# Fewest Moves: Tips and Techniques



## AvGalen (Sep 23, 2007)

I did my first ever fewest moves challenge at the US Open 2007 and got a DNF because I didn't write down my solution within the hour (I didn't know xyz-notation). It was a 48 or 49 moves solution and basically just a regular cross, f2l, last layer solve. Somehow I liked fewest moves and when it became a part of the weekly competition I always did it (with mixed results. 31/51 is a wide range). Somehow I always see good beginnings and manage to do a reasonable final part. My results lately have become pretty good with a best official result of 37 and 33 at the Polish Open 2007. Not good enough to win the event (the current WR-holder did 33 and 31), but good enough to make me the number 6 of the world. Not to bad considering I only know about 30 algorithms in total (keyhole and 4 look last layer) and that those were my 11th and 12th attempt ever (including official/unofficial competitions and practise). I don't consider myself an expert, but I think I am good enough to share some tips and techniques with all of you. If you know any other, feel free to share them and don't hesitate to ask me if you don't understand, have extra questions, or think I made a mistake.

OK, here comes the good stuff:

*Block building*.
Basically this means that you don't start with a cross but with a 2x2x3 block instead. Sometimes I do this by building a 2x2x2 block and then extend it to a 2x2x3 block. Other times I build a 1x2x3 block and attach it to another 1x2x3 block (just 3 centers with 2 edges). The advantage of block building is that you have a lot of freedom and even after you have build a 2x2x2 block you can extend it in 3 different directions giving you a lot of choice.
*Block building examples*: (Scramble with white on top, green on front)
Scramble1: D2 U' R D' U2 L' D' R2 B F2 R2 B' F L' D' B2 F2 D' U B2 F' D2 B2 D2 L2
I noticed the two pairs (yellow-red-blue, green-orange-yellow) and after some trying I found that the second pair could be made into a 2x2x2 block (U2 R2 L F2) and then into a 2x2x3 block (R B' R2 B' R) with B2 U2 that would have made Cross + 2 pairs in 11 moves. But I was not satisfied because that wouldn't give me a good continuation. After some more analyzing I found that inserting a B move in the beginning (U2 R2 becomes U2 R B R) would form another pair that could be used to form a 1x2x3 so I made the other 1x2x3 block and connected them (D2 L F2). This gave me a 2x2x3 block in 7 moves (or cross + 2 pairs in 8 moves with U2

*Keyhole*:
Sometimes it is usefull to use keyhole. That means you leave out a corner in the first layer and use it to insert edges in the middle layer with fewer moves. This is especially usefull if you can use it to insert a corner-edgepair.
*Keyhole example: *
Scramble1: D2 U' R D' U2 L' D' R2 B F2 R2 B' F L' D' B2 F2 D' U B2 F' D2 B2 D2 L2, perform U2 R B R D2 L F2 U2
As you can see, everything in the F2L is done except for 2 pairs. If you would do them 1 pair at a time it would take a lot of moves. with keyhole you only need 5: F R B2 R' F'. That means full F2L was done in 13 moves!

*Know full OLL, PLL and COLL: *
This is obvious, the more algorithms you know for the last layer the better. It is also important that you know OPTIMAL algs, not fingertrickfriendly2gen agls. I only know 10 OLL's and 6 PLL's (0 COLL) which is a big problem because I have to setup the last layer into 
*With OLL/PLL knowledge example*:
Scramble1: D2 U' R D' U2 L' D' R2 B F2 R2 B' F L' D' B2 F2 D' U B2 F' D2 B2 D2 L2, perform U2 R B R D2 L F2 U2 F R B2 R' F'.
OLL in 10 (N7): x' y R'L2DFD'F'L'FL'R 
PLL in 11 (P8): y2 B2 R' U' R B2 L' D L' D' L2 U
This would have made a total of 34 moves, better than the 37 I got with a more complicated ending.

*Edge control / Last Layer manipulation:*
If you have a corner-edgepair you can insert it in 3 ways most of the time. Experiment with the results of each way of inserting it. The results on the last layer (especially the orientation of edges) can be very important.
*Edge control example (easy):*
Scramble with R' F R F'. You could insert the pair with
1) F R' F' R to leave 4 edges oriented
2) U' F' U F to leave 2 opposite edges oriented
3) U2 F' U2 F to leave 2 adjacent edges oriented
*Last layer manipulation example (harder):*
Scramble1: D2 U' R D' U2 L' D' R2 B F2 R2 B' F L' D' B2 F2 D' U B2 F' D2 B2 D2 L2, perform U2 R B R D2 L F2 U2 F
Inserting the "pair" with R B2 R' F' is good, but leaves only 2 oriented edges. You could manipulate the last layer and orient more edges before inserting the "pair" by doing B' R B R' (manipulation) B2 R' U R U' F' (edge control). This cost 5 moves more, but it left me with a short OLL and PLL that i knew. (OLL (8) U' L' D' L U L' D L, PLL (10) R2 B' U D' R2 D U' B' R2 B')

*Write down your solution without cube rotations!*:
Sometimes you do algorithm one, rotate the cube and then do algorithm two. The end of algorithm one might be a turn (or several) of the same face that starts algorithm two. If you write down your solution without cube rotations this is much easier to notice and correct.
*No rotation example:*
Scramble with R2 B2 R F R' B2 R F' R y F U R U' R' F'.
Don't write down your solution like F R U R' U' F' y' R' F R' B2 R F' R' B2 R2 (15 moves)
Write it like this instead F R U R' U' F' F' L F' R2 F L' F' R2 F2 (15 moves) and correct it to F R U R' U' F2 L F' R2 F L' F' R2 F2 (14 moves)

*Cancellations:*
This is very related to the previous point. Basically it means that you try to save moves by blending several steps together. This can be done in very many ways. The following is just one of them. Sometimes you can perform algorithms in different ways U2 R2 U2 R2 U2 R2 is the same as R2 U2 R2 U2 R2 U2. If the previous step ended with a U move then starting with U2 is better. If the next step starts with a U move then starting with R2 is better.
*Cancellations example:*
Let's create the H-Perm U2 R2 U2 R2 U2 R2 U U2 R2 U2 R2 U2 R2 U' (14) can be shortened to U2 R2 U2 R2 U2 R2 U' R2 U2 R2 U2 R2 U' (13), but if you create it like R2 U2 R2 U2 R2 U2 U R2 U2 R2 U2 R2 U2 U' (14) it can be shortened to R2 U2 R2 U2 R2 U' R2 U2 R2 U2 R2 U (12). It could even be shortened to R2 U2 R U2 R2 U2 R2 U2 R U2 R2 (11).

*Inverse scramble:*
If you don't see a good start for the scramble you could scramble it in reverse. That means this scramble U2 F D becomes D' F' U2. Now find a good solution and write it down inverted. It will look very strange if you solve it like this, but it gives you two chances of finding a good start.
*Inverse scramble example:*
Scramble: L' B' L2 F B U R' B D' L2 B U' B2 U L U2 D2 L
Perform scramble as: L' D2 U2 L' U' B2 U B' L2 D B' R U' B' F' L2 B L
Find a solution like this
2x2x2 (7): L F2 L' F U R' U2
2x2x3 (7): L2 F2 D L' D2 F D
Cross + 3rd Pair (4): L F L F
4th Pair (5): L2 D F' D' F
OLL (6): B L D L' D' B'
PLL (10): U' F U' B2 U F' U' B2 U2 L2
Write down your solution as L2 U2 B2 U F U' B2 U F' U, B D L D' L' B', F' D F D' L2, F' L' F' L', D' F' D2 L D' F2 L2, U2 R U' F' L F2 L'

*Insertions:* (This might be the most advanced technique. It helps if you know something about solving a cube blindfolded.)
Sometimes it is better to do a 3-cycle of edges or corners in the middle of the solve than at the end. A 3-cycle of edges takes 9 moves when they are in the same layer (PLL) and even more when they are not. But if they are on the same slice it can often be done in 6 moves
*Insertions example:* 
Scramble: L' B' L2 F B U R' B D' L2 B U' B2 U L U2 D2 L
Cross (9): R2 U' R' B' L U L' D' U2
First 2 Pairs (3): B2 L B2
3rd Pair (4): D F D F' 
Last 5 corners (7): D2 L' D L D2 L' D'
As you can see, all corners are done and there are 5 edges that need to be cycled. Put numbered stickers on the first color of the following pieces
1 = yellow-red
2 = yellow-blue
3 = yellow-green
4 = yellow-orange
5 = green-orange
This list is the order of the cycle. Piece 1 goes to the location of piece 2, 2->3, 3-> 4, 4-> 5 and 5-> 1.
After that, do the scramble on a solved cube that has the stickers on it. Perform your solve and look for a point where 3 continuously numbered stickers are on the same slice or on the same face (permutation) and all stickers are on the same or opposite faces (orientation). If you find such a moment you can perform an algorithm that cycles these pieces (hopefully you even get cancellations at the beginning or end).
If you look carefully you can see that after the first six moves (R2 U' R' B' L U) pieces 1, 2 and 3 are in the S-slice with the correct orientation. They can be cycled in 6 moves (D2 F B' L2 F' B) so now the solution becomes 
Cross Part 1 (6): R2 U' R' B' L U
Edge-Cycle insertion 1 (6): D2 F B' L2 F' B
Cross Part 2 (3): L' D' U2
First 2 Pairs (3): B2 L B2
3rd Pair (4): D F D F' 
Last 5 corners (7): D2 L' D L D2 L' D'
Now only pieces 3, 4 and 5 are wrong.
A good moment to insert a cycle that solves pieces 3, 4 and 5 is just before the "Last 5 corners" because at that moment pieces 3, 4 and 5 are all on D-face with the correct orientation. They can be cycled in 9 moves (B2 D' L R' B2 R L' D' B2) so the final solution becomes
Cross Part 1 (6): R2 U' R' B' L U
Edge-Cycle insertion 1 (6): D2 F B' L2 F' B
Cross Part 2 (3): L' D' U2
First 2 Pairs (3): B2 L B2
3rd Pair (4): D F D F' 
Edge-Cycle inserstion 2 (9): B2 D' L R' B2 R L' D' B2
Last 5 corners (7): D2 L' D L D2 L' D'

P.S. don't think that these are lucky scrambles or specially prepared examples that never happen in real life.
Scramble1: D2 U' R D' U2 L' D' R2 B F2 R2 B' F L' D' B2 F2 D' U B2 F' D2 B2 D2 L2 was the first scramble at the Polish Open 2007
Scramble2: L' B' L2 F B U R' B D' L2 B U' B2 U L U2 D2 L was my solution to weekly competition 2007-32


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## joey (Sep 23, 2007)

From speaking to Per Fredlund, one of the masters of FM, there are a few extra things. Per is amazing, and once solved the cube in 19 moves, yes, that probably was the optimal solution!

Another approach is to solve edges first, while trying to gather corners. This is basically solving all edges in the shortest scramble, while trying to solve a few corners aswell. Then using insertions to correct the rest of the corners.

Also, orienting first can help. So orient all the edges first, while try to solve blocks/cross can help, as it will lead to shorter F2L pairs and a most likely easier F2L.

The last thing I can think of right now, is solving like a Domino. For those who don't have a Domino (2x3x3), It is the same as using only <UDR2F2L2B2> on a 3x3. To solve like a domino, you would first solve the E layer while orienting edges. You would then complete as much of the first layer and second layer. Then go back and finish it off with insertions.


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## ExoCorsair (Sep 23, 2007)

Very helpful post! *would +rep if the option were available here*


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## AvGalen (Sep 23, 2007)

joey, a few examples would be very helpful. Could you provide some?

Exo, what is +rep?


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## joey (Sep 24, 2007)

Well, this is his 19 move solve:
Scramble: D U' R' F B2 (R B2 R' U2)*4 B2 F2 U (D F D' B2)*4 F' D B' F R'
(Don't ask me why the scramble is like that, its how it was given)

His solution: R' B U' D F L' F2 L D2 L2 F2 D F2 D L2 U' R2 D2 R2

The thing is, it is hard to look back at a solution, because of cancelations / insertions.
I believe the first 8 moves orient edges and corners, which can then be solved like a Domino.(Althought its is a slightly non-pure domino finish apparently)

If you want to see more of his solutions, head on over to http://www.cubestation.co.uk/cs2/index.php?page=fmc/fmcnewsystem where you can look back at the archives to see his old solutions. He averages around 24moves most of the time. And he uses all the tricks arnaud says, and is a master at commutators!

I will see if he will join this forum!


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## AvGalen (Sep 24, 2007)

Do you have a crush on Per? Or is he your father? And are you sure that he averages 24 moves when there is a 1 hour time limit? And 19 moves was really bad because it could have been 17 according to Cube Explorer 

Seriously, people like Per, ZZ, Guus and probably Ryan Heise are so much better than I am that I wouldn't dream of calling myself an expert. I do seem to be really good at finding efficient beginnings. It would be great to have Per on this forum.

Oh, and a scramble like D U' R' F B2 (R B2 R' U2)*4 B2 F2 U (D F D' B2)*4 F' D B' F R' is given in some competitions to provide a long scramble with less room for mistakes. A long scramble supposedly gives more random scrambles and it is easier to see if competitors obey this rule: "E2e) The solution of the competitor must not be in any way related to the scrambling algorithm". If you have a 45 move scramble and a 37 move solution it is pretty easy to convince a judge that you did obey rule E2e.


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## ExoCorsair (Sep 24, 2007)

+rep is just a representation of how many good/useful posts a user has made, determined by other users, as seen on some other vBulletin forums.



joey said:


> I will see if he will join this forum!



I'm pretty sure he's already registered here.


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## joey (Sep 24, 2007)

AvGalen said:


> Do you have a crush on Per?


I didn't want people to know XD



AvGalen said:


> Or is he your father?


If so, he hasn't said anything yet 



AvGalen said:


> And are you sure that he averages 24 moves when there is a 1 hour time limit?


I think he does try stay within the 1 hour, but will somestimes get obsessed and do it for many more hours. I think he could sub-30 in an hour, not entirely sure.



AvGalen said:


> It would be great to have Per on this forum.


The next time he is on MSN, I'll speak to him.


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## pjk (Sep 24, 2007)

Very nice Arnaud, thanks! You have definitely improved very quickly with this stuff.

Per's ID on here I believe is "mrcage".

"+rep" is basically reputation. Users can give other users reputation points for basically anything they want, such as a helpful post. However, I didn't enable that on here since I didn't think it was necessary.


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## mrCage (Sep 24, 2007)

Brownie points and sledge hammers don't belong in a friendly nice forum like this 

-Per


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## AvGalen (Sep 24, 2007)

Welcome (back) Per, we seem to meet a lot online lately.

Have you had time to read the whole first post of this thread? I hope you will share some of your ideas with us.

I just noted that I forgot to mention this one (very obvious, but still)

*Don't restore the cross:* 
After/between corner-edge-pair-insertions there is no reason to keep restoring the cross. Most of the time the "solved pieces" are just fine where they are and you will probably save 2 or more moves (1 for restoring the cross, another 1 for repositioning it for the next pair)

*Don't restore the cross example:*
Scramble: L' B' L2 F B U R' B D' L2 B U' B2 U L U2 D2 L
Cross (9): R2 U' R' B' L U L' D' U2
First 2 Pairs (3): B2 L B2
2 pairs (4 pieces) in 3 moves is much better then 7 (R D2 R') (L B' L' B)

P.S. I would like a brownie, it is lunch time


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## mrCage (Sep 27, 2007)

joey said:


> From speaking to Per Fredlund, one of the masters of FM, there are a few extra things. Per is amazing, and once solved the cube in 19 moves, yes, that probably was the optimal solution!
> 
> Another approach is to solve edges first, while trying to gather corners. This is basically solving all edges in the shortest scramble, while trying to solve a few corners aswell. Then using insertions to correct the rest of the corners.
> 
> ...



Hi 

It is a common misconception that a "domino solve" should reduce to <UDR2F2L2B2>. It will also be equivalent to reduce to <U2D2RF2LB2> or <U2D2R2FL2B>. They're rotation invariants ...

My best advice for those just starting to embark on fewest moves solving would be:

- forget about using "standard" speed solving methods with a few optimisations and lucky cases

- think of it more like so: solve it in 2 stages where stage 1 solves as many pieces as possible as efficiently as possible, ie make a good skeleton. The situation now would typically not be good for normal continued solving. The second step is fixing the unsolved pieces, typically by inserting algorithms into the skeleton. 

This approach requires some knowledge about what are good skeletons?? I would say a good skeleton should leave no more than 2 easy cycles for insertion, unless the skeleton is VERY short. Leaving 5 unsolved corners (as a pure 5-cycle) is good because it breaks down to 2 3-cycles, with lots of options what cycle to do first. 5 unsolved corners where 1 or more is in correct position but wrongly oriented is typically bad. This would require 3 3-cycles to complete. There is similar considerations for cases where the skeleton solves all corners, not all edges. A skeleton leaving 3 unsolved edges and 3 unsolved corners is also good, though peronally i prefer working with corner cycle insertions. There is too many possibilities for making edge 3-cycle to be sure that what you are doing is anywhere near optimal insertion procedure ;-)

Making corner 3-cycles is INTUITIVE and requires almost no skill whatsoever!! Just apply stickers (numbered) to the corners to know the cycle order and orientation. We are not going to waste moves on doing a 3-cycle in 2 steps: permute then orient This will however require an understanding of commutators. I leave that for a later post 

PS! The only bad case with 4 unsolved corners is the case where they all just need to be twisted..

-Per


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## AvGalen (Sep 27, 2007)

> This will however require an understanding of commutators. I leave that for a later post


This is what they call a cliffhanger!

I don't have any problems with edge-cycles, insertions and commutators. I have no idea how to do corner-cycles. The alg I currently use (A-Perm) is pretty short and often has cancellations. However it requires orienting corners first. I only remember two old corner-cycle-commutators: (RUR'U')L' (URU'R') L and (URU'R') L' (RUR'U') L.

About the skeleton: What do you consider the worst acceptable skeleton? 5 corners unsolved, 5 edges unsolved or 5 corners and 5 edges unsolved? (and yes, I understand that that depends on the amount of moves it took to build the skeleton)
Please don't keep me waiting for this to long. I would like to be able to use it at Worlds.


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## mrCage (Sep 27, 2007)

Hi 

RUR'U' L' URU'R' L is already wasting moves ;-)

Breaking down that alg we have

RUR'U' L' URU'R' L = P Q P' Q' where
P=RUR'U', Q=L'

However, a shorter P would simply be B' R' B, yielding

B'R'B L' B' R B L

Alternatively one could move L-layer first, then it becomes:

L F R' F' L' F R F'

This should give some idea about how commutators work 

============

The worst acceptable skeleton would probably be one i didn't mention in my post: edge 4-cycle pluss corner 4-cycle.

>>Arrange all those 8 cubies on same layer so they're solved by a single turn, then undo the setup.

Alternatively, since the setup is bound to be a bit long:

>>Arrange 7 of the cubies on same layer so that a single turn pluss undoing setup either leaves a corner 3-cycle or an edge 3-cycle. Then try to insert that somewhere else in the new skeleton.

============

Note that the order of insertions has an effect. After some insertion we are working with a new skeleton ;-) A pre-emptive search takes time. I normally go for "best insertion first" 

2-flip on edges or 2/3 twist on corners can be solved by 2 inserted 3-cycles...

-Per

(edit)
The case with BOTH 5 unsolved edges and 5 corners is of course the worst. Inserting all that is pointless. I would solve the cube onto a better skeleton, by extension or restart from scratch ;-)


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## Johannes91 (Sep 27, 2007)

AvGalen said:


> I don't have any problems with edge-cycles, insertions and commutators. I have no idea how to do corner-cycles.


Now that's weird. Just use commutators. Ryan has good tutorials at http://www.ryanheise.com/cube/commutators.html.


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## AvGalen (Sep 28, 2007)

I will look into this on tuesday after I have moved and before Worlds. It will be a hectic week.


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## Marcell (Sep 30, 2007)

Talking about fewest moves tricks and tips, I'd also mention pseudo-blocks and premoves.
Knowing whole OLL, PLL, COLL is actually not that important. The shortest solutions are the intuitive ones with some inserted cycles. An algorithm cannot be optimized(aside from cancelling 1-2 moves at the beginning or the ending).


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## dbeyer (Dec 12, 2007)

Marcell, the corner commutators can be solved in a 9 move average. There aren't really that many corner cycles. It's just seeing everything from the proper angle. 

Since you're not blindfolded, Per is right, finding the best insertion and which one to do first can affect the other insertions.

You could have a 5-cycle of corners.
Lets say you took the 9 mover ferris-wheel, for both insertions. 18 moves to finish the corners. Yet, if you cycled differently, rather than cycling from the URB, say you cycled from the FDR, then you could wind up using only 17 moves. A pure 8 mover, and then a ferriswheel.

If you were to conjugate the 2 commutators into an optimized 5 cycle. It could actually work out that the cycle could become 15 moves, because of a cancelation, because both cycles have the same interchangeable slice per se.

I don't have actual examples at the moment.

From a blindfolded perspective, bound by a buffer, you'll get the 9 move average for each cycle. Yet you could pick how to cycle better sighted with an hour of alotted time. You could find the two optimal 8 move commutators.

ABCDE cycling from A for both cycles may take 18 moves (two ferris wheels)
BCDEA could take 17 (a ferris wheel and a pure commutator)
EABCD would be the optimal 16 move solution.

PS.
A Ferris wheel is the nickname of a special conjugation of a commuator, where there is a cancelation with the A or B and the setup (conjugate).


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## AvGalen (Dec 12, 2007)

When I made this tutorial I didn't know pseudo-blocks and premoves (they are tightly related). I don't have time to make a tutorial right now, so I am going to copy/paste some things from week 42:

Scramble:
*1. *B F U' B L D' F R2 U2 L F L U2 L2 B' F U (17 moves optimal solution, easier to apply multiple times)

Solution: *D' R2 F2 B' L F' D2 L B2 R L' D' R' D' B' D B2 L' D L B R' B' R D U2 B*
Explanation: Do Premoves *U2 B* so the scramble becomes *U2 B2 F U' B L D' F R2 U2 L F L U2 L2 B' F U*
1x2x3 block (1): *D'*
2x2x3 block (6): *R2 F2 B' L F'*
(the rest is not important, but might be interesting anyway so I included it anyway. The premove/pseudo-block is basically finished here, except for the undoing of them at the end)
Create remaining 2 pairs (7): *D2*
Cross + Last Layer Manipulation (14): *R . D R' D' B' D B2*
Insert 3rd pair (17): *L' D L*
Insert 4th pair (21): *B R' B' R*
Fix last layer leaving a 3 cycle (22): *D*
Undo premoves (24): *U2 B*
The 3 cycle can be inserted at the dot between move 8 and 9 as *R' L B2 R L' D2*. The first move completely cancels with move 8 and the last move changes move 9 from a *D* to a *D'*

It is pretty hard to explain this, but I will try:
1. Perform the scramble with white on top and green on front.
2. *D'* makes a perfect column of orange-blue on the left. It also makes a line of green with red-orange on both sides. Red and orange are opposite colors, so this green line is also correct. Together this makes a pseudo 1x2x3 block.
3. Realize that to turn this pseuse 1x2x3 block into a pseudo 2x2x3 block all that is necessary are two more edges in the S-slice.
4. Realize that the best two positions for those two edges are UL and UR because the pseudo 1x2x3 block can be positioned at Up-Front with the green line correctly placed.
5. *R2* puts an edge into the UR position with the correct orientation.
6. *F2* moves the pseudo-1x2x3 block out of the way for the next edge.
7. *B' L* puts an edge into the UL position with the correct orientation and relative position compared to the UR edge.
8. *F'* finishes the pseudo-2x2x3 block.
9. Now to find out how to do the premoves you need to see that the green line is alread positioned correctly. So all you need to do is find the shortest move sequence that positions the white line and the blue-orange column
10. *U2* positions the white line.
11. *B* positions the blue-orange column
12. Now that we know the premoves, undo all the moves (*B' U2 F L' B F2 R2 D* and undo the scramble.
13. Perform the premoves *U2 B* and do step 2 to 8 again. You can see that all pseudo-blocks are now real blocks.

And I want to warn everyone for larger corner-cycles. They can be very usefull, but because they will require quite a lot of moves (15, even with some cancellations) they are probably only usefull if you have a very short beginning that fixes all the edges. I think that is what Per calles a skeleton.


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## mrCage (Dec 19, 2007)

AvGalen said:


> When I made this tutorial I didn't know pseudo-blocks and premoves (they are tightly related). I don't have time to make a tutorial right now, so I am going to copy/paste some things from week 42:
> 
> Scramble:
> *1. *B F U' B L D' F R2 U2 L F L U2 L2 B' F U (17 moves optimal solution, easier to apply multiple times)
> ...



This is an example of a skeleton yes. Don't underestimate inserting corner 5-cycles. I once did it in 7 turns extra (!!!) after cancellations. First cancellation cancelled 7 turns, the second one cancelled 2 more turns. This is exceptionla though, and probably was due to overlooking something in the skeleton anyway 

A skeleton is any start that leaves cubies to be inserted. Proper insertions or just adding at the end ...

-Per


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## malcolm (Dec 21, 2007)

How do i solve a domino after reduction? can't figure out how without large numbers of moves


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## mrCage (Dec 21, 2007)

malcolm said:


> How do i solve a domino after reduction? can't figure out how without large numbers of moves



Hmm, this would have deserved a complete analysis in itself.

There are a few approaches one may take:

- blockbuilding
- focus on corners
- focus on edges

Hopefully one may achieve just 3 missing corners or 3 missing edges in rather short sequence, then find insertion (in domino group if possible).

With more extensive search (trying cleverly) the whole thing may just come together ;-)

- Per


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## malcolm (Dec 21, 2007)

Thankyou Per.
I would be interested in knowing the longest scramble everyone can find the optimal solution for more than 10% of the time? mine is 7-8 moves


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## AvGalen (Dec 22, 2007)

I think you should open a seperate topic for this, but for now:

What do you mean "after reduction"?

Not much has been published about the domino. Jaap doesn't even have a calculation about the "optimal solution"


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## malcolm (Dec 28, 2007)

After i have changed the cube into a domino. Someone mentioned this as a FM technique.


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## slncuber21 (Dec 29, 2007)

ok so i just tried my first ' fewest moves' solve. using my normal method, i got 120 moves  i dont think i am good at this....


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## AvGalen (Jan 1, 2008)

Turning the cube into a domino and then solving it would be an option. Let me know if you ever do it OK?

And using my normal method I use about 75 moves, but to get sub-30 you need a really advanced method and a lucky solve, or the tips and techniques in this topic.


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## slncuber21 (Jan 3, 2008)

ha! i got 117! lol still not that great.... maybe soon 

ps- is there a time limit for this? cuz i was thinking if you wrote down your moves on a sheet of paper then did the solve, it would take less moves since you know what you're doing.... maybe...


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## AvGalen (Jan 3, 2008)

There is a one hour time limit.
You can write down as many moves as you want (but you cannot use a paper with algorithms or a computer program)
You can solve the cube as often as you want during the solve and you can take back moves or do whatever you want
You can even use 3 cubes for experimenting.
But when you finally give your solution it should be written down clearly and you should be able to explain it if a judge ask you about it.


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## mrCage (Jan 4, 2008)

AvGalen said:


> There is a one hour time limit.
> You can write down as many moves as you want (but you cannot use a paper with algorithms or a computer program)
> You can solve the cube as often as you want during the solve and you can take back moves or do whatever you want
> You can even use 3 cubes for experimenting.
> But when you finally give your solution it should be written down clearly and you should be able to explain it if a judge ask you about it.



Hmmm. I use fmc companion most of the time if time is limited. It's an excellent time saver. You should rephrase "computer programs" to "computer solvers" IMHO, unless you really want this to be true competition format 

-Per


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## dbeyer (Jan 4, 2008)

I would have to agree with Per. I am sort of lacking on the cubes now adays. So, in order to have a visual representation of what my premoves should look like I use cube explorer, and apply the premoves like

performing U'L' on cube explorer for example. Then I'll see what I am aiming to solve.
I also write each step of the solution down on cube explorer. 

I am not using the solver, just the display and text features of the program.

Later,
DB


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## AvGalen (Jan 4, 2008)

Well, we are following the official WCA rules, so no computers are allowed. Using fmc companion saves time (as you indicate) so I really think that shouldn't be allowed. Using cube explorer instead of a physical cube to just make turns is not allowed either, but I don't have a problem with that personally.


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## mrCage (Jan 30, 2008)

dbeyer said:


> I would have to agree with Per. I am sort of lacking on the cubes now adays. So, in order to have a visual representation of what my premoves should look like I use cube explorer, and apply the premoves like
> 
> performing U'L' on cube explorer for example. Then I'll see what I am aiming to solve.
> I also write each step of the solution down on cube explorer.
> ...


 
I find the CubeExp "flattened" cube horrible to work with. For those who have java installed i can recommend

http://cubix.idi.ntnu.no/fmccomp23_per/fmccomp.html

The CSS is optimised for Internet Explorer and it has 2 cubes!!

- Per


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## AvGalen (Jan 30, 2008)

mrCage said:


> dbeyer said:
> 
> 
> > I would have to agree with Per. I am sort of lacking on the cubes now adays. So, in order to have a visual representation of what my premoves should look like I use cube explorer, and apply the premoves like
> ...


For those that like to follow the official rules like you have to in official competitions (and are supposed to in our weekly competition) I would recommend to do it without any computer help during the 1 hour. It is very educational to examine better solutions/insertions after the 1 hour though and a computer can be a great help for that.


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## Dcuber (Feb 14, 2008)

what's the main best method for least moves
petrus?


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## Johannes91 (Feb 14, 2008)

Dcuber said:


> what's the main best method for least moves
> petrus?


What kind of least moves, linear of FMC? In the latter you should use something that can take advantage of insertions, like Heise.


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## Dcuber (Feb 14, 2008)

Johannes91 said:


> Dcuber said:
> 
> 
> > what's the main best method for least moves
> ...


Just least # of moves
but thxs I'll try Heise


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## Johannes91 (Feb 15, 2008)

Dcuber said:


> Johannes91 said:
> 
> 
> > Dcuber said:
> ...


I assume you don't know the difference. In linear solving, you can't take back any moves, so it's similar to speedsolving (at least if you don't use much time). But in Dan's FMC and in official competitions, you have a long time to solve just one scramble and you're allowed to take moves back, rescramble your cube or even use several cubes. There are some techniques -- like insertions, pseudo-blocks, and using the inverse scramble -- that are not as well suited to linear solving.


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## fanwuq (Apr 12, 2008)

Can some one take pictures of how the cube looks like after certain steps and the move count? thanks.
I'm quite bad at using commutators to solve corners. I just do petrus/heise to build F2L in 20 some moves and continue with fridrich to end at about 45-50. Cycling and orienting corners at the same time is confusing for me.


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## AvGalen (Apr 17, 2008)

fanwuq: Just take a solved cube, perform the scramble, perform the moves from the solution
Most of the time the moves from the solution are written something like this:
2x2x2: A B C D
2x2x3: E F G H I
Triple X-Cross: J K L . M
Finish F2L: N O P Q R S
Leave 3 corners: T U V W X Y Z
Insert 3 corners at . (cancels L and part of M): L' a b c d e f M2


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## Paiev (Apr 29, 2008)

Alright, I figured it was best to post this here:

I'm looking for some advice on improving my FMC. I did a solve a few hours ago and it was 38 turns, which while not necessarily bad, is not as good as I'd like. Here's the solve:

Scramble: R' L' U R2 U B' U' L' F2 D U F2 B L' U' B2 F L' R' U R2 U2 F2 R B

Solution:
Block building: F2 R' B2 U F D' R2 
Orient two corners: D' B D B' D' B U' B' D B D' B' D B
More block building: F2 R2 U' R F' 
Edges, then corners with commutators: L' U2 B' U2 B L2 D L' U' L D' L'

Besides replacing the 14 turn (with cancellations) orienting corners commutator with the 12 turn optimal alg that I just learned, how would you improve this? What are your thoughts? 

Also, how do you determine where something should be inserted (i.e. how do you spot a place where an alg can be inserted with a large number of cancellations)?

Thanks


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## MistArts (Aug 8, 2008)

Paiev said:


> Alright, I figured it was best to post this here:
> 
> I'm looking for some advice on improving my FMC. I did a solve a few hours ago and it was 38 turns, which while not necessarily bad, is not as good as I'd like. Here's the solve:
> 
> ...


Put colored stickers (cut up post-its) on the cube to mark where the remaining stickers go. Then solve the cube and scramble it. Now go through every moves and try and find moves that at the beginning and/or end of the alg/commutator that cancels out. Go through every move and use the best one.


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## nitrocan (Aug 14, 2008)

I've read insertions, but seeing that they need to be correctly oriented, it looks like it is a very small possibility that during the solve they will be on the same slice, and oriented correctly, or am I getting something wrong?


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## MistArts (Aug 14, 2008)

nitrocan said:


> I've read insertions, but seeing that they need to be correctly oriented, it looks like it is a very small possibility that during the solve they will be on the same slice, and oriented correctly, or am I getting something wrong?



They don't need to be on the same slice or oriented in anyway. Commutators ftw.


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## nitrocan (Aug 14, 2008)

so if i dont know commutators, i probably suck at fmc right?


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## MistArts (Aug 14, 2008)

nitrocan said:


> so if i dont know commutators, i probably suck at fmc right?



No.... They are easy to learn. And I can get 30-50 moves solves with Fridrich/Petrus method....


cmhardw said:


> Haha what about:
> 
> Sock Shoe Sock' Shoe'
> 
> ...


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## AvGalen (Aug 14, 2008)

Simple example: R (U' L' U) R' (U' L U)
Simplest example: M U2 M' U2

Also simple, but harder to find
(R' D2 R) U (R' D2 R) U'
(R' D2 R) U2 (R' D2 R) U2
(R' D2 R) U (R' D2 R) U'
etc

And you don't need insertions/commutators to get pretty decent results. I got my 33 move official solution before I even knew about insertions and commutators. Just be original and pause between every move you do. Don't blindly apply an alg you know.

But 30 moves with Fridrich seems impossible unless you get a really really lucky F2L, a short OLL and a PLL-skip. Same for Petrus, 30 moves only happens when you get very lucky.


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## MistArts (Aug 14, 2008)

AvGalen said:


> Simple example: R (U' L' U) R' (U' L U)
> Simplest example: M U2 M' U2
> 
> Also simple, but harder to find
> ...



I got 28 with a PLL skip (kind of worked for) with Petrus in one of the weekly competitons.

I just dugged it out....

Scramble: D' U2 L2 R' U' B' U R2 B2 D' R2 B' F2 D' L' B' U2 B' L' R' F2 D L2 D' R D U2 B2 F R B' F U L' R' U2 L D U' R' U2 R' F' L2 R2 

Solution: L' D R B2 U' R2 F' B' U' B F2 y2 F' U' F U2 R U y' l F U ' F' R' F R U l' y R U' (28)

Explanation:
2x2x2: L' D R B2 U' R2 (6)
2x2x3: F' B' U' B F2 (11)
Pseudo F2L: y2 F' U' F U2 R U (17)
OLL: y' l F U' F' R' F R U l' y (26)
Undo Premove: R U' (28)


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## nitrocan (Aug 14, 2008)

do you just come up with the commutators during the solve, or you just know what to do already?


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## MistArts (Aug 14, 2008)

nitrocan said:


> do you just come up with the commutators during the solve, or you just know what to do already?


 They are intuitive. Take X Y X' Y' as a commutator. X Solves one piece. Y replaces that piece or push it out. X' solves the pusher and Y' pulls back.

It basically Insert, replace, Uninsert, unreplace.


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## nitrocan (Aug 14, 2008)

i know what commutators are, but i just suck at them. for example, if i were to do a 3 edge cycle and orient two of the edges, i would never be able to do that. (any hints? ) and if they are in separate layers, then its just impossible)


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## AvGalen (Aug 14, 2008)

MistArts said:


> AvGalen said:
> 
> 
> > Simple example: R (U' L' U) R' (U' L U)
> ...


No, that wasn't Petrus. Petrus doesn't use premoves. And getting a PLL skip would be lucky.


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## nitrocan (Aug 15, 2008)

for example, how would i cycle DF FR and UR, and change the orientation of UR and FR (lets say the direction of the cycle doesn't matter)


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## AvGalen (Aug 15, 2008)

I wouldn't do it on that location. The shortest commutator I could find was R (U' R2 L2 D) R' (D' L2 R2 U)


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## ErikJ (Aug 15, 2008)

u M D' L D M" D L'
or
U' M2 D R' D' M2 D R D' U


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## nitrocan (Aug 15, 2008)

i don't understand how you got these, can you explain?


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## ErikJ (Aug 15, 2008)

I made them? they are commutators. it's really easy to insert edge cycles because M can cancel with an L or and R move. so instead of being 2 moves it's only 1.


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## nitrocan (Aug 15, 2008)

i mean what is the logic between that algorithm? did you do a 3 cycle with setup moves?


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## ErikJ (Aug 15, 2008)

I'll explain the second one.....U' M2 D R' D' M2 D R D' U

U' lines up FD with RU

M2 puts FD at UB (RU)

D R' D' replaces the UB slot with the other edge (FR)

M2 undoes the first M2 which places the UB edge (FR) at the FD slot

D R D' undoes the 3 moves used to put FR at UB 

U' undoes the setup move


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## AvGalen (Aug 15, 2008)

R (U' R2 L2 D) R' (D' L2 R2 U) = R (U' M2 U) R' (U' M2 U).
(P = R, Q = U' M2 U)

I can't explain other than that I used intuition and by referring you to any good commutator tutorial


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## MistArts (Aug 15, 2008)

AvGalen said:


> MistArts said:
> 
> 
> > AvGalen said:
> ...



Maybe Petrus doesn't use premoves, but I do. Lucky is part of Petrus. And it took a few tries to get that LL.

EDIT: I just notice that I beat you that week....


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## cubeRemi (Oct 14, 2008)

I am trying to solve domino style, and I'd like some help.

this weeks scramble: R' U2 F2 L2 D2 U2 R' B2 L R U L' B2 F2 U B D' U B' R' F2

solution: z' UL'x' URUR' y RUR'U'R'FRF' y'UF' U2 B2 U FB'U2 F'B L2 F' B2U2 B2U2 B2 F2 
(32) ( watch at: http://fmc.mustcube.net/fmccomp.php ) 
this is not even a real solution, it leaves 3 corners unsolved but permuted...
apart from the last 3 corners can someone give me some advice? 


z' UL'x' URUR' (6) I think this is a nice start, 3 E-layer edges solved + 3 pairs.

y RUR'U'R'FRF' y' ( 7) orient 2 pairs

UF' U2 B2 U FB'U2 F'B L2 ( 11 ) building + M'F2MF2 commutator. 

F' * U2 F2 (3) place blocks/pais. 

* insert this “alg” B2U2 B2U2 B2U2, cancel moves ( + 4 moves ) 

how could this have been done better, domino style? should I worry less about breaking up pairs? should I solve les and insert more? 
pleas give me some tips. 

Remi


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## cubeRemi (Oct 18, 2008)

come on you FMC guys!!


could someone give some examples of a domino solve??


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## Swordsman Kirby (Oct 18, 2008)

First of all, doesn't this look so much nicer as opposed to rotation-ridden notation?:

R U' B D B D' L B L' B' L' D L D' B R' B2 L2 B R L' B2 R' L U2 R' L2 B2 L2 B2 L2 R2 

Second of all, your solution is pretty screwed. Time to go back to one of the steps and try another approach.


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## nigtv (Nov 30, 2009)

I personally find it very hard to see cancellations with rotations in my solve, but that's just me...

EDIT: this is one of the best threads I've seen on this entire forum, I think it deserved the bump, even if its >1 year!


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## Boxcarcrzy12 (May 23, 2010)

dumb question, is R2 one move or two?


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## Cyrus C. (May 23, 2010)

Boxcarcrzy12 said:


> dumb question, is R2 one move or two?



It depends how you're counting it. In HTM (half turn metric), which is standard, it counts as one move. In QTM (quarter turn metric) it counts as two moves.

In HTM you count a 90° turn or a 180° turn as 1 move.

In QTM you count a 90° as one turn.

In both of these a slice move counts as two moves. STM, which counts a slice turn as one move but follows the rules of HTM is also very popular. HTM is still the official one however.

EDIT: Woah! I thought this was the OAQT. It's one move.


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## Kirjava (May 23, 2010)

Boxcarcrzy12 said:


> dumb question, is R2 one move or two?




E2d, 12a


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## Boxcarcrzy12 (May 24, 2010)

Cyrus C. said:


> Boxcarcrzy12 said:
> 
> 
> > dumb question, is R2 one move or two?
> ...





Thanks Much


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## CuBeOrDiE (Jun 7, 2010)

Hey guys. I just started Heise yesterday and I have a question about it; seemed appropriate to post it here. I can solve the cube like Ryan said, but in his step 3 (where you solve remaining 5 edges and 2 corners) I am having some trouble. I usually either solve all edges and one corner and then solve the remaining 4 corners using two commutators OR I solve 2 corners but end up with two edges swapped, which I can't solve while preserving my already solved pair of corners. In other words, I am not efficient at this step. Could anyone give me a few pointers or an example solve or summing?


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## deepSubDiver (Jun 7, 2010)

I separate this step into two steps:
Building a 2x2x1 block on U should be no problem, the next thing I do is pairing a corner and an edge while permuting the remaining edges. This leaves me with a corner commutator as well and is not painfully less efficient. Sometimes, you find a nicer solution to do it in one step, though. This never happened to me during speedsolves, though ;P


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## CuBeOrDiE (Jun 7, 2010)

I've been trying that, sometimes works fine, sometimes I have difficulty.


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## KboyForeverB (Sep 26, 2010)

very helpful


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## ilikecubing (Dec 2, 2010)

Thanks,really nice

Is it true that we dont get to touch the cube in FMC


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## Mike Hughey (Dec 2, 2010)

ilikecubing said:


> Thanks,really nice
> 
> Is it true that we dont get to touch the cube in FMC



No, of course you can manipulate the cube in FMC. For the WCA Fewest Moves event, you're allowed up to 3 cubes, and you may use them to your heart's content.

There are a couple of things I can think of that might have led to this idea. One is that, for "linear fewest moves", you're not allowed to take back moves - every move counts. So you're not allowed to touch the cube except to apply your solution. But this is not an official event - it's just an event that has been run in many unofficial competitions (and is rather fun).

Another thing that might contribute to this idea might be my fault: we speculated on what would be required to do an "official blindfolded fewest moves" solve. For that, since the regulations say in general for blindfolded events that you can't apply moves to the cube until you've donned the blindfold, you would have to work out your entire fewest moves solution without touching the cube, then pull the blindfold on and write the solution down. The idea was that you could make moves on the cube after pulling on the blindfold, but that really wouldn't be much help anyway, so it amounts to not being able to touch the cube for blindfolded FMC. But this is just a (very) silly idea that we had, and has nothing to do with any normal FMC competition.

For the normal event, you're allowed to make moves on the cube all you want for FMC.


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## kinch2002 (Dec 2, 2010)

Mike Hughey said:


> Another thing that might contribute to this idea might be my fault: we speculated on what would be required to do an "official blindfolded fewest moves" solve. For that, since the regulations say in general for blindfolded events that you can't apply moves to the cube until you've donned the blindfold, you would have to *work out your entire fewest moves solution without touching the cube*, then pull the blindfold on and write the solution down. The idea was that you could make moves on the cube after pulling on the blindfold, but that really wouldn't be much help anyway, so it amounts to not being able to touch the cube for blindfolded FMC. But this is just a (very) silly idea that we had, and has nothing to do with any normal FMC competition.


When I did FMCBLD I touched the cube during tracing/memorization, because I thought it was just that you can't apply moves. Surely you mean that?


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## Mike Hughey (Dec 2, 2010)

kinch2002 said:


> When I did FMCBLD I touched the cube during tracing/memorization, because I thought it was just that you can't apply moves. Surely you mean that?


 
Uh, yes, actually, you're right. Sorry - my fault.


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## ilikecubing (Dec 22, 2010)

i didnt quite get that...so we can touch the cube but making moves on it is not allowed at all,but if it goes this way then how do we know that which OLL,PLL will come up?


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## Cubenovice (Dec 22, 2010)

They are discussing BLINDFOLD FMC... a *very* rare unofficial event.

In regular FMC you have one hour to play with up to three seperate cubes and you can twist and turn as much as you want.
Goal is to write down a final solution which is a short as possible.


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## ilikecubing (Dec 22, 2010)

Oh! cool this looks pretty interesting,i'll surely try it some day,but why 3 cubes,isn't 1 cube enough?


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## Cubenovice (Dec 22, 2010)

Sometimes it can be usefull to try moves on a different cube than the one you are actually solving.
This makes it easier to track where pieces go and you do not risk messing up your "main" cube when you make an error.

They also come in handy for checking your scramble, I typically scramble two cubes and (too) often I find that they are not the same...
Imagine working with just one cube and solving a wrongly executed scramble!

There is even more than the three cubes, you are allowed to use little stickers to highlight certain pieces / sticker so it is easier to look for insertions.

I reccomend reading this whole thread, the FMC article in the wiki and the FMC home thread to get a good idea what FMC is all about.
I am nit very good at it but still I find FMC a really rewarding cubing discipline.


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## Olivér Perge (Jan 25, 2011)

Arnaud! Would you be so kind to edit the NISS method into the OP? It would help a lot of us!

Thanks!


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## MarcelP (Feb 26, 2013)

I am normally not about bumping old topics. But the first post in this topic is so excellent that I just had to do it. Thanks mr van Galen. I have printed out all your examples and will go over them a few times. This is great stuff!!


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## Luis (Mar 12, 2013)

I'm learning FMC now and have come across this thread. I find a couple of things missing that I'd like to mention:

1) Some examples of a beautiful technique to insert a commutator that "doesn't solve any piece but just cycle unsolved pieces with many cancellations" can be seen in this same forum here. I love it. 

2) Concerning the shortest existing edge commutator, don't forget that it can be expressed in four different forms. This widens the possibilities for cancellations. For example:

*R' L F2 R L' U2* 

produces identical results than

*R' F2 R L' U2 L*, 
*F2 R L' U2 R' L* and 
*L F2 R L' U2 R'*


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## patrickrib (Aug 16, 2013)

*Heise build 4 squares method*



Paiev said:


> Alright, I figured it was best to post this here:
> 
> I'm looking for some advice on improving my FMC. I did a solve a few hours ago and it was 38 turns, which while not necessarily bad, is not as good as I'd like. Here's the solve:
> 
> ...



Hi, Paiev.

I' m a beginner in fewest moves and find an interesting way to begin the FM using a piece of the Heise method (http://www.ryanheise.com/cube/heise_method.html). The endings of this method I think is more complicated.

I find out one good solution in about 20 minutes as follow:

Scramble: R' L' U R2 U B' U' L' F2 D U F2 B L' U' B2 F L' R' U R2 U2 F2 R B

1st SQUARE - F2 R' B2 U
2nd SQUARE - F D'
SAVE MOVE FOR THE 3RD SQUARE - R2 B
3rd SQUARE - U'
4RD SQUARE - F2 R2 U'
3 CORNERS - F R F2
FINAL F2L - U F U' F' U2 L' U' L - 23 (NORMAL F2L, ONLY TURNING THE U FACE)
U2 L F2 R' F' R F' L' - 31 (OLL - SAME AS r U2 R' U' R U' r')
PLL SKIP

Hope help someone.


For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. John 3:16


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## Ollie (Aug 16, 2013)

patrickrib said:


> U2 L F2 R' F' R F' L' - 31 (OLL - SAME AS r U2 R' U' R U' r')
> PLL SKIP



Was this intentional?


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## patrickrib (Aug 18, 2013)

Ollie said:


> Was this intentional?



No, I think was lucky, cause in solution of the 3 CORNERS (F R F2), first time I do only R F' and get a solution about 36, with some insertions.


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## AFatTick (Jan 22, 2014)

Do they give you the scramble in a competition solve? Just wondering xD


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## Mike Hughey (Jul 8, 2014)

I just went searching for this post, and I wanted to put it somewhere easy to find so I don't ever have to spend an hour searching for it again. I think it fits nicely in this thread.



irontwig said:


> Here's some movecounts that I gathered from experience, imo it's very useful to know what's a good start and how many moves you can expect to finish up in. Feel free to correct and such.
> 
> Some movecounts for good starts:
> 
> ...



I would love to see move count goals from other good FMC solvers out there.


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## porkynator (Jul 8, 2014)

Mike Hughey said:


> I just went searching for this post, and I wanted to put it somewhere easy to find so I don't ever have to spend an hour searching for it again. I think it fits nicely in this thread.
> 
> 
> 
> I would love to see move count goals from other good FMC solvers out there.


That's useful! My movecount averages/goals are similar for insertions. For blockbuilding I'd say
- 2x2x2 in 4 hard (also considerong that the worst optimal case is like 8 iirc); my goal is around 5-6, but it depends on the continuation;
- 2x2x3 in 10 is also good for me, but only if there aren't too many bad edges
- for F2L-1 13-14 is good if there are 2 bad edges; if all edges are oriented, even 16 may be good for me; with 4 bad edges I'd throw away even a 12 moves one, unless some other random blocks appear while orienting edges;
- 1x2x3 in around 6 moves;
- I almost never complete F2L without influencing LL


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## Mike Hughey (Jul 8, 2014)

Thank you!


porkynator said:


> - I almost never complete F2L without influencing LL


I'm starting to realize now just how important this is.


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## abunickabhi (Dec 25, 2022)

An important daily resource shared by a top FMCer.


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