# Haiyan Zhuang banned for 1-3 years



## Kirjava (Aug 30, 2010)

Give this a read

I think 1 year is very harsh, considering he didn't cheat - just went a bit crazy. I could understand a year if this wasn't the first time he'd been punished, but maaan. A year is a very long time. Enough to put someone off competing. Seems counter productive to me.

This is assuming he'll give a public apology. If he doesn't, I can see him really going for the CCA thing. Gotta do something in 3 years


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## Toad (Aug 30, 2010)

I think it's good that he is getting punished because nobody likes a meany 

But I do agree, 1 year is a long time... Oh well, can't be changed now I guess.


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## nitrocan (Aug 30, 2010)

WCA said:


> Rule 2k3: Mr. Zhuang has repeatedly threatened physical violence against WCA delegates and competition organizers in an effort to coerce them into meeting his demands.




What? lol


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## RCTACameron (Aug 30, 2010)

I really hope that he doesn't rebel against the WCA and make Chinese cubers part of the CCA instead...

That would just cause friction between them, and mean that some WRs wouldn't be true.


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## Faz (Aug 30, 2010)

RCTACameron said:


> I really hope that he doesn't rebel against the WCA and make Chinese cubers part of the CCA instead...
> 
> That would just cause friction between them, and *mean that some WRs wouldn't be true.*



Huh?

Also, I agree with Kirjava, 1 year is pretty harsh. I was expecting something more along the lines of a 3 month suspension.


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## jiggy (Aug 30, 2010)

Wow, 1 year does seem a bit steep! On the other hand, I'm sure the WCA looked at all of the facts and made an informed decision. I don't have time to read at the moment, but I'll give it a look over later.

But yeah, I have no doubt at all now that the CCA will become a big thing over this year. Perhaps we'll never see Haiyan at a WCA comp again?


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## RCTACameron (Aug 30, 2010)

fazrulz said:


> RCTACameron said:
> 
> 
> > I really hope that he doesn't rebel against the WCA and make Chinese cubers part of the CCA instead...
> ...



I mean that if there was a Chinese cuber only part of the CCA, who got a WR, the WCA wouldn't acknowledge it as a WR, when it is.

Sorry, I should have elaborated on that.


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## Kirjava (Aug 30, 2010)

I just remembered.

Shane Rowland had a solve retroactivly DNF'd for cheating on it, but never got any sort of punishment.

...what?


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## PhillipEspinoza (Aug 30, 2010)

He'll be PISSED when he reads this. I wouldn't wanna be in the same room as him when he finds this out. I imagine that Hitler video.

I personally think it's ridiculous, and I'm interested to see what these threats of physical violence are. I mean, I think 3 years would be suitable if he actually carried through with those threats but I wonder how serious they were.

What if he pulls a Matyas and still has WR 3 years later anyway.


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## r_517 (Aug 30, 2010)

fazrulz said:


> RCTACameron said:
> 
> 
> > I really hope that he doesn't rebel against the WCA and make Chinese cubers part of the CCA instead...
> ...



check my fb


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## Tim Major (Aug 30, 2010)

jiggy said:


> But yeah, I have no doubt at all now that the CCA will become a big thing over this year. Perhaps we'll never see Haiyan at a WCA comp again?



How do we know that everyone will follow him? Even if they do, well... I don't see the CCA becoming too big.



Spoiler



[20:04] <Tim_Major|dinner> [19:37] <Kirjava> "Mr. Zhuang will not be able to compete in WCA events for three years from September 1, 2010. Issuing the above noted apology before October 1, 2010 will reduce the term of the ban by two years." 
[20:04] <Tim_Major|dinner> WUT 
[20:04] <Tim_Major|dinner> :'( 
[20:05] <aronpm> why so sad 
[20:05] <Tim_Major|dinner> who cares if he's a dick head 
[20:05] <Kirjava> uhm 
[20:05] <Kirjava> WCA does 
[20:05] <aronpm> the WCA does obviously 
[20:05] <Tim_Major|dinner> he's an amazing cuber, I wanna see him compete sooner 
[20:05] <Kirjava> he shouldn't be able to be a dick 
[20:05] <Tim_Major|dinner>  
[20:05] <aronpm> also everyone who he was a dick to? 
[20:05] *** Tim_Major|dinner is now known as Tim_Major 
[20:05] <aronpm> and people who care about people not being dicks? 
[20:05] <Tim_Major> but 3 years... 
[20:05] <Kirjava> Tim_Major|dinner: his cubing ability has nothing to do with it 
[20:06] <CameronH> I need help with roux on sq1. I cant seem to do L/R edges? 
[20:06] <Tim_Major> Kirjava: but it seems harsh that he would get the same amount of years as Matyas 
[20:06] <Kirjava> CameronH: M2 and U perm 
[20:06] <Kirjava> Tim_Major: indeed 
[20:06] <aronpm> Tim_Major: it's a long time yeah, but I support the WCA's decision to suspend him 
[20:07] <aronpm> althought not for that length of time 
[20:07] <Tim_Major> 1/2 a year 
[20:07] <Tim_Major> I would be happy with 
[20:07] <Tim_Major> then again 
[20:07] <Tim_Major> we don't know the full story 
[20:07] <Tim_Major> neccesarily* 
[20:07] <aronpm> I would say 1 year, down to 3 months with apology 
[20:07] <CameronH> Ya thanks Kirjava im learning from an old post of yours. Just realised what i was doing wrong 
[20:08] <Tim_Major> do you guize mind if I copy paste some of this? 
[20:09] <aronpm> where are you pasting it? 
[20:09] <Tim_Major> the thread 
[20:09] <aronpm> uh go ahead



Remember, we don't know exactly what was said/done by Haiyan, we only know bits. It's hard to comment on the fairness of this sentence, when we don't know the full story.

Haiyan, if you read this, (I realised you do browse these forums) I really hope, after the punishment is finished, you keep cubing, and attending WCA competitions.

I find this way too harsh, but as I have said already, I can't really comment.

Edit: "Given the lack of cooperation by competitor 2008ZHUA01, his direct attempts at manipulating the investigation by the IAC, his tampering of witnesses during the investigation by the IAC, his threats of violence, and his general disruptiveness and selfish behaivor, the WCA is putting forth the following actions:"
That completely changes my view. Still a bit harsh, but why would he do this? This would just make his case worse.


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## PhillipEspinoza (Aug 30, 2010)

r_517 said:


> fazrulz said:
> 
> 
> > RCTACameron said:
> ...



"Haiyan Zhuang got banned for 3 years. (He just promised he would never apologize to anyone.) Actually whether 1 year or 3 years makes no difference, coz he had established China Cube Association (http://zkx0h1.chinaw3.com/) and is persuading China Sports Administration to make WCA illegal in China."


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## nck (Aug 30, 2010)

This is pretty ridiculous IMO.

He will just be even more pissed and further refuse to cooperate with the WCA and stuff....we might very possibly never see him again even after the 1 year suspension.

I don't really care now about what had happened between Haiyan and the WCA, all I know is that he had been such an inspiring figure in the BLD event. I would hate to see him go.


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## r_517 (Aug 30, 2010)

PhillipEspinoza said:


> ...



just wanna say, your fb link doesn't exist


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## onionhoney (Aug 30, 2010)

I am not surprised by this at all. To tell the truth he deserves it.


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## aronpm (Aug 30, 2010)

r_517 said:


> fazrulz said:
> 
> 
> > RCTACameron said:
> ...




Hopefully the CSA won't make WCA illegal in China, I don't think anyone (except Haiyan and his followers) would like to see Chinese competitors restricted from competing.


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## Faz (Aug 30, 2010)

Wtf I feel sorry for the Chinese competitors wanting to compete in wca comps.


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## nitrocan (Aug 30, 2010)

PhillipEspinoza said:


> r_517 said:
> 
> 
> > fazrulz said:
> ...



How exactly can he make WCA illegal in China? And why would Chinese cubers want to compete in a league where only national records can be set?


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## RCTACameron (Aug 30, 2010)

PhillipEspinoza said:


> r_517 said:
> 
> 
> > fazrulz said:
> ...



I doubt he will get very far...

But, if somehow the WCA was illegal in China, that would change international speedcubing forever...


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## Kirjava (Aug 30, 2010)

I thought this length of time would lead to getting the CCA up and running properly. I can't help but think a better compromise would be available.

This divide is bad news.


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## r_517 (Aug 30, 2010)

nitrocan said:


> 1. How exactly can he make WCA illegal in China?
> 
> 2. And why would Chinese cubers want to compete in a league where only national records can be set?



1. Check my fb again

2. No person in China wants the facebook, youtube, twitter etc to be banned, but they have been banned for years


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## onionhoney (Aug 30, 2010)

Kirjava said:


> I thought this length of time would lead to getting the CCA up and running properly. I can't help but think a better compromise would be available.
> 
> This divide is bad news.



http://bbs.mf8.com.cn/viewthread.php?tid=60506

Take a look at this. They're going to hold CCA competitions in September.:fp


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## r_517 (Aug 30, 2010)

onionhoney said:


> Kirjava said:
> 
> 
> > I thought this length of time would lead to getting the CCA up and running properly. I can't help but think a better compromise would be available.
> ...



Damn i need a proxy to visit MF8:fp

EDIT: just checked it. WHAT THE FUUUUUUUUK!


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## Kirjava (Aug 30, 2010)

How many rounds of BLD does it have?


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## onionhoney (Aug 30, 2010)

Kirjava said:


> How many rounds of BLD does it have?



There is definitely NO limit if Mr.Zhuang would like to have more rounds.


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## AbelBrata (Aug 30, 2010)

fazrulz said:


> RCTACameron said:
> 
> 
> > I really hope that he doesn't rebel against the WCA and make Chinese cubers part of the CCA instead...
> ...



Agree, i thought few months is enough... I told Haiyan to accept the punishment, because I didn't think it's gonna be that long. But hey what can we do now. The decision is already made... it's not gonna change anymore.

I just hope Haiyan won't ended up like Matyas... Is Matyas already back competing?


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## AbelBrata (Aug 30, 2010)

ZB_FTW!!! said:


> Haiyan, if you read this, (I realised you do browse these forums) I really hope, after the punishment is finished, you keep cubing, and attending WCA competitions.



I don't know why... but I don't think so. 3 years or event only 1 year is enough to wipe off his passion for cubing.


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## dillonbladez (Aug 30, 2010)

Yeah. I think That 1 year, no apology, 3-6 months, w/apology
If it were me, I would just stop cubing. And possibly never cube again.

I hope he doesn't quit cubin' though. He was a very fast one.


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## AbelBrata (Aug 30, 2010)

Kirjava said:


> I thought this length of time would lead to getting the CCA up and running properly. I can't help but think a better compromise would be available.
> 
> This divide is bad news.



I really really hope this case can be settled up peacefully by everyone.....


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## nck (Aug 30, 2010)

dillonbladez said:


> Yeah. I think That 1 year, no apology, 3-6 months, w/apology
> If it were me, I would just stop cubing. And possibly never cube again.
> 
> I hope he doesn't quit cubin' though. He was a very fast one.



That's what I would do.
I would still do it for fun, but to hell with competitions.


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## Neo63 (Aug 30, 2010)

Sorry to sound n00b, but what's CCA?


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## Cyrus C. (Aug 30, 2010)

Neo63 said:


> Sorry to sound n00b, but what's CCA?



Chinese Cubing Association, created by Haiyan so he could be in charge of it.


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## amostay2004 (Aug 30, 2010)

Ugh, whatever it is, CCA or WCA, I hope we will continue to see Haiyan (and other awesome Chinese cubers) in action


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## Stefan (Aug 30, 2010)

r_517 said:


> check my fb



What's with the "", is anything about the situation funny?


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## Yes We Can! (Aug 30, 2010)




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## flan (Aug 30, 2010)

I bet in 1-3 years were suddenly going to get incredible new record from him. maybe even sub sub 25. If i were him i would practice 4x4 and 5x5 and multi bld.


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## amostay2004 (Aug 30, 2010)

I doubt he'll still be competing in WCA competitions after 3 years. He'll either be going full-force on CCA or if that fails, his ego is probably too strong to want to compete in WCA.


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## Escher (Aug 30, 2010)

Completely unsurprised by any of this.


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## Kirjava (Aug 30, 2010)

While fragmentation of the WCA is a bad thing imo, I don't have a problem with the CCA existing.

However, CCA wishing to not co-exist with WCA and taking steps to stop that happening is a bad move for their public image.


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## AbelBrata (Aug 30, 2010)

flan said:


> I bet in 1-3 years were suddenly going to get incredible new record from him. maybe even sub sub 25. If i were him i would practice 4x4 and 5x5 and multi bld.



I doubt it...


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## Neo63 (Aug 30, 2010)

Wait so China is going to have its own organization completely separate from WCA? Bad move IMO. I really don't want to see that happening...


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## r_517 (Aug 30, 2010)

Neo63 said:


> Wait so China is going to have its own organization completely separate from WCA? Bad move IMO. I really don't want to see that happening...



when u were in china this summer didn't u hear about anything:confused: though there were few Haiyan's followers in your city


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## hawkmp4 (Aug 30, 2010)

I have absolutely no problem with a 3 year suspension if Haiyan was interfering with the investigation. He clearly can't handle this situation maturely (and his inability to act maturely is what got him into this mess). If he continued his shenanigans and tried to interfere with the investigation I see no issue with banning him for three years.

I know that when I go to a competition, more important to me than seeing fast competitors is having fun and being in a relaxed environment. This is more than just Haiyan. It's all the people he's affected. If he's taken that friendly, relaxed atmosphere away from competitions...I don't want him competing.


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## XXGeneration (Aug 30, 2010)

What happened exactly? The article doesn't say much.


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## scylla (Aug 30, 2010)

Can somebody explain what exactly has happened?

Don't get me wrong, I trust the WCA delegation, so if they have good reason to punish him I except that. And even more Im glad they make those hard decissions and I dont have to!

The description of WCA is very objective and that is how it has to be, but to understand what happened I would like to have more information about what he did and maybe why (although there is no reason to use violence)


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## Daniel Wu (Aug 30, 2010)

This punishment seems to harsh, but I don't know the exact situation. All this seems to be doing is pushing the WCA-CCA split on.



> 中国有CCA,美国有WCA​




What?? :/​


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## rahulkadukar (Aug 30, 2010)

PhillipEspinoza said:


> "Haiyan Zhuang got banned for 3 years. (He just promised he would never apologize to anyone.) Actually whether 1 year or 3 years makes no difference, coz he had established China Cube Association (http://zkx0h1.chinaw3.com/) and is persuading China Sports Administration to make WCA illegal in China."



That is a funny homepage, why are people's faces morphed


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## Kurbitur (Aug 30, 2010)

we've lost the wr bld solver. I think he will never compete again in a wca competition, maybe he will compete in CCA competitions but i don't know.


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## Sn0w (Aug 30, 2010)

Haiyan is a nice guy... he just gets pissed off, just like everyone does. Don't ban him. Just explain why you cant do things like threatening violence.


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## r_517 (Aug 30, 2010)

rickcube said:


> This punishment seems to harsh, but I don't know the exact situation. All this seems to be doing is pushing the WCA-CCA split on.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



WTF???!!! where did u find it?
anyway i don't wanna see this happen


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## Ethan Rosen (Aug 30, 2010)

Sn0w said:


> Haiyan is a nice guy... he just gets pissed off, just like everyone does. Don't ban him. Just explain why you cant do things like threatening violence.



I don't think he's a two year old. He should already be well aware of why threatening violence is wrong.


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## Sebastian-1 (Aug 30, 2010)

中国有CCA,美国有WCA = China has the CCA, the United States, WCA
*google translate


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## hawkmp4 (Aug 30, 2010)

The CCA has already held a competition, on the 14th of August, but it appears that Haiyan did not compete.


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## jiggy (Aug 30, 2010)

XXGeneration said:


> What happened exactly? The article doesn't say much.



These posts may shed some more light on the situation, if you haven't already seen them:

Investigation into unsportsmanlike behaviour

The truth about Haiyan Zhuang


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## Daniel Wu (Aug 30, 2010)

r_517 said:


> rickcube said:
> 
> 
> > This punishment seems to harsh, but I don't know the exact situation. All this seems to be doing is pushing the WCA-CCA split on.
> ...


I found it in here. Skimming through it with the little Chinese I know, I found that and was like what!?!


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## Neo63 (Aug 30, 2010)

r_517 said:


> Neo63 said:
> 
> 
> > Wait so China is going to have its own organization completely separate from WCA? Bad move IMO. I really don't want to see that happening...
> ...



I didn't get to meet any Chinese cubers 

anyway this is looking pretty bad... I REALLY REALLy don't want to see the split happening. I'm too lazy to go through posts on mf8 but are the Chinese people believing Haiyan and agreeing with his move to ban the WCA?

EDIT: Just read through some posts, seems like a lot of people there are anti-WCA and they dislike anything foreign or something :confused:

EDIT2:


> 太好了..不用看外国人的脸色了..
> 说真的..我们中国那么多人才..
> 干嘛要受外国人控制啊..
> 会说普通话又怎样..?
> "非我族类,其心必异"..


This is bad...


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## coinman (Aug 30, 2010)

XXGeneration said:


> What happened exactly? The article doesn't say much.



This page explains what happened. http://www.worldcubeassociation.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=886


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## Jilvin (Aug 30, 2010)

Can anybody here gauge the probability of success for Zhuang's new CCA?


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## Tyson (Aug 30, 2010)

Kirjava said:


> Give this a read
> 
> I think 1 year is very harsh, considering he didn't cheat - just went a bit crazy. I could understand a year if this wasn't the first time he'd been punished, but maaan. A year is a very long time. Enough to put someone off competing. Seems counter productive to me.
> 
> This is assuming he'll give a public apology. If he doesn't, I can see him really going for the CCA thing. Gotta do something in 3 years



I know a lot of people are going to think that the punishment is harsh. But let me put it this way... the people who have cheated in WCA competitions, they have not directly harmed anyone. Well, okay, the have harmed EVERYONE simply by hurting the validity of the records. But no one quit cubing because someone else cheated. Even in the great BLD cheating incident of 2007, only three people were harmed, and that was only money, and say what you want about 1000 Euros, 500 Euros, or 250 Euros, that type of money is not worth the threat on a person's life.

Intimidation should not be taken lightly. Haiyan's actions have directly resulted in people who have left the cubing community. Many people have quit cubing because they simply didn't want to deal with him. China needs more WCA delegates, but no one wants the responsibility of being a delegate because they don't want to deal with intimidation from Haiyan.

To get to the point, when others have cheated, they've done so in a way that is for their personal gain, but the rest of the community can still happily participate in WCA competitions. What Haiyan has done here, even though it doesn't affect the records, has been much more damaging to the community's ability to simply cube at a competition in peace.

In this sense, I feel one year is actually very light. Of course, it really doesn't matter. Haiyan won't be apologizing, and some of his supporters have already started threatening WCA organizers.


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## TrollingHard (Aug 30, 2010)

"Would like to elucidate..."

Big, fancy words. USE CLARIFY, A LOT MORE CLEAR (LOL)

I feel the punishment is necessary.


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## Tyson (Aug 30, 2010)

Kirjava said:


> I just remembered.
> 
> Shane Rowland had a solve retroactivly DNF'd for cheating on it, but never got any sort of punishment.
> 
> ...what?



The exact mechanics of this situation were very subtle. It is one thing to show that competition protocol was breached and there was an irregularity in the regulations. It is a whole different level to show that someone was deliberately cheating.


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## Neo63 (Aug 30, 2010)

Jilvin said:


> Can anybody here gauge the probability of success for Zhuang's new CCA?



From the posts I'm reading on mf8, the probability so far is very high. I think he totally deserves a lifetime ban from the things I'm hearing now.


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## Kian (Aug 30, 2010)

There is no room for this sort of ridiculous harassment of WCA delegates and a complete disrespect for all the people around him. He is more damaging to us than people who cheat, because those people can be handled with proper precaution. He is a selfish, egotistical maniac who is threatening people and his punishment is absolutely fair. I don't want to see a CCA either, but that doesn't mean that we can allow this sort of behavior. It's gone on for far too long.


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## r_517 (Aug 30, 2010)

rickcube said:


> r_517 said:
> 
> 
> > rickcube said:
> ...



i would support CCA if it could make every one happy and enjoy, but the situation is, they abandoned all useful rules in WCA and create a BS rule which does no good to most not-that-quick cubers


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## amostay2004 (Aug 30, 2010)

r_517 said:


> i would support CCA if it could make every one happy and enjoy, but the situation is, they abandoned all useful rules in WCA and create a BS rule which does no good to most not-that-quick cubers



Any example of said rules?


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## Owen (Aug 30, 2010)

Kian said:


> There is no room for this sort of ridiculous harassment of WCA delegates and a complete disrespect for all the people around him. He is more damaging to us than people who cheat, because those people can be handled with proper precaution. He is a selfish, egotistical maniac who is threatening people and his punishment is absolutely fair. I don't want to see a CCA either, but that doesn't mean that we can allow this sort of behavior. It's gone on for far too long.



Yeah. I've never seen a cuber make such an insane decision. 

Why would one even want to threaten someone over how many times you can solve a Rubik's cube?


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## r_517 (Aug 30, 2010)

amostay2004 said:


> r_517 said:
> 
> 
> > i would support CCA if it could make every one happy and enjoy, but the situation is, they abandoned all useful rules in WCA and create a BS rule which does no good to most not-that-quick cubers
> ...





> CCA中国魔方联赛将采取完全新颖的魔方赛制。
> 例如：三阶速拧将采用世界杯足球的赛制。
> 第一轮为晋级赛，每位选手有5次速拧机会，前32名将进入第二轮。第二轮采用两两分组PK制，每两人分组5次PK，5局三胜，胜利者进入前16名，直至最终决出总冠军。
> 
> 中国魔方联赛将同时推出中国排名王，每次联赛每个项目的前8名将获得一定的积分，所有项目的积分累加，这样就会出现一个真正的年度排名，时刻更新的排名。年度总积分第一的选手将获年度排名王的称号，同时前十名（暂定）选手将有额外的奖励



"CCA will have an entire new schedule."
"For example, 3x3x3 will use the schedule like FIFA World Cup."
"The first round will be qualification round. Every competitor has 5 chances. The top 32 cuber will succeed to the second round. From the second round, 1vs1 battle mode will be used. Who wins 3 out of 5 solves will succeed to next round until the final champion."
"Meanwhile we will have 'China Rank King'. Every top 8 cubers in every event in every competition will have some certain credit..."

Which means, you won't have any recording of yourself if you are not in top 8 of an event.


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## a small kitten (Aug 30, 2010)

What is 1vs1 battle mode? That actually sounds pretty epic. Hope they have good music.


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## r_517 (Aug 30, 2010)

a small kitten said:


> What is 1vs1 battle mode? That actually sounds pretty epic. Hope they have good music.



like badminton, table tennis, tennis etc.

lol it really sucks


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## Bryan (Aug 30, 2010)

r_517 said:


> "CCA will have an entire new schedule."
> "For example, 3x3x3 will use the schedule like FIFA World Cup."
> "The first round will be qualification round. Every competitor has 5 chances. The top 32 cuber will succeed to the second round. From the second round, 1vs1 battle mode will be used. Who wins 3 out of 5 solves will succeed to next round until the final champion."
> "Meanwhile we will have 'China Rank King'. Every top 8 cubers in every event in every competition will have some certain credit..."
> ...



Yeah, the WCA rules that allow flexibility so that you can take more people to the next round if you have extra time, or just need a single round of something because it's long. I mean, who wouldn't want these?

How do they even expect this to work with something like 7x7, or will each event have a different "flavor"?


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## freshcuber (Aug 30, 2010)

From what I've read it seems as though Haiyan is very petty. When you go back to the fundamentals of cubing and competition it's about the bonds we form and making friends (yeah it's cliche but it's true). When there's a competitor like Haiyan who is far ahead of everyone else he needs to be an exemplary person in competition. I'm a competative swimmer and the way I see would be like if Michael Phelps asked for extra heats of the 200 IM just so he could have more chances at breaking a world record. If Haiyan behaved like what was described then he is disrespectful towards the WCA, its delagates, the competition officials, as well as all other cubers. You're abilities do not make you exempt from the rules and I think this ban is a great way to show him that he cannot force his will upon others because he feels that BLD is so important.

If the CCA was going to happen then the WCA wasn't going to be able to stop it. China has a lot of political and social issues that people in America and other countries can't relate to. In the past China has made it very clear that they do not care for the rulses of other people, nations, or organizations. In the '08 Olympics we could all tell that the Chinese gymnastics team was made up of fifth graders (that may be an exaggeration but it was proved by CNN and other sources that those were children not of the age to compete). If China wants to bend the rules to gain attention to their cubers then I don't have a problem with a CCA. Although losing competitors such as Haiyan is a shame there will always be someone faster later on. Only a few world records that currently stand are even two years old. One is Eriks 7.08 single and even that has been crept up on considerably. Losing Chinese cubers is a shame and I don't want to see it happen since there are many who are pretty speedy but they can't use their poster boy (Haiyan) to intimidate the WCA.

I fully support the WCAs decision to ban Haiyan. He was given the chance to shorten his ban considerably and has already refused. To me that shows he doesn't really care much and he'll be happy to hold a CCA BLD record just as much as a WCA world record because honestly if he gets the world record in a CCA competition and it isn't recognized everyone will always be saying, "Well Haiyan does have a faster solve...it's just not official."


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## AbelBrata (Aug 30, 2010)

r_517 said:


> a small kitten said:
> 
> 
> > What is 1vs1 battle mode? That actually sounds pretty epic. Hope they have good music.
> ...



Actually we have already make this format several times in our unofficial competition in Jakarta as side event. We call it *Rubik's Cube Duel*. It is actually a nice event which everyone can feel the tension when watching 2 cubers head2head. The format is the first person who got 3 winning point is the winner of the duel. If you have watched "Karate Kid", you must know what I mean
Is it possible to make it an official event someday?

Uhmmm I guess Haiyan got the idea when he visited Indonesia. We were having this competition... we made an exhibition duel between Haiyan and Iril. Quite fun i think...


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## Kirjava (Aug 30, 2010)

freshcuber said:


> "Well Haiyan does have a faster solve...it's just not official."




What makes a CCA record less official than a WCA one?

I'm genuinely interested in your thoughts.



Tyson said:


> It is one thing to show that competition protocol was breached and there was an irregularity in the regulations. It is a whole different level to show that someone was deliberately cheating.




It's annoying that the intent cannot be proven. Thanks for pointing that out.


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## Chrish (Aug 30, 2010)

A banker can steal a bit of money every now and then because most of the time he's there he's doing his job, right?

People need to stop saying the ban is dumb because ''he was a good cuber''. So? If you personally had a legitimate chance at changing this ban by having a conversation with the people in charge, is that would you would tell them?


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## jiggy (Aug 30, 2010)

Kirjava said:


> freshcuber said:
> 
> 
> > "Well Haiyan does have a faster solve...it's just not official."
> ...


I'm interested in people's feelings on this too. Already, many people have said that they see the CCA as a bad thing. How would you react if Feliks or Erik was knocked off the top spot by a record from the CCA, with no WCA delegate present?

Would you accept it? Would you be suspicious? What is the WCA's standing on this? Would they accept another cubing association's record as official, or are we going to have two different rankings now?


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## Kirjava (Aug 30, 2010)

Chrish said:


> People need to stop saying the ban is dumb because ''he was a good cuber''. So? If you personally had a legitimate chance at changing this ban by having a conversation with the people in charge, is that would you would tell them?




Literally no one has said this. Can you read a thread before posting in it?


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## AbelBrata (Aug 30, 2010)

jiggy said:


> Kirjava said:
> 
> 
> > freshcuber said:
> ...



Suddenly I got this thought... Maybe in the future many other cubing organizations will emerge? Like in boxing, there are seven organizations: WBA (World Boxing Association), WBC (World Boxing Council), IBF (International Boxing Federation), WBO (World Boxing Organization), WBF (World Boxing Federation), IBC (International Boxing Council), and IBU (International Boxing Union). Geez.................


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## Daniel Wu (Aug 30, 2010)

AbelBrata said:


> jiggy said:
> 
> 
> > Kirjava said:
> ...


Note that all of those are international. CCA is hostile to outside control or any type of influence as far as I can see from reading the Chinese forum.


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## number1failure (Aug 30, 2010)

3 years? I thought it would be something smaller, like 3 months or so.


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## theace (Aug 30, 2010)

If he doesn't apologize, I guess he'll be a "memory"


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## scylla (Aug 30, 2010)

After I read most of the information, including Haiyan's own story I now will expose my thoughts.

The first thing im surprised about is that Haiyan starts his side of the story with some lines about he threatened a tv maker because he didnt interviewed Chris and that after that he did and Chris should be thankful for this. Haiyan even seems to be proud on it that he arranges this. 

Combining this information with the political environment in China. Haiyan's family is probably on an important position of the Chinese hierarchy who always get what they want. 

We should not blame this on him because that's the culture where he lives in. The other way arround Haiyan should have known that an international assocation like WCA has other moral values comparing with the standard in China. 

So the suspension feels ok with me. A year is not that much in a cubelife and afterall his behaviour didn't match with the friendly kind of speedcubing we want to spread all over the world. 

On the other side the WCA should try to see through the difference between the cultures we have in cubeworld. Maybe make apologize is in China more humilating than suicide, so that could be asking to much.

Last point im wondering about. If Hayian is possible to force organizers to put a 2nd round blindfold on the program, he probably is also capable of put pressure on referees during competion. Which would put some questionmarks at his results. All his results were at chinese competitions. Im not saying he cheated, but this is putting suspection on him.


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## hawkmp4 (Aug 30, 2010)

number1failure said:


> 3 years? I thought it would be something smaller, like 3 months or so.



I think it's lenient. Threatening officials with physical violence, as far as I'm concerned, should carry a lifetime ban. Especially if it's systematic, like it is with Haiyan. There's no place for that in our community. No matter how good one may be, it shouldn't be tolerated at all. I don't care how good someone may be, I don't want them competing if they're going to act like Haiyan has repeatedly.

EDIT:


> We should not blame this on him because that's the culture where he lives in.


Cultural relativism leads to many bad, dangerous things. We should absolutely blame this on Haiyan.


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## r_517 (Aug 30, 2010)

rickcube said:


> AbelBrata said:
> 
> 
> > jiggy said:
> ...



This.

again my point: i WILL support CCA if and only if this association is set to make most competitors enjoy. however from what we've seen on mf8, this is set just to be against WCA. what's more, only top 8 cubers will have ranks, and foreigners are NOT welcomed. this is not a good organisation from my point of view


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## jiggy (Aug 30, 2010)

scylla said:


> Combining this information with the political environment in China. Haiyan's family is probably on an important position of the Chinese hierarchy who always get what they want.


Do you have any actual evidence of this?



scylla said:


> Last point im wondering about. If Hayian is possible to force organizers to put a 2nd round blindfold on the program, he probably is also capable of put pressure on referees during competion. Which would put some questionmarks at his results. All his results were at chinese competitions. Im not saying he cheated, but this is putting suspection on him.


I have no doubt that his past results are legit. As far as I'm aware, Haiyan has not been investigated for cheating. I get what you're trying to say, but this is a bit too speculative for me.


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## r_517 (Aug 30, 2010)

scylla said:


> On the other side the WCA should try to see through the difference between the cultures we have in cubeworld. Maybe make apologize is in China more humilating than suicide, so that could be asking to much.


lol



scylla said:


> Last point im wondering about. If Hayian is possible to force organizers to put a 2nd round blindfold on the program, he probably is also capable of put pressure on referees during competion. Which would put some questionmarks at his results. All his results were at chinese competitions. Im not saying he cheated, but this is putting suspection on him.


we do trust his results. he IS a good cuber, but not a good man.


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## Joker (Aug 30, 2010)

Well. He was being stupid.
But remember 1 year IF he says sorry. Otherwise 3.
But even a year I think is a little much...yeah I'd go with 3-6 months...


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## zugohugo2 (Aug 30, 2010)

You have no Idea what Chinese grownups are like.......They are not like you guys with your grounding and all that little children stuff. They yell at you and sometimes beat you with a stick ;D


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## amostay2004 (Aug 30, 2010)

I hear so much about physical threats but have no idea how serious these threats really are. Is it the 'hey gimme 2 rounds or i'll kick your @$$' kind or the 'have thugs surround him and force him to comply' kind? If it's more towards the latter (ie serious threats) then 3 years is just lenient.


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## qqwref (Aug 30, 2010)

Kirjava said:


> I thought this length of time would lead to getting the CCA up and running properly. I can't help but think a better compromise would be available.
> 
> This divide is bad news.



This. I think the punishment is a bad situation from a political/diplomatic standpoint. Banning Haiyan for so long will just make him more angry at the WCA, and lead to the CCA starting up and being an explicit rival/enemy organization. I think a more lenient and less punitive decision could have a much better effect - for instance, maybe a ban for a year or two which would be brought down to just one month if he agreed (with proof) to start going to a therapist about anger issues. With something like that, maybe it would look silly to leave the organization entirely. But if you say "we want an apology, but even that is not enough, you will still have to leave for a whole year" - I think that gives the message that the WCA really doesn't want him in the community at all.

Besides, I accept that Haiyan's behavior would cause people in China to stop cubing - I've been in a similar situation but the cubing community in my country is a lot more localized so it was not as much of a problem - but I think the other banned competitor hurt cubing a lot more. No outsider would expect our organization to be able to keep a firm hold on everyone's personality, that's unreasonable, and every sport has people who get angry and care too much. But if you saw someone talking to the news repeatedly, representing cubing in his own country and abroad, having his videos all over the internet as examples of the highest level of skill... and then you found out that he cheated? That someone in the community kept getting records for many months and we didn't think to check until much later? That makes our organization look amateurish and ineffective. I don't condone being threatening and aggressive, but to me the two situations demand significantly different ban lengths.


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## TMOY (Aug 30, 2010)

AbelBrata said:


> Suddenly I got this thought... Maybe in the future many other cubing organizations will emerge? Like in boxing, there are seven organizations: WBA (World Boxing Association), WBC (World Boxing Council), IBF (International Boxing Federation), WBO (World Boxing Organization), WBF (World Boxing Federation), IBC (International Boxing Council), and IBU (International Boxing Union). Geez.................



Maybe Haiyan has mistaken the WCA for just another boxing organization. That would explain why he fights with everybody.


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## Daniel Wu (Aug 30, 2010)

TMOY said:


> AbelBrata said:
> 
> 
> > Suddenly I got this thought... Maybe in the future many other cubing organizations will emerge? Like in boxing, there are seven organizations: WBA (World Boxing Association), WBC (World Boxing Council), IBF (International Boxing Federation), WBO (World Boxing Organization), WBF (World Boxing Federation), IBC (International Boxing Council), and IBU (International Boxing Union). Geez.................
> ...


Sorry but http://www.speedsolving.com/forum/showpost.php?p=428997&postcount=63. I had to.


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## freshcuber (Aug 30, 2010)

Kirjava said:


> freshcuber said:
> 
> 
> > "Well Haiyan does have a faster solve...it's just not official."
> ...



CCA records wouldn't count because they're from a national cubing society. I don't believe they allow international competitors into their competitions (I may be wrong about that) and since they don't allow international competitors, records shouldn't be allowed on the international stage. They formed the CCA, the *Chinese* Cubing Association as opposed to the WCA, *World* Cubing Associtation. This implies that all competition will be kept within their borders and if that's the case all records should as well. If they were trying to create another international cubing society like the International Cubing Federation, or something similar, and allowed foriegn competitors I would have a different view.


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## Daniel Wu (Aug 30, 2010)

Not to mention that they're completely trashing the WCA's rules just because they were made by the WCA. I read something about unlimited inspection time on the chinese forum. I'll go see if I can find it again.

EDIT:


> 我倒觉得反正没必要遵守WCA的那套规则，思路可以更开阔一些。​



Close enough. ​


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## Olivér Perge (Aug 30, 2010)

In my opinion a year ban is not that long. Just think about how many times you compete a year. If you compete like every 3 months, then a 6 months ban is not that long at all. 

Also, a punishment should be bad for the competitor if it's deserved and also an example for the rest.

Personally I don't know all the details of the incident, but I believe that the WCA made the decision after thinking through very well.

On the other side: The thing is that he is amazing at blind, should make the punishment even harder not the opposite. He is an idol for many cubers, a lot of cubers follow him and he should not behave like this. Great talent comes with great responsibility.


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## Neo63 (Aug 30, 2010)

scylla said:


> Maybe make apologize is in China more humilating than suicide, so that could be asking to much.



lolno

Regarding the CCA, from what I'm reading it's actually not set to be against the WCA, it's just the Chinese's own cubing association, but from the replies I saw there is a some kind of unfriendilness towards WCA by the Chinese cubers, which I really don't want to see. 
My view: One organization(ie WCA) that holds comps for EVERYONE and EVERYWHERE.



zugohugo2 said:


> You have no Idea what Chinese grownups are like.......They are not like you guys with your grounding and all that little children stuff. They yell at you and sometimes beat you with a stick ;D


um what?

Also, can someone prove that the CCA is set up to be against the WCA and that Haiyan is trying to get WCA banned in China? I'm not seeing any of this anywhere? 


> 所以，
> 无论是国际比赛的后备缓冲也好
> 国人独立的协会联赛也好
> 出发点是普及魔方竞速概念，让更多魔友有机会体验竞技乐趣
> ...


This is from Fubo Wang

EDIT: 


rickcube said:


> Not to mention that they're completely trashing the WCA's rules just because they were made by the WCA. I read something about unlimited inspection time on the chinese forum. I'll go see if I can find it again.
> 
> EDIT:
> 
> ...


That was not posted by those people from the CAA, who said that they will keep the good things by WCA and improve upon the bad ones.


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## Kirjava (Aug 30, 2010)

freshcuber said:


> Kirjava said:
> 
> 
> > freshcuber said:
> ...




Your answer had nothing to do with my question.


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## Daniel Wu (Aug 30, 2010)

I see half the people trying to get it to be a domestic cube league type thing under the WCA and the other half are being ethnocentric xenophobes. But whatever. What happens happens and I can't do anything about it.


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## freshcuber (Aug 30, 2010)

Kirjava said:


> freshcuber said:
> 
> 
> > Kirjava said:
> ...



It's a _*national*_ cubing society. How can you call it a world record if the whole world isn't allowed to compete for it in their competitions? That'd be like me sitting in my room and calling my rather ordinary, less-than-average solves a world record. If I'm the only one allowed to compete for it then I'll have a world record with every PB.


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## Kirjava (Aug 30, 2010)

When did I call it a world record?


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## Neo63 (Aug 30, 2010)

It depends on your definition of official.


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## hawkmp4 (Aug 30, 2010)

freshcuber said:


> It's a _*national*_ cubing society. How can you call it a world record if the whole world isn't allowed to compete for it in their competitions? That'd be like me sitting in my room and calling my rather ordinary, less-than-average solves a world record. If I'm the only one allowed to compete for it then I'll have a world record with every PB.



No, that'd be like someone in the CCA setting a record that's faster than the previous CCA record or WCA record.
By your argument, records set in WCA competitions where only one nationality is allowed shouldn't count as records.


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## Tyson (Aug 30, 2010)

Kirjava said:


> freshcuber said:
> 
> 
> > Kirjava said:
> ...



The WCA's legitimacy is really only in the minds of the community. In the end, most people out there trust that WCA organizers and delegates are doing this for the sake of cubing, and not for personal gain or other motivations.

Looking at the history of the CCA, can you say the same thing? The WCA is the WCA for a reason, as opposed to the WRCA. When money isn't involved, people and companies with financial interest can't come in and demand rule changes for financial gain. I think in this sense, it keeps the sport more pure. We cube because we want to, and because it's fun. When people make rules so that they can directly profit from the competition, or when they change things to help improve their profits, doesn't that change the legitimacy of the records?

And if the WCA only allowed people who blue eyes to compete in their competition, would you consider the WCA's records legitimate? I think the openness of the competitions, that anyone can attend without restriction, and without threats or intimidation, is one thing that makes the WCA records recognized by the community.


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## Kirjava (Aug 30, 2010)

Tyson said:


> The WCA's legitimacy is really only in the minds of the community. In the end, most people out there trust that WCA organizers and delegates are doing this for the sake of cubing, and not for personal gain or other motivations.




This was the answer I was hoping to get.

My thought was that even if the CCA is founded on madness, over time it may gain an air of legitimacy.


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## PatrickJameson (Aug 30, 2010)

The one thing that I can see would be a problem with this whole CCA not being associated with the WCA thing is that, if a lot of fast people who would normally just got to WCA competitions decide not to go to any of those competitions and instead go to CCA competitions, the WCA rankings will be skewed, as those fast people are not competing in WCA competitions anymore.

This wouldn't be good :|.


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## freshcuber (Aug 30, 2010)

What would you say the percentage of cubers operating under WCA rules are? Atleast 90%. Probably more. There may be other cubing organiztaions out there but I've never heard of any of them (Other than CCA). A record time in a CCA competition would be official, yes. But not the same as a WCA record even if it's faster. I wouldn't qualify it as a record because I go by WCA rules so any times recorded under other rules would make it worthless to a WCA cuber.


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## jiggy (Aug 30, 2010)

Tyson said:


> And if the WCA only allowed people who blue eyes to compete in their competition, would you consider the WCA's records legitimate? I think the openness of the competitions, that anyone can attend without restriction, and without threats or intimidation, is one thing that makes the WCA records recognized by the community.


Assuming people with blue eyes were competing in one room, and people with every other eye colour in another. If the fastest time overall was then achieved by a blue eyed competitor, then I would certainly consider that a legitimate record.

If, hypothetically, the competition procedure was to be identical between the WCA and the CCA, and a record was broken by a competitor in the CCA (with no WCA delegate present, but still in full competition conditions), do you think the WCA would/should accept that record?

If the CCA were to change some of the rules, as they seem to be talking about, things would certainly get a bit more misty...


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## Kirjava (Aug 30, 2010)

jiggy said:


> If, hypothetically, the competition procedure was to be identical between the WCA and the CCA, and a record was broken by a competitor in the CCA (with no WCA delegate present, but still in full competition conditions), do you think the WCA would/should accept that record?




This will never happen.


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## jiggy (Aug 30, 2010)

Kirjava said:


> jiggy said:
> 
> 
> > If, hypothetically, the competition procedure was to be identical between the WCA and the CCA, and a record was broken by a competitor in the CCA (with no WCA delegate present, but still in full competition conditions), do you think the WCA would/should accept that record?
> ...



What will never happen? A CCA competitor will never break a WCA record, the procedures will never be the same, or the WCA will never accept a CCA record?

I assume you mean the latter, I really don't know where I stand on this issue. If the two procedures were to be completely identical, then what makes a WCA record more official -more legitimate- than a CCA record? (Apparently I'm parroting your question back at you now!)


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## ExoCorsair (Aug 30, 2010)

jiggy said:


> If, hypothetically, the competition procedure was to be identical between the WCA and the CCA, and a record was broken by a competitor in the CCA (with no WCA delegate present, but still in full competition conditions), do you think the WCA would/should accept that record?



A better question to ask is, "If the WCA WR were broken by a CCA competitor, would the community accept that record?"


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## Kirjava (Aug 30, 2010)

It's not about it being 'more official'.

It's about the fact that WCA don't accept results from non-WCA competitions for a number of reasons. These should be obvious to you.


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## oprah62 (Aug 30, 2010)

CCA doesn't matter at all to cubers outside of China, because even if he gets his 2 rounds of BLD and gets a new "WR", the WCA will never acknowledge it and his record will stay the same for 1-3 years or until it's beaten. 
I agree, 1+ years is harsh.


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## jiggy (Aug 30, 2010)

ExoCorsair said:


> jiggy said:
> 
> 
> > If, hypothetically, the competition procedure was to be identical between the WCA and the CCA, and a record was broken by a competitor in the CCA (with no WCA delegate present, but still in full competition conditions), do you think the WCA would/should accept that record?
> ...


Indeed, and I asked that question a few pages back!

What's more, if we didn't accept that record but the CCA insisted it _was_ in fact legit, would the Chinese community then accept any proceeding records set by the WCA?

EDIT: Forget it, I think speculation isn't helpful at this point. I'm just wondering if this is going to change anything, or if everything is just going carry on as before. Hopefully the second.


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## PatrickJameson (Aug 30, 2010)

ExoCorsair said:


> jiggy said:
> 
> 
> > If, hypothetically, the competition procedure was to be identical between the WCA and the CCA, and a record was broken by a competitor in the CCA (with no WCA delegate present, but still in full competition conditions), do you think the WCA would/should accept that record?
> ...



It would be treated as if the competition was an unofficial meetup/event, obviously.


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## Tyson (Aug 30, 2010)

Kirjava said:


> Tyson said:
> 
> 
> > The WCA's legitimacy is really only in the minds of the community. In the end, most people out there trust that WCA organizers and delegates are doing this for the sake of cubing, and not for personal gain or other motivations.
> ...



Well, only if people give it the legitimacy.

So let's say you have a CCA competition that follows identical regulations as a WCA competition. Well... how do you know that? How do you know there isn't cheating going on behind the scenes? How do you know this for a WCA competition? In both a WCA and a CCA competition, how do you ever know that a competitor hasn't been given some type of advantage, let's say, a prepared scramble.

You don't. That's the simple fact. When you attend a WCA competition, you're putting trust in a lot of people. It starts from Ron and myself, when we created the WCA and keeping financial interest out of it by not taking any direct sponsorship from anyone. The trust comes from the people who have helped me organize competitions back in 2004 when things were getting started. And the trust continues to the delegates, whom have dealt with either myself, or my colleagues, or some other connection back to the WCA. And I trust the delegates because they have been appointed by either myself, other members of the board, or other delegates that I trust.

So in the end, let's say some miraculous time comes out of the CCA. It's your choice whether or not you want to trust them. That, I can't control. But to compare the CCA records to the WCA I say would be to trivialize the work done over the last 6 years to build an open trusting community.

You don't just start something new because you aren't happy with what's out there. I think the cubers in our community need to ask the question, "Why was the CCA started?" If the WCA is doing such a bad job, and we have things in place that are really that unfair that the CCA needs to be started, then yes, we should have an immediate discussion to try to resolve this. But if the CCA was started because one person wasn't happy with the way some things were run, isn't that a reason to be suspicious of the motivations of the CCA?

I think it's very clear that I have no "personal glory" reason to benefit from the WCA. My time to shine was 5 years ago and I'm just way too slow to even attempt to come close to those types of records. I think pretty much all of us are like that. Ron, who is still a very fast cuber, really isn't anywhere near the top on the large cubes anymore. And Masayuki, who used to be a top 5x5 solver, we're all just old. We have no records to shoot for anymore. We've stepped aside. So from this standpoint, I can assure you that the WCA, especially the board members... we're not doing this because we want some record or international praise for being the fastest. It's simply not going to happen. We're too old and slow.

And as for financial gain, I'd be happy to show anyone with doubts that there is any personal financial gain from WCA events the paperwork that no one is personally putting money away for their own use. All revenue generated from WCA events gets put back into WCA events. Any left over money is saved for the future.

So why, at least myself, do I spend the time and effort to organize a WCA event? I dunno... I think I've just been involved for 6 years now, I just keep on doing it. It's also very satisfying for me to see a large scale event come together, like US Nationals. Most of all though, these types of events are reasons for me to see some of the friends I've made over the last 6 years. It was a privilege to host Stefan Pochmann week at my home in California. And yet a privilege again to see him at US Nationals.

So these are my motivations for the WCA. It's simply a lot of fun for me to meet people from around the world, and have something in common to talk about. And it's these motivations over the last 6 years, shared by myself and the other WCA delegates, that give the WCA records their legitimacy. If we have nothing to gain, then it's every reason to ensure a fair and open competition.

What then, is the motivation of the CCA? If it is to improve on the WCA, then what has the WCA done so badly that a discussion couldn't have taken place with the WCA to correct these alleged transgressions.

I guess that's all I really have to ask then, in terms of the question of CCA records. For what reasons was the CCA formed, and is this an organization that you want to trust given the context of everything that's happened?


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## jiggy (Aug 30, 2010)

Thanks for your input, Tyson, that was a very interesting read. I agree with what you're saying about trust in an organisation. I suppose it's hard to trust an organisation that came in to strength because a person wanted to change things to better suit them.

I'm not looking forward to a time when I can have a conversation along the lines of:
"Did you hear there's a new world record of 6.92?"
"No, that's the _Chinese_ record, not the _world_ record."
"Oh...there's a difference?"


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## Kirjava (Aug 30, 2010)

Tyson said:


> I guess that's all I really have to ask then, in terms of the question of CCA records. For what reasons was the CCA formed, and is this an organization that you want to trust given the context of everything that's happened?




It seems that many people already do trust Haiyan and therefore the CCA.

I understand what you're saying, but just because CCA was founded for poor reasons doesn't mean the organisation will be fraught with cheating.


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## Bryan (Aug 30, 2010)

jiggy said:


> I'm not looking forward to a time when I can have a conversation along the lines of:
> "Did you hear there's a new world record of 6.92?"
> "No, that's the _Chinese_ record, not the _world_ record."
> "Oh...there's a difference?"



You're just answering the question wrong.

"Did you hear there's a new world record of 6.92?"
"Yes, it was set under the Chinese Association rules, where are different from the more common WCA rules".

Especially if they have stuff like unlimited inspection time.


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## Tyson (Aug 30, 2010)

True, I agree that it doesn't necessarily imply that it will be fraught with cheating.

It seems too convenient to me though, that Haiyan starts getting sub-30 second BLD solves in his own organization.

In the similar vein, it's why it would be a bad idea for Feliks to be a WCA delegate now. This isn't because he's trust worthy, but it's best to have no conflict of interest. Same with Rowe Hessler. If you're that good, it's best not to have that responsibility.

If people want to trust Haiyan and the CCA, well, there's really nothing I can do and nothing that I should do. I do see it a shame that people would trivialize the work done over the last 6 years by the WCA to ensure fair and open competitions though. We've done a lot of work to make competitions open and accessible to everyone.


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## Kirjava (Aug 30, 2010)

Bryan said:


> Especially if they have stuff like unlimited inspection time.




This will die soon after everyone starts to do speedbld.


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## freshcuber (Aug 30, 2010)

We should also look at this from the CCAs point of view. They believe they've been mistreated and cheated by the WCA and the ban of Haiyan just solidified this idea in their minds. If there's any one way for this problem to be resolved it's that all the leaders of the WCA and CCA should discuss the problems that Haiyan was confronted with and figure out what truly happened and what's causing the schism.


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## Tyson (Aug 30, 2010)

Uh yes. The WCA delegates tried many time to have a civilized conversation. But after threats and accusations, it wasn't getting anywhere.

You make it sound like the WCA and the delegates didn't try to resolve anything.

I, of course, was not there in the beginning. But in my mind, this all started when Haiyan wanted to be a WCA delegate. And the existing delegates there said it wasn't a good idea because he has connections to the cube manufacturing companies and stood to directly profit from WCA competitions.

So really, there wasn't an issue with the WCA except that the delegates didn't find him to be the right person for the delegate position. And from there on, that's where the intimidation started. I think part of that was to attempt to make the WCA look bad as a way of saying, "Look, I'm not a delegate. Look what these fools the WCA appointed are doing?!?"

The whole democracy idea was pretty much a joke. He just wanted a vote because he knew he would win such a vote with his popularity. If democratically elected WCA officials was such an important point for Haiyan, then why aren't CCA officials democratically elected?

So really, I think the only real problem that Haiyan had with the WCA was that he wasn't made a delegate. And after that, I guarantee you the WCA delegates in China went out of their way to try and communicate with him. It just didn't work.

When you say, "Why don't you look at this from the CCA's point of view?" You realize, that's really just one person right? It's really just Haiyan and his friends. I guess I would say, "We might as well look at this from Dan Gosbee's point of view" as well right? But most people here are probably too young for that one.


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## Kirjava (Aug 30, 2010)

Tyson said:


> It seems too convenient to me though, that Haiyan starts getting sub-30 second BLD solves in his own organization.




Oh come on, you know he's more than capable of that.



Tyson said:


> If people want to trust Haiyan and the CCA, well, there's really nothing I can do and nothing that I should do. I do see it a shame that people would trivialize the work done over the last 6 years by the WCA to ensure fair and open competitions though. We've done a lot of work to make competitions open and accessible to everyone.




No one can claim that the CCA has anywhere near the iron web of trust that the WCA does.

I don't think people should look down on CCA for having closed competitions though (although some of the comments that lie close to racism on mf8 are a bit much). WCA once considered something similar.


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## Tyson (Aug 30, 2010)

Sure, he's more than capable of sub-30. And if he did it in a WCA competition, I wouldn't doubt it one bit. If the CCA doesn't have near the iron web of trust that the WCA has, then how could you trust a sub-30 solve from the CCA in a similar fashion?

In that sense, which is the legitimate world record?


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## Kirjava (Aug 30, 2010)

You can still trust it. It might not be the same level of trust, you might still doubt it's legitimacy - but there is still the possibility of believing the solve is real.

As for which record being legitimate - they both are.


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## qqwref (Aug 30, 2010)

I can't accept a world record as real if I can't trust that it was not cheated. This is for the same reason I won't accept random unofficial solves as the real WR. WCA has earned my trust many times over. If CCA ever wants to claim new WRs, they will have to do the same.


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## freshcuber (Aug 30, 2010)

I mean no offense but if Haiyan was intimidating and threatening delegates then he clearly has no respect for them, or the rules they enforce (which does bring up doubts about the CCAs trustworthiness). At that point when it was clear he was becoming a menace I assume a higher power stepped in, you or any of the other board members. 

I'm also starting to wonder if some of this wasn't preventable. I'm not laying blame on any officials here, I'm sure they did all they could, but when a competitor starts to show signs of hostility like he was action should have been taken sooner. This could have prevented, or atleast delayed, many of the current problems. I say delayed because the CCA was still more than likely to be founded. If actions had been taken sooner A 6 month ban or a lesser penalty than the one he recieved could have been issued. Despite Haiyans behavior he is still a fantastic cuber and it will be a loss if he decides to never participate in WCA events again.


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## ElectricDoodie (Aug 30, 2010)

Tyson said:


> *You don't just start something new because you aren't happy with what's out there.* I think the cubers in our community need to ask the question, "Why was the CCA started?" If the WCA is doing such a bad job, and we have things in place that are really that unfair that the CCA needs to be started, then yes, we should have an immediate discussion to try to resolve this. But if the CCA was started because one person wasn't happy with the way some things were run, isn't that a reason to be suspicious of the motivations of the CCA?



Religion did and does that.


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## Andreaillest (Aug 30, 2010)

Well, all I can say is that he gets what he deserves. He had the chance to man up and apologize, but refused. Very childish behavior for someone so well respected. I respect him as a cuber, but I have a hard time respecting him as a man.


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## freshcuber (Aug 30, 2010)

ElectricDoodie said:


> Tyson said:
> 
> 
> > *You don't just start something new because you aren't happy with what's out there.* I think the cubers in our community need to ask the question, "Why was the CCA started?" If the WCA is doing such a bad job, and we have things in place that are really that unfair that the CCA needs to be started, then yes, we should have an immediate discussion to try to resolve this. But if the CCA was started because one person wasn't happy with the way some things were run, isn't that a reason to be suspicious of the motivations of the CCA?
> ...



Yea I saw that as well and was going to connect it to how America was founded because we didn't like how England was ruling but I decided to leave that alone since it was off-topic.


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## Cow8Duck (Aug 30, 2010)

The site has an internal server error for me anyway.

But from what I've read is that he has made threats to WCA people, which if you think about is against the law so really it isn't a harsh punishment, it was probably that or off to jail.


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## Neo63 (Aug 30, 2010)

Cow8Duck said:


> But from what I've read is that he has made threats to WCA people, which if you think about is against the law so really it isn't a harsh punishment,* it was probably that or off to jail.*



lolno, especially not in China


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## Ron (Aug 30, 2010)

Hi all,

I am very sorry, but this is the way it has been going since Haiyan was not able or willing to see his own faults. He knew what he would do if we would not ignore his faults. Well, we did not ignore them. And from there it went the way that he wanted it to go. I do not like this situation, but there is no way that we could ignore his seriously bad behaviour. Even a one day ban would not have changed anything. Haiyan still has one month to come to new insights.

Dear WCA delegates and competition organisers in China,

You have my full support. You guys have been doing a great job and I am pretty sure that you will keep on working hard for the Chinese community. Please keep your positive spirit and attitude. Don't give up. Our mission is organising competitions to make people happy. Thank you very much!

Dear Haiyan,

Is there any way that we can reunite? I am not your enemy, no-one here is. I want to be your friend. Unconditionally. I have nothing against CCA. I hope CCA will create instead of destroy. Think carefully the upcoming month. The future is in your hands.

Good luck and have fun,

Ron


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## scylla (Aug 30, 2010)

Today was the first competition in the new SCA (Scylla Cube Association)

World Records:

rubik singele: 6,45 (Scylla)
rubik average: 8,23 (Scylla)
rubik BLD: 23,18 (Scylla)
OH single: 9,99 (Scylla)
....

anyone doubt about it?
;:confused::confused::confused:


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## Radu (Aug 30, 2010)

I don't know all the details of this incident(s), but I'm sure that the WCA has analyzed everything carefully and I fully trust their decision, even if apparently it seems harsh.

Since I first attended my first competition I realized that WCA is not (only) about records, WCA is about meeting new people, sharing ideas, show puzzles, having a good time, in a few words "TO HAVE FUN"! 

Come'on, there will always be another chance for you to improve your record in another competition! And in the end....what's the fun to get a super-duper record of 15s bld...you can retire and that's it. It's more pleasure to beat it step by step in time, not in a few months. I really don't see why more rounds of bld were asked by him, but maybe we think differently.

Nothing compares with the atmosphere of the informal meetings in the evening and the good time with the other cubers. This is the spirit that Ron, Tyson and the others are trying to promote in the community not only to make a race for records. Apparently Haiyan is interested only in his personal success and the financial one! This is another big merit of WCA, no financial influences have interfered. I wouldn't wonder if this..."cca" will accept only Haiyan Cubes.

WCA is a great community now and i met GREAT people....so I cannot trust and accept something that is opposed to this. For me, CCA doesn't exist. The other cubers, especially the ones who competed in a WCA comp. who know the spirit of WCA should think the same way. Chinese cubers should boycott this "cca" invention and follow the WCA. I know it won't happen, but Haiyan should think again and turn back to WCA with apologies and come back in a year.

LE - a few posts have been posted meanwhile


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## scylla (Aug 30, 2010)

good words Ron!


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## PhillipEspinoza (Aug 30, 2010)

Anyone find it weird that the last time a major ban like this happened was with a former BLD WR holder? Is it a cursed position or what?

I still think what happened in 2007 affected the community a lot more than this incident with Haiyan. It seems like individual/personal drama that was taken to a higher level. Is the "cubing community" limited to just those who were affected by Haiyan or do we have a say in it too? Can't the community have some say into what happens with the speedcubing community? 

If I got into a physical fight with say, Lucas Garron, or something like that, and it was related to one of the competitions he was holding (but also related to some non-competition drama), would I be banned from competing for the next 3 years? If I were to be banned, wouldn't it make more sense to ban me from just the competitions that Lucas organized?

Lots of people in the cubing community have anger problems, and I'm sure there have been threats made before amongst individual cubers who may not like each other. Is that enough of a reason to ban someone for 3 years? That's all I'm saying.

There's still some major parts to the story that apparently (maybe conveniently) haven't been revealed due to safety reasons (if I'm understanding it correctly). I've read all the available back story on this and I'm not necessarily sticking up for Haiyan, but this raises concern as to what constitutes the "community" and who gets to decide which direction it goes in. 

I don't understand why some people are thankful that they don't have to make hard decisions like this. Wouldn't you want to have a say?!


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## Tyson (Aug 30, 2010)

PhillipEspinoza said:


> I don't understand why some people are thankful that they don't have to make hard decisions like this. Wouldn't you want to have a say?!



The hard part isn't having your say. It's everyone who judges you about what you said afterwards. No matter what you say, you're going to have opposition. That part isn't fun at all.


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## maggot (Aug 30, 2010)

ElectricDoodie said:


> Tyson said:
> 
> 
> > *You don't just start something new because you aren't happy with what's out there.* I think the cubers in our community need to ask the question, "Why was the CCA started?" If the WCA is doing such a bad job, and we have things in place that are really that unfair that the CCA needs to be started, then yes, we should have an immediate discussion to try to resolve this. But if the CCA was started because one person wasn't happy with the way some things were run, isn't that a reason to be suspicious of the motivations of the CCA?
> ...



for money. and haiyan is doing the same. i hate to make a poor argument to democracy in cubing delegate selection and US politicians. we have obama as a president. he is practically a celebrity and this is why he was elected, not to his relevancy to being responsible president. not to say that haiyan would not have the ability to be a delegate, however, it is in bad interest. haiyan is just like obama with *we need to change *the WCA and push issues to sway them in his favor since he is a top cuber. not to pull race into the issue, but many black americans chose obama not for his ability to be a president, but because he was black. and because they felt like he would stand up for african americans. many african americans are still blurting restitution jargon with hopes that a black president will listen. sorry for the kind of off topic, but i notice too much relevancy. 
no matter how many threats and immature actions of persuasion he might have, he deserves nothing. if he wishes to start an unofficial league, do it. it would give them the opportunity to have their fun, but at the end of the day, it means nothing. haiyan thinks he can do whatever he wants. he can. but can he impact the WCA? probably not.


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## scylla (Aug 30, 2010)

> I don't understand why some people are thankful that they don't have to make hard decisions like this. Wouldn't you want to have a say?!



I was one of those. Let me explain why:

If I have to make these decisions, I have to know all details of what has happened, I should have talk to all participants and have to decide if a ban is necessary and if how long it would have to be. I don't have the time and energy for that to do. That's why Im glad that there are people who do this for me, people who made cubing more than a puzzle, who made cubing a community.

Its easy to judge at the side line with no responsibility. It's brave if you judge if its have to and when you have responsibility


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## Vincents (Aug 30, 2010)

maggot said:


> ElectricDoodie said:
> 
> 
> > Tyson said:
> ...



Opinion. Support your opinion, or don't state it as facts.


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## maggot (Aug 30, 2010)

Vincents said:


> maggot said:
> 
> 
> > ElectricDoodie said:
> ...



everything here is personal opinion. my poor english does not allow me to express opinion from fact. personally i am very disturbed with current politics. haiyan, not disturbed. i support whatever decision WCA makes, because ultimately it was haiyan action and his future action that will decide his fate. it is not like the WCA is being unjust. they are giving him an opportunity to make amends for his action. haiyan opened a can of worms and all that is happening is his put in check. if i did the same thing i wouldnt expect no consequence.


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## Bryan (Aug 30, 2010)

PhillipEspinoza said:


> I still think what happened in 2007 affected the community a lot more than this incident with Haiyan.
> ...
> If I got into a physical fight with say, Lucas Garron, or something like that, and it was related to one of the competitions he was holding (but also related to some non-competition drama), would I be banned from competing for the next 3 years? If I were to be banned, wouldn't it make more sense to ban me from just the competitions that Lucas organized?



But let's say Lucas was the only person holding competitions in CA. And after the altercation, he decides he's not going to run competitions anymore. That has a major effect on the community, but only to the people who may not ever compete through no fault of their own. If you didn't go to Chinese competitions before and you don't plan on going in the future, then it probably has no effect on you as an individual.


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## splinteh (Aug 30, 2010)

We never really do know what happens behind the scenes


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## Erik (Aug 31, 2010)

Tyson said:


> I guess I would say, "We might as well look at this from Dan Gosbee's point of view" as well right? But most people here are probably too young for that one.



I LOL-ed at it  even though I only heard the stories shortly after I started cubing 5 years ago.

On topic:
The WCA is a very trustworthy being, which I almost trust 100% blindfolded. This is only the 2nd time a real solid hard ban is being given to anyone. I hear, see and experience (some more, some less) the way they do things. One of the main words coming to my mind while thinking about it is carefulness. 

The WCA has hardly ever brought out anything to the public that wasn't thought through thoroughly and thought about with several people. Reading everything carefully I sadly have to say that the WCA has handled in a right way again this time. I don't want to judge Haiyan in any way, I'm just putting my trust in the WCA that they (again) made the right decision.

I regret stuff like this happening within our loving society a lot. Especially after I proudly told my new classmates today (who are all non-dutch and from 20 nationalities) that I have friends from all over the world. This is what cubing is about and what it should be about in the future: trust, friendship and fun. Not about money, not about personal success, not about popularity, not even about records (at least not as the main purpose). 
Regardless of skill or function, any behavior that damage these foundations should be punished. 

I hope next time I tell people about my friends I can be as proud as I was today, without any bad feelings.


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## Dene (Aug 31, 2010)

I feel left out I don't know anything about Dan Gosbee other than his name  .

This comes an no surprise to me anyway. From what I've deduced Haiyan deserves what he gets.


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## beingforitself (Aug 31, 2010)

It would suck if Haiyan has connections with party guys and gets WCA competitions shut down in some or all Chinese cities.


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## jms_gears1 (Aug 31, 2010)

Tyson said:


> *You don't just start something new because you aren't happy with what's out there.* I think the cubers in our community need to ask the question, "Why was the CCA started?" If the WCA is doing such a bad job, and we have things in place that are really that unfair that the CCA needs to be started, then yes, we should have an immediate discussion to try to resolve this. But if the CCA was started because one person wasn't happy with the way some things were run, isn't that a reason to be suspicious of the motivations of the CCA?



um what?
Dont you live in America?
and not only America but a capitalistic society..

That is kind of the idea behind capitalism and America...

Anyway, the CCA will exist regardless of our suspicion or not. How about we wait to cast any stones and see what happens? Its never a good idea to shoot at a crowd of people you think MIGHT be the enemy, especially if they have not shot at you first.


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## ~Phoenix Death~ (Aug 31, 2010)

What is the CCA?


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## teller (Aug 31, 2010)

jms_gears1 said:


> Tyson said:
> 
> 
> > *You don't just start something new because you aren't happy with what's out there.* I think the cubers in our community need to ask the question, "Why was the CCA started?" If the WCA is doing such a bad job, and we have things in place that are really that unfair that the CCA needs to be started, then yes, we should have an immediate discussion to try to resolve this. But if the CCA was started because one person wasn't happy with the way some things were run, isn't that a reason to be suspicious of the motivations of the CCA?
> ...




Indeed...the The World Poker Tour flourished and spawned a revolution in televised poker where no one else would dare to tread while the World Series of Poker struggled to find an audience. Granted, the WSOP has since co-opted the best of the WPT in recent years and now leads in the ratings on ESPN, but the basic idea was sound: Someone thought they could do it better and they were free to do so. F*** yeah! Creative destruction!

Disclaimer: I have nothing but respect for the WCA and I trust them 99%. But I also love my Haiyan Memory cube, so even if Haiyan is a self-important tyrant like Donald Trump he can't possibly be 100% evil...so let the cards fall where they may. History will sort it out, no?


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## hic0057 (Aug 31, 2010)

~Phoenix Death~ said:


> What is the CCA?



I think it China Cubing Association.
The Chinese version of the WCA.

Or they made a spelling mistake


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## jms_gears1 (Aug 31, 2010)

teller said:


> jms_gears1 said:
> 
> 
> > Tyson said:
> ...


I definitely dont mean to sound against WCA, I just dont think the comment was very well thought out.


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## jms_gears1 (Aug 31, 2010)

hic0057 said:


> ~Phoenix Death~ said:
> 
> 
> > What is the CCA?
> ...


Yes, Haiyan started it after he raged at WCA competitions.


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## keyan (Aug 31, 2010)

As a WCA delegate for China, I fully support the CCA in it's publicly stated goal: helping make organizing competitions easier and spreading cubing in China. There are aspects about China that make organizing competitions more difficult, in my opinion, than in the US. Having a body that can help with competition organization would be great. Should they chose a path that separates themselves from the WCA, I would find that unfortunate, but that's a choice they are free to make. 

Regardless of the public statements about the CCA, though, I think it's important to note that organizers of WCA competitions have already privately received threats to not host WCA competitions. This I find unacceptable, and a reason to suspect the intentions of the CCA. 

Had the CCA started under other conditions, I would have fully supported it. However, the actions and motivations of some of the people involved leave me skeptical. If those people involved truly had the best interests of the Chinese cubing community at heart, the situation likely wouldn't have evolved as it has. 

For those people that say three years or even one year is too long, realize that any ban would likely have the same result, regardless of length. Haiyan has already said that he will not apologize and that he doesn't intend to return to WCA competitions regardless of the ban period. Some two months ago, the situation was "apologize and there will be no ban." Haiyan was given many chances, the result now is due to his own actions, his own choosing. 

For people questioning the legitimacy of CCA competitions and records, I do hope that these competitions will be held fairly. Many of the people involved are friends of mine, and I hope that they really just want to hold fair competitions making a fun environment for everyone involved. 
I don't doubt Haiyan's incredible speed with BLD. I don't doubt his current world record. I do, however, doubt his honesty with regard to establishing the CCA as a record-holding organization, and his importance within. 

In comparing this situation with that of 2007, I can understand a feeling that Haiyan has had less of an impact. While this situation doesn't affect records or competition standings, and from an outside perspective it may look much less significant, there was much more personal involvement in what happened. Realize that Haiyan's actions led a couple people to quit cubing. Realize that his actions have ruined friendships in his push to create a split between himself and the WCA. In addition to threats made, his actions made a much bigger impact on those directly involved than what happened in 2007. 

This has been, all along, an issue of personal choice. Haiyan chose not to accept the schedules prepared by competition organizers. He chose to respond aggressively. He chose to disrupt competitions. He chose to take up a microphone and go off on a complaining tirade while others were competing. He chose not to apologize. He chose to cause further disruptions after being told it would lead to a ban. He chose to ignore the temporary ban. He chose to threaten to ruin a competition for over seventy other competitors rather than acknowledge the WCA's decision. 

In the end, an individual's actions are their own decision, and they must take responsibility for any consequences. 

EDIT: Given that I wasn't present at the television show in question, it's best to not rely on the statements of others. I cannot confirm whether what I said is true or not. If true, someone who knows more say can as much; if not true, I apologize to Haiyan.


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## Tim Major (Aug 31, 2010)

keyan said:


> For those people that say three years or even one year is too long, realize that any ban would likely have the same result, regardless of length. Haiyan has already said that he will not apologize and that he doesn't intend to return to WCA competitions regardless of the ban period. Some two months ago, the situation was "apologize and there will be no ban." Haiyan was given many chances, the result now is due to his own actions, his own choosing.
> 
> For people questioning the legitimacy of CCA competitions and records, I do hope that these competitions will be held fairly. Many of the people involved are friends of mine, and I hope that they really just want to hold fair competitions making a fun environment for everyone involved. However, I think it's worth noting that Haiyan appeared on a Guiness-style TV show in early 2009 and solved, claiming a new BLD world record. It wasn't until afterward that an audience member revealed that after several DNFs, he was given a scramble to practice before solving. I am aware of the pressures of television, and that producers can have unreasonable demands, but I think this is worth considering relative to the current situation. I don't doubt Haiyan's incredible speed with BLD. I don't doubt his current world record. I do, however, doubt his honesty with regard to establishing the CCA as a record-holding organization, and his importance within.



... O_O

What is this... man that completely changes EVERYTHING. I can't believe he'd do that. No ban if he apologized? And also the 2nd part.


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## jiggy (Aug 31, 2010)

What I found particularly relevant was this:


keyan said:


> For those people that say three years or even one year is too long, realize that any ban would likely have the same result, regardless of length. *Haiyan has already said that he will not apologize and that he doesn't intend to return to WCA competitions regardless of the ban period*. Some two months ago, the situation was "apologize and there will be no ban." Haiyan was given many chances, the result now is due to his own actions, his own choosing.


Haiyan does not intend to return to competitions, yet has previously made it clear that his main motivation is to continue breaking records.

=>The CCA are going to claim their records as legitimate


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## moogra (Aug 31, 2010)

Disregarding the seriousness of this, I'm curious about how he was "threatening" the WCA officials. Does he run some sort of Rubik's cube mafia or something? I'm pretty sure he can't do anything. Even though he has all sorts of fame, I don't think others will agree with things like a fistfight.


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## joelwong (Aug 31, 2010)

oh. ville has a good chance of breaking WRs without haiyan but still 1 year is quite harsh.


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## Dene (Aug 31, 2010)

joelwong said:


> oh. ville has a good chance of breaking WRs without haiyan but still 1 year is quite harsh.



Doesn't make a difference. Ville and Haiyan are at very similar speeds. It's just that Ville only goes to like 1 competition a year or something  .


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## deadalnix (Aug 31, 2010)

Dene said:


> joelwong said:
> 
> 
> > oh. ville has a good chance of breaking WRs without haiyan but still 1 year is quite harsh.
> ...



Haiyan is down to 0 now.


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## coinman (Aug 31, 2010)

I think sports like cubing is good in many ways. One thing i consider as most important is its unification properties. People from al sorts of countries, cultures and religions meet and become friends, both irl and over the internet. Many cubers are young now and in the future this relations can turn out useful in business and other ways. 
Therefore i really think it would be a shame if China go for a cubing community of there own instead of sating in the one the rest of the word is using. The fact that china hade more and more official cubing competitions and cubing sites on the internet at least changed my view of how hard restrictions the country have, it felt more open. 
And i also wonder why any Chinese cuber at al would rather enter a CCA then a WCA competition, don't they want there times to be official WR if thy are that good? 

About Haiyan being banned for at least a year, i think this might be right if he made people quit cubing due to threats. But maybe a strong warning cud have sufficed as a first step. Like if he ever do something like this again he would be banned.


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## r_517 (Aug 31, 2010)

coinman said:


> About Haiyan being banned for at least a year, i think this might be right if he made people quit cubing due to threats. But maybe a strong warning cud have sufficed as a first step. Like if he ever do something like this again he would be banned.



this has happened numerous times on different comps since two years ago. A number of cubers and organisers quitted cubing because of his endless harassment. 

besides, when telling him that if he would make an apology before August, no punishment would be made, he refused.


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## keyan (Aug 31, 2010)

coinman said:


> About Haiyan being banned for at least a year, i think this might be right if he made people quit cubing due to threats. But maybe a strong warning cud have sufficed as a first step. Like if he ever do something like this again he would be banned.





> He chose not to apologize. He chose to cause further disruptions after being told it would lead to a ban.


Much more has gone on that what you see posted on the WCA site.


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## Zubon (Aug 31, 2010)

keyan said:


> Much more has gone on that what you see posted on the WCA site.




If this is the case, I think maybe the WCA should release all of the information. This whole issue is causing a lot of stress in the cubing community with people making up their minds about whose side they want to be on.

For the sake of cubing, the WCA should make public exactly all the reasons why he has been banned.


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## jiggy (Aug 31, 2010)

Zubon said:


> keyan said:
> 
> 
> > Much more has gone on that what you see posted on the WCA site.
> ...





> Whereas the WCA prefers transparency in its operations, the WCA respects the IAC's decision not to release the gathered evidence. The release of identities and information would likely increase the pressure by Mr. Zhuang against people who have cooperated with this process. The WCA board would like to thank the IAC and the delegates and competition organizers from China for the work that they have put into this process.


Witnesses must be able to give fair testimony, without fear of persecution from either side. It's unfortunate that we, as bystanders, cannot see more of the evidence in this trial, but I understand and respect the reasons this can't be so.


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## nck (Aug 31, 2010)

keyan said:


> coinman said:
> 
> 
> > About Haiyan being banned for at least a year, i think this might be right if he made people quit cubing due to threats. But maybe a strong warning cud have sufficed as a first step. Like if he ever do something like this again he would be banned.
> ...



It will be better if WCA posts up more information.
At speedsolving.com, many people's only source of information is from what you and some other dude from mf8 posts. Although Haiyan tries to post his side of the story, it's not of much use when people start calling him a liar. I do believe that most of the information we are getting here is biased.

Personally I'm really sick of seeing some people, not mentioning names, repeatedly posts highly subjective and derogatory comments about Haiyan. it seriously gave me the impression that they have had personal affairs with Haiyan, and this is just an opportunity to get rid of him.

This matter could well be peacefully resolved instead of escalating to what we have now. Although it's true that Haiyan had definitely done the wrong things, I think it's fair to say what we are seeing now is exaggerated version of what really happened. I trust you and respect you for what you did, however, since you're, too, directly involved in this matter, what you have said might well be biased because of your own emotions. (I'm not saying you would do this deliberate). 

From what I've seen , Haiyan is hell of a hot tempered guy. It was a heated moment and blahblah and he said things he should not have said. However, it is that necessary to take his 'threats of physical violence' literally? Would you really think that he will kill you because you didn't let him cube?

Furthermore, although it's pretty evident that he is pissed about not being the delegate, I don't think it's relevant because we should be judging on what he has done and not what he intended to do. 

Because there is a degree of truth in both sides of the story, we shouldn't really flood speedsolving.com with just negative information. It's pretty much pointless if everyone here hates Haiyan because of what some people (not you) said, and people at mf8 supports him for their own reasons.

Finally, people are banned from forums for a reason. At this point we should try to resolve this problem peacefully rather than try to escalate it even further.

Putting up more information will let people see a larger picture of this matter, however, I do understand the problems with it. I can't influence what the WCA decides to do, but I hope it will turn out good.


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## Tim Reynolds (Aug 31, 2010)

Zubon said:


> keyan said:
> 
> 
> > Much more has gone on that what you see posted on the WCA site.
> ...



It doesn't matter what side you choose to be on. The public opinion in this situation should have no effect on what actions are taken against Haiyan. If there's threats being made, and the WCA needs to protect those individuals who gave evidence, then that absolutely trumps the need of individual cubers who are uninvolved to decide whether they like the WCA or the CCA better. Remember that evidence was collected under the promise of confidentiality. Most of the people who spoke against Haiyan only did so because they knew their identity would be protected.


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## prostx23 (Aug 31, 2010)

I think the questions are...

What type of threats were being made? Was is as simple as "You're gonna have that second round of BLD of I'm gonna f**k you up!", or are we talking death threats? And then the second question is...how capable was he to carry these threats out? To me, based only on what I've read here, this sounds like Haiyan was behaving like a schoolyard bully. In some cases the bark is much worse than the bite (he doesn't look very intimidating). Or was it? Eiither way, even if all his threats were empty, you still can't have some one bullying, throwing their weight around or just being a general disruption during these contests. So what do you do?

Mike


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## tke444 (Aug 31, 2010)

prostx23 said:


> I think the questions are...
> 
> What type of threats were being made? Was is as simple as "You're gonna have that second round of BLD of I'm gonna f**k you up!", or are we talking death threats? And then the second question is...how capable was he to carry these threats out? To me, based only on what I've read here, this sounds like Haiyan was behaving like a schoolyard bully. In some cases the bark is much worse than the bite (he doesn't look very intimidating). Or was it? Eiither way, even if all his threats were empty, you still can't have some one bullying, throwing their weight around or just being a general disruption during these contests. So what do you do?
> 
> Mike


What would i do? "What now? Lemme tell you what now. I'm gonna call up a couple a hard, pipe-hittin' ******* and go to work on the holmes here with a pair a pliars and a blowtorch. You hear me talkin' Hillbilly Boy? I ain't through with you by a da*** sight. I'm gonna get medieval on your a**." Yeah its a stupid quote, I thought maybe we could use a little laughter to bring our stress levels down.


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## qqwref (Aug 31, 2010)

Tim Reynolds said:


> It doesn't matter what side you choose to be on. The public opinion in this situation should have no effect on what actions are taken against Haiyan. If there's threats being made, and the WCA needs to protect those individuals who gave evidence, then that absolutely trumps the need of individual cubers who are uninvolved to decide whether they like the WCA or the CCA better. Remember that evidence was collected under the promise of confidentiality. Most of the people who spoke against Haiyan only did so because they knew their identity would be protected.



1) It would be possible to release most of the evidence in a form which gives more information without releasing names. I'm sure that some of the evidence (such as records of email or verbal exchanges) would clearly point to a specific person, but it would be no problem to conceal the source of a 3rd party interpretation (NOT one of the top people on each side) of what happened at a competition. I don't expect the WCA to do all this work (they're not a journalistic agency), I'm just saying that it wouldn't be impossible to produce some of the evidence without violating identity protections.

2) Isn't it possible that, if enough of the public opinion is against the WCA's decision, people may trust the WCA's top-level organization less?


Anyway, I wonder: does this decision do anything about Haiyan *himself*? If what everyone is saying against Haiyan is true, wouldn't a ban do nothing but prevent him from being at WCA competitions? A ban does not stop him from moderating mf8, harassing competition organizers or other cubers, influencing cube factories, etc. So I don't see how this fixes the situation; maybe it just makes it worse. I don't know.


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## Tyson (Aug 31, 2010)

jms_gears1 said:


> teller said:
> 
> 
> > jms_gears1 said:
> ...



Okay, sorry... I feel I need to clarify that one sentence that everyone is picking up on right now. Yes, you do start something when you're not happy of what's in existence. Sorry, what I meant to say was that, you can start whatever you want. But if you start something because you're throwing a hissy-fit about it, it raises suspicion that you're only doing things for personal gain. The difference here is that I feel there really is no issue between Haiyan and the WCA. Any shortcomings that the WCA had in China were largely created by himself. The lack of delegates in China is a result of people not wanting to be delegates because they simply don't want to deal with threats and intimidation from Haiyan.

In other words, he really has no good reason to do something else other than for reasons he's manufactured himself. If there were serious problems with the WCA, then I would find good reason for him to form his own group. But until then, I'm just sitting here puzzled as to why he's formed the CCA. What exactly is wrong with the WCA in China that he has to go around and tell WCA organizers not to organize competitions, call them up repeatedly at work, at home during the night, and just being a nuisance?

Is this about forming a group to promote cubing in China? I thought that's what the WCA delegates were trying to do. Or is this a group about control and power?

Go ahead... if Haiyan would come out here and start listing reasons that the WCA is failing the Chinese cubing community, I would be most gracious.

It's okay, Haiyan has a NUMBER ONE FAN YAY!


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## Bryan (Aug 31, 2010)

qqwref said:


> Anyway, I wonder: does this decision do anything about Haiyan *himself*? If what everyone is saying against Haiyan is true, wouldn't a ban do nothing but prevent him from being at WCA competitions? A ban does not stop him from moderating mf8, harassing competition organizers or other cubers, influencing cube factories, etc. So I don't see how this fixes the situation; maybe it just makes it worse. I don't know.



The WCA has no control over mf8, cube factories, etc.


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## Erik (Aug 31, 2010)

This thread should be closed, the last posts don't contribute anything to the topic. Besides this, it's really pointless to discuss this with the whole forum. More than enough people who don't have anything to do with this subject have involved themselves IMHO.


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## cmhardw (Aug 31, 2010)

Please move the discussion of a potential BLD rule change (best of 3 vs. best of 5) to another thread, and do not post replies following that topic in this thread any longer.

Thanks,
Chris


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## Sakarie (Aug 31, 2010)

nck said:


> If this is the case, I think maybe the WCA should release all of the information. This whole issue is causing a lot of stress in the cubing community with people making up their minds about whose side they want to be on.
> 
> For the sake of cubing, the WCA should make public exactly all the reasons why he has been banned.



You don't know all the information, so how can you say that you know best how to handle it?


tke444 said:


> What would i do? "What now? Lemme tell you what now. I'm gonna call up a couple a hard, pipe-hittin' ******* and go to work on the holmes here with a pair a pliars and a blowtorch. You hear me talkin' Hillbilly Boy? I ain't through with you by a da*** sight. I'm gonna get medieval on your a**." Yeah its a stupid quote, I thought maybe we could use a little laughter to bring our stress levels down.



Yeah, that was.. "hilarius".

The most important thing now is to make sure that we do are best to

1) NOT let anyone ban WCA from China. 
2) NOT let Haiyan or the people supporting him spread false rumors about the evil WCA.
3) Reach out a big hand for a dialog with the chinese cubers, to make CCA a positive thing, and not a concurrent to WCA.

Is there any way we could let the governments sports-people in China know that a lot of people from a lot of countries (incl. China) supports WCA to stay in China? Would a name list do any good? 

I'm so NOT into Chinese politics.


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## prostx23 (Aug 31, 2010)

I'm still left wondering, what type of threats were these? I'm gonna beat you up? I'm gonna Murder you? I understand that some privacy needs to be kept to protect the innocent, but the info on "threats" made by Haiyan is very vague? I made the analogy of the schoolyard bully in a previous post for this reason. Without a bit more specificity, is this an overreaction, or over sensitivity to someone who s simply a bully? If Haiyan simply threatened to slap someone around but never followed through, and had no intention to. Isn't even 1 year a bit harsh of a punishment? Perhaps not since I don't know anything other than what has been stated here.

And, if this all comes down to Haiyan simply wanting an extra round of BLD, I assume this was known by the WCA for some time before things got out of hand, was there a reason why this could not possibly have been done or planned for ahead of time. If for no other reason than to give the squeaky wheel the oil. I know, if you start to appease one then others might follow. I just can't fathom how something like this can get so out of control over one guy wanting an extra round of competition. One man has been suspended for three years and now there is a possibility of an entire country seperating it's self from official competition. What's done is done, hopefully some thought is going into how to prevent something like this from ever happening again. 

Mike


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## Bryan (Aug 31, 2010)

prostx23 said:


> I'm still left wondering, what type of threats were these? I'm gonna beat you up? I'm gonna Murder you? I understand that some privacy needs to be kept to protect the innocent, but the info on "threats" made by Haiyan is very vague?


There are other possible threats too, like, "I'm going to make your life a living hell", or "I will ensure you'll never hold a competition again", etc. Not every threat is physical violence or a specific task defined.



prostx23 said:


> And, if this all comes down to Haiyan simply wanting an extra round of BLD, I assume this was known by the WCA for some time before things got out of hand, was there a reason why this could not possibly have been done or planned for ahead of time. If for no other reason than to give the squeaky wheel the oil.



You're suggesting the WCA require all Chinese competitions to hold a mandatory 2 rounds of BLD? I'm just restating it so you know how it sounds.


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## amostay2004 (Aug 31, 2010)

Bryan said:


> prostx23 said:
> 
> 
> > I'm still left wondering, what type of threats were these? I'm gonna beat you up? I'm gonna Murder you? I understand that some privacy needs to be kept to protect the innocent, but the info on "threats" made by Haiyan is very vague?
> ...



I'm sure what he meant was, how serious and possible were these threats? Did he say it in a totally serious manner and did he have the possibility to exercise these threats? Someone stated earlier that he is probably connected to people with authority so it is probably possible, and is thus a serious offense if he meant what he said.

Then again, I can't help but think how ridiculous this sounds. If he has the power and resources to threaten people so seriously you'd think he has the resources to simply go to more comps for more rounds of BLD, or organise his own comp and invite a WCA delegate so he can have 3 rounds of BLD or whatever.


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## Dene (Aug 31, 2010)

prostx23 said:


> I'm still left wondering, what type of threats were these? I'm gonna beat you up? I'm gonna Murder you? I understand that some privacy needs to be kept to protect the innocent, but the info on "threats" made by Haiyan is very vague? I made the analogy of the schoolyard bully in a previous post for this reason. Without a bit more specificity, is this an overreaction, or over sensitivity to someone who s simply a bully? If Haiyan simply threatened to slap someone around but never followed through, and had no intention to. Isn't even 1 year a bit harsh of a punishment? Perhaps not since I don't know anything other than what has been stated here.
> 
> And, if this all comes down to Haiyan simply wanting an extra round of BLD, I assume this was known by the WCA for some time before things got out of hand, was there a reason why this could not possibly have been done or planned for ahead of time. If for no other reason than to give the squeaky wheel the oil. I know, if you start to appease one then others might follow. I just can't fathom how something like this can get so out of control over one guy wanting an extra round of competition. One man has been suspended for three years and now there is a possibility of an entire country seperating it's self from official competition. What's done is done, hopefully some thought is going into how to prevent something like this from ever happening again.
> 
> Mike



You, like many other people around at the moment, have completely failed to even bother to read up about this entire issue. There has been a plethora of information posted already revealing the history of this issue. 

I urge everyone to stop making posts like "this is a bit harsh", or "he only made a small threat? This doesn't deserve a 1 year ban", because this is not a small issue, it has been recurrent for what appears to around 2 years. 

It's getting really annoying.


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## Kirjava (Aug 31, 2010)

Dene said:


> You, like many other people around at the moment, have completely failed to even bother to read up about this entire issue. There has been a plethora of information posted already revealing the history of this issue.
> 
> I urge everyone to stop making posts like "this is a bit harsh", or "he only made a small threat? This doesn't deserve a 1 year ban", because this is not a small issue, it has been recurrent for what appears to around 2 years.
> 
> It's getting really annoying.




Many of the people who think this is harsh know the details of what happened.


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## prostx23 (Sep 1, 2010)

Dene said:


> prostx23 said:
> 
> 
> > I'm still left wondering, what type of threats were these? I'm gonna beat you up? I'm gonna Murder you? I understand that some privacy needs to be kept to protect the innocent, but the info on "threats" made by Haiyan is very vague? I made the analogy of the schoolyard bully in a previous post for this reason. Without a bit more specificity, is this an overreaction, or over sensitivity to someone who s simply a bully? If Haiyan simply threatened to slap someone around but never followed through, and had no intention to. Isn't even 1 year a bit harsh of a punishment? *Perhaps not since I don't know anything other than what has been stated here*.
> ...



Please read more carefully. I've read this thread and every other thread related to this incident on this site from beginning to end, and most of the threads and links provided within these threads, so you'd be incorrect in stating I'm not well read on the subject. I've based my assertion (more of a question than an assertion really) based on that very limited information. If you have more specifics than what has been previously discussed I'd be happy to listen. I absolutely do not know all the facts (as most of the specifics are only known to those involved), merely that what has been written thus far portrays Haiyan as a bully, not necessarily a psychopath.

Mike


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## prostx23 (Sep 1, 2010)

Bryan said:


> prostx23 said:
> 
> 
> > I'm still left wondering, what type of threats were these? I'm gonna beat you up? I'm gonna Murder you? I understand that some privacy needs to be kept to protect the innocent, but the info on "threats" made by Haiyan is very vague?
> ...



*Not entirely...but possibly. I'm at a loss to believe some sort of compromise could not have been reached by both parties early on to prevent what we now have...perhaps the WCA even appeasing one cranky cuber just to keep the peace. Exactly how was this allowed to get so far out of hand that a cuber is banned for 3 years. Perhaps some (if even just a little) fault lies with the WCA. Unless, of course, that Haiyan is a complete wack-a-doo, and no amount of reasoning or compromise could have have made him happy...that's where I'm failing to under stand this. 

Mike*


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## riffz (Sep 1, 2010)

Bryan said:


> qqwref said:
> 
> 
> > Anyway, I wonder: does this decision do anything about Haiyan *himself*? If what everyone is saying against Haiyan is true, wouldn't a ban do nothing but prevent him from being at WCA competitions? A ban does not stop him from moderating mf8, harassing competition organizers or other cubers, influencing cube factories, etc. So I don't see how this fixes the situation; maybe it just makes it worse. I don't know.
> ...



...

You're missing his point.


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## Tyson (Sep 1, 2010)

riffz said:


> Bryan said:
> 
> 
> > qqwref said:
> ...



Well, what can the WCA do? The WCA is really just a figment in our collective imagination. There's nothing the WCA can do regarding mf8, or the harassment of organizers. But based on his behavior, he is no longer welcome at WCA events.

In terms of harassment of organizers and delegates, there is nothing the WCA can do. Really, it's up to local law enforcement at this point. So I don't think Bryan has missed the point. The simple reality is that the WCA can only do so much, and therefore, it only tries to do as much as it should. Hence, we won't even try to interfere with any of Haiyan's personal business, example: the CCA.

The only thing the WCA has control over is the WCA. All I can say is that if US Citizens are threatened abroad, I'd say at this point, it's time to go to the US Consulate and understand the local laws and regulations concerning things of this nature. But that's really the full extent of the statement... someone who behaves the way he does is no longer welcome at a WCA event, and we think everyone will benefit from his absence in WCA events at least for the near future.

If harassment continues, I can only urge whoever is affected to understand the local laws and the process of how these things are treated. This is in the same way that I can't force anyone to return prize money.

The WCA is really just a figment of the collective community's imagination. The records only have legitimacy because everyone gives it legitimacy.


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## prostx23 (Sep 1, 2010)

Tyson said:


> In terms of harassment of organizers and delegates, there is nothing the WCA can do. Really, *it's up to local law enforcement at this point*. So I don't think Bryan has missed the point. The simple reality is that the WCA can only do so much, and therefore, it only tries to do as much as it should. Hence, we won't even try to interfere with any of Haiyan's personal business, example: the CCA.



This is more or less what I was looking for. Since this was/is so bad that it rises to the level of needing the help of law enforcement, then the punishment seems just. I would assume that steps have/are being taken to try to prevent something like this from happening again?

Mike


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## [email protected] (Sep 1, 2010)

Dene said:


> You, like many other people around at the moment, have completely failed to even bother to read up about this entire issue. There has been a plethora of information posted already revealing the history of this issue.
> 
> I urge everyone to stop making posts like "this is a bit harsh", or "he only made a small threat? This doesn't deserve a 1 year ban", because this is not a small issue, it has been recurrent for what appears to around 2 years.
> 
> It's getting really annoying.



Well, i read all the posts in this thread. There are many opinions as many people are. I think you fail to have *just* a little tolerance with others than think different . If it´s annoying just dont read anymore


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## Cielo (Sep 1, 2010)

r_517 said:


> nitrocan said:
> 
> 
> > 1. How exactly can he make WCA illegal in China?
> ...



Can't see your fb, coz 2...


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## penfold1992 (Sep 1, 2010)

1 year is pretty harsh however unless he travels around a lot he wont likely miss much until he apologises...
it doesnt matter wether he thinks that he did wrong or not. he should apologise to those who feel threatened at least.


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## Dene (Sep 1, 2010)

prostx23 said:


> Please read more carefully. I've read this thread and every other thread related to this incident on this site from beginning to end, and most of the threads and links provided within these threads, so you'd be incorrect in stating I'm not well read on the subject. I've based my assertion (more of a question than an assertion really) based on that very limited information. If you have more specifics than what has been previously discussed I'd be happy to listen. I absolutely do not know all the facts (as most of the specifics are only known to those involved), merely that what has been written thus far portrays Haiyan as a bully, not necessarily a psychopath.
> 
> Mike



You said, and I quote "Without a bit more specificity, is this an overreaction, or over sensitivity to someone who s simply a bully? If Haiyan simply threatened to slap someone around but never followed through, and had no intention to. Isn't even 1 year a bit harsh of a punishment?", plus some more stuff. You make it clear that you think the only thing Haiyan has done is to possibly "threaten" someone. But this is only the tip of the iceberg. Did you even read this post?


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## su466120534 (Sep 1, 2010)

I wanna say: The punishment of Mr Zhuang has nothing to do with CCA, 
he is not the creator of CCA..


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## Sakarie (Sep 1, 2010)

su466120534 said:


> I wanma say: The punishment of Mr Zhuang has nothing to do with CCA,
> he is not the creator of CCA..



Please tell us more!

(And to everyone, please translate when quoting something in chinese.. Google translate ain't the best)


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## prostx23 (Sep 1, 2010)

Dene said:


> prostx23 said:
> 
> 
> > Please read more carefully. I've read this thread and every other thread related to this incident on this site from beginning to end, and most of the threads and links provided within these threads, so you'd be incorrect in stating I'm not well read on the subject. I've based my assertion (more of a question than an assertion really) based on that very limited information. If you have more specifics than what has been previously discussed I'd be happy to listen. I absolutely do not know all the facts (as most of the specifics are only known to those involved), merely that what has been written thus far portrays Haiyan as a bully, not necessarily a psychopath.
> ...



I'm reading this post for the second time, and beyond mentioning some threats of violence, this *still* is vague as to what specifically the threats were. This post you directed me to makes Haiyan sound like a bully or a jerk, *but not necessarily someone who needs to be banned for 3 years*. I still wonder if there wasn't more that could have been done by the WCA to chill this situation out before it got out of hand. It seems here that the fault lies primarily on Haiyans shoulders. He's clearly immature. But does the WCA not bear at least a little of the responsibility for letting this get to the point that one of their top flight cubers is now gone for three years and now we may see an entire country's cubers remove themselves from official competition, maybe permanently. That's f**cked up.

Mike

Edit: Just to be more clear on what I'm missing here, He doesn't get his extra round of blindfold at the comps, he throws a fit and disrupts the competitions. He makes some calls an lays a few threats of violence on some dudes... a smacck to the chops, a car bomb, a mafia style hit? What exactly is he saying here? And... so what...perhaps some folks instead of cowering in the corner when he's making those threats (not literally but it's sort of the impression that is left by the info given) should have, come to a compromise early on, or stood up to him in a like fashion. It seems to me that this shouldn't have gotten so far out of hand.


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## deadalnix (Sep 1, 2010)

He was proposed to apologize and then, get no sanction. He refused. Then, later, he was proposed to apologize (again) to reduce the sentence from 3 years to 1 year.

If Haiyan wanted to be cooperative, he could end this without getting any penality. He choose the situation he is currently in.

Remeber that when saying this is harsh. This is 100% due to Haiyan choice that this ends up that way.


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## prostx23 (Sep 1, 2010)

deadalnix said:


> He was proposed to apologize and then, get no sanction. He refused. Then, later, he was proposed to apologize (again) to reduce the sentence from 3 years to 1 year.
> 
> If Haiyan wanted to be cooperative, he could end this without getting any penality. He choose the situation he is currently in.
> 
> Remeber that when saying this is harsh. This is 100% due to Haiyan choice that this ends up that way.



You're right, but wasn't there a way to prevent this? There is another thread now discussing possible changes (only proposals of course) and I haven't checked in on it today but as of yesterday it was a reasonable frendly discussion. Was it not possible early on to have a similar discussion with Haiyan? Or was it simply a case of Haiyan saying "my way or else?" If so that's a shame.

Mike


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## Howardw (Sep 1, 2010)

From what I've been seeing it seems that the some of the Chinese cubers are starting to feel like they're being controlled against their will by WCA.
Of course this was sparked by Hai Yan's banning.

quote:太好了..不用看外国人的脸色了..
说真的..我们中国那么多人才..
干嘛要受外国人控制啊..
会说普通话又怎样..?
"非我族类,其心必异"..
It means: We don't need WCA, we have a lot of support in China. Why do we let foreigners control us? And the one in quotations sort of means:
People from other countries have different intentions.


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## nck (Sep 1, 2010)

Howardw said:


> From what I've been seeing it seems that the some of the Chinese cubers are starting to feel like they're being controlled against their will by WCA.
> Of course this was sparked by Hai Yan's banning.
> 
> quote:太好了..不用看外国人的脸色了..
> ...



You forgot this line.

I believe it's directly addressing keyan.


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## Howardw (Sep 1, 2010)

nck said:


> Howardw said:
> 
> 
> > From what I've been seeing it seems that the some of the Chinese cubers are starting to feel like they're being controlled against their will by WCA.
> ...



Keyan?


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## r_517 (Sep 1, 2010)

prostx23 said:


> deadalnix said:
> 
> 
> > He was proposed to apologize and then, get no sanction. He refused. Then, later, he was proposed to apologize (again) to reduce the sentence from 3 years to 1 year.
> ...



it has been almost two years since he asked for a second round and harassed other delegates to make him the delegate, like "if u don't add me a second round i'll cancel the sponsorship" or smash the cube onto the ground while others still BLD-ing or just what most of u had known that he grabbed the microphone and abuse the organiser and delegate publicly while others were still competing. however even then, these stuff still remained private coz the delegates wanted to talk with him. but he just refused, and continued his abusing by spreading fake evidence(some were shown in my fb) and rumors like "the delegate asked him for money", "we *all* hate some delegate. we *all* know that he corrupts" etc.






Howardw said:


> nck said:
> 
> 
> > Howardw said:
> ...


the delegate Chris Krueger, whose Chinese name is Ke Yan.


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## PatrickJameson (Sep 1, 2010)

Alright, this thread is doing nothing but starting rumors and speculation. Whether some are true or not we obviously don't know enough for sure to judge the actions of Haiyan and the WCA through this situation. 

If you have any new information regarding this case you can email Tyson. His email can be found on this page: http://www.worldcubeassociation.org/node/12

If Tyson or anyone else directly involved has anything that will absolutely confirm or disprove all of the allegations put upon Haiyan they can post it here or on the WCA forum for us to eventually find.

For Haiyan, if you have anything to say or want something cleared up, email Tyson. Do not post it on this site. It will do nothing to help your cause.


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