04mucklowd (Apr 13, 2010)

MichaelP. said:


> I stopped reading after the first sentence because your grammar hurts my eyes.



Stupid comment

On topic
Its probably quite hard for Verdes to sue the YJ company as they are on the other side of the world and there are probably a few complications, such as government policy about what goes on.

Plus the chinese legal system is quite corrupt


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## Kirjava (Apr 13, 2010)

tjyahl said:


> i made this thread to hopefully stop everyone to stop hating so much, its not that big of a deal, its been like 2 minutes and like every comment so far has hated on me or knockoffs




Every comment? Or no comments?


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## tjyahl (Apr 13, 2010)

thank you! for a legit answer rather than calling me dumb or something


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## Edward (Apr 13, 2010)

koreancuber said:


> Edward said:
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> 
> > It's not that serious. >.>
> ...



Or at least, in my opinion its not. If it was truly serious, I think he (Verdes) would've tried to do something about it (besides patents and copyrights).

If I'm missing info, tell me now, so I can shut-up and not fail (any further?).


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## Neo63 (Apr 13, 2010)

04mucklowd said:


> MichaelP. said:
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> > I stopped reading after the first sentence because your grammar hurts my eyes.
> ...



Not gonna argue with you but that's a bad example (I agree with the fact that it is indeed corrupt but the example you chose was something completely different). He was dealing huge amounts of drugs in China and I support what the Chinese government did to him. It's one thing to deal drugs but another thing to deal drugs in other countries.


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## koreancuber (Apr 13, 2010)

Edward said:


> koreancuber said:
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As 04mucklowd mentioned, it'd be darn hard to sue a company, in China. Plus, do we even know the location of this factory or who manufactures it?


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## MichaelP. (Apr 13, 2010)

tjyahl said:


> haha ya im not to good at grammer, ill admit it



Ok, when you have an "i" all by itself, it becomes an "I" because that way we know it sounds more like "eye". You also capitalize "i" if there is an apostrophe after it, so "im" and "ill" become "I'm" and "I'll". Now I know what your thinking, "There were no apostrophes there before!" but don't panic. An apostrophe goes into a word when it's actually two words. For example, look at the sentence before this one and find "it's". "It's" actually means "it is" but I made it shorter and added an apostrophe, but don't capitalize the "i" in "it's" because "it" is actually two letters, so the "i" isn't by itself, and the only reason I capitalized it at the beginning of this sentence was because it was at the beginning of the sentence. Why does this matter? It matters because the first letter of a sentence gets capitalized, so "haha" becomes "Haha". Did you get all of that?


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## Neo63 (Apr 13, 2010)

MichaelP. said:


> tjyahl said:
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> > haha ya im not to good at grammer, ill admit it
> ...



win response/spelling lesson


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## nlCuber22 (Apr 13, 2010)

Why don't you capitalize or punctuate?

Now _that_ is the question.

OT: It's hard to sue in China.


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## MichaelP. (Apr 13, 2010)

nlCuber22 said:


> Why don't you capitalize or punctuate?
> 
> Now _that_ is the question.



I already did capitalization, so why don't you take punctuation.


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## 04mucklowd (Apr 13, 2010)

Neo63 said:


> 04mucklowd said:
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If you read the article, you will see why I chose this story



> Mr Shaikh's family said he had been delusional and duped into a carrying a suitcase that did not belong to him when he was found with 4kg of heroin in Urumqi, north-west China, in September 2007



I also read somewhere else in that the chinese judges, laughed at him when he said he was tricked into bringing drugs in.


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## 04mucklowd (Apr 13, 2010)

koreancuber said:


> Edward said:
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It would be quite easy to find this out if Verdes wanted to
We know that YJ stands for Yong Jung I think that is what he is called


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## Neo63 (Apr 13, 2010)

04mucklowd said:


> Neo63 said:
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> > 04mucklowd said:
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First of all I don't believe that *excuse me* bs about him being mentally ill, as for the quote, that is quite possible, and I don't see it as being such a serious thing. C'mon, we all know China has human right issues.


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## CubesOfTheWorld (Apr 13, 2010)

Verdes' patents are pending for the countries that are knocking Verdes off the shelf.


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## 04mucklowd (Apr 13, 2010)

Neo63 said:


> 04mucklowd said:
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So are you supporting my point or disagreeing with it....


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## cincyaviation (Apr 13, 2010)

Kirjava said:


> Well, it is possible for a 13 year old girl to get pregnant if she has already started her period. And you get strech marks when your belly buldges. And yes the baby hurts when it is coming out. I have not had a baby but my oldest sister described it to me as a watermelon coming out of a lemon. Yes. that is very very very painful! And to explain how she gets pregnant, when a mommy and a daddy love each other (or think they love each other) they get married. Then they go on a honey moon, then they have sex. And then the sperm fertilizes the egg and then a baby is made. I always that was a talk parents told their 11 year olds. Goodness, not 13 year olds. Oh yea, and if you are thinking about having sex let me remind you it is a sin before marriage and also you will regret it all your life. Also if he pops your cherry, blood will go everywhere! So talk to your mom before you do anything.


punctuation lesson?
capitalizationisfornewbs


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## Neo63 (Apr 13, 2010)

Neo63 said:


> *Not gonna argue with you but that's a bad example (I agree with the fact that it is indeed corrupt but the example you chose was something completely different). *He was dealing huge amounts of drugs in China and I support what the Chinese government did to him. It's one thing to deal drugs but another thing to deal drugs in other countries.



(msg too short)


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## Stefan (Apr 13, 2010)

tjyahl said:


> if knock offs are illegal and everything *why doesnt verdes just sue?*?



How do you know they don't?


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## Dene (Apr 14, 2010)

tjyahl said:


> my friend seth mentioned something about it being produced in different countries, but i dont see why that would make a difference.



HURR DURR YAR COZ THE LAWS R TH SAME IN EVRY CONTRY NO KIDDIN. USA 4LYF!!!!1111!!one



tjyahl said:


> and everyone that hates on knock offs, no offense but just stop hating, i know verdes took his time to think of this great mech but if your in school and you help a kid with the answer your not going to get all pissed off cause he took your answer are you?



I actually literally hate you right now for saying that. You clearly do not understand anything. You are a complete and utter idiot.


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## cincyaviation (Apr 14, 2010)

Dene said:


> tjyahl said:
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> > my friend seth mentioned something about it being produced in different countries, but i dont see why that would make a difference.
> ...


lol, wambled by Dene, i'm his mentioned friend BTW


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## Dene (Apr 14, 2010)

Indeed. Oh well my comments weren't directed at the friend. So you're safe from an ear-bashing for now  .


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## cincyaviation (Apr 14, 2010)

Dene said:


> Indeed. Oh well my comments weren't directed at the friend. So you're safe from an ear-bashing for now  .



Don't worry, I'm sure I'll make a stupid comment somethime in the future


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## Dene (Apr 14, 2010)

cincyaviation said:


> Dene said:
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> > Indeed. Oh well my comments weren't directed at the friend. So you're safe from an ear-bashing for now  .
> ...



Lucky for you I rarely read your posts then


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## miniGOINGS (Apr 14, 2010)

Only one of those "sentences" were not questions.


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## DaijoCube (Apr 14, 2010)

Kirjava said:


> Oh jeez. Ok.
> 
> No one complains that knockoffs are hurting cubing, the only thing they are hurting is the payroll of VCubes.
> 
> ...


In fact, there are some peeps that are complaining about it. *Cough MeMySelfAndPi Cough*.

He is annoying with it.


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## gibsonguitarist55 (Apr 14, 2010)

look at all the things you see in the world that you buy at the store. then look at how many of the same things you see with a different name brand: verdes- yj, rubiks-diy, element skateboard-almost skateboard. there is nothing wrong with what china is doing, competing for a profit. and the thing is that people buy them and thats how they make their money.


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## Neo63 (Apr 14, 2010)

gibsonguitarist55 said:


> look at all the things you see in the world that you buy at the store. then look at how many of the same things you see with a different name brand: verdes- yj, rubiks-diy, element skateboard-almost skateboard. *there is nothing wrong with what china is doing, competing for a profit. and the thing is that people buy them and thats how they make their money.*



Wrong, and more importantly, not only is there something wrong with what China's laws are, there's something wrong with the company that are copying Verdes' design.

And have you ever heard of the idea of a patent?


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## CuBeOrDiE (Apr 14, 2010)

Neo63 said:


> gibsonguitarist55 said:
> 
> 
> > look at all the things you see in the world that you buy at the store. then look at how many of the same things you see with a different name brand: verdes- yj, rubiks-diy, element skateboard-almost skateboard. *there is nothing wrong with what china is doing, competing for a profit. and the thing is that people buy them and thats how they make their money.*
> ...


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## ~Phoenix Death~ (Apr 14, 2010)

tjyahl
Exactly how much research did you do about KO's? Also, if you're going to make a thread stating something "important" if so, at all, try to learn some grammar, because if you don't, people aren't going to take you seriously, even though they still aren't.


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## masterofthebass (Apr 14, 2010)

gibsonguitarist55 said:


> look at all the things you see in the world that you buy at the store. then look at how many of the same things you see with a different name brand: verdes- yj, rubiks-diy, element skateboard-almost skateboard. there is nothing wrong with what china is doing, competing for a profit. and the thing is that people buy them and thats how they make their money.



Then explain to me why this:

http://www.engadget.com/2009/12/22/microsoft-loses-patent-appeal-word-and-office-to-be-barred-from/

happened. Patent laws exist for a reason, and they are a hugely important thing for any company producing goods.


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## Stefan (Apr 14, 2010)

Neo63 said:


> not only is there something wrong with what China's laws are



What is wrong with them? And who decides what's right and what's wrong?


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## MichaelP. (Apr 14, 2010)

StefanPochmann said:


> Neo63 said:
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> > not only is there something wrong with what China's laws are
> ...



Wouldn't you say it's wrong to be able to steal someone else's idea?


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## tjyahl (Apr 14, 2010)

Pheonix death
i know nobody at all is taking me seriously and i really dont care much, this is my first thread and i didnt intend on this being a big thread or anything. i didnt exactly research them, i have a yj6 and yj7 and the pillowed diansheng 6x6 and my friends have vcubes and ive compared them many times, thats my personal preference i could care less about others opinions. and as for dan, i know they are important thats one of the reasons i started the thread


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## kprox1994 (Apr 14, 2010)

And you are still not using proper grammar, if you want people to take you seriously you need to use proper grammar.

And you should also really think about something before you make a thread.


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## tjyahl (Apr 14, 2010)

Thank you, for being nice about it.


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## Stefan (Apr 14, 2010)

MichaelP. said:


> StefanPochmann said:
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What do you mean with "steal an idea"? And why should that be wrong?


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## Sir E Brum (Apr 14, 2010)

In order to sue, one would also need to prove that the design itself was copied. Just because there is a YJ6 and a V-Cube 6 doesn't mean they have the exact same internal structure and components.


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## masterofthebass (Apr 14, 2010)

StefanPochmann said:


> MichaelP. said:
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directly stealing the mechanism that no one could produce in 20+ years isn't "stealing an idea'. There's a reason why V-cubes was awarded a patent for their design, and other companies have blatantly stolen it.




Sir E Brum said:


> In order to sue, one would also need to prove that the design itself was copied. Just because there is a YJ6 and a V-Cube 6 doesn't mean they have the exact same internal structure and components.



someone is completely ignorant.


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## Sir E Brum (Apr 14, 2010)

masterofthebass said:


> Sir E Brum said:
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> 
> > In order to sue, one would also need to prove that the design itself was copied. Just because there is a YJ6 and a V-Cube 6 doesn't mean they have the exact same internal structure and components.
> ...



I was hoping for some sort of citation that would indicate that the designs are identical.


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## masterofthebass (Apr 14, 2010)

Sir E Brum said:


> masterofthebass said:
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9cGI8h7kVX0 -- 6x6
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHwhbVqGdmY -- 9x9
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SbwUmN2X_ZM -- 5x5


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## Stefan (Apr 14, 2010)

masterofthebass said:


> StefanPochmann said:
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> > What do you mean with "steal an idea"? And why should that be wrong?
> ...


That doesn't answer the questions.



Sir E Brum said:


> masterofthebass said:
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I think they changed them slightly (the mod preventing 2/3 of the internal misalignments, producing one center that looks like a V6 center with two tabs melted on, instead of the center plus those two tabs), so they're *not* identical.


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## masterofthebass (Apr 14, 2010)

StefanPochmann said:


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you don't think stealing is wrong? is that what you are saying?


StefanPochmann said:


> Sir E Brum said:
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no, they aren't identical in the sense of identical twins, but they are identical in the actual mechanism that makes the thing work. Without the concept of the V-cube design, the cubes wouldn't even exist to slightly modify with trivial modifications.


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## Dene (Apr 14, 2010)

StefanPochmann said:


> MichaelP. said:
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I'll ignore the first part, but will tackle the second:

If we are to compare an idea, namely intellectual property, to an asset, namely physical property, then we can clearly deduce that it is wrong to steal an idea, just as it is wrong to steal a bike. Why? This would depend on the ethical view that you follow, but unless you want to get into a hardcore ethical argument (which I can't see you winning if you choose to disagree, to be honest), then I'm sure you will be happy with my conclusion. The only problem you may see is between the analogy. I will leave that up to you to refute.


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## Stefan (Apr 14, 2010)

masterofthebass said:


> you don't think stealing is wrong? is that what you are saying?


No, that's not what I'm saying. Plus I still don't know what's meant with "stealing an idea". Does the person then doesn't have the idea anymore? And in either case, I'd like to see an explanation why it should be wrong.

If I remember correctly, someone with good knowledge of Chinese culture once discussed this issue and said that in China, copying someone is actually considered a _compliment_. Who are we to tell a fifth of the world that they're wrong? And did you know that counting a half-turn as one turn rather than two is _wrong_? No? Here, look:







Just because someone thinks something is wrong, doesn't make it so.



Dene said:


> If we are to compare an idea, namely intellectual property, to an asset, namely physical property, then we can clearly deduce that it is wrong to steal an idea, just as it is wrong to steal a bike.



Yeah, not the same unless the person then doesn't have the idea anymore.



Dene said:


> unless you want to get into a hardcore ethical argument (which I can't see you winning if you choose to disagree, to be honest)



Not going to, but in this particular case (V-Cubes) I can tell you that by repeatedly attacking my health by smoking and then adding insult to injury by even joking about it when he knew I have problems with it, Verdes for me has forfeited any entitlement to use the ethics card.


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## Neo63 (Apr 14, 2010)

StefanPochmann said:


> masterofthebass said:
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> > you don't think stealing is wrong? is that what you are saying?
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hmm I'm Chinese and I don't recall that fact, and I don't think anyone would be happy if someone is making money off of your idea.


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## masterofthebass (Apr 14, 2010)

So stefan, you have no concept of intellectual property? You are a computer scientist, no? If you were to spend years of your life creating an algorithm that accomplished some previously unsolvable task, and someone just decided to take it from you and profit from it, you wouldn't feel like something was stolen from you?


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## Edward (Apr 14, 2010)

masterofthebass said:


> So stefan, you have no concept of intellectual property? You are a computer scientist, no? If you were to spend years of your life creating an algorithm that accomplished some previously unsolvable task, and someone just decided to take it from you and profit from it, you wouldn't feel like something was stolen from you?



Maybe he just wants correct use of the word stolen?
How about we use the words "unlawfully copied" to describe what the KO companies did?


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## Stefan (Apr 14, 2010)

Neo63 said:


> hmm I'm Chinese and I don't recall that fact



This is what I meant:
http://www.twistypuzzles.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=12725

"_I've lived here for 15 years now_"
"_copied products. It is "good" to copy others._"


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## Neo63 (Apr 14, 2010)

StefanPochmann said:


> Neo63 said:
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> 
> > hmm I'm Chinese and I don't recall that fact
> ...



I think he is referring to something called Shanzhai, which is a relatively new idea. There has been much debate on the Chinese cubing forum mf8, and there have been quite a few people questioning the problem of YJ KO-ing the V-cube technology but there are also a lot of people who promoted the shanzhai-ism, and no agreement was ever reached. mf8 did ban the company QJ from advertising due to QJ copying the design of an mf8 product, which I thought was kinda ironic. The general thought in China is that KO, especially the ones that copied the technology from other countries, is beneficial to China's development, and it benefits the people. I was educated in China till grade 7 and one of the ideas that they sort of imposes on you is the idea of going to schools overseas, which they wanted you to "learn" the technology from other countries and bring them back to China. Also the idea of a patent/intellectual property in China is not rare but somewhat uncommon, and the country's Copyright laws are pretty bad. I know from experience because my grandfather has several patents in China and he studied law just so he could argue with the court etc (long story)...

Sorry for the long post, I sort of just said a bunch of stuff all together..If there's any confusion I'd be glad to post my opinion.

EDIT: read the story again and I agree with what he/she is saying.


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## Stefan (Apr 14, 2010)

masterofthebass said:


> So stefan, you have no concept of intellectual property?


I guess I have *some* concept of it, but I'm unsure about what should follow from it. And looking at the wikipedia page I can see I'm not the only one who has problems with it. For example, I just read the first few pages of this book linked to from the wikipedia page, it tells the story of early steam engines and how patents apparently prevented progress and caused waste. Doesn't sound good to me.



masterofthebass said:


> You are a computer scientist, no? If you were to spend years of your life creating an algorithm that accomplished some previously unsolvable task, and someone just decided to take it from you and profit from it, you wouldn't feel like something was stolen from you?



I'm not sure I'd say "stolen", but yeah, I might (*) not like it. On the other hand... if he and possibly his clients or perhaps even society as a whole have an advantage from it... well, that might outweigh my disadvantage. Who am I to refuse benefits to society?

(*) I said "might" because it depends on the case. For example I did invent cubing methods, people are now using them to beat me in competitions, and I don't mind but am happy about it.

Also... I recently peeked into the TwistyPuzzles forum again and saw people lament about teraminx and other puzzles getting mass-produced. Their reason? They had paid a lot for the early custom-made ones, and now they're complaing and that their values are lost and that they can't feel special anymore for owning rare puzzles. And they actually explicitly complained that many people can enjoy these puzzles now. Selfish bastards.


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## Dene (Apr 14, 2010)

StefanPochmann said:


> Dene said:
> 
> 
> > If we are to compare an idea, namely intellectual property, to an asset, namely physical property, then we can clearly deduce that it is wrong to steal an idea, just as it is wrong to steal a bike.
> ...



I'm going to have to disagree. The wrong is not in the _consequences_ (utilitarian bull crap), but in the _actions_ (how we are all brought up to think, and rightly so).


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## Stefan (Apr 14, 2010)

Dene said:


> I'm going to have to disagree.


Ok, no problem.


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## Kyle Barry (Apr 14, 2010)

It seems everyone is desperate to appear as ethical as possible, when in reality, I'm sure all of you buy products from people doing ethically questionable things. Unless you are a personal friend to Verdes, which Dan may be, but I doubt anyone else is, being staunchly against knockoffs is probably hypocritical. 
I think the only reason y'all are getting worked up about this is because we are so intimately tied to the Rubik's cube world, while if this happened in the food industry, which it does all the time, we wouldn't mind paying $20 less for a better product, and certainly wouldn't research further to find out if the idea was taken. Smart phones? Computers? Does this idea bother anyone else in any other situation.
Telling me I shouldn't buy a knockoff because I have to care more about Verdes, the creator, than a Chinese manufacturer, which improved the product, is crazy to me. I'm buying the product for myself. Who here wouldn't take a free knockoff, even if the Chinese company was profiting from it? I challenge that we should have to suffer, and I think the competitive environment will bring out better products. How long should we boycott better products? Is it until the arbitrary date of a US patent runs out? 
If you truly commit yourself to making sure everything you buy and support is from the person who made the greatest stride in their field, great for you. But don't expect everyone else to follow suit.


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## Dene (Apr 14, 2010)

Kyle: I think you completely miss the point of the "spirit of patents". Someone has put in the time and effort to create something. They then put in the effort to produce it for us, and went to the effort to legally ensure that their time and effort does not go to waste. You know it turns out you _cannot_ get a patent for a recipe. I'm sure there is a very good reason for why this is the case, but why one _can_ get a patent for a product such as twisty puzzle. 

You call the date "arbitrary". I'm sure it is there just so that the company has a _ fair opportunity_ to take advantage of their time and effort. I don't see how you can be so rude. You act as if the world is an unfair place and that is how it should remain; like we should continue to use blacks as slaves even if it is unfair because the reasons are arbitrary. 

Also, I hardly think it is fair to compare to a major computer company or something, who are making mega-bucks on all sorts of crap anyway. We are talking about a couple of people here, in a small community. This scenario is completely incomparable.


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## qqwref (Apr 14, 2010)

I'm not really sure what I think about intellectual property. On one hand, my conscience tells me that if someone invented something they ought to be making the profits. But on the other hand, if another company can produce better, more, or cheaper products, even if they are copies, as a consumer it isn't unreasonable to want to buy them. So I don't know, I guess I'd say it's wrong to produce them, but once they are being produced it's not wrong to buy them if there is a good reason to. I'm sorry it sucks to produce things nowadays, but if people end up saying that the knockoff company has more cubes, cheaper prices, better quality, etc. then at some point you have to blame it on yourself for just not keeping up with it. You can't produce things forever and expect nobody to ever copy it, whether it's immoral or not...


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## 4Chan (Apr 14, 2010)




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## Kyle Barry (Apr 14, 2010)

Well, I certainly didn't mean to be rude, it's how I feel.

Firstly, you compare my position to defending slavery, which is ludicrous. I understand people may have moral qualms with the knockoffs, but I'm simply saying that you can't expect people to go to any lengths you determine are appropriate to defending these ethics. Will you demand I don't wear Nike shoes because they've been accused of not treating their workers fairly? Or shop at Wal-Mart because they pay their employees a little bit less than Target? Many would be outraged at me eating meat at all.

My point is, clearly we don't all have the same set of ideals. Imagine if Verdes was charging $1000 for a 7x7, which still only gave him a small profit. And I could get a knockoff for $20 from China. You can't possibly expect people to still buy from Verdes, even though you may feel sorry for the guy. At a point, you are worrying about yourself. 

I respect Verdes for his accomplishment, and for a time, he had a theoretical monopoly on big cubes. I own 4 Vcubes for this reason, and 0 knockoffs. But, telling anyone they have to shell out more money for any product is ethically questionable in itself, especially for people in abysmal economic conditions. 

To me, this is the same as saying that I have to give some money to a child starving in Africa because I can afford it. The same choice should exist here, in my view. If you're supporting Verdes, who clearly isn't destitute by buying his products, shouldn't you feel even more obligated to donate that difference to someone in a more dismal situation?

The hypocrisy still exists with any other industry, and I think most of y'all are picking and choosing when to be ethical.

And I partly agree with QQ here.


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## Robert-Y (Apr 14, 2010)

StefanPochmann said:


> MichaelP. said:
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> 
> > StefanPochmann said:
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To your first question:

I'm guessing that when a person X says that another person Y has "stolen their idea", X means that Y has taken X's idea and has used it to benefit themselves or other people in some way...

This is just what I think people generally mean by "stealing an idea"


...Random: I was thinking about what people mean by something which is "wrong".

I think that murdering in general is wrong and I also think that a lot of people think that murdering in general is wrong. So I thought that maybe when people say something is wrong, they mean that most people would have a problem with that certain something. But then I thought: If the whole world thought that murdering in general is not wrong, I would still consider murdering is general as something wrong so that definition of wrong is incorrect...

hmm...


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## Lucas Garron (Apr 14, 2010)

This thread became surprisingly competent.

What it's made me think of (especially thanks to Stefan): the Universal Declaration of Human Rights

It's probably quite Western in its composition, but certainly tries to avoid going into unnecessary details. The closest I could find to IP was 23(3):



> (3) Everyone who works has the right to just and favourable remuneration ensuring for himself and his family an existence worthy of human dignity, and supplemented, if necessary, by other means of social protection.


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## 04mucklowd (Apr 14, 2010)

Yer this thread was kind of over after the 25th post
As we had already reached a conclusion


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## Dene (Apr 14, 2010)

Kyle: just so you know, I wrote up a nice post, but then pressed the wrong button and lost it all. I can't be bothered to do that again so we will just have to leave it I guess.


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## Olivér Perge (Apr 14, 2010)

In my opinion, "stealing" the idea is not good, but China has *1,3 billion* mouths to feed every day, I don't think they really care about how they get the money for that...

And btw, if Nike, Adidas and big companies like them have issues to stop them doing knock offs, I don't think Verdes would has a chance.


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## Muesli (Apr 14, 2010)

My biggest confusion over this matter is how Verdez can justify his claim that he spent years working on his designs, yet an incredible improvement was thought up by some 18 year old American boy in a matter of months.

Note Verdez still hasn't implemented the Pi-mod into his designs. I don't think he's taking this seriously.


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## masterofthebass (Apr 14, 2010)

Musli4brekkies said:


> My biggest confusion over this matter is how Verdez can justify his claim that he spent years working on his designs, yet an incredible improvement was thought up by some 18 year old American boy in a matter of months.
> 
> Note Verdez still hasn't implemented the Pi-mod into his designs. I don't think he's taking this seriously.



I don't think you are aware of the massive investment it takes to make changes into molds for mass productions. Also, the use of pins is almost impossible to mass produce, making the clicking mechanism necessary to some degree. Also, the "incredible improvement" of the design doesn't change how the puzzle functions. The reason why the v-cube design is so "important" is the fact that they came up with a structural design to a puzzle that can handle being a 7x7. That's the main thing that is at issue here. There's a reason why nothing similar to V-cube existed until the V-cube was produced, the structure of the puzzle was just not conceived of by anyone.


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## Escher (Apr 14, 2010)

Re: Knockoffs,

I don't think any of us here have the right to be morally prescriptive about the situation. 
I would rather that information regarding both Verdes' invention, production & it's impact, and the knock-off situation in China & it's effects to original manufacturers, be made accessible and clear somewhere on the forum.

An informed moral choice should be made by the individual, not a badly formed and biased one.


Anyway, what Kyle said:


Kyle Barry said:


> If you're supporting Verdes, who clearly isn't destitute by buying his products, shouldn't you feel even more obligated to donate that difference to someone in a more dismal situation?


is interesting, if I understand correctly; if we are looking at it in terms of the effects of our actions, wouldn't the correct moral choice be to spend less on toys (i.e. buy a knock-off) and donate the money you would've spent (on the more expensive V-cube) to stopping somebody from starving to death?


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## LNZ (Apr 14, 2010)

China is a very wierd place. Things we would like them to do they don't do. The things we would not like them to do they actually do.

I'm sure Verdes discovered this the hard way. And we all learnt the same message the hard way too.

Have a look at the Stern Hu and the "Rio Tinto 4" case for this. China looks great and awesome from a distance but when you get really up close and personal they are a very different beast.

And I own a YJ 6x6 and a black V-Cube 6 too. I thought the YJ was good but a V6 broken in is much better. Almost all people agree that a real V5 and V7 is way better than the YJ knockoff cubes.


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## Stefan (Apr 14, 2010)

LNZ said:


> *China is a very wierd place.* Things we would like them to do they don't do. The things we would not like them to do they actually do.


Might be mutual, the Chinese thinking *we* are weird.



LNZ said:


> Have a look at the Stern Hu and the "Rio Tinto 4" case for this.


What about it?


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## Olivér Perge (Apr 14, 2010)

StefanPochmann said:


> LNZ said:
> 
> 
> > *China is a very wierd place.* Things we would like them to do they don't do. The things we would not like them to do they actually do.
> ...



I totally agree. We all have different cultures and different thinking which should be respected in my opinion. Who are we to decide which is better?


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## Cubenovice (Apr 14, 2010)

I do not know how well-patented Verdes mechanism is but it seems to me you are all missing a *very* important point.

To put it very short:

*Patents are exclusively national affairs. A ***insert country*** patent does not help you at all against someone who makes your invention in ***insert other country****

Has nothing to to with China having different laws or being corrupt or whatever you want to believe. 

You don't have a patent in the specific country? You don't have a case!

Regarding the copying is a compliment: I cannot believe the following saying has not been mentioned: "Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery".
Right or wrong is a different discussion (that I will not get into) but it is a very well know saying.


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## Stefan (Apr 14, 2010)

Cubenovice said:


> you are all missing a *very* important point.



No, we're well aware of that. *You* are missing that V-Cubes *are* patented in many countries, including China:
http://www.v-cubes.com/info/patent_trademarks.php


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## DavidWoner (Apr 14, 2010)

Olivér Perge said:


> StefanPochmann said:
> 
> 
> > LNZ said:
> ...



So shouldn't China respect Mr. Verdes's way of thinking and not copy his designs?


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## Olivér Perge (Apr 14, 2010)

DavidWoner said:


> Olivér Perge said:
> 
> 
> > StefanPochmann said:
> ...



How should I know, I'm not from China. 

Seriously: I meant that the fact that we are different should be respected. 

We all know they do knock offs all the time. It's not surprising, Mr. Verdes should have known it.


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## Cubenovice (Apr 14, 2010)

StefanPochmann said:


> Cubenovice said:
> 
> 
> > you are all missing a *very* important point.
> ...




LOL I had better checked the V cube site...
I did not see it mentioned in the thread that Vcubes were so widely (incl China) patented so I assumed ** * well you know...

Anyway, while a patent is intended to protect your invention the actual enforcement of your patent rights is a different story. Perhaps the time / costs involved are simple too much.

** **Note to self, never assume anything.


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## goatseforever (Apr 14, 2010)

>Bootleg items in *China.
*
>Cubing community shocked.

wat


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## Stefan (Apr 14, 2010)

DavidWoner said:


> So shouldn't China respect Mr. Verdes's way of thinking and not copy his designs?



I think you should all give me your best cubes as a gift. Please respect my way of thinking and act accordingly.


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## riffz (Apr 14, 2010)

masterofthebass said:


> So stefan, you have no concept of intellectual property? You are a computer scientist, no? If you were to spend years of your life creating an algorithm that accomplished some previously unsolvable task, and someone just decided to take it from you and profit from it, you wouldn't feel like something was stolen from you?



:fp

I think you're missing the point(s) he is trying to make...


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## DavidWoner (Apr 14, 2010)

StefanPochmann said:


> DavidWoner said:
> 
> 
> > So shouldn't China respect Mr. Verdes's way of thinking and not copy his designs?
> ...



Sorry I forgot that if I didn't explicitly state what I was trying to say that what I was saying would be intentionally misinterpreted and taken to a retarded extreme.

anyway, whatever cultural sentiments may exists towards KOs, they in no way have precedent over the laws.


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## r_517 (Apr 14, 2010)

Olivér Perge said:


> DavidWoner said:
> 
> 
> > Olivér Perge said:
> ...



1. i dislike KO. most cubers who really loves cubing in China dont like them either, and most of the remaining just dont care whether it is KO or not. the fact is more and more people in China have been aware of this and they dont buy KOs anymore. 

2. since some guys said that more of those *support* KOs were from China, i've to admit it: Yes. But considering the percentage,there are 8469 members here, while 129880 members on just one of the Chinese forum. so of course there would be more people who like KO there.

3. speaking of laws in China. just one word: suck. and the laws are modifying almost every year. but one thing for sure: KOs are illegal. Verdes has said that they are going to sue YJ several months ago. i think maybe they are still collecting relevant materials and proofs?:confused:


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## qqwref (Apr 14, 2010)

masterofthebass said:


> don't think you are aware of the massive investment it takes to make changes into molds for mass productions. Also, the use of pins is almost impossible to mass produce, making the clicking mechanism necessary to some degree.


Hang on. If it's so expensive, how come Chinese manufacturers can afford to repeatedly change their molds (or make new ones) and churn out new types of cubes every few months? I know the Chinese companies have cheaper labor, more stuff to sell, etc. but from here it looks more like Verdes isn't able to compete with the Chinese companies (by not being able to make new molds/cubes and change their designs as much as the Chinese companies can) and I think that might be because there are still only three types of cubes being sold.

The change for a pin mod isn't so huge - only the hidden center and the innermost +center need to be changed at all, and as for the pins themselves I'm sure an experienced person could add them by hand pretty quickly, and precisely made pins can probably be bought in bulk for next to nothing. (This assembly is surely less complicated than building the entire cube from boxes of parts!) I think the change would be very much worth it if you consider that at this point even collectors and people who average 10+ minutes are modding their 6x6s. To me, it just seems like a good business practice to integrate the mod into the V-cube production line, and even if it drives the prices up a little I'm sure the investment would be paid back once they advertise that the mod is already done in the newest models.

So basically: V-cubes started out as being the best cubes by far, and then (at least in the 6x6) they were good cubes that could be improved if you take the time, and at this point some people are buying the knockoffs before even getting a real V-cube. I think they can go back to the first scenario with some time and money, and it may not be easy, but it seems to me that it would be worth it for the reputation alone.


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## Neo63 (Apr 14, 2010)

My opinion: we have no right to tell people to not buy KOs, it's completely their own choice. However, they should be informed of the situation and the moral/ethical backgrounds of it.

However the problem is that YJ is improving the design, where as the V-Cube company has not made any changes, and they are cheaper, so I can see why some people are buying them. So it's basically moral vs money/how good it is.

And why isn't Verdes suing YJ/making new cubes? It's been two years...


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## endless_akatsuki (Apr 14, 2010)

What's with all this bickering?

It's China we're talking about. Everything there is questionable.


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## Henxu (Apr 15, 2010)

Wow, what a thread.
First of all, I am a Spanish student so, 1. I will make a lot of mistakes (grammar, etc...) 2. Using words that doesn't make any sense at all. ( Lack of vocabulary).
There are a lot of points of view about this topic.
One of them would be : KO should be forbidden because the companies which are selling them are making profit from the original sellers.
Another one : People buy KO without knowing it and they get pissed off when knowing it. Then, They will call us (Chinese people) bullsh*t, bastards, mo****f****s...Whatever it comes to their brain first. Because we've sold a KO.
Besides, there are people who buy KO, KNOWING THEY ARE KO, because they can't afford buying the original one.
And like these, many more can be said.

Looking back on earlier posts I've just read, Verdes's company got a monopoly on big cubes. I'm not aware of laws concerning this problem (buy I will study law @ university), but, I've been told that "monopolistic practice (google helped me...) in the UE is penalized by law" or something like that, however, taking into account that he has v-cubes patented, i don't know how will this result in.

anyway, why does that company have to sue? See for example, a big percentage of people use "pirate" versions of computers O.S. . Are the big O.S companies getting sued? Well, you can say : maybe. But that amount of money they haven't earnt by selling their products is nothing compared of their profits.


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## Stefan (Apr 15, 2010)

r_517 said:


> 129880 members on just one of the Chinese forum



Is that just cubers?! If so, ... holy s***!


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## r_517 (Apr 15, 2010)

StefanPochmann said:


> r_517 said:
> 
> 
> > 129880 members on just one of the Chinese forum
> ...



unfortunately yes
screen shot from http://bbs.mf8.com.cn





it says, 


> Today('s posts): 68, Yesterday('s posts): 1313. Most( posts on one day): 3046
> (Total) Threads: 45841, Posts: 931750, Members: 129881, Welcome new member okong2010


and the UID for this new member is 1256550


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## 4Chan (Apr 15, 2010)

!~

Oh my, no wonder.
I imagine it's very busy, what do they all talk about?


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## r_517 (Apr 15, 2010)

4Chan said:


> !~
> 
> Oh my, no wonder.
> I imagine it's very busy, what do they all talk about?



everything but seldom about KOs. looking at the newest 30 threads, 15 are about skills and methods, 6 about mods, 3 about theory, 2 about hardware, 1 about new regulation, and 3 off topics.


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## 4Chan (Apr 15, 2010)

So much knowledge being spread around.
>.o

I need to go back to my distant roots and learn chinese and lurk that forum.
(Or use a translator.)


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## Dene (Apr 15, 2010)

Olivér Perge said:


> StefanPochmann said:
> 
> 
> > LNZ said:
> ...



Cultural relativism is a complete and utter steaming pile of cockadookie. I mean that in the most disrespectful way possible (not to you, but to cultural relativism).



StefanPochmann said:


> Cubenovice said:
> 
> 
> > you are all missing a *very* important point.
> ...



Oh look New Zealand isn't covered. Although then again we might be included in Australia (not sure what the laws are with regards to that, but it might be likely that we have an agreement with Australian patents).


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## koreancuber (Jun 23, 2010)

actually, according to cubenjoy, the v-cube company is currently in the process of suing the YJ company, which can be found here, so yay for justice!


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## ~Phoenix Death~ (Jun 23, 2010)

Hi, Enjoy is a cube.



Enjoy a cube that was ambitious, we put the world's first 999 cube products and related kyubeuin YJ 999

Enjoy our up-side cube V-Cube patent infringement claims relating to the status of the current is coming.

999 YJ 999 cube cube world's first side of the product as a YJ patents registered in China have claimed to

Enjoy our cube position regarding the patent is not a problem, but the positions were driving in the number of

YJ current V-Cube side to side patent infringement claims and litigation currently in progress, YJ side is in a state.



Enjoy our cubes, to put it, of course, all the products that I'd like to kyubeodeulkke joy,

Currently both companies have a lot of issues in conflict situations are extremely difficult to position the product is sold.



YJ 999 sales of this cube is temporarily suspended.



Enjoy a small cube of our YJ999 currently in stock, so please contact us via telephone or bulletin board that we have here the last time the stock sale.



Enjoy all the effort will be a cube.

Thank you.





= Cube Enjoy


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## PeterNewton (Jun 23, 2010)

wtf did phoenix just say.. i dont even understand a word of it.

EDIT: just realized its a translation LOLOLOL


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## koreancuber (Jun 23, 2010)

I know, google translator is kinda messed up, but it's just talking about how cubenjoy thinks the YJ company was the first to make the 9x9x9, but for some reason, the v-cube company is suing the YJ company. and that's why the cubenjoy company can't sell anymore yj 9x9x9s.


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## ~Phoenix Death~ (Jun 23, 2010)

PeterNewton said:


> wtf did phoenix just say.. i dont even understand a word of it.
> 
> EDIT: just realized its a translation LOLOLOL



LOL. I'm not THAT asian...


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## beingforitself (Jun 23, 2010)

Dene said:


> If we are to compare an idea, namely intellectual property, to an asset, namely physical property, then we can clearly deduce that it is wrong to steal an idea, just as it is wrong to steal a bike.



Dene, given that you believe ideas and physical assets are ethically interchangeable, do you think it would be a good idea to extend patent monopolies to a person's entire lifetime, then permit them to be inherited and passed on to their children?


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## Mitch15 (Jun 23, 2010)

Dene said:


> Olivér Perge said:
> 
> 
> > StefanPochmann said:
> ...


+1


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## Gurplex2 (Jun 23, 2010)

I lost all respect for Verdes when he made his Dazzler.


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## ~Phoenix Death~ (Jun 23, 2010)

Gurplex2 said:


> I lost all respect for Verdes when he made his Dazzler.



I just laughed and woke my dog up.


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## Ton (Jun 23, 2010)

tjyahl said:


> if knock offs are illegal and everything why doesnt verdes just sue?? :confused: i personally like the knock offs better but everyone keeps complaining about how knock offs are ruining cubing and stuff and if thats how it is why doesnt verdes sue? my friend seth mentioned something about it being produced in different countries, but i dont see why that would make a difference. and everyone that hates on knock offs, no offense but just stop hating, i know verdes took his time to think of this great mech but if your in school and you help a kid with the answer your not going to get all pissed off cause he took your answer are you?



To chase all knock off factories , is more than a day time job, as a foreigner it is even more difficult to chase a factory in China. I know somewhat what SevenTowns is doing , but believe me , it is a lot of negative energy you need to invest a lot of time an effort just to close one factory and in the mean time others pops up. 

Bulk Import from China is what Mr Verdes could prevent, but today it is more the individual cuber who buy online and send them via mail. Which makes it very hard to prevent illegal imports


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## Carrot (Jun 23, 2010)

tjyahl said:


> if knock offs are illegal and everything why doesnt verdes just sue?? :confused: i personally like the knock offs better but everyone keeps complaining about how knock offs are ruining cubing and stuff and if thats how it is why doesnt verdes sue? my friend seth mentioned something about it being produced in different countries, but i dont see why that would make a difference. and everyone that hates on knock offs, no offense but just stop hating, i know verdes took his time to think of this great mech *but if your in school and you help a kid with the answer your not going to get all pissed off cause he took your answer are you?*



Yes I am......


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